Silly Transformers question.
Posted by Hawkman on November 17, 2000 at 17:22:13:

Okay...here we go.  In like issue #3 or so of the original 
Transformers mini-series, Spider-Man made a guest appearance.  
This would suggest that Marvel shares a universe with the 
Transformers.  Since GI-Joe likewise crossed over with the 
Transformers the same could be said about that title.  As 
such...should both titles be counted as canon continuity or 
should we just regard issue #3 as a 'Spider-Man from an alternate 
dimension' appearance.  The latter would certainly be easier 
since it doesn't seem likely that either T-former or GI-Joe 
could possibly function without notice from SHIELD or the 
Avengers or something.  Any thoughts??? (Apologies if this 
subject has already been broached.)  

			*	*	*

Re: Silly Transformers question.
Posted by Jeph! on November 17, 2000 at 20:08:40:
In Reply to: Silly Transformers question.
posted by Hawkman on November 17, 2000 at 17:22:13:

: Okay...In issue #3 or so of Transformers, Spider-Man made a 
guest appearance.  This would suggest that Marvel shares a 
universe with the Transformers.  Since GI-Joe likewise crossed 
over with the Transformers the same could be said about that 
title...should both titles be counted as canon continuity.  it 
doesn't seem likely that either T-former or GI-Joe could possibly 
function without notice from SHIELD or the Avengers or something.  
Any thoughts???

Hey, neat!  I know this one!

Actually, there are a few more crossovers than that ... Nick 
Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, and Joe Robertson also appear in that issue, 
and Fury's dialogue suggests the presence of a SHIELD organization 
and Godzilla as well (yes, the Marvel Universe has a Godzilla 
too ... sad, isn't it?).  Spider-Man has his alien costume in that 
issue, which suggests the existence of the Beyonder and the Secret 
Wars events.  Also, in issue #8, Ratchet travels to the Savage 
Land.  Meanwhile in Secret Wars II #3, Circuit Breaker, a TF 
character, appears.  The evidence seems to point to a conjoined 
universe...

However, in the Transformers: Generation 2 series, the Decepticons 
pretty near destroy the planet earth, and San Fransisco is wiped 
off the map.  One would think the Marvel Universe would have noticed 
if that occured ... and no Marvel heroes turned out to fight the 
Deceps, merely GIJoe and the Autobots.

Short answer?  They're in different universes.  Long answer?  
According to the TransMasters UK mailing list, which I'm on, 
the two universes are separate -- except that the Spidey in TF 
#3 has to be the Marvel Spidey, mainly because of the alien 
costume.  (Opinions differ -- many on the list would prefer that 
it be a TF-U Spidey that retired or died of old age, but the 
latest theory that explains most everything is as follows:)  The 
Beyonder is singular in the omniverse -- the only earth that he 
visited, and that experienced a Secret Wars event, was Marvel 
Earth 616.  The TFs timeline split off from the Marvel one over 
four million years ago, so the chances of their Spidey running 
into a sequence of events that gave him an alien costume without 
the Beyonder's help are pretty slim.  Therefore, it's easiest to 
consider all Marvel-TF crossovers as caused by the deus ex machina 
of the Beyonder's meddling, from accidentally bleeding TF Universe 
TV reports to the Marvel Universe (SHIELD, the Bugle), to 
transposing Spidey and Circuit Breaker for a brief while.  On the 
topic of the Savage Land, however, most agree that the TF U's 
Savage Land was created by the TF-Universe version of the aliens 
that created the Marvel Savage Land.

They've got an answer for everything. :)   But basically, it 
comes down to this:  they consider Spidey's appearance as Marvel 
canon (I think), but the TF/GIJoe universe remains separate from 
the Marvel U.  As for what the MCP board thinks about that Spidey 
appearance?  It probably won't be thought of as canonical, and 
neither was Circuit Breaker's in SWII#3.

Hope that helps ... or at least, didn't confuse too badly...

	-Jeph!

please, don't tempt me to archive the TFs series ... I'd do it 
in a hot minute.  US and UK both.

			*	*	*

Re: Silly Transformers question.
Posted by Paul Eke (aka TK-421) on November 22, 2000 at 08:53:26:

In Reply to: Re: Silly Transformers question.
posted by Jeph! on November 17, 2000 at 20:08:40:

And then there's Death's Head, who first appeared in transformers 
and has had time/dimension spanning adventures in and out of the 
main MU.  He has encountered, amongst others, teh Doctor (from 
Doctor Who), the Fantastic Four (at least twice), She-Hulk, Iron 
Man of 2020.  And that's not counting Death's Head II...

			*	*	*

Re: Silly Transformers question.
Posted by Andy Holcombe on January 24, 2001 at 18:26:45:
In Reply to: Re: Silly Transformers question.
posted by Jeph! on November 17, 2000 at 20:08:40:

I think that in the letters pages of either G.I. Joe (after 
the first crossover) or Transformers that the Spider-Man, Nick 
Fury, Dazzler (on the radio in issue 2, I think), etc. appearances 
were revealed to be alternate versions.

As to the "mainstream" Marvel being the only one with a Beyonder 
event, Quasar mentions a race of Beyonders and there's at least 
one what if dealing with the Secret War.

The Transformers had almost no impact on Earth prior to 1984 which 
was after the Secret War.  If you want to believe in the one 
Beyonder model, then the Marvel Earth has Transformers that 
haven't (and won't) awaken.  Circuit Breaker may have a different 
origin on Marvel Earth or the Beyonder may have brought her over 
for a time.  Given the scope of his/its powers, this is possible.

			*	*	*

Long-awaited reply...silly TF question
Posted by Jeph! on April 07, 2001 at 06:19:51:
In Reply to: Re: Silly Transformers question.
posted by Andy Holcombe on January 24, 2001 at 18:26:45:

: I think that in the letters pages the Spider-Man, Nick Fury, 
Dazzler, etc. appearances were revealed to be alternate versions.

"Revealed", in the letters page?  Ooh, canonical.  ;)

: As to the "mainstream" Marvel being the only one with a Beyonder 
event, Quasar mentions a race of Beyonders and there's at least 
one what if dealing with the Secret War.

...okay, you're right.  A back-up story in the 1990 FF annual, 
dealing with the Beyonder's rebirth as Kosmos, mentions (and 
shows) a level of reality that is home to "the BeyonderS", 
plural.

And, that pretty much trashes my entire argument.  So I'm gonna 
pack it in.

If there's more that one Beyonder, there could conceivably have 
been more than one Secret Wars.  So, the Spidey in TF#3, with 
his SW-alien costume, doesn't have to be "our" Spidey at all.

However, I still think that the Circuit Breaker that appeared 
in SWII #4 was the TF-Universe Circuit Breaker, spirited to the 
Beyonder's presence.  Her back-story is too TF-specific to propose 
the idea of an MU Circuit Breaker.

Okay, I'm done.  TF/G.I.Joe -- contained universe, seperate from 
the mainstream MU.

	-Jeph!
gracious in defeat

			*	*	*

DD/Spiderman #1
Posted by Zef Wagner on November 19, 2000 at 12:28:45:

This is in response to the request for info on Daredevil/
Spider-man #1. 

Characters appearing: Spider-man, Daredevil, Copperhead, 
Stiltman, Gladiator I, Kingpin, and an as-yet unnamed main 
villain that will be revealed in later issues presumebly. 

As far as chronology, this story takes place sometime after 
the current Daredevil arc. Kingpin's condition in this book 
unfortunately spoiled at least part of the ending of Mack's 
current arc in Daredevil, but it shows it must take place after 
DD#16. It may end up being after DD #20 as well, since DD 17-20 
are supposed to take place during the current arc. Anyway, that 
takes care of where Daredevil and the Kingpin should go. Spider-
man could probably go anywhere convenient in the current books, 
since I don't see any mention of any storyline in this book. 
Stiltman and the other villains should just go after their last 
appearances.

--Zef Wagner

			*	*	*

Re: DD/Spiderman #1
Posted by Yellow Claw on November 22, 2000 at 04:16:53:
In Reply to: DD/Spiderman #1
posted by Zef Wagner on November 19, 2000 at 12:28:45:

: This is in response to the request for info on Daredevil/
Spider-man #1. 

: Characters appearing: Spider-man, Daredevil, Copperhead, 
Stiltman, Gladiator I, Kingpin, and an as-yet unnamed main 
villain that will be revealed in later issues presumebly. 

I'm not convined that this is the original Gladiator - he doesn't 
look like Melvin Potter, Potter has long been reformed (then again, 
so has Sandman), and I heard (but can't swear to this) that second 
Gladiator appeared in DD shortly before the end of vol. 1.

Cheers,
YC.

			*	*	*

Re: DD/Spiderman #1
Posted by Prime Eternal on November 22, 2000 at 12:03:57:
In Reply to: DD/Spiderman #1
posted by Zef Wagner on November 19, 2000 at 12:28:45:

: This is in response to the request for info on Daredevil/
Spider-man #1. 

: Characters appearing: Spider-man, Daredevil, Copperhead, 
Stiltman, Gladiator I, Kingpin, and an as-yet unnamed main 
villain that will be revealed in later issues presumebly. 

Which Copperhead would this be? There have been three- one 
from Daredevil, one from Human Fly, and one who was a member 
of the Serpent Society. I'm guessing it's the DD Copperhead, 
but still...

Michael Hoskin

			*	*	*

Re: DD/Spiderman #1
Posted by Beetle on November 24, 2000 at 15:40:17:
In Reply to: Re: DD/Spiderman #1
posted by Prime Eternal on November 22, 2000 at 12:03:57:

: Which Copperhead would this be? There have been three- one 
from Daredevil, one from Human Fly, and one who was a member 
of the Serpent Society. I'm guessing it's the DD Copperhead, 
but still...

Hmmmm I know the one from Daredevil (the first one) and the 
one from Serpent Soceity/Captain America (the third one) but 
I don't think he looks anything like them. I could be wrong but 
either this one is a new one or else he is the one from Human 
Fly (the second one). As I said I could be wrong but I don't 
think he looks anything like the other two.....

Kim "The Beetle" Henckel

			*	*	*

Re: DD/Spiderman #1
Posted by Yellow Claw on November 26, 2000 at 05:55:35:
In Reply to: Re: DD/Spiderman #1
posted by Beetle on November 24, 2000 at 15:40:17:

: : Which Copperhead would this be? There have been three- 
one from Daredevil, one from Human Fly, and one who was a 
member of the Serpent Society. I'm guessing it's the DD 
Copperhead, but still...

: Hmmmm I know the one from Daredevil (the first one) and 
the one from Serpent Soceity/Captain America (the third one) 
but I don't think he looks anything like them. I could be wrong 
but either this one is a new one or else he is the one from 
Human Fly (the second one). As I said I could be wrong but I 
don't think he looks anything like the other two.....

It's the DD one - he's wearing a hood to disguise himself, 
but you'll notice he puts coins over the eyes of the man he 
kills, which is the MO of the DD Copperhead.

Cheers,
YC

			*	*	*

X-men: Black Sun?
Posted by Zef Wagner on November 19, 2000 at 12:34:26:

Will the MCP be covering X-men: Black Sun? It takes place during 
the six-month gap in the X-titles in March 2000 and stars many 
X-characters as well as Belasco and Amanda Sefton as the new 
Magik. The Magik mini-series presumebly takes place soon after. 

			*	*	*

Re: X-men: Black Sun?
Posted by Russ Chappell on November 19, 2000 at 14:42:47:
In Reply to: X-men: Black Sun?
posted by Zef Wagner on November 19, 2000 at 12:34:26:

> Will the MCP be covering X-men: Black Sun? It takes place 
during the six-month gap in the X-titles in March 2000 and 
stars many X-characters as well as Belasco and Amanda Sefton 
as the new Magik. The Magik mini-series presumebly takes place 
soon after. 

Yes, although I don't have the books. If you are anyone else 
wants to contribute, feel welcome.

			*	*	*

Could use a spot of help on Iron Man...
Posted by Russ Chappell</a> on November 19, 2000 at 14:53:21:

Can anyone propose a consistent chronology among New Warriors 9, 
Iron Man 26-30, Avengers 24-30, Captain America 25-28, Peter Parker 
Spider-Man 14-15, Amazing Spider-Man 15, and Fantastic Four 24-27?

Keep in mind the following:

1. Human Torch and Namorita spend Christmas Eve together in the 
epilog of NW 5, and IM 26 occurs on New Year's Eve 1999. I'm 
prepared to accept that one or both of these references is 
topical.

2. Namorita discovers that the FF, including Torch, has joined 
"Doom" (acutally Mr. Fantastic), in the epilog to NW 9.

3. Captain America announces to the Avengers that he's leaving 
them at the end of A 25.

4. Cap is an Avenger in FF 27.

5. Iron Man is wearing his "new" armor in FF 27, and indeed, 
in all of his appearances in the books above (see also Magneto: 
Dark Seduction which occurs sometime after A 30), so they all 
must occur before IM 26-30, with the exception of NW 9, where 
the second flashback (the fight scene) occurs sometime during 
IM 26-30. At some point probably in IM 31 (which I don't have) 
Tony apparently dons an older version of his armor.

Here's the crux of the problem: the world learns about Sue 
Richards' impending marriage to "Doom" in FF 27, where Iron 
Man is wearing his "new" armor. Then the berserk Iron Man (or 
his armor) appears in NW 9. Then Namorita learns of the FF 
joining "Doom".

Here's the chronology as I had it last week, which, while not 
perfect, was serviceable, until Tony Stark went and ditched 
his armor:

nw 5 epilog (xmas eve)
nw 6 late dec
nw 7 late dec
nw 8 late dec
nw 9 pg 3-pg 5 pn 4 (fb 1) late dec
im 26 dec 31
im 27 jan 1
im 28 jan 2
ff 24 (second half) early jan
ff 25 early jan
nw 9 pg 5 pn 5-pg 17 (fb 2) early jan followed immediately by:
nw 9 pg 1-pg 2 early jan followed immediately by:
nw 9 pg 18-22 (end) early jan (namorita discovers torch w/doom)
ff 26 early jan
ff 27 early jan (cap is an avenger)
ff 28 early jan
a 24 early jan
a 25 early jan (cap tells the avengers he's leaving at the end)
a 26 early jan 
ppsm2 14 epilog early jan
asm2 15 early jan
ppsm2 15 early jan
ca 25 early jan
ca 26 early jan
ca 27 early jan
ca 28 early jan
a 27 early jan (cap finishes up with avengers)
a 28 early jan

Obviously, this is all out the window now, but does anyone have 
any ideas?

			*	*	*

Re: Could use a spot of help on Iron Man...
Posted by FlankMcLargehuge on November 26, 2000 at 02:10:36:
In Reply to: Could use a spot of help on Iron Man...
posted by Russ Chappell on November 19, 2000 at 14:53:21:

Woo.  I've tried explaining this several times, and I'm really 
having problems.

Chronology in NW v2 is really messed up.  It doesn't make sense 
for Night Thrasher to spend several months in Seattle looking 
for Iron Fist to warn him about the Hand, when he could just 
pick up the phone; nor does it make sense for him to be looking 
for him at the office of his company, and not find him for another 
two months, which is how the chronology within issues #6-7 reads.  
The series itself is messed up, and trying to apply outside time 
measurements just mucks it up some more.

The end of NW #5 is indeed Christmas Eve, and #9 is when the 
rogue Iron Man armor shows up.  However, it makes no logical 
sense for #9 to take place even within a couple days of New Year's 
Eve, because in NW #7 there are several time-jumps spanning about 
two months all together.

What's more, when Nita watchs the footage of the FF in Latverian 
at the end of NW #9, I didn't get the impression this was the 
first time she was informed of it, nor that it was the first time 
it had been reported on the news.  I was under the impression that 
she initially learned of it in FF #27, and that her reaction in 
NW #9 was more based on the new light it was being put in, regarding 
the Warriors present strained cirumstances.  Nita just seemed pissed 
off, rather than surprised.

So I would say that in chronological order, NW #5 (christmas story) 
would be followed by FF #27 (where Nita learns about Sue and 'Doom' 
and Iron Man is seen in his most high-tech armor), then IM #26-30 
(in which that armor goes rogue), and then NW #9 (where the rogue 
armor attacks the Warriors during its absence in the middle of IM 
#30).  Hope that helps a little.

			*	*	*

Re: Could use a spot of help on Iron Man...
Posted by SKleefeld on November 26, 2000 at 11:57:03:
In Reply to: Could use a spot of help on Iron Man...
posted by Russ Chappell on November 19, 2000 at 14:53:21:

Yeowch. This is a tricky one, isn't it?

OK, before getting into what I think the order is, here's a 
couple things I noticed. 

1) Giant-Man is in the Avengers Mansion wearing the same uniform 
in FF 27 and Avengers 25. By his next appearance in Avengers 27, 
he's gone to a new costume.

2) Cap and Thor are still evidently Avengers in CA 28. Granted, 
they have permanent full access to the Mansion with their founders 
status, but I can't recall Thor ever just "hanging out" at the 
Mansion when he wasn't on the active roster.

3) NW 9 clearly has to occur sometime between IM 29 and 30. The 
appearance of Iron Man in NW 9 is just the empty armor.

4) Plus I kept in mind all of the stuff you mentioned, Russ.

That said, here's my version...

NW 5 (Chrismas Eve)
NW 6 (Nita hasn't found out about Reed/Doom yet)
FF 26
A 24
FF 27 (Giant-Man shows up at the Avengers Mansion to help out 
Stark. Doom/Sue wedding.)
FF 28 (active Avengers go out to battle the FF)
CA 25
CA 26
ASM 15
PPSM 15 (Spidey comments about Doom/Sue wedding having just 
happened)
CA 27 (SHIELD is evidentally busy keeping up with Cap and doesn't 
notice the turmoil from the Spidey/Doom stories)
CA 28, pp 1-5 (Cap and Thor still Avengers)
A 25 (Cap leaves Avengers)
CA 28 pp 6+ (Cap tries to use his leave of absence to work on his 
relationship with Ferarri)
CA 29
CA 30
CA 31 (Sharon Carter takes over SHIELD.)
A 26
A 27 (New Avengers roster. Possibly on New Year's Eve to help 
accentuate a "new beginning" for the team.)
IM 26 (New Year's Eve. Stark's nose broken.)
IM 27 (New Year's Day)
IM 28 
FF 29 (Nita and Torch together. Johnny evidentally playing a 
"Trust me" card. Possibly still New Year's Day.)
NW 7
NW 8 (Nita and Johnny still an item. Justice and Firestar have 
left the Avengers.)
A 28
A 29
A 30 
FF 30 pp 1-17 (FF take up residence in Latveria. Nita presumably 
pissed at Johnny.)
IM 29
IM 30 pp 1-8 (Avengers distress call... perhaps about Blizzard in 
NYC.)
NW 9 pp 3-17 (Iron Man reaches NYC, attacks New Warriors)
NW 9 pp 1-2
NW 9 pp 18+ (Nita irritated that Johnny allied with Doom.)
IM 30 pp 9+
FF 30 pp 18+
IM 31 (Stark returns to old IM armor.)
FF 31 (Doom returns. Reed's facade not revealed to general 
public.)
CA 32
A 31

 - Sean

			*	*	*

Speaking of including alternate universes in the MCP...
Posted by Gary M. Miller on November 19, 2000 at 23:07:56:

...I just read the post a little far down the page re: Ultraverse, 
and it crossed my mind that maybe one of the FAQ's on the page 
could be wrong.  I'll elaborate...

It's said that the New Universe isn't in the MCP because it's 
"not part of the Marvel Universe."  That's where you're wrong, 
and, I'd guess, it's due to the gap around the early 90s.  The 
Starblast limited series & crossover firmly transferred the New 
Universe Earth into the Marvel Universe; hence, retroactively, it 
can be said that the New Universe actually is part of the Marvel 
Universe.  All of the characters, from D.P.7 to the Star Brand, 
Justice and everything in between, they're all in the Marvel 
Universe proper right now (as of QUASAR #57 and STARBLAST #4).  
Cross-check my facts there.

Oh, and before anyone else asks: Yes, I have every New Universe 
book out there, which means Icould compile the chronology if 
anyone were to ask.  Most of the characters had their most recent 
appearances in the aforementioned Starblast crossover, which ran 
through the STARBLAST miniseries, plus QUASAR, FANTASTIC FOUR and 
NAMOR THE SUB-MARINER.

What do you think, sirs?

-Gary M.

			*	*	*

Re: Speaking of including alternate universes in the MCP...
Posted by Russ Chappell on November 19, 2000 at 23:18:59:
In Reply to: Speaking of including alternate universes in the MCP...
posted by Gary M. Miller on November 19, 2000 at 23:07:56:

> What do you think, sirs?

I think we're gradually moving down a path in our policies that 
will ultimately include all of the universes and alternate timelines 
in the MCP, but we're not there yet.

I too have all the New Universe books (at least, the eight original 
series; I'm not sure about the Starblast limited), so when the time 
comes, I'll be able to add those books myself.

			*	*	*

Re: Speaking of including alternate universes in the MCP...
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on November 21, 2000 at 16:46:26:
In Reply to: Re: Speaking of including alternate universes in the MCP...
posted by Russ Chappell on November 19, 2000 at 23:18:59:

Russ spake:

: I think we're gradually moving down a path in our policies 
that will ultimately include all of the universes and alternate 
timelines in the MCP, but we're not there yet.

Glad to hear it, but would you mind defining "all?"  Indexing 
*every* What If could give everybody a headache!  How might we 
distinguish between realities worth including?  I could see 
"Secret Wars 25 Years Later" and the Spider-Girl issue, but ones 
like "What If the Impossible Man Had the Infinity Gauntlet?" may 
not make the cut.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: Speaking of including alternate universes in the MCP...
Posted by Russ Chappell on November 21, 2000 at 17:10:36:
In Reply to: Re: Speaking of including alternate universes in the MCP...
posted by StAkAr Karnak on November 21, 2000 at 16:46:26:

> Russ spake:

> > I think we're gradually moving down a path in our policies that 
will ultimately include all of the universes and alternate timelines 
in the MCP, but we're not there yet.

> Glad to hear it, but would you mind defining "all?"  Indexing 
*every* What If could give everybody a headache!  How might we 
distinguish between realities worth including?  I could see 
"Secret Wars 25 Years Later" and the Spider-Girl issue, but ones 
like "What If the Impossible Man Had the Infinity Gauntlet?" may 
not make the cut.

Perhaps alternate universe versions of the MCP?

Setting up alternate MCP's in their own directories would be one 
option. MCP's for:

2099
New Universe
GOTG/Killraven/et al
MC2
What If?
2020
2013
Mutant X-Verse
Bishop's timeline (whatever that's called now)

spring to mind.

I don't want to give anyone the impression that we're committing 
to this. It's just something that's been bouncing around in my 
head for a few months, and I think that some of the characters 
that we've added over the past year are just leading us down a 
path that ends up at this natural conclusion.

			*	*	*

Re: Speaking of including alternate universes in the MCP...
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on November 22, 2000 at 16:31:31:
In Reply to: Re: Speaking of including alternate universes in the MCP...
posted by Russ Chappell on November 21, 2000 at 17:10:36:

Russ spake:

: Perhaps alternate universe versions of the MCP?

: Setting up alternate MCP's in their own directories would be 
one option.  MCP's for:

: 2099
: New Universe
: GOTG/Killraven/et al
: MC2
: What If?
: 2020
: 2013
: Mutant X-Verse
: Bishop's timeline (whatever that's called now)

: spring to mind.

: I don't want to give anyone the impression that we're committing 
to this. It's just something that's been bouncing around in my head 
for a few months, and I think that some of the characters that 
we've added over the past year are just leading us down a path that 
ends up at this natural conclusion.

I'd agree, with the exception of the New Universe, which I'd place 
within the core directory, as it seems to have been absorbed into 
the MU proper.  What If might be a case by case story.

For those that have stemmed from the MU proper, we might have a 
link to the Mainstream chronology at the divergence point.  For 
example:

JUSTICE II/VANCE ASTROVIK
NW 58-FB
GSDEF 5
DEF 26
A 170
A 173
M/TIO 69
[Divergence point: Major Victory]
TG 26
TG 27
TG 28

MAJOR VICTORY/MAJOR VANCE ASTRO
NW 58-FB
GSDEF 5
DEF 26
A 170
A 173
M/TIO 69
[Divergence point: Justice]
GOTG 1-FB
FF@ 24/3
T@ 16/2

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: Speaking of including alternate universes in the MCP...
Posted by Russ Chappell on November 22, 2000 at 16:40:54:
In Reply to: Re: Speaking of including alternate universes in the MCP...
posted by StAkAr Karnak on November 22, 2000 at 16:31:31:

> Russ spake:

> > Perhaps alternate universe versions of the MCP?

> > Setting up alternate MCP's in their own directories would be 
one option.  

> > I don't want to give anyone the impression that we're 
committing to this. It's just something that's been bouncing 
around in my head for a few months, and I think that some of 
the characters that we've added over the past year are just 
leading us down a path that ends up at this natural conclusion.

> I'd agree, with the exception of the New Universe, which I'd 
place within the core directory, as it seems to have been absorbed 
into the MU proper.  What If might be a case by case story.

> For those that have stemmed from the MU proper, we might have 
a link to the Mainstream chronology at the divergence point.  

If we elect to include divergence points in the listings, it would 
have to be with the understanding that What If, once again, would 
be a special case. Otherwise, major characters would have divergence 
points literally all over the place.

			*	*	*

Re: Speaking of including alternate universes in the MCP...
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on November 23, 2000 at 14:53:39:
In Reply to: Re: Speaking of including alternate universes in the MCP...
posted by Russ Chappell on November 22, 2000 at 16:40:54:

Russ spake:

: If we elect to include divergence points in the listings, it 
would have to be with the understanding that What If, once again, 
would be a special case.  Otherwise, major characters would have 
divergence points literally all over the place.

With a prolific guy like Spider-Man, that might just be the case.  
There would be links to his counterparts from Killraven/GOTG and 
MC2, to name the major ones.  These *would* be linked to the 
seperate chronologies.  In the case of WHAT IF #umpteen, "What If 
Spidey got a chocolate donut instead of one with sprinkles?", 
perhaps a note could be made at the appropriate place...

ASM 280
ASM 281  [Divergence: WI?2 umpteen]
ASM 282

...and leave it at that without a link to a seperate chronology.  
To have a seperate chronology for every reality ever depicted would 
not be practical - many would have only one entry post divergence 
per character.

As far as the entry being littered with notations, I don't have a 
problem with that.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: Speaking of including alternate universes in the MCP...
Posted by Flank McLargehuge on November 26, 2000 at 02:28:34:
In Reply to: Re: Speaking of including alternate universes in the MCP...
posted by StAkAr Karnak on November 21, 2000 at 16:46:26:

: How might we distinguish between realities worth including?  I 
could see "Secret Wars 25 Years Later" and the Spider-Girl issue, 
but ones like "What If the Impossible Man Had the Infinity 
Gauntlet?" may not make the cut.

I don't see much point in doing a chronology for a world or 
character that doesn't appear in more than one issue.  So if a 
reality was just a one-shot, like the "Secret Wars 25 Years Later," 
there isn't much need for a chronology, as opposed to the 
Spider-Girl issue, which went into the SPIDER-GIRL series, and 
then the whole MC2 line.  EARTH/UNIVERSE X would be a worthy 
endevour, as would New Universe, 2099, Age of Apocalypse and 
Guardians of the Galaxy, while things like FANTASTIC FOUR:  
BIG TOWN, which is only four issues of a world, aren't quite 
so useful.

(I say useful because of the forthcoming X-ILES series, which I 
just saw announced on Newsarama.  It's got Blink [from AoA] leading 
a bunch of X-characters from various realities to various other 
realities on some big quest, and is a way to play with the AoA and 
Mutant X universes since X-MAN and MUTANT X are being canned, along 
with Earth X and other various places.)

			*	*	*

Re: Speaking of including alternate universes in the MCP...
Posted by Jimmy Flowers on June 02, 2001 at 20:21:13:
In Reply to: Speaking of including alternate universes in the MCP...
posted by Gary M. Miller on November 19, 2000 at 23:07:56:

Just a note...there's a bunch of New Universe characters in Quasar 31.

			*	*	*

Message Board suggestion
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on November 23, 2000 at 14:58:09:

Any chance of having the menu bar that appears on the other 
pages integrated into the side of the Message Board?  It'd 
make for easier reference when posting.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: Message Board suggestion
Posted by Russ Chappell on November 23, 2000 at 16:14:52:
In Reply to: Message Board suggestion 
posted by StAkAr Karnak on November 23, 2000 at 14:58:09:

It'll require fiddling with the perl code, but I'm willing 
to give it a shot.

			*	*	*

Full names
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on November 24, 2000 at 17:24:17:

Here are a few adjustments (most indicated with brackets), with 
references.

On a related note, I wanted to comment on the subject of nicknames, 
brought up in another thread.  In some cases, an individual is 
called by their nickname as often as their given name (as some of 
the examples below can attest), so I favor inclusion of selected 
nicknames. "Petey" Parker - no.  "Genny" (Genis-Vell) - yes.  A 
"Bill" for the Williams, a "Bob" for the Roberts, a "Tony" for the 
"Anthonys", etc.

BUSIEK, KURT [DAVID]
CARTER, JAMES EARL "JIMMY" JR.
CLINTON, WILLIAM "BILL" JEFFERSON BLYTHE IV
CLINTON, HILLARY DIANE RODHAM
KIRBY, JACK/JACOB KURTZBERG
LETTERMAN, DAVID [MICHAEL]
LEE, STAN/STANLEY LIEBER
NIXON, RICHARD [MILHOUS]
PARKER, MARY [FITZPATRICK] (ROBOT)  [Kurt, racmu, 13 Nov 2000.  
Where he got that, I dunno, but hey, it's Kurt!]
PARKER, MAY [REILLY] (From what I understand, Ben Reilly took 
his surname from May's maiden name.  Dunno where you'd see this 
in print.)
QUASAR III/WENDELL [ELVIS] VAUGHAN
QUAYLE, JAMES DANFORTH "DAN" QUAYLE
QUESADA, JOSEPH "JOE" L.
REAGAN, NANCY [DAVIS]
REAGAN, RONALD [WILSON]
- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Mary Fitzpatrick...
Posted by Prime Eternal on November 24, 2000 at 19:57:24:
In Reply to: Full names
posted by StAkAr Karnak on November 24, 2000 at 17:24:17:

: PARKER, MARY [FITZPATRICK] (ROBOT)  [Kurt, racmu, 13 Nov 2000.  
Where he got that, I dunno, but hey, it's Kurt!]

That comes from Untold Tales of Spider-Man Minus One, in which we 
got some background on her, and had a glimpse of her father, Will 
Fitzpatrick.

Michael Hoskin

			*	*	*

Re: Mary Fitzpatrick...
Posted by Beetle on November 25, 2000 at 09:31:52:
In Reply to: Mary Fitzpatrick...
posted by Prime Eternal on November 24, 2000 at 19:57:24:

: : PARKER, MARY [FITZPATRICK] (ROBOT)  [Kurt, racmu, 13 Nov 2000.  
Where he got that, I dunno, but hey, it's Kurt!]

: That comes from Untold Tales of Spider-Man Minus One, in which 
we got some background on her, and had a glimpse of her father, 
Will Fitzpatrick.

But is also comes from an old issue of Amazing Spider-Man around 
#180's (185 I think) where we see a tombstone saying Mary 
Fitzpatrick Parker...

Kim "The Beetle" Henckel

			*	*	*

Avataars: Covenant of the Shield#1-3
Posted by Prime Eternal on November 24, 2000 at 20:21:10:]

Issue#1

In the opening sequence, the Shaper of Worlds creates a new world 
called Eurth. Characters appearing in this sequence:

Shaper of Worlds, Eternity, Living Tribunal, Uatu, Infinity, Glorian, 
Prester John, Stranger.

Then the story shifts to Eurth itself, and from this point on, the 
story is divided between Prester John narrating to St'vaan, son of 
Captain Avalon, and the flashback tale that is actually the main 
story.

So, appearing in the bridging sequence are Prester John and 
St'vaan II.

Appearing in the flashback in this issue are:

Sharaan, Captain Avalon (St'vaan), St'vaan II, Skorch, Merman 
(Manor), Greenskyn Smashtroll, Blackthorn, Witchfire, Swift, 
Savagri, Scorpius, Ill Wind, Von Bludving, Black Blade, Slag, 
Moonchild, Deathmaster, and the Stranger.

Note that that's _the_ Stranger, not a template character like 
everyone else.

Issue#2

Appearing in the bridging sequence are, again, Prester John and 
St'vaan II.

Appearing in the flashback story:

Captain Avalon, Blackthorn, Witchfire, Swift, Skorch, Behemoth, 
Faery Queen (Jhan), Merman, Bluestone, Ironheart, Idol, Avalonia, 
Ch'll, Warmaker, Bloodraven, Apollyon, Nighthowl, Nosferata, Black 
Blade, St'vaan II, Dreadlord (Zymo), Goblin King, Mysterium, Talon, 
Huntsman, Jolt, Tentaculus, Sandstorm, Webslinger, Seer, Simon 
Magnus, Psyche, Redeye, Icemaker, Whitehawk, Brutus, Hop-Fiend, 
Humongous, Illusio, Aura, the Stranger, St. Nathanial, Lord Nimbus, 
Count Crag, Lady Aqua, Prince Morningstar, and Doomsmith.

Issue#3

Appearing in the bridging sequence for this issue are Prester 
John, St'vaan II, Greenskyn Smashtroll, the Stranger, Regent 
Nicholas, Eternity, Infinity, Living Tribunal, and the Shaper 
of Worlds.

Appearing in the flashback:

Blackthorn, Witchfire, Idol, Ironheart, Captain Avalon, Nighthowl, 
Bloodraven, Dreadlord, St'vaan II, Black Blade, Darkwater, Scarabus, 
Iron Cross, Titan, Slag, Ill Wind, Green Death, Swashbuckler, Scythe, 
Skreech, Deathlight, and Phantazm.

At the end of the flashback, Captain Avalon and Dreadlord travel 
back in time to the end of the "Worldwar", and merge with their 
past selves.

So, that's that.

Well, sort of. Something I didn't mention is that all three issues 
are peppered with pages from Prester John's book, depicting the past 
of the various characters. I think this falls under portraits/
pictures, but if not, I'll provide the needed information.

Michael Hoskin

			*	*	*

Hmmm been reading way to many MTIO lately....
Posted by Beetle on November 25, 2000 at 09:29:37:

instead of concentration on my "real" studies (a philosophy synopsis 
could be worked upon instead)

Oh well here's some updates on some of the characters in the MCP

ADAMSON, JASON
ST 174
ST 176
ST 177
Adding: MTIO 11

ADAMSON, REBECCA
ST 174
ST 176
ST 177
Adding: MTIO 11

LOGAN, WAYNE
ST 174
ST 176
ST 177
Adding: MTIO 11

DR. SPECTRUM II/DR. KINJI OBATU
IM 65-FB
A 70-FB
IM 65-FB
A 69
A 70
IM 63
IM 64
IM 65
IM 66
IM 67
Adding: MTIO 41 - FB (seen taken to jail after being defeated by 
Iron Man)
DEF 13
DEF 14
A@ 8-FB
GSDEF 4
A@ 8
Adding: MTIO 40* - BTS (control a Zumvebie, which attacks the 1o 
most famous black people living in the U.S)
Adding: MTIO 41* (as Dr. Obatu, falls from building, killed)

*Placing the MTIO here is ofcource just a guess since I don't own 
A@ 8

Kim "The Beetle" Henckel

			*	*	*

Group tracking proposal
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on November 26, 2000 at 19:11:56:

I've developed an idea I've had for being able to track groups, 
such as the Avengers, Masters of Evil, the Shi'ar, or anyone else 
you might come up with that could potentially be helpful.  It needs 
some fleshing out, put the jist of it is there.  Everything has 
been HTMLed, and you can visit my efforts here: 

http://www.geocities.com/glakandar/propose.htm

I'm anxious for opinions.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: Group tracking proposal
Posted by Russ Chappell on November 26, 2000 at 20:36:34:
In Reply to: Group tracking proposal
posted by StAkAr Karnak on November 26, 2000 at 19:11:56:

Well, I'm excited about this. Kurt Busiek has asked us about the 
possibility of listing histories or chronologies of teams or groups, 
and this may be one way of incorporating them. I'd also like to look 
at the idea of bringing in experts on various teams to write essays 
on their histories.

The Avengers Assemble site is, of course, an already existing 
excellent resource on the history of that group, much of that 
thanks to our own (as in "we found him first") Paul Bourcier. So 
rather than inventing the wheel, there may be some way to link to 
that and other sites that delve into history and chronology.

I'm eager to bring histories not just of the heavy hitters, but of 
groups such as Hydra, AIM, Maggia, the Sentinels, and others.

There's so much I want to do, so many features that I'd like to add 
to the site, but I have to be careful about overextending myself. I 
spent a good portion of the Thanksgiving holiday adding about a 
month's worth of books, but no one has to tell me that there's so 
much more to add before we're close to being caught up. And there's 
still the first gap, and Invaders, and GOTG, and Micronauts, and the 
graphic novels, and so on...

Well, that's enough for now.

If you get any email responses on the proposal, StAkAr, I trust 
you'll share them with us. I think there's potential here.

			*	*	*

Re: Group tracking proposal
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on November 26, 2000 at 21:17:37:
In Reply to: Re: Group tracking proposal
posted by Russ Chappell on November 26, 2000 at 20:36:34:

Russ spake:

: Well, I'm excited about this.

Glad to hear it!  It'd work nicely with my suggestion of labeling 
the species of each character, don'cha think?  :->

: Kurt Busiek has asked us about the possibility of listing 
histories or chronologies of teams or groups, and this may be one 
way of incorporating them.  I'd also like to look at the idea of 
bringing in experts on various teams to write essays on their 
histories.

Sounds nice (anything for Kurt!), but said experts most likely 
have their info posted elsewhere.  A simple link might do the 
trick.

: rather than inventing the wheel, there may be some way to link 
to that and other sites that delve into history and chronology.

Done, sorta.  I've just thrown in some links for Avengers, 
Defenders, the FF and the T-Bolts to further my example.

: I'm eager to bring histories not just of the heavy hitters, but 
of groups such as Hydra, AIM, Maggia, the Sentinels, and others.

The Sentinels are a different animal altogether.  Sounds like you're 
trying to orchestrate an eOHOTMU.

: There so much I want to do, so many features that I'd like to add 
to the site, but I have to be careful about overextending myself.  
I spent a good portion of the Thanksgiving holiday adding about a 
month's worth of books, but no one has to tell me that there's so 
much more to add before we're close to being caught up.  And there's 
still the first gap, and Invaders, and GOTG, and Micronauts, and the 
graphic novels, and so on...

I don't know how you do it.  I've been compiling Killraven/Dargo/GOTG 
info for a few years and I'm only beginning to make time for 
postworthy material.

: If you get any email responses on the proposal, StAkAr, I trust 
you'll share them with us.  I think there's potential here.

Will do, although I expect most (if not all feedback) will be here 
on the board.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: Group tracking proposal
Posted by Flank McLargehuge on December 21, 2000 at 00:16:27:
In Reply to: Re: Group tracking proposal
posted by Russ Chappell on November 26, 2000 at 20:36:34:

: Well, I'm excited about this. Kurt Busiek has asked us about the 
possibility of listing histories or chronologies of teams or groups, 
and this may be one way of incorporating them. I'd also like to look 
at the idea of bringing in experts on various teams to write essays 
on their histories.

I'll volunteer my encyclopedic knowledge of the New Warriors and the 
groups that stemmed from them, and I'd imagine that MyWords from the 
New Warriors Continuity Conundrum website would be willing to help 
out on that subject too.

The problem with external links in something like this is that 
there's no guarantee that the site will even be there when a visitor 
clicks its link, let alone that it would be useful!  Soliciting 
short historiesor overviews to be posted on this site from mailing 
lists and websites devoted to the subjects might be a good idea; it 
wouldn't be able to be updated as frequently as a personal website 
would, but there's definitely something to be said for one-stop 
researching...

			*	*	*

Cool idea
Posted by John Simons on November 27, 2000 at 01:27:04:
In Reply to: Group tracking proposal
posted by StAkAr Karnak on November 26, 2000 at 19:11:56:

Hey, this really looks like it would be helpful. Are some of the 
areas of skimpy information simply because you haven't entered the 
data yet? For instance, I assume you know there are more people in 
SHIELD than Nick Fury and Dum Dum. :)

			*	*	*

Re: Cool idea
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on November 27, 2000 at 09:40:00:
In Reply to: Cool idea
posted by John Simons on November 27, 2000 at 01:27:04:

: Hey, this really looks like it would be helpful.

Thanks.  I accept donations.  They're tax-deductible.

> Are some of the areas of skimpy information simply because you 
haven't entered the data yet? For instance, I assume you know there 
are more people in SHIELD than Nick Fury and Dum Dum. :)

They're skimpy because a lot of info was filled in from lists on 
other sites, a few OHOTMUs and whatever I could remember.  Rather 
than acting on hunches, I filled in only what I was sure of - enough 
to give everyone an idea of how the thing would work.  If anyone 
wants to fill in anything, send me email so as not to clutter up 
the board with off-topic posts, and I'll add them.  Eventually, I 
suppose Russ can lift the code and give it a cozy home at the MCP.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Note on X-Men #106 and characters introduced
Posted by Jeph! on November 27, 2000 at 00:17:06:

Just got through re-reading the "Dream's End" arc over in X-Men, and 
I've been noticing that the actual resolution bears little or no 
resemblance to the build-up.  For this board's purposes there's 
something I wanted to mention about X-Men #106 and Cable #87.

In X-Men #106, Mystique is shown training the new Brotherhood she 
has formed for the assassination of Senator Kelly.  Two new, young 
members are shown -- Sabre, a speedster and presumably the son of 
Super Sabre, and an unnamed girl -- neither of whom are EVER SEEN 
AGAIN for the rest of the story arc.  And with Claremont's departure 
next month, presumably they will never be seen again.

Now, in interviews, Claremont is said to have wanted to introduce 
a new Super Sabre and a new Stonewall.  Presumably this girl was 
meant to be Stonewall II.  But I don't think she should be seen 
that way.

I think, based on Mastermind III's sudden appearance with the 
Brotherhood in Cable #87, that the young girl in X-Men #106 was 
probably (or should be interpreted retrospectively to be) her.  
Dominique Jason, nee Wyngarde, aka Mastermind junior.

Mystique's comments would still make sense -- Dominque also was an 
"untested neophyte and needed to prove herself", just like Sabre.  
But while Dominique made the cut, Sabre didn't.  There's no need to 
wonder where two new characters suddenly vanished to and no need to 
place an abortive entry for "STONEWALL II?", or leave a character 
oddly unidentified.

I like this explanation.  It saves on danglers.

	-Jeph!
agree?  disagree?...

			*	*	*

Defender reunion issue..
Posted by The Nephilim on November 27, 2000 at 03:00:04:

Hi. Anyone know what issue that was which involved a Defenders 
reunion by Peter David?

Thanks 
The Nephilim 

			*	*	*

Re: Defender reunion issue..
Posted by The Beetle on November 27, 2000 at 13:56:44:
In Reply to: Defender reunion issue..
posted by The Nephilim on November 27, 2000 at 03:00:04:

: Hi. Anyone know what issue that was which involved a Defenders 
reunion by Peter David?

Probably not a issue but some issues

There was a storyline i the beginning of the 90's (92 I think) 
called "The Defenders reunion" (or something like that)

The issues were;
Incredible Hulk Annual 18
Namor, The Sub-Mariner annual 2
Silver Surfer Annual 5
Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme Annual 2

: 
: Thanks 
: The Nephilim 

Hope it helps some....
Best,
"The Beetle"

			*	*	*

Re: Defender reunion issue..
Posted by Michel Racaud on November 27, 2000 at 14:43:05:
In Reply to: Re: Defender reunion issue..
posted by The Beetle on November 27, 2000 at 13:56:44:

The arc was called "The Return of the Defenders" and only the Hulk 
Annual is from David, the others are from Ron Marz and Roy Thomas.

You can see the covers through this page

http://perso.club-internet.fr/comicsvf/idx/VOCG.html

Michel

			*	*	*

Try Hulk#370-371. *nt*
Posted by Prime Eternal on November 27, 2000 at 16:35:00:
In Reply to: Defender reunion issue..
posted by The Nephilim on November 27, 2000 at 03:00:04:

			*	*	*

Re: Defender reunion issue..
Posted by rm on January 28, 2001 at 16:54:36:
In Reply to: Defender reunion issue..
posted by The Nephilim on November 27, 2000 at 03:00:04:

: Hi. Anyone know what issue that was which involved a Defenders 
reunion by Peter David?

: 
: Thanks 
: The Nephilim 

the annuals mentioned were a later follow up to the afforementioned 
hulk 370-371

rm

			*	*	*

A question of rank
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on November 27, 2000 at 09:43:18:

What is the MCP's policy for listing a character's military rank?  
I've seen cases of ranks listed and others where there could be a 
note made but there is none.

- StAkAr Karnak
Making Russ' job harder every day...

			*	*	*

Re: A question of rank
Posted by Russ Chappell on November 27, 2000 at 19:36:21:
In Reply to: A question of rank
posted by StAkAr Karnak on November 27, 2000 at 09:43:18:

If there are military ranks that aren't listed, it's an oversight.

			*	*	*

Gambit #24
Posted by Randy Womble on November 27, 2000 at 16:30:13:

Gambit #24
Characters:
GAMBIT
NEW SON/NEW SUN
QUIET BILL
FONTANELLE
COURIER
JEAN LUC LEBEAU (ALTERNATE EARTH VERSION)
MR. SINISTER-FB
HUEY

Synopsis:  Gambit is plucked from New Orleans by New Sun (this is 
the name used in this issue) and transported to New Sun's alternate 
Earth. New Sun explains that he was born in Alpha-1, a mutant 
research and genetic planning facility.  After his powers manifested 
he joined his world's version of Professor X and the X-Men for a 
while, but left after killing that world's version of Phoenix. And 
later fought alongside other superhumans, such as Fantastic Four.  
Then he met Jean Luc Lebeau who introduced him to the prophecies of 
the ancient guilds.  New Sun and Lebeau sought to bring about the 
resurrection of the Old Kingdom and Heaven on Earth.  The energies 
of the long dead Sun King were channeled into New Sun and he 
destroyed his Earth.  In flashback, he refers to Gambit having sought 
out Mr. Sinister in 1891, to restore his original powers.  He then 
travelled to alternate earths, arriving on the Age of Apocalypse 
earth, but the explosion of the M'Kraan Crystal sent him to the main 
Marvel Universe Earth.  And to save this Earth, he decides Gambit 
must be killed.  They fight and New Sun is destroyed. Meanwhile 
Fontanelle and Courier use the mutant Quiet Bill to open a portal to 
save Gambit.  Quiet Bill's friend Huey is dead in the aftermath.

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit #24
Posted by Paul O'Brien on November 27, 2000 at 17:16:23:
In Reply to: Gambit #24
posted by Randy Womble on November 27, 2000 at 16:30:13:

Some additional comments:-

1.  This is a self-contained story with no obvious references to 
other books.  Accordingly, it slots quite happily in at the end of 
Gambit's continuity, following his minor role in the Dream's End 
crossover (ending in X-Men Vol 2 #108).

2.  This issue includes a one panel flashback to 1891, showing Mr 
Sinister carrying out some kind of medical procedure on Gambit that 
restored his full powers.  (The series had earlier revealed that 
Gambit's full powers were scarily dangerous and godlike, and he'd 
deliberately had them restricted as a child.  Stuck in 1891, he 
needs Sinister to restore them so that he can get back to the 
present.)  This scene follows on directly from a similar flashback 
in issue #16 in which Gambit and Sinister were shown merely preparing 
for the operation.

Gambit's next appearance after that flashback is in issue #17 (or, 
if you prefer, one of the flashbacks in that story that filled in the 
six month gap).  Sinister's, by my count, is a flashback in Cable 
1999.

3.  The issue includes a lengthy origin flashback for the New Sun.  
The gist is that the New Sun is his world's version of Gambit (which 
we already knew); that he was raised to use his full powers as a 
child (which is why he's so much more powerful than our Gambit); that 
he met Jean-Luc Lebeau as a teenager (as opposed to being adopted by 
him as a child).  The New Sun and Jean-Luc try to fulfil the 
prophecies that our world's Thieves Guild keep babbling on about, by 
carrying out a mystical ritual.  This unfortunately has the effect of 
the New Sun's powers going out of control and wiping out all life on 
the planet aside from the New Sun himself.

This is the New Sun's chronologically earliest appearance, preceding 
Gambit #1/2.  During this flashback, he appears in the flashback in 
issue #22 (which showed various heroes from his world trying to get 
him back under control.)

This flashback also reveals that the New Sun travelled to Earth via 
the Age of Apocalypse, arriving just in time for the destruction of 
that world in X-Men Omega.  That means that the New Sun's chronology 
ought to run....

GAM3 24-FB
GAM3 22-FB
GAM3 24-FB
GAM3 24-FB~X-Men Omega-BTS
>GAM3 1/2
...and from there into his appearances in the regular series.

The Dark Beast and the Age of Apocalypse versions of Rogue and 
Magneto also appear in this flashback, which perhaps merits a 
"concurrent appearance" entry.  They're not up to anything 
interesting - just standing around - so it appears to take place 
towards the end of X-Men Omega.

			*	*	*

X-Man #71
Posted by Randy Womble on November 27, 2000 at 16:45:04:

Characters:
X-MAN/NATE GREY
SISTER PERPETUA

Alternate Earth 616 characters -
ZEITGEIST/NICOLA
CITYDWELLER
PROFESSOR X/NATE
THOR
TECHNOCRAT/RANDY
QABIRI/"BURNING TIGER"

Synopsis:  Opens with a scene on alternate Earth 616 thirty years 
ago, with "Ma and Pa Kent" type couple see an unidentified object 
crash.  It explodes and burns away Kansas.  Present day main Earth, 
Nate Grey seeks out Sister Perpetua, a nun with the mutant ability 
to see other Earth's being destroyed.  She has blinded herself by 
putting out her own eyes.  Nate uses his power to try and "cure" 
her.  Meanwhile on an alternate earth, presumably Earth 616 again, 
the super-powered beings of this Earth confront a terrible threat 
they call "Burning Tiger".  Zeitgeist a.k.a. Nicola (seems to be 
this Earth's version  of sister Perpetua), Citydweller, Professor X 
a.k.a. Nate (this world's version of Nate Grey), Thor and Technocrat 
fight this menace, which is revealed to be the Qabiri.  (Two other 
super-powered beings, White Bird and Nightfighter are mentioned but 
not shown.)  Qabiri is trying to destroy Professor X and Zeitgeist 
"travelling up and down the corridor of worlds."  He kills Thor and 
Professor X, and then Nate Grey and Sister Perpetua arrive to help 
out.

			*	*	*

Deadpool #48
Posted by Paul O'Brien on November 27, 2000 at 17:24:47:

This issue ties up the Cruel Summer three-parter, which featured 
no established characters other than Deadpool himself.  For ease 
of reference, I'll simply go through all the characters who appear 
in more than one issue, and list which issues they're in:-

Deadpool (#46-48)
Pierson, Fred (#46-48)
Anna/Ananastasia (the story uses both names; #46-48)
Bloodvessel, Busta (no, really... #46-48)
Vinnie (surname unrevealed; #47-48)
Nikki (surname unrevealed; #47-48)

I wouldn't bother with the last two if I were you (they both die, 
anyway).  But there they are.

Oh yes, plot...  No references at all to any other stories.  The plot 
is a film noir pastiche - Deadpool is enlisted to help kill off some 
crimelords in what turns out to be a scheme by bent policeman Fred 
Pierson and his tattooist friend Ananastasia to bump off his wife for 
insurance, kill the mobsters Anna's tied up with, and get out of 
town.  Anna turns on Fred after finding he was planning to pocket 
most of the insurance money for himself, and goes back to Deadpool, 
claiming that she was planning to all along.  Big climactic shoot-
out, everyone dies except Deadpool, Anna and (for no apparent reason) 
Anna's friend Busta.  Anna offers Deadpool a gun to kill her with as 
a show of faith in him, and the story ends with the very obvious 
implication that Deadpool's about to kill her anyway.  All fairly 
missable.

			*	*	*

Iron Fist/Wolverine #3
Posted by Paul O'Brien on November 27, 2000 at 17:34:47:

Ah, this.  Iron Fist/Half The Marvel Universe.

This is a direct continuation from the previous issue; let me know 
if you need more information on the rest of the series.  This issue, 
the heroes fight their way past the barrier surrounding Tokyo 
(leaving Captain America and Sunfire outside still fighting).  Big 
fight inside with the baddies; Wolverine heads off to rescue Iron 
Fist and Misty Knight.  Iron Fist decides to bring his villainous 
uncle Yu-Ti along with him after his mother's ghost appears to him 
and delivers a homily on the joys of family (you can tell I don't 
like this one, can't you?).  They hook up with the other heroes for 
the big fight at the end.

Most of the characters appearing here were in the previous issue as 
well, so nothing to say about chronology.  (It's not like the series 
has any particular chronology references anyway - though you should 
note that issue #2 has the current line-up of the Avengers in it.)

Here's the list of characters appearing - count the pointless guest 
appearances!

Cage, Luke
Captain America I
Iron Fist (and his mother's ghost, whatever her name is - actually, 
she was last in issue #1)
Iron Man I
Knight, Misty
Muto, Junzo
Psylocke
Yu-Ti
Sunfire
Wolverine

The only characters popping up for the first time here are Sharon 
Carter in her surrogate Nick Fury role (I've got this one down as 
taking place between the SHIELD story in Captain America 2000 and 
her behind the scenes role in Iron Man #36).  And for the ultimate 
pointless guest appearance, Bill Clinton's there too.

			*	*	*

Sentry #5
Posted by Paul O'Brien on November 27, 2000 at 18:07:17:

I do recommend buying this series, Russ - aside from being really 
quite good, it's also full of rather intricate flashbacks that you 
might want to look at for yourself.  But here goes nothing.

The plot: Having returned to his Watchtower citadel (which was 
apparently in New York all along and nobody noticed), the Sentry 
disables the device which was making everyone forget about him.  
The entire planet immediately remembers who he is.  The Sentry then 
recalls that, at what seemed to be his funeral, Reed Richards made 
a speech denouncing him as a traitor.

The Sentry pops back home to visit his wife, and is briefly attacked 
by the Void (appearing for the first time as a humanoid character).  
The Void's other manifestation - an unnatural storm - heads over the 
Atlantic towards New York, and the Sentry gathers a whole load of 
superheroes to fight him.  End of series, cue the one-shots.

Some general observations on continuity:-

1.  This issue is evidently a direct continuation from issue #4, 
which ended with the Sentry finding the Watchtower.

2.  Although the narration keeps saying that it's as though people 
had just never noticed the Watchtower was there (and so forth), I 
rather imagine that we're heading towards something that establishes 
that the Sentry is a part of Marvel Universe history that was erased 
and that will probably be erased again after this series.  Until this 
gets clarified, I don't propose to try and work out the chronology 
for the mainstream characters appearing in the Sentry's flashbacks.

3.  Since Professor X is back leading the X-Men in Sentry #4-5, 
those issues obviously follow on his return to Earth in Maximum 
Security #3.  (The odd depiction of Rogue in her green hooded costume 
in Sentry #4 looks rather less odd now, since Salvador Larroca drew 
her in the same costume in last month's Uncanny - apparently she just 
wears it around the house.)

But earlier in this series the Fantastic Four appeared to be living 
in their home in Pier Four.  And by the time of Maximum Security, 
Pier Four had been destroyed and the Fantastic Four had moved into 
the Damage Control building.  (We know this, since in Black Panther 
#26 - set in the post-Maximum Security clean-up - the Fantastic Four 
are shown to have just returned home to the Damage Control building.)

That means that Maximum Security seems to have taken place at some 
point DURING this series.  I propose that it takes place during issue 
#3 - there's a nice clear break after the opening scene (Reed and Dr 
Strange talking about the Sentry, which directly followed on from 
issue #2).  Maximum Security can fit happily there.

So.  Leaving the flashbacks aside for the moment, here's the 
characters appearing:-

ARCHANGEL, who was in last issue as well; I'd suggest his next 
appearance is in Uncanny #388.

CAPTAIN AMERICA.  Between Iron Fist/Wolverine #3 and Captain America 
#37 seems to fit.

CLOC, the sentient computer in the Watchtower.  First and only 
appearance for this thing.

THE FANTASTIC FOUR - all of them.  This must follow FF3 37, the last 
issue of their series (since that was the issue where they moved into 
the Damage Control building, which precedes Maximum Security, which 
precedes Sentry #4-5).  I'd suggest their cameos in Black Panther #26 
and Iron Fist/Wolverine #2 take place between FF3 37 and this issue, 
as well.

HULK.  This would seem to fit between Maximum Security #3 (has to come 
after that) and before Incredible Hulk #22 (which came out afterwards).

PROFESSOR X, who was in last issue as well; again, I'd suggest his 
next appearance is in Uncanny #388.

REYNOLDS, LINDY - the Sentry's wife, last in issue #1.  No further 
appearances.

SCARLET WITCH - Behind the scenes (the Sentry mentions in passing 
that he's got her leading a team he's already despatched).  Presumably 
following her cameo in Iron Fist/Wolverine #2.

SCOUT.  The sidekick from the previous issues (named as Billy Turner, 
incidentally).  His unnamed mother (presumably Mrs Turner) also 
appears.  Both were in the last issue; Scout, obviously, has been in 
a string of flashbacks of questionable canonicity.

THE SENTRY, obviously.  Last in issue #4, no further appearances.

SPIDER-MAN.  He was in the previous issue.  I'll leave detailed 
analysis of his chronology for another thread.

STORM, hanging around the X-Men mansion.  I'd suggest she appears 
between Black Panther #26 and Uncanny #388.

THOR.  In a one panel cameo at the end.  This must follow the 
storyline currently underway in his own title (since he launched 
straight into that on returning from Maximum Security).

TRIATHLON.  Well, he's in the Avengers, I suppose.  Post Maximum 
Security, as I say, and presumably also post his cameo in Iron 
Fist/Wolverine #2.

VOID.  Assuming he's a real character and not just a manifesttion 
of the Sentry's subconscious, of course.

WARBIRD.  Same comments as Triathlon.

WATCHDOG.  The dog from issue #1; no further appearances.

A brief summary of the flashbacks, counting page numbers without 
adverts:-

Page 7 panels 1-2 show the Sentry (drawn kind of Liefeld style) 
lying in wreckage, impaled on a spike.  Obviously this is his 
"death."

Page 7 panels 3, 5-6 and page 8 panels 1-2 are the Sentry's 
funeral, with Reed Richards condemning him as a traitor in the 
eulogy.  Reed, Captain America and Tony Stark are seen among the 
"mourners."

Page 9 panel 2 is a blatantly Liefeld-parodying panel in which the 
Sentry and Scout stand together, and the Sentry's shouts "To the 
Watchwagon, Scout - we're humanity's only hope!"  That's your 
flashback.

Any thoughts on chronology welcome.

			*	*	*

Re: Sentry #5
Posted by SKleefeld on November 29, 2000 at 13:24:36:
In Reply to: Sentry #5
posted by Paul O'Brien on November 27, 2000 at 18:07:17:

Couple of thoughts, Paul...

: 2.  Although the narration keeps saying that it's as though people 
had just never noticed the Watchtower was there (and so forth), I 
rather imagine that we're heading towards something that establishes 
that the Sentry is a part of Marvel Universe history that was erased 
and that will probably be erased again after this series.  Until 
this gets clarified, I don't propose to try and work out the 
chronology for the mainstream characters appearing in the Sentry's 
flashbacks.

He wasn't erased, his memory was erased. All of this stuff is canon, 
it's just that nobody remembers it. I'm going to presume, too, that 
no one will remember this upcoming confrontation with the Void either, 
but it's still wirth logging here, I think.

: But earlier in this series the Fantastic Four appeared to be living 
in their home in Pier Four.  And by the time of Maximum Security, Pier 
Four had been destroyed and the Fantastic Four had moved into the 
Damage Control building.  (We know this, since in Black Panther 
#26 - set in the post-Maximum Security clean-up - the Fantastic Four 
are shown to have just returned home to the Damage Control building.)

Not quite true. In Black Panther #25, Vibraxas calls "the home of the 
Fantastic Four" to have Roberta answer. Why would Roberta have been 
built in Damage Control? It makes sense for her to have been rebuilt 
in Pier 4, but why Damage Control? They already have their own (human) 
receptionist. When Vibraxas calls again in #26, he gets through to 
Damage Control, which says to me that FF #36 and 37 (which occur 
back-to-back) happens between BP #25 and 26, after Maximum 
Security.

: That means that Maximum Security seems to have taken place at some 
point DURING this series.  I propose that it takes place during 
issue #3 - there's a nice clear break after the opening scene (Reed 
and Dr Strange talking about the Sentry, which directly followed on 
from issue #2).  Maximum Security can fit happily there.

Given my arguement for the Pier 4 thing (above), I would put Sentry
collectively after the "Maximum Security" stories. Since T'Challa 
shows up in MS #3, before BP #26, I would have to presume that more 
time elapses between BP #25 and 26 than those two stories would 
otherwise indicate. That would leave time for Sentry and the 
destruction of Pier 4.

Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Sentry #5
Posted by Paul O'Brien on November 29, 2000 at 14:48:00:
In Reply to: Re: Sentry #5
posted by SKleefeld on November 29, 2000 at 13:24:36:

: He wasn't erased, his memory was erased. All of this stuff is 
canon, it's just that nobody remembers it. I'm going to presume, 
too, that no one will remember this upcoming confrontation with 
the Void either, but it's still wirth logging here, I think.

The narration contains enough references to "reality shifting" 
that I'm not yet convinced any of this stuff actually happened - at 
least to the mainstream versions of the characters.  No doubt the 
rest of the miniseries will clarify the position, but I don't think 
it's worth embarking on a detailed analysis of how the funeral fits 
into everyone else's chronologies (and such forth) until it's clear 
whether it actually happened in the mainstream continuity.

: : But earlier in this series the Fantastic Four appeared to be 
living in their home in Pier Four.  And by the time of Maximum 
Security, Pier Four had been destroyed and the Fantastic Four had 
moved into the Damage Control building.  (We know this, since in 
Black Panther #26 - set in the post-Maximum Security clean-up - the 
Fantastic Four are shown to have just returned home to the Damage 
Control building.)

: Not quite true. In Black Panther #25, Vibraxas calls "the home of 
the Fantastic Four" to have Roberta answer. Why would Roberta have 
been built in Damage Control? It makes sense for her to have been 
rebuilt in Pier 4, but why Damage Control? They already have their 
own (human) receptionist. When Vibraxas calls again in #26, he gets 
through to Damage Control, which says to me that FF #36 and 37 (which 
occur back-to-back) happens between BP #25 and 26, after Maximum 
Security.

Roberta's presence in BP #25 is certainly a curio, but I really don't 
see how there can possibly be enough time between BP 25-26 for the FF 
to appear in FF3 35-37 in that space.  Vibraxas's appearances here 
seem to run through without any obvious gaps.  The clean-up from 
Maximum Security is still under way in BP 26.  Storm is still in 
Wakanda and acting as if she's only recently arrived (she left for 
Wakanda during Maximum Security, in an issue of Uncanny X-Men).

Roberta's appearance is unusual, but given that (so far as I can 
recall) the FF weren't using her in Pier Four anyway, it seems to 
make more sense that the FF dug her out of mothballs after their move 
to Damage Control's premises.  Am I misremembering, or did we ever 
actually see Roberta in Pier Four in the first place?

			*	*	*

Re: Sentry #5
Posted by SKleefeld on November 30, 2000 at 21:08:07:
In Reply to: Re: Sentry #5
posted by Paul O'Brien on November 29, 2000 at 14:48:00:

: The narration contains enough references to "reality shifting" that 
I'm not yet convinced any of this stuff actually happened - at least 
to the mainstream versions of the characters.  No doubt the rest of 
the miniseries will clarify the position, but I don't think it's 
worth embarking on a detailed analysis of how the funeral fits into 
everyone else's chronologies (and such forth) until it's clear whether 
it actually happened in the mainstream continuity.

Fair enough. Besides, I can't imagine trying to tackle this whole 
deal (flashbacks and all) without having the COMPLETE story, including 
all of this month's one-shots. Heck, I'd be tempted to talk to Jenkins 
himself if I didn't think he'd say, "It's fiction; get over it, you 
git."  :)

: Roberta's presence in BP #25 is certainly a curio, but I really 
don't see how there can possibly be enough time between BP 25-26 for 
the FF to appear in FF3 35-37 in that space.  Vibraxas's appearances 
here seem to run through without any obvious gaps.  The clean-up from 
Maximum Security is still under way in BP 26.  Storm is still in 
Wakanda and acting as if she's only recently arrived (she left for 
Wakanda during Maximum Security, in an issue of Uncanny X-Men).

OK, newly analyzed information which throws my theory out the window. 
Vibraxas calls Roberta in BP #25. The caption claims that the FF are 
out adventuring in Iron Man #35. While the text in IM #35 is vague on 
location, it clearly shows the FF taking off from a building which is 
curiously angular, almost certainly defining it as Damage Control HQ.

Also, in Sentry #2, Bob is found playing on the scaffolding of what 
very much appears to be a partially rebuilt Pier 4. Now my initial 
thought when the book came out was that this occurred much earlier, 
sometime perhaps around FF #2. But it now could very well be sometime 
long after FF #36. 

: Roberta's appearance is unusual, but given that (so far as I can 
recall) the FF weren't using her in Pier Four anyway, it seems to 
make more sense that the FF dug her out of mothballs after their 
move to Damage Control's premises.  Am I misremembering, or did we 
ever actually see Roberta in Pier Four in the first place?

We never did see Roberta in Pier 4, but I don't know why the heck 
Reed would build her in what was intended to be temporary housing. 
Why didn't he install a Roberta in the Avengers Mansion when he was 
living there?

Sean

			*	*	*

Need help with Nick Fury and Captain America...
Posted by Jeph again on November 27, 2000 at 23:37:43:

I'm trying to archive Captain Britain #11-20 right now, and I've 
run across a snag.  I need information.  Can anyone help me?

During CB #15-27, SHIELD and Captain America travel to England to 
help track down the Red Skull.  I need to find a concurrent gap in 
the chronologies of all parties involved -- a story gap for all 
concerned, where the entire SHIELD helicarrier can be diverted to 
England for at least a week's worth of comic time.

Basically, I need to find a nice, mutually empty spot in the 
chronologies of the following where I can slip a British adventure 
in:

Nick Fury
Captain America
Dum Dum Dugan
the Red Skull

and, of course, the entire SHIELD helicarrier.

The issues in question were published in January to March of 1977, 
and are all one long unbroken story -- no return trips to America 
unless absolutely necessary (and they shouldn't be).  A nice gap 
somewhere among books published in the first quarter of 1977 would 
be nice.

Any help, suggestions, or ideas would be appreciated.  Thanks!

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Need help with Nick Fury and Captain America...
Posted by Russ Chappell on November 28, 2000 at 00:10:21:
In Reply to: Need help with Nick Fury and Captain America...
posted by Jeph again on November 27, 2000 at 23:37:43:

Well, without going to the books themselves--I'll leave that to 
hardier souls--Captain America 205-207 were cover-dated Jan-Mar 
1977. There appear to be pretty sizable gaps between 203 and 204, 
and again between 214 and 215. If memory serves, there wasn't a lot 
of empty space in the run of 204 to 214.

Note that the Red Skull appears in CA 210-212, and we currently have 
Schmidt appearing in Captain Britain 16-27 before this (sometime 
between CA 186 and SVTU 10.

			*	*	*

Re: Need help with Nick Fury and Captain America...
Posted by Jeph! on November 28, 2000 at 12:30:00:
In Reply to: Re: Need help with Nick Fury and Captain America...
posted by Russ Chappell on November 28, 2000 at 00:10:21:

: > During CB #15-27, SHIELD and Captain America travel to England 
to help track down the Red Skull.

: > Basically, I need to find a nice, mutually empty spot in the 
chronologies of the following where I can slip a British adventure 
in:

: > Nick Fury
: > Captain America
: > Dum Dum Dugan
: > the Red Skull

: > and, of course, the entire SHIELD helicarrier.

: > The issues in question were published in January to March of 
1977, and are all one long unbroken story -- no return trips to 
America unless absolutely necessary (and they shouldn't be).  A 
nice gap somewhere among books published in the first quarter of 1977 
would be nice.

: Well, without going to the books themselves--I'll leave that to 
hardier souls--Captain America 205-207 were cover-dated Jan-Mar 1977. 
There appear to be pretty sizable gaps between 203 and 204, and again 
between 214 and 215. If memory serves, there wasn't a lot of empty 
space in the run of 204 to 214.

: Note that the Red Skull appears in CA 210-212, and we currently 
have Schmidt appearing in Captain Britain 16-27 before this (sometime 
between CA 186 and SVTU 10.

Upon doing a little more MCP research, I find that CB #16-27 are also 
already posted in Captain America's chronology, between CABT (whatever 
*that* is) and CA #193.  Russ, can you tell me how you came to put the 
CB issues there?  If your reasoning is solid, they can stay, but if 
you just threw them in based on the Skull's chronology then I'd like 
to suggest they be moved up to somewhere between CA #203 and 204 -- I'm 
a general stickler for keeping appearances concurrent by publishing 
date unless proved otherwise, and this difference of ten months 
(CA 193 to 203) kinda bothers me.

If your original logic prevails here, then I need only slip CB #16-27 
into Nick Fury's chronology, somewhere in here:

CA 191
M/TU 36-BTS
CA 224-BTS
Shouldn't be too hard; just have to determine on which side of M/TU 36 
they go.

However, if I get to move the CB issues up, as I'm of a mind to, my 
task for SHIELD becomes harder: I have to place the relocation of the 
SHIELD base to Britain into the following mess:
CA 224-BTS (entire issue FB to CA 198)
M/SPT 31, 32
M/TU 51
Q 1-FB
RH 3/2
DEF 47-FB
...with only the clue that M/TU 52 takes place right after CA 203 
in Cap's chronology.

It's a simpler matter for Dugan; he's either
DD 123
(CB issues)
Q 1-FB
...or...
Q 1-FB
(CB issues)
COTL 35.

Can anybody with some nice knowledge of SHIELD let me know where 
Fury has a nice story gap, in the above two messes I mentioned?

The matter of Cap's 203-204 chronology is a bit muddy, too; I can 
choose from in here:
CA 203
M/TU 52
A 150-153
A@6
A 154
SVTU 9
A 155, 156
SVTU 10-12
DEF 44
CA 204

Note that SVTU 10 is another Skull appearance, and I'm inclined to 
place the CB issues before that point...

Any input from anyone would be appreciated.  Thanks!

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Need help with Nick Fury and Captain America...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 29, 2000 at 07:29:07:
In Reply to: Re: Need help with Nick Fury and Captain America...
posted by Jeph! on November 28, 2000 at 12:30:00:

Jeph,

Russ' placement of CB 16-27 comes from page 83 of the Marvel Comics 
Index, Vol. 1, No. 8A: Heroes from Tales of Suspense, Book One: 
Captain America (December 1979), compiled by George Olshevsky.

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Need help with Nick Fury and Captain America...
Posted by Jeph! on November 29, 2000 at 10:00:20:
In Reply to: Re: Need help with Nick Fury and Captain America...
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 29, 2000 at 07:29:07:

: Russ' placement of CB 16-27 comes from page 83 of the Marvel Comics 
Index, Vol. 1, No. 8A: Heroes from Tales of Suspense, Book One: 
Captain America (December 1979), compiled by George Olshevsky.

Well, that makes my job immeasurably easier.  Thanks, Paul!  Much 
appreciated.

Coming soon: archives for Captain Britain #11-20...

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Human Fly
Posted by Jhaeman on November 29, 2000 at 02:38:09:

Hm, no entry for the Human Fly, even though his series is in the key 
and other character's appearances in his mag are listed.  Then again, 
probably no great loss :)

			*	*	*
Captain Britain #11-20 - archived!
Posted by Jeph! on November 29, 2000 at 11:47:06:

Here we go again  MCP-style chronologies for the next ten issues 
in Marvel UK's Captain Britain series.  Enjoy!

--------

Captain Britain #11  Dec. 22, 1976 (7 pages)

Characters:
Captain Britain  (Brain Braddock, last in CB #10)
James "Jamie" Braddock, Jr.  (last in CB #10)
Dr. Synne  (last in CB #10)
a young, unnamed couple

Synopsis:  Captain Britain, in the midst of a fight with angry 
townspeople determined (due to Dr. Synne's evil influence) to burn 
a young couple at the stake, thinks back on how he got into this 
mess.  He is shot and left, and as the young man he tried to save 
helps him back into town, they arrive to see the young woman about 
to be burned

Notes:  there is a flashback in this issue, to the events immediately 
proceeding it.  Jamie Braddock appears only in flashback, Doctor Synne 
only in the straightforward part of the issue, and Captain Britain in 
both.  The sequence of events is:

CB 10 / CB 11-FB / CB 11.

Backup stories: (both reprints)
Fantastic Four (10 pages, B&W)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (6 pages)

--------

Captain Britain #12  Dec. 29, 1976 (7 pages)

Characters:
Captain Britain
Dr. Synne
Mastermind (III?  see note)  (first appearance)
Jamie Braddock, Jr.
Elizabeth "Betsy" Braddock  (last in CB #10)
Dr. Ramsey, of the Mordor Research Centre  (last in CB #10)

Synopsis:  Captain Britain saves last issue's young girl from being 
burned at the stake, but is dropped into the flames himself by Dr. 
Synne, who is revealed to be controlled by the sentient computer bank 
that will become known as Mastermind.  Meanwhile, Betsy wakes up from 
her Synne-induced coma, none the worse for wear.  Dr. Ramsey notes 
that it is a disaster; Synne had ensured that she would never 
awaken  thus putting an end to Claremont's dangling subplot about 
Synne intending to brainwash her.  (Told you.)

Notes:  The Mastermind computer bank, which will go on to be a 
supporting character of CB's, should be differentiated from the three 
Masterminds on the MCP.  Introduced in 1976, he is chronologically 
Mastermind III, and Dominique Jason, the current #3, should be bumped 
up to Mastermind IV.

Backup stories: (both reprints, with new splash pages)
Fantastic Four (10 pages, B&W)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (7 pages)

--------

Captain Britain #13  Jan. 5, 1977

Characters:
Captain Britain
Dr. Synne  (dies)
Emma Collins  (first appearance)
Mastermind III

Synopsis:  Captain Britain, dropped into flames by Dr. Synne, is 
saved when he discovers that his quarterstaff can produce a force 
field.  Meanwhile Emma Collins, the Braddock Manor cleaning lady, 
enters Sir Braddock's computer lab to clean.  She unplugs the 
Mastermind computer and Dr. Synne dies  the computer was controlling 
him, feeding him his powers, and keeping his heart beating.  As he 
dies, Synne tells Captain Britain of the evil manor computer, and CB 
races home to confront it

Backup stories: (both reprints)
Fantastic Four (11 pages, B&W)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (6 pages)

--------

Captain Britain #14  Jan. 12, 1977 (7 pages)

Characters:
Captain Britain
Mastermind III
Valerie Campbell  (first appearance)
Sir James Braddock  (first appearance)
Elizabeth Braddock  (not to be confused with Elisabeth "Psylocke" 
Braddock; this is her and Brian's mother)  (first appearance)

Synopsis:  Mastermind confronts Captain Britain in the form of a 
computerized giant, retelling the events of the night of his parents' 
death.  His story, that of Brian dallying with a girl long enough for 
the computer to kill his parents with a power surge, causes CB to 
feel guilty enough to ask Mastermind to put him out of his misery for 
good

Notes:  There is a flashback this issue to the death of CB's parents.  
It takes place before CB's flashback in XCAL 36, before any of 
Mastermind III's other appearances, and features all five of the 
above characters.  In the straightforward part of the issue, however, 
only CB and Mastermind III appear.

Backup stories: (both reprints, with new splash pages)
Fantastic Four (12 pages, B&W)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (6 pages)

--------

Captain Britain #15  Jan. 19, 1977 (7 pages)

Characters:
Captain Britain
Mastermind III
Emma Collins
Nick Fury  (last in M/TU #36-BTS  see notes)
Captain America  (last in the CABT)
Chief Inspector Dai Thomas  (last in CB #5)
The Red Skull  (last in CA #186)
Betsy Braddock
Jamie Braddock, Jr.

Synopsis:  Captain Britian regains his will to live and fight evil 
when Mastermind blasts Emma Collins, who was returning for her 
dustpan.  He realizes that the giant he's been fighting is really a 
hologram, and attacks the computer instead.  Rushing Emma to the 
hospital, he leaves the manor unlocked  allowing the Red Skull to 
slip inside and gain access to the computer.  On the manor grounds, 
CB is grabbed by police and Dai Thomas decides to unmask him.  
Meanwhile, the SHIELD helicarrier arrives over London, and Nick Fury 
orders Captain America to investigate SHIELD reports on the Braddock 
manor computer.

Notes:  Chronology placing information for Captain America and the 
Red Skull courtesy of the MCP by way of the Official Marvel 
Indexes  who am I to argue with them (again)?  This issue, however, 
does not appear in either of their chronologies.  Placement for Nick 
Fury courtesy of a little extrapolation  see another thread on this 
board for my logic.

Backup stories: (both reprints)
Fantastic Four (12 pages, B&W, with a new splash page)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (6 pages)

--------

Captain Britain #16  Jan. 26, 1977 (7 pages)

Characters:
Captain Britain
Dai Thomas
Captain America
The Red Skull
Mastermind III  (see notes)

Synopsis:  Captain America intervenes in Dai's unmasking of Captain 
Britain, but they still manage to get into a traditional misunderstood-
superhero-brawl, which the Red Skull monitors from inside the 
mansion.  Finally, Captain America presents his SHIELD orders to Dai 
Thomas, and asks for Captain Britain's help in learning the secrets 
of the Mastermind computer.

Notes:  The Mastermind computer, although damaged last issue, is 
still active in this issue  the Red Skull uses it to spy on the 
Captains  and therefore it is still sentient and "alive", plotting 
against CB and granting it an "appearance".  It will remain a 
sentient entity whenever active until CB reprograms it in The 
Daredevils #2.

Backup stories:
Fantastic Four (10 pages, B&W, reprint)
the Hungry Jaws, by Gene Colan (5 pages, B&W, reprint??)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (6 pages, with a new splash page)

--------

Captain Britain #17  Feb. 2, 1977 (7 pages)

Characters:
Captain Britain
Captain America
Nick Fury
Tod Radcliffe, deputy director of STRIKE  (first appearance)
the Red Skull, and his men
Mastermind III (see notes)
Prime Minister James Callaghan  (first comic appearance)

Synopsis:  Captains Britain and America fight their way through the 
Red Skull's men to reach Braddock Manor.  Meanwhile, the Red Skull 
and his men incite revolution in the working class of London, and 
Nick Fury and Tod Radcliffe, the deputy director of STRIKE (Special 
Tactical Reserve for International Key Emergencies; Britain's answer 
to SHIELD), meet with the Prime Minister to discuss the Skull's 
swelling Neo-Nazi popularity.  Radcliffe is secretly working for the 
Skull, however, and gets orders to bomb the manor to the ground  just 
as the Captains find themselves lured into a cell in the manor 
basement, and gassed

Notes:  The Mastermind computer still lurks in the foreground, and 
I maintain that until it is reprogrammed, it exists as a sentient 
character and should be archived as such.  Luckily for the MCP, it 
gets blown up in about two issues.

Also, the Nick Fury backup strip in this issue is misprinted  pages 
are shuffled around, dropped or replaced by other pages from 
different issues.  Because of this, Marvel UK re-printed the entire 
color section of CB #17  the Captain Britain and corrected SHIELD 
stories  as a bonus pullout section inside the next issue, #18.

Backup stories: (both reprints)
Fantastic Four (~10 pages, B&W)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (6 pages, see notes)

--------

Captain Britain #18  Feb. 9, 1977 (7 pages)

Characters:
Captain Britian
Captain America
the Red Skull
Mastermind III
Tod Radcliffe
Nick Fury
Betsy Braddock
Jamie Braddock, Jr.

Synopsis:  The Red Skull incapacitates the Captains, and orders 
Radcliffe to begin his bombing run of the manor.  Nick Fury, not 
trusting Radcliffe, decides to come along for the ride, but Radcliffe 
traps him in the passenger seat of the plane, helpless.  The Skull 
steals records from the Mastermind computer and gloats at the 
Captains, telling CB that he holds his family prisoner.  The captains 
break out of their cell to attack him too late.  The Skull teleports 
away and the manor explodes in flames

Notes:  As stated before, this issue contained a pullout section of 
the color pages from issue #17, featuring a corrected copy of the 
SHIELD reprint story.

Backup stories: (all reprints)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (6 pages, see notes)
Fantastic Four (11 pages, B&W)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (6 pages, with a new splash page)

--------

Captain Britain #19  Feb. 16, 1977 (7 pages)

Characters:
Nick Fury
Tod Radcliffe
Commander Lance Hunter, director of STRIKE  (first appearance)
Courtney Ross  (last in CB #8)
Jacko Tanner  (last in CB #8)
"Dum Dum" Dugan  (last in DD #123)

Synopsis:  Captain Britain and Captain America are presumed dead.  
Nick Fury mourns them, then thinks back to how he defeated and 
killed Tod Radcliffe in the STRIKE bomber jet.  Lance Hunter shows 
up and introduces himself, and the two come upon Dum Dum Dugan 
experimenting with SHIELD life model decoys of the Captains, to no 
avail.  Meanwhile, Brian's friends watch the grim news reports of 
Captain Britain's apparent death, and Courtney worries about where 
Brian is

Notes:  There is a flashback in this issue, for the characters of 
Nick Fury and Tod Radcliffe, that overlaps with the ending of issue 
#18.  The sequence for both is:

CB 18 / CB 19-FB / CB 18 / CB 19-FB

Nick Fury follows this up with an appearance in the straightforward 
part of this issue, while Radcliffe does not, appearing in flashback 
only.

Also, I have placed "Dum Dum" Dugan's appearance here through some 
deductive reasoning based on the "official" placement of the CB 
issues in Captain America's chronology.

Finally, it should be noted that this is the only issue of Captain 
Britain's series in which he himself does not appear (and neither 
does Captain America or the Red Skull, if you'll notice).

Backup stories: (both reprints)
Fantastic Four (5 pages, B&W, with a new splash page)
Fantastic Four (6 pages, B&W)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (6 pages)

--------

Captain Britain #20  Feb. 23, 1977 (7 pages)

Characters:
the Red Skull, and his men
Nick Fury
Lance Hunter, and his STRIKE agents
Prime Minister James Callaghan
Captain Britain (hey look, everybody, he's alive!)
Captain America
Betsy Braddock
Jamie Braddock, Jr.

Synopsis:  While the Red Skull vows to destroy Britain, the Prime 
Minister chews out Fury and Hunter.  STRIKE readies itself, waiting 
for any report of Nazi activity.  Meanwhile, Captain Britain and 
Captain America are revealed to be alive, hiding out so that the 
Skull thinks they're dead.  They locate Brian's brother and sister 
and free them from the Skull's men.

Backup stories: (both reprints)
Fantastic Four (10 pages, B&W)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (6 pages, with a new splash page)

--------

Here's the area where I tally up the above appearances into MCP 
format.  In this case, though, I'm combining it with my previous 
tally of CB #1-10, so that you only have to look at just this one 
when updating the MCP.

Therefore, voila the combined tally for Captain Britain #1-20.  In 
the case of existing entries, all individual changes are *starred.  
In the case of new entries, all listings are new by definition, so 
only the phrase "new entry" is *starred.

SIR JAMES BRADDOCK
*(NEW ENTRY)
CB 14  FB

JAMIE BRADDOCK (name change to James "Jamie" Braddock Jr.?)
(additions to your existing entry)
(might the above name change be considered?  His father  archived 
above  is James Braddock also, and this change may help clear up 
any confusion.)
*CB 8  BTS
*CB 9
*CB 10
*CB 11  FB
*CB 12
*CB 15
*CB 18
*CB 20
XCAL 21
 and so on

ELIZABETH BRADDOCK
*(NEW ENTRY)
(not Psylocke  this is Betsy Braddock's mother, confusingly also 
named Elizabeth.)
CB 14  FB

PRIME MINISTER JAMES CALLAGHAN
*(NEW ENTRY)
CB 17
CB 20

CAPTAIN AMERICA  Steven Rogers
(additions to your existing entry)
from
CABT
*CB 15
CB 16
CB 17
CB 18
*(remove CB 19)
CB 20
and so on (CB 21-27 already archived).

CAPTAIN BRITAIN  Brian Braddock
(additions to your existing entry)
*CB 14  FB
XCAL 36  FB
*CB 1  FB
*CB 2  FB
CB 1
CB 2
CB 3
CB 4
CB 5
CB 6
CB 7
CB 8
CB 9
CB 10
*CB 11  FB
CB 11
CB 12
CB 13
CB 14
CB 15
CB 16
CB 17
CB 18
*(remove CB 19)
CB 20
and so on (CB 21-39 already archived).

VALERIE CAMPBELL
*(NEW ENTRY)
CB 14-FB

EMMA COLLINS
*(NEW ENTRY)
CB 13
CB 15

DR. SYNNE
*(NEW ENTRY; archived under "D" as Dr. Synne is his codename, not 
a title)
CB 8
CB 9
CB 10
CB 11
CB 12
CB 13

TIMOTHY "DUM DUM" DUGAN
(additions to your existing entry)
from
DD 123
*CB 19
Q 1-FB
and so on

KATE FRASER
*(NEW ENTRY)
CB 5
CB 8

COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" FURY
(additions to your existing entry)
from
M/TU 36-BTS
*CB 15
*CB 17
*CB 18
*CB 19  FB
*CB 18
*CB 19  FB
*CB 19
*CB 20
CA 224  BTS
and so on

COMMANDER LANCE HUNTER
*(NEW ENTRY)
CB 19
CB 20

HURRICANE  Albert Potter
*(NEW ENTRY)
(should be listed as Hurricane I; bumping the current one to 
Hurricane II.)
CB 7  FB
CB 3
CB 4
CB 5
CB 6
CB 7

DR. NEIL MacKENZIE
*(NEW ENTRY)
CB 5

MASTERMIND III
*(NEW ENTRY)
(should be listed as Mastermind III, bumping Dominique Jason to 
Mastermind IV.)
CB 14  FB
CB 12
CB 13
CB 14
CB 15
CB 16
CB 17
CB 18

MERLIN
(additions to existing entry)
from 
ST 134
*CB 1  FB
*CB 2  FB
*CB 2
XCAL: P
 and so on

PSYLOCKE  Elisabeth "Betsy" Braddock
(additions to your existing entry)
(technically, Betsy's full name is spelled "EliSabeth", with an S, 
to distinguish her from her mother, archived above.  You might want 
to consider this name change in the MCP.)
*CB 8
*CB 9
*CB 10
*CB 12
*CB 15
*CB 18
*CB 20
NM@2
 and so on

TOD RADCLIFFE
*(NEW ENTRY)
CB 17
CB 18
CB 19  FB
CB 18
CB 19  FB

DR. RAMSEY
*(NEW ENTRY)
CB 10
CB 12

the REAVER  Joshua Stragg
*(NEW ENTRY)
CB 1  FB
CB 2  FB
CB 1
CB 2

the RED SKULL  Johann Schmidt
(additions to your existing entry)
from
CA 186
*CB 15
CB 16
CB 17
CB 18
*(remove CB 19)
CB 20
and so on (CB 21-27 already archived).

ROMA
(additions to your existing entry)
*CB 1  FB
*CB 2  FB
*CB 2
CB2 14
 and so on

COURTNEY ROSS
(additions to your existing entry)
*CB 3
*CB 4
*CB 5
*CB 8
*CB 19
SSM&CB 238
 and so on

JACKO TANNER
*(NEW ENTRY)
CB 3
CB 4
CB 5
CB 8
CB 19

DAI THOMAS
(additions to your existing entry)
M/PRV 3
*CB 3
*CB 5
*CB 15
*CB 16
UX 127
 and so on

DR. TRAVIS
*(NEW ENTRY)
CB 1 - FB

the VIXEN
(additions to your existing entry)
*CB 3  BTS
*CB 8  BTS
XCAL 21
 and so on

SANDY YORK
*(NEW ENTRY)
CB 3
CB 4  BTS
CB 5

--------

And thus ends part two.  Coming soon, archives for issues 21-30 and 
31-39, followed by the Captain's run in Super Spider-Man.  Following 
that, I may need a Hulk expert's help to archive the Hulk Comics 
run, as it contains several UK-original Hulk tales as well as the 
CB/Black Knight story arc

I hope this information is useful.  Please pipe up if anyone needs 
clarification on anything.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Captain Britain #11-20 - archived!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 04, 2000 at 20:50:10:
In Reply to: Captain Britain #11-20 - archived!
posted by Jeph! on November 29, 2000 at 11:47:06:\

Jeph,

Any idea how much Marvel time passes between CB 1 and CB 20 and 
where continuity gaps occur (between CB 10 and CB11-FB?)?  Also, 
are there any temporal references in the run that might help us 
place the series on a "real" calendar?  I have CB 15-20 etc. as 
occurring in June on the Avengers Year-By-Year Calendar.

Thanks.

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Captain Britain #11-20 - archived!
Posted by Jeph! on December 06, 2000 at 10:36:01:
In Reply to: Re: Captain Britain #11-20 - archived!
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 04, 2000 at 20:50:10:

: Any idea how much Marvel time passes between CB 1 and CB 20 and 
where continuity gaps occur (between CB 10 and CB11-FB?)?  Also, 
are there any temporal references in the run that might help us place 
the series on a "real" calendar?  I have CB 15-20 etc. as occurring 
in June on the Avengers Year-By-Year Calendar.

Well, I can't tell you much off the top of my head, but I will go 
back and do some lookin' for you.  I'll tell you this much: CB used 
the hook of the cliffhanger a LOT.  Stories generally led right into 
one another with no pauses or gaps.  CB #8-28 take place over two 
weeks at most.  CB's battle with Dr. Synne led to him running 
straight home to battle Mastermind, then straight out of the house 
to encounter Dai Thomas and Captain America.  And I'll tell you, 
there was snow on the ground for most of those isues...

I'll go do some more research -- and maybe this is something I should 
start adding to my archives -- and I'll try to figure out some Marvel 
Time references and estimates for you.  But if it does turn out, as 
I suspect, that the CB/CA/Red Skull adventure takes place in a snowy 
season, maybe we *should* look into moving it up between CA #203 and 
204, like I was discussing before ... what month do *they* take place 
in?
	-Jeph!
PS -- is this Avengers year-by-year calendar of yours available 
online?  I'm curious to have a look...

			*	*	*

Re: Captain Britain #11-20 - archived!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 07, 2000 at 21:11:08:
In Reply to: Re: Captain Britain #11-20 - archived!
posted by Jeph! on December 06, 2000 at 10:36:01:

: : Jeph,<p>: : Any idea how much Marvel time passes between CB 1 and 
CB 20 and where continuity gaps occur (between CB 10 and CB11-FB?)?  
Also, are there any temporal references in the run that might help us 
place the series on a "real" calendar?  I have CB 15-20 etc. as 
occurring in June on the Avengers Year-By-Year Calendar.

: Well, I can't tell you much off the top of my head, but I will go 
back and do some lookin' for you.  I'll tell you this much: CB used 
the hook of the cliffhanger a LOT.  Stories generally led right into 
one another with no pauses or gaps.  CB #8-28 take place over two 
weeks at most.  CB's battle with Dr. Synne led to him running straight 
home to battle Mastermind, then straight out of the house to 
encounter Dai Thomas and Captain America.  And I'll tell you, there 
was snow on the ground for most of those isues...

: I'll go do some more research -- and maybe this is something I 
should start adding to my archives -- and I'll try to figure out 
some Marvel Time references and estimates for you.  But if it does 
turn out, as I suspect, that the CB/CA/Red Skull adventure takes 
place in a snowy season, maybe we *should* look into moving it up 
between CA #203 and 204, like I was discussing before ... what month 
do *they* take place in?

: 	-Jeph!
: PS -- is this Avengers year-by-year calendar of yours available 
online?  I'm curious to have a look...

CA 203 occurs in November; CA 204 in December.  Hmmm.

The Avengers Year-By-Year Calendar currently covers the first ten 
years (Marvel time) of existence of Earth's Mightiest Heroes (about 
the first 250 issues of volume 1, plus all other Avengers appearances 
during that time).  It can be found on Van Plexico's Avengers 
Assemble! website (www.avengersassemble.org).  Thanks to our pal, 
Lord Zorn, I've learned that it needs some selective editing, and 
someday I'll get around to Year Eleven...

Thanks for checking on continuity and temporal references in CB.  
Sometimes these references turn out to be "topical" (set in the 
season/year of the reader for the purpose of literary relevance I 
suppose), but sometimes they can provide a useful tool for relative 
chronological placement if other factors don't get in the way.

Paul

