Assorted Thoughts
Posted by Jhaeman on December 01, 2000 at 02:25:47:

This is a great resource; I'm very impressed.  I have a few minor 
comments/suggestions:
  1.  You may wish to clarify in the FAQ that the site (I assume) 
contains chronology only from comics published after FF #1 in 1961; 
thus, old Torch or Namor stories before that time won't be included.  
I'm not sure, but I think the "Daring Mystery Comics" listed for the 
Blue Diamon were published before this period and perhaps should be 
removed.
  2.  Probably the most important factor in deciding whether some 
appearances should be included (for example, Spider-Man's appearnace 
in G.I. Joe and the Transformers) is whether stories definitely in 
continuity reference that appearance or whether "official" 
publications, such as the Official Handbook or Indexes list it.  
Sometimes it may just have to be a judgment call.
  3.  It may worth while to gradually include a one paragraph 
description of characters for the purposes of aiding chronologists 
in telling different versions apart.
  4.  I'd be very careful in allowing in non-U.S. comic versions in 
the chronology (such as the U.K. versions).  This is not from 
nationalism :) but the fact that dozens of countries around the world 
published original Marvel comics, including countries like Brazil.  
If we include some, we should include all, and this could lead to 
major problems.  Most of these foreign versions are unavailable, and 
therefore frustrating to people who do see them listed as appearances, 
and it seems that comic creators don't consider them in continuity 
either.
  5.  It may be easier to place flashbacks and other appearances in 
the list if certain milestones are indicated next to particular 
issues.  Guideposts such as ("Peter marries Mary Jane") or "First Use 
of Black Costume") could speed up the process of telling where (and 
when) an event occurred.
  6.  Last, and definitely least, any chance of seeing the Doomsman, 
the Faceless One, and the Petrified Man from the early Astonishing 
Tales?

Jhaeman

			*	*	*

Assorted thoughts
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 03, 2000 at 16:18:42:
In Reply to: Assorted Thoughts
posted by Jhaeman on December 01, 2000 at 02:25:47:

:   4.  I'd be very careful in allowing in non-U.S. comic versions 
in the chronology (such as the U.K. versions).  This is not from 
nationalism :) but the fact that dozens of countries around the world 
published original Marvel comics, including countries like Brazil.  
If we include some, we should include all, and this could lead to 
major problems.  Most of these foreign versions are unavailable, 
and therefore frustrating to people who do see them listed as 
appearances, and it seems that comic creators don't consider them 
in continuity either.

I agree with you in general - the original works of Marvel Italia 
are of little concern to mainstream fandom.  But the UK ones are an 
exception, since they've been expressly brought into mainstream 
Marvel continuity through books like Excalibur, and some of the key 
books have been reprinted for the American market.  Captain Britain 
is indisputably a Marvel Universe comic, even if it was never 
published in America.

The notoriously awful Marvel UK line from the early nineties is 
emphatically canon as well.  Those books were created by the UK 
office for the American market, and Marvel UK actually tried to 
stop them being imported into the UK (so as to boost sales of the 
British anthology title which was going to reprint edited versions 
of the stories).  Clearly I wouldn't suggest indexing the handful 
of original UK Spider-Man stories floating around in books like 
Spider-Man & Zoids, but in general, the UK stuff counts.

			*	*	*

Re: Assorted thoughts
Posted by Jhaeman on December 07, 2000 at 04:34:11:
In Reply to: Assorted thoughts
posted by Paul O'Brien on December 03, 2000 at 16:18:42:

I 'spose we should also include the lovely and talented Endotherm 
(a fairly pathetic mix of Captain Cold and Blaze) from Iron Man # 136 
and Ace (a gangster with the supernatural ability to dodge punches) 
from Spect. Spider-Man Annual #6 (and one previous appearance, where,
I'm not sure).

			*	*	*

Re: Assorted Thoughts
Posted by David Smith on December 04, 2000 at 07:19:28:
In Reply to: Assorted Thoughts
posted by Jhaeman on December 01, 2000 at 02:25:47:

:   6.  Last, and definitely least, any chance of seeing the 
Doomsman, the Faceless One, and the Petrified Man from the early 
Astonishing Tales?

I don't recall the other two off hand, but if you are refering to 
the Astonishing Tales Ka-zar strip when discussing the Petrified Man, 
then the answer is yes, he's already covered under the Garokk 
(sp?) entry.

			*	*	*

Askani'Son #1-4
Posted by Jeff Howse on December 03, 2000 at 14:14:08:

Hi!  This is my first time attempting a chronology but here goes.

*ALIYA (This is Cable's future wife and I couldn't find her anywhere 
in the MCP but she does appear several times in Cable's regular 
series, mostly in flashbacks.)
ASKANISON 1
ASKANISON 2
ASKANISON 3
ASKANISON 4

APOCALYPSE
C&P 1
C&P 2
C&P 3
C&P 4
*ASKANISON 1 - BTS
*ASKANISON 2 - BTS
*ASKANISON 3 - BTS
*ASKANISON 4 - BTS (These I wasn't sure about either.  He doesn't 
appear since he's dead by this time, but the world is in decadence 
due to his rule and his tyranny is mentioned several times.  Also 
Stryfe is trying to bring about his resurrection throughout the 
series.)

BLAQUESMITH
X:P 1
X:P 2
X:P 3
*ASKANISON 1 (This I'm not sure about since I don't have the X-Men: 
Phoenix series, but I did look at Phoenix III's chronology and X:P 
occurs chronologically before X:C&P, so I'm assuming Askani'son 
occurs after.)
*ASKANISON 2
*ASKANISON 4

CH'VAYRE
C2 50
C2 51
C2 52
C2 53
*ASKANISON 1 (This one I also need help with.  I own Cable 51, and 
he appears younger than in Askani'son but that could be artistic 
license.  I can't find a reference in Cable 51 as to when he came 
into the past so it could've been either before Askani'son or after.  
If someone has any of the other Cable issues where he appears, maybe 
they can shed a little more light.)
*ASKANISON 2
*ASKANISON 3
*ASKANISON 4

*COLUMBUS
ASKANISON 3
ASKANISON 4

*FOSSIL
ASKANISON 1

*HAIGHT, TRIBUNE (Tribune is his title.)
ASKANISON 1
ASKANISON 2
ASKANISON 3
ASKANISON 4

*MARMELZAT
ASKANISON 2

PHOENIX III/RACHEL SUMMERS
C&P 1
C&P 2
C&P 3
C&P 4
*ASKANISON 1
*ASKANISON 2
*ASKANISON 3
*ASKANISON 4
C2 23
UX -1
C2 65
C2 71
C2 82

*PORUS, 'STRATOR
ASKANISON 2

*PROFESSOR (Couldn't find him in the MCP either but he appears in 
several issues of Cable also.  He appears to be a sentient computer 
program that may or may not be a part of Cable.  Does this count as 
a character? If he is somewhere in the MCP and I just overlooked him, 
I believe these appearances should be after all Cable issues.  When 
Nathan first "meets" Professor in Askani'son #1, Nathan asks him if 
he can call him Professor and Professor replies, "You always have" as 
if he already has had a relationship with Nathan.)
ASKANISON 1
ASKANISON 2
ASKANISON 3
ASKANISON 4

STRYFE
*ASKANISON 1 (This is a guess because I haven't seen the flashback 
in X-Force 73.)
*ASKANISON 2
*ASKANISON 3
*ASKANISON 4
XFOR 73-FB
XFOR 17-FB
C2 25

SUMMERS, NATHAN CHRISTOPHER CHARLES
C&P 1
C&P 2
M/VS 1/5-FB
C&P 3
C&P 4
*ASKANISON 1
*ASKANISON 2
*ASKANISON 3
*ASKANISON 4

TETHERBLOOD
*ASKANISON 1
*ASKANISON 2
*ASKANISON 3
*ASKANISON 4
C2 43-FB

*UMBRIDGE, 'STRATOR ('Strator I believe is short for administrator)
ASKANISON 1
ASKANISON 2
ASKANISON 4

ZERO
*ASKANISON 1
*ASKANISON 2
*ASKANISON 3
*ASKANISON 4
XFOR 17-FB
C 2-FB
NM 86

Aliyah, Columbus, Fossil, Tribune Haight, Marmelzat, 'strator Porus, 
Professor, and 'strator Umbridge are new characters to the MCP.  
Asterisks denote new entries.  If there's something I did wrong, or 
should have done, etc., let me know so I can make improvements in the 
future.  I hope this helps!

Jeff

			*	*	*

Re: Askani'Son #1-4
Posted by Russ Chappell on December 03, 2000 at 15:31:17:
In Reply to: Askani'Son #1-4
posted by Jeff Howse on December 03, 2000 at 14:14:08:

> Aliyah, Columbus, Fossil, Tribune Haight, Marmelzat, 'strator 
Porus, Professor, and 'strator Umbridge are new characters to the 
MCP.  Asterisks denote new entries.  If there's something I did 
wrong, or should have done, etc., let me know so I can make 
improvements in the future.  I hope this helps!

Thanks, Jeff.

1) We need some information about the plot of each issue. One 
paragraph per issue is usually sufficient, but if you feel led 
to provide more, that's great. We use this to help us place other 
stories in a character's chronology.

2) Please note for the future that analysis of an issue requires 
telling us the characters that are in each issue, as opposed to 
presenting new chronologies for the characters in the issue. Catch 
the distinction? Using clues in the stories, you can suggest placement 
for the story, but it's more important at this stage to analyze the 
issues, rather than the characters.

Example:

ASKANISON 1
Characters: Aliya, Apocalypse-BTS (dead, but Stryfe is trying to 
resurrect him), Blaquesmith, Ch'Vayre, Fossil, Tribune, Phoenix III, 
Professor, Stryfe, Nathan Summers, Tetherblood, Umbridge, Zero
[Plot Description]
Analysis: I believe this story falls between Cyclops & Pheonix #4 
and Phoenix's appearance in C2 #23 because.....

and so on.

In the case of Askanison, we probably don't need that kind of work, 
because the story appears to be rather straightforward, but you did 
ask how to do this in the future, so....

			*	*	*

Re: Askani'Son #1-4
Posted by Jeff Howse on December 03, 2000 at 21:24:53:
In Reply to: Re: Askani'Son #1-4
posted by Russ Chappell on December 03, 2000 at 15:31:17:

Thanks for the tips, Russ and thanks for the confirmation on X-Men: 
Phoenix, Paul.  On my next try, I'll make it a little more like Russ' 
suggestions.  Hopefully I can help with more of the "gap" books.

			*	*	*

Re: Askani'Son #1-4
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 03, 2000 at 16:22:31:
In Reply to: Askani'Son #1-4
posted by Jeff Howse on December 03, 2000 at 14:14:08:

: *ASKANISON 1 (This I'm not sure about since I don't have the 
X-Men: Phoenix series, but I did look at Phoenix III's chronology 
and X:P occurs chronologically before X:C&P, so I'm assuming 
Askani'son occurs after.)

Correct.  X-Men: Phoenix depicts the arrival of Rachel Summers (or 
rather, it now seems, a divergent Rachel Summers) in that timeline 
and the formation of the Askani.  Askani'son doesn't happen until 
decades later.

			*	*	*

Aliya's already listed
Posted by Paulo C. on December 09, 2000 at 03:01:53:
In Reply to: Askani'Son #1-4
posted by Jeff Howse on December 03, 2000 at 14:14:08:

: *ALIYA (This is Cable's future wife and I couldn't find her 
anywhere in the MCP but she does appear several times in Cable's 
regular series, mostly in flashbacks.)
: ASKANISON 1
: ASKANISON 2
: ASKANISON 3
: ASKANISON 4

She appears on the MCP as Jenskot, the name she used in early Cable 
stories.

PC

			*	*	*

Storm Limited Series Analysis
Posted by Jhaeman on December 04, 2000 at 05:35:53:

Kay, heres the Storm limited series from the second gap.  This 
is my first try at this, so let me know if its right.  I didnt 
include page numbers with the flashbacks because none of the pages 
are numbered (must have been low on ink, eh?).

STORM # 1

Characters Appearing in Main Story
Storm, Cable, Wolverine, Forge, Professor X, Jean Gray, Cyclops, 
Unidentified X-Man in white t-shirt with red circle & X

Behind-the-Scenes
Mikhail Rasputin (though one arm is visible for one panel as he 
pulls Storm through the dimensional vortex).

Characters in Flashback #1 (Storm rips out Sarahs heart, sees 
Mikhail Rasputin transfer the Morlocks out of the tunnels).
Storm
Sarah the Morlock
Mikhail Rasputin

Characters in Flashback #2 (Cable finds Storms body)
Cable
Dead Body Believed to be Storm

Synopsis
The story opens at 8:38 pm on a Sunday with Cable descending into 
the Morlock Tunnels and finding a body in Storms clothes; the head 
has been crushed by a heavy rock and the face is not visible.  The 
story then jumps back to 9:20 am on the same day.  Storm finds Logan 
and tells him that she is upset about murdering Sarah, the Morlock 
girl when there was a bomb attached to her heart (this is when 
flashback #1 occurs).  She also mentions that the Morlocks leader 
Mikhail Rasputin, had transferred them out of the flooded tunnels.  
A few hours later, at Noon on the same day, Storm talks with Cable 
about Sarahs death and Cable mentions a Morlock ritual called the 
Ceremony of Light.  He instructs her on how to make it work.  At 
3 pm Storm talks to Forge via video-phone.  At 6:27 PM, Wolverine 
talks to Professor X about Storms difficulties.  At 7:20 pm, Storm 
is shown traveling in the Morlock tunnels.  She begins the Ceremony 
of Light.  At 8:27 pm, Cable reaches for Storm telepathically from a 
distance; simultaneously a dimensional door opens in the Morlock 
Tunnels and a hand reaches out for Storm; she reacts by shooting 
lightning from her fingertips which brings the tunnel walls down.  
The scene then shifts to 9:51 PM where Cable returns to the mansion 
and tells the other X-Men that Storm is dead.  One panel flashback 
to finding her body (same as where this issue opens).  The issue 
ends with Storm realizing shes in another dimension.

PLACEMENT
  Im not up on the X-Men so Im not exactly sure where to place it, 
but it shouldnt be too difficult.  It takes place after Storm killed 
Sarah in the Gene Nation episode (apparently Sarah is the name of the 
Morlock as the girl, and Marrow is the name when she returned as an 
adult killer). This issue all takes place in one day, but there are a 
few three-hour gaps where other events could happen.  Logan is 
considered team leader, and the group is stationed at Westchester 
mansion.  At the mansion are Cable, Wolverine, Jean Gray, Cyclops, 
Professor X,and one other unidentified figure.

STORM # 2

CHARACTERS APPEARING IN MAIN STORY
Storm, Cable, Cyclops, Jean Gray, Callisto, Mikhail Rasputin

CHARACTERS IN FLASHBACK #1 (Storms body, shown crushed by rocks)
The body believed to be Storm, crushed under a rock.

CHARACTERS IN FLASHBACK #2 (Storm as a young girl in East Harlem)
Storm 

CHARACTERS IN FLASHBACK #3 (Storm buried alive when her parents were 
killed by a bomb in Egypt)
Storm 

CHARACTERS IN FLASHBACK #4 (Storm as a thief on the streets of Cairo)
Storm 

CHARACTERS IN FLASHBACK #5 (Storm when she first joined the X-Men)
Storm 

CHARACTERS IN FLASHBACK #6(Storm killing Sarah)
Storm
Sarah the Morlock

SYNOPSIS
This issue has two main stories.
Storm finds herself at the bottom of a hill in another dimension. 
She avoids acid rain and fights her way up the hill by defeating 
some strange creatures.  She reaches the top to find that Mikhail 
Rasputin has built a castle upon the top of the hill and placed 
creatures on the bottom; those who reach the top have proven 
themselves the fittest.  He invites her to stay and be his consort.  
He also reveals that he was the one who pulled her through the 
dimensional door.
Back on Earth, at 11:30 pm (presumably on the same day as last issue) 
Cable and Cyclops talk about Storms death. (Flashback #1)  At 
12:15 a.m., Cable, Cyclops, and Jean Gray talk more about Storm.  
Jean Gray reminisces about Storms life (Flashbacks 2-6).

PLACEMENT
  For Storm, this issue must directly follow #1 in the series because 
she is trapped in the other dimension for the entire issue.  The 
X-Men are based at Westchester.

STORM #3

CHARACTERS APPEARING IN MAIN STORY
Storm, Cable, Forge, Mikhail Rasputin, Pain, Snow, Loss, Glass, 
Charm, Callisto

CHARACTERS IN FLASHBACK #1 (Storm killing Sarah)
Storm
Sarah

CHARACTERS IN FLASHBACK #2 (Storm visitingan impoverished African 
community)
Storm

SYNOPSIS
At 1 AM at Westchester, Cable contacts Forge on the vid-phone in 
the Monitor room and tells him that Storm is dead.
Storm stands at the top of the hill considering her options 
(Flashback # 1 and 2).  She is attacked by the denizens of the hill 
but defeats them with lightning.  Mikhail Rasputin again tries to 
convince her to stay.  He introduces her to the new elite members of 
Gene Nation, inhuman creatures named Pain, Snow, Loss, Glass,and 
Charm and tells Storm that they are going to plant a bomb to destroy 
X-Factor HQ.  He also tells her that time passes faster in this 
dimension and that many of the people she knew on Earth are already 
dead.  Storm and Gene Nation battle, and then the battle is joined 
by Callisto.  Suddenly the dimensional vortex begins to open and 
everyone realizes that Mikhail Rasputin does not have real control 
over the transfer.  Callisto reveals that Rasputin had planted the 
body that the X-Men believe is Storm.  Storm threatens to kill 
Rasputin if he doesnt take her to Earth, but Gene Nation threatens 
to bring the bomb through any door that he opens.

PLACEMENT
For Storm, this issue must proceed directly from #2 and the very end 
of #1 because she is still trapped in another dimension.  Note that 
time passes differently in this realm.  For Cable and Forge, please 
note the times given; all of the events on Earth have occurred in 
less than a 24 hour period.

STORM #4

CHARACTERS APPEARING IN MAIN STORY
Storm, Callisto, Mikhail Rasputin, Pain, Snow, Loss, Glass, Charm, 
Cable, Iceman, Wolverine, Beast, Cyclops, Jean Gray, Black Beast?, 
Sarah (Marrow)

SYNOPSIS
  Storm forces Mikhail Rasputin to extend his power and transfer 
everyone on the entire hill into the regular Earth dimension.  At 
3:00 AM, Cable is in the Morlock Tunnels.  He decides to recreate 
what was happening when Storm disappeared, and creates another 
Ceremony of Light.  Just as this happens, Storm and everyone in 
the Hill dimension appear in the tunnels.  Storm explodes the 
bomb harmlessly.  Cable knocks out Mikhail Rasputin.  Callistos 
face is permanently scarred in the battle, but she escapes into the 
tunnels and Storm tells Cable to call for assistance to help capture 
the other denizens of the Hill.  Callisto stumbles down the tunnel 
and runs into a Morlock she calles Marrow, who is probably Sarah 
because they talk about how Storm tore her heart out; she says she 
has another.  Mikhail Rasputin escapes in a dimensional door. The 
other X-Men appear to help capture the Hill denizens and Storm tells 
the prisoners that they will be sent to an African village to help 
rebuild it.  In another part of the tunnels, the Black Beast is 
depicted and captions tell us that Rasputin was working under his 
control and that Gene Nation were his creatures (I have no idea who 
this is; it looks just like the Beast and may have been impersonating 
him the X-Men fight scene against Gene Nation).  At midday the next 
day, Storm introduces her new uniform.

PLACEMENT
  For Storm, all but the last two pages of this story should be 
listed right after # 2 and 3.  There is several hours space between 
the end of her battle with Gene Nation and the introduction of her 
new costume (captions read Midday and Cable says he was up all 
night finding Storm).

			*	*	*

The 6-month X-gap
Posted by BramB on December 04, 2000 at 11:01:47:

From "Maximum Security", it seems the X-titles and the rest of the 
Marvel universe titles are "in sync" again.

Was there a 6 month gap in those other titles? I certainly didn't 
notice it in the few titles i've read.

If the gap was in all marvel universe titles, where? And if not, 
which issues took place during the gap?

			*	*	*

Re: The 6-month X-gap
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 04, 2000 at 11:34:36:
In Reply to: The 6-month X-gap
posted by BramB on December 04, 2000 at 11:01:47:

: If the gap was in all marvel universe titles, where? And if not, 
which issues took place during the gap?

It's only the X-books which skipped forwards six months between 
issues - although I wouldn't take the "six months" figure too 
literally, given the flexibility of Marvel time.

The answer to how they're back in synch with the rest of the Marvel 
Universe would probably be that before the six month gap, they were 
lagging behind.  So they weren't in synch before the gap.  The Marvel 
Universe is almost never exactly in synch, save for crossovers like 
Maximum Security.  And even then there were some books that didn't 
play, ranging from Deadpool and X-Man up to X-Force and the Fantastic 
Four.

			*	*	*

Nefarius
Posted by Dr Bruce Banner on December 06, 2000 at 19:41:03:

I was just reading over the chronology for Lloyd Bloch- Moonstone I/
Nefarius. In Captain America 171 Moonstone is standing triumphant 
over Captain America and the Falcon. I don't have 172 or 173, but 
I don't get how he isn't in either. By the way on Moonstone I's 
chronology it is listed as CA 279-FB when it should be CA379-FB. 
Also right before that should be the listing for H2 229 where it 
originally shows Karla Sofen and how she took the Moonstone of Lloyd 
though the CA379-FB is valid as well since it shows him getting the 
Nefaria-type powers.

Can anyone tel me if Moonstone I is in CA 172 and 173? 

Thanks
DrBruceBanner

			*	*	*

Re: Nefarius
Posted by Michel Racaud on December 09, 2000 at 11:02:00:
In Reply to: Nefarius
posted by Dr Bruce Banner on December 06, 2000 at 19:41:03:

: Can anyone tel me if Moonstone I is in CA 172 and 173? 

He's effectively in Cap #172, but not in #173.

			*	*	*

Wolverine in Uncanny X-Men #177 ?
Posted by OnionMan on December 11, 2000 at 02:36:29:

Hi!

According to the listing for Wolverine, he does not appear in UXM 
#177... But he is very much on the cover of that issue... am I 
missing something?

			*	*	*

Re: Wolverine in Uncanny X-Men #177 ?
Posted by Michel Racaud on December 11, 2000 at 05:32:30:
In Reply to: Wolverine in Uncanny X-Men #177 ?
posted by OnionMan on December 11, 2000 at 02:36:29:

In this issue Mystique fights X-Men robots provided by Arcade, 
including one of Wolverine, but Logan effectively doesn't appear

			*	*	*

POWER PACK: PEER PRESSURE #1-4
Posted by PaxHouse on December 11, 2000 at 12:57:45:

First of all; I wish to say that, in spite of certain critiques
and comments about the mini-series starring the world's youngest
super-team, it's still an entertaining story about the Pack and
their adventures that occurred within the mini.  But since you're
only interested in just their appearances, here they are 
(thoughout all four issues) ....

Alex Power is now known as ZERO-G.
Julie Power is officially STARSTREAK (II).
Jack and Katie are back to being MASS MASTER and ENERGIZER,
respectively.
KOFI (WHITEMANE) appears throughout all four issues.
JAKAL and MARAUD returns and appears throughout all four issues.
LORD YRIK WHITEMANE {KOFI'S FATHER} appears throughout all four
issues.
The Pack's Parents, JIM & MARGERET are also seen throughout the 
Mini.
And a Queen Mother Snark named DESTRAK appears throughout the Mini.

I'll come back at a later date in order to post more of the other
appearances of other characters that're seen within the mini, but 
these are the main ones for the Pack's Mini...

PaxHouse.

PS   You may decide to update the mini as POWER PACK {VOLUME II}; 
since Marvel's just decide to dropped the PEER PRESSURE from the 
original title...  

			*	*	*

First Corrections...
Posted by PaxHouse on December 14, 2000 at 12:07:47:
In Reply to: POWER PACK: PEER PRESSURE #1-4
posted by PaxHouse on December 11, 2000 at 12:57:45:

: LORD YRIK WHITEMANE {KOFI'S FATHER} appears throughout all four
issues.

Yrik appears first in PP{:PP} #1; then issues #3-#4

: The Pack's Parents, JIM & MARGERET are also seen throughout the 
Mini.

I meant to say MarGAret Power.

Also, LORD BYREL WHITEMANE {"Whitey's" Father} appears in 
PP{:PP} #3.

And FRIDAY {The Smartship} receives a new 'body' also in PP{:PP} #3.

PaxHouse.

			*	*	*

Iron Man#31
Posted by Prime Eternal on December 13, 2000 at 18:04:44:

It looks like no one else has done this issue, so I guess I'll cover 
it...

Appearing in this issue is:

Iron Man
Jocasta
Sun-Tao (leader of the Sons of Yinsen)
Rumiko Fujikawa

Plus a bunch of the Sons of Yinsen who are not given names.

This story occurs following the Iron Man#1/2 special from Wizard 
magazine.

In this issue, Tony dons his old "golden Avenger" armor as his 
regular outfit.

There's a flashback to Sun-Tao's past in Wong-Chu's prison camp, 
depicting him and Ho Yinsen together (before TOS 39) and him with 
Yinsen's body (after TOS 39). Sun-Tao should thus have a Behind-The-
Scenes listing under TOS 39.

Michael Hoskin

			*	*	*

Re: Iron Man#31
Posted by Russ Chappell on December 17, 2000 at 19:15:06:
In Reply to: Iron Man#31
posted by Prime Eternal on December 13, 2000 at 18:04:44:

Any idea how much time passes between Iron Man 30 and 31?

			*	*	*

Re: Iron Man#31
Posted by Michel Racaud on December 18, 2000 at 13:44:06:
In Reply to: Re: Iron Man#31
posted by Russ Chappell on December 17, 2000 at 19:15:06:

: Any idea how much time passes between Iron Man 30 and 31?

Jocasta makes a complete check-up on Tony and finds out his heart 
has been replaced in the beginning of Iron-Man #31. It seems safe 
to presume that Tony has not waited very long to check what's his 
armor had made with his body.

			*	*	*

MARVEL BOY #1-5
Posted by Flank McLargehuge on December 21, 2000 at 00:00:33:

I'm really not sure if this LS should be included in the Chronology 
Project, because it may or may not be occuring in the mainstream MU, 
Earth 616.  Some of the technology involved (SHIELD has an orbital 
platform where Dum Dum Dugan runs operations, and also has a 
teleportational connection to earth) and the occurences mentioned 
(the Fantastic Four have discovered a "Positive Zone") don't seem to 
coincide with the current state of the MU, and I read an online 
interview with the artist which mentioned that this is an alternate 
reality.  I understand there's a sequel limited series, in which 
Noh-Varr kicks the crap out of a bunch of Marvel heroes, so that 
series will hopefully clear up where this book actually takes place.  
It was established in IRON MAN 2000 that there's a Dr. Midas in the 
mainstream MU, even if it's a divergent one from the Midas in MARVEL 
BOY (which was footnoted as a character reference).  Anyway, if the 
LS does turn out to be in the MU proper, or if you eventually add a 
section for different realities, then here's my analysis of the first 
five issues.
--
MARVEL BOY #1 ("Hello Cruel World")
No flashbacks.
Characters:
Merree (killed)
Noh-Varr (also referred to as Ensign Marvel)
Plex Intelligence
Captain Glory (killed)
Other crewmembers of Dimension-Schooner Marvel (all killed)
Dr. Midas
Exterminatrix (Oubliette; seen in shadow.  She's referred to as 
'Exterminatrix' in articles I've read about the series, and the 
title of issue #4 obviously refers to her, but she isn't actually 
named until #5, when the name "Oubliette" comes out of nowhere)
Midas Foundation personnel (none named)
Mr. Fantastic, the Thing, Johnny Storm (one-panel cameo)
--
MARVEL BOY #2 ("Boy vs. World")
In this issue, Noh-Varr uses his ship's technology to take mental 
control of lots of people in Manhatten, so he can clear them out 
of the buildings he's marked for demolision, including the UN 
Building I guess.  He ends up spelling the words "F*** YOU" into 
the face of Midtown, in letters several city blocks wide.  It's 
kind of hard to believe something like this'd happen in the primary 
MU...  The FF and Avengers are mentioned as being out of town, and 
Captain America's "stirring legacy" is mentioned, which might 
indicate that he's dead.
No flashbacks.
Characters:
Noh-Varr
Plex Intelligence
Dum Dum Dugan (Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. Global Security:  Blacklight 
Ops 'Omphalos' Orbiter)
6+ SHIELD Agents
3 UN Bannermen (cloned supersoldiers laced with Adamantium and able 
to turn into gamma-monsters), only one named:  Bannerman White
--
MARVEL BOY #3 ("Digital Koncentration Kamp One")
Flashback 1:  One month ago, a young musician and a computer software 
salesmen sit in the office of Brand Hex, and are admitted to see "Mr. 
Greepy," the prime spokesman for Hexus, the Living Corporation, an 
alien entity that is the true power behind Brand Hex.  The two are 
held down after being shown rows of hypnotized people working at their 
computer screens.  The musician later turns up as the second "Mr. 
Greepy."
Flashback 2:  Scenes of the life-cycle of a world infected by Hexus
Characters
Musician/"Mr. Greepy" II (killed)
"Mr. Greepy" I/IV (elderly man; presumably killed)
Hexus, the Living Corporation
Noh-Varr
Plex Intelligence
Idealus, the Fictional Man (seen in a tank in the Marvel's Concept 
Dungeons)
"Mr. Greepy" III (female receptionist from first flashback?)
4 More Hexus Pawns
Barney & Bernie (two cops)
Exterminatrix (Oubliette)
--
MARVEL BOY #4 ("Exterminatrix")
Characters:
Noh-Varr
Exterminatrix (Oubliette)
Dr. Midas
Plex Intelligence
Nurse (formerly Marine Sgt. Mike)
--
MARVEL BOY #5 ("Zero Zero:  Year Of Love")
Flashback:  Noh-Varr shows Oubliette scenes from the history of the 
crew of his ship, the Dimsnion-Schooner Marvel.  The only ones we know 
by name are Merree, his late girlfriend, and Captain Wonder.  These 
are just single panels of history with no dialogue in them, so I 
don't know if they count as 'appearances.'  There are also the three 
Astro-Gods from the First Firmament, and several alternate-reality 
people, including some who are evidently the Authority from Image...
SHIELD Agents Red, Orange & Green (telepaths)
Midas' "Un-Entity" (a Mindless One)
Dr. Midas
Noh-Varr
Exterminatrix (Oubliette)
Plex Intelligence (We-Plex Supreme Intelligence System; apparently 
dies)
--
So, here are the chronologies of the characters introduced in this 
series.  When the last issue comes out I'll include it in this 
thread.

NOH-VAR MARVEL, ENSIGN
M:B 1
M:B 2
M:B 3
M:B 4
M:B 5

PLEX INTELLIGENCE
M:B 1
M:B 2
M:B 3
M:B 4
M:B 5

DR. MIDAS
IM3@ 2000 (I don't know the numbering on it) - FB
M:B 1
M:B 4
M:B 5

EXTERMINATRIX (Oubliette)
M:B 1
M:B 3
M:B 4
M:B 5

HEXUS, THE LIVING CORPORATION
M:B 3-FB 2
M:B 3-FB 1
M:B 3

			*	*	*

Re: MARVEL BOY #1-5
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 22, 2000 at 04:02:45:
In Reply to: MARVEL BOY #1-5
posted by Flank McLargehuge on December 21, 2000 at 00:00:33:

: HEXUS, THE LIVING CORPORATION
: M:B 3-FB 2
: M:B 3-FB 1
: M:B 3

Logically, since Hexus was brought to Earth on Noh-Varr's ship, he 
must also be behind the scenes in issue #1, mustn't he?

			*	*	*

Re: MARVEL BOY #1-5
Posted by Flank McLargehuge on December 22, 2000 at 16:29:08:
In Reply to: Re: MARVEL BOY #1-5
posted by Paul O'Brien on December 22, 2000 at 04:02:45:

: Logically, since Hexus was brought to Earth on Noh-Varr's ship, 
he must also be behind the scenes in issue #1, mustn't he?

Makes sense.

			*	*	*

Re: MARVEL BOY #1-5
Posted by StAkAr Karnak</a> on December 23, 2000 at 20:08:20:
In Reply to: MARVEL BOY #1-5
posted by Flank McLargehuge on December 21, 2000 at 00:00:33:

Flank McLargehuge spake:

: I'm really not sure if this LS should be included in the Chronology 
Project, because it may or may not be occuring in the mainstream MU, 
Earth 616.

Although I don't have a quote for you, Joe Q said some time ago that 
it is in the Mainstream MU on rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe.

: I read an online interview with the artist which mentioned that this 
is an alternate reality.

URL?

: I understand there's a sequel limited series

Which is slated to include the Skrull Kill Krew, created by the same 
author and also in continuity.

: It was established in IRON MAN 2000 that there's a Dr. Midas in the 
mainstream MU

Was he shown on-panel?

: In this issue, Noh-Varr uses his ship's technology to take mental 
control of lots of people in Manhatten, so he can clear them out of 
the buildings he's marked for demolision, including the UN Building 
I guess.  He ends up spelling the words "F*** YOU" into the face of 
Midtown, in letters several city blocks wide.  It's kind of hard to 
believe something like this'd happen in the primary MU...

Damage Control must put in a lot of overtime.

: NOH-VAR MARVEL, ENSIGN

I don't think that "Marvel" is part of Noh-Varr's name.  The entry 
should probably read:

MARVEL BOY #? / ENSIGN NOH-VARR

: PLEX INTELLIGENCE

It's just "Plex," IIRC.

: EXTERMINATRIX (Oubliette)

This is totally conjecture, but if Dr. Midas is using his actual 
surname, his daughter would be Oubliette Midas.

: HEXUS, THE LIVING CORPORATION

Can a virus qualify as a character?  Hex' will seemed to be viral 
instinct, and would thus be excluded from the MCP ala the Phoenix 
Force and Captain Universe.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: MARVEL BOY #1-5
Posted by Flank McLargehuge on December 24, 2000 at 23:43:06:
In Reply to: Re: MARVEL BOY #1-5
posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 23, 2000 at 20:08:20:

: Flank McLargehuge spake:

: : I'm really not sure if this LS should be included in the 
Chronology Project, because it may or may not be occuring in the 
mainstream MU, Earth 616.

: Although I don't have a quote for you, Joe Q said some time ago 
that it is in the Mainstream MU on rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe.

I hope so.  This series (and the characters in it) is far too bad@$$ 
to just be an alternate earth, and a brutal waste of all the creative 
energy and original concepts being thrown into it...

: : I read an online interview with the artist which mentioned that 
this is an alternate reality.

: URL?

http://www.comicbookresources.com/features/jgjones/

Here's the passage:

BB: Does this particular mini-series fit within the current Marvel 
Knights, or the Marvel universe, continuity? 

JG: It only touches tangentially on Marvel continuity, and I'm not 
sure where it fits in the actual continuity. You'll have to wait for 
the Grant interview, for [the specific answer to] that. From what I 
understand, it's in a sort of parallel universe. It doesn't really 
involve any of the other Marvel Knights characters. 

Let's see, the only Marvel characters that figure in here, there's a 
reference to the Fantastic Four at one point. And Dum Dum Dugan, and 
SHIELD shows up, in issue 2. In issue 5, he trots out a horde of 
parallel universe characters from Marvel and "others".

BB: Right. Because the obvious question is, with all this collateral 
damage happening, you gotta figure that SOMETIME, sooner or later, 
the super heroes are gonna take an interest in what's going on there.

JG: Yeah, you would think so, wouldn't you? 

: : I understand there's a sequel limited series

: Which is slated to include the Skrull Kill Krew, created by the 
same author and also in continuity.

Cool.  I'll have to pick that series up, since I know absolutely 
nothing about it...

: : It was established in IRON MAN 2000 that there's a Dr. Midas in 
the mainstream MU

: Was he shown on-panel?

A shadowed figure in a duster (without definite signs of the armor, 
which made sense because he was in the middle of retrieving the 
mostly-dead body of Tony Stark's mentor Yinsen), shown in flashbacks 
and referred to mostly as "the Great Salvager" and only called Dr. 
Midas on-panel once.

: : NOH-VAR MARVEL, ENSIGN

: I don't think that "Marvel" is part of Noh-Varr's name.  The entry 
should probably read:

In issue #1, Captain Glory calls him "Ensign Marvel."  That's where 
I got it from.

: MARVEL BOY #? / ENSIGN NOH-VARR

Noh-Varr is at no point in the series referred to as Marvel Boy, and 
according to the interviews with Grant Morrison from before the 
series debuted, that's intentional.  Unless he gets christened 
'Marvel Boy' in #6 or in the next miniseries (probably by one of 
the heroes he ends up fighting), then it isn't his codename.

Unfortunately, the same thing goes for Oubliette; that name came 
out of nowhere in #5 and in the previews for it an #6, whereas in 
past articles she'd been called Exterminatrix, and that was the 
title of issue #4.  The name Exterminatrix never appeared in the 
series, however.

: : PLEX INTELLIGENCE

: It's just "Plex," IIRC.

"We-Plex Supreme Intelligence System" if you want to get technical.  
#5, page 6.

: : EXTERMINATRIX (Oubliette)

: This is totally conjecture, but if Dr. Midas is using his actual 
surname, his daughter would be Oubliette Midas.

"I wasn't born with the name Midas; dad wasn't Joe Midas of 
Pennsylvania, nothing like that.  I changed by name by deed after 
five years of deliberate exposure to cosmic radiation."  (#1)  So 
it may legally be his name now, but we don't know that yet.  So, 
I'd suggest:

EXTERMINATRIX/OUBLIETTE "MIDAS"

: : HEXUS, THE LIVING CORPORATION

: Can a virus qualify as a character?  Hex' will seemed to be viral 
instinct, and would thus be excluded from the MCP ala the Phoenix 
Force and Captain Universe.

This seemed more like a sentient possessing entity than a virus to 
me, and therefore a character.  But it can divide itself up to 
'breed' by seeding other worlds, so I don't know; it could be one 
character, or a race, though it's referred to like a character.

			*	*	*

Re: MARVEL BOY #1-5
Posted by Sean Curtin on January 05, 2001 at 02:51:28:
In Reply to: Re: MARVEL BOY #1-5
posted by Flank McLargehuge on December 24, 2000 at 23:43:06:

: : : It was established in IRON MAN 2000 that there's a Dr. Midas 
in the mainstream MU

: : Was he shown on-panel?

: A shadowed figure in a duster (without definite signs of the armor, 
which made sense because he was in the middle of retrieving the 
mostly-dead body of Tony Stark's mentor Yinsen), shown in flashbacks 
and referred to mostly as "the Great Salvager" and only called Dr. 
Midas on-panel once.

Midas was already an established Iron Man villain before this series 
(and that annual) came out, wasn't he?

--Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: MARVEL BOY #1-5
Posted by Flank McLargehuge on January 05, 2001 at 19:18:20:
In Reply to: Re: MARVEL BOY #1-5
posted by Sean Curtin on January 05, 2001 at 02:51:28:

Midas was already an established Iron Man villain before this series 
(and that annual) came out, wasn't he?

There was a villain called Midas before this, but according to 
interviews with the series' writer Grant Morrison, Dr. Midas is 
a new, different character.

			*	*	*

First time here...   and it's WONDERFUL!
Posted by Michael Blayde Bentz on December 25, 2000 at 20:32:30:

This is a superb body of work!

Thanks for so lovingly putting it together and making it available 
to Marvel continuity buffs like me, and congratulations on a job 
well done.

I just spent the last few minutes looking for relatively obscure 
Silver Age characters like Frank Farnum (the Masked Marauder) and 
Zoltan Drago (Mr. Fear) and you've even got THEM covered!

Again, very nicely done.  I anticipated I'll be visiting frequently 
when time allows.

Thanks again,

-- Mike

			*	*	*

By the way...
Posted by Michael Blayde Bentz on December 25, 2000 at 20:43:24:
In Reply to: First time here...   and it's WONDERFUL!
posted by Michael Blayde Bentz on December 25, 2000 at 20:32:30:

I consider myself to be a bit of an authority on Daredevil and all 
the characters that have been part of the book's illustrious history, 
so if I can ever be of any assistance, please feel free to inquire.

			*	*	*

A Listing for Killraven
Posted by Greg Saladino</a> on December 26, 2000 at 21:32:31:

I was just browsing around my local comic book last week I kicked 
up Joe Linser's book, Killraven.  I've never read any Killraven 
books before, but after reading that issue, I am interested.  I 
know that he was a charactor from the '70's, but i don't know what 
series he appeared in, and I can't seem to find an entry for him 
in the MCP.  Can anybody please help me?  

   Thanks, 
   Greg

			*	*	*

Re: A Listing for Killraven
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 27, 2000 at 16:44:51:
In Reply to: A Listing for Killraven
posted by Greg Saladino on December 26, 2000 at 21:32:31:

Killraven lives in an alternate timeline that is not yet included 
in the MCP.  You may have heard of the Guardians of the Galaxy - they 
inhabit that reality as well.

Killraven appeared in Amazing Adventures vol. 2 #18-39, Marvel Team-Up 
vol. 1 #45, Marvel Graphic Novel #7 and in a flashback in (IIRC) 
Defenders vol. 1 #26.

There are some ideas on the table for incorporating other timelines 
into the Project, but nothing definite yet.  In the meantime, I have 
a Killraven/Guardians website (URL below) with a review of Linsner's 
Killraven: 2020 and a partial timeline.  Whenever I get the time, I 
plan on putting together/posting character chronologies on my site 
for all the denizens of that reality.

But it'll be a while...

- StAkAr Karnak
Webmaster, GUARDIANS OF THE WORLDS

			*	*	*

Re: A Listing for Killraven
Posted by Russ Chappell on December 27, 2000 at 17:54:25:
In Reply to: Re: A Listing for Killraven
posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 27, 2000 at 16:44:51:

Killraven 2020 didn't show up at my shop at all. Could you donate an 
analysis?

			*	*	*

Re: A Listing for Killraven
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 27, 2000 at 19:57:41:
In Reply to: Re: A Listing for Killraven
posted by Russ Chappell on December 27, 2000 at 17:54:25:

The distinguished Sir Russ of Chappell spake:

: Killraven 2020 didn't show up at my shop at all.

Horrors!

: Could you donate an analysis?

It doesn't get much more analyzed than 
"http://www.geocities.com/glakandar/gotw/2020.htm".  Were you going 
to do a seperate section of the project on this timeline with links 
to divergence points (my vote) or incorporate it into the main body?

FWIW, I'm slowly compiling chronologies for everyone in the GOTG 
timeline, and these are my current (read: not finalized) notes for 
Killraven.  KR stands for Killraven vol. 1, JML's one-shot.  There 
are still pre-AA2 18 flashbacks from MGN 7 and M/TU 45 I need to 
incorporate, so take this with a grain of salt:

Killraven / Jonathan Raven
KR 1-FB (pre-Invasion)
AA2 18-FB (capture)
KR 1-FB (mother's death)
KR 1-FB (in chains)
AA2 18-FB (presented for training, swordplay)
KR 1-FB (torture)
KR 1-FB (more torture)
AA2 18-FB (martial arts)
KR 1-FB (fighting)
KR 1-FB (killing a Martian)
AA2 18-FB (escape)
KR 1-FB (escape)
AA2 18-FB (escape)
AA2 18  (1st appearance)
AA2 19
AA2 20
AA2 21
AA2 22
DEF 26-FB
AA2 22/1
AA2 23/1
AA2 24/1
AA2 25/1
AA2 26/1
AA2 27/1
AA2 28/1
AA2 29
[#30 was a reprint]
AA2 31
AA2 32
AA2 33
AA2 34
M/TU 45
M/TU 47?-BTS
AA2 35
AA2 36
AA2 37
AA2 38
AA2 39
MGN 7
KR 1-FB
KR 1

- StAkAr Karnak
Webmaster, GUARDIANS OF THE WORLDS

			*	*	*

Re: GOTG
Posted by Russ Chappell on December 27, 2000 at 21:43:34:
In Reply to: Re: A Listing for Killraven
posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 27, 2000 at 19:57:41:

> Were you going to do a seperate section of the project on this 
timeline with links to divergence points (my vote) or incorporate 
it into the main body?

The Guardians themselves have so much interaction with the Universe 
Prime that I'm tempted to include them in the main Project. In fact, 
they're there now, of course, but they can be moved at any time. But 
guest stars and supporting characters are clearly better suited in a 
separate section, and if we do that, it only makes sense that the 
Guardians themselves be moved out.

First step is to get caught up with current books, and I'm on pace to 
add an entire month this weekend.

			*	*	*

Re: A Listing for Killraven
Posted by Andy Holcombe on January 24, 2001 at 02:34:30:
In Reply to: Re: A Listing for Killraven
posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 27, 2000 at 19:57:41:

Don't forget his appearances in Avengers Forever using Captain 
America's shield with a group of future avengers including an aging 
T'Challa.  I'm sorry I can't give you issue numbers because my 
collection is not with me right now, but it took place around issue 
4.  I have only read the Killraven Graphic Novel and recent one shot 
so I'm not sure where these issues take place.

			*	*	*

Re: A Listing for Killraven
Posted by Xuxa Robles on March 24, 2001 at 00:50:05:
In Reply to: Re: A Listing for Killraven
posted by Andy Holcombe on January 24, 2001 at 02:34:30:

Killraven can be found also in Avengers Forever issue numbers 4,5, 
and 6. These issue deal with the very ending of the second (some 
even say third) War of The Worlds; according to the records the 
Martians left in 2075, so the Avengers still alive must have survived 
this long.  From what I gather, this timeline is the exact same as 
that of Amazing Adventures and Guardians of the Galaxy.   Killraven 
does not look bad for an old man!   Please list the goings on of 
Avengers Forever #s 4,5 and 6 with the Times of the Worlds 2001-3000 
as they have not been listed yet.  Thanx.

			*	*	*

Re: A Listing for Killraven
Posted by Russ Chappell</a> on December 27, 2000 at 18:00:00:
In Reply to: Re: A Listing for Killraven
posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 27, 2000 at 16:44:51:

> Killraven lives in an alternate timeline that is not yet included 
in the MCP.  You may have heard of the Guardians of the Galaxy - they 
inhabit that reality as well.

We're definitely adding Guardians of the Galaxy--in time. Since they 
share a timeline with Killraven, he'll get roped into it also.

			*	*	*

Deadpool #49
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 28, 2000 at 11:43:27:

No real difficulties with this one.

The plot: Deadpool meets a whole load of implausibly friendly women 
in a very short period, most of whom want to have sex with him.  
(Yes, this is being co-written by a former writer for Wizard.)  
Being a wildly optimistic sort, Deadpool apparently doesn't see 
anything implausible in this.  In fact, they're all Copycat in 
disguise, but he doesn't know that.  That's the main plot.  In 
a one-page subplot, a Catholic schoolgirl is beaten up and killed 
by members of a rival soccer team.  One of the attackers is named 
as Grace; the dead girls' coach is named as Coach Yancy.

The only established characters in this book are Deadpool and 
Copycat.  There are no references to any other series.  The story 
starts off immediately after the previous storyline (it begins with 
Deadpool returning home from the big fight that ended issue #48), 
and looks like it runs over a period of a week or so.

			*	*	*

Daredevil/Spider-Man #2
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 28, 2000 at 11:44:58:

Again, no particular problems with this one save for the perennial 
difficulty of working out how it fits into the flurry of Spider-Man 
books.

The plot: The Kingpin survived the missile attack on his office (at 
the end of issue #1) and is now laid up in hospital.  He hires an 
extremely reluctant Matt Murdock as his lawyer by telling him that 
if Daredevil doesn't deal with the attacker, the result will be an 
extremely bloody gangland war.  (The cover story for the missile 
attack was a gas explosion; Matt is meant to be acting as the 
Kingpin's lawyer in relation to damages claims arising from that.)  
Daredevil despatches Foggy Nelson and the Black Widow to meet the 
Kingpin's accountants and deal with the legal issues, and then enlists 
Spider-Man's help in going into the sewers in search of the Owl's 
group.  They find the Owl's group, who attack them and knock out 
Daredevil rather quickly.  Issue ends with the Owl's group standing 
over the fallen heroes.  It has to be said that the plot mechanics 
in this are all very ropey and rely on the heroes entering the sewers 
in the first place on a hunch, and then stumbling upon four people in 
a sewer system the size of Manhattan.  But never mind.

Timeframe: This is a day, at most two, after the explosion in the 
previous issue.  The Kingpin's survival is still making the news.  
There are no references to other books (unless you count the fact 
that the Kingpin is blind, which is going to happen in the current 
DD2 storyline when it finally gets published).

Characters appearing: This is a bit more complex.

DAREDEVIL, last seen in issue #1.  A bit early to say how this fits 
in with the other assorted Daredevil stories currently in print, 
although I've tentatively got this series slotted after Daredevil: 
Ninja but before Spider-Man: The Mysterio Manifesto and Black Widow 
Vol 2.  I'll come back to how this fits in with his appearances in 
Marvel Knights.

SPIDER-MAN, last seen in issue #1.  On the basis that  the Green 
Goblin storyline in his own books was well underway by the time this 
series got started, I'm assuming that this mini takes place 
in the gap in his own series following that storyline (ie, between 
ASM2 26 and PPSM2 26).  For the moment, I've tentatively got Mysterio 
Manifesto #1 down as his next appearance, also taking place in the 
same gap.

THE BLACK WIDOW, making her first appearance in this mini.  Hmm.  
Originally I had this mini down as taking place in the gap between 
Marvel Knights #6-7.  That worked fine for Daredevil, but doesn't 
work quite so well for the Black Widow, who is meant to have spent 
that time helping Dagger to track down Cloak (without succeeding, 
leading them to approach Dr Strange in MK 7).  I suspect that this 
appearance is going to end up having to fit after the current Marvel 
Knights storyline.  

THE KINGPIN.  Last in issue #1, obviously.  I'm going for this being 
his last chronological appearance to date; while he could conceivably 
be blind in his brief appearances in Iron Fist/Wolverine #1 and IM3 
37, it doesn't seem to be what the creators of those books had in 
mind.  That would suggest the ongoing DD2 storyline, when it finally 
ends, needs to slot in after those Kingpin appearances in order to 
give him an opportunity to go blind.

FOGGY NELSON, also making his first appearance in this mini.  His 
last appearance will presumably be in the ongoing storyline in DD2.

THE OWL (whose identity is confirmed this issue), STILT-MAN, 
GLADIATOR I and COPPERHEAD.  The Kingpin helpfully tells us in this 
issue that the original Copperhead was electrocuted in Daredevil's 
presence and can confidently be taken as dead, leading him to the 
conclusion that this is an impostor who has assumed the identity.  
I believe that would make him Copperhead III once the Serpent Society 
character is factored in.

			*	*	*

Iron Fist/Wolverine #4
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 28, 2000 at 11:46:18:

I can well see why you're skipping this one...

The plot: The heroes all gang up together on the villains.  Yu-Ti 
decides that the best way to save Tokyo and K'un-Lun is to stop Iron 
Fist's heart by murdering him, and Iron Fist decides to play along.  
Iron Fist dies and K'un-Lun is for the most part sent back where it 
came from, leaving small pockets behind on Earth.  Junzo Muto and 
the Hand make a break for it - and no, Iron Fist doesn't get his 
powers back.  Iron Fist appears as a ghost along with the ghosts 
of his family, who promptly reincarnate him.  And before you ask, 
yes, they did same routine in Heroes for Hire as well, but this 
series doesn't seem to be aware that the plot was already resolved.  
Anyhow, we end up with Iron Fist and Misty Knight staying in Japan 
to take care of the Dragons of K'un Lun (a group of transformed 
sorcerers who got left behind for no clearly explained reason) and 
to look for the Muto and the Hand.

Timeframe: Nothing in this issue pins the book down very specifically.  
However, the entire miniseries takes place in a matter of a couple of 
days at most.  The Avengers line-up that made a cameo appearance in 
issue #2 was the one that's currently appearing in their own title, 
including Goliath - who of course has just been abducted and replaced 
by Yellowjacket, in what seems to still be the immediately aftermath 
of Maximum Security.  So unless the Yellowjacket-as-impostor storyline 
is very shortlived, we're probably looking at this series taking place 
before Maximum Security in order to allow the Avengers to field the 
right line-up for their cameo.

Characters appearing (and I have no comments on chronology beyond the 
above):-

Cage, Luke
Captain America I
Carter, Sharon (no appearance, but her public comments on the events 
in Tokyo as director of SHIELD are quoted in news bulletins in this 
story, which I'd say counts as a BTS appearance)
Iron Fist I
Iron Man I
Knight, Misty
Muto, Junzo
Psylocke
Rand, ??? (Danny's mother, as a ghost; I don't know her first name, 
but presumably it's been given somewhere)
Sunfire
Wolverine
Yu-Ti
The Dragons of K'un Lun also appear, but none of them are given 
individual names.

			*	*	*

Re: Iron Fist/Wolverine #4
Posted by Celeste on June 16, 2002 at 19:25:12:
In Reply to: Iron Fist/Wolverine #4
posted by Paul O'Brien on December 28, 2000 at 11:46:18:

I know I'm late on this, but Danny's mother's name is Heather...

			*	*	*

X-Man #72
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 28, 2000 at 11:46:55:

Pretty straightforward, this.  The plot: On Earth 253, Nate Grey 
tries to help that world's heroes, the Protectorate (thinly disguised 
counterparts of the Authority) to defeat Qabiri, an extremely 
powerful lunatic from a higher world who wants to destroy all 
potential travellers from lower worlds that might potentially reach 
his and infect it.  Ultimately Qabiri destroys the entire planet, 
seemingly taking Nate with it, and announces his intention to head 
for our Earth.

A minor continuity point: according to Qabiri, because of the lower 
numbered Earths he has destroyed, the mainstream Marvel Universe is 
no longer Earth 616, but is now Earth 611.  This is the numbering 
system used by Roma and the Captain Britain Corps.  It has to be 
regarded as questionable whether anyone else would recognise Qabiri's 
renumbering, especially given that he's not actually wiping out the 
entire dimensions involved, only their versions of Earth.

A lengthy flashback in this issue depicts Qabiri arriving on Earth 
253 and fighting the Protectorate.  All of this takes place before 
Nate arrived on that world in issue #71.  Not all of the Protectorate 
appeared in issue #71, however.  The chronologies of the characters 
in this storyline are as follows:-

CITYDWELLER (Jerry ---; full name unrevealed)
XMAN 72-FB
XMAN 71
XMAN 72

GREY, NATE
XMAN 71
XMAN 72

NIGHTFIGHTER
XMAN 72-FB
XMAN 72

PROFESSOR X OF EARTH 253 (not a counterpart of Charles Xavier)
XMAN 72-FB
XMAN 71
XMAN 72

QABIRI
XMAN 67
XMAN 72-FB
XMAN 71
XMAN 72

SISTER PERPETUA
(Identified in X-Man #72 as the mainstream Earth's counterpart of 
Earth 253's Nicola Zeitgeist, although the story never expressly 
confirms her real name)
XMAN 71
XMAN 72

TECHNOCRAT
XMAN 72-FB
XMAN 71
XMAN 72

THOR OF EARTH 253 (probably not a counterpart of the mainstream 
Thor)
XMAN 72-FB
XMAN 71
XMAN 72

WHITE BIRD (Amara ---; full name unrevealed)
XMAN 72-FB
XMAN 72

ZEITGEIST, NICOLA
XMAN 72-FB
XMAN 71
XMAN 72

			*	*	*

Black Widow #1
Posted by Tom Lynch on January 04, 2001 at 15:00:09:

Features, in current time (as far as we can tell) and in order of 
appearance: Yelena Belova (Black Widow II)
Nick Fury
Natasha Romanov (Black Widow I)
Daredevil
No one else we know appears; no one else is named (except Belova's 
aunt Olga)

			*	*	*

Re: Black Widow #1 and 2
Posted by SKleefeld on January 05, 2001 at 11:14:33:
In Reply to: Black Widow #1
posted by Tom Lynch on January 04, 2001 at 15:00:09:

: Features, in current time (as far as we can tell) and in order 
of appearance: Yelena Belova (Black Widow II)
: Nick Fury
: Natasha Romanov (Black Widow I)
: Daredevil
: No one else we know appears; no one else is named (except Belova's 
aunt Olga)

I think the new Black Widow series has either got to be a bit in 
the future or the past of current continuity. Nick Fury is shown 
to be running SHIELD, but he stepped down some time back in Captain 
America. His appearances since then (notably in Hulk and Captain 
America) and Sharon Carter's appeances as SHIELD's director (also 
in Captain America) suggests that Black Widow isn't quite in synch 
with the rest of the MU.

That said, here's the low-down on #2...
According to the file shown on page 1, issue #1 takes place over 
the course of 2 days and leads directly into the start of #2. The 
book also suggests that Yelena and Natasha have not mind-swapped 
or anything, but simply undergone expert plastic surgery to look 
like each other.
Appearances by:
Yelena Belova
Natasha Romanov
Daredevil
Nick Fury
General Stelyenko

- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Black Widow #1 and 2
Posted by Tom Lynch on January 09, 2001 at 13:04:12:
In Reply to: Re: Black Widow #1 and 2
posted by SKleefeld on January 05, 2001 at 11:14:33:

: I think the new Black Widow series has either got to be a bit in 
the future or the past of current continuity. Nick Fury is shown to 
be running SHIELD, but he stepped down some time back in Captain 
America. His appearances since then (notably in Hulk and Captain 
America) and Sharon Carter's appeances as SHIELD's director (also 
in Captain America) suggests that Black Widow isn't quite in synch 
with the rest of the MU.

Hmm... I hadn't read BW#2 so I was perfectly willing to accept 
this - and if other stuff or a good argument shows up, I'll accept 
it again - but I'm not sure Fury is being presented as running 
Shield. He's in it, certainly - but the report in #2 is made out 
to Command HQ from 'Fury, Nick - SHIELD'. Rank isn't mentioned, 
so it could be in the future, in the recent past or contemporaneous.

			*	*	*

Eric the Red/Davan Shakiri
Posted by Sean Curtin on January 05, 2001 at 00:42:56:

A chronology for Eric the Red/Davan Shakiri post-UX 107:

X 39 (hand only)
X 41 (one panel of him fighting X-Treme while the M'Kraan crystal 
wave hits, causing the Age of Apocalypse...if you don't know, don't 
ask. This appearance is confirmed by a footnote in CM4 3.)
CM4 2 (partially shadowed, but it's obviously him)
CM4 3 (dies)

The X-Men appearances may fall in the Gap, but even so, they are 
VERY easy to miss, since they're one panel each.

--Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Deadpool chronology
Posted by Sean Curtin on January 05, 2001 at 02:39:24:

A revised Deadpool chronology, taking into account the first DP 
limited series, Wolverine '95, several X-Force issues, and the 
first several issues of his solo series.

DEADPOOL/JACK/"WADE WILSON"
DPOOL3 36-FB
DPOOL3 30-FB
DPOOL3 33-FB
DPOOL -1
DPOOL '98-FB
DPOOL '98-FB
DPOOL '98-FB
DPOOL '98-FB
DPOOL3 36-FB
DPOOL3 36-FB
DPOOL3 36-FB
DPOOL3 35-FB
DPOOL2 2-FB
DPOOL3 36-FB
NM 98
XFOR 2
XFOR 4
XFOR 5
NOM2 4
XFOR 10
XFOR 11
XFOR 14
XFOR 15
DPOOL 1
DPOOL 2
DPOOL 3
DPOOL 4
DPOOL2 1
DPOOL2 2
DPOOL2 3
DPOOL2 4
W2 88
W '95
XFOR 46
XFOR 47
XFOR 56
DPOOL3 1
DPOOL3 2
DPOOL3 3
DPOOL3 4
DPOOL3 5
DPOOL3 6
DPOOL3 7
DD '97
DPOOL3 8
DPOOL3 9
DPOOL3 10
DPOOL3 11
XFOR 71
DPOOL3 12
DPOOL3 13
XFOR 73
DPOOL3 13
XFOR 76-FB
DPOOL3 13
DPOOL3 14
DPOOL3 15
DPOOL3 16-FB
HFH 10
HFH 11
DPOOL3 16-FB
DPOOL3 16-FB
DPOOL3 16-FB
DPOOL3 16
DPOOL3 17
DPOOL '98
DPOOL3 18
DPOOL3 19
DPOOL3 20
DPOOL3 21
DPOOL3 22
DPOOL3 23
DPOOL3 25
DPOOL3 26-FB
DPOOL3 26-FB-FB
DPOOL3 26-FB
DPOOL3 26
DPOOL3 27
DPOOL3 28
DPOOL3 29
DPOOL3 30
DPOOL3 31
DPOOL3 32
DPOOL3 33
DPOOL3 34
DPOOL3 35
DPOOL3 36
DPOOL3 37
DPOOL3 38
DPOOL3 39
DPOOL3 42-FB
DPOOL3 40-FB
DPOOL3 40
DPOOL3 41
DPOOL3 42
DPOOL3 43
DPOOL3 43-FB
DPOOL3 43
DPOOL3 44
BP3 23
GAM3 17
W2 154
DPOOL 45
DPOOL 46
DPOOL 47
DPOOL 48
DPOOL 49

			*	*	*

Re: Deadpool chronology
Posted by Dilth on January 27, 2001 at 22:03:23:
In Reply to: Deadpool chronology
posted by Sean Curtin on January 05, 2001 at 02:39:24:

please don't forget the crossover of daredevil 307-309, punisher 
war Journal 45-47 and nomad 4-6
nomad is part 1, daredevil part 2 and Punisher Part 3. Deadpool 
is a minor part in each of these issues

			*	*	*

SLINGERS #1-12 Analysis
Posted by Flank McLarghuge on January 05, 2001 at 05:53:22:

I notice the SLINGERS series and characters are nowhere to be found 
in the MCP, and I'm guessing that it's because of the mess of trying 
to add four variant #1 issues that are mostly the same but have 
several pages of new material in each one, in the middle of the 
issue.  I'm going to give it a shot now, try and analyze all the 
Slingers appearances that I know of currently, but I'm still not 
entirely sure how to handle the four #1s.
--
SLINGERS #0 ("The Learning Curve," from Wizard Entertainment)
I noticed that NEW WARRIORS Vol. 2 #0 wasn't included in the MCP, 
so I'm not sure if you include Wizard give-away issues, but since 
this one is definitely canonical (and if you haven't read it, you 
come in to the #1s in the middle of the story), I'm going to include 
it.

Characters:
Spider-Man (one-panel cameo webslingers across the city)
Hornet III (Eddie McDonough)
Ricochet III (Johnny Gallo)
Prodigy III (Ritchie Gilmore; you only list one Prodigy in the MCP, 
but Spider-Man had the name too, just like he had Hornet, Dusk and 
Ricochet, so Ritchie is the third one.)
Dusk IV (Cassie St. Commons)

Page 7, all three panels, are a flashback to earlier in the night, 
and some of their training activities.

It should be noted that any scene in a comic that features all four 
Slingers takes place either before this issue, or after the final 
one of the series, because in #0 Dusk 'dies' (she gets a lot better 
though; a ten-story drop followed by cessation of life functions for 
several hours in some way caused her powers to evolve), and doesn't 
get reunited with the team until several issues later, when Prodigy 
is missing and presumed dead.  When the team is reunited, they're 
immediately thrust into several issues of continuous action.
--
SLINGERS #1 ("So Whose Idea Was This Anyway?")
Four variant issues, containing 39 story pages, 23 of which are the 
same in each issue, the other 16 are unique to that issue.  For 
simplicity's sake, we'll treat them as five separate one-shot 
issues:

SLINGERS #1 (SL 1; the 23 pages of each issue that are identical 
will be treated as one issue)
SLINGERS:  DUSK #1 (SL:D 1)
SLINGERS:  HORNET #1 (SL:H 1)
SLINGERS:  PRODIGY #1 (SL:P 1)
SLINGERS:  RICOCHET #1 (SL:R 1)

Characters from the identical section of each issue:
Frankie & Max (two police officers with no last names)
Spider-Man (taking pictures of Dusk's corpse)
Dusk (her corpse)
Ricochet, Hornet & Prodigy
Mr. Gallo (Johnny's father)
Mac Garrity (a transit worker who mutates into a monstrous villain 
called the Griz in later issues)
The Black Marvel (the Golden Age hero, who provided the Slingers 
with their costumes and identities)

SLINGERS:  DUSK
First spotlight character:
Dusk
Tony & Barry (morgue workers)
Mr. & Mrs. St. Commons (Cassie's unnamed parents; seen in flashback)
Prodigy, Hornet and Ricochet (in the flashback of events in and 
around #0)

Train-Stopping scene:
Ricochet (3 panels), Hornet (5 panels), Progidy (4 panels), and Dusk
Wolvie (a dog) and the boy that owns him
This second scene begins at the same time as the ones from the other 
three #1s, but then skips ahead to after they've finished.

Flashbacks:  Page 10, panels 1-2 are of just before the beginning 
of #0 (after the flashback in that issue), as are panels 2-3 of 
page 11.  Panels 3-7 of page 10 and 4-5 & 7 of 11 are of some time before she joined the others for 'training' in #0, and panel 6 of page 11 is of the end of #0.<p>SLINGERS:  HORNET<br>First spotlight character:<br>Hornet<br>Susan Sawyer (a girl in Eddie's dorm)<br>Brian Boyd (Susan's abusive boyfriend)<br>Jeannine & an unnamed blonde (two coeds putting up a "missing" sign for Cassie St. Commons)<p>Train-Stopping scene:<br>Hornet<br>Prodigy (2 panels)<br>Wolvie (a dog) and his owner (a boy)<br>Mac Garrity<p>SLINGERS:  PRODIGY<br>First spotlight character:<br>Prodigy<br>A drug-dealer<br>"Jimmy Eyes" (Maggia guy)<p>Train-Stopping scene:<br>Prodigy<br>Kids playing dice in the alley<br>Train #1's driver<br>Hornet (1 panel)<br>Mac Garrity (1 panel)<br>Ricochet (BTS)<p>SLINGERS:  RICOCHET<br>First spotlight characters:<br>Ricochet<br>Mr. Gallo<br>Kathy (Johnny's girlfriend)<br>Kathy's two friends<br>Thug<p>Train-Stopping scene:<br>Progidy (1 panels), Hornet (2 panels)<br>Mac Garrity (1 panel)<br>--<br>SLINGERS #2 ("Terror on the Tracks")
This issue had two variants; thank Gaud they were just different 
covers, not material.

Characters:
Spider-Man (short appearance)
Ricochet
Black Marvel
Hornet
Progidy
"Jimmy Eyes"
Mr. & Mrs. St. Commons (Cassie's parents)
Frankie & presumably Max (two police detectives from the first issue)
Dusk
Vickie & Louie (Maggia guards)
--
SLINGERS #3 ("With Friends Like These...")
Characters:
Ricochet
Hornet
Dusk
Black Marvel
Christie & Brian (two kids who stumble into the Black Marvel's 
hideout)
Spider-Man
Librarian
Susan Sawyer & Brian Boyd
Kathy (Ricochet's girlfriend)
Prodigy
--
SLINGERS #4 ("The Black Marvel Strikes")
Characters:
Mr. Gallo
Black Marvel
Prodigy, Ricochet, Hornet, Dusk
Spider-Man (a page and a half)
Jimmy Eyes
Kathy
--
SLINGERS #5 ("Good-Bye To The Golden Age")
Characters:
Prodigy, Ricochet, Hornet, Dusk
"Jimmy Eyes"
Black Marvel
Frankie & Max (detectives)
Kathy
Spider-Man (one page) & Aunt May (from off-panel)
--
SLINGERS #6 ("Truth, Consquences, Dares & Dysfunction")
Characters:
Hornet, Ricochet, Dusk
Dr. Coyles (Hornet's advisor at ESU)
Prodigy
Black Marvel (in flashback)
The Griz
"Jimmy Eyes"

Flashbacks 1 (page 7-8) and 2 (11 through the first three panels/
half page of 12):  Hornet remembers how he met Dusk and Ricochet on 
the first day of school.
Flashback 3 (page 15 through the first three panels/two-thirds of 
16):  Ricochet has been given his costume and identity by the Black 
Marvel, who now introduces him to Ritchie Gilmore, who'll become 
Prodigy, while Cassie and Eddie watch from a distance.
--
SLINGERS #7 ("Revenge of the Griz")
Characters:
Mickey & Mack (sewage workers)
Hornet, Ricochet, Dusk, Prodigy
Susan Sawyer
Kathy
Griz
"Nanna" (the relative Prodigy lives with)
Mr. Gallo
--
SLINGERS #8 ("Revenge of the Griz Part 2:  Subterranean Homesick 
Blues")
Characters:
Hornet, Ricochet, Dusk, Prodigy
The Griz
Mr. Gallo

Flashback (page 4 & 5):  The Griz recounts how an accident with 
biohazardous waste he was helping the Maggia transport out from 
under the Grand Royale Hotel turned started mutating him, and how 
the Slingers, specifically Hornet, stopped him from killing himself 
between two trains to prevent the mutation from progressing.  Takes 
place before and after his first appearance.
--
SLINGERS #9 ("Loose Ends and Lost Boys")
Characters:
Ricochet (in flashback & story), Hornet, Dusk, Prodigy
Mrs. Gallo (in flashback)
Nanny II & Orphan Maker (in flashback and in story)
Mr. Gallo

Flashback (pages 1-5):  7 years ago, Ricochet first demonstrates 
his mutant physical powers, and his mother is killed by Orphan Maker 
and Nanny II, who wants to make him the second of her 'Lost Boys.'  
This obviously predates her earliest appearances, since she already 
had quite a few mutant children in her grasp in X-FACTOR.
--
SLINGERS #10 ("Raising Hell's Children Part 1:  The Devil's Due;" 
Sept '99)
Characters:
Black Marvel
Mephisto
Ricochet, Hornet, Dusk, Prodigy

I don't know exactly how this fits into Mephisto's chronology, but 
it's obviously before THUNDERBOLTS '00.
--
SLINGERS #11 ("Raising Hell's Children Part 2:  The Devil You Know;" 
Oct '99)
Characters:
Ricochet, Prodigy, Hornet, Dusk
Mephisto
Black Marvel (well, his imprisoned soul, at any rate...)

Flashback 1 (page 4, panels 1-5):  The Black Marvel is approached 
in the nursing home where he lived by Mephisto, who gave him health 
and the means to create the Slingers in exchange for his soul.
--
SLINGERS #12 ("Raising Hell's Children Part 3:  The Final Cut")
Characters:
Ricochet, Prodigy, Hornet, Dusk
Mephisto
Black Marvel

And that's where it ends.  The Slingers made two appearances after 
this, in NEW WARRIORS Vol. 2 #1 (which I assume you've had analyzed, 
since it's listed in the MCP) and in CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS II #3 (I 
see you don't have a listing for it in the key, so I'd assume it 
hasn't been analyzed), so I'll stick them in below.
--
Chronologies
I don't know how Spider-Man's appearances fit into his chronology, 
but here are the ones for the major characters in the series.

HORNET III/EDDIE McDONOUGH
SL 6-FB
SL:D 1-FB
SL 0-FB
SL 0
SL 1
SL:H 1
>SL 1
SL:H~SL:D~SL:R~SL:P
SL 1
SL 2
SL 3
SL 4
SL 5
SL 6
SL 7
SL 8
SL 9
SL 10
SL 11
SL 12
NW2 1
COC2 3

RICOCHET III/JOHNNY GALLO
SL 9-FB
SL 6-FB
SL:D 1-FB
SL 0-FB
SL 0
SL 1
SL:R 1
SL 1
SL:H 1~SL:D 1
SL 1
SL 2
SL 3
SL 4
SL 5
SL 6
SL 7
SL 8
SL 9
SL 10
SL 11
SL 12
NW2 1
COC2 3

PRODIGY III/RITCHIE GILMORE
SL 6-FB
SL:D 1-FB
SL 0-FB
SL 0
SL:P 1
SL 1
SL:P~SL:D~SL:H~SL:R
SL 1
SL 2
SL 3
SL 4
SL 5
SL 6
SL 7
SL 8
SL 9
SL 10
SL 11
SL 12
NW2 1
COC2 3

DUSK IV/CASSIE ST. COMMONS
SL 6-FB
SL:D 1-FB
SL 0-FB
SL 0
SL 1
SL:D 1
SL:D 1~SL:H 1
SL 1
SL 2
SL 3
SL 4
SL 5
SL 6
SL 7
SL 8
SL 9
SL 10
SL 11
SL 12
NW2 1
COC2 3

GRIZ, THE/MAC GARRITY
SL 8-FB
SL 1
SL 8-FB
SL:H~SL:P~SL:R
SL 6
SL 7
SL 8

BLACK MARVEL/DAN LYONS
- MARVELS 1 (existing listing)
- CA 442 (existing listing)
SL 11-FB
SL 6-FB
SL 1
SL 2
SL 3
SL 4
SL 5
SL 10
SL 11
SL 12

"JIMMY EYES"
SL:P 1
SL 2
SL 4
SL 5
SL 6

ORPHAN-MAKER/"PETER"
- SL 9-FB (new addition)
XF 34
XF 35
A 299
A 300
XF 40
UX 247
UX 248
UX 267-FB
UX 265
UX 266
UX 267
GENX 4
- SL 9 (new addition)

NANNY II
- SL 9-FB (new addition)
XF 34
XF 35
A 299
A 300
XF 40
UX 247
UX 248
UX 267-FB
UX 265
UX 266
UX 267
GENX 4
- SL 9 (new addition)
--
Maybe tommorrow or sometime soon I'll do the ULTRAGIRL limited 
series, which I notice isn't yet included...  It should be a lot 
easier than this was...

			*	*	*

Hate-Monger V in JUSTICE: FOUR BALANCE
Posted by Flank McLargehuge on January 05, 2001 at 06:07:13:

The Hate-Monger in FOUR BALANCE #1-2 is the same one Justice and 
the Warriors faced in AVENGERS #341-342, according to a caption 
box, his dialogue, and his physical appearance.  Russ, if you'd 
like, I'd be happy to analyze that LS for you.  I also think "J:FB" 
would be a better abbrieviation for the series the "JUSTICE."

			*	*	*

Re: Hate-Monger V in JUSTICE: FOUR BALANCE
Posted by Russ Chappell on January 05, 2001 at 08:41:50:
In Reply to: Hate-Monger V in JUSTICE: FOUR BALANCE
posted by Flank McLargehuge on January 05, 2001 at 06:07:13:

Justice has already been analyzed--although it appears we've 
abbreviated it "J" under Vance's listing, and "JUSTICE" everywhere 
else--but I'd welcome anyone's opinion who felt changes needed to 
be made.

I had analyzed the Justice series when it first came out, while 
the Avengers appearances were handled while closing the Gap. That's 
why we put the "(?)" after the "VI" in the Justice Hate-Monger's 
listing. Thanks for clearing that up.

			*	*	*

Having problems with Black Knight: Exodus
Posted by Jeph! on January 06, 2001 at 00:04:28:

Okay, here's the scoop: I just read Black Knight:Exodus, the one-shot 
that gets Dane and Sersi back from the Ultraverse and gives Exodus an 
origin, and I'm having a hell of a time following the plot.  Maybe 
someone can help me out.

Here's what I get from it:  Sersi and Dane open a portal from the 
Ultraverse (or, from "wherever"), but there are difficulties and they 
end up in the 12th century.  Dane is somehow inhabiting the body of 
Sir Eobar Garrington, his consciousness buried.  Eobar and his friend 
Bennet Du Paris are on a quest to Akkaba to find the mythical 
Apocalypse.  Bennet sets off early, discovers his mutant powers, is 
tested by Apocalypse, and becomes his servant Exodus.  Sersi meanwhile 
befriends Eobar, and the two go off in search of Bennet.  Sersi tells 
Eobar the story of how Dane is trapped inside him, and Eobar 
obligingly dies, allowing Dane to come to the surface.  They meet 
Apocalypse and Exodus, and fight him.  Exodus has a chnage of heart 
and Apocalypse curses him to sleep in a tomb, which other members of 
Eobar's quest agree to guard for the rest of their lives (and their 
descendants as well).  Sersi and Dane fade out, time-travelling home.

But here's what I don't understand: the story claims that once before, 
Dane Whitman's spirit had been living within Eobar Garrington, living 
the Crusades alongside him for five years, unable to act but forced 
to live all that Eobar did.  Sersi even says that this is why Dane 
recognized Exodus (in UXM#307): that his spirit was here within Eobar 
the first time round, experiencing Bennet's betrayal of him.

Now, my question here is, has this ever happened in a comic story?  
In what issue did Dane Whitman's soul get transported into to Eobar's 
body?  How did he return to his own time?  The only soul-switching 
between Black Knights that I know of is when Sir Percy of Scandia 
took over Dane's body, and he was from the 6th century, not the 12th.  
Eobar's not on the MCP -- unless this story happened during the Gap, 
I've never heard of it.

Next question: Does this mean that at that point in time, there are 
two Dane Whitmans in there?  The one from before, when he was locked 
in there the first time, and this new present-day, post-Ultraverse 
Dane?  If so, when did the first Dane manage to get out, seeing 
as...

Eobar drops dead halfway through the story?  He allows Sersi to kick 
his soul out of his body so that Dane can use it.  This bothers me: 
where is the alluded-to "original Dane-spirit" during this?  Where is 
current-day Dane's original body?  Did it get lost between dimensions?  
And does this mean that, post BK:Exodus-onward, Dane Whitman has been 
occupying Eobar Garrington's body?  Shudder.  This is sloppy 
storytelling.

Also, Black Knight II (Sir Raston) is credited to BK:E in the MCP, 
but he is the Black Knight of the 7th century -- "the first to wield 
the blade after sir Percy!" -- and a different character that Eobar, 
the Black Knight of the 12th century.

Such confusion.  If anyone can help me out with these questions, I'd 
appreciate it.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Having problems with Black Knight: Exodus
Posted by Prime Eternal on January 06, 2001 at 15:07:31:
In Reply to: Having problems with Black Knight: Exodus
posted by Jeph! on January 06, 2001 at 00:04:28:

: Okay, here's the scoop: I just read Black Knight:Exodus, the 
one-shot that gets Dane and Sersi back from the Ultraverse and 
gives Exodus an origin, and I'm having a hell of a time following 
the plot.  Maybe someone can help me out.

I'll try...

: But here's what I don't understand: the story claims that once 
before, Dane Whitman's spirit had been living within Eobar 
Garrington, living the Crusades alongside him for five years, 
unable to act but forced to live all that Eobar did.  Sersi even 
says that this is why Dane recognized Exodus (in UXM#307): that 
his spirit was here within Eobar the first time round, experiencing 
Bennet's betrayal of him.
: Now, my question here is, has this ever happened in a comic story?  
In what issue did Dane Whitman's soul get transported into to 
Eobar's body?  How did he return to his own time?  The only soul-
switching between Black Knights that I know of is when Sir Percy 
of Scandia took over Dane's body, and he was from the 6th century, 
not the 12th.  Eobar's not on the MCP -- unless this story happened 
during the Gap, I've never heard of it.

Dane entered Eobar's body in Defenders#11, and left it when it was 
destroyed in Avengers#226.

: Next question: Does this mean that at that point in time, there 
are two Dane Whitmans in there?  The one from before, when he was 
locked in there the first time, and this new present-day, post-
Ultraverse Dane?  If so, when did the first Dane manage to get out, 
seeing as...

I guess that's the case. Unless Dane actually arrived at a point 
before the first time he entered Eobar's body.

: Eobar drops dead halfway through the story?  He allows Sersi to 
kick his soul out of his body so that Dane can use it.  This bothers 
me: where is the alluded-to "original Dane-spirit" during this?  
Where is current-day Dane's original body?  Did it get lost between 
dimensions?  And does this mean that, post BK:Exodus-onward, Dane 
Whitman has been occupying Eobar Garrington's body?  Shudder.  This 
is sloppy storytelling.

Let's just assume that Sersi put Eobar back in before they left. 
It's the only way it can make sense.

: Also, Black Knight II (Sir Raston) is credited to BK:E in the 
MCP, but he is the Black Knight of the 7th century -- "the first 
to wield the blade after sir Percy!" -- and a different character 
that Eobar, the Black Knight of the 12th century.

That would be the fault of me and Russ, I suppose, since I covered 
Black Knight: Exodus for the MCP. I always seem to forget that Sir 
Raston counts as a Black Knight, so I told him that Eobar was the 
2nd Black Knight. My bad.

Michael Hoskin

			*	*	*

Notes on Black Knight: Exodus
Posted by Jeph! on January 07, 2001 at 11:49:52:
In Reply to: Re: Having problems with Black Knight: Exodus
posted by Prime Eternal on January 06, 2001 at 15:07:31:

: : Okay, here's the scoop: I just read Black Knight:Exodus and 
I'm having a hell of a time following the plot.  the story claims 
that once before, Dane Whitman's spirit had been living within 
Eobar Garrington, living the Crusades alongside him for five years. 
Now, has this ever happened in a comic story?

: Dane entered Eobar's body in Defenders#11, and left it when it 
was destroyed in Avengers#226.

Destroyed how?  I only have a few issues from this time period.

: : Next question: Does this mean that at that point in time, 
there are two Dane Whitmans in there?  The one from before, and 
this new present-day, post-Ultraverse Dane?

: I guess that's the case. Unless Dane actually arrived at a point 
before the first time he entered Eobar's body.

From the looks of things, there actually are two Danes in there in 
BK:E.  The issue makes a point of stating that it takes place just 
after Dane's days in the Crusades (putting it between M/FAN 54 and 
A 225).  Should BK:E now count as a behind-the-scenes appearance 
for the A 225-era Dane Whitman?  Should all these issues (Defenders 
#11 through Avengers #226, BK:E included) count towards an MCP 
listing for Eobar Garrington?

: : Eobar drops dead halfway through the story?  He allows Sersi 
to kick his soul out of his body so that Dane can use it.  Where 
is current-day Dane's original body?  And does this mean that, 
post BK:Exodus-onward, Dane Whitman has been occupying Eobar 
Garrington's body?

: Let's just assume that Sersi put Eobar back in before they left. 
It's the only way it can make sense.

That's the only way to read this.  There's a big story gap right 
before the last page -- going from the defeat of Exodus to standing 
around outside his tomb -- and I guess the inference is that in the 
interim, Sersi found Dane's real body, stuck him back in it, and put 
Eobar back where he belonged.

This story gap in BK:E, by the way, is where the 12th-century 
segment of Cable #30 fits.  In Dane's listing, you have it right 
after DEF 11, but it belongs right after M/FAN 54 (seeing as the 
Crusades have ended by BK:E, but are ending in M/FAN 54).

For the record, in this final page, following the logic that Sersi 
has put everything right, only Dane Whitman, Sersi (and Exodus, BTS) 
appear.  Eobar, apparently, is nowhere in sight -- and given that 
in C2 30, which takes place ONE MINUTE before the events of this 
final page of BK:E, the knights are calling Dane "Dane" instead of 
"Eobar", one can assume that Sersi has already separated the 
two -- and therefore, neither Eobar nor the DEF 11-era Dane actually 
make an appearance in that issue -- only the modern-day Dane.

: : Also, Black Knight II (Sir Raston) is credited to BK:E in the 
MCP, but he is the Black Knight of the 7th century and a different 
character than Eobar.

Does this mean that Eobar should be stuck in as Black Knight III, 
with all the following Black Knights bumped up one?

Thanks for the help -- I'm understanding this story much better 
now.  Hope you guys followed my logic above with who actually 
appeared where, and when it all took place.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Notes on Black Knight: Exodus
Posted by Russ Chappell on January 07, 2001 at 18:08:47:
In Reply to: Notes on Black Knight: Exodus
posted by Jeph! on January 07, 2001 at 11:49:52:

: : : Okay, here's the scoop: I just read Black Knight:Exodus and 
I'm having a hell of a time following the plot.  

: : : Next question: Does this mean that at that point in time, 
there are two Dane Whitmans in there?  The one from before, and 
this new present-day, post-Ultraverse Dane?

: : I guess that's the case. Unless Dane actually arrived at a 
point before the first time he entered Eobar's body.

: From the looks of things, there actually are two Danes in there 
in BK:E.  The issue makes a point of stating that it takes place 
just after Dane's days in the Crusades (putting it between M/FAN 
54 and A 225).  Should BK:E now count as a behind-the-scenes 
appearance for the A 225-era Dane Whitman?  Should all these 
issues (Defenders #11 through Avengers #226, BK:E included) count 
towards an MCP listing for Eobar Garrington?

Yes, although they are actual appearances, not behind the scenes.

: : : Also, Black Knight II (Sir Raston) is credited to BK:E in the 
MCP, but he is the Black Knight of the 7th century and a different 
character than Eobar.

: Does this mean that Eobar should be stuck in as Black Knight III, 
with all the following Black Knights bumped up one?

Yup.

			*	*	*

How to archive X-Men Forever?...
Posted by Jeph! on January 06, 2001 at 00:23:55:

Question about the chronologizing of the X-Men Forever series, 
which tells tales of adventures of time-travelling X-Men inhabiting 
their own past bodies:

How will we archive the new appearances of their younger selves?

I mean, example: Mystique of the present day slides back in time 
to X-Factor #130.  Obviously, in her personal chronology, this takes 
place in the present day, just aroundf the time she starts going 
nuts and organizing a new BoEM to kill Kelly (pre X-Men #106, let's 
say).  However, as Mystique is inhabiting her X-Factor #130 body, 
does that count as an "appearance" of XF#130-era Mystique?

We are seeing never-before-seen scenes of where her body was at the 
time, what it did between scenes in X-Factor #130.  Present-day 
Mystique is in charge, but the events are what past-Mystique was 
doing at the time.  Should these scenes merit a behind-the-scenes 
appearance for the character in that time period?:

MYSTIQUE / RAVEN DARKHOLME
...
XF 129
XF 130
XFOREVER 2-BTS
XF 130
...
UXM 380
XFOREVER 2
X 106

Like that?  (I realize that X-Factor 129 and 130 are not currently 
on the MCP, so here's a better example: Mystique inhabits her own 
body, four days after UXM 158, and reads secret government files.  
She then departs, leaving her UXM 158-era body and mind paranoid 
about government plots for years afterward, with no good reason.  
Should it be archived thus?:)

MYSTIQUE
...
UXM 158
XFOREVER 2-BTS
DAZZ 22
...
UXM 380
XFOREVER 2
X 106

Like that?  I think any new material presented to us in this 
fashion about the exploits of Our Heroes in their own pasts 
should be archived twice: a present-day appearance of their 
present-day selves in the past, and a behind-the-scenes past 
appearance of their past selves subsumed under their future 
selves.  A little more work, but a lot more accurate.

	-Jeph!
On a side note, X-Men Forever #2 introduces new scenes for the 
actual past Mystique: her leaving a phony entry in X-Factor's 
computer (before leaving the complex in XF#129) and carrying the 
murder weapon to its location (during XF#130).  These are flashbacks 
to the past Mystique with no trace of her future self in evidence, 
and should be counted as such:

MYSTIQUE
...XF 128
XFOREVER 2-FB
XF 129
XF 130
XFOREVER 2-FB
XFOREVER 2-BTS
XF 130
...
But, that's for when you get around to filling the gap, of course.

			*	*	*

Re: How to archive X-Men Forever?...
Posted by Russ Chappell on January 06, 2001 at 10:26:46:
In Reply to: How to archive X-Men Forever?...
posted by Jeph! on January 06, 2001 at 00:23:55:

> Question about the chronologizing of the X-Men Forever series, 
which tells tales of adventures of time-travelling X-Men inhabiting 
their own past bodies:

> How will we archive the new appearances of their younger selves?

> better example: Mystique inhabits her own body, four days after 
UXM 158, and reads secret government files.  She then departs, 
leaving her UXM 158-era body and mind paranoid about government 
plots for years afterward, with no good reason.  Should it be 
archived thus?:)

: MYSTIQUE
: ...
: UXM 158
: XFOREVER 2-BTS
: DAZZ 22
: ...
: UXM 380
: XFOREVER 2
: X 106
> Like that?  I think any new material presented to us in this 
fashion about the exploits of Our Heroes in their own pasts should 
be archived twice: a present-day appearance of their present-day 
selves in the past, and a behind-the-scenes past appearance of 
their past selves subsumed under their future selves.  A little 
more work, but a lot more accurate.

Others may be better suited to address the question until I've 
gotten around to reading XMF 2, but from what I can glean of your 
description, if Mystique actually appears in XMF 2 circa UX 158, 
I'd drop the BTS notation. If she doesn't appear, it probably 
wouldn't be listed at all.

			*	*	*

Clarification
Posted by Jeph! on January 06, 2001 at 14:05:01:
In Reply to: Re: How to archive X-Men Forever?...
posted by Russ Chappell on January 06, 2001 at 10:26:46:

: Others may be better suited to address the question until I've 
gotten around to reading XMF 2, but from what I can glean of your 
description, if Mystique actually appears in XMF 2 circa UX 158, 
I'd drop the BTS notation. If she doesn't appear, it probably 
wouldn't be listed at all.

Let me try to clarify my earlier comment:

Mystique, circa UX 158, appears in BODY ONLY.  The character we 
physically see on-panel is Mystique circa UX 158, but her form 
is inhabited by the consciousness of Mystique circa X 104.  We 
are seeing two Mystiques in one.  The reason for my BTS notation 
is that the inhabited past bodies have no memory of anything 
happening to them -- their consciousnesses are there, but 
unaware -- effectively behind the scenes.

X-Men Forever #2 has appearances (behind the scenes or not) of 
the past Mystique, Toad, Juggernaut, Iceman, and Phoenix III circa 
UX 158, UX 255, and XF 130, as well as their present-day versions 
circa X 104.  Crrrazy.

Hope that helped...
	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Clarification
Posted by Russ Chappell on January 07, 2001 at 11:26:06:
In Reply to: Clarification
posted by Jeph! on January 06, 2001 at 14:05:01:

Okay, I would drop the BTS. Characters who are unconscious, asleep, 
or even dead have no memory of anything happening to them, but 
they're not behind the scenes, as long as they actually appear 
in the story.

			*	*	*

SENTRY/FANTASTIC FOUR
Posted by Tom Lynch on January 06, 2001 at 09:35:36:

This one's going to be fairly troublesome; the bulk of the issue 
is flashback, and takes place in two different flashback stories, 
plus numerous single pictures which... well, we're not going to 
be able to place them; nowhere near enough information. The first 
flashback story (featuring the Sentry and the FF only) has a 
Startling Stories cover provided; the price is given as 12 cents 
and the issue number is 15; make of that what you will or what 
you can.

All I can say about the other flashback is that the FF are in their 
old uniforms, the Sentry still has a facemask that covers his hair, 
Cloc and the Cosmic Cube feature, and there's mention of an 
'E-Nullifier'. (if I knew more about Sue's changing hairstyles 
over the years, of course, I might be able to fit more in.) 
Nevertheless...

Characters:
SENTRY PRESENT:
Reed Richards
Archangel
Vision (II) - this is the synthezoid, not the character they took 
the look from.
Captain America
Thing
Invisible Woman
Human Torch II
Sentry
Void as lightning storm
Hulk (all but Reed, the Sentry and the Hulk - and the Void - appear 
solely in panel 1, a big panel with them arranged around the Statue 
of Liberty)

FLASHBACK 1: STARTLING STORIES 15
Sentry
Human Torch II
Invisible Woman (or possibly Girl?)
Reed Richards

FLASHBACK 2: GOD ONLY KNOWS
Cosmic Cube
Reed Richards
Sentry
Invisible Woman (or Girl)
Thing
Cloc
Human Torch II
Watchdog (Bob Reynold's pet & sidekick)
Lindy Reynolds

Watchdog is in a single panel, Lindy in two.

Like I say, God only knows where Flashback 2 will go... Flashback 1, 
well, something can probably be done with the publication date 
(April) and the number, but that all depends where - and if - 
Startling Stories get placed in Marvel continuity.

			*	*	*

A note on the Sentry
Posted by Yellow Claw on January 09, 2001 at 06:01:21:
In Reply to: SENTRY/FANTASTIC FOUR
posted by Tom Lynch on January 06, 2001 at 09:35:36:

When I read the five issue Sentry miniseries, my opinion about 
the Sentry was that he was a straightforward continuity implant, 
i.e. an actual forgotten character whom the MU forgot. Now I'm 
not so sure...

I read Sentry/X-Men and Sentry/Spider-Man last week and I'm 
begining to get an increasing suspicion that the Sentry is not 
what we've been led to believe. This hinges on the fact that 
he and the Void seem to have a definite connection to confidence 
or lack thereof. It's just a hunch and not even a complete theory, 
but I'm starting to suspect that neither of them are real. I can't 
really elaborate further yet, but I'm thinking that you guys might 
want to hold off on his chronology until after the Sentry vs the 
Void one-shot comes out.

Sorry to be so cryptic and possibly wrong, but I'm working on 
instinct here!

Cheers,

Yellow Claw.

			*	*	*

Re: A note on the Sentry
Posted by Tom Lynch on January 09, 2001 at 12:41:01:
In Reply to: A note on the Sentry
posted by Yellow Claw on January 09, 2001 at 06:01:21:

: When I read the five issue Sentry miniseries, my opinion about 
the Sentry was that he was a straightforward continuity implant, 
i.e. an actual forgotten character whom the MU forgot. Now I'm 
not so sure...

: I read Sentry/X-Men and Sentry/Spider-Man last week and I'm 
begining to get an increasing suspicion that the Sentry is not 
what we've been led to believe. This hinges on the fact that he 
and the Void seem to have a definite connection to confidence or 
lack thereof. It's just a hunch and not even a complete theory, 
but I'm starting to suspect that neither of them are real. I can't 
really elaborate further yet, but I'm thinking that you guys might 
want to hold off on his chronology until after the Sentry vs the 
Void one-shot comes out.

It's possible, and it's also possible that the events of Sentry/Void 
will wipe him back out of existence, and all events in his comics - 
but if it doesn't happen, it'd be as well to have the info available, 
I think.

			*	*	*

Re: A note on the Sentry
Posted by Tom Lynch on January 09, 2001 at 12:59:55:
In Reply to: Re: A note on the Sentry
posted by Tom Lynch on January 09, 2001 at 12:41:01:

On another note - and this occured to me only after sending the 
original post - even if they are confidence/lack of confidence they 
do appear to be personified. One of them even has an alter ego. I'm 
not sure they should be exempted from the project in the same way 
as, say, the Phoenix Force.

			*	*	*

Spider-Man: Death & Destiny
Posted by SKleefeld on January 07, 2001 at 10:48:31:

The other day, I wrote to Russ and provided analyses of Spider-Man: 
Death and Destinty as it was listed on his "I haven't got these" 
books. He replied, "Have you got Amazing Spider-Man #93?" And 
looking through that issue, I find that it throws a wrench into 
things.

So I thoght I'd put down some of my thoughts on the board, in part 
as a response to Russ, but more to get others' feeback and opinions. 

First, some things to keep in mind:
1) The title page of each issue of Death and Destiny bears the line, 
"The events of this story occur immediately after those in Amazing 
Spider-Man #90."
2) At the beginning of Death and Destiny #3, Gwen forgives Peter 
for not being there for her throughout the death of her father.
3) At the beginning of ASM #93, Gwen wonders aloud why Peter has 
been acting so strangely since the death of her father and she 
hardly ever sees him.
4) At the end of Death and Destiny #3, Peter says that Gwen just 
told him she's going to England.
5) At the beginning of ASM #93, Gwen's Uncle Arthur calls her from 
London and suggests that she live with him.

Now, the line about when Death and Destiny occurs chronologically 
suggests that it's intended to be cannon, despite some problems 
with the story itself. So it seems to me that we need to find out 
how the story can work with the existing (and seemingly contradictory) 
information.

My first thought is this: It's possible that Gwen had already made 
plans to go to England before her father died. A vacation. Flash, 
MJ, and Harry could have convinced her to continue with that vacation 
to help her get on with her life. It's also possible that Gwen's 
uncle, realizing she would already be in Enlgand, suggested that 
she stay with him (instead of a hotel) for additional comfort. In 
fact, that could explain why Uncle Arthur and Gwen always 
specifically mention London instead of just England.

That still leaves Gwen's apparent confusion/resentment of Peter in 
ASM #93. Now I have to admit that my Spidey collection is a bit 
spotty from that period, so I don't have #91-92. But even if Gwen 
forgave Peter in Death and Destiny #3, that still leaves those 2 
issues for Peter to screw up again. Given how Stan wrote, I expect 
he played Peter as staying away from Gwen a great deal and making 
excuses for not being around, as he tried to get rid of his 
frustrations on purse snatchers and petty thugs. After having 
resolved to be more attentive to her in Death and Destiny, Peter's 
absence in ASM #91-92 could easily upset Gwen again and thereby 
gotten Peter pissed enough for that monologue on ASM #93 page 4.

Anyone have any additional thoughts...?

Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Spider-Man: Death & Destiny
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 08, 2001 at 07:33:02:
In Reply to: Spider-Man: Death & Destiny
posted by SKleefeld on January 07, 2001 at 10:48:31:

: Anyone have any additional thoughts...?

I haven't read any of these issues, but is there any reason why 
Death & Destiny can't simply fit in after ASM 93?  I know the 
editorial caption says otherwise, but I tend to view those as 
guidance only, and overridden by contradictory story content.

			*	*	*

Re: Spider-Man: Death & Destiny
Posted by Russ Chappell on January 08, 2001 at 08:52:24:
In Reply to: Re: Spider-Man: Death & Destiny
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 08, 2001 at 07:33:02:

: I haven't read any of these issues, but is there any reason 
why Death & Destiny can't simply fit in after ASM 93?  I know the 
editorial caption says otherwise, but I tend to view those as 
guidance only, and overridden by contradictory story content.

Spoilers for Buffy: "Into the Woods"....

Gwen's plane leaves for London on the last page of ASM 93. Most of 
the second half of the story is Spider-Man's race to intercept the 
departure of the plane, much like "Into the Woods", or for that 
matter, "Casablanca."

			*	*	*

Re: Spider-Man: Death & Destiny
Posted by Jeph! on January 08, 2001 at 17:26:44:
In Reply to: Re: Spider-Man: Death & Destiny
posted by Russ Chappell on January 08, 2001 at 08:52:24:

: : is there any reason why Death & Destiny can't simply fit in 
after ASM 93?

: Spoilers for Buffy: "Into the Woods"....

: Gwen's plane leaves for London on the last page of ASM 93. Most 
of the second half of the story is Spider-Man's race to intercept 
the departure of the plane, much like "Into the Woods", or for 
that matter, "Casablanca."

Well then, why can't the issue take place DURING ASM 93?  Say, 
after Gwen's uncle calls her, but before the chase to catch her 
plane?  Is there a story gap -- ANY gap -- that can be exploited 
to fit Death&Destiny 3?

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Spider-Man: Death & Destiny
Posted by SKleefeld on January 09, 2001 at 13:55:35:
In Reply to: Re: Spider-Man: Death & Destiny
posted by Jeph! on January 08, 2001 at 17:26:44:

: : : is there any reason why Death & Destiny can't simply fit in 
after ASM 93?

: : Spoilers for Buffy: "Into the Woods"....

: : Gwen's plane leaves for London on the last page of ASM 93. Most 
of the second half of the story is Spider-Man's race to intercept 
the departure of the plane, much like "Into the Woods", or for that 
matter, "Casablanca."

: Well then, why can't the issue take place DURING ASM 93?  Say, 
after Gwen's uncle calls her, but before the chase to catch her 
plane?  Is there a story gap -- ANY gap -- that can be exploited 
to fit Death&Destiny 3?

That was my thought, too. The problem I ran into here was that Gwen 
is severly distraught with Peter at the beginning of ASM #93, but 
the only gap in the story occurs right after Spider-Man is swinging 
around and resolves to tell Gwen that he really is Spider-Man. If we 
were to drop Death & Destiny in there, then Peter would suddenly 
have to decide not to tell Gwen his secret and decide to really 
focus on Doc Ock and then change his mind back on both counts to 
jump back into ASM.

Technically, I suppose it could go there, but it really doesn't 
make much sense.

Sean

			*	*	*

Baron Heinrich Zemo chronology
Posted by Yellow Claw on January 09, 2001 at 06:21:07:

Further to a previous post by myself on this suject, I have further 
info. I am currently writing a Baron Zemo biography for my villains 
website and have spotted what I believe to be mistakes in his 
existing chronology.

ZEMO/BARON HEINRICH ZEMO
SGT. FURY 8
A 6-FB
CA 168-FB
CA '98-FB
TB -1-FB
CA: MEDUSA EFFECT
CA:SL2 12-FB
A 56-FB
CA:SL2 12-FB
A 56-FB
A 4-FB
A 56-FB
SPIDER-MAN: FEAR ITSELF-FB
TB -1
A 6
MARVELS 2-BTS
A 6
A 7
A 9
A 10
TOS 60/2
CA 221/2
A 15
A 131
A 132
GSA 3
A 15
CA 357/2-BTS
A 353
A 354

Firstly, I still maintain that Zemo's appearance in Medusa Effect 
occurs prior to CA '98-FB, thus:

CA: MEDUSA EFFECT
CA '98-FB
TB -1-FB

instead of 

CA '98-FB
TB -1-FB
CA: MEDUSA EFFECT

This is primarily due to the dating of these stories.

Secondly, the second story in CA 221 is definitely an hallucination 
on Rick Jones' behalf and therefore does not feature the real Baron 
Zemo. I therefore contend that Zemo's chronology should read:

ZEMO/BARON HEINRICH ZEMO
SGT. FURY 8
A 6-FB
CA 168-FB
CA: MEDUSA EFFECT
CA '98-FB
TB -1-FB
CA:SL2 12-FB
A 56-FB
CA:SL2 12-FB
A 56-FB
A 4-FB
A 56-FB
SPIDER-MAN: FEAR ITSELF-FB
TB -1
A 6
MARVELS 2-BTS
A 6
A 7
A 9
A 10
TOS 60/2
A 15
A 131
A 132
GSA 3
A 15
CA 357/2-BTS
A 353
A 354

If anyone disagrees I'd be interested in hearing why simply for 
the sake of my own website. If not, I hope this I useful.

Cheers,

Yellow Claw.

			*	*	*

Re: Baron Heinrich Zemo chronology
Posted by Ron Flick on June 08, 2001 at 17:19:15:
In Reply to: Baron Heinrich Zemo chronology
posted by Yellow Claw on January 09, 2001 at 06:21:07:

I agree with your chronology, but was wondering if you have 
intentionallly left out Fantastic Four Annual #11, which expands 
on the events shown in Avengers #6?  The Annual was written by 
Roy Thomas during the first Invaders run and shows the events of 
Captain America's first encounter with Zemo, Adhesive X, and the 
hood.  Do you perhaps put this in an alternate universe, because 
it deals with time travel?  Just wondering.

			*	*	*

Shanna Chronology
Posted by David M. Smith on January 09, 2001 at 10:18:10:

In the MCP, you have Shanna's chronology listed like this:

RH 9/2-FB
SVT 8
SVT 9/2
SVT 10/2
RH 9/2
SSD 1
SSD 2
SSD 3
SSD 4
SSD 5
KZ2 1
KZ2 2
DD 111-FB
DD 109
M/TIO 3
DD 110
DD 111
DD 112
DD 113
DD 117
M/FAN 56
.
.
.

However, it should be like this:
RH 9/2-FB
SSD 1
SSD 2
SSD 3
SSD 4
SSD 5
KZ2 1
KZ2 2
DD 111-FB
DD 109
M/TIO 3
DD 110
DD 111
DD 112
DD 113
DD 117
SVT 8
SVT 9/2
SVT 10/2
RH 9/2
M/FAN 56
.
.
.

The reasons are:

1) The savage tales and Rampaging Hulk stories must take place 
after Shanna's own series as one by one, her supporting cast is 
killed off.

2) SVT 8 is a Ka-zar and Shanna team-up where the two already know 
each other whereas Kz2 1 is their first meeting (and thus svt8 takes 
place sometime after kz2 2)

3) kz2 2 leads into the dd storyline for Shanna, thus the savage 
tales appearance have to be after that storyline.

4) the M/FAN storyline was, IIRC, the unpunlished continuation of 
the SVT and RH storyline.

Also you have the SVT 8 in read text (indictating first published 
appearance?), while I don't have the issues handy at the moment, 
I do believe Shanna's first published appearance was SSD 1 
(1971/2-ish) not SVT 8 (1974/5-ish).

			*	*	*

Sentry/X-Men
Posted by Tom Lynch on January 09, 2001 at 12:57:33:

Once again, largely flashback. I gather the Sentry/someone else 
issues - except Sentry:Void - are concurrent, near as makes no 
difference, in the 'present' sections. Of course, nothing happens 
in the 'Present' sections.

However...

The flashback is not given an issue number, but according to 
Warren's reminiscences he'd had only 'two or three missions' 
described as 'the X-Men had faced a couple of villains - you'd 
even survived a minor scuffle with Magneto'. So we're talking 
very early on in X-Men chronology (before Magneto's second fight 
against them). But the Sentry has changed his costume from the 
look described in my Sentry/FF post about both of their flashbacks - 
the part of his mask that covers his hair is gone. Therefore both 
Sentry/FF flashbacks date back to before that.

However:

PRESENT: Archangel
Reed Richards
Sentry
Hulk (one panel, in silhouette, small. Reed doesn't get much better)
Void (as lightning storm)

FLASHBACK:
Angel
Professor X
Beast
Marvel Girl I
Cyclops
Iceman
Cloc
Sentry
The General (I don't know if he's appeared anywhere else. Uses 
miniaturised tanks and other military craft with strange devices 
to disarm each of the X-Men's powers, apparently has a penchant 
for such.)

			*	*	*

Re: Sentry/X-Men
Posted by SKleefeld on January 09, 2001 at 14:05:11:
In Reply to: Sentry/X-Men
posted by Tom Lynch on January 09, 2001 at 12:57:33:

: The flashback is not given an issue number, but according to 
Warren's reminiscences he'd had only 'two or three missions' 
described as 'the X-Men had faced a couple of villains - you'd 
even survived a minor scuffle with Magneto'. So we're talking 
very early on in X-Men chronology (before Magneto's second fight 
against them). But the Sentry has changed his costume from the 
look described in my Sentry/FF post about both of their flashbacks - 
the part of his mask that covers his hair is gone. Therefore both 
Sentry/FF flashbacks date back to before that.

Curious, though, that the Startling Stories covers pictured both 
have 15 cover prices. The going rate for a Marvel comic was only 
12 until X-Men #58 and FF #89.

Then again, maybe the Startling Stories covers were embossed or 
foil-stamped or something.  :)

Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Sentry/X-Men
Posted by Tom Lynch on January 10, 2001 at 10:33:04:
In Reply to: Re: Sentry/X-Men
posted by SKleefeld on January 09, 2001 at 14:05:11:

: Curious, though, that the Startling Stories covers pictured both 
have 15 cover prices. The going rate for a Marvel comic was only 
12 until X-Men #58 and FF #89.

: Then again, maybe the Startling Stories covers were embossed or 
foil-stamped or something.  :)

Checked my copies of Sentry/FF and Sentry/X-Men. Both of mine 
display 12 cent title prices... but the Sentry/FF title was 
Startling Stories#15, as far as I can make out.

			*	*	*

Open letter to Russ re: Captain Britain
Posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2001 at 13:40:14:

Russ,

I'm writing this letter to thank you, publicly, for including my 
Captain Britain work on the MCP.  I was beginning to despair of 
ever having it see the light of day -- my name finally appearing 
on your updates page was a happy surprise.  Thanks so much, you 
made my evening.

And what an inclusion!  I was expecting just my recent CB #1-20 to 
be archived -- but instead, you went back and included CB's entire 
UK comic history, with nearly all of my suggested changes thrown 
in!  Thank you!

(Of course, this means you have broken your rule about including 
books that have not been completely archived.  I guess I'd better 
hurry up and archive the things for you then, huh?)  ;)

In any case, Russ, you gave me a wonderful surprise.  Thank you.

Now, even though I really appreciate the work that just went into 
that update, I'm going to make a few suggestions for correction.  
Please don't be offended -- it's in my nature.  :)

First off, I see you labeled the "Marvel Super-Heroes" UK magazine 
as M/SH2 -- but I thought that there already WAS a volume two in the 
Key, a pre-existing US book.  What happened to it?

Next up, I think we agreed a while ago that the MWM/ book that CB 
appears in is actually UK's "Mighty World of Marvel" volume *2*.  
As MWM/vol.1 is completely a reprint book, you may not want to change 
the listing -- but you may want to mention in the Key that MWM/ 
stands for "Mighty World" vol. 2.

Next, actual problems in CB's listing itself:

The flashback in XCAL 36 is placed too early -- that flashback 
involves Brian's early work at Darkmoor, and the flashbacks that 
currently follow it -- Brian in high school (DDS1) and the death 
of his parents (CB 14 and DDS 1), occur before he began work at 
Darkmoor.  In fact, Brian hadn't been working at Darkmoor very long 
when he became Captain Britain, as shown in CB 1-FB.  The XCAL 36 
flashback should be moved up to reflect this.  Also, in this same 
time period, there is a currently omitted flashback in DDS-2 that 
shows more details about Brian's whereabouts during the death of 
his parents.  It is a two-panel flashback, projected by a computer, 
and while panel two is a forgery designed to drive Brian insane, 
panel one is an actual, accurate flashback.

the listing should therefore read:

EXC@2-FB
DDS 1-FB
CB 14-FB
*DDS 2-FB
DDS 1-FB
*XCAL 36-FB
CB 1-FB...and so on.

Next up, you have accidentally omitted the flashback from CB 26, 
which took place between CB's 18 and 20 and explained why CB was 
missing in #19.  The listing should read:
...
CB 17
CB 18
*CB 26-FB
CB 20
CB 21...and so on.

Next, you have also omitted two flashbacks occuring in MWM/ 16.  One, 
a pre-taped TV interview with Brian, may not actually be considered 
a flashback, but the other -- Brian freeing Emma Collins from the 
computer's control -- is definitely an actual flashback.  Both can 
be placed to right before the issue -- in between MWM/ 15 and 16.  
The listing should read:
...
MWM/ 14
MWM/ 15
*MWM/ 16-FB
*MWM/ 16-FB
MWM/ 16
CB2 1...and so on.

Finally, as a side note unrelated to my archiving, you have 
Excalibur #minus-1 in CB's chronology, occuring bizarrely just 
after XCAL 8.  XCAL -1 was set in Nightcrawler's circus days, 
long before the formation of Excalibur, and did not feature Captain 
Britain at all.  I'm not sure why this issue is in there, but I'm 
pretty sure it's a typo, and I just wanted to bring it to your 
attention.

That's all I could find to pick at.  Thanks again, Russ, for 
bothering to include my work at all, mistakes or not.  I'm honored 
to finally be a part of the MCP.

	-Jeph!
who, inspired by this, is no doubt going to dump a whole load of 
other stuff on you, whining and cajoling you to include it...  ;)

			*	*	*

Re: Open letter to Russ re: Captain Britain
Posted by Russ Chappell on January 09, 2001 at 18:46:13:
In Reply to: Open letter to Russ re: Captain Britain
posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2001 at 13:40:14:

> (Of course, this means you have broken your rule about including 
books that have not been completely archived.  I guess I'd better 
hurry up and archive the things for you then, huh?)  ;)

Don't let me down, Jeph :)

> First off, I see you labeled the "Marvel Super-Heroes" UK magazine 
as M/SH2 -- but I thought that there already WAS a volume two in the 
Key, a pre-existing US book.  What happened to it?

Actually, there wasn't. Only Volumes 1 and 3 were in the Key. I had 
no idea what Volume 2 was supposed to be, until you posted.

Russ

			*	*	*

Re: Open letter to Russ re: Captain Britain
Posted by Paul Eke (aka TK-421) on January 12, 2001 at 13:35:31:
In Reply to: Re: Open letter to Russ re: Captain Britain
posted by Russ Chappell on January 09, 2001 at 18:46:13:

: > First off, I see you labeled the "Marvel Super-Heroes" UK 
magazine as M/SH2 -- but I thought that there already WAS a volume 
two in the Key, a pre-existing US book.  What happened to it?

: Actually, there wasn't. Only Volumes 1 and 3 were in the Key. I 
had no idea what Volume 2 was supposed to be, until you posted.

I'm pretty sure that this isn't it.  Marvel US were not in the 
habit of refelcting UK publications in their volume numbers and 
MSH vol 3 (the ones that were titled Winter Special, Spring Special 
etc) were clearly labelled in the indicia as vol 3.

After a quick look in a price guide I think I have the answer.

Vol 1 was a one-shot published in 1966 (USA) and was completely 
reprint
vol 2 was the the retitled Fantasy Masterpieces beginning with #12 
in  December 1967.
Vol 3 is the early 90's series as previosly mentioned

			*	*	*

Re: Open letter to Russ re: Captain Britain
Posted by Russ Chappell on January 12, 2001 at 23:41:33:
In Reply to: Re: Open letter to Russ re: Captain Britain
posted by Paul Eke (aka TK-421) on January 12, 2001 at 13:35:31:

: After a quick look in a price guide I think I have the answer.

: Vol 1 was a one-shot published in 1966 (USA) and was completely 
reprint
: vol 2 was the the retitled Fantasy Masterpieces beginning with #12 
in  December 1967.
: Vol 3 is the early 90's series as previosly mentioned

True enough, but we're talking about the MCP's volume numbers, 
not Marvel's, which don't necessarily coincide. For instance, 
what we refer to as Hulk Vol. 3 (the current series), Marvel 
calls "Volume 1" in the indicia.

Jeph was saying above that he thought the MCP already recognized 
some other version as M/SH2, and I was saying that we hadn't.

			*	*	*

Captain Marvel#10
Posted by Prime Eternal on January 09, 2001 at 14:40:26:

Continued from Captain Marvel#9.

Characters: Kelly, Moondragon, Silver Surfer, Captain Marvel, 
Rick Jones, Super-Skrull, and the Intelligentsia.

At the conclusion of this story, Kelly uses her powers to prevent 
herself from ever having received cosmic awareness.

Michael Hoskin

			*	*	*

Marvel Knights#4
Posted by Prime Eternal on January 09, 2001 at 14:49:18:

YES!

I really wanted to bring up something related to this issue, so 
I'm glad I have this opportunity.

Appearing in this issue: Zaran II, Black Widow, Daredevil, Dagger, 
Shang-Chi, Moon Knight, Cloak, Punisher, Nick Fury and Fu Manchu.

Continued from the previous issue. Following the encounter with 
Ulik, Daredevil, the Black Widow, Dagger and Shang-Chi decide to 
form a team to hunt down the Punisher, who is simultaneously spying 
on them. Also, Moon Knight proposes himself for membership, Nick 
Fury confronts the Black Widow, and Zaran retrieves...something...
from AIM for Fu Manchu.

Note that although Fu Manchu is not named in the story, he IS 
Shang's father. They may yet decide to make Shang's father someone 
else, but for now, this is an appearance by Fu Manchu.

Now, what I really wanted to talk about- Zaran.

In my estimation, this is NOT an appearance by the original Zaran, 
but by the second Zaran from Master of Kung Fu: Bleeding Black. My 
reasoning is:

#1: It would explain why Zaran is still wearing his old costume 
in Wolverine#158.

#2: It makes Marvel Knights#4-7 fit better. :-)

#3: Although Zaran I DID work for Fu Manchu in the past (MOKF#83), it 
was only so that he and his employer- Fu's daughter Fah Lo Suee- 
could betray him. Zaran I aided Shang-Chi and his allies in defeating 
Fu Manchu in MOKF#88-89. Based on that, I can't see Fu Manchu trusting 
Zaran I.

#4: On the other hand, Zaran II aided the Si-Fan in Bleeding Black, 
during Shadow-Hand's bid for leadership. I have an easier time seeing 
him working for Fu Manchu.

#5: Although we do not know Zaran II's nationality, Zaran I was an 
Englishman. Since Marvel Knights#7 depicts Zaran as an Asian when 
his mask is off, it can't be Zaran I.

There, I've made my case. :-)

Michael Hoskin

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Knights#4
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 10, 2001 at 07:01:26:
In Reply to: Marvel Knights#4
posted by Prime Eternal on January 09, 2001 at 14:49:18:

: In my estimation, this is NOT an appearance by the original
Zaran, but by the second Zaran from Master of Kung Fu: Bleeding 
Black. My reasoning is:

: #1: It would explain why Zaran is still wearing his old costume 
in Wolverine#158.

Perhaps more importantly, Wolverine #158 basically depicts Zaran I 
as a washed-up has-been henchman, who makes vaguely bitter comments 
about Zaran II getting beaten up by Shang-Chi.  Hard to reconcile 
with him being the same character as in Marvel Knights.

			*	*	*

Magneto: Dark Seduction #4
Posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2001 at 16:54:49:
Per Russ's open request, here's a brief synopsis/chronology for 
"Magneto: Dark Seduction #4".

"By Right of Force" - part 4 of 4 by Fabian Nicieza, Michael Ryan, 
and Jorge Santamaria-Garcia

Characters appearing:
Magneto<br>Polaris
Quicksilver
the Scarlet Witch
Goliath I (Hank Pym)
She-Hulk
Iron Man
Triathlon
the Wasp
Jenny Ransome
Pipeline
Scanner
Phillip Moreau
Alda Huxley
Fabian Cortez
Warbird
Frenzy/Joanna Cargill
Amelia Voght
and the Mysterious Voice in Magneto's Head

All appeared last in M:DS#3.

Magneto, finally inside Carrion Cove, battles Polaris and his 
children for control of the device that will restore his lost 
magnetic powers.  The Avengers continue their clean-up of the 
avalanche Magneto caused last issue, and Alda Huxley reveals 
that Fabian Cortez was behind the recent rebellions on the island.  
Magneto successfully recovers his powers, kills Fabian Cortez, 
immobilizes the Avengers, and angrily explains to them that Cortez 
had help -- from the Roxxon corporation.  He then orders the 
Avengers off his land -- and Polaris goes with them.  Two days 
later, however, Polaris and Quicksilver sneak back onto Genoshan 
soil via rowboat, preparing to sabotage Magneto's new world order 
from the inside out...

Notes:  This story was originally written to reveal the identity 
of the telepathic voice that speaks to Magneto all through this 
series -- but due to editorial mandate, that revelation was removed.  
If and when it is eventually revealed, let the record show that 
he/she/it appeared in all four issues of M:DS.

This issue takes place right after M:DS 3, meaning that for the 
Avengers, most of them appear next in the Deadpool/Black Panther 
"Cat Trap" crossover, then issue 31 of their own title.  All other 
characters, including Magneto, have not been seen since.

	-Jeph!
see, give me one measly credit on the MCP and I start becoming 
"helpful" to the point of annoyance...  ;)

			*	*	*

Scorpion and Mr. Hyde
Posted by Dr Bruce Banner on January 09, 2001 at 17:21:36:

In Captain America #151 (page with the 11 in the corner) it is 
revealed that the Scorpion and Mr. Hyde from Daredevil 82 and 83 
were androids.

Unless this was changed later those appearances should be taken off 
their chronologies

Dr Bruce Banner

			*	*	*

Gambit #21
Posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2001 at 18:24:09:

Per Russ's open request, here's a brief synopsis/chronology for 
Gambit #21.

"A Sheep in Wolf's Clothing" by Fabian Nicieza and Yanick Paquette

Characters appearing:
Mercy LeBeau
Emil Lapin
Gambit
Minister Tome
Minister Hoard
>Gris Gris
Theoren Marceaux
Bella Donna Boudreaux
Tante Mattie
Carl Denti (the X-Cutioner, although not in costume)
Courier
Mystique
Fontanelle
New Son (sic) - off-panel

Characters in flashback 1:
Gambit
Jean-Luc LeBeau

Characters in flashback 2:
Mercy LeBeau

Gambit, determined to find all the information he can on his past and 
how it ties in to Guild prophecies and a government program known as 
Black Womb, uses Guild resources to hack into hospital records; to no 
avail: all records of his birth are gone.  A Guild ceremony, the 
Unveiling, similarly turns up nothing: a locked chest, containing 
information on the Guild prophecies of the Old Kingdom, is 
mysteriously empty.  Gambit has slightly more luck sneaking into the 
Pentagon: despite Mystique's interference, Gambit and Courier discover 
files on Black Womb -- but upon returning to the Guild, Gambit 
discovers that all the missing data has been destroyed by the Guild 
itself -- at the order of Gambit's father...

Flashback 1:  a one-panel flashback taking place during Gambit #16 -- 
Jean-Luc LeBeau hands control of the Thieves' Guild over to Remy, 
before taking off to parts unknown.

Flashback 2:  a one-panel flashback taking place between pages 1 and 
2 of this issue, it concerns Mercy LeBeau knocking out a guard.  If 
it matters, she appears on both pages one and two, so her chronology 
for this issue should read:
GAM3 21
GAM3 21-FB
GAM3 21

Continuity...
- Jean-Luc LeBeau (in flashback #1) appeared last in GAM3 15-FB, and 
next in GAM3@'00/2.
- Gambit (in flashback #1) appeared last in GAM3 16 (p5), and next in 
GAM3 16 (p8).  He then appeared in the X-Men's "pirates" storyline, 
then GAM3 16 again (pages 1 and 22), then GAM3 17-19 and GAM3@'00, 
then GAM3 20, which brings us to...
- Gambit (main story) appeared last in GAM3 20, and next in UXM 386, 
then in X-MEN FOREVER #1 with Mystique, then in GAM3 22 (with Rax, 
following the latter's appearance in X 106).
- Mystique appeared last in X 105, and next in X-Men FOREVER #1-6 -- 
then next in X 106.
- Mercy LeBeau, as mentioned above, last appeared in GAM3 19, then in 
this issue's main story, then in this issue's flashback #2, then in 
this issue's main story again, and next in GAM3 22.
- Emil Lapin, Gris Gris, Theoren Marceux, Bella Donna Boudreaux, and 
Tante Mattie appeared last in GAM3 19, and next in GAM3 22.
- Fontanelle appeared last in GAM3 20, and next in GAM3 22.
- Both Courier and the New Sun (still being spelled New Son at this 
point) appeared last in GAM3@'00, and next in GAM3 22.
- Minister Tome and Minister Hoard most likely appeared last in the 
crowd at the mandatory Thieves' Guild meeting in GAM3 16, and 
definitely appeared next in GAM3 22.
- Carl Denti, the X-Cutioner, appeared last in GAM3@'00, and has not 
appeared since.

>Phew!  There you go -- hope it helps.

	-Jeph!
who spent far too long looking for Tome and Hoard's prior appearances...

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit #21
Posted by Jeph! on January 10, 2001 at 19:38:13:
In Reply to: Gambit #21
posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2001 at 18:24:09:

Updates on "last and next" appearances, based on the "X-Men Forever" 
thread above -- bringing some appearances in line thanks to Paul's 
"new official" placing for X-Men Forever #1 in X-chronology.

- Gambit (in flashback #1) appeared last in GAM3 16 (p5), and next 
in GAM3 16 (p8).  He then appeared in the X-Men's "pirates" storyline 
(to UXM 385), then X-MEN FOREVER #1 with Mystique, then GAM3 16 again 
(pp 1 and 22), then GAM3 17-19 and GAM3@'00, then GAM3 20, which 
brings us to...

- Gambit (main story) appeared last in GAM3 20, and next in UXM 386, 
then in GAM3 22 (with Rax, following the latter's appearance in X 106).

- Mystique appeared last in X 105 (and prior to that in X-MEN FOREVER 
#1-6), and next in X 106.

There we go ... that should do it.
	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit #21: OOPS!
Posted by Jeph! on January 10, 2001 at 22:17:19:
In Reply to: Re: Gambit #21
posted by Jeph! on January 10, 2001 at 19:38:13:

I'm gonna try this one more time.  Gambit's chronology harder to 
handle than a bag of cats.

Here, for real this time, is my take on Gambit's chronology from 
the flashback in issue 21 up through the main story in #21.  You 
may wonder why I care.  I wonder myself, some days.

Here's the problem: Kitty Pryde appears in GAM3@'00, the wrap-up to 
the 4-part "Assassination Game" that controls Gambit's life from 
issues 16 to 19.  She vanished in X 100, and has not been seen since.  
So, unfortunately, everything prior to GAM3@'00 has to be placed 
*before* X 100 (and UX 381).

Also, I left out a flashback in GAM3 17 to just prior to the 
beginning of GAM3 16.  Horrors.

I tried to keep the placing of UX 379 and 380 towards the front of 
the list, seeing as there is a six-month gap between UX 380 and 
X 100...

Once more:  Gambit appeared in:
GAM3 16 (p2-5)
UX 379
UX 380
GAM3 21-FB
GAM3 16 (p8-21)
GAM3 17-FB
GAM3 16 (pp1 and 22)
GAM3 17
GAM3 18
GAM3 19
GAM3@'00
GAM3 20
UX 381
UX 382
UX 383-FB
UX 383
UX 384
X 104
UX 385
X-FOREVER 1
GAM3 21
UX 386
GAM3 22
...and so on.

It should be noted that Colossus, Shadowcat, and Archangel also 
appear in GAM3@'00, and this should be pushed back to before X 100 
in their chronologies as well.

Also, in a side note to Gambit #21's write-up, Ministers Tome and 
Hoard were *not* necessarily in the crowd at the Thieves' Guild 
meeting in issue #16 (they being of the Antiquary's clan, separate 
from the LeBeaus and their ilk.)  They *were*, however, definitely 
last seen in GAM3 4 -- which was also their first appearance.

I need a vacation.  Wait -- this *is* my vacation.  I need a life.
	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Hold up on that theah car wash
Posted by Russ Chappell on January 10, 2001 at 23:15:30:
In Reply to: Re: Gambit #21: OOPS!
posted by Jeph! on January 10, 2001 at 22:17:19:

> Here's the problem: Kitty Pryde appears in GAM3@'00, the wrap-up 
to the 4-part "Assassination Game" that controls Gambit's life from 
issues 16 to 19.  She vanished in X 100, and has not been seen 
since.  So, unfortunately, everything prior to GAM3@'00 has to be 
placed *before* X 100 (and UX 381).

> Once more:  Gambit appeared in:
> GAM3@'00
> GAM3 20
> UX 381

> It should be noted that Colossus, Shadowcat, and Archangel 
also appear in GAM3@'00, and this should be pushed back to before 
X 100 in their chronologies as well.

Gambit's narration in the Annual seems to indicate otherwise.

Page 11, Panel 2: "She doesn't crack a smile. Kitty Pryde's been 
havin' a rough time of things lately...having just returned to the 
X-Men after a brief absence."

The "brief absence" is intended to refer to concurrent issues of 
X-Men. The footnote mentions "upcoming" issues, but that could be 
a reference to her return, rather than the absence itself.

			*	*	*

Re: Hold up on that theah car wash
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 11, 2001 at 08:03:47:
In Reply to: Hold up on that theah car wash
posted by Russ Chappell on January 10, 2001 at 23:15:30:

: Gambit's narration in the Annual seems to indicate otherwise.

: Page 11, Panel 2: "She doesn't crack a smile. Kitty Pryde's been 
havin' a rough time of things lately...having just returned to the 
X-Men after a brief absence."

: The "brief absence" is intended to refer to concurrent issues of 
X-Men. The footnote mentions "upcoming" issues, but that could be 
a reference to her return, rather than the absence itself.

That was certainly the idea, but it's impossible.  That Gambit 
annual is locked in place between two specific issues of his series.  
Since his series crossed over into Maximum Security, we know from 
this that the annual takes place before Max Sec.

But after Max Sex, the X-Men are still commenting that Shadowcat's 
missing.  There's no possible way that she can have returned from 
her Neo disappearance in time to appear in that Gambit annual.  
The only possible placing is to ignore the footnote and place the 
annual before X-Men #100 (the storyline leading into her departure).

			*	*	*

Re: Hold up on that theah car wash
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 11, 2001 at 08:04:53:
In Reply to: Re: Hold up on that theah car wash
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 11, 2001 at 08:03:47:

: But after Max Sex, the X-Men are still commenting that Shadowcat's 
missing.

Uh, I mean Max Sec.  I know they're trying to be less angst-ridden, 
but life at the Mansion's not THAT fun.

			*	*	*

"car wash"?
Posted by Jeph! on January 11, 2001 at 16:07:05:
In Reply to: Hold up on that theah car wash
posted by Russ Chappell on January 10, 2001 at 23:15:30:

Re: Kitty's disappearance/reappearance relative to Gambit...

: Gambit's narration in the Annual:

: Page 11, Panel 2: "Kitty Pryde's been havin' a rough time of 
things lately...having just returned to the X-Men after a brief 
absence."

: The "brief absence" is intended to refer to concurrent issues 
of X-Men. The footnote mentions "upcoming" issues, but that could 
be a reference to her return, rather than the absence itself.

I think Paul argued the best possible refutation of this -- the 
Maximum Security crossover.  However, that narration -- Kitty's 
implied "absence" -- could in this case be taken to mean her unseen 
adventure in Genosha, referred to in X-Men #100 as the reason she 
was so cold and angry in that issue.  Smart money says her father 
died, but I think at this poiint we'll never know.

: > It should be noted that Colossus, Shadowcat, and Archangel also 
appear in GAM3@'00, and this should be pushed back to before X 100 
in their chronologies as well.

Also, I left out Nightcrawler.  Him too.

	-Jeph!

Max Sex?  I'd like to read THAT crossover...

			*	*	*

Ideas on placing X-Men: Search for Cyclops and X-Men Forever...
Posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2001 at 19:30:08:

Here's me being "helpful" again.  ;)  Don't worry, I'll be going 
soon.  Just had this one more thing to say.

X-Men miniseries are often hard to fit into mainstream books' 
continuity.  "X-Men: the Search for Cyclops" is so very vague, so 
far, that there are no clues in it to help us place it.  However, 
a clue has just been dropped in the core books that needs to be 
noted.

In the Search for Cyclops miniseries, Cable and Phoenix venture off 
on their own to find out what happened to Scott Summers.  Presumably, 
by issue #4 they will recover him and return home in triumph.  As 
this has not happened in the core books yet, presumably they haven't 
left yet -- every appearance to date for Cable and Phoenix needs to 
come before X:Search for Cyclops #1.

However, at the X-Men's Christmas party in X 109, Cable and Jean are 
consipicuously absent.  As they were there for Moira's funeral in 
that month's UXM 389, and that was followed up on in Cable #88, 
presumably the miniseries starts up right there; between C2 88 and 
X 109.  Hopefully, the duo will make no more appearances in the core 
books until they return with Cyclops in tow.  If not, the mini begins 
right after *those* appearances, but for now it seems safe to start 
it there.

The "X-Men Forever" series, on the other hand, while very well-
researched in the past timelines of our heroes, runs into some very 
bad continuity problems in terms of fitting in with its contemporary 
books.  Problems include rationalizing Mystique's change from subtle 
manipulatrix to genocidal madwoman, Toad's change from fatt-butt 
Toynbee into Ray Park, and Kelly's pro-mutant speech in X-FOREVER#1.  
An editorial caption in issue #2 states that this series occurs 
before X-Men #106, fixing things some, but I'm writing this to try 
to figure out exactly WHERE before X 106.

Simple answer: the series occurs JUST before X-Men #106.  Why?  
Mainly, Mystique.  She appears in X-Men #104 and 105 before this, 
musing to herself that Kelly must be "stopped".  In X 105 she spies 
Cable working undercover as one of Kelly's bodyguards.  She also 
sneaks onto Muir Island to consult one of Destiny's diaries for 
guidance.  Relatively rational-minded things to do, but by X-Men #106 
she's out for blood, assembling the Brotherhood of Mutants to 
assassinate Kelly and preparing to unleash the Legacy Virus on 
humanity.

However, in Gambit #21 Mystique is still in "subtle" mode, working 
in the Capitol building under an alias -- and in X-Men Forever #1 
she's actually working FOR Kelly, as a political aide by the name 
of Holt Adler.  How can this be rationalized?

Simple: all Mystique wants to do is make sure Kelly's *point of view* 
gets silenced.  In X-Men Forever, according to Prosh, she is in 
Kelly's camp trying to *maipulate him on issues of policy*.  She most 
likely was inspired by spying Cable in X 105, and most likely got 
herself the job through her work at the Capitol during Gambit #21.  
During or after the X-Men Forever series, SOMEthing traumatic happens 
to Mystique -- we'll have to watch the rest of that series for clues 
and inferences -- and by X 106 she's given up on manipulating Kelly, 
and is ready to kill him.

Kelly's pro-mutant speech in X-Men Forever #1 is another bone of 
contention with continuity fans, but nowhere is it ever plainly said 
that Kelly has been running on an anti-mutant platform.  He's been 
deliberately vague all along.  In fact, the whole ironic story 
thrust of UXM 388 is that, just as he's making the speech that 
"outs" him as pro-mutant, the Brotherhood attacks him.

But it's never ruled out that he made one pro-mutant speech before 
that day.  In fact, dialogue from X 106, which is now supposed to 
take place *after* that speech, may actually support its existence:

Sharon Carter: "People are already AFRAID of mutants, Val.  Kelly's 
making it respectable to ACT on that fear."

Val Cooper:  "If you LISTEN to that man, if you READ his speeches, 
that isn't what he's saying."

Carter:  "People tend to hear what they want, on BOTH sides."

Kelly:  "Growing up, I laughed at the H-BOMB, I was so scared, that 
was the only way to stay sane  I submit MUTANTS qualify for the 
same response.  I find myself in a unique position.  People want to 
hear what I have to say.  With that power comes an unparalleled 
RESPONSIBILITY  to  thereby bring about a better world."

That sounds vaguely pro-mutant to me -- but it was in private, and 
I'll wager that similar statements in his speeches got lost amid 
the tide of vague-speak characterizing the rest of his speeches in 
the main X-Books.  Few people took note of his hidden pro-mutant 
statements because few people wanted to.  By the time of X 106, 
his campaign is still sufficiently vague for zealots like Mystique 
to want to see a reason to kill him, despite his one actively 
pro-mutant speech.

Based on Mystique's various attempts to control Kelly, I'd have to 
say that the X-Books' chronology for that time period are:

X 105
UX 386
GAM3 21
X-MEN FOREVER #1-6
X 106
...
UX 389
C2 88
X-MEN: SEARCH FOR CYCLOPS #1-on...
X 109

...and so on.  This is of particular use to Jean Grey's chronology, 
because she is a feature character in both the X-Men Forever and 
Search for Cyclops miniseries.

Toad's metamorphosis, by the way, may yet be explained in the pages 
of X-Men Forever -- and if it isn't, then at least its placing now 
ensures that all his "Ray Park"-style appearances occur after the 
last of his "fat-butt" appearances (X-FOREVER#6), and the 
metamorphosis could have occured off-panel between the issues.

Hope all of that helps when it's time to place those miniseries into 
various chronologies...

	-Jeph!

I promise I'll go away now.  ;)

			*	*	*

Re: Ideas on placing X-Men: Search for Cyclops and X-Men Forever...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 10, 2001 at 14:54:46:
In Reply to: Ideas on placing X-Men: Search for Cyclops and X-Men 
Forever...
posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2001 at 19:30:08:

: In the Search for Cyclops miniseries, Cable and Phoenix venture 
off on their own to find out what happened to Scott Summers.  
Presumably, by issue #4 they will recover him and return home in 
triumph.  As this has not happened in the core books yet, presumably 
they haven't left yet -- every appearance to date for Cable and 
Phoenix needs to come before X:Search for Cyclops #1.

You'd have thought so, wouldn't you?

: However, at the X-Men's Christmas party in X 109, Cable and Jean 
are consipicuously absent.  As they were there for Moira's funeral 
in that month's UXM 389, and that was followed up on in Cable #88, 
presumably the miniseries starts up right there; between C2 88 and 
X 109.

You'd think so, wouldn't you?

But according to Cable writer Robert Weinberg, Cable and Jean missed 
the funeral of Moira because they were off in this series.  That's 
apparently why Cable is visiting Moira's grave alone at the beginning 
of C2 88.  (Though it doesn't explain why Storm is in Scotland.)  
This would place Search for Cyclops between C2 87 and 88 (as issue 
#87 was an earlier part of the crossover in which Moira died).

After much squinting at the flashback to Moira's funeral in UX 389, 
I am forced to concede that I cannot identify any figures there who 
are definitely Jean or Cable.  So, subject to the content of X:SFC 
allowing for the story continuing for this length of time, it would 
seem that the series picks up between X2 108 and UX 389-FB, during 
which period Jean and Cable are picked up by Ozymandias and whisked 
off to appear in the miniseries.  They remain absent through UX 389 
and X2 109 and return (presumably) with Cyclops at some point yet to 
be published.

After their return, Jean makes no further appearances, and Cable 
appears in C2 88.  It may also be of some significance that in 
Bishop & Gambit Alpha, Bishop's opening dream sequence includes him 
killing Cyclops.  When this is later explained to be a vision of 
the future, he expresses no surprise at Cyclops' presence, which 
would imply that the story must take place after Cyclops' return, 
even though he isn't among the X-Men seen at the mansion.  (In 
fairness, only about half the team appear.)

Weinberg, incidentally, seemed rather annoyed that I hadn't got the 
apparently obvious fact that Cable and Jean weren't at the funeral.  
God only knows how I was meant to work it out from the published 
material, but this is apparently the chronology.

: The "X-Men Forever" series, on the other hand, while very well-
researched in the past timelines of our heroes, runs into some very 
bad continuity problems in terms of fitting in with its contemporary 
books.

Why, thank you.  I'm one of the people who doublechecked the 
continuity.  The reason it doesn't match up with the present day 
continuity is because the series outline was written back in 
December 1999, and the plot of issue #1 was written in something 
like February or March 2000.  At that point, there was a different 
ending in mind for Kelly's run for president.

Typically, nobody bothered to let the X-Men Forever team know so 
that they could make changes.  It doesn't really matter (for story 
purposes) what Kelly's saying in his speech in issue #1.  But, for 
continuity purposes, it causes problems.

: Problems include rationalizing Mystique's change from subtle 
manipulatrix to genocidal madwoman, Toad's change from fatt-butt 
Toynbee into Ray Park, and Kelly's pro-mutant speech in X-FOREVER#1.

The pro-mutant speech is a curio.  As you point out, Kelly never 
makes any actual anti-mutant speeches during his campaign, so far 
as we're shown.  His speeches are to the effect that it's a very 
serious issue and something should be done, but he never specifies 
what.  Prior to this storyline, Kelly had been established as a 
mutant sympathiser (he was opposed to Operation: Zero Tolerance, 
for example).  In Dream's End, he's going to make a pro-mutant 
speech anyway.  Yet, for no comprehensible reason, everybody appears 
to interpret his presidential campaign speeches as anti-mutant.

The only logical explanation I can think of is that Kelly is playing 
to the lowest common denominator by making content-neutral speeches 
designed to win over the anti-mutant vote without actually saying 
anything that pins him down, and he's getting embarrassed about it 
at the beginning of Dream's End.

The problem with X-Men Forever #1 is that the audience and the X-Men 
appear to regard Kelly's speech as pro-mutant.  This is consistent 
with his public image prior to the campaign storyline, but not with 
his image durng the campaign (or the X-Men's comments on him).  That 
would suggest that the story can be placed best at the outset of 
Kelly's campaign.

Unfortunately, it's impossible to find any place where the series 
fits happily.  But it's clearly got to be SOMEWHERE in the X2 104-106 
range.  That doesn't leave much time, given that Cecilia Reyes 
remains a drug-addicted fugitive in the Neo's base for that entire 
period.

We first learn of Kelly's campaign in X2 102.  That's right in the 
middle of the Neo storyline which runs through to X2 104 and UX 385.  
I'm tempted to suggest that X-Men Forever fits best between UX 385 
and X2 105, where Kelly hasn't yet been shown making anti-mutant 
speeches.  Admittedly, it's still hard to reconcile with Mystique's 
concern about him in X2 104.

The next time we see Kelly, in X2 105, Cable is in place as an 
undercover agent for the X-Men in his campaign.  Since he doesn't 
seem to be serving that role in X-Men Forever #1 (he's just standing 
around in full costume with the other X-Men), I'm tempted to suggest 
that it fits best there, as the only gap for the X-Men before they 
put an undercover agent in place.  If Cable was already in place in 
X-Men Forever #1, then you'd have thought he'd be doing the Jean 
Grey role in the X-Men's scheme.

As for Mystique's cover identity in this story...  she'd have had 
to have started way, way in advance of the series in order to get 
him into a role this prominent.  I can't really buy her inventing 
the identity from nowhere and getting him into that kind of position 
so quickly.  Admittedly, Mystique uses Valerie Cooper as a cover 
identity when speaking to Kelly at a fundraiser in X2 104, but she's 
probably just picking the appropriate identity for the conversation 
she wants to have.

If you place it in that gap, you end up with the following before 
and after appearances for the main characters:-

Phoenix (between C2 84 and UX 385)
Mystique (between X2 104-105)
Iceman (between Black Sun #5 and X2 108)
The Toad (between UX 379 and X2 106)
The Juggernaut (last in GENX 61; no further appearances)

: During or after the X-Men Forever series, SOMEthing traumatic 
happens to Mystique -- we'll have to watch the rest of that series 
for clues and inferences -- and by X 106 she's given up on 
manipulating Kelly, and is ready to kill him.

Put it this way: this series was not written with the idea of 
explaining away Claremont's ineptitudes, because it was written 
months and months in advance.  Nicieza hasn't been reading the 
Claremont X-Men run (he's said so on Usenet).  Don't expect any 
big explanation for this coming down the line.

			*	*	*

Things get difficult: Forever, Search for Cyclops, and now Gambit & 
Bishop (spoilers?)
Posted by Jeph! on January 10, 2001 at 19:29:55:
In Reply to: Re: Ideas on placing X-Men: Search for Cyclops and 
X-Men Forever...
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 10, 2001 at 14:54:46:

Spoilers in advance for this week's X-comics...

:: In Search for Cyclops, Cable and Phoenix venture off to find 
Scott Summers.  at the X-Men's Christmas party in X 109, Cable 
and Jean are consipicuously absent.  presumably the miniseries starts 
up right there; between C2 88 and X 109.

: according to Cable writer Robert Weinberg, Cable and Jean missed 
the funeral of Moira because they were off in this series.  That's 
apparently why Cable is visiting Moira's grave alone at the beginning 
of C2 88. This would place Search for Cyclops between C2 87 and 88.

: After much squinting at Moira's funeral in UX 389, I cannot 
identify definitely Jean or Cable.  So, subject to the content 
of X:SFC, it would seem that the series picks up between X2 108 
and UX 389-FB.  They remain absent through UX 389 and X2 109 and 
return (presumably) with Cyclops at some point yet to be published.

: After their return, Jean makes no further appearances, and Cable 
appears in C2 88.  It may also be of some significance that in Bishop 
& Gambit Alpha, Bishop expresses no surprise at Cyclops' presence, 
which would imply that the story must take place after Cyclops' 
return, even though he isn't seen at the mansion.

Sounds like it might work.  But here's some more details that came 
out in this week's X-Books that may make things more difficult.

Cable appears with Professor X in Uncanny X-Men Annual 2000.  Not 
too difficult; it's a self-contained story and can be placed anywhere 
before or after the SFC series.

The Beast appears in Cable #89, giving a lecture on molecular 
biology.  This implies that he hasn't left with the Destiny's 
Diary team yet, implying that C2 89 takes place near or just after 
X 109.  Meaning Cable's back from the SFC mission before Beast and 
the others leave -- bringing SFC back into sync with the core books.  
So where's Cyclops?

Confusing things even further, in Gambit & Bishop #1, it is revealed 
that Storm, Thunderbird, Rogue, and Psylocke left the mansion "a week 
ago".  (The ones in Alpha are but psionic projections ... which 
doesn't explain how Gambit went on a date with a psionic projection 
of Rogue in GB Alpha, but ANYway...)  The important thing here is 
that that team seemed to have left both Bishop and the Beast behind 
when they left (to join them later, presumably?).  So Beast's 
appearance in C2 89 *doesn't* necessarily have to take place near 
X 109 -- it could take place just before the Beast vanishes from 
the core books, whenever that may be.

HOWEVER, Storm *was* in C2 88.  So C2 88, at least, must take place 
near X 109, bringing SFC once again into sync with the core X-Books.  
So where's Cyclops?

Either way, I think my main concern at this point is, if Cable and 
Jean were successful in saving Cyclops in SFC, how come this isn't 
reflected in Cable's mood in C2 88 and 89?  You think he'd have 
remarked on it.

Of course, I'm working on two assumptions here: that the Destiny 
X-Men actually leave between X 109 and 110 (they could very well 
stick around for Lobdell's run), and that Cable and Jean actually 
return *successfully*, with Cyclops in tow.  I think that before 
we can place SFC -- never mind what Weinberg says -- we should wait 
to *see* these two events, plus the resurfacing of Cyclops in the 
*core* books.  Without this info we're just whistling in the dark.

:: The "X-Men Forever" series, on the other hand, runs into some 
continuity problems fitting in with its contemporary books.  Problems 
include rationalizing Mystique's change from subtle to genocidal 
and Kelly's pro-mutant speech in X-FOREVER#1.

: The pro-mutant speech is a curio.  Kelly never makes any actual 
anti-mutant speeches during his campaign.  Prior to this, Kelly 
had been established as a mutant sympathiser.  In Dream's End, 
he's going to make a pro-mutant speech anyway.  Yet everybody 
appears to interpret his speeches as anti-mutant.  The only 
explanation is that Kelly is playing to the lowest common 
denominator by making content-neutral speeches without actually 
saying anything that pins him down.

That, or Claremont thinks he's clever.  :)  But yes, I agree -- 
that's the thrust I get from Kelly's campaign all along.  

: The problem with X-Men Forever #1 is that the audience and the 
X-Men appear to regard Kelly's speech as pro-mutant.  This is 
consistent with his public image prior to the campaign, but not 
durng the campaign.  That would suggest that the story can be 
placed best at the outset of Kelly's campaign.

You mean he made a pro-mutant speech, didn't like his poll numbers, 
and switched to "vague-speak" for the rest of the campaign?  Sounds 
like something a real candidate would do.

: it's impossible to find any place where the series fits happily.  
But it's got to be SOMEWHERE in the X2 104-106 range.  We first 
learn of Kelly's campaign in X2 102. That's right in the middle 
of the Neo storyline which runs to UX 385.  I'm tempted to suggest 
that X-Men Forever fits best between UX 385 and X2 105, where Kelly 
hasn't yet been shown making anti-mutant speeches.  Admittedly, 
it's still hard to reconcile with Mystique's concern about him in 
X2 104.

Mystique's concern can be evidenced by the Diary of Destiny she is 
holding in that issue.  She wants to believe that Kelly means 
well -- indeed, by this point "Holt Adler" has most likely been 
on Kelly's staff for some time, as you say -- but Destiny's diary 
says that something bad will happen to the future, bacause of 
Kelly's campaign.  So Holt turns to trying to manipulate Kelly on 
issues of policy...

: The next time we see Kelly, in X2 105, Cable is an undercover 
agent in his campaign.  Since he doesn't seem to be serving that 
role in X-Men Forever #1, I'm tempted to suggest that it fits best 
there, as the only gap for the X-Men before they put an undercover 
agent in place.

Agreed.  Although even post-X 105, Cable's undercover job seems to 
allow him time to do things like a weekend in N'Awlins, in UX 386...

: As for Mystique's cover identity in this story...  she'd have had 
to have started way, way in advance of the series in order to get 
into a role this prominent.  I can't really buy her inventing the 
identity from nowhere and getting him into that kind of position 
so quickly.

Yeah, I agree.  And she can't be duping a real staff member, just 
because the name "Adler" suggests a phony identity.  I guess she's 
been on his staff a while, then, and her presence in Washington in 
GAM3 21 as somebody else (duping a real person, that time) is 
unrelated.  Maybe, post-FOREVER, "Holt" got fired for trying to 
manipulate Kelly's policy, and Mystique snuck back into the Capitol 
as this blond chick to get resources for the "crazy bitch" phase of 
her plan?  We may never know.

So.  X-Men Forever between UXM 385 and X 105 then, hmm?  Sounds 
all right to me -- and after all, why not let one of the people 
responsible for lining the series up with past continuity be 
responsible for fitting it into present continuity as well?  :)

I like the Cable-as-bodyguard observation -- it actually makes 
logical sense to place the series before X 105 because of that.  
The only problem I seem to have is that in X-Forever#1, Gambit 
says, in regards to Kelly's speech, "Kelly picked now to turn 
around?", or something to that effect -- I got the impression 
that the X-Men thought he was anti-mutant, and his speech had 
surprised them.  I'm not sure about that line, but I think the 
Cable clue outweighs its importance.

By the way, nobody's yet remarked how odd it is that Mystique 
hired Ruckus to kill Kelly at a speech that she knew from being 
on his staff would be pro-mutant, and that she then tipped the 
X-Men off about it.  I think that speaks to her mental state more 
than anything else in this series or the core books...

:: During or after the X-Men Forever series, SOMEthing happens to 
Mystique -- we'll have to watch the rest of that series for clues 
and inferences -- and by X 106 she's ready to kill him.

: this series was not written with the idea of explaining away 
Claremont's ineptitudes.  Nicieza hasn't been reading the Claremont 
X-Men run.  Don't expect any big explanation for this coming down 
the line.

No matter what the letters pages say?  ;)  ("Fabian decided to 
seize on [Toad's] change and explain it in grand scope", or the 
like, in reply to a continuity-picking fan letter.  Ah, assistant 
editors.)

What I really meant above was more along the lines of, let's read 
the series and try to find some straw to grasp at that we can use, 
in our own psychotic minds, to rationalize away her change in 
personality...  :)

Well, that's all I can think of.  I think that we need, mainly, 
to wait until these series are over to see the best place to put 
them -- but while I disagree on your X:SFC placing, I respectfully 
defer to your suggestions for X-MEN FOREVER.

	-Jeph!
my Gambit #21 review needs updating now...

			*	*	*

Re: Things get difficult: Forever, Search for Cyclops, and now 
Gambit & Bishop (spoilers?)
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 11, 2001 at 07:53:27:
In Reply to: Things get difficult: Forever, Search for Cyclops, 
and now Gambit & Bishop (spoilers?)
posted by Jeph! on January 10, 2001 at 19:29:55:

I'm writing this from work, so I don't have the references to hand.  
Bear in mind...

: The Beast appears in Cable #89, giving a lecture on molecular 
biology.  This implies that he hasn't left with the Destiny's Diary 
team yet, implying that C2 89 takes place near or just after X 109.

Not necessarily.  X2 109 only showed us a group of characters 
agreeing that they would go off on a mission of their own.  They 
form the intention to leave, but it's not clear whether they're 
leaving immediately, or indeed whether they've made any practical 
plans at all beyond just deciding to go.  I think we'll have to wait 
until at least next week's X-Men story in order to form a view of 
how quickly those X-Men left the team.  For all we know at this 
stage, they could still be in the X-Men for the next couple of 
issues, while making the practical arrangements for their departure 
(eg, where are they going to live?).

: Meaning Cable's back from the SFC mission before Beast and the 
others leave -- bringing SFC back into sync with the core books.  
So where's Cyclops?

I expect Cyclops to turn up shortly, since if it was running to 
schedule, Search for Cyclops would have finished by now.  If he's 
not there in the first issue of Lobdell's run, that may suggest 
that the miniseries does not have the expected ending of Cyclops 
returning to the team.  Maybe he's freed from Apocalypse but does 
the "Oh, I'm going to go and recover from my experiences in Alaska" 
routine again.  It's still a possibility.

: Confusing things even further, in Gambit & Bishop #1, it is 
revealed that Storm, Thunderbird, Rogue, and Psylocke left the 
mansion "a week ago".  (The ones in Alpha are but psionic 
projections ... which doesn't explain how Gambit went on a date 
with a psionic projection of Rogue in GB Alpha, but ANYway...)

I haven't had a chance to read the issue yet, but from the sound 
of it, I'd say Rogue's appearance in G&B Alpha conclusively disproves 
that she left the mansion a week ago, leaving us free to cast that 
timeframe statement by the wayside.

: Either way, I think my main concern at this point is, if Cable 
and Jean were successful in saving Cyclops in SFC, how come this 
isn't reflected in Cable's mood in C2 88 and 89?  You think he'd 
have remarked on it.

You would indeed, which is one of the points I made in response to 
Weinberg.  I suppose there's always an outside possibility that the 
series ends with them believing they've failed, but setting up 
Cyclops's actual return in the core books a couple of months down 
the line.  But even then, given the subject matter of Cable #88, 
you'd have thought Cable would have raised Cyclops' fate one way or 
the other.

: You mean he made a pro-mutant speech, didn't like his poll numbers, 
and switched to "vague-speak" for the rest of the campaign?  Sounds 
like something a real candidate would do.

It's the closest I can come to rationalising this bizarre change of 
character.  Every other character appears to interpret Kelly's 
speeches as inflammatory, even though some of them concede that 
he never comes out and says it outright.  I can only conclude that 
either Kelly is deliberately trying to pander to the voters while 
avoiding any commitments he doesn't want to keep, or he's the worst 
communicator in the history of politics.

: Mystique's concern can be evidenced by the Diary of Destiny she 
is holding in that issue.  She wants to believe that Kelly means 
well -- indeed, by this point "Holt Adler" has most likely been on 
Kelly's staff for some time, as you say -- but Destiny's diary says 
that something bad will happen to the future, bacause of Kelly's 
campaign.  So Holt turns to trying to manipulate Kelly on issues of 
policy...

This all seems reasonable enough.

: Agreed.  Although even post-X 105, Cable's undercover job seems 
to allow him time to do things like a weekend in N'Awlins, in UX 
386...

Well, it was never very clearly established what Cable's undercover 
job WAS.  If he was only there in some kind of security guard role, 
I can easily buy him getting a couple of days off a week.

: Yeah, I agree.  And she can't be duping a real staff member, just 
because the name "Adler" suggests a phony identity.

Good point.  I hadn't taken that into account.

: I guess she's been on his staff a while, then, and her presence 
in Washington in GAM3 21 as somebody else (duping a real person, 
that time) is unrelated.

Well, it gives her a convenient reason to be in Washington if 
she's working in politics at that point.  But Mystique's been 
based out of Washington for years now, dating back at least to 
her time with Freedom Force.

: Maybe, post-FOREVER, "Holt" got fired for trying to manipulate 
Kelly's policy, and Mystique snuck back into the Capitol as this 
blond chick to get resources for the "crazy bitch" phase of her 
plan?  We may never know.

Or, perhaps, when Mystique radically changed her plans, she just 
abandoned the Holt Adler identity and stopped showing up for work.

: So.  X-Men Forever between UXM 385 and X 105 then, hmm?  Sounds 
all right to me -- and after all, why not let one of the people 
responsible for lining the series up with past continuity be 
responsible for fitting it into present continuity as well?  :)

And if you find serious continuity errors in the past stuff, I 
apologise in advance.  And then I blame Fabian.

But really, nobody quite knows when this series is meant to be 
happening.  I think they've opted for "before X-Men #106" because 
that's when Mystique re-formed the Brotherhood and stopped being 
a solo act.  Nicieza described it as taking place in continuity 
limbo, the creators on the mainstream X-Men books have obviously 
made little attempt to accommodate it, and I don't think Marvel 
have any real clue other than that it was a little while ago.

: I like the Cable-as-bodyguard observation -- it actually makes 
logical sense to place the series before X 105 because of that.  
The only problem I seem to have is that in X-Forever#1, Gambit 
says, in regards to Kelly's speech, "Kelly picked now to turn 
around?", or something to that effect -- I got the impression that 
the X-Men thought he was anti-mutant, and his speech had surprised 
them.

I can't really buy into the X-Men being surprised at Kelly making 
a pro-tolerance speech given that they know he was opposed to 
Operation: Zero Tolerance and the like.  I can just about buy them 
being surprised that he'd make that speech so openly.

: By the way, nobody's yet remarked how odd it is that Mystique 
hired Ruckus to kill Kelly at a speech that she knew from being 
on his staff would be pro-mutant, and that she then tipped the 
X-Men off about it.  I think that speaks to her mental state more 
than anything else in this series or the core books...

I'd say so.

: No matter what the letters pages say?  ;)  ("Fabian decided to 
seize on [Toad's] change and explain it in grand scope", or the 
like, in reply to a continuity-picking fan letter.  Ah, assistant 
editors.)

Ah, the Toad...  Put it this way.  When I reviewed the story outline, 
there was nothing about the Toad's change of appeance in it.  Since 
the film wasn't out at that point, this was hardly surprising.  I 
understand there's been some rewriting of the later issues in the 
series to try to account for some of the continuity changes since 
the book was originally written, and an explanation of the Toad 
might well make it in there.  They might have a stab at explaining 
Mystique away as well.  But these are points which weren't in 
Fabian's mind when he wrote the original story, for the simple 
reason that there was no possible way he could have known about 
them.

			*	*	*

SFC, Gambit&amp;Bishop: blame Lobdell!! (no, wait, blame Claremont...)
Posted by Jeph! on January 11, 2001 at 14:25:27:
In Reply to: Re: Things get difficult: Forever, Search for Cyclops, 
and now Gambit & Bishop (spoilers?)
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 11, 2001 at 07:53:27:

Re: the Destiny's Diary X-team

: I think we'll have to wait until at least next week's X-Men story 
in order to form a view of how quickly those X-Men left the team.  
For all we know at this stage, they could still be in the X-Men for 
the next couple of issues, while making the practical arrangements 
for their departure (eg, where are they going to live?).

Agreed -- that was my point.  We need to wait and see before trying 
to find a spot for SFC.  This is a series that has no set start point, 
but most likley will *definitely* have a set end point (ie, something 
reflected in the core books, like, say, the inevitable return of 
Cyclops).  I think we need to actually reach that end point before 
we place the series.

: I expect Cyclops to turn up shortly, since if it was running to 
schedule, Search for Cyclops would have finished by now.

And for some inexplicable reason, it ain't.  Two months late for 
Raney?  He must have had a stroke.

:If he's not there in the first issue of Lobdell's run, that may 
suggest that he does the "Oh, I'm going to go and recover from my 
experiences in Alaska" routine again.

Could be.  Again, wait and see.

:: in Gambit & Bishop #1, it is revealed that Storm, Thunderbird, 
Rogue, and Psylocke left the mansion "a week ago".  (The ones in 
Alpha are but psionic projections ... which doesn't explain how 
Gambit went on a date with a psionic projection of Rogue in GB Alpha, 
but ANYway...)

: I haven't had a chance to read the issue yet, but from the sound 
of it, I'd say Rogue's appearance in G&B Alpha conclusively disproves 
that she left the mansion a week ago.

Nope.  No time elapses between GB Alpha and #1, There's an actual 
flashback showing Storm, Thunderbird, Psylocke and Rogue walking 
away from the mansion, Bishop looking out from the window and feeling 
"wrong" about leaving.  The inference in the dialogue is that Gambit 
and Bishop (and the rest of the X-Men in the mansion, apparently) 
have been under the psionic control of the series' mystery villain 
since that time.  Once Gambit actually realizes that the X-women 
shouldn't be there, the hold is broken and they vanish.  I guess 
this means that Gambit went out on the town by himself that night, 
psionically brainwashed and talking to himself.  ("I'll have the 
steak, and my lady friend here will have the fish."  "Excuse me, 
sir?")  Basically, what it really means is that Lobdell didn't know 
about the Destiny team's leaving when he wrote GB Alpha.

Re: X-Men Forever #1:

: I can't really buy into the X-Men being surprised at Kelly making 
a pro-tolerance speech given that they know he was opposed to 
Operation: Zero Tolerance and the like.  I can just about buy them 
being surprised that he'd make that speech so openly.

That ..... miiight work.  Err. (Brain...rationalizing!  Pain...too...
great!)

Continuity points adide, my main problem with Gambit&Bishop #1 is 
that throughout, Gambit keeps calling Bishop "chere".  Point one, 
that's his nickname for Rogue.  Point two, the translation of "chere", 
short for "cherie" is, essentially, "beautiful girl".  This just 
reminds me of the many reasons why Lobdell's scripting style got 
on my nerves -- anyone remember how Gambit kept consistently 
calling Bishop "hommes", which means "men"?  Lobdell may have good 
plotting skills and may write with heart, but he sorely needs to 
take a French class.

ANYway.  That's about all I can think of.

	-Jeph!

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Re: SFC, Gambit&amp;Bishop: blame Lobdell!! (no, wait, blame 
Claremont...)
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 12, 2001 at 04:15:17:
In Reply to: SFC, Gambit&Bishop: blame Lobdell!! (no, wait, blame 
Claremont...)
posted by Jeph! on January 11, 2001 at 14:25:27:

: I guess this means that Gambit went out on the town by himself 
that night, psionically brainwashed and talking to himself.  ("I'll 
have the steak, and my lady friend here will have the fish."  
"Excuse me, sir?")

Having now read the issue, I have to agree - the idea seems to be 
that Rogue was an illusion to keep Gambit occupied.  In fairness, 
we don't know where they went.  Maybe "she" just took him for a walk 
in the countryside.

: Continuity points adide, my main problem with Gambit&Bishop #1 is 
that throughout, Gambit keeps calling Bishop "chere".  Point one, 
that's his nickname for Rogue.  Point two, the translation of "chere", 
short for "cherie" is, essentially, "beautiful girl".  

"Cher" means "dear", if I remember my French correctly.  Unfortunately, 
Lobdell has Gambit addressing male characters in the feminine form of 
the word.  "Cher" would at least be grammatically correct but would 
imply a homosexual undertone.

This just reminds me of the many reasons why Lobdell's scripting 
style got on my nerves -- anyone remember how Gambit kept consistently 
calling Bishop "hommes", which means "men"?

There's an awful Peregrine story he did for Marvel Comics Presents in 
which every line had obviously been dragged through a French English 
dictionary.  (All the verbs were in the infinitive tense, which was 
something of a giveaway.)

