	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Oneg possible addition
2. X-Men Origins, etc.
3. SI: Annihilation of the House of Macaroons [NAv #45 SPOILERS
4. Secret Invasion: Inhumans
5. Peter Parker: Spider-Man '01
6. Wolverine: First Class 5-FB
7. Dr. Doom in BFF:RR 1-3
8. References in Text stories.
9. Ms. Marvel vol 1
10. Mighty Avengers #19 vs. SI:Who Do You Trust?/4

	Issue Analysis Forum
11. Ghost Rider Annual #2
12. Wolverine: Killing Made Simple #1
13. Wolverine Annual #2
14. Daredevil 107-110
15. Ghost Rider v6 26-27
16. the TWELVE 7
17. the TWELVE 6
18. MARVEL APES #3
19. Franklin Richards: Summer Smackdown!
20. Punisher War Journal v2 18-23
21. X-MEN ORIGINS: JEAN GREY #1
22. AGE OF THE SENTRY #1
23. October call for analyses
24. X-Men: Original Sin 1
25. Punisher MAX 56-60
26. Wolverine: Origins 26-28
27. Uncanny Origins 8 & misc
28. X-Men: Legacy 217
29. Thor: The Truth of History
30. Amazing Spider-Man Family #1
31. HULK MONSTER-SIZE SPECIAL #1
32. AGE OF THE SENTRY #2 (w/ Carol Danvers and Silver Age)





Thread 1

Subject: Oneg possible addition

Oct 06, 2008 6:23 pm 
By Enda80

ONEG [CELESTIAL]
WI? 23/2
A 339-FB
T 300-FB
E 9
E 10
T 300
FF@ 23
HR:R 4

http://www.buzzcomics.net/showpost.php? ... ostcount=8
http://membres.lycos.fr/canard1999/oct05/def109-3.jpg

This seems to show Odin supplicating before Oneg the Prober. Did this appear in Thor I#300?

(Curiously, another panel seems to show Odin creating the Valkyries out of thin air. Has this gotten referenced elsewhere?)

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Oct 06, 2008 7:12 pm 
By jephyork
Director

If you're suggesting a "possible addition" I don't see it.

-Jeph!

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Oct 06, 2008 11:37 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
(Curiously, another panel seems to show Odin creating the Valkyries out of thin air. Has this gotten referenced elsewhere?)
<<<

Enda, we've been over and over and over this as you well know since you're usually the one that brings it up! There's an oblique reference in DEF 109 that could refer to that scene, but is vague enough that it doesn't have to. That's it.

			*	*	*

Thread 2

Subject: X-Men Origins, etc.

Oct 03, 2008 2:24 pm 
By gregorynbaker

Hello all, 

I know you have begun trying to fit X-Men: First Class, et al., into continuity. I want to address some of the X-Men origin stories, specifically what is in and and what is out.

The original "origins" ran as backups in X-Men vol. 1 #38-57. As Paul O'Brien has repeatedly indicated, they are not that great.

When X-Men: Children of the Atom came out, I was ready to embrace it as a retcon, but it was rejected by MCP. The publication of X-Men Origins: Beast confirms the 1960s versions is at least the correct template. 

However, I was unimpressed by Angel: Revelations, which seemed too far afield from the original story in X-Men vol. 1 #54. It may conflict with X-Terminators #1, which I believe said Warren attended Phillips Exeter. The Worthingtons also seemed pretty WASPy as well, which clashed with the story Aguirre-Sacasa was trying to tell, which was very critical of the Catholic Church. (Don't get me started on trying to figure out when/if/how the Worthingtons know Warren is a mutant in XMFC)

In the last few months we have had Angel: Revelations, X-Men Origin: Colossus, X-Men Origins: Beast, X-Men Origins: Jean Grey, and X-Men: Magneto Testament. Excusing Magneto (which is incomplete but had an excellent first issue), where do these rank in terms of canonicity? What about the Uncanny Origins series? Given the fuller treatment of those stories more recently (X-Men Origins: Beast, Ororo: Before the Storm, and Storm vol. 2 spring to mind), are those still in continuity?

I know this is done on a case to case basis, sometimes panel to panel, but I was wondering what your thoughts were on these issues.

Thanks,
Gregory N. Baker

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Oct 03, 2008 4:39 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Like you say, it's very much case-by-case, and I haven't been buying the X:O one-shots to comment on those.

However, Angel: Revelations isn't a Marvel Comics book, but a Marvel Knights book. It's my opinion, based on certain statements made by Quesada and others at the time of the MK relaunch (the one that kicked Daredevil and a few other books back to standard Marvel Comics branding), that any MK book started after that point should be treated under, as someone else once put it, "Bizarro rules" (normally, a comic is presumed in-continuity unless (a) Marvel says it's not or (b) it can't fit. I think nuMK books should need a specific "this is in" statement to contradict the blanket "they're not" - as Magneto: Testament #1, also an MK book, does have).

			*	*	*

Oct 08, 2008 9:55 am 
By cweed4

So does this mean that all MK books since the year 200X (I'm not sure when all of this stuff happened that you are talking about?) are assumed to be out-of-continuity unless they are specifically referenced in a MU book? For example, is SM: With Great Power not canon simply because of the MK label until something from that story is mentioned in a current Spidey story?

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Oct 08, 2008 1:21 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

That's not the way I've been seeing it.(I don't remember Quesda's exact quote, but I took it to mean the these books wouldn't be in current continuity, as opposed to continuity at all) Since they've reformatted the Marvel Knights line into a line of prestige miniseries', we've seen two types of stories. Stories set in the past and stories set in the future. Obviously, Silver Surfer: Requiem has no where to go, it's in the future. The same for Spider-Man: Reign. But out of the stories set in the past, like Fury: Peacemaker, Spider-Man: With Great Power..., Ghost Rider: Trail of Tears, there is a place for them to go and they can fit. Some a little more comfortable than others, but they can.

-Daron Jensen

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Oct 08, 2008 2:53 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Haven't we been here before?  ("Marvel Knights books" [Archive 68]; "Night Raven slip-up" [Thread ended Feb 2008])

New Marvel Knights Press Release, http://tinyurl.com/4rcz26 wrote:
 Again, Marvel stressed, the moves of the ongoing series are a redefining of the imprint, which will remain a viable location for projects. Rather than ongoings, however, following the changes, Marvel Knights will be the home for limited series by high profile creative teams that fall outside of the realm of the Marvel Universe.

That's a clear and unambiguous statement. Joe Q himself - at http://classic.newsarama.com/JoeFridays ... ays34.html - was less unambiguous, but still used phrases like "just a step to the right or left of continuity", and "What Im basically saying is the readers of the new upcoming Marvel Knights books can read them for just the story without having to add on the pressure of how this fits into a larger tapestry. I know the writers and artist wont be creating with those restraints." - in other words, the stories weren't being written with an aim of fitting into continuity.

Now, Magneto: Testament has an afterword to specifically say "that doesn't apply here - where we're making changes, it's because the existing comics themselves contradict each other". The fact that they felt the need to insert such an afterword says to me that the broader point is still valid except where the exception is explicitly noted.

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Thread 3

Subject: SI: Annihilation of the House of Macaroons [NAv #45 SPOILERS

Sep 25, 2008 3:19 am 
By Somebody
Director

Oh, THIS should give Paul B paroxysms . It's the "Skrulls in HoM" issue...

Veranke (still as Jessica Drew) "wakes up" immediately after the reality warp in a HoM-SHIELD uniform on board the Helicarrier. A group including Rogue, Nightcrawler, Mystique, Toad and Quicksilver notice she's disconcerted, and enquire after her well-being, telling her to fetch Logan while she's outside. She excuses herself and runs off to the toilet to vomit. (There's a background bit about how "Latveria has no ambassador" - is that a reference to FF:HoM?)

Elsewhere, "Hank Pym" (named as Criti Noll) has flashbacks to the real world and starts running into a crowd. Veranke flies down, picks him up and forces him to focus on who he really is, and they talk for a bit. She tells him to stay behind, but she (having seen Wolverine 'wake up' between the first scene and going after "Pym") is going to get a ride to Genosha to blow Wanda's brains out.

Jump cut to the Big Final Battle. She sneaks off with a gun, sees the Wanda/Hawkeye scene, and hesitates, leading to No More Mutants.

Now, (this is the bit Paul B won't like), the Skrulls meet in what's strongly implied to be shortly afterward - long enough for some version of the 198 Files list to be compiled, but no longer. Veranke's crying as they discuss it, and Skrullektra thinks it's a hangover from HoM (hence the no longer). Actually, it's because Annihilation Day+15 has come and gone, and the Skrulls' worlds have been decimated.

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Sep 25, 2008 7:14 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yes, as I turned the page and saw the reference to Annihilation, I uttered "uh-oh, I better check this."

I currently have M-Day as June 29 and Annihilation +15 as the followimg November 1. At least the events are in the right order!

I'm going to have to move everything around anyway, so why not Annihilation? We'll see if moving ANNIHILATION: PROLOGUE 1 (38-42), which happens on Annihilation + 15, closer to M-Day has any unpalatable ramifications.

Question: does the scene in NEW AVENGERS 45 fit within A:PROLOGUE 1 (38-42) or just before or after?

Paul B.

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Sep 25, 2008 9:09 am 
By Somebody
Director

If we're not bothering to spoiler-tag then.... there was actually one other thing I hesitated to bring up, but... Veranke woke up immediately after the reality wave/burn to white ended (technically, I suppose, any fake persona Wanda tried to give her just didn't take, unlike "Pym" who had Wolverine-style problems before waking up). As I recall, there were a lot of compromises made in the timeline originally so no-one, not even Wolverine, woke up until quite some time had passed, to avoid writing issues off as false flashbacks. The presentation in this issue might not make that untenable, but it holes it near the waterline.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
I currently have M-Day as June 29 and Annihilation +15 as the followimg November 1. At least the events are in the right order!
<<<

Wasn't M-Day dated as the 2nd of November in Carey's X-Men, ooc? [And HoM could occur during Annihilation on the basis of NA 45 - Veranke just has to get word of the skrull massacre afterward.]


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
I'm going to have to move everything around anyway, so why not Annihilation? We'll see if moving ANNIHILATION: PROLOGUE 1 (38-42), which happens on Annihilation + 15, closer to M-Day has any unpalatable ramifications.
<<<

I believe the entire basis for compressing ANN on your calendar to 50% of the Annihilation Day lengths was a cameo by Quasar in She-Hulk v2 #7, which a later issue referenced as being near the ASM "Road to Civil War" issues.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Question: does the scene in NEW AVENGERS 45 fit within A:PROLOGUE 1 (38-42) or just before or after?
<<<

Before. We see the aftermath of presumably the same attack (which would make it on the Verge System) in ANN:PRO, but not any actual attacks.

			*	*	*

Sep 25, 2008 12:13 pm 
By cweed4

My interpretation was that Veranke, "Pym", and Wolverine all woke up immediately after the burn and that no time passed. All 3 of them had similar reactions of freaking out, Veranke just pulled it together before "Pym" did.

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Sep 25, 2008 4:15 pm 
By Somebody
Director

cweed4 wrote:
>>>
All 3 of them had similar reactions of freaking out, Veranke just pulled it together before "Pym" did.
<<<

Veranke was never HoM-Jessica in mind. She was one place one minute, and on the HoM Helicarrier the next, and freaked out at the change to the world around her. Whereas "Pym" initially *was* HoM-Pym, and then started to flashback to the real MU, freaked out at the identity confusion, and Veranke came in just as this was happening and sorted him out.

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Sep 25, 2008 10:06 pm 
By cweed4

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Veranke was never HoM-Jessica in mind. She was one place one minute, and on the HoM Helicarrier the next, and freaked out at the change to the world around her.
<<<

Agreed.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Whereas "Pym" initially *was* HoM-Pym, and then started to flashback to the real MU, freaked out at the identity confusion, and Veranke came in just as this was happening and sorted him out.
<<<

Unless you are talking about a few seconds or minutes I just don't see a difference. I consider the varying depictions as nothing more than the creative process from the writer/artist. 


Here are some troubling things:
-The recap page for NA 45 lists both Veranke and "Pym" as sleeper agents. My understanding was that sleeper agents didn't even realize they were skrulls. That doesn't jive with some of their pre-HoM appearances.
-Veranke goes skrully in NA 45. Isn't that supposed to invalidate her undetectability from that moment on? That would cover a lot of time, especially when the NA are in Japan killing Skrullektra.
-The corresponding scene for the "Pym"/Hank McCoy discussion in HoM takes place in issue 2 (pg 15-17). The Wolverine "awakening" occurs right after on pgs 19-22 and continues in the beginning of issue 3. Then the HoM SHIELD agents are shown tracking down Logan by pg 16. But, in NA 45 Veranke picks up "Pym" immediately following his talk w/ Hank and after she finds out Wolverine is "awake" too? (And she traveled from NY to Chicago to do it.) 


The biggest question I had from the issue was why Veranke didn't pull the trigger on Wanda?

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Sep 26, 2008 9:58 am 
By Somebody
Director

cweed4 wrote:
>>>
Here are some troubling things:
-The recap page for NA 45 lists both Veranke and "Pym" as sleeper agents. My understanding was that sleeper agents didn't even realize they were skrulls. That doesn't jive with some of their pre-HoM appearances.
<<<

This has been inconsistent all along - they've been having meetings in human form (and have another one at the end of the issue) where they obviously know they're skrulls. But, logically, they would need to not-know to pass telepathic inspection (according to some sources, their eyes are green when their own minds are in control; and whatever-colour-they-should-be when the mimicked minds are in control - but this doesn't seem to have been consistently applied either).


cweed4 wrote:
>>>
-Veranke goes skrully in NA 45. Isn't that supposed to invalidate her undetectability from that moment on? That would cover a lot of time, especially when the NA are in Japan killing Skrullektra.
<<<

I'm pretty sure that it invalidates it while she's in skrull form (she lost control while in the toilet), but it then reasserts itself when she returns to "Jessica" form.

At least she had a better excuse than the "Talisman" in X-Factor #34...


cweed4 wrote:
>>>
-The corresponding scene for the "Pym"/Hank McCoy discussion in HoM takes place in issue 2 (pg 15-17). The Wolverine "awakening" occurs right after on pgs 19-22 and continues in the beginning of issue 3. Then the HoM SHIELD agents are shown tracking down Logan by pg 16. But, in NA 45 Veranke picks up "Pym" immediately following his talk w/ Hank and after she finds out Wolverine is "awake" too? (And she traveled from NY to Chicago to do it.) 
<<<

Ah, Bendis...

Were teleporters common in the HoM world?


cweed4 wrote:
>>>
The biggest question I had from the issue was why Veranke didn't pull the trigger on Wanda?
<<<

I think we might be meant to assume that her "Jessica" personality is influencing her real personality. Although I don't see that the real Drew wouldn't have pulled the trigger under the circumstances...

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Sep 26, 2008 11:20 am 
By cweed4

Somebody wrote:
>>>
 Although I don't see that the real Drew wouldn't have pulled the trigger under the circumstances...
<<<

Good point. I hope she is not undone by a similar programming malfunction like Captain Skrarvel... 

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Sep 30, 2008 9:43 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

cweed4 wrote:
>>>
-The corresponding scene for the "Pym"/Hank McCoy discussion in HoM takes place in issue 2 (pg 15-17). The Wolverine "awakening" occurs right after on pgs 19-22 and continues in the beginning of issue 3. Then the HoM SHIELD agents are shown tracking down Logan by pg 16. But, in NA 45 Veranke picks up "Pym" immediately following his talk w/ Hank and after she finds out Wolverine is "awake" too? (And she traveled from NY to Chicago to do it.) 
<<<

To which Somebody replied:
>>>
Ah, Bendis...
<<<


I think a gap can be placed between pages 12 and 13 of A4 45 to allow for Logan to "awaken" in HOM 2-3. It took a little while for Skrullowjacket's visions to make him run.

Paul B.

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Oct 08, 2008 9:41 am 
By cweed4

The problem I see is that the "Pym"/Hank discussion occurs before Wolverine "awakens" in HoM. But, in NA 45, that discussion takes place after Veranke and SHIELD have already started looking for a rogue Wolverine.

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Oct 08, 2008 11:09 pm 
By jephyork
Director

That's nothing -- the re-used background dialogue from the scene when Veranke "wakes up" is from issue SIX.

-Jeph!

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Thread 4

Subject: Secret Invasion: Inhumans

Sep 15, 2008 7:15 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Is anyone else seeing a continuity problem with Secret Invasion: Inhumans?

Medusa's appearance in a panel of SECRET INVASION #6 suggests that SECINV:INH occurs at the same time as SECINV. SECINV:INH 1 starts out with Iron Man handing the dead Black Bolt Skrull over to Medusa. This scene must occur pretty shortly after the the identity of the Black Bolt Skrull is revealed to the Illuminati in NEW AVENGERS: ILLUMNATI v2 #5. Otherwise, you'd think that Medusa would be wondering whatever happened to her husband.

But could NA:I2 5 possibly occur just a day or so before the big invasion? Doesn't Xavier appear in NA:I2 5 before Messiah Complex? Doesn't Namor appear in NA:I2 5 before he hands himself over in ORDER2 6? Doesn't Reed appear in NA:I2 5 before he changes his costume (first seen in FF 554)? Doesn't Strange appear in A:I2 5 before he exiles himself in NA@ 2? Argh.

We could force a big gap in SECINV:INH 1 between, say, pages 13 and 14, but that would mean the Inhumans were waiting around for a while for the Skrulls to make a move. Also, I recall reading somewhere that the exposure of the Black Bolt Skrull forced the Skrulls' hand and led to the invasion launch.

Thoughts?

Paul B.

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Sep 15, 2008 10:22 am 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Is anyone else seeing a continuity problem with Secret Invasion: Inhumans?
<<<

Lots. And not just chronology problems - did the writer actually READ Silent War? He seems to be working off a one-paragraph summary. A badly written one-paragraph summary at that...


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Medusa's appearance in a panel of SECRET INVASION #6 suggests that SECINV:INH occurs at the same time as SECINV. SECINV:INH 1 starts out with Iron Man handing the dead Black Bolt Skrull over to Medusa. This scene must occur pretty shortly after the the identity of the Black Bolt Skrull is revealed to the Illuminati in NEW AVENGERS: ILLUMNATI v2 #5. Otherwise, you'd think that Medusa would be wondering whatever happened to her husband.
<<<

Here's the thing - at the end of Silent War, Medusa is completely in Maximus' thrall. COMPLETELY (Maximus planted a virus in her head some time before, which activated during Silent War and left her distant from Black Bolt, snogging Maximus and more, helping Maximus escape and forcing Luna to remove the controls on Max's power. Maximus then takes the chance after the Marine suicide-bombers destroy Attlan to do something similar to everyone else, except the immune Luna). So, no, I don't have a problem with a gap there where Medusa's not "wondering whatever happened to her husband" (and, hell, how long before IM got Skrullectra on the dissection table?).

The fact that she's suddenly so... independent... again in this mini is the glitch.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
But could NA:I2 5 possibly occur just a day or so before the big invasion? Doesn't Xavier appear in NA:I2 5 before Messiah Complex? Doesn't Namor appear in NA:I2 5 before he hands himself over in ORDER2 6? Doesn't Reed appear in NA:I2 5 before he changes his costume (first seen in FF 554)? Doesn't Strange appear in A:I2 5 before he exiles himself in NA@ 2? Argh.
<<<

Reed's wearing his Pacheco costume in Secret Invasion proper, remember. Namor & Strange, yep.

And there's certainly a lot of time between MCX and SI. If the X-Factor "five months" wasn't enough, X-Men: Manifest Destiny #1/1 (set before Iceman turns up in San Francisco, and consequently before SI:X) has Iceman saying it's been "months" since Mystique suckered him before she promptly does so again.

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Sep 15, 2008 8:53 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody, thanks for reminding me about the conclusion of Silent War. Actually, it's totally plausible that Maximus could have looked at Black Bolt's disappearance as a gift horse and influenced the Inhumans not to think about it too much. We can put a gap either between NA:I2 5 and SECINV:INH 1 or between pages of SECINV:INH 1. That depends on how long you figure Stark would have held onto the Black Bolt Skrull before handing it over to the Inhumans. Maybe Medusa's independence is just Maximus' grip loosening?

BTW, I'm in total agreement with you on what a f***ed up mess this is. That "five months" passage in X-Factor underscores the insanely different lengths of time that appear to pass between World War Hulk and Secret Invasion, depending on whose continuity you follow. X-Factor, She-Hulk, and Captain Marvel (Skrull) -- lots of time; Hercules and Ms. Marvel -- very little time. We have to end up ignoring references to lengthy time passages and insert gaps where they weren't intended to make everything work, more or less. There's still the matter of Stark doing nothing for a long time after Skrullektra was revealed and the Jessica Jonesian length of time for Siryn's pregnancy, etc., etc. Bah!

The MU has been so tightly woven lately, and pulling this off depends on editorial attention to chronological detail, which I think has been lacking for some time.

Paul B.

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Sep 15, 2008 10:02 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
We can put a gap either between NA:I2 5 and SECINV:INH 1 or between pages of SECINV:INH 1. That depends on how long you figure Stark would have held onto the Black Bolt Skrull before handing it over to the Inhumans.
<<<

After Illuminati #5, easily. There may be a smaller gap duing SI:INH 1 so that Stark can hand over "Black Bolt" before SI 1 and still have Medusa in a panel of SI 6 (I don't have the comics to hand right now to check the SI 6 panel), but the major gap should be before SI:INH 1.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Maybe Medusa's independence is just Maximus' grip loosening?
<<<

It's not a "grip" in the sense that Max is holding onto Medusa (& co) per se - the comparison Max used in Silent War was to a computer virus, that just erased ("cleared") bits of their minds hostile to Max away, leaving him room to write Maximus-friendly data.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Hercules and Ms. Marvel -- very little time.
<<<

Can't speak for Danvers' comic (don't read it), but after the initial arc and a spell at Athena's house, Athena, Herc & Cho do drive cross-USA, in a car (with a few hundred stops for Herc to Beer Up. And one for the She-Hulk guest-appearance). That's got to take a bit of time. (NB: There's also apparently a significant gap for Herc between "Sacred Invasion" and "Love and War", the arc starting with #121, that may be flashed back to later per Greg Pak @ http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17945. Just for the record.)


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
and the Jessica Jonesian length of time for Siryn's pregnancy, etc., etc. Bah!
<<<

That's one I'm not sure I agree with you on. Siryn's been pregnant for a bit by the time "Nicole" finds the pregnancy test. She apparently goes into labour "three weeks early" in XF3 38 (a second issue in a row solicited as not-by-Stroman, I may be able to start picking up the book again if that keeps up). Barring any major time jumps between now and then, she's thus in her late seventh or early eighth month as of the time jump. That gives at least two and a half months between XF3 13 and XF3 33, unless you want to push the conception earlier. And #13-24 is a *tight* series of stories time-wise. Then it's MCX, and then it's the fallout from MCX, which takes only days to reach the time jump of #33. So unless you're inserting a big gap between #24 and MCX , I'm struggling to see how you get two and a half months in there, let alone a Jessica Jones-esque 18-month pregnancy that's born 3 months premature.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
The MU has been so tightly woven lately, and pulling this off depends on editorial attention to chronological detail, which I think has been lacking for some time.
<<<

Well, the Secret War-before-Disassembled thing is really driving me nuts. What. The. HELL. Marvel? What the hell?

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Oct 09, 2008 10:13 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Okay, apparently Silent War took place entirely before WWH after all, per SI:I 3. It was realBB in Silent War, and SkrullBB in WWH.

[I would say that it adds %&*#s over Annihilation-related stuff with Ronan's words in the issue, and still doesn't make any sense in the context of Silent War, but...]

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Oct 11, 2008 2:08 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Okay, apparently Silent War took place entirely before WWH after all, per SI:I 3. It was realBB in Silent War, and SkrullBB in WWH.
<<<

Yup, sure seems that way. Fuss and bother -- more reorganizing.  

And WWH would have to occur long enough after Silent War for Attilan to be rebuilt. And what happened to Maximus' plan to move the Inhumans back to earth?

Interesting, too, that MARVEL: YOUR UNIVERSE SAGA chose to relate the events of World War Hulk before the events of Silent War.  

It seems that Marvel just keeps shifting chronologies around lately. I get the impression that it's just not that important to them, even though a grand plot on the scale of Secret Invasion requires careful consideration of the sequence of events.

Paul B.

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Thread 5

Subject: Peter Parker: Spider-Man '01

Oct 11, 2008 1:26 pm 
By Hazanko

Spiderfan.org places this annual between issues 2 and 3 of ASM, but the reviewer there refers to it as out-of-continuity. I haven't found it here in Spidey's chronology, the Checklist, or the list of non-canon stories. What is the MCP's opinion on this book?

I'm also curious about the Spidey story in S&L 2. I'm looking to bind my set of UTSM along with other continuity implants set in the high school era, so any placement/canon status info on these stories would be greatly appreciated.

			*	*	*

Oct 12, 2008 10:28 am 
By Russ Chappell
ADMINISTRATOR

Hazanko wrote:
>>>
Spiderfan.org places this annual between issues 2 and 3 of ASM, but the reviewer there refers to it as out-of-continuity.
<<<

When the reviewer refers to it as "out of continuity," I believe they mean that it's not in current continuity, not that it's not canon. I don't see any reason to believe that the story is not canon.


watching: auburn vs arkansas (again and again)

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Oct 12, 2008 11:27 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

PETER PARKER, SPIDER-MAN 2001 takes place on the first day of summer break," and I believe that fact places it between the spring story in ASM 5 and the summer story in ASM 6.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 14, 2008 11:45 pm 
By Hazanko

Thanks a lot guys.

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Thread 6

Subject: Wolverine: First Class 5-FB

Oct 19, 2008 12:28 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

W: FC 5 (2:5)-FB
Repeat of AF 33-FB, no new information. 
W: FC 5 (3:1)-FB
Repeat of Hulk 181, no new information. 
W: FC 5 (3:3-20:3)-FB
Wolverine is called in to deal with a terrorist threat and selects Snowbird, Aurora, and Shaman to work with him. They succeed in their mission but discover that Citadel, the villain, is also called Weapon Y and that his mutations and the experiments are possible results from the Canadian government. Citadel is arrested and James Hudson pulls some strings so Shaman can take a look at him. After he does, Shaman informs Wolverine that Citadel is dying from adamantium poisoning, and that Wolverines amnesia and bestial rages could be a result from adamantium poisoning. Wolverine storms off, upset. 
W: FC 5 (20:4-20:6)-FB
Repeat of GSX 1 (5-6)-FB, no new information. 

References: 
Thanks to the bookended repeated Flashbacks, we know that this occurs after H2 182 and before GSX 1. Since Aurora appears here, this has to occur after AF 9/2. Also, thanks to W: O 28, we know what Wolverine was doing immediately before his meeting with Professor X, and it wasnt storming away from Shaman. Therefore, theres a gap of time between W: FC 5 (20:3-FB) & W: FC 5 (20:4)-FB. 

In W: FC 5-FB Wolverine is being groomed to lead the New Alpha Flight, in M/CP 51-FB hes training people. Ive opted to put this before M/CP 51-FB

Some placement suggestions: 

WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT

UX 147-FB 
AF 52 (7:4-9:5)-FB
*AF 53-FB
W/C

H2 182 (3:5-17)
SM&W 2 (1-3)-FB 
AF 9/2
*W: FC 5-FB
M/CP 51-FB
W: O 28 (20)-FB
GSX 1 (1-5:3)
W: O 28 (21:1-21:4)-FB
GSX 1 (5:4-5:6)
W: O 28 (21:5-22)-FB
GSX 1 (6-13)
*AF 17-FB-BTS
AF 52 (4:2-4:5)-FB
GSX 3
GSX 1 (14-15:2)

(added page/panel ranges for AF 52-FB & added AF 53-FB & AF 17-FB-BTS)

SNOWBIRD/NARYA/"CORP. ANNE MCKENZIE THOMPSON" 
AF SPECIAL
AF 7/2
AF 8/2
*W: FC 5-FB
AF 11/2
AF 52-FB
AF 92-FB
{UX 120}


AURORA/JEANNE-MARIE BEAUBIER 
AF 9/2
AF 10/2
*W: FC 5-FB
AF 52-FB
AF 92-FB
{UX 120}


SHAMAN/DR. MICHAEL TWOYOUNGMEN 
AF SPECIAL
AF 5/2
AF 6/2
AF 7/2
AF 8/2
*W: FC 5-FB
AF 11/2
AF 52-FB
AF 92-FB
{UX 120}


GUARDIAN/JAMES MACDONALD HUDSON 
AF2 -1 (3)-FB
AF2 -1 (4:1)-FB
AF 2/2
AF 3/2
AF2 -1 (5:1)-FB
AF2 -1 (5:2 - 5:5)-FB
AF 2/2
AF 3/2
AF2 -1 (6 - 7)-FB
AF2 -1 (8:4 - 8:7)-FB
AF2 -1 (9:1 - 9:3)-FB
AF 34-FB
AF 33-FB
AF2 -1 (9:4 - 9:5)-FB
AF 33-FB
AF2 -1 (11)-FB
AF 3/2
AF2 -1 (12 - 21)-FB
W2 -1
AF 52 (3)-FB
AF 3/2
AF2 -1
AF2 1-FB
UX 147-FB
UX 140-FB
AF 52 (7:4-9:5)-FB
AF 53-FB
W/C
AF SPECIAL
AF 8/2
AF 10/2
**W2 144-FB (moved)
*W: FC 5-FB-BTS
AF 17 (1-3)-FB
AF 52 (4:2-4:5)-FB
AF 17 (4:5-6:4)-FB
{UX 109}

(W2 144-FB cant happen after AF 17-FB, which occurs after Wolverine has defected so Ive moved it up. Also added page/panel ranges for AF 52-FB & AF 17-FB)-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 19, 2008 7:40 am 
By loki

Hmm. Got to mention, since it will likely affect Wolverine and Guardian's timelines, but the battle between Hudson, Logan and Bedlam happened before any other recruits were added to Department H. The whole reason Hudlin experimented on Bedlam was because he couldn't locate other Canadian superhumans, which doesn't fit once you factor The Flight in. Yes, in the flashbacks Hudlin is seen in his later, much more streamlined costume, but stories written later have effectively retconned that to be an artistic error (you can put it down to Heather imagining what happened based on what she had learned, rather than it being a genuine flashback, if you squint a little); despite what the reader was shown, per discussions with editorial Hudlin was actually in the less streamlined Groundhog armor when he fought Bedlam.

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Subject: Dr. Doom in BFF:RR 1-3

Oct 20, 2008 2:35 am 
By wolframbane

Was Dr. Doom's appearance in Before the Fantastic Four: Reed Richards #1-3 before or after his time spent with the Monks of Doom. In BFF:RR 1-3, he is shown wearing the green robes and armored gloves that he wore after conquering Latveria in Books of Doom, but he is not wearing his metal face plate that he received while with the Monks, which was before he conuered Latveria.

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Subject: References in Text stories.

Oct 23, 2008 12:18 am 
By wolframbane

I was wondering what official MCP policy is regarding the canonicity of text stories,

1/ Do we include prose novels that directly reference the comics?
2/ Do we include prose novels directly referenced by the comics?
3/ Do we include text stories from the Golden Age comics that directly involve GA characters?
4/ Do we include text stories that have accompanying images (such as Monster Size Hulk #1/4)?
5/ Do we include text passages w/ images that are not necessarily stories (such as Marvel Saga)?

			*	*	*

Oct 23, 2008 8:20 am 
By Russ Chappell
ADMINISTRATOR

All of your questions can be answered thus:

Characters don't "appear" in text, so the practical answer would be "No to text, yes to images."

1) No

2) No

3) No

4) Yes for images only, assuming the story is canon

5) Yes for images only


watching: cloverfield

			*	*	*

Thread 9

Subject: Ms. Marvel vol 1

Oct 22, 2008 6:04 pm 
By Arthur
Director

Ms. Marvel Vol 1

* adjustment required 
** new entries 


**ADAMS, SAM
**MSM 22
**MSM 23

**ADAMSON, MAJOR DAVID (astronaut)
**MSM 3
**MSM 4

**ARACHT'YR (Patriarch of ``the People``)
**MSM 20
**MSM 21

BARNETT, DR. MIKE 
MSM 2
**MSM 3
MSM 4
. . .
MSM 13
**MSM 15
MSM 22

BINARY/CAROL SUSAN JANE DANVERS 
UX 182-FB 
*IM3 21-FB REMOVE Redundant; IM3 21 (6:2)-FB = MSM 19 (12:2-12:4)-FB 
*MSM 19 (11:6-12:8)-FB RELOCATED -- family dinner; Carol argues with her dad re college; graduates high school; 18 yrs  enlists in Air Force
*IM3 21 (6:3)-FB air force boot camp (added p:p reference)
MSM 9-FB
...
MSM 19-FB 
**MSM 7 (10:3-10:5)-FB at Kennedy Space Center training gym with Salia Petrie 
**MSM 6 (14:3-14:5)-FB 'security officer' - HOUSTON LUNAR RECEIVING LAB  talking with Dr Corbeau about Cavourite crystal
**MSM 5 (3:4)-FB youngest security chief' in NASA history
{M/SH 13} 'head of security' for missile base
. . .
CM 9
*CM10 should be CM 10 (2:1- 20:3/1)-FB pre-story...catchup between CM9 & CM 10.
CM 11 
. . .
CM 16
*CM 18 (1-19:5)
**MSM 2 (11:2-11:4)-FB Carol Danvers irradiated by exploding Magnitron; shows she was semi-conscious at the time
*CM 18 (20:1-20:6)
*CM 19-BTS suggested removal; her only involvement in CM 19 is that Rick Jones tells us where she is... Carol Danvers is safe in a Cape hospital
**MSM 2 (11:6-12:1)-FB Carol in hospital; back to work
A 90
CM 34
CM 35
**MSM 4 (8:2-8:5)-FB talks to Dr Kronton about Doomsday man 
CM 40
**MSM 2 (12:2-12:4, 12:7-13:1)-FB Carol leaves military, powers manifest
*MSM 1 (1-16:1)
**MSM 2 (1:1)-FB MsM whips Scorpion into empty glass chamber before throwing him against the acid vat beneath JJ Jameson (MsM 1 (16:2))
*MSM 1 (16:2-16:6) ...16:6 shows Jonah still held in trap
**MSM 2 (2:2)-FB Ms Marvel flying Jonah through the air
*MSM 1 (16:7-17:6) 16:7 shows Jonah on ground
MSM 2
. . .
MSM 8
**MSM 9 (2:3/2-3:1/1)-FB story intro
MSM 9
. . .
MSM 12
**MSM 13 (4:2/2 - 6:6)-FB what happened between MSM 12 and MSM 13
MSM 13
. . .
CA 237
A 181
*MSM 23 (1-7:5)
**MSM 23 (8:4)-FB how Ms Marvel escaped
*MSM 23 (7:6-17:6)
M/TU 76

BURKE, THERESA "TRACY" 
MSM 11
**MSM 14
**MSM 15
**MSM 17
**MSM 22
IM3 11

**BUTLER, COL. HARRY (USArmy) 
**MSM 20 
**MSM 21 (4:6-5:2)-FB-BTS commanded units that were attacked 
**MSM 21 

CAPTAIN MARVEL/CAPTAIN MAR-VELL/"DR. WALTER LAWSON" [KREE] 
CM 9
** CM 10 (2:1- 20:3/1)-FB pre-story...catchup between CM9 & CM 10.
CM 10
. . . 
CM 17
*CM 18 (1-19:5)
**MSM 2 (11:2-11:4)-FB shows Carol Danvers was semi-conscious when Captain Marvel tried to shield her from the radiation of the exploding magnitron
*CM 18 (20:1-20:6)
CM 19

**CENTURION/GEOFFREY BALLARD 
**MSM 9 
**MSM 14 
**MSM 17 
**MSM 18 

**CHRISTOPHER, ANNIE (Wundarr`s guardian) 
**M/TIO 4 
**M/TIO 8 
**M/TIO 9 
**MSM 15 

**COLE, SHARON (reporter) 
**MSM 17 
**MSM 20 
**MSM 21 

DANVERS, JOE
**MSM 19 (11:6-12:5)-FB Family dinner
*IM3 21-FB to be deleted; retell of material in MSM 19-FB (IM3 21 (6:2) = MsM 19 (12:2-12:4))
{MSM 13}
**MSM 14

DANVERS, JOE JR.
UX 182-FB
**MSM 19 (11:6-12:5)-FB Family dinner -

DANVERS, MARIE
**MSM 19 (11:6-12:5)-FB Family dinner 
MSM 13

DANVERS, STEVE
UX 182-FB
**MSM 19 (11:6-12:5)-FB Family dinner -

DEWOLFF, JEAN
M/TU 62
A 165-BTS
**MSM 15
IM 105

DOOMSDAY MAN
*SS 13 (6:5-7:2)-FB creation of Doomsday Man
**MSM 4 (8:2)-FB in Dr Krontons lab a few days after final testing
*SS 13 (7:3-9:2)-FB sealed in concrete bunker
SS 13

**ELLIOT, MR (AIM agent) 
**MSM 8 
**MSM 10 

FACELESS ONE 
LCHFH 9
**MSM 23

**GIANELLI, FRANK (reporter)
**MSM 6
**MSM 8
**MSM 14
**MSM 15
**MSM 17
**MSM 20
**MSM 22

**GOODWIN, ARCHIE 
**MSM 15 (1)

**HAEMON (of ``the People``)
**MSM 20
**MSM 21

HECATE 
MSM 11
MSM 12
**MSM 13 (4:2/2-6:6)-FB what happened between Ms Marvel and Hecate after the end of MSM 12 

**HELLFIRE (Elemental under Hecate`s control)
**MSM 11
**MSM 12
With resultant shift of current HELLFIRE to HELLFIRE II

**HYDRON II (Elemental under Hecate`s control)
**MSM 11
**MSM 12

JAMESON, J. JONAH 
M/TU 51
*MSM 1 (1-16:6) 16: 6 shows Jonah still held in trap
**MSM 2 (2:2)-FB Ms Marvel flying Jonah through the air
*MSM 1 (16:7-17:6) 16:7 shows Jonah on ground
MSM 3

**JONES, ARABELLA "BELLE" 
**MSM 15 
**MSM 16 (6:4)-BTS on the phone with Carol 
**MSM 17 
**MSM 22 

KLEIN, ABRAHAM 
IM 94
**MSM 5
IM 95

KRONTON, DR. 
*SS 13 (6:5-7:2)-FB creation of Doomsday Man
**MSM 4 (8:2-8:4)-FB in his lab a few days after final testing
*SS 13 (7:3-9:2)-FB sealing Doomsday Man in concrete bunker
SS 13

**MAGNUM (Elemental under Hecate`s control) 
**MSM 11 
**MSM 12 

NUMBER NINETEEN/ 
*CM10 should be CM 10 (2:1- 20:3/1)-FB pre-story...catchup between CM9 & CM 10.

NUMBER ONE II/ 
CM 8
*CM10 should be CM 10 (2:1- 20:3/1)-FB pre-story...catchup between CM9 & CM 10.

NUMBER TWENTY-THREE/ 
*CM10 should be CM 10 (2:1- 20:3/1)-FB pre-story...catchup between CM9 & CM 10.

**OLDDAN, MILES There`s an editor`s note implying that Miles Olddan (and his partner, ASP/Richard Harper) appeared in SUPTHR 10 - SUPTHR 15. Anyone with those issues care to substantiate?... Also a female character named Zephyr...
**MSM 11 
**MSM 12 

PARKER, MAY REILLY 
M/TU 52
*MSM 1 should be deleted; May is not in MSM 1
PPTSS 2

**PETRIE, DR. SALIA 
**MSM 7 (10:3-10:5)-FB astronaut training 
**MSM 3 
**MSM 4 
**MSM 11 
**MSM 12 
**MSM 23 

PHAE-DOR [KREE] 
CM 53
**MSM 18 
SS3 6

RONAN THE ACCUSER [KREE] 
CM 7
* should be CM 10 (2:1- 20:3/1)-FB pre-story...catchup between CM9 & CM 10.
CM 15-BTS

SCORPION II/MACDONALD GARGAN
ASM 146
*MSM 1 (1-16:1)
**MSM 2 (1:1)-FB Ms Marvel whips Scorpion into an empty glass chamber before throwing him against the acid vat beneath JJ Jameson (as seen in MsM 1 (16:2))
*MSM 1 (16:2-17:6) 
MSM 2

**TOWNSHEND, TABITHA
**MSM 9
**MSM 11-OP (5:8)...Carol asks an unseen Tabitha to get her a cup of coffee
**MSM 15

UNA [KREE] 
CM 9
**CM 10 (2:1- 20:3/1)-FB pre-story ...catchup between CM9 & CM 10.
CM 10

**WHITMORE, SGT. JIM
**MSM 20
**MSM 21

YON-ROGG [KREE] 
CM 9
* CM 10 should be CM 10 (2:1- 20:3/1)-FB pre-story...catchup between CM9 & CM 10.
CM 11

**ZEPHYR
**MSM 11
**MSM 12

			*	*	*

Oct 23, 2008 5:57 am 
By dimadick

Arthur wrote:
>>>
**ADAMSON, MAJOR DAVID (astronaut)
**MSM 3
**MSM 4
<<<

He is mentioned again in "Ms Marvel" vol. 1 #11, house-sitting for Salia Petrie while she was aboard the Skylab. Perhaps a behind-the-scenes appearance? 


Arthur wrote:
>>>
**CENTURION/GEOFFREY BALLARD 
**MSM 9 
**MSM 14 
**MSM 17 
**MSM 18
<<<

Ballard first appeared in "Black Goliath" #4 (August, 1976) as a government operative assigned to the security of a research project developed by Stark West, the Los Angeles division of Stark Industries. In that issue Ballard prevents Iron-Man/Anthony Edward Stark from revealing to Black Goliath/William Barrett Foster the contents of a box stolen from the project. The issue is already covered in the MCP in the chronologies of Stark and Foster but Centurion was missing an entry. 

By the way in "Miss Marvel" vol. 1 #9 (September, 1977), Ballard works for a mysterious "Council" under someone codenamed "Alpha". The issue was written by Chris Claremont and I have seen speculation this could be an appearance of the , also mysterious and unseen, "Council of the Chosen" introduced in "X-Men" vol. 1 #96-100 (December, 1975 - August, 1976). Later retconned in "Classic X-Men #6-7 (February - March, 1987) to be the Inner Circle of the Hellfire Club under the leadership of White King/Ned Buckman. 

In "Ms. Marvel" vol. 1 #17-18 (May - June, 1978) Ballard is working with Mystique/Raven Darkholme. Some indexes consider she could also have been "Alpha". Ballard calls both "Alpha" and Raven "old friend". Mystique herself receives orders from some mysterious "Lord". According to Claremont he was planning to introduce Shadow King/Amahl Farouk in Ms. Marvel #25 which was never published. There is speculation that Lord could be an early appearance by the Shadow King, who did not actualy made it to the press until "X-Men" vol. 1 #117 (January, 1979). See:http://members3.boardhost.com/RogueX/msg/1221746185.html

In "Marvel Super-Heroes" vol. 3 #11(October, 1978) appears a modified version of Ms. Marvel #25 where Mystique outmaneuvers her former employers in the "Council of the Chosen". Only no previous story had established Mystique working for the Hellfire Club, unless Claremont was subtly retconning her Ms. Marvel appearances. After the death of Buckman, their leader was Black King/Sebastian Shaw. The "Lord" as in "Lord Cardinal" of the Inner Circle? Sebastian made his first published appearance in "Uncanny X-Men" #129 (January, 1980). 


Arthur wrote:
>>>
DANVERS, JOE
**MSM 19 (11:6-12:5)-FB Family dinner
*IM3 21-FB to be deleted; retell of material in MSM 19-FB (IM3 21 (6:2) = MsM 19 (12:2-12:4))
{MSM 13}
**MSM 14
<<<

He might also have a behind-the-scenes appearance in "Avengers Annual" #10 (1981). The Danvers family is mentioned flying to San Francisco to get to the suddenly re-appearing Carol. Sabrina Morrell, the policewoman working her case, mentions Mrs. Danvers advising her to ask the Avengers about what happened to Carol. 


Arthur wrote:
>>>
DANVERS, MARIE
**MSM 19 (11:6-12:5)-FB Family dinner 
MSM 13
<<<

Marie also appears in "Ms. Marvel" vol. 1 #14 (February, 1978). She runs to tend to her husband after his encounter with Steeplejack/Maxwell Plumm and gets him to than Ms. Marvel for saving his life. Marie also has a behind-the-scenes appearance in "Avengers Annual" #10 (1981) due to speaking to Sabrina Morrell off panel. 


Arthur wrote:
>>>
**ELLIOT, MR (AIM agent) 
**MSM 8 
**MSM 10
<<<

He also appears in "Ms. Marvel" vol. 1 #9 (September, 1977). He is the one who gives the orders to kill the captured Carol Danvers. 


Arthur wrote:
>>>
**GIANELLI, FRANK (reporter)
**MSM 6
**MSM 8
**MSM 14
**MSM 15
**MSM 17
**MSM 20
**MSM 22
<<<

He also appears in "Ms. Marvel" vol. 1 #11 (November, 1977). He complains about not getting payed for a recent article. 


Arthur wrote:
>>>
HECATE 
MSM 11
MSM 12
**MSM 13 (4:2/2-6:6)-FB what happened between Ms Marvel and Hecate after the end of MSM 12
<<<

Good catch. However why is she the earliest Hecate to get a listing in the MCP? There is also Hecate, one of the Demon-Steeds serving Hellstorm. She first appeared in "Marvel Spotlight" vol. 1 #12 (October, 1973) with fellow Demon-Steeds Amon and Set. They went on to appear in "Ghost Rider" vol. 2 #3 (December, 1973), "Marvel Spotlight" vol. 1 #13-14 (January-March, 1974), "Defenders" vol. 1 #24-25 (June-July, 1975), "Defenders" vol. 1 #94 (April, 1981), "Defenders" vol. 1 #106 (April, 1982) and got killed in "Hellstorm:Prince of Lies" #9 (December, 1993). The issues are already included in the chronology of their master. 


Arthur wrote:
>>>
**HELLFIRE (Elemental under Hecate`s control)
**MSM 11
**MSM 12
With resultant shift of current HELLFIRE to HELLFIRE II
<<<

He first appeared in "Supernatural Thrillers" #7-15 (June, 1974 - October, 1975) as a foe of the Living Mummy/N'Kantu. The elementals teleport N'Kantu in #7 but all four are first seen on panel in #8. The issues are already listed in the MCP, included in the chronology of the Living Mummy but his foes are missing an entry. 


Arthur wrote:
>>>
**HYDRON II (Elemental under Hecate`s control)
**MSM 11
**MSM 12
<<<

Same case with Hellfire. 


Arthur wrote:
>>>
**MAGNUM (Elemental under Hecate`s control) 
**MSM 11 
**MSM 12
<<<

Same case as Hellfire and Hydron. 


Arthur wrote:
>>>
**OLDDAN, MILES There`s an editor`s note implying that Miles Olddan (and his partner, ASP/Richard Harper) appeared in SUPTHR 10 - SUPTHR 15. Anyone with those issues care to substantiate?... Also a female character named Zephyr...
**MSM 11 
**MSM 12
<<<

Actually, according to his profile in the Appendix, that would be "Supernatural Thrillers" #9-15 (October, 1974-October, 1975). However the profilers note that there is inconsistency concerning his name in the Living Mummy Series. He is called "Miles Olddan", "Paul Olddan", "Old Dan" and "Miles Oldden". The Asp appeared in the same issues. They are thieves who were after the Ruby Scarab but got caught in the battle between the Living Mummy and the Elementals. By the way thanks for remembering that Asp's real name was Richard Harper. The "Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe" #9 (September, 1983) gives his name as "Daniel Aspen", apparently creating a name for a character who already had one. 



Arthur wrote:
>>>
**ZEPHYR
**MSM 11
**MSM 12[/quote]
<<<

She is the fourth and last Elemental, having defected from their ranks in the Living Mummy series. Same case as Hellfire, Hydron and Magnum.

			*	*	*

Oct 23, 2008 8:53 pm 
By Arthur
Director

Yup.. I see the Marie Danvers and Mr. Eliot appearences I missed. 

But I'm still not seeing Frank Gianelli in MsM 11.

Uh... are your notes based on comics you've read, or on the Appendix's listings? Because the MCP only accepts stuff you can substantiate for yourself. Just checking because the appendix erroneously lists him in MsM 11 also.

			*	*	*

Oct 24, 2008 12:39 am 
By dimadick

A bit of both typically. However I am unfamiliar with the staff of "Woman" magazine and relied on the Appendix to tell who is who.

			*	*	*

Thread 10

Subject: Mighty Avengers #19 vs. SI:Who Do You Trust?/4

Oct 18, 2008 12:10 am 
By Somebody
Director

The whole sequence in question from MA 19 can be seen here: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page ... disp=table

Does this seem, uh, completely irreconcilable with SI:WDYT/4 (the Zeb Wells story which ALSO shows Noh-Varr's control over the Cube being broken by the skrull virus, but also includes a confrontation with a skrull, NV being present when it all goes to hell rather than in a separate room and nothing about Skrull-Vell) to anyone else ?

			*	*	*

Oct 19, 2008 1:49 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

First, there's got to be a big gap between panels 5 and 6 of page 4 of MA 19. Noh-Varr must see the TV coverage of Mar-Vell's return right after Civil War and he immediately thinks about what this news means for him. His thoughts at this point cannot be interrupted by the Skrull virus, since that doesn't happen until Secret Invasion. There's a lot of time between Civil War and Secret Invasion, so the way Bendis wrote this series of pages in MA 19 makes no sense without the gap. Yikes, Bendis...

That gap might help reconcile Noh-Varr's conflicting situations once the Skrull virus hits in SECINV:WDYT 1/4 and MA 19. I have a solution: treat MA 19 (1-4:5) as a flashback (given the gap), then place MA 19 (4:6-5) right after SECINV:WDYT 1/4. 

SECRET INVASION: WHO DO YOU TRUST #1/4
Noh-Varr forces the warden of the Cube to report to Hill that everything is fine. Noh-Varr surveys the effect his Omniwave has on the prisoners, but then the wave goes down and he encounters a Skrull who kills the warden. The Skrull tells him that his race will liberate the planet before Noh-Varr kills him.
MIGHTY AVENGERS #19 (4:6-5)
As the virus detection alarm continues, Noh-Varr observes another riot scene in the Cube and decides its time to go. (The "what's this now?" thought is not one of surprise but one of "crap, more chaos...gimme a break.")

Does that work for you, Somebody?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 27, 2008 9:42 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Depends if by that you mean "Do you see a better alternative?", to which the answer is "no."

Geographically, it's hopelessly screwed (he flew up many levels from the congregation scene, and the room he walks out of exits into a corridor, and it relies on him being hopelessly slow to react to a riot he already knows is happening all through the building with surprise.

But, as I say, it's as good an option as we're going to get.

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Subject: Ghost Rider Annual #2

Oct 03, 2008 12:17 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Ghost Rider Annual(2nd volume for Annual) #2
October, 2008

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Johnny Blaze), Zadkiel-FB

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg2: one night
Johnny Blaze is in Mercy, Idaho looking for an angel that's been sighted there. There's been a lot of suicides lately in Mercy and the local police deputy gives Johnny a hard time because he's new in town; he thinks he's come here to kill himself like a lot of other people have recently. 
pg3pn1-FB: a month ago
The deputy finds a 'suicide' victim, the 'angel' is seen behind him. 
pg3pn2(of 5)-pg10: same night as (1-2)
Johnny goes to the hotel and is woken by a dream, so he wanders around in the woods. He's stopped by the deputy again, and they interrupt a 'suicide.' 
pg11-pg12pn3: next day
Johnny and the deputy chat. 
pg12pn4-FB: shortly before (3:1)-FB
The deputy and the previous sheriff drive around town. 
pg12pn5(of 5): same day as (11-12:3)
Johnny and the deputy chat.
pg13pn1-pg13pn2-FB: just after (3:1)-FB, same night
The deputy turns and takes a swing at the angel. 
pg13pn3: same day as (12:5)
Johnny and the deputy chat.
pg13pn4-FB: just after (13:1-13:2)-FB, same night
The angel is gone!
pg13pn5(of 5)-pg19: same day as (13:3)
The sheriff rounds up Johnny and the deputy to go look for the angel. Johnny figures out the sheriff IS the angel, he turns into the Ghost Rider and they fight. After Ghost Rider defeats the angel, he tells a story. 
pg20pn1-pg20pn2-FB
Zadkiel begins his war in heaven against god. 
pg20pn3(of 6): same day as (13:5-19)
The angel continues his story. 
pg20pn4-pg20pn5-FB
The angel tells Zadkiel he thinks suicide shouldn't be a sin, so Zadkiel banishes him from heaven, but with the power to kill anyone on Earth and send them to heaven, regardless of any sins that may have comitted. 
pg20pn6: same day as (20:3)
The angel continues his story. 
pg21pn1-FB
The angel begins to kill people, which end up looking like suicides. He eventually ends up in Mercy, Idaho. 
pg21pn2(of 4)-pg23: same day as (20:6)
The Ghost Rider realizes that this is his chance to get into heaven.(If he were to just die, he would go to hell because of the deal he made. The Ghost Rider wuld be separated and go to heaven, which would only help Zadkiel. If the angel were to send him to heaven with Ghost Rider he would end up in heaven too, which is what he's been wanting to do for a while now) The angel tells the Ghost Rider that he has to fight him, which he does, but the angel ends up dying. 

References:
Full moon on page 4, which puts the FlashBack on pg3pn1 a month earlier, as it also shows a full moon. This issue falls between issues 25 & 26 of volume 6, and there's no mention of how long it's been since GR6 25, or in GR6 26 of how long it's been since this annual. Also, there's snow all over the place in Idaho. 

Page count does not include the recap page. 

There's also a reprint of Ghost Rider v2(Blaze series) #35. 

Breakdown: 

GR@2 2 (20:1-20:2)-FB who knows? 
GR@2 2 (20:4-20:5)-FB later
GR@2 2 (21:1)-FB montage, from (20:4-20:5)-FB up to shortly before (3:1)-FB
GR@2 2 (12:4)-FB one day
GR@2 2 (3:1)-FB shortly afterward, full moon
GR@2 2 (13:1-13:2)-FB same night
GR@2 2 (13:4)-FB same night
...
GR6 25
GR@2 2 (1-10) a month later, full moon
GR@2 2 (11-23) next day
GR6 26

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 03, 2008 8:31 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Fury. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 12

Subject: Wolverine: Killing Made Simple #1

Oct 03, 2008 12:54 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine: Killing Made Simple #1
October, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Trance(Hope Abbott), Nanny, Orphan Maker(Peter), Blindfold-BTS

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Michigan
Wolverine and Trance are captured, and Wolverine passes the time by listing off possible ways to kill him. 
Pg4-pg5-FB: 45 minutes ago
Trance eats with her family and Wolverine watches. Hes keeping tabs on her because Blindfold had a vision that said she may be in danger. And then theres an explosion!(set off by the Orphan Maker, so BTS for this FB)
Pg6: now
Wolverine lists off another way to kill him. 
Pg7-pg8-FB: 40 minutes ago
Wolverine attacks Orphan Maker while Trance tries to see if her parents are still alive. 
Pg9: now
Wolverine lists off another way to kill him. 
Pg10-pg13-FB: 35 minutes ago
Wolverine fights Orphan Maker but he and Trance get captured. VO from Nanny. 
Pg14-pg22: now
Wolverine and Trance chat until Nanny and the Orphan maker arrive. The heroes break free and escape. 

References: 
Trance had been sent home after the school shut down, so after Messiah CompleX. Also, since Blindfold had her vision to send Wolverine off, sometime after Young X-Men #6. Wolverine is in his Astonishing uniform. 

All in one night, with a bit of rain. Green grass and leaves on trees in Michigan. 

Wolverine: Killing Made Simple #1/2

Appearances: 
Wolverine

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg11
Wolverines been sent to Antarctica by some group or other because a secret research facility has cut contact with their head office. He arrives at the facility and finds a body jumping zombie virus has infected the various staff members and killed all but one. He kills the last infectee, but becomes infected himself. Luckily his healing factor kills the virus, and after he feels better he destroys the bodies and burns the facility. 

References: 
All in one day, Wolverine is in his Astonishing uniform. Nothing else to go on, really.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 03, 2008 8:43 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Colonel!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Subject: Wolverine Annual #2

Oct 03, 2008 9:01 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine Annual #2
November, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine

Synopsis: 
Pg1: New Mexico, 1938
People are digging a new well for water, but a terrible noise destroys their eardrums. 
Pg2-pg18pn4(of 5): New Mexico, now
Wolverine wanders into a New Mexico town looking for a beer, but he cant find anyone around to sell him one. He looks around a bit and is attacked by a giant coyote-monster, whos roar destroys his eardrums. He stabs it and it runs off, and once his healing factor repairs his ears he looks for people. After finding a lot of dead bodies, he comes across a house where someone is singing. Shes deaf, but she tells him a story anyway. 
Pg18pn5-pg20pn4-FB: New Mexico, 1938
The deaf lady as a young girl could find water. She leads some men to a spot and when they start digging, a giant coyote-monster roars and destroys all their eardrums. They quickly re-bury the thing. 
Pg20pn5(of 6)-pg21pn1: New Mexico, now
The old lady continues her story. 
Pg21pn2(of 5) -FB: New Mexico, June
The town has run out of well water, so a geologist has come by to find more. 
Pg21pn3-pg22-FB: later
He picks out the spot where the lady had found the monster as a girl, and she begs him not to drill, but he does anyway. The monster is let loose and starts killing everyone in town. 
Pg23-pg29: New Mexico, now
Wolverine puts on his suit and hunts the coyote-monster. He finds and disembowels it, but theres a child inside. 
Pg30-pg31-FB: old west
The boys Native American family was massacred by cowboys, so he prayed to a Navajo spirit and was granted a means for revenge by becoming a giant coyote-monster. 
Pg32-pg35: New Mexico, now
Wolverine puts the kid out his misery and lets people know that the monster is gone. Once help arrives he wanders out of town. 

References: 
Wolverine is wearing his Astonishing suit. Since the recent Flashback was in June, Im assuming the main story occurs in July. 

Similar to last year's Wolverine Annual: Deathsong, this was solicited as Wolverine: Roar #1, but neither the cover nor indicia have Roar on or in them. It does, however, say Annual #2, so Ill suggest the abbreviation W@ 2. 

A breakdown: 

W@ 2 (30-31)-FB: old west
W@ 2 (18:5-19:1)-FB: 1938
W@ 2 (1:1-1:2)-FB: same day
W@ 2 (19:2)-FB: same day
W@ 2 (1:3-1:4)-FB: same day
W@ 2 (19:3-19:5)-FB: same day
W@ 2 (1:5-1:6)-FB: same day
W@ 2 (20:1-20:4)-FB: same day, 1938
W@ 2 (21:2-22)-FB: June(late, maybe a Monday)
W@ 2 (21:3-22)-FB: July(early)
W@ 2 (2-18:4): shortly afterwards
W@ 2 (20:5-21:1): same day
W@ 2 (23-29): same day
W@ 2 (32-35): same day

Wolverine does not appear in any FlashBacks. The intermixing of the 1938 stuff is purely intellectual, no characters will get any listing from them.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 04, 2008 4:18 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thank you, Colonel.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Subject: Daredevil 107-110

Oct 06, 2008 1:15 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Daredevil v2 #107
July, 2008

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Luke Cage, Dakota North, Foggy Nelson, Becky Blake, Det. Alex Kurtz, Ben Donovan, Warden(of Ossining State Penitentiary) Sykes

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg21
Daredevil is beating the tar out of two rapists when hes interrupted by Luke Cage. Matts not in the mood to talk so he punches Cage, which only damages his hand, so he runs off. Cage then meets up with Dakota North and tells her what he was going to tell Matt; he needs a favor regarding Big Ben Donovan, a guy whos going to the electric chair in six days for decapitating three kids, but Cage thinks hes innocent. Dakota brings this to Foggy and Becky who talk it over. Meanwhile, Matt realizes that he wasnt thinking when he threw a punch at Cage. Dakota talks over the Donovan case with Detective Kurtz. Dakota pays Donovan a visit and records the conversation. Afterwards, shes attacked and warned away from Donovan. She then goes to Matts place and leaves the recording with him. 
Pg22: next day
Matt Murdock visits Ben Donovan and tells him he wants to be his lawyer. 

References: 
Matts still acting irrational, so probably no other appearances for him between this issue and last. Also, it hasnt been a terribly long time since last issue, maybe a week or so. 

I dont know if its been stated elsewhere, but the Warden of Rykers name is Cole. He doesnt appear, its just mentioned. 

Speaking of names, Det. Kurtz now has a first name: Alex. 

It starts raining in New York on page 6. 

Daredevil v2 #108
August, 2008

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Luke Cage, Dakota North, Ben Donovan, Warden Sykes, Det. Alex Kurtz, Ben Urich, Eric Slaughter, Samuel North

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8: same day as end of last issue
Donovan tells Matt that hes guilty and then beats him up. Matt makes hi sway to Dakotas place where shes chatting with Luke Cage, and he tells them hes taking the Donovan case. 
Pg9-pg22: next day
Dakota gets the security tapes from when she was attacked, then chats with Det. Kurtz, where she finds out who it was that attacked her. Meanwhile, Matt chats with Ben Urich about Donovans history, the case involving the decapitated children, and the father that went missing afterwards. That night Dakota is attacked again by the same guy, but she gets the upper hand. Her attacker is a Federal agent. When she gets back to her place her father is waiting for her. Meanwhile, Daredevil beats up some thugs looking for the father of the three decapitated children. Mr. Slaughter is informed that Daredevil is looking into the Donovan case, and that night Donovan attempts to hang himself in prison. 

References: 
Bare trees in New York. 

Daredevil v2 #109
September, 2008

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Dakota North, Samuel North, Foggy Nelson, Warden Sykes, Ben Donovan, Becky Blake, Turk, Eric Slaughter

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: same day as end of last issue
Dakotas dad warns her away from the Donovan case. 
Pg3-pg22: next day
Matt and Foggy visit Donovan in the prison hospital. They then go back to the office and compare notes with Dakota and Becky. They decide to look into the childrens missing father and into anything that may be held over Donovans head. That evening Becky discovers Donovan has a son and Dakota goes to check it out, and meets Ben Donovan Jr. Meanwhile, Daredevil chats with Turk and finds out the kids father worked for Eric Slaughter. Daredevil tries to get some information from Slaughter but it doesnt quite work. Across town, Dakota leaves Ben Jr. and is shot in the street. 

References: 
Bare trees in New York. 

Daredevil v2 #110
October, 2008

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Eric Slaughter, Dakota North, Foggy Nelson, Becky Blake, Samuel North, Ben Donovan

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg9: same night as end of last issue
As Slaughters men surround Daredevil, paramedics attend to Dakota. Daredevil escapes and makes it back to his place where a message is waiting for him on his machine: Dakotas in the hospital. He makes hi sway there, and Foggy & Becky tell him about Donovans son. 
Pg10-pg17: next day
Matt leaves the hospital and runs into her dad. After a heated discussion about Matt backing off of the Donovan case, Matt goes to the intersection where Dakota was shot and uses his senses to track down her shooter. He does, and confronts him: the Federal agent who attacked her twice. After beating him up he learns that the children were decapitated by Slaughters right hand man, and the government helped cover it up and frame Donovan because they needed Slaughter to keep an eye on incoming shipments from other countries as a matter of National Security.(Slaughter runs the shipping docks) If an investigation into one of Slaughters employees were to take place it could jeopardize the arrangement. 
Pg18-pg22: next day
Matt visits Donovan and tells him hes figured everything out, and he also brought his son. Donovan agrees to come forward with the truth. Later, Sam North informs Slaughter that his right hand man will confess to killing the children and where he buried their father, and that his operation will be kept under close tabs. North then informs Murdock that the Federal agent will go to prison for what he did to Dakota. Matt then visits Dakota at the hospital. 

References: 
Low fog over New York. 

A breakdown: 

DD2 107 (1-21): day 1
DD2 107 (22): day 2
DD2 108 (1-8): day 2
DD2 108 (9-22): day 3
DD2 109 (1-2): day 3
DD2 109 (3-22): day 4
DD2 110 (1-9): day 4
DD2 110 (10-17): day 5
DD2 110 (18-22): day 6

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 06, 2008 6:56 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Colonel, you have DD2 107 divided into pages 1-11 and page 22. Should that be pages 1-21 and page 22?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 06, 2008 11:34 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Yes. Sorry about that, and fixed.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Subject: Ghost Rider v6 26-27

Oct 05, 2008 12:17 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Ghost Rider v6 #26
October, 2008

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Johnny Blaze), Caretaker, Caretaker II(Sara), Dan Ketch, Blackout, Doghead, Death Ninja, Orb, Zadkiel-BTS

Synopsis: 
Pg1-FB: Kansas
Sister Sara tells her Mother Superior that shes been contacted by her grandfather and that shes leaving the church. 
Pg2-pg22: Tennessee, three days later
Dan Ketch, under orders from Zadkiel, has gathered Blackout, Ddeath Ninja, Doghead, and the Orb to attack Caretaker. Before they can really get started, Caretaker blows off Dogheads head with Blazes old shotgun that shoots hellfire. The rest of the group storms Caretakers house, the Orb is injured, Death Ninja dies, and Blackout injures Caretaker. Dan yells at Caretaker, and Caretaker chides Dan for working for Zadkiel, all while Caretakers house catches on fire. Meanwhile, Sister Sara fights off a truckers unwelcome advances, just as Johnny Blaze approaches

References: 
Theres a coupe of remembrance Flashbacks, but nothing with any new information. 

The Orb keeps referring to himself as the All-New Orb and mentions his All-New Repulsor Ray. This could mean he is a new Orb, or hes just upgraded. The last Orb is assumed dead as of Solo Avengers 21, but the Orb appeared later in the Deadline mini. Is this the same Orb, meaning Drake Shannon? Is this the same Orb from the Deadline mini? Who knows? 

Dan is working under orders from Zadkiel, giving him a BTS

Ghost Rider v6 #27
November, 2008

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Johnny Blaze), Caretaker, Caretaker II(Sara), Dan Ketch, Blackout, Zadkiel

Synopsis: 
Pg1-FB: Kansas
Sister Sara and the other nuns practice martial arts under the tutelage of their Mother Superior. 
Pg2-pg22: Tennesse, three months later
Sister Sara convinces Johnny to give her a ride to her grandfathers place, who turns out to be Caretaker. With his house on fire, he convinces Johnny that all the answers he seeks are inside. Meanwhile, Dan sets fire to Caretakers records in the basement. Blackout attacks Blaze, who turns into Ghost Rider and they fight. Meanwhile, Caretaker dies telling Sara she has to take over for him. She runs into the basement and absorbs the history of the Spirits of Vengeance from his burning records. Ghost Rider defeats Blackout just in time to see Dan run off into a portal to Tibet, and he goes off after him with Sara, the new Caretaker. Meanwhile in heaven, Caretaker has passed on and is greeted by Zadkiel, who destroys his essence and spreads his soul to the winds of eternity. 

References: 
To be continued!

A breakdown: 

GR6 27 (1)-FB: three months ago(Sara only)
GR6 26 (1)-FB: three days ago(Sara only)
GR6 26 (2-22): now
GR6 27 (2-22): now, same day

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 05, 2008 1:08 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Colonel. Any idea how much time has passed since issue #25?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 05, 2008 2:59 pm 
By dimadick

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
The Orb keeps referring to himself as the All-New Orb and mentions his All-New Repulsor Ray. This could mean he is a new Orb, or hes just upgraded. The last Orb is assumed dead as of Solo Avengers 21, but the Orb appeared later in the Deadline mini. Is this the same Orb, meaning Drake Shannon? Is this the same Orb from the Deadline mini? Who knows?
<<<

There might be a clue in the injury that incapacitated this Orb. A wooden board with nails gets stuck into the giant eye's pupil. The Orb falls down screaming. Shannon was just a regular guy wearing a helmet in the form of an eyeball. That injury should not have heart him. This Orb acts as if the giant eyeball is real rather than a mere helmet.

			*	*	*

Oct 05, 2008 5:49 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Thanks, Colonel. Any idea how much time has passed since issue #25?
<<<

There's no mention at all, which doesn't help you at the moment but will most likely be useful in the future whenever Ghost Rider crosses over with something else. Also, it leaves things pretty open between issues 25 & 26, in case we need any Ghost Rider guest appearances from other books to go since they've already established that he's been driving all over the country during that time in the recent Annual #2. So yeah, both helpful and not helpful at the same time.  


dimadick wrote:
>>>
There might be a clue in the injury that incapacitated this Orb. A wooden board with nails gets stuck into the giant eye's pupil. The Orb falls down screaming. Shannon was just a regular guy wearing a helmet in the form of an eyeball. That injury should not have heart him. This Orb acts as if the giant eyeball is real rather than a mere helmet.
<<<

Sure, unless the nails on that board were long enough to go through the helmet and stick into his face.
-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 07, 2008 10:53 am 
By ShadZ

The guys over at the Appendix have been trying to figure this new Orb out. So they asked the writers...

According to Bill Rosemann, writer of Deadline #2, the Orb in that story was supposed to be the original Orb, who is not dead after all

According to Jason Aaron, writer of Ghost Rider #26, the Orb in that story is intended to be a new character who indeed has a giant eyeball in place of his head

See http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/orb_grvi.htm

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Oct 07, 2008 11:16 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks, ShadZ!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Subject: the TWELVE 7

Oct 09, 2008 1:52 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

theTWELVE 1
theTWELVE 2
theTWELVE 3
theTWELVE 4
theTWELVE 5
theTWELVE 6
theTWELVE 7
October, 2008

Appearances: 
Black Widow(Claire Voyant), Blue Blade(Roy Chambers), Captain Wonder(Professor Steve Jordan), Electro Marvel of the Age!(robot), Fiery Mask(Dr. Jack Castle), Master Mind Excello(Earl Everett), Mister E.(Vince Jay), Phantom Reporter(Dick Jones), Captain Tim(Tim Mulrooney), Elizabeth Zogolowski

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5pn4(of 5): day after end of last issue
The Phantom Reporter works with the police in investigating the murder scene at the gay bar where a bunch of people were killed last night. The police suspect Dynamic Man, but the Phantom Reporter can verify his alibi. He doesnt say anything, but afterwards the Phantom Reporter suspects the Black Widow. Meanwhile, Captain Wonders old sidekick has stopped by for a visit. 
Pg5pn5-pg7-FB: origin of Captain Wonder and Tim!
Tim Mulrooney is serving detention for Professor Steve Jordan. Steve shows Tim what hes working on: recreating the Wonder Fluid. Tim, a clumsy dumbass, knocks it over and gives them both superpowers. 
Pg8pn1-pg8pn2(of 4): same day as (1-5:4)
Captain Winder, Fiery Mask, and Tim chat. 
Pg8pn3-FB: World War II
Captain Wonder and Tim fight some Nazis. 
Pg8pn4-pg10pn1(of 5): same day as (8:1-8:2)
Fiery Mask leaves and Tim fills Captain Wonder in on what hes been up to. 
Pg10pn2-pg11pn1-FB: after World War II
With Captain Wonder gone, Tim has renamed himself Captain Tim, Scourge of Crime! However, one day he attempts to stop some crime but is shot. He realizes his powers are fading. 
Pg11pn2(of 6): same day as (8:4-10:1)
Tim continues. 
Pg11pn3-pg11pn6-FB
By the 1960s Tims powers had faded completely, however he was aging slowly. One day captain America was found alive, and Tims hopes of Captain Wonder being alive also were rekindled. 
Pg12-pg22: same day as (11:2)
Tim asks Captain Wonder if hes recreated the Wonder Fluid yet. Of course he hasnt, hes been in suspended animation since April 1945. This upsets Tim and he walks off. Meanwhile, Blue Blade gets a call from his manager telling him his ratings suck. The Blue Blade then asks Elizabeth Zogolowski if she minds Electro being part of his show.(Curiously, Electro has mud on his feet) Elsewhere, the Phantom Reporter visits Master Mind Excello, who tells him of impending danger to their group. That night the Phantom Reporter visits Black Widow to confront her on his murder suspicions. Elsewhere, Tim puts on his old cape and jumps off a roof. 

References: 
Seemingly all in one night.  moon(shadow on our right) over New York. 

Initially, Tims superhero name was just Tim. But since he later went by Captain Tim, Ill suggest thats what he be listed under

Some placement suggestions: 

BLACK WIDOW/CLAIRE VOYANT
[MYSTIC COMICS 4/5]
[MYSTIC COMICS 5/5]
[MYSTIC COMICS 7/3]
[USA COMICS 5/2]
MARVELS 1 
[ALL SELECT COMICS 1/5]
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5
TWELVE 6
*TWELVE 7

BLUE BLADE/ROY CHAMBERS 
[USA COMICS 5/5]
TWELVE 1 (1-21)
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5
TWELVE 6-FB
*TWELVE 7
TWELVE 1 (22)-BTS
TWELVE 2-BTS

CAPTAIN WONDER/PROFESSOR STEVE JORDAN 
*TWELVE 7 (5:5-7)-FB
[KID KOMICS 1]
[KID KOMICS 2]
TWELVE 2-FB-FB
*TWELVE 7 (8:3)-FB
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5
TWELVE 6-FB
TWELVE 6
*TWELVE 7

DYNAMIC MAN/CURT COWAN 
[MYSTIC COMICS 1/7]
[MYSTIC COMICS 2/3]
[MYSTIC COMICS 3/8]
[MYSTIC COMICS 4/8]
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5-FB
TWELVE 5
TWELVE 6

ELECTRO/PROFESSOR PHILO ZOG 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/5 
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 9/4]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 10/5]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 11/7]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 12/5]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 13/5]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 14/6]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 15/6]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 16/3]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 17/2]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 18/5]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 19/5]
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5
*TWELVE 7
(Zog is dead and does not make an appearance in this issue, his name is just there as a placeholder until we see what happens with the Electro robot)

FIERY MASK/DR. JACK CASTLE 
TWELVE 3 (16:3)-FB
TWELVE 3 (16:5-17:1)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (1-6:5)
TWELVE 3 (17:2-17:3)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (6:6-7:3)
TWELVE 3 (17:4-18:2)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (7:4-8)
TWELVE 3 (18:3)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (9-10) 
[DARING MYSTERY COMICS 5] 
[DARING MYSTERY COMICS 6]
HUMAN TORCH 2/6 
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5
TWELVE 6
*TWELVE 7

LAUGHING MASK/DENNIS BURTON 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 2/6
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 3/3 (as the Purple Mask)
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 4 (as the Purple Mask)
TWELVE 3 (13:3-13:4)-FB
TWELVE 3 (14:3-14:5)-FB
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4-FB
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5
TWELVE 6

MASTER MIND EXCELLO/EARL EVERETT 
[MYSTIC COMICS 2]
[MYSTIC COMICS 3/5]
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5
TWELVE 6
*TWELVE 7

MISTER E./VICTOR J. GOLDSTEIN/VICTOR JAY 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 2/5
TWELVE 3 (7:4-7:5)-FB
TWELVE 3 (6:2)-FB
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3 (1-9)
TWELVE 3 (21:2)-FB
TWELVE 3 (21:4)-FB
TWELVE 3 (10-23)
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 6

PHANTOM REPORTER/DICK JONES 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 3/4
TWELVE 2-FB-FB
TWELVE 1 (1-21)
TWELVE 2-FB 
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5
TWELVE 6
*TWELVE 7
TWELVE 1 (22)
TWELVE 2

ROCKMAN 
USA COMICS 1/4 
USA COMICS 2/5 
USA COMICS 3/5 
USA COMICS 4/6 
TWELVE 4-FB
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 6

WITNESS/ 
TWELVE 5-FB
[MYSTIC COMICS 7/2]
[MYSTIC COMICS 8/4]
[MYSTIC COMICS 9/2]
TWELVE 1
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5
TWELVE 6

CAPTAIN TIM/TIM MULROONEY
TWELVE 7 (5:5-7)-FB
[KID KOMICS 1]
[KID KOMICS 2]
TWELVE 7 (8:3)-FB
TWELVE 7 (10:2-11:1)-FB
TWELVE 7 (11:3-11:6)-FB
TWELVE 7

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Subject: the TWELVE 6

Jun 23, 2008 12:32 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

The Twelve #6
August, 2008

Appearances: 
Black Widow(Claire Voyant), Blue Blade(Roy Chambers)-FB, Captain Wonder(Professor Steve Jordan), Dynamic Man(Curt Cowan), Fiery Mask(Dr. Jack Castle), Laughing Mask(Dennis Burton), Master Mind Excello(Earl Everett), Mister E.(Vince Jay), Phantom Reporter(Dick Jones), Rockman, the Witness(?), Colonel Frank Dexter

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6: same night as end of last issue
The Laughing Mask is hauled off to jail and booked. Meanwhile, the Black Widow hangs out at a night club. Elsewhere, Dick Jones has writers block so he decides to become the Phantom Reporter again to spice things up. Hes interrupted by a phone call from Master Mind Excello who warns him that something terrible is about to happen. 
Pg7-pg10: some time later
On the television a critic rips the Blue Blades show a new one. Meanwhile, Dynamic Man fights a man driving a robot suit in the street. 
Pg11-FB: earlier in the day of pg7-pg10
Captain Wonder saves a space shuttle in distress and stops a terrorist attack on a Senator. 
Pg12-pg13: same day as pg10
Some civilians invite Dynamic Man into a bar to thanks him for defeating the robot-guy, but its a gay bar and Dynamic Man leaves in disgust. Meanwhile, Col. Dexter chats with Danielle Rose who thinks that Rockman is her grand-uncle Daniel Rose. 
Pg14-pg17-FB
Dan Rose was a coal miner who wanted to form a union. He had a wife and daughter and everyone in town loved him, except for Boss Clete, a company man for the Lufton Fuel Company. He tried to hire some guys to kill Dan Rose, but the plan backfired and the mine collapsed, creating a sinkhole destroying the twon and everyone in it, including his wife and daughter. Its thought that the reason he survived is because the explosion gave his super strength and invulnerability. 
Pg18pn1(of 4): same day as pg13
Danielle continues her story. 
Pg18pn2-pg18pn3-FB
Dan Rose, overcome with grief, lost his mind. He would pound on the ground and wander the ruins of the town. 
Pg18pn4-pg23
Danielle shows Dexter a picture of Dan Rose, and even though he looks like Rockman he tells her it isnt the same man, so she leaves. Meanwhile, Rockman pounds the ground in the basement. That night, Dynamic Man, the Witness, Fiery Mask, & Mister E. watch television, Master Mind Excello expands his mind, the Laughing Mask stews in jail, everyone in the gay bar Dynamic Man was in earlier is slaughtered, the Black Widow is seen covered in blood and surrounded by body parts, and the Phantom Reporter returns! 

References: 
No Electro this issue, and the Blue Blade only appears on television. Theres enough time thats passed between pgs 6 & 7 for the Blue Blade to have filmed an episode of his new show. 

Did Black Widow kill all the bar customers? I guess we'll find out!

And heres an example of why I usually wait for the story arc to end before I analyze it: Rockman! 

If this FlashBack is proven to be true, it would seem to write off previous FlashBacks in this series to Rockmans past and all of his appearances in USA COMICS to delusions on his part. Boss Clete resembles the Evil One, his wife resembles his Queen, and his daughter, who he calls his princess, resembles his princess. Until we see more Ill set this off to the side and leave Rockmans appearances as they are. 

BLACK WIDOW/CLAIRE VOYANT
[MYSTIC COMICS 4/5]
[MYSTIC COMICS 5/5]
[MYSTIC COMICS 7/3]
[USA COMICS 5/2]
MARVELS 1 
[ALL SELECT COMICS 1/5]
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5
*TWELVE 6

BLUE BLADE/ROY CHAMBERS 
[USA COMICS 5/5]
TWELVE 1 (1-21)
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5
*TWELVE 6-FB
TWELVE 1 (22)-BTS
TWELVE 2-BTS

CAPTAIN WONDER/PROFESSOR STEVE JORDAN 
[KID KOMICS 1]
[KID KOMICS 2]
TWELVE 2-FB-FB
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5
*TWELVE 6-FB
*TWELVE 6

DYNAMIC MAN/CURT COWAN 
[MYSTIC COMICS 1/7]
[MYSTIC COMICS 2/3]
[MYSTIC COMICS 3/8]
[MYSTIC COMICS 4/8]
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5-FB
TWELVE 5
*TWELVE 6

ELECTRO/PROFESSOR PHILO ZOG 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/5 
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 9/4]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 10/5]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 11/7]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 12/5]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 13/5]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 14/6]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 15/6]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 16/3]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 17/2]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 18/5]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 19/5]
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5
(Zog is dead and does not make an appearance in this issue, his name is just there as a placeholder until we see what happens with the Electro robot)

FIERY MASK/DR. JACK CASTLE 
TWELVE 3 (16:3)-FB
TWELVE 3 (16:5-17:1)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (1-6:5)
TWELVE 3 (17:2-17:3)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (6:6-7:3)
TWELVE 3 (17:4-18:2)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (7:4-8)
TWELVE 3 (18:3)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (9-10) 
[DARING MYSTERY COMICS 5] 
[DARING MYSTERY COMICS 6]
HUMAN TORCH 2/6 
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5
*TWELVE 6

LAUGHING MASK/DENNIS BURTON 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 2/6
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 3/3 (as the Purple Mask)
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 4 (as the Purple Mask)
TWELVE 3 (13:3-13:4)-FB
TWELVE 3 (14:3-14:5)-FB
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4-FB
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5
*TWELVE 6

MASTER MIND EXCELLO/EARL EVERETT 
[MYSTIC COMICS 2]
[MYSTIC COMICS 3/5]
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5
*TWELVE 6

MISTER E./VICTOR J. GOLDSTEIN/VICTOR JAY 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 2/5
TWELVE 3 (7:4-7:5)-FB
TWELVE 3 (6:2)-FB
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3 (1-9)
TWELVE 3 (21:2)-FB
TWELVE 3 (21:4)-FB
TWELVE 3 (10-23)
TWELVE 4
*TWELVE 6

PHANTOM REPORTER/DICK JONES 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 3/4
TWELVE 2-FB-FB
TWELVE 1 (1-21)
TWELVE 2-FB 
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5
*TWELVE 6
TWELVE 1 (22)
TWELVE 2

ROCKMAN 
USA COMICS 1/4 
USA COMICS 2/5 
USA COMICS 3/5 
USA COMICS 4/6 
TWELVE 4-FB
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
*TWELVE 6

WITNESS/ 
TWELVE 5-FB
[MYSTIC COMICS 7/2]
[MYSTIC COMICS 8/4]
[MYSTIC COMICS 9/2]
TWELVE 1
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
TWELVE 5
*TWELVE 6

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jun 23, 2008 12:51 pm 
By wolframbane

In this issue it is revealed that Colonel Dexter's full name is Colonel Frank Dexter.

			*	*	*

Jun 23, 2008 11:02 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Oops! Missed that. Thanks buddy!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 09, 2008 1:47 pm 
By wolframbane

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
If this FlashBack is proven to be true, it would seem to write off previous FlashBacks in this series to Rockmans past and all of his appearances in USA COMICS to delusions on his part. Boss Clete resembles the Evil One, his wife resembles his Queen, and his daughter, who he calls his princess, resembles his princess. Until we see more Ill set this off to the side and leave Rockmans appearances as they are.
<<<

I found that if you observe the panels of Rockman's flashback (from Abysmia) from TWELVE 4, and the flashback in this issue, they are almost identical, except the change in location and characters. Boss Clete is in the same poses as the Evil One, as is Rockman and his family.

			*	*	*

Oct 11, 2008 11:42 am 
By metaldragon

Latest issue of The Twelve, Black Widow informs Phantom Reporter that she did not massacre the customers at the gay bar.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Subject: MARVEL APES #3

Oct 13, 2008 10:57 pm 
By wolframbane

MARVEL APES #3 (M/APES 3)
December 2008
"Gorilla Warfare"
26 pages

EARTH-616
Characters: The Gibbon (Martin "Marty" Blank), Dr. Fiona Fitzhugh

APEVERSE
Characters: Ape X, Speedball, Wolverine (Logan), Hulk (Dr. Bruce Bananner), Ghost Rider, Dr. Druid, Captain America, Simian Torch I (destroyed), Sgt. Furry and the Howler Commandos (including counterparts of Dum Dum Dugan, Reb Ralston, Pinky Pinkerton, Izzy Cohen, and Dino Manelli), unnamed simian counterparts to Dazzler, Iron Fist, Punisher, Storm, Cyclops
Villains: Captain America (revealed to actually be Baron Blood), Namor, Bucky, Toro, Red Raven, Baron Zemook (dies), Mindless Ones

(1) The Apeverse Watcher briefly recaps the events of issues 1-2.
(2-4) At Ape-Vengers Tower, Captain America (actually Baron Blood) brings Ape X into his inner circle, and they discuss Marty's apparent betrayal. Daytime. Probably same day as M/APES 2 (21-22:4) and Marty and Fiona's fourth day in the Apeverse.
(5-9) Marty, having awoken surrounded by the Marvel Apes, freaks out and bolts, running thru a doorway that leads directly into the Mindless Ones' dimension (this may be the Apeverse counterpart to the Mindless Ones' realm, not the reality-616 version, as Dr. Druid later explains that this door is linked "to any number of doors in our world - but only in our world"). After Speedball pulls him back, he is reunited with Fiona. The other heroes explain that the Invaders are actually vampires and they secretly oppose them, with Speedball a double agent. Dr. Druid explains they are in a pocket dimension 'safe house' established by their Dr. Strange before slain by the Invaders. Immediately after M/APES 2 (22:5-23).
(10-14:1)-FB Flashback. Captain America and Bucky battle the Nazi forces at "a secret Nazi base on the North Sea" when Baron Zemook knock them out with a paralysing x-beam. Zemook strips them of their uniforms straps the them flying bombs, when he is killed by Baron Blood, a vampire who can turn his victims into vampires immediately and alter his appearance. Cap busts free and flees, but finds Zemook's body and battles Baron Blood, who absorbs Cap's Super-Simian Serum enhanced blood and is transformed into and uber vampire. He alters his form to appear as Cap and transforms Bucky into a vamp, and they in turn vamp Toro, Red Raven and Namor when they appear "twenty minutes" later. The Invaders then destroy the Simian Torch, who is an apedroid and cannot be vamped. Apparently daytime, overcast skies, during "the last days of World War Two". Note that Cap's identification code includes "Beppo. Goodall." Beppo was Superman's monkey, Goodall is a reference to Jane Goodall.
(14:2-14:3)-FB Flashback. Sgt. Furry and the Howler Commandos arrive on the scene, and find the decimated based and ruins of the Torch. Captain America's body was never found, but people continued to believe Blood was Cap. Apparently daytime. They arrived "two days later." They say the site appeared to be "fire-bombed worse than Dresden," placing this after February 1945. Not Furry wears an eyepatch.
(14:4-16) Marty realizes if they can find the real Cap, they can stop Blood from invading Earth-616. He hypothesises that Cap may actually be frozen in the North Sea such as on Eart-616, assuming Baron Blood had ditched the body.
(17-26) "Within six hours," Marty, Fiona, Speedball, Dr. Druid, Wolverine and Bruce Bannaner (who changed from the Hulk when Druid cast a calming spell on him) are flying in an aircraft over the North Sea. They detect Cap in the ice, and Wolverine kicks Bruce out of the airlock to anger him and turn him back to the Hulk. Wolverine identifies the frozen Cap from a scar on his arm that he gave Cap in "December '44" when Cap was undercover as a Nazi. Namor and Red Raven arrive and battle them, but Druid aakens Cap who turns the tide, but the vampires escape with Fiona. Cap, Marty and the heroes resolve to save her. Nighttime, overcast. "Six hours" later, so still fourth day that Marty is in Apeverse. Note that 
Wolverine reveals himself to Cap as Logan and mentions "Remember the Ardennes?", suggesting they met during the Ardennes Offensive (Dec 16, 1944  Jan 25, 1945) during the Battle of the Bulge (this was probably where Logan scarred Cap).

Note a similar plot occured when the Red Skull stole Captain America's identity during WWII in What If? v2 #28-29.

MARVEL APES #3/2
"The Official History of Apes of the Marvel Apes Universe, Part 1: When Simians Persist in Clashing"
5 pages
The Monkeyverse Watcher, suffering from a hangover, briefly descrbed the history of Iron Mandrill, and the Secret Wars II.

"You damn dirty apes!!"

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Subject: Franklin Richards: Summer Smackdown!

Oct 12, 2008 2:29 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Franklin Richards: Summer Smackdown! #1
October, 2008

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, HEBIE, Thing(Ben Grimm), Thunder

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5
Franklin and HERBIE have accompanied the Thing to a charity UCWF event.(thats Unlimited Class Wrestling Federation) The Thing wrestles Thunder, but Thunder is actually fighting; his brother Lightning was sent to jail by the Fantastic Four a few years ago. Thunder has the Thing on the ropes, so Franklin taps in and defeats Thunder in the ring, Thunder runs off. Franklin reveals that he raided his fathers lab for a strength enhancing belt, and Franklin is announced the winner of the main event. 

Franklin Richards: Summer Smackdown! #1/2

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5
Franklin wants to play with his dad, but hes too busy in his lab. Franklin zaps him with a de-aging gun and they play for hours. The effects of the gun wears off and Reed returns to the lab, but changes his mind and plays with Franklin. 

Franklin Richards: Summer Smackdown! #1/3

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, HERBIE, Mr. Sniffles

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5
Franklins hamster Mr. Sniffles is dead, so Franklin uses a re-animator to bring him back to life. It works, but Mr. Sniffles becomes a zombie hamster and attacks Franklin and HERBIE. They use Franklins new robot dog FFido to make Mr. Sniffles jealous, and when he attacks FFido hes electrocuted. They put Mr. Sniffles in a box and figure out what to feed it. 

References: 
There are two FlashBacks, but with no new information. They just remind us that Franklin Richards: Happy Franksgiving 1 and Franklin Richards: March Madness  happened. 

Franklin Richards: Summer Smackdown! #1/4

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, HERBIE, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Mrs. Waytowich, 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5
Franklins teacher wants to talk to his parents, so Franklin gets a hologram disguise to try to get no one to talk to each other. After a bunch of running around, HERBIE, disguised as Principal Tis, gets the teacher and both Reed & Sue in the same room. 

Franklin Richards: Summer Smackdown! #1/5

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, HERBIE, Roberta(robot receptionist), Mr. Fantastic

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5
Franklin wants to play, but HERBIE has a date with Roberta. Sadly, the date ends horribly, but Franklins happy now that HERBIE has time to play. HERBIEs in no mood and goes off depressed. Later, Franklin drags HERBIE back in to reception where Roberta is more inclined to respond to HERBIE. While the two chat, Reed thanks Franklin for suggesting he upgrade Robertas artificial intelligence; now shell be more efficient AND she can show emotion. Reeds proud of his son for sacrificing time with HERBIE, so they go to do stuff together.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 12, 2008 11:20 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Fury.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 13, 2008 6:21 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Franklin Richards: Summer Smackdown! #1/5

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, HERBIE, Roberta(robot receptionist), Mr. Fantastic

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5
Franklin wants to play, but HERBIE has a date with Roberta. Sadly, the date ends horribly, but Franklins happy now that HERBIE has time to play. HERBIEs in no mood and goes off depressed. Later, Franklin drags HERBIE back in to reception where Roberta is more inclined to respond to HERBIE. While the two chat, Reed thanks Franklin for suggesting he upgrade Robertas artificial intelligence; now shell be more efficient AND she can show emotion. Reeds proud of his son for sacrificing time with HERBIE, so they go to do stuff together.
<<<

Presumably, this should be placed before Fin Fang Four, as Roberta is fully sentient there. [She must dump Franklin's Herbie at some stage for Elektro. Which, given the way the mailroom Herbies treat Elektro, is kinda amusing ]

			*	*	*

Oct 14, 2008 7:02 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for that point. I'm inclined to place just this one story before FIN FANG FOUR, long before the other stories in SUMMER SMACKDOWN, not to mention stories in MARCH MADNESS, FALL FOOTBALL FIASCO, SPRING BREAK, and NOT SO SECRET INVASION.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Subject: Punisher War Journal v2 18-23

Oct 11, 2008 6:40 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Punisher War Journal v2 #18
June, 2008

Appearances: 
Jigsaw, Ian, Ians Doctor-lady from issue 11(Lynn Michaels)

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22
Jigsaw tortures a guy in a pawn shop while the pawn shop guys police officer brothers get guns from evidence to sell on the black market. Jigsaw kills the pawn shop owner while Ian and his doctor kill the police officers, both dressed as the Punisher. Ian then calls the police to report the incident, and that the officers were fencing guns. Ian then tells them hes the Punisher. 

References: 
That's right, no Punisher in this issue. 

Page 19 has a few FlashBacks: 

(19:1)-FB
The Punishers family is gunned down in Central Park. No new information. 
(19:2)-FB
The Punisher throws Jigsaw through a window. As far as I know, no new information. 
(19:3)-FB
Jigsaw recovers in the hospital. I think this is new, but Im not sure where it fits

Punisher War Journal v2 #19
July, 2008

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Diamonelle, Jigsaw, Ian, Ians Doctor-lady from issue 11(Lynn Michaels), Rampage(Stuart Clarke), G. W. Bridge, Silver Sable, Domino, & the Contessa Valentina Allegro DeFontaine!

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8: not long after last issue
To start the day, Frank gets a message from Diamonelle. He then goes about running some errands and reads the paper. That afternoon, Jigsaw holds a meeting with other criminals, assuring then that the Hood is happy with what hes doing. He & Ians doctor-lady then send Ian out on more Punisher-style jobs. 
Pg9-pg22: next day
Frank runs more errands, but one of the shop keepers he goes to has been killed. He heads back to his place but the doorman is dead, and hes attacked. He runs upstairs to grab Diamonelle and they make a break for it. They meet up with Clarke and watch the news, where the police are holding a press conference about the Punisher. Meanwhile, G. W. Bridge and his team of Silver Sable, Domino, & the Contessa are hitting Franks usual errand spots. 

References: 
Its probably only a few days since last issue. The paper Franks reading has the headline Punisher Kill Spread: Vigilante Murder Rampage, which has to give Ian a least a little time to kill more people in the Punishers name. Not much time, though, because also on the front page is a story about the police officers killed by Ian from last issue. Also, the newspaper is the DB!. 

Sadly, the Contessa appearing here is a Skrull. 

Punisher War Journal v2 #20
August, 2008

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Jigsaw, Ian, Diamonelle(Lynn Michaels), Rampage(Stuart Clarke), G. W. Bridge, Silver Sable, Domino, & the Contessa Valentina Allegro DeFontaine!

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: day after end of last issue
Jigsaw hires the Hand to kill the Punisher. Meanwhile, G. W. Bridge and his team figure out that a Punisher imposter is actually responsible for the recent killings, and that Jigsaw is behind it. Later, the Punisher, Clarke, and Diamonelle are attacked by the Hand. 

Punisher War Journal v2 #21
September, 2008

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Ian, G. W. Bridge, Silver Sable, Domino, & the Contessa Valentina Allegro DeFontaine!

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: same day as last issue
The Hand ninjas are about to kill the Punisher when Silver Sable, Domino, and the Contessa Valentina Allegro DeFontaine interrupt them. The head assassin follows and attacks the Punisher, but he kills her while the ladies kill the others. The Punisher, wounded, wanders off into the subway and is attacked by Ian. Ian is about to kill him when hes interrupted by G. W. Bridge. 

Punisher War Journal v2 #22
Ocotober, 2008

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Clarke), Diamonelle(Lynn Michaels), G. W. Bridge, Silver Sable, Domino, & the Contessa Valentina Allegro DeFontaine!, Jigsaw, Wrecker, Thunderball, Bulldozer, Piledriver, Rhino-BTS

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: two weeks after last issue
Diamonelle and Clarke chat about the Punisher. Clarke wants to break him out of S.H.I.E.L.D. custody, but Diamonelle tries to talk him out of it. Meanwhile, the Punisher is released from a S.H.I.E.L.D. hospital and is prepared to be transported to prison. Back at Clarkes place, Diamonelle tells Clarke that the Punisher killed his girlfriend, but he doesnt believe her. So she shoots him. Meanwhile, G. W. Bridge chats with the Punisher while hes being transported. The convoy is attacked by Jigsaw with a bazooka, and the Wrecking Crew attack, theyve been hired to kill the Punisher. 

References: 
Its revealed that Diamonelle is actually Ians doctor, so she finally has a name. Not that Diamonelle is actually her real name, as well find out, but its better than Ians doctor-lady from issue 11 

As established in issue 19, Jigsaw is working with the Hood now. Apparently, hes cleared using the Wrecking Crew with him, but I dont think that qualifies the Hood for a BTS. It just establishes that this takes place after the Hood positions himself as the new Kingpin of super powered criminals. 

As revealed next issue, Clarke calls the Rhino. We dont hear his end of the phone conversation, giving the Rhino a BTS for the issue. 

PWJ2 22 (14:2)-FB shows G. W. Bridge in Vietnam. So before XFOR 8-FB, then. 

Punisher War Journal v2 #23
November, 2008

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), G. W. Bridge, Silver Sable, Domino, & the Contessa Valentina Allegro DeFontaine!, Jigsaw, Wrecker, Thunderball, Bulldozer, Piledriver, Rhino, Lynn Micheals(Diamonelle/Ians doctor)

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg17: same day as end of last issue
Everyone fights and the Rhino arrives to help the Punisher. With the score settled between Rhino and the Punisher, the Rhino takes the defeated Wrecking Crew away. Punisher then beats the tar out of Jigsaw, but stops short of killing him and turns himself over to Bridge and S.H.I.E.L.D.. 
Pg18-pg22: next day
Clarke decides its time to become Rampage again. Meanwhile, Bridge thanks agent Lynn Michaels for her infiltration into Jigsaws organization and her neutralization of Clarke. She then takes Ian to shoot Jigsaw. 

References: 
Lynn Michaels: Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. was actually Diamonelle AND Ians doctor the whole time! Neat! So as far as I can tell: 

MICHAELS, LYNN

PWJ 77
PWJ 78
*PWJ2 11
*PWJ2 16
*PWJ2 18
*PWJ2 19
*PWJ2 20
*PWJ2 22
*PWJ2 23

And: 

BRIDGE, GEORGE WASHINGTON "G.W." 
*PWJ2 22-FB
XFOR 8-FB

A breakdown: 

PWJ2 16: Punisher rescues Diamonelle

PWJ2 18: one day, Diamonelle now giving Frank messages
PWJ2 19 (1-8): a few days later
PWJ2 19 (9-22): next day
PWJ2 20: next day
PWJ2 21: same day
PWJ2 22: two weeks later
PWJ2 23 (1-17): same day
PWJ2 23 (18-22): next day

PWJ2 1-3 were Civil War tie-ins, PWJ2 5 is the Death of Captain America and 6-11 are a continuation of that. PWJ2 12 is a World War Hulk tie-in. PWJ2 13-15 is an adventure with the Rhino, PWJ2 16-17 is a prequel to PWJ2 18-23, which finally wraps up the Bridge looking for the Punisher plot, the Rhino subplot, the Ian subplot, & the Jigsaw plot, and ends with the Punisher in prison. Next issue, the Punisher is still in prison when the Skrulls attack, so no appearances for the Punisher anywhere else between this issue and next. Luckily, the Punisher can sit in prison for as long as we need him to.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 12, 2008 11:10 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Colonel.

Punisher appears in RUN2 25-26. RUN2 25-30 appear to take place during the course of a single day, probably the day before SECRET INVASION, since the team is still in New York during the invasion, even though they were preparing to return to California in RUN2 30. PWJ2 24 takes place during the invasion, when the shutdown of Starktech allows him to escape prison.

So now it looks like we have to wedge PWJ2 19-23, including the "two week" gap between PWJ2 21 and 22, between RUN2 26 and Secret Invasion. So I guess the Runaways decided to stay in New York for a while... 
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 12, 2008 1:23 pm 
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Punisher appears in RUN2 25-26.
<<<

And in one panel of RUN2 30, which is one of the main reasons why we can't insert anything during the Runaways' trip to the past.

Or maybe the Punisher in Runaways was a Skrull ? 

			*	*	*

Oct 12, 2008 1:32 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

OR... maybe that was Ian in a Punisher suit in RUN2 30? He was running around claiming to be the Punisher, then we would either have to fudge the two weeks for Punisher to heal, or the Runaways decided to hang around New York for two weeks before heading out.(Did the Punisher in RUN2 30 recognize them, or is that one panel appearance just him 'being there'?) 

I didn't read RUN2 25-30, but didn't the Kingpin appear in an issue or two? And didn't Quesada in one of his New Joe Fridays say it was before Kingpin left for Europe, so around the time of Daredevil v2 93/94? 

Also, when the Runaways return from the past is it definitively stated they returned to WHEN they came? Could they have accidentally returned a few weeks or so after they left?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 12, 2008 3:10 pm 
By JD

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Also, when the Runaways return from the past is it definitively stated they returned to WHEN they came? Could they have accidentally returned a few weeks or so after they left?
<<<

Exactly in the same time and place they left. The missiles launched at the Leapfrog in RUN2 26 are still just behind them !
The Punisher's appearance is just him still reeling from Molly's punch in RUN2 26, he does not meet the Runaways again.
Ditto for the Kingpin, who's busy having his unconscious Hand ninjas smuggled into a truck.

I like the Ian theory (how convenient of PWJ2 to have an actual Punisher imposter running around juste before SI !), but the Punisher in RUN2 25-26 does have his usual internal monologue...

I don't think Fisk is a problem : RUN2 26 explicitly states that he's on a short visit after DD2 93. It could take place anytime (he's not appeared elsewhere since then, right ?)

			*	*	*

Oct 12, 2008 4:14 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

JD wrote:
>>>
By the way, here's a link to my analysis of this Runaways arc :
<<<

Thanks! 


JD wrote:
>>>
 Exactly in the same time and place they left. The missiles launched at the Leapfrog in RUN2 26 are still just behind them !
The Punisher's appearance is just him still reeling from Molly's punch in RUN2 26, he does not meet the Runaways again.
Ditto for the Kingpin, who's busy having his unconscious Hand ninjas smuggled into a truck.
<<<

Got it. 


JD wrote:
>>>
I don't think Fisk is a problem : RUN2 26 explicitly states that he's on a short visit after DD2 93. It could take place anytime (he's not appeared elsewhere since then, right ?)
<<<

Agreed.(and as far as I know)


JD wrote:
>>>
I like the Ian theory (how convenient of PWJ2 to have an actual Punisher imposter running around juste before SI !), but the Punisher in RUN2 25-26 does have his usual internal monologue...
<<<

Rats. Yeah, that's Frank Castle in RUN2. 

Well, this arc of Runaways took how long to finish?(checks the analysis) A year and a half.(!) This couldn't have originally been intended to be directly before Secret Invasion, but the Young Avengers/Runaways Secret Invasion mini apparently picks up the day after this left off. Can we just fudge it and assume the Runaways decided to do some sight seeing before they left? And that it took a few weeks? And Secret Invasion picks up when their sight seeing is over(which just happens to be enough time for Punisher to get arrested, heal, and end up in prison) and they're finally ready to go back to California?

-Daron Jensen

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Oct 13, 2008 6:47 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Can we just fudge it and assume the Runaways decided to do some sight seeing before they left? And that it took a few weeks? And Secret Invasion picks up when their sight seeing is over(which just happens to be enough time for Punisher to get arrested, heal, and end up in prison) and they're finally ready to go back to California?
<<<

I think that this is the easiest way for us to deal with this obvious continuity gaffe from our friends at Marvel. I'm going to go ahead and insert PWJ2 19-23 between RUN2 30 and SECINV:YA/R 1. I'll allow the least amount of time possible (two weeks) to prevent the Runaways from spending unneccessary extra time in New York. I'll place the Skrull invasion (and PWJ2 24) the day after the end of PWJ2 23. This means that Punisher's incarceration is short-lived. Sound good?

Paul B.

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Oct 13, 2008 2:57 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I think that will work!

-Daron Jensen

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Oct 14, 2008 6:48 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
PWJ2 18 (19:3)-FB
Jigsaw recovers in the hospital. I think this is new, but Im not sure where it fits
<<<

I'm not sure either. Can anyone shed light on this?

Paul B.

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Oct 14, 2008 11:33 am 
By dimadick

Jigsaw is thrown "face first through a plate glass window on the second floor" in "Punisher:Year One" #4 (March, 1995). No mention of his fate there.

Then goes the two part "Amazing Spider-Man" #161-162 (October - November, 1976) where he is alive and scarred. He leads his own gang into committing a series of murders to lure Punisher to him. They succeed but also draw the attention of Nightcrawler and Spider-Man. The three vigilantes defeat the entire gang. 

I don't think Jigsaw waking up in hospital has been depicted before. Wouln't it fit between the two storylines above?

			*	*	*

Oct 14, 2008 1:52 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Looks good to me: 

JIGSAW/BILLY RUSSO 
PUN:YO 3
PUN:YO 4
*PWJ2 18-FB
ASM 161-BTS
{ASM 162}
ASM 188
...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 14, 2008 7:15 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, dimadick!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Subject: X-MEN ORIGINS: JEAN GREY #1

Oct 08, 2008 2:47 am 
By wolframbane

X-MEN ORIGINS: JEAN GREY #1 (XO:JG 1)
October 2008
30 Pages
No title given

Characters: Charles Xavier (Professor X), Jean Grey (Marvel Girl), Cyclops, Beast, Iceman, Angel (also as Avenging Angel, on television, behind the scenes), Professor John Grey, Elaine Grey, Sara Grey (later Sara Bailey), Annie Richardson (in memory), Magneto (on television, behind the scenes), Carina

Synopsis:
(1-2) Charles Xavier visits the Grey household (in Annandale-on-Hudson). John and Elaine Grey show him their daughter Jean, catatonic since the death of Annie Richardson. She responds to his telepathic greeting. Daytime, snow on ground and snowing, barren trees, frosted windows (probably winter). Note that Charles' Rolls Royce (seen in many early UX issues) is in driveway.
(3) Charles discusses helping Jean to recover with John, Elaine and Sara Grey. Darkened room with a lit fireplace, probably same evening as (1-2). Elaine mentions that Jean has been catatonic "for the last two years," which is erroneous, as is the reference to "three years" from UX 308. From BIZADV 27, Jean was "ten years old" in "late summer," and was an "eleven-year old" when brought out of her catatonia, so she was catatonic for only a year. Note that John wears a 'Bard' sweater, where he attended college with Charles and currently is a professor there.
(4-6) Charles reaches into Jean's mind, where she is reliving the death of her friend Annie after a car accident. Charles tells Jean that when Annie died, the trauma triggered Jean's telepathy and she experienced the death of Annie with her. Charles telepathically draws Jean out of her catatonia and offers to train her in her powers. Daytime, frosted windows (still winter), possibly the day after (1-2). XO:JG 1 (4:2)-FB depicts a young Jean on her knees in front of a dying Annie shouting "Noo! Annie!", which probably occurs between BIZADV 27 (12:1) and (12:2).
(7:1) Charles teaches Jean to use her telepathy.
(7:2) Charles teaches Jean to use her telekinesis, including practicing levitating herself.
(7:3) Charles and Jean visit Annie's grave. Daytime, snow on ground and barren trees (probably still winter).
(7:4-8) Jean and Sarah are reunited after her recovery.
(9-11) Charles takes Jean to a mall to test her ability to block out the thoughts of others, but she loses control and knocks over several people telekinetically. Daytime.
(12) Jean withdraws again. Charles tells John and Elaine he will have to temporarily block her telepathy until she is able to learn to cope with everything else. Daytime, snowing, frosted windows (probably still winter).
(13-16) Jean makes peace with her own demons within her mind and says goodbye to Annie, as Charles erects a psychic wall to halt her telepathy. NOTE: The events of XO:JG 1 (1-16) all appear to occur during the winter during which Jean was eleven years old, several years before UX 1.
(17) Charles discusses with John and Elaine about Jean coming to his school. Daytime, green bushes outside. The report of an "Angel Sighting" on the news refers to the activities of the Avenging Angel, which places this during UX 55/2-56/2, during Autumn of YEAR 2 according to the OMITTX 3 and Paul Bourcier's Marvel Calendar.
(18) Jean says goodbye to her parents as she takes a cab to the school. She wears the same black and blue clothing in XO:JG 1 (18), UX 322 (12:1-12:2)-FB
and UX 1. This is during late October of YEAR 3 according to the OMITTX 1 and Paul Bourcier's Marvel Calendar.
(19-22) Jean, now as Marvel Girl, trains in the Danger Room with the X-Men (Cyclops, Angel, Iceman, Beast). Jean buckles when attempting to deflect a missile.
(23) Prof X and Jean discuss her progress in his office after the Danger Roon, when Beast warns them of danger on television. Daytime.
(24:1-24:3) Prof X and the X-Men fly to battle Magneto, but Jean had apparently left school grounds beforehand and is not with them. Note they are flying in Charles' Lear jet (seen in many X:FC and early UX issues). Daytime.
(24:5-25:1)-BTS The X-Men (minus Marvel Girl) battle Magneto (as seen on television).
(24:4-29) Jean walks through town (probably nearby Salem Center) during a sidewalk sale, and sees the X-Men battle Magneto on television. After she meets a girl named Carina, an EMS truck flips and slides towards a crowd. Jean uses her telekinesis to stop the truck and save people. Carina is shocked that she is a mutant as Jean levitates away. Daytime, green trees.
(30) Jean and Charles are at the school, where Charles gives her a detention for leaving school grounds. Daytime, green trees, blossoming flowers. NOTE: The events of XO:JG 1 (19-30) all occur during one day. Note Charles is in a wheelchair resembling the hover chair he would not use until much later, this is probably an error.

Placement Notes regarding the events of XO:JG 1 (19-30):
After UX 8, as Iceman is in his 'icy' form.
Before UX 25, which is the last time Jean wears her cowl-style mask (although she briefly wore her domino-style mask style in UX 6).
During a time when Magneto was not a prisoner of the Stranger, so not between UX 11 and UX 16, nor UX 18 and A 47. He briefly escaped during UX 16-18, but was recaptured by the Stranger only hours after the X-Men learned of his escape.
Possibly after UX 14, as Jean is able to levitate, although Jean has been training at levitation since she was at least eleven (XO:JG 1 (7:2)), and this may have been an isolated incident given her briefly renewed confidence after stopping the EMS truck.
During a period when Prof X is present.

I would place this story sometime between UX 9 (after Iceman becomes 'icy' and Prof X returns after battling Lucifer) and UX 11 (before Magneto abducted by Stranger), and treat Jean's levitation of herself as a fluke.

NOTE that this story partly retells the flashback from BIZADV 27 (6:2-8:1). I do not have access to the complete issue, but here are online scans I have found and worked with.
http://www.geocities.com/marvelindex/bizadv-27-1-5.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/marvelindex/bizadv-27-1-6.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/marvelindex/bizadv-27-1-7.jpg

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Oct 14, 2008 11:46 pm 
By wolframbane

For placement, I figure the events of XO:JG 1 (19-30) occur between UX 10 and UX 11 (narrowed down from UX 9-11). Perhaps after her abduction by the Swamp Men in the Savage Land in UX 10, her confidence was affected by the incident, but after she stopped the EMS truck, her confidence was restored enough for her to levitate away afterwards, a feat she was unable to accomplish again until UX 14.

ANGEL III/WARREN KENNETH WORTHINGTON III
...
*UX 55/2 (4:1-4:3)-FB
*XO:JG 1 (17)-BTS (on television)
UX 55/2
...
UX 10
*XO:JG 1 (19-30)
UX 11
...

BAILEY, SARA GREY 
*BIZADV 27 (6:2-7:6)-FB-FB-BTS ("Sara was away at Girl Scout Camp")
*XO:JG 1 (3)
*XO:JG 1 (7:4-8)
*UX 322 (12:1-12:2)-FB
UX 22-BTS
BIZADV 27-FB
{UX 136}
...

BEAST/HENRY "HANK" P. MCCOY 
...
UX 10
*XO:JG 1 (19-30)
UX 11
...

CYCLOPS II/SCOTT SUMMERS 
...
UX 10
*XO:JG 1 (19-30)
UX 11
...

GREY, DR. JOHN 
*BIZADV 27 (6:2-8:1)-FB-FB
*XO:JG 1 (1-16)
UX -1
*XO:JG 1 (17)
*XO:JG 1 (18)
{UX 5}
...

GREY, ELAINE 
*BIZADV 27 (6:2-8:1)-FB-FB
*XO:JG 1 (1-16)
*XO:JG 1 (17)
*XO:JG 1 (18)
{UX 5}
...

ICEMAN/ROBERT "BOBBY" DRAKE 
...
UX 10
*XO:JG 1 (19-30)
UX 11
...

MAGNETO/MAGNUS/"ERIC LENSHERR" 
...
UX 8-BTS
*XO:JG 1 (19-30)-BTS (on television)
UX 11
...

MARVEL GIRL/JEAN GREY SUMMERS 
*BIZADV 27-FB-FB
X:WA-FB
X:WA-FB
*BIZADV 27-FB-FB
*XO:JG 1 (1-16)
*UX 273 (19:5-19:7)-FB
CX 42/2
...
XMF 4
*XO:JG 1 (17)
*UX 322 (12:1-12:2)-FB
*XO:JG 1 (18)
{UX 1}
...
UX 10
*XO:JG 1 (19-30)
UX 11
...

PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER 
...
UX 309 (13-14)-FB
X:WA-FB
*BIZADV 27 (8:1)-FB-FB
*XO:JG 1 (1-16)
XCAL3 5-FB
CX 19/2-FB
*UX 273 (19:5-19:7)-FB
CX 42/2
...
UX 46/2
*XO:JG 1 (17)
UX 55/2
...
UX 10
*XO:JG 1 (19-30)
UX 11
...

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Subject: AGE OF THE SENTRY #1

Oct 16, 2008 2:46 am 
By wolframbane

Here is my reviews for AGE OF THE SENTRY #1. I am only somewhat familiar with the placement of early Sentry stories, so I will give annotations as necessary. I 'borrowed' some notes from Paul B at viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4007&p=25266&hilit=sentry#p25266

Note that AOS 1 and AOS 2/2 appear to be framing stories involving a father tellings his son a bedtime story about Sentry.

AGE OF THE SENTRY #1/2 (AOS 1/2)
September 2008
"The Secret Origin of the Sentry"
10 pages

Characters: Sentry (Robert Reynolds), Scout, Watchdog, Lindy Lee (later Lindy Lee Reynolds), Professor Hugo Cornelius, Burton Dubois (editor of Excelsior Encyclopedia)
Villains: Cranio, Gorax, Men-Bot, the Void, a demon

Synopsis:
(1:2-2) Hugo Dubois sends Rob Reynolds and Linda Lee to interview Prof. Cornelius. Rob asks Scout (an ice cream vendor) to field and catastrophies while he is gone. Daytime, green trees.
(3-5) Rob and Lindy arrive at the Professor's lab, where he has developed "a living gelatin that responds to brainwaves". He places an alien brain found in the villain Cranio's collection into the goo, which reforms the body of the evil alien Gorax, who drains Rob of his powers before going on a rampage, putting Rob into a coma and revealing to Lindy he is actually Sentry. Lindy summons Scout and Watchdog, and they determine the only thing that can save Sentry is the same formula that gave him his powers. Since it was all apparently gone after Sentry first gained his powers, the Professor uses a time machine to allow the other three to travel back in time to observe Sentry's history.
(6:1-6:4) Scout, Lindy and Watchdog observe "the day Sentry met Cranio, the man with the tri-level mind." They decide to not interfere and risk a paradox.
(6:5) Appearing to systematically go backwards with observing Sentry's life, they see "the first time he faced Men-Bot" and "his first encounter with the Void... we must be almost there." There is also an image of Sentry having a fiddling contest with the devil (Mephisto perhaps?).
(7-9:3) They observe a young student Rob Reynolds (OHOTMU states he is a high school graduate, so he is probably a high school student) delivering food to the lab off Prof. Cornelius and his associate, when they get a report of a Russian nuclear missile that misfired and is heading right for them (ref to USSR on missile and "the Reds" are topical). Rob drinks the professor's secret formula, which grants him a powerful body, and he flies into space and throws the missile into the sun. He returns to the lab and considers becoming the Sentry, as Scout and Lindy take the remainder of the formula in the beaker (which is why there was none remaining). Daytime, green trees. Note this may conflict with other sources of his actual origin.
(9:4-9:5) They return to the present, and Professor gives Sentry the formula.
(9:6-10:2) Gorax locates Cranio and attacks him, but a recovered Sentry arrives and destroys his goo body, recovering the alien's brain. Cranio is revealed to be a dummy.
(10:3-10:5) Sentry returns to the lab and states he sent Gorax's brain into the Negative Zone (erroneously shown still holding brain in his hand). Prfessor uses a Lethio-Ray to erase Lindy's memory of her knowledge of Sentry's secret identity and history (possibly the same technology used to later remove the world's memory of Sentry altogether).
NOTES: One day. This story occurs sometime after FF 51 (when Reed Richards discovered the Negative Zone) and sometime after he first faced Void. It also occurs before the flashback in NEW AVENGERS #10 in which Reynolds has his third date with Lindy Lee (Thanks Paul!!). The second flashback involves the origin of Sentry. The OHOTMU said he was active "years" before the FF, so I would place this at least a few years before FF 1.

AGE OF THE SENTRY #1/3 (AOS 1/3)
September 2008
"Public Service Announcement"
10 pages

Characters: Sentry
Villains: Mad Thinker, Terrible Tinkerer, Torr (next in Amazing Adventures #1)

Synopsis:
(1:2-2) Sentry meets with 'directors' Jose Santini (Mad Thinker) and Phineas Mason (Terrible Tinkerer) to fill a series of public services announcements. Sentry flies them to the waterfront after he signs autographs. During "one morning." Daytime, warm weather clothing.
(3-4) Sentry does his announcement but feels weaker when he leaves. Santini and Mason note that their "parasite ray projector" stole a tenth of the Sentry's powers.
(5:1-5:3) Sentry does another anouncement (becoming weaker), and fights criminals that day and evening. "The next day."
(5:4-6:2) Rob Reynolds calls into work sick (due to being contnually weakened), but sees a television broadcast of the alien Torr attacking. "Three days later." Daytime.
(6:3-8:1) Sentry, despite being weakened, battles and defeats the alien Torr at a construction site. Torr wanted to add Earth to his empire.
(8:2-10) After battling Torr, he arrives at the studio to film the last announcement. Santini and Mason completely drain Sentry's power, but the weakened Sentry stumbles and falls into the projector, destroying it and replenishing his energy. Re-energized, the Sentry apprehends the crooks.
NOTES: Five days. The Thinker is noted as "Jose Santini," an alias he adopted when he kidnapped the real Santini in FF 68-70. It would make sense that this story occurs sometime after that, and after the Thinker's subsequent stay in jail that lasted at least through FF 79 (again, Thanks Paul!!). Sentry notes he already knows Reed Richards. Torr was also seen in Amazing Adventures #1, as http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/torramazing.htm

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Subject: October call for analyses

Oct 01, 2008 8:34 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Boy, with the recent proliferation of titles, things are stacking up here, even though my own buy list has been bulging.  

As usual, I've noted folks who have agreed to submit analyses, as well as those issues and story arcs that are desperately seeking analysts to give them some attention. Please let me know if I've messed up any listings. If anyone out there would like to volunteer, please let me know.

As always, thanks to folks who post analyses in this forum!  

Completed stories (as of 10/1/08)
Amazing Spider-Man Family #2
Angel: Revelations #1-5 (wolframbane)
Cable v3 #3-5
ClanDestine v2 #1-5 (Don)
Daredevil: Battlin Jack Murdock #1-4 (JD)
Daredevil: Dead On Arrival (Jeph)
Foolkiller v2 #1-5
Guardians of the Galaxy v2 #1-3 (Somebody)
Immortal Iron Fist #10-14 (Don)
Immortal Iron Fist #15-16 (Don)
Immortal Iron Fist: Orson Randall and the Death Queen of California
Immortal Iron Fist: The Origin of Danny Rand
King-Size Cable Spectacular #1
Moon Knight v5 #14-19 (Deuce)
Moon Knight v5 #20 (Deuce)
Nova v4 #13-15 (Kevin)
Skaar: Son of Hulk Presents: Savage World of Sakaar #1 (Kevin)

Future stuff
Amazing Spider-Man Family #3
Big Hero Six #1-5
Captain America: Theater of War  America First! [pre-FF 1] (Col_Fury)
Captain America: Theater of War  Operation Zero-Point [pre-FF 1] (Col_Fury)
Captain America: White #0-6 [pre-FF 1] (Col_Fury)
Daredevil v2 #111-? (Col_Fury)
Dead of Night Featuring Devil Slayer #1-4
Eternals, v4 #1-? (Col_Fury)
Eternals Annual #1
Foolkiller: White Angels #1-5
Franklin Richards: Sons of Geniuses (Col_Fury) 
Ghost Rider v6 #28-? (Col_Fury)
Ghost Rider: Danny Ketch #1-5 (Col_Fury)
Immortal Iron Fist #17-20
Marvel 1985 #1-6
Marvel Apes #4 (wolframbane)
Marvel Zombies v3 #1-4
Moon Knight: Silent Night #1
Nova v4 #19-?
NYX: No Way Home #1-6
Punisher v7 #61-65
Punisher Max X-Mas Special
Punisher War Journal v2 #26
Punisher War Journal Annual #1
Punisher War Zone v2 #1-6
Runaways v3 #1-? (JD) 
Skaar: Son of Hulk #2-6 (Kevin)
Sub-Mariner: The Depths #1-4 [pre-FF 1] (Frederic)
Thor: God-Sized #1
Venom: Dark Origin #1-5
Weapon X: First Class #1-3
Wolverine v3 #66-73 (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: Chop Shop (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: Flies to a Spider (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: Manifest Destiny #1-4 (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: Origins #31-32 (Col_Fury)
X-Men: Magneto  Testament #1-5 [pre-FF 1] (wolframbane)
X-Men Origin: Beast (wolframbane)

Paul B.

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Oct 02, 2008 7:18 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Whoops! I've fallen a bit behind, it looks like.(It's been a busy/crazy two months!) I should be back on track soon, though. 

Might as well put more on my plate, so you can sign me up for Captain America: Theater of War  America First! and Ghost Rider: Danny Ketch #1-5. Why not? 

Also, while it was solicitied as Wolverine: Roar, both the cover and indicia call it Wolverine Annual #2. The story is titled 'Roar', but I think that should be switched to Wolverine Annual #2. You can keep me on for it, by the way.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 03, 2008 7:47 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Much obliged, Fury. I've updated the call.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 03, 2008 8:12 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I forgot to mention earlier, but you can put me down for Wolverine: Chop Shop, Wolverine: Flies to a Spider, Wolverine: Manifest Destiny #1-4, & Wolverine: Origins #31-32. It looks like you'll be picking up Wolverine: Origins 29 & 30 yourself as part of the Original Sin crossover with X-Men: Legacy, but I'll still submit an analysis for those issues as well as X-Men Legacy 217 & 218, in addition to X-Men: Original Sin #1. Probably all in one big batch.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 03, 2008 8:23 pm 
By Somebody
Director

The only unclaimed thing I could do from the list would be GOTG2 1-3... but given that (a) we don't know what the deal is with Vance Astro or Starhawk yet (the "answers" regarding the latter in #5 just raise more questions) and (b) I can't figure out when the smegging debrief logs from #1 could possibly be recorded while maintaining internal consistency, it'd be a while since I wouldn't want any part of the analysis to be overtaken by events...

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
I forgot to mention earlier, but you can put me down for Wolverine: Chop Shop, Wolverine: Flies to a Spider, Wolverine: Manifest Destiny #1-4, & Wolverine: Origins #31-32. It looks like you'll be picking up Wolverine: Origins 29 & 30 yourself as part of the Original Sin crossover with X-Men: Legacy, but I'll still submit an analysis for those issues as well as X-Men Legacy 217 & 218, in addition to X-Men: Original Sin #1. Probably all in one big batch.
<<<

Wolverine Addiction IS a known condition, and various voluntary organisations exist to help rehabilitate sufferers, as I understand it 

			*	*	*

Oct 04, 2008 3:21 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks to you, Colonel and Somebody.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

06, 2008 12:26 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Daredevil v2 #111 is the first part of a multiple issue story and ends with a to be continued, so that should probably be moved down to Future Stuff. I don't know how many issues the arc will last, though. You can keep me on for it, by the way. 

Also, I may be wrong, but isn't Daredevil: Dead On Arrival and Daredevil & Captain America: Dead on Arrival the same thing?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 06, 2008 6:03 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the corrections, Fury.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 09, 2008 9:28 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul, are you getting the December "What If's" this year? I plan on doing so, and can provide analysis once again this year, letting you know if there's any "Earth-616" scenes...

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Oct 11, 2008 12:28 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I have no plans to pick them up, so please do let us know about any 616 scenes. Thanks.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 12, 2008 2:37 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Did you see what I did there, Paul?  I threw a big wrench at you with Punisher 56-60, but then I made up for it with War Journal & Franklin Richards. 

AND, you can sign me up for Franklin Richards: Sons of Geniuses & Ghost Rider v6 #28-?. See? I'm a nice guy...  

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 12, 2008 9:38 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
See? I'm a nice guy... 
<<<

No doubt about it.  Thanks!

Paul B.

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Oct 17, 2008 9:15 pm 
By wolframbane

I just picked up the new Monster-Sized Hulk, whic are stories of Hulk batlting Frankenstein and other assorted beasties. I would like to do that one.

			*	*	*

Oct 18, 2008 9:29 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I was planning to get that comic, but I decided to pass it up after I leafed through it in the store. So your analysis would be most welcome, wolframbane. Thanks!

Paul B.

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Oct 18, 2008 9:54 am 
By Russ Chappell
ADMINISTRATOR

Also understand, wolframbane, that you don't need Paul's permission to submit an analysis. Paul maintains his Call for Analysis list as a method for obtaining analyses for the books that he doesn't read, and uses those analyses for the Calendar posted here. 

But the rest of us here (including Paul, I'm sure) always welcome analyses, even for those books that Paul reads.


watching: gameday

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Oct 18, 2008 2:24 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

To pull two recent examples, I'm analyzing the TWELVE series even though Paul's getting it himself, and I just analyzed X-Men: Original Sin #1, even though Paul's getting it himself. So analyze whatever you want, it can only help! 

-Daron Jensen

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Oct 18, 2008 3:02 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Russ Chappell wrote:
>>>
But the rest of us here (including Paul, I'm sure) always welcome analyses, even for those books that Paul reads.
<<<

So true, so true...

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Subject: X-Men: Original Sin 1

By Col_Fury
Director

X-Men: Original Sin #1
Original Sin prelude
Original Sin Part 1
December, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Daken(Akihiro), Cyclops(Scott Summers), Emma Frost, Professor X, Ms. Sinister(Claudine), Sunfire-FB, Storm-FB, Colossus-FB, Banshee-FB, Thunderbird-FB, Nightcrawler-FB

Synopsis: 
Pg1pn1(of 8): day after W: O 28, same day as X: LEG 216
Wolverine walks down the street. 
Pg1pn2-pg2-FB: GSX 1
The All-New, All-Different X-Men pose on the staircase. 
Pg3pn1-pg3pn3-FB-FB
Xavier and Wolverine chat in Xavier's office the day Wolverine stepped foot in Xavier's mansion. 
Pg3pn4(of 5)-FB: Messiah CompleX
Repeated, nothing new. 
Pg3pn4-pg24pn1: same day as (1:1)
Wolverine drops his kid off with some monks and goes to the X-Men's new place in San Francisco. He's going to ask Emma Frost if she can telepathically help his kid, but he smells Xavier on Cyclops. This is a surprise, because as far as he knew Xavier was dead. Cyclops tries to explain that he only just found out himself earlier in the day, but Wolverine's pissed and hits him. Then he hits Emma. Then he walks off in a huff. Meanwhile, Daken settles in with the monks and is called telepathically to the roof by Ms. Sinister. After a chat Daken leaves. Elsewhere, Wolverine has stumbled across Xavier who's still in town. Wolverine asks him to telepathically deprogram Daken like he did for Wolverine years ago. Meanwhile, Ms. Sinister attacks Daken with napalm, and asks if it reminds him of anything. Elsewhere Xavier declines, but Wolverine makes him read his memories, which comes as a shock to Xavier. 
Pg24pn2-FB: continued from (3:1-3:3)
Wolverine tries to kill Professor X! 

References: 
To be continued in X-Men: Legacy 217!

(3:1-3:3)-FB & (24:2)-FB take place, as Wolverine says "The day I came to the X-Men. The day you(Xavier) let me through the door". Therefore before GSX 3 where Wolverine is already training the new X-Men and of course after GSX 1 (5-6) where the two meet for the first time in Canada. 

(5:4-FB)-FB is a repeat of GSX 1 (15:3), no new information. 

Some FlashBack placement suggestions: 

CYCLOPS II/SCOTT SUMMERS

GSX 1 (18:9 - 19:4)-FB
CX 1 (3:4-4:5)
*X: OS 1-FB
GSX 1 (14-15:2)-OP
CX 1 (17:1)
GSX 1 (15:3-15:4)
CX 1 (17:2)
GSX 1 (15:5 - 20:2)


SUNFIRE/SHIRO YOSHIDA

IM 70
GSX 1 (9 - 13)
GSX 3
*X: OS 1-FB
GSX 1 (14 - 15:2)
CX 1 (17:1)


STORM/ORORO MUNROE

{GSX 1 (1 - 13)}
GSX 3
*X: OS 1-FB
GSX 1 (14 - 15:2)


COLOSSUS III/PETER RASPUTIN

GSX 1 (11:3 - 12:1)
XCAL 107 (8:5)-FB
GSX 3
*X: OS 1-FB
GSX 1 (14 - 15:2)


BANSHEE II/SEAN CASSIDY

GSX 1 (1 - 13)
GSX 3
*X: OS 1-FB
GSX 1 (14 - 15:2)


THUNDERBIRD/JOHN PROUDSTAR 
XFOR -1-FB
XFOR -1-FB
XFOR -1
CX 3/2-FB
{GSX 1 (1 - 13)}
GSX 3
*X: OS 1-FB
GSX 1 (14 - 15:2)


NIGHTCRAWLER/KURT WAGNER

GSX 1 (3:3 - 13:8)
GSX 3
*X: OS 1-FB
GSX 1 (14 - 15:2)


WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT

M/CP 51-FB
W: O 28 (20)-FB
GSX 1 (5:1-5:3)
W: O 28 (21:1-21:4)-FB
GSX 1 (5:4-5:6)
W: O 28 (21:5-22)-FB
GSX 1 (6-13)
AF 52-FB
*X: OS 1 (3:1-3:3)-FB
*X: OS 1 (24:2)-FB
GSX 3
*X: OS 1 (1:2-2)-FB
GSX 1 (14 - 15:2) 


PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER

CX 1 (3:5 - 4:5)
GSX 1 (1 - 4:1)
XCAL 107 (11:4)-FB
GSX 1 (4:2-5:3)
W: O 28 (21:1-21:4)-FB
GSX 1 (5:4-5:6)
W: O 28 (21:5-22)-FB
GSX 1 (6:1-12:1)
UO 9
XCAL 107 (8:5)-FB
GSX 1 (12:2 - 13:8)
*X: OS 1 (3:1-3:3)-FB
*X: OS 1 (24:2)-FB
GSX 3-BTS
*X: OS 1 (2)-FB
GSX 1 (14 - 15:2)


-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 15, 2008 6:12 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Don't forget the flashback in X:MEN: LIBERATORS #2, which I believe would go just before the stair-posing scene in X:OS 1-FB (1:2-2). In X:L 2-FB, Colossus feels ridiculous in his new costume and demonstrates his strength when hassled by Logan.

I don't have any information about GSX 3, though. Care to elaborate?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 15, 2008 12:54 pm 
By wolframbane

>I don't have any information about GSX 3, though. Care to elaborate?

From Uncannyxment.net:

Giant-Size X-Men # 3 
Issue Date: 2005
Wolverine takes the new X-Men into the Danger Room shortly after being recruited by Professor Xavier. While Xavier and Banshee are away, Wolverine tells the group, some of whichs members are still in awe in the changes in their lives, that they are not yet a team and that the Professor knows that one of them will fail. So, in order to unify them as one, they must find out their weak link and kill them. Sunfire and Thunderbird are quick to try and kill Wolverine, while Storm and Colossus do their best not to have this end in bloodshed. Wolverine thinks Nightcrawler is the weak link, but the terrified man does not want to die. While Wolverine battles Thunderbird, Nightcrawler attempts to kill Storm in order to end the feud. Fortunately, before anyone is seriously hurt, Banshee returns at the request of the watching Xavier and ends the fight. Wolverine reveals that the Professor did not order this and that he started it himself in order to show that they must learn to know each other in the thick of battle. His money is on Thunderbird to outlast them all.

This story appears to occur between GSX 1 (19:2-19:3).


There is also:

Giant-Size X-Men # 4 
Issue Date: 2005
The all new, all different X-Men have a training session in the Danger Room, where they watch Storm evade Thunderbird with her powers. However, after that session, the two must fight one another without their powers. Storm is quicker and sneakier than Thunderbird expects, but he recalls his training from his Uncle Jack and eventually bests Storm, who freaks out after being pinned to the ground. Wolverine sees Cyclops not defusing the situation, so he stops the fight before things get out of hand, much to the dislike of Cyclops. Later on, Wolverine speaks to Xavier, who voices his concern that Wolverine may hinder Cyclops development as a leader if he is not loyal to the leader. Wolverine is not sure if Cyclops is the best choice of leader, or if Wolverine is the best choice to aid Scott, but accepts Xaviers wisdom. While Cyclops voices his concern about Wolverine and his own leadership to Jean Grey, Thunderbird sneaks around the mansion and spends time looking around Wolverine and Storms rooms, being reminded of his own past. Xavier speaks to John and about his Uncle Jacks death, and tells the man that he needs him for there are more mutants out there and they are not nice. Even Storm is not sure she is staying. Coming up with an idea that Storm just needs to set her roots, Thunderbird buys her a cactus and leaves her a note.

This story appears to occur between UX 94 (7-8).

			*	*	*

Oct 15, 2008 12:57 pm 
By wolframbane

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Don't forget the flashback in X:MEN: LIBERATORS #2, which I believe would go just before the stair-posing scene in X:OS 1-FB (1:2-2). In X:L 2-FB, Colossus feels ridiculous in his new costume and demonstrates his strength when hassled by Logan.
<<<

Thre is also this scene from X-Men Origins: Colossus #1:
XO:C 1 (30). After recieving his new uniform, Piotr Rasputin (as Colossus) is introduced by Prof X to the new X-Men Storm, Wolverine, Banshee, Nightcrawler, Sunfire and Thunderbird.
Note: This is immediately followed by GSX 1 (13).

			*	*	*

Oct 15, 2008 1:02 pm 
By wolframbane

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
(3:1-3:3)-FB & (24:2)-FB take place, as Wolverine says "The day I came to the X-Men. The day you(Xavier) let me through the door". Therefore before GSX 3 where Wolverine is already training the new X-Men and of course after GSX 1 (5-6) where the two meet for the first time in Canada. 
<<<

Apparently the two met one before while Xavier was fighting in Korea. Charles, Logan and Kitty's father were all in the same unit together. Charles Xavier, now the rank of US Army captain, uses the callsign of 'Good Shepherd' during Combat Search and Rescue (CSAR) missions. His platoon includes a Canadian soldier named Logan. They have saved each others' lives, but he does not consider Logan a friend. Logan introduces Charles to US Marine Carmen Pryde, a helicopter pilot. Carmen and Charles become close friends, and both are near the end of their tours of duty. This was in XCAL3 14.

			*	*	*

Oct 15, 2008 3:03 pm 
By jephyork
Director

And although it could be argued that that's a false/flawed memory, given the wacky storytelling devices that XCAL3 14 employs, it's backed up in GSX 4 -- when Thunderbird sees a photo of Charles, Carmen and Logan together in the barracks.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Oct 15, 2008 4:08 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
From Uncannyxment.net:

Giant-Size X-Men # 3 
...
This story appears to occur between GSX 1 (19:2-19:3).
<<<

It's listed in the Project as before the staircase scene, after Xavier recruits everyone. My analysis of GSX 3 & GSX 4 have both fallen into the archives, for anyone interested. 

I'll have to dig out X-Men: Liberators and check out wolframbane's anaylsis to XO: C. Thanks for the tip, guys!

And good points on XCAL3 14 & GSX 4.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 16, 2008 6:03 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I think it would be a big help if someone would list all these scenes (with brief plot synopses) in chronological order when we have everything reconciled.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 16, 2008 12:54 pm 
By wolframbane

Well after all these new revelations have settled. I was thinking about sitting down and hammering out a definitive sequence of events covering the rather complicated period between just before GSX 1 to UX 94 (including the retcons from X:DG), into a period which the X-Men Index places as 15 months long.

			*	*	*

Oct 17, 2008 3:41 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
...into a period which the X-Men Index places as 15 months long.
<<<

15 months!  Wow...


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
I think it would be a big help if someone would list all these scenes (with brief plot synopses) in chronological order when we have everything reconciled.
<<<

Hmmnn...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 17, 2008 4:17 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
wolframbane wrote:
>>>
...into a period which the X-Men Index places as 15 months long.
<<<

15 months!  Wow...
<<<

And we wonder how Paul B manages to get up to "24 years"...

			*	*	*

Oct 17, 2008 9:13 pm 
By wolframbane

And I believe the Avengers Index has a period where they were disbanded for almost a year, just before Beast joined.

			*	*	*

Oct 18, 2008 8:58 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
And I believe the Avengers Index has a period where they were disbanded for almost a year, just before Beast joined.
<<<

According to the Index, A 137 takes more than eight months to occur. And there was a notceable gap of six months between A 100 and A 101, too. Yup, 24 years indeed! 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 18, 2008 6:23 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
I think it would be a big help if someone would list all these scenes (with brief plot synopses) in chronological order when we have everything reconciled.
<<<

Thanks for bringing this up, Paul. It reminded me that I wanted to look at that period and afterwards for a while now, so I finally got around to Overhauling GSX & CX, and I included Original Sin and other recent things. 

Thanks!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 19, 2008 12:59 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks to you, Fury, for posting that chronology of GSX/CX etc. I look forward to your additional notes about X 94 and related scenes. Very helpful indeed! 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Subject: Punisher MAX 56-60

Oct 08, 2008 3:34 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Punisher v7 #55
Punisher v7 #56
June, 2008

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Col. George Howe, Lt. Geller, 8 Army & Air Force officials, Col. Nick Fury-OP

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2pn2-FB: Vietnam, late summer of 1969
A young George Howe has been captured by the Viet Cong, he being held in a bamboo cage in Lao surrounded by the severed hands and feet of his platoon-mates. 
Pg2pn3-pg2pn4(of 4): day after end of last issue
Col. Howe and Lt. Geller chat. 
Pg3-pg5pn1(of 4)-FB: Vietnam, late summer of 1969
A Special Forces unit frees George Howe, Frank Castle is one of the men in the unit. This experience convinces Howe to join Special Forces himself, and will serve his next two tours with the Green Berets. 
Pg5pn2-pg7: same day as (2:3-2:4)
Col. Howe introduces Lt. Geller to his Punisher Task Force. 
Pg8-pg9
An excerpt from the new book Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher.
Pg10: same day as (5:2-7)
The 8 Army & Air Force officials chat, the plans in place and everyones heading to New York. 
Pg11-pg13: some days after (10)
Howes Task Force investigates a recent Punisher attack. 
Pg14-pg15
An excerpt from the new book Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher.
Pg16-pg22: some days after (11-13)
Howes Task Force are staking out areas of recent Punisher activity when the Punisher appears and asks them what theyre doing. After a quick skirmish the Punisher escapes, but not before a tracer is placed on him. 

References: 
Sometime between pg10 & pg11 the Punisher blows up a night club. This happened the night after the Task Force arrived in New York. By pg16-pg22, the Punisher mentions that he was staking the night club out to prepare his attack last week. I would think they would arrive in New York shortly after deciding to leave, maybe a day or two? Also for some reason, I would like to say the night club blew up on a Friday. So we have: 

(10) Lets go to New York!

-BTS- Punisher stakes out a night club

-BTS- Task Force arrives in New York; Thursday

-BTS- Next day, Punisher blows up a night club; Friday

(11-13) Next day? Investigate the scene. Saturday?

(16-22) A few days later? Punisher mentions he staked out the night club last week. Tuesday? 

Essentially, there is a gap in time but not enough for the Punisher to appear anywhere else during this issue, or between this issue and last. 

Punisher v7 #57
July, 2008

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Col. George Howe, Lt. Geller, 8 Army & Air Force officials, Col. Nick Fury-OP

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8: day after end of last issue
The Task Force follow the tracer and attack the Punisher, but hes ready and waiting for them. He fights them off but doesnt kill any of them. 
Pg9-pg10
An excerpt from the new book Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher.
Pg11-pg16: same day as (1-8)
Col. Howe is told by his Task Force about how thoroughly The Punisher handed them their asses. The 8 Army & Air Force officials arrive and yell at Col. Howe for not catching the Punisher, but theyre interrupted when the tracer on the Punisher is reactivated. Meanwhile, the Punisher watches the news in a bar while he plays with the tracer. 
Pg17-pg18
An excerpt from the new book Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher.
Pg19-pg22: same day as (11-16)
The Task Force follows the signal to a cemetery, where the Punisher is waiting with a mountain of explosives. He wants to talk to the man in charge.(Col. Howe)

Punisher v7 #58
August, 2008

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Col. George Howe, Lt. Geller, 8 Army & Air Force officials, Col. Nick Fury-OP

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6: same night as last issue
Col. Howe arrives and talks with the Punisher. After both sides make their intentions known, the Punisher sets off his explosives. 
Pg7-pg12
An excerpt from the new book Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher.
Pg13-pg22: same night as (1-6)
The explosives turn out to be flash and smoke, but the Punisher isnt able to escape. Hes captured and retained by the Task Force. Col. Howe calls the General of the 8 Army & Air Force officials to tell him he has the Punisher, but is yelled at for not getting the tape the Punisher has. Col. Howe then goes in to talk to the Punisher about the tape. 

References: 
There are photographs in this excerpt from the book Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher, one is of Frank Castle in 1971, cleaning his rifle. 

Punisher v7 #59
September, 2008

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Col. George Howe, Lt. Geller, 8 Army & Air Force officials, Col. Nick Fury-OP, William Rawlins-FB, Kathryn OBrien-FB-VO, Punisher-FB-OP

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4: same night as last issue
Col. Howe retrieves the tape from a locker, the Punisher told him where it was but Col. Howe is sure that its just a copy. 
Pg5-pg6
An excerpt from the new book Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher.
Pg7-pg10: same night as (1-4)
Col. Howe starts to watch the tape of Rawlins confession, which can ruin the 8 Army & Air Force officials. 
Pg11-pg17: next day
The 8 Army & Air Force officials discuss Col. Howe and his possible reasons for not turning the Punisher and his tape over to them and decide to take matters into their own hands. Meanwhile, Col. Howe dismisses his Task Force and tells them to take Lt. Geller with them. Afterwards, he watches the tape again, this time taking notes. 
Pg18-pg20
An excerpt from the new book Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher.
Pg21-pg22: same day as (11-17)
After making a few calls, Col. Howe informs the Punisher that he wont be acting on his tape; it would result in a national outrage and he cant have that. The Punisher, not very happy, asks where that leaves them

References: 
Rawlins confession was videotaped by the Punisher between pages 16 & 17 of issue 23 of the current volume. Rawlins appears on the tape, OBriens voice is heard, and the Punisher is working the camera. Also, Rawlins finally has a first name: William. 

Col. Howe mentions that he and his Task Force usually meet on Mondays. 

Punisher v7 #60
October, 2008

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Col. George Howe, Lt. Geller, 8 Army & Air Force officials, Col. Nick Fury

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: same day as end of last issue
Col. Howe gives the Punisher a gun with eight bullets and thanks him for what hes about to do. 
Pg4-pg5
An excerpt from the new book Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher.
Pg6-pg22: same day as (1-3)
Col. Howe greets the 8 Army & Air Force officials as they approach, he tells them hes washed his hands of their deal and leaves. Meanwhile, Lt. Geller tries to call to let them know something hes figured out; Col. Howe was rescued by Frank Castle in Vietnam. Elsewhere, Nick Fury finishes reading Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher. Afterwards, Frank Castle walks away from the bodies of the 8 Army & Air Force officials hes just killed. 

References: 
There are some FlashBacks that repeat information from PUN7 56, no new information.(same dialogue, different camera angles)

Its revealed that Nick Fury has been reading Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher during these six issues. He starts in issue 55 and finishes in issue 60. Because we see the pages hes reading throughout these issues, Ive opted to give him Off Panel designations for each of these issues. 

Placements for the FlashBacks: 

PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE"

PBSS 3-FB 
*PUN7 56-FB
PWJ 4-FB
PUN4 3-FB 
*PUN7 58-FB(photograph)
BORN 1

PUN7 23 (1-16)
*PUN7 59-FB-OP(recording)
PUN7 23 (17-22)


RAWLINS, WILLIAM

PUN7 23 (1-16)
*PUN7 59-FB(recording)
PUN7 23 (17-22)


OBRIEN, KATHRYN

PUN7 23 (1-16)
*PUN7 59-FB-VO(recording)
PUN7 23 (17-22)


And a breakdown of the current stuff: 

PUN7 55 (1-7): one day, Saturday, not long after PUN7 54
PUN7 55 (8-22): next day, Sunday
PUN7 56 (2:3-2:4): next day, Monday
PUN7 56 (5:2-10): same day, Monday
PUN7 56 (11-13): Saturday
PUN7 56 (14-22): Tuesday
PUN7 57: Wednesday
PUN7 58: Wednesday
PUN7 59 (1-10): Wednesday
PUN7 59 (11-22): Thursday
PUN7 60: Thursday

First, apologies to Paul B...

Ive been thinking about Somebodys suggestion of putting all of the current Punisher War Journal issues after the end of Ennis run, because of the difference in tone of the two books is that do-able? Because I kind of like that idea. Were already ignoring a lot of the references to the passage of time in this volume, we would just have to tighten it up a bit more. That would mean this batch of issues would predate Civil War would that work? We would end up with whatever through PUN7 60,(including the various one-shots in between those issues, like Bloody Valentine, Force of Nature, Silent Night, etc, and even the Punisher vs Bullseye mini could stay mixed up in there) then Civil War, more of PWJ2, World War Hulk, more PWJ2, then Secret Invasion, and then PUN7 61 through whatever, and eventually Punisher War Zone v2. 

Thoughts?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 11, 2008 12:48 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
*PUN7 59-FB(recording)
<<<

Colonel, do you have a page:panel citation for this recording? 


Col_Fury wote:
>>>
Ive been thinking about Somebodys suggestion of putting all of the current Punisher War Journal issues after the end of Ennis run, because of the difference in tone of the two books is that do-able? Because I kind of like that idea. Were already ignoring a lot of the references to the passage of time in this volume, we would just have to tighten it up a bit more. That would mean this batch of issues would predate Civil War would that work? We would end up with whatever through PUN7 60,(including the various one-shots in between those issues, like Bloody Valentine, Force of Nature, Silent Night, etc, and even the Punisher vs Bullseye mini could stay mixed up in there) then Civil War, more of PWJ2, World War Hulk, more PWJ2, then Secret Invasion, and then PUN7 61 through whatever, and eventually Punisher War Zone v2. 
<<<

We have no plot-based clues to place this whole run of PUN7 before Civil War. Wouldn't this suggestion violate the "rule" that we consider publication order as a factor in determining chronology in the absence of such clues? I don't believe we've ever considered "tone" as a piece of evidence for organizing chronologies before.

I haven't read PWJ2 18-23, though, so maybe there are other clues there? Could someone supply an analysis of those books?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 11, 2008 4:08 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
*PUN7 59-FB(recording)
<<<

Colonel, do you have a page:panel citation for this recording? 
<<<

(7-10)


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
We have no plot-based clues to place this whole run of PUN7 before Civil War.
<<<

It was your comment here(and Somebody's response to it, of course) that got me thinking about it: 

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
The thing with PWJ2 is that Castle hangs with Stuart Clarke throughout this series(PWJ2) and there seems to be no mention of Clarke in PUN7.
<<<

You're half right in that there 'seems to be no mention of Clarke in PUN7', because there is NO mention of him at all in PUN7. Now of course, lack of evidence of Stuart Clarke in PUN7 can't be used as evidence that there is no Stuart Clarke during PUN7. 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Wouldn't this suggestion violate the "rule" that we consider publication order as a factor in determining chronology in the absence of such clues?
<<<

As far as publication order goes, we're only looking at two story arcs. Sure, it's a year and a half worth of issues, but PUN7 43-49 & PUN7 50-60 are really two arcs. PUN7 43-49 lasts about a week, and PUN7 50-60 lasts about, what, about a month and a half? Besides, PUN7 43-49 & PUN7 50-60 ties up all of the plot threads from throughout the series. PWJ2 starts it's own series of events and subplots, including Clarke, which builds up from issue one and culminates with Secret Invasion. If it's workable, I'm suggesting putting these two PUN7 arcs before the start of PWJ2 so Ennis' run is finished before Fraction's run begins. Doing this would solve the wierdness of Clarke, and help to alleviate Fury appearing in PUN7 when he's supposed to be in hiding. I can almost see Fury going out for drinks with Frank(in PUN7 55-60) before Civil War, but after WWH? While he's training his recruits? 

So while they may not be concrete evidence, I'm saying that Clarke & Fury suggest pre-Civil War placement for PUN7 43-60.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
I haven't read PWJ2 18-23, though, so maybe there are other clues there? Could someone supply an analysis of those books?
<<<

I'll see if I can get this up tonight. Essentially though, the Punisher ends up in prison, which is where he is when the Skrulls attack in PWJ2 24.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 14, 2008 9:42 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Speaking in terms of the Calendar, this is what we roughly have currently: 

December 21, year 22  January 2, year 23
Punisher: Red X-Mas
May 9  May 17, year 23
Punisher v7 13-18
July 5 - August 13, year 23
Punisher v7 19-30
August 15  September 9, year 23
Daredevil vs Punisher 1-6
September 12  September 26, year 23
Punisher vs Bullseye 1-5
November 3  November 6, year 23
Punisher: Bloody Valentine
November 16  November 19, year 23
Punisher v7 31-36
November 22-November 26, year 23
Daredevil v2 84-87
December 5  December 18, year 23
Punisher v7 37-42
December 24  December 25, year 23
Punisher: Silent Night 
December 25  December 26, year 23
Punisher: X-Mas Special
December, year 23  March, year 24
PWJ2 1-3 & Civil War
March 25  March 31, year 24
Punisher v7 43-49
April 1  April 5, year 24
BARRACUDA 1-5
April 8, year 24 
Punisher Annual 
April 9-
PUN7 50-
Unplaced: 
Force of Nature
Little Black Book

BUT, if we moved Punisher v7 13-18 earlier to January or February from May, that would give us 6 or 7 months to play with, like so: 

December 21, year 22  January 2, year 23
Punisher: Red X-Mas

Punisher v7 13-18 (9 days)
Punisher v7 19-30 (6 weeks)
Punisher v7 31-36 (4 days)
Punisher v7 37-42 (2 weeks)
Punisher v7 43-49 (1 week)

August 15  September 9, year 23
Daredevil vs Punisher 1-6
September 12  September 26, year 23
Punisher vs Bullseye 1-5

Barracuda 1-5 (4 days, possibly overlapped with PUNVBULL)

September 30  November 15, give or take, maybe?
Punisher v7 50-60 (6 weeks, give or take)

November 22-November 26, year 23
Daredevil v2 84-87

Bloody Valentine (3 days)
Annual (1 night)
Force of Nature (about a week)
Little Black Book (1 night)

December 24  December 25, year 23
Punisher: Silent Night 
December 25  December 26, year 23
Punisher: X-Mas Special
December, year 23  March, year 24
PWJ2 1-3 & Civil War

This would push all the one-shot specials together, but I can live with that. Theyre largely inconsequential, and can go practically anywhere. It would also leave the nine months that Susperia needs to learn to walk again intact AND give a few more weeks than she has at the moment. 

Daredevils book doesnt really leave a lot of wiggle room, so Ill suggest leaving DDVPUN & PUNVBULL where they are. 

This would also adjust for Furys chronology, so he can have drinks with Frank before the Registration Act passes and Civil War happens. If PUN7 55-60 ends up in mid-November, this is also around the time of that New Avengers giveaway issue, where Fury calls Avengers Tower even though hes in hiding, keeping these public appearances together. 

Thoughts?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 14, 2008 7:00 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for going to this trouble, Fury. I may not have a chance to look this over until this weekend, what with new comics coming and that whole Original Sin stuff to ponder. More later...

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 19, 2008 1:21 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Fury's the tough part of this chronology (not you, Col_Fury, the "real" Nick  ). If I move PUN7 13 earlier, then I also need to push SECRET WAR earlier, because PUN7 13 occurs after Fury loses his position as SHIELD director. And moving SECWAR has major implications for the rest of the MU.

Now SECWAR is bound up in all the major reorganization I need to consider as a result of recent revelations about chronology in SECRET INVASION flashbacks. I'll need to keep the relationship of PUN7 and SECWAR in mind as these reorganizations are planned. Who knows? Maybe the calendar placement of Punisher appearances might work out as a result...

For now, I have temporary placements for various Punisher stories on my working copy of the calendar so I don't forget them when I rearrange stuff -- a good post-SECWAR project for me that undouvtedly will postpone any update of the posted Calendar.  

But if bunching nearly forty issues of PUN7 together in a character chronology is feasible, would folks go along with that approach, publication order be hanged?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 19, 2008 5:28 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
But if bunching nearly forty issues of PUN7 together in a character chronology is feasible, would folks go along with that approach, publication order be hanged?
<<<

Certainly (although, since I'm the guy that proposed that in the first place, that may be slightly obvious ). When it's feasible and the series aren't interlinked, I would always bundle series (especially ones as different as PUN7 & PUN:WJ2) as "A, B, C" rather than an "A1, B1, A2, C1, B2, C2"-typed arrangement. Always keep an eye on the best reading order for these things where there's more than one chronological option.

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Subject: Wolverine: Origins 26-28

Oct 13, 2008 6:44 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine: Origins #26
August, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Daken(Akihiro), Romulus-FB

Synopsis: 
Pg1: California, 1943
During WWII, Logan takes some prisoners from a Japanese-American Internment camp to be experimented on. 
Pg2-pg3pn1: now, same night as last issue
Wolverine carries the unconscious Daken. 
Pg3pn2-pg5-FB: California, 1943
Logan oversees the experiments conducted on Japanese-Americans for a few days, and when the experiments are over he kills the staff and detonates the lab, which is hidden in a cave. 
Pg6: now, same night
Wolverine has brought Daken to the same cave where he oversaw experiments during WWII. 
Pg7-pg8-FB: infant Daken
The infant Daken is dropped off by Romulus at a home in Japan. The family takes him in and names him Akihiro. 
Pg9-pg13-FB: nine years later
Akihiro is taunted by the other children, who call him Daken, an insult. His adoptive mother is afraid of the anger inside of him. 
Pg14-pg19-FB: one year later
Daken kills his adoptive parents and their child. Hes then greeted by Romulus. 
Pg20-pg22: now, same night
Wolverine is attacked by mutated Japanese-Americans, the results of the experiments he oversaw during WWII. 

References: 
*Sigh* Ignore that 1946 for the year of Dakens birth. His mother Itsu was killed by the Winter Soldier, thats not even possible until 1956 

This is continued directly from W: O 21-25, and takes place on the same night as the end of that. Daken had just been shot in the head, and Wolverine needs to get Daken out of the city before he wakes up. So no appearances for Wolverine elsewhere between last issue and this one. 

Wolverine: Origins #27
September, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Daken(Akihiro), Romulus-FB, Cyber-FB

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: now, same day as last issue
The experiment victims have tied up Wolverine. 
Pg6-FB: same day as W: O 26 (14-19)-FB
Romulus chats with Daken. 
Pg7-pg16-FB: shortly afterwards
Daken is trained by Cyber, Hudon's secretary tells him she's pregnant. 9 months later Daken kills Hudson. 
Pg17: now, same day
Wolverine chats with the experiment victims. 
Pg18-pg19-FB: 1977
After a mission in Afganistan, Daken chats with Romulus. 
Pg20-pg22: now, same day
Daken wakes up and kills the experiment victims. 

References: 
There are a couple of remembrance FlashBacks to Wolverines past, but theres no new information in them. 

Wolverine: Origins #28
November, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Daken(Akihiro), Hulk-FB, Wendigo-FB, Professor X-FB, Romulus-FB-BTS

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7: now, same night as last issue
Wolverine calms Daken down and convinces him to follow him. They steal a car, and Wolverine starts driving to the X-Mens place. 
Pg8-pg19-FB: Hulk 180-182
On his last mission for Romulus, Wolverine is dropped out of a helicopter and fights the Hulk and Wendigo. Wolverine helps the Hulk defeats Wendigo, then turns on the Hulk. Hulks not pleased, so he beats the tar out of Wolverine. The Hulk is gassed and captured, but soon wakes up and escapes. 
Pg20-pg22-FB: Giant-Size X-Men 1
Wolverine is called in to see a visitor for him, who turns out to be Professor X. 

References: 
Continued directly from last issue, to be continued directly into X-Men: Original Sin #1!

Oddly, the last two issues Wolverine was in his brown suit. Suddenly! Hes in his Astonishing suit this issue, with no time to change. Change in artist or cosmic occurrence? U-Decide!

Some placement suggestions for the FlashBacks: 

DAKEN/AKIHIRO
W: O 5-FB
*W: O 26-FB
*W: O 27 (6)-FB
W: O 15 (14:3)-FB
*W: O 27 (7)-FB
W: O 15 (14:5)-FB
*W: O 27 (8-16)-FB
*W: O 27 (18-19)-FB
W: O 4-BTS 
W: O 6


ROMULUS 
W3 50-FB 
W3 51-FB 
W3 52 (1-5)-FB 
W3 53 (1-5)-FB 
W: O 15 (12)-FB-BTS 
W: O @1-FB-BTS 
W3 52 (17-20)-FB 
W3 53 (19-20)-FB 
W3 54 (1-5)-FB (1942) 
W3 40-FB-BTS 
W: O 5 (7)-FB 
*W: O 26 (7-8)-FB
W: O 9-FB-BTS 
W: O 5 (9)-FB 
W: O 5 (13-14)-FB-BTS 
*W: O 26 (14-19)-FB
*W: O 27 (6)-FB
W: O 15 (14:3)-FB 
*W: O 27 (7-16)-FB
W3 54 (17-19)-FB 
*W: O 28-FB-BTS
*W: O 27 (18-19)-FB
W: O 2-VO 
W: O 3-BTS 


CYBER/SILAS BURR
W: O 14 (15:4-20)-FB 
W: O 15 (8-10)-FB (1912) 
W: O 12 (10)-FB 
W: O 15 (12)-FB 
W: O 12 (11)-FB 
W: O 15 (14:3)-FB
*W: O 27 (7)-FB
W: O 15 (14:5)-FB 
*W: O 27 (8-16)-FB
M/CP 85 
M/CP 86


HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER

H2 179
GSSS 1
M/CP 59/1-FB
H2 180 (1-18:3)
*W: O 28 (9-10)-FB
H2 180 (18:4-18:5)
H2 181 (1-2:1)
*W: O 28 (11:1-11:2)-FB
H2 181(2:2-2:4)
*W: O 28 (11:3-11:4)-FB
H2 181 (2:5)
*W: O 28 (11:5-12:2)-FB
H2 181 (3:1)
*W: O 28 (12:3-12:5)-FB
H2 181 (3:2-3:5)
*W: O 28 (12:6-13:1)-FB
H2 181 (3:6-4:1)
*W: O 28 (13:2-13:3)-FB
H2 181 (4:2)
*W: O 28 (13:4-13:6)-FB
H2 181 (4:3-4:4)
*W: O 28 (13:7-14:1)-FB
H2 181 (4:5-5:1)
*W: O 28 (14:2-14:3)-FB
H2 181 (5:2)
*W: O 181 (14:4-14:5)-FB
H2 181 (6:1-6:3)
*W: O 28 (15)-FB
H2 181 (6:4-15:5)
*W: O 28 (16:1-16:2)-FB
H2 181 (16:1-16:2)
*W: O (16:3-17:1)-FB
H2 181 (16:3-18:7) 
H2 182 (1:1)
*W: O 28 (18:1-18:2)-FB
H2 182 (1:2-2:4)
*W: O 28 (18:3-18:4)-FB
H2 182 (2:5-2:7)
*W: O 28 (18:5-19:5)-FB
H2 182 (3:1-3:4)
*W: O 28 (19:5-19:9)-FB
H2 182 (3:5-17)
H2 183


WENDIGO/PAUL CARTIER 
MU 9/3-FB
{H2 162}
H2 180 (1-18:3)
*W: O 28 (9-10)-FB
H2 180 (18:4-18:5)
H2 181 (1-2:1)
*W: O 28 (11:1-11:2)-FB
H2 181(2:2-2:4)
*W: O 28 (11:3-11:4)-FB
H2 181 (2:5)
*W: O 28 (11:5-12:2)-FB
H2 181 (3:1)
*W: O 28 (12:3-12:5)-FB
H2 181 (3:2-3:5)
*W: O 28 (12:6-13:1)-FB
H2 181 (3:6-4:1)
*W: O 28 (13:2-13:3)-FB
H2 181 (4:2)
*W: O 28 (13:4-13:6)-FB
H2 181 (4:3-4:4)
*W: O 28 (13:7-14:1)-FB
H2 181 (4:5-5:1)
*W: O 28 (14:2-14:3)-FB
H2 181 (5:2)
*W: O 181 (14:4-14:5)-FB
H2 181 (6:1-6:3)
*W: O 28 (15)-FB
H2 181 (6:4-18:7)

WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT

IHM: MMH 1-FB (1943)
*W: O 26-FB (1943)
W2 34 (8:2-8:3)-FB (06/06/44)

W '97-FB
W2 144 (1-19)-FB 
*W: O 28 (8-10)-FB
{H2 180}
H2 181 (1-2:1)
*W: O 28 (11:1-11:2)-FB
H2 181(2:2-2:4)
*W: O 28 (11:3-11:4)-FB
H2 181 (2:5)
*W: O 28 (11:5-12:2)-FB
H2 181 (3:1)
*W: O 28 (12:3-12:5)-FB
H2 181 (3:2-3:5)
*W: O 28 (12:6-13:1)-FB
H2 181 (3:6-4:1)
*W: O 28 (13:2-13:3)-FB
H2 181 (4:2)
*W: O 28 (13:4-13:6)-FB
H2 181 (4:3-4:4)
*W: O 28 (13:7-14:1)-FB
H2 181 (4:5-5:1)
*W: O 28 (14:2-14:3)-FB
H2 181 (5:2)
*W: O 181 (14:4-14:5)-FB
H2 181 (6:1-6:3)
*W: O 28 (15)-FB
H2 181 (6:4-15:5)
*W: O 28 (16:1-16:2)-FB
H2 181 (16:1-16:2)
*W: O (16:3-17:1)-FB
H2 181 (16:3-18:7) 
H2 182 (1:1)
*W: O 28 (18:1-18:2)-FB
H2 182 (1:2-2:4)
*W: O 28 (18:3-18:4)-FB
H2 182 (2:5-2:7)
*W: O 28 (18:5-19:5)-FB
H2 182 (3:1-3:4)
*W: O 28 (19:5-19:9)-FB
H2 182 (3:5-17)
SM&W 2 (1-3)-FB 
AF 9/2
M/CP 51-FB
*W: O 28 (20)-FB
GSX 1 (5:1-5:3)
*W: O 28 (21:1-21:4)-FB
GSX 1 (5:4-5:6)
*W: O 28 (21:5-22)-FB
GSX 1 (6-13)
AF 52-FB
GSX 3
GSX 1 (14 - 15:2) 


PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER

CX 1 (3:5 - 4:5)
GSX 1 (1 - 4:1)
XCAL 107 (11:4)-FB
GSX 1 (4:2-5:3)
*W: O 28 (21:1-21:4)-FB
GSX 1 (5:4-5:6)
*W: O 28 (21:5-22)-FB
GSX 1 (6:1-12:1)
UO 9


For the Current Day stuff, W: O 21-28 all occur in one day, and X-Men: Original Sin #1 is the next day. Daken is shot in the head, and Wolverine is trying to get him to the X-Men before Dakens healing factor could possibly give him his memories back. Theres nowhere to splice any time jumps in there. Luckily, these issues take place in and around San Francisco. 

Also, X-Men: Original Sin #1 takes place the same day as X-Men: Legacy 216. This places W: O 21-28 most likely between Uncanny X-Men 499 & 500, where the X-Men move to San Francisco. 

Also, this batch of issues have to occur after Cable/Deadpool #50, as pointed out elsewhere. Additionally, this batch of issues must take place before the new volume of Deadpool #1 thanks to Deapools status quo, and therefore before Secret Invasion. 

So were looking at after Uncanny 499 and before Secret Invasion. How does that line up for Winter Soldier/New Cap in W: O 25? 

Request Time!

I have (reprints of) Hulk 180 & 181, but I dont have anything for Hulk 182.(as far as I can see, Hulk 182 hasn't been reprinted anywhere. Strange) I have been able to find descriptions of the issue, but its not enough. Ive only been able to find a scan of the first page of Hulk 182,(on a blog someplace) but I need a little bit more than that to weave Hulk 182 and W: O 28-FB together. 

Im really only looking for a semi-detailed description of the first few pages of Hulk 182, up to the point where the Hulk escapes from the net/cage/thing after hes gassed. If a scan of the pages were somehow involved that would be awesome, but a page/panel breakdown Im sure would suffice, with a possible few questions from me afterwards. If someone were to have both Hulk 182 & Wolverine: Origins 28, then any weaving suggestions would also be awesome. 

Thanks!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 13, 2008 7:35 pm 
By wolframbane

Your best bet, the Hulk DVD-Rom, which reprints everything from the past 40 years.

			*	*	*

Oct 13, 2008 7:42 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
For the Current Day stuff, W: O 21-28 all occur in one day, and X-Men: Original Sin #1 is the next day. Daken is shot in the head, and Wolverine is trying to get him to the X-Men before Dakens healing factor could possibly give him his memories back. Theres nowhere to splice any time jumps in there. Luckily, these issues take place in and around San Francisco. 

Also, X-Men: Original Sin #1 takes place the same day as X-Men: Legacy 216. This places W: O 21-28 after Uncanny X-Men 500, where the X-Men move to San Francisco. 

Also, this batch of issues have to occur after Cable/Deadpool #50, as pointed out elsewhere. Additionally, this batch of issues must take place before the new volume of Deadpool #1 thanks to Deapools status quo, and therefore before Secret Invasion. 

So were looking at after Uncanny 500 and before Secret Invasion. How does that line up for Winter Soldier/New Cap in W: O 25?
Winter Soldier means pre-Cap #34 - I think we discussed last time that Bucky's appearance must be between Cap #33 (where he makes his peace with Iron Man) and #34 (where he suits up as New Cap for the first time - YAP 1 also falls in the same gap). I'm pretty sure C/DP 49-50 takes place after MCX, but not by how much.

As for the X-books, there's a HUMONGOUS gap there between Messiah CompleX and San Francisco, with SI falling after UX 500 per SI:X (X-Factor jumped five months between the end of MCX and SI, and the other books have been broadly consistent with that; with X-Force and the Manifest Destiny anthology mini the only ones still taking place before UX 500 now).

Essentially, you've got Messiah CompleX shoved up as close to WWH as possible from one end (thanks to WWH:X, with ASTX3 13-24 & GSASTX 1 between the two), and then UX 500 shoved up as close to SI as possible at the other (mutants are still arriving in SF to join up during SI:X from the telepathic call in UX 500). 

Meanwhile, Cap hasn't reached Secret Invasion yet, and probably won't until after the three-part story starting in Cap #43 (there's no tie-in arc, and #46 will be the first arc to be published post-SI). And time passes during CA5 34-42, while the events of the arc (with riots in the Marvel US) might make it tricky to put stuff directly against it.

I'm struggling to reconcile all of the above - I really don't want Bucky to appear in Winter Soldier costuming after Cap #34, let ALONE after #42, but I think that might have to give, and he'd appear either between #42 and #43 or (the yet-to-be-published) #45 and #46...

PS:

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s160/antmanvillains/Hulk182-01.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s160/antmanvillains/Hulk182-02.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s160/antmanvillains/Hulk182-03.jpg

			*	*	*

Oct 13, 2008 7:49 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Sweet! Dude, you're awesome.(and thanks for the tip, wolframbane) 

I'm running out the door at the moment, but I'll get back to this tonight. 

Thanks again!

-edit-

I've fixed the placement suggestions above, thanks again Somebody! 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Winter Soldier means pre-Cap #34 - I think we discussed last time that Bucky's appearance must be between Cap #33 (where he makes his peace with Iron Man) and #34 (where he suits up as New Cap for the first time - YAP 1 also falls in the same gap). 
<<<

AGREED. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
As for the X-books, there's a HUMONGOUS gap there between Messiah CompleX and San Francisco, with SI falling after UX 500 per SI:X (X-Factor jumped five months between the end of MCX and SI, and the other books have been broadly consistent with that; with X-Force and the Manifest Destiny anthology mini the only ones still taking place before UX 500 now).

Essentially, you've got Messiah CompleX shoved up as close to WWH as possible from one end (thanks to WWH:X, with ASTX3 13-24 & GSASTX 1 between the two), and then UX 500 shoved up as close to SI as possible at the other (mutants are still arriving in SF to join up during SI:X from the telepathic call in UX 500). 
<<<

Yeah, that's right... mutants ARE still arriving in SI:X. Well, Uncanny 500 is the reveal to the Mayor and they're still setting up, but there's nothing saying they haven't been there a while. So I guess the Original Sin crossover(and therefore W: O 21-28 & X-Men: Legacy 215 & 216) can go between Uncanny 499 & 500, if only to give it some breathing room.(I've edited my notes above to reflect this) 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Meanwhile, Cap hasn't reached Secret Invasion yet, and probably won't until after the three-part story starting in Cap #43 (there's no tie-in arc, and #46 will be the first arc to be published post-SI). And time passes during CA5 34-42, while the events of the arc (with riots in the Marvel US) might make it tricky to put stuff directly against it.

I'm struggling to reconcile all of the above - I really don't want Bucky to appear in Winter Soldier costuming after Cap #34, let ALONE after #42, but I think that might have to give, and he'd appear either between #42 and #43 or (the yet-to-be-published) #45 and #46...
<<<

AGREED. However, if the need is there, maybe he switched back to his Winter Soldier suit because he's not doing "Cap-like-activities"? I don't like it, but I guess the option is there...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 14, 2008 10:07 am 
By dimadick

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Pg8-pg19-FB: Hulk 180-182
On his last mission for Romulus, Wolverine is dropped out of a helicopter and fights the Hulk and Wendigo. Wolverine helps the Hulk defeats Wendigo, then turns on the Hulk. Hulks not pleased, so he beats the tar out of Wolverine. The Hulk is gassed and captured, but soon wakes up and escapes. 
Pg20-pg22-FB: Giant-Size X-Men 1
Wolverine is called in to see a visitor for him, who turns out to be Professor X.
<<<

You might want to check how this fits with "Wolverine First Class" #5 (September, 2008) which also covers what was going on with Wolverine just before Professor X contacted him for the first time. More specifically still serving with the Flight but disillusioned after founding out that the mutations of both Wolverine himself and Weapon Y/Citadel were either brought about by operations of the Canadian government or the government was aware of it. "The government he trusted and that gave him a reason to live could be behind it - or was refusing to tell him who was, which Wolverine decides is just as bad. "

He had also been informed by Shaman/Michael Twouyoungmen that his bestial rages and memory loss could be symptoms of long-term adamantium poisoning. The same poisoning that was killing Citadel. "Wolverine feels like he has just been pushed off a cliff - the same unbreakable claws and skeleton that had saved him more times than he cared to remember were actually trying to kill him."

Wolverine decides that playing the "good soldier" does not seem a good option any more. Then "Wolverine arrives at Kinneys office, as Kinney had arranged a meeting with the two of them and some braniac from America who might be advising Department H on the recruitment of mutants - Charles Xavier. That is the moment Xavier made the pitch for Wolverine to join the X-Men. Somehow, he knew Id be in the mood to listen. Of course, Kinney wasnt too thrilled to hear Wolverine was joining the private sector - too bad though, and Wolverine sliced his tie as he severed his own ties with Department H - at least for now."

			*	*	*

Oct 22, 2008 5:50 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Just to follow up on an earlier point - Secret Invasion has been locked down with this week's Cap issue as explicitly between Cap v5 #42 and #43, with "over a month" between issues. (Although, as with post-HoM and post-CW books that made the jump early, there's no indication of anything different yet)

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Subject: Uncanny Origins 8 & misc

Oct 22, 2008 10:51 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

UX 428 (1-23)
-Mystique enjoys causing problems in her home while married to a Baron. One day she has an affair with Azazel and becomes pregnant. The Baron is suspicious, so she kills him. She then gives birth to Kurt and the nurse freaks out. 
XU 4 (35:2-35:8)-FB
-Mystique grabs Kurt and runs, a mob has already formed to chase her. 
XU 4 (44:1-44:2)-FB
-Mystique hides from the mob and turns her appearance into a villager. 
UX 428 (24:1-24:3)
-Mystique curses Azazel and approaches a cliff as the mob follows. 
UO 8 (1-2)
-The mob catches up to Mystique. She turns back into a villager. 
XU 4 (36)-FB
-Mystique throws Kurt over a cliff. 
UX 428 (24:4-24:7)
-Kurt falls and teleports. 
UO 8 (3)
-Margali finds Kurt at the bottom of a cliff. 
NC3 8 (4:5-5:4)-FB
-Margali teaches Kurt how to walk as Stefan watches. 
XCAL 77-FB
-A Young Kurt learns a lesson about prejudice, Margali comforts him. 
UX@ 4 (32:4)-FB
-Kurt and Stefan play while Margali and Jemaine watch. 
UO 8 (4:1)
-Kurt, Stefan, and Jemaine play. 
NC3 8 (7:4-12:5)-FB
-Stefan tells Kurt his mother Margali deals in magic, and that he fears how it will affect him. 
UX@ 4 (32:5)-FB
-Kurt and Stefan swear a blood brother oath. 
UO 8 (4:3-4:5)
-Kurt thinks Stefan is joking, but hes serious. 
NC3 8 (12:6)-FB
-Both Stefan and Kurt are serious. 
UO 8 (5-8)
-Kurt discovers his love of Errol Flynn and is trained in acrobatics by Sabu. 
NC3 8 (13:4-17:4)-FB
-Before he becomes a performer, Kurt watches Jemaine do acrobatics in the circus. She almost dies when her trapeze breaks, he teleports in from the crowd to save her. 
UO 8 (9-12)
-Kurt becomes a performer himself, and saving Jemaine by teleporting becomes a part of their act. 
XU 4 (31-32)-FB 
-Kurt and Jemaine perform in the circus, Jemaine wants to travel the world, but Kurt is happy in Germany. 
UO 8 (13)
-Amos Jardine wants Kurt to be in his circus sideshow in Florida. 
NC3 9-FB
-Kurt goes to Florida and is put into a freakshow. He eventually escapes. 
UO 8 (14)
-Back in Germany, Kurt curses Jardine and has decided to travel. He tells Margali, Jamaine, and Sabu. 
XCAL -1 
-Kurt and Jemaine perform in the circus, Kurt wants to leave, but Margali wont let her daughter Jemaine go with him. At Kurts last performance his mentor Sabu dies, and Jemaine decides to stay, she was meant to die and not Sabu. After the funeral, Kurt packs his things and kisses Jemaine goodbye. 

*a few days later...

NC3 11 (5:2-6:3)-FB
-Jemaine calls Kurt and tells him Stefan has gone crazy. Not quite believing her, he makes his way back home. 
UO 8 (15:1-15:3)
-Kurt has found Stefan and approaches him with a smile, but is shocked to see hes surrounded by dead children. 
NC3 11 (6:4-9:4)-FB
-Stefan seems dazed and Kurt tries to talk him down. One of the children tries to crawl away and Stefan becomes upset. Kurt tries to stop him from attacking. 
UO 8 (15:4)
-Stefan yells at Kurt. 
M/CP 103 (1-2:2)-FB 
- Kurt and Stefan fight. 
UO 8 (15:5)
-Kurt and Stefan fight. 
UX@ 4 (32:6-33:1)-FB 
-Kurt and Stefan struggle. 
UO 8 (16:1-16:4)
-Kurt and Stefan fight. 
M/CP 103 (2:3-3:2)-FB
- Stefan breaks his own neck with Kurts tail. 
NC3 11 (9:5)-FB
-Stefans neck snaps. 
UO 8 (16:5)
-Stefans dead. 
NC3 11 (10:1)-FB
-Kurt checks the children. 
UX@ 4 (33:2)-FB
-Kurt is upset that Stefan is dead. 
UO 8 (17)
-Kurt tends to Stefan and a villager happens by. Kurt is blamed for the dead children and Kurt runs off. 
X: DG 1 (7:2)-FB
- Nightcrawler runs through the street, an angry mob is behind him.
GSX 1 (1-3:3)
- Nightcrawler is being chased through Winzeldorf by an angry mob. He jumps from a roof...

UO 8 (18-21) repeats GSX 1 (2-4), same dialogue, no new information. 

Some placement suggestions: 

NIGHTCRAWLER/KURT WAGNER 
UX 428 (1-23)
XU 4 (35:2-35:8)-FB
XU 4 (44:1-44:2)-FB
UX 428 (24:1-24:3)
*UO 8 (1-2)
XU 4 (36)-FB
UX 428 (24:4-24:7)
*UO 8 (3)
*NC3 8 (4:5-5:4)-FB
XCAL 77-FB
UX@ 4 (32:4)-FB
*UO 8 (4:1)
*NC3 8 (7:4-12:5)-FB
UX@ 4 (32:5)-FB
*UO 8 (4:3-4:5)
*NC3 8 (12:6)-FB
*UO 8 (5-8)
*NC3 8 (13:4-17:4)-FB
*UO 8 (9-12)
XU 4 (31-32)-FB 
*UO 8 (13)-BTS
*NC3 9-FB
*UO 8 (14)
XCAL -1
*NC3 11 (5:2-6:3)-FB
*UO 8 (15:1-15:3)
*NC3 11 (6:4-9:4)-FB
*UO 8 (15:4)
M/CP 103 (1-2:2)-FB 
*UO 8 (15:5)
UX@ 4 (32:6-33:1)-FB 
*UO 8 (16:1-16:4)
M/CP 103 (2:3-3:2)-FB
*NC3 11 (9:5)-FB
*UO 8 (16:5)
*NC3 11 (10:1)-FB
UX@ 4 (33:2)-FB
*UO 8 (17)
X: DG 1 (7:2)-FB
{GSX 1 (1-3:3)}

(M/TU 89-FB needs to be deleted, as its only dialogue and not a FlashBack. UX 428 is set entirely in the past, there is no framing sequence to flash back from, so the FB notation should be removed)

MYSTIQUE/RAVEN DARKHOLME/"MALLORY BRICKMAN"/"B. BYRON BIGGS"/"RONNIE LAKE"/"DALE FYFE"
UX 428 (1-23)
XU 4 (35:2-35:8)-FB
XU 4 (44:1-44:2)-FB
UX 428 (24:1-24:3)
*UO 8
XU 4 (36)-FB
UX 428 (24:4-24:7)
XMF 4

(UX 428 is set entirely in the past, there is no framing sequence to flash back from, so the FB notation should be removed)

SZARDOS, MARGALI 
*UO 8 (1-3)
*NC3 8 (4:5-5:4)-FB
XCAL 77-FB
*UO 8 (4-12)
UX@ 4-FB
*NC3 8 (7:4-12:6)-FB
*UO 8 (13-23)
XCAL -1
UX@ 4


SZARDOS, STEFAN 
*NC3 8 (4:5-5:4)-FB
*UX@ 4 (32:4)-FB
*UO 8 (1-4:1)
*NC3 8 (7:4-12:5)-FB
*UX@ 4 (32:5)-FB
*UO 8 (4:3-14:3)
*NC3 8 (12:6)-FB
*NC3 8 (13:4-17:4)-FB
*NC3 11 (5:2-6:3)-FB
*UO 8 (15:1-15:3)
*NC3 11 (6:4-9:4)-FB
*UO 8 (15:4)
M/CP 103 (1-2:2)-FB 
*UO 8 (15:5)
*UX@ 4 (32:6-33:1)-FB 
*UO 8 (16:1-16:4)
M/CP 103 (2:3-3:2)-FB
*NC3 11 (9:5)-FB
*UO 8 (16:5)
*NC3 11 (10:1)-FB
*UX@ 4 (33:2)-FB
*UO 8 (17-23)

DAYTRIPPER/JEMAINE SEFTON/AMANDA SEFTON 
*UO 8 (1-8)
UX@ 4-FB
*NC3 8-FB
*UO 8 (9-12)
XU 4-FB
*UO 8 (13-23)
XCAL -1
*NC3 11-FB
{UX 98}


-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Oct 22, 2008 11:48 pm 
By wolframbane

Exceptionally well researched Colonel Fury!!

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Subject: X-Men: Legacy 217

Oct 26, 2008 2:31 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

X-Men: Legacy #217
Original Sin prelude
Original Sin Part 1
Original Sin Part 2
December, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Professor X, Daken(Akihiro), Sebastian Shaw, Ms. Sinister(Claudine Renko), Hellfire Club people(Armor Guy, Lion Guy, Energy Lady)

FlashBack Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Professor X, Moira MacTaggert

Synopsis: 
Pg1-FB
Wolverine cuts Professor X!
Pg2-pg3: continued from last issue
Wolverine makes Xavier read his memories. 
Pg4-pg5-FB
Professor X is bandaged from the attack, Wolverine is chained. Moira and the Professor discuss Wolverines damaged mind, the Professor thinks someone programmed Wolverine to kill him. He then decides to reprogram Wolverine
Pg6-pg22
Wolverine and Xavier arrive in New York and prepare to break into the Hellfire Club. Meanwhile in Panama, Ms. Sinister presents Daken to Sebastian Shaw. Ms. Sinister attempts to read Dakens thoughts, but theres a wall in his mind. She tries a little harder and almost falls into a trap. She later explains this to Shaw, who realizes that Romulus set a trap in Dakens mind for telepaths. Meanwhile, Wolverine makes his way into the Hellfire Club. Inside, Armor Guy, Lion Guy, & Energy Lady discuss Sunspots recent resignation and the possible threat Shaw still poses. Back in Panama, Shaw and Ms. Sinister chat about using Dakens mind to trap Xavier and using Wolverine to attack the Hellfire Club.(they left a Hellfire mask at the scene of Dakens abduction) Back at the Hellfire Club in New York, Wolverine is approached by Armor Guy, Lion Guy, & Energy Lady. 

References: 
To be continued in Wolverine: Origins 29!

There are FlashBacks on pg11pn1-pg11pn2, but theyre reminder FlashBacks to earlier issues. No new information. 

Some placement suggestions: 

WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT

AF 52 (4:2-4:5) -FB
X: OS 1 (3:1-3:3)-FB
X: OS 1 (24:2)-FB
*X 217-FB
GSX 3
X: OS 1 (1:2-2)-FB
GSX 1 (14 - 15:2) 


PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER

GSX 1 (12:2 - 13:8)
X: OS 1 (3:1-3:3)-FB
X: OS 1 (24:2)-FB
*X 217-FB
GSX 3-BTS
X: OS 1 (2)-FB
GSX 1 (14 - 15:2)


MACTAGGERT, MOIRA KINROSS 

X:HY 10
X: DG 1/2-BTS
X: DG 2/2-BTS
X: DG 3/2
X: DG 4/2 (5:4-5:5)-FB
X: DG 4 (9:2-12:6)-FB
X: DG 4/2 (6-8)-FB
X: DG 4/2 
X: DG 5/2
X 2 (16:1)-FB
X 2 (17:4)-FB
XU 2-FB
X: DG 4 (1-2)-FB
X: DG 4 (4:1)-FB
X: DG 4 (6:2-6:6)-FB
X: DG 4 (13:2-19:3)-FB
X: DG 6 (15:3-16:6)-FB
X: DG 1 (23:2-23:3)-FB
X: DG 1 (27:2)-FB
X: DG 3 (22:5-22:6)-FB
X: DG 4 (3:1)-FB
X: DG 4 (9:1)-FB
X: DG 4 (13:1)-FB
X: DG 4 (19:4-20:1)-FB
*X 217-FB
UX 94-BTS
CX 2
{UX 96}
-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Subject: Thor: The Truth of History

Oct 24, 2008 6:37 pm 
By Somebody
Director

THOR: THE TRUTH OF HISTORY #1
Writer/Artist: Alan Davis
"Thor: The Truth of History"

Cast:
THOR/THOR ODINSON/(etc)
BALDER
SIF
VOLSTAGG
HOGUN
FANDRAL
NEDRA (after JIM 105/2)

One-off characters (past):

HOSAAIN TARREE [Egyptian god/human hybrid]
PHAROAH NEB-MAAT
A Griffen
Various mystical animal/human hybrids
Lots of Egyptians

One-off characters (present):
"Stanley" [an archeologist modelled after Stan Laurel]
"Oliver" [an archeologist modelled after Oliver Hardy]

Summary:

pg1
"The Giza Plateau, Egypt, Today":

"Stanley" and "Oliver", two archelogists, argue over the providence of the Sphinx - Oliver claims that it was constructed with the pyramids around 2500 BC, while Stan claims that there are signs of erosion by running water, and "there has been no significant rainfall in Egypt for more than four thousand years!" 

pg2-7
"Less Than Four Thousand Years Ago, on a glacial ridge in Asgard's Menhir Mountains"

Thor, Sif, Balder and the Warriors Three fight their way through to a fortified cave, where Nedra - the exiled Queen of Jotunheim - has created a portal to Earth, against the law. When Volstagg gets in, he makes a beeline for the warm portal and falls through. Sif observes Egyptian artifacts in the room, and deduces that that's where the portal leads.

Thor leaves Sif & Balder to watch Nedra and her vassal witch while he, Hogun and Fandral go after Volstagg.

pg8-13
[Ancient Egypt]

They come across slaves quarrying blocks, who are frightened to death of them, and call for their "beloved protector", Hosaain Tarree, who has Egyptian god blood in him. Thor (who doesn't understand a word of the Egyptians' language) beats him easily, and then carves a bunch of blocks for the slaves. They are horrified at both, and beg them to go, pointing them towards Giza. The Asgardians completely misunderstand this last reaction.

pg14
"Giza."

Volstagg is being pampered by a bunch of "fair maids".

pg15-20

Entering Giza, Thor, Hogun and Fandral observe a pyramid under construction, and many starving peasants. The head of a small group of soldiers, who has encountered Volstagg, leads them past the Sphinx (which has a griffen's head). When they reach the dining area where Volstagg had been, Thor tosses the food to the peasants outside, which insults their host, "Neb-Maat", who leads a collection of human/Egyptian god hybrids.

pg21

Volstagg is carried down a dark corridor, and is about to be fastened to an obelisk. He cries "Nooo..."

pg22

...which carries up the stairs to the other three Asgardians, who recognise the voice. Thor sends Hogun and Fandral to find Volstagg, while he trounces the animalistic demi-gods.

pg23-33

Volstagg is now tied up, and when Hogun and Fandral enter, they're tied up in a fight with more demi-gods. They then notice the griffen behind Volstagg, but Thor comes in just in time to knock it through a wall. They fight, with Nab-Maat being stomped to death by the griffen while Thor recovers from a blow. Finally, Thor wins by blasting it with lighting, which knocks the griffen's face off the Sphinx in the process. With the griffen and Nab-Maat dead, and seeing two of the "halflings" cowering before him, Thor turns off the lighning, but lets the rain continue.

They head home, Fandral scolding Volstagg for having brought them there, and Thor saying "'Tis sufficient that duty brought us here and we have acted with honour".

pg34
"Present Day"

Stan and Ollie are still arguing, while the camera zooms in on a hieroglypic depicting Thor.

Continuity notes:
Any relation to real-world history is entirely coincidental - suggesting that the pyramids were constructed c. 2500 BC in the framing sequence is fine, then showing one still under construction "less than 4000 years ago" (i.e., after 2000 BC - when the Egyptian royalty had decamped to Thebes) isn't. Even before you consider the fictional pharaoh ["Neb-Maat" was used as a title by three pharoahs, two as "Neb-Maat-Ra", but not their name] and mystic animals, which are neither here nor there . It's a "storybook" Ancient Egypt.

The Asgardians are all full-grown adults in their classic costumes, etc.

The Asgardians know of the Egyptian gods (the "Gods of Heliopolis") and they recognise statues of several of them. They apparently have a pact with them (and "the other pantheons" in general, without mentioning which ones) not to directly interact with Earth at this point, and - to make any sense of the Egyptian setting - it must predate Viking worship of the Aesir by many centuries.

Nedra is from JIM 105/2, a Tale of Asgard set well before Thor lifted the hammer (if he was even born). She was apparently exiled from Jotenheim sometime after that story, but no problems.

However, there's an apparent clash with T@ 5 here. Firstly, the weird kid-Sif from there (which is on a page already partially written off and which doesn't fit with other stuff anyway, as I mentioned in my Thor: Son of Asgard placements). But, secondly, there's the timeframe of this vs. the timeframe of the Asgardian/Olympian War; where Thor & co appear fairly ignorant of other pantheons. It certainly goes against creator intent (given that the "less than 4000 years ago" caption is set up by Stan's line at the end of pg1), but given the "500+ years too late" pyramid construction problem that's already there, I'm willing to assume the portal involves time-travel to the past, and place accordingly since all of the Egyptian characters are one-shots where placement isn't involved.

The other thing I'm not sure about is whether to call the story a FB - there's a framing sequence with two archeologists that look suspiciously like Laurel & Hardy, but they don't learn of the events of the story. I'm saying "no" unless it's insisted otherwise.


Placement suggestions:

THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" [ASGARDIAN]
[...]
T@ 5
**T:TOH 1
CM5 17-FB
[...]

SIF [ASGARDIAN]
[...]
T@ 11-FB
**T:TOH 1
T@ 14/4
[...]

BALDER [ASGARDIAN]
[...]
T@ 5
**T:TOH 1
T 401
[...]

FANDRAL [ASGARDIAN]
[...]
T@ 5
**T:TOH 1
T 401
[...]

HOGUN [ASGARDIAN]
[...]
T@ 5
**T:TOH 1
T 401
[...]

VOLSTAGG [ASGARDIAN]
[...]
T@ 5
**T:TOH 1
T 401
[...]

NEDRA [from Jotunheim. I'm not going to work out what the adjective of that is ]
JIM 105/2
**T:TOH 1

			*	*	*

Oct 24, 2008 9:09 pm 
By wolframbane

Since this was 4000 years ago, I wonder if it was actually a prior incarnation of Thor and the Asgardians. In T 293-294 and 301, it was revealed that the Star of Bethlehem (circa 4 BC) was actually the destruction of an earlier incarnation of Asgard. Has anyone reviewed an approximate timeline as to early Asgard or when the Ragnarok cycles happened?

			*	*	*

Oct 24, 2008 9:55 pm 
By Somebody
Director

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
Since this was 4000 years ago,
<<<

LESS THAN Four Thousand Years Ago. (And I had to write it off from being anywhere near 4k years ago for the Asgardians for the reasons I explained above). And...


wolframbane wrote:
>>>
I wonder if it was actually a prior incarnation of Thor and the Asgardians. In T 293-294 and 301, it was revealed that the Star of Bethlehem (circa 4 BC) was actually the destruction of an earlier incarnation of Asgard. Has anyone reviewed an approximate timeline as to early Asgard or when the Ragnarok cycles happened?
<<<

We've been over this enough recently already, no? T 293-FB and T 294-FB are apocryphal. They're not in the MCP, because they didn't happen - they've been contradicted both before and after that the publication (before because they attempt to write off JIM 97/2 as being an earlier cycle, rather than the birth of the actual Odin).

Certain aspects have been retained, but all have support elsewhere - T@ 11-FB (2-5), for instance, depict the birth of Thor to Gaia/Jord independently of that series of FBs); and T2 83 confirms that the Asgardians went through cycles of rebirth, but contradicts T 293-294 in other ways, for instance by depicting Balder as a kid with Thor & Loki in a FB. T3 8 goes further, to show Balder being born as an infant - and Thor: Ages of Thunder and Thor: Reign of Blood appear to suggest that in a fully-realised Ragnarok cycle, ALL Nine Worlds get reset. Including Midgard/Earth. And I haven't even mentioned Simonson's origin of Odin (which is entirely consistent with JIM 97/2), nor Thor: Son of Asgard.

QED, the Kirby-Cycle Asgardians themselves weren't born as little statuettes, and the "Giant Eyeball With A Grudge's" flashback is apocryphal.

			*	*	*

Oct 25, 2008 6:42 am 
By Enda80

As I recall, the Horusians entry in a recent Hulk handbook said something regarding the Sphinx's history.

			*	*	*

Oct 25, 2008 8:39 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I thought the Sphinx was Kang's time machine.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Oct 25, 2008 8:44 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Wasn't that *a* Sphinx rather than *THE* Sphinx? I'm pretty sure the Sphinx has been seen in modern-day stories.

			*	*	*

Oct 25, 2008 8:49 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Beats me. I thought it was THE Sphinx, and then he just left it behind? I don't know -- I'm sure it's been retconned about fifteen times by now.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Oct 25, 2008 8:55 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Well, I just had a look, and if you believe the Appendix, the Sphinx has at least four origins, and this is compatible with at least two of them (One of them being the IH 145 story Enda apparently just referenced. It would be nice if he had actually explained what he meant for once.)

			*	*	*

Oct 25, 2008 9:10 pm 
By Enda80

If the Asgardians appear here as native temporal inhabitants, this may serve as their earliest recorded interaction with Earth. 

Seth has, as I recall, in Thor I#240-241 and circa Thor I#400, as well as perhaps Osiris in Thor I#301, asserted a great age for the Heliopolitan pantheon that places them as existing before the Asgardians.

			*	*	*

Oct 26, 2008 11:46 am 
By jephyork
Director

What the hell is a "native temporal inhabitant"?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Oct 26, 2008 11:54 am 
By Enda80

"Native temporal inhabitant" refers to someone who inhabits a period of time without the agency of time travel. The word "temporal" refers to time. So somebody who has not time traveled to a period of time serves as a native temporal inhabitant. Somebody who inhabits a period of time through time travel does not represent a native temporal inhabitant.

			*	*	*

Oct 26, 2008 4:45 pm 
By jephyork
Director

So -- "somebody who hasn't done any time-traveling".

You're damned odd.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Oct 26, 2008 6:29 pm 
By Enda80

I use the term "native temporal inhabitant" or "native temporal counterpart" for stories involving characters traveling in to the past and encountering or near-encountering their past counterparts. 

Example, Tomb of Dracula I#5 (Dracula time-travels to a point in history where he got staked by Van Helsing), Avengers I#56 (Captain America time-travels to 1945 when Baron Heinrich Zemo stole the plane) and so forth.

			*	*	*

Oct 26, 2008 6:38 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
I use the term "native temporal inhabitant" or "native temporal counterpart"
<<<

And that's why you're damned odd.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 30

Subject: Amazing Spider-Man Family #1

Oct 23, 2008 8:38 pm 
By michaelyuri

Amazing Spider-Man Family #1

Story #1: 48 Hours
Writer: J.M.DeMattais
Artist: Alex Cal


Characters Appearing: Liz Allen, May Parker, Spider-Man, Flash Thompson


Synopsis:
1-2: Guests leave the Parker house after Uncle Ben's wake.

3-5: Peter, in his room, considers destroying his costume, but instead decides to be a hero. He tries to mix up a new batch of web fluid, but a small explosion results. Aunt May finds him and the two head to the kitchen for a midnight snack.

6-10: Peter leaves home as Spider-Man and comes across a purse-snatching in progress. He stops the teenage thieves, but when he tries to return the purse, the terrified owner sics her dog on him. The police arrive and try to subdue Spider-Man. He tries to web them up, but his web fluid explodes. They think he's carrying a bomb, so they start to shoot, and Spider-Man flees.

11p1-11p6: Peter returns home through his window.

11p7-13: Peter goes to school the next day. People are avoiding him because they heard about Ben's death. Flash makes fun of Peter, but Liz Allen defends him. Liz tells Peter that even though they've never really been friends she's there if he needs anything.

14-15p5: Peter comes home and finds May going through the bills. She's concerned about paying them, but tells Peter not to worry about it.

15p6-22p1: At night, Spider-Man swings out through the city. He follows firetrucks to a fire. He's initially too frightened, but an old woman is crying that her daughter and grandson are still inside, so he climbs the building. Spider-Man saves the daughter and grandson and then returns to save everyone else left in the building. People start asking him who he is and he swings off. He stops on a building to vomit.

22p2-22p6: The next morning, May tells Peter that she knows he was out all night, but she doesn't need to know where he was. Peter is now feeling better about himself.


Continuity Notes:
I don't know how (or whether) this fits into Peter's existing chronology, but here are the obvious placement clues:
The story starts immediately after Uncle Ben's wake.
It's implied (but not explicitly stated) that Peter's foray on page 6 is his first ever attempt at crime-fighting.
The title and flow of the story imply that it happens continuously over three days (rough division: day one:1-5, day two:6-15p5, day three:15p6-22p6).

--------------------

Story #2: The Final Chapter! [Marvel Apes]
Story: Karl Kesel
Art: Ramon Bachs


Characters Appearing: Ape X, Spider-Monkey/Peter Parker
In Flashback: Doc Ook, Green Goblin, Kongpin, Lizard, Ben Parker, May Parker, Sandmonk, Spider-Monkey, Mary Jane Watson


Synopsis:
1-5: Spider-Monkey is trapped under tons of metal in Doc Ook's underwater hideout. He uses all of his strength and thinks he has lifted it, only to find that Ape X actually lifted it off. Ape X tells him that Doc Ook is on a rampage, and the two leave to chase him down.


Flashbacks:
2p3: While Peter and other students are attending a science demonstration, a radioactive spider slips into his banana bunch. 
2p4: At home, the spider bites him. 
2p5: Spider-Monkey becomes a media sensation. 
2p6: Peter and May mourn after Uncle Ben's death. 
3p1: Peter tracks down Ben's killer. 
3p2: Secretly being Spider-Monkey gets in the way of his relationships with May and Mary Jane. 
3p3: Peter battles the Green Goblin, Lizard, Sandmonk, and Kongpin.
3p4: Doc Ook escapes with the serpeant crown, leaving Spider-Monkey trapped under the metal.


Continuity Notes:
This story takes place immediately before the battle with Doc Ook in Marvel Apes #1.

--------------------

Story #3: Family Ties! [MC-2]
Writer: Tom DeFalco
Pencils: Ron Frenz
Inks: Sal Buscema


Characters Appearing: Martha Connors, Lizard, Spider-Girl, Spider-Man, Mary Jane Watson-Parker
In flashback: Billy Connors, Martha Connors, Spider-Girl, Spider-Man, Mary Jane Watson-Parker

Synopsis:
1-2: Spider-Man battles the Lizard in the sewers.

3-5: (Flashback) Peter and Mary Jane prepare to go out with the Curt and Martha Connors. Baby May is asleep in her crib. At the Connors apartment, Martha tells them that Curt isn't home. She tells them that she and Billy have been sick from the water at their Everglades home, and Curt is working on a solution. The Parkers leave to look or Curt. They arrive at his lab and find it smashed. His lab notebook indicates that Connors's cure would be harmful to lizards, and Peter infers that this knowledge caused Curt to turn into the Lizard. Mary Jane gives him the OK to go after Connors as Spider-Man.

6-9: Spider-Man and the Lizard battle in the sewers. Meanwhile, Mary Jane reassures Martha that Curt and Peter will be home soon. Peter convinces the Lizard that Connors doesn't mean the lizards any harm and Connors reverts to human form.

10: At home, Peter tells MJ that Connors is going back to the drawing board with his cure and Peter's going to work with him on it.


Continuity Notes:
This story takes place after May is returned to the Parkers by Kaine, but before Peter's battle with Norman Osborn in which he loses his leg. Unfortunately, in the original telling, the final showdown with Norman happened almost immediately after May's return. I've shoehorned this between the flashbacks in Spider-Girl #49. It's awkward, but, on the assumption that Mary Jane didn't immediately tell Peter about Kaine's intention to kill Norman Osborn, it works. 


Chronology entries:
ASMF = Amazing Spider-Man Family

*Connors, Billy
*ASMF 1-3-FB

*Connors, Martha
*ASMF 1-3-FB
*ASMF 1/3

*Lizard/Curt Connors
*ASMF 1/3

Spider-Girl
SG 48-FB (9:4-9:5)
SG 49-FB (1:2, 1:4, 1:6, 7:4)
SG 48-FB (19:1)
*SG 49-FB (14:3-14:4)
*ASMF 1-3-FB
*ASMF 1/3
*SG 49-FB (16:3-16:4)
WI?2 105-FB (7:4)
SG 7/2-FB (5:2-5:5)
SG 54-FB (10:3)
. . .

Spider-Man
. . .
SG 7/2-FB (3:5)
SMF 1-FB (4-9)
SG 44-FB (15:3)
*ASMF 1-3-FB
*ASMF 1/3
SG 49-FB (16:3-16:4)
WI?2 105-FB (7:4)
SG 49-FB (16:5-17:4)
. . .

Watson-Parker, Mary Jane
. . .
SG 44-FB (13:3)
SG 7/2-FB (3:5)
SG 48-FB (9:2, 10:5-10:6, 19:1)
*SG 49-FB (14:3-14:4)
*ASMF 1-3-FB
*ASMF 1/3
*SG 49-FB (16:2-16:3)
WI?2 105-FB (7:4)
SG 7/2-FB (5:2-6)
SG 54-FB (10:3)
. . .

--------------------

Story #4: Birthday Girl
Writer/Inker: Keith Champagne
Penciler: Shawn Moll


Characters Appearing: May Parker, Mister Negative/Martin Li, Spider-Man


Synopsis:
1-2: At the F.E.A.S.T. center, Aunt May and others prepare a birthday party for a young girl named Samantha. May is worried because Samantha hasn't returned from her scavenger hunt yet and goes looking for her.

3-4: At the local grocery, May catches a boy shoplifting, and learns from the owner that Samantha left there 20 minutes earlier.

5-6: May learns that Samantha never made it to the hat store. Kyle tells her that he saw her run away after a man tried to talk to her.

7-11: May finds Samantha in an alley with her father Kenneth, who is singing happy birthday. May says that there's a court order preventing him from seeing Samantha. He gets angry and May pulls out a can of pepper spray. Spider-Man swings down to intervene, but May sprays him in the face and he swings off. May warns Kenneth against making his situation worse. Samantha thanks him for remembering her birthday and then leaves with May. On the way back to the Center they meet up with a teary eyed Peter. 


Continuity Notes:
This story clearly takes place within the current Brand New Day continuity.
May mentions Peter's "roommate Vincent," which places this after he moved in with Vin.

I believe all the rest of the people in this story (Horace, Mr. Egg, Kyle, Samantha, Kenneth Charles) are one-off characters who don't need listings.

--------------------

Story #5: Reprint of Amazing Spider-Man #300
ASM 300 is already in the MCP

---------------------

Mike

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Oct 24, 2008 6:09 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for submitting this analysis, Mike. I'll work on it this weekend, but if anyone has any comments in the meantime, please post 'em.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 27, 2008 10:07 am 
By cweed4

With regards to the first story in ASMF 1 it sounds like the beginning fits here-

ASM 400/3 [this story takes place the morning after Ben is killed]
WTS 12-FB [1 pg FB to the wake]
ASMF 1 (1-11:6)
AAF 16 (3-6) [at home w/ May the night before(?) Ben's funeral]

It was established in PPTSS 60/2 that Ben's funeral was within 48 hours of his death. This does seem to conflict with the idea that this story is taking place on continuous days. In order to accomodate the funeral, maybe his first day back to school here is a day or two later than michaelyuri suggests? 

Now, it should be noted that I haven't read this story yet and I'm just going off the review. However, it does sound like the same basic idea from AF 16 and covers a lot of the same ground. In that story, Peter is consoled by Liz at school the day after Ben's funeral. He comes home to find May dealing with finacial trouble. (This time its about having to pay for some new furniture that Ben ordered before his death.) Peter goes to his room, throws his mask in frustration, blames his decision to be Spidey for all these troubles and then broods until...he goes web-swinging. Then he stumbles across the same furniture salesman that was with May earlier and thinks something is fishy. He follows the guy to a warehouse and discovers the whole thing is a con to swindle grieving widows/widowers. One thing leads to another and suddenly Spidey has broken up this scheme and leaves the crooks webbed up for the police. To top it off he stops a mugging while swinging home. Now, quite pleased with himself, he has an epiphany: this is "how I can use my powers responsibly." He then arrives home and shares some cookies w/ May.

Because so much of this new story seems to repeat stuff from the earlier one I would suggest adding more space between time references to accomodate both. There is no continued story from AAF 16 to AAF 17 so it would be easy to fit the rest of ASMF 1 between those two entries. Whether you're using my Spidey origin or the current listing, that would make it-

PPTSS 60/2 (17:6)
SPECSM 1/2 (10:4)
AAF 16
ASMF 1 (11:7-22)
AAF 17

			*	*	*

Thread 31

Subject: HULK MONSTER-SIZE SPECIAL #1

Oct 25, 2008 2:13 am 
By wolframbane

HULK MONSTER-SIZE SPECIAL #1 (HMSS 1)
December 2008
"It's Alive! Alive!!!"
22 pages

Characters: Hulk (Bruce Banner), Victoria Frankenstein, Monster of Frankenstein, Fritz, Children of the Damned, Hulkbusters, Victor Frankenstein (in portrait)

Synopsis:
(1-2). Bruce Banner is hiding out in Lyon, France under the alias Jacque Demasse. A local Hulkbuster unit established in Europe attempt to flush him out. Bruce is knocked out with gas by a mysterious operative, who spirits him away by car. Nighttime in Europe, approx 8:30pm according to clock tower.
(3). Bruce awakens on a train in Austria, and meets Victoria Frankestein and her hunchback servant Fritz. VIctoria reveals that she had been the one to secretly supply him with a passport and ticket to Lyon, and asks for his expertise. Daytime (probably following day), green forests.
(4-5). Arriving at Castle Frankenstein in Austria, Victoria shows Bruce the comatose form of the Frankenstein's Monster, who has undergone massive cellular breakdown. Bruce agrees to help her heal him. Nighttime during lightning storm (probably same day).
(6). Bruce and Victoria work to repair the Monster, which new organs procured by her Children. Fritz grows jealous of Bruce and Victoria growing closer. A montage of images over "weeks."
(7). Bruce and Victoria take a walk thru the nearby village. Daytime, green forests. 
(8). The Monster has been in a chemical solution for days with no improvement. Bruce is drugged by Victoria. Nighttime, full moon. Monster has been in solution "for three days". Probably not the same day as (7) when Victoria mentioned working on "the spinal cord again," as the Monster has been in the solution for several days.
(9-22). Bruce awakens to find Victoria has bound him and is transfusing his regenerative blood to the Monster, accompanied by vast amounts of electricity, which awakens it. Bruce becomes the Hulk, breaks free, and during his battle with the Monster breaks out of the castle and into the nearby town. Hulk is weakened from the loss of blood, but the Monster is even more powerful. Fritz, who has fallen in love with Victoria, reveals that he contacted the Hulkbuster Unit 9, who arrive in helicopters and armored suits. Hulk and the Monster team up against the Hulkbusters, who soon retreat, Despite their newfound bond, Hulk leaves, and the Monster departs with Victoria. Nighttime, full moon, probably same night as (8).

Notes: This story occurs during a period off "weeks" ending the night of a full moon. The events occur "three years ago" but does not reveal three years before when, I would suggest it is actually three years before Bruce records the events in his journal, in which he narrates the tale.

As the Monster is in the care of Victoria, it occurs after FMON 18 (1975). She tells Bruce "you are the first in many years to see him... the Monster," so I would place this somewhere between the long absence of the Monster after it fought Dreadknight in IM 101-103 (1977) and before it had "gone his own way" sometime before DRSTR3 37 (1992).

The story also would have to occur while Banner was still the child-like Green Hulk, and on the run from the Hulkbusters, during a unrecorded period of weeks. He may or may not have been in Europe before this. When Victoria sent him the passport, it may have been a passport from America or simply another country in Europe. Anyone familiar enough with Hulk to place him in Europe? I am aware of H 136, 144-146, but these stories were all published in 1971 before the Monster was found frozen in FMON 12.

The Castle Frankenstein is probably the Swiss Castle (from FMON 18 and IM 101-102) where Victoria has previously been shown to reside (which is in Switzerland, a country that borders on Austria), rather than the one in Bavaria (DRSTR3 37) or London (FMON 9-11).

Victoria said she was "73" and her aging was retarded due to a formula Victor Frankenstein discivered during his work. She called Victor her great grandfather, but Victor died childless and she was actually descended from a near relative (OHOTMU:DE 4). Victoria also called the Monster "Adam", which he was called in BLOODSTONE 1-4.


HULK MONSTER-SIZE SPECIAL #1/2 (HMSS 1/2)
"Hulk By Night "
8 pages

Characters: Hulk (Bruce Banner), Werewolf By Night (Jack Russell)

Synopsis:
(1). Bruce awakens "somewhere in Italy," his ripped clothes suggesting he was the Hulk the night before. He is found by Jack Russell, who offers to take him home. Daytime and evening ("it will be dark soon"), green trees.
(2.) Back at Jack's home, Bruce is now dressed and fed. Jack asks Bruce to lock him in the cage. Still daylight, same day.
(3-7). Bruce locks Jack in a cage as night falls. Under the full moon, Jack becomes a werewolf and scratches the nearby Bruce, who becomes the Hulk and rips open the cage. The Hulk and Werewolf battle into the forest, where the Werewolf attacks a couple in a car, but the Hulk defends them. Both combatants finally collapse due to their injuries. Nightime, full moon, green trees. Same day as (1-2).
(8). Bruce wakes up and finds Jack gone, but he left a thank you note with enough money (in Euros) to help Bruce "get home." Daytime, the following day.

Notes: This story occurs over two days, ending on the night of a full moon. This is while Banner was still the child-like Green Hulk. This occurs while he was in Europe, and as Jack gave him money to get home, perhaps it was shortly before Banner returned to America in some issue. Again, is anyone familiar enough with Hulk to place him in Europe? Perhaps he arrived in Europe when Victoria Frankenstein sent him the passport in HMSS 1, and this returned home from Europe when Jack gave him the money.

This story also has to occur during a period when Jack Russell himself was apparently living in Italy for some time ("I haven't been home in a long time"). Also note he is depicted with longer hair than he had in the Werewolf By Night series. Anyone familiar enough with the Werewolf to know a time he lived in Europe or if there was wnough of a break he could have lived in Europe? Perhaps it occurred sometime between WBN 15 (vs Dracula in Transylvania) and WBN 16 (Arrived in France to fly back to the US), or perhaps between GSWBN 3 (back in Transylvania) and WBN 27 (returned to US). For more info, read the timeline at the bottom of the page in:
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/russelljackww.htm

This is well before Hulk and Werewolf later fought in H2 362.


HULK MONSTER-SIZE SPECIAL #1/3 (HMSS 1/3)
"Goom's Fairy Tales"
2 pages

Characters: Goom, Googam
Cameos: Hulk, Rorgg, Tim Boo Ba, Goliath, Lo Karr, Fin Fang Foom

Synopsis:
(1-2). Goom tells his young son Googam scary stories about the Hulk beating up monsters (Rorgg, Tim Boo Ba, Goliath, Lo Karr, Fin Fang Foom). A voice from the other room yells him to stop. The young Googam goes to scared. One day, probably evening (possibly in the cave where Goom left Googam was depicted in TOS 17).

Notes: This is a humorous piece that may or may not be canon. There is no real reason not to include it I figure. Some of the stories that Goom tells his son may or may not be real, although the only one that is definitely known to have happened was Hulk's battle with Fin Fang Foom, "throwing him into space," as shown in Hulk Vs Fin Fang Foom #1. Hulk (as a member of the Fantastic Four) also faced Goliath in an unrelated battle in FF 347 and 349, and a duplicate of Goom created by Xemnu in H2@ 5.

If this story is canon, it probably takes place on Planet X before Goom and Googam come to Earth in TOS 15 and 17, but after the first appearances of all the other monsters and the Hulk. 

Goom first appeared in TOS 15 (1961).
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/goomtos.htm

Googam first appeared in TOS 17 (1961).
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/googam.htm

Rorgg, King of the Spider Monsters first appeared in JIM 64 (1961).
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/rorggspider.htm

Tim Boo Ba first appeared in AAF 9 (1962).
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/timbooba.htm

Goliath/Gigantus first appeared in JIM 63 (1960).
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/gigant.htm

Lo Karr first appeared in JIM 75 (1961).
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/lokarrjim.htm

Fin Fang Foom first appeared in ST 81 (1961).
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/finfangfoom.htm

Also note the poster on the wall with the cover of TOS 15. Perhaps Marvel Comics in Earth-616 eventually adapted many "real life" monster stories such as Goom's appearance, similar to many of the Marvel Comics featuring established Earth-616 monsters were read by the young Peter Parker in SENSM -1.


HULK MONSTER-SIZE SPECIAL #1/4 (HMSS 1/4)
"Blood Count"
10 pages, text story w/ images

Characters: Hulk (Bruce Banner), Count Dracula, his bride, Leader (BTS)

Synopsis: Villagers attack Dracula is at his Castle in Transylvania, Romania one evening, but run away when the Hulk happens upon the scene. Realizing the potential of such a powerful creature, Dracula invites him into the castle but is unable to mentally possess him. Hulk mentions that he had recently fought the Leader and escaped being trapped in a mountain. After Hulk falls asleep in an opulent bedchamber, he awakens as Bruce the following evening. He dines with Dracula and his Bride (name unrevealed), but he refuses Dracula's offer to submit to him. Enraged, the Bride bites Bruce and begins to feed upon his blood, but his radioactive blood causes her to mutate into a green-tinged uber vampire. Bruce himself becomes the Hulk and battles her, and Dracula himself impales her with a chair leg, killing her. Dracula again tries to possess Hulk, but Hulk causes a sonic boom with his hands, devastating the castle and he leaps away into the night. Dracula escapes, but is again beseiged by villagers, whom he dispatches with wolves.

Notes: This story occurs over two nights. It is a text story, and therefore possibly non-canon, but there are accompanying images of the action. This is while Banner was still the child-like Green Hulk and while he was in Europe. There is a topical reference to the "21st century".

Hulk mentions having recently battled the Leader ("Leader attacked Hulk again. Thought he could trap me in mountain far from here. He was wrong. Hulk escaped.") Is anyone aware of the Hulk having battled the Leader in Europe under a mountain? This would seem to describe the events of TTA 72/2 (1965), when the army destroyed a mountain Hulk and Leader were under, and Leader teleported them both to Rome, Italy. Dracula was stilled staked just prior to the Modern era (BFF:S 1-3), so this would have to be after he was ressurrected in the modern era in TOD 1 (1972). Also see:
http://www.leaderslair.com/noexcuses/tta072.html

As Castle Transylvania was destroyed in this story (only to be seen many times afterward), this is probably one of many such castles (as referred to in http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/draculav.htm ), including castles in Snagov and Borgo Pass), or possibly was only partially destroyed. This castle was mentioned as having "nineteenth century" furnishings.

			*	*	*

Oct 25, 2008 6:15 am 
By Enda80

"Also note the poster on the wall with the cover of TOS 15. Perhaps Marvel Comics in Earth-616 eventually adapted many "real life" monster stories such as Goom's appearance, similar to many of the Marvel Comics featuring established Earth-616 monsters were read by the young Peter Parker in SENSM -1."

Marvel Comics: History of the Marvels affirms that the Earth-616 Timely/Atlas did in fact do this.

(Marvel Comics: History of the Marvels) - Starting from circa the 1950's, the majority of Atlas' output was devoted to titles depicting supposedly authenticated tales of peoples' encounters with extraterrestrial lifeforms. Creatures such as Goom and Oog and Groot filled the pages-each tale personally verified and vouched for by Stan Lee and his staff.

The character of Fritz first appeared in an 1823 stage adaptation, Presumption: or the Fate of Frankenstein by Richard Brinsley Peake.

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Oct 25, 2008 1:00 pm 
By wolframbane

I think that if we are unable to place a definitive time for Hulk to be in Europe for HMSS 1 and HMSS 1/2, it can be placed anytime during his Green Hulk phase where there is a few weeks to accomodate it. Bruce arrives in Lyon, France with the passport Victoria sent him, he is spirited away to Switzerland, where he stays for "weeks," and leaves during the first or second night of the full moon as the Hulk. He then awakens as Bruce in the forests of Italy, where he meets Jack Russell, and after the second or third night of the full moon, Jack leaves Bruce enough money to return home.

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Oct 25, 2008 9:14 pm 
By Enda80

"Anyone familiar enough with Hulk to place him in Europe? I am aware of H 136, 144-146, but these stories were all published in 1971 before the Monster was found frozen in FMON 12."

The Hardcover Handbook seems to state that FM's 1970's published adventure took place in the absolute 1970's, not the modern era, even though the Book of the Vishanti in Doc III#37 stated that they took place in the modern era after the events of Silver Surfer I#7.

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Oct 27, 2008 7:26 pm 
By Somebody
Director

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
HULK MONSTER-SIZE SPECIAL #1/3 (HMSS 1/3)
"Goom's Fairy Tales"
2 pages

Characters: Goom, Googam
Cameos: Hulk, Rorgg, Tim Boo Ba, Goliath, Lo Karr, Fin Fang Foom

Synopsis:
(1-2). Goom tells his young son Googam scary stories about the Hulk beating up monsters (Rorgg, Tim Boo Ba, Goliath, Lo Karr, Fin Fang Foom). A voice from the other room yells him to stop. The young Googam goes to scared. One day, probably evening (possibly in the cave where Goom left Googam was depicted in TOS 17).

Notes: This is a humorous piece that may or may not be canon. There is no real reason not to include it I figure...
<<<

I think this one may have to be "not canon" because of Fin Fang Four. In that one, Googam is captured by the EARLY Fantastic Four, and only released in the present day, shrunk down and hating the F4 for shoving him on Monster Isle for a decade and not letting him conquer everything in the name of GOOM! (and the TOS 17 Googam story is referenced therein).

			*	*	*

Thread 32

Subject: AGE OF THE SENTRY #2 (w/ Carol Danvers and Silver Age)

Oct 18, 2008 2:48 am 
By wolframbane

Here is my review of AGE OF THE SENTRY #2. Note that AOS 1 and AOS 2/2 appear to be framing stories involving a father tellings his son a bedtime story about Sentry.

AGE OF THE SENTRY #2
November 2008
"Ursus the Ultra-Bear"
10 pages

Characters: Sentry (Robert Reynolds), Sentress (Carol Danvers, later Ms. Marvel), J. Jonah Jameson, Joseph "Robbie" Robertson, Truman Capote, Lolly, Harrison Oogar, Bear Radley, Harper (Lee?)
Villains: Cranio, Ursus

Synopsis:
(1:2-6) USAF officers Carol Danvers (the future Ms. Marvel) and Lolly visit the World's Fair in Flushing Meadows, as Sentry arrives after stopping an earthquake from destroying the Great Wall of China. The Sentry meets Truman Capote, a guest journalist with the Daily Bugle, and Harrison Oogar, the Caveman of Wall Street. Cranio, disguised as a ringleader, has his bear Ursus attack Carol, but Sentry hits the bear with his solar blasts. The blasts affect Ursus (chemically modified by Cranio) who mutates and becomes a giant monster. Sentry and the Sentress (actually Carol Danvers) battle Ursus and Cranio, who soon flee, and Capote writes a scathing article about Sentry. Daytime.
(5:2)-FB Cranio discovers a moon in the Antares star system which has radiation which creates giant animals. Flashback. 
(5:3)-FB Cranio purchases Ursus the bear from a circus that is closing down. Flashback. 
(7-8:1) Ursus heads northeast to feed in the ocean. Sentry unsuccessfully battles Ursus and Cranio. Daytime, setting sun. "Later...", probably same day.
(8:2) Sentry battles Ursus several more times, including by an Egyptian pyramid and by a city skyscraper. Four headlines from Daily Bugle. Assuming the Daily Bugle only publishes once a day, this would mean at least four more days have passed. If the Daily ugle runs to press more than once per day, perhaps less time (anyone know for sure?).
(8:3-9:3) Sentry arrives at the Daily Bugle and briefly encounters J. Jonah Jameson and "Robbie" Robertson. He talks to Capote, who has been writing scathing articles about him. Capote relates his childhood trauma about bears, which gives Sentry an idea. After meeting Sentry, Capote is inspired to write 'In Gold Blood' (his novel 'In Cold Blood'). Daytime.
(8:6-9:1)-FB Truman Capote describes how, when he was a child, a demented local named Bear Radley dressed up as a bear on Halloween and chased him and his friend Harper. Harper was inspired by this event to write a novel (apparently Harper was actually Harper Lee and the book was 'To Kill a Mockingbird'). Capote was left with a fear of bears and passed out whenever one was even mentioned, and he tried to work through his fear by writing 'Breakfast at Tiffany's'. Flashback.
(9:4-10) Sentry and Sentress lure an attacking Ursus to a cave in Antarctica, where the cold weather causes Ursus to instinctively enter hibernation for hundreds of years. Probably same day.
NOTES: Aprroximately six days.
"The World's Fair at Flushing Meadows" is a topical reference to the historical 1964/1965 World's Fair, which occurred from April 22 to October, 1964, and April to October 17, 1965. I would suggest placing this event sometime between April to October. 
The appearance of Carol Danvers as Sentress would seem to occur after she first gained her powers from the Psyche-Magnitron in Captain Marvel #16-18 (1968), but before she left the Air Force and NASA, and before she became Ms. Marvel in Ms. Marvel #1 (1977). Cranio mentions "your powers seem to originate differently than the Sentry's". The appearance of Jonah and Robbie is also likely before JJ offers her a job with WOMAN magazine in Ms. Marvel #1.
This appears to be, to the best of my knowledge, the first appearance of Truman Capote and Harper Lee in the MU. His counterpart on Duckworld was Truman Capoultry who first appeared in Howard the Duck v2 #4. Capote's fear of bears may have been inspired by reporter Stephen Colbert's infamous fear of bears.
The Antares star system also appears in Speed Carter #6 (w/ the Scorpeople of 2075), and Astonishing #56/2 (w/ Kartu Kon).


AGE OF THE SENTRY #2/3
November 2008
"The Secret of Area B"
10 pages

Characters: Sentry, Watchdog, Scout, Ant-Man, Captain America, Cyclops, Daredevil, Dr. Strange, Dum Dum Dugan, Hulk, Human Torch II, Invisible Girl, Iron Man I, Marvel Girl, Mr. Fantastic, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Spider-Man, Thing, Thor, Wasp, Colonel Nick Fury of SHIELD AND Sgt. Nick Fury of the Howling Commandos
Villains: Super-Collider, Cranio

Synopsis:
(1:2-3:2) Sentry and Watchdog are on patrol and the Sentry briefly encounters Spider-Man, Thor and Quicksilver, but they all avoid him. Daytime.
(3:3-7:2) Sentry (w/ Watchdog) talks to Scout about how numerous heroes (X-Men, Dr. Strange, Iron Man, Ant-Man and Hulk) have been avoiding him. Scout leaves and Sentry happens across a battle between the FF and the Super-Collider ("a top-notch Soviet scientist who harnessed the secret of atomic power for his own evil ends"). Sentry and the FF defeat the villain, and Reed asks the Sentry to watch him as they depart in the Fantasticar. As SHIELD (w/ Fury and Dugan) arrive to take Super-Collider into custody, Sentry finds a folder left behind by Sue labeled 'Area B', which reveals a conspiracy involving numerous heroes to avoid him. Daytime, "a week later" (possibly seven days later).
(7:3-10) Sentry and Watchdog observe as numerous heroes enter a brownstone, when Dr. Strange comes out and yells at him for help. Sentry enters and finds they are throwing him a surprise birthday party (which includes Scout, Ant-Man, Captain America, Cyclops, Daredevil, Dr. Strange, Hulk, Human Torch II, Invisible Girl, Iron Man I, Marvel Girl, Mr. Fantastic, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Spider-Man, Thing, Thor, Wasp, and TWO Nick Fury's). When confronted with both the modern Colonel Fury and WWII era Sgt. Fury, Sentry realizes that something is wrong, and the partygoers briefly fade, Sentry appears as he does many years later (without his mask and long blond hair), and Cranio (also appearing much different) appears, but things quickly revert back to the party and Sentry appears to have no memory of the event. "Two days later." Nighttime, full moon, trees with leaves. 

NOTES: Approximately 10 days, ending the night of a full moon. The final night is Sentry's birthday.

The shift in reality at the end of the story appears to be a foreshadow of things to come, which will probably be revealed in later issues.

Placement for this story is complex. This is an early gathering of a large number of Silver Age heroes (such as in FF 25-26, FF 28, FF 36, FF@ 3, UX 9 and MARVELS 2), many of whom may or may not have encountered one another before. Below are some placement notes:
Sentry once fought alongside Thor against Zarrko, so after Journey Into Mystery #86 (1962), this was jokingly referred to as occuring in Journey Into Mystery Summer Special #3.
Quicksilver is an Avenger and has his green costume, so between Avengers #16 (1965) and #75 (1970).
Scarlet Witch still wore her full 'chin' headband, so before she used her 'chinless' headband in Avengers #36 (1967)
Henry Pym is still Ant-Man, so before Tales to Astonish #49 (1963).
Wasp wears her original costume with the 'pointy' skullcap, so before Tales to Astonish #59 (1964).
Captain America is awake, so after Avengers #4 (1964).
Marvel Girl still wears her full cowl, so before Uncanny X-Men #25 (1966).
Iron Man appears to be wearing his Mk III armor, so between Tales of Suspense #56 (1964) and #85 (1967).
Fury and Dugan work for SHIELD, so after Strange Tales #135 (1965).
Daredevil is "that new guy" and wears his yellow and red costume, so between Daredevil #1 (1964) and #6 (1965), Daredevil also has the single 'D' on his chest (as in earlier issues) rather than the 'DD'. The reference to "First issue out now! Guest-starring Spider-Man!" is probably an error.
Sentry has never met Spider-Man before, so before Sentry/Spider-Man #1-FB (2001).
Sentry is friends with the Hulk, so after Sentry/Hulk #1-FB (2001).
Sentry has apparently met the X-Men before, so after Sentry/X-Men #1-FB (2001).
Sentry already knows the FF, so after Sentry/Fantastic Four #1-FB (2001).
The FF are in their 'classic' costumes, and Thing appears in his 'lumpy rock' form. Does anyone know when Ben developed his more familiar 'rocky plate' appearance, and if he ever reverted back to the lumpy appearance circa 1964-1966? 
Invisible Girl is still rather ineffectual ("Oh Reed! My darling! be careful! If something were to happen to you...").

Anyone care to give this a shot to narrow down placement?

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Oct 18, 2008 9:15 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Wolframbane, there are obvious contradictions in chronological placement in this story, as you point out in your character-by-character analysis. I suspect what's going on with Fury in this story indicates some kind of temporal anomaly that hopefully will be explained in a future issue. Until we find out what that's about, it may be premature to place AOS 2/2.

The other thing that makes me pause is the framing scenes in AOS. I wonder if those scenes are canonical Earth-616 scenes and if the Sentry stories are actually fictional stories published in Earth-616 comic books. I haven't read anything about this series, so I don't know what's been said about canonicity.

Paul B.

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Oct 18, 2008 4:08 pm 
By dimadick

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
The FF are in their 'classic' costumes, and Thing appears in his 'lumpy rock' form. Does anyone know when Ben developed his more familiar 'rocky plate' appearance, and if he ever reverted back to the lumpy appearance circa 1964-1966? Invisible Girl is still rather ineffectual ("Oh Reed! My darling! be careful! If something were to happen to you...")
<<<

Per reviewer Gregg Allinson the transition was gradual. But "Ben became more "rocky"" as of "Fantastic Four" vol. 1 #21 (December, 1963). The result of combining the artwork of Jack Kirby with the work on new inker George Roussos. 

The depiction of Susan under the pen of Stan Lee tended to include rather stereotypical dialogue and roles. So the dialogue may not be that helpful. Even in her early appearances she has moments of self-confidence andq competent use of her invisibility powers to escape traps or spy on opponents. For example in #3 she instruct the Thing and various troops to fall back and let her take the Miracle Man on her own. "One Invisible Girl can sometimes accomplish more than a battalion!" 

That still does not prevent her playing damsel-in-distress time and again in those stories. Captured by Namor and negotiating marriage terms in #4, held hostage by Dr. Doom in #5. Not to mention appearing overly timid in non-battle situations. In #7 the Four are "going to Washington for a government-sponsored dinner to be held in the FF's honour. " Sue is "worried that during the dinner, she'd get so nervous she'd fade away and "...simply DIE of embarrassment!" "

Her forcefield power was added in 22 (January, 1964). The same issue where the thing first uses the phrase Its clobberin time!" Her powers grow but this does not prevent her being used as a lesser member of the team. In #23, Ben, Johnny and Susan want to replace Reed as leader. But each wants leadership for themselves. Reed shuts them up in minutes. "Now hear this, all of you! If you think I like being the leader of a group of temperamental prima-donna's, you're crazy! But someone's got to do it, and I'm the only one who can stand you!" ... "As far as we know, Doctor Doom is still at large, and he'll never rest until he's destroyed us! I've been trying to trace him... to strike first... while you've thought only of yourselves! Now take these [brooms] and clean this place up! And if anyone wants to quit... you know where the door is!"

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Oct 27, 2008 6:46 am 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Wolframbane, there are obvious contradictions in chronological placement in this story, as you point out in your character-by-character analysis. I suspect what's going on with Fury in this story indicates some kind of temporal anomaly that hopefully will be explained in a future issue. Until we find out what that's about, it may be premature to place AOS 2/2.

The other thing that makes me pause is the framing scenes in AOS. I wonder if those scenes are canonical Earth-616 scenes and if the Sentry stories are actually fictional stories published in Earth-616 comic books. I haven't read anything about this series, so I don't know what's been said about canonicity.
<<<

I would go further and say that it's premature to place the whole series - given the ending of AOS 2/2, this may end up going between two issues of Mighty Avengers as a mindwarp experience rather than something representative of the actual ("Sentry-infected" ) MU past.

As for the framing sequence... that could be a flashforward, and the dad could be the Sentry himself. Or it could be representative of whoever's manipulating him in the guise of Cranio in AOS 2/2. Or it could be fictional stories representative of actual events that the MU denizens still can't quite remember.

For all those reasons, I think placing before the release of AOS 6 is premature.

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Oct 28, 2008 5:46 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
For all those reasons, I think placing before the release of AOS 6 is premature.
<<<

Agreed.

Paul B.

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Oct 28, 2008 3:48 pm 
By Enda80

"Daredevil is "that new guy" and wears his yellow and red costume, so between Daredevil #1 (1964) and #6 (1965), Daredevil also has the single 'D' on his chest (as in earlier issues) rather than the 'DD'. The reference to "First issue out now! Guest-starring Spider-Man!" is probably an error"

Spider-Man appeared on the cover of Daredevil I#1, as did the Fantastic Four; however, that only served as promotional blurbs informing customers that the same company had produced these two other series; neither DD or the FF appeared in the story in Daredevil I#1. Seems as if we have somebody who only looked at the cover again (remember the thread about the Central City/New York confusion and that the Mole Man never got shown as attacking North America in FF I#1?).

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