Whizzer/Robert Frank
Posted by Ron F. on July 05, 2001 at 16:21:39:

Continuing with my expanded chronologies for Golden Age/Timely 
heroes that have been brought into the modern Marvel Universe, 
I submit the following:

WHIZZER I/ROBERT FRANK
M/PRM 29  Liberty Legion
INV 6
M/PRM 30
INV 7
MTIO@1
INV 35  joins Invaders
INV 36
INV 37
INV 38
INV 39
INV 40
INV 41
INV2 1
INV2 2
INV2 3
INV2 4
M/U 1
M/U 2
M/U 3
WI? 4  transition to All-Winners Squad
ALL WINNERS 19  canonical story
WI? 4
ALL WINNERS 21  canonical story
SH2 22

The previous chronology then picks up with the postwar flashback 
in Giant-Size Avengers 1.....
GSA 1-FB

			*	*	*

WOLVERINE VS IRON FIST
Posted by Kevin on July 07, 2001 at 15:25:10:

I was reading all my old x-men comics recently, and in issue #110, 
Wolvie compares Warhawk's style to Iron Fist's.  My Question is 
when did Wolverine fight Iron Fist way back then, I cant find it 
anywhere, so if someone knows, please let me in on it. Thanks!

			*	*	*

Re: WOLVERINE VS IRON FIST
Posted by Jeph! on July 07, 2001 at 16:23:39:
In Reply to: WOLVERINE VS IRON FIST
posted by Kevin on July 07, 2001 at 15:25:10:

> when did Wolverine fight Iron Fist way back then<p>If memory 
serves me right, it was in Iron Fist #15, also written by Chris 
Claremont.  The X-Men guest-starred in the final issue of Iron 
Fist's series.

	-Jeph!
don't ask me to chronologize now, Xena just died!  ::sobs, runs 
to refrigerator::

			*	*	*

Hidden Years and World's Greatest
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 07, 2001 at 17:03:59:

I'm working on revising chronologies as a result of the content of 
two current continuity implant series -- X-Men: The Hidden Years 
and Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Comics Magazine, both of which 
I'm assuming are canon.  It's time to throw out the before and 
after appearances noted in the Marvel Indexes because these series 
change everything, but I believe they do so in a way that still 
makes sense from a continuity perspective.  I'll wait until both 
series are finished to get into specifics, but the way things seem 
to be working is this...

Both series occur during a span of several weeks in November and 
December of Peter Parker's sophomore year in college.  Basically, 
the sequence goes something like this:

XM 54-64
FF 100
FFWGCM 1-12
XM 64-66
FF 101
XMTHY 1-19
XMTHY 20-22 ~ FF 102-104

In essence, the entire tail end of the X-Men's first run is moved 
from early October (as noted in the Official Marvel Indexes) to 
November to make sense out of the interplay between the mutants 
and the FF during the two current series.  Such factors as Angel's 
costume and Havok's and Iceman's presence in FFWGCM 3, the 
synchronous nature of FF 102-104 and XMTHY 20-22, the passage of 
time during the entire XMTHY run, the extra appearances of Magneto 
in XMTHY between XM 63 and FF 102, and the original before and 
after notes in Marvel Index to the Fantastic Four (before they 
were changed by later indexes) were considered in compiling the 
above general chronology. XMTHY 22 is unlikely to alter this 
calculation, although who knows what they'll throw at us during 
the remainder of the run of FFWGCM.  Any reactions from you 
chronologists out there?

			*	*	*

Re: Hidden Years and World's Greatest
Posted by SKleefeld on July 08, 2001 at 09:53:10:
In Reply to: Hidden Years and World's Greatest
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 07, 2001 at 17:03:59:

Personally, I'd long given up on Olshevsky's strict month-by-month 
interpretation. While it was certainly a valid approach, he 
continually had to throw out things like snowfall, holidays, and 
presidencies. I prefers Russ' approach, where he simply lists 
everything in order and ignores trying to force it into a 8 or 10 
year time frame. I think it allows a trueness of sorts that is 
necessary to generate a timeline, but doesn't dwell on the fact 
that we're talking about fiction. Olshevsky, I think, tried to 
totally reconcile reality with fantasy, and it simply cannot be 
done without bringing to light any number of contradictions.

That said, however, I think your X-Men/FF/THY/WGCM compilation 
generally makes sense. The only point I would argue is that I 
believe THY #20 falls better between FF #102 and #103, rather 
than as the tandem idea you've presented. Of course, a nit-picky 
chronology would have to bounce back and forth between FF and 
THY to hit all the events accurately.

- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Hidden Years and World's Greatest
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 08, 2001 at 21:46:05:
In Reply to: Re: Hidden Years and World's Greatest
posted by SKleefeld on July 08, 2001 at 09:53:10:

Thanks for responding, Sean.  My note about XMTHY 20-22 and FF 
102-104 being simultaneous is of course a generalization at this 
point.  I've been charting the interplay panel-by-panel, and this 
will be reflected in my proposals for updates to character 
chronologies once FFWGCM has run its course.

I think it's useful to think about the passage of "Marvel time," 
despite the inevitable "topical references" to which Olshevsky 
and later Indexes refer.  In some cases, plotting stories on a 
calendar helps determine relative chronologies when no other factors 
seem to help.  And one could argue that following a calendar 
(albeit one much slower than "real time") beats the Byrne notion 
of fluid time in which the timing of an event (say, the FF's fateful 
rocket ride) moves forward in time as real time progresses (that 
event used to happen in 1961, now it's sometime in the '80s.)

Too much has happened in the Marvel Universe since 1961, so I don't 
subscribe to the 8 to 10-year rule.  I think it's been around 17 
years since the FF took that ride.  I realize that puts Peter Parker 
in his 30s, but what's wrong with that?

Anyway, I digress.  Thanks again for your feedback on Hidden Years 
and World's Greatest.

			*	*	*

Re: Hidden Years and World's Greatest
Posted by Steve. H on July 09, 2001 at 04:17:53:
In Reply to: Hidden Years and World's Greatest
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 07, 2001 at 17:03:59:

Paul wrote - 

> I'm working on revising chronologies as a result of the content of 
two current continuity implant series -- X-Men: The Hidden Years and 
Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Comics Magazine, both of which I'm 
assuming are canon.  It's time to throw out the before and after 
appearances noted in the Marvel Indexes because these series change 
everything, but I believe they do so in a way that still makes sense 
from a continuity perspective.  I'll wait until both series are 
finished to get into specifics, but the way things seem to be working 
is this...

I've been working on various chronologies recently, and I've found 
it easier to do without George Olshevsky's system that relied on 
Peter Parkers strict time-line.

I've found that even without trying to use Peter Parker as a 
reference point George was at least 98% correct!

Murray Ward seemed to find little wrong with George's work when 
his index's came out in the 90's.

I've ignored any research in regards to the Avengers due to the 
work of George and Murray, but right now I'm reading through issues 
of the DEFENDERS, INCREDIBLE HULK and DOCTOR STRANGE to see if I 
can create a complete chronological picture.

I have more admiration for George and Murray each day, the work 
they did was spectacular - I wish Murray was still doing index 
work.

By the way Paul, I've seen your work on the Avengers Assemble 
sight and its truly impressive, its great to know that there 
are others out there working on there own time to index certain 
books and characters.

The spirit of the 70's fanzines is still alive with a new 
generation.

Good luck Paul, and get ready in the year 3409 for complete 
Defenders chronologies!

			*	*	*

Re: Hidden Years and World's Greatest
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 09, 2001 at 22:01:15:
In Reply to: Re: Hidden Years and World's Greatest
posted by Steve. H on July 09, 2001 at 04:17:53:

Thanks for the kind words about Avengers Year-By-Year, Steve.  An 
update is long overdue, given the number of errors (mostly non-
Avengers I neglected to delete) and recent continuity implants.  
Sometime soon I hope to send Van Plexico an update to the years 
I've already posted.  It's anyone's guess right now when new years 
will be added.  So much to do, so little time to do it.

Although he wasn't always right, and even though new information 
has resulted in constant revision, I think Olshevsky was on the 
right track in trying to plot relative chronologies on a realistic 
timeline.  I find that doing so helps make the stories a bit more 
grounded in "reality," keeping in mind, of course, the fair amount 
of "artistic license" you need to consider with all those "topical 
references."  I'm still confident that there's a workable calendar 
of Marvel Time out there waiting to be plotted.

			*	*	*

Graphic Novel and Flashback questions
Posted by SKleefeld on July 08, 2001 at 10:04:09:

Russ --

Question on the graphic novel listings. What exactly are the titles 
of the graphic novels you have listed? I've got a complete list up 
to #20, but the info I have beyond that is spotty. I mean, if I go 
into a shop and ask for Marvel Graphic Novel #17, how many people 
are going to know that I'm looking for "Revenge of the Living 
Monolith"?

Also, I've found a few instances of listings with two flashback 
notations for the same entry. Is that represntative of a flashback 
within a flashback or is it simply an error?

As always: many thanks, keep up the good work, and best of luck 
to your mom. 

- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Graphic Novel and Flashback questions
Posted by Russ Chappell on July 08, 2001 at 21:56:45:
In Reply to: Graphic Novel and Flashback questions
posted by SKleefeld on July 08, 2001 at 10:04:09:

Here's a partial list:
1. Death of Captain Marvel
2. Elric
3. Dreadstar
4. New Mutants
5. X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills
6. Star Slammers
7. Killraven
8. Super Boxers
9. Futurians
10. Heartburst
11. Void Indigo
12. Dazzler: The Movie
13. Starstruck
14. Swords of the Swashbucklers
15. Raven Banner
16. Aladdin Effect
17. Revenge of the Living Monolith
18. Sensational She-Hulk
19. Conan: Witch Queen of Acheron
20. Greenberg the Vampire
21. Marada the She-Wolf
22. Spider-Man: Hooky
23. Into Shamballa
24. Daredevil: Love & War
25. Dracula: Symphony in Moonlight & Nightmares
26. Alien Legion
27. Emperor Doom
28. Conan the Reaver
29. Hulk & Thing: The Big Change

> Also, I've found a few instances of listings with two flashback 
notations for the same entry. Is that represntative of a flashback 
within a flashback or is it simply an error?

Flashback within a flashback.

			*	*	*

Re: Graphic Novel and Flashback questions
Posted by Randy Tischler on July 12, 2001 at 16:30:54:
In Reply to: Re: Graphic Novel and Flashback questions
posted by Russ Chappell on July 08, 2001 at 21:56:45:

> 25. Dracula: Symphony in Moonlight & Nightmares

Since you posted it, is this the Marvel Universe Dracula?  Or just 
a Dracula story.  I've been meaning to pick it up (I love a lot of 
what Jon J. Muth does), but haven't yet...

There are a good chunk of graphic novels that aren't numbered like 
Cloak & Dagger and Power Pack, Squadron Supreme:  Death of a Universe, 
Night Raven:  House of Cards, and Night Raven:  The Collected Stories, 
uh, Death's Head somethingorother that's actually reprints of that 
title's serialization (don't have that one myself), etc. etc.

Randy

			*	*	*

Re: Graphic Novel and Flashback questions
Posted by Russ Chappell on July 12, 2001 at 21:35:38:
In Reply to: Re: Graphic Novel and Flashback questions
posted by Randy Tischler on July 12, 2001 at 16:30:54:

> Since you posted it, is this the Marvel Universe Dracula?  Or 
just a Dracula story.

I don't have it, but would be a little surprised if it were.

> There are a good chunk of graphic novels that aren't numbered 
like Cloak & Dagger and Power Pack, Squadron Supreme:  Death of 
a Universe, 

Yeah, I think by the time of "The Big Change," and certainly 
by the time of Thor's "I, Whom the Gods Would Destroy" were 
published, they had abandoned the numbering scheme.

			*	*	*

Re: Graphic Novel and Flashback questions
Posted by Andy Holcombe on July 16, 2001 at 21:33:34:
In Reply to: Re: Graphic Novel and Flashback questions
posted by Russ Chappell on July 08, 2001 at 21:56:45:

As an FYI, Into Shamballa stars Dr. Strange; Aladdin Effect stars 
Storm, Wasp, She-Hulk, and Tigra; The Raven Banner is a Tale of 
(Marvel's) Asgard; The Revenge of the Living Monolith features 
Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, and the Avengers; and Emperor Doom 
features the Avengers

Some unnumbered graphic novels (and a few one-shots) include:

Avengers: Deathtrap: The Vault
Black Knight: Exodus
Black Panther: Panther's Prey (4 issues)
Black Widow: The Coldest War
Captain America: The Drug Wars
Captain America: The Medusa Effect
Captain America: The Movie
Captain America/Nick Fury: Blood Truce
Captain Marvel (anti-hate) 
Captain Marvel: Reborn
Captain Marvel: Speaking Without Concern
Cloak and Dagger: Predator and Prey
Cloak & Dagger & Power Pack: Shelter From the Storm
Colossus
Conan and the Ravagers of Time
Conan of the Isles
Conan: The Horn of Azoth
Conan: The Rogue
Conan: The Skull of Set
Conan: The Witch Queen of Acheron
Daredevil/Black Widow: Abattior
Death's Head: The Body in Question
Deathlok (4 issues)
Deadly Hands of Kung Fu
Dr. Strange: What Is It That Disturbs You, Stephen?
Dr. Strange/Dr. Doom: Triumph and Torment
Elektra Lives Again
Excalibur: Air Apparent
Excalibur: Mojo Mayhem
Excalibur: The Possession
Excalibur: The Sword Is Drawn
Excalibur: Weird War 3
Excalibur: XX Crossing
Fantastic Four: The Fantastic Fourth Voyage of Sinbad
Fury
Fury/Black Widow: Death Duty
Ghost Rider/Captain America: Fear
Ghost Rider/Wolverine/Punisher: Dark Design
Ghost Rider/Wolverine/Punisher: Hearts of Darkness
Ghost Riders: Crossroads
Havok & Wolverine: Meltdown (4 issues)
Hercules: Prince of Power: Full Circle
Incredible Hulk: Future Imperfect (2 issues)
Incredible Hulk: Hercules Unleashed
Iron Man: Crash
Kull: The Vale of Shadow
Longshot
Marc Spector: Moon Knight
Master of Kung Fu: Bleeding Black
Moon Knight: Divided We Fall
Nick Fury Vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (6 issues)
Night Raven: House of Cards
Night Raven: The Collected Stories
Power Pack: Holiday Special
Punisher Invades the 'Nam: Final Invasion
Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe
Punisher: A Man Named Frank
Punisher: Assassins' Guild
Punisher: Blood on the Moors
Punisher: Bloodlines
Punisher: Die Hard in the Big Easy
Punisher: Empty Quarter
Punisher: Eye for an Eye
Punisher: G-Force
Punisher: Intruder
Punisher: Kingdom Gone
Punisher: No Escape
Punisher: P.O.V. (4 issues)
Punisher: Return to Big Nothing
Punisher: The Ghosts of Innocents (2 issues)
Punisher: The Movie
Punisher: The Prize
Punisher/Black Widow: Spinning Doomsday's Web
Punisher/Captain America: Blood and Glory
Red Sonja
Ruins (2 issues)
Savage Hulk
She-Hulk: Ceremony (2 issues)
Silver Surfer: Dangerous Artifacts
Silver Surfer: Homecoming
Silver Surfer: Judgement Day
Silver Surfer: The Enslavers
Spider-Man 2099 Meets Spider-Man
Spider-Man: Dead Man's Hand
Spider-Man: Fear Itself
Spider-Man: Man Men
Spider-Man: Parallel Lives
Spider-Man: Soul of the Hunter
Spider-Man: Spirits of the Earth
Spider-Man: The Parker Years
Spider-Man/Dr. Strange: Way to Dusty Death
Spider-Man/Kingpin: To the Death
Spider-Man/Punisher/Sabretooth: Designer Genes
Squadron Supreme: Death of a Universe
Squadron Supreme: New World Order
Strange Tales (Dr. Strange, Human Torch, Thing)
Tales From the Age of Apocalyse: Sinister Bloodline
Tales of Suspense (Captain America & Iron Man)
Tales of the Age of Apocalypse
Tales of the Marvel Universe
Tales of the Marvels: Blockbuster
Tales of the Marvels: Inner Demons
Tales of the Marvels: The Wonder Years
Tales to Astonish (Henry Pym, Hulk, Wasp)
The Last Avengers Story (2 issues)
Thor: I, Whom the Gods Would Destroy
Two-Gun Kid: Sunset Riders
Untold Tales Of Spider-Man: Strange Encounter
Who Framed Roger Rabbit?
Willow
Wolverine: Black Rio
Wolverine: Blood Hungry
>Wolverine: Bloodlust
Wolverine: Doombringer
Wolverine: Evilution
Wolverine: Global Jeopardy
Wolverine: Inner Fury
Wolverine: Jungle Adventure
Wolverine: Killing
Wolverine: Knight of Terror
Wolverine: Rhane of Terror
>Wolverine/Fury: Scorpio Rising
Wolverine/Nick Fury: The Scorpio Connection
Wonder Man
X-Man: All Saint's Day
X-Men 2099: Oasis
X-Men: Magneto War
X-Men: Spotlight on . . . the Starjammers
X-Men: The Movie
X-Men: The Movie: Magneto
X-Men: The Movie: Rogue
X-Men: The Movie: Wolverine

			*	*	*

Re: Graphic Novel and Flashback questions
Posted by Andy Holcombe on July 16, 2001 at 21:52:13:
In Reply to: Re: Graphic Novel and Flashback questions
posted by Andy Holcombe on July 16, 2001 at 21:33:34:

I neglected to mention

Blade: Cresent City Blues
Blade: Sins of the Father (movie prequel)

			*	*	*

Re: Graphic Novel and Flashback questions
Posted by Andy Holcombe</a> on July 16, 2001 at 21:57:13:
In Reply to: Re: Graphic Novel and Flashback questions
posted by Andy Holcombe on July 16, 2001 at 21:33:34:

I also neglected to mention

Eternals: The Herod Factor
Inhumans
Inhumans (Atlantis Rising Prelude)
Inhumans: The Untold Saga
New Eternals: Apoclypse Now

			*	*	*

Re: Graphic Novel, Marvel Oversize
Posted by Andrew Herington on March 12, 2002 at 04:14:56:
In Reply to: Re: Graphic Novel and Flashback questions
posted by Russ Chappell on July 08, 2001 at 21:56:45:

I found this while doing my own research into Marvels old Oversize 
line of books. It appears that I have a more complete list. Here is 
what I have confirmed so far.

1: The Death of Captain Marvel
2: Elric The Dreaming City
3: Dreadstar
4: The New Mutants
5: X-MenGod Loves, Man Kills
6: Star Slammers
7: Killraven Warrior of the Worlds
8: Super Boxers
9: Futurians
10: Heartburst
11: Void Indigo
12: Dazzler The Movie
13: Starstruck
14: Swords of the Swashbucklers
15: The Raven Banner, A Tale of Asgard
16: The Aladdin Effect
17: Revenge of the Living Monolith
18: The Sensational She-Hulk
19: Conan the BarbarianThe Witch Queen of Acheron
20: Greenberg the Vampire
21: Marada the She-Wolf
22: Spider-ManHooky
23: Dr. StrangeInto Shamballa
24: DaredevilLove & War
25: DraculaA Symphony in Moonlight & Nightmares
26: Alien LegionGrey Death
27: AvengersEmperor Doom
28: Conan the Barbarian - Conan the Reaver
29: Hulk & ThingBig Change
30: A Sailors Story
31: Wolfpack
32: ThorI, Whom the God's Would Destroy
33: Moebius
34: Death of Groo
35: The ShadowHitler's Astronomer HC
36: Cloak & DaggerPredator & Prey
37: Iron Man: Crash
38: Willow
39: Last of the Dragons
40: Silver Surfer Judgement Day HC
41: Incal Series
42: Someplace Strange HC
43: HerculesFull Circle
44: Inhumans
45: Punisher Assassin's Guild
46: Who Framed Roger Rabbit
47: Ax
48: Unknown
49: Unknown
50: Unknown
51: Dr. Strange & Dr. DoomTriumph & Torment
52: Rick Mason, the Agent
53: Nick Fury/Wolverine Scorpio Connection (HC)
54: Unknown
55: Unknown
56: Unknown
57: PowerPack/Cloak & Dagger Shelter from the Storm
58: Unknown
59: Neuromancer v.1
60: Squadron Supreme: Death of a Universe
61: Ka-zar, Guns of the Savage Land
62: Black Widow, The Coldest War

This is a list of Oversize that are all printed after #62 but 
their exact number isn't known yet:

Jhereg
X-Men: Animation Special
Spider-Man: Fear Itself
Wolverine: Bloody Choices
Excalibur: Weird War III
Avengers: DeathTrap the Vault

And Finally here is a list of oversize that could be before or 
after #62;

67 Seconds
A Sailor's Story 2: Winds, Dreams & Dragons
Arena
Dreamwalker
Roger Rabbit, The Resurrection of Doom
Spider-Man: Parallel Lives
Spider-Man: Spirits of the Earth HC
Punisher: Black WidowSpinning Doomday's Web
Punisher: Blood on the Moors  HC
Punisher: Intruder  HC
Punisher: Kingdom Gone  HC
Punisher: Return to Big Nothing  HC
Silver Surfer: Enslavers, The  HC

Also the UK Oversize are not part of this list since they have a 
different ISBN #. Confirmed are:

The Chronicles of Genghis Grimtoad
NightRaven The Collected Stories
NightRaven House of Cards

			*	*	*

Sub-Mariner before FF#4
Posted by Ron F. on July 09, 2001 at 00:20:38:

I would like to submit the following incomplete listing of the 
expanded chronological appearances of the Sub-Mariner prior to 
his resurrection in Fantastic Four #4.  All stories are either 
Marvel Age stories that have been retroactively added to the 
continuity, or they are actual Golden Age stories that have been 
referenced and accepted into the canon.  Please read the notes 
following this chronology, also.

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE

Motion Pictures Funnies Weekly
MARVEL COMICS 1   "original" 1939 origin 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 32-FB  Golden Age origin flashback
YOUNG MEN 24-FB  1950s origin flashback 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 33-FB   1950s origin flashback
FF@1-FB   first Silver Age origin flashback
SUB-M 1   second Silver Age origin flashback
SUB-M 38  third Silver Age origin flashback
SAGASM 1  compilation of origins 

As a boy and teenager, aged 10 to 17, the Sub-Mariner was featured 
in seven stories from the 1950s.  They have been accepted into the 
canon, for the most part, but I have not yet researched each one, 
and put them in order.  They are, however, covered in the following 
issue:

SAGASM 2

Then comes the Sub-Mariner's discovery and confrontation with the 
"surface dwellers":

MARVEL COMICS 1
SAGASM 2

Then follows his early adventures:

MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3  Betty Dean introduced 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4  first battle with Nazis
SAGASM 2
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8  first battle with Human Torch
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 9  battle with Torch continues
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS10  battle concludes (one page)
SAGASM 4

Then follows a sampling of Golden Age stories in which the Sub-Mariner 
teams up with the Human Torch and battles the Nazis:

SUB-MARINER COMICS 1  battles the Nazis (w/o Torch)
SAGASM 5
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 17  team-up w/Torch in Alaska
SAGASM 5
HUMAN TORCH COMICS 5  second team-up w/Torch

Somewhere in this timeframe, Sub-Mariner kidnaps Pres. Franklin 
Roosevelt and flies him to the Azores, where he is rescued by
Captain America and Bucky. This story was written recently to 
properly "document" the Sub-Mariner and Cap's first meeting.  

CA ?

Then follows the Sub-Mariner's involvement with the Invaders:

GSINV 1
INV 1
INV 2
INV 31-FB
INV 3
INV 4
INV 5
M/PRM 29
INV 6
M/PRM 30
FF@11
MTIO@ 1-BTS
MTIO 20-BTS
INV 7
INV 8
INV 9
INV 10
INV 11
INV 12
INV 13
INV 14
INV 15
INV@ 1
A 71
INV@ 1
INV 16
INV 17
INV 18
INV 19
INV 20
INV 21
INV 23
INV 24
INV 25
INV 26
INV 27
INV 28
INV 29
INV 30
INV 31
INV 32
INV 33
INV 34
INV 35
INV 36
INV 37
INV 38
INV 39
INV 40
INV 41
SAGASM 5
INV2 1
INV2 2
INV2 3
INV2 4
CA:SL2 2-FB
CA:SL2 2
CA:SL2 3
CA:SL2 4
M/U 1-FB
M/U 1
M/U 2
M/U 3
CLAND 8-FB

The war then comes to a close and the Invaders change their name 
to the All-Winners Squad:

WI? 4
ALL WINNERS 19
SUBMARINER COMICS 21  battle with Card Killers 
WI? 4
ALL WINNERS 20
WI/ 4
SAGASM 6
SH2 22-FB She-Hulk flashback

Then comes a series of late 1940s and early 1950s stories that 
have been accepted into the canon or have been alluded to:

MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82 first Namora
NAMORA COMICS 1-4

YOUNG MEN 24  1950s return
SUBMARINER COMICS 34 Betty's birthday story
SUBMARINER COMICS 38 regains full powers

Then comes a number of issues that try to explain the years between 
the early 1950s and the time he is resurrected in the Marvel Age:

SUB-M2 1-FB
SUB-M 1-FB  Destiny
ASM -1  Sub-Mariner as an amnesiac in the Bowery
TB-1
SUB-M 1-FB
TM:ID
FF  4
TM:ID
SUB-M 1-FB

His chronology then picks up as previously listed.

A few notes:

1.  Bill Everett, the creator of Sub-Mariner, worked periodically 
for almost forty years on his creation, and for the most part,left 
a well-written selection of stories, that had remarkable 
chronological continuity.  This is primarily due to the "serial" 
method of many of his stories: many stories ended and began with 
a reference to the preceding or following story.

2.  I have not yet obtained copies of the following issues and 
therefore have not added them to this expanded chronology:

N 20-FB
N@ 2/2
M/:LG 3 & 7
CA ?  featuring the story of Roosevelt and Cap

When I have these issues I will post a follow-up.

Thanks, 
Ron

			*	*	*

Namora series
Posted by MyWords on August 03, 2001 at 15:41:19:
In Reply to: Sub-Mariner before FF#4
posted by Ron F. on July 09, 2001 at 00:20:38:

> Then comes a series of late 1940s and early 1950s stories that 
have been accepted into the canon or have been alluded to:

> MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82 first Namora
> NAMORA COMICS 1-4

Namora actually only lasted three issues, according to several 
sources, most notably Les Daniels's Marvel book. Do you have this 
fourth issue?

MyWords

			*	*	*

Re: Namora series
Posted by Ron F. on August 15, 2001 at 23:02:55:
In Reply to: Namora series
posted by MyWords on August 03, 2001 at 15:41:19:

> Namora actually only lasted three issues, according to several 
sources, most notably Les Daniels's Marvel book. Do you have this 
fourth issue?

Must have been a typo on my part.  My notes say 1 to 3. Thanks!

			*	*	*

Phantom Eagle
Posted by joe on July 10, 2001 at 12:43:27:

Phantom Eagle appeared in Ghost Rider (the 70's run)#12.

			*	*	*

Fix IM Chronology
Posted by John on July 11, 2001 at 03:02:29:

Ok, here go's:

Tales of Suspense Vol 2:
TOS2 cannot fall inbetween IM 312 as that is the final issue of 
the "Hands of the Mandarin" storyline and within that story, there 
is no break of continuity to allow for the Tales of Suspense 
adventure. The TOS adventure is more justifiably placed after IM 
312

Therefore, on this, the new chronology should read:
WARM 10 / IM 312 / TOS2 / WARM 11-BTS / etc...

War Machine listing:
Before WARM 1 should be a few IM appearances & guest appearances 
that fall under WAR MACHINE/JAMES R. "JIM" "RHODEY" RHODES that may 
coincide under Rhodey's IM appearances, but for the time being, the 
following appearances should fall under the above title listing 
before WARM 1, and in the following order:

IM 284 / IM 285/ IM 286 / IM 287 / IM 288 / IM 289 / IM 290 / IM 291 / 
IM 299 / IM 300 / XFOR 20 / XFOR 21 / XFOR 22 / and then WARM 1

As an additional note, IM:BB shouldn't even appear under this listing 
as although James Rhodes appeared in the story, he didn't appear as 
War Machine.  If these books are to be listed to include Rhodey, the 
should fall under Rhodey's listing as Iron Man as that also 
encompasses his highlights before he put on the armor as he was just 
Tony's pal.

Iron Man Armor:
Maybe you should change this heading to Iron Man Sentient Armor.
The listing is missing a hard to find chapter of the "Mask in the 
Iron Man" story, which falls in continuity for the armor and NOT 
for Tony Stark as listed in his chronology. The listing for this 
should read:
IM3 26 / IM3 27 / IM3 28 / IM3 29~NW2 9 / IM3 29
During IM3 29, the armor leaves to answer an Avengers distress call, 
the story proceeds to follow Tony as he builds traps for the rogue 
armor, by the end of the book the armor returns and the story resumes. 
New Warriors 9 shows the tale of where the armore went when he left 
Tony on the island in the middle of IM 29, therefore the above 
chronology is correct.  In addition to this, the New Warriors tale 
shouldn't be in Tony's chronology as he didn't appear in that book, 
only the sentient armor did.

Acts of Vengeance:
Realizing the trouble w. AOV, that's all I can currently give you 
is what I believe to be the bookends for the story:
ASPOT 26 as the begining, and ASPOT 29 as the end as the cover states 
that that book is the epilogue to AOV.

-I realize that some of these fall into the "gap", but they can be 
easily inserted into the I.M. related chronologies, after all, every 
time you accurately add a book, you are one book closer to accurate 
detailing of your awesome project.  I hope these help you along, and 
I look forward to seeing them posted on your great site.  More to 
come soon, I have so much I.M stuff it's nuts.  Do you plan to ever 
list other universe appearances, like What If?, or the Amalgamverse, 
or any other misc stuff?

Oh, I just thought of one more neat idea, in IM 150 he goes back to 
the past w/ Merlin and Dr. Doom (like the 1300's or something) maybe 
you should list this as the very first book on the IM list, as it 
takes place some 700 years before hand.  Not to mention IM 250, 
which should technically be the last book on the last as he spends 
some time in like 3020 or something, the time frame fits, after all, 
this is a chronology, right??? (I can't wait to see how you handle 
Armageddon 2001 when you do DC!!!)

Talk to ya.....
-John-
Toasty!!!!!

			*	*	*

Re: Fix IM Chronology
Posted by Russ Chappell on July 11, 2001 at 21:49:16:
In Reply to: Fix IM Chronology
posted by John on July 11, 2001 at 03:02:29:

> Do you plan to ever list other universe appearances, like What 
If?, or the Amalgamverse, or any other misc stuff?

Um....to some extent. We've recently added a Killraven Mythos page, 
and will probably follow it with New Universe, Age of Apocalypse, 
Guardians of the Galaxy, 2099, and MC2.

> Oh, I just thought of one more neat idea, in IM 150 he goes back 
to the past w/ Merlin and Dr. Doom (like the 1300's or something) 
maybe you should list this as the very first book on the IM list, 
as it takes place some 700 years before hand.  Not to mention IM 
250, which should  technically be the last book on the last as he 
spends some time in like 3020 or something, the time frame fits, 
after all, this is a chronology,

Correct, but it's not a timeline, nor a chronology of the Marvel 
Universe. Iron Man's listing is intended to show the character's 
chronology from his perspective, so his appearance in IM 250 would 
fit solidly between issues 249 and 251. Even though he travels in 
time, from his perspective, these events occur after IM 249, not 
before he's born.

> right??? (I can't wait to see how you handle Armageddon 2001 
when you do DC!!!)

You'll *have* to wait. We don't do DC.

			*	*	*

Point of Interest...
Posted by Kevin on July 11, 2001 at 16:52:08:

In Avengers Annual #10, Rouge's first appearance, when Spider-
Woman is waiting for news of the "Jane Doe" (Carol Danvers) you 
see a little girl introduce herself as Maddy Pryor...hmmmmm...
"Maddy"?  "Pryor"?  Innocent coincidence, or something more?

			*	*	*

Re: Point of Interest...
Posted by Russ Chappell on July 11, 2001 at 21:55:42:
In Reply to: Point of Interest...
posted by Kevin on July 11, 2001 at 16:52:08:

Most likely, the former. Let me head this one off at the pass. 
Yes, everyone, I know that Claremont said in an interview somewhere 
that the two characters are not connected. I'd just like to see it 
mentioned in a Marvel story before I remove the listing.

			*	*	*

Okay. I need info on a really OBSCURE character. "Thunderbolts 54 
SPOILERS"
Posted by Zevad on July 14, 2001 at 16:31:51:

So just in case you're a fan of T-bolts and DO NOT want to be 
spoiled as to the identity of HS-1 please turn away now.

Spoiler Space

Okay turns out H.S. 1 is some obscure chracter that showed up in 
the fan magazine F.O.O.M! and is called HUMUS SAPIEN. Anyone have 
info on this most obscure character? It would increase a fellow 
fan's knowledge. So please help me out if you can. Thanks in advance. 

			*	*	*

Re: Okay. I need info on a really OBSCURE character. "Thunderbolts 54 
SPOILERS"
Posted by Sean Curtin on July 14, 2001 at 20:04:35:
In Reply to: Okay. I need info on a really OBSCURE character. 
"Thunderbolts 54 SPOILERS"
posted by Zevad on July 14, 2001 at 16:31:51:

I think the most pertinent information to include here would be 
that the revelation was a joke.  I mean, Humus Sapiens?  Does he 
have the proportional strength & speed of humus?

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: Okay. I need info on a really OBSCURE character. "Thunderbolts 54 
SPOILERS"
Posted by jhowse on July 18, 2001 at 08:19:05:
In Reply to: Re: Okay. I need info on a really OBSCURE character. 
"Thunderbolts 54 SPOILERS"
posted by Sean Curtin on July 14, 2001 at 20:04:35:

Well, believe it or not, I got the new issue of Wizard yesterday 
and there was a write-up about the new addition to the book.  It 
had a picture of Humus Sapiens and went on to say that his creator 
(who is a known name but I can't think of who it is right now) beat 
out the likes of Alex Ross himself in a contest to create a character 
in FOOM magazine.  Of course, if this one won, I'd hate to see the 
others...

			*	*	*

Re: Okay. I need info on a really OBSCURE character. "Thunderbolts 54 
SPOILERS"
Posted by Andy Holcombe on July 21, 2001 at 18:39:02:
In Reply to: Re: Okay. I need info on a really OBSCURE character. 
"Thunderbolts 54 SPOILERS"
posted by jhowse on July 18, 2001 at 08:19:05:

I think that the text pieces in this and the next issues of 
Thunderbolts has all of the public information.

			*	*	*

Fantastic Fourth Voyage of Sinbad
Posted by SKleefeld on July 17, 2001 at 09:28:43:

I was doing some research for my own site, and thought I'd share 
some findings here. Maybe save Russ a little work when he gets to 
analyzing the issue.

Clearly it takes place after FF #24v3 since Franklin and Valeria 
are visiting from Haven. Reed is then trapped in the Doom armor 
from #25 to #31. And Pier 4 blows up in #35. FF #33 and 34 run 
back-to-back, so we've actually got a fairly small window to work 
with: FFVoS can fit immediately after FF #31, 32 or 34.

I propose putting it directly after FF #34v3. In every FF appearance 
following that issue (Thunderbolts, Peter Parker, Sentry, and 
Fantastic Four), Sue and Johnny return to more uniform-style 
costumes. Since they are forced to change costumes in Voyage and 
clearly do not continue to wear them afterwards, it makes sense 
that they would take that time to return to a more uniformed group 
visual there, rather than switch to what they were wearing before, 
only to change it again at some point later.

- Sean

			*	*	*

Doesn't anyone 'round here like the Microns?;-)
Posted by Gary M. Miller on July 17, 2001 at 19:14:20:

Hey Russ & co.,

Just curious about something...I decided to look up entries for the 
Micronauts and found, well, only their appearances from Cable (not 
paying attention to what issue) and up.  Plus at least Acroyear 
doesn't even have an entry.  I just finished picking up the 
Micronauts series (well, minus 2 books) today, and I know it's a 
mainstream Marvel Universe book, and I saw that some super heroes 
who guest-starred do have entries...what about filling in the rest 
of the Microns' appearances?  Anyone up for it or am I all alone 
here?

Thanx,

-Gary M.

			*	*	*

Who won in a battle between Hulk and Stranger?
Posted by Super-me on July 23, 2001 at 05:11:00:

Could any one tell me who actually won between Hulk and Stranger?
I can't truly remember which issue was it,but it was one of Hulk's 
earliest issues!

Thanks ,Super-me

			*	*	*

Re: Who won in a battle between Hulk and Stranger?
Posted by John-Toasty!! on July 23, 2001 at 16:00:45:
In Reply to: Who won in a battle between Hulk and Stranger?
posted by Super-me on July 23, 2001 at 05:11:00:

I don't know who won, but there is no way in hell the Hulk could 
take the stranger, just read Quasar, Journey Into Mystery in early 
Q issues...

			*	*	*

Actuall they fought in one of Hulk's issuesand the Hulk won!
Posted by Dragon on July 24, 2001 at 05:17:52:
In Reply to: Re: Who won in a battle between Hulk and Stranger?
posted by John-Toasty!! on July 23, 2001 at 16:00:45:

Hulk did defeat Stranger,I just cant remember in which issue.
I had that comic book.I should check out which issues was it in 
Hulk's library!

			*	*	*

Re: Actuall they fought in one of Hulk's issuesand the Hulk won!
Posted by Michel on July 24, 2001 at 14:51:15:
In Reply to: Actuall they fought in one of Hulk's issuesand the Hulk 
won!
posted by Dragon on July 24, 2001 at 05:17:52:

That should be in Tales To Astonish #89

			*	*	*

Re: Actuall they fought in one of Hulk's issuesand the Hulk won!
Posted by John on July 25, 2001 at 21:38:37:
In Reply to: Re: Actuall they fought in one of Hulk's issuesand the 
Hulk won!
posted by Michel on July 24, 2001 at 14:51:15:

Man, I thought that this was just, you know, comic nerd debate!!! 
I HAD to give my comic nerd opinion, and then there you go, and 
prove me wrong

-sigh-

			*	*	*

Re: Actuall they fought in one of Hulk's issuesand the Hulk won!
Posted by Michel on July 26, 2001 at 13:06:33:
In Reply to: Re: Actuall they fought in one of Hulk's issuesand the 
Hulk won!
posted by John on July 25, 2001 at 21:38:37:

I'm not sure I'm following you here... you think you were wrong 
because you mentioned the Hulk serie instead of Tales To Astonish ?

If it's that, that's not really a mistake, since Hulk appearead in 
TTA in between the #6 and the #102 of his own serie :-)

Michel

Typhoid Mary vs. Sir
Posted by Andy Holcombe on July 25, 2001 at 16:19:16:

There's a scene from Daredevil: The Man Without Fear in which 
Daredevil invades a bordello and is assualted by the prostitutes.  
Because he's reeling from a sensory overload, he accidentally 
throws one of them out the window.  During his run on Daredevil, 
J.M. DeMatties (~344-350) expanded on this scene and used it for 
the origin of Sir.  Later on, Joe Kelly in the Daredevil/Deadpool 
Annual used the same scene as part of the origin of Typhoid Mary.  
While this doesn't nessessarily mean anything, Ann Nocenti does 
not mention this scene (or I believe, any prostitution on Typhoid's 
part) in the Typhoid series.  Just wondering what y'all's thoughts 
on reconsiliationg this apparent discrepancy.  Personally, I think 
that either DD threw out two prostitutes or Typhoid somehow knew 
about it and tried to use it against DD.  Sir's origin is just 
too tied into it to work otherwise.

			*	*	*

Re: Typhoid Mary vs. Sir
Posted by Sean Curtin on July 25, 2001 at 21:32:33:
In Reply to: Typhoid Mary vs. Sir
posted by Andy Holcombe on July 25, 2001 at 16:19:16:

I think the best explination is that Typhoid has some unconscious 
telepathic ability that she subliminally used to see one of Matt's 
worst memories.  Given that she's unhinged already, her manufacturing 
a false memory to add more trauma to her "Mary" persona seems 
somewhat plausible.

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Is DAREDEVIL: MAN WITHOUT FEAR Canon?
Posted by ShadZ on July 26, 2001 at 16:12:47:
In Reply to: Typhoid Mary vs. Sir
posted by Andy Holcombe on July 25, 2001 at 16:19:16:

Is DAREDEVIL: MAN WITHOUT FEAR cannon?  [checks Key, sees it listed]  
Guess Russ thinks so . . .

The reason I ask is recently on rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe, 
people were asking about inconsistancies between DAREDEVIL: MAN 
WITHOUT FEAR and DAREDEVIL: YELLOW, and several people who should 
know (Kurt Busik and Tom Brevoot) said that DAREDEVIL: MAN WITHOUT 
FEAR is not cannon, and never was.  Frank Miller originally wrote 
it as a movie treatment (which was not cannon, of course), and 
when he changed it into a comic book mini-series, he did not do 
any continunity checking to make it jibe with the MU . . .

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Re: Is DAREDEVIL: MAN WITHOUT FEAR Canon?
Posted by Jhaeman on July 27, 2001 at 06:11:38:
In Reply to: Is DAREDEVIL: MAN WITHOUT FEAR Canon?
posted by ShadZ on July 26, 2001 at 16:12:47:

In "Marvel Universe," Peter Sanderson calles Man Without Fear "an 
anomaly in the Marvel canon" because it was the first time a major 
character's origin was considerably revised.  However, he does treat 
it as canon, as opposed to (for example) his explicit allegation 
that Elektra Lives Again is not continuity.  

I don't think it resolves the question, but just thought I'd mention 
it (and plug Sanderson's great book!)

			*	*	*

Re: Is DAREDEVIL: MAN WITHOUT FEAR Canon?
Posted by Randy Tischler on July 29, 2001 at 17:56:59:
In Reply to: Re: Is DAREDEVIL: MAN WITHOUT FEAR Canon?
posted by Jhaeman on July 27, 2001 at 06:11:38:

I don't have this book (and am unfamiliar with it -- is that the 
oversized coffee-table hardcover book with Spider-Man on the cover?), 
but I'm curious as to why Elektra Lives Again isn't considered 
in-continuity.  Any help?

Randy

			*	*	*

Re: Is DAREDEVIL: MAN WITHOUT FEAR Canon?
Posted by ShadZ on July 29, 2001 at 20:05:42:
In Reply to: Re: Is DAREDEVIL: MAN WITHOUT FEAR Canon?
posted by Randy Tischler on July 29, 2001 at 17:56:59:

> I'm curious as to why ELEKTRA LIVES AGAIN isn't considered 
in-continuity.  Any help?

When Fran Miller wrote it, he wanted it to be his final take on 
Elektra, without having to worry about matching current DAREDEVIL 
contunity (i.e. the stuff that happened since he wrote Daredevil), 
and with the freedom to take the story wherever he wanted.  So 
Marvel let him, and at the time it was released it didn't quite 
fit in to DDs timeline anywhere, and as time has gone on it's 
gotten more obvious it's not in continunity (no one had ever 
explained how Bullseye recovered from his decapatation, for 
example).

When asked in interviews, Frank Miller will say that -- for MU 
continunity purposes -- only the opening pages happened, and 
the rest can be considered Matt Murdock's fever dream . . . I 
notice this web site is even less foregiving, and doesn't include 
ELEKTRA LIVES AGAIN at all

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Re: Is DAREDEVIL: MAN WITHOUT FEAR Canon?
Posted by ShadZ on August 15, 2001 at 11:34:38:
In Reply to: Is DAREDEVIL: MAN WITHOUT FEAR Canon?
posted by ShadZ on July 26, 2001 at 16:12:47:

> Is DAREDEVIL: MAN WITHOUT FEAR cannon?  [checks Key, sees it 
listed]  Guess Russ thinks so . . .

> The reason I ask is recently on rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe, 
people were asking about inconsistancies between DAREDEVIL: MAN 
WITHOUT FEAR and DAREDEVIL: YELLOW, and several people who should 
know (Kurt Busik and Tom Brevoot) said that DAREDEVIL: MAN WITHOUT 
FEAR is not cannon, and never was.  Frank Miller originally wrote 
it as a movie treatment (which was not cannon, of course), and when 
he changed it into a comic book mini-series, he did not do any 
continunity checking to make it jibe with the MU . . .

If anybody's interested, the discussion can be found at 
//groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&safe=off&th=25916eefe6a307b,0&start=0

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Re: Typhoid Mary vs. Sir
Posted by comico on July 30, 2001 at 05:58:32:
In Reply to: Typhoid Mary vs. Sir
posted by Andy Holcombe on July 25, 2001 at 16:19:16:

> There's a scene from Daredevil: The Man Without Fear in which 
Daredevil invades a bordello and is assualted by the prostitutes.  
Because he's reeling from a sensory overload, he accidentally throws 
one of them out the window.  During his run on Daredevil, J.M. 
DeMatties (~344-350) expanded on this scene and used it for the 
origin of Sir.  Later on, Joe Kelly in the Daredevil/Deadpool Annual 
used the same scene as part of the origin of Typhoid Mary.  While 
this doesn't nessessarily mean anything, Ann Nocenti does not mention 
this scene (or I believe, any prostitution on Typhoid's part) in the 
Typhoid series.  Just wondering what y'all's thoughts on 
reconsiliationg this apparent discrepancy.  Personally, I think 
that either DD threw out two prostitutes or Typhoid somehow knew 
about it and tried to use it against DD.  Sir's origin is just too 
tied into it to work otherwise.

i'd say throw out the thing with typhoid mary,though it's possible 
she was a prostitute in her early years, but i don't think it would 
fit in with her personality,and what we already know..as for how to 
explain it...i have to admit..i'm stumped.since i don't have that 
annual

			*	*	*

FF: 1234 and other FF issues
Posted by SKleefeld on July 27, 2001 at 11:44:15:

So, they're trying to make FF: 1234 into this nebulous, could-be-
anytime, ultimate FF story. Which of course says to me, "I challenge 
you to definitively place this somewhere in the FF's continuity." 
Silly creators.  :)

First: Original Baxter Building. So it's prior to FF #278.
Second: Black uniforms with white trim. So it's after FF #256.
Third: Doc Doom. It must occur prior to his death in FF #260. I 
suppose it could've been a Doombot in 1234 but wouldn't someone've 
said something about his supposed death?

So we've got a window of about 4 issues. But, oh, wait. Reed 
was captured in FF #257 and didn't show up again until FF #261 -- 
after Doom's death. So FF: 1234 has to occur sometime after FF #256 
but before the end of FF #257. (This is ambiguous?) 

Given the surrounding story of Franklin being hospitalized, I'd 
place 1234 in the two days between pages 18 and 19 of FF #257.

That out of the way, I found a problem with the FF's continuity 
and strangely, it's caused by the one issue in which none of them 
appear! Fantastic Four #258 starts "several months ago" and makes 
reference to the FF just recovering from their bout with Gladiator 
in FF #250. Throughtout the story, we jaunt "some weeks later" 
and then "let 48 hours roll quickly by." At this point, two 
Doombots are in a hospital capturing Terrax. As they're sneaking 
around, we see Captain America and Iron Man leaving from a visit 
with the Thing, who was (coincidentally, of course) placed in the 
same hospital over in Marvel Two-in-One #96. (The footnote verifies 
this.) This means, of course, that MTIO #96 must occur some time 
after FF #250, contrary to the current MCP. 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but with both stories having 
a number of guest stars, this could have a decent impact on your 
work, Russ. 

Sean

			*	*	*

Re: FF: 1234 and other FF issues
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 31, 2001 at 21:32:45:
In Reply to: FF: 1234 and other FF issues
posted by SKleefeld on July 27, 2001 at 11:44:15:

Hi, Sean.

It's always good to read the observations of a dedicated Marvel 
choronologist.  I do have some questions and comments about your 
posting...

FF 258
Russ, like I, has been relying to a certain degree on the Official 
Marvel Indexes for chronological placement.  According to the 
Avengers Index (issues 4 and 5), MTIO 96 occurs between A 226 and 
227 and FF 250 occurs later, after A 232.

The reference to the FF recovering from a battle with the Skrulls 
and Gladiator at the beginning of FF 258 may just be wrong; it 
wouldn't be the first time a narrative was off-target.  The fact 
is that no mention is made of that battle having occurred within 
the story itself (unlike MTIO 96, which is referenced by Cap and 
Shellhead), and I'm tempted to discount the narrative reference.

FF1234 1
I think I'm reserving judgment about this story until it's done.  
Your placement is logical, given the shots of the Baxter Building 
(although it's never referred to as that in narrative or story, 
it sure doesn't look like Four Freedom's Plaza) and the appearance 
of Reed in one panel in the white-on-blue costume. 

If you pay attention to absolute calendar placement, I have FF 257 
as occurring in November, yet its a hot (101-degree) humid day in 
FF1234 1. Is it possible for FF1234 to be a recent story with a 
setting in the new Baxter Building and Reed throwing on an old 
costume for lab work?  (And Alicia isn't referred to as Ben's 
girlfriend in FF1234 so a recent chronological placement wouldn't 
be nixed by that.)

Two questions: by the time FF1234 1 opens, Reed has been in his 
lab for over a day; is there really enough time for FF1234 to occur 
during the two-day continuity break in FF 257 (don't forget FF@ 17 
and Thing 3-6 which presumably occur during that continuity break 
too)?

And where does that Dr. Doom robot in FF1234 1 come from?
Paul

			*	*	*

Re: FF: 1234 and other FF issues
Posted by SKleefeld on August 05, 2001 at 13:51:00:
In Reply to: Re: FF: 1234 and other FF issues
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 31, 2001 at 21:32:45:

> FF 258
> Russ, like I, has been relying to a certain degree on the 
Official Marvel Indexes for chronological placement.  According 
to the Avengers Index (issues 4 and 5), MTIO 96 occurs between 
A 226 and 227 and FF 250 occurs later, after A 232.

Impossible. Avengers #232 is part of a crossover with FF #254 and 
the two issues occur simultaneously, with two pages even duplicating 
the same events and dialogue. The FF by that point had been in the 
Negative Zone since FF #251. Since Ben's hospitalization in MTIO #96 
is a direct result of the events in FF #250, both issues -- as well 
as Cap and Iron Man's appearance in FF #258 in which they discuss 
Ben's hospitalization -- MUST occur before Avengers #232.

While I agree that mistakes have been made on Marvel's part in the 
past, the stories, characters actions and dialogue, and footnotes 
in this case all point to the same conclusion. MTIO #96 MUST occur 
after FF #250 and (for Cap and Iron Man's portion at least) in 
tandem with FF #258. I think there's far too much evidence in this 
case to say that the Indexes are right.

> The reference to the FF recovering from a battle with the Skrulls 
and Gladiator at the beginning of FF 258 may just be wrong; it 
wouldn't be the first time a narrative was off-target.  The fact 
is that no mention is made of that battle having occurred within 
the story itself (unlike MTIO 96, which is referenced by Cap and 
Shellhead), and I'm tempted to discount the narrative reference.

Again, Cap and Iron Man specifically say they're in the hospital 
to visit Ben. While they don't say exactly WHAT he's recovering 
from, we are pointed to MTIO #96 to see his recovery. And that 
IS where Reed specifically mentions Ben is having to recover from 
the events of FF #250.

> FF1234 1
> I think I'm reserving judgment about this story until it's 
done.  Your placement is logical, given the shots of the Baxter 
Building (although it's never referred to as that in narrative 
or story, it sure doesn't look like Four Freedom's Plaza) and 
the appearance of Reed in one panel in the white-on-blue costume. 

> If you pay attention to absolute calendar placement, I have FF 257 
as occurring in November, yet its a hot (101-degree) humid day in 
FF1234 1. Is it possible for FF1234 to be a recent story with a 
setting in the new Baxter Building and Reed throwing on an old 
costume for lab work?  (And Alicia isn't referred to as Ben's 
girlfriend in FF1234 so a recent chronological placement wouldn't 
be nixed by that.)

That's entirely possible and I haven't discounted that. But given 
the evidence we've seen thus far, it's hard not to pinpoint 1234 in 
the midst of FF #257. 

And given the bizarre things that were going on just prior to FF #257, 
the unusual heat could be explained by the dissapating energy from 
Annihilus's force field. (I'll note again, though, that I'm not 
partial to the calendar placement method of organizing these 
stories.)

Doom's appearance could well be a sophisticated Doombot. It could 
be the new Baxter Building. It could be an old costume on Reed. But 
for the time being, I'll cite Occam's Razor and go with my previous 
placement.

> Two questions: by the time FF1234 1 opens, Reed has been in his 
lab for over a day; is there really enough time for FF1234 to occur 
during the two-day continuity break in FF 257 (don't forget FF@ 17 
and Thing 3-6 which presumably occur during that continuity break 
too)?

I don't see a problem yet. Obviously, it could get very tight 
depending on how 1234 #2-4 play out, but it still seems do-able 
so far. Keep in mind that Ben is time-displaced at the end of 1234 #1, 
so it wouldn't really have an impact on how much time elapses.

> And where does that Dr. Doom robot in FF1234 1 come from?

No idea, but there certainly was plenty of time for one to show up 
in the Baxter Building and get taken care of by the security systems 
while the FF were in the Negative Zone.

			*	*	*

Re: FF: 1234 and other FF issues
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 06, 2001 at 22:14:57:
In Reply to: Re: FF: 1234 and other FF issues
posted by SKleefeld on August 05, 2001 at 13:51:00:

Actually, the placement of FF 250 after A 232 is possible, in a way.  
There is a continuity break of some time within A 232.  Cap appears 
in FF 250 after the first part of A 232.  The second part of A 232 
occurs simultaneously with FF 254-255.  My point was that the Indexes 
state that MTIO 96 occurs between A 226 and 227, which is before the 
first part of A 232.  And thus MTIO 96 occurs before FF 250.  I'm 
stating that the reference to MTIO 96 in FF 258 is indeed correct, 
as you believe.  I'm also saying that because of that, FF 258 occurs 
before FF 250.  What I'm discounting is the narrative reference in 
FF 258 to the FF having just battled the Skrulls and Gladiator (a 
reference to FF 250, which wouldn't have occurred yet.)

			*	*	*

Re: FF: 1234 and other FF issues
Posted by SKleefeld on August 07, 2001 at 08:50:48:
In Reply to: Re: FF: 1234 and other FF issues
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 06, 2001 at 22:14:57:

I'm having a little trouble following you here, so I'm responding 
on a point-by-point basis.

> Actually, the placement of FF 250 after A 232 is possible, in a 
way.  There is a continuity break of some time within A 232. 

Fair enough. I'm willing to see the possibility there.

> Cap appears in FF 250 after the first part of A 232. 

According to the Indexes. This is part of what I think is debateable, 
though. Those two appearances don't specifically make any other-story 
references, and are reliant upon other story points in other issues 
to determine chronological placement.

> The second part of A 232 occurs simultaneously with FF 254-255.  

Agreed.

> My point was that the Indexes state that MTIO 96 occurs between 
A 226 and 227, which is before the first part of A 232. 

For the record, I don't have Avengers #227, but there is a distinct 
break at the end of #226, so I don't have a problem with this.

> And thus MTIO 96 occurs before FF 250. 

But here's my problem: MTIO #96 expressly states through dialogue, 
flashbacks, and footnotes that the injuries that have hospitalized 
Ben are a direct result of his battle with Gladiator in FF #249-250 
and Champion in MTIO Annual #7. (Side note: Proof that Marvel 
doesn't always get the captions right, they cite the Champion/Thing 
battle as occuring in MTIO Annual #6.) That MUST mean MTIO #96 and 
occurs AFTER FF #250 and MTIO Annual #7. Ben simply would not have 
been hospitalized for injuries he hadn't yet received.

Now, given what I've agreed to in your post so far, all I'm saying 
here is that MTIO #96 and FF #250 occur after Avengers #226. Whether 
or not that is before the break in Avengers #232 is still up for 
debate.

> I'm stating that the reference to MTIO 96 in FF 258 is indeed 
correct, as you believe. 

OK.

> I'm also saying that because of that, FF 258 occurs before FF 
250. 

FF #258 is broken up into several bits. The first portion, according 
to the narrative, happens right after FF #250. Since this only 
immediately affects Dr. Doom's and Kristoff's chronology, I don't 
see anything contradictory about it. Between this point and when 
we see Cap and IM in FF #258, we have a time-span of something 
like 16 days, again, according to the narrative. To my observations, 
I can find no other time-specific references anywhere else that 
determine how much time elapses between the end of FF #250 and the 
start of MTIO #96, so I have no reason to discount this. 

> What I'm discounting is the narrative reference in FF 258 to the 
FF having just battled the Skrulls and Gladiator (a reference to 
FF 250, which wouldn't have occurred yet.)

The FF, Spider-Man, and Captain America fought Gladiator and some 
Skrulls in FF #249-250. Dr. Doom begins his machinations in FF #258. 
Ben had a bout with Champion in MTIO Annual #7. He got beaten up 
pretty badly and was put into the hospital in MTIO #96. Cap and 
Iron Man visit him within MTIO #96 and leave the hospital in FF #258. 
Then the FF head off into the Negative Zone in FF #251 and team up 
with the Cap, Iron Man, and the rest of the Avengers to thwart 
Annihilus simultaneously in Avengers #232 and FF #254.

In condensed form, it looks like this...
FF #250 (FF, Cap, Spidey)
FF #258 (Doom, Kristoff)
MTIO Annual #7 (Thing, Champion)
MTIO #96 (FF, Avengers, Spidey, etc.)
FF #258 (Cap, Iron Man, Terrax)
FF #251-253 (FF, Annihilus)
FF #254 ~ Avengers #232 (FF, Avengers, Annihilus)

The crux of my argument is simply that MTIO #96 makes specific 
mention of the fact that it occurs AFTER FF #250 and MTIO Annual #7. 
It does this with flashbacks, character dialogue, editor's footnotes, 
as well as being the impetus for the story in the first place (What 
would it take to put the Thing in the hospital? Well, he just got 
the crud pounded out of him twice!) Even if the narrative and the 
footnotes are wrong, the stories themselves point to the same 
chronological conclusion.

Sean

			*	*	*

Re: FF: 1234 and other FF issues
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 09, 2001 at 21:45:05:
In Reply to: Re: FF: 1234 and other FF issues
posted by SKleefeld on August 07, 2001 at 08:50:48:

Yup, when you're right, you're right.  There is specific character 
dialog in MTIO 96 to Ben's battle with Gladiator in FF 250, followed 
closely by the battle with Champion in MTIO@7.  Did the editors of 
the Official Marvel Innext to the Avengers, Vol. 2 #4-5 make an 
error, or did they mean to say that we should ignore the reference 
to FF 250 in MTIO 96 and believe that Ben was laid low solely by 
Champion?  If we say the Indexes are in error, then you're right, 
there will be repurcussions for the chronologies of a number of 
Marvel characters.

If I find the time, I can attempt to straighten this out, but it 
may not be soon...

Paul 

			*	*	*

Parallel Lives
Posted by Jopili on July 28, 2001 at 10:55:43:

There's a little-little error in Spider-Man's chronology: in the 
third line the book "Parallel Lives" is coded ASM:PL, instead of 
SM:PL.

jp

			*	*	*

Speedball appearance?
Posted by mikeo101 on July 28, 2001 at 15:08:10:

In Marvel Age Annual #4 there is a 5 page Speedball story that is 
not re-printed or told elsewhere. This story's publication date 
precedes Amazing Spider-Man Annual #22 and Speedball #1. The story 
itself takes place somewhere during the Speedball series, I'm sure. 

Two questions: is this a canonical story? If so, isn't this then, 
the true first appearance of Speedball? 

			*	*	*

BIG Immortus continuity problem
Posted by Chris Burnham on July 31, 2001 at 12:09:11:

Check it out.  In Avengers Forever #3, Immortus gets the Forever 
Crystal.  In #5, he uses it to destroy the timeline with the 50s 
Avengers.  Remember in Avengers West Coast 48-62 when he's cutting 
off timelines right and left?  In the appendix to #5 (printed in 
#8!), it says that Immortus needed the crystal to do these things!

Immortus' appearances in AWC 48-62 take place AFTER Avengers 
Forever #3!!!  In addition to this, Immortus' behind the scenes 
stunt with splitting the Human Torch and the Vision must ALSO 
take place after Avengers Forver #3!

Any thoughts on how to monkey around with his continuity in order 
to make sense of the whole thing?  I vote on making almost all of 
Immortus' appearances take place between Avengers Forever #3 and 
#5.  It's a little forced, but its all I can come up with.  Is 
anyone an expert on Immortus' appearances in What If? 35-39 to 
tell what the deal was with those issues?

How about Immortus' "death" in Avengers: Terminatrix Objective #3!?  
ARGH!!!

			*	*	*

Warlock III and Warlock IV (Douglock)
Posted by ShadZ on July 31, 2001 at 16:16:10:

Just wondering why you treat Warlock III and Douglock/Warlock IV 
as seperate characters on this site.  Warlock IV is simply Warlock 
III, rebuilt/resurrected by the Phalanx (sp).  True, when Warlock 
IV was calling himself Douglock and appearing in EXCALIBUR, he (and 
everyone else) thought he was a new being created by combining 
Warlock III and Douglas Ramsey.  But he found out different in 
X-Men '99  -- he is just Warlock III.  He has Doug's memories because 
he always has had them in backup ever since the first time he mergeed 
with Doug -- the Phalanx just brought Doug's memories forward and 
combined them with his own memories when they rebuilt him, to confuse 
him and make him easier to controll.

So I suggest that you combine the entries for Warlock III and 
Warlock IV into one Warlock III entry, with 'see Douglock' and 
'from Douglock' links where they join . . .

ShadZ

			*	*	*

was acts of vengeance ever chronologically mapped out?
Posted by comico on July 31, 2001 at 20:22:08:

and if not,mind if i give it a shot?

jesse

			*	*	*

Tad Carter tidbit
Posted by Jeph! on July 31, 2001 at 20:29:10:

Continuing my sporadic attempts to add to the MCP...

Russ, you may not be aware of it, but two supporting character from 
"X-Men: the Hidden Years", Tad Carter and Tobias Messenger, have had 
one prior appearance in Marvel history.

Tad Carter appeared in AMAZING ADULT FANTASY #14, reprinted in X-MEN 
RARITIES -- the very story that introduced the concept of the 
"mutant" into the Marvel Universe!

Basically, the story has Tad develop strange psychic powers and 
become hated by his community.  In the final page, he is contacted 
by a mysterious voice from the sky who tells him that he is a mutant, 
that the world is not ready for him, and that he shall come live in 
a secret refuge for those like him.

This story has not before been explicitly canon, but John Byrne 
obviously was using it as the source material for his XMTHY 
characters -- when we next meet Tad, he and other mutants are 
living in a secret refuge called the Promise, gethered and led by 
a powerful psychic named Tobias Messenger -- who is obviously 
intended to have been the "voice" in AAF #14.

It seems relatively obvious that the story in AAF #14 should now 
be included as MU canon, and include appearances of Tad Carter 
and Tobias Messenger (since his voice, and an image of his eyes 
appear on-panel floating in the sky, I think we can safely include 
Messenger's appearance as on-panel and not BTS.)  The story also 
features Tad's father Brad, but I don't think his inclusion in the 
MCP is really a priority given that there is already another Brad 
Carter on the books.

Hope this helps.  (Yes, I hope giving you more of a workload 
helps... silly me.)

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Tad Carter tidbit
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 01, 2001 at 20:09:13:
In Reply to: Tad Carter tidbit
posted by Jeph! on July 31, 2001 at 20:29:10:

If you'll submit an issue analysis of AAF 14, I'll add it.

			*	*	*

Re: Tad Carter tidbit
Posted by Jeph! on August 01, 2001 at 22:41:51:
In Reply to: Re: Tad Carter tidbit
posted by Russ Chappell on August 01, 2001 at 20:09:13:

Sure -- give me a couple of days.

    -Jeph!
who, by the way, is STILL working on analyses of all the Marvel 
UK Captain Britain issues, as well as Gambit v3 #8-up ... woe is me

			*	*	*

Re: Tad Carter tidbit
Posted by Tad Carter on October 04, 2001 at 17:29:51:
In Reply to: Re: Tad Carter tidbit
posted by Jeph! on August 01, 2001 at 22:41:51:

STrangely enough my name is Tad Carter.  I would like to know how 
I can find this comic series.

Thanks,

TAD

			*	*	*

Re: Tad Carter tidbit
Posted by Jeph! on October 06, 2001 at 19:18:07:
In Reply to: Re: Tad Carter tidbit
posted by Tad Carter on October 04, 2001 at 17:29:51:

Now THAT'S funny...

Well, let me see.  Amazing Adult Fantasy #14 is around thirty-nine 
years old by this point, so you may have very poor luck finding 
that.  (You aren't 39 yourself by any chance, are you?)

As for the others:

"X-Men Rarities" was a one-shot comic book, published around 1995.  
It contains the story originally found in "Fantasy".  Tad's other, 
more contemporary appearances can be found in issues #15, 17, 18, 19, 
and 22 of the "X-Men: the Hidden Years" series, published this past 
year.

In both cases, I recommend going into a nice, big comic store and 
asking the owner with help finding the specific books.

Good luck!

	-Jeph!
wishes HE were named after a comic character instead of just a 
comic WRITER ... foo.  :(

			*	*	*

Viper II/Madame Hydra real name tidbit
Posted by Jeph! on July 31, 2001 at 20:38:26:

Oh, I'm just full of interesting information...

According to Spider-Woman v1 #44, Viper II (Madame Hydra)'s real 
name was revealed as MIRIAM DREW -- Spider-Woman I's mother!

The issue was written by Chris Claremont, the creator of Viper II, 
so unless it was retconned somewhere else that I don't know about, 
it's still accurate.

Important to know, ain't it?  Just thought you'd like to know... ;)

      -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Viper II/Madame Hydra real name tidbit
Posted by comico on July 31, 2001 at 22:53:00:
In Reply to: Viper II/Madame Hydra real name tidbit
posted by Jeph! on July 31, 2001 at 20:38:26:

> Oh, I'm just full of interesting information...

> According to Spider-Woman v1 #44, Viper II (Madame Hydra)'s real 
name was revealed as MIRIAM DREW -- Spider-Woman I's mother!

> The issue was written by Chris Claremont, the creator of Viper II, 
so unless it was retconned somewhere else that I don't know about, 
it's still accurate.

> Important to know, ain't it?  Just thought you'd like to 
know... ;)

>       -Jeph!

jeph,nice work,but i'm afraid i'm gonna have to disagree with ya 
here, viper II is NOT spider-woman's mother and here's proof..taken 
from the offical handbook of the marvel universe deluxe edition #14 
(so people can check) i quote

"while under a magic spell cast by one of the original spider-woman's 
enemies,the viper temporarily falsely believed herself to by merriem 
drew,the original spider-woman's mother"

i think that this disputes claremont's idea, and since it was never 
touched upon again, i see this as a second reason to dismiss this

what do the rest of you think?

jesse

			*	*	*

Re: Viper II/Madame Hydra real name tidbit
Posted by Michel Racaud on August 01, 2001 at 05:54:02:
In Reply to: Re: Viper II/Madame Hydra real name tidbit
posted by comico on July 31, 2001 at 22:53:00:

I'm not sure because I don't have the comic book handy but I think 
Viper as Spiderwoman's mother was denied in her next appearance 
after Spider-Woman #44, Captain America #281, as indicated in the 
MCP.

Michel

