Daredevil vs. Man Without Fear vs. Yellow
Posted by Andy Holcombe on August 01, 2001 at 16:24:33:

I want to start off by saying that I haven't read any of the old 
pre-Frank Miller Daredevil and I read Man Without Fear several 
years ago and its not readily available for a reread.  In an 
earlier thread several people mentioned that Man Without Fear 
contradicts some of the original Daredevil issues and is, in 
turn, being contracdicted by Yellow.  Could somebody please 
explain what is so contradictory among the three storys?  Thanks.

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil vs. Man Without Fear vs. Yellow
Posted by ShadZ on August 17, 2001 at 11:52:46:
In Reply to: Daredevil vs. Man Without Fear vs. Yellow
posted by Andy Holcombe on August 01, 2001 at 16:24:33:

Here is some stuff Marvel editor Tom Brevoot said in 
rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe:

	>Well I, for one, was pretty surprised to find 
	>[in DAREDEVIL: YELLOW] that Matt's Dad wasn't 
	>murdered until Matt was in law school, that 
	>Foggy had met Jack Murdock and was at that final 
	>fight with Matt, that Foggy and Matt were 
	>present at the death scene, etc.....

	Other than Foggy and Matt being at the death scene--
	which is pretty easy to fit in--all of the rest of 
	this stuff was established back in DAREDEVIL #1.

	> Is this series to be understood as something 
	>outside of continuity? Miller's own "origin"
	>miniseries wasn't *that* long ago- 

	Miller's MAN WITHOUT FEAR is supposed to be out 
	of continuity--it began life as a treatment Frank 
	wrote for a DAREDEVIL movie, and so doesn't even 
	try to reconcile with the rest of the canon. Of 
	course, the whole situation's become muddier, 
	since writers have referenced the events of MWF 
	in the current books over time.

	Tom Brevoort
	Visit the thoroughly-useless KUSO archive!
	Now with 100 entries: THE BREVOORT HISTORY OF COMICS!
	http://www.kitchentableproductions.net

ShadZ

			*	*	*

ACTS OF VENGEANCE
Posted by steve on August 04, 2001 at 01:17:01:

I say go for it, I was going to try something similar myself a few 
years ago but could'nt get past the problem with DOCTOR DOOM.

After the events in FF #350 the good ol' doc says that he's returned 
after being away for a while - its hinted that he was away since FF 
Vol.1 #40 with the occasional return!

I say that through the entire Acts of.. saga, the Doom we saw was a 
doombot, being controlled from b/s by the "prime" doombot - however 
no one else has ever commented on this subject, so its a mystery.

I have a few idead about when the REAL doom returned to Earth, but 
I'm waiting for an editor or a writer to deal with this problem.

			*	*	*

the only problem with dr.doom's appearances during acts of vengeance is
....(and i'd apppreciate any help here)
Posted by comico on August 05, 2001 at 04:12:48:
In Reply to: ACTS OF VENGEANCE
posted by steve on August 04, 2001 at 01:17:01:

that's the main problem...it's almost impossible to tell who's 
and doombot,and who's the real doom...if we're to take for granted 
that doombots have been used in most of doom's battles,the task is 
to figure out when doom last appeared before AOV..i don't know the 
chronology of doom that well,but i'd almost say it is guarenteed,
that doom DID particiapte in the secret wars,and he was involved 
after it in a way too(see FF #288)

after that,my memory is vague..anyone got anything they can add?

jesse

			*	*	*

Doom vs. Doombots
Posted by Jhaeman on August 05, 2001 at 10:21:59:
In Reply to: the only problem with dr.doom's appearances during acts 
of vengeance is....(and i'd apppreciate any help here)
posted by comico on August 05, 2001 at 04:12:48:

Unless textual evidence is available there isn't (and at this point, 
likely never will be) a way to tell if it was Doom or a Doombot that 
took part in the various acts of vengeance.  I think in such cases, 
we should enact a presumption that it is the real thing and 
chronologize accordingly and I suppose we have to do the same with 
Nick Fury and all the damn SHIELD LMDs!).  We could place an 
explanatory note that placement in certain stories is provisional.

			*	*	*

Re: the only problem with dr.doom's appearances during acts of 
vengeance is....(and i'd apppreciate any help here)
Posted by steve on August 05, 2001 at 18:43:08:
In Reply to: the only problem with dr.doom's appearances during 
acts of vengeance is....(and i'd apppreciate any help here)
posted by comico on August 05, 2001 at 04:12:48:

I think that it will take a writer of Englehartian standards to go 
through and document what Doom was doing while he was away, and when 
he returned to Earth.

Its possible, Kurt did a great job with KANG, finally giving the 
fans what they wanted, so why not dOOM?

			*	*	*

Re: the only problem with dr.doom's appearances during acts of 
vengeance is....(and i'd apppreciate any help here)
Posted by toastyj on September 07, 2001 at 01:13:30:
In Reply to: the only problem with dr.doom's appearances during 
acts of vengeance is....(and i'd apppreciate any help here)
posted by comico on August 05, 2001 at 04:12:48:

I know for sure that the Doom that appeared in IM 250 was the 
authentic one, this is due to the fact that he uses magic and deals 
with Merlin where the story dates back to IM 150, and 250 WAS and 
AOV title!!!!!!

			*	*	*

AMAZING ADULT FANTASY #14 - archived!
Posted by Jeph! on August 05, 2001 at 19:16:18:

AMAZING ADULT FANTASY #14 - 1962
"The Man in the Sky!" - 5 pg
by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko
Characters appearing:
Brad Carter (II)
Tad Carter
Mr. Filbert, a teacher
Tobias Messenger

Synopsis: 

Young Tad Carter's father, Brad, was an atomic scientist.  Perhaps 
the minute doses of radiation he absorbed over the years were what 
affected young Tad ... what caused him to be born ... a MUTANT!

12-year-old Tad Carter reaches for a baseball that has rolled behind 
a fance.  To his surprise, the ball begins rolling back towards him 
at his mental command!  A few years later, Tad realizes that he can 
read his math teacher's mind, and see all the test answers!  As the 
years go by, it happens more and more often, and Tad decides that he 
must use these strange abilities to help mankind.

But the first three people he shows his abilities to turn on him, 
attacking him out of fear.  Suddenly, they are flung away from him, 
and Tad finds himself being lifted high into the air, lifted far 
above the city.  A voice comes into his mind -- telling him that he 
is not alone, that there are many of those that mankind calls 
"mutants"!  The voice explains that they are the next great evolution 
of man ... but that the human race is too primitive to accept them 
yet.  The voice tells Tad that he is gathering many mutants to him, 
to a secret place, where they will wait -- wait until the human race 
comes of age!

Tad carter is lifted higher and higher, father and farther away, 
and vanishes into the sunset.

Notes: although he is not named, the voice -- and the face which 
appears in Tad's mind's-eye for one panel -- is clearly the same 
character that John Byrne later named Tobias Messenger in XMTHY.

Also, Byrne places this story firmly in the "real" sixties -- By 
the "ten years ago" Marvel-time of XMTHY, Tad has been in suspended 
animation for thirty years.  Therefore, the Brad Carter character, 
seen in the first panel, is most likely *not* the same as the extant 
Brad Carter character on the MCP.  One wonders if this Brad even 
deserves a mention.

Finally, this story -- the infamous tale that introduced the concept 
of the "mutant" into the MU -- was archived from its reprint in the 
"X-Men Rarities" one-shot.  The reprinted story has been extensively 
re-colored, but nothing else about it appears to have been altered 
from the original.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

an attempt to chronlogically analyse every dr.doom appearance
Posted by comico on August 05, 2001 at 20:14:42:

basically what i(and i'd appreciate a little help here) would like 
to do is go through every appearance that doom made,and judge whether 
it's the real doom or a doombot...we have a list of his appearances 
at this site,and i have some of those issues,but some i don't own
(like the astonishing tales stuff) so that's why i need a few 
helpers..if anyone wants to help me out on this..we can deal with 
specifics via e-mail..my address will be included with this post

btw:i suspect that the doom in AOV was a doombot the whole time,
and that doom never attended the meetings in person,i say this 
because doom wouldn't appear in person,it's not his style...he'd 
be more behind the scenes..but if anyone disagrees.tell me

jesse

			*	*	*

on second thought
Posted by comico on August 06, 2001 at 18:00:51:
In Reply to: an attempt to chronlogically analyse every dr.doom 
appearance
posted by comico on August 05, 2001 at 20:14:42:

disregard this...someone else may do it if they wish,but i don't 
want to,apologies

jess
*still a doom fan*

			*	*	*

Non-canon books in the Gap
Posted by Sean Curtin on August 07, 2001 at 15:54:45:

Looking through the list of books in the Gap, I noticed that several 
of them aren't in the MU canon proper:

AVATAARS: COVENANT OF THE SHIELD #1-4 (alternate universe story)

THE BOOKS OF ASKANI (unless there's a framing sequence in here, I 
think that this one is a pin-up book with short text blurbs for each 
piece, but I don't personally have it and could be wrong)

ALL-NEW EXILES and the PHOENIX RESURRECTION books (the Malibu titles 
are being disregarded as canon by Marvel)

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: Non-canon books in the Gap
Posted by Andy Holcombe on August 07, 2001 at 21:12:49:
In Reply to: Non-canon books in the Gap
posted by Sean Curtin on August 07, 2001 at 15:54:45:

> AVATAARS: COVENANT OF THE SHIELD #1-4 (alternate universe story)

I think this is "merely" an alternate world inspired by the Avengers 
that was created by the Shaper-of-Worlds.  So it may be nessessary 
to inventory the series for his appearances.

			*	*	*

Re: Non-canon books in the Gap
Posted by Randy Tischler on August 08, 2001 at 10:20:21:
In Reply to: Non-canon books in the Gap
posted by Sean Curtin on August 07, 2001 at 15:54:45:

> ALL-NEW EXILES and the PHOENIX RESURRECTION books (the Malibu 
titles are being disregarded as canon by Marvel)

I have never seen Marvel come out and officially say that the 
Ultraverse stuff isn't continuity.  And many canonical books included 
writing such that the Ultraverse appearances of MU characters 
worked...

Randy

			*	*	*

Re: Non-canon books in the Gap
Posted by ShadZ on August 08, 2001 at 10:55:25:
In Reply to: Re: Non-canon books in the Gap
posted by Randy Tischler on August 08, 2001 at 10:20:21:

> > ALL-NEW EXILES and the PHOENIX RESURRECTION books (the Malibu 
titles are being disregarded as canon by Marvel)

> I have never seen Marvel come out and officially say that the 
Ultraverse stuff isn't continuity.  And many canonical books included 
writing such that the Ultraverse appearances of MU characters worked...

Several Marvel editors have said that current company policy is to 
ignore the Ultraverse and any storylines coming from it.  This doesn't 
mean the Ultraverse crossovers aren't canon, just that they are a part 
of canon that current stories aren't going to be exploring . . .

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Cap's former partners Nomad and Diamondback
Posted by Ron F. on August 07, 2001 at 21:42:59:

I ran across a web-site devoted to Captain America's former partner 
Nomad (AKA Bucky III and the recent Scourge) and they list a few 
issues that you do not list.  Otherwise the lists are the same.  Here 
are the additions:

Since you list the five issues of YOUNG MEN from the 1950s, which 
featured the 50s Bucky, I would assume you should list his other 
appearances during that decade:

MEN'S ADVENTURES 27
CAPTAIN ..AMERICA COMICS 76
MEN'S ADVENTURES 28
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 77
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 78

He also appeared in two flashback issues which would appear 
immediately following the above:

CA@13-FB
CA@ 6-FB

The website also lists the following between issues CA 309 and 
325-FB:

USAGENT 2

It also lists the following:

CAC 333

The bulk of the new material should be inserted between NOM2 8 
and TB 49-FB:

NOM2 9
NOMS10
SECRETDEFENDER 1
SECRETDEFENDER 2
SECRETDEFENDER 3
NOM2 11
NOM2 12
NOM2 13
NOM2 14
NOM2 15
NOM2 16
NOM2 17
INFINITYCRUSADE 2
INFINITYCRUSADE 3
INFINITYCRUSADE 4
INFINITYCRUSADE 5
CA 420
NOMS 18
CA 421
NOM2 19
NOM2 20
NOM2 21
NOM2 22
NOM2 23
NOM2 24
NOM2 25

After which, the chronology picks up.

Also, as an aside, Cap's former partner and lady-friend Diamondback, 
has recently made a brief return in the miniseries, Citizen V and the 
V Battalian 1  and 2.  You can add this to her list at the end. 

Thanks, 

Ron

			*	*	*

Re: Cap's former partners Nomad and Diamondback
Posted by Dazzyl on December 29, 2001 at 19:16:26:
In Reply to: Cap's former partners Nomad and Diamondback
posted by Ron F. on August 07, 2001 at 21:42:59:

Sounds like you were at my site. Thanks for visiting. Credit where 
credit is due, I learned a great many things from Russ' MCP. Don't 
knock it too hard, but Russ please update Nomad's appearances!

Ta,

Daz.

			*	*	*

Wizard #0 issues
Posted by Sean Curtin on August 08, 2001 at 23:16:24:

What's the official MCP stand on the inclusion of #0 issues that 
come bagged with WIZARD?  I ask because I'm working on a revised 
chronology for the DEADPOOL series and I'd like to know if the #0 
issue of that series should be included.

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Decision of the Board
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 17, 2001 at 20:32:05:
In Reply to: Wizard #0 issues
posted by Sean Curtin on August 08, 2001 at 23:16:24:

The Board of Directors reached a unanimous decision this week to 
include Wizard special editions, as long as they're canon. Canonocity 
is determined on a case-by-case basis.

Wizard books should fall in at least one of four possible categories:

a) Events in the book contradict known events in the Marvel Universe. 
Result: Most likely, not canon.

b) Subsequent Marvel Universe stories refer to events in the Wizard 
book. Result: Most likely, canon.

c) Neither a nor b. The Board, although not quite as unanimous on 
this one, tends to come down on the side of canon.

d) Both a and b. My feeling is that a overrides b, that the events 
referred to (per b) are similar--but not the same as--events 
portrayed in Wizard, and therefore, Wizard is not canon. Example: 
In Magic Man #35, Magic Man refers to events in Wizard's Magik 
Man #1/2. However, Magik Man 1/2 also has a scene where Gwen Stacy 
is dating an adult Franklin Richards. Interpretaion: The events 
that Magic Man mentions in Magic Man #35 occurred (sp?) in an 
untold story, not in Magic Man #1/2. Result: Footnotes to the 
contary, Magic Man #1/2 is not canon.

Since I don't have any of the Wizard books, here's the process I 
suggest.

First, we need to compile a list of all the Wizard books.

Once that's done, we apply rules a-d above to each book.

So would someone be so kind as to start a thread on Wizard special 
editions?

			*	*	*

Missing Titles in List of Missing Titles
Posted by Sean Curtin on August 09, 2001 at 23:50:03:

Me again... I've noticed a couple of books that were produced 
during the Gap(s) that aren't listed in the list of books from 
the Gap even though some books listed are tied to them:

CLAN DESTINE (issues 9-12 aren't canon, as per X-MEN & CLAN DESTINE, 
but the first eight and the MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS preview are)

and

WOLVERINE: RAHNE OF TERRA (sequel of KNIGHT OF TERRA, both are set 
in a medieval alternate Earth IIRC)

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: Missing Titles in List of Missing Titles
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 10, 2001 at 17:40:50:
In Reply to: Missing Titles in List of Missing Titles
posted by Sean Curtin on August 09, 2001 at 23:50:03:

> WOLVERINE: RAHNE OF TERRA (sequel of KNIGHT OF TERRA, both are set 
in a medieval alternate Earth IIRC)

WOLVERINE: RAHNE OF TERRA isn't from the gap, and in fact, is already 
covered in the Project (W:RT).

			*	*	*

X-Men vs. the Avengers
Posted by Andy Holcombe on August 12, 2001 at 13:43:05:

Maybe I missed it, but I couldn't find X-Men vs. the Avengers in the 
chronologies for Thor or Captain America.  It is listed for the Black 
Knight.  I can't speak for any of the other characters though.

			*	*	*

Last Galactus Story
Posted by ndy Holcombe on August 13, 2001 at 03:37:55:

In the last issue of Epic Illustrated, Archie Goodwin mentions that 
The Last Galactus Story would conclude in a special issue to be 
published later.  Does anyone have any information on this issue?  
Thanks.

			*	*	*

Re: Last Galactus Story
Posted by Don Campbell on August 13, 2001 at 09:45:19:
In Reply to: Last Galactus Story
posted by ndy Holcombe on August 13, 2001 at 03:37:55:

The last chapter of "The Last Galactus Story" was never published.  
If you want to find out how it was going to end, you can go to the 
Comic Book Resources website.  In the features section, there is an 
interview with John Byrne from August of 2000 in which he discusses, 
among other things, the ending of "The Last Galactus Story" and why 
it will never see print.

			*	*	*

Wizard special editions
Posted by Jeph! on August 18, 2001 at 00:57:34:

For Russ, taken from earlier postings on the board:

The following are the Marvel-Universe Wizard special edition comics, 
submitted for canonicity testing.  I've left out things like Spider-
Girl and Earth-X comics, which right now wouldn't fall under the MCP's 
charter anyway.

Avengers v3 #0
Captain Marvel v5 #0
Deadpool v3 #0
Fantastic Four v3 #1/2
Gambit v3 #1/2
Generation X #1/2
Hulk v3 #1/2
Iron Man v3 #1/2
New Warriors v2 #0
Silver Surfer v3 #1/2
Slingers #0
Spider-Man #1/2
Thunderbolts #0
Wolverine v2 #1/2
X-51 #0
X-Men #1/2

...and I believe a Punisher v6 #1/2 is coming soon from Wizard.

(I feel strangely compelled to point out that I've already archived 
the Gambit #1/2, with a correction in message #650.)

	-Jeph, plugging his own work

			*	*	*

Slingers #0
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 19, 2001 at 19:00:22:
In Reply to: Wizard special editions
posted by Jeph! on August 18, 2001 at 00:57:34:

Slingers #0
1998 Wizard giveway

"The Learning Curve"
Writer: Joseph Harris
Pencils: Adam Pollina
Inks: Jimmy Palmiotti
Colors: Kevin "Stick" Tinsley
Letters: RS & Comicraft's Liz Agraphiotis
Asst. Editor: Zena Tsarfin
Editor: Ruben Diaz
Editor-In-Chief: Bob Harras

DUSK/CASSIE (apparently dies)  [PREV: SLINGERS #0-FB; NEXT: ?]
HORNET/EDDIE  [PREV: SLINGERS #0-FB; NEXT: SLINGERS #1]
PRODIGY/RITCHIE  [PREV: SLINGERS #0-FB; NEXT: SLINGERS #1]
RICOCHET/JOHNNY  [PREV: SLINGERS #0-FB; NEXT: SLINGERS #1]
SPIDER-MAN  [PREV: ?; NEXT: ?]

Flashback:
DUSK/CASSIE  [PREV: ?; NEXT: SLINGERS #0]
HORNET/EDDIE  [PREV: ?; NEXT: SLINGERS #0]
PRODIGY/RITCHIE  [PREV: ?; NEXT: SLINGERS #0]
RICOCHET/JOHNNY  [PREV: ?; NEXT: SLINGERS #0]

Plot:
To qualify for the team, Dusk makes an ill-fated attempt to jump 
from one building to another.

I am guessing that the next appearances of the Slingers are in the 
first issue, because the story ends with "To find out what happens 
next, pick up SLINGERS #1, on sale now!"  I've never read SLINGERS, 
so I can't contribute any further.

- StAkAr

			*	*	*

Captain Marvel v5 #0
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2001 at 08:13:21:
In Reply to: Wizard special editions
posted by Jeph! on August 18, 2001 at 00:57:34:

Captain Marvel v5 #0
1999 Wizard giveway with "WIZARD 2000"

1/"Halftime"
Writer: Peter David
Penciler: Chriscross
Inks: Anibal Rodriguez
Letters: Richard Starkings & Comicraft
Colors & separations: Tom Smith
Editor: Tom Brevoort
Asst. Editor: Gregg Schigiel
Editor-In-Chief: Bob Harras

Appearances:
CAPTAIN MARVEL III  [PREV: AVF 12; NEXT: CM5 1]
JONES, MARLO  [PREV: H2 471; NEXT: CM5 1]
JONES, RICK  [PREV: AVF 12; NEXT: CM5 1]

Plot:
Rick & Genny go through a series of visions of disasters.

The MCP listing:
AVF 12
CM5 1-FB
CM5 1

should be changed to:
AVF 12
CM5 0
CM5 1

The flashback refers to CM5 0 and is redundant.

Footnote in CM5 1 refers to events in this issue.

2/The History of Rick Jones/Captain Marvel

text summary similar to MARVEL SAGA (this feature is reprinted in 
CM5 1)

- StAkAr

			*	*	*

Re: Captain Marvel v5 #0
Posted by Sean Curtin on August 25, 2001 at 01:40:42:
In Reply to: Captain Marvel v5 #0
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2001 at 08:13:21:

> Captain Marvel v5 #0
> Appearances:
> CAPTAIN MARVEL III  [PREV: AVF 12; NEXT: CM5 1]
> JONES, MARLO  [PREV: H2 471; NEXT: CM5 1]
> JONES, RICK  [PREV: AVF 12; NEXT: CM5 1]

I think this would also qualify as a BTS appearance for "Captain 
Marvel IV", from CM5 1.

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: Captain Marvel v5 #0
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 25, 2001 at 09:29:50:
In Reply to: Re: Captain Marvel v5 #0
posted by Sean Curtin on August 25, 2001 at 01:40:42:

On 25 Aug 2001, Sean Curtin spake:

> I think this would also qualify as a BTS appearance for "Captain 
Marvel IV", from CM5 1.

Sean refers (I think) to the dreadlocked-snake that appears here 
calling itself Captain Marvel.  This creature, IIRC, was from an 
alternate timeline and is not presently indexed in the MCP.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

New Warriors v2 #0
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2001 at 08:17:07:
In Reply to: Wizard special editions
posted by Jeph! on August 18, 2001 at 00:57:34:

New Warriors #0
1999 Wizard giveway

Writer: Jay Faerber
Pencils: Steve Scott
Inks: Walden Wong
Letters: Richard Starkings & Comicraft
Colors: Kevin Somers
Asst. Editor: Brian Smith
Editor: Bobbie Chase
Editor-In-Chief: Bob Harras

Appearances:
AEGIS (finds breastplate in this issue) [PREV: NW2 4-FB?; NEXT: NW2 1]
BOLT  [PREV: MAV2 12; NEXT: NW2 1]
GANCE, MR. (schoolteacher @ Oatridge School for Boys)  [PREV: none; 
NEXT: none]
NAMORITA  [PREV: M/TU2 11; NEXT: FF3 23]
NOVA  [PREV: TB 25; NEXT: NW2 1]
ORKA  [PREV: HFH 4; NEXT: DEF2 7]
RAGE/ELVIN HALIDAY  [PREV: A3 13; NEXT: NW2 1]
SPEEDBALL  [PREV: A3 13; NEXT: NW2 1]
TURBO II "A" (why is there an "A" and a "B"?)  [PREV: TB 25; NEXT: 
NW2 1]

In NW2 0, Namorita still wears her old green costume (except for 
the cover).  FF3 23 features Namorita's new costume and seems to be 
its first appearance.

In TB 25, TURBO still wears her old costume, so NW2 0 occurs after 
that.

I don't have NW2 4, so I can't place Aegis' flashback.

Footnote places it after NOVA #1
To be continued in NW2 1

			*	*	*

Avengers v3 #0
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2001 at 08:51:12:
In Reply to: Wizard special editions
posted by Jeph! on August 18, 2001 at 00:57:34:

Avengers #0
1999 Wizard giveaway
1/"Our Top Story Tonight"
Writer: Kurt Busiek
Pencils: Stuart Immonen
Inks: Wade Von Grawbadger
Letters: Richard Starkings & Comicraft
Colors & Separations: Tom Smith
Asst Editor: Gregg Schigiel
Editor: Tom Brevoort
Editor-In-Chief: Bob Harras

Appearances:
ALKHEMA-2 - BTS  [PREV: none?; NEXT: A3 19]
CAPTAIN AMERICA  [PREV: A3 18; NEXT: A3 19]
CUMMINGS, DIANE  [PREV: H2 244; NEXT: AT:WMB 2]
FIREBRAND (Iron Man fought recently)  [PREV: A3 12; NEXT: A3 27]
FIRESTAR  [PREV: A3 18; NEXT: A3 19]
GRIM REAPER-BTS  [PREV: A3 11; NEXT: A3 20]
IRON MAN  [PREV: A3 18; NEXT: A3 19]
JANSSEN, DR.  [PREV: none?; NEXT: none?]
JUSTICE II  [PREV: A3 18; NEXT: A3 19]
SANDERS, MAC  [PREV: AMAZING FANTASY; NEXT: AT:WMB 2]
SCARLET WITCH  [PREV: A3 18; NEXT: A3 19]
STANDISH, CHARLES  [PREV: none?; NEXT: none?]
THOR  [PREV: A3 18; NEXT: A3 19]
TREMONT, JONATHAN  [PREV: A3 15; NEXT: A3 26]
TRIATHLON  [PREV: A3 15; NEXT: A3 26]
ULTRON  [PREV: A3 18-BTS; NEXT: A3 19]
VISION  [PREV: A3 18; NEXT: A3 19]
WONDER MAN  [PREV: A3 18; NEXT: A3 19]

AVENGERS CASEBOOK 1999 places A3 0 between A3 18 & 19.  It is included 
as the prologue in the Ultron Unlimited TPB.

AVENGERS CASEBOOK 1999 says that Diane Cummings previously made an 
appearance in IT THE LIVING COLOSSUS (no issue # given).

AVENGERS CASEBOOK 1999 says that Mac Sanders previously made an 
appearance in an AMAZING FANTASY limited series (no issue # given).

Charles Standish is not the same person as General Standish.

There is currently no listing for Alkhema-2 in the MCP.  Or Alkhema (1) 
for that matter.

2/The History of Ultron
text summary similar to MARVEL SAGA

			*	*	*

Re: Avengers v3 #0
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2001 at 09:42:03:
In Reply to: Avengers v3 #0
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2001 at 08:51:12:

I neglected to mention the plot, FWIW.

Plot:
A TV show recaps recent events in the Avengers' lives while Justice 
and Firestar watch from Namorita's apartment (she doesn't appear).  
The show then switches to a live broadcast of a battle with Firebrand, 
who holds the Senior Vice-President of Osborn Chemical hostage.  After 
freeing him, the Avengers are assaulted by the press.  Meanwhile, 
Ultron looks on from hiding.  And Alkhema look upon Ultron.

In addition, there is a minor flashback, with a recorded interview 
with Iron Man.  It must be a flashback, because Iron Man is on a 
quinjet bound for Osborn Chemical at the time of the broadcast.

IRON MAN
A3 18
A3 0-FB
A3 0
A3 19

- StAkAr

			*	*	*

Re: Avengers v3 #0
Posted by Giant Ant on August 21, 2001 at 00:37:32:
In Reply to: Avengers v3 #0
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2001 at 08:51:12:

> There is currently no listing for Alkhema-2 in the MCP.  Or 
Alkhema (1) for that matter.

She is listed under War Toy.

TT

			*	*	*

Thunderbolts #0
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2001 at 09:30:29:
In Reply to: Wizard special editions
posted by Jeph! on August 18, 2001 at 00:57:34:

Thunderbolts #0
1998 Wizard giveway

"A Rare Night Off/The History of the Thunderbolts"
Writer: Kurt Busiek
Pencils: Mark Bagley
Inks: Al Milgrom
Letters: Richard Starkings & Comicraft
Colors & separations: Tom Smith
Asst. Editor: Gregg Schigiel
Editor-In-Chief: Bob Harras

Appearances:
ATLAS II  [PREV: TB 22; NEXT: A3 12]
CAPTAIN AMERICA  [PREV: ?; NEXT: A3 12]
CITIZEN V III  [PREV: TB 21; NEXT: TB 23]
CRIMSON COWL II  [PREV: TB 21; NEXT: TB 23]
EISELE, HORST  [PREV: none?; NEXT: none?]
HAWKEYE  [PREV: TB 22; NEXT: A3 12]
IRON MAN  [PREV: ?; NEXT: ?]
JOLT  [PREV: TB 22; NEXT: A3 12]
MACH-1  [PREV: TB 22; NEXT: A3 12]
MOONSTONE  [PREV: TB 22; NEXT: A3 12]
ROGERS, GAYLE  [PREV: TB 22; NEXT: TB 23]
SCARLET WITCH  [PREV: ?; NEXT: A3 12]
SONGBIRD  [PREV: TB 22; NEXT: A3 12]
THOR  [PREV: ?; NEXT: ?]
VISION  [PREV: ; NEXT: A3 12]
ZEMO, HELMUT  [PREV: CA '98; NEXT: TB 30-BTS]

Plot:
The T-Bolts' fancy dinner is crashed by Hydra agents.

Setting:
After Hercules' attack in TB 22.  Followed by A3 12, then Abe's 
surrender in TB 23.

The Avengers' appearances are difficult to place because they made 
so many guest appearances during this period.  Here's what we have 
to work with:

CAP
A3 11
IM '98-FB
IM '98
ASM2 1
T2 6
CA '98
DD2 8
W '99/2
A3 12

IRON MAN
A3 11
IM '98-FB
IM '98
ASM2 1
IM3 11
IM3 12
IM3 13

SCARLET WITCH
A3 11
IM '98-FB
ASM2 1
A3 12

THOR
A3 11
IM '98-FB
ASM2 1
T2 6
T2 7
DD2 16
A '99
A3 13

VISION
A3 11
IM '98-FB
ASM2 1
A3 12

- StAkAr

			*	*	*

Re: Wizard special editions
Posted by Lurker Kaine on November 04, 2001 at 03:57:14:
In Reply to: Wizard special editions
posted by Jeph! on August 18, 2001 at 00:57:34:

> The following are the Marvel-Universe Wizard special edition comics, 
submitted for canonicity testing.

There's also an older 'Heroes Reborn 1/2'

since folks who were in it have now appeared in mainstream books 
(namely the female bucky) figure it should be handled too.

			*	*	*

Starhawk and the GOTG
Posted by Kirk Cornelius Jr. on August 19, 2001 at 13:15:52:

Why aren't there any list of every apperance of the Guardians of the 
Galaxy:Starhawk, Aleta, Martinex, Yondu, Charlie-27, Nikki, Talon, 
and Vance Astro.

			*	*	*

Re: Starhawk and the GOTG
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 19, 2001 at 16:15:18:
In Reply to: Starhawk and the GOTG
posted by Kirk Cornelius Jr. on August 19, 2001 at 13:15:52:

Several of the Guardians you mention *are* included in the Project, 
but only a very few appearances are listed for each at the moment 
because they do not inhabit the Mainstream timeline.

It is likely that they will find a home at some point in the 
"Killraven Mythos" section, as they are natives of that timeline.

If you'd like a list of every book the Guardians (and those sharing 
their timeline) have appeared in to date, visit my Guardians site at
http://www.geocities.com/glakandar/dime.html.

I regret that at present, only issue numbers are given with little 
detail on each book.

- StAkAr Karnak
Webmaster, GUARDIANS OF THE WORLDS

			*	*	*

X-Men: The Hidden Years/Fantastic Four fixes (LONG!)
Posted by Gary M. Miller on August 19, 2001 at 19:04:03:

Russ & Co.,

In regards to your coverage in the MCP of X-Men: The Hidden Years 
(X:HY), which is now concluded, I wish to clarify and add some 
entries in the chronologies of many X-characters who appear 
hereabouts, particularly in the chronologies of Iceman, Sauron, 
Magneto, Sub-Mariner, Dorma, Professor X, and each member of the 
Fantastic Four.

In the first case, I refer to X:HY 11 and X:HY 12, wherein Iceman 
discovers "Joe Smith" is really Karl Lykos, AKA Sauron, even as 
Magneto hovers nearby.  The chronology you give for this list of 
events is straightforward, from one book to the other.  The fact 
is, following the story, the first 16 pages of #12 actually happen 
before the last three pages of #11.  You will note the dialogue and 
thought balloons of all are pretty much the same in both books.  In 
addition, Iceman's comments of "He's coming around again!" refer to 
Magneto, who is not seen in #11 but is clearly seen in the same 
scenes in #12; however, I shall place the chronology below, as it 
interweaves with the second of the two chronology fixes.

For sake of proper placement, I put in the previous and next 
appearances, as per the existing chronology entries, immediately 
before and after the edits I have made.

First, append the chronology of Iceman thusly:

ICEMAN/ROBERT "BOBBY" DRAKE

...
X:HY 10
X:HY 12
X:HY 11~X:HY 12 (pgs. 17-18)
X:HY 12
X:HY 13
...

Sauron, however, has an added flashback (from X:HY 10) in between 
his entry to the Savage Land, as depicted itself in a flashback in 
UX 115 (which places itself in and around his appearances in X:HY), 
to his time when he appears in Hidden Years #6, to wit:

SAURON/DR. KARL LYKOS

...
UX 61
UX 115-FB (up through pg 12 panel 1)
X:HY 10-FB
X:HY 6
X:HY 7
X:HY 9
>X:HY 10
X:HY 12
X:HY 11~X:HY 12
X:HY 12
UX 115-FB (the rest of the flashback sequence, pg 12 panel 2 onward)
UX 114
...

Then, look to the chronologies of Namor, Professor X, Magneto, Mister 
Fantastic, Invisible Woman, (less so Thing, Human Torch, and Lady 
Dorma), for these are included in the weave-around tale between X:HY 
12, 20-22 and FF 102-104.  I'll try my best to follow first Magneto 
(from the point at which I stopped above) through this story, then 
link the rest up.  Oftentimes, the characters appear in both stories 
concurrently, same dialogue and all, thus all the ~'s.  This is going 
to be messy...

MAGNETO

...
X:HY 10
X:HY 11
X:HY 12 (pages 1-2, 12-13, 15-16)
X:HY 11-BTS~X:HY 12 (page 17)
X:HY 12
FF 102~X:HY 12 (pages 36-38)
FF 102
FF 102~X:HY 20 (pgs 1-2)
FF 102
FF 103
X:HY 20 (pages 21-22)
FF 103~X:HY 21
X:HY 21 (pg2 panel 1-2)
FF 103~X:HY 21 (pg 3 panels 2-4)
FF 103
FF 104
FF 104~X:HY 21 (pg 22)
FF 104~X:HY 22
AA2 9-FB
...

Then, for Subby:

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MCKENZIE

...
SUB-M 30
FF 102~X:HY 12
FF 102
FF 102~X:HY 20 (pgs 1-2)
FF 102
FF 103
FF 104
FF 104~X:HY 21 (pg 22)
FF 104~X:HY 22
SUB-M 31
...

PROFESSOR X/CHARLES XAVIER (including his behind-the-scenes 
appearances in the FF books, as revealed in X:HY)

...
X:HY 19
X:HY 20
X:HY 21~FF 103-BTS
X:HY 21
X:HY 21~FF 104-BTS
X:HY 22
X:HY 22~FF 104-BTS
X:HY 22
A 88
...

MR. FANTASTIC

...
AA2 2
FF 102
X:HY 20
FF 103
FF 104
FF 104~X:HY 22 (pgs 1-2)
FF 104 (punching the Atlantean soldiers, pg 2)
FF 104~X:HY 22 (pg 3)
X:HY 22 (pg 3)
FF 104~X:HY 22
FF 104 (final panel)
A 88
...

INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUSAN STORM RICHARDS

...
AA2 2
FF 102
X:HY 20
FF 103
FF 103~X:HY 21
FF 103
FF 104
FF 104~X:HY 21
FF 104~X:HY 22
FF 104 (final panel)
FF 105
...

DORMA [ATLANTEAN] (currently has no X:HY appearances listed 
whatsoever)

...
SUB-M 29
FF 103
FF 104
FF 104~X:HY 21
FF 104~X:HY 22
SUB-M 31
...

CRYSTAL [INHUMAN]

...
AA2 2
FF 102
X:HY 20
FF 103
FF 104
FF 104~X:HY 22
FF 104 (right before Reed returns, page unknown--I have a reprint!)
FF 104~X:HY 22
FF 104 (final panel)
FF 105
...

HUMAN TORCH/JOHNNY STORM

...
AA2 2
FF 102
X:HY 20
FF 103
FF 104
FF 104~X:HY 22
FF 104 (Torch alone vs. Atlantean ship)
FF 104~X:HY 22
FF 104 (final panel)
M/TU 1
...

THING/BENJAMIN GRIMM

...
AA2 2
FF 102
X:HY 20
FF 103
FF 104
FF 104~X:HY 22
FF 104 (Thing alone in elevator shaft)
FF 104~X:HY 22
FF 104 (final panel)
SUB-M 31
...

That's about all I've got....hope you can use it!  Let me know if 
you require any additional explanations and I'll be happy to provide 
them.  These were the most glaring continuity problems in the run, 
but I'll be looking for more trouble spots.

Thanks for making such a great site!

-Gary M.

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: The Hidden Years/Fantastic Four fixes (LONG!)
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 19, 2001 at 21:23:24:
In Reply to: X-Men: The Hidden Years/Fantastic Four fixes (LONG!)
posted by Gary M. Miller on August 19, 2001 at 19:04:03:

At first glance, it appears that the bulk of the corrections you're 
suggesting for the X:HY 20-22 & FF 102-104 involve what you treat as 
concurrent appearances, but are actually retellings of scenes from 
FF 102-104. We don't use the concurrent mark (~) for retellings 
(that's why Dorma has no appearances listed for X:HY; there's 
nothing new in it). If we used the ~ every time events from a story 
are retold, the radioactive spider biting Peter Parker would take 
up an entire page by itself. 

That may not be the case in all of the points you bring up here. I'll 
look into it.

For the record, here's the chronological analysis that we used for 
X:HY 22:

Chronological analysis: Page 1 - page 3 panel 2 are duplicated by ff 
104, and ignored here. Page 3 panels 3 - 5 occur immediately after 
ff 104 page 16 panel 1. Page 7 panel 4 is duplicated by ff 104 page 
17 panel 2, and is ignored here. Page 8 panels 1 - 2 occur just after 
ff 104 page 17 panel 2. Page 8 panel 3  page 11 duplicated by ff 104 
and, except for Professor X, everyone is ignored here.

			*	*	*

My explanation for why these appearances count, plus a little fix 
re: X:HY 12.
Posted by Gary M. Miller on August 20, 2001 at 10:08:21:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: The Hidden Years/Fantastic Four fixes (LONG!)
posted by Russ Chappell on August 19, 2001 at 21:23:24:

Russ,

Well, I'm just going by your previously-established guidelines.  If 
what you suggest is true, then why bother counting DRSTR2 53 as an 
FF appearance (since, while telling part of the same story, it came 
out several years later), or any of the rest that occur in the same 
timeframe as FF 19?  Tell me why that sequence (FF 19~DRSTR2 53~WCA2 
22~ROA3 & ROA 4) is counted and this sequence cannot be.

These are not "flashbacks" referring to the stories, which I was led 
to believe was the way to differentiate things that count from things 
that don't.  I fully understand the Spider-Man example you use, sure; 
pretty much everyone knows that when you're showing the origin, 
you're showing AAF 15; not the case here.  IMHO when a story weaves 
in and around previous events while staying in the exact same 
timeframe (not a "flashback") and periodically adding new information 
(such as these X:HY issues do) it should automatically be 
incorporated into the chronology entry.  You can't have it both ways, 
e.g. add Professor X's BTS appearances in FF 103-104 and not add the 
FF's concurrent appearances in X:HY.<p>Of course, you may disagree 
with me, that's your prerogative.  I just call 'em as I see 'em.

Coincidentally, I screwed up Magneto and Subby's entries, upon 
further reflection--after their dual appearance in FF 102~X:HY 12, 
they do appear in the final two panels of X:HY 12 speaking original 
dialogue picking from that previous appearance.  Thus:

MAGNETO

...
X:HY 10
X:HY 11
X:HY 12 (pages 1-2, 12-13, 15-16)
X:HY 11-BTS~X:HY 12 (page 17)
X:HY 12
FF 102~X:HY 12 (pages 36-38)
**X:HY 12** (page 38)
FF 102
FF 102~X:HY 20 (pgs 1-2)
FF 102
FF 103
X:HY 20 (pages 21-22)
FF 103~X:HY 21
X:HY 21 (pg2 panel 1-2)
FF 103~X:HY 21 (pg 3 panels 2-4)
FF 103
FF 104
FF 104~X:HY 21 (pg 22)
FF 104~X:HY 22
AA2 9-FB
...

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MCKENZIE

...
SUB-M 30
FF 102~X:HY 12
**X:HY 12**
FF 102
FF 102~X:HY 20 (pgs 1-2)
FF 102
FF 103
FF 104
FF 104~X:HY 21 (pg 22)
FF 104~X:HY 22
SUB-M 31
...

-Gary M.

			*	*	*

Re: My explanation for why these appearances count, plus a little 
fix re: X:HY 12.
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 20, 2001 at 19:47:41:
In Reply to: My explanation for why these appearances count, plus 
a little fix re: X:HY 12.
posted by Gary M. Miller on August 20, 2001 at 10:08:21:

Ah, I think I understand now where part of the confusion is coming 
from.

> Well, I'm just going by your previously-established guidelines.  If 
what you suggest is true, then why bother counting DRSTR2 53 as an FF 
appearance (since, while telling part of the same story, it came out 
several years later), or any of the rest that occur in the same 
timeframe as FF 19?  Tell me why that sequence (FF 19~DRSTR2 53~WCA2 
22~ROA3 & ROA 4) is counted and this sequence cannot be.

Gladly. If we assume that "apples" refer to story sequences like 
IM 228 ~ CA 340 (which appears under Iron Man's listing), and 
"oranges" refer to story sequences like X:HY 20-22 and FF 102-104, 
then why is FF 19 ~ DRSTR2 53 ~ WCA2 22 ~ ROA 3 considered an apple 
and not an orange? The answer is it's neither; it's a banana. To my 
knowledge, the examples you cite here are time travel stories, and 
that's why we've elected to treat them as concurrent appearances. 
Now having said that, I should point out that I don't have Rise of 
Apocalypse 3 or 4, but it was my understanding from the analysis 
that was submitted that the books involved time travel. If it turns 
out that Rise of Apocalypse did *not* involve time travel, then the 
ROA appearances should be removed, and thanks for bringing it to our 
attention.

> These are not "flashbacks" referring to the stories, which I was 
led to believe was the way to differentiate things that count from 
things that don't.  

It's *one* of the ways, and certainly the most easily recognized 
way.

> I fully understand the Spider-Man example you use, sure; pretty 
much everyone knows that when you're showing the origin, you're 
showing AAF 15; not the case here.  IMHO when a story weaves in 
and around previous events while staying in the exact same timeframe 
(not a "flashback") and periodically adding new information (such 
as these X:HY issues do) it should automatically be incorporated 
into the chronology entry.  

Agreed. But no new information was added, as far as Dorma's 
chronology was concerned. In those instances where new information 
was imparted (such as Mr. Fantastic) we've included the appearances 
in X:HY (but not as concurrent events).

> You can't have it both ways, e.g. add Professor X's BTS appearances 
in FF 103-104 and not add the FF's concurrent appearances in X:HY.

Not sure what you mean here. We're not trying to have it both ways. 
In the two examples you cite here which you appear to be claiming 
are self-contradictory, they're entirely consistent with each other. 
The truth is we *haven't* added Professor X's BTS appearances in FF 
103-104, and we haven't added concurrent FF appearances in X:HY. No 
contradiction here. Or have I misunderstood?

			*	*	*

Re: My explanation for why these appearances count, plus a little fix 
re: X:HY 12.
Posted by Gary M. Miller on August 20, 2001 at 21:16:47:
In Reply to: Re: My explanation for why these appearances count, plus 
a little fix re: X:HY 12.
posted by Russ Chappell on August 20, 2001 at 19:47:41:

>Now having said that, I should point out that I don't have Rise of 
Apocalypse 3 or 4, but it was my understanding from the analysis that 
was submitted that the books involved time travel. If it turns out 
that Rise of Apocalypse did *not* involve time travel, then the ROA 
appearances should be removed, and thanks for bringing it to our 
attention.

I don't believe that ROA involves time travel...it is the origin of 
Apocalypse, who was born during the era of Rama-Tut, so I don't 
believe they count.

> Agreed. But no new information was added, as far as Dorma's 
chronology was concerned. In those instances where new information 
was imparted (such as Mr. Fantastic) we've included the appearances 
in X:HY (but not as concurrent events).

Even so, there are certain instances (i.e. Magneto's appearance in 
X:HY 20, the final two pages, being in between the pages of FF 103) 
where it's at least necessary to list one book, then the other and 
go back because that's where some of these appearances do take 
place--in-between panels of previously published stories.

> Not sure what you mean here. We're not trying to have it both ways. 
In the two examples you cite here which you appear to be claiming are 
self-contradictory, they're entirely consistent with each other. The 
truth is we *haven't* added Professor X's BTS appearances in FF 
103-104, and we haven't added concurrent FF appearances in X:HY. No 
contradiction here. Or have I misunderstood?

What I'm saying is, if you plan to accept what I've said on one 
hand--that is, if you add Professor X's behind-the-scenes appearances 
back in FF 103 and 104, then it's an illogical step to *not* go back 
through and place the rest of the cast who appeared in FF, up into 
X:HY concurrently.

Fact of it is, with minor exception, you seem to be treating the 
info in X:HY as something akin to a reprint book, which it is 
certainly not.  It's more than a simple flashback and more than a 
reprint, and worthy of another look.

Succinctly stated, this matter of X:HY and FF is *not* a one-panel or 
one-page or even a 2 or 3-page flashback; it's something that, quite 
simply, cannot really compare to any event I know of in all of 
chronology.  I could see dismissing the overlapping sequences in 
X:HY if they were minor, but when they make up such a large part of 
three issues of story, then I'd think it requires the extra attention.

That's just my $.02....well, I guess technically I've contributed 
about $.06 by now.  Again, thanks for the attention.

-Gary

			*	*	*

Re: My explanation for why these appearances count
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 20, 2001 at 22:26:09:
In Reply to: Re: My explanation for why these appearances count, 
plus a little fix re: X:HY 12.
posted by Gary M. Miller on August 20, 2001 at 21:16:47:

> Even so, there are certain instances (i.e. Magneto's appearance 
in X:HY 20, the final two pages, being in between the pages of FF 
103) where it's at least necessary to list one book, then the other 
and go back because that's where some of these appearances do take 
place--in-between panels of previously published stories.

I agree. If it's as you say, these appearances should be added.

> What I'm saying is, if you plan to accept what I've said on one 
hand--that is, if you add Professor X's behind-the-scenes appearances 
back in FF 103 and 104, then it's an illogical step to *not* go back 
through and place the rest of the cast who appeared in FF, up into 
X:HY concurrently.

Again, I agree with the statement, as you've presented it. *IF* we add 
Professor X's bts appearances, then you can make the case that FF's 
concurrent appearances should be added to X:HY. But since we're not 
adding Professor X's bts appearances, the question is kind of moot.

> Fact of it is, with minor exception, you seem to be treating the 
info in X:HY as something akin to a reprint book, which it is 
certainly not.  It's more than a simple flashback and more than a 
reprint, and worthy of another look.

> Succinctly stated, this matter of X:HY and FF is *not* a one-panel 
or one-page or even a 2 or 3-page flashback; it's something that, 
quite simply, cannot really compare to any event I know of in all 
of chronology.  I could see dismissing the overlapping sequences in 
X:HY if they were minor, but when they make up such a large part of 
three issues of story, then I'd think it requires the extra 
attention.

I'm not treating X:HY as a reprint at all; far from it. The *extent* 
of the retelling (one panel, 3 pages, or "large part of three issues 
of story") is irrelevant. If Marvel publishes a twelve-issue limited 
series, and every panel of every page shows the same events--right 
down to the dialog of every word balloon--as in some previous story, 
we won't be including it in the Project, because it has no impact on 
anyone's chronology.

And as far as finding something like this in all of chronology, 
Daredevil: Yellow comes to mind.

Thanks again for alerting us to the problem of Rise of Apocalypse, 
and we'll study FF 103 and X:HY 20 a little more closely.

			*	*	*

Professor X's appearances not being added?  Why not? *text*
Posted by Gary M. Miller on August 21, 2001 at 12:48:48:
In Reply to: Re: My explanation for why these appearances count
posted by Russ Chappell on August 20, 2001 at 22:26:09:

> Again, I agree with the statement, as you've presented it. *IF* we 
add Professor X's bts appearances, then you can make the case that 
FF's concurrent appearances should be added to X:HY. But since we're 
not adding Professor X's bts appearances, the question is kind of 
moot.

Russ,

Your statement strikes me as odd.  After presented with evidence 
enough that indeed by virtue of X:HY Prof. X had to have made those 
appearances, have you made the judgment to not include Prof. X's 
appearances as BTS in FF 103 and 104?  Or are you merely saying that 
it's being considered and under review, just no plans to include the 
change soon?  If it's the latter, I certainly can understand the 
choice to review everything.  (And, BTW, since you've given no 
comments as to the additions/changes to the chronology for Iceman 
and Sauron, I'm assuming you have no immediate problems with those 
changes, or are likewise reviewing those ideas...correct me if I'm 
wrong.)

Something tells me that, once finished, much of DD: Yellow won't go 
included in the MCP, ala this little chain of events.

Oh, and again, out of curiosity, I ask, as nobody replied down the 
board when I posted a month or so ago, totally unrelated--why aren't 
the Micronauts on the MCP other than their appearances in Cable #38 
and up?  (Meanwhile all the Marvel characters who guest-starred in 
the title are listed.)

Puzzled,

-Gary

			*	*	*

Re: Professor X's appearances not being added?  Why not? *text*
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 21, 2001 at 14:42:35:
In Reply to: Professor X's appearances not being added?  Why not? 
posted by Gary M. Miller on August 21, 2001 at 12:48:48:

> Your statement strikes me as odd.  After presented with evidence 
enough that indeed by virtue of X:HY Prof. X had to have made those 
appearances, have you made the judgment to not include Prof. X's 
appearances as BTS in FF 103 and 104?  

Yes, because FF 103 and 104 add nothing to Professor X's chronology 
that isn't better served by X:HY. His actual appearances in X:HY 
hold priority over his BTS appearances in FF. If there is any 
scene--even just one panel--in FF which we can believe Professor X 
is behind the scenes *and* which isn't duplicated in X:HY, then 
Professor X gets a BTS listing in FF. Otherwise, he doesn't.

> (And, BTW, since you've given no comments as to the additions/changes 
to the chronology for Iceman and Sauron, I'm assuming you have no 
immediate problems with those changes, or are likewise reviewing 
those ideas...correct me if I'm wrong.)

You're correct, although it's the latter. I'll review them.

> Something tells me that, once finished, much of DD: Yellow won't 
go included in the MCP, ala this little chain of events.

From what I've seen so far of DD:Y, something tells me that, too.

> Oh, and again, out of curiosity, I ask, as nobody replied down the 
board when I posted a month or so ago, totally unrelated--why aren't 
the Micronauts on the MCP other than their appearances in Cable #38 
and up?  (Meanwhile all the Marvel characters who guest-starred in 
the title are listed.)

Micronauts is scheduled for inclusion soon, around the same time we 
add Invaders and Guardians of the Galaxy.

			*	*	*

I can't give you concrete proof, but...
Posted by Gary M. Miller on August 22, 2001 at 01:37:07:
In Reply to: Re: Professor X's appearances not being added?  Why not? 
posted by Russ Chappell on August 21, 2001 at 14:42:35:

> Yes, because FF 103 and 104 add nothing to Professor X's chronology 
that isn't better served by X:HY. His actual appearances in X:HY hold 
priority over his BTS appearances in FF. If there is any scene--even 
just one panel--in FF which we can believe Professor X is behind the 
scenes and which isn't duplicated in X:HY, then Professor X gets a 
BTS listing in FF. Otherwise, he doesn't.

Russ,

While I can't give you concrete evidence, I can give you a bit of 
circumstantial proof that Professor X must appear behind-the-scenes 
in FF #103.  All Marvel mutant enthusiasts know that Magneto has 
built his helmet in such a way that it masks his thoughts from 
telepaths, including Professor X.  Judging by the dialogue spoken 
by Professor X, it appears he's learned some more of Magneto's plans 
from the time they talked in #20 to the time they discuss matters in 
the first 2 pages of #21.  Because Xavier can't read Magneto's mind, 
it must be assumed he stuck arouond sometime during #103 to discover 
more information.  It makes most sense for him to do this during the 
first half of #103--otherwise Magneto's rants would mostly have fallen 
on deaf ears.

Case #2 presents itself when Mr. Fantastic readies his device to 
defeat Mags in #104, there's a panel (2) wherein he is shown talking 
about his device, and there is a panel prior to that (1) wherein 
Crystal, the Torch, and Thing are all talking about Reed being in 
the lab, which is really a very very short distance (as seen on panel 
3 of that same page).  As this view of panel 2 was not seen thusly in 
X:HY 22, and that the first panel was not seen at all in that issue, 
within proximity, then, Xavier must appear behind-the-scenes in FF 
104 for that two-panel stretch.  (Does Xavier literally appear on the 
last panel of X:HY page 7?  If not, then he definitely should "appear" 
in the panel 2 from the page I described above (sorry, no page number, 
my FF #104 is a reprint).  If Xavier does count as appearing there, 
even though it's a building shot, then the line of dialogue right 
before, "It's finished!  At last!" with no picture, which corresponds 
to the panel 2 of #104, counts, as would the first panel, wherein 
Thing and crew wait in the next room.

Whew.

I have a number of problems with the way you're currently treating 
this line of continuity--it seems like a special case such as this 
should be given special consideration, as, like we've discussed, it 
doesn't quite fit in the boundaries of your established parameters 
(due to the problems--I guess the only problems lie on my end, 
right?--with Professor X's chronology and the overlapping otherwise).

Coincidentally, I must ask, and I'm sorry I don't have a concrete 
example here...say a villain appears BTS in a book for a few months 
straight, never seen, but then a few issues later, or heck, a few 
years later in a different book, he or she appears again and gives a 
flashback of how he's been watching the lead hero(es)...does that 
count as a concurrent appearance for that villain, and less so, for 
the hero?  I'm sure there are examples of this left and right, just 
can't come up with one offhand.

> Micronauts is scheduled for inclusion soon, around the same time 
we add Invaders and Guardians of the Galaxy.

Well, um, what about Slingers?  Anyone brave enough to make up entries 
for Ricochet III, Hornet III, and Prodigy II (easy--See Spider-Man!) 
and III?  I have the whole series!

-Gary

			*	*	*

Re: I can't give you concrete proof, but...
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 22, 2001 at 18:05:16:
In Reply to: I can't give you concrete proof, but...
posted by Gary M. Miller on August 22, 2001 at 01:37:07:

> Coincidentally, I must ask, and I'm sorry I don't have a concrete 
example here...say a villain appears BTS in a book for a few months 
straight, never seen, but then a few issues later, or heck, a few 
years later in a different book, he or she appears again and gives 
a flashback of how he's been watching the lead hero(es)...does that 
count as a concurrent appearance for that villain, and less so, for 
the hero?  

Let me answer that with a question. Is every event and word balloon 
making up his BTS appearances in the original story duplicated by 
the flashback? (I can't imagine that the answer would be "Yes," 
especially if the BTS appearances cover several issues (unless, of 
course, the flashback is written by John Byrne).)

If the answer is yes, then the actual appearances in the flashback 
would take precedence over the bts appearances in the original 
stories. As for the hero, the flashback appearances would be ignored.

If the answer is no (meaning at least some of the bts appearances are 
not duplicated by the flashback) then both bts appearances and fb 
appearances are listed as appropriate, for instance:

ASM 299-BTS
ASM 350-FB
ASM 299-BTS

or perhaps:
ASM 350-FB
ASM 299-BTS
ASM 350-FB

or any other unlimited number of combinations, depending on how the 
appearances play out. For the hero, again, the FB in the later story 
is treated as any other FB.

> Well, um, what about Slingers?  Anyone brave enough to make up 
entries for Ricochet III, Hornet III, and Prodigy II (easy--See 
Spider-Man!) and III?  I have the whole series!

Are you volunteering? I don't have any of the Slingers and would 
welcome the help....

			*	*	*

Howard the Duck canon
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2001 at 10:01:22:

At http://www.stevegerber.com/interviews/newsarama.php3, 
Steve Gerber.com, Howard's creator briefly discusses Howard canon.

"The last Howard story I wrote was in SPIDER-MAN TEAM-UP #5, the 
issue that covertly crossed over with the SAVAGE DRAGON/DESTROYER 
DUCK book.  The stories I consider the Howard 'canon' are the two 
short stories from GIANT-SIZE MAN-THING, the first 27 issues of 
Howard's own book, the HOWARD THE DUCK ANNUAL, and the HOWARD THE 
DUCK MARVEL TREASURY EDITION.  All the rest, including his appearances 
in SHE-HULK, which I wrote myself, should be considered apocryphal.  
Marvel is planning to reprint that entire 'canon' by the way, in an 
ESSENTIALs edition, later this year.

"People have asked, too, what this means about the existence of 
'Leonard the Duck' in the Image Universe, since Leonard is purportedly 
the real Howard, kidnapped out of the Marvel Universe in the SAVAGE 
DRAGON/DESTROYER DUCK one-shot.  I suppose it means we have an 
inexplicable cosmic anomaly on our hands.  Leonard does exist.  He 
even made a cameo appearance in the Nevada story in Vertigo's WINTER'S 
EDGE #2.  Maybe he was the Howard of Marvel's 'Earth-2.'  Maybe the 
new Howard series takes place on Marvel's 'Earth-MAX,' a hitherto 
undiscovered dimension of the Marvel Universe where people talk 
dirty and have genitals.  Maybe Leonard came from the same place 
Krypto the Superdog recently returned from.  I honestly don't know.  
Someday, John Byrne will do a miniseries and explain the whole thing."

I've only ever read the SHE-HULK appearances, so I don't know what 
all of this means.  Maybe a note should be put next to the Gerber-
apocryphal stories?  Is this only Gerber's view, as Marvel has yet 
to make a statement about the canonicity of the other Howard stories?

- StAkAr Karnak, a bit confused...

			*	*	*

Re: Howard the Duck canon
Posted by ShadZ on August 20, 2001 at 12:10:38:
In Reply to: Howard the Duck canon
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2001 at 10:01:22:

>  Is this only Gerber's view, as Marvel has yet to make a statement 
about the canonicity of the other Howard stories?

This is only Gerber's view, Marvel has not made any statement yet.  
I suppose their "statement" will be apparent when they publish the 
new Howard series . . .

This may not be a big deal.  Nothing much of importance has happened 
to Howard in the non-Gerber stories . . . except Howard's return to 
Duckworld in HTD magazine (and his subsiquent decision that Earth 
isn't as bad as he thought).  Gerber has expressed a desire to forget 
about that story, and keep Howard's desire to return to Duckworld as 
one of his motivators.  But still, that doesn't mean the story has to 
be thrown out of canon, just re-explained (as a hoax or dream or 
whatever). . . Gerber isn't going to do that, but he apparently 
doesn't mind if someone else does . . .

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Re: Howard the Duck canon
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 20, 2001 at 20:04:17:
In Reply to: Howard the Duck canon
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2001 at 10:01:22:

Two points here.

First, I think an editor is a much better judge of canon than a 
writer. If Simon somehow gets the rights to Captain America, you 
can bet he's going to claim that all of the stories since the Golden 
Age didn't really happen, but that doesn't make it so. 

Disclaimer: Now that doesn't mean that editors are God. If some 
editor eats too many Twinkies one day and issues a press release 
that says the first 400 issues of Fantastic Four aren't canon, expect 
us to ignore him. The stories themselves are the "Bible" of canon, 
and editorial comments can provide us with guidance in determining 
canon. But I just don't put a lot of faith in the writer making that 
determination.

Second, if we take his words at face value, Gerber himself isn't 
saying the stories aren't canon. His use of the word "apocryphal" 
means that the stories are "of dubious authenticity." He's calling 
them into question, which is the sort of thing we talk about here 
all the time.

			*	*	*

Re: Howard the Duck canon
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 28, 2001 at 16:11:24:
In Reply to: Re: Howard the Duck canon
posted by Russ Chappell on August 20, 2001 at 20:04:17:

> > At Steve Gerber.com, Howard's creator briefly discusses Howard 
canon.

Russ spake:

> First, I think an editor is a much better judge of canon than a 
writer. If Simon somehow gets the rights to Captain America, you can 
bet he's going to claim that all of the stories since the Golden Age 
didn't really happen, but that doesn't make it so.

I think that's a rather extreme comparison, since Simon would, from 
what I understand, yank Cap right out of the MU.

> Disclaimer: Now that doesn't mean that editors are God.  If some 
editor eats too many Twinkies one day and issues a press release that 
says the first 400 issues of Fantastic Four aren't canon, expect us 
to ignore him.

Granted.

> The stories themselves are the "Bible" of canon, and editorial 
comments can provide us with guidance in determining canon.  But I 
just don't put a lot of faith in the writer making that determination.

Yeah.

> Second, if we take his words at face value, Gerber himself isn't 
saying the stories aren't canon.  His use of the word "apocryphal" 
means that the stories are "of dubious authenticity."

Right, which is why I brought this up to begin with.  Since Gerber 
is Howard's creator and is commonly identified with him, I'd 
imagine he has *some* say in his character.  My suggestion was only 
to post a "Gerber-apocryphal" tag next to each questionable appearance, 
out of regard for the creator's feelings; not to boot those appearances 
out of the Project altogether.  It's sort of like how Gene Roddenberry 
didn't consider parts of STAR TREK V & VI canon, but they are listed 
in Trek reference works for the sake of completion, along with 
disclaimers reflecting his feelings.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Different universe crossovers
Posted by Bernard Assaf on August 23, 2001 at 08:14:52:
In Reply to: Howard the Duck canon
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2001 at 10:01:22:

Howard having appeared in a couple of Man-Thing comics is interesting, 
considering he teamed up with the leafy guy in the 3-part Daydreamers 
acid trip, er, I mean mini-series.  It was interesting to read about 
the Leonard the Duck plot, however.

But my point is more this:

What about other comic publishing crossovers.

Like Weapon X / Team X?  (Image Comics?)

X-Force / Youngblood (and the Youngblood / X-Force issue, too, Image 
Comics)?

Exiles (with Juggernaut, Sienna Blaze, Black Knight -- I think -- a 
Malibu Comics (R.I.P.) series that had M.U. chars in it?)

Perhaps we've hacked this to death, but what if these stories are 
referred to by other in-canon series.  Has this ever happened?  I 
guess we'll need a case-by-case breakdown.  I leave it to the masses 
to dig these up--I actually don't even own the series in question.  
(But I don't know of any references to them, either.)

As a Longshot fan(atic), I'm curious as to the contents of the 
X-Force / Youngblood 2-part comic.  Is Longshot actually in it--anybody 
know?

			*	*	*

Are you going by the 6 momth gaps made in ASM and UX?
Posted by anonymous on August 21, 2001 at 08:56:54:

Between the first and second volume of ASM, there was supposed to be 
a six month gap,in which Peter Parker didn't wear the Spider man 
outfit.  Also, Between issues 99 and 100 of Xmen, (and I forgot the 
two numbers on Uncanny Xmen) there was supposed to be a 6 month gap 
there as well.  Are you taking these gaps into account?  In many of 
your selections, you have A3, (Avengers Volume 3) Issues 10 and 11, 
in which many marvel hero's gueststared, including Spiderman, and 
then next in chronology you list ASM2 #1.  (I'm looking at Daredevil's 
choronolgy for this, but Spiderman and other characters in those two 
issues of Avengers follow similar continuity). My point is this 
doesn't really seem like a 6 month gap...so what are we to think?

			*	*	*

Re: Are you going by the 6 momth gaps made in ASM and UX?
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 21, 2001 at 14:55:42:
In Reply to: Are you going by the 6 momth gaps made in ASM and UX?
posted by anonymous on August 21, 2001 at 08:56:54:

> Between the first and second volume of ASM, there was supposed 
to be a six month gap,in which Peter Parker didn't wear the Spider 
man outfit. 

Source, please?

We are taking the six-month gap in X-Men into account. I don't 
remember reading that about Spider-Man.

> In many of your selections, you have A3, (Avengers Volume 3) Issues 
10 and 11, in which many marvel hero's gueststared, including 
Spiderman, and then next in chronology you list ASM2 #1.  (I'm 
looking at Daredevil's choronolgy for this, but Spiderman and other 
characters in those two issues of Avengers follow similar continuity). 

Not true, at least for Spider-Man. Next in his chronology after A3 11 
is the epilog of S-M 98.

			*	*	*

Re: Are you going by the 6 momth gaps made in ASM and UX?
Posted by anonymous on August 22, 2001 at 08:15:24:
In Reply to: Re: Are you going by the 6 momth gaps made in ASM and UX?
posted by Russ Chappell on August 21, 2001 at 14:55:42:

> Source, please?

okay, ASM2 #1:  Pg 2. The Human Torch says it's been months since 
Spiderman was last seen.  PPSM2 #1: Pg 1: The narrator of the story
says several months have gone by since Peter Parker gave up being 
Spiderman.

I got that it was 6 months from the writer Howard Mackie's interviews 
with Wizard from this time period.  So while the story doesn't say 
it's been 6 months percisely, it has been a few.

> > In many of your selections, you have A3, (Avengers Volume 3) 
Issues 10 and 11, in which many marvel hero's gueststared, including 
Spiderman, and then next in chronology you list ASM2 #1.  (I'm looking 
at Daredevil's choronolgy for this, but Spiderman and other characters 
in those two issues of Avengers follow similar continuity).

> Not true, at least for Spider-Man. Next in his chronology after A3 
11 is the epilog of S-M 98.

Ah, I see. You're saying after Peter Parker defeated the Goblin and 
saved the Bugle in S-M 98, but before he burned the costume in a back 
alley, Spidey fought in A10andA11.  Except before that epilog, Peter 
says to MJ in the hospital that he's not going to wear the costume 
anymore.  And in A3 11, before the Grim Reaper launches his attack,
Spidey is seen in costume just casually watching the Avengers parade 
from a rooftop.  While you might argue that Spidey donned the costume 
one last time to fight with the Avengers in A3 11, he wouldn't be 
just sitting around in costume watching the parade.  

Also, in Spidey's continuity, you list DD2 1, as happening right 
before A10 and A11. This is a simply phone call placed to Matt 
Murdock at Matt's office. Matt's sectretary says it's a Mr. Parker 
from the Bugle.  But if this happened right after the battle in S-M 98, 
isn't the Bugle just then being rebuilt?

Also, the DD2 issues 1-8 is one story line.  Those events couldn't 
have lasted longer than a few weeks at most.  

If there was a period of a few months since Spidey wore the costume, 
then you have DD2 1 in Daredevil's chronology coming to early.

You have it before ASM 438, in which Peter is still wearing the 
costume at that time, and you also again list it before A3 10, and 
A3 11. This doesn't seem to take into account the months off as not 
being Spidey.

One last point.  You list the events of DD2 8, (the funeral of Karen) 
as happening before PPSM2 1. Spidey goes to DD in costume and comforts 
him on his loss.

But Peter hadn't resumed wearing the Spidey costume at that point 
before PPSM2 1.  In PPSM2 1, it was Mattie who wore the costume, the 
girl who later becomes Spiderwoman.

Peter didn't resume wearing the costume till ASM2 #2, where he saves 
Mattie's butt.

So it doesn't look like you took Spidey's hanging up the costume for 
months into consideration.  What say you?

			*	*	*

Re: Are you going by the 6 momth gaps made in ASM and UX?
Posted by anonymousED on August 24, 2001 at 10:16:23:
In Reply to: Re: Are you going by the 6 momth gaps made in ASM and UX?
posted by anonymous on August 22, 2001 at 08:15:24:

So, do you agree there should be some sort of time gap in Spidey's 
choronology?  

Another thing I noticed offhand is that you have in Spidey's 
Chronology DD/SM 1 and 2 happening before PPSM2 6.  Kingpin is still 
working on rebuilding his empire in this issue.  

But in Daredevil's Chronology, you have DD2 15 followed by DD/SM 1 
and 2.  But this means you have the trial of the Kingpin and his being 
shot and disfigured happening before the activity in PPSM2 6.  

I believe DD's choronology is going slower then other characters, 
thanks in large part that he only appears in his own book most of 
the time.

Any thoughts?

			*	*	*

Re: Are you going by the 6 momth gaps made in ASM and UX?
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 24, 2001 at 22:58:20:
In Reply to: Re: Are you going by the 6 momth gaps made in ASM and UX?
posted by anonymousED on August 24, 2001 at 10:16:23:

> So, do you agree there should be some sort of time gap in Spidey's 
choronology?  

Not the way you've put the question, no...at least not for the time 
being. We agree that there is a gap in the story, although not the 
extent of the gap. We currently have a gap of two months between the 
main segment of Spider-Man 98 and the epilog.

There was a stated six-month gap between issues of the X-Men books, 
but that's not the same as saying there was a six-month gap--or a gap 
of any kind--in their chronologies. They can always make appearances 
during the six months that they weren't appearing in their own books.

> Another thing I noticed offhand is that you have in Spidey's 
Chronology DD/SM 1 and 2 happening before PPSM2 6.  Kingpin is still 
working on rebuilding his empire in this issue.  

> But in Daredevil's Chronology, you have DD2 15 followed by DD/SM 1 
and 2.  But this means you have the trial of the Kingpin and his 
being shot and disfigured happening before the activity in PPSM2 6.  

> I believe DD's choronology is going slower then other characters, 
thanks in large part that he only appears in his own book most of the 
time.

Thanks in even larger part to only 3 issues a year being published. 
We've been working under the premise that the stories in Daredevil 
occurred a long time ago, relative to other titles coming out at the 
same time, and haven't seen anything yet that's disavowed us of that 
notion.

But I *am* investigating your points, and we'll see where that leads 
us.

Can you suggest alternate chronologies for Spider-Man, Daredevil and 
Kingpin that you're more comfortable with, to give us a starting point 
for comparison?

			*	*	*

Re: Are you going by the 6 momth gaps made in ASM and UX?
Posted by AnonymousEd on August 27, 2001 at 10:18:14:
In Reply to: Re: Are you going by the 6 momth gaps made in ASM and UX?
posted by Russ Chappell on August 24, 2001 at 22:58:20:

Yes, I'll give you alternate chronologies for many of the characters 
we've mentioned in these posts. I've been working during the weekend 
on that, and I'll give my results tomorrow.  Feel free to dispute 
them of course.

One question for you right now though: What reasoning did you use to 
determine there was a 2 month gap between the main story and epilog 
in S-M 98?  Is it just that you believed you could use that time 
space to wrap up any plot threads between Spidey's several guest 
appearances in other titles or something like that?  

I'll post again tomorrow.

			*	*	*

Time, timestreams, and the space between it (QUESTIONS)
Posted by Me-sama on August 21, 2001 at 21:36:14:

1) In the marvel universe, there seems to be around 100 omnipotent 
beings that can control time. Originally, I though Kronos was the 
all-powerful lord of time. Then, I picked up a big compiled Graphic 
Novel of "Avengers: Forever!" I thought to myself, 'How could I have 
missed this?'

Now, I understand the premises of the book, but the thing that 
confused me is... Who are the three "Time Keepers," the sisters 
who supposedly control time? And Immortus was the KEEPER OF TIME?  
Why would Kronos allow this? Was he offed in a story I didn't read? 
Ohhh, confused....

2) Just a short question, in the now canceled (sniff...) X-Man 
comic, the latter few issues revolved around the Cosmic Spiral of 
realities. 

Now, is this just the telepathic view of the "Nexus of all Realities" 
in which is guarded by the Man-Thing, or is this something completely 
different?

3) Can someone explain to me the whole story behind "Limbo" or the 
"Purgatory?" I've heard three stories behind it (The X-men version, 
the Avengers version, and the Captain Marvel version) and I am just 
a BIT confused on what Limbo really is... Are they different places 
with the same name? Are they different parts of the same place? WHY 
DOES MY HEAD HURT SO MUCH? ARGHHGAHF

Anyway, since you guys categorize this stuff, I hope you can answer 
my questions. My head hurts just posting the stuff.

			*	*	*

Re: Time, timestreams, and the space between it 
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 21, 2001 at 22:28:19:
In Reply to: Time, timestreams, and the space between it (QUESTIONS) 
posted by Me-sama on August 21, 2001 at 21:36:14:

Me-sama,

Watch the foul language, okay? Youngsters visit our site.

> 3) Can someone explain to me the whole story behind "Limbo" or 
the "Purgatory?" I've heard three stories behind it (The X-men 
version, the Avengers version, and the Captain Marvel version) and 
I am just a BIT confused on what the Limbo really is... Are they 
different places with the same name? Are they different parts of 
the same place? WHY DOES MY HEAD HURT SO MUCH? ARGHHGAHF

I believe the X-Men version and Avengers version are different 
places with the same name. I'm unfamiliar with the Captain Marvel 
version. Are you referring to the "place" where Captain Marvel goes 
while Rick Jones walks around? The original Captain Marvel inhabited 
the Negative Zone. The current one ends up in the Microverse.

			*	*	*

Re: Time, timestreams, and the space between it 
Posted by Me-sama on August 23, 2001 at 13:41:29:
In Reply to: Re: Time, timestreams, and the space between it 
posted by Russ Chappell on August 21, 2001 at 22:28:19:

I'm not allowed to say d--- and h---? Wow... this is worse then the 
cencorship on Dragon Ball Z...

I'm refering to the limbo that Thanos took Marlo, Thor, and Captain 
Marvel to hide from Walker.

			*	*	*

Re: Time, timestreams, and the space between it 
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 23, 2001 at 17:12:44:
In Reply to: Re: Time, timestreams, and the space between it 
posted by Me-sama on August 23, 2001 at 13:41:29:

> I'm not allowed to say d--- and h---? Wow... this is worse then 
the cencorship on Dragon Ball Z...

Sure, you're allowed to say Hell, if you're referring to the dimension 
ruled by Mephisto. The rare use of the expletive can be overlooked, 
but your short opening message was peppered with them, including a 
g-- d--- in the first line. That's a no-no. It only makes sense when 
you think about it. Keep in mind that the site is devoted to comic 
books and Marvel superheroes, so it's reasonable to believe that 
youngsters are looking over our shoulders. I think most of the 
discussions on the message board are probably over the head of the 
typical nine-year-old, but if you'll try to limit the language to 
something that you wouldn't be embarassed if your niece or nephew 
read, you'll probably hit the right tone.

> I'm refering to the limbo that Thanos took Marlo, Thor, and 
Captain Marvel to hide from Walker.

Hmmm. Did the reference to Limbo come in the narration, or was it 
Thanos who called it Limbo?

			*	*	*

Re: Time, timestreams, and the space between it 
Posted by ShadZ on August 23, 2001 at 20:14:09:
In Reply to: Re: Time, timestreams, and the space between it 
posted by Russ Chappell on August 23, 2001 at 17:12:44:

> > I'm refering to the limbo that Thanos took Marlo, Thor, and 
Captain Marvel to hide from Walker.

> Hmmm. Did the reference to Limbo come in the narration, or was it 
Thanos who called it Limbo?

I can't remember who called it Limbo, but it was the Limbo from 
popular Judeo-Christian mythology -- the place where people who 
aren't good enough for Heaven or bad enough for Hell go.

It is not the same place as the Limbo from Immortius stories (his 
Limbo is a "place outside time") or the Limbo from Magik & Belasco 
stories (which is just another dimension -- a small dimension whose 
temporal relationship to the MU can be changed if you know how, but 
still just another dimension, not some special conceptual place like 
the other two Limbos).

			*	*	*

Re: Time, timestreams, and the space between it 
Posted by Me-sama on August 24, 2001 at 00:30:48:
In Reply to: Re: Time, timestreams, and the space between it 
posted by ShadZ on August 23, 2001 at 20:14:09:

-I'm still a bit peeved about the h&d thing; they say it in marvel 
comics, so why are we scared of a little kid seeing it when he has 
already seen it multiple times?

-So in other words, all three limbos were different... Ugh... Very 
consistent of Marvel...

BTW: I asked two other things, no one will answer them?

			*	*	*

Re: Time, timestreams, and the space between it 
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 24, 2001 at 08:37:22:
In Reply to: Re: Time, timestreams, and the space between it 
posted by Me-sama on August 24, 2001 at 00:30:48:

> -I'm still a bit peeved about the h&d thing; they say it in marvel 
comics, so why are we scared of a little kid seeing it when he has 
already seen it multiple times?

Well, I regret that you're peeved, but seeing that your position is 
somewhat unreasonable, my regret only goes so far. As I've said 
before, the rare expletive can be overlooked, but I challenge you to 
find a single Marvel comic aimed at a general audience that has 5 
"hells" and "damns" in the space of what amounts to little more 
than 1 panel (including 1 instance of g.d.).

You may not buy into the reasoning, but I suspect the parents of the 
youngsters who visit our site *don't care* if you're peeved.

The words that you've used _don't add anything_ of substance to your 
post. They only exist to offend the reader.

> BTW: I asked two other things, no one will answer them?

It's possible that some of the others are struggling to understand 
how your questions are related to chronology. I personally haven't 
answered because I don't know the answer offhand.

You do pose interesting questions, although I believe they're off-
topic. I also have enough faith in Kurt Busiek to believe there are 
valid answers to them. I hope someone here can answer them, but I 
don't expect it of our experts because, well, it's not what we're 
experts on...

			*	*	*

Re: Time, timestreams, and the space between it 
Posted by Me-sama on August 24, 2001 at 21:21:58:
In Reply to: Re: Time, timestreams, and the space between it 
posted by Russ Chappell on August 24, 2001 at 08:37:22:

I'm not peeved at the fact that you don't allow curse words, I'm 
peeved that you are worried about little kids and parents. It sounds 
kinda paranoid to me, but I wont say any other words like that from 
now on. You can simply delete the [censors] on my post, it makes it 
look much worse. I never said it to offend anyone, and I am sorry if 
I did.

Well, I'm pretty sure the I know the second question's answer (that 
would be a yes) but the first one I am still a bit confused about. 
Kronos is the lord of all time, so why are the 3 Time Keepers passing 
judgement and all that? Oh well... I'll continue my search at some 
other places... Thanks for the answers you gave so far!

			*	*	*

Re: Time, timestreams, and the space between it 
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 24, 2001 at 22:37:05:
In Reply to: Re: Time, timestreams, and the space between it 
posted by Me-sama on August 24, 2001 at 21:21:58:

> I'm not peeved at the fact that you don't allow curse words, I'm 
peeved that you are worried about little kids and parents. It sounds 
kinda paranoid to me, but I wont say any other words like that from 
now on. You can simply delete the [censors] on my post, it makes it 
look much worse. I never said it to offend anyone, and I am sorry if 
I did.

I'll remove 'em, Me-sama. I agree that they make the post *seem* 
worse than it actually was. I actually gave some thought--in jest--to 
replacing them with "Golly gee willikers!" and "Goody goody gumdrops!"

			*	*	*

Re: Time, timestreams, and the space between it (QUESTIONS)
Posted by Andy Holcombe on August 24, 2001 at 13:57:39:
In Reply to: Time, timestreams, and the space between it (QUESTIONS)
posted by Me-sama on August 21, 2001 at 21:36:14:

> 1) In the marvel universe, there seems to be around 100 omnipotent 
beings that can control time. Originally, I though Kronos was the 
all-powerful lord of time. Then, I picked up a big compiled Graphic 
Novel of "Avengers: Forever!" I thought to myself, 'How could I have 
missed this?'

> Now, I understand the premises of the book, but the thing that 
confused me is... Who the are the three "Time Keepers," the sisters 
who supposedly control time? And Immortus was the KEEPER OF TIME? 
... Why would Kronos allow this? Was he offed in a story I didn't 
read? Ohhh, confused....

There's a What If...? vol 2 storyline called Timequake which may 
help explain the Time Keepers and their relationship to Immortus.  
Don't know where Kronos fits in.

> 2) Just a short question, in the now canceled (sniff...) X-Man 
comic, the latter few issues revolved around the Cosmic Spiral of 
realities. 

> Now, is this just the telepathic view of the "Nexus of all 
Realities" in which is guarded by the Man-Thing, or is this something 
completely different?

I believe that the spiral is an organizational tool used for the same 
realities that the Man-Thing guards the nexus for.

			*	*	*

Re: Time, timestreams, and the space between it (QUESTIONS)
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 25, 2001 at 09:22:51:
In Reply to: Time, timestreams, and the space between it (QUESTIONS)
posted by Me-sama on August 21, 2001 at 21:36:14:

On 21 Aug 2001, Me-sama spake:

> 1) In the marvel universe, there seems to be around 100 omnipotent 
beings that can control time.  Originally, I though Kronos was the 
all-powerful lord of time.  Then, I picked up a big compiled Graphic 
Novel of "Avengers: Forever!" I thought to myself, 'How could I have 
missed this?'  Now, I understand the premise of the book, but the 
thing that confused me is... Who are the three "Time Keepers," the 
sisters who supposedly control time?  And Immortus was the KEEPER OF 
TIME? Why would Kronos allow this? Was he offed in a story I didn't 
read? Ohhh, confused....

Just as the Walker was his local area's god of death, Kronos is 
Titan's god of time.  Kronos only has a local jurisdiction.

The Time-Keepers were the last three survivors at the end of time.  
Kronos is apparently no longer around billions of years from now.  I 
don't know why you think they were all women.  Ast Vort and Xanth 
(Zanth?) sport alien-looking gender-neutral masks.  When they had 
them off, as they did in WHAT IF v2's "Timequake" storyline, they 
looked like saucer-eyed zombies.

Immortus had a lot of influence, but the Time-Keepers had more muscle 
and pressed him into their service.

> 3) Can someone explain to me the whole story behind "Limbo" or the 
"Purgatory?" I've heard three stories behind it (The X-men version, 
the Avengers version, and the Captain Marvel version) and I am just a 
BIT confused on what Limbo really is...  Are they different places 
with the same name?  Are they different parts of the same place?

I don't recall offhand whether the dimension in CM5 was called Limbo, 
or just Purgatory.  It could be that it is the same place seen in 
AVENGERS FOREVER, but from a different point of view.  The beings in 
AF's Limbo didn't seem to be aware of their surroundings and Thanos' 
place appeared different to each observer.  Maybe if Rick and co 
stayed long enough, they would've become Space Phantoms.

> Anyway, since you guys categorize this stuff, I hope you can answer 
my questions.

Actually, we don't.  We just list appearances of characters.  That's 
it.  When an occasional story-related question comes up, although 
off-topic, we usually provide an answer if we have one.  A better 
place to ask this stuff might be rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe on 
Usenet.  Kurt Busiek (author of AVENGERS FOREVER) and Peter David 
(writer of CAPTAIN MARVEL v5) regularly post there.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Placement of Marvel Comics Presents
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 21, 2001 at 22:31:04:

Does anyone care to take a stab at the placement of the Spider-Man 
story in M/CP 99? Peter and MJ are married, but Spidey's in the black 
costume...

			*	*	*

Re: Placement of Marvel Comics Presents
Posted by Sean Curtin on August 25, 2001 at 00:56:49:
In Reply to: Placement of Marvel Comics Presents
posted by Russ Chappell on August 21, 2001 at 22:31:04:

He wore the black costume in the Morbius storyline in S-M 12 & 13 
or thereabouts, didn't he?

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Small Beast fix
Posted by Jeph! on August 22, 2001 at 14:37:11:

Ah, Russ Russ Russ.  Don't you just love having your chronological 
decisions questioned by everyone in the world with a keyboard and a 
comic book?  :)

Anyway, I have some points about your recent Beast chronology.  You 
currently have it as:

...
UX 389
X 109
UX 390
X 111-FB
W2 162
W2 163
W2 164
W2 165
X 114
X 115
XX 3-FB
XX 2-FB
XX 1-FB
XX 1
XX 2
XX 3
C2 89
C2 92

Now, my main problem is X 114-115.  In these issues (and basically, 
from now on), Beast has mutated into a new form -- a leonine look.  
Logic would dictate that all of his "new look" appearances take place 
*after* all of his "old look" appearances.  X 114 and 115 should come 
DEAD LAST in his chronology.

Also, you have C2 89 and 92 occuring after his XX appearances.  This 
is very strange.  In XX 3, Beast was severely injured, and Tessa had 
to jumpstart his mutation to cure him.  A shimmering image of the 
"new look" Beast was seen above him, and the implication was that 
this was the cause of his evolution.  Beast was then packed back on 
a plane to the X-Mansion.

Now, while this doesn't explicitly state that the next time we see 
Beast, he'd be in his new form, it wholeheartedly implies it.  One 
would *assume* that his next appearance should be in X 114, mulling 
over his new look, rather than in Cable 89 and 92, still sporting 
his old look.  Just an assumption, mind you.

But, one last piece of evidence from Cable #92: the part in which 
we see Beast (alongside Jean and Professor X), was labeled "two weeks 
ago" -- meaning, occuring before the current story thrust of the 
issue.  The point of the clip was to show that the X-Men are beginning 
to not trust Cable.  And that happened quite a while ago.

Now, Cable disappeared from the regular X-Books with X 108 (or, if 
you prefer, UX@'00).  As a matter of fact, various X-Men continued 
to disappear between X 108 and X 111, so that by the time the X-Men 
have to storm Genosha in UX 392, the only ones left are Cyclops, 
Phoenix and Wolverine.  Cable is gone.  The X-Treme X-Men are gone.  
Beast is gone (and, as the "Gambit and Bishop" series will show, 
Beast and Bishop did not leave with the X-Treme team -- they stayed 
behind for the G&B adventure, and likely left together later to join 
the rest of the team.  Beast in particular stayed around long enough 
to cure the Legacy Virus in UX 390 and go on an extended prison tour 
with Wolverine in W2 162-166.)

My point?  If Beast was not there for the seige of Genosha, he must 
have already left the team by UX 392.  And we can't speculate that 
his stint in prison accounts for his absence -- because he was there 
with Wolverine, and Wolverine is very clearly in UX 392.  The point 
is made in that issue that there are *no* other X-Men left to fight 
Magneto -- therefore Beast was gone by then, off with the X-Treme 
team, and not just out shopping.

The clip in C2 92, therefore, where Beast is just hanging around in 
the mansion in his sweats, talking about why Cable isn't to be 
trusted anymore -- a clip labeled as taking place "two weeks" prior 
to the issue itself -- likely takes place before Beast leaves, before 
UX 392.  Which means that his appearance in C2 89 must also take 
place prior to UX 392.

A possible amended chronology for the Beast looks like this:
THE BEAST / HENRY "HANK" P. McCOY
...
UX 389
X 109
UX 390
**C2 89
(G&B A)
(G&B 1)
**C2 92
X 111-FB
W2 162
W2 163
W2 164
W2 165
XX 3-FB
XX 2-FB
XX 1-FB
XX 1
XX 2
XX 3
**X 114
**X 115

(My placing of Gambit&Bishop Alpha and #1 above is purely general: 
I know that the issues have to take place after Colossus's death in 
UX 390, and before Nightcrawler leaves in XU 31/3, but their exact 
placing is up to you, when you get around to them.  I only included 
them because the Beast is in them.  Also, I think that C2 92 would 
fit nicely after G&B 1 -- which is to say, during G&B 2-6 -- because 
Cable, Bishop, and Gambit would all be away from the mansion stalking 
Stryfe during that time, and only with Cable gone would Professor X 
likely be talking openly and treasonously about him in the fashion he 
does in C2 92.  Just my opinion, though.)

I placed C2 89 after UX 390 mainly because between Moira's death in 
X 108, funeral in UX 389 and the Legacy cure in UX 390, one would 
think the Beast would be working tirelessly from Moira's research to 
cure the virus.  While his appearance at X 109's Christmas party 
belies that, I don't think it's right to also jam the guest-lectures 
that Beast was doing in C2 89 into that time-frame.  I wouldn't think 
he'd leave the X-Mansion grounds until a cure was found.  Also, 
putting C2 89 later gives Cable's chronology enough of a gap to accept 
the X:SFC miniseries, between C2 87 and 88.

So: these changes also affect the chronologies of Phoenix IV and 
Professor X, thusly:

PHOENIX IV / JEAN GREY SUMMERS
...
X:SC 4
**C2 92
UX 392
...

PROFESSOR X / CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER
...
UX 390
X 110
(G&B A)
(G&B 1)
**C2 92
GENX 75-BTS
X 111
...

Again, I'm including his G&B appearances above purely for sport.  
And later reference.  ;)

Thanks for listening, Russ.  And, before I forget, congrats on the 
boys' baseball championships!  :)
	-Jeph!
now at jephyork@yahoo.com

			*	*	*

Re: Small Beast Fix
Posted by comico on August 23, 2001 at 00:56:08:
In Reply to: Small Beast fix
posted by Jeph! on August 22, 2001 at 14:37:11:

one other thing that would make jeph's chronology make more sense is 
that x-treme x-men does not catch up in x-men(current)chronology(aka 
events in uncanny and new x-men) till the 5th issue

jesse

			*	*	*

I hereby volunteer to cover Slingers for the MCP...but....
Posted by Gary M. Miller on August 23, 2001 at 00:08:15:

Russ,

Okay, you got me doing Slingers, from #0 all the way to #12.  I have 
the Spidey books concurrently published those same months, so odds 
are I'll be able to place Spidey, but no promises....only thing I 
wanted to run by you was the special nature of the #1 issues.

Just making sure this is okay...there are the 4 special editions of 
#1 each with 16 pages that feature one of the four Slingers.  I'm 
thinking of using 5 designations for Slingers--that is, the 
following:

I use the abbreviation SLING for the title, natch.<p>SLING 1 - the 
ordinary 20-something pages of the book, common in all editions.

SLING 1D - the Dusk variant pages.

SLING 1H - the Hornet variant pages.

SLING 1P - the Prodigy variant pages.

SLING 1R - the Ricochet variant pages.

Is this agreeable?  Or does anyone have an alternate method of doing 
this?  If not, I'll go right ahead and work on the chrono starting 
tomorrow...well, today *s*

-Gary M.

			*	*	*

Re: I hereby volunteer to cover Slingers for the MCP...but....
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 23, 2001 at 10:56:54:
In Reply to: I hereby volunteer to cover Slingers for the MCP...but....
posted by Gary M. Miller on August 23, 2001 at 00:08:15:

This sounds as reasonable as any suggestion I've heard.

			*	*	*

Captain Britain #21-30 (1977) -- archived!
Posted by Jeph! on August 23, 2001 at 03:02:26:

Here we go again  a third round of MCP-style chronologies for issues 
21-30 of Marvel UK Ltd.'s 1976-77 "Captain Britain" series.

----

Captain Britain #21  Mar. 2, 1977 (7 pages)

Characters:
Prime Minister James Callaghan
STRIKE Commander Lance Hunter
Col. Nick Fury
The Red Skull
Captain Britain
Captain America
James "Jamie" Braddock, Jr.
Elisabeth "Betsy" Braddock (Psylocke)
(all last in CB #20)

a STRIKE telephone operator, Judy
a lorry driver, Ralph

Synopsis:  The Red Skull kidnaps Prime Minister Callaghan, ransoming 
him to STRIKE and SHIELD and threatening to detonate a germ bomb over 
London unless the British government surrenders.  Meanwhile, Captain 
Britain and Captain America are cleaning up the Skull's men that were 
holding CB's  siblings hostage.  CB reveals to them that he is really 
their brother Brian, and Captain America tries unsuccessfully to 
contact STRIKE and let them know that the two heroes are still alive.  
Captains Britain and America then hail down and commandeer a lorry, 
telling the driver to call STRIKE and send reenforcements to the 
Skull's hideout  but one of the drivers is secretly a Skull henchman, 
and as the Captains drive off, he burns the information given to 
them

Notes on the Braddock siblings:  there is a flashback in XCAL@2 that 
details a childhood playday between Jamie, Brian, and Betsy.  It is 
included on Captain Britain's chronology, but is missing from both 
Psylocke and Jamie's.  It should come just after baby Betsy and 
Brian's appearances in XCAL2 3-FB.  I've included the change below.

Notes on Captain America:  you still have him appearing in CB 19.  
He does not.  I've noted that change below.

Backup stories: (both reprints)
Fantastic Four (12 pages, B&W, with a new splash page)
Marvel Team-Up? (Spider-Man and Thor  7 pages)

----

Captain Britain #22  Mar. 9, 1977 (7 pages)

Characters:
Captain Britain
Captain America
Nick Fury
Lance Hunter
The Red Skull
Prime Minister Callaghan

a drunk, Leo

Synopsis:  Captains Britain and America attempt to infiltrate the 
Skull's dockland hideout, but are taken by surprised and attacked  
and surrender when the Skull threatens to kill Prime Minister 
Callaghan.  Meanwhile, the news of Callaghan's abduction reaches 
the papers, and Lance Hunter drugs Nick Fury so he can go before 
Parliament and urge the government to surrender to the Skull.  And, 
with thirty minutes left in Britain's deadline, the Skull prepares 
to execute Callaghan and both heroes

Backup stories: (both reprints)
Fantastic Four (11 pages, B&W)
Marvel Team-Up? (Spider-Man and Thor  7 pages, with a new splash 
page)

----

Captain Britain #23  Mar. 16, 1977 (7 pages)

Characters:
Captain Britain
Prime Minister Callaghan
Captain America
The Red Skull
Lance Hunter
Nick Fury
Chief Inspector Dai Thomas  (last in CB #16)

an old duffer, Paddy

Synopsis:  The Captains and Prime Minister Callaghan are about to 
be executed by the Red Skull, but at the last second, Lance Hunter 
calls to give the British government's formal surrender.  The Red 
Skull orders the Captains taken back to their cells, but they break 
loose and begin tearing into the Nazis.  Meanwhile, using the few 
hours he's bought, Hunter awakens Nick Fury to help him search for 
the Skull's germ bomb.  They find it, strapped to the back of the 
minute hand on Big Ben.  Meanwhile, Captain Britain has left Captain 
America to protect Callaghan and escaped the base.  He hails a 
passing police car, but behind the wheel is none other than his 
nemesis, Dai Thomas

Notes:  This is the last issue of Captain Britain in the color/B&W 
half-and-half format.  Issues 24-39 are fully black-and-white.

Also, Russ, you have Dai Thomas appearing in UX 127.  He does not 
appear in that issue.

Back-up stories:  (both reprints with new splash pages)
Fantastic Four (11 pages, B&W)
Marvel Team-Up? (Spider-Man and Thor  7 pages)

----

Captain Britain #24  Mar. 23, 1977 (7 pages, B&W)

Characters:
Lance Hunter
Captain America
Captain Britain
Dai Thomas
Timothy "Dum Dum" Dugan  (last in CB #19)
Nick Fury
The Red Skull
Prime Minister Callaghan

Synopsis:  While Lance Hunter struggles to climb Big Ben, the re-
captured Captain America and Prime Minister Callaghan face down a 
bomb the Red Skull has placed just outside their cell.  Meanwhile, 
Captain Britain strikes out at Dai Thomas and his patrolmen, 
commandeers their police car, and radios the location of the Red 
Skull's base to SHIELD.  Nick Fury leads an aerial attack on the 
Skull's base, while Captain Britain makes his way down to the cells.  
He spies the bomb, throws himself on it, and it explodes

Back-up stories:  (all B&W reprints)
Fantastic Four (9 pages)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (6 pages)
Marvel Team-Up (Spider-Man and Iron Man - 8 pages)

----

Captain Britain #25  Mar. 30, 1977 (7 pages, B&W)

Characters:
Captain Britain
Captain America
Prime Minister Callaghan
Nick Fury
The Red Skull
Lance Hunter

Synopsis:  As SHIELD and STRIKE attack the Red Skull's base, Captain 
Britain muffles the bomb's explosion with his staff's force field.  
He then frees Captain America and Prime Minister Callaghan, and while 
Callaghan makes his way safely out of the base, the two Captains head 
for the Skull.  High above, as STRIKE routs the Skull's men, Nick Fury 
also confronts the Skull directly -- but is distracted to see Captain 
America alive and well, and is shot by the Skull.  While they comfort 
Nick, the Skull threatens to set off the germ bomb on Big Ben sooner 
than midnight, and teleports away -- only to reappear on Big Ben 
itself, to find Lance Hunter ready to disarm the bomb.  The Skull 
seems set to kill Lance, until behind him, using the same teleporting 
equipment, materializes Captain Britain

Back-up stories:  (all B&W reprints with new splash pages)
Fantastic Four (11 pages)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (5 pages)
Marvel Team-Up (Spider-Man and Iron Man - 7 pages)

----

Captain Britain #26  Apr. 6, 1977

Characters:
Captain Britain
Lance Hunter
The Red Skull
Captain America
Nick Fury

Characters in flashback:
Captain Britain
Captain America
Mastermind III (the Braddock Manor sentient computer)

Synopsis:  As Big Ben inches closer to midnight, Captain Britain 
and the Red Skull grapple as Lance Hunter labors to disarm the 
bomb.  Captain Britain gets the upper hand of the Skull, and 
dangles him over the edge.  The Skull gloats that the bomb cannot 
be disarmed, because it is activated by remote control from his 
base.  Meanwhile, back at that base, Captain America cares for a 
recovering Nick Fury as STRIKE's men claim a decisive victory over 
the Skulls' troops.  Captain America tells Fury how he and Captain 
Britain escaped the explosion of Braddock Manor in issue #18, and 
the two exit the base quickly as STRIKE troops destroy it.  Back 
at Big Ben, the Skull is attempting to use his jet-boots to escape, 
but Captain Britain damages them and the Skull lands hard.  As Fury 
and Captain America show up, Big Ben tolls midnight  but the bomb 
fails to go off.  STRIKE's destruction of the Skull's computer 
prevented the fatal signal from being sent.  But, unnoticed on the 
ground, the injured Skull gropes for his personal teleporter

Notes: the flashback in this issue details how CB and CA survived 
the apparent destruction of Braddock manor in CB #18: Captain 
Britain used the computer to open a secret hatchway in the center 
of the room, and the two escaped into a bomb shelter while STRIKE 
bombed the manor.  (Of course, in later Marvel UK issues it is 
revealed that the manor never exploded: that Mastermind III, the 
manor's sentient computer, produced holograms that made the STRIKE 
bombers aim at a phony manor, while cloaking the real manor in a 
hologram of rubble and an empty lot.  I have maintained before 
that Mastermind remains a sentient entity capable of making on-
panel "appearances" whenever active, until Brian reprograms it in 
"The Daredevils" #2, but surely this activity surreptitiously 
taken by the computer should surely constitute at LEAST a BTS 
appearance on its own merits.  I am crediting Mastermind III with 
a full appearance in this FB, mainly because CB used him to open 
the hatchway.)  The flashback occurs between CB #18 and 19.

Back-up stories:  (all B&W reprints)
Fantastic Four (11 pages)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (5 pages)
Marvel Team-Up (Spider-Man and Iron Man - 7 pages, with a new 
splash page)

----

Captain Britain #27  Apr. 13, 1977 (7 pages, B&W)

Characters:
The Red Skull
Nick Fury
Lance Hunter
Captain America
Dai Thomas
Prime Minister Callaghan
President Jimmy Carter  (first appearance)
Lord Hawk (Professor Scott)  (first appearance)

Synopsis:  The Red Skull, gravely injured, manages to activate 
the mini-teleporter and makes good his escape, before the stunned 
eyes of four heroes.  Their business concluded, Hunter summons 
STRIKE and the SHIELD helicarrier, and the heroes debrief  
including a congratulatory call from US president Jimmy Carter.  
Meanwhile, Inspector Thomas is told to lay off Captain Britain 
by Prime Minister Callaghan himself, and Lance Hunter offers CB 
a place with STRIKE, which he declines.  A sleepy Captain Britain 
journeys back to his flat, pondering the magical events which 
gave him his powers in the first place, and finds a letter from 
an old professor waiting for him.  Brian muses on the mechanical 
hawk he built for the old man to ease his boredom in retirement  
cut to a polluting plant fifty miles to the north, as a strangely-
garbed old man commands his robotic hawk to attack, in the name 
of the environment

Notes: The flashback in this issue to CB's origin is, pretty much 
word-for-word, an accurate depiction.  It adds nothing new.

Notes on Jimmy Carter: in terms of publishing dates (April 1977 
versus November 1977), this is Jimmy Carter's first Marvel 
appearance.  I don't think we're ever going to get any evidence 
to refute this claim, so I'm running with it.  (Also, in his MCP 
chronology, he has two entries for "SABLE" issues 15 and 16  I 
assume that refers to "Silver Sable and the Wild Pack", but 
according to the Key, that book's designation is SSWP.  Hmm.)

Back-up stories:  (all B&W reprints)
Fantastic Four (11 pages, with a new splash page)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (5 pages, with a new splash page)
Marvel Team-Up (Spider-Man and the Human Torch - 8 pages)

----

Captain Britain #28  Apr. 20, 1977 (7 pages, B&W)

Characters:
Captain Britain
Lord Hawk
Courtney Ross  (last in CB #19)

Mrs. Anderson, the charwoman at Brian's flat

Characters in flashback 1:
Prof. Scott (Lord Hawk)
Brain Braddock (Captain Britain)

Characters in flashback 2:
Prof. Scott (Lord Hawk)
Brian Braddock (Captain Britain)
Sir James Braddock
Elizabeth Braddock

Characters in flashback 3:
Captain Britain
Prof. Scott (Lord Hawk)

Characters in flashback 4:
Lord Hawk

Synopsis:  Lord Hawk uses his mechanical hawk to destroy a 
polluting factory, proclaiming that he will destroy one a day 
until the earth is cleansed.  Afterwards, he and Brian muse 
concurrently about their mutual pasts: Brian thinking about 
how Professor Scott's hobby, hunting with hawks, ended in tragedy 
as all his pets died from air pollution, and how Brian, a student 
of Scott's, designed a mechanical hawk for him that would never 
die.  Meanwhile, Lord Hawk remembers how he modified the hawk 
into a weapon of destruction and began to wipe out all industrial 
polluters.  Brian calls Scott, asking to meet and reminisce.  
Scott, quite mad, agrees and begins to plot Brian's death.  The 
next day, Brian runs into Courtney Ross, but their conversation 
is short-lived as Brian spies the headline of a Times and 
realizes Scott is on a rampage

Notes: the flashbacks in this issue can get complicated: I'll 
deal with them one by one.

FB #2 comes first, occurring while Brian is still at University 
and before his parents' death.  It should occur between the FBs 
in The Daredevils #1 and CB #14.

FB #3 is actually the direct continuation of FB #2  there is no 
break  but at the beginning of the FB Brian's parents are still 
alive, and at the end Brian is testing the hawk, possessed of and 
confident with Captain Britain's powers.  A large gap exists 
between these two times, so I am treating them as two separate 
flashbacks  the break comes, if you're interested, at page 3, 
between panels 5 and 6.

FB #1 and 3 are intertwined; both dealing with Brian's building 
a hawk for Scott.  The sequence of events is:

(FB#3)  p3 pn 6; p4 pn 1
(FB#1)  p1 pn 1
(FB#3)  p4 pn 2-5
(FB#1)  p1 pn 2
(FB#3)  p4 pn 6
(FB#1)  p1 pn 3

but as these are two flashbacks contained within the same issue 
(indeed, separated by merely four pages), I am going to compress 
them into one FB entry below.  Russ, if you disagree with that, 
you have the full FB information above to mull over.  I am placing 
these FBs between CB #7 and 8, as that's the only place where there 
is a story break in which Brian is confident with his powers.  
(There are literally no story breaks between CB 8 and 27, and 
Brian wasn't practiced enough with his powers to have built and 
played with the hawk prior to that.)

Finally, FB #4 occurs last, dealing with Scott's decision to 
modify the hawk and turn to evil.  This, now, is a separate 
flashback  FB#1-3 are from Brian's memory, FB#4 is from Scott's, 
separated in the story by a return to the present day  but I 
can't help but think that in Scott's case, all the flashbacks 
in this issue should be compressed into one.  I've left them 
separate below  again, it's all up to you, Russ.  FB #4, featuring 
only Scott, takes place shortly before CB 27, and details the 
events in Scott's life that led up to him becoming Lord Hawk.

And, although you already have CB's "complete" chronology on the 
MCP, provided by me, I had previously left out these flashbacks.  
Oops.

Also, a note on the Braddocks: you have Sir James listed as 
appearing in XCAL2 2.  Incorrect  he appears in the FB in XCAL2 3, 
along with baby Brian and Betsy -- and his wife Elizabeth also 
appears.  This change has been noted below.

Back-up stories:  (all B&W reprints)
Fantastic Four (10 pages, with Jimmy Carter amusingly drawn in and 
re-dialogued to replace whichever president was there before)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (7 pages)
Marvel Team-Up (Spider-Man and the Human Torch - 7 pages, with a 
new splash page)

----

Captain Britain #29  Apr. 27, 1977

Characters:
Captain Britain
Lord Hawk

Synopsis:  Lord Hawk is lying in wait at his house for Brian 
Braddock to show.  But Brian has been alerted to Hawk's crimes, 
and shows up as Captain Britain.  Undaunted, Hawk orders his 
mechanical hawk to attack CB, and eventually knocks him 
unconscious.  Lord Hawk decides to follow CB back into the 
city, and defeat him in battle in front of hundreds of witnesses, 
so he implants a homing device beneath CB's skin and hides, 
letting him awaken and wander home.  Later that day, Hawk's 
device indicates that CB is on a train to London, so he sends 
his hawk to attack the train.   CB bursts out of the train 
window, confronts Hawk, and the battle is on

Back-up stories:  (all B&W reprints)
Fantastic Four (11 pages, with a new splash page)
Marvel Team-Up (Spider-Man and the Human Torch - 7 pages, with a 
new splash page)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (4 pages)

----

Captain Britain #30  May 4, 1977 (7 pages, B&W)

Characters:
Lord Hawk
Captain Britain
Dai Thomas
Courtney Ross

Synopsis:  Captain Britain fights Lord Hawk in Piccadilly Square.  
Courtney Ross, recognizing CB, rushes out into the street and is 
hit by a bus.  CB sees her safely to an ambulance, but Hawk has 
continued to attack others while he was distracted.  Inspector 
Dai Thomas hears of the fight and rushes to the scene, but Hawk 
hears the police and escapes, leaving CB to bear the blame, and 
flee from the police.  But Hawk is still tracking CB with his 
homing device, and the battle will continue

Back-up stories:  (all B&W reprints)
Fantastic Four (11 pages)
Marvel Team-Up (Spider-Man and the Inhumans  8 pages)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (5 pages)

----

And, as usual, here is my MCP-style roundup of all the information 
provided above.  New issue entries are marked with a *star.  Lord 
Hawk, the only new character entry, is marked as well, and the 
number and meaning of the FBs in his entry is, as stated above, 
available for modification by Russ.  Also, it appears that CB 18-27 
are already marked in the chronologies of Captain America and the 
Red Skull, and CB 21-30 in Captain Britain's, therefore they are 
included but not starred below.

BRADDOCK, ELIZABETH
XCAL2 3-FB
*CB 28-FB
CB 14-FB

BRADDOCK, JAMES
XCAL2 3-FB
*CB 28-FB
CB 14-FB

BRADDOCK, JAMES JR. "JAMIE"
*XCAL@2-FB
CB 8-BTS

CB 20
*CB 21
XCAL@2-FB


CALLAGHAN, JAMES
CB 17
CB 20
*CB 21
*CB 22
*CB 23
*CB 24
*CB 25
*CB 27

CAPTAIN AMERICA / STEVEN "STEVE" GRANT ROGERS

CB 18
(remove CB 19)
*CB 26-FB
CB 20
CB 21
CB 22
CB 23
CB 24
CB 25
CB 26
CB 27
CA 193


CAPTAIN BRITAIN / BRIAN BRADDOCK

DDS 1-FB
*CB 28-FB
CB 14-FB

CB 7
*CB 28-FB (possibly multiple?)
CB 8

CB 18
*CB 26-FB
CB 20
CB 21
CB 22
CB 23
CB 24
CB 25
CB 26
CB 28
CB 29
CB 30
CB 31


CARTER, JIMMY
*CB 27
CHAMP 16


DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS "DUM DUM"

CB 19
*CB 24
Q 1-FB


FURY, NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH

CB 20
*CB 21
*CB 22
*CB 23
*CB 24
*CB 25
*CB 26
*CB 27
CA 224BTS


HUNTER, LANCE

CB 20
*CB 21
*CB 22
*CB 23
*CB 24
*CB 25
*CB 26
*CB 27

**LORD HAWK / PROF. SCOTT  (new entry)
*CB 28-FB
*CB 28-FB (multiple?)
*CB 28-FB
*CB 27
*CB 28
*CB 29
*CB 30

MASTERMIND III

CB 18
*CB 26-FB

PSYLOCKE / ELISABETH "BETSY" BRADDOCK
XCAL2 3-FB
*XCAL@2-FB
CB 8

CB 20
*CB 21
XX 3-FB


THE RED SKULL / JOHANN SCHMIDT

CB 20
CB 21
CB 22
CB 23
CB 24
CB 25
CB 26
CB 27
SVTU 10


ROSS, COURTNEY

CB 19
*CB 28
*CB 30
SSM&CB 238


THOMAS, DAI

CB 16
*CB 23
*CB 24
*CB 27
*CB 30
(remove UX 127)
XCAL 1


----

This concludes another thrilling episode of archiving old Captain 
Britain comics!  In the next installment, I'll wrap up the first 
CB series, running through #39.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

In-continuity Marvel GNs?
Posted by Randy Tischler on August 23, 2001 at 11:19:30:

Does anyone have a list of all the Marvel GNs that are in continuity?  
Mark Gruenwald had this list in the back of one of the OHOTMU I 
believe:
Graphic Novel #1-Death of Captain Marvel
Graphic Novel #4-New Mutants
Graphic Novel #5-X-Men
Graphic Novel #12-Dazzler, The Movie    
Graphic Novel #16-Aladdin Effect
Graphic Novel #17-Revenge of the Living Monolith
Graphic Novel #18-She-Hulk
Graphic Novel #22-Spider-Man
Graphic Novel #23-Dr. Strange - Into Shamballa
Graphic Novel #24-Daredevil - Love and War
Graphic Novel #27-Emperor Doom

In addition to those, I would list:
Black Widow:  The Coldest War
Cloak and Dagger:  Predator and Prey
Conan
Conan the Barbarian:  The Witch Queen of Acheron
Conan of the Isles
Conan the Reaver
Daredevil/Black Widow:  Abattoir
Doctor Doom & Doctor Strange:  Triumph and Torment
Hercules:  Prince of Power -- Full Circle
Inhumans
Kull
Night Raven:  House of Cards
Power Pack & Cloak and Dagger:  Shelter from the Storm
The Punisher (Epic)
The Punisher:  Assassin's Guild
The Punisher/Black Widow:  Spinning Doomsday's Web
The Punisher:  Intruder
The Punisher:  Kingdom Gone
Raven Banner
Silver Surfer:  Homecoming
Silver Surfer:  Judgement Day
The Amazing Spider-Man:  Hooky
Spider-Man:  Fear Itself
The Thing and The Hulk
Thor:  I Whom The Gods Would Destroy
Wolfpack
Wolverine & Nick Fury:  The Scorpio Connection

Alternate timelines include:
Abslom Daak:  Dalek Killer
Iron Man:  Crash
Killraven, Warrior of the Worlds
Squadron Supreme:  Death of a Universe

Was Avengers Deathtrap:  The Vault a graphic novel or TPB?

To answer a question I had posted some time back (it's still way 
down there, but I figured people, like me, don't tend to look at 
anything that old for responses!), is the Marvel Dracula:  A 
Symphony in Moonlight and Nighmares by Jon J. Muth is not, in 
fact, in continuity.  It was later picked up by a non-Marvel 
publisher and re-printed (like a bunch of the Epic stuff that 
was creator-owned and later picked up by other publishers).

			*	*	*

Re: In-continuity Marvel GNs?
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 23, 2001 at 12:58:52:
In Reply to: In-continuity Marvel GNs?
posted by Randy Tischler on August 23, 2001 at 11:19:30:

The following are presently in the MCP:

Cloak & Dagger: Predator & Prey
Spider-Man: Hooky
Thing & Hulk: The Big Change
Thor: I, Whom the Gods Would Destroy

The next update will include Inhumans Graphic Novel, Punisher: 
Assassin's Guild, and Silver Surfer: Judgment Day.

I suspect Hercules: Full Circle is an alternate timeline.

			*	*	*

Re: In-continuity Marvel GNs?
Posted by Andy Holcombe on August 24, 2001 at 03:38:10:
In Reply to: Re: In-continuity Marvel GNs?
posted by Russ Chappell on August 23, 2001 at 12:58:52:

>> Was Avengers Deathtrap: The Vault a graphic novel or TPB?

Graphic Novel

> I suspect Hercules: Full Circle is an alternate timeline.

Yes it is.  It's set in the same alternate timeline as 2 limited 
serieses and a serial from Marvel Comics Presents.

In the alternate timeline section, there was also the Squadron 
Supreme: New World Order a couple of years ago that dealt with 
the return of the Squadron to their timeline.

Why do you propose the inclusion of the Conan graphic novels in 
the continuity?

I would like to submit the following list of graphic novels/one-
shots as being in continuity

Avengers: Deathtrap: The Vault
Black Knight: Exodus
Black Panther: Panther's Prey (4 issues)
Blade: Cresent City Blues
Captain America: The Drug Wars
Captain America: The Medusa Effect
Captain America/Nick Fury: Blood Truce
Captain Marvel (anti-hate)
Captain Marvel: Reborn
Captain Marvel: Speaking Without Concern
Colossus
Deathlok (4 issues)
Deadly Hands of Kung Fu
Eternals: The Herod Factor
Excalibur: Air Apparent
Excalibur: Mojo Mayhem
Excalibur: The Possession
Excalibur: The Sword Is Drawn
Excalibur: Weird War 3
Excalibur: XX Crossing
Fantastic Four: The Fantastic Fourth Voyage of Sinbad
Fury
Fury/Black Widow: Death Duty
Ghost Rider/Captain America: Fear
Ghost Rider/Wolverine/Punisher: Dark Design
Ghost Rider/Wolverine/Punisher: Hearts of Darkness
Ghost Riders: Crossroads
Havok & Wolverine: Meltdown (4 issues)
Incredible Hulk: Future Imperfect (2 issues)
Incredible Hulk: Hercules Unleashed
Inhumans (Atlantis Rising Prelude)
Inhumans: The Untold Saga
Longshot
Marc Spector: Moon Knight
Master of Kung Fu: Bleeding Black
Moon Knight: Divided We Fall
New Eternals: Apoclypse Now
Nick Fury Vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (6 issues)
Power Pack: Holiday Special
Punisher Invades the 'Nam: Final Invasion
Punisher: Blood on the Moors
Punisher: Bloodlines
Punisher: Die Hard in the Big Easy
Punisher: Empty Quarter
Punisher: Eye for an Eye
Punisher: G-Force
Punisher: No Escape
Punisher: P.O.V. (4 issues)
Punisher: The Ghosts of Innocents (2 issues)
Punisher: The Prize
Punisher/Captain America: Blood and Glory
Savage Hulk
She-Hulk: Ceremony (2 issues)
Silver Surfer: Dangerous Artifacts
Silver Surfer: The Enslavers
Spider-Man 2099 Meets Spider-Man
Spider-Man: Dead Man's Hand
Spider-Man: Man Men
Spider-Man: Parallel Lives
Spider-Man: Soul of the Hunter
Spider-Man: Spirits of the Earth
Spider-Man: The Parker Years
Spider-Man/Dr. Strange: Way to Dusty Death
Spider-Man/Kingpin: To the Death
Spider-Man/Punisher/Sabretooth: Designer Genes
Strange Tales (Dr. Strange, Human Torch, Thing)
Tales of Suspense (Captain America & Iron Man)
Tales of the Marvel Universe
Tales of the Marvels: Blockbuster
Tales of the Marvels: Inner Demons
Tales of the Marvels: The Wonder Years
Tales to Astonish (Henry Pym, Hulk, Wasp)
Untold Tales Of Spider-Man: Strange Encounter
Wolverine: Black Rio
Wolverine: Blood Hungry
Wolverine: Bloodlust
Wolverine: Doombringer
Wolverine: Evilution
Wolverine: Global Jeopardy
Wolverine: Inner Fury
Wolverine: Jungle Adventure
Wolverine: Killing
Wolverine: Knight of Terror
Wolverine: Rhane of Terror
Wolverine/Fury: Scorpio Rising
Wonder Man
X-Man: All Saint's Day
X-Men: Magneto War
X-Men: Spotlight on . . . the Starjammers (2 issues)

			*	*	*

Re: In-continuity Marvel GNs?
Posted by Randy Tischler on August 24, 2001 at 10:13:26:
In Reply to: Re: In-continuity Marvel GNs?
posted by Andy Holcombe on August 24, 2001 at 03:38:10:

> Why do you propose the inclusion of the Conan graphic novels in 
the continuity?

Isn't Conan, King Kull, Solomon Kane, Red Sonja, etc. considered 
Marvel pre-history?  I thought they were included in Marvel 
timelines...

> I would like to submit the following list of graphic novels/
one-shots as being in continuity

> Captain Marvel (anti-hate)

Is this the Monica one-shot?

> Captain Marvel: Reborn
> Captain Marvel: Speaking Without Concern

I haven't heard of these two, nor seen reference in price guides.  
Can you give a little background?

> Excalibur: The Sword Is Drawn

Do you mean Excalibur:  Sword of Power?  If not, what is this?  
Reprints?

> Punisher Invades the 'Nam: Final Invasion

My price guide says this is reprints (although doesn't call it 
"Final Invasion" so maybe it's different?)

> Spider-Man/Kingpin: To the Death

Not familiar with this one either.  Was it actually "Spider-Man/
Kingpin"?  Or just Kingpin in the title?

> Wolverine: Blood Hungry

My price guide says this is a reprint too.

> X-Man: All Saint's Day

I thought this was reprints, although never bothered picking it 
up.  Was it a 1-shot??

Randy

			*	*	*

Re: In-continuity Marvel GNs?
Posted by Andy Holcombe on August 24, 2001 at 13:52:08:
In Reply to: Re: In-continuity Marvel GNs?
posted by Randy Tischler on August 24, 2001 at 10:13:26:

> Isn't Conan, King Kull, Solomon Kane, Red Sonja, etc. considered 
Marvel pre-history?  I thought they were included in Marvel 
timelines...

I just have problems including licensed materials in the official 
continuity.  Micronauts and Rom did, and occassionally continue to, 
interact with other titles.  I agree that the Hyboriean Age is firmly 
set in Marvel history, and it probably had people much like Conan, 
Red Sonja, and Kull, but I don't think it had them, per say.

However, if they are canon, here's some more that may need to be 
included

Conan and the Ravagers of Time
Conan: The Horn of Azoth
Conan: The Rogue
Conan: The Skull of Set
Red Sonja

We may also want to include the Two-Gun Kid: Sunset Riders 2 issue 
series as well, then.

> > Captain Marvel (anti-hate)
> > Captain Marvel: Reborn

These two star Monica.  Reborn was in 1989 and the other is from 
1994.  Speaking Without Concern is listed on milehighcomics.com but 
its always out of stock and they don't have a cover, so I may be 
in error on it.

> > Excalibur: The Sword Is Drawn

> Do you mean Excalibur:  Sword of Power?  If not, what is this?  
Reprints?

This is the book that the Excalibur team debuted in.  This, in turn, 
lead into the regular series.

> > Punisher Invades the 'Nam: Final Invasion

> My price guide says this is reprints (although doesn't call it 
"Final Invasion" so maybe it's different?)

This was supposed to be a three issue arc in The 'Nam until that 
book got canceled.  This is the third Punisher arc in The 'Nam.  
It reads like a tradepaperback, complete with the covers to the 
individual issues, but the story hasn't been presented anywhere 
else.

> > Spider-Man/Kingpin: To the Death

> Not familiar with this one either.  Was it actually "Spider-Man/
Kingpin"?  Or just Kingpin in the title?

There's no "/" in the title, but that's how it's listed on 
milehighcomics.com.  On the issue cover it appears as

Spider-Man
----------
Kingpin
To the Death

Kingpin tries to regain his former stature in the criminal underworld 
and Spider-Man and Daredevil try to stop him.

> > Wolverine: Blood Hungry

> My price guide says this is a reprint too.

You're right.  I meant Bloody Choices

> > X-Man: All Saint's Day

> I thought this was reprints, although never bothered picking it 
up.  Was it a 1-shot??

This was a square bound book that was released during the pre-
Counter-X days.  As with most of the X-Man series, I've tried 
to forget about it, but I think it involved an attempt to by 
Nate Grey to cure his time limit.

			*	*	*

Re: Excalibur: The Sword is Drawn
Posted by Bernard Assaf on August 24, 2001 at 13:54:02:
In Reply to: Re: In-continuity Marvel GNs?
posted by Randy Tischler on August 24, 2001 at 10:13:26:

> > Excalibur: The Sword Is Drawn

> Do you mean Excalibur:  Sword of Power?  If not, what is this?  
Reprints?

IIRC, this is the one-shot that set up the Excalibur ongoing series, 
also known as Excalibur Special Edition.  It is archived here as 
XCALSE.

			*	*	*

Re: In-continuity Marvel GNs?
Posted by Nathanael Nerode on June 23, 2002 at 14:54:14:
In Reply to: Re: In-continuity Marvel GNs?
posted by Russ Chappell on August 23, 2001 at 12:58:52:

> > Does anyone have a list of all the Marvel GNs that are in 
continuity?  Mark Gruenwald had this list in the back of one of 
the OHOTMU I believe:
<snip>
> > Alternate timelines include:
> > Abslom Daak:  Dalek Killer

This is in a Doctor Who universe, obviously.  So are several "graphic 
novels" which are more obvious because they have the 'Doctor Who' 
title on them.  None of them, including Abslom Daak, are really 
graphic novels, though; they're all TPB reprint collections of DWM 
strips, occasionally with added bits.

			*	*	*

Man-Thing supporting cast
Posted by Scott Hutchins on August 23, 2001 at 13:46:20:

John Kowalski, who is unlisted, appeared in Man-Thing #10-11, and 
previosuly appeared in War Is Hell 9-15, as did Death.

In Astonishing Tales #12, we are introduced to Dr. Calvin, an elderly 
black woman who is part of Ted Sallis's research team, who is shot 
in the back, and is kept alive on a respirator.  Her son, Percy 
Ronald "Vinnie" Calvin is shown in the service of the Pusher in 
Astonsishing Tales #15.  I haven't read the followup issues yet, 
but I assume he appears in them, since we're left with a cliffhanger 
where Ka-Zar and Bobbi need to find Vinnie.

			*	*	*

Scarecrow II fix
Posted by Scott Hutchins on August 23, 2001 at 13:51:26:

It's The backup story in Dr. Strange 31, not 21.

			*	*	*

The Scavenger
Posted by Scott Hutchins on August 24, 2001 at 17:03:32:

The Scavenger, a villain who appeared in Man-Thing Volume 1, 19-21, 
is not listed

			*	*	*

Giant-Size Spider-Man #5
Posted by Scott Hutchins on August 24, 2001 at 17:08:46:

Does this take place before or after Giant-Size Man-Thing #5.  GSSM #5 
is not listed on the Man-Thing chronology, although he appears.  Based 
on the stories as listed in the chronology, it could only come right 
before or after, since MT 19-22 are a contiguous story.

			*	*	*

Re: Giant-Size Spider-Man #5
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 24, 2001 at 23:13:47:
In Reply to: Giant-Size Spider-Man #5
posted by Scott Hutchins on August 24, 2001 at 17:08:46:

What do you think? Don't take that the wrong way. You seem to be 
fairly fluent in the Man-Thing mythos, and I'm interested in what 
you think. The Official Index to Amazing Spider-Man is silent on 
the issue, saying only that the appearance in Giant-Size Spider-Man 
occurs between Man-Thing #18 and #19. I could read the books in 
question and issue a verdict, but methinks your're pretty familiar 
with them already, so I'd like to see if you have any thoughts on 
which way it fits better.

			*	*	*

Re: Giant-Size Spider-Man #5
Posted by Scott Hutchins on August 26, 2001 at 21:02:01:
In Reply to: Re: Giant-Size Spider-Man #5
posted by Russ Chappell on August 24, 2001 at 23:13:47:

Well, I have GS M-T #5, but GS-SM has not arrived yet, so I'll tell 
you then.

			*	*	*

Victorius/Dr. Conrad Victor
Posted by Scott Hutchins on August 24, 2001 at 22:49:52:

He has additional appearances in Giant-Size Man-Thing #1 and Marvel 
Two-in-One #42 & 43.

			*	*	*

James MacDonald Hudson/Weapon Alpha in DEADPOOL '98
Posted by Sean Curtin on August 25, 2001 at 01:18:10:

Anyone have any idea where the very brief appearance of Guardian I 
during the Weapon X Project flashback in DEADPOOL/DEATH '98 fits 
into the character's chronology?  For those who don't have the 
issue, he only appears in one panel, in brief.  The flashback in 
question occurs between DEADPOOL #-1 and the "hitchhiking" flashback 
in DPOOL3 36, for the sake of reference.

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Questionably Canon Deadpool Books
Posted by Sean Curtin on August 25, 2001 at 02:11:27:

On attempting to write up a chronology for all of the Deadpool 
books not yet included in the MCP, I found that some of them have 
highly dubious grounding in canon:

DEADPOOL #0 (published with SOME ISSUE OF WIZARD OR OTHER, I REALLY 
DON'T KNOW)

On the one hand, this resolves the "how did the Vamp come back from 
the dead" question from DPOOL3 6 (she/it didn't, it was a clone); on 
the other hand, the ending of this issue was never referenced 
elsewhere.  If DPOOL3 0 *is* canon, then we can assume that the 
three clones from the end of the issue a) broke down due to faulty 
manufacturing, b) were killed by Deadpool for some reason, c) got 
bored with Deadpool and left.

BABY'S FIRST DEADPOOL BOOK
(BFDPOOLB for the chronology)

Obviously, most of this is non-canon.  But "Make Way For Deadpool," 
the first story in the book, could concievably take place right 
after DPOOL3 11 (it references an aquarium visit).

DEADPOOL TEAM-UP
(DPOOLTU for the chronology)

Dubious canon-icity thanks to the Secret Wars II reference; however, 
Secret Wars II and the Beyonder were so silly that "Beyonder as Elvis" 
could have been a lost subplot (and a better one than half of SWII, 
might I add).  I put the beginning of the story, with Deadpool vs. 
the Beyonder, in the pages of SECRET WARS II #3, in the period of 
several days after the Beyonder's manager Vinnie leaves him but 
before he goes yachting and visits the Kingpin.  The sumo flashback 
would fit sometime before DPOOL3 -1.

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

DPOOL 0 (was Re: Questionably Canon Deadpool Books)
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 25, 2001 at 09:03:55:
In Reply to: Questionably Canon Deadpool Books
posted by Sean Curtin on August 25, 2001 at 02:11:27:

On 25 Aug, Sean Curtin spake:

I wrote up a handful of WIZARD #0s, but not DPOOL 0.  I used to 
have the book, but the naked clones of Uncle Ben and Aunt May at 
the end (I kid you not) forced me to trash it in the name of good 
taste.

Who wrote the book?  Maybe they could shed some light on the matter.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: DPOOL 0 (was Re: Questionably Canon Deadpool Books)
Posted by Sean Curtin on August 25, 2001 at 21:43:10:
In Reply to: DPOOL 0 (was Re: Questionably Canon Deadpool Books)
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 25, 2001 at 09:03:55:

> Who wrote the book?

Joe Kelly, same guy who wrote the first 33 issues of the series.  I 
think a question of "is this canon?" addressed to most creators 
would get a response of "does it matter?".

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Organizational suggestions
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 25, 2001 at 09:59:01:

We may want to consider adding new references to the "Closing the 
Gap" section, including ULCM 3 (to the Captain Marvel section), all 
known canon limited distribution books (most WIZARD #0s), and 
various graphic novels.  This would help us identify our needs in 
an organized fashion.

I am also curious about whether we are ready to start an MC2 page 
yet.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: Organizational suggestions
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 25, 2001 at 23:45:08:
In Reply to: Organizational suggestions
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 25, 2001 at 09:59:01:

> We may want to consider adding new references to the "Closing 
the Gap" section, including ULCM 3 (to the Captain Marvel section), 
all known canon limited distribution books (most WIZARD #0s), and 
various graphic novels.  This would help us identify our needs in 
an organized fashion.

Next update.

> I am also curious about whether we are ready to start an MC2 page 
yet.

If you mean adding to "Closing the Gap", I can do that, if I know 
the titles and issue runs. If you mean a page similar to the 
Killraven mythos, it would be an empty page.

			*	*	*

Re: Organizational suggestions
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 27, 2001 at 15:22:02:
In Reply to: Re: Organizational suggestions
posted by Russ Chappell on August 25, 2001 at 23:45:08:

I spake:
> I am also curious about whether we are ready to start an MC2 
page yet.

Then Russ spake:
> If you mean adding to "Closing the Gap", I can do that, if I 
know the titles and issue runs.  If you mean a page similar to 
the Killraven mythos, it would be an empty page.

Gotcha.  There's been:

THE BUZZ #1-3
DARKDEVIL #1-3
FANTASTIC FIVE #1-5
J2 #1-12
SPIDER-GIRL #0-37, annual 1999

In addition, there were "A-NEXT" and "WILD THING."  I never 
bought either.  There was also a SPIDER-GIRL one-shot through 
WIZARD (#0.5, IIRC).

Spider-Girl's first appearance was in an issue of WHAT IF? v2 
(don't know the #).  This story was reprinted in SPIDER-GIRL #0, 
but a letter column somewhere said that there were subtle changes 
(it didn't elaborate on what they were), so it *might* be necessary 
to include both origin tales.

Since we are taking on different timelines, do we want to take on 
one at a time, or list them all at once on the Gap pages and see 
who contributes what?  From what I can see, the major ones are MC2, 
2099, KR/Dargo/Guardians, Earth/Universe/Paradise X, and Marvel 
UK (which is largely part of the Mainstream).  I remember, Russ, 
that you have at least some of the Guardians books and planned to 
do them yourself at some point.

I don't want to flood you with work (as if you don't have enough 
on your hands as it is!), but I'd like to be aware of how the 
future of the MCP is roughly structured.  If a structure doesn't 
exist, we're more than happy to put together a plan of attack.

- StAKAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: Organizational suggestions
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 27, 2001 at 22:43:50:
In Reply to: Re: Organizational suggestions
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 27, 2001 at 15:22:02:

> Since we are taking on different timelines, do we want to take 
on one at a time, or list them all at once on the Gap pages and 
see who contributes what?  

I don't want to do everything at once, but by the same token, we 
don't have to wait for everything to be finished on Universe A 
before we open the gates on Universe B.

> From what I can see, the major ones are MC2, 2099, KR/Dargo/
Guardians, Earth/Universe/Paradise X, and Marvel UK (which is 
largely part of the Mainstream).  I remember, Russ, that you have 
at least some of the Guardians books and planned to do them 
yourself at some point.

To my knowledge, I have all of the Killraven/Dargo/GOTG books 
except for the Killraven book that came out about 4 months ago. 
I have very few MC2, 2099, or Marvel UK books, and none of the 
fill-in-the-blank X series.

> I don't want to flood you with work (as if you don't have 
enough on your hands as it is!), but I'd like to be aware of 
how the future of the MCP is roughly structured.  If a structure 
doesn't exist, we're more than happy to put together a plan of 
attack.

About a year ago, I published a game plan for the future. I said 
at the time that the idea was to reach the point where we were 
one month behind the current books. When we hit that milestone 
(and I said at the time that I didn't know how long that would 
take), we would first, add pages for Storm and Mr. Fantastic; 
second, work on closing the first gap; and third, add Invaders 
and GOTG to the Project.  With the update that we made two weeks 
ago, we were one month behind the current books. I added the 
Storm page and held off on the Mr. Fantastic page, cause I still 
haven't found a definitive graphic for Reed. I worked on closing 
the gap by adding the three Punisher titles for 1992 (and for 
the next update, am just about through with Marvel Comics Presents). 
So that leaves Invaders and Guardians of the Galaxy (while at the 
same time, trying not to fall behind on the current books). With 
either the next update or the one after that, I should be able to 
get my graphic novels out of the way.

As an aside, there are 4 or 5 graphic novels that I don't have, 
judging by a list that's shown up in another thread. I should 
mention though, that I don't consider prestige format books as 
graphic novels.

So that's the more-or-less immediate future. The moderate range 
plans include adding Micronauts. We're also going to have to break 
many more characters off into their own pages, since there are 
now 5 letters of the alphabet that take up more than 100k.

The long range plans (greater than six months away) are to add 
tracking of groups to the site.

About a year ago, I added the Closing the Gap section, and while 
a lot of books have been added as a result, as a percentage, it's 
still only about 50%, and the response has dropped off significantly 
in the last 4 months or so. I realize we went through a long dry 
spell in updating the site, and that was probably a contributing 
factor, but I think the Closing the Gap section, as it stands 
right now, may be nearing the end of its useful lifespan. I'm 
going to have to use a different approach to add the remaining 
books, methinks.

			*	*	*

Re: Organizational suggestions
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 28, 2001 at 16:01:13:
In Reply to: Re: Organizational suggestions
posted by Russ Chappell on August 27, 2001 at 22:43:50:

Russ spake:

> So that's the more-or-less immediate future. The moderate range 
plans include adding Micronauts.

Out of curiousity, are there any other substantial-length pre-Gap 
non-graphic-novel books that have yet to be included aside from 
MICRONAUTS?  That seems a noteworthy ommission.

As a side note, I don't know if such things exist, but are there 
new scenes in any WHAT IF flashbacks to pre-divergence points to 
add to the Project?  I remember reading that many writers can't be 
bothered to consider histories from alternate universes (assuming 
they're canon, such as GOTG) when writing Mainstream universe 
histories because of the volume of material to sift through.

> About a year ago, I added the Closing the Gap section, and while 
a lot of books have been added as a result, as a percentage, it's 
still only about 50%, and the response has dropped off significantly 
in the last 4 months or so.

Perhaps it just needs a bit of advertising every month or so on 
the Posting Board to boost awareness.

> I think the Closing the Gap section, as it stands right now, may 
be nearing the end of its useful lifespan.

I'm shocked to read this.  Perhaps I misunderstand.

> I'm going to have to use a different approach to add the 
remaining books, methinks.

I look forward to seeing it, but hope it doesn't superseed the 
CtG.

- sk

			*	*	*

X-Men:CotA query plus progress update on Slingers
Posted by Gary M. Miller on August 25, 2001 at 11:44:14:

Russ,

Just out of curiosity, is the X-Men limited series Children of 
the Atom regarded as in-continuity?  On the surface, it appears 
to be a greatly-expanded version of events referred to within 
the X-Men origins features originally run as back-up features 
in UXM...of course, I don't currently own those old issues, 
haven't read them in years, so they may tell the same story 
(but somehow I doubt it).  I know that the sum total of the 
LS revolves around the recruitment of all 5 original X-Men, 
and the formation of Professor X's school.  And the series occurs 
all previously to UXM 1, in fact finishing just before Jean 
Grey's introduction to the students (they don't even get to meet 
her in the course of the story).  Just wondering if this question 
has already been dealt with.

Secondly, I am hard at work on Slingers chronology and it's 95% 
done on paper....the only problems I am having are with the 
variant editions of #1....in the variant editions, all 4 Slingers 
participate in the clearing of a train wreck, and so all, pretty 
much, are BTS in all the other sections...and they even appear 
in a panel or two of each other's sections, but there *are* some 
continuity disruptions/outright contradictions, i.e. I've matched 
up most of the overlaps (page x panel 1 of book A shows the same 
action for, say, Hornet as does page y, panel 3 of book B--thus, 
concurrency?) but other sections of the same sequence appear to 
take place before, when in fact it is shown they take place 
after....well, am I making sense?  For convenience, I could just 
include the whole sequence as having occurred in everyone's 
variant edition, just one main and the other 3 BTS and not worry 
about placing the individual panel discrepancies...thoughts?

But #0 and #2-12 are shaping up pretty okay.  (Yes, I have minor 
corrections to Stakar Karnak's #0 chronology.)

-Gary

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men:CotA query plus progress update on Slingers
Posted by Sean Curtin on August 25, 2001 at 21:39:17:
In Reply to: X-Men:CotA query plus progress update on Slingers
posted by Gary M. Miller on August 25, 2001 at 11:44:14:

-> Just out of curiosity, is the X-Men limited series Children of 
the Atom regarded as in-continuity?

IIRC, it contradicts previously established canon on several 
points (notably in that the CotA X-Men all attend the same high 
school), so I don't think it is.  (Then again, Daredevil: Man 
Without Fear contradicts canon, but events from that series have 
been brought into MU canon...)

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men:CotA query plus progress update on Slingers
Posted by Gary M. Miller on August 26, 2001 at 21:17:51:
In Reply to: X-Men:CotA query plus progress update on Slingers
posted by Gary M. Miller on August 25, 2001 at 11:44:14:

Updating the Slingers stuff, I noticed that, further down the board 
(a couple weeks ago) someone posted chronology for Slingers.  Far as 
I can tell, it's about 90% accurate.  Nobody commented on it.  Did 
you see this stuff, Russ?

If you just want to use the existing chrono, it's cool, as like I 
said, it's about as accurate as I could get (with the exception of 
#1's, which are awful to organize).

Any other series worth working on?  Is anyone in charge of 
Micronauts?  I have the whole run and could probably easily work 
on that series...easy considering the guest-appearances are mostly 
taken care-of.

-Gary

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men:CotA query plus progress update on Slingers
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 27, 2001 at 22:53:44:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men:CotA query plus progress update on Slingers
posted by Gary M. Miller on August 26, 2001 at 21:17:51:

> Updating the Slingers stuff, I noticed that, further down the 
board (a couple weeks ago) someone posted chronology for Slingers.  
Far as I can tell, it's about 90% accurate.  Nobody commented on 
it.  Did you see this stuff, Russ?

Yes, I've seen it. I've finally managed to catch up with most of 
the email corrections I've received, but we're still woefully 
behind on adding stuff from the posting board. The last update 
included Jeph!'s analyses of Captain Britain 11-20, and you can 
see how far down the board that one is. Since I don't have Slingers 
any number of people can contribute analyses. Even if your analyses 
didn't add or change anything from that which has already been 
submitted, you can serve the cause of confirming what someone else 
has said. You mention that it's mostly correct. If you only want 
to point out the places where you disagree, it'll serve the same 
purpose. Up to you.

> If you just want to use the existing chrono, it's cool, as like 
I said, it's about as accurate as I could get (with the exception 
of #1's, which are awful to organize).

> Any other series worth working on?  Is anyone in charge of 
Micronauts?  I have the whole run and could probably easily work 
on that series...easy considering the guest-appearances are mostly 
taken care-of.

Thanks, but I have Micronauts and will be adding it, I hope in 
the next few months. The best place to get an overview of the 
books we're looking for is at Closing the Gap.

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men:CotA query plus progress update on Slingers
Posted by Lurker Kaine on November 04, 2001 at 03:49:16:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men:CotA query plus progress update on Slingers
posted by Russ Chappell on August 27, 2001 at 22:53:44:

As far as the Children of the Atom stuff goes...Casey himself while 
doing an interview for newsrama (or at least an interview that was 
posted on newsrama) basically said "yup, that's right...Children is 
the official origin.  Deal with it."

I honestly don't think I captured his rudeness properly--he was 
much worse about it.  But at least according to the writer, it is 
cannon.

Interesting note about such things--Was at a dragon con panel with 
paul jenkins last summer and one of the nuggets that slipped out 
was that he was told to ... ignore the chapter one stuff, treat it 
as a what if, or words to that affect.  

			*	*	*

Professor X in FF 102-104
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 25, 2001 at 17:38:00:

Hi, Russ.

I noticed in an earlier post that you decided not to include any 
parts of the story in FF 102-104 as a BTS for Professor X, claiming 
that his concurrent appearances in XMTHY are sufficient.  Why, 
then, is Captain Marvel BTS in FF 109-110 when he also appeared 
concurrently in A 89-FB-FB (listing the BTS in this case is 
consistent with the Marvel Indexes)?  

Is this another case of "apples" and "oranges"?  I'm guessing that 
your approach is consistent with the way Classic X-Men scenes are 
handled as they interweave with X-Men, Vol. 1.  Makes me wonder 
how George Olshevsky would deal with FF and XMTHY if indexes were 
published today...

Best,
Paul

			*	*	*

Chronology revisions -- FF and M/TIO
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 25, 2001 at 17:58:04:

Sean Kleefeld pointed out in a previous thread that in M/TIO 96, 
Reed Richards explains why the Thing was in the hospital in that 
issue  first he faced Gladiator (in FF 250) then was clobbered 
by Champion (in M/TIO@ 7). This clearly placed FF 250 right before 
M/TIO@ 7 and M/TIO 96.  The MCP, in keeping with the before-and-
after appearances noted in the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, 
Vol. 2, notes FF 250 as occurring some time after M/TIO 96.  The 
organizers of the Index apparently overlooked or ignored Reed's 
commentary from M/TIO 96.

Here is my attempt to recognize that commentary and place FF 249-250 
in its proper place in Marvel time with minimal disruption to existing 
MCP character chronologies.  I suggest moving FF 249-250 ahead in 
time so that those issues occur just before M/TIO@ 7 and organizing 
the various parts of FF 258 so they fall into place, with the first 
segment occurring right after FF 250, as suggested by the opening 
narrative in FF 258.  Here's the order:

FF 249  now occurring in June rather than October, so the "autumn" 
reference is topical; Julie Angel's history class would be held 
during a summer session instead of the fall semester

FF 250  follows from FF 249 (June)

FF 258 pg.  1-7  this scene with Dr. Doom occurs right after FF 
250 (June)

M/TIO@ 7  a span of a few days that occur before the Thing fully 
recovers from the battle in FF 250 (June)

M/TIO 96  Ben has landed in the hospital because of the events of 
M/TIO@ 7 (June)

FF 258 pg. 8-13  a day "some weeks" after FF 258 pg. 1-7 (perhaps 
early July)

FF 258 pg. 14-17  "two days" after FF 258 pg. 8-13; Ben is still 
in the hospital and Cap and Iron Man visit him (perhaps early July)

The members of the FF have many adventures once Ben recovers, and 
the final installment of FF 258 (pages 17-22) is supposed to occur 
"exactly six weeks" after FF 258 pg. 14-17.  However, chronological 
analysis of the rest of the Marvel Universe suggests that that last 
installment occurs five months later, in November.  Placing that 
segment in November helps keep disruption of existing chronologies 
to a minimum, but also depends on some references (such as Christmas 
in M/TU 127) being topical.

Here are my proposed revisions (involving FF 249, FF 250, and FF 258) 
to the chronologies of affected characters:

Thing  
M/TIO 95
FF 249 (moved)
FF 250 (moved)
M/TIO@ 7
M/TIO 96
FF 258-FB-BTS (new)
FF 266-FB

Mr. Fantastic and Human Torch II  
M/TIO 92
FF 249 (moved)
FF 250 (moved)
M/TIO@ 7

Invisible Woman  
COC 3
FF 249 (moved)
FF 250 (moved)
M/TIO@ 7

Franklin Richards  
H2 278
FF 249 (moved)
FF 250 (moved)
M/TIO 96

Alicia Masters  
M/TIO 95
FF 250 (moved)
M/TIO@ 7

Spider-Man  
COC 3-BTS
FF 250 (moved)
M/TIO@ 7

Captain America  
M/TIO 92
FF 250 (moved)
M/TIO@ 7
M/TIO 96
FF 258-FB (new)
V&SW 3

Iron Man  
COC 3
M/TIO@ 7
M/TIO 96
M/FAN 4/3
FF 258-FB (new)
V&SW 3

Bernie Rosenthal  
CA 279
FF 250 (moved)
CA 281

One question  is SENTRY 2-FB tied into FF 250 at all?  I notice 
it's listed right after FF 250 in several characters' chronologies, 
but I don't have this issue.

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology revisions -- FF and M/TIO
Posted by SKleefeld on August 30, 2001 at 14:41:27:
In Reply to: Chronology revisions -- FF and M/TIO
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 25, 2001 at 17:58:04:

> One question  is SENTRY 2-FB tied into FF 250 at all?  I notice 
it's listed right after FF 250 in several characters' chronologies, 
but I don't have this issue.

I'm probably at least partially to "blame" for that one. A lot of 
the flashbacks in Sentry are ambiguous; that is, there are vague 
references to artistic and writing styles, but little in the way 
of specific story references to chronologically pinpoint most of 
it. 

The flashback there, IIRC, was an illustration of "The Wedding of 
the Century" faux cover where Sentry married what's-her-name. It 
was distinctly a John Byrne style drawing and, I believe, showing 
the issue as Startling Stories #250. (Maybe #300; I don't have my 
books in front of me.) In the various ceremony flashbacks, it also 
shows Tony Stark to still be heavily under the influence of alcohol. 

I "suggested" placing the Sentry wedding flashbacks around a big 
anniversary area, most likely either FF #236 (25th anniversary of 
Marvel) or #250. #250 makes more sense given that the alcohol story 
over in Iron Man wasn't going on as early as FF #236.

I believe there's also a flexible-enough gap immediately after FF 
#250, judging from the Cap and Spider-Man appearances that placing 
Sentry's wedding there makes chronological appearances fairly easy 
to manage.

- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology revisions -- FF and M/TIO
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 30, 2001 at 17:32:06:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology revisions -- FF and M/TIO
posted by SKleefeld on August 30, 2001 at 14:41:27:

Because SENTRY 2-FB seems to be rooted in Iron Man's chronology 
where you've placed it (between A 232 and IM 171), SENTRY 2-FB 
should remain where it is in other characters' chronologies; it 
should not be moved up with FF 249 and 250.

(I'm concluding from your post that there's some kind of tabloid 
photo of Tony Stark in the FB and that Cap, Reed, Sue, Ben, Sentry, 
and others appear in the wedding photo in that same tabloid??)

So Reed and Sue appear in SENTRY 2-FB between A 232 and A@ 12

Cap appears in SENTRY 2-FB between M/TU 128 and A@ 12

The Thing appears in SENTRY 2-FB between THING 23-FB and THING 1
(uh oh...what's M/FAN 14 doing there between SENTRY 2-FB and THING 1?; 
it needs to be between M/TIO@ 3 and FF 202!)

Sean, who else is in that FB?

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology revisions -- FF and M/TIO
Posted by SKleefeld on August 31, 2001 at 11:39:56:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology revisions -- FF and M/TIO
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 30, 2001 at 17:32:06:

> Because SENTRY 2-FB seems to be rooted in Iron Man's chronology 
where you've placed it (between A 232 and IM 171), SENTRY 2-FB 
should remain where it is in other characters' chronologies; it 
should not be moved up with FF 249 and 250.

> (I'm concluding from your post that there's some kind of tabloid 
photo of Tony Stark in the FB and that Cap, Reed, Sue, Ben, Sentry, 
and others appear in the wedding photo in that same tabloid??)

The first shot, IIRC, is simply the "cover" of the Sentry's wedding 
issue: the comic that WOULD have been published if the whole Sentry 
bit was real. Then it goes into about 2 pages of an actual flashback 
during the wedding reception where we see Reed and Sentry talking, 
and several other heroes mingling around. Tony Stark's dialogue is 
slurred and I believe Reed even asks Ben to keep an eye on Stark.

> Sean, who else is in that FB?

I actually wrote a FULL report on Sentry right after the series 
finished. You can follow the threads for the couple of minor 
revisions that came up.

			*	*	*

A Sentry chronology question
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 06, 2001 at 07:06:53:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology revisions -- FF and M/TIO
posted by SKleefeld on August 31, 2001 at 11:39:56:

Hi, Sean,

I checked out your posting on the chronology of the Sentry -- quite 
impressive!

One question:
Sentry #1, page 9, panels 2-5
You have Iron Man appearing here in his "golden bucket" armor and 
state that this segment must occur before Avengers #3, and that 
would be correct.  But you also have Captain America appearing in 
this segment.  If he is active with the Avengers (and not frozen 
in an iceberg), then this segment would have to occur after Avengers 
#4.  Do we indeed have Cap and a "golden bucket" Shellhead together 
in this segment?  If so, I'd have to say that the segment occurs 
after Avengers #4 and that Tony had to wear his old armor for some 
unknown reason.

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: A Sentry chronology question
Posted by SKleefeld on September 06, 2001 at 15:48:21:
In Reply to: A Sentry chronology question
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 06, 2001 at 07:06:53:

Yeah, that was one of the threads the we discussed afterwards. I 
think I figured that the Sentry story must occur shortly after 
Avengers #4, while Tony was still working the kinks out of his "new" 
armor.

- Sean

			*	*	*

Transformers
Posted by Scott Hutchins on August 26, 2001 at 21:15:57:

Why is Transformers listed on the key?  Marvel has always insisted 
it was not in the MArvel Universe, despite Shockwave running around 
in the savage land and Spider-Man (with alien costume) appearing, 
both in issue #3, apparently a holdover of setting Rom and The 
Micronauts in the Marvel Universe.  Anyway, I noted Spider-Man's 
appearance in #3 (which that issue notes took place before ASM 258, 
as Spider-Man is still in autochanging alien costume.

			*	*	*

Re: Transformers
Posted by ShadZ on August 27, 2001 at 11:46:19:
In Reply to: Transformers
posted by Scott Hutchins on August 26, 2001 at 21:15:57:

I can't tell you about how Transformers is treated here, but I can 
tell you the general fan concensious on Tranformer's canon status:

When the first 10 issues or so of Transformers were written, Marvel 
intended it to be in the MU (like ROM and Micronauts had been).  But 
as the series went on, the successful toy line caused the number of 
Transformers characters that HAD to be featured in the books to 
multiply, leaving no room for MU guest stars.  Eventually, with the 
Transformers/GI Joe miniseries, Marvel admitted that the Transformers 
were in some Hasbro Universe, not the Mainstream MU.

Sow how to explain Spider-Man's appearnce in Transformers?  That 
was the Hasbro Universe Spider-Man.

So how to explain the appearence of Transformers character Circut 
Breaker in Secret Wars II?  Well, either:

A) The Beyonder pulled Circut Breaker from the HU for some reason

B) that was the only appearence of the MU Circut Breaker

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Re: Transformers
Posted by Nathanael Nerode on June 20, 2002 at 18:43:37:
In Reply to: Re: Transformers
posted by ShadZ on August 27, 2001 at 11:46:19:

Heh.  Then you get into Death's Head.  He starts out as a giant-
sized villain in Transformers.  He gets sucked into Doctor Who 
Magazine, shrunken, and turned into a good guy.  He comes out in 
the Marvel UK Universe.

Now, there was a brief period when Marvel seemed to think that 
its Doctor Who Magazine stories were set in the Marvel Universe, 
which this coincided with; however, both before and afterwards (!) 
they stated that the Doctor Who comics *weren't* in the Marvel 
Universe.  

The Marvel UK universe was, at at least one time, supposed to be 
the same as the Marvel Universe, but  I believe there was some 
attempt to distance the two after Marvel UK went bankrupt.

So where does this leave Death's Head?  Well, in the Doctor Who 
comic he appears in, it is implied that he has come out of another 
universe and is being sent into a third... even though the 
subsequent appearance of the Doctor in Death's Head  treats it 
all as one universe...

This is not really untanglable, but it's fun to try.

			*	*	*

Ghost Rider/Dan Ketch missing issues....
Posted by douglas C on August 27, 2001 at 06:34:26:

Does anyone have any ideas on the missing Ghost Rider III issues 
and chronology?  That includes appearances in the Marvel Holiday 
specials, Terror Inc, etc, as well as all the others.  I am working 
on my own and wonder what you may think.

			*	*	*

Terror Inc &amp; Ghost Rider
Posted by douglas C on August 27, 2001 at 06:38:07:

Does anyone know where Terror Inc 11 fits into Ghost Rider III (Dan 
Ketch) chronology???

			*	*	*

Re: Terror Inc &amp; Ghost Rider
Posted by SKleefeld on August 30, 2001 at 14:44:44:
In Reply to: Terror Inc & Ghost Rider
posted by douglas C on August 27, 2001 at 06:38:07:

I don't know if this will help at all or not, but here's how Terror, 
Inc fits in with Power-Man's chronology...

Cage 11 
Cage 12 
Cage 13 
Cage 14 
Terror Inc. 11 
Cage 15 
Silver Sable and the Wild Pack 13 
Terror Inc. 12 
Cage 16 
Silver Sable and the Wild Pack 14 
Cage 17 
Cage 18 
Cage 19 

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Sean

			*	*	*

Question about revisions...
Posted by AnonymousED on August 28, 2001 at 09:59:52:

I've wondered about this for sometime, but what are you guys doing 
about revision story's at Marvel?  The biggest example is Spiderman: 
Year One.  Has everyone agreed that this origin tale just didn't 
happen?

And there was an issue of FF3 written by Chris Claremont which 
featured a flashback to a slightly different version of the FF's 
origin. And a couple of years ago, after the new Hulk series began, 
John Bryne did a remake of the Hulk's origin. Is that now canon as 
well?

			*	*	*

Re: Question about revisions...
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 28, 2001 at 15:45:28:
In Reply to: Question about revisions...
posted by AnonymousED on August 28, 2001 at 09:59:52:

AnonymousED spake:

> I've wondered about this for sometime, but what are you guys 
doing about revision stories at Marvel?  The biggest example is 
[SPIDER MAN: CHAPTER ONE].  Has everyone agreed that this origin 
tale just didn't happen?

Yep.

> And there was an issue of FF3 written by Chris Claremont which 
featured a flashback to a slightly different version of the FF's 
origin.

Doesn't ring any bells.  Where's Sean?

> And a couple of years ago, after the new Hulk series began, John 
Bryne did a remake of the Hulk's origin.  Is that now canon as well?

HULK: CHAPTER ONE was officially retconned (booted out of continuity) 
in an issue of CAPTAIN MARVEL v5.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: Question about revisions...
Posted by SKleefeld on September 06, 2001 at 16:04:02:
In Reply to: Re: Question about revisions...
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 28, 2001 at 15:45:28:

> > And there was an issue of FF3 written by Chris Claremont which 
featured a flashback to a slightly different version of the FF's 
origin.

> Doesn't ring any bells.  Where's Sean?

You called?

Yes, Claremont did try tweaking the FF origin a bit in FF #11v3 and 
#12v3. At first glance, it doesn't mesh particularly well with the 
Lee/Kirby version, but it can be done.

I've actually gone ahead and done a panel-by-panel breakdown 
(including retellings) of the ENTIRE history of the FF prior to FF 
#1v1...

http://www.ffplaza.com/database/PreHistory.html (Pre-History of the 
Fantastic Four)

You can see there how exactly Claremont's version coincides with 
everything else.

> > And a couple of years ago, after the new Hulk series began, 
John Bryne did a remake of the Hulk's origin.  Is that now canon 
as well?

> HULK: CHAPTER ONE was officially retconned (booted out of 
continuity) in an issue of CAPTAIN MARVEL v5.

Heh heh. Right when Paul Jenkins took over Hulk, somebody asked 
him at a Con whether it was a gamma laser (per Byrne) or gamma 
bomb (per Lee/Kirby). Paul's answer was: "It was a f***ing gamma 
bomb!" 

- Sean

			*	*	*

Followup on Spidey chronology: A3 10 and 11 and others...
Posted by AnonymousED on August 28, 2001 at 16:55:07:

Okay, here is my presentation.  What brought me to bring this up 
was that I was wondering if you had taken into account in Spidey 
and other's chronology the fact that there was a few months that 
SPidey didn't wear the costume between S-M 98 and ASM2 1.  

I originally said it was 6 months because that's what I remember 
reading in Wizard.  But the comic never really states as far as 
I can tell, but we do know that "months" have passed.  The Human 
Torch and the Narrator in ASM2 1 and PPSM2 1 say as much.  

So how to take this gap of Peter Parker not wearing the costume 
into consideration.  Well, he can make appearances out of costume, 
(take T2 5 for example) but none other than that.  It was then that 
I noticed that A3 10 and 11 were placed at (at least to me) odd 
places in several characters chronologys.  

It was one of the last appearances by Peter Parker as Spiderman 
before his break, but you and I, (that's you Russ) differ on when 
A3 10 and 11 happened.  That's okay.  It's debatable. But to 
reissue my point, in A3 10, before the battle even starts, Spidey 
is in costume overhead the parade.  But he had just got done 
swearing to Mary Jane in the hospital that he wasn't going to be 
Spiderman again, (this was in S-M 98). While he may have felt 
compelled to join the fray in A3 11, I don't see him just hanging 
out on rooftops watching a parade in costume.  But that's just me. 
So anyway, here is my revised chronology for Spidey around this 
area.

In my listing, I felt that A3 10 and 11 happened at some point 
before Spidey's final battle with the Goblin. But since I don't 
have some of those issues, I left that part undecided. But in this 
listing, A3 10 and 11 happen before this:

PPTSS 263
S-M 98
SM:RGG 1-FB
S-M 98
T2 5
WTS 1/2
ASM2 1/3
PPSM2 1/2
ASM2 1
DD2 1-BTS
PPSM2 1
ASM2 2
DD2 8
T2 8
PPSM2 2
and so on...

Next, Daredevil.  You mentioned that DD's current stories probably 
happened back a couple years ago thanks to the slow pace of DD's 
being released.  I had, (and you mostly have too) DD's new issue 1 
and Spidey's new issue 1 and subsequent story arcs happening around 
the same time. After all, they were published in those same last 
months of 1998.

So:

DD 379
ASM 438
A3 10
A3 11
NHAWK 1
NHAWK 2
NHAWK 3
ASM2 1
DD2 1
DD2 2
DD2 3
DD2 4
DD2 5
DD2 6
DD2 7
DD2 8
DD: Y

That's pretty simple. Now to make another point, as I mentioned 
previously, you have PPSM2 6 happening after the Trial of the 
Kingpin in DD2 13-15. I can tell because you have DD/SM 1 and 2 
in Spidey's chronology as happening before PPSM2 6, and in DD's 
chronology, you have DD/SM 1 and 2 as happening right after the 
trial, and after Kinpin is shot and seemingly disfigured.  So 
that seems to conflict because you have Kingpin looking A-OK in 
PPSM2 6.

So I reckomend a quick fix for Kingpin as such:

S-M 95
DD2 6
PPSM2 7-FB
PPSM2 6
PPSM2 7
PPSM2 8
PPSM2 13
DD2 9
DD2 10-FB
DD2 10
DD2 11-bts
DD2 13
AND SO ON...I haven't read IFW 1, ASM2 28-BTS, or IM3 37, so I 
don't know what Kingpin's condition is in those...

Crud, out of time...I'll give more tomorrow or Thursday.  One last 
correction:

You have in Hulk's chronology A3 10 coming after H 474. This can't 
be because Banner states in A3 10 that's he's got to find out who 
is behind the killing of his wife. But by H 474, Banner knows it 
was the Abomination. So a correct chronology would be thus:

H 468
A3 10
H 469
H 470

And so on.  I placed A3 10 right after Banner discovers someone 
else was responsible for his wife's death. So that makes more sense.

Any questions?

I'll post tomorrow or THurs. a followup.

			*	*	*

The follow up on chronology...
Posted by AnonymousED on August 29, 2001 at 14:48:16:
In Reply to: Followup on Spidey chronology: A3 10 and 11 and others...
posted by AnonymousED on August 28, 2001 at 16:55:07:

Okay, as promised, here are some other notes I've made concerning 
this matter. As I've stated, there an unspecified amount of months 
that Peter Parker wasn't dressed as Spiderman.  So, the question 
arises: What were the other Marvel hero's doing during these months 
off. They weren't sitting around doing nothing.  But let's take Mr. 
Fantastic's chronology for instance.  You have in his chronology 
A3 10 and A3 11, followed by ASM2 1.  That's a period of months.  
So here's what I came up with for him and others.

Mr. Fantastic
FF3 9-FB
H 467-FB
FF3 9
A3 10
A3 11
PPTSS 263
S-M 98
UX/FF '98
FF3 10
FF3 11-BTS
FF3 12
BFF:RR 1
BFF:RR 2
BFF:RR 3
SS 146
INH2 4
ASM2 1
DD2 8
ASM2 4
FF3 13

Captain America
XCAL 125
A3 5
A3 6
T2 1
T2 2
CA3 8
QS-10-BTS
A3 7
A '98
CA3 9
CA3 10
CA3 11
CA3 12
FF3 9
A3 8
A3 9-FB
A3 9
IM3 10
XM 46
H 470
AVF 1
A3 10
A3 11
IM '98-FB
IM '98
SS3 146
T2 6
CA '98
ASM2 1
DD2 8
W '99/2
A3 12

Thor
CA3 7
T'99
A3 5
A3 6
T2 1
T2 2
T2 3
T2 4
A3 7
A '98
H 467-FB
A3 8
XM 46
A3 10 
A3 11
T2 5
IM '98-FB
SS3 146
T2 6
T2 7
ASM2 1
A' 99
A3 13

By the way, I put A3 5 and 6 before T2 1-4 because of the need to 
get the issues of Thor's second series as close together as possible.  
There's no reason why those events couldn't have happened in that 
order anyway, because A3 5 was published in April of that year, and 
T2 1 was published in May.

Iron Man
H2 465
IM3 6
A3 5
A3 6
T2 1
T2 2
IM3 7
A3 7
A '98
A3 8
A3 9-FB
A3 9
IM3 8-FB
IM3 8
IM:BB 4-FB
IM3 8
IM3 9
IM3 10
IM3 11-FB
AVF 1-FB
AVF 1
A3 10
A3 11
T2 5
IM '98-FB
IM '98
IM3 11
IM3 12
IM3 13
ASM2 1
>A '99
A3 13

I haven't done this for any of the other members of the FF and 
Avengers who appeared in A3 10 and 11, but you get the idea. Stuff 
happened in between A3 10 and 11 and ASM2 1 thanks to Spidey taking 
time off.

This concludes my presentation.

			*	*	*

Flashbacks in Tangled Web: The Thousand
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 28, 2001 at 20:23:49:

I just picked up Tangled Web: The Thousand #1-2 in a quarter bin at 
my local comic store and was wondering if any Spidey fans out there 
care to place the flashbacks in that series into the Wall-crawler's 
chronology.

The flashback in TWTT 1 illustrates two separate incidents before 
the fateful spider bite in which Carl King torments Peter Parker.

The flashback in TTWT 2 shows scenes from AF 15 as seen from Carl 
King's perspective, so there is an intricate tie-in to the detailed 
chronology Russ has prepared for Spider-Man's origin.  Just how do 
these new/recast scenes fit into that chronology?

As for TWTT 3, I'm not sure if more flashbacks are shown there since 
I don't have the issue.

If Russ isn't yet working on this, are there any takers?

Paul

			*	*	*

Question about Special Edition: X-Men #1
Posted by Gary M. Miller on August 28, 2001 at 23:40:24:

To anyone who can help with this one--

I know that Special Edition: X-Men #1 (or, as I call it, X-Men 
Special Edition #1...rather abbreviate XMSE than SEX) reprints 
Giant-Size X-Men #1.  I also know that as per the cover it has 
12 new pages by Claremont and Cockrum.  Would anyone mind indulging 
my curios side and telling me what the 12 new pages are?  I've 
noticed that some of the New Mutants (most likely the X-Men, too, 
though I haven't checked) have chronology entries that fit here...
why?  I don't want to fork out 10 bucks to buy the book unless it's 
worth it, and I'd rather find out what these 12 new pages are, first.

Thanks in advance,

-Gary M. Miller

			*	*	*

Re: Question about Special Edition: X-Men #1
Posted by ShadZ on August 29, 2001 at 15:20:53:
In Reply to: Question about Special Edition: X-Men #1
posted by Gary M. Miller on August 28, 2001 at 23:40:24:

The new story is Kitty taking Illyana on a tour of the X-Mansion 
and grounds.  It turns out that Illyana wanted the tour because . . .

SPOILER WARNING

Illyana was keeping Kitty out of the way while everyone else gathered 
for Kitty's surprise birthday party!

On the last page, everyone who was at the X-Mansion at the time is 
at Kitty's party, including the New Mutants and the Starjammers . . .

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Question about Cap's appearance in KBSS 12
Posted by Giant Ant on August 29, 2001 at 19:25:56

Hi

Some time ago, a poster on the Captain America message board 
(www.comicboards.com) asked what exactly was Cap's appearance 
in Kent Blake of the Secret Service #12 (wich you have listed).  
Another poster then looked in his own copy of the book, and he 
couldn't find any appearance by Cap in it.  

I would just want to know if any of you guys could explain to me 
why the book is in Cap's chronology.

thanks a lot for any replies
TT

			*	*	*

Re: Question about Cap's appearance in KBSS 12
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 30, 2001 at 16:58:49:
In Reply to: Question about Cap's appearance in KBSS 12
posted by Giant Ant on August 29, 2001 at 19:25:56:

Sounds like it might be a mistake. Thanks.

Russ

			*	*	*

Re: Question about Cap's appearance in KBSS 12
Posted by ajmmad on August 30, 2001 at 17:30:11:
In Reply to: Re: Question about Cap's appearance in KBSS 12
posted by Russ Chappell on August 30, 2001 at 16:58:49:

>One of the replies in the thread on the Captain America Message 
Board theorized that it might be the particular issue of Kent 
Blake (12) that is the mistake--that Cap might actually appear 
in another issue of Kent Blake. It *does* seem rather odd to think 
that this obscure early '50s book just turned up in the list of 
Cap appearances for no reason. Any clues?

Ajmmad, The Inordinate

			*	*	*

