Man-Thing and Spider-Man
Posted by Scott on October 01, 2001 at 18:11:46:

Although I have not yet read these issues to search for clues, a 
preliminary glance suggests M-T #19 takes place immediately after 
GSS-M #5, placing GSM-T #5 before it, however, GSS-M #5 has a July 
cover date, and GSM-T #5 has an August cover date.  We know both 
issues are set between issue #18, and #19 of M-T.  Since GSS-M #5 
was handled by Gerry Conway and Gene Colan and GSM-T #5 was Steve 
Gerber/Ed Hannigan, it may just be a coincidence, since it never 
says whose house that is in the background of the splash page of 
M-T #19, which was illustrated by Jim Mooney.

			*	*	*

Re: Man-Thing and Spider-Man
Posted by Scott on October 01, 2001 at 18:14:45:
In Reply to: Man-Thing and Spider-Man
posted by Scott on October 01, 2001 at 18:11:46:

a character not currently listed in the MCP who appears in GSS-M #5 
is Edward Arnstead.

			*	*	*

Re: Man-Thing and Spider-Man
Posted by Scott on October 01, 2001 at 20:38:48:
In Reply to: Re: Man-Thing and Spider-Man
posted by Scott on October 01, 2001 at 18:14:45:

GSM-T #5 is set before the events of Savage Tales #1.  In it Ted and 
Ellen go to a carnival where they are given drugs and hallucinate 
about The Man-Thing before he even came to exist.  It ends with them 
speeding off to the Everglades.  This is a frame story for three 
different stories by different teams.

			*	*	*

An Omega question
Posted by BJ on October 02, 2001 at 00:07:16:

I apologize if this is not the right place for this---I'm new to 
this board---but do you guys consider James-Michael Starling an 
important part of the OMEGA mythos?  I ask because he is not listed 
on your chronology lists.  This post is NOT meant as a slam on you 
guys---this website is incredible---but I was just wondering your 
position on James-Michael.  Thanks for your assistance.  Keep up 
the wonderful work on the MCP!!!

			*	*	*

Re: An Omega question
Posted by Russ Chappell on October 02, 2001 at 22:37:37:
In Reply to: An Omega question
posted by BJ on October 02, 2001 at 00:07:16:

I think he should be included. Offhand, do you know if he's appeared 
anywhere outside of Omega? Was he in Defenders?

			*	*	*

Re: An Omega question
Posted by BJ on October 03, 2001 at 17:06:50:
In Reply to: Re: An Omega question
posted by Russ Chappell on October 02, 2001 at 22:37:37:

I know he was in DEFENDERS #s 76-77.  He might have been in DEFENDERS 
#75, but I'm not sure---I don't have that issue.  There may have been 
a mention of him in DEFENDERS #78, but again I'm not positive, 
because I don't have that issue either.  Sorry.

			*	*	*

Re: An Omega question
Posted by Angelo Mammone on October 06, 2001 at 18:55:06:
In Reply to: Re: An Omega question
posted by BJ on October 03, 2001 at 17:06:50:

I have DEFENDERS #s 75 e 78.  James-Michael Starling doesn't appear 
in both numbers and he is only mentioned in them.

By

			*	*	*

Re: An Omega question
Posted by Scott Hutchins on May 04, 2002 at 01:54:57:
In Reply to: Re: An Omega question
posted by Russ Chappell on October 02, 2001 at 22:37:37:

He appeared in Defenders 76 & 77.  He apparently met his demise in 77.

			*	*	*
Thanks
Posted by Mike on October 08, 2001 at 23:30:06:

This is an awesome resource for me.  I play RPG's and I like to 
research characters before I use them.  This site has helped me to 
pinpoint appearances of even obscure characters (such as the locust) 
so that I can buy those issues at Mile High Comics.  Thank you for 
being such an exellent reference.

			*	*	*

Torches
Posted by mithandir on October 14, 2001 at 10:00:55:

I have recently gotten my hands on the Human Torch reprint book 
from the 70's and am wondering if anybody here could answer a 
couple questions about it for me.

Question 1: The book is divided in two.  The first story is always 
a reprint of one of the solo Johnny Storm stoeries from Strange 
Tales (Vol 1).  In fact, they are pretty clearly the stories from 
ST's 101-108.  Could anyone tell me the cover dates for the original 
Strange Tales issues?

Question 2: The second half of the book contains a reprint of a 
golden age original (android) Human Torch story.  While it's pretty 
easy for me to figure out where the Johnny Storm stories come from, 
my lack of Golden Age stuff makes it near impossible for me to know 
where these stories come from.  If anybody could tell me where these 
stories are from I would greatly appreciate it, as it would allow me 
to fit them into my own chronology.  The plots are: 

HT1: "Horror Hotel" (There's no Toro in one if that helps.)

HT2: "The Hyena Strikes"

HT3: "Reptile's Revenge" (This one is actually marked it's from 
Sub-Mariner (Comics, I assume) #23)

HT4: "The World's End"

HT5: "In Korea" (This one's from Human Torch #38, but if anybody 
knows what date that came out it would be appreciated, pretty 
obviously in the 50's somewhere.)

HT6: (This one's intitled but also from Human Torch #38)

HT7: "Fugitive at Large" (From Sub-Mariner #35)

HT8 "The Un-Human (From Marvel Super-Heroes #16 according to the 
book, but that doesn't make much sense)

If anyone could help me track down which issues these came from 
and the dates (roughly, this is Golden Age stuff) I would greatly 
appreciate it.)

--Mithrandir

			*	*	*

Re: Torches
Posted by Giant Ant on October 14, 2001 at 15:13:55:
In Reply to: Torches
posted by mithandir on October 14, 2001 at 10:00:55:

> I have recently gotten my hands on the Human Torch reprint book 
from the 70's and am wondering if anybody here could answer a couple 
questions about it for me.

I'll do what I can.  Most of my info comes from Arthur's Marvel 
Comics Reprints (http://www.math.ucla.edu/~alee/reprints.html).

> Question 1: The book is divided in two.  The first story is always 
a reprint of one of the solo Johnny Storm stoeries from Strange 
Tales (Vol 1).  In fact, they are pretty clearly the stories from 
ST's 101-108.  Could anyone tell me the cover dates for the original 
Strange Tales issues?

Human Torch 1 = Strange Tales 101 (oct 62)
    (-1 pg: 3; last panel of page 2 completely redrawn)
Human Torch 2 = Strange Tales 102 (nov 62)
Human Torch 3 = Strange Tales 103 (dec 62)
Human Torch 4 = Strange Tales 104 (jan 63)
Human Torch 5 = Strange Tales 105 (feb 63)
    (-1 pg: panel 5 of 12, panels 2-6 of 13)
Human Torch 6 = Strange Tales 106 (mar 63)
Human Torch 7 = Strange Tales 107 (apr 63)
Human Torch 8 = Strange Tales 108 (may 63)

> Question 2: The second half of the book contains a reprint of a 
golden age original (android) Human Torch story.  While it's pretty 
easy for me to figure out where the Johnny Storm stories come from, 
my lack of Golden Age stuff makes it near impossible for me to know 
where these stories come from.  If anybody could tell me where these 
stories are from I would greatly appreciate it, as it would allow me 
to fit them into my own chronology.  The plots are: 

> HT1: "Horror Hotel" (There's no Toro in one if that helps.)

The Human Torch #33 (11/1948)

> HT2: "The Hyena Strikes"

The Human Torch #30 (5/1948)

> HT3: "Reptile's Revenge" (This one is actually marked it's from 
Sub-Mariner (Comics, I assume) #23)

Yup, Sub-Mariner #23  (Summer 1947)

> HT4: "The World's End"

The Human Torch #38 (8/1954)

> HT5: "In Korea" (This one's from Human Torch #38, but if anybody 
knows what date that came out it would be appreciated, pretty 
obviously in the 50's somewhere.)

same as above, The Human Torch #38 (8/1954)

> HT6: (This one's intitled but also from Human Torch #38)

Yup, from the same one as the two above.  There are some parts 
missing, unfortunately...
panel 6 of pg 2, panels 5-7 of pg 3, panels 2,5 of pg 4, panels 
2, 3, 6 of pg 5)

> HT7: "Fugitive at Large" (From Sub-Mariner #35)

Sub-Mariner #35 (August 1954)

> HT8 "The Un-Human (From Marvel Super-Heroes #16 according to 
the book, but that doesn't make much sense)

It does make sense.  It's was a new story in Marvel Super-Heroes 16, 
and they reprinted it here.

Hope that helps
TT, GAMS member #34

			*	*	*

Chronology graph 2
Posted by Jimmy on October 14, 2001 at 15:45:24:

Hello

Last time I wrote:

"And then I feel I have to say that the real work is accomplished 
here at the MCP"

That's a strange way of putting it, isn't it?

Of course all the real work is accomplished here at the MCP. You're 
the best! Thank you for doing it. It made it possible for, and 
inspired, me to program the graph. The MCP really adds a dimension 
to Marvel-reading. I don't understand how I could read the comics 
before I knew about you.

I also wrote:

"If you're intrested I could lay out the program that makes it 
possible for you to create your own graphs."

I'll take the no-answering as a no. (The reason for me asking this 
is that if you're going to understand the program I'll have to 
write a help-document. I've probably made the program more 
comlicated than it need to bee...)

The problem with Microsofts Explorer is solved. The graph should 
now at least work with Explorer 4.0 and Netscape 4.5 and higher 
versions of the two browsers.

SKleefeld wrote:

"For Russ' benefit, Jimmy makes it abundantly clear that the info 
is pulled from the MCP and he links back to it. I don't see any 
legal difference between what he's doing and other webmasters who 
you've allowed to repeat your info."

So this means that I've got MCP:s permission?

Best regards
/Jimmy

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology graph 2
Posted by Russ Chappell on October 14, 2001 at 21:06:14:
In Reply to: Chronology graph 2
posted by Jimmy on October 14, 2001 at 15:45:24:

You do have our permission.

Russ

			*	*	*

Acts of Vengeance
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 15, 2001 at 01:36:39:
For Dr. Doom's chronology, you list Amazing Spider-Man #327 after 
Spectacular Spider-Man #159, when I believe the order should be 
reversed.  In the Amazing Spider-Man issue, Spider-Man develops 
the ability to fly which he already has in Spectacular Spider-Man.

Also, in both Doom and Loki's chronologies you list Punisher War 
Journal #12-13 before Punisher #28-29.  In Punisher War Journal 
#12, Doom refers to his conflict with Punisher in Punisher #29.  
With the Loki chronology, this is before Thor #410 which is when 
Loki recruits Doom.  Also Kingpin isn't recruited until Spectacular 
Spider-Man #158.

Furthermore, Avengers #311 and Captain America #365 must take place 
before Wolverine #19 as the Red Skull is a member of Loki's group 
in Wolverine #19 but does not join until Captain America #365 which 
follows from Avengers #311.

For Magneto's chronology, you have Avenger #313 and Avengers West 
Coast #55 before Web of Spider-Man #61 and Captain America #367 (also 
for the Red Skull for this issue).  I believe the Web of Spider-Man 
and Captain America issues should be before the Avengers issue 
because Avengers #313 leads to Thor #413 which leads into Avengers 
West Coast #55 which is the end of the Acts of Vengeance (except 
for the epilogues in Avengers Spotlight #29, Amazing Spider-Man 
#329, and Avengers Annual #19).  In Avengers Annual #19, it is 
revealed that the Red Skull in that issue was a robot, while the 
real Red Skull was captured by Magneto in Captain America #367.  
During this issue, the warp door from Loki is still working.  So 
this fight must be before Avengers West Coast #55.  Since this is 
the last we see of Magneto involved with Loki's other lackey's, this 
is a great place to end his involvement and replace the Red Skull.

Also Doom and Magneto do not agree on the placement of Wolverine 
#19, before or after Amazing Spider-Man #327 and Spectacular 
Spider-Man #159.  Nor the placement of Web of Spider-Man #60, 
before or after Captain America #366 and Avengers #312.

In the Loki chronology, Captain America #365 is listed before 
Avengers #311 which picks up immediately after Avengers #311.   
Both of these issues are listed after Thor #411, Punisher #28, and 
Thor #412.  In Thor #411, Eric Masterson refers to the events of 
Avengers #311 and Fantastic Four #334 (which occurs after Captain 
America #365).  Captain America #366 takes place during the Thor-
Juggernaut fight in Thor #411-412.  Currently, Captain America #366 
is located after that.  You also have Spectacular Spider-Man #160 
and Web of Spider-Man #61 after Avengers #313.  Due to the Wizard's 
capture in Avengers #313, these issues should be before Avengers 
#313.

In the Wizard's chronology, you have Amazing Spider-Man #327 before 
Captain America #365 and 366, when in Avnegers Annual #19/3, Captain 
America reports finishing his fight against the Controller (Captain 
America #366) before Spider-Man fought Magneto (Amazing Spider-Man 
#327).

			*	*	*

Re: Acts of Vengeance
Posted by Quas on October 15, 2001 at 12:07:52:
In Reply to: Acts of Vengeance
posted by Andy Holcombe on October 15, 2001 at 01:36:39:

Thanks for posting all these messages, Andy.  AoV used to be one of 
my favorite crossovers to struggle to chronologize.  It really 
forced me to make some implausible decisions to get everything to 
fit!

> For Dr. Doom's chronology, you list Amazing Spider-Man #327 after 
Spectacular Spider-Man #159, when I believe the order should be 
reversed. In the Amazing Spider-Man issue, Spider-Man develops the 
ability to fly which he already has in Spectacular Spider-Man.

I'd agree with you there.  The Spider-Man books from around WoS #1 
to until the fourth Spidey title as well as the various rush of 
mini-series in the early 90's had a pretty easy placement system.  
Similar to the Superman numbering system developed in the 90's, 
without the number.

Ordering usually went according to the week of the month the book 
shipped.  I don't remember which book shipped which week, but I 
can work on the same principle as the Superman books on a guess 
and just go with it

Week 2 of any given month:  Superman (definite) ~  Web of Spider-
Man (I think, it definitely shipped earlier in the month than 
Amazing Spidey)

Week 3 of any given month:  Adventures of Superman (definite)   
~   Amazing Spider-Man (I think, it definitely shipped earlier 
in the month than Spectacular Spider-Man)

Week 4 of any given month:  Action Comics starring Superman 
(definite)  ~   Spectacular Spider-Man (I think, it definitely 
shipped later in the month than Web of Spider-Man)

This system worked pretty well, at least until McFarlane came 
out with his "adjectiveless" Spidey title.

So the chronology for the Acts of Vengeance Spider-Man tie-ins

Amazing Spider-Man #326 [1]
Spectacular Spider-Man #158 [2] - Receives his cosmic powers
>Web of Spider-Man #59 [3]
Amazing Spider-Man #327 [4]
Spectacular Spider-Man #159 [5]
Web of Spider-Man #60 [6]
Amazing Spider-Man #328 [7]
Spectacular Spider-Man #160 [8]
Web of Spider-Man #61 [9]
Quasar #7 [10]   (Guest stars)
Amazing Spider-Man #329 [11]   Loses his powers

> Furthermore, Avengers #311 and Captain America #365 must take 
place before Wolverine #19 as the Red Skull is a member of Loki's 
group in Wolverine #19 but does not join until Captain America 
#365 which follows from Avengers #311.

X-Men chronology is definitely a stretch during this time period, 
considering the events that are currently happening in both Wolverine 
and Uncanny X-Men.  I'd always decided that Uncanny X-Men #256 took 
place very early on in the AoV saga, around the same time as Avengers 
Spotlight #26 and Avengers #311.  Wolverine #19-23 and Uncanny X-Men 
#251 - 253, where Wolverine took his solo participatiobn in the AoV 
and then went back to Australia and together with Jubilee got free of 
the Reavers.  Uncanny X-Men #257 took place at the last stages of 
Acts of Vengeance and #258 took place after the Mandarin had returned 
following Avengers West Coast #55.  This is the first proof that the 
stage for certain events in Acts of Vengeance began weeks before the 
actual event (such as the three I mentioned before, and also things 
like Amazing Spider-Man #326).

I'll comment on some of the other concerns you have in the respective 
post you bring it up in.

			*	*	*

New Warriors #1
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 15, 2001 at 02:16:34:

I New Warriors #1, Marvel Boy goes to the Avengers Headquarters to 
join the team.  This is clearly shown and explained to be at the 
5th Avenue site.  This headquarters was destroyed in Avengers #277.  
At the end of New Warriors #1, the Avengers (including Captain 
America, She-Hulk, and Quasar) show up to mop up after the fight 
with Terrax.  Quasar did not return to Earth and join the Avengers 
until after Avengers #303.  The New Warriors are later seen helping 
Thor fight the Juggernaut in Thor #411-412 which is sometime later.  
Did the Avengers just keep a building on the site of the old mansion 
and Captain America just happened to be there or what?  Just wondering 
if anyone had any thoughts on this.

			*	*	*

New Mutants in Atlantis Attacks and Acts of Vengeance
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 15, 2001 at 02:40:19:

I've been having problems getting Atlantis Attacks and Acts of 
Vengeance to work with each other in regards to the chronologies 
of all of the players.

The major problem was the New Mutants.  The return of the New Mutants 
from Asgard in New Mutants #87 leads into New Mutants Annual #5 which 
is in the middle of Atlantis Attacks.  Running concurrently is the 
storyline in which Rusty Collins and Skids Belvins are fighting 
Freedom Force, the Vulture, Freedom Force, and getting kidnapped by 
the Mutant Liberation Force.  The Fight with the Vulture is part of 
Loki's Acts of Vengeance (it's on his or one of his minions that the 
Tinkerer rebuild's the Vulture's wings).  Having Atlantis Attacks 
running simultaneously with the Acts of Vengeance caused all sorts 
of problems with the Avengers (meeting in a sunken Hydrobase in 
Avengers West Coast Annual #4) and Spider-Man (not using his Captain 
Universe powers against the Atlanteans in Web of Spider-Man Annual 
#5). I finally hit on the idea that the New Mutants storylines 
where not running concurrently as they were presented.  Rather 
the New Mutants returned from Asgard and fought the Atlanteans as 
we were shown.  After the Acts of Vengeance are going on (and Destiny 
and Stonewall are killed by the Reavers), the Rusty and Skids story 
picks up in New Mutants #83-87.  This chronology also works with 
the idea that Incredible Hulk #368 was Freedom Force's first real 
mission after Muir Island.

This reasoning can also be used with the Loki/Apocalypse meeting in 
X-Factor #49 and 50/2.

This does move X-Factor Annual #4 to someplace after Ship's landing 
in X-Factor #51.  Ship has not returned to Earth until after New 
Mutants Annual #5.

			*	*	*

Re: New Mutants in Atlantis Attacks and Acts of Vengeance
Posted by Quas on October 16, 2001 at 13:20:35:
In Reply to: New Mutants in Atlantis Attacks and Acts of Vengeance
posted by Andy Holcombe on October 15, 2001 at 02:40:19:

> I've been having problems getting Atlantis Attacks and Acts of 
Vengeance to work with each other in regards to the chronologies 
of all of the players.

Especially the mutants, right?   It's the same with X-Factor, X-Men, 
AND the New Mutants...

> The major problem was the New Mutants.  The return of the New 
Mutants from Asgard in New Mutants #87 leads into New Mutants 
Annual #5 which is in the middle of Atlantis Attacks.  Running 
concurrently is the storyline in which Rusty Collins and Skids 
Belvins are fighting Freedom Force, the Vulture, Freedom Force, 
and getting kidnapped by the Mutant Liberation Force.  The Fight 
with the Vulture is part of Loki's Acts of Vengeance (it's on his 
or one of his minions that the Tinkerer rebuild's the Vulture's 
wings).  Having Atlantis Attacks running simultaneously with the 
Acts of Vengeance caused all sorts of problems with the Avengers 
(meeting in a sunken Hydrobase in Avengers West Coast Annual #4) 
and Spider-Man (not using his Captain Universe powers against the 
Atlanteans in Web of Spider-Man Annual #5).  I finally hit on the 
idea that the New Mutants storylines where not running concurrently 
as they were presented.  Rather the New Mutants returned from Asgard 
and fought the Atlanteans as we were shown.  After the Acts of 
Vengeance are going on (and Destiny and Stonewall are killed by 
the Reavers), the Rusty and Skids story picks up in New Mutants 
#83-87.  This chronology also works with the idea that Incredible 
Hulk #368 was Freedom Force's first real mission after Muir 
Island.

New Mutants is actually pretty easy.  New Mutants Annual #5 takes 
place synchronically with Avengers Annual #18 (another flub -- a 
footnote in AA #18 suggested one of their suplots would be continued 
in NMA #5).  This is probably one reason why in years to come the 
crossovers between mutants and non-mutants were separated for the 
most part.  Onslaught was a pretty nice example of being able to 
separate the 2 groups but have them both be affected.  The early 
issues of New Mutants mentioning the first stirrings of Acts of 
Vengeance (in #83 as well as part of 84 take place around the same 
time as the 4 I mentioned in an earlier post).  During this time, 
the New Mutants are already returning to Asgard (you were correct 
in stretching out the events of AoV -- this needs to be done for 
all the mutants since they all seem to be doing some journeys, 
Psylocke & Wolverine, the New Mutants AND X-Factor).   New Mutants 
Annual #5 takes place as I said during Avengers Annual #18, and in 
between pages 13 and 22 of New Mutants #88 in the NM's own 
continuity.

> This reasoning can also be used with the Loki/Apocalypse meeting 
in X-Factor #49 and 50/2.

Yah, 49 (or at least the scene where he is viewing supervillians 
across the globe) can be stretched as far forward as while X-Factor 
is in space traveling back towards earth, following their near 
run-in with Professor X.  The Apocalypse/Loki confrontation in #50 
(and perhaps even Loki's appearance in Poccy's hq in #49) can be 
said to take place after X-Factor is on earth, despite anything in 
Po-ky's and Lo-ky's (that rhymes) conversation saying Cyclops hasn't 
returned to earth yet.  

> This does move X-Factor Annual #4 to someplace after Ship's landing 
in X-Factor #51.  Ship has not returned to Earth until after New 
Mutants Annual #5.

Yes, if you noticed there was a note in the beginning of X-Factor 
Annual #4 stating that they would show an upcoming issue of X-Factor 
that would have Jean pulled by a tractor beam and Beast grabbing 
onto her quickly, not having time to warn the other members of 
X-Factor.  Of course, this scene never appeared in an issue of 
X-Factor.  I would place it having happened shortly after Jean 
and Beast's appearances in issue #51 and New Mutants #88.  After 
just having dealt with the civil war of their lives, they may 
have expected to be able to take it easy for a while; thus their 
false sense of security.  Poor Jean -- she never seems to get a 
break...

			*	*	*

Re: New Mutants in Atlantis Attacks and Acts of Vengeance
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 20, 2001 at 21:23:47:
In Reply to: Re: New Mutants in Atlantis Attacks and Acts of Vengeance
posted by Quas on October 16, 2001 at 13:20:35:

> > I've been having problems getting Atlantis Attacks and Acts of 
Vengeance to work with each other in regards to the chronologies of 
all of the players.

> New Mutants is actually pretty easy.

I think you missunderstood my problem.  It was not placing the 
annuals in the chronology of their respective serieses (while they 
don't all have definate "put me here" signs, opportunities often 
present themselves), but rather working out the logistics of two 
line-wide crossovers in a manner that allowed everyone to be where 
they were supposed to be when they were supposed to be.  The 
individual serieses weren't much of a problem, just making them 
play nice with everyone else.  Anyone who ever thinks that running 
two of these crossovers during each other is fun or wants to do it 
again needs to be drug out in the street and horsewhipped.

			*	*	*

Re: New Mutants in Atlantis Attacks and Acts of Vengeance
Posted by Quas on October 20, 2001 at 21:52:37:
In Reply to: Re: New Mutants in Atlantis Attacks and Acts of Vengeance
posted by Andy Holcombe on October 20, 2001 at 21:23:47:

Actually I understood your problem fine and touched upon it in my 
post.  And as far as the mutant books go, putting the crossover 
bits somewhere in their own respective continuities is all that 
is called for.  They barely take any part in either crossover.  
That is where most of your confusion came from, isn't it?  That's 
what you said yourself in your post.  Perhaps you misunderstood 
your own problem.

But I do agree with you that there were problems with both crossovers, 
not because it's impossible (don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it 
easy), it's simply that the editors of some of the titles don't 
really respect the crossover much.  It's possible Claremont has 
some disdain for crossovers in general ever since Inferno made a 
mess of his plans for Madelyne Pryor, which is why none of his books 
even mentioned Atlantis Attacks at all.  Storm's appearance should 
have been a red flag for all involved in that storyline, and yet 
because Claremont didn't want to be a part of it (I wouldn't be 
surprised if he said he refused to write X-Men Annual #13), it was 
pretty much ignored by all the writers of every book.  This might 
explain why eventually Marvel divided into branches -- X, Avenger, 
etc.  and rarely was there any interbranch interaction.  If 
editors (and probably writers as well) were more cooperative, 
crossovers would be more fun and more mindful of continuity.  
Apparently, they don't have any plans to be.

			*	*	*

Tigra in Avengers Annual #18
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 15, 2001 at 11:27:36:

While John Bryne has gone on record saying that the apparent Tigra 
appearance in Avengers Annual #18 was an halucination (Avengers 
West Coast #56), I believe that her appearance is workable even 
with the prohibition of her and the orginal Human Torch ever meeting.  
The Torch and Tigra are never in the same place at the same time.  
At the begining of the issue the Torch is on the East Coast while 
Tigra is on the West Coast (Henry Pym thought that he had cured her, 
perhaps).  Tigra then misses the entire briefing on their mission 
against the Atlanteans (while Tigra does show up at the end of the 
briefing, we don't see the Torch who could have stepped out for 
coffee or something) and is on a different team from the Torch.  
After the battle, she reverts to her feral state and Pym shrinks 
her back for storage.

			*	*	*

Re: Tigra in Avengers Annual #18
Posted by ShadZ on October 15, 2001 at 13:15:15:
In Reply to: Tigra in Avengers Annual #18
posted by Andy Holcombe on October 15, 2001 at 11:27:36:

While that kind of works (it assumes a undocumented cure and 
relapse), I don't see a reason to even try to preserve Tigra's 
appearance in Avengers Annual #18.  After all, the author actually 
came "on camera" and admitted Tigra's appearance was a mistake. 
Not in a lettercolumn, but actually in a story!  

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Re: Tigra in Avengers Annual #18
Posted by Quas on October 16, 2001 at 13:12:51:
In Reply to: Re: Tigra in Avengers Annual #18
posted by ShadZ on October 15, 2001 at 13:15:15:

I agree with ShadZ, and this coming from someone who would 
nominally always try to make things in a story work.  This is 
one where it simply makes little sense to try.  At one point I 
was going to try to make it work by having Avengers Annual #18 
take place shortly after Avengers West Coast #50 (lead in 
directly by the other scene in Avengers West Coast #56, which 
would work because that would serve as a precursor for Iron 
Man -- who was at this point unfriendly with the Avengers due 
to his actions regarding Captain America a while ago -- to 
rejoin the West Coast team) and have the shrinking scene in 
the previous issue (AWC #49) stretch as far as between #50 & 51, 
possibly right after the West Coast team returned from helping 
the rest of the Avengers fight the Atlanteans in AA #18.  But 
that would mean ignoring Byrne's captioning the events of AWC 
#51 having taken place less than an hour after the Original 
Human Torch was restored to life.  Not to mention that AWC #51 
is pretty much a direct continuation of #50 with the Iron Man 
returning cliffhanger.  Like I said, it simply makes sense to 
accept John Byrne's explanation and apology and be done with it.  
I'm all in favor of blaming everything on John Byrne in each and 
any case possible.

			*	*	*

X-Factor and Excalibur in Marvel Age Annual #4
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 16, 2001 at 13:35:20:

X-Factor (Ship, Cyclops, Marvel Girl, an unfurred Beast, and a 
belted Iceman) and Excalibur (Shadowcat, Nightcrawler, Captain 
Britain, and Phoenix) appear in the Wolverine story in Marvel 
Age Annual #4 and I was wondering when this story takes place 
realative to them.

			*	*	*

Marvel Age Annual #4
Posted by M on October 17, 2001 at 08:22:32:
In Reply to: X-Factor and Excalibur in Marvel Age Annual #4
posted by Andy Holcombe on October 16, 2001 at 13:35:20:

I've posted two messages about this annual, once in July and again 
in September. I haven't ever received a response; 

"In Marvel Age Annual #4 there is a 5 page Speedball story that is 
not re-printed or told elsewhere. This story's publication date 
precedes Amazing Spider-Man Annual #22 and Speedball #1. The story 
itself takes place somewhere during the Speedball series, I'm sure. 

Is this a canonical story? If so, isn't this then, the true first 
appearance of Speedball? Is there a hard rule for actual appearances 
in Marvel Age and the Marvel Age annuals?"

In his "Welcome/Readme" message at the very start of the current 
message board, Russ said if something goes without challenge for 
a month or so, the change would be made... Does that mean that the 
stories in Marvel Age Annual #4 are continuity, then?

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Age Annual #4
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 17, 2001 at 08:54:34:
In Reply to: Marvel Age Annual #4
posted by M on October 17, 2001 at 08:22:44:

I don't have the Speedball series, so I can't comment on it, but 
the Wolverine story in Marvel Age Annual is already listed in 
Wolverine and the New Mutants chronologies.  As it stands, I'm 
placing it between Excalibur: The Sword is drawn and issue #1 of 
the regular series for Excalibur and between issues #28 and 29 
for X-Factor.

I suggest getting this annual, the Speedball series, and the 
Amazing Spider-Man Annual and provide your own rationale for the 
inclusion of this story (or not, if that's the case) and where it 
should go.

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Age Annual #4
Posted by Russ Chappell on October 18, 2001 at 21:53:33:
In Reply to: Marvel Age Annual #4
posted by M on October 17, 2001 at 08:22:32:

> Does that mean that the stories in Marvel Age Annual #4 are 
continuity, then?  

No, that would be jumping to a conclusion. It *would* be fair to 
say that the denizens of the Posting Board believe that the 
*Speedball* story is in continuity, though. Where do you contend 
the story should be placed?

			*	*	*

Fantastic Four: Fathers and Sons
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 16, 2001 at 14:03:36:

I was just looking through my copy of Marvel Age Annual #4 and 
saw a blurb for Fantastic Four: Fathers and Sons graphic novel 
by Danny Fingeroth and Mark Bright.  Does anyone know what happened 
to this?  I'm also curious about the proposed Colossus and Longshot 
graphic novels.  Thanks for anyone's help.

			*	*	*

Colossus
Posted by Quas on October 17, 2001 at 22:41:16:
In Reply to: Fantastic Four: Fathers and Sons
posted by Andy Holcombe on October 16, 2001 at 14:03:36:

Don't know 'bout FF: F&S or Longshot off hand, but whatever plans 
and pages were prepared for Colossus were eventually released as a 
multi-part series with 8 pages were installment in the anthology 
Marvel Comics Presents. I think it started with #10 and ended in #17.

			*	*	*

Re: Colossus
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 18, 2001 at 00:25:05:
In Reply to: Colossus
posted by Quas on October 17, 2001 at 22:41:16:

I thought that the graphic novel was to be a sequel to the Marvel 
Comics Presents serial

			*	*	*

Re: Colossus
Posted by Quas on October 19, 2001 at 14:01:57:
In Reply to: Re: Colossus
posted by Andy Holcombe on October 18, 2001 at 00:25:05:

Does it say this somewhere?

			*	*	*

Re: Colossus
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 20, 2001 at 21:27:41:
In Reply to: Re: Colossus
posted by Quas on October 19, 2001 at 14:01:57:

In the write-up for Marvel Comics Presents in MArvel Age Annual #4, 
they say "The Colossus story will lead in somewhat to a Colossus 
graphic novel."

			*	*	*

Re: Fantastic Four: Fathers and Sons
Posted by SKleefeld on October 24, 2001 at 12:41:42:
In Reply to: Fantastic Four: Fathers and Sons
posted by Andy Holcombe on October 16, 2001 at 14:03:36:

> I was just looking through my copy of Marvel Age Annual #4 and saw 
a blurb for Fantastic Four: Fathers and Sons graphic novel by Danny 
Fingeroth and Mark Bright.  Does anyone know what happened to this?  
I'm also curious about the proposed Colossus and Longshot graphic 
novels.  Thanks for anyone's help.

I don't know for certain, but John Byrne did a storyline in the 
main FF book whose final chapter was entitled "Fathers and Others." 
The story ran from #271 - 273. I don't know if there was any 
relation in any way, but it wouldn't be the first time a story got 
adapted from one venue to another.

That's something I'd definitely be interested in finding out more 
about and I will be looking into it.

- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Longshot Graphic Novel
Posted by Bernard Assaf on December 03, 2001 at 22:41:10:
In Reply to: Fantastic Four: Fathers and Sons
posted by Andy Holcombe on October 16, 2001 at 14:03:36:

> I'm also curious about the proposed Colossus and Longshot graphic 
novels.  Thanks for anyone's help.

DOOD--I've been wondering about that Longshot graphic novel for 
YEARS.  Here's what I've dug up on the subject...

In the X-Mail for The Uncanny X-Men #220, a question about Art Adams 
earned this response:

"Art Adams has returned to his work on the LONGSHOT Graphic Novel. 
Written by X-Men editor, Ann Nocenti, the entire 80 page story, 
picking up where the LONGSHOT Limited Series left off--chronicles 
the rebellion of his universe, the fate of Mojo and Spiral and it's 
all painted by Art in full color."

Then, in the Bullpen Bulletins for The Uncanny X-Men #227, a Pro 
File on Ann Nocenti reveals the following:

"Marvel freelance credits (present): DAREDEVIL, SPIDER-MAN, INHUMANS 
Graphic Novel, the new LONGSHOT Mini-Series, and the SOMEPLACE 
STRANGE Graphic Novel."

I've tried unsuccessfully to track down anything beyond this, but 
I presume the project was eventually scrapped.  :(

Anyone have a contact e-mail for Ann Nocenti so I can ask her 
myself?

Bernard Assaf

			*	*	*

Re: Fantastic Four: Fathers and Sons
Posted by Danny Fingeroth on December 05, 2001 at 16:18:08:
In Reply to: Fantastic Four: Fathers and Sons
posted by Andy Holcombe on October 16, 2001 at 14:03:36:

> I was just looking through my copy of Marvel Age Annual #4 and 
saw a blurb for Fantastic Four: Fathers and Sons graphic novel by 
Danny Fingeroth and Mark Bright.  Does anyone know what happened 
to this?  I'm also curious about the proposed Colossus and Longshot 
graphic novels.  Thanks for anyone's help.

The Fathers and Sons graphic novel is completely scripted (by me) 
and mostly, if not all, penciled & inked (by Al Milgrom; Bright 
did 15 pages or so, then dropped out of the project.  I'm pretty 
sure Al redid those 15 for style consistency.)  I'd love to see 
it come out, though with the material being about 14 years old, 
it's not exactly in line with current continuity.  It's a fun read, 
with all-out action and all-teary human interest.  Feel free to 
start a grass roots movement to find whatever drawer it's in at 
Marvel and have them print it.  --Danny Fingeroth

			*	*	*

Re: Fantastic Four: Fathers and Sons
Posted by Andy Holcombe on December 18, 2001 at 01:29:13:
In Reply to: Re: Fantastic Four: Fathers and Sons
posted by Danny Fingeroth on December 05, 2001 at 16:18:08:

Thanks for the update, and best of luck on your future endeavours, 
both in and out of comics.

			*	*	*

Wolverine and Hulk
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 16, 2001 at 15:10:22:

The Hulk guest stars in Wolverine #7 and 8.  In Wolverine's 
chronology, this is listed as before Uncanny X-Men Annual #12 
which is chapter seven of the Evolutionary War.  In the Hulk's 
chronology, this is set after Hulk #355 which is definately after 
Avengers Annual #17 which is chapter 11 and the conclusion of the 
Evolutionary War (Incredible Hulk #350 refers to the events of 
that issue).  Wolverine #4-8 do not seem to be tied to the X-Men 
in any way and could easily be set after the annual.

			*	*	*

Avengers in Fantastic Four #316
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 17, 2001 at 09:36:21:

Due to the various events, including the Evolutionary War, I think 
that the behind the scenes mention for the Avengers in Fantastic 
Four #316 should be before X-Factor #32.

X-Factor #32 is definately after Avengers #294 based on comments 
about the Leviathan/Mariana battle.  The Wolverine story in Marvel 
Age Annual #4 occurs before the Beast is mutated by Infecta in 
X-Factor #31 and after Uncanny X-Men Annual #12 (which is after 
Fantastic Four Annual #21).  X-Factor Annual #3 occurs before 
Fantastic Four Annual #21 and between X-Factor #27 and 28.  
X-Factor #33 must take place before Avengers Annual #17 which is 
after Avengers #298.

Avengers #294
Fantastic Four #316-317
West Coast Avengers #35-37
X-Factor Annual #3
Punisher Annual #2
New Mutants Annual #4
Silver Surfer Annual #1
Amazing Spider-Man Annual #22
Amazing Spider-Man #304-309
Fantastic Four Annual #21
Uncanny X-Men Annual #12
Web of Spider-Man Annual #4
West Coast Avengers Annual #3
Spectecular Spider-Man #143
X-Factor #28
Uncanny X-Men #231
Marvel Comics Presents #1-10 (Wolverine)
Uncanny X-Men #232-234
Wolveine #1-3
Marvel Age Annual #4 (Wolverine)
X-Factor #29-32
Avengers #295-297
X-Factor #33
Web of Spider-Man #44
Incredible Hulk #349
Spectacular Spider-Man Annual #8
Fantastic Four #318-320
Incredible Hulk #350
Avengers #298
Avengers Annual #17

			*	*	*

Re: Avengers in Fantastic Four #316
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 20, 2001 at 21:33:17:
In Reply to: Avengers in Fantastic Four #316
posted by Andy Holcombe on October 17, 2001 at 09:36:21:

The Wolverine story in Marvel Age Annual #4 <snip> after Uncanny 
X-Men Annual #12

As those of us who can read know, Uncanny X-Men #231, Marvel 
Comics Presents #1-10 (Wolverine), Uncanny X-Men #232-234, 
Wolveine #1-3, Marvel Age Annual #4 (Wolverine) are before Uncanny 
X-Men Annual #12 not as I had presented earlier.

			*	*	*

Firestar
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 17, 2001 at 12:27:49:

In a previous post, I mentioned that the Firestar series in Marvel 
Comics presents may take place after New Warriors #1.  I was in 
error.  After further review, the mention of the New Warriors appears 
to be referring to future events.  This should make it easier to work 
with based on Spiral's membership in Freedom Force.

			*	*	*

Beast in Marvel Comics Presents #85-92
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 21, 2001 at 20:38:01:

The Beast story in marvel Comics Presents #85-92 needs to be placed 
before Ship becomes a scyscraper in X-Factor #51 and X-Factor goes 
into space in X-Factor #43.  In Marvel Comics Presents #85, the 
mailman is shown rafting out to a floating Ship.  I believe the 
story takes place before X-Factor #41, since Hank needs several 
days in Belgium.

			*	*	*

Key section doubts
Posted by Angelo Mammone on October 27, 2001 at 14:43:19:

Excuse me, in the key section there is a title I never heard of: 
"Sure are a lotta books".

Please someone tell me something about this book.

In the "title by key title" section there is "WOLVERINE/GAMVIT: 
VICTIMS" it should be "GAMBIT".

I wish to thank Russ for his magnificent site!

			*	*	*

Re: Key section doubts
Posted by Scott on November 08, 2001 at 12:38:29:
In Reply to: Key section doubts
posted by Angelo Mammone on October 27, 2001 at 14:43:19:

> Excuse me, in the key section there is a title I never heard of: 
"Sure are a lotta books".

This has got to be a joke.  It's neither at Lone Star or Mile High.

			*	*	*

Re: Key section doubts
Posted by I hate to be critical, but... on November 08, 2001 at 15:45:49
In Reply to: Re: Key section doubts
posted by Scott on November 08, 2001 at 12:38:29:

Anyone who doesn't get that this is a joke fits the truest definition 
of the often offensive but in this case so apt phrase "comic book 
dork".

This is of course allowing for the possibility that the original 
poster was taking the in-joke to the next level, making a joke of 
the joke itself.  I certainly hope this is the case.

			*	*	*

Re: Key section doubts
Posted by Russ Chappell on November 08, 2001 at 17:47:01:
In Reply to: Re: Key section doubts
posted by I hate to be critical, but... 
on November 08, 2001 at 15:45:49:

You can find this in the list of Titles. There's another one in the 
list of Keys, and they've been there since the beginning. It's a 
wink and a nudge to those people who actually sit there and read 
the key, as opposed to using the key as a resource, to look up 
abbreviations.

			*	*	*

Killing off a character
Posted by Tommy on October 28, 2001 at 11:09:37:

This might be a stupid question. If you are writing a comic thru 
Marvel and wanted to kill off a certain villian, How do you go about 
doing that? I mean do you have to go thru some certain channels? 
Even if you wanted to use  a certain villian how do you go about 
that?

Thank you!

			*	*	*

Re: Killing off a character
Posted by Russ Chappell on October 29, 2001 at 08:15:09:
In Reply to: Killing off a character
posted by Tommy on October 28, 2001 at 11:09:37:

It's an excellent question, but this is probably the wrong place. 
You might try the newsgroup rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe, or 
Alvaro's site at 

http://www.comicboards.com

			*	*	*

Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. (vol. 2) #26
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 28, 2001 at 23:39:35:

Captain America, Wolverine, She-Hulk, Human Torch, and Nick Fury's 
chronologies lists Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. (vol. 2) #26 
before Avengers (vol 1.) #332, while Mr. Fantastic's list's it after 
Avengers (vol 1.) #333.

Also, Thor's chronology lists this issue between Thor (vol. 1) #430 
and #431, while Thunderstrike and Captain America's shows the issue 
between #433 and #434.  The Thor shown in the comic appears to be 
unbearded and wearing Thor's traditional costume.
