Demolisher correction?
Posted by Brian Cook on February 03, 2002 at 22:36:49:

The listing for DEMOLISHER is linked to Deathlok III (Michael 
Collins), but reading the issues that he appeared in (Daredevil 
335-337), he refers to himself as Luther Manning (Deathlok I) on 
several occasions.

			*	*	*

Re: Demolisher correction?
Posted by Sean Curtin on February 22, 2002 at 14:39:36:
In Reply to: Demolisher correction?
posted by Brian Cook on February 03, 2002 at 22:36:49:

Given that the original Deathlok lived in an alternate timeline, I 
think that would have to have been an error on the part of the writer 
of that issue.  (Unless there actually *was* a logical reason for it 
to be Deathlok I.)

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: Deathlok corrections
Posted by Don Campbell on March 04, 2002 at 10:56:39:
In Reply to: Re: Demolisher correction?
posted by Sean Curtin on February 22, 2002 at 14:39:36:

There are several errors in the listings for the various Deathloks.  
This may be because some of the vital issues fall within a gap.

First, there have been at least five Deathloks, not four.  Deathloks 
I, II and III are who they are supposed to be (Colonel Luther Manning, 
Colonel John Kelly, Michael Collins) but there was another Deathlok 
who appeared in the last four issues of the series featuring Deathlok 
III, the series that the project lists as DLOK2.  The Deathlok that 
first appeared in UX 371 should therefore be renumbered to Deathlok V.

Second, the listing for the original Deathlok is incomplete but mostly 
accurate.  The only error that I noticed was the listing for M/TIO 
53-54.  When those issues were published, the Deathlok who appeared 
in them and died was supposed to be the real one but later stories 
revealed that "he" was actually a fully-robotic version of the cyborg.  
Therefore, a new listing should be added for that character, "Deathlok 
Robot."  As for the issues that are missing from this listing, they 
should include the storyline in DLOK2 29 & 31-34 (which ended with 
him using Godwulf's time gauntlet to leave his ruined future timeline)
as well as his next appearance (as the Demolisher) in Daredevil 335-337.
So yes, it WAS the ORIGINAL Deathlok in those Daredevil issues.

Third, the listing for Deathlok II is sadly lacking.  In DLOK2 19 it 
was revealed that John Kelly's consciousness still existed within the 
Deathlok cyborg body now inhabited by Michael Collins.  Upon 
discovering this, Collins chose to download Kelly's mind/memories into 
the body of a Cyber-Warrior that Ryker had built.  In this new body, 
Kelly called himself Siege and went on to appear in various titles, 
including later issues of DLOK2 and SILVER SABLE before appearing in 
Daredevil 330, which is the ONLY appearance that the Siege/John Kelly 
listing has in it.  I'm not sure why all his other appearances are 
missing, unless they all occurred within a gap.

Fourth, Deathlok III/Michael Collins never became the Demolisher who 
appeared in Daredevil 335-337, so any info that says otherwise is 
wrong and should be removed.

Fifth, the last issues of the DLOK2 series were a storyline featuring 
all three previous Deathloks, plus a new one.  This Deathlok was the 
Colonel Luther Manning of the mainstream Marvel timeline who was 
morphed into a Deathlok cyborg as part of a scheme by a time-
travelling villain named Timestream.  It should be noted that this 
Manning and the Deathlok I Manning were BOTH originally the same 
person since the divergence which split their respective timelines 
took place when he was an adult.  Deathlok IV/Colonel Luther Manning 
appeared in DLOK2 25-29 and 31-34.

Sixth, since the previous Deathlok IV should be bumped up to Deathlok 
V, his listing should begin with UX 371, X 91 and X '99.  The character 
then went on to appear in the eleven issues of the most recent Deathlok 
series, which should be listed as DLOK3, right?

Hope this is helpful.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

CAPTAIN BRITAIN #31-39 - archived!
Posted by Jeph! on February 08, 2002 at 16:21:37:

Wrapping up the final nine issues of Marvel UK Ltd.'s 1976-77 "Captain 
Britain" series  and I've trimmed the synopses down to the bare 
minimum for reasons of space and boredom.  Feel free to ask for any 
more information you might want.

----

Captain Britain #31  May 11, 1977  (7 pages, B&W)

Characters:
Chief Inspector Dai Thomas
Captain Britain
Lord Hawk  (all three last in CB #30)
James "Jamie" Braddock, Jr.
Elisabeth "Betsy" Braddock (Psylocke)  (both last in CB #21)
Dr. Neil MacKenzie, Brian's landlord (off-panel)  (last in CB #5)
Jacko Tanner  (last in CB #19)

Synopsis:  Captain Britain's brother tries to help CB during his 
battle with Lord Hawk, forcing CB to subdue him for his own safety.  
Lord Hawk attacks Thames University, and CB's longtime rival Jacko 
Tanner distracts him long enough for Lord Hawk's mechanical bird to 
grab CB and carry him off in its talons

Notes:  Brian's landlord, Dr. MacKenzie, appears this issue only in 
the form of word balloons from behind a closed door.  As you can hear 
his voice, I think this counts as a full appearance rather than a 
BTS.

Back-up stories:  (all B&W reprints, with new splash pages)
Fantastic Four (10 pages)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (5 pages)
Marvel Team-Up (Spider-Man and the Inhumans  7 pages)

----

Captain Britain #32  May 18, 1977  (7 pages, B&W)

Characters:
Captain Britain
Lord Hawk
Dai Thomas
STRIKE Commander Lance Hunter  (last in CB #27)
Jacko Tanner

Synopsis:  Captain Britain manages to free himself of the bird's 
grasp and take control of it, but he lands hard, knocking himself 
out.  As Scotland Yard arrests Lord Hawk, Lance Hunter of STRIKE 
steps in to claim custody of CB

Back-up stories:  (all B&W reprints)
Fantastic Four (7 pages)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (8 pages)
Marvel Team-Up (Spider-Man and the Inhumans  6 pages, with a new 
splash page)

----<p>Captain Britain #33  May 25, 1977  (7 pages, B&W)

Characters:
Captain Britain
Lance Hunter
Merlin
Roma  (both last in CB #2)

Characters in flashback:
Lance Hunter
Lord Hawk
Captain Britain
Dai Thomas
Jacko Tanner

Synopsis:  Captain Britain awakens in the STRIKE medical centre, 
only to collapse again.  It appears to him that he is suddenly in 
a strange wasteland, being attacked by a monster  but his body 
remains in STRIKE HQ.  Meanwhile, Merlin and Roma watch his battle

Notes:  The flashback in this issue covers the gap between CB #32 
and 33, tying up the Lord Hawk plotline and explaining how CB came 
to be at STRIKE HQ.  Very straightforward.

Back-up stories:  (all B&W reprints)
Fantastic Four (7 pages, with a new splash page)
Marvel Team-Up (Spider-Man and the Werewolf  7 pages)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (7 pages)

----

Captain Britain #34  June 1, 1977  (7 pages, B&W)

Characters:
Captain Britain
Lance Hunter
Merlin
Roma
Betsy Braddock
Jamie Braddock

Characters in flashback 1:
Captain Britain
Jamie Braddock

Characters in flashback 2:
King Arthur Pendragon  (last in IM 150?)

Synopsis:  Captain Britain realizes that he is fighting an illusion, 
and Merlin steps in, explaining that CB's mind has been separated 
from his body, and brought to this plane to speak with him.  He 
begins to tell CB of his origins

Notes:  Flashback #1 in this issue deals with how Jamie got untied 
from the ropes CB left him in back in issue #31, and takes place 
between pages 5 and 6 of that issue.  (This flashback is currently 
NOT included in the already-posted information on CB's Marvel UK 
chronology, much like the multiple flashbacks in CB 28 in my last 
write-up.)

Also, flashback #2 is the beginning of Merlin's tale of his time 
with King Arthur, and the only recognizable figure in it is Arthur 
himself.  The next issue makes clear that the flashback takes place 
at the end of Merlin's time with Arthur, which means that it has to 
take place sometime after A@20/2-FB, where Merlin and Arthur appear 
together.  I have arbitrarily placed it after IM 150, at the very 
end of Arthur's chronology.

Finally, it is worth noting that this issue features the first 
appearance of Betsy Braddock's psychic powers, as she senses her 
brother's pain.  Betsy, of course, would later go on to become 
Psylocke, of the X-Men.

Back-up stories:  (all B&W reprints with new splash pages)
Fantastic Four (8 pages)
Marvel Team-Up (Spider-Man and the Inhumans  9 pages)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (5 pages)

----

Captain Britain #35  June 8, 1977  (7 pages, B&W)

Characters:
Merlin
Captain Britain
Lance Hunter
Dai Thomas
Roma

Characters in flashback:
Arthur Pendragon
Merlin
Synopsis:  Merlin tells Captain Britain his origin:  he was a space 
traveller who came to Earth in King Arthur's time and served as his 
magician, but left after a time  leaving behind a test, to find the 
one worthy of restoring the glory of Camelot.  That person, Merlin 
says, was CB himself  and so he transforms CB's staff into a 
worthier weapon  the Star Sceptre.

Notes:  As previously stated, this flashback details Merlin's exit 
from Arthur's court and the test he left behind.  I have placed it 
after their mutual appearance in A@20/2-FB, and, as I said, after 
IM 150 in Arthur's.  I have also placed it after IM 209-FB and FF 
5-BTS ~ DAZZ 3-FB, because this flashback is implied to have taken 
place just before Merlin left earth, and the Dazzler FB, at least, 
takes place on earth.

Back-up stories:  (all B&W reprints)
Fantastic Four (10 pages)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (7 pages)
Marvel Team-Up (Spider-Man and the Werewolf  5 pages, with a new 
splash page)

----

Captain Britain #36  June 15, 1977  (7 pages, B&W)

Characters:
Captain Britain
Merlin
Roma
Nykonn  (first appearance)

Synopsis:  Merlin shows Captain Britain how the Star Sceptre allows 
him to fly  but the heroes are attacked by Nykonn, an evil magician 
and old enemy of Merlin's.  They defeat him, but the battle leaves 
Merlin's powers drained, and unable to return CB's mind to its body 
back on earth

Back-up stories:  (all B&W reprints)
Fantastic Four (11 pages, with a new splash page)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (4 pages)
Marvel Team-Up (Spider-Man and Captain America  7 pages)

----

Captain Britain #37  June 22, 1977

Characters:
Captain Britain
Roma
Merlin
Lance Hunter
Queen Elizabeth II  (first appearance?)
The Manipulator  (first appearance, see notes)
Jacko Tanner
Des, a lorry driver
Alf, a lorry driver
The Highwayman  (first appearance)

Synopsis:  Captain Britain, through an effort of will, manages to 
transport his mind back into his body  and thereby passes Merlin's 
final test.  Back on earth, a sinister villain called the Manipulator 
plans evil against Queen Elizabeth II's Silver Jubilee, and a 
motorcycle brigand called the Highwayman destroys a lorry.  Brian 
Braddock and Jacko Tanner, on their way to visit Courtney Ross in 
the hospital, come across the wreckage and chase the Highwayman, but 
he causes them to crash their car

Notes:  As far as I can tell from the MCP, this will be Queen 
Elizabeth's first Marvel Comics appearance.  I looked under "Queen", 
"Elizabeth", and "Windsor", and I couldn't find an entry for her  if 
she is listed under another name, please let me know.

Also, my ignorance about 1977 British royalty extends  in this issue 
and the next two, the Queen appears to have a male companion  he 
refers to her as "dear" in issue #39 ["get behind me, dear  
quickly!"], and the two are referred to as the Royal Family in this 
issue.  It wouldn't be Prince Charles, would it?  Can anyone help me 
out as to the identity of this man?  (Paul O'Brien, I'm looking at 
you)

Also, there are currently two Manipulators on the MCP, and while 
there is a slim chance that this character could be the same as one 
of them, I tend to doubt it.  (Currently, by the way, your 
Manipulator II entry is mis-alphebetized, and appears right after 
Janice Manning.)  In any case, the Manipulator introduced in this 
issue predates the first Manipulator on the MCP by eighteen months 
or so (from Avengers #178, December 1978).  Therefore, the 
Manipulators on the MCP should be bumped up to #s 2 and 3, 
respectively.

Back-up stories:  (all B&W reprints)
Fantastic Four (7 pages)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (9 pages)
Marvel Team-Up (Spider-Man and Captain America  7 pages, with a new 
splash page)

----

Captain Britain #38  June 29, 1977  (7 pages, B&W)

Characters:
Captain Britain
Jacko Tanner
The Highwayman
The Manipulator
Dai Thomas
Queen Elizabeth II

Captain Britain recovers from the car crash and confronts the 
Highwayman, but in his dazed state he is beaten and captured.  CB 
awakes strapped into the Manipulator's brainwashing machine, and 
the next day, is forced to attack the Queen herself 

Back-up stories:  (all B&W reprints)
Fantastic Four (8 pages, with a new splash page)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (8 pages)
Marvel Team-Up (Spider-Man and Captain America  8 pages, with a 
new splash page)

----

Captain Britain #39  July 6, 1977  (7 pages, B&W)  FINAL ISSUE

Characters:
Captain Britain
Queen Elizabeth II
Dai Thomas
The Manipulator
The Highwayman
Jamie Braddock
Betsy Braddock

Synopsis:  The brainwashed Captain Britain is driven off by the 
Highwayman, who is rewarded with a tour of the palace.  CB comes to 
his senses and escapes, but is now a fugitive.  Meanwhile, the 
Highwayman replaces the Queen's ring with a hypnotic replacement, 
and the next day the Queen, under the Manipulator's power, orders 
the Royal Navy to conquer the African nation of Umbazi

Notes:  This is the final issue of the "Captain Britain" series, but 
the strip continues as a backup in Marvel UK's "Super Spider-Man".  
I'll be doing write-ups for issues #231-247 next.

Back-up stories:  (all B&W reprints with new splash pages)
Fantastic Four (7 pages)
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD (13 pages)

----

And, as usual, here's my MCP-style roundup of all the information 
presented above.  New entries into a pre-existing character's listing 
are marked with a *star; new characters that do not yet HAVE a 
listing are marked with two **stars.  In this roundup I have treated 
the all information in my previous write-up (CB #21-30) to be 
"posted", with the logic that by the time you get around to 
incorporating this, you'll have almost certainly already included 
that prior write-up into the MCP.

Enjoy!
	-Jeph

BRADDOCK, JAMES JR. "JAMIE"

CB 21
*CB 31
*CB 34-FB
*CB 34
*CB 39
XCAL@2-FB


CAPTAIN BRITAIN / BRIAN BRADDOCK

CB 30
CB 31
*CB 34-FB
CB 31
CB 32
CB 33-FB
CB 33
CB 34
CB 35
CB 36
CB 37
CB 38
CB 39
SSM&CB 231/2


** THE HIGHWAYMAN
*CB 37
*CB 38
*CB 39

HUNTER, LANCE

CB 27
*CB 32
*CB 33-FB
*CB 33
*CB 34
*CB 35
*CB 37

LORD HAWK / PROF. SCOTT

CB 30
*CB 31
*CB 32
*CB 33

MACKENZIE, NEIL
CB 5
*CB 31

**THE MANIPULATOR
*CB 37
*CB 38
*CB 39

MERLIN

FF 5-BTS ~ DAZZ 3-FB
*CB 35-FB
ST 134

CB 2
*CB 33
*CB 34
*CB 35
*CB 36
*CB 37
XCAL:P


**NYKONN
*CB 36

PENDRAGON, ARTHUR

IM 150
*CB 34-FB
*CB 35-FB

PSYLOCKE / ELISABETH "BETSY" BRADDOCK

CB 21
*CB 31
*CB 34
*CB 39
XX 3-FB


ROMA

CB 2
*CB 33
*CB 34
*CB 35
*CB 36
*CB 37
CB2 14


TANNER, JACKO

CB 19
*CB 31
*CB 32
*CB 33-FB
*CB 37
*CB 38

THOMAS, DAI

CB 30
*CB 31
*CB 32
*CB 33-FB
*CB 35
*CB 38
*CB 39
XCAL 1
>

**WINDSOR, ELIZABETH II
*CB 37
*CB 38
*CB 39

----

			*	*	*

Re: CAPTAIN BRITAIN #31-39 - archived!
Posted by Paul O'Brien on February 09, 2002 at 10:20:28:
In Reply to: CAPTAIN BRITAIN #31-39 - archived!
posted by Jeph! on February 08, 2002 at 16:21:37:

<<Also, my ignorance about 1977 British royalty extends  in this 
issue and the next two, the Queen appears to have a male companion  
he refers to her as "dear" in issue #39 ["get behind me, dear  
quickly!"], and the two are referred to as the Royal Family in this 
issue. It wouldn't be Prince Charles, would it? Can anyone help me 
out as to the identity of this man? (Paul O'Brien, I'm looking at 
you)>>

If they appear to be the same age, then it's presumably meant to be 
her husband Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh.  If he's a 
generation younger, it's probably Prince Charles.

			*	*	*

Re: CAPTAIN BRITAIN #31-39 - archived!
Posted by Jeph! on February 09, 2002 at 14:25:32:
In Reply to: Re: CAPTAIN BRITAIN #31-39 - archived!
posted by Paul O'Brien on February 09, 2002 at 10:20:28:

They do appear about the same age, and this man is balding -- it's 
got to be Prince Philip then.  Charles would have been, what, 28 
in 1977?

Now, how would one go about putting British royalty into the MCP, 
people that routinely don't use their last names?  Should we put 
them in under their title, like "CAPTAIN America": "QUEEN Elizabeth"?  
Or should we put them in by last name, as I did: "WINDSOR, Elizabeth 
II"?  After all, King Arthur hinself is in there under "Pendragon, 
Arthur"...

What IS Prince Philip's last name?  Mountbatten?

Either way, an addendum to my writeup:

**PRINCE PHILIP, however we want to list him, appeared in:
*CB 37
*CB 38
*CB 39

Thanks, Paul.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: CAPTAIN BRITAIN #31-39 - archived!
Posted by Paul O'Brien on February 10, 2002 at 10:40:09:
In Reply to: Re: CAPTAIN BRITAIN #31-39 - archived!
posted by Jeph! on February 09, 2002 at 14:25:32:

> What IS Prince Philip's last name?  Mountbatten?

The Royal Family's name is Windsor.  (It used to be something 
Germanic, but they changed it during World War I.)  But nobody uses 
the surname.

			*	*	*

Re: CAPTAIN BRITAIN #31-39 - archived!
Posted by DCW3 on February 10, 2002 at 15:04:42:
In Reply to: Re: CAPTAIN BRITAIN #31-39 - archived!
posted by Paul O'Brien on February 10, 2002 at 10:40:09:

Didn't Elizabeth change the family's surname (not the House name) 
to Mountbatten-Windsor shortly before Charles was born? (But I don't 
think this had any bearing on the Queen or Philip, and they should 
probably be listed without any surname.)

			*	*	*

Re: CAPTAIN BRITAIN #31-39 - archived!
Posted by Paul O'Brien on February 11, 2002 at 08:51:09:
In Reply to: Re: CAPTAIN BRITAIN #31-39 - archived!
posted by DCW3 on February 10, 2002 at 15:04:42:

> Didn't Elizabeth change the family's surname (not the House name) 
to Mountbatten-Windsor shortly before Charles was born? 

Not sure.  Lesser princes tend to use the surname Windsor (for 
example, in his frequently-questionable business activities, Prince 
Edward generally refers to himself as Edward Windsor).

			*	*	*

Re: CAPTAIN BRITAIN #31-39 - archived!
Posted by Jeph! on February 11, 2002 at 16:09:27:
In Reply to: Re: CAPTAIN BRITAIN #31-39 - archived!
posted by Paul O'Brien on February 10, 2002 at 10:40:09:

So, then, to get back to my original question, how do you think the 
MCP entries for Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip should be 
alphebetized?

	-Jeph!
...I mean, an MCP entry of simply "Philip" is bound to cause some 
confusion...

			*	*	*

Re: CAPTAIN BRITAIN #31-39 - archived!
Posted by DCW3 on February 12, 2002 at 01:34:15:
In Reply to: Re: CAPTAIN BRITAIN #31-39 - archived!
posted by Jeph! on February 11, 2002 at 16:09:27:

How 'bout just "Philip, Prince"? I think people can figure it out.

			*	*	*

Re: CAPTAIN BRITAIN #31-39 - archived!
Posted by The Beetle on April 22, 2002 at 08:33:22:
In Reply to: Re: CAPTAIN BRITAIN #31-39 - archived!
posted by Paul O'Brien on February 10, 2002 at 10:40:09:

> The Royal Family's name is Windsor.  (It used to be something 
Germanic, but they changed it during World War I.)  But nobody 
uses the surname.

It used to be Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha changed to Windsor in 1917

			*	*	*

SUPER SPIDER-MAN #231-238 -- archived!
Posted by Jeph! on February 09, 2002 at 22:26:20:

I am fast now.  :)

This post is a write-up of the first eight issues of Captain 
Britain's run in the Marvel UK, Ltd., black-and-white "Spider-Man" 
title.  Without fail, the "Captain Britain" strip was the second 
story to run in the book, following the lead Spider-Man feature.  
I'm listing those Spider-Man stories under "Other Stories", but be 
aware that the Spider-Man story always ran first, and the CB story 
second.

----

First off, a note about titles.  The "Spider-Man" British weekly has 
morphed through many titles over the course of its run, some of which 
I'm sure I don't even know about.  It began as "Super Spider-Man", 
then changed to "Super Spider-Man and the Titans", then "Super Spider-
Man and Captain Britain" in 1977  it became "Spider-Man Comic" in 
1979 and "The Spectacular Spider-Man Weekly" in 1980.  After THAT it 
merged with the British Hulk comic and its title changed AGAIN  I'm 
not sure what its final, eventual title was, and I'm not sure if any 
issues besides #231-247 even carried any original (non-reprint) 
material.

That said, I have no way of knowing what the magazine's "official" 
title was.  In my own private collection I refer to it as "Spider-Man 
(Weekly)", and my general personal policy is to refer to a run of 
books by its most recent title (for example, the original "Defenders" 
title is thought of by me as "The New Defenders", since that was the 
title the series ended with).  I don't know what the MCP Key's policy 
is on this, and British Marvels don't carry detailed enough indicia 
to be of any help on the matter.

Currently, this book is listed in the MCP Key as "SSM&CB".  However, 
I feel obligated to point out that that title, "Super Spider-Man and 
Captain Britain", only refers to twenty-three issues of this magazine's 
400-some run.  That doesn't seem very inclusive to me  it seems the 
equivalent of using the Key to reference "Deadpool: Agent of Weapon X" 
numbers 57-60, when the larger title of the book is simply "Deadpool".

I'm going to refer to the book as "Super Spider-Man", which is much 
more inclusive a title, referring to at least the first 253 issues 
in some form or another  over half of the issues in the run.  My 
abbreviation will be "SSM"  Russ, if you wish to keep your Key 
designation, that's fine with me, but I must point out it's a lot 
more annoying to type!  ;)

----

Super Spider-Man #231  July 13, 1977
Captain Britain:  "Sea Fury!"  7 pages, B&W

Characters:
Queen Elizabeth II
The Highwayman
The Manipulator  (name revealed as Basil Crushstone)
Captain Britain
Chief Inspector Dai Thomas
(all last in CB #39)

Characters in flashback:
The Manipulator
The Highwayman

Synopsis:  Dai Thomas and Captain Britain sneak aboard the 
Manipulator's yacht, and hear him recall his origin  how, as the 
despotic ruler of the African nation of Umbazi, he uncovered a gem 
that could hypnotize people.  When ousted in a coup, he came to 
Britain, enlisted the Highwayman, and hypnotized the Queen.  As the 
hypnotized British Navy sets sail for Umbazi, CB and Dai Thomas are 
captured and gassed

Notes:  The flashback concerns the Manipulator's time as ruler of 
Umbazi and the events that led him to the Highwayman, and are set 
some time before either of their first appearances in CB #37.

Other stories (all B&W reprints):
Spider-Man  (12 pages)
The Avengers  (9 pages)
Captain America  (4 pages)
----

Super Spider-Man #232  July 20, 1977
Captain Britain:  "Death Duel!"  7 pages, B&W

Characters:
The Manipulator
The Highwayman
Captain Britain
Dai Thomas
Queen Elizabeth II (behind the scenes)

Synopsis:  Captain Britain overcomes the gas and frees Inspector 
Thomas, but has to battle hypnotized British sailors until Thomas 
lights a box of signal flares, clearing their minds.  CB defeats 
the Highwayman and the Manipulator tries to escape in a jet, but 
Thomas had thought to drain the jet's fuel, and it crashes into 
the ocean.  As the navy stands down, the Queen radios CB and Thomas 
her thanks.

Other stories (all B&W reprints):
Spider-Man  (6 pages, with a new splash page)
Fantastic Four  (5 pages)
The Avengers  (10 pages)

----

Super Spider-Man #233  July 27, 1977
Captain Britain:  "The Monster from the Murk!"  7 pages, B&W

Characters:
Captain Britain
Courtney Ross  (last in CB #30)
Jacko Tanner  (last in CB #38)
Mr. McNab, an innkeeper  (first appearance)
a nameless Alien Being, referred to in the "Next:" box as "the 
Star-Creature"  (first appearance)

Synopsis:  Brian Braddock and a science group from Thames University 
arrive at Loch Ness to look for its famous Monster with a 
bathysphere, but the operator of their inn, Mr. McNab, is sabotaging 
the project under mental orders from an alien being.  The 
bathysphere begins to leak and its cable snaps, and CB dives into 
the Loch to drag them to safety  but is himself attacked by a giant 
mechanical Loch Ness Monster, and dragged inside it by robots

Notes:  The alien being receives no name other than "the Star-
Creature", which because of its context is hardly an official 
appellation.  Since it is a principal villain in these two issues, 
I have listed it below as the Star-Creature; but if you wish to go 
by MCP rules stating that no unnamed character gets an entry, feel 
free to delete him.  Posterity will no doubt forgive you.  ;)

Other stories (all B&W reprints):
Spider-Man  (10 pages)
Fantastic Four  (6 pages, with a new splash page)
The Avengers  (9 pages)

----

Super Spider-Man #234  August 3, 1977
Captain Britain:  "When the Star-Creature Strikes!"  7 pages, B&W

Characters:
Captain Britain
"the Star-Creature"
Courtney Ross
Jacko Tanner
Mr. McNab

Characters in flashback:
"the Star-Creature"
Angus, a 1950's Scotsman

Synopsis:  The alien tells Captain Britain his origin; how he, an 
advance scout for a race hoping to drain the sun's energy, has been 
hiding beneath Loch Ness in a mechanical Monster for decades.  CB 
attacks him and, in the battle, damages his ship.  Meanwhile, on 
the surface, Courtney and Jacko accuse McNab of cutting the 
bathysphere cable, and he dives into the Loch to escape.  CB 
surfaces just as the alien's ship explodes, and McNab, caught in 
the wave, is unable to swim to safety.  The students head home as, 
from the Loch's depths, the true Loch Ness Monster surfaces 
momentarily

Notes:  The flashback depicts the alien landing, disguising his 
ship as a prehistoric monster, and watching mankind progress from 
WWII until 1977.  He hints that more of his race will arrive to 
drain the sun's energy, but that they won't arrive for "centuries". 
I highly doubt this has ever been followed up on, even in a future 
or alternate universe story  in other words, that there remains 
no way to identify the alien or his race with anything besides 
"Star-Creature".

Other stories (all B&W reprints):
Spider-Man  (8 pages, with a new splash page)
Fantastic Four  (11 pages, with a new splash page)
The Avengers  (6 pages)

----

Super Spider-Man #235  August 10, 1977
Captain Britain:  "Nightmare Castle!"  7 pages, B&W

Characters:
Captain Britain
the Black Baron (Lord Rupert "Roderick" Kemp)  (first appearance)
Courtney Ross
Hugo, the Kemp's butler  (first appearance)

Synopsis:  Captain Britain saves a young woman from a werewolf who 
has been loose in London.  The next day at Thames University, 
Courtney Ross introduces him to Lord Roddy Kemp, whose castle she 
plans to stay at for the weekend, and Brian notices that Kemp wears 
an identical ring as the werewolf.  That night, CB investigates 
the castle, and is attacked by living stone gargoyles, as the 
sleeping Courtney is menaced by "Roddy's" true aspect  a vampire

Notes:  The Kemp family apparently owns Darkmoor Castle, and 
Darkmoor was the name of the research facility at which CB worked 
prior to receiving his powers, as well as the copse of stones 
where he found the mystic amulet.  "Darkmoor Castle" is also the 
name of the research facility owned by the Haldanes and the 
immortal MyS-Tech board in Marvel UK's "Hell's Angel"/"Dark Angel" 
series.  This name repetition has always bothered me.  Is Darkmoor 
a real place in England?  How large is it, to contain so many 
castles and research facilities and immortal beings?

Also, the Kemp's butler Hugo appears in this and the next three 
issues.  As before, MCP rules state that characters named only by 
first name don't make it in, but I have included his information 
anyway.  The decision is up to you.

Other stories (all B&W reprints):
Spider-Man  (9 pages)
Fantastic Four  (9 pages)
The Avengers  (8 pages, with a new splash page)

----

Super Spider-Man #236  August 17, 1977
Captain Britain:  "The Wrath of the Black Baron!"  7 pages, B&W

Characters:
Captain Britain
the Black Baron
Courtney Ross
Hugo

Synopsis:  Captain Britain's capture by gargoyles interrupts the 
Black Baron's attempt to make Courtney into a vampire.  CB is 
gassed and hypnotized, and the Baron forces him to reveal how he 
learned of him  through a book in the Thames University library.  
CB is chained up in the basement, but manages to use his sceptre 
to force Hugo to unchain him, while at Thames, the werewolf 
destroys the book and attacks a group of students

Other stories (all B&W reprints):
Spider-Man  (7 pages)
Fantastic Four  (11 pages, with a new splash page)
The Avengers  (6 pages, with a new splash page)

----

Super Spider-Man #237  August 24, 1977
Captain Britain:  "When Terror Reigns!"  7 pages, B&W

Characters:
the Black Baron
Captain Britain
Dai Thomas
Hugo

Synopsis:  Dai Thomas and the London Police chase the werewolf 
away from Thames University, and Captain Britain shakes Hugo 
down for information, learning that the vampire, Lord Kemp, and 
the werewolf are one and the same.  CB confronts the werewolf 
in a battle ranging from Regent's Park to the Tower Bridge, 
where the two fall into the icy water.  CB, assuming the werewolf 
dead, sets off for Darkmoor to find Courtney, oblivious to the 
small bat which follows him

Other stories (all B&W reprints):
Spider-Man  (9 pages)
Fantastic Four  (6 pages)
The Avengers  (10 pages)

----

Super Spider-Man #238  August 31, 1977
Captain Britain:  "Doom at Darkmoor!"  7 pages, B&W

Characters:
Captain Britain
the Black Baron
Hugo
Satan
Courtney Ross

Synopsis:  Captain Britain sneaks his way into Darkmoor castle, 
while the Black Baron asks Satan's permission to make Courtney 
his bride.  CB interrupts, and the two battle, the Baron 
transforming into his werewolf aspect again.  CB impales him on 
the stem of a silver goblet, and destroys the parchment on which 
the Baron had made his pact with Satan centuries ago.  As the c
astle burns to the ground, CB escapes with Courtney.

Notes:  Satan himself appears in this issue.  I'm placing it 
between his appearances in Ghost Rider v2 #19 and 32, because 
they were published in December 1976 and January 1978 respectively.

Other stories (all B&W reprints):
Spider-Man  (10 pages, with a new splash page)
Fantastic Four  (8 pages, with a new splash page)
The Avengers  (5 pages)

----

Here's the MCP-style compilation of all the information presented 
above.  Like always, new characters are **starred, new appearances 
for old characters are *starred, first- and last-appearances 
surround the new information where available, and I am working on 
the assumption that my previous CB archives have already been 
posted to the MCP by the time this gets posted (hence, all their 
information is now "old").

Something I forgot to mention last time, too: some of the information 
collected below has already been sporadically posted on the MCP, like 
all of CB's information, and Courtney's appearance in SSM 238/2.  
That information is included below, but not starred.

**THE BLACK BARON / RUPERT "RODERICK" KEMP
*SSM 235/2
*SSM 236/2
*SSM 237/2
*SSM 238/2

CAPTAIN BRITAIN / BRIAN BRADDOCK

CB 39
SSM 231/2
SSM 232/2
SSM 233/2
SSM 234/2
SSM 235/2
SSM 236/2
SSM 237/2
SSM 238/2
SSM 239/2


THE HIGHWAYMAN
*SSM 231/2-FB
CB 37
CB 38
CB 39
*SSM 231/2
*SSM 232/2

**HUGO
*SSM 235/2
*SSM 236/2
*SSM 237/2
*SSM 238/2

THE MANIPULATOR / **BASIL CRUSHSTONE
*SSM 231/2-FB
CB 37
CB 38
CB 39
*SSM 231/2
*SSM 232/2

**MR. MCNAB
*SSM 233/2
*SSM 234/2

ROSS, COURTNEY

CB 30
*SSM 233/2
*SSM 234/2
*SSM 235/2
*SSM 236/2
SSM 238/2
XCAL 4-FB


SATAN / "MARDU KURIOS"
<br>GR2 19
*SSM 238/2
GR2 32


**"THE STAR-CREATURE"
*SSM 234/2-FB
*SSM 233/2
*SSM 234/2

TANNER, JACKO

CB 38
*SSM 233/2
*SSM 234/2

THOMAS, DAI

CB 39
*SSM 231/2
*SSM 232/2
*SSM 237/2
XCAL 1


WINDSOR, ELIZABETH II

CB 39
*SSM 231/2
*SSM 232/2-BTS

----

			*	*	*

Re: SUPER SPIDER-MAN #231-238 -- archived!
Posted by DCW3 on February 10, 2002 at 00:49:26:
In Reply to: SUPER SPIDER-MAN #231-238 -- archived!
posted by Jeph! on February 09, 2002 at 22:26:20:

http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/title/spiderman_comics_weekly.html

This link provides a list of the 10 (!) title changes that the 
Spider-Man British weekly went through during its run. According 
to this, it began with the title "Spider-Man Comics Weekly" which 
lasted until issue #158. 

It's my own meek opinion that it's most accurate for the Key to 
reflect legitimate title changes intended to be permanent (Luke 
Cage / Power Man /Power Man and Iron Fist; West Coast Avengers / 
Avengers West Coast) and ignore changes obviously for storylines 
of predetermined length (the Deadpool example). (For example, I 
don't think issues #134+ of "Spectacular Spider-Man should still 
be listed as PPTSS.) So I think the SSM&CB tag is most appropriate 
here.

			*	*	*

the MCP Key and book titles
Posted by Jeph! on February 11, 2002 at 17:25:20:
In Reply to: Re: SUPER SPIDER-MAN #231-238 -- archived!
posted by DCW3 on February 10, 2002 at 00:49:26:

> http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/title/spiderman_comics_weekly.html

> This link provides a list of the 10 (!) title changes that the 
Spider-Man British weekly went through during its run.

Great resource!, and thank you, but it missed one.  At issue #254, 
the Captain Britain back-up strip left the book, and its name 
changed to just plain "Super Spider-Man".

I'm also sad to see that you only seem to have information on about 
ten of the books.  I'll see if I can help you out with information 
on the seventeen books I have, if you want.

> It's my own meek opinion that it's most accurate for the Key 
to ... ignore changes obviously for storylines of predetermined 
length (the Deadpool example)... So I think the SSM&CB tag is most 
appropriate here.

But ... "SSM&CB" WAS a temporary title change, done only for the 
23 issues the CB strip ran.  As I said above, once CB left the book 
simplified itself to "Super Spider-Man".  I do see your point, 
though.

Looking at the Key, it seems to keep one single designation for a 
book, despite the books' title changes.  For example, "X-Men" became 
"New X-Men", and it is still referred to as X.  "Spider-Man" became 
"Peter Parker: Spider-Man", and it is still referred to as S-M.  
When a book changed titles drastically, like "Journey Into Mystery" 
becoming "Thor", the Key has two designations, but for relatively 
small name changes such as the ten that "Spider-Man Comics Weekly" 
undergo, the Key stays with one designation.

The trouble with THIS title, though, is that over the course of its 
twelve title shifts, not ONE WORD stays consistent all the way 
through -- not even "Spider-Man" (the last 14 issues are entitled 
"Spidey Comic").

My point, here, is that "SSM" is a much broader designation than 
"SSM&CB", and could more easily be used to refer to ALL of the 
book's 666-issue, 11-title run, whereas "SSM&CB" seems a very 
narrow Key designation given that it only refers to 23 issues of 
the book, which is slightly over three percent of the run.

I did some numbers out, actually, on it:

The word "Spider-Man" appears on the cover of 652 of the 666 issues.
The phrase "Super Spider-Man" appears on 256 issues.
The phrase "Spider-Man Comic" appears on 41 -- 198 if you count 
"Spider-Man ComicS".
The phrase "Spider-Man Weekly" appears on 42 issues.

The words "Spider-Man" and "Comic" appear, not necessarily together, 
on 144 issues -- if you count "Spidey" and "Comics", though, that 
figure rises to 315.

The words "Spider-Man" and "Weekly" appear, not necessarily together, 
on 273 issues.

So, going by frequency, the book's most popular title phrase is 
"Super Spider-Man", with 256  ... although by breaking up the phrase 
its most popular title becomes "Spider-Man Weekly" (that figure 
results if you add up "Spider-Man Comics Weekly", "Spectacular 
Spider-Man Weekly" and "Spider-Man and Hulk Weekly").  It is 
important to note, though, that at no time was the book's title 
EVER simply "Spider-Man Weekly"; that phrase is an amalgam title.  
That leaves "Super Spider-Man" as my top choice for overall best 
way to refer to the book.

It really doesn't matter to me what Russ decides to put up on HIS 
webpage.  I was just hoping to show the broader reach and scope of 
this book's titling issues, and make my usual obsessive-compulsive 
brand of suggestions.  ;)

To be honest, now that I look at it, "Spider-Man Weekly" is the 
most DESCRIPTIVE title...

Those confusing Brits.
	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: the MCP Key and book titles
Posted by Russ Chappell on February 11, 2002 at 19:47:53:
In Reply to: the MCP Key and book titles
posted by Jeph! on February 11, 2002 at 17:25:20:

Here's one option I'll consider: having multiple listings in the 
table that shows the titles in alphabetical order, but all of the 
titles pointing to only one abbreviated key, and I'm tempted to 
let that key be SMW.

			*	*	*

Re: the MCP Key and book titles
Posted by Jeph! on February 22, 2002 at 13:30:16:
In Reply to: Re: the MCP Key and book titles
posted by Russ Chappell on February 11, 2002 at 19:47:53:

That sounds like a good idea for ALL multi-title books that only 
have one Key listing (New X-Men/X-Men as the most prominent example).  
A slew of books have changed their names over the course of their 
runs, and adding them all (or most) to the alpha-Key would be a 
great resource for people new to the website and looking for their 
favorite books (New Defenders, PP: Spider-Man v1, Savage Sub-Mariner, 
etc etc).

And as for SSM/SMW, like I said, it doesn't matter all THAT much to 
me.  In my write-up of the next 9 issues I'll probably just call it 
SMW, in case you're in the mood to just cut-and-paste my info into 
the MCP.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Color me embarrassed...
Posted by DCW3 on February 11, 2002 at 23:02:41:
In Reply to: the MCP Key and book titles
posted by Jeph! on February 11, 2002 at 17:25:20:

> Great resource!, and thank you, but it missed one.  At issue #254, 
the Captain Britain back-up strip left the book, and its name changed 
to just plain "Super Spider-Man".

> I'm also sad to see that you only seem to have information on about 
ten of the books.  I'll see if I can help you out with information on 
the seventeen books I have, if you want.

Yeesh. I should've pointed out that I have nothing whatsoever to do 
with this site; please direct your praise and corrections to the 
great people at spiderfan.org.

> Looking at the Key, it seems to keep one single designation for a 
book, despite the books' title changes. For example, "X-Men" became 
"New X-Men", and it is still referred to as X. "Spider-Man" became 
"Peter Parker: Spider-Man", and it is still referred to as S-M. When 
a book changed titles drastically, like "Journey Into Mystery" 
becoming "Thor", the Key has two designations, but for relatively 
small name changes such as the ten that "Spider-Man Comics Weekly" 
undergo, the Key stays with one designation.

Well, there's still PM&IF (which I know lasted longer than 23 issues) 
but you're pretty much right. I guess if Russ started putting in all 
the SMW title changes he'd have to start adding "Daredevil and Black 
Widow", "Captain America and the Falcon", etc., and, while it might 
be nice for those of us with OCD, we don't want to put any more on 
him than he already has. Russ's idea for multiple Key listings is 
probably the best idea.

			*	*	*

Re: SUPER SPIDER-MAN #231-238 -- archived!
Posted by Paul O'Brien on February 10, 2002 at 10:44:51:
In Reply to: SUPER SPIDER-MAN #231-238 -- archived!
posted by Jeph! on February 09, 2002 at 22:26:20:

>Is Darkmoor a real place in England?  How large is it, to contain 
so many castles and research facilities and immortal beings?

It's a reference to Dartmoor.  Which is, well, a moor.

			*	*	*

Re: SUPER SPIDER-MAN #231-238 -- archived!
Posted by ShadZ on February 11, 2002 at 20:22:28:
In Reply to: SUPER SPIDER-MAN #231-238 -- archived!
posted by Jeph! on February 09, 2002 at 22:26:20:

> Also, the Kemp's butler Hugo appears in this and the next three 
issues.  As before, MCP rules state that characters named only by 
first name don't make it in, but I have included his information 
anyway.  The decision is up to you.

Butlers are traditionally refered to by last name when working.  
So Hugo is probably this guy's last name.

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Exiles continuity (Juggernaut and X-Men appearances)
Posted by garbonzo on February 09, 2002 at 23:19:34:

Note: According to the publishing information, the official title 
for the series is "The All New Exiles."  Otherwise, it would probably 
be listed as "Exiles (vol. 2)" as it is a spinoff, more or less, from 
the Malibu series, "Exiles."  I have referred to it as such.

The All New Exiles: Infinity    
This takes place after Wolverine (Vol. 2) #93. [As noted in a text 
box referring to the aftermath of the events of Wolverine #93]

Appearing:
  * Juggernaut
  * Reaper II
  * Siena Blaze
  * Amber Hunt
  * Shuriken
  * 'Strike
  *Tradesman

The All New Exiles #1

Appearing:
  * Juggernaut
  * Reaper II
  * Siena Blaze
  * Amber Hunt
  * Shuriken
  * 'Strike
  * Jerald Dragon a.k.a. Qune
  * Hellblade
  * Firewalker - BTS

The All New Exiles vs. X-Men (This story takes place between X-Men 44 
and 45 as Rogue leaves at the end of 45 for many issues.)

Appearing:
  * Juggernaut
  * Reaper II
  * Siena Blaze
  * Amber Hunt
  * Shuriken
  * 'Strike
  * Professor X
  * Jean Grey
  * Gateway
  * Gambit
  * Rogue
  * Storm
  * Iceman
  * Beast
  * Firewalker (some kind of monster.  I wasn't sure if it counted 
as a character, so I erred on the safe side.)

The All New Exiles #2

Appearing:
  * Juggernaut
  * Reaper II
  * Siena Blaze
  * Amber Hunt
  * Shuriken
  * 'Strike
  * Hellblade
  * Tradesman (One of a group of beings called The Tradesmen.  They 
are non-individuated.  This appearance is of a singule Tradesman)

The All New Exiles #3

Appearing:
  * Juggernaut
  * Reaper II
  * Siena Blaze
  * Amber Hunt
  * Shuriken
  * 'Strike
  * Hellblade
  * Hellblade origin - FB (Name revealed as Jefferson Koto)
  * Qune

The All New Exiles #4

Appearing:
  * Juggernaut
  * Reaper II
  * Siena Blaze
  * Amber Hunt
  * Shuriken
  * 'Strike
  * Hellblade
  * Black Knight V (Dane Whitman)
  * Topaz II  (I'll call her Topaz II as I don't think she is the 
same character who appeared in the WBN series)
  * Prime
  * Lament  - Felicia Campbell (This is not the same Lament from 
UX 382. Since this character predates the UX 382 Lament by a few 
years, that should make this one Lament I and the other Lament II)
  * Ghoul
  * Prototype
  * Cromwell

The All New Exiles #5 (This comic predates UX 333 as this is the 
comic where the Juggernaut returns to the Marvel Universe)

Appearing:
  * Juggernaut
  * Reaper II
  * Siena Blaze
  * Amber Hunt
  * Shuriken
  * 'Strike
  * Hellblade
  * Harvest III (This is a different Harvest from eithrt UX or X, 
therefore making it Harvest III)
  * Tradesmen (lots of them!)
  * Sixx (in a backup story that takes place shortly after the events 
in the main story)

			*	*	*

Exiles--out of continuity?
Posted by Gary M. Miller on February 11, 2002 at 20:21:38:
In Reply to: Exiles continuity (Juggernaut and X-Men appearances)
posted by garbonzo on February 09, 2002 at 23:19:34:

> The All New Exiles: Infinity    This takes place after Wolverine 
(Vol. 2) #93. [As noted in a text box referring to the aftermath of 
the events of Wolverine #93]

Just a note, and I don't know Russ' feelings about this, but 
according to Marvel, none of the Ultraverse crossovers count in 
continuity anymore--simply put, they all "never happened."  I know 
they were supposed to count at the time, but Marvel has since 
washed their hands (repeatedly) of all this stuff.  But of course, 
w/ regard to this site, it's Russ' call.

-Gary

			*	*	*

Re: Exiles--out of continuity?
Posted by Andy Holcombe on February 12, 2002 at 00:42:19:
In Reply to: Exiles--out of continuity?
posted by Gary M. Miller on February 11, 2002 at 20:21:38:

Then who is that Black Knight look-alike trying to contact the 
Avengers through that portal (I think in Avengers #380), which is 
an exact mimic for the scene in Ultraforce.  I say as long as it 
fits, leave it.  The Ultraverse stories provide an explaination of 
what happened to the Infinity Gems, Black Knight, Sersi (in part), 
and the Juggernaut.  These characters are shown leaving the Marvel 
Universe and then returning.  The Ultraverse stories, irregardless 
of quality (and there were some good points, especially pre-Black 
September), make up the middle.

From Marvel's standpoint, their probably embarressed about much of 
the crossovers, similar to the Spider-Clone saga and the Marvel UK 
superhero line of the 90's.  This doesn't nessesarily mean that 
those stories didn't happen, just that they won't be referred to.  
At least for several years and a change of management.

			*	*	*

Union Jack 2 and Destroyer 2
Posted by Andy Holcombe on February 11, 2002 at 00:00:52:

Warning

Possible Spoiler

Citizen V and the V-Battalion: The Everlasting #1 strongly hinted, 
to my mind at least, Union Jack 2(Brian Falsworth) and Destroyer 2
(Roger Aubrey) were a homo/bisexual couple.  Out of curiosity, is 
this a new development of Fabian Nicieza's or had this been explored/
suggested in earlier stories.

			*	*	*

Re: Union Jack 2 and Destroyer 2
Posted by ShadZ on February 11, 2002 at 20:03:05:
In Reply to: Union Jack 2 and Destroyer 2
posted by Andy Holcombe on February 11, 2002 at 00:00:52:

When Nicieza made a little joke in the first Citizen V mini that the 
costume/identity switching that Falsworth and Aubrey engaged in in 
Invaders "wasn't as gay as it sounded," several fans on a 
Thunderbolts mailing list said that they always thought that there 
was something gay about Falsworth and Aubreys' close friendship.  
So Nicieza decided to run with it and make them actually gay.

Roy Thomas hasn't mentioned yet what his original intent was when 
he wrote Invaders . . .

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Re: Union Jack 2 and Destroyer 2
Posted by Emil Blonsky on April 28, 2002 at 03:25:47:
In Reply to: Re: Union Jack 2 and Destroyer 2
posted by ShadZ on February 11, 2002 at 20:03:05:

Is it just me or do I remember reading somewhere that Union Jack I 
mentioned something about UJII not having or not able to have 
children (Maybe in CA, when UJ3 was introduced)...hmmm could that 
have been an early hint of UJ2's sexual preference?

			*	*	*

DC Project
Posted by seethroughguy</a> on February 11, 2002 at 17:07:00:

 Does anyone know what happened to the DC Chronology Project?  Erased 
from existance by the Crisis?

			*	*	*

Re: DC Project
Posted by Russ Chappell on February 11, 2002 at 19:50:59:
In Reply to: DC Project
posted by seethroughguy on February 11, 2002 at 17:07:00:

The last time I checked, it was hosted by Alvaro.
http://www.comicboards.com"

			*	*	*

The Hornet
Posted by Antonio Gavio on February 13, 2002 at 14:04:54:

How come SENSM 28 is listed before A3 1 in Spider-Man chronology 
and after in Captain America's, Iron Man's and Wasp's?

			*	*	*

Re: The Hornet
Posted by Russ Chappell on February 13, 2002 at 18:37:40:
In Reply to: The Hornet
posted by Antonio Gavio on February 13, 2002 at 14:04:54:

Not sure what this has to do with the Hornet, but...

For what it's worth, we recognized the problem at the time, as you 
can see from our notes on SENSM 28:

Chronological analysis: This one is a mess. For Spider-Man, this 
story takes place in mid-January II, but the presence of Captain 
Americas round shield dictates that the Avengers appear before 
Cap loses his shield in ca3 2, which places it just after tb 12 
for the avengers & ff, which would mean early December. Not only 
that, but Heroes for Hire is a mystery. White Tiger leaves hfh to 
visit Wundagore just before a3 1, and doesnt return until Cage 
has been exposed as a traitor. We can only hope that Cage returns 
with hfh after defeating the Master.

I should point out that the calendar dates (December, January, and 
so on) are arbitrary placements on a calendar which allows us to 
keep straight the chronological tangles that some Marvel characters 
find themselves in. It simply means that one book occurs approximately 
one month before the other book.

Can someone help us out of this?

			*	*	*

Issue Chronology Notes
Posted by Andy Holcombe on February 13, 2002 at 22:39:00:
In Reply to: Re: The Hornet
posted by Russ Chappell on February 13, 2002 at 18:37:40:

> For what it's worth, we recognized the problem at the time, as 
you can see from our notes on SENSM 28:

Are these issue chronoloy notes/timelines available for public 
consumption or only available to a select few?

			*	*	*

Re: Issue Chronology Notes
Posted by Russ Chappell on February 14, 2002 at 19:02:24:
In Reply to: Issue Chronology Notes
posted by Andy Holcombe on February 13, 2002 at 22:39:00:

For the most part, they're private notes. Every now and then, if 
the situation warrants, I share. They can provide some insight 
into the process for the curious, kind of like that treatment/script 
of the first five pages of "Marvels" that Kurt Busiek posted 
somewhere (was it the Avengers Assemble site?).

			*	*	*

The Hornet
Posted by Antonio Gavio on February 26, 2002 at 12:19:25:
In Reply to: Re: The Hornet
posted by Russ Chappell on February 13, 2002 at 18:37:40:

> > How come SENSM 28 is listed before A3 1 in Spider-Man chronology 
and after in Captain America's, Iron Man's and Wasp's?

> Not sure what this has to do with the Hornet, but...

I NAMED THE MESSAGE 'THE HORNET' BECAUSE PETER PARKER ASSUMES THAT 
IDENTITY IN SENSM 28.

> For what it's worth, we recognized the problem at the time, as 
you can see from our notes on SENSM 28:

CAN I? I'M AFRAID I DON'T KNOW HOW

> Chronological analysis: This one is a mess. For Spider-Man, this 
story takes place in mid-January II, but the presence of Captain 
Americas round shield dictates that the Avengers appear before 
Cap loses his shield in ca3 2, which places it just after tb 12 for 
the avengers & ff, which would mean early December. Not only that, 
but Heroes for Hire is a mystery. White Tiger leaves hfh to visit 
Wundagore just before a3 1, and doesnt return until Cage has been 
exposed as a traitor. We can only hope that Cage returns with hfh 
after defeating the Master.

> I should point out that the calendar dates (December, January, 
and so on) are arbitrary placements on a calendar which allows us 
to keep straight the chronological tangles that some Marvel 
characters find themselves in. It simply means that one book occurs 
approximately one month before the other book.

> Can someone help us out of this?

HERE'S SOME HELP:
A3 1: THE PROBLEM IS SPIDER-MAN'S APPEARANCE IN THIS BOOK.
LET'S START BY SAYING THAT SPIDER-MAN'S APPEARANCE IN A3 1 SHOULD 
FIT BETWEEN HIS APPEARANCES IN IN FF3 2 AND SENSM 24, A WEEK OR SO 
AFTER BEING INVITED BY JARVIS TO BE PART OF THE AVENGERS MEETING 
(ASM 431). THE MENTION OF "FIVE DIFFERENT THINGS AT THE SAME TIME" 
AND "LEGAL DFICULTIES" SHOULD REFER TO HIS HEAD BEING PRICED BY THE 
BUGLE AND NOT THE FACT THAT HE HAS ASSUMED FOUR IDENTITIES (DUSK, 
RICOCHET, HORNET AND PRODIGY). 
THAT SHOULD TAKE CARE OF SPIDER-MAN IN A3 1 WITH NO FURTHER PROBLEMS. 
NOW COMES THE HARD PART.
SENSM 28: HERE THE PROBLEM LIES NOT IN SPIDER-MAN'S APPEARANCE BUT 
EVERYBODY ELSE'S (SPIDEY'S IS WELL PLACED IN EARLY JANUARY).
IN CA3 3 TONY STARK GIVES CAP A REPLICA OF HIS ROUND SHIELD, ALSO 
SEEN AFTER THAT IN SS '98. THIS COULD BE THE SAME SHIELD SEEN IN 
SENSM28. THIS WAY THIS ISSUE COULD BE PUSHED LATER THAT JUST EARLY 
DECEMBER. THE PRESENCE OF JAN HERE SUGGESTS THAT THIS STORY HAS TO 
TAKE PLACE BEFORE HER DEPARTURE FROM THE TEAM IN IN A3 4. NOW COMES 
THE QUESTION: WHY CAN'T CA3 4 HAPPEN BEFORE A3 4? IF CA3 4 WAS 
PLACED BEFORE , THE SNOW SEEN IN THE ISSUE COULD BE THE SAME SEEN 
IN SENSM 24 OR THE ONE IN S-M 88, BOTH HAPPENING BEFORE SENSM 28. 
WICH MONTH DO YOU THINK A3 4 HAPPENS ANY WAY?

			*	*	*

Man-Thing &amp; Ellen Brandt-Sallis corrections
Posted by Gary M. Miller on February 14, 2002 at 21:41:50:

Hi,

I think I have a few minor corrections for Man-Thing and Ellen 
Sallis, after picking up the majority of the muck-monster's 
appearances (either in reprints or originals).

The Man-Thing's third series ran 8 issues, not six as are listed 
on the site so far.  (If someone has yet to review the final two 
issues, then I apologize and say "carry on!"  But the creature, as 
we knew him, allegedly "died" in PPSM '00.  The "Man-Thing" in HULK #4 
and 6-7 is a simulacrum, created by the swamp via the "magic" of 
Owen Candler, and "dies" shortly after Candler is killed.  (Check 
the script in the story, it makes it pretty clear this was NOT 
really Man-Thing.)  Therefore, the entry for Man-Thing should 
probably go something like this:

MAN-THING / THEODORE "TED" SALLIS
M-T3 6
M-T3 7
M-T3 8
ST5 1
ST5 2
PPSM '99
XFOR 100

The other Man-Thing, created from Owen Candler's living plant-
whatever, should be designated MAN-THING II with appearances listed 
thusly:

MAN-THING II
H3 4
H3 6
H3 7

In addition, Ellen Brandt, I have seen, did indeed appear in that 
very first Man-Thing adventure, Savage Tales magazine #1, and should 
therefore have that book listed as her first appearance, not 
Astonishing Tales #12.  (It was in the original Savage Tales story 
that Ellen first had her face burned by her husband.)  I could swear 
she has an appearance or three later in Marvel Comics Presents, but 
I know those aren't archived yet.  Also, it's never been made entirely 
clear whether the dream-representations shown to Ellen by Dr. Strange 
in M-T3 2-FB happened exactly that way--they could be subjective 
interpretations, and might not really "count".  For completeness' 
sake right now, I will include them in the reworked chronology which 
uses the books that have been added:

BRANDT, ELLEN
M-T3 2-FB
SAVAGE TALES 1 (first appearance)
AT 12
MU 5
M-T3 4-FB
M-T3 1
M-T3 2
M-T3 3
M-T3 4
M-T3 5
M-T3 6
M-T3 7
M-T3 8
ST5 1
ST5 2
PPSM '99

If I find anything else during my read-throughs, I'll keep you 
posted.

-Gary

			*	*	*

Re: Man-Thing &amp; Ellen Brandt-Sallis corrections
Posted by Scott Hutchins on May 04, 2002 at 01:19:32:
In Reply to: Man-Thing & Ellen Brandt-Sallis corrections
posted by Gary M. Miller on February 14, 2002 at 21:41:50:

Wouldn't the one in X Force 100 not be Man-Thing, either?

Ellen and Ted both appear in MCP 164-167, but I haven't read those 
yet, and they don't look in continuity, but might explain Ellen's 
face.

			*	*	*

Only for the serious chronologists....
Posted by Russ Chappell on February 14, 2002 at 22:21:20:

Hey! Check it out! According to Physicsweb, a bunch of mathematicians 
have determined that the Marvel Universe is kind of close to a "real" 
universe.

...at least I *think* that's what they decided. They...kind of lost 
me around the ninth page.

And how did they arrive at this conclusion? Well, they used...us. 
Everyone give yourselves a pat on the back.

Below is the link to the article. In a followup, I'll post the link 
where you can download the paper itself.

But if you're not a mathematician, you might want to brew up a pot 
of coffee, first...

http://physicsweb.org/article/news/6/2/14

			*	*	*

Re: Only for the serious chronologists....
Posted by Russ Chappell on February 14, 2002 at 22:25:51:
In Reply to: Only for the serious chronologists....
posted by Russ Chappell on February 14, 2002 at 22:21:20:

As promised, here's the address to download the paper itself. I 
recommend the PDF, if you have Adobe Acrobat.
http://xxx.lanl.gov/format/cond-mat/0202174

			*	*	*

Re: Only for the serious chronologists....
Posted by memeomatic on February 23, 2002 at 10:54:53:
In Reply to: Re: Only for the serious chronologists....
posted by Russ Chappell on February 14, 2002 at 22:25:51:

FYI, this story was also covered on slashdot.

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/02/22/185249&mode=thread&tid=134

			*	*	*

Re: Only for the serious chronologists....
Posted by Edward Vielmetti on February 25, 2002 at 22:12:28:
In Reply to: Re: Only for the serious chronologists....
posted by memeomatic on February 23, 2002 at 10:54:53:

This is also a topic of discussion on SOCNET, a mailing list for 
sociologists & others who analyze social networks.  (I was just at 
their annual conference in New Orleans.)  Expect more papers coming...

http://www.heinz.cmu.edu/project/INSNA/

			*	*	*

Re: Only for the serious chronologists....
Posted by SKleefeld on February 18, 2002 at 15:20:39:
In Reply to: Only for the serious chronologists....
posted by Russ Chappell on February 14, 2002 at 22:21:20:

> Hey! Check it out! According to Physicsweb, a bunch of 
mathematicians have determined that the Marvel Universe is kind of 
close to a "real" universe.

This was also sent out to the Comic Scholars Mailing List, FYI.

> ...at least I *think* that's what they decided. They...kind of 
lost me around the ninth page.

Heh. I made it through 11 before I was totally lost. But I caught 
up again in the conclusion, and yes, the Marvel Universe very nearly 
mimics the real world when it comes to social networks as seen from 
mathematical probablities. (Man, I'd love to see the original grant 
proposal for that!)

> And how did they arrive at this conclusion? Well, they used...us. 
Everyone give yourselves a pat on the back.

No, Russ, this is all you. This is your baby, and you deserve the 
recognition for it. The rest of us who've chimed in from time to 
time just played babysitter.

Congrats, Russ. Well deserved kudos!

- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Only for the serious chronologists....
Posted by Jimmy on February 21, 2002 at 14:53:39:
In Reply to: Re: Only for the serious chronologists....
posted by SKleefeld on February 18, 2002 at 15:20:39:

Very interesting. I study some mathematics and I can only confirm 
that you need some mathematical background to fully understand all 
of it, especially when they confront the reader with the binomial
distribution on page eleven...

It's fascinating though. A big group of writers, often independent 
of eachother and with no real plan, have created an artificial 
world with an artificial social network during 40 years. And now 
it turns out that in most aspects it resambles a real-life network.
The only thing that I found in the report that differ the Marvel 
Universe from a real one, is that a group of figures have a too 
large social network, i.e. in reality Spider-Man wouldn't had met 
so many other figures that he has in the Marvels Universe.

/Jimmy

			*	*	*

Re: Only for the serious chronologists....
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on February 28, 2002 at 14:46:06:
In Reply to: Only for the serious chronologists....
posted by Russ Chappell on February 14, 2002 at 22:21:20:

I've read it, but remain perplexed at its purpose.

The author talks about the artificiality of the MU, since the number 
of connections to popular characters are extremely high (Spidey and 
Cap have teamed up with everybody), but... isn't that a foregone 
conclusion?  I'm not sure what the whole paper accomplishes.

As for patting ourselves on the back - Russ, you deserve the lion's 
share of praise for the existence and perpetuation of the Project. 
OTOH, when it comes to accomplishing things by means of the Project, 
I think that pros using this resource to craft better stories are 
the real reason to be happy.

- StAkAr Karnak, happy camper

			*	*	*

fanfic writer needs chronology help!
Posted by maestro_takatak on February 15, 2002 at 13:33:49:

Im thinking about writing some fan-fiction stories set in a Marvel 
Universe that splits off from the normal Marvel Universe just before 
issue #297 of the Fantastic Four.  So what I need to figure out is 
where the cut-off point is across the entirety of the Marvel 
Universe.  But after examining the Marvel Chronology Project for 
hours on end, Im nowhere close to beginning to see HOW this is to 
be done.  

One problem is that the Mutant Massacre storyline (focused on Power 
Pack #27 in this example) seems to be set in different times for 
different characters.  For members of the Fantastic Four, it happens 
prior to Iron Man Annual #8.  For members of X-Factor, it happens 
after Iron Man Annual #8.  Which makes very little sense to me.  
(Personally, Im hoping that the whole Mutant Massacre thing turns 
out to happen AFTER Fantastic Four #297, because I dont want to 
have to deal with it.)  

But beyond chronological inconsistencies like that one, Im not sure 
how to figure out how to establish a cut-off point for characters 
that dont appear in the FF.  Any help from the fine chronologists 
reading this message board will be greatly appreciated.  

			*	*	*

Ant-Man
Posted by TeaBee on February 18, 2002 at 11:48:52:

Where's the Marvel Feature issues in ANT-MAN/DR. HENRY J. PYM's 
chronology? I noticed they ARE in Wasp's.

Also Marvel Feature #8 is a reprint of TTA #44 I think, yet it's 
in Wasp's Chronology no where near TTA #44.

I'm getting some of these off ebay so I can verify more of this in 
a while.

PS. Great site!

			*	*	*

Re: Ant-Man
Posted by DCW3 on February 18, 2002 at 12:18:26:
In Reply to: Ant-Man
posted by TeaBee on February 18, 2002 at 11:48:52:

The Marvel Feature issues are listed under Yellowjacket. It looks 
like his chronology listing really ought to return to Ant-Man at 
some point before this.

			*	*	*

Re: Ant-Man
Posted by DCW3 on February 18, 2002 at 12:23:45:
In Reply to: Re: Ant-Man
posted by DCW3 on February 18, 2002 at 12:18:26:

Oh, and according to the Unofficial Handbook of Marvel Comics 
Creators, only the second story of M/FEA 8 was a reprint; the 
first was a new story.

			*	*	*

Re: Ant-Man
Posted by David Smith on February 19, 2002 at 07:42:23:
In Reply to: Re: Ant-Man
posted by DCW3 on February 18, 2002 at 12:23:45:

As I recall, the issue actually has the reprint as a flashback. 
The begining and ending couple of pages are new but basically leave 
Ant-man and wasp in the same prediciment they were in at the end of 
issue 7.

			*	*	*

Midnight Sons titles and gap 2 (?)
Posted by Gary M. Miller on February 19, 2002 at 12:22:47:

Russ & co--

I noticed the listing of titles in the second gap does not include 
the title DARKHOLD: PAGES FROM THE BOOK OF SINS, yet issues are 
obviously missing from the chronology of Victoria Montesi, Sam 
Buchanan (whose name needs changed to "Buchanan, Samson"), Prof. 
Louise Hastings, et al.  (In fact only DHOLD 1-3 are listed.)  In 
addition, the demon host for Chthon, Other I, has appearances in 
the DHOLD 1-3 which are not even listed.  (And Chthon, who HAS 
appeared, doesn't even have a listing.)  Is anyone analyzing these 
issues?  If not, I'd like to do so.

Also, I see neither NIGHTSTALKERS nor MORBIUS nor SPIRITS OF 
VENGEANCE, BLAZE, BLADE THE VAMPIRE HUNTER, MIDNIGHT SONS UNLIMITED, 
nor much of the run of GHOST RIDER v3 listed in individual 
chronologies or on the "gap 2" page.  I own all issues of these 
runs and all specials (and even the complete Marvel Comics Presents 
series, of which the Midnight Sons were a part--which issues of that 
title aren't yet analyzed?), so if these need analysis and you want 
me to start, just tell me where and I'll do them, 3 at a time, ASAP.

Thanks,

-Gary M. Miller

			*	*	*

Re: Midnight Sons titles and gap 2 (?)
Posted by Sean Welch on April 14, 2002 at 22:10:53:
In Reply to: Midnight Sons titles and gap 2 (?)
posted by Gary M. Miller on February 19, 2002 at 12:22:47:

Gary, and all midnight sons readers,

I have quite nearly every Midnight Sons title and almost every 
cross-over of Danny Ketch/Ghost Rider, Morbius, and Doctor Strange, 
so if you want some confirmation on the chronology of those series 
please feel free to email me with a request.

Sean

			*	*	*

John Blaze Chronology
Posted by Blaze on February 22, 2002 at 17:42:33:

 I've been working on the complete Midnight Sons chronology for a 
while now and I've managed to come up with John Blaze's chronology 
between the Siege Of Darkness & the new Ghost Rider series. I've 
come up with alot more but I second guess alot of what I've come up 
with so I wont post it. The only issue I am second guessing in this 
list (which I will keep out) is Midnight Sons Unlimited #5, which 
occurs sometime before Blaze #1. OK so for those interested here it 
is.

Blaze: Legacy of Blood #1
Blaze: Legacy of Blood #2
Blaze: Legacy of Blood #3
Blaze: Legacy Of Blood #4
Spirits of Vengeance # 19
Spirits of Vengeance #20
Spirits of Vengeance #21
Spirits of Vengeance #22
Ghost Rider Vol.3 #50
Spirits of Vengeance #23
Blaze #1
Blaze #2
Blaze #3
Ghost Rider Annual #2/3
Blaze #4
Blaze #5
Blaze #6
Blaze #7
Blaze #8
Blaze #9
Blaze #10 
Blaze #11
Blaze #12
Ghost Rider: Crossroads
Over The Edge #9
Ghost Rider Vol.3 #72 
Ghost Rider Vol.3 #73 
Ghost Rider Vol.3 #74 
Ghost Rider Vol.3 #75 
Ghost Rider Vol.3 #76
Ghost Rider Vol.3 #77
Ghost Rider Vol.3 #78
Ghost Rider Vol.3 #79
Ghost Rider Vol.3 #80
Ghost Rider Vol.3 #81
Ghost Rider Vol.3 #82
Ghost Rider Vol.3 #83
Ghost Rider Vol.3 #84
Ghost Rider Vol.3 #85
Ghost Rider Vol.3 #86
Ghost Rider Vol.3 #88
Ghost Rider Vol.3 #89
X-Force/Champions '98

That's it any thoughts or questions?

			*	*	*

Hulk covers w/ Fantastic Four
Posted by Lisa on February 22, 2002 at 19:19:32:

Do the Hulk and the Fantastic Four share any Hulk covers?  Thanks!

			*	*	*

Re: Hulk covers w/ Fantastic Four
Posted by Russ Chappell on February 22, 2002 at 20:27:09:
In Reply to: Hulk covers w/ Fantastic Four
posted by Lisa on February 22, 2002 at 19:19:32:

Hulk #122.

			*	*	*

Re: Hulk covers w/ Fantastic Four
Posted by M on February 22, 2002 at 22:53:20:
In Reply to: Hulk covers w/ Fantastic Four
posted by Lisa on February 22, 2002 at 19:19:32:

Issues #122 and #152.

			*	*	*

Excalibur #s 83-84=
Posted by M on February 22, 2002 at 22:44:02:

Bishop appears in #83. All other characters appearing have been 
covered.

Rory Campbell appears in #84. There's also a flashback to The Uncanny 
X-Men #303 with Shadowcat and Magik. All other appearences have been 
covered. 

			*	*	*

Venus I &amp; II?
Posted by Doc on February 23, 2002 at 07:44:16:

I was just searching for random GAMS characters at the Marvel 
Chronology Project and came across something that I found very 
peculiar.

VENUS/APHRODITE/VICTORIA NUTLEY "VICKI" STARR 
MARVEL SUPER-HEROES vol. 3 9-FB
VENUS 1 
VENUS 2 
VENUS 3
VENUS 4
VENUS 5
VENUS 6
VENUS 7
VENUS 8
VENUS 9
VENUS 10
VENUS 11
VENUS 12
VENUS 13
VENUS 14
VENUS 15
VENUS 16
VENUS 17
VENUS 18
VENUS 19
MARVEL: THE LOST GENERATION 5
SUB-MARINER 57
CHAMPIONS 1
CHAMPIONS 2
CHAMPIONS 3
AVENGERS 283
AVENGERS 284
AVENGERS 285-BTS
MARVEL SUPER-HEROES vol. 3 9
SHE-HULK 36
MARVEL VALENTINE SPECIAL 1/3
VENUS II
WHAT IF 9
AVENGERS FOREVER 4
AVENGERS FOREVER 5

The MCP doesn't list two different 3-D Men or Marvel Boys. So why 
two different Venuses?

I could  almost  understand the MCP listing the Venus that appeared 
in What If #9 and AF #4-#5 as an alternate reality character. However, 
the MCP does not do that for the other 1958 Avengers or for any other
Marvel character that appeared in What If (that I noticed). AFAIK, 
the characters that appeared in What If #9 (and later AF 4-5) are 
from the mainstream (prime) Marvel Universe Earth. Even Kurt Busiek 
has stated that the heroes that were formally known as the 1958 
Avengers are from the mainstream Marvel continuity and that only 
their gathering as "Avengers" has been erased, but they still may 
have formed a team by a different name.

BTW, I love the MCP! Great work, Russ!

Doc

			*	*	*

The other 1958 Avengers
Posted by Doc on February 24, 2002 at 09:45:59:
In Reply to: Venus I & II?
posted by Doc on February 23, 2002 at 07:44:16:

> The MCP doesn't list two different 3-D Men or Marvel Boys. So 
why two different Venuses? 

Also Gorilla-Man and Human Robot only have one listing each. 

Doc

			*	*	*

Re: Venus I &amp; II?
Posted by Sean Curtin on February 28, 2002 at 11:01:49:
In Reply to: Venus I & II?
posted by Doc on February 23, 2002 at 07:44:16:

> The MCP doesn't list two different 3-D Men or Marvel Boys. So why 
two different Venuses? 

Because the '50s Avengers formed in an alternate timeline, as is 
shown in Avengers Forever.  There *should* be two listings for all 
of the characters from the '50s Avengers.

> I could  almost  understand the MCP listing the Venus that 
appeared in What If #9 and AF #4-#5 as an alternate reality 
character. However, the MCP does not do that for the other 1958 
Avengers or for any other Marvel character that appeared in What 
If (that I noticed).

A few issues of What If? volume 1 (and the "Timequake" storyline 
in volume 2) were actually set in the canonical MU, as were the 
backup stories in WI? v1.  These would be the only issues of WI? 
that have been entered into the MCP.

> AFAIK, the characters that appeared in What If #9 (and later AF 
4-5) are from the mainstream (prime) Marvel Universe Earth. Even 
Kurt Busiek has stated that the heroes that were formally known as 
the 1958 Avengers are from the mainstream Marvel continuity and that 
only their gathering as "Avengers" has been erased,

Those characters still exist in the mainstream Marvel Universe, but 
their alternate-timeline counterparts were wiped out, along with 
their entire timeline.

> but they still may have formed a team by a different name.

If they did, it hasn't been shown on panel, and can't be included 
in the MCP until then.

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

MARVELS
Posted by John Whitfield on February 26, 2002 at 14:59:12:

Remember this series ? How old is journalist Phil Sheldon in Comic 
years ?

			*	*	*

listings by book
Posted by Ben Kennedy on February 27, 2002 at 12:16:14:

Is there a searchable index that lists characters per book / issue?  
This would be much faster than hopping around from character to 
character and scanning the list.  For example, I looked up 
Gatecrasher, who I know was all over the first few issues of 
Excalibur (see image URL).  Yet all those early issues (pre-gap) 
are supposedly indexed, just look up Kitty Pryde.  Not to mention 
all the Technet encounters Captain Britain had.  A cross-reference 
by book/issue would be very useful to double check, etc.

--Ben Kennedy

			*	*	*

Re: listings by book
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on February 28, 2002 at 14:36:35:
In Reply to: listings by book
posted by Ben Kennedy on February 27, 2002 at 12:16:14:

On 27 Feb 2002, Ben Kennedy wrote:

The purpose on the MCP is to track characters, not to annotate 
books.  To get info on a particular book, you could try the Grand 
Comics Database ( http://www.comics.org/ ) or look up a particular 
title in a search engine.

Regards,
- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: listings by book
Posted by Ben Kennedy on February 28, 2002 at 22:08:25:
In Reply to: Re: listings by book
posted by StAkAr Karnak on February 28, 2002 at 14:36:35:

I understand, but you have to read the books to make the chronology.  
The first example I pulled out of the top of my head (Gatecrasher 
and the Technet) had obvious gaps.  It would be very useful to correct 
and enhance the chronology with a handy cross-reference by issue.  
Thus the next time I read Excalibur #15, I would need to view only 
one web page rather than skip around to 20+ pages to add appearances.  
This becomes even more important to correct errors that misplace 
someone in a particular issue.  If someone said She-Hulk was in 
Excalibur 15, I'd have no way of correcting the mistake without a 
listing of all appearances, otherwise the chronology error would 
persist.  Its silly to think there are no errors, or else I just 
happened to find a big fluke (Gatecrasher was in a bunch of those 
early Excalibur books btw).

Assuming that the data is stored in some kind of database, this 
should be easy to do.  If it is currently only in HTML, I would 
volunteer to turn it into something more adaptable.

--Ben

			*	*	*

Re: listings by book
Posted by Brian Cook on March 01, 2002 at 18:18:01:
In Reply to: Re: listings by book
posted by Ben Kennedy on February 28, 2002 at 22:08:25:

Try the ComicsDB at www.comicsdb.com

			*	*	*

Re: listings by book
Posted by Jeph! on March 02, 2002 at 14:03:17:
In Reply to: Re: listings by book
posted by Ben Kennedy on February 28, 2002 at 22:08:25:

> The first example I pulled out of the top of my head (Gatecrasher 
and the Technet) had obvious gaps.  Its silly to think there are no 
errors, or else I just happened to find a big fluke (Gatecrasher was 
in a bunch of those early Excalibur books btw).

Maybe it's just me being stupid, but I can't seem to understand the 
nature of the "error" you found.  Could you try to explain it again?  
Is someone NOT listed for books they APPEAR in?  Is it vice versa?  
A while back I did a big study of the Technet and the MCP and didn't 
find all that many errors.

Thanks...
	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

OOPS! -- Gatecrasher's appearances
Posted by Jeph again on March 02, 2002 at 14:10:46:
In Reply to: Re: listings by book
posted by Jeph! on March 02, 2002 at 14:03:17:

> Maybe it's just me being stupid, but I can't seem to understand 
the nature of the "error" you found.

WHOOPS!  My bad.  I just looked up Gatecrasher again, and she 
definitely is missing a BUNCH of early appearances.  Funny, though, 
a year ago when I cross-checked the books with the MCP all her 
appearances were there.  I don't know what could have happened...

Here's a copy of Gatecrasher's old MCP chronology:

GATECRASHER
EXCAL SE
EXCAL 12
EXCAL 13
EXCAL 15
EXCAL 42
EXCAL 51
EXCAL 125
FF3 6
FF3 7
FF3 8

She also appeared in a backup story in EXCAL@1, taking place before 
the EXCAL SE, but I think that issue falls in the Gap so I won't 
list it.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: OOPS! -- Gatecrasher's appearances
Posted by Ben Kennedy on March 04, 2002 at 09:35:36:
In Reply to: OOPS! -- Gatecrasher's appearances
posted by Jeph again on March 02, 2002 at 14:10:46:

> WHOOPS!  My bad.  I just looked up Gatecrasher again, and she 
definitely is missing a BUNCH of early appearances.  Funny, though, 
a year ago when I cross-checked the books with the MCP all her 
appearances were there.  I don't know what could have happened...

Ok, having established that I'm not crazy...

I guess the real issue is what I mentioned before, which is the 
current format of the database.  Is the data simply stored as the 
HTML pages we are viewing?  Or stored in a relational database with 
each book getting a unique ID, each character getting a unique ID, 
and a bunch of tables that list each relationship (which every other 
comic database does).  And yes, dare I say, there needs to be a 
"Timeline ID" that specifies which timelines these various books fall 
into (which seems to be the entire purpose of this project!).  Yes 
there are a lot of timelines with the What If? volumes, the Cross 
Time caper, the various X-futures, 2099, Kang, etc but it would be 
very rewarding once completed.

When people start saying "I don't know what could of happened" it 
makes me think that its time for some kind of data reorganization

--Ben Kennedy

			*	*	*

Re: OOPS! -- Gatecrasher's appearances
Posted by Russ Chappell on March 04, 2002 at 18:24:20:
In Reply to: Re: OOPS! -- Gatecrasher's appearances
posted by Ben Kennedy on March 04, 2002 at 09:35:36:

> I guess the real issue is what I mentioned before, which is the 
current format of the database.  Is the data simply stored as the 
HTML pages we are viewing?  Or stored in a relational database 

It's on a calendar, not a relational database. When you consider 
that, from the chronological perspective of different characters, 
it's possible for story A to take place both before and after story 
B at the same time, it doesn't seem to lend itself too well to a 
relational database. And that's not counting the issue of time 
travel.

> When people start saying "I don't know what could of happened" 
it makes me think that its time for some kind of data reorganization

I'm not really looking to reorganize the data. I kind of like the 
way it is. Now having said that, anyone who wants to use the data 
here to construct their own database is welcome to give it a shot, 
but please, no alerts that Character A appears in story B before 
story C, and Character D appears in story C before story B, so one 
of them *must* be wrong, unless you've read and are familiar with 
both stories.

			*	*	*

Re: OOPS! -- Gatecrasher's appearances
Posted by Ben Kennedy on March 06, 2002 at 09:57:13:
In Reply to: Re: OOPS! -- Gatecrasher's appearances
posted by Russ Chappell on March 04, 2002 at 18:24:20:

The benefits of storing the data in a relational database are 95% 
related to presentation, organization, and extensibility.  Storing 
an ordered list of appearances in a database is easily solvable.

The issues of this - the project currently tracks only appearances, 
and the appearances themselves form the chronology of a single 
character.  Currently, the only meta-information about an appearance 
is whether or not it occured through a flashback, or as the first 
published appearance of a character.  This is pretty much as advanced 
as it can get before it becomes a nightmare of codes.  But do we want 
to track other nuggets of meta-data per appearance?  How about group 
affiliation, e.g. "Character ABC was in the X-Men".  Or event 
participation, e.g. "Character ABC was involved in Inferno".  Then 
it would be possible to do things such as get the entire membership 
history of a group and track key moments in characters' lives.  One 
needs a sophisticated eye for chronological detail to pull it off.  
As for temporal anomalies, I'm sure only a portion of them have even 
been identified.  They should be noted when discovered with an 
explantion of why the decision was made.

I'm not trying to knock the current system.  When the gap is closed, 
it can be MCP ver. 1.  It meets the literal defintion of the term 
"chronology" (a simple ordering of events).  I'm just saying there 
is a lot of potential for a MCP ver. 2 that chronologically catalogs 
a lot more and adds a lot of insight that no other comic database 
provides

--Ben

			*	*	*

Re: listings by book
Posted by Jimmy on March 06, 2002 at 16:56:31:
In Reply to: listings by book
posted by Ben Kennedy on February 27, 2002 at 12:16:14:

You might find the chronological graph I've made interesting:
http://medlem.tripodnet.nu/chronology.htm

> Is there a searchable index that lists characters per book / issue?

To put the graphs together I made a program that searches the html-
files from this site.

It's possible to search for a character name or a specific comic, 
and then view severeral characters' lists at the same time.

I've been thinking about making this program accesable from the 
internet but it will probably take some time before I realize it.

			*	*	*

Thunderbolts
Posted by BobMM on February 28, 2002 at 16:31:34:

The recent THUNDERBOLTS: JUSTICE LIKE LIGHTNING trade prints the 
early stories in a different order than the publication sequence. 
I swapped some posts with editor Tom Brevoort, and he confirms that 
the trade sequence is the intended continuity.

That means that for Baron Helmut Zemo (Citizen V), Songbird (Melissa 
Gold), Moonstone (Karla Sofen), Techno (P. Norbert Ebersol), MACH-1 
(Abner Jenkins) and Atlas (Erik Josten) the correct sequence is:

Thunderbolts #1
Incredible Hulk #449
Incredible Hulk #450 (Zemo only)
Tales of the Marvel Universe
Thunderbolts #2
Thunderbolts #3 (first half)
Spider-Man Team-Up #7
Thunderbolts #4 (second half)
Thunderbolts '97
Thunderbolts #5

