Satan in Tomb of Dracula designated as Mephisto in OHOTMUDE
Posted by John McDonagh on June 03, 2002 at 14:43:00:

  Yes Dracula's entry in OHOTMUDE established that Mephisto appeared as Satan 
in those issues of Tomb of Dracula, as oppossed to Daimon Hellstorm's father. (Mephisto seems to be considered a separate entity from Daimon Hellstorm's father, correct?)

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Re: Satan in Tomb of Dracula designated as Mephisto in OHOTMUDE
Posted by Matt on June 03, 2002 at 17:32:01:
In Reply to: Satan in Tomb of Dracula designated as Mephisto in OHOTMUDE
posted by John McDonagh on June 03, 2002 at 14:43:00:

What does OHOTMUDE stand for?

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Re: Satan in Tomb of Dracula designated as Mephisto in OHOTMUDE
Posted by Brian Cook on June 03, 2002 at 18:35:07:
In Reply to: Re: Satan in Tomb of Dracula designated as Mephisto in OHOTMUDE
posted by Matt on June 03, 2002 at 17:32:01:

OFFICIAL HANDBOOK OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE DELUXE EDITION

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Re: Satan in Tomb of Dracula designated as Mephisto in OHOTMUDE
Posted by Brian Cook on June 03, 2002 at 18:39:49:
In Reply to: Satan in Tomb of Dracula designated as Mephisto in OHOTMUDE
posted by John McDonagh on June 03, 2002 at 14:43:00:

Mephisto IS Daimon Hellstrom's father
He was posing as Satan

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Re: Satan in Tomb of Dracula designated as Mephisto in OHOTMUDE
Posted by Andy Holcombe on June 03, 2002 at 21:53:32:
In Reply to: Re: Satan in Tomb of Dracula designated as Mephisto in OHOTMUDE
posted by Brian Cook on June 03, 2002 at 18:39:49:

I thought that Hellstrom's father was either a demon he killed in the 
Hellstorm series or Dormammu by way of Satannish

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Re: Satan in Tomb of Dracula designated as Mephisto in OHOTMUDE
Posted by Don Campbell on June 04, 2002 at 12:28:04:
In Reply to: Re: Satan in Tomb of Dracula designated as Mephisto in OHOTMUDE
posted by Andy Holcombe on June 03, 2002 at 21:53:32:

The identity of Daimon Hellstrom's father has changed over time. At first, 
Daimon's father was simply Satan, one of a number of powerful demons who each 
ruled their own hell-dimensions. In one DEFENDERS story, this Satan claimed 
that he was the primary physical manifestation of humanity's capacity to do 
evil, an embodiment of the evil within the "collective (un)consciousness" of 
all mankind. This Satan claimed that all other demons, including Thog, 
Satannish and Mephisto, were just secondary manifestations of that same evil 
and thus were merely extensions of him (although they didn't know it 
themselves). This claim is dubious but there are several stories in which it 
was made clear that Satan and Mephisto and Satannish were all SEPARATE 
entities.

Later, in the HELLSTORM series, it was revealed that there was no true Satan, 
that the name was just an alias that powerful demons used to take advantage 
of mankind's belief in a single force of evil. It was revealed that Daimon's 
father was called "Satan" because he was the demon-lord who used that alias 
the most often. When Daimon decided to kill his father, he first had to 
discover his father's true name which turned out to be "Marduk Kurios." Daimon 
then went and killed his father, knowing that the demon was destined to be 
reborn...as Daimon's own son.

Finally, during the HELLCAT limited series, it was revealed that while 
"Satan" may have believed that Daimon was his son, his true father was 
Satannish who was himself merely a creation of Dormammu. It was also revealed 
that Daimon was aware of this and was an evil being who was loyal to his 
"grandfather." Like many readers, I am dissatisfied with this latest retcon 
and I am patiently waiting for somebody to write a story that will reverse 
this ridiculous retcon, which I find to be both implausible and inconsistent 
with previous stories. However, until such a story is written, we're stuck 
with its "revelations."

By the way, the only valid example of "Mephisto posing as Satan" that I know 
of involved the Ghost Rider. While the original MARVEL SPOTLIGHT stories had 
Johnny Blaze selling his soul to Satan (who then betrayed him and turned him 
into the Ghost Rider), later GHOST RIDER stories revealed that the demon 
Johnny summoned was really Mephisto (though I can't remember if the retcon 
showed that Johnny knew the demon was Mephisto all along or if he initially 
believed that he was dealing with "Satan").

As to whether the "Satan" who appeared in TOMB OF DRACULA was Mephisto or 
the demon who fathered Daimon, I would say that it could go either way. Things 
that are established as "factual" in the Official Handbook of the Marvel 
Universe are not always accurate so I've found it best to wait for some in-
continuity story to resolve the matter. If some story turns up in which 
Mephisto claims that he was the "Satan" who appeared in TOMB OF DRACULA, then 
I would accept it...unless he was LYING.
                      Don Campbell

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Re: Satan in Tomb of Dracula designated as Mephisto in OHOTMUDE
Posted by Andy Holcombe on June 06, 2002 at 16:03:12:
In Reply to: Re: Satan in Tomb of Dracula designated as Mephisto in OHOTMUDE
posted by Don Campbell on June 04, 2002 at 12:28:04:

That's what I thought.

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Help With Heroes Reborn
Posted by JonnoD on June 03, 2002 at 16:33:38:

Hey, I'm new to the board, someone from SpiderManHype refered me here cause 
he reckons you guys can solve my problem for me :D The thing is, back around 
the time of The Clone Saga I wasn't reading comics and subsequently I'm 
trying to catch up on everything I've missed. I was wondering if anyone could 
tell me what Heroes Reborn and Onslaught were. I've managed to piece together 
that loads of the Heroes were killed and transfered to Heroes Reborn but this 
brings up loads of questions for me such as what WAS Heroes Reborn, how did 
it effect normal continuity, were the Heroes brought back, etc etc. so if 
anyone could supply details or link me to a specific resource then It'd be 
much appreciated :D

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Re: Help With Heroes Reborn
Posted by Matthew Green on June 08, 2002 at 15:24:17:
In Reply to: Help With Heroes Reborn
posted by JonnoD on June 03, 2002 at 16:33:38:

Since no one has responded yet, I guess it's a job for Supe....nevermind.  
Anyway, Young Franklin Richards couldn't stand the fact that his parents were 
being killed so he created a pocket universe for them.  The Universe 
basically told their origins again but with a modern twist.  This is where 
my memory gets hazy as somehow the pocket universe crosses over with the 
Wildstorm universe which Jim Lee created.  Franklin with the help of a 
Celestial (which are big buggers that supposedly created all life on Earth) 
brings them back to the real universe.

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Re: Help With Heroes Reborn
Posted by garbonzo on June 09, 2002 at 23:52:33:
In Reply to: Re: Help With Heroes Reborn
posted by Matthew Green on June 08, 2002 at 15:24:17:

Many of the heroes (and villans) from this earth now reside on a counter 
earth which is in the same orbit as the Marvel universe earth, just on the 
opposite side of the sun.  Check out the Heroes Return:Doomsday one-shot for 
more details, along with current issues of the Thunderbolts

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ANCIENT ONE...ARBOGAST...AVRIL
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 04, 2002 at 10:56:52:

additional appearances...

ANCIENT ONE
-----------

DRSTR 169 (Between MCP entries ST 168 and DRSSTR 170)
     The Ancient Oness psychic summons is heard on the last page
DRSTR2 10 (Between MCP entries DRSTR2 4 and DRSTR2 11)
      Pgs 17-18


ARBOGAST, BAMBI
---------------

IM120,  IM 123 , IM 124   (Between MCP entries IM 118 and IM 125)
IM 148 (Between MCP entries IM 147 and IM 151)
IM 200 (Between MCP entries IM 199 and IM 201)
IM 237 (Between MCP entries IM 235 and IM 238)
IM 269 (Between MCP entries IM@ 11/3-BTS and IM 281)

AVRIL, YVETTE
-------------

Yvette Avrils earlier appearances (all prior to the FB in IM3 8) are:
IM 119, IM 137, IM 146, IM 147, IM 148, IM 149, IM 156, IM 172, IM 174

Okay Ive finished the As.  

And I have a couple of questions

FirstWhen making page references to a comic that has no page numbers, do 
you count the ad pages? Or just pages with panels?

Second  is there value to your project in noting the additional appearances 
as I have been doing? Should I continue into the Bs?

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Re: ANCIENT ONE...ARBOGAST...AVRIL
Posted by Russ Chappell on June 04, 2002 at 23:17:09:
In Reply to: ANCIENT ONE...ARBOGAST...AVRIL
posted by Arthur Stein on June 04, 2002 at 10:56:52:

> FirstWhen making page references to a comic that has no page numbers, do 
you count the ad pages? Or just pages with panels?

Pages with panels (iow, story pages).

> Second  is there value to your project in noting the additional 
appearances as I have been doing? Should I continue into the Bs?

By all means...

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MCP Bengal Appearance
Posted by Outwarrior on June 04, 2002 at 19:39:41:

The Bengal appears in Daredevil #258 and this is also his first appearence, 
not NW 7.  It also comes first in his timeline as he flasshes back to his 
childhood explaining how he got like that.

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A request for Russ if he has the time....
Posted by Eric J. Lawrence on June 05, 2002 at 20:38:21:

Hey Russ.

As a regular user, I would request that some more Message Archives be set 
up to keep the message board a wee bit more manageable.  I check nearly every 
day & the load times for my measly computer (no I.S.A.A.C. here) are growing 
longer.

Of course, priority should be given to summarizing comics, but if you have 
the time, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks for considering,
EJL

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Re: A request for Russ if he has the time....
Posted by Russ Chappell on June 06, 2002 at 22:39:43:
In Reply to: A request for Russ if he has the time....
posted by Eric J. Lawrence on June 05, 2002 at 20:38:21:

As it happens, we added an archive last week, and are about ready to add 
another one. 

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Dr. Victor VonDoom
Posted by Jed Perry on June 07, 2002 at 23:42:22:

How many times did Victor VonDoom appear in both the Fantastic Four and 
Iron Man? Plus, what issue numbers did these appearances occure in?

Thanks
Jed

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Re: Dr. Victor VonDoom
Posted by Russ Chappell on June 09, 2002 at 11:15:08:
In Reply to: Dr. Victor VonDoom
posted by Jed Perry on June 07, 2002 at 23:42:22:

Haven't spent much time exploring the site, eh? Fair enough. Click on the "D" 
link over to the left. Then click on the "DR. DOOM" link, or just scroll down 
through the alphabetical listings.

Good hunting.

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BALDER...BARON BLOOD II...BARON BRIMSTONE
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 08, 2002 at 14:48:10:

BALDER
    Additional appearances

JIM 119/2 pgs 2-3
JIM 120/2  Pg 1.   The panel is captioned The crew has been gathered..;   
As Balder is a member of the crew, it stands to reason that he is at the 
table.
    I believe that Balder is standing to the left of Hogun (3 left of Thor). 
(From Hoguns perspective, Balder is on his right side).
These appearance would fall between MCP entries T 111/2 and T 121/2

T 178 Pg 2 panel 1  (between MCP  entries T 177 & T 179)
T 294 Pg 16 panel 3 (between MCP  entries T 289 & T 301)
T 367  (between MCP  entries T 362 & T 368)
T 401  (between MCP  entries T 400 & T 402)

BARON BLOOD II / VICTOR STRANGE

The first appearance listed is DRSTR@ 3/4.
I think this is a typo and should be DRSTR@ 2/4

BARON BRIMSTONE
Another possible typo. In FF336 Reed identifies Baron Brimstone for us.(and 
I think the one whos still smoldering is Baron Brimstome  pg 15). But I do 
no see him in FF335 as indicated in the MCP entries.

#5

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Next appearance of Blade after Peter Parker # 8
Posted by Ronald on June 09, 2002 at 22:28:47:

Can anyone tell me the next appearance of Blade shortly after he was bitten 
by Morbius in Peter Parker #8 ?

Also been interested in Dracula siting after the Vampire Verses storyline 
in Dr. Strange perphaps a resurrection for Dracula, or something ?

Thanks...

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Re: Next appearance of Blade after Peter Parker # 8
Posted by Don Campbell on June 10, 2002 at 12:48:29:
In Reply to: Next appearance of Blade after Peter Parker # 8
posted by Ronald on June 09, 2002 at 22:28:47:

> Can anyone tell me the next appearance of Blade
> shortly after he was bitten by Morbius in
> Peter Parker #8 ?

I could be wrong but I believe that Blade's first appearance after being 
bitten by Morbius was in the BLADE ongoing series that went on sale in late 
1999...and was cancelled in early 2000 after only six issues. That short-
lived series was the first place where I saw the Blade character who had 
been "revamped" so that he was more in tune with the Blade from the Wesley 
Snipes movie. Since some of the events in that series were not quite in 
sync with the Marvel Universe, I'm not sure if purists consider it to be 
"in continuity."

> Also been interested in Dracula siting after the Vampire Verses storyline 
in Dr. Strange perphaps a resurrection for Dracula, or something?

While Dracula remained dead throughout all of the "Vampiric Verses" storyline, 
he did come back from the dead in the BLADE: THE VAMPIRE HUNTER series that 
debuted in 1994, picking up from where the cancelled NIGHTSTALKERS series 
ended. The mystery behind his resurrection was supposed to be revealed during 
the "Dracula Untombed" storyline that was to appear in issues #10-12...but 
the series was cancelled after issue #8 and that mystery was never explained.

I've seen Dracula in two storylines since then. The first was in the DRACULA: 
LORD OF THE UNDEAD limited series from a few years ago in which Dracula 
survived being exposed to the anti-vampire virus that his daughter Lilith 
had had created to kill him. The second was just a few months ago in the 
pages of the BLOODSTONE limited series where Dracula was hunting in Bosnia 
when he was easily staked and killed by Elsa Bloodstone.

                          Don Campbell

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Re: Next appearance of Blade after Peter Parker # 8
Posted by Ronald on June 10, 2002 at 19:10:48:
In Reply to: Re: Next appearance of Blade after Peter Parker # 8
posted by Don Campbell on June 10, 2002 at 12:48:29:

Thanks......
Does The Blade storyline envolve him coming out of a coma ?
thinking of getting those issues.......
Should I ?

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Re: Next appearance of Blade after Peter Parker # 8
Posted by Matt on June 10, 2002 at 19:42:11:
In Reply to: Re: Next appearance of Blade after Peter Parker # 8
posted by Ronald on June 10, 2002 at 19:10:48:

> Thanks......
> Does The Blade storyline envolve him coming out of a coma ?
> thinking of getting those issues.......
> Should I ?

If you'd like, but the story from that series really wasn't good. Also, it 
might be worth knowing that in his latest series from the MAX line, it's 
been establish that Blade was born in 1929, and that besides immunity from 
a vampire's bite he ages slower than normal humans. How's that for a shock!

> > > Also been interested in Dracula siting after the Vampire Verses 
storyline in Dr. Strange perphaps a resurrection for Dracula, or something?

> > While Dracula remained dead throughout all of the "Vampiric Verses" 
storyline, he did come back from the dead in the BLADE: THE VAMPIRE HUNTER 
series that debuted in 1994, picking up from where the cancelled 
NIGHTSTALKERS series ended. The mystery behind his resurrection was supposed 
to be revealed during the "Dracula Untombed" storyline that was to appear in 
issues #10-12...but the series was cancelled after issue #8 and that mystery 
was never explained.

> > I've seen Dracula in two storylines since then. The first was in the 
DRACULA: LORD OF THE UNDEAD limited series from a few years ago in which 
Dracula survived being exposed to the anti-vampire virus that his daughter 
Lilith had had created to kill him. The second was just a few months ago in 
the pages of the BLOODSTONE limited series where Dracula was hunting in 
Bosnia when he was easily staked and killed by Elsa Bloodstone.

Don't forget that he encountered Generation X in their 1998 annual, which 
took place after Dracula: Lord of the Undead.

			*	*	*

Re: Next appearance of Blade after Peter Parker # 8
Posted by Coral on June 12, 2002 at 01:15:56:
In Reply to: Re: Next appearance of Blade after Peter Parker # 8
posted by Matt on June 10, 2002 at 19:42:11:

> Does The Blade storyline involve him coming out of a coma ?
> thinking of getting those issues.......
> Should I ?

Don't!!!  This series was awful and I am pretty sure it is not in continuity.  
I think the last appearance of blade in continuity is Gambit 4 or Peter Parker 
8.  I am also pretty sure the Max series is out of countity.  I can give you 
some reasons, the main one being that he was supposedly dating the girl in the 
series at the same time in the real marvel uni. that he was dating Safron.  
Also, his supposed date of birth is way before the age he would be in the 
real marvel uni.(based on his relationships to people in London, mostly in 
Vampire tales 8,9 and Marvel Preview 3).  Then, he apparently doesn't have 
his sense of the supernatural, based on his story about his girlfriend and 
then being blindsided by those vampires.  However, it is a good series and 
enjoyable so far.  The backup stories are more enjoyable then the main 
character so far, though.  If you don't mind a recommendation, best Blade 
story I have ever read was out(?) of continuity.  Marvel Shadows and Light 
number 1.  This is the vol. 1 version(there are two #1's with this series)

 > While Dracula remained dead throughout all of the "Vampiric Verses" 
storyline, he did come back from the dead in the BLADE: THE VAMPIRE HUNTER 
series that debuted in 1994, picking up from where the cancelled NIGHTSTALKERS 
series ended. The mystery behind his resurrection was supposed to be revealed 
during the "Dracula Untombed" storyline that was to appear in issues #10-12...
but the series was cancelled after issue #8 and that mystery was never 
explained.

UM, the Blade series ended at 10(I have 9 & 10)  They did kinda explain what 
happened, but since it was in the letter col. I am not sure if it considered 
source material.  Would it?

> I've seen Dracula in two storylines since then. The first was in the 
DRACULA: LORD OF THE UNDEAD limited series from a few years ago in which 
Dracula survived being exposed to the anti-vampire virus that his daughter 
Lilith had had created to kill him. The second was just a few months ago in 
the pages of the BLOODSTONE limited series where Dracula was hunting in 
Bosnia when he was easily staked and killed by Elsa Bloodstone.

Also was a Spiderman story with him right after the end of the Blade series
(so 95,96).  Saw it in the comic shop and didn't pick it up.  I think it was 
an annual.

			*	*	*

Mystery of Dracula's Resurrection
Posted by Don Campbell on March 25, 2003 at 11:17:58:
In Reply to: Re: Next appearance of Blade after Peter Parker # 8
posted by Coral on June 12, 2002 at 01:15:56:

>  > While Dracula remained dead throughout all of the "Vampiric Verses" 
storyline, he did come back from the dead in the BLADE: THE VAMPIRE HUNTER 
series that debuted in 1994, picking up from where the cancelled NIGHTSTALKERS 
series ended. The mystery behind his resurrection was supposed to be revealed 
during the "Dracula Untombed" storyline that was to appear in issues #10-12...
but the series was cancelled after issue #8 and that mystery was never 
explained.

> UM, the Blade series ended at 10(I have 9 & 10)  They did kinda explain 
what happened, but since it was in the letter col. I am not sure if it 
considered source material.  Would it?

Two things to say. First, I apologize for posting the false information 
quoted above. My only excuse is that I truly didn't know that BLADE #9 & 10 
had ever been published. In fact, I only learned of them from your posting 
and now, nine months later, I've finally manged to obtain those issues and 
read them. I just wish that the series had held on for another two months so 
that the "Dracula Untombed" storyline could have been concluded properly.

Second, as far as the mystery of Dracula's resurrection is concerned, it may 
have suffered from a retcon. As you mentioned, the letter column in issue #10 
strongly hinted that, instead of being killed outright by the explosion in 
NIGHTSTALKERS #18, the bodies of Hannibal King and Frank Drake had somehow 
been fused into one vampiric form and that the consciousness of Dracula had 
somehow returned from limbo and occupied that body. Despite being a bit 
skimpy on the details, that explanation would probably remain unquestioned 
until this day...except for one thing. Blade's first appearance after BLADE: 
THE VAMPIRE HUNTER ended was in a BLADE one-shot, sometimes listed as BLADE: 
CRESCENT CITY BLUES. In that story, Blade encounters Hannibal King who 
explains that he survived that explosion by using his vampiric speed powers 
to carry himself and Frank Drake to safety but that Drake has been catatonic 
ever since. King next appeared in a two-parter in the JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY 
series that picked up the numbering from the then-cancelled THOR. As you can 
see, King's appearances in these stories pretty much contradicts the never-
published story of Dracula's resurrection. I suppose that some future story 
could reconcile these stories but until that happens the truth about Dracula's 
resurrection must remain a mystery.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

BATTLEAXE...BATTLESTAR...BEEF
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 12, 2002 at 13:27:45:

Additional sightings...
BATTLEAXE/
   TG 33   (before MCP entry CA 389)

BATTLESTAR/LEMAR HOSKINS
   CA 327(pg 1-4),  CA 333(pg 14),  CA 334  
  (all between MCP entries CA 381/2-FB and CA 335 )

BEEF/
   UX 281   (after MCP entry NW 10)

			*	*	*

Guardians of the Galaxy
Posted by Wildone on June 13, 2002 at 07:34:03:

Please help me, I know a few months ago the Guardians appeared back in this 
Marvel timeline, on the last 2 pages of a book, and I dont know which it was. 
Can anyone tell me which one so I cam go back and see what happened. Thanks

			*	*	*

Re: Guardians of the Galaxy
Posted by Quas on June 17, 2002 at 09:03:26:
In Reply to: =Guardians of the Galaxy
posted by Wildone on June 13, 2002 at 07:34:03:

You're probably thinking of Avengers Forever #12

			*	*	*

Re: Guardians of the Galaxy
Posted by Andy Holcombe on June 18, 2002 at 21:17:28:
In Reply to: Re: Guardians of the Galaxy
posted by Quas on June 17, 2002 at 09:03:26:

> You're probably thinking of Avengers Forever #12

Or possibly Paradise X.  I guess they would have first appeared in the 0 
issue.  Anyways, Paradise X is their most recent appearance even if it's not 
in the current timeline.

			*	*	*

I think it was Paradise X #0 but it's not the Prime Marvel Timeline.
Posted by Zevad on June 22, 2002 at 00:09:19:
In Reply to: Guardians of the Galaxy
posted by Wildone on June 13, 2002 at 07:34:03:

It contradicts a lot of stuff and by some is no longer considered even an 
alternate future. Some consider it split off at the beginning of time with 
so many differences and also I feel it takes away from the mystery of the 
marvel universe by giving everything a definitive answer. I see it as an 
alternate universe but not the prime marvel universe. 

			*	*	*

Thing: Icons
Posted by garbonzo on June 13, 2002 at 22:28:35:

So, I just finished reading the first issue of The Thing, from the Icons 
series.  Has anyone figured out where this fits into continuity?  I recognize  
4 Freedms plaza (as opposed to the Baxter Building), but other than that I am 
stumped.  When was Ben Grim able to change at will?

Or, is this another out of continuity story like Rogue???

Garbonzo

			*	*	*

Re: Thing: Icons
Posted by Andy Holcombe on June 14, 2002 at 10:31:07:
In Reply to: Thing: Icons
posted by garbonzo on June 13, 2002 at 22:28:35:

Toward the end of the first series, Ben had a small device that allowed him 
to transform between Ben Grimm and the Thing.

			*	*	*

Re: Thing: Icons
Posted by Jhaeman on June 14, 2002 at 13:18:05:
In Reply to: Re: Thing: Icons
posted by Andy Holcombe on June 14, 2002 at 10:31:07:

Does Marvel still have a continuity guru ala Peter Sanderson or Mark 
Gruenwald?  If so, whomever it is should devise a symbol or other method of 
distinguishing continuity from non-continuity comics...It would make our job, 
and following certain characters, much easier.  Perhaps a letter-writing 
campaign?

			*	*	*

Re: Thing: Icons
Posted by Scott Hutchins on June 19, 2002 at 19:37:28:
In Reply to: Thing: Icons
posted by garbonzo on June 13, 2002 at 22:28:35:

> When was Ben Grim able to change at will?


In the Hanna-Barbera TV cartoon, but then he was a teenager, and of course 
that's not in continuity.  "Thing ring, do your thing!"

			*	*	*

Has J. Jonah Jameson demonstrated HATERED for other heroes beside Spidey?
Posted by Zevad on June 14, 2002 at 17:28:41:

I've been noticing a trend lately and Brian Michael Bendis is doing it in 
his titles (Daredevil and Alias) that Jonah is written like an unreedemable 
@$$hole. That hates ALL SUPERHEROES> QUOTE "LEt those slimey superheroes 
get what they deserve." Is their prior work to back this up? Or is this 
something that Bendis is starting? I recall Jonah being a jerk and grouchy 
at times. But he really cares for people and secretly paid for Peter's 
defense during the Clone saga. Can anyone help?

			*	*	*

Re: Has J. Jonah Jameson demonstrated HATERED for other heroes beside Spidey?
Posted by Matt on June 14, 2002 at 18:42:33:
In Reply to: Has J. Jonah Jameson demonstrated HATERED for other heroes beside 
Spidey?
posted by Zevad on June 14, 2002 at 17:28:41:

Jameson believes that most superheroes, such as Spider-Man and Daredevil, 
are glory-seeking showoffs who fight crime for their own purposes, and that 
they wear masks to cover up whatever they have to hide. He feels the same way 
about the X-Men, but does not hold any anti-mutant setiment towards them.

The only superhero Jameson respects appears to be Captain America, mainly 
because he represents and fights the very ideals of the common man, much in 
the way Jameson does. 

With that into consideration, I was wondering why Cap has never sat down with 
Jameson and explain to him how Spidey and the others aren't all that bad?

			*	*	*

Re: Has J. Jonah Jameson demonstrated HATERED for other heroes beside Spidey?
Posted by xxAPCxx on June 16, 2002 at 19:52:28:
In Reply to: Re: Has J. Jonah Jameson demonstrated HATERED for other heroes 
beside Spidey?
posted by Matt on June 14, 2002 at 18:42:33:

Yea he has.  Read the novel Spider-Man: Wanted Dead or Alive.  Jameson shows 
that he likes Cap and the Avengers but hates Spidey Daredevil and all them.

			*	*	*

Re: Has J. Jonah Jameson demonstrated HATERED for other heroes beside Spidey?
Posted by Stefan Anundi on February 21, 2003 at 05:09:33:
In Reply to: Re: Has J. Jonah Jameson demonstrated HATERED for other heroes 
beside Spidey?
posted by Matt on June 14, 2002 at 18:42:33:

One thing that might be interesting in this discussion is an Amazing 
Spiderman (vol. 1) issue where J Jonah Jameson explains why he doesn't like 
Spider-Man. ASM (vol. 1) #10. :-)

			*	*	*

Re: Has J. Jonah Jameson demonstrated HATERED for other heroes beside Spidey?
Posted by DavidSpofforth on June 22, 2002 at 07:01:04:
In Reply to: Has J. Jonah Jameson demonstrated HATERED for other heroes beside 
Spidey?
posted by Zevad on June 14, 2002 at 17:28:41:

Going way back here, but JJJ wanted to see the FF run out of town at the time 
of the Thing/Hulk battle in 112

			*	*	*

Spider-Man: Blue #2 -- Spidey's faulty memory
Posted by Paul Bourcier on June 14, 2002 at 21:52:39:

After reading Spider-Man: Blue #2, I was ready to dismiss it as a total non-
canon retcon, seeing that Spidey is seen fighting the Rhino (as originally 
seen in ASM 43), then, that night, meeting Mary Jane for the first time (as 
originally seen in ASM 42). Not only are the events in reverse chronological 
order, but MJ wears a totally different outfit.  Then I took note that the 
story is a retrospective narrative -- Peter Parker is looking back at this 
part of his life.  Obviously, he's not remembering things as they actually 
happened (okay, he got the Rhino and MJ encounters reversed, but how could 
he forget what MJ wore?).  The question is: is anything from SM:B 2 
salvageable for inclusion in the MCP?  How about the first scene with the 
newspaper vendor, never before seen?  Or the scene in the school lab with 
Gwen and Flash?  If Peter is misremembering things, are these scenes to be 
dismissed?

			*	*	*

Have Punisher and Elektra ever met each other?
Posted by Zevad on June 14, 2002 at 22:11:43:

I noticed a post by a Miken Ayers and I'm kind of curious. Have Frank Castle 
and Elektra ever met each other before? And have they been at opposite ends 
forced to fight each other? If not someone should suggest that for a limited 
series. Hell I'd buy it. 

			*	*	*

Re: Have Punisher and Elektra ever met each other?
Posted by Brian Cook on June 15, 2002 at 00:45:24:
In Reply to: Have Punisher and Elektra ever met each other?
posted by Zevad on June 14, 2002 at 22:11:43:

They have never faced each other...

			*	*	*

Iron Man in WWBN 42-43
Posted by Raymond Bothoms on June 15, 2002 at 00:16:17:

I informed you over two years ago that your sequence was incorrect, but your 
list still does not reflect the change.  In your list WWBN 42-43 appear 
before Av 150.  I'm sure that you base that upon The Official Marvel Index 
to the Avengers #3.  It's wrong.  If you'd read the opening pages of Werewolf 
By Night 42, you'd find that Iron Man is on his way back to Stark 
International after his encounter with Kraken (IM 94).  In IM 95, we find 
that he has returned from his battle with Kraken and is at that point 
involved with testing his armor.  So the proper sequence should be IM 93, 
IM 94, WWBN 42, WWBN 43, IM 95, IM 96, IM 97...

			*	*	*

Darkhawk III
Posted by Outwarrior on June 15, 2002 at 14:44:11:

Shouldn't Chris Powell be Darkhawk III?  During the "Quest: To Save the 
Multiverse" series it explains how the 5 Darkhawk amulets were made.  Now 
all of the amulets were used long before Chris Powell was even born.  Then 
during the "Life and Death" series St. Johnny admits to have used the amulet.  
Wouldn't that make Chris the 3rd user?

			*	*	*

Re: Darkhawk III
Posted by Andy Holcombe on June 15, 2002 at 20:41:49:
In Reply to: Darkhawk III
posted by Outwarrior on June 15, 2002 at 14:44:11:

>Then during the "Life and Death" series St. Johnny admits to have used the 
amulet.  Wouldn't that make Chris the 3rd user?

Only if the others went by the name of Darkhawk.

			*	*	*

Re: Darkhawk III
Posted by Outwarrior on June 16, 2002 at 10:42:17:
In Reply to: Re: Darkhawk III
posted by Andy Holcombe on June 15, 2002 at 20:41:49:

> Only if the others went by the name of Darkhawk.

Anyone who uses it does.  The amulet itself is called the Darkhawk Amulet 
so anyone who uses it becomes The Darkhawk.  Atleast that's what I was under 
the impression of.

			*	*	*

Re: Darkhawk III
Posted by Andy Holcombe on June 17, 2002 at 08:15:04:
In Reply to: Re: Darkhawk III
posted by Outwarrior on June 16, 2002 at 10:42:17:

> Anyone who uses it does.  The amulet itself is called the Darkhawk Amulet 
so anyone who uses it becomes The Darkhawk.

The person using the amulet could go by Bubba if he/she wanted to.  As you 
said, the amulet is the Darkhawk amulet.  It's not like whoever uses it joins 
a society or something.

			*	*	*

BELL...BENTLEY...BEVATRON
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 16, 2002 at 09:28:44:

BELL, HERBERT
   BG 1 (pg 16-18)    (before MCP entry BG2)
   BG 3 (pgs 7, 10, 15) and BG 4 (pgs 7, 11)   (after MCP entry BG2)

BENTLEY, VICTORIA
   M/PRM 10 (pg 17, panel 3)   (between MCP entries DRSTR 178 and DRSTR2 36)
   	Although not named in the issue, there are no other mystically 
oriented women in Dr. Stranges life at this time other than Clea, who is 
shown in the next panel. 
   	The lady very strongly resembles Victoria Bentley as last seen in 
DRSTR 178, particularly in hair color and style.
   	The dress appears to be a favorite (many issues but almost the same 
pose and dress as seen in ST 173 pg 9 panel 1). 
   	The background shows that the scene is set in a medieval castle 
setting (stone walls, suit of armor) which fits as Miss Bentley not only 
lives in a castle herself outside London, but at this point in time, as a 
neighbor of Dane Whitman (The Black Knight), she is  keeping the place   
(i.e. his castle)    in order during his absence .  (DRSTR2 36 Pg 23 
pn 2 )

BEVATRON/
   UX 281   (after MCP entry NW 10)

			*	*	*

Mojo
Posted by Ben Everett on June 16, 2002 at 15:58:50:

Mojo is listed as appearing in Marvel Comics Presents issue 22 story number 3. 
I have looked through this issue inside and out and I can find no trace of him. 
Is this a mistake on behalf of the MCP or am I not looking hard enough?

			*	*	*

Re: Mojo
Posted by Matt on June 16, 2002 at 18:01:53:
In Reply to: Mojo
posted by Ben Everett on June 16, 2002 at 15:58:50:

I think it was MCP 85, not 22

			*	*	*

Spider-Man, Storm and Power Man comic
Posted by Paul Bourcier on June 16, 2002 at 18:44:17:

To pick up an old thread about free "public service" comics published by 
Marvel...

In 1982, Marvel published an anti-smoking comic in collaboration with the 
American Cancer Society.  The comic, titled "Spider-Man, Storm and Power Man," 
pitted the trio against a lame villain named Smokescreen.  It took place over 
the course of four days at the end of a school year (early June).  There is 
nothing about the story that is blatantly non-canon (although Storm was 
rendered unconscious for two days by Smokescreen!), but it is not mentioned 
in before-and-after appearances of Storm and Spidey in any Official Marvel 
Index.  Should it be canon?

If so, I would place it between pages of A@10 in Storm's chronology and 
between M/TU 107 and the end of ASM 218 in Spidey's chronology.  I don't 
know enough about temporal placement of Luke Cage's stories to place it.

Comments?

Paul

			*	*	*

Set Appearances you may wish to add
Posted by John Mc Donagh on June 18, 2002 at 16:18:27:

Yes, thank you for doing an entry on Set, but some missed appearances:

Silver Surfer Annual#2/7, Thor Annual#10 tell the origin of Set, should go 
first

Iron Man Annual#10 has a back-up showing Set's battle with Atum millions of 
years later destroying the dinosaurs.

Marvel Two-In One#66 has Set appearing on panel, battling the Scarlet Witch 
on the astral plane.

Marvel Team-Up Annual#5 detailed the destruction of the Serpent Crown.

			*	*	*

(New) X-Men?
Posted by Sean Curtin on June 18, 2002 at 22:20:08:

Will the MCP's entries for X-MEN vol. 2 #114-onwards use a new acronym to 
reflect the title's change to NEW X-MEN?

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: (New) X-Men?
Posted by Russ Chappell on June 19, 2002 at 16:58:33:
In Reply to: (New) X-Men?
posted by Sean Curtin on June 18, 2002 at 22:20:08:

Not for the time being. One assumes that at some point, they would stop 
being "new".

			*	*	*

Re: (New) X-Men?
Posted by Sean Curtin on July 02, 2002 at 20:44:16:
In Reply to: Re: (New) X-Men?
posted by Russ Chappell on June 19, 2002 at 16:58:33:

>  One assumes that at some point, they would stop being "new".

...what, like the New Warriors did? :P

Seriously, it's in the actual title and the indicia; if CAPTAIN AMERICA & THE 
FALCON is listed as such, NXM ought to be as well.

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: (New) X-Men?
Posted by Jeph! on July 03, 2002 at 19:04:39:
In Reply to: Re: (New) X-Men?
posted by Sean Curtin on July 02, 2002 at 20:44:16:

I think eventually Russ will put the title "New X-Men" in the Key, but I 
think it would still direct everyone to an abbreviation of "X".  I don't 
think he's going to change the abbreviation to "NX" -- he didn't change 
the abbreviation when "Defenders v1" became "the New Defenders", and that 
was in the indicia too...

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Death in War Is Hell
Posted by John Mc Donagh on June 19, 2002 at 14:07:03:

http://pimpf.ovh.org/actus/autres/artwar2.htm has a little on it, even 
reproducing the cover to War Is Hell#15.

			*	*	*

Re: Death in War Is Hell
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on June 20, 2002 at 21:19:53:
In Reply to: Death in War Is Hell
posted by John Mc Donagh on June 19, 2002 at 14:07:03:

Thanks for the link; I enjoyed those scans.

Just had to tell you that your subject header is the funniest thing I've 
read in a while (and probably unintentionally, which makes it funnier).

- SK, odd sense of humor

			*	*	*

Just out of curiosity...
Posted by Quas on June 22, 2002 at 10:19:40:
In Reply to: Re: Death in War Is Hell
posted by StAkAr Karnak on June 20, 2002 at 21:19:53:

a question directed at you, StAkAr Karnak --

Do you read French or did you have the contents of that page translated?

			*	*	*

Re: Just out of curiosity...
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on June 22, 2002 at 18:52:48:
In Reply to: Just out of curiosity...
posted by Quas on June 22, 2002 at 10:19:40:

22 juin 2002, spake d'"Quas":

Non, je ne parle pas franais. J'ai couru le URL par Babelfish, car j'ai 
fait cette rponse, mais elle a seulement traduit la moiti de la page. J'ai 
juste pens l'en-tte lui-mme tais drle. Il y a beaucoup de la mort dans 
la guerre, qui, je suppose, serait "enfer".

- SK

			*	*	*

Secret Empire &amp; TTA
Posted by Thomas Bradford on June 19, 2002 at 22:31:20:

Under what heading do you have the various repeating members of the Scret 
Empire/ (Number One, Number Two, etc.)

Also, the Seaweed Man first appears in TTA #71 before going on to TTA #72. 
(I'm quite surprised you missed this one, he's actually on the cover of TTA 
#71.)

--Tom Bradford

			*	*	*

She-Hulk thoughts...
Posted by Nathanael Nerode on June 20, 2002 at 21:37:05:

Millie Collins, a.k.a. Millie the Model, is a recurring character (as well 
as appearing elsewhere)... so she should be in the chronology, right?  Oh, 
but she's in the gap.

But editors Renee Witterstaedter and Bobbie Chase appear in Sensational 
She-Hulk.  Don't they qualify as Marvel Universe characters who deserve 
chronologies? ;-)  John Byrne already has a chronology...  I think he 
deserves at least a 'behind the scenes' credit for the issues where Shulkie 
keeps telling him to change the artwork in various ways (and lo and behold, 
he does), or the one where she yells "How dare you, Byrne!".  Dontcha 
think? ;-) (-;

Seriously, is there a cutoff line, or is it canon no matter how silly it is?

			*	*	*

Re: She-Hulk thoughts...
Posted by Russ Chappell on June 20, 2002 at 22:28:48:
In Reply to: She-Hulk thoughts...
posted by Nathanael Nerode on June 20, 2002 at 21:37:05:

I think the John Byrne referenced in She-Hulk is the *real* John Byrne, not 
a Marvel Universe character named John Byrne.

			*	*	*

Ultraverse
Posted by Andy Holcombe on June 21, 2002 at 00:52:58:

I know this is old business, but I just recieved this from a listserv I'm 
on and thought I'd pass it along.

On August 8, 1999, Kurt Busiek posted on the Avengers message board at 
ComicBoards.com, "While I like some of the Ultraverse characters, I think 
that if they're going to appear, they should be written by their creators."

"And even if I felt otherwise, I wouldn't use any of them until and unless 
the financial obligations Marvel contractually has toward the Ultraverse 
creators were met."

On Monday, May 8, 2000, someone asked, "...would you ever consider using 
Ultraforce in an issue of Avengers?"

Kurt Busiek replied:

"Probably not -- there are some financial concerns over those characters 
that I'd like to see resolved before I was willing to use them. It seems 
that the profit participation deals made with the Ultraverse creators haven't 
been honored -- and whether this is a problem with the guys who used to own 
Malibu or with the sale to Marvel, I don't know, but I wouldn't want to use, 
say, Prime if it meant that Gerry Jones was getting stiffed on monies he 
should be paid for the character."

On May 30, 2000, someone asked, "Did the stuff with the Black Knight, Sersi, 
Sienna Blaze and Juggernaut and the Infinity Gems going to the Ultraverse 
happen in continuity or not?"

Kurt replied, "I don't see any reason it shouldn't have..."

On October 15, 2000, Kurt was again asked by someone if he would use 
Ultraverse characters in Avengers. He replied, "I don't really want to 
use any of the Ultraverse characters. Even if I did, I wouldn't, as long 
as the creators of those characters feel that they haven't been treated 
fairly -- or contractually -- over the use of the characters."

He added, "But in any case, I'd far rather see more STRANGERS and NIGHT 
MAN stories from Steve Englehart than from me..."

On December 20, 2001, someone asked, "Are the Ultraverse books, specifically 
Ultraverse Avengers, in continuity?"

Avengers editor and Marvel senior editor Tom Brevoort replied, "Until some 
story somewhere specifically places them outside of continuity, yes."

			*	*	*
BIRD MAN...BLACK ABBOTT...BLACK KNIGHT V
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 21, 2002 at 14:31:14:

BIRD MAN/HENRY HAWK 
   DD158-FB (pg 14 panel 1)  (After MCP entry IM 116)
   This scene in the morgue is the only confirmation that Bird Man, Ape Man, 
and Cat Man (the original Unholy Trio) actually perished in the blast in IM 
116.  Deathstalker identifies them as the Unholy Trio (first named in DD39) 
not as the Ani-men (coined by Count Nefaria in UX95) so the inference is 
that Frog Man (who was also in IM116 but was not a member of the Unholy Trio) 
is NOT one of the bodies. Therefore the bodies are Bird Man, Ape Man, and 
Cat Man .
     (Ape Man and Cat Man would also have DD158-FB as their last entries)

BLACK ABBOT/
M/TU 148-FB (pgs 8-9)
M/TU 146-BTS (Black Abbot is mind controlling his apostles)
M/TU 147 (pg 23)
M/TU 148   
    (all before MCP entry CA 394-BTS, which is a report of his death) 

BLACK KNIGHT V/DANE WHITMAN
 AF 39  (mid A 272     A 272, AF 39, A 272)  

BLACK KNIGHT V STATUE
  DRSTR2 35  pg 1-5, DRSTR2 36 pg 11,30  (both between DRSTR2 29 and DRSTR2 37)

#8

			*	*	*

Canon or non-canon
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 21, 2002 at 15:17:07:

Do you have any kind of list of issues and/or stories that you have already 
determined are not canon?

The reason I ask...

Both Attuma and Andromeda are listed as IM@ 10/2. However, the Andromeda 
story is the THIRD feature in the annual so my guess was that the second 
feature was determined to be non-canon. (It's about some villains in a 
villain bar yakking it up and then Iron man arrives and they all leave). 

That would be fine except that the Crimson Dynamo ALSO is listed as being 
in IM@ 10/2 (and he IS one of the villains that spreaks in the 2nd feature); 
but NONE of the many other recognizable villains are listed in MCP. Nor is 
Iron man's appearence noted (more weight to the non-canon opinion).

So I cannot tell if IM@10/2 is non-canon and Crimson Dynamo snuck in, or if 
it IS canon and the rest of the villains were missed and the Andromeda/Attuma 
notations erroneously entered.

I do not want to waste time examining non-canon issues. I also do not want to 
waste other folks time asking innumerable questions about whether specific 
issues are canon or not (possibly covered in archived messages). So... is 
there a 'master list' somewhere of issues deemed to be out of continuity or 
non-canon? 

			*	*	*

Re: Canon or non-canon
Posted by Russ Chappell on June 21, 2002 at 22:20:29:
In Reply to: Canon or non-canon
posted by Arthur Stein on June 21, 2002 at 15:17:07:

> Both Attuma and Andromeda are listed as IM@ 10/2.
> However, the Andromeda story is the THIRD feature in the annual so my 
guess was that the second feature was determined to be non-canon. (It's about 
some villains in a villain bar yakking it up and then Iron man arrives and 
they all leave). 

It's just a typo. It should read IM@ 10/3. Non-canon stories are counted when 
determining the number after the slash.

> That would be fine except that the Crimson Dynamo ALSO is listed as being 
in IM@ 10/2 (and he IS one of the villains that spreaks in the 2nd feature); 
but NONE of the many other recognizable villains are listed in MCP. Nor is 
Iron man's appearence noted (more weight to the non-canon opinion).

Best guess is that for some reason, we weren't referencing the second story 
in IM@ 10, and Crimson Dynamo was brought in by the most recent Avengers 
Index (note the before & after appearances for IM@ 10/2). We just need to go 
back to the annual and include the second story.

			*	*	*

but is there a non-canon list?
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 22, 2002 at 12:00:32:
In Reply to: Re: Canon or non-canon
posted by Russ Chappell on June 21, 2002 at 22:20:29:

The Iron Man stuff was just an example. 

The main question was...  is there any kind of list of issues/features already 
declared 'non-canon'?

			*	*	*

Re: but is there a non-canon list?
Posted by Russ Chappell on June 22, 2002 at 14:39:13:
In Reply to: but is there a non-canon list?
posted by Arthur Stein on June 22, 2002 at 12:00:32:

Not here. You're welcome to contribute one, if you'd like.

			*	*	*

The beta non-canon list
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on June 23, 2002 at 07:12:37:
In Reply to: Re: but is there a non-canon list?
posted by Russ Chappell on June 22, 2002 at 14:39:13:

Arthur Stein spake:

> is there any kind of list of issues/features already declared 'non-canon'?

In reply, our man Russ Chappell said:

> Not here. You're welcome to contribute one, if you'd like.

Off the top of my head, there's:
Daredevil: Man Without Fear
Earth X #0, 1/2, 1-12, X
Paradise X #0-2
Paradise X: Heralds #1-3
Paradise X: Xen
Universe X #0-12, X
Universe X: Beasts
Universe X: Cap
Universe X: Iron Men
Universe X: Spidey

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: The beta non-canon list
Posted by Peter Fabricius on June 23, 2002 at 22:55:01:
In Reply to: The beta non-canon list
posted by StAkAr Karnak on June 23, 2002 at 07:12:37:

And from my memory

The Adventures of Captain America #1-4
The Supernaturals #1-4
Ruins #1-2

Peter

			*	*	*

Re: The beta non-canon list
Posted by Andy Holcombe on June 24, 2002 at 02:11:57:
In Reply to: Re: The beta non-canon list
posted by Peter Fabricius on June 23, 2002 at 22:55:01:

> The Adventures of Captain America #1-4

This one is non-canon?  Could you please elaborate on your reasoning?  I am 
woefully underexposed to the "canon" World War 2 Marvel stories.

			*	*	*

Re: The beta non-canon list
Posted by Peter Fabricius on June 24, 2002 at 11:59:39:
In Reply to: Re: The beta non-canon list
posted by Andy Holcombe on June 24, 2002 at 02:11:57:

I was certain I had just read it, but a search with Google can't find it.

So lets just say I can't trust my memory. Must be getting old (40 next month), 
or just too early (before 6 am local time)

I certainly don't mind considering it to be canon.

Peter

			*	*	*

Re: The beta non-canon list
Posted by Andy Holcombe on June 24, 2002 at 13:18:10:
In Reply to: Re: The beta non-canon list
posted by Peter Fabricius on June 24, 2002 at 11:59:39:

All I know is it presents a very detailed year-one approach to Captain 
America, certainly different from the origianl Golden Age stories, but I 
don't know how it works with the "real" Captain America origin, especially 
in regards to his first meeting with the Red Skull.

			*	*	*

Re: The beta non-canon list
Posted by Don Campbell on June 25, 2002 at 10:22:18:
In Reply to: Re: The beta non-canon list
posted by Andy Holcombe on June 24, 2002 at 13:18:10:

In my opinion, the events depicted in the Adventures of Captain America 
Limited Series should not be considered to be "in continuity" because this 
retelling of the origin of Captain America is too inconsistent with previous 
retellings.

First, several of the characters are portrayed differently than they were in 
earlier stories.  For example, General Phillips no longer has the white 
mustache that he has had in ALL his other appearances, and Doctor Erskine is 
now balding and speaks with a strong accent.

Second, Erskine's assistant, Doctor Anderson, is supposedly killed by the 
Red Skull's assassins in March of 1941---even though Giant-Size Invaders #1 
shows him alive in late December of that year.

Third, Steve Rogers is shown undergoing the experimental process on March 10, 
1941---whereas an earlier story (Captain America #255) states that by March 
of 1941 Rogers had been in "a special training program (with his new body) 
for three months" before General Phillips told him that he was to be a 
special agent, Captain America, who was intended to be the opposite of the 
Nazi special agent, the Red Skull.

Third, Steve Rogers supposedly joined the US Army in March of 1941 so that he 
could be hidden from the Red Skull's agents---whereas earlier stories state 
that the army gave him a "cover identity" (as Private Rogers) that would 
enable him to move about in secret but still be close by for special 
missions.

Fourth, the Adventures of Captain America adds several new characters to 
Cap's origin. The three most notable "additions" are Lieutenant Colonel 
James Fletcher, Project: Rebirth's security chief who was "The American 
Eagle" in World War One; Lieutenant Cynthia "Cindy" Glass, Steve's love 
interest who turns out to be Agent X, the Red Skull's spy within Project: 
Rebirth; and Harmon Furmintz, a genius who was a candidate for the super-
soldier experiment but was rejected because he was a hemophiliac. Furmintz 
is the only character who has appeared in any Marvel Universe story but the 
info provided in New Warriors #4 does not substantiate anything from the 
limited series except the "fact" that he was one of the candidates.

Lastly, The Adventures of Captain America completely changes the way in 
which Captain America first encountered the Red Skull. I prefer the earlier 
version from Tales of Suspense #65-66, especially since these issues 
incorporate the first 1940's Red Skull story. Tales of Suspense #65 retells 
that first story in which the Red Skull turns out to be "John Moxon" while 
Tales of Suspense #66 reveals that Cap suspected that Moxon wasn't the real 
Red Skull because Cap felt that he caught Moxon too easily based on what he 
"had heard about (the Skull's) fighting prowess". This clearly shows that 
Cap had never met any Red Skull, real or fake, before TOS #65.

Basically, you can't consider the Adventures of Captain America to be canon 
unless you're willing to ignore the Tales of Suspense stories and the 1940's 
Captain America story upon which they were based. I choose to stay with the 
older version of Cap's origin.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: The beta non-canon list
Posted by Jhaeman on July 02, 2002 at 12:42:18:
In Reply to: Re: The beta non-canon list
posted by Don Campbell on June 25, 2002 at 10:22:18:

As we're discussing continuity in terms of Captain America, is "Captain 
America: Sentinel of Liberty" canon or not?  I don't have it, but I'm 
probably going to get it...

			*	*	*

Re: The beta non-canon list
Posted by Don Campbell on July 04, 2002 at 13:49:40:
In Reply to: Re: The beta non-canon list
posted by Jhaeman on July 02, 2002 at 12:42:18:

I believe that most of "Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty" is considered 
to be canon. One of the later issues is a sort of What If? story but all the 
rest are meant to be "in continuity." While some of the stories had some 
continuity errors, they were mostly "good" (or at least "not bad"). One of 
my favourites is a two-parter by Roger Stern that revealed that the Captain 
America uniform was inspired by a drawing that Steve Rogers made of a 
costume that his 1770's ancestor, Captain Steven Rogers, ONCE wore to 
infiltrate a meeting of pro-British traitors. Sadly, the writer of "X-Men: 
Hellfire Club" took this to mean that Captain Rogers wore the costume as 
"Captain America" throughout the rest of the war, something that I'm sure 
that Roger Stern never intended. Fortunately, this "Captain America of the 
1770s" idea has never been mentioned anywhere else and the Hellfire Club 
story is not so much an "objective flashback" as it is someone telling a 
story about one of Sebastian Shaw's ancestors so it seems probable that 
the storyteller may have mixed some legends in with the basic facts.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: The beta non-canon list
Posted by Andy Holcombe on June 24, 2002 at 02:39:33:
In Reply to: The beta non-canon list
posted by StAkAr Karnak on June 23, 2002 at 07:12:37:

We can add

Rogue (vol 2)
Ultimate Spider-Man
Ultimate X-Men
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up
The Ultimates
Ultimate Spider-Man Special
Spider-Man 2099
Ravage 2099
Doom 2099 (except for a few issues in the "present")
Punisher 2099
X-Men 2099
Ghost Rider 2099
Hulk 2099
2099 Unlimited
2099 A.D.
2099 A.D. Apocalypse
2099 A.D. Genesis
Fantastic Four 2099
X-Nation 2099
Spider-Man 2099 Annual
Spider-Man 2099 Special
X-Men 2099 Special
X-Men 2099 Oasis
2099: World of Tomorrow
2099: Manifest Destiny
Spider-Girl
A-Next
J2
Wild Thing (vol 2)
Fantastic Five
What If . . . ? (vol. 1-3) (Other than the Watcher?)
Nikki Doyle, Wild Thing
Exiles
The Megalomaniacal Spider-ManBanner
Cage (vol 2)
Blade (current series, whatever volume number that is)
Blade: Sins of the Father
Blade 2: Movie Adaptation
Captain America: Movie Adaptation
Punisher: Movie Adaptation
Spider-Man: Movie Adaptation
Fury
U.S. War Machine
X-Men: Movie Adaptation
X-Men: Magneto Movie Prequel
X-Men: Wolverine Movie Prequel
X-Men: Rogue Movie Prequel
Iron Man 2020
Machine Man 2020

			*	*	*

Re: The beta non-canon list
Posted by Paul O'Brien on June 25, 2002 at 06:29:49:
In Reply to: Re: The beta non-canon list
posted by Andy Holcombe on June 24, 2002 at 02:39:33:

> We can add

> Blade (current series, whatever volume number that is)

What's objectionable about the current series?  It's rubbish, I know, but 
I don't see any glaring continuity problems.

			*	*	*

Re: The beta non-canon list
Posted by Peter Fabricius on June 25, 2002 at 11:41:04:
In Reply to: Re: The beta non-canon list
posted by Paul O'Brien on June 25, 2002 at 06:29:49:

The only thing I can think of is that Blade states he was born in 1929

Peter

			*	*	*

Current Blade series
Posted by Andy Holcombe on June 25, 2002 at 19:22:24:
In Reply to: Re: The beta non-canon list
posted by Paul O'Brien on June 25, 2002 at 06:29:49:

The half-vampire thing.  I know they made him a vampire in the Bart Sears 
series, but my reading of the current Blade series suggests that Blade's 
always been a vampire.  Also, the lack of supernatural senses (when he 
killed his girlfriend because she was made up to be a vampire).

			*	*	*

Exiles IS canon
Posted by Jeph! on June 26, 2002 at 00:26:57:
In Reply to: Re: The beta non-canon list
posted by Andy Holcombe on June 24, 2002 at 02:39:33:

In the case of "Exiles", I think you're confusing "non-canon" with "non-
Marvel-Universe".

The current Exiles series absolutely takes place within the larger Marvel 
multiverse -- it has strong ties to the Age of Apocalypse universe, which 
was itself created by events on MU earth 616 ... so it IS canon.

It's just not relevant to the MCP proper, until such time as the Exiles hop 
to the MU...

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

non-canon vs alternate realities (was Re: Exiles IS canon)
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on June 26, 2002 at 16:20:25:
In Reply to: Exiles IS canon
posted by Jeph! on June 26, 2002 at 00:26:57:

On June 26, 2002, Jeph! spake:

> In the case of "Exiles", I think you're confusing "non-canon" with "non-
Marvel-Universe".

> The current Exiles series absolutely takes place within the larger Marvel 
multiverse -- it has strong ties to the Age of Apocalypse universe, which 
was itself created by events on MU earth 616 ... so it IS canon.

> It's just not relevant to the MCP proper, until such time as the Exiles 
hop to the MU...

Exactly what I wanted to comment on, but Jeph beat me to it.  I think we 
should distinguish between non-canon and alternate realities.

For example, the Guardians of the Galaxy, Spidey 2099, Kang, Deathlok, the 
Exiles, Iron Man 2020, The Last Avengers Story, Spider-Girl, and WHAT IF...? 
all exist in different realities.  Nevertheless, they exist *in the same 
multiverse* and can cross over with each other, making them canon in the 
sense that matters to the Project.  An alternate reality might be defined 
as one that has a common history with the MU proper up to a divergance 
point (whether such point is specified or implied).

OTOH, ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN, EARTH/UNIVERSE/PARADISE X, Marvel/DC/Wildstorm/
Top Cow/etc x-overs, licensed properties (TRANSFORMERS, GI JOE, Star Comics 
(except PLANET TERRY?), etc) all exist outside the multiverse, in the greater 
omniverse (per QUASAR terminology).  These are unrelated to the Marvel 
Universe proper and events in these no stories do not effect Our Heroes.  
(One might note that while this was originally the case with the NEW UNIVERSE, 
QUASAR has annexed that Earth into the MU making them canon.)  Stuff in the 
greater omniverse does not have a shared history with the Mainstream MU, 
although they may have many events in common (DC and Marvel both experienced 
World War IIs, but that doesn't making them alternate realities in relation 
to each other.).

In this sense, a "non-canon list" would have those stories that have the 
appearance of being in the MU proper, but take place out of continuity (no 
possibility of a canon crossover).  These would include: , MAN WITHOUT FEAR, 
FURY, X-MEN ICONS - ROGUE, etc.

- SK

			*	*	*

Re: Exiles IS canon
Posted by Andy Holcombe on June 26, 2002 at 18:51:58:
In Reply to: Exiles IS canon
posted by Jeph! on June 26, 2002 at 00:26:57:

> In the case of "Exiles", I think you're confusing "non-canon" with "non-
Marvel-Universe".

I thought that's what this was about: characters from non-regular Marvel 
Universes doing things that don't impact the regular Marvel Universe.  So 
by your reasoning, all titles published by Marvel are canon because they 
fall into a universe within the Marvel Multiverse.

>which was itself created by events on MU earth 616

This can be said about almost all of the comics that are "non-canon" because 
they splinter off from the regular Marvel Universe.

			*	*	*

Separate pages for separate universes?  Canon, etc.
Posted by Jeph! on June 29, 2002 at 11:03:28:
In Reply to: Re: Exiles IS canon
posted by Andy Holcombe on June 26, 2002 at 18:51:58:

> > In the case of "Exiles", I think you're confusing "non-canon" with "non-
Marvel-Universe".

> I thought that's what this was about: characters from non-regular Marvel 
Universes doing things that don't impact the regular Marvel Universe.

Not exactly.  "Canon" literally means "the works of an author that have 
been accepted as authentic".  In this case, this refers to Russ and the 
rest of us deciding which Marvel comics take place in the Marvel Multiverse, 
and which don't.  Which comics take place on worlds that LOOK like the MU or 
MM, but can't be because of continuity mistakes or glaring problems.

"X-Men Icons: Rogue" for example.  Not only does Rogue not have her flying 
and strength powers in this story ostensibly set around UX #167-175, but 
Jean Grey appears in the series, and she wasn't resurrected until the time 
of UX #205 or so.

Clearly, the series can't take place in the MU.  Nor does its "universe" 
have a clear divergence point from the MU.  And, as it was a four-issue 
series, there's very little likelihood that the characters will return and 
cross over INTO the MU.

So there's really no reason to care about it.

Same as the "Ultimate" line.  Not the MU, no readily apparent point of 
separation from the MU, and almost zero likelihood of crossing over with 
the MU.  So we don't care.  Nothing in this book will affect the Marvel 
Universe, so it's non-canon.

"Exiles", as I mentioned above, DOES have a readily obvious separation point 
from the MU (from Blink's POV, it's right between X-Men Omega and X-Men 
Prime) -- and, as it's a dimension-hopping series, it has a fair chance of 
crossing back over.

Now, this doesn't mean that I think the cast of the alternate Alpha Flight 
from issues #5-6 deserve an MCP listing, but I think a good argument could 
be made that Blink especially, and perhaps the rest of the supporting cast, 
deserve a write-up SOMEwhere.

Another example is "Mutant X" -- the Havok series, not the TV comic.  
Normally we wouldn't care about this universe at all, but the fact that 
Havok, a denizen of the real MU, is running around in it, "validates" it 
for us.  We absolutely care about including MX in HIS chronology, and to 
a lesser extent his MX-U supporting cast now deserves a write-up.

I'm starting to think, though, that characters who live in alternate 
universes, and never leave them, should get an entirely separate page.  
Why should Bloodstorm and the Brute get listed in the alphabetical MCP?  
Wouldn't it make more sense to have a "Mutant X universe" page?  That way 
we wouldn't have confusion when someone looks up "Iceman" and they get two 
choices.

This would also be a good place to put all the Exiles -- on an "Exiles" 
page.  So much less confusion that adding a fourth Thunderbird to the MCP 
and having to put "John Proudstar (alternate universe)" or something next 
to him.<p>Russ?  ;)

> So by your reasoning, all titles published by Marvel are canon because 
they fall into a universe within the Marvel Multiverse.

No.  Read my reasoning again -- only books published by Marvel that have 
PROVEN TIES to the main Marvel Universe are "canon".

> This can be said about almost all of the comics that are "non-canon" 
because they splinter off from the regular Marvel Universe.

If this were true we'd be writing up every single issue of "What If".  In 
the case of alternate worlds like this, ones that split off from the MU, we 
really only care about the ones that CROSS BACK OVER.

The "Guardians of the Galaxy" universe has its own page simply because of 
the massive number of times they've visited the MU.  The "Ultimate" line 
has nothing, because its existence has no effect, relevance or reflection 
on the real MU.

And I refuse to consider adding any "alternate future" story unless the 
characters come to live in the present-day MU.  (Bishop, Shard, and 
Phoenix III count, but the cast of "The Last Avengers Story" does not.)

Hope that clears things up ... can anyone try to explain "canon" more 
elegantly that I have?

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Separate pages for separate universes?  Canon, etc.
Posted by Russ Chappell on June 29, 2002 at 22:44:31:
In Reply to: Separate pages for separate universes?  Canon, etc.
posted by Jeph! on June 29, 2002 at 11:03:28:

> I'm starting to think, though, that characters who live in alternate 
universes, and never leave them, should get an entirely separate page.  
Why should Bloodstorm and the Brute get listed in the alphabetical MCP?  
Wouldn't it make more sense to have a "Mutant X universe" page?  That 
way we wouldn't have confusion when someone looks up "Iceman" and they 
get two choices.

> Russ?  ;)

Yes, at some point we'll move Mutant X characters to their own page.

			*	*	*

Re: Separate pages for separate universes?  Canon, etc.
Posted by Andy Holcombe on July 01, 2002 at 01:30:28:
In Reply to: Separate pages for separate universes?  Canon, etc.
posted by Jeph! on June 29, 2002 at 11:03:28:

Thanks for clearing that up.  I guess I was going by a stricter 
interpretation (whether semmantically correct or not).  I do agree that 
alternates (be they universes or futures) should be separate.

			*	*	*

Re: The beta non-canon list
Posted by Peter Fabricius on June 24, 2002 at 12:10:38:
In Reply to: The beta non-canon list
posted by StAkAr Karnak on June 23, 2002 at 07:12:37:

A few more

Spider-Man Adventures #1-16
The Adventures of Spider-Man #1-12
X-Men Adventures (vol. 1) #1-15
X-Men Adventures (vol. 2) #1-13
X-Men Adventures (vol. 3) #1-13
The Adventures of the X-Men #1-12
X-Men Evolution #1-9
Marvel Action Hour Fantastic Four #1-8
Marvel Action Hour Iron Man #1-8

all based on TV shows

Peter

			*	*	*

Re: The beta non-canon list
Posted by ShadZ on June 24, 2002 at 16:45:05:
In Reply to: The beta non-canon list
posted by StAkAr Karnak on June 23, 2002 at 07:12:37:

Also:
Elektra Lives Again GN (Frank Miller says so)
Patsy Walker
Patsy & Heady (both revealed to be fictional stories written by Patsy 
Walker's mom)
The first few issues of the Hulk magazine (revealed to be movies made 
by an alien)

			*	*	*
Re: The beta non-canon list
Posted by ShadZ on June 24, 2002 at 16:51:36:
In Reply to: Re: The beta non-canon list
posted by ShadZ on June 24, 2002 at 16:45:05:

Also:

Transformers (despite the fact that the first 12 isues seem to happen in 
the MU)

All of the comics published in the Star Comics line, except one (when Marvel 
started Star Comics, they said that one of the comics was in the mainstream 
MU, and would be revealed later.  Most Star Comics were failures that didn't 
last a year, so the mystery MU comic was never revealed.  I think it was 
Planet Terry.)

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Re: The beta non-canon list
Posted by Andy Holcombe on June 25, 2002 at 00:20:46:
In Reply to: Re: The beta non-canon list
posted by ShadZ on June 24, 2002 at 16:51:36:

> Also:

G.I. Joe
G.I. Joe Special Missions
G.I. Joe Yearbook
Transformers: Generation 2
Transformers: Headmasters
Transformers: The Movie
G.I. Joe and the Transformers
G.I. Joe: European Missions/Action Force
Star Wars
Heathcliff
Heathcliff Funhouse
Dreadstar
Dragon's Claws
The Black Dragon

			*	*	*

Re: beta non-canon list - ClanDestine #9-12
Posted by Jeph! on June 26, 2002 at 00:38:10:
In Reply to: The beta non-canon list
posted by StAkAr Karnak on June 23, 2002 at 07:12:37:

Here's an obscure one:

In "X-Men vs the ClanDestine" #1, an offhand remark by Rory(?) Destine 
reveals that the events of ClanDestine #9-onwards until the series' end 
(issue #12, I think) were nothing but a dream that Rory had the previous 
night.

Now, obviously this is Alan Davis being snippy that he only worked on the 
book until #8, but without having the issues in front of me, I believe 
there were several major plot and character changes in #9-12 that were 
totally ignored and contradicted by the Clan's appearances in "XMvsCD" 
#1-2 -- making Rory's claim that they were dreams a somewhat believable 
alternative.

Also, the "CDvsXM" trade paperback only collects issues #1-8 and the 
crossover series.  Not evidence by itself, but support for the argument...

What say you?
	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: The beta non-canon list
Posted by David Smith on July 03, 2002 at 09:08:27:
In Reply to: The beta non-canon list
posted by StAkAr Karnak on June 23, 2002 at 07:12:37:

I've discussed this previously (don't know if a decision was ever made) but 
I consider the Ka-zar GN (Guns of the Savageland) non-canon for several 
reasons most notably Ka-zar's son's age and name, Complete shift in Ka-zar 
and Shanna's personalities, a brand-new Savageland under the desert of the 
American West (New Mexico or Nevada I forget which) and has been completely 
ignored by all subsiquent appearnces of all the characters.

			*	*	*

Guardians of the Galaxy and the Thing
Posted by Scott on June 22, 2002 at 19:18:15:

I notice you don;t list the Guardians of the Galaxy members, presumably 
because they are in the future, but can anyone tell me where (and if) 
MTIO #5 appears in the context of the Marvel Presents issiues?

			*	*	*

Re: Guardians of the Galaxy and the Thing
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on June 22, 2002 at 20:13:33:
In Reply to: Guardians of the Galaxy and the Thing
posted by Scott on June 22, 2002 at 19:18:15:

Hi, Scott!  Welcome to the show!  You asked:

> I notice you don't list the Guardians of the Galaxy members

They have brief listing in the main body of the chronology that will be 
transferred, in time, to the "Killraven Mythos" section.

> can anyone tell me where (and if) MTIO #5 appears in the context of the 
Marvel Presents issues?

It goes a little something like this:

Marvel Super-Heroes #18 (1988-3007)
Marvel Two-In-One #4-5 (3014)
Giant-Size Defenders #3, 5 (3014)
Defenders v1 #26-29 (3014)
Marvel Presents #3 (3015)
Marvel Presents #4-12 (3016)
Thor Annual #6 (3016)

And then into the Korvac saga in Avengers...

- StAkAr Karnak, who just happens to have a Guardians site, accessible 
through the link below.

http://www.geocities.com/glakandar/dime.html

			*	*	*

IM@ 7
Posted by captamr on June 23, 2002 at 23:13:04:

Finally got around to reading IM@ 7 from 1984 (yes, better late than never)
and some corrections seem in order:

The issue stars the West Coast Avengers of which IM is already a member, 
features a completed move to California by the whole IM crew, IM has 
repulsors back which he lost in the Secret Wars, and the new business is 
started and named. Most of these events occured in IM 185 - 187 placing 
IM@7 after. This can also be confirmed on the letter's page of IM 187 which 
speaks about the chronology.

I would reccomend the following corrections:

Iron Man/ Tony Stark
IM 186
IM 187
IM@ 7
IM 188

Iron Man/ James Rhodes
same as above

Goliath III is a prominent villian in the annual and his chronology should 
also be checked. I'll try to do that soon.

Thanks,
Charlie

P.S. I think the Project is a great idea!! Wished I'd have found it sooner.

			*	*	*

IM@ 7 - Corrections and Additions
Posted by captamr on June 24, 2002 at 22:31:19:

In my haste to make a contribution to the Project, I took the word of the 
editors from the letter's page of IM 187 about continuity of the annual. 
However a closer look at IM 188 shows this as the issue of origin for Iron 
Man group's new company name, "Circuits Maximus". This company logo is 
prominently mentioned in the first few pages of IM@ 7 placing it after IM 
188.

Iron Man/ Tony Stark
IM 186
IM 187
IM 188
IM@ 7

Iron Man/ James Rhodes
WCA2 2 (corrected from WCA 2)
IM 186
IM 187
IM 188
IM@ 7
WCA2 3 (corrected from WCA 3)

Goliath III/ Erik Josten
WCA2 2
V&SW2 2
IM@ 7
WCA2 3

The same arguements work for Goliath III chronology. Further investigation 
needs to be done since IM@ 7 seems to be the initial appearence of Goliath 
III with his prior appearences listed under Power Man... What am I missing??

Thanks, 
Charlie

			*	*	*

BLACK PANTHER...BECKY BLAKE...BLASTAAR
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 25, 2002 at 16:43:50:

BLACK PANTHER

1) The FF 313 entry should be a -FB. The Black Panthers only appearance is 
in a sequence of the Things  recollection prefaced by him thinking   like 
this morning, fer instance, at Four Freedoms Plaza     

2) SS3 10 pg 18 pn 3   (between MCP entries FF 312 and FF 313-FB)
   At the end of FF 312 Sharon Ventura is just beginning to accept her change. 
This is immediately after battling side by side with the Black Panther.
   In SS3 10 we see her calmed down and helping to clean up the mess from the 
battle of FF 312. The Black Panther is still present.
   Then in FF 313-FB the Black Panther takes his leave.
Similarly for  THING, HUMAN TORCH, CRYSTAL, and MS MARVEL II:
       SS3 10 pg 18 pn 3   (between MCP entries FF 312 and FF 313-FB)

BLAKE, BECKY
I am having difficulty locating her in DD 156.
DD 158 - Pgs 1,2,3,6  (Between MCP entries DD 157 and DD 160)

BLASTARR
T 268 Pg 4 Panel 4    (between MCP entries S-M 90 and T 269 

			*	*	*

Marduk; Satan in Tomb of Dracula being Mephisto: Topaz provides the clue
Posted by John Mc Donagh on June 26, 2002 at 19:54:18:

http://members.aol.com/dctrmike69/TOD64.HTM shows that the Satan who stole 
Dracula's powers in Tomb of Dracula#64 also tampered with Topaz. When Topaz 
appeared in Doctor Strange II#75-81 in the 1980's, she was in Mephisto's 
Hell.
    Also, Dracula met Mephisto around Defenders#95. That might serve as a 
clue.
    By the way, another entity claiming to be Marduk showed up besides in 
Hellstorm. See
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/mardk1.htm

			*	*	*

Firelord, at the very least....
Posted by Gary M. Miller on June 28, 2002 at 21:22:28:

I noticed the listing for Firelord has him as being a "Xantarean."  This is 
erroneous...there's only one example of a Xantarean, and that's Amphibion, 
AKA Qnax (from TTA #73 etc.).  Firelord, and others like him, should be 
listed as "Xandarians" as they are from the planet Xandar.

-Gary M. Miller

			*	*	*

What about Dr. Strange?  The real one...
Posted by Matthew Green on June 29, 2002 at 07:40:42:

In a very early comic of Tales of Suspense there was a Dr. STrange who fought 
Iron Man.  Where is his listing?

			*	*	*

BLASTING CAP...MORGANA BLESSING...BLIZZARD II
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 29, 2002 at 13:24:17:

BLASTING CAP
PP 31, PP 32  (before MCP entry CAGE 5)

BLESSING, MORGANA
 DRSTR2 53 pgs 19-20 (between MCP entries DRSTR2 52 and DRSTR2 56)

BLIZZARD II/DONALD GILL
IM@10/2  (-BTS?)   (Between MCP entries IM 240 and IM 285)
 Pg 37 an unidentified voice states Me and my friends here went toe-to-toe 
with the guy Pg 38 an he nearly killed all three of us and the pictured 
scene is of Beetle, Whiplash and Blizzard fighting Iron Man.  So the Me and 
my friends here and the three of us refer to those three. (likely 
recalling the clash of IM 223-224.)
The story takes place after the main feature the same day. 

Additional entries for IM@ 10/2:
   IRON MAN (between MCP entries IM@ 10 and IM 246)

   BEETLE  (-BTS?) (between MCP entries IM 227 and FF 334)

   WHIPLASH (-BTS?)  (After IM 240 but I cannot determine whether ASM 319 
and/or H@ 17/5 occur before or after)

    HALF-FACE  (After IM@ 4/2)

    SPACE PHANTOM (between MCP entries ROM 19 and PPTSS 168)

    TARASOVA, IRINA (no current MCP entry;     IM 218,  IM@ 10/2)

   Theres also a villain who speaks on pgs 34 and 36  and is pictured on 
pg 36 whose name I cannot recall.
   And a female who speaks on pgs 37 and 39 (pictured on pg 39) that I 
cannot identify. Looks a lot like Kathy Dare but I dont recall Iron Man 
saving her life.

(CRIMSON DYNAMO is also in the feature, but his entry is already in the MCP)

ANDROMEDA and ATTUMA should have their IM@ 10/2 entries changed to IM@ 10/3

			*	*	*

Living Tribunal from What If same entity as from regular stories
Posted by John McDonagh on June 29, 2002 at 15:37:39:

  What If vol.1#32 revealed that the multiverse has only one Living Tribunal,
so the Living Tribunal who appears in What If stories represents the same 
entity as the one who appears in stories set in the universe of Earth-616.

Also, What If vol.2#48's framing story takes place on Earth-616. Although 
the scenario that the Ben Urich of Earth-616 imagines (a take on Born Again) 
is fictional with regards to Earth-616's history, that is the Earth-616 Ben 
Urich writing that story.

Oh, and the Watcher from Phoenix the Untold Story is from an alternate Earth,
as that story took place in the universe of the Days of Future Past/Rachel 
Summers storyline from X-Men#141-142, some issues of Excalibur, the Days of 
Future Present storyline etc, etc.

			*	*	*

Re: Living Tribunal from What If same entity as from regular stories
Posted by Sean Curtin on July 02, 2002 at 21:09:16:
In Reply to: Living Tribunal from What If same entity as from regular stories
posted by John McDonagh on June 29, 2002 at 15:37:39:

Also, the framing sequence of "What If Rogue Absorbed the Power of Thor" (not 
sure of the exact issue number) was set in 616; the "what if" portion of the 
issue was a possible future viewed by Destiny while she was in prison.  The 
framing sequence, IIRC, took place shortly prior to A@ 10; other Brotherhood 
members might have also appeared in that issue.

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Uatu 
Posted by DCW3 on July 03, 2002 at 12:56:06:
In Reply to: Re: Living Tribunal from What If same entity as from regular 
stories
posted by Sean Curtin on July 02, 2002 at 21:09:16:

This thread seems like a good enough place to ask a question I've been 
pondering for a while (and that may have been discussed before): Is there 
any particular reason why Uatu's What If appearances aren't listed in his 
chronology?

			*	*	*

The Kang War
Posted by SKleefeld on June 30, 2002 at 09:50:06:

The Kang War's been bugging me for a while. It's supposed to be this HUGE 
earth-shaking event, but no one outside of Avengers actually makes a direct 
reference to it. But thanks to some books from the past couple of weeks, I 
think we can start to piece this together.

So here's my first run at an overall chronology for much of this (notes 
included)...

-> Avengers: Celestial Quest #1-8. Moondragon references Quoi in IA #1, 
which Thanos there considers over and done with.

-> Infinity Abyss #1-2 (presumably #3-6 as well). Goliath appearance must 
be before  Avengers  #45, where he changes to Yellowjacket.

-> Avengers #44-45. Tony Stark is shown with a pre-Grell Iron Man mask in 
the background, so #45 must be before IM #50.

-> Iron Man #50. Debut of new IM armor. Note: There's also a reference 
to Christmas here, but I can't find any other books from the same period 
that do so as well.

-> Fantastic Four #51-54. Ends with Sue Richards giving birth. (Read as: 
she's no longer pregnant.)

-> The Order #1-5 (presumably #6 too). Triathlon shown in "normal" state 
(not the 3-D effect he picks up during the Kang War). Sue Richards isn't 
pregnant. Black Panther seems on comfortable terms with Avengers. Iron Man 
in Grell armor. 

-> X-Treme X-Men #11. Avengers begin to look at Khan's invasion before the 
Kang War kicks in full. Iron Man in Grell armor. Defenders aren't popped 
onto the scene.

-> Black Panther #41-45. T'Challa pisses off Iron Man (Grell armor), and 
puts a hole in the White House. Cameo of non-pregnant Sue Richards. 

-> Avengers #46-48. Kang War begins. #48 ends with Cap, et. al. floating 
unconscious in space. No appearance of the Defenders.

-> Black Panther #46 - T'Challa is time-displaced and unable to help with 
the Kang War.

-> Avengers 49-54. White House evacuated. Washington nuked. Earth surrenders 
to Kang. Cap, et. al. revived weeks later. Triathlon gains 3-D powers. Kang's 
butt gets kicked. Kang War ends.

-> Capt. America (v.4) #1-3. Cap helps with rebuilding efforts. Unmasks on 
national TV.

-> Fantastic Four #55-56. Ben re-examines his religious beliefs after the 
being captured by Kang's forces.

-> Thing: Freakshow #1. Parade in honor of the FF's efforts (presumably 
from what we didn't see them do during the Kang War)

-> Iron Man #51-56. IM takes a very personal role in helping people in 
need. Ayisha returns. IM unmasks (possibly following Cap's lead

I haven't found a good way to incorporate Spidey, Daredevil, Hulk or the 
Thunderbolts yet. And I'm sure I missed some relevant points that blow 
huge holes in my attempt, but it's not like I have time to be doing this 
stuff in the first place!  :)

So, any thoughts?

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: The Kang War, et al...
Posted by Jeph! on July 01, 2002 at 23:50:25:
In Reply to: The Kang War
posted by SKleefeld on June 30, 2002 at 09:50:06:

Good job, Sean!  I'd been waiting for someone to tackle the Kang War.  I've 
been rolling the events in my head for a while, but not having all the books 
has been a real hindrance.  I'm going to try to add some random stuff in 
around the edges here ... bear with me if I get any of this wrong.

First off, was there any reason that the X-Treme X-Men's "Invasion" story 
has to take place DURING the Kang War?  We already have loads of things 
stuffed in between A3 45-46, and I'm only going to be adding MORE in a 
minute.  ;)  Add to that the point that the "Invasion" arc is STILL going 
(looking like it'll wrap in two issues) and the Avengers are STILL making 
the occasional cameo ... any cast or armor-related reason why it can't take 
place AFTER the Kang War is over?  (Say, between A3 54-56?)  I mean, it's 
an other-dimensional conqueror unloading his troops onto Earth ... something 
that you'd think Kang would frown upon if he was in the middle of launching 
HIS offensive...

Now, onto Avengers: the Ultron Imperative.  This issue specifically states 
that it takes place between A3 #45 and 46.  Easy enough to place, yes?  Now, 
from what I read, Iron Man #47 (or thereabouts) has an Ultron/sentient armor 
storyline that's a direct follow-up to "Ultron Imperative", and also a 
reference to the Avengers being unavailable because they're "off fighting 
Kang".

So, while that comment seems odd because we don't know of any battles with 
Kang between A3 45-46, it's not unbelievable that there was one.  So, from 
your info below, it seems like the ONLY place to fit A:UI and IM3 47-49 (or, 
whichever issues are the "Ultron" arc) is between A3 45 and IM3 50.

Now:  Thunderbolts.  TB #54-59 take place over the course of, essentially, 
one day.  They feature an world-takeover attempt by Graviton as well as a 
prison break by Hawkeye and a cameo by Kang, preparing his gambit.  Now, 
Hawkeye is currently STILL on the lam, so his escape must come AFTER "Ultron 
Imperative", which featured him being released from prison to fight Ultron 
and then returned.  Therefore, TB #54-59 fit SOMEWHERE into that gap between 
A:UI and A3 46.  TB #57 featured a cameo by a non-pregnant Sue Richards, so 
that closes the gap to between FF3 54 and A3 46...

Now, the Defenders are shown in that selfsame cameo, and they weren't in 
"Order" mode.  We'll have to wait until "Order" #6 comes out to see if the 
Defenders are returned to status quo or not, but for now I'm placing T-Bolts 
#54-59 right in between FF3 54 and "Order" #1.

Now here's where I start to fragment off and start shoving in details that 
place books that have nothing to do with each other...

Attuma ruled Atlantis from "Defenders" v2 #2-11.  He had Namorita captive 
for some of that time (we first saw her captive in #5, and she was rescued 
in #11).  Now, an Attuma-led Atlantean attack party sided with Kang in A3 
42-43, attacking the surface.  It is presumed that this was a reference to 
the fact that Attuma was in charge at the time -- hence A3 #42-43, Kang's 
first strike, take place during D2 #2-11 -- and, more importantly, D2 #12 
takes place between A3 #43 and TB #59 on our growing list.

Now, since in one page in TB #57 we see a liberated Namorita and a non-
Ordered Defenders (remember, the pact that transformed them into the Order 
was made in D2 #12), I posit that TB #54-59 takes place between D2 #11 and 
12.

Let me pause here for a minute to make an ordered list of what I just did.  
My new entries are *starred:

* Defenders v2 #2-?.
* Avengers v3 #41-43.
Avengers v3 #44-45.
* Avengers: the Ultron Imperative.
* Iron Man v3 #47(?)-49.
Iron Man v3 #50.
Fantastic Four v3 #51-54.
* Thunderbolts #54-59.
* Defenders v2 #12.
The Order #1-(6).
Black Panther v3 #41-45.
Avengers v3 #46-48.
Black Panther v3 #46.
Avengers v3 #49-54.
* X-Treme X-Men #10-(15).
Captain America v4 #1-3.

Okay?  Okay.  Moving on (phew!!):

Now:  FF3 #42-50 guest-star Namorita, and #46-49 is the "Abraxas Saga".  Sue 
is pregnant from the end of #49 through #54 (51-54 already placed).  We can 
consider them as three separate pieces:  #42-45 (really #40-45), #46-49 
(including the 2001 Annual), and #50.  So where do these Nita cameos 
interweave with her captivity in D2 #2(5)-11?

Now, FF3 #46 makes reference Kang "just" blowing up the UN building (which 
happened in A3 #41, IIRC).  So FF3 #40-45 occured BEFORE A3 #41, which itself 
took place after D2 #2 ... so if Nita was cameoing in the earlier FF issues 
and not busily trying to help retake Atlantis, then FF3 #42-45 should occur 
before D2 #2.  (Namor appears in #42 with no mention of the Defenders' curse 
and wearing his usual [non-blue] outfit, implying it's before D2 #1 ... so 
while technically D2 #1 could occur DURING FF3 #43-45, Nita's cameos in all 
four issues make me think that FF3 #45 precedes D2 #1 as well as #2.)

As a side note, the same dialogue in FF3 #46 implies that the FF3 2001 annual 
takes place BEFORE the UN blows up in A3 #42.  Now, the Abraxas Saga takes 
place over (I assume) a relatively short amount of time, so I would assume 
that FF3 #46-49 take place between A3 #43-44 -- or, at least, that since FF3 
#46 and A3 #42 line up, that FF3 #47-49 overlaps A3 #43-45, wrapping the 
Abraxas Saga up and delivering Sue's baby well before the Kang War starts 
in earnest (A3 #46).

This gives us, in part:

* Fantastic Four v3 #40-45.
Defenders v2 #1-?.
* Fantastic Four Annual 2001.
Avengers v3 #41-43.
* Fantastic Four v3 #46-49.
Avengers v3 #44-45.

Now, what of Nita's appearances in FF3 #46-49?  Did they come before she 
was captured by Attuma between D2 #2-5, or after she was released in D2 #11?  
Did almost the entire run of "Defenders" v2 occur between FF3 #45-46?  
Surely not.

One would assume that, although Attuma controlled Atlantis in A3 #42 
(concurrent to FF3 #46), he didn't have Nita chained to his throne until 
AFTER she was done cameoing in the Abraxas Saga -- which places D2 #5 
after FF3 #49.

FF3 #50 could go either way -- right after #49 or right before #51 -- but 
seeing as the issue features Sue going out to a real-world doctor for an 
unltrasound rather than have Reed do it, it's implied that her pregnancy 
is no longer new and shocking -- implying some time has passed between 
#49-50.  Since Nita cameos, I'm inclined to place D2 #5-11 between FF3 
#49-50.

As for D2 #6-10 ... well, Orrgo's takeover of the earth was, I believe, 
erased in D2 #9 or thereabouts, and so can be placed anywhere in this 
list ... I randomly placed in in-between IM3 #49-50, but I don't think 
there's any character crossovers and I don't think it matters.

This gives us a final list of:

* Fantastic Four v3 #40-45.
* Defenders v2 #1-4.
* Citizen V and the V-Battalion #1-3.
* Fantastic Four Annual 2001.
* Avengers v3 #41-43.
* Fantastic Four v3 #46-49.
* Defenders v2 #5.
Avengers v3 #44-45.
* Avengers: the Ultron Imperative.
* (Defenders v2 #6-10.)
* Iron Man v3 #47(?)-49.
Iron Man v3 #50.
* Defenders v2 #11.
* Fantastic Four v3 #50-54.
* Thunderbolts #54-59.
* Defenders v2 #12.
The Order #1-(6).
Black Panther v3 #41-45.
Avengers v3 #46-48.
Black Panther v3 #46.
Avengers v3 #49-54.
* X-Treme X-Men #10-(15).
Captain America v4 #1-3.

As an aside, as noted above, the first "Citizen V" series took place during 
the time when Attuma ruled Atlantis -- I put it between D2 #4-5, going on 
the fact that namor appeared in CV #2, and the notion that D2 #2-4 were one 
large battle.  The CV series will be important in my NEXT post, when I try 
to tie in Captain America v3 #50,  and v4 #1-FB and Amazing Spider-Man #36 
(the Sept. 11 issues), and bring the mutant books into it all.

Yeah, there's more.  God damned Kang War.

All right.  Feel free to pick and correct.  And if you understood your way 
through all of that, you have my congratulations.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

big problem with A3 #45-46.
Posted by Jeph! on July 02, 2002 at 00:03:43:
In Reply to: Re: The Kang War, et al...
posted by Jeph! on July 01, 2002 at 23:50:25:

...I'm going to point this out before anyone else does.

The problem with shoving these huge reams of stuff in between A3 #45 and 
46 is that at the very end of #45, the Master of the World shoves his ring-
walls up around every major city in North America.

I'm not saying we're on the wrong track, but I think we have to re-read A3 
#45 verrry carefully and try to find some implication that weeks could have 
passed over the issue, meaning that these reams of other issues could have 
occured between, say, pages 18 and 19 of the issue.

And yes, Cap is all beat-up from his fight with the Presence (from #44) at 
the end of #45, but can't we for the sake of all our sanities assume that 
he's all bandaged up from some OTHER fight?  Like, from fighting the Hulk 
in the upcoming "Order" #5-6, say?)

God damned Kang War.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: The Kang War, et al...
Posted by SKleefeld on July 02, 2002 at 12:00:37:
In Reply to: Re: The Kang War, et al...
posted by Jeph! on July 01, 2002 at 23:50:25:

> Good job, Sean!  I'd been waiting for someone to tackle the Kang War.  
I've been rolling the events in my head for a while, but not having all 
the books has been a real hindrance.  I'm going to try to add some random 
stuff in around the edges here ... bear with me if I get any of this wrong.

And I thought I was nuts for tackling what I did! You put me to shame, 
Jeph!  :)

Seriously, excellent points. I did my initial version in the span of maybe 
a couple of hours, so I ended up truncatinng the ends a bit.

> First off, was there any reason that the X-Treme X-Men's "Invasion" story 
has to take place DURING the Kang War?  We already have loads of things 
stuffed in between A3 45-46, and I'm only going to be adding MORE in a 
minute.  ;)  Add to that the point that the "Invasion" arc is STILL going 
(looking like it'll wrap in two issues) and the Avengers are STILL making 
the occasional cameo ... any cast or armor-related reason why it can't take 
place AFTER the Kang War is over?  (Say, between A3 54-56?)  I mean, it's 
an other-dimensional conqueror unloading his troops onto Earth ... something 
that you'd think Kang would frown upon if he was in the middle of launching 
HIS offensive...

Well, as of this week, the only non-X-Men to appear in X-Treme were the 
Avengers in #11. A reporter does reference that "some of the world's super 
heroes" (or some such) continue to try to breach that barrier around 
Madripoor in #14, but she never mentions anyone by name or shows any 
specific characters.

So I put Khan's invasion within the context of the Kang War for a couple 
of reasons. 1) It serves as an additional distraction for earth's defenders 
from Kang. We already see that Kang tried to take  advantage of Graviton's 
and the Master's attacks, why not Khan's? 2) No X-Men to be seen during 
the Kang War. If they were all trapped in Madripoor, there's a ready-made 
excuse for why there was no mention of them for this otherwise global event. 
3) You're telling me that the Avengers and the FF couldn't have busted down 
Khan's defense wall? C'mon! Richards and Stark could whip up a defragmatizer-
whoziwhatsis and watch Thor and Thing wipe up Khan's forces before breakfast! 
If they're distracted by a larger threat though (Kang), we also have a ready-
made excuse why they didn't do more.

Also, I place it earlier in the War rather than later because the latter part 
of the Kang War is seen from Earth's orbit. Now, unless Damocles Base was 
exactly 180 degrees opposite Madripoor, we should see part of Khan's tower 
from those shots.

> So, while that comment seems odd because we don't know of any battles with 
Kang between A3 45-46, it's not unbelievable that there was one.  So, from 
your info below, it seems like the ONLY place to fit A:UI and IM3 47-49 (or, 
whichever issues are the "Ultron" arc) is between A3 45 and IM3 50.

Works for me.

> Now:  Thunderbolts.  TB #54-59 take place over the course of, essentially, 
one day.  They feature an world-takeover attempt by Graviton as well as a 
prison break by Hawkeye and a cameo by Kang, preparing his gambit.  Now, 
Hawkeye is currently STILL on the lam, so his escape must come AFTER "Ultron 
Imperative", which featured him being released from prison to fight Ultron 
and then returned.  Therefore, TB #54-59 fit SOMEWHERE into that gap between 
A:UI and A3 46.  TB #57 featured a cameo by a non-pregnant Sue Richards, so 
that closes the gap to between FF3 54 and A3 46...

Excellent!

> Now, the Defenders are shown in that selfsame cameo, and they weren't in 
"Order" mode.  We'll have to wait until "Order" #6 comes out to see if the 
Defenders are returned to status quo or not, but for now I'm placing T-Bolts 
#54-59 right in between FF3 54 and "Order" #1.

Dr. Srange appears in Amazaing Spider-Man #44 as his normal self. He also 
makes reference to a big solo adventure against Death he has coming up. I 
took that to imply that the Defenders' curse is substantially curtailed, 
if not eliminated entirely, at the end of Order #6. 

I think this works well with the continuity you're proposing.

> Attuma ruled Atlantis from "Defenders" v2 #2-11.  He had Namorita captive 
for some of that time (we first saw her captive in #5, and she was rescued 
in #11).  Now, an Attuma-led Atlantean attack party sided with Kang in A3 
42-43, attacking the surface.  It is presumed that this was a reference to 
the fact that Attuma was in charge at the time -- hence A3 #42-43, Kang's 
first strike, take place during D2 #2-11 -- and, more importantly, D2 #12 
takes place between A3 #43 and TB #59 on our growing list.

That works as well. I don't have my books at hand, but I believe there's a 
Namorita-led attack force against Kang shown in Avengers. #47 or #48, I 
think.

> Now, since in one page in TB #57 we see a liberated Namorita and a non-
Ordered Defenders (remember, the pact that transformed them into the Order 
was made in D2 #12), I posit that TB #54-59 takes place between D2 #11 and 
12.

Fair enough.

> As a side note, the same dialogue in FF3 #46 implies that the FF3 2001 
annual takes place BEFORE the UN blows up in A3 #42.  Now, the Abraxas Saga 
takes place over (I assume) a relatively short amount of time, so I would 
assume that FF3 #46-49 take place between A3 #43-44 -- or, at least, that 
since FF3 #46 and A3 #42 line up, that FF3 #47-49 overlaps A3 #43-45, 
wrapping the Abraxas Saga up and delivering Sue's baby well before the Kang 
War starts in earnest (A3 #46).

Since the Abraxas Saga involves a lot of warped time and warped realities, 
AND ends with Franklin zapping everything to as it should be before the mess 
started, the amount of "real" time spent during the Abraxas Saga is 
essentially nil. I read the finale there as occurring mere moments after 
it started.

So, plenty of time to fit that in.

> Now, what of Nita's appearances in FF3 #46-49?  Did they come before she 
was captured by Attuma between D2 #2-5, or after she was released in D2 #11?  
Did almost the entire run of "Defenders" v2 occur between FF3 #45-46?  Surely 
not.

> One would assume that, although Attuma controlled Atlantis in A3 #42 
(concurrent to FF3 #46), he didn't have Nita chained to his throne until 
AFTER she was done cameoing in the Abraxas Saga -- which places D2 #5 after 
FF3 #49.

Good.

> FF3 #50 could go either way -- right after #49 or right before #51 -- but 
seeing as the issue features Sue going out to a real-world doctor for an 
unltrasound rather than have Reed do it, it's implied that her pregnancy is 
no longer new and shocking -- implying some time has passed between #49-50.  
Since Nita cameos, I'm inclined to place D2 #5-11 between FF3 #49-50.

I'd be more inclined to put FF #50 right after #49. Remember that #50 is a 
big celebration story. Newspapers, TV shows, etc. are all doing up-beat, 
cheerful, happy bits about how wonderful the FF are. By placing FF #50 after 
Avengers #45, I think you're placing it too deep into the Kang War. The 
newscasts would be more concerned with the Hell that's breaking loose 
worldwide, and they're less likely to do fluff pieces.

We don't know how much time has passed between FF #49 and #50. It's implied 
a little while at least, as you point out, but I don't think that has to be 
too long. 

Besides, isn't She-Hulk in France by Avengers #45? (Again, I don't have my 
books handy to verify when she went over there.) Why would she come back to 
NYC just for Sue's checkup?

> All right.  Feel free to pick and correct.  And if you understood your 
way through all of that, you have my congratulations.

Really great work, overall. Just those few nuances I mentioned. Can't wait 
to see what else you bring in.

God damned Kang War.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Kang, X-Treme, Cap's death, & 9/11
Posted by Jeph, ready for his medicine now on July 03, 2002 at 00:57:43:
In Reply to: Re: The Kang War, et al...
posted by SKleefeld on July 02, 2002 at 12:00:37:

Hey, Sean.  Back again.  Thanks for the praise, but don't underestimate 
yourself either  we're BOTH nutcases, eh?

Let me go through your replies to me first, and then tackle some of the 
other junk I'm pulling in:

> Well, as of this week, the only non-X-Men to appear in X-Treme were the 
Avengers in #11. A reporter does reference that "some of the world's super 
heroes" (or some such) continue to try to breach that barrier around 
Madripoor in #14, but she never mentions anyone by name or shows any 
specific characters.

Hmm.  I could have sworn that the Avengers appeared in two issues running, 
but I guess I'll have to check that.

> So I put Khan's invasion within the context of the Kang War for a couple 
of reasons. 1) It serves as an additional distraction for earth's defenders 
from Kang. We already see that Kang tried to take  advantage of Graviton's 
and the Master's attacks, why not Khan's?

Well, the main difference as I see it is that Khan has a hope of WINNING.  
Kang tolerated Graviton's takeover attempt because, while formidable, he 
didn't take it seriously.  Khan, on the other hand, has already conquered 
thousands of worlds using essentially the same techniques as Kang.  I don't 
think Kang would stand by, arms folded, and let Khan have his try.  I just 
don't see it.

And as for Kang "taking advantage of the Master's attack"?  I don't remember 
it that way  as I read it, the Master put his ring-walls up purely to defend 
AGAINST Kang, not as an attempt to take over the world himself.

> 2) No X-Men to be seen during the Kang War. If they were all trapped in 
Madripoor, there's a ready-made excuse for why there was no mention of them 
for this otherwise global event.

Not true  remember, the X-Treme team is only one-third of the full X-Men 
team right now.  Even if Khan's attack DID keep the X-Treme team from helping 
out in the Kang War, the Uncanny and New teams should still have been visible 
kicking ass.  And in fact, they WERE, mentioned in Avengers v3 #51 as 
(unspecified X-Men) attacked the camps from the outside  Wolverine was even 
shown in a cameo in #51, avoiding capture.  The X-Treme team's absence from 
the Kang War storyline is NOT evidence that they were trapped elsewhere  it's 
just evidence that Kurt Busiek wanted this story to be about the Avengers.

> 3) You're telling me that the Avengers and the FF couldn't have busted down 
Khan's defense wall? C'mon! Richards and Stark could whip up a defragmatizer-
whoziwhatsis and watch Thor and Thing wipe up Khan's forces before breakfast! 
If they're distracted by a larger threat though (Kang), we also have a ready-
made excuse why they didn't do more.

Again, I think the same point applies  Claremont wanted this to be a story 
about the X-Men.  And the Avengers' inability to break through the wall is 
supposed to be taken as evidence that Khan is an extreme bad-ass, not that 
the Avengers are distracted.  If Claremont says the wall is too strong for 
the FF and Avengers to break through, then it is.

> Also, I place it earlier in the War rather than later because the latter 
part of the Kang War is seen from Earth's orbit. Now, unless Damocles Base 
was exactly 180 degrees opposite Madripoor, we should see part of Khan's 
tower from those shots.

This is also very good evidence that it hadn't BEGUN until the Kang War 
ENDED  we really could go either way on all of the above points.

Sadly, there's simply NO hard evidence on where to place Khan's Invasion.  
And until there is, I think we're just going to disagree.  I suggest we 
actually quit thinking about this particular topic for a while  after all, 
we've still got A3 #54-55 and XX #15-16 coming out to possibly shed some 
new light on the events.  After they've hit the stands, then maybe we can 
make some progress.  Until then, I'm holding off on making my decision 
either way.  'Kay?

> Dr. Strange appears in Amazing Spider-Man #44 as his normal self. He also 
makes reference to a big solo adventure against Death he has coming up. I 
took that to imply that the Defenders' curse is substantially curtailed, 
if not eliminated entirely, at the end of Order #6.

Probably quite right.  I'm sticking with my assumption that Thunderbolts #57 
takes place in between Defenders v2 #11 and 12, though, basically citing 
"authors' intent"  namely, the idea that the Defenders were supposed to 
be active during this time-frame.

> I think this works well with the continuity you're proposing.

Thanks.  I'm keeping it for now

> I don't have my books at hand, but I believe there's a Namorita-led attack 
force against Kang shown in Avengers. #47 or #48, I think.

Yep  in fact, she urges them to "make up for following Attuma"  evidence 
that the Attuma-led attack in A3 #42 was not rogue soldiers, but the Royal 
Atlantean Army, meaning Attuma WAS in charge at that time.

> Since the Abraxas Saga involves a lot of warped time and warped realities, 
AND ends with Franklin zapping everything to as it should be before the mess 
started, the amount of "real" time spent during the Abraxas Saga is 
essentially nil. I read the finale there as occurring mere moments after it 
started.

I like this.  Given the ludicrous amount of books we're trying to shove 
between A3 #45 and 46, any way we can compress time would be greatly 
appreciated.

> > FF3 #50 could go either way -- right after #49 or right before #51 -- but 
seeing as the issue features Sue going out to a real-world doctor for an 
unltrasound rather than have Reed do it, it's implied that her pregnancy is 
no longer new and shocking -- implying some time has passed between #49-50.

> I'd be more inclined to put FF #50 right after #49  isn't She-Hulk in 
France by Avengers #45? (Again, I don't have my books handy to verify when 
she went over there.) Why would she come back to NYC just for Sue's checkup?

Very good point!  I don't know for sure, but I *think* She-Hulk was in 
France by #45.  I know she's there by #46, and until we can confirm or 
deny this I'll agree with you and shift FF3 #50 to right after #49  possibly 
less than a week later.

> God damned Kang War.

I heartily agree.

> Can't wait to see what else you bring in.

Well, here we go!

In Captain America v3 #50, in the final three stories of the issue, Cap 
apparently dies in a nuclear explosion, and is mourned by the MU.  Now, 
these stories all APPEAR to be in Marvel continuity (references to Cap's 
relationships with the other characters are correct and up-to-date), but 
since the issue came out seven months ago Cap has resurfaced in his own 
book with NO MENTION of how he survived  and in the rest of the MU books, 
he didn't disappear or die at all.  Are CA3 #50/4-6 canon MU stories?

(By the way, if I'm mistaken about there being no explanation for his return 
and no further mentions of his death, please let me know NOW, before I make 
an ass of myself for six more pages  too late.)

But, let's assume that those stories are canon.  For the sake of argument.

Now, CA4 #1  the first issue of Cap's Marvel Knights series  we see him 
in a "seven months ago" flashback, helping out at the site of the World 
Trade Center.  When the MU WTC was demolished in Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36, 
most folks on the boards cried out "out-of-continuity!" (mainly sue to the 
fact that Doctor Doom was crying, of all things), but CA4 #1 cements the 
notion that there WAS in fact a Sept. 11 disaster in the Marvel Universe.  
With this in mind, is it POSSIBLE that ASM2 #36 is a canon story?

Let's say it is.  Again, for the sake of argument.

Here goes, then.  First off:  CA3 #50/4-6  Cap's "death" and remembrance.

Being interviewed about Cap's death we have, among others:

Iron Man (in ugly-ass non-Grell armor)
Wasp and Hank Pym (out of costume, no way to tell if he's Goliath or 
Yellowjacket)
Nomad
Thor (pre-Lord of Asgard)
Namor (on throne of Atlantis, or at least underwater)
Tony Stark (the fact that he's interviewed separately from Iron man tells 
that this issue at least takes place before IM3 #55  but we had CA4 #1 
before IM3 #55 already)
The FF (with a non-pregnant Sue and a non-power-controlling costume Johnny, 
implying pre-FF3 #40 or post-#49)
Hawkeye

and at his funeral we find:
The Defenders (all seven standing together, including Valkyrie  meaning, 
post-D2 #4).
The X-Men (including Storm and a pre-catlike Beast!)
She-Hulk

So, we have indications that this story happened quite a ways back, even 
though it was published concurrently with A3 #49 (where Kang blows up DC).  
We have Valkyrie as proof that it occurred after D2 #4 in our big messy 
chronology list, but the Beast's non-cat form and the presence of Storm 
(from the X-Treme Team) imply a relatively early point in X-Men chronology  
although, X-chronology is pretty well separate from the rest of the MU.)

We've already decided that FF3 #40-45 take place before D2 #1-4, so if 
Valkyrie exists AND Johnny has control of his flame, then the funeral 
must take place after FF3 #49.

But is it after the Kang War is over?  Or not?  The fact that Beast is 
in his pre-Morrison image here, and the post-Morrison X-Men appear in The 
Order #5-6, which is BEFORE the Kang War hits full swing, suggests that 
Cap's funeral also takes place mid-Kang War  likely in that hated gap 
between A3 #45 and 46.

I'm really starting to hate that gap.  And, to be honest, like I said 
before, it's an IMAGINARY gap, really hidden between pages of A3 #45 
itself, NOT between #45 and 46.  This enormous gap is supposed to occur 
BEFORE the Master puts up his ring-walls in the final few pages of A3 
#45!  We haven't even FOUND this gap yet, and we keep shoveling more 
Avengers appearances INTO it

Nevertheless, I'm continuing on the assumption that there is indeed a 
gap in the issue, and it's one that can be read as almost a month long.

The MCP already has Cap's chronology down for the period as:
CA3 44
IM3 39
TB 50-52
IM3 42
A3 41-45
TB 53-54
IM '01
CA3 45-46

Seems fairly obvious that things should then proceed as:
CA3 #47-50
(Cap comes back to life somehow, unshown.)
A: Ultron Imperative
and so on on our long list from previously.

I don't like it but I'll live with it.

Now, if the above is true, it's important to note another thing, this time 
with Hawkeye:

Cap's chronology has Thunderbolts #54 come BEFORE A:UI.  But, in TB #54-59 
(which, again, take place over a few hours), Hawkeye is transferred out of 
prison and into a van that crashes and he escapes.  For him to be released 
and returned in A:UI, A:UI needs to come BEFORE TB #54.

But wait  before we tear our hair out, it's important to note that there 
is an implied gap in TB #54, and it can be as long as you need it to be.  
Cap only appears on p.1-7, handing the Redeemers over to Citizen V (Baron 
Zemo).  He then goes home, and the scene switches to, among other things, 
Hawkeye in prison about to be moved.  It's easy to assume that A:UI could 
occur in that gap between pp 7-8  and, I suppose, IM '01, CA3 #45-50, D2 
#6-11, IM3 #47-50, and FF3 #51-54 can fit there as well.  (Jeez!)

But at least THAT gap can handle it, so I'm okay with leaving things this 
way.

Okay, so when does Sept. 11th take place in the MU?

Okay  CA4 #1 has images of a plainclothes Steve Rogers helping dig people 
out with his bare hands, refusing to leave the scene even when ordered by 
Nick Fury to head to Kandahar and kick ass.  Now, ASM2 #36 has images of 
several heroes, including a COSTUMED Cap, digging through the rubble.  This 
isn't a problem  he could have put his costume on to inspire the workers, 
or taken it off  doesn't make a difference.  I'm inclined to think he showed 
up plainclothes and then donned the colors as time went on  ASM2 #36 jumps 
all over the place in terms of strict time, and it's easy to assume that 
costumed Cap is there on day 2 or 3 or 5 of the rescue efforts.  So I'm 
placing the CA4 #1 disaster scenes before the ASM2 #36 stuff.

Now, CA3 50/1 and IM3 50 take place at or around Christmastime, so it's 
likely that the disaster issues take place around three months prior.  This 
is backed up by an appearance by Hawkeye, who is in jail from TB #50-onward, 
and Magneto and the Kingpin, both of whom are presumed dead lately -- meaning 
that placing these BACKWARDS on everyone's chronology is probably the way 
to go.

Magneto's appearance puts the disaster prior to Uncanny X-Men #392-393 and 
X-Men #112-113, where he was crippled by Wolverine.  I'd put it between 
UX #391 and X #111 in the X-Men's chronology, because in UX #391 Cyclops 
was about to return to the X-Men (he appears in ASM2 #36) and in UX #111, 
Magneto was in the US  kidnapping Prof X in X and looking for recruits 
to join his Genoshan army (in X-Men Unlimited #36/2, a recent issue which 
states that "the story takes place before X 114"  X 111 is the only other 
time Magneto is in the US).

This works given that we've placed CA3 #50 prior to X #114  although I'm 
starting to have doubts about shifting relative X-chronology so much, given 
that X #114 was published seven months PRIOR to CA3 #50

Now, Cap and Quicksilver appear in X #111 in the form of TV clips  
flashbacks, essentially.  And while these flashbacks are placed prior to 
A3 #38 in the MCP, the Quicksilver one at least was stated to be "several 
weeks ago", implying that X #111  and hence the MU 9/11 tragedy  could 
(and likely should) take place sometime AFTER A3 #38.

In Spider-Man's chronology, ASM2 #36 was published "out of sequence"  
meant to NOT take place during the ongoing Morlun storyline from #33-37.  
I originally posited that it takes place after the Morlun arc wraps, but 
given that we're pushing it back for everyone else, I think it's best we 
push it back in Spidey's timeline as well:  occuring between, say, #32 
and 33 (if memory serves, there's a relatively good gap there).

For the Avengers and the T-Bolts?  I have no idea.  The UN building was 
destroyed by Kang in A3 #42  did this happen before or after the WTC 
disaster?  (In publication terms, it was before  in MU terms, who knows?)  
If we want to try to keep it close to A3 #38 as X #111 suggests, then I 
suggest in between A3 #40 and 41  if memory serves, there's a break there 
between the Enormous Greek Hulk Battle and Kang's first salvo.  I'd place 
ASM2 #36 there.

I realize that I'm talking about slipping books cover-dated Dec 2001 in 
with books dated April and May 2001, but ASM2 #36 is such an ambiguous, 
standalone issue that in this case it just plain may not matter.

T-Bolts:  well, the best place would be between #49 and #50 (also May 2001)  
I know it interrupts the T-Bolts' vendetta against the CSA, but hey, it was 
a national tragedy  I don't see any of the 'Bolts begrudging Hawkeye a few 
days in NYC to lend a hand -- after all, they needed a while to plan their 
infiltration of the CSA offices in DC.

The FF:  For a change, I'm placing the issue relatively close to normal:  
between FF3 #44 and 45.  Johnny Storm doesn't appear at all in ASM2 #36, 
even though Mr. Fantastic and the Thing are helping out  I'm assuming it's 
because he's at home in the Baxter Building with no control over his powers.  
(Well, it was that or place the issue between #39 and 40, when the team heads 
into the Negative Zone for four issues.)

Daredevil also appears, as does the Kingpin, which places the issue before 
the "Underboss" storyline  but as I don't collect the book, I'm at a total 
loss here.  Sorry.

I don't have any of the Spider-books at hand, but I don't think that placing 
ASM2 #36 with May 2001 books for the rest of the Marvel Universe and placing 
it at August 2001 in ASM terms (ASM2 #32) will be a problem.  As far as I 
know, there's almost zero character overlap to worry about in ASM2 #32-35.  
Dr. Octopus appears in the issue, but I don't think that's a problem at all, 
given that he doesn't appear next until PP:SM #38 or so.

Sooooo  what does this give us?

Well, as stated in CA4 #1, there's a gap of SEVEN MONTHS between Sept. 11 
and the bulk of the issue.  I feel better about shifting 9/11 back now, 
because that gives the Kang War and all its surrounding crap seven months 
to occur.  That makes me feel better about this A3 #45-46 gap-thing, too.  
Let me list this up and see what we get, throwing in everything we've just 
discussed with everything we decided on yesterday.  Take a deep breath:

Avengers v3 #38 / X-Men #111-FB -  Quicksilver recovers (Magneto threw 
him out of Genosha and hurt him badly BTS) and rejoins the Avengers.  Cap 
is interviewed about Magneto's upcoming gambits.

Thunderbolts #48-49  the team returns from Titan and captures Scourge, 
who spills the beans about the CSA/nanites plot.

Avengers v3 #39-40  the Avengers fight Diablo's Hulk-creating potion in 
Greece.

Amazing Spider-Man #30-32  J. Michael takes over and redefines Pete's 
life.

Fantastic Four v3 #40-44  the team adventures in the Negative Zone, Johnny 
loses control of his flame powers.

Uncanny X-Men #391  Cyclops heads back to the X-Men.

Captain America v4 #1  Sept. 11th.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36  Sept. 11th.

X-Men Unlimited #36/2  Magneto liberates captive mutants, looking for 
soldiers.

X-Men #111  Magneto kidnaps Prof. X and heads to Genosha.  Cap's interview 
airs.

Fantastic Four v3 #45  Reed is JUST dealing with Johnny's flame problem.

Uncanny X-Men #392-393, X-Men 112-113  Wolverine cripples Magneto in the 
"Eve of Destruction".

Thunderbolts #50-52  the team is pardoned, Hawkeye goes to jail.  Cap starts 
training the Redeemers.

Iron Man v3 #42  Cap appears here between TB 52 and A3 41.

Defenders v2 #1-4  the Defenders are cursed, Valkyrie comes back in a fight 
with Pluto, Attuma conquers Atlantis.

Citizen V and the V-Battalion #1-3  the Battaltion deals with nanites in 
an Attuma-controlled Atlantis.

Fantastic Four Annual 2001  Galactus' head hits Times Square in the opening 
salvo of the Abraxas Saga.

Avengers v3 #41-43  Kang's own opening salvo knocks down the UN building, 
Attuma attacks Prince Edward Island using Atlantean troops.

Avengers Annual 2001  Hank Pym's doubled-up physiology is cured.

Fantastic Four v3 #46-50  the Abraxas Saga, plus the Nuff Said issue with 
Nita.

Defenders v2 #5  Namorita captured just prior to this.

Avengers: Celestial Quest #1-8   check me on this  can this occur between 
A3 #43-44?

Infinity Abyss #1-6  the Defenders are still cursed, Hank Pym is still 
Goliath.

Avengers v3 #44-45  the Avengers fight the Presence, Cap is transformed 
into a zombie and back.  Hank becomes Yellowjacket.

Thunderbolts #53-54  Cap finishes up with the Redeemers.

Iron Man Annual 2001  Cap appears.

Captain America v3 #45-50.  Cap does stuff, then "dies."

New X-Men #114-116  the Genoshan tragedy, Cassandra Nova outs the X-Men.  
Possibly this space can be used to pad out the time Cap is considered "dead" 
with X-related adventures, until Cap inevitably returns in time for

Avengers: the Ultron Imperative  Hawkeye is released and returned to 
prison.

Iron Man v3 #47(?)-49  Tony fights Ultron in a sequel to the Ultron 
Imperative.

Iron Man v3 #50  Tony's new ("Grell") armor.  Also, if it really is Christmas 
here, then maybe CA3 #50/1 takes place here too.

Defenders v2 #11  Atlantis is freed, as is Nita.

Thunderbolts #54-59  Graviton kidnaps all the heroes and lifts all the 
cities.  (Maybe this is when/how the Master gets his idea to put ring-walls 
around them all)

Defenders v2 #12  the pact is made that transforms the Defenders into the 
Order.

The Order #1-6  the Avengers and the X-Men try to keep the Order from taking 
over the Earth.  I believe a (rebuilt?) UN building features in issue #2

Black Panther v3 #41-46  these issues feature a not-in-hiding President Bush 
and a non-destroyed Washington DC.

Avengers #45-54.  Kang launches his salvo and conquers the US.  Eventually he 
is overthrown and the President comes out of hiding.

Amazing Spider-Man #44  Dr. Strange is back and free of the Defenders' 
Curse.

Captain America v4 #1-3  Cap fights terror in a post-Kang USA.

There's a bunch of stuff I didn't include in here, like Iron Man v3 #43-46, 
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #33-35 and 37-43, and Defenders v2 #6-10, because I 
just have no information on the issues.  But most of the stuff I didn't 
include is mutant-related books, like XX #10-15 and UX #395-406.  I've 
actually got so much to say on the X-books and how they dance around the 
mess above that they need their own post.  This, I think, is good enough 
for tonight.

Please feel free to write in any corrections or questions.  I'll try my best 
to remember my rationale and answer anyone who asks.  And if I'm just sadly 
wrong on any of the issue details or numbers, please let me know.

Sean, I hope your brain explodes upon reading this, as mine did upon writing 
it.

That goddamn Kang War.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Daredevil, Iron Man, Spidey, &amp; Hulk...
Posted by SKleefeld on July 03, 2002 at 10:49:56:
In Reply to: Kang, X-Treme, Cap's death, & 9/11
posted by Jeph, ready for his medicine now on July 03, 2002 at 00:57:43:

> Hey, Sean.  Back again.  Thanks for the praise, but don't underestimate 
yourself either  we're BOTH nutcases, eh?

I say we blame Russ and sue him for lost time or something.  :)

> Let me go through your replies to me first, and then tackle some of the 
other junk I'm pulling in:

I'll do the same thing since I've got some more goodies to add to this mess.

> Well, the main difference as I see it is that Khan has a hope of WINNING.  
Kang tolerated Graviton's takeover attempt because, while formidable, he 
didn't take it seriously.  Khan, on the other hand, has already conquered 
thousands of worlds using essentially the same techniques as Kang.  I don't 
think Kang would stand by, arms folded, and let Khan have his try.  I just 
don't see it.

First, let me say that I'm willing to drop this one for the time being, too. 
But, I'll also say that Graviton did a pretty fine job of kicking booty 
himself. I mean, he had EVERY super powered threat hanging helplessly in 
mid-air. (Cripes, Texas Twister even!)

IIRC, doesn't that short Kang cameo in TBolts say something about that he 
knows Graviton will lose from the history records? Wouldn't he have known 
that about Khan too?

> The X-Treme team's absence from the Kang War storyline is NOT evidence 
that they were trapped elsewhere  it's just evidence that Kurt Busiek 
wanted this story to be about the Avengers.

True, but we can avoid the question altogether if the X-Treme team was 
occupied. That's one of the reasons I placed Black Panther in the midst 
of the Kang War: the time-displacement keeps us from trying to ascertain 
what he was doing.

> Sadly, there's simply NO hard evidence on where to place Khan's Invasion.  
And until there is, I think we're just going to disagree.  I suggest we 
actually quit thinking about this particular topic for a while  after all, 
we've still got A3 #54-55 and XX #15-16 coming out to possibly shed some 
new light on the events.  After they've hit the stands, then maybe we can 
make some progress.  Until then, I'm holding off on making my decision 
either way.  'Kay?

I'm game. Not that it'll be much easier, I suspect, but I'll try to be 
optimistic.  :)

>  Are CA3 #50/4-6 canon MU stories?

Well, I can't see any reason why they aren't. We know Cap has "died" on 
several occassions already. My initial reading of the books led me to 
believe that it was a prelude to volume 4, in the sense that Cap was going 
undercover for a while and acting more as a SHIELD agent. It almost does 
that for Dead Men Running (which we haven't addressed yet) but that almost 
certainly has to take place after the Kang War and not during.

> (By the way, if I'm mistaken about there being no explanation for his 
return and no further mentions of his death, please let me know NOW, before 
I make an ass of myself for six more pages  too late.)

No explanation that I'm aware of.

> When the MU WTC was demolished in Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36, most folks 
on the boards cried out "out-of-continuity!" (mainly sue to the fact that 
Doctor Doom was crying, of all things),

Well, there were other factors too, I think. Kingpin was blinded, Cyclops 
was using his eye-beams to weld, Magneto being crippled, Hawkeye being 
jailed... I think there was just too much of that stuff that couldn't be 
reconciled with everything else.

> but CA4 #1 cements the notion that there WAS in fact a Sept. 11 disaster 
in the Marvel Universe.  With this in mind, is it POSSIBLE that ASM2 #36 is 
a canon story?

Well, Captain America v4 #1 doesn't actually say it was the WTC or that it 
was on Sept. 11, I don't believe. There's definite mention of a tragedy and 
it's clearly referencing the real 9-11, but the book itself doesn't say 
that it is. I was able to read that as Steve Rogers helping clean up some 
of the destruction left in the wake of the Kang War.

But I'm willing to listen to what you've put together.

> But is it after the Kang War is over?  Or not?  The fact that Beast is in 
his pre-Morrison image here, and the post-Morrison X-Men appear in The Order 
#5-6, which is BEFORE the Kang War hits full swing, suggests that Cap's 
funeral also takes place mid-Kang War  likely in that hated gap between A3 
#45 and 46.

Perhaps then he used the injuries from #45 as an "excuse" to fall out of 
sight?

> I'm really starting to hate that gap.  And, to be honest, like I said 
before, it's an IMAGINARY gap, really hidden between pages of A3 #45 itself, 
NOT between #45 and 46.  This enormous gap is supposed to occur BEFORE the 
Master puts up his ring-walls in the final few pages of A3 #45!  We haven't 
even FOUND this gap yet, and we keep shoveling more Avengers appearances 
INTO it

God damned Kang War!

> For the Avengers and the T-Bolts?  I have no idea.  The UN building was 
destroyed by Kang in A3 #42  did this happen before or after the WTC 
disaster?  (In publication terms, it was before  in MU terms, who knows?)  
If we want to try to keep it close to A3 #38 as X #111 suggests, then I 
suggest in between A3 #40 and 41  if memory serves, there's a break there 
between the Enormous Greek Hulk Battle and Kang's first salvo.  I'd place 
ASM2 #36 there.

Hmmm. You know, you might actually be on to something here.

> I don't have any of the Spider-books at hand, but I don't think that 
placing ASM2 #36 with May 2001 books for the rest of the Marvel Universe 
and placing it at August 2001 in ASM terms (ASM2 #32) will be a problem.  
As far as I know, there's almost zero character overlap to worry about in 
ASM2 #32-35.  Dr. Octopus appears in the issue, but I don't think that's 
a problem at all, given that he doesn't appear next until PP:SM #38 or so.

> Sooooo  what does this give us?

> Well, as stated in CA4 #1, there's a gap of SEVEN MONTHS between Sept. 11 
and the bulk of the issue.  I feel better about shifting 9/11 back now, 
because that gives the Kang War and all its surrounding crap seven months 
to occur.  That makes me feel better about this A3 #45-46 gap-thing, too.  
Let me list this up and see what we get, throwing in everything we've just 
discussed with everything we decided on yesterday.  Take a deep breath:

Excellent work. I'm willing to buy your 9-11 bit and you work out Cap's 
chronology pretty well too. I couldn't stand Morrison's and Casey's X-books, 
so the only X-stuff I've seen lately is Claremont's. I'll take your word for 
their appearances.

Now, on to the stuff I went through last night.

Iron Man usually isn't too bad since you can follow his armor in outside 
books, but here it's a little tricky. In IM #40, he finishes his battle 
with Ultron and has his armor fried. In IM #41, he pulls out some old 
retro armor (as also seen in Avengers #41-43). But in IM #42 he drops out 
of site as Tony Stark, takes a new identity as Hogan Potts, and works on 
new armor developments. He wears sort of a make-shift, work-in-progress 
armor through #43. And in #44, he finally dons that monstrosity that he 
wears up until #50 when Mike Grell starts on the book. With no explanation, 
though, we see Stark in the classic armor for Ultron Imperative.

So, IM #41 has to appear before Avengers #41. We also see a brief shot of 
him on TV wearing the armor in Defenders #1, so it must occur before here 
as well. Avengers #45 makes reference to Stark having just dropped out of 
site, so IM #42-43 needs to occur between Avengers #44 and 45. (Note that 
Goliath makes a cameo in from the Avengers Mansion in IM #43.) I then have 
to presume that he dons the classic armor in A:UI while he puts finishing 
touches on his new armor. That would give him a straight run of IM #44-50 
between Defenders #6 and 10.

Daredevil is going to be a complete nightmare for Russ because of all the 
flashbacks. For the moment, I'm just looking at the main story. Issues 
#26-34 (and probably the next few issues as well) only take place over the 
course of about a day and half. (Again, barring flashbacks.) There's not 
too terribly much to go on. The Spider-Man, Elektra and FF appearances 
are pretty ambiguous and could be almost any time. But the basic premise 
of the story (that a newspaper reveals Matt Murdock is DD as a full, front-
page headline) suggest to me that nothing else newsworthy is going on. Which 
puts it either substaintially before or after the Kang War. Now, since we've 
established that both Captain America and Iron Man unmask shortly after the 
Kang War, I find it easier to slide DD forward to before FF #40 (since we're 
shown a Human Torch with control of his powers).

I haven't completely analyzed Hulk yet, but Banner shaves his head in Hulk 
#34 and continues with the skinhead look through #42 and counting. Since 
we see that his hair-length transfers to the Hulk, we've got to push these 
appearances at least as far back as Order #6. I'm inclined to push it out 
of the Kang War entirely (since feds and police aren't spending their time 
fighting Kang's forces) to after Avengers #54. At one point, I put Reed 
Richards' appearances in Hulk #30 and #32 between FF #47 and 48. I haven't 
checked to see if that still holds up, but I'm going to leave it for now. 
(It might have to get pushed back to between #49 and #50.) That only leaves 
us with #33 to deal with. That issue has some ties with Black Panther and I 
haven't been able to compare the two yet.

Finally, I've got some Spidey stuff figured out. Bear with me on this. In 
Deadline #1, we start with a Human Torch in control of his flame. Sort of. 
The initial implication would be putting it RIGHT after FF #54. It's 
implied, though, that he was out with Namorita the night before, and I got 
the impression that she spent most of the Kang War in Atlantis. So I would 
place this after the Kang War. (Which is also supported by the inane 
questions the reporter asks.) But, we also see a computer screen showing 
the SuperheroNewsarama.com web site asking who is behind the mask of Captain 
America. So clearly, this is before his unveiling in Cap v4 #3. The easiest 
place, therefore, is between Avengers #54 and Cap v4 #1. Deadline #2, of 
course, follows that and features Dr. Octopus fighting Spider-Man. (I told 
you to bear with me.) 

Now, the closest Ock/Spidey fight happens to be in Peter Parker #41. Also 
happens to have them falling from a building, just like in Deadline. Since 
#39-41 run more less back-to-back, that puts all three issues right after 
Avengers #54. PP #37 has Spidey fighting a snow storm, so I drop this near 
the closest winter reference I can find: IM #50. #38 doesn't feature anyone 
prominent and can pretty safely fall anywhere in between at this point.

I haven't had a chance to compare this with Amazing or any of the various 
limiteds yet.

So, the full count -- as it stands now -- looks like this. 

> Avengers v3 #38 / X-Men #111-FB -  Quicksilver recovers (Magneto threw 
him out of Genosha and hurt him badly BTS) and rejoins the Avengers.  Cap 
is interviewed about Magneto's upcoming gambits.
> Thunderbolts #48-49  the team returns from Titan and captures Scourge, 
who spills the beans about the CSA/nanites plot.
> Avengers v3 #39-40  the Avengers fight Diablo's Hulk-creating potion 
in Greece.
> Amazing Spider-Man #30-32  J. Michael takes over and redefines Pete's 
life.
> Daredevil #26-34 - Matt Murdock revealed to be Daredevil. Cameos by Spidey, 
FF, and Elektra (in London).
> Fantastic Four v3 #40-44  the team adventures in the Negative Zone, Johnny 
loses control of his flame powers.
> Uncanny X-Men #391  Cyclops heads back to the X-Men.
> Captain America v4 #1  Sept. 11th.
> Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36  Sept. 11th.
> X-Men Unlimited #36/2  Magneto liberates captive mutants, looking for 
soldiers.
> X-Men #111  Magneto kidnaps Prof. X and heads to Genosha.  Cap's interview 
airs.
> Fantastic Four v3 #45  Reed is JUST dealing with Johnny's flame problem.
> Uncanny X-Men #392-393, X-Men 112-113  Wolverine cripples Magneto in the 
"Eve of Destruction".
> Thunderbolts #50-52  the team is pardoned, Hawkeye goes to jail.  Cap 
starts training the Redeemers.
> Defenders v2 #1-4  the Defenders are cursed, Valkyrie comes back in a 
fight with Pluto, Attuma conquers Atlantis.
> Citizen V and the V-Battalion #1-3  the Battaltion deals with nanites in 
an Attuma-controlled Atlantis.
> Fantastic Four Annual 2001  Galactus' head hits Times Square in the 
opening salvo of the Abraxas Saga.
> Avengers v3 #41-43  Kang's own opening salvo knocks down the UN building, 
Attuma attacks Prince Edward Island using Atlantean troops.
> Avengers Annual 2001  Hank Pym's doubled-up physiology is cured.
> Fantastic Four v3 #46-47
> Hulk #30-32 - Reed Richards and Scott Lang cure Banner of ALS. Appearances 
of Thing, She-Hulk and Doc Samson.
> Fantastic Four #48-50  the Abraxas Saga, plus the Nuff Said issue with 
Nita.
> Defenders v2 #5  Namorita captured just prior to this.
> Avengers: Celestial Quest #1-8   check me on this  can this occur between 
A3 #43-44? A:CQ shouldn't be a problem. The only significant issue I see 
offhand is that IA needs to happen after Jack of Hearts joins the Avengers.
> Infinity Abyss #1-6  the Defenders are still cursed, Hank Pym is still 
Goliath.
> Avengers v3 #44 the Avengers fight the Presence, Cap is transformed into 
a zombie and back. 
> Iron Man #42-43 - Testing of "demo" armor. Concludes with Stark going into 
hiding and building new armor. Appearance of Goliath. (I want to push this 
back for armor consistency. Does Cap's appearance necessitate having it 
earlier?)
> Avengers v3 #45  the Avengers fight the Presence, Cap is transformed back.  
Hank becomes Yellowjacket.
> Thunderbolts #53-54  Cap finishes up with the Redeemers.
> Iron Man Annual 2001  Cap appears.
> Captain America v3 #45-50.  Cap does stuff, then "dies."
> New X-Men #114-116  the Genoshan tragedy, Cassandra Nova outs the X-Men.  
Possibly this space can be used to pad out the time Cap is considered "dead" 
with X-related adventures, until Cap inevitably returns in time for
> Avengers: the Ultron Imperative  Hawkeye is released and returned to 
prison.
> Iron Man #44-46 - Introduction of new, ugly armor. 
> Iron Man v3 #47(?)-49  Tony fights Ultron in a sequel to the Ultron 
Imperative.
> Iron Man v3 #50  Tony's new ("Grell") armor.  Also, if it really is 
Christmas here, then maybe CA3 #50/1 takes place here too.
> Peter Parker #37 - It's snowing really hard. Human Torch appearance. 
> Defenders v2 #11  Atlantis is freed, as is Nita.
> Thunderbolts #54-59  Graviton kidnaps all the heroes and lifts all the 
cities.  (Maybe this is when/how the Master gets his idea to put ring-walls 
around them all)
> Defenders v2 #12  the pact is made that transforms the Defenders into the 
Order.
> The Order #1-6  the Avengers and the X-Men try to keep the Order from 
taking over the Earth.  I believe a (rebuilt?) UN building features in 
issue #2
> Black Panther v3 #41-46  these issues feature a not-in-hiding President 
Bush and a non-destroyed Washington DC.
> Avengers #45-54.  Kang launches his salvo and conquers the US.  Eventually 
he is overthrown and the President comes out of hiding.
> Amazing Spider-Man #43 - Dr. Strange makes a cameo on the last panel to 
lead into #44.
> Amazing Spider-Man #44  Dr. Strange is back and free of the Defenders' 
Curse.
> Deadline #1 - Human Torch appearance
> Peter Parker #38-39 - Nuff said issue with mimes (funny!) and Spidey vs. 
Doc Ock.
> Deadline #2 ~ Peter Parker #38 - rooftop battle between Spidey and Doc Ock.
> Deadline #3 (and 4?)
> Hulk #34-42 - Banner shaves head and is on the lamb.
> Captain America v4 #1-3  Cap fights terror in a post-Kang USA.
> Fantastic Four #55-56 (Just to have these while we're at it!)
> Thing: Freakshow #1
> Iron Man #51-56

> Sean, I hope your brain explodes upon reading this, as mine did upon 
writing it.

Fortunately, I was still half-asleep when I first read it, so it took a while 
to even register. More of a slow hemorraging.  :)

Love this tag team chronologizing.

Hate the God damn Kang War.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Noticing my own problems...
Posted by SKleefeld on July 03, 2002 at 12:26:06:
In Reply to: Daredevil, Iron Man, Spidey, & Hulk...
posted by SKleefeld on July 03, 2002 at 10:49:56:

Just going through what I wrote and found some things that I (obviously) 
haven't worked out yet. 
> Avengers v3 #38 / X-Men #111-FB -  Quicksilver recovers (Magneto threw him 
out of Genosha and hurt him badly BTS) and rejoins the Avengers.  Cap is 
interviewed about Magneto's upcoming gambits.
> Thunderbolts #48-49  the team returns from Titan and captures Scourge, 
who spills the beans about the CSA/nanites plot.
> Avengers v3 #39-40  the Avengers fight Diablo's Hulk-creating potion in 
Greece.
> Amazing Spider-Man #30-32  J. Michael takes over and redefines Pete's 
life.
> Daredevil #26-34 - Matt Murdock revealed to be Daredevil. Cameos by Spidey, 
FF, and Elektra (in London).

The problem here is that Kingpin is a) blind and b) killed during this story. 
Which means it has to occur after September 11, if its current placement of 
that is accurate. If we push DD shortly after 9-11, then we have a Human 
Torch problem. Push it back to after the Kang War, but before Cap is unmasked? 
This would be the only other real place for it, since the "Three Months Ago" 
flashback show Kingpin as blind then, too, meaning these DD stories have to 
occur in mid-December or later.

> Fantastic Four v3 #40-44  the team adventures in the Negative Zone, Johnny 
loses control of his flame powers.
> Uncanny X-Men #391  Cyclops heads back to the X-Men.
> Captain America v4 #1  Sept. 11th.
> Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36  Sept. 11th.
> X-Men Unlimited #36/2  Magneto liberates captive mutants, looking for 
soldiers.
> X-Men #111  Magneto kidnaps Prof. X and heads to Genosha.  Cap's interview 
airs.
> Fantastic Four v3 #45  Reed is JUST dealing with Johnny's flame problem.
> Uncanny X-Men #392-393, X-Men 112-113  Wolverine cripples Magneto in the 
"Eve of Destruction".
> Thunderbolts #50-52  the team is pardoned, Hawkeye goes to jail.  Cap 
starts training the Redeemers.
> Defenders v2 #1-4  the Defenders are cursed, Valkyrie comes back in a 
fight with Pluto, Attuma conquers Atlantis.
> Citizen V and the V-Battalion #1-3  the Battaltion deals with nanites in 
an Attuma-controlled Atlantis.
> Fantastic Four Annual 2001  Galactus' head hits Times Square in the opening 
salvo of the Abraxas Saga.
> Avengers v3 #41-43  Kang's own opening salvo knocks down the UN building, 
Attuma attacks Prince Edward Island using Atlantean troops.
> Avengers Annual 2001  Hank Pym's doubled-up physiology is cured.
> Fantastic Four v3 #46-47
> Hulk #30-32 - Reed Richards and Scott Lang cure Banner of ALS. Appearances 
of Thing, She-Hulk and Doc Samson.

Now that I think about it, we almost have to leave FF #46-49 intact. Hulk 
should get dropped between FF #49 and #50, which also sets the stage for 
She-Hulk being available for Sue's obgyn visit.

> Fantastic Four #48-50  the Abraxas Saga, plus the Nuff Said issue with 
Nita.
> Defenders v2 #5  Namorita captured just prior to this.
> Avengers: Celestial Quest #1-8   check me on this  can this occur 
between A3 #43-44? A:CQ shouldn't be a problem. The only significant issue 
I see offhand is that IA needs to happen after Jack of Hearts joins the 
Avengers.
> Infinity Abyss #1-6  the Defenders are still cursed, Hank Pym is still 
Goliath.
> Avengers v3 #44 the Avengers fight the Presence, Cap is transformed into 
a zombie and back. 
> Iron Man #42-43 - Testing of "demo" armor. Concludes with Stark going into 
hiding and building new armor. Appearance of Goliath. (I want to push this 
back for armor consistency. Does Cap's appearance necessitate having it 
earlier?)

DUH! Cap's a zombie at the end of Avengers #44. Maybe there's a hole between 
pages that we can work with? (Not like we haven't had to hunt for them 
before!)

> Avengers v3 #45  the Avengers fight the Presence, Cap is transformed 
back.  Hank becomes Yellowjacket.
> Thunderbolts #53-54  Cap finishes up with the Redeemers.
> Iron Man Annual 2001  Cap appears.
> Captain America v3 #45-50.  Cap does stuff, then "dies."
> New X-Men #114-116  the Genoshan tragedy, Cassandra Nova outs the X-Men.  
Possibly this space can be used to pad out the time Cap is considered "dead" 
with X-related adventures, until Cap inevitably returns in time for

We could maybe drop Dead Men Running here? 
> Avengers: the Ultron Imperative  Hawkeye is released and returned to 
prison.
> Iron Man #44-46 - Introduction of new, ugly armor. 
> Iron Man v3 #47(?)-49  Tony fights Ultron in a sequel to the Ultron 
Imperative.
> Iron Man v3 #50  Tony's new ("Grell") armor.  Also, if it really is 
Christmas here, then maybe CA3 #50/1 takes place here too.
> Peter Parker #37 - It's snowing really hard. Human Torch appearance. 
> Defenders v2 #11  Atlantis is freed, as is Nita.
> Thunderbolts #54-59  Graviton kidnaps all the heroes and lifts all the 
cities.  (Maybe this is when/how the Master gets his idea to put ring-walls 
around them all)
> Defenders v2 #12  the pact is made that transforms the Defenders into 
the Order.
> The Order #1-6  the Avengers and the X-Men try to keep the Order from 
taking over the Earth.  I believe a (rebuilt?) UN building features in 
issue #2
> Black Panther v3 #41-46  these issues feature a not-in-hiding President 
Bush and a non-destroyed Washington DC.
> Avengers #45-54.  Kang launches his salvo and conquers the US.  Eventually 
he is overthrown and the President comes out of hiding.

Hmmm... How much of ASM runs back-to-back? Does we need to put #40 plus here 
by necessity? (No books handy at the moment.) And where the heck is the Morlun 
storyline gonna go? 

> Amazing Spider-Man #43 - Dr. Strange makes a cameo on the last panel to 
lead into #44.
> Amazing Spider-Man #44  Dr. Strange is back and free of the Defenders' 
Curse.
> Deadline #1 - Human Torch appearance
> Peter Parker #38-39 - Nuff said issue with mimes (funny!) and Spidey vs. 
Doc Ock.
> Deadline #2 ~ Peter Parker #38 - rooftop battle between Spidey and Doc 
Ock.
> Deadline #3 (and 4?)
> Hulk #34-42 - Banner shaves head and is on the lamb.
> Captain America v4 #1-3  Cap fights terror in a post-Kang USA.
> Fantastic Four #55-56 (Just to have these while we're at it!)
> Thing: Freakshow #1
> Iron Man #51-56

> Fortunately, I was still half-asleep when I first read it, so it took a 
while to even register. More of a slow hemorraging.  :)

... which is apparently getting worse the more I think about this. 

Damn Kang War!

 -- Sean

			*	*	*

My turn -- mostly polishing.  Kang war, take eight...
Posted by Jeph! on July 03, 2002 at 18:22:10:
In Reply to: Noticing my own problems...
posted by SKleefeld on July 03, 2002 at 12:26:06:

This just gets worse and worse.

> I say we blame Russ and sue him for lost time or something. :)

Done and done.  And I mean done.  All this computer time is driving my 
girlfriend insane.  And not in the good way.

>  I've got some more goodies to add to this mess.

Cripes, so do I.  I don't think I'll be getting to the mutant books after 
all.  Maybe next post (sigh).

By the way, I give up on this italic, multicolored post stuff.  I just can't 
do the html -- sorry, but I'm gonna have to stick to caps and carriage-returns 
to make my important points stand out.

> First, let me say that I'm willing to drop [the X-Treme debate] for the 
time being, too. 

Okay.  BTW, Avengers v3 #55 came out today and it really doesn't help  I'm 
waiting for issue 56, though, which is supposed to guest-star the Beast.  
Maybe something will be dropped there or over in the XX book that'll help 
us out.

> IIRC, doesn't that short Kang cameo in TBolts say something about that he 
knows Graviton will lose from the history records? Wouldn't he have known 
that about Khan too?

Actually, it doesn't say anything of the sort.  Kang says "What an audacious 
gambit!  Give the fool his moment of glory.  The chaos he sows will work to 
the benefit  of Kang the Conqueror!"  If anything, Kang sounds *surprised* 
at Graviton's actions, yet confident they will amount to naught.

> we can avoid the question altogether if the X-Treme team was occupied. 
That's one of the reasons I placed Black Panther in the midst of the Kang 
War: the time-displacement keeps us from trying to ascertain what he was 
doing.

Well, that and he's busily fighting in a non-wrecked Washington DC  ;)  I 
think, regardless of your motivation, you placed it pretty accurately, what 
with Sue's cameo and Iron Man's armor to think of.

> Dead Men Running (which we haven't addressed yet)  almost certainly has 
to take place after the Kang War and not during.

Yeah, or before  well before.  I think I read Paul O'Brien say somewhere 
that it took place back during a time Cap was alive.  If he's reading this, 
maybe he can elaborate on that, and why he said it  and where he thinks it 
was placed.

>> (By the way, if I'm mistaken about there being no explanation for his 
return and no further mentions of his death, please let me know)

> No explanation that I'm aware of.

Good god, Marvel.  Ass, elbow.  Elbow, ass.

>> When the MU WTC was demolished in Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36, most folks 
on the boards cried out "out-of-continuity!" (mainly sue to the fact that 
Doctor Doom was crying, of all things),

> Well, there were other factors too, I think. Kingpin was blinded, Cyclops 
was using his eye-beams to weld, Magneto being crippled, Hawkeye being 
jailed... I think there was just too much of that stuff that couldn't be 
reconciled with everything else.

I think everyone simply forgot to overlook the idea that it might have 
happened A WHILE AGO  I mean, all these continuity problems (Kingpin 
being blind, Hawkeye in jail, Magneto crippled / dead) are relatively 
RECENT developments in the MU.  Just set the damned thing BEFORE they 
occurred (like, cough, I did) and the problems vanish.

And as for Cyke using his optic blasts to weld?  He wasn't  he was cutting 
through debris, just like Wolvie.

>> CA4 #1 cements the notion that there WAS in fact a Sept. 11 disaster in 
the Marvel Universe.

> Well, Captain America v4 #1 doesn't actually say it was the WTC or that 
it was on Sept. 11, I don't believe. There's definite mention of a tragedy 
and it's clearly referencing the real 9-11, but the book itself doesn't say 
that it is.

True  no names are mentioned.  But the clear presence of Muslim extremists 
listening to a news report and cheering on p.1-3 kind of eliminates Kang 
from being the author of the tragedy, don't you think?  Also, the fact that 
after the "disaster footage", the book's segue specifically says "seven 
months later" was kind of a clue given that it came out seven months after 
9/11.  If, as you thought, the disaster was from the Kang War, then we've 
suddenly got a 7-month gap in Cap's chronology to deal with that can't be 
filled by anything published yet  and, given Marvel Time, won't be filled 
up for years to come.

I think it works best if we fill those seven months with everything we've 
discussed so far and assume that the MU's version of the 9/11 disaster is 
the kick-off to all the terrible tragic shit the MU has had to deal with 
lately (the destruction of the WTC, the UN building, the population of DC, 
and the entire island of Genosha  this is more spontaneous carnage than 
we've seen in Marvel for years.  Scary, innit?)

>> I'm really starting to hate that gap. And, to be honest, like I said 
before, it's an IMAGINARY gap, really hidden between pages of A3 #45 itself, 
NOT between #45 and 46. This enormous gap is supposed to occur BEFORE the 
Master puts up his ring-walls in the final few pages of A3 #45! We haven't 
even FOUND this gap yet, and we keep shoveling more Avengers appearances 
INTO it

I looked for this issue in the store today, but I couldn't find it.  Sean 
(or anyone reading), can you look through it and try to find a gap, please?  
We really need this to work if we're going to keep building on it.

>> The UN building was destroyed by Kang in A3 #42  did this happen before 
or after the WTC disaster?  I suggest [putting the WTC disaster] in between 
A3 #40 and 41  if memory serves, there's a break there between the Enormous 
Greek Hulk Battle and Kang's first salvo.

> Hmmm. You know, you might actually be on to something here.

Well, Christ, I hope so.  I'm shooting blind here, Sean  if you have any of 
these books I'd appreciate a plausibility check on my behalf.  A lot of my 
suggestions will work, but they need to be fine-tuned to, for example, 
"between p.7-8 of TB #54" rather than "between TB #53 and 54"  and without 
all the books, I can't do it.

While I'm on it, a note about the "Order" series and the UN Building:  in 
today's "Avengers" #55, clean-up crews are working night and day, alllllmost 
finished rebuilding the UN (destroyed in #41 or 42).  But, if memory serves, 
"the Order" #2 featured the Order showing up at THE UN BUILDING to dictate 
terms and put a spell on the delegates.  Is this true?  Is my memory correct?  
If so, we have a problem.

Now, if the UN Building isn't shown, then we could assume that the Order 
showed up at some alternate delegate meeting spot.  But, on re-reading 
"Order" #3, She-Hulk's dialogue ("I drop everything to come help the Avengers 
with this Order business") makes it sound to me like she wasn't with the 
Avengers at the time.  As Kurt Busiek writes both books, I tend to think 
he knows what he's writing about, and I wonder if he has a specific time-
frame in mind for "Order" to take place in (like, well after the Kang War).  
I'm thinking we should ask him  he does reply to fan questions, but I have 
no idea which forum to reach him on.

(Of course it is possible for She-Hulk's "I dropped everything" comment to 
reflect that she was in France at the time, or the like  we did have the 
series between A3 #45-46, right?)

I guess I'm saying, be prepared for the notion that "Order" #1-6 takes place 
after the Kang War.  And be prepared to be able to point out which of our 
chronology assumptions are based on our current placement of that series, 
so we can change them.

> I'm willing to buy your 9-11 bit and you work out Cap's chronology pretty 
well too. I couldn't stand Morrison's and Casey's X-books, so the only 
X-stuff I've seen lately is Claremont's. I'll take your word for their 
appearances.

Okay  we'll leave what I did alone for now then, shall we?  Now, moving 
onto what YOU added (and at this rate we'll never get to anything new)

You give a whole long chronology for Iron Man and his armors.  Let me see 
if I understand it (both what you said last night and the stuff in your 
original post).  All non-IM titles are *starred:

IM3 #40  his armor (not too clear on which model this is, though) gets 
fried.
IM3 #41  dons retro armor (much as he used old armor after his post-Heroes 
Reborn suit gained sentience and flew away).
* D2 #1  his TV appearance here is in retro armor?  This wasn't clear from 
your post.
* A3 #41-43  he appears here in retro armor too, correct?
* A3 #44  retro armor, yet hasn't dropped out of sight yet  right?
IM3 #42-43  drops from public view, wears work-in-progress armor.  Cap and 
Goliath cameo.
* A3 #45  ref. Stark having "just" vanished, pre-Grell mask shown in 
background, Goliath become Yellowjacket.
*A:UI  Stark once again wears classic armor.
IM3 #44-49  wears "ugly armor".
IM3 #50  switches to so-called "Grell" armor.

and from there we're into the Imaginary Gap in A3 #45.  Now, Sean, you 
raised the point that Cap appears in IM3 #42 (which we have between A3 
#44-45), and yet Cap's a zombie during that period.  Obviously, then, 
IM3 #42-43 occur between pages of either A3 #44, or #45, either before or 
after Cap is zombified.  Before I can say more, though, I need more info 
about A3 #45  when did Hank become Yellowjacket?  When is the reference 
to Tony dropping from public view?  The IM3 issues need to occur BEFORE 
both of those things  so if Cap's a zombie when they occur, the IM3 issues 
must occur BEFORE he becomes a zombie  and therefore somewhere in A3 #44.

It's possible that IM3 #42-43 need to occur before ALL of A3 #44, rather 
than just between pages of it.  In this case, we have to assume that when 
Tony's around the Avengers, he ALWAYS wears his retro armor (as he does in 
A:UI), rather than expose teammates to potential malfunctions of his work-
in-progress armor.  This would explain his retro armor in A3 #44.

One more problem here  Tony is wearing his Ugly Armor in his cameo in TB #57, 
and we have the T-Bolts stuff occuring AFTER IM3 #50.  Now, just looking at 
our long long list from the other night, is there any reason why IM3 #50 is 
placed where it is?  (Originally, between A3 #45 and FF3 #51.)

(Crap  I just realized that I left FF3 #51-54 out of the monstrously long 
list.  Oops.)

Anyway  on our big list, we don't see Iron Man that much between IM3 #49 
and "Order" #2 (where he is into his Grell armor).  He shows up in T-Bolts 
#57 and Iron Man v3 #50  I believe that's it.  And given that he's in his 
ugly-ass armor in TB #57, I'd be inclined to swap IM3 #50 down a few pegs 
on the list (D2 #11, and TB #54-59), ending up lodged between TB #59 and 
D2 #12.

Unless there's a character-crossover problem with this change, I'm going 
ahead and making it on the list below.  Since you used IM3 #50's winter 
setting to place Johnny Storm's appearance in PPSM2 #7, I'm moving that 
down as well.  (I'm also adding FF3 #51-54 back on  arbitrarily between 
IM3 #49 and D2 #11, going on the premise that Nita's prolonged absence from 
FF might indicate that she was a captive of Attuma at the time  Johnny's 
PPSM appearance would then fall after FF3 #54 and TB #57, which works as 
well.)

By the way, where does the IM3 2001 annual take place?  Right now our list 
has it between IM3 #43 and 44  does that work?

Enough Iron man stuff -- moving on to Daredevil.  I agree  given that, as 
you say, the Kingpin has been blind for three months at the time of #26-34, 
the only place for it would be December onwards (please note mention of 
Osama in the newspaper, implying that it IS indeed after the MU 9/11)  and, 
through your premise that nothing else newsworthy is going on, that it must 
take place after the Kang War, I agree.  The exact placement is up to 
you  are there any DD/Murdock mentions in the newsroom in "Deadline"?  If 
not, I'd place it after that series.  (Which, for Spidey and the FF, places 
it before FF3 #55 and after ASM2 #44 and PPSM2 #39.)

Hulk:

> Banner shaves his head in Hulk #34 and continues with the skinhead look 
through #42 and counting. Since we see that his hair-length transfers to the 
Hulk, we've got to push these appearances at least as far back as Order #6. 
I'm inclined to push it out of the Kang War entirely (since feds and police 
aren't spending their time fighting Kang's forces) to after Avengers #54.

Agreed.  At the time "Defenders" v2 began, Hulk still had ALS  so if he was 
cured in H3 #32, the way we have it he was also cured in-between D2 #4 and 5.  
Now, D2 #5 has Samson talking with Bruce about how his disappearances are 
"playing havoc with [his] ALS treatments", which implies he's not actually 
cured by D2 #5.  On the other hand, Samson could have simply been referring 
to any number of post-cure check-ups and additional stabilizing treatments 
Bruce may have needed after his cure was administered.  Unless his ALS is 
mentioned in an even later Defenders issue (I only have #2, 5, and 11), I'm 
sticking with this explanation, and leaving H3 #32 where you put it, Sean.  
Would you mind checking through D2 #6-10 to see if any mention of the disease 
is made?

And, finally, since H3 #33 features the Hulk hanging around with Queen Divine 
Justice from the BP3 series, it needs to occur during a time when she still 
has access to cool Wakandn planes and stuff.  (Didn't she fly a plane in that 
issue, or something?)  Now, as I understand it she walked out on the Panther 
in BP3 #40, so H3 #33 has to take place before that.  We only have #41-up on 
our list below, but Queen Divine Justice is also unavailable for all of those 
issues  kidnapped by Vibraxas and time-displaced with the Panther.  So it 
still needs to occur BEFORE #40, and that means anywhere from FF3 #50 and D2 
#5 to "the Order" #6  but, given that it's the stupid Hulk, I'd place it 
BEFORE the Order series (working off of my theory that the Hulk's recent 
pursuit by authorities starting in #34 was, in part, precipitated by his 
actions as an Order member).  That's still a big gap, from D2 #5 to D2 #12, 
with all that comes in between.  That's as much as I can do for you, Sean, 
the rest is up to you.

The preceding paragraph was me talking completely out of my ass.  How'd I 
do?

As to your Spidey stuff, it all sounds perfectly solid.  Good catch on the 
"Deadline"/"PPSM" connection, and I agree with your placing of PPSM2 #37  
please note again that I left it in its relative place next to IM3 #50, even 
though I moved both issues up.  I'll leave the Spidey stuff up to you, as he 
barely intersects with the Kang War  I made my point about his 9/11 issue 
and now I'll leave his timeline to people who actually own the books.

Here comes the list again.  It's starting to get a bit unweidly, with me 
asking questions like "which comes first, the X-Men's Eve of Destruction or 
Thunderbolts #50-52?"  The correct answer is, who cares, they all happen 
concurrently.  I think we need to pare the list down into a big-ass master 
list of "Things What Have to Take Place Before or After Each Other", with 
a smaller specialized list of how various teams weave in and out.  To that 
end, when I finally do my X-books post (tonight?), I'll be pulling most of 
the stuff that doesn't matter and leaving in only things I need to make my 
points.  But, for now, it's the Big-Ass List, with changes *starred.  
Nothing new added, just stuff juggled around.  I'll actually add things 
next post (assuming I get time to breathe  arrgh.)

Avengers v3 #38 / X-Men #111-FB - Quicksilver leaves Genosha for the 
Avengers, Cap is interviewed about Magneto's upcoming gambits.
Thunderbolts #48-49  the team returns from Titan and captures Scourge, 
who spills the beans about the CSA/nanites plot.
Avengers v3 #39-40  the Avengers fight Diablo's Hulk-creating potion in 
Greece.
Amazing Spider-Man #30-32  J. Michael takes over and redefines Pete's 
life.
Fantastic Four v3 #40-44  the team adventures in the Negative Zone, Johnny 
loses control of his flame powers.
Uncanny X-Men #391  Cyclops heads back to the X-Men.
Captain America v4 #1  Sept. 11th.
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36  Sept. 11th.
X-Men Unlimited #36/2  Magneto liberates captive mutants, looking for 
soldiers.
X-Men #111  Magneto kidnaps Prof. X and heads to Genosha. Cap's interview 
airs.
Fantastic Four v3 #45  Reed is JUST dealing with Johnny's flame problem.
Uncanny X-Men #392-393, X-Men 112-113  Wolverine cripples Magneto in the 
"Eve of Destruction".
Thunderbolts #50-52  the team is pardoned, Hawkeye goes to jail. Cap 
starts training the Redeemers.
* Iron Man v3 #40-41  Iron Man's armor is fried and he pulls out the old 
model.
Defenders v2 #1-4  the Defenders are cursed, Valkyrie comes back in a 
fight with Pluto, Attuma conquers Atlantis.
Citizen V and the V-Battalion #1-3  the Battaltion deals with nanites in 
an Attuma-controlled Atlantis.
Fantastic Four Annual 2001  Galactus' head hits Times Square in the opening 
salvo of the Abraxas Saga.
Avengers v3 #41-43  Kang's own opening salvo knocks down the UN building, 
Attuma attacks Prince Edward Island using Atlantean troops.
Avengers Annual 2001  Hank Pym's doubled-up physiology is cured.
* Fantastic Four v3 #46-49  the Abraxas Saga.  Time resets, Sue is 
pregnant.
* Hulk #30-32 - Reed Richards and Scott Lang cure Banner of ALS. Appearances 
of Thing, She-Hulk and Doc Samson.
* Fantastic Four #50  the Nuff Said issue with Nita and She-Hulk.
* Defenders v2 #5  Namorita captured just prior to this, Doc Samson worries 
about Bruce's continuing recovery.
Avengers: Celestial Quest #1-8  I guess we're keeping this here, yes?
Infinity Abyss #1-6  the Defenders are still cursed, Hank Pym is still 
Goliath.
* Iron Man #42-43 - Testing of "demo" armor. Stark goes into hiding and 
builds new armor. Appearance of Goliath.
Avengers v3 #44-45  the Avengers fight the Presence, Cap is transformed 
into a zombie and back. Hank becomes Yellowjacket.
Thunderbolts #53-54  Cap finishes up with the Redeemers.
* Iron Man Annual 2001  Cap appears.  Where does this annual take place in 
IM's chronology?
Captain America v3 #45-50. Cap does stuff, then "dies."
New X-Men #114-116  the Genoshan tragedy, Cassandra Nova outs the X-Men.
Avengers: the Ultron Imperative  Hawkeye is released and returned to 
prison.
* Iron Man v3 #44-49 - Introduction of new, ugly armor, Tony fights Ultron 
in a sequel to A:UI.
* Fantastic Four v3 #51-54  the Inhumans seek shelter, Sue gives birth.
Defenders v2 #11  Atlantis is freed, as is Nita.
Thunderbolts #54-59  Graviton kidnaps all the heroes and lifts all the 
cities. (Maybe this is when/how the Master gets his idea to put ring-walls 
around them all)
* Iron Man v3 #50  Tony's new ("Grell") armor. Also, if it really is 
Christmas here, then maybe CA3 #50/1 takes place here too.
* Peter Parker #37 - It's snowing really hard. Human Torch appearance. 
Defenders v2 #12  the pact is made that transforms the Defenders into 
the Order.
* The Order #1-6  the Avengers and the X-Men keep the Order from taking 
over the Earth. She-Hulk "drops everything" to help and the Order goes after 
the UN, wherever they are meeting.
Black Panther v3 #41-46  these issues feature a not-in-hiding President 
Bush and a non-destroyed Washington DC.  Panther is zapped into the past 
and unavailable to fight Kang.
Avengers #45-54. Kang attacks the world, conquers the US, but is defeated.
Amazing Spider-Man #43-44  Dr. Strange is back and free of the Defenders' 
Curse.
* Avengers v3 #55  as this takes place "three weeks after" Kang is defeated, 
I'm placing some other stuff between it and #54.  The UN building is almost 
rebuilt this issue.
* Deadline #1 - Human Torch appearance, no news mentions of Kang war aftermath 
leads me to place it after A3 #55.
Peter Parker #38-39 - Nuff said issue with mimes (funny!) and Spidey vs. Doc 
Ock.
Deadline #2 ~ Peter Parker #39 - rooftop battle between Spidey and Doc Ock.
* Deadline #3-4  the series wraps, no other newsworthy things going on at 
the paper.
* Daredevil #26-34 - Matt Murdock revealed to be Daredevil. Cameos by Spidey, 
FF, and Elektra (in London).
Hulk #34-42 - Banner shaves head and is on the lamb.  (Heh.  "On the 'lamb'."  
Sorry.)
Captain America v4 #1-3  Cap fights terror in a post-Kang USA, unmasks.
* Fantastic Four #55-59  Reed comments that the FF "have been busy" lately 
in #58, implying a RECENT involvement with the Kang War?  If that's the case, 
I'm putting all five issues before their celebratory parade in "Freakshow".
Thing: Freakshow #1
Iron Man v3 #51-56

Cripes.

What's left?  Well, I have to shovel a boatload of X-books in between the 
Genoshan tragedy and the "Order" series (as I've changed my mind about 
Cassandra's presence), and we still have to figure out precisely where D2 
#6-10, H3 #33 and BP3 #40 fit into the mix between H2 #32 and BP3 #41.  
ASM2 #33-35 and 37-42 also need to go in there somewhere, and I've got no 
idea how.  I don't think I ever will, and aside from Spidey's cameo in A3 
#51 I don't think it matters much.

My next post will deal with the X-books and their links to all this and each 
other.  feel free to reply/rebut anything I just said, but I won't be 
debating any of it until I'm done with the mutant stuff.  (I'm really hoping 
you choose to just blanket agree with all of it  I really proposed very 
little new in here and I'm not sure if it merits a full-length reply.)

Wish me luck!  I'm having loads of fun throwing this ever-growing ball back 
and forth.

This goddamned Kang War, eh?

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Quick notes about Spidey and Thor
Posted by Jeph! on July 03, 2002 at 21:31:02:
In Reply to: My turn -- mostly polishing.  Kang war, take eight...
posted by Jeph! on July 03, 2002 at 18:22:10:

Two quick things I noticed upon re-reading the whole thread:

> Amazing Spider-Man #43-44  Dr. Strange is back and free of the Defenders' 
Curse.

This should read as issues #41-42.  Whoops.  #43-44 have yet to come out.

And, it's worth noting that the entirety of "Thor" v2 #39-50 ALL take place 
AFTER "Avengers" v3 #55!  The whole damned run!  And here I was worried about 
moving X-books around by three or four months ... eeesh.

	-Jeph!
...what, Sean, no reply yet?  ;)

			*	*	*

Spidey, Cap, plus some more tweaking
Posted by SKleefeld on July 04, 2002 at 12:21:00:
In Reply to: My turn -- mostly polishing.  Kang war, take eight...
posted by Jeph! on July 03, 2002 at 18:22:10:

> This just gets worse and worse.

You know what kills me is that this started out as a problem with the Kang 
War itself. And every time I look back to it, we've got the Kang War pretty 
self-contained and are dancing around all this other crap!

> By the way, I give up on this italic, multicolored post stuff.  I just 
can't do the html -- sorry, but I'm gonna have to stick to caps and carriage-
returns to make my important points stand out.

No sweat. I'm doing this almost more for my own sanity than anything else.

> I think it works best if we fill those seven months with everything we've 
discussed so far and assume that the MU's version of the 9/11 disaster is 
the kick-off to all the terrible tragic shit the MU has had to deal with 
lately (the destruction of the WTC, the UN building, the population of DC, 
and the entire island of Genosha  this is more spontaneous carnage than 
we've seen in Marvel for years.  Scary, innit?)

And, as you pointed out, it's mostly Busiek's fault. Talk about going out 
with a bang!

> I looked for this issue in the store today, but I couldn't find it.  Sean 
(or anyone reading), can you look through it and try to find a gap, please?  
We really need this to work if we're going to keep building on it.

Actually Avengers #45 is insanely useful because we have loads of potential 
gaps. Here's the page breakdown...
pp 1- 5: Kang rallying his forces in the 40th century
pp 6 - 8: Cap, Thor, Wasp and Firebired meet with a Gen. McGinty in 
Washington. Thor storms off. Cap also mentions that most of the team have 
a few days of R&R
pp 9 - 12: Avengers Mansion. Wanda video-conferences with Kro. Cameo of 
Iron Man. Hank walks in as Yellowjacket for the first time. Triathlon, 
Vision, Warbird and Jack of Hearts talk about the Triune Understanding
pp 13 - 14. Firebird talks with Thor on the Jefferson Memorial
pp 15 - 17. Triathlon, Vision, Warbird & Jack of Hearts finish talking and 
go out for a night on the town. Quicksilver watches them leave.
pp 18 - 22. Cap and Wasp are talking with McGinty when the Master suddenly 
throws up his walls around DC

So any time we have a change of scene, there's a potential gap. It reads as 
if it's supposed to run seamlessly, but what if it took Firebird several 
days to track down Thor? Or after their initial talk, Cap and Wasp return 
to meet with McGinty several days later? It's not an ideal solution, in 
any event, but we've got some options to work with. 

> While I'm on it, a note about the "Order" series and the UN Building:  in 
today's "Avengers" #55, clean-up crews are working night and day, alllllmost 
finished rebuilding the UN (destroyed in #41 or 42).  But, if memory serves, 
"the Order" #2 featured the Order showing up at THE UN BUILDING to dictate 
terms and put a spell on the delegates.  Is this true?  Is my memory correct?  
If so, we have a problem.

I just double checked. It happens at a  UN Security Council meeting in the 
Hague, Netherlands. PHEW!

> Now, if the UN Building isn't shown, then we could assume that the Order 
showed up at some alternate delegate meeting spot.  But, on re-reading "Order" 
#3, She-Hulk's dialogue ("I drop everything to come help the Avengers with 
this Order business") makes it sound to me like she wasn't with the Avengers 
at the time.  As Kurt Busiek writes both books, I tend to think he knows 
what he's writing about, and I wonder if he has a specific time-frame in mind 
for "Order" to take place in (like, well after the Kang War).  I'm thinking 
we should ask him  he does reply to fan questions, but I have no idea which 
forum to reach him on.

I figured on waiting until we had a REALLY obnoxious list, and then daring 
him and Tom Brevoort to find a problem with it.  :)

I've got both their e-mails, though, so I'll try to coerce them over here.

> I guess I'm saying, be prepared for the notion that "Order" #1-6 takes 
place after the Kang War.  And be prepared to be able to point out which of 
our chronology assumptions are based on our current placement of that series, 
so we can change them.

I don't know that we can put The Order that far back. Triathlon goes all 3-D 
and leaves entirely at the end of Avengers #54, and I think there were a 
couple of similar character references that kept it from working afterwards.

> You give a whole long chronology for Iron Man and his armors.  Let me see 
if I understand it (both what you said last night and the stuff in your 
original post).  All non-IM titles are *starred:

> IM3 #40  his armor (not too clear on which model this is, though) gets 
fried.

His armor was drawn very... ah... flexibly throughout the dozen or so 
preceding issues. It's hard to tell what the darn thing actually looks 
like.

> IM3 #41  dons retro armor (much as he used old armor after his post-Heroes 
Reborn suit gained sentience and flew away).
> * D2 #1  his TV appearance here is in retro armor?  This wasn't clear from 
your post.

Correct. Sorry for the confusion.

> * A3 #41-43  he appears here in retro armor too, correct?
> * A3 #44  retro armor, yet hasn't dropped out of sight yet  right?

Correct on both counts.

> IM3 #42-43  drops from public view, wears work-in-progress armor.  Cap 
and Goliath cameo.
> * A3 #45  ref. Stark having "just" vanished, pre-Grell mask shown in 
background, Goliath become Yellowjacket.

You know, I'm having the darnest time tracking down that reference to Stark 
having vanished. I can picture it in my head: Wasp and Stark standing in 
front of a viewscreen, Stark wearing shades, gorgeous Alan Davis art. Can't 
find it any more though.

> and from there we're into the Imaginary Gap in A3 #45.  Now, Sean, you 
raised the point that Cap appears in IM3 #42 (which we have between A3 
#44-45), and yet Cap's a zombie during that period.  Obviously, then, IM3 
#42-43 occur between pages of either A3 #44, or #45, either before or after 
Cap is zombified.  Before I can say more, though, I need more info about A3 
#45  when did Hank become Yellowjacket?  When is the reference to Tony 
dropping from public view?  The IM3 issues need to occur BEFORE both of 
those things  so if Cap's a zombie when they occur, the IM3 issues must 
occur BEFORE he becomes a zombie  and therefore somewhere in A3 #44.

Sorry! Confusion on my part. Cap was a zombie between #43 and #44. At the 
end of #44, he's hauled off in a paddywagon. At the beginning of #45, he's 
bandaged up and in DC. We're OK here.

> It's possible that IM3 #42-43 need to occur before ALL of A3 #44, rather 
than just between pages of it.  In this case, we have to assume that when 
Tony's around the Avengers, he ALWAYS wears his retro armor (as he does in 
A:UI), rather than expose teammates to potential malfunctions of his work-
in-progress armor.  This would explain his retro armor in A3 #44.

I found another potential problem with armor switching. I'll bring that up 
in a moment

> Anyway  on our big list, we don't see Iron Man that much between IM3 #49 
and "Order" #2 (where he is into his Grell armor).  He shows up in T-Bolts 
#57 and Iron Man v3 #50  I believe that's it.  And given that he's in his 
ugly-ass armor in TB #57, I'd be inclined to swap IM3 #50 down a few pegs 
on the list (D2 #11, and TB #54-59), ending up lodged between TB #59 and 
D2 #12.

I agree.

> Unless there's a character-crossover problem with this change, I'm going 
ahead and making it on the list below.  Since you used IM3 #50's winter 
setting to place Johnny Storm's appearance in PPSM2 #7, I'm moving that 
down as well.  (I'm also adding FF3 #51-54 back on  arbitrarily between 
IM3 #49 and D2 #11, going on the premise that Nita's prolonged absence from 
FF might indicate that she was a captive of Attuma at the time  Johnny's 
PPSM appearance would then fall after FF3 #54 and TB #57, which works as 
well.)

> By the way, where does the IM3 2001 annual take place?  Right now our 
list has it between IM3 #43 and 44  does that work?

> Enough Iron man stuff -- moving on to Daredevil.  I agree  given that, 
as you say, the Kingpin has been blind for three months at the time of 
#26-34, the only place for it would be December onwards (please note mention 
of Osama in the newspaper, implying that it IS indeed after the MU 9/11)  
and, through your premise that nothing else newsworthy is going on, that it 
must take place after the Kang War, I agree.  The exact placement is up to 
you  are there any DD/Murdock mentions in the newsroom in "Deadline"?  If 
not, I'd place it after that series.  (Which, for Spidey and the FF, places 
it before FF3 #55 and after ASM2 #44 and PPSM2 #39.)

The only significant cross-references in Daredevil so far are some Elekrta 
appearances, and those only help to coincide with her (mostly) self-contained 
title. Nothing in Deadline. Peter Parker and Ben Urich appear in DD but I 
don't see anything to help out with their respective chronologies.

> Hulk:

> > Banner shaves his head in Hulk #34 and continues with the skinhead look 
through #42 and counting. Since we see that his hair-length transfers to the 
Hulk, we've got to push these appearances at least as far back as Order #6. 
I'm inclined to push it out of the Kang War entirely (since feds and police 
aren't spending their time fighting Kang's forces) to after Avengers #54.

> Agreed.  At the time "Defenders" v2 began, Hulk still had ALS  so if he 
was cured in H3 #32, the way we have it he was also cured in-between D2 #4 
and 5.  Now, D2 #5 has Samson talking with Bruce about how his disappearances 
are "playing havoc with [his] ALS treatments", which implies he's not actually 
cured by D2 #5.  On the other hand, Samson could have simply been referring to 
any number of post-cure check-ups and additional stabilizing treatments Bruce 
may have needed after his cure was administered.  Unless his ALS is mentioned 
in an even later Defenders issue (I only have #2, 5, and 11), I'm sticking 
with this explanation, and leaving H3 #32 where you put it, Sean.  Would you 
mind checking through D2 #6-10 to see if any mention of the disease is made?

Well, no mention of ALS per se, but Hulk is reverted to a coughing Dr. Banner 
in #6. Now since Hulk #30 has Banner all but dead, I think we'll have to 
move Defenders #6-10 to right after #5, but before Hulk #30. Consequently, 
we'll have to juggle some FF issues as well. So that portion would be...

Fantastic Four #46-49
Defenders #5-10
Hulk #30-32
Fantastic Four #50

There's some BRIEF cameos by Spidey, Thor and the FF in the Orrgo issues of 
Defenders but they're wiped out from reality at the end of that story.

> And, finally, since H3 #33 features the Hulk hanging around with Queen 
Divine Justice from the BP3 series, it needs to occur during a time when 
she still has access to cool Wakandn planes and stuff.  (Didn't she fly a 
plane in that issue, or something?)  Now, as I understand it she walked out 
on the Panther in BP3 #40, so H3 #33 has to take place before that.  We only 
have #41-up on our list below, but Queen Divine Justice is also unavailable 
for all of those issues  kidnapped by Vibraxas and time-displaced with the 
Panther.  So it still needs to occur BEFORE #40, and that means anywhere 
from FF3 #50 and D2 #5 to "the Order" #6  but, given that it's the stupid 
Hulk, I'd place it BEFORE the Order series (working off of my theory that 
the Hulk's recent pursuit by authorities starting in #34 was, in part, 
precipitated by his actions as an Order member).  That's still a big gap, 
from D2 #5 to D2 #12, with all that comes in between.  That's as much as I 
can do for you, Sean, the rest is up to you.

Geez, no pressure or anything!  :)

Fortunately, I took a look at some other stuff that I'll get to in a moment.

> The preceding paragraph was me talking completely out of my ass.  How'd I 
do?

Not bad, really. With all the stuff getting thrown around here, I'm amazed 
either of us can keep any of it straight.

> Here comes the list again.  It's starting to get a bit unweidly, with me 
asking questions like "which comes first, the X-Men's Eve of Destruction or 
Thunderbolts #50-52?"  The correct answer is, who cares, they all happen 
concurrently.  I think we need to pare the list down into a big-ass master 
list of "Things What Have to Take Place Before or After Each Other", with a 
smaller specialized list of how various teams weave in and out.  To that 
end, when I finally do my X-books post (tonight?), I'll be pulling most of 
the stuff that doesn't matter and leaving in only things I need to make my 
points.  But, for now, it's the Big-Ass List, with changes *starred.  Nothing 
new added, just stuff juggled around.  I'll actually add things next post 
(assuming I get time to breathe  arrgh.)

I'm going to keep working with the BAL here, because I think there's a lot 
of little bits that provide that one insight into how this all fits together.

Before we get to that, though, I'll add my new bits. 

Captain America is a bit of a problem. OK, #50 has a Christmas scene, so we 
tag that near other X-Mas references. But it gets ugly from there. At the 
funeral, we see Iron Man in something that sort of looks like that ugly 
armor, but has some extra nobby bits. I'm assuming that's artistic license, 
which means that CA #50 occurs before the debut of the Grell armor in IM #50. 
CA #45-48 features many Avengers both in current time and in flashbacks. It 
also features our good friend, Namor, in both. The added problem is the Iron 
Man shown in Cap has the ugly armor on, but the flashback -- which is listed 
as only five days, 10 hours prior -- shows him in the classic armor. So that 
means we have to put the flashback portions of the story immediately after 
(or around) Ultron Imperative and the main portions after IM #45. But since 
Namor appears in the flashback -- apparently as sovereign of Atlantis -- we 
have to move Defenders #11 up a bit. Cap #49 is pretty amiguous, thankfully, 
and we can drop that in just before #50.

Black Panther. #34-35 feature a still-cursed Defenders at the Sanctum 
Sanctorum. #36-37 are out of contunity. #38-40 feature Iron Fist, concluding 
with his gaining his powers back. #38-40 ought to happen before Iron Fist's 
appearance in T-Bolts. Why would a non-powered Iron Fist be a threat to 
Graviton? #34-35 seem to work as a decent prelude to Defenders #12. The only 
potential problem is that Namor is wearing his black Order garb in Panther.

Amazing Spider-Man. The Morlun story starts right after Peter Parker finishes 
his work day as a teacher (#32) and ends the next day at around 4:30 pm (#35). 
#36 is already placed. #37 appears to be the next day, although it could be as 
much as several days after #35. #38 immediately follows and last about 3 
hours. So we're only looking at a 48-hour period or so. The ONLY reference I 
could find to anything that might help is that Aunt May talks about putting 
her winter clothes away and getting ready for summer. So, sometime after Peter 
Parker #37. There are plenty of skyline and skyscraper shots, so I'd want to 
put this at the start of the Kang War. I'd think we'd be seeing a lot more 
collateral damage if we were looking at the aftermath of it. 

So, here's what I've currently got for the BAL...

> Avengers v3 #38 / X-Men #111-FB - Quicksilver leaves Genosha for the 
Avengers, Cap is interviewed about Magneto's upcoming gambits.
> Thunderbolts #48-49  the team returns from Titan and captures Scourge, 
who spills the beans about the CSA/nanites plot.
> Avengers v3 #39-40  the Avengers fight Diablo's Hulk-creating potion in 
Greece.
> Amazing Spider-Man #30-31  J. Michael takes over and redefines Pete's 
life.
> Fantastic Four v3 #40-44  the team adventures in the Negative Zone, 
Johnny loses control of his flame powers.
> Uncanny X-Men #391  Cyclops heads back to the X-Men.
> Captain America v4 #1  Sept. 11th.
> Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36  Sept. 11th.
> X-Men Unlimited #36/2  Magneto liberates captive mutants, looking 
for soldiers.
> X-Men #111  Magneto kidnaps Prof. X and heads to Genosha. Cap's 
interview airs.
> Fantastic Four v3 #45  Reed is JUST dealing with Johnny's flame 
problem.
> Uncanny X-Men #392-393, X-Men 112-113  Wolverine cripples Magneto in 
the "Eve of Destruction".
> Thunderbolts #50-52  the team is pardoned, Hawkeye goes to jail. Cap 
starts training the Redeemers.
> * Iron Man v3 #40-41  Iron Man's armor is fried and he pulls out the 
old model.
> Defenders v2 #1-4  the Defenders are cursed, Valkyrie comes back in a 
fight with Pluto, Attuma conquers Atlantis.
> Citizen V and the V-Battalion #1-3  the Battaltion deals with nanites 
in an Attuma-controlled Atlantis.
> Fantastic Four Annual 2001  Galactus' head hits Times Square in the 
opening salvo of the Abraxas Saga.
> Avengers v3 #41-43  Kang's own opening salvo knocks down the UN 
building, Attuma attacks Prince Edward Island using Atlantean troops.
> Avengers Annual 2001  Hank Pym's doubled-up physiology is cured.

Avengers v3 #44 -- Juggled forward to accomodate Thor's various appearances 
in Defenders, Infinity Abyss and Celestial Quest. Cap reverted back from 
zombie form.

> * Fantastic Four v3 #46-49  the Abraxas Saga.  Time resets, Sue is 
pregnant.

 * Defenders v2 #5 - Namorita captured just prior to this, Doc Samson 
worries about Bruce's continuing recovery.
Defenders #6 -- Bruce Banner appearance
Defenders #7-10

> * Hulk #30-32 - Reed Richards and Scott Lang cure Banner of ALS. Appearances 
of Thing, She-Hulk and Doc Samson.
> * Fantastic Four #50  the Nuff Said issue with Nita and She-Hulk.
> Avengers: Celestial Quest #1-8 - I guess we're keeping this here, yes?

 * Iron Man #42-43 - Testing of "demo" armor. Stark goes into hiding and 
builds new armor. Appearance of Goliath. I moved this after Celestial Quest 
so we could have an empty Avengers Mansion for #43.

> Infinity Abyss #1-6 - the Defenders are still cursed, Hank Pym is still 
Goliath.

 Avengers-45 pp 1-17  Hank becomes Yellowjacket. Bandaged Cap meets McGinty 
in DC

> Thunderbolts #53-54  Cap finishes up with the Redeemers.
> New X-Men #114-116  the Genoshan tragedy, Cassandra Nova outs the X-Men.
> Avengers: the Ultron Imperative  Hawkeye is released and returned to 
prison.

 Defenders v2 #11 - Atlantis is freed, as is Nita. Moved forward to accomodate 
Namor's appearance in Cap
Captain America #45-48 flashbacks - Iron Man in classic armor. Namor 
appearance

> * Iron Man v3 #44-45 - Introduction of new, ugly armor, 

Captain America #45-48 - Honorarium for Bucky. Iron Man in ugly armor

> * Iron Man v3 #46-49 -  Tony fights Ultron in a sequel to A:UI.

Black Panther #34-35 - Cursed Defenders appearance. Ends with them blipping 
out.
Hulk #33 -- As good a place as any for the moment.
Black Panther #38-40 - Iron First regains his powers

> * Fantastic Four v3 #51-54  the Inhumans seek shelter, Sue gives birth.
> Thunderbolts #54-59  Graviton kidnaps all the heroes and lifts all the 
cities. (Maybe this is when/how the Master gets his idea to put ring-walls 
around them all)

Captain America #49-50 - Cap goes fishing, meets with Sharon Carter, dies, 
has funeral. X-Mas reference

> * Iron Man v3 #50  Tony's new ("Grell") armor. Christmas 
> * Peter Parker #37 - It's snowing really hard. Human Torch appearance. 
> Defenders v2 #12  the pact is made that transforms the Defenders into the 
Order.
> * The Order #1-6  the Avengers and the X-Men keep the Order from taking 
over the Earth. She-Hulk "drops everything" to help and the Order goes after 
the UN, wherever they are meeting.
> Black Panther v3 #41-46  these issues feature a not-in-hiding President 
Bush and a non-destroyed Washington DC.  Panther is zapped into the past and 
unavailable to fight Kang.

Amazing Spider-Man #32-38 - Spidey vs Morlun. Aunt May finds out Peter is 
SpiderMan

> Avengers #45 pp 18+ thru 54. Kang attacks the world, conquers the US, but 
is defeated.

Amazing Spider-Man #39-42 -- Dr. Strange appearance

> * Avengers v3 #55  as this takes place "three weeks after" Kang is 
defeated, I'm placing some other stuff between it and #54.  The UN building 
is almost rebuilt this issue.
> * Deadline #1 - Human Torch appearance, no news mentions of Kang war 
aftermath leads me to place it after A3 #55.

 Peter Parker #38-40 - Nuff said issue with mimes (funny!) and Spidey vs. 
Doc Ock.
 Deadline #2 ~ Peter Parker #41 - rooftop battle between Spidey and Doc Ock. 
No changes of intent here, just fixing some issue number typos on my part

> * Deadline #3-4  the series wraps, no other newsworthy things going on at 
the paper.
> * Daredevil #26-27

Elektra #6 - I only put it on the BAL since it leads directly into DD #28.

Daredevil 28-31

Elektra #7-9 -- Elektra in Crete. (Well, I had the issues out anyway!)

Daredevil 32-34- Matt Murdock revealed to be Daredevil. Cameos by Spidey, 
FF, and Elektra (in London).<br>> Hulk #34-42 - Banner shaves head and is on 
the lamb.  (Heh.  "On the 'lamb'."  Sorry.)
> Captain America v4 #1-3  Cap fights terror in a post-Kang USA, unmasks.
> * Fantastic Four #55-59  Reed comments that the FF "have been busy" lately 
in #58, implying a RECENT involvement with the Kang War?  If that's the case, 
I'm putting all five issues before their celebratory parade in "Freakshow".
> Thing: Freakshow #1
> Iron Man v3 #51-56

Elektra 10-11 -- Lot of flashbacks to her doing some world travelling, so 
this would need to be pushed down aways to tie in with her appearance in DD

> Cripes.

And then some!

> What's left?  Well, I have to shovel a boatload of X-books in between the 
Genoshan tragedy and the "Order" series (as I've changed my mind about 
Cassandra's presence), and we still have to figure out precisely where D2 
#6-10, H3 #33 and BP3 #40 fit into the mix between H2 #32 and BP3 #41.  
ASM2 #33-35 and 37-42 also need to go in there somewhere, and I've got no 
idea how.  I don't think I ever will, and aside from Spidey's cameo in A3 
#51 I don't think it matters much.

I think I've got all that I can out of that. We're still missing a handful 
of Peter Parker, Dead Men Running, and Thor. Perhaps some other limiteds, 
but my offhand guess is that those could all be dropped more conveniently 
after the Kang War's long over.

> Wish me luck!  I'm having loads of fun throwing this ever-growing ball 
back and forth.

Me too.

> This goddamned Kang War, eh?

No, I've seen the light now. It's that goddamned Kurt Busiek!  :)

-- Sean

			*	*	*

More problems...
Posted by SKleefeld on July 04, 2002 at 18:53:00:
In Reply to: Spidey, Cap, plus some more tweaking
posted by SKleefeld on July 04, 2002 at 12:21:00:

> > By the way, where does the IM3 2001 annual take place?  Right now our 
list has it between IM3 #43 and 44  does that work?

Forgot to check this earlier. Iron Man is in the pre-Grell armor here. Also 
appearances by Thor, Vision, Warbird, Wasp, Scarlet Witch, and Cap. We'll 
need to push it back until after IM #45. 

> Well, no mention of ALS per se, but Hulk is reverted to a coughing Dr. 
Banner in #6. Now since Hulk #30 has Banner all but dead, I think we'll 
have to move Defenders #6-10 to right after #5, but before Hulk #30. 
Consequently, we'll have to juggle some FF issues as well. So that portion 
would be...

> Fantastic Four #46-49
> Defenders #5-10
> Hulk #30-32
> Fantastic Four #50

> There's some BRIEF cameos by Spidey, Thor and the FF in the Orrgo issues 
of Defenders but they're wiped out from reality at the end of that story.

Crud! I forgot Nita was in FF #50. We could just bring FF #50 up to right 
after #49, but I like the idea of She-Hulk stopping by with Bruce to cure 
his ALS, and then hanging around for Sue's obgyn visit. But we can't bring 
Hulk up as well, since that runs counter to Bruce's appearance in Defenders. 
I'm inclined to push FF #50 back farther until after Nita's rescue. I'm 
also pushing back Banner's cure so that he pretty much is sick throughout 
the entire Defenders series.

> So, here's what I've currently got for the BAL...

> > Avengers v3 #38 / X-Men #111-FB - Quicksilver leaves Genosha for the 
Avengers, Cap is interviewed about Magneto's upcoming gambits.
> > Thunderbolts #48-49  the team returns from Titan and captures Scourge, 
who spills the beans about the CSA/nanites plot.
> > Avengers v3 #39-40  the Avengers fight Diablo's Hulk-creating potion 
in Greece.
> > Amazing Spider-Man #30-31  J. Michael takes over and redefines Pete's 
life.
> > Fantastic Four v3 #40-44  the team adventures in the Negative Zone, 
Johnny loses control of his flame powers.
> > Uncanny X-Men #391  Cyclops heads back to the X-Men.
> > Captain America v4 #1  Sept. 11th.
> > Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36  Sept. 11th.
> > X-Men Unlimited #36/2  Magneto liberates captive mutants, looking for 
soldiers.
> > X-Men #111  Magneto kidnaps Prof. X and heads to Genosha. Cap's 
interview airs.
> > Fantastic Four v3 #45  Reed is JUST dealing with Johnny's flame 
problem.
> > Uncanny X-Men #392-393, X-Men 112-113  Wolverine cripples Magneto 
in the "Eve of Destruction".
> > Thunderbolts #50-52  the team is pardoned, Hawkeye goes to jail. 
Cap starts training the Redeemers.
> > * Iron Man v3 #40-41  Iron Man's armor is fried and he pulls out 
the old model.
> > Defenders v2 #1-4  the Defenders are cursed, Valkyrie comes back in 
a fight with Pluto, Attuma conquers Atlantis.
> > Citizen V and the V-Battalion #1-3  the Battaltion deals with nanites 
in an Attuma-controlled Atlantis.
> > Fantastic Four Annual 2001  Galactus' head hits Times Square in the 
opening salvo of the Abraxas Saga.
> > Avengers v3 #41-43  Kang's own opening salvo knocks down the UN 
building, Attuma attacks Prince Edward Island using Atlantean troops.
> > Avengers Annual 2001  Hank Pym's doubled-up physiology is cured.
> Avengers v3 #44 -- Juggled forward to accomodate Thor's various appearances 
in Defenders, Infinity Abyss and Celestial Quest. Cap reverted back from 
zombie form.
> > * Fantastic Four v3 #46-49  the Abraxas Saga.  Time resets, Sue is 
pregnant.
>  * Defenders v2 #5 - Namorita captured just prior to this, Doc Samson 
worries about Bruce's continuing recovery.
> Defenders #6 -- Bruce Banner appearance
> Defenders #7-10
> > Avengers: Celestial Quest #1-8 - I guess we're keeping this here, yes?
>  * Iron Man #42-43 - Testing of "demo" armor. Stark goes into hiding and 
builds new armor. Appearance of Goliath. I moved this after Celestial Quest so 
we could have an empty Avengers Mansion for #43.
> > Infinity Abyss #1-6 - the Defenders are still cursed, Hank Pym is still 
Goliath.
>  Avengers-45 pp 1-17  Hank becomes Yellowjacket. Bandaged Cap meets 
McGinty in DC
> > Thunderbolts #53-54  Cap finishes up with the Redeemers.
> > New X-Men #114-116  the Genoshan tragedy, Cassandra Nova outs the X-Men.
> > Avengers: the Ultron Imperative  Hawkeye is released and returned to 
prison.
>  Defenders v2 #11 - Atlantis is freed, as is Nita. Moved forward to 
accomodate Namor's appearance in Cap

* Hulk #30-32 - Reed Richards and Scott Lang cure Banner of ALS. Appearances 
of Thing, She-Hulk and Doc Samson.
> > * Fantastic Four #50 - the Nuff Said issue with Nita and She-Hulk.

> Captain America #45-48 flashbacks - Iron Man in classic armor. Namor 
appearance
> > * Iron Man v3 #44-45 - Introduction of new, ugly armor, 
> Captain America #45-48 - Honorarium for Bucky. Iron Man in ugly armor

Iron Man Annual 2001 -- Avengers appearance

> > * Iron Man v3 #46-49 -  Tony fights Ultron in a sequel to A:UI.
> Black Panther #34-35 - Cursed Defenders appearance. Ends with them 
blipping out.
> Hulk #33 -- As good a place as any for the moment.
> Black Panther #38-40 - Iron First regains his powers
> > * Fantastic Four v3 #51-54  the Inhumans seek shelter, Sue gives birth.
> > Thunderbolts #54-59  Graviton kidnaps all the heroes and lifts all the 
cities. (Maybe this is when/how the Master gets his idea to put ring-walls 
around them all)
> Captain America #49-50 - Cap goes fishing, meets with Sharon Carter, dies, 
has funeral. X-Mas reference
> > * Iron Man v3 #50  Tony's new ("Grell") armor. Christmas 
> > * Peter Parker #37 - It's snowing really hard. Human Torch appearance. 
> > Defenders v2 #12  the pact is made that transforms the Defenders into 
the Order.
> > * The Order #1-6  the Avengers and the X-Men keep the Order from taking 
over the Earth. She-Hulk "drops everything" to help and the Order goes after 
the UN, wherever they are meeting.
> > Black Panther v3 #41-46  these issues feature a not-in-hiding President 
Bush and a non-destroyed Washington DC.  Panther is zapped into the past and 
unavailable to fight Kang.
> Amazing Spider-Man #32-38 - Spidey vs Morlun. Aunt May finds out Peter is 
SpiderMan
> > Avengers #45 pp 18+ thru 54. Kang attacks the world, conquers the US, 
but is defeated.
> Amazing Spider-Man #39-42 -- Dr. Strange appearance
> > * Avengers v3 #55  as this takes place "three weeks after" Kang is 
defeated, I'm placing some other stuff between it and #54.  The UN building 
is almost rebuilt this issue.
> > * Deadline #1 - Human Torch appearance, no news mentions of Kang war 
aftermath leads me to place it after A3 #55.
>  Peter Parker #38-40 - Nuff said issue with mimes (funny!) and Spidey vs. 
Doc Ock.
> > Deadline #2 ~ Peter Parker #41 - rooftop battle between Spidey and Doc 
Ock. No changes of intent here, just fixing some issue number typos on my 
part
> > * Deadline #3-4  the series wraps, no other newsworthy things going on 
at the paper.
> > * Daredevil #26-27
> Elektra #6 - I only put it on the BAL since it leads directly into DD #28.
> Daredevil 28-31
> Elektra #7-9 -- Elektra in Crete. (Well, I had the issues out anyway!)
> Daredevil 32-34- Matt Murdock revealed to be Daredevil. Cameos by Spidey, 
FF, and Elektra (in London).
> > Hulk #34-42 - Banner shaves head and is on the lamb.  (Heh.  "On the 
'lamb'."  Sorry.)
> > Captain America v4 #1-3  Cap fights terror in a post-Kang USA, unmasks.
> > * Fantastic Four #55-59  Reed comments that the FF "have been busy" lately 
in #58, implying a RECENT involvement with the Kang War?  If that's the case, 
I'm putting all five issues before their celebratory parade in "Freakshow".
> > Thing: Freakshow #1
> > Iron Man v3 #51-56
> Elektra 10-11 -- Lot of flashbacks to her doing some world travelling, 
so this would need to be pushed down aways to tie in with her appearance 
in DD
> -- Sean

			*	*	*

Oy Vey! A Note from Busiek
Posted by SKleefeld on July 05, 2002 at 07:37:37:
In Reply to: More problems...
posted by SKleefeld on July 04, 2002 at 18:53:00:

So I fired off a note to Kurt and Tom yesterday about our discussion. I 
asked if they might point out anything that we came up with that wasn't 
intended. Like, "Oh, I wrote this issue specifically to come after this 
other one." And sure enough, Kurt responded...

	THE ORDER happens after AVENGERS #55 -- that's why Thor's not 
	there in #3 -- he's into his "Lord of Asgard" story by then.  
	Triathlon's in his "normal" state by the end of #55 and headed 
	back to NYC, so that fits.

So, does moving Order (and presumably Defenders #12) up that far cause 
problems with anything else? I don't see anything offhand. T'Challa has 
a tenuous truce with Iron Man (and the Avengers) by Panther #45, and Spidey's 
appearance in Order seems ambiguous enough.

The only down-side I see is that we've now got a huge gap between Defenders 
#11 and #12/Order. They do get in that Panther appearance in between, though.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Three quick things.
Posted by Jeph! on July 05, 2002 at 13:15:14:
In Reply to: Oy Vey! A Note from Busiek
posted by SKleefeld on July 05, 2002 at 07:37:37:

I've only got a few things to mention in here:

As to the re-placement of "Order" -- heh.  I thought so.  Well, hey, that's 
cool by me, as it gives the X-stuff (my mian concern) more time to happen.

As to your moving of Cap v3 #50 ... sorry, pal, can't do it.  Cap's funeral 
scene has to take place before p. 8 of T-Bolts #54, and before New X-Men #114, 
to account for Hawkeye's presence and the Beast's pre-cat look.

Listen, though, you sound like you know what you're talking about regarding 
Iron Man's armor and the placement of CA3 #45-49, so let me bounce this off 
you.  This was my rationale for dealing with Cap #50:

There are six stories in the issue.  Who says they have to take place in 
order, one after another?  I mean, stories #3-6 have to take place in close 
order (Cap "proves" his feelings to Sharon, Cap "dies" in explosion, Cap is 
mourned in schools, Cap's funeral).  But stories #1-2 could take place 
anywhere!  Heck, the Christmas story could take place LAST Christmas (around 
X 109).  Or it could take place at the beginning of the Christmas season, 
with Iron Man #50 taking place at the END of the Christmas season!

Move Cap #50 back where we had it.  If you can't squeeze the events in issues 
#45-49 behind it, put them in front, and cap them off with CA3 50/3, the 
story where Cap battles holograms of his past in an effort to convince Sharon 
Carter of his feelings.  That one could CONCEIVABLY take place after his 
funeral (where Sharon cries "I loved him so very much"...).  But CA3 #50/4-6 
MUST take place back where we had 'em.

And, my final note:  I just borrowed a good-sized chunk of the comics in 
question from a friend of mine.  I'll be spending my weekend boning up on 
the details, and hopefully I can be back to this discussion soon, fired-up 
and full of facts.

It really sounds like we just need to give the list one more good shake for 
everything to fall into place.  Possibly we should create a literally issue-
by-issue list with details on every single placement choice.  But I think 
we're starting to see the light at the end here.

Okay -- off to "force" myself to read comics all weekend.

;)

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Kang, X-Treme, Cap's death, & 9/11
Posted by Paul O'Brien on July 08, 2002 at 12:10:21:
In Reply to: Kang, X-Treme, Cap's death, & 9/11
posted by Jeph, ready for his medicine now on July 03, 2002 at 00:57:43:

> Now, CA4 #1  the first issue of Cap's Marvel Knights series  we see him 
in a "seven months ago" flashback, helping out at the site of the World Trade 
Center.  When the MU WTC was demolished in Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36, most 
folks on the boards cried out "out-of-continuity!" (mainly due to the fact 
that Doctor Doom was crying, of all things), but CA4 #1 cements the notion 
that there WAS in fact a Sept. 11 disaster in the Marvel Universe.  With 
this in mind, is it POSSIBLE that ASM2 #36 is a canon story?

I'd have to say that I remain of the view that, while the WTC clearly did 
happen in the Marvel Universe (especially if Call of Duty is in continuity, 
because they talk about it endlessly), Amazing Spider-Man #36 is not.  It 
makes no sense, it requires dead characters to appear and act out of 
character, and it generally doesn't read like it was intended to be canon.

Even if it CAN be forced between the gaps, I honestly think it's more trouble 
than it's worth - and not what the creators had in mind, anyway.

BTW, my general view on this whole Kang War area of continuity is that it's 
a hideous trainwreck.  If you can actually make it work, then god bless you - 
but I prefer to go the "topical reference" route.  For example, I simply don't 
buy that Iron Man can have his armour-changing storyline, and numerous 
subsequent issues, in the middle of a world war.  The plotline of Tieri's 
issues are totally inconsistent with the idea of an ongoing invasion taking 
place.  Since the art in Avengers tries to persuade us that that's exactly 
what happened, I think the art in Avengers is obviously wrong.

			*	*	*

Re: My turn -- mostly polishing.  Kang war, take eight...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on July 08, 2002 at 12:19:14:
In Reply to: My turn -- mostly polishing.  Kang war, take eight...
posted by Jeph! on July 03, 2002 at 18:22:10:

On Captain America: Dead Men Running

>>> Yeah, or before  well before.  I think I read Paul O'Brien say somewhere 
that it took place back during a time Cap was alive.  If he's reading this, 
maybe he can elaborate on that, and why he said it  and where he thinks it 
was placed.

Captain America: Dead Men Running is actually not a problem, compared to 
anything else on this thread.  Published between CA3 #50 and CA4 #1, it 
contains no references to anything else whatsoever and, if you were so 
minded, could take place pretty much anywhere in the last twenty years.  
It's very accommodating like that.

The plot involves Captain America being sent to rescue a group of US soldiers 
in South America who turn out to be corrupt.  Given that Cap is flown out 
there by the US military, it's inconceivable that he can be dead at this 
point - unless CA3 50/4 was a scam designed to let him go undercover, but 
there's no evidence of that.

Also, when the US soldiers see Cap, their reaction is more along the lines 
of "What's he doing here?" rather than "Isn't he meant to be dead?"  No 
querying of whether it's the real guy, and so forth.

Essentially, nothing in C:DMR suggests that the character is dead, and if he 
IS meant to be dead then it requires a lot of explaining.  Originally my view 
was that the story should be shoved into sequence immediately before CA3 
#50/4, where Cap "dies."  However, since the character is plainly alive and 
well and simply gets better at some point following CA3 #50/6, I'd now say 
that C:DMR #1-3 can all be safely inserted in their publication order, 
between CA3 #50/4 and CA4 #1 - with Cap's return from the dead, if and 
when we ever see it, taking place prior to Dead Men Running. 

			*	*	*

X-Treme X-Men, and M.I.A. Stark
Posted by SKleefeld on July 09, 2002 at 19:40:39:
In Reply to: Kang, X-Treme, Cap's death, & 9/11
posted by Jeph, ready for his medicine now on July 03, 2002 at 00:57:43:

X-Treme X-Men #11 -- Features appearances by Yellowjacket, Warbird, Vision, 
Captain America, Iron Man (Grell armor), Quicksilver, Firebird, Wonder Man, 
Scarlet Witch, Wasp and Thor (behind Simon, partially covered by a word 
balloon)

X-Treme X-Men #13 -- Appearances by Wonder Man, Captain America and Iron 
Man (Grell armor)

Avengers #55 -- Firebird: "And has there been any sign of Thor, Wasp? Any 
at all?" 
Wasp: "Not since Kang's defeat, Firebird. And I don't understand it. It's 
as if he just up and... vanished!"

So, from this we know that Khan's invasion takes place after Iron Man #50. 
We've got the Kang War itself pretty self-contained (nearly) immediately 
afterwards and then a 3-week period where there's absolutely no sign of 
Thor (since he's doing his thing in Asgard). We also have word from Busiek 
himself that Order occurs immediately after Avengers #54 and that's why he 
didn't use Thor in the book. 

Now, we'll still have to see how the Avengers roster falls, but I get the 
impression from the previews that Thor decides to split after this to be 
all kingly. That means the only time we've got to place Khan's invasion (or 
at least the Avengers portion of it) is after Iron Man #50 between pages 17 
and 18 of Avengers #45.

Also, I tracked down that bit in Avengers about Stark going into hiding. 
It's Avengers #41, page 8. Now, we've currently got this occuring before 
it's mentioned for the first time in Iron Man, but that first mention (in 
IM #42) has Stark already in hiding at the start of the story. We need to 
keep everything in the order we have it for armor consistency and in Avengers 
#41, Stark verifies that Iron Man is still an active Avenger and his seclusion 
as Stark does not impact the team. Since his only appearances between the two 
issues in question are only in Avengers, I don't see that we have a problem 
here. Basically, I'm saying that that portion of our chronology holds up to 
further scrutiny and it actually looks like we know what we're doing.  :)

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: X-Treme X-Men / Thor redux
Posted by Jeph! on July 10, 2002 at 19:02:28:
In Reply to: X-Treme X-Men, and M.I.A. Stark
posted by SKleefeld on July 09, 2002 at 19:40:39:

Hey, Sean.  I too have very little time to post, but I thought I'd throw you 
a quick reply on this.

By the way, I'm working on the most comprehensive re-tooling of everything 
we've done so far.  Hopefully I can post it by Friday ... it's scary.  And 
yes, some changes need to be made to what we did.  But I think I solved the 
"gap in A3 #45" problem as well as the "Ultron Unlimited" IM armor issues.  
You'll like it.

Anyway, as to XX...

Okay -- it has to take place after IM3 #50.  But why does it have to take 
place BEFORE the Kang War?  You seem to be assuming that Thor's "Lord of 
Asgard" arc takes place in the three weeks between A3 #54-55.  Then you go 
on to assume that immediately after the feast in A3 #55, Thor splits back 
to Asgard and is never heard from again.

However, in A3 #55, Thor is still wearing his regular outfit, and seems 
quite jolly -- when, over in Thor, the "Lord of Asgard" arc ended with 
Odin's death, Thor's costume change, and a sombre, angry Thor for quite 
some time.

I read the issue as saying that Thor had vanished after the battle, and for 
three weeks he prepared a feast and celebration.  Weird, yes, but those 
Asgardians do things properly.  Then, after the feats, he gets involved 
in the battle with Surtur and the death of Odin.  In terms of his outfit 
and temperment -- and Asgard's willingness to make merry -- it seems to 
read best that way.

(Remember, Busiek said "Order" took place after A3 #*55*, not 54...)

Now, given that, my notion that "Invasion!" takes place after the Kang War 
still holds up -- it could take place after A3 #55, at a time shortly after 
the feast, when Thor has yet to leave the mansion.

But I'm working on an X-related version of events that might help clarify 
things one way or the other, so stay tuned...

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Oh, and a potential problem with The Order #5
Posted by SKleefeld on July 02, 2002 at 13:05:22:
In Reply to: big problem with A3 #45-46.
posted by Jeph! on July 02, 2002 at 00:03:43:

May as well point out a possible error(s) with The Order #5. The big two-page 
spread with everybody? There's somebody who looks a heck of  a lot like 
Quasar. He's clearly being covered with Captain America's word balloon, in 
an attempt to cover up the fact that he's supposed to have been in space 
since the end of "Maximum Security." But why they didn't white him out 
entirely, I don't know.

And I still haven't the slightest idea on how to tackle Daredevil or the 
Spider-Man books. I'm guessing the current DD arc happens before either 
Iron Man or Captain America unmask, and presumably before the current Elektra 
storyline, but I'm stumped beyond that.

God damned Kang War.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Oh, and a potential problem with The Order #5
Posted by Andy Holcombe on July 02, 2002 at 14:15:05:
In Reply to: Oh, and a potential problem with The Order #5
posted by SKleefeld on July 02, 2002 at 13:05:22:

> May as well point out a possible error(s) with The Order #5. The big two-
page spread with everybody? There's somebody who looks a heck of  a lot 
like Quasar.

Maybe he got better?  Also in that issue, Professor X and the X-Men from 
New X-Men appear.  The presence of Emma Frost and Professor X suggest that 
it's after the recently wrapped up Imperial storyline.  However, Professor 
X's legs/spine were/was fixed at the conclusion of that story.  Was he just 
in his chair because his legs weren't strong enough for protracted use, or 
does this take place before Grant Morrison's run and Emma Frost's appearance 
with the X-Men is coincidental and does not imply team membership.

			*	*	*

X-Men apps in The Order...
Posted by Jeph! on July 02, 2002 at 16:57:41:
In Reply to: Re: Oh, and a potential problem with The Order #5
posted by Andy Holcombe on July 02, 2002 at 14:15:05:

As to the X-Men's appearances in "The Order" #5:

In addition to Prof X and Emma, the splash also includes Chamber.  Now, 
Chamber didn't join the team until UX #398 -- and in #397, Wolverine's 
comments indicated that Cassandra Nova had just "outed" the team (from 
New X-Men #116.)  Chamber's appearance here, then, is further proof that 
the Order series (and also the Kang War) has to take place after X #114-116 
and the Genoshan tragedy.

Now, the professor is sitting down -- implying that he is still crippled.  
Sadly, Cassandra Nova was masquerading as the Professor from X #116 (before 
the outing) until just AFTER his legs were cured in #126.  And, he(they) 
left earth in #117.  So, the Order series has to occur between NX #116 and 
117, and Prof X's appearance therein also counts as a BTS appearance of 
Cassandra Nova...

Why is she helping the Avengers?  Well, who knows.  This was during the 
time the school was being set up again, and in all likelihood she had to 
maintain her cover until the school was finished.  I don't really know.

And, yeah, I know -- it could all take place AFTER "Imperial" as well -- say, 
between #126 and 127 -- and Prof X could just be coincidentally sitting down.  
Maybe trying to hide his new mobility from the other teams, maybe just out of 
habit -- who knows.  Remember, a healed Prof. X was sitting down for the 
first two issues of "Secret Wars" until Jim Shooter remembered he could 
walk...  ;)

I'm voting for "between NX #116 and 117", but until I do a more in-depth 
look at how the Kang war fits into all the X-books tonight, I'll reserve a 
definitive say.  Also, we should probably watch Prof X's behavior in "Order" 
#6 as well, to possibly rule out if he's Cassandra masquerading.

But it's DEFINITELY after X #116, to answer your question.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men apps in The Order...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on July 08, 2002 at 11:59:41:
In Reply to: X-Men apps in The Order...
posted by Jeph! on July 02, 2002 at 16:57:41:

> Now, the professor is sitting down -- implying that he is still crippled.  

I think the best placement for the X-Men's appearance in Order #5 is between 
New X-Men #126-127.

As you say, Chamber is there - so it must be after he joins the team.  That 
took place in the "Poptopia" arc in Uncanny X-Men, and dialogue in that arc 
establishes that halfway through it, Cassandra Nova "outs" the X-Men.  So 
Chamber joins the X-Men after Cassie replaces Xavier.  When Xavier regains 
his body in New X-Men #126, Xorn has used his healing powers to restore his 
ability to walk.

That leaves two options.  Option one, as you say, is that the story takes 
place during the period when Cassandra was leading the X-Men as a Professor 
X impostor, and prior to her leaving Earth for the Shi'ar Empire - ie, 
between New X-Men #116-117.

But option two, which fits more neatly with everyone's motivations, is that 
the story takes place very shortly after New X-Men #126 - and that, as 
happened the first time he regained the ability to walk, Xavier is still 
adjusting and simply isn't up to abandoning the wheelchair under such 
stressful circumstances yet.

I don't have the issue to hand, but I think Xavier actually makes some 
comment along these lines (about his adjusting to walking again) in New X-Men 
#127.  This would make placement between issues #126-127 totally consistent 
with both books, and avoid the need to have Cassandra acting out of character 
in Order #5.

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men apps in The Order...
Posted by Jeph! on July 08, 2002 at 22:00:32:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men apps in The Order...
posted by Paul O'Brien on July 08, 2002 at 11:59:41:

> I think the best placement for the X-Men's appearance in Order #5 is 
between New X-Men #126-127 ... the story takes place very shortly after 
New X-Men #126 - and that, as happened the first time he regained the 
ability to walk, Xavier is still adjusting and simply isn't up to abandoning 
the wheelchair under such stressful circumstances yet.

Agreed -- and this is the revised placement I'm going with as I'm creating 
my "X" portion of the Kang War books.

As I pointed out elsewhere, Prof. X was able to walk during the first Secret 
Wars series, and yet he was sitting down for two issues running ... it's not 
unprecedented that the old guy's underdeveloped legs need a break now and 
then.

(It's also not unprecedented for Kurt Busiek to make a mistake.  Ah well.)

	-Jeph!
still trying to figure out where on earth "Ultron Imperative" fits ... it 
just DOESN'T GO between A3 #45-46, dammit...

			*	*	*

potential problem with T-Bolts #57
Posted by Jeph! on July 02, 2002 at 17:50:21:
In Reply to: Oh, and a potential problem with The Order #5
posted by SKleefeld on July 02, 2002 at 13:05:22:

> May as well point out a possible error(s) with The Order #5. The big 
two-page spread with everybody? There's somebody who looks a heck of  a 
lot like Quasar. He's clearly being covered with Captain America's word 
balloon, in an attempt to cover up the fact that he's supposed to have 
been in space since the end of "Maximum Security." But why they didn't 
white him out entirely, I don't know.

A similar thing happened on the two-page splash in Thunderbolts #57:  
Justice and Firestar are visible in the background, clearly wearing their 
costumes, even though where we've placed the issue -- in-between A3 #45 
and 46 -- they were undercover at the Triune compound.

Given Kang's cameo in the issue, I find it impossible to place TB #57 
AFTER A3 #50, so I guess we just have to assume that Justice and Firestar 
were wearing their costumes under their robes, and Graviton kidnpapped 
them for their POTENTIAL threat rather than their Avengers status.

By the way, I don't collect "Iron Man" -- could you tell me if IM is 
wearing his pre-Grell or Grell/Ryan armor in the TB cameo?  Right now 
we have it after IM3 50...

God damned Kang War.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Captain Savage &amp; his Leatherneck Raiders
Posted by SKleefeld on June 30, 2002 at 14:58:53:

What? No references to Captain Savage anywhere in the MCP?!? Well, let's get 
that corrected, shall we?  :)

#1 -- Occurs on Nov. 22, 1943
Appearances by...
Capt. Simon Savage, Sgt. Yaketty Yates, Cpl. Jacques Larocque, Pvt. Jay 
Little Bear, Pvt. Lee Baker, Seaman Blarney Stone, Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, 
Gabriel Jones, Rebel Ralston, Dino Manelli, Junior Juniper, Izzy Cohen

#2 -- 
Appearances by...
Capt. Simon Savage, Sgt. Yaketty Yates, Cpl. Jacques Larocque, Pvt. Jay 
Little Bear, Pvt. Lee Baker, Seaman Blarney Stone, Baron Wolfgang Von 
Strucker
Flashback to just after Sgt. Fury #29 featuring Strucker 

#3 --
Appearances by...
Capt. Simon Savage, Sgt. Yaketty Yates, Cpl. Jacques Larocque, Pvt. Jay 
Little Bear, Pvt. Lee Baker, Seaman Blarney Stone, Baron Wolfgang Von 
Strucker

#4 --
Appearances by...
Capt. Simon Savage, Sgt. Yaketty Yates, Cpl. Jacques Larocque, Pvt. 
Jay Little Bear, Pvt. Lee Baker, Seaman Blarney Stone, Baron Wolfgang 
Von Strucker. Next appearance of Strucker is listed in the captions as 
Strange Tales #158.
Flashback to origin of Hydra, featuring Strucker.

#5 --
Appearances by...
Capt. Simon Savage, Sgt. Yaketty Yates, Cpl. Jacques Larocque, Pvt. 
Jay Little Bear, Pvt. Lee Baker, Seaman Blarney Stone, Rolfe Harrison, 
Mr. Morton, Herbert Cholmondeley

#6 --
Appearances by...
Capt. Simon Savage, Sgt. Yaketty Yates, Cpl. Jacques Larocque, Pvt. 
Jay Little Bear, Pvt. Lee Baker, Seaman Blarney Stone, Izzy Cohen

#7 -- Occurs in 1944
Appearances by...
Capt. Simon Savage, Sgt. Yaketty Yates, Cpl. Jacques Larocque, Pvt. Jay 
Little Bear, Pvt. Lee Baker, Seaman Blarney Stone, Lt. Ben Grimm, Colonel 
Sakata

#8 --
Appearances by...
Capt. Simon Savage, Sgt. Yaketty Yates, Cpl. Jacques Larocque, Pvt. Jay 
Little Bear, Pvt. Lee Baker, Seaman Blarney Stone, Moose Barclay

#9 -- Title changes to Captain Savage and His Battlefield Raiders
Appearances by...
Capt. Simon Savage, Sgt. Yaketty Yates, Cpl. Jacques Larocque, Pvt. Jay 
Little Bear, Pvt. Lee Baker, Seaman Blarney Stone<br>Flashback to a few 
days earlier features Savage, Lt. Michelle Fisher, Yates, Larocque, Little 
Bear, Baker, Stone, Jake Malloy. (At some point, the flashback catches up 
with the first few pages.)

#10 --
Appearances by...
Capt. Simon Savage, Sgt. Yaketty Yates, Cpl. Jacques Larocque, Pvt. Jay 
Little Bear, Pvt. Lee Baker, Seaman Blarney Stone, Col. Davidson

-- Sean
