Uncany X-Men 406 and Mastermind's daughters
Posted by Dimadick on July 01, 2002 at 15:48:25:

  On April 12 I had asked of the continiuties for Mastermind/Jason Wyngarde's 
two daughters Mastermind IV/Martinique Jason(appearing on Uncany X-Men at the 
time) and Lady Mastermind/Regan Wyngarde(appearing on X-Treme X-Men at the 
time).I was given the answer that they were in fact one and the same character 
just with a messy continiuty.

  What do you make of the first page of Uncany X-Men 406,with a July 2002 
print date that seems to consider them different characters?

To be more precise Mastermind/Martinique Jason is finaly set free by Mystique/
Raven Darkholme and her first phrase is:"Humiliating.I'm trapped in a jar 
while an annoying half-sister gets to cause all kinds of trouble out in the 
free world.When We're done here, we're settling who's the rightful Wyngarde 
heir once and for all"

Mystique answers by saying:"Your father certainly got around.And Don't worry 
about Regan.I've heard she's currently out of commission.Some of us just 
think too small.

This dialogue seems to confirm that the original Mastermind actualy had two 
daughters by different women , confirming their existance as two separate 
characters and adds that their are rivals for the place of their father's 
true heir.

Do you think this is enough for confirmation or do you consider it bad 
continiuty?

			*	*	*

Re: Uncany X-Men 406 and Mastermind's daughters
Posted by Jeph! on July 01, 2002 at 22:09:02:
In Reply to: Uncany X-Men 406 and Mastermind's daughters
posted by Dimadick on July 01, 2002 at 15:48:25:

>  I was given the answer that they were in fact one and the same character 
just with a messy continiuty.

Yeah -- that was me.  Sorry about that, fella.  The UX issue in question 
came out, like, a week after I posted that and I plumb forgot to correct 
myself on here.  It happens.

And, yeah, I think the issue lays out their staus quo fairly obviously.  
To wit:

The "Mastermind IV" character from the Wolvie/Gambit: Victims series is 
the same one that appears in UX #401-406.  Her name is Martinique Jason, 
although as someone pointed out in 405, that name may be an alias.  (Because, 
seriously, why is "Jason" her last name when it's her daddy's FIRST name?...)

The "Lady Mastermind" character from X-Treme X-Men, Regan Wyngarde, is an 
all-new character.

And, as UX 406 suggests, XX 5-9 take place after UX 401 but before UX 406, 
as Martinique complains that Regan was causing trouble WHILE Martinique was 
in the tube.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Black Panther &quot;Panther's Prey&quot; LS
Posted by Ian Carroll on July 01, 2002 at 21:56:06:

I am collecting all of the Black Panther appearances written by Don McGregor, 
and cannot find his 1991 limited series, BLACK PANTHER: PANTHER'S PREY on 
the Black Panther listing.  

Can anyone place this story for me?  I assume it follows the lengthy 
"Panther's Quest" serial (pub. in 1989)from Marvel Comics Presents, which 
McGregor also wrote.  

The "BP2" listing must be for the 1988 limited series.

			*	*	*

Canon List side-note:  Canon characters in non-canon books
Posted by Jeph! on July 02, 2002 at 18:11:53:

I've been thinking about this for a while, given the recent "canon book" 
discussion, and I need to point out this situation.

Sometimes, on the fringes of Marvel canonicity, characters that are accepted 
parts of MU canon appear in books that are emphatically NOT canon, nor are 
their universes part of the canon-accepted Marvel Multiverse.

We've already argued about Juggernaut and Black Knight's time in the 
Ultraverse, with little in the way of a decision.  But I have a few more 
examples to share, and a possible solution...

Death's Head -- a dimension-travelling bounty-hunter who IS in the MCP, made 
his first appearance in TRANSFORMERS (UK) #103.  He continued to be a 
regular supporting charcater in the UK TransFormers book until he fell 
through a portal in #151, into the Doctor Who Universe.  he there had an 
adventure and then moved on to the main Marvel Universe, encountering the 
FF and eventually getting his own series from Marvel UK.

Granted, the canonicity of the 90s Marvel UK imprint is still dubious (although 
I personally have no problem with its inclusion), but DH has appeared in US 
Marvel books (the Nick Fury v3 series as well as -- I believe -- an issue of 
FF) and he is a proven canon denizen on the MU.

In another example, Wardog and the Special Executive -- featured in both 
Alan Moore's and Jamie Delano's runs on "Captain Britain", and the precursor 
to the Technet team that appeared regularly in Excalibur -- all canon 
appearances -- made their first two showings in issues of Doctor Who 
Monthly.  In fact, DWM #50 is the story of how Wardog lost his arm!  The 
Special Exec are dimensional travellers, so by all rights these stories -- in 
emphatically non-canon books -- should count.

A final example is that of the Living Tribunal, whom it was just pointed out 
is a singluarity in the Multiverse -- so any appearances in issues of "What 
If" are by his nature, canon!

Now, although all these appearances are valid, nobody wants to admit the TF 
and Doctor Who universes into the MCP.  It would go against the nature of 
the Project to have to include TransFormer characters!  ("Prime, Optimus".)  
These universes remain non-canon, and the characters remain ineligible for 
inclusion into the MCP.  That much we can all agree on.

But I really do think that these otherwise non-canon books need to be added 
to these particular chronologies.

I think Doctor Who Monthly and TransFormers v2 (weekly UK magazine) and 
What If all need to be added to the MCP Key, and I think the stories in 
all relevant issues need to be chronologized -- but ONLY into the listings 
of PROVEN CANON CHARACTERS.  Sure, write up TF UK #151, but there's no need 
to start new listings for Scourge and Cyclonus -- it's enough to acknowledge 
the book on Death's Head's listing only, put it in the Key, and leave well 
enough alone.

The same with the Living Tribunal -- acknowledging his appearances in 
various issues of "What If" doesn't mean you suddenly have to write up 
listings for the Alternate Avengers.  You just put the books in the Tribunal's 
chronology.  That's it.

And, eventually, I'm sure a sub-page will be created with a listing of 
various non-canon books, but until then I don't think the message board 
questions of "why is TransFormers in the key?" will be any more annoying 
than the questions like "why isn't Hulk Magazine #1-9 in the MCP?" that 
already pop up.

Just my two cents.  But if I were a Death's Head fan I'd love to be able 
to track his chronology back into his honest, writer-intended first 
appearances.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Canon List side-note:  Canon characters in non-canon books
Posted by Paul O'Brien on July 08, 2002 at 12:24:38:
In Reply to: Canon List side-note:  Canon characters in non-canon books
posted by Jeph! on July 02, 2002 at 18:11:53:

> But I really do think that these otherwise non-canon books need to be 
added to these particular chronologies.

I would agree.  Death's Head is a highly unusual - almost unique - example 
of a character who has actually migrated to the Marvel Universe from a 
different continuity entirely.

Earth-Transformers-UK has enough Marvel Universe features (a Spider-Man, 
a SHIELD, a Savage Land) to clearly qualify it as an alternate universe of 
some sort.  Besides which, you can clearly get there from here - Death's 
Head managed it.

			*	*	*

BLOOD BROTHERS...BLOODSTONE...BLUE DIAMOND
Posted by Arthur Stein on July 03, 2002 at 05:59:38:

BLOOD BROTHERS
IM 90-FB  Pg 10 panel 4  (Between MCP entries M/FEA 12 and IM 88)
IM 90 Pg 1 (just one of the brothers)
IM 90-BTS Pg 2 panel 3 (Iron Man tells us where the second brother is. 
IM 91 26-4 (just one of the brothers)
            (all between MCP entries IM 89 and A 252)

A 253 Pg 7 Panel 5 (just one of the brothers)
A 253-BTS (other brother Pg 7 panel 6)
   (Between MCP entries A 252 and Q 12)

BLOODSTONE/ULYSSES BLOODSTONE
CA 358 pg 9 panels 6-7, pg 11 panels 2-6 (after CA357/2)

BLUE DIAMOND/PROFESSOR ELTON T. MORROW
M/TIO 20    (between MCP entries M/TIO @1 and M/TIO 79

			*	*	*

SUPER SPIDER-MAN &amp; CAPTAIN BRITAIN #239-247 -- archived!
Posted by Jeph! on July 04, 2002 at 01:34:17:

Can anyone tell I'm on vacation this week?

Okay  here we go with the final nine issues of Captain Britain's run in 
the Marvel UK, Ltd., black-and-white weekly "Spider-Man" title. Without 
fail, the "Captain Britain" strip was the second story to run in the book, 
following the lead Spider-Man feature.  I'm listing those Spider-Man stories 
under "Other Stories", but be aware that the Spider-Man story always ran 
first, and the CB story second.

Now, the "CB" strip ran from issues #231-253, but the final six issues were 
merely reprints of MTU #65-66  CB's first American appearance.  Original CB 
material ceased with issue #247, and CB's adventures from that period are 
considered to take place just before MTU #65-66.

As discussed when I posted the first part of this write-up a few months back, 
this book went through several name changes over its 600-some issues, and I 
believe Russ has decided to refer to it as "Spider-Man Weekly" in the Key  if 
not an absolutely accurate title, it's certainly a spot-on description of the 
book.  My original abbreviation for the book was "SSM", herein it is "SMW"  
and I have gone back and changed my archiving of the first eight issues to 
match.  (Just in case, y'know, Russ wants to cut-and-paste and save himself 
some time)

----

Spider-Man Weekly #239  Sept. 7, 1977
Captain Britain:  "Five Tickets to Terror!"  7 pages, B&W

Characters:
Captain Britain  (last in SMW #238/2)
Julie Vane, a film starlet
Mr. Zampa, a racketeer
Bert Bullard, a professional soccer player
General Mayhew
Doctor Claw
Dr. Claw's musclebound assistant
(first appearances for all except CB)

Synopsis:  Captain Britain has received a free ticket for a stay on Eden 
Island, along with four other people.  Upon their arrival, however, their 
plane explodes and they are attacked by a variety of mutated animals!  
Captain Britain defends the motley group as they head for the only house 
on the island, but when they arrive, they are captured by the schemer behind 
their invitations  a wheelchair-bound mad scientist named Dr. Claw!

Notes:  Yes, that's right:  Doctor Claw.  And yes, one hand is bionic.  
Go-Go-Gadget Lameness meets the Island of Dr. Moreau.  And who says there 
aren't any original ideas in 70s comics?

Also, my copy of this issue has a typo in that the inside front cover  
normally containing page one of the Spidey serial and the book's final ad, 
is duplicated from issue #238  and it's also upside-down!  Thus, the Spidey 
story in this issue is missing page one.  I would assume this problem is 
universal to all copies of the issue, but I haven't checked.

Other stories (all B&W reprints):
Spider-Man  (11 pages, but page #1 was left out  intended to be 12 pages)
The Fantastic Four  (8 pages, with a new splash page)
The Avengers  (5 pages)

----

Spider-Man Weekly #240  Sept. 14, 1977
Captain Britain:  "To Shrink in Fear!"  7 pages, B&W

Characters:
Captain Britain
Fong  (Dr. Claw's assistant, name revealed)
Bert Bullard
Doctor Claw
Julie Vane
General Mayhew
Artie Zampa  (full name revealed)

Synopsis:  Dr. Claw shrinks his five tourist prisoners to the size of mice 
and lets them free on Eden Island.  They are chased by cats, ants, and 
mutated monkeys until Claw takes his "sport" up a notch  releasing a 
hunting hawk that swoops up the diminutive Captain Britain and flies him 
away

Notes:  the Fong in this series is not any of the "Fong, commas" currently 
on the MCP  he is identified by his single name of "Fong".

Other stories (all B&W reprints):
Spider-Man  (6 pages, with a new splash page)
The Fantastic Four  (10 pages)
The Avengers  (8 pages)

----

Spider-Man Weekly #241  Sept. 21, 1977
Captain Britain:  "A Madman's Whim!"  7 pages, B&W

Characters:
Captain Britain
General Mayhew
Bert Bullard
Artie Zampa
Julie Vane
Fong
Doctor Claw

Characters in flashback:
Doctor Claw

Synopsis:  Captain Britain fights off the hawk that has grabbed him as Dr. 
Claw summons insect-riders  island natives shrunken to bug-size  to capture 
the similarly shrunken tourists.  Cap follows the captives through a tunnel 
into Dr. Claw's hideout, and as radiation from the tunnel walls grows 
everyone back to normal size, they find themselves in an indoor arena!  Dr. 
Claw orders CB to fight Fong for the lives of the other four, and Fong 
obeys  the battle seems even, until Fong gains the upper hand, and prepares 
to bash the stunned CB's head in

Notes:  the flashback this issue is Dr. Claw's disfigurement by a British 
biochemical warfare agent, and his subsequent disfigurement and list for 
vengeance  hence his torment of CB and the four British citizens.  As Dr. 
Claw's origin, it takes place some time prior to his first appearance in SMW 
#239.

Other stories (all B&W reprints):
Spider-Man  (8 pages)
The Fantastic Four  (11 pages, with a new splash page)
The Avengers  (6 pages)

----

Spider-Man Weekly #242  Sept. 28, 1977
Captain Britain:  "Hell Island Climax!"  7 pages, B&W

Characters:
Captain Britain
Fong
Doctor Claw
General Mayhew
Julie Vane
Artie Zampa
Bert Bullard

Synopsis:  Captain Britain recovers from his daze and knocks Fong out, 
then goes after Dr. Claw  but the doctor attacks him with the weapons in 
his chair as well as his own chemically disfigured body.  Meanwhile, Fong 
recovers and gropes for the lever that will open the arena to several blood-
crazed animals, who threaten to devour the other four captives!  Claw flees, 
and CB pins Fong's arm at the last second.  CB chases after Claw, who faces 
him inside his control center, built into a volcano.  Claw attacks CB with 
molten lava, but CB counters and knocks Claw into an electrical panel, 
shocking him unconscious.  CB discovers Claw's private aircraft, and piles 
the four civilians into it  and they fly away from Eden Island, leaving 
Claw and at the mercy of the spreading lava and his own hordes of 
bloodthirsty mutant creatures

Other stories (all B&W reprints):
Spider-Man  (10 pages, with a new splash page)
The Fantastic Four  (8 pages)
The Avengers  (5 pages)

----

Spider-Man Weekly #243  Oct. 5, 1977
Captain Britain:  "When Slaymaster Strikes!"  7 pages, B&W

Characters:
Captain Britain
Slaymaster  (first appearance)
Sir Thurlow Archer, deceased  (first appearance)
Chief Inspector Dai Thomas  (last in SMW #237/2)
Elisabeth "Betsy" Braddock  (Psylocke)
James "Jamie" Braddock, Jr.  (both last in CB #39)
Major Jock Gunn, a race-car driver  (first appearance)

Synopsis:  Captain Britain finds Sir Thurlow Archer, a collector of rare 
weapons, dead on his balcony from an arrow wound.  The killer, an assassin 
named Slaymaster, plays cat and mouse with CB before knocking him unconscious 
and leaving him to be implicated.  CB wakes up in the hands of the police, 
and escapes  and later, in talking with his siblings, begins to piece the 
puzzle together.  Archer was the latest in a string of "gimmick" murders, 
and every vistim to date had been a collector of something.  CB's brother 
races cars with a Jock Gunn, a car collector, and when CB visits him at the 
races, he puts two and two together when Gunn is offered the starting pistol!  
Too late, CB lunges at Gunn, but the pistol explodes, killing Gunn and 
stunning CB

Notes:  Sir Archer's first and only appearance this issue is as a corpse  
does a character deserve an MCP entry if they've never been alive on-panel?  
Also, two other "gimmick" victims  Luke Lane and Lord Quayne  are mentioned, 
but never appear.  I'm fairly sure this doesn't count for MCP purposes.

Other stories (all B&W reprints):
Spider-Man  (9 pages)
The Fantastic Four  (9 pages, with a new splash page)
The Avengers  (7 pages)

----

Spider-Man Weekly #244  Oct. 12, 1977
Captain Britain:  "Dogfight with Death!"  7 pages, B&W

Characters:
Captain Britain
Slaymaster
Dai Thomas
Mr. Waxman, a comic shop owner

Flo, Dai's sister  BTS (on phone, unheard)
Herbert ("Herbie"), Dai's nephew
Synopsis:  Captain Britain confronts Slaymaster in the aftermath of Gunn's 
death, but Slaymaster escapes.  In the confusion, though, two of his men 
steal Gunn's prized Grand Prix Racer.  CB runs his "collector" theory by 
Dai Thomas, and they deduce that Mr. Waxman, a comic collector and owner of 
a wax museum, is the likely next target.  Cb arrives too late to stop 
Slaymaster  posing as a statue  from killing Waxman, but intercepts him 
in the middle of stealing a rare comic book

Notes:  Dai Thomas' sister and nephew appear in this issue, but because of 
the likelihood that Flo's last name is no longer "Thomas", I have no way of 
completing their full names, and I guess that means they just don't deserve 
an MCP entry.

Also, although the issue picks up seconds after last issue left off, there 
is no sign of Gunn's corpse.  I'm assuming it was atomized or something, and 
so I'm not crediting Gunn (or his corpse) with even a BTS appearance in this 
issue.

Other stories (all B&W reprints):
Spider-Man  (9 pages, with a new splash page)
The Avengers  (9 pages, with a new splash page)
The Fantastic Four  (5 pages, with a new splash page)

----

Spider-Man Weekly #245  Oct. 19, 1977
Captain Britain:  "While London Gapes in Horror!"  7 pages, B&W

Characters:
Captain Britain
Slaymaster
Dai Thomas
Mr. Waxman, deceased
Lady Gila
Herbie, Dai Thomas' nephew (called "Freddie" in one panel)

Synopsis:  Once again, Slaymaster escapes Captain Britain just as the police 
show up  but in this case he also kidnaps Herbie, who had been visiting 
Waxman's museum, and deposits him on top of Nelson's Column.  CB swoops up 
to rescue him, and finds that Slaymaster has dropped a miniature griffin 
statuette!  CB brings the boy down to the ground, and flies off  deducing 
that the griffin might be a deliberate clue.  That night, CB arrives at the 
posh home of Lady Gila, an art collector.  While he tussles with her security 
guards, Slaymaster slips inside, sics a large, mutated gila monster on her, 
killing her, and steals the Golden Griffin, a priceless statue.  When CB 
arrives, Slaymaster is able to gas him and leave him at the mercies of the 
poisonous, mutated creature

Notes:  Once again, Dai Thomas' unnamed nephew appears.  I'd love to think 
that CB's mistakenly calling him "Freddie" in one panel wasn't a slip of the 
tongue, but in fact the lad's LAST name  making him Herbert Freddie and his 
mother Florence Thomas-Freddie, and granting both of them a spot on the MCP  
but what are the odds that it was meant that way?

Other stories (all B&W reprints):
Spider-Man  (10 pages)
The Avengers  (5 pages, with a new splash page)
Thor  (8 pages)

----

Spider-Man Weekly #246  Oct. 26, 1977
Captain Britain:  "Tunnels of Terror!"  7 pages, B&W

Characters:
Captain Britain
Slaymaster
Lady Gila, deceased
Dai Thomas
Konrad Kharkov  (first appearance)

Synopsis:  Captain Britain uses his staff to ward off the mutant gila monster 
left behind by Slaymaster, and Dai Thomas tips him off that he may be hiding 
in the sewers.  Slaymaster's machines capture CB, and Slaymaster hangs him 
above a shark tank, gloating about his employer and lighting a cigarette.  He 
leaves to meet with him, and CB eventually wriggles free and, inspecting 
Slaymaster's lighter, figures out his employer  shipping magnate Konrad 
Kharkov!  CB tracks down Kharkov's yacht, but is ensnared by metal tentacles 
that drag him under the water

Other stories (all B&W reprints):
Spider-Man  (8 pages, with a new splash page)
The Avengers  (9 pages)
Thor  (6 pages)

----

Spider-Man Weekly #247  Nov. 2, 1977
Captain Britain:  "The Devil and the Deep!"  7 pages, B&W

Characters:
Captain Britain
Slaymaster
Konrad Kharkov
Herr Kraus
King Mbotu
Sheik Hassan
Senator Adams
Mr. Yashobi
(first and final appearances for all except CB, Slaymaster, and Kharkov)

Synopsis:  As Captain Britain battles Kharkov's robot octopus, Slaymaster and 
Kharkov prepare to trade all the collectibles Slaymaster has stolen to foreign 
VIPs  in exchange for trade blockades against Britain!  As CB defeats the 
robot and makes his way aboard Kharkov's yacht, Kharkov attempts to double-
cross Slaymaster, and pays for it with his life.  Slaymaster then begins to 
mine the ship and blackmail the VIPs, but CB breaks in and attacks him.  CB 
knocks Slaymaster overboard, where hungry sharks await, and disarms 
Slaymaster's bombs.  he then radios the Royal Navy to come mop up the 
boatload of foreign diplomats.

Notes:  As mentioned above, this would be the final UK-original installment 
of "Captain Britain" until the character popped up in a supporting role in 
the "Black Knight" strip in the back of 1979's "Hulk Comic".  CB goes on 
from here to guest-star in "Marvel Team-Up" #65 and 66, his first US 
appearance (and one that substantially expands his origin from CB #1).

Other stories (all B&W reprints):
Spider-Man  (9 pages)
The Avengers  (7 pages, with a new splash page)
Thor  (7 pages, with a new splash page)

----

Here's my usual MCP-style roundup.  In this case, since I need to change 
the abbreviation of all the work I did last time (from SSM to SMW), and 
because the info hasn't yet been posted on the MCP, I'm just going to 
include all 17 issues of SMW in the roundup below.  New characters are 
**starred, new appearances for old characters are *starred, and first- and 
last-appearances surround the new information where available.  (I'm 
pretending all 17 issues' worth is "new" here,  even though some of it was 
previously posted.)  Information from CB #1-39 has NOT been included  Russ 
has already incorporated about half of it, but the unincluded rest, for the 
curious, can be found somewhere farther down on the MCP board.  It's all 
been treated as "old info" when it does crop up below, though (as CB 39 
does in Psylocke's listing).

Worth mentioning again is that some of the information collected below has 
already been sporadically posted on the MCP, like all of CB's information, 
and Courtney Ross's appearance in SMW 238/2 (listed therein, however, as 
"SSM&CB" rather than "SMW").  That information is included below, but not 
starred.

**SENATOR ADAMS
*SMW 247/2

**ARCHER, SIR THURLOW
*SMW 243/2

**THE BLACK BARON / RUPERT "RODERICK" KEMP
*SMW 235/2
*SMW 236/2
*SMW 237/2
*SMW 238/2

BRADDOCK, JAMES JR. "JAMIE"

CB 39
*SMW 243/2
XCAL@2-FB


**BULLARD, BERT
*SMW 239/2
*SMW 240/2
*SMW 241/2
*SMW 242/2

CAPTAIN BRITAIN / BRIAN BRADDOCK

CB 39
SMW 231/2
SMW 232/2
SMW 233/2
SMW 234/2
SMW 235/2
SMW 236/2
SMW 237/2
SMW 238/2
SMW 239/2
SMW 240/2
SMW 241/2
SMW 242/2
SMW 243/2
SMW 244/2
SMW 245/2
SMW 246/2
SMW 247/2
XCAL 4-FB


**DOCTOR CLAW
*SMW 241/2-FB
*SMW 239/2
*SMW 240/2
*SMW 241/2
>*SMW 242/2

**FONG
*SMW 239/2
*SMW 240/2
*SMW 241/2
*SMW 242/2

**LADY GILA
*SMW 245/2
*SMW 246/2

**GUNN, JOCK
*SMW 243/2

**SHEIK HASSAN
*SMW 247/2

THE HIGHWAYMAN
*SMW 231/2-FB
CB 37
CB 38
CB 39
*SMW 231/2
*SMW 232/2

**HUGO
*SMW 235/2
*SMW 236/2
*SMW 237/2
*SMW 238/2

**KHARKOV, KONRAD
*SMW 246/2
*SMW 247/2

**HERR KRAUS
*SMW 247/2

THE MANIPULATOR / **BASIL CRUSHSTONE
*SMW 231/2-FB
CB 37
CB 38
CB 39
*SMW 231/2
*SMW 232/2

**GENERAL MAYHEW
*SMW 239/2
*SMW 240/2
*SMW 241/2
*SMW 242/2

**KING MBOTU
*SMW 247/2

**MR. MCNAB
*SMW 233/2
*SMW 234/2

PSYLOCKE / ELISABETH "BETSY" BRADDOCK

CB 39
*SMW 243/2
XX 3-FB


ROSS, COURTNEY

CB 30
*SMW 233/2
*SMW 234/2
*SMW 235/2
*SMW 236/2
SMW 238/2
XCAL 4-FB


SATAN / "MARDU KURIOS"

GR2 19
*SMW 238/2
GR2 32


**SLAYMASTER
*SMW 243/2
*SMW 244/2
*SMW 245/2
*SMW 246/2
*SMW 247/2

**"THE STAR-CREATURE"
*SMW 234/2-FB
*SMW 233/2
*SMW 234/2

TANNER, JACKO

CB 38
*SMW 233/2
*SMW 234/2

THOMAS, DAI

CB 39
*SMW 231/2
*SMW 232/2
*SMW 237/2
*SMW 243/2
*SMW 244/2
*SMW 245/2
*SMW 246/2
XCAL 1


**VANE, JULIE
*SMW 239/2
*SMW 240/2
*SMW 241/2
*SMW 242/2

**MR. WAXMAN
*SMW 244/2
*SMW 245/2

WINDSOR, ELIZABETH II

CB 39
*SMW 231/2
*SMW 232/2-BTS

**MR. YASHOBI
*SMW 247/2

**ZAMPA, ARTIE
*SMW 239/2
*SMW 240/2
*SMW 241/2
*SMW 242/2

----

Next:  Marvel UK's "Hulk Comic" #1-63!

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Hijacker's first appearence
Posted by Matthew Green on July 06, 2002 at 18:46:29:

It was not in MTIO but actually in Tales of Suspense with Antman.

			*	*	*

Re: Hijacker's first appearence
Posted by DCW3 on July 08, 2002 at 12:56:28:
In Reply to: Hijacker's first appearence
posted by Matthew Green on July 06, 2002 at 18:46:29:

That would actually be Tales to Astonish #40.

			*	*	*

Additional NANNY II Appearances
Posted by Brian Cook on July 08, 2002 at 08:38:40:

NANNY II appears in X-Factor 30 & 31 prior to her appearance in X-Factor #34

			*	*	*

Hurricane III appearance (or non-appearance)
Posted by Aaron R. Stanley on July 08, 2002 at 18:31:02:

Hello,
i was just going through my collection, and ran across some anomalies 
when checking my list of characters in Cable #19, to yours. Hurricane III 
was never in C2 #19

			*	*	*

BODYBAG  -  and other TECHNETs...... BOGGS, MORDECAI P
Posted by Arthur Stein on July 09, 2002 at 11:33:29:

additional appearances...

BODYBAG

XCAL 12,  XCAL 13, XCAL 15 ,  M/CP 174/2-FB
(between MCP entries XCALSE and XCAL 42)

(Other fallout from revisiting the technet)

FERRO2   (sorry cant superscript the 2 like it should be)

XCAL 13, XCAL 15 ,  M/CP 174/2-FB
(before XCAL 42)

note the current first entry under FERRO2 is XCALSE. This is wrong. The 
FERRO in XCALSE is not the FERRO2 seen from XCAL 13 on, but his brother 
(who died in XCALSE). In  XCAL 15 pg 9 FERRO2 says to Gatecrasher Just 
cuz me bruvver got kilt when his warranty ran out. When his brother had 
died in XCALSE pg 36, Gatecrasher remarked  I never should have kept 
Ferro on the payroll after his warranty expired. 

CHINA DOLL,  JOYBOY,  SCATTERBRAIN, WAXWORKS (name should have an S at 
the end), YAP

XCAL 12,  XCAL 13, XCAL 15 ,  M/CP 174/2-FB
(between MCP entries XCALSE and XCAL 42)

GATECRASHER

XCAL 12,  XCAL 13, XCAL 15 ,  M/CP 174/2-FB
(between MCP entries XCALSE and XCAL 42)
M/CP 174/2  (between MCP entries XCAL 51 and XCAL 125)

NUMBERS

I cannot locate Numbers in XCALSE as indicated.

XCAL 12,  XCAL 13, XCAL 15 ,  M/CP 174/2-FB
(before XCAL 42)

RINGTOSS, THUG

XCAL 13, XCAL 15 ,  M/CP 174/2-FB
(between MCP entries XCALSE and XCAL 42)

-----------------------------------------

BOGGS, MORDECAI P

CM 30  (between MCP entries CM 22 and CM 34)
CM 35  (between MCP entries CM 34 and CM 37)
CM 47, CM 51, CM 54, CM 55, CM 60 
 (between MCP entries CM 37 and ASPOT 25/2)

			*	*	*

Gaurdians of the Galaxy
Posted by Herman Schultz on July 10, 2002 at 12:36:07:

This title doesn't appear to be part of the Marvel Chronology Project. There 
are times when this title crossed over into core Marvel Universe chronology. 
For example, #s 28 and 29 when the Gaurdians battled the Masters of Evil V 
in an Infinity War crossover.

The following villains appeared in issue 28:

Absorbing Man
Titania
Doctor Octopus
Yellowjacket II
Oddball
Jackhammer
Powderkeg
Puff Adder
The Shocker
Gargantua

Issue 29 featured appearances by:

Doctor Octopus
Puff Adder
The Shocker
Gargantua

These issues were published in 1992, but they are not listed in any of the 
above character's chronology lists that I have seen so far.

Thanks for all the terrific work you've been doing on this website. It's 
truly extraordinary.

			*	*	*

Daredevil Annual #6 and Incredible Hulk Annual #16
Posted by Andy Holcombe on July 11, 2002 at 22:24:33:

The main stories in these issues are continuous with one another.  In fact, 
they even share a couple of scenes.  Yet, in Daredevil and Ben Urich's 
chronologies, they are separated by many issues (thirteen in Daredevil's 
case).  I think that Daredevil Annual #6 should be moved up to right before 
Incredible Hulk Annual #16. 

			*	*	*

Avengers #332, 333
Posted by Andy Holcombe on July 12, 2002 at 11:30:15:

For Captain America and Nick Fury, these issues are placed after the Von 
Strucker Gambit in Daredevil Annual #7, Punisher Annual #4, and Captain 
America Annual #10.  In the case of Nick Fury, these Avengers issues are 
after Daredevil #299.  For Daredevil, on the other hand, Avengers #332 and 
333 are placed between Daredevil #291 and Daredevil Annual #7. 

			*	*	*

BOVA...BROTHERS GRIMM...BYREL
Posted by Arthur Stein on July 13, 2002 at 14:49:33:

new entries marked **

BOVA
(Not too sure yet just what qualifies for a BTS entry this one doesnt 
impact the story (though it is Quicksilvers motivation to stick around) 
but does give information as to Bovas current status and location.)

A 245
** A 247-BTS
A 380

When Bova was last seen in A 245 she was in bed in a doctors cabin 
recovering from injury. Quicksilver had found her and was with her.
In A 247  Quicksilver, still in the cabin, is talking to the doctor. 
He tells us that Bova is still abed, therefore still in the cabin room 
where last seen in A 245.

BROTHERS GRIMM

As revealed in S-W 12,  the Brothers Grimm in S-W 3 through S-W 12, 
were really life-size mannequins animated by the spirit of Nathan Dolly 
aka Mr Doll from TOS 48.

BROTHERS GRIMM see MR. DOLL
------------------------------
Mr Dolls suggested revised chronology:

MR. DOLL/NATHAN DOLLY

S-W 12-FB   Pg 6 Panel 3 
TOS 48  (S-W 12FB Pg 6 Panel 4 takes place during TOS 48 - I place it 
between pgs 3 and 4)
S-W 12-FB (Pg 6 Panel 5)  ~ A 182-FB
S-W 12-FB (Pg 6 Panel 7, Pg 7 panels 1-3)
S-W 3
S-W 5
S-W 7
S-W 11
S-W 12

BYREL

**PP 4
**PP 43
**PP 50
**PP 51
**PP 53
PP:PP 3

			*	*	*

Trade Paperbacks With New Pages
Posted by Andy Holcombe on July 15, 2002 at 23:09:21:

Does anyone know which trade paperbacks (or even hardbacks) have new 
material added to them.  I know Avengers: The Korvac Saga and Daredevil: 
Fall From Grace have a few original pages.  I think Fantastic Four: Nobody 
Gets out Alive may as well but I'm not sure.  Thanks for any help.

			*	*	*

Re: Trade Paperbacks With New Pages
Posted by comico on July 16, 2002 at 07:49:42:
In Reply to: Trade Paperbacks With New Pages
posted by Andy Holcombe on July 15, 2002 at 23:09:21:

spider-man:revelations also had extra pages showing ben reilly's funeral.

Jesse

			*	*	*

Re: Trade Paperbacks With New Pages
Posted by Jeph! on July 16, 2002 at 23:27:55:
In Reply to: Re: Trade Paperbacks With New Pages
posted by comico on July 16, 2002 at 07:49:42:

Ahhh, one of my (other) favorite subjects.  I too would love to get a nice 
big list of stuff like this.

>> I know Avengers: The Korvac Saga and Daredevil: Fall From Grace have a 
few original pages.

What exactly is the added material in the Korvac Saga?  I gather it's some 
sort of epilogue, but who features in it?  (More, specifically, I'm 
wondering if young Vance Astro appears in the epilogue -- I dig Marvel 
Boy appearances).

> spider-man:revelations also had extra pages showing ben reilly's funeral.

Yep, and pages showing his capture by the Green Goblin and Pete's meeting 
with Jimnmy Six, and other goodies...

Now for an addition of my own:  "CABLE and the New Mutants", collecting NM 
#88-91, 93-94 and some of #86-87, has one new page:  a padding-out of the 
battle between Cable and Wolvie in #93.  The page was added to make two 
double-page splashes fit correctly, but it's technically a "new scene": 
added dialogue and the like.

In that vein, the "Best of Marvel '96" trade has a corrected version of 
"Onslaught: X-Men".  The original publication of the issue left out a white 
overlay in the climax of the issue: as Franklin reaches out to the heroes 
trapped inside Onslaught, they were SUPPOSED to appear, translucent, over 
the scene of the shocked X-Men and trashed Central Park.  But, the plate 
got left out and all you see is Franklin reaching into nothing and the X-Men 
looking at nothing.  The corrected splash page was included when the book 
was collected in "Best of Marvel '96".  (The same correction was made when 
it was collected in "Onsluaght Book 6", but as that collection left out 
page 1 of the book, I tend to ignore it...)

Me, I want to know about added scenes like this in reprint books (not 
necessarily trades).  "X-Men Classics" #2 (the 3-issue series reprinting 
UX #57-62) opens with a new page.  This page, featuring Cyclops leading 
a charge of X-Men, takes place about halfway through UX #59, which is 
where X-Men Classics #1 stopped.  Again, it was created to make the reprint 
work on its own, but it represents a technically new scene!

I really wonder about the validity of this stuff.  I'd love to see a web-
page or something that has listings of added scenes in reprints and 
collections -- or, more generally, ANY changes made to reprints and 
collections.

(For example, I can't for the life of me figure out why they dropped two 
word balloons out of the "Spider-Man: Round Robin" TPB...)

Feh.  Marvel reprint department.

	-Jeph!
anxiously awaiting "the Essential Captain Britain" ... hah

			*	*	*

Re: Trade Paperbacks With New Pages
Posted by Andy Holcombe on July 17, 2002 at 16:21:16:
In Reply to: Re: Trade Paperbacks With New Pages
posted by Jeph! on July 16, 2002 at 23:27:55:

> What exactly is the added material in the Korvac Saga?

Hopefully, I should find out in a week or so when my copy comes in.

I guess I should mention that Classic X-Men featured new scenes and backup 
stories, and Marvel Tales sometimes had new backup stories as well.

			*	*	*

Re: Trade Paperbacks With New Pages
Posted by Andy Holcombe on July 20, 2002 at 00:39:46:
In Reply to: Re: Trade Paperbacks With New Pages
posted by Jeph! on July 16, 2002 at 23:27:55:

>Again, it was created to make the reprint work on its own, but it 
represents a technically new scene!

The Elektra Saga has some stuff like this as well.  Also, the Earth X 
Hardback from Graphitti Designs has an epilogue and an enhanced CD 
soundtrack which has animation to recreate scenes from the series.  The 
Universe X (and presumably Paradise X) trade paperbacks include the 
appendicies.

			*	*	*

What If... framing stories, Tempus in What If..., Master Khan
Posted by John Mc Donagh on July 16, 2002 at 14:17:13:

    We have seen some scintilating recent messages, and so I have decided 
to broach a few other subjects related to What If...?

Yes, quite a few What If... stories have framing sequences that take place 
on Earth-616, and then the story shifts to the alternate reality. I am 
excluding, of course, flashbacks that show how things really happened on 
Earth-616 (to get the readers up to speed), but framing sequences that 
depicted a scene apparently never shown elsewhere.

First series#35 1982/10 What if Bullseye had not killed Elektra?
   Shows Earth-616 Matt Murdock mourning at Elektra's tomb. 

First series#36 1982/12 What If Nova had not given up his powers?
  Shows Earth-616's Richard Ryder sheepishly sulking outside his house 
before deciding to go one, having returned to Earth without his Nova 
powers. 

Second Series#28 1991/08 What if Captain America had led an army of Super 
Soldiers in World War 2? George Caragonne - Ron Wilson 
   This one opens with Earth-616 Captain America guesting on a talk show, 
then switches to the alternate reality.

Second series#31 1991/11 What if Spider-Man had not lost his cosmic powers? 
    Framing sequences in which a dog gains the Captain Universe powers (!) 
and uses them to save his masters, who get caught in a hot air balloon that 
punctures.

Second series#48 1993/04 What if Daredevil saved Nuke? 
    The Watcher does not show an alternate reality in this issue. What 
happens entails Earth-616's Ben Urich writing a story where Daredevil 
managed to save Nuke...for a little while (Nuke dies at the end anyway).

Second series#66 1994/10 What if Rogue possessed the powers of Thor?
   As someone else noted earlier:
     Also, the framing sequence of "What If Rogue Absorbed the Power of 
Thor" (not sure of the exact issue number) was set in 616; the "what if" 
portion of the issue was a possible future viewed by Destiny while she was 
in prison. The framing sequence, IIRC, took place shortly prior to A@ 10; 
other Brotherhood members might have also appeared in that issue.

Also, Tempus and Immortus' appearances during Timequake (the latter often 
incognito as "the Whisperer") represent the same Tempus and Immortus who 
appear elsewhere.

Oh, and Master Khan may have first appeared in a story in Strange Tales#77 
(1960). It strongly resembles the Iron Fist villain.

			*	*	*

Thank You Bendis!!
Posted by garbonzo on July 17, 2002 at 00:39:11:

Well, we can at least put one (minor) mystery to bed.  Bendis definately 
revealed that Alias takes place in the current Marvel continuity with his 
references to the recent storyline in Daredevil(See Alias #10).  With that 
taken care of, it re-opens the original question...when was Jessica Jones 
a costumes super-hero???  I mean, how many behind the scenes and between 
panel appearances can a character have???

So, I've been doing a little digging.  In Alias #1, Jessica is seen in two 
pictures with various members of the Avengers (Thor, Iron Man, Wasp and 
Vision in one picture, and Ms. Marvel in the other).  We also know from 
this first story arc that she has never worked with Captain America. In 
addition, in the Rick Jones stories, Jessica doesn't seem to have much of 
a clue about the Kree Skrull War (which it seems every Avenger since that 
time either participated in or has read about), thus adding to the thought 
that worked with The Avengers before the Kree Skrull action.

Ms. Marvel first hooks up with The Avengers back in issue #172 (these are 
all going to be Vol. 1 folks). Her costume is the original red one, not 
the black bathing suit and thigh high boots which was featured in the 
picture.  She is wearing the black costume by issue 176.  Cap returns to 
the side of the Avengers in issue 184, making it difficult for Jessica to 
be with the Avengers past that point. (Unfortunately, I am missing a few 
issues in between, so please correct me if I am wrong with any of these 
numbers!)  To make issues more definate (in other words so we are not 
including tons of later issues)  Carol Danvers (aka Ms. Marvel disappears 
at the end of issue 200.)  Anything past that, and i think we have too 
many costume and cast changes for our heroes, especially Iron Man, to 
warrant her inclusion much past that point.

So really, I think we can place Jessica Jones' costumed career somewhere 
in this time frame.  

I now turn this over to the true professionals to pick apart my arguments 
and make an even more educated assessment.

garbonzo 

			*	*	*

Re: Thank You Bendis!!
Posted by Andy Holcombe on July 17, 2002 at 16:29:16:
In Reply to: Thank You Bendis!!
posted by garbonzo on July 17, 2002 at 00:39:11:

> Ms. Marvel first hooks up with The Avengers back in issue #172 (these are 
all going to be Vol. 1 folks). Her costume is the original red one, not the 
black bathing suit and thigh high boots which was featured in the picture.  
She is wearing the black costume by issue 176.

My copy of Avengers #176 has her in the original costume.  Avengers Annual 
#8 has her in the black costume.  I assume she gets it in the Ms. Marvel 
issues (20-22) set between the epilogue in Avengers: The Korvac Saga and 
Avengers Annual #8.

			*	*	*

Re: Thank You Bendis!!
Posted by Peter Fabricius on July 18, 2002 at 11:36:17:
In Reply to: Re: Thank You Bendis!!
posted by Andy Holcombe on July 17, 2002 at 16:29:16:

> My copy of Avengers #176 has her in the original costume.  Avengers 
Annual #8 has her in the black costume.  I assume she gets it in the Ms. 
Marvel issues (20-22) set between the epilogue in Avengers: The Korvac 
Saga and Avengers Annual #8.

She first wears it in Ms. Marvel #20.
It is quite clear from the dialogue that this is the first time she wears it.

Peter

			*	*	*

Avengers After Korvac
Posted by BobMM on July 23, 2002 at 14:55:43:
In Reply to: Thank You Bendis!!
posted by garbonzo on July 17, 2002 at 00:39:11:

I have always assumed a long gap between the end of the Korvac story (#177) 
and Michelinie's debut in #181. Every Avenger and his mother was around, in 
varying stages of health, during this time, so it's a convenient place to 
dump oddball combinations of team members that don't fit anywhere else.

Ms. Marvel switched costumes somewhere during this period, so perhaps it is 
also where Ms. Jones met the A-Team.

			*	*	*

CABE, BETHANY...CABER...CABLE
Posted by Arthur Stein on July 17, 2002 at 16:58:34:

and into the C's we go...

new entries marked **

CABE, BETHANY

IM 211
** IM 284
IM 305
.
.
.
FW 8
** IM313
IM 315
<IM 289  this entry should be removed  Bethany Cabe is not in IM 289. 
The female in IM 289 is Rae LaCosta, and should be added to HER chronology>

LACOSTA, RAE
**IM 289
WARM 4

CABER

**T 398
**T 399
**T 400
**MCP 30/4
T 417/2
T 418/2


CABLE/NATHAN SUMMERS

I  think the X 85 entry in the following segment of Cables Chronology is 
a typo and should read XF 85

X 14
XFOR 16
UX 295
>==> X 85  <==
X 15
XFOR 17
UX 296
XF 86
X 16

			*	*	*

OOPs... left off the rationale ...
Posted by Arthur Stein on July 17, 2002 at 17:13:40:

Re my previous posting ....

The current IM 289 entry under Bethany Cabe  should be removed  Bethany 
Cabe is NOT in IM 289. The female in IM 289 is Rae LaCoste, and should be 
added to HER chronology

LACOSTE, RAE
**IM 289
WARM 4

sorry for the mess

			*	*	*

Magic
Posted by Andy Holcombe on July 18, 2002 at 20:31:37:

Whenever Dr. Strange or some other magician invokes a being (such as Agamotto 
or Cyttorak) while casting a spell shouldn't that count as a behind the 
scenes appearance.

			*	*	*

Re: Magic
Posted by Jhaeman on July 19, 2002 at 13:04:17:
In Reply to: Magic
posted by Andy Holcombe on July 18, 2002 at 20:31:37:

I see your logic, but I would say no.  First, calling out someone's name, 
even if they ultimately do provide you the power to cast a spell, is a very, 
very minor influence on a story and it doesn't seem like the entity is 
really 'behind the scenes.'  Second, it would result in hundreds of 
additional "appearances" for these beings and mask the occasions when they 
actually did appear--I for one would be torqued to follow the project's 
list and buy a bunch of comics for Agamotto appearances only to find out it 
was just the good Doctor mentioning his amulet  like he does every other 
issue :)

			*	*	*

Re: Magic
Posted by Andy Holcombe on July 20, 2002 at 00:29:44:
In Reply to: Re: Magic
posted by Jhaeman on July 19, 2002 at 13:04:17:

I wasn't referring to imbued objects of power.  I was referring more to "I 
call upon Omnipotent Oshtur . . ."  But I understand what you're saying.  
It was just a thought.

			*	*	*

Infinity Abyss #3 - Galactus
Posted by Paul O'Brien on July 20, 2002 at 10:33:50:

Any thoughts on this one...?

Infinity Abyss #3 contains a brief scene showing Galactus doing, well, what 
he normally does.

The catch is that this series supposedly takes place before the Kang War, 
which seemed to be confirmed by the Avengers roster seen in Infinity Abyss 
#1 (including Goliath rather than Yellowjacket).

But Galactus was dead during the period between Galactus The Devourer #6 and 
his inexplicable revival in Fantastic Four #49.  FF #49 is part of the 
Abraxas storyline, and an earlier chapter in that storyline expressly 
placed it as taking place simultaneously with Kang's attack on the UN 
plaza - meaning that Galactus doesn't return until during, or shortly 
after, the Kang War.

Which means he ought to be dead when Infinity Abyss #3 takes place - unless 
continuity is bent alarmingly so that Infinity Abyss precedes Galactus The 
Devourer.  And that would seem ludicrous.

Do we just resort to writing it off as a hole in spacetime...?

			*	*	*

Re: Infinity Abyss #3 - Thanos
Posted by Brian Cook on July 20, 2002 at 10:50:28:
In Reply to: Infinity Abyss #3 - Galactus
posted by Paul O'Brien on July 20, 2002 at 10:33:50:

The appearances by Thanos in Ka-Zar, Thor vol 2, and Avengers: Celestial 
Quest now need to be listed as appearances by 3 different Thanos constructs...

			*	*	*

Re: Infinity Abyss #3 - Thanos
Posted by Jeph! on July 20, 2002 at 23:37:21:
In Reply to: Re: Infinity Abyss #3 - Thanos
posted by Brian Cook on July 20, 2002 at 10:50:28:

> The appearances by Thanos in Ka-Zar, Thor vol 2, and Avengers: Celestial 
Quest now need to be listed as appearances by 3 different Thanos constructs...

I caught the Ka-Zar and Thor references (assuming that's that storyline a 
few years back that was a crossover with Warlock and Thor, where Thor went 
crazy ... something like that, yeah).

But I thought the final reference, to "Thanos's construct's final battle 
with Thor and the Avengers" was referencing the mop-up of that crossover, 
not the recent "Celestial Quest" series.

Am I wrong?  It seems far too recent a series to be retconning.  Besides, 
didn't Thanos and Moondragon have a conversation about Quoi (from A:CQ) in 
"Infinity Abyss" #1?

I ... don't know this one, though.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Infinity Abyss #3 - Thanos
Posted by Paul O'Brien on July 21, 2002 at 09:38:23:
In Reply to: Re: Infinity Abyss #3 - Thanos
posted by Jeph! on July 20, 2002 at 23:37:21:

> But I thought the final reference, to "Thanos's construct's final battle 
with Thor and the Avengers" was referencing the mop-up of that crossover, 
not the recent "Celestial Quest" series.

No, I think from the context he's referring to a completely different 
storyline.  Were the Avengers even IN that Thor storyline, anyway?

For what it's worth, I think we can take it that this dialogue also deletes 
Thanos' appearances in Deadpool, since in that series Thanos was still 
obsessed with death, inconsistently with his behaviour in Infinity Abyss.

			*	*	*

Re: Infinity Abyss #3 - Thanos
Posted by Andy Holcombe on July 22, 2002 at 01:25:35:
In Reply to: Re: Infinity Abyss #3 - Thanos
posted by Jeph! on July 20, 2002 at 23:37:21:

> > The appearances by Thanos in Ka-Zar, Thor vol 2, and Avengers: Celestial 
Quest now need to be listed as appearances by 3 different Thanos constructs...

> I caught the Ka-Zar and Thor references (assuming that's that storyline a 
few years back that was a crossover with Warlock and Thor, where Thor went 
crazy ... something like that, yeah).

No, this would be the Thor versus Thanos storyline from Thor vol. 2.  As Jim 
Starlin wrote a lot of the crazy Thor (concluding in Blood and Thunder) 
storyline, I don't think he'd retcon it as a non-Thanos story.  By the way, 
I don't think the Avengers were involved in either of those stories.

> But I thought the final reference, to "Thanos's construct's final battle 
with Thor and the Avengers" was referencing the mop-up of that crossover, 
not the recent "Celestial Quest" series.

I'm pretty sure Celestial Quest was the only recent  Avengers/Thanos story.

> Am I wrong?  It seems far too recent a series to be retconning.  Besides, 
didn't Thanos and Moondragon have a conversation about Quoi (from A:CQ) in 
"Infinity Abyss" #1?

But that was a fake Thanos.  And nothing's too recent to retcon.  Just makes 
for frustation.

			*	*	*

Re: Infinity Abyss #3 - Thanos
Posted by SKleefeld on July 22, 2002 at 12:37:07:
In Reply to: Re: Infinity Abyss #3 - Thanos
posted by Andy Holcombe on July 22, 2002 at 01:25:35:

> > > The appearances by Thanos in Ka-Zar, Thor vol 2, and Avengers: Celestial 
Quest now need to be listed as appearances by 3 different Thanos constructs...

> > I caught the Ka-Zar and Thor references (assuming that's that storyline a 
few years back that was a crossover with Warlock and Thor, where Thor went 
crazy ... something like that, yeah).

> No, this would be the Thor versus Thanos storyline from Thor vol. 2.  As 
Jim Starlin wrote a lot of the crazy Thor (concluding in Blood and Thunder) 
storyline, I don't think he'd retcon it as a non-Thanos story.  By the way, 
I don't think the Avengers were involved in either of those stories.

> > But I thought the final reference, to "Thanos's construct's final battle 
with Thor and the Avengers" was referencing the mop-up of that crossover, not 
the recent "Celestial Quest" series.

> I'm pretty sure Celestial Quest was the only recent  Avengers/Thanos story.

> > Am I wrong?  It seems far too recent a series to be retconning.  Besides, 
didn't Thanos and Moondragon have a conversation about Quoi (from A:CQ) in 
"Infinity Abyss" #1?

> But that was a fake Thanos.  And nothing's too recent to retcon.  Just makes 
for frustation.

That's the answer! All we need to do to make the Kang War work, Jeph, is 
assume that A) Hank didn't actually merge back together in the Annual and 
there are two Hanks still running around; and B) that Iron Man didn't 
actually defeat Ultron and the sentient armor is still running thinking 
it's Stark! You know, we could also make the Captain America from Avengers #45 
a LMD, and we'll be all set!

We just fill in all the inconsistencies with fakes and this'll be easy!

We've already got a duplicate Black Panther running around! And there's two 
Black Widows now! We can get an alternate reality Invisible Woman that isn't 
pregnant! And split Hulk's personalities out so Banner can get cured of ALS 
while Hulk is in space! What if Spider-Man dressed up as Daredevil while 
Daredevil dressed up as Spider-Man? 

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

And then we'll give her former sidekick Weezie some more gamma-radiation, 
so we can have a She-Hulk in France in New York! And bring in some more 
Namora clones so Nita can hang out with Johnny while Attuma's got her 
captured! Oh, and bring back Teen Tony while we're at it! And we'll have 
Spirit of '76 resurrected so we can kill him in Cap #50!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Sorry, I'm better now.

Goddamn Kang War!

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Infinity Abyss #3 - Thanos
Posted by Jeph! on July 22, 2002 at 21:23:46:
In Reply to: Re: Infinity Abyss #3 - Thanos
posted by SKleefeld on July 22, 2002 at 12:37:07:

> Sorry, I'm better now.
> Goddamn Kang War!

Now that's comedy.  :)

	-Jeph!
...back to work, Kleefeld.

			*	*	*

Re: Infinity Abyss #3 - Galactus
Posted by Jeph! on July 20, 2002 at 23:31:15:
In Reply to: Infinity Abyss #3 - Galactus
posted by Paul O'Brien on July 20, 2002 at 10:33:50:

> Infinity Abyss #3 contains a brief scene showing Galactus...

> The catch is that this series supposedly takes place before the Kang War ... 
confirmed by the Avengers roster ... including Goliath rather than Yellowjacket.

> But Galactus was dead ... between Galactus The Devourer #6 and ... Fantastic 
Four #49.  FF #49 is part of the Abraxas storyline, and an earlier chapter in 
that storyline expressly placed it as taking place simultaneously with Kang's 
attack on the UN plaza - meaning that Galactus doesn't return until during, 
or shortly after, the Kang War.

> Which means he ought to be dead when Infinity Abyss #3 takes place...

Not necessarily.

Sean Kleefeld and I have been working on the whole Kang war mess non-stop 
for about two weeks now ... first on the board, and now through private 
e-mails.

Long story short, there are several story gaps we've found in Avengers #38-45 
in which to place the massive number of other comics that supposedly take 
place around them.  Placing the Abraxas Saga is relatively simple compared 
to some of the stuff we're working through now.

The idea goes that Kang destroyed the UN building, incited revolts all over 
the earth, and then sat back and waited.  And in our version, he waited for 
a little longer than you'd think.

FF3 #46 takes place on the same day as A3 #41-42, where Kang knocks down 
the UN.  The Abraxas Saga kicks off at that point as well, and takes a lot 
less time than the Kang War -- meaning it's over, and Galactus is back, by 
around the time of A3 #44.

(We're theorizing now that since the whole Saga involved lots of warped 
spacetime, that when Franklin reset things he may have turned the clock 
back -- ending the saga at the moment it began.  hey, he's a kid.)

In any case, we're now up to the time of A3 #44, when Kang's riots have 
been quelled, and Hank Pym has survived his health crisis but hasn't yet 
settled on a final identity.

Into this gap between A3 #44-45 we fit the Infinity Abyss series.  Hank 
is still acting as Goliath (we also see him as Goliath in IM3 #46, which 
presents its own set of problems), and Kang hasn't unloaded his troops yet 
(he does so in #46) and the Master's ring-walls haven't been raised yet (they 
are at the end of #45).

So:

A3 #41-42 - UN destroyed, Kang declares war
FF3 #46-49 - Galactus returns
A3 #43 - Avengers deal with uprisings
A@01 - Hank's health problems cured
A3 #44 - Hank has not yet chosen an identity
IA #1-6 - Goliath and Galactus feature
A3 #45 - Hank decides to become Yellowjacket

...Like I said, though, that's the simple version.  Right now Hank and his 
damned identities are actually causing the biggest problems to date, but 
this situation is relatively easily explained...

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Kang War Chronology
Posted by Wayne Watson on July 21, 2002 at 12:52:15:
In Reply to: Re: Infinity Abyss #3 - Galactus
posted by Jeph! on July 20, 2002 at 23:31:15:

Are you guys going to be so kind as to post your fianl results when you 
think you've got it? I, for one, am curious to see it. Alternatively, e-mail 
it to me if it isn't too much trouble.

Thanks!

			*	*	*

Re: Kang War Chronology
Posted by Jeph! on July 21, 2002 at 13:17:42:
In Reply to: Re: Kang War Chronology
posted by Wayne Watson on July 21, 2002 at 12:52:15:

Oh, we'll absolutely post it.  Right now we're stuck on one incredubly 
frustrating problem involving "Avengers: Ultron Imperative", but once we 
get over that hurdle, the whole thing should fall together very quickly.

I would post what we have, but we have several different versions going, 
all contingent on what we do with A:UI.

Needless to say, the final version will be posted and readily available 
for nitpicking/debunking.  :)  Be patient -- I'm guessing "within the week".

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Infinity Abyss #4 - Not Galactus After All
Posted by Don Campbell on July 25, 2002 at 12:43:35:
In Reply to: Infinity Abyss #3 - Galactus
posted by Paul O'Brien on July 20, 2002 at 10:33:50:

> Infinity Abyss #3 contains a brief scene showing Galactus doing, well, 
what he normally does.

Infinity Abyss #4 revealed that the shadowed figure seen consuming a Kree 
world in Infinity Abyss #3 was actually NOT the reborn Galactus. Instead, 
this planet-devourer was the mentioned-but-as-yet-unseen Omega replicant/clone 
created by Thanos so there never was any continuity conflict with the Kang 
War.

Still, I think that Jeph! did an excellent job fitting "Galactus" into the 
Kang War Chronology. And who knows? The real Galactus may still show up in 
the final two issues. After all, someone has to defeat this Galactus-level 
Thanos, right?

Two more points to make. First, according to Adam Warlock, this whole 
Infinity Abyss storyline has so far taken place in "less than 12 short 
hours." This will undoubtedly make it easier to fit into the whole Kang 
War chronology.

Second, almost all of Infinity Abyss so far has been presented as a 
FLASHBACK. The first three pages of Infinity Abyss #1 show a battered 
Adam Warlock watching Captain Marvel, Doctor Strange and Spider-Man going 
off to oppose the "approaching doom." Feeling that the situatuon is 
hopeless, Warlock begins reviewing how it came about, beginning with how 
Thanos was attacked "less than 12 short hours ago." The subsequent issues 
feature Warlock acting as the narrator and using the past tense as he does 
so. At some point, either at the end of IA #5 or the beginning of IA #6, 
the storyline will catch up with the first three pages of IA #1 and Warlock 
will no longer be narrating events in the past tense.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Warlock's narration mean that the 
chronology for any character involved in this limited series look like 
this:

IA 1-FB
IA 2-FB
IA 3-FB
IA 4-FB
IA 5-FB
IA 1 (pages 1-3)
IA 6

By the way, in looking over the chronology for Thanos, I noticed that 
Infinity Crusade is not included. Is that because it falls within a Gap?

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Is ANYTHING in SPIDER-MAN: BLUE canon?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 20, 2002 at 12:10:58:

After noting certain discrepencies in established continuity in Spider-Man: 
Blue #1-2 in previous postings, I read Spider-Man: Blue #3 and compared the 
storyline with the synopses for ASM 44-46 in the Official Index to the 
Amazing Spider-Man #2, and sure enough, things in Spider-Man: Blue don't 
agree with events in ASM again.

In Spider-Man: Blue #3: Peter does not introduce Mary Jane to Flash, Harry, 
and Gwen -- she introduces herself because Peter is late getting to the 
Silver Spoon; Peter and Gwen go to Penn Station, where the Lizard is causing 
trouble and Spidey battles the Lizard there -- but in ASM 44, the battle 
occurs elsewhere the next day, without MJ around, and Spidey was not at 
Penn Station when the Lizard first surfaced; the next battle with the Lizard 
occurs at Curt Conners' lab, not on a train as in ASM 45, and the Lizard is 
subdued by liquid nitrogen rather than by the cold temperature of a 
refrigerator car as in ASM 45; Harry asks Pete to be his apartment mate that 
evening on Pete's front porch, but that scene took place later (after an 
encounter with the Shocker), in ASM 46, while Harry gives Pete a lift to 
the Daily Bugle.

Enough!  I've concluded that, rather than providing canon continuity 
implants, Spider-Man: Blue is simply non-canon.  Anyone agree?

Paul

			*	*	*

CACTUS...CALLISTO...CANNONBALL
Posted by Arthur Stein on July 21, 2002 at 10:05:58:

new entries marked **

CACTUS

**WCA2 17
WCA2 24
ASPOT 26/2

CALLISTO

UX 214
**UX 215
UX 216

CANNONBALL II/SAM GUTHRIE

XFOR 4
**XFOR 5
W2 54
XF 77
XFOR 6

			*	*	*

Jack O'Lantern and Mad Jack
Posted by Herman Schultz on July 22, 2002 at 22:43:18:

These are two different characters. Jack O'Lantern II uses the same gear as 
the original Jack O'Lantern and has a slightly different look. Mad Jack uses 
various Mysterio techniques. I believe combining them as one character in 
the Chronology Project is a mistake.

			*	*	*

Re: Jack O'Lantern and Mad Jack
Posted by Hal cyon on July 29, 2002 at 14:48:34:
In Reply to: Jack O'Lantern and Mad Jack
posted by Herman Schultz on July 22, 2002 at 22:43:18:

I disagree.  There's no evidence that the Jack O'Lantern who appeared the 
Captain America comics and the Jack O'Lantern / Mad Jack who appeared in 
the Spider-Man comics are different characters.  Jack's arsenal and tricks 
are virtually identical throughout.  Any differences in speech patterns 
and other behavioural quirks can be chalked up to different writers handling 
the character.

HC

			*	*	*

Spider-man chronology problems
Posted by Ian Rusten on July 23, 2002 at 09:58:46:

There are some problems with the Spider-Man chronology.

Briefly- DF 107-9 occur immediately before MTU 119.  Also- there are major 
problems with the chronology of SM around AS 236-251. AS 238, MTU 127 and 
AS ANN 16 must all occur before PPSS 74 (the return of the Black Cat), 
MTU 128 (This story refers to the Black Cat being in the hospital and Doc 
Ock on the loose- placing it after PPSS 76, but before PPSS 77-79.  Also 
MTU 137, M Fanfare 47 and MTU 138 and PPSS 86 all occur before SM loses his 
spider sense in AS 249. PPSS 86 page 22-23 occur after AS 251.  MTU 139- which 
shows JJJ still on the job (he resigns as editor in AS 251)- must take place 
during AS 250 (there is room for some gaps).  This seems to be the way it 
works

			*	*	*

Spider-man additional questions
Posted by Ian Rusten on July 23, 2002 at 10:23:23:

You have not added the 3 issue Spider-Man: Hobgoblin Lives limited series 
from 1997 that solved a number of chronology problems- it showed that 
Roderick Kingsley was the Hobgoblin and that he brainwashed Ned Leeds 
after AS 251.  Also- in the Spider-man chronology you have his app in MTU 
ANN 5 way after MTU 113, but in the Quasar listing you have it before. I 
believe the first has to be correct.  Also- I can think of no reason why 
you have placed MTU ANN 6 as occuring before MTU ANN 5 in Spider-Man's 
chronology- there is nothing in the comic that makes that necessary and 
it does not fit in with the Cloak and Dagger chronology.

			*	*	*

Sue Richards' pregnancy
Posted by Matt on July 23, 2002 at 13:34:52:

I haven't read FF in a while, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me 
when Sue annouced her pregnancy in FF v.3?

			*	*	*

Re: Sue Richards' pregnancy
Posted by BobMM on July 23, 2002 at 15:00:12:
In Reply to: Sue Richards' pregnancy
posted by Matt on July 23, 2002 at 13:34:52:

She didn't announce it, she just WAS, at the end of FF #49. 

Reed used the Ultimate Nullifier to wipe out the entire M.U., then Franklin 
put it all back with a few pieces in new places.  One of those changes was to 
"unborn" Valeria Von Doom and stick her back in Sue's womb.

If anybody wants to straighten me out on this, please go ahead. I don't 
pretend to fully understand the story.

			*	*	*

Re: Sue Richards' pregnancy
Posted by SKleefeld on July 24, 2002 at 11:37:15:
In Reply to: Re: Sue Richards' pregnancy
posted by BobMM on July 23, 2002 at 15:00:12:

No, that's pretty much what happened.

Now, see if you can resolve her pregnancy with all of her non-pregnant 
appearances in other books!

Kidding! Jeph and I have that worked out. On somewhat of a side note, I think 
we made major breakthrough last night in the Kang War chronology. I think 
we've just got a handful of (relatively unobtrusive) titles to drop back into 
place and we should be good to go.

Stay tuned!

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Time travelling
Posted by Jonathan Coxhead on July 24, 2002 at 15:18:29:

   I just read "Dr Strange: A Separate Reality" trade collection, so I had 
a look to see if the events recounted there were in the MCP. They weren't!

   This story contains Dr Strange's chronologically first appearance: at the 
dawn of creation, along with Baron Mordo and Sise-Neg (also known as 
Cagliostro, God, Jevovah, Yahweh etc).

   Admittedly, from Dr Strange's own perspective, these events occurred 
"in sequence" with the other events in the issue---but surely, the point 
of the chronology project is to "unravel" the subjective order, and work 
out the order in which the events happened from the point of view of a 
detached observer. From that POV, there are other timeframes to add, 
including Paris c1795, sometime in the age of Dinosaurs, and the formation 
of the earth.

   Would there be any interest in adding them? I guess I can do the work 
of analysis, if you like.

   (Also, were the Dr Strange stories in Marvel Premiere #5, 7, 8 reprints?)

			*	*	*

Re: Time travelling
Posted by Jhaeman on July 24, 2002 at 19:00:43:
In Reply to: Time travelling
posted by Jonathan Coxhead on July 24, 2002 at 15:18:29:

Actually, I think it makes more sense to have the Project work chronologically 
from the character's perspective.  Having it from an "objective observer's" 
perspective would simply be tremendously confusing for the reader, because, 
for example, he would see Dr. Strange in 17th Century France before he saw 
the Dr. Strange origin in the 20th Century.  When faced with time-travel, any 
objective observer would be hopelessly lost to figure out what is going on.  
But from a subjective perspective, it is easy to understand what the character 
is experiencing.

			*	*	*

Re: Time travelling
Posted by Jonathan Coxhead on July 29, 2002 at 16:49:18:
In Reply to: Re: Time travelling
posted by Jhaeman on July 24, 2002 at 19:00:43:

> Actually, I think it makes more sense to have the Project work 
chronologically from the character's perspective.

   OK, that makes sense. But it's only half the story.

   We like a chronology for 2 reasons: it tells us where to find the next 
appearance of a character, and it also tells us the chronological order of 
the stories.

   These 2 concepts are the same in the real world, but if you throw time 
travel into the mix, then they become different.

   For instance, when Dr Strange went back to ancient Egypt, he observed 
the meeting of the Fantastic Four with Rama-Tut. So there are at least 3 
chronologies here already: the FF's next appearance, Dr Strange's, and Rama 
Tut/Kang's. You can follow each of these in the MCP. They overlap, and those 
issues occur in 1 order in the FF chronology, and in the opposite order in 
the Dr Strange chronology.

   But there is a 4th chronology, which is unavailable in the MCP at present: 
What Happened Next?? (in ordinary time order)

> Having it from an "objective observer's" perspective would simply be 
tremendously confusing for the reader, because, for example, he would see 
Dr. Strange in 17th Century France before he saw the Dr. Strange origin in 
the 20th Century.

   I agree that having only the "absolute" chronology wouldn't be good: you 
certainly want to know where every character appeared next. That's what we 
have.

   I also want to know what the next event in sequence was ...

> When faced with time-travel, any objective observer would be hopelessly 
lost to figure out what is going on.  But from a subjective perspective, it 
is easy to understand what the character is experiencing.

   Exactly.

   Every chronology of the Marvel Universe should begin (for some way of 
looking at it) with an entry that says ...

3000000000BC Universe created by Sise-Neg, observed by Dr Strange and Baron 
Mordo. (Causeless loop. [see footnote])

   Of course, that's not the real first entry, because we know some of what 
happened in the previous universe. But it's the first for this universe.

   I would be very interested to help in constructing the extra chronology 
that I would like to see. It would be a big project: all the various time 
travel stories would have to be read, and understood concerning which time 
period (or periods) they portray. Then it would be necessary to work out 
how the different time periods relate to each other (which ones are 
consistent, which ones have diverged, and which others where it may be an 
open question).

   Most stories take place in "the present". It would also be interesting 
to work out how much time has passed since various landmark events (eg, FF#1). 
Can we add up the various captions that say "Next day ..." in different 
titles, and say with confidence FF#1 happened (at least) 10 years ago?

   Maybe ...

   But that's a project which is much bigger again. It would be fun to try, 
though!

   Over the next couple of weeks, I will try to work out a compact way of 
representing this information so it can be edited with a text editor, and 
parsed by software to produce pretty graphical displays. Then I'll try to 
apply it to a test case (the 3 recent Englehart collections) and see what 
I come up with.

   Would anyone else be interested to see the results, or shall I just keep 
it for my own amusement?

   (Footnote: It seems there are various ways of travelling through time: 
some, for reasons we don't understand, result in divergent universes. Others 
do not. There seems to be a built-in resistance to divergence: the universe 
will not diverge unless it's the only way to avoid a paradox. In the case 
we have here, there is no divergence---Sise-Neg created his own universe. 
This is not a paradox: it may be that that's just the way the universe is. 
It has "loops". There are many similar examples in fiction, the most famous 
being "By His Bootstraps" by Robert A Heinlein. Hence the comment "causeless 
loop". Every case of time travel should be marked either "causeless loop" or 
"divergence".)

			*	*	*

Re: Time travelling
Posted by Dimadick on July 30, 2002 at 02:08:07:
In Reply to: Re: Time travelling
posted by Jonathan Coxhead on July 29, 2002 at 16:49:18:

  What you suggest sounds more like recording the history of the Marvel 
Universe. Sometime ago I got interested in finding out if anybody has tried 
to create such a history based on the various references and putting some 
logical order in Marvel mythology.

  Robert Wicks and Richard Porter had combined extensive histories but 
their sites seem to be gone for some time now. Maybe you could use Jess 
Nevins' information on the Marvel heroes before FF#1 

1)Guide to Golden Age heroes
 
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7160/gaguide.html

2)Guide to pre-FF#1 retcon heroes

http://www.geocities.com/ratmmjess/toc.html

I would sure be interested in whatever history you could come up with.

			*	*	*

Re: Time travelling
Posted by Jonathan Coxhead on July 30, 2002 at 14:55:58:
In Reply to: Re: Time travelling
posted by Dimadick on July 30, 2002 at 02:08:07:

   Interesting. Thanks for that, and thanks for your support.

> 1)Guide to Golden Age heroes

> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7160/gaguide.html

> 2)Guide to pre-FF#1 retcon heroes

> http://www.geocities.com/ratmmjess/toc.html

> I would sure be interested in whatever history you could come up with.

   It won't be a history---more a "guide to annotating" so that it's 
reasonably easy to take historical info from published stories, and put 
it in a form that's easy to understand for people and machines.

   One of the problems is that "Marvel time" keeps moving on: when it says 
"1974" in the Celestial Madonna saga, it doesn't really mean that (and it 
never did, really). It just means "the present". 

   I think I might take Avengers Forever with me as well ... that should 
torture any annotation system to hell! (Or at least Limbo. :-)

   So---Is anyone else interested?

			*	*	*

Re: Time travelling
Posted by Andy Holcombe on July 30, 2002 at 20:08:31:
In Reply to: Re: Time travelling
posted by Dimadick on July 30, 2002 at 02:08:07:

>   What you suggest sounds more like recording the history of the Marvel 
Universe.

You may also be interested in the Unofficial Chronology to the Marvel 
Universe 
( http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7160/wicksint.html ).

			*	*	*

Re: Time travelling
Posted by Dimadick on July 31, 2002 at 01:15:45:
In Reply to: Re: Time travelling
posted by Andy Holcombe on July 30, 2002 at 20:08:31:

That is the Robert Wicks site I already mentioned. But for the last couple 
of days only the Introduction page works and it isn't browsable. It has 
something to do with Robert having to up-date his account.

			*	*	*

Re: Time travelling
Posted by Andy Holcombe on August 01, 2002 at 02:33:38:
In Reply to: Re: Time travelling
posted by Dimadick on July 31, 2002 at 01:15:45:

> That is the Robert Wicks site I already mentioned.

The end of the address was different, so I posted what I had.

			*	*	*

Re: Time travelling
Posted by Dimadick on August 01, 2002 at 05:27:07:
In Reply to: Re: Time travelling
posted by Andy Holcombe on August 01, 2002 at 02:33:38:

> The end of the address was different, so I posted what I had.

I just mentioned Robert's site. I didn't gave an udress since it isn't working.

			*	*	*

Re: Time travelling
Posted by Andy Holcombe on August 01, 2002 at 18:56:54:
In Reply to: Re: Time travelling
posted by Dimadick on August 01, 2002 at 05:27:07:

You're right.  I misread your initial post.

			*	*	*

10-year-old MU...
Posted by Jeph! on August 01, 2002 at 01:48:45:
In Reply to: Re: Time travelling
posted by Jonathan Coxhead on July 29, 2002 at 16:49:18:

> It would also be interesting to work out how much time has passed since 
various landmark events (eg, FF#1). Can we add up the various captions 
that say "Next day ..." in different titles, and say with confidence FF#1 
happened (at least) 10 years ago?

Just in passing, this made me think:

The Beast celebrated his 20th birthday in "X-Men: the Hidden Years" #22, and 
he was grousing about having his 30th birthday in "X-Men" #30 or thereabouts.

Since XHY 22 came out after X 30, we actually have John Byrne to thank for 
"confirming" a 10-plus-year MU.  Ironically, he was also the loudest defender 
of his notion that it's only been 7 years since FF 1...

Heh.  Comic irony.

By the way, since the Beast was recruited for the X-Men out of high school, 
he was 18 then, and it's surely been a "year" since X 30 ... so the MU is 
now around 13 years long, based on Beast's age.  Perhaps longer, even.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: 10-year-old MU...
Posted by Scott Hutchins on August 01, 2002 at 21:19:14:
In Reply to: 10-year-old MU...
posted by Jeph! on August 01, 2002 at 01:48:45:

That doesn't really explain how so many current events could have affected 
the MU, such as the energy crisis and Vietnam War impacting the comics of 
the 1970s.

			*	*	*

Re: 10-year-old MU...
Posted by wonderfly on August 02, 2002 at 14:57:14:
In Reply to: 10-year-old MU...
posted by Jeph! on August 01, 2002 at 01:48:45:

LOL.  I remember reading John Bryne's thoughts on this back in either 99 or 
2000.  I thought to myself, "7 years?  No way only 7 years has passed in the 
Marvel Universe.

I long ago worked out a system in my head that made every three years of real 
time equal 1 year of Marvel Universe time.  

I didn't know others had worked this out though.  

This especially works for comics of the 60's and 70s, when they did less 
chronology passing.

I figured 13 or 14 years having passed is about right. Now, though, the 
last few years, we may see more time passing in the real world equaling 
the amount of time passing in the MU.

Take into account a six month gap in the X books when Claremont took over 
the titles a few years ago.  Plus, all the time passing inbetween events 
currently inbetween issues of Avengers.  And we have so many crossovers 
nowadays, we have to find time to put all these characters in different 
books.

So is time passing quicker now in the Marvel Universe?

			*	*	*

Re: 10-year-old MU...
Posted by Jeph! on August 03, 2002 at 10:11:19:
In Reply to: Re: 10-year-old MU...
posted by Scott Hutchins on August 01, 2002 at 21:19:14:

> That doesn't really explain how so many current events could have affected 
the MU, such as the energy crisis and Vietnam War impacting the comics of the 
1970s.

Nothing can explain this.  It's the joys of "Marvel Time".

You just have to ignore the topical references and focus in the in-comic 
time references, like character birthdays and "six months later"-type gaps.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: 10-year-old MU...
Posted by garbonzo on August 03, 2002 at 15:04:13:
In Reply to: Re: 10-year-old MU...
posted by Jeph! on August 03, 2002 at 10:11:19:

> Nothing can explain this.  It's the joys of "Marvel Time".

> You just have to ignore the topical references and focus in the in-comic 
time references, like character birthdays and "six months later"-type gaps.

So then how do we rectify comments like "I don't know how Reed Richards 
zapped you back into bein' Mr. Monster of 1976 (FF #170 pg. 23) with 
announcements such as Danny Rand confiding that he has summoned K'un Lun 
to arrive on Earth at the dawn of he new millenium?  I am willing to allow 
bell bottoms, disco, and even the Beyonder's very 80's clothing and hair, 
all to exist in this 13 year universe, but there are many instances where 
real-time is cited.  Do we chalk it up to being fixed every time Reed uses 
the ultimate nullifyer?  

Just a thought from someone who has long been bothered by this.

garbonzo

			*	*	*

Re: 10-year-old MU...
Posted by DCW3 on August 04, 2002 at 14:49:17:
In Reply to: 10-year-old MU...
posted by Jeph! on August 01, 2002 at 01:48:45:

> The Beast celebrated his 20th birthday in "X-Men: the Hidden Years" #22, 
and he was grousing about having his 30th birthday in "X-Men" #30 or 
thereabouts.

> Since XHY 22 came out after X 30, we actually have John Byrne to thank 
for "confirming" a 10-plus-year MU.  Ironically, he was also the loudest 
defender of his notion that it's only been 7 years since FF 1...

> Heh.  Comic irony.

> By the way, since the Beast was recruited for the X-Men out of high school, 
he was 18 then, and it's surely been a "year" since X 30 ... so the MU is 
now around 13 years long, based on Beast's age.  Perhaps longer, even.

I may be totally wrong, since I don't have the issue at hand, but as I recall, 
in Uncanny X-Men #138 (Phoenix's funeral), the tombstone reads "Jean Grey 
1955-1980". The dates are obviously topical, but this would seem to mean that 
Jean was supposed to be about 25 at the time of UX 138. Since the original 
X-Men were around 17 or 18 in X-Men #1 (Beast was a little older, Iceman a 
little younger), this would mean seven or eight years of Marvel time had 
already elapsed since UX 1 at this relatively early point in the X-Men's 
chronology. If one were to extrapolate, assuming a constant relative rate 
of time flow between real and Marvel time (ah, you know what I'm talking 
about), it would mean that 15-20 years of Marvel time have passed since UX 1, 
which doesn't really seem right. Does anyone have UX 138 and can back me up 
on the dates?

			*	*	*

Jean Grey's tombstone
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 05, 2002 at 07:45:37:
In Reply to: Re: 10-year-old MU...
posted by DCW3 on August 04, 2002 at 14:49:17:

The dates on the tombstone are 1956 - 1980.

			*	*	*

Re: Jean Grey's tombstone
Posted by DCW3 on August 05, 2002 at 12:38:33:
In Reply to: Jean Grey's tombstone
posted by Arthur Stein on August 05, 2002 at 07:45:37:

Close enough. That fits a little bit better.

Thanks!

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men ages
Posted by Jeph! on August 05, 2002 at 20:11:02:
In Reply to: Jean Grey's tombstone
posted by Arthur Stein on August 05, 2002 at 07:45:37:

> The dates on the tombstone are 1956 - 1980.

So Jean was 23, eh?  That STILL doesn't fit too well, given that she was 
around 14 when she joined the X-Men in #1 -- that would mean that nine 
years had passed by then.  Ugh.

Eh.  Who cares -- after a certain point, you have to shrug and go "it's 
fiction".  I mean, Kitty Pryde said she was sixteen in UX #379, then said 
she was eighteen and a half in XU #36.  Both issues by the same writer.

Scott said he was twenty-five in X #51, twenty issues after the Beast turned 
30.  Yet in "Hideen Years" #22, at Beast's 20th birthday, Scott commented 
that he was "nipping at his heels" age-wise.

Jubilee said she was thirteen and a half in Gen-X #1.  Professor X was said 
to be forty-two in New X-Men #123.  I'm thinking that everybody just lies 
constantly about their age in the MU.

The alternative is that it's all made up, most of it on the spot.  ;)

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men ages
Posted by Don Campbell on August 06, 2002 at 00:10:45:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men ages
posted by Jeph! on August 05, 2002 at 20:11:02:

> > The dates on the tombstone are 1956 - 1980.

> So Jean was 23, eh?  That STILL doesn't fit too well, given that she was 
around 14 when she joined the X-Men in #1 -- that would mean that nine years 
had passed by then.  Ugh.

> The alternative is that it's all made up, most of it on the spot.  ;)

Just for interest's sake, here's an editorial response that deals with how 
long Jean and Scott have been involved. Oh, I should mention that it comes 
from the letters page of UNCANNY X-MEN #124, cover-dated August, 1979, which 
was...TWENTY-THREE YEARS AGO!?! Where does the time go.

"Time and again, we read and hear references to Scott and Jean's 14 year 
romance. If that were the case--assuming they were 18 and 17 years old 
respectively when they met--both of them would be in their early to middle 
thirties! However, as they AREN'T in their thirties, they can't possibly 
have been together 14 years. In fact, the rule of thumb used at Marvel is 
that it's been maybe five or six years since Xavier founded the X-Men, IF 
THAT--which means that Jean and Scott have been together and in love for 
maybe three or four years."

Assuming this statement is accurate and Jean was 23/24 when she supposedly 
died, that means that she had been an X-Man for six or seven years, not 
nine.

If we take this statement as our guide, then 18 years of X-Men stories 
(published from 1961 to 1979) were compressed into five or six years. If 
this ratio were accepted for the Marvel Universe as a whole, that would mean 
that "Marvel Time" flows at about one-third the rate of time in the so-called 
"real world." That would make Scott and Jean almost 32 and 31, respectively.

Don Campbell

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Re: Time travelling
Posted by Philippe Boulier on July 25, 2002 at 12:14:09:
In Reply to: Time travelling
posted by Jonathan Coxhead on July 24, 2002 at 15:18:29:

>    (Also, were the Dr Strange stories in Marvel Premiere #5, 7, 8 
reprints?)

No reprints in these issues. These were original stories, written by Gardner 
F. Fox and drawn by Irv Wesley (#5), P. Craig Russell (#7) and Jim 
Starlin (#8).

Marvel Premiere #11 reprinted Dr. Strange stories from Strange Tales #115 & 
#117.

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CAPTAIN AMERICA...CARDINAL...PEGGY CARTER
Posted by Arthur Stein on July 25, 2002 at 17:24:40:

new entries marked **

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN "STEVE" GRANT ROGERS

A 272
**AF 39
A 272

The same insert of AF 39 amidst A 272 holds true for the other Avengers 
present:
Black Knight IV, Captain Marvel II, Wasp, Hercules (the entry already exists 
for Sub-Mariner)

CARDINAL/CLEMDENON

(name is cleNdenon (NW35, NW 54, NW 55), Joshua (NW35)

NW 28
**NW 35
NW 54

CARTER, PEGGY

CA 376-BTS
**CA 377
Q 20-BTS
CA 379

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Iron Man 2020 in Machine Man Limited Series
Posted by Brian Cook on July 25, 2002 at 19:23:40:

Does anyone know which issues of the Machine Man Limited Series (vol. 2) 
featured the Iron Man of 2020 (Arno Stark)?

Thanks!

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Re: Iron Man 2020 in Machine Man Limited Series
Posted by Arthur Stein on July 25, 2002 at 21:12:32:
In Reply to: Iron Man 2020 in Machine Man Limited Series
posted by Brian Cook on July 25, 2002 at 19:23:40:

Issues 2, 3 and 4

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Wolverine Chronology
Posted by Matt on July 26, 2002 at 20:41:08:

Here's a list of comics that show actual events of Logan's past pre-Hulk 
and X-Men in chronological order:

Origin 1-6
Uncanny X-Men 266
Wolverine 34
Logan: Path of the Warlord
Logan: Shadow Society
Weapon X saga: Marvel Comics Presents 72-84
Alpha Flight -1
Wolverine -1
Wolverine/Cable: Guts and Glory
Alpha Flight 1992 Annual

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More Spider-Man chronology changes
Posted by Ian Rusten on July 27, 2002 at 13:39:55:

Spider-Man's appearances in Web of Spiderman 14 and 15 must take place 
inbetween PPSS 112 and AS 275.  In Web 15 Nathan Lubensky is still in the 
hospital (recovering from a beating he got in AS 271), he is released in 
AS 275- so Web 15 must occur before AS 275.

On top of this- Peters apt which is destroyed in Web 12, is fixed in Web 15 
and appears intact in AS 275.

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QUEEN CASIOLENA...CHANCE II...CHEMISTRO
Posted by Arthur Stein on July 29, 2002 at 16:26:22:

new entries marked **

CASIOLENA, QUEEN

**A 83-FB  (the A 83 entry should read A 83-FB as the only appearance of 
Queen Casiolena is in the Enchantresss recounting of when the Executioner 
deserted her)
**DEF 4FB (On pages 11-12 the Black Knight tells the others how he came 
to be captured weeks ago. Queen Casiolena appears in the flashback)
DEF 4
**DEF 66
**DEF 67

 (The A 83-FB scene mentioned above applies to the Enchantress as well. 
The entry already exists for the Executioner)

ENCHANTRESS

H2 102
**A 83-FB 
A 83

CHANCE II/NICHOLAS POWELL

WOSM 15
** DD246
ASM 298

(re placement: DD 248 is prior to PPTSS 133  <as per Kingpin entry> which is 
prior to Chances appearance in ASM 298-9; so DD 246 is prior to ASM 298) 

CHEMISTRO this is primarily to add the listing for CHEMISTRO II, but filled 
in some flashback entries for the other two as well

CHEMISTRO/CURTIS CARR

**LCHFH 12-FB (pgs 6-7 creation of the alchemy gun)
LCHFH 12
**PM 37-FB (pg 26 time in jail)
PM 37
PM 38
PM 39
**PM&IF 94-FB (pg 5  meets his released brother Calvin, loses alchemy gun)
PM&IF 94
PM&IF 96
IM 251
IM 252
DLOK2 11

**CHEMISTRO II/ARCH MORTON

**PM 37-FB (pg 26-27 meets Curtis in jail,gets released, gains power)
**PM 37
**PM 38
**PM 39

CHEMISTRO III/**CALVIN CARR
**PM&IF 94-FB (pg 5  went to brothers, stole alchemy gun)
PM&IF 93
PM&IF 94
PM&IF 96
IM 251
IM 252

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What happened to the Vault?
Posted by Matt on July 29, 2002 at 20:11:56:

Is it still being used as the source for incarcerating Marvel's major baddies, 
or are they using the Cage now? If so, when did they start using the Cage?

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Re: What happened to the Vault?
Posted by The Beetle on August 02, 2002 at 06:55:46:
In Reply to: What happened to the Vault?
posted by Matt on July 29, 2002 at 20:11:56:

The Vault was destroyed in Heroes For Hire #1

