More Spider chronology changes
Posted by Ian Rusten on August 02, 2002 at 10:43:39:

Your chronology has more errors for Spidey that should be changed.  In ASM 303 
JJJ reports that Joe Robertson is on sick leave- this is because he was 
attacked by Tombstone in PPSSM 139, so PPSSM 139 happens between ASM 302 
and 303. Probably ASM 303-5 happen, than PPSSM 140-42.  Also in PPSSM 137, 
Peter refers to his visit to his school in ASm 299, so your chronology is 
wrong. It should probably be WSM 37, ASM 298,299: PPSSM 137: WS 38 and than 
ASM 300 (there is room for a break between ASM 299 and 300). I also think 
that PPSSM 134-36 precede WS 35-37

			*	*	*

CLASH...CLEA...CLEOPATRA
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 02, 2002 at 15:09:42:

new entries marked **

CLASH/

ASMSS 1/3
**S-MSS 1/3

plus similar entries for the most of the rest of Shadowforce Alpha: 
CORDITE, FLARE, SHELL, SHOT, STAMPEDE

CLEA

M/PRM 8
DEF 7
**M/PRM 10  (pg 17)
DEF 8
GSDEF 1

CLEOPATRA

** TS 44  (Roman invasion so I place it prior to her friendly relations 
with Julius Caesar as portrayed in next appearance DRSTR3 33)
DRSTR3 33
ST 124/2

			*	*	*

Celestials
Posted by Dan Hatem on August 03, 2002 at 22:29:19:

Can anyone tell me some issues where Celestials appear?

			*	*	*

Re: Celestials
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 03, 2002 at 23:06:23:
In Reply to: Celestials
posted by Dan Hatem on August 03, 2002 at 22:29:19:

Use this site to look up appearences under:

Arishem, Dreaming Celestial, Eson, Exitar, Gammenon, Hargen, Jemiah, 
Nezarr, One Above All, Oneg, Ziran

Enjoy!

			*	*	*

Infinity
Posted by Dan Hatem on August 03, 2002 at 22:32:59:

Who is Infinity - the being who melds with Eternity in Infinity War 6?

			*	*	*

Re: Infinity
Posted by Don Campbell on August 06, 2002 at 00:36:34:
In Reply to: Infinity posted by Dan Hatem on August 03, 2002 at 22:32:59:

Eternity and Infinity are "two" conceptual beings who embody everything 
within the dimensional universe which contains Marvel Earth. Eternity is 
the personification of the temporal aspect of the universe while Infinity 
is the personification of the spatial aspect of the universe. Although 
they are often treated like two separate beings and sometimes appear as 
such, "they" are actually just two different aspects of the same being. 
They are commonly described as being "two sides of the same coin."

Given "their" situation, perhaps the entries for both Eternity and Infinity 
should be combined into a single listing for "Eternity/Infinity." After 
all, whenever one of them appears in a story, the other one is there too, 
just "behind the scences."

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Thanos and the Reality Gem
Posted by Dan Hatem on August 03, 2002 at 23:10:28:

In what issue is it revealed to readers that Thanos is in possession of 
the Infinity Reality Gem?

			*	*	*

Re: Thanos and the Reality Gem
Posted by Don Campbell on August 06, 2002 at 00:20:51:
In Reply to: Thanos and the Reality Gem
posted by Dan Hatem on August 03, 2002 at 23:10:28:

It was in WARLOCK CHRONICLES #2 that Thanos was revealed to be the keeper 
of the Reality Gem. Also, the keeper of the Reality Gem DID make two 
appearances prior to that issue, once as a telepathic voice (in WARLOCK 
AND THE INFINITY WATCH #5) and a second time as a shadowy figure from 
whom the Goddess was stealing the Reality Gem (INFINITY CRUSADE #1). 
However, neither story revealed that the Reality Guardian was Thanos.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Search the MCP
Posted by Jimmy on August 04, 2002 at 15:18:55:

No one probably remember, but I made a promise a couple of months ago that 
I were going to do a search engine for the MCP. And here it is!

http://www.mycgiserver.com/~marvels/searchthemcp.htm

What do you think?

			*	*	*

Re: Search the MCP
Posted by Jimmy on August 07, 2002 at 12:30:06:
In Reply to: Search the MCP
posted by Jimmy on August 04, 2002 at 15:18:55:

Ok, I can see what you have searched for and I see that I need to 
straighten out a couple of things:

You have to use CAPITAL LETTERS.

If you are going to search for a comic, you have to use the codes that the 
MCP uses.

For example Wolverine 64 will become W2 64.

Russ, is this okey with you? I have no plans to make this search engine a 
part of my site, because, well, it is your site. An alternative could be 
to make it a part of your site?

			*	*	*

Re: Search the MCP
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 07, 2002 at 19:13:31:
In Reply to: Re: Search the MCP
posted by Jimmy on August 07, 2002 at 12:30:06:

I'm thrilled with it. I'd eagerly offer it on our site, extending full 
credit for the programming to you, of course. I'm excited when people 
take our efforts (such as your graphs, or the recent study on social 
networks in Spain) and find new and entertaining uses for it.

What's the next step?

			*	*	*

Re: Search the MCP
Posted by Jimmy on August 11, 2002 at 15:40:13:
In Reply to: Re: Search the MCP
posted by Russ Chappell on August 07, 2002 at 19:13:31:

Okey, lets do it. How do you want the layout to make it fit with the rest 
of the site?

			*	*	*

Re: Search the MCP
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 12, 2002 at 21:55:28:
In Reply to: Re: Search the MCP
posted by Jimmy on August 11, 2002 at 15:40:13:

The layout needs are fairly simple:

1. MCP logo at the top of the page

2. Navigation bar running down the left

3. White background

			*	*	*

Re: Search the MCP
Posted by Jimmy on August 16, 2002 at 14:50:31:
In Reply to: Re: Search the MCP
posted by Russ Chappell on August 12, 2002 at 21:55:28:

Well, that shouldn't be any problem.

The problem is, though, that my computer doesn't work for the moment. So 
I'll have to fix that first...

			*	*	*

CLOAK...CLOWN...COACHWHIP
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 06, 2002 at 16:25:40:

new entries marked **

CLOAK/TYRONE JOHNSON

IG 4
**IG 6  
M/SH3 6/3

(IG 6 is prior to M/SH3 6/3 in Daggers chronology so it follows thats 
where it fits here too)

CLOWN/"CRAFTY" ELIOT FRANKLIN

T 173
**PM 24
**PM 25
HTD 27

COACHWHIP

**CA 341/2   (pg 7  Coachwhip is seen on one of the hall monitors)
CA 342
CA 355

			*	*	*

Wonder Man chronology help needed...
Posted by merc on August 06, 2002 at 20:56:46:

Wonder Man is listed as showing up in "Wonder Man #1" in two places.  In 
between Avengers #188 and Avengers Annual #9 is the first listing.  The 
second is in between Marvel Graphic Novel #17 and Beauty and The Beast #1.

My question is this:  Did Wonder Man have 2 one-shots instead of 1?  

Any help would be great.

			*	*	*

Re: Wonder Man chronology help needed...
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 07, 2002 at 19:17:29:
In Reply to: Wonder Man chronology help needed...
posted by merc on August 06, 2002 at 20:56:46:

I'd be willing to bet that the second one is a mistake, but we'll see if 
anyone else has thoughts on the issue before I delete it.

			*	*	*

Re: Wonder Man chronology help needed...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 08, 2002 at 07:29:20:
In Reply to: Re: Wonder Man chronology help needed...
posted by Russ Chappell on August 07, 2002 at 19:17:29:

The second listing is incorrect and should be deleted.  Good eye, Merc.

Paul

			*	*	*

But...
Posted by merc on August 08, 2002 at 18:45:51:
In Reply to: Re: Wonder Man chronology help needed...
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 08, 2002 at 07:29:20:

I went out and bought Wonder Man #1 today, and in it Ant-man said that 
Stane took over Stark Industries, and that he was looking for a job.

So wouldn't that make the second listing the correct one?

<sorry to be a pain on this subject!>

			*	*	*

Re: But...
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 08, 2002 at 21:01:15:
In Reply to: But...
posted by merc on August 08, 2002 at 18:45:51:

Boom. So has merc uncovered a mistake in the Index?

			*	*	*

Re: But...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 08, 2002 at 21:58:57:
In Reply to: Re: But...
posted by Russ Chappell on August 08, 2002 at 21:01:15:

It sure looks like it!  I rechecked my copy of Wonder Man, Vol. 1 #1, 
and there's no denying those Scott Lang thought balloons.  Besides, the 
publishing date of 1986 would lead one to place the story later in time.

Placement between M/GN 17 and Beauty & the Beast #1 makes sense considering 
the Vision's chronology.  He is shown as an able-bodied member of the 
Avengers in WM1 1, and given Stane's takeover in IM 174, this would mean 
the Vision had to appear in WM1 1 sometime between A 243 and 252, and that's 
when both M/GN 17 and B&TB 1 occur.

This would mean the Wasp and Vision appear in Wonder Man #1 between A@13 
and A 246 and Cap appears there between M/GN 17 and CA 293.

Russ, if you concur, I'll change my Avengers Calendar.

Paul

			*	*	*

Maximum Security
Posted by TeaBee on August 08, 2002 at 04:02:38:

Is there another site where you could find the chronology of things other 
than characters? Things like events (Maximum Security, Infinity War) or 
groups (like the Serpent Society or the Sh'iar)? Is this something that 
this site may take on at some point?

Anyways, it was the Maximum Security event in particular that had me asking. 
I was wondering what the best order to read the crossovers would be...

			*	*	*

Re: Maximum Security
Posted by Philippe Boulier on August 08, 2002 at 14:52:52:
In Reply to: Maximum Security
posted by TeaBee on August 08, 2002 at 04:02:38:

According to Wizard's french edition - I don't know if it's translated 
from the US Wizard or if it was written by the french staff of the 
magazine - the Maximum Security cross-over should be read in this order :

(following the issue is noted the importance of that story to the cross-over, 
from level 1 (essential) to level 5 (loosely connected)

- Maximum Security : Dangerous planet (lev.1)
- Maximum Security #1 (lev.1)
- Avengers Infinity #1 (lev.5)
- Thor #30 (lev.3)
- Uncanny X-Men #387 (lev.1)
- Amazing Spider-Man #24 (lev.3)
- Iron Man #35 (lev.2)
- Maximum Security #2 (lev.1)
- Bishop #15 (lev.1)
- Captain America #36 (lev.1)
- Captain Marvel #12 (lev.2)
- Incredible Hulk #21 (lev.4)
- Peter Parker : Spider-Man #24 (lev.3)
- Thunderbolts #45 (lev.1)
- X-Men #107 (lev.1)
- Avengers #35 (lev.1)
- Gambit #23 (lev.3)
- Marvel Knights #6 (lev.4)
- X-Men Unlimited #29 (lev.1)
- Maximum Security #3 (lev.1)

This is a rough chronology, and could certainly be sharpened, but if you 
just want to read this cross-over, it might be useful to you, as it was 
to me when I did.

			*	*	*

Re: Maximum Security
Posted by Jeph! on August 18, 2002 at 02:18:19:
In Reply to: Re: Maximum Security
posted by Philippe Boulier on August 08, 2002 at 14:52:52:

You (or French Wizard) missed Black Panther v3 #25.  I'd put it, on your 
scale, at level 5 -- absolutely unneccesary but connected nonetheless.
	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Maximum Security
Posted by Philippe Boulier on August 18, 2002 at 16:27:15:
In Reply to: Re: Maximum Security
posted by Jeph! on August 18, 2002 at 02:18:19:

Indeed. This issue wasn't mentioned in Wizard's list. The reason being 
that it hadn't been translated by Marvel France at that time, they only 
published it a few weeks ago (the Maximum Security crossover was 
published here in December 2001).

Philippe

			*	*	*

Wild Child's transformation
Posted by Matt on August 09, 2002 at 12:29:54:

When did Wild Child transform into this Nosferatu-like creature? I always 
thought he looked more like a skinny Sabretooth.

			*	*	*

Re: Wild Child's transformation
Posted by Jeph! on August 09, 2002 at 18:13:45:
In Reply to: Wild Child's transformation
posted by Matt on August 09, 2002 at 12:29:54:

The last time we saw him prior to his Weapon-X incarnation in DP #57, was 
a late issue of X-Factor -- #142, if memory serves.  He broke into Val 
Cooper's house, and ran off howling into the night, further mutating as 
he went.

('Course, the creature he was mutating into looked nothing like his current 
state, but hey, it's Frank Tieri -- he thought the WC's last name was 
"Dilby" for a while.)

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Wild Child's transformation
Posted by French Thom on February 19, 2003 at 08:48:26:
In Reply to: Re: Wild Child's transformation
posted by Jeph! on August 09, 2002 at 18:13:45:

Did Howard Mackie ever explained in X-Factor how Wildchild turned from the 
gorgeous man he was in the last issues of Alpha Flight vol. I to the freak 
he wrote about?

Wildchild was gorgeous before becoming Wildchild, it's the Weapon X program 
who first turned him into a monster, as explained in the Simon Furman/Pat 
Broderick run on AF.

Besides, he did not have an adventure with Aurora.

French Thom

			*	*	*

Death-Stalker
Posted by captamr on August 09, 2002 at 23:27:35:

Death-Stalker's final appearence and Frank Miller's debut as Daredevil's 
artist is DD 158. So... the correct listing should be:

DD 156
DD 157
DD 158** (to borrow Arthur Stein's notation)

Charlie 

			*	*	*

Re: Death-Stalker
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 10, 2002 at 08:13:20:
In Reply to: Death-Stalker
posted by captamr on August 09, 2002 at 23:27:35:

Confirming Captamr's sighting. plus a flasback and another sighting...

complete Death-Stalker chronology:

DEATH-STALKER

DD 39
DD 40-BTS
DD 41
DD 113
DD 114
DD 115
**DD158-FB Pg 14, pn 1  (in which it is revealed he visited the morgue 
and viewed the bodies of the original Unholy Three. This is the only 
confirmation that the original Bird-man, Ape-man and Cat-man perished 
in the bomb blast in IM 115.)
DD 128
GR2 18
GR2 19
DD 138
**GR2 20  (conclusion of GR2 18,GR2 19,DD 138 story arc)
DD 148
DD 152
DRSTR2 29
DD 155
DD 156
DD 157
**DD 158

			*	*	*

Re: Death-Stalker
Posted by captamr on August 11, 2002 at 20:45:45:
In Reply to: Re: Death-Stalker
posted by Arthur Stein on August 10, 2002 at 08:13:20:

Thanks, Arthur, I completely missed the FB even afeter reading the issue. 
Oh, the actual explosion that killed the Ani-Men was in IM 116. Keep up the 
great work!

Charlie

			*	*	*

Re: Death-Stalker
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 11, 2002 at 22:27:15:
In Reply to: Re: Death-Stalker
posted by captamr on August 11, 2002 at 20:45:45:

So it was! Well, that's what teamwork is all about... together we just 
may get it all right!

			*	*	*

Question about Phoenix
Posted by Dimadick on August 10, 2002 at 17:32:24:

  I just finished reading New X-Men 128.And I am ruther confused. Jean and 
Phoenix speak as if having distinct personalities. Phoenix even explaning 
that Jean is the house where she lives. But Xavier mentions the Dark 
Phoenix as being a previous "Rogue Phoenix Manifestation". Cyclops later 
mentions Jean running around in a corset and dying on the moon probably 
referring to Black Queen and the Dark Phoenix.

  Could anyone explain to me since when was the dual personalitie Jean/Phoenix 
theme introduced? The Phoenix personalitie represents the clone who was the 
Black Queen and the Dark Phoenix or not?

  And a question about the Phoenix force and its bearers. Were its "houses" 
up till now the following persons?:

I Jean Grey II/Black Queen/Dark Phoenix, the first clone.

II Madelyne Pryor/Goblin Queen, the second clone.

III Rachel Summers,the daughter.

IV  Jean Grey Summers/Marver Girl, the original.

  If that is so could anybody explain to me the order of the "housings" and 
if the Phoenix carries any memories of them?

  Sorry for the rather stupid questions but I am quite confused/

			*	*	*

Re: Question about Phoenix
Posted by Will on August 11, 2002 at 05:51:09:
In Reply to: Question about Phoenix
posted by Dimadick on August 10, 2002 at 17:32:24:

Hey Dim,

  The whole Phoenix vs. Jean Grey theme exploded in the "Dark Phoenix Saga", 
which ran from Uncanny X-Men #129-137.  It's a damn good story and it's 
reprinted in Essential X-Men #2 and also in The Dark Phoenix Saga TPB.

   The Phoenix force is a cosmic entity which choses to inhabit people for 
some reason.  The order of the hosts you put seems right to me, but I might 
be wrong.  Someone else will have to let us in on the correct order....

			*	*	*

IZZY COHEN...COMANCHE...CONTROLLER
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 11, 2002 at 08:26:01:

new entries marked **

COHEN, "IZZY"

(I know the war issues arent done yet, but these appearances were current 
marvel time appearances so I thought Id throw them in)

SGTF 13
CA 383/2
SGTF 13
**CA 273 (Howlers reunion)
**H 434 (toasting Furys death)

COMANCHE

(although primarily to insert PM 49 into the chronology, several FB 
sequences are included)
LCHFH 1
** LCHFH 14  Pg 3  Life in Prison after Cages escape; Pg 5 Rackham fired, 
Comanche and Shades escape
LCHFH 14
LCHFH 15 pg 2/3 Comanche and Shades on rooftop, pre-dawn
**LCHFH 16-FB  pg 3/5 Comanche and Shades are seen by Flea; the scene is 
almost synchronous with the scene in LCHFH 15 pg 2/3, but Fleas narrative 
informs us that he sees the front of their uniforms so this scene must 
extend in time past the scene in LCHFH 15, to a point when Comanche and 
Shades have turned from the rooftop edge.
LCHFH 15 pg 2/4  pg 3/5 Comanche and Shades outside Friedmans Liquor 
and breaking in
**LCHFH 16 pg  6/1 Flea accosts Comanche and Shades inside Friedmans 
Liquor
LCHFH 15 (pg 17)
**PM 49-FB Pg 7
PM 48
**PM 49

All flashback sequences as well as PM 49 apply to SHADES as well as 
Comanche. 

CONTROLLER/BASIL SANDHURST/XANDER BASEL

IM 12
IM 13
**IM 28
CM 28
CM 29
CM 30
**IM 88   unseen, but we are privy to his thoughts pgs 15/5 and 30/1
IM 89

			*	*	*

3d man
Posted by agoodcdnkid on August 11, 2002 at 15:31:12:

has anyone ever herd of 3d man. i'm looking for some info on this comic.

			*	*	*

Re: 3d man
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 11, 2002 at 22:24:40:
In Reply to: 3d man
posted by agoodcdnkid on August 11, 2002 at 15:31:12:

3-D Man never had a comic of his own but he did star in three issues of 
Marvel Premiere back in the 70's: Issues 35, 36 and 37. 

To see a list of ALL of his appearences, go to the home page for this site 
and click on the # sign at the beginning of the alphabet list.

			*	*	*

The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
Posted by SKleefeld on August 12, 2002 at 14:27:11:

Uncanny X-Men #391
Thunderbolts #48
Thunderbolts #49
Captain America v4 #1 (flashback) -- September 11
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36 -- September 11. Note that Kingpin is not blinded 
yet and Hawkeye is not imprisoned. Coupled with the "introduction" we're led 
to believe this is SEVERELY out of publication order. While there was some 
debate initially to it's canonicity, the flashbacks in CAv4 #1 suggest that 
this is in continuity. 
Avengers v3 #38 ~ X-Men #111 -- Quicksilver leaves Genosha. Cap interviewed 
about Magneto 
Avengers v3 #39
Avengers v3 #40
Thunderbolts #50
Fantastic Four v3 #40
Fantastic Four v3 #41
Fantastic Four v3 #42
Fantastic Four v3 #43
Fantastic Four v3 #44
Fantastic Four v3 #45 Namorita appears. She becomes one of the minor hinges 
throughout our listing.
Iron Man v3 #40
Iron Man v3 #41 -- Debut of IM's retro armor. IM's armor is a major hinge 
throughout the list. 
Defenders v2 #1 -- Iron Man seen on a TV screen wearing his retro armor.
Defenders v2 #2 -- Namorita appears fighting Attuma. While it is implied 
that Attuma kicks her butt during this issue, the chronology simply can't 
hold up with all of her appearances in FFv3. Jeph and I have taken with the 
assumption that she actually escapes Attuma here, only to be captured shortly 
before Defenders #5.
Defenders v2 #3
Defenders v2 #4
Thunderbolts #51
Citizen V and the V-Battalion #1
Citizen V and the V-Battalion #2
Citizen V and the V-Battalion #3
Thunderbolts #52
Thunderbolts: Life Sentences
Fantastic Four Annual 2001 -- Namorita appears.
Avengers v3 #41 -- IM appears in retro armor. It's expressly mentioned that 
Stark is in hiding. While this would imply it occurs after the events of 
IMv3 #42, Stark is still wearing his goate here. He picks up the Hogan Potts 
identity later. Kang also blows up the UN building.
Avengers v3 #42 -- IM in retro armor. Attuma now appears to rule Atlantis, 
as suggested by the earlier Defenders stories.
Fantastic Four v3 #46 -- Here, we have a reference to the UN having just 
blown up. Namorita makes an appearance.
Fantastic Four v3 #47
Fantastic Four v3 #48
Fantastic Four v3 #49 -- The Inivisible Woman becomes pregnant. Galactus 
returns to the Marvel continuum. Namorita makes another appearance.
Avengers v3 #43 -- This is said to expressly lead into A@ 2001.
Avengers Annual 2001 -- Hank Pym is cured of his multiple-personalities.
Avengers v3 #44 -- Specifically occurs right after A@ 2001. Pym appears in 
his Goliath uniform. The Goliath/Yellowjacket dilemma was the biggest problem 
for Jeph and I. This is a major hinge for our chronology.
Avengers: Celestial Quest #1
Avengers: Celestial Quest #2 -- Thor, Firebird, Silverclaw, Vision, and 
Scarlet Witch leave the Avengers Mansion for space and remain in space until 
sometime after A:CQ #8.
Avengers: Celestial Quest #3
Avengers: Celestial Quest #4
Avengers: Celestial Quest #5
Avengers: Celestial Quest #6
Avengers: Celestial Quest #7
Avengers: Celestial Quest #8
Iron Man v3 #42 -- Tony Stark is puttering around with armor modifications.
Iron Man v3 #43 -- Stark meets Goliath in an essentially empty (except for 
Jarvis) Avengers Mansion. We've got this after/during A:CQ to account for the 
empty Mansion.
Infinity Abyss #1 -- Goliath appears.
Infinity Abyss #2 -- The Defenders are clearly cursed here, putting in the 
midst of their series.
Infinity Abyss #3 -- Galactus appears, confirming it is after FFv3 #49.
Infinity Abyss #4
Infinity Abyss #5
Infinity Abyss #6
Iron Man v3 #44 -- Here we have the introduction of Stark's transitional 
armor. It actually is being slightly modified throughout IM's various 
appearances until Grell and Ryan introduce a new version in IMv3 #50.
Iron Man v3 #45
Iron Man Annual 2001
Iron Man v3 #46 pp. 1-15 -- Goliath cameos here. Now IMv3 #46-48 appear to 
run seamlessly, but the dialogue later in the story clearly indicates it is 
a sequel to the Ultron Imperative. The problem there is that Hank Pym appears 
in his Yellowjacket uniform throughout that story, so we are forced to break 
up this sequence in the only possible gap.
Fantastic Four v3 #50 -- Namorita appears.
Defenders v2 #5 -- Namorita is shown a captive of Attuma at this point. With 
her numerous FFv3 appearances, we have to place her capture behind-the-scenes 
shortly after FFv3 #50.
Defenders v2 #6 -- Bruce Banner appears, still afflicted with ALS.
Defenders v2 #7
Avengers: the Ultron Imperative -- OK, this is the first appearance of Hank 
Pym as Yellowjacket. On the surface, dialogue would imply that his first 
appearance as YJ is Av3 #45, but I'll touch on that later. Iron Man is also 
using his classic armor here, stating that he is doing some additional 
tinkering on his normal armor.
Captain America v3 #45 (flashback) -- Iron Man is still in his classic armor, 
so we're presuming he hasn't gotten back to the lab yet.
Captain America v3 #46 (flashback) -- Here, however, we see Iron Man back in 
his transitional armor, with some visual modifications. Probably just artistic 
license, but we can get it to work with the story anyway!
Captain America v3 #47 (flashback)
Captain America v3 #48 (flashback)
Captain America v3 #45 -- We learn that it only takes 5 days from the 
flashback in CAv3 #45 until now. Not much time for other stuff in between.
Captain America v3 #46
Captain America v3 #47 -- Namor remarks that he hasn't reclaimed Atlantis 
yet.
Captain America v3 #48
Incredible Hulk v3 #30 -- Bruce Banner is all-but-dead from ALS.
Incredible Hulk v3 #31
Incredible Hulk v3 #32 -- Banner is cured of ALS by Ant-Man and Mr. Fantastic. 
Thing and She-Hulk cameo. With Jennifer's world-trotting from China to France 
to NYC, we tried to keep this appearance relatively close to her other NYC 
appearance in FFv3 #50.
Thunderbolts #53
Iron Man v3 #46 pp. 16+ -- We resume the sequel to Ultron Imperative, now 
that it can be a sequel.
Iron Man v3 #47
Iron Man v3 #48
Fantastic Four v3 #51
Fantastic Four v3 #52
Fantastic Four v3 #53
Fantastic Four v3 #54 -- The Invisible Woman gives birth. We've had to put 
just about all of Sue's appearance outside of this mark because she's shown
 clearly non-pregnant.
Black Panther #34 -- Appearance of the cursed Defenders.
Black Panther #35
Hulk #33
Black Panther #38 -- Note that BPv2 #36-37 are not in continuity.
Black Panther #39
Black Panther #40 -- Iron First regains his powers, justifying Graviton's 
taking him out later in Thunderbolts.
Defenders v2 #8
Defenders v2 #9
Defenders v2 #10 -- A non-pregnant Invisible Woman makes an appearance.
Defenders v2 #11 -- Namor reclaims Atlantis.
New X-Men #114
New X-Men #115
New X-Men #116
Iron Man v3 #49
Thunderbolts #54
Thunderbolts #55
Thunderbolts #56 -- Graviton starts lifting cities into the sky.
Thunderbolts #57 -- Iron Man is still in his transitional armor. We have 
appearances by a non-pregnant Invisible Woman (after FFv3 #54), Namorita 
(after Dv2 #11), Iron Fist (after BPv2 #40) and Yellowjacket (after A:UI).
Thunderbolts #58
Thunderbolts #59
Captain America v3 #49
Peter Parker #37 -- It's snowing absurdly hard...
Iron Man v3 #50 (flashback) -- ... which is referenced here as well. It's 
also shown to be Christmas Eve.
Captain America v3 #50 -- The stories appear in order. The first occurs on 
XMas Eve. After Cap's "death," we see a non-pregnant Invisible Woman and 
Namor as sovereign of Atlantis. Like most funerals, we're presuming this 
occurs within a week after his "death."
Iron Man v3 #50 -- Introduction of the Grell-Ryan amror. This occurs about 
one week after Christmas, according to the captions.
Avengers v3 #45 -- This issue was a sticking point for a long time. The 
dialogue strongly suggests this is the first time Wanda has seen Hank as 
Yellowjacket. Clearly, though, we have several Yellowjacket appearances 
before now, which were all necessary for a variety of other reasons. Allow 
me to explain by Yellowjacket's supposed debut here by re-presenting some 
of the original dialogue with my translations...

   YJ: "So, he's the warlord of an entire monstrous race -- what of 
   it? You're deputy leader of the Avengers -- and don't you forget 
   it!" (Translation: "You go, girl!")

   SW: "Hank! So... you, ah, decided to become Yellowjacket again?" 
   (Translation: "Your sudden appearance from behind startled me. In 
   an effort to broach a subject that has concerned me since our 
   adventure with Ultron, I would now like to inquire about your 
   change in costume.")

   YJ: "Um... yeah. It might seem like an odd choice, after all my 
   troubles, by I've spent too long hiding from my problems, or 
   from who I am. It's as Yellowjacket that I had my worst 
   problems -- so it's as Yellowjacket I'll face them, and find 
   out if I'm truly cured. I, eh, hope that doesn't worry you..." 
   (Translation: "I'm somewhat uncomfortable discussing this topic, 
   but our long friendship warrants an answer: I have a multiple-
   personality disorder and the stress of our current situation has 
   brought out the most care-free of my personalities. While our 
   current writer has made an effort to resolve my condition, 
   future writers will undoubtably rehash my problems and make 
   any resolutions here moot. I hope that doesn't worry you...")

   SW: "Not a bit, Hank. You're one of the all-time best, no matter 
   what costume you wear -- and you're going to be just fine, I know 
   it. (Translation: "If I patronize you now, it's less likely that 
   you'll try to hurt me as you did your wife. I'm honestly scared 
   shitless, but there's nothing I can to do change the situation. 
   I just hope Geoff Johns doesn't screw me over too much.")

   YJ: "Thanks, Wanda. Just... thanks." (Translation: "As a male, 
   I'm oblivious to your implied messages, and will take your words 
   at face value. When I do break down again, I will spare your life 
   for the superficial kindness you have shown me.")

We also have Cap severely bandaged up throughout the issue. While the dialogue 
suggests this was from his being turned into a zombie, Jeph and I think it 
makes more sense if he got the injuries from a real explosion (CAv3 #50), 
rather than radiation (Av3 #44). It's also worth noting that the Master sends 
up his ring walls at the end of this issue, which "forces" the Kang War almost 
in its entirety after Graviton's attack from Thunderbolts.

Avengers v3 #46
Avengers v3 #47
Avengers v3 #48
Avengers v3 #49 --Washington DC is nuked by Kang.
Avengers v3 #50
Avengers v3 #51
Avengers v3 #52
Avengers v3 #53
Avengers v3 #54 -- Thor disappears at end of issue. 
Peter Parker #38 -- Spidey vs mimes. We've got three weeks to fill, and 
something ought to be put here, but most everything else has to go around it. 
Besides, I want to highlight this issue because it's a REALLY funny story. So 
go buy a copy if you haven't already!
Avengers v3 #55 -- Three weeks after Av3 #54. Thor returns. Rebuilding has 
been taking place; presumably, more vitally important command structures (like 
the White House) were worked on first.
X-Treme X-Men #10
X-Treme X-Men #11 -- Given that we have the introduction of the Grell-Ryan 
armor so close before the Kang War proper, Khan's invasion almost has to occur 
afterwards. But since Thor makes an appearance here, we have to push it back 
until after his return in Av3 #55. Note also that the White House has been 
restored by this point.
X-Treme X-Men #12
X-Treme X-Men #13
X-Treme X-Men #14
X-Treme X-Men #15
X-Treme X-Men #16
Avengers v3 #56 (flashback) -- This story occurs before Thor has left to do 
the monarch bit in Asgard. Note that Iron Man's appearances in the flashback 
are not necessarily after his unmasking.
Defenders v2 #12 -- The Defenders becomes The Order. We had originally put 
this much earlier before the Kang War, but writer Kurt Busiek definitively 
said The Order comes after Av3 #55, which is why Thor does not appear in the 
series.
The Order #1
The Order #2
The Order #3
The Order #4
The Order #5
The Order #6 -- The Defenders curse is lifted.
Black Panther v3 #41 -- Iron Man appears in his Grell-Ryan armor, pushing 
this after the Kang War proper. We also saw that T'Challa was apparently on 
friendly terms with Iron Man during The Order, suggesting this storyline 
occurs after that one.
Black Panther v3 #42
Black Panther v3 #43
Black Panther v3 #44
Black Panther v3 #45 --  Black Panther and Iron Man accidentally put a large 
hole in the White House. Placing that incident here would help justify Wasp's 
pointing out the reconstruction in the as-yet-unreleased Av3 #57.
Black Panther v3 #46
Black Panther v3 #47
Deadline #1 -- Given how little news is mentioned about world events, Jeph 
and I decided this series must occur some time after the Kang War. We also 
see reference to people questioning who's wearing the Captain America mask, 
suggesting it's before his relaunched series.
Peter Parker #39
Peter Parker #40
Deadline #2 ~ Peter Parker #41 -- Spider-Man fights Dr. Octopus on the 
rooftops. The brief cameo in Deadline appears to coincide fairly well with 
the battle in Peter Parker, so most of his series is after the Kang War as 
well.
Deadline #3
Deadline #4
Daredevil v2 #26 -- This story is all over the map chronologically, so I'm 
only placing the main "now" storyline in context of this list. But since we 
see that Kingpin is blinded (or dead) throughout the flashbacks that occur 
up to 3 months ago, we have to put a lot of time between the September 11 
stories and these. Given that we're clearly after the New Year's following 
September 11 (as noted by the Christmas stories earlier), this should give 
enough time for everything.
Daredevil v2 #27
Elektra #6 --  Elektra is in NYC. This story leads directly into DDv2 #28.
Daredevil v2 #28
Daredevil v2 #29
Daredevil v2 #30
Daredevil v2 #31
Elektra #7
Elektra #8
Elektra #9
Daredevil v2 #32 -- Matt Murdock is revealed to be Daredevil. Since this made 
such widespread news within the Marvel Universe, this was placed before Cap 
and Iron Man's respective unmaskings.
Daredevil v2 #33
Daredevil v2 #34 -- Elektra is shown in London. This would coincide with the 
world travelling that is later shown in Elektra #12.
Daredevil v2 #35
Peter Parker #42
Peter Parker #43
Peter Parker #44
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #32 -- The "Spidey vs Morlun" storyline only occurs 
over the course of only a day or two. It ends with Peter getting severely 
beaten, which is useful in determining some of his other appearances.
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #33
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #34
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #35
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #37
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #38
Peter Parker #45 -- Here, we have a bandaged Peter Parker. The story implies 
this occurs shortly after #44, but we have to place the Spidey/Morlun fight 
between the issues to account for the bandages.
Peter Parker #46
Fantastic Four v3 #55
Fantastic Four v3 #56 -- Ben, perhaps in evaluating the recent Kang War 
events, reveals he is Jewish.
Thing: Freakshow #1 -- Ben loses some small chunks of his hide in a battle 
with the Wrecker.
Thing: Freakshow #2
ron Man v3 #51
Fantastic Four v3 #57
Fantastic Four v3 #58
Fantastic Four v3 #59 -- Reed uses a piece of Ben's hide from Freakshow to 
analyze recent changes in his skin.
Captain America v4 #1
Captain America v4 #2
Captain America v4 #3 -- Cap unmasks on national television.
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #39
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #40
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #41
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #42 -- Dr. Strange cameos. Supposedly, this will lead 
into an upcoming Dr. Strange story: "An Appointment With Death."
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #43
Hulk v2 #34 -- Bruce Banner shaves his head. We see this transfers to the 
Hulk (despite that the opposite occurs with his cousin), so it must occur 
after The Order. The manhunt for him could justifiably be in part for being 
a pain in the butt in that series, as well as the 'murder' of Ricky mentioned 
in this story.
Hulk v2 #35
Hulk v2 #36
Hulk v2 #37
Hulk v2 #38
Hulk v2 #39
Hulk v2 #40
Hulk v2 #41
Hulk v2 #42
Hulk v2 #43
Iron Man v3 #51
Iron Man v3 #52
Iron Man v3 #53
Iron Man v3 #54
Iron Man v3 #55 -- Tony Stark unmasks, probably following Cap's lead.
Iron Man v3 #56
Avengers v3 #56 -- Stark has only recently revealed his identity, and it's 
not quite common knowledge yet, thus putting this shortly after IMv3 #55. We 
also know from the Beast's dialogue that this occurs approximately one month 
after the flashback.
Elektra #10
Elektra #11
Elektra #12
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #43 -- Since Doc Ock is out of prison here, we need to 
put as much space as we reasonably can after his capture in PP #41.

Sean

			*	*	*

Re: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
Posted by wonderfly on August 12, 2002 at 15:35:20:
In Reply to: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
posted by SKleefeld on August 12, 2002 at 14:27:11:

Why not just resolve some of the stickier issues by emailing the people at 
Marvel.  Heck, submit this list to Kurt Busiek, (or some such figure), and 
say, "Hey, have we figured this out correctly"

My concerns:  Why can't we just say Cap #50 was an non canon story. That 
would solve that dilemma right there? Why not email Marvel and ask them?

Same with Amazing Spidey #36-ask Marvel. Your references to Kingpin and 
Hawkeye are all fine and dandy, but I still don't believe Doc. Doom would 
come to New York just to shed a tear for the WTC.

I really liked how you handled Yellowjacket and Wanda's conversation...if 
you get through the wisecracks you made, that then makes sense.

			*	*	*

Re: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
Posted by SKleefeld on August 12, 2002 at 16:21:57:<p>
In Reply to: Re: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
posted by wonderfly on August 12, 2002 at 15:35:20:

> Why not just resolve some of the stickier issues by emailing the people at 
Marvel.  Heck, submit this list to Kurt Busiek, (or some such figure), and 
say, "Hey, have we figured this out correctly"

I did. The most I could get out of them was Busiek's note about The Order 
occurring after Avengers #55. 

Not that I expected even that much out of them, honestly. Most of them aren't 
terribly concerned with what exactly occurs when (as evidenced by the 
Goliath/YJ issue) so putting together a list like this is far above and 
beyond what they'd care to do.

> My concerns:  Why can't we just say Cap #50 was an non canon story. That 
would solve that dilemma right there? Why not email Marvel and ask them?

Cap #50 was the LEAST of our problems. All we have to say is that his 
resurrection occurs behind-the-scenes. There's nothing wrong with that, in 
my mind, and happens quite a lot. 

Besides, Cap's "died" almost as often as Wonder Man already! What's one 
more?  :)

> Same with Amazing Spidey #36-ask Marvel. Your references to Kingpin and 
Hawkeye are all fine and dandy, but I still don't believe Doc. Doom would 
come to New York just to shed a tear for the WTC.

Well, if you don't want to count it, then don't. Jeph and I have found a 
place for it, that fits surprisingly well, but we're not forcing you to 
believe it's the Gospel According to Stan or anything. The same holds for 
Cap #50 for that matter.

> I really liked how you handled Yellowjacket and Wanda's conversation...if 
you get through the wisecracks you made, that then makes sense.

That was copied from a discussion Jeph and I had. I was getting REALLY 
frustrated with all the problems we were running into and needed to let off 
some steam.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Sean, you bad boy.
Posted by Jeph! on August 12, 2002 at 21:31:21:
In Reply to: Re: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
posted by SKleefeld on August 12, 2002 at 16:21:57:

Sean!  Great job!

As you said, I've been really busy moving and unpacking and junk this week, 
and haven't had time to work on the thing -- but you finished it off, and 
annotated it, admirably.  Good show!

One point I must make, since I originally jumped into this damn thing to 
insert the X-books (which I *will* do):  you messed up on the placement of 
"New X-men" #114-116.

Cap v3 #50 has a pre-cat-mutation Beast at his funeral.  All post-cat 
appearances of Beast, beginning with X #114, have to go AFTER Cap #50.

Other than that ... well, as soon as I can sit down with my stuff again, 
I'll cross-check it with my stuff -- but it looks flawless!  Good catch with 
Tony's goatee and the Hogan Potts thing.

I'll be in touch.  ;)

And, hey, everyone on the web board?  Give Sean a hand -- he knocked himself 
out on this thing.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
Posted by wonderfly on August 13, 2002 at 11:11:43:
In Reply to: Re: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
posted by SKleefeld on August 12, 2002 at 16:21:57:

> > Why not just resolve some of the stickier issues by emailing the people 
at Marvel.  Heck, submit this list to Kurt Busiek, (or some such figure), and 
say, "Hey, have we figured this out correctly"

> I did. The most I could get out of them was Busiek's note about The Order 
occurring after Avengers #55. 

> Not that I expected even that much out of them, honestly. Most of them 
aren't terribly concerned with what exactly occurs when (as evidenced by the 
Goliath/YJ issue) so putting together a list like this is far above and 
beyond what they'd care to do.

> > My concerns:  Why can't we just say Cap #50 was an non canon story. That 
would solve that dilemma right there? Why not email Marvel and ask them?

> Cap #50 was the LEAST of our problems. All we have to say is that his 
resurrection occurs behind-the-scenes. There's nothing wrong with that, in 
my mind, and happens quite a lot. 

> Besides, Cap's "died" almost as often as Wonder Man already! What's one 
more?  :)

> > Same with Amazing Spidey #36-ask Marvel. Your references to Kingpin and 
Hawkeye are all fine and dandy, but I still don't believe Doc. Doom would 
come to New York just to shed a tear for the WTC.

> Well, if you don't want to count it, then don't. Jeph and I have found a 
place for it, that fits surprisingly well, but we're not forcing you to 
believe it's the Gospel According to Stan or anything. The same holds for 
Cap #50 for that matter.

Well, my point is that yes, what you've worked out does indeed work.  But 
seeing Dr. Doom crying kinda ruins the story somewhat, and makes me wonder 
whether or not this is canon. But the explanation you've present is fine.

As for Cap #50...even while I was reading that, I had the feeling throughout 
the entire thing that this was some big dream event...but nobody woke up at 
the end to say "It was all a dream". And that's how they ended the series?  
I'm still left dazed and confused by that one, but your explanation works for 
all intents and purposes.

> > I really liked how you handled Yellowjacket and Wanda's conversation...if 
you get through the wisecracks you made, that then makes sense.

> That was copied from a discussion Jeph and I had. I was getting REALLY 
frustrated with all the problems we were running into and needed to let off 
some steam.

The Yellowjacket/Wanda conversation as you interpreted it left me laughing on 
the floor, that's how funny it was. Thanks for the laugh.

I guess emailing The Fine Folks at Marvel with our dilemmma's wouldn't solve 
anything...their business is to tell stories...the people at this website 
have made it their business to sort through the mess left behind, (even if 
it's a fun mess). 

			*	*	*

Re: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
Posted by Dimadick on August 13, 2002 at 13:49:16:
In Reply to: Re: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
posted by wonderfly on August 13, 2002 at 11:11:43:

> Well, my point is that yes, what you've worked out does indeed work.  But 
seeing Dr. Doom crying kinda ruins the story somewhat, and makes me wonder 
whether or not this is canon. But the explanation you've present is fine.

  Why do so many people dislike Doom's tears? For me that was the best moment 
in the entire issue. He has always been my favorite marvel character and he 
never seemed to enjoy pointless chaos and destruction. He usualy tries to 
conquer and not to destroy. There is a difference. The whole point of seing 
him cry in the face of such a destruction was prooving his humanity. What is 
wrong with that?

  If it is one part of the issue I couldn't stomach in this issue was Captain 
America's blind stare. He shares the space with Red Skull as my least 
favorite characters but they are both World War II survivors and should be 
more used to that kind of situations.

			*	*	*

Re: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
Posted by wonderfly on August 14, 2002 at 13:02:56:
In Reply to: Re: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
posted by Dimadick on August 13, 2002 at 13:49:16:

Okay, first, my personal reasons why I don't like Doom crying:  He's a 
conquerer of worlds.  As long as he takes over the world, he doesn't care 
who gets killed.  I could see Magneto crying, (he's been through the 
Holocaust, and has seen war). I can see the Kingpin crying, (the terrorists 
tore up his beloved New York city, which he thinks he owns). But Doom? That's 
stretching it.

Now to make this relevant to this message board: what's Doom doing in New 
York anyway?  He's busy conquering Doomworld, aka Counter Earth.  We see 
evidence of this in Thunderbolts 51 and 52, and that world looks much worse 
off than New York.  Or at the very least, he's over in Latveria, so why hop 
a plane to New York just to see the damage?   

So that also makes me question the canonness of that issue. But I'm sure 
someone could come up with a feasible explanation.

			*	*	*

Re: Doom's tears
Posted by Jeph! on August 14, 2002 at 18:21:36:
In Reply to: Re: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
posted by wonderfly on August 14, 2002 at 13:02:56:

> Now to make this relevant to this message board: what's Doom doing in New 
York anyway?  He's busy conquering Doomworld, aka Counter Earth ... Or at 
the very least, he's over in Latveria, so why hop a plane to New York just 
to see the damage? ... But I'm sure someone could come up with a feasible 
explanation.

Feasible explanation:  he was already in New York.  Perhaps at the UN giving 
a speech.  (He's on our earth in TB #51-52, not Counter-Earth.)  As to why 
he cares?  Well, it's more than likely that Latverian nationals died in the 
tragedy.

Or, for those of you who swear Doom can't cry, here's your feasible 
explanation:  he was sweating.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 15, 2002 at 03:59:58:
In Reply to: Re: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
posted by wonderfly on August 14, 2002 at 13:02:56:

> Now to make this relevant to this message board: what's Doom doing in New 
York anyway?  He's busy conquering Doomworld, aka Counter Earth.  

Must be a Doombot.

You know, now I think about this, it actually would be kind of in character 
for Doom to send a Doombot to New York to be mournful on his behalf.  He's 
a busy man...

			*	*	*

Re: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
Posted by Tom Brevoort on August 13, 2002 at 08:29:35:
In Reply to: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
posted by SKleefeld on August 12, 2002 at 14:27:11:

I haven't analyzed the entirety of this chronology, but a couple of things 
I can point out:

AVENGERS: CELESTIAL QUEST #1-8 occur between AVENGERS #40 & #41.

Likewise, INFINITY ABYSS #1-6 occur between AVENGERS #40 & #41, and after 
CELESTIAL QUEST.

I wouldn't worry too much about trying to make AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #36 fit 
in smoothly, as it's more of an allegorical story rather than a literal 
transliteration of events.

Also, most of IRON MAN #50 occurs after the events of KANG DYNASTY. While 
the readers first see Tony don the new armor in IM #50, he actually first 
wears it in the closing chapters of the Kang War.

Tom Brevoort

			*	*	*

Re: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
Posted by Don Campbell on August 13, 2002 at 09:36:41:
In Reply to: Re: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
posted by Tom Brevoort on August 13, 2002 at 08:29:35:

I've taken some of Tom Breevort's comments and plugged them into Sean's 
timeline while leaving Sean's original placement for comparison.

> Avengers v3 #40.

"between AVENGERS #40 & #41" - AVENGERS: CELESTIAL QUEST #1-8, followed by 
INFINITY ABYSS #1-6.

> Fantastic Four v3 #40-44.
> Fantastic Four v3 #45 -- Namorita appears.
> Fantastic Four Annual 2001 -- Namorita appears.
> Avengers v3 #41 & 42 -- Kang blows up the UN building.
> Fantastic Four v3 #46 -- Here, we have a reference to the UN having just 
blown up.
> Fantastic Four v3 #47-49 -- Galactus returns to the Marvel continuum.
> Avengers v3 #43 -- This is said to expressly lead into A@ 2001.
> Avengers Annual 2001 -- Hank Pym is cured of his multiple-personalities.
> Avengers v3 #44 -- Specifically occurs right after A@ 2001.

> Avengers: Celestial Quest #1-8.
> Infinity Abyss #1 -- Goliath appears.
> Infinity Abyss #2 -- The Defenders are clearly cursed here, putting in 
the midst of their series.
> Infinity Abyss #3 -- Galactus appears, confirming it is after FFv3 #49.
> Infinity Abyss #4-6

I believe that the reason Sean placed INFINITY ABYSS and AVENGERS: CELESTIAL 
QUEST where he did was to accomodate the Galactus appearance in INFINITY 
ABYSS #3. This is a good idea...except that it was NOT Galactus who appeared 
in that issue, it was the Galactus-like Thanos doppelganger known as the 
Omega (as revealed in IA #4). Therefore, Tom's corrections are acceptable...
right?

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Hurm....
Posted by SKleefeld on August 13, 2002 at 12:22:29:
In Reply to: Re: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
posted by Tom Brevoort on August 13, 2002 at 08:29:35:

> I haven't analyzed the entirety of this chronology, but a couple of things 
I can point out:

Thanks for chiming in, Tom! I know you're busy and your input is always 
appreciated.

> AVENGERS: CELESTIAL QUEST #1-8 occur between AVENGERS #40 & #41.

> Likewise, INFINITY ABYSS #1-6 occur between AVENGERS #40 & #41, and after 
CELESTIAL QUEST.

I'll have to double check, but doesn't Jack of Hearts NOT show up until Av3 
#43 or 44? If that's not a real issue, I don't see anything else that might 
prevent it from moving. (Although I did like the empty Mansion bit for IMv3 
#43.)

> I wouldn't worry too much about trying to make AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #36 fit 
in smoothly, as it's more of an allegorical story rather than a literal 
transliteration of events.

I was willing to write that off (Boy, that sounds cold. I was only writing 
that off in the it-doesn't-really-have-to-be-in-continuity sense.) but Jeph 
found a good place for it that does actually work.

Except for the Doom crying versus Dixon's Doom sans tear ducts thing.

> Also, most of IRON MAN #50 occurs after the events of KANG DYNASTY. While 
the readers first see Tony don the new armor in IM #50, he actually first 
wears it in the closing chapters of the Kang War.

Ouch! I'm not sure I like this. That would mean either A) everybody 
celebrates their happy, little, Rockwellian Christmas during the Kang 
War; B) the Kang War only takes a week just before Christmas; or C) Captain 
America dies a very anti-climatic death after he kicks so much butt in the 
Kang War.

I don't like A because that just doesn't make much sense. If you're home is 
a major battleground, you don't take time off to celebrate with cocktail 
parties.

I don't like B because we've got several instances of captions and dialogue 
that say the Kang War lasts AT LEAST three weeks (the amount of time Cap was 
unconscious in space), likely a month (the initial projections Kang made 
about his attack, coupled with various status reports).

And I don't like C because it's, well, anti-climatic. That bit where Cap just 
hauls off on Kang and Thor has the "He's all that is necessary" line is one 
of the best Cap moments I've read in a long time. To follow that with a rather 
trite and unnecessary death (despite it being immediately rectified) doesn't 
do the character justice. Isn't it much more powerful to have Cap die DURING 
the Kang War, only to fight his way back to the land of the living so he can 
continue to defend his ideals? That his senses of duty and obligation, freedom 
and liberty are so strong that they transcend death itself? I'm really not a 
big Cap fan, but that duel spoke volumes to me, and I'd hate to see it's 
impact lessened in any way.

I don't know. If you've got a resurrection story already in your back pocket 
that says otherwise, Tom, I can't argue. But I'm not keen on moving IMv3 #50 
after the Kang War because of some of the ancillary ramifications.

...

Hmm. My apologies if that comes across the wrong way; I know I certainly 
appreciate your input. I suppose it's just that you, Kurt, Kieron, et. al. 
did TOO good of a job ending the Kang War. 

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Hurm....
Posted by Tom Brevoort on August 13, 2002 at 12:49:41:
In Reply to: Hurm....
posted by SKleefeld on August 13, 2002 at 12:22:29:

> I'll have to double check, but doesn't Jack of Hearts NOT show up until 
Av3 #43 or 44?

Jack comes back from space with the infinity Avengers at the end of MAXIMUM 
SECURITY. He's at the Mansion in #36, and on-and-off thereafter.

> I don't know. If you've got a resurrection story already in your back pocket 
that says otherwise, Tom, I can't argue. But I'm not keen on moving IMv3 #50 
after the Kang War because of some of the ancillary ramifications.

I can't really speak to that, particularly when it concerns events that 
happened in titles I didn't edit. All I can tell you is what I had in mind 
as we were putting these stories together. But I do think that not wanting 
to place the IM #50 here because you didn't like the manner in which Cap 
died in context is strange reasoning--the goodness or badness of a given 
story shouldn't have any bearing on where a tale falls within the chronology. 
People get hit by busses every day--there's no reason why Cap couldn't have 
won a big victory, and then been killed by the super hero equivalent of being 
hit by a bus.

Tom Brevoort

			*	*	*

Re: The Kang War, New and Improved
Posted by SKleefeld on August 13, 2002 at 16:51:02:
In Reply to: The Kang War -- Easier to Read Version
posted by SKleefeld on August 12, 2002 at 14:27:11:

I will say that "creator intent" holds a lot of weight for this type of thing 
as far as I'm concerned, so here's a revised version of the Kang War 
chronology based on Tom Brevoort's notes. (Thanks again, Tom!)

Uncanny X-Men #391
Thunderbolts #48
Thunderbolts #49
Captain America v4 #1 (flashback) -- September 11
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36 -- September 11. Note that Kingpin is not blinded 
yet and Hawkeye is not imprisoned. Coupled with the "introduction" we're 
led to believe this is SEVERELY out of publication order. While there was 
some debate initially to it's canonicity, the flashbacks in CAv4 #1 suggest 
that this is in continuity. 
Avengers v3 #38 ~ X-Men #111 -- Quicksilver leaves Genosha. Cap interviewed 
about Magneto 
Avengers v3 #39
Avengers v3 #40 
Thunderbolts #50
Fantastic Four v3 #40
Fantastic Four v3 #41
Fantastic Four v3 #42
Fantastic Four v3 #43
Fantastic Four v3 #44
Fantastic Four v3 #45 Namorita appears. She becomes one of the minor hinges 
throughout our listing.
Avengers: Celestial Quest #1 -- From Tom Brevoort: "AVENGERS: CELESTIAL 
QUEST #1-8 occur between AVENGERS #40 & #41."
Avengers: Celestial Quest #2 -- Thor, Firebird, Silverclaw, Vision, and 
Scarlet Witch leave the Avengers Mansion for space and remain in space until 
sometime after A:CQ #8. Iron Man could well be simultaneously busy in his 
own series, accounting for his non-appearance here.
Avengers: Celestial Quest #3 
Avengers: Celestial Quest #4
Avengers: Celestial Quest #5 
Avengers: Celestial Quest #6
Avengers: Celestial Quest #7 
Avengers: Celestial Quest #8 
Iron Man v3 #40
Iron Man v3 #41 -- Debut of IM's retro armor. IM's armor is a major hinge 
throughout the list.
Defenders v2 #1 -- Iron Man seen on a TV screen wearing his retro armor.
Defenders v2 #2 -- Namorita appears fighting Attuma. While it is implied that 
Attuma kicks her butt during this issue, the chronology simply can't hold up 
with all of her appearances in FFv3. Jeph and I have taken with the assumption 
that she actually escapes Attuma here, only to be captured shortly before 
Defenders #5.
Defenders v2 #3
Defenders v2 #4
Infinity Abyss #1 -- Goliath appears. Another note from Tom: "Likewise, 
INFINITY ABYSS #1-6 occur between AVENGERS #40 & #41, and after CELESTIAL 
QUEST."
Infinity Abyss #2 -- The Defenders are clearly cursed here, putting in the 
midst of their series.
Infinity Abyss #3
Infinity Abyss #4
Infinity Abyss #5
Infinity Abyss #6
Thunderbolts #51
Citizen V and the V-Battalion #1
Citizen V and the V-Battalion #2
Citizen V and the V-Battalion #3
Thunderbolts #52
Thunderbolts: Life Sentences
Fantastic Four Annual 2001 -- Namorita appears.
Avengers v3 #41 -- IM appears in retro armor. It's expressly mentioned that 
Stark is in hiding. While this would imply it occurs after the events of IMv3 
#42, Stark is still wearing his goate here. He picks up the Hogan Potts 
identity later. Kang also blows up the UN building.
Avengers v3 #42 -- IM in retro armor. Attuma now appears to rule Atlantis, 
as suggested by the earlier Defenders stories.
Fantastic Four v3 #46 -- Here, we have a reference to the UN having just 
blown up. Namorita makes an appearance.
Fantastic Four v3 #47 
Fantastic Four v3 #48 
Fantastic Four v3 #49 -- The Inivisible Woman becomes pregnant. Galactus 
returns to the Marvel continuum. Namorita makes another appearance.
Avengers v3 #43 -- This is said to expressly lead into A@ 2001.
Avengers Annual 2001 -- Hank Pym is cured of his multiple-personalities.
Avengers v3 #44 -- Specifically occurs right after A@ 2001. Pym appears in 
his Goliath uniform. The Goliath/Yellowjacket dilemma was the biggest problem 
for Jeph and I. This is a major hinge for our chronology.
Iron Man v3 #42 -- Tony Stark is puttering around with armor modifications.
Iron Man v3 #43 -- Stark meets Goliath in an essentially empty (except for 
Jarvis) Avengers Mansion. We've got this after/during A:CQ to account for 
the empty Mansion.
Iron Man v3 #44 -- Here we have the introduction of Stark's transitional 
armor. It actually is being slightly modified throughout IM's various 
appearances until Grell and Ryan introduce a new version in IMv3 #50.
Iron Man v3 #45
Iron Man Annual 2001 
Iron Man v3 #46 pp. 1-15 -- Goliath cameos here. Now IMv3 #46-48 appear to 
run seamlessly, but the dialogue later in the story clearly indicates it is 
a sequel to the Ultron Imperative. The problem there is that Hank Pym appears 
in his Yellowjacket uniform throughout that story, so we are forced to break 
up this sequence in the only possible gap.
Fantastic Four v3 #50 -- Namorita appears.
Defenders v2 #5 -- Namorita is shown a captive of Attuma at this point. With 
her numerous FFv3 appearances, we have to place her capture behind-the-scenes 
shortly after FFv3 #50.
Defenders v2 #6 -- Bruce Banner appears, still afflicted with ALS.
Defenders v2 #7
Avengers: the Ultron Imperative -- OK, this is the first appearance of Hank 
Pym as Yellowjacket. On the surface, dialogue would imply that his first 
appearance as YJ is Av3 #45, but I'll touch on that later. Iron Man is also 
using his classic armor here, stating that he is doing some additional 
tinkering on his normal armor.
Captain America v3 #45 (flashback) -- Iron Man is still in his classic armor, 
so we're presuming he hasn't gotten back to the lab yet.
Captain America v3 #46 (flashback) -- Here, however, we see Iron Man back in 
his transitional armor, with some visual modifications. Probably just artistic 
license, but we can get it to work with the story anyway!
Captain America v3 #47 (flashback)
Captain America v3 #48 (flashback) 
Captain America v3 #45 -- We learn that it only takes 5 days from the flashback 
in CAv3 #45 until now. Not much time for other stuff in between.
Captain America v3 #46
Captain America v3 #47 -- Namor remarks that he hasn't reclaimed Atlantis yet.
Captain America v3 #48 
Incredible Hulk v3 #30 -- Bruce Banner is all-but-dead from ALS.
Incredible Hulk v3 #31
Incredible Hulk v3 #32 -- Banner is cured of ALS by Ant-Man and Mr. Fantastic. 
Thing and She-Hulk cameo. With Jennifer's world-trotting from China to France 
to NYC, we tried to keep this appearance relatively close to her other NYC 
appearance in FFv3 #50.
Thunderbolts #53
Iron Man v3 #46 pp. 16+ -- We resume the sequel to Ultron Imperative, now that 
it can be a sequel.
Iron Man v3 #47
Iron Man v3 #48 
Fantastic Four v3 #51 
Fantastic Four v3 #52 
Fantastic Four v3 #53  
Fantastic Four v3 #54 -- The Invisible Woman gives birth. We've had to put 
just about all of Sue's appearance outside of this mark because she's shown 
clearly non-pregnant.
Black Panther #34 -- Appearance of the cursed Defenders.
Black Panther #35
Hulk #33 
Black Panther #38 -- Note that BPv2 #36-37 are not in continuity.
Black Panther #39 
Black Panther #40 -- Iron First regains his powers, justifying Graviton's 
taking him out later in Thunderbolts.
Defenders v2 #8 
Defenders v2 #9 
Defenders v2 #10 -- A non-pregnant Invisible Woman makes an appearance.
Defenders v2 #11 -- Namor reclaims Atlantis.
Iron Man v3 #49
Thunderbolts #54 
Thunderbolts #55 
Thunderbolts #56 -- Graviton starts lifting cities into the sky.
Thunderbolts #57 -- Iron Man is still in his transitional armor. We have 
appearances by a non-pregnant Invisible Woman (after FFv3 #54), Namorita (after 
Dv2 #11), Iron Fist (after BPv2 #40) and Yellowjacket (after A:UI). 
Thunderbolts #58
Thunderbolts #59
Avengers v3 #45 -- This issue was a sticking point for a long time. The 
dialogue strongly suggests this is the first time Wanda has seen Hank as 
Yellowjacket. Clearly, though, we have several Yellowjacket appearances before 
now, which were all necessary for a variety of other reasons. Allow me to 
explain by Yellowjacket's supposed debut here by re-presenting some of the 
original dialogue with my translations...

   YJ: "So, he's the warlord of an entire monstrous race -- what of 
   it? You're deputy leader of the Avengers -- and don't you forget 
   it!" (Translation: "You go, girl!")

   SW: "Hank! So... you, ah, decided to become Yellowjacket again?" 
   (Translation: "Your sudden appearance from behind startled me. In 
   an effort to broach a subject that has concerned me since our 
   adventure with Ultron, I would now like to inquire about your 
   change in costume.")

   YJ: "Um... yeah. It might seem like an odd choice, after all my 
   troubles, by I've spent too long hiding from my problems, or from 
   who I am. It's as Yellowjacket that I had my worst problems -- so 
   it's as Yellowjacket I'll face them, and find out if I'm truly 
   cured. I, eh, hope that doesn't worry you..." (Translation: "I'm 
   somewhat uncomfortable discussing this topic, but our long 
   friendship warrants an answer: I have a multiple-personality 
   disorder and the stress of our current situation has brought out 
   the most care-free of my personalities. While our current writer 
   has made an effort to resolve my condition, future writers will 
   undoubtably rehash my problems and make any resolutions here moot. 
   I hope that doesn't worry you...")

   SW: "Not a bit, Hank. You're one of the all-time best, no matter 
   what costume you wear -- and you're going to be just fine, I know 
   it. (Translation: "If I patronize you now, it's less likely that 
   you'll try to hurt me as you did your wife. I'm honestly scared 
   shitless, but there's nothing I can to do change the situation. 
   I just hope Geoff Johns doesn't screw me over too much.")

   YJ: "Thanks, Wanda. Just... thanks." (Translation: "As a male, 
   I'm oblivious to your implied messages, and will take your words 
   at face value. When I do break down again, I will spare your life 
   for the superficial kindness you have shown me.")

We also have Cap severly bandaged up throughout the issue. While the dialogue 
suggests this was from his being turned into a zombie, Jeph and I think it 
makes more sense if he got the injuries from a real explosion (CAv3 #50), 
rather than radiation (Av3 #44). It's also worth noting that the Master sends 
up his ring walls at the end of this issue, which "forces" the Kang War almost 
in it's entirety after Graviton's attack from Thunderbolts.
Avengers v3 #46
Avengers v3 #47
Avengers v3 #48 
Avengers v3 #49 --Washington DC is nuked by Kang.
Avengers v3 #50
Avengers v3 #51 
Avengers v3 #52
Avengers v3 #53
Avengers v3 #54 -- Thor disappears at end of issue. 
Captain America v3 #49
Peter Parker #37 -- It's snowing absurdly hard...
Iron Man v3 #50 (flashback) -- ... which is referenced here as well. It's also 
shown to be Christmas Eve. One more note from Tom: "Also, most of IRON MAN #50 
occurs after the events of KANG DYNASTY. While the readers first see Tony don 
the new armor in IM #50, he actually first wears it in the closing chapters of 
the Kang War." Because of this, I've had to also move down PP #37 and CAv3 #50 
(and #49) because of the snowing and XMas references. But we can now at least 
utilize some of the three week gap between Av3 #54 and #55.
Captain America v3 #50 -- The stories appear in order. The first occurs on 
XMas Eve. After Cap's "death," we see a non-pregnant Invisible Woman and Namor 
as sovereign of Atlantis. Like most funerals, we're presuming this occurs 
within a week after his "death."
Iron Man v3 #50 -- This occurs about one week after Christmas, according to 
the captions.
Peter Parker #38 -- Spidey vs mimes. Still got three weeks to fill... Besides, 
I want to highlight this issue because it's a REALLY funny story. So go buy a 
copy if you haven't already!
Avengers v3 #55 -- Three weeks after Av3 #54. Thor returns. Rebuilding has 
been taking place; presumably, more vitally important command structures (like 
the White House) were worked on first.
X-Treme X-Men #10
X-Treme X-Men #11 -- Given that we have the introduction of the Grell-Ryan 
armor so close before the Kang War proper, Khan's invasion almost has to occur 
afterwards. But since Thor makes an appearance here, we have to push it back 
until after his return in Av3 #55. Note also that the White House has been 
restored by this point.
X-Treme X-Men #12
X-Treme X-Men #13 
X-Treme X-Men #14
X-Treme X-Men #15
X-Treme X-Men #16 
Avengers v3 #56 (flashback) -- This story occurs before Thor has left to do 
the monarch bit in Asgard. Note that Iron Man's appearances in the flashback 
are not necessarily after his unmasking.
Defenders v2 #12 -- The Defenders becomes The Order. We had originally put 
this much earlier before the Kang War, but writer Kurt Busiek definitively 
said The Order comes after Av3 #55, which is why Thor does not appear in the 
series.
The Order #1
The Order #2 
The Order #3 
The Order #4
The Order #5 
The Order #6 -- The Defenders curse is lifted.
Black Panther v3 #41 -- Iron Man appears in his Grell-Ryan armor, pushing 
this after the Kang War proper. We also saw that T'Challa was apparently on 
friendly terms with Iron Man during The Order, suggesting this storyline 
occurs after that one.
Black Panther v3 #42 
Black Panther v3 #43
Black Panther v3 #44
Black Panther v3 #45 --  Black Panther and Iron Man accidentally put a 
large hole in the White House. Placing that incident here would help justify 
Wasp's pointing out the reconstruction in the as-yet-unreleased Av3 #57.
Black Panther v3 #46 
Black Panther v3 #47 
Deadline #1 -- Given how little news is mentioned about world events, Jeph 
and I decided this series must occur some time after the Kang War. We also 
see reference to people questioning who's wearing the Captain America mask, 
suggesting it's before his relaunched series.
Peter Parker #39 
Peter Parker #40 
Deadline #2 ~ Peter Parker #41 -- Spider-Man fights Dr. Octopus on the 
rooftops. The brief cameo in Deadline appears to coincide fairly well with 
the battle in Peter Parker, so most of his series is after the Kang War as 
well.
Deadline #3
Deadline #4
Daredevil v2 #26 -- This story is all over the map chronologically, so I'm 
only placing the main "now" storyline in context of this list. But since we 
see that Kingpin is blinded (or dead) throughout the flashbacks that occur 
up to 3 months ago, we have to put a lot of time between the September 11 
stories and these. Given that we're clearly after the New Year's following 
September 11 (as noted by the Christmas stories earlier), this should give 
enough time for everything.
Daredevil v2 #27
Elektra #6 --  Elektra is in NYC. This story leads directly into DDv2 #28.
Daredevil v2 #28
Daredevil v2 #29
Daredevil v2 #30
Daredevil v2 #31
Elektra #7 
Elektra #8 
Elektra #9 
Daredevil v2 #32 -- Matt Murdock is revealed to be Daredevil. Since this made 
such widespread news within the Marvel Universe, this was placed before Cap 
and Iron Man's respective unmaskings.
Daredevil v2 #33
Daredevil v2 #34 -- Elektra is shown in London. This would coincide with the 
world travelling that is later shown in Elektra #12.
Daredevil v2 #35 
Peter Parker #42
Peter Parker #43
Peter Parker #44
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #32 -- The "Spidey vs Morlun" storyline only occurs over 
the course of only a day or two. It ends with Peter getting severely beaten, 
which is useful in determining some of his other appearances.
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #33
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #34 
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #35 
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #37
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #38 
Peter Parker #45 -- Here, we have a bandaged Peter Parker. The story implies 
this occurs shortly after #44, but we have to place the Spidey/Morlun fight 
between the issues to account for the bandages.
Peter Parker #46 
Fantastic Four v3 #55 
Fantastic Four v3 #56 -- Ben, perhaps in evaluating the recent Kang War 
events, reveals he is Jewish.
Thing: Freakshow #1 -- Ben loses some small chunks of his hide in a battle with 
the Wrecker.
Thing: Freakshow #2 
Iron Man v3 #51
Fantastic Four v3 #57
Fantastic Four v3 #58
Fantastic Four v3 #59 -- Reed uses a piece of Ben's hide from Freakshow to 
analyze recent changes in his skin.
Captain America v4 #1
Captain America v4 #2
Captain America v4 #3 -- Cap unmasks on national television.
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #39
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #40
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #41
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #42 -- Dr. Strange cameos. Supposedly, this will lead 
into an upcoming Dr. Strange story: "An Appointment With Death."
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #43
Hulk v2 #34 -- Bruce Banner shaves his head. We see this transfers to the 
Hulk (despite that the opposite occurs with his cousin), so it must occur 
after The Order. The manhunt for him could justifyably be in part for being 
a pain in the butt in that series, as well as the 'murder' of Ricky mentioned 
in this story.
Hulk v2 #35 
Hulk v2 #36 
Hulk v2 #37
Hulk v2 #38 
Hulk v2 #39
Hulk v2 #40 
Hulk v2 #41 
Hulk v2 #42 
Hulk v2 #43 
Iron Man v3 #51
Iron Man v3 #52
Iron Man v3 #53
Iron Man v3 #54
Iron Man v3 #55 -- Tony Stark unmasks, probably following Cap's lead.
Iron Man v3 #56
Avengers v3 #56 -- Stark has only recently revealed his identity, and it's not 
quite common knowledge yet, thus putting this shortly after IMv3 #55. We also 
know from the Beast's dialogue that this occurs approximately one month after 
the flashback.
Elektra #10 
Elektra #11
Elektra #12 
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #43 -- Since Doc Ock is out of prison here, we need to 
put as much space as we reasonably can after his capture in PP #41.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Iron Man #50
Posted by Jeph! on August 13, 2002 at 18:38:52:
In Reply to: Re: The Kang War, New and Improved
posted by SKleefeld on August 13, 2002 at 16:51:02:

Grarrr ... wish ... I had ... more time!

Sean, Tom:  I'll go with "between A3 #40-41" for the Celestial Quest and 
Infinity Abyss issues, but I'm not so sure about the Iron Man #50 re-
placement.

I mean, yes, it works fine for Iron Man's chronology.  But because both 
issues reference Christmas, Cap #50 is tied to Iron Man #50.  And moving 
Cap's death shakes the list (and a lot of the basic assumptions made therein) 
up a hell of a lot.

First and foremost, on my mind, if you move Cap #50 from between Avengers #44 
and #45, you remove the only "other" on-panel rationale Cap has for being so 
beat-up he needs a floating chair.  If you move it out, you're left with 
eleven Cap appearances between A3 #44-45 where he's perfectly healthy and 
spry, followed by an issue where he's moaning about radiation poisoning and 
confined to a wheelchair.  That stinks.

Also, because the Beast appears in his non-cat form at Cap's funeral, that 
pushes every X-Men comic from "New X-Men" #114-up after the Kang War.  And 
given that Thor's appearance in X-Treme X-Men #11 has to be before he leaves 
in A3 #56, that means dumping approximately 100 X-books into the gap between 
A3 #54-56.

I mean, the change COULD be made.  But like Tom said, he had no input on books 
he didn't edit, and "author's/editor's intent" only goes SO far.  It's one 
thing to say that IM #50 is MEANT to be after the Kang War.  It's another 
thing to just make the change before checking if the line-wide ramifications 
are feasible.

Crap, I need to get back to work on this, don't I.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Iron Man #50
Posted by Tom Brevoort on August 13, 2002 at 21:44:03:
In Reply to: Re: Iron Man #50
posted by Jeph! on August 13, 2002 at 18:38:52:

> I mean, yes, it works fine for Iron Man's chronology.  But because both 
issues reference Christmas, Cap #50 is tied to Iron Man #50.

Not necessarily. This is what George Olshevsky used to refer to as a "topical 
reference", a reference in the books to seasons or real-world figures that 
would not stand the test of time, in order to create topicality and a 
connection with the real world in the short term. So I'd argue that CAP #50 
and IM #50 don't necessarily have to take place at the same time--nor are 
they even necessarily the same Christmas. Given the difference between real-
world time and Marvel time, such references are going to fall by the wayside 
over the long haul anyway. (We have another Christmas coming up in IRON MAN 
#62, and yet the cast isn't notably a year older than they were in IM #50. 
Hey, maybe CAP #50 takes place at the same time as IM #62-63!)

So I say leave CAP #50 where you had it, adjust the placement of IM #50, and 
let the chips fall where they may. Or, if it bothers you that much, move IM 
#50 back to its original spot--I don't think it works there terribly well, 
but it's not like I'm bound by any of this anyway.

Tom Brevoort

			*	*	*

Re: Iron Man #50
Posted by Jeph! on August 13, 2002 at 23:55:30:
In Reply to: Re: Iron Man #50
posted by Tom Brevoort on August 13, 2002 at 21:44:03:

> I'd argue that CAP #50 and IM #50 don't necessarily have to take place at 
the same time--nor are they even necessarily the same Christmas ... (We have 
another Christmas coming up in IRON MAN #62, and yet the cast isn't notably 
a year older than they were in IM #50. Hey, maybe CAP #50 takes place at the 
same time as IM #62-63!)

Don't push us, Brevoort.  ;)

> So I say leave CAP #50 where you had it, adjust the placement of IM #50, 
and let the chips fall where they may.

I'm leaning towards that -- Cap #50 is important and tied into stuff, Iron 
Man #50 is not.

> Or, if it bothers you that much, move IM #50 back to its original spot--I 
don't think it works there terribly well, but it's not like I'm bound by any 
of this anyway.

Was there any specific story reason that IM #50 works poorly where it was?

By the way, I don't have the book at hand, but from your dialogue I'm assuming 
that IM #50 is NOT the "origin" of the newest armor.  Just it's first showing 
in the pages of IM.  Is this correct?

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Oh yeah-
Posted by Jeph! on August 14, 2002 at 18:42:55:
In Reply to: Re: Iron Man #50
posted by Tom Brevoort on August 13, 2002 at 21:44:03:

By the way, Tom, in case nobody's said it yet:

Thanks very much for taking the time to give us your feedback.  Whether we 
bicker back at you or not, I find it very cool that an actual Marvel editor 
is willing to send us some tips and pointers on a project we've put a lot 
into.

Again, thanks.  It's much appreciated.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Oh yeah-
Posted by wonderfly on August 15, 2002 at 12:43:43:
In Reply to: Oh yeah-
posted by Jeph! on August 14, 2002 at 18:42:55:

Yeah, thanks! And here I thought no one at Marvel cared!  I saw that name, 
and I said to myself..."Tom Brevoort...that name sounds familiar...why does 
it bring to mind the Avengers letter page?" Honestly, that's what I thought.  
It's cool to see a Marvelite here and giving tips, and it's much appreciated. 

			*	*	*

Re: The Kang War, New and Improved
Posted by Tom Brevoort on August 13, 2002 at 21:38:17:
In Reply to: Re: The Kang War, New and Improved
posted by SKleefeld on August 13, 2002 at 16:51:02:

One other note: IRON MAN #46-48 absolutely occur after AVENGERS: ULTRON 
IMPERATIVE--they have to, it's too important to the content of both stories. 
So you'll just have to chalk Hank Pym momentarily wearing his Goliath costume 
as a one day abberation--maybe his Yellowjacket suit was in the wash. 

In cases like this, I'd always advise basing placement on what harms the 
majority of the story least. It's no big deal for Hank to have on his Goliath 
duds for a couple of panels, but it is a big deal for Antigone to figure into 
the climax of a story that you're chronologically placing before her origin.

Tom Brevoort

			*	*	*

Re: The Kang War, New and Improved
Posted by Jeph! on August 13, 2002 at 23:50:26:
In Reply to: Re: The Kang War, New and Improved
posted by Tom Brevoort on August 13, 2002 at 21:38:17:

> One other note: IRON MAN #46-48 absolutely occur after AVENGERS: ULTRON 
IMPERATIVE--they have to, it's too important to the content of both stories.

Tom, I'm not sure what typo may have crept into Sean's list, but we DO have 
Iron Man #46-48 occuring after "Ultron Imperative".  What we've done, though, 
is noticed and found a gap in IM #46, and exploited it.  Pages 1-15 feature 
Hank Pym as Goliath -- pages 16-on are when the religious zealots show up 
and the action begins.  We placed "Ultron Imperative" in that gap, because it 
works very well with both Hank Pym's identities AND Tony's armor-wearing 
chronologies.

Now, given this placement it does appear that Ultron is in two places at 
once, behind the scenes of the religious organization while he is being 
rebuilt by Alkhema's offspring, but hey -- he's a computer.  And a devious 
one at that.

Sean and I figured that he left some portion of his personality, some 
programming override, in the sentient armor.  And that "bit" of Ultron ran 
on automatic, guiding and fooling the religious order during the first 15 
pages of IM #46.  Then, Ultron Imperative occured, and Antigone ran off with 
the "real" Ultron's head.  And, once that head was reunited with the "bit" 
of itself in the sentient armor, Ultron was re-formed and the fun kicked 
into high gear -- which was when we pick the narrative up on p.16 of IM #46.

Yes, it's a stretch.  But heck, at the end of the day it's all fiction, and 
none of this matters.

As for issue #50 -- once you take out the superficial topicality of the 
Christmas reference, it seems to be a fairly stand-alone story, right?  It 
could take place pretty much anywhere.  So it comes down to "original intent" 
over "superficial XMas reference" -- and heck, there's a damned big Xmas 
reference in X-Men #109, which on this list takes place a few short months 
before the X-men's appearance on Sept. 11th.  I'm not going to force the 
issue, but I like to think that with big events like Christmases it's nice 
to streamline the MU whenever you can -- I mean, Cap #50 and IM #50 were 
published at the same time, why not line up the Christmas references?

Eh.  It's all fiction.  Iron man #50 is the least of our problems on this 
list.

Sean, if you're still reading, we may have to shuffle Spidey's battle with 
Morlun and Aunt May's coming-to-terms with his identity to BEFORE ASM2 
#36 ... I've found some other crap that doesn't add up.  More later.

	-Jeph!
half the fun is in making sure all the minute, inconsequential details are 
right.

			*	*	*

And I thought we were done with this!
Posted by SKleefeld on August 14, 2002 at 12:53:01:
In Reply to: Re: The Kang War, New and Improved
posted by Jeph! on August 13, 2002 at 23:50:26:

> > One other note: IRON MAN #46-48 absolutely occur after AVENGERS: ULTRON 
IMPERATIVE--they have to, it's too important to the content of both stories.

> Tom, I'm not sure what typo may have crept into Sean's list, but we DO have 
Iron Man #46-48 occuring after "Ultron Imperative".  What we've done, though, 
is noticed and found a gap in IM #46, and exploited it.  Pages 1-15 feature 
Hank Pym as Goliath -- pages 16-on are when the religious zealots show up and 
the action begins.  We placed "Ultron Imperative" in that gap, because it 
works very well with both Hank Pym's identities AND Tony's armor-wearing 
chronologies.

Yeah! What he said!  :)

> Now, given this placement it does appear that Ultron is in two places at 
once, behind the scenes of the religious organization while he is being 
rebuilt by Alkhema's offspring, but hey -- he's a computer.  And a devious 
one at that.

Plus -- and this is what sold me on the idea -- we've seen Ultron running 
around multi-tasking before. As recently as Av3 #22! For that story to work, 
we have to assume that either A) Ultron is INCREDIBLE at multi-tasking to be 
able to fight all the Avengers separately and simultaneously, or B) each 
Ultron body is capable of independant thought and action. If A were the case, 
then we can easily believe Ultron has multiple schemes running simultaneously. 
If B were the case, another Ultron personality could have initiated the events 
in IMv3 #46-48 with the "lead" Ultron taking over after A:UI.

> Yes, it's a stretch.  But heck, at the end of the day it's all fiction, and 
none of this matters.

Well, there's that, too!

> As for issue #50 -- once you take out the superficial topicality of the 
Christmas reference, it seems to be a fairly stand-alone story, right?  It 
could take place pretty much anywhere.  So it comes down to "original intent" 
over "superficial XMas reference" -- and heck, there's a damned big Xmas 
reference in X-Men #109, which on this list takes place a few short months 
before the X-men's appearance on Sept. 11th.  I'm not going to force the 
issue, but I like to think that with big events like Christmases it's nice 
to streamline the MU whenever you can -- I mean, Cap #50 and IM #50 were 
published at the same time, why not line up the Christmas references?

Cripes! I might have to bring out my LMD theory again!

> Eh.  It's all fiction.  Iron man #50 is the least of our problems on this 
list.

Well, technically, I think IMv3 #49 was less of a problem!  :)

> Sean, if you're still reading, we may have to shuffle Spidey's battle with 
Morlun and Aunt May's coming-to-terms with his identity to BEFORE ASM2 
#36 ... I've found some other crap that doesn't add up.  More later.

What? No! Tell me you're kidding! We've got nothing larger than a cameo of 
Spidey from ASMv2 #36 until after the Kang War's over.

Seriously, the only thing I can think of in through there that might affect 
Spidey's continuity would be Infinity Abyss. And the only thing I remember 
from that was an oblique reference to being split up from MJ.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: And I thought we were done with this!
Posted by Jeph! on August 14, 2002 at 18:37:26:
In Reply to: And I thought we were done with this!
posted by SKleefeld on August 14, 2002 at 12:53:01:

> Cripes! I might have to bring out my LMD theory again!

Don't you dare, Kleefeld.  We've gotten this far without it.  ;)

> Well, technically, I think IMv3 #49 was less of a problem!  :)

Personally I'd say Avengers #46-54 were pretty easy to place.

> > Sean, if you're still reading, we may have to shuffle Spidey's battle 
with Morlun and Aunt May's coming-to-terms with his identity to BEFORE ASM2 
#36 ... I've found some other crap that doesn't add up.  More later.

> What? No! Tell me you're kidding! We've got nothing larger than a cameo 
of Spidey from ASMv2 #36 until after the Kang War's over.

> Seriously, the only thing I can think of in through there that might 
affect Spidey's continuity would be Infinity Abyss. And the only thing I 
remember from that was an oblique reference to being split up from MJ.

Yeah, well I just re-read "Sweet Charity" and Aunt May knows Spidey's 
identity in that issue (and is okay with it, actually).  That means that 
SM:SC has to come after ASM #38 and PPSM #45 -- and, actually, since Aunt 
May is joking about Peter being Spidey, it should probably come after 
issues #39-40 as well, where she comes to terms with it.

So where to place Sweet Charity?

Now, Sweet Charity contains a Hawkeye appearance, a Cap appearance, and a 
behind-the-scenes appearance of Wolverine and Rogue, who auctioned themselves 
off as a package.

Now:  Hawkeye is out of the picture from TB #50-63.  Wolverine and Rogue 
haven't seen each other since just before "Gambit & Bishop" #1-FB, where 
the X-Treme Team left the mansion (between ASM2 #36 and X #111 in mainstream 
X-chronology).

This strongly suggests that "Sweet Charity" has to take place before TB #50 
and before G&B #1-FB.  But, since the issue is a WTC disaster fundraiser, it 
has to be after ASM2 #36.  That's a very small window.

If SM:SC has to be there, closely after ASM2 #36, then everything from ASM2 
#40 (or 38) and PPSM2 #45 backwards has to go BEFORE it.

Of course, this could all be "later".  Hawkeye and Cap's appearances could 
come AFTER the T-Bolt's "Becoming Heroes" arc wraps up in #75, and Rogue IS 
coming home to the X-Mansion in XX #19.

But, seeing as this is a "WTC disaster relief" fundraiser and NOT a "Kang war 
cleanup" or "Washington DC disaster relief" fundrasier, I'm inclined to place 
it right after the Marvel WTC disaster and not months after it, after the 
carnage of Genosha and the Kang War.

Sorry, Sean.

	-Jeph!

PS - I couldn't find one instance where the Thing says he's never been 
auctioned before in SM:SC.  It's ended up placed before FF3 #50 (and Thing's 
other auction) anyway, but I couldn't find the reference.  (Or were you saying 
that Thing claims he's never been auctioned before in FF3 #50/3?)

			*	*	*

Re: And I thought we were done with this!
Posted by SKleefeld on August 14, 2002 at 20:41:03:
In Reply to: Re: And I thought we were done with this!
posted by Jeph! on August 14, 2002 at 18:37:26:

> Yeah, well I just re-read "Sweet Charity" and Aunt May knows Spidey's 
identity in that issue (and is okay with it, actually).  That means that 
SM:SC has to come after ASM #38 and PPSM #45 -- and, actually, since Aunt 
May is joking about Peter being Spidey, it should probably come after issues 
#39-40 as well, where she comes to terms with it.

> So where to place Sweet Charity?

Out of continuity?  :)

> Now, Sweet Charity contains a Hawkeye appearance, a Cap appearance, and a 
behind-the-scenes appearance of Wolverine and Rogue, who auctioned themselves 
off as a package.

> Now:  Hawkeye is out of the picture from TB #50-63.  Wolverine and Rogue 
haven't seen each other since just before "Gambit & Bishop" #1-FB, where the 
X-Treme Team left the mansion (between ASM2 #36 and X #111 in mainstream 
X-chronology).

> This strongly suggests that "Sweet Charity" has to take place before TB #50 
and before G&B #1-FB.  But, since the issue is a WTC disaster fundraiser, it 
has to be after ASM2 #36.  That's a very small window.

> If SM:SC has to be there, closely after ASM2 #36, then everything from ASM2 
#40 (or 38) and PPSM2 #45 backwards has to go BEFORE it.

> Of course, this could all be "later".  Hawkeye and Cap's appearances could 
come AFTER the T-Bolt's "Becoming Heroes" arc wraps up in #75, and Rogue IS 
coming home to the X-Mansion in XX #19.

> But, seeing as this is a "WTC disaster relief" fundraiser and NOT a "Kang 
war cleanup" or "Washington DC disaster relief" fundrasier, I'm inclined to 
place it right after the Marvel WTC disaster and not months after it, after 
the carnage of Genosha and the Kang War.

Ok, granted it's got to be after ASMv2 #36 (and we're assuming canonocity 
here, which is a bit of stretch for me in the first place), but the only 
direct reference I'm seeing to 9-11 is the radio announcer who saves it's 
for WTC victims. Which means we could drop this in September 2002 as a sort 
of anniversary-let's-not-forget-the-individuals-who-were-hurt-last-year 
thing.

> Sorry, Sean.

I'll be damned if I'm going to let this book get in my way!

> PS - I couldn't find one instance where the Thing says he's never been 
auctioned before in SM:SC.  It's ended up placed before FF3 #50 (and Thing's 
other auction) anyway, but I couldn't find the reference.  (Or were you 
saying that Thing claims he's never been auctioned before in FF3 #50/3?)

It's more of an implied reference than overt. During Ben's conversation 
with Spidey (right after Torch takes off), he says "It ain't like anybody 
is gonna spend their life savings fer a weekend hangin' around my ugly mug 
either." The implication is that it's never ocurred before. Clearly we've 
got some wiggle room there, though. Ben could be just using his standard 
humility routine to convince Spidey of what to do. The auction in FFv3 #50 
was only for one night, not a weekend. And "life savings" is pretty vague 
anyway.

Since we've got Aunt May to contend with, I'm inclined to go with pushing 
this until long after everything we've got on the list thus far.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: And I thought we were done with this!
Posted by Jeph! on August 14, 2002 at 21:35:34:
In Reply to: Re: And I thought we were done with this!
posted by SKleefeld on August 14, 2002 at 20:41:03:

> Since we've got Aunt May to contend with, I'm inclined to go with pushing 
this until long after everything we've got on the list thus far.

Well, to be fair, the only other link Spidey has to the Kang War list is the 
snowstorm in PPSM #37, which you think is a snowstorm in IM3 #50 -- my God, 
does the MU have only one storm?  ;)

We could juggle Spidey's chronology up and down the line and it wouldn't make 
a blind bit of difference to his appearances in "Infinity Abyss" and A3 #51.  
Moving everything from ASM2 #40-back behind ASM2 #36 doesn't result in any 
major change for any character -- not even Spidey, so long as we keep his own 
internal chronology consistent.

Yeah, we could put SM:SC later -- much later.  But remember, there's the 
Hawkeye, Cap, and Wolverine-plus-Rogue appearances to contend with.  If you 
can find a point in the nearish future when all these folks are available, 
we'll slot it there.  After all, SM:SC is a damned lame excuse for a reason 
to bend and warp the perfectly-good chronology we've got for Spidey.

But, as I said with to you with the "Order" and "X-Treme X-Men" placement, 
be prepared to deal with future evidence that our current setup needs to be 
overhauled.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: And I thought we were done with this!
Posted by SKleefeld on August 16, 2002 at 15:36:16:
In Reply to: Re: And I thought we were done with this!
posted by Jeph! on August 14, 2002 at 21:35:34:

> > Since we've got Aunt May to contend with, I'm inclined to go with pushing 
this until long after everything we've got on the list thus far.

> Well, to be fair, the only other link Spidey has to the Kang War list is 
the snowstorm in PPSM #37, which you think is a snowstorm in IM3 #50 -- my 
God, does the MU have only one storm?  ;)

Well, one per year is allowed, but more than that exceeds their quota. I 
think that's a holdover from the days when National was their distributor.  :)

Seriously, though, I think there's enough indication that it's the same storm. 
Not necessarily the same night, but there are very similar radio announcements 
in both cases talking about how the mayor really missed the boat and is 
catching heck for not having it cleaned up sooner.

> We could juggle Spidey's chronology up and down the line and it wouldn't 
make a blind bit of difference to his appearances in "Infinity Abyss" and A3 
#51.  Moving everything from ASM2 #40-back behind ASM2 #36 doesn't result in 
any major change for any character -- not even Spidey, so long as we keep his 
own internal chronology consistent.

Ah, but it does! Remember that Human Torch appears in ASMv2 #37 and we've got 
the whole not-quite-in-control-with-his-powers thing to deal with. (Not that 
we can't work around it, but it would have an impact.)

> Yeah, we could put SM:SC later -- much later.  But remember, there's the 
Hawkeye, Cap, and Wolverine-plus-Rogue appearances to contend with.  If you 
can find a point in the nearish future when all these folks are available, 
we'll slot it there.  After all, SM:SC is a damned lame excuse for a reason 
to bend and warp the perfectly-good chronology we've got for Spidey.

Agreed!

> But, as I said with to you with the "Order" and "X-Treme X-Men" placement, 
be prepared to deal with future evidence that our current setup needs to be 
overhauled.

OK, we string up Busiek for starting this mess, Brevoort for causing more 
problems and sanctioning it, and Zimmerman for just messing with our heads 
after the fact!  :)

I'm thinking that we either push SM:SC to some indetermanent point in the 
future and dance around that when we need to or drop it altogether.

Back to the issue of moving the XMas references around...

The more I think about it, the less I like having that business after the 
Kang War. There's the whole bandaged Cap issue -- which we'd have to 
resort -- the non-feline Beast, and the killer: Iron Man wearing his 
transitional armor at Cap's funeral.

We either have to move both CAv3 #50 and IMv3 #50 to before the Kang War or 
have CAv3 #50 before the Kang War and push IMv3 #50 until the following 
Christmas! 

The other option would be the Olshevsky "topical reference" dodge, but 
personally I try to avoid those if at all possible. The whole "topical 
reference" thing never quite made much sense to me in the first place, 
since you could argueably claim ANYTHING is a topical reference if you 
just didn't want to have to deal with it. He never seemed terribly consistent 
with how he used it either. Plus, I'm not trying to force these stories into 
a specific calendar and reconciling that against seasonal changes, 
presidencies, etc.

I guess I'm more inclined to have our whole snowstorm/Christmas sequence 
before the Kang War in one lump, creator intent be damned. (Sorry, Tom!)

-- Sean

			*	*	*

More on "Sweet Charity", and a lil on "Infinity Abyss".
Posted by Jeph! on August 16, 2002 at 23:40:05:
In Reply to: Re: And I thought we were done with this!
posted by SKleefeld on August 16, 2002 at 15:36:16:

> Seriously, though, I think there's enough indication that it's the same 
storm. Not necessarily the same night, but there are very similar radio 
announcements in both cases talking about how the mayor really missed the 
boat and is catching heck for not having it cleaned up sooner.

Would you mind sending some quotes my way re: these radio announcements?  
If it WAS meant to be the same storm we should treat it as such, I suppose.

> Remember that Human Torch appears in ASMv2 #37 and we've got the whole 
not-quite-in-control-with-his-powers thing to deal with. (Not that we can't 
work around it, but it would have an impact.)

Well, the Torch only has no control of his powers from FF3 #44-49.  Our 
current placement of PPSM2 #37 is well after that, and my suggested re-
placement of it was around ASM2 #36 -- between FF3 #39 and 40.  Either way, 
the Torch's appearance is solid.

On the other hand...

> OK, we string up Busiek for starting this mess, Brevoort for causing more 
problems and sanctioning it, and Zimmerman for just messing with our heads 
after the fact!  :)

I say we string up Zimmerman for jam-packing the damn book with ass-kissing 
namedrops of his favorite celebrities.  Okay, Ron, you like the Howard Stern 
show.  We get it.  And why was the cameo from Sam Simon necessary at all?

> I'm thinking that we either push SM:SC to some indetermanent point in the 
future and dance around that when we need to or drop it altogether.

I agree.  I've found some more stuff that leads me to believe the issue 
occurs/will occur later, rather than prior to now:

1)  You pointed out that Torch is in his "pre-Onslaught" outfit.  Well, if 
you check the solicitation for FF3 #60-61, you'll find the FF back in those 
outfits.

2)  Jonah balks at having the X-Men at the charity auction, because they're 
"too overexposed".  Granted, this was meant as an in-joke, but in the X-books, 
the X-Men have been in the media spotlight ever since X #116.  They've had 
several press conferences and being a mutant is the new cool fad.  I'd say 
that counts as "overexposed" -- and, if this is what Jonah is referring to, 
SM:SC couldn't take place anytime before X #116 (and the "close to Sept. 11" 
placement I suggested earlier would put it between X 110-111).

3)  From Jonah's text, this auction is to raise money to REBUILD the WTC area.  
Not to benefit the families, not to clean up, but to REBUILD.  Also, Robbie 
says that Jonah has already contributed to every WTC charity -- implying, the 
issue doesn't take place right after the disaster, but some time after, when 
New York is rebuilding.

All this combined with the notions that Hawkeye will be freed from his status 
quo by October, and Wolverine and Rogue will meet back up at the mansion in 
XX #18-19 -- all will possibly be free to be auctioned off at some relatively-
soon future date.

I think it's fairly clear that a window is approaching soon, and that SM:SC 
fits into that window, rather than warp a perfectly good pre-existing Spidey 
chronology.

> Back to the issue of moving the XMas references around...

> We either have to move both CAv3 #50 and IMv3 #50 to before the Kang War 
or have CAv3 #50 before the Kang War and push IMv3 #50 until the following 
Christmas!

Or you just go with it and pretend that all seasons are happening at once, 
and it's Christmas at any given time in any given book.  "Topical references".  
Which I hate.

> I guess I'm more inclined to have our whole snowstorm/Christmas sequence 
before the Kang War in one lump, creator intent be damned. (Sorry, Tom!)

Yeah.  Honestly, me too.

I mean, if things work out all logjammed, and you end up with one Christmas 
being celebrated in X #109, and another being celebrated in a Cap issue just 
prior to X #114, well, that's how it works, and the chronologists swallow 
the bitter pill.

But if an opportunity presents itself to streamline the forty-years-
masquerading-as-ten that the MU has become -- an opportunity like this, to 
take two Christmas-themed issues and put them next to each other on a 
chronology list -- to make them the same Christmas, the same Marvel year-
end, rather than place them on opposing sides of a two-month saga -- then 
I say take the opportunity.

The point of following "chronology" at all is to pretend that these characters 
are living in a real universe where mistakes aren't made and things flow 
logically.  Why not take steps to ensure that the universe looks as cohesive 
and "real" as possible from outside?

Sure, we're gonna have a Christmas in X #109 bookending one end of this 
list, and a Christmas in IM3 #62 coming soon to bookend the other half.  But 
what would you rather have in the middle of the list -- one Christmas more, 
or TWO?

Unless someone can show me specific chronology reasons why IM3 #50 doesn't 
work next to CA3 #50 on the Kang war list, I vote to leave it there.

Again, sorry, Tom.

By the way, speaking of Tom's remarks to us, Sean, I've been thinking about 
"Infinity Abyss".  And while I think you and I were leaning towards putting 
it in-between A3 #44-45, and I don't think it really matters much at ALL if 
we leave it there or place it between #40-41 as Tom suggested, there is one 
way that the #40-41 placement is far better.

Captain Marvel and Moondragon appear in "IA", and they also appear in FF3 
#46.  If we put the "IA" series next to A3 #41, and FF3 #346 already abuts 
A3 #42, then Cap and Moony's appearances in IA and FF can be placed into the 
SAME hole in their chronologies, rather than having to create TWO holes.  
And since neither you nor I own the "Captain Marvel" run that we're looking 
to place them in, I'd say having to find one hole rather than two is much 
preferable.

So I'm voting to shift "IA" back, like Tom suggested -- not that there was 
much of a reason AGAINST doing it.

I think that should do it.  I'm working on my version of this thing now, 
trying to stick the X-books in.  Hopefully, now that the move has settled 
down, I'll be able to make a little more progress.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: More on "Sweet Charity", and a lil on "Infinity Abyss".
Posted by SKleefeld on August 17, 2002 at 10:21:55:
In Reply to: More on "Sweet Charity", and a lil on "Infinity Abyss".
posted by Jeph! on August 16, 2002 at 23:40:05:

> > Seriously, though, I think there's enough indication that it's the same 
storm. Not necessarily the same night, but there are very similar radio 
announcements in both cases talking about how the mayor really missed the 
boat and is catching heck for not having it cleaned up sooner.

> Would you mind sending some quotes my way re: these radio announcements?  
If it WAS meant to be the same storm we should treat it as such, I suppose.

OK, last page of IMv3 #50... "Meanwhile, in local news, the mayor's office 
issued an official apology for the failure to plan sufficient snow removal--"

In PP #37, there actually several references to the bad weather. First, the 
radio as Peter wakes up: "...record lows across most of the country. Mother 
Nature's really sockin' it to us, and that's the big news here on your number 
one news and weather station -- WJNX, New York! Ha ha! That's right, Trent... 
Making this officially the coldest day on record here in the city, with more 
to come over the next week or two! So, with all schools and most businesses 
closed, our advice is to wrap up warm, turn on the fire and stay inside for 
a chance to win five million dollars --"

Then, Aunt May calls and asks Peter to shovel her walkway. Peter replies that 
"There's fifty feet of snow piled up --" Obviously, an exaggeration, but at 
least some verification that a snow storm has come with these low 
temperatures.

Then, at the end, we have a final radio report: "So, with temperatures poking 
up into the minus thirties, and an additional wind-chill factor of minus 
twenty, that takes us to minus fifty, for those of you scoring at home! Looks 
like another snow day tomorrow!"

So, it sounds very much to me like this storm hits just before PP #37 and 
continues through IMv3 #50. I don't know that it was SUPPOSED to be the same 
storm, but it fits together fairly well.

> > I'm thinking that we either push SM:SC to some indetermanent point in the 
future and dance around that when we need to or drop it altogether.

> I agree.  I've found some more stuff that leads me to believe the issue 
occurs/will occur later, rather than prior to now:

> 1)  You pointed out that Torch is in his "pre-Onslaught" outfit.  Well, if 
you check the solicitation for FF3 #60-61, you'll find the FF back in those 
outfits.

Not seeing this anywhere. The preview stuff I've seen for all the upcoming 
FF issues has the team in blue outfits with black trim. SM:SC has the Torch 
in a blue outfit with white trim. This is one point I'm thinking we won't be 
able to easily reconcile.

> I think it's fairly clear that a window is approaching soon, and that SM:SC 
fits into that window, rather than warp a perfectly good pre-existing Spidey 
chronology.

Agreed.

> I mean, if things work out all logjammed, and you end up with one Christmas 
being celebrated in X #109, and another being celebrated in a Cap issue just 
prior to X #114, well, that's how it works, and the chronologists swallow the 
bitter pill.

> But if an opportunity presents itself to streamline the forty-years-
masquerading-as-ten that the MU has become -- an opportunity like this, to 
take two Christmas-themed issues and put them next to each other on a 
chronology list -- to make them the same Christmas, the same Marvel year-
end, rather than place them on opposing sides of a two-month saga -- then 
I say take the opportunity.

> The point of following "chronology" at all is to pretend that these 
characters are living in a real universe where mistakes aren't made and 
things flow logically.  Why not take steps to ensure that the universe looks 
as cohesive and "real" as possible from outside?<p>> Sure, we're gonna have 
a Christmas in X #109 bookending one end of this list, and a Christmas in 
IM3 #62 coming soon to bookend the other half.  But what would you rather 
have in the middle of the list -- one Christmas more, or TWO?

> Unless someone can show me specific chronology reasons why IM3 #50 doesn't 
work next to CA3 #50 on the Kang war list, I vote to leave it there.

> Again, sorry, Tom.

Power to the people!  :)

> By the way, speaking of Tom's remarks to us, Sean, I've been thinking 
about "Infinity Abyss".  And while I think you and I were leaning towards 
putting it in-between A3 #44-45, and I don't think it really matters much 
at ALL if we leave it there or place it between #40-41 as Tom suggested, 
there is one way that the #40-41 placement is far better.

> Captain Marvel and Moondragon appear in "IA", and they also appear in 
FF3 #46.  If we put the "IA" series next to A3 #41, and FF3 #346 already 
abuts A3 #42, then Cap and Moony's appearances in IA and FF can be placed 
into the SAME hole in their chronologies, rather than having to create TWO 
holes.  And since neither you nor I own the "Captain Marvel" run that we're 
looking to place them in, I'd say having to find one hole rather than two 
is much preferable.

> So I'm voting to shift "IA" back, like Tom suggested -- not that there 
was much of a reason AGAINST doing it.

Yeah, if you take at the NEW AND IMPROVED list I did, I incorporated Tom's 
other things with regard to IA and A:CQ.  There's a little more space between 
them now since IA has to occur AFTER the Defenders are cursed, but otherwise 
there's no significant issues to worry about.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Defenders' curse
Posted by Jeph! on August 17, 2002 at 13:15:22:
In Reply to: Re: More on "Sweet Charity", and a lil on "Infinity Abyss".
posted by SKleefeld on August 17, 2002 at 10:21:55:

> Yeah, if you take at the NEW AND IMPROVED list I did, I incorporated Tom's 
other things with regard to IA and A:CQ.  There's a little more space between 
them now since IA has to occur AFTER the Defenders are cursed, but otherwise 
there's no significant issues to worry about.

Since I'm too lazy to actually find the list, I'll razz you about it here:

Did you remember to put "IA" after D2 #2-4?  Those are the first issues where 
they actually DISCOVER they're cursed...

Whee!

	-Jeph!
off to spend his Saturday NOT doing comic stuff, dammit

			*	*	*

Re: And I thought we were done with this!
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 15, 2002 at 04:03:21:
In Reply to: Re: And I thought we were done with this!
posted by SKleefeld on August 14, 2002 at 20:41:03:

> > So where to place Sweet Charity?

> Out of continuity?  :)

It didn't read to me like a story which was intended to be in continuity.

In the thirty seconds I glanced at it before putting it back on the shelf 
with a grimace.

			*	*	*

Re: The Kang War, New and Improved
Posted by wonderfly on August 14, 2002 at 12:49:06:
In Reply to: Re: The Kang War, New and Improved
posted by Tom Brevoort on August 13, 2002 at 21:38:17:

> One other note: IRON MAN #46-48 absolutely occur after AVENGERS: ULTRON 
IMPERATIVE--they have to, it's too important to the content of both stories. 
So you'll just have to chalk Hank Pym momentarily wearing his Goliath costume 
as a one day abberation--maybe his Yellowjacket suit was in the wash. 

> In cases like this, I'd always advise basing placement on what harms the 
majority of the story least. It's no big deal for Hank to have on his Goliath 
duds for a couple of panels, but it is a big deal for Antigone to figure into 
the climax of a story that you're chronologically placing before her origin.

Yeah, I suppose we could claim that his Yellowjacket suit was at the 
drycleaners that day.  It makes more sense, and it's funny to boot.  

			*	*	*

Appearances by Access
Posted by Matt on August 13, 2002 at 17:03:30:

I was wondering if someone could help me with something. A while back prior 
to the Unlimited Access limited series, Marvel and DC were to have their 
shared character in a Marvel book and a DC book as a way to build-up to the 
series. The DC book was Green Lantern #87, where Access ran into GL's 
girlfriend Jade, but what was the Marvel book he popped up in?

			*	*	*

Re: Appearances by Access
Posted by Jeph! on August 13, 2002 at 18:40:44:
In Reply to: Appearances by Access
posted by Matt on August 13, 2002 at 17:03:30:

It never happened.  Go Marvel.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Appearances by Access
Posted by Matt on August 13, 2002 at 21:04:09:
In Reply to: Re: Appearances by Access
posted by Jeph! on August 13, 2002 at 18:40:44:

Are you sure? I heard it was in an issue of the Silver Surfer.

			*	*	*

Re: Appearances by Access
Posted by JLH on August 19, 2002 at 02:01:18:
In Reply to: Re: Appearances by Access
posted by Matt on August 13, 2002 at 21:04:09:

It was SUPPOSED to be, but Marvel never got around to it. I have all of the 
issues of SS at that time, and he never ended up appearing anywhere (though, 
to be fair, Access more or less makes a cameo in the "Green Lantern/ Silver 
Surfer" crossover book that came out just prior to the original DC/Marvel).

JLH

			*	*	*

Re: Appearances by Access
Posted by Matt on August 20, 2002 at 15:37:44:
In Reply to: Re: Appearances by Access
posted by JLH on August 19, 2002 at 02:01:18:

Didn't he also make a cameo appearance in the Batman/Spider-Man one-shot?

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Re: Appearances by Access
Posted by Jeph! on August 20, 2002 at 23:48:17:
In Reply to: Re: Appearances by Access
posted by Matt on August 20, 2002 at 15:37:44:

No.  No, he did not.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Appearances by Access
Posted by Antonio Gavio on August 24, 2002 at 03:08:56:
In Reply to: Re: Appearances by Access
posted by Jeph! on August 20, 2002 at 23:48:17:

He doesn't appear there but in Unlimited Access #1 he mentions just sorting 
out "the whole Spider-Man--Batman--Kingping--Ra's Al Ghul mess": he then 
adds: "they won't even know I was there". Which I guess makes it a behind 
the scenes appearance. 

			*	*	*

Re: Appearances by Access
Posted by Jeph! on August 24, 2002 at 12:02:02:
In Reply to: Re: Appearances by Access
posted by Antonio Gavio on August 24, 2002 at 03:08:56:

Except that neither Kingpin nor Ra's Al Ghul were the villains in the 
"Spider-Man/Batman" comic.  It was the Joker, and someone from Spidey's 
rogue's gallery, I forget who.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Appearances by Access
Posted by Matt on August 24, 2002 at 14:29:35:
In Reply to: Re: Appearances by Access
posted by Jeph! on August 24, 2002 at 12:02:02:

They used Carnage for the Spider-Man/Batman one-shot, but you forgot that 
Marvel and DC had a second team-up with the two heroes, and that one was 
called "Batman/Spider-Man", and that featured Kingpin and Ra's Al Ghul as 
the villains.

			*	*	*

Re: Appearances by Access
Posted by Jeph! on August 24, 2002 at 14:57:33:
In Reply to: Re: Appearances by Access
posted by Matt on August 24, 2002 at 14:29:35:

Yep -- I sure did forget that.  Sorry, I guess we were thinking of two 
different books!

By the way, was the Spidey in "Batman/Spider-Man" the clone, or the original?

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Appearances by Access
Posted by Matt on August 24, 2002 at 15:36:52:
In Reply to: Re: Appearances by Access
posted by Jeph! on August 24, 2002 at 14:57:33:

It was the original in both crossovers. The only time Ben Reilly ever met 
anybody from the DCU was in the Marvel vs. DC limited series.

			*	*	*

Re: Appearances by Access
Posted by Antonio Gavio on August 25, 2002 at 21:12:39:
In Reply to: Re: Appearances by Access
posted by Matt on August 24, 2002 at 14:29:35:

Access makes another behind the scenes appearance in the Superman/Fantastic 
Four crossover. Superman mentions needing Access before going to Marvel Earth 
to find Galactus. 

			*	*	*

Question about Sue Richards pregnancy--related to discussion of Kang War 
chronology...
Posted by Kevin  on August 14, 2002 at 14:15:08:

Hello,

I have a question about this timetable given in another post.  You list, (I 
believe) Sue Richards becoming pregnant in FF #49.  You list her having the  
baby in FF#54.  All this takes place between A #42 and A #45 basically.  So 
basically 9 months passes between the early opening salvo's of the Kang War?  
Isn't that a little much, considering ( I think it says) in the first issue 
of the New Cap. America series, Sept. 11th happens, and then the story cuts 
to 7 months later, (which you take to mean after the whole Kang War has 
passed).  

Now I've not read FF49, where Sue becomes pregnant, but it is my understanding 
that it is mystical in nature in how she gets pregnant.  I also show your 
concerned about all these "Sue doesn't look pregnant" appearances.  So, tell 
me, did Sue wake up in FF49 and have a big belly, cause if not, why not just  
say that all these "Sue doesn't look pregnant" appearances happened in the 
early stages of her pregnancy, before she started showing?  You know, some 
women don't start showing a big belly till the 5 or 6th month of pregnancy, 
(from what I've seen in real life).

			*	*	*

Re: Question about Sue Richards pregnancy--related to discussion of Kang War 
chronology...
Posted by SKleefeld on August 14, 2002 at 15:03:45:
In Reply to: Question about Sue Richards pregnancy--related to discussion of 
Kang War chronology...
posted by Kevin  on August 14, 2002 at 14:15:08:

You actually hit the nail on the head. Almost. 

Near the end of FFv3 #49, the Marvel reality was "reset" and Sue walked onto 
the roof looking very pregnant, much to the surprise of her husband! What 
evidently happened was that Franklin essentially lifted her last pregnancy 
from back in the Byrne days and dropped the unborn child in Sue's womb in the 
present. So, Sue skipped right to the last term of her pregnancy almost 
instantly in #49 and we don't have to worry too much about how much time 
passes between then and #54.

THAT'S why we have to shove all of Sue's non-pregnant appearances on either 
side of those two FF issues.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Question about Sue Richards pregnancy--related to discussion of Kang War 
chronology...
Posted by Kevin on August 17, 2002 at 11:03:09:
In Reply to: Re: Question about Sue Richards pregnancy--related to discussion 
of Kang War chronology...
posted by SKleefeld on August 14, 2002 at 15:03:45:

Then that makes sense then. I'm going to be buying some back issues of FF 
now, and I guess I should have waited to post that question until after I 
read that issue.  Otherwise, I'd say your list of chronology looks fine.

			*	*	*

Re: Question about Sue Richards pregnancy
Posted by Jeph! on August 14, 2002 at 18:18:16:
In Reply to: Question about Sue Richards pregnancy--related to discussion of 
Kang War chronology...
posted by Kevin  on August 14, 2002 at 14:15:08:

> So, tell me, did Sue wake up in FF49 and have a big belly?

Yes.

I'm sorry.  I know Sean already answered you.  I just had to say it.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

PETER CORBEAU...CORRUPTOR...COTTONMOUTH
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 15, 2002 at 17:42:13:

new entries marked **

CORBEAU, DR. PETER

UX 158
**AWC@ 5/2
WM2 7

CORRUPTOR/JACKSON DAY/"ANDREW KAPPELHOF"

H2 265
**M/CP 32/4
NO2 9

COTTONMOUTH II/QUINCY MCIVER

CA 365/2
**CA 367
CA 380

			*	*	*

Hulk's current incarnation
Posted by Matt on August 15, 2002 at 19:48:06:

Which incarnation is Bruce Jones currently using for in the Hulk series, 
and how does it properly fit into continuity? 

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Re: Hulk's current incarnation
Posted by SKleefeld on August 16, 2002 at 07:46:43:
In Reply to: Hulk's current incarnation
posted by Matt on August 15, 2002 at 19:48:06:

Jones has mostly been using Bruce Banner, and we've seen very little of 
the Hulk. The Hulk we have seen is the more classic "Hulk smash" persona.

As to how it fits in with continuity, basically the entirety of Jones' run 
can be dropped in after Defenders, The Order and the Kang War. See the end 
of the Kang War list a few threads earlier for specifics.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Hulk's current incarnation
Posted by Matt on August 16, 2002 at 12:58:35:
In Reply to: Re: Hulk's current incarnation
posted by SKleefeld on August 16, 2002 at 07:46:43:

How do you know it's the Savage Hulk? He hasn't said a word since the 
beginning of Jones' run. It could just be the Professor being the strong 
and silent type.

			*	*	*

Re: Hulk's current incarnation
Posted by SKleefeld on August 16, 2002 at 15:39:59:
In Reply to: Re: Hulk's current incarnation
posted by Matt on August 16, 2002 at 12:58:35:

Well, we don't know for certain since Hulk hasn't really said anything, 
true. But my reading of the stories is that we're dealing with a Hulk 
that doesn't have the mental faculties to deal with anything but with 
violence.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Hulk's current incarnation
Posted by Matt on August 17, 2002 at 16:47:51:
In Reply to: Re: Hulk's current incarnation
posted by SKleefeld on August 16, 2002 at 15:39:59:

Actually, I remember reading an article that was posted at 
www.incrediblehulk.com that said that Jones was using an entirely different 
incarnation of the Hulk, not any of the three "core" Hulks.

			*	*	*

Special Executive Info
Posted by John Mc Donagh on August 16, 2002 at 15:58:38:

  Thanks for the tip-off on the Special Executive.

Someone used it do a through account of their history.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/specex.htm

			*	*	*

How much time has passed since Heroes Return?
Posted by Kevin  on August 17, 2002 at 11:10:17:

All the talk of Christmas events in the Kang War thread got me thinking: 
How much time has passed since the Heroes Return event of late 1997?  That's 
when I really started reading Marvel comics again, ,( I find I was much like 
Russ, the guy who runs this site, in that I had to stop reading the books 
for close to a year before that...the story's were really dropping off).  

But anyway, is it possible to use the Christmas events since 1997 to tell 
how much time has passed? I remember the Uncanny X-men issue at (I believe 
the end of 1998) that was a Christmas Issue where Colossus saw his dead 
sister in a dream or something.  Very touching issue.  And of course we 
have the recent Cap #50 and other recent Christmas issues.  

Of course, Marvel time goes much slower than real time...so it's been nearly 
5 years since the Heroes Return event in real life, but does that mean that 
only 1 or 2 years has passed in the Marvel Universe?

			*	*	*

Re: How much time has passed since Heroes Return?
Posted by Jhaeman on August 17, 2002 at 11:35:16:
In Reply to: How much time has passed since Heroes Return?
posted by Kevin  on August 17, 2002 at 11:10:17:

I agree with our fellows that the recent Christmas stories are a good way 
to order things and make sense, but I am also wary of trying to use such 
events to count the "amount of time" that has passed.  For example, if we 
went through and found all of the special Christmas issues for Spider-Man 
and added them together, Peter Parker would be about 50 years old :) 
(although, many of them could take place at just a few holidays) As has 
been noted, working with topical references must be done very carefully 
or the Marvel Universe begins to collapse--for example, Marvel comics that 
have a cameo of Regan or Carter can't really have taken place several years 
ago in the lives of the characters.

			*	*	*

This is a bit off-topic but...
Posted by Matt on August 17, 2002 at 16:56:33:
In Reply to: Re: How much time has passed since Heroes Return?
posted by Jhaeman on August 17, 2002 at 11:35:16:

Remember when Ben Reilly briefly took Peter's place as Spider-Man? When Ben 
took the mantle it was just before Christmas 1995 (according to Sensational 
Spider-Man #1 and Spider-Man Holiday Special 1995). Around that same time, 
Mary Jane was about a month or two into her pregancy.

Now, when Ben died fighting the Green Goblin, and Mary Jane was in her final 
stages of pregnancy (and giving birth), it was Halloween of 1996. Wouldn't 
that mean that Mary Jane was pregnant for 11 months?!

			*	*	*

Re: This is a bit off-topic but...
Posted by Jeph! on August 17, 2002 at 22:39:56:
In Reply to: This is a bit off-topic but...
posted by Matt on August 17, 2002 at 16:56:33:

SILENCE THIS MAN!!!

::meaty Marvel execs wrestle him to the ground, ether-soaked rags at the 
ready::

George Olevshky (looking up from the nylon ropes he's binding Matt's hands 
with):  "Topical reference."

::In the background, radiation troopers spray the MCP board with foam as 
the area is walled off...::

	-Jeph!
I don't know what's gotten into me tonight

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Re: This is a bit off-topic but...
Posted by Matt on August 18, 2002 at 00:40:02:
In Reply to: Re: This is a bit off-topic but...
posted by Jeph! on August 17, 2002 at 22:39:56:

I guess you're saying is that I shouldn't point out such a big continuity 
goof, right Jeph?

			*	*	*

Re: This is a bit off-topic but...
Posted by Jeph! on August 18, 2002 at 00:46:15:
In Reply to: Re: This is a bit off-topic but...
posted by Matt on August 18, 2002 at 00:40:02:

Oh no, point it out all you want, but in my mind things like this aren't 
"continuity GOOFS" -- they're not in the same ballpark as "well, crap, I 
used Tigra in this crossover, despite her being insane and stuck in cat-form 
in the main book at the time".  THAT'S a "goof".

What you're pointing out is simply the unfortunate result of Marvel time 
crossing over with real time.  Some genius decided on a Christmas-themed 
issue and a different genius decided on a Hallowe'en-themed issue, but Mary 
Jane herself will tell you that she was only pregnant for nine months or 
less.

I just chalk it up under "oh well" and move on.  But, from time to time, 
it really is fun to pull things like this out and display 'em.  I was just 
having fun with the "silence that man" bit -- no offense meant.  ;)

	-Jeph!

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Re: This is a bit off-topic but...
Posted by Matt on August 18, 2002 at 15:38:56:
In Reply to: Re: This is a bit off-topic but...
posted by Jeph! on August 18, 2002 at 00:46:15:

None taken.

-Matt

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Re: How much time has passed since Heroes Return?
Posted by Kevin  on August 20, 2002 at 12:32:51:
In Reply to: Re: How much time has passed since Heroes Return?
posted by Jhaeman on August 17, 2002 at 11:35:16:

Well, if you don't use Christmas events, one could theoritically use all 
these mentions of time passing in comic books to gauge how much time has 
passed.  Take the latest issue of Daredevil.  It starts off with a fight 
between Spidey, Daredevil vs. Mr. Hyde. Then the story cuts to, in it's 
own words, "Three weeks later".  Can't we use all these type of references 
to real time to tell how much time has passed? 

Because I hear that Marvel time passes 1 year for every 5 years of real 
life.  And it's been 5 years since Heroes Reborn. But an awful lot has 
happened, and I think you couldn't squeeze all this in in one year. Maybe 
2 to 2.5 years, or even better 3, but not 1.  

Or would trying to chronical time's passing in the Marvel Universe, would 
that cause a person's brain to explode? 

			*	*	*

Cable/Soldier X is another example
Posted by Matt on August 20, 2002 at 16:25:29:
In Reply to: Re: How much time has passed since Heroes Return?
posted by Kevin  on August 20, 2002 at 12:32:51:

When Cable's series ended and was rebooted as Soldier X it started with the 
issue opening up 2 years later since the last issue of Cable. Now, I don't 
know how this will affect continuity in the long run, but if any major heroes 
such as Wolverine and Hulk show up, will the writer of Soldier X reveal 
anything that will be happening to them two years down the road in their own 
series? I hope I'm making some amount of sense.

			*	*	*

Re: Cable/Soldier X is another example
Posted by Jeph! on August 20, 2002 at 23:59:04:
In Reply to: Cable/Soldier X is another example
posted by Matt on August 20, 2002 at 16:25:29:

> When Cable's series ended and was rebooted as Soldier X it started with 
the issue opening up 2 years later since the last issue of Cable.

I get the feeling that this is one of those gaps that will eventually get 
evened out, leaving "Soldier X" running concurrent with real Marvel time.

I mean, the X-Men had a six-month gap between #99 and #100 -- and yet, 
eventually they were back to normal, right in sync with the Avengers and 
stuff, just like they were before the gap.

X-Force had TWO six-month gaps -- one between #101-102, and one between 
#113-114.  And yet the team's appearance in "New" X-Force #117, and 
Cannonball's appearances in X #128-130, show that this second gap has been 
"absorbed" by Marvel-Time as well.

I'm currently doing a chronology integrating the X-Men stuff with the latest 
Kang War list, and I've been able (in fact, I had to) to place all of Cable's 
adventures from #97-107 as happening BEFORE New X-Men #114.  Pushing Cable 
#107 back like that already helps deal with some of that two-year gap.  And 
since I don't think we're going to have ANY Marvel Universe crossovers in 
Soldier X (except Joe Robertson), it won't be too hard to just delay Robbie's 
XS appearance in his chronology until an appropriate timeframe presents 
itself.

My view is, it's not so much that "SX" is in the future, so much as that all 
of "Cable" took place in the past.  I'd say, out of Cable's missing two years, 
it's already been about eight or nine months as Marvel Time goes.

> will the writer of Soldier X reveal anything that will be happening to them 
two years down the road in their own series? I hope I'm making some amount of 
sense.

He'll probably write them as their present-day selves -- which will confuse 
us for a while, then we'll get over it.

	-Jeph!
already over it

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Re: How much time has passed since Heroes Return?
Posted by Stefan Anundi on February 21, 2003 at 07:57:41:
In Reply to: Re: How much time has passed since Heroes Return?
posted by Jhaeman on August 17, 2002 at 11:35:16:

Well, I use the 4 years in real life, one year in the Marvel Universe rule 
of thumb. That goes fairly well with Spider-Man anyway in my own head. About 
40 years from the first issue, and Peter being about 15 when he got bitten 
will make him about (40/4=) 10 years older now, placing him somewhere in his 
mid-twenties. :-)

And I ignore all references to major holidays and real life presidents in 
the comis, because that would make the aging on the comic characters too 
weird. Then they would all seem to have Wolverine's age repelling healing 
powers...

			*	*	*

Talking About Time
Posted by BobMM on August 20, 2002 at 13:07:09:
In Reply to: How much time has passed since Heroes Return?
posted by Kevin on August 17, 2002 at 11:10:17:

As a reader since the 60's, I've had to develop my own idea about the 
passing of time. 

The passage of time occurs differently in the MU than in our world, and 
is experienced and reckoned differently. We can never completely understand 
how time is experienced in the MU.

This is similar to the strange laws of physics in the MU. On the surface 
gravity, thermodynamics and whatnot seem to behave the same as in our world. 
However there are numerous examples of events occurring that are clearly 
impossible given our universe's physical laws. Many of these examples manifest 
themselves as super-powers!

So I take Marvel time as given. If a story references Jimmy Carter, then it 
occurred when Carter was President and it wasn't just some President, it was 
Carter himself. If The Thing has only aged a year or two in the twenty 
calendar years since that story was published well, that's just the way people 
age in the MU.

We suspend disbelief in so much else in order to enjoy comics, there is no 
reason to insist that time and aging follow our rules.

			*	*	*

CROSSBONES...CYPHER...MARGO DAMIAN
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 19, 2002 at 09:14:57:

new entires marked **

CROSSBONES/BROCK "BING" RUMLOW

CA 383/4
**CA 360
CA 362
.
.
.
CA 395
**CA 396
CA 399/2

CYPHER/DOUG RAMSEY
NM 61
NM@ 6/2
XCAL:P
**NM 64   -- body in coffin

DAMIAN, MARGO
E 8
** E 9
E 10

			*	*	*

eXiles... Blink's team
Posted by Peter Lin on August 20, 2002 at 21:45:53:

A relative new Marvel fan (only started picking up comics in '98, post Heroes 
Reborn), I wasn't aware that there were other "eXiles" (i.e. other than 
Blink's dimension-travelling team).

In a "closing the gap" section, there's a vacancy for Exiles. Is this referring 
to the current Exiles? or the Ultraverse Exiles?

Any help here is much appreciated.

			*	*	*

Shotgun II &amp; III correction
Posted by JLH on August 21, 2002 at 08:37:05:

SHOTGUN II/WALKER is actually the same character as the one listed as "SHOTGUN 
III". His debut issues from Daredevil in 1989 are also missing. Here's how his 
listing should look, roughly (give or take an issue or two).

SHOTGUN II/"JUNIOR" WALKER
DD272 (first appearance)
DD273
PWZ 1
PWZ 2
PWZ 3
PWZ 4
PWZ 5
PWZ 6
PWJ 80
S-M '97
ASM 432
S-M 89
PPTSS 255

			*	*	*

Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 21, 2002 at 16:20:16:

I would like to commend Sean and Jeph on their monumental efforts to sort 
out the events of various Marvel titles surrounding the Kang War and place 
them all in a chronology.  You have to admire the dedication and attention 
to detail!

Guys, you've inspired me to take my own stab at this, so here it is.  I've 
left in Sean's references and have noted my own comments and changes with 
double asterisks (**).  It's not quite complete, but I've spent long enough 
on it -- time to share.

As you can see, I've tried to put all this on a calendar with tons of temporal 
references.

I apologize for the formatting.  It looks fine in my WordPerfect document, 
but when pasted here the document doesn't look so great.

Paul
____________________________

** SEPTEMBER**
The events of Maximum Security are winding down as we enter the month.

Captain America v4 #1 (flashback) -- September 11
** The flashback within this flashback occurs the day before  September 10.  
This flashback occurs seven months before CA4 1, which occurs on Easter.**

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36 -- September 11. Note that Kingpin is not blinded 
yet and Hawkeye is not imprisoned. Coupled with the "introduction" we're led 
to believe this is SEVERELY out of publication order. While there was some 
debate initially to it's canonicity, the flashbacks in CAv4 #1 suggest that 
this is in continuity.
** Is Hawkeye likely to appear here in the short time between TB 49 and 50?**

Avengers v3 #38 ~ X-Men #111 -- Quicksilver leaves Genosha. Cap interviewed 
about Magneto.
** Occurring six weeks after A3 37, A3 38 is supposed to occur in winter, 
but it features unseasonably warm and sunny weather in New York.  Maybe we 
should just ignore the winter reference and go with the warm and sunny 
reference.**

Avengers v3 #39
Avengers v3 #40
** A3 39-40 occur the same day as A3 38.**

Thunderbolts #50
** This story occurs over the course of two days shortly after TB 49 (one 
week before CVATVB 1) and then two days later (a week before TB 51).  The 
end is only a couple of weeks before TB 54.  Cap becomes mentor to the 
Redeemers and serves in this capacity through TB 52.**

** Fantastic Four v3 #38**
** Fantastic Four v3 #39**
Fantastic Four v3 #40
** Judging from the news coverage of the return of the Baxter Building in 
FF3 40, Id say that FF3 40 continues from FF3 38-39.**

Fantastic Four v3 #41
Fantastic Four v3 #42
Fantastic Four v3 #43
Fantastic Four v3 #44
** FF3 40-44 occur over the course of one day.**

Fantastic Four v3 #45 Namorita appears. She becomes one of the minor hinges 
throughout our listing.
** My impression is that this issue occurs during the two days following FF3 
44 and several days after that.**

Avengers: Celestial Quest #1 -- From Tom Brevoort: "AVENGERS: CELESTIAL QUEST 
#1-8 occur between AVENGERS #40 & #41."
Avengers: Celestial Quest #2 -- Thor, Firebird, Silverclaw, Vision, and 
Scarlet Witch leave the Avengers Mansion for space and remain in space until 
sometime after A:CQ #8. Iron Man could well be simultaneously busy in his own 
series, accounting for his non-appearance here.
Avengers: Celestial Quest #3 
Avengers: Celestial Quest #4
Avengers: Celestial Quest #5 
Avengers: Celestial Quest #6
Avengers: Celestial Quest #7 
Avengers: Celestial Quest #8 
** These eight issues occur over the course of a couple of days.  It is 
supposed to be five years after A 128, but it must be quite a bit longer.  
Dont get me started on the overall passage of Marvel Time.**

Iron Man v3 #40
** Im assuming that this is just the end portion of this issue, which occurs 
a few weeks after the beginning. (The beginning continues directly from IM3 
37-39.)**

[**MOVED**] Thunderbolts #51
** A week after the last day of TB 50.**

[**MOVED**] Citizen V and the V-Battalion #1
** One week after the second day of TB 50.**
[**MOVED**] Citizen V and the V-Battalion #2
[**MOVED**] Citizen V and the V-Battalion #3
[**MOVED**] Thunderbolts #52
[**MOVED**] Thunderbolts: Life Sentences
** These stories continue from CVATVB 1 and occur over the course of a few 
days, all told.  I would probably put the order as CVATVB 2, TB 52, CVATVB 3, 
TBLS, and CVATVB 3.  Theres a full moon in TB:LS.**

** Captain America v3 #41**
** Captain America v3 #42**
** Captain America v3 #43**
** Captain America v3 #44**
** CA2 41-44 occur over the course of two days.  Ca3 41 occurs weeks after 
CA3 37.  In CA3 44, Taskmaster refers to the Avengers raiding his operations, 
which we see in A3 38, so I place CA3 41-44 after CA3 38.  The full moon may 
be the same as that in TB:LS; if so, CA3 41-44 must occur right after TB 52, 
the end of Caps stint as mentor to the Redeemers.**

Iron Man v3 #41 -- Debut of IM's retro armor. IM's armor is a major hinge 
throughout the list.
** It is a few short weeks before IM3 42.  Coney Island is open.**

Defenders v2 #1 -- Iron Man seen on a TV screen wearing his retro armor.
** This must be a reference to only the end portion of this issue, which 
occurs three weeks after the beginning.**

Defenders v2 #2 -- Namorita appears fighting Attuma. While it is implied that 
Attuma kicks her butt during this issue, the chronology simply can't hold up 
with all of her appearances in FFv3. Jeph and I have taken with the assumption 
that she actually escapes Attuma here, only to be captured shortly before 
Defenders #5.
** It is a few weeks after the flashback in this issue and at least a few 
months after the end of Nighthawk #3.  It is months before Def2 11.**

Defenders v2 #3
** The same night as Def2 2, and six months after the flashback in this 
issue.**

Defenders v2 #4
** The same night as Def2 3.**

Infinity Abyss #1 -- Goliath appears. Another note from Tom: "Likewise, 
INFINITY ABYSS #1-6 occur between AVENGERS #40 & #41, and after CELESTIAL 
QUEST."
Infinity Abyss #2 -- The Defenders are clearly cursed here, putting in the 
midst of their series.
Infinity Abyss #3
Infinity Abyss #4
Infinity Abyss #5
Infinity Abyss #6
** IA occurs over the course of a day.  Green grass and trees are seen in 
upstate New York in this series, so it must be before the fall colors kick 
in.**

** OCTOBER **

Fantastic Four Annual 2001 -- Namorita appears.
** This reference is to the first story in this issue, which occurs shortly 
after the second story.**

** X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001 (first story)**
** One day, weeks after XXM 4, which was part of a storyline that occurred 
in summer.  There are green grass and trees in Sydney, where it is probably 
spring.**

Avengers v3 #41 -- IM appears in retro armor. It's expressly mentioned that 
Stark is in hiding. While this would imply it occurs after the events of IMv3 
#42, Stark is still wearing his goatee here. He picks up the Hogan Potts 
identity later. Kang also blows up the UN building.
Avengers v3 #42 -- IM in retro armor. Attuma now appears to rule Atlantis, 
as suggested by the earlier Defenders stories.
** A3 41-42 occur on a weekend day, perhaps Saturday.**

Fantastic Four v3 #46 -- Here, we have a reference to the UN having just 
blown up. Namorita makes an appearance.
** This issue picks up right where the first story in FF 2001 left off, with 
the reference to the Galactus head having just been dumped in Manhattan.  The 
U.N. demolition has, indeed, just occurred as well, making the stories in FF3 
and A3 closely knit.**

Fantastic Four v3 #47 
Fantastic Four v3 #48 
Fantastic Four v3 #49 -- The Inivisible Woman becomes pregnant. Galactus 
returns to the Marvel continuum. Namorita makes another appearance.
** FF3 46-49 probably occur during the course of a day, the same day as A3 
41-42.**

Avengers v3 #43 -- This is said to expressly lead into A@ 2001.
** A3 43 continues directly from A3 42 and so occurs the same day as FF3 
47-49.**

** Avengers v3 #44**
** Still the same day.  See below.**

Avengers Annual 2001 -- Hank Pym is cured of his multiple-personalities.
** Full moon here.**

Avengers v3 #44 -- Specifically occurs right after A@ 2001. Pym appears in 
his Goliath uniform. The Goliath/Yellowjacket dilemma was the biggest problem 
for Jeph and I. This is a major hinge for our chronology.
** Given the flow of action in these issues, Id say that A2001 occurs within 
A3 44 rather than between A3 43 and 44.  At the end of A3 44, were probably 
in the morning after the U.N. destruction and Galactus head incidents.**

Iron Man v3 #42 -- Tony Stark is puttering around with armor modifications.
** It is a few short weeks after IM3 41, and so it is probably October.**

Iron Man v3 #43 -- Stark meets Goliath in an essentially empty (except for 
Jarvis) Avengers Mansion.
Iron Man v3 #44 -- Here we have the introduction of Stark's transitional 
armor. It actually is being slightly modified throughout IM's various 
appearances until Grell and Ryan introduce a new version in IMv3 #50.
Iron Man v3 #45
** IM3 43-45 continue from IM3 42 and occur during the next few days.**

Iron Man Annual 2001 
** Again, two stories in this annual: the first occurring over the course of 
two days; the second during a single day.  My guess is that the second story 
occurs first  the day after the end of IM3 45.**

Fantastic Four v3 #50 (**first story**) -- Namorita appears.
** This is a reference only to the first story in this issue.  (The second 
story is non-canon; in the third and fourth stories, Sue is not pregnant, so 
these stories are placed elsewhere.)  It is the anniversary of the Fantastic 
Four, which would place this story in the same month as FF 1 and FF 296 (and 
that means Ill need to do some recalculating).  We see green trees and warm 
weather in New York.**

Defenders v2 #5 -- Namorita is shown a captive of Attuma at this point. With 
her numerous FFv3 appearances, we have to place her capture behind-the-scenes 
shortly after FFv3 #50.
** Green trees again.**

Defenders v2 #6 -- Bruce Banner appears, still afflicted with ALS.
** Same night as Def2 5; several daysbefore Def2 8.**

Defenders v2 #7
** Same night as Def2 6.**

.

Avengers: the Ultron Imperative -- OK, this is the first appearance of Hank 
Pym as Yellowjacket. On the surface, dialogue would imply that his first 
appearance as YJ is Av3 #45, but I'll touch on that later. Iron Man is also 
using his classic armor here, stating that he is doing some additional 
tinkering on his normal armor.
** One night and the next day.  Hawkeye is given a temporary release from 
Seagate Prison to participate in this adventure.  Unseen Wanda thought 
balloon: Hmm. Hanks wearing his Yellowjacket costume.  Thats odd.  Well, 
maybe his Goliath costume is in the wash.  I wont pry.**

Captain America v3 #45 (flashback) -- Iron Man is still in his classic armor, 
so we're presuming he hasn't gotten back to the lab yet.
Captain America v3 #46 (flashback) -- Here, however, we see Iron Man back in 
his transitional armor, with some visual modifications. Probably just artistic 
license, but we can get it to work with the story anyway!
Captain America v3 #47 (flashback)
Captain America v3 #48 (flashback) 
Captain America v3 #45 -- We learn that it only takes 5 days from the 
flashback in CAv3 #45 until now. Not much time for other stuff in between.
Captain America v3 #46
Captain America v3 #47 -- Namor remarks that he hasn't reclaimed Atlantis 
yet.
Captain America v3 #48 
** Actually, CA3 45-FB begins six days before CA3 45, and the total time 
span from the start of CA3 45 through CA3 48 is seven days.**

Incredible Hulk v3 #30 -- Bruce Banner is all-but-dead from ALS.
Incredible Hulk v3 #31
Incredible Hulk v3 #32 -- Banner is cured of ALS by Ant-Man and Mr. Fantastic. 
Thing and She-Hulk cameo. With Jennifer's world-trotting from China to France 
to NYC, we tried to keep this appearance relatively close to her other NYC 
appearance in FFv3 #50.
** I dont have these issues, so no comment.**

Fantastic Four v3 #51 
Fantastic Four v3 #52 
Fantastic Four v3 #53 
Fantastic Four v3 #54 -- The Invisible Woman gives birth. We've had to put 
just about all of Sue's appearance outside of this mark because she's shown 
clearly non-pregnant.
** These issues occur over the course of two days, while the Stern Academy is 
in session.  There are green trees in New York and a full moon in FF3 53 and 
54.  Franklin is only seven, which just cant be right. (I still contend 
that Franklins reality-warping powers are causing him to remain eternally 
young and are preventing anyone from even noticing!).**

Black Panther #34 -- Appearance of the cursed Defenders.
Black Panther #35

Hulk #33 

Black Panther #38 -- Note that BPv2 #36-37 are not in continuity.
Black Panther #39 
Black Panther #40 -- Iron First regains his powers, justifying Graviton's 
taking him out later in Thunderbolts.

Defenders v2 #8 
** The main body of this issue occurs the day after the flashback in this 
issue and several daysafter Def2 6.**

Defenders v2 #9 
Defenders v2 #10 -- A non-pregnant Invisible Woman makes an appearance.
** Def2 9-10 occur the same day as Def2 8.**

** Fantastic Four v3 #50 (third story)**
** Sue is not pregnant here, so I place this story after FF3 54.  It may make 
sense for this celebrity auction to occur before Tony Stark reveals that he is 
Iron Man.  And since Ben seems unsure about how to handle himself, this 
auction probably predates the one in Sweet Charity.**

[**MOVED**] Captain America v3 #49
** One day.  We see falling leaves in New York and jacket weather in Idaho.  
Because of this reference, and to move this before CA3 50 stories that Ive 
moved (below), Ive repositioned this issue on the list.**

** [MOVED] Captain America v3 #50 (second story)**
** Green grass and trees in Arlington National Cemetery.**

** [MOVED] Captain America v3 #50 (third story)**
** Cap and Sharon part ways in a story that must predate the death of Cap 
in the third story in CA3 50.  Green grass and trees in Maine.**

** [MOVED] Captain America v3 #50 (fourth story)
** Caps death.  (What was the whole point of this?)  We see green grass 
and warm camping weather.**

** [MOVED] Captain America v 3 #50 (fifth story)**
** News of Caps death spreads and we see a funeral that probably occurs 
several days later.  We see a non-pregnant Invisible Woman and Namor as 
sovereign of Atlantis.  Iron Man is not wearing the Grell-Ryan armor; hes 
in the transitional armor that lasted from IM3 44 through 49. Thor is in 
his classic costume, so this story should occur before T2 31, the storyline 
that leads to Odins death (and that storys reference to unusually early 
snowfall).  We see that the Beast is not cat-like, so this story occurs 
before X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #1 and New X-Men #114.  All these clues 
place this story before the Christmas of the first story in CA3 50.  Apparently 
those softies at Seagate granted Hawkeye leave to attend Caps funeral, 
although why they let him suit up is anyones guess.  Given this, Hawkeye 
would have to be here before TB 53, the day before his engineered escape 
from Seagate.  This would also mean that Cap dies while working with the 
Redeemers.  This may not disrupt the Redeemer program much if Caps never-
seen resurrection occurs within days.**

** X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #1**
** X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #2**
** X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #3**
** X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #4**
** This series occurs during one night and the next day.  It occurs between 
XXM 4 and 5, and since XXM 5 seems to follow close on the heels of New X-Men 
#116, I would contend that the cat-like Beast makes his first appearance here, 
before New X-Men #114.  This must occur after the fourth story in CA3 50.**

** NOVEMBER **

[**MOVED**] Iron Man v3 #46 -- Goliath cameos here. Now IMv3 #46-48 appear to 
run seamlessly, but the dialogue later in the story clearly indicates it is a 
sequel to the Ultron Imperative. The problem there is that Hank Pym appears in 
his Yellowjacket uniform throughout that story, so we are forced to break up 
this sequence in the only possible gap.
** Im inclined to go with Toms comment that the Yellowjacket costume was in 
the wash.  Its a lot easier to believe that than to fabricate an elaborate 
explanation for Ultron being in two places at once (although I must say, the 
explanation was inspired!).  My rule of thumb is to go for the easy solution 
and not manipulate plot.  Besides, dividing IM3 46 between pages 15 and 16 
means that it took em quite a while to examine Sun Tao, and they kept him in 
the armor the whole time!**

[**MOVED**] Iron Man v3 #47
[**MOVED**] Iron Man v3 #48
** Enough time needs to pass between A:UI and IM3 46-48 for Ultron to build 
his cult following.  Id reunite the parts of IM3 46 and move IM3 46-48 further 
down in the chronology.**

Defenders v2 #11 - Namor reclaims Atlantis.
** This story occurs months after Def2 2 and doesnt necessarily continue 
right from Def2 10.**

Iron Man v3 #49
** One day.**

[**MOVED**] Thunderbolts #53
** Caps back from the dead without fanfare or explanation.  It is only two 
days before TB 54, so this issue should be moved down closer to TB 54.**

Thunderbolts #54 
** It is two days after TB 53 and a couple of weeks (Id say more like a 
couple of months) after Clint Barton was put in prison, after the close of 
TB 50.**

Thunderbolts #55 
Thunderbolts #56 -- Graviton starts lifting cities into the sky.
Thunderbolts #57 -- Iron Man is still in his transitional armor. We have 
appearances by a non-pregnant Invisible Woman (after FFv3 #54), Namorita 
(after Dv2 #11), Iron Fist (after BPv2 #40) and Yellowjacket (after A:UI).
** Kang is in Damocles Base. Another unseen Wanda thought balloon: Okay, I 
know were all suspended in mid-air, but theres Hank with his Yellowjacket 
costume again.  Just what is up with that?**

Thunderbolts #58
Thunderbolts #59
** TB 54-59 all occur within the span of a day.**

** Thunderbolts #60**
** TB 60 occurs the same day as TB 59 and the following day.  Green trees in 
Pittsburgh.**

** Thunderbolts #61**
** TB 61 occurs the same day as the end of TB 60, four days later, and the 
day after that.**

** Thunderbolts #62**
** Same day as TB 61?**

** Thunderbolts #67 (flashback: page 5)**
** This flashback probably occurs days after the death of Meteorite III in 
TB 56.  It is established as occurring twelve weeks before TB 67.**

Avengers v3 #45 -- This issue was a sticking point for a long time. The 
dialogue strongly suggests this is the first time Wanda has seen Hank as 
Yellowjacket. Clearly, though, we have several Yellowjacket appearances 
before now, which were all necessary for a variety of other reasons. Allow 
me to explain by Yellowjacket's supposed debut here by re-presenting some 
of the original dialogue with my translations... 
** Very funny!  My take...Wanda thought balloon: Okay, three appearances 
now in that yellow-and-black bug outfit...I just have to know.  Im going 
to broach the topic.  I just hope I like what I hear.**

We also have Cap severly bandaged up throughout the issue. While the dialogue 
suggests this was from his being turned into a zombie, Jeph and I think it 
makes more sense if he got the injuries from a real explosion (CAv3 #50), 
rather than radiation (Av3 #44). 
** My explanation: in TB 58, while Graviton lowered the suspended heroes like 
snow, Cap got dropped hard.  Poor Cap just cant get a break  first he 
dies, now hes injured..**

It's also worth noting that the Master sends up his ring walls at the end of 
this issue, which "forces" the Kang War almost in it's entirety after 
Graviton's attack from Thunderbolts.

Avengers v3 #46
Avengers v3 #47
Avengers v3 #48 
** This issue occurs 72 hours after A3 45 and weeks before Av3 51.**

Avengers v3 #49 --Washington DC is nuked by Kang.
Avengers v3 #50
** A3 46-50 occur within the 96 hours the Avengers were given to stop Kang 
at the end of A3 45.**

Avengers v3 #51 
** This issue occurs during the span of two consecutive days,a few days 
later, and two nights after that.  It begins weeks after A3 48, so there 
must be a time gap between A3 50 and 51.  Wed be hard pressed to put other 
published stories in this gap, as Kang has conquered a good chunk of the world 
and there are no other references to this state of affairs in other titles.**

Avengers v3 #52
** Introduction of the Iron Mans Grell-Ryan armor.  Probably the day after 
the end of A3 51 and the day after that.  It is weeks after A3 50.  Theres 
a full moon in both A3 51 and 52.**

Avengers v3 #53
** The same day as the end of A3 52.**

Avengers v3 #54 -- Thor disappears at end of issue. 
** Still the same day.  This issue occurs three weeks before A3 55.**	

** New X-Men #114**
** New X-Men #115**
** New X-Men #116**
** The Beast makes his second cat-like appearance in these issues.  Scott and 
Jean have barely touched each other for five months; anyone want to check 
the last previous instance of intimacy?  The aftermath of Xaviers big 
revelation from New X-Men #116 is felt in the following issues of X-Treme and 
Uncanny, and I place them right after this.**

**X-Treme X-Men #5**
** Xaviers TV appearance from New X-Men #116 is rebroadcast here.**

**Uncanny X-Men #395**
**X-Treme X-Men #5**
**Uncanny X-Men #396**
**X-Treme X-Men #6**
**X-Treme X-Men #7**
**X-Treme X-Men #8**
**Uncanny X-Men #397**
**Uncanny X-Men #398**
** I figure these issues span around five days and we see full moons in both 
titles (although a crescent moon appears in XXM 6).**

** Thunderbolts #63**
** Thunderbolts #64 (pages 1-5)**
** TB 63 begins an undisclosed time after TB 62.  During this time it is 
possible for Kangs dominion over the world to occur while Hawkeye is on the 
lam and Songbird is tracking him.  It is one week before TB 64 pg. 5-9, two 
weeks before TB 64 pg. 10-20, three weeks before TB 65, and six weeks 
before TB 68.**

** Thunderbolts #64 (pages 5-9)**
** This segment begins one day one week after TB 64 pg. 1-5 and ends two 
days later.  The end comes twenty-seven hours before TB 64 pg. 10-20.**

** Thunderbolts #64 (pages 10-20)**
** This segment occurs twenty-seven hours  two days  after TB 64 pg. 6-9 
and two weeks after TB 64 pg. 1-5, so it must be one week before TB 65, 
three weeks before TB 66, and four weeks before TB 68.  Whew!**

**[MOVED]** Avengers v3 #55 -- Three weeks after Av3 #54. Thor returns. 
Rebuilding has been taking place; presumably, more vitally important command 
structures (like the White House) were worked on first.
** Ive moved this up on the list, as it likely occurs before the last page 
of T2 32.**

** Thunderbolts #65**
** This issue and the flashback within occur during the course of a day.  It 
is three weeks after TB 63, so it must be one week after TB 64 pg. 10-20 and 
two weeks before TB 66.**

** Thor v2 #32 (last page)**
** I propose that a time gap exists between the last two pages of this issue.  
All but the last page is linked to Maximum Security, which predates 9/11, and 
the last page starts us on a continuous ride that takes us to Odins death, 
which must postdate A3 55. It just takes a couple of months for Thor to get 
around to showing Beta Ray where Jake Olson lives.  A time gap is suggested 
in Thor 33 when Jake asks his mother to remember the events of Maximum 
Security; he notes that it happened a couple of weeks ago, but maybe hes 
talking Asgard time (see below).**

** Thor v2 #33**
** Snow in New York.  This snow may be natural, not the result of the casket 
of ancient winters from Thor #31.**

** Thor v2 #34**
** Snow again.** 
** Thor v2 #35**
** Thor v2 #36**
** Thor v2 #37**
** Thor v2 #38**
** Thor v2 #39**
** Thor v2 #40**
** Thor v2 #41**
**Only days before the first flashback in T2 45.**

** Thor v2 #42**
** All these issues form a continuous narrative of a couple of days that 
includes the death of Odin.** 

Peter Parker #37 -- It's snowing absurdly hard...
** And theres wind chill of -50 degrees!  Schools are closed because of the 
storm, so this story does not occur during the holiday/new year break.**

** DECEMBER **

** Thunderbolts #66**
** One day.  It is three weeks after TB 64 pg. 10-20, so it must be two 
weeks after TB 65 and one week before TB 68.**

** New X-Men Annual 2001**
** One day and the next day.  This story must occur during the time gap 
between NXM 116 and 117.**

** Thunderbolts #68**
** One day.  It is six weeks after TB 64 pg. 1-5, so it must be one week 
after TB 66.**

** New X-Men #117**
** One night.  It must be long enough after New X-Men #116 for mutants to 
gather and enroll at Xaviers.  We see bare and green trees and the weather 
seems mild.**

** New X-Men #118**
** It appears to be the day after issue #117 and the day after that.  The 
first day is a school day.  Again, we have green trees, bare trees, and mild 
weather.  Jean makes a reference to the events of New X-Men Annual 2001.**

** New X-Men #119**
** New X-Men #120**
** New X-Men #121**
** NXM 119-121 occur the same night as NXM 118.  Full moon.**

** Uncanny X-Men #399**
** One day.  The full moon may be the same one as in NXM 121.**

** Uncanny X-Men #400**
** Perhaps the day after UX 399.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.**

** New X-Men #122**
** Shortly after NXM 121.  We still see green grass and trees in 
Westchester.**

** X-Treme X-Men #9**
** One day. Given the events of NXM, it may be a month after XXM 8, during 
which time Sage has been catatonic.  Jean states that she gives her first 
press conference in a few hours.  That press conference happens in NXM 123.  
And, yup, we still see those green trees at Xaviers.  Maybe one of the new 
students there controls weather or plants??**

** New X-Men #123**
** New X-Men #124**
** New X-Men #125**
** New X-Men #126**
** NXM 123-126 occur the same day as XXM 9.  In issue #23 we see autumnal 
colors (at last but still a bit out of synch for placement here in December).**

** Captain Marvel v4 #22**
** Captain Marvel v4 #23**
** Captain Marvel v4 #24**
** Captain Marvel v4 #25**
** CM4 22-25 occur over the course of a day. Its almost Christmas.**

** Captain Marvel v4 #26**
** This story may occur on Christmas Eve.  The temperature drops from 61 
degrees to less than 49 degrees and there is snow.  Without clear 
chronological references, issues of CM4 other than 22-26 are difficult to 
place on a calendar or in relation to other titles.**

Iron Man v3 #50 (flashback) -- ... which is referenced here as well. It's 
also shown to be Christmas Eve. One more note from Tom: "Also, most of IRON 
MAN #50 occurs after the events of KANG DYNASTY. While the readers first see 
Tony don the new armor in IM #50, he actually first wears it in the closing 
chapters of the Kang War." Because of this, I've had to also move down PP 
#37 and CAv3 #50 (and #49) because of the snowing and XMas references. But 
we can now at least utilize some of the three week gap between Av3 #54 and 
#55.
**It is one week before the beginning of IM3 50.**

Captain America v3 #50 (**first story**)
**The stories in CA3 50 cannot appear in order.  The first story, which begins 
on Christmas Eve and spills into Christmas morning, must occur after all the 
other stories in this issue.**

** JANUARY **

Iron Man v3 #50 -- This occurs about one week after Christmas, according to 
the captions.
** There is a time gap within this story of (I would guess) several days.  
Iron Man appears in IM3 54-FB at the beginning of that gap.  There is snow.**

Peter Parker #38 -- Spidey vs mimes. Still got three weeks to fill... Besides, 
I want to highlight this issue because it's a REALLY funny story. So go buy a 
copy if you haven't already!
** Looks like warm weather in this story.  Maybe this can be pushed down the 
list.**

X-Treme X-Men #10
X-Treme X-Men #11 -- Given that we have the introduction of the Grell-Ryan 
armor so close before the Kang War proper, Khan's invasion almost has to 
occur afterwards. But since Thor makes an appearance here, we have to push 
it back until after his return in Av3 #55. Note also that the White House 
has been restored by this point.
** The most logical place for Thor to appear here (as well as in A3 56-FB) is 
between T3 42 and 43.  In T3 42, Thor overcomes his grief over Odins death 
and decides to turn his attentions to Asgard.  In T3 43, Tarene is charged 
with assuming Thors place on earth.  So my theory is that Thor returned to 
earth sometime between T2 42 and 43 to put some affairs in order, including 
taking a leave of absence from the Avengers, and while doing that reports of 
Khans invasion come pouring in.**

X-Treme X-Men #12
X-Treme X-Men #13
X-Treme X-Men #14
X-Treme X-Men #15
X-Treme X-Men #16
** X-Treme X-Men #17**
** These issues seem to take place over the course of two days.  Theres a 
full moon.*

** X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001 (second story)**
** One night.  Full moon, perhaps the same one as in XXM 10-17 and UX 401-407.  
This story must occur before the first story in XMU 36.*

** Uncanny X-Men #401**
** Uncanny X-Men #402**
** Uncanny X-Men #403**
** Uncanny X-Men #404**
** Uncanny X-Men #405**
** Uncanny X-Men #406**
** Uncanny X-Men #407**
** These issue span four days.  We see snow and a full moon (the same one in 
XXM 10-17?).**

Avengers v3 #56 (flashback) -- This story occurs before Thor has left to do 
the monarch bit in Asgard. Note that Iron Man's appearances in the flashback 
are not necessarily after his unmasking.
** Thor is still putting his earthly affairs in order here, very shortly after 
X-Treme X-Men #11.  He gets pulled into the battle with the Elements of Doom, 
and then returns to Asgard to assume the throne.  After this point, word 
spreads that Thor has assumed the throne of Asgard, so this flashback must 
occur before BP3 41.  Thors lack of beard and classic costume support this 
placement.  The Beasts cat-like appearance confirms that this flashback occurs 
after X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #1-4 and probably New X-Men #114-116.**

** Thor v2 #43**
** Preparations are being made for Odins funeral tomorrow.  Asgardian 
custom may dictate that a certain length of time pass between a death and a 
funeral, so this doesnt necessarily occur within days (at least earth days, 
see below) after T2 41.

** Thor v2 #44**
** Odins funeral, the day after T2 43, during which time Thor has grown a 
nice beard.  This makes me question whether a day on Asgard equals a day on 
earth.  Thor has not demonstrated the ability to grow a beard within an earth 
day; if he had, he would have had to take shaving breaks during any number of 
previous adventures to stay clean-shaven.  It is here that Thor sheds his 
classic costume, so all scenes showing that costume must occur before now 
(actually before T2 43).  It is barely a month before T2 45 and so its 
barely two weeks before the second flashback in T2 45.**

** Thor v2 #45 (first flashback)**
** This flashback occurs after T2 44 (no more classic Thor costume), but it 
cant occur only days after Odins death in T2 41 because of the number of 
stories that must intervene (mostly to explain the Beasts chronology).  Of 
course, the only days reference was made by Ggorgstog, an Asgardian.  The 
question again: is an Asgardian day the same length as a day on earth?  Im 
thinking that its a bit longer.  This flashback occurs before BP3 46.**

Defenders v2 #12 -- The Defenders becomes The Order. We had originally put 
this much earlier before the Kang War, but writer Kurt Busiek definitively 
said The Order comes after Av3 #55, which is why Thor does not appear in the 
series.
** There are two stories in Def2 12, with the Order spinning out of the 
second story.**

The Order #1
The Order #2
** Long enough after Order #1 for the Parringtons to set up a headquarters 
for the Defenders. Full moon here.**

The Order #3
** Order 2-3 occur during a single day.**

The Order #4
** Perhaps the day after Order 3, this issue depicts the first time the curse 
has transported the Order in over a week.**

The Order #5 
** Same day as Order 4.**

The Order #6 -- The Defenders curse is lifted.
** Same day as Order 5.**

Black Panther v3 #41 -- Iron Man appears in his Grell-Ryan armor, pushing 
this after the Kang War proper. We also saw that T'Challa was apparently on 
friendly terms with Iron Man during The Order, suggesting this storyline 
occurs after that one.
** Placement here is corroborated by Thors chronology.  See BP3 46 below.**

Black Panther v3 #42
** BP3 23 is referred to as having occurred last year, and that would be 
right considering were into a new year here.  Full moon  perhaps the same 
one as in Order #2.**

Black Panther v3 #43
** Uh oh!  Maybe its just the angle, but...is Sue Richards pregnant here on 
page 1?  If so, this messes everything up!  Maybe its just an unflattering 
pose...yeah, thats it.**

Black Panther v3 #44
Black Panther v3 #45 -- Black Panther and Iron Man accidentally put a large 
hole in the White House. Placing that incident here would help justify Wasp's 
pointing out the reconstruction in the as-yet-unreleased Av3 #57.
Black Panther v3 #46 
** It is shown that it is known that Thor has assumed the throne of Asgard, 
so BP3 41 must occur after the A3 56-FB.**

Black Panther v3 #47 
** The story in BP3 41-47 occur over the course of a couple of days.**

** Black Panther v3 #48**
** The story, which bounces back and forth with flashbacks, picks up from 
BP3 47, then occurs three days later and the following week.**

** Thor v2 #45 (second flashback)**
** It must be barely two weeks after T2 44 as it is two weeks before T2 45, 
which occurs barely a month after T2 44.**

** FEBRUARY **

Deadline #1 -- Given how little news is mentioned about world events, Jeph and 
I decided this series must occur some time after the Kang War. We also see 
reference to people questioning who's wearing the Captain America mask, 
suggesting it's before his relaunched series.

Peter Parker #39 
Peter Parker #40 
** PP 39-40 cover a span of two days, the first being a school day.  PP 39 
occurs a week before ASM @ 2001.**

** Amazing Spider-Man Annual 2001**
** One day and into the next morning a week after PP 39.  It is after a 
presidential election.**

Deadline #2 ~ Peter Parker #41 -- Spider-Man fights Dr. Octopus on the 
rooftops. The brief cameo in Deadline appears to coincide fairly well with 
the battle in Peter Parker, so most of his series is after the Kang War as 
well.
Deadline #3
Deadline #4

Iron Man v3 #51
Iron Man v3 #52
** IM3 51-52 cover a span of three days with a full moon shown.**

** Thunderbolts #67**
** TB 67 occurs twelve weeks after the flashback shown on page 5, which 
itself occurs shortly after TB 56.  This means that TB 67 occurs three months 
after TB 56.  The question is: did Hawkeye really spend a couple of months 
training and building trust with his new team of Thunderbolts before entering 
Symkaria?  Could they afford that much time?**

** Thunderbolts #69**
** Thunderbolts #71**
** TB 69 and 71 follow from TB 67 as TB alternates between two separate 
storylines.**

Iron Man v3 #53
** One day.**

Iron Man v3 #54
** This issue begins the same day as IM3 53 and ends ten days later.**

Iron Man v3 #55 -- Tony Stark unmasks, probably following Cap's lead.
** The first story in this issue occurs on the same day as the end of IM3 54 
and leads into the beginning of the second story in this issue.  That second 
story ends about four days later, as it is two weeks after the beginning if 
IM3 54.**

Iron Man v3 #56
** Iron Man v3 #57**
** Iron Man v3 #58**
** IM3 56-58 occur the night of the day after the end of the second story 
in IM3 55.  Theres a full moon.**

**Thor v2 #45**
** It is two weeks after the second flashback in this issue.  It is barely 
a month after T2 44, which occurred within a day or so of A3 56-FB.  As A3 56 
occurs about a month after A3 56-FB, T2 45 must occur around A3 56.  Im 
inclined to think that the costume Thor wears in A3 56 makes its first 
appearance here.**

Avengers v3 #56 -- Stark has only recently revealed his identity, and it's 
not quite common knowledge yet, thus putting this shortly after IMv3 #55. We 
also know from the Beast's dialogue that this occurs approximately one month 
after the flashback.
** Obviously, this issue occurs shortly after IM3 58, but what about Thors 
placement here? Thor is in the costume he was first seen wearing in T2 45, the 
events of T2 46-50 leave little room for gaps, and Thor brings Asgard to earth 
at the end of T2 50.  That memorable event should postdate A3 56.  So I place 
A3 56 between T2 45 and 46.**

** Thor v2 #46**
** Thor v2 #47**
** Thor v2 #48**
** Thor v2 #49**
** Thor v2 #50 (first story)**
** Thor v2 #50 (second story)**
** Thor v2 #51**
** These issues occur over the course of a day, and even though we see green 
grass and warm weather in New York, someone in issue #46 says that its 
February.**

** Thor v 2 #52**
** One day.**

** MARCH **

Daredevil v2 #26 -- This story is all over the map chronologically, so I'm 
only placing the main "now" storyline in context of this list. But since we 
see that Kingpin is blinded (or dead) throughout the flashbacks that occur up 
to 3 months ago, we have to put a lot of time between the September 11 stories 
and these. Given that we're clearly after the New Year's following September 
11 (as noted by the Christmas stories earlier), this should give enough time 
for everything.

Daredevil v2 #27
Elektra #6 -- Elektra is in NYC. This story leads directly into DDv2 #28.
Daredevil v2 #28
Daredevil v2 #29
Daredevil v2 #30
Daredevil v2 #31

Elektra #7 
Elektra #8 
Elektra #9 
** These issues of Elektra need to be divided up into segments and spread out, 
as issue #7 occurs over the course of several days and issue #8 takes place 
over the course of the following month.  Theres a full moon in issue #9.**

Daredevil v2 #32 -- Matt Murdock is revealed to be Daredevil. Since this made 
such widespread news within the Marvel Universe, this was placed before Cap 
and Iron Man's respective unmaskings.
** I dont have this issue, but if we need to place this more than three 
months after 9/11, we may want to consider that Matt is outed after Steve 
and Tony.**

Daredevil v2 #33
Daredevil v2 #34 -- Elektra is shown in London. This would coincide with the 
world travelling that is later shown in Elektra #12.
** Elektra seems to do a lot of world traveling throughout her series, so 
there may be many other convenient slots to place her appearance in London  the 
many gaps in Elektra #8, for example.**

Daredevil v2 #35 

Peter Parker #42
Peter Parker #43
** These two issues show a span of a few days during spring break for college 
students, so its probably March, before the Easter story in CA4 1-3.  Theres 
a full moon in PP 43.**

Peter Parker #44
** A rainy night.**

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #32 -- The "Spidey vs Morlun" storyline only occurs over 
the course of only a day or two. It ends with Peter getting severely beaten, 
which is useful in determining some of his other appearances.
** High school is in session and ASM2 35 shows a full moon.**

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #33
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #34 
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #35
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #37
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #38 

Peter Parker #45 -- Here, we have a bandaged Peter Parker. The story implies 
this occurs shortly after #44, but we have to place the Spidey/Morlun fight 
between the issues to account for the bandages.
Peter Parker #46 
** PP 45-46 span of a couple of days.  School.  Rain.**

** Captain America: Dead Men Running #1**
** Captain America: Dead Men Running #2**
** Captain America: Dead Men Running #3**
** Placement here, between the fourth story in CA3 50 and CA4 1, is based on 
publication chronology for Cap issues.**

** APRIL **

** Captain America Annual 2001**
** In ASM@ 2001, we have a reference to it being after a presidential election, 
and here we have a reference to a president (depicted as Dubya) who has been on 
the job only a few months.  Assuming presidents in the Marvel Universe are 
inaugurated in January, that would place this story around April.  Caps 
identity is still a secret, so this story must occur before CA4 1, which is an 
Easter story.**

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #39
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #40
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #41
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #42 -- Dr. Strange cameos. Supposedly, this will lead 
into an upcoming Dr. Strange story: "An Appointment With Death."

** Doctor Strange: The Other Side of Darkness?.**

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #43
** I count a span of six days from ASM2 39 through the first part of ASM2 43, 
which itself occurs five days before the last part of ASM2 43.  In these 
issues we have conflicting references: bare trees in ASM2 39 and green trees 
in ASM2 40; Friday, July 17" referenced in ASM2 41 and the last day of school 
before a holiday break in ASM2 43.  Im inclined to ignore the July reference 
and think of the holiday break reference as Easter (spring) break for the 
school where Peter works.  Id say this span of issues ends on Good Friday, 
two days before CA4 1-3. **

**[MOVED]** Captain America v4 #1
**[MOVED]** Captain America v4 #2
**[MOVED]** Captain America v4 #3 -- Cap unmasks on national television.
** CA4 1-3 occur on Easter, seven months after CA4 1-FB, so it must be 
April.  This would mean that this story occurs before the Richards June 
wedding anniversary referenced in FF3 55. I flipped the order of these Cap 
issues with ASM2 39-43.  This story must occur after CA@ 2001, in which Caps 
ID is still secret.  Im assuming that this story occurs after Captain America: 
Dead Men Running.**

**[MOVED]** Amazing Spider-Man v2 #43 
Since Doc Ock is out of prison here, we need to put as much space as we 
reasonably can after his capture in PP #41.

**Amazing Spider-Man v 2 #44**
** The second part of ASM2 43 and ASM2 44 occur five days after the first 
part of ASM2 43, so were looking at the Wednesday after Easter, during spring 
break at Peters school.  And, fortunately, there are no references to school 
being in session here.  So all the issues placed between the two ASM2 43 
entries on the original list dont have enough time to happen in the order 
presented.**

** X-Men Umlimited #36 (first story)**
** A Saturday and Sunday during the college year.  After the second story 
in XXM@ 2001.  Green grass and trees in Chicago.**

Hulk v2 #34 -- Bruce Banner shaves his head. We see this transfers to the Hulk 
(despite that the opposite occurs with his cousin), so it must occur after The 
Order. The manhunt for him could justifyably be in part for being a pain in the 
butt in that series, as well as the 'murder' of Ricky mentioned in this story.

Hulk v2 #35 
Hulk v2 #36 
Hulk v2 #37
Hulk v2 #38 
Hulk v2 #39
Hulk v2 #40 
Hulk v2 #41 
Hulk v2 #42 
Hulk v2 #43 
** No comment, as I dont collect Hulk.**

Elektra #10 
Elektra #11
Elektra #12
** No comment here either.**

** Spider-Man and Jay Leno**
** This three-part story, seen at the backs of various titles, takes place 
during a weekday a month before Sweet Charity.**

** MAY **

** Uncanny X-Men Annual 2001**

** This story likely occurs during the gap between UX 407 and 408.  No temporal 
references here, so I just plopped it here where things seem a bit thin, for 
now anyway.**

** Spider-Man: Sweet Charity #1**
** A span of five days  Wednesday through Monday.  Full moon.  We see Ben 
Grimms second charity auction.  As noted by others, this story should happen 
long after 9/11, so it is likely camping season of the following year.  We 
also have to leave enough time for Hawkeye to finish his covert assignment in 
Thunderbolts to appear here.  Spider-Man appeared on The Tonight Show last 
month.**

** JUNE **

** Uncanny X-Men #408**
** One day and the next day.  The events of UX 407 are noted as recent, yet 
it may be five months since then.**

** Uncanny X-Men #409 (pages 1-11)**
** Logans been hanging around for a week since UX 408.  It is two weeks 
before UX 409 pg. 12-13.**

** Fantastic Four v3 #50 (fourth story)**
** A span of a few days including Reeds and Sues wedding anniversary and we 
all know from the Official Marvel Index to the Fantastic Four #3 that Reed and 
Sue were married in late June (FF@ 3).  So this story must occur after the 
Easter story in CA4 1-3.  Im inclined to move the FF stories from this issue 
on further down the list.**

**[MOVED]** Fantastic Four v3 #55 
** A night with a full moon.  Right after the Richards anniversary in the 
fourth story in FF3 50.  It is 256 months -- 21 years and four months -- 
after Reed and Sue first met.  This puts Sue at about age 40, or at the 
youngest in her late thirties.  Aha!! I knew it  Marvel Time isnt as 
compact as weve been led to believe.  With all thats happened, how can it 
be only 7 or 10 years since FF 1?  Another reason why Franklin cant really 
be seven.**

**[MOVED]** Fantastic Four v3 #56 -- Ben, perhaps in evaluating the recent 
Kang War events, reveals he is Jewish.
** One night.**

**[MOVED]** Thing: Freakshow #1 - Ben loses some small chunks of his hide in 
a battle with the Wrecker.
**[MOVED]** Thing: Freakshow #2 

**[MOVED]** Fantastic Four v3 #57
**[MOVED]** Fantastic Four v3 #58
**[MOVED]** Fantastic Four v3 #59 -- Reed uses a piece of Ben's hide from 
Freakshow to analyze recent changes in his skin.
** FF3 57-59 occur during one day.**

** Uncanny X-Men #409 (pages 12-13)**
** One night two weeks after UX 409 pg. 1-11.  Shortly before the arranged 
meeting seen in UX 409 pg. 14-24.**

** JULY **

** Uncanny X-Men #409 (pages 14-24)**
** The narrative tells us that its Wednesday, July 2.  It is shortly after 
UX 409 pg. 12-13.**

			*	*	*

Wow.
Posted by Jeph! on August 21, 2002 at 23:09:43:
In Reply to: Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 21, 2002 at 16:20:16:

Paul...

...my God.  It's too much.  I can't begin to start to comment on it.

Wow.  Uhm.

You sure changed a lot of what we did, didn't you?

I mean, I see the temporal logic of what you do -- but in putting these books 
in their apparent place on a calendar, you've taken out a lot of the character-
continuity support beams that Sean and I based our chronologies on.

And this sort of calendar placement tends to fall apart long-term, doesn't 
it?  I mean, you say you have "Maximum Security" taking place in August/
September, and X #107 is a part of that crossover -- how do you account for 
X #109 being Christmas, when you have X #111 taking place alongside A3 #38, 
also in September?

Also, you have the X-Treme X-Men annual (which takes place between XX #9-10) 
in early October, then you have XX #5-9 in late November.  The annual should 
come AFTERWARDS...

And don't get me started on the Hank Pym/Goliath IM3 #46 thing.  I mean, I 
know it's Frank Tieri's mistake, but seriously -- Hank's costumed identity is 
very important to him and his emotional well-being, and to toss it off with a 
"ehh, it was in the wash" is an insult to Hank's character arc, and to every 
reason he decided to become YJ again in the first place.

Don't get me wrong -- I enjoy what you did.  And I see the logic of applying 
the "two weeks later"-type of in-comic references to a chronology.  But I 
think it's a bit unrealistic to see, say, green trees, and warp and fold a 
fictional universe because green trees mean spring or summer.  Trust me, I 
live in New England, and that's not always so.

I'm going to print this out and take it to work with me tomorrow, give it a 
serious think-about.  To be honest, I prefer the version Sean and I did -- but 
it's fiction, for chrissakes!  What do I care?  ;)

Mainly I'm curious to see how the "Christmas in September" X-Men #109 issue 
gets ironed into your calendar...

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

PS - I love you, man.
Posted by Jeph! on August 21, 2002 at 23:23:01:
In Reply to: Wow.
posted by Jeph! on August 21, 2002 at 23:09:43:

> I'm going to print this out and take it to work with me tomorrow, give it a 
serious think-about.  To be honest, I prefer the version Sean and I did -- but 
it's fiction, for chrissakes!  What do I care?  ;)

Hmm.  Let me rephrase that.

The bit I left out was "let me give this a serious think-about AND SEE WHAT 
POSITIVE THINGS I CAN SAY, so you don't think I'm just being negative about 
it."

I figured that bore mentioning, seeing as you clearly put a whole lot of work 
into this, and I don't want you to think I'm just slamming your ideas.

So ... yeah.  Kudos!  And stuff.  ;)

I'm curious how you work with the newly-released Cap v4 #4, seeing as the 
storyline began during Easter and ends on the 4th of July...

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Wow.
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 22, 2002 at 07:16:05:
In Reply to: Wow.
posted by Jeph! on August 21, 2002 at 23:09:43:

> I mean, I see the temporal logic of what you do -- but in putting these 
books in their apparent place on a calendar, you've taken out a lot of the 
character-continuity support beams that Sean and I based our chronologies on.

Actually, I thought character continuity was a staple of my placement.  
Certainly more important than an artist's rendering of green trees.

> And this sort of calendar placement tends to fall apart long-term, doesn't 
it?  I mean, you say you have "Maximum Security" taking place in August/
September, and X #107 is a part of that crossover -- how do you account for 
X #109 being Christmas, when you have X #111 taking place alongside A3 #38, 
also in September?

Those references don't -- and can't -- always work (but see below).  If they 
did, it would be 40 years Marvel Time since FF 1!  I tried to make them work 
where I could.  Others you have to chalk up to Olshevsky's "topical 
references."

> Also, you have the X-Treme X-Men annual (which takes place between XX #9-10) 
in early October, then you have XX #5-9 in late November.  The annual should 
come AFTERWARDS...

I may be confused with X-Treme chronology.  If there are references that place 
the annual between 9 and 10, let's move the annual.

> And don't get me started on the Hank Pym/Goliath IM3 #46 thing.  I mean, I 
know it's Frank Tieri's mistake, but seriously -- Hank's costumed identity is 
very important to him and his emotional well-being, and to toss it off with a 
"ehh, it was in the wash" is an insult to Hank's character arc, and to every 
reason he decided to become YJ again in the first place.

I interpret the "in the wash" explanation to mean that Hank has come to terms 
with his problems and is comfortable with the wearing of different costumes if 
necessary.

> Don't get me wrong -- I enjoy what you did.  And I see the logic of applying 
the "two weeks later"-type of in-comic references to a chronology.  But I think 
it's a bit unrealistic to see, say, green trees, and warp and fold a fictional 
universe because green trees mean spring or summer.  Trust me, I live in New 
England, and that's not always so.

I'm a native New Englander, so yeah, I know.  I never said that artists' 
rendering of vegetation was paramount in placing a story.  In fact, you'll 
find instances in which that doesn't work.  I just put those notes in for 
reference.  These little references are helpful when other, more important 
references leave room for interpretation.

> I'm going to print this out and take it to work with me tomorrow, give it a 
serious think-about.  To be honest, I prefer the version Sean and I did -- but 
it's fiction, for chrissakes!  What do I care?  ;)

> Mainly I'm curious to see how the "Christmas in September" X-Men #109 issue 
gets ironed into your calendar...

I knew I should have gone over Maximum Security!  There's no mistaking that 
it's Christmas in X-Men #109 -- it's central to the story.  I know you've been 
working on X-Men chronology, so I wonder if you can find a way to make the 
Christmas of X 109 the same as the one referenced in CA3 50 and IM3 50.

Please do review my notes, not only about calendar placement but also about 
character continuity and in-story references to the passage of time.  Might 
some of these notes change or enhance your and Sean's presentation of 
chronology?

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Wow.
Posted by Jeph! on August 22, 2002 at 09:25:13:
In Reply to: Re: Wow.
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 22, 2002 at 07:16:05:

> > I mean, I see the temporal logic of what you do -- but in putting these 
books in their apparent place on a calendar, you've taken out a lot of the 
character-continuity support beams that Sean and I based our chronologies 
on.

> Actually, I thought character continuity was a staple of my placement.  
Certainly more important than an artist's rendering of green trees.

I may have been exaggerating -- there were bits where I initially said "hey, 
that can't work because ABC!".  I'm taking a closer look at it all.

My main mental block right now is that I've been staring at this thing one 
way for so long.  Sean came up with the initial list, and over time he and I 
e-mailed facts and character bits back and forth -- we're working with the 
same set of information.  The list he posted here, while I had input on it, 
is not "my list".  I've actually been developing a similar list, based on the 
same facts, but there are slight differences to his list.

My point is that, working separately from Sean with the same data, I came up 
with a list that matches his 98%.  That leads me to believe that in many cases 
there's only one right way to organize these books.

Of course, you're using a completely different set of data, now aren't 
you?  :)

> > Also, you have the X-Treme X-Men annual (which takes place between XX 
#9-10) in early October, then you have XX #5-9 in late November.  The annual 
should come AFTERWARDS...

> I may be confused with X-Treme chronology.  If there are references that 
place the annual between 9 and 10, let's move the annual.

Ah.  See, I thought you were going for the slavish "it said summer so I'm 
putting it HERE!" devotion to a calendar without adequate care for the book's 
continuity.  Sorry -- this may be where I got the preconceived notion that 
you didn't care about the characters.  :(  My bad.

> I interpret the "in the wash" explanation to mean that Hank has come to 
terms with his problems and is comfortable with the wearing of different 
costumes if necessary.

Unfortunately not (or, at least, not shown on-panel).  Right now YJ is Hank's 
redemption -- he needs to prove that as his most unstable identity, he can be 
a hero.  And until he does, I don't think that YJ costume is coming off -- 
vertainly not SO SOON after he put it back on in the first place.

C'mon -- Ultron's a robot.  He could have been gathering his flock through a 
program he placed in the sentient armor since IM3 #31.  Cahmaaaaaahn.  ;)

> I'm a native New Englander, so yeah, I know.

Heh.  Enjoy our beautiful winters!

> > Mainly I'm curious to see how the "Christmas in September" X-Men #109 
issue gets ironed into your calendar...

> I knew I should have gone over Maximum Security!  There's no mistaking that 
it's Christmas in X-Men #109 -- it's central to the story.  I know you've been 
working on X-Men chronology, so I wonder if you can find a way to make the 
Christmas of X 109 the same as the one referenced in CA3 50 and IM3 50.

Not very easily -- you can say it's Christmas in X 109, but X 111 takes place 
just before A3 #38 in terms of Quicksilver's chronology, which places it in 
(probably) early January.  References in Cap #44 place it after A3 #38, and 
references in A3 #41 place IM3 #42 before it.  So both Cap #50 and IM3 #50 
have to come well after A3 #38 -- which is now in January.

The Cap #50 Xmas story you could shift backwards, but the IM story ends with 
his putting on his Grell/Ryan armor sometime around New Year's.  And he doesn't 
wear that armor until sometime after A:UI in the main book.

What you COULD do is ignore the "one week ago" reference in #50, and place the 
FLASHBACK around Christmastime.  Then place the bulk of the book where it 
belongs in-continuity -- which, freed from the topical flashback, would be 
after the Kang war as Tom Brevoort suggests.

> Might some of these notes change or enhance your and Sean's presentation of 
chronology?

Oh, absolutely.  Your interpretation of post-Kang War events is helping 
immensely, for example...

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

One other thing...
Posted by Jeph! on August 22, 2002 at 09:34:52:
In Reply to: Re: Wow.
posted by Jeph! on August 22, 2002 at 09:25:13:

One more thing on XMas:

> > There's no mistaking that it's Christmas in X-Men #109 -- I wonder if 
you can find a way to make the Christmas of X 109 the same as the one 
referenced in CA3 50 and IM3 50.

> Not very easily -- you can say it's Christmas in X 109, but X 111 takes 
place just before A3 #38 in terms of Quicksilver's chronology, which places 
it in (probably) early January.  References in Cap #44 place it after A3 #38, 
and references in A3 #41 place IM3 #42 before it.  So both Cap #50 and IM3 
#50 have to come well after A3 #38 -- which is now in January.

Whoops -- that should read, "references in A3 #41 place IM3 #42 AFTER it".

And I just remembered -- A3 #38 references it being "winter, but unseasonably 
warm weather".  This might make it easier, on a revised calendar, to make all 
them "green foliage and falling leaves" references easier to swallow.

I'll try to have more specific notes tonight -- I'm going to try to point out 
ways that various character's chronologies can be streamlined, and then see 
if those changes work on your calendar.

For example, you moved the "Citizen V" series back behind the "Defenders" run, 
but Attuma is the ruler of Atlantis in CV #2, and he doesn't attain the throne 
until D2 #2!  Can one book or the other be shifted on your calendar?

More later.  Hopefully some positive reinforcement as well.  :)

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*
Re: Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
Posted by SKleefeld on August 22, 2002 at 14:44:17:
In Reply to: Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 21, 2002 at 16:20:16:

> I would like to commend Sean and Jeph on their monumental efforts to sort 
out the events of various Marvel titles surrounding the Kang War and place 
them all in a chronology.  You have to admire the dedication and attention 
to detail!

Thanks much, Paul. 

> Guys, you've inspired me to take my own stab at this, so here it is.  I've 
left in Sean's references and have noted my own comments and changes with 
double asterisks (**).  It's not quite complete, but I've spent long enough 
on it -- time to share.

Heh. I know how that goes!  :)

Good analysis overall. Glad Jeph and I were able to "inspire" you into 
insanity! I've got a few initial comments, but it's a big list to absorb so 
I'll have to read through it more carefully later before I talk about it too 
much.

But I'm going to have to admit a bias against tying continuity to a calendaric 
timeline. I understand why you're going that route; I just find it's easier to 
place stories relative to each other, rather than to an "absolute" placement 
that a calendar requires. Because of the fundamental differences in approach, 
I'm undoubtably going to find "problems" with parts of things. Don't take them 
as a criticism of your work necessarily, but only as a different solution 
based on a different approach.

> I apologize for the formatting.  It looks fine in my WordPerfect document, 
but when pasted here the document doesn't look so great.

No apologies necessary. There's only so much ANYONE can do to make these lists 
readable!  :)

Anyway, on to a few initial comments...

> Avengers: Celestial Quest #1 -- From Tom Brevoort: "AVENGERS: CELESTIAL 
QUEST #1-8 occur between AVENGERS #40 & #41."
> Avengers: Celestial Quest #2 -- Thor, Firebird, Silverclaw, Vision, and 
Scarlet Witch leave the Avengers Mansion for space and remain in space until 
sometime after A:CQ #8. Iron Man could well be simultaneously busy in his own 
series, accounting for his non-appearance here.
> Avengers: Celestial Quest #3 
> Avengers: Celestial Quest #4
> Avengers: Celestial Quest #5 
> Avengers: Celestial Quest #6
> Avengers: Celestial Quest #7 
> Avengers: Celestial Quest #8 
> ** These eight issues occur over the course of a couple of days.  It is 
supposed to be five years after A 128, but it must be quite a bit longer.  
Dont get me started on the overall passage of Marvel Time.**

Yeah, I caught that too. This is why I don't try to nail things down on a 
calendar.

> Avengers: the Ultron Imperative -- OK, this is the first appearance of Hank 
Pym as Yellowjacket. On the surface, dialogue would imply that his first 
appearance as YJ is Av3 #45, but I'll touch on that later. Iron Man is also 
using his classic armor here, stating that he is doing some additional 
tinkering on his normal armor.
> ** One night and the next day.  Hawkeye is given a temporary release from 
Seagate Prison to participate in this adventure.  Unseen Wanda thought 
balloon: Hmm. Hanks wearing his Yellowjacket costume.  Thats odd.  Well, 
maybe his Goliath costume is in the wash.  I wont pry.**

Heh. We'll have to come up with a Mystery Science Theater 3000 version of 
these books sometime!  :) 

> ** [MOVED] Captain America v 3 #50 (fifth story)**
> ** News of Caps death spreads and we see a funeral that probably occurs 
several days later.  We see a non-pregnant Invisible Woman and Namor as 
sovereign of Atlantis.  Iron Man is not wearing the Grell-Ryan armor; hes 
in the transitional armor that lasted from IM3 44 through 49. Thor is in his 
classic costume, so this story should occur before T2 31, the storyline that 
leads to Odins death (and that storys reference to unusually early 
snowfall).  We see that the Beast is not cat-like, so this story occurs before 
X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #1 and New X-Men #114.  All these clues place this 
story before the Christmas of the first story in CA3 50.  

I don't see that's necessarily true. Admittedly, I don't get NXM, but there 
are no Christmas references outside of IM #50 that have to put the first 
story after the others.

Jeph did bring up the oddity of school being in session, but with the Kang 
War going on, how many school days were lost and needed to be made up again? 

> ** Kang is in Damocles Base. Another unseen Wanda thought balloon: Okay, 
I know were all suspended in mid-air, but theres Hank with his Yellowjacket 
costume again.  Just what is up with that?**

In the not-too-distant future: next Sunday A.D. There was a guy named Brevoort, 
not too different from you and me. He worked at Marvel Institute, just another 
guy in red Flash suit. He did a good job editting up the place, but his fans 
got sick of con'nuity and shot him into space!

We'll develop cheesey lists, the most obnoxious we can make! La-la-la! Then 
we'll make him sit and read them all, and he'll tell us it's all fake! 
La-la-la! 

> ** A3 46-50 occur within the 96 hours the Avengers were given to stop 
Kang at the end of A3 45.**

Jeph and I talked about this too. The "96 hours" reference was made in advance 
through character dialogue. There could be any number of reasons why that 
number could be inaccurate. Maybe the timetable was altered. Maybe the guy 
was mis-informed. Maybe there was a technical glitch. I don't consider it 
terribly reliable with regards to continuity.

> ** New X-Men #114**
> ** New X-Men #115**
> ** New X-Men #116**
> ** The Beast makes his second cat-like appearance in these issues.  Scott 
and Jean have barely touched each other for five months; anyone want to 
check the last previous instance of intimacy?  The aftermath of Xaviers big 
revelation from New X-Men #116 is felt in the following issues of X-Treme and 
Uncanny, and I place them right after this.**

> **X-Treme X-Men #5**
> ** Xaviers TV appearance from New X-Men #116 is rebroadcast here.**

> **Uncanny X-Men #395**
> **X-Treme X-Men #5**
> **Uncanny X-Men #396**
> **X-Treme X-Men #6**
> **X-Treme X-Men #7**
> **X-Treme X-Men #8**
> **Uncanny X-Men #397**
> **Uncanny X-Men #398**
> ** I figure these issues span around five days and we see full moons in 
both titles (although a crescent moon appears in XXM 6).**

This is helpful to me, certainly. The only X-book I get anymore is X-Treme, so 
I had no clue about most of the placements here.

> ** Thor v2 #32 (last page)**
> ** I propose that a time gap exists between the last two pages of this 
issue.  All but the last page is linked to Maximum Security, which predates 
9/11, and the last page starts us on a continuous ride that takes us to Odins 
death, which must postdate A3 55. It just takes a couple of months for Thor to 
get around to showing Beta Ray where Jake Olson lives.  A time gap is 
suggested in Thor 33 when Jake asks his mother to remember the events of 
Maximum Security; he notes that it happened a couple of weeks ago, but 
maybe hes talking Asgard time (see below).**

> ** Thor v2 #33**
> ** Snow in New York.  This snow may be natural, not the result of the casket 
of ancient winters from Thor #31.**

> ** Thor v2 #34**
> ** Snow again.** 

> ** Thor v2 #35**
> ** Thor v2 #36**
> ** Thor v2 #37**
> ** Thor v2 #38**
> ** Thor v2 #39**
> ** Thor v2 #40**
> ** Thor v2 #41**
> **Only days before the first flashback in T2 45.**

> ** Thor v2 #42**
> ** All these issues form a continuous narrative of a couple of days that 
includes the death of Odin.** 

More helpful goodies! Excellent!

> Peter Parker #37 -- It's snowing absurdly hard...
> ** And theres wind chill of -50 degrees!  Schools are closed because of 
the storm, so this story does not occur during the holiday/new year break.**

Although breaks have been known not to start until as late as December 23! 
Believe me when I tell you that my wife (who's a teacher) was pissed about 
that one last year!

> Peter Parker #38 -- Spidey vs mimes. Still got three weeks to fill... 
Besides, I want to highlight this issue because it's a REALLY funny story. 
So go buy a copy if you haven't already!
> ** Looks like warm weather in this story.  Maybe this can be pushed down 
the list.**

It was almost arbitrary placement since I was trying to fill in the 3 weeks 
between Avengers issue. If there's a good reason to push it back, I don't 
have much of a problem with that.

> Daredevil v2 #32 -- Matt Murdock is revealed to be Daredevil. Since this 
made such widespread news within the Marvel Universe, this was placed before 
Cap and Iron Man's respective unmaskings.
> ** I dont have this issue, but if we need to place this more than three 
months after 9/11, we may want to consider that Matt is outed after Steve 
and Tony.**

I lean towards outting Daredevil first. The unmasking of superheroes who've 
held secret identities for the past *ahem* ten years is a big deal. But we 
see only a little reaction from Cap's unmasking and virtually none from Iron 
Man's. The flood of reporters that hound Matt suggest to me that he was first, 
and that Cap and IM don't create as much of a news stir because it's become 
envogue to demask after DD.

** Captain America Annual 2001**
> ** In ASM@ 2001, we have a reference to it being after a presidential 
election, and here we have a reference to a president (depicted as Dubya) who 
has been on the job only a few months.  Assuming presidents in the Marvel 
Universe are inaugurated in January, that would place this story around 
April.  

Doesn't hold up. GW also appeared throughout the Kang War in Avengers, which 
you've placed mainly in November. The CA Annual would need to go almost a 
full year earlier, and the ASM Annual before that.

> ** Fantastic Four v3 #50 (fourth story)**
> ** A span of a few days including Reeds and Sues wedding anniversary and 
we all know from the Official Marvel Index to the Fantastic Four #3 that Reed 
and Sue were married in late June (FF@ 3).  So this story must occur after 
the Easter story in CA4 1-3.  Im inclined to move the FF stories from this 
issue on further down the list.**

I'll have to double-check again, but I thought I checked for this already. 
IIRC, it doesn't actually say WHICH anniversary they're celebrating. The 
"having seen you" anniversary is shown in FF #55, but it could be their 
dating anniversary or their engagement anniversary or -- most likely -- the 
anniversary of their rocket flight. Which is supported by the fact that 
Johnny and Ben go along with them! I don't think this needs to be tied to 
their June wedding.

> **[MOVED]** Fantastic Four v3 #55 
> ** A night with a full moon.  Right after the Richards anniversary in the 
fourth story in FF3 50.  It is 256 months -- 21 years and four months -- 
after Reed and Sue first met.  This puts Sue at about age 40, or at the 
youngest in her late thirties. 

Sue was only about 12 when she first met Reed. She could easily still be 
in her early thirties. 

> Aha!! I knew it  Marvel Time isnt as compact as weve been led to believe.  
With all thats happened, how can it be only 7 or 10 years since FF 1?  
Another reason why Franklin cant really be seven.**

Remember, too, that FF vol 1 #1 was long after Reed and Sue had started 
dating. They already had a fairly grounded history with each other by the time 
the story in FF #1 started. They could've been dating 20 years before we first 
see them!

Like I said, a very impressive list. Couple of things I noticed offhand, but 
it looks like you've pulled in a lot of details that I certainly wasn't 
looking at (phases of the moon, for example). And your work on the books 
that Jeph and I hadn't touched yet helps immensely!

I'll get back to you with more comments when I get a chance to read it more 
closely. Thanks!

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Jeph's reply, part one
Posted by Jeph! on August 22, 2002 at 17:58:23:
In Reply to: Re: Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
posted by SKleefeld on August 22, 2002 at 14:44:17:

Let's see if I can get through this without turning everything red through 
some foolhardy HTML error... 

> > You have to admire the dedication and attention to detail!

Then you have to call the insane asylum.

But still, thanks for the compliments, Paul, if I didn't say it before. 

> But I'm going to have to admit a bias against tying continuity to a 
calendaric timeline. I understand why you're going that route; I just find 
it's easier to place stories relative to each other, rather than to an 
"absolute" placement that a calendar requires. Because of the fundamental 
differences in approach, I'm undoubtably going to find "problems" with parts 
of things. Don't take them as a criticism of your work necessarily, but only 
as a different solution based on a different approach.

Ah -- see, as usual Sean's found a nicer way to say what I was thinking.  This 
is what I was trying to say earlier.

Having read and absorbed most of Paul's list, I see though that for most of 
it, he's only ADDED bits -- left our order alone, and noted where on his 
calendar it all likely takes place.

The bits that he changed, he changed for calendar or in-story time passage 
reasons.  In some cases it works -- moving TB #53 closer to TB #54 because 
the book said only two days passed, for example, changes nothing except Cap's 
chronology -- so why not make the change?

But in some cases it just doesn't work.  (D2 and CV, for example.)  All I'm 
doing right now is looking at the changes he made and seeing if they're 
viable -- deciding which needs to be altered, our order or his. 

> > I apologize for the formatting.  It looks fine in my WordPerfect document, 
but when pasted here the document doesn't look so great.

Looked fine to me. 

> Anyway, on to a few initial comments... 

And my comments on Sean's comments: 

> Avengers: the Ultron Imperative
** Unseen Wanda thought balloon: Hmm. Hanks wearing his Yellowjacket 
costume.  Thats odd.  Well, maybe his Goliath costume is in the wash.  I 
wont pry.**

Unseen Wanda thought balloon:  "Oh God, he's changed again.  Too bad it's 
none of my goddamn business." 

> > ** [MOVED] Captain America v 3 #50 (fifth story)**

And sixth.

> > ** News of Caps death spreads and we see a funeral that probably occurs 
several days later.  We see a non-pregnant Invisible Woman and Namor as 
sovereign of Atlantis.  Iron Man is not wearing the Grell-Ryan armor; hes 
in the transitional armor that lasted from IM3 44 through 49. Thor is in his 
classic costume, so this story should occur before T2 31, the storyline that 
leads to Odins death (and that storys reference to unusually early snowfall).  
We see that the Beast is not cat-like, so this story occurs before X-Treme 
X-Men: Savage Land #1 and New X-Men #114.  All these clues place this story 
before the Christmas of the first story in CA3 50.

> I don't see that's necessarily true. Admittedly, I don't get NXM, but there 
are no Christmas references outside of IM #50 that have to put the first story 
after the others. 

I was confused by this as well -- I think what he's saying is that, since on 
HIS calendar it's still November, and Cap #50/5-6 can't be pushed FARTHER 
FORWARD because of all the clues above, that must mean CA3 #50/1 has to be 
pushed forward.

Of course, I just sent him tips on how to push the Xmas references BACK to 
coincide with X #109, so don't worry too much about this... 

> > ** A3 46-50 occur within the 96 hours the Avengers were given to stop 
Kang at the end of A3 45.**

> Jeph and I talked about this too. The "96 hours" reference was made in 
advance through character dialogue. There could be any number of reasons why 
that number could be inaccurate. Maybe the timetable was altered. Maybe the 
guy was mis-informed. Maybe there was a technical glitch. I don't consider it 
terribly reliable with regards to continuity.

...Except that it works, on all three of our lists. 

> > ** New X-Men #116**
> > Scott and Jean have barely touched each other for five months; anyone 
want to check the last previous instance of intimacy?

That would have to be at the close of the "Search for Cyclops" series, I'm 
thinking -- which took place between "Maximum Security" and X 108, according 
to Rob Weinberg, "Cable" writer at the time.  On Paul's calendar, September 
(or October if he decides to place X 109 in December and stretch the previous 
months).  Putting this comment at Feb/March or so. 

> More helpful goodies! Excellent!

I'm starting to think we should pump Paul for info on all the books we don't 
have.  (cough, captain marvel) 

> Although breaks have been known not to start until as late as December 23! 
Believe me when I tell you that my wife (who's a teacher) was pissed about 
that one last year!

I'm going to let you two fight about this.  I'm of the mindset that snowstorms 
happen all the time -- if you really wanted, you could put this alongside the 
"cask of ancient winters" snowfall from Thor #30-whatever. 

> I lean towards outting Daredevil first. The unmasking of superheroes who've 
held secret identities for the past *ahem* ten years is a big deal. But we see 
only a little reaction from Cap's unmasking and virtually none from Iron Man's. 
The flood of reporters that hound Matt suggest to me that he was first, and 
that Cap and IM don't create as much of a news stir because it's become 
envogue to demask after DD.

I have to agree on this count.  DD gets all the press and IM gets none.  
Actually, if you'll read the latest Daredevil, he denies the allegations, 
continuing the media circus -- I wouldn't say unmasking has become "en vogue".  
Besides, he's BLIND, his unmasking is a little different than Cap's ("Hi, I'm 
a former comic artist -- you've probably never seen me before." versus "Hi, 
I'm fuckin' BLIND and I fight crime.").  You'd expect DD to get more press 
than Cap, but not IM.

Let me see if I can put some chronology into this.  In Deadline #4, Ben Urich 
is talking about how he once had DD's secret identity, and decided not to 
publish it (DD #164).  Also in this series, the paper speculates who Cap 
is -- so it looks like this series is before both Cap AND DD unmask.  Still 
doesn't tell us much about which came first, though -- crud. 

> >  ** Captain America Annual 2001**

> Doesn't hold up. GW also appeared throughout the Kang War in Avengers, which 
you've placed mainly in November. The CA Annual would need to go almost a full 
year earlier, and the ASM Annual before that.

Good catch.  I was gonna mention this.  Dubya was in the White House in A3 
#49 -- it's not like he was president-elect or anything.

By the way, wasn't ASM@2001 a direct continuation of the "MJ is kidnapped" 
story from ASM2 #29 and PPSM2 #29? 

> > **[MOVED]** Fantastic Four v3 #55 
> > ** It is 256 months -- 21 years and four months -- after Reed and Sue 
first met.  This puts Sue at about age 40, or at the youngest in her late 
thirties. 

> Sue was only about 12 when she first met Reed. She could easily still be 
in her early thirties. 

Reed and Sue met at age 12?  That's so sweet its almost sick.  Where was 
this established?

That oughtta do it for part one.  Next up, Paul, I reply to your original 
post directly.  PREPAAAAARE...

	-Jeph!
did he successfully HTML this?  Only the click of the button below will 
tell...

			*	*	*

Re: Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 22, 2002 at 20:16:59:
In Reply to: Re: Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
posted by SKleefeld on August 22, 2002 at 14:44:17:

Sean and Jeph --

Instead of tackling each reply, I think I'll wait to digest all the comments.  
It may be more productive that way, especially after you've had a chance to 
see how some added observations I've made may actually work.

Generally, I should say a few things first:

1) It's really great to communicate with fellow chronologists (chronologers?).  
(I wonder what Russ thinks of all this?)  We're all in the business of making 
sense of the MU so that there is a greater grounding in a "fictional reality."  
I think we all feel this enhances the stories.  After all, one of the things 
that has made Marvel great (IMHO) is that sense of continuity -- that events 
unfold like history.

2) I do feel that there is immense value in *relative* chronological 
placement.  That's the whole purpose of this web site.  It's important to know 
each character's history to better understand his/her life.  There are many 
ways comics provide clues about relative chronology:
references to past events; references to synchronous events; changes in 
costumes; changes in character appearance (beards, for instance); and (although 
not necessarily trustworthy) order of publication.

3) On the other hand, I do feel that we need to pay attention to *absolute* 
chronological placement.  This is important so we have a sense of the passage 
of Marvel time -- that we're talking about a world where seasons change and 
years pass.  That sense enhances our appreciation for character chronologies 
by grounding them in "fictional real world" history.  Comics provide many 
clues about absolute chronological (calendar) placement: birthdays, 
anniversaries, holidays, specific dates, seasons, weather, lunar phases, 
political elections, and time passages between scenes and issues.  (Hey, has 
Marvel ever referenced the terrorist attack on New York as "9/11?"  Here's a 
thought: that event may have happened on a different date in the MU.)

4) I do realize that things don't always line up and that some forms of 
reference (whether they deal with relative or absolute chronology) are more 
trustworthy than others.  In order of reliability, from greatest to least: 
major plot point hinges on the reference (full moons are pretty important for 
Werewolf By Night); minor plot point hinges on the reference; dialog reference 
(character speaking); narrative reference (writer speaking); graphic reference 
(artist just felt like drawing that full moon because s/he thinks it looks 
cool).

5) I do admit that that there will be "topical references" that should be 
ignored, but that it's better to ignore less trustworthy references than more 
trustworthy ones.  In my mind, the MU has "topical characters" -- U.S. 
presidents being an example.  Read George W. Bush as the character, "President 
du Jour."  He may represent one character or more.  Likewise two different real 
world presidents may be the same Marvel character.

Having said all that, I think we need to consider both relative and absolute 
chronology to come up with the definitive list.  By ignoring absolute 
chronology, you end up having calendars that make no sense.  By ignoring 
relative chronology, you end up with disjointed character histories.  What 
I'm attempting to do is challenge some assumptions you may have been making 
in lining up a relative chronological list (e.g. Do those stories in CA3 50 
really have to occur in the order they're printed?) by introducing more 
information about absolute chronology.

I'm convinced we can work out a chronology/ timeline with relatively few 
topical references and few instances of bending and warping to suit our 
tastes.  Ever the optimist...

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
Posted by Jeph! on August 22, 2002 at 21:26:07:
In Reply to: Re: Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 22, 2002 at 20:16:59:

> Instead of tackling each reply, I think I'll wait to digest all the 
comments.  It may be more productive that way, especially after you've had a 
chance to see how some added observations I've made may actually work.

Okey doke.  I'm in the process of writing my reply to you RIIIGHT now, so if 
you wait another hour or so, you should have some stuff from me to work with.

> 1) It's really great to communicate with fellow chronologists

So it is.  At first I was annoyed with having to once again re-think my 
chronology, but at work today I realized that this constant challenge is FUN, 
FUN, FUN!  And it's more fun in a group, or on a team.

We should get ourselves a headquarters and a government liason.

> (I wonder what Russ thinks of all this?)

I don't blame him if he's swigging Pepto as he frantically re-piles his 
comics.  Alternately, he's ignoring us until we come to a consensus.  It's 
what I'd do.

> I do feel that there is immense value in *relative* chronological 
placement ... On the other hand, I do feel that we need to pay attention 
to *absolute* chronological placement.  This is important so we have a sense 
of the passage of Marvel time -- that we're talking about a world where 
seasons change and years pass.  That sense enhances our appreciation for 
character chronologies by grounding them in "fictional real world" history.

I agree here, but only to a point.  The Marvel Universe is going to keep 
growing and growing and growing, and never will it get much larger, if you 
know what i mean.  Things that we think of as "absolute" will eventually be 
swept aside by some hot young writer who has no conception of what we are 
trying to do.  Whereas, barring monumental editorial cock-up, no character's 
established "relative history" will ever be harmed.

Yes, the war that Reed and Ben, Tony and Prof. X fought in will be changed 
from WWII to Vietnam and eventually, probably, to the Persian Gulf, but the 
fact that FF 2 came after FF 1 will never be altered.

I'm all for a fictional and subject-to-change absolute calendar placement, 
Paul, AS LONG AS it doesn't alter too terribly the relative order of the 
characters' history.

> (Hey, has Marvel ever referenced the terrorist attack on New York as "9/11?"  
Here's a thought: that event may have happened on a different date in the MU.)

You know, I've thought that too.  Except, I could swear that I read a new comic 
TODAY where they mentioned "9/11".  Could have been Cap v4 #4, could have been 
Hulk #44 ... I honestly can't remember.

There's a shot of a non-damaged Pentagon in UX #392, by the way.  I've thought 
that maybe in the MU the Pentagon wasn't hit, or that Damage Control fixed it 
faster than in our universe ...

> In order of reliability, from greatest to least: major plot point hinges on 
the reference (full moons are pretty important for Werewolf By Night); minor 
plot point hinges on the reference; dialog reference (character speaking); 
narrative reference (writer speaking); graphic reference (artist just felt 
like drawing that full moon because s/he thinks it looks cool).

Sean and I came up with a similar type of list to determine chronology stuff.  
I'll try to dig it up, but it goes something like "explicit reference by 
character, implied reference by character, narrative reference", etc etc.

> 5) I do admit that that there will be "topical references" that should be 
ignored, but that it's better to ignore less trustworthy references than more 
trustworthy ones.

Right, sure.

> In my mind, the MU has "topical characters" -- U.S. presidents being an 
example.  Read George W. Bush as the character, "President du Jour."  He may 
represent one character or more.  Likewise two different real world presidents 
may be the same Marvel character.

See, I'd always just thought that in the MU, presidents get elected once a 
year.  :)  Or that Eternity and Infinity are having fun with the MU's 
perception of politics...

> What I'm attempting to do is challenge some assumptions you may have been 
making in lining up a relative chronological list

Got it, and that can't be anything but a good thing, as long as YOU'RE willing 
to listen to why we did what we did in the first place.  Which you are.

> (e.g. Do those stories in CA3 50 really have to occur in the order they're 
printed?)

In an annual or any other case of a "back-up story", I'd say not.  But the 
stories in this issue -- well, #3-6 anyway -- seem to flow right along as 
one narrative written and illustrated in different styles.  That and the fact 
that we don't seem to get into the "meat" of the issue until story #4, leads 
me to NOT treat this issue as "chop 'em up and let 'em fall", like I would 
an annual.

By the way, with suggestions I'm busily making in my reply, they CAN go in 
order -- except that story #1 has to take place between CA #39-40.

But, I see what you're saying.

> I'm convinced we can work out a chronology/ timeline with relatively few 
topical references and few instances of bending and warping to suit our 
tastes.

We'll see.  It's a challenge, for sure.

Dammit, though, ALL I wanted to do when I got into this was X-Men stuff.  If 
not for this one friend who keeps pestering me about, of all people, Namorita's 
chronology, I don't think I'd be here today.

One of these days I WILL get to this X-stuff.  I must.

Thanks for the pep talk, Paul.  I look forward to yelling very loudly at my 
computer screen every so often for the next few weeks.

	-Jeph!
...I'm still not unpacked

			*	*	*

Re: Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 22, 2002 at 21:53:29:
In Reply to: Re: Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
posted by Jeph! on August 22, 2002 at 21:26:07:

> Okey doke.  I'm in the process of writing my reply to you RIIIGHT now, so if 
you wait another hour or so, you should have some stuff from me to work with.

I look forward to it.  Will Sean chime in separately?  It may take several days 
for me to respond to the reply, though.  I see lots of double-checking in my 
future.

> We should get ourselves a headquarters and a government liason.

As long as it's not %$#@ing Gyrich.

> I don't blame him if he's swigging Pepto as he frantically re-piles his 
comics.  Alternately, he's ignoring us until we come to a consensus.  It's 
what I'd do.

Yeah, me too.

> I agree here, but only to a point.  The Marvel Universe is going to keep 
growing and growing and growing, and never will it get much larger, if you 
know what i mean.  Things that we think of as "absolute" will eventually be 
swept aside by some hot young writer who has no conception of what we are 
trying to do.  Whereas, barring monumental editorial cock-up, no character's 
established "relative history" will ever be harmed.

That didn't stop Olshevsky!

> Yes, the war that Reed and Ben, Tony and Prof. X fought in will be changed 
from WWII to Vietnam and eventually, probably, to the Persian Gulf, but the 
fact that FF 2 came after FF 1 will never be altered.

I don't pay much attention to those "real-world" backdrops that force one to 
assign numbered years to the Marvel Universe.  If I did, I'd start with FF 1 
in 1961 and say the curent stories occur circa 1980.  But that's another 
discussion...

> I'm all for a fictional and subject-to-change absolute calendar placement, 
Paul, AS LONG AS it doesn't alter too terribly the relative order of the 
characters' history.

Absolutely.  I'm just requesting the accommodation of the calendar wherever 
possible.

> You know, I've thought that too.  Except, I could swear that I read a new 
comic TODAY where they mentioned "9/11".  Could have been Cap v4 #4, could 
have been Hulk #44 ... I honestly can't remember.

It's in Spider-Man and the Black Cat: The Evil That Men Do #2.  I just finished 
it and grinned.

> There's a shot of a non-damaged Pentagon in UX #392, by the way.  I've 
thought that maybe in the MU the Pentagon wasn't hit, or that Damage Control 
fixed it faster than in our universe ...

Good possible explanations, so I wouldn't let that Pentagon depiction mess 
things up.

> See, I'd always just thought that in the MU, presidents get elected once 
a year.  :)  Or that Eternity and Infinity are having fun with the MU's 
perception of politics...

It all comes down to what assumptions we make about how similar the real 
world and the MU are.  I've been inclined to go with the presidential-election-
every-fourth-November pattern, which explains my "topical character" concept.  
I'd like to know what the editors say about that.

Come to think of it, maybe the MU does have three snowy Christmases a year ;)

> Got it, and that can't be anything but a good thing, as long as YOU'RE 
willing to listen to why we did what we did in the first place.  Which you 
are.

Sure am.

> Dammit, though, ALL I wanted to do when I got into this was X-Men stuff.  If 
not for this one friend who keeps pestering me about, of all people, Namorita's 
chronology, I don't think I'd be here today.

Sorry, you really can't get away with that.  The MU is just too interconnected.

> Thanks for the pep talk, Paul.  I look forward to yelling very loudly at my 
computer screen every so often for the next few weeks.

Hah!

---Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 23, 2002 at 11:46:44:
In Reply to: Re: Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
posted by Jeph! on August 22, 2002 at 21:26:07:

> You know, I've thought that too.  Except, I could swear that I read a new 
comic TODAY where they mentioned "9/11".  Could have been Cap v4 #4, could 
have been Hulk #44 ... I honestly can't remember.

I'm pretty sure the 9/11 date has been used in Call of Duty - which finally 
got around to unambiguously placing itself in the Marvel Universe this week 
with the obligatory Spider-Man cameo in Wagon #1.

			*	*	*

Re: Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 23, 2002 at 21:43:11:
In Reply to: Re: Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
posted by Jeph! on August 22, 2002 at 21:26:07:

> > (I wonder what Russ thinks of all this?)

> I don't blam him if he's swigging Pepto as he frantically re-piles his 
comics.  Alternately, he's ignoring us until we come to a consensus.  It's 
what I'd do.

Well, yes and no. Of course, I'm not ignoring anyone, but my chronologizing 
lately has centered on 1993. You, Sean, and Paul Bourcier are three of the 
most meticulous contributors we have (in fact, Jeph, your two "partners" in 
this venture/discussion are members of the Board of Directors of the Project...
taking the lead in this debate is part of their "rayson day-trah" (pardon mah 
french)), and I'm perfectly confident leaving it in your (the three of your) 
hands. With insights provided by Paul O'Brien (my racmu hero) and Tom Brevoort, 
this has been one of the most enlightening topics since we opened up the 
posting board.

Run with it.

But I will wait until some sort of consensus is reached before shuffling 
stuff in the Project.

			*	*	*

Re: Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
Posted by Jeph! on August 23, 2002 at 22:06:10:
In Reply to: Re: Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
posted by Russ Chappell on August 23, 2002 at 21:43:11:

> > > (I wonder what Russ thinks of all this?)

> > I don't [blame Russ] if...he's ignoring us until we come to a consensus.

> Well, yes and no. Of course, I'm not ignoring anyone, but my chronologizing 
lately has centered on 1993.

I'm sorry, Russ -- the "he's ignoring us" thing was meant as a joke.  I hope 
you didn't take offense.

> (in fact, Jeph, your two "partners" in this venture/discussion are members 
of the Board of Directors of the Project...)

I ... did not know that!

Humm.  Perhaps I should be a bit more respectful.

"Sean, SIR, your idea sucks!"  ;)

Kidding.  But, actually, it's fairly cool to realize that I'm engaging in 
ongoing debate with people INVOLVED WITH THE PROJECT ... and, for the most 
part, holding my own!  Makes me feel simultaneously important and humbled all 
at once.

Now if only I could find a way to get PAID for this, I'd be golden...

> With insights provided by Paul O'Brien (my racmu hero) and Tom Brevoort, 
this has been one of the most enlightening topics since we opened up the 
posting board.

Yeah, it's a real melting pot of top brains!

> Run with it.

I'm finishing out the X-Men portion of it this weekend.  Expect more rousing 
debates, mainly from Paul "I can debunk every X-thing you can imagine without 
the slightest bit of apparent effort" O'Brien.  :)

> But I will wait until some sort of consensus is reached before shuffling 
stuff in the Project.

I wouldn't have it any other way.

Thanks for letting me play with the big boys here -- even if I didn't realize 
they were the big boys at the time!  Ah, the anonymity of the internet.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 24, 2002 at 14:19:59:
In Reply to: Re: Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
posted by Jeph! on August 23, 2002 at 22:06:10:

> > (in fact, Jeph, your two "partners" in this venture/discussion are members 
of the Board of Directors of the Project...)

> I ... did not know that!

> Humm.  Perhaps I should be a bit more respectful.

> "Sean, SIR, your idea sucks!"  ;)

That's more like it, Jeph!

> Kidding.  But, actually, it's fairly cool to realize that I'm engaging in 
ongoing debate with people INVOLVED WITH THE PROJECT ... and, for the most 
part, holding my own!  Makes me feel simultaneously important and humbled all 
at once.

Based on their many contributions, I suspected that Sean and Jeph were on the 
Board. We never had a virtual conference until now.  (Hey, what kind of Board 
is this? ;))  I contributed a number of chronological analyses directly to 
Russ back before there was a forum here, and I was gratified to find that 
they were incorporated into the MCP.  I've been away for a while (well, just 
watching from a distance) while on other quests.  It looks like I'm back in 
the thick of things, although I still don't have lots of time to devote. :(

I also took a spin-off of my efforts at MCP to Van Plexico's Avengers Assemble 
web site (where I was given the moniker, "Captain Calendar") -- a year-by-year 
Avengers calendar, which I haven't updated since Odin was in diapers.  (Free 
plug!)

> Now if only I could find a way to get PAID for this, I'd be golden...

Hey, are they looking for folks to do another Official Marvel Index? ;)

> > With insights provided by Paul O'Brien (my racmu hero) and Tom Brevoort, 
this has been one of the most enlightening topics since we opened up the 
posting board.

> Yeah, it's a real melting pot of top brains!

You're not going to compare us to Reed, Charles, Tony, and Bruce are you? ;)

> > Run with it.

I'll be on vacation for several days, but I'm compiling all the forum 
discussions and have a place reserved at the drawing board.

Verily, a mighty challenge indeed.  Why am I reminded of Hercules when he 
gets rowdy and gives his friends "the gift?"

Paul

			*	*	*

Jeph's reply, part two
Posted by Jeph! on August 22, 2002 at 23:05:14:
In Reply to: Kudos to Sean and Jeph!  You've Inspired Me -- Kang War Redux!
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 21, 2002 at 16:20:16:

Back again with more.  As I said before, I've noticed that Paul didn't so much 
start from scratach as he took our PREEXISTING list and built ON it.  So the 
things that have changed, I actually know enough about why they were placed in 
the first place to be able to comment on them.

As I said before, I (like Sean) have a bias against absolute calendar placement 
of the MU.  My viewpoint on your post, Paul, is that if it works, keep it in, 
but if it doesn't work, the calendar should compromise to the flow of the story 
and the logic of the character-appearance interaction.  (I'm pretty sure you 
feel similarly, given all the "let's just ignore that" bits you've thrown in 
here.)

So, in general, I'm wowed by the effort and scope of this list of yours.  All 
glory to you, and all that.  Now, let me get specific and point out the bits 
I *didn't * like

> Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36 -- September 11.
> ** Is Hawkeye likely to appear here in the short time between TB 49 and 50?*

I don't see why not  it was a national emergency, after all, and I'm sure that 
all inactive Avengers are required to touch base and see if they're needed in 
this type of situation.  We only see him for one panel, after all.  He could 
have helped out and scooted.

> Avengers v3 #38 ~ X-Men #111 -- Quicksilver leaves Genosha. Cap interviewed 
about Magneto.
> ** Occurring "six weeks" after A3 37, A3 38 is supposed to occur in "winter," 
but it features "unseasonably warm and sunny"weather in New York.  Maybe we 
should just ignore the winter reference and go with the warm and sunny 
reference.**

Well, if you felt like taking my advice about shifting the CA3 #50/1 ~ IM3 
#50-FB Christmas back to correspond to the X #109 Christmas, then A3 #38 and 
X #111 would fall in verrry late December or early January.  Then, like I said, 
the "warm winter" reference here could make all the "green trees/fall foliage" 
stuff a bit easier to swallow.

'Course, you'd have to move Captain Marvel #13-25 back to this point as well

> ** Fantastic Four v3 #38**
> ** Fantastic Four v3 #39**
> Fantastic Four v3 #40
> ** Judging from the news coverage of the return of the Baxter Building in 
FF3 40, Id say that FF3 40 continues from FF3 38-39.**

That works for me  but, are #38-39 separate from what came before them, or 
are there dagling links that tie the issues to the Grey Gargoyle story?  If 
so, the #35-39 arc could feasibly by separated from #40-45 by saying that the 
press was gathered for the OPENING TO THE PUBLIC of the Baxter Building

> Avengers: Celestial Quest 
> ** These eight issues occur over the course of a couple of days.  It is 
supposed to be "five years" after A 128, but it must be quite a bit longer.  
Dont get me started on the overall passage of Marvel Time.**

Five SPACE YEARS!  Five Cotati years!  Five goddamn-Marvel-Time-headache 
years!

> Iron Man v3 #40
> ** Im assuming that this is just the end portion of this issue, which 
occurs "a few weeks" after the beginning. (The beginning continues directly 
from IM3 37-39.)**

Good assumption  I only put #40 on the list because I figured Iron Man 
wouldn't go too long without some form of armor up and running.

Can I get some info on the storyline in #37-40?  I have heard something about 
Ultron, but surely that can't be right

> [**MOVED**] Thunderbolts #51-52, Life Sentences
> [**MOVED**] Citizen V and the V-Battalion #1-3

As I mentioned before, CV #2 takes place during a time period when Attuma 
rules Atlantis, which puts it AFTER D2 #2  Namor being free to talk to the 
V-Battalion places it after D2 #4, which is the conclusion of the battle begun 
in #2.  And lest you think of moving D2 #1-4 BACK, let me point out that Iron 
Man's appearance in his retro armor in D2 #1 places it after IM3 #41, so you'd 
have to shift that back as well. 

> ** Captain America v3 #41-44**

Hey, I've been wondering about the content of these issues, and how they fit 
in.  Thanks, Paul.  Does the Cap 2001 Annual tie into any of these stories at 
all?  I had thought for some reason it was the climax of his battle with 
Proticide from #39 or so

> ** The full moon may be the same as that in TB:LS; if so, CA3 41-44 must 
occur right after TB 52, the end of Caps stint as mentor to the Redeemers.**

I'd go with that placement  that would put CA #40-44 between A3 #40-41, IM3 
#41-42, D2 #4-5, and TB #52-53.  By the way, Cap's stint with the 'Deemers 
isn't over until #54, but as noted in #53 he comes and goes to deal with other 
business.  #51-52, though, are one big arc for him.

> Defenders v2 #1 -- Iron Man seen on a TV screen wearing his retro armor.
> ** This must be a reference to only the end portion of this issue, which 
occurs "three weeks" after the beginning.**

Actually, this reference is pretty early in  it's during the opening bit where 
monsters are running rampant across New York.

> Fantastic Four Annual 2001
> ** This reference is to the first story in this issue, which occurs shortly 
after the second story.**

Good to know  thanks.

> ** X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001 (first story)**
> ** One day, "weeks" after XXM 4, which was part of a storyline that occurred 
in "summer."  There are green grass and trees in Sydney, where it is probably 
spring.**

As I said before, XX@01 takes place between XX 9-10.  It needs to be moved 
down.

> Fantastic Four v3 #46 -- Here, we have a reference to the UN having just 
blown up.
> ** This issue picks up right where the first story in FF 2001 left off, with 
the reference to the Galactus head having just been dumped in Manhattan.  The 
U.N. demolition has, indeed, just occurred as well, making the stories in FF3 
and A3 closely knit.**

I agree, but a point: the cops say that the UN has blown up and the Avengers 
ARE DEALING, present-tense, with it, and that the FF have JUST CARTED OFF, past 
tense, a Galactus head.  Plus, the next time we see the head, Reed has had it 
transported to the MOON.  I'm not so sure that the annual takes place the same 
day as the rest of the arc.  It could be as much as two days earlier

> ** Given the flow of action in these issues, Id say that A2001 occurs within 
A3 44 rather than between A3 43 and 44.

Well, since there's no character overlap, it doesn't matter  it's enough to 
say that it occurs in the space between the end of #43 and the wrap-up of #44.

> Incredible Hulk v3 #30-32 -- Banner is cured of ALS by Ant-Man and Mr. 
Fantastic. Thing and She-Hulk cameo. With Jennifer's world-trotting from China 
to France to NYC, we tried to keep this appearance relatively close to her 
other NYC appearance in FFv3 #50.
> ** I dont have these issues, so no comment.**

Me neither.  Sean had better not be lying to us!<p>> Fantastic Four v3 #51-54
> Franklin is "only seven," which just cant be right. (I still contend that 
Franklins reality-warping powers are causing him to remain eternally young 
and are preventing anyone from even noticing!).**

Sounds good to me.  Can we also say his powers have been messing with Kitty 
Pryde's age as well?  The two of them got pretty close on the FF/X-Men 
miniseries

> Black Panther #34-35
> Hulk #33 
> Black Panther #38-40

Sean, Paul, can anyone tell me why Hulk #33 takes place in-between BP3 #35 
and 38?  #35 left off with a cliffhanger revealing the "other" Black Panther 
embedded in crystal, and #38 picked up the thread  was Queen Divine Justice 
free to appear in Hulk #33 at any point in this arc?  I think the whole arc 
took place in Wakanda, and she was there until she stormed off in #40 and went 
home, wasn't she?

> Defenders v2 #8 
> ** The main body of this issue occurs the day after the flashback in this 
issue and "several days"after Def2 6.**

Paul, can you give me more precise info on the nature of the gap between D2 
#7-8?  I get that it's been a few days, but is there a window for all of the 
Defenders to appear in BP3 #34-35  especially given that D2 #8 is the search 
for the missing Surfer?

> ** Fantastic Four v3 #50 (third story)**
> ** Sue is not pregnant here, so I place this story after FF3 54.  It may 
make sense for this celebrity auction to occur before Tony Stark reveals that 
he is Iron Man.  And since Ben seems unsure about how to handle himself, this 
auction probably predates the one in Sweet Charity.**

Based on the retro art style, I had thought that this issue took place several 
years ago.  Are there any clues one way or the other?  (Damn, I'm lazy, I have 
the issue and don't feel like reading it.  Probably becaue I hate story #2 
with a burning passion.)

> [**MOVED**] Captain America v3 #49
> ** One day.  We see falling leaves in New York and jacket weather in Idaho.  
Because of this reference, and to move this before CA3 50 stories that Ive 
moved (below), Ive repositioned this issue on the list.**

I'm about to try to persuade you to move the Cap's death stories back where 
you found 'em.  This issue, though, is so nebulous you could really put it 
anywhere.

> ** [MOVED] Captain America v3 #50 (second story)**
> ** Green grass and trees in Arlington National Cemetery.**

I thought Cap was in France in this story?

> ** [MOVED] Captain America v3 #50 (fourth story)
> ** Caps "death."  (What was the whole point of this?)

I have no earthly idea.  For a brief second I thought that the end of Cap v4 
#4 was a flashback sequence to his death, but it turns out that it wasn't.  So 
it looks like we'll be forever explanationless.  Which only adds to my 
determination that Cap's bandages in A3 #45 be made into the only explanation 
we're ever gonna get: he was hurt bad.

> ** [MOVED] Captain America v 3 #50 (fifth story)**

Sixth.  Fifth was some Muslim boy getting beaten up.

> ** We see  Namor as sovereign of Atlantis.

Which doesn't happen until D2 #11.  No, this is not an excuse to move D2 #11 
back.

> Apparently those softies at Seagate granted Hawkeye leave to attend Caps 
funeral, although why they let him suit up is anyones guess.

Yep  that doesn't make too much sense, does it?  Perhaps Hawkeye showed up 
from a DIFFERENT point in his chronology then  (And technically, he wasn't 
at the funeral  he was being interviewed about Cap's death.)

> Given this, Hawkeye would have to be here before TB 53, the day before his 
engineered escape from Seagate.

Not necessarily.  You moved Cap #50 back all this way solely for Hawkeye's 
benefit, didn't you?  Just to slot him in before his Seagate escape?  Well, 
there are other, better places in Clint's chronology to put this, without 
having him be let out of prison every time something big happens

You already have T-Bolts issue up through #62 taking place before the Kang 
War.  I see that you used the unspecified time gap between #62-63 to slip the 
war into, but given Hawkeye and Songbird's situations, it seems ridiculous to 
put the conquering of the USA and imprisoning of all superheroes into this 
gap, then have it all cleaned up and have Hawk still on the lam with three 
crooks, and Songbird still chasing them on SHIELD's behalf, like nothing had 
happened.

To me it makes better sense if you slot the Kang War into the three-week gap 
between TB #63 and 65.  By that point there was a resolution of sorts:  Hawk 
had been liberated from the chain gang and reunited with Songbird, and he had 
his costume back.  Cyclone had been (finally) captured and Plant-Man was 
willing to help.  When we next see them, they're in Paris  there's enough of 
an opening there to say that SHIELD held onto Cyclone and Plant-Man while Hawk 
and Songbird fought the Kang War  then, at its conclusion, the heroes 
collected the villains and continued the covert op (which is on SHIELD's 
behalf anyway).  I mean, forget calendars  where would YOU put a world event 
that the T-Bolts would likely try to have a hand in?  Between #62/63?  Or 
#63/65?

Anyway, what I'm saying is that if you put the War after #63, Hawkeye will be 
free and costumed, and you can bring Cap #50 DOWN to this point  which would 
do two things for Cap:  put it after D2 #11 without having to move D2 #11, and 
link it up pretty much right next to A3 #45, in which Cap appears to have 
taken the worst beating we've ever seen, and is discussing RADIATION and 
health-related topics with the General.)

So  c'mon.  Move Cap #50/4-6 back down where we had 'em.  Cahmaaaaaahn.  ;)

> ** X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #1-4**
> I would contend that the cat-like Beast makes his first appearance here, 
before New X-Men #114.

Agreed, for the same reason:  XX #5 comes too closely after X 3116.

> [**MOVED**] Iron Man v3 #46
> ** Im inclined to go with Toms comment that the Yellowjacket costume was 
in the wash.  Its a lot easier to believe that than to fabricate an elaborate 
explanation for Ultron being in two places at once (although I must say, the 
explanation was inspired!).  My rule of thumb is to go for the easy solution 
and not manipulate plot.  Besides, dividing IM3 46 between pages 15 and 16 
means that it took em quite a while to examine Sun Tao, and they kept him in 
the armor the whole time!**				

Well, you know, the Sun Tao thing COULD have happened  in all likelihood the 
armor was booby-trapped, and it took Tony a while to get around it.

Using your calendar stuff on my version of the list (which goes IM3 #46 p.1-15, 
A:UI, CA3 #45-48, IM3 #46 pp.16-22), that gives us nine or ten days' separation 
between the parts of the issue if we left things my way.  And that's juuuust 
believable in terms of Sun Tzu's capture (well, in the same sense that 
elsewhere on this list you want me to believe that Sage has been catatonic for 
a month between XX #8-9).

I've argued earlier about the importance of keeping Hank Pym's costume 
straight, as his costume choices equal his sanity these days.  At first I 
was against it like you, but Sean convinced me of its vital importance in 
Hank's life.  And now I'm going to make him convince you.

Sean, sic him!

In any case, I'd argue passionately that our placement, although strained, is 
within the bounds of reason  which is more important to you, Ultron (a 
villain, and one who [a] can be two places at once and [b] lies to people), or 
Hank Pym, a hero, a major character with a major story arc focusing on his 
deliberate choice of costumed identity?

Again, my Ultron rationale:  you say he needs time to build his cult following, 
but as far as the cultists go, it's a following of Professor Yinsen's brain in 
the sentient armor, right?  Now, seeing as Ultron was responsible for bringing 
the arnor to "life" in the first place, it stands to reason that a 
preprogrammed part of him was inside running the show.  This part could easily 
have been building a cult following, masquerading as Yinsen, since Tony buried 
the armor in IM3 #30.  It's interesting to note that the cult only came to the 
fore (IM3 #46 p.1) at about the same time as Alkhema's children are 
subconsciously rebuilding Ultron's body (BTS prior to A:UI), isn't it?  Almost 
as if, by the time Antigone runs off with Ultron's head, his forces await only 
his "rejoining" of the head with the armor (happening BTS in the week CA3 
#45-48 are occuring, and it took that long because the childish Antigone needed 
severe convincing) to kick the cult into high gear (which they did in IM3 #46 
p.19).

Sean, sic him until he gives in.  Like you did me.

> [**MOVED**] Thunderbolts #53
> ** Caps back from the dead without fanfare or explanation.  It is only "two 
days" before TB 54, so this issue should be moved down closer to TB 54.**

I agree about moving the two issues closer together, but I disagree about the 
concept of Cap just being "resurrected" with no comment.  He's CAPTAIN AMERICA 
and there needs to be SOME comment on his return.  And A3 #45 is the only thing 
that comes close.

> ** Thunderbolts #60**

TB #60 also includes a cameo of the V-Battalion, as a lead-in to their second 
series.  I placed this series during the gap between TB #62 and 63.  CV2 #3-4 
feature the Avengers in South America, repelling Ultimatum's forces.  Cap, 
Vision, and Warbird are shown.  Alpha Flight is also in Greenland, doing the 
same.

> Avengers v3 #45
> We also have Cap severly bandaged up throughout the issue. While the dialogue 
suggests this was from his being turned into a zombie, Jeph and I think it 
makes more sense if he got the injuries from a real explosion (CAv3 #50), 
rather than radiation (Av3 #44).

> ** My explanation: in TB 58, while Graviton lowered the suspended heroes 
like snow, Cap got dropped hard.  Poor Cap just cant get a break  first he 
"dies," now hes injured..**

Funny!, but I don't buy it.  When we first see Cap, bandaged and floating 
and talking with the general, they're discussing the battle with the Presence, 
and how the radiation affected the heroes.  Quicksilver's already healed, Cap 
says, and the Black Knight is still convalescing.  (BTW, this means that no 
BK appearance can go between A3 #44-45.)  My question is, why are they 
discussing this?  I mean, Busiek has them doing it because that's why Cap is 
injured, but with all that we've placed between the issues, that can't be the 
case.  Likely, they're talking about it because the conversation drifted from 
its original topic of Cap's injuries

I'm sticking by my idea that Cap's injuries are physical AND radiation-
induced  and the only place he could have gotten them is from being caught 
in that mini-nuke in Cap #50.

> Avengers v3 #50-51
> [51] begins "weeks" after A3 48, so there must be a time gap between A3 50 
and 51.

Actually, the time gap is IN #50  the Avengers are captured, asleep in the 
pyramid, for quite some time  they say "weeks", I believe.

> Wed be hard pressed to put other published stories in this gap, as Kang 
has conquered a good chunk of the world and there are no other references to 
this state of affairs in other titles.**

Thunderbolts #64 and 66, baby!  Fun on Counter-Earth!  ;)

> **X-Treme X-Men #5**
> ** Xaviers TV appearance from New X-Men #116 is rebroadcast here.**

Not necessarily  it could simply be a recording being played in the amazing 
Red Sunglasses that all the X-Tremers have.  There seems to be a lot of data 
all at once.

> ** Thunderbolts #63**
> ** TB 63 begins an undisclosed time after TB 62.  During this time it is 
possible for Kangs dominion over the world to occur while Hawkeye is on the 
lam and Songbird is tracking him.

Like I said above, given Hawkeye's situation (chained to three criminals), 
it's doubtful they could have survived weeks of hiding in a Kang-owned USA 
with constant sweeps for supertypes, and still left a consistent trail for 
Songbird to follow.  I think putting the War between #63-65 fits much better.

> **[MOVED]** Avengers v3 #55 -- Three weeks after Av3 #54. Thor returns. 
Rebuilding has been taking place; presumably, more vitally important command 
structures (like the White House) were worked on first.
> ** Ive moved this up on the list, as it likely occurs before the last page 
of T2 32.**

True.  I'm not sure where it's been moved "up" from, though  the only thing 
in-between it and #54 is the Peter Parker silent issue.

> ** Thor v2 #32 (last page)**
> ** I propose that a time gap exists between the last two pages of this 
issue.  All but the last page is linked to Maximum Security, which predates 
9/11, and the last page starts us on a continuous ride that takes us to Odins 
death, which must postdate A3 55.

Wow.  I knew that the Thor storyline had to be kept complete, but I thought 
it only reached back as far as issue #37 and his battle with that armored 
thing.  Are you SURE there are no other gaps between #32 and #39?

I had originally thought of putting Thor's A3 #56-FB and XX #11 appearances 
before the start of the "death of Odin" arc, but I had no idea the arc reached 
back that far!  And what with the "Maximum Security was a couple of weeks ago" 
reference in #33, it wouldn't be too good to place the issue after the Kang 
war and Khan invasion, would it?

I guess that means that your gap between Thor #42-43 is the way to go for 
those two appearances, eh?  Hmm.  His XX #11 appearance is in one panel, 
hiding behind a word balloon  I'll have to check his A3 #56-FB appearance.  
If he's too jolly, or if he says "All-Father Odin", your theory's shot to 
hell.  But if he's grim or sad-looking, I'll run with it.

By the way, I'd reverse the order of XX #10-17 and A3 #56-FB, putting the 
Avengers issue first.  Why?  First off, it gives the White House more time 
to be rebuilt (it's shown in XX #11), and secondly, XX #17 is more or less 
"current"  it's going to lead into a crossover with present-day "New X-Men" 
next issue, and bringing the whole Khan arc closer to our relative "present" 
is a good thing.  Whereas, the FB in A3 #56 is to a "month" prior to the 
relative present.

My take on it is that Thor dropped in to change his status (A3 #56 lists him 
as "active at time of mission") and got roped into the Elements of Doom 
battle.  Then when that was put to bed, the Khan reports came in, but Thor 
said "listen, folks  enough's enough  Asgard needs me and you can handle 
this without me."  That would explain why Thor's in the briefing room in XX 
#11, but not seen on-site in Madripoor.

> Peter Parker #37 -- It's snowing absurdly hard...
> ** And theres wind chill of -50 degrees!  Schools are closed because of 
the storm, so this story does not occur during the holiday/new year break.**

Have you thought of putting this storm alongside the "Cask of Ancient Winters" 
snowfall in Thor #31?

> ** New X-Men #117**
> ** One night.  It must be long enough after New X-Men #116 for mutants to 
gather and enroll at Xaviers.  We see bare and green trees and the weather 
seems mild.**

Actually, we have no idea how long has passed between #116-117.  In #114, 
Professor X says "new school term starts Monday", implying that the students 
are already enrolled and ready to begin classes within a week.  On the other 
hand, nothing in #117 says how long class has been in session.  The most we 
get as a clue is that Wolverine has been meditating for four days to cleanse 
the pain of having his arm burnt off in #116.  But, given that he appeared in 
the annual (between #116-117)without any noticable pain or handicap, this 
isn't an absolute clue either.

> ** X-Treme X-Men #9**
> ** One day. Given the events of NXM, it may be a month after XXM 8, during 
which time Sage has been catatonic.

Hard to swallow this, but it's also hard to line XX #5 up with X #116, then 
line issue #9 up with X #123.  There's gaps somewhere in the XX storyline, 
but where?

> ** Captain Marvel v4 #22**
> ** Captain Marvel v4 #23**	
> ** Captain Marvel v4 #24**			
> ** Captain Marvel v4 #25**
> ** CM4 22-25 occur over the course of a day. "Its almost Christmas."**

Are you planning to slide these back to the "new Christmas" placement of X 
109?  Can you actually squeeze CM #13-25 into that spot?  (IIRC, CM 312 was 
a Maximum Security crossover.)

Speaking of Genis, once you decide where these issues are going, is there a 
good gap or two in his series to place his appearances in TB #46-47, TB:LS, 
FF3 #46 and IA #1-6?

> Captain America v3 #50 (**first story**)
> **The stories in CA3 50 cannot appear in order.  The first story, which 
begins on Christmas Eve and spills into Christmas morning, must occur after 
all the other stories in this issue.**

Except that you just decided that Christmas was back in X #109.  Now the 
stories are in order again.  ;)

I'm anxious to see how things all fall onto a NEW calendar, given that our 
"starting point" is in December rather than September.

And yes, I'm absolutely willing to believe that the MU WTC disaster occurred 
on a different date than September the 11th.

> ** X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001 (second story)**
> ** One night.  Full moon, perhaps the same one as in XXM 10-17 and UX 
401-407.  This story must occur before the first story in XMU 36.*

That's not a full moon  it's an image on a screen of Hammer Bay before the 
Sentinel attack.  It appears again in Kitty's apartment in XU #36.

> Avengers v3 #56 (flashback)
> ** Thor is still putting his earthly affairs in order here, very shortly 
after X-Treme X-Men #11.  He gets pulled into the battle with the Elements 
of Doom, and then returns to Asgard to assume the throne.

Like I said above, I think XX #10-17 and A3 #56-FB work best in the OPPOSITE 
order.

> After this point, word spreads that Thor has assumed the throne of Asgard, 
so this flashback must occur before BP3 41.  Thors lack of beard and classic 
costume support this placement.  The Beasts cat-like appearance confirms that 
this flashback occurs after X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #1-4 and probably New 
X-Men #114-116.**

> Black Panther v3 #43
> ** Uh oh!  Maybe its just the angle, but...is Sue Richards pregnant here 
on page 1?  If so, this messes everything up!  Maybe its just an unflattering 
pose...yeah, thats it.**

Uhm  she's pretty clearly not pregnant in that shot.  She's leaning back in 
her chair  and yeah, it IS unflattering art.  But I clearly see what's 
supposed to be the distinction between her ribcage and her ab muscles.

> ** Amazing Spider-Man Annual 2001**
> ** One day and into the next morning "a week" after PP 39.  It is after a 
presidential election.**

Again  isn't this issue the wrap-up of the "kidnapped MJ" saga?  I remember 
the wrap-up being polybagged so I could never read it in-store, but I don't 
remember what it was.

> ** TB 67 occurs "twelve weeks" after the flashback shown on page 5, which 
itself occurs shortly after TB 56.  This means that TB 67 occurs three months 
after TB 56.  The question is: did Hawkeye really spend a couple of months 
training and building trust with his new team of Thunderbolts before entering 
Symkaria?  Could they afford that much time?**

I guess they did.  All hail absolute calendar placement!  ;)

> ** Thunderbolts #69**		
> ** Thunderbolts #71**
> ** TB 69 and 71 follow from TB 67 as TB alternates between two separate 
storylines.**

> Iron Man v3 #53
> ** One day.**
> Iron Man v3 #54
> ** This issue begins the same day as IM3 53 and ends "ten days" later.**

Now, which is the IM issue where Pepper gets badly beaten?  I'm working on a 
version of things that has IM3 #51-52 before BP3 #41-45 and IM3 #53-up after 
it, but that won't hold up if Pepper is hurt in #52 or back.

> Daredevil v2 #32
> ** I dont have this issue, but if we need to place this more than three 
months after 9/11, we may want to consider that Matt is "outed" after Steve 
and Tony.**

Possibly, although I rather like Sean's idea that DD is first and as such 
gets the lion's share of attention.  ("He's BLIND, and he fights crime!", 
screams the Bugle  ahh, that never gets old.)

I had thought we could place it almost EXACTLY three months after 9/11  say 
mid-to-late January.  Although, I'm also inclined to try to place Spidey's 
appearance in DD2 #35 relatively close to his presnt-day self.  For no very 
good reason at all, mind you, except that Russ will probably want a damned 
good reason not to do it that way.

> ** Captain America: Dead Men Running #1**
> ** Captain America: Dead Men Running #2**
> ** Captain America: Dead Men Running #3**
> ** Placement here, between the fourth story in CA3 50 and CA4 1, is based 
on publication chronology for Cap issues.**

Agreed.  In terms of Avengers, anywhere between #54 and #57 seems like it 
would work for Cap.  Maybe we should use these to pad out what he's been doing 
in that month between A3 #56-FB and the main story?
>  ** Captain America Annual 2001**
> ** In ASM@ 2001, we have a reference to it being after a presidential 
election, and here we have a reference to a president (depicted as Dubya) who 
has been on the job only "a few months."  Assuming presidents in the Marvel 
Universe are inaugurated in January, that would place this story around 
April.  Caps identity is still a secret, so this story must occur before 
CA4 1, which is an Easter story.**

Unless we move the Spider-Man annual back a year.  Back, from the election 
that claimed the life of Senator Kelly, TO the election that claimed the life 
of Graydon Creed?

(See, THAT RIGHT THERE is why I think presidents are elected once a year in 
the MU.)

> ** Uncanny X-Men Annual 2001**

> ** This story likely occurs during the gap between UX 407 and 408.  No 
temporal references here, so I just plopped it here where things seem a bit 
thin, for now anyway.**

At the time of its publication, it seemed to fit right between UX #400-401.  
I don't see why that should have changed.

> ** Spider-Man: Sweet Charity #1**
> ** A span of five days  We also have to leave enough time for Hawkeye to 
finish his covert assignment in Thunderbolts to appear here.

I'm not even PLACING this on a chronology until TB #75 comes out.

By the way, you may have notice my comments dropping off after the Kang war.  
The main reason is that I feel it's relatively foolish to try to place recent 
issues of comics.  I generally need about four months of hindsight to look 
back at the MU and see, in the larger context, how the pieces fit  and the 
various ways they can be reassembled.  For this reason, I've been trying to 
stay clear of the "who unmasked first?" debate  why don't we WAIT UNTIL BOTH 
ARCS ARE OVER (DD2 #38 and CA4 #6), and then see?

My main concerns all along have been the X-books and the unraveling of the 
Kang war proper.  This project has blossomed out-of-control for me and while 
I'm loving every minute, I'm trying to keep my parameters under control.  (I 
recently had to talk myself out of backtracking all the way to "Maximum 
Security".)  I dont think I can adequately place where arcs of "The Hulk" 
and "Daredevil" go in relation to each other, because there's no character 
overlap and no evidence at all one way or the other.  But, in a few months, 
there might be.  THAT'S when I'll leap out from the MCP board shadows and 
strike, like the venomous cobra I am.

For now, here's a list of books that I have NO plot or chronology references 
on, and would appreciate some input:

Amazing Spidey #30-31
Peter Parker #30-36
Black Panther v3 #31-33
Thor Annual 2001 (or is it Hulk annual 2001?  the one where they fight.)
Hulk #24-29
X-Men Unlimited #35 (the only X-book in here I don't have)
Captain Marvel v5 #12-35  (not asking much, I know)
Tigra #1-4  it has some Cap appearances  where does it fit?  When was it 
published?  (See, THESE are the times I like to go by publication dates.)

And I could use clarification on:

The gap in Defenders v2 #7-8
How there can be no gaps in Thor #32-42
Where does Pepper Potts get injured?
Plot details of the Cap and ASM 2001 Annuals?

Okay, Sean and Paul  you have my reply  go at it!!

Talk to you soon.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Jeph's reply, part two
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 23, 2002 at 05:22:05:
In Reply to: Jeph's reply, part two
posted by Jeph! on August 22, 2002 at 23:05:14:

<<Sean, Paul, can anyone tell me why Hulk #33 takes place in-between BP3 #35 
and 38?  #35 left off with a cliffhanger revealing the "other" Black Panther 
embedded in crystal, and #38 picked up the thread  was Queen Divine Justice 
free to appear in Hulk #33 at any point in this arc?  I think the whole arc 
took place in Wakanda, and she was there until she stormed off in #40 and 
went home, wasn't she?>>

I thought QDJ was at the Wakandan Embassy in the USA in BP3 39-40.  Am I 
seriously misreading?

If I was right about that, then there's no gap for her to appear in Hulk #33 
until the present issue (where it can fit between some of the flashbacks with 
no difficulty - they appear to span a lengthy period).  Given that no 
subsequent issues of Hulk interact with anything, is this not simpler?

			*	*	*

QDJ
Posted by Jeph! on August 23, 2002 at 09:05:06:
In Reply to: Re: Jeph's reply, part two
posted by Paul O'Brien on August 23, 2002 at 05:22:05:

> I thought QDJ was at the Wakandan Embassy in the USA in BP3 39-40.  Am I 
seriously misreading?

Beats me.  I don't own the issues.  Where is she in the Hulk issue?

> If I was right about that, then there's no gap for her to appear in Hulk #33 
until the present issue (where it can fit between some of the flashbacks with 
no difficulty - they appear to span a lengthy period).  Given that no 
subsequent issues of Hulk interact with anything, is this not simpler?

I'm not sure if that's simpler, given how broken up QDJ is in the latest 
"Panther".  I was leaning towards moving Hulk #33 back, say between BP3 
#33-34.

Of course, I don't have the issues, making this sort of decision difficult.  
I'm throwing darts in the dark here.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: QDJ
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 23, 2002 at 09:33:37:
In Reply to: QDJ
posted by Jeph! on August 23, 2002 at 09:05:06:

> Beats me.  I don't own the issues.  Where is she in the Hulk issue?

Wakanda.  Moreover, she refers to having met the Man-Ape.  She met him for 
the first time in the storyline ending in BP3 38, so Hulk #33 has to take 
place after that storyline.

In BP3 39 (from memory) we're told that the cast flew to Wakanda to drop off 
the Man-Ape and then went straight on to New York, taking QDJ with them.  
That doesn't leave time for her to appear in Hulk #33.

But it fits in very nicely between flashbacks in the current issue of Black 
Panther, I think.  The flashbacks in Wakanda after they return can span a 
lengthy period.  She seems very perky and upbeat in the first flashback with 
Vibraxas.  Hulk #33 could comfortably fit around there.

			*	*	*

Re: QDJ
Posted by SKleefeld on August 23, 2002 at 11:59:35:
In Reply to: Re: QDJ
posted by Paul O'Brien on August 23, 2002 at 09:33:37:

> > Beats me.  I don't own the issues.  Where is she in the Hulk issue?

> Wakanda.  Moreover, she refers to having met the Man-Ape.  She met him for 
the first time in the storyline ending in BP3 38, so Hulk #33 has to take 
place after that storyline.

> In BP3 39 (from memory) we're told that the cast flew to Wakanda to drop 
off the Man-Ape and then went straight on to New York, taking QDJ with them.  
That doesn't leave time for her to appear in Hulk #33.

> But it fits in very nicely between flashbacks in the current issue of Black 
Panther, I think.  The flashbacks in Wakanda after they return can span a 
lengthy period.  She seems very perky and upbeat in the first flashback with 
Vibraxas.  Hulk #33 could comfortably fit around there.

In all honesty, i couldn't figure a good place to put this issue, so I dropped 
it in a convient hole where we've got 2 "missing" issues of Black Panther. I've 
never been keen on that placement and hadn't studied the issue hard enough to 
find a better spot for it.

Your analysis here works for me!  :)

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Jeph's reply, part two
Posted by SKleefeld on August 23, 2002 at 14:15:21:
In Reply to: Jeph's reply, part two
posted by Jeph! on August 22, 2002 at 23:05:14:

OK, I've finally gor a  chance to go over Paul's list. It's a lot closer to 
mine than i initially thought! And most of the deviations seem to stem from 
some basic differences in how we interpreted the stories.

So, on wit' me t'oughts!

> 'Course, you'd have to move Captain Marvel #13-25 back to this point as 
well

Besides the XMas references, Paul, is there anything preventing these issues 
from occurring earlier on your list? I'm just looking for a sense of what 
other problems we might be dealing with by moving XMas around.

(Isn't it great to work in an environment where you can just move holidays 
around like that?)

> That works for me  but, are #38-39 separate from what came before them, or 
are there dangling links that tie the issues to the Grey Gargoyle story?  If 
so, the #35-39 arc could feasibly by separated from #40-45 by saying that the 
press was gathered for the OPENING TO THE PUBLIC of the Baxter Building

It almost HAS to be an after-the-fact ceremony. Remember, the Mayor sent down 
a liason to introduce and speak about the FF. The news crews would've been 
mostly over and done with by the time someone from the Mayor's office could 
scramble down there.

> Can I get some info on the storyline in #37-40?  I have heard something 
about Ultron, but surely that can't be right

It was Tony vs. his old friend Ty Stone(?). Lot of VR stuff that's led to 
this really annoying "is it real or isn't it" business.

> > ** Captain America v3 #41-44**

> Hey, I've been wondering about the content of these issues, and how they 
fit in.  

It was Cap and Nick Fury against Cap's girlfriend's dead brother. (ONLY in 
comics!) Fairly self-contained with the exception of the Cap-Ferrari soap 
opera.

> Does the Cap 2001 Annual tie into any of these stories at all?  I had 
thought for some reason it was the climax of his battle with Proticide from 
#39 or so

Quite correct. The annual doesn't relate to these stories appreciably.

> > Incredible Hulk v3 #30-32 -- Banner is cured of ALS by Ant-Man and Mr. 
Fantastic. Thing and She-Hulk cameo. With Jennifer's world-trotting from China 
to France to NYC, we tried to keep this appearance relatively close to her 
other NYC appearance in FFv3 #50.

> > ** I dont have these issues, so no comment.**

> Me neither.  Sean had better not be lying to us!

Would I do that to you guys?  :)

Seriously, this is mainly placed to coalesce She-Hulk's globe-trotting. She's 
in NYC for FFv3 #50, so let's keep her in NYC until she heads off for France.

> > ** [MOVED] Captain America v3 #50 (second story)**

> > ** Green grass and trees in Arlington National Cemetery.**

> I thought Cap was in France in this story?

He spends most of the story in France, and cuts his vacation short to fly 
back to Virginia for something like one panel.

> > [**MOVED**] Iron Man v3 #46
> > ** Im inclined to go with Toms comment that the Yellowjacket costume was 
in the wash.  Its a lot easier to believe that than to fabricate an elaborate 
explanation for Ultron being in two places at once (although I must say, the 
explanation was inspired!).  My rule of thumb is to go for the easy solution 
and not manipulate plot.  Besides, dividing IM3 46 between pages 15 and 16 
means that it took em quite a while to examine Sun Tao, and they kept him in 
the armor the whole time!**

> Well, you know, the Sun Tao thing COULD have happened  in all likelihood 
the armor was booby-trapped, and it took Tony a while to get around it.

> Using your calendar stuff on my version of the list (which goes IM3 #46 p.
1-15, A:UI, CA3 #45-48, IM3 #46 pp.16-22), that gives us nine or ten days' 
separation between the parts of the issue if we left things my way.  And 
that's juuuust believable in terms of Sun Tzu's capture (well, in the same 
sense that elsewhere on this list you want me to believe that Sage has been 
catatonic for a month between XX #8-9).

> I've argued earlier about the importance of keeping Hank Pym's costume 
straight, as his costume choices equal his sanity these days.  At first I 
was against it like you, but Sean convinced me of its vital importance in 
Hank's life.  And now I'm going to make him convince you.

> Sean, sic him!

Look out! I'm all over this now, baby!

Here's the problem: by altering the order of any of Hank's appearance that 
we're talking about (from the list Jeph and I devised), you'll wind up with 
at least two extra costume changes. Now, if we were talking about the Wasp, 
that's fine. Hell, she's changed costumes three or four times in one issue 
before! But Hank's character and identity is visually manifested through his 
costume. As Goliath, he doesn't act the same as Yellowjacket and vice-versa. 
So having him switch around repeatedly doesn't really fit his character(s).

But then we have the Ultron problem. Ultron clearly appears in Ultron 
Imperative before Iron Man v3 #46-48. But we have Yellowjacket in A:UI 
and Goliath in IM3. Now, since Hank definitely "reverts" to Goliath 
immediately after his cure in A@2001, that means we'd have him switch from 
Goliath (IM3 #43, A3 #44) to YJ (A:UI) to Goliath (IM #46) to YJ (TB #57, 
A3 #45+). 

It doesn't make sense in terms of the A@2001 story, though, because he's 
cleared his head and combined into a single personality. Why would he THEN 
waver on who he wants to be after that? By flip-flopping like that, he's 
indicating that he hasn't resolved himself AS WAS EXPRESSLY SHOWN IN A@2001. 

Believe me, Jeph and I looked for ways around this. We tried pushing A:UI 
way up into September (to use your calendar) or after IM3 #48. It just doesn't 
work. The only thing that really clicks is by extending the break that's 
already inherent in IM3 #46 to longer than was intended. Yeah, that means 
Sun Tao ends up being on a slab in armor for longer than we'd like, but I 
don't think Hank throwing his YJ gear in the wash (metaphorically speaking) 
makes sense for his character.

> I agree about moving the two issues closer together, but I disagree about 
the concept of Cap just being "resurrected" with no comment.  He's CAPTAIN 
AMERICA and there needs to be SOME comment on his return.  And A3 #45 is the 
only thing that comes close.

This was another debate Jeph and I had going for a while. My initial arguement 
was that there is no mention of Cap's death anywhere, so we can drop it 
anywhere. But it makes some kind of sense in the context of A3 #45 at least, 
and makes more sense than the explanation we're given in that story for Cap's 
bandages.

> > ** My explanation: in TB 58, while Graviton lowered the suspended heroes 
like snow, Cap got dropped hard.  Poor Cap just cant get a break  first he 
"dies," now hes injured..**

I don't buy this either. I don't doubt Gravi COULD do that, but why just Cap? 
If we were talking about the Red Skull, sure. But Graviton's not exactly in 
Cap's rogue's gallery.

> I guess that means that your gap between Thor #42-43 is the way to go for 
those two appearances, eh?  Hmm.  His XX #11 appearance is in one panel, 
hiding behind a word balloon  I'll have to check his A3 #56-FB appearance.  
If he's too jolly, or if he says "All-Father Odin", your theory's shot to 
hell.  But if he's grim or sad-looking, I'll run with it.

Actually, referencing Odin in any way wouldn't discount this placement. Thor's 
been using phrases like "Od's Blood!" for hundreds of years. He could easily 
say them out of habit anymore. How many times have we seen a clean-shaven 
Hercules shout "By my beard"?

And, as far as jovality goes, that's irrelevant too. If Thor is happy -- which 
I think he is actually -- he could be just thrilled that he's in the heat of 
battle and is able to forget about his father's death for a little while.

> > Black Panther v3 #43
> > ** Uh oh!  Maybe its just the angle, but...is Sue Richards pregnant here 
on page 1?  If so, this messes everything up!  Maybe its just an unflattering 
pose...yeah, thats it.**

> Uhm  she's pretty clearly not pregnant in that shot.  She's leaning back in 
her chair  and yeah, it IS unflattering art.  But I clearly see what's 
supposed to be the distinction between her ribcage and her ab muscles.

I agree. I had to look at that shot for a while to determine whether or not 
she was preggers there too.

> Now, which is the IM issue where Pepper gets badly beaten?  I'm working on 
a version of things that has IM3 #51-52 before BP3 #41-45 and IM3 #53-up 
after it, but that won't hold up if Pepper is hurt in #52 or back.

Survey Says...
Pepper got it in IM3 #54.

> By the way, you may have notice my comments dropping off after the Kang 
war.  The main reason is that I feel it's relatively foolish to try to place 
recent issues of comics.  I generally need about four months of hindsight to 
look back at the MU and see, in the larger context, how the pieces fit  and 
the various ways they can be reassembled.  For this reason, I've been trying 
to stay clear of the "who unmasked first?" debate  why don't we WAIT UNTIL 
BOTH ARCS ARE OVER (DD2 #38 and CA4 #6), and then see?

No, damn it! I must know NOW!

:)

I agree that we don't necessarily need to look at the current books, but 
since we're talking about an ongoing medium, with a constantly-changing 
status quo it's difficult to set a four-month (or 3 or whatever) cut off 
date. Take the current DD2 storyline. That's been going on since #26!

My point is that we should still be looking at current books to help analyze 
the older ones. And since we're looking at them anyway, we can start to piece 
together a "current" chronology... with the understanding that it's still 
fairly fluid.

> For now, here's a list of books that I have NO plot or chronology 
references on, and would appreciate some input:

> Amazing Spidey #30-31
> Peter Parker #30-36
> Black Panther v3 #31-33
> Hulk #24-29
> Tigra #1-4 

I've got these and just need to go through them. Tigra looks to be difficult 
because Cap's appearances are pretty ambiguous. There're hints of it 
occurring post 9-11, but I don't think it's solidly referenced at any point. 
There also has to be a HUGE gap in #4 because Greer goes through Police 
Academy training in its entirety between two pages.

I've actually got a lot of relatives stopping by this weekend, so I have to 
put all my books away for a while. (The guest room kind of exploded once I 
started getting into this mess.)

I don't think I'll have anything else to contribute until the middle of next 
week sometime. Til then...

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Info about Defenders and Captain Marvel
Posted by Don Campbell on August 24, 2002 at 12:59:48:
In Reply to: Jeph's reply, part two
posted by Jeph! on August 22, 2002 at 23:05:14:

> > Defenders v2 #8 
> > ** The main body of this issue occurs the day after the flashback in this 
issue and "several days"after Def2 6.**

> Paul, can you give me more precise info on the nature of the gap between 
D2 #7-8?  I get that it's been a few days, but is there a window for all of 
the Defenders to appear in BP3 #34-35  especially given that D2 #8 is the 
search for the missing Surfer?

I don't know if this is exactly what you wanted but here's my timeline for 
the whole DEFENDERS series, including the various flashbacks in their proper 
places.

DEF #9-FB: Thousands of years ago, Bloodstone defeated Orrgo the 
Unconquerable. (Just being thorough)

DEF #10-FB: The Headmen rescue Modok from another dimension. Since Modok's 
first adventure after returning to Earth was depicted in Iron Man/Captain 
America '98, this flashback actually occurred MANY "months ago."

DEF #3-FB: "Six months ago" Pluto went to Asgard to join forces with Lorelei 
the Ice Queen.

DEF #1 (pages 1-3): Hellcat meets a homeless man (Yandroth) who ambushes her 
and holds her captive for three weeks.

DEF #2-FB: Kyle Richmond finds "Val" wandering in the streets (a few weeks 
before DEF #2).

DEF #1 (pages 4 on): Various threats attack the world, Hellcat escapes and 
gets Nighthawk to help her call together the old Defenders team, they defeat 
Yandroth and he curses them.

DEF #2-4: Yandroth's curse activates for the first time, interrupting Namor's 
confrontation with Attuma. The stress of knowing that he has ALS has caused 
Bruce Banner to become Joe Fixit.  
The Defenders wind up battling Pluto and his hordes of the dead, another 
Valkyrie serves Pluto, "Val" turns out to really be Lorelei, the "new" 
Valkyrie chooses to be a heroine, the old Valkyrie shows up and gives Aragorn 
to the new Val, and the big four go their separate ways.

DEF #5-7: (a few weeks after DEF #1) Silver Surfer leaves for space. The 
lesser three (Hellcat, Nighthawk, Valkyrie) battle the Headmen. The second 
activation of the curse occurs just as Namor is about to pound Attuma's head 
in and as Doc Samson is talking to Banner about how his disappearances are 
interfering with his ALS treatments. The curse brings the big three to Red 
Raven's Sky Island where they fight first the Bi-Beast and then mystical 
monsters. Namor convinces them to attack Attuma in Atlantis and they do...but 
the curse stikes again and brings them to Hell-Eyes. Namor reluctantly agrees 
that they have to find the missing Silver Surfer and deal with the curse.

DEF #8-FB: (one day before DEF #8) The Silver Surfer is captured by Kree 
forces.

DEF #8 & 9: (these are two separate stories that take place concurrently, 
"several days" after DEF #5-7) In outer space, the big three defeat the Kree 
forces and free the Silver Surfer. On Earth, the lesser three discover that 
Modok, AIM and the Headmen are working together and can only watch in horror 
as the Headmen use Orrgo to...TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!

DEF #10: The big four return from space and team up with the lesser three. 
Together the seven Defenders manage to defeat the Headmen and Doc Strange 
uses Orrgo to return everything and everyone in the whole world to the state 
they were in before the Headmen changed them (but time is NOT reversed in 
doing so).

DEF #11: All seven Defenders finally get around to defeating Attuma and his 
minions and freeing Atlantis.

DEF #12A: The big four are summoned to fight a silent battle.

DEF #12B: After fighting a time-manipulating villain, the big four have had 
enough and confront Gaea about breaking the curse. When she refuses, they 
decide to take over the world themselves.

As I see it, there are only six gaps in the whole Defenders series. Between 
DEF #1 & 2 is out because the curse hasn't activated yet. Between DEF #4 & 5 
is possible but something Hellcat says in DEF #5 suggests that not much time 
has elapsed since DEF #4. Between DEF #7 & 8 is OUT because the Silver Surfer 
is off Earth and MIA. That leaves only three possible gaps: between DEF #10 & 
11, between DEF #11 & 12, or within DEF #12. Any one of them seems to fit but 
I'll leave it up to you.

By the way, how do Modok's appearances in Defenders #9-10 and Iron Man #44-45 
fit together? Just curious.

> Speaking of Genis, once you decide where these issues are going, is there a 
good gap or two in his series to place his appearances in TB #46-47, TB:LS, 
FF3 #46 and IA #1-6?

Here's a brief listing of Genis's chronology. I've broken CM #12-35 up into 
chunks of storyline that can't be split any further and I've listed any 
significant developments for each segment.

CM #12-13: Maximum Security tie-in. Genis battles Zey-Rogg and Una-Rogg.
>CM #14: Stand-alone issue. Genis recaps his previous series plus some stories 
that were never published.
CM #15-16: Genis battles Fredd and the Psycho-Man.
CM #17-19: Thor and Thanos guest star. Rick loses his left arm and is left in 
an aged state.
CM #20-21: Old Rick is suicidal. Genis battles Merlin Demonspawn and Grendel's 
Mother.
CM #22-25: To help Old Rick, Genis goes to Kree-Lar and ends up doing an 
errand in the Negative Zone for the Kree Supreme Intelligence.
CM #26: Christmas issue in which Rick gets his arm and youth back. Hurray!!
CM #27-30: "Time Flies" storyline. Rick now has a beard and mustache and short 
hair. Genis/Rick travel to the future and meet Spider-Man 2099 and the old 
Rick Jones from Hulk: Future Imperfect, and learn that Thanatos has always 
been an alternate Rick Jones.
CM #31: A sort of epilogue to "Time Flies" during which Moondragon reveals 
that Marlo now has the power of the "death wish." Rick/Genis return from the 
future.
CM #32-35: Marlo and Moondragon share a passionate kiss. Marlo joins Rick in 
the Microverse and gets kidnapped while Genis returns to Calculex and battles 
the reborn Magus. Elysius is revealed to be alive on Titan. Rick and Genis 
learn about that kiss and Rick/Genis leave the two of them on Calculex so that 
they can figure out what it means.

As you can see, there are eight gaps into which Captain Marvel's five out-of-
title guest appearances can fit but only two of them have any clear placement.  
Since Thunderbolts #45-47 begins as part of the Thunderbolts Maximum Security 
tie-in, that means that it must take place immediately after the MS tie-in in 
CM #12-13. And the whole Infinity Abyss limited series must take place after 
Thor meets a very-much-alive Thanos (CM #17) and after Rick regains his youth 
(CM #26) but before he grows his current beard and mustache (CM #27).

As for the other three appearances (Thunderbolts: Life Sentences, Thunderbolts 
#57-58 [as one of Graviton's captive heroes] and Fantastic Four #46), I can't 
really tell where they fit since Genis appears in those issues without any 
(visible) interaction with Rick. However, Moondragon and the Silver Surfer 
both appear with Genis in FF #46 and all three of them also appear in Infinity 
Abyss as well.

It may be helpful to consider the four storylines in which "Thanos" has 
appeared in the past few years.

THOR #25 - (before Maximum Security) "Thanos" is killed by Thor.

CAPTAIN MARVEL #17 - (after Maximum Security) Thor is surprised to find that 
Thanos is still alive. Since Jim Starlin drew this issue, we can assume that 
this is the real Thanos...right?

AVENGERS: CELESTIAL QUEST #1-8 - Since Thor is not surprised that "Thanos" is 
alive, these events must take place after CM #17-19.

INFINITY ABYSS #1-6 - (after Avengers: Celestial Quest) The Thanoses who 
appeared in Thor #25 and Avengers: Celestial Quest are revealed to have been 
defective clones. Since Rick Jones appears here as a clean-shaven young man, 
it must take place between CM #26 & 27.

I hope that this information helpful.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: Info about Defenders and Captain Marvel
Posted by Jeph! on August 24, 2002 at 13:32:11:
In Reply to: Info about Defenders and Captain Marvel
posted by Don Campbell on August 24, 2002 at 12:59:48:

Thaks, Don.  This IS helpful.

> DEF #1 (pages 1-3): Hellcat meets a homeless man (Yandroth) who ambushes her 
and holds her captive for three weeks.

> DEF #1 (pages 4 on): Various threats attack the world, Hellcat escapes and 
gets Nighthawk to help her call together the old Defenders team, they defeat 
Yandroth and he curses them.

Ah, so THIS is what Paul meant when he said that Iron Man's armor appearance 
is in the "latter half" of the issue.

> DEF #5-7: (a few weeks after DEF #1) Silver Surfer leaves for space.

> DEF #8-FB: (one day before DEF #8) The Silver Surfer is captured by Kree 
forces.

> DEF #8 & 9: (these are two separate stories that take place concurrently, 
"several days" after DEF #5-7) In outer space, the big three defeat the Kree 
forces and free the Silver Surfer. On Earth, the lesser three discover that 
Modok, AIM and the Headmen are working together and can only watch in horror 
as the Headmen use Orrgo to...TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!

> As I see it  Between DEF #7 & 8 is OUT because the Silver Surfer is off 
Earth and MIA.

You are right!  This is what I was afraid of, that their appearance in "Black 
Panther" wouldn't fit here.

Ah well, it's not that bad  on Paul's and my lists, BP #34-40 are pretty much 
right next to D2 #8-11.  I can just swap the order, putting the Panther issues 
between D2 #10-11 and everything will be fine.

> By the way, how do Modok's appearances in Defenders #9-10 and Iron Man #44-45 
fit together? Just curious.

At this point it looks like the Iron Man issues come first, then the Defenders 
issues.  Hopefully that works for Modok as well.

> > Speaking of Genis, once you decide where these issues are going, is there 
a good gap or two in his series to place his appearances in TB #46-47, TB:LS, 
FF3 #46 and IA #1-6?

> Here's a brief listing of Genis's chronology  As you can see, there are 
eight gaps into which Captain Marvel's five out-of-title guest appearances 
can fit but only two of them have any clear placement.  Since Thunderbolts 
#45-47 begins as part of the Thunderbolts Maximum Security tie-in, that means 
that it must take place immediately after the MS tie-in in CM #12-13.

Agreed.

And the whole Infinity Abyss limited series must take place after Thor meets 
a very-much-alive Thanos (CM #17) and after Rick regains his youth (CM #26) 
but before he grows his current beard and mustache (CM #27).

> As for the other three appearances (Thunderbolts: Life Sentences, 
Thunderbolts #57-58 [as one of Graviton's captive heroes] and Fantastic 
Four #46), I can't really tell where they fit since Genis appears in those 
issues without any (visible) interaction with Rick. However, Moondragon and 
the Silver Surfer both appear with Genis in FF #46 and all three of them also 
appear in Infinity Abyss as well.

Right  and, actually, "Life Sentences" occurs near the IA series and the FF3 
appearance as well.  All three are relatively quite close together.  Since IA 
and FF both involve Moondragon, I'd love to fit all three into the same gap.

By the way, Rick Jones appears in Cap v3 #50, beardless.  (Story #6, page #2, 
panel #6.)  At least, I THINK it's Rick Jones  it could easily be Peter 
Parker, the way it's drawn, but from the dialogue I'm fairly sure it's Rick.  
Now, there's a long-ish time between IA and Cap #50  is it possible to put 
everything from CM #26 back behind IA #1, and everything from CM #27-up ahead 
of Cap #50?  That would put CM's appearance in TB #57-58 in that same gap, by 
the way, but is it stretching things to make the gap between #26-27 that wide?  
Are there any in-book references that gainsay doing this?

(Although, pushing CM #26 way back like that should make Paul happy, as that'd 
make it easy to place #22-25 alongside the Christmas in X #109)

> I hope that this information helpful.

Absolutely.  Thank you.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Gap Between Captain Marvel #26-27
Posted by Don Campbell on August 24, 2002 at 19:00:39:
In Reply to: Re: Info about Defenders and Captain Marvel
posted by Jeph! on August 24, 2002 at 13:32:11:

> By the way, Rick Jones appears in Cap v3 #50, beardless.  (Story #6, page #2, 
panel #6.)  At least, I THINK it's Rick Jones  it could easily be Peter 
Parker, the way it's drawn, but from the dialogue I'm fairly sure it's Rick.  
Now, there's a long-ish time between IA and Cap #50  is it possible to put 
everything from CM #26 back behind IA #1, and everything from CM #27-up ahead 
of Cap #50?  That would put CM's appearance in TB #57-58 in that same gap, by 
the way, but is it stretching things to make the gap between #26-27 that wide?  
Are there any in-book references that gainsay doing this?

> (Although, pushing CM #26 way back like that should make Paul happy, as 
that'd make it easy to place #22-25 alongside the Christmas in X #109)

As far as I know, there are only two things that might indicate how much time 
passed between Captain Marvel #26 & 27. One is the fact that Rick goes from 
being clean-shaven in CM #26 to having a beard and mustache in CM #27. The 
other is a little bit of dialogue from the last page of CM #30. Marlo is 
telling JMS, "Maybe I'm a jinx!...For a microsecond, Rick and I were back 
together, and then bam, I botched it and sent him (down the toilet)." Since 
prematurely-aged Rick was estranged from Marlo until after he regained his 
youth (in CM #26) and Marlo accidentally flushed Starfox and Genis/Rick into 
the timestream (in CM #27), Marlo seems to be saying that very little time 
passed between those two events. Then again, she was pretty hysterical in 
that scene so maybe she was exaggerating the shortness of their time together.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: Gap Between Captain Marvel #26-27
Posted by Jeph! on August 24, 2002 at 19:43:22:
In Reply to: Re: Gap Between Captain Marvel #26-27
posted by Don Campbell on August 24, 2002 at 19:00:39:

> Marlo is telling JMS, "Maybe I'm a jinx!...For a microsecond, Rick and I 
were back together, and then bam, I botched it and sent him (down the toilet)." 
Since prematurely-aged Rick was estranged from Marlo until after he regained 
his youth (in CM #26) and Marlo accidentally flushed Starfox and Genis/Rick 
into the timestream (in CM #27), Marlo seems to be saying that very little 
time passed between those two events.

Then again, a microsecond of their togetherness doesn't seem to be enough time 
for Rick to have grown a beard.

Did we actually see Rick and Marlo reconcile in #26?  Maybe, he regained his 
youth, they hugged, end of issue.  Then there's a long long space in between 
#26-27, where they're having marital problems.  Cap dies (CA3 #50), Rick is 
interviewed (beardless), and realizes how precious life is.  He and Marlo 
make up for a microsecond or so, and then #27 begins and Rick and Genis get 
sucked down the toilet.

That's actually not much of a stretch when you think about it.  No moreso that 
any of the other stretches we've had to consider.

By the way, placing CM5 #27 after Cap #50 means that we're starting to get 
very close to the Kang War.  And while Genis might be lost in time for the 
duration of #27-31, Marlo, Moondragon and co. are left on earth, and in 
placing the Kang War, we have to find a spot that won't interrupt their 
ongoing plots.

Don, which do you think is a better spot to place a world-conquering war?  
Between CM #26-27, or between #31-32?

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Gap Between Captain Marvel #26-27
Posted by Don Campbell on August 25, 2002 at 11:19:02:
In Reply to: Re: Gap Between Captain Marvel #26-27
posted by Jeph! on August 24, 2002 at 19:43:22:

> Did we actually see Rick and Marlo reconcile in #26?  Maybe, he regained 
his youth, they hugged, end of issue.  Then there's a long long space in 
between #26-27, where they're having marital problems.  Cap dies (CA3 #50), 
Rick is interviewed (beardless), and realizes how precious life is.  He and 
Marlo make up for a microsecond or so, and then #27 begins and Rick and Genis 
get sucked down the toilet.

> That's actually not much of a stretch when you think about it.  No moreso 
that any of the other stretches we've had to consider.

I've found another reference to how much time passed between CM #26 & 27. In 
CM #29, Rick meets his old self in the Maestro's alternate future and says, 
"Aw, man, I don't believe this! I just get done with being a senior citizen 
and now I see myself looking like I should be hosting a cable horror 
anthology!" As with Marlo's "microsecond" comment, "just get done" seems to 
imply a relatively short period of time has passed since Rick regained his 
youth in CM #26. Of course, the intense emotions that Rick felt about being 
old could make him feel that however long it's been since he was old was not 
long enough (ie. too short a time).

As for the beardless Rick's appearance in one panel of CA3 #50's sixth story, 
I have my doubts as to whether that really is Rick. Sure, the dialogue suggests 
that it's him but he doesn't show up in the crowd scene on the last page and I 
have no doubt that Rick would have been invited and would have attended if he 
was able. One other thing. It's a small point but the character that you 
believe is Rick in CA3 #50 seems to have hair that it just a bit too dark. 
If you look at CM #25 or 26, Rick's hair seems to be more of a "reddish-brown" 
than just "brown." The "Rick" in CA #50 has "very dark brown" hair (ie. darker 
than Nomad's brown hair but lighter than Tony Stark's black hair). Of course, 
if you look at CM #27-35, Rick's hair and new mustache and beard seem to be 
black, not brown. Maybe a side-effect of Rick's youth being restored was that 
his hair got darker? Or maybe he just decided to dye it darker?

> By the way, placing CM5 #27 after Cap #50 means that we're starting to get 
very close to the Kang War.  And while Genis might be lost in time for the 
duration of #27-31, Marlo, Moondragon and co. are left on earth, and in 
placing the Kang War, we have to find a spot that won't interrupt their 
ongoing plots.

As for the time that elapsed for Marlo while Rick/Genis were lost in time, 
it seems to have been a very short time, no more than a few hours on the same 
day. After all, she does spend the entire time in her store's restroom. 
There's a caption in CM #29 that describes her waiting in the restroom as "the 
world's most leisurely-paced subplot." And since Marlo drops dead in CM #30 
and most of CM #31 is spent trying to revive her, I'd say that everything in 
CM #27-31 takes place in a single day. As for Moondragon, Marlo says (in CM 
#27) that she's "off on some mission" and she only returns in CM #31 to revive 
Marlo and to explain about her death-wish power.

> Don, which do you think is a better spot to place a world-conquering war?  
Between CM #26-27, or between #31-32?

Just to make things harder, CM #32 seems to begin quite soon after CM #31. 
The customers at Marlo's comic shop tell Rick to tell Marlo that they hope 
that she feels better soon, possibly indicating that she's been "out sick" 
since they saw her DEAD ON THE FLOOR in CM #31. Also, Moondragon is shown 
teaching Marlo focus and control so that she won't accidentally use the 
death wish to destroy everything. Considering how important such training 
would be, they probably would have begun as soon as possible, right?

If the Kang War HAS to take place sometime after CM #26, then I'd say that 
there's probably a bigger gap between CM #26 & 27 than between CM #31 & 32. 
However, I would like it better if it wasn't Rick in CA #50. By the way, CA 
#50 came out the same week as CM #26. Since Rick had been old-and-bearded for 
seven issues by then, that means that either the artist on CA #50 somehow knew 
that Rick was going to be young-and-beardless by the end of CM #26 OR...it 
wasn't meant to be Rick after all. Of course, it would be strange if Cap's 
one-time partner didn't appear anywhere in the story of Cap's funeral. However, 
most of the story is people being interviewed about how they feel about Cap's 
death and while most of the interviewees actually knew Cap, at least four are 
just "man-in-the street" type reactions. If Rick was still old and suicidally-
depressed when Cap supposedly died, he may not have wanted to have his 
reaction seen on TV or to attend a funeral that would just reinforce his 
depression about his aged state. Of course, that's just my opinion.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: Gap Between Captain Marvel #26-27
Posted by Jeph! on August 25, 2002 at 14:30:00:
In Reply to: Re: Gap Between Captain Marvel #26-27
posted by Don Campbell on August 25, 2002 at 11:19:02:

> I've found another reference to how much time passed between CM #26 & 27. 
In CM #29, Rick says, "Aw, man, I don't believe this! I just get done with 
being a senior citizen..." As with Marlo's "microsecond" comment, "just get 
done" seems to imply a relatively short period of time has passed since Rick 
regained his youth in CM #26.

Ugh.  Well, to be honest this is the sort of reference I can ignore very 
easily.  Yes, it looks like it was MEANT to be a short time between #26-27, 
but heck -- Captain America's dialogue in Avengers #45 was MEANT to imply 
that his wounds were from his battle in #44, but we've placed about twelve 
other Cap appearances in-between them.

If any time-period was referenced or if any plotlines explicitly crossed over 
between issues, cliffhanger-style, I'd consider it -- but for something like 
this I'm not too concerned with Rick and Marlo's emotion-backed utterances.

Besides, for all the books we've placed between these two, it really doesn't 
HAVE to be much more than a 3 week gap.

> As for the beardless Rick's appearance in one panel of CA3 #50's sixth story, 
I have my doubts as to whether that really is Rick. Sure, the dialogue suggests 
that it's him but he doesn't show up in the crowd scene on the last page and I 
have no doubt that Rick would have been invited and would have attended if he 
was able.

Who's the brown-haired guy behind Sharon Carter and Dum Dum Dugan in that 
crowd scene?  In front of the FF?  Sure, in that picture he looks too pudgy 
to be Rick, but check out the last panel of the previous page, behind Sharon 
Carter to the right -- if that's the same guy, I think it's supposed to be 
Rick.

> As for Moondragon, Marlo says (in CM #27) that she's "off on some mission" 
and she only returns in CM #31 to revive Marlo and to explain about her death-
wish power.

Well, if we put the Kang War just before #27-31, that "mission" could be some 
Avengers-related Kang clean-up business.  Moondragon IS an inactive member, 
after all.

> CM #32 seems to begin quite soon after CM #31. The customers at Marlo's 
comic shop tell Rick to tell Marlo that they hope that she feels better soon, 
possibly indicating that she's been "out sick" since they saw her DEAD ON THE 
FLOOR in CM #31. Also, Moondragon is shown teaching Marlo focus and control 
so that she won't accidentally use the death wish to destroy everything. 
Considering how important such training would be, they probably would have 
begun as soon as possible, right?

Right.  So, Kang War between #26-27, then -- or, if Rick shaves the beard 
for the new CM #1 next month, perhaps Rick's appearance in Cap #50 and the 
subsequent Kang War could take place between CM5 #35 and CM6 #1...

> I would like it better if it wasn't Rick in CA #50. By the way, CA #50 came 
out the same week as CM #26. Since Rick had been old-and-bearded for seven 
issues by then, that means that either the artist on CA #50 somehow knew that 
Rick was going to be young-and-beardless by the end of CM #26 OR...it wasn't 
meant to be Rick after all.

No, what it meant was that the artist and writer weren't up on current Marvel 
continuity.  Heck, they had the Beast at the funeral, pre-cat state, and he'd 
been feline for EIGHT months prior to that.  If you look behind the Beast, 
you'll see a strong-chinned man who is meant to be Colossus, who had been dead 
for a YEAR at that point -- thank God the top of the page cuts his face off, 
or I'd have to positively ID him as Colossus and throw this whole thing off.  
Evan Dorkin and Kevin Maguire aren't quite on the ball here -- we're lucky 
all their other hero and villain cameos can fit as well as they do.

> If Rick was still old and suicidally-depressed when Cap supposedly died, he 
may not have wanted to have his reaction seen on TV or to attend a funeral that 
would just reinforce his depression about his aged state. Of course, that's 
just my opinion.

It's a good opinion -- I've seen weirder rationales for things -- but it's 
fairly obvious that the character is MEANT to be Rick Jones.

I'm placing (sigh) everything from TB:LS and IA to the Kang War between CM5 
#26-27 for now.  Next month when CM6 #1 comes out, we'll see if there's an 
indefinite time gap in there we can abuse.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Gap Between Captain Marvel #26-27
Posted by Don Campbell on August 26, 2002 at 09:36:50:
In Reply to: Re: Gap Between Captain Marvel #26-27
posted by Jeph! on August 25, 2002 at 14:30:00:

> Yes, it looks like it was MEANT to be a short time between #26-27, but 
heck -- Captain America's dialogue in Avengers #45 was MEANT to imply that 
his wounds were from his battle in #44, but we've placed about twelve other 
Cap appearances in-between them.

> Besides, for all the books we've placed between these two, it really 
doesn't HAVE to be much more than a 3 week gap.

I've reconsidered and I think you're right. Rick and Marlo's emotion-backed 
utterances are less important than the fact that Rick goes from clean-shaven 
to bearded between those two issues. After having had a beard for the past 
two years, I shaved it off last Friday and now, three days later, only stubble 
has grown back so far. Maybe my hair grows slowly (or Rick's grows faster?) 
but if I were to let it grow out again it would probably be at least two or 
three weeks before my mustache would look as "solid" as Rick's mustache does 
in CM #27.

> Who's the brown-haired guy behind Sharon Carter and Dum Dum Dugan in that 
crowd scene?  In front of the FF?  Sure, in that picture he looks too pudgy 
to be Rick, but check out the last panel of the previous page, behind Sharon 
Carter to the right -- if that's the same guy, I think it's supposed to be 
Rick.

I took another look at that story and I think you're right - on both counts. 
Yes, that character's placement among the forefront of the mourners means that 
he is probably meant to be Rick Jones and yes, he does look too pudgy to be 
Rick (which may be the reason that I overlooked him earlier).

> So, Kang War between #26-27, then -- or, if Rick shaves the beard for the 
new CM #1 next month, perhaps Rick's appearance in Cap #50 and the subsequent 
Kang War could take place between CM5 #35 and CM6 #1...

> I'm placing (sigh) everything from TB:LS and IA to the Kang War between 
CM5 #26-27 for now.  Next month when CM6 #1 comes out, we'll see if there's 
an indefinite time gap in there we can abuse.

Just to make sure that I'm reading you correctly, you believe that GenisRick's 
appearances in Thunderbolts: Life Sentences, Infinity Abyss, Fantastic Four 
#46, Captain America #50 and Thunderbolts #58-59 all take place between Captain 
Marvel #26 & 27, and in that order? I can see that IA and the FF issue pretty 
much have to go there but I'm not sure about TB:LS. I'm using Paul Bourcier's 
list as a reference and that is one of the issues marked as **MOVED** so I'm 
not sure how solid that placement is. If TB:LS has to take place after ACQ 
then it must come after CM #17-19 because the Thor, Thanos and Death appearances 
there predate ACQ but there are three gaps before CM #26/27 that might do.

As for CA #50 possibly coming between CM5 #35 and CM6 #1, I took a look at 
the last page of CM #35 which displays three preview pages from CM #1. Page 
3 shows someone wearing nega-bands either exercising or fighting. Since the 
man is dark-haired, I assume that it's Rick...and he seems to be clean-
shaven...but he also seems to have short hair. Maybe, after his break-up with 
Marlo, Rick shaved off his beard and mustache, let his hair grow out a bit 
and, in his depression, overate a lot? Then, after Cap's funeral, he got a 
crew cut and began working out to take off the weight that he'd gained? Also, 
that last page preview shows that Genis will be getting a new Alex Ross-
designed costume soon so his appearance in TB #59 must take place before CM6 
#1.

Finally, I'm not sure if you ever suggested otherwise but IA must take place 
before CM #27-35. Not only is Rick clean-shaven but in IA #1 he complains to 
Genis about how he had to cancel "a romantic dinner with Marlo" in order to 
check out whatever set off Genis' cosmic senses. After CM #35, it seems 
unlikely that Rick would even consider such a dinner anytime in the near 
future, much less look forward to it.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: Gap Between Captain Marvel #26-27
Posted by Jeph! on August 26, 2002 at 13:15:32:
In Reply to: Re: Gap Between Captain Marvel #26-27
posted by Don Campbell on August 26, 2002 at 09:36:50:

> > it would probably be at least two or three weeks before my mustache would 
look as "solid" as Rick's mustache does in CM #27.

So, in my initial placement then, Rick starts growing the beard right after 
Cap's "death", possibly out of mourning, and then it grows right through the 
events of the Kang War, and shows up in CM #27.

> and yes, he does look too pudgy to be Rick (which may be the reason that I 
overlooked him earlier).

He looked fine in the previous panel -- I'm not sure what happened.

Hey, also, if you compare panels, Quicksilver moved from one side of the 
service to the other!  Ah, Pietro, will you never stand still?  ;)

> Just to make sure that I'm reading you correctly, you believe that 
GenisRick's appearances in Thunderbolts: Life Sentences, Infinity Abyss, 
Fantastic Four #46, Captain America #50 and Thunderbolts #58-59 all take 
place between Captain Marvel #26 & 27, and in that order?

Close -- swap the T-Bolts' and Cap appearance and you'll have it.  Of course, 
I'm willing to believe that the T-Bolts and Cap appearances take place in the 
gap between #35 and the relaunch if that fits better, given the published 
book...

> I can see that IA and the FF issue pretty much have to go there but I'm 
not sure about TB:LS. I'm using Paul Bourcier's list as a reference and that 
is one of the issues marked as **MOVED** so I'm not sure how solid that 
placement is.

That's one of the things on Paul's list that I'm styrongly requesting get 
moved back -- TB #51-52 are closely tied in with the first Citizen V series, 
which has to take place after Defenders #4.  And "Life Sentences" takes place 
after TB #52.  Paul proposed moving all the issues back before Defenders #1, 
which is why you think TB:LS and IA are far apart, but Attuma is clearly 
ruler of Atlantis in CV #2, so they have to go back.  On my list, Life 
Sentences and IA are literally right next to each other.

> If TB:LS has to take place after ACQ then it must come after CM #17-19 
because the Thor, Thanos and Death appearances there predate ACQ but there 
are three gaps before CM #26/27 that might do.

What are they again?

> As for CA #50 possibly coming between CM5 #35 and CM6 #1, I took a look at 
the last page of CM #35 which displays three preview pages from CM #1. Page 3 
shows someone wearing nega-bands either exercising or fighting. Since the man 
is dark-haired, I assume that it's Rick...and he seems to be clean-shaven...
but he also seems to have short hair. Maybe, after his break-up with Marlo, 
Rick shaved off his beard and mustache, let his hair grow out a bit and, in 
his depression, overate a lot? Then, after Cap's funeral, he got a crew cut 
and began working out to take off the weight that he'd gained? Also, that 
last page preview shows that Genis will be getting a new Alex Ross-designed 
costume soon so his appearance in TB #59 must take place before CM6 #1.

Hey, works for me.  We'll see how much explicit time has passed between #35 
and #1 -- but, to be honest, the current placement of the Kang War works as 
well as any.

> Finally, I'm not sure if you ever suggested otherwise but IA must take 
place before CM #27-35.

Gotcha.  Never suggested otherwise.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Gap Between Captain Marvel #26-27
Posted by Don Campbell on August 26, 2002 at 16:54:41:
In Reply to: Re: Gap Between Captain Marvel #26-27
posted by Jeph! on August 26, 2002 at 13:15:32:

> So, in my initial placement then, Rick starts growing the beard right after 
Cap's "death", possibly out of mourning, and then it grows right through the 
events of the Kang War, and shows up in CM #27.

> > Just to make sure that I'm reading you correctly, you believe that 
Genis/Rick's appearances in Thunderbolts: Life Sentences, Infinity Abyss, 
Fantastic Four #46, Captain America #50 and Thunderbolts #58-59 all take place 
between Captain Marvel #26 & 27, and in that order?

> Close -- swap the T-Bolts' and Cap appearance and you'll have it.  Of 
course, I'm willing to believe that the T-Bolts and Cap appearances take place 
in the gap between #35 and the relaunch if that fits better, given the 
published book...

> On my list, Life Sentences and IA are literally right next to each other.

> > If TB:LS has to take place after ACQ then it must come after CM #17-19 
because the Thor, Thanos and Death appearances there predate ACQ but there 
are three gaps before CM #26/27 that might do.

> What are they again?

Ah, I'm starting to get a bit confused as to what goes where. What I meant 
to say was this: If TB:LS can take place BEFORE IA, then it can occur between 
CM #19/20 or between CM #21/22 or between CM #25/26. The fact that Rick is 
old-and-bearded throughout CM #19-26 doesn't matter because he doesn't appear 
in TB:LS. On the other hand, if TB:LS MUST take place (soon) after IA, then 
it must also be after CM #26 and probably before CM #27-35. And since FF #46 
follows soon after TB:LS, it also must take place in that gap.

> > As for CA #50 possibly coming between CM5 #35 and CM6 #1, I took a look 
at the last page of CM #35 which displays three preview pages from CM #1. Page 
3 shows someone wearing nega-bands either exercising or fighting. Since the 
man is dark-haired, I assume that it's Rick...and he seems to be clean-
shaven...but he also seems to have short hair. Maybe, after his break-up with 
Marlo, Rick shaved off his beard and mustache, let his hair grow out a bit 
and, in his depression, overate a lot? Then, after Cap's funeral, he got a 
crew cut and began working out to take off the weight that he'd gained? Also, 
that last page preview shows that Genis will be getting a new Alex Ross-
designed costume soon so his appearance in TB #59 must take place before CM6 
#1.

> Hey, works for me. We'll see how much explicit time has passed between #35 
and #1 -- but, to be honest, the current placement of the Kang War works as 
well as any.

Going back to your original list with the last two appearances swapped, the 
order is: Infinity Abyss #1-6, Thunderbolts: Life Sentences, Fantastic Four 
v3 #46, Captain America v3 #50 and finally Thunderbolts #54-59, right? If so, 
then only IA, TB:LS and FF #46 have to take place between CM #26 & 27, and CA 
#50 and TB #59 can be placed either in that gap with the others or after CM 
#35, depending on what happens in the new CM series. Since Genis/Rick don't 
interact very much with anybody except Moondragon, there should be no 
conflicts with any Kang War stories.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: Gap Between Captain Marvel #26-27
Posted by Jeph! on August 27, 2002 at 00:21:19:
In Reply to: Re: Gap Between Captain Marvel #26-27
posted by Don Campbell on August 26, 2002 at 16:54:41:

> Ah, I'm starting to get a bit confused as to what goes where.

I'll give you my version of events below.

> If TB:LS can take place BEFORE IA, then it can occur between CM #19/20 or 
between CM #21/22 or between CM #25/26.

Ah, those are the three gaps.  Thanks.

> The fact that Rick is old-and-bearded throughout CM #19-26 doesn't matter 
because he doesn't appear in TB:LS. On the other hand, if TB:LS MUST take 
place (soon) after IA, then it must also be after CM #26 and probably before 
CM #27-35. And since FF #46 follows soon after TB:LS, it also must take place 
in that gap.

Right.  I currently have TB:LS as happening JUST BEFORE the IA series, but 
that's just arbitrary -- they both have to happen sometime after D2 #4, is 
all.  I placed TB #51-52 and TB:LS before IA to allow, like Paul says, for 
a minimum of time elapsing between TB #50 and #51 -- I mean, realistically, 
how long could Clint survive in prison without the deal he strikes in TB:LS?

Here's my rationale for putting them in the same CM gap, besides the fact 
that they're literally right next to each other on my list: Paul Bourcier's 
absolute calendar.

I'm anticipating, based on me pointing out to Paul that Christmas takes place 
in X #109, that he's going to try to push all other Christmas issues back to 
that point.  CM #22-25, and possibly 26, are Christmas-themed issues, so by 
placing them all before TB:LS and IA, I'm giving Paul the ability to push them 
back to Christmastime if he so desires.

I agree -- TB:LS could fit in any of those other three gaps, to varying 
degrees -- but until Paul comes back and hammers on his calendar some more, 
I'm trying to give him the leeway to make things fall the way he wants them 
to.

> Going back to your original list with the last two appearances swapped, the 
order is: Infinity Abyss #1-6, Thunderbolts: Life Sentences, Fantastic Four 
v3 #46, Captain America v3 #50 and finally Thunderbolts #54-59, right?

Again, close:  it's

TB:LS
IA #1-6
FF3 #46
...long pause...
TB #57-58
CA3 #50

Cap #50 comes LAST in all things, as it features Cap getting the terrible 
injuries he sports in A3 #45, which is the first issue in the actual all-out 
Kang War.

> If so, then only IA, TB:LS and FF #46 have to take place between CM #26 & 27, 
and CA #50 and TB #59 can be placed either in that gap with the others or after 
CM #35, depending on what happens in the new CM series. Since Genis/Rick don't 
interact very much with anybody except Moondragon, there should be no conflicts 
with any Kang War stories.

Exactly.  I'm placing them all in the same gap FOR NOW, anticipating a 
statement like "wow, I can't believe we left marlo on Calculex YESTERDAY, Marv" 
in the new CM #1.  Depending on the contents of the issue, we'll see.

I've totally broken my cardinal rule, by the way ... I'm chronologizing based 
on books that HAVEN'T COME OUT.  I'm ashamed.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

The Unofficial timeline is back
Posted by Dimadick on August 22, 2002 at 09:35:21:

  Sometime ago I mentioned that Edward Governo's pages on an Unofficial 
Timeline of the Marvel Universe was out of order. It's currently working 
again. See if you are interested in his speculations based in research. The 
History expands from right before the Big-Bang to right before Fantastic 
Four #1.

http://www.starnet-database.com/dbase_shield/timeline/Part_I.html

			*	*	*

Re: The Unofficial timeline is back (Note to Sean & Jeph!)
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 22, 2002 at 19:39:15:
In Reply to: The Unofficial timeline is back
posted by Dimadick on August 22, 2002 at 09:35:21:

Wow.  Now it looks like Edward thinks that Reed and Sue met about two years 
before FF 1.  If we go by this, then FF3 55 happens about 19 years after FF 1.  
Given all the events that have transpired in the Marvel Universe since FF 1, 
I'd tend to go along with that.  But whoops, that would mean that that pesky 
Franklin Richards is about...15.  ;)

Paul

			*	*	*

Gaea in Fantastic Four Annual#22, the Watcher in Atlantis Attacks
Posted by John Mc Donagh on August 22, 2002 at 18:28:04:

  Yes, an overlooked appearance of Gaea. Anyway, the Watcher, as occured in 
the other Atlantis Attacks tie-ins, explains the history of the Serpent Crow. 
Technically, these would count as new appearances of the Watcher, as he 
obviously is telling these (to someone) because of the recent events. However, 
the reason for this message has to do with the fact that, at the end of 
Fantastic Four Annual #22's Saga of the Serpent Crown, Gaea shows up to inform 
the Watcher of the defeat of Set in the main story in this annual. So, there 
you have it, an original appearance by Gaea.

			*	*	*

Multiple-Post Response to Jeph and Paul
Posted by SKleefeld on August 22, 2002 at 22:22:06:

Heh. As if the chronologies themselves aren't confusing enough, I thought 
I'd try to respond to three posts simultaneously! (Obviously, I'm a glutton 
for punishment.)

For anyone keeping score, Jeph is in blue, Paul is in green, my old stuff 
is in red and my new stuff is in brown!

>Paul: 1) It's really great to communicate with fellow chronologists 
(chronologers?).  (I wonder what Russ thinks of all this?)  We're all in the 
business of making sense of the MU so that there is a greater grounding in a 
"fictional reality."  I think we all feel this enhances the stories.  After 
all, one of the things that has made Marvel great (IMHO) is that sense of 
continuity -- that events unfold like history.

In TOTAL agreement with you on this one. I'm really glad Russ started this 
insane project in the first place (tip of the hat to George Olshevsky while 
I'm at it) and doubly glad he set the board up for everyone to discuss this 
like the rational children we all are!  :)

>Jeph: Having read and absorbed most of Paul's list, I see though that for 
most of it, he's only ADDED bits -- left our order alone, and noted where 
on his calendar it all likely takes place.

> The bits that he changed, he changed for calendar or in-story time passage 
reasons.  In some cases it works -- moving TB #53 closer to TB #54 because 
the book said only two days passed, for example, changes nothing except Cap's 
chronology -- so why not make the change?

> But in some cases it just doesn't work.  (D2 and CV, for example.)  All I'm 
doing right now is looking at the changes he made and seeing if they're 
viable -- deciding which needs to be altered, our order or his. 

Still haven't had a chance to go through and compare the lists side-by-side, 
but I'm glad to hear that the three of us are in agreement on most of the 
points. I thought I caught some changes in the Pym saga, though. I think the 
flip-flopping costume/identity thing just doesn't hold up well. This was a 
point I was pretty adamant about when Jeph and I were originally discussing 
things: Pym should NOT be switching costumes any more than absolutely 
necessary IMO.

>Sean: More helpful goodies! Excellent!

>Jeph: I'm starting to think we should pump Paul for info on all the books 
we don't have.  (cough, captain marvel) 

Good point, Jeph! Paul, can you provide some more details on Captain Marvel 
and Thor? You said something about a Christmas reference in CM... (IIRC, 
Jeph, you don't have all the relevant Thor issues, do you?)

>Sean: Although breaks have been known not to start until as late as December 
23! Believe me when I tell you that my wife (who's a teacher) was pissed about 
that one last year!

>Jeph: I'm going to let you two fight about this.  I'm of the mindset that 
snowstorms happen all the time -- if you really wanted, you could put this 
alongside the "cask of ancient winters" snowfall from Thor #30-whatever. 

>Paul: 3) On the other hand, I do feel that we need to pay attention to 
*absolute* chronological placement.  This is important so we have a sense of 
the passage of Marvel time -- that we're talking about a world where seasons 
change and years pass.  That sense enhances our appreciation for character 
chronologies by grounding them in "fictional real world" history.  Comics 
provide many clues about absolute chronological (calendar) placement: 
birthdays, anniversaries, holidays, specific dates, seasons, weather, lunar 
phases, political elections, and time passages between scenes and issues.  

Well, I'll concede that the snowstorm in PP could be the same one in Thor 
with ANOTHER storm popping up in IM. But I'm going to pull the reality factor 
in here and raise you one Occam's Razor: It's unlikely that there would be 
SEVERAL major storms like that in one season, so why don't we take the 
simplest route and consider them all the same storm (if possible). I'm not 
saying it should be the same day, just the same storm.

>Paul: (Hey, has Marvel ever referenced the terrorist attack on New York as 
"9/11?"  Here's a thought: that event may have happened on a different date 
in the MU.)

I believe that it has been referenced as "9-11" on occassion. I believe 
Deadline and Captain America v4 both reference the date.

>Paul: 4) I do realize that things don't always line up and that some forms 
of reference (whether they deal with relative or absolute chronology) are more 
trustworthy than others.  In order of reliability, from greatest to least: 
major plot point hinges on the reference (full moons are pretty important for 
Werewolf By Night); minor plot point hinges on the reference; dialog reference 
(character speaking); narrative reference (writer speaking); graphic reference 
(artist just felt like drawing that full moon because s/he thinks it looks 
cool).

Hmmm. I would argue that "writer's voice" (i.e. captions and omniscient 
narrative) would hold more weight than "character voice" (i.e. dialogue and 
thought balloons). Generally speaking, the writer's voice is third person 
omniscient. Omniscient, as in "possessed of universal or complete knowledge" 
(Webster's). If the characters are, in fact, people, they are subject to 
using estimations, lies, erroneous information, etc. It still carries more 
weight than "artistic license" but not by a whole lot, IMO.

>Paul: 5) I do admit that that there will be "topical references" that should 
be ignored, but that it's better to ignore less trustworthy references than 
more trustworthy ones.  In my mind, the MU has "topical characters" -- U.S. 
presidents being an example.  Read George W. Bush as the character, "President 
du Jour."  He may represent one character or more.  Likewise two different 
real world presidents may be the same Marvel character.

> Wow.  Now it looks like Edward thinks that Reed and Sue met about two years 
before FF 1.  If we go by this, then FF3 55 happens about 19 years after FF 1.  
Given all the events that have transpired in the Marvel Universe since FF 1, 
I'd tend to go along with that.  But whoops, that would mean that that pesky 
Franklin Richards is about...15.  ;)

This is where things get absurdly tricky. (Or just plain absurd, depending on 
your POV!) In my mind, each President (or significant character with a real-
world counterpart) is a unique character in and of themself. Nixon isn't going 
to act like Ford isn't going to act like Carter isn't going to act like 
Reagan... Take GW's appearance in Black Panther. The way the character is 
written, it can only be GW. Clinton wouldn't have acted like that. Bush the 
first wouldn't have even acted like that. Or Nixon in those old Cap stories? 
You're not going to find another President since that corrupt. That, to me, 
is a little beyond being topical because the character's words and actions 
affect how the story plays out. 

(Admittedly, that's not always the case. GW's appearance in Order could've 
been ANY President, but his other appearances AS GEORGE W. BUSH connect this 
as the same character.)

The downside to that arguement is that the President changes every 4 (or 8) 
years, which is reflected in the MU. But if only 10 years have passed since 
FF #1, that means a President's term can't be any longer than one year! Can 
you justify a story that hinges on Christmas as being a topical reference? 
If not, then Christmas happens in the Marvel Universe every... what? Four 
months?

That's essentially why the "absolute" placement concept doesn't work for me: 
too much has to be thrown to the wind as topical references. It makes sense 
to try to coalesce Christmas stories together and the like, but I just can't 
see how it fits on a calendar.

While I'm speaking about "absolute" placement and such, the cover date for 
DD's exposure was April 18. Don't know how that compares to Cap's unmasking 
offhand. (Somewhere between Easter and Independance Day, wasn't it?)

You'll notice, too, that Robert Wicks' TUCTTMU doesn't handle time placement 
very well either. He has to stop using actual dates and skips over to a "# 
Years Before FF 1" mode, which breaks down once you bring in characters like 
Magneto and Ben Grimm, who are tied to both sides of the fence. (Not a 
criticism of Robert's work, BTW. I have a printed copy from about 3 years 
ago that I still reference. I'll also note that his original introduction 
(omitted in this version) even gives thanks to me (and many others) for 
helping him in the project.)

>Paul: I'm convinced we can work out a chronology/ timeline with relatively 
few topical references and few instances of bending and warping to suit our 
tastes.  Ever the optimist...

Don't worry, we'll get you to see the pessimistic side of things yet!  :)

>Sean: Sue was only about 12 when she first met Reed. She could easily still 
be in her early thirties. 

>Jeph: Reed and Sue met at age 12?  That's so sweet its almost sick.  Where 
was this established?

I'd have to double check a bunch of stuff for actual issue numbers, but it 
basically played out like this...

There were many oblique references (starting with Stan and Jack) to Reed 
having met Sue when he was in college boarding with her aunt. Then Johnny 
was pegged as 16 as of FF #1 with Sue only a few years older. Coupled with 
some references that she and Johnny had to live with their aunt because 
they were minors, Gruenwald finally pegged Sue as meeting Reed when she was 
12 in the Handbook. Not canon in itself, though, this was picked up on by 
subsequent writers (notably Byrne) and written in to various stories. It 
was later nailed down that Reed was, in fact, 18 when he started ESU. And 
since he spent at least his first year in the dorms, that means there's at 
least a 7 year difference between Reed and Sue's ages.

WHEW! And I still haven't actually gone through and compared lists yet!

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Quick reply
Posted by Jeph! on August 22, 2002 at 22:42:11:
In Reply to: Multiple-Post Response to Jeph and Paul
posted by SKleefeld on August 22, 2002 at 22:22:06:

Not a lot to reply to at this point, but:

> > I'm starting to think we should pump Paul for info on all the books 
we don't have.  (cough, captain marvel) 

> Good point, Jeph! Paul, can you provide some more details on Captain 
Marvel and Thor? You said something about a Christmas reference in CM... 
(IIRC, Jeph, you don't have all the relevant Thor issues, do you?) 

No, I don't.  Sorry.

> Well, I'll concede that the snowstorm in PP could be the same one in Thor 
with ANOTHER storm popping up in IM. But I'm going to pull the reality factor 
in here and raise you one Occam's Razor: It's unlikely that there would be 
SEVERAL major storms like that in one season, so why don't we take the 
simplest route and consider them all the same storm (if possible). I'm not 
saying it should be the same day, just the same storm.

At this point I'm with Paul on it:  we'll see how the Thor and IM issues 
fall on a list-slash calendar, and then place the PP storm where fits best.

> WHEW! And I still haven't actually gone through and compared lists yet!

Actually, Sean, wait until I post my reply to Paul before you do.  Once up, 
my reply will be my "final say" for a day or so, and that'll give you and 
Paul the most up-to-date stuff to fight over between the two of you.  Just 
a few more minutes and it should be up.

And it's ALL going to be in black-and-white...

	-Jeph!

PS -- Sean and Paul, we can always take this to e-mail like Sean and I did 
before.  

			*	*	*

Re: Quick reply
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 23, 2002 at 22:06:04:
In Reply to: Quick reply
posted by Jeph! on August 22, 2002 at 22:42:11:

> PS -- Sean and Paul, we can always take this to e-mail like Sean and I 
did before.

I'd ask that you not take it to private email, unless you're planning on 
saying bad things about me.

I can't tell you how many emails I get, saying, "I'd like to help, but how 
do you do this chronological analysis stuff?" Your public discussion gives 
outsiders and newcomers valuable insight into the nuts and bolts of 
chronology.

I'll admit it's a *lot* to wade through, but it's indispensable. Rather 
than simply posting the results of your discussion ("This is the conclusion 
we've reached; just trust us and accept it") please give everyone who wishes 
the opportunity to see--and participate in--the discussion.

Barring that, if you elect to go email, please cc me.

			*	*	*

Can I be of assistance?
Posted by Kevin on August 26, 2002 at 15:15:48:
In Reply to: Quick reply
posted by Jeph! on August 22, 2002 at 22:42:11:

> > > I'm starting to think we should pump Paul for info on 
all the books we don't have.  (cough, captain marvel) 

> > Good point, Jeph! Paul, can you provide some more details on Captain 
Marvel and Thor? You said something about a Christmas reference in CM... 
(IIRC, Jeph, you don't have all the relevant Thor issues, do you?)

> No, I don't.  Sorry.

Hey, I have all issues of Thor since his relaunch after Heroes Reborn, and 
all 3 annuals released, (hey, speaking of which, when's this years annual 
of Thor coming out?)

Can I be of assistance?

Of course, if all of you have Thor's chronology figured out by this point, 
just let me know, and I'll shut up.

I feel like that kid in the back of the class who suddenly knows the answer, 
and is waving his hand frantically for the teacher to call on him. :-)

Once again, if you don't need help, just let me know. I'm content to sit back 
and watch you guys figure all this out, (I'm getting a real kick out of it by 
the way, it's funny, and entertaining to try and understand the MU).

			*	*	*

Beast in Wolverine #166
Posted by Matt on August 23, 2002 at 12:32:38:

I couldn't get Wolverine #166, and I was wondering if the Beast had begun to 
mutate into his more cat-like appearance in that same issue, or did it happen 
somewhere else?

Also did his strength level change along with his appearance, or does he still 
only lift 10 tons?

			*	*	*

Re: Beast in Wolverine #166
Posted by Jeph! on August 23, 2002 at 17:04:45:
In Reply to: Beast in Wolverine #166
posted by Matt on August 23, 2002 at 12:32:38:

> I couldn't get Wolverine #166, and I was wondering if the Beast had begun 
to mutate into his more cat-like appearance in that same issue, or did it 
happen somewhere else?

Someplace else -- his mutation was jump-started in X-Treme X-Men #3, and 
Wolvie #162-166 take place before that.  We first see the newly mutated 
cat-Beast, chronologically speaking, in Cyclops #1.  To date there have 
been no issues, however, that SHOWED him changing.

> Also did his strength level change along with his appearance, or does 
he still only lift 10 tons?

We have yet to find out.  he does now weigh 600 pounds, so his strength 
may have changed.

	-Jeph!
"only" 10 tons ... kids these days...

			*	*	*

DEATHSTROKE...DELPHI...DESTINY(Paul Destine)
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 23, 2002 at 15:59:34:

new entries marked **

DEATHSTROKE/

**S-W 39
CA 395

DELPHI

H2 379
(-> H2 381 <-)  -- I am not seeing her in H 381.
** H2 382
H@ 18/3
H2 386

DESTINY/PAUL DESTINE

**TTA 101
IM&SM 1/2
SUB-M 1

			*	*	*

Dr. Doom/Stryfe question
Posted by Matt on August 25, 2002 at 12:50:10:

When Stryfe returned to the present day in the second Cable/X-Man crossover, 
he took over Latveria since Dr. Doom was MIA as a result of "Heroes Reborn".

But when Dr. Doom finally returned to the Marvel U, what happened with Stryfe? 
Did Doom and Stryfe fought each other for control of Latveria? If so, which 
comic did it occur?

			*	*	*

Re: Dr. Doom/Stryfe question
Posted by Jeph! on August 25, 2002 at 14:37:35:
In Reply to: Dr. Doom/Stryfe question
posted by Matt on August 25, 2002 at 12:50:10:

> When Stryfe returned to the present day in the second Cable/X-Man crossover, 
he took over Latveria since Dr. Doom was MIA as a result of "Heroes Reborn".

I always got the impression that Stryfe was defeated and cast out of Latveria 
in X-Man #47.

I'm not entirely sure how the issue was handled in FF -- I remember some 
erroneous references to Stryfe having successfully taken over -- but when 
Doom returned, I'm fairly sure he just picked up the reins of power with no 
hassle.

ammit, now I'll have to go read X-Man #47.  Uggh.

	-Jeph, who remembers an issue of Gambit where the Mengo brothers 
were defending comparisons of Doom and Stryfe to Hilter ... hmm...

			*	*	*

Hulk/Colossus question
Posted by Matt on August 25, 2002 at 15:54:55:
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Doom/Stryfe question
posted by Jeph! on August 25, 2002 at 14:37:35:

I have another question for you, Jeph. Before he died, did the X-Man 
Colossus ever get the chance to pit his strength against the Hulk?

			*	*	*

Re: Hulk/Colossus question
Posted by Jeph! on August 25, 2002 at 17:46:27:
In Reply to: Hulk/Colossus question
posted by Matt on August 25, 2002 at 15:54:55:

I ... have no idea.  I'm pretty sure he didn't, though.  I can't think of a 
specific comic they've even been IN together.

Anyone else know for sure?

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Hulk/Colossus question
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 26, 2002 at 03:51:21:
In Reply to: Re: Hulk/Colossus question
posted by Jeph! on August 25, 2002 at 17:46:27:

Secret Wars, surely?

			*	*	*

Re: Hulk/Colossus question
Posted by Bruce Banner on August 31, 2002 at 22:40:25:
In Reply to: Re: Hulk/Colossus question
posted by Jeph! on August 25, 2002 at 17:46:27:

They've never fought or had a match of strength to date. 

			*	*	*

DESTINY (Irene Adler)...DIABLO...DOUGHBOY
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 27, 2002 at 17:46:34:

new entries marked **

DESTINY II/IRENE ADLER

XMF 3
**CX 44/2
M/SH3 11/3

DIABLO/ESTEBAN DE ABLO

A 42
**M/SH 20  (just a correction; this is shown as M/SH2 20 and should be M/SH 20)
FF 117

DOUGHBOY

**CA 209
**CA 210
**CA 212-BTS
 (in CA 277 Doughboy/Primus states  Although united with Doughboy, I used 
my greater intelligence to take control of him  to escape the fiery explosion 
which made ruin of Zolas castle.  <Which happens in CA212, thus the  -BTS >)
Unless they have become separated somewhere, would not ALL instances of Primus 
from here on also be instances of Doughboy? (i.e. CA 276, CA 277, CA 278, 
CA 279, NW 3, NW 51, NW 72, and NW 73 ...W2 139 is already under both entries) 
or maybe they should be combined into one?)
**CA 275  (shapeshifted to appear as Arnim Zola as revealed later; it should 
also be added to Primuss chronology)
**CA 276
**CA 277
**CA 278
**CA 279
**NW 3 
CA 383/4
CA 393
CA 395
CA 396
**NW 51
**NW 72
**NW 73
W2 139

           PRIMUS chronology similar
                                CA 210
                                **CA212-BTS
                                **CA 275  
                                CA 276

			*	*	*

Re: DOUGHBOY
Posted by Don Campbell on August 29, 2002 at 13:16:54:
In Reply to: DESTINY (Irene Adler)...DIABLO...DOUGHBOY
posted by Arthur Stein on August 27, 2002 at 17:46:34:

There is something about Primus that has never been explained. After he 
escaped from Arnim Zola, Primus teamed up with Baron Helmut Zemo in CA 275-279 
and then appeared as the Mad Thinker's assistant in NW 3. Doughboy showed up 
as Arnim Zola's servant in CA 383/4 and CA 393 & 395-396. Then Primus appeared 
with the Mad Thinker again in NW 51, NW 72-73 and W2 139. Since we know how 
much Primus HATED being Zola's slave, why would he return to Zola as Doughboy 
in those CA issues? As I see it, there are two possible explanations. First, 
sometime after NW 3, Arnim Zola captured Primus, re-established his control 
over him and forced him back into his Doughboy form but Primus eventually 
escaped again. Second, after Primus escaped from Zola, the master geneticist 
simply cloned a new Doughboy using tissue from the original and (presumably) 
eliminated the capacity for self-will that allowed Primus to rebel in the 
first place.

If the first explanation is correct, then your listing of appearances is 
correct. Also, if there is only one Doughboy/Primus, then I think that there 
should be only one entry for the character and that he should be listed under 
Primus since Primus is the sentient one. However, there should also be a 
listing for Doughboy that says "See Primus."

If the second explanation is correct, then all but those interim CA appearances 
should be listed in one entry (call it Primus, Primus/Doughboy I or 
Doughboy I/Primus). Then those CA appearances should be listed under 
"Doughboy II (clone)."

By the way, it should be noted that Doughboy and Primus were originally parts 
of the SAME BEING. Zola merely caused Primus to separate from Doughboy for a 
particular task and then forced him to reunite with Doughboy after Primus 
displayed signs of self-will and rebellion. As such, maybe it would be 
approriate to list it as "Doughboy/Primus" or "Primus/Doughboy" instead of 
just "Doughboy" or "Primus."

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

She-Hulk question
Posted by mikeo' on August 29, 2002 at 10:35:39:

She Hulk's chonology lists the following as appearances for her:

Iron Man (volume 2) 1, 8, 10, 11, 12 
Captain America (volume 2) 12
Heroes Reborn: The Return 4

What I'm curious about is that these stories were set in the Heroes Reborn/
alternate universe created by Franklin Richards to house the heroes that went 
into/through Onslaught in Onslaught: Marvel Universe. She Hulk was not one 
of those heroes. 

Is the She-Hulk in the appearances listed above the true She-Hulk or one of 
the doppelgangers from Franklin's world? (not unlike the other versions of 
Marvel characters currently being seen in Thunderbolts)

If so, I move that these aren't true She-Hulk apps and shouldn't be included. 

Anyone have any thoughts on it? 

			*	*	*

Re: She-Hulk question
Posted by JLH on August 30, 2002 at 04:52:47:
In Reply to: She-Hulk question
posted by mikeo' on August 29, 2002 at 10:35:39:

Though we didn't see her go into it, she did in fact came back with the Heroes 
from Franklin's Ball World during the "Heroes Return" mini-series. It was just 
one big massive goof-up (and I don't just mean the entire Heroes Reborn 
story!). It would be quite strange if there were two Shulkies running around 
the Marvel Universe now...

Just tack it all on to old unfinished plotlines, like how Mephisto came back 
from the dead (during some of the later Silver Surfer issues he was stuck 
between dimensions as just a spirit, but then popped up quite alive in loads 
of other books afterwards), and how Galactus got out of the pocket dimension 
following his Hyperstorm feeding in FF#414.

			*	*	*

Re: She-Hulk question
Posted by Matt on August 30, 2002 at 11:03:21:
In Reply to: Re: She-Hulk question
posted by JLH on August 30, 2002 at 04:52:47:

I think the HR She-Hulk was a doppelganger, because the real one appeared in 
a flashback in Avengers Annual 1999, and it was suppose to take place right 
after Onslaught.

			*	*	*

Heroes Reborn Doppelgangers
Posted by BobMM on August 30, 2002 at 11:15:03:
In Reply to: Re: She-Hulk question
posted by Matt on August 30, 2002 at 11:03:21:

Several characters who had not died in Onslaught appeared to return with the 
Heroes to Marvel Earth during Heroes Reborn. I assume that any duplicates 
flashed out of existence. 

			*	*	*

Re: Heroes Reborn Doppelgangers
Posted by Sean Curtin on September 01, 2002 at 00:33:18:
In Reply to: Heroes Reborn Doppelgangers
posted by BobMM on August 30, 2002 at 11:15:03:

Or merged with their "real" counterparts.

--Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: Heroes Reborn Doppelgangers
Posted by mikeo' on September 03, 2002 at 10:35:29:
In Reply to: Heroes Reborn Doppelgangers
posted by BobMM on August 30, 2002 at 11:15:03:

Then wouldn't it stand to reason that the appearances listed in She-Hulk's 
chronology for Iron Man (Vol 2) 1 8 10 11 12, Captain America (Vol 2) 12 and 
Heroes Reborn: The Return 4 should be removed from her listing? Avengers 
Annual 1999 places her within mainstream continuity during the Heroes Reborn 
time, so the genuine She-Hulk couln't have been on that Earth to make those 
appearances. Is this reason enough for that type of change? 

			*	*	*

Re: Heroes Reborn Doppelgangers
Posted by BobMM on September 04, 2002 at 15:41:46:
In Reply to: Re: Heroes Reborn Doppelgangers
posted by mikeo' on September 03, 2002 at 10:35:29:

The simplest solution is Sean's suggestion that any Franklinverse duplicates 
MERGED with their M.U. selves. That essentially lets the character be in both 
places at the same time, gives future writers the freedom to reference either 
timeline, and let's the Chronology stay as-is.

			*	*	*

Re: Heroes Reborn Doppelgangers
Posted by Jeph! on September 04, 2002 at 18:52:42:
In Reply to: Re: Heroes Reborn Doppelgangers
posted by BobMM on September 04, 2002 at 15:41:46:

I would agree with you, if the Heroes Reborn duplicates were SPLIT OFF FROM 
the originals, THEN re-merged -- but in this case, every HR character that 
didn't jump into the Onslaught effect was a NEW CHARACTER, a mental creation 
of Franklin Richards.  Including the She-Hulk and Inhumans seen in the "Heroes 
Return" series.  It's a different person altogether.

An example of a character splitting and re-merging would be Hank Pym, in A3 
#29-43.  That would be a case where I'd count both versions in the same 
chronological list.  But to say that that the HR She-Hulk's appearances 
should be combined with the real She-Hulk's appearances, just because YOU 
ASSUME the two characters merged, isn't good enough.  They never were the 
same person to begin with, and we don't know now that they ARE the same 
person.

The "simplest solution" is that Peter David made a mistake when writing 
"Heroes Return", and we should assume that all HR characters like She-Hulk 
who mistakenly got on that shuttle simply vanished out of existence, or 
were hurled back to Counter-Earth by the Dreaming Celestial.

The simplest solution FOR SHE-HULK's chronology is that the MCP is wrong, 
and should be altered, until such time as we have actual proof that the two 
characters DID merge.

Which, in all likelihood, we're never going to get.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

DR. DOOM...DR. NEMESIS...DRACULA
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 31, 2002 at 08:06:38:

new entries marked **

DR. DOOM/VICTOR VON DOOM

1) 
There are some flashbacks to Dooms early life in M/SH 20 that are basically 
synchronous with the earliest flashbacks as shown in FF@ 2, but add a new 
piece of Dooms early life: A romantic interest.
FF@ 2 pg 2/ 6  -- shows Werner von Doom leaving the barons castle planning 
to take his son and flee before the baroness dies.
M/SH 20 pg 8/4  Victor and Valeria holding hands walking in the countryside
M/SH 20 pg 9/1  Werner interrupts; tells Victor they must flee
FF@ 2 pg 3/7  -- Baroness dies
FF@ 2 pg 4/1  =  M/SH 20 pg 9/2  -- the barons troops attack the gypsy camp
FF@ 2 pg 4/2-3  Werner and Victor fleeing on horseback, horse bolts
M/SH 20 pg 9/3 Werner and Victor on foot
FF@ 2 pg 4/4-6 = M/SH 20 pg 9/4-6  --on the run, found by Boris
FF@ 2 pg4/7  Boris assesses their health
FF@ 2 pg 5/1-2 = M/SH 20 pg 9/7  10/1   Werner dies; Doom vows vengeance
FF@ 2 pg 5/3-4  Doom gets his parents belongings, starts to look through
M/SH 20 pg 10/2 Valerias presence (not shown before In FF@ 2, Doom is 
sharing his reminiscences with his servant Boris so it makes sense he might 
not have shared the more personal feelings aspect of the memory. (And 
omitting reference to Valeria does not change the essence of the tale.)
FF@ 2 pg 5/5 = M/SH 20 pg10/3   Victor discovers his mother was a witch; 
Valerias presence as this happens is new.
M/SH 20 pg 10/4  Victor  experiments and learns more
FF@ 2 pg 5/6 -> 7/4  Victors knowledge and power grow
M/SH 20 pg 10/5  11/1 show Victor sharing with Valeria his thirst for power 
and his decision  to leave Latveria and attend western universities to 
augment his mystic knowledge with science. This contradicts the events as 
depicted in FF@ 2 pg 7/5 8/4 where Victor is approached by State Universitys 
dean of science and offered a scholarship.  I suspect that the version in 
FF@ 2 is the real one:
i)	In FF@ 2,  Doom is sharing the tale with his retainer Boris who, 
having been there, knows the truth; Doom has too much class to be outright 
lying to someone who knows. 
ii)	It helps to remove some of the co-incidence of Doom picking State U 
of all the western universities to choose from
iii)	It could be chalked up to ego; In M/SH 20 Doom is reminiscing 
privately and it makes sense that he might sub-consciously suppress the 
thought that it was someone elses idea and therefore he would deal with 
the issue as if it had been his own decision.   

Is this when you use a    FF@ 2-FB ~ M/SH 20-FB  type of notation?
Or do you construct it as
FF@ 2
M/SH 20
FF@ 2
M/SH 20
FF@ 2
.
.
.

2)
FF 157
**IM 102-FB  (not 100% sure of the placement but according to the FRANKENSTEIN 
MONSTER chronology, the flashback is after M/TU 37 which limits the span. It 
fits nicely with FF 157, which positions Doom in his castle. At the end of FF 
157 Doom states, Never have I known a blacker hour! I feel cheated as if 
for once in his life Victor Von Doom lost control of events.  He was angry 
as shown by his yelling at the FF Get out of my sight!.  In the flashback 
we see a similarly angry Doom venting his frustration on a subservient 
scientist who in essence was merely bragging to his girl. 
GSSVTU 2
.
.
.
3)
FF 236
**FF 237
MICRO 41

DR. NEMESIS/DR. STOCKTON

**M/F 4-BTS  (Dr. Nemesis was there when Antman captured Msieu Tete in M/F 4 
as revealed by him in M/F 10 Pg 3/1)
**M/F 9
**M/F 10
**MICRO 42
MICRO 43
SOLOA 8/2

 DRACULA/VLAD TEPES

**MSM 23 ( I am not familiar enough with this part of marveldom to properly 
place this . Best I can narrow it is to after DRSTR2 14 and before DEF 95.

			*	*	*

My long-awaited X-MEN CONTINUITY LIST -- Maximum Sceurity to present!!
Posted by Jeph! on August 31, 2002 at 14:42:08:

Welcome to Jeph's first polished draft of the X-Men's timeline, from around 
Maximum Security until the present.  I'm doing my best to explain X-chronology 
as I go along, but if you haven't been reading the books, you probably won't 
understand this list 100%.

In putting this timeline together, I had a few "agendas"  story points that 
didn't quite fit, that I tried to explain using creative chronological 
placement.  This isnt to say that I bent the rules, but certain placements 
are slanted to  shall we say, enable certain plot points.  Which, I suppose, 
is how it should be.

First off  gaps.  There are a few large gaps occuring on this table  a six-
month gap between X-Force #113-114, and a TWO-YEAR gap between Cable #107 and 
Soldier X #1.  Since it seems that the Soldier-X crew aren't writing a "two 
years in the future" version of the MU, but the relative-present-day MU, I 
tried to push Cable #107 back as far as possible.  By the same token, I tried 
to push X-Force #114 forward as far as it would go.  X-Force #113 I left off 
the list, effectively pushing it back so far that the list (which begins with 
Uncanny X-Men #387) doesn't even cover it.

Speaking of gaps, there's a rather large apparent gap between X-Men #111 and 
#114.  This "implied gap" is prominent in X #114  the X-Men differently 
outfitted, the school almost ready to roll again  but the gap is larger 
than expected when you compare the X-List to its partner, the Kang War list.  
(Which is, after all, the reason I even began this X-List in the first place.)  
Here's the problem:  X #111 comes just before A3 #38, through news mentions 
that Quicksilver "plans to rejoin the Avengers soon" (and there he is in A3 
#38).  Meanwhile, in Cap #50, a pre-catlike Beast shows up at Cap's funeral, 
and Beast is catlike by X #114.  Now, on the Kang War list, there are NINETY 
comics stacked firmly between A3 #38 and CA3 #50  a full eight months' worth 
of most titles.  And while that doesn't necessarily mean that a lot of TIME 
has passed in the MU, or on the X-List, it certainly implies it.  Therefore, 
for a lot of the comics that could have gone either way  before X #114 or 
after X #126 (the next time things are back to status quo), I opted to put 
them before X #114, simply for purposes of padding the gap.

Secondly, I tried to use creative chronologizing to explain some of 
Nightcrawler's aberrant behavior.  In X-Men Unlimited #30/2, Kurt quits the 
X-Men, despondent over Colossus' death.  Yet, there he is in the Gambit & 
Bishop series, as well as back with the group in UX #395, with no explanation 
or, rather, no reference outside the XU story that he ever really left.  Next, 
in Wolverine #173, Kurt says that he is "no longer with the priesthood".  This 
doesn't fit with ANYTHING else we've been told.  My thought was that Frank 
Tieri was foreshadowing a UX plot development that never happened, due to 
editorial or writer shuffling.  But regardless, it's starting to look like 
Kurt has developed a pattern of quitting the associations he loves most, then 
thinking better of it and rejoining.  What if, I posited, he was doing this 
all at once?  Out of grief over Colossus' death, perhaps? 

And finally, I tried very hard to find a place to put the Kang War  finding 
a line-wide gap in order to place a world-conquering event  and although 
initially I was looking in the X #126 area, I eventually decided that, heck  
we already have Cap #50 pre-dating X #114, and essentially leading into A3 
#45-54 by virtue of Cap's wounds.  Why not, instead of using X #114-126 to 
pad out the time Cap is "dead", place X #114-up after the Kang War?  I mean, 
we're delaying Thor #32-53 until after the war, why not delay a similar time-
period of X-books?  And X #114 certainly marks a line-wide break period the 
likes of which I'd been searching for.  The Kang War probably fits better 
there than any other place I could manufacture

In any case, I have tried to place the following books in order:

Uncanny X-Men #387-411, @2000-2001
(New) X-Men #107-130, @2001
Bishop v2 #15-16
the Brotherhood #1-9
Cable v2 #87-107
Chamber #1-4
Cyclops #1-4
Gambit v3 #23-25
Gambit and Bishop: Sons of the Atom  Alpha, #1-6
Generation X #71-75
Iceman v2 #1-4
Nightcrawler v2 #1-4
Soldier X #1-2
Wolverine v2 #159-180, @2001
Wolverine/Hulk #1-4
X-Factor v2 #1-4
X-Force #114-122
X-Man #71-75
X-Men: the Search for Cyclops #1-4
X-Men Unlimited #29-37
X-Treme X-Men #1-17, @2001
X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #1-4

And the following X-related appearances in other titles (which is mostly 
how the X-Men tie into the Kang War list, by the way):

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36
Avengers v3 #35, 51, 56
Black Panther v3 #25-28, 41-44 (41-47)
Captain America v3 #50
Deadpool v2 #56, 57, 60, 61, 67, 69 (56-69)
Maximum Security: Dangerous Planet; 2, 3 (1-3)
the Order #5-6 (1-6)
Thunderbolts #57-58 (54-60)

I started with "Maximum Security" because it was a nice solid line-wide 
story that cemented several different titles in time.  Not only can I know 
with absolute certainty that certain satellite X-books (Gambit #23, Bishop 
#15) tie into X-Men #107, I also know which issues of Avengers, Iron Man, 
and Hulk are taking place at that time.

I have listed stories that take place outside the scope of this timeline 
(MAXSEC  present), and where I think they go, on a separate list below.  
(Examples are various stories in X-men Unlimited.)

Also, for certain issues which I just don't have, or stories which I just 
couldn't place (the new X-Factor and Wolverine/Hulk series, for example), 
I have a list of those as well.  Please feel free to help me out with placing 
those issues.

By the way, I haven't gone into detail on the issues themselves  I haven't 
weeded out and annotated all the flashbacks, for example.  That will come 
later, but for now it was simpler to just place the bulk of the issues into 
a general order.

In general, feel free to pitch in and argue with me about placement  
especially if your name is Paul O'Brien.  ;)  This is, like I said, a 
polished first draft  I'm certainly open to revisions.

Here goes.

[Administrator's Note: Jeph later reposted the next segment of his message,
with corrections and updates, shown below in this file, so we've deleted that 
portion here.]

And that, my friends, brings us smack up to the present  until this coming 
Wednesday, when we get hit with Darkstar's funeral and more Shi'ar stuff in 
"New X-Men" #131.

----

Now, for a list of stories that take place somewhere off this timeline:

Soldier X #1-2  These take place about two years after Cable v2 #107.  I'd 
hold off on puttign them onto the MCP for a good long time, at least until 
more details about the series' time period are revealed.  It doesn't matter 
so much for the other characters, but Joe Robertson's appearance in #1 is 
cause for concern for me.

X-Men Unlimited #29/2  Colossus and a young Illyana are in a train wreck.  
Russ has it between UX #153-154.  Good enough for me (unless, is UX #153-154 
in the same arc?  I'll have to check).

X-Men Unlimited #30/3  Rogue parties in the south.  Russ has this mistakenly 
placed between flashbacks in XX #3.  It can't be there, since Rogue has optic 
blasts in those flashbacks, and here she does not.  If we want to keep it as 
current as possible, the best place for it would be between X #106 and UX 
#387, before MaxSec and before Rogue's powers mutate and her angst begins 
in earnest.

X-Men Unlimited #31/1  Jean and Rogue encounter psychich evil.  Russ has 
this just before X #109, but that can't be, as Jean is off in the X:SFC series 
at the time.  We can't push it AFTER X #109, either, because Rogue has 
developed optic blasts by that point.  To put it before Jean's departure 
would place it just after X #108, but we have to assume that Jean left almost 
IMMEDIATELY after #108  after all, she managed to miss Moira's funeral.  
So, we could place this story between MaxSec and UX #388, part one of the 
"Dream's End" story where Moira dies  except that in UX #388, Rogue's powers 
are still out of control from her mutation in X #107.  So we need to push this 
story back before MaxSec as well  likely into the same gap between X #106 and 
UX #387 that the previous story fit into.

X-Men Unlimited #32/1  Dazzler's "Beyond the Music" special airs.  Beast 
and Hawkeye are watching this special at Avengers Mansion, which places it 
quite a ways back  Hawkeye has been with the T-Bolts since A3 #12.  Of 
course, if we wanted to keep this as current as possible, we could place 
it into the small lull after the Avengers/T-Bolts crossover in A3 #34, during 
the time when Hawkeye is waiting around Avengers Mansion for the Avengers to 
come up with a way of tracking Moonstone.  Then again, there's a reference to 
Hulk having had a fight with the Abomination that broke his TV, and since the 
A3 #34 placing puts the story before MaxSec (which is in A3 #35 and Hulk v3 
#21), this puts the Hulk's appearance before his fight with Abomination in 
H3 #25.  His most recent fight before that would be in Hulk v2 #472-474, and 
I dont have those issues  did they happen to take place where the Hulk was 
living at the time?  Is there any way that his reference in this story to his 
TV breaking during a fight with the Abomination can be made to work?

X-Men Unlimited #32/2  Kurt in his classic outfit (so, pre-GAM3@2000), at a 
church but not yet a member of the priesthood.  To keep it current, it has to 
go into the six-month gap between UX #380 and X #100  and fairly early on, 
too, since Kurt isn't even a priest-in-training.  This story, however, could 
be where he gets the inspiration to join.

X-Men Unlimited #33/4  During the Dark Phoenix saga  I don't have the 
issues with me, but it takes place during the scene where Phoenix drives 
Wyngarde insane.  True, it doesn't line up properly with that story's 
continuity, but the ENTIRE STORY could be an illusion  ending with Wyngarde 
slumped and drooling on the floor of the Hellfire Club.

X-Men Unlimited #37  Kitty's around, sleeping at the mansion, not depressed 
about Colossus' death.  Into the six-month gap with ye, I say.  Likely before 
GAM3@2000, because of that annual's throwaway notation to Kitty just returning 
from a brief absence  which itself is probably an allusion to "what happened 
in Genosha" from X #100.

----

And, here, are the stories I can't (or won't) yet place:

Weapon X: the Draft  I'm waiting until the regular series starts to try to 
place any of these five one-shots  the same goes for their recent Wizard 1/2 
issue.

Wolverine/Hulk #1-4  the Savage Hulk, and a Wolverine who at least dreams 
about being in his yellow outfit (which would put things prior to W2 #162, 
by the way).  Without a better understanding of the Savage Hulk's chronology, 
especially given how he's prone to switching identities  not to mention, 
under medical study (I think) in Hulk issues in their 20's, I can't place 
these issues.

X-Factor v2 #1-4  Don't have the series and can't comment.

X-Force #123-129  Don't have 'em, don't care.  The only character overlap 
is in "Brotherhood" #8, and I feel safe slotting that between XFO #122-123.

X-Men Unlimited #33/3  Emma Frost and Selene squabble, back when they were 
both members of the Hellfire Club.  Anyone want to help me narrow the 
possibilities down, here?  Anyone?

X-Men Unlimited #33/5  a silent three-page sequence where a shipwreck victim 
sees Magneto on an island, building a fortress.  I have no idea where to put 
this  was there ever a time when Magneto built an island fortress?  With 
several burly and non-mutant-looking construction-worker types standing 
around?

X-Men Unlimited #35  Don't have the issue, but I don't think anything 
breathtakingly important happens in it, now does it?  They make an X-Men 
movie  that's all I can remember.

X-Statix #1-2  Don't have 'em, don't care.  No character overlap anyway.

----

Okay, that's it, fans!  Go on, rip it to shreds  I look forward to the 
feedback!

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Cable/Soldier X "Two year gap"
Posted by Sean Curtin on September 01, 2002 at 00:32:13:
In Reply to: My long-awaited X-MEN CONTINUITY LIST -- Maximum Sceurity to 
present!!
posted by Jeph! on August 31, 2002 at 14:42:08:

I don't think the two year gap should be taken as such--unless the character 
of Cable/Soldier X doesn't appear until 2010, we should assume that the 
reference to a two year gap is as accurate as the Marvel Universe celebrating 
Christmas on a quarterly basis.

--Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: Cable/Soldier X "Two year gap"
Posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2002 at 12:40:34:
In Reply to: Cable/Soldier X "Two year gap"
posted by Sean Curtin on September 01, 2002 at 00:32:13:

My take on it is -- there's a BIG GAP between the last "Cable" and the 
first "Soldier X".  On a relative scale such as the MCP, there's no way to 
measure this "two years" other than that it's ... a big gap.

Basically I'm waiting for any more character-crossover material, more 
interactivity with the MU.  Because in MCP-relative terms, for the entire 
supporting cast, the two-year gap doesn't matter one bit.  Nathan Summers' 
appearance in SX #1-FB goes right after his appearance in C2 #107.  
Blaquesmith's appearance goes right after his appearance in C2 #91 -- there's 
no need to write "two year gap" in their chronologies.

This argument is only relevant to folks like Joe Robertson, or whoever else 
wanders through the pages of SX -- and, in their wandering, perhaps drops a 
clue to where they belong.

And if Paul O'Brien is correct and the series is headed for cancellation with 
issue 12, or what have you -- I'd feel very comfortable slotting every 
appearance over the whole series into the same time-frame as the comics that 
hit the stands the day it was cancelled.

I.E., Joe Robertson's appearances in, say, SX #1, 7, and 12 would, in my 
mind, then be concurrent with his appearance in that month's ASM2 #56.

I'm just saying, hold off placing the books until we know more about the 
series, the world, and the time-frame.  We should try to derive SOME 
chronological meaning from this "two year" jump.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Magneto's Island
Posted by Jhaeman on September 01, 2002 at 09:33:32:
In Reply to: Cable/Soldier X "Two year gap"
posted by Sean Curtin on September 01, 2002 at 00:32:13:

As always, I am impressed!  I don't have much to contribute, as I don't buy 
new comics any more, but to answer the nearly last statement, in an almost 
complete run of New Mutants I acquired, Magneto has an island and spends 
time on it with a woman I don't recognize.  (I think the island might be 
something he raised from the ocean floor--I can't quite recall).

			*	*	*

Re: Magneto's Island
Posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2002 at 12:28:28:
In Reply to: Magneto's Island
posted by Jhaeman on September 01, 2002 at 09:33:32:

If we're thinking of the same place, that woman was Lee Forrester and the 
island was something he just found -- it was a lost part of Lemuria or 
something, if memory serves.  Magneto didn't build any part of the island 
himself (although he could have), and he was generally alone on it with Lee.

The island in the XU story was different in that Magneto had a lot of burly 
men standing around, watching him build.

I thought of that too.  Oh well -- I'm still thinkin'.  Thanks!

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: X-MEN CONTINUITY LIST -- Maximum Security to present -- revised V2.0 
(w/ fewer typos!)
Posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2002 at 16:53:19:
In Reply to: My long-awaited X-MEN CONTINUITY LIST -- Maximum Sceurity to 
present!!
posted by Jeph! on August 31, 2002 at 14:42:08:

Notes, revisions, etc.

First off, I noticed that Nightcrawler IS in "Brotherhood" #8, which means 
that I have to move it further up, closer to the spot where he rejoins the 
team behind-the-scenes.  However, I also noticed that Cable's appearance in 
this issue, in Brazil, corresponds to his appearance in C2 #105, where he's 
also in Brazil, rather than after #100 like I thought.  Therefore, while I 
may have to move "Brotherhood" up, that doesn't mean I have to push Cable 
#101-107 up too.

Secondly, the recent "Weapon X: the Draft  Agent Zero" one-shot apparently 
takes place before Copycat's death in DP2 #59  and considering it guest-stars 
Wolverine, I felt compelled to slot it into the list.

Thirdly, it's worth noting that in "Gambit & Bishop Alpha", Bishop dreams 
about the X-Men, including Cyclops, attacking him  and he doesn't seem to 
think it odd that Cyclops is back with the team.  This implies heavily that 
Scott is back, at least on a  part-time basis, by this point, and further 
confirms my placement of the G&B series between UX #391 and #X 111.

Fourthly, it seems that Magneto's search for troops in XU #36/2 began in the 
closing pages of X #110, where he attacks the Neo.  I moved XU #36/2 back 
closer to this, letting his stay in America become TWO trips to America, 
like this:

X #110, search begins
XU #36/2, search continues
ASM2 #36, helps out at the WTC site and goes home.
--
X #111-FB, makes warlike speeches in Genosha
X#111  returns to the US only briefly to kidnap Prof. X and begin the war.

Fifthly, I doped out the correct reading order of "Four Days", the GenX #71-74 
adventure that show the same day from several characters' point of view.  It 
appears below.

Sixthly, I tried like heck to fix all my typos.

Changed 

Maximum Security: Dangerous Planet  Prof. X and Cadre K turn back Ego's 
attack, but Z'Cann the Skrull, a telepath, is captured.

Maximum Security #1  the earth is sealed off and used as a prison planet 
for alien criminals.

Black Panther v3 #25, pp.1-20  Nikki's death leads Agent Ross to try to 
cheer the Panther up by arranging a visit from Storm.

Uncanny X-Men #387  Ross and Queen Divine Justice collect Storm in New 
Orleans.  Professor X takes a meeting with Lilandra, who asks him to hunt 
down Deathbird.

Bishop v2 #15  Professor X finds Bishop while chasing Deathbird.

Maximum Security #2  Prof. X and Cadre K are captured by the Shi'ar.

X-Men #107  Z'Cann and Bishop are sentenced to Earth.  Rogue's encounter 
with Z'Cann mutates her powers uncontrollably.  (A note in this issue claims 
that MaxSec #2 takes place BETWEEN X #107 and XU #29, but given that there's 
no character overlap and that X #107 carries directly into XU #29, I feel 
better placing the issues like this.)

X-Men Unlimited #29  Bishop and the X-Men, alongside Goliath and Warbird, 
attack Ronan's spaceship to steal defense information.

Gambit v3 #23  Gambit battles Ego, and gets an information disk from an 
alien guard.

Avengers v3 #35  Wolvie is seen in one panel battling aliens.  This issue 
leads directly into MAXSEC #3, with USAgent commandeering the Avengers.

Maximum Security #3  the Avengers, X-Men, and the rest save the earth as 
usual.  (There's a footnote to the effect that the Black Panther aided 
Professor X in escaping in BP3 #25, but nothing like that appears in the 
issue.)

Black Panther v3 #25 pp.20-22  the Panther returns home to find Storm 
waiting for him.

Black Panther v3 #26-29  cleaning up the aliens from MaxSec, a Deviant 
child is found that plunges Wakanda, Lemuria, Atlantis, and Latveria into 
hostilities.  Storm and Magneto guest-star.

Uncanny X-Men #388  Part one of "Dream's End".  Storm is back with the X-Men 
and Magneto is back in Genosha.  Generation X cameos (between #66-71 of their 
own title [67-70 take place at an earlier date]), as does X-Force, which 
presents a problem.  X-Force "die" in XFO #113, and resurface six months 
later in #114, having been underground spy terrorists the whole time.  In 
order to give them six months, I placed XFO #113 as far back as possible  
back, in fact, before MaxSec.  This issue places them at "their San Francisco 
HQ", which on the surface is bad  but honestly, they could just be back there 
that one day, collecting supplies and personal mementos.  I don't think they've 
been back to San Fran since #101, which means that wherever we place this cameo 
it's likely to look wrong.  At least between #113-114 the team has some spare 
time.  Domino is miscolored and has no "eyepatch", which, while an artist 
mistake, could conceivably be used to argue that the team was in disguise.  
(Which they were  albeit a different disguise  when next seen in XFO #114.)

Cable v2 #87  Part two of "Dream's End".

Bishop v2 #16  Part three of "Dream's End", and this series' final issue.

X-Men #108  "Dream's End" concludes, with the deaths of Senator Kelly and 
Moira MacTaggart.

Generation X #71-74  These four issues take place over the course of one day, 
shortly after Moira's death but before her funeral.  Banshee has just gotten 
the news.  The reading order of these four issues goes like this:

 GenX #74 pp. 1-4  6am, Husk exercises while Banshee and the White Queen 
awaken.
 GenX #72 pp. 1-4  Banshee and M practice fighting without powers.
 GenX #71 pp. 1-6  Chamber wakes up, Skin prepares for his run, they meet 
the girls in the kitchen and discuss their new outfits.
 GenX #73 pp. 1-7  Skin jogs, Banshee gets the news of Moira's death  Skin 
and an upset Banshee head into Boston.
 GenX #71 p. 7  Chamber, Jubilee, and M drive into NYC.
 GenX #72 pp. 5-6  the three arrive, get out of the car, and make plans to 
meet back.
 GenX #71 pp. 8-18  Chamber meets a deaf girl, Rana, who he telepathically 
talks with.  They empathize with each other's cut-off contact with the rest 
of the world.
 GenX #72 pp. 7-20  Jubilee and M shop, and get into a situation with 
gunmen on the subway.
 GenX #73 pp. 8-18  Banshee tells Skin about Moira, then is kidnapped by 
his old spy buddies.  looking through his palm-pilot, they force him to reveal 
a password for security access to the Academy.
 GenX #74 pp. 5-6  Husk, sitting at home, receives an incorrect password 
from Banshee's palm-pilot, and locks him out of the system.
 GenX #73 pp. 19-22  Locked out of the system, the spies become furious, 
but Skin saves Banshee in a stolen car.
 GenX #74 pp. 8-17  The power goes down in the mansion, and Husk sees 
ghosts of former students, who direct her to a hidden letter.
 GenX #71 pp. 19-20  In NYC, Chamber and Rana walk by the subway, which is 
cordoned off with reports of mutant girls.  Rana asks to see him again.
 GenX #72 pp. 21-22  M and Jubilee, having jumped off the subway car, calm 
down and go to meet Chamber.
 GenX #71 pp. 21-22  Chamber meets with the girls, and deliberately drops 
Rana's number out the car window on the way home, afraid to expose her to the 
dangers of mutant life.
 GenX #74 pp. 18-22  The three arrive home from NYC and remove the security 
lockout, Husk leaves and delivers the note to the old woman for whom it was 
so long ago intended.

There  if you're a Marvel editor looking to make a TPB out of it, that's how 
to do it.

X-Men: the Search for Cyclops #1-4  Cable and Jean strike out to find Scott.  
According to Rob Weinberg, writer of Cable, they miss Moira's funeral while 
they're gone  and due to their conspicuous absence from X #109, the obligatory 
feel-good Christmas issue, it's assumed they don't return from Egypt until 
after that issue.

Uncanny X-Men #389-FB  Moira's funeral, shortly after her death.

Wolverine v2 #158  Russ already has this issue placed here, and I agree, 
based on publication order.

Gambit v3 #24  Placed, again, based on publication order.  Nothing in the 
issue implies any other placement hints, other than that Gambit is kidnapped 
from New Orleans  but he's been shuttling back and forth from N'awlins to 
Salem Center ever since his series began.

Uncanny X-Men #389  Prof. X misses Moira, Cecelia Reyes fights her Rave 
addiction.

X-Men Unlimited #33/6  Sabretooth kills, kidnaps, and drives a cab.  He has 
long hair here, so this is before his forced recruitment into Weapon X.  
Trying to keep it as current as possible, I'm placing it between his last 
appearance with the Brotherhood  X #108  and his Weapon X encounter in W2 
#160.

Wolverine #159-161  Wolvie fights Mister X.  Rogue cameos here before she 
develops optic blasts, so the whole arc should take place before X #109.

X-Men #109  Christmas at the mansion.  Rogue's mutating powers cause her to 
develop Cyclops' optic blasts.  Storm persuades a splinter group of X-Men to 
leave with her on a secret mission to find Destiny's Diaries  the future 
so-called "X-Treme Team".

Cable v2 #88  Cable finds himself unable to get over Moira's death.  (According 
to Rob Weinberg, X:SFC took place between C2 #87-88  however, Cable's been 
wearing Cyclops' visor around his neck in Scott's honor since UX #381.  At the 
end of X:SFC, he gives it back to Scott  and yet there it is again, around his 
neck, in C2 #88 and 89.  I tried, therefore, to slot the X:SFC series after C2 
#89, but with no luck  Blaquesmith cameos in the X:SFC series, and C2 #89-95 
is a continuous arc in which Blaquesmith disappears from Cable's life, 
seemingly for good.  [In fact, we don't see him again until Soldier X #1!]  
Therefore, despite the art, the X:SFC series should go where Weinberg intended 
it to go.  We can assume, perhaps, that Scott got the new-model visor he wears 
in current issues upon his return, and gave the old one back to Cable in 
thanks?)

Uncanny X-Men Annual 2000  Cable appears here, so this is before he cuts ties 
to the team in C2 #92.

Cable v2 #89-95  in an arc that takes place over two weeks or more, Cable 
takes down the covert dark Sisterhood  but not before they drive Blaquesmith 
and Irene away from him, and frame him for the murder of Senator Kelly  which 
causes Cable to cut his X-Men ties.  Henry Peter Gyrich appears in #95, by the 
way, despite the fact that he's the Panther's security liaison from BP3 #25-48, 
but this shouldn't pose a problem  nothing in the issue mentions the CSA or 
Gyrich's official duties, just G.W. Bridge approaching him in his unmarked 
office for a personal favor.  (Also, in #92, some college students state "That 
Magneto creep nearly started world war three!"  this is meant to be a 
reference to the "Eve of Destruction" storyline in X #111-113, but that's 
impossible  both the "Professor X starts to suspect Cable" and the "Rachel at 
a college rally" subplots in #92 are boldly dated "two weeks ago", making them 
concurrent  and implying that the Prof. X subplot in this issue takes place 
AFTER X #113.  But the Beast appears in this issue with Prof. X, and by X #113 
the Beast has gone off with the X-Treme Team  Jean notes in UX #392 that 
they've left.  Therefore, the issue and the arc must take place BEFORE Beast 
leaves  meaning that the college student's reference is likely to the events 
of the recent "Magneto: Dark Seduction" miniseries, which guest-starred the 
Avengers in Genosha and therefore could have been covered heavily by American 
news media.)

Gambit v3 #25  a totally self-contained issue, with no placement clues other 
than that it's between GAM3 #24 and Gambit & Bishop Alpha.  I placed it here, 
before Colossus' death, because Gambit doesn't seem depressed or bothered in 
this issue  in fact, he's at his flirtatious best.

Uncanny X-Men #390  the Beast synthesizes a fatal cure for the Legacy Virus, 
and Colossus commits suicide in order to release the cure into the world.

Wolverine v2 #176-FB  Colossus' funeral, and BOY is everyone out of costume.  
I really can't explain this one away  these folks are in PRE-X #100 costumes  
and it's not like we could say this was one of Colossus' OTHER funerals, as 
he's never "died" before.  I guess we have to chalk it up to artist error and 
let it go.  By the way, it's worth noting that Cyclops attends the funeral, 
although he doesn't officially rejoin the X-Men until after UX #391.

X-Men #110  Kitty Pryde, missing since X #100, returns to the mansion, resigns 
as an X-Man, scatters Colossus' ashes across Siberia, and enrolls in college.

X-Men Unlimited #30/2  Nightcrawler, despondent over Colossus' death, quits 
the X-Men temporarily.  Storm and Gambit are still around in this story.

X-Men Unlimited #36/2, pp.1-11  Magneto liberates captive mutants during his 
search for recruits in America.  (A search begun in X #110  and one that will 
end with the Blob and Random, at least, as his recruits.)

Wolverine v2 #162-166  Wolvie and the Beast are framed by the new Weapon X 
for the murder of a senator and sent to prison.  Beast is badly wounded and 
Wolvie loses an eye.  The Beast mentions Colossus' death here, but seems over 
it by this point.  (As with Cable #92 above, the director of Weapon X 
references "what happened with Magneto in Genosha" in #166  meant to be a 
reference to X #113, but impossible, based on the Beast's presence  he's 
left the main team by X #113.  It's unlikely, too, that this arc takes place 
after X #113, after XX #3 and just before X #114, when the Beast has been 
returned from the X-Treme team but just before he mutates into cat-form, 
because in #162 when Beast is listing off recent deaths, he mentions Moira 
and Colossus.  He does NOT mention Psylocke, who dies in his arms in XX #2, 
so this arc really shouldn't take place after XX #3.  The Director must be 
referencing the events of "Dark Seduction", just like the college student 
was in "Cable"  backing that up, if obliquely, is the fact that the director 
lists "what happened with Magneto" and "Senator Kelly being assassinated" in 
THAT ORDER  implying to me that Kelly is the most recent noteworthy event.)

X-Treme X-Men #3-FB  Rogue, Psylocke and T-Bird work out in the Danger Room, 
so they haven't left the mansion yet  but they're wearing their red X-Treme 
outfits, so they're getting ready to go.  I've placed this here, between W2 
#166-167, because the Beast is not present at the session, and I'm guessing 
that perhaps the other X-Tremers are killing time waiting for him to heal up 
from his recent prison adventure before they set off.

Wolverine v2 #167-169  the eye Wolvie lost in #164 has yet to fully 
regenerate here.  Also, it's noted in #167 that the Beast is still convalescing 
at the mansion.

Uncanny X-Men #391  Cyclops spends "the weekend before he heads back to the 
X-Men" with his dad.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36  Wolvie is seen with both eyes, Cyclops is present, 
as is Storm  none in costume.  Magneto makes a cameo appearance, which would 
fit well considering that he's covertly in America preparing for his own war 
(as seen in XU #36/2 and X #111).  (By the way, if you consider portions of 
the "Heroes" charity book to be presenting the MU version of 9/11, you'll spot 
the X-Treme Team in their red outfits, and Wolvie in his yellow-and-blues  
both of which also fit with this placement.)

X-Treme X-Men #2-FB  Storm and the Beast track down and collect an upset 
Rogue, saying "it's time to go".  This scene doesn't make much sense even in 
the confines of the XX series alone  there was never a sequence where Rogue 
ran off in the first place.  I placed it here because it seemed like the team 
was JUST about to leave, and Rogue had been having last-minute jitters.  
Placed in the context of my list, you could read it as Rogue running off (say, 
affected by the 9/11 attacks, or just the mutation of her powers), and Storm 
gave her time to herself until the Beast healed up, then the two of them went 
and convinced her to return.  (This hypothesis fits with the 9/11 stories in 
that Storm and Rogue are sighted [in ASM2 #36 and the non-symbolic portions 
of "Heroes"], but the Beast is not  presumably healing still.)

Gambit & Bishop #1-FB  the X-Treme Team's chronology takes another hit, as 
the team departs  but Bishop and the Beast stay behind, mind-controlled by 
Stryfe.  Seen leaving the mansion are Storm, Rogue, T-Bird, and Psylocke 
(wearing their "Revolution" outfits, which I dismiss by Bishop's saying he 
"remembers it vaguely, like a dream").

X-Men #111-FB  in the week between the X-Treme Team's departure and the Beast 
remaining behind, he is interviewed by BNBC about the Legacy Virus cure.

Gambit & Bishop: Alpha, #1-6  Gambit and Bishop free Prof. X, the Beast, and 
Nightcrawler from Stryfe's mental control, then try to prevent Cable from 
killing Stryfe.  (Yep, that's Nightcrawler, who quit in XU #30/2  but given 
that Stryfe was able to keep Beast and Bishop from departing when THEY wanted 
to, perhaps he did the same for Nightcrawler?)  My assumption is that at the 
end of this series, Cable, Gambit, and Bishop went their own ways  Bishop 
hooking back up with the Beast (and Sage, probably) and rejoining the rest 
of the team, who had been waiting to rendezvous with them at a swanky hotel 
somewhere.)  Cyclops is apparently back with the team by this point, which 
reinforces this series' placement, and works well with ASM2 #36.

Cable v2 #96  This is as good a place as any for #96, which is a one-shot 
story featuring Cable and the world's oldest Cro-Magnon.

X-Treme X-Men #3-FB  the night before the now-fully-reunited X-Treme Team 
leave for Spain, they dress up and celebrate.  Psylocke and T-Bird become a 
couple.

X-Treme X-Men #1-FB  the next day, the team takes off for Spain.

X-Men #111-FB  in news footage, Quicksilver is found addled and wounded aboard 
a freighter thrown out of Genosha, the work of Magneto.

X-Men Unlimited #30/4  a recovered Quicksilver hurries to warn Wolverine 
that, now that the Legacy Virus is cured, Magneto's army is back to full 
strength, and he is planning war.

X-Men #111  as a newscast airs about the Genoshan threat, Magneto kidnaps 
Professor X and takes him back to Genosha as a symbol of war.

Uncanny X-Men #392  "Eve of Destruction", part 1, as Jean Grey is forced to 
assemble a new X-Team from scratch  as she notes, everyone else is gone.  
(Creative chronology placement has taken care of the X-Treme Team, 
Nightcrawler, Gambit, and Cable, but there's simply no explanation for the 
absences of Archangel and Iceman.  And where the heck are Cecelia Reyes or 
Forge, or even Dani Moonstar, that Jean doesn't ask them?  Sigh.)

X-Men #112  "Eve of Destruction" part 2.  Cyclops, back with the team, sneaks 
into Genosha with Wolverine

Uncanny X-Men #393  "Eve" part 3  Dazzler tells us that the Mojoverse has 
almost been destroyed by X-Baby versions of the AoA characters, who also claim 
to have killed Longshot.

X-Men #113  Wolvie stabs Magneto through the spine, crippling him, as Prof. X talks the Genoshan troops down from war.<br><font color=Red>X-Men Unlimited #34/3</font>  Sunfire is forced due to family obligation to briefly work for the Japanese mafia.  I place this story here to possibly explain why Sunfire was unavailable to help the X-Men during "Eve of Destruction", but his younger sister Leyu was more than happy to answer the call in his place.<br><font color=Red>Avengers v3 #38</font>  Quicksilver has rejoined the Avengers, as the news broadcast in X #111 said he would.  I'm placing this issue on the X-List mainly to give it some ties to the Kang War list  please note the relative distance between A3 #38 and CA3 #50 on both lists all issue placements between now and X #114 are, at least in part, a deliberate attempt to pad this space.<br><font color=Blue>Cable v2 #97-100</font>  Cable fights the Shining Path in Peru, and finally rids himself of the techno-organic virus.  Moved back to place it roughly in-between #96 and #101.

X-Force #117-FB  Prof. X, wearing the earliest occurrence of a Morrison-era 
black-and-yellow outfit, helps Mister Sensitive gain some control of his 
powers.

X-Men Unlimited #31/3  X-Man in "Gold".

X-Man #71-74  Russ has these occurring after XU #31/3  and, not having the 
issues, I don't know why  in terms of publishing order, XU #31/3 would work 
better between #74-75, but there may be story reasons for placing it here that 
I'm missing.  Anyone?

Deadpool v2 #56  Siryn guest-stars.  Between W2 #155 and DP2 #61 for her, 
which doesn't narrow it down much.

X-Men Unlimited #32/3  a stupid, stupid Starjammers story.  After their 
appearance in UX #387, I should think  although I wonder when they went 
back to their "classic" lineup, after the shakeups in the Ellis/Pacheco 
limited series from way back when

X-Man #75  Nate dies.

X-Men Unlimited #33/1  the Blob is out of Genosha and back causing trouble.

Weapon X  the Draft: Wild Child-FB  the flashback to how Kyle lost his 
voice.  Guest-starring Sunfire, as WC and Sabretooth try to recruit him into 
the new Weapon X program with very little luck.

Weapon X  the Draft: Agent Zero - this issue appears to take place before 
Copycat dies in DP2 #59  Agent Zero, whoever he is, is forced to attempt to kill his "old friend" Wolvie.<br><font color=Red>Deadpool v2 #57-60</font>  the "Agent of Weapon X" storyline, with cameos from Wolvie (taking place anytime after W2 #166).  Weapon X has only recently begun recruiting its agents, and Deadpool is not one of their successes.  He dies at the end of the arc.<br><font color=Red>Deadpool v2 #61-64</font>  Deadpool's funeral, resurrection, and further antics.  Present at DP's funeral are Cable, Sasquatch, Black Panther, Juggernaut, and Wolverine.  The only problem could be Black Panther, but it's probable, given the proximity of TB #54-60, that the Panther's appearance here is between BP3 #40-41.  (See the work-in-progress Kang War list for more on this.)<br><font color=Blue>X-Force #114-115</font>  this is as far forward as I could place these issues  that'll have to do it for the six-month gap.  The whole team apparently dies, AGAIN, at the end of #115, but they pop up again good as new in #117, the second issue of the "new, commercial X-Force" arc.

Cable v2 #101-104  Cable fights clones in Albania  his powers are now only 
starting to get out of control, so I'm placing Deadpool's funeral before this 
point.  I've placed these issues in-between XFO #115-117 to give the "real" 
X-Force time to recover from the explosion that apparently killed Jesse 
Aaronson  when next they show up, Cannonball has dyed his hair back to blond 
and Meltdown has changed back to a previous costume, and they've hooked back 
up with Domino  clearly SOME time has passed.

X-Force #116-120  Cyclops and Wolvie cameo in #116, the "former" X-Force 
shows up alive and well in #117 (minus Jesse Aaronson, the implication being 
that he really did die), and Wolvie guest-stars in #120 in his Morrison-era 
outfit.
Thunderbolts #54-60  Graviton's bid for power in #57 lifts, among others, 
Cyclops, Jean, and Wolvie into the sky.  X-Force is also shown floating, their 
lineup including Phat and Vivisector, but notably NOT Saint Anna and Bloke.  
So, definitely after XFO #119, and likely after #120 as well.

X-Treme X-Men #1-3  Psylocke is killed by Vargas, and Beast is badly wounded.

Captain America v3 #50/4-6  Storm returns to the mansion with the injured, 
healing, but not-yet-mutated Beast just in time to attend Cap's funeral.  
(Although the dialogue in XX #3 suggests that Storm does NOT go back to 
mansion with Beast, as the issue ends the rest of the X-Treme Team walk off 
with Betsy's casket, leaving Storm and Hank alone on the tarmac.  My assumption 
is that he talked her into returning with him, if only briefly.)

X-Treme X-Men #4  Storm returns to Spain and mourns Psylocke with the rest 
of the team.

Wolverine v2 Annual 2001  the prelude to #170-172's "Stay Alive".  Both 
stories in the annual take place one after another.

Wolverine v2 #170-176  two arcs, #170-172 and #173-176, that follow each 
other directly.  In #173, Nightcrawler states that he is "no longer with the 
priesthood", a comment which has bedeviled me.  I theorize that he is likely 
still quite depressed over Colossus' death  possibly compounded by news of 
Psylocke's and Captain America's  and questioning his every life decision.  
He gets badly wounded in this arc and recuperates under the care of the 
X-Men  I would push this back closer to XU #30/2, but the team are wearing 
their Morrison outfits, and this works best here.  By the way, when Kurt is 
approached he is wearing his Morrison-(or should I say, Joe Casey and Ian 
Churchill)-era outfit as well, despite having not been a team member since 
XU #30/2.  I'm guessing they gave it to him when they saw him at Cap's 
funeral

X-Men Unlimited #31/2  Cyclops, while buying Kurt a cane during the holiday 
season, is attacked by street thugs.  Placing this here works well given that 
Kurt is recuperating at the mansion at this time  why else would Scott be 
buying him a CANE?  and the proximity to Cap #50 confirms that it's around 
Christmastime  after the holiday, possibly, but still the SEASON.  (By the 
way, Paul Bourcier, if you do decide to push all references to Christmas back 
to X #109 on your absolute calendar, please bear in mind that Cyclops was MIA 
and presumed dead at that time  so THIS story would have to be pushed back to 
the PREVIOUS X-Christmas, which would be in UX #365.  On the other hand, if 
nobody cares, I'm leaving it here because of the resonances to the Christmas 
season in Cap #50 and Nightcrawler's recent injuries.)

X-Force #121-122  Lacuna has her brief flirtation with joining the team.  I 
think the Kang war works better between XFO #122-123 than it does between 
#120-121, so I'm slotting these here, just before the event.

Avengers v3 #45-54  the KANG WAR!  Wolvie cameos in #51, and unnamed X-Men 
appear BTS attacking a prison on #52.

Cyclops #1-4  Issue #1 features a seated Prof. X, which means it takes place 
before X #114, but also the CAT-BEAST!  Given the length of time the series 
takes, #1 must be rather far in the past relative to X #114, making it very 
likely the FIRST appearance of the newly-mutated Beast.

X-Men Unlimited #36/3  cat-Beast cares for a mutant feline.  This story 
appears to take place after Xavier's opens to student again, but there are 
references to "rumors" of Third Species (U-Man) activity  and since Beast 
views this activity full-on in X@2001, this story would have to go before it.  
I would place the tale between #116 and the annual, but it takes place over 
three weeks  and that doesn't jibe with references in #117 that suggest #116 
was a very short time prior.  Therefore, I'm placing this story before X #114, 
with the reference to the school being open probably referring to something 
Prof. X said in #114  namely, that the school is currently ENROLLING, 
lthough classes have not yet begun.

Iceman v2 #1-4  Iceman goes to Japan.  The program he encounters, the 
Augmen, are forerunners of John Sublime's U-Men  there are references to the 
fact that the U-Man grafting program has not been made to work on adults 
yet  a clue that this story takes place well before X@2001 and X #18-120.  
There's also a brief cameo of cat-Beast, but he's having trouble contacting 
Bobby over traditional equipment  suggesting Cerebra isn't complete yet (so 
I'm placing the story pre-X #114).  Perhaps this explains why Iceman isn't 
around for UX #394.

X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #1-4  Cat-Beast revisits his old team, taking 
them to the Savage Land in a Blackbird (meaning that this takes place before 
Prof. X mothballs the Blackbird for the X-Jets).

Generation X #75  the school closes down.  Chamber is invited to join the 
X-Men, Emma Frost is invited to meet with Prof. X  a meeting which she tries 
to postpone by a week, but eventually agrees to.

X-Men Unlimited #34/2  Emma hallucinates, apparently coming to the conclusion 
that her sister Cordelia had a hand in killing the Hellions in UX #281.  (This 
is complete writer cock-up, as it was Fitzroy who killed them, but does it 
have enough plausibility to count as a retcon?  Could Cordelia have been 
working with Fitzroy  did he have any unnamed female assistants in those 
issues?)  In any case, at the end of the story Emma decides to take the 
meeting with Prof. X.  I place this story here, right after she gets on the 
X-helicopter at the end of GENX #75, because there's no good place before #75 
to put it  in the XU story, Emma is in Europe with some boytoy, and that 
doesn't fit pre-#75, since she didn't know about the meeting until Prof. X 
called her IN #75.  My best guess is that Emma got on the X-helicopter (staffed 
by two nobodies in X-costumes), then had second thoughts (as she did in #75) 
and mentally commanded them to fly her to Europe  this would mean that the 
boytoy she was with in the XU story might have been one of the pilots from 
GENX #75.  After a day or two of hallucinating, she finally decided to face 
up to her responsibilities, and headed back to the meeting.  One can assume 
that this is the meeting where she was convinced to teach young mutants in 
Genosha, and send the cream of the crop (like the Stepford Cuckoos) to Xavier's 
school.

The Brotherhood #1-6  street-level mutant anarchy.  Prof. X cameos in a 
phone conversation in #4, which is likely what leads him to discover the 
Brotherhood's existence, and mobilize the X-Men to so thoroughly wipe them 
out by #8.  Moved this far up to put the whole series after the Kang War, 
and on the assumption that Prof. X doesn't work slowly.

Cable v2 #105 - Cable visits Rio de Janeiro, and learns for the first time 
just how out-of-control his powers are.

Nightcrawler v2 #1-4  I'm placing this issue here as Kurt's last solo 
adventure before he rejoins the team.  His mood is much improved, and he 
seems to be back with the church again, but he notes "I've been away from 
the X-Men for far too long."  I'm placing it this far forward to allow him 
the maximum time to grieve for Peter and rejoin the priesthood.  He is 
still "not yet ordained" in this series.

the Brotherhood #7-9  Prof. X appears in #8 interrogating the terrorists, 
so this is before his switch with Cassandra.  The X-Men are shown routing 
the Brotherhood, but Nightcrawler is with them, placing this relatively 
late, after he rejoins the team. Cyclops is back from his Savage Land 
adventure.  We don't see Iceman, so maybe he's still in Hong Kong.  Cable 
is shown taking out cells in Brazil, putting this right after his Rio 
adventure in C2 #105.  Also, the X-Force lineup shown on a cola billboard 
includes Lacuna, so this arc post-dates at least XFO #122.

Cable v2 #106-107   Cable's out-of-control powers cause him to  well, run 
off and hide.  These have to be placed after "Brotherhood" #8, which itself 
has to be placed rather late to allow for Nightcrawler's appearance, so this 
is apparently the earliest I can push back C2 #107, the start of the two-year 
gap to Soldier X.  Even more imperative, now, that we don't place SX into 
the MCP until we figure out how far forward we can conceivably push it.

Uncanny X-Men #394  The X-Men fight Warp Savant, in the first official 
"new-look" issue.  Wolvie and Jean kiss.  The Beast is back, behind the 
scenes, putting the final touches on the new Cerebra machine.

X-Men Unlimited #34/1  Jubilee and Skin reach LA  they started driving there 
from NY in GenX #75.

X-Men Unlimited #33/2  this story features a damaged Sentinel found washed 
up on the beach, sitting inactive in a carnival sideshow until it gets 
repaired, kills two mutants around it, and detecting a large quantity of 
mutants eight miles north, "in Manhattan", heads ominously off.  As far as 
I know, we never see this Sentinel again, which raises the question  why?  
Now, it's a stretch, but could this malfunctioning Sentinel be the one that 
attacked Sydney, Australia, in X #114?  Perhaps it was actually IN Australia 
the whole time, and, being reactivated and thinking it was still in America, 
mistook Sydney for Manhattan.  The story never states that it takes place in 
America, and it would explain where the Sentinel in #114 came from  Cyclops 
noted that it was "old decommissioned hardware", after all.

New X-Men #114-116  Grant Morrison takes over.  The X-Men plan to reopen 
the school, neo-Sentinels destroy Genosha, and Cassandra Nova swaps minds 
with Prof. X and outs the X-Men on national TV.  Emma Frost is found in the 
ruins of Genosha with diamond-hard skin, and joins the X-Men.

Uncanny X-Men #395-398  Nightcrawler and Iceman are back.  Very soon after 
Prof. X's announcement, as stated in #397  heck, this team doesn't even know 
about it yet.  Chamber "hasn't shown up yet", meaning he was invited to the 
team fairly recently.

X-Treme X-Men #5-8  very close after X #116, the X-Treme Team reacts to 
Prof. X's "outing" them.  Some very strange dialogue implies that they 
traveled to Genosha and helped the search-and-rescue efforts, which leads 
me to place this farther away from X #116 than the UX issues  the X-Treme 
Team could very well have missed Prof. X's "outing" while helping in Genosha, 
and only have read the news upon their return.  They catch another newsflash 
of Gambit in trouble, and head to Australia.

New X-Men Annual 2001 the X-Men travel to Hong Kong, where Prof. X has set 
up the first of many X-Corporations.  They bust a mutant-organ-harvesting 
operation run from afar by John Sublime (note now that the graft process works 
on adults), and rescue Xorn, a mutant with a star for a brain.  Emma appears, 
putting it after X #116.

New X-Men #117  I'm keeping this issue as close as I can to #116, given 
Wolvie's statement that he's been meditating in the woods for four days to 
get over the pain of having his arm burned off in #116.  (And, yes, he must 
have been in terrible pain during the annual, but there's no just other place 
to slot it.)  The school is now open, and Cassandra Nova, masquerading as 
Xavier, has a student beat the Beast into a coma, and takes off for the Shi'ar 
empire.

New X-Men #118-121  John Sublime's U-Men attack the mansion.  Beast wakes 
up from his coma and reveals the mind-switch.  Jean and Emma rescue Prof. X 
from inside Cassandra's mind, but discover that she's booby-trapped her own 
body, and Prof. X is dying

Uncanny X-Men #399-400  Stacey X is rescued and joins the team.  Wolvie 
appears in #400, as Kurt is tortured by the Supreme Pontiff, an event he is 
made to completely forget.

Uncanny X-Men Annual 2001  the X-Men track down a drug that gives kids 
temporary mutants powers, peddled by the Vanisher out of Cuba.  The Beast 
cameos, analyzing the drug, so this is after his coma from X #117-120.

New X-Men #122  Cassandra takes over the Shi'ar empire, the X-Men plan their 
first press conference.

Uncanny X-Men #401  Banshee sobers up and founds the X-Corps, Wolvie defends 
Stacey X's ways to Nightcrawler.  Madroxes steal Mastermind Jr. out of prison 
(she was captured in C2 #87).  I've placed this between X #122-123 because of 
Angel's comment in X #123 that Wolvie keeps leaving the mansion on mysterious 
adventures.  We can assume his hanging out with the other X-team happens 
during these times.

X-Treme X-Men #9  Jean shows up, in psychic form, just hours before the 
press conference in X #123.  Sage comes out of her coma and Lady Mastermind 
(the OTHER Wyngarde daughter) is defeated.  (XX #5-8 generally have to be 
happening DURING X #117-122 and the rest above, not "in-between"  my 
placement of XX #5 above is meant to be the STARTING point of an arc running 
fairly concurrently with the X and UX issues.)

New X-Men #123-126  the Shi'ar crash Jean's press conference and Cassandra 
returns.  The X-Men manage to cast her out of Prof. X's body and into a 
robotic mind  and in the process, new recruit Xorn heals Xavier's spine.

Uncanny X-Men #402-407  #406 takes place after Regan Wyngarde is taken out 
in XX #9, and #407 takes place during a time when things are crazy back at 
the mansion, but Jean has time to use Cerebra to track down Chamber and N
ightcrawler.  The best spot for it is during the cleanup from the Shi'ar 
attack in #126.  The Eiffel Tower is knocked down in this arc.  (This arc 
is another one that could be taking place in the background DURING X #123-126, 
rather than entirely after.  However, #406-on have to occur after XX #9.)

X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001  the Shadow King attacks Rogue in Sydney.  In a 
back-up story, we see Kitty at college.

Avengers v3 #56-FB  Beast and Thor fight the Elements of Doom.  Here we 
start to tie in more with the post-Kang aspects of the Kang War list.

X-Treme X-Men #10-17  Khan invades Madripoor on an arc taking place over 
three days.  The Avengers (including Thor) try to breach Khan's wall.  We've 
theorized on the Kang war list that Thor's appearances here and in A3 #56-FB 
take place after Odin's death, as Thor is dropping by Avengers' Mansion to 
resign his commission.  That means they have to take place next to each other, 
and given Thor's absence from the active part of XX #11-13, one would assume 
he'd left already for Asgard  so A3 #56-FB takes place BEFORE the XX arc.

the Order #1-6  Prof. X appears in #5-6 still seated, but Emma's presence 
indicates that it takes place AFTER she joined, which was after Cassandra's 
mind-switch, so this series must be AFTER Prof. X's switch back  during a 
time when his spine was healed but he still felt uncomfortable enough on his 
feet to stay seated.  (As in, before X #127, where we see him walking.)  
Thor is gone from the Avengers' roster by this point.

Black Panther v3 #41-47  Wolvie and Alpha Flight guest-star in #41-44  
Heather's pregnancy is mentioned as "coming along fine since you saw me 
last" (which was in W2 #173).  Iron Man and Black Panther, on good terms 
in "Order", piss each other off here fiercely, and Thor is widely known as 
"Lord of Asgard" by this point, meaning that it's after his appearances in 
A3 #56-FB and XX #11.

Uncanny X-Men #408-409  the X-Men mop up the Vanisher's drug operation.  At 
Archangel's press conference they ask him when Paris will be rebuilt, placing 
this before X #128, where the Eiffel Tower is back.

Deadpool v2 #67  Dazzler guest-stars, trying to kick-start her career.

New X-Men #127  a "mutant community" is starting to grow in Alphabet City.  
Prof. X is walking this issue, and perhaps Paris is rebuilding BTS?

X-Men Unlimited #36/1  Kitty at college.  I'm placing this issue here to 
give Paris more time to rebuild.

Avengers v3 #56  the Beast is audited by the Stark Foundation's bean-
counters.

Deadpool v2 #69  final issue  we see cameos of Wolvie and Captain America 
getting prank-called by DP  I believe he calls Siryn too, which would place 
this issue before X #128, where she's stationed in France.  Cap's appearance 
here should likely fall between A3 #56-57.

New X-Men #128-130  the rest of the X-Corporations open worldwide, and 
Prof. X and Jean travel to France to promote them.  Darkstar is killed by 
Weapon XII, a new iteration of the same "Weapon" programs that produced 
Wolverine.

Wolverine v2 #177-180  Wolverine visits the Vatican and Canada  this is 
likely what he's up to during X #128-130, but he has to be back by UX #410.

X-Men Unlimited #36/2, p.12  in the final page of the story (the rest 
placed just prior to ASM2 #36), Magneto's rescued waifs finally show up at 
the school to enroll.  (It has to be this far forward because the school is 
outed  X #116  and yet Prof. X is back in his own body  so post #126.)  
The arrival of these waifs, and a note from Magneto, possibly causes Prof. 
X to (a) recruit more students (UX #410), and (b) think about Magneto and 
visit Genosha (the upcoming X #132).

Chamber #1  Chamber at college, referenced in UX #410.  Cyclops' appearance 
in #1 is likely before UX #411.

Uncanny X-Men #410-412  Prof. X recruits a small, squidlike boy to join the 
team, the X-Men help the Juggernaut control Black Tom's newest mutation, and 
Havok is found alive and brain-dead in a convalescent home.  (His spirit, you 
see, still floating through the void ever since Mutant X #32).

There we have it  again.  For my lists of stories I've placed elsewhere, or 
stories I can't yet place, please see the end of my original posting.  They'll 
be typo-packed for your reading pleasure!

			*	*	*

Weapon X: Agent Zero
Posted by Andy Holcombe on September 01, 2002 at 17:45:55:
In Reply to: Re: X-MEN CONTINUITY LIST -- Maximum Security to present -- 
revised V2.0 (w/ fewer typos!)
posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2002 at 16:53:19:

While future issues could prove me wrong, I believe Agent Zero will turn out 
to be Maverick.  If true, this would place the opening of Weapon X: Agent Zero 
shortly after Sabretooth "recruits" him in Wolverine #166.

			*	*	*

Re: Weapon X: Agent Zero
Posted by Jeph! on September 02, 2002 at 00:19:18:
In Reply to: Weapon X: Agent Zero
posted by Andy Holcombe on September 01, 2002 at 17:45:55:

Yeah, I caught that too -- Frank Tieri isn't exactly Captain Subtle Plot 
Twist, is he?  Although I thought the sheer weirdness of having TWO characters 
whose faces you never see, Agent Zero and the Director, be protagonist and 
antagonist clearly wins the "weird comic-book head-fuck" award.

If it is Maverick, I agree that the opening sequence should be right after 
W2 #166 -- but I'm not sure about the rest of the book.  I'd have to read it 
again (I read it in-store, content to wait for the inevitable TPB).

A few things that cross my mind about its placement:

1)  Is Kyle smiling, happy, and talkative?  His mood determines how far back 
he lost his voice (which determines where the FB from his one-shot goes).

2)  Is the sequence with Copycat in the same time-frame as the hit on Wolvie?  
If so, we need to place it before the D2 #57-60 arc.

3)  Does Wolvie wear a modern-day, Morrison-era costume in the book?  If so, 
we need to put it after X #113.

Etc etc.  Give me one more read-through -- I may move the damn thing just on 
the supposition that it's Maverick.  Which it probably is.

Thanks for the tip-off.
	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Weapon X: Agent Zero
Posted by Andy Holcombe on September 02, 2002 at 08:25:47:
In Reply to: Re: Weapon X: Agent Zero
posted by Jeph! on September 02, 2002 at 00:19:18:

> 1)  Is Kyle smiling, happy, and talkative?

He doesn't appear pissed off at the world.  I really can't decide what mood 
he's in.

> 2)  Is the sequence with Copycat in the same time-frame as the hit on 
Wolvie?

No. Lots of room for her to die afterward.  Agent Zero's rebirth (however 
long that takes) in pages 2-11 are fairly continous.  This includes the scene 
with Wild Child, Copycat, Sauron, Kane, Mesmero, Sabretooth, Jackson, and the 
Director in the conference room (page eleven).  If necessary, you could insert 
breaks between pages three (with Sabretooth, Jackson, and the Director) and 
four and ten (with Jackson and the Director) and eleven.  Pages twelve and 
thirteen happen "over the next few weeks" and show Agent Zero on three "good" 
missions.  And then the rest of the book with Wolverine and the Director.

Note: For my page numbers, I'm counting the recap page as page one and am 
not counting the adds.

> 3)  Does Wolvie wear a modern-day, Morrison-era costume in the book?

He doesn't appear in the book in costume.  On the cover he's in the Morrison 
costume, though.

			*	*	*

Re: Weapon X: Agent Zero
Posted by Jeph! on September 02, 2002 at 12:00:47:
In Reply to: Re: Weapon X: Agent Zero
posted by Andy Holcombe on September 02, 2002 at 08:25:47:

> > 1)  Is Kyle smiling, happy, and talkative?

> He doesn't appear pissed off at the world.  I really can't decide what 
mood he's in.

Hm.  But he's not talking.  Cursed ambiguity!

> > 2)  Is the sequence with Copycat in the same time-frame as the hit on 
Wolvie?

> No. Lots of room for her to die afterward.  Agent Zero's rebirth (however 
long that takes) in pages 2-11 are fairly continous.  This includes the scene 
with Wild Child, Copycat, Sauron, Kane, Mesmero, Sabretooth, Jackson, and the 
Director in the conference room (page eleven).<p>Gotcha -- now I'm trying to 
figure out exactly when COPYCAT got involved with Weapon X.  I'm assuming this 
segment takes place after DP2 #56, where Copycat beats up Siryn, but before 
the "Agent of Weapon X" arc in DP2 #57-60...<p>> If necessary, you could 
insert breaks between pages three (with Sabretooth, Jackson, and the Director) 
and four and ten (with Jackson and the Director) and eleven.  Pages twelve and 
thirteen happen "over the next few weeks" and show Agent Zero on three "good" 
missions.  And then the rest of the book with Wolverine and the Director.

Cool, thanks.

> > 3)  Does Wolvie wear a modern-day, Morrison-era costume in the book?

> He doesn't appear in the book in costume.  On the cover he's in the Morrison 
costume, though.

Okay -- however, he has two eyes in the book!  That places it after W2 #169, 
at least.  So there IS a gap here -- possibly two, depending on when in the 
DP2 #57-60 arc Copycat was recruited to Weapon X.  I'm gonna have to buy me 
that trade paperback.

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Weapon X: Agent Zero
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 02, 2002 at 17:11:30:
In Reply to: Re: Weapon X: Agent Zero
posted by Jeph! on September 02, 2002 at 12:00:47:

> Hm.  But he's not talking.  Cursed ambiguity!

It's a non-speaking cameo.  It could go anywhere.

> Gotcha -- now I'm trying to figure out exactly when COPYCAT got involved 
with Weapon X.  

In Deadpool #58, the Director - admittedly an unreliable source - describes 
Copycat as the girl who was originally sent after Deadpool.  This is a clunky 
and awkward retcon of her appearances in the Palmiotti/Scalera run, but there 
you go.

Copycat first turned up as a supporting character in Deadpool, attempting to 
seduce him in various different guises, in Deadpool #49.  Evidently she joined 
Weapon X at some point prior to that issue.

This leaves two possibilities.  One, her appearance in Agent Zero precedes 
Deadpool #49.  Ugly.

Two, after walking out on Deadpool in issue #56, she returned to Weapon X and 
appeared in Agent Zero before leaving again and getting herself killed in 
issue #59.

			*	*	*

Re: X-MEN CONTINUITY LIST -- Maximum Security to present -- revised V2.0 (w/ 
fewer typos!)
Posted by Jason Doty on September 04, 2002 at 17:51:57:
In Reply to: Re: X-MEN CONTINUITY LIST -- Maximum Security to present -- 
revised V2.0 (w/ fewer typos!)
posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2002 at 16:53:19:

This is awsome. I was just curious if you have you have done X-Men lists from 
issue #1 to current, Your list is easier to follow then looking up individule 
characters.

			*	*	*

Re: X-MEN CONTINUITY LIST -- Maximum Security to present -- revised V2.0 (w/ 
fewer typos!)
Posted by Jeph! on September 04, 2002 at 18:44:28:
In Reply to: Re: X-MEN CONTINUITY LIST -- Maximum Security to present -- 
revised V2.0 (w/ fewer typos!)
posted by Jason Doty on September 04, 2002 at 17:51:57:

Sadly, no I haven't.  One day I hope to, though -- so stay tuned!  I'll likely 
do it in big chunks over time, and I'll definitely post anything I do on here.

Thanks for the praise, though!

			*	*	*

ASM2 36
Posted by French Thom on February 19, 2003 at 08:28:24:
In Reply to: Re: X-MEN CONTINUITY LIST -- Maximum Security to present -- 
revised V2.0 (w/ fewer typos!)
posted by Jason Doty on September 04, 2002 at 17:51:57:

I contest your choice of leaving this 9/11 issue in regular continuity.

As everybody knows, time doesn't pass the same way in MU than in our real 
continuity.

Marvel comics published in three or four years time will establish that 
current issues just happened one year ago (I'm sure Franklin Richards will 
have aged one year or so, and then be...let me guess...12?), so will you 
then retcon the 9/11 events to make them happen in 2006?

Thas is definitely not an option.

Moreover, Magneto's presence can not really be considered. Would a man about 
to declare war to humanity (and thus ready to make way more than 3000 victims) 
would really feel compassion? I don't think so. As this issue will obviously 
be retconned in a few years time, the best thing to do is to consider as an 
outside continuity homage, with no ties to the Marvel Universe.

French Thom

			*	*	*

Re: ASM2 36
Posted by Andy Holcombe on February 19, 2003 at 09:49:16:
In Reply to: ASM2 36
posted by French Thom on February 19, 2003 at 08:28:24:

> Moreover, Magneto's presence can not really be considered.

> Would a man about to declare war to humanity (and thus ready to make way 
more than 3000 victims) would really feel compassion?

> I don't think so.

But if mutants were killed (and quite likely there were some mutants who 
were victims of the attacks), he would feel compassion for them and try to 
help any mutant survivors.

			*	*	*

Re: ASM2 36
Posted by French Thom on February 20, 2003 at 09:41:19:
In Reply to: Re: ASM2 36
posted by Andy Holcombe on February 19, 2003 at 09:49:16:

And Dr. Doom crying? Come on!

This guy once sent the Baxter Building in outer space!

French Thom

			*	*	*

Re: ASM2 36
Posted by Jeph! on February 19, 2003 at 11:24:15:
In Reply to: ASM2 36
posted by French Thom on February 19, 2003 at 08:28:24:

I don't really understand your argument here, Thom.  Yes, issues published in 
2006 will likely refer to 9/11 as occuring "five years ago", and simultaneously 
refer to ASM2 #35 and 37 as occuring "one year ago".  It happens.

However, let me give you another example:

Marvel published comics during the VietNam war, over thirty years ago.  Those 
comics referenced the war -- Iron Man visited the troops in 'Nam, Namorita 
made anti-war protest signs.  Etc etc.

Current comics refer to the VietNam war as taking place thirty years ago -- 
and they simultaneously refer to the events in the books I mentioned as 
occuring ten years ago.

It's an identical problem, but it doesn't throw the VietNam references out 
of continuity.  It just poses a paradox that we essentially have to ignore.

Lately, Marvel has been subtly re-naming all the wars that its characters 
have fought in.  Charles Xavier, who once fought in the Korean War, has now 
been bumped up to having fought in the VietNam war (PRIOR to founding the 
X-Men, which occured in comics published BEFORE the VietNam war...)

You can do a similar thing with ASM2 #36.  It never outright STATED that it 
was Sept. 11th, 2001, nor that it was the World Trade Center that collapsed.  
I mean, it clearly was, but they never outright SAID it.

So, five years down the road, when Marvel references 9/11 as "five years ago" 
and the events of ASM2 #35-37 as "last year", you can just pretend that the 
events depicted in ASM2 #36 were a similar, FICTIONAL terrorist attack 
perpetrated ONLY in the MU.

Or, like the rest of us, you can shrug and read the comics and ignore the 
temporal glitches caused by a fictional world going at a slower pace forever 
trying to line up with the real world.

We've been over it and over it and over it on this board, discussing the 
topics you mention as well as others, and I'm pretty sure that we've decided 
that it's canon.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

X-MEN CONTINUITY LIST v.2.1 -- this weeks' comic additions (spoilers)
Posted by Jeph! on September 05, 2002 at 20:05:46:
In Reply to: My long-awaited X-MEN CONTINUITY LIST -- Maximum Sceurity to 
present!!
posted by Jeph! on August 31, 2002 at 14:42:08:

Just a quick update to my list, to add in Uncanny X-Men #412 and New X-Men 
#131...

...
New X-Men #128-130  the rest of the X-Corporations open worldwide, and 
Prof. X and Jean travel to France to promote them.  Darkstar is killed by 
Weapon XII, a new iteration of the same "Weapon" programs that produced 
Wolverine.

Wolverine v2 #177-180  Wolverine visits the Vatican and Canada  this is 
likely what he's up to during X #128-130, but he has to be back by X #131.

New X-Men #131 - the funeral of Darkstar.  Warren showes up here blue, so 
this is before the "Hope" arc where his skin is returned to pink pigmentation.  
Apparently Wolvie came straight from Madripoor to the funeral, but this 
doesn't appear to be a reference to any other comic -- just a throwaway 
reference to Logan's world-trotting ways.  If he DOES go to Madripoor soon, 
though, I'll be sure to slot it here.

X-Men Unlimited #36/2, p.12  in the final page of the story (the rest placed 
just prior to ASM2 #36), Magneto's rescued waifs finally show up at the school 
to enroll.  (It has to be this far forward because the school is outed  X 
#116  and yet Prof. X is back in his own body  so post #126.)  The arrival 
of these waifs, and a note from Magneto, possibly causes Prof. X to (a) 
recruit more students (UX #410), and (b) think about Magneto and visit 
Genosha (the upcoming X #132).

Chamber #1  Chamber at college, referenced in UX #410.  Cyclops' appearance 
in #1 is likely before UX #411.

Uncanny X-Men #410-412  Prof. X recruits a small, squidlike boy to join the 
team, the X-Men help the Juggernaut control Black Tom's newest mutation, and 
Havok is found alive and brain-dead in a convalescent home, and brought home 
by Scott.  Black Tom's evolving succubus powers somehow change Warren's 
complexion back from blue to pink.  The Juggernaut, his powers weakened, 
comes to stay at the mansion.

----

You'll note I didn't add "Wolverine: Netsuke" #1 -- I refuse to buy a $3.99 
22-page comic.  I'll wait for the series to wrap, read it in the store, and 
see how things fit from there.

Also, I should note that I'm not putting the "Agent X" series on the list -- 
in my mind, Deadpool never was an X-book, and now that we're not even sure 
who the main character of the series is, it's absolutely not an X-book.

And finally, I just managed to get my hands on the Wizard 1/2 issue of 
"Weapon X", and I'll be slipping it in here as soon as I figure some things 
out.  The Orphan guest-stars, for one.

Stay tuned ... riveting, isn't it?

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: X-MEN CONTINUITY LIST v.2.1 -- this weeks' comic additions (spoilers)
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 06, 2002 at 03:49:10:
In Reply to: X-MEN CONTINUITY LIST v.2.1 -- this weeks' comic additions 
(spoilers)
posted by Jeph! on September 05, 2002 at 20:05:46:

> You'll note I didn't add "Wolverine: Netsuke" #1 -- I refuse to buy a $3.99 
22-page comic.  I'll wait for the series to wrap, read it in the store, and 
see how things fit from there.

From the look of it, Wolverine: Netsuke will not be posing any serious 
chronology problems and could fit happily anywhere in the last few years.  
The only continuity reference in issue #1 is that Mariko is dead.
