DRAGON MAN...DRAGON OF THE MOON...MADDIE AND WILLIE DRAKE
Posted by Arthur Stein on September 04, 2002 at 15:42:56:

   new entries marked **

DRAGON MAN
FF 332
**FF 333
WOSM 61

DRAGON OF THE MOON
**DEF 138-FB (pg 14)
**DEF 138 (Pg 16-18)
**DEF 143
**DEF 151 (I consider the image on Pg 3/5 and pg 4/1 to be a manifestation of 
the Dragon. At very least this would be a BTS entry.)
DEF 152
DRSTR3 4

DRAKE, MADELINE BEATRICE "MADDY"
UX 290
**UX 308
UX 319

DRAKE, WILLIAM ROBERT "WILLIE"
UX 290
**UX 308
UX 319

			*	*	*

But Wait! Some Major Proposals! Another Kang War list!
Posted by Kevin  on September 04, 2002 at 21:36:52:

First, let me thank all of those Kang War Chronologists that have contributed 
so far...youve gone and inspired me to work on this list myself, and youve 
pointed out just how much fun the Marvel Universe can be just in trying to 
figure out how time passes...

Anyway, I wish to make some humble suggestions, or rather, Ive made some 
strategic switches which I hope will meet your approval.  Feel free to provide 
allterations and well debate it, but I feel this list is a helpful 
improvement.  So Jeph, Sean, Paul, Russ, Tom Brevoort, and others, let me 
know what you think!

By the way, I don't know how the formatting will look on here, (I've created 
this list on Microsoft Works), but it should do well enough...just bear with 
me, please.

Let me start by saying that every list so far has started with Sept. 11th.  I 
have come to feel this may be an error.  Most of the Kang War and surrounding 
storylines were already written way before when Sept. 11th happened, and the 
people at Marvel then decided to work Sept. 11th into their universe, as seen 
in Amazing Spiderman #36, and Cap. vol 4 #1.    When youre starting your 
list off with Sept. 11th, its like you are sculpting the events of the 
Marvel Universe around a real world event, when I believe the approach we 
should be taking is to work around the major events of the Marvel Universe, 
and work Sept. 11th into that universes calender.  

Therefore, I propose that Sept. 11th happens much later than what you guys 
have previously figured.  One reason you had Sept. 11th so early is because 
of Hawkeye not being in prison, and Kingpin not being blind.  Ive come up 
for remedies for these instances.  

The way I figured it, (and Im trying to reason like they may of had to at 
Marvel after Sept. 11th) we have to drop Sept. 11th into the MU somewhere.  
Why not after the Kang War starts, after Kang makes all these predictions 
about the terrible events that are about to be inflicted upon the Earth?  
After all, he predicts in Avengers #42:

1. The Russian villian the Presense launching his attack.
2. The events of The Ultron Imperative  
3. That Black Pyramid coming to Earth in Avengers #50.

Why not have him predict other major events that befall the MU, events that 
occur during the span of the Kang War such as:  

1. The Universe getting destroyed as seen in FF# 49.
2. Graviton lifting the cities of Earth as seen in T-bolts 56-58.
3. The Destruction of the Island Genosha, (which um, does occur after the 
Kang War starts, right?)
4. That Khan guys invasion over in Extreme X-men, (I dont follow this 
book).

And so, why not just add to that list: the terrible tragedy of Sept. 11th?

On previous lists, we have Cap going to train the Redeemers in Tbolts 50 to 
54 AFTER Sept. 11th, and AFTER the Kang War begins. We also have Cap going 
on vacation in CAP V.3 #49, also after the Kang War and Sept. 11th.  I say, 
why would Cap do that?  If a War of domination for the planet was going on, 
why would he go train some rookies and take a day off? And as mad as he was 
on Sept. 11th, a guy like Cap wouldnt be looking for a vacation anytime 
soon. The obvious answer is these Major events happen after Cap takes that 
mini vacation and after he begins training the Redeemers.  

So where do we place Sept. 11th? Hawkeyes in jail, and Kingpin is blind, 
remember? 

How about this:  I remember reading on this board months ago that since the 
first 20 issues of the current Daredevil series were published at such a 
slow rate, that the people at this board were operating on the perspective 
that those events happened many months ago.  If Kingpin isnt blind, then 
the events of Daredevil #15 havent happened yet.  That story came out in 
the Fall of 2000 guys, and was originally scheduled for Spring 2000 I 
believe).  My solution?  Kingpin is blind. He only appears in two panels of 
ASM #36, and though hes not wearing his, Im blind glasses, notice hes 
not looking at the wreckage. Hes looking off to the side, perhaps listening 
with his ears more than looking with his eyes.  

Also, on another DD note, you have the current story of Daredevils secret 
identity being revealed to the public happening AFTER the Kang War has come 
to a close.  I dont know about you, but I believe that AFTER the Kang War 
has ended, the Associated Press has much more important matters to talk about 
on the evening news than the secret identity of a little-known-outside-New 
York superhero.  The Evening News is probably more concerned with stories 
about how the nations of the Earth are rebuilding after Kangs few weeks of 
rule.  Thus, I place the current DD storyline AFTER Sept. 11th, (where we 
see a Blind Kingpin and DD helping at the WTC site) but BEFORE Kang conquers 
the Earth in Avengers #49-54.

So what about Hawkeye? Hes in prison right? Yeah, but there is one instance 
of his getting out of prison. The Ultron Imperative.  Okay, so the Avengers 
spring Hawkeye out of prison to go help out with Ultron. The next day as 
they come back, before they can ship Hawkeye back off to prison, Sept. 11th 
happens.  Hawkeye of course is allowed to help out at the WTC site along 
with the rest of the Avengers.  This also explains why the T-Bolts arent 
there at the WTC site:  theyve been disbanded.  If this happened between 
T-Bolts 49 and 50, why wouldnt Hawkeye be there with the T-Bolts? So, in 
my opinion, this places the events of The Ultron Imperative happening on 
Sept. 9th or 10th roughly.

Well, thats enough rambling, let me show you the actual timeline Ive come 
up with. Im sure its far from perfect, but any advice given is appreciated. 

Some abreviations youll need:
K.W.=Kang War
M.U.=Marvel Universe
M.S.=Maximum Security
CAP=Captain America
ASM=Amazing Spiderman
PPSM=Peter Parker Spiderman
FF=Fantastic Four
IM=Iron Man
DD=Daredevil

12 weeks, (roughly 3 months) before K.W.= Maximum Security ends

83 days before K.W. = Hulk #22-23. This story happens over the next 2 to 3 
days. The Grey Hulk still has temporary custody of the body as shown during 
Hulk #21, the M.S. crossover issue.

82 days before K.W. = Thor. #31 and 32.  Right after the end of the K.W., 
Thor rushes back to Earth to check on Hogun, who is in the hospital. Dan 
Jurgens provides a stumper in that events from M.S. to Odins Funeral in 
Thor #44, (where Thor takes the Throne of Asgard) run seemlessly together. 
Methinks Dan forgot to leave a space where Thor can go fight that whole K.W. 
thing.  I know Paul already created this theory, but Ill restate it here:  
There is a one page epilogue at the end of Thor #32. Thor is transporting 
Beta Ray Bill back to Earth, and theyre commenting on the battle against 
Malekith on Asgard in Thor #32.  But maybe...what if Thor finished that 
battle in #32, travelled back to Earth, joined the Avengers, fought the Kang 
War, and THEN went back to Asgard to check on stuff there, and THEN that one 
page epilogue occurs.  Thus, Odin would still be in Odin-sleep mode during 
the Kang War, (explaining why the Asgardians dont seem to care that Earth 
has been conquered by Kang).  And Beta Ray Bill spent all that time on 
Asgard, thus explaining why he didnt help Earth during the K.W. The snow on 
the ground in Thor #33-35 is of the natural winter sort months later then, 
and not left over from the Cask of Ancient Winters.

80 days before K.W.=T-Bolts #46-47. Hawkeye and the gang are on Titan.

79 days before K.W.=Hulk #24-25. Happens on one, maybe 2 days.  The way I 
figure it, the snow on the ground in issue #24 is leftover from the Cask of 
Ancient Winters afflicting Earth.  At the end of Hulk #25, Bruce changes 
into the Savage version of the Hulk and walks off.  This suggests that Bruce 
has given termporary custody of his body over to the Savage Hulk.  Good, 
since this is the version seen over the next few months in the Defenders, (do 
any of the other Hulks make an appearance in Defenders)?

77 days-11 weeks before K.W.=Avengers #36-37 happens in one day, just days 
after M.S. ends.

76 days before K.W.=ASM #25.  The Green Goblin captures Spidey.

74 days before K.W.=CAP #37-38. Nick Fury appears in issue 37, he says hes 
going to go searching for David Ferrari, (hes Caps girlfriends brother).

73 days before K.W.=T-Bolts 48-49.  It might have taken this long for the 
T-Bolts to get back to Earth.

71 days before K.W.=T-Bolts 50 and T-Bolts 50, Epilogue 1

70 days-10 weeks before K.W.=CAP # 39. Cap says this issue happens days after 
Cap #38.  

Also, T-Bolts #50, epilogue 2 happens on this day.

69 days before K.W.=PPSM#25.  Judging by the growth on Peter Parkers chin, 
Id say he escapes the Goblins torture house here.

68 days before K.W.=PPSM#26. This issue doesnt actually have Peter Parker 
in it in the present, so why not just put it here?

64 days before K.W.=Hulk #26. The story happens in one night. The Savage Hulk 
is still wandering the land. The conversation between Doc Samson and his 
girlfriend indicate that Banner has been missing for some time.

63 days=9 weeks before K.W.=Also, I dont have issues 26-28 of ASM, so I dont 
know where they go, but maybe here?

61 days before K.W.= Defenders Vol.2 1-4, happen over the next few days.  
Savage Hulk is with this group for the next few weeks.  Take note, I dont 
have any of the Defenders issues, so Im just going by what others have said 
on this message board.

60 days before K.W.=PPSM #27-28. Peter has an online chat with Mendel 
Stromm.

51 days before K.W.=Defenders Vol.2 #5-7 occur over the next couple of days.  
Banner appears, still aflicted with ALS.  Namorita appears captured, but 
since this is now BEFORE her appearance in FF, shes okay to stay captured 
from Defenders #2  (she does get release during this storyline, right?)

49 days-7 weeks before K.W.= CAP #40. The trial happens 2 to 3 weeks after 
CAP makes the arrest of the A.I.M. leader at the end of CAP #39.  I say 
this because trials dont happen the day after the arrest.

47 days before K.W.= Defenders Vol.2 #8-10. A non-pregnant Sue makes an 
appearance because shes not pregnant yet.  This story supposedly occurs 
days after Defenders #7. Is Banner cured of ALS by this point? If so, we may 
indeed have to move these middle Defenders issues down a little on the time 
line.

45 days before K.W.= ASM29, PPSM 29, ASM annual 2001- Mary Jane returns. She 
and Peter seperate.

44 days before K.W.=Black Panther #34 and #35.  Appearance by the Cursed 
Defenders.

40 days before K.W.=Lets assume Banner returns to Doc Samsons care by this 
point, just in time to take part in Avengers #38-40 a few days later.

38 days before K.W.=Hulk #27-28 happens one night during a dream, but the 
events of the dream seem to have been building up in Banners subconsious 
over the last few months/weeks as the Savage Hulk/Grey Hulk/ Prof. Hulk/ 
Snake Hulk and Banner try to claim supremacy over Banners body.  Notice 
that Grey Hulk and Prof. Hulk are pretty well gone or beaten.  That reflects 
those two personalities not showing up in the Defenders title.  Banner wins 
supremacy, and the Snake Hulk is imprisoned, reflecting why the Snake Hulk 
personality doesnt appear in Avengers #40, while all the other Hulk 
personalities make a quick cameo.  By the way, these two issues are really 
great reads. Go get them, youll love them!

37 days before K.W.=PPSM #30-32. Happens over a couple of days. Spidey vs. 
Fusion.

Also on this date: X-men #111.  Isnt this where Quicksilver says hes going 
back to the Avengers?

35 days-5 weeks before K.W.=Avengers #38-40.  The Wasp says in #38 that its 
been 6 weeks since the events of Avengers #37. Notice Thor rejoins the 
Avenger on this date. Also take note that Ive placed roughly a month between 
this event and the start of the K.W.  Thats to give all these extra events 
like Infinity Abyss, the last few issues of CAP vol. 3, etc. a little extra 
time to wrap up before Kang conquers the world.

*Avengers: Celestial Quest and Infinity Abyss happen sometime during this 
gap.  I dont have these issues, but I heard someone say that Spidey in 
Infinity Abyss makes a reference to being seperated from his wife at this 
point.

33 days before K.W. CAP #41-44. These issues happen over the next 3 to 6 days 
roughly, depending on how long it takes CAP to go to a former U.S.S.R. state, 
rescue Nick Fury, and get back in time to be ambushed by the Taskmaster. 
Taskmaster makes reference to the events of Avengers #38.

32 days before K.W. =FF#38-45. These stories happen in rapid succession of 
one another over the course of a few days. Notice Thor has rejoined the 
Avengers as seen in FF #39. By the way, I dont have a copy of FF#37. Is this 
the M.S. crossover issue? If not, when does it occur?

Also on this date: PPSM #33. The anniversary of Uncle Bens death.

31 days before K.W.=Hulk #29. Happens in one night.  

28 days-4 weeks before K.W.=CAP #45-48. Happens over the course of 1 week.

27 days before K.W.= PPSM#34.  Spidey vs. Mutant Monk with Killer Eyeballs. 
Wierd but good story. 

21 days-3 weeks before K.W.=IM #41. This issue happens a few short weeks 
before IM#42.

18 days before K.W.=CAP #49.  Happens on one day. CAPs on vacation. Its 
important that we place this here, since CAP wouldnt feel like taking a 
vacation after the K.W. starts.

16 days before K.W.=Hulk #30-32- Banner cured of ALS over the next couple of 
days. She-Hulk and the FF make a cameo.  She-Hulks not globetrotting because 
this is BEFORE the K.W.

14 days-2 weeks before K.W.=T-Bolts #50 Epilogue 3= Like Thors title, the 
writer here has a way of lumping all the action in the book together, (not 
that I dont enjoy Fabians work greatly though).  Anyway, Hawkeye only 
spends 2 to 3 weeks in Seagate Prison.  He has to get out momentarily for 
The Ultron Imperative, (which happens after the Kang War begins in Avengers 
#41), and hes also out for Sept. 11th.  My suggestion:  In epilogue 3  of 
T-Bolts #50, we see CAP placed in charge of the Redeemers, and in epilogue 
4, (two days later after epilogue 3) we see Songbird, Mach-2, and Meteorite 
get pardons.  Which brings me to why I place these two epilogoes so far down 
the timeline.

Those presidential pardons dont get handed out overnight.  It probably took 
weeks to come down from above with Presidential approval.  So why not place 
these epilogues weeks after the action of T-Bolts #50.  Likewise, Hawkeye 
didnt just get arrested and was shipped off to Seagate prison immediately 
at the end of T-Bolts #50 immediately.  Even a guilty plea requires a 
courtroom process that can take weeks.  Thus, though hes probably in a 
Washington D.C. holding cell during trial, he wasnt shipped to Seagate for 
his 2 to 3 weeks of prison time till later.

12 days before K.W.=T-Bolts #50 epilogue 4=As mentioned above, the T-Bolts 
recieve their pardon on this date.  

7 days-1 week before K.W.=T-Bolts #51-52. The events happen over the next day 
or so, as Cap and the Redeemers take a quick trip to Latveria. Also, 
Meteorite/Moonstone becomes the ally of Graviton

1 day before the K.W.=FF Annual 2001=Galactus head falls into Times Square.

Day 1 of Kang War:  Avengers #41-43, Avengers Annual 2001, A #44.  The Kang 
War begins.  Kang destroys the U.N. Building.  Over the next 2 to 3 days, the 
Avengers have to put down revolts by the Atlanteans and the Deviants.  The 
events of the Avengers Annual 2001 occur during or right before A #44.  Hank 
Pym settles on being Yellowjacket.  CAP leaves the Redeemers temporarily to 
go on what he thinks is a routine Avengers mission in Russia.  Tony Stark is 
about to go into hiding, as seen in IM #42-45.  He hasnt shaved his goatee 
yet though.  

Also on this date:  FF#46-49.  These events may happen over a few days.  Sue 
Richards becomes pregnant at the end of #49.

Also on this date:  IM #42.  The events of this issue begin on the same day 
as the K.W., (or is it after? I admit it, I dont have this run of issues of 
IM either.  Can someone clarify these?)

Day 8 of K.W.=IM#Annual 2001.  The two stories in this annual occur over the 
next few days.

Also, on this date: Defenders #11.  Namor wins back Atlantis shortly after 
Attumas defeat in Avengers.

Day 11 of K.W.=DD#26.  Matt Murdock finishes up a trial, (a trial thats 
taken several months from the language used.  Thus, Id place the trial in 
DD#20-25 as before the M.S. crossover).  On the way out of the courthouse, 
Murdock is attacked by Nitro.

Day 12 of K.W.= The Ultron Imperative.  This one-shots events happen over 
the course of 1 to 2 days.  Hank has settled into his Yellow jacket costume, 
as seen here.  Hawkeye temporarily released from Prison.

Day 14 of K.W.=Sept. 11th happens as seen in CAP vol.4 #1 and ASM #36.  
Hawkeye gets shipped back to prison a couple of days later.

Day 18 of K.W.=DD#26.  The Kingpin is attacked, (stabbed, ala Julius Ceasar 
style) by his own inner circle.  He ends up in a coma.

Day 20 of K.W.=T-Bolts: Life Sentences.  Hawkeye strikes a deal with Mentallo 
to get out of prison.  If this event had been placed before the Ultron 
Imperative, Im sure Hawkeye would have found a way to tell CAP, Hey, Im 
being blackmailed by Mentallo!

Also on this date, DD#29.  Vanessa Fisk gets word by this date that her 
husband is dead or in a coma. She rushes back to America.  Over the next 
couple of days, she takes control of the Kingpins forces and has the men 
responsible for her husbands condition killed.

Day 25 of K.W.=DD#32-35. Daredevils secret identity gets blown to the 
press.  Its a major story for the next few days.  Mr. Hyde attacks Murdocks 
house, perhaps on day 28 of the K.W.  Notice that Daredevil is in the sky 
during Gravitons attack in T-Bolts.  Maybe this happened right after his 
fight with Mr. Hyde, later that same evening. 

Day 26 of K.W.=T-Bolts #53.  Kang is watching Earth, waiting to strike.  CAP, 
still in grief of 9/11, goes back to the Redeemers to get ready to basically 
give them over to Citizen V.  This day would happen in real life after 
President Bushs speech on Sept. 20th.  Maybe CAP is handing over the 
Redeemers to get ready to go fight Terrorsim, (unfortunately for him, the 
Kang War escalates).  The T-Bolt Charcoal kills his father.

Day 28 of K.W.=T-Bolts #54-59.  This happens over 1 day and night.  CAP hands 
the Redeemers over to Citizen V.  Graviton lifts the major cities of Earth 
into the sky, along with Earths heroes.  Hawkeye escapes from prison.  By 
the way, the couple of weeks in prison Hawkeye is referring to in T-Bolts 
#54 is the couple of weeks hes been BACK IN PRISON since the Ultron 
Imperative ended.  Also, the T-Bolts get banished to Counter Earth at the 
end of #58, and this explains why theyre not around to fight Kang.

Day 30 of the K.W.=Avengers #45-49. This begins the final stage of the Kang 
War. These issues happen over the course of roughly 4-5 days.

Day 34 of the K.W.=Avengers #49. Kang destroys Washington D.C. on this date.

Day 48 of the K.W.=Avengers #51.  Kang has ruled for 2 weeks by this time.  
Wanda and Simon are in the death camp.  There is much talk of the 
resistance forces gathering.

Day 51 of the K.W.=Avengers #50.  The solo story featuring CAP and other 
Avengers on board the Black Pyramid.  They learn theyve been there for 
weeks.

Day 52 of the K.W.=Avengers #52-54.  This begins the final battle of the 
K.W. over the next couple of days.  In the end, Kang is beaten, and his 
forces routed.  The President comes out of hiding and immediately tries to 
get Americans to go back about their business like nothing happened, (in 
an effort to restore order to the Marvel Universe).

Day 1 after the K.W.=Avengers #54. 1 day after his defeat, Kang is rescued 
from prison by his son Marcus.  In return, Kang kills Marcus.  This event 
may occur a few days later. Im unsure how much time Kang actually spent in 
prison after his defeat.

Day 2 after the K.W.=DD# 35, (second half of story).  Matt Murdock returns 
from Japan. es spent time in hiding during the K.W., reevaluating his life.  
Its been 28 days since he fought Mr. Hyde with Spidey. He tells Ben Urick 
hes having a press conference tomorrow. 

Day 3 after the K.W.=DD#35, (second half of story), DD#36, (first half of 
story).  Matt Murdock holds a press conference.  Tells the press hes not 
DD.  Yeah, I know I said above that the Press wouldnt be interested after 
the K.W., but Ive had to rethink this a bit, (thanks to Bendis putting so 
many gaps in his story!)  I believe the press was thinking something along 
these lines:  

Hey, that Murdock guy wants a press conference!
Now?  He was news BEFORE Kang conquered Earth.
Yeah, but he just got back from Japan supposedly.
Hey, what if that was a cover, so he could go fight in the Resistance as 
Daredevil?
Yeah!  And maybe hes going to announce he is DD today, and tell us how he 
fought against Kang!  And we need stories of heroes in these troubled 
times...

Or something like that...

Day 10 after K.W.=Avengers #55. The White House is being quickly rebuilt.  A 
memorial at Washington D.C. is drawing thousands of mourners.  I must admit, 
I cant find this issue tonight, (its around here somewhere).  So how many 
days after Kangs defeat did this actually happen?

Day 12 after K.W.=Defenders #12.  The Defenders become the Order.  The 
Order #1-6 happens after Kangs defeat, according to Kurt Busiek I believe.

Day 21 after K.W.=DD#36, (second half of story).  3 weeks have passed since 
Murdocks press conference.  Murdock is suing the Daily Globe.  Black Widow 
pays Murdock a visit.

Sorry, this is as far as I got, but I figured, for a first draft, why not 
post it and discuss?

QUESTIONS:  (And Im sure well all have many as we discuss this)...

Should IM #46-48 happen during or after the K.W.?  I dont have those issues.

Of course, I havent really place any X-books in this list.  Any ideas on how 
to merge lists?

Perhaps the real life War on Terror in Afganistan begins shortly after the 
K.W ends, maybe 2 or 3 weeks later?  Did CAP ever make it to Kandahar, as 
mentioned in CAP vol. 4 #1?  As for why Bush would start a War on Terror 
after having just gone through the a global war...perhaps he wants that 
patriotic spirit to keep up?  Hes afraid that the country will pause for a 
minute to wonder where he was during the Kang War, so he distracts the nation? 
(sorry Bush fans).  Perhaps hes just fulfilling his vow he gave on Sept. 
20th, to fight terrorists.

The Bruce Jones issues of Hulk definently occur after the K.W. right? But do 
they occur before, after, or during The Order?

You may see that I never did put CAP#50 or IM #50. Thats because Christmas 
is probably still a few weeks away going by this calander I created, and Im 
not that far yet. And furthermore, Im still unsure of where to place the 
second half of CAP #50, where CAP dies.  Im all for placing it right 
before Avengers #45, but I think further discussion might be warranted, 
(though I know its been discussed to death...but we still havent reached 
consensus)?

I realize their may be disagreements on Sept. 11th placement, but do you 
believe this placement Ive come up with is at least feasible?

			*	*	*

My first read-through/reply
Posted by Jeph! on September 05, 2002 at 00:15:56:
In Reply to: But Wait! Some Major Proposals! Another Kang War list!
posted by Kevin  on September 04, 2002 at 21:36:52:

Man alive  I can't get away from this.  Every time I think I can dust my 
hands of the project, another enterprising soul drops a new load of bricks 
on me!  ;)

Kevin  while I'm not sure I can mount a full reply right now (and, as I'm 
sure there are others far better suited to do so), let me give you some 
insight on what caused Sean and I to structure our lists the way we did.

First off  we didn't "start" with 9/11.  In fact, half the board doesn't 
even believe it's in-continuity!  We're trying to change their views on that, 
not by basing chronology ON it, but by structuring the rest of the books in 
an order that makes sense  THEN pointing out a slot for 9/11 to fall in.  
The placement of the ASM and Cap 9/11 issues came LAST  that way, if it's 
decided they're non-canon after all, pulling that one "brick" out of our 
"wall" won't affect the structure as a whole.

However, here's what causes me to place ASM2 #36 so blasted early in the 
lists

Magneto appears, alive and well, and standing up.  In a storyline beginning 
in X #111 (and ending in X #113, with no gaps), Magneto's spine is injured 
and he is crippled.  In X #115, still crippled, he is killed when Genosha 
blows up.  He hasn't been seen since (although, knowing Marvel, he'll likely 
be back  but not for a LONG time).

So, from X #113-115, he was crippled  he never healed.  Therefore, his 
appearance has to take place before X #111, as he is standing.

Now, according to a newscast in X #111, Quicksilver was found "a few weeks 
prior" on a Russian fishing vessel, injured and mindwiped  thrown out of 
Genosha by Magneto.  The newscast states that Quicksilver will soon recover 
fully, and plans to rejoin the Avengers.  And, in A3 #38, he does so.

Therefore, the Spidey 9/11 issue also has to take place before Avengers v3 
#38.  This places it definitively BEFORE the Kang War.

Many other things in the issue, by the way, back this up:  the Scarlet Witch 
is in her bangly gypsy outfit, which she ditches in A3 #38.  Storm is present, 
and her X-Treme Team of X-Men splits off from the regular team shortly before 
X #111.  Cyclops is present  he rejoins the X-Men shortly before X #111.  
The Kingpin is not blind.

We didn't place the 9/11 tragedy at the beginning of the list arbitrarily  
given Magneto's involvement, it's the only plausible scenario, and ALL of the 
supporting evidence backs us up.

And as for Cap not wanting to take a vaction after 9/11?  Well, according to 
our placement, the tragedy occurs before Cap #37  I think by #49, he's had 
enough time to relax about the disaster and take a personal day.  It's been 
twelve issues, for Pete's sake.

----

Other things to think about, as you continue:  Namorita was a prisoner of 
Attuma from D2 #5 (at least) to #11.  You, however, have her appearances in 
FF3 #42-49 occuring during this time-frame.  And if you try to move D2 #11 
back to BEFORE FF3 #42, let me warn you  FF3 #46 and A3 #41 are concurrent, 
based on the mention of the UN's destruction  and Attuma has control of 
Atlantis in A3 #42-43, which are now proven to be after FF3 #46.  Therefore, 
you CAN'T move D2 #11 back before FF3 #42.  So the only solution is that all 
of Nita's appearances in FF3 #42-49 take place BEFORE she was captured.

----

Also, you ask if IM3 #46-48 should occur during or after the Kang War?  The 
answer is, neither  they have to happen BEFORE.  In those issues, Iron Man 
is in his "transitional" armor  what I like to call his Ugly Armor.  And, 
in the Kang War, he's clearly seen in his Mike Grell/Mike Ryan suit of armor 
(seen in A3 #52), which post-dates the Ugly suit.

----

Also, for "T-Bolts: Life Sentences", you say: " If this event had been placed 
before the Ultron Imperative, Im sure Hawkeye would have found a way to tell 
CAP, "Hey, Im being blackmailed by Mentallo!"  However, it is revealed in 
later issues that Hawkeye was pulling a double-bluff on Mentallo  he WANTED 
Mentallo to add him to the breakout group, because he was working undercover 
on SHIELD's behalf to stop Mentallo's plan.  Telling Cap about his situation 
would only jeapordize any chance he had of getting the dirt on Mentallo's 
scheme.  So this, by itself, isn't an effective reason to place TB:LS after 
A:UI.

----

That's all I have to comment on for my first read-through.  But I've come to 
a conclusion:

I'm going to make a list, and post it on here, of all these books we're 
debating.  And I'm going to group chronological placements into categories:  
Mandatory (this issue HAS TO come after this one, because of this proof), 
Suggested (this issue OUGHT To come after this one, because of these 
inferences), and Arbitrary (this issue could go anywhere in between here 
and here  so I stuck it there).

Sean and I took all these comics and stuck them in many many proposed orders.  
We worked on many alternate theories.  We found new clues, knocked everything 
down, and started from scratch.  I'm not arrogant enough to say that OUR way 
is the ONLY way, but I do think that I now know enough about the books to be 
able to tell you the things that CAN'T be altered, and the things that can.  
And I really think creating such a list could be helpful  sort of the verbal 
equivalent of showing everyone the exact shape of the puzzle pieces we're 
trying to put together.

I think it would only help efforts like these  after all, for example, how 
many people would think to chronologize Wolverine v2 #173-180 against Citizen 
V vol. 2 #3-4?  Not many, that's who  and unless you knew that Alpha Flight 
was in both comics, you might make a mistake.

----

Other than that, Kevin, keep it up.  ;)

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: My first read-through/reply
Posted by Kevin  on September 05, 2002 at 12:17:07:
In Reply to: My first read-through/reply
posted by Jeph! on September 05, 2002 at 00:15:56:

Well, I knew I'd get shot down, just not so fast. ;)  Just kidding. What I 
mean is I expected you guys to provide an answer for all my points of 
contention, but you did it so well...but still, I'll debate you on some 
points.

I look forward to your idea of seperating the "problem comics" into discussion 
threads: that will help out immensly, I'd say.

> Man alive  I can't get away from this.  Every time I think I can dust my 
hands of the project, another enterprising soul drops a new load of bricks on 
me!  ;)

That's what I'm here for: Would you like your bricks to be small, medium, 
Large, or Supersized?

> Kevin  while I'm not sure I can mount a full reply right now (and, as I'm 
sure there are others far better suited to do so), let me give you some 
insight on what caused Sean and I to structure our lists the way we did.

> First off  we didn't "start" with 9/11.  In fact, half the board doesn't 
even believe it's in-continuity!  We're trying to change their views on that, 
not by basing chronology ON it, but by structuring the rest of the books in 
an order that makes sense  THEN pointing out a slot for 9/11 to fall in.  
The placement of the ASM and Cap 9/11 issues came LAST  that way, if it's 
decided they're non-canon after all, pulling that one "brick" out of our 
"wall" won't affect the structure as a whole.

What you just described is what I tried to do to: find a slot to put it in.  

> However, here's what causes me to place ASM2 #36 so blasted early in the 
lists

> Magneto appears, alive and well, and standing up.  In a storyline beginning 
in X #111 (and ending in X #113, with no gaps), Magneto's spine is injured 
and he is crippled.  In X #115, still crippled, he is killed when Genosha 
blows up.  He hasn't been seen since (although, knowing Marvel, he'll likely 
be back  but not for a LONG time).

> So, from X #113-115, he was crippled  he never healed.  Therefore, his 
appearance has to take place before X #111, as he is standing.

> Now, according to a newscast in X #111, Quicksilver was found "a few weeks 
prior" on a Russian fishing vessel, injured and mindwiped  thrown out of 
Genosha by Magneto.  The newscast states that Quicksilver will soon recover 
fully, and plans to rejoin the Avengers.  And, in A3 #38, he does so.

> Therefore, the Spidey 9/11 issue also has to take place before Avengers v3 
#38.  This places it definitively BEFORE the Kang War.

Okay, you've got a point there.  But what if Magneto was just hovering in the 
air by way of his magnetic powers in ASM #36. We don't see his feet I believe, 
(I don't have the issue in front of me).  Or...let me guess...he's lost his 
powers again before he "dies" in the destruction of Genosha.  This is what I 
get for not following the X-men books more closely.

On a quick side note...why didn't Xavier ever float himself upright...he's a 
telepath, right?  But he always seemed lost without that hoverwheelchair of 
his...and I believe he's walking now, right?

> Many other things in the issue, by the way, back this up:  the Scarlet 
Witch is in her bangly gypsy outfit, which she ditches in A3 #38.  Storm is 
present, and her X-Treme Team of X-Men splits off from the regular team 
shortly before X #111.  Cyclops is present  he rejoins the X-Men shortly 
before X #111.  The Kingpin is not blind.

Maybe the Scarlet Witch's other outfit was in the wash? Just kidding...

> We didn't place the 9/11 tragedy at the beginning of the list arbitrarily  
given Magneto's involvement, it's the only plausible scenario, and ALL of the 
supporting evidence backs us up.

> And as for Cap not wanting to take a vaction after 9/11?  Well, according 
to our placement, the tragedy occurs before Cap #37  I think by #49, he's 
had enough time to relax about the disaster and take a personal day.  It's 
been twelve issues, for Pete's sake.

Yes, it's been 12 issues, but those issues happen in somewhat rapid 
progression.  My thought was of CAP thinking to himself "After Sept. 11th, 
there's never going to be a thing called a vacation again".  On, (I believe 
it was Paul's list...possibly Sean's as well), we see CAP #49 happen right 
in the middle of the Kang War.  That just didn't seem right with a World 
conquerer on the loose.

> Other things to think about, as you continue:  Namorita was a prisoner of 
Attuma from D2 #5 (at least) to #11.  You, however, have her appearances in 
FF3 #42-49 occuring during this time-frame.  And if you try to move D2 #11 
back to BEFORE FF3 #42, let me warn you  FF3 #46 and A3 #41 are concurrent, 
based on the mention of the UN's destruction  and Attuma has control of 
Atlantis in A3 #42-43, which are now proven to be after FF3 #46.  Therefore, 
you CAN'T move D2 #11 back before FF3 #42.  So the only solution is that all 
of Nita's appearances in FF3 #42-49 take place BEFORE she was captured.

Okay, now I didn't know she wasn't released till Issue 11.  Thus, your 
"theory"...or was it someone else's theory?...that she escapes from Attuma 
in Defenders #2, only to be recaptured later...I guess something like that 
will have to work, right? 

> Also, you ask if IM3 #46-48 should occur during or after the Kang War?  
The answer is, neither  they have to happen BEFORE.  In those issues, Iron 
Man is in his "transitional" armor  what I like to call his Ugly Armor.  
And, in the Kang War, he's clearly seen in his Mike Grell/Mike Ryan suit of 
armor (seen in A3 #52), which post-dates the Ugly suit.

But Ultron Imperative happens DURING the K.W. because of specific mentions 
of Kang during the story, right? And since IM 46-48 is a sequel to Ultron 
Imperative, it has to occur during or after the Kang War,right?

> Also, for "T-Bolts: Life Sentences", you say: " If this event had been 
placed before the Ultron Imperative, Im sure Hawkeye would have found a way 
to tell CAP, "Hey, Im being blackmailed by Mentallo!"  However, it is 
revealed in later issues that Hawkeye was pulling a double-bluff on Mentallo  
he WANTED Mentallo to add him to the breakout group, because he was working 
undercover on SHIELD's behalf to stop Mentallo's plan.  Telling Cap about his 
situation would only jeapordize any chance he had of getting the dirt on 
Mentallo's scheme.  So this, by itself, isn't an effective reason to place 
TB:LS after A:UI.

Well, my main point here was that I wanted to keep TB:LS and T-Bolts 53 and 
54 together in length...

> That's all I have to comment on for my first read-through.  But I've come 
to a conclusion:

> I'm going to make a list, and post it on here, of all these books we're 
debating.  And I'm going to group chronological placements into categories:  
Mandatory (this issue HAS TO come after this one, because of this proof), 
Suggested (this issue OUGHT To come after this one, because of these 
inferences), and Arbitrary (this issue could go anywhere in between here and 
here  so I stuck it there).

> Sean and I took all these comics and stuck them in many many proposed 
orders.  We worked on many alternate theories.  We found new clues, knocked 
everything down, and started from scratch.  I'm not arrogant enough to say 
that OUR way is the ONLY way, but I do think that I now know enough about 
the books to be able to tell you the things that CAN'T be altered, and the 
things that can.  And I really think creating such a list could be helpful  
sort of the verbal equivalent of showing everyone the exact shape of the 
puzzle pieces we're trying to put together.

> I think it would only help efforts like these  after all, for example, 
how many people would think to chronologize Wolverine v2 #173-180 against 
Citizen V vol. 2 #3-4?  Not many, that's who  and unless you knew that Alpha 
Flight was in both comics, you might make a mistake.<

> Other than that, Kevin, keep it up.  ;)

> 	-Jeph!

Thanks for the thoughts! Let the debate continue!

			*	*	*

Xavier on foot
Posted by BobMM on September 05, 2002 at 15:34:43:
In Reply to: Re: My first read-through/reply
posted by Kevin  on September 05, 2002 at 12:17:07:

> On a quick side note...why didn't Xavier ever float himself upright...he's 
a telepath, right?  But he always seemed lost without that hoverwheelchair of 
his...and I believe he's walking now, right?

I can't intelligently discuss any of this Kang War stuff, but I can help with 
your side question.

Xavier is telepathic -- he reads minds. Jean Grey is both telepathic and 
telekenetic -- she can move things with her mind. I've no idea why Xavier 
is walking these days, but it's not an obvious outgrowth of his telepathic 
powers.

			*	*	*

Re: Xavier on foot
Posted by Kevin  on September 06, 2002 at 15:50:08:
In Reply to: Xavier on foot
posted by BobMM on September 05, 2002 at 15:34:43:

Thanks, I should have figured that out on my own...like I've said, I don't 
follow the X-books nearly as much as I probably should...and I forget stuff. 
Now...where am I?  :)

			*	*	*

Replies to Kevin and Sean...
Posted by Jeph! on September 05, 2002 at 19:48:53:
In Reply to: Re: My first read-through/reply
posted by Kevin  on September 05, 2002 at 12:17:07:

> Well, I knew I'd get shot down, just not so fast. ;)

Not shooting you down  those were warning shots, dammit!  Pull up!  You're 
too close!

> ...but still, I'll debate you on some points.

Your funeral.  ;)  Kidding  sorry.  But with Sean and I "debating" you on 
two fronts now, things may get out of hand soon.

> I look forward to your idea of seperating the "problem comics" into 
discussion threads: that will help out immensly, I'd say.

I'll get to work on it as soon as I can.

> Would you like your bricks to be small, medium, Large, or Supersized?

Like anyone on this board does anything halfway: supersized, please.

>> First off  we didn't "start" with 9/11. In fact, half the board doesn't 
even believe it's in-continuity! We're trying to change their views on that, 
not by basing chronology ON it, but by structuring the rest of the books in 
an order that makes sense  THEN pointing out a slot for 9/11 to fall in.

> What you just described is what I tried to do to: find a slot to put it in.

Right, I know  it just sounded to me like YOU were criticizing US, in your 
first post, for "starting" with 9/11, or building on/around it  relying too 
heavily on it to place other things  ahh, never mind.

>> However, here's what causes me to place ASM2 #36 so blasted early in the 
lists  Magneto appears  Therefore, the Spidey 9/11 issue  has to take place 
before [X-Men #111 and] Avengers v3 #38.

> Okay, you've got a point there. But what if Magneto was just hovering in 
the air by way of his magnetic powers in ASM #36. We don't see his feet I 
believe, (I don't have the issue in front of me). Or...let me guess...he's 
lost his powers again before he "dies" in the destruction of Genosha.

It's not so much that he loses his powers, so much that when we see him in 
X #115 he's in a wheelchair  you'd think that if he COULD float, he would  
if only just to maintain his pride.  From the brief shot of him we saw in X 
#115, I'd be very surprised if he could even leave Genosha on his own, much 
less get up out of his chair and levitate big I-beams.

> On a quick side note...why didn't Xavier ever float himself upright...he's 
a telepath, right? But he always seemed lost without that hoverwheelchair of 
his...and I believe he's walking now, right?

BobMM answered this one already  he's a telepath, not a telekinetic, so his 
mental powers are limited to mind-reading.  As for why he's walking now, the 
newest X-Man, Xorn, has healing powers, and he healed Xavier's shattered 
spine and legs in X #126.

>> Many other things in the issue, by the way, back this up: the Scarlet 
Witch is in her bangly gypsy outfit, which she ditches in A3 #38.

> Maybe the Scarlet Witch's other outfit was in the wash? Just kidding...

This is Tom Brevoort, isn't it?  ADMIT IT

> Yes, it's been 12 issues, but those issues happen in somewhat rapid 
progression. My thought was of CAP thinking to himself "After Sept. 11th, 
there's never going to be a thing called a vacation again".

Honestly, though, unless it's written in a comic, you can't do that  you 
can't base chronology on what YOU THINK Cap is feeling.  You need evidence 
from the comic itself to make such leaps.

> On, (I believe it was Paul's list...possibly Sean's as well), we see CAP 
#49 happen right in the middle of the Kang War. That just didn't seem right 
with a World conquerer on the loose.

At any given moment in the Marvel Universe there are several hundred 
would-be world conquerors on the loose, and you don't see Cap worrying about 
them.  Sure, Kang showed up in Avengers #41 and declared war, but he never 
DID anything about it until issue #46.  It's not like he was "on the loose" 
all that time  he was sitting up in his space station, biding his time, and 
the Avengers knew it  he was basically a background threat, just like HYdra 
or Ultimatum, or any other organization that currently has declared war on 
the world.

> [Namorita:]  Okay, now I didn't know she wasn't released till Issue 11. 
Thus, your "theory"...or was it someone else's theory?...that she escapes 
from Attuma in Defenders #2, only to be recaptured later...I guess something 
like that will have to work, right?

Yep  looks that way.  Believe me, Sean and I tried other things, and had to 
settle on it.

>>  Also, you ask if IM3 #46-48 should occur during or after the Kang War? 
The answer is, neither  they have to happen BEFORE.

> But Ultron Imperative happens DURING the K.W. because of specific mentions 
of Kang during the story, right? And since IM 46-48 is a sequel to Ultron 
Imperative, it has to occur during or after the Kang War,right?

Ah, I see  you're considering the "Kang War" to encompass Avengers #41-54, 
whereas Sean and I see it as two parts -- #41-44, where Kang's announcement 
of war causes uprising and chaos, and #45-54, the "Kang War" proper, where 
Kang and his forces actually wage physical war on Europe and the USA.

What I meant was, IM# #46-48 have to take place before the Kang War Proper.  
As you note, the bulk of the story has to take place after "Ultron 
Imperative", but before Avengers #45-46, where the Master of the World's 
walls shoot up and Kang unloads troops on Europe.

> [TB:LS:]  Well, my main point here was that I wanted to keep TB:LS and 
T-Bolts 53 and 54 together in length...

I think it's more important to keep TB:LS close to TB 51-52  they make 
explicit mention in those issues that Hawkeye's life is in grave danger every 
day that goes by in prison  the farther away from #52 you place TB:LS, the 
less believable it is that he's still alive and unharmed when Mentallo 
contacts him.

Let's see if there's anything in Sean's post I want to touch on

--------

> Geez! I leave the board for a week and all this comes in. (Side Note to 
Jeph: I won't comment on your X-list since the only thing I could talk about 
is X-Treme, and we've already gone over that.)

That's fine  I get the feeling Paul is preparing creative new ways to kick 
my ass on that one.  ;)

> Well, Kingpin's blindness is only part of the problem. He's also killed/
comatized three months prior of the current arc. That means that there needs 
to be a gap of at least around 90 days between ASM #36 and the main storyline 
of DD #26.

Hmm  that's right.  He wasn't BLINDED in #26, he was put into a COMA  and 
that there is prrof positive that ASM2 #36 happens beforehand.  But, wait 
now  when was he BLINDED?  Because, we DO see his eyes in the 9/11 issue.  
And just like everyone else on the page, he's staring vaguely upwards.  He 
COULD be staring blindly, but then what's everyone ELSE looking at?

If the "Kingpin is blinded" story arc HAS to take place before the 9/11 
issue, I could be convinced that he is in fact blind in this issue, staring 
away at nothing while he listens to the cries of the crowd  but, for me, 
it's not the ideal solution.

Although, if we say the Kingpin's blind on that page, can we say that Dr. 
Doom's tears are really sweat?  I think that's the one thing standing in the 
way of people seeing this book is in-continuity.  ;)

By the way, Kevin, lest you start to think that we're doing NOTHING but 
shoot you down, you DO make a good point in one regard here:  you point out 
that Nick Fury is missing-in-action from Cap #37-44.  Now, Sean and I have 
the 9/11 tragedy happening just before Avengers #38  and since references 
to that issue are made in Cap #44, we have to place the tragedy before the 
Cap #40-44 arc as well.

BUT, Nick Fury shows up in the Cap v4 #1-FB portion of the disaster, urging 
Cap to head to Kandahar and kick ass.  Therefore, if Fury's MIA from Cap 
#37-44, then the disaster has to come before them all

See, Kevin?  You've made an impact after all.  ;)

>> Why not have him predict other major events that befall the MU, events 
that occur during the span of the Kang War such as  the terrible tragedy of 
Sept. 11th?

> Well, he could've made those predicitions, but why? He knows that everyone 
thinks he could be blowing smoke, so why waste his time? He gave them enough 
examples that would occur with 100% certainty that he proves his point. 
Graviton surprised him entirely.

> I don't think what you're saying here is wrong, per se, just that we can't 
really use it in putting together a chronology.

Yeah .. I honestly didn't get this either.  I mean, Kang DIDN'T make those 
predictions.  It seems like, just like with Cap, you're trying to 
chronologize by what ELSE you THINK characters MIGHT have done.  The simple 
answer to the question "why not have Kang predict all this stuff" is because, 
well, HE DIDN'T.  Not out loud, at any rate.

> Can't argue about the vacation thing too much though. But that's placed 
mainly in deference to all the other issues around it. We know where Cap 
#45-48 go, based on Iron Man's armor. We've got a fair idea of the stories 
in #50 for the same reason. #49 has to preceed #50 (by story references in 
#50, not necessarily the fact the 49 is less than 50) so #49 gets placed a 
little awkwardly.

Ah.  Thank you.  Once again you're able to pare these things down to eloquent 
little summations.  You bastard.

> There were a couple of points in Defenders that expressly said it was the 
savage Hulk that was tied to the curse. It didn't matter what Hulk/Banner 
incarnation was in charge at the time, he always reverted to savage Hulk 
when he popped over into that title.

Yep  for example, in issue #2, Joe Fixit is at a bar shoting pool, when the 
curse cuts in and  blip  next thing you know, the savage Hulk is with his 
fellow Defenders.

> The MS crossover never actually gets to FF. Johnny does fight Super-Skrull 
in #37, but it's part of another running plot, unrelated to MS.

Ah.  I was actually just about to ask about this  Sean, I'm thinking about 
backtracking our list all the way to Maximum Security after all.  I've 
already done it for the X-Men, and it looks like Paul Bourcier's doing it 
too  whaddayasay?

Also IM #43 and #46 have appearances of Goliath, which I don't see placed 
anywhere, but must surely take place before Hank settles into his Yellowjacket 
costume.

>> Day 30 of the K.W.=Avengers #45-49. This begins the final stage of the 
Kang War. These issues happen over the course of roughly 4-5 days.

> So, no explanation for Cap's injuries in #45?

Well, he hadn't yet put in Cap #50  and he DID say he liked our explanation-
slash-injury link

>> Avengers #55. So how many days after Kangs defeat did this actually 
happen?

>I think the captions said 3 weeks.

Yep!

> As for why Bush would start a War on Terror after having just gone through 
the a  global war...

I'm fairly sure that we should avoid linking real-world events to MU events 
if at all possible.  Who's to say that Marvel-Universe-President-Bush-Junior 
does the exact same foreign policy moves as our guy?  Nobody, that's who, 
unless it's mentioned in a Marvel Comic  and as far as I know, the War on 
Terror hasn't been.

> Sorry, bit of off-topic rant there, but he really pisses me off. I don't 
think I've ever disagreed so consistently with one person on so many issues.

S'okay, I'm sure there are very many people who agree with you.  Me, for one.

>> The Bruce Jones issues of Hulk definently occur after the K.W. right? But 
do they occur before, after, or during "The Order"?

> It almost has to be after, by the ALS storyline that's touched on in 
Defenders.

Also by the fact that Bruce and the Hulk are bald from #34 onwards, and have 
hair up through the "Order" series.

Okay  off to work on the "Puzzle Pieces" list.  If you like, I'll post the 
next iteration of MY Kang War list with a "play-along" step-by-step of how I 
put it all together, as opposed to just a big lump of a list with no 
indications of how I arrived at my goals.

Keep on keepin' on, all (and FEAR Paul B.'s next posting  FEEEAR ITTTTT)

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Replies to Kevin and Sean...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 05, 2002 at 22:19:40:
In Reply to: Replies to Kevin and Sean...
posted by Jeph! on September 05, 2002 at 19:48:53:

>> Keep on keepin' on, all (and FEAR Paul B.'s next posting  FEEEAR ITTTTT)

It's coming...............;)

I'll restrain from commenting on the new contributions so as not to delay the 
rollout of the new calendar...starting with 9/11 (sorry) and ending with 
current issues of Thor and Uncanny a Marvel-year later, with all sorts of 
goodies thrown in between -- Maximum Security, the presidential election, the 
infamous Christmas (X-Men and Cap work; sorry, Tony!), the Kang War, the Khan 
War, the Graviton War, the Order War, the Hawkeye placement mess, the 
Namorita complications, nice weather, snowstorms, full moons, lucky 
clovers...oh, scratch that last one.

My biggest problem (at least before you all respond): Cyclops in ASM2 36!!!!

This weekend...beware.

Paul

			*	*	*

Anticipation
Posted by Jeph! on September 05, 2002 at 22:38:33:
In Reply to: Re: Replies to Kevin and Sean...
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 05, 2002 at 22:19:40:

> It's coming...............;)

I can't wait.  I just can't.

> My biggest problem (at least before you all respond): Cyclops in ASM2 36!!!!

I KNEW IT!  I knew you'd do that -- you flopped the order of 9/11 and 
Christmas, didn't you.  ADMIT IT!  The thought crossed my mind, too.  But, 
really, it's not that big a stretch:

X 107
Search for Cyclops
9/11
(lots of stuff)
UX 388-X 108 - November election
(stuff)
X 109 - Christmas.

I'd buy it.  But, before I buy it, I'm going to SHAKE MY FINGER AT YOU VERY 
HARSHLY.  You're going against a Marvel writer's express intent, here, you 
know...

::makes a frownie face::

> This weekend...beware.

Oh believe me, I am.

::shakes his finger some more::

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Replies to Kevin and Sean...
Posted by Kevin on September 06, 2002 at 11:59:11:
In Reply to: Replies to Kevin and Sean...
posted by Jeph! on September 05, 2002 at 19:48:53:

> >> First off  we didn't "start" with 9/11. In fact, half the board doesn't 
even believe it's in-continuity! We're trying to change their views on that, 
not by basing chronology ON it, but by structuring the rest of the books in 
an order that makes sense  THEN pointing out a slot for 9/11 to fall in.

> > What you just described is what I tried to do to: find a slot to put it 
in.

> Right, I know  it just sounded to me like YOU were criticizing US, in your 
first post, for "starting" with 9/11, or building on/around it  relying too 
heavily on it to place other things  ahh, never mind.

Your absolutly right. I sounded that way, but I didn't mean it that way. Let 
me explain my comments about your placement of 9/11. My concerns were raised 
when I saw what I percieved to be irregularities in CAP and DD's chronologies. 
I was thinking you placed it where you did because you thought it had a 
profound effect on the MU, (and though it did, I think it's safe to say the 
Kang War had a more profound effect) and thus you placed it early because you 
were thinking it was the first stepping stone in a long line of events, (such 
as the Kang War).  Foolish of me to presume, but that's my mind for you.  I 
apologize.  I should have realized that where you placed 9/11 may have been 
the actual best place chronologically speaking, (but I'll still debate you on 
that point):)

> >> However, here's what causes me to place ASM2 #36 so blasted early in the 
lists  Magneto appears  Therefore, the Spidey 9/11 issue  has to take place 
before [X-Men #111 and] Avengers v3 #38.

> > Okay, you've got a point there. But what if Magneto was just hovering in 
the air by way of his magnetic powers in ASM #36. We don't see his feet I 
believe, (I don't have the issue in front of me). Or...let me guess...he's 
lost his powers again before he "dies" in the destruction of Genosha.

> It's not so much that he loses his powers, so much that when we see him in 
X #115 he's in a wheelchair  you'd think that if he COULD float, he would  
if only just to maintain his pride.  From the brief shot of him we saw in X 
#115, I'd be very surprised if he could even leave Genosha on his own, much 
less get up out of his chair and levitate big I-beams.

Well, yeah, but in that one brief shot we see of him before Genosha gets 
wiped off the map, he's, I would dare to say, alone in his personal living 
quarters.  Where no one would see him.  On the streets of NY, he's trying to 
maintain his pride, and thus, not setting his feet on the ground...

Of course, you got me on the Scarlet Witch's costume. Still, I'd accept her 
outfit as being in the wash more so than I would Hank Pym's outfit being in 
the wash...though that debate is still going on as well.  And so what if 
Storm goes off to start the X-treme team?  Maybe she dropped by to help out 
on 9/11?  But then again, I don't read X-treme X-men, so what do I know?  
There's probably an answer for that one...

hmmm...other than Scarlet Witch's costume, given the odds, I think I could 
probably fight you on this tooth and nail forever!?! Just kidding of course.

> > On, (I believe it was Paul's list...possibly Sean's as well), we see CAP 
#49 happen right in the middle of the Kang War. That just didn't seem right 
with a World conquerer on the loose.

> At any given moment in the Marvel Universe there are several hundred would-
be world conquerors on the loose, and you don't see Cap worrying about them.  
Sure, Kang showed up in Avengers #41 and declared war, but he never DID 
anything about it until issue #46.  It's not like he was "on the loose" all 
that time  he was sitting up in his space station, biding his time, and the 
Avengers knew it  he was basically a background threat, just like HYdra or 
Ultimatum, or any other organization that currently has declared war on the 
world.

You got some points here...*grumble, grumble*

> >>  Also, you ask if IM3 #46-48 should occur during or after the Kang War? 
The answer is, neither  they have to happen BEFORE.

> > But Ultron Imperative happens DURING the K.W. because of specific mentions 
of Kang during the story, right? And since IM 46-48 is a sequel to Ultron 
Imperative, it has to occur during or after the Kang War,right?

> Ah, I see  you're considering the "Kang War" to encompass Avengers #41-54, 
whereas Sean and I see it as two parts -- #41-44, where Kang's announcement of 
war causes uprising and chaos, and #45-54, the "Kang War" proper, where Kang 
and his forces actually wage physical war on Europe and the USA.

> What I meant was, IM# #46-48 have to take place before the Kang War Proper.  
As you note, the bulk of the story has to take place after "Ultron Imperative", 
but before Avengers #45-46, where the Master of the World's walls shoot up and 
Kang unloads troops on Europe.

Your explanation has cleared that mess up for me. Thanks. And, yes, on my 
timeline, I counted the start of the K.W. as Avengers #41.  So how long does 
the, as you put it, Kang War 'proper' last?  I gave that particular period 
roughly 3 weeks as I recall.  

> > [TB:LS:]  Well, my main point here was that I wanted to keep TB:LS and 
T-Bolts 53 and 54 together in length...

> I think it's more important to keep TB:LS close to TB 51-52  they make 
explicit mention in those issues that Hawkeye's life is in grave danger every 
day that goes by in prison  the farther away from #52 you place TB:LS, the 
less believable it is that he's still alive and unharmed when Mentallo 
contacts him.

Well, I suppose it's perfectly fine to have TB:LS at that point.  But in TB 
#54, Hawkeye says he's been in Seagate for a couple of weeks.  I had to take 
that to mean that he been there a couple of weeks, "since he got back from 
the Ultron Imperative".  Had to do it that way considering the fact that I 
had to start CAP's training session with the Redeemers in TB #51 as before 
A#41.  

What do you think of my theory that a lot of time passes between the main 
story of TB #50, and epilogues 3 and 4 of that issue? And my theory that 
Hawkeye had a "minitrial" where he plead guilty, and THEN he was shipped off 
to Seagate, right around the time of TB #51, which, I of course place close 
to Sept. 11th.  Those pardons don't don't get handed out overnight.  Or did 
someone else already come up with a similar theory?

Speaking of T-Bolts, if, as some of you proclaim, 9/11 happens between T-Bolts 
49 and 50, then why aren't the T-Bolts at Ground Zero with Hawkeye? Why is he 
with the Avengers?  That's another reason why I reccomended 9/11 happened 
right after The Ultron Imperative 

> Let's see if there's anything in Sean's post I want to touch on

I myself will respond to Sean's comments later. I'm to busy right now! Thanks 
again!

			*	*	*

Quickie reply
Posted by Jeph! on September 06, 2002 at 13:12:42:
In Reply to: Re: Replies to Kevin and Sean...
posted by Kevin on September 06, 2002 at 11:59:11:

First free moment I get, I check this board.  What's wrong with me?

> Let me explain my comments about your placement of 9/11. My concerns were 
raised when I saw what I percieved to be irregularities in CAP and DD's 
chronologies ... I apologize.  I should have realized that where you placed 
9/11 may have been the actual best place chronologically speaking, (but I'll 
still debate you on that point):)

Eh, no need to apologize -- I wasn't insulted, I was just trying to explain 
the REAL reasons we did what we did.  Trust me, given the amount of crap Sean 
has shot me down on, I have no ego left to bruise.  ;)

> Well, yeah, but in that one brief shot we see of him before Genosha gets 
wiped off the map, he's, I would dare to say, alone in his personal living 
quarters.  Where no one would see him.  On the streets of NY, he's trying to 
maintain his pride, and thus, not setting his feet on the ground...

Here's the other thing -- Magneto, in those days, lives in GENOSHA -- an 
island off the coast of southern Africa.  Yes, he's got wonderful magnetic 
powers, but that's very far away from the USA.  As injured as he is, one 
would wonder why he'd make the trip.  Seriously -- after his war plans from 
X #111-113, he wouldn't be welcome in places like the UN.  And you'd think 
he has enough on his plate being the ruler of Genosha, that he wouldn't have 
free time to make oddball trips halfway around the world.  In my work, I've 
tried to keep Magneto's US sojourns as few as possible -- there was the one 
in Black Panther #28, where he met with other world leaders to avert war, and 
there was the one in XU #36/X #110, where he recruited troops -- and his 
brief return visit in X #111 to kidnap Prof. X.  To my mind, three is too 
many already -- I don't feel like tacking on another, especially given 
Magneto's wounded condition and unwelcome response that would arise if ASM2 
#36 were placed between X #113-115.

> And so what if Storm goes off to start the X-treme team?  Maybe she dropped 
by to help out on 9/11?  But then again, I don't read X-treme X-men, so what 
do I know?  There's probably an answer for that one...

The answer is that the team distanced themselves ON PURPOSE, to prevent Xavier 
from learning about their mission -- the Destiny Diary they had foresaw the 
Cassandra Nova situation, you see, and the team kept themselves isolated so 
Xavier wouldn't learn about their quest for the diaries.  It's bad enough that 
re-writes and confusion led to the Beast being returned to the "New" Team in 
#3, and then picked up AGAIN for the Savage Land miniseries ... and it's worse 
still that Storm was sighted at Cap's funeral (which I cleverly combined with 
the Beast's return, minimizing the X-Treme/New X-Men interaction from three 
instances to two) -- but it's not like the X-Treme Team was popping by the 
mansion every day to visit.

It's much nicer to think that she and the other X-Tremers were still THERE, 
rather than that they left and came back, risking blowing their all-important 
cover.

'Course, Paul Bourcier is about to tell us all that the 9/11 stuff all 
happened between X #107 and UX #388 anyway, making this argument moot...

> You got some points here...*grumble, grumble*

Eee!  Hey, thanks.

> yes, on my timeline, I counted the start of the K.W. as Avengers #41.  So 
how long does the, as you put it, Kang War 'proper' last?  I gave that 
particular period roughly 3 weeks as I recall.  

I gave it between 2-3 weeks.  My agenda, though, is to have it fit into the 
three-week gap between TB #63-65.

> But in TB #54, Hawkeye says he's been in Seagate for a couple of weeks.  I 
had to take that to mean that he been there a couple of weeks, "since he got 
back from the Ultron Imperative".

That works as well as any rationalization I've thought of.  Good job.  :)

> What do you think of my theory that a lot of time passes between the main 
story of TB #50, and epilogues 3 and 4 of that issue? ... Those pardons don't 
don't get handed out overnight.

If they're unofficial they probably do.  "Sign this and get out of my face."  
And due to Hawk's railroading, these are probably as unofficial as it gets.  
But, still, the idea that some time elapses between the main story and the 
epilogues could come in very handy -- I believe Paul Bourcier, for one, had 
tried to pull TB #51 back to link up with the end of #50, but with this 
theory, perhaps he can leave TB #51 where it was and push up the end of #50 
instead!

See, you make good points too.

> Speaking of T-Bolts, if, as some of you proclaim, 9/11 happens between 
T-Bolts 49 and 50, then why aren't the T-Bolts at Ground Zero with Hawkeye? 
Why is he with the Avengers?

Uh ... because they're wanted felons?  Because they're planning their CSA 
infiltration?  Because they were afraid they'd get blamed for it?  Baecause 
they didn't trust Nomad enough to either bring him OR leave him behind?

The "so where was THIS character?" logic generally doesn't work.  The answer 
is they're not there because the writer didn't want to put them there -- and 
if you really wanted to, you could imagine that they were helping behind-the-
scenes.  At the Pentagon, maybe.

"Where was Wonder Man during 9/11?  Hmmmmmmmmm?  His absence PROVES it must 
be during a time when he was out of commission..."

See what I'm saying?  Lack of proof of one thing does not equal positive proof 
of the opposite thing.

Okay -- that's all the spare time I gots.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Quickie reply
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 06, 2002 at 20:34:40:
In Reply to: Quickie reply
posted by Jeph! on September 06, 2002 at 13:12:42:

> > What do you think of my theory that a lot of time passes between the main 
story of TB #50, and epilogues 3 and 4 of that issue? ... Those pardons don't 
don't get handed out overnight.

> If they're unofficial they probably do.  "Sign this and get out of my face." 
And due to Hawk's railroading, these are probably as unofficial as it gets.  
But, still, the idea that some time elapses between the main story and the 
epilogues could come in very handy -- I believe Paul Bourcier, for one, had 
tried to pull TB #51 back to link up with the end of #50, but with this 
theory, perhaps he can leave TB #51 where it was and push up the end of #50 
instead!

BINGO!  That's exactly what I've done independently!  A time gap indeed must 
separate epilogs 3 and 4 in TB 50 from epilogs 1 and 2. Note that no time 
reference is made for epilog 3!  Congratulations for discovering that one!

Paul 

			*	*	*

Re: Quickie reply
Posted by Kevin on September 07, 2002 at 00:10:27:
In Reply to: Re: Quickie reply
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 06, 2002 at 20:34:40:

*takes a bow, and pats himself on the back*  I knew I'd come in handy...wait, 
you discovered the theory before I did.  Aw, crud!  Well, I'll still pat 
myself on the back...

			*	*	*

Re: Quickie reply
Posted by Kevin  on September 07, 2002 at 01:07:01:
In Reply to: Quickie reply
posted by Jeph! on September 06, 2002 at 13:12:42:

> Here's the other thing -- Magneto, in those days, lives in GENOSHA -- an 
island off the coast of southern Africa.  Yes, he's got wonderful magnetic 
powers, but that's very far away from the USA.  As injured as he is, one 
would wonder why he'd make the trip.  Seriously -- after his war plans from 
X #111-113, he wouldn't be welcome in places like the UN.  And you'd think 
he has enough on his plate being the ruler of Genosha, that he wouldn't have 
free time to make oddball trips halfway around the world.  In my work, I've 
tried to keep Magneto's US sojourns as few as possible -- there was the one 
in Black Panther #28, where he met with other world leaders to avert war, and 
there was the one in XU #36/X #110, where he recruited troops -- and his 
brief return visit in X #111 to kidnap Prof. X.  To my mind, three is too 
many already -- I don't feel like tacking on another, especially given 
Magneto's wounded condition and unwelcome response that would arise if ASM2 
#36 were placed between X #113-115.

Hmmm....I suppose your theories hold, but I would still maintain my theory is 
at least feasible...

*grumble, grumble*

> > And so what if Storm goes off to start the X-treme team?  Maybe she 
dropped by to help out on 9/11?  But then again, I don't read X-treme X-men, 
so what do I know?  There's probably an answer for that one...

> The answer is that the team distanced themselves ON PURPOSE, to prevent 
Xavier from learning about their mission -- the Destiny Diary they had foresaw 
the Cassandra Nova situation, you see, and the team kept themselves isolated 
so Xavier wouldn't learn about their qust for the diaries.  It's bad enough 
that re-writes and confusion led to the Beast being returned to the "New" 
Team in #3, and then picked up AGAIN for the Savage Land miniseries ... and 
it's worse still that Storm was sighted at Cap's funeral (which I cleverly 
combined with the Beast's return, minimizing the X-Treme/New X-Men interaction 
from three instances to two) -- but it's not like the X-Treme Team was popping 
by the mansion every day to visit.

> It's much nicer to think that she and the other X-Tremers were still THERE, 
rather than that they left and came back, risking blowing their all-important 
cover.

> 'Course, Paul Bourcier is about to tell us all that the 9/11 stuff all 
happened between X #107 and UX #388 anyway, making this argument moot...

Good explanation! It works for me.

> > But in TB #54, Hawkeye says he's been in Seagate for a couple of weeks.  
I had to take that to mean that he been there a couple of weeks, "since he 
got back from the Ultron Imperative".

> That works as well as any rationalization I've thought of.  Good job.  :)

*pats himself on the back*

> > What do you think of my theory that a lot of time passes between the main 
story of TB #50, and epilogues 3 and 4 of that issue? ... Those pardons don't 
don't get handed out overnight.

> If they're unofficial they probably do.  "Sign this and get out of my face." 
And due to Hawk's railroading, these are probably as unofficial as it gets.  
But, still, the idea that some time elapses between the main story and the 
epilogues could come in very handy -- I believe Paul Bourcier, for one, had 
tried to pull TB #51 back to link up with the end of #50, but with this 
theory, perhaps he can leave TB #51 where it was and push up the end of #50 
instead!

> See, you make good points too.

*more back patting...I'm starting to get a cramp in my wrist*

			*	*	*

Re: Replies to Kevin and Sean...
Posted by Jhaeman on September 06, 2002 at 13:14:33:
In Reply to: Replies to Kevin and Sean...
posted by Jeph! on September 05, 2002 at 19:48:53:

> Okay  off to work on the "Puzzle Pieces" list.  If you like, I'll post 
the next iteration of MY Kang War list with a "play-along" step-by-step of 
how I put it all together, as opposed to just a big lump of a list with no 
indications of how I arrived at my goals.

I think explanations of how a particular chronology was created is something 
all of us should probably include.  My thought is that, just as we were 
recently debating the freakin' Contest of Champions placement (a series 
which came out 18 years ago), someone may be questioning our current placement 
of books five or ten years from now--and having explanations in the archives 
will probably save a lot of confusion if memories have faltered over time as 
they often do.

			*	*	*

Re: Replies to Kevin and Sean...
Posted by Kevin  on September 07, 2002 at 01:23:59:
In Reply to: Replies to Kevin and Sean...
posted by Jeph! on September 05, 2002 at 19:48:53:

> > Well, Kingpin's blindness is only part of the problem. He's also killed/
comatized three months prior of the current arc. That means that there needs 
to be a gap of at least around 90 days between ASM #36 and the main storyline 
of DD #26.

> Hmm  that's right.  He wasn't BLINDED in #26, he was put into a COMA  and 
that there is prrof positive that ASM2 #36 happens beforehand.  But, wait 
now  when was he BLINDED?  Because, we DO see his eyes in the 9/11 issue.  
And just like everyone else on the page, he's staring vaguely upwards.  He 
COULD be staring blindly, but then what's everyone ELSE looking at?

> If the "Kingpin is blinded" story arc HAS to take place before the 9/11 
issue, I could be convinced that he is in fact blind in this issue, staring 
away at nothing while he listens to the cries of the crowd  but, for me, it's 
not the ideal solution.

> Although, if we say the Kingpin's blind on that page, can we say that Dr. 
Doom's tears are really sweat?  I think that's the one thing standing in the 
way of people seeing this book is in-continuity.  ;)

Kingpin is blinded in DD#15, the final act of a story arc encompassing DD9 to 
DD15.  This storyline happens in rapid succession over the course of a few 
weeks. Yes, weeks, but I doubt months.  This story arc was published over the 
course of the year 2000. That's 7 issues which took around, (if not more) 12 
months to publish. I maintain, (as have others) that since the first 20 issues 
of DD came out at such an alarmingly slow rate, that they must be placed 
earlier in continuity.  

And every single one of those villians is staring off in different directions: 
Doom is crying for us, the reader, Juggernaught looks dead ahead. Magneto and 
Doc Ock are looking at various site of Ground Zero, and Kingpin is just 
staring into space, (or so it seems to me).

> By the way, Kevin, lest you start to think that we're doing NOTHING but 
shoot you down, you DO make a good point in one regard here:  you point out 
that Nick Fury is missing-in-action from Cap #37-44.  Now, Sean and I have the 
9/11 tragedy happening just before Avengers #38  and since references to that 
issue are made in Cap #44, we have to place the tragedy before the Cap #40-44 
arc as well.

> BUT, Nick Fury shows up in the Cap v4 #1-FB portion of the disaster, urging 
Cap to head to Kandahar and kick ass.  Therefore, if Fury's MIA from Cap 
#37-44, then the disaster has to come before them all

> See, Kevin?  You've made an impact after all.  ;)

*begins massive patting on the back*...but wait...my intention was to get you 
to place Sept. 11th AFTER the events of CAP #37-44...and you just went the 
exact opposite route! Curses!

> >> Why not have him predict other major events that befall the MU, events 
that occur during the span of the Kang War such as  the terrible tragedy of 
Sept. 11th?

> > Well, he could've made those predicitions, but why? He knows that everyone 
thinks he could be blowing smoke, so why waste his time? He gave them enough 
examples that would occur with 100% certainty that he proves his point. 
Graviton surprised him entirely.

> > I don't think what you're saying here is wrong, per se, just that we can't 
really use it in putting together a chronology.

> Yeah .. I honestly didn't get this either.  I mean, Kang DIDN'T make those 
predictions.  It seems like, just like with Cap, you're trying to chronologize 
by what ELSE you THINK characters MIGHT have done.  The simple answer to the 
question "why not have Kang predict all this stuff" is because, well, HE 
DIDN'T.  Not out loud, at any rate.

See my response under Sean's post. I didn't mean he said them outloud to his 
audience in NY...I meant he simply forsaw these events as well, and was 
basically saying, "I'm the only way Earth is going to survive all this crap 
it's about to go through".

			*	*	*

One last stone
Posted by Jeph! on September 07, 2002 at 02:01:39:
In Reply to: Re: Replies to Kevin and Sean...
posted by Kevin  on September 07, 2002 at 01:23:59:

Why can I not log off?  Ahhh, I hate this life I live.  ;)

> Kingpin is blinded in DD#15, the final act of a story arc encompassing DD9 
to DD15.  This storyline happens in rapid succession over the course of a few 
weeks.

Cool -- good to know.

>I maintain, (as have others) that since the first 20 issues of DD came out 
at such an alarmingly slow rate, that they must be placed earlier in 
continuity.

Please explain why this "logic" makes any continuity-based sense.  To me, the 
only reason that any comic has an absolute placement is if it CROSSES OVER 
with anything else!

What does DD2 #1-8 cross over with?  And where do THOSE issues take place?  
There, now you have a placement.

But if the issues were published in a vacuum, with no character overlap at 
all, then it wouldn't matter if it took four years to publish six issues -- 
you have NO BASIS to place it ANYWHERE in relative continuity, whether 
"further back" or "much later on".

(This is why I urge people to wait until more issues of "Soldier X" come out 
to place them, by the way...)

> And every single one of those villians is staring off in different 
directions: Doom is crying for us, the reader, Juggernaught looks dead ahead. 
Magneto and Doc Ock are looking at various site of Ground Zero, and Kingpin 
is just staring into space, (or so it seems to me).

I'm not saying he's NOT blind, I'm just saying that we should try to fit the 
continuity BOTH WAYS before we decide which it "should" be.

For example:  how long is the gap between DD2 #8 and 9?  Does it say?

----

>> See, Kevin?  You've made an impact after all.  ;)

> *begins massive patting on the back*...but wait...my intention was to get 
you to place Sept. 11th AFTER the events of CAP #37-44...and you just went 
the exact opposite route! Curses!

Ba ha ha ... we're tricky like that.

>>>> Why not have him predict other major events that befall the MU, events 
that occur during the span of the Kang War such as  the terrible tragedy of 
Sept. 11th?

>> The simple answer to the question "why not have Kang predict all this 
stuff" is because, well, HE DIDN'T.  Not out loud, at any rate.

> See my response under Sean's post. I didn't mean he said them outloud to 
his audience in NY...I meant he simply forsaw these events as well, and was 
basically saying, "I'm the only way Earth is going to survive all this crap 
it's about to go through".

Except that that isn't his motivation.  He's Kang the Conqueror, not Kang 
the benevolent world-savior.  He attacked 21st-century earth because it had 
always been his greatest challenge -- his "only I can save you" routine, 
true or not, was simply pre-war propaganda.  And it worked.

Okay -- I swear to God I'm gonna get some sleep now.

    -Jeph!
::will be more polite in the morning::

			*	*	*

Where does Spiderman fit in here?
Posted by Dimadick on September 05, 2002 at 02:40:43:
In Reply to: But Wait! Some Major Proposals! Another Kang War list!
posted by Kevin  on September 04, 2002 at 21:36:52:

> 68 days before K.W.=PPSM#26. This issue doesnt actually have Peter Parker 
in it in the present, so why not just put it here? 

63 days=9 weeks before K.W.=Also, I dont have issues 26-28 of ASM, so I 
dont know where they go, but maybe here?

Nice to see that at least somebody is trying to put the latest Spidey stories 
in some logical order and then relate them to the rest of the Marvel Universe.
Here some info on the three issues you don't have.

Amazing Spiderman #26. The issue starts with Spidey holding a mask of the 
Green Goblin in his hand. He says that lately, (meaning probably after Peter 
Parker-Spiderman #25), he has been looking in the mirror wondering who it is 
that is staring at him. The second page has a splash panel featuring New York 
at night. What seems to be the Twin Towers figure into the background. Peter 
has a three page monologue. In it he mentions among other things that last 
week Norman was working on this whole Drugging slash mind-control thing (sic).
Final phrase of the monologue "After all that happened with Norman, after all 
the questions he raised, I've got to know. I've got to know where I came from.
He searches for information on his father. First from aunt May and then from 
Mike Kallahan, a barman who used to be his father's best friend. We get a two 
pages flashback from Richard Parker's life. Then he has to turn to Spidey to 
face The Squid/Donny Kallahan, Mike's son. They remember their previous fight 
from Peter Parker Spiderman #16, "a couple of weeks ago". The Squid has been 
killing various shop owners lately so that their shops can be bought by his 
employers. (Among his kills is a Cigar shop owner called Frenzetti that said 
he had his fare share of famous customers: Nick Fury, the Thing, that short 
hairy Guy from Canada). Spidey gets the Squid to reconcile with his father 
and feel sorry for killing his father's friends who happened to baby-sit him 
when he was a child. End of the issue.

  Amazing Spider-Man #27.Its been weeks since Randy Robertson saw Peter as 
the Green Goblin but Rundy still keeps repeating his tale to Peter. He says 
he can't just let go of it. The rest of this issue is spent with Spidey 
trying to save a mutated cat from Mr. P and Mr. Q, two enforcers working for 
A.I.M. By the end of the issue Peter and Randy addopt the cat as a pet.

  Amazing Spider-man #28.This issue starts with Mary Jane's kidnaper listening 
to her pleas for help through a locked door. After two issues we get to see 
Randy's plot to get Peter a date with a girl called Fallon, that is under 
house arrest. Peter escapes and contemplates striking Randy but instead tries 
to relax before he uses his super-powers on his friend. The rest of the issue 
is occupied by Spidey getting involved in the gunfights between The Enforcers 
and Jimmy-6 and MJ's kidnapper watching the fight from the TV News and somehow 
feeling everything Peter feels during the fight. The issue ends with the 
Enforcers defaeated, their lifes spared due to Spidey and Spidey stuck staring 
at a poster of Mary Jane. The last panel has the real Mary Jane crying and 
asking her kidnapper to talk to her, just to let her know she is still alive. 
End of the issue. It continues in Amazing Spiderman #29.

  Not excactly important issues but see if you find anything interesting in 
them.

			*	*	*

Re: Where does Spiderman fit in here?
Posted by Kevin on September 06, 2002 at 12:45:59:
In Reply to: Where does Spiderman fit in here?
posted by Dimadick on September 05, 2002 at 02:40:43:

Thanks, I'll take these issues into consideration now on the next timeline I do.

			*	*	*

Re: But Wait! Some Major Proposals! Another Kang War list!
Posted by SKleefeld on September 05, 2002 at 15:48:19:
In Reply to: But Wait! Some Major Proposals! Another Kang War list!
posted by Kevin  on September 04, 2002 at 21:36:52:

Geez! I leave the board for a week and all this comes in. (Side Note to Jeph: 
I won't comment on your X-list since the only thing I could talk about is 
X-Treme, and we've already gone over that.)

> First, let me thank all of those Kang War Chronologists that have 
contributed so far...youve gone and inspired me to work on this list myself, 
and youve pointed out just how much fun the Marvel Universe can be just in 
trying to figure out how time passes...

Fun, annoying as hell: same difference. :)

> Anyway, I wish to make some humble suggestions, or rather, Ive made some 
strategic switches which I hope will meet your approval.  Feel free to provide 
allterations and well debate it, but I feel this list is a helpful 
improvement.  So Jeph, Sean, Paul, Russ, Tom Brevoort, and others, let me 
know what you think!

Heh. Don't worry, we will!

> Let me start by saying that every list so far has started with Sept. 11th.  
I have come to feel this may be an error.  Most of the Kang War and surrounding 
storylines were already written way before when Sept. 11th happened, and the 
people at Marvel then decided to work Sept. 11th into their universe, as seen 
in Amazing Spiderman #36, and Cap. vol 4 #1.    When youre starting your list 
off with Sept. 11th, its like you are sculpting the events of the Marvel 
Universe around a real world event, when I believe the approach we should be 
taking is to work around the major events of the Marvel Universe, and work 
Sept. 11th into that universes calender.  

As Jeph mentioned, this was dropped in considerably after the fact. I did end 
up using its placement to work in some of the DD storylines later, but the 
cast there was so ancillary to the Kang War that it doesn't really have much 
of a bearing on that book.

> Therefore, I propose that Sept. 11th happens much later than what you guys 
have previously figured.  One reason you had Sept. 11th so early is because 
of Hawkeye not being in prison, and Kingpin not being blind.  Ive come up 
for remedies for these instances.  

Well, Kingpin's blindness is only part of the problem. He's also killed/
comatized three months prior of the current arc. That means that there needs 
to be a gap of at least around 90 days between ASM #36 and the main storyline 
of DD #26. 

Now, while I don't hold to the idea of trying to place all this on a calendar, 
I think these types of references provide a fair guide to how things relate 
to each other. And since the DD story is so wrapped in time-critical 
flashbacks, I think more attention should be paid to these types of 
references. 

Also, you didn't like our placement because you thought the media would be 
more caught up in the fight against terrorism, yet you yourself placed the 
Murdock/DD revelantion in the midst of the Kang War. With the attacks from 
the Defenders, Khan, Kang, and Graviton all in a fairly short time frame, I 
think it makes more sense to put the "fluff" newspaper stories after all of 
it as a way of trying to return to normalcy. Would you care who DD really was, 
if there were four wars going on more-or-less simultaneously?

> The way I figured it, (and Im trying to reason like they may of had to at 
Marvel after Sept. 11th) we have to drop Sept. 11th into the MU somewhere.  
Why not after the Kang War starts, after Kang makes all these predictions 
about the terrible events that are about to be inflicted upon the Earth?  
After all, he predicts in Avengers #42:

> 1. The Russian villian the Presense launching his attack.
> 2. The events of The Ultron Imperative  
> 3. That Black Pyramid coming to Earth in Avengers #50.

> Why not have him predict other major events that befall the MU, events that 
occur during the span of the Kang War such as:  

> 1. The Universe getting destroyed as seen in FF# 49.
> 2. Graviton lifting the cities of Earth as seen in T-bolts 56-58.
> 3. The Destruction of the Island Genosha, (which um, does occur after the 
Kang War starts, right?)
> 4. That Khan guys invasion over in Extreme X-men, (I dont follow this 
book).

> And so, why not just add to that list: the terrible tragedy of Sept. 11th?

Well, he could've made those predicitions, but why? He knows that everyone 
thinks he could be blowing smoke, so why waste his time? He gave them enough 
examples that would occur with 100% certainty that he proves his point. 
Graviton surprised him entirely. 

I don't think what you're saying here is wrong, per se, just that we can't 
really use it in putting together a chronology.

> On previous lists, we have Cap going to train the Redeemers in Tbolts 50 to 
54 AFTER Sept. 11th, and AFTER the Kang War begins. We also have Cap going on 
vacation in CAP V.3 #49, also after the Kang War and Sept. 11th.  I say, why 
would Cap do that?  If a War of domination for the planet was going on, why 
would he go train some rookies and take a day off? And as mad as he was on 
Sept. 11th, a guy like Cap wouldnt be looking for a vacation anytime soon. 
The obvious answer is these Major events happen after Cap takes that mini 
vacation and after he begins training the Redeemers.  

Not necessarily. What better time to train new recruits to "the good fight" 
than when you need them?

Can't argue about the vacation thing too much though. But that's placed mainly 
in deference to all the other issues around it. We know where Cap #45-48 go, 
based on Iron Man's armor. We've got a fair idea of the stories in #50 for 
the same reason. #49 has to preceed #50 (by story references in #50, not 
necessarily the fact the 49 is less than 50) so #49 gets placed a little 
awkwardly.

I don't think that can be helped. With so many appearances by so many 
characters in so many books, there are BOUND to be a few instances that aren't 
as comfortable as we'd ideally like. 

> So where do we place Sept. 11th? Hawkeyes in jail, and Kingpin is blind, 
remember? How about this:  I remember reading on this board months ago that 
since the first 20 issues of the current Daredevil series were published at 
such a slow rate, that the people at this board were operating on the 
perspective that those events happened many months ago.  If Kingpin isnt 
blind, then the events of Daredevil #15 havent happened yet.  That story 
came out in the Fall of 2000 guys, and was originally scheduled for Spring 
2000 I believe).  My solution?  Kingpin is blind. He only appears in two 
panels of ASM #36, and though hes not wearing his, Im blind glasses, 
notice hes not looking at the wreckage. Hes looking off to the side, perhaps 
listening with his ears more than looking with his eyes.  

That's a possibility. Personally, I hadn't gone that far back in the DD issues 
to make it a problem one way or another. 

> Also, on another DD note, you have the current story of Daredevils secret 
identity being revealed to the public happening AFTER the Kang War has come 
to a close.  I dont know about you, but I believe that AFTER the Kang War 
has ended, the Associated Press has much more important matters to talk about 
on the evening news than the secret identity of a little-known-outside-New 
York superhero.  The Evening News is probably more concerned with stories 
about how the nations of the Earth are rebuilding after Kangs few weeks of 
rule.  Thus, I place the current DD storyline AFTER Sept. 11th, (where we see 
a Blind Kingpin and DD helping at the WTC site) but BEFORE Kang conquers the 
Earth in Avengers #49-54.

See, this I don't get. Every TV and radio station had WTC coverage for a 
solid coverage WITH NO OR FEW COMMERCIALS for almost a full week after 9-11. 
Wouldn't a war on your own home turf warrant even more coverage? Yeah, the 
DD news item is pretty insignificant, but doesn't that mean you should pull 
it out of the Kang War entirely?

> Good, since this is the version seen over the next few months in the 
Defenders, (do any of the other Hulks make an appearance in Defenders)?

There were a couple of points in Defenders that expressly said it was the 
savage Hulk that was tied to the curse. It didn't matter what Hulk/Banner 
incarnation was in charge at the time, he always reverted to savage Hulk 
when he popped over into that title.

> 51 days before K.W.=Defenders Vol.2 #5-7 occur over the next couple of 
days.  Banner appears, still aflicted with ALS.  Namorita appears captured, 
but since this is now BEFORE her appearance in FF, shes okay to stay 
captured from Defenders #2  (she does get release during this storyline, 
right?)

Nope, she's held captive from #5 through #11 as Jeph mentioned.

> *Avengers: Celestial Quest and Infinity Abyss happen sometime during this 
gap.  I dont have these issues, but I heard someone say that Spidey in 
Infinity Abyss makes a reference to being seperated from his wife at this 
point.

It's an implied reference. The Avengers have a bigger impact on the book's 
chronology with the appearance of Jack of Hearts and Goliath in #1.

> 33 days before K.W. CAP #41-44. These issues happen over the next 3 to 6 
days roughly, depending on how long it takes CAP to go to a former U.S.S.R. 
state, rescue Nick Fury, and get back in time to be ambushed by the 
Taskmaster. Taskmaster makes reference to the events of Avengers #38.

> 32 days before K.W. =FF#38-45. These stories happen in rapid succession of 
one another over the course of a few days. Notice Thor has rejoined the 
Avengers as seen in FF #39. By the way, I dont have a copy of FF#37. Is 
this the M.S. crossover issue? If not, when does it occur?

The MS crossover never actually gets to FF. Johnny does fight Super-Skrull 
in #37, but it's part of another running plot, unrelated to MS.

> 27 days before K.W.= PPSM#34.  Spidey vs. Mutant Monk with Killer Eyeballs. 
Wierd but good story.

"Quick! To the Monk-Mobile!"  :)

> 18 days before K.W.=CAP #49.  Happens on one day. CAPs on vacation. Its 
important that we place this here, since CAP wouldnt feel like taking a 
vacation after the K.W. starts.

As noted above, though, #49 gets placed where it does because of the events 
going on it other issues. #49, by itself, is pretty innocuous, but the 
surrounding Cap issues force it's placement deeper into the Kang War.

> Also on this date:  IM #42.  The events of this issue begin on the same day 
as the K.W., (or is it after? I admit it, I dont have this run of issues of 
IM either.  Can someone clarify these?)

IM loses his retro armor at the end of IM #41. He starts playing around with 
his transitional/ugly armor in #42. But that has to occure AFTER his retro 
armor appearances in Avengers #41-42. 

Also IM #43 and #46 have appearances of Goliath, which I don't see placed 
anywhere, but must surely take place before Hank settles into his Yellowjacket 
costume.

> Day 30 of the K.W.=Avengers #45-49. This begins the final stage of the 
Kang War. <br>> These issues happen over the course of roughly 4-5 days.

So, no explanation for Cap's injuries in #45?

> Day 10 after K.W.=Avengers #55. The White House is being quickly rebuilt.  
A memorial at Washington D.C. is drawing thousands of mourners.  I must admit, 
I cant find this issue tonight, (its around here somewhere).  So how many 
days after Kangs defeat did this actually happen?

I think the captions said 3 weeks.

> Should IM #46-48 happen during or after the K.W.?  I dont have those 
issues.

Before, for armor consistency. Keep in mind that IM is wearing the Grell/Ryan 
armor throughout at least part of the KW, and that doesn't debut in IM until 
#50. There are also several IM appearances (in varying armors) from Cap #45-50 
to contend with.

> As for why Bush would start a War on Terror after having just gone through 
the a global war...perhaps he wants that patriotic spirit to keep up?  Hes 
afraid that the country will pause for a minute to wonder where he was during 
the Kang War, so he distracts the nation? (sorry Bush fans).  Perhaps hes 
just fulfilling his vow he gave on Sept. 20th, to fight terrorists.

... and anyone else who doesn't fit into his idyllic world. By using momentum 
gained from other ventures, he thinks he can do anything he wants to. "Sure, 
I can just arbitrarily declare war on Iraq without anyone's consent! I bought 
the Presidency, and that means I can do anything I damn well please! To hell 
with everyone else, I need to placate my oil-drilling friends in Texas and 
this seems like a good way to get cheap oil for them."

Sorry, bit of off-topic rant there, but he really pisses me off. I don't think 
I've ever disagreed so consistently with one person on so many issues.

> The Bruce Jones issues of Hulk definently occur after the K.W. right? But do 
they occur before, after, or during The Order?

It almost has to be after, by the ALS storyline that's touched on in Defenders.

> I realize their may be disagreements on Sept. 11th placement, but do you 
believe this placement Ive come up with is at least feasible?

I kind of like the "he was blind during the attack" theory, but I think 
there's some other things that are throwing off your placement.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: But Wait! Some Major Proposals! Another Kang War list!
Posted by Kevin on September 07, 2002 at 00:56:27:
In Reply to: Re: But Wait! Some Major Proposals! Another Kang War list!
posted by SKleefeld on September 05, 2002 at 15:48:19:

> > So Jeph, Sean, Paul, Russ, Tom<br>> > Brevoort, and others, let me know 
what you think!

> Heh. Don't worry, we will!

Ah, you result to threatening me I see!  Well, I'll just resort to tossing 
stones back at you! Just kidding of course.:)

> > Therefore, I propose that Sept. 11th happens much later than what you 
guys have previously figured.  One reason you had Sept. 11th so early is 
because of Hawkeye not being in prison, and Kingpin not being blind.  Ive 
come up for remedies for these instances.  

> Well, Kingpin's blindness is only part of the problem. He's also killed/
comatized three months prior of the current arc. That means that there needs 
to be a gap of at least around 90 days between ASM #36 and the main storyline 
of DD #26.

Waitaminute, waitaminute...you say killed/comatized three months prior. That 
happened in DD#26. You're referring to the flashbacks to 3 months prior in 
the current story arc where Kingpin take Silke into his organization, (and 
we see that Kingpin is blind at the time), right?  So what you mean is Kingpin 
is blinded roughly 3 months prior, right? And could easily happened earlier 
than that even, right? Sorry, what you said confused me a tad bit.

> Now, while I don't hold to the idea of trying to place all this on a 
calendar, I think these types of references provide a fair guide to how 
things relate to each other. And since the DD story is so wrapped in time-
critical flashbacks, I think more attention should be paid to these types 
of references. 

> Also, you didn't like our placement because you thought the media would 
be more caught up in the fight against terrorism, yet you yourself placed 
the Murdock/DD revelantion in the midst of the Kang War. With the attacks 
from the Defenders, Khan, Kang, and Graviton all in a fairly short time frame, 
I think it makes more sense to put the "fluff" newspaper stories after all of 
it as a way of trying to return to normalcy. Would you care who DD really was, 
if there were four wars going on more-or-less simultaneously?

Well, I believe that I had Sept. 11th fall 14 days after Kang declares war in 
A#41.  Then, I have Matt Murdock's identity blown to the press around 25 days 
after A#41.  That's 11 days later. That's after Pres. Bush's speech on Sept. 
20th.  Of course, the news was reporting mostly on the Sept. 11th fallout, 
but the actual War on Terror didn't begin till early Oct.  I figured that the 
News, (in a move to return to somewhat normalcy) has taken the time to try 
and rip apart Matt Murdock's life, (the press has always given special 
coverage to Superhero's in the MU afterall).

But then Matt disappears to Japan for 28 days.  I figured that was a great 
time to drop the Kang War 'Proper' as it's called.  Matt ducks the press 
because America is taken over, and lays low in Japan and reevaluates his 
life.  He holds a Press conference after the KW is over.  

But I would submit that after the conquering of America by Kang, these stories 
of superhero unmasking's begin to be taken with a grain of salt.  Thus, 
Murdock can hold a press conference, because he's a well known NY lawyer, but 
I don't think his case will hold much media attention for much longer.  And 
that's why CAP and Iron Man's unmaskings barely even register.  The Media has 
more dire things to talk about.

> Well, he could've made those predicitions, but why? He knows that everyone 
thinks he could be blowing smoke, so why waste his time? He gave them enough 
examples that would occur with 100% certainty that he proves his point. 
Graviton surprised him entirely. 

> I don't think what you're saying here is wrong, per se, just that we can't 
really use it in putting together a chronology.

Another reason why I put Sept. 11th there:  Kang specifically says in A. #42, 
(I believe it's that issue) that the coming events will be too much for the 
Earth, and that only he could rule it and prevent the Earth's destruction.  I 
just figured that phrase would work as a "catch-all" for every major disastor 
that befalls the Earth in the next few months.  And I figured Sept. 11th 
qualifies as a major disaster, so why not place it after Kang's speech?

> > On previous lists, we have Cap going to train the Redeemers in Tbolts 50 
to 54 AFTER Sept. 11th, and AFTER the Kang War begins. We also have Cap going 
on vacation in CAP V.3 #49, also after the Kang War and Sept. 11th.  I say, 
why would Cap do that?  If a War of domination for the planet was going on, 
why would he go train some rookies and take a day off? And as mad as he was 
on Sept. 11th, a guy like Cap wouldnt be looking for a vacation anytime soon. 
The obvious answer is these Major events happen after Cap takes that mini 
vacation and after he begins training the Redeemers.  

> Not necessarily. What better time to train new recruits to "the good fight" 
than when you need them?

Because he's needs to be around warriors ready to leap into battle, not 
rookies who's first mission is to retrieve a person from Latveria.

I know, a fickle point, but still...

> Can't argue about the vacation thing too much though. But that's placed 
mainly in deference to all the other issues around it. We know where Cap 
#45-48 go, based on Iron Man's armor. We've got a fair idea of the stories 
in #50 for the same reason. #49 has to preceed #50 (by story references in 
#50, not necessarily the fact the 49 is less than 50) so #49 gets placed a 
little awkwardly.

Still, is  there no way that CAP #45-48 could go before A#41, because we 
could easily place CAP #49 after CAP #48?  Explain the problem with Iron 
Man's armor appearing in CAP #45-48, if you don't mind.  If we have to 
believe CAP will take a vacation after Sept. 11th, (which I'll grumble about 
for some time) I still find it hard to believe he'd take a vacation with 
Kang saying, "I'm going to invade Europe anyday now".

> I don't think that can be helped. With so many appearances by so many 
characters in so many books, there are BOUND to be a few instances that aren't 
as comfortable as we'd ideally like. 

> > So where do we place Sept. 11th? Hawkeyes in jail, and Kingpin is blind, 
remember? How about this:  I remember reading on this board months ago that 
since the first 20 issues of the current Daredevil series were published at 
such a slow rate, that the people at this board were operating on the 
perspective that those events happened many months ago.  If Kingpin isnt 
blind, then the events of Daredevil #15 havent happened yet.  That story 
came out in the Fall of 2000 guys, and was originally scheduled for Spring 
2000 I believe).  My solution?  Kingpin is blind. He only appears in two 
panels of ASM #36, and though hes not wearing his, Im blind glasses, 
notice hes not looking at the wreckage. Hes looking off to the side, 
perhaps listening with his ears more than looking with his eyes.  

> That's a possibility. Personally, I hadn't gone that far back in the DD 
issues to make it a problem one way or another. 

I believe it's a strong possibility. Otherwise, DD#9-15 has to happen after 
Maximum Security, and after Sept. 11th, and that's cramming an awful lot in. 
I believe it was Russ's theory that the events of DD are, (or rather were) 
occuring so slowly, that they were taking place months in the past.  

> > Also, on another DD note, you have the current story of Daredevils 
secret identity being revealed to the public happening AFTER the Kang War 
has come to a close.  I dont know about you, but I believe that AFTER the 
Kang War has ended, the Associated Press has much more important matters to 
talk about on the evening news than the secret identity of a little-known-
outside-New York superhero.  The Evening News is probably more concerned 
with stories about how the nations of the Earth are rebuilding after Kangs 
few weeks of rule.  Thus, I place the current DD storyline AFTER Sept. 11th,
(where we see a Blind Kingpin and DD helping at the WTC site) but BEFORE 
Kang conquers the Earth in Avengers #49-54.

> See, this I don't get. Every TV and radio station had WTC coverage for a 
solid coverage WITH NO OR FEW COMMERCIALS for almost a full week after 9-11. 
Wouldn't a war on your own home turf warrant even more coverage? Yeah, the 
DD news item is pretty insignificant, but doesn't that mean you should pull 
it out of the Kang War entirely?

See response above, on DD being a good side item between Sept. 20th and (in 
real life) the War on Terrorism) and in the MU, the Kang War Proper.

> > 27 days before K.W.= PPSM#34.  Spidey vs. Mutant Monk with Killer 
Eyeballs.  Wierd but good story.

"Quick! To the Monk-Mobile!"  :)

How can such a funny story have such a sad ending?

*sniff*

> > As for why Bush would start a War on Terror after having just gone through 
the a global war...perhaps he wants that patriotic spirit to keep up?  Hes 
afraid that the country will pause for a minute to wonder where he was during 
the Kang War, so he distracts the nation? (sorry Bush fans).  Perhaps hes 
just fulfilling his vow he gave on Sept. 20th, to fight terrorists.

> ... and anyone else who doesn't fit into his idyllic world. By using momentum 
gained from other ventures, he thinks he can do anything he wants to. "Sure, I 
can just arbitrarily declare war on Iraq without anyone's consent! I bought 
the Presidency, and that means I can do anything I damn well please! To hell 
with everyone else, I need to placate my oil-drilling friends in Texas and 
this seems like a good way to get cheap oil for them."

> Sorry, bit of off-topic rant there, but he really pisses me off. I don't 
think I've ever disagreed so consistently with one person on so many issues.

Not that I'm as "angry" with current world situations as you are...but can 
you see Bush referring to Kang as an "evildoer"?  That would crack me up!  
Sorry, off topic as well...

Well, I'm glad you shared your thoughts, and withheld your stones. :)

			*	*	*

Some Stones.
Posted by Jeph! on September 07, 2002 at 01:51:21:
In Reply to: Re: But Wait! Some Major Proposals! Another Kang War list!
posted by Kevin on September 07, 2002 at 00:56:27:

Here come some stones.  It's late and I want to go to bed, so if this comes 
off as curt, I apologize in advance.

>> [ASM2 #36] - Well, Kingpin's blindness is only part of the problem. He's 
also killed/comatized three months prior of the current arc. That means that 
there needs to be a gap of at least around 90 days between ASM #36 and the 
main storyline of DD #26.

> Waitaminute, waitaminute...you say killed/comatized three months prior. 
That happened in DD#26. You're referring to the flashbacks to 3 months prior 
in the current story arc where Kingpin take Silke into his organization, (and 
we see that Kingpin is blind at the time), right? So what you mean is Kingpin 
is blinded roughly 3 months prior, right? And could easily happened earlier 
than that even, right? Sorry, what you said confused me a tad bit.

Now I'M confused.  What Sean is saying is that, since the Kingpin is not in 
a coma in ASM2 #36, it needs to take place before the FB in DD2 #26 where he 
is attacked.  And that flashback takes place three months prior to the main 
body of DD2 #26  so there is a three-month gap, at least, between Sept. 11 
and the main events of DD2 #26-38  and that includes DD's unmasking in #32.

There you have it, strong evidence  heck, PROOF   FROM THE BOOKS THEMSELVES, 
that DD's unmasking could not and did not happen on Sept. 22 as you'd like to 
think it does.

Sean isn't saying anything about when the Kingpin was blinded relative to 
9/11.  Neither am I, until I get my hands on some Daredevil books.

> Well, I believe that I had Sept. 11th fall 14 days after Kang declares war 
in A#41. Then, I have Matt Murdock's identity blown to the press around 25 
days after A#41. That's 11 days later.

See above for proof that this can't be right.

> That's after Pres. Bush's speech on Sept. 20th. Of course, the news was 
reporting mostly on the Sept. 11th fallout, but the actual War on Terror 
didn't begin till early Oct.

Okay, that's it.  Stop.  Stop doing this.  You CANNOT use current world 
events to guess at the order of Marvel books.  The War on Terror is happening 
in the REAL WORLD, and all this other stuff is happening in the MARVEL 
UNIVERSE  as yet, we don't even have any proof that there IS a "War on 
Terror" in the MU.  So placing a likely spot for DD's unmasking based on 
lulls in the REAL-WORLD media is very very bad logic.

Because, you see, in ten years it's going to be 2012 in the Marvel Universe, 
and the FF will have taken their fateful rocket flight in 1996.  And the 
2002-03 "War on Terror" will be a blip on people's radar  not something that 
fits in with Daredevil's unmasking, which by 2012 will be reckoned to have 
occurred in 2009.

I'm sorry, I'm ranting, but you just can't be chronologizing this way  Marvel 
Time moves at a considerably different pace that real-time, and superimposing 
one against the other leads to big trouble down the line.

Here's what I propose for ASM2 #36 and CA4 #1-FB, the 9/11 issues: forget 
them.  Remove them from your list of comics.  Place everything ELSE on your 
list in the order you want it, get everything finalized and locked down.  
THEN go back through your list and, BASED ON EVIDENCE FROM THE COMICS, find 
a likely place to drop in the 9/11 issues.

The main issue is, how does all this other stuff fit around the KANG WAR, is 
it not?  Let's stop obsessing about a story which nobody else thinks is canon 
anyway.

> But I would submit that after the conquering of America by Kang, these 
stories of superhero unmasking's begin to be taken with a grain of salt. Thus, 
Murdock can hold a press conference, because he's a well known NY lawyer, but 
I don't think his case will hold much media attention for much longer. And 
that's why CAP and Iron Man's unmaskings barely even register. The Media has 
more dire things to talk about.

This, on the other hand, is a very plausible rationale.  The thing is, I like 
it because you're NOT trying to use it as PROOF that the unmaskings happened 
after the Kang War.  You're simply using it to rationalize why Cap and Iron 
Man don't seem to be big news.

> Another reason why I put Sept. 11th there: Kang specifically says in A. 
#42, (I believe it's that issue) that the coming events will be too much for 
the Earth, and that only he could rule it and prevent the Earth's destruction. 
I just figured that phrase would work as a "catch-all" for every major 
disastor that befalls the Earth in the next few months. And I figured Sept. 
11th qualifies as a major disaster, so why not place it after Kang's speech?

Bad logic. The MU has, per capita, one major disaster every month.  Surely 
some of them occurred before Kang's speech, yes?  Besides, as rude as this 
sounds, I don't see the destruction of the WTC as a disaster that will 
"destroy the world" as Kang says.

Just because Kang says disasters are coming, doesn't mean that every disaster 
you find needs to be placed after his prediction.  Absence of proof of one 
thing does not mean positive proof of the opposite.

You have no proof, you have no evidence, that Kang was referring to 9/11 when 
he made his speech.  Whereas, with the Magneto thing, you have some nice 
strong book-evidence for placement.

>>> If a War of domination for the planet was going on, why would he go train 
some rookies?  The obvious answer is these Major events happen after Cap  
begins training the Redeemers.

>> Not necessarily. What better time to train new recruits to "the good fight" 
than when you need them?

> Because he's needs to be around warriors ready to leap into battle, not 
rookies who's first mission is to retrieve a person from Latveria.

Look  show me evidence from the books one way or another.  Let's stop arguing 
about what WE THINK Cap MIGHT HAVE done, and figure out from EVIDENCE what it 
is that he DID.

> Still, is there no way that CAP #45-48 could go before A#41, because we 
could easily place CAP #49 after CAP #48?

No.  There is no way.

> Explain the problem with Iron Man's armor appearing in CAP #45-48, if you 
don't mind.

Certainly.  In the arc, Iron Man is seen wearing his Ugly Suit of armor, 
which hadn't been developed until IM3 #44.  And based on dialogue (and Tony's 
goatee) in A3 #41, Tony is just about to drop out of sight and begin building 
new armor, which is a reference to IM3 #42.  So, it goes like this:

A3 #41  an unshaven Tony, wearing his classic armor, talks with the Wasp 
about dropping from sight.
A3 #43-44  Iron Man is, in fact, out of sight.
IM3 #42-44  Tony shaves the goatee, goes undercover as "Hogan Potts", and 
works on the armor from #42-43 until he develops the Ugly Suit in #44.
CA3 #45-48  Iron Man guest-stars, wearing the ugly armor.

> If we have to believe CAP will take a vacation after Sept. 11th, (which 
I'll grumble about for some time) I still find it hard to believe he'd take 
a vacation with Kang saying, "I'm going to invade Europe anyday now".

Dude  please to suspend thy disbelief and look to the comics themselves for 
clues.  Not speculation.  And, per my reading of Cap #49, he took THE DAY 
OFF  not "a vacation".  Heck, the man goes to France for a week in #50, I 
don't see you complaining about that.

Harken to Sean's words of wisdom, which I have copied here:

>> With so many appearances by so many characters in so many books, there are 
BOUND to be a few instances that aren't as comfortable as we'd ideally like.

>>> My solution? Kingpin is blind. He only appears in two panels of ASM #36, 
and though hes not wearing his, "Im blind" glasses, notice hes not looking 
at the wreckage.

>> That's a possibility. Personally, I hadn't gone that far back in the DD 
issues to make it a problem one way or another.

> I believe it's a strong possibility. Otherwise, DD#9-15 has to happen after 
Maximum Security, and after Sept. 11th, and that's cramming an awful lot in.

Not at the rate Bendis writes!  In any case, it's not a case of "cramming so 
much in"  it's a case of whether there are any crossover elements that 
prevent it from being ordered that way.  As far as I know, you'd have to 
check the Daredevil/Spider-Man miniseries, as well as all "Marvel Knights" 
issues post-#6 (the Marvel Knights MaxSec crossover), to see if there are 
any references that would help you place DD2 #9-25 alongside any other Marvel 
books.  Otherwise, Daredevil exists in a vacuum, and if so, stuff can be 
slid up and down with no real problem.  (Cramming isn't always bad -- I mean, 
we're cramming ten issues of Thor in-between A3 #55-56, here.)

With that said, I just uncovered a Kingpin appearance in Iron Man #37 where 
he's supposed to be blind but isn't wearing his little glasses  maybe it's 
pride again, or keeping up public appearances.  I think we should make the 
EFFORT to try to fit DD #15-25 in front of ASM2 #36, and if it doesn't work, 
we gracefully give up and say "okay, he's blind there."

By the way, I love the phrase "'I'm blind' glasses".  That's perfect.

>> Sorry, bit of off-topic rant there, but he really pisses me off. I don't 
think I've ever disagreed so consistently with one person on so many issues.

>> Not that I'm as "angry" with current world situations as you are...but 
can you see Bush referring to Kang as an "evildoer"? That would crack me up! 
Sorry, off topic as well...

I had morbidly thought about MU-Bush accusing Kang of being funded by 
Al-Qaeda  :)

> Well, I'm glad you shared your thoughts, and withheld your stones. :)

And, as I said above, my apologies if any of this came off as curt or angry.  
This sort of thing isn't worth ire, but sometimes I need to be plain-spoken 
if I'm to effectively make my point

And with that  at 3am, he went to bed.  Have a good weekend, everyone.

	-Jeph!
::dreading Paul's upcoming calendar  DREADING it::

			*	*	*

Re: Some Stones.
Posted by SKleefeld on September 07, 2002 at 16:07:40:
In Reply to: Some Stones. 
posted by Jeph! on September 07, 2002 at 01:51:21:

Playing backup for a sleep-deprived Jeph...

> >> [ASM2 #36] - Well, Kingpin's blindness is only part of the problem. He's 
also killed/comatized three months prior of the current arc. That means that 
there needs to be a gap of at least around 90 days between ASM #36 and the 
main storyline of DD #26.

> > Waitaminute, waitaminute...you say killed/comatized three months prior. 
That happened in DD#26. You're referring to the flashbacks to 3 months prior 
in the current story arc where Kingpin take Silke into his organization, (and 
we see that Kingpin is blind at the time), right? So what you mean is Kingpin 
is blinded roughly 3 months prior, right? And could easily happened earlier 
than that even, right? Sorry, what you said confused me a tad bit.

> Now I'M confused.  What Sean is saying is that, since the Kingpin is not 
in a coma in ASM2 #36, it needs to take place before the FB in DD2 #26 where 
he is attacked.  And that flashback takes place three months prior to the 
main body of DD2 #26  so there is a three-month gap, at least, between 
Sept. 11 and the main events of DD2 #26-38  and that includes DD's unmasking 
in #32.

> There you have it, strong evidence  heck, PROOF   FROM THE BOOKS 
THEMSELVES, that DD's unmasking could not and did not happen on Sept. 22 as 
you'd like to think it does.

To sum up (since it pisses Jeph off when I do), we have Kingpin visiting the 
WTC site on 9-11. (More likely, on 9-12 since it would've taken time for 
Magneto and Doom to show up.) Some time after that, he's attacked by his own 
men and left for dead. He's out of the picture, may as well be dead. Three 
months after that attack, Matt Murdock's name is splattered all over the 
papers. 

Everything we see in DD from #26-38 has to happen after ASM #36 since 
Kingpin is out of commission for almost the ENTIRE DD arc. 

I'm not saying other DD issues need to come before or after our 9-11, just 
from #26 onward.

> > That's after Pres. Bush's speech on Sept. 20th. Of course, the news was 
reporting mostly on the Sept. 11th fallout, but the actual War on Terror 
didn't begin till early Oct.

> Okay, that's it.  Stop.  Stop doing this.  You CANNOT use current world 
events to guess at the order of Marvel books.  The War on Terror is happening 
in the REAL WORLD, and all this other stuff is happening in the MARVEL 
UNIVERSE  as yet, we don't even have any proof that there IS a "War on 
Terror" in the MU.  So placing a likely spot for DD's unmasking based on 
lulls in the REAL-WORLD media is very very bad logic.

One of the reasons Russ asked us to keep this discussion on the boards 
instead of in private emails is to let everyone see how chronolgizing works. 
So here's rule #1...

We can only work with what we're given in the books themselves. Basic 
principles of science here: you can't ASSUME anything. We can't assume DD 
#40-something will have a magic formula that puts all of this in place. You 
can't assume that Chicago was attacked during the Kang War. Yes, sometimes 
we have to make up some kind of filler material to get from point A to point 
B, but we want to minimize that as much as possible. Occam's razor: if 
there's a simpler solution to the problem, it's probably the correct one.

So, yeah, we could say Kang was talking about 9-11 and Khan's invasion and 
Graviton and everything else, but then we'd also have to generate more 
filler garbage to justify other imperical evidence. We know, by Iron Man's 
armor, that Kang's initial speech occured before Cap #45-48, for example. 

Take She-Hulk. During the early stages of the Kang War, she's in China. 
During the later half, she's in France. So how do we rectify her NYC 
appearances in FF and Hulk? By putting those titles between her China and 
France trips, we minimize the of travelling she does. Otherwise, you'd have 
to send her from China to NYC to France to NYC and back to France (or 
something equally absurd). 

We need to look at EVERYTHING simultaneously. Yes, it's a big job and 
absurdly difficult, but things just don't work otherwise. That's why Jeph 
and I have been tossing this back and forth for so long: I'll make a proposal 
and he'll notice an iconsistency with some other book. Then he makes a 
proposal and I point out an inconsistency somewhere else. 

The idea is to smooth things out as much as possible, and by having to 
fabricate more rationales, you're putting more bumps in the road. Remember, 
when Russ eventually writes this up on his site, it'll say ISSUE 1, ISSUE 2, 
ISSUE 3. Not ISSUE 1, ISSUE 2, President Bush's speech on Sept. 20, ISSUE 3. 
That's a bump that doesn't need to be there.

Limit yourself to what's in the books. If there's a problem that just cannot 
be resolved by the books themselves, then and only then can you begin to 
justify putting other elements into the mix.

> Look  show me evidence from the books one way or another.  Let's stop 
arguing about what WE THINK Cap MIGHT HAVE done, and figure out from EVIDENCE 
what it is that he DID.

Exactly! What are we actually shown in the comics themselves? 

Prime example: Defenders #2 has a scene where Namor and Namorita are fending 
off Attuma and his warriors. Suddenly, Namor is blipped out, leaving Nita on 
her own. Attuma snarls menacingly and Nita looks scared. The scene then cuts 
to something else.

The next we see Nita in Defenders is #5, where Attuma has her captured and in 
chains. So the ASSUMPTION is that he got hold of her in #2. But we've got too 
many of her and Namor appearing in other books for that to work, so we can 
justify putting her FF appearances between the two books, BECAUSE WE AREN'T 
EXPRESSLY SHOWN WHEN SHE'S CAPTURED. We only know that she is captured by #5. 
Her capture in #2 is only IMPLIED, and we can work that wiggle room they 
unintentionally gave us. 

By the same token, we can justify any attacks after Kang's speech as something 
he knew about, but they are only IMPLIED, so we can't base our chronology on 
that, just as we can't base our chronology around Nita's IMPLIED capture in 
Defenders #2.

> > Explain the problem with Iron Man's armor appearing in CAP #45-48, if you 
don't mind.

> Certainly.  In the arc, Iron Man is seen wearing his Ugly Suit of armor, 
which hadn't been developed until IM3 #44.  And based on dialogue (and Tony's 
goatee) in A3 #41, Tony is just about to drop out of sight and begin building 
new armor, which is a reference to IM3 #42.  So, it goes like this:

> A3 #41  an unshaven Tony, wearing his classic armor, talks with the Wasp 
about dropping from sight.
> A3 #43-44  Iron Man is, in fact, out of sight.
> IM3 #42-44  Tony shaves the goatee, goes undercover as "Hogan Potts", and 
works on the armor from #42-43 until he develops the Ugly Suit in #44.
> CA3 #45-48  Iron Man guest-stars, wearing the ugly armor.

What he said.  :)

What I'd like to add here is that costume changes are a good indicator of 
determining chronological placement of stories. If we get a Daredevil 
flashback where he wears a yellow suit, we know it must be pretty early in his 
career. If we have a Nightcrawler wearing a priest's collar, then we know it's 
fairly recent. 

(The one notably exception here is the Wasp. Her costume changes are SO 
frequent that they become irrelevant to chronological placement.)

Iron Man has worn at least 5 different armors in the past year or two. Those 
changes in armor are critical in placing how issues tie in to one another 
between books. Unless we have specific evidence otherwise (as in the case with 
Ultron Imperative) we, again, want to minimize the number of times he has to 
change suits.

And, again, this is why we have to look at EVERYTHING.

> > Not that I'm as "angry" with current world situations as you are...but 
can you see Bush referring to Kang as an "evildoer"? That would crack me up! 
Sorry, off topic as well...

That would at least make more sense than half the drivel he blabbers about.

And, for the record, I'm not so much pissed at the current world situation 
as I am with how G.W. is handling it.

> I had morbidly thought about MU-Bush accusing Kang of being funded by 
Al-Qaeda  :)

Oh, hell, everybody he doesn't like is a frickin' Al-Qaeda terrorist according 
to Bush!

Sorry, off-topic rant again.

I don't mean to sound overly harsh, Kevin, and I apologize if I came across 
that way at all. But the whole point of developing the MCP is to make the 
stories flow together as seamlessly as possible. All of them. Together. One 
"Big Ass List"(TM). And, to do that, we need to limit our research to what 
we can actually find evidence of.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

I'm picking myself up out of these BOULDER'S that  were thrown...
Posted by Kevin on September 07, 2002 at 19:09:11:
In Reply to: Re: Some Stones.
posted by SKleefeld on September 07, 2002 at 16:07:40:

Just kidding of course.  Look, I expected to be shot down, so it's no big 
deal. I figured you guys had explanations for just about everything, but I 
felt I could contribute a little, (and I'm glad I did).  You guys have much 
more experience at this whole chronology thing, and have pointed out that 
comic book chronology has to obey certain fundamental laws. Thanks for the 
corrections.

Jeph: You, Sean, and Paul obviously have more comic titles that I am not 
privy to, thus when you went about your timelines, you were a little more 
prepared. I thought maybe I could reconstruct certain events, but your 
Magneto apperance explanations work great, so I think you've probably picked 
the best place for 9/11 as it is.  

Some of my frustration with placing certain events has to do with placing 
certain events BASED SOLELY ON THE COSTUME/ARMOR THAT A CHARACTER IS WEARING 
AT THE TIME!  I mean, I read someone here, (Jeph, maybe) say that it was 
Frank Tieri's fault concerning a Hank Pym appearance in Iron Man, and that 
it messed up your timeline.  That sucks!  When little "coinkidinks" like that 
happen, it ruins somewhat how a person feels a storyline should flow.  

Just like some of don't like how Hank SHOULD NOT appear in his Goliath 
costume after Avengers Annual 2001, (but seems to do just that), I don't 
like just because of all of Iron Man's freaking armor's changes, (Does it 
change every 6 months now, or what?) that you have to place certain books 
where you do.  But, yes, I understand that basic laws of comic book universe 
place certain events happening before and after the other.  So while I moan 
about it, I realize now that not much can be done about it, (and thanks for 
helping me to realize that).

Sorry for the rant, but I needed to get that off my chest.  Yeah, my ego's a 
little bruised, but judging by what Jeph said about Sean bruising his ego, I 
suspect I got off lucky! :)

Jeph, I made those posts last night after midnight, and I was sleepy as hell 
then, and my comments probably seemed flippant...so I can only imagine that 
your comments are indeed what comments at 3 in the morning look like. It's 
no big deal, we were both probably up way to late. I know I was.

So thanks for debating me. I'll still contribute when I feel the need, and 
I for one am LOOKING FORWARD to Paul's new timeline. I don't fear it 
whatsoever.:)

			*	*	*

Landslide!
Posted by Jeph! on September 07, 2002 at 21:45:45:
In Reply to: I'm picking myself up out of these BOULDER'S that  were thrown...
posted by Kevin on September 07, 2002 at 19:09:11:

Ahh.....sweet sleep.

> You guys have much more experience at this whole chronology thing, and 
have pointed out that comic book chronology has to obey certain fundamental 
laws. Thanks for the corrections.

Kevin, Kevin!  Don't go away mad.  Hell, don't go away at all.  It doesn't 
matter who's had more "experience" -- sometimes a fresh pair of eyes can 
spot something that EVERYONE else has missed (like the Nick Fury-Cap #37 
thing)!

I don't want you to feel like we jumped all over your case, told you to shut 
up and go away, and poured sand down your shorts.  Hell, forget "we" -- *I*, 
speaking for the comments I've written, never meant to come off that way.

Sean is able to use tact and a light touch to make a point -- when I need to 
cut to the heart of things, I get plain-spoken.  It's just my way.  I know 
you joke and say you're not offended, but I want to reiterate that your input 
is WELCOME HERE.

Heck -- when I started posting here I was a buzzing voice in the background.  
I still am, but I post more often now.  ;)  The people I'm working with are 
members of the MCP "Board staff" -- I'm not.  And they're not sneering at 
me.  And I, in turn, am not sneering at you.  This isn't an elitist thing 
where only a small circle of good friendfs can play -- this is for all comic 
fans.  Like me, and you.

I'm honored to have been made welcome here, and you deserve the same.

Just because I'm criticizing your WORK doesn't meaning I'm criticizing YOU.  
So please don't take any of it personally, and feel free to keep posting as 
much chronology stuff as you like.  We'll read it and critique it.  That's 
how it goes.

> Jeph: You, Sean, and Paul obviously have more comic titles that I am not 
privy to, thus when you went about your timelines, you were a little more 
prepared.

Yeah -- that's why I'm working on the "puzzle pieces" posting.  I figure, 
once we all have the same basic information, we can ALL try to assemble the 
pieces.

> Some of my frustration with placing certain events has to do with placing 
certain events BASED SOLELY ON THE COSTUME/ARMOR THAT A CHARACTER IS WEARING 
AT THE TIME!

I know, it sucks, but that's how it's done.  I mean, yes, there are accidents, 
but generally if a writer of artist puts a character in a particular outfit, 
they intend for the story to go during the time that character was dressed 
that way.  In many cases, it's one of the best indicators we HAVE for 
organizing these books.

Yeah, Frank Tieri pulled a boner and gave us Goliath instead of 
Yellowjacket -- heck, even Kurt Busiek gave us a problem when he swapped 
Hank from Goliath to YJ -- but we lived.  Had there been NO WAY to rationalize 
it off, we would have just gone with it, but we found one -- and sometimes, 
byzantine things like that are part of the FUN of trying to organize 200-some 
books into one long list. 

> But, yes, I understand that basic laws of comic book universe place certain 
events happening before and after the other.  So while I moan about it, I 
realize now that not much can be done about it, (and thanks for helping me to 
realize that).

Eh -- SOME things can be done.  Within the rules, there are ways to get 
creative.  Your solution for Kingpin's blindness, for example -- he needs to 
be blind there, so -- okay -- he's blind!  But he forgot his "I'm blind" 
glasses.  There you go.

Or, Sean and I had a field day flipping Yellowjecket's appearances in A3 #45 
and A:UI.  Have you read his "character thoughts" rationalization?  Hilarity, 
but IT WORKS.

> Sorry for the rant, but I needed to get that off my chest.  Yeah, my ego's 
a little bruised, but judging by what Jeph said about Sean bruising his ego, 
I suspect I got off lucky! :)

Transcript of Jeph and Sean's e-mails:

Jeph:  "What about--"
Sean:  "No."
Jeph:  "Then what about--"
Sean:  "No."
Jeph:  "Okay, what about--"
Sean:  "No."
Jeph:  "Goddammit!!"

> Jeph, I made those posts last night after midnight, and I was sleepy as 
hell then, and my comments probably seemed flippant...

You know what?  You didn't seem at all flippant.  Don't worry about it.

> I for one am LOOKING FORWARD to Paul's new timeline. I don't fear it 
whatsoever.:)

You're the only one.  I smell the torpedoes he's aiming at the very 
foundations of my X-Men list.

    -Jeph!

PS, to all -- seeing as Russ asked us to keep things on-list to get a "behind 
the scenes" peek at this sort of thing, I'm thinking of posting the e-mail 
conversations Sean and I had.  Would that be of any interest to anyone?  Sean, 
is that okay with you?

			*	*	*

Re: Landslide!
Posted by Kevin  on September 08, 2002 at 00:28:02:
In Reply to: Landslide!
posted by Jeph! on September 07, 2002 at 21:45:45:

> Just because I'm criticizing your WORK doesn't meaning I'm criticizing YOU.  
So please don't take any of it personally, and feel free to keep posting as 
much chronology stuff as you like.  We'll read it and critique it.  That's 
how it goes.

Well, yeah, of course I'll still post.  I've been a looong time lurker of 
this webpage for years now. I've even made the occasional anonymous post.  
This is just the first time I've tried to get knee deep in this pile of %^&* 
known as chronology and timelines. It's fun, but as someone here said, a 
pain in the ass as well.

And yes, I can take constructive critisism. You have to as a writer, (which 
I am, just not published too much...does that constitute writing?) I must 
admit to have a nasty revenge fantasy after reading your post Jeph:  "Just 
you wait...I'll get published by Marvel comics someday, and then you'll have 
to sort through MY WORK!!! MWU-HAHAHAHA!"

Like I said: My ego was bruised a little, nothing more, nothing less.

By the way, if you guys know of any comic artists looking to colaborate with 
a writer, point them my way: wonderfly@hotmail.com.  Sorry, shameless self 
promotion will now end.  

> > But, yes, I understand that basic laws of comic book universe place 
certain events happening before and after the other.  So while I moan about 
it, I realize now that not much can be done about it, (and thanks for helping 
me to realize that).

> Eh -- SOME things can be done.  Within the rules, there are ways to get 
creative.  Your solution for Kingpin's blindness, for example -- he needs to 
be blind there, so -- okay -- he's blind!  But he forgot his "I'm blind" 
glasses.  There you go.

> Or, Sean and I had a field day flipping Yellowjecket's appearances in A3 #45 
and A:UI.  Have you read his "character thoughts" rationalization?  Hilarity, 
but IT WORKS.

I saw that. Classic comedy you guys got there. And you keep adding on to it 
too!  You got enough there for a miniseries of thought baloons between Wanda 
and Hank Pym!

> PS, to all -- seeing as Russ asked us to keep things on-list to get a 
"behind the scenes" peek at this sort of thing, I'm thinking of posting the 
e-mail conversations Sean and I had.  Would that be of any interest to 
anyone?  Sean, is that okay with you?

Yes, I think posting these now infamous emails would be good, and helpful.  
But if it would just be more convenient to post those "problem comic 
discussion threads" then just go that route. Or both. Or whatever. You'll 
figure it out. It's late, I'm going to bed.

P.S. I hope we haven't gone too far off topic. Yes, these threads are 
supposed to be about placement of Marvel comics, but we're discussing the 
type of threads  that should be used on this board, and just discussing 
these threads in general.    

			*	*	*

Re: Landslide!
Posted by Russ Chappell on September 08, 2002 at 23:01:39:
In Reply to: Landslide!
posted by Jeph! on September 07, 2002 at 21:45:45:

> PS, to all -- seeing as Russ asked us to keep things on-list to get a 
"behind the scenes" peek at this sort of thing, I'm thinking of posting the 
e-mail conversations Sean and I had.  Would that be of any interest to 
anyone?  Sean, is that okay with you?

May I make a suggestion? Rather than posting your previous email discussions 
here on the board, I'd prefer to create a separate page containing your 
orrespondence. As part of a...sort of...how-to page.

All of this with Sean's approval, of course, and after you've both had a 
chance to edit out any parts of the emails that are, well, off-topic.

			*	*	*

E-mail Landslide
Posted by Jeph! on September 08, 2002 at 23:56:59:
In Reply to: Re: Landslide!
posted by Russ Chappell on September 08, 2002 at 23:01:39:

Sounds good to me -- I had always planned on editing the personal bits out, 
but if you'd prefer it to be on a separate page, so be it.

I'm not sure how well it works as a strict "how-to" page, but it's certainly 
a good EXAMPLE.

I'm waiting on Sean's affirmative, and then one of us will pull the whole 
thing together and e-mail it to you privately.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

THUNDERBOLTS and HELLCAT
Posted by BobMM on September 05, 2002 at 15:44:39:

By the end of THUNDERBOLTS #50, Hawkeye is in custody and Songbird has 
surrendered her equipment. But the chronology places their appearance in 
HELLCAT #3 after TB #50.  Can someone please explain the rationale for 
this?

			*	*	*

Re: THUNDERBOLTS and HELLCAT
Posted by Russ Chappell on September 05, 2002 at 23:33:08:
In Reply to: THUNDERBOLTS and HELLCAT
posted by BobMM on September 05, 2002 at 15:44:39:

> By the end of THUNDERBOLTS #50, Hawkeye is in custody and Songbird has 
surrendered her equipment. But the chronology places their appearance in 
HELLCAT #3 after TB #50.  Can someone please explain the rationale for this?

Hawkeye & Songbird were two of about a dozen characters that make cameo 
appearances in Hellcat #3, and at the time, I felt like that placement 
actually presented the smallest problems. If you have Hellcat #2 and #3, 
and can suggest appropriate placement for all the other characters, not 
just Hawkeye and Songbird, I'd be glad to entertain your theory.

And for the record, Songbird (and by extension, Hawkeye) appears in Hellcat 
#3 "before the end of Thunderbolts #50", not "after Thunderbolts #50" (examine 
Songbird's chronology carefully).

			*	*	*

Re: THUNDERBOLTS and HELLCAT
Posted by Jeph! on September 05, 2002 at 23:43:48:
In Reply to: Re: THUNDERBOLTS and HELLCAT
posted by Russ Chappell on September 05, 2002 at 23:33:08:

Was there a reason you didn't put this appearance in-between TB #49 and #50?  
There is a gap there, of about two days, and Sean and I have been dallying 
eith the idea that Hawk ran off and touched base with the Avengers in that 
gap ... if this becomes accepted, it's not out of the realm of possibility 
that he took a side-trip with Songbird through "Hellcat" #3, leaving the 
rest of the 'Bolts to finalize their plans to infiltrate the CSA...

Just a thought.

    -Jeph!
Yes, literally every other post on the board is mine these days.  Yes, I 
should log off now.  Yes, I apologize.

			*	*	*

Hellcat heroes' appearances?
Posted by Jeph! on September 06, 2002 at 00:31:57:
In Reply to: Re: THUNDERBOLTS and HELLCAT
posted by Russ Chappell on September 05, 2002 at 23:33:08:

I'm getting annoying now, aren't I?  You can tell me.

> If you have Hellcat #2 and #3, and can suggest appropriate placement for 
all the other characters, not just Hawkeye and Songbird, I'd be glad to 
entertain your theory.

I'll give it a shot.  I only have #3, though, so if I missed any characters, 
let me know.

Songbird: between TB #49-50.

Hawkeye: between TB #49 and ASM2 #36 (or, if it's decided it's not in-
continuity, which it is, between TB #49-50.)

Wonder Man: between A3 #37-38.

Cap and the Scarlet Witch: between A3 #37 and ASM2 #36 (see above disclaimer).

The Beast:  between UX #390 (or, between W2 #176-FB, assuming the Beast was at 
Colossus' funeral) and W2 #162.

Valkyrie:  prior to D2 #4.

Namor:  prior to FF3 #42.

Moondragon:  I'm reaching here, but between CM5 #15 and FF3 #46?

Hmm.  Give those a shot.  We'll see if Paul Bourcier's upcoming calendar post 
covers this series (which it should, given that it purports to cover everything 
post-MaxSec)...

Okay, okay, I'm logging off now.  Eesh.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Hellcat heroes' appearances?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 06, 2002 at 21:24:14:
In Reply to: Hellcat heroes' appearances?
posted by Jeph! on September 06, 2002 at 00:31:57:

> Hmm.  Give those a shot.  We'll see if Paul Bourcier's upcoming calendar 
post covers this series (which it should, given that it purports to cover 
everything post-MaxSec)...

Nope (sorry).  I find it unlikely for Hawkeye to run off to appear in Hellcat 
#3 in the middle of a mission.  See my other post on this, but I place the 
Hellcat series a bit before Maximum Security so it won't be on the upcoming 
calendar.

			*	*	*

Re: Hellcat heroes' appearances?
Posted by BobMM on September 09, 2002 at 16:13:20:
In Reply to: Re: Hellcat heroes' appearances?
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 06, 2002 at 21:24:14:

> I place the Hellcat series a bit before Maximum Security so it won't be on 
the upcoming calendar.

Well that places it prior to TB #45.

My Thunderbolts chronology puts HELLCAT right between The Nefaria Protocols 
(TB #44) and the MS crossover (TB #45). That puts Hawkeye in the wrong 
costume, but opens a tiny bit of space for Patsy Walker to write her book.

Of course, I didn't try to reconcile all the other heroes' appearances, so 
I'll take Russ' word that making it all work requires opening up a gap before 
Hawkeye's arrest at the end of TB #50. 

			*	*	*

Re: Hellcat heroes' appearances?
Posted by Jeph! on September 09, 2002 at 16:52:37:
In Reply to: Re: Hellcat heroes' appearances?
posted by BobMM on September 09, 2002 at 16:13:20:

> My Thunderbolts chronology puts HELLCAT right between The Nefaria Protocols 
(TB #44) and the MS crossover (TB #45). That puts Hawkeye in the wrong 
costume, but opens a tiny bit of space for Patsy Walker to write her book.

Yeah, except that doesn't work for Wonder Man -- he's stuck in a healing tube, 
his ionic energies in flux, in that gap -- he isn't let out until into the 
MaxSec series.

> Of course, I didn't try to reconcile all the other heroes' appearances, so 
I'll take Russ' word that making it all work requires opening up a gap before 
Hawkeye's arrest at the end of TB #50. 

Or putting it before the Avengers/T-Bolts crossover -- anytime between 
TB@2001 and TB #42, I believe?

    -Jeph

::doesn't really know his T-Bolts as well as he should::

			*	*	*

Re: THUNDERBOLTS and HELLCAT
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 06, 2002 at 21:19:56:
In Reply to: Re: THUNDERBOLTS and HELLCAT
posted by Russ Chappell on September 05, 2002 at 23:33:08:

> > By the end of THUNDERBOLTS #50, Hawkeye is in custody and Songbird has 
surrendered her equipment. But the chronology places their appearance in 
HELLCAT #3 after TB #50.  Can someone please explain the rationale for 
this?

> Hawkeye & Songbird were two of about a dozen characters that make cameo 
appearances in Hellcat #3, and at the time, I felt like that placement 
actually presented the smallest problems. If you have Hellcat #2 and #3, 
and can suggest appropriate placement for all the other characters, not 
just Hawkeye and Songbird, I'd be glad to entertain your theory.

> And for the record, Songbird (and by extension, Hawkeye) appears in 
Hellcat #3 "before the end of Thunderbolts #50", not "after Thunderbolts 
#50" (examine Songbird's chronology carefully).

Given Wonder Man's history and the fact that Hawkeye's arrest in TB 50 
follows closely on the heels of Maximum Security, I place Hawkeye in Hellcat 
#3 between TB@ 2000 and TB 38.

			*	*	*

Re: THUNDERBOLTS and HELLCAT
Posted by Jeph! on September 06, 2002 at 21:32:59:
In Reply to: Re: THUNDERBOLTS and HELLCAT
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 06, 2002 at 21:19:56:

> Given Wonder Man's history and the fact that Hawkeye's arrest in TB 50 
follows closely on the heels of Maximum Security, I place Hawkeye in Hellcat 
#3 between TB@ 2000 and TB 38.

By "Wonder Man's history", I get that you're referring to his injuries during 
the Avengers/T-Bolts crossover, which persisted into MaxSec, I assume.

But, for Hawkeye's placement, surely you mean between *A3@2000* and TB 38, 
right?  I mean, as far as I knew, the T-Bolts and Avengers annuals that year, 
in that order, were lead-ins to the Hellcat mini -- and Hawkeye and Songbird 
appeared briefly in the Avengers Annual, if memory serves.

Or am I misreading you entirely?

    -Jeph!
::shakes his finger at him still ... I know what you're up to with your 9/11 
sneakiness, buddy::

			*	*	*

Zombie
Posted by Scott Hutchins on September 06, 2002 at 11:37:13:

Zombie made his first appearance in Menace #5.  Overstreet lists a higher 
prive for that issue because of that fact.  This is the color version of 
TOTZ 1/2.  It was written and drawn by Bill Everett, and Roy Thomas considered 
it the best-written and best-drawn of all of the Atlas horror stories.

			*	*	*

Here it is, folks!  Pages from the MU Calendar!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 08, 2002 at 16:03:16:

Fellow chronologists,

I humbly present the following as an attempt to incorporate a sense of the 
passage of time into our analysis of Marvel chronology for comics published 
during the last couple of years.  I'm sure I could spend days more doing 
some tweaking, adding, and adjusting, but I'm a little fried and I did 
promise you folks it would be posted this weekend.

The calendar covers the last year of Marvel time, starting just before the 
9-11 of the Marvel Universe.  And there's still room in the following July 
and August (during Asgard-on-Earth) for not-yet-published stories to appear.

The calendar is not complete.  I don't collect Hulk, Daredevil, Punisher, 
Elektra, Tangled Web, and a number of other titles, so I'll need help to 
figure out whether missing issues indeed fit into the calendar as presented 
or if they offer challenges to my placements.

The calendar is not flawless (but you guessed that already, didn't you?), and 
we'll have to deem some references as "topical" (ala Olshevsky).  Some 
conflicting references, however, are hard to ignore.  Take Senator Warkowski 
(who?) for instance (see U.S.Agent vol. 2).  Then there's the Christmas in 
IM3 50-FB and the warm weather carnival activities in winter (PPSM2 34, IM3 
51).  Arghh!  Despite these, I think the calendar works out reasonably well.  
I hope you agree.

I know you folks will pull this apart, but does it provide some kind of 
foundation on which to build a comprehensive relative and absolute 
chronology?  Or is it (sigh!) back to the drawing board?

I hope this post appears the way I formatted it, with bold and italic 
lettering making things easier to read.  If not, I can e-mail a WordPerfect 
document to those who'd like it.

Enjoy, and be merciful...

SEPTEMBER			

Maximum Security: Dangerous Planet #1 FB #3
	One day.
Maximum Security: Dangerous Planet #1 (pages 1-12)
	Perhaps the same day as the third flashback in MSDP 1 or the day 
after.  It is weeks before MSDP 1 pg. 13-15.	

X-Men: The Search for Cyclops #1
X-Men: The Search for Cyclops #2
X-Men: The Search for Cyclops #3
X-Men: The Search for Cyclops #4
	These issues span a few days.  It is months after X 98.  Cyclops 
returns from death in this series, so it must occur before his presence 
in ASM2 36.  (Coincidentally, I have Hellcat returning from the dead in TB 
00/1 just before now.)
	
Avengers Annual 2000
	One day.  Long enough after TB 00/1 for Patsy to write and publish 
a book about her life.  Given the placement of TB 00/1 between TB 37 and 38, 
the time frame established between TB 37 and 38, and the placement of HC 1-3 
after this annual and before A3 31, that leaves only several days for that 
book to hit the shelves after Patsys return from the dead.  Perhaps Patsy 
had a manuscript ready with a publisher lined up before her death and only 
had to add a new final chapter.  Even so, this would be a testimony for the 
efficiency of the publishing business in the MU!  The promotion of her book 
might sound tacky if it happened after 9-11, so I plunked it just before.

Captain America v4 #1  FB  FB
Captain America v4 #1  FB
	September 10 and 11.  This flashback occurs seven months before 
CA4 1, which occurs on Easter.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36
	A flashback issue set on September 11.  Placement of 9-11 way back 
before Maximum Security works if: 1) the Heroes charity book, showing the 
X-Treme X-Men team on the scene at 9-11 is non-canon; 2) the twin towers are 
not shown in any Marvel books listed hereafter (they are indeed in ASM2 26, 
but that occurs before now); and 3) we place Cyclops appearance here after 
The Search for Cyclops series, despite any writers purported intention to 
the contrary.  The good news: placement here is not a problem for Hawkeye.  
I wont touch on the blind Kingpin issue, as I dont collect DD2.
	Can we place this a year later?  Two potential problems with that: 
Thors classic costume appears here (and the following 9/11 would occur, 
according to my calculations, during the Thor-as-King-of-Asgard-over-Manhattan 
time period), and all comics with references to 9-11 would have to be shifted 
forward as well.  Not a good idea.
	Putting 9-11 after Search for Cyclops and before Maximum Security 
and UX 388 is the only way I can make ASM2 36 work as a canonical story.  So 
what happened to Scott after this appearance?  I suggest that, given his 
emotional state, he hung around on the fringes for a while, not participating 
in X-Men adventures (at least published ones) but managing to be intimate 
with Jean until November (five months before X 116), to buy Christmas gifts 
for teammates (XU 31/2, although he seems to have declined celebrating the 
holiday in X 109), and to attend Peters funeral (W2 176-FB).  Just because 
no one was shown as concerned about Scotts status in issues of X and UX 
during this time doesnt mean they werent expressing concern between issues.  
And I dont believe anyone expressed a belief that Scott was dead during this 
time.
	Whaddaya say, folks?  I think Jeph has warmed up to this idea...

X-Men Forever #1
X-Men Forever #2
X-Men Forever #3
X-Men Forever #4
X-Men Forever #5
X-Men Forever #6 (page 1-page 33, panel 1)
	These issues occur over the course of a day (although the main 
characters do some time traveling).  It is a week before XMF 6 pg. 33, pn. 
2-5, two weeks before XMF 6 pg. 34, three weeks before XMF 6 pg. 35, and 
four weeks before XMF 6 pg. 36.

Hellcat #1
Hellcat #2
Hellcat #3
	HC 1-3 occur during one night with a full moon, after A 00.  This 
series cannot occur between A3 34 and MAXSEC 1, since Simon is in a 
restorative tank during that time, and it cannot occur after MAXSEC 1, since 
there is no time between then and Clints incarceration in TB 50 for this 
story to happen.  Simon must appear here before his reported absence in A3 
31, and since Beast is here too, I propose that HC 1-3 occur a week before A3 
31.

Hulk Annual 2000
	One day and the next day.  She-Hulk hasnt left the Avengers yet and 
Wonder Man is not present.  I place this annual sometime between A3 30 and 
31, perhaps during the week between HC 3 and A3 31.

X-Men Forever #6 (page 33, panels 2-5)
	One day, a week after XMF 6 pg. 1-33.  Jean and Iceman are here 
and appear next in Maximum Security crossovers.

Spider-Man Annual 2000/2 (end)
	One day, weeks after the beginning of this story.

Avengers v3 #31
	One day.  The Beast reports that Wonder Man has been missing for 
almost a week. The suggestion here is that Hank and Simon last hung out 
together in Avengers Two, but it is possible they decided to chum around 
following HC 3, and it is HC 3 that occurred a week before this issue.  It 
is after IM 00 and a few days before A3 32.  I place this story between 
H 00 and  TB 42.

Thunderbolts #38
	A school day, three weeks after the flashback within a flashback 
in TB 37 FB, so its probably a little more than two weeks after TB 37.  This 
issue must occur after HC 3.  Green grass and trees.

Thunderbolts #39
	Same day as TB 38.
Thunderbolts #61 FB
	Same day as TB 39.
Thunderbolts #59  FB (page 13, panels 1-3)
	Same day as TB 39; shortly before TB 59 FB pg. 13-14;
Thunderbolts #40
	Same day as TB 39.  Full moon.
Thunderbolts #41
	Same night as TB 40.  Full moon.
Thunderbolts #42
	One day, perhaps the day after TB 41.  This issue must occur after 
A3 31 and it is a few days before A3 32.

Maximum Security: Dangerous Planet #1 (page 13, page 1-page 15, panel 2)
	One day, weeks after MSDP 1 pg. 1-12.  It is days before MSDP 1 
pg. 15-21.

Fantastic Four v3 #35
Fantastic Four v3 #36
	FF3 35-36 occur during one day.  These issues happen after the 
summer story in FF3 33-34 and (according to Russ) between the end of PPSM 
00/2 and ASM2 22.

X-Men Forever #6 (page 34)
	One day.  Juggernaut appears here two weeks after XMF 6 pg. 1-33.

Avengers v3 #32
	One day, a few days after TB 42 and A3 31.  This issue must occur 
after CA3 31, H 00, and BP3 23.  IM 99 is referred to as having occurred 
recently.
Thunderbolts #43  FB
	Same day as A3 32.
Thunderbolts #43
	Same day as A3 32 and TB 42.  It is months after Av 399.
Avengers v3 #33
	Same day as TB 43.  Green grass and trees in New Jersey.  Full moon.
Thunderbolts #44
	Same night as A3 33.  Green trees in Alberta.  Full moon.
Avengers v3 #34
	Same night as TB 44, sometime before MAXSEC 1.  It is weeks before 
TB 47.  Full moon.
Thunderbolts #45  FB
	Same night as A3 34.  It is three weeks before TB 45.

Gambit v2 #25	
	One night and a few days later.  Full moon.

Thor v2 #28
Thor v2 #29
	T2 28-29 occurs during one day.  We see outdoor swimming weather 
wherever the Wrecking Crew is.

Avengers Infinity #1
Avengers Infinity #2
Avengers Infinity #3
Avengers Infinity #4
	AI 1-4 occur during one day, which Im inclined to believe is the 
day after T2 28-29.

Maximum Security: Dangerous Planet #1 (page 15, panel 3-page 21, panel 2)
	Same day as AI 1.  It is days after MSDP 1 pg. 13-15 and a few 
days before MSDP 1 pg. 21-22.

OCTOBER

X-Men v2 #106
	One day during a presidential campaign season.

Maximum Security: Dangerous Planet #1 (page 21, panel 3-page 22, panel 6)
	One day.  It is a few days after MSDP 1 pg. 15-21 and five days 
before the start of MSDP 1 pg. 23-40.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #35
	This issue occurs during the span of a few days, all of which are 
elementary school days.  The real Spidey doesnt appear in this issue, 
meaning that its placement can be adjusted easily.  It doesnt need to occur 
between PPSM2 34 and 36.  There are green grass and trees in New York, 
though, so Id say its before autumn leaves appear.

X-Men Forever #6 (page 35)
	One day.  The Toad appears here three weeks after XMF 6 pg. 1-33.

Maximum Security: Dangerous Planet #1 (pages 23-40)
	One day and the next day, beginning five days after MSDP 1 pg. 21-22.
Maximum Security: Dangerous Planet #1  FB #2: beginning
	Day after the end of MSDP 1 pg. 23-40.

Captain Marvel v5 #12 (beginning)
	One day, shortly before the end of CM5 12.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #22 (pages 1-11)
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #26  FB #4
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #22 (pages 12-22)
	One day, before SM:RGG 1 pg. 16-22.  This battle between Spidey and 
Sandman is referred to as having occurred the other week in PPSM2 26.

Maximum Security #1 FB #2: end
	One day, not long after the beginning of this flashback.  It is two 
weeks before Gam2 23.

Spider-Man: Revenge of the Green Goblin #1 (pages 16-22)
	One rainy day, after PPSM2 22.
	
Maximum Security #2  FB
	One day, between MSDP 1 pg. 23-40 and T2 30.

Deadpool v2 #44
	One day.  It is after IM 00.  We see green grass and trees.

Black Panther v3 #23
	Occurring on a Saturday, I place this the day after DP2 44.  This 
issue occurs during the year before BP3 42.

Iron Man v3 #33
	Probably the same night as BP3 23 and the next day.  It is shortly 
after IM 00.  It is also after the end of the flashback within a flashback 
in IM3 35.

Iron Man v3 #34
	The same night as the end of IM3 33 end.  Full moon.

Black Panther v3 #24 (beginning)
	Probably the day after BP3 23.  It is probably the same day as IM3 
34.  TChalla is way over 30.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #22
	Probably the same night as IM3 34 and the next morning.  It is a 
few weeks after ASM2 12.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #23
	Probably the same day as the end of ASM2 22.  It is after Spider-Man: 
Return of the Green Goblin #1 pg. 16-22, but is it before issue #2 of that 
series?.  It is fifteen years after the flashbacks in this issue.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #24 (beginning)
	The same day as ASM2 23.

Maximum Security #1
	Probably the same day as the beginning of ASM2 24.  It is probably 
day after IM3 34.  This issue occurs after A3 34 and the end of the second 
flashback in this issue.  It is long enough after the first flashback for 
U.S.Agent to settle into his new assignment.  Spideys appearance here must 
be a new scene, not a tape of his encounter with aliens in ASM2 24, judging 
by the setting and the slightly different appearance of the Badoon in this 
issue from the aliens in ASM2 24.  Spidey may appear here while on his way 
home from the encounter in ASM2 24.

Thor v2 #30
	The same day as MAXSEC 1.  It is after MAXSEC 2FB.  Since MAXSEC 1 
occurs after the MSDP 1 pg. 23-40, which occurs a week or so after AI, which 
in turn follows T2 29, then Malekith must have waited more than a week to 
release the might of the Casket of Ancient Winters.  Why?  Who knows with 
a lunatic like Malekith?

Iron Man v3 #35
	It must be the same day as MAXSEC 1.  It is a few hours  probably 
the day after  IM3 34.  We see green grass and trees in Nebraska.

Black Panther v3 #24 (end)
	The day after the beginning of BP3 24.  It must be the same day as 
IM3 35.

Black Panther v3 #25  FB
	The same day as BP3 24 and IM3 35.  It is more than a year after 
BP3 1.

Black Panther v3 #25 (beginning)
	The same day as BP3 25FB.  It is before UX 387.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #24 (end)
	The same night as the beginning of ASM2 24.  It must occur before 
PPSM2 23.

Uncanny X-Men #386
	Probably the same night as the end of ASM2 24.  This story occurs 
during hurricane season, and late enough for a hurricane named Sam.  Jean 
appears here after XMF 6.

Uncanny X-Men #387
	Probably the day after UX 386.  It is after the beginning of BP3 25 
and months after the beginning of UX 379.

Black Panther v3 #25 (end)
	The same day as UX 387.  It is long enough after the beginning of 
BP3 25 for TChalla to change Wakandas monetary standard, return nationalized 
assets, and force a State Department hearing.  A day should do it, dontcha 
think? ;)

Black Panther v3 #26
	The same day as BP3 25 end.  We see snow in Wakanda, which I would 
say is certainly possible in October.

Black Panther v3 #27
	The same day as BP3 26.  We see green grass and trees in DC.

Bishop: The Last X-Man #15
	Probably the same day as the end of BP3 25.  It is after UX 387 and  
before MAXSEC 2 and X 107.

Captain Marvel v5 #12 (end)
	Probably the same day as BTLXM 15.  It is shortly after the beginning 
of CM5 12.

Captain Marvel v5 #13
	The same day as CMIV 12 end.  This issue must occur before TB 45.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #23 (beginning)
	Probably the same day as CM5 13.  This must occur after the end of 
ASM2 24 end.

Thunderbolts #45
	It must be the same day as CM5 13.  It is three weeks after TB 
45-FB and two days before TB 46.  The scenes shown on Technos screens 
must be pre-recorded.

Captain America v3 #36
	The same night as TB 45.  It is after MAXSEC 1.  Full moon.

Maximum Security #2
	The same night as CA3 36, TB 45, CM5 12, and BTLXM 15.  It is before 
A3 35.  The Avengers screens must be showing recorded scenes that occurred 
recently, especially since Genis should be on the moon at this point.  
Chronological analysis suggests that Iron Man, the FF, and the Surfer have 
been dealing with Ego for a day or so.

U.S.Agent v2 #3  FB
	One day.  This flashback featuring the Power Broker occurs sometime 
during Maximum Security.  I just stuck it here.

Hulk v3 #21
	Probably the day after MAXSEC 2.

Avengers v3 #35
	Also probably the day after MAXSEC 2.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #23 (end)
	The day after the beginning of PPSM2 23.  It must be after the end 
of ASM2 24.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #24
	Same night as the end of PPSM2 23.

Marvel Knights #1
Marvel Knights #2
Marvel Knights #3
	MK 1-3 occur during one night.

X-Men v2 #107  FB
	One day.  It is after UX 387.

X-Men v2 #107
	Same day as X 107-FB.  It is after BTLXM 15 and a few weeks before 
UX 390.  Full moon.

X-Men Unlimited #29
	Same day as X 107.  It is probably the day after A3 35.  We see green 
grass and trees in New York.

Gambit v2 #23
	Probably the same day as XU 29.  It is two weeks after the end of 
the second flashback in MAXSEC 1.

Gambit v2 #24
	Same day as Gam2 23.  Green trees are shown.

Marvel Knights #4
	Probably the same night as XU 29 and Gam2 23.  It is probably the 
night of the day after MK 3.

Marvel Knights #5
Marvel Knights #6
	MK 5-6 occur the same night as MK 5.  Both issues show a full moon.

Maximum Security #3 (beginning)
	Probably the day after MK 6, XU 29, and Gam2 24.  It is a week 
before the end of MAXSEC 3 end.

Thunderbolts #46
	It must be same day as the beginning of MAXSEC 3.  It is supposed to 
be two days after TB 45, but may actually be three days after.

Thunderbolts #47 (including internal flashback)
	This issue, which includes an internal flashback, occurs on the same 
day as TB 46.  It is weeks after A3 34.

Thunderbolts #48 (beginning)
	Same day as TB 47.  It is days after TB 45.  Full moon.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #26  FB #1
	One night.  With the full moon shown, I place it here.  Someone in 
the main story in PPSM2 26 refers to this flashback as having occurred the 
other day.

Marvel Knights #7
	Probably night of the day after MK 6.  There are snow  flurries in 
New York.  This may be the beginning of the snowstorm in T2 31.

Marvel Knights #8
Marvel Knights #9
	MK 8-9 occur the same night as MK 7.

Thor v2 #31
Thor v2 #32 (all but last page)
	Given the snow flurries of MK 7, I place T2 31-32 later on the night 
of MK 7-9.  Given that the end of T2 32 leads up to the death of Odin, Thor 
must make his many appearances in other titles during a gap between the last 
two pages of issue #32.  In T2 31, Jake Olson remarks that it is too early 
for snow in New York, and indeed, the snow is the result of the casket of 
ancient winters.  In T2 31, Hogun is recovered from the grave injuries he 
sustained in T2 29, which I estimate occurred about a month earlier.

Thunderbolts #52  FB
	It is either the same day as the beginning of TB 48 beg or day after.  
This flashback occurs between the beginning of TB 48 and TB 49.

Thunderbolts #48 (end)
	Day after the beginning of TB 48.
			
Thunderbolts #49
	Same day as the end of TB 48; I dont place a gap between TB 48 and 
49.  After TB 59 FB pg. 13-14.  

Thunderbolts #50 (including flashbacks and epilog #1)
	Same day as TB 49.

Thunderbolts #50 (epilog #2)
	Day after TB 50.  For reasons elaborated below, I would insert a gap 
of a few months between epilogs 2 and 3 in TB 50, during which time pardons 
are secured for the Thunderbolts and the Redeemer program is reevaluated in 
Citizen Vs absence.  You know, those bureaucratic wheels turn slowly.

Wolverine v2 #156
Wolverine v2 #157
	W2 156-157 occur during one day.  Placement here between MAXSEC 3 and 
SM:MM 1 is based on Russ work.

Fantastic Four v3 #37
	One day, after MAXSEC 3.  Warm weather in New York.

Spider-Man: The Mysterio Manifesto #1
Spider-Man: The Mysterio Manifesto #2
Spider-Man: The Mysterio Manifesto #3
	SM:MM 1-3 occur during one day, a few months after ASM2 13.

Black Panther v3 #28
Black Panther v3 #29
Black Panther v3 #30  FB #2
	BP3 28-29 and the second flashback in BP3 30 occur during one day.  
In BP3 28, BP3 27 is referred to as having occurred the other day and it is 
years after Def 84.

Spider-Man: Revenge of the Green Goblin #2
Spider-Man: Revenge of the Green Goblin #3
	These two issues span three days and occur before ASM2 25.  It is a 
few years after ASM 248.  Figured it was appropriate to put a Goblin story 
on Halloween, although theres no reference to the holiday in the comic.

NOVEMBER

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #25
	One night and into early the next morning.  This issue occurs after 
SM:RGG 3.  It ends two days before PPSM2 25 and weeks before ASM3 27.

Maximum Security #3 (end)
	One day, a week after MAXSEC 3 beg.  It is shortly before A3 36 and 
before the flashbacks in USA2 1.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #25
	One rainy night, two days after the end of ASM2 25, during which 
time Spidey has been Normans prisoner.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #26
	The same night as PPSM2 25, the next day, and the day after that.  It 
must be more than just a couple of weeks after PPSM2 16.  Bare trees.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #26
	One day.  Spidey doesnt appear here, but the first flashback, in 
which he does appear, is referenced as having occurred the other day and 
the fourth flashback, in which he appears as well, is referenced as having 
occurred the other week.

Uncanny X-Men #388
Cable v2 #87
Bishop: The Last X-Man #16
X-Men v2 #108
	These issues cover a span of three days  the final days of a 
presidential election season.  The death of Moira MacTaggert.  Mystique is 
here after XMF 6 pg. 36.

Marvel Knights #10
	One day, shortly after MK 9.

Captain Marvel v5 #14
	One day.

Generation X #74 (pages 1-4)
Generation X #72 (pages 1-4)
Generation X #71 (pages 1-6)
Generation X #73 (pages 1-7)
Generation X #71 (page 7)
Generation X #72 (pages 5-6)
Generation X #71 (pages 8-18)
Generation X #72 (pages 7-20)
Generation X #73 (pages 8-18)
Generation X #74 (pages 5-6)
Generation X #73 (pages 19-22)
Generation X #74 (pages 8-17)
Generation X #71 (pages 19-20)
Generation X #72 (pages 21-22)
Generation X #71 (pages 21-22)
Generation X #74 (pages 18-22)
	These four issues occur during the course of a day shortly after 
Moiras death in X 108.  Kudos to Jeph for untangling the chronology here.  
There are many indications that it is an autumn day.

Uncanny X-Men #389  FB #1
	The day of Moiras funeral.  It is a raw and bitter day in Scotland 
with snow on the ground.  I think Jeph made a point that Cable and Jean arent 
here because of their involvement in the Search for Cyclops series.  If 
Cyclops appearance in ASM2 36 forces us to bring Scott back before 9-11, 
then that cant be right.  Besides, who says Cable and Jean arent at the 
funeral?  Just because theyre not on panel doesnt mean theyre not there.  
To quote Jeph himself, Lack of proof of one thing does not equal positive 
proof of the opposite thing. ;)

Cable v2 #88
	I have this issue starting the same day as Moiras funeral, with 
snow in Scotland. That would support my theory about Cable actually attending 
the funeral, then lingering after.  And with Storms presence here, its 
easier to deal with than having Storm leave and return to Scotland later to 
be with Cable.  The issue ends forty-eight hours later. 

Captain Marvel v5 #15
Captain Marvel v5 #16
	CM5 15-16 occur during one day.

Wolverine v2 #158
	I dont have this issue, but Im going with Russ and Jeph on placement 
here.  Temporal references anyone?  (By the way, Jeph, I believe Gambit v2 #24 
follows from issue #23 and should be placed right after it.)

Uncanny X-Men #389
	One day shortly after UX 389FB #1.

X-Men Unlimited #33/6
	One day.  Again Im going with Jephs placement here.

Wolverine v2 #159
Wolverine v2 #160
Wolverine v2 #161
	I dont have these issues, so Im relying on Jeph again.  Temporal 
clues?

Captain Marvel v5 #17
Captain Marvel v5 #18
Captain Marvel v5 #19
	CM5 17-19 occur during one day.  Thor makes the first of his many 
guest appearances between the last two pages of T2 32 here.  Old, one-armed 
Rick emerges from this storyline. There is snow in Norway.	

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #27
	One night, weeks after ASM2 25.  Bare trees in New York.

Uncanny X-Men Annual 2000 (part 1)
	One day and the next.  It is Thanksgiving, so I place this before 
the Christmas story in X 109.

Avengers v3 #37  FB
Avengers v3 #36
Avengers v3 #37
	A3 36-37 occur during one day and the morning after, six weeks 
before A3 38.  A3 36 shows bare trees and no snow; A3 37 shows light snow 
falling.  Perhaps November 23-24.

Uncanny X-Men Annual 2000 (part 2)
	One night.  There are thirty shopping days till Christmas, so it 
must be November 24 (and so, again, before X 109).  We see the first snow 
of the season, which may be the same snow we see start to fall in A3 37.  
This would also mean that the unnaturally early snow released by the casket 
of ancient winters in T2 31 occurs before this point.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #27
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #28
	One night.  These issues occur before ASM2 28.

Iron Man v3 #37  FB
	One night.  Green trees in upstate New York.

Iron Man v3 #38  FB
	IM3 38-FB occurs the same night as IM3 37-FB and the span of a few 
days afterward.  Green grass and trees.

Iron Man v3 #39  FB
Iron Man v3 #40  FB
Iron Man v3 #37
Iron Man v3  #38
Iron Man v3  #39
Iron Man v3 #40 (beginning)
	Everything from IM3 39-FB through IM 40 beginning occurs the same 
day as the end of IM3 38-FB.  We see bare trees and snow in New York City in 
IM3 39-FB; this may be the snowfall of A3 37 and UX 00 pt. 2.  Considering 
the green of upstate in IM38-FB, it must be early in the winter weather 
season and apparently downstate was hit with the white stuff first.  It is 
a few weeks before IM3 40 end.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #28
	One day.  It is after PPSM2 28 and almost six months after ASM2 13.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #29
	The same night as ASM2 28.  Full moon.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #29
	The same rainy night as ASM 29.  This issue occurs a week before 
ASM 01.

Captain Marvel v5 #20
Captain Marvel v5 #21
	CM5 20-21 occur during a span of two days.  Rick is transported back 
to Avengers Forever during issue #20.

DECEMBER

Captain America v3 #37
Captain America v3 #38
	CA3 37-38 occur during one day, a few days before CA3 39 and weeks 
before CA3 41.  Snow is seen in both issues.	

Amazing Spider-Man Annual 2001
	One day and early the next morning, a week after PPSM2 29.  Peter 
and M.J. separate.  Aunt May makes a remark about Anna Watson accidentally 
voting for the wrong person (unnamed) instead of Al Gore.  This, and the 
reference to chads, are obviously nods to the real-world presidential 
election of 2000, and suggest that this story occurs after the November 
election.

Uncanny X-Men Annual 2000 (part 3)
	One night.  There are twenty shopping days till Christmas, so it 
must be December 4.  Snow and full moon.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #30
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #31
	ASM2 30-31 occur over the course of two days.  During the second 
day (ASM2 31), Peter Parker gets a job substitute teaching at his old high 
school.  Its a school day there.  This story obviously occurs after Peter 
and M.J. split up (ASM 01) and before PPSM2 30.  Full moon.

X-Men v2 #111  FB
	One day several weeks before X 111.  Quicksilver is cast out of 
Genosha by Magneto.  This expulsion may have nothing to do with Magnetos 
plans after the Legacy Virus is cured.  Pietros role as freedom fighter 
probably finally just ticked Magnus off.  There is certainly enough time after 
Dark Seduction for Pietro to have grown a beard.

Captain America v3 #39  FB
Captain America v3 #39
	Both the flashback and main body of this issue occur one day, a few 
days after CA3 38.  Bare trees, and snow.  The full moon may be the same as 
that in UX 00 pt. 3.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #30
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #31
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #32
	PPSM2 30-32 occur during the course of a day, after ASM2 31.  (I 
propose that PPSM2 33 is a flashback issue that should be placed during 
the preceding May, as it marks the anniversary of Ben Parkers death.  The 
May date is given by the Official Marvel Index to the Amazing Spider-Man #1.  
Its corroborated by the fact that its baseball season.  No references 
require issue #33 to occur after #32.)

Uncanny X-Men Annual 2000 (part 4)
	One day; days before UX000 pt. 5. There are ten shopping days till 
Christmas, so it must be December 14.  Snow.

Hulk v3 #24
Hulk v3 #25
	I dont collect H2, but its been reported that these two issues 
occur over the course of one or two days and that snow is present.  Im just 
placing them here to point out that the snow could be natural and not the 
result of the casket of ancient winters in T31.

Iron Man v3 #40 (end)
	One day, a few weeks after the beginning of IM3 40.

Defenders v2 #1 (pages 1-3)
	One day three weeks before Def2 1.

Defenders v2 #2  FB
	One day a few weeks before Def2 2.

Uncanny X-Men Annual 2000 (part 5)
	One day, days after UX 2000 pt. 4.  Before Cable cuts his ties to 
the X-Men in C2 92 and probably before the Dark Sisterhood storyline begins 
in C2 89.

Cable v2 #89
	One day, probably after UX 00 pt. 5.

Cable v2 #90
Cable v2 #91  FB
Cable v2 #92  FB #1
Cable v2 #92  FB #2
Cable v2 #92  FB #4
	Cable cuts his ties to the X-Men in C2 92FB #2.  C2 90, the 
flashbacks in C2 91, and all flashbacks in C2 92 except the third one occur 
one day, seven days before C2 91 and two weeks before C2 92.

Cable v2 #92  FB #5
Cable v2 #93  FB
	One day, also two weeks before C2 92 and weeks before C2 93.  
College is in session.

Cable v2 #94  FB
	The same night as C2 93-FB and the day after.  It is weeks before 
C2 94.  Rachel leaves college, perhaps just before the holiday break.  The 
green grass and trees at Rachels college may be normal for the location, 
which I assume is southern California, thousands of miles from Chicago.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #34
	One day.  Peter has to grade papers that are due Friday, so school 
is in session.  Theres a funfair in New York, with green grass and trees.  
This issue cannot occur out of continuity, so we need an explanation for the 
existence of this warm weather event at this point in the calendar.  Should 
this have been rendered as a holiday fair?  Can anyone come up with a solution 
(within the context of calendar placement) that would allow us to accept the 
event as depicted, complete with operating carnival and light clothing?

Captain Marvel v5 #22
Captain Marvel v5 #23
Captain Marvel v5 #24
Captain Marvel v5 #25
	CM 22-25 occur during one day.  Its almost Christmas in CM5 25.

X-Treme X-Men #3  FB #2
	The second flashback in this issue must occur before X 109.

X-Men Unlimited #31/2
	One day just before Christmas.  There is snow.  I have Cyclops back 
from presumed death by this point (just not officially returned to the X-Men), 
so it is possible to have him shopping for presents here.  And the cane for 
Kurt doesnt necessarily mean that Kurt was injured  remember, Kurts a 
showman!

Captain Marvel v5 #26  FB
Captain Marvel v5 #26
	Both flashback and main body occur during one day during the Christmas 
season.  The temperature drops from 61 degrees to less than 49 degrees and 
there is snow.  Rick gets his arm and youth back on what may be Christmas 
Eve.	

X-Men v2 #109
	It is Christmas Eve of a holiday weekend.  The X-Treme team forms 
here, but Colossus death postpones their departure until G&B 1FB.  There is  
snow in New York and Japan.  The full moon here is inconsistent with that in 
UX 00 pt. 3, as only twenty days separate the two scenes.

Captain America v3 #50/1
	This first story occurs on Christmas Eve and into Christmas Day.  
There is snow.

Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
	Sad to day, I dont have this comic.  I recall leafing through it 
in the store and noting that Justice and Firestar were visiting Avengers 
mansion sometime after their departure in A3 25.  I also noted it as going 
before IM3  for some reason.  Those of you who do have this issue: does it 
make sense to place it here  the same Christmas as CA3 50/1 and between A37 
and 38?  And whats up with IM3 ?

Cable v2 #91
	One night, seven days after the flashbacks in C2 91.

Cable v2 #92  FB #3
	The day after C2 91, one week before C2 92.

Uncanny X-Men #390
	This issue, featuring the day of Colossus death, must occur right 
after his appearance in X 109.  Cables absence suggests that this issue 
occurs after he cuts his ties to the X-Men in C2 92FB #2.  It is probably 
more than a few weeks after XMII 107 and must certainly be a few days 
after XMII 108.  The green grass and apparent warm weather in New York of 
this issue is inconsistent with that holiday setting of X 109.

Wolverine v2 #176  FB
	Colossus funeral.  Cyclops appears here although he hasnt officially 
returned to the X-Men yet.	

X-Men Unlimited #30/2
	One day shortly after UX 390.  Bare trees and crescent moon.

X-Treme X-Men #3  FB #2
	One day.  Rogue, Psylocke and Thunderbird are wearing their red 
X-Treme costumes, so this training session must occur between UX 390 and XX 
2-FB.

X-Treme X-Men #2  FB
Gambit and Bishop #1  FB
	One day shortly after X 109 and a week before G&B 1.  The X-Treme 
team leave the mansion.  I left a huge time gap between now and XX 1.

X-Force #114
	One day, six months after XFO 113, which I place in June before 
the elections mentioned earlier (Kelly is noted as running for president in 
XFO 110).  Full moon.

Gambit and Bishop: Alpha #1
Gambit and Bishop #1
Gambit and Bishop #2
Gambit and Bishop #3
Gambit and Bishop #4
Gambit and Bishop #5
Gambit and Bishop #6
	This series takes place over the course of two days a week after 
G&B 1FB.  A full moon is seen throughout the series.  This may be the next 
full moon after UX 00 pt. 3.  I suggest that the Beast sticks around the 
mansion for a short while before joining the X-Treme team, long enough to 
appear on the TV in X 111, then in W2 162-166.

X-Force #115  FB
	The flashbacks in this issue occur on one day, two days after XFO 
114 and six months after XFO 113.

JANUARY

Cable v2 #92
	One day.  It is one week after C2 92FB #3 and two weeks after the 
other flashbacks in C2 92.

X-Force #115
	One day, shortly after the flashbacks in this issue.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #36
	One day and the next day.  Spidey is not in this issue, and there 
arent many clues about placement.

Uncanny X-Men #391
	One weekend day.

X-Men v2 #110
	One day and a few days later.  Kitty Pryde enrolls as a freshman in 
college, so the holiday vacation is over and its probably the first week of 
January.  The green grass and trees in Chicago may be topical.

Unlimited X-Men #30/4
	One day between X 111-FB #2 and X 111.  The green grass and trees 
must be topical.

X-Men v2 #111
Uncanny X-Men #392
X-Men v2 #112
Uncanny X-Men #393
X-Men v2 #113
	These five issues chronicle the Eve of Destruction storyline that 
takes place over the course of two days, several weeks after X 111-FB.  
(Jephs other flashback in X 111, with the televised Beast, I place the 
same day as X 111.)  Since Quicksilver is reported to be planning to return 
to the Avengers, this storyline occurs between XU 30/4 and A3 38.  A comment 
made in W2 162 suggests that this storyline occurs before W2 162.

Avengers v3 #38
Avengers v3 #39
Avengers v3 #40
	Occurring during one day six weeks after A3 37, A3 38 occurs in 
winter, but it features unseasonably warm and sunny weather in New York.  
If the snow in A3 37 is the same first snow shown in UX 01 pt. 2, then it is 
now the first week of January.  Thor returns to the Avengers after an absence 
and appears next with them in FF3 39. 

Cable v2 #93
	One day and the next day, weeks after C2 93FB and at least a week 
before C2 94.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #37
	It's snowing absurdly hard and theres wind chill of -50 degrees.  
Schools are closed because of the storm, so this story does not occur during 
the holiday/new year break.

Fantastic Four v3 #38
Fantastic Four v3 #39
Fantastic Four v3 #40
Fantastic Four v3 #41
Fantastic Four v3 #42
Fantastic Four v3 #43
Fantastic Four v3 #44
	Id say that FF3 38-44 occur over the course of two days.  Thors 
appearance with the Avengers in FF3 39 suggests that these issues occur after 
A3 38-40.

Thunderbolts #50 (epilogs 3 and 4)
	One day and two days later.  Cap assumes responsibility for leading 
the Redeemers program, which he does part-time until TB 54.  This commitment 
does not prevent him from having adventures outside the program.  See below 
for the reason I put a continuity break between epilogs 2 and 3 of TB 50.  
During that time, the V-Battalion is undertaking an investigation, pardons 
are being processed for the Thunderbolts, SHIELD is determining the future 
of the Redeemer program, and Hawkeye sits in stir while the legal wheels turn 
for his imprisonment.

Avengers: Celestial Quest #1
Avengers: Celestial Quest #2
Avengers: Celestial Quest #3 
Avengers: Celestial Quest #4
Avengers: Celestial Quest #5 
Avengers: Celestial Quest #6
Avengers: Celestial Quest #7 
Avengers: Celestial Quest #8 
	According to Tom Brevoort, this series occurs between A3 40 and 41.  
These eight issues occur over the course of a couple of days.  It is supposed 
to be five years after A 128, but it must be quite a bit longer.

Cable v2 #94
	One day.  It is weeks after C2 94FB and at least a week after C2 
93.

Cable v2 #95
	The day after C2 94.  The end of the Dark Sisterhood storyline.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #38
	One day.  It looks like warm weather here, perhaps one of those 
winter mild spells that frequently hit the northeast.

Iron Man v3 #41
	One day.  The introduction of Iron Mans retro armor puts this issue 
after A3 40.  It is a few short weeks before IM3 42.  Coney Island is shown 
as being open  in January??  Maybe its the same warm spell as shown in PPSM2 
38.

Fantastic Four Annual 2001/1
	One day.  Namorita appears.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #39
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #40
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #41
	PPSM2 39-41 occur over the course of two days, as much time as 
possible before ASM2 43.  The first day is a school day.

Avengers v3 #41
	This issue must occur between the time Stark gave up his company in 
IM3 41 and before he adopts the Hogan Potts identity in IM3 42.  Kang also 
blows up the UN building.

Avengers v3 #42 
	A3 41-42 occur on a weekend day, perhaps Saturday.

Fantastic Four v3 #46
	Here, we have a reference to the UN having just blown up, and the 
dumped Galactus head from FF 01 is being removed.  Namorita makes an 
appearance.  The Silver Surfers appearance here is easier to place before 
the Yandroth curse of Def2 1  one argument for putting these FF issues 
before Def2 2.  Franklin returns home from Haven.

Fantastic Four v3 #47 
Fantastic Four v3 #48 
Fantastic Four v3 #49
	FF3 46-49 probably occur during the course of a day, the same day as 
A3 41-42, and perhaps the day after FF 01.  The Invisible Woman becomes 
pregnant and is nearly full-term. Galactus returns to the Marvel continuum. 
Namorita makes another appearance.

Avengers v3 #43
	A3 43 continues directly from A3 42 and so occurs the same day as 
FF3 47-49.  Given Namoritas chronology, Attuma only appears to rule Atlantis 
in this issue.  My theory is that he has taken command of some rebel Atlantean 
forces and may be trying to pit the surface world against Atlantis while Namor 
still rules it.  After Attumas troops are defeated here, the Avengers resolve 
to contact Namor to find out whats going on, and Attuma regroups and goes for 
a frontal assault on Atlantis, as shown in Def2 2.

Avengers v3 #44 (beginning)
	This segment continues directly from A3 43.

Avengers Annual 2001/1
	Same night as A3 44 beginning and early into the next morning.  Hank 
Pym is cured of his multiple personalities.  Full moon.

Avengers v3 #44 (end)
	Specifically occurs right after A 01 (the same morning). Pym appears 
in his Goliath uniform.

Fantastic Four Annual 2001/2
	One day, shortly after Franklins return in FF3 46-49.

X-Force #117  FB #6
	One day, some time before XFO 116FB.  We see the earliest depiction 
of a Morrison-era yellow-and-black leather X-Men outfit, on Prof. X.

Wolverine v2 #162
Wolverine v2 #163
Wolverine v2 #164
Wolverine v2 #165
Wolverine v2 #166
	I dont have these issues, so Im going from Jephs notes that the 
Beast appears here and is badly wounded.  Given the reference made here to 
the Eve of Destruction storyline, I suggest that he delayed joining his 
teammates in X-Treme.  Wolvie loses an eye.  Anyone have temporal references 
for these issues?

Fantastic Four v3 #50/1
	Namorita appears, as does She-Hulk.  One day  the anniversary of 
the Fantastic Four, which would place this story in the same month as FF 1 
and FF 296 (and that means Ill need to do some recalculating).  We see green 
trees and warm weather in New York, but these must be topical.

Defenders v2 #1 (pages 4 on)
	Iron Mans retro armor places this after IM3 41, and given the 
Surfers appearance in FF3 46-49, Id place this after A3 44.  The big four 
Defenders get cursed by Yandroth.  It is one day, three weeks after Def2 1 
pg. 1-3.

Defenders v2 #2
	This issue likely occurs shortly after Def2 1, as this is the first 
time the curse is activated.  Namorita gets captured by Attuma, so I place 
this issue after her appearances through FF3 50/1.  It is unlikely that she 
escapes Attuma and hangs out with the FF without trying to get the FF to help 
her take Atlantis back, and no reference to the plight of Atlantis is made in 
FF.  Thus my theory about Attuma under A3 43 above.  It is a few weeks after 
the flashback in this issue and at least a few months after the end of 
Nighthawk #3.  It cannot be months before Def2 11, although it may seem 
like that to Namor; Attuma does rule Atlantis for several weeks, though.

Defenders v2 #3		
	The same night as Def2 2, and six months after the flashback in 
this issue.

Defenders v2 #4
	The same night as Def2 3.  Namor must appear here before USA2 2, 
since Attuma rules Atlantis during the USA2 series.

Infinity Abyss #1
Infinity Abyss #2
Infinity Abyss #3
Infinity Abyss #4
Infinity Abyss #5
Infinity Abyss #6
	IA 1-6 occur over the course of eighteen hours.  According to Tom 
Brevoort, this series occurs between A3 40 and 41 and after Celestial Quest.  
The appearance of the cursed Defenders places the series after Def2 4, so that 
means that Id put Captain Marvel here after FF3 46.  Green grass and trees 
are seen in upstate New York in this series, but this must be topical.

Deadline #2  FB
	One day about three months before Deadline #2.

Citizen V and the V-Battalion #1
Thunderbolts #51
Citizen V and the V-Battalion #2
Thunderbolts #52
Citizen V and the V-Battalion #3 (beginning)
Thunderbolts: Life Sentences
Citizen V and the V-Battalion #3 (end)
	These issues occur over the course of a few days, all told.  
References in both CVATVB and TB place these issues one week after the 
epilogs of TB 50, but I propose that the week only applies to epilogs 3 and 
4 of TB 50.  Epilog 1 occurs the same day as TB 50; epilog 2 occurs the next 
day; then a few months must intervene before epilog 3 (not given a time 
reference) occurs; then epilog 4 occurs two days after that.  The gap is 
necessitated by the fact that Attuma has taken over Atlantis (explicitly 
referenced in CVATVB 2), so these issues must occur after Def2 2, which 
occurs after Def2 1, which must occur after the retro-armor appears in IM3 
41, which in turn occurs after A3 38-40.  Theres a full moon in TB:LS, which 
occurs a couple of weeks before TB 54.

U.S.Agent v2 #1  FB #1-5
U.S.Agent v2 #1
U.S.Agent v2 #2
U.S.Agent v2 #3
	This series, occurring over the course of a few days, presents a 
thorny problem for calendar placement.  Attuma has clearly taken over 
Atlantis here.  That fact, plus Namors presence in issue #2 places the 
series after Def2 4.  But wait!  Senator Warkowski of the Senate 
Appropriations Committee is stated as being up for re-election in a flashback 
in issue #1 and he is defeated between the last two pages of issue #3.  The 
whole plot centers around Warkowskis political ambitions and cannot be taken 
lightly.  Given the series placement in regard to Def2 (and given the thorny 
issue of Namoritas chronology above), how can we possibly place USA2 during 
the previous falls election season?  Or, can we think of a reason why 
Warkowski would be involved in a re-election campaign a few months after the 
normal election season?  Remember, it cant be a special election to fill a 
vacancy; Warkowskis the incumbent running for re-election.  A No-Prize for 
someone who can explain this!

Captain America v3 #41
Captain America v3 #42
Captain America v3 #43
Captain America v3 #44
	CA2 41-44 occur over the course of two days.  CA3 41 occurs weeks 
after CA3 37.  In CA3 44, Taskmaster refers to the Avengers raiding his 
operations, which we see in A3 38, so I place CA3 41-44 after CA3 38.  Full 
moon (perhaps the same as in TB:LS).

X-Men Unlimited #34/3
	One night and the next day.  Full moon.

Cable v2 #97
Cable v2 #98
Cable v2 #99
	These three issues occur over the course of two days.  Full moon.

Cable v2 #100/1
	This story occurs over the course of several days following C2 99.  
Does C2 100/2 take place after this, or before C2 97?

Morlocks #1
Morlocks #2
Morlocks #3
Morlocks #4
	The first three issues occur over the course of two days (I dont 
have issue #4).  There is a full moon, with snow and damn cold weather in 
Chicago.

Wolverine v2 #167  FB
Wolverine v2 #167
Wolverine v2 #168
Wolverine v2 #169
	Here we have a span of a few days (although I dont have issue #169 
so I dont know if that should be extended) shortly after W2 166.  The Beast 
is convalescing in W2 167-FB.

Fantastic Four v3 #51 
Fantastic Four v3 #52 
Fantastic Four v3 #53 
Fantastic Four v3 #54
	The Invisible Woman gives birth in FF3 54.  FF3 51-54 occur over the 
course of two days, while the Stern Academy is in session.  There are topical 
green trees in New York and a full moon in FF3 53 and 54.  This may be the 
same full moon as in TB:LS and CA3 41-44.  Franklin is only seven, which 
just cant be right. (I still contend that Franklins reality-warping powers 
are causing him to remain eternally young and are preventing anyone from even 
noticing!).

Black Panther v3 #34
Black Panther v3 #35
	The Surfers appearance with the Defenders here, combined with Iron 
Fists chronology, place these issues between Def2 4 and 5.

FEBRUARY

Iron Man v3 #42 
	Tony Stark is puttering around with armor modifications.  It is a 
few short weeks after IM3 41.

Iron Man v3 #43
	Stark meets Goliath in an essentially empty (except for Jarvis) 
Avengers Mansion.

Iron Man v3 #44
	Here we have the introduction of Stark's transitional armor. It 
actually is being slightly modified throughout IM's various appearances 
until Grell and Ryan introduce a new version in IM3 50.

Iron Man v3 #45
	IM3 43-45 continue from IM3 42 and occur during the next few days.  
It is weeks before IM3 46.

Iron Man Annual 2001/2
	Im guessing the second story in this annual occurs the day after 
IM3 45 given the opening reference to events of the last few days.

Iron Man Annual 2001/1
	This story occurs over the course of two days.  Weeks before IM3 
46.

Defenders v2 #5
	Namorita is shown a captive of Attuma, which I argue she has been 
since Def2 2.  The Surfer leaves for space, so I place this after BP3 35.  
Green trees are topical.

Defenders v2 #6
	Same night as Def2 5; several daysbefore Def2 8.  Bruce Banner 
appears, still afflicted with ALS.

Defenders v2 #7
	Same night as Def2 6.

Avengers: The Ultron Imperative
	One night and the next day.  Hawkeye is given a temporary release 
from Seagate Prison to participate in this adventure.  This is the first 
appearance of Hank Pym as Yellowjacket.  On the surface, dialogue would imply 
that his first appearance as YJ is A3 #45, but that cant be so. I would point 
out that Hank is being a bit flippant about his assumption of the YJ identity 
(Whats my excuse?, he asks, as if he hasnt fully resolved it himself.)  
Iron Man is also using his classic armor here, stating that he is doing some 
additional tinkering on his normal armor.

Weapon X  The Draft: Wild Child  FB
	Just plopped this here based on Jephs work.  I dont have this issue.

Weapon X  The Draft: Agent Zero
	Again, I dont have this, but it must occur before DP2 59.

Incredible Hulk v3 #30
	Bruce Banner is all-but-dead from ALS, so this must occur after Def2 
6.

Incredible Hulk v3 #31
Incredible Hulk v3 #32 
	Banner is cured of ALS by Ant-Man and Mr. Fantastic. Thing and 
She-Hulk cameo. With Jennifer's world-trotting from China to France to NYC, 
we tried to keep this appearance relatively close to her other NYC appearance 
in FF3 50.

X-Treme X-Men #3  FB #3
	The Beast is here, so he has reconnoitered with the team following 
the convalescence mentioned in W2 167-FB.  The X-Treme team leaves for Spain 
and is next seen in XX 1-FB.

Captain America v3 #45  FB
	Iron Man is still in his classic armor, so were presuming he hasn't 
gotten back to the lab yet.

Captain America v3 #46  FB
	Here, however, we see Iron Man back in his transitional armor, with 
some visual modifications. Probably just artistic license, but we can get it 
to work with the story anyway!

Captain America v3 #47  FB
Captain America v3 #48  FB
Captain America v3 #45
Captain America v3 #46
Captain America v3 #47
	Namor remarks that he hasnt recovered Atlantis yet, so its between 
Def2 2 and 11.  The gap between Def2 7 and 8 is probably the best spot.  Now 
hes with the Avengers here, so if Namors so determined to get Atlantis back, 
why doesnt he enlist the Assemblers to kick barbarian butt?  Stupid pride?  
Hes not too proud to get the Defenders to do it...

Captain America v3 #48 
	CA3 45-FB begins six days before CA3 45, and the total time span 
from the start of CA3 45 through CA3 48 is seven days.  After many months, 
the Red Skull gives up control of the SHIELD heli-carrier in CA3 48-FB.  This 
means that the heli-carriers appearance in MK 14 must occur after this point.

Deadpool v2 #56
	One day.

X-Men Unlimited #32/3
	A span of a few days.

Defenders v2 #8  FB
Defenders v2 #8
Defenders v2 #9 
Defenders v2 #10
	A non-pregnant Invisible Woman makes an appearance, so this is 
placed after FF3 54.  The Surfer is back.  Def2 9-10 occur the same day as 
Def2 8, which occurs the day after Def2 8FB.

X-Force #116  FB #1
	One day, after XFO 117FB #6 and shortly before XFO 116.  Im allowing 
time between XFO 115 and 116FB #1 for the X-Force name to be co-opted and the 
team assembled.

Captain America v3 #49
	One day.  The falling leaves in New York must be topical.  Jacket 
weather in Idaho.

Black Panther v3 #38
Black Panther v3 #39
Black Panther v3 #40
	Iron Fist regains his powers, justifying Gravitons taking him out 
later in TB 57.

X-Men Unlimited #33/1
	One day.

Captain America v3 #50/2
	Perhaps a couple of days.  The green grass and trees at Arlington 
Cemetery must be topical.

Deadpool v2 #57
Deadpool v2 #58
Deadpool v2 #59
Deadpool v2 #60
	I have only two issues of this Agent of Weapon X storyline, so 
temporal references are welcome.  Copycat appears in issue #59 after Weapon 
X  The Draft: Agent Zero, and Wade dies in issue #60.

Defenders v2 #11
	This story, which cannot occur months after Def2 2, features Namors 
reclamation of Atlantis and the freeing of Namorita and so must occur before 
TB 57.

Deadpool v2 #61
Deadpool v2 #62
Deadpool v2 #63
Deadpool v2 #64
	I only have two issues of the Funeral for a Freak storyline, so 
temporal references are again welcome.  Wades funeral places this within 
days after his death in DP2 60.  My placement here is based on Jephs work, 
with the Panther showing up between BP3 40 and TB 57.

X-Force #116
X-Force #117
X-Force #118
X-Force #119
X-Force #120
	These issues occur over the course of a week or so (but Im not 
splitting them all up in the calendar), shortly after XFO 116FB #1 and before 
TB 57.

Thunderbolts #53
	It is only two days before TB 54.

Captain America v3 #50/3
	One day.  Cap and Sharon part ways in a story that must predate the 
death of Cap in CA3 50/4-5.  The green grass and trees in Maine must be 
topical.

Thunderbolts #54
	It is two days after TB 53.  It is a couple of weeksafter Clint 
Barton was put in prison, but this may be a reference to a transfer to 
Seagate after a few months spent being held elsewhere.  Cap ends his 
association with the Redeemer program after several weeks on the job.

Thunderbolts #55 
Thunderbolts #56
Thunderbolts #57
	Iron Man is in his transitional armor (probably after working some 
kinks out in CA3 46-FB). We have appearances by a non-pregnant Invisible 
Woman (after FF3 54), Namorita (after Def2 11), Iron Fist (after BP3 40) and 
Yellowjacket (after A:UI).  I assume the Surfer is behind the scenes here.  
The X-Force line-up suggests placement after XFO 120.  Kang is in Damocles 
Base.

Thunderbolts #58
Thunderbolts #59
	TB 54-59 all occur within the span of a day.

Thunderbolts #60
	TB 60 occurs the same day as TB 59 and the following day.  Green 
trees in Pittsburgh are topical.

Thunderbolts #61
	TB 61 occurs the same day as the end of TB 60, four days later, 
and the day after that.

Thunderbolts #62
	Same day as TB 61?

Thunderbolts #67  FB (page 5)
	This flashback probably occurs days after the death of Meteorite III 
in TB 56.  It is established as occurring twelve weeks before TB 67, but 
this cant be right.

Iron Man v3 #46
	Tony has been tied up with his new company for weeks.  I think this 
is a reference to the San Francisco company introduced in IM 02/1.  Goliath 
cameos here.  Tom Brevoort has stated that this whole story was intended as 
a sequel to A:UI, in which Hank appeared as Yellowjacket.  Ultrons chronology 
dictates this placement, and Sun-Taos situation doesnt warrant a gap between 
pages 15 and 16 as Sean and Jeph suggest.  As Tom was editor of this story, 
Im inclined to go with his chronology (sorry, guys).  Hank re-donning his 
Goliath costume here isnt a critical problem in my opinion, as this story 
occurs before Hanks explanation to Wanda in A3 45 about his resolution to 
maintain the Yellowjacket identity (a bit more serious a tone than he had in 
A:UI).

Iron Man v3 #47
Iron Man v3 #48 
	IM3 46-48 occur during one day.  Enough time needs to pass between 
A:UI and IM3 46-48 for Ultron to build his cult following.

Thunderbolts #63
Thunderbolts #64 (pages 1-5)
	TB 63 and the first five pages of TB 64 occur over the course of 
three days, probably starting several days after TB 62.  It is one week 
before TB 64 pg. 5-9, two weeks before TB 64 pg. 10-20, three weeks before 
TB 65, and six weeks before TB 68.

X-Treme X-Men #1  FB
	A span of time as the X-Treme team race across the Atlantic in a 
yacht.  This travel takes up a chunk of the time Ive placed between G&B 1FB 
and XX 1 and occurs after XX 3-FB #3.

Iron Man v3 #49
	One day.

X-Force #121
	One day and the next day.

X-Force #122
	Same day as the end of XFO 121 and two days later.  Placement here, 
before A3 45 (and also Brotherhood #8), is based on Jephs work.

Avengers v3 #45
	The dialogue suggests this is the first time Wanda has seen Hank as 
Yellowjacket. Clearly, though, Hank appeared as Yellowjacket before now in 
A:UI.  The dialog can be interpreted as being the first time Wanda decides to 
broach the topic.  We also have Cap bandaged up throughout the issue. While 
the dialogue suggests this was from his being turned into a zombie, this 
cant be right, as Cap has made several appearances without bandages since 
A3 44.  I think it makes more sense if he got the injuries from being dropped 
hard  accidentally  by Graviton (TB 58), rather than radiation (A3 44).  
Hawkeyes appearance in CA3 50/6 nixes the placement of Caps death just 
prior to this story.  The Master sends up his ring walls at the end of this 
issue, which forces the Kang War almost in its entirety after Graviton's 
attack from Thunderbolts.

Avengers v3 #46
Avengers v3 #47
Avengers v3 #48 
	This issue occurs 72 hours after A3 45 and weeks before A3 51.

Avengers v3 #49
	Washington DC is nuked by Kang.

Avengers v3 #50
	A3 46-50 occur within the 96 hours the Avengers were given to stop 
Kang at the end of A3 45.

Thunderbolts #64 (pages 5-9)
	This segment begins one day one week after TB 64 pg. 1-5 and ends 
two days later.  The end comes twenty-seven hours before TB 64 pg. 10-20.

Thunderbolts #64 (pages 10-20)
	This segment occurs twenty-seven hours  two days  after TB 64 pg. 
6-9 and two weeks after TB 64 pg. 1-5, so it must be one week before TB 65, 
three weeks before TB 66, and four weeks before TB 68.

MARCH

Thunderbolts #65
	This issue and the flashback within occur during the course of a day.  
It is three weeks after TB 63, so it must be one week after TB 64 pg. 10-20 
and two weeks before TB 66.

Thunderbolts #66
	One day.  It is three weeks after TB 64 pg. 10-20, so it must be 
two weeks after TB 65 and one week before TB 68.

Avengers v3 #51 
	This issue occurs during the span of two consecutive days,a few days 
later, and two nights after that.  It begins weeks after A3 48, so there 
must be a time gap between A3 50 and 51.  Wed be hard pressed to put other 
published stories in this gap, as Kang has conquered a good chunk of the world 
and there are no other references to this state of affairs in other titles.  
However, I suggest that this state of affairs has not affected Hawkeyes 
undercover activities (as shown in TB 65); Hawkeye sure isnt shown fighting 
Kang at any time and his activities in TB provide an answer why.

Avengers v3 #52
	Introduction of the Iron Mans Grell-Ryan armor.  Probably the day 
after the end of A3 51 and the day after that.  It is weeks after A3 50, 
during which time Caps team of Avengers have been trapped in space.  Theres 
a full moon in both A3 51 and 52.

Avengers v3 #53
	The same day as the end of A3 52.

Avengers v3 #54
	Still the same day.  This issue occurs three weeks before A3 55. 
Thor disappears at the end of this issue.

Iron Man v3 #50  FB
	This first flashback presumably occurs on Christmas Eve, given both 
dialog reference to it and the presence of Christmas trees and mistletoe, but 
this flashback must occur in continuity (between IM3 49 and 50) given the 
plot references made here.  So the Christmas references are, regrettably, 
topical.  Maybe its the beginning of spring?  It is one week before IM3 
50.

Iron Man v3 #50
Iron Man v3 #54  FB
Iron Man v3 #50
	A span of several days the week after IM3 50FB.  There is snow, 
which is certainly possible.

X-Treme X-Men #1
X-Treme X-Men #2
X-Treme X-Men #3
X-Treme X-Men #4
	XX 1-4 occur over the course of a few days.  XX 3 features a lovely 
summer day in Valencia, Spain, but although the weather may be nice, it may 
be no later than early spring.  Full moon in XX 4, which occurs weeks before 
XX 01/1.

Wolverine Annual 2001/1
Wolverine Annual 2001/2
Wolverine v2 #170
Wolverine v2 #171
Wolverine v2 #172
Wolverine v2 #173
Wolverine v2 #174
Wolverine v2 #175
Wolverine v2 #176
	Out of all these issues, I have only issue #172, which continues 
from #171 and occurs on one day.  According to Jeph, the two annual stories 
serve as prelude to W2 170-176.  Can anyone help with temporal references?

Iceman v2 #1
Iceman v2 #2
Iceman v2 #3
Iceman v2 #4
	As Jeph remarks, this series must occur before X 01 and X 118, and 
may explain Bobbys absence in UX 394.  I dont have this series, so temporal 
references would be appreciated.

Generation X #75
	One day and the next morning.  The Massachusetts Academy closes, 
Chamber is invited to join the X-Men, and Emma accepts an appointment with 
Prof. X.

Brotherhood #1
Brotherhood #2
Brotherhood #3
	I dont have issue #1, but issues #2-3 occur over the course of four 
days during the school year.  Green grass and trees.

X-Man #71
X-Man #72
X-Man #73
X-Man #74
	Out of these issues, I have only #74, which seems to continue from 
#73, then appears to have a gap and ends on a night with a full moon.  More 
information, anyone?

Iron Man v3 #51
Iron Man v3 #52
	IM3 51-52 cover a span of three days with a full moon shown.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #42
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #43
	These two issues show a span of a few days during spring break for 
college students, so its probably March, before the Easter story in CA4 1-3.  
Theres a full moon in PPSM2 43.

Marvel Knights #11
Marvel Knights #12
Marvel Knights #13
Marvel Knights #14
Marvel Knights #15
	MK 11-15 occur during one night with a full moon.  This story must 
take place after the Red Skull gives up control of the SHIELD heli-carrier in 
CA3 48-FB.

X-Men Unlimited #34/2
	One night, between GX 75 and X 115.  Ill go with Jephs explanation 
of Emmas behavior.  It should be long enough before X 115 for Emma to spend 
some time in Genosha, and that means that Chamber is AWOL for some time.  Full 
moon.

Uncanny X-Men #394
	One night, before X 114.  Full moon.

Tigra #1
	One night and the next night.  Full moon.  Bare trees.

Brotherhood #4
	One night.  Full moon.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #32
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #33
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #34
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #35
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #37
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #38
	The Spidey vs. Morlun storyline only occurs over the course of a 
day or two.  It ends with Peter getting severely beaten.  High school is in 
session and ASM2 35 shows a full moon.

Thunderbolts #68
	One day.  It is six weeks after TB 64 pg. 1-5, so it must be one 
week after TB 66.

Thunderbolts #67
	TB 67 is supposed to occur twelve weeks after the flashback shown 
on page 5, which itself occurs shortly after TB 56.  This cant be right, as 
this would mean an inordinate amount of time for Hawkeye to be on his mission.

Thunderbolts #69
Thunderbolts #71
Thunderbolts #73
	TB 67-73 occur during the course of one day (although TB 73 may go 
beyond that).  Green grass and trees.

Thunderbolts #70
	It is sixteen months after Paris of Counter Earth was annihilated 
by a meteor strike.

Thunderbolts #72
Thunderbolts #74
Thunderbolts #75
	Im banking on the finale of this long TB storyline to wrap up pretty 
quickly and result in Hawkeyes availability for other appearances afterward.

Cable v2 #101
Cable v2 #102
Cable v2 #103
Cable v2 #104
	C2 101-104 seem to take place over the course of a few days, ending 
two hundred days after 9-11, or March 31.

APRIL

Captain America v3 #50/4
Captain America v3 #50/5
Captain America v3 #50/6
	CA3 50/4-5 occur during a day and end in Caps pointless death.  In 
CA3 50/6, news of Caps death spreads and we see a funeral that probably 
occurs a few days later.  We see a non-pregnant Invisible Woman (post FF3 54) 
and Namor as sovereign of Atlantis (post Def2 11 but likely prior to Def2 12 
and the resulting Order storyline).  Hawkeye is televised, wearing costume and 
brandishing quiver and arrows, so this must occur after the conclusion of the 
covert operation storyline in TB 75.  Iron Man is not wearing the Grell-Ryan 
armor; hes in the transitional armor that lasted from IM3 44 through 49.  Im 
willing to believe that hes working kinks out of the Grell-Ryan armor..  Tony 
has been shown to switch armors while new ones are being tweaked (witness 
A:UI).  Given the timing of Thunderbolts and Hawkeyes chronology, its hard 
to place this story before the first introduction of the Grell-Ryan armor in 
A3 52.  Placing it after IM3 52 allows for calendar placement.  Thor is in his 
classic costume, so this story should occur before the last page of T2 30, the 
storyline that leads to Odins death.  Im placing Thor here during his 
three-week absence from the Avengers between A3 54 and 55.  Firebird is not 
present at Caps funeral, so she has no chance to resolve her issue with Thor 
until A3 55.  We see that the Beast is not cat-like, so this story occurs 
before X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #1 and New X-Men #114.  A little time is 
needed since XX 3 for Hank to recover enough to attend this funeral, which 
Storm also attends, probably while getting Hank at the mansion for the mission 
in XX 1-4.  Rick Jones is here before he grows the facial hair first seen in 
CM5 27.

X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #1
X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #2
X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #3
X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #4
	This series occurs during one night and the next day.  It occurs 
between XX 4 and 5, and since XX 5 seems to follow close on the heels of NX 
116, I would contend that the cat-like Beast makes his first appearance here, 
right after Caps funeral, meaning that the transformation occurred just 
before XX:SL 1.

Nightcrawler v2 #1
Nightcrawler v2 #2
Nightcrawler v2 #3
Nightcrawler v2 #4
	I need help here, as I dont have this series.  Placement before 
Brotherhood #8 is based on Jephs work.

Cable v2 #105
	Dont have this issue, but Jeph places Cable in Rio.  Temporal 
references?

Brotherhood #7
Brotherhood #8
Brotherhood #9
	I dont have issue #7 or #9, but #8 takes place one day, before X 
114.  Cables in Brazil, placing this just after C2 105 and before C2 106.  
Lacunas presence on a billboard places this after XFO 122.  Nightcrawlers 
presence with the X-Men suggests placement after his limited series.

New X-Men #114
New X-Men #115
New X-Men #116
	These issues probably span two days, sometime after UX 394 and 
Brotherhood #8.  Emma shows up.  Scott and Jean have barely touched each other 
for five months.  This means that it must be five months or more since the 
Search for Cyclops series, which had to take place before 9-11.

X-Men Unlimited #36/3 (pages 1-2)
	A Saturday night.  The cat-like Beast is featured.

X-Factor v2 #1 
	Saturday, April 6,Sunday, April 7, Monday, April 8, and Tuesday, 
April 9.  (These dates dont match the Wednesday, July 2" mentioned in UX 
109 and would mean that 9-11 also was a Tuesday in the MU.) Two weeks before 
the beginning of XF2 2.  Jean Greys anonymous appearance in the crowd would 
indicate that this story occurs before the X-Men go public.  It fits right 
before Xaviers announcement in NX 116.  This placement suggests that the 
second chronological appearance of the X-Mens new leather outfits is here, 
after XFO 117-FB #6.  Full moon.

X-Men Unlimited #36/3 (pages 2-7)
	One night.  The Beast finds the mutated cat and begins to nurse it 
back to health.  This is presumably a Saturday, but Ive had to compress 
the time it takes for the entire story in XU 36/3 to occur to make it fit 
before X 01.

Cable v2 #106
Cable v2 #107
	I dont have these issues, so temporal references would again be 
appreciated.  Two years before Soldier X #1.

Captain America: Dead Men Running #1
Captain America: Dead Men Running #2
Captain America: Dead Men Running #3
	Possibly one day (I dont have the first issue so Im not sure).  
Placement here, between CA3 50/6 and CA4 1, is based on publication chronology 
for Cap issues.  Plus, it offers an excuse for Deadline #1.  I am leaving a 
slot open for a story about how Cap survived CA3 50/5 if Marvel ever decides 
to clue us in about what that whole death thing.	

Deadline #1
	One day.  The headline, Captain America: Whos Under the Mask Now?, 
suggests that Cap has resurfaced publicly after his presumed death, although 
some believe that a new man has taken the identity (its happened before).  
Thus Id place it after CA:DMR 3 and before CA3 1-4, at the end of which Caps 
true identity is revealed.  A reference is made to it being six months 
since June, but this cant be a December story.

Deadline #2
	The day after Deadline #1.  About three months after the flashback 
in this issue.  Batroc has been struck by an arrow fired by Hawkeye, so this 
story must occur after TB 75.  The battle between Spidey and Doc Ock is not 
the one shown in PP:SM 41  the setting and choreography dont match.  So 
whats the scoop?  Both issues #1 and #2 show coat weather and its raining 
in #2 (a spring shower?).

Deadline #3
Deadline #4
	I dont have issues #3-4, though I understand we have reason to 
believe that they occur before Daredevil reveals his identity (DD2 32) from 
comments made by Ben Urich in issue #4.  Does anyone have temporal references 
from these two issues?

X-Men Unlimited #31/3
	One night and the next morning.  Not sure of Nates order of 
appearance here.  Jeph and Russ appear to disagree.  Before X-Man #71 or 
between X-Man #74 and #75?

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #44
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #45
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #46
	PPSM2 44-46 span about four days, the third of which is a school 
day.  Rain, which I interpret as spring rain (April showers?).  It is unlikely 
that the Spidey/Morlun fight (ASM2 32-38) occurs between PPSM2 44 and 45.

Avengers v3 #55
	One day three weeks after A3 54.  Thor returns and I offer this as 
Caps first post-death appearance with the Assemblers.

Captain America Annual 2001
	One day.  In ASM 01, we have a reference to it being after a 
presidential election, and here we have a reference to a president (depicted 
as Dubya) who has been on the job only a few months.  Assuming presidents 
in the Marvel Universe are inaugurated in January, that would place this story 
around April.  Caps identity is still a secret, so this story must occur 
before CA4 1, which is an Easter story.

X-Men Unlimited #36/3 (pages 7-12)
	This story presumably ends three weeks after XU 36/3 pg. 5-7, during 
which time the Beast has devoted himself to the care of the mutated cat, 
leaving no room for other adventures.  But Hanks reference to reports of 
Third Species radicals that he actually encounters in X 01 means the whole 
XU 36/3 story would need to be compressed.  I place the conclusion here, 
before the Beast appears in A2 56-FB.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.

Avengers v3 #56  FB
	This story occurs before Thor has left to do the monarch bit in 
Asgard.  Indeed, this may occur before the last page of T2 32, which leads 
directly into the plot culminating in Odins death.  The cat-like Beast 
appears.  Iron Mans identity is probably not revealed before this flashback.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #39
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #40
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #41
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #42 
	Dr. Strange cameos. Supposedly, this will lead into an upcoming Dr. 
Strange story: Doctor Strange: The Other Side of Darkness.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #43
	I count a span of six days from ASM2 39 through the first part of 
ASM2 43, which itself occurs five days before the last part of ASM2 43.  In 
these issues we have conflicting references: bare trees in ASM2 39 and green 
trees in ASM2 40; Friday, July 17" is referenced in ASM2 42 and the last day 
of school before a holiday break in ASM2 43.  Im inclined to ignore the 
July reference and think of the holiday break reference as Easter (spring) 
break for the school where Peter works.  Id say this span of issues ends 
on Good Friday, two days before CA4 1-3.

Captain America v4 #1
Captain America v4 #2
Captain America v4 #3
	Cap unmasks on national television in CA4 3.  CA4 1-3 occur on 
Easter, seven months after CA4 1-FB, so it must be April (before April 25, 
the last possible day for Easter).  This would mean that this story occurs 
before the Richards June wedding anniversary referenced in FF3 55.  This 
story must occur after CA 01, in which Caps ID is still secret.

X-Man #75
	I dont have this issue.  Are there temporal references that would 
place this?

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #43 
	Since Doc Ock is out of prison here, we need to put as much space 
as we reasonably can after his capture in PP #41.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #44
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #45
	The second part of ASM2 43 and ASM2 44 occur five days after the 
first part of ASM2 43, so were looking at the Wednesday after Easter, during 
spring break at Peters school.  And, fortunately, there are no references to 
school being in session here.  ASM2 44 ends in a cliffhanger, so ASM2 45 is 
listed here, although it is not yet published.

New X-Men Annual 2001
	One day and the next day.  This story must occur during the time gap 
between X 116 and 117 and after the Iceman series.  Because the Beast faces 
what he only heard rumored in XU 36/3 end, this story must occur after the 
end of XU 36/3.

X-Factor v2 #2 (pages 1-3)
	One day and the next day, two weeks after the end of XF2 1.  Long 
enough into baseball season for Tony Robb to have his 32nd home run of the 
year.  18 months after XF2 2FB.

Marvel Knights v2 #1
Marvel Knights v2 #2
Marvel Knights v2 #3
	I have the first two issues.  MK2 1 occurs on a night with a full 
moon and lunar eclipse.  It looks like MK2 2 occurs the next day, and MK2 3 
seems to continue from MK2 2.  

X-Treme X-Men #5 (beginning)
	Xaviers TV appearance from New X-Men #116 is rebroadcast here, but 
it may be weeks after Xavier reveals his secret.

Uncanny X-Men #395
	Chamber turns up in London after not showing up at Xaviers following 
the events of GX 75.

X-Treme X-Men #5 (end)
Uncanny X-Men #396
X-Treme X-Men #6
X-Treme X-Men #7
X-Treme X-Men #8
	Sage becomes catatonic here and may be this way for several days.

Uncanny X-Men #397
Uncanny X-Men #398
	I figure these issues span around five days and we see full moons 
in both titles (although a crescent moon appears in XX 6).

New X-Men #117
	One night.  It must be long enough after X 116 for mutants to gather 
and enroll at Xaviers.  We see bare and green trees and the weather seems 
mild.

New X-Men #118
	It appears to be the day after X 117 and the day after that.  The 
first day is a school day.  Again, we have green trees, bare trees, and mild 
weather.  Jean makes a reference to the events of X 01.

New X-Men #119
New X-Men #120
New X-Men #121
	X 119-121 occur the same night as X 118.  Full moon.

Uncanny X-Men #399
	One day.  The full moon may be the same one as in X 121.

Uncanny X-Men #400
	Perhaps the day after UX 399.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

New X-Men #122
	Shortly after X 121.  We still see green grass and trees in 
Westchester.

X-Treme X-Men #9
	Sage is still catatonic.  Jean states that she gives her first press 
conference in a few hours.  That press conference happens in NXM 123.  This 
issue occurs before XX 01. Green trees at Xaviers.

New X-Men #123
New X-Men #124
New X-Men #125
New X-Men #126
	X 123-126 occur the same day as XX 9.  All told, XX 5 through X 126 
take place over the course of a week or so.  In issue #23 we see autumnal 
colors, which must be topical.

MAY

Cyclops #1
	This issue starts one day and continues after Scott has driven his
motorcycle from New York to Alaska.  Prof. X appears seated in the first part, 
perhaps because he is not yet comfortable walking after his spinal cure in X 
126.  There are green grass and trees in Westchester, but a blizzard in 
Alaska.  Full moon.

Cyclops #2
Cyclops #3
Cyclops #4
	These three issues continue for four days from the end of issue #1.

X-Men Unlimited #34/1
	A span of five days, Monday through Friday.  Between GX 75 and 
UX 404.

Daredevil v2 #32
	Matt Murdock is revealed to be Daredevil.  Since this makes such 
widespread news within the Marvel Universe, this story is placed before Iron 
Mans and Caps unmaskings, which Ive placed in June and July, respectively.  
DD2 32 also must occur after Deadline #4, which Ive placed in April, so here 
DD2 32 sits in May.  I have not placed other issues of DD2, as I dont collect 
the series, and I only have a few issues of Elektra, so that series is not on 
this list.  Can anyone help with temporal references for these series?

X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001/1
	One day, between XX 9 and 10 and weeks after XX 4.  There are green 
grass and trees in Sydney, where it is probably fall.

Defenders v2 #12/1
Defenders v2 #12/2
Order #1
	The Defenders become the Order.  According to writer Kurt Busiek, 
The Order comes after A3 55, which is why Thor is not in the series.

Thor v2 #32 (last page)
	I propose that a time gap exists between the last two pages of this 
issue.  All but the last page is linked to Maximum Security, and the last page 
starts us on a continuous ride that takes us to Odins death, which must 
postdate A3 55 and perhaps A3 56 as well.  What we see here is Thor bringing 
Beta Ray Bill to Jake Olsons apartment, probably after a length of time in 
which Bill stayed in Asgard.  (Although Bill asks Thor whether the apartment 
is where Thor stays when he is mortal, Bill has been there before, with the 
Warriors Three in T2 31.)  A time gap is suggested in T2 33 when Jake asks 
his mother to remember the events of Maximum Security; he notes that it 
happened a couple of weeks ago, but maybe it just seems like it.

Thor v2 #33
Thor v2 #34
Thor v2 #35
Thor v2 #36
Thor v2 #37
Thor v2 #38
Thor v2 #39
Thor v2 #40
Thor v2 #41
Thor v2 #42
	All these issues form a continuous narrative of a couple of days 
that includes the death of Odin.  T2 41 occurs only days before the first 
flashback in T2 45.  The snow in T2 33-34 must be topical.

X-Treme X-Men #10
X-Treme X-Men #11
	Given that we have the introduction of the Grell-Ryan armor so close 
before the Kang War proper, Khans invasion almost has to occur afterwards.  
The White House has been restored by this point.  The most logical place for 
Thor to appear here is between T3 42 and 43.  In T3 42, Thor overcomes his 
grief over Odins death and decides to turn his attentions to Asgard.  In T3 
43, Tarene is charged with assuming Thors place on earth.  So my theory is 
that Thor (in classic costume, without beard) returned to earth sometime 
between T2 42 and 43 to put some affairs in order, including taking a leave 
of absence from the Avengers, and while doing that reports of Khans invasion 
come pouring in.

X-Treme X-Men #12
X-Treme X-Men #13 
X-Treme X-Men #14
X-Treme X-Men #15
X-Treme X-Men #16 
X-Treme X-Men #17
	These issues seem to take place over the course of two days.  Theres 
a full moon.

X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001/2
	One night.  Full moon, perhaps the same one as in XXM 10-17, UX 
401-407, and Order #2.  This story must occur before XMU 36/1.

Uncanny X-Men #401
Uncanny X-Men #402
Uncanny X-Men #403
Uncanny X-Men #404
Uncanny X-Men #405
Uncanny X-Men #406
Uncanny X-Men #407
	These issues span four days.  Enough time needs to pass since GX 75 
for Banshee to gather his X-Corps resources.  We see topical snow and a full 
moon.

Order #2
Order #3
Order #4
Order #5
Order #6
	These five issues probably span two days, long enough after Order #1 
for the Parringtons to set up a headquarters for the Defenders.  Issue #3 
depicts the first time the curse has transported the Order in over a week.  
Full moon in issue #2.  Jeph theorizes that Prof. X is here shortly after X 
126 and that he is seated because he is still uncomfortable walking after his 
spine was healed.  I suggest that this is why we see him seated in Cyclops #1, 
too.  H3 34 must occur after the Order series, since that issue marks the 
start of the shaved-head Hulk.  I do not collect H3, so can anyone help with 
temporal references from that series?

Thor v2 #43
	Preparations are being made for Odins funeral tomorrow.

Thor v2 #44
	Odins funeral, the day after T2 43, during which time Thor has grown 
a nice beard.  This makes me question whether a day on Asgard equals a day on 
earth.  Thor has not demonstrated the ability to grow a beard within an earth 
day; if he had, he would have had to take shaving breaks during any number of 
previous adventures to stay clean-shaven.  It is here that Thor sheds his 
classic costume, so all scenes showing that costume must occur before now 
actually before T2 43).  It is barely a month before T2 45 and so its 
barely two weeks before the second flashback in T2 45.

Thor v2 #45  FB #1
	This flashback occurs after T2 44 (no more classic Thor costume), and 
only days after Odins death in T2 41.  This flashback occurs before BP3 46.

X-Men Unlimited #36/1  FB
	The flashback on page 3 to scenes from Kittys life in college can be 
snapshots from different points in time during the school year, perhaps some 
before XX 01/2, but I put it all here to make life easier.

X-Men Unlimited #36/1
	A Saturday and Sunday during the college year.  Seeing that this 
story must occur after XX 01/2, it must be very late in the school year.  
Green grass and trees in Chicago.

JUNE

Tigra #2
	This issue span three days.  It is long enough after Tigra 1 for 
Greer to be enrolled in the NYPD Academy.  It must be June 2-4.

Tigra #3
	The same night as the end of Tigra2 and the next night  June 4 and 
June 5.  I dont have Tigra #4, so Ill need someone to help me out here.

Uncanny X-Men Annual 2001
	This story likely occurs between UX 407 and 408.  No temporal 
references, so I just plopped it here.

The Hood #1
	One day.  9-11 is referenced here, so this issue occurs after ASM2 
36.  There is a reference to Giuliani being gone five months; since New York 
mayors take office in January, that would place this story in June.  There is 
also a reference to an explosion at ESU involving mutants; is this a reference 
to an event depicted elsewhere?  And is Electro here before or after You Can 
Call Me Al #2 (which leads into Get Kraven)?

Captain Marvel v5 #27
Captain Marvel v5 #28
Captain Marvel v5 #29
Captain Marvel v5 #30
Captain Marvel v5 #31
	One day.  Long enough after CA4 50/6 for Rick to grow facial hair.  I 
placed these issues after Captain Marvels appearance in The Order.

Uncanny X-Men #408
	One day and the next day.  The events of UX 407 are noted as recent.

X-Factor v2 #2 (pages 6-12)
	One day and the next day, more than two months into baseball 
season.

Spider-Man and Jay Leno
	This three-part story, seen at the backs of various titles, takes 
place during a weekday a month before Sweet Charity.

Uncanny X-Men #409 (pages 1-11)
	Logans been hanging around for a week since UX 408.  It is two 
weeks before UX 409 pg. 12-13.

Thor v2 #45  FB #2
	It must be barely two weeks after T2 44 as it is two weeks before 
T2 45, which occurs barely a month after T2 44.

Fantastic Four v3 #50/4
	A span of a few days including Reeds and Sues wedding anniversary 
and we all know from the Official Marvel Index to the Fantastic Four #3 that 
Reed and Sue were married in late June (FF@ 3).

Black Panther v3 #41
	Iron Man appears in his Grell-Ryan armor, pushing this after the Kang 
War proper. We also saw that T'Challa was apparently on friendly terms with 
Iron Man during The Order, suggesting this storyline occurs after that one.  
Iron Mans identity is not shown as having been revealed, so this story occurs 
before IM 54 end.  Placement here is corroborated by Thors chronology; see 
BP3 46 below.  I have Wolverine here during the more than two weeks that 
separate UX 409 pg. 11 and 14.

Black Panther v3 #42 
	BP3 23 is referred to as having occurred last year, and that would 
be right considering were into a new year here.  Full moon.

Black Panther v3 #43
	Sues not pregnant here...really.

Black Panther v3 #44 FB
Black Panther v3 #44
Black Panther v3 #45
	Black Panther and Iron Man accidentally put a large hole in the White 
House. Placing that incident here would help justify Wasps pointing out the 
reconstruction in A3 #57.  This issue occurs before the attack on Pepper in 
IM3 54 beginning.

Black Panther v3 #46
	It is shown that it is known that Thor has assumed the throne of 
Asgard, so BP3 41 must occur after the A3 56-FB.

Black Panther v3 #47 
	The story in BP3 41-47 occur over the course of a couple of days.

Black Panther v3 #48
	The story, which bounces back and forth with flashbacks, picks up 
from BP3 47, then occurs three days later and the following week.

Iron Man v3 #53
	One day.

Iron Man v3 #54 (beginning)
	Same day as IM3 53.  Pepper is hurt in this segment, so this segment 
must occur after her appearances in BP3 42-45.

Iron Man v3 #54 (end)
	One day, ten days after IM3 54 beginning.

Iron Man v3 #55/1
Iron Man v3 #55/2
	Tony Stark unmasks in IM3 55/2, probably following Caps lead.  The 
first story in this issue occurs on the same day as the end of IM3 54 and 
leads into the beginning of the second story in this issue.  That second 
story ends about four days later, as it is two weeks after the beginning 
of IM3 54.  If it makes sense for Daredevil to have unmasked before Iron Man, 
then DD2 32 occurs before now.

Iron Man v3 #56
Iron Man v3 #57
Iron Man v3 #58
	IM3 56-58 occur the night of the day after the end of the second 
story in IM3 55.  Theres a full moon.

Fantastic Four v3 #55
	A night with a full moon.  Right after the Richards anniversary in FF3 50/4.  It is 256 months -- 21 years and four months -- after Reed and Sue first met.  This puts Sue at about age 40, or at the youngest in her late thirties.  Aha!! I knew it  Marvel Time isnt as compact as weve been led to believe.  With all thats happened, how can it be only 7 or 10 years since FF 1?  Another reason why Franklin cant really be seven.<p>Deadpool v2 #67<br>	One day.  Full moon.<p>Thor v2 #45<br>	It is two weeks after the second flashback in this issue.  It is barely a month after T2 44, which occurred within a day or so of A3 56-FB.  As A3 56 occurs about a month after A3 56-FB, T2 45 must occur around A3 56.  Im inclined to think that the costume Thor wears in A3 56 makes its first appearance here.<br>						<br>Avengers v3 #56<br>	Stark has only recently revealed his identity, and it's not quite common knowledge yet, thus putting this shortly after IM3 55.  Thor is in the costume he was first seen wearing in T2 45, the events of T2 46-50 leave little room for gaps, and Thor brings 
Asgard to earth at the end of T2 50.  That memorable event should postdate 
A3 56.  So I place A3 56 between T2 45 and 46.  (Placement of A3 57 is 
uncertain at this point.  It remains to be seen how the Avengers will figure 
into the Asgard-on-earth plot line begun in T2 51 below.)

Thor v2 #46
Thor v2 #47
Thor v2 #48
Thor v2 #49
Thor v2 #50/1
Thor v2 #50/2
Thor v2 #51
	These issues occur over the course of a day, a hundred days before 
T2 53.  Even though we see green grass and warm weather in New York, someone 
in issue #46 says that its February.  Ill go with the green and warmth.

Uncanny X-Men #409 (pages 12-13)
	One night two weeks after UX 409 pg. 1-11.  Shortly before the 
arranged meeting seen in UX 409 pg. 14-24.

JULY

Uncanny X-Men #409 (pages 14-24)
	The narrative tells us that its Wednesday, July 2.  (This date 
doesnt match those mentioned in XF2 1 and would mean that 9-11 was a 
Wednesday in the MU.)  It is shortly after UX 409 pg. 12-13.

Captain America v4 #4
	One day.  We see fireworks on July 4.

Captain Marvel v5 #32
Captain Marvel v5 #33
Captain Marvel v5 #34
Captain Marvel v5 #35
	One day.

Thor v2 #52
	One day.

Fantastic Four v3 #56
	One night.

New X-Men #127
	One day.

Deadpool v2 #69
	I dont have this issue.  Placement based on Jephs work, with Cap 
here after A3 56 and Siryn before X 128.

X-Factor v2 #2 (pages 13-14)
	Tony Robb has his 72nd homer of the season on a balmy summer night 
in Baltimore.

Thing: Freakshow #1
Thing: Freakshow #2 

X-Factor v2 #2 (pages 15-19)
	One day, as Tony Robb goes for his 73rd homer.  A week before XF2 
2 pg. 19-22. Nightcrawler appears.

Fantastic Four v3 #57
Fantastic Four v3 #58
Fantastic Four v3 #59
	FF3 57-59 occur during one day.  Reed uses a piece of Ben's hide 
from Freakshow to analyze recent changes in his skin.  Thing loses his ability 
to become Ben Grimm.

New X-Men #128
New X-Men #129
New X-Men #130
	X 128-130 occur during one day.  Darkstar dies.

New X-Men #131
	One day, probably a few days after X 130, as we see Darkstars 
funeral.  Since Archangel is still blue here, this issue must occur before 
UX 410.

Wolverine v2 #177
Wolverine v2 #178
Wolverine v2 #179
Wolverine v2 #180
	I have only one of these issues, so placement is, again, based on 
Jephs work (around X 128-130 and before UX 410).  Temporal references 
anyone?
	
X-Factor v2 #2 (pages 19-22)
	One day, a week after XF2 2 pg. 15-19.

X-Men Unlimited #36/2
	Im not sure why Jeph divided this story between pages 11 and 12, 
but it made more sense to me to occur within the span of a few days or so, 
sometime after X 126, and perhaps, as Jeph suggests, before UX 410.

Spider-Man: Sweet Charity
	A span of five days  Wednesday through Monday.  Full moon.  We see 
Ben Grimms second charity auction.  As noted by others, this story should 
happen long after 9/11, so it is likely camping season of the following year.  
We also have to leave enough time for Hawkeye to finish his covert assignment 
in Thunderbolts to appear here.  Spider-Man appeared on The Tonight Show last 
month.

Fantastic Four v3 #60
	This issue spans a week, from Sunday through Saturday.

AUGUST

SEPTEMBER

Chamber #1
Chamber #2
Chamber #3
Chamber #4
	Jonathan at college, perhaps at the beginning of the school year.  
I dont have this series (only #1 and #2 published to date), so some help 
would be great.  If necessary, these issues (and UX 410-412) could be moved 
up to June, with Chamber starting college during a summer semester.			<br>Uncanny X-Men #410<br>Uncanny X-Men #411<br>Uncanny X-Men #412<br>	UX 410-412 occur during the course of a day, a year after Mutant X #32.  Since this story ends with Archangel losing his blue skin color, it must occur after X 131.  Chamber has gone off to college.  Green grass and trees in Vancouver and upstate New York.  Jackets in Vancouver.<p>Thor v2 #53<br>	One day, a hundred days after T2 51, so I figure its the end of September.  So what have Thors teammates been doing during this time, with Asgard floating over Manhattan and Thor drawing worshipers?<br>	<br>Thor v2 #54<br>	One day.  Green grass and trees in Manhattan.<p>

			*	*	*

Very quick bad news.
Posted by Jeph! on September 08, 2002 at 18:47:14:
In Reply to: Here it is, folks!  Pages from the MU Calendar!
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 08, 2002 at 16:03:16:

Paul:

I haven't read anything except your entry regarding 9/11 and Cyclops, and 
already I have bad news for you.

Cyclops is still presumed dead until just AFTER Maximum Security, as a bare 
minimum.

In UX #387, Jean talks with Rogue, who saw a spirit of Scott in #386, and 
they discuss the idea that he may actually be alive.  This is where Jean 
and Cable hatch the plot to find him that becomes the "Search for Cyclops" 
series.  And of course, UX #387 is part of the MaxSec crossover.

So, yeah.  There you go -- torpedo #1.

Any chance I can get the WordPerfect version of this thing mailed to me?  
There's no bold or itals below.

    -Jeph, bearer of bad news as quickly and ruthlessly as possible  ;)

			*	*	*

Re: Very quick bad news.
Posted by Russ Chappell on September 08, 2002 at 23:21:27:
In Reply to: Very quick bad news.
posted by Jeph! on September 08, 2002 at 18:47:14:

E-mail it to me, and I'll change your Board Post to reflect the formatting.

			*	*	*

Re: Very quick bad news.
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 09, 2002 at 07:21:44:
In Reply to: Very quick bad news.
posted by Jeph! on September 08, 2002 at 18:47:14:

> I haven't read anything except your entry regarding 9/11 and Cyclops, and 
already I have bad news for you.

> Cyclops is still presumed dead until just AFTER Maximum Security, as a 
bare minimum.

Another nail in the coffin of a canonical ASM2 36!  Characters appearing 
when they're MIA, characters appearing out of character... Ugh!

Placing X:SC before an absolute September 11 presents a number of other 
problems.

I was inclined to place the MU's 9-11 on some other date, later in the 
calendar year.  This would solve a lot of problems, except there are too 
many references to the actual date in various Marvel comics.

Thanks for pointing this out, Jeph.  I confess I didn't go back over all 
the Maximum Security crossovers.  But I'm counting on you to come up with 
another solution.

Paul

			*	*	*

Jeph's Comments, Critiques, and Corrections - round one
Posted by Jeph! on September 09, 2002 at 13:06:31:
In Reply to: Here it is, folks!  Pages from the MU Calendar!
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 08, 2002 at 16:03:16:

Torpedoes away!

Paul:

I printed out your post (38 pages at 9-point font ::shakes fist:: ), and ran 
through making notations  the following is my transcription of those notes.  
I've ATTEMPTED to leave in enough references so that you can pinpoint where 
in your post I'm talking about  but if any confusion is raised, just ask 
and I'll attempt to clarify.

I should start by saying that my main goal is to make the stories flow 
nicely.  I'd rather find the overall best way to organize various story arcs 
so that a fan, reading the stories in our prescribed order, will feel sated 
and complete.  Yes, I understand that certain temporal references lead you to 
place certain things in certain spots relative to one another, but if I see 
too jarring an incongruity that could be easily smoothed by ignoring one or 
two temporal references, I'd advise you to do it.

There's not too much of that in here, but I thought I'd let you know the 
mindset I'm going in with.  I have nothing against an attempted absolute 
calendar placement, so long that the characters' logical RELATIVE placements 
come first.

You know, it might actually help things if this could somehow be formatted 
ONTO a calendar.  I mean, we have the months separated out, but for things 
like "three days later", it's be great to see an actual date progression of 
three days.  When you do this out on paper, how do you do it?

Okay, here goes.  You asked me to be merciful.  You did not ask me to be 
nice.  ;)

> SEPTEMBER

> X-Men: The Search for Cyclops #1-4
> 
> Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36
> A "flashback" issue set on September 11  Putting 9-11 after Search for 
Cyclops and before Maximum Security and UX 388 is the only way I can make 
ASM2 36 work as a canonical story  So what happened to Scott after this 
appearance? I suggest that, given his emotional state, he hung around on the 
fringes for a while, not participating in X-Men adventures (at least published 
ones) but managing to be intimate with Jean until November (five months before 
X 116), to buy Christmas gifts for teammates (XU 31/2, although he seems to 
have declined celebrating the holiday in X 109), and to attend Peters 
funeral (W2 176-FB). Just because no one was shown as concerned about Scotts 
status in issues of X and UX during this time doesnt mean they werent 
expressing concern between issues. And I dont believe anyone expressed a 
belief that Scott was dead during this time.

As you say, Paul, I was beginning to warm to the idea that Cyclops has been 
alive, BTS, since BEFORE UX 391.  I'd buy your logic above.  I'm open to that 
one small concession as long as it makes the rest of the calendar work.

But this  this just doesn't work.

As I pointed out in my previous post, the "Search for Cyclops" series MUST 
occur after UX #387  that's the issue where Jean gets the idea that Scott 
might even be ALIVE.  That issue is also a Maximum Security crossover.  The 
good news is, there's no sightings of Jean or Cable in the rest of MaxSec, 
so one could assume they picked up and took off after Scott right in the 
middle of the alien crisis.  The bad news is, that doesn't save you much 
time.

I see you have MaxSec occurring in October  is there no way you could 
compress portions of the calendar that aren't include here (the previous 
July and August) so that MaxSec occurs in the first week of September?

Or  horror of horrors  are you going to have to assume the possibility 
that the sacred date of 9/11 is, in the MU, a TOPICAL REFERENCE?

----

> X-Men Forever #1-6

You have these between X #105-106, but I think that a discussion long ago, 
back when the books were just coming out, decided that the series works 
better PRIOR to X #105  for one, Cable (who appears in #1) has not yet 
been inserted into Kelly's security team (in X #105), and Kelly's single 
instance of an openly pro-mutant speech (also in #1) would get moved farther 
back into the beginnings of his presidential campaign, when it could be 
argued that he was still trying to find his audience  instead of between 
X #105-106, two confirmed instances of anti-mutant-sounding speeches.

----

> Hellcat #1-3
> This series cannot occur  after MAXSEC 1, since there is no time between 
then and Clints incarceration in TB 50 for this story to happen.

I had thought that you stated before, that there was a two-day gap between 
TB #49-50.  Not that I have a problem either way  I mean, it's Hellcat, for 
Pete's sake  but if you managed to move the series up to between those 
issues, could you possibly also move up A3@2000, giving Patsy more time to 
write and publish her book?

----

> Gambit v2 #25

Is there any reason you placed this issue before Gambit #23-24?

----

> OCTOBER

> X-Men v2 #106
> 
> X-Men Forever #6 (page 35)
One day. The Toad appears here "three weeks" after XMF 6 pg. 1-33.

More evidence that "X-Men Forever" needs to be pushed back:  in this 
appearance, the Toad is still at a moral crossroads, deciding what to do 
with his new powers.  In X #106, we see the results of his choice.

----

> Uncanny X-Men #386
> This story occurs during hurricane season, and late enough for a hurricane 
named "Sam."
> Uncanny X-Men #387
> Probably the day after UX 386.

I can see why you flipped the order of UX 386 and X 106  given the X-team's 
doting on the sailors in #387, it looks as if it's continuous from the 
sailors' rescue in #386  and flipping the issues would eliminate many fans' 
snarky complaints that the X-Men took a vacation in New Orleans while their 
comrades were trapped with the Neo, then say in X #106 that they couldn't 
have gotten there any sooner.  I initially opposed this when I saw it, but 
it makes lots of sense on further analysis.  Kudos!

----

> Black Panther v3 #25 (end)
> The same day as UX 387.

Nothing here implies that.  I was under the impression that the end sequence 
of the issue took place after the MaxSec crossover wrapped, and the earth was 
cured of the Ego-spore.  After all, the Panther appears in MaxSec #3, helping 
defeat Ronan  you'd think the Panther's "world on the brink of war" arc 
would fit more comfortably after an arc where the earth is busily being 
terraformed.  I'd place BP3 #25-30 AFTER MaxSec #3, since as far as I know 
there is NO time-reference between the beginning and end of the book.

----

> Avengers v3 #35
> Also probably the day after MAXSEC 2.

Actually, I believe that A3 #35 is a direct lead-in to MaxSec #3  the issue 
ends with USAgent using his federal muscle to commandeer the Avengers "and 
any other heroes [he] can find"  which logic dictates would lead right into 
the opening of MaxSec #3, with the money shot of so many heroes bursting in.  
Also, Warbird and Goliath appear in XU #29, which should come before the 
Avengers are commandeered  they don't look like they're on an official 
mission, or worried about getting in trouble, when they drop by to help out 
in XU #29.

----

> Gambit v2 #24
>Same day as Gam2 23.

You're going to have to justify this one for me.  In GAM3 #23, Gambit gets an 
info-disc from the alien guard, and in MaxSec #3 he races to the ego-spore 
front to deliver the disc to Reed Richards.  I find it hard to believe that 
#24 fits in that gap.  There's NO in-book evidence to FORCE it there, and it's 
an unnecessary distraction from the MaxSec story  especially the end 
sequence, hours later, with a New Orleans NOT overrun by Ego-tentacles as it 
was in #23, and a seemingly lazy Gambit "just hanging out", under no apparent 
pressure to get the disc to Reed and help save the world.  I'd seriously 
recommend moving this out of here.

----

> Marvel Knights #1-9

Just out of curiosity here:  are you saying that Marvel Knights #1-9 take 
place over the course of two or three days?

----

> Thunderbolts #49
> Same day as the end of TB 48; I dont place a gap between TB 48 and 49.

Should you?  I'm wondering why you wrote this  if you're thinking of my 
repeated requests for a gap here, I'm referring to the space between TB 
#49-50.  Which, I believe, you said yourself (in the last calendar) was two 
days.

> NOVEMBER

> Uncanny X-Men #388
> Cable v2 #87
> Bishop: The Last X-Man #16
> X-Men v2 #108
> Mystique is here after XMF 6 pg. 36.

I'd buy this  but as I said before, I'm all for moving "X-Men Forever" back 
a bit, placing Mystique's appearance here sometime before X #106  this 
appears to be the BEGINNINGS of her decision to target Kelly, and she 
apparently hasn't learned to hide her new "scaly-form" yet (which we see 
again only once in X #106, and then never again; thank you movie-continuity-
retcon.).

----

> Cable v2 #88
> I have this issue starting the same day as Moiras funeral, with snow in 
Scotland. That would support my theory about Cable actually attending the 
funeral, then lingering after. And with Storms presence here, its easier 
to deal with than having Storm leave and return to Scotland later to be with 
Cable.

I'd buy this  this was actually my train of thought, back in the day, but 
I was shouted down with weighty evidence from the pen of Robert Weinberg, 
and I switched camps.  Not that I'm switching back, mind you, but it seems 
to work just as well either way.  I'm of the mind that Weinberg had nothing 
to do with X:SFC, and just found what he perceived as a likely gap in his 
own scripts to claim it occurred in.

> DECEMBER

> X-Men v2 #111  FB
> One day "several weeks" before X 111. Quicksilver is cast out of Genosha by 
Magneto. This expulsion may have nothing to do with Magnetos plans after 
the Legacy Virus is cured. Pietros role as "freedom fighter" probably finally 
just ticked Magnus off.

You're saying it doesn't necessarily have to occur after Colossus' death.  
And that's certainly true.  You might want to re-read XU #30/4, though, to see 
if Pietro's warning to Wolverine contained any actual INFORMATION, or merely a 
fear of what Magneto was LIKELY up to now that Legacy was cured.

----

> X-Treme X-Men #3  FB #2
> The second flashback in this issue must occur before X 109.
> 
> X-Treme X-Men #3  FB #2
> One day. Rogue, Psylocke and Thunderbird are wearing their red X-Treme 
costumes, so this training session must occur between UX 390 and XX 2-FB.

Well, which is it?

For the record, neither placement works as written.  The very idea of the 
X-Treme team as an X-Men sub-team OCCURRED in X #109, so this flashback is 
absolutely afterwards  but I see no evidence in either UX #390 or XX #2-FB 
to place it before or after either one.  (Of course, MY timeline has it before 
XX #2-FB, but that's for other reasons.  By themselves, they are 
interchangeable.)

----

> X-Men Unlimited #31/2
> I have Cyclops back from presumed death by this point (just not officially 
returned to the X-Men), so it is possible to have him shopping for presents 
here. And the cane for Kurt doesnt necessarily mean that Kurt was injured  
remember, Kurts a showman!

Indeed  I'm sure Kurt's injuries were not on the creative teams' minds when 
they wrote the issue  they just needed Cyclops to be holding a cane so he 
appeared blind to street thugs.  I engaged in a bit of serendipity placing 
the cane near Kurt's injuries  and yes, since you seem to have savaged my 
timeline by rescuing Cyclops earlier than I did, this placement now works 
just fine.

----

> Uncanny X-Men #390
> This issue, featuring the day of Colossus death, must occur right after 
his appearance in X 109. Cables absence suggests that this issue occurs after 
he cuts his ties to the X-Men in C2 92FB #2. It is probably more than "a few 
weeks" after XMII 107 and must certainly be "a few days" after XMII 108. The 
green grass and apparent warm weather in New York of this issue is 
inconsistent with that holiday setting of X 109.

A thought here  there's nice warm weather here, just as there was in PPSM2 
#34  weather apparently warm enough to hold a carnival in.  Is there a 
chance you could combine the two instances?  Since UX #390 is after Christmas, 
we'd need to push them both up until January 3rd or so, to give Spidey papers 
to grade  but pushing UX #390 up would have happy effects on Cable's 
chronology.

Currently you have the "Gambit & Bishop" series occurring in the midst of 
Cable's "Dark Sisterhood" arc.  Given the intensity with which Cable is 
pursuing the Sisterhood in his book, it doesn't make sense that he'd suddenly 
take a 90-degree turn and hound Stryfe with the intent of killing him, then 
take back up with the Sisterhood.  But if you were to push Colossus' death 
up a few weeks, you'd also by necessity push up the "Gambit & Bishop" series 
(which occurs after his death).  If you leave C2 #89-95 where they are, and 
push G&B #1-6 up, you'd be left with Cable appearing in G&B AFTER he finishes 
off the Sisterhood  which works much better in my mind.

----

> Wolverine v2 #176  FB
> Colossus funeral. Cyclops appears here although he hasnt officially 
returned to the X-Men yet.

And, man, what's with them costumes?  (BTW, can anyone help identify those 
X-types we only spy as legs in this panel?)

----

>X-Men Unlimited #30/2

I'm wondering if you should start to label the content of these stories  it 
took me ages to dope out what "30/2" was referring to (Nightcrawler quitting), 
and the problem only gets worse and worse as X-Men Unlimited gets less and 
less memorable.

----

> X-Force #114
> One day, "six months" after XFO 113, which I place in June.

Sooo, does this mean you agree with my rationale for X-Force's appearance at 
their HQ (during the time they're presumed dead and in disguise) in UX #388?

----

> Gambit and Bishop: Alpha, #1-6
> I suggest that the Beast sticks around the mansion for a short while before 
joining the X-Treme team

This appears obvious  it looks like the Beast, Bishop (and possibly Sage) all 
get left behind  although I'm tempted to believe it's more due to Stryfe's 
mental powers than anything else  witness Bishop's confusion in #1; staying 
behind doesn't appear to have been part of the plan.

> long enough to appear on the TV in X 111, then in W2 162-166.

This I'd dispute.  And dispute I will, soon enough.

----

> JANUARY

> Uncanny X-Men #391
> One "weekend" day.

Looks like they think it's fishin' and campin' weather.  Ah, those Alaskan-
bred Summers boys.

----

> X-Men v2 #111
> Uncanny X-Men #392
> X-Men v2 #112
> Uncanny X-Men #393
> X-Men v2 #113
> (Jephs other "flashback" in X 111, with the televised Beast, I place the 
same day as X 111.)

This can't be  the implication than is that the Beast is around and in 
contact with the X-Men during this story arc  and if so, where was he?  The 
whole POINT of the arc is Jean gathering a team of misfits and neophytes 
because none of the regular X-Men are at hand.  If the Beast was available, 
do you think Jean would have settled for Hector Rendoza and Paulie 
Provenzano?

No no no  the Beast and Bishop have to be well on their way to joining up 
with the X-Treme Team at this point.  To even imply their presence is to 
reduce the team-gathering aspect of the arc to sheer stupidity.

> A comment made in W2 162 suggests that this storyline occurs before W2 162.

Actually the comment was in #166, but  the same logic bind applies.  If 
Beast was at the X-Mansion for W2 #162, and it was AFTER this arc, then where 
was he during the dire emergency and near-world-war of this story?  Sorry  
it doesn't wash.  Both Wolvie #162-166 (and by extension of Wolvie's missing 
eye, #167-169) and the Beast's TV interview in X #111 must occur BEFORE the 
"Eve of Destruction" arc.  The comment in W2 #166 that you reference above, 
as I've mentioned, could very easily be referring to the "Dark Seduction" 
series.

----

> Fantastic Four v3 #46
> The Silver Surfers appearance here is easier to place before the Yandroth 
curse of Def2 1  one argument for putting these FF issues before Def2 2.

I don't understand why placing the Surfer before D2 #1 is any "easier" than 
placing him between D2 #4-5.  Please to explain the "ease" this placement 
grants the Surfer, given that the story arc occurs over the course of one day 
and is essentially erased at its end.

----

> Avengers v3 #43
>  Given Namoritas chronology, Attuma only appears to rule Atlantis in this 
issue. My theory is that he has taken command of some rebel Atlantean forces 
and may be trying to pit the surface world against Atlantis while Namor still 
rules it. After Attumas troops are defeated here, the Avengers resolve to 
contact Namor to find out whats going on, and Attuma regroups and goes for a 
frontal assault on Atlantis, as shown in Def2 2.

It's a good theory, true.  Attuma is forever raising one army or another to 
invade Atlantis, it's not inconceivable that these are simply his men.  But 
given that (a) Busiek's intent is for this to be a full-out Atlantean Army 
attack, and (b) it's entirely plausible to bend Namorita's chronology to make 
this work the other way, I don't see why things can't be structured that way.  
Besides, in A3 #48, Nita herself leads an attack on Kang's men, exhorting the 
troops with "you fought for the traitor Attuma  now fight to redeem 
yourselves!"  Now either she's managed to capture and indenture his private 
(and presumably loyal) army, or the soldiers we saw in #42-43 were the army of 
Atlantis, duly following their leader du jour.  The consistent implication we 
get from the books is that this is Attuma ruling Atlantis.

And as for Nita not asking the FF for help  who says she didn't?  They WERE 
a bit busy with Abraxas at the time.  (I'd also float the notion that as a 
sovereign nation, the FF are unwilling to butt in on what are essentially 
Atlantis' political maneuvers.  You don't see the FF overthrowing other 
dictators, do you?  Perhaps Nita knew that Atlantean problems were for 
Atlanteans to solve, and kept her yap shut, as she knew Namor would ask of 
her.)

----

> Defenders v2 #1 (pages 4 on)
> given the Surfers appearance in FF3 46-49, Id place this after A3 44.

Again, could you explain what it is about the Surfer's brief cameos in FF3 #46 
and 49 that give you evidence that they're before the curse?  I just re-read 
them and didn't find anything to indicate either way.

----

> Defenders v2 #2
> Namorita gets captured by Attuma, so I place this issue after her 
appearances through FF3 50/1. It is unlikely that she escapes Attuma and hangs 
out with the FF without trying to get the FF to help her take Atlantis back, 
and no reference to the plight of Atlantis is made in FF. Thus my theory about 
Attuma under A3 43 above.

Eh.  Like I said above.  Just because no on-panel references were made only 
means that FF had a sloppy editor.  "No reference to" happens all the time 
in the MU, and we all know why and overlook it from time to time.  And we 
never SAW Nita getting captured in D2 #2.  Lack of evidence of one thing 
doesn't make its opposite true  just because we never saw Nita ask for help 
doesn't mean she didn't need help.  And as you say with Cap #48, we didn't 
see Namor ask for help from the Avengers, despite blatantly acknowledging his 
overthrow.  Atlantean tight-lipped pride, baby.

Sean could make the case better than me, but all I can say is  our way does 
work.  And it works without having to "assume" anything about Attuma's army.  
What's the harm in going with it?

(Hmm.  Honestly  IS there harm?  Are there any calendar-related inferences 
making you prefer your way, or is it just personal theory preference?)

Sean, make a better case.  I'm tired.

----

> U.S.Agent v2 #1-3
> The whole plot centers around Warkowskis political ambitions  how can we 
possibly place USA2 during the previous falls election season? Or, can we 
think of a reason why Warkowski would be involved in a re-election campaign a 
few months after the normal election season?  A No-Prize for someone who can 
explain this!

Wow.  Good Lord.  That's a head-scratcher.  And, if I may pour a wee bit of 
salt in an obvious wound, the reason I don't hold to absolute calendar 
placements.  All I can say is, if you can rationalize two presidential 
elections in two years (Graydon Creed's and Robert Kelly's can't be four MU 
years apart), then surely you can rationalize this.  It's topical, baby!

----

>X-Men Unlimited #34/3
>One night and the next day. Full moon.

This would be the Sunfire story, and I see you placed it where you did 
because of the full moon.  But, indulge a bit of naivete on my part  do 
full moons occur on the same date worldwide?  Or if the USA is seeing a full 
moon, does Japan see a quarter-moon, similar to how eclipses aren't absolute?

----

> Cable v2 #100/1
> Does C2 100/2 take place after this, or before C2 97?

After C2 #97-100  it's because of the trouble the T-O virus gives Cable in 
the arc that he decides to get rid of it.

----

> Black Panther v3 #34
> Black Panther v3 #35
> The Surfers appearance with the Defenders here, combined with Iron Fists 
chronology, place these issues between Def2 4 and 5.

Not 100% true  they could also be placed between D2 #10-11, along with BP3 
#38-40.

By the way, I can't seem to find BP3 #30-33 on your timeline.  Am I blind?

----

> FEBRUARY

> X-Treme X-Men #3  FB #3
> The Beast is here, so he has reconnoitered with the team following the 
convalescence mentioned in W2 167-FB. The X-Treme team leaves for Spain and 
is next seen in XX 1-FB.

Everything you say is true, but again, your placement is off  as I said 
above, the Beast, Bishop and Sage need to be well out of Jean's reach by X 
#111  otherwise she would have recruited them.

----

> Captain America v3 #45-48
> if Namors so determined to get Atlantis back, why doesnt he enlist the 
Assemblers to kick barbarian butt? Stupid pride? Hes not too proud to get 
the Defenders to do it...

Atlantean tight-lipped honor, baby.  He only wants the Defenders to help 
because he partially blames them for causing him to lose his kingdom  and as 
we see in D2 #5, Namor's absolutely willing and able to take back his kingdom 
alone.

----

> Thunderbolts #54
> It is "two days" after TB 53. It is "a couple of weeks"after Clint Barton 
was put in prison, but this may be a reference to a transfer to Seagate after 
a few months spent being held elsewhere.

I'd go with this rationale.

----

> Iron Man v3 #46-48
> Goliath cameos here. Tom Brevoort has stated that this whole story was 
intended as a sequel to A:UI, in which Hank appeared as Yellowjacket. Ultrons 
chronology dictates this placement, and Sun-Taos situation doesnt warrant a 
gap between pages 15 and 16 as Sean and Jeph suggest. As Tom was editor of 
this story, Im inclined to go with his chronology (sorry, guys). Hank 
re-donning his Goliath costume here isnt a critical problem in my opinion, 
as this story occurs before Hanks explanation to Wanda in A3 45 about his 
resolution to maintain the Yellowjacket identity (a bit more serious a tone 
than he had in A:UI).

Eh.  I've been over this and over this.  You make good points, but  Sean, 
sic'im!

--

> X-Force #121-122
> Placement here, before A3 45 (and also Brotherhood #8), is based on Jephs 
work.

Which, as far as I can remember, was based on nothing solid at all.  ;)

----

> Avengers v3 #45
> We also have Cap bandaged up throughout the issue  Cap has made several 
appearances without bandages since A3 44. I think it makes more sense if he 
got the injuries from being dropped hard  accidentally  by Graviton (TB 58), 
rather than radiation (A3 44). Hawkeyes appearance in CA3 50/6 nixes the 
placement of Caps "death" just prior to this story.

Actually, no it doesn't.  While I agree with you that Cap's bandages must be 
the result of something,  his conversation with the general indicates that 
that "something" was indeed radiation-based  and that infamous nuke in Cap 
#50 fits the bill quite well indeed.

And if the only thing stopping you from slotting CA3 #50-4-6 here is HAWKEYE'S 
presence, let me point out that between TB #63-65  where we stand right now 
(#64 takes place on Counter-Earth)  is the perfect time for Hawk to cameo.  
At the end of #63, he is given his costume and quiver back, and the chain 
gang he's attached to is busted  the "undercover-slash-prison-escapee" 
portion of his assignment is over.  From #65 on there's a clear shift in 
Hawkeye's mission's tone  Hawkeye and Songbird are up-front with their 
motives and under their own steam.  Upon hearing news of Cap's death, 
Hawkeye could EASILY have made it back to the remembrance ceremony to be 
interviewed between #63-65.

Slotting Cap's "death" here makes his bandaged state in A3 #45 serve as a 
throwaway "resurrection" reference  and you know in your heart of hearts 
that Marvel will never ever address this dangling plot thread.  This is the 
best chance you'll ever have to even imply some closure.   And, like I say, 
Hawkeye is perfectly available  you've already slotted TB #63-65 on opposite 
sides of the Kang War independently of this.  Think about it.

----

> MARCH

> Amazing Spider-Man v2 #32
> Amazing Spider-Man v2 #33
> Amazing Spider-Man v2 #34
> Amazing Spider-Man v2 #35
> ** Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36 **
> Amazing Spider-Man v2 #37
> Amazing Spider-Man v2 #38

Whoopsie.

----

> Cable v2 #101-104
> C2 101-104 seem to take place over the course of a few days, ending "two 
hundred days" after 9-11, or March 31.

which means, given the "pandemonium on a plane" sequence in Soldier X #1, 
the Marvel Universe is still terrorized by shoe bombers a full two-and-a-half 
years after its WTC disaster.

----

> APRIL

> Captain America v3 #50/4-6
> Hawkeye is televised, wearing costume and brandishing quiver and arrows, 
so this must occur after the conclusion of the covert operation storyline in 
TB 75. Iron Man is not wearing the Grell-Ryan armor; hes in the transitional 
armor that lasted from IM3 44 through 49. Im willing to believe that hes 
working kinks out of the Grell-Ryan armor.. Tony has been shown to switch 
armors while new ones are being tweaked (witness A:UI). Given the timing of 
Thunderbolts and Hawkeyes chronology, its hard to place this story before 
the first introduction of the Grell-Ryan armor in A3 52.

but not impossible.  Given the hole in Hawk's chronology I pointed out above, 
moving the funeral back would mean we don't run into this problem with Iron 
Man's armor.

> Im placing Thor here during his three-week absence from the Avengers 
between A3 54 and 55.

despite assurances in #55 that they haven't seen one sign of him since Kang's 
defeat in #54.  Another wrinkle that would be solved by moving the funeral 
back before the War.

> We see that the Beast is not cat-like, so this story occurs before X-Treme 
X-Men: Savage Land #1 and New X-Men #114. A little time is needed since XX 3 
for Hank to recover enough to attend this funeral, which Storm also attends, 
probably while getting Hank at the mansion for the mission in XX 1-4.

And now the implication is that Storm shows up to look in on Hank, Hank 
mutates fully over the course of a day or two (despite not having mutated 
one whit since his jump-start in XX #3, which you have almost a full month 
ago), gains 400 pounds and loses a finger on each hand, and still Storm deems 
him fit enough to go off on this XX:SL mission?  And the rest of his concerned 
teammates LET him go?  This doesn't really jibe with me.  Again, another 
wrinkle that would be solved by moving Cap's funeral back before the Kang 
War  Storm would then be at the mansion dropping Beast OFF, not picking him 
up, which would give him plenty of time  the duration of the entire Kang 
War  to mutate and become comfortable with his new form.

Again, if Hawkeye is the only thing holding you back  go for it.

----

> New X-Men #114-116
> Scott and Jean have barely touched each other for "five months." This means 
that it must be five months or more since the Search for Cyclops series, which 
had to take place before 9-11.

Which means that this book could be slid back anywhere to Feb. 10th.  Just 
sayin'.  ;)

----

> Deadline #1
> The headline, "Captain America: Whos Under the Mask Now?," suggests that 
Cap has resurfaced publicly after his presumed "death,"although some believe 
that a new man has taken the identity (its happened before).

This is good!  I had overlooked the "now" aspect of the headline.  Although, 
this in and of itself isn't an indicator that Cap has JUST come back to life  
indeed, even if Cap #50 is placed just before the Kang War, this news headline 
could STILL run where you have it  this would likely be the first chance the 
news media has to cover Cap's resurrection, given the Kang War would have 
taken up their time prior to this point

> Deadline #2
> Batroc has been struck by an arrow fired by Hawkeye, so this story must 
occur after TB 75.

What's this?  I'm confused  I don't have the issue.  Is this a news story?

> The battle between Spidey and Doc Ock is not the one shown in PP:SM 41  the 
setting and choreography dont match. So whats the scoop?

Could it be the battles from "Quality of Life" or the recent ASM2 arc?

----

> Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #44-46
> PPSM2 44-46 span about four days, the third of which is a school day. Rain, 
which I interpret as spring rain (April showers?). It is unlikely that the 
Spidey/Morlun fight (ASM2 32-38) occurs between PPSM2 44 and 45.

Hmm.  Just being nosy here, as I know nothing of Spidey  but didn't Sean say 
that Spidey was all bandaged in #45?  From his e-mails, I got the impression 
that the issue specifically SAID he was bandaged from his fight with Morlun.  
Yes?  No?

----

> X-Men Unlimited #31/3
> One night and the next morning. Not sure of Nates order of appearance 
here. Jeph and Russ appear to disagree. Before X-Man #71 or between X-Man 
#74 and #75?

Well, the story was published after X-Man #75, and the little caption says 
"This story takes place prior to X-Men #75.  Other than that, I don't think 
it matter all that much  although I'm simply curious how Russ arrived at his 
decision to move the issue so far back.

----

> X-Men Unlimited #36/3 (pages 7-12)
> This story presumably ends "three weeks" after XU 36/3 pg. 5-7, during which 
time the Beast has devoted himself to the care of the mutated cat, leaving no 
room for other adventures. But Hanks reference to "reports of Third Species 
radicals" that he actually encounters in X 01 means the whole XU 36/3 story 
would need to be compressed. I place the conclusion here, before the Beast 
appears in A2 56-FB. Green grass and trees in Westchester.

You know, if you moved Cap's funeral back before the Kang War (he said, 
sounding like a broken record), you give the Beast almost a month longer to 
be in his catlike form  thus eliminating the need to compress this story.  
The Beast could easily be caring for the cat while the Kang war rages, because 
it's ALL HE CAN DO -- still pained and adjusting to his cat-form.  This story 
could take place before the XX:SL series.

(Also, I'm not sure if the story mandates that Hank be there for the cat for 
three weeks solid  he could have possibly gone on other adventure from time 
to time, leaving the cat in the medical center and returning to check up on 
her.  The XX:SL adventure, for one, only takes a day and a night, right?)

----

> Amazing Spider-Man v2 #39-42
> Dr. Strange cameos.

Your placement of this here means that Dr. Strange is still under the 
Defenders' curse at this point.  Is that feasible?

----

> X-Treme X-Men #5 (beginning)
> Xaviers TV appearance from New X-Men #116 is rebroadcast here, but it may 
be weeks after Xavier reveals his secret.

I don't think that's a rebroadcast so much as a recording playing in the 
X-Tremers' funky multimedia goggles.  But I agree that the notion that it's 
been a while since the original outing  it helps immensely in relieving the 
tight spacing of the X-Treme series.

----

> Uncanny X-Men #395-398
> I figure these issues span around five days and we see full moons in both 
titles (although a crescent moon appears in XX 6).

You might want to go with the crescent moon and place the XX arc after the UX 
arc  UX #397-398 are set JUST after Xavier's outing  the London team doesn't 
even know it's occurred yet, which means that #395-396 could take place as 
early as DURING X #116.  Also, indications in X #117 are that not much time 
has passed since #116, so it makes more sense to place ONLY X@2001 and UX 
#395-398 into the gap between X #116-117, and place the XX arc afterwards  
relying on that crescent moon rather than the full moon, and inferring from 
dialogue in XX #5 that the X-Treme team is behind the times because they've 
been helping out cleaning up Genosha.

----

> New X-Men #117
>  It must be long enough after X 116 for mutants to gather and enroll at 
Xaviers.

Not true  in X #114, Xavier says "new school term starts Monday", implying 
that the students are already enrolled and the semester begins in under a 
week.  (Although, Xavier's makes no effort to conform to human schooling 
standards, so the semester-start doesn't necessarily have to be in Sept. or 
Jan.)  On the other hand, nothing in X 3117 says that it's the first day of 
school either.  The only reliable evidence we have of time passing is that 
Wolverine has been meditating in the woods for four days straight following 
his severe injuries in #116.  That leads me to place #117 as close as possible 
to #116  although I have to make the concession that Wolvie appears in the 
annual and UX #396-398 between the two issues.

----

> MAY

> Cyclops #1-4

Just out of curiosity, what made you place these issues here as opposed to 
before X #114?  The way Prof. X speaks to Cyclops about his mental state, 
and urges him to take time off, one gets the distinct impression that Scott 
hasn't been back from the dead (or at least not back with the X-Men) for very 
long.  That combined with the seated Prof. X leads me to place this issue 
before X #114.  By #126, the only thing wrong with Cyclops is that he and 
Jean are estranged, which frankly is none of Xavier's business.

----

> X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001/2
> One night. Full moon, perhaps the same one as in XXM 10-17, UX 401-407, and 
Order #2. This story must occur before XMU 36/1.

Again  this is NOT a full moon.  This is a TAPED IMAGE that Kitty Pryde is 
watching on an enormous screen.  That's Hammer Bay, prior to the destruction 
of Genosha  the same image turns up in XU #36/1.  Essentially, we have NO 
placement info for this story, except that it's after X #116 and before XU 
#36/1.

----

> Uncanny X-Men #401-407
> These issues span four days.

Technically, nothing is holding #401 closely to the rest of the arc.  The 
X-Men have no wind of what Banshee is up to by issue's end, and in #401 
Banshee is clearly still putting together his army  a process that's done, 
their conditioning absolute, by the beginning of #402.

----

> Uncanny X-Men Annual 2001
> This story likely occurs between UX 407 and 408.

Why?  As I read it, it likely occurs between #400-401  basically with regards 
to publication time-frame (seven months' difference?), and the team's comments 
on Stacy as a "newbie" (she JUST joined in #400).  As you say, there are no 
temporal references here to indicate it takes place anywhere ELSE but the gap 
it was published into.

> The Hood #1
> There is also a reference to an explosion at ESU involving mutants; is this 
a reference to an event depicted elsewhere?

Not necessarily, but this COULD be tied into the mutants slayings on the ESU 
campus in Chamber #1.

----

> Black Panther v3 #41-45
> Black Panther and Iron Man accidentally put a large hole in the White 
House. Placing that incident here would help justify Wasps pointing out the 
reconstruction in A3 #57.

Except that if you read A3 #57, the Wasp is referring to the destruction of 
the Kang War.  Nonetheless, I agree with placement here relative to Avengers, 
Thor, and Iron Man.

> I have Wolverine here during the more than two weeks that separate UX 409 
pg. 11 and 14.

I generally frown on placing story arcs amid other story arcs, mainly to 
improve the ordered READING of all the books  must things fall this way?  
(Yes, I know they CAN, without major incident.  I'm asking, MUST they?  If one 
were to sit down and read all of Wolvie's appearances, wouldn't this placement 
confuse them?)

----

> (Placement of A3 57 is uncertain at this point. It remains to be seen how 
the Avengers will figure into the Asgard-on-earth plot line begun in T2 51 
below.)

Also, it remains to be seen how Black Panther's guest-appearances fit into 
and around the current "Death of the Black Panther" arc in BP3 #48-50.

----

> JULY

> X-Men Unlimited #36/2
> Im not sure why Jeph divided this story between pages 11 and 12, but it 
made more sense to me to occur within the span of a few days or so, sometime 
after X 126, and perhaps, as Jeph suggests, before UX 410.

Uhm, because for the bulk of the story MAGNETO IS ALIVE AND WELL?  You have 
to place the bulk of the story around the time of X #110/2, during Magneto's 
US recruitment drive and before his crippling at Wolvie's hands  it even 
says "this story takes place before New X-Men #114" on page one.  The reason 
I divided it and placed the final page after X #126 is because that page 
shows picketers at the gates and school in session  and Xavier in his own 
body.  There isn't anywhere except after X #126 to place that sort of thing, 
and Magneto's been dead for months by that point.  One has to assume that the 
refugees didn't go straight to Xavier's after all.

----

> AUGUST

Nothing for August, eh?  Not yet at any rate.

----

> SEPTEMBER

> Chamber #1-4
> Jonathan at college, perhaps at the beginning of the school year. I dont 
have this series (only #1 and #2 published to date), so some help would be 
great. If necessary, these issues (and UX 410-412) could be moved up to June, 
with Chamber starting college during a summer semester.

I've only read #1, but there is a time gap between the ESU mutant murders 
(which as I mentioned could be linked to The Hood #1) and Jono's decision to 
go to ESU, which was prompted by those murders.  And yes, it could very easily 
be a summer session.

----

> Uncanny X-Men #410-412
>UX 410-412 occur during the course of a day, a "year" after Mutant X #32.

I'm not sure where you get this "year" figure from, but the event isn't MX 
#32, but XF #149.  Havok's body was left on our earth, while his spirit was 
pushed into the body of his Mutant-X-world counterpart in MX #1.  That 
explains why Havok is mindless  his spirit is literally elsewhere, still 
tumbling through the void after MX #32.  But his body's been here the whole 
time  so the "year" figure refers to X-Factor #149.

By the way, if you move Chamber #1-4 back to a summer session, you can move 
UX #410-412 back closer to #409, which is captioned "July".  One gets the 
feeling that X-events these days are occurring close to one another and at a 
fast clip, given that in this Wednesday's X #132, Xavier heads back to 
Genosha, and finds survivors

----

And there you have it, Paul -- my first run-through's comments.  I'll give 
it a few more goes-through in the next few days, comparing various characters' 
relative chronologies to prior suppositions, and I'll try to help you out 
with temporal references in the books I have.

But I'd appreciate if you could give ME some feedback, touching on the points 
I made  I realize that it's YOUR calendar, but I'd like to see if my feedback 
has any practical effect.

I'll also keep brainstorming ways that 9/11 can occur on, well, 9/11.  Must 
MaxSec occur in October?

In closing, by the way: GREAT WORK!

	-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Jeph's Comments, Critiques, and Corrections - round one
Posted by Antonio Gavio on September 09, 2002 at 16:31:12:
In Reply to: Jeph's Comments, Critiques, and Corrections - round one
posted by Jeph! on September 09, 2002 at 13:06:31:

> > Deadline #2
> > Batroc has been struck by an arrow fired by Hawkeye, so this story must 
occur after TB 75.

> What's this?  I'm confused  I don't have the issue.  Is this a news story?

> > The battle between Spidey and Doc Ock is not the one shown in PP:SM 41  
the setting and choreography dont match. So whats the scoop?

> Could it be the battles from "Quality of Life" or the recent ASM2 arc?

Nope. The battle in 'Deadline' happens at night in New York whereas the one 
in 'Quality of Life' occurs during daylight and the other in the recent ASM2 
arc happens in L.A. By the way 'Quality of Life' shows Curt Connors missing 
an arm when he was given his arm back by Hammerhead in 'Spider-Man: Lifeline'.

> > Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #44-46
> > PPSM2 44-46 span about four days, the third of which is a school day. 
Rain, which I interpret as spring rain (April showers?). It is unlikely that 
the Spidey/Morlun fight (ASM2 32-38) occurs between PPSM2 44 and 45.

> Hmm.  Just being nosy here, as I know nothing of Spidey  but didn't Sean 
say that Spidey was all bandaged in #45?  From his e-mails, I got the 
impression that the issue specifically SAID he was bandaged from his fight 
with Morlun.  Yes?  No?

Nope either. He is actually bandaged from his fight with the Green Goblin in 
issue #44.

			*	*	*

Re: Jeph's Comments, Critiques, and Corrections - round one
Posted by DCW3 on September 10, 2002 at 02:46:24:
In Reply to: Jeph's Comments, Critiques, and Corrections - round one
posted by Jeph! on September 09, 2002 at 13:06:31:

 > But, indulge a bit of naivete on my part  do full moons occur on the same 
date worldwide?

Yes. Yes, they do. That's how come they can put them on calendars and how 
they determine when Easter falls.

(Not that that really matters much, but I figure I gotta contribute SOMETHING 
to this Kang War mess...)

Oh, and Jeph, three cheers on your "chronology seminar." I don't know about 
the "constant cosmic flux," but I wholeheartedly agree with your chronology 
philosophy, if my opinion counts for anything.

			*	*	*

Gratitude Fever!
Posted by Jeph! on September 12, 2002 at 00:44:00:
In Reply to: Re: Jeph's Comments, Critiques, and Corrections - round one
posted by DCW3 on September 10, 2002 at 02:46:24:

Thanks, and thanks.  I appreciate it.  (Both the info on moons and the words 
of support.)

    -Jeph!
who will SHOW his gratitude by going to SLEEP now, and halting his mad 
rampage of postings with "Fever!" in the title.

			*	*	*

A couple of quick replies
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 10, 2002 at 07:17:09:
In Reply to: Jeph's Comments, Critiques, and Corrections - round one
posted by Jeph! on September 09, 2002 at 13:06:31:

> > Deadline #2
> > Batroc has been struck by an arrow fired by Hawkeye, so this story must 
occur after TB 75.

> What's this?  I'm confused  I don't have the issue.  Is this a news story?

Batroc is shown getting an arrow taken out of his leg.  It's stated explicitly 
that it was fired by Hawkeye.  This is real time, not a news story or 
flashback.

> > Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #44-46
> > PPSM2 44-46 span about four days, the third of which is a school day. 
Rain, which I interpret as spring rain (April showers?). It is unlikely that 
the Spidey/Morlun fight (ASM2 32-38) occurs between PPSM2 44 and 45.

> Hmm.  Just being nosy here, as I know nothing of Spidey  but didn't Sean 
say that Spidey was all bandaged in #45?  From his e-mails, I got the 
impression that the issue specifically SAID he was bandaged from his fight 
with Morlun.  Yes?  No?

No such reference.  Peter has a black eye and a couple of band-aids on his 
face.  I think Morlun messed him up a bit more than that.  There's no reason 
to believe the injuries were from anything other than Spidey's fight with the 
Goblin the preceding issue.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Reply Fever!
Posted by Jeph! on September 12, 2002 at 00:40:59:
In Reply to: A couple of quick replies
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 10, 2002 at 07:17:09:

> Batroc is shown getting an arrow taken out of his leg.  It's stated 
explicitly that it was fired by Hawkeye.  This is real time, not a news story 
or flashback.

Gotcha.  Thanks.

> > > Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #44-46
> > > PPSM2 44-46 span about four days, the third of which is a school day. 
Rain, which I interpret as spring rain (April showers?). It is unlikely that 
the Spidey/Morlun fight (ASM2 32-38) occurs between PPSM2 44 and 45.

> > Hmm.  Just being nosy here, as I know nothing of Spidey  but didn't Sean 
say that Spidey was all bandaged in #45?  From his e-mails, I got the 
impression that the issue specifically SAID he was bandaged from his fight 
with Morlun.  Yes?  No?

> No such reference.  Peter has a black eye and a couple of band-aids on his 
face.  I think Morlun messed him up a bit more than that.  There's no reason 
to believe the injuries were from anything other than Spidey's fight with the 
Goblin the preceding issue.

Thanks for the info.  Sean was, ha-ha, trying to convince me that the bruises 
were SUPPOSED to be from the Morlun fight, and not having the issues I took 
him at face value.

::shakes fist at Sean::

I'll adjust my chronology-in-progress accordingly.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Spidey's bandages
Posted by SKleefeld on September 12, 2002 at 11:14:25:
In Reply to: Reply Fever!
posted by Jeph! on September 12, 2002 at 00:40:59:

> Thanks for the info.  Sean was, ha-ha, trying to convince me that the 
bruises were SUPPOSED to be from the Morlun fight, and not having the issues 
I took him at face value.

> ::shakes fist at Sean::

Now hold on a minute there!

OK, first there's no indication AT ANY POINT IN THE STORY that says where 
Peter got battered and bruised from. For all we know, he slipped on a bar of 
soap in the shower that morning. Remember my post earlier about not assuming 
anything?

Sure, he COULD be wearing the bandages from the battle with Green Goblin in 
the previous issue, but I don't think it was a big enough battle to warrant 
it. However, we do know CONCLUSIVELY that Peter was battered enough by Morlun 
to doctor himself up. We're shown that expressly. 

Coincidentally or not, the bandages are pretty close to the same place in 
both series. And since we don't see any more bandages in ASM outside of those 
Morlun issues, I thought it made sense to put the Green Goblin story around 
that fight (which, you recall, only lasted maybe two days) so we can use the 
bandages in Peter Parker to show that he's still hurt, but healing.

Matter of interpretation, obviously, but my way makes more sense to me. 
(Otherwise, I wouldn't have put it to Jeph in the first place!) Why bash up 
Peter to the point of needing bandages twice, when once is sufficient?

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Bandage Fever!
Posted by Jeph! on September 12, 2002 at 20:23:40:
In Reply to: Spidey's bandages
posted by SKleefeld on September 12, 2002 at 11:14:25:

> OK, first there's no indication AT ANY POINT IN THE STORY that says where 
Peter got battered and bruised from.

> Sure, he COULD be wearing the bandages from the battle with Green Goblin 
in the previous issue, but I don't think it was a big enough battle to warrant 
it. However, we do know CONCLUSIVELY that Peter was battered enough by Morlun 
to doctor himself up. We're shown that expressly. 

> Coincidentally or not, the bandages are pretty close to the same place in 
both series.

> Matter of interpretation, obviously, but my way makes more sense to me. 
(Otherwise, I wouldn't have put it to Jeph in the first place!) Why bash up 
Peter to the point of needing bandages twice, when once is sufficient?

Uhm, because he's Spider-Man?  He constantly gets in fights?

Hmm.  I'm going to let those who care about Spidey fight this one out -- I 
don't own any of the books, and my contribution would be limited to 
"publication order" and "artist's intent."

As in, ASM2 #38 came out a good five months before PPSM2 #45.  What are the 
odds that the writer and artist of PPSM had Spidey's Morlun battle in mind 
when they drew those bandages?

You're effectively saying "I don't like what the creators of this book are 
trying to tell me -- I choose to interpret it differently."

Think it over -- and, while you're at it, check PPSM2 #35-44 for references 
that Aunt May either does or does not know that Peter is Spidey.  That would 
sink or swim your theory right there.

That's about all the help I can be on that.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Spidey's bandages
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 12, 2002 at 21:54:32:
In Reply to: Spidey's bandages
posted by SKleefeld on September 12, 2002 at 11:14:25:

> OK, first there's no indication AT ANY POINT IN THE STORY that says where 
Peter got battered and bruised from. For all we know, he slipped on a bar of 
soap in the shower that morning. Remember my post earlier about not assuming 
anything?

> Sure, he COULD be wearing the bandages from the battle with Green Goblin in 
the previous issue, but I don't think it was a big enough battle to warrant 
it. However, we do know CONCLUSIVELY that Peter was battered enough by Morlun 
to doctor himself up. We're shown that expressly. 

> Coincidentally or not, the bandages are pretty close to the same place in 
both series. And since we don't see any more bandages in ASM outside of those 
Morlun issues, I thought it made sense to put the Green Goblin story around 
that fight (which, you recall, only lasted maybe two days) so we can use the 
bandages in Peter Parker to show that he's still hurt, but healing.

> Matter of interpretation, obviously, but my way makes more sense to me. 
(Otherwise, I wouldn't have put it to Jeph in the first place!) Why bash up 
Peter to the point of needing bandages twice, when once is sufficient?

Uh oh.  I'm not sure what you mean by "sufficient."  Peter is a superhero 
who gets into battles and gets hurt all the time.  I'm not keen on the idea 
that we need to minimize the number of times he's been injured just for the 
sake of minimizing.

Putting ASM2 32-38 between PPSM2 44 and 45 means taking comics that were 
published a year before and sticking them between two issues of a story arc.  
I think you'd need pretty strong evidence in the way of character development, 
plotlines, or, yes, even prominent temporal references, to do this.  Consider 
the character's chronology here as we go from PPSM 44 to ASM2 32-38 to PPSM2 
45.  Peter's obsessing about the Goblin as PPSM2 45 opens, suggesting that 
his encounter the previous issue has just happened and hasn't been interrupted 
by the whole Morlun and Aunt May discovery of the secret ID plot, which 
certainly would have given him a lot more to dwell on.

Besides, take a good look at Pete himself.  His facial bandage in ASM2 37 is 
across the bridge of his nose and he has no black eye.  In ASM2 38 he's 
ditched that last facial bandage.  In PPSM 45 there he is with a black eye 
and bandage on his cheek.  It just doesn't flow from the perspective of the 
character, who we all know takes center stage. ;)

I'm going to have to call you on this one, Sean.  

			*	*	*

Re: Spidey's bandages
Posted by Antonio Gavio on September 13, 2002 at 02:50:58:
In Reply to: Re: Spidey's bandages
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 12, 2002 at 21:54:32:

I agree with Paul here. I don't see the reasoning putting ASM2 32-38 between 
PPSM2 44 and 45 to accomodate PPSM2 44 to happen before the 'Morlun and Aunt 
May discovery of the secret ID' plot. There's no indication AT ANY POINT in 
issue 44 suggesting that aunt May doesn't know Peter's secret already, and by 
issue 45 she does knows it. Then there's the rainstorm throughout the whole 
Goblin story arc; let's say we split it and drop ASM2 32-38 in the middle. 
How was it then? The Goblin jumps on Spider-Man during a raimstorm, then 
waits for the next rainstorm to keep his attack on Spidey? I'd rather 
minimize the number of rainstorms than the times a superhero uses bandages. 

 And if all the effort of this site is supposed to help readers to follow 
the characters of the stories smoothly, how many readers are going to 
remember that the Green Goblin made a bet to Peter for five bucks and a 
pizza in issue 44 after reading seven other issues with a different story 
arc? After those issues we would be taking out a lot of the impact of the 
story. What for? Just to minimize bandages?

Or what about this one: In issue 44 Peter tells aunt May that he keeps 'having 
this dream' and in issue 45 he in fact keeps having that dream.

Then there's the butt Peter gives Norman in issue 44 which accounts for 
Peter's bandage on his forehead in issues 45-46. 

If we can fit ASM2 32-38 in between PPSM2 44 and 45 then we can just start 
pushing elephants to get through a needle's eye. You know, they might as well 
make it.

			*	*	*

Re: Spidey's bandages
Posted by SKleefeld on September 13, 2002 at 08:09:22:
In Reply to: Re: Spidey's bandages 
posted by Antonio Gavio on September 13, 2002 at 02:50:58:

> > 
> > > Matter of interpretation, obviously, but my way makes more sense to me. 
(Otherwise, I wouldn't have put it to Jeph in the first place!) Why bash up 
Peter to the point of needing bandages twice, when once is sufficient?

> > 
> > Uh oh.  I'm not sure what you mean by "sufficient."  Peter is a superhero 
who gets into battles and gets hurt all the time.  I'm not keen on the idea 
that we need to minimize the number of times he's been injured just for the 
sake of minimizing.

> > Putting ASM2 32-38 between PPSM2 44 and 45 means taking comics that were 
published a year before and sticking them between two issues of a story arc.  
I think you'd need pretty strong evidence in the way of character development, 
plotlines, or, yes, even prominent temporal references, to do this.  Consider 
the character's chronology here as we go from PPSM 44 to ASM2 32-38 to PPSM2 
45.  Peter's obsessing about the Goblin as PPSM2 45 opens, suggesting that 
his encounter the previous issue has just happened and hasn't been interrupted 
by the whole Morlun and Aunt May discovery of the secret ID plot, which 
certainly would have given him a lot more to dwell on.

> > Besides, take a good look at Pete himself.  His facial bandage in ASM2 
37 is across the bridge of his nose and he has no black eye.  In ASM2 38 he's 
ditched that last facial bandage.  In PPSM 45 there he is with a black eye 
and bandage on his cheek.  It just doesn't flow from the perspective of the 
character, who we all know takes center stage. ;)

> > I'm going to have to call you on this one, Sean.  (Sorry.)

This isn't an issue I'm prepared to push for like I have with Iron Man and 
Goliath, but my minimizing of bandages is reasoned. 

How many fights has Spider-Man (or any other hero) gotten in? Almost as many 
as he has appearances. And how many of those fights resulted in Peter needing 
some kind, any kind of medical attention?

Well, I don't have a number offhand but it's a proportionally infinitesible 
number. But we're expressly shown that Morlun gives Peter enough of a bashing 
to warrant bandages, which are all mysteriously and unceremoniously omitted by 
that Spring Break story. With my placement of the Goblin story, I kept Peter's 
bandages in place long enough for his wounds to actually heal.

Coupled with Aunt May knowing Peter is Spider-Man in PP #45, but not 
necessarily #44, I took that as Jenkins' indication of placement.

Like I said, I think it makes sense because I was finding very few references 
to tie either of the Spidey books to each other, much less anything else. 
Couching the Morlun story inside of the Goblin one seems to work, but if 
there's sufficient reason to move those stories, I won't press the issue.

>  And if all the effort of this site is supposed to help readers to follow 
the characters of the stories smoothly, how many readers are going to remember 
that the Green Goblin made a bet to Peter for five bucks and a pizza in issue 
44 after reading seven other issues with a different story arc? After those 
issues we would be taking out a lot of the impact of the story. What for? Just 
to minimize bandages?

Well, we've already gone over that moving stuff around just for the sake of 
a story's impact doesn't work. (See an earlier discussion on Captain America's 
death.)

And I wasn't giving that placement in order to minimize the bandages, but 
using the bandages in order to make some sense out of the books. Like I said, 
there are very few ways to tie the Spidey books together in any way, and I 
was using the bandages to do that.

Again, if there's sufficient evidence that that's not the case, I won't argue 
the point.

> Or what about this one: In issue 44 Peter tells aunt May that he keeps 
'having this dream' and in issue 45 he in fact keeps having that dream.

Like I said earlier, though, the Morlun story only takes a couple of days. I 
don't think it's a stretch to have Peter have the same dream an extra two 
times.

> Then there's the butt Peter gives Norman in issue 44 which accounts for 
Peter's bandage on his forehead in issues 45-46. 

It's possible, sure. But it's also possible that Peter conked his head on the 
cupboard when he was getting a bowl for breakfast. We aren't given a specific 
reason for the bandages, and I simply took an existing solution for them.

> If we can fit ASM2 32-38 in between PPSM2 44 and 45 then we can just start 
pushing elephants to get through a needle's eye. You know, they might as well 
make it.

It's not THAT much of a stretch. In fact, I have yet to see ANY evidence that 
my version CAN'T happen. I'm not saying that my way is absolutely correct or 
anything, simply that I haven't seen any reason it can't or shouldn't happen 
that way.

Look, we're going to have to determine how Peter Parker fits in next to 
Amazing Spider-Man anyway. We've got character cross-overs all over the 
place. I gave my interpretation. If somebody else would like to offer a 
reasoned explanation for both titles, go for it.

Hmmm. Scanning back through my post, I sound a little bitter and defensive. 
That's not the case. I just haven't seen anyone present any alternatives. 
It's an issue that needs to be resolved, and no one else has really stepped 
up to the plate.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Jeph's Comments, Critiques, and Corrections - round one
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 14, 2002 at 09:24:04:
In Reply to: Jeph's Comments, Critiques, and Corrections - round one
posted by Jeph! on September 09, 2002 at 13:06:31:

> > Amazing Spider-Man v2 #32
> > Amazing Spider-Man v2 #33
> > Amazing Spider-Man v2 #34
> > Amazing Spider-Man v2 #35
> > ** Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36 **
> > Amazing Spider-Man v2 #37
> > Amazing Spider-Man v2 #38
> Whoopsie.

You want to insert ASM2 36 -- the 9-11 story -- here?  Whoopsie.

(Just a quick note here.  I'm digesting everything else.  Pass the Pepto!)

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Jeph's Comments, Critiques, and Corrections - round one
Posted by Jeph! on September 14, 2002 at 12:06:02:
In Reply to: Re: Jeph's Comments, Critiques, and Corrections - round one
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 14, 2002 at 09:24:04:

No no -- YOU had it there, as well as in its other slot.  I was letting you 
know to remove it from the 32-38 run.

Whoopsie.  ;)

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Jeph's Comments, Critiques, and Corrections - round one
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 14, 2002 at 22:08:10:
In Reply to: Re: Jeph's Comments, Critiques, and Corrections - round one
posted by Jeph! on September 14, 2002 at 12:06:02:

Double whoopsie.

			*	*	*

Re: Here it is, folks!  Pages from the MU Calendar!
Posted by Antonio Gavio on September 09, 2002 at 15:37:09:
In Reply to: Here it is, folks!  Pages from the MU Calendar!
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 08, 2002 at 16:03:16:

There are a few places were mistakes can be found: 

> SEPTEMBER		

---

> Hulk Annual 2000
> 	One day and the next day.  She-Hulk hasnt left the Avengers yet and 
Wonder Man is not present.  I place this annual sometime between A3 30 and 31, 
perhaps during the week between HC 3 and A3 31.

The Vision just returns to the Avengers in A3 31, so Hulk Annual 2000 must 
occur after it, not before.

---

> Avengers v3 #32
> 	One day, a few days after TB 42 and A3 31.  This issue must occur 
after CA3 31, H 00, and BP3 23.  IM 99 is referred to as having occurred 
recently.

> Thunderbolts #43  FB
> 	Same day as A3 32.

> Thunderbolts #43
> 	Same day as A3 32 and TB 42.  It is months after Av 399.

Same day as TB 42? How? A3 32 happens 'a few days' after TB 42 as you already 
pointed out before.

This whole segment should read like this:

A3 32 pages 1-10pan2
     One day, a few days after TB 42 and A3 31.  This issue must occur after 
CA3 31, H 00, and BP3 23.  IM 99 is referred to as having occurred 
recently.
     Summer afternoon. She-Hulk leaves the Avengers as Black Widow comes to 
alert them about Madame Masque.

TB 43-FB
     Same day as A3 32 pages 1-10pan2. Black Widow has a run-in with Maggia 
faction and Cyclone.

TB 43 pages 1-13
     Same night as TB 43-FB into the next morning. Black Widow contacts the 
Thunderbolts. It is months after Av 399.

A3 32 page 10pan3 - page 22
     Same day as end of TB 43 pages 1-13. Avengers in Nevada desert face Grim 
Reaper and Nefaria.

TB 43 pages 14-22
     Same day as A3 32 page 10pan3 - page 22. Thunderbolts in Central America.

And then:

> Avengers v3 #33
> 	Same day as TB 43.  Green grass and trees in New Jersey.  Full moon.

> Thunderbolts #44
> 	Same night as A3 33.  Green trees in Alberta.  Full moon.

> Avengers v3 #34
> 	Same night as TB 44, sometime before MAXSEC 1.  It is weeks before 
TB 47.  Full moon.

> Thunderbolts #45  FB
> 	Same night as A3 34.  It is three weeks before TB 45.

---

> OCTOBER

> Deadpool v2 #44
> 	One day.  It is after IM 00.  We see green grass and trees.

> Black Panther v3 #23
> 	Occurring on a Saturday, I place this the day after DP2 44.  This 
issue occurs during the year before BP3 42.

What are these issues doing here if A3 32 occurs after BP3 42 as you pointed 
out?

I certainly agree though with your points on:

>Deadline #2
       ....The battle between Spidey and Doc Ock is not the one shown in 
PP:SM 41  the setting and choreography dont match...

and:

>PPSM2 44-46 span about four days ... It is unlikely that the Spidey/Morlun 
fight (ASM2 32-38) occurs between PPSM2 44 and 45.

			*	*	*

Re: Here it is, folks!  Pages from the MU Calendar!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 10, 2002 at 07:07:24:
In Reply to: Re: Here it is, folks!  Pages from the MU Calendar!
posted by Antonio Gavio on September 09, 2002 at 15:37:09:

Thanks for these helpful suggestions.  I've incorporated them all.  That BP3 
reference was an error.

			*	*	*

So the big, big, MEGA-HUGE question is...
Posted by SKleefeld on September 09, 2002 at 15:43:38:
In Reply to: Here it is, folks!  Pages from the MU Calendar!
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 08, 2002 at 16:03:16:

Hey, Paul --

Excellent work overall. There were really very few things I would see as 
problematic, and they all stem from a basic chronological question: WHAT IS 
MOST IMPORTANT?

Let's face it; there are going to be some hiccups. Somebody's going to have 
to appear in the wrong costume at some point, or say something that goes 
contadictory to established history, or we'll have to invent transitions 
between stories, or... but we're doing this to smooth things out as much as 
we can. And that leads back to the question: what elements in any given story 
are important enough to consider relevant?

Or, to look at the reverse question, what elements in a story are **shudder** 
"topical"?

Now, the basic difference between your approach and mine, Paul, seems to boil 
down to the importance of certain elements. You seem to put more weight on 
the passage of time (i.e. captions that list the amount of time between 
stories, seasonal changes, etc.) whereas I'm more inclined to look at the 
changes in/about a character (i.e costume changes, haircuts, etc.).

Clearly, the same elements are going to vary in importance from story to 
story. The phases of the moon are critical for, say, Werewolf by Night but 
are neglible for the current Thunderbolts story where the team is on a 
different Earth with a potentially different orbit for its moon. But should 
we develop some guidelines on what is generally more important? What things 
should we be focusing on, on the whole?

First for me are plot-related story elements. The WTC collapse, Pier 4 blowing 
up, Kang taking over the planet. Big stuff that has an impact on a number of 
people. I don't think there's much arguement over this one, otherwise we'd 
probably have very different lists!  :)

I'm inclined to go with character changes above everything else. If Namor is 
not ruling Atlantis in one story, that's a MAJOR issue, regardless of what's 
going on in the story. (Cap #45-48, for example.) If Torch can't control his 
flame, that's a major issue, even for trivial appearances like Deadline #4. 

Character visuals are next, especially with regards to someone like Hank Pym, 
who's mental state is visually tied to his costume, or Iron Man who's costume 
is more involved than a pair of spandex. There are a range of importance of 
things here, but I'd still be more inclined to look at Sue Richards's haircut 
than whether or not there are leaves on the trees. The stories are about the 
characters, after all, not the world around them.

Next would be creator intent. I like to respect the works of these talented 
individuals, but they are human and screw up from time to time. I'll listen 
to what they had in mind, but if it contradicts existing story elements, then 
their word goes out the window. (With apologies to Tom, Kurt, etc.)

Next come ancillary, but significant events. Major holidays, presidential 
elections, etc. Plot-related things, like what we see in USAgent still get 
put up with the major events listed earlier, but if the senate race is only 
seen as background, on a TV screen for example, it has considerably less 
significance.

And dead last would be the "topical" stuff. Phases of the moon, leaves on the 
trees, comments about the weather. This is stuff I use only as an ABSOLUTE 
LAST RESORT. (Sorry, Paul.) This is so tertiary to what these comic books are 
about that I generally won't even consider them. Besides, how many times has 
villain come through and screwed the weather all to hell anyway? How many 
times has the Cask of Ancient Winters been opened? Anyone remember Inferno?

My thinking, on the whole, is that these stories are about characters. 
Maintaining character intergrity is more important than just about anything 
else, IMO, and that's why I've been fighting tooth and nail for Iron Man's 
armor consistency and Pym's NOT throwing his YJ uniform in the wash. 

That's why I don't buy into having Tony mysteriously have to work out kinks 
in his Grell-Ryan armor for CA3 #50. That's why I'd rather have Sun-Tao lying 
in a lab for a couple of weeks, rather than have Hank do his laundry. 

...

That said, a couple of specific points for your reference, Paul...

	*Thor's appearance in FF3 #39 is immaterial because the text outright 
	 says that many heroes from many realities are helping out. It doesn't 
	 necessarily have to be "our" Thor we see.

	*Daredevil's identity was exposed on April 18. It shows up fairly 
	 clearly on every newspaper shot throughout the series. (Personally, 
	 I consider this absurdly topical, but since you're trying to utilize 
	 actual dates for your list, I thought I should point it out.)

	*Regarding your problem with USAgent, THAT'S why I don't calendarize 
	 this stuff!

	*Regarding the Spidey/Doc Ock fight in Deadline #2, why have ANOTHER 
	 Spidey/Ock fight? No, the settings don't exactly match from what we 
	 see, but you're having Spidey put Ock behind bars in PP #41, Ock 
	 bust out, get captured again by Spidey again, and released yet 
	 AGAIN for ASM #43? Yeah, I know the legal system in the Marvel 
	 Universe lets villains out fairly quickly, but geez...!

And, so I don't sound too negative (especially after Jeph's made me out to 
be this huge continuity Nazi-ogre), I did very much like your explanation for 
Cap's death, Dead Men Running and his mysterious re-birth.

Oh, and Jeph, feel free to post our email conversations. I don't think I'll 
have the time to go through them for a while.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Further discussions in Chronology Seminar
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 09, 2002 at 22:16:44:
In Reply to: So the big, big, MEGA-HUGE question is...
posted by SKleefeld on September 09, 2002 at 15:43:38:

> Now, the basic difference between your approach and mine, Paul, seems to 
boil down to the importance of certain elements. You seem to put more weight 
on the passage of time (i.e. captions that list the amount of time between 
stories, seasonal changes, etc.) whereas I'm more inclined to look at the 
changes in/about a character (i.e costume changes, haircuts, etc.).

Not necessarily, Sean.  I think you misunderstand my ultimate intention.  I 
do consider the flow of characters' lives to be of great importance.  What 
I'm attempting to do is look at the issue of chronology from another 
perspective, because it's one that I haven't seen in your and Jeph's work, 
aside from the occasional nod to Christmas.  That perspective is, indeed, 
the passage of "real" (Marvel) time.  Not because I consider it to be the 
only, or necessarily the most important, factor.  But because I'm concerned 
that your chronological placements may not factor in *enough* temporal 
references.  Sure, there are such references that need to be chalked up as 
"topical."  But why not pay closer attention to these references and fold 
them in as we can, trying all the while to minimize the number of "topical" 
references?

If my calendar has neglected to consider logical character chronologies (see 
Jeph's comments), it's usually not because of deliberate decisions on my part 
to ignore them, but it's because I failed to notice inconsistencies.  That's 
why I'm counting on you guys to catch me there.

As I mentioned earlier, relative chronologies are great (bow to Russ), but 
absolute time placements can enhance them and add to a feeling of realism in 
a fictional world created by writers, editors, and artists who (sigh) don't 
consistently plot things out, calendar-wise.

I'm seeking to follow through on *two* elements of George Olshevsky's work 
(Official Marvel Indexes) that I enjoy so much: 1) those great before and 
after appearances noted in his character lists; and 2) those calendar notes 
placed under his "comments."  (Example for UX 14-18: "The stories in issues 
#14-18 take place without significant continuity breaks during July of the 
summer between Peter Parker's senior year in high school and freshman year 
in college."  Love that stuff!)

> Clearly, the same elements are going to vary in importance from story to 
story. The phases of the moon are critical for, say, Werewolf by Night but 
are neglible for the current Thunderbolts story where the team is on a 
different Earth with a potentially different orbit for its moon. But should 
we develop some guidelines on what is generally more important? What things 
should we be focusing on, on the whole?

As you say, Sean, what's important varies.  Just because I note weather, 
phases of the moon, etc. in all those entries on my calendar doesn't mean 
we have to slavishly adhere to them *without thought about character 
chronologies.*  They're listed for us all to reference when we eventually 
compile the masterpiece toward which I think we're moving.  It's fodder for 
thought.  And if, given other considerations, two stories may look like they 
can occur around the same time and both have full moons, then great, let's 
place them near each other.

> First for me are plot-related story elements. The WTC collapse, Pier 4 
blowing up, Kang taking over the planet. Big stuff that has an impact on a 
number of people. I don't think there's much arguement over this one, 
otherwise we'd probably have very different lists!  :)

Agreed, most definitely.

> I'm inclined to go with character changes above everything else. If Namor 
is not ruling Atlantis in one story, that's a MAJOR issue, regardless of 
what's going on in the story. (Cap #45-48, for example.) If Torch can't 
control his flame, that's a major issue, even for trivial appearances like 
Deadline #4. 

True enough.  Of course I would have considered that Torch thing if I *had* 
Deadline #4. ;)

> Character visuals are next, especially with regards to someone like Hank 
Pym, who's mental state is visually tied to his costume, or Iron Man who's 
costume is more involved than a pair of spandex. There are a range of 
importance of things here, but I'd still be more inclined to look at Sue 
Richards's haircut than whether or not there are leaves on the trees. The 
stories are about the characters, after all, not the world around them.

I don't know about haircuts...  But remember we allow for characters to have 
different looks based on how different artists portray them.

Yup, characters take center stage, but I say the stage itself can't be 
ignored.

> Next would be creator intent. I like to respect the works of these talented 
individuals, but they are human and screw up from time to time. I'll listen 
to what they had in mind, but if it contradicts existing story elements, then 
their word goes out the window. (With apologies to Tom, Kurt, etc.)

Well, they're not infallible.  Remember that Tigra appearance that we've all 
been told to ignore!

> Next come ancillary, but significant events. Major holidays, presidential 
elections, etc. Plot-related things, like what we see in USAgent still get 
put up with the major events listed earlier, but if the senate race is only 
seen as background, on a TV screen for example, it has considerably less 
significance.

No argument there.  Witness my designation of the Christmas in IM3 50-FB as 
"topical."  (sigh)

> And dead last would be the "topical" stuff. Phases of the moon, leaves on 
the trees, comments about the weather. This is stuff I use only as an ABSOLUTE 
LAST RESORT. (Sorry, Paul.) This is so tertiary to what these comic books are 
about that I generally won't even consider them. Besides, how many times has 
villain come through and screwed the weather all to hell anyway? How many 
times has the Cask of Ancient Winters been opened? Anyone remember Inferno?

These aren't major determining factors in my book either.  Let's just make 
sense of them when we can, as noted above.  Maybe the final product should 
be annotated to show where such references work and where they don't, just 
like George O. did.

> My thinking, on the whole, is that these stories are about characters. 
Maintaining character integrity is more important than just about anything 
else, IMO, and that's why I've been fighting tooth and nail for Iron Man's 
armor consistency and Pym's NOT throwing his YJ uniform in the wash. 

Can we all just *pretend* that it's YJ instead of Goliath we see in those 
IM issues?  You know, like pretending Tigra wasn't there.  It is an admitted 
(I think) screw-up.  ;)

> That's why I don't buy into having Tony mysteriously have to work out kinks 
in his Grell-Ryan armor for CA3 #50. That's why I'd rather have Sun-Tao lying 
in a lab for a couple of weeks, rather than have Hank do his laundry. 

My Sun-Tao point is actually character/plot based, not calendar based.  Why 
would Tony leave him there for so long?  Doesn't make sense...

> 
> That said, a couple of specific points for your reference, Paul...

> Thor's appearance in FF3 #39 is immaterial because the text outright says 
that many heroes from many realities are helping out. It doesn't necessarily 
have to be "our" Thor we see.

Okey doke.

> Daredevil's identity was exposed on April 18. It shows up fairly clearly 
on every newspaper shot throughout the series. (Personally, I consider this 
absurdly topical, but since you're trying to utilize actual dates for your 
list, I thought I should point it out.)

If it works, let's use it.  Thanks.  But don't dismiss things as "absurdly 
topical" before considering them.  That may be our main difference.  You've 
sounded a bit predisposed to dismiss calendar placement, but (despite all 
of Jeph's criticisms), I still think it can work!

> Regarding your problem with USAgent, THAT'S why I don't calendarize this 
stuff!

What, are you afraid of lunacy?  ;)

> Regarding the Spidey/Doc Ock fight in Deadline #2, why have ANOTHER 
Spidey/Ock fight? No, the settings don't exactly match from what we see, 
but you're having Spidey put Ock behind bars in PP #41, Ock bust out, get 
captured again by Spidey again, and released yet AGAIN for ASM #43? Yeah, 
I know the legal system in the Marvel Universe lets villains out fairly 
quickly, but geez...!

So, you're willing to consider two very different buildings as the same 
structure?

> And, so I don't sound too negative (especially after Jeph's made me out to 
be this huge continuity Nazi-ogre), I did very much like your explanation for 
Cap's death, Dead Men Running and his mysterious re-birth.

Well, at least there's that contribution...

			*	*	*

Re: Further discussions in Chronology Seminar
Posted by SKleefeld on September 09, 2002 at 23:07:05:
In Reply to: Further discussions in Chronology Seminar
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 09, 2002 at 22:16:44:

> Not necessarily, Sean.  I think you misunderstand my ultimate intention.  I 
do consider the flow of characters' lives to be of great importance.  What 
I'm attempting to do is look at the issue of chronology from another 
perspective, because it's one that I haven't seen in your and Jeph's work, 
aside from the occasional nod to Christmas.  That perspective is, indeed, the 
passage of "real" (Marvel) time.  Not because I consider it to be the only, 
or necessarily the most important, factor.  But because I'm concerned that 
your chronological placements may not factor in *enough* temporal references.  
Sure, there are such references that need to be chalked up as "topical."  But 
why not pay closer attention to these references and fold them in as we can, 
trying all the while to minimize the number of "topical" references?

I see what you're saying, but I'd be more inclined to go with a greater number 
of less important topical references, than a fewer number of bigger ones. 
That's why I was saying major holidays and such take greater importance than 
background weather, for example.

> If my calendar has neglected to consider logical character chronologies 
(see Jeph's comments), it's usually not because of deliberate decisions on 
my part to ignore them, but it's because I failed to notice inconsistencies.  
That's why I'm counting on you guys to catch me there.

Then let's give Stark and Pym some costume consistency for Pete's sake!  :) 

> As I mentioned earlier, relative chronologies are great (bow to Russ), but 
absolute time placements can enhance them and add to a feeling of realism in 
a fictional world created by writers, editors, and artists who (sigh) don't 
consistently plot things out, calendar-wise.

I think this will is heading to a "we'll have to agree to disagree" issue. 
Which is fine. A great deal of your list matches mine, and there's just a 
few points of contention that we're looking at.

Maybe we present a "Here's everything we agree on" list to Russ, and then 
let HIM work out the sticky issues!  >:)

> I'm seeking to follow through on *two* elements of George Olshevsky's work 
(Official Marvel Indexes) that I enjoy so much: 1) those great before and 
after appearances noted in his character lists; and 2) those calendar notes 
placed under his "comments."  (Example for UX 14-18: "The stories in issues 
#14-18 take place without significant continuity breaks during July of the 
summer between Peter Parker's senior year in high school and freshman year 
in college."  Love that stuff!)

I'll admit that I liked that stuff when I first saw it, too. But the more I 
got into it, and the more books I looked at, it started to fall apart very 
quickly. We've got characters aging at different rates, holidays that don't 
line up, BIZARRE weather patterns all over the place...

I just don't think it works on the large scale we're dealing with.

> These aren't major determining factors in my book either.  Let's just make 
sense of them when we can, as noted above.  Maybe the final product should 
be annotated to show where such references work and where they don't, just 
like George O. did.

Not to disagree with you too much, but I think that's where I got the sense 
you were placing greater importance on these things than you were. By 
mentioning them in the first place, you were telling me (it seemed) that it 
was note-worthy enough for you to factor into the chronology. If said event/
incident/whatever winds up being topical, why mention it? It just gets in 
the way, IMO.

> Can we all just *pretend* that it's YJ instead of Goliath we see in those 
IM issues?  You know, like pretending Tigra wasn't there.  It is an admitted 
(I think) screw-up.  ;)

See, now I'm willing to play pretend dress up here. I mean, there's an 
appearance of the FF in Defenders #1 that just WILL NOT WORK, if you look 
strictly at costumes. I quickly had to resign myself to saying, "Yes, Larsen 
screwed that up." But in the cases of YJ and Iron Man, I think the costume 
is more integral to the character, and should be given greater importance.

> My Sun-Tao point is actually character/plot based, not calendar based.  Why 
would Tony leave him there for so long?  Doesn't make sense...

But Sun-Tao is a minor character. Goliath/YJ is a heavy hitter, and should 
take precedence, IMO.

> If it works, let's use it.  Thanks.  But don't dismiss things as "absurdly 
topical" before considering them.  That may be our main difference.  You've 
sounded a bit predisposed to dismiss calendar placement, but (despite all of 
Jeph's criticisms), I still think it can work!

I freely admit to being biased against the calendar approach. Nothing 
personal, again, I just don't think it works. Agree to disagree?

> > Regarding the Spidey/Doc Ock fight in Deadline #2, why have ANOTHER 
Spidey/Ock fight? No, the settings don't exactly match from what we see, but 
you're having Spidey put Ock behind bars in PP #41, Ock bust out, get 
captured again by Spidey again, and released yet AGAIN for ASM #43? Yeah, 
I know the legal system in the Marvel Universe lets villains out fairly 
quickly, but geez...!

> So, you're willing to consider two very different buildings as the same 
structure?

The buildings are background to the characters and fairly immaterial to the 
story, so in this case, yes. Either of those scenes could've been depicted 
on ANY set of rooftops without affecting the story flow. So in this instance, 
I'd prefer to make more sense of the characters and coalesce the two possible 
fights into one. Especially since the one shown in Deadline is so ancillary 
to the story.

> 
> > And, so I don't sound too negative (especailly after Jeph's made me out 
to be this huge continuity Nazi-ogre), I did very much like your explanation 
for Cap's death, Dead Men Running and his mysterious re-birth.

> Well, at least there's that contribution...

Hey, I'm taking all your X-stuff pretty much verbaitum, so you've put in 
quite a bit as far as I'm concerned!

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Chronology Seminar 101
Posted by Jeph! on September 09, 2002 at 23:50:38:
In Reply to: Further discussions in Chronology Seminar
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 09, 2002 at 22:17:06:

Well, lessee here.

First off -- does anyone WANT my opinion?  I mean, as has been pointed out 
to me, Sean and Paul, YOU TWO are members of the mysterious "Board of 
Directors of the MCP" -- you two have Russ' ear -- your notions about the 
values the MCP should embody are relatively crucial, because you two are a 
PART of the MCP.

At the end of the day, I'm a concerned volunteer.

So I think for the most part, I'm going to bow out of this particular debate, 
but since I've got a lot of personal stake in this project, I thought I'd 
register my thoughts -- and then lie low and work on, I don't know, Captain 
Britain or something.

The two of you seem to be opposite sides of the same idea:  Sean, you're a 
damn-the-torpedoes, character-continuity-at-all-costs guy, and Paul -- even 
though you're not as bad as we make you out to be, you're still pretty well 
fixated on the idea that an absolute calendar placement can work 99% of the 
time.

I feel like I'm more in the middle ground.  Of course, I have some fairly 
wacky ideas -- I've accepted the idea that, if the Marvel Universe were a 
real and tangible place, it must lie on some cosmic/temporal fault line.  
Either that or the Celestials are playing chess with the Infinites and every 
once in a while reality on MU earth gets re-woven.

How to put this?

I believe that inter-company crossovers, for example, are canon.  I believe 
that the MU is such a place where, every once in a while, it gets its cosmic 
wires crossed and reality is different for a while -- Batman and Daredevil 
exist simultaneously, but NOBODY NOTICES that it's any different.  And when 
it goes back to normal, or switches to a reality where Spidey meets Gen-13, 
that too is how it "always was".

That's my belief -- that, in order to explain things like Christmas many many 
times a year and a new president every nine months, the MU must be constantly 
being re-jumbled on a cosmic level, and on the human scale nobody notices, 
because every time a reboot happens, it was "always that way".

Which war did Reed, Ben, and Tony Stark fight in?  "Topical", George Olevshky 
says.  "It changed," *I* says, "and now it always was that way."

Yes, I'm a little insane and have a broader definition of Canon than the MCP, 
but I'm not on the board of directors.  I also try to play by your stricter 
rules and definitions when I'm here.

But you can tell, I tend to lean more towards character-based continuity than 
the idea that one single absolute calendar placement will work.  To my mind, 
some writer is going to write something that contradicts something else, and 
the "calendar" will shift and fold -- MU Reality will shift and fold -- time 
will pass, and the denizens of the MU are going to start remembering that 
Reed and Ben fought in the Gulf War before they were part of the FF.

So when I'm faced with a series of clues that say "X #109 was Christmas, and 
X #111 was September 11th, and they were about three weeks after one another", 
I shrug and say Okay -- if the denizens of the Marvel Universe don't notice 
that anything's wrong, why should I?

So, to my twisted little mind, the character's relative chronologies should 
come first -- this is why I factor publication order in so much, because I 
like to believe that IN GENERAL, we watch the MU unfold in order -- UX 385 
is followed by X 105 is followed by UX 386, etc etc.

But, as long as we create and treat the characters' established, agreed-upon 
and logical individual continuities with respect, THEN and ONLY THEN can we 
pretend that it's all taking place over "real" time, and try to place things 
on a calendar.

ASM2 #36 is a good example, even though its canonicity is in question.  By 
character logic alone (Cyclops and Magneto), it ONLY WORKS between X #107 
and #111.  If those times don't happen to correspond to September (and they 
don't), well too bad.  The important thing is that, if someone pulld a stack 
of Cyclops' appearances three years from now and sits and reads them all, 
he'll feel like what he just read made SENSE, that it was a faithful 
interpretation of the life of Scott Summers -- as Scott Summers saw it, with 
all the inconsistencies of the MU neatly ignored by this character that lives 
there.

Same thing with USAgent's second series -- the senatorial race is brutally 
out-of-sync with other Marvel books, but if someone were to read all of John 
Walker's appearances in the order we agree on, that reader should come away 
satisfied as far as John Walker goes -- not necessarily as far as the ever-
shifting backdrop goes.

Backdrop and props ARE important, yes, and so are secondary characters, but 
the MAIN CHARACTER is always the most important thing on the stage.

Good lord.  I'm not making too much sense here.  Let me try to boil it down 
here:  I see what both Sean and Paul are trying to accomplish, and I respect 
both their notions about the MU.  And I'd like to see them both succeed, and 
create a livable solution that, as far as we can take it, mimics a real 
universe.

But if it, in certain spots, doesn't want to mimic a real universe, we should 
NOT push it.

If Sept. 11th wants to take place in late November of early January, let it.  
If one character wants to think it's July while in the next issue in the same 
story-arc another character walks along in the snow, that's the way it is.

In terms of a formula, here's my take on it:

Paul Bourcier, unless it contradicts Sean Kleefeld.

Which is to say, place as much as you like onto an absolute calendar, as long 
as the individual and group chronologies remain intertwined in a fashion that 
makes logical sense for the (majority of) characters, and is to the best of 
our abilities upholding the intent of the writers.

In many cases it doesn't matter as far as the MCP goes -- which came first, 
Hulk #34-43 or Daredevil #26-28?  Nowhere on the site will this information 
become relevant, because there's no character overlap.  People looking up 
Hulk's chronology list don't get a string of calendar dates attached, they 
just get issues in a logical order.

If Hulk #34 were dated June 12th, and Daredevil #26 were dated April 18th, 
that's fine.  But if a character -- Nick Fury, say -- appeared in DD #26 
and APPEARED TO REFERENCE Hulk #34 -- the dates, to me, go right out the 
window.  Because in three years when someone's reading all his Nick Fury 
comics in the order we recommend, he's going to notice that we upheld the 
reference and smile -- odds are, he won't notice the date mix-up and cry.

If it fits well onto an imaginary calendar -- high-five.  If it doesn't work, 
try to make it work -- but don't try TOO hard.  Pull and tug at those 
character-chronology lists, but don't break 'em until you know for damn sure 
that the order you're putting them back together in makes just as much sense 
as the first way.

And if that doesn't work, then leave it the hell alone.

I suspect these are values shared to varying degrees by both Sean and Paul, 
so I'll leave it up to them to find a middle-ground.  Me, I just wanted to 
shove my foot in the door, scream "if the Marvel Universe were real it'd be 
under constant cosmic flux!", and run away hoping I've made a small point.

All I care about -- the bottom line to me, and in my mind the higher point 
of the MCP as a fan resource, is:  if I read all the comics that Character X 
appears in, in the order the MCP recommends, WILL THEY MAKE SENSE?

With that in mind, I think Sean's goals come first -- but Paul has some very 
good points that perhaps BOTH sets of criteria can be met.  I agree.

All I have to say is that, as far as the current point of the MCP, Sean's 
goals should be met first, THEN Paul's.

...

And of course, all of this is merely my humble opinion.

I'll leave you big scary MCP board-members to fight the rest of this one 
out.  I'll kep truckin' with this thing, but I think we're nearing the end 
of the research and coming into the question of ideologies.

And that was mine.  Value it as much as you choose.

   -Jeph!
dear lord, I hope this made sense.

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology Seminar 101
Posted by SKleefeld on September 10, 2002 at 11:13:54:
In Reply to: Chronology Seminar 101
posted by Jeph! on September 09, 2002 at 23:50:38:

> First off -- does anyone WANT my opinion?  I mean, as has been pointed 
out to me, Sean and Paul, YOU TWO are members of the mysterious "Board of 
Directors of the MCP" -- you two have Russ' ear -- your notions about the 
values the MCP should embody are relatively crucial, because you two are a 
PART of the MCP.

> At the end of the day, I'm a concerned volunteer.

Well, I can't speak for Russ, obviously, but my role as a "Board Member" 
doesn't really seem all that different from your role, Jeph, as a "concerned 
volunteer." Russ asked Paul, myself, and a handful of others to serve on the 
MCP Board to come up with solutions to questions he just couldn't/didn't want 
to solve on his own. I think the only time Russ has actually called on us to 
act as Board Members was in regards to whether or not the Wizard 1/2 and 0 
issues should count. And I've been serving on the Board for... what? Two or 
three years now? 

The reason why Russ asked US isn't really because we're some kind of MU 
Elite, but just that we had all repeatedly demonstrated that we had a pretty 
good sense of how to chronologize books, and a love of Marvel comics. I 
think we had all sent numerous contributions to Russ, long before he started 
this board, and probably a fair piece before creators started realizing (and 
using!) what he was doing. The only real difference between your opinion and 
mine, Jeph, is that I've just been doing this a little while longer. (At 
least, as far as I know.) 

So, for my money, your opinions here are JUST as valid as Paul's, or Andy's, 
or Arthur's, or anyone else who frequents this board. 

Except maybe Russ. We're all humbled by him.

> That's my belief -- that, in order to explain things like Christmas many 
many times a year and a new president every nine months, the MU must be 
constantly being re-jumbled on a cosmic level, and on the human scale nobody 
notices, because every time a reboot happens, it was "always that way".

Very Orwellian in a cosmic sort of way; I like it.

> Which war did Reed, Ben, and Tony Stark fight in?  "Topical", George 
Olevshky says.  "It changed," *I* says, "and now it always was that way."

I'm still of a mind that Reed and Ben fought in WWII. 

I subscribe more to the idea that time in the Marvel Universe is not entirely 
linear. The events happen in a deliberate sequence, but the 20 or so years 
between WWII and the Pocket Rocket launch is flexible. It seems like 20 years 
for some people, but more like 50 for others.

So, we can still have Reed and Ben fight in WWII (which, I might add, has 
never been directly contradicted) and still have them in their early 40s for 
the 21st century. Trying to impose a "normal" calendaric system just can't 
compensate for that.

> Backdrop and props ARE important, yes, and so are secondary characters, but 
the MAIN CHARACTER is always the most important thing on the stage.

Preach on, brother!  :)

> In many cases it doesn't matter as far as the MCP goes -- which came first, 
Hulk #34-43 or Daredevil #26-28?  Nowhere on the site will this information 
become relevant, because there's no character overlap.  People looking up 
Hulk's chronology list don't get a string of calendar dates attached, they 
just get issues in a logical order.

In all honesty, I don't care about whether or not this stuff gets placed on 
a calendar, SO LONG AS IT'S IN THE RIGHT ORDER FOR THE CHARACTERS. If Paul 
wants to move Hulk in front of or behind Daredevil, that's irrelevant to me 
since -- as you pointed out -- there's no crossovers anyway. 

But I don't think I argued against any of those points/issues anyway.  :)

> I suspect these are values shared to varying degrees by both Sean and Paul, 
so I'll leave it up to them to find a middle-ground.  Me, I just wanted to 
shove my foot in the door, scream "if the Marvel Universe were real it'd be 
under constant cosmic flux!", and run away hoping I've made a small point.

Well, I got it, at least.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology Seminar 101
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 10, 2002 at 21:59:32:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology Seminar 101
posted by SKleefeld on September 10, 2002 at 11:13:54:

> > First off -- does anyone WANT my opinion?  I mean, as has been pointed 
out to me, Sean and Paul, YOU TWO are members of the mysterious "Board of 
Directors of the MCP" -- you two have Russ' ear -- your notions about the 
values the MCP should embody are relatively crucial, because you two are a 
PART of the MCP.

I don't know about that.  Something tells me I'm losing credibility...

> Well, I can't speak for Russ, obviously, but my role as a "Board Member" 
doesn't really seem all that different from your role, Jeph, as a "concerned 
volunteer." Russ asked Paul, myself, and a handful of others to serve on the 
MCP Board to come up with solutions to questions he just couldn't/didn't want 
to solve on his own. I think the only time Russ has actually called on us to 
act as Board Members was in regards to whether or not the Wizard 1/2 and 0 
issues should count. And I've been serving on the Board for... what? Two or 
three years now? 

My association has run about 5 1/2 years, and it's been frustratingly fun. :)

> The reason why Russ asked US isn't really because we're some kind of MU 
Elite, but just that we had all repeatedly demonstrated that we had a pretty 
good sense of how to chronologize books, and a love of Marvel comics. I think 
we had all sent numerous contributions to Russ, long before he started this 
board, and probably a fair piece before creators started realizing (and 
using!) what he was doing. The only real difference between your opinion and 
mine, Jeph, is that I've just been doing this a little while longer. (At 
least, as far as I know.) 

As far as I'm concerned, Jeph, you're an official MU chronologist.  Your 
dedication, thoughtful analysis, attention to detail, and love of the work 
certainly qualify you.  And you look unflichingly at the BIG PICTURE.  (Even 
though you dreaded the coming of the calendar.)

> So, for my money, your opinions here are JUST as valid as Paul's, or 
Andy's, or Arthur's, or anyone else who frequents this board. 

Amen.

> > That's my belief -- that, in order to explain things like Christmas many 
many times a year and a new president every nine months, the MU must be 
constantly being re-jumbled on a cosmic level, and on the human scale nobody 
notices, because every time a reboot happens, it was "always that way".

> Very Orwellian in a cosmic sort of way; I like it.

Must...resist...

>  
> > Which war did Reed, Ben, and Tony Stark fight in?  "Topical", George 
Olevshky says.  "It changed," *I* says, "and now it always was that way."

> I'm still of a mind that Reed and Ben fought in WWII. 

> I subscribe more to the idea that time in the Marvel Universe is not 
entirely linear. The events happen in a deliberate sequence, but the 20 or 
so years between WWII and the Pocket Rocket launch is flexible. It seems 
like 20 years for some people, but more like 50 for others.

> So, we can still have Reed and Ben fight in WWII (which, I might add, has 
never been directly contradicted) and still have them in their early 40s 
for the 21st century. Trying to impose a "normal" calendaric system just 
can't compensate for that.

I hate retcons.  While I believe in a general calendar that marks the 
passage of Marvel Time, I don't subscribe to "real world" events dictating 
absolute years in the MU.  I like to think that the FF went into space in 
1961 Marvel Time and that it's now about 1979 or so in the MU.  But the MU 
of 1979 looks a lot like our 2002.

> > Backdrop and props ARE important, yes, and so are secondary characters, 
but the MAIN CHARACTER is always the most important thing on the stage.

> Preach on, brother!  :)

If you expect me to disagree, you'll be disappointed.

> > In many cases it doesn't matter as far as the MCP goes -- which came 
first, Hulk #34-43 or Daredevil #26-28?  Nowhere on the site will this 
information become relevant, because there's no character overlap.  People 
looking up Hulk's chronology list don't get a string of calendar dates 
attached, they just get issues in a logical order.

True, the MCP is not about calendars.  I just offer my calendar treatment 
because there are instances in which it helps to determine a character's 
chronological history, when important plot and character development allow 
room for it.

> In all honesty, I don't care about whether or not this stuff gets placed 
on a calendar, SO LONG AS IT'S IN THE RIGHT ORDER FOR THE CHARACTERS. If 
Paul wants to move Hulk in front of or behind Daredevil, that's irrelevant 
to me since -- as you pointed out -- there's no crossovers anyway. 

> But I don't think I argued against any of those points/issues anyway.  :)

> > I suspect these are values shared to varying degrees by both Sean and 
Paul, so I'll leave it up to them to find a middle-ground.  Me, I just wanted 
to shove my foot in the door, scream "if the Marvel Universe were real it'd 
be under constant cosmic flux!", and run away hoping I've made a small point.

> Well, I got it, at least.

Ditto.  This is just like academia.  Different interpretations and 
methodologies stimulating lively and worthwhile discussion.

(And I will get to your specific points sometime soon, Jeph!)

			*	*	*

Seminar Fever!
Posted by Jeph! on September 11, 2002 at 22:18:07:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology Seminar 101
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 10, 2002 at 21:59:32:

Are the "Fever" titles getting tiresome yet?  I'm going for a theme here.  
Although, at this point in the evening, "Typo Fever" is more accurate.

> I don't know about that.  Something tells me I'm losing credibility...

Hey, *I'm* the crazy guy what thinks the inter-company crossovers are canon.  
I'm the ranting street lunatic of the MCP board.

I don't think you're losing credibility, Paul.  I just think that you and I 
are focused on two different goals, and willing to ignore/sacrifice different 
things in order to reach'em.  I suppose it's just down to deciding which goals 
are best for THIS FORUM, the MCP.

Or, in which ways can we best use YOUR method of seeing the MU to shape 
Russ's?  And in which ways should we NOT?

>> The reason why Russ asked US isn't really because we're some kind of MU 
Elite, but just that we had all repeatedly demonstrated that we had a pretty 
good sense of how to chronologize books, and a love of Marvel comics.

Ah, I see.  Loudmouths.  I can get into that.

Don't think I haven't found your letters printed in "Black Panther" #17-18, 
Kleefeld.  ;)

> The only real difference between your opinion and mine, Jeph, is that I've 
just been doing this a little while longer. (At least, as far as I know.)

My first association with the MCP was three or four long years ago, when I 
sent Russ a 26-page document detailing a complete overhaul to every one of 
Captain Britain's supporting characters.  It filled in the 92-94 Gap and had 
no supporting evidence whatsoever -- he quite rightly ignored me.  And I've 
been slowly redoing/proving my research here on the web board for a while 
now.  ;)

> As far as I'm concerned, Jeph, you're an official MU chronologist.  Your 
dedication, thoughtful analysis, attention to detail, and love of the work 
certainly qualify you.  And you look unflichingly at the BIG PICTURE.  (Even 
though you dreaded the coming of the calendar.)

Whoo.  I'm "official"!  Where's my desk?

Eh -- no, seriously, though, Paul -- thanks.  That feels good.  Acceptance 
by one's peers is a good thing, especially when we all pour so much effort 
into this stuff -- it's good to be acknowledged and welcomed.  I appreciate 
it!

>>> That's my belief -- that, in order to explain things like Christmas many 
many times a year and a new president every nine months, the MU must be 
constantly being re-jumbled on a cosmic level, and on the human scale nobody 
notices, because every time a reboot happens, it was "always that way".

>> Very Orwellian in a cosmic sort of way; I like it.

> Must...resist...

Give in!  GIVE IN TO THE EXPLANATION FOR EVERY INCONSISTENCY EVER!

I think the only constant in the MU is the constant presence of 
inconcistencies.  How many fingers does the Beast have these days, anyway?  
Three or four?

> > I subscribe more to the idea that time in the Marvel Universe is not 
entirely linear. The events happen in a deliberate sequence, but the 20 or 
so years between WWII and the Pocket Rocket launch is flexible. It seems 
like 20 years for some people, but more like 50 for others.

Yeah, something like that -- there is a definite SEQUENCE -- but whenever a 
character says "it's been X years since", I don't buy it.  I just take that 
as "that event was in the past", and let the rest go.  After all, how many 
times can they dance around the "Cap was frozen in ice for 20 - no, 30 - no, 
uhm, 60 years" thing?  Good enough to say that Cap was frozen "for years", 
and assume everything else we hear is a typo.  ;)  Or, an eventual typo.

There's a slim line between knowing WHICH temporal references to use and 
which to discard, and I'm trying hard to master it.  Has it really been a 
FULL YEAR, Marvel-time, since Colossus died?  I'm not sure I like the recent 
trend towards near-real-time progression in the MU, what with the seven-month 
gap in Cap v4 #1 corresponding exactly to the seven months between 9/11 and 
the publication date of that issue...

> I hate retcons.  While I believe in a general calendar that marks the 
passage of Marvel Time, I don't subscribe to "real world" events dictating 
absolute years in the MU.  I like to think that the FF went into space in 
1961 Marvel Time and that it's now about 1979 or so in the MU.  But the MU 
of 1979 looks a lot like our 2002.

I like to think that it's been ten to fifteen years, but WHICH years it's 
been is always in doubt.  Like, if it WAS a real universe, something is lost 
in the "translation" to a comic-book medium and we always get comics with 
incorrect dates.

If we ignore the year portion of calendar dates given to us in the MU, how 
can we place emphasis on the month and day portions?  If we can't believe 
one-half of a piece of data, how can we slavishly adhere to the other half?

>>> Backdrop and props ARE important, yes, and so are secondary characters, 
but the MAIN CHARACTER is always the most important thing on the stage.

>> Preach on, brother!  :)

> If you expect me to disagree, you'll be disappointed.

I guess we're agreed here.

Let's just all appoint Paul as "propsmaster" -- while we fuss over the actor's 
performance, he can keep track of the set pieces, and repair them when the 
actors kick them over.

> True, the MCP is not about calendars.  I just offer my calendar treatment 
because there are instances in which it helps to determine a character's 
chronological history, when important plot and character development allow 
room for it.

I love it when things line up and your calendar helps -- but in some cases, 
as with this 9/11 thing, imposing your calendar on the MCP actually HURTS 
it.  We've taken what was a relatively obvious window and tried, several 
times, to mush it backwards into awkward spots just to get it before 
Christmas.

I think we just have to realize when you're overlaying the MCP onto your 
calendar, and when you're CHANGING the MCP BECAUSE of your calendar -- and 
whether or not the change helps or hurts the MCP.

I said elsewhere that maybe it's okay to just plain disagree on some 
points -- especially if somewhere there's a resource that lists where the 
disagreements are, and the rationales behind both versions of events.

Are there any OTHER major areas where your calendar disagrees with the MCP, 
Paul?  And what was the history in those clashes -- who won, and why?

> (And I will get to your specific points sometime soon, Jeph!)

Joy!  I can't wait to be able to argue something with FACTS instead of 
OPINIONS.  ;)

    -Jeph, terrible with subjective things

			*	*	*

Re: Seminar Fever!
Posted by SKleefeld on September 12, 2002 at 11:22:40:
In Reply to: Seminar Fever!
posted by Jeph! on September 11, 2002 at 22:18:07:

> Don't think I haven't found your letters printed in "Black Panther" #17-18, 
Kleefeld.  ;)

Those the only ones you've found, so far? I spent about a year playing 
letter-hack, and got a letter printed about every two weeks until Marvel 
stopped printing letters with any regularity. 

I've got letters in a few other indie books, too, but their infrequent 
publication schedules hampered my efforts too.

But that's cool. I've got more time to spend doing this!  :)

> > As far as I'm concerned, Jeph, you're an official MU chronologist.  Your 
dedication, thoughtful analysis, attention to detail, and love of the work 
certainly qualify you.  And you look unflichingly at the BIG PICTURE.  (Even 
though you dreaded the coming of the calendar.)

> Whoo.  I'm "official"!  Where's my desk?

It's in the mail... with your check.  ;)

> Let's just all appoint Paul as "propsmaster" -- while we fuss over the 
actor's performance, he can keep track of the set pieces, and repair them 
when the actors kick them over.

But is it the actors' fault for kicking them over, or the stage director's 
fault for telling them to walk where the props are going to be?  ;)

Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology Seminar 101
Posted by Russ Chappell on September 10, 2002 at 22:38:49:
In Reply to: Chronology Seminar 101
posted by Jeph! on September 09, 2002 at 23:50:38:

> First off -- does anyone WANT my opinion?  I mean, as has been pointed 
out to me, Sean and Paul, YOU TWO are members of the mysterious "Board of 
Directors of the MCP" -- you two have Russ' ear -- your notions about the 
values the MCP should embody are relatively crucial, because you two are a 
PART of the MCP.

This is in the wrong direction by 180 degrees. Sean and Paul "had my ear" 
to a disproportionate degree *before* their term on the Board of Directors, 
and this Posting Board was created as an effort to get many more people 
involved. The Board of Directors is no mysterious cabal. As Sean succinctly 
stated in his own reply here, when I extended the invitation/plea to some 
of my most prolific correspondents, the one thing I requested of them was 
that they visit the Posting Board on a semi-regular basis, and contribute 
if they had something worth contributing. When I mentioned in passing earlier 
that you were engaged in discussion with two Directors, it was never 
intended--and I don't think it implied--that you were expected to defer to 
their opinion. It was just intended to alert you that both of these guys 
were heavy hitters in their knowledge of the Marvel Universe and its 
chronology.

Did someone send you a nasty email, Jeph? You sound as if your feelings are 
hurt.

> At the end of the day, I'm a concerned volunteer.

Balderdash. No one here is being paid. We're all concerned volunteers.

> So I think for the most part, I'm going to bow out of this particular 
debate, but since I've got a lot of personal stake in this project, I thought 
I'd register my thoughts -- and then lie low and work on, I don't know, 
Captain Britain or something.

I would be disappointed in you if you "lied low." So what if two contributors 
are discussing chronological philosophy? Nothing there prevents you from 
contributing chronological placements. You're doing a marvelous job. That 
doesn't mean that I'm not looking forward to your next Captain Britain 
installment.

> In many cases it doesn't matter as far as the MCP goes -- which came first, 
Hulk #34-43 or Daredevil #26-28?  Nowhere on the site will this information 
become relevant, because there's no character overlap.  People looking up 
Hulk's chronology list don't get a string of calendar dates attached, they 
just get issues in a logical order.

> If Hulk #34 were dated June 12th, and Daredevil #26 were dated April 18th, 
that's fine.  But if a character -- Nick Fury, say -- appeared in DD #26 and 
APPEARED TO REFERENCE Hulk #34 -- the dates, to me, go right out the window.  
Because in three years when someone's reading all his Nick Fury comics in 
the order we recommend, he's going to notice that we upheld the reference 
and smile -- odds are, he won't notice the date mix-up and cry.

> All I care about -- the bottom line to me, and in my mind the higher point 
of the MCP as a fan resource, is:  if I read all the comics that Character X 
appears in, in the order the MCP recommends, WILL THEY MAKE SENSE?

That's exactly it. That's the only purpose I ever saw for the MCP.

			*	*	*

Philosophy Fever!
Posted by Jeph! on September 11, 2002 at 21:18:34:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology Seminar 101
posted by Russ Chappell on September 10, 2002 at 22:38:49:

> Did someone send you a nasty email, Jeph? You sound as if your feelings 
are hurt.

Absolutely not -- in fact, it was the opposite.  After realizing that *I* 
was coming off as abrasive to Kevin, I decided that I didn't want to become 
that one know-it-all loudmouth that every forum has.  My comments here were 
an attempt to show some sort of belated humility.

> The Board of Directors is no mysterious cabal ... I extended the 
invitation/plea to some of my most prolific correspondents ... When I 
mentioned in passing earlier that you were engaged in discussion with two 
Directors, it was never intended--and I don't think it implied--that you 
were expected to defer to their opinion.

I never took it that way, don't worry.  I guess I just inferred a bit more 
"stature" in their titles -- I had mistakenly assumed that ALL of you founded 
the MCP, or that they were involved with its earliest stages.

It wasn't that I felt I HAD to defer to their opinions, I just had the idea 
that theirs were the opinions that shaped your MCP policy.  Which now I know 
isn't true.

(Urge to become loudmouth know-it-all ... rising...)

> Balderdash. No one here is being paid.

Really?  Aw crap!  Kleefeld!  You swore the check was in the mail!  YOU 
SWOOOOORRRRRE!

> I would be disappointed in you if you "lied low." So what if two 
contributors are discussing chronological philosophy? Nothing there prevents 
you from contributing chronological placements. You're doing a marvelous job.

Hmm.  Chest ... swelling with pride ... urge to become loudmouth ... rising!

Okay ... I'll see what I can contribute.  But really, once you state your 
case, what else is left?  Sean's much more persuasive than I am -- maybe I'll 
stick to things like intelligence-gathering.  I've already put out a call 
for MCP topical precedent on things like Vietnam battle dates.

Russ, while I'm on the topic, what are YOUR feelings about using an absolute 
calendar to determine MCP placement in difficult instances like this?  Or 
would you rather not get involved until the dust settles a bit more?

> That doesn't mean that I'm not looking forward to your next Captain Britain 
installment.

Double-negative means ... you ARE looking forward to it!  Good, 'coz I've 
got five issues done so far.

> > All I care about -- the bottom line to me, and in my mind the higher 
point of the MCP as a fan resource, is:  if I read all the comics that 
Character X appears in, in the order the MCP recommends, WILL THEY MAKE 
SENSE?

> That's exactly it. That's the only purpose I ever saw for the MCP.

Hey, that's good -- at least I'm on the same page!

I'm starting to think that tha MCP and Paul's calendar should become two 
very different interpretations of the MU.  I mean, Paul's calendar surely 
is a great resource for the MCP at times, but at other times its rules can 
become a hindrance to an otherwise relatively straightforward chronological 
ordering (like this one).  Which is to say, I think that at times it may be 
okay for Paul's calendar to disagree with the MCP.

Paul, is your calendar online anywhere?  I think that in terms of the high-
goal of "understanding the MU as a whole", it might be nice for the MCP to 
host a series of links -- Paul's calendar, for one, along with some other 
guy on here who claims to have listed all time-travel stories in a linear 
perspective, starting with the big bang.  It also might be a good resource 
to create a list of where and why the MCP differs from Paul's calendar, and 
offer a better insight into the various ways of interpreting the Marvel 
Universe.

I'm quite possibly rambling here -- but it seems that at a certain point, 
the goal of the MCP diverges from Paul's goal, and I think that both goals 
are equally valid in their own ways -- but only one belongs HERE, until 
such time as Russ deems this the Marvel Absolute Calendar Project.

    -Jeph!
now with 100% more opinion-mattering!

			*	*	*

Re: Philosophy Fever!
Posted by Russ Chappell on September 12, 2002 at 21:20:05:
In Reply to: Philosophy Fever!
posted by Jeph! on September 11, 2002 at 21:18:34:

> Russ, while I'm on the topic, what are YOUR feelings about using an 
absolute calendar to determine MCP placement in difficult instances like 
this?  Or would you rather not get involved until the dust settles a bit 
more?

I agree with Sean's philosophy that you can't let a calendar overrule the 
internal integrity of a character's chronology. If vital story or character 
elements insist that Daredevil 271 occurs between between Marvel Spotlight 
34 and Man-Thing 6, then that's where it should be placed, tree foliage 
and presidential elections be damned. But as I understand Paul, he agrees 
with Sean here, too.

My experience with Paul suggests that he's perfectly willing to adjust his 
calendar, if you can convince him he's incorrect, and suggest a better 
solution.

One point we've disagreed on in the past is that Paul believes more time 
has passed since FF #1 than I do. These clashing theories/philosophies have 
little or no impact on the MCP though. Not part of our charter.

			*	*	*

Re: Philosophy Fever!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 13, 2002 at 21:43:00:
In Reply to: Re: Philosophy Fever!
posted by Russ Chappell on September 12, 2002 at 21:20:05:

> I agree with Sean's philosophy that you can't let a calendar overrule the 
internal integrity of a character's chronology. If vital story or character 
elements insist that Daredevil 271 occurs between between Marvel Spotlight 
34 and Man-Thing 6, then that's where it should be placed, tree foliage and 
presidential elections be damned. But as I understand Paul, he agrees with 
Sean here, too.

> My experience with Paul suggests that he's perfectly willing to adjust 
his calendar, if you can convince him he's incorrect, and suggest a better 
solution.

> One point we've disagreed on in the past is that Paul believes more time 
has passed since FF #1 than I do. These clashing theories/philosophies have 
little or no impact on the MCP though. Not part of our charter.

Russ has touched upon my general philosophy of chronological analysis, 
although Im not sure Id say you have to convince me of a characters 
chronological sequencing before I relinquish my firm grasp on an absolute 
calendar.  Of course that sequencing has to be based on sound evidence and/or 
rational reasoning, but its more the other way around.  If we have some 
leeway regarding chronological sequencing, lets look to temporal references 
as clues to a characters history.  Those references can be false friends 
and can mislead, as its given that a number of them will be topical.  
However, other such references can be helpful and, in some cases, theyre 
central to a storyline and are not easily dismissed.

As I know from my early association with the MCP, Russ has drawn a great 
deal from George Olshevskys work, relying on The Official Marvel Indexes 
for characters relative chronologies.  Georges chronological work was 
based on an approach involving two elements: 1) before-and-after sequencing 
as evidenced by the stories and characters themselves; and 2) temporal 
references to an absolute MU time line (calendar), when they were vital or 
helpful.  If the MCP uses the results of Olshevskys work, doesnt it follow 
that the MCP would utilize the same approach or philosophy in bringing 
chronologies up to date?

Thats what Ive been attempting to do.  No, the MCP should not be a 
calendar; that isnt its raison detre.  But, I do believe the order of 
entries in character chronologies should be informed in part by an 
understanding of the passage of MU time.  In fact, some of my early 
suggestions to Russ about additions and changes to the MCP were justified 
by cases I made regarding calendar placement.  These suggestions were 
accepted whenever they did not disrupt relative placement in a way that 
contradicted the flow of character histories or plot lines.  Other temporal 
references were deemed topical, which George O. himself did do (in fact, 
I think he coined the term).

The calendars Ive been offering in the last few weeks are my attempts at 
providing the group with temporal references that we can use (or not) to 
fine tune the MCP, elements I really hadnt seen much in Seans and Jephs 
chronological listings.  As weve seen, it can actually make differences 
in the ordering of character chronologies.  And it did make some differences 
for George O., who, as I recall, did some re-working of Spideys chronology 
resulting in issues (of PPSM, I believe) occurring out of sequence in order 
to make sense of calendar placement.  And as I mentioned, the MCP reflects 
this work.

It seems like the majority of you are receptive to considering temporal 
references and accepting as many as we can as long as other elements are 
chronological analysis arent sacrificed.  Others may want to disregard 
all temporal references as, by definition, topical.  But I think we should 
go with the former to remain consistent with past work on which the MCP is 
based.

Russ, if Ive misstated your approach, please do correct me.  

Okay, enough theory, now its time to put it to practice.  Im rolling up 
the sleeves and digging back in.  It may be a little while before I post a 
revised calendar (actually, a timeline, if calendar suggests placing 
everything on exact dates; Im not that insane...yet), as I can afford only 
so much time on this.  But this gets me back to Russ comments about my work; 
Im not afraid to revise and re-work things based on new (or missed) 
evidence.  Thanks to all who are helping.

(I'm not touching the issue of the quantity of MU time passed since FF #1.  
I'd never get to work if I did!)

--Paul

			*	*	*

Morlocks
Posted by Andy Holcombe on September 09, 2002 at 23:45:51:
In Reply to: Here it is, folks!  Pages from the MU Calendar!
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 08, 2002 at 16:03:16:

>But wait!  Senator Warkowski of the Senate Appropriations Committee is 
stated as being up for re-election in a flashback in issue #1 and he is 
defeated between the last two pages of issue #3.

Senator Warkowski could be up for re-election in the mid-term elections 
and this defeat was in the primary.  Incumbents are sometimes defeated in 
the primary election, which happens in the early part of the year.

> Morlocks #1
> Morlocks #2
> Morlocks #3
> Morlocks #4

I had thought this series as an alternate reality.  Call me naive if you 
will, but I don't recall a sanctioned Sentinel program policing the streets 
of Marvel USA and executing all mutants.

			*	*	*

Re: Morlocks
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 10, 2002 at 21:39:40:
In Reply to: Morlocks
posted by Andy Holcombe on September 09, 2002 at 23:45:51:

> Senator Warkowski could be up for re-election in the mid-term elections 
and this defeat was in the primary.  Incumbents are sometimes defeated in the 
primary election, which happens in the early part of the year.

Hmm.  Under what circumstances do mid-term elections occur?  Vacancies I 
can understand, but the office was not vacant; Warkowski was in it.

Yeah, okay, we're talking MU elections here, but if it's possible to find a 
"real world" model on which to base this, so much the better.  Hey, I can 
suspend my disbelief to take magic, Asgard, and planet-devouring beings as 
granted, but an unconventional election?  *Now* we're stretching things... ;)

> > Morlocks #1
> > Morlocks #2
> > Morlocks #3
> > Morlocks #4

> I had thought this series as an alternate reality.  Call me naive if you 
will, but I don't recall a sanctioned Sentinel program policing the streets 
of Marvel USA and executing all mutants.

Hmm.  What *is* the story on this series?  There are so many alternate 
realities being published these days, it's hard to keep track.  Grrr. (Pet 
peeve.)

			*	*	*

Senatorial Elections
Posted by Andy Holcombe on September 11, 2002 at 08:24:00:
In Reply to: Re: Morlocks
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 10, 2002 at 21:39:40:

> 
> Hmm.  Under what circumstances do mid-term elections occur?  Vacancies I 
can understand, but the office was not vacant; Warkowski was in it.

Mid-term refers to the middle of the presidential term.  Presidents (at least 
here in the US) are elected every four years.  1/3 of US Senators are elected 
every two years for six year terms.  So the Senators up for re-election in 
the mid-term elections would have the primary elections about fifteen months 
after the Presidential election.  I guess the question is on your calendar, 
is the US Agent mini-series set in 2001 or 2002?  If it's 2002 (or any other 
even year) having the Senator being defeated in the primary election works 
(just maybe a month or so early).

			*	*	*

Re: Senatorial Elections
Posted by Kevin  on September 11, 2002 at 08:35:47:
In Reply to: Senatorial Elections
posted by Andy Holcombe on September 11, 2002 at 08:24:00:

Heck, Primary elections can now happen at just about any point between Jan 
and August nowadays, (though most fall between March and July).  So he could 
potentially place this Warkowski election, (if you take it to be a Primary 
election, and not the General Election in November) anywhere within that 
range of months. 

			*	*	*

Re: Senatorial Elections
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 11, 2002 at 20:58:43:
In Reply to: Senatorial Elections
posted by Andy Holcombe on September 11, 2002 at 08:24:00:

> Mid-term refers to the middle of the presidential term.  Presidents (at 
leat here in the US) are elected every four years.  1/3 of US Senators are 
elected every two years for six year terms.  So the Senators up for re-
election in the mid-term elections would have the primary elections about 
fifteen months after the Presidential election.  I guess the question is 
on your calendar, is the US Agent mini-series set in 2001 or 2002?  If it's 
2002 (or any other even year) having the Senator being defeated in the 
primary election works (just maybe a month or so early).

The problem is that I've placed this during the year following a presidential 
election, not two years later and not earlier the same year.  Of course, if 
presidential elections happen every two years in the MU US, then we're 
fine. ;)

An idea I'll try to toy with is placing Def2 1 and 2 back before the November 
elections so that Attuma can be ruling Atlantis at that point.  I know that 
creates a problem for Namorita (her appearances in FF), but I'll have to see 
if other havoc is wreaked.

			*	*	*

Re: Senatorial Elections
Posted by Kevin  on September 12, 2002 at 13:43:25:
In Reply to: Re: Senatorial Elections
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 11, 2002 at 20:58:43:

> 
> > Mid-term refers to the middle of the presidential term.  Presidents (at 
leat here in the US) are elected every four years.  1/3 of US Senators are 
elected every two years for six year terms.  So the Senators up for re-
election in the mid-term elections would have the primary elections about 
fifteen months after the Presidential election.  I guess the question is on 
your calendar, is the US Agent mini-series set in 2001 or 2002?  If it's 
2002 (or any other even year) having the Senator being defeated in the 
primary election works (just maybe a month or so early).

> 
> The problem is that I've placed this during the year following a 
presidential election, not two years later and not earlier the same year.  
Of course, if presidential elections happen every two years in the MU US, 
then we're fine. ;)

> An idea I'll try to toy with is placing Def2 1 and 2 back before the 
November elections so that Attuma can be ruling Atlantis at that point.  
I know that creates a problem for Namorita (her appearances in FF), but 
I'll have to see if other havoc is wreaked.

It's too bad that it's not Governer Warkowski. Some state Governers have 
elections in odd years, (whereas Senators, State Representatives, and the 
Presidents get elected in Even years).  So the only way for you to go now 
is if this is some sort of Special election...but special elections are 
usually only caused by the death of the current Senator or something 
equally grave....

			*	*	*

Re: Senatorial Elections
Posted by Andy Holcombe on September 13, 2002 at 00:56:36:
In Reply to: Re: Senatorial Elections
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 11, 2002 at 20:58:43:

> 
> The problem is that I've placed this during the year following a 
presidential election

It never even dawned on me that you had moved the events of 9/11 up before 
the Presidential election.

			*	*	*

Re: Morlocks
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 14, 2002 at 06:18:25:
In Reply to: Morlocks
posted by Andy Holcombe on September 09, 2002 at 23:45:51:

> I had thought this series as an alternate reality.  Call me naive if you 
will, but I don't recall a sanctioned Sentinel program policing the streets 
of Marvel USA and executing all mutants.

I agree.  Morlocks is plainly non-canon.

The central premise of the series is that they're living underground because 
all mutants who go above ground for more than 30 minutes or so are killed by 
government-sponsored Sentinels.  This is totally irreconcilable which 
anything that we've seen in any other book.

			*	*	*

Morlock Fever!
Posted by Jeph! on September 14, 2002 at 12:10:29:
In Reply to: Re: Morlocks
posted by Paul O'Brien on September 14, 2002 at 06:18:25:

Well, there we have it.  Straight from the mouth of one who actually read 
the series.

Thanks, Paul.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Wolverine #158-#163., #165-178
Posted by Dimadick on September 10, 2002 at 05:58:13:
In Reply to: Here it is, folks!  Pages from the MU Calendar!
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 08, 2002 at 16:03:16:

  Wolverine stories don't have much influence in other titles so where they 
are going to be placed isn't that important but here is some info.

  Wolverine #158. The hole story takes place in the South China Sea. The 
first panel starts with nothing but the sea and a full moon visible. Wolverine 
saves Amiko, his step-daughter, from Zaran who kidnapped her to use as bait. 
According to his sayings Zaran wants be known as the man who killed Wolverine 
to retrieve the fame he had before his defeat by Shang-Chi. After that defeat 
contracts dried up and his reputation soured. He claims his pupil stole his 
identity and operated as Zaran until he too was defeated by Shang-Chi. Zaran 
of course fails and Wolverine returns to Japan with Amiko.

  Wolverine #159. Issue begins in New York in the office of Mister X. It's a 
sunny day.Then we shift to Xavier's insitute on Thirsday. Wolverine has a 
nightmare that he massacred the X-Men (gutted bodies of Rogue, Nightcrawler, 
Cable and Phoenix appear in the dream). Wolverine wakes up shouting. Rogue, 
Collosus and Nightcrawler try to calm him down. Wolverine says he has been 
having these dreams for months. He thinks it might have something to do with 
Apocalypse "turning his head inside out" not too long ago. Wolverine spends 
the night out trying to relax until he gets attacked by Mr. X's men. When 
Wolverine kills them all besides their commander he gets attacked by X's 
assasins T, A and Blok. TheNot a cloud in the sky.

  Wolverine #160.The same clear night with the stars visible. Sabretooth 
murders a gang of four that attacked him. Then he gets captured by the 
Weapon X programm, the director himself. Shifting back to Wolverine as the 
sun dawns his fight continues till he defeats all four off his opponents. 
Then he gets an appointment for Mr.X. who basicaly beats him to unconsiousness

  Wolverine #161. Wolverine wakes as the guest of Mr. X in one of his little 
island getaways. Mr. X tells his origin tale to Wolvie and then asks him to 
join him in his killing hunts. Wolverine gets in a berserker and attacks him. 
Mr. X loves it. He faces Wolverine with many of his throphy Weapon and 
nothing stops him. Wolverine is getting ready to kill, a still happy, Mr. X 
until Block punches him to unconsiousness. He wakes up out in the sea in a 
lifeboat watching at the clouds. Nightcrawler drikes Wolvie back to the 
island but Mr.X and his people are gone.

  Wolverine #162. Wolverine murders senator Drexel Walsh under mindcontrol 
by Weapon X. Very cloudy weather but the vegetation is as green as ever. 
Wolverine relives the murder in a nightmare. He decides to go for a drive 
to relax. He still thinks his nightmares are "some kinda aftereffect" from 
his time as Apocalypse's horseman called Death. He meets Beast they fight 
Wolvie wins. Later they go out for some food. They are shocked when news 
of the Senator's murder come on screen with Wolverine clearely visible.

Wolverine #163. Wolverine has shaved his head and has gone hiding with 
Beast "somewhere down South". Very cloudy weather. News report of President 
Bush's speech at senators Drexel Walsh' funeral. The weather has cleared in 
the following panel. Nick Fury and Sharon Carter discuss his case. Maverick 
gives some info to Wolvie. Mr. X calls Wolvie to tell him that to find 
answers he must look into his past. Wolverine and Beast face the Shivering 
Man and wins. Then they get captured by S.H.I.E.L.D agent Brent Jackson.

  Wolverine #164. Sorry I missed that issue.

  Wolverine #165. Begins in Dr. Strange's sanctum sanctorum, in Greenwich 
Village, New York. Dr. Strange is screaming and Wong ask him what is the 
matter. Strange says he has a premonition of the reemergence of a great 
evil that has not seen the sun of light for centuries. Cloudy weather in 
The Cage. The reemerging evil is Mauvais. It's weeks since the senator's 
murder. Wolverine still thinks that Apocalypse has some hold on him. Mauvais 
eats some flesh of Wolverine and an eyeball and then escapes. Then 
Sabretooth and Weapon X break Wolverine and Beast out of prison.

  Wolverine #166. Wolverine prisoner of Weapon X. The director explains 
his origin and oofers to recruit Wolverine in the programm. He has think 
of recruiting others including Nightcrawler, Chamber, Rogue, Marrow, Toad 
and Deadpool. Offers to tell him his origin. Wolverine escapes with the 
Beast thanks to the help of the Shivering Man. Several days later Wolverine 
has some drinks with Nick Fury who had hired Shivering Man.

  Wolverine #167-168. Wolverine goes to Madripoor as Patch. And to find 
out who was the mysterious caller during his days as fugitive, Mr. X) he 
enters the Bloodsport turnament, under the supervision of his wife Viper.

  Here are the fights:
Round One.
1) Oddball vs Headhunter. Headhunter decapitates his opponent.
2) Gamecock vs Puma. Puma turns his opponent to pieces.
3) Cat vs Taskmaster. Taskmaster easily defeats his opponent but refuses 
to kill unless he is paid for it.
4) Zaran vs Razorfist. Zaran cuts his opponents throat.
5) Anaconda vs Forearm. Anaconda brakes her opponent's neck.
6) Eel vs Toad. Toad breaks his opponent's spine.
7) Patch vs Speed Demon. Patch beats his opponent to unconsiousness but 
refuses to kill him.

  Round Two.
1) Taskmaster vs Zaran. Taskmaster outmaneuvers his opponents and renders 
him unconscious.
2) Anaconda vs Puma. Puma slashes his opponent's throat.
3) Patch vs Toad. Patch beats his cocky opponent into unconsiousness.
4) Headhunter vs Mr. X. Mr. X decapitates his opponent.

 Round Three.
1) Patch vs Puma. Patch throws his opponent to the electrified fence.
2) Taskmaster vs Mr. X. Mr. X ridicules his opponent but is not allowed to 
kill him.

  The final.

Patch vs Mr. X. Mr. X wins despite the enraged Taskmaster's attempt to kill 
him. Wolverine attempt to kill Mr. X but he escapes. After the fight informs 
him that Ogun is back.

  Wolverine #169. Under the cloudy weather Wolverine and Viper confont Ogun 
who takes over various people to confuse his opponents. Under the full moon 
Wolverinme fights a Viper taken over by Ogun. Wolvie guts her Ogun's spirit 
is unable to take over Wolvie's troubled mind and is to afraid to stay in 
that of Viper's. It cannot find another host and then it is gone. Wolvie 
forces Viper to divorce him in order to help her survive.

  Wolverine Annual 2001. In New York, under the full moon Wolvie faces 
Bloodscream who prays on homeless people. Bloodscream breaks Vermin out of 
Ravencroft institute. They are both under the control of Mauvais. In the 
second story Wolvie is in Canada investigating the small town of Holly. 
Snowing everywhere. The entire town is dead. Wolvie meets and befriends 
Father Braur, a sword-fighter priest. Apparently the whole town was 
worshipping a Plodex bear-like creature as a god, and kept it prisoner 
for forty years. Then it escaped and killed them all. Wolvie kills it and 
saves father Braun and the shreriff's deputy, the only survivors.

  Wolverine #170. Mauvais kills a contestant of the "Stay Alive" gameshow 
to replace him. He leaves Bloodsceam and Vermin waiting for him in New York. 
Wolvie , still in Canada, watces Mauvais killing all the contestants in front 
of the camera somewhere in the Arctic. Wolverine decides to hunt him.

  Wolverine #171-172. Its snowing heavily and Wolverine, Mauvais and Wendigo 
are facing each other in battle simultaniously. Mauvais kills Wendigo and 
eats his heart. Then he transforms into Wendigo and turns to fight Wolverine. 
He is about to kill him when Alpha Flight appears to stop him. They face him 
and defeat him. Mauvais is then exiled to the dimension of the Great Beasts.,

  Wolverine #173. Under Sabretooth's orders Omega Red and Lady Deathstrike  
hunt down Wolvie's loved ones. Nightcrawler is thrown into the river to die. 
Then as Wolvie still speaks with the Shaman James McDonald and Heather 
Hudson's plain is sabotaged and they crush. In Japan Yukio is cripled and 
Amiko abducted. Cyclops informs Wolverine of Nightcrawler's fishing out of 
the East river, the Beast trying to heal him and that the mansion is on high 
alert in case of an attack. Wolvie tells him that he is the actual target 
of the attack and tells him to check on Kitty, Jubilee and Carol Danvers.

  Wolverine #174. Wolverine is in Mariko's grave in Japan. The trees are 
full with flowers. Wolvie travels to Las Vegas to face Omega Red, Lady 
Deathstrike and Sabretooth who have Amiko as a prisoner. Cloudy weather. 
They beat him.

  Wolverine #175. Sabretooth fools his "allies" and teleports himself, 
Wolvie and Amiko near the old Weapon X base. Underr tre obligatory full 
moon, the two opponents face each other in the woods among the green 
vegetation. Wolvie "dies". It is the fifth anniversarie of Mariko's death.

  Wolverine #176. Wolverine has a near-death experience for 23 minutes. Then 
he returns to life and escapes. In the mansionm later, under the full moon, 
Wolvie stops his medidation when someone knocks the mansion's door. Its 
Amiko healed and returned by the Director of Weapon X.

  Wolverine #177. Raining in Greenwich Village. Wolvie meets Father Braun 
healed and facing his corrupt mentor Cardinal Panzer. Through the night 
he faces Panzer's asssassins they face Panzer's assassins until they loose 
and get captured.

  Wolverine #178. Three days later Wolvie escapes. He faces the assassins 
inside the Vatican and kills their leader. Then he faces Panzer. Panzer 
kills Braun. Wolvie threatens to kill him and then leaves.

  Not very important for the Marvel Universe. See if you find something 
interesting.

			*	*	*

Re: Here it is, folks!  Pages from the MU Calendar!
Posted by Kevin  on September 10, 2002 at 12:01:56:
In Reply to: Here it is, folks!  Pages from the MU Calendar!
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 08, 2002 at 16:03:16:

Hey, thanks for the great reading. It's a lot to sort through, and I'm still 
kinda  dazed, but you have the start of something good here.

> Captain America v4 #1  FB  FB
> Captain America v4 #1  FB
> 	September 10 and 11.  This flashback occurs seven months before 
CA4 1, which occurs on Easter.

> Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36
> 	A flashback issue set on September 11.  Placement of 9-11 way back 
before Maximum Security works if: 1) the Heroes charity book, showing the 
X-Treme X-Men team on the scene at 9-11 is non-canon; 2) the twin towers are 
not shown in any Marvel books listed hereafter (they are indeed in ASM2 26, 
but that occurs before now); and 3) we place Cyclops appearance here after 
The Search for Cyclops series, despite any writers purported intention to 
the contrary.  The good news: placement here is not a problem for Hawkeye.  
I wont touch on the blind Kingpin issue, as I dont collect DD2.
> 	Can we place this a year later?  Two potential problems with that: 
Thors classic costume appears here (and the following 9/11 would occur, 
according to my calculations, during the Thor-as-King-of-Asgard-over-Manhattan 
time period), and all comics with references to 9-11 would have to be shifted 
forward as well.  Not a good idea.
> 	Putting 9-11 after Search for Cyclops and before Maximum Security 
and UX 388 is the only way I can make ASM2 36 work as a canonical story.  So 
what happened to Scott after this appearance?  I suggest that, given his 
emotional state, he hung around on the fringes for a while, not participating 
in X-Men adventures (at least published ones) but managing to be intimate 
with Jean until November (five months before X 116), to buy Christmas gifts 
for teammates (XU 31/2, although he seems to have declined celebrating the 
holiday in X 109), and to attend Peters funeral (W2 176-FB).  Just because 
no one was shown as concerned about Scotts status in issues of X and UX 
during this time doesnt mean they werent expressing concern between issues.  
And I dont believe anyone expressed a belief that Scott was dead during this 
time.
> 	Whaddaya say, folks?  I think Jeph has warmed up to this idea...

A couple of thoughts:  

This "Heroes Charity event" that shows the X-Treme Team helping out at Ground 
Zero. Is it for certain that it can't be Canon?  Or can Storm be in ASM #36 
on one day, and this "Xtreme team at Ground Zero" happen days or weeks later? 

You also say that ASM2  #26 has the Twin Towers in it, but you place it 
before 9/11.  But you have ASM2 #25 as happening after 9/11 on this calender. 
How can that be? Don't certain comics  have to be linear?

			*	*	*

Questions about 9-11
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 10, 2002 at 21:30:16:
In Reply to: Re: Here it is, folks!  Pages from the MU Calendar!
posted by Kevin  on September 10, 2002 at 12:01:56:

> A couple of thoughts:  

> This "Heroes Charity event" that shows the X-Treme Team helping out at 
Ground Zero. Is it for certain that it can't be Canon?  Or can Storm be in 
ASM #36 on one day, and this "Xtreme team at Ground Zero" happen days or 
weeks later? 

I'll let Jeph, our resident X-Men specialist, address that one, if he has 
the "Heroes Charity" book.  I take it that there's no indication of the 
amount of time that has passed between 9-11 and that issue?  Are they 
searching for survivors?  Are they cleaning up debris?

> You also say that ASM2  #26 has the Twin Towers in it, but you place it 
before 9/11.  But you have ASM2 #25 as happening after 9/11 on this calender. 
How can that be? Don't certain comics  have to be linear?

They don't have to be, but they usually are.  And in this case, they should 
be.

Good catch, Kevin.  I made the observation about the WTC in ASM2 26 at one 
point in the compilation of the calendar, then later filled in the Maximum 
Security issues, not realizing that it placed ASM2 26 after 9-11.

And I just discovered another goof.  The Vision is with the Avengers in ASM2 
36, so 9-11 should occur *after* his return to the team in A3 31.  Given the 
Wasp's comments in A3 31, the Vision had not been heard from for a while.

I'll take this opportunity to bring up several questions about 9-11 in the 
MU...

1) Is ASM2 36 canon?  Chronological difficulties (Cyclops, Hawkeye, etc.) 
aside, I know people have had real issues with Doom acting completely out 
of character here.  Kingpin -- okay, it's his town.  Magneto -- understandable 
given his personal history of terror.  If major characters DO have central 
importance, as Sean notes, how do we account for Doom in ASM2 36?  Ash 
irritating his eyes?

2) If it is canon, did it actually happen on September 11?  This is where I 
need help: how many references can we find in the MU to this devastating 
event occurring in "September," on "September 11," or referred to as "9-11?"

3) If we have references only to "9-11," how do we interpret that in the 
context of the Marvel Universe?  November 9 (ala European convention)?  
"9-1-1," the code for emergency calls?

4) What exactly happened in MU's 9-11?  Events unfold in ASM2 36 pretty much 
as they did in the real world (even the flight over Pennsylvania).  No 
reference is made specifically to the World Trade Center, but to "two large 
towers" and the site shown is that of the WTC (at least in the real-world 
counterpart of MU New York).  Aside from ASM2 26, are there other depictions 
of the WTC standing in comics I listed after 9-11 (or others I didn't list 
but would be placed here)?

Sean would argue that the WTC towers in the distance in one panel in ASM2 26 
can be ignored as irrelevant backdrop.  I'm willing to concur with that if 
stronger evidence places 9-11 on September 11 and Maximum Security (which 
precedes ASM2 26) after September 11.  If the standing WTC plays a prominent 
role in another comic placed after Sept. 11, then it's time to do some more 
noodling.

--Paul

			*	*	*

9-11
Posted by SKleefeld on September 10, 2002 at 22:24:43:
In Reply to: Questions about 9-11
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 10, 2002 at 21:30:16:

> I'll take this opportunity to bring up several questions about 9-11 in 
the MU...

> 1) Is ASM2 36 canon?  Chronological difficulties (Cyclops, Hawkeye, etc.) 
aside, I know people have had real issues with Doom acting completely out of 
character here.  Kingpin -- okay, it's his town.  Magneto -- understandable 
given his personal history of terror.  If major characters DO have central 
importance, as Sean notes, how do we account for Doom in ASM2 36?  Ash 
irritating his eyes?

See, the problem with Doom lies deeper than that. I could almost dismiss 
the tear as just the odd moment of weakness. It's a bit out of character, 
but we could justify it by saying there were some Latverians in the WTC. 
But Doom has no tear ducts in the first place! He's expressly said as much! 
He is physically incapable of crying.

And we can't really throw a Doombot in there since a robot wouldn't cry 
either! (Androids, that's another story!)

I honestly don't know what to do with this one. 

> 2) If it is canon, did it actually happen on September 11?  This is where 
I need help: how many references can we find in the MU to this devastating 
event occurring in "September," on "September 11," or referred to as "9-11?"

Offhand, I know it's mentioned in Sweet Charity and Deadline as 9-11 (or 
some variation on that). Cap v4 #1 only references September IIRC.

> 3) If we have references only to "9-11," how do we interpret that in the 
context of the Marvel Universe?  November 9 (ala European convention)?  
"9-1-1," the code for emergency calls?

How about 9:11 a.m.? That's not actually too far off real-world events 
anyway; maybe the MU terrorists took a few minutes longer.

> 4) What exactly happened in MU's 9-11?  Events unfold in ASM2 36 pretty 
much as they did in the real world (even the flight over Pennsylvania).  No 
reference is made specifically to the World Trade Center, but to "two large 
towers" and the site shown is that of the WTC (at least in the real-world 
counterpart of MU New York).  Aside from ASM2 26, are there other depictions 
of the WTC standing in comics I listed after 9-11 (or others I didn't list 
but would be placed here)?

I seem to recall a similar discussion earlier (it may have just been emails 
between Jeph and myself) and the general consensus was that the WTC weren't 
really shown vividly anywhere. I think there's a potential shot in a recent 
Thunderbolts (maybe two or three issues back?) but it's obscured just enough 
that you can't definitively say it was the WTC.

> Sean would argue that the WTC towers in the distance in one panel in ASM2 
26 can be ignored as irrelevant backdrop.  I'm willing to concur with that 
if stronger evidence places 9-11 on September 11 and Maximum Security (which 
precedes ASM2 26) after September 11.  If the standing WTC plays a prominent 
role in another comic placed after Sept. 11, then it's time to do some more 
noodling.

BINGO! Unless the WTC (or any other building) plays a unique and substantive 
role in the story, it's just window dressing. (I'll be damned! I'm not just 
ranting to "hear" myself!)

We would start to get in what I consider a grey area if, for example, we had 
Rick and Marlo having dinner at Windows to the World. Fortunately, I don't 
think we have any problems like that.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Doom
Posted by Dimadick on September 11, 2002 at 02:59:47:
In Reply to: 9-11
posted by SKleefeld on September 10, 2002 at 22:24:43:

> See, the problem with Doom lies deeper than that. I could almost dismiss 
the tear as just the odd moment of weakness. It's a bit out of character, 
but we could justify it by saying there were some Latverians in the WTC. 
But Doom has no tear ducts in the first place! He's expressly said as much! 
He is physically incapable of crying.

  In which issue does he make that claim? If that is true the Good Doctor 
has some good chances to join Deardevil and Kingpin in the list of blind 
people! The basic role of tears is to protect the cornea from germs. Without 
tears the eye would be easy prey for many germs. Also the tears constantly 
moisten the eyes with every blink of the eyelids. Without that process the 
eye would turn dry and eventualy useless. Is Doom blind or he just lied 
when he made that claim?

> And we can't really throw a Doombot in there since a robot wouldn't cry 
either! (Androids, that's another story!)

  Actualy I would consider a few of the Doombots to be androids instead of 
robots. They seem to not only act like Doom or copying him but also having 
original feelings. Remember that one that had dinner with Storm and thought 
of himself as a lion and her as a lioness? That sounded like attraction. And 
the original never saw that kind of attraction. They don't seem to act 
according to their original programming only.

			*	*	*

Re: Doom
Posted by Sean Curtin on September 11, 2002 at 12:25:51:
In Reply to: Doom
posted by Dimadick on September 11, 2002 at 02:59:47:

There was also an intelligent, self-aware Doombot in the early issues of 
the '90s Deathlok series.

--Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: Doom
Posted by Stefan Anundi on February 21, 2003 at 17:12:39:
In Reply to: Doom
posted by Dimadick on September 11, 2002 at 02:59:47:

> The basic role of tears is to protect the cornea from germs. Without tears 
the eye would be easy prey for many germs. Also the tears constantly moisten 
the eyes with every blink of the eyelids. Without that process the eye would 
turn dry and eventualy useless. Is Doom blind or he just lied when he made 
that claim?

Well, maybe he's just a frequent user of eye-drops. ;)

			*	*	*

Re: Doom
Posted by Inky on May 16, 2003 at 03:31:02:
In Reply to: Doom
posted by Dimadick on September 11, 2002 at 02:59:47:

> Remember that one that had dinner with Storm and thought of himself as a 
lion and her as a lioness? That sounded like attraction.

Could you tell me what issue that was of what comic? I am searching for it 
mightily and can find no leads!

			*	*	*

Re: 9-11
Posted by Kevin  on September 11, 2002 at 09:03:45:
In Reply to: 9-11
posted by SKleefeld on September 10, 2002 at 22:24:43:

First, Paul, you made a good point about the Vision returning to the Avengers 
in A#31. That storyline runs thru to issue #34 pretty much uninterrrupted. 
Issue #35 is the Maximum Security Crossover. Issue #36 pick up "a few days" 
after Maximum Security wraps up.  Since we "seem" to have narrowed down ASM#36 
as occuring either right before or right after Maximum Security, you've either 
got to have ASM#36 as happening between Avengers #34 and #35, or between 
Avengers#35 and #36.  Or possibly between #37 and #38?  God, my head is 
spinning again.

> 
> > I'll take this opportunity to bring up several questions about 9-11 in 
the MU...

> > 1) Is ASM2 36 canon?  Chronological difficulties (Cyclops, Hawkeye, etc.) 
aside, I know people have had real issues with Doom acting completely out of 
character here.  Kingpin -- okay, it's his town.  Magneto -- understandable 
given his personal history of terror.  If major characters DO have central 
importance, as Sean notes, how do we account for Doom in ASM2 36?  Ash 
irritating his eyes?

> See, the problem with Doom lies deeper than that. I could almost dismiss 
the tear as just the odd moment of weakness. It's a bit out of character, 
but we could justify it by saying there were some Latverians in the WTC. 
But Doom has no tear ducts in the first place! He's expressly said as much! 
He is physically incapable of crying.

> And we can't really throw a Doombot in there since a robot wouldn't cry 
either! (Androids, that's another story!)

> I honestly don't know what to do with this one. 

> > 2) If it is canon, did it actually happen on September 11?  This is where 
I need help: how many references can we find in the MU to this devastating 
event occurring in "September," on "September 11," or referred to as "9-11?"

> Offhand, I know it's mentioned in Sweet Charity and Deadline as 9-11 (or 
some variation on that). Cap v4 #1 only references September IIRC.

Hey, 9/11 is going to end up being a set date in the MU, that much is certain 
from CAP vol. 4 #1 happening 7 months before Easter, and thanks to those 
references in Deadline.

But after some time passes, I believe it will have to be a shifting date, 
thanks to our natural tendency to twist history to accomodate a story. Look 
at how CAP in WW2 gets twisted around every few years. As many new WW2 stories 
get added, it's amazing CAP found time to breath. I'm saying that over time, 
as more and more 9/11 stories get written into the MU, it's going to mess up 
our calender even more.

> > 3) If we have references only to "9-11," how do we interpret that in the 
context of the Marvel Universe?  November 9 (ala European convention)?  
"9-1-1," the code for emergency calls?

How about 9:11 a.m.? That's not actually too far off real-world events 
anyway; maybe the MU terrorists took a few minutes longer.

> > 4) What exactly happened in MU's 9-11?  Events unfold in ASM2 36 pretty 
much as they did in the real world (even the flight over Pennsylvania).  No 
reference is made specifically to the World Trade Center, but to "two large 
towers" and the site shown is that of the WTC (at least in the real-world 
counterpart of MU New York).  Aside from ASM2 26, are there other depictions 
of the WTC standing in comics I listed after 9-11 (or others I didn't list 
but would be placed here)?

> I seem to recall a similar discussion earlier (it may have just been emails 
between Jeph and myself) and the general consensus was that the WTC weren't 
really shown vividly anywhere. I think there's a potential shot in a recent 
Thunderbolts (maybe two or three issues back?) but it's obscured just enough 
that you can't definitively say it was the WTC.

> > Sean would argue that the WTC towers in the distance in one panel in ASM2 
26 can be ignored as irrelevant backdrop.  I'm willing to concur with that if 
stronger evidence places 9-11 on September 11 and Maximum Security (which 
precedes ASM2 26) after September 11.  If the standing WTC plays a prominent 
role in another comic placed after Sept. 11, then it's time to do some more 
noodling.

> BINGO! Unless the WTC (or any other building) plays a unique and 
substantive role in the story, it's just window dressing. (I'll be damned! 
I'm not just ranting to "hear" myself!)

> We would start to get in what I consider a grey area if, for example, we 
had Rick and Marlo having dinner at Windows to the World. Fortunately, I 
don't think we have any problems like that.

While we may consider the WTC's appearance in ASM#26 as only topical, aren't 
we leaning more towards placing ASM#36 as happening after Maximum Security, 
and since ASM#24 was the MS crossover issue, ASM #26 could still easily 
happen before 9/11, right? But still, it is only topical...

			*	*	*

9-11 Fever!
Posted by Jeph! on September 11, 2002 at 18:56:41:
In Reply to: Re: 9-11
posted by Kevin  on September 11, 2002 at 09:03:45:

I'll be damned.  I'm posting about the MU representation of 9/11 ON the 
anniversary of that same dark day.  Surely this is the most trivial form 
of "remembrance" I could possibly be doing.  I should go take a walk outside 
or something.

By the way, did anyone notice that THIS MONTH, the month where it matters 
most and the month where comics are actually PUBLISHED on 9/11, Marvel 
dropped the "WTC" remembrance logo from all its covers?  Smooth.

And -- I must go on -- X-Men Unlimited #38, published today, featured a 
story about Kitty mourning Peter on the one-year anniversary of his death.  
Now, I don't want to get into the passage of Marvel time and all that, but 
did anyone notice the subject matter -- mourning a lost loved one on the 
one-year anniversary of their death -- published on 9/11/02?  The whole 
issue was about the various stages of grief, and honestly, when I made the 
connection, it really got to me.  I wonder, was this intentional?

Okay -- enough personal junk -- on to the important business of putting 
22-page pamphlets into an "order".

> First, Paul, you made a good point about the Vision returning to the 
Avengers in A#31. That storyline runs thru to issue #34 pretty much 
uninterrrupted. Issue #35 is the Maximum Security Crossover. Issue #36 pick 
up "a few days" after Maximum Security wraps up.  Since we "seem" to have 
narrowed down ASM#36 as occuring either right before or right after Maximum 
Security, you've either got to have ASM#36 as happening between Avengers #34 
and #35, or between Avengers#35 and #36.  Or possibly between #37 and #38?  
God, my head is spinning again.

As I've said before, based on Cyclops' presence, ASM2 #36 has to be after 
UX #387, which is part of maxSec -- so the gap between A3 #34-35 is out.  
That leaves two: between #35-36 or #37-38.

Dammit, though -- just after the T-Bolts/Avengers crossover is a PERFECT 
rationale for Hawkeye to be with the Avengers...

>>> 2) If it is canon, did it actually happen on September 11?  This is where 
I need help: how many references can we find in the MU to this devastating 
event occurring in "September," on "September 11," or referred to as "9-11?"

I considered this too -- all we've seen so far was "9-11", and to me that 
could be anything:  November 9th, 9-1-1, 9:11am -- but honestly, one of 
these days some Marvel writer is going to use the explicit term "September 
11th", and we'll be stuck.

I think, if there's no way to rationalize it onto Paul's calendar, he's just 
going to have to give up and declare it Topical.

I've been thinking about this:  how many other real-world events, from 
1961-up, have been portrayed in an MU book?  Nixon stepping down?  
Vietnam -- specific battles or dates?  Anything?

I'd love to find some other relatively historic event that is also (a) canon 
in the Marvel Universe, and (b) referred to by date.  And then I'd like to 
see if Paul's calendar has that event occuring on that date (not necessarily 
the year, but the calendar date).

Ten years from now, someone's going to do a Marvel story about the FF 
remembering the ten-year anniversary pof the WTC disaster.  And then the next 
issue, they're going to celebrate the 15-year anniversary of their rocket 
flight.

THEN what will we do, eh?

Anyone: find me another instance of a real-world event that was incorporated 
into the MU at the time, but nowadays must be ruled topical -- or at least, 
the date it occured on must now be ruled topical.  Once we have precedent, 
I believe I can get Paul to break on this.

It's just the MU chronologists' dumb luck that this is the only tragedy in 
recent memory whose generally-accepted name is also its date.

> Hey, 9/11 is going to end up being a set date in the MU, that much is 
certain from CAP vol. 4 #1 happening 7 months before Easter, and thanks to 
those references in Deadline.<p>This is true.

> But after some time passes, I believe it will have to be a shifting date

This, I believe, is also true.

> I'm saying that over time, as more and more 9/11 stories get written into 
the MU, it's going to mess up our calender even more.

Preach on, my man!

>> Aside from ASM2 26, are there other depictions of the WTC standing in 
comics I listed after 9-11 (or others I didn't list but would be placed 
here)?

The only one I know about offhand is from Thunderbolts #56, where a photo 
of Manhattan is used for the shot of Graviton lifting the city.  The WTC 
towers are visible, but it is blurry and vague.  Condsider it "artist error", 
even though the art was put together before the tragedy.

You want weird?  Check out the next-to-last page of ASM2 #36 for a shot of 
what looks like CONSTRUCTION occuring at the WTC site.  I wonder ... Damage 
Control has fixed that building at least twice before (after X-Force #3-4, 
for one) ... is it possible that in the MU, they've put the things back up 
again??

>> Unless the WTC (or any other building) plays a unique and substantive 
role in the story, it's just window dressing. (I'll be damned! I'm not just 
ranting to "hear" myself!)

Yes you are.  ;)

And so am I.

Happy "anniversary", everyone.  :P  Hope your days were okay.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: 9-11 Fever!
Posted by Jhaeman on September 11, 2002 at 20:27:30:
In Reply to: 9-11 Fever!
posted by Jeph! on September 11, 2002 at 18:56:41:

> I've been thinking about this:  how many other real-world events, from 
1961-up, have been portrayed in an MU book?  Nixon stepping down?  Vietnam -- 
specific battles or dates?  Anything?

In reference to Vietnam, Iron Man # 144 has a flashback story that takes 
place in Vietnam explicitly, where Iron Man meets Jim Rhodes for the first 
time--it's filled with period references (Viet Cong, American defense 
perimiters, etc.) but does not state the year or a particular date.  Not 
sure if this helps or not...  Of course, if Stark and Rhodes did actually 
meet during the Vietnam War on a real-world calendar, they'd each be about 
50 years old now.

			*	*	*

Re: 9-11 Fever!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 11, 2002 at 21:34:14:
In Reply to: 9-11 Fever!
posted by Jeph! on September 11, 2002 at 18:56:41:

>  
> As I've said before, based on Cyclops' presence, ASM2 #36 has to be after 
UX #387, which is part of maxSec -- so the gap between A3 #34-35 is out.  
That leaves two: between #35-36 or #37-38.

> Dammit, though -- just after the T-Bolts/Avengers crossover is a PERFECT 
rationale for Hawkeye to be with the Avengers...

Yup.  If we plop 9-11 after A3 35, then we have to deal with Hawkeye.  But 
hey, if he can be released to deal with Alkhema, surely they can let him out 
to deal with the carnage in NYC.

>:  November 9th, 9-1-1, 9:11am -- but honestly, one of these days some 
Marvel writer is going to use the explicit term "September 11th", and we'll 
be stuck.

> I think, if there's no way to rationalize it onto Paul's calendar, he's 
just going to have to give up and declare it Topical.

It's just that I'd rather have a topical reference made once, not over and 
over and over.

> Anyone: find me another instance of a real-world event that was incorporated 
into the MU at the time, but nowadays must be ruled topical -- or at least, 
the date it occured on must now be ruled topical.  Once we have precedent, I 
believe I can get Paul to break on this.

Nope, sorry.  Let's say Marvel shows the first "real" lunar landing.  That 
doesn't mean it had to happen on July 20 in the MU anymore than it had to 
happen in 1969.  HOWEVER, if MU characters kept referring to "July 20" then 
I'd be concerned.  

In other words, I wouldn't automatically assign a calendar date to a real 
world "event" shown in the MU.  Note my attempts to deal with 9-11.  However, 
I do like to think that seasons and holidays in the MU occur in the same 
spots on a calendar as they do in the real world.  And, yes, some of them 
will end up being TOPICAL because calendar placement is trumped by other, 
more important considerations.  George O. wasn't afraid to deem things 
topical, and neither am I.  But like him, I see some merit in calendar 
placement and the attempt to minimize topical references as much as we can.

Hey, I'm the guy who proposed "topical characters" like the U.S. President...

> > I'm saying that over time, as more and more 9/11 stories get written 
into the MU, it's going to mess up our calender even more.

> Preach on, my man!

Does that mean we have to like it?  Stinkin' retcons.  Let's alter 
established MU canon for the sake of making the stories "more accessible" 
by dragging out real-world topical references.  Grrr.

> The only one I know about offhand is from Thunderbolts #56, where a photo 
of Manhattan is used for the shot of Graviton lifting the city.  The WTC 
towers are visible, but it is blurry and vague.  Condsider it "artist error", 
even though the art was put together before the tragedy.

Dang!  Well at least Graviton didn't say, "Watch as I lift Manhattan, 
including the colossal World Trade Center, into the sky!"  If it messes up 
chronological placement, it's as worthwhile as some of those full moons 
artists love to draw.  The MU has about eight of 'em a month. ;)

(But that doesn't mean we discount them all, Jeph and Sean.)

> You want weird?  Check out the next-to-last page of ASM2 #36 for a shot of 
what looks like CONSTRUCTION occuring at the WTC site.  I wonder ... Damage 
Control has fixed that building at least twice before (after X-Force #3-4, 
for one) ... is it possible that in the MU, they've put the things back up 
again??

Hmmm.  How many places do we see the devastated WTC site after the MU's 
9-11?

			*	*	*

Re: 9-11 Fever!
Posted by Jeph! on September 11, 2002 at 22:45:07:
In Reply to: Re: 9-11 Fever!
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 11, 2002 at 21:34:14:

> Yup.  If we plop 9-11 after A3 35, then we have to deal with Hawkeye.  But 
hey, if he can be released to deal with Alkhema, surely they can let him out 
to deal with the carnage in NYC.

Yep -- but, letting him out TOO many times strains credibility.  I'm still 
of the mind that there's a nice slim gap between TB #49-50, and Hawk ran up 
to NYC to check in with the Avengers, "as is inactive-Avenger policy during 
home-soil disaster conditions" (eh, eh?).

> It's just that I'd rather have a topical reference made once, not over and 
over and over.

I understand.  Really I do.  But, well ... ::points at Cyclops::

Is there no way you can simply condense the July-August of your current 
calendar into July, and push Maximum Security backwards to Sept. 4-8?  That 
would solve it all, right there.

> > Anyone: find me another instance of a real-world event that was 
incorporated into the MU at the time, but nowadays must be ruled topical -- or 
at least, the date it occured on must now be ruled topical.

> Nope, sorry.  Let's say Marvel shows the first "real" lunar landing.  That 
doesn't mean it had to happen on July 20 in the MU anymore than it had to 
happen in 1969.  HOWEVER, if MU characters kept referring to "July 20" then 
I'd be concerned.

Well, that's what I meant -- if anywhere in the MU they assigned a specific 
date to a specific "real" event.  I'd be curious if your calendar was able 
to accomodate it happening on that date -- and if not, what you did about it.

> And, yes, some of them will end up being TOPICAL because calendar placement 
is trumped by other, more important considerations.

Like a Cyclops appearance?  ;)

> I see some merit in ... the attempt to minimize topical references as much 
as we can.

I agree.  Keep on truckin', and I'll be here to catch you when you admit 
defeat.  ;)

(Kidding!  Honestly -- more power to you, but *I've* given up.)

> Hey, I'm the guy who proposed "topical characters" like the U.S. President...

That I just can't get into.  Give me time.  :)

(Then again, who cares, as long as the election stories fall in November on 
your calendar.)

Hey, if you push back MaxSec to Sept., can you push the USAgent series into 
November?

> Does that mean we have to like it?  Stinkin' retcons.  Let's alter 
established MU canon for the sake of making the stories "more accessible" by 
dragging out real-world topical references.  Grrr.

I don't see how the publication of ASM2 #36 was a "retcon" of anything ... 
yes, it's a conflicting appearance of some folks but I don't see how it 
"undid" anything we thought we knew about the MU.  From Stan Lee to Joe 
Quesada, Marvel folks ahve always taken pride that, unlike DC's Metropolis 
or Gotham, Marvel's stories have more or less taken place in the real world 
right outside your door.  I don't fault them for dealing with 9/11, and I 
sure as hell wouldn't call it a "retcon" to have done so.

> Dang!  Well at least Graviton didn't say, "Watch as I lift Manhattan, 
including the colossal World Trade Center, into the sky!"

Good lord.  Has anyone ever said that?  That's funny.  ;)

> (But that doesn't mean we discount them all, Jeph and Sean.)

Oh goodness no.  How can we, with eight a month?

>> I wonder ... Damage Control has fixed that building at least twice before 
(after X-Force #3-4, for one) ... is it possible that in the MU, they've put 
the things back up again??

> Hmmm.  How many places do we see the devastated WTC site after the MU's 
9-11?

None, as far as I know.  THAT I'd consider tacky.  But I was joking -- I'm 
fairly sure that the general consensus is, they left 'em down in the MU, and 
they'll be building the same memorial site that we eventually will.  Don't 
make the assumption that they've been repaired in the MU, please.  That's 
looking for trouble on many levels.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: 9-11 Fever!
Posted by Kevin on September 12, 2002 at 15:18:48:
In Reply to: Re: 9-11 Fever!
posted by Jeph! on September 11, 2002 at 22:45:07:

> > Yup.  If we plop 9-11 after A3 35, then we have to deal with Hawkeye.  But 
hey, if he can be released to deal with Alkhema, surely they can let him out 
to deal with the carnage in NYC.

> Yep -- but, letting him out TOO many times strains credibility.  I'm still 
of the mind that there's a nice slim gap between TB #49-50, and Hawk ran up 
to NYC to check in with the Avengers, "as is inactive-Avenger policy during 
home-soil disaster conditions" (eh, eh?).

Of course, you could just use my old theory that ASM#36 happens immediately 
after the events of "The Ultron Imperative", before they had a chance to 
ship Hawkeye back off to jail.  I'm sure they would have delayed sending 
him back to jail for 9/11.

MWUHAHAHAHA!!!  I've successfully revived a dead topic!  I'm evil!  Of 
course, then you have to deal with the problems of Magneto being injured in 
the X-Books, and with the Scarlet Witch's costume.

Oh well. Hmmm.  Is there a chance that Magneto's injuries can be placed 
after 9/11? Then you would only have to deal with the Scarlet Witch's 
costume.

But, as Jeph said, the best place may be between T-Bolts 49 and 50.  Hmmm...
But what about this? 9/11 happens between T-Bolts 50 *main story* and 
T-Bolts 50 Epilogue 3 and 4?

It's right after Hawkeye is arrested at the end of the main story in T-Bolts 
50, and before they ship him off to the Seagate storyline, (remember, one 
could possibly concieve of the notion that Hawkeye had a trial where he 
plead guilty, and during that trial, he was in a jailcell, maybe around D.C. 
Yeah, just speculation, but it gives 9/11 a chance to happen before Hawkeye 
is shipped off to Seagate.

And it also explains why Hawkeye isn't with the T-Bolts at Ground Zero in 
ASM#36: he's seperated from them after the main story of T-Bolts 50.

			*	*	*

Re: 9-11 Fever!
Posted by Jeph! on September 12, 2002 at 16:05:44:
In Reply to: Re: 9-11 Fever!
posted by Kevin on September 12, 2002 at 15:18:48:

> Of course, you could just use my old theory that ASM#36 happens immediately 
after the events of "The Ultron Imperative", before they had a chance to ship 
Hawkeye back off to jail.  I'm sure they would have delayed sending him back 
to jail for 9/11.  MWUHAHAHAHA!!!  I've successfully revived a dead topic!

I don't know about "successfully."

> I'm evil!

Yes.

> Hmmm.  Is there a chance that Magneto's injuries can be placed after 9/11?

They ARE after 9/11 -- the way *I've* placed it.  What you mean is, can 
Magneto's injuries be placed after "Ultron Imperative", so you can place 9/11 
after it as well?

The answer is -- Magneto's injuries occur in an arc that begins in X #111.  
Due to Quicksilver's cross-appearances, X #111 has to occur just before A3 
#38.  And "Ultron Imperative", because of in-book references, has to occur 
after A3 #44.

So ... no.  Even if X #111-113 take place over two weeks, and A3 #38-44 take 
place over two days, Magneto's declaration of WAR against the USA was in 
#111 -- before A3 #38 -- and he wouldn't be welcome in the States after that 
point, even if it WAS before his injuries.  Besides, he'd be busily thumping 
the war drum -- why would he make another trip to the USA just to help sift 
wreckage?

So ... no.

> But, as Jeph said, the best place may be between T-Bolts 49 and 50.  Hmmm...
But what about this? 9/11 happens between T-Bolts 50 *main story* and T-Bolts 
50 Epilogue 3 and 4?

> It's right after Hawkeye is arrested at the end of the main story in T-Bolts 
50, and before they ship him off to the Seagate storyline, (remember, one 
could possibly concieve of the notion that Hawkeye had a trial where he plead 
guilty, and during that trial, he was in a jailcell, maybe around D.C. Yeah, 
just speculation, but it gives 9/11 a chance to happen before Hawkeye is 
shipped off to Seagate.

> And it also explains why Hawkeye isn't with the T-Bolts at Ground Zero in 
ASM#36: he's seperated from them after the main story of T-Bolts 50.

Why CREATE a situation where Hawkeye is released from prison, when you could 
slip his appearance into a gap where he WASN'T IN prison?  I mean, if we're 
talking about the difference between placing him between TB #49-50 versus 
between pages of #50, why make the extra trouble?  How would it HELP to assume 
that 9/11 occured when Hawkeye was in jail?

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: 9-11 Fever!
Posted by Kevin  on September 13, 2002 at 09:03:33:
In Reply to: Re: 9-11 Fever!
posted by Jeph! on September 12, 2002 at 16:05:44:

> > Hmmm.  Is there a chance that Magneto's injuries can be placed after 
9/11?

> They ARE after 9/11 -- the way *I've* placed it.  What you mean is, can 
Magneto's injuries be placed after "Ultron Imperative", so you can place 
9/11 after it as well?

> The answer is -- Magneto's injuries occur in an arc that begins in X #111.  
Due to Quicksilver's cross-appearances, X #111 has to occur just before A3 
#38.  And "Ultron Imperative", because of in-book references, has to occur 
after A3 #44.

> So ... no.  Even if X #111-113 take place over two weeks, 
and A3 #38-44 take place over two days, Magneto's declaration of WAR against 
the USA was in #111 -- before A3 #38 -- and he wouldn't be welcome in the 
States after that point, even if it WAS before his injuries.  Besides, 
he'd be busily thumping the war drum -- why would he make another trip to 
the USA just to help sift wreckage?

> So ... no.

This is a good explanation. Therefore, I'm satisfied. Thanks!

> Why CREATE a situation where Hawkeye is released from prison, when you 
could slip his appearance into a gap where he WASN'T IN prison?  I mean, if 
we're talking about the difference between placing him between TB #49-50 
versus between pages of #50, why make the extra trouble?  How would it HELP 
to assume that 9/11 occured when Hawkeye was in jail?

Well, I was simply trying to come up with a rationale why the T-Bolts weren't 
there at Ground Zero, (again).  Yes, we could assume they were, and we didn't 
see them, that's all, but still...when faced with discrepancies, (god, I think 
I spelled that wrong) I think we should try to come up with the most plausible 
explanation.  

Is there any other issues AFTER Maximum Security but BEFORE the main story of 
T-Bolts #50 that one could squeeze 9/11 in?  Between T-Bolt's 47 and 48 maybe? 
No, I believe they had just returned to Earth from Titan at that point...

Oh well, just trying to help.

			*	*	*

Re: 9-11 Fever!
Posted by Jeph! on September 13, 2002 at 09:41:41:
In Reply to: Re: 9-11 Fever!
posted by Kevin  on September 13, 2002 at 09:03:33:

> Well, I was simply trying to come up with a rationale why the T-Bolts 
weren't there at Ground Zero, (again).  Yes, we could assume they were, and 
we didn't see them, that's all, but still...when faced with discrepancies, 
(god, I think I spelled that wrong) I think we should try to come up with 
the most plausible explanation.

See my previous reply to Paul's post for TWO plausible-sounding explanations!  
And more on the way if you don't like those two!

> Is there any other issues AFTER Maximum Security but BEFORE the main story 
of T-Bolts #50 that one could squeeze 9/11 in?  Between T-Bolt's 47 and 48 
maybe?  No, I believe they had just returned to Earth from Titan at that 
point...

I recently re-read #47-50, LOOKING for gaps -- and sadly, between #49-50 was 
the only one I could find.  Right after the T-Bolts' return, they pretty 
much spend every minute chasing after Scourge, which takes them all the way 
through the end of #49.

> Oh well, just trying to help.

Me too ... me too...

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: 9-11 Fever!
Posted by Kevin  on September 13, 2002 at 12:27:41:
In Reply to: Re: 9-11 Fever!
posted by Jeph! on September 13, 2002 at 09:41:41:

> > Well, I was simply trying to come up with a rationale why the T-Bolts 
weren't there at Ground Zero, (again).  Yes, we could assume they were, and 
we didn't see them, that's all, but still...when faced with discrepancies, 
(god, I think I spelled that wrong) I think we should try to come up with 
the most plausible explanation.

> See my previous reply to Paul's post for TWO plausible-sounding 
explanations!  And more on the way if you don't like those two!

The two offered were perfectly fine, IF....we go by the assumption that 
Hawkeye and Nomad were of the opinion that Gyrich wasn't quite ready to 
unleash his nanoprobes all over the world.  The T-Bolts knew the threat was 
urgent, thus not too much time can pass...but still, with 9/11 happening, I 
believe even Gyrich would halt his mad ambitions for a few days....so what 
the heck, it's plausible. :)

> > Is there any other issues AFTER Maximum Security but BEFORE the main 
story of T-Bolts #50 that one could squeeze 9/11 in?  Between T-Bolt's 47 
and 48 maybe?  No, I believe they had just returned to Earth from Titan at 
that point...

> I recently re-read #47-50, LOOKING for gaps -- and sadly, between #49-50 
was the only one I could find.  Right after the T-Bolts' return, they pretty 
much spend every minute chasing after Scourge, which takes them all the way 
through the end of #49.

> > Oh well, just trying to help.

> Me too ... me too...

And your help is appreciated.  If Paul buys this can we just settle this 
debate then?  I'd like to feel that we came to a consensus on this debate 
before the end of times.  (until the next 9/11 MU story blows this calender 
out of the water). :)

			*	*	*

Re: 9-11 Fever!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 13, 2002 at 07:15:36:
In Reply to: Re: 9-11 Fever!
posted by Jeph! on September 11, 2002 at 22:45:07:

> Yep -- but, letting him out TOO many times strains credibility.  I'm still 
of the mind that there's a nice slim gap between TB #49-50, and Hawk ran up 
to NYC to check in with the Avengers, "as is inactive-Avenger policy during 
home-soil disaster conditions" (eh, eh?).

I'll consider this possibility.  Hawkeye's in the middle of a mission with 
the 'Bolts and Nomad, then he gets word of the WTC disaster, tells his 
colleagues to sit tight because he (and he alone) is needed in NYC.  Um, can 
we make this more believable?  I figure it would be "all hands on deck" for 
this disaster.

> > It's just that I'd rather have a topical reference made once, not over 
and over and over.

> I understand.  Really I do.  But, well ... ::points at Cyclops::

> Is there no way you can simply condense the July-August of your current 
calendar into July, and push Maximum Security backwards to Sept. 4-8?  That 
would solve it all, right there.

I'm considering that.  Of course, there are a number of other factors to 
consider here.  And of course X:SC would need to happen between Maximum 
Security and 9-11.

> > > Anyone: find me another instance of a real-world event that was 
incorporated into the MU at the time, but nowadays must be ruled topical -- or 
at least, the date it occured on must now be ruled topical.

> > Nope, sorry.  Let's say Marvel shows the first "real" lunar landing.  
That doesn't mean it had to happen on July 20 in the MU anymore than it had 
to happen in 1969.  HOWEVER, if MU characters kept referring to "July 20" 
then I'd be concerned.

> Well, that's what I meant -- if anywhere in the MU they assigned a specific 
date to a specific "real" event.  I'd be curious if your calendar was able to 
accomodate it happening on that date -- and if not, what you did about it.

We'll there's the presidential election involving Al Gore that's in the 
current calendar...

> > And, yes, some of them will end up being TOPICAL because calendar 
placement is trumped by other, more important considerations.

> Like a Cyclops appearance?  ;)

You betcha.

> > I see some merit in ... the attempt to minimize topical references as 
much as we can.

> I agree.  Keep on truckin', and I'll be here to catch you when you admit 
defeat.  ;)

> (Kidding!  Honestly -- more power to you, but *I've* given up.)

I'm a masochist.

> Hey, if you push back MaxSec to Sept., can you push the USAgent series 
into November?

That would be possible.  Again, I'd have to look at the big picture.  Of 
course Def2 1 and 2 would need to be moved before November.

> > Does that mean we have to like it?  Stinkin' retcons.  Let's alter 
established MU canon for the sake of making the stories "more accessible" by 
dragging out real-world topical references.  Grrr.

> I don't see how the publication of ASM2 #36 was a "retcon" of anything ... 
yes, it's a conflicting appearance of some folks but I don't see how it 
"undid" anything we thought we knew about the MU.  From Stan Lee to Joe 
Quesada, Marvel folks ahve always taken pride that, unlike DC's Metropolis 
or Gotham, Marvel's stories have more or less taken place in the real world 
right outside your door.  I don't fault them for dealing with 9/11, and I 
sure as hell wouldn't call it a "retcon" to have done so.

I wasn't referring to ASM2 36 as an example of a retcon.  I was thinking 
more along the lines of Ben Grimm in WWII, no wait, Vietnam.  ASM2 36 is 
still canon as far as I'm concerned (Doom's tears be damned).

--Paul

			*	*	*

T-Bolts Fever!
Posted by Jeph! on September 13, 2002 at 09:37:35:
In Reply to: Re: 9-11 Fever!
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 13, 2002 at 07:15:36:

>> I'm still of the mind that there's a nice slim gap between TB #49-50, and 
Hawk ran up to NYC to check in with the Avengers, "as is inactive-Avenger 
policy during home-soil disaster conditions" (eh, eh?).

> I'll consider this possibility.  Hawkeye's in the middle of a mission with 
the 'Bolts and Nomad, then he gets word of the WTC disaster, tells his 
colleagues to sit tight because he (and he alone) is needed in NYC.  Um, can 
we make this more believable?  I figure it would be "all hands on deck" for 
this disaster.

Well, first of all, they're not "in the middle of a mission" -- at the end 
of #49 they decide to break into the CSA, and in #50 they do it -- there's 
time there for them to sit down, debrief Nomad, make a plan, and travel from 
Colorado to Washington DC.

But -- okay, how's this explanation?  The T-Bolts have regrouped after the 
events of #47-49 and formed a plan to invade the CSA, in Washington DC.  They 
travel there, and get a cheap motel.  Then, they wake up one morning to find 
smoke pouring out of the Pentagon.  Hawkeye, turning on the tube, sees that 
more bad stuff is goin' down in NYC, the home base of the Avengers -- and he 
knows the "inactive Avenger" policy.

So, the T-Bolts help out at the Pentagon site and Hawkeye, the only one there 
bound by inactive-Avenger policy, takes a quick run to NYC to check in.

Or there's this explanation: the T-Bolts would love to go to NYC and help 
out, but Hawkeye has to physically restrain them -- they're wanted felons, 
after all, and the last time they were spotted in NYC they blew up Four 
Freedoms Plaza.  He's afraid that their presence will do more harm than 
good -- afraid they may actually be blamed for the tragedy -- so he orders 
them to stay, to look after Nomad, while he checks in with his old teammates.

Or, there's this one:  the T-Bolts WERE at Ground Zero, as was Hawkeye -- we 
just didn't see them.

Pick one and run with it.  I'll make more.  ;)

> > Is there no way you can simply condense the July-August of your current 
calendar into July, and push Maximum Security backwards to Sept. 4-8?  That 
would solve it all, right there.

> I'm considering that.  Of course, there are a number of other factors to 
consider here.  And of course X:SC would need to happen between Maximum 
Security and 9-11.

Yep -- but that's probably a two-day adventure.  I'd like to give it a week, 
though, just to get Cyclops back into any sort of frame of mind to help out.  
Well, whatever, two days will do as well as anything else.

Of course, there's those Heroes pin-ups ... eh, I'll get to them later.  
They're the LEAST of our problems.

>>>> Anyone: find me another instance of a real-world event that was 
incorporated into the MU at the time, but nowadays must be ruled topical -- or 
at least, the date it occured on must now be ruled topical.

> We'll there's the presidential election involving Al Gore that's in the 
current calendar...

Elaborate, please?  You mean the election where Senator Kelly is running?

(BTW, how far apart on your calendar is the Graydon Creed election and the 
Robert Kelly election?  One year or two?)

> > > And, yes, some of them will end up being TOPICAL because calendar 
placement is trumped by other, more important considerations.

>> Like a Cyclops appearance?  ;)

> You betcha.

Heh.

> > Hey, if you push back MaxSec to Sept., can you push the USAgent series 
into November?

> That would be possible.  Again, I'd have to look at the big picture.  Of 
course Def2 1 and 2 would need to be moved before November.

Eh -- give it a shot.  It looks on the surface like a good option.

> I wasn't referring to ASM2 36 as an example of a retcon.  I was thinking 
more along the lines of Ben Grimm in WWII, no wait, Vietnam.

I'm still trying to figure out in which War Tony Stark got hit with the 
shrapnel.  Was it even a "war" at this point, or just some jungel skirmish?

> ASM2 36 is still canon as far as I'm concerned (Doom's tears be damned).

Hurrah!  Let's keep on whackin' this square peg into the many many round 
holes we've got.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

DREADKNIGHT...DREAM QUEEN...DUM DUM DUGAN
Posted by Arthur Stein on September 08, 2002 at 23:01:35:

New entries marked **

DREADKNIGHT/BRAM VELSING

**IM 102-FB (origin)
IM 101
IM 102

DREAM QUEEN

**AF 67-FB
**AF 57
**AF 58
**AF 59
**AF 60
**AF 64
**AF 67
**AF 68
**AF 69
**AF 70
AF 109/2

DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS "DUM DUM"

CA 173
**CA 175
CA 181

			*	*	*

Re: DREADKNIGHT...DREAM QUEEN...DUM DUM DUGAN
Posted by Kevin  on September 09, 2002 at 09:27:31:
In Reply to: DREADKNIGHT...DREAM QUEEN...DUM DUM DUGAN
posted by Arthur Stein on September 08, 2002 at 23:01:35:

Just what are these types of posts that keep showing up?  Is this one of the 
"board members" going back and making corrections to characters? The way 
these go in alphabetical order, I suspect they've got a whole list to go 
through...CA 173..wasn't that published in the 70's?  Do we have someone 
here working on correctionst o 70's comics? 

			*	*	*

Re: DREADKNIGHT...DREAM QUEEN...DUM DUM DUGAN
Posted by Arthur Stein on September 09, 2002 at 10:24:07:
In Reply to: Re: DREADKNIGHT...DREAM QUEEN...DUM DUM DUGAN
posted by Kevin  on September 09, 2002 at 09:27:31:

No. Not a board member. Just an avid marvelist that was working on my own 
on something very similar to the MCP until 1995 (and all pre-computer paper 
notes). So now I am going through the MCP entries and checking if I have 
any notes showing other appearances. I must say its been a whale of a lot 
of fun (as well as a whole lot of 'work') to go back and validate my entries 
and then to find the most correct chronological point. Amazingly time-
consuming, but worth the effort I hope. 

			*	*	*

Re: DREADKNIGHT...DREAM QUEEN...DUM DUM DUGAN
Posted by Russ Chappell on September 09, 2002 at 12:30:55:
In Reply to: Re: DREADKNIGHT...DREAM QUEEN...DUM DUM DUGAN
posted by Arthur Stein on September 09, 2002 at 10:24:07:

> point. Amazingly time-consuming, but worth the effort I hope. 

Keep going, Arthur. You may want to add a standard explanation of what you're 
doing to the end of each of these, so newcomers can keep up.

			*	*	*

Appearances by Spider-Woman II post-Force Works
Posted by Matt on September 10, 2002 at 15:50:21:

Can anyone send me a list of appearances made by Spider-Woman II that took 
place between the last issue of Force Works and the first issue of Avengers 
vol. 3?

			*	*	*

Re: Appearances by Spider-Woman II post-Force Works
Posted by Sean Curtin on September 11, 2002 at 12:27:06:
In Reply to: Appearances by Spider-Woman II post-Force Works
posted by Matt on September 10, 2002 at 15:50:21:

The only one was the Sensational Spider-Man 1996 Annual.

--Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

earth x trilogy
Posted by andy hubert on September 11, 2002 at 22:24:41:

 I have been using this site as a way to delve deeper and supplement the 
reading of this trilogy. i have found it extremely helpful but there are 
a few obscure characters that popped up in universe x that i can't find 
on the mcp. Chronos (the eternal), starlord, Uranus (chronos' brother), 
prince wayfinder (said to have created the microverse and pictured with 
rocket racoon for some reason), jude the entropic man, and additional 
appearances of captain universe and actarus rann (their chronologies are 
incomplete). any appearances or chronologies for these characters would 
be greatly appreciated. thank you --andy

			*	*	*

Re: earth x trilogy
Posted by DCW3 on September 12, 2002 at 18:44:48:
In Reply to: earth x trilogy
posted by andy hubert on September 11, 2002 at 22:24:41:

Information on a few of these:

Chronos is listed under Kronos.

I would venture that Star-Lord isn't listed because it wasn't clear until 
recently whether he was a part of the Marvel Universe, and his adventures 
are now apparently considered to take place in an alternate future, which 
doesn't get covered in the MCP. There is an excellent bio and appearance 
list available at http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/starlor1.htm .

I can't find Jude either; he ought to be listed somewhere. He has a bio 
and appearance list at http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/judetem.htm .

As the listing for Captain Universe reads, it only covers the appearances 
of Steve Coffin as Captain Universe, since "Captain Universe" is actually 
a succession of characters. It (good a pronoun as any) starred in Marvel 
Spotlight vol. 2 #9-11. (Perhaps you meant that Steve Coffin's chronology 
is incomplete; I can't help you there.)

			*	*	*

Re: earth x trilogy
Posted by andy hubert on September 12, 2002 at 22:14:56:
In Reply to: Re: earth x trilogy
posted by DCW3 on September 12, 2002 at 18:44:48:

thank you very much for your reply. as to captain universe i just meant 
additional appearances for anyone who became captain universe. for instance 
i heard spider-man became captain universe at one point. thank you---andy

			*	*	*

Re: earth x trilogy
Posted by Peter Fabricius on September 13, 2002 at 12:20:43:
In Reply to: Re: earth x trilogy
posted by andy hubert on September 12, 2002 at 22:14:56:

Not a complete list, just what I had noted myself

Marvel Super Hero Contest of Champions 1,
Marvel Super Hero Contest of Champions 2(behind scenes),
Marvel Super Hero Contest of Champions 3,
Marvel Fanfare (1. series )25/2 (in body of Delayne Masters),
Web of Spider-Man Annual 5/2 (in body of Evan Swann),
the Spectacular Spider-man 158(in body of Spider-Man I),
Web of Spider-Man 59,
Amazing Spider-Man (1. series) 327,
the Spectacular Spider-Man 159,
Web of Spider-Man 60,
Amazing Spider-Man (1. series)328,
the Spectacular Spider-Man 160,
Web of Spider-Man 61,
Quasar 7,
Amazing Spider-Man (1. series)329,
Web of Spider-Man Annual 6/4(in body of Eddie), 
What If (2. series) 31(in body of a dog),
Guardians of the Galaxy 30(in body of LMatto),
Guardians of the Galaxy 31,
Guardians of the Galaxy 32,
Guardians of the Galaxy 33,
Marvel Comics Presents 148/2 (in body of Elijah Jackson)

			*	*	*

EARTH-LORD...EEL III...ELECTRO
Posted by Arthur Stein on September 12, 2002 at 16:53:05:

New entries marked **

EARTH-LORD/KYLE BROCK

**T 395
**T 396
**T 397
**T 398
**T 399
**T 400
T 426/2

EEL III

**NM@ 5
AWC@ 5/3

ELECTRO/MAX DILLON

PPTSS 39
** PPTSS 40
PPTSS 42

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my posting areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them. The aim to help in the completeness of 
this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

			*	*	*

Peggy Carter vs. Betty Ross
Posted by Tom Bradford on September 12, 2002 at 19:09:52:

I am curious as to how you guys have chosen to reconcile the character of 
Betty Ross (I) from Captain America Comics in the Golden Age.  Do you 
consider this to be a pseudonym for Peggy Carter or is she a different 
character entirely?  My instinct is that she is a different person altogether, 
though her first appearance in Captain America Comics #1, story 2, would be 
"cancelled out" by it's subsequent retelling in Tales of Suspense #64.  I 
attribute the "Agent 13" woman in that later story to being Peggy Carter, 
as she never gives her name and it would be an ideal place for her and Cap 
to have "met" (as they seem to have no other first meeting.)  Those are 
just my thoughts, though it would mean adding a new "first appearance" for 
Peggy Carter if you agree.

--Tom Bradford

			*	*	*

Re: Peggy Carter vs. Betty Ross
Posted by Spirit of 76 on September 13, 2002 at 17:39:44:
In Reply to: Peggy Carter vs. Betty Ross
posted by Tom Bradford on September 12, 2002 at 19:09:52:

This has been a topic of intense discussion in the past, especially on the 
Captain America message board.  

Personally, I don't subscribe to the Betty Ross=Peggy Carter theory.  In 
the Golden Age stories, Betty went on to become Golden Girl.  Golden Girl
(the original--not the second one) has been mentioned in two or three stories 
as being a part of Captain America's past (albeit the third Captain America)

Peggy Carter became an amnesiac and wandered Europe for a year or so, until 
being rescued and sent to an asylum, presumably for decades.

Really the big question should be...Is Agent X-13/Agent R of the origin 
story the same woman as Betty Ross/Agent 13 of the Sando and Omar stories?

I am still on the fence on this one.

For a "spirited" discussion on this topic, visit us on the Captain America 
Message Board or the Golden Age of Marvel Message Board.

Spirit of 76

			*	*	*

General Chronologizing
Posted by SKleefeld on September 13, 2002 at 14:18:09:

Hi, all --

It ocurred to me, after re-reading some of these posts, that there are 
people lurking here (or being directed here by Russ) that are going through 
our various threads trying to figure out HOW one actually goes about putting 
these books in order. It further ocurred to me that a majority of posts 
lately are relating back to this nasty Kang War debate we've been waging 
for the past TWO AND HALF MONTHS! (Geez, maybe we should just put this damn 
thing to a majority-rules vote and be done with it!)

And it it FURTHER ocurred to me that this might inadvertantly give a fairly 
negative spin on the whole idea of the MCP. Not that we haven't all been 
civil about the whole thing, but it's GOT to look daunting to want to help 
out, but see all the muck we're wading through.

So I wanted to take a moment to say that it's not normally this bad! 
Especially if you're only looking at one or two characters.

The problems we're having now stem from the fact we have several major 
crossover-type events going on more-or-less simultaneously: 9-11, the Kang 
War, Khan's invasion, the Order, Graviton's attack... 

This is more the exception than the norm. Most previous major crossovers 
were either under stricter editorial control ("Onslaught") or have little 
in the way of inter-book character crossovers ("Secret Wars II"). The major 
exception is perhaps "Inferno" which you will note is the big whole 
currently in Russ's MCP. (Hey, guys, wanna tackle that next?)

Most of the time, chronologizing books isn't nearly this tedious or 
difficult. And, for me at least, it's always fun regardless. 

Hopefully, though, you'll be able to sort through our posts and focus on 
the types of things we're using to make chronological placements. And 
hopefully, we'll be able to get some more folks with whom we can enjoy 
working on this project.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Disco Inferno
Posted by Jeph! on September 13, 2002 at 14:49:21:
In Reply to: General Chronologizing
posted by SKleefeld on September 13, 2002 at 14:18:09:

Good points, Sean.  Normally things go so smoothly and self-explanatorily 
around here that we rarely HAVE to debate what various people come up with.

> This is more the exception than the norm.  The major exception is perhaps 
"Inferno" which you will note is the big whole currently in Russ's MCP. (Hey, 
guys, wanna tackle that next?)

Absolutely!

(Wait ... I only have the X-books portion of Inferno.  Could I actually BE 
of any help?  You're talking about plugging in all the other titles' 
crossovers, right?)

> And hopefully, we'll be able to get some more folks with whom we can enjoy 
working on this project.

Yeah -- come on in, folks!  It's hip to chronologize!  Don't mind the small 
group of strange men that have been standing in the corner arguing 
passionately for two months...

Good sentiments, Sean.  And I'm all over that Inferno puppy -- just say the 
word.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

You want Inferno?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 13, 2002 at 21:55:43:
In Reply to: Disco Inferno
posted by Jeph! on September 13, 2002 at 14:49:21:

I'm not sure if I should do this, but...

I have some RAW notes (complete with calendar notes and character lists that 
I haven't had a chance to re-examine in years) about nearly all the Inferno 
comics.  If you're willing to accept this as a jump-start toward your own 
work on this, I'm willing to share it.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: You want Inferno?
Posted by Jeph! on September 13, 2002 at 22:14:27:
In Reply to: You want Inferno?
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 13, 2002 at 21:55:43:

Errrr.

Let's finish what's on our plate first, before we go on to dessert.  I think 
what we've got to resolve is still quite a lot.

But -- eventually -- yeah, I'd love to take a look at those things.  Please.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: You want Inferno?
Posted by SKleefeld on September 13, 2002 at 22:33:57:
In Reply to: You want Inferno?
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 13, 2002 at 21:55:43:

> I'm not sure if I should do this, but...

> I have some RAW notes (complete with calendar notes and character lists 
that I haven't had a chance to re-examine in years) about nearly all the 
Inferno comics.  If you're willing to accept this as a jump-start toward 
your own work on this, I'm willing to share it.

I believe the appropriate phrase, Paul, is "You da MAN!" I'd definitely like 
to see that, especially since my collection from back then is decidedly 
spotty.

But I would like to repeat my original question, with a slight change in 
emphasis: "Hey, guys, wanna tackle that NEXT?" 

As in, you know, after we get this first mess straightened up.  Let's not 
give ourselves too many simultaneous headaches, eh?  :)

But definitely an excellent way to start a new adventure, Paul!

-- Sean

			*	*	*

X-Men Unlimited #38: "Yahrtzeit"
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 13, 2002 at 22:18:56:

This weeks XU 38 is an example in which a temporal reference is hard to 
ignore.  The entire story is based on the observance of the first anniversary 
of Peter Rasputins death.

Kitty dwells on the fact that it is a year to the day from when he drew his 
last breath, and Nightcrawler notes that its been a year.

More importantly, Kitty makes references to Yahrtzeit, which is the storys 
title, and she lights a memorial candle to mark the first year, a step of 
grief she cites in Judaism.  Here is some information about what Yahrtzeit 
means...

The Yahrtzeit is observed annually on the Jewish date of death. When death 
occurs after sunset, it is the following day that is used to calculate the 
Yahrtzeit. When three or more days have elapsed from the day of death until 
the interment, the first Yahrzeit is observed on the anniversary of the 
interment. On all subsequent years it is observed on the anniversary of the 
death. The Yahrtzeit begins at sunset on the preceeeding day and is concluded 
at sunset of the day of death. During the observance of the Yahrtzeit, a 
memorial Yahrtzeit candle is kept burning and the Mourner's Kaddish is 
recited during services in the Synagogue.

(http://www.yahrtzeit.com/?o=Upper%20Valley%20Jewish%20Community)

Given the central role of the anniversary here, Id take it as given until 
compelling evidence argues against it.

Already we have temporal references that contradict the one-year-after 
placement.  As weve seen, UX 409 (in which Peter dies) occurs after the 
Christmas story in X2 109.  Yet in XU 38 we see falling leaves, suggesting 
autumn.  Also, college is in session, so XU 38 is not during the holiday 
break.  So which has greater weight  Yahrtzeit or fall classes?

Answer: too early to tell.  Im waiting for future comics featuring Kitty 
to make it impossible for her to be in the situation of XU 38 at the real 
MU anniversary of UX 409.  (You know it will happen...)  Until then Im 
tentaively placing UX 38 a year after UX 390, but it's really a state of 
calendar limbo at this point.

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men Unlimited #38: "Yahrtzeit"
Posted by Jeph! on September 13, 2002 at 22:47:53:
In Reply to: X-Men Unlimited #38: "Yahrtzeit"
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 13, 2002 at 22:18:56:

> This weeks XU 38 is an example in which a temporal reference is hard to 
ignore.  The entire story is based on the observance of the first anniversary 
of Peter Rasputins death.

Yep -- agreed.  Given the serious tone of the issue, placing it anywhere else 
would be a disservice.

> Already we have temporal references that contradict the one-year-after 
placement.  As weve seen, UX 409 (in which Peter dies) occurs after the 
Christmas story in X2 109.  Yet in XU 38 we see falling leaves, suggesting 
autumn.  Also, college is in session, so XU 38 is not during the holiday 
break.  So which has greater weight  Yahrtzeit or fall classes?

Eh -- I'm tempted to say that these are SPRING classes -- as you say, Peter 
died AFTER Christmas, so it could be January 3rd or so, possibly juuust into 
the first week of the spring semester -- and tack the falling leaves up to 
lousy Chicago weather.

> Answer: too early to tell.  Im waiting for future comics featuring Kitty 
to make it impossible for her to be in the situation of XU 38 at the real 
MU anniversary of UX 409.

I'm not sure I understand where UX #409 figures into this-all.  Explain?

> Until then Im tentaively placing UX 38 a year after UX 390, but it's 
really a state of calendar limbo at this point.

Yep -- much like "Soldier X".

I'm awaiting Kitty's upcoming "MekaniX" series -- which, as far as I know, is 
her only slated X-book appearances in the forseeable future.  Basically, we 
have to wait another year or two ourselves, to see what else Marvel publishes 
with Kitty and/or Kurt in it.

But, yeah -- let's keep this one in limbo for a while.  XU #37 was published 
way out-of-sequence -- I don't see why #38 couldn't be that way as well.

X-Men Unlimited, happily, is one of those books where the issues don't always 
have to take place one-after-the-next.

Shalom.
    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Iron Man #46-48 -- let's solve this thing.  (ATTN Kang War team!)
Posted by Jeph! on September 14, 2002 at 13:22:22:

As we seem to be slowly lurching towards some sort of consensus on various 
things, here, I wanted to dredge up and decide, once and for all, how to 
deal with the problems we face in Iron Man v3 #46.

Everyone who;s been following the spirited Kang war debate knows the problem: 
the IM arc, 46-48, is a sequel to "Ultron Imperative", and Hank Pym had 
become Yellowjacket by A:UI.  Yet there he is in #46, as Goliath.

Sean is very keen on keeping Hank's costume chronology straight, and he has 
a very good point: Hank Pym's costumes are generally tied to his sanity 
level, and once he takes on a persona he does NOT relinquish it easily.  "In 
the wash" isn't good enough for Hank Pym.

Paul, on the other hand, is very keen about treating it like the mistake it 
is, and placing the whole arc as a sequel, following Tom Brevoort's suggestions 
and intent.  Paul raises the point that, as long as we keep it before A3 #45, 
where Hank is actually TALKING about his decision to stay YJ, we could 
conceivably say that he's doing a bit of waffling in IM3 #46  he hasn't 
fully committed himself yet.

Now, I'm with Sean on this  I believe that if we CAN bend it around A:UI, 
to accomodate Hank's costume, we should  the question is, CAN we?

There is a gap between pp.15-16 of IM3 #46  in the first part of the issue, 
Goliath wanders through and IM captures a rampaging Sun-Tao; and in the 
second part the Cult of Yinsen shows up to claim him.  The action of #47-48 
is continuous with only the second half of #46  THIS is all that needs to 
be after A:UI.

If we want to stick A:UI in-between pp.15-16 of IM3 #46, then by necessity 
of IM's armor-changes we must also stick in CA3 #45-48 -- Iron Man reverts 
from his ugly armor to his classic armor in A:UI, shows up in classic in Cap 
#45, and reverts back to ugly in Cap #46.  The total running time of the 
adventures, A:UI and Cap #45-48, is approximately 8-9 days.

I really don't see a problem with keeping Sun-Tao on ice for nine days  
especially considering that refusing to do so means that we're adhering to 
Sun-Tao's chronology at the cost of Hank Pym's.  Remember what I said about 
the main characters being the most important.  The MCP will still list Sun-
Tao's appearances in order despite a nine-day gap being created.  And keeping 
a dangerous villain on ice for a week or so is not without precedent  the 
X-Men kept Juggernaut that way for quite some time following UX #322, for 
example.

One could very easily say that it took Tony Stark's computers nine days to 
crack the encryption codes on Sun-Tao's armor, to get it open without blowing 
it up.  (Remember, Jocasta's scared to death of anything that even LOOKS like 
the sentient armor, so she wouldn't have helped  meaning the rest of Tony's 
computers would have that much harder a task ahead of them.)

So: given that, it IS POSSIBLE to put A:UI into the gap in IM3 #46.  Now, 
that leaves only one hurdle: Ultron.  And that's why I'm writing this  I 
feel that we should examine Ultron's story closely, and use IT as our 
deciding factor on how to deal with the Goliath problem.

I don't actually own the issues.  None of them  I have recently read A:UI 
and IM3 #46, but that's it  I haven't read #47 or #48 at all.  Now, I have 
been told that Ultron's story, as revealed in #48, is as follows:

After the events of A:UI, when the little robot Antigone ran off with his 
head, he eventually convinced her to take it SOMEWHERE, where he hooked 
himself into the remains of the sentient armor.  Then he pretended that he 
was Professor Yinsen (whose brain had, I guess, been put into the armor as 
well), and formed the Cult of Yinsen.

Now, the Sons of Yinsen have been running around since before IM3 #37 (one 
of the only issues I have).  And we know from IM's many armor changes that 
#37 simply HAS to take place before A:UI.  So, we already know that the Sons 
of Yinsen, in some form, were already a group before Ultron's resurrection 
in A:UI.  So Ultron must have simply commandeered the group, not founded 
it.  (And if he DID claim to found it, then he must surely have been working 
BTS in a different body than the one he's resurrected in in A:UI.)

So what we need to figure out is, when in the group's history did Ultron 
come aboard?  What EXACTLY does the FB-explanation in #48 say?

Also, a letters page in IM3 #33 says to check out IM@2000 for a clue as to 
which mystery villain is using the dead sentient armor.  Could someone with 
that issue follow up on that?  The 2000 annual takes place before #33, and 
if we find a BTS appearance of Ultron in the annual, then we have more 
evidence that he's actually working BTS *prior* to his resurrection in 
A:UI.

So  we need to check out IM3 #48 for info on EXACTLY how and when Ultron 
claims to have used the Sons of Yinsen.  Sean, I believe you have #48  could 
you post Ultron's dialogue on here, verbatim?  I want to pick it apart the 
same way we picked apart Wanda's in A3 #45.

And could someone check the 2000 annual?  Given that Ultron was eventually 
revealed to be the "author" of its sentience, any appearance by ANY shadowy 
villain in that story can now be seen as Ultron...

And could someone with the Sons of Yinsen issues check them to see what's 
going on?  When exactly did they put Yinsen's brain into the sentient armor?  
I believe the Iron Man Wizard 1/2 issue has some details as well.  Anyone 
have that?

Once we figure out exactly what Ultron claims to have done, THEN I'll float 
the theory that he left his personality backed-up in the sentient armor all 
this time  molding the Sons of Yinsen while walking the armor around, 
awaiting the resurrection of the "rest" of him in A:UI.

Let's solve this thing once and for all  I'm sick of trying to find 
loopholes in the story without having all the facts.

Thanks, folks.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Iron Man #46-48 -- let's solve this thing.  (ATTN Kang War team!)
Posted by SKleefeld on September 14, 2002 at 23:16:28:
In Reply to: Iron Man #46-48 -- let's solve this thing.  (ATTN Kang War team!)
posted by Jeph! on September 14, 2002 at 13:22:22:

> So what we need to figure out is, when in the group's history did Ultron 
come aboard?  What EXACTLY does the FB-explanation in #48 say?

OK, here's the flashback, with the actual emphases given in the comic...

	Ultron (to Stark): "As you and your infernal *teammates* discovered 
	in our *last* encounter, all my *creations* are programmed with a 
	subconscious desire to *rebuild* me -- an *Ultron Imperative*, if you 
	will. And Jocasta, as you well know, is *my* creation. When you 
	foolishly *downloaded* her into your armor's systems, Jocasta -- 
	*unbeknownst* to even herself -- began to *prep* your armor as a 
	*vessel* for my return! Your theory that *lightning* was the cause 
	of the armor's *self-awareness* was quite *erroneous* -- although 
	I must admit, it did accelerate the process faster than I would 
	have *liked.*

	Stark (thought): Damn -- it makes *sense.*

	Ultron: As a result of this *premature sentience,* the armor 
	exhibited the *flawed* thinking of a previous Ultron -- the *Mark 
	12,* an Ultron that unbelievably showed *affection* for its creator, 
	*Hank Pym...* much as the armor did you *you* -- even going so far 
	as to *sacrifice* itself to save your *life.* The armor was 
	subsequently *deactivated*, and all would have been *lost* save for 
	an unforseen *player* in the game -- the Sons of Yinsen. When they 
	*reactivated* the armor in their ridiculous efforts to resurrect 
	their *mentor,* it was *child's play* to establish contact -- and 
	ensconce *myself* within my newfound *host.*

I might add that the last panel of this flashback shows the blue-green 
child-thing holding Ultron's head, as the Sons of Yinsen descend on it 
wearing old IM armors.

> Also, a letters page in IM3 #33 says to check out IM@2000 for a clue as 
to which mystery villain is using the dead sentient armor.  Could someone 
with that issue follow up on that?  The 2000 annual takes place before #33, 
and if we find a BTS appearance of Ultron in the annual, then we have more 
evidence that he's actually working BTS *prior* to his resurrection in 
A:UI.

The only thing I'm seeing there is the epilogue. It has the Sons of Yinsen 
talking about the Master rising again as their floating city hovers over the 
"grave" of the sentient armor.

> So  we need to check out IM3 #48 for info on EXACTLY how and when Ultron 
claims to have used the Sons of Yinsen.  Sean, I believe you have #48  could 
you post Ultron's dialogue on here, verbatim?  I want to pick it apart the 
same way we picked apart Wanda's in A3 #45.

See above. I read that as Ultron joining the Sons of Yinsen almost immediately 
after Ultron Imperative.

> And could someone check the 2000 annual?  Given that Ultron was eventually 
revealed to be the "author" of its sentience, any appearance by ANY shadowy 
villain in that story can now be seen as Ultron...

The only shadowy villain in the 2000 Annual is called "Dr. Midas" with a 
footnote (hey, remember those?) to check out Marvel Boy #1. I could only 
stomach the first issue or two of that series, but I believe Dr. Midas was 
an alternate reality Tony Stark or some such.

> And could someone with the Sons of Yinsen issues check them to see what's 
going on?  When exactly did they put Yinsen's brain into the sentient armor?  
I believe the Iron Man Wizard 1/2 issue has some details as well.  Anyone 
have that?

Don't have the 1/2 issue. Can't help there.

> Once we figure out exactly what Ultron claims to have done, THEN I'll 
float the theory that he left his personality backed-up in the sentient 
armor all this time  molding the Sons of Yinsen while walking the armor 
around, awaiting the resurrection of the "rest" of him in A:UI.

According to the IMPLICATION of the IM #48 flashback, Ultron didn't begin 
working with the Sons of Yinsen until after the conclusion of A:UI -- after 
Hank decided to become Yellowjacket. That would mean that the SoY had already 
decided to go public and start acting all evil without Ultron's help. 

Yeah, I know. Not likely.

But remember that IMPLICATIONS can't be followed for chronological placement. 
The only definitive placement we can give for Ultron's involvement with SoY 
is sometime after Iron Man Annual 2000 -- when the Sons reactivated the 
sentient armor. 

So my suggestion for the order of the books in questions is...

IM@ 2000
IM 46 pp 1-15
A:UI
IM 48 (FB)
CA 45-48 (FB)
CA 45-48
IM 46 pp 16+
IM 47-48

Yes, I've still placed the IM #48 flashback AFTER A:UI because the image 
itself shows a post-A:UI scene. The SoY needed to stop by to pick Antigone 
at some point, and the fact that "she" had Ultron's head was immaterial. 
Ultron had already infiltrated the SoY, explaining why they came to pick 
"her" up. 

Remember, again, that Ultron is a powerful computer, completely capable of 
multi-tasking. He even says outright on several ocassions throughout the 
story that he always has contigency plans. There's no reason he couldn't 
have been working with the Sons of Yinsen while trying to take out his 
extended family.

- Sean

			*	*	*

By God, it works!
Posted by Jeph! on September 15, 2002 at 00:17:41:
In Reply to: Re: Iron Man #46-48 -- let's solve this thing.  (ATTN Kang War 
team!)
posted by SKleefeld on September 14, 2002 at 23:16:28:

Sean, Sean, Sean.  This could actually work.

>> What EXACTLY does the FB-explanation in #48 say?

> OK, here's the flashback, with the actual emphases given in the comic...

> Ultron (to Stark): "As you and your infernal teammates discovered in our 
last encounter, all my creations are programmed with a subconscious desire 
to rebuild me -- an Ultron Imperative, if you will. And Jocasta, as you well 
know, is my creation. When you foolishly downloaded her into your armor's 
systems, Jocasta -- unbeknownst to even herself -- began to prep your armor 
as a vessel for my return!   The armor was subsequently deactivated, and 
all would have been lost save for an unforseen player in the game -- the 
Sons of Yinsen. When they reactivated the armor in their ridiculous efforts 
to resurrect their mentor, it was child's play to establish contact -- and 
ensconce myself within my newfound host.

> I read that as Ultron joining the Sons of Yinsen almost immediately after 
Ultron Imperative. 

See, now, I read that as "the instant the armor was reactivated, Ultron took 
it over."  Do we know when the armor was activated?  Did it happen on-panel?

Have the Sons of Yinsen appeared anywhere between IM3@2000 and #46?  If so, 
what was the status of the sentient armor then?

My thinking is, if we can show that the armor was reactivated prior to A:UI 
(and to do that it'd have to be prior to IM3 #44, because the only thing 
linking A:UI to IM3 is armor consistency), we can add strength to the notion 
that, essentially, Ultron is in two places at once.

Either way, think on this:  if Ultron has programmed EVERY robot he's built 
to rebuid him, there's bound to be some overlap in recreation  I mean, 
Jocasta was working on it prior to IM3 #26, and Alkhema was working on it 
from A3 #22-44.  Given this, is it much of a leap to assume that two Ultrons 
got recreated?  One, the product of Jocasta, who came back in full the minute 
the sentient armor came back online  and one, the product of Alkhema, who 
came back in A:UI?

In that case, the Ultron in the sentient armor could conceivably have existed 
since just after IM3@2000, and Alkhema would STILL be subconsciously laboring 
to recreate Ultron.

Heck, the way Ultron is describing the sentient armor, he was almost an 
Ultron already  his sentience was based on that of a Mark 12 Ultron.  I 
wonder what was keeping the armor from actually BEING a Mark 12 Ultron?  I 
mean, Jocasta was essentially terraforming the armor into a new Ultron, 
right?  So what was the difference -- was it the lightning?

Could the lightning have caused a fault, giving it sentience WITHOUT the 
consciousness and memories of M12-Ultron ?  The lightning interrupted the 
process that would have turned the armor fully into Ultron  and when the 
Sons of Yinsen turned the armor back on, the process completed itself, 
recreating a complete Mark 12 Ultron.

So, essentially, the seed of Ultron's resurrection was planted the instant 
Jocasta was loaded into the armor  and Alkhema's machinations had NOTHING 
TO DO with it.  She was working on a second, entirely different resurrection.

>I might add that the last panel of this flashback shows the blue-green 
child-thing holding Ultron's head, as the Sons of Yinsen descend on it 
wearing old IM armors. 

Yep  and this, then, would be how the two Ultrons reconciled their 
differences  by combining.  Jocasta's Mark 12 Ultron, who had been 
manipulating the Sons, sent them to seek out the disembodied head of 
Alkhema's Mark 13, and combined with it.

(Remember, Mark 12 Ultron is still EVIL  it would still be capable of 
manipulating the Sons  its only flaw is being nice to its creator.)

> According to the IMPLICATION of the IM #48 flashback, Ultron didn't begin 
working with the Sons of Yinsen until after the conclusion of A:UI  But 
remember that IMPLICATIONS can't be followed for chronological placement. 

My favorite kind of logic.  If we didn't see it, it isn't necessarily true.  
And, you know, it isn't really even that much of an implication  the only 
implicating element is the PICTURE!  Ultron doesn't say anything like "after 
you Avengers kicked my ass in Egypt, I sent a signal to the armor"  and the 
fact that he DIDN'T is all-important.

> The only definitive placement we can give for Ultron's involvement with 
SoY is sometime after Iron Man Annual 2000 -- when the Sons reactivated the 
sentient armor. 

Yep.  And, given that Jocasta was MAKING the armor INTO AN ULTRON, it stands 
to reason that EVEN IF "A:UI" HADN'T OCCURED and Alkhema hadnt rebuilt 
Ultron, he would have come back to life through the armor ANYWAY.

> So my suggestion for the order of the books in questions is...

> IM@ 2000
> IM 46 pp 1-15
> A:UI
> IM 48 (FB)
> CA 45-48 (FB)
> CA 45-48
> IM 46 pp 16+
> IM 47-48

This has been our suggestion from the get-go  but it's great to see that 
there's nothing solid, no in-book evidence, standing in our way.  Really, 
there's only the flimsiest of inferences.

> There's no reason he couldn't have been working with the Sons of Yinsen 
while trying to take out his extended family. 

And now we've PROVEN that there's no solid reason he couldn't have been.

Now, all we have to do is convince Paul.  Paul, your thoughts?  Any solid 
counter-arguments that this COULDN'T be?

    -Jeph!
and now, off to a well-deserved sleep.

			*	*	*

Calling Tom Brevoort...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 15, 2002 at 21:44:08:
In Reply to: By God, it works! 
posted by Jeph! on September 15, 2002 at 00:17:41:

Kudos to Sean.  I had my doubts about this plot construction when you guys 
first proposed it, but, given all the clues recapped by Sean, it makes 
perfect sense to me.

Now, if only the plot were actually WRITTEN that way.  The flashback in IM3 
48 suggests that the Ultron head found by Antigone at the end of A:UI 
remotely took control of the sentient armor and commanded the Sons of Yinsen 
to download the contents of the head into the armor -- that the sentient 
armor wasn't truly Ultron until the downloading occurred.  This implies that 
the sentient armor was not an Ultron incarnation during the first sixteen 
pages of IM3 46.

I do like Sean's plot construct, however.  But as we aren't Marvel writers, 
I'd like to get some blessing on this from someone who had a hand in both 
A:UI and IM3 48.  Tom Brevoort, what do you say?  Is Sean's plot construct 
worthy to stand as a canonical explanation for Hank Pym's history of attire?

Paul

(P.S.: Assuming we use Sean's theory, how do we track these different Ultron 
incarnations on the MCP?)

			*	*	*

Questions (and Answers?) about Ultron
Posted by Jeph! on September 17, 2002 at 14:24:30:
In Reply to: Calling Tom Brevoort...
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 15, 2002 at 21:44:08:

I've been doing some thinking about Ultron in this whole IM/A:UI mess -- 
trying to streamline our proposal with as few "fan-fic" implants as we can.

I don't know very much about Ultron, but I'm curious about some things: 
namely, how on earth does this whole "Ultron Imperative" thing work?

I get that he has preprogrammed his every creation to rebuild him.  What I 
don't get is how that's fully possible.  I mean, yes, they could build a 
robot body to Ultron's specs, but how would they recreate his MIND?

His resurrection in A:UI, for example.  He was rebuilt, subconsciously, by 
Alkhame, correct?  Now, he built Alkhema way the heck back in "West Coast 
Avengers" -- if THAT was when the Imperative was programmed into her, then 
Alkhema would rebuild the Ultron of that day and age.

Even if Ultron backed up his entire memory set into Alkhema, she would only 
be capable of building an Ultron with memories UP TO THAT POINT.

And yet, the Ultron rebuilt in A:UI seems to have ALL his memories -- right 
up to the moment of his defeat and destruction in A3 #22.

This confuses me.  How can this be?

Unless Ultron has some OTHER way of safeguarding his consciousness.  The 
Imperative merely causes his creations to build BODIES for him, which he 
then somehow beams his complete, up-to-date consciousness INTO.

Does that make any sense?  Is there another explanation for Ultron's 
continuing COMPLETENESS of memory?  Every time we see him, he remembers 
everything about the last time he was utterly destroyed -- how can this be, 
unless he's continuously beaming and backing-up his memories into a remote 
location?

Now, the reason I ask this is this:

In the IM3 #48 flashbacjk, Ultron claims that as soon as the armor was 
re-started, Ultron "made contact" and took it over.  This phrase, "made 
contact" got me thinking -- yes, it was IMPLIED to mean that his severed 
head (from A:UI) "made contact" with the armor remotely ... but as Sean 
and I like to maintain, implications only work when there's only one possible 
solution.  If I can offer a viable alternative to what Ultron meant by "made 
contact", then the implication means nothing.

Also, the IM3 #48 FB as written, gives me problems.  Am I to believe that 
Ultron's severed head was unable to radio-control the little green robot -- 
but was able to remotely control the sentient armor?  (Which, assuming that 
it was still sentient, would have been about the same level of difficulty as 
the little robot to control).

Then, I'm to beleieve that once Ultron had remote control of the armor, he 
commanded the armor to command the Sons of Yinsen to come get him, as 
depicted?  This I don't get -- it would make much more sense, and it would 
skip a step, to simply command the ARMOR to come get him.  (Besides, overtly 
involving the Sons like that would surely cause some of them to be suspicious 
about Ultron's involvement.)

Yes, I'm using Frank Tieri's bad writing to debunk the implications of the 
flashback.

In any case -- if we can assume that the reason that Ultron always has his 
full memories is because he backs up his consciousness in a remote location 
(perhaps a satellite), then we can assume that the dialogue in IM3 #48-FB, 
where Ultron claims to have "made contact" with the sentient armor, does NOT 
have to refer to his severed head making contact.  It could simply refer to 
his backed-up consciousness detecting an available host body and downloading 
in, the minute the armor was reactivated.

(Which sounds to me like a very likely method for the Ultron Imperative to 
work, given that at any moment there are likely several Ultron creations 
subconsciously creating host-bodies for him -- his remote source is probably 
prepped to download him into the first available body.)

Something else we should be thinking about, given the Sons of Yinsen's 
zealotry -- they recovered the sentient armor in IM3@2000, which took place 
between #32 and 33.  Are we really supposed to assume that they waited until 
just before #46 to resurrect their beloved mentor?

In all likelihood, they stuck Yinsen's brain into that armor and turned it 
on the first chance they got.

Now, if we believe that it WAS the Ultron from A:UI who inhabited the armor, 
posing as Yinsen, then we have to assume that from IM3 #33-44, the Sons 
basically had a failure on their hands -- a sentient armor, at the very 
least, but no sign of Yinsen for months -- until one day, after A:UI, Ultron 
perked up the suit and pretended to be Yinsen.  Does that seem likely?

Or does it seem plausible that they recovered the suit, turned it on, and 
Ultron immediately poured in from his remote location?  That the Sons thought 
they had a success on their hands all that time?

With these two assumptions, it becomes more likely that Ultron WOULD send 
the Sons to pick up the severed head of his counterpart -- if he had 
solidified his power base as "Yinsen" for some time by that point, he'd be 
able to give weird orders like "go get Ultron's head" and the Sons wouldn't 
think to distrust him.

(However, if the Sons had a failed armor on their hands for months that one 
day woke up and immediately commanded them to fetch Ultron's head, you'd 
think they'd be suspicious.)

I'm trying to allow our theory to go through without any "fan-fic" implants, 
as I've said.  And for the above scenario to work, we only have to assume 
two things, both of which are very very likely:

1)  Ultron's method of keeping his memories intact (and he surely HAS a 
method) involves backing-up his consciousness in a remote location.

2)  The Sons of Yisnen reactivated the armor at their earliest opportunity, 
rather than wait eleven issues to do so.

If we can make those two leaps, then it becomes obvious that the "implication" 
in IM3 #48 can be read several different ways -- including a way that allows 
IM3 #46 pp.1-15 to occur prior to A:UI.

And, Paul, your question about tracking the various incarnations of Ultron 
on the MCP?  For the case of this armor, which has its own unique 
consciousness that was BASED on Ultron (IM3 #26-29), and then maintained 
that separate persona even when INHABITED by Ultron (it speaks in its own 
voice in IM3 #46), I would simply list it as "Iron Man Armor" on the MCP, 
and put a separate BTS listing for IM3 #26-29 into the main Ultron chronology. 
Given that the sentient suit doesn't appear in IM3 #46 p.1-15, it won't make 
a difference either way in Ultron's chronology -- it'll still look like 
this:

...
A3 22
IM3 26-30 -BTS
A:UI
IM3 48-FB
IM3 46-48
...

Is that a better, streamlined, less fiction-y version of events?  Let me 
know your thoughts, folks.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Iron Man #46-48 -- Kurt Busiek's reply
Posted by Jeph! on September 17, 2002 at 18:55:47:
In Reply to: Iron Man #46-48 -- let's solve this thing.  (ATTN Kang War team!)
posted by Jeph! on September 14, 2002 at 13:22:22:

Well, Kang War team, I e-mailed Kurt Busiek with a synopsis of the problem, 
and with my most recent solution -- and he shot me back a quick note:

> I'm really the wrong guy to ask, since I haven't read those IRON MAN 
issues, and can't speak authoritatively to what's in them.

> Frankly, I'd be more likely to go for something simple -- Hank's YJ suit 
has internal  circuitry that turned out to be on the fritz, so he switched 
back to Goliath while awaiting the new circuits that would allow him to 
repair it.  Or something like that, that accounts for the incorrect costume 
without trying to rework the writer's intent.  Hank had reasons to choose 
the YJ outfit, but no strong reasons for refusing ever to wear a different 
suit, so if something unseen prevented him from wearing it, I could see him 
filling in with one of the other suits temporarily.

> Hope that helps -- as I note, I haven't read the Iron Man issues in 
question.  I had a hard enough time fitting the ULTRON special into AVENGERS 
continuity, since it was supposed to happen between 44 and 45, but we screwed 
up and left Cap in a wheelchair in 45.  So it's got to happen after the 
weapon-walls have manifested  but before the main events of #46, and we gave 
a tight timeframe for that...

> kdb

And that sort of puts an end to it right there:  if Kurt himself, author of 
the arc that cemented Hank's change from Goliath to YJ, feels that Hank could 
switch costumes under odd circumstances, then we should in all likelihood 
take the "Occam's razor" solution that he DID in fact switch his costume.

(On the other hand, Kurt still thinks that A:UI fits between A3 #45-46, so 
we know that he's really only thinking of Avengers continuity and not the 
big picture -- then again, why should he?  It's not HIS business to know 
the big picture, it's his editors.)

Still, in terms of the "big picture", I suppose this explanation -- Hank's 
YJ costume was on the fritz -- will have to do.  Heh.  And, given that we've 
moved A3 #45 -- where Hank actually articulates his decision to become YJ -- 
until after A:UI and after IM3 #46-48, Paul's notion that Hank was indulging 
in a bit of waffling is quite plausible, too.

Still -- I liked my theory some good.  Poo.

Sean?  Thoughts?  How's that defeat tasting for you?  ;)

    -Jeph!
bitter, bitter defeat ... ah well, one hurdle down.

			*	*	*

Re:  Iron Man #46-48 -- Kurt Busiek's reply
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 17, 2002 at 21:00:15:
In Reply to: Iron Man #46-48 -- Kurt Busiek's reply
posted by Jeph! on September 17, 2002 at 18:55:47:

> > Hope that helps -- as I note, I haven't read the Iron Man issues in 
question.  I had a hard enough time fitting the ULTRON special into AVENGERS 
continuity, since it was supposed to happen between 44 and 45, but we screwed 
up and left Cap in a wheelchair in 45.  So it's got to happen after the 
weapon-walls have manifested  but before the main events of #46, and we gave 
a tight timeframe for that...

> (On the other hand, Kurt still thinks that A:UI fits between A3 #45-46, so 
we know that he's really only thinking of Avengers continuity and not the 
big picture -- then again, why should he?  It's not HIS business to know the 
big picture, it's his editors.)

Hmm.  I'm surprised that Kurt puts A:UI between A3 45 and 46, given that 
there is no reference to the Master's weapon-walls in A:UI.  It would resolve 
that issue regarding the dialog between Hank and Wanda, BUT it would throw a 
big wrench in Iron Man's chronology, forcing IM3 46-48 into the gap of weeks 
separating A3 50 and 51, a time when Kang has conquered a good chunk of the 
world.

Jeph, this may be pushing it on your part, but did you share with Kurt your 
and Sean's theory about the *real* reason Cap was in bandages in A3 45?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re:  Iron Man #46-48 -- Kurt Busiek's reply
Posted by Jeph! on September 17, 2002 at 21:13:13:
In Reply to: Re:  Iron Man #46-48 -- Kurt Busiek's reply
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 17, 2002 at 21:00:15:

> Hmm.  I'm surprised that Kurt puts A:UI between A3 45 and 46, given that 
there is no reference to the Master's weapon-walls in A:UI.  It would resolve 
that issue regarding the dialog between Hank and Wanda, BUT it would throw a 
big wrench in Iron Man's chronology, forcing IM3 46-48 into the gap of weeks 
separating A3 50 and 51, a time when Kang has conquered a good chunk of the 
world.

Not to mention lots of other characters' chronologies that involve Iron Man 
in his "ugly" armor -- the domino effect includes Cap #45-50, Thunderbolts 
#54-60, Defenders #11 and Iron Man #49.

> Jeph, this may be pushing it on your part, but did you share with Kurt your 
and Sean's theory about the *real* reason Cap was in bandages in A3 45?

No -- no, I didn't.  And I'm not sure we need to, either.  Kurt's as much as 
said that he messed up when writing it into the continuity of the Avengers 
book -- I see no reason to point out that because of other things other 
writers did, his placement doesn't work and we had to create an alternate.

What I have done, though, is invite Kurt over here, pointing out the Kang 
War threads to him and basically letting him know the scope of what we've 
been doing.

I think what you're really asking is, seeing as our placement of Cap #50 is 
equally as wacky as our Ultron explanation, should we get Kurt's approval 
on that as well?  And my answer to that is, we'll likely get the same 
response -- "I haven't read the issues and can't accurately comment."

(Also I'd argue that our placement of Cap #50 makes truckloads more sense 
than our Ultron agenda -- comparing the two is apples and oranges.)

I don't know -- what do you think?  Should we run it by him, and risk 
getting the answer of "aw, why can't Iron Man just have changed his armor 
several other times than what we saw?"

I'll start writing up a letter ... what do the rest of you think, though?  
Sean?  Russ?  I'll hold off on sending it until I get your feedback.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re:  Iron Man #46-48 -- Kurt Busiek's reply
Posted by Russ Chappell on September 17, 2002 at 21:48:13:
In Reply to: Re:  Iron Man #46-48 -- Kurt Busiek's reply
posted by Jeph! on September 17, 2002 at 21:13:13:

I'm a little hesitant. Kurt's *well* aware of what we're doing here. I 
think you've probably already gotten all the useful information he feels 
comfortable giving.

			*	*	*

Re:  Iron Man #46-48 -- Kurt Busiek's reply
Posted by Jeph! on September 17, 2002 at 22:29:40:
In Reply to: Re:  Iron Man #46-48 -- Kurt Busiek's reply
posted by Russ Chappell on September 17, 2002 at 21:48:13:

That was my thought on the matter as well -- especially given that, at some 
point, I'd have to mention the website, and I feel uncomfortable even coming 
OFF as representing all of you (especially you, Russ).

Amd after all, why does Kurt CARE what changes we make?  It's not like we're 
asking for his help -- "letting him know" can become spamming sooner than 
you'd think.

Okay, Russ -- I won't even draft the letter.  Sorry, Paul.

    -Jeph!, ever the diplomat

			*	*	*

Re:  Iron Man #46-48 -- Kurt Busiek's reply
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 18, 2002 at 06:58:14:
In Reply to: Re:  Iron Man #46-48 -- Kurt Busiek's reply
posted by Russ Chappell on September 17, 2002 at 21:48:13:<p>
> I'm a little hesitant. Kurt's well aware of what we're doing here. I think 
you've probably already gotten all the useful information he feels comfortable 
giving.

That may be true, but the folks here have provided Kurt with an explanation 
about how his initial intention to place A:UI between A3 44 and 45 can 
actually work!  

(Back in the day, fans who could get creators out of a jam caused by an error 
got a No-Prize.)

Anyway, it must be gratifying to know that Marvel folks are interested in the 
MCP (at least to an extent).  And congratulations to Jeph for getting a 
response from Kurt.

--Paul

			*	*	*

I can't leave you kids alone for 5 minutes...
Posted by SKleefeld on September 17, 2002 at 22:54:11:
In Reply to: Questions (and Answers?) about Ultron
posted by Jeph! on September 17, 2002 at 14:24:30:

> I don't know very much about Ultron, but I'm curious about some things: 
namely, how on earth does this whole "Ultron Imperative" thing work?

Jeph, ever hear of "scope creep"? 

At some point we are going to have to give this a rest, you know!  :)

> Yes, I'm using Frank Tieri's bad writing to debunk the implications of the 
flashback.

You make total sense, Jeph, but that's WAY too much thinking to debunk an 
IMPLICATION. We already covered the fact that, for the purposes of the MCP, 
we can throw implications to the wind if need be. No questions asked.

Get some sleep, bud!  :)

> > I'm really the wrong guy to ask, since I haven't read those IRON MAN 
issues, and can't speak authoritatively to what's in them.

Key point here. Kurt says off the bat, he's the WRONG GUY TO ASK. He just 
shot his own credibility on the subject right there.

> And that sort of puts an end to it right there:  if Kurt himself, author 
of the arc that cemented Hank's change from Goliath to YJ, feels that Hank 
could switch costumes under odd circumstances, then we should in all 
likelihood take the "Occam's razor" solution that he DID in fact switch his 
costume.

Two points to say why my version is "more right" than Kurt's...

1. Character continuity comes before creator intent. If the writer or artist 
screws up, that's something we have to deal with. In this case, it's not 
terribly cumbersome, but what if somebody tried to make a Spider-Man 
flashback where Aunt May knew Peter's dual identity while he was dating 
Gwen Stacy? How do you rectify that? Creator intent would go against 
Stracyzinski's continuity, so we have to work according to CHARACTER 
CONTINUITY. Maybe May's losing it, or it was a lookalike Gwen, but the 
two main criteria cannot be reasonably met according to creator intent.

2. Kurt kills his own credibility on the subject several times here. He 
admits that he's the WRONG GUY TO ASK because HE HASN'T READ THE ISSUES IN 
QUESTION! Coupled with the fact that he admits to screwing up the continuity 
in regards to A:UI, I think we have to take his words here with some very 
large grains of salt. PLUS he didn't even write those issues! If we're going 
to take creator intent into the picture, call Tieri to the mat!

> (On the other hand, Kurt still thinks that A:UI fits between A3 #45-46, so 
we know that he's really only thinking of Avengers continuity and not the 
big picture -- then again, why should he?  It's not HIS business to know the 
big picture, it's his editors.)

And I will NOT allow Hank to throw his YJ costume in the wash here!

> Still -- I liked my theory some good.  Poo.

Still valid. Creator intent be damned.

> Sean?  Thoughts?  How's that defeat tasting for you?  ;)

Sweet like chocolate, baby!

Oh, wait, didn't you mean "victory"?

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Hire a babysitter
Posted by Jeph! on September 17, 2002 at 23:13:31:
In Reply to: I can't leave you kids alone for 5 minutes...
posted by SKleefeld on September 17, 2002 at 22:54:11:

At this point I've set the board as my homepage.  It's an addiction.

> Jeph, ever hear of "scope creep"? 

Uhm ... no.

> At some point we are going to have to give this a rest, you know!  :)

"We"?  You mean "me".

> You make total sense, Jeph, but that's WAY too much thinking to debunk an 
IMPLICATION.

Just trying to satisfy Paul.  Plus I need SOME outlet ... I mean, I think of 
thisd junk all day -- gotta tell SOMEone.

> Get some sleep, bud!  :)

Now that it's off my chest -- done.

> Two points to say why my version is "more right" than Kurt's...

Sean, your task is to now convince Russ and Paul.  If you can do it, I'll 
throw in behind you.  Right now -- I honestly don't care.  I'm developing 
TWO final versions of events right now, going either way.  I want to see 
what differences there are -- if they end up being MAJORLY different, I'll 
switch sides.

I think I've come up with possibly the most plausible-sounding theory I ever 
will.  Use it as you will -- I believe it; i WROTE it!

> And I will NOT allow Hank to throw his YJ costume in the wash here!

Good man.  Good luck.

I sleep now.  I do that sometimes, you know.

Yes, Sean, I meant "victory".  ;)

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Is this the 1st "Problem Comic" thread?
Posted by Kevin  on September 18, 2002 at 09:06:28:
In Reply to: Iron Man #46-48 -- let's solve this thing.  (ATTN Kang War team!)
posted by Jeph! on September 14, 2002 at 13:22:22:

Remember when someone here said they'd bring the problem comics up for 
discussion, so we could resolve their problems once and for all? Looks to me 
like this is the 1st...sorry, but the only issue of the one's being discussed 
that I have is "Ultron Imperative".

> Yes, I'm using Frank Tieri's bad writing to debunk the implications of the 
flashback.

I feel the need to clarify this as meaning "Bad writing by way of it messes 
with how we are trying to make chronologies for Marvel characters".  Marvel 
writers and editors, (and we know some of you drop in from time to time) WE 
LOVE YOUR WORK!  Sometimes it just messes with our heads when attempting to 
create a continuity that works, that's all!

On the subject of Marvel writers, it's nice to see Kurt admit the mistake of 
Cap being in bandages in #45 of Avengers, when he's got the Ultron Imperative 
happening right before that, (or he did have it happening right before 
that)...

> Two points to say why my version is "more right" than Kurt's...

> 1. Character continuity comes before creator intent. If the writer or 
artist screws up, that's something we have to deal with. In this case, it's 
not terribly cumbersome, but what if somebody tried to make a Spider-Man 
flashback where Aunt May knew Peter's dual identity while he was dating Gwen 
Stacy? How do you rectify that? Creator intent would go against Stracyzinski's 
continuity, so we have to work according to CHARACTER CONTINUITY. Maybe May's 
losing it, or it was a lookalike Gwen, but the two main criteria cannot be 
reasonably met according to creator intent.

> 2. Kurt kills his own credibility on the subject several times here. He 
admits that he's the WRONG GUY TO ASK because HE HASN'T READ THE ISSUES IN 
QUESTION! Coupled with the fact that he admits to screwing up the continuity 
in regards to A:UI, I think we have to take his words here with some very 
large grains of salt. PLUS he didn't even write those issues! If we're going 
to take creator intent into the picture, call Tieri to the mat!

But Creator intent does hold weight, when applicable!  Is it really that 
hard to say "Hank took off the Yellowjacket costume temporarily"?  If we 
buy that he took his costume off temporarily, and put on the old Goliath 
costume, then you save yourself the trouble of splitting IM #46 into a gap.  
Aren't you saving yourself some trouble by taking Kurt's word that Hank 
would take his costume off for one time? After all, we're placing this as 
happening before his "resolution" to Wanda in Avengers #45, right?

On the other hand, Kurt admits the error of Cap's bandages, and suggests 
placing Ultron Imperative between Avengers #45 and #46, if I read that 
correctly.  But judging from comments made about IM's armor, this is 
unacceptable for continuities purpose.  So if that's the case, then yes, 
I would argue that Kurt's idea for where to place Ultron Imperative will 
probably have to be null and void.  

Sorry, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here. Or is that Writer's Advocate? 
Or are the two synonimous? :)

Jeph, I'd say emailing Kurt our reasoning for CAP's bandages = the events 
of CAP #50 won't solve much. He'd have no say on those events in that issue.  
However, I'd be all for emailing Kurt as to how HE THINKS Ultron's Imperative 
works, (whether it's a reboot from a distant location into a body made by 
other robots, or some such thing)...clarification on that point could help 
resolve this debate.

I'd also like an answer from SOMEONE at Marvel explaining whether the events 
of CAP #50 will ever be resolved in another comic book, or whether that's a 
What If story or whatever!  Or whether we COULD INDEED use it as an 
explanation of CAP's bandages in Avengers #45. 

That's all. Take care for now. :)

			*	*	*

MCP integrity
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on September 18, 2002 at 13:01:16:
In Reply to: Hire a babysitter
posted by Jeph! on September 17, 2002 at 23:13:31:

Previously, Jeph! wrote:

> At this point I've set the board as my homepage.  It's an addiction.

Yeh, you and Sean scare me.  Not that I don't admire it.  I've been itching 
to jump in, but I don't pick up half the books in question, including IRON 
MAN.

Sean said:

> Jeph, ever hear of "scope creep"? 

Jeph! replied:

> Uhm ... no.

Neither have I.

Sean:

> At some point we are going to have to give this a rest, you know!  :)

I take it that's a joke (at Jeph!'s expense), but I think it's great that 
this stuff is being ironed out with such care.  It'll give us that much more 
confidence in the chronology's integrity.  As an aside, if I'm not mistaken, 
a few of the books in the Maximum Security-to-present era being debated are 
included in the Project already.  What happens when we change their order?  
It'll be a lot of work for Russ to rearrange all those entries.

Sean:

> You make total sense, Jeph, but that's WAY too much thinking to debunk an 
IMPLICATION.

The thing is, an implication may actually turn out to mean something, so it's 
best to follow up every lead.

Sean:

> Two points to say why my version is "more right" than Kurt's...

I love Kurt and he's written some of my favorite stories, but he's not always 
the best place to go for advice on these matters.  As was stated, he (1) 
didn't write the IMs in question (2) didn't read them, and (3) wasn't clear 
on the chrono in HIS OWN BOOK at this point.

While Kurt can go on discussing characters to no end, he stated a while back 
something to the effect that he had little interest in chronologizing.  
Granted, he uses the Project as a resource, but would rather not get into 
the nuts and bolts.  If you ask him which book came before which, AND he 
happened to write them, you can get an answer.  If you ask him about the 
mechanics of things, like whether Ultron uses Wi-Fi, he'll probably say 
that until it has been established in a story, it is unknown even to him 
(much like he didn't know what the Intelligence Supreme was going to do with 
the Forever Crystal until he wrote MAXIMUM SECURITY).

OTOH, he may surprise you with having worked this out ahead of time or 
remembering an obscure reference.  As an example, I asked him a while ago 
how the Time Keepers (or the Twisters) can be all there is at the End of 
Time.  He said that eventually, many realities' universes keep on expanding 
and die out or are otherwise destroyed.  Others tend toward similarity and 
merge with each other until, at the End of Time, there are only two.

Sean:

> And I will NOT allow Hank to throw his YJ costume in the wash here!

I don't blame you.  I'm something of a fundamentalist chronologist myself, 
and it seems rather bizarre that Kurt would suggest this as a possibility 
when there is a viable alternative.

- StAkAr Karnak, "cabal" indeed!

			*	*	*

Dr. Midas
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on September 18, 2002 at 13:05:14:
In Reply to: Re: Iron Man #46-48 -- let's solve this thing.  (ATTN Kang War 
team!)
posted by SKleefeld on September 14, 2002 at 23:16:28:

Sean wrote:

> The only shadowy villain in the 2000 Annual is called "Dr. Midas" with a 
footnote (hey, remember those?) to check out Marvel Boy #1. I could only 
stomach the first issue or two of that series, but I believe Dr. Midas was 
an alternate reality Tony Stark or some such.

Sorry you didn't like that mini - I loved it.  As it turned out, MARVEL 
BOY *was*/is canon (this question has popped up here before), but Midas was 
definitely not Stark.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Multi-post response
Posted by SKleefeld on September 18, 2002 at 15:34:34:
In Reply to: Dr. Midas
posted by StAkAr Karnak on September 18, 2002 at 13:05:14:

From Paul:

> (Back in the day, fans who could get creators out of a jam caused by an 
error got a No-Prize.)

Already got one, thanks. Unfortunately, not one of the "real" no-prizes from 
back in the day whne they actually mailed them to you, but it was still 
before they started handing them out to anyone who asked.

From Kevin:

> But Creator intent does hold weight, when applicable!  

Absolutely. But character continuity holds MORE weight in the final analysis.

> Is it really that hard to say "Hank took off the Yellowjacket costume 
temporarily"?  If we buy that he took his costume off temporarily, and put 
on the old Goliath costume, then you save yourself the trouble of splitting 
IM #46 into a gap.  Aren't you saving yourself some trouble by taking Kurt's 
word that Hank would take his costume off for one time? After all, we're 
placing this as happening before his "resolution" to Wanda in Avengers #45, 
right?

With most Marvel characters, I would generally agree. But there are a 
handful that are tied a little more directly to their respective costumes: 
Iron Man, Yellowjacket, for example. 

Comics are a visual medium and the characters are identified by their visuals. 
Hank Pym sans uniform is just some blond guy. Could be Steve Rogers, could be 
Clint Barton. How Hank behaves and reacts is identified by his uniform. Look 
at how he acts in Avengers Forever. Compare Goliath to Yellowjacket. They 
don't act the same, because they're essentially two different characters. 
Without their uniforms, they've visually identical, so we as readers need a 
coherent visual to identify how Hank can and should be acting.

THAT'S why I don't buy into the arguement that he had his Yellowjacket 
uniform in the proverbial wash for one issue.

From StAkAr Karnak:

> > Jeph, ever hear of "scope creep"? 

> Jeph! replied:

> > Uhm ... no.

> Neither have I.

Hurm... Not as commonly used as I thought. In businesses, it generally 
refers to a project that starts off with one set of boundaries. But then 
someone adds something to make it a little larger. And someone else adds 
something to make that a little larger. And so on, and so forth until the 
project has quintupled in size and people start pulling out their hair 
because it's gotten out of hand.

>> The thing is, an implication may actually turn out to mean something, so 
it's best to follow up every lead.

Implications are fine, if they're not contradicted by other content. When 
we're dealing with issues like we have here, with contrasting sets of data, 
we have to omit the less-verifiable.

> Sorry you didn't like that mini - I loved it.  As it turned out, MARVEL 
BOY *was*/is canon (this question has popped up here before), but Midas was 
definitely not Stark.

Well, it boils down to me not liking Morrison's writing at all. The most 
tolerable piece of his I've read was Skrull Kill Krew and thought that was 
just about on par with the other drek Marvel was putting out around then. 

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Multi-color response
Posted by Jeph! on September 19, 2002 at 00:05:21:
In Reply to: Multi-post response
posted by SKleefeld on September 18, 2002 at 15:34:34:

And here's MY multi-post response, nice and colorful.  Apologies in advance 
if I misidentified anyone, and heres' hoping the HTML works.

RUSS: Kurt's well aware of what we're doing here. I think you've probably 
already gotten all the useful information he feels comfortable giving.

PAUL: That may be true, but the folks here have provided Kurt with an 
explanation about how his initial intention to place A:UI between A3 44 and 
45 can actually work!

Right, but Kurt's no longer writing for Marvel  odds are, he doesn't CARE.  
It's great that he respects the MCP as a body of work, but I think that part 
of KEEPING his respect would be to not pester him with every detail we 
notice  I think, in large part, what we do is very separate from Marvel as 
a company, and we're allowed to make chronology decisions that conflict with 
theirs if we feel it best.  They don't have to agree, or even know we did 
it  our work is a REFLECTION of theirs, it's not a two-way street.

I'm all for doing our own thing completely seperate from them.

KEVIN: Is this the 1st "Problem Comic" thread?  Remember when someone here 
said they'd bring the problem comics up for discussion, so we could resolve 
their problems once and for all? Looks to me like this is the 1st...

Yep  I was in the middle of working on the "puzzle pieces" post, and I 
realized that we'd never come to a consensus about the discrepancies in this 
issue.  Figured I'd let everyone have their say  and boy, have they.

JEPH:  Yes, I'm using Frank Tieri's bad writing to debunk the implications 
of the flashback.

KEVIN: I feel the need to clarify this as meaning "Bad writing by way of it 
messes with how we are trying to make chronologies for Marvel characters".

Nope.  Bad writing.  According to this flashback, Ultron ordered the armor 
to dispatch the Sons of Yinsen to retrive him  why not just get the ARMOR 
to do it?  I mean, Ultron is supposed to be running the Sons secretly, from 
behind the scenes  how hard would that job become if at least five Sons 
knew that their organization had salvaged the head of Ultron recently?

Also, I hate the implication that either the Sons conveniently never once 
turned the salvaged armor ON for thirteen issues; or that it WAS on, and 
didn't work right for thirteen issues, until one day it perked up and came 
alive, and everyone believed it.  There's a small window between A:UI and 
IM3 #46 in any case  am I supposed to believe that the Sons mobilized under 
their new leader that quickly?

Bad writing.  I love Tieri's work to bits, but he's sloppy.

SEAN: Kurt kills his own credibility on the subject several times here. He 
admits that he's the WRONG GUY TO ASK because HE HASN'T READ THE ISSUES IN 
QUESTION!

However,  my point was that Kurt wrote the HANK PYM ARC that we've been 
arguing over  and if he says that Hank wouldn't have a problem switching 
back for some reason, we should believe it.  We should at least CONSIDER it, 
yes?

KEVIN: I'd be all for emailing Kurt as to how HE THINKS Ultron's Imperative 
works, (whether it's a reboot from a distant location into a body made by 
other robots, or some such thing)...clarification on that point could help 
resolve this debate.

That actually WAS in the letter I sent him  I outlined my theory on how the 
Imperative worked.  You saw his FULL reply  he didn't even discuss the 
Imperative, he simply cut straight to "Hank can change his outfit, you know."

I don't know if I want to bother him again.

KEVIN: I'd also like an answer from SOMEONE at Marvel explaining whether the 
events of CAP #50 will ever be resolved in another comic book, or whether 
that's a What If story or whatever! Or whether we COULD INDEED use it as an 
explanation of CAP's bandages in Avengers #45.

The trouble with that is that their answers will be entirely based on their 
"intent".  These folks LIVE WITH creator intent  they ARE the creators  
character intent holds sway over all they do, and it peppers their replies 
to us.  In all likelihood, even if we explained with big happy diagrams to 
them how we can rearrange the comics to make Cap's bandages mirror his "death" 
in Cap #50 instead of his irradiation in A3 #44  they wouldn't go along with 
it.  The picture we're painting is too broad, the evidence gathered from too 
many sources that they either haven't read, or had an active hand in 
developing and feel protective towards.  They don't see it as a "problem" in 
the same way we do; they don't feel an urgency to "resolve" it  they just 
shake their heads at us wacky fans and go make more comic books.  They're 
simply too close to the material to see it the way we do, and play with it 
the way we can.

StAkAr: if I'm not mistaken, a few of the books in the Maximum Security-to-
present era being debated are included in the Project already. What happens 
when we change their order? It'll be a lot of work for Russ to rearrange all 
those entries.

Yep  but that's what the posting board is for, to "fix" things that are 
wrong on the MCP.  Sorry, Russ, but it's a labor of love, right?

SEAN: And I will NOT allow Hank to throw his YJ costume in the wash here!

No, no, Sean.  It was on the fritz, not in the wash!  It's a WORLD of 
difference.  ;)

StAkAr: I don't blame you. I'm something of a fundamentalist chronologist 
myself, and it seems rather bizarre that Kurt would suggest this as a 
possibility when there is a viable alternative.

I agree  unless he felt our alternative was not viable.  We should consider 
that too.

Sean and I seem to feel the Ultron explanation IS viable, though  and Paul 
is on the fence.  It'd be great to hear Russ' opinion, though.  Hey board  
anyone else out there think our Ultron excuse is logical and plausible?  
Weigh in!

SEAN: Implications are fine, if they're not contradicted by other content. 
When we're dealing with issues like we have here, with contrasting sets of 
data, we have to omit the less-verifiable.

KEVIN: Creator intent does hold weight, when applicable!

SEAN: Absolutely. But character continuity holds MORE weight in the final 
analysis  there are a handful [of MU characters] that are tied a little 
more directly to their respective costumes: Iron Man, Yellowjacket, for 
example. Compare Goliath to Yellowjacket. They don't act the same, because 
they're essentially two different characters. Without their uniforms, they've 
visually identical, so we as readers need a coherent visual to identify how 
Hank can and should be acting.  THAT'S why I don't buy into the arguement 
that he had his Yellowjacket uniform in the proverbial wash for one issue.

In my mind, it comes down to this  we have to screw over one of two 
characters: Hank Pym, or Ultron.  We have a choice, and both screw-overs 
have relatively reasonable rationales to them: Ultron has mad scary back-up 
plans, or Hank Pym's YJ costume broke.

So: who would you rather screw over?

I'd go with Ultron, for one very good reason: in MCP terms, it WON'T SHOW.  
No matter what we decide in terms of his backstory, his MCP entries will 
still go from A3 #22 to A:UI to IM3 #48-FB to IM3 #46.  The only placement 
we're debating is IM3 #46 pp.1-15, and neither Ultron nor the sentient 
armor appear in those pages.

Also, Ultron's the bad guy and Hank Pym's the good guy.  And the bad guys 
ALWAYS have ridiculous explanations for their survival.

So yes, I'm still fighting this one.  It'd be great to just put the sucker 
to a vote and get it over with, but I'd like to hear from the two other "big 
guns"  Paul and Russ  with their definitive feelings.

Whose continuity would you rather screw over: Hank Pym's, or Ultron's?

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Multiply times Infinity!
Posted by Kevin  on September 19, 2002 at 12:46:03:
In Reply to: Multi-color response
posted by Jeph! on September 19, 2002 at 00:05:21:

That's my first crack at a title to a thread that sounds utterly ridiculous. 
Kudos to Jeph! for inspiring me.

>KEVIN: I feel the need to clarify this as meaning "Bad writing by way of it 
messes with how we are trying to make chronologies for Marvel characters".

>Nope. Bad writing. According to this flashback, Ultron ordered the armor to 
dispatch the Sons of Yinsen to retrive him  why not just get the ARMOR to 
do it? I mean, Ultron is supposed to be running the Sons secretly, from 
behind the scenes  how hard would that job become if at least five Sons 
knew that their organization had salvaged the head of Ultron recently?

>Also, I hate the implication that either the Sons conveniently never once 
turned the salvaged armor ON for thirteen issues; or that it WAS on, and 
didn't work right for thirteen issues, until one day it perked up and came 
alive, and everyone believed it. There's a small window between A:UI and 
IM3 #46 in any case  am I supposed to believe that the Sons mobilized under 
their new leader that quickly?

>Bad writing. I love Tieri's work to bits, but he's sloppy.

Yeah, it probably is sloppy, but it still sounds like your beef is with the 
internal flow of the IM plot AS RELATED TO CHRONOLOGY WHICH IS WHAT PEOPLE 
AT THIS MESSAGE BOARD ARE ALL ABOUT. But A casual Marvel comics reader might 
not have thought nothing of it.  But you guys have intrigued me enough with 
your discussion of the plot to make me interested in running by the comic 
shop to see if I can pick up a copy.  That's gotta say something for his 
work. Besides, I like Ultron.

Still, as Sean pointed out, he hates Morrison's writing, so I suppose we 
can't say we UNANIMOUSLY LOVE everything that Marvel puts out.  Folks at 
Marvel, we love you anyway! :)

>KEVIN: I'd be all for emailing Kurt as to how HE THINKS Ultron's Imperative 
works, (whether it's a reboot from a distant location into a body made by 
other robots, or some such thing)...clarification on that point could help 
resolve this debate.

>That actually WAS in the letter I sent him  I outlined my theory on how 
the Imperative worked. You saw his FULL reply  he didn't even discuss the 
Imperative, he simply cut straight to "Hank can change his outfit, you know."

>I don't know if I want to bother him again.

Well, if he chose not to respond to that part of your letter, we can take 
that to mean that he doesn't feel it warrants discussion. That means, it's 
up to us to interpret it as we see fit. Which is what you guys did, so that's 
fine.

>KEVIN: I'd also like an answer from SOMEONE at Marvel explaining whether 
the events of CAP #50 will ever be resolved in another comic book, or whether 
that's a What If story or whatever! Or whether we COULD INDEED use it as an 
explanation of CAP's bandages in Avengers #45.

>The trouble with that is that their answers will be entirely based on their 
"intent". These folks LIVE WITH creator intent  they ARE the creators  
character intent holds sway over all they do, and it peppers their replies 
to us. In all likelihood, even if we explained with big happy diagrams to 
them how we can rearrange the comics to make Cap's bandages mirror his 
"death" in Cap #50 instead of his irradiation in A3 #44  they wouldn't go 
along with it. The picture we're painting is too broad, the evidence gathered 
from too many sources that they either haven't read, or had an active hand in 
developing and feel protective towards. They don't see it as a "problem" in 
the same way we do; they don't feel an urgency to "resolve" it  they just 
shake their heads at us wacky fans and go make more comic books. They're 
simply too close to the material to see it the way we do, and play with it 
the way we can.

Well, I don't want to say "Look, we fixed your problem Marvel, and this is 
how we did it: Insert CAP #50 into slot A, blah, blah, blah..."

What I want is some freaking clarafication on their part as to why they 
published that story if it has no ramifications anywhere else.  Back in the 
day, the death of a character, (or even supposed death of a character: ala 
Superman) was a big event, and got mentioned in several titles. Some would 
say we should be glad that time has passed. Now we can tell a characters 
death in dignity, without pointless crossover events.  But here we have 
CAP #50, the end to a series...and CAP shows up in the next issue of 
Avengers, and in the next issue of CAP Vol. 4, okay? Huh?  Yeah, we've 
found a way to explain is, (CAP in bandages in Avengers) but that's not 
official...

Okay, let me phrase it this way: the Marvel Universe works because it's 
characters and titles are intricantly related...so why hasn't Marvel 
discussed this issue of CAP anywhere else?  Which leads me to question 
its canoness, but the solution we came up with works.

>>Is it really that hard to say "Hank took off the Yellowjacket costume 
temporarily"? If we buy that he took his costume off temporarily, and put 
on the old Goliath costume, then you save yourself the trouble of splitting 
IM #46 into a gap. Aren't you saving yourself some trouble by taking Kurt's 
word that Hank would take his costume off for one time? After all, we're 
placing this as happening before his "resolution" to Wanda in Avengers #45, 
right?

>With most Marvel characters, I would generally agree. But there are a 
handful that are tied a little more directly to their respective costumes: 
Iron Man, Yellowjacket, for example. 

>Comics are a visual medium and the characters are identified by their 
visuals. Hank Pym sans uniform is just some blond guy. Could be Steve 
Rogers, could be Clint Barton. How Hank behaves and reacts is identified 
by his uniform. Look at how he acts in Avengers Forever. Compare Goliath 
to Yellowjacket. They don't act the same, because they're essentially two 
different characters. Without their uniforms, they've visually identical, 
so we as readers need a coherent visual to identify how Hank can and should 
be acting.

>THAT'S why I don't buy into the arguement that he had his Yellowjacket 
uniform in the proverbial wash for one issue.

>Whose continuity would you rather screw over: Hank Pym's, or Ultron's?

One way to help me resolve this is if someone could post Hank Pym's 
thoughts/speech in said issue of IM.  He's in Goliath costume, but is he 
talking stable like Goliath, or is he talking bold like Yellowjacket.  Yes, 
Sean, I'm willing to lean towards your theory, but splitting an issue in two 
is tricky business...If Hank is speaking like Yellowjacket, then uh...maybe 
Tieri is going by Busiek's way of thinking, and it's the artist's mistake 
only that he was depicted in Goliath outfit?

So I'm still borderline as to which of the two characters to screw over...

			*	*	*

Infinity ... and Beyond?
Posted by Jeph! on September 19, 2002 at 13:12:27:
In Reply to: Multiply times Infinity!
posted by Kevin  on September 19, 2002 at 12:46:03:

> That's my first crack at a title to a thread that sounds utterly ridiculous. 
Kudos to Jeph! for inspiring me.

It's an art, baby.

> >Bad writing. I love Tieri's work to bits, but he's sloppy.

> Yeah, it probably is sloppy, but it still sounds like your beef is with 
the internal flow of the IM plot AS RELATED TO CHRONOLOGY WHICH IS WHAT 
PEOPLE AT THIS MESSAGE BOARD ARE ALL ABOUT.

Kinda -- I mean, I noticed the sloppiness when I read it, but since I don't 
collecte Iron Man, I didn't care.  But now, now that we're LOOKING to punch 
holes in Ultron's story, I'm grabbing and using the loopholes Tieri's 
sloppiness gives us.

In this case, I guess it's GOOD that he's sloppy.

>>> I'd be all for emailing Kurt as to how HE THINKS Ultron's Imperative 
works.

>>> That actually WAS in the letter I sent him. You saw his FULL reply  he 
didn't even discuss the Imperative ... I don't know if I want to bother him 
again.

> Well, if he chose not to respond to that part of your letter, we can take 
that to mean that he doesn't feel it warrants discussion. That means, it's 
up to us to interpret it as we see fit. Which is what you guys did, so that's 
fine.

THERE you go.  ;)

>>>> I'd also like an answer from SOMEONE at Marvel explaining whether the 
events of CAP #50 will ever be resolved in another comic book...

> What I want is some freaking clarafication on their part as to why they 
published that story if it has no ramifications anywhere else ... here we 
have CAP #50, the end to a series...and CAP shows up in the next issue of 
Avengers, and in the next issue of CAP Vol. 4, okay? Huh? ... Which leads 
me to question it's canoness.

Yeah.  What it boils down to is that I'm afraid to get an answer from Marvel 
that I don't want to hear., like "oh, ignore it -- it's non-canon."

The trouble is, Marvel and the MCP have different ideas about canonicity.  
Odds are, nobody involved in the creation of "Rogue" vol. 2 will know for 
sure that it's non-canon -- they probably INTENDED it to be canon when they 
were writing it.  Same with Cap #50, in reverse.  It was very likely INTENDED 
to be canon when written, but we know that the storyline in Cap v4 #1-6 was 
massively rewritten to be more patriotic, after 9/11 -- and any offhand 
mention of Cap's resurrection was likely brushed under the rug as non-
essential and confusing.

Cap #50 was pretty clearly SUPPOSED to be canon when it was published -- the 
Marvel characters cameoing corresponded fairly well to the mainstream MU at 
the time -- Iron Man in ugly armor, Red Skull and Absorbing Man in jail, etc 
etc.  And I'm afraid that if we bother someone at Marvel now, they'll give 
us an OFFHAND RESPONSE of "eeeh, no, it ain't canon.  Now leave me alone", 
because they know that no resolution-story is in the works.  And based on 
their throwaway solution to the problem, we'll delete a large chunk of MCP 
continuity.

You can write to Marvel if you want, and ask what the deal was -- but I say 
we should keep Cap #50 IN the MCP no matter what answer you get.

>> Whose continuity would you rather screw over: Hank Pym's, or Ultron's?

> One way to help me resolve this is if someone could post Hank Pym's 
thoughts/speech in said issue of IM.

This is a GREAT idea.  Sean?  (Or anyone else with the issue?)  This would 
be a BIG help in figuring out how to deal with this.

> He's in Goliath costume, but is he talking stable like Goliath, or is he 
talking bold like Yellowjacket ... If Hank is speaking like Yellowjacket, 
then uh...maybe Tieri is going by Busiek's way of thinking, and it's the 
artist's mistake only that he was depicted in Goliath outfit?

As far as I remember, he's being all scientific about Tony's artificial 
heart.  Goliath-like.  But yeah, there's a CLEAR change in speaking 
patterns -- we'll see.  Good thought, Kevin!

> So I'm still borderline as to which of the two characters to screw over...

And maybe this will help you decide?

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Hank Pym in IM3 46
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 19, 2002 at 21:13:49:
In Reply to: Infinity ... and Beyond?
posted by Jeph! on September 19, 2002 at 13:12:27:

> > One way to help me resolve this is if someone could post Hank Pym's 
thoughts/speech in said issue of IM.

> This is a GREAT idea.  Sean?  (Or anyone else with the issue?)  This would 
be a BIG help in figuring out how to deal with this.

> > He's in Goliath costume, but is he talking stable like Goliath, or is 
he talking bold like Yellowjacket ... If Hank is speaking like Yellowjacket, 
then uh...maybe Tieri is going by Busiek's way of thinking, and it's the 
artist's mistake only that he was depicted in Goliath outfit?

> As far as I remember, he's being all scientific about Tony's artificial 
heart.  Goliath-like.  But yeah, there's a CLEAR change in speaking 
patterns -- we'll see.  Good thought, Kevin!

HANK: "I wish I could be as cavlier about this as you appear to be, Tony...
but this is no laughing matter.  Your artificial heart...has evolved."

HANK: "I've found myself at a loss as well.  One the left is your mechanical 
heart when it first was put into you.  And here it is now.  It's begun to 
not only serve as your heart -- but also to involve itself in the function 
of your other organs as well.  Any sort of operation now --"

HANK: "It's always something -- isn't it Tony?"

HANK: "Understood."

HANK: "Ha! Ha! Remind me never to answer nature's call here.  But on that 
note, folks, I've got to split.  I promised Jan I'd do some shopping with 
her -- and you know what happens if you're late for one of Jan's shopping 
sprees."

Okay, several things here...

1) Why the heck is Hank dressed in ANY superhero costume in this scene?  He's 
in a LAB and he's about to go shopping.  Yeah, that Goliath outfit sure comes 
in handy for those activities...

2) SHOPPING SPREE?  I don't think Jan is likely to spend her time out 
exercising the ol' credit card anytime after the Kang War is raging full 
tilt (between A3 45 and 54).  The woman is team leader at this point, for 
cryin' out loud.  That doesn't help place the early part of IM3 46 before 
or after A:UI, but it's just something that caught my attention.

3) So, Hank's speech...
It looks to me like this can't be the Yellowjacket persona imitating Goliath 
during the time he had Goliath imprisoned (A3 36 through A@ 2001).  Placing 
IM3 46 before A3 36 is way to problematic, so I'm left to conclude that 
Goliath appears here AFTER Hank Pym is cured of his multiple personalities.  
He can concentrate on scientific matters and make a joke (not to mention 
make time for fun with Jan, perhaps to work off some anxiety over mounting 
threats).

Okay, so all this places both IM3 46 in its entirety and A:UI between A@ 
2001/A3 44 and A3 45.

Is there merit to splitting IM3 46 into two parts for the sake of Hank Pym 
costume consistency.  As I've said, I definitely wouldn't place IM3 46 after 
Hank's big speech to Wanda in A3 45.

IM3 46 was written to occur in its entirety after A:UI and Kurt Busiek, the 
man responsible for Hank Pym's characterization, said it's entirely feasible 
for Hank to switch back to the Goliath costume if the YJ outfit had some 
bugs to work out or was on the fritz.

I'm inclined to go with the least inference rule.  Bugs in a costume involves 
less plot construction than the Ultron proposal.

Then there's the issue of Tony leaving Sun Tao in the lab for a number of 
days to allow for the proposed gap in IM3 46.  I'd just think it would be 
characteristic of Tony to shove other matters aside to deal with the 
important issue at hand in IM3 46.

Now, if we can allow a solid month or so between A:UI and IM3 46 to allow: 
for the Sons of Yinsen to dig up the sentient armor and have the pre-
programming kick in and be mistaken for Yinsen (IM3 47-FB #1 beginning); for 
the Sons (without Sun Tao) to immediately retrieve the Ultron head (IM3 
48-FB); for Ultron to download into the sentient armor (BTS); for Ultron to 
spend a week or so having the Sons make a bunch of armors and for a 
suspicious Sun-Tao to be dealt with (IM3 47-- FB #1 end); and for the Sons 
to go public with the Church of Yinsen, active for "a few weeks" by the 
time of IM3 46.

Then I'd be hopping off the fence into the opposite camp.  The "mess with 
a villain's chronology over a hero's chronology" approach shouldn't be a 
rule of thumb, but each continuity challenge should be examined on its own 
merits, with an attempt to find the easier solution (involving less plot 
implant).

Okay, Sean, let 'er rip...

--Paul

			*	*	*

To Hank's rescue... again
Posted by SKleefeld on September 19, 2002 at 22:22:52:
In Reply to: Infinity ... and Beyond?
posted by Jeph! on September 19, 2002 at 13:12:27:

> >> Whose continuity would you rather screw over: Hank Pym's, or Ultron's?

> > One way to help me resolve this is if someone could post Hank Pym's 
thoughts/speech in said issue of IM.

> This is a GREAT idea.  Sean?  (Or anyone else with the issue?)  This would 
be a BIG help in figuring out how to deal with this.

> > He's in Goliath costume, but is he talking stable like Goliath, or is he 
talking bold like Yellowjacket ... If Hank is speaking like Yellowjacket, 
then uh...maybe Tieri is going by Busiek's way of thinking, and it's the 
artist's mistake only that he was depicted in Goliath outfit?

> As far as I remember, he's being all scientific about Tony's artificial 
heart.  Goliath-like.  But yeah, there's a CLEAR change in speaking 
patterns -- we'll see.  Good thought, Kevin!

> > So I'm still borderline as to which of the two characters to screw over...

> And maybe this will help you decide?

You guys really want to make me earn this one, don't you?  

T for Tony, G for Goliath, P for Pepper, H for Happy Hogan...

T: So what's the verdict, Doc? How many months do I have left?

G: I wish I could be as cavalier about this as you appear to be, Tony... But 
this is no laughing matter. Your artificial heart... has evolved.

T: That's the same conclusions I came up with, I'm afraid. Apparently it 
adapted itself in order to compensate for the Ghost's attack. But while I'm 
not wild about having something so unpredictable inside my chest -- I'm not 
sure what we can do about it.

G: I've found myself at a loss as well. On the left is your mechanical heart 
when it first was put into you. And here it is now. It's begun to not only 
serve as your heart -- but also to involve itself in the function of your 
other organs as well. Any sort of operation now---

T: Will kill me.

G: It's alwasy something -- isn't it, Tony? Uh-oh -- here come Happy and 
Pepper.

T: Not a word, Hank -- I've given these two enough to worry about as of late.

G: Understood.

P: What are you up to now, Tony? Bothering Hank for tech ideas for the new 
Stark Enterprises?

T: Uh... yeah. That's exactly what I'm doing.

H: Geez, boss -- You've been on some hell of a mission with all sorts of 
new gadgets and doohickies for the new SE. It's almost like you're trying 
to overcompensate for that technowhatsis ya had.

T: Technophobia -- and no, Hap. I'm just doing everything in my power to 
make sure the new Stark Enterprises as good as it possibly can be.

H: OK... But I still say you're overdoing it. I mean, I think we can do 
without the robot in the bathroom offering assistance, ya know?

G: Ha! Ha! Remind me never to answer nature's call here. But on that note, 
folks, I've got to split. I promised Jan I'd do some shopping with her -- and 
you know what happens if you're late for one of Jan's shopping sprees.

T: Say no more. Thanks, Hank -- and we'll talk soon about... those tech ideas.

And Hank leaves.

I don't know about you guys, but I don't think that first line about him not 
being very cavalier is definitely NOT up Yellowjacket's alley. And, to make 
sure I'm really hammering the point home, some excerpts from Avengers Anuual 
2001...

Goliath (to Jan about Yellowjacket): He's impulsive, thoughtless -- He just 
reacts! Leaps headlong into trouble, lashes out without knowing who he's... 
he's...

Kurt Busiek on Yellowjacket, ladies and gentlemen.

And then later in the story, we have...

Goliath (speaking about the old-style cotume Jan is wearing): You designed 
that costume when I was Goliath -- when I was me.

Yellowjacket: No, that's the costume she met me in.

Jan: I don't understand. Why does it matter?

Kurt Busiek on the importance of costumes in regards to Hank's life! At the 
same time, the UNimportance of costumes in Jan's life. This is what I've been 
saying all along.

Goliath (to Yellowjacket): You're brave. You're fearless. You're everything 
I want to be.

Yellowjacket: I know. But its not such a party, being me. I cause trouble. 
I make mistakes... But you --- you're smart. You're careful. You think 
things through. I don't have that.

Kurt Busiek on the differences between Goliath and Yellowjacket.

And there you have it!

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Fascinating...
Posted by SKleefeld on September 19, 2002 at 22:52:57:
In Reply to: Hank Pym in IM3 46
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 19, 2002 at 21:13:49:

I actually started typing my response a while back, but had to leave it and 
come back, thinking no one else would bother hashing out the dialogue. One 
screen refresh later, I find that you beat me to the punch, Paul, but also 
managed to use the same dialogue to come to different conclusions.

> Okay, several things here...

> 1) Why the heck is Hank dressed in ANY superhero costume in this scene?  
He's in a LAB and he's about to go shopping.  Yeah, that Goliath outfit sure 
comes in handy for those activities...

Back to my point about comics being a visual medium. Without Hank in a 
uniform of some sort, he's just some blond guy in a lab coat.

> 2) SHOPPING SPREE?  I don't think Jan is likely to spend her time out 
exercising the ol' credit card anytime after the Kang War is raging full 
tilt (between A3 45 and 54).  The woman is team leader at this point, for 
cryin' out loud.  That doesn't help place the early part of IM3 46 before 
or after A:UI, but it's just something that caught my attention.

Assuming, of course, that Hank's telling the truth, yeah, it struck me as 
odd too. BUT bear in mind that Hank and Tony are covering up their actual 
discussion for the sake of Happy and Pepper, so the shopping spree could 
just be an excuse to get the heck out of there and avoid a potentially 
icky situation.

> 3) So, Hank's speech...
> It looks to me like this can't be the Yellowjacket persona imitating 
Goliath during the time he had Goliath imprisoned (A3 36 through A@ 2001).  
Placing IM3 46 before A3 36 is way to problematic, so I'm left to conclude 
that Goliath appears here AFTER Hank Pym is cured of his multiple 
personalities.  He can concentrate on scientific matters and make a joke 
(not to mention make time for fun with Jan, perhaps to work off some anxiety 
over mounting threats).

> Okay, so all this places both IM3 46 in its entirety and A:UI between A@ 
2001/A3 44 and A3 45.

That's fine. Jeph and I had it placed in there already.

> IM3 46 was written to occur in its entirety after A:UI and Kurt Busiek, 
the man responsible for Hank Pym's characterization, said it's entirely 
feasible for Hank to switch back to the Goliath costume if the YJ outfit 
had some bugs to work out or was on the fritz.

As noted in my previous post, though, the same man put a fair amount of 
emphasis on the differences between the two factions of Hank's personality 
and the costume distinction between them.

> I'm inclined to go with the least inference rule.  Bugs in a costume 
involves less plot construction than the Ultron proposal.

Not really, no. It takes longer to figure out from a chronologist POV, 
true, but if you simply are reading the end list, there's nothing extra 
that needs explaining by splitting IM3 #46. Not splitting it, however, 
requires the additional explanation, albiet a small one, of Hank's costume 
change.

> Then there's the issue of Tony leaving Sun Tao in the lab for a number 
of days to allow for the proposed gap in IM3 46.  I'd just think it would 
be characteristic of Tony to shove other matters aside to deal with the 
important issue at hand in IM3 46.

I don't know. Seems to me a live-and-running-amok Ultron is more pressing 
than a guy held in stasis.

> Now, if we can allow a solid month or so between A:UI and IM3 46 to allow: 
for the Sons of Yinsen to dig up the sentient armor and have the pre-
programming kick in and be mistaken for Yinsen (IM3 47-FB #1 beginning); for 
the Sons (without Sun Tao) to immediately retrieve the Ultron head (IM3 
48-FB); for Ultron to download into the sentient armor (BTS); for Ultron to 
spend a week or so having the Sons make a bunch of armors and for a 
suspicious Sun-Tao to be dealt with (IM3 47-- FB #1 end); and for the Sons 
to go public with the Church of Yinsen, active for "a few weeks" by the 
time of IM3 46.

The timing of everything else is not a problem. The only thing that we're 
having any contention over is the first 15 pages of IM3 #46. 

> Then I'd be hopping off the fence into the opposite camp.  The "mess 
with a villain's chronology over a hero's chronology" approach shouldn't 
be a rule of thumb, but each continuity challenge should be examined on 
its own merits, with an attempt to find the easier solution (involving 
less plot implant).

OK, I'm confused now. Are you saying that we should mess with Ultron for 
Hank's sake, or that Ultron is the more significant character and should 
be held to stricter chronological placements? 

Which side of the fence are you on, man?!?  :)

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Hank Pym in IM3 46
Posted by Jeph! on September 19, 2002 at 22:56:50:
In Reply to: Hank Pym in IM3 46
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 19, 2002 at 21:13:49:

Paul, I wish you had posted the ENTIRE conversation between Hank and Tony.  
It's hard to read without the proper context.

Also, you have contrasted it with Hank's behavior in other issues and 
decided that it couldn't be YJ posing as Goliath, and you say it couldn't 
be YJ after A3 #45 ... but you really should contrast it with Hank's 
behavior in A:UI!

I don't have either issue, but Hank has conversations with Iron Man in 
both A:UI and IM3 #46.  We should post them in their entirety to compare -- 
if I remember correctly, Hank is all kinds of jokey with Tony in A:UI.

> 1) Why the heck is Hank dressed in ANY superhero costume in this scene?  
He's in a LAB and he's about to go shopping.  Yeah, that Goliath outfit sure 
comes in handy for those activities...

This could really be argued into an implication that Hank is still Goliath.

If he was YJ at this point, and his suit was broken, necessitating removing 
it, why would he put on a DIFFERENT suit for such mundane activities?

On the other hand, if he was still Goliath, there'd be nothing wrong with 
his suit and no reason to take it off.

I dunno.  It's bizarre, and can't really be used as "evidence" either way.  
But I can INFER all kinds of stuff from it.

> Okay, so all this places both IM3 46 in its entirety and A:UI between A@ 
2001/A3 44 and A3 45.

We knew this already, though, didn't we?

> Is there merit to splitting IM3 46 into two parts for the sake of Hank 
Pym costume consistency.

Of course there is!

> As I've said, I definitely wouldn't place IM3 46 after Hank's big speech 
to Wanda in A3 45.

That's not an issue here.  #45 is the start of the Kang War -- IM3 #46 will 
come between A3 #44 and #45 in any case.

> I'm inclined to go with the least inference rule.  Bugs in a costume 
involves less plot construction than the Ultron proposal.

Not necessarily.  Ultron's plot proposal is fairly simple: we KNOW he has 
a method of preserving his memories.  All it takes is an assumption that 
this method involves uploading memories to a remote site, and downloading 
them into the next available host body.

That's pretty much exactly the same as assuming that Hank's YJ costume had 
bugs to fix, and he put on the Goliath costume while fixing them, rather 
than staying un-costumed.

> Then there's the issue of Tony leaving Sun Tao in the lab for a number 
of days to allow for the proposed gap in IM3 46.  I'd just think it would 
be characteristic of Tony to shove other matters aside to deal with the 
important issue at hand in IM3 46.

I don't believe this is even an ISSUE.  It's SUN-TAO for crying out loud -- 
who cares?  For MCP PURPOSES, nothing we decide will alter his listing.  
Remember what we said about the main characters being much more important 
than the secondary characters?  Sun-Tao is practically a PROP on our stage.

> the Sons of Yinsen to dig up the sentient armor and have the pre-
programming kick in and be mistaken for Yinsen (IM3 47-FB #1 beginning) ... 
for Ultron to spend a week or so having the Sons make a bunch of armors and 
for a suspicious Sun-Tao to be dealt with (IM3 47-- FB #1 end)

Wait -- there's a flashback in #47?  A flashback of the armor awakening?  
Details, please!  This could be evidence, here!

I really need to buy these issues...

> Then I'd be hopping off the fence into the opposite camp.

I'm sorry, this confused me.  Which is the "opposite" camp -- which side 
are you on now?

> The "mess with a villain's chronology over a hero's chronology" approach 
shouldn't be a rule of thumb

True, but "mess with a prop-slash-supporting character over a main character" 
SHOULD be.

> each continuity challenge should be examined on its own merits, with an 
attempt to find the easier solution (involving less plot implant).

I'd say the attempt should be to find the more *aesthetically pleasing* 
solution.  In this case, both solutions have a relatively eaual amount of 
plot implant.  Whose chronology would you rather see UNSULLIED?  Whose 
chronology should be more aesthetically pleasing to read?

> Okay, Sean, let 'er rip...

Yes, Sean, do.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Multi-color response
Posted by Andy Holcombe on September 19, 2002 at 23:56:30:
In Reply to: Multi-color response
posted by Jeph! on September 19, 2002 at 00:05:21:

>Hey board  anyone else out there think our Ultron excuse is logical and 
plausible?  Weigh in!

Since you asked, I'm usually a sucker for mad, scary back-up plans.

			*	*	*

Will the Real Hank Pym stand up please?
Posted by Kevin  on September 20, 2002 at 11:40:44:
In Reply to: Re: Hank Pym in IM3 46
posted by Jeph! on September 19, 2002 at 22:56:50:

> You guys really want to make me earn this one, don't you?  

Sean, all good things in life are worth working for. If you want it that 
bad, you gotta start sweating for it!

LET'S REVIEW IN A NUTSHELL WHAT'S GOING ON HERE:

It seems to me this is going to boil down to a vote about the Hank Pym seen 
in IM #46.  We have three potential choices to make:

1. This is Goliath before he was "switched" by Yellowjacket who began 
masquarading as Goliath. I believe we've ruled out that possibility, so 
that's actually not worth voting for.

2. This is Yellowjacket posing as Goliath.  One thought....Yellowjacket, 
even when posing as Goliath, had a cocky manner about him, but still was 
crafty enough to pose as an intelluctial like Goliath. Remember in the 
"Multitude of Hulks" issues of Avengers, where Yellowjacket was acting 
both scientific, and yet still somewhat witty?  Is this similar behavior 
to the Goliath seen in IM #46?

3. The other possibility is that this is Hank Pym AFTER he becomes "sane" 
in Avengers Annual 2001. This would leave us with two choices. Either he's 
in between choosing which identity he wants to wear, and thus is only 
temporarily donning the "Goliath outfit" till he settles on being 
Yellowjacket, or...his outfit is in the wash, or being worked on, or 
whatever. 

If you pick this route, you've got to pick whichever one of these choices 
you like the best. "In the wash" will work for someone who doesn't really 
care, or just places the Goliath outfit as an artist's error.  

"The outfit is being worked on, so he's temporarily in Goliath uniform" 
makes a tad more sense, because even while he was Yellowjacket posing as 
Goliath, it was indeed the Goliath outfit he had on.  I don't believe 
Goliath would keep a spare Yellowjacket laying around to be picked up right 
after the events of Avengers 2001. Remember Goliath hates Yellowjacket. 

So maybe...Hank Pym is imprisoned by "crazy" Yellowjacket. Yellowjacket 
goes back to Hank's lab, puts on the only costume in the closet: the Goliath 
costume, which he uses to fool everyone. Moving forward, Hank Pym wakes up 
after being "fixed" in Avengers 2001, and has to wear his Goliath outfit 
for a few days till he can reconstruct/recreate a new Yellowjacket outfit.

Or you could just say in his mind he was still inbetween choosing 
Yellowjacket's outfit, or Goliath's outfit....but either way you look at it, 
if this Goliath seen in IM #46 is the Hank Pym after Avengers 2001, then you 
must pick one of these choices about why he's wearing that costume.

Hope I summed this up right, I was getting confused for a minute.  I'm 
still undecided, but I figured I'd share this list of choices...to clarify 
this for anyone...besides, I needed to clarify it for myself.

			*	*	*

the Voting Ballot
Posted by Jeph! on September 20, 2002 at 12:43:13:
In Reply to: Will the Real Hank Pym stand up please?
posted by Kevin  on September 20, 2002 at 11:40:44:

> LET'S REVIEW IN A NUTSHELL WHAT'S GOING ON HERE:

Let me add some corrections here.

From Iron Man's appearances in "Avengers" in his RETRO, '60's suit of armor 
(corresponding to IM3 #41), we know that IM3 #42-up (including 46) take place 
after A3 #41-42.  And since A3 #43-44 take place either on the same day, or 
the day after, A3 #41-42, and IM3 #42 takes place "weeks" after IM3 #41, we 
have a pretty clear conclusion that IM3 #42-up take place AFTER A3 #44.

Now, Hank Pym's duality was cured in A3@01, which fits between A3 #43-44.  So, 
by conlusion, Hank Pym is cured of his duality between IM3 #41-42.

So the Hank Pym in IM3 #46 is DEFINITELY post-cure.

In addition, we've decided that A3 #45 starts the Kang War Proper, and no 
other issues can be fit in-between #45-54.  So, by extension, the Hank Pym 
in IM3 #46 is BEFORE his statements to Wanda about his motivations to become 
YJ in A3 #45.

We've narrowed it down to between A3 #44 and #45.  The question is, is it 
BEFORE or AFTER A:UI?

Here are our choices:

1: This is Goliath, as Goliath.  He has not yet decided to become 
Yellowjacket.  This places pp.1-15 of IM3 #46 before A:UI, and leaves us 
with the implication that Ultron has somehow been active within the sentient 
armor, leading the Sons of Yinsen, since BEFORE his resurrection in A:UI.

(Now, given that there's been a variation on an Ultron program in the armor 
since IM3 #26, this REALLY ISN'T all that hard to swallow.  What IS hard is 
rationalizing off Ultron's COMMENTS in #48.  However, as you can see, we've 
done it.  Also, having these pages occur BEFORE A:UI means we don't need to 
place the month between A:UI and IM3 #46 that Paul wants to have elapse, in 
order to let the Sons grow as an organization.  That "month" could be between 
IM3@2000, where the Sons retreive the armor, and IM3 #46.)

2: This is Hank Pym, who, after his initial change to YJ in the pages of 
A:UI, put the Goliath costume back on for a short period of time, for an 
unknown reason.  Maybe the suit's broken, maybe he just hasn't decided yet.  
This leaves us with a hard-to-swallow implication about Hank Pym as a 
character, for those of us who realy care about Hank's character, but it 
leaves Ultron's continuity straight.  Then again, now Paul wants us to place 
a month between A:UI and IM3 #46  and that's more time we're jamming between 
Kang's declaration of war and his actual practice of it.

There are a few things left to analyze:

- Hank's behavior in A:UI, especially towards Iron Man.  Compare his attitude 
there to that of his conversation with IM in IM3 #46.  If we decide that Hank 
is still in "Goliath" mindset in A:UI, we can probably place IM3 #46 
afterwards.  If we decide that Hank is decidedly in YJ mode in A:UI, and is 
decidedly in Goliath mode in IM3 #46, we might have a very good reason for 
doing this.  If we can deduce from A:UI that Hank's still unsure about his 
YJ choice, we can build a good case for waffling.

- The flashback in IM3 #47.  From Paul's comments, it deals with the salvage 
and activation of the sentient armor, and could come in handy in either 
debunking or enforcing Ultron's comments in #48-FB.

Once we figure this junk out, THEN we can vote.  Although, I think several 
of us here already know how we're voting.

I'm actually going to a comic convention this weekend  I'll keep my eyes 
open for these three issues, and A:UI  it's been hard for me to keep at 
this thing while owning NONE of the issues.  Maybe once I have them I can 
knock this out of the park, one way or another.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

WAIT!! WAIT!! EUREKA!!
Posted by Kevin  on September 20, 2002 at 16:48:03:
In Reply to: the Voting Ballot
posted by Jeph! on September 20, 2002 at 12:43:13:

First, Jeph, thanks for clarifying in your last post all this.  I see now 
what the true vote is about. I thought we were saying that page 1-15 of 
IM#46 were happening BEFORE Hank's getting cured. I got sidetracked.

Let's review Hank's journey, and I'll show you what I've concluded:

Avengers #42=Hank is at the U.N. ruins in Goliath outfit. But it's 
Yellowjacket pretending to be Goliath.

Avengers #43=Yellowjacket switches to his Yellowjacket costume for this 
issue, (an event I forgot, and that's what got me double checking). Wasp 
critizes him for switching saying they needed Goliath's strength.  Near 
the end of the issue, Yellowjacket collapses.

Avengers Annual 2001=Hank, in Yellowjacket costume, is rushed back to the 
Avengers mansion, fading out of existence or something.  They decide to 
take him to the Triune's headquarters in Texas, (I think it's in Texas), 
to get treatment from Jonathan Tremont.  There, he get's fixed. At end of 
the annual, he's up out of bed in a white hospital gown.

Avengers #44=Happens shortly, (I'd say within 24 to 48 hours) after #43.  
This issue shows the wrap ups of all the world conflicts that started in 
A#42.  The 3rd page from the last page, what do we see? HANK IN A GOLIATH 
OUTFIT! Wasp is checking up on the various teams scattered throughout the 
world, and Wanda looks at the monitor and says, "Is that Hank up and about? 
Great!" Or something to that effect, but she's referring to his collapsing 
in A#43.  Hank for his part doesn't say one thing, it's just a cameo, and 
he doesn't have the Goliath mask over his face, but it's him in a Goliath 
outfit.  See: He's come back from the Triune, is taking it easy, and even 
found time to put on the Goliath outfit. He didn't immediately turn to the 
Yellowjacket outfit!  So even Kurt Busiek is saying "Look, he's not decided 
which outfit to choose yet".

Next is IM#46.  He's still in the Goliath outfit.

Then comes Avengers: Ultron Imperative. Hank chooses Yellowjacket's outfit. 
He just doesn't bother to explain it to anyone yet.

Then comes Avengers #45. In this issue, Hank explains his choice to Wanda.

Then, I suppose, we'll have to have IM#46-48, last half.  

And that's how I vote. I see this proof that Hank wears the Goliath outfit 
for a brief time before his speech to Wanda in A#45.  If what we were 
wondering, (and I know some of us were) whether Hank would were the Goliath 
outfit after being cured in the Annual, you have proof from Kurt himself. 
But I wouldn't go the route of saying "He's Goliath in A#44, Yellowjacket 
in #45, back to Goliath in IM #46 page 1-15, then Yellowjacket in Avengers 
#45. That's a bit too much back and forth between costumes after being 
cured.

So I guess a split in the issue is a wise thing in that regard.  Hope this 
helps.

			*	*	*

Thank you (plus, more evidence from A:UI)
Posted by SKleefeld on September 20, 2002 at 19:26:44:
In Reply to: WAIT!! WAIT!! EUREKA!!
posted by Kevin  on September 20, 2002 at 16:48:03:

> Avengers #44=Happens shortly, (I'd say within 24 to 48 hours) after #43.  
This issue shows the wrap ups of all the world conflicts that started in 
A#42.  The 3rd page from the last page, what do we see? HANK IN A GOLIATH 
OUTFIT! Wasp is checking up on the various teams scattered throughout the 
world, and Wanda looks at the monitor and says, "Is that Hank up and about? 
Great!" Or something to that effect, but she's referring to his collapsing 
in A#43.  Hank for his part doesn't say one thing, it's just a cameo, and he 
doesn't have the Goliath mask over his face, but it's him in a Goliath outfit. 
See: He's come back from the Triune, is taking it easy, and even found time 
to put on the Goliath outfit. He didn't immediately turn to the Yellowjacket 
outfit!  So even Kurt Busiek is saying "Look, he's not decided which outfit 
to choose yet".

Thank you, Kevin, for independant verification of my original arguement to 
Jeph! We have nearly indisputable proof that Hank reverts immediately to the 
Goliath costume after he's "healed" and only later decides to settle on 
Yellowjacket.

See, Paul, it's not just me!  :)

> And that's how I vote. I see this proof that Hank wears the Goliath outfit 
for a brief time before his speech to Wanda in A#45.  If what we were 
wondering, (and I know some of us were) whether Hank would were the Goliath 
outfit after being cured in the Annual, you have proof from Kurt himself. 
But I wouldn't go the route of saying "He's Goliath in A#44, Yellowjacket 
in #45, back to Goliath in IM #46 page 1-15, then Yellowjacket in Avengers 
#45. That's a bit too much back and forth between costumes after being cured.

Ha ha! Exactly my point this entire time! The flip-flopping doesn't make 
sense. And since Hank's the biggest player of all the affected characters, 
he's the one we should be working most heavily for.

> So I guess a split in the issue is a wise thing in that regard.  Hope this 
helps.

Thanks again, Kev, for backing up my own conclusions!

I'd also like to add one of the few Yellowjacket lines from A:UI...

Tony: I appreciate your help with this old armor, Hank. It's a good thing I 
had a spare in storage here... I had the new suit in pieces when the call 
came in, tinkering with it. I'm afraid Iron Man is very much a work in 
progress these days.

Yellowjacket: And with good reason, Tony -- You need state-of-the-art. So 
what's my excuse? Ant-Man, Giant-Man, Goliath, now Yellowjacket... one more 
identity and I could be my own basketball team!

At which point they're interrupted by Cap. But I would like to point out 
that Goliath isn't much the kidder/flippant personality that would spout 
off a basketball joke like that.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Thank you (plus, more evidence from A:UI)
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 20, 2002 at 21:20:57:
In Reply to: Thank you (plus, more evidence from A:UI)
posted by SKleefeld on September 20, 2002 at 19:26:44:

> Yellowjacket lines from A:UI...

> Tony: I appreciate your help with this old armor, Hank. It's a good 
thing I had a spare in storage here... I had the new suit in pieces when 
the call came in, tinkering with it. I'm afraid Iron Man is very much a 
work in progress these days.

> Yellowjacket: And with good reason, Tony -- You need state-of-the-art. 
So what's my excuse? Ant-Man, Giant-Man, Goliath, now Yellowjacket... one 
more identity and I could be my own basketball team!

> At which point they're interrupted by Cap. But I would like to point out 
that Goliath isn't much the kidder/flippant personality that would spout 
off a basketball joke like that.

Are we to read from this that Hank is really asking, "What's my excuse for 
being a work in progress?" or "What's my excuse for wearing different 
costumes lately?"

Funny how we take the same pieces of evidence to come to the opposite 
conclusions.  I think that quote from Hank supports MY view.  In A:UI Hank 
is flippant about his different identities, seemingly comfortable with 
flip-flopping, at least for the time being.  That is, until he makes the 
resolution to *be* YJ consistently for reason he outlined quite a bit more 
seriously with Wanda in A3 45 ("...find out if I'm truly cured.").  During 
that interim period of flip-flopping I have no problem with Hank adopting 
whatever costume is necessary, as I feel he did in IM3 46.

Remember that Hank doesn't resolve to be YJ in A:UI.  He is determined simply 
to be "the best Hank Pym we can be."  And that is an integrated, amalgamated 
personality incorporating the intelligence and courage, the carefulness and 
impetuousness he really always had.

This is reinforced by his appearance AS GOLIATH after A:UI in A3 44.  Who 
says two appearances as Goliath are somehow "too many?"  Maybe that YJ 
appearance in A:UI was the exception, not the rule, in the span of time 
between A@ 2000/1 and A3 45.  And if that is the case, it's no wonder Wanda 
brought the topic up as late as A3 45 -- in all the times she'd seen him 
since A@ 2000/1, he could have been YJ only once (A:UI).  All other times 
(like both A3 44 and IM3 46) he was dressed as Goliath.  (Note: Wanda saw 
him as Goliath in A3 44, not in IM3 46, but my point is that there could 
have been many BTS instances of Hank as Goliath during this time.  It as 
easy to believe this as his being YJ most of that time.)

Do I disregard or disrespect Hank Pym's history in suggesting that all of 
IM3 46 take place after A:UI.  Far from it.  I've been a big fan of Pym's 
since the late '60s.  It's just hard for me not to take IM3 46-48 at face 
value, complete with the simpler explanation for Ultron as shown in the 
flashbacks in IM 47 and 48.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Correction Fever!
Posted by Jeph! on September 21, 2002 at 00:03:22:
In Reply to: Re: Thank you (plus, more evidence from A:UI)
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 20, 2002 at 21:20:57:

> This is reinforced by his appearance AS GOLIATH after A:UI in A3 44.

Uhm ... no.  Sorry.  A:UI takes place AFTER A3 #44 -- it's clearly established 
in in-book references in A:UI that the uprisings in A3 #43-44 have been put 
down.

If you're using Hank's appearance, as Goliath, in A3 #44 as "evidence" that 
he could appear as Goliath in IM3 #46, the two are utterly different animals.

A3 #44 occurs AFTER Hank's convalescence and BEFORE his first sighting as YJ, 
thus showing that in that post-convelescence, pre-decision period, Hank fell 
back on the Golioath outfit.  This is one of the big reasons I want to slot 
Hank's IM3 #46 appearance in there -- because I have PROOF from A3 #44 that 
in that period of change for him, he WASN'T waffling -- he used Goliath as a 
fallback.

> It's just hard for me not to take IM3 46-48 at face value, complete with 
the simpler explanation for Ultron as shown in the flashbacks in IM 47 and 
48.

Actually, I read that flashback in Im3 #48 as all kinds of confusing ... it 
sure looked to me like the sentient armor's eyes lit up AS IT WAS BEING 
TURNED ON FOR THE FIRST TIME.  And as I've maintained, why would the Sons 
wait til issue #46 to turn on the armor, if they've had it ever since #33?  
We've spent all kinds of time talking about motivations -- well, the flashback 
as told by Ultron doesn't match the motivation of the Sons of Yinsen!!

I think that's a VERY important point -- that Ultron's story doesn't mesh 
with what we know the Sons would do.  It calls portions of his story into 
question!

I'll see if I can find a copy of #47 this weekend, to check out the FB 
therein.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

IM #47 Flashback
Posted by SKleefeld on September 21, 2002 at 11:14:28:
In Reply to: Correction Fever!
posted by Jeph! on September 21, 2002 at 00:03:22:

OK, taking a look at the flashback in IM3 #47, it basically covers Ultron's 
rise to power in the Sons of Yinsen.

It starts almost immediately after IM@2000 showing the Sons of Yinsen actually 
retrieving the sentient armor from the gravesite. The Sons "quickly began the 
implementation process" to place Yinsen's mind in the sentient armor. Sun-Tao 
continues, "But alas, my exuberance was not to last -- for I soon discovered 
something was amiss. Yinsen was different from the man who inspired me those 
many years ago. He was more arrogant, more aggressive. The orders he gave us 
grew stranger each day." The art also shows a change from the red/gold armor 
that was actually the sentient Iron Man to the gold/black armor that was 
Ultron.

Now here's how I read this so far (we're only 1/4 of the way through the 
flashback, BTW): The SoY picked up the sentient armor at the end of IM@2000 
and began working on it as soon as they got it on board and hooked up. 
Ultron was firmly established as the new mind behind the armor within days 
of it's activation (remember his line from IM3 #48: "When they reactivated 
the armor in their ridiculous efforts to resurrect their mentor, it was 
child's play to establish contact and ensconse myself within my newfound 
host.") and began screwing around with all his evilness.

Back to the IM3 #47 flashback, Sun-Tao then says one of Ultron's orders was 
the mass production of IM armor "when our own sacred armors were still 
perfectly adequate." Going back farther to IM3 #32, we see that the SoY's 
"sacred armors" were sort of half-versions of the classic IM armor with some 
added robes/cloaks. The facemasks and chest plates were there, but their arms 
and legs were bare. Yet the armors shown in the IM3 #48 flashback -- which 
we've agreed occurs shortly after A:UI -- are clearly shown to be nearly 
exact replicas of the IM armor. 

Which means, if you're able to follow all of this, that Ultron was not only 
in power by the IM3 #48 flashback, but he had been in power long enough to 
produce several IM armors for the SoY. Which FURTHER means he was either in 
power well before A:UI or there's a substantially longer gap bewteen A:UI 
and IM3 #48 FB than any of us have even suggested. 

The rest of the IM3 #47 flashback talks about Sun-Tao's disapproval and 
capture, after which Ultron slapped some mind-control whammy on him and sent 
him off to steal the SKIN technology. (Which brings well into IM3 #46.)

So the question that all this brings about boils down to: when EXACTLY did 
the Sons of Yinsen activate the sentient armor? If it's at any point prior 
to A:UI -- which I'm led to believe it is, judging by the SoY armors -- then 
we're led to the conclusion that Ultron was, in fact, running two campaigns 
simultaneously and splitting IM3 #46 makes sense relative to BOTH Hank's and 
Ultron's chronologies.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Correction Fever!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 21, 2002 at 17:31:28:
In Reply to: Correction Fever!
posted by Jeph! on September 21, 2002 at 00:03:22:

> > This is reinforced by his appearance AS GOLIATH after A:UI in A3 44.

> Uhm ... no.  Sorry.  A:UI takes place AFTER A3 #44 -- it's clearly 
established in in-book references in A:UI that the uprisings in A3 #43-44 
have been put down.

Uhm...no.  Sorry backatcha, Jeph.  Toward the end of A3 43, Hank collapses.  
He's rushed in on a gurney at the beginning of A:UI and by the end of that 
story, he integrates his personalities and is recovering.  His next appearance 
is toward the end of A3 44, as Goliath.  (A:UI and a good chunk, but not all, 
of A3 44 take place simultaneously.)

> A3 #44 occurs AFTER Hank's convalescence and BEFORE his first sighting as 
YJ, thus showing that in that post-convelescence, pre-decision period, Hank 
fell back on the Golioath outfit.

Huh?  I thought you noted above that A:UI was after A3 44, but here you're 
stating, correctly, that A3 44 is after A:UI.  ??

But that's a bit moot anyway, see my next post...

--Paul

			*	*	*

Correct myself!  I'm getting loopy...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 21, 2002 at 18:02:56:
In Reply to: Correction Fever!
posted by Jeph! on September 21, 2002 at 00:03:22:

> > This is reinforced by his appearance AS GOLIATH after A:UI in A3 44.

> Uhm ... no.  Sorry.  A:UI takes place AFTER A3 #44 -- it's clearly 
established in in-book references in A:UI that the uprisings in A3 #43-44 
have been put down.

Ignore that last message I sent about this.  Now I'm confusing A@ 2001 with 
A:UI!  All this analysis is clouding my brain.  Maybe Ultron downloaded 
himself into it...

--Paul

			*	*	*

I'd go for...
Posted by Antonio Gavio on September 20, 2002 at 16:54:52:
In Reply to: the Voting Ballot
posted by Jeph! on September 20, 2002 at 12:43:13:

> > LET'S REVIEW IN A NUTSHELL WHAT'S GOING ON HERE:

> Let me add some corrections here.

> From Iron Man's appearances in "Avengers" in his RETRO, '60's suit of 
armor (corresponding to IM3 #41), we know that IM3 #42-up (including 46) 
take place after A3 #41-42.  And since A3 #43-44 take place either on the 
same day, or the day after, A3 #41-42, and IM3 #42 takes place "weeks" after 
IM3 #41, we have a pretty clear conclusion that IM3 #42-up take place AFTER 
A3 #44.

> Now, Hank Pym's duality was cured in A3@01, which fits between A3 #43-44.  
So, by conlusion, Hank Pym is cured of his duality between IM3 #41-42.

> So the Hank Pym in IM3 #46 is DEFINITELY post-cure.

> In addition, we've decided that A3 #45 starts the Kang War Proper, and no 
other issues can be fit in-between #45-54.  So, by extension, the Hank Pym 
in IM3 #46 is BEFORE his statements to Wanda about his motivations to become 
YJ in A3 #45.

> We've narrowed it down to between A3 #44 and #45.  The question is, is it 
BEFORE or AFTER A:UI?

> Here are our choices:

> 1: This is Goliath, as Goliath.  He has not yet decided to become 
Yellowjacket.  This places pp.1-15 of IM3 #46 before A:UI, and leaves us 
with the implication that Ultron has somehow been active within the sentient 
armor, leading the Sons of Yinsen, since BEFORE his resurrection in A:UI.

> (Now, given that there's been a variation on an Ultron program in the armor 
since IM3 #26, this REALLY ISN'T all that hard to swallow.  What IS hard is 
rationalizing off Ultron's COMMENTS in #48.  However, as you can see, we've 
done it.  Also, having these pages occur BEFORE A:UI means we don't need to 
place the month between A:UI and IM3 #46 that Paul wants to have elapse, in 
order to let the Sons grow as an organization.  That "month" could be between 
IM3@2000, where the Sons retreive the armor, and IM3 #46.)

I'd go for this option:

> 2: This is Hank Pym, who, after his initial change to YJ in the pages of 
A:UI, put the Goliath costume back on for a short period of time, for an 
unknown reason.  Maybe the suit's broken, maybe he just hasn't decided yet.  
This leaves us with a hard-to-swallow implication about Hank Pym as a 
character, for those of us who realy care about Hank's character,

I don't think it should be that hard to swallow since this is the Hank Pym 
that has come to terms with every aspect of his personality. He is three 
persons in one now, regardless of the costume he is wearing. He can now 
act as his Yellowjacket persona one minute and as his Goliath one the next, 
without this meaning he is getting unstable again; rather, he is confortable 
with it because he is cured. Seeing him with his Goliath costume in IM 46 
actually reinforces that idea; he doesn't have any problem being Goliath 
while, let's say, he works on touch ups for his Yellowjacket suit. This may 
also help to understand why Wanda takes until A3 45 to comment on it, maybe 
she saw him leaving Avengers Mansion with his Goliath costume to meet Tony 
Stark in IM 46 and then she wasn't sure wich costume Hank was going to use. 

>but it leaves Ultron's continuity straight.  Then again, now Paul wants us 
to place a month between A:UI and IM3 #46  and that's more time we're 
jamming between Kang's declaration of war and his actual practice of it.

Kang is seen in the 40th century in A3 45, so it's not like he needs to be 
back at exactly wathever time he left the 21st century to go to the 40th, he 
might just come back a few days later and so his perception of the time 
passed between his declaration of war and his actual practice of it might 
be shorter than if he had stayed the whole time in the 21st century.

			*	*	*

Re: I'd go for...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 20, 2002 at 21:24:52:
In Reply to: I'd go for...
posted by Antonio Gavio on September 20, 2002 at 16:54:52:

> I don't think it should be that hard to swallow since this is the Hank 
Pym that has come to terms with every aspect of his personality. He is three 
persons in one now, regardless of the costume he is wearing. He can now act 
as his Yellowjacket persona one minute and as his Goliath one the next, 
without this meaning he is getting unstable again; rather, he is confortable 
with it because he is cured. Seeing him with his Goliath costume in IM 46 
actually reinforces that idea; he doesn't have any problem being Goliath 
while, let's say, he works on touch ups for his Yellowjacket suit. This may 
also help to understand why Wanda takes until A3 45 to comment on it, maybe 
she saw him leaving Avengers Mansion with his Goliath costume to meet Tony 
Stark in IM 46 and then she wasn't sure wich costume Hank was going to use. 

Yes!  This articulates my thoughts.  Thanks, Antonio.

>  
> >but it leaves Ultron's continuity straight.  Then again, now Paul wants 
us to place a month between A:UI and IM3 #46  and that's more time we're 
jamming between Kang's declaration of war and his actual practice of it.

> Kang is seen in the 40th century in A3 45, so it's not like he needs to be 
back at exactly wathever time he left the 21st century to go to the 40th, he 
might just come back a few days later and so his perception of the time 
passed between his declaration of war and his actual practice of it might be 
shorter than if he had stayed the whole time in the 21st century.

Plus...the Avengers are noted as being out dealing with Ultron (without Tony) 
in IM3 48, so who says nothing's going on in the month between A3 44 and 45?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Correction
Posted by Jeph! on September 20, 2002 at 23:54:34:
In Reply to: Re: I'd go for...
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 20, 2002 at 21:24:52:

> ...the Avengers are noted as being out dealing with Ultron (without Tony) 
in IM3 48, so who says nothing's going on in the month between A3 44 and 45?

You meant "Kang", right?  The Avengers are out dealing with Kang during 
IM3 #48.

    -Jeph!
read that issue again today

			*	*	*

Re: Infinity ... and Beyond?
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 20, 2002 at 11:38:02:
In Reply to: Infinity ... and Beyond?
posted by Jeph! on September 19, 2002 at 13:12:27:

> Cap #50 was pretty clearly SUPPOSED to be canon when it was published -- 
the Marvel characters cameoing corresponded fairly well to the mainstream MU 
at the time -- Iron Man in ugly armor, Red Skull and Absorbing Man in jail, 
etc etc.  

I agree - I get the general impression that it was meant to be the lead-in 
to the new series, but got dumped in favour of the War on Terrorism tie-in.  
(Say, maybe they should have a little logo on the front cover marking all 
these books as "War On Terrorism crossover issues.")

Regarding Hank's costume in Iron Man: I realise there's a reluctance to 
dismiss something as an error unless that's unavoidable, but given the sheer 
difficulty people are having in squaring the circle, wouldn't it be simpler 
just to write off Hank's costume as either an art error or a mere topical 
reference to his costume in contemporary issues of Avengers?

It seems that we're going through incredible logical hoops here to twist 
stories in pretzels so as to maintain the canoncity of an error.

			*	*	*

Partial Concession!!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 21, 2002 at 18:53:54:
In Reply to: Iron Man #46-48 -- let's solve this thing.  (ATTN Kang War team!)
posted by Jeph! on September 14, 2002 at 13:22:22:

I CONCEDE, at least about the theory of two incarnations of Ultron.  All 
the evidence points in that direction.  Seans thorough documentation of 
what is actually in the comics led me to reach that same conclusion.  I just 
wish the writers made this more obvious!

Sean, Im trying to put a chronology of events together based on previous 
postings.  Do I have this right?

1) The last page of IM@ 2000 takes place "days" after the rest of the story.  
The Sons of Yinsen approach the burial site of the sentient armor.

2) The beginning of the flashback in IM3 47 picks up from there, as the Sons 
take the armor.  They immediately try to resurrect it as Yinsen and the armor 
turns on.  It's the incarnation of Ultron Mark XII that Jocasta had put into 
the armor.  Some time passes as this Ultron forces the Sons to create new 
armors for themselves and he changes the appearance of the sentient armor.  
Ultron captures the suspicious Sun Tao and strips his mind.  Then he starts 
the Church of Yinsenism, *at least* "a few weeks" before the beginning of IM3 
46.

3) Some time after this, Hank Pym is cured in A@ 2000/1.

4) Hank appears as Goliath in A3 44 later the same day of A@ 2000/1.

5) Sun Tao is outfitted in a replica armor and is sent to fight Iron Man 
while Ultron and the other Sons steal Starks SKIN technology in the first 
15 pages of IM3 46.  Sun Tao is defeated and Stark discovers that his SKIN 
technology has been stolen.  Hank Pym appears as Goliath here, shortly after 
A3 44.

6) Before Tony can deal with the issue of his stolen technology, he is 
called away to deal with a threat in A:UI.  Another incarnation of Ultron 
is resurrected by Alkhema in A:UI (and Hank Pym has resumed use of the YJ 
costume).  This incarnation loses its head, which is retrieved by Antigone.  
Ultron Mark 12 detects the activation of this Ultron behind the scenes.

7) Immediately after this, the Sons, in their revised armor, pick up the 
head from Antigone in the flashback in IM3 48 and the Jocasta Ultron 
incorporates the essence of Alkhema's Ultron behind the scenes.

6) Iron Man checks up on Sun Tao, still on a lab table, in IM3 46, page 16.  
Then Iron Man faces the Sons and Ultron through IM3 48.

Is this right?  The only problems I would have with this are: 1) Iron Man 
appearing in classic armor in A:UI between appearances in the transitional 
armor in IM3 46; 2) too much time in the gap in IM3 46.  It seems to me 
that if your SKIN technology were stolen, youd only let an immediate 
threat (like A:UI) stand in your way to get to the bottom of things.  (Its 
not a minor character Sun Tao argument; its a major character motivation 
argument.)

In any event, if we plot this out event after event (with citations) in a 
way that makes logical sense we can translate this dilemma into a usable 
final document and come to consensus.

I can see both interpretations of Hank Pym's chronology working.  
Goliath-YJ-Goliath-YJ or just Goliath-YJ.  Let's see which one makes most 
sense in the global scheme of plotlines laid out as above.

Thanks, Sean, for forcing me to carefully review the whole Ultron thing.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Partial Credit!
Posted by Jeph! on September 21, 2002 at 21:31:56:
In Reply to: Partial Concession!!
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 21, 2002 at 18:53:54:

Wow, Paul.  Way to go!  As they say, it takes a tough man to make a tender 
chicken.

As you knew I would, I heartily agree with your layout of events.  I have 
no corrections to make -- it all looks good.

I just want to make a few notations to your "problems" section, below:

> The only problems I would have with this are: 1) Iron Man appearing in 
classic armor in A:UI between appearances in the transitional armor in IM3 
46

This is actually covered in A:UI itself.  Iron Man's dialogue says that he 
had the Iron Man suit in pieces when the Ultron alert came in.  We can 
clearly see the torso of his ugly suit resting on the workbench as he 
modifies his classic armor -- so we know that Iron Man WAS in his "ugly 
suit" phase, wherever we place A:UI.

> 2) too much time in the gap in IM3 46.

Well, you yourself said that A:UI takes only a day and a night, right?  
That's not a lot.

The problem comes because we ALSO want to place Cap #45-48 in that gap.  
Those issues take a week, and THAT'S where the problem lies -- but it's a 
separate issue, and we haven't argued it yet.  Right now, we're just seeing 
if the events of *A:UI* can fit in this gap.

> It seems to me that if your SKIN technology were stolen, youd only let 
an immediate threat (like A:UI) stand in your way to get to the bottom of 
things.

And this leads me to another point about A:UI -- namely, why WAS the ugly 
Iron Man suit in pieces in that issue?  Well, it strikes me that with all 
of Tony's SKIN tech stolen, the only remaining samples he'd have would be 
WITHIN THE UGLY SUIT!  So, I'd guess that the partial disassembling of his 
suit WAS part of Tony's process of "getting to the bottom of things".

Does that make it easier to place A:UI after the SKIN's theft, if you look 
at it that way?

> I can see both interpretations of Hank Pym's chronology working.  
Goliath-YJ-Goliath-YJ or just Goliath-YJ.  Let's see which one makes most 
sense in the global scheme of plotlines laid out as above.

Hope that helps.

By the way, to tackle the Cap #45-48 thing, here's Sean's and my rationale 
for placing them after A:UI.

(Cap #45-48 all contain flashbacks that run concurrently, and lead straight 
into the main story in Cap #45-48.  The whole thing runs for a week 
uninterrupted.)

We know that in A:UI, Iron Man switches his ugly suit for his classic suit.  
We never see him switch back, though.

In Cap #45-FB, we see Iron Man in his classic suit.  However, in Cap #46-FB, 
we see him back in his ugly suit.

Since there are no other occasions where IM transfers directly from his 
classic suit to his ugly suit, we saw this as best placed directly after 
A:UI.

Now, while the events in those issues take place over a week FOR CAP, I 
don't know what role Iron Man plays.  If he's not a major player, we could 
conceivably extract him.

Is it possible, Paul, for IM to cameo in Cap #45-FB and #46-FB (or perhaps, 
JUST #45-FB), then go directly off and have his adventure in IM3 #46-48, 
THEN return for the wrap-up of Cap's storyline?  This would fulfill your 
notion that Hank would get back to the SKIN's theft at his earliest 
convenience.

If A:UI takes place the day after (or the day OF) IM3 #46 pp.1-15, and Cap 
#45-46-FBs take place the day after A:UI, that would only take IM away from 
the SKIN theft for 48 hours or so.

Then, behind the scenes in Cap #47-48-FBs through Cap #45-48, the rest of 
the Avengers could go off and fight Kang, in the unseen battle referenced 
in IM3 #48.  Then IM's adventure could wrap up in time for him (and the 
Avengers) to return for Bucky's wake in Cap #48.

So:

IM3 #46 pp.1-15
A:UI
CA3 #45-FB
CA3 #46-FB
IM3 #46 pp.16-22
IM3 #47
(rest of Avengers, minus Cap and IM, fight Kang's forces somewhere)
IM3 #48
CA3 #47-FB
CA3 #48-FB
CA3 #45-48

...the whole thing above, covering nine days.

It's an idea -- let me know, Paul.  It might help a lot of your apprehension 
here.

> Thanks, Sean, for forcing me to carefully review the whole Ultron thing.

Hey, who started this thread?  ;)

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Partial Credit!
Posted by SKleefeld on September 22, 2002 at 10:12:58:
In Reply to: Partial Credit!
posted by Jeph! on September 21, 2002 at 21:31:56:

Hey, Paul, glad to see you're on the "right" side of the fence now!  :)

> > The only problems I would have with this are: 1) Iron Man appearing in 
classic armor in A:UI between appearances in the transitional armor in IM3 
46

> This is actually covered in A:UI itself.  Iron Man's dialogue says that he 
had the Iron Man suit in pieces when the Ultron alert came in.  We can clearly 
see the torso of his ugly suit resting on the workbench as he modifies his 
classic armor -- so we know that Iron Man WAS in his "ugly suit" phase, 
wherever we place A:UI.

And Tony's dialogue from that piece is in one of my earlier posts.

> And this leads me to another point about A:UI -- namely, why WAS the ugly 
Iron Man suit in pieces in that issue?  Well, it strikes me that with all of 
Tony's SKIN tech stolen, the only remaining samples he'd have would be WITHIN 
THE UGLY SUIT!  So, I'd guess that the partial disassembling of his suit WAS 
part of Tony's process of "getting to the bottom of things".

> Does that make it easier to place A:UI after the SKIN's theft, if you look 
at it that way?

Why, yes! Yes, it does! Good catch, Jeph!

> By the way, to tackle the Cap #45-48 thing, here's Sean's and my rationale 
for placing them after A:UI.

> (Cap #45-48 all contain flashbacks that run concurrently, and lead straight 
into the main story in Cap #45-48.  The whole thing runs for a week 
uninterrupted.)

Uninterrupted for Cap. Iron Man clearly has enough time to finish putting 
together his armor.

> We know that in A:UI, Iron Man switches his ugly suit for his classic suit.  
We never see him switch back, though.

> In Cap #45-FB, we see Iron Man in his classic suit.  However, in Cap #46-FB, 
we see him back in his ugly suit.

> Since there are no other occasions where IM transfers directly from his 
classic suit to his ugly suit, we saw this as best placed directly after 
A:UI.

> Now, while the events in those issues take place over a week FOR CAP, I 
don't know what role Iron Man plays.  If he's not a major player, we could 
conceivably extract him.

Easily done, since IM is not in the flashbacks for CA3 #47-48.

> Is it possible, Paul, for IM to cameo in Cap #45-FB and #46-FB (or perhaps, 
JUST #45-FB), then go directly off and have his adventure in IM3 #46-48, THEN 
return for the wrap-up of Cap's storyline?  This would fulfill your notion 
that Hank would get back to the SKIN's theft at his earliest convenience.

Makes sense to me.

> IM3 #46 pp.1-15
> A:UI
> CA3 #45-FB
> CA3 #46-FB
> IM3 #46 pp.16-22
> IM3 #47
> (rest of Avengers, minus Cap and IM, fight Kang's forces somewhere)
> IM3 #48
> CA3 #47-FB
> CA3 #48-FB
> CA3 #45-48

I like it. I think that works really elegantly. (Well, as elegantly as we 
can possibly get with all the mess we're dealing with.)

> > Thanks, Sean, for forcing me to carefully review the whole Ultron thing.

My pleasure, Paul. It's not often I get to examine comic book challenges 
like this. And it's even less often when I get to sort through it with 
intelligent, well-spoken individuals.

> Hey, who started this thread?  ;)

Well, technically, I was the first one to bring up the Kang War in any 
capacity!  :)

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Concession and Conclusion!!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 22, 2002 at 17:21:14:
In Reply to: Re: Partial Credit!
posted by SKleefeld on September 22, 2002 at 10:12:58:

Believe it or not, I was just about to check this same theory out before I 
checked the post board.  Great minds and all  ;)

Here's how to minimize the time gap between pages 15 and 16 of IM3 46...

IM3 48FB (page 6, panel 4): Ultron Mark 12, planning to steal Starks SKIN 
technology, has the mind-controlled Sun Tao outfitted in a replica of the 
sentient armor and sends him to attack Askew Electronics as a diversion.

IM3 46 pg. 1-15: Hank Pym, as Goliath, tells Tony that his artificial heart 
is evolving.  Tony learns about the Church of Yinsen, established a few 
weeks earlier.  Iron Man is alerted to the  attack at Askew and battles a 
mind-controlled Sun Tao, defeats him, and learns that the SKIN technology has 
been stolen from Askew.  He suspects that the armor Sun Tao wears is not the 
original sentient armor.  Right after this, Tony doffs the transitional armor, 
puts on the classic armor and takes the transitional armor to Avengers Mansion 
to do some testing behind the scenes.  Meanwhile, Hank shops with Jan behind 
the scenes.

CA3 45FB #1 (6 days before CA3 45-48): Hate Monger, posing as Adam Hauser, 
approaches a group of workers on strike.

A:UI: Night comes.  Behind the scenes, Hank resumes his Yellowjacket identity 
after returning from shopping.  Tony, in classic armor, is still testing 
(tinkering with) the transitional armor, which is in pieces, when hes 
called upon to join the rest of the Avengers to deal with Alkhema.  The 
Avengers discover they have twenty hours to solve a mystery.  Iron Man gets 
Hawkeye out of prison to deal with Alkhema and very early the next morning, 
the Avengers head to Greece and Egypt, arriving at dawn local time.  In 
Egypt, the Avengers battle Alkhema and the Ultron she inadvertently creates.  
The confrontation ends with an explosion, the Avengers depart, and Antigone 
fetches the Ultron head from the rubble.

IM3 48FB (page 4, panel 6): Immediately after this, Ultron Mark 12 dispatches 
the Sons of Yinsen to fetch the Ultron head from Antigone.  Ultron downloads 
the head behind the scenes.

CA3 45--FB #2 (5 days and 17 hours before CA3 45-48): Ill say its the 
afternoon of the day the Avengers return from the battle with Alkhema.  Nick 
Fury has resumed his job as Director of SHIELD.  He visits Cap, who is back 
at Avengers Mansion training.  Cap and Sharon Carter get put on the case to 
take the Helicarrier back from the Red Skull, whos had it for a few months.

CA3 45FB #2 (5 days and 12 hours before CA3 45-48): Five hours later, it is 
night.  Hate Monger, as Adam Hauser, influences the strikers to kill Mexican 
travelers in Louisiana.

CA3 45--FB #3 (5 days and 10 hours before CA3 45-48): Two hours after that, 
Iron Man, still in classic armor, is at Avengers Mansion and locates the 
Helicarrier for Cap and Sharon.

CA3 45FB #4 (5 days and 5 hours before CA3 45-48): Five hours after that, 
under the light of a full moon, the Hate Monger rendezvouses with Red Skull 
in Louisiana.  Behind the scenes, Tony has finished his work on the 
transitional armor and re-dons it to assist Cap in the Helicarrier case.

CA3 46--FB #1 (4 days, 18 hours before CA3 45-48): Eleven hours after that 
(now two days after IM3 46 pg. 15), Iron Man, in transitional armor, is back 
at Avengers Mansion assisting Cap as Cap finds the Helicarrier in the depths 
of the Gulf of Mexico.

CA3 46FB #2 (4 days, 17 hours before CA3 45-48): One hour later, Nick Fury 
encounters Hauser.

CA3 46FB #3 (4 days, 15 hours before CA3 45-48): Two hours after that, Cap 
boards the Helicarrier while Iron Man monitors from Avengers Mansion.  
Apparently, Cap wanders the decks for eighteen (!!) hours before the 
Helicarrier surfaces, and Cap encounters the Skull, who ejects Cap from the 
Helicarrier.

CA3 47FB #1-3 (3 days, 21 hours before CA3 45-48): Cap is rescued from his 
plummet by Sharon, but the Skull blasts their hovercar while Iron Man monitors 
from Avengers Mansion.  Hauser spreads hate in Louisiana.  Cap and Sharon are 
rescued by Namor, who was alerted by Iron Man.  Cap convinces Namor to join 
them.

CA3 47--FB #4 (3 days, 16 hours, 4 minutes before CA3 45-48): Five hours 
later, Hauser and the Skull prepare to launch their insidious plan, while 
Nick Fury is helpless to stop them.

CA3 47FB #5 (3 days, 15 hours, 41 minutes before CA3 45-48): 23 minutes 
later, Cap, Sharon and Namor have infiltrated the Helicarrier and attack 
the Skull.  The identity of the Hate Monger is revealed.

CA3 48FB #1 (3 days, 14 hours, 50 minutes before CA3 45-48): About an hour 
later, Cap, Sharon and Namor are prisoners of the Skull and Hate Monger.  
They escape, battle the bad guys, save the day, and reclaim the Helicarrier, 
almost three days before CA3 45-48.  Cap disappears with a transport to go 
on a special mission.

IM3 46 pg. 16-22:  Right after this, Iron Man, satisfied that his obligation 
to Cap has been met now that the day is saved, goes to check on Sun-Tao at 
Stark Enterprises.  According to my calculations, it has been three days 
since IM3 46 pg. 1-15.  Tony confirms that Sun Tao is mind-controlled and 
that the armor is a reproduction of the sentient armor.  After studying and 
adapting the SKIN technology for three days, Ultron, as Yinsen, goes with 
the Sons of Yinsen come to retrieve Sun Tao and confront Iron Man.

IM3 47: Iron Man battles the Sons while Sun Tao snaps out of it.  The Sons 
seize Sun Tao, then Jocasta comes back and helps Iron Man take the battle 
to the Sons. Ultron reveals himself.

IM3 48: Ultron tells Iron Man the story weve been debating.  Ultron leaves 
to launch his grand scheme, leaving the Sons to dispatch Sun Tao and Iron 
Man.  Our heroes defeat the Sons and return to Stark Enterprises.  Tony 
tries to reach the Avengers for help, but theyre off dealing with Kang.  
That night, Sun Tao and Iron Man head to a stormy Las Vegas, where they 
defeat Ultron.  Unbeknownst to our heroes, Antigone ends up in a hospital 
with Ultrons head.

CA3 45: Two days later, as a result of Caps special mission, Nick Fury 
and Dum Dum Dugan take a hovercar to an island in the North Sea to observe 
a funeral.

CA3 46: Nick and Dum Dum are joined by Sharon Carter and then the Avengers, 
including Iron Man, show up.  We see green grass and trees on that North Sea 
island.

CA3 47: Namor joins the group.  They yack amid those green trees.

CA3 48: The group talks.  Iron Man says that the Helicarrier was stolen by 
the Skull several months ago.  Cap arrives with Buckys sister and he 
unveils a commemorative statue of Bucky sculpted by Alicia Masters.

So, it is entirely believable for a gap of three days to occur between pages 
15 and 16 of IM3 46.  During that time, Tony is kept busy, checking on his 
transitional armor, assisting the Avengers with the Alkema emergency, and 
helping Cap on the Helicarrier case.  Ultron uses that time to study and 
adopt Starks SKIN technology before deciding to go back after Sun Tao.

This analysis, along with the previous synopsis of the logic of two 
simultaneous incarnations of Ultron, should (I hope!) close the book on 
this question.

In short, *I concede* to Sean and Jeph and hail their excellent skills at 
chronological analysis.  I can't say I'm sorry I dug in my heels for a 
while, there, though.  It forced us all to get to the nitty gritty of 
detailed evidence in a dozen or so books.  This, to me, is the real value 
of this forum.

Great debate, guys!

--Paul

Next: I'm working on, yes, a revised calendar, and I've shoved USA2 to 
the November election and Def2 1-4 to before that.  This leads to the 
conclusion that Namorita escaped Attuma in Def2 2 and was captured after 
her FF appearances (another theory courtesy of Sean and Jeph).  This makes 
sense from a chronological standpoint, but this means that Namorita's 
hanging around for months while Atlantis is ruled by Attuma. Is everyone 
okay with this?

Maybe she refused to let the FF get involved.  Maybe she tried to take 
her mind off her nation's plight by concentrating on her relationship 
with the Torch.  Maybe she went to the New Warriors instead, as they don't 
operate a bit more freely than the FF.  Maybe the Warriors tried to kick 
Attuma's backside a few times (all unpublished), only to suffer defeat.  
And maybe she finally decided foolishly to go it alone, only to get 
captured.  Any more good justifications for Namorita in FF while Attuma 
rules?

			*	*	*

Afterthought
Posted by Antonio Gavio on September 22, 2002 at 20:25:32:
In Reply to: Concession and Conclusion!!
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 22, 2002 at 17:21:14:

> In short, *I concede* to Sean and Jeph and hail their excellent skills at 
chronological analysis.  I can't say I'm sorry I dug in my heels for a while, 
there, though.  It forced us all to get to the nitty gritty of detailed 
evidence in a dozen or so books.  This, to me, is the real value of this 
forum.

That's exactly the point. I think this thread has done for us something more 
than just solve a few characters chronology problems; it has showed us that 
we are united by our differences in the pursuit of a common goal; nobody 
gets to go home upset because his point of view didn't hold up as long as 
things are ironed out nicely. And more, all of us can see now how helpful 
can the convenience of the use of a calendar be.

Hopefully this is the start of a succession of discussions, since, I'm sure, 
some of us might have a few disagreements with what's already established 
in the MCP (I for one have a few minor 'beefs' regarding Spider-Man's 
chronology). But, then again, there will be time for that ahead. Right now 
I think it's safe to let the cry out...

NEXT!!!!!!

			*	*	*

Re: Afterthought
Posted by Kevin  on September 23, 2002 at 10:59:26:
In Reply to: Afterthought
posted by Antonio Gavio on September 22, 2002 at 20:25:32:

I just wanted to second your thoughts. We showed what looking through a 
bunch of different books can really accomplish.  We CAN figure this thing 
called the Marvel Universe out given enough time.  WOOHOO!

Hey, I got some topics too, (and some beef with Spidey's chronology as well), 
but your right...on to the next topic! After I rest that is...so we can we 
see new/updated chronologies for some of these characters we've been 
debating?

			*	*	*

Follow up question...
Posted by Kevin  on September 23, 2002 at 10:46:21:
In Reply to: Concession and Conclusion!!
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 22, 2002 at 17:21:14:

Okay, so we've figured this out. But there's one more thing I need to be 
sure of:  Does Thunderbolts Issue #57 help cement the timeline you guys just 
constructed, or does it place it in danger? I don't have that issue in front 
of me, but I seem to remember all of the Avengers in the sky. Hank Pym is in 
his Yellowjacket costume, right?  But what armor is Iron Man wearing?  If 
it's the classic armor, wouldn't that be a kink in your plans?  If it's the 
transitional armor, then we would place Thunderbolts #57 as being AFTER 
IM#48, right? And before Avengers #45, right? Sorry, I'm no genius when it 
comes to Iron Man' chronology.

Answer this question for me, and I'll be finished with this topic. But will 
I be ready to move on the next? My head needs to rest for a few days.

			*	*	*

Re: Follow up question...
Posted by SKleefeld on September 23, 2002 at 11:15:04:
In Reply to: Follow up question...
posted by Kevin  on September 23, 2002 at 10:46:21:

> Okay, so we've figured this out. But there's one more thing I need to be 
sure of:  Does Thunderbolts Issue #57 help cement the timeline you guys just 
constructed, or does it place it in danger? I don't have that issue in front 
of me, but I seem to remember all of the Avengers in the sky. Hank Pym is in 
his Yellowjacket costume, right?  But what armor is Iron Man wearing?  If 
it's the classic armor, wouldn't that be a kink in your plans?  If it's the 
transitional armor, then we would place Thunderbolts #57 as being AFTER 
IM#48, right? And before Avengers #45, right? Sorry, I'm no genius when it 
comes to Iron Man' chronology.

Thunderbolts #57 is fine. It featured Yellowjacket and Iron Man in his 
transitional armor. We had it placed between IM3 #49 and #50, relative to 
Tony Stark's continuity, and the whole Graviton attack was shortly before 
the Kang War proper started in A3 #45. 

It doesn't so much 'cement' our findings from the Iron Man-Ultron Imperative-
Avengers Annual solution, as it builds off them.

>Answer this question for me, and I'll be finished with this topic. But will 
I be ready to move on the next? My head needs to rest for a few days. 

Take as much time as you need/like. We'll still be here.  :)

-- Sean

			*	*	*

EMPATH...ENCHANTRESS...EON
Posted by Arthur Stein on September 16, 2002 at 08:56:23:

new entries marked **

EMPATH/
NW 9
NW 10
**UX 281

ENCHANTRESS/AMORA/"HELEN EVE"/"CHRISTINE COLLINS" [ASGARDIAN]
T 427
**T 428
T 430

EON
**CM29
**M/SPT2 3
Q 2
Q 3

Note: The WIW 1 entry for EON should be removed. It is EPOCH in WIW 1 (named 
on page 4).  

********

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them. The aim to help in the completeness of 
this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

			*	*	*

EPOCH...MORLEY ERWIN...EXECUTIONER III
Posted by Arthur Stein on September 20, 2002 at 15:14:22:

new entries marked **

EPOCH
IG 6
**WIW 1
Q 32

ERWIN, MORLEY
**IM 168
IM 169
IM 170

EXECUTIONER III/BRUTE BENHURST
T 402
T 403
**T 404

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if 
I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or 
comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of 
information engineering! 

			*	*	*

minor additions
Posted by Jhaeman on September 20, 2002 at 18:37:27:

Oldar the Oracle    Hulk # 102
The Hood            Captain America # 130

			*	*	*

Iron Man in Defenders, vol. 2 #1 (A chronology conundrum)
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 22, 2002 at 21:53:54:

Here's my current chronology conundrum in compiling the cursed calendar 
(Alliterations 'R Us)...

X 109 -- Christmas
UX 390 -- Colossus' death, after X 109
X 111 -- Eve of Destruction, after UX 390
A3 38-40 -- Quicksilver rejoins Avengers after X 111
IM3 41 -- Iron Man goes to retro armor after A3 40
Def2 1 -- Iron Man in that retro armor
Def2 2 -- Attuma conquers Atlantis
USA2 1-3 -- Attuma is ruler of Atlantis and there's a senatorial election

This sequence places a November event (election) after a December event 
(Christmas).

As I see it, the bug in this sequence is Iron Man being shown in his 
retro/classic armor in Def2 1.  This is shown on a live TV news report for 
one panel.  The screen shows Iron Man and Cap below a collapsing building 
during a fight with a monster.  I don't know about you, but I'd sooner 
dismiss this than the Christmas or election references in the sequence above, 
as both of those references are more central to their storylines.  I'd like 
to sequence things thus...

Def2 1
Def2 2
USA2 1-3
UX 109
X 111
A3 38-40
IM3 41

But to do so, we'd have to explain the classic armor showing up quite a bit 
before IM3 41, indeed before A3 38.  Can that TV shot be trusted, or is it 
some inaccurate artists' rendering of the scene?  Would there have been a 
reason for Tony to don the classic armor before A3 38?  Is it just artist 
error (I mean, look at that panel...) and should we just pretend the armor 
is the correct one for the time?

So, here's a second plea for ideas to add to the "Namorita in FF while 
Attuma reigns" query.  Any takers, or will you take the stand that some 
other reference deserves dismissal more?  (Okay, I'm talking to Sean and 
Jeph here. ;) )

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Iron Man in Defenders, vol. 2 #1 (A chronology conundrum)
Posted by SKleefeld on September 23, 2002 at 08:47:34:
In Reply to: Iron Man in Defenders, vol. 2 #1 (A chronology conundrum)
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 22, 2002 at 21:53:54:

> X 109 -- Christmas
> UX 390 -- Colossus' death, after X 109
> X 111 -- Eve of Destruction, after UX 390
> A3 38-40 -- Quicksilver rejoins Avengers after X 111
> IM3 41 -- Iron Man goes to retro armor after A3 40
> Def2 1 -- Iron Man in that retro armor
> Def2 2 -- Attuma conquers Atlantis
> USA2 1-3 -- Attuma is ruler of Atlantis and there's a senatorial election

> This sequence places a November event (election) after a December event 
(Christmas).

Question though: (I think I've got the series buried somewhere, but I can't 
get to it right now.) Does it actually say the elections are being held in 
November? We've already established that Marvel doesn't run hand-in-hand 
with real time, so is it possible that senatorial elections happen in the 
late winter/early spring?

Question Two: Is this election itself actually shown? If they're just 
preparing or gearing up for the election, that could conceivably happen at 
any time.

No arguments one way or the other from me just yet. I'll have to dig my 
books out first, but I can start asking some pertinent questions to those 
who can get to their books.

> As I see it, the bug in this sequence is Iron Man being shown in his 
retro/classic armor in Def2 1.  This is shown on a live TV news report for 
one panel.  The screen shows Iron Man and Cap below a collapsing building 
during a fight with a monster.  I don't know about you, but I'd sooner 
dismiss this than the Christmas or election references in the sequence above, 
as both of those references are more central to their storylines.  

Well, we're clearly going to have to dismiss the FF uniforms from that 
issue, but I'd like to avoid screwing with Iron Man's costume if we can. 
Again, his armor's a little more central to his character. (Whether or not 
that's more or less critical than the elections in USAgent though remains 
up in the air.)

> But to do so, we'd have to explain the classic armor showing up quite a 
bit before IM3 41, indeed before A3 38.  Can that TV shot be trusted, or 
is it some inaccurate artists' rendering of the scene? 

Well, I'm open to listening to ideas, but I don't think artists would be 
hired to draw up their renditions of live events. :) 

> Would there have been a reason for Tony to don the classic armor before 
A3 38?  Is it just artist error (I mean, look at that panel...)and should 
we just pretend the armor is the correct one for the time?

Like I said, I'd like to avoid messing with IM's armor if I can. I'll take 
a look at USAgent tomorrow night and see what I can find there.

> Next: I'm working on, yes, a revised calendar, and I've shoved USA2 to 
the November election and Def2 1-4 to before that.  This leads to the 
conclusion that Namorita escaped Attuma in Def2 2 and was captured after 
her FF appearances (another theory courtesy of Sean and Jeph). 

Actually, that was pretty much all Jeph.

> This makes sense from a chronological standpoint, but this means that 
Namorita's hanging around for months while Atlantis is ruled by Attuma. Is 
everyone okay with this?

No problems here. Nita's a smart girl; she was smart enough to make a 
strategic retreat when it was warranted and I'm willing to say that she's 
smart enough to NOT return until she felt she had some sort of advantage.

(Clearly, she didn't really have an advantage, but she must've thought she 
did.)

> Maybe she refused to let the FF get involved.  Maybe she tried to take 
her mind off her nation's plight by concentrating on her relationship with 
the Torch.  Maybe she went to the New Warriors instead, as they don't 
operate a bit more freely than the FF.  Maybe the Warriors tried to kick 
Attuma's backside a few times (all unpublished), only to suffer defeat.  
And maybe she finally decided foolishly to go it alone, only to get captured.  
Any more good justifications for Namorita in FF while Attuma rules?

Those all sound viable to me. I'm a little more partial to the Warriors 
angle, but as long as there's SOME justification, I won't concern myself 
with it too much.

> So, here's a second plea for ideas to add to the "Namorita in FF while 
Attuma reigns" query.  Any takers, or will you take the stand that some 
other reference deserves dismissal more?  (Okay, I'm talking to Sean and 
Jeph here. ;) )

Like I said, I'm willing to let Nita hang out with the FF while she recoups 
and gathers her forces (whatever those might be) before attacking Attuma 
again.

Maybe she just got her butt kicked so badly in D2 #2 that it took her until 
#5 to heal up enough to try it again. 

I don't think we necessarily have to come to a concensus on WHY she choose 
not to return to attack Attuma, so long as we agree on the fact that she DID 
spend some time with the FF before doing so.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

First run through of USAgent
Posted by SKleefeld on September 25, 2002 at 08:29:46:
In Reply to: Iron Man in Defenders, vol. 2 #1 (A chronology conundrum)
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 22, 2002 at 21:53:54:

> X 109 -- Christmas
> UX 390 -- Colossus' death, after X 109
> X 111 -- Eve of Destruction, after UX 390
> A3 38-40 -- Quicksilver rejoins Avengers after X 111
> IM3 41 -- Iron Man goes to retro armor after A3 40
> Def2 1 -- Iron Man in that retro armor
> Def2 2 -- Attuma conquers Atlantis
> USA2 1-3 -- Attuma is ruler of Atlantis and there's a senatorial election

> This sequence places a November event (election) after a December event 
(Christmas).

I don't see USAgent as a that much of a problem. 

First, the election itself isn't actually shown. Warkovsky talks about his 
re-election campaign, but that could easily occur at ANY point. Most 
politicans (at least in the U.S.) are looking more towards the next 
election -- whenever that may be -- than anything else. Seriously, they 
start their next re-election campaign usually within days of winning an 
election.

Second, the only thing that suggests an election has taken place during 
the series is Walker's comment on the last page of #3. Notice Val Cooper 
doesn't say Warkovsky wasn't re-elected, only that he's "officially out 
of our hair." It's only John's SUPPOSITION that he lost the election, and 
I think we all know John isn't the sharpest tack in the box. Warkovsky 
could've been imprisoned, or disbarred, or died from some bizarre, slow-
working toxin that his alien symbiote excreted. Maybe he had a religious 
experience and resigned. The point is that we only have the IMPLICATION 
of an election, not an actual one, to deal with. 

Notice, too, that the newspaper Vries has in #2 only talks about Warkovsky's 
general politics, and his speech in #3 (at least, the part we're led to 
believe is his) is pretty vague. There's no mention in either instance of 
his re-election campaign, suggesting that it is, in fact, pretty early in 
the campaign.

If you still need that election to take place, though, there's still a 
gap of an indefinite period just before that last page of #3. I don't know 
that we'd want to keep John under suspension for TOO long, but it's a gap 
nonetheless.

So, I'm inclined to stay with the first listing.

HOWEVER, another potential problem here. There's a Human Torch appearance 
in #3, where he seems to be well in control of his flame, which would suggest 
this occurs either before FF3 #47 or after FF3 #54.  Although Power Broker 
suggests this story occurs very shortly after "Maximum Security" I think it 
might work better (given the Attuma ruling Atlantis bit) closer to Defenders 
#8 or thereabouts.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: First run through of USAgent
Posted by Jeph! on September 25, 2002 at 12:59:58:
In Reply to: First run through of USAgent
posted by SKleefeld on September 25, 2002 at 08:29:46:

Thought you'd gotten rid of me, eh?

> HOWEVER, another potential problem here. There's a Human Torch appearance 
in #3, where he seems to be well in control of his flame, which would suggest 
this occurs either before FF3 #47 or after FF3 #54.

Actually, the Torch loses control in the last pages of FF3 #44, and regains 
control in FF3 #49, when the universe is re-set.

Sorry I haven't had more to say on this one -- I've been keepin' busy in the 
"real world".  :(

    -Jeph!
cursed "real world"...

			*	*	*

Half right
Posted by SKleefeld on September 25, 2002 at 15:40:17:
In Reply to: Re: First run through of USAgent
posted by Jeph! on September 25, 2002 at 12:59:58:

> Actually, the Torch loses control in the last pages of FF3 #44, and regains 
control in FF3 #49, when the universe is re-set.

I stand corrected on #44, but #49 can't resolve Johnny's flame issue for 2 
reasons: 1) he is clearly shown to have problems in #50, 2) he says Doom 
fixed the problem by utilizing his (Johnny's) excess energy for Valeria's 
birth in #54.

> Sorry I haven't had more to say on this one -- I've been keepin' busy in 
the "real world".  :(

I hear ya!

-- Sean

			*	*	*

...and half wrong.
Posted by Jeph! on September 25, 2002 at 21:35:07:
In Reply to: Half right
posted by SKleefeld on September 25, 2002 at 15:40:17:

>> the Torch ... regains control in FF3 #49, when the universe is re-set.

> I stand corrected on #44, but #49 can't resolve Johnny's flame issue for 
2 reasons: 1) he is clearly shown to have problems in #50, 2) he says Doom 
fixed the problem by utilizing his (Johnny's) excess energy for Valeria's 
birth in #54.

Ah.  Sorry.  I guess I misread the end of #49, when Johnny was hugging Nita 
with no problems, and his containment-suit seemed to have vanished with the 
universal reboot.

Can you clarify something -- did Johnny still have to wear his containment 
suit in #50-54?  If not, how obviously bad was his control problem during 
that period?

I'm thinking that if his control problem is off-and-on during #50-54 (IE, 
able to hug people at times, and burning them at others), we could conceivably 
put things like the USAgent series in that area of Torch's chronology without 
too many problems.  It's just the "inability to flame-off without special 
suit" Torch that we need to keep seperate from the rest -- and I believe 
THAT period is only from #44-49.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: ...and half wrong.
Posted by SKleefeld on September 26, 2002 at 07:40:02:
In Reply to: ...and half wrong.
posted by Jeph! on September 25, 2002 at 21:35:07:

I think (and I don't have my books handy to verify this at the moment) that 
there was an off-hand comment that Reed was able to whip up a less cumbersome 
(i.e. not having the full exoskeleton thing) suit for Johnny that helped him 
control his powers. It looked like a regular costume, but evidently didn't 
give him complete control over his powers (judging by the burning lips and 
fried glassware incidents in #50). 

So argueably, Johnny's appearance in USAgent could be after FF3 #49, although 
I wouldn't mind seeing it after FF3 #54 if that doesn't cause problems 
anywhere else.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: First run through of USAgent
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 26, 2002 at 07:28:06:
In Reply to: First run through of USAgent
posted by SKleefeld on September 25, 2002 at 08:29:46:

> Second, the only thing that suggests an election has taken place during 
the series is Walker's comment on the last page of #3. Notice Val Cooper 
doesn't say Warkovsky wasn't re-elected, only that he's "officially out of 
our hair." It's only John's SUPPOSITION that he lost the election, and I 
think we all know John isn't the sharpest tack in the box. Warkovsky could've 
been imprisoned, or disbarred, or died from some bizarre, slow-working toxin 
that his alien symbiote excreted. Maybe he had a religious experience and 
resigned. The point is that we only have the IMPLICATION of an election, not 
an actual one, to deal with. 

I have to disagree with you on this one, Sean.  John Walker may not be Reed 
Richards, but I think he'd know whether or not a senatorial election has 
taken place, especially if it involved a man who was a royal pain in his 
backside.  For him to suppose that Warkowsky just lost an election in, say, 
February, is doing the USAgent character a disservice.

> Notice, too, that the newspaper Vries has in #2 only talks about Warkovsky's 
general politics, and his speech in #3 (at least, the part we're led to 
believe is his) is pretty vague. There's no mention in either instance of 
his re-election campaign, suggesting that it is, in fact, pretty early in 
the campaign.

A stretch.  It had already been established that Warkowsky was seeking re-
election.

> If you still need that election to take place, though, there's still a 
gap of an indefinite period just before that last page of #3. I don't know 
that we'd want to keep John under suspension for TOO long, but it's a gap 
nonetheless.

I thought of a gap, but that would require John Walker to be suspended of 
his USAgent duties for that entire time.  He's back in action in TB 58, 
CA3 50/6, and A3 56, and the gap that would be required to wait for the 
next election after USA3 is too great to push those issues ahead on the 
calendar.

> So, I'm inclined to stay with the first listing.

Not so easy for me.  And there's no way to explain a senatorial re-election 
at a strange time of year, unless US politics in the MU work totally 
differently than in our US.  Look at those frequent presidential elections!  
Are folks comfortable with a senatorial election in, say, February?

Then again, I'd hate to place USA3 too long after Maximum Security.

> HOWEVER, another potential probelem here. There's a Human Torch appearance 
in #3, where he seems to be well in control of his flame, which would suggest 
this occurs either before FF3 #47 or after FF3 #54.  Although Power Broker 
suggests this story occurs very shortly after "Maximum Security" I think it 
might work better (given the Attuma ruling Atlantis bit) closer to Defenders 
#8 or thereabouts.

Good point here, Sean.  We'll have to keep this in mind, noting Jeph's 
correction.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: First run through of USAgent
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 26, 2002 at 07:46:42:
In Reply to: Re: First run through of USAgent
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 26, 2002 at 07:28:06:

> I have to disagree with you on this one, Sean.  John Walker may not be 
Reed Richards, but I think he'd know whether or not a senatorial election 
has taken place, especially if it involved a man who was a royal pain in 
his backside.  For him to suppose that Warkowsky just lost an election in, 
say, February, is doing the USAgent character a disservice.

Okay - what if Warwkosky simply quits and abandons his plan to seek re-
election, without waiting for the humiliation of certain defeat?  He can 
do that before the election takes place.

			*	*	*

Re: First run through of USAgent
Posted by Kevin  on September 26, 2002 at 11:23:06:
In Reply to: Re: First run through of USAgent
posted by Paul O'Brien on September 26, 2002 at 07:46:42:

Or what if it's a Primary election, not the General Election in November? 
Senators can lose Primary elections as early as February...Hell, Gary Condit 
lost his Primary election in May, I believe... I'm saying you really can 
have an election almost any month of the year, concievably.

			*	*	*

Elections in the MU
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 27, 2002 at 20:57:49:
In Reply to: Re: First run through of USAgent
posted by Kevin  on September 26, 2002 at 11:23:06:

> Or what if it's a Primary election, not the General Election in November? 
Senators can lose Primary elections as early as February...Hell, Gary Condit 
lost his Primary election in May, I believe... I'm saying you really can have 
an election almost any month of the year, concievably.

Actually, Condit lost the Democratic Party renomination in a state primary 
held March 6, 2002, but your point is made...at least for U.S. Representatives. 
Do states with primaries this early have U.S. Senators on those ballots?  I'm 
hoping so.

Then the question turns to years instead of time of year.  In the Marvel 
Universe, we're talking about a Senate election the year after a presidential 
election, which never happens in the real U.S. with a sitting incumbent 
looking for re-election.  Senate elections happen during presidential 
election years and two years before/after.

If we accept the identities of U.S. presidents in Marvel comics (Clinton 
is actually Clinton, Dubya is Dubya, etc.) and if we accept that Marvel 
time moves much more slowly that "real" time, then we must accept the 
premise that presidential elections in the M.U. occur on a more frequent 
basis than in the real world -- perhaps every two years instead of four.  
And that would mean that Senatorial elections occur every year.  Politicians 
in the MU are always campaigning!

Some of you will state that this is the kind of thing that makes calendar 
placement a waste of time.  But for those of you who care, is this a premise 
we're willing to accept as die-hard fans of the MU?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Elections in the MU
Posted by Jeph! on September 28, 2002 at 23:38:31:
In Reply to: Elections in the MU
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 27, 2002 at 20:57:49:

Speaking as one of your "die-hard fans of the MU", I believe that the 
presidents we see are in fact the real ones (as opposed to your "archetypical 
current president" theory), and that elections in the MU occur EVERY YEAR.

I mean, let's see, it's been 41 years in the real world since FF #1, and 
we've had 11 elections.  If the MU had 11 elections, and we tried to space 
them out one a year, the MU would be 11 years old -- and I think everyone 
short of John Byrne noe bleieves that it's quite a bit older.

But putting elections at every TWO years means the MU is 22 years old, and 
to me that's far too long.  It means Peter Parker is 39 now -- Spidey pushing 
40?  Yech.

I think the best way to go is to assume that IN GENERAL, Marvel Universe 
presidential elections happen once a year, but for some reason they 
occasionally skip.  That, or they've had more elections then we have -- say, 
15 or so -- and various Presidents won more than they did in the real world.  
For all we know, for example, George Bush Sr. could have won a MU second 
term, giving him a whopping two years in office. ;)

How's that work for everyone?  For me, as a "die-hard fan", I'm perfectly 
prepared to live with it.

By the way, Paul, how far apart are X-Factor #130 and X-Men #108 on your 
calendar?  They both took place right before an election.  I've asked you 
this one a few times, but I don't think you've answered...

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Elections in the MU
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 29, 2002 at 09:06:45:
In Reply to: Re: Elections in the MU
posted by Jeph! on September 28, 2002 at 23:38:31:

I think you or someone else addressed this before, but does Dubya show up 
as president before the election shown in X2 108?

> How's that work for everyone?  For me, as a "die-hard fan", I'm perfectly 
prepared to live with it.

Actually, dividing the number of elections we've had into the number of 
Marvel years that have passed is not the way to go, IMHO.  To do this right, 
we'd need to first chronicle the appearances of every president in the MU 
and track where changes in administration take place, being prepared to 
explain these changes with elections, deaths in office, and resignations.  
The MU U.S. presidents don't necessarily have to serve the same number of 
terms as their real-life counterparts, as you note.

> By the way, Paul, how far apart are X-Factor #130 and X-Men #108 on your 
calendar?  They both took place right before an election.  I've asked you 
this one a few times, but I don't think you've answered...

And then we have the pesky issue of presidential hopefuls (I remember that 
Cap was one once!).  To be honest, I can't see putting two MU years between 
Graydon Creed's and Robert Kelly's bids for high office.  It's hard to 
ignore that there must be only one year between XF 130 and X2 108.

How do they expect the U.S. to have any administrative stability with the 
possibility of administrations changing every year??  Doesn't the MU have 
enough problems?  ;)

--Paul

			*	*	*

Dubya in the MU
Posted by Jeph! on September 29, 2002 at 09:35:42:
In Reply to: Re: Elections in the MU
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 29, 2002 at 09:06:45:

Dueling banjos, Paul.  Good morning.

> I think you or someone else addressed this before, but does Dubya show 
up as president before the election shown in X2 108?

The earliest mention we have of him, I think, is when Everett K. Ross says 
something about "our new rookie president" in BP3 #28.  Storm appeared in 
BP3 #25-27 directly from UX #387, so we know that BP3 #27 is before X #108.  
But, is #28?

I'd have to say yes.  Sorry, Paul -- given the time gap, I think BP3 #28 
follows shortly on the heels of #27 -- and that Magneto's appearance in 
that issue comes BEFORE his appearance in UX #388, part one of the story 
that ends with Robert Kelly's death.

So, yes, we have offhand mention of Dubya as president occuring before X 
#108.

On the other hand, we don't actually SEE him until A3 #49.  So I don't think 
the BP3 mention is worth warping your calendar oddly -- as you say below, 
if we tracked all the presidential appearances on your calendar, we'd very 
likely have several of these inexplicable overlaps.  Go with it.  In this 
case, the president is a minor character -- possibly even scenery.

> Actually, dividing the number of elections we've had into the number of 
Marvel years that have passed is not the way to go, IMHO.  To do this right, 
we'd need to first chronicle the appearances of every president in the MU

It looks to me like we're ALREADY chronicling those appearances.  Check the 
MCP -- I found Carter and Clinton in the "C" page alone.

> The MU U.S. presidents don't necessarily have to serve the same number of 
terms as their real-life counterparts, as you note.

Yeah -- I don't think we can assume ANYTHING about how the MU's presidential 
process mirrors ours.  Including things like swear-in dates.  Unless they're 
part of the story (IE the story takes place on Election Day, or at a 
swearing-in ceremony), we shouldn't use things like this for calendar 
references.

> It's hard to ignore that there must be only one year between XF 130 and 
X2 108.

Yep ... just out of curiosity, then, how many years have passed since UX 
#141-142, occuring on "election eve, 1980"?  Based on Kitty Pryde's age, 
I'd say five -- possibly four.  Paul, what does your calendar have to say?

   -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Dubya in the MU
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 29, 2002 at 16:45:07:
In Reply to: Dubya in the MU
posted by Jeph! on September 29, 2002 at 09:35:42:

> So, yes, we have offhand mention of Dubya as president occuring before 
X #108.

Hmm.  Is Dubya mentioned BY NAME in BP3 28?  Heck, with a presidential 
election every year, there might *always* be a new, rookie president in 
office. ;)  We can't assume Everett's talking about GW Bush.

I'm inclined to think that Bush was elected after this comment and that 
Everett was referring to a predecessor (and not necessarily Clinton, as 
he has much earlier appearances in the MU).  With so much about MU 
presidential politics being different, is it a leap to think that 
individuals occupied the White House in the MU who did not in the real 
world?

> On the other hand, we don't actually SEE him until A3 #49.  So I don't 
think the BP3 mention is worth warping your calendar oddly -- as you say 
below, if we tracked all the presidential appearances on your calendar, 
we'd very likely have several of these inexplicable overlaps.  Go with it.  
In this case, the president is a minor character -- possibly even scenery.

One might argue (as I will) that Dubya's first appearance, before A3 49, 
is in CA@ 2001, given calendar placements.

> > Actually, dividing the number of elections we've had into the number of 
Marvel years that have passed is not the way to go, IMHO.  To do this right, 
we'd need to first chronicle the appearances of every president in the MU

> It looks to me like we're ALREADY chronicling those appearances.  Check 
the MCP -- I found Carter and Clinton in the "C" page alone.

Yes indeed.

> > The MU U.S. presidents don't necessarily have to serve the same number 
of terms as their real-life counterparts, as you note.

> Yeah -- I don't think we can assume ANYTHING about how the MU's presidential 
process mirrors ours.  Including things like swear-in dates.  Unless they're 
part of the story (IE the story takes place on Election Day, or at a 
swearing-in ceremony), we shouldn't use things like this for calendar 
references.

Except I would note that they should at least have some consistency in 
scheduling.  As it turns out, presidential elections in older Marvel comics 
work out to Novembers and we should expect them to continue thusly.  It's 
not a problem for the Robert Kelly year, and probably not for the Graydon 
Creed year either.

> > It's hard to ignore that there must be only one year between XF 130 
and X2 108.

> Yep ... just out of curiosity, then, how many years have passed since 
UX #141-142, occuring on "election eve, 1980"?  Based on Kitty Pryde's age, 
I'd say five -- possibly four.  Paul, what does your calendar have to say?

You're giving me too much credit.  My MU calendar is pretty well worked 
out for the first 11-12 years after FF 1, but after that, all I have is 
raw data that I haven't tied all together yet.  If I had, you'd have seen 
an update on the Avengers Year-By-Year calendar on the Avengers Assemble 
web site long ago.  So many comics, so little time...

--Paul

			*	*	*

Question about Presidents in MU
Posted by Kevin  on September 30, 2002 at 10:42:55:
In Reply to: Re: Dubya in the MU
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 29, 2002 at 16:45:07:

I just wish to double check about Presidents that have appeared in the 
comics since FF#1.  JFK and Lyndon Johnson never appeared in comic books 
right?  Thus, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush the 
sequel, are the only President's we would have to contend with when 
constructing a timeline for MU since FF#1, right?  I'm trying to comprehend 
what you're doing, Paul, and this timeline of yours sounds to big to 
comprehend almost.

			*	*	*

Re: Question about Presidents in MU
Posted by Peter Fabricius on September 30, 2002 at 11:10:35:
In Reply to: Question about Presidents in MU
posted by Kevin  on September 30, 2002 at 10:42:55:

JFK appears in Journey Into Mystery #96.

Peter

			*	*	*

Re: Question about Presidents in MU
Posted by Jeph! on September 30, 2002 at 12:16:44:
In Reply to: Re: Question about Presidents in MU
posted by Peter Fabricius on September 30, 2002 at 11:10:35:

And according to out trusty MCP here, Lyndon Johnson appears in Captain 
America: Sentinel of Liberty #1 - although it's a flashback, and I have no 
idea of the context of it -- pre- or post-FF #1.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Question about Presidents in MU
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 30, 2002 at 21:41:38:
In Reply to: Re: Question about Presidents in MU
posted by Jeph! on September 30, 2002 at 12:16:44:

If it's the flashback I think it is, it's definitely post-FF #1.  In Cap's 
MCP listing, it's between A 46 and TOS 95/2-FB.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Question about Presidents in MU
Posted by Kevin  on October 01, 2002 at 08:12:10:
In Reply to: Re: Question about Presidents in MU
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 30, 2002 at 21:41:38:

I have the issue.  And after having reread it last night, I have some serious 
questions about it. I'm going to start another thread on it here  shortly.  
I'd like to leave this thread open for Paul to get his questions answered 
without me cluttering it up with my own questions.

But I do have one other quick question about this Journey Into Mystery #96, 
in which JFK supposedly appears.  Is this some sort of Flashback to prior 
to FF#1, or is he in the story meeting with Thor in the White House, or 
what? , (Journey into Mystery was Thor's title, right)?  Answer that, and I 
suspect we'll see just who the first President was when the FF came into 
existence.

			*	*	*

Re: Question about Presidents in MU
Posted by Peter Fabricius on October 01, 2002 at 11:04:31:
In Reply to: Re: Question about Presidents in MU
posted by Kevin  on October 01, 2002 at 08:12:10:

No, it is not a flashback.

The Mad Merlin, or the Maha Yogi, as he is later called, wants to challenge 
Thor, goes to the White House to find the president, sees JFK playing with 
his daughter Caroline, but cannot believe he is the president, he is clearly 
too young.

Peter

			*	*	*

Re: Question about Presidents in MU
Posted by Kevin  on October 01, 2002 at 11:44:42:
In Reply to: Re: Question about Presidents in MU
posted by Peter Fabricius on October 01, 2002 at 11:04:31:

And it's clearly JFK? Man, how wierd. And that was written in the early 
60's, right? This appearance needs added to the MCP then.

One other quick thought:  In Avengers Forever, published back in '99 when 
Captain Marvel and Wasp time travel temporarily back to the late 50's or 
early 60's, (I forget exactly when). They discover the Richard Nixon running 
for President in the election 0f 1960 is a Skrull. This clearly makes the 
JFK and Nixon election of 1960 a historical set date, correct?  But if 
JFK appears in a Marvel comic set AFTER FF#1, then unless we say that the 
President is a topical character, then 40 years have passed since FF#1, 
and that's just not right.

Sorry Paul, this probably doesn't affect what you were trying to determine, 
I'm just trying to piece the passage of time together here.  

			*	*	*

Re: Question about Presidents in MU
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 01, 2002 at 13:00:16:
In Reply to: Re: Question about Presidents in MU
posted by Kevin  on October 01, 2002 at 11:44:42:

Danger! Danger!  Erased alternate timeline alert!

Since this was an alternate timeline (and I don't think it exists anymore), 
it doesn't affect the regular Marvel Universe.

			*	*	*

Re: Question about Presidents in MU
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 01, 2002 at 22:09:44:
In Reply to: Re: Question about Presidents in MU
posted by Kevin  on October 01, 2002 at 11:44:42:

> One other quick thought:  In Avengers Forever, published back in '99 when 
Captain Marvel and Wasp time travel temporarily back to the late 50's or 
early 60's, (I forget exactly when). They discover the Richard Nixon 
running for President in the election 0f 1960 is a Skrull. This clearly 
makes the JFK and Nixon election of 1960 a historical set date, correct?  
But if JFK appears in a Marvel comic set AFTER FF#1, then unless we say 
that the President is a topical character, then 40 years have passed since 
FF#1, and that's just not right.

Who says it's "really" the year 2002 in the MU?  I've been inclined to chart 
events since 1961 on an MU timeline that is much shorter than real time.  In 
a previous post I suggest that if you want to put year dates on a calendar, 
it may be 1979 or so in the MU now.  And the MU's 1979 looks a lot like our 
2002.  Specific references to years since 1961 in Marvel Comics have been 
topical.  At least that's my viewpoint.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Question about Presidents in MU
Posted by Peter Fabricius on October 02, 2002 at 11:48:45:
In Reply to: Re: Question about Presidents in MU
posted by Kevin  on October 01, 2002 at 11:44:42:

> And it's clearly JFK? Man, how wierd. And that was written in the early 
60's, right? This appearance needs added to the MCP then.

Oh, yes. I can mail you a scan of the page, or you could check out Essential 
Thor.

Peter

			*	*	*

Re: Question about Presidents in MU
Posted by Kevin  on October 02, 2002 at 21:57:07:
In Reply to: Re: Question about Presidents in MU
posted by Peter Fabricius on October 02, 2002 at 11:48:45:

I've been wanting to check out Essential Thor for some time now. That's 
just one more reason for me to go buy it.  Thanks for the info, I guess 
this is the first instance of a President appearing in a Marvel comic after 
FF#1...

			*	*	*

More thoughts on the Torch...
Posted by Kevin  on September 26, 2002 at 11:46:33:
In Reply to: Re: First run through of USAgent
posted by Kevin  on September 26, 2002 at 11:23:06:

> HOWEVER, another potential probelem here. There's a Human Torch appearance 
in #3, where he seems to be well in control of his flame, which would suggest 
this occurs either before FF3 #47 or after FF3 #54. Although Power Broker 
suggests this story occurs very shortly after "Maximum Security" I think it 
might work better (given the Attuma ruling Atlantis bit) closer to Defenders 
#8 or thereabouts.

Maximum Security happens right around FF issue 36 or 37, (though I'm told 
the Maximum Security event doesn't crossover into the FF title).  Since FF 
issues #38-44 happen  pretty closely together, and this USAgent miniseries, 
(which I don't have) happens supposedly shortly after MS, your best bet may 
be to place the miniseries between FF issues #37 and 38.  What month would 
that be on your calender, Paul?

The Defenders title ran from Jan. 2001 to Dec. 2001, so that run of issues 
started shortly after Maximum Security ended in Oct. of 2000. Since Attuma 
conquered Atlantis in issue 2 of Defenders, It shouldn't be too hard to 
place the series of events something like this:

1.Maximum Security ends.
2. Then, FF issues 36 or 37, (I don't have those issues, sorry if this is 
wrong BTW)
3. Atlantis is conquered in Defenders Issue 2.
4. The USAgent miniseries happens.
5. FF #38 to 44.  

Another possibility is that there may be a gap between FF#39 and 40. Maybe 
place the miniseries there.

Hope that helps, and correct me if I'm wrong in any way.

			*	*	*

FALCONA...FENRIS..."FIREWORKS" FIELSTEIN
Posted by Arthur Stein on September 24, 2002 at 06:12:15:

new entries marked **

FALCONA
H2 119
**H2 120
INH 4

FENRIS
JIM 114/2
**T 277
**T 278

FIELSTEIN, "FIREWORKS"
T 433
** 3C&D 19
M/CP 112/2

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece 
of information engineering! 

			*	*	*

Kwick Kwestion about Korvac Saga TPB
Posted by Jeph! on September 24, 2002 at 12:27:07:

A while back on here, someone was posting about added scenes in TPBs and 
reprints.  They mentioned that they were getting the Korvac Saga TPB soon, 
and that it was supposed to contain an all-new epilogue.

Whoever you were (I can't seem to find the thread), if you received the TPB, 
can you give us a synopsis of the epilogue?  I'm curious to know what it 
added to the books.

Thanks...
    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Kwick Kwestion about Korvac Saga TPB
Posted by Andy Holcombe on September 24, 2002 at 15:36:01:
In Reply to: Kwick Kwestion about Korvac Saga TPB
posted by Jeph! on September 24, 2002 at 12:27:07:

If you can wait until after this weekend, I should be able to help you.  
I've got to find it at my parent's house.

			*	*	*

Korvac Saga and X-Tinction Agenda TPBs
Posted by Jeph! on September 26, 2002 at 00:22:55:
In Reply to: Re: Kwick Kwestion about Korvac Saga TPB
posted by Andy Holcombe on September 24, 2002 at 15:36:01:

Absolutely -- please do.  I'm on my "find all the added scenes in TPBs" kick 
again.  I just found two and a half added pages in the "X-Tinction Agenda" 
TPB.

There's GOT to be a list or resource for these things SOMEwhere, yes?  If 
not, maybe I should make one.  Hmm.

    -Jeph!
...and unless I miss my mark, this is post #2500.  Whoo, geeky landmark!

			*	*	*

Re: Korvac Saga and X-Tinction Agenda TPBs
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 26, 2002 at 03:55:28:
In Reply to: Korvac Saga and X-Tinction Agenda TPBs
posted by Jeph! on September 26, 2002 at 00:22:55:

Placeholder pages, aren't they?  I think they were inserted because otherwise 
at least one double page spreads would have ended up being split.

			*	*	*

Re: Korvac Saga and X-Tinction Agenda TPBs
Posted by Jeph! on September 26, 2002 at 10:55:46:
In Reply to: Re: Korvac Saga and X-Tinction Agenda TPBs
posted by Paul O'Brien on September 26, 2002 at 03:55:28:

Absolutely, yes.  But as they generally hold what are, technically, new 
short scenes (the one in XA features the New Mutants chatting outside the 
Danger Room), I'm thanking that the MCP should at least consider them for 
incorporation.

The "Spider-Man: Revelations" TPB contains several pages of added scenes 
that were made specifically to round out the book, not to help out double-
page spreads, so the notion of original material in a TPB is not without 
precedent...

...and what are these new pages, regardless of their purpose, but ORIGINAL 
MATERIAL?

   -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Korvac Saga and X-Tinction Agenda TPBs
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 26, 2002 at 11:32:01:
In Reply to: Re: Korvac Saga and X-Tinction Agenda TPBs
posted by Jeph! on September 26, 2002 at 10:55:46:

Oh, absolutely.  Given that things like the extra pages in Classic X-Men are 
indisputably canon, I can't see any reason why TPB padding shouldn't be given 
the same treatment.

			*	*	*

X-Tinction Agenda TPB
Posted by Andy Holcombe on September 26, 2002 at 18:34:20:
In Reply to: Korvac Saga and X-Tinction Agenda TPBs
posted by Jeph! on September 26, 2002 at 00:22:55:

>I just found two and a half added pages in the "X-Tinction Agenda" TPB.

Not another one.  It wasn't too long ago that I got what I needed from our 
previous discussion.

			*	*	*

Re: Korvac Saga and X-Tinction Agenda TPBs
Posted by Russ Chappell on September 26, 2002 at 20:06:58:
In Reply to: Korvac Saga and X-Tinction Agenda TPBs
posted by Jeph! on September 26, 2002 at 00:22:55:

> ...and unless I miss my mark, this is post #2500.  Whoo, geeky landmark!

That's easy. But can you be Visitor #500,000?

			*	*	*

Re: Korvac Saga Epilogue Summary
Posted by Andy Holcombe on September 29, 2002 at 16:49:52:
In Reply to: Korvac Saga and X-Tinction Agenda TPBs
posted by Jeph! on September 26, 2002 at 00:22:55:

For those who are curious about the new pages in Avengers: The Korvac Saga 
and aren't fortunate enough to have your own copy:

The story picks up after the end of Avengers (vol. 1) #177 "a few days later" 
at a private cemetery in Queens.  Yondu (still bandaged), Ms. Marvel (still 
in the Mar-Vell inspired costume), Jocasta, Vision, Black Widow, Iron Man, 
Charlie-27 (still bandaged), Quicksilver (still bandaged), Scarlet Witch, 
Nikki (still bandaged), Martinex, Yelowjacket (still bandaged), Wonder Man, 
Black Panther (still bandaged), Hercules, Thor, Wasp (still bandaged?), 
Hawkeye (still bandaged), Captain America, Mar-Vell (still bandaged), and 
Starhawk (still bandaged), with Aleta behind-the-scenes, are standing in 
front of the graves of Michael and Carina Korvac.  Thor tells Hawkeye that 
Korvac and Carina wished themselves dead.  Captain America compares Korvac 
to Hitler.  Mar-Vell and Starhawk talk about Korac's power providing 
justification for his deeds.  Hercules says that life thrives in chaos, 
not order.  Charlie-27 and Nikki wonder about the fate of the souls of 
all-pwerful beings.  After the Avengers leave, Moondragon shows up and 
laments that Korvac was correct, but that his dream of universal order hall 
not come to pass.  The final image is of Death playing with the souls of 
Korvac and Carina while Master Order and Lord Chaos look on.  Writer Bill 
Mantlo waxs poetic on how order is imposed from without by Death and cannot 
be imposed from within.

			*	*	*

Thanks, Andy!  (text)
Posted by Jeph! on September 30, 2002 at 23:28:01:
In Reply to: Re: Korvac Saga Epilogue Summary
posted by Andy Holcombe on September 29, 2002 at 16:49:52:

Thanks, Andy.  Much appreciated!

It seems fairly certain that, since everyone is still bandaged up, this 
epilogue should occur before A #178 -- and since it comes after the events 
of #177, there's a very definite slot to fit it into.

Now, a quick question for you: which issues does this TPB collect?  It ends 
at #177, but where does it begin?

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Avengers: The Korvac Saga
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 01, 2002 at 12:56:35:
In Reply to: Thanks, Andy!  (text)
posted by Jeph! on September 30, 2002 at 23:28:01:

> Thanks, Andy.  Much appreciated!

No problem.  I really wish Marvel hadn't canceled the reprint of the trade, 
because I didn't want to pay what I paid.

> It seems fairly certain that, since everyone is still bandaged up, this 
epilogue should occur before A #178 -- and since it comes after the events 
of #177, there's a very definite slot to fit it into.

You're really on top of things today, Jeph.  That's excatly where it's 
listed on many (if not all, I didn't check everybody) of the relevant 
chronologies here in the MCP.  ;)

> Now, a quick question for you: which issues does this TPB collect?

Avengers (vol. 1) #167, 168, 170-177.  Issue #169 was a fill-in issue.

			*	*	*

Re: Avengers: The Korvac Saga
Posted by Jeph! on October 01, 2002 at 15:06:15:
In Reply to: Avengers: The Korvac Saga
posted by Andy Holcombe on October 01, 2002 at 12:56:35:

> I really wish Marvel hadn't canceled the reprint of the trade, because I 
didn't want to pay what I paid.

If I may ask, how much DID you pay?

> You're really on top of things today, Jeph.  That's excatly where it's 
listed on many (if not all, I didn't check everybody) of the relevant 
chronologies here in the MCP.  ;)

Ouch.  I blush.  Sorry -- I hadn't realized that it was in already.  Yeah, 
I'm being an idiot today.

Why doesn't this board have an Edit function?  :P  Or at the very least, an 
idiot filter?

> > Now, a quick question for you: which issues does this TPB collect?

> Avengers (vol. 1) #167, 168, 170-177.  Issue #169 was a fill-in issue.

Thanks.  Okay, no more dumb questions for me.

    -Jeph!
...on this thread, anyway.

			*	*	*

Re: Avengers: The Korvac Saga
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 01, 2002 at 20:38:09:
In Reply to: Re: Avengers: The Korvac Saga
posted by Jeph! on October 01, 2002 at 15:06:15:

> If I may ask, how much DID you pay?

$40, so double what a new printing would have cost.

			*	*	*

Cap VS The Scull
Posted by 0mNiS|aSh ViRuSc0oPeR on September 25, 2002 at 11:49:12:

Hi

I have the first part of a comic story in which Cap fights the scull. The 
comic(and story) is named Cap VS The Scull, and is about when the scull 
has taken control of america and does a lot of terrible things to win the 
strongest. he puts up floods, sets in a terrible hunger, starts a new ice 
age... What i'm looking for is web pages where I can read the the rest of 
the story (It said to be continued), because i cant get the comic here in 
norway. If someone could mail me an URL or something, that would be nice

			*	*	*

Re: Cap VS The Scull
Posted by BobMM on September 25, 2002 at 16:18:56:
In Reply to: Cap VS The Scull
posted by 0mNiS|aSh ViRuSc0oPeR on September 25, 2002 at 11:49:12:

I don't recognize this story offhand. Does your copy list the writer and 
artist?

			*	*	*

Re: Cap VS The Scull
Posted by TIM BOO BA on September 25, 2002 at 21:28:53:
In Reply to: Re: Cap VS The Scull
posted by BobMM on September 25, 2002 at 16:18:56:

Bob: It's Cap'n America vol. 2 #16.  By Waid and Kubert.

			*	*	*

Re: Cap VS The Scull
Posted by BobMM on September 26, 2002 at 14:56:04:
In Reply to: Re: Cap VS The Scull
posted by TIM BOO BA on September 25, 2002 at 21:28:53:

Well, no wonder I didn't recognize it. It's too flipping recent!  I'm 
getting old and that short term memory is going. Next time maybe someone 
will ask about something that happened in 1968.

			*	*	*

Re: Cap VS The Scull
Posted by The Nightmare on September 26, 2002 at 14:51:06:
In Reply to: Cap VS The Scull
posted by 0mNiS|aSh ViRuSc0oPeR on September 25, 2002 at 11:49:12:

That issue is Captain America #16 like TIM BOO BA mentioned. However, the 
story begins at the end of Captain America #14 and continues until issue #19.

			*	*	*

On Kate Fraiser
Posted by Lilith on September 27, 2002 at 04:31:51:

Just was looking for Kate Fraiser on your site and saw that you don't have 
her apperance in Marvel Preview 3 (along with Blade).  Any reason or just 
overlooked?

			*	*	*

I don't know the exact format for suggesting additions to the chronology, but...
Posted by Daniel Lynch  on September 27, 2002 at 05:31:49:

I've been researching Speed Demon for  a story I want to wite. This website 
has been very useful in the past and I thought I'd come by and see what you 
had on him. It was very helpful, thank you. 

On that same note, I have also discovered Speed Demon appears in Captain 
America 411 and 413 as well a Silver Sable 16 and 17. I believe both of these 
take place during one of your gaps. 

I hope this helps.

-DL

			*	*	*

Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 27, 2002 at 21:42:47:

I'm busy working on an overhaul of the MU calendar and I need some feedback.  
I'm trying to minimize (as much as I can) the amounts of time that pass 
between XX 2-FB and XX 1 (The X-Treme team leave the mansion and end up in 
Spain) and between A3 44 and 45 (the clear and present danger posed by Kang).  
It's not easy, and a lot depends on Hawkeye's chronology and his pesky 
appearance on national TV in CA3 50/6.

The question: how early can Hawkeye appear in CA3 50/6?  He was incarcerated 
in TB 50 and, except for a mission in A:UI, was not free and back in costume 
until TB 63.  However, just before he gets his costume, he claims that he and 
Plantman are "still on the lam."  If that's true, can he afford to make an 
appearance on national TV right after this to remark on the supposed death of 
Captain America?  Or was the covert nature of his mission, including his 
status as a supposed prison escapee, moot at the end of TB 63?

If someone can argue that it was moot (someone who understands the finer 
points of the long-running Thunderbolts plot than I do), that would make 
life easier!

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 28, 2002 at 07:43:25:
In Reply to: Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 27, 2002 at 21:42:47:

I can't really see much space for Hawkeye to appear in other stories during 
this period.

Hawkeye surrenders to the authorities in Thunderbolts #50.  He's in prison 
as of at least Thunderbolts #52 (the next time we see him).  At some point 
during his prison stint, he's released briefly to appear in Avengers: Ultron 
Imperative.

Now, a key plot point of the arc that follows Hawkeye's escape is that he 
leaves the prison along with three other prisoners - Headlok, Cottonmouth and 
Plantman - all of whom are bound together by electronic locks that prevent 
them from leaving one another.  It's therefore impossible for Hawkeye to 
appear in Captain America #50 during the period between his escape and 
Songbird coming along to remove the shackles.

Hawkeye and co leave Seagate in Thunderbolts #55 in a prison van.  They 
escape from that van in Thunderbolts #56 when it's knocked off the road by 
tremors caused by Graviton's worldwide attack in the same issue.  By the 
way, Thunderbolts #55 is the story in which Graviton shows up to attack the 
Thunderbolts, immediately following their fight with Humus Sapien, which 
runs through Thunderbolts #54-55.

So the latest gap in which Hawkeye can be released from prison in order to 
appear in any non-Thunderbolts stories is between Thunderbolts #53-54.

Having escaped, Hawkeye remains manacled (and the manacles remain a prominent 
plot point throughout) until Thunderbolts #63, when Songbird finally turns 
up, removes the shackles and gives him back his costume.

At the end of this story, Hawkeye, Songbird and Plantman are planning to 
head off to Symkaria to follow up a plot thread regarding the legacy of 
Justin Hammer.  None of them appear in issue #64, which features the Counter-
Earth team - although it does have a scene at the end of the Crimson Cowl 
recruiting Cardinal into the Masters of Evil.

I can't see any compelling reason to prevent Hawkeye making guest appearances 
in other books in the gap between Thunderbolts #63-65.

In Thunderbolts #65, Hawkeye, Songbird and Plantman arrive in Europe, but 
not in Symkaria - instead they skirmish with some members of the Masters of 
Evil and recruit some of them into the Thunderbolts.  Another potential gap 
for guest appearances, albeit a slightly awkward one, between Thunderbolts 
#65 and #67.

The remainder of the Becoming Heroes arc thus far - ie, Thunderbolts #67, 
#69 and #71 - takes place in Symkaria with no sensible breaks to appear 
elsewhere.  This arc is still ongoing.

So really, if you're looking to place Hawkeye guest appearances in recent 
years, your main options are to place them between Thunderbolts #53-54 (which 
involves him getting a release from Seagate Prison), or between Thunderbolts 
#63 and #65 (which means he takes a detour from his planned trip to Symkaria, 
but even reading Thunderbolts in isolation, he didn't go straight there 
anyway).  There doesn't seem to be any way to force a Hawkeye guest 
appearance anywhere between Thunderbolts #54 and #63, since he's manacled 
to three other characters and on the run throughout that period.

			*	*	*

Re: Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 28, 2002 at 18:44:35:
In Reply to: Re: Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
posted by Paul O'Brien on September 28, 2002 at 07:43:25:

> I can't see any compelling reason to prevent Hawkeye making guest 
appearances in other books in the gap between Thunderbolts #63-65.

So, here's not really "still on the lam" with Plantman after he is released 
from the manacles, even though he says he is?  As of the end of TB 63, is 
there indeed no problem with the nation knowing that Hawkeye is out of 
prison and that it's okay with law enforcement that he is (because of the 
assignment that SHIELD gave him)?

--Paul


			*	*	*

Re: Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
Posted by Jeph! on September 28, 2002 at 22:54:58:
In Reply to: Re: Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 28, 2002 at 18:44:35:

> So, [between TB #63-65, Hawkeye's] not really "still on the lam" with 
Plantman after he is released from the manacles, even though he says he is?

Where does he say that?

No, he's not.  PLANTMAN may still be on the lam, but I'm sure Hawk's 
"escapee" status was dealt with by SHIELD -- after all, we've learned that 
Hawk's prison term was pretty much arranged by SHIELD anyway.

> As of the end of TB 63, is there indeed no problem with the nation knowing 
that Hawkeye is out of prison and that it's okay with law enforcement that 
he is (because of the assignment that SHIELD gave him)?

Well, first of all, we never saw him on "national televison".  We saw him 
being interviewed -- presumably -- by an unseen person.  We have no way of 
knowing whether it was a broadcast or print interview, or where he was being 
interviewed FROM.    We don't even know if it AIRED -- for all we know, 
SHIELD could have spiked the article to avoid Hawk's release becoming public 
knowledge.

There's no way any one media team gathered ALL these interviews (come on -- 
Arnim Zola?  Namor?).  It's possible to assume that Hawk was talking to some 
local-paper newshound.  Just because some of the others appeared to be video 
crews (Black Widow) doesn't mean Hawk's was. 

All we know is that Hawkeye was asked for comment on Cap's death, presumably 
by a member of the press.  The only DEFINITE factors in that panel are that 
he's wearing his costume, and the background does not appear to be that of a 
prison.

From there, we're wide and open.  I'd say we're free and clear to place the 
Cap story in the TB #63-65 gap.

   -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
Posted by Jerome Conner on September 28, 2002 at 23:42:27:
In Reply to: Re: Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
posted by Jeph! on September 28, 2002 at 22:54:58:

I find that I must agree with Jeph. Hawkeye is still on the lam and 
Electronically manacaled.

What's the chance that the image that we are seeing is some file footage or 
past interveiw. I mean Cap has disappeared (or faked his death) before. Past 
interveiws are quicker then getting real one from escaped heros/villians.

			*	*	*

Re: Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 29, 2002 at 08:01:44:
In Reply to: Re: Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
posted by Jerome Conner on September 28, 2002 at 23:42:27:

> What's the chance that the image that we are seeing is some file footage or 
past interveiw. I mean Cap has disappeared (or faked his death) before. 

Are we talking about the obituary snippets in Captain America #50?

If so, it's surprisingly plausible for the interview footage to be pre-
recorded.  It's by no means unknown for news organisations to pre-record 
obituaries which contain comments from "friends" of the deceased recorded 
way before they died.  (For example, when the Queen Mother died, several 
viewers spotted that the obituary interview with the Archbishop of Canterbury 
was filmed with broad daylight visible through the windows, which made it 
completely impossible for the footage to have been filmed between her death 
and the interview being broadcast.)

Having said that, I'm not sure that all of those snippets necessarily need 
to be taken literally as broadcast interviews - the panels showing villains 
and Gyrich talking off the record can't plausibly have been for public 
consumption.  I think it's a mixture of obituary contributions and characters 
simply talking to themselves, or to people off camera.

Plus, Hawkeye attended the funeral - a very public event - in full costume.  
If his escape was meant to be a secret, why would he do that?  If it was an 
issue, then the likely explanation is that the government passed it off as 
a day release from prison for the purpose.

			*	*	*

Re: Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
Posted by Jeph! on September 29, 2002 at 09:06:38:
In Reply to: Re: Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
posted by Paul O'Brien on September 29, 2002 at 08:01:44:

> Are we talking about the obituary snippets in Captain America #50?

Yep.

> I'm not sure that all of those snippets necessarily need to be taken 
literally as broadcast interviews - the panels showing villains and Gyrich 
talking off the record can't plausibly have been for public consumption.  I 
think it's a mixture of obituary contributions and characters simply talking 
to themselves, or to people off camera.

I agree.  HYDRA?  Arnim Zola and his creatures?  Those just couldn't have 
beeen filmed by a camera crew.  It's possible (but not plausible) that 
Hawkeye is just looking at a photo of the old Avengers and talking to 
Songbird.  Who knows?

> Plus, Hawkeye attended the funeral - a very public event - in full costume.

No, he didn't.  He didn't even attend it OUT-of-costume, from what I can tell.

I think we can assume that his "snippet" in that story never made it to air, 
just like HYDRA's and Gyrich's.  And I think we can safely assume that the 
snippet occured after TB #63, where he gets his costume back -- and probably 
before TB #65, when he goes to Europe (and hasn't come back yet).  Not that 
the European news media wouldn't care about Cap's death, but that Hawk is 
back on-the-job from #65-on with very few breaks.

There's a three-week break between TB #63-65.  Let's use it, shall we?

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 29, 2002 at 08:47:59:
In Reply to: Re: Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
posted by Jeph! on September 28, 2002 at 22:54:58:

> > So, [between TB #63-65, Hawkeye's] not really "still on the lam" with 
Plantman after he is released from the manacles, even though he says he is?

> Where does he say that?

TB 63, page 20, panel 1 (two pages after he his freed from the manacles and 
one panel before Songbird gives him his costume) --

Hawkeye: "Okay, me and Smithers are still on the lam -- and we still only 
have half a clue what's going on."  He says this after Songbird tells him 
that Dugan gave her the deactivation codes for the manacles.  So what's up?  
Is Hawkeye an outlaw or not at this point?

> No, he's not.  PLANTMAN may still be on the lam, but I'm sure Hawk's 
"escapee" status was dealt with by SHIELD -- after all, we've learned that 
Hawk's prison term was pretty much arranged by SHIELD anyway.

Then why the "on the lam" comment?

> > As of the end of TB 63, is there indeed no problem with the nation 
knowing that Hawkeye is out of prison and that it's okay with law enforcement 
that he is (because of the assignment that SHIELD gave him)?

> Well, first of all, we never saw him on "national televison".  We saw him 
being interviewed -- presumably -- by an unseen person.  We have no way of 
knowing whether it was a broadcast or print interview, or where he was being 
interviewed FROM.    We don't even know if it AIRED -- for all we know, 
SHIELD could have spiked the article to avoid Hawk's release becoming public 
knowledge.

> There's no way any one media team gathered ALL these interviews (come on -- 
Arnim Zola?  Namor?).  It's possible to assume that Hawk was talking to some 
local-paper newshound.  Just because some of the others appeared to be video 
crews (Black Widow) doesn't mean Hawk's was. 

> All we know is that Hawkeye was asked for comment on Cap's death, 
presumably by a member of the press.  The only DEFINITE factors in that 
panel are that he's wearing his costume, and the background does not appear 
to be that of a prison.

Actually, now that I look at that panel again, who says he's being 
interviewed AT ALL?  We could be looking in on Hawkeye as he comments to 
Songbird about Cap's death.  Of course, who knows why he's carrying a 
framed picture of "Cap's Kooky Quartet" around with him??

I would suggest that Hawkeye, for some reason I don't quite understand, is 
still on the lam, and that explains his ABSENCE from Cap's funeral.  (Another 
post claimed he was there in costume, but he's not even there in civvies!  
Those blond guys in suits are Hank Pym and Johnny Storm.)

> From there, we're wide and open.  I'd say we're free and clear to place 
the Cap story in the TB #63-65 gap.

I agree.  My latest theory:  Hawkeye is indeed here between TB 63 and 65, 
while he is still on the lam.  His comment in CA3 50/6 was a private one to 
Songbird (who, if this theory holds up, would be BTS?).  Then there's that 
pesky photo...

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
Posted by Jeph! on September 29, 2002 at 09:13:01:
In Reply to: Re: Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 29, 2002 at 08:47:59:

> TB 63, page 20, panel 1 -- Hawkeye: "Okay, me and Smithers are still on 
the lam -- and we still only have half a clue what's going on."  He says 
this after Songbird tells him that Dugan gave her the deactivation codes 
for the manacles.  So what's up?  Is Hawkeye an outlaw or not at this 
point? ... why the "on the lam" comment?

Well, one could read it as saying that at that point, he WAS on the lam -- 
but SHIELD fixed it shortly after that scene.  Or, as you say below, he 
could still legitimately be on the lam ... "for authenticity", SHIELD might 
say.  I don't think it matters.

> Of course, who knows why he's carrying a framed picture of "Cap's Kooky 
Quartet" around with him??

My dumb theory: he's on the Helicarrier, helping incarcerate Cottonmouth 
and Headlok.  He heard the nws, ran across an old photo, and broke down.

> I would suggest that Hawkeye, for some reason I don't quite understand, 
is still on the lam, and that explains his ABSENCE from Cap's funeral.

I agree -- that explains it nicely.

> > From there, we're wide and open.  I'd say we're free and clear to place 
the Cap story in the TB #63-65 gap.

> I agree.  My latest theory:  Hawkeye is indeed here between TB 63 and 65, 
while he is still on the lam.  His comment in CA3 50/6 was a private one to 
Songbird (who, if this theory holds up, would be BTS?).

Well, not necessarily.  He could have been talking to Plantman.  He could 
have been talking to himself.  He could, if he was on the Helicarrier (which 
might explain the photo), be talking to anyone at SHIELD.

We should just assume that he's talking to "unidentified person, BTS" -- 
assuming that it's Songbird and crediting her accordingly is, I feel, taking 
too much into our own hands.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 29, 2002 at 16:51:41:
In Reply to: Re: Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
posted by Jeph! on September 29, 2002 at 09:13:01:

> > Of course, who knows why he's carrying a framed picture of "Cap's Kooky 
Quartet" around with him??

> My dumb theory: he's on the Helicarrier, helping incarcerate Cottonmouth 
and Headlok.  He heard the nws, ran across an old photo, and broke down.

Okay...I'll buy that.  And Dugan tells him he can't attend Cap's funeral 
because doing so would somehow jeopardize the whole undercover Justin Hammer 
mission.  Hawkeye says, "Okay, whatever you say, ya ol' walrus."  ;)

> > > From there, we're wide and open.  I'd say we're free and clear to 
place the Cap story in the TB #63-65 gap.

> > I agree.  My latest theory:  Hawkeye is indeed here between TB 63 and 65, 
while he is still on the lam.  His comment in CA3 50/6 was a private one to 
Songbird (who, if this theory holds up, would be BTS?).

> Well, not necessarily.  He could have been talking to Plantman.  He could 
have been talking to himself.  He could, if he was on the Helicarrier (which 
might explain the photo), be talking to anyone at SHIELD.

I'm thinkin' "no" on Plantman.  Maybe he's talking to Dugan right before 
Dugan sensitively tells him he can't go the funeral.

> We should just assume that he's talking to "unidentified person, BTS" -- 
assuming that it's Songbird and crediting her accordingly is, I feel, taking 
too much into our own hands.

You're right about that.  But let's agree that Hawkeye was in private 
conversation with someone in CA3 50/6 between TB 63 and 65 and move on.  
Another piece of the puzzle in place!  Thanks, folks.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Wrapping up the thread...
Posted by Jeph! on September 29, 2002 at 22:40:31:
In Reply to: Re: Hawkeye in CA3 50/6
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 29, 2002 at 16:51:41:

Works for me, and you're welcome.  What's the next hurdle to jump?  I guess 
the senatorial election in USAgent, although that seems 99% dealt with...

...anything big left to tackle?

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

FIREBUG...VANESSA FISK...FORCE
Posted by Arthur Stein on September 28, 2002 at 15:47:14:

new entries marked **

FIREBUG/
AF 110
AF 111
**AF 112

FISK, VANESSA
DD 180
**DD 186
PPTSS 82

FORCE/CLAYTON WILSON "TAYLOR"
IM 224
**IM 225
DHAWK@ 1-BTS

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if 
I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or 
comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of 
information engineering!

			*	*	*

Vanessa Fisk Entry Error...?
Posted by The Nightmare on September 29, 2002 at 00:33:52:

Under the Vanessa Fisk entry you have the Marvel Graphic Novel #24 coming 
after ASM #288. However, in ASM #288 there are two footnote that place the 
novel before ASM #284 thru ASM #288 (Gang War Parts 1-5). The first note 
states that "Gang War" part 1-5 takes place before Spider-Man vs Wolverine 
#1 AND after Daredevil: Love and War (Marvel GN #24). The other note that 
appears in the comic is for what the Kingpin says: "Vannessa recently left 
me." The footnote states "Daredevil GN". I have all the "Gang War" issues, 
but I don't have the Daredevil GN. So, if there is any evidence in the GN 
to rebuttle my statment, please let me know. If my statement holds true, 
then entries for Daredevil, Kingpin, and other related characters envoled 
in both "Gang War" and the Daredevil GN will need to be corrected. Just 
helping out.-T.N.

			*	*	*

searchthemcp - Layout
Posted by Jimmy on September 29, 2002 at 11:34:05:

Here it is! (finally)

http://www.mycgiserver.com/~marvels/searchthemcp.htm

It's the same address as before.
I dropped the frames. Will it do?

			*	*	*

Re: searchthemcp - Layout
Posted by Administrator on September 29, 2002 at 11:58:44:
In Reply to: searchthemcp - Layout
posted by Jimmy on September 29, 2002 at 11:34:05:

Ooooo. I'm tingly all over. We'll add it.

Thanks, Jimmy. Great job!

Russ

			*	*	*

Dr. Strange
Posted by Andy Holcombe on September 29, 2002 at 22:47:54:

Currently, Dr. Strange is listed as appearing in the following books between 
Dr. Strange (vol. 3) #19 and 20.

DRSTR3 19
AF 86
M/FAN 52/2
T 413
H2 370
H2 371
BK2 3
BK2 4
ASM 336
UX@ 14
IMSVS 1/3
XCAL 30
M/CP 61/4
DRSTR3 20

The Hulk and Wolverine story "On the Road" in Marvel Comics Presents #54-61 
take place after Uncanny X-Men Annual #14.  Incredible Hulk #370 and 371 take 
place after the Marvel Comics Presents serial.  I don't think there's anything 
special about the order from Dr. Strange's perspective, so I suggest moving 
the Incredible Hulk issues after the Uncanny X-Men Annual.
