CA:Sentinel of Liberty! Need help with the timeline presented...
Posted by Kevin  on October 01, 2002 at 12:30:16:

Well, I reread CA: Sentinel of Libery, (vol.2 I believe?) Issue 1 last 
night, and I stumbled upon something.  The bulk of the story is a flashback 
to a period shortly after Cap and Sharon Carter first met.  That period 
originally in the Marvel Universe was written in the late 60's.  That's when 
Lyndon Johnson was President.  In the Flashback sequence, a rogue Agent 9 
has taken over the Sheild helecarier, and CAP and Sharon (Agent 13) have to 
take him out.  Sharon gets a written order from "The President" ordering CAP 
to terminate Agent 9, "with extreme prejudice" or something like that. Sharon 
terminates the Rogue agent herself, saving Cap the trouble.  

So anyway, this is the supposed appearance by Lyndon Johnson as listed in the 
MCP. Anyway, is it fair to qualify this as an appearance by Johnson?  The 
Administrator seems to deem so, but this brings back up the whole "is a 
President that appears a topical reference" debate again. I mean, we don't 
actually see Johnson.  Just because this story takes place when CAP was 
written in the late 60's, it doesn't mean the story actually took place in 
the 60's, right?  After all, that would mean 40 years have passed, and of 
course 40 years hasn't passed in the MU.  So is this President mentioned 
actually Johnson, or can we just say, "It's whatever President in power at 
the time", and be done with it.

My second dilemma of sorts is the other part of CA:SofL #1: The "present day" 
story. The comic opens up with the main story happening on JULY 4th, 2001.  
The comic was written in early 1998.  This was an unprecedented "glimpse into 
the near future" comic, and it was written to be fact, unlike the infamous 
"Days of Future Past" storyline from X-men.  Since we have to take Sept. 
11th, 2001 (as has been discussed before) as an actual date, we should have 
to take the July 4th date as canon as well, correct?  Russ hadn't gotten 
around to placing this July 4th story into the MCP yet. So now that we have 
so much time documented for the supposed year 2001, (thanks to Sept. 11th 
being documented), can we place the SofL issue #1 comic into the MCP without 
it causing any trouble?

To recap the story, it goes as follows:  The story opens on July 4th, 2001. 
CAP is fighting a terrorist organization called the Millinium Dawn. He's 
complaining about the fact that he's having to work on his day off, and 
mentions the fact that he's missing a date with Connie Ferrari. He beats 
the bad guys, and meets up with Sharon Carter, and then he flash's back in 
his mind to a previous 4th of July when the two of them worked together. 
This lenghthy flashback in the whole Agent 9 steals the Helicarrier plot. 
Then, back to the present, where Cap beams up to the Helicarrier and meets 
with Sharon, whom we learn is now the head of Shield. And then it's The End.

Paul, (and the rest of you), I know we haven't really focused on making a 
timeline for before Maximum Security, (or maybe you guys have) but I'd like 
to submit the following comics as a timeframe to keep in mind.

Steve Rogers starts dating Connie around when Dan Jurgens came about Cap as 
writer. That was issue 25.  In issue 28, Steve, who apparently has missed 
every date they've attempted to go out on together, shows up at Connie's 
office with a bunch of roses and remarks something like "Since Valentine's 
day is just around the corner"...in other words, he's trying to get her to 
go out on a date on Valentine's day. Valentine's day is of course before 
July 4th. Bear with me here as I explain this.

Issues 28-31 of Cap run smoothly together over the course of a few days, 
giving enough time for Cap to go rescue Sharon from Count Neferia in the 
Savage Land.  He returns just in time to show up a few minutes late for his 
date with Connie, on what can be assumed to be Valentine's Day.  Also in 
issue 31, Sharon, (who just got rescued and joins back up with Shield) gets 
placed in command of Shield by Nick Fury, who is starting to go off on yet 
another solo mission, to do some snooping around for Connie's long lost 
brother.

Maximum Security takes place supposedly in August going by the calender 
we've created, (mostly Paul's work, mind you, but of course many have 
contributed). We place it there because it has to happen shortly before Sept. 
11th, our other Fixed Date seen in comic books.  Issue #36 of Cap is the 
Maximum Security crossover issue, I believe.  So Cap #32-35, CAP annual 
2000, and Sentinel of Libery #1 have to take place between February 14th,
2001, and August. Anyone care to take a stab at what the correct order might 
be?  I just wanted to point out that even though this places an uncanny long 
gap of 6 months in the title, it still works, even though the single 
Sentinel of Liberty story was written 4 years earlier.  

One point to consider: Thor shows up in CAP issue #28. This supposedly occurs 
before Thor angerly leaves the Avengers in A#27.  So this means A#27 to issue 
#35 happen between Valentines day and August, (Maximum Security month).  I'm 
simply submitting all this for consideration in this timeline we've concocted.

			*	*	*

Not much help, I am.
Posted by Jeph! on October 01, 2002 at 12:55:49:
In Reply to: CA:Sentinel of Liberty! Need help with the timeline presented...
posted by Kevin  on October 01, 2002 at 12:30:16:

> The bulk of the story is a flashback to a period shortly after Cap and 
Sharon Carter first met.  That period originally in the Marvel Universe was 
written in the late 60's.  That's when Lyndon Johnson was President. ... 
Sharon gets a written order from "The President" ordering CAP to terminate 
Agent 9.  

> So anyway, this is the supposed appearance by Lyndon Johnson as listed in 
the MCP. Anyway, is it fair to qualify this as an appearance by Johnson?

Eh, it's a good point -- unless he's specifically referred to as Lyndon 
Johnson, there shouldn't be a specific MCP listing, as exactly WHICH President 
signed the letter wasn't specified.

Unless it WAS specified, perhaps in a different issue?  Or perhaps Johnson's 
signature is visible in the fine-print of the letter?  I don't know -- Russ 
could probably answer that better than I.

You make a good point, is all I'm sayin'.  ;)

> My second dilemma of sorts is the other part of CA:SofL #1: The "present 
day" story. The comic opens up with the main story happening on JULY 4th, 
2001.  The comic was written in early 1998.

> Since we have to take Sept. 11th, 2001 (as has been discussed before) as 
an actual date, we should have to take the July 4th date as canon as well, 
correct?

Not necessarily.  What Paul is trying to do is to place the Sept. 11 issues 
on *A* Sept. 11 -- no year will be specified on the finished calendar.  To 
anchor a period of Marvel history to an actual year will bring trouble down 
the line.

Imagine ten years from now, in 2012.  We're all still keeping track of 
Marvel comics, and the MU's calendar has inched forward -- let's say -- three 
years.

Does that mean that it's 2004 in the Marvel Universe?  No.  It's 2012 in the 
Marvel Universe at that point, and "Sept. 11" was three years ago for them.  
To specify a year adds confusion -- was it 9/11/2009?  Was it 9/11/2001?  
It's best to avoid making it an issue: it was simply "9/11", and that's all.

That's why we can't use years as reference points.  All we're trying to do 
is preserve the "Sept. 11" aspect of the date -- NOT the "2001" aspect.

So, in this case, we should focus on the July 4th aspect -- not necessarily 
the 2001 aspect.

On the other hand, from what you say, the mentions of a date with Connie 
and Sharon Carter as head of SHIELD seem to mesh well with the books that 
were published in summer 2001.  So maybe it'll work out.

Hmm.  I didn't add much to this, did I?  Sorry.

Ah well -- let those who care more about Cap jump on it.  It's back to X-Men 
for me... ;)

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

And also a dummy.
Posted by Jeph! on October 01, 2002 at 15:15:36:
In Reply to: Not much help, I am.
posted by Jeph! on October 01, 2002 at 12:55:49:

Hmm.  Yeah, an Edit function would definitely be a good idea.  That, or the 
notion of proofreading on my part...

> > Since we have to take Sept. 11th, 2001 (as has been discussed before) as 
an actual date, we should have to take the July 4th date as canon as well, 
correct?

> in this case, we should focus on the July 4th aspect -- not necessarily 
the 2001 aspect.

Now, this I still agree with, and I suppose I should elaborate.  If a date 
is given in a Marvel comic, and Paul CAN make it fit into his calendar,  he 
does.  But if it just doesn't fit, he ignores it -- like the Christmas 
reference in IM3 #50.  So, even given the whole "drop the year, focus on the 
month and day" thing I said before, we still don't HAVE to take the July 4th 
date as canon if it clearly doesn't fit.

Now, for my idiocy...

> On the other hand, from what you say, the mentions of a date with Connie 
and Sharon Carter as head of SHIELD seem to mesh well with the books that 
were published in summer 2001.  So maybe it'll work out.

Yeah, well, then I realized that the Cap issue published in July 2001 was 
#44, not #28-31 like you were talking about.  Oops.

I assumed that you meant that, somehow, the CA:SL story, dated July 4th 2001, 
fit nicely into the state of affairs in Cap's main book in July 2001.

I was going to caution you against placing the story there based on 
publication date, until I saw that you had showed that it DID fit.

Of course, now I realize you were talking about books published in winter 
and spring of 2000, and so you WEREN'T placing it on publication date at 
all, but in fact had found a likely place for it in terms of both continuity 
and Paul's calendar.

So, yes.  I slink away now.  Good job, Kevin, and sorry for confusion.

    -Jeph!
No more posting for ME today, I'll tell you what...

			*	*	*

Re: Not much help, I am.
Posted by Kevin  on October 02, 2002 at 10:59:15:
In Reply to: Not much help, I am.
posted by Jeph! on October 01, 2002 at 12:55:49:

> Eh, it's a good point -- unless he's specifically referred to as Lyndon 
Johnson, there shouldn't be a specific MCP listing, as exactly WHICH President 
signed the letter wasn't specified.

> Unless it WAS specified, perhaps in a different issue?  Or perhaps Johnson's 
signature is visible in the fine-print of the letter?  I don't know -- Russ 
could probably answer that better than I.

> You make a good point, is all I'm sayin'.  ;)

No, there's no signature by Johnson. The letter just has the seal of the 
President on it.  So I'd say it's not definatively Johnson.

> Not necessarily.  What Paul is trying to do is to place the Sept. 11 issues 
on *A* Sept. 11 -- no year will be specified on the finished calendar.  To 
anchor a period of Marvel history to an actual year will bring trouble down 
the line.

> Imagine ten years from now, in 2012.  We're all still keeping track of 
Marvel comics, and the MU's calendar has inched forward -- let's say -- three 
years.

> Does that mean that it's 2004 in the Marvel Universe?  No.  It's 2012 in 
the Marvel Universe at that point, and "Sept. 11" was three years ago for 
them.  To specify a year adds confusion -- was it 9/11/2009?  Was it 
9/11/2001?  It's best to avoid making it an issue: it was simply "9/11", and 
that's all.

> That's why we can't use years as reference points.  All we're trying to do 
is preserve the "Sept. 11" aspect of the date -- NOT the "2001" aspect.

> So, in this case, we should focus on the July 4th aspect -- not necessarily 
the 2001 aspect.

> On the other hand, from what you say, the mentions of a date with Connie 
and Sharon Carter as head of SHIELD seem to mesh well with the books that 
were published in summer 2001.  So maybe it'll work out.

I read your other response titled "I'm also a dummy" but I figured out what 
you meant, so no problem.  Paul's the one contructing a calender, so he can 
use the suggestion if he cares, but I just got to noticing after rereading 
Sentinel of Liberty #1, that we don't have the July 4th, 2001 story in the 
MCP. The flashback is in the MCP, but not the 2001 story.  So I started 
pondering where best to put it.

The funny thing is that the CAP:SofL issue was written by Mark Waid in '98. 
From November 1999, it was Dan Jurgens who wrote the title. I kinda like how 
Jurgens had to "fill in the blanks" so to speak, it challenged him I'd say. 

Anyway...the actual issue that was published in July 2001 was CAP issue 45. 
One issue prior to this, Steve and Connie break up.  And from issues 39 to 
44, Steve and Connie's relationship is on the rocks, except for a brief, 
"let's make up and make love" interlude in 41, I believe.  The Maximum 
Security crossover is issue 36.  Issues 37 and 38 are spent fighting wannabe 
villian Protocide. So, strangely enough, the Sentinel of Liberty story really 
does work best if it happens before Maximum Security in Issue #36.  And since 
the calender we've already 'established' puts Maximum Security in August, 
having this little issue happen on July 4th really is concievable.  So, yes, 
Jeph, the Cap. America issues published in 2000, (specifically before Oct. 
2000, Maximum Security month) really is the best place to put the issue.

If we go by the Valentine's date referenced in CAP issue #28, then you have 
something that looks like this for the calender, (for CAP anyway):

Feb:

CAP #28-31: Sharon becomes head of Shield at end of #31.

March: 

Avengers #27: Cap temporarily leaves the Avengers.

CAP #32: A solo story that could concievably go anywhere.

April:

CAP #33-34: A two parter.  This also happens to be where USAgent gets 
wounded...after he gets healed, it's then that he adapts that new costume in 
his miniseries, am I correct?

May:

June:

July: CAP: Sentinel of Liberty #1.

Then, at some point, CAP comes back to help the Avengers fight Count Neferia, 
around issue #34 of Avengers.

That leads straight into Maximum Security in August. And yeah, I know I left 
a lot of blanks there, but uh, couldn't we squeeze in some of those guest 
appearances in other titles?

Take what you guys will from this post, I'm just fleshing out some ideas in 
my head.

So we don't count caleder years, just months and days?  But we count WW2 
dates as historical fact, (when considering CAP's WW2 chronology).  Are we 
saying that anything that happens since 1961 is a floating date, or possibly 
topical reference?  Jeph, do you agree with Paul's idea that Marvel time 
starts in 1961, and this could possibly 1979 in MU time? 

My thought was that possibly...Sept. 11th has become a set date...so maybe 
from here on out, Marvel time will go forward, with 2001 being a middle date 
in the overall timeline of the Marvel Universe.  Meaning, that we could 
possibly settle on the fact that the Marvel Universe starting up roughly 12 
to 18 years ago, at somepoint in the 80's.  But that's just my assuming.

			*	*	*

Re: CA:Sentinel of Liberty! Need help with the timeline presented...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 01, 2002 at 22:03:14:
In Reply to: CA:Sentinel of Liberty! Need help with the timeline presented...
posted by Kevin  on October 01, 2002 at 12:30:16:

> So anyway, this is the supposed appearance by Lyndon Johnson as listed in 
the MCP. Anyway, is it fair to qualify this as an appearance by Johnson?  The 
Administrator seems to deem so, but this brings back up the whole "is a 
President that appears a topical reference" debate again. I mean, we don't 
actually see Johnson.  Just because this story takes place when CAP was 
written in the late 60's, it doesn't mean the story actually took place in 
the 60's, right?  After all, that would mean 40 years have passed, and of 
course 40 years hasn't passed in the MU.  So is this President mentioned 
actually Johnson, or can we just say, "It's whatever President in power at 
the time", and be done with it.

If he's not referenced or depicted, we should not assume that the president 
was LBJ.

> My second dilemma of sorts is the other part of CA:SofL #1: The "present 
day" story. The comic opens up with the main story happening on JULY 4th, 
2001.  The comic was written in early 1998.  This was an unprecedented 
"glimpse into the near future" comic, and it was written to be fact, unlike 
the infamous "Days of Future Past" storyline from X-men.  Since we have to 
take Sept. 11th, 2001 (as has been discussed before) as an actual date, we 
should have to take the July 4th date as canon as well, correct?  Russ hadn't 
gotten around to placing this July 4th story into the MCP yet. So now that 
we have so much time documented for the supposed year 2001, (thanks to Sept. 
11th being documented), can we place the SofL issue #1 comic into the MCP 
without it causing any trouble?

Actually, the flashback in CA:SL 1 doesn't work for July 4, given it's 
relative chronological placement and the calendar provided by George 
Olshevsky for Marvel comics published at the time this continuity implant 
takes place.  I suggest April 4.

And that kind of takes the steam out of the main story in CA:SL 1 having to 
occur on July 4, especially if it's an anniversary of the flashback.

> Paul, (and the rest of you), I know we haven't really focused on making a 
timeline for before Maximum Security, (or maybe you guys have) but I'd like 
to submit the following comics as a timeframe to keep in mind.

> 
> Steve Rogers starts dating Connie around when Dan Jurgens came about Cap 
as writer. That was issue 25.  In issue 28, Steve, who apparently has missed 
every date they've attempted to go out on together, shows up at Connie's 
office with a bunch of roses and remarks something like "Since Valentine's 
day is just around the corner"...in other words, he's trying to get her to 
go out on a date on Valentine's day. Valentine's day is of course before 
July 4th. Bear with me here as I explain this.

That Valentine's Day reference conflicts with the Valentine's Day reference 
in ASM2 4, which I'm more inclined to go with, given the grand picture.

--Paul
Thanks for the calendar suggestions, Kevin.  Have I started something here? ;)

			*	*	*

Re: CA:Sentinel of Liberty! Need help with the timeline presented...
Posted by Kevin  on October 02, 2002 at 11:11:34:
In Reply to: Re: CA:Sentinel of Liberty! Need help with the timeline 
presented...
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 01, 2002 at 22:03:14:

> If he's not referenced or depicted, we should not assume that the president 
was LBJ.

Agreed.

> Actually, the flashback in CA:SL 1 doesn't work for July 4, given it's 
relative chronological placement and the calendar provided by George Olshevsky 
for Marvel comics published at the time this continuity implant takes place.  
I suggest April 4.

> And that kind of takes the steam out of the main story in CA:SL 1 having 
to occur on July 4, especially if it's an anniversary of the flashback.

This Olshevsky character has a calender for the Marvel Universe for comics 
published in the 60's and 70's? I know he did something like the MCP, but 
he had a calender too? Where can I get a copy? 

You could possibly say something like "Since Cap was the one flashing back 
to a previous July 4th from years ago, he was simply mistaken about the date." 
I'd be inclined to go with that, but the reference to July 4th, 2001 is 
written by "the narrator" It's the 1st caption on the 1st page of the comic.  
And then again, how would the living symbol of Patriotism forget a date like 
July 4th from years ago? CAP probably wouldn't forget any July 4th event.

> That Valentine's Day reference conflicts with the Valentine's Day reference 
in ASM2 4, which I'm more inclined to go with, given the grand picture.

> --Paul
> Thanks for the calendar suggestions, Kevin.  Have I started something 
here? ;)

Both Valentine Day references were published in Feb. of 2000. How exactly do 
they conflict? 

Yes, you have started something here. I'm filled with the inexplicable desire 
to map out the entire Marvel Universe, but I realize I can't, and it's 
driving me insane.

			*	*	*

Olshevsky
Posted by SKleefeld on October 02, 2002 at 14:52:08:
In Reply to: Re: CA:Sentinel of Liberty! Need help with the timeline 
presented...
posted by Kevin  on October 02, 2002 at 11:11:34:

I don't know that George's calendar was ever published per se. 

George was the guy who wrote all of those "Official Marvel Index of" books 
in the mid-80s. He listed each issue's basic info (writer, artist, etc.), did 
a brief issue synopsis, and then explained all the unusual bits. References 
to historical figures, first appearances, never-before-seen powers, etc. 

But he also put the books in chronological order by saying stuff like, 
"Fantastic Four #50 must occur in early September because it's the start of 
the school year for Johnny." He did that with every issue and basically 
created a calendar for placing all of the books. But he forced everything 
into a 10-year timeline (or so), and he ended up throwing out a lot of 
temporal references, citing them as "topical."

So I think the only way you can get Olshevsky's version of the calendar 
would be to go through all those Index books and notate all of the entries. 

That is, unless Russ or Paul have already done that.  ;)

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: CA:Sentinel of Liberty! Need help with the timeline presented...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 03, 2002 at 06:57:26:
In Reply to: Re: CA:Sentinel of Liberty! Need help with the timeline 
presented...
posted by Kevin  on October 02, 2002 at 11:11:34:

> Both Valentine Day references were published in Feb. of 2000. How exactly 
do they conflict? 

Actually, ASM2 4 has a publication date of April, 1999.  CA3 28 has a 
publication date of April, 2000.  They were published a year apart.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Valentine's Day
Posted by Kevin  on October 03, 2002 at 10:30:52:
In Reply to: Re: CA:Sentinel of Liberty! Need help with the timeline 
presented...
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 03, 2002 at 06:57:26:

Further investigation on my part reveals...you're right, they were a year 
apart. Whoops, my bad. But you do know about those publication dates, right? 
When it says April 2000, it went on sale in Feb. 2000.  Take a look at the 
latest comics you buy: The PP:SM issue for the month of Sept. has a 
publication date inside saying November is the publishing date.  I don't 
know why they do that.  Sorry, maybe you already knew that, but many people 
don't.

So this means that Valentine's Day, (like Christmas day) and any other 
holiday, can sometimes be painful to merge into one year, thus you have to 
ignore one, right?

So if you were to ignore the Valentine's day reference in CAP...then I would 
submit that CAP's calender chronology for including CAP: Sentinel of Liberty 
#1, would have to look like this:

Late June: CAP #28-31. Sharon becomes head of Sheild.

July 4th: CAP: Sentinel of Liberty #1.

Then, Cap: 32-34.

August: CAP #35, then CAP Annual 2000, (and this is followed closely by 
Maximum Security).

Of course, that's if we ignore the Valentine's day reference. But that does 
at least make CAP's chronology closer together.

			*	*	*

Forward Publishing (O/T)
Posted by SKleefeld on October 03, 2002 at 12:48:02:
In Reply to: Valentine's Day
posted by Kevin  on October 03, 2002 at 10:30:52:

> Further investigation on my part reveals...you're right, they were a year 
apart. Whoops, my bad. But you do know about those publication dates, right? 
When it says April 2000, it went on sale in Feb. 2000.  Take a look at the 
latest comics you buy: The PP:SM issue for the month of Sept. has a 
publication date inside saying November is the publishing date.  I don't 
know why they do that.  

This is a hold-over from, I believe, the 1950s. All periodicals (inlcuding 
comics) used to carry the current date/month on the cover, but some marketing 
guy got it into his head that by putting NEXT month's date on the cover, his 
magazine would look more up to date than everybody else's. The idea caught 
on, and soon, if you put the current date on a magazine, you looked like 
you were a month behind everybody. 

So, then, to look "more current," next month became two months out. Then 
three. Then four...

I think Marvel at one point was publishing books with cover dates 7 or 8 
months down the road at one point. Marvel toned back at some point in the 
90s by publishing books with mid-month dates. (October, Mid-October, 
November, Mid-November, etc.) 

But, in the end, it's an old marketing ploy that's outlived it's usefulness, 
but hasn't died yet.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Forward Publishing (O/T)
Posted by BobMM on October 03, 2002 at 15:53:44:
In Reply to: Forward Publishing (O/T)
posted by SKleefeld on October 03, 2002 at 12:48:02:


It was, in part, a trick to keep books on the rack longer. At the beginning 
of October, a shopkeeper might naturally clear anything dated 'September' 
from the shelves. But if the same issue is dated 'November', the shopkeeper 
is more likely to leave it be. It's completely irrelevant now.

When I was a kid comics were four months ahead. Now they're only two. There 
must have been a shutter-step somewhere along the way.

			*	*	*

Therak/Spider-Woman questions
Posted by Dr Bruce Banner on October 01, 2002 at 18:52:30:

Hi,

Someone was recently kind enough to inform me of Therak's appearances and 
origin in some Spider-Woman comics. Due to the overall lousiness of AOL I 
accidentally deleted the e-mail. Could someone please inform me of the issue 
numbers?

Thanks,
Dr Bruce Banner

			*	*	*

Re: Therak/Spider-Woman questions
Posted by DCW3 on October 02, 2002 at 15:06:21:
In Reply to: Therak/Spider-Woman questions
posted by Dr Bruce Banner on October 01, 2002 at 18:52:30:

Besides his AWC and IM appearances listed on the MCP, Therak also appeared 
in the four-issue Spider-Woman (vol. 2) limited series. His origin, I believe, 
was told in issue #2.

			*	*	*

John Garrett in Elektra: Assassin
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 02, 2002 at 12:29:53:

While I was analyzing the new material from the Daredevil: Fall From Grace 
trade paperback, I noticed that John Garrett's entry in the MCP doesn't 
contain his appearances from Elektra: Assassin, which is part of Elektra and 
Nick Fury's listing.

			*	*	*

Dates in the Marvel Universe
Posted by SKleefeld on October 02, 2002 at 13:11:04:

An interesting dilema, this whole dates question. How much of it is sloughed 
off as topical and how much is worth using?

I'm actually looking at the same question from a totally different angle. I 
finally got my hands on some old Human Torch comics from the 40s. (Now, don't 
get TOO jealous; they're on microfiche, not the originals.) But the whole 
WWII era stuff brings up the problem of dating the MU in a slightly different 
light.

The books were written as topical pieces. Every one of 'em. But they're 
firmly entrenched in WWII era sensibilities and ideas before America actually 
entered the war. (Human Torch #3 circa 1940 features the villainous dictators 
Adolphe Hiccup and Benny Muscle-in!) So are the dates given in those books 
"accurate"? And how do they fall in with later, historical pieces like Sgt. 
Fury and Captain Savage? Roy Thomas, in the early days of Invaders, argued 
that they were ALL valid. 

Because dates are so heavily referenced in modern re-tellings of WWII stories, 
should those be put in the actual historical context of the 1940s? I think 
most would argue "yes." Those stories are so firmly entrenched in a WWII-era 
Earth with so many actual, historical references (from vague allusions to 
Pres. Roosevelt, to naming D-Day and Pearl Harbor by date) that it's hard 
NOT to utilize the date references.

But that would imply that dates are relevant for the MU as a whole. You might 
argue for a cut-off point (i.e. everything after 1961 is topical) but how do 
you determine a valid cut-off point? Anything after a published date? 
Anything after a MU date? Anything that's referenced only beyond a 10+ year 
historical perspective? 

Or maybe time works TOTALLY differently in the MU. If we say a MU year is 
only 274 days and a day is only 18 hours, then both the MU and the real world 
could be living in 2003 with the 'correct' amount of time since 1940. 

Or maybe, the dates are perfectly relevant as is, but they're fluid. (This 
is more akin to what I subscribe to.) What I mean is that a book caption that 
reads "1961" only means it happened sometime after the book caption that 
reads "1941." And that "Five years ago" only means sometime before 
"Meanwhile." The references are only important within the context in which 
they were written, and once they're removed from that context (such as 
comparing Captain America to Fantastic Four) they become useless. 

So dates given in historical books and flashbacks are often more relevant 
because they were written within a larger context. Dates given in, say, 
Daredevil are useful only in placing the flashback pieces with respect to 
that story; and have no bearing on how much time may have passed in 
"parallel" books like Spider-Man or Elektra.

I'd like to say that we should come up with some rules for MCPers to follow, 
but the definition of "context" is going to be really vague, and I don't know 
that definition would necessarily help solve the problem.

Not sure if I'm making sense here, but they're my two. (Cents, that is.)

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Dates in the Marvel Universe
Posted by Kevin  on October 02, 2002 at 15:21:04:
In Reply to: Dates in the Marvel Universe
posted by SKleefeld on October 02, 2002 at 13:11:04:

> So dates given in historical books and flashbacks are often more relevant 
because they were written within a larger context. Dates given in, say, 
Daredevil are useful only in placing the flashback pieces with respect to 
that story; and have no bearing on how much time may have passed in "parallel" 
books like Spider-Man or Elektra.

> I'd like to say that we should come up with some rules for MCPers to follow, 
but the definition of "context" is going to be really vague, and I don't know 
that definition would necessarily help solve the problem.

There's a lot to comment on here, Sean, (and not a lot of time right now for 
me to post) but your bringing up Daredevil and Elektra got me to thinking of 
something that relates to what you've brought up here: In the last issue of 
Daredevil, Matt flashes back to what the caption reads as "10 years ago".  
In the flashback, we see Matt and Elektra lounging around in bed. This is 
obviously from when Matt was in college.  Now given that Matt dated Elektra 
IN COLLEGE BEFORE HE STARTED MASQUARADING AS DAREDEVIL, it would seem much 
more then 10 years has passed since then, (unless you're John Bryne, in 
which case only 7 years has passed since FF#1).  So how do we explain this 
10 years reference?  This also relates to what you guys were discussing 
previously about that Avengers book that references something that happened 
"5 years ago". I forgot what that debate was about.

BTW, My position is, if the event is a day significant enough that it warrants 
discussion in history books, then it's a real date we need to consider.  
That's why I'm of the opinion Sept. 11th, 2001 is a set in stone date.  
Presidents, in my opinion, should be topical, but not certain dates.  Wars, 
like Vietnam and Desert Storm, now those are things I'm uncertain about.

Oh well, I'll contribute more later. 

			*	*	*

Re: Dates in the Marvel Universe
Posted by SKleefeld on October 02, 2002 at 16:14:02:
In Reply to: Re: Dates in the Marvel Universe
posted by Kevin  on October 02, 2002 at 15:21:04:

> There's a lot to comment on here, Sean, (and not a lot of time right now 
for me to post) but your bringing up Daredevil and Elektra got me to thinking 
of something that relates to what you've brought up here: In the last issue 
of Daredevil, Matt flashes back to what the caption reads as "10 years ago".  
In the flashback, we see Matt and Elektra lounging around in bed. This is 
obviously from when Matt was in college.  Now given that Matt dated Elektra 
IN COLLEGE BEFORE HE STARTED MASQUARADING AS DAREDEVIL, it would seem much 
more then 10 years has passed since then, (unless you're John Bryne, in 
which case only 7 years has passed since FF#1).  So how do we explain this 
10 years reference?  

Well, this is exactly what I'm talking about. It's only 10 years in reference 
to the current storyline. Once you get out of Bendis' work, "10 years ago" is 
simply "a lot earlier than now." The actual time reference has no bearing 
whatsover in comparison to Frank Miller's stories. Or Jeph Loeb's stories. 
Or even, for that matter, Bendis' stories that he'll tell later. 

"10 years" is only relevant in the CONTEXT of that particular story. 

Historical pieces like Sgt. Fury or Invaders have a broader context in that 
they're examining the entirety of WWII. The old "Tales of Asgard" have the 
even broader context of ancient Norse mythology.

Twenty years from now, somebody might write a historical piece surrounding 
9-11. And if, in that piece, they say it happened "15 years ago" then we 
should NOT try to shift all the current 9-11 stories up to be "15 years ago" 
and adjust FF #1 to be "25 years ago." We simply take the new reference out 
of the context of that book and translate "15 years ago" to "some time 
before now." The 9-11 attack could still all be put together chronologically, 
but whether that occurred last year or five years ago becomes irrelevant.

Course, as I've said many times before, I'm biased against trying to fit 
this stuff to a calendar in the first place.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Dates in the Marvel Universe
Posted by Paul O'Brien on October 02, 2002 at 16:30:09:
In Reply to: Dates in the Marvel Universe
posted by SKleefeld on October 02, 2002 at 13:11:04:

> But that would imply that dates are relevant for the MU as a whole. You 
might argue for a cut-off point (i.e. everything after 1961 is topical) but 
how do you determine a valid cut-off point? 

Doesn't Marvel: The Lost Generation provide strong support for that view?  
The premise of that series is that the sliding timeline has opened a gap 
between 1961 and "ten years ago."

My view is that references to past dates fall into two categories: absolute 
references, and relative references.  Bear in mind that, aside from stories 
expressly set in the past, Marvel Comics take place in the Eternal Now.

An absolute reference is one that refers to a specific date.  Historical 
events and such forth.  If a story refers to the end of World War II, it's 
a fair bet that it really does mean 1945.

A relative reference is one that uses a specific date, but only to send the 
information "X number of years ago..."  For example, a story published in 
2000 contains a flashback to the lead character's childhood.  A narrative 
caption might place it as 1985, but that's a mere topical reference.  It 
means "fifteen years ago", and as the sliding timeline drags the main story 
into the future, the flashback will remain eternally fifteen years behind 
it.

There can be no absolute rules as to whether a story falls into one category 
or the other.  It can only be inferred from authorial intention on a case-by-
case basis.

Problems arise when a story attempts to make both types of reference at 
once, the classic example being "ten years ago, when I was serving in the 
Vietnam war..."  Sometimes this generates irreconcilable tensions because 
the character is no longer old enough to appear in the story as depicted, 
yet there is nothing else that can be substituted for the topical reference 
(eg, because the USA didn't have a draft at any later stage).  

It's at this point that I tend to cheat, shrug my shoulders and mutter about 
hypertime.  One or other reference must give.  Generally, if the two are 
irreconcilable, I would prefer the relative over the topical, because the 
characters take priority over the historical accuracy of the facts.

I believe there are a couple of passages in Olshevsky's Fantastic Four Index, 
referring to the stories where Reed and Ben were said to be World War II 
veterans, and suggesting that these stories had simply been jettisoned from 
continuity with the passage of time.  This is a rather sweeping approach, 
but if the story cannot sensibly be relocated, and the lead character cannot 
sensibly be made old enough to appear in it as depicted, I would go for 
jettisoning.  The passage of time renders the story impossible in present-
day continuity, and it's better to recognise that than to strain to force 
continuity to accept a paradox.

(If the story is absolutely necessary to continuity then, as they recently 
did with Iron Man, wholesale origin revision can be appropriate in order to 
replace the topical references with something that DOES work in the proper 
time frame for present-day publication.)

> Or maybe time works TOTALLY differently in the MU. If we say a MU year is 
only 274 days and a day is only 18 hours, then both the MU and the real world 
could be living in 2003 with the 'correct' amount of time since 1940. 

I have a rather convoluted theory about Marvel time which I think is along 
similar lines to your approach.

The simple fact is this: Marvel Universe time, taken literally, doesn't 
work.  Obviously forty years haven't passed from the characters' point of 
view, and yet all the topical references, governments, wars, global political 
alliances and such forth have shifted in line with the real world.  Forty 
Christmases have been experienced, in around ten years from the characters' 
point of view.

To try and force this into working literally requires great convolutions, 
such as forcing four years' worth of Christmas stories to take place 
simultaneously and wrenching everyone's continuity around to accommodate 
that.

I prefer to recognise the inevitable: at least as regards the period from 
Fantastic Four #1 onwards, there is no meaningful "time" as such in the 
Marvel Universe.  There is a sequence of events.  There is a given order in 
which things happen.  But it can't meaningfully be said to take any particular 
length of "time."

However, if you look at any individual snippet of Marvel continuity, time 
does work on the micro-level.  A reference to "one day ago" means one day 
ago.  "Three weeks ago" was three weeks ago.  Anything more than that is 
best elided into "some time ago" or "a long time ago" depending on the 
length, and treated as artistic licence.

Time is fluid, and bendy, and doesn't work right - but viewed from any given 
standpoint within, these references describe how characters within the Marvel 
Universe perceive the events around them at that given time.  In other words, 
trying to chronologise small blocks of continuity by characters referring to 
"this happened three weeks ago" makes sense because time is intended to be 
internally consistent at that sort of level.  Above that it bends, and time 
references are better taken in the spirit than the letter.

It will, of course, be rightly objected that if you adopt this sort of 
approach then there can never be a Marvel Universe calendar.  I agree, but 
I just don't think the Marvel Universe at its present scale and with its 
present approach to temporal continuity can be made to work in such a form.  
Matters are different with smaller continuities, or with universes such as 
the New Universe whose creators intended them to operate in "real time."  
But the Marvel Universe was never intended to be produced or read in that 
way.

What can be achieved by way of chronologising, I think, is a mutually 
consistent reading order (or story order) that works for all characters 
at once.  In theory, the Marvel Universe ought to have one, and anything 
else is a continuity error.  But trying to find some kind of absolute 
timeline in the last forty-one years of Marvel continuity is like trying to 
nail jelly to the ceiling.

			*	*	*

Re: Dates in the Marvel Universe
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 04, 2002 at 20:12:21:
In Reply to: Re: Dates in the Marvel Universe
posted by Kevin  on October 02, 2002 at 15:21:04:

I figured some of you may be waiting for a reply to this thread from me.  I 
didnt devote great gobs to time to this response (hey Im working on the 
new and improved calendar  in vain, some may say), but I hope my thoughts 
are coherent enough.

I do have to say, though, that Ive found all these recent threads to be 
very engaging, thought-provoking, and entertaining.  Sometimes its great 
to see the forest when we spend so much time on the individual trees here 
at the MCP, to dwell on the philosophical big picture that helps us (I hope) 
deal with the nitty-gritty details of chronology.

> > But that would imply that dates are relevant for the MU as a whole. You 
might argue for a cut-off point (i.e. everything after 1961 is topical) but 
how do you determine a valid cut-off point? 

> Doesn't Marvel: The Lost Generation provide strong support for that view?  
The premise of that series is that the sliding timeline has opened a gap 
between 1961 and "ten years ago."

Marvel: The Lost Generation definitely presents a challenge to the view that 
the MU has a stable time line -- basically, the notion that once something 
happens at a given time, it should always be referenced as occurring at that 
time.  Marvel seems to get that right when we're talking about pre-FF #1 
events, but then we get the "sliding timeline" that bugs the heck out of 
me.

Captain America was revived in Avengers #4 nearly 20 years after he 
disappeared toward the end of World War II.  With the sliding timeline 
concept, combined with the eternal 10-year rule, Cap is now supposed to 
have been in suspended animation for about 50 years.  Sorry, I don't 
subscribe to that notion.

For the most part, it's easy for me to ignore that sliding timeline concept 
by filtering references to "real time" years through the lens of topicality.  
Those references are made for the "benefit" of the reader to give the 
impression that events are happening as recent news does in the real world.  
But keep in mind that this is just a filter.  We're looking at another 
universe with an earth that may be a number of years behind ours (because 
stories in the MU take more time to tell than they did to occur, not because 
time actually moves more slowly in the MU.)

Should we then ignore all "real world" references?  No.  Pop culture trends, 
technological advances, geopolitical circumstances, etc. can be viewed in 
the MU as actual.  They just happen on a different timetable than they 
happen in our world.

> My view is that references to past dates fall into two categories: absolute 
references, and relative references.  Bear in mind that, aside from stories 
expressly set in the past, Marvel Comics take place in the Eternal Now.

In the sense that things are filtered through the lens of topicality, that's 
true.  But, of course, I tend to think of the Archie universe as "eternal 
now," where there is no sequence of events, where Archie is forever in high 
school, experiencing the same Christmas over and over again in different 
ways.

> An absolute reference is one that refers to a specific date.  Historical 
events and such forth.  If a story refers to the end of World War II, it's 
a fair bet that it really does mean 1945.

> A relative reference is one that uses a specific date, but only to send 
the information "X number of years ago..."  For example, a story published 
in 2000 contains a flashback to the lead character's childhood.  A narrative 
caption might place it as 1985, but that's a mere topical reference.  It 
means "fifteen years ago", and as the sliding timeline drags the main story 
into the future, the flashback will remain eternally fifteen years behind it.

Relative references sometimes work.  Sometimes they don't.  When they don't, 
it's usually because a reference/flashback is placed at a point relative to 
other, already established events.

Lets take the reference in Avengers: Celestial Quest #8 to Avengers #128 
occurring five years before.  A:CQ 8 was published in 2002, A 128 in 1974.  
Are we to believe that all contemporary MU events that were published during 
that 28-year period occurred in only five years of time in the MU?  Thats 
just not possible, unless you subscribe to the slinky theory (more below).

If we follow Olshevskys calendar (which I know is not necessarily accepted 
universally), A 128 occurred nearly five years after A 1.  That would mean 
that 10 years elapsed between A 1 and A:CQ 8.  Using Olshevskys calendar 
again, we discover Spider-Mans origin about 13 months before A 1, and FF 1 
is an undisclosed time before Amazing Fantasy #15.  Even this severely 
cramped time line is longer than the infamous 10-years-since-FF #1" rule 
calls for, and its just not tenable.  Its untenable not so much because 
a gazillion Christmases come and go but because you just cant cram that 
much activity (A 128 to A:CQ 8) into five years without seriously disrupting 
the flow of the stories as told.  To me, the five years reference in A:CQ 
8 translates to some years ago.

> There can be no absolute rules as to whether a story falls into one 
category or the other.  It can only be inferred from authorial intention on 
a case-by-case basis.

> Problems arise when a story attempts to make both types of reference at 
once, the classic example being "ten years ago, when I was serving in the 
Vietnam war..."  Sometimes this generates irreconcilable tensions because 
the character is no longer old enough to appear in the story as depicted, 
yet there is nothing else that can be substituted for the topical reference 
(eg, because the USA didn't have a draft at any later stage).  

Ah, but here youre looking at 10 years ago from the standpoint of 2002, 
not from the standpoint of the MU character and the year hes in.  This 
reference would actually work for me, as I think of current events in the 
MU as occurring more than twenty years before the real world now.

If we believe that historical references pre-FF #1 are placeable on an 
MU calendar that mirrors the real worlds, AND if we believe that considerably 
fewer years (x years) have passed in the MU since FF #1 than have passed in 
the real world, then we should consider that the current year in the MU is 
1961 + x.  (Unless you believe in the sliding timeline theory, which 
doesnt hold up for me, and requires constant retooling of established, 
canon tales  ala Iron Mans origin.)

Now, lets say that x = 18 (sorry, its got to be more than 10).  That 
would mean the current MU year is 1979.  But wait, you say!  Terrorists 
shouldnt be destroying the World Trade Center in the late 70s, and Dubya 
shouldnt be president in 1979.  Again, I would suggest shaking off our 
real world experience and being open to the possibility that these things 
ARE late 70s events for the MU.

> It's at this point that I tend to cheat, shrug my shoulders and mutter 
about hypertime.  One or other reference must give.  Generally, if the two 
are irreconcilable, I would prefer the relative over the topical, because 
the characters take priority over the historical accuracy of the facts.

This has never been an argument with me.  Relative sequencing is essential 
to character histories.  Thats why some absolute time references must be 
dismissed as topical.  In other cases, absolute references can be considered 
canon and can help determine relative chronologies whenever theres room for 
interpretation.

> I believe there are a couple of passages in Olshevsky's Fantastic Four 
Index, referring to the stories where Reed and Ben were said to be World 
War II veterans, and suggesting that these stories had simply been jettisoned 
from continuity with the passage of time.  This is a rather sweeping approach, 
but if the story cannot sensibly be relocated, and the lead character cannot 
sensibly be made old enough to appear in it as depicted, I would go for 
jettisoning.  The passage of time renders the story impossible in present-
day continuity, and it's better to recognise that than to strain to force 
continuity to accept a paradox.

Who knows how many comics wed have to remove from the MCP if this approach 
is used?  And how many retcons will we have to place in the MCP?  Can a 
canon story be rendered non-canon without a suitable explanation within a 
storyline?  Sometimes a canon story can be discredited if its revealed to 
be a lie (think Immortus) or a dream or such.  I hesitate jettisoning stories 
because of a sliding timeline.

Regarding Reed and Ben... I cant locate the WWII reference and how it was 
supposed to work into their relative chronologies.  If that were canon, 
theyd have to have been at least 34 at the time of the fateful rocket ride 
and at least 52 now (if 18 years have passed since FF #1 in the MU).  Some 
folks wouldnt consider that to be too old, but time continues to pass in 
the MU and how many active years are left?  Heres the real problem with 
Marvel time: time passes and people age (unlike the Archieverse), yet these 
are marketable characters who have to endure.  And while you may argue that 
Marvels with superpowers age slower than normal humans, we still have a 
cast of non-powered supporting characters who have been around for ages and 
many will continue to be.  Just how old is Aunt May these days?

Then theres the most paradoxical character in the MU when it comes to 
aging  the eternally youthful Franklin Richards.  According to Olshevsky, 
he was born three years before the aforementioned A 128.  Adding that five-
year period noted earlier to A 128 to reach A:CQ 8 would make Franklin 
eight or so now.  That seems to be the age hes portrayed currently.  But 
while that adds up, the squishing of 28 years of published Marvel events 
into five years in the MU doesnt add up.  Were left with a Franklin whos 
a bit older than he appears.  Ive shared my own theory about Franklin on 
this board before; with a guy who can control reality, anythings possible.  
Well, let me qualify that.  Id sooner accept his unnoticed, slow aging than 
Franklin wreaking havoc with the entire time continuum for no apparent 
reason.  But heres a story for a Marvel writer to tackle: Franklin Richards  
Master of Time.

> (If the story is absolutely necessary to continuity then, as they recently 
did with Iron Man, wholesale origin revision can be appropriate in order to 
replace the topical references with something that DOES work in the proper 
time frame for present-day publication.)

Okay, back to mucking with canon stories.  I saw no reason to alter the 
original story, with the early Vietnam context.  I just dont see a need 
for proper time frame for present-day publication.  In my mind, Vietnam 
didnt happen 30-40 years ago in the MU.

Okay, you say...but dont you have to deal with how Marvel creators seem 
to handling time, even if it doesnt make logical sense to you?  Good 
question.  Id really like Marvel creators (including early ones) to chime 
in on how they perceive the nature of time in the MU.

> > Or maybe time works TOTALLY differently in the MU. If we say a MU year 
is only 274 days and a day is only 18 hours, then both the MU and the real 
world could be living in 2003 with the 'correct' amount of time since 1940. 

It all depends how much were willing to suspend our disbelief.  Theres a 
new book out that explores the fantastic nature of science in comic books.  
If Hank Pym can grow from ant to giant as he does and a radioactive spider 
bite can create a superhuman (or did it?), is it really that far-fetched 
for time in the MU to defy all convention?

Perhaps not, but because that sequential march of events, that continuity, 
is so central to Marvel comics, and because sequence inevitably occurs 
against a backdrop of time, it would be nice to be able to relate to the 
fabric of time in the MU.  To me, a 365-day MU year with one non-topical 
Christmas is more important than thinking that current comics are happening 
as Im reading them.

> I have a rather convoluted theory about Marvel time which I think is along 
similar lines to your approach.

> The simple fact is this: Marvel Universe time, taken literally, doesn't 
work.  Obviously forty years haven't passed from the characters' point of 
view, and yet all the topical references, governments, wars, global political 
alliances and such forth have shifted in line with the real world.  Forty 
Christmases have been experienced, in around ten years from the characters' 
point of view.

> To try and force this into working literally requires great convolutions, 
such as forcing four years' worth of Christmas stories to take place 
simultaneously and wrenching everyone's continuity around to accommodate 
that.

I dont think anyone ever recommended sacrificing character continuity for 
the sake of making all topical references work.  Youre right; you cant 
take all temporal references in the MU at face value, but does that mean 
throwing out the concept of an absolute time line that progresses at a 
constant rate?

> I prefer to recognise the inevitable: at least as regards the period from 
Fantastic Four #1 onwards, there is no meaningful "time" as such in the 
Marvel Universe.  There is a sequence of events.  There is a given order 
in which things happen.  But it can't meaningfully be said to take any 
particular length of "time."

> However, if you look at any individual snippet of Marvel continuity, time 
does work on the micro-level.  A reference to "one day ago" means one day 
ago.  "Three weeks ago" was three weeks ago.  Anything more than that is 
best elided into "some time ago" or "a long time ago" depending on the 
length, and treated as artistic licence.

> Time is fluid, and bendy, and doesn't work right - but viewed from any 
given standpoint within, these references describe how characters within 
the Marvel Universe perceive the events around them at that given time.  
In other words, trying to chronologise small blocks of continuity by 
characters referring to "this happened three weeks ago" makes sense because 
time is intended to be internally consistent at that sort of level.  Above 
that it bends, and time references are better taken in the spirit than the 
letter.

Ah, but those three weeks ago references do add up, dont they?  If you 
can accept them on some micro-level, how can they not be accepted when 
theyre accumulated into a longer time frame?

What you may be proposing here is that slinky theory to which I referred 
earlier.  Namely, the theory posits that time in the MU acts like a slinky, 
or perhaps more like a caterpillar  it expands and contracts while moving 
slowly forward.  Individual events occupy set points on the slinky/caterpillar 
and those events are always moving, both in their relation to other events 
(other points on the expanding and contracting body) and in relation to the 
space (absolute timetable around the body.  The only thing you can really 
count on in this model is the relative position of one point on the body 
with others (first, second, third, etc.).  Point A comes before point B, 
which comes before point C.  At one time, a year separated points A and B, 
but now only a month separate them.  At one time, points B and C occupied 
space in the year 1969, but now they occupy space in the year 1999.  Very 
metaphysical, but I wonder whether its really necessary if were willing 
to accept some temporal references as topical.

> It will, of course, be rightly objected that if you adopt this sort of 
approach then there can never be a Marvel Universe calendar.  I agree, but 
I just don't think the Marvel Universe at its present scale and with its 
present approach to temporal continuity can be made to work in such a form.  
Matters are different with smaller continuities, or with universes such as 
the New Universe whose creators intended them to operate in "real time."  
But the Marvel Universe was never intended to be produced or read in that 
way.

I cant speak for the creators of the MU myself.  While I do doubt that 
they never intended time in the MU to pass at the same rate as real time, 
I do like to think that, in their efforts to create a fundamentally 
believable universe with some kind of established constants, their model 
of time mirrored the way we perceive time in the real world.

> What can be achieved by way of chronologising, I think, is a mutually 
consistent reading order (or story order) that works for all characters at 
once.  In theory, the Marvel Universe ought to have one, and anything else 
is a continuity error.  But trying to find some kind of absolute timeline 
in the last forty-one years of Marvel continuity is like trying to nail 
jelly to the ceiling.

But...I just dropped a bundle on this nifty new nail gun!

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Dates in the Marvel Universe
Posted by Paul O'Brien on October 05, 2002 at 07:58:54:
In Reply to: Re: Dates in the Marvel Universe
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 04, 2002 at 20:12:21:

>>Youre right; you cant take all temporal references in the MU at face 
value, but does that mean throwing out the concept of an absolute time line 
that progresses at a constant rate?

I think this is our fundamental difference of approach.  I don't think my 
approach IS "throwing out" the concept of an absolute time line, becuase I 
don't think it was ever there to start with.  From that perspective, an 
absolute timeline is a framework that you're trying to impose onto a 
universe that was never really meant to work that way.

>> Ah, but those three weeks ago references do add up, dont they?  If 
you can accept them on some micro-level, how can they not be accepted 
when theyre accumulated into a longer time frame?

That's my point.  They don't add up because "real" time only works on the 
micro-level.  Once you get above that, all logic collapses beneath the 
weight of internal contradictions.

I'm comfortable with that.  Marvel time doesn't make sense on the macro- 
scale, and so I'm happier with a framework which simply acknowledges that 
as a fact of life.  Total logical integrity is something that Marvel chose 
to sacrifice in order to maximise storytelling freedom, so an "accurate" 
model of Marvel time ought to be equally nonsensical in those respects!

To be clear: I think you can point to the Marvel Universe having a passage 
of time, as it's obviously meant to be read in that way.  There's a 
direction, but there's no real unit of measurement.  It's like a graph with 
no numbers on the axis.

			*	*	*

Re: Dates in the Marvel Universe
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 05, 2002 at 20:27:31:
In Reply to: Re: Dates in the Marvel Universe
posted by Paul O'Brien on October 05, 2002 at 07:58:54:

> >>Youre right; you cant take all temporal references in the MU at face 
value, but does that mean throwing out the concept of an absolute time line 
that progresses at a constant rate?

> I think this is our fundamental difference of approach.  I don't think my 
approach IS "throwing out" the concept of an absolute time line, becuase I 
don't think it was ever there to start with.  From that perspective, an 
absolute timeline is a framework that you're trying to impose onto a universe 
that was never really meant to work that way.

It seems that you have inside knowledge about the intentions of the creators 
of the MU...

> >> Ah, but those three weeks ago references do add up, dont they?  If 
you can accept them on some micro-level, how can they not be accepted when 
theyre accumulated into a longer time frame?

> That's my point.  They don't add up because "real" time only works on the 
micro-level.  Once you get above that, all logic collapses beneath the weight 
of internal contradictions.

I can live with some contradictions and chalk them up to topical references, 
as topicality from the standpoint of the reader seems to be the origin of 
most of these contradictions.  Indeed you'll find a number of contradictions 
on any calendar I could attempt to make.  But I like nailing that jello to 
the wall.  It enhances my enjoyment of the MU.

> I'm comfortable with that.  Marvel time doesn't make sense on the macro- 
scale, and so I'm happier with a framework which simply acknowledges that 
as a fact of life.  Total logical integrity is something that Marvel chose 
to sacrifice in order to maximise storytelling freedom, so an "accurate" 
model of Marvel time ought to be equally nonsensical in those respects!

As I mentioned, it would be great to hear from Marvel creators about their 
models of time.  And what about George Olshevsky?  Whatever happened to him?

> To be clear: I think you can point to the Marvel Universe having a passage 
of time, as it's obviously meant to be read in that way.  There's a direction, 
but there's no real unit of measurement.  It's like a graph with no numbers 
on the axis.

I can certainly understand your theory.  It does make sense to say that it 
makes no sense to make sense of nonsense (say what?)  But I guess in the 
end we'll just agree to disagree on this.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Dates in the Marvel Universe
Posted by Administrator on October 05, 2002 at 21:34:53:
In Reply to: Re: Dates in the Marvel Universe
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 05, 2002 at 20:27:31:

> As I mentioned, it would be great to hear from Marvel creators about their 
models of time.  And what about George Olshevsky?  Whatever happened to him?

The story goes that he got disillusioned, either with comics in general, or 
Marvel in particular, and sold all his books. The last time I ran across 
his name, he was posting in some of the paleontology newsgroups.

			*	*	*

FOREARM...FRIDAY...FRIGGA
Posted by Arthur Stein on October 02, 2002 at 19:20:41:

New entries marked **

FOREARM
**NM 86
NM 87
NM 100

FRIDAY
**PP1
**PP2
**PP3
**PP4
**PP5
**PP9
**PP10
**PP18
**PP19
**PP22
**PP24
**PP25
**PP26
**PP50
**PP51
PP 56
.
.
.
PP 62
**NW 65   
NW 73-BTS

FRIGGA
T 289
**T 294
**T 295
**T 296
T 301-FB-BTS

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent 
piece of information engineering! 

			*	*	*

Couple more issues to toss into The List
Posted by SKleefeld on October 03, 2002 at 22:23:17:

Just bumped into a couple more things that made for some fairly easy 
placements...

Alias #16 -- Direct tie-in/overlap with the Daredevil issue where Matt's 
visited by Black Widow. (DD2 #36? I can't find the issue offhand.) There's 
also an escaped Dr. Ocotpus being chased by Spidey and Human Torch.

Spider-Man's Tangled Web #18 -- Jeph and I decided to omit these from our 
Kang War discussion since it was clear (from the Crusher Hogan origin story) 
that they were all over the map chronologically. But we have a substantial 
appearance by Typeface -- who's only been around for a year or two -- and 
a cameo of the Thing sitting at a train station. Now the only time I recall 
Ben being at a train station AT ALL, much less in the past couple of years 
is in Freakshow #1. Since there's nothing else to really tie this into 
Marvel continuity, that seems like a decent place to drop this issue.

Given all the hubbub we've been raising lately, I figured I could use a 
couple of no-brainers.

- Sean 

			*	*	*

Re: Couple more issues to toss into The List
Posted by Antonio Gavio on October 04, 2002 at 01:43:26:
In Reply to: Couple more issues to toss into The List
posted by SKleefeld on October 03, 2002 at 22:23:17:

> Alias #16 -- Direct tie-in/overlap with the Daredevil issue where Matt's 
visited by Black Widow. (DD2 #36? I can't find the issue offhand.) There's 
also an escaped Dr. Ocotpus being chased by Spidey and Human Torch.

Let's also point out that Ant-Man has Avengers status in this issue. 

> Spider-Man's Tangled Web #18 -- Jeph and I decided to omit these from our 
Kang War discussion since it was clear (from the Crusher Hogan origin story) 
that they were all over the map chronologically. But we have a substantial 
appearance by Typeface -- who's only been around for a year or two -- and a 
cameo of the Thing sitting at a train station. Now the only time I recall 
Ben being at a train station AT ALL, much less in the past couple of years i
s in Freakshow #1. Since there's nothing else to really tie this into Marvel 
continuity, that seems like a decent place to drop this issue.

Also cameos by Ghost Rider, Chamber and Wolverine.

			*	*	*

Re: Couple more issues to toss into The List
Posted by Paul O'Brien on October 04, 2002 at 03:19:56:
In Reply to: Re: Couple more issues to toss into The List
posted by Antonio Gavio on October 04, 2002 at 01:43:26:

> Let's also point out that Ant-Man has Avengers status in this issue. 

He seems to already be a reservist by the start of the Geoff Johns run, 
though.  If so, I wouldn't place too much weight on that either way.

Incidentally, when Matt gives his press conference in Daredevil #36, he's 
flanked by Foggy Nelson, Luke Cage and an unidentified woman.  Alias #16 
strongly suggests that she must be Jessica Jones.

			*	*	*

Re: Couple more issues to toss into The List
Posted by AndyHolcombe on October 05, 2002 at 12:12:01:
In Reply to: Re: Couple more issues to toss into The List
posted by Paul O'Brien on October 04, 2002 at 03:19:56:

> Alias #16 strongly suggests that she must be Jessica Jones.

Shouldn't that be Alias #15.

			*	*	*

Re: Couple more issues to toss into The List
Posted by Paul O'Brien on October 06, 2002 at 04:41:03:
In Reply to: Re: Couple more issues to toss into The List
posted by AndyHolcombe on October 05, 2002 at 12:12:01:

Yup, quite right.

			*	*	*

New Calendar coming
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 04, 2002 at 20:54:54:

For those who are interested, the newest revision of the recent Marvel 
calendar will be posted soon.  I'll be interested in feedback, not only in 
cases where I've still managed to mess up relative chronological placement, 
but especially to fill in blanks, especially those that help determine 
placement.

I would really appreciate volunteers to contribute relevant information 
about issues of titles I don't have.  These include: Hulk, Daredevil, 
Wolverine, Punisher, Elektra, Alias, Chamber, Vision, Brotherhood, and 
Tangled Web.  Such information would cover: time elapsed in the stories, 
time references to other issues and titles, character appearances that help 
place the stories, birthdays/ anniversaries/holidays, weather/seasons, phases 
of the moon, school references, dates and days of the week, etc.

Thanks.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: New Calendar coming
Posted by Kevin  on October 07, 2002 at 11:09:55:
In Reply to: New Calendar coming
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 04, 2002 at 20:54:54:

I could be of help with Hulk (prior to Bruce Jones taking over) and Daredevil, 
and that's about it. I don't collect Electra, so depending on how connected 
the Electra and Daredevil titles are, I don't know how much assist I could 
offer there.  Still, Electra is only in 3 issues of the current storyline, 
so maybe that wouldn't be to much of a problem.

How far back did you need info on these titles? 

			*	*	*

Re: New Calendar coming
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 08, 2002 at 07:25:18:
In Reply to: Re: New Calendar coming
posted by Kevin  on October 07, 2002 at 11:09:55:

Thanks for volunteering, Kevin!  I'm concentrating on the period since just 
prior to Maximum Security, so information about any Hulk adventures set 
during this timeframe would be helpful.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: New Calendar coming
Posted by Kevin  on October 08, 2002 at 08:15:42:
In Reply to: Re: New Calendar coming
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 08, 2002 at 07:25:18:

Heh. No problem. I got all of those issues, (I was very much into Hulk during 
that period).  I'll try and review those tonight, and post tomorrow my 
findings. 

			*	*	*

Re: New Calendar coming
Posted by Kevin  on October 10, 2002 at 11:21:49:
In Reply to: Re: New Calendar coming
posted by Kevin  on October 08, 2002 at 08:15:42:

I told you I'd post them yesterday, well...I've gotten busy with some 
personal stuff...I did find time to go through most of my Hulk comics from 
that period, and I'll post my complete findings...within the next 24 to 48 
hours.  Sorry for the delays, but I've discovered there is some stuff in 
their you may need to take notice of when composing a calender.

			*	*	*

Elektra - the early years
Posted by DCW3 on October 05, 2002 at 16:33:33:

I'd like to offer a revised chronology for Elektra's early years. This 
list only encompasses Daredevil #168 & 190 and Elektra: Assassin #1. There 
are probably a number of other issues that could be fit in here (the MCP 
lists Elektra #18 and Elektra: Root of Evil #3) or contradict this 
chronology; my hope is that my framework will help people with these issues 
to find a place for them to fit. 

All appearances FB:

E:A 1 - Elektra's birth (possibly BTS; we only see Elektra in a cutaway 
inside her mother)

      - Several scenes of Elektra as a young child with her father, ending 
with her attempting suicide.
      - Elektra, age 12, training with her sensei.

DD 168 - Elektra meets Matt Murdock at Columbia and dates him for several 
months. Elektra's father is killed and she leaves America after the funeral.

DD 190 - Elektra travels to the Chaste's mountaintop HQ to train with them. 
(Note: E:A 1 seems to imply that Elektra trained with Stick before her 
father's death, but DD 190 seems much more clear in placing it afterwards.)

E:A 1 - Elektra, training with Stick.

DD 190 - Stick tells Elektra she must leave.

E:A 1 - Elektra leaves the Chaste.

DD 190 - Elektra's sensei refuses to help her locate the Hand. The Hand take 
Elektra to their lair. After Elektra kills her sensei, she is welcomed into 
the Hand.

E:A 1 - Continues directly from the flashback in DD 190. Elektra is twenty 
years old. The Jonin continues her initiation into the Hand.

      - Sometime later, Elektra encounters the Beast (and we ain't talkin' 
about Hank McCoy, kids) and kills three Hand warriors.

      - Not depicted - sometime afterwards, Elektra leaves the Hand.

Again, this is just a preliminary structure, and I hope others will be able 
to add to/correct it.

			*	*	*

Paul's new calendar...
Posted by Administrator on October 05, 2002 at 23:57:37:

Paul has asked me to htmlize his most recent calendar and post it, so here 
goes...

PRELUDE (BEFORE END OF JULY)Just some notes I dont want to lose.

Iron Man v3 #47  FB #1 (beginning)

Same day as IM@ 2000.  The Sons of Yinsen dig up the sentient Iron Man armor 
and it seems to come to life (the result of Jocastas Ultron-infected 
programming).

Iron Man v3 #48  FB

The Sons of Yinsen (apparently without Sun Tao) retrieve Ultrons head under 
orders from the pre-programmed sentient armor, mistaken to be Yinsen come 
back to life.  I would say this happens immediately after the beginning of 
the first flashback in IM3 47.

Iron Man v3 #47  FB #1 (end)

After downloading his head into the sentient armor, Ultron spends the next 
several days having the Sons of Yinsen prepare a batch of armors and a 
suspicious Sun-Tao is dealt with.  After this flashback comes the order to 
go public and establish the Church of Yinsen, which, after a period of "a 
few weeks" is seen in IM3 46.

Maximum Security: Dangerous Planet #1 FB #3

One day.

Maximum Security: Dangerous Planet #1 (pages 1-12)

Perhaps the same day as the third flashback in MSDP 1 or the day after.  It 
is "weeks" before MSDP 1 pg. 13-15.

END OF JULY

X-Men Forever #1
X-Men Forever #2
X-Men Forever #3
X-Men Forever #4
X-Men Forever #5
X-Men Forever #6 (page 1-page 33, panel 1)

These issues occur over the course of a day (although the main characters 
do some time traveling).  It is "a week" before XMF 6 pg. 33, pn. 2-5, "two 
weeks" before XMF 6 pg. 34, "three weeks" before XMF 6 pg. 35, and "four 
weeks" before XMF 6 pg. 36.  Cable is here before X2 105.

X-Men v2 #105

One night with a full moon.  Cable is here after XMF 6 pg. 1-33.  According 
to Destinys journal, it is "July."  It is during a presidential election 
year (of course, weve seen how every year in the MU is a presidential 
election year ;)).

AUGUST

Avengers Annual 2000

One day.  Long enough after TB 00/1 for Patsy to write and publish a book 
about her life.  Given the placement of TB 00/1 between TB 37 and 38, the 
time frame established between TB 37 and 38, and the placement of HC 1-3 
after this annual and before A3 31, that leaves only several days for that 
book to hit the shelves after Patsys return from the dead.  Perhaps Patsy 
had a manuscript ready with a publisher lined up before her death and only 
had to add a new final chapter.  Even so, this would be a testimony for the 
efficiency of the publishing business in the MU!

Hellcat #1
Hellcat #2
Hellcat #3

HC 1-3 occur during one night with a full moon, after A 00.  This series 
cannot occur between A3 34 and MAXSEC 1, since Simon is in a restorative 
tank during that time, and it cannot occur after MAXSEC 1, since there is 
no time between then and Clints incarceration in TB 50 for this story to 
happen.  Simon must appear here before his reported absence in A3 31, and 
since Beast is here too, I propose that HC 1-3 occur a week before A3 31.

X-Men Forever #6 (page 33, panels 2-5)

One day, "a week" after XMF 6 pg. 1-33.  Jean and Iceman are here and appear 
next in Maximum Security crossovers.

Maximum Security: Dangerous Planet #1 (page 13, page 1-page 15, panel 2)

One day, "weeks" after MSDP 1 pg. 1-12.  It is "days" before MSDP 1 pg. 
15-21.

Thunderbolts #38

A school day, "three weeks" after the flashback within a flashback in TB 
37 FB, so its probably a little more than two weeks after TB 37.  This 
issue must occur after HC 3.  Green grass and trees.

Thunderbolts #39

Same day as TB 38.

Thunderbolts #61 FB

Same day as TB 39.

Thunderbolts #59  FB (page 13, panels 1-3)

Same day as TB 39; shortly before TB 59 FB pg. 13-14;

Thunderbolts #40

Same day as TB 39.  Full moon.

Thunderbolts #41

Same night as TB 40.  Full moon.

Thunderbolts #42

One day, perhaps the day after TB 41.  This issue must occur after A3 31 
and it is "a few days" before A3 32.

Avengers v3 #31

One day.  The Vision returns.  The Beast reports that Wonder Man has been 
missing for "almost a week." The suggestion here is that Hank and Simon last 
hung out together in Avengers Two, but it is possible they decided to chum 
around following HC 3, and it is HC 3 that occurred a week before this issue.  
It is after IM 00 and "a few days" before A3 32.  I place this story between 
H 00 and  TB 42.

Thor v2 #28
Thor v2 #29

T2 28-29 occurs during one day.  We see outdoor swimming weather wherever the 
Wrecking Crew is.

Hulk Annual 2000

One day and the next day.  Vision is back with the Avengers but She-Hulk 
hasnt left the team yet and Wonder Man is not present.  I place this annual 
during the few days between A3 31 and 32.  Thor is not present.

Avengers Infinity #1
Avengers Infinity #2
Avengers Infinity #3
Avengers Infinity #4

AI 1-4 occur during one day, which Im inclined to believe is the day after 
T2 28-29.

Maximum Security: Dangerous Planet #1 (page 15, panel 3-page 21, panel 2)

Same day as AI 1.  It is "days" after MSDP 1 pg. 13-15 and "a few days" before 
MSDP 1 pg. 21-22.

Fantastic Four v3 #35
Fantastic Four v3 #36

FF3 35-36 occur during one day.  These issues happen after the "summer" story 
in FF3 33-34 and (according to Russ) between the end of PPSM 00/2 and ASM2 
22.

X-Men Forever #6 (page 34)

One day.  Juggernaut appears here "two weeks" after XMF 6 pg. 1-33.

Avengers v3 #32 (page 1- page 10, panel 2)

One summer afternoon, "a few days" after TB 42 and A3 31. This issue must 
occur after CA3 31 and H 00.  IM 99 is referred to as having occurred 
"recently." She-Hulk leaves the Avengers as Black Widow comes to alert them 
about Madame Masque.

Thunderbolts #43  FB

Same day as A3 32 pg. 1-10.  Black Widow has a run-in with Maggia faction and 
Cyclone. 

Thunderbolts #43 (pages 1-13)

Same night as TB 43-FB into the next morning.  Black Widow contacts the 
Thunderbolts.  It is "months" after Av 399.

Avengers v3 #32 (page 10, panel 3 - page 22)

Same day as the end of TB 43 pg. 1-13.  Avengers in Nevada desert face Grim 
Reaper and Nefaria.

Thunderbolts #43 (pages 14-22)

Same day as A3 32 pg. 10-22.  Thunderbolts in Central America.

Avengers v3 #33

Same day as TB 43.  Green grass and trees in New Jersey.  Full moon.

Thunderbolts #44

Same night as A3 33.  Green trees in Alberta.  Full moon.

Avengers v3 #34

Same night as TB 44, sometime before MAXSEC 1.  It is "weeks" before TB 47.  
Full moon.

Thunderbolts #45  FB

Same night as A3 34.  It is "three weeks" before TB 45.

Maximum Security: Dangerous Planet #1 (page 21, panel 3-page 22, panel 6)

One day.  It is "a few days" after MSDP 1 pg. 15-21 and "five days" before 
the start of MSDP 1 pg. 23-40.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #22 (pages 1-11)
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #26  FB #4
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #22 (pages 12-22)

One day, before SM:RGG 1 pg. 16-22.  This battle between Spidey and Sandman 
is referred to as having occurred "the other week" in PPSM2 26.

X-Men Forever #6 (page 35)

One day.  The Toad appears here "three weeks" after XMF 6 pg. 1-33.

Maximum Security: Dangerous Planet #1 (pages 23-40)

One day and the next day, beginning "five days" after MSDP 1 pg. 21-22.

Maximum Security: Dangerous Planet #1  FB #2: beginning

Day after the end of MSDP 1 pg. 23-40.

Maximum Security #1 FB #2: end

One day, not long after the beginning of this flashback.  It is "two weeks" 
before Gam2 23.

Maximum Security #2  FB

One day, between MSDP 1 pg. 23-40 and T2 30.

X-Men Forever #6 (page 36)

One night.  Mystique appears here "four weeks" after XMF 6 pg. 1-33.  Full 
moon.

X-Men v2 #106

One day during a presidential campaign season.  Toad is here after XMF 6 pg. 
35.

SEPTEMBER

Spider-Man: Revenge of the Green Goblin #1 (pages 16-22)

One rainy day, between PPSM2 22 and 23 and before ASM2 23.

Captain Marvel v5 #12 (beginning)

One day, shortly before the end of CM5 12.

Deadpool v2 #44

One day.  It is after IM 00.  We see green grass and trees.

Black Panther v3 #23

Occurring on a "Saturday," I place this the day after DP2 44.  This issue 
occurs during the year before BP3 42.

Iron Man v3 #33

Probably the same night as BP3 23 and the next day.  It is shortly after IM 
00.  It is also after the end of the flashback within a flashback in IM3 35.

Iron Man v3 #34

The same night as the end of IM3 33 end.  Full moon.

Black Panther v3 #24 (beginning)

Probably the day after BP3 23.  It is probably the same day as IM3 34.  
TChalla is "way over 30."

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #22

Probably the same night as IM3 34 and the next morning.  It is "a few weeks" 
after ASM2 12.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #23

Probably the same day as the end of ASM2 22.  It is after SM:RGG 1 pg. 16-22.  
It is "fifteen years" after the flashbacks in this issue.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #24 (beginning)

The same day as ASM2 23.

Maximum Security #1

Probably the same day as the beginning of ASM2 24.  It is probably day after 
IM3 34.  This issue occurs after A3 34 and the end of the second flashback in 
this issue.  It is long enough after the first flashback for U.S.Agent to 
settle into his new assignment.  Spideys appearance here must be a new scene, 
not a tape of his encounter with aliens in ASM2 24, judging by the setting and 
the slightly different appearance of the Badoon in this issue from the aliens 
in ASM2 24.  Spidey may appear here while on his way home from the encounter 
in ASM2 24.

Thor v2 #30

The same day as MAXSEC 1.  It is after MAXSEC 2FB.  Since MAXSEC 1 occurs 
after the MSDP 1 pg. 23-40, which occurs a week or so after AI, which in turn 
follows T2 29, then Malekith must have waited more than a week to release the 
might of the Casket of Ancient Winters.  Why?  Who knows with a lunatic like 
Malekith?

Iron Man v3 #35

It must be the same day as MAXSEC 1.  It is "a few hours"  probably the day 
after  IM3 34.  We see green grass and trees in Nebraska.

Black Panther v3 #24 (end)

The day after the beginning of BP3 24.  It must be the same day as IM3 35.

Black Panther v3 #25  FB

The same day as BP3 24 and IM3 35.  It is "more than a year" after BP3 1.

Black Panther v3 #25 (beginning)

The same day as BP3 25FB.  It is before UX 387.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #24 (end)

The same night as the beginning of ASM2 24.  It must occur before PPSM2 23.

Uncanny X-Men #386

Probably the same night as the end of ASM2 24.  This story occurs during 
hurricane season, and late enough for a hurricane named "Sam."  Jean appears 
here after XMF 6.

Uncanny X-Men #387

Probably the day after UX 386.  It is after the beginning of BP3 25 and 
"months" after the beginning of UX 379.

Black Panther v3 #25 (end)

The same day as UX 387.  It is long enough after the beginning of BP3 25 for 
TChalla to change Wakandas monetary standard, return nationalized assets, 
and force a State Department hearing.  A day should do it, dontcha think? ;)

Black Panther v3 #26

The same day as BPI3 25 end.  We see snow in Wakanda, which I would say is 
certainly possible in October.

Black Panther v3 #27

The same day as BP3 26.  We see green grass and trees in DC.

Bishop: The Last X-Man #15

Probably the same day as the end of BP3 25.  It is after UX 387 and  before 
MAXSEC 2 and X 107.

Captain Marvel v5 #12 (end)

Probably the same day as BTLXM 15.  It is shortly after the beginning of CM5 
12.

Captain Marvel v5 #13

The same day as CMIV 12 end.  This issue must occur before TB 45.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #23 (beginning)

Probably the same day as CM5 13.  This must occur after the end of ASM2 24 
end.

Thunderbolts #45

It must be the same day as CM5 13.  It is "three weeks" after TB 45-FB and 
"two days" before TB 46.  The scenes shown on Technos screens must be pre-
recorded.

Captain America v3 #36

The same night as TB 45.  It is after MAXSEC 1.  Full moon.

Maximum Security #2

The same night as CA3 36, TB 45, CM5 12, and BTLXM 15.  It is before A3 35.  
The Avengers screens must be showing recorded scenes that occurred recently, 
especially since Genis should be on the moon at this point.  Chronological 
analysis suggests that Iron Man, the FF, and the Surfer have been dealing 
with Ego for a day or so.

U.S.Agent v2 #3  FB

One day.  This flashback featuring the Power Broker occurs sometime during 
Maximum Security.  I just stuck it here.

Hulk v3 #21

Probably the day after MAXSEC 2.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #23 (end)

The day after the beginning of PPSM2 23.  It must be after the end of ASM2 24.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #24

Same night as the end of PPSM2 23.

Marvel Knights #1
Marvel Knights #2
Marvel Knights #3

MK 1-3 occur during one night.

X-Men: The Search for Cyclops #1
X-Men: The Search for Cyclops #2
X-Men: The Search for Cyclops #3

These three issues occur one night and the next day.  It is "months" after 
X2 98.  Cyclops returns from "death" in this series, so it must occur after 
the assumption of his death as voiced in UX 387.  To allow time for Scott to 
return and be present at 9-11, I inserted this series right after UX 387, 
during Maximum Security.  It would explain Jeans and Nathans absences in 
X2 107 and the beginning of MAXSEC 3.

X-Men v2 #107  FB

One day.  It is after UX 387.

X-Men v2 #107

Same day as X 107-FB.  It is after BTLXM 15 and "a few weeks" before UX 390.  
Full moon.  Jean and Cable are not present; I have them in X:SC at this time.

X-Men Unlimited #29

Same day as X 107.  It is probably the day after A3 35.  We see green grass 
and trees in New York.

Gambit v2 #23

Probably the same day as XU 29.  It is "two weeks" after the end of the second 
flashback in MAXSEC 1.

Marvel Knights #4

Probably the same night as XU 29 and Gam2 23.  It is probably the night of 
the day after MK 3.

Marvel Knights #5
Marvel Knights #6

MK 5-6 occur the same night as MK 5.  Both issues show a full moon.

X-Men: The Search for Cyclops #4

Probably the day after X:SC 3.

Avengers v3 #35

One day.

Maximum Security #3 (beginning)

Same day as A3 35.  Probably the day after MK 6, XU 29, and Gam2 24.  It is 
"a week" before the end of MAXSEC 3 end.  Again, Jean and Nathan are not 
present.

Gambit v2 #24

Same day as Gam2 23.  Green trees are shown.

Thunderbolts #46

It must be same day as the beginning of MAXSEC 3.  It is supposed to be "two 
days" after TB 45, but may actually be three days after.

Thunderbolts #47 (including internal flashback)

This issue, which includes an internal flashback, occurs on the same day as 
TB 46.  It is "weeks" after A3 34.

Thunderbolts #48 (beginning)

Same day as TB 47.  It is "days" after TB 45.  Full moon.

Thunderbolts #52  FB

It is either the same day as the beginning of TB 48 beg or day after.  This 
flashback occurs between the beginning of TB 48 and TB 49.

Thunderbolts #48 (end)

Day after the beginning of TB 48.

Thunderbolts #49

Same day as the end of TB 48; I dont place a gap between TB 48 and 49.  After 
TB 59 FB pg. 13-14.

Captain America v4 #1  FB  FB

The day before the main story in this issue  September 10.

Captain America v4 #1  FB

September 11.  This flashback occurs "seven months" before CA4 1, which occurs 
on Easter.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36

A "flashback" issue set on September 11.  Hawkeye was pulled here in the short 
break between TB 49 and 50, as explained by Jeph; after TB 50 he is 
incarcerated and wouldnt be able to be present.  Cyclops is here, so it must 
be after X:SC 4.

Thunderbolts #50 (including flashbacks and epilog #1)

Same day as TB 49.

Thunderbolts #50 (epilog #2)

Day after TB 50.  For reasons elaborated below, I would insert a gap of a few 
months between epilogs 2 and 3 in TB 50, during which time pardons are secured 
for the Thunderbolts and the Redeemer program is reevaluated in Citizen Vs 
absence.  You know, those bureaucratic wheels turn slowly.

Avengers v3 #37  FB
Avengers v3 #36
Avengers v3 #37

A3 36-37 occur during one day and the morning after, "six weeks" before A3 38. 
A3 36 shows bare trees and no snow; A3 37 shows light snow falling.  The bare 
trees may be topical, but the snow may be the starting effects of the casket 
of ancient winters in T2 41.  Thor is not present.

Marvel Knights #7

One day, shortly after MK 6.  There are snow  flurries in New York.  The 
flurries may be the same as those in A3 37 and may signal the beginning of 
the snowstorm in T2 31.

Marvel Knights #8
Marvel Knights #9

MK 8-9 occur the same night as MK 7.

Thor v2 #31
Thor v2 #32 (all but last page)

Given the snow flurries of MK 7, I place T2 31-32 later on the night of MK 
7-9.  Given that the end of T2 32 leads up to the death of Odin, Thor must 
make his many appearances in other titles during a gap between the last two 
pages of issue #32.  In T2 31, Jake Olson remarks that it is too early for 
snow in New York, and indeed, the snow is the result of the casket of ancient 
winters.  In T2 31, Hogun is recovered from the grave injuries he sustained 
in T2 29, which I estimate occurred a month earlier.

Black Panther v3 #28
Black Panther v3 #29
Black Panther v3 #30  FB #2

BP3 28-29 and the second flashback in BP3 30 occur during one day.  In BP3 
28, BP3 27 is referred to as having occurred "the other day" and it is "years" 
after Def 84.  Everett K. Ross mentions "our new rookie president," but we 
dont know to whom this refers.

Wolverine v2 #156
Wolverine v2 #157

W2 156-157 occur during one day.  Placement here between the beginning of 
MAXSEC 3 and SM:MM 1 is based on Russ work.

Fantastic Four v3 #37

One day, after the beginning of MAXSEC 3.  Warm weather in New York.

Iron Man v3 #37  FB

One night.  Green trees in upstate New York.

Iron Man v3 #38  FB

IM3 38-FB occurs the same night as IM3 37-FB and the span of "a few days" 
afterward.  Green grass and trees.  It is "a few weeks" after IM3 28.

Iron Man v3 #39  FB
Iron Man v3 #40  FB
Iron Man v3 #37
Iron Man v3 #38
Iron Man v3 #39
Iron Man v3 #40 (beginning)

Everything from IM3 39-FB through IM 40 beginning occurs the same day as the 
end of IM3 38-FB.  We see bare trees in New York City in IM3 39-FB, and the 
snow shown may be the residual effect of the casket of ancient winters from 
T2 41-42, especially considering the green of upstate in IM38-FB.  It is "a 
few weeks" before IM3 40 end.

Marvel Knights #10

One day, shortly after MK 9.

Maximum Security #3 (end)

One day, "a week" after the beginning of MAXSEC 3.  It is shortly before A3 
36 and before the flashbacks in USA2 1.

Spider-Man: The Mysterio Manifesto #1
Spider-Man: The Mysterio Manifesto #2
Spider-Man: The Mysterio Manifesto #3

SM:MM 1-3 occur during one day, "a few months" after ASM2 13.

Spider-Man: Revenge of the Green Goblin #2
Spider-Man: Revenge of the Green Goblin #3

These two issues span three days and occur before ASM2 25.  It is "a few 
years" after ASM 248.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #35 (pages 1-18)

These pages chronicle a span of a few days, all of which are elementary school 
days.  The real Spidey doesnt appear in this issue, meaning that its placement 
can be adjusted easily.  It doesnt need to occur between PPSM2 34 and 36.  
There are green grass and trees and warm, golfing weather in New York, so Id 
say its before autumn leaves appear.  It is "two months" before pages 19-22 
of this issue.

Captain Marvel v5 #14

One day.

Black Panther v3 #30
Black Panther v3 #31
Black Panther v3 #32
Black Panther v3 #33

BP3 30-31 occur during one day, but I dont have BP3 32-33.  Can anyone help 
place these issues?

OCTOBER

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #25

One night and into early the next morning.  This issue occurs after SM:RGG 3.  
It ends "two days" before PPSM2 25 and "weeks" before ASM3 27.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #25

One rainy night, "two days" after the end of ASM2 25, during which time Spidey 
has been Normans prisoner.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #26

The same night as PPSM2 25, the next day, and the day after that.  It must be 
more than just "a couple of weeks" after PPSM2 16.  The World Trade Center is 
shown here, but chronological analysis suggests that this is an error.  Bare 
trees.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #26  FB #1

One night with a full moon.  Someone in the main story in PPSM2 26 refers to 
this flashback as having occurred "the other day."

Spider-Man: Marrow #1  FB

One night and the next day.  The full moon may be the same as that shown in 
PPSM2 26FB #1, which is Spideys last appearance according to Russ.  ESU is 
in session and Marrow appears here as a freshman sometime after UX 380.

Spider-Man: Marrow #1 (beginning)

Same night as SM/M 1FB.  A "week" before the end of this issue.

Gambit v2 #25

One night and "a few days" later.  Full moon.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #26

One day.  Spidey doesnt appear here, but the first flashback, in which he 
does appear, is referenced as having occurred "the other day" and the fourth 
flashback, in which he appears as well, is referenced as having occurred "the 
other week."

Spider-Man: Marrow #1 (end)

One day, a "week" after the beginning of this issue.

Iron Man v3 #40 (end)

One day, "a few weeks" after the beginning of IM3 40.

NOVEMBER

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #27

One night, "weeks" after ASM2 25.  Bare trees in New York.

Uncanny X-Men #388
Cable v2 #87
Bishop: The Last X-Man #16
X-Men v2 #108

These issues cover a span of three days  the "final days" of a presidential 
election season.  The death of Moira MacTaggert.  Mystique is here after XMF 
6 pg. 36.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #27
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #28

One night.  These issues occur before ASM2 28.

Generation X #74 (pages 1-4)
Generation X #72 (pages 1-4)
Generation X #71 (pages 1-6)
Generation X #73 (pages 1-7)
Generation X #71 (page 7)
Generation X #72 (pages 5-6)
Generation X #71 (pages 8-18)
Generation X #72 (pages 7-20)
Generation X #73 (pages 8-18)
Generation X #74 (pages 5-6)
Generation X #73 (pages 19-22)
Generation X #74 (pages 8-17)
Generation X #71 (pages 19-20)
Generation X #72 (pages 21-22)
Generation X #71 (pages 21-22)
Generation X #74 (pages 18-22)

These four issues occur during the course of a day shortly after Moiras death 
in X 108.  Kudos to Jeph for untangling the chronology here.  There are many 
indications that it is an autumn day.

Spider-Man: Lifeline #1
Spider-Man: Lifeline #2
Spider-Man: Lifeline #3

One night and the next day.  Full moon.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #28

One day.  It is after PPSM2 28 and SM:L 3 and "almost six months" after ASM2 13.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #29

The same night as ASM2 28.  Full moon, perhaps the same one as in SM:L 2.  If 
so, this requires a slight reshuffling of Russ order of Spidey appearances, 
which I dont believe would cause any problems.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #29

The same rainy night as ASM 29.  This issue occurs a "week" before ASM 01.

Uncanny X-Men #389  FB #1

The day of Moiras funeral.  It is "a raw and bitter day in Scotland" with 
snow on the ground.  ho says Cable and Jean arent at the funeral?  Just 
because theyre not on panel doesnt mean theyre not there.  To quote Jeph 
himself, "Lack of proof of one thing does not equal positive proof of the 
opposite thing." ;)

Cable v2 #88

I have this issue starting the same day as Moiras funeral, with snow in 
Scotland. That would support my theory about Cable actually attending the 
funeral, then lingering after.  And with Storms presence here, its easier 
to deal with than having Storm leave and return to Scotland later to be with 
Cable.  The issue ends "forty-eight hours" later. 

Amazing Spider-Man Annual 2001

One day and early the next morning, a "week" after PPSM2 29.  According to 
Russ, this issue occurs before TW 1.  Peter and M.J. separate.  Aunt May makes 
a remark about Anna Watson accidentally voting for the wrong person (unnamed) 
instead of Al Gore.  This, and the reference to chads, are obviously nods to 
the "real-world" presidential election of 2000, and suggest that this story 
occurs after the November election.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #35 (pages 19-22)

One day, "two months" after PPSM2 35 pg. 1-18.  It is warm enough for short 
sleeves.  It is some time before May, the month when LaFronces mothers lease 
runs out.

Captain Marvel v5 #15
Captain Marvel v5 #16

CM5 15-16 occur during one day.

Wolverine v2 #158

I dont have this issue, but Im going with Russ and Jeph on placement here.  
Temporal references anyone?  (By the way, Jeph, I believe Gambit v2 #24 
follows from issue #23 and should be placed right after it.)

Uncanny X-Men #389

One day shortly after UX 389FB #1.

X-Men Unlimited #33/6

One day.  Im going with Jephs placement for this Sabretooth story.

Wolverine v2 #159
Wolverine v2 #160
Wolverine v2 #161

I dont have these issues, so Im relying on Jeph again.  Temporal clues?

Captain Marvel v5 #17
Captain Marvel v5 #18
Captain Marvel v5 #19

CM5 17-19 occur during one day.  Thor makes the first of his many guest 
appearances between the last two pages of T2 32 here.  Old, one-armed Rick 
emerges from this storyline. There is snow in Norway.

Uncanny X-Men Annual 2000 (part 1)

One day and the next.  It is "Thanksgiving," so I place this before the 
Christmas story in X 109.

Uncanny X-Men Annual 2000 (part 2)

One night.  There are "thirty shopping days till Christmas," so it must be 
November 24 (and so, again, before X 109).  We see "the first snow of the 
season," which may be the same snow we see start to fall in A3 37.  This would 
also mean that the unnaturally early snow released by the casket of ancient 
winters in T2 31 occurs before this point.

Captain Marvel v5 #20
Captain Marvel v5 #21

CM5 20-21 occur during a span of two days.  Rick is transported back to 
Avengers Forever during issue #20.

DECEMBER

Captain America v3 #37
Captain America v3 #38

CA3 37-38 occur during one day, "a few days" before CA3 39 and "weeks" before 
CA3 41.  Snow is seen in both issues.

Tangled Web: The Thousand #1
Tangled Web: The Thousand #2
Tangled Web: The Thousand #3

One day with a rainy night.  I dont have issue #3; it may extend beyond this 
day.  Any temporal references for that issue?  According to Russ, these issues 
occur between ASM 01 and ASM2 30.

Captain America v3 #39  FB
Captain America v3 #39

Both the flashback and main body of this issue occur one day, "a few days" 
after CA3 38.  Bare trees, and snow.  The full moon may be the same as that 
in UX 00 pt. 3.

Uncanny X-Men Annual 2000 (part 3)

One night.  There are "twenty shopping days till Christmas," so it must be 
December 4.  Snow and full moon.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #30
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #31

ASM2 30-31 occur over the course of two days.  During the second day (ASM2 31), 
Peter Parker gets a job substitute teaching at his old high school.  Its a 
school day there.  This story obviously occurs after Peter and M.J. split up 
(ASM 01) and before PPSM2 30.  According to Russ, these issues occur after 
TW 3.  Full moon.

X-Men v2 #111  FB

One day "several weeks" before X 111.  Quicksilver is cast out of Genosha by 
Magneto.  This expulsion may have nothing to do with Magnetos plans after the 
Legacy Virus is cured.  Pietros role as "freedom fighter" probably finally 
just ticked Magnus off.  There is certainly enough time after Dark Seduction 
for Pietro to have grown a beard.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #30
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #31
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #32

PPSM2 30-32 occur during the course of a day, after ASM2 31.  (I propose that 
PPSM2 33 is a "flashback" issue that should be placed during the preceding 
May, as it marks the anniversary of Ben Parkers death.  The May date is given 
by the Official Marvel Index to the Amazing Spider-Man #1.  Its corroborated 
by the fact that its baseball season.  No references require issue #33 to 
occur after #32.)

Uncanny X-Men Annual 2000 (part 4)

One day; "days" before UX000 pt. 5. There are "ten shopping days till 
Christmas," so it must be December 14.  Snow.

Hulk v3 #24
Hulk v3 #25

I dont collect H2, but its been reported that these two issues occur over 
the course of one or two days and that snow is present.  Im just placing them 
here to point out that the snow could be natural and not the result of the 
casket of ancient winters in T31.

Uncanny X-Men Annual 2000 (part 5)

One day, "days" after UX 2000 pt. 4.  This segment occurs before Cable cuts 
his ties to the X-Men in C2 92 and probably before the Dark Sisterhood 
storyline begins in C2 89.

Cable v2 #89

One day, probably after UX 00 pt. 5.

Cable v2 #90
Cable v2 #91  FB
Cable v2 #92  FB #1
Cable v2 #92  FB #2
Cable v2 #92  FB #4

Cable cuts his ties to the X-Men in C2 92FB #2.  C2 90, the flashbacks in 
C2 91, and all flashbacks in C2 92 except the third one occur one day, "seven 
days" before C2 91 and "two weeks" before C2 92.

Cable v2 #92  FB #5
Cable v2 #93  FB

One day, also "two weeks" before C2 92 and "weeks" before C2 93.  College is 
in session.

Cable v2 #94  FB

The same night as C2 93-FB and the day after.  It is "weeks" before C2 94.  
Rachel leaves college, perhaps just before the holiday break.  The green grass 
and trees at Rachels college may be normal for the location, which I assume 
is southern California, "thousands of miles" from Chicago.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #34

One day.  Peter has to grade papers that are "due Friday," so school is in 
session.  Russ places this issue after TW 5, but I dont have that comic.  
Theres a funfair in New York, with green grass and trees.  This issue cannot 
occur out of continuity, so we need an explanation for the existence of this 
warm weather event at this point in the calendar.  Should this have been 
rendered as a holiday fair?  Can anyone come up with a solution (within the 
context of calendar placement) that would allow us to accept the event as 
depicted, complete with operating carnival and light clothing?

Captain Marvel v5 #22
Captain Marvel v5 #23
Captain Marvel v5 #24
Captain Marvel v5 #25

CM 22-25 occur during one day.  "Its almost Christmas" in CM5 25.

X-Men Unlimited #31/2

One day just before Christmas.  There is snow.  I have Cyclops back from 
presumed death by this point (just not officially returned to the X-Men), so 
it is possible to have him shopping for presents here.  And the cane for Kurt 
doesnt necessarily mean that Kurt was injured  remember, Kurts a showman!

Captain Marvel v5 #26  FB
Captain Marvel v5 #26

Both flashback and main body occur during one day during the Christmas season.  
The temperature drops from 61 degrees to less than 49 degrees and there is 
snow.  Rick gets his arm and youth back on what may be Christmas Eve.

X-Men v2 #109

It is Christmas Eve of a "holiday weekend".  The X-Treme team forms here, but 
Colossus death postpones their departure until G&B 1FB.  Cable is not here, 
as hes cut his ties with the X-Men.  There is  snow in New York and Japan.  
The full moon here is inconsistent with that in UX 00 pt. 3, as only twenty 
days separate the two scenes.

Captain America v3 #50/1

This first story occurs on Christmas Eve and into Christmas Day.  There is 
snow.

Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1

Sad to day, I dont have this comic.  I recall leafing through it in the store 
and noting that Justice and Firestar were visiting Avengers mansion sometime 
after their departure in A3 25.  I also noted it as going before IM3  for 
some reason.  Those of you who do have this issue: does it make sense to place 
it here  the same Christmas as CA3 50/1 and between A37 and 38?  And whats 
up with IM3 ?

Cable v2 #91

One night, "seven days" after the flashbacks in C2 91.

Cable v2 #92  FB #3

The day after C2 91, "one week" before C2 92.

JANUARY

Cable v2 #92

One day.  It is "one week" after C2 92FB #3 and "two weeks" after the other 
flashbacks in C2 92.

Cable v2 #93

One day and the next day, "weeks" after C2 93FB and at least a "week" before 
C2 94.

X-Force #114

One day, "six months" after XFO 113, which occurred before the elections 
mentioned earlier (Kelly is noted as running for president in XFO 110).  Full 
moon.

X-Force #115  FB

The flashbacks in this issue occur on one day, "two days" after XFO 114 and 
"six months" after XFO 113.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #36

One day and the next day.  Spidey is not in this issue, and there arent many 
clues about placement.

X-Force #115

One day, shortly after the flashbacks in this issue.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #37

It's snowing absurdly hard and theres wind chill of -50 degrees.  Schools are 
closed because of the storm, so this story does not occur during the 
holiday/new year break.

Cable v2 #94

One day.  It is "weeks" after C2 94FB and at least a "week" after C2 93.

Cable v2 #95

The day after C2 94.  The end of the Dark Sisterhood storyline, occurring 
before G&B 3.

Uncanny X-Men #390

This issue, featuring the day of Colossus death, must occur his appearance 
in X2 109.  It is probably more than "a few weeks" after X2 107 and must 
certainly be "a few days" after X2 108.  The green grass and apparent warm 
weather in New York of this issue is inconsistent with that holiday setting of 
X2 109.

X-Men Unlimited #36/2 (pages 1-11)

Magneto appears here before X 111.

Wolverine v2 #176  FB

Colossus funeral.  Cyclops appears here although he hasnt officially returned 
to the X-Men yet.

X-Men Unlimited #30/2

One day shortly after UX 390 and before Storm leaves in XX 2-FB.  Bare trees 
and crescent moon.

X-Treme X-Men #3  FB #2

One day.  Rogue, Psylocke and Thunderbird are wearing their red X-Treme 
costumes, so this training session must occur between UX 390 and XX 2-FB.

X-Treme X-Men #2  FB

Gambit and Bishop #1  FB

One day shortly after X 109 and "a week" before G&B 1.  The X-Treme team leave 
the mansion.  I left a huge time gap between now and XX 1.

Uncanny X-Men #391

One "weekend" day, sometime before XU 32/3.  Fishing and camping weather.

X-Men v2 #110 (beginning)

One day.  Kitty Pryde enrolls as a freshman in college, perhaps after a long 
holiday vacation for the University of Chicago.  The green grass and trees in 
Chicago must be topical.

Unlimited X-Men #30/4

One day, between UX 390 and X 111.  Long enough after X 111-FB #2 for Pietro 
to heal. The green grass and trees must be topical.

Defenders v2 #1 (pages 1-3)

One day "three weeks" before Def2 1.

Defenders v2 #2  FB

One day "a few weeks" before Def2 2.

X-Men v2 #110 (end)

One day, a few days after the beginning of X 110.

Gambit and Bishop: Alpha #1
Gambit and Bishop #1
Gambit and Bishop #2
Gambit and Bishop #3
Gambit and Bishop #4
Gambit and Bishop #5
Gambit and Bishop #6

This series takes place over the course of two days "a week" after G&B 1FB.  
A full moon is seen throughout the series.  This may be the next full moon 
after UX 00 pt. 3.  Cable appears here after C2 95.  I suggest that the Beast 
sticks around the mansion for a short while before joining the X-Treme team, 
long enough to appear on the TV in X 111, then in W2 162-166.

Wolverine v2 #162
Wolverine v2 #163
Wolverine v2 #164
Wolverine v2 #165
Wolverine v2 #166

I dont have these issues, so Im going from Jephs notes that the Beast 
appears here and is badly wounded.  The reference presumably made here to the 
"Eve of Destruction" storyline is actually to the "Magneto Rex" series, as 
Jeph suggested. Anyone have temporal references for these issues?

Weapon X  The Draft: Wild Child  FB

I just plopped this here based on Jephs work.  I dont have this issue.

Weapon X  The Draft: Agent Zero

Again, I dont have this, but it must occur before DP2 59.

FEBRUARY

Wolverine v2 #167  FB
Wolverine v2 #167
Wolverine v2 #168
Wolverine v2 #169

Here we have a span of a few days (although I dont have issue #169 so I dont 
know if that should be extended) shortly after W2 166.  The Beast is 
convalescing in W2 167-FB.

X-Treme X-Men #3  FB #

This flashback shows the Beast being interviewed on TV.  It must occur after 
the convalescing mentioned in W2 167-FB and before he rejoins the X-Treme 
team in XX3 FB #3.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #32
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #33
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #34
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #35
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #37
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #38

The "Spidey vs. Morlun" storyline only occurs over the course of a day or two.  
It ends with Peter getting severely beaten.  High school is in session and ASM2 
35 shows a full moon.

X-Treme X-Men #3  FB #3

The Beast is here, so he has reconnoitered with the team following the 
convalescence mentioned in W2 167-FB.  This means he is not available to help 
the X-Men during "Eve of Destruction."  The X-Treme team leaves for Spain and 
is next seen in XX 1-FB.

X-Men v2 #111
Uncanny X-Men #392
X-Men v2 #112
Uncanny X-Men #393
X-Men v2 #113

These five issues chronicle the "Eve of Destruction" storyline that takes place 
over the course of two days, "several weeks" after X 111-FB.  (Jephs other 
"flashback" in X 111, with the televised Beast, I place the same day as X 
111.)  Since Quicksilver is reported to be planning to return to the Avengers, 
this storyline occurs between XU 30/4 and A3 38.  A comment made in W2 162 
suggests that this storyline occurs before W2 162.

Avengers v3 #38
Avengers v3 #39
Avengers v3 #40

Occurring during one day "six weeks" after A3 37, A3 38 occurs in "winter," 
but it features "unseasonably warm and sunny"weather in New York.  Thor returns 
to the Avengers after an absence (and appears next with them in FF3 39.)

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #38

One day.  It looks like warm weather here, perhaps one of those winter mild 
spells that frequently hit the northeast.  It may be the same warm spell as 
seen in A3 38-40.

Iron Man v3 #41

One day.  The introduction of Iron Mans "retro armor" puts this issue after 
A3 40.  It is "a few short weeks" before IM3 42.  Coney Island is shown as 
being open, so maybe its that same warm spell.  Of course, how would they 
open and staff the place on short notice?  Surely this warm weather was not 
certain well in advance.

Fantastic Four v3 #38
Fantastic Four v3 #39
Fantastic Four v3 #40
Fantastic Four v3 #41
Fantastic Four v3 #42
Fantastic Four v3 #43
Fantastic Four v3 #44

Id say that FF3 38-44 occur over the course of two days.  Thors appearance 
with the Avengers in FF3 39 suggests that these issues occur after A3 38-40.  
The Torch cannot control his flame as of FF3 44, and the situation isnt fixed 
until FF3 49, so Torch cannot appear without flames between FF3 44 and 49.

Thunderbolts #50 (epilog 3)

One day.  Cap assumes responsibility for leading the Redeemers program, which 
he does part-time until TB 54.  This commitment does not prevent him from 
having adventures outside the program.  See below for the reason I put a 
continuity break between epilogs 2 and 3 of TB 50.  During that time, the 
V-Battalion is undertaking an investigation, pardons are being processed for 
the Thunderbolts, SHIELD is determining the future of the Redeemer program, 
and Hawkeye sits in stir while the legal wheels turn for his imprisonment.

Avengers: Celestial Quest #1
Avengers: Celestial Quest #2
Avengers: Celestial Quest #3 
Avengers: Celestial Quest #4
Avengers: Celestial Quest #5 
Avengers: Celestial Quest #6
Avengers: Celestial Quest #7 
Avengers: Celestial Quest #8 

According to Tom Brevoort, this series occurs between A3 40 and 41.  These 
eight issues occur over the course of a couple of days.  It is supposed to 
be "five years" after A 128, but it must be quite a bit longer.

Fantastic Four Annual 2001/1

One day.  Namorita appears.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #39
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #40
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #41

PPSM2 39-41 occur over the course of two days, as much time as possible before 

Thunderbolts #50 (epilog 4)

"Two days" after TB 50 epilog 3.

Defenders v2 #1 (pages 4 on)

Iron Mans retro armor places this after IM3 41.  The "big four" Defenders 
get cursed by Yandroth.  It is one day, "three weeks" after Def2 1 pg. 1-3.  
According to Russ, the Hulk is here between H3 23 and 24, but can we place 
this after A3 39 (and thus after H2 28, ala Russ)?  And does the Hulk-Thor 
battle in H 01 occur around this time or is it a flashback story?

Defenders v2 #2

This issue likely occurs shortly after Def2 1, as this is the first time the 
curse is activated.  Attuma usurps the throne of Atlantis.  Given other 
evidence, we must conclude that Namorita is not captured by Attuma in this 
issue, but rather escapes.  It is "a few weeks" after the flashback in this 
issue and at least "a few months" after the end of Nighthawk #3.  It is 
"months" before Def2 11.

Defenders v2 #3

The same night as Def2 2, and "six months" after the flashback in this issue.

Defenders v2 #4

he same night as Def2 3.  Namor must appear here before USA2 2, since Attuma 
rules Atlantis during the USA2 series.

Infinity Abyss #1
Infinity Abyss #2
Infinity Abyss #3
Infinity Abyss #4
Infinity Abyss #5
Infinity Abyss #6

IA 1-6 occur over the course of "eighteen hours."  According to Tom Brevoort, 
this series occurs between A3 40 and 41 and after Celestial Quest.  The 
appearance of the cursed Defenders places the series after Def2 4.  Green 
grass and trees are seen in upstate New York in this series, but this must be 
topical.

Avengers v3 #41

This issue must occur between the time Stark gave up his company in IM3 41 and 
before he adopts the Hogan Potts identity in IM3 42.  Jans dialog suggests 
that it is very shortly after IM3 41.  Kang also blows up the UN building. 

Avengers v3 #42

A3 41-42 occur on a "weekend" day, perhaps Saturday.

Fantastic Four v3 #46

Here, we have a reference to the UN having just blown up, and the dumped 
Galactus head from FF 01 is being removed.  Namorita makes an appearance 
after her escape from Attuma off-panel in Def2 2.  The Silver Surfers 
appearance here is easier to place before the Yandroth curse of Def2 1  one 
argument for putting these FF issues before Def2 2.  Franklin returns home 
from Haven.

Fantastic Four v3 #47 
Fantastic Four v3 #48 
Fantastic Four v3 #49

FF3 46-49 probably occur during the course of a day, the same day as A3 41-42, 
and perhaps the day after FF 01.  The Invisible Woman becomes pregnant and is 
nearly full-term. Galactus returns to the Marvel continuum. Namorita makes 
another appearance.  As of FF3 49, the Torch can control his flame with the 
help of a special costume.

Avengers v3 #43

A3 43 continues directly from A3 42 and so occurs the same day as FF3 47-49.  
Attuma rules Atlantis, so it is after Def2 2.  After Attumas troops are 
defeated here, the Avengers resolve to contact Namor to find out whats going 
on, so it probably isnt long after Def2 2.

Avengers v3 #44 (beginning)

This segment continues directly from A3 43.

Avengers Annual 2001/1

Same night as A3 44 beginning and early into the next morning.  Hank Pym is 
cured of his multiple personalities.  Full moon.

Avengers v3 #44 (end)

Specifically occurs right after A 01 (the same morning). Pym appears in his 
Goliath uniform.

Fantastic Four Annual 2001/2

One day, shortly after Franklins return in FF3 46-49.

Black Panther v3 #34
Black Panther v3 #35

The Surfers appearance with the Defenders here, combined with Iron Fists 
chronology (before TB 57), place these issues between Def2 4 and 5 (Russ 
agrees).

Black Panther v3 #36
Black Panther v3 #37

I dont have these two issues, so Ill need help placing them.

Fantastic Four v3 #50/1

Namorita appears, as does She-Hulk.  One day  the anniversary of the Fantastic 
Four, which would place this story in the same month as FF 1 and FF 296.  We 
see green trees and warm weather in New York, but these must be topical.

Deadpool v2 #56

One day.

U.S.Agent v2 #1  FB #1-5
U.S.Agent v2 #1
U.S.Agent v2 #2
U.S.Agent v2 #3 (all but last page)

This series occurs over the course of a few days.  Attuma is ruler of Atlantis 
here and makes the first of his attacks on the surface world.  That fact, plus 
Namors presence in issue #2 places the series after Def2 4.  Senator 
Warkowski of the Senate Appropriations Committee is stated as being up for 
re-election in a flashback in issue #1 and he is defeated between the last 
two pages of issue #3.  The whole plot centers around Warkowskis political 
ambitions and cannot be taken lightly.

X-Treme X-Men #1  FB

A span of time as the X-Treme team race across the Atlantic in a yacht.  This 
travel takes up a chunk of the time Ive placed between G&B 1FB and XX 1 and 
occurs after XX 3-FB #3.

MARCH

X-Force #117  FB #6 (end)

A short span of time, some time before XFO 116FB.  Professor X appears in a 
Morrison-era yellow-and-black leather X-Men outfit, so this flashback occurs 
sometime after X 113.  I figure that this is the chronologically earliest 
appearance of one of these outfits.

Iron Man v3 #42

One day, "a few short weeks" after IM3 41.  Tony Stark is puttering around 
with armor modifications.

Iron Man v3 #43

Same day as IM3 42.  Stark meets Goliath in an essentially empty (except for 
Jarvis) Avengers Mansion.

Cable v2 #97
Cable v2 #98
Cable v2 #99

These three issues occur over the course of two days.  Full moon.

Cable v2 #100/1

This story occurs over the course of several days following C2 99.

Cable v2 #100/2

One day, perhaps right after C2 100/1.

Tigra #1

One night and the next night.  Full moon.  Bare trees.

Iron Man v3 #44

The day after IM3 43 and the day after that.  Here we have the introduction 
of Stark's transitional armor. It actually is being slightly modified 
throughout IMs various appearances until Grell and Ryan introduce a new 
version in IM3 50.

Citizen V and the V-Battalion #1
Thunderbolts #51
Citizen V and the V-Battalion #2
Thunderbolts #52
Citizen V and the V-Battalion #3 (beginning)
Thunderbolts: Life Sentences
Citizen V and the V-Battalion #3 (end)

These issues occur over the course of a few days, all told.  References in 
both CVATVB and TB place these issues "one week" after the epilogs of TB 50, 
but I propose that the week only applies to epilogs 3 and 4 of TB 50.  Epilog 
1 occurs the same day as TB 50; epilog 2 occurs the "next day"; then a few 
months must intervene before epilog 3 (not given a time reference) occurs; 
then epilog 4 occurs "two days" after that.  The gap is necessitated by the 
fact that Attuma has taken over Atlantis (explicitly referenced in CVATVB 2), 
so these issues must occur after Def2 2, which occurs after Def2 1, which must 
occur after the retro-armor appears in IM3 41, which in turn occurs after A3 
38-40.  Theres a full moon in TB:LS, which occurs "a couple of weeks" before 
TB 54.

Iceman v2 #1
Iceman v2 #2
Iceman v2 #3
Iceman v2 #4

As Jeph remarks, this series must occur before X 01 and X 118, and may 
explain Bobbys absence in UX 394.  I dont have this series, so temporal 
references would be appreciated.

Uncanny X-Men #394

One night, before X 114.  Full moon.

Iron Man v3 #45

The same day as the end of IM3 44 and the day after that.  It is "weeks" 
before IM3 46.

Captain America v3 #41
Captain America v3 #42
Captain America v3 #43
Captain America v3 #44

CA2 41-44 occur over the course of two days.  CA3 41 occurs "weeks" after CA3 
37.  In CA3 44, Taskmaster refers to the Avengers raiding his operations, 
which we see in A3 38, so I place CA3 41-44 after CA3 38.  Full moon.

Fantastic Four v3 #51 
Fantastic Four v3 #52 
Fantastic Four v3 #53 
Fantastic Four v3 #54

The Invisible Woman gives birth in FF3 54.  FF3 51-54 occur over the course 
of two days, while the Stern Academy is in session.  There are topical green 
trees in New York and a full moon in FF3 53 and 54.  This may be the same full 
moon as in TB:LS and CA3 41-44.  The Torch is cured of uncontrollable flame in 
FF3 54 and no longer needs the special costume. Franklin is "only seven," 
which just cant be right. (I still contend that Franklins reality-warping 
powers are causing him to remain eternally young and are preventing anyone 
from even noticing!).

X-Force #116  FB #1

One day, after XFO 117FB #6 and shortly before XFO 116.  Im allowing time 
between XFO 115 and 116FB #1 for the X-Force name to be co-opted and the 
team assembled.

X-Force #120  FB

One day, shortly before XFO 116.

Iron Man Annual 2001/2

Im guessing the second story in this annual occurs the day after IM3 45 given 
the opening reference to events of the "last few days."

U.S.Agent v2 #3 (last page) 

One day, shortly after the rest of USA2 3, and right after the election in 
which Senator Warkowsky is defeated.   I identify the election in question as 
a party primary that occurs the first Tuesday of March.

Iron Man Annual 2001/1

This story occurs over the course of two days.  "Weeks" before IM3 46.

Black Panther v3 #38
Black Panther v3 #39
Black Panther v3 #40

Iron Fist regains his powers, justifying Gravitons taking him out later in 
TB 57.

X-Force #116
X-Force #117  FB #1
X-Force #117
X-Force #118
X-Force #119
X-Force #120

These issues occur over the course of a week (but Im not splitting them all 
up in the calendar and sprinkling them among other stories), shortly after XFO 
116FB #1 and XFO 120-FB and before TB 57.

Iron Man v3 #48  FB (page 6, panel 4)

One day.  Ultron Mark 12, planning to steal Starks SKIN technology, has the 
mind-controlled Sun Tao outfitted in a replica of the sentient armor and sends 
him to attack Askew Electronics as a diversion.

Iron Man v3 #46 (pages 1-15)

Same day.  Hank Pym, as Goliath, tells Tony that his artificial heart is 
evolving.  Tony learns about the Church of Yinsen, established "a few weeks" 
earlier.  Iron Man is alerted to the  attack at Askew and battles a mind-
controlled Sun Tao, defeats him, and learns that the SKIN technology has been 
stolen from Askew.  He suspects that the armor Sun Tao wears is not the 
original sentient armor.  Right after this, Tony doffs the transitional armor, 
puts on the classic armor and takes the transitional armor to Avengers Mansion 
to do some testing behind the scenes.  Meanwhile, Hank shops with Jan behind 
the scenes.

Captain America v3 #45  FB #1

Same day, 6 days before CA3 45-48.  Hate Monger, posing as Adam Hauser, 
approaches a group of workers on strike.</P> <B><P>Avengers: The Ultron 
Imperative

That night.  Behind the scenes, Hank resumes his Yellowjacket identity after 
returning from shopping.  Tony, in classic armor, is still testing ("tinkering 
with") the transitional armor, which is in pieces, when hes called upon to 
join the rest of the Avengers to deal with Alkhema.  The Avengers discover 
they have "twenty hours" to solve a mystery.  Iron Man gets Hawkeye out of 
Seagate Prison (so its before TB 54) to deal with Alkhema and very early the 
next morning, the Avengers head to Greece and Egypt, arriving at "dawn" local 
time.  In Egypt, the Avengers battle Alkhema and the Ultron she inadvertently 
creates.  The confrontation ends with an explosion, the Avengers depart, and 
Antigone fetches the Ultron head from the rubble.

Iron Man v3 #48  FB (page 4, panel 6)

Immediately after this, Ultron Mark 12 dispatches the Sons of Yinsen to fetch 
the Ultron head from Antigone.  Ultron downloads the head behind the scenes.

Captain America v3 #45  FB #2

Ill say its the afternoon of the day the Avengers return from the battle 
with Alkhema.  Nick Fury has resumed his job as Director of SHIELD.  He visits 
Cap, who is back at Avengers Mansion training.  Cap and Sharon Carter get put 
on the case to take the Helicarrier back from the Red Skull, whos had it for 
"a few months."

Captain America v3 #45  FB #3

Five hours later, it is night.  Hate Monger, as Adam Hauser, influences the 
strikers to kill Mexican travelers in Louisiana.

Captain America v3 #45  FB #4

Two hours after that, Iron Man, still in classic armor, is at Avengers Mansion 
and locates the Helicarrier for Cap and Sharon.

Captain America v3 #45  FB #5

Five hours after that, under the light of a full moon, the Hate Monger 
rendezvouses with Red Skull in Louisiana.  Behind the scenes, Tony has 
finished his work on the transitional armor and re-dons it to assist Cap in 
the Helicarrier case.

Captain America v3 #46  FB #1

Eleven hours after that (now two days after IM3 46 pg. 15), Iron Man, in 
transitional armor, is back at Avengers Mansion assisting Cap as Cap finds 
the Helicarrier in the depths of the Gulf of Mexico.

Captain America v3 #46  FB #2

One hour later, Nick Fury encounters Hauser.

Captain America v3 #46  FB #3

Two hours after that, Cap boards the Helicarrier while Iron Man monitors from 
Avengers Mansion.  Apparently, Cap wonders the decks for eighteen (!!) hours 
before the Helicarrier surfaces, and Cap encounters the Skull, who ejects Cap 
from the Helicarrier.

Captain America v3 #47  FB #1-3

Cap is rescued from his plummet by Sharon, but the Skull blasts their hovercar 
while Iron Man monitors from Avengers Mansion.  Hauser spreads hate in 
Louisiana.  Cap and Sharon are rescued by Namor, who was alerted by Iron Man.  
Cap convinces Namor to join them.

Captain America v3 #47  FB #4

Five hours later, Hauser and the Skull prepare to launch their insidious plan, 
while Nick Fury is helpless to stop them.</P> <B><P>Captain America v3 
#47  FB #5

23 minutes later, Cap, Sharon and Namor have infiltrated the Helicarrier and 
attack the Skull.  The identity of the Hate Monger is revealed.

Captain America v3 #48  FB #1

About an hour later, Cap, Sharon and Namor are prisoners of the Skull and Hate 
Monger.  They escape, battle the bad guys, save the day, and reclaim the 
Helicarrier, "almost three days" before CA3 45-48.  Cap disappears with a 
transport to go on "a special mission."

Iron Man v3 #46 (pages 16-22)

Right after this, Iron Man, satisfied that his obligation to Cap has been met 
now that the day is saved, goes to check on Sun-Tao at Stark Enterprises.  
According to my calculations, it has been three days since IM3 46 pg. 1-15.  
Tony confirms that Sun Tao is mind-controlled and that the armor is a 
reproduction of the sentient armor.  After studying and adapting the SKIN 
technology for three days, Ultron, as "Yinsen," goes with the Sons of Yinsen 
come to retrieve Sun Tao and confront Iron Man.

Iron Man v3 #47

Iron Man battles the Sons while Sun Tao snaps out of it.  The Sons seize Sun 
Tao, then Jocasta comes back and helps Iron Man take the battle to the Sons. 
Ultron reveals himself.

Iron Man v3 #48

Ultron tells Iron Man his story.  Ultron leaves to launch his grand scheme, 
leaving the Sons to dispatch Sun Tao and Iron Man.  Our heroes defeat the 
Sons and return to Stark Enterprises.  Tony tries to reach the Avengers for 
help, but theyre "off dealing with Kang" (during the gap between A3 44 and 
45).  That night, Sun Tao and Iron Man head to a stormy Las Vegas, where they 
defeat Ultron.  Unbeknownst to our heroes, Antigone ends up in a hospital with 
Ultrons head.

Deadpool v2 #57
Deadpool v2 #58
Deadpool v2 #59
Deadpool v2 #60

I have only two issues of this "Agent of Weapon X" storyline, so temporal 
references are welcome.  Copycat appears in issue #59 after Weapon X  The 
Draft: Agent Zero, and Wade dies in issue #60.

Captain America v3 #45

Two days after IM3 48, as a result of Caps "special mission," Nick Fury and 
Dum Dum Dugan take a hovercar to an island in the North Sea to observe a 
funeral.

Captain America v3 #46

Nick and Dum Dum are joined by Sharon Carter and then the Avengers, including 
Iron Man, show up.  We see green grass and trees on that North Sea island.

Captain America v3 #47

Namor joins the group and remarks that he hasnt recovered Atlantis yet (so 
its between Def2 2 and 11).  They yack amid those green trees.

Captain America v3 #48

The group talks.  Iron Man says that the Helicarrier was stolen by the Skull 
"several months ago."  Cap arrives with Buckys sister and he unveils a 
commemorative statue of Bucky sculpted by Alicia Masters.

Thunderbolts #53

It is only "two days" before TB 54.

Deadpool v2 #61
Deadpool v2 #62
Deadpool v2 #63
Deadpool v2 #64

I only have two issues of the "Funeral for a Freak" storyline, so temporal 
references are again welcome.  Wades funeral places this within days after 
his death in DP2 60.  My placement here is based on Jephs work, with the 
Panther showing up between BP3 40 and TB 57.

Thunderbolts #54 

It is "two days" after TB 53.  It is "a couple of weeks"after Clint Barton 
was put in prison, but this may be a reference to a transfer to Seagate after 
a few months spent being held elsewhere.  Cap ends his association with the 
Redeemer program after several weeks on the job. 

Thunderbolts #55 
Thunderbolts #56
Thunderbolts #57

Iron Man is in his transitional armor (probably after working some kinks out 
in CA3 46-FB). We have appearances by a non-pregnant Invisible Woman (after 
FF3 54), Namorita (before her capture by Attuma prior to Def2 5), Iron Fist 
(after BP3 40) and Yellowjacket (after A:UI).  I assume the Surfer is behind 
the scenes here.  The X-Men are in their Morrison outfits. The X-Force line-up 
suggests placement after XFO 120.  Kang is in Damocles Base.

Thunderbolts #58
Thunderbolts #59

TB 54-59 all occur within the span of a day.

Thunderbolts #60

TB 60 occurs the same day as TB 59 and the following day.  Green trees in 
Pittsburgh are topical.

Thunderbolts #61 (beginning)

This segment occurs the same day as the end of TB 60.

Captain America v3 #49

One day.  The falling leaves in New York must be topical.  Jacket weather in 
Idaho.

Iron Man v3 #49

One day.

Thunderbolts #67  FB (page 5)

This flashback probably occurs days after the death of Meteorite III in TB 56. 
It is established as occurring "twelve weeks" before TB 67.

Captain America v3 #50/2

Perhaps a couple of days.  The green grass and trees at Arlington Cemetery 
must be topical.

Defenders v2 #5

One day.  Namorita is shown a captive of Attuma, having been captured sometime 
after TB 58.  The Surfer leaves for space, so I place this after BP3 35.  
Green trees are topical.

Defenders v2 #6

Same night as Def2 5; "several days"before Def2 8.  Bruce Banner appears, 
still afflicted with ALS.

Defenders v2 #7

Same night as Def2 6.

Thunderbolts #61 (end)

This segment occurs "four days" after the beginning of this issue and 
continues the day after that.

Thunderbolts #62

I believe this is the same day as the tail end of TB 61.

Incredible Hulk v3 #30

Bruce Banner is all-but-dead from ALS, so this must occur after Def2 6.

Incredible Hulk v3 #31
Incredible Hulk v3 #32

Banner is cured of ALS by Ant-Man and Mr. Fantastic. Thing and She-Hulk cameo. 
With Jennifer's world-trotting from China to France to NYC, we tried to keep 
this appearance relatively close to her other NYC appearance in FF3 50.

Deadline #2  FB

One day "about three months" before Deadline #2.

Captain America v3 #50/3

One day.  Cap and Sharon part ways in a story that must predate the "death" 
of Cap in CA3 50/4-5.  The green grass and trees in Maine may not be topical, 
as it may be very early spring.

Defenders v2 #8  FB
Defenders v2 #8
Defenders v2 #9 
Defenders v2 #10

A non-pregnant Invisible Woman makes an appearance, so this is placed after 
FF3 54.  The Surfer is back.  Def2 9-10 occur the same day as Def2 8, which 
occurs the day after Def2 8FB.  I surmise from Russ that this occurs before 
H3 29.

Captain America Annual 2001

One day.  In ASM 01, we have a reference to it being after a presidential 
election, and here we have a reference to a president (Dubya) who has been on 
the job only "a few months."  Assuming presidents in the Marvel Universe are 
inaugurated in January, that would place this story at least in late March.  
Caps identity is still a secret, so this story must occur before CA4 1.

Brotherhood #1
Brotherhood #2
Brotherhood #3

I dont have issue #1, but issues #2-3 occur over the course of four days 
during the school year.  Green grass and trees.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #42
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #43

These two issues show a span of a few days during spring break for college 
students, so its probably March.  Theres a full moon in PPSM2 43.

Thunderbolts #63
Thunderbolts #64 (pages 1-5)

TB 63 and the first five pages of TB 64 occur over the course of three days, 
probably starting several days after TB 62.  It is "one week" before TB 64 pg. 
5-9, "two weeks" before TB 64 pg. 10-20, "three weeks" before TB 65, and "six 
weeks" before TB 68. At the end of TB 63, Hawkeye is freed from being chained 
to the other prison escapees and gets his costume back, so he wouldnt have 
appeared on TV in CA3 50/6 before this point.  However, he mentions that he 
and Plantman are still "on the lam," and Im not clear about the point in time 
after this in which its safe for Clint to make a public appearance.

Cable v2 #101
Cable v2 #102
Cable v2 #103
Cable v2 #104

C2 101-104 seem to take place over the course of a few days, ending "two 
hundred days" after 9-11, or March 31.

Captain America v3 #50/4
Captain America v3 #50/5

CA3 50/4-5 occur during a day and end in Caps pointless "death."

APRIL

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #39

One day and the next day.  The second day is a day the New York Public Library 
is open.  Bare trees.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #40

Same night as the end of ASM2 39 and the next day.  Green grass and trees and 
short sleeves.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #41

Same night as the end of ASM2 40 and the next night.  It is "Tuesday and 
Wednesday."

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #42

Same night as the end of ASM2 41 and the next day.  The second day is noted 
as "July 17," but this must be topical.  Dr. Strange cameos. Supposedly, this 
will lead into an upcoming Dr. Strange story: "Doctor Strange: The Other Side 
of Darkness."

Thunderbolts #64 (pages 5-9)

This segment begins one day "one week" after TB 64 pg. 1-5 and ends two days 
later.  The end comes "twenty-seven hours" before TB 64 pg. 10-20.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #43 (beginning)

The day after the end of ASM2 42.  It is "five days" before the last part of 
ASM2 43.  It is the last day of school before a "holiday break."  Im inclined 
to think of the break as spring break for the school where Peter works.

Generation X #75

One day and the next morning.  The Massachusetts Academy closes, Chamber is 
invited to join the X-Men, and Emma accepts an appointment with Prof. X.

Defenders v2 #11

One day.  This story, "months" (well, technically) after Def2 2, features 
Namors reclamation of Atlantis and the freeing of Namorita.  Namor appears at 
Caps funeral in CA3 50/6 after this victory.

X-Treme X-Men #1

One day.

X-Treme X-Men #2

Same day as XX 1.

X-Treme X-Men #3

Same day as XX2 and the next day.  We see "a lovely summer day" in Valencia, 
Spain, but although the weather may be nice, it may be no later than early 
spring.  

X-Treme X-Men #4

Same day as the end of XX 3.  It is "weeks" before XX 01/1/  Full moon.  The 
Beast is injured in XX3 and Storm takes him back to Xaviers behind the scenes 
after XX 4.

Brotherhood #4

One night.  Full moon.

Cyclops #1

This issue starts one day and continues after Scott has driven his motorcycle 
from New York to Alaska.  Prof. X appears seated in the first part.  There are 
green grass and trees in Westchester, but a blizzard in Alaska.  Full moon.

Cyclops #2
Cyclops #3
Cyclops #4

These three issues continue for four days from the end of issue #1.  This 
series most likely occurs before X 114.

Thunderbolts #64 (pages 10-20)

This segment occurs "twenty-seven hours"  two days  after TB 64 pg. 6-9 and 
"two weeks" after TB 64 pg. 1-5, so it must be one week before TB 65, "three 
weeks" before TB 66, and four weeks before TB 68.  "Weeks" before TB 72.

X-Force #121

One day and the next day.

X-Force #122 (beginning)

Same day as the end of XFO 121.

Captain America v3 #50/6

News of Caps death spreads and we see a funeral that probably occurs a 
several days after CA3 50/5. We see a non-pregnant Invisible Woman (post FF3 
54) and Namor as sovereign of Atlantis (post Def2 11 but likely prior to Def2 
12 and the resulting Order storyline). Hawkeye is televised, wearing costume 
and brandishing quiver and arrows, so this must occur after the his freedom 
and costume are regained in TB 63.  Iron Man is not wearing the Grell-Ryan 
armor yet, so it is before A3 52.  Thor is in his classic costume.  We see that 
the Beast is not cat-like; we theorize that while Storm was dropping Hank off 
at the Mansion, they learned of Caps death and decided to attend the funeral, 
even though Hank is injured.  It is right after this that Hank mutates into 
his cat-like form.  Rick Jones is here before he grows the facial hair first 
seen in CM5 27.  I have Spidey here during the five-day break in ASM2 43.  Cap 
must emerge from presumed death right after this, and evidence of the injuries 
hes had since CA3 50/5 are seen in A3 45.

X-Factor v2 #1 

"Saturday, April 6,""Sunday, April 7," Monday, April 8, and Tuesday, April 9.  
(These dates dont match the "Wednesday, July 2" mentioned in UX 109 and would 
mean that 9-11 also was a Tuesday in the MU.) "Two weeks" before the beginning 
of XF2 2.  Jean Greys anonymous appearance in the crowd would indicate that 
this story occurs before the X-Men go public.  It fits right before Xaviers 
announcement in NX 116.  This placement suggests that the second chronological 
appearance of the X-Mens new leather outfits is here, after XFO 117-FB #6.  
Full moon.

X-Force #122 (end)

Two days after the beginning of XFO 122.  Placement before Brotherhood #8 is 
based on Lacuna.  There isnt enough data yet to place XFO 123-129 or XS 1-3.

Avengers v3 #45

The dialogue suggests this is the first time Wanda has seen Hank as 
Yellowjacket. Clearly, though, Hank appeared as Yellowjacket before now in 
A:UI.  The dialog can be interpreted as being the first time Wanda decides to 
broach the topic.  We also have Cap bandaged up throughout the issue. While 
the dialogue suggests this was from his being turned into a zombie in A3 
43-44, this cant be right, as Cap has made several appearances without 
bandages since A3 44.  The current theory is that Caps bandages are from the 
explosion that presumably resulted in his death in CA3 50/5.  The Master sends 
up his ring walls at the end of this issue, which "forces" the Kang War almost 
in its entirety after Graviton's attack from Thunderbolts.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #43 (end) 

Since Doc Ock is out of prison here, we need to put as much space as we 
reasonably can after his capture in PPSM2 41.

Amazing Spider-Man v2 #44
Amazing Spider-Man v2 #45

The second part of ASM2 43 and ASM2 44-45 occur "five days" after the first 
part of ASM2 43, so were looking at the Wednesday of spring break at Peters 
school.  And, fortunately, there are no references to school being in session 
here.

Avengers v3 #46
Avengers v3 #47
Avengers v3 #48 

This issue occurs "72 hours" after A3 45 and "weeks" before A3 51.

Avengers v3 #49

Washington DC is nuked by Kang. 

Avengers v3 #50

A3 46-50 occur within the "96 hours" the Avengers were given to stop Kang at 
the end of A3 45.  Much of the world surrenders to Kang here, and its hard to 
place other stories into the weeks he dominates the globe.  Hawkeyes 
adventures in TB, however, will have to fit in that period, as does the Beast 
story in XU 36/3.

Thunderbolts #65

This issue and the flashback within occur during the course of a day.  It is 
"three weeks" after TB 63, so it must be one week after TB 64 pg. 10-20 and 
two weeks before TB 66.

X-Men Unlimited #32/3

A Starjammers story that spans a "few days," sometime after UX 391.

X-Men Unlimited #36/3 (pages 1-2)

A "Saturday" night.  The cat-like Beast is featured.  He is probably still 
recovering from his injuries and mutation and is not in shape to help in the 
war against Kang.

X-Men Unlimited #36/3 (pages 2-7)

One night.  The Beast finds the mutated cat and begins to nurse it back to 
health (for lack of other helpful things to do during Kangs occupation).  It 
is a "Saturday," a week after XU 36/3 pg. 1-2.

X-Factor v2 #2 (pages 1-3)

One day and the next day, "two weeks" after the end of XF2 1.  Long enough 
into baseball season for Tony Robb to have his "32nd home run of the year."  
"18 months" after XF2 2FB.

Avengers v3 #51 (beginning) 

This segment occurs during two consecutive days,"a few days" before the middle 
portion of this issue.  It begins "weeks" after A3 48, so there must be a time 
gap between A3 50 and 51.

Thunderbolts #66

One day.  It is "three weeks" after TB 64 pg. 10-20, so it must be two weeks 
after TB 65 and one week before TB 68.

Avengers v3 #51 (middle) 

This segment occurs"a few days" after the first portion of this issue and two 
days before the last part.

MAY

X-Men Unlimited #36/1  FB

The flashback on page 3 to scenes from Kittys life in college can be 
snapshots from different points in time during the school year (spring 
semester), but I put it all here to make life easier.

Avengers v3 #51 (end) 

This segment occurs "two nights" after the middle portion of this issue.

Avengers v3 #52

Introduction of the Iron Mans Grell-Ryan armor.  Probably the day after the 
end of A3 51 and the day after that.  It is "weeks" after A3 50, during which 
time Caps team of Avengers have been trapped in space.  Theres a full moon 
in both A3 51 and 52.

Avengers v3 #53

The same day as the end of A3 52.

Avengers v3 #54

Still the same day.  This issue occurs "three weeks" before A3 55.  Kang is 
defeated at last and Thor disappears at the end of this issue.

X-Men Unlimited #34/3

One night and the next day.  A Sunfire story with a full moon.

Thunderbolts #68

One day.  It is "six weeks" after TB 64 pg. 1-5, so it must be one week after 
TB 66.

X-Men Unlimited #34/2

One night, between GX 75 and X 115.  Ill go with Jephs explanation of Emmas 
behavior.  It should be long enough before X 115 for Emma to spend some time 
in Genosha, and that means that Chamber is AWOL for some time.  Full moon.

Marvel Knights #11
Marvel Knights #12
Marvel Knights #13
Marvel Knights #14
Marvel Knights #15

MK 11-15 occur during one night with a full moon.  This story must take place 
after the Red Skull gives up control of the SHIELD heli-carrier in CA3 48-FB.

Iron Man v3 #50  FB

This first flashback presumably occurs on Christmas Eve, given both dialog 
reference to it and the presence of Christmas trees and mistletoe, but this 
flashback must occur in continuity (between IM3 49 and 50) given the plot 
references made here.  So the Christmas references are, regrettably, topical.  
It is "one week" before IM3 50.

Captain America: Dead Men Running #1
Captain America: Dead Men Running #2
Captain America: Dead Men Running #3

Possibly one day (I dont have the first issue so Im not sure).  Placement 
here, between CA3 50/6 and CA4 1, is based on publication chronology for Cap 
issues.  Plus, it offers an excuse for Deadline #1.

Nightcrawler v2 #1
Nightcrawler v2 #2
Nightcrawler v2 #3
Nightcrawler v2 #4

I need help here, as I dont have this series.  Placement before Brotherhood #8 
is based on Jephs work.

Cable v2 #105

Dont have this issue, but Jeph places Cable in Rio, and hes still there in 
Brotherhood.  Temporal references?  I hope its not Carnivale, as that should 
have happened before the March 31 reference in C2 104.

Brotherhood #7
Brotherhood #8
Brotherhood #9

I dont have issue #7 or #9, but #8 takes place one day, before X 114.  
Cables in Brazil, placing this just after C2 105 and before C2 106.  Lacunas 
presence on a billboard places this after XFO 122.  Nightcrawlers presence 
with the X-Men suggests placement after his limited series.

X-Men Unlimited #33/1

The Blob appears here one day sometime between X 112 and UX 401.

X-Men Unlimited #36/3 (pages 7-12)

This story ends "three weeks" after XU 36/3 pg. 5-7, during which time the 
Beast has devoted himself to the care of the mutated cat, leaving no room for 
other adventures. Hanks reference to "reports of Third Species radicals" that 
he actually encounters in X 01 means that this story ends before X 01.  
After this story, Hank fully heals and rejoins the X-Treme team for X:SC.  
Green grass and trees in Westchester.

Iron Man v3 #50
Iron Man v3 #54  FB
Iron Man v3 #50

A span of several days the week after IM3 50FB.  There is snow, which is 
possible, but not very likely.

X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #1
X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #2
X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #3
X-Treme X-Men: Savage Land #4

This series occurs during one night and the next day.  It occurs between 
XX 4 and 5.  The Beast has recovered and appears here after the end of XU 
36/3.

New X-Men #114
New X-Men #115
New X-Men #116

These issues probably span two days, sometime after UX 394 and Brotherhood #8. 
Emma shows up.  Scott and Jean have barely touched each other for "five 
months."  This means that it must be five months or more since the Search for 
Cyclops series, which had to take place before 9-11.  Wolverine sustains 
injuries that tax his healing factor.  There is a reference to a new school 
term starting Monday.

Cable v2 #106
Cable v2 #107

I dont have these issues, so temporal references would again be appreciated.  
Two years before Soldier X #1.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #44
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #45
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #46
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #47
Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #48

PPSM2 44-46 span about six days, the third of which is a school day.  Rain, 
which I interpret as spring rain.  It is unlikely that the Spidey/Morlun fight 
(ASM2 32-38) occurs between PPSM2 44 and 45.

Avengers v3 #55

One day "three weeks" after A3 54.  Thor returns and I offer this as Caps 
first post-death appearance with the Assemblers.

New X-Men Annual 2001

One day and the next day.  This story must occur between X 116 and 117 and 
after the Iceman series.  Because the Beast faces what he only heard rumored 
in XU 36/3 end, this story must occur after the end of XU 36/3.

Avengers v3 #56  FB

This story occurs before Thor has left to do the monarch bit in Asgard.  
Indeed, this may occur before the last page of T2 32, which leads directly 
into the plot culminating in Odins death.  The cat-like Beast appears.  Iron 
Mans identity is probably not revealed before this flashback.

X-Men Unlimited #34/1

A span of five days, "Monday" through "Friday."  A Jubilee and Skin story 
that occurs between GX 75 and UX 404.

Thor v2 #32 (last page)

I propose that a time gap exists between the last two pages of this issue.  
All but the last page is linked to Maximum Security, and the last page starts 
us on a continuous ride that takes us to Odins death, which must postdate A3 
55 and perhaps A3 56-FB as well.  What we see here is Thor bringing Beta Ray 
Bill to Jake Olsons apartment, probably after a length of time in which Bill 
stayed in Asgard.  (Although Bill asks Thor whether the apartment is where 
Thor stays when he is mortal, Bill has been there before, with the Warriors 
Three in T2 31.)  A time gap is suggested in T2 33 when Jake asks his mother 
to remember the events of Maximum Security; he notes that it happened "a 
couple of weeks ago," but maybe it just seems like it.

Thor v2 #33
Thor v2 #34
Thor v2 #35
Thor v2 #36
Thor v2 #37
Thor v2 #38
Thor v2 #39
Thor v2 #40
Thor v2 #41
Thor v2 #42

All these issues form a continuous narrative of a couple of days that includes 
the death of Odin.  T2 41 occurs "only days" before the first flashback in T2 
45.  The snow in T2 33-34 must be topical.

JUNE

Marvel Knights v2 #1
Marvel Knights v2 #2
Marvel Knights v2 #3

I have the first two issues.  MK2 1 occurs on a night with a full moon and 
lunar eclipse.  It looks like MK2 2 occurs the next day, and MK2 3 seems to 
continue from MK2 2.  

Iron Man v3 #51
Iron Man v3 #52

IM3 51-52 cover a span of three days with a full moon shown.

Uncanny X-Men #395

One night with a full moon.  Chamber finally turns up in London after not 
showing up at Xaviers following the events of GX 75.  Logan is healed from 
the injuries he sustained in X 116, but apparently his system isnt quite back 
up to speed, as referenced in X 117.

Uncanny X-Men #396

The day after UX 395 and the day after that.  Full moon.

Uncanny X-Men #397

Same night as the end of UX 396 and the next day.

Uncanny X-Men #398

Same night as the end of UX 397 and the next day.

Tigra #2

This issue spans three days.  It is long enough after Tigra 1 for Greer to be 
enrolled in the NYPD Academy.  It must be June 2-4.

Tigra #3

The same night as the end of Tigra 2 and the next night  June 4 and "June 5."
I dont have Tigra #4, so Ill need someone to help me out here.

Thor v2 #43

Preparations are being made for Odins funeral "tomorrow."

Thor v2 #44

Odins funeral, the day after T2 43, during which time Thor has grown a nice 
beard.  This makes me question whether a day on Asgard equals a day on earth.  
Thor has not demonstrated the ability to grow a beard within an earth day; if 
he had, he would have had to take shaving breaks during any number of previous 
adventures to stay clean-shaven.  It is here that Thor sheds his classic 
costume, so all scenes showing that costume must occur before now (actually 
before T2 43).  It is "barely a month" before T2 45 and so its barely two 
weeks before the second flashback in T2 45.

Thor v2 #45  FB #1

This flashback occurs after T2 44 (no more classic Thor costume), and "only 
days" after Odins death in T2 41.  This flashback occurs before BP3 46.

New X-Men #117

One night.  Wolverine has been meditating in the woods for "four days" since 
his last appearance (offered here as UX 398) to fully recover from the 
injuries of X 116.  We see bare and green trees and the weather seems mild.

Thunderbolts #67

TB 67 is supposed to occur "twelve weeks" after the flashback shown on page 5, 
which itself occurs shortly after TB 56.  This cant be right, as this would 
mean an inordinate amount of time for Hawkeye to be on his mission.

Thunderbolts #69
Thunderbolts #71
Thunderbolts #73

TB 67-73 occur during the course of one day (although TB 73 may go beyond 
that).  Green grass and trees.

New X-Men #118

It appears to be the day after X 117 and the day after that.  The first day is 
a school day at Xaviers.  Again, we have green trees, bare trees, and mild 
weather.  Jean makes a reference to the events of X 01.

New X-Men #119
New X-Men #120
New X-Men #121

X 119-121 occur the same night as X 118.  Full moon.

Thunderbolts #70

It is "sixteen months" after Paris of Counter Earth was annihilated by a 
meteor strike.

Thunderbolts #72

Same day as TB 70.  "Weeks" after TB 64 pg. 10-20.

Thunderbolts #74
Thunderbolts #75

Im banking on the finale of this long TB storyline to wrap up pretty quickly 
and result in Hawkeyes BTS availability for Deadline #2.

X-Factor v2 #2 (pages 6-12)

One day and the next day, more than "two months" into baseball season.

The Hood #1

One day.  9-11 is referenced here, so this issue occurs after ASM2 36.  There 
is a reference to Giuliani being "gone five months;" since New York mayors 
take office in January, that would place this story in June.  There is also a 
reference to an explosion at ESU involving mutants, perhaps tied to the mutant 
murders referenced in Chamber #1.  And is Electro here before or after You Can 
Call Me Al #2 (which leads into Get Kraven)?

New X-Men #122

One day, shortly after X 121.  We see green grass and trees in Westchester.

Deadline #1

One day.  The headline, "Captain America: Whos Under the Mask Now?," suggests 
that Cap has resurfaced publicly after his presumed "death,"although some 
believe that a new man has taken the identity (its happened before).  Thus 
Id place it after CA:DMR 3 and before CA3 1-4, at the end of which Caps true 
identity is revealed.  A reference is made to it being "six months" since 
"June," but this cant be a December story.

Deadline #2

The day after Deadline #1.  "About three months" after the flashback in this 
issue.  Batroc has been struck by an arrow fired by Hawkeye, so this story 
must occur after TB 75.  The battle between Spidey and Doc Ock is not the one 
shown in PP:SM 41  the setting and choreography dont match.  So whats the 
scoop?  Both issues #1 and #2 show coat weather and its raining in #2 (a 
spring shower?).

Deadline #3
Deadline #4

I dont have issues #3-4, though I understand we have reason to believe that 
they occur before Daredevil reveals his identity (DD2 32) from comments made 
by Ben Urich in issue #4.  Does anyone have temporal references from these 
two issues?

Wolverine Annual 2001/1
Wolverine Annual 2001/2
Wolverine v2 #170
Wolverine v2 #171
Wolverine v2 #172
Wolverine v2 #173
Wolverine v2 #174
Wolverine v2 #175
Wolverine v2 #176

Out of all these issues, I have only issue #172, which continues from #171 
and occurs on one day.  According to Jeph, the two annual stories serve as 
prelude to W2 170-176.  Can anyone help with temporal references?

X-Treme X-Men #5

One night and the next night.  Xaviers TV appearance from New X-Men #116 is 
rebroadcast here, but it may be weeks after Xavier reveals his secret.  Trish 
Tilby appears here after X 117.

X-Treme X-Men #6
X-Treme X-Men #7
X-Treme X-Men #8

Sage becomes catatonic here.

X-Treme X-Men #9

Probably the day after XX 8.  Sage is still catatonic.  Jean states that she 
gives her first press conference "in a few hours."  That press conference 
happens in NXM 123.  This issue occurs before XX 01. Green trees at Xaviers.

New X-Men #123
New X-Men #124
New X-Men #125
New X-Men #126

X 123-126 occur the same day as XX 9.  In X 123 we see autumnal colors, which 
must be topical.

Daredevil v2 #32

Matt Murdock is revealed to be Daredevil.  Since this makes such widespread 
news within the Marvel Universe, this story is placed before Iron Mans and 
Caps un-maskings.  DD2 32 also must occur after Deadline #4.  I have not 
placed other issues of DD2, as I dont collect the series, and I only have a 
few issues of Elektra, so that series is not on this list.  Can anyone help 
with temporal references for these series?

X-Men Unlimited #36/2 (page 12)

Students sent by Magneto in the first portion of this story finally make it to 
Xaviers school (where have they been?), sometime after X 126 (as Xavier is in 
his own body), and probably sometime before UX 410.

Thor v2 #45  FB #2

It must be barely two weeks after T2 44 as it is "two weeks" before T2 45, 
which occurs "barely a month" after T2 44.

Fantastic Four v3 #50/4

A span of a few days including Reeds and Sues wedding anniversary and we all 
know from the Official Marvel Index to the Fantastic Four #3 that Reed and Sue 
were married in "late June" (FF@ 3).

Captain America v4 #1
Captain America v4 #2
Captain America v4 #3

Cap unmasks on national television in CA4 3.  CA4 1-3 occur on Easter, "seven 
months" after CA4 1-FB, but this, unfortunately, must be a topical reference.  
Besides, why all the time between these issues and the Independence Day setting 
of CA4 4?  This story must occur after CA 01, in which Caps ID is still 
secret.

X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001/1

One day, between XX 9 and 10 and "weeks" after XX 4.  There are green grass 
and trees in Sydney.

Defenders v2 #12/1
Defenders v2 #12/2
Order #1

The Defenders become the Order.  According to writer Kurt Busiek, The Order 
occurs after A3 55, which is why Thor is not in the series.

Black Panther v3 #41

Iron Man appears in his Grell-Ryan armor, pushing this after the Kang War 
proper. We also saw that T'Challa was apparently on friendly terms with Iron 
Man during The Order, suggesting this storyline occurs after that one.  Iron 
Mans identity is not shown as having been revealed, so this story occurs 
before the end of IM 54.  Placement here is corroborated by Thors chronology; 
see BP3 46 below.

Spider-Man and Jay Leno

This three-part story, seen at the backs of various titles, takes place during 
a weekday a month before Sweet Charity.

Uncanny X-Men #399

One day.  Full moon.

Uncanny X-Men #400

Perhaps the day after UX 399.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.  Stacy X 
joins the X-Men.

JULY

Deadpool v2 #67

One day.  Full moon.

Fantastic Four v3 #55

A night with a full moon.  Right after the Richards anniversary in FF3 50/4.  
It is "256 months" -- 21 years and four months -- after Reed and Sue first 
met.  This puts Sue at about age 40, or at the youngest in her late thirties.  
Aha!! I knew it  Marvel Time isnt as compact as weve been led to believe.  
With all thats happened, how can it be only 7 or 10 years since FF 1?  
Another reason why Franklin cant really be seven.

X-Treme X-Men #10X-Treme X-Men #11

Given that we have the introduction of the Grell-Ryan armor so close before 
the Kang War proper, Khans invasion almost has to occur afterwards.  The 
White House has been restored by this point.  The most logical place for Thor 
to appear here is between T3 42 and 43.  In T3 42, Thor overcomes his grief 
over Odins death and decides to turn his attentions to Asgard.  In T3 43, 
Tarene is charged with assuming Thors place on earth.  So my theory is that 
Thor (in classic costume, without beard) returned to earth sometime between 
T2 42 and 43 to put some affairs in order, including taking a leave of absence 
from the Avengers, and while doing that reports of Khans invasion come 
pouring in.

X-Treme X-Men #12
X-Treme X-Men #13 
X-Treme X-Men #14
X-Treme X-Men #15
X-Treme X-Men #16 
X-Treme X-Men #17
X-Treme X-Men #18

These issues seem to take place over the course of two days.  Storm, Rogue, 
and Gambit are gravely injured.  Theres a full moon.

Black Panther v3 #42 

BP3 23 is referred to as having occurred "last year." Full moon.

Black Panther v3 #43

Sues not pregnant here...really.

Black Panther v3 #44 FB
Black Panther v3 #44
Black Panther v3 #45

Black Panther and Iron Man accidentally put a large hole in the White House. 
Placing that incident here would help justify Wasps pointing out the 
reconstruction in A3 #57.  This issue occurs before the attack on Pepper in 
IM3 54 beginning.

Black Panther v3 #46 

It is shown that it is known that Thor has assumed the throne of Asgard, so 
BP3 41 must occur after the A3 56-FB.

Black Panther v3 #47 

The story in BP3 41-47 occur over the course of a couple of days.

Black Panther v3 #48  FB #3
Black Panther v3 #48  FB #2
Black Panther v3 #48  FB #1
Black Panther v3 #48  FB #4

These flashbacks occur the same day as the end of BP3 47, the week before BP3 
48FB #5.

Uncanny X-Men Annual 2001

One day.  Stacy X is newly arrived, so this story occurs between UX 400 and 
401.

X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001/2

One night.  This story must occur between X 117 and XU 36/1.

Captain America v4 #4

One day.  We see fireworks on "July 4."

Uncanny X-Men #401
Uncanny X-Men #402
Uncanny X-Men #403
Uncanny X-Men #404
Uncanny X-Men #405
Uncanny X-Men #406
Uncanny X-Men #407

These issues span four days.  Enough time needs to pass since GX 75 for 
Banshee to gather his X-Corps resources.  We see topical snow and a full 
moon.

Thor v2 #45

It is "two weeks" after the second flashback in this issue.  It is "barely a 
month" after T2 44, which occurred within a day or so of A3 56-FB.  As A3 56 
occurs about a month after A3 56-FB, T2 45 must occur around A3 56.  Im 
inclined to think that the costume Thor wears in A3 56 makes its first 
appearance here.

Order #2
Order #3
Order #4
Order #5
Order #6

These five issues probably span two days, long enough after Order #1 for the 
Parringtons to set up a headquarters for the Defenders.  Issue #3 depicts the 
first time the curse has transported the Order "in over a week."  Full moon in 
issue #2.  Jeph theorizes that Prof. X is here shortly after X 126 and that he 
is seated because he is still uncomfortable walking after his spine was 
healed.  H3 34 must occur after the Order series, since that issue marks the 
start of the shaved-head Hulk.  I do not collect H3, so can anyone help with 
temporal references from that series?

Black Panther v3 #48  FB #5
Black Panther v3 #49  FB #2

These two flashbacks occur during a day the week after the first four 
flashbacks in BP3 48.

Uncanny X-Men #408

One day and the next day.  The events of UX 407 are noted as "recent."

Avengers v3 #56

One day.  Stark has only recently revealed his identity, and it's not quite 
common knowledge yet, thus putting this shortly after IM3 55.  Thor is in the 
costume he was first seen wearing in T2 45, the events of T2 46-50 leave 
little room for gaps, and Thor brings Asgard to earth at the end of T2 50.  
That memorable event should postdate A3 56.  So I place A3 56 between T2 45 
and 46.  (Placement of A3 57 is uncertain at this point.  It remains to be 
seen how the Avengers will figure into the Asgard-on-earth plot line begun 
in T2 51 below.)

Fantastic Four v3 #56

One night.

X-Factor v2 #2 (pages 13-14)

Tony Robb has his 72nd homer of the season on "a balmy summer night in 
Baltimore."

Thor v2 #46
Thor v2 #47
Thor v2 #48
Thor v2 #49
Thor v2 #50/1
Thor v2 #50/2
Thor v2 #51

These issues occur over the course of a day, "a hundred days" before T2 53.  
Even though we see green grass and warm weather in New York, someone in issue 
#46 says that its "February."  Ill go with the green and warmth.

Black Panther v3 #48
Black Panther v3 #49

BP3 48-49 occur "three days" after the second flashback in BP3 49.

Captain Marvel v5 #27
Captain Marvel v5 #28
Captain Marvel v5 #29
Captain Marvel v5 #30
Captain Marvel v5 #31

One day.  Long enough after CA4 50/6 for Rick to grow facial hair.  I placed 
these issues after Captain Marvels appearance in The Order.

Uncanny X-Men #409 (pages 1-11)

Logans been hanging around for "a week" since UX 408.  It is "two weeks" 
before UX 409 pg. 12-13.

Iron Man v3 #53

One day.

Iron Man v3 #54 (beginning)

Same day as IM3 53.  Pepper is hurt in this segment, so this segment must 
occur after her appearances in BP3 42-45.

Thing: Freakshow #1
Thing: Freakshow #2 

Between FF3 56 and 57.

Tangled Web #18

Sean links this to Freakshow #1.

X-Men Unlimited #36/1

A "Saturday" and Sunday during the college year.  Seeing that this story must 
occur after XX 01/2, I theorize that it is a summer semester in which Kitty 
is taking classes to make up for starting in the spring.  Green grass and trees 
in Chicago.

Uncanny X-Men #409 (pages 12-13)

One night "two weeks" after UX 409 pg. 1-11.  Shortly before the arranged 
meeting seen in UX 409 pg. 14-24.

Fantastic Four v3 #57
Fantastic Four v3 #58
Fantastic Four v3 #59

FF3 57-59 occur during one day.  Reed uses a piece of Ben's hide from 
Freakshow to analyze recent changes in his skin.  Thing loses his ability to 
become Ben Grimm.

Deadpool v2 #69

I dont have this issue.  Placement based on Jephs work, with Cap here after 
A3 56 and Siryn before X 128.

Captain Marvel v5 #32
Captain Marvel v5 #33
Captain Marvel v5 #34
Captain Marvel v5 #35

One day.  Its too early to place CM6 1 at this point.

Iron Man v3 #54 (end)

One day, "ten days" after the beginning of IM3 54.

Iron Man v3 #55/1
Iron Man v3 #55/2 (beginning)

The first story in this issue occurs on the same day as the end of IM3 54 and 
leads into the beginning of the second story in this issue.

Iron Man v3 #55/2 (end)

Tony Stark unmasks in IM3 55/2, probably following Caps lead.  IM3 55/2 ends 
about four days after it begins, as it is "two weeks" after the beginning of 
IM3 54.  If it makes sense for Daredevil to have unmasked before Iron Man, 
then DD2 32 occurs before now.

Uncanny X-Men #409 (pages 14-24)

The narrative tells us that its "Wednesday, July 2."  (This date doesnt 
match those mentioned in XF2 1 and would mean that 9-11 was a Wednesday in 
the MU.)  It is shortly after UX 409 pg. 12-13.

Iron Man v3 #56
Iron Man v3 #57
Iron Man v3 #58

IM3 56-58 occur the night of the day after the end of the second story in IM3 
55.  Theres a full moon.

AUGUST

Spider-Man: Sweet Charity

A span of five days  Wednesday through Monday.  Full moon.  We see Ben 
Grimms second charity auction.  As noted by others, this story should happen 
long after 9/11, so it is likely camping season of the following year.  We 
also have to leave enough time for Hawkeye to finish his covert assignment in 
Thunderbolts to appear here.  Spider-Man appeared on The Tonight Show "last 
month."

X-Factor v2 #2 (pages 13-14)

Tony Robb has his 72nd homer of the season on "a balmy summer night in 
Baltimore."

X-Factor v2 #2 (pages 15-19)

One day, as Tony Robb goes for his 73rd homer.  A "week" before XF2 2 pg. 
19-22. Nightcrawler appears.

New X-Men #127

One day.

New X-Men #128
New X-Men #129
New X-Men #130

X 128-130 occur during one day.  Darkstar dies.

New X-Men #131

One day, probably a few days after X 130, as we see Darkstars funeral.  Since 
Archangel is still blue here, this issue must occur before UX 410.

New X-Men #132

Probably the day after X2 131.  A group of X-Men are on their way from the 
Paris funeral of Darkstar to India when the stop in Genosha, where Storm has 
been for "three days" (thus missing the funeral).  A comment by Sabra about 
this being the worst "weekend" of her life suggests that X2 131 occurs on 
Saturday and this issue on a Sunday.  Polaris returns.

Wolverine v2 #177
Wolverine v2 #178
Wolverine v2 #179
Wolverine v2 #180

I have only one of these issues, so placement is, again, based on Jephs work 
(around X 128-130 and before UX 410).  Temporal references anyone?

X-Factor v2 #2 (pages 19-22)

One day, a "week" after XF2 2 pg. 15-19.

Thor v2 #52

One day.

Fantastic Four v3 #60

This issue spans a week, from "Sunday" through "Saturday."

Iron Man v3 #59
Iron Man v3 #60
Iron Man v3 #61

One day.

Fantastic Four v3 #61

One day.  Green trees in New York.

Chamber #1
Chamber #2
Chamber #3
Chamber #4

Jonathan at college, perhaps at the beginning of the school year.  I dont 
have this series (only #1 and #2 published to date), so some help would be 
great.  I know theres a full moon in issue #3.

SEPTEMBER

Uncanny X-Men #410
Uncanny X-Men #411
Uncanny X-Men #412
Uncanny X-Men #413

UX 410-413 occur during the course of a day, a "year" after XF 149.  Since 
this story ends with Archangel losing his blue skin color, it must occur after 
X 131.  Chamber has gone off to college.  Green grass and trees in Vancouver 
and upstate New York.  Jackets in Vancouver and warm weather at Xaviers.

Uncanny X-Men #414

One day, "months" after X 113.  UX 412 is referred to as having occurred "the 
other day." Green grass and trees in Ontario. 

OCTOBER

Thor v2 #53

One day, "a hundred days" after T2 51, so I figure its mid-October.  So what 
have Thors teammates been doing during this time, with Asgard floating over 
Manhattan and Thor drawing worshipers?  We also have to keep in mind that if 
stories in other titles show Manhattan with no floating Asgard above it, well 
have to place those stories either before or after this 100+-day period.

Thor v2 #54

One day.  Green grass and trees in Manhattan, over which Asgard still floats.

Avengers v3 #57
Avengers v3 #58
Avengers v3 #59

A3 57-59 occur over the course of two days.  Its not clear yet how the 
Asgard-over-Manhattan storyline ties into Avengers chronology, so I placed 
this afterward for now.

Then theres that Ant-Man appearance as an Avenger in Alias #16 which would 
need to occur after these issues.  And Alias #16 ties directly into Daredevil 
chronology, so we have other determining factors in placement.  More details 
about Alias and Daredevil would help.

			*	*	*

Re: Paul's new calendar...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 07, 2002 at 07:11:06:
In Reply to: Paul's new calendar...
posted by Administrator on October 05, 2002 at 23:57:37:

Thanks for doing this, Russ.  If anyone wants a shorter copy in WordPerfect 
for closer scrutiny, I can e-mail the document, too.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Paul's new calendar...
Posted by Antonio Gavio on October 07, 2002 at 16:41:10:
In Reply to: Paul's new calendar...
posted by Administrator on October 05, 2002 at 23:57:37:

Since a reply to such a long post would take too long to finish I guess I'll 
just post one every time that I notice things that don't seem to fit well as 
I go  along. Of course I would be interested in a shorter copy for closer 
scrutiny. 

Just for starters here is a minor error that you might have noticed by now:

...

AUGUST

...

>Thunderbolts #42

>One day, perhaps the day after TB 41. This issue must occur after A3 31 and 
it is "a few days" before A3 32. 

>Avengers v3 #31 

>One day. The Vision returns. The Beast reports that Wonder Man has been 
missing for "almost a week." The suggestion here is that Hank and Simon last 
hung out together in Avengers Two, but it is possible they decided to chum 
around following HC 3, and it is HC 3 that occurred a week before this issue. 
It is after IM 00 and "a few days" before A3 32. I place this story between 
H 00 and TB 42.

...

You are placing TB 42 before A3 31 even though you say that TB 42 must occur 
after it. 

By the way I can be of some help with Tangled Web and Vision later on.

			*	*	*

Re: Paul's new calendar...
Posted by Antonio Gavio on October 08, 2002 at 00:59:18:
In Reply to: Paul's new calendar...
posted by Administrator on October 05, 2002 at 23:57:37:

Let it not be said that we don't acknowledge such an astounding effort on 
your part Paul, to try to put  the events of so many comics together. Excelent 
job.

With that said on with the critics; all of them constructive, of course.

What's your reasoning behind placing DP2 44 and BP3 23 after A3 34 and not 
before A3 31 as Russ already does? The Avengers line-up for those two issues 
(Cap, Simon and Vision absent, She-Hulk present) seems to fit better before 
A3 31.

You propose that PPSM2 33 is a "flashback" issue that should be placed during 
the preceding May, as it marks the anniversary of Ben Parkers death, but 
Peter is shown in his current apartment here, so I'd say it is a "flashforward" 
issue to be placed during the upcoming May.

You place PPSM2 34( Peter has to grade papers that are "due Friday," so school 
is in session) before ASM2 32. Are you taking into account that in AMS2 32 
Peter is in his first day back at his old high school (now teaching)? 

Here's  another minor error:
...

>Maximum Security: Dangerous Planet #1 (pages 23-40)

>One day and the next day, beginning "five days" after MSDP 1 pg. 21-22.

>Maximum Security: Dangerous Planet #1  FB #2: beginning

**This should be Maximum Security #1- FB #2: beginning**

>Day after the end of MSDP 1 pg. 23-40.

>Maximum Security #1 FB #2: end

>One day, not long after the beginning of this flashback. It is "two weeks" 
before Gam2 23.

...

I've spotted a few other things that I'll mention later. 

If you'd be so gentle of e-mailing me that shorter version for closer scrutiny 
my e-mail address is antoniogavino@hotmail.com. Thanks in advance.

			*	*	*

PPSM2 44-48
Posted by Antonio Gavio on October 10, 2002 at 02:06:09:
In Reply to: Paul's new calendar...
posted by Administrator on October 05, 2002 at 23:57:37:

  Spidey mentions to Green Goblin being June 10th in PPSM2 44. You already 
have those issues placed in late May. Anything to hold you from moving them a 
few days later to early June?

			*	*	*

Re: PPSM2 44-48
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 10, 2002 at 21:51:07:<p>
In Reply to: PPSM2 44-48
posted by Antonio Gavio on October 10, 2002 at 02:06:09:

>   Spidey mentions to Green Goblin being June 10th in PPSM2 44. You already 
have those issues placed in late May. Anything to hold you from moving them 
a few days later to early June?

Good eye, Antonio!  Aside from a full moon in PPSM2 48, there's nothing to 
prevent me from moving PPSM2 44 to June 10.  I'm going to move PPSM2 44-49 
and get more specific about time passage in those issues.  Thanks!

I'm addressing previous comments and making adjustments accordingly.  I'm also 
adding new entries as I encounter them and correcting a few mistakes I caught 
myself.  So far, so good.  No major problems, but that may change...

--Paul

			*	*	*

IM3 46
Posted by Antonio Gavio on October 11, 2002 at 08:37:56:
In Reply to: Paul's new calendar...
posted by Administrator on October 05, 2002 at 23:57:37:

>Iron Man v3 #46 (pages 1-15)

>Same day. Hank Pym, as Goliath, tells Tony that his artificial heart is 
evolving. Tony learns about the Church of Yinsen, established "a few weeks" 
earlier. Iron Man is alerted to the attack at Askew and battles a mind-
controlled Sun Tao, defeats him, and learns that the SKIN technology has been 
stolen from Askew. He suspects that the armor Sun Tao wears is not the 
original sentient armor. Right after this, Tony doffs the transitional armor, 
puts on the classic armor and takes the transitional armor to Avengers 
Mansion to do some testing behind the scenes. Meanwhile, Hank shops with Jan 
behind the scenes.

  The first two pages of IM3 46 are supposed to happen three weeks before 
pages 3-15. I don't see a mention to this anywhere. Are these scenes that 
have already been seen before? 

			*	*	*

Re: IM3 46
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 11, 2002 at 20:09:25:
In Reply to: IM3 46
posted by Antonio Gavio on October 11, 2002 at 08:37:56:

You are absolutely right, Antonio.  I've have changed this entry to pages 
3-15 and added a new entry for pages 1-2 three weeks earlier.  I also changed 
the wording for IM3 47--FB #1 (end) to reflect the presence of the new entry.  
Thanks!

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Paul's new calendar...
Posted by Antonio Gavio on October 12, 2002 at 08:54:10:
In Reply to: Paul's new calendar...
posted by Administrator on October 05, 2002 at 23:57:37:

>Tangled Web: The Thousand #1
>Tangled Web: The Thousand #2
>Tangled Web: The Thousand #3

>	One day with a rainy night.  I don't have issue #3; it may extend 
beyond this day.  Any temporal references for that issue?  According to Russ, 
these issues occur between ASM '01 and ASM2 30.

Rest assured on this one, TW 3 all happens the same night as TW 2. The moon 
is shown in its Waning Crescent phase.

			*	*	*

Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
Posted by Antonio Gavio on October 17, 2002 at 08:13:27:
In Reply to: Paul's new calendar...
posted by Administrator on October 05, 2002 at 23:57:37:

>DECEMBER

>...

>Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1

>Sad to day, I dont have this comic. I recall leafing through it in the 
store and noting that Justice and Firestar were visiting Avengers mansion 
sometime after their departure in A3 25. I also noted it as going before 
IM3  for some reason. Those of you who do have this issue: does it make 
sense to place it here  the same Christmas as CA3 50/1 and between A37 
and 38? And whats up with IM3 ?

It actually doesn't make sense to place it here, but it is also a problem 
to find where it can fit. This story is supposed to happen after Justice 
changes his costume in A3 24 and before Giant Man switches to his Goliath 
identity in A3 27. The best place to put it would then be between A3 25 and 
A3 26 but the problem is that the Vision is present and he was supposed to 
be gone from A3 23 to A3 31. And then I'm not sure that if placed in a 
calendar A3 25 and 26 occur around Christmas time.

			*	*	*

Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 18, 2002 at 20:40:40:
In Reply to: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
posted by Antonio Gavio on October 17, 2002 at 08:13:27:

Oh no!  Not another Hank Pym identity issue!  Could that Goliath costume have 
been in the wash at Christmas time?  At least we don't have the all-important, 
life-altering switch to Yellowjacket to deal with here. ;)

The Justice costume change and the Vision's presence seem to place this after 
A3 31, and Christmas should occur after that anyway.  So can we deal with 
Hank Pym as Giant-Man, not Goliath?

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 18, 2002 at 21:37:11:
In Reply to: Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 18, 2002 at 20:40:40:

>So can we deal with Hank Pym as Giant-Man, not Goliath?

I guess the heart of the issue is "What, regarding Hank Pym, is the difference 
between Goliath and Giant-Man?"

			*	*	*

Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
Posted by Antonio Gavio on October 19, 2002 at 01:32:26:
In Reply to: Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
posted by Andy Holcombe on October 18, 2002 at 21:37:11:

None other than the name and the costume. He seems pretty established as 
being Giant-Man here (he even introduces himself as Giant-Man when doing a 
phone call). But if you still want to get away with the Giant-Man issue, 
here's some more goodies: Iron Man is using the sentient armor and, to top 
the cake, Hawkeye is present. I'd say it's easier to admit that Vision came 
back for Christmas. 

On other note, I forgot to mention that the issue happens during one day 
when the Avengers have a Christmas party and the next day (a few days before 
Christmas), and on Christmas day. All of them with snow.

			*	*	*

Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 22, 2002 at 21:22:54:
In Reply to: Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
posted by Antonio Gavio on October 19, 2002 at 01:32:26:

> None other than the name and the costume. He seems pretty established as 
being Giant-Man here (he even introduces himself as Giant-Man when doing a 
phone call). But if you still want to get away with the Giant-Man issue, 
here's some more goodies: Iron Man is using the sentient armor and, to 
top the cake, Hawkeye is present. 

Agh!  Talk about continuity glitches!

Iron Man in sentient armor??  That would place this story before IM3 30.  On 
the surface, it would make sense to place it a week before IM3 26, a story 
that supposedly takes place on New Years issue (except theres no way IM3 
26 occurs several months before Maximum Security).

Giant-Man??  That places the story before Pym adopts the Goliath identity 
in A3 27.

Justice out of his cast and in his current costume??  That places the story 
after A3 24.

Given these three clues, we could try to wedge AMBC between A3 24 and 27, 
which itself would be difficult given the general lack of continuity breaks.  
At least Hawkeyes presence wouldnt be difficult to explain (back visiting 
his buds).

But then theres the Visions presence.  He left the Avengers in A3 23 and 
didnt return until A3 31, which occurs weeks later.  In A3 31, the Wasp 
grills the Vision, Where have you been since you bolted on us?  an 
obvious reference to A3 23.  It seems unlikely that Vision would have 
celebrated Christmas with the Assemblers during that gap.

Given character continuity, we just cant place this story on the Christmas 
featured in my calendar :(  

So, it seems we: 1) need to find a spot between A3 24 and 27 for AMBC to go; 
2) come up with an excuse for the Vision to be there during his conspicuous 
absence from the group (a bolt for no good reason in A3 23 and another bolt 
from the Christmas party??); and 3) explain a Christmas that happens in 
summer (along with New Years in IM3 26).  That last one sure is an argument 
for the calendar nay-sayers! 

> On other note, I forgot to mention that the issue happens during one day 
when the Avengers have a Christmas party and the next day (a few days before 
Christmas), and on Christmas day. All of them with snow.

Ugh...Damned topical holidays!

Thanks, though, for checking on this issue.  Any thoughts out there?  Do we 
save this conundrum for another day if it doesnt fit within the time frame 
since Maximum Security?  (The easy thing for me right now is just to yank 
AMBC from the current calendar.)

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
Posted by Antonio Gavio on October 23, 2002 at 01:57:47:
In Reply to: Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 22, 2002 at 21:22:54:

> Thanks, though, for checking on this issue.  Any thoughts out there?  Do 
we save this conundrum for another day if it doesnt fit within the time 
frame since Maximum Security?  (The easy thing for me right now is just to 
yank AMBC from the current calendar.)

Obviously AMBC has to be taken out of your current calendar. 

For a spot between A3 24 and 27 for AMBC to go I already pointed out that 
the only nice spot would be between A3 25 and 26 (CA3 25-28 also occur during 
this same gap). A3 25 follows A3 24 immediately and A3 27 happens the day 
after A3 26.

As for an explanation to the Vision's presence on Christmas, ain't that 
supposed to be a time to put aside all of our differences? :p

			*	*	*

Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
Posted by Kevin  on October 23, 2002 at 07:47:42:
In Reply to: Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
posted by Antonio Gavio on October 23, 2002 at 01:57:47:

The only other way possibly is to move Maximum Security up or down the 
Calender or something, to see if you could squeeze the Antman special in at 
Christmas.  I don't think that's feasible.

			*	*	*

A spot for Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1??
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 24, 2002 at 07:25:11:
In Reply to: Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
posted by Kevin  on October 23, 2002 at 07:47:42:

I think I may have found a good spot for Ant-Mans Big Christmas (AMBC, below).

Heres a rough chronology...

A3 10
Occurs on the anniversary of the Avengers founding (September)

A3 11
Same day as A3 10.  Wonder Man brought back to life.

IM3 10-13
Iron Man finds out his armor is killing him.

A3 12
Vision fully recuperates and has a functioning corporeal body for the first 
time since A3 3.  Hawkeye officially quits the Avengers, but leaves on 
friendly terms.  Tony Stark is out of commission as Iron Man.

A3 13-14
Iron Man still out of commission.  In A3 14, the Beast sees Wonder Man for 
the first time since Simons resurrection in A3 11.

IM3 14
Iron Man risks donning is dangerous armor to assist the Fantastic Four in a 
crossover with FF 13-15.  FF3 13 is noted as occurring in autumn, although 
it follows right on the heels of the Valentines Day story of ASM2 4.  In 
this arrangement, the Valentines Day reference doesnt work.

IM3 15
Iron Man tests his new, non-lethal armor.

A3 15
Iron Man returns to active duty in the Avengers in his retooled armor.

AMBC
Vision is here in his corporeal body.  Beast and Wonder Man are here together.  
Iron Man is here in armor.  Hank Pym is Giant-Man.  Justice is not in a cast.  
Warbird is not here (nor should she be, as she has not returned to the 
Avengers since being drummed out in A3 7).

A3 0 (Wizard Avengers Special)

A3 16
Warbird returns.  It is Mardi Gras.

A3 17
Same day as A3 16.  Justice is injured and has to wear a cast until A3 24.

A3 18
Same day as A3 17.

This is just an initial analysis, without cross-referencing lots of other 
titles, but how does it look from the standpoint of Avengers chronology?

Um?  Oh, that Justice costume thing?  In AMBC, Justice appears in a costume 
he doesnt receive until he gets out of his cast in A3 24.  How can this be?  
Perhaps he was given the new costume as a Christmas present, then trashed it 
in an unpublished adventure that occurred soon after.  He's back in the old 
costume by A3 0.  To celebrate his recuperation in A3 24, the Wasp arranges 
for him to receive a brand-spanking new copy of the AMBC costume.  Okay, so 
Justice shows it off in A3 24 like its the first time anyones seen it, 
including Quicksilver who says that its just ducky.

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: A spot for Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1??
Posted by Jeph! on October 24, 2002 at 10:28:34:
In Reply to: A spot for Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1??
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 24, 2002 at 07:25:11:

> I think I may have found a good spot for Ant-Mans Big Christmas (AMBC, 
below).

> Heres a rough chronology...

Yep -- that's pretty much exactly what I was going to post (although I forgot 
the "Iron Man's armor is killing him" plot).  Two things, though:

- How does this fit in with Thor's book at the time?  I'm FAIRLY sure it's 
okay, but ... is it?

- Why do you have A3 #0, the Wizard special, occuring between A3 #15-16?  If 
memory serves me right, it was intended to fit between #18-19.  Justice is in 
a cast in that issue, I believe.

> how does it look from the standpoint of Avengers chronology?

So far, pretty good.

> Um?  Oh, that Justice costume thing?  In AMBC, Justice appears in a costume 
he doesnt receive until he gets out of his cast in A3 24.  How can this be?

Yeah, I double-checked that last night.  It's pretty clear that he receives 
the costume for the first time in A3 #24, and that he shows it off for the 
first time in that same issue.  Suck.

> Perhaps he was given the new costume as a Christmas present, then trashed 
it in an unpublished adventure that occurred soon after.  He's back in the 
old costume by A3 0.

Actually, Justice's costume in AMBC has got some pretty significant coloring 
differences between the one he shows of in A3 #24.  The arms, legs, and neck 
are completely different colors.

I'm tempted to say that they're just two different versions of the same 
costume, both given to Justice by the Wasp -- the early model as a Christmas 
present, then a snazzier-colored version after he got his cast off (and after 
Jan noticed that Justice didn't seem to be WEARING the initial one).

THAT way, Justice can still show off the one he receives in A3 #24 as "new".  
Because it is -- new and improved!

Eh?  Eh?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: A spot for Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1??
Posted by Antonio Gavio on October 24, 2002 at 21:28:48:
In Reply to: Re: A spot for Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1??
posted by Jeph! on October 24, 2002 at 10:28:34:

Well, well... that's another rabbit out of Jeph's hat.

Calendar-wise, yes, it does makes sense to place AMBC before A3 16 (there's 
really cold weather in this issue and there's snow in BP3 9 which also 
happens before A3 16). 

So, doing a rundown of all the appearances the only problems I've found 
are:

*Black Knight (He is greeted at Avengers Mansion in A3 16 and asked pretty 
much the same question they ask the Vision in issue 31: "What have you been 
up to, Dane!" and he explains what he's been doing. Meaning they haven't seen 
him in a while).

*Captain America (In AMBC he is carrying his regular shield and not the 
energy-shield he was using at the time).

Other than that not even Spider-Man's appearance should be a problem. 

			*	*	*

Calendar Phobia!
Posted by Jeph!on October 23, 2002 at 15:40:22:
In Reply to: Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 22, 2002 at 21:22:54:

Ahhh.  Here we go again with the calendar stuff.

Paul, I've been thinking a lot about your calendar project.  We've already 
had the discussion that YOUR goals are different from the MCP's goals.  I've 
floated my point of view that warping perfectly good existing character-
chronologies to fit the entire MU onto a calendar is detrimental to the MCP.  
You've floated your opinion that many times, placing the issues on a calendar 
can actually HELP an accurate chronology.

And, for a while, I believed you.  I still do, to an extent.  I believe that 
keeping track of "two weeks later" gaps, and noting "this issue took place 
over three days", CAN be, in many cases, the make-or-break point for choosing 
one chronological order over another.

But I think the calendar, as it stands now, is giving us too many problems.  
I was willing to agree to one or two warpings of what seemed to me an 
"obvious" chronological order.  (Placing Sept. 11 before Christmas, for one.)  
But it seems to me that, as we go into more and more detail, more things pop 
up that need to be warped if we're to satisfy your calendar.

AMBC, here, is an example -- as you say, it can't possibly take place on 
Christmas.  So, your solutions include DROPPING it from the calendar, or 
"explaining" a Christmas in mid-summer?  I feel I have to once again speak 
up here.

First off, I hope you're not thinking of PERMANENTLY dropping it out.  I 
mean, surely it's a canon book.  It would seem obvious that it needs to be 
placed into the MCP, regardless of how it messes up your calendar.

As for "explaining" it ... well, the explanation is that you're trying to 
smooth three or four years' worth of topical season rotations into one "year" 
of YOUR OWN creation.  You're trying to create what was not meant to be 
created -- and this is one of the things that's going to stand out as an 
obvious, painful snag.  There's no way around it -- it takes place before 
A3 #27 and IM3 #26 -- and trying to fit it into a more Christmasy setting, 
circa A3 #37 -- well, to me that goes AGAINST the spirit of the MCP.

I think soon we should sit down and draw a line that clearly deliniates the 
difference between YOUR calendar project and your contributions to the MCP -- 
and how much of your calendar goals you should NOT allow to affect your 
contributions to the MCP.

I still believe that your methods have merit -- that, by paying attention to 
in-book cues and placing everything on a TIMELINE, we can help make 
chronological decisions.  But I think a clear difference should be made 
between "timeline" and "calendar".  In trying to DATE everything, pushing 
various references more closely towards what YOU presume to be their set 
calendar dates, you may be hampering or even HURTING some of the chronologies 
the MCP is trying to put together.

I think it's okay if the Avengers' Christmas doesn't match up to the X-Men's 
Christmas.  So long as the character continuities are respected above all 
(remember our "actors before stage-dressing" analogy), the MCP -- which 
doesn't (yet) subscribe to your calendar theory -- is fulfilling its 
function.

----

In the specific case of AMBC: I think it's okay to merge any holiday-
references that were MEANT to be merged, or that merge easily -- AMBC's 
Christmas and IM3 26's New Years, for example.  I think it's a good idea to 
try for little "bubbles" of calendar-LIKE harmony within a single character's 
chronology -- in this case, Iron Man's.

I'd even argue the creation of bubbles of calendar-like harmony within a 
"family" of books -- "Avengers"-family books, or the X-books.  The books 
that have interconnecting characters and interconnecting lives.  Placing 
Cyclops' Christmastime fight in XU #31/2 near other Christmas stories, for 
example.

But even though the Beast appears in both AMBC and X 109, both Christmas 
tales, I *don't* think it's justified to warp everyone else's otherwise-
perfectly-obvious AMBC chronological placement (before A3 #27) simply to 
get the two holidays to line up.  I don't think it's even worth a TRY.

Basically I think that the minute a calendar placement puts up a fight, you 
should stop trying to force it somewhere it shouldn't go.

Philosophical debates, again.  I look forward to your reply...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Calendar Phobia!
Posted by Administrator on October 23, 2002 at 18:48:12:
In Reply to: Calendar Phobia!
posted by Jeph! on October 23, 2002 at 15:40:22:

> Ahhh.  Here we go again with the calendar stuff.

> AMBC, here, is an example -- as you say, it can't possibly take place on 
Christmas.  So, your solutions include DROPPING it from the calendar, or 
"explaining" a Christmas in mid-summer?  I feel I have to once again speak 
up here.

> First off, I hope you're not thinking of PERMANENTLY dropping it out.  I 
mean, surely it's a canon book.  It would seem obvious that it needs to be 
placed into the MCP, regardless of how it messes up your calendar.

There are more intrinsic problems with AMBC than fitting it in a calendar. 
Forget about the calendar for a moment. Forget about Christmas. Where do 
you place the story in each character's chronology so that it works for 
everyone. Paul succinctly summed up one of the problems earlier:

> But then theres the Visions presence. He left the Avengers in A3 23 and 
didnt return until A3 31, which occurs weeks later. In A3 31, the Wasp 
grills the Vision, Where have you been since you bolted on us?  an obvious 
reference to A3 23. It seems unlikely that Vision would have celebrated 
Christmas with the Assemblers during that gap.

> So, it seems we: 1) need to find a spot between A3 24 and 27 for AMBC to 
go; 2) come up with an excuse for the Vision to be there during his 
conspicuous absence from the group (a bolt for no good reason in A3 23 and 
another bolt from the Christmas party??); and 3) [the third part deals with 
a calendar]

For my part, the second stipulation above requires us to jump through just 
as many hoops as trying to place two Christmases in one year. Unless Justice's 
costume and the status of his cast is integral to the storyline (or even just 
mentioned by one of the characters) of AMBC, I'd be more inclined to chalk 
his costume up to artistic license in an attempt to make the story more 
"contemporary" to the reader, and thereby place AMBC earlier in the 
chronologies.

The story element of the Vision appearing here, and later being asked by the 
Wasp "Where have you been all this time?" overrides the cosmetic appearance 
of a character.

			*	*	*

Re: Calendar Phobia!
Posted by Jeph! on October 23, 2002 at 20:56:33:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar Phobia!
posted by Administrator on October 23, 2002 at 18:48:12:

> There are more intrinsic problems with AMBC than fitting it in a calendar. 
Paul succinctly summed up one of the problems earlier:

> > But then theres the Visions presence. He left the Avengers in A3 23 
and didnt return until A3 31, which occurs weeks later. In A3 31, the 
Wasp grills the Vision, Where have you been since you bolted on us?  an 
obvious reference to A3 23. It seems unlikely that Vision would have 
celebrated Christmas with the Assemblers during that gap.

> > So, it seems we ... need to ... come up with an excuse for the Vision 
to be there during his conspicuous absence from the group (a bolt for no 
good reason in A3 23 and another bolt from the Christmas party??)

> For my part, the second stipulation above requires us to jump through just 
as many hoops as trying to place two Christmases in one year.

I agree.  And, as I typed up my last post, bemoaning the idea of "bending 
and warping" chronologies to make One Little Detail work right, I suddenly 
remembered how hell-bent Sean and I were on getting Hank Pym's costume in 
IM3 #46 "right", regardless of how we bent and warped Ultron's continuity.

Well, not "regardless", but you know what I mean.  I suppose that Sean, and 
I, are just as fanatical about certain things as Paul is.  And every last one 
of us is waving the banner of "My POV is best for the MCP".

Sigh.

Guidelines!  I want guidelines!  Otherwise, we'll have to actually, y'know, 
DISCUSS everything.  Ugh.  ;)

> Unless Justice's costume and the status of his cast is integral to the 
storyline (or even just mentioned by one of the characters) of AMBC, I'd be 
more inclined to chalk his costume up to artistic license in an attempt to 
make the story more "contemporary" to the reader, and thereby place AMBC 
earlier in the chronologies.

This is actually a really good explanation, and one I hadn't considered!  (Of 
course, I haven't fished out the issue yet to give it a look, either.)

If you want to give it a "better" explanation, then we could say that the 
Wasp gave Justice that costume FOR CHRISTMAS, and he didn't actually start 
wearing it REGULARLY until A3 #24 -- maybe the fact that he broke his leg 
made him unable to get the newer costume's pants on or something, and he had 
to wait until his cast healed.

In this case, the issue should go before A3 #16, which is the start of the 
arc where Justice breaks his leg.  (I do tend to think that the absence of 
Justice's cast IS important, whereas his costume is not.  Of course, if the 
issue CAN'T take place before A3 #16 for character reasons, I'll give in on 
that point as well.)

> The story element of the Vision appearing here, and later being asked by 
the Wasp "Where have you been all this time?" overrides the cosmetic 
appearance of a character.

Agreed.  Except for the cast.  ;)

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Calendar Phobia!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 23, 2002 at 19:15:10:
In Reply to: Calendar Phobia!
posted by Jeph! on October 23, 2002 at 15:40:22:

> Ahhh.  Here we go again with the calendar stuff.

Tell me about it...

> Paul, I've been thinking a lot about your calendar project.  We've already 
had the discussion that YOUR goals are different from the MCP's goals.  I've 
floated my point of view that warping perfectly good existing character-
chronologies to fit the entire MU onto a calendar is detrimental to the MCP.  
You've floated your opinion that many times, placing the issues on a calendar 
can actually HELP an accurate chronology.

> And, for a while, I believed you.  I still do, to an extent.  I believe 
that keeping track of "two weeks later" gaps, and noting "this issue took 
place over three days", CAN be, in many cases, the make-or-break point for 
choosing one chronological order over another.

> But I think the calendar, as it stands now, is giving us too many problems.  
I was willing to agree to one or two warpings of what seemed to me an 
"obvious" chronological order.  (Placing Sept. 11 before Christmas, for one.)  
But it seems to me that, as we go into more and more detail, more things pop 
up that need to be warped if we're to satisfy your calendar.

> AMBC, here, is an example -- as you say, it can't possibly take place on 
Christmas.  So, your solutions include DROPPING it from the calendar, or 
"explaining" a Christmas in mid-summer?  I feel I have to once again speak up 
here.

> First off, I hope you're not thinking of PERMANENTLY dropping it out.  I 
mean, surely it's a canon book.  It would seem obvious that it needs to be 
placed into the MCP, regardless of how it messes up your calendar.

Of course I wouldn't permanently drop it.  You misunderstand.  The calendar -- 
the one I posted -- starts just before MAXSEC.  AMBC obviously occurs before 
this point.  Thus I need to remove AMBC from that calendar.  It's not being 
considered non-canonical just because it doesn't fit some narrow-minded view 
I have of the MU.

> As for "explaining" it ... well, the explanation is that you're trying to 
smooth three or four years' worth of topical season rotations into one "year" 
of YOUR OWN creation.  You're trying to create what was not meant to be 
created -- and this is one of the things that's going to stand out as an 
obvious, painful snag.  There's no way around it -- it takes place before 
A3 #27 and IM3 #26 -- and trying to fit it into a more Christmasy setting, 
circa A3 #37 -- well, to me that goes AGAINST the spirit of the MCP.

Was I not clear?  I thought I was advocating character chronologies over 
calendar placement in that message.  You know, remove AMBC from Christmas on 
the calendar, place it somewhere between A3 24 and 27, and call that Christmas 
topical.  Nowhere did I suggest warping everyone's chronologies to make AMBC 
occur on the Christmas on "my" calendar.

> I think soon we should sit down and draw a line that clearly deliniates the 
difference between YOUR calendar project and your contributions to the MCP -- 
and how much of your calendar goals you should NOT allow to affect your 
contributions to the MCP.

I guess I have to reiterate that calendar placement is not the sole 
determining judge of chronological placement.  Heck, it's not even the most 
important.  Again, please check my former posts.  I'm not delving into it in 
detail again.

> I still believe that your methods have merit -- that, by paying attention 
to in-book cues and placing everything on a TIMELINE, we can help make 
chronological decisions.  But I think a clear difference should be made 
between "timeline" and "calendar".  In trying to DATE everything, pushing 
various references more closely towards what YOU presume to be their set 
calendar dates, you may be hampering or even HURTING some of the chronologies 
the MCP is trying to put together.

I don't think it's hurting anything on the MCP, but I'll respectfully bow out 
if Russ feels my contributions are somehow tainted.

> I think it's okay if the Avengers' Christmas doesn't match up to the X-Men's 
Christmas.  So long as the character continuities are respected above all 
(remember our "actors before stage-dressing" analogy), the MCP -- which 
doesn't (yet) subscribe to your calendar theory -- is fulfilling its function.

Actors over stage, yes.  When actors don't make a big difference, look at the 
stage.  My calendar points out what the stage looks like as we go through the 
chronologies, and sometimes it helps determine chronologies, but not at the 
expense of other things.  I think I've been through this before...

> In the specific case of AMBC: I think it's okay to merge any holiday-
references that were MEANT to be merged, or that merge easily -- AMBC's 
Christmas and IM3 26's New Years, for example.  I think it's a good idea to 
try for little "bubbles" of calendar-LIKE harmony within a single character's 
chronology -- in this case, Iron Man's.

> I'd even argue the creation of bubbles of calendar-like harmony within a 
"family" of books -- "Avengers"-family books, or the X-books.  The books that 
have interconnecting characters and interconnecting lives.  Placing Cyclops' 
Christmastime fight in XU #31/2 near other Christmas stories, for example.

> But even though the Beast appears in both AMBC and X 109, both Christmas 
tales, I *don't* think it's justified to warp everyone else's otherwise-
perfectly-obvious AMBC chronological placement (before A3 #27) simply to get 
the two holidays to line up.  I don't think it's even worth a TRY.

See above.  Who's trying?  Don't forget, I put AMBC on Christmas in my 
calendar because I don't have the issue and was asking if there were problems 
in putting it there.  The answer is yes; I'm moving it.  'Nuff said.

> Basically I think that the minute a calendar placement puts up a fight, you 
should stop trying to force it somewhere it shouldn't go.

I don't try to force fit anything.  By the same token, I don't give up easily 
without thinking about how things might actually work.

> Philosophical debates, again.  I look forward to your reply...

You got it.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Calendar Phobia!
Posted by Administrator on October 23, 2002 at 20:21:45:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar Phobia!
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 23, 2002 at 19:15:10:

> I don't think it's hurting anything on the MCP, but I'll respectfully bow 
out if Russ feels my contributions are somehow tainted.

Pshaw. I don't think Paul is either hampering or hurting with his calendar. 
He's contributing. A calendar is neither good nor bad. It's a tool, like any 
other. My early discussions with you, Paul, (before there was a Posting Board) 
led me to institute the use of a calendar myself. It's of tremendous benefit 
in keeping straight the order of appearances, but for me, only in the short 
scheme of things. In my calendar, forty years have passed since FF 1. Since 
I have no plans to share my calendar, this shouldn't cause anyone to lose 
sleep.

There's nothing tainted--or sacred--about Paul's calendar. As both he and I 
have noted numerous times, Paul's perfectly willing to listen to reason--but 
it's gotta be reasonable--and let lose the tight reins of calendar placement 
where necessary.

The idea here is to be able to read the stories--from the character's 
perspective--and have them make sense. If we can place appearances on a 
calendar and the stories still make sense, that's great. The calendar works. 
If we can't, the calendar must bend to adapt to the stories, not the other 
way around.

So where's the disagreement? Where has Paul said anything other than that? I 
agree with almost 100% of what Jeph said. I also agree with almost 100% of 
what Paul said. 

Agreeing with everyone gives my a warm, fuzzy feeling inside.

			*	*	*

Re: Calendar Phobia!
Posted by Jeph! on October 23, 2002 at 20:42:07:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar Phobia!
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 23, 2002 at 19:15:10:

> Of course I wouldn't permanently drop it.  You misunderstand.  The 
calendar -- the one I posted -- starts just before MAXSEC.  AMBC obviously 
occurs before this point.  Thus I need to remove AMBC from that calendar.

You're right -- I did misunderstand!  I thought you meant that you'd drop it 
from your "calendar" as a whole, instead of just the portion of the calendar 
currently posted.

>  It's not being considered non-canonical just because it doesn't fit some 
narrow-minded view I have of the MU.

Believe me, I DON'T think you have a narrow-minded view.  I've seen you 
declare more full moons and declared dates non-canon than I've seen you keep.

I'm just still leery about exactly HOW you choose which dates, moons, 
holidays, etc., to keep and which to junk.  And since I don't understand your 
thought process fully, sometimes it strikes me as quite arbitrary.

That's when I worry.  I do trust you, but there are many things even in your 
CURRENT calendar where I just don't understand your thought process.

Suppose I oughtta actually get around to replying to the entire (52-page, 
grumble) thing.

> I guess I have to reiterate that calendar placement is not the sole 
determining judge of chronological placement.  Heck, it's not even the most 
important.  Again, please check my former posts.  I'm not delving into it in 
detail again.

I've READ your former posts.  There's no need to go into detail.  I know that, 
for example, you don't let a little thing like a character saying "it's 
February!" stop you from placing an issue in "June".  I know you don't live 
and die by full moons.

But, you've done quite a few things that I still don't approve of, simply to 
get dates to line up.

The whole "Cyclops/9-11/Christmas" thing, for one -- taking a story that 
otherwise fit exceptionally well between X 110-111, and shuffling loads of 
other things around to make it fit between X 107-108.  It may not have 
affected Cyclops's particular timeline, but it sure affected Wolverine and 
Storm's chronology.

Also, you moved the first story in Cap #50 out of its sequence, and moved it 
back to fit next to other Christmas stories published two years prior.  

It's little things like this that make me think that you don't let go of your 
particular calendar vision quite so easily.

> > But I think a clear difference should be made between "timeline" and 
"calendar".  In trying to DATE everything, pushing various references more 
closely towards what YOU presume to be their set calendar dates, you may be 
hampering or even HURTING some of the chronologies the MCP is trying to put 
together.

> I don't think it's hurting anything on the MCP, but I'll respectfully bow 
out if Russ feels my contributions are somehow tainted.

Oh boy.  Look, all I'm asking for is some sort of guideline.  For situations 
where "regular" methods of chronological ordering suggest one answer, and 
your calendar suggests a wildly different one.

I just think it merits a DISCUSSION (which we've had) and a SOLUTION (which 
we don't).  Of course, I'm newer to this all than you -- if you and Russ have 
already HAD this discussion, please share.  But FROM WHAT I KNOW of how the 
MCP is put together, definitive-calendar placements don't enter in.

> Actors over stage, yes.  When actors don't make a big difference, look at 
the stage.  My calendar points out what the stage looks like as we go through 
the chronologies, and sometimes it helps determine chronologies, but not at 
the expense of other things.  I think I've been through this before...

Yes you have.  But we've never really made a DECISION on how to priceed, have 
we?  We're not unified -- and each of us, you and me and Sean, just keeps 
doing our own thing, with our own rules and our own visions of what the end 
product should look like.

My two examples above, Cap #50 and ASM2 #36, are an example of how you have 
opted to go with the "stage" rather than the direction almost all of the 
actors are pointing.

Overall I think that you do put characters first -- but then there are little 
things like those that make me wonder.  In Cap #50's case, you'd say that it 
doesn't matter where Cap #50/1 is placed, because it's entirely self-
contained. However, many many other issues of other titles have had self-
contained stories -- and as far as I'VE seen, the MCP rule is simply to place 
them in publication order (Cap #50 comes after Cap #49).

IS there an MCP rule for a situation like that?  If not, SHOULD there be?  
I'm highly opposed to placing issues out of published sequence -- and I think 
the only reason to do so would be if CHARACTER details make it necessary -- 
NOT simply because of the stage dressing of Christmas.

> > But even though the Beast appears in both AMBC and X 109, both Christmas 
tales, I *don't* think it's justified to warp everyone else's otherwise-
perfectly-obvious AMBC chronological placement (before A3 #27) simply to get 
the two holidays to line up.  I don't think it's even worth a TRY.

> See above.  Who's trying?

In this case?  Nobody -- and I apologize for my mis-reading.  On the other 
hand, I'm voicing GENERAL concerns at this point -- and I still feel like 
some sort of resolution needs to be found, because I'm finding it hard to 
proceed with my chronology efforts without one.

> I don't try to force fit anything.  By the same token, I don't give up 
easily without thinking about how things might actually work.

I'm sorry, but I do see certain elements of "forcing" going on here -- my 
best example being the above-mentioned "I must place 9/11 before Christmas!" 
effort you undertook a while back.

> You got it.

Thanks.  And, just so nobody gets rubbed the wrong way if this thread 
continues: nothing in here is meant PERSONALLY, nor am I implying you do 
shoddy or thoughtless work.  Just the opposite.  But if I continue to press 
my point, it's (in MY mind) only for the good of the MCP.

Sigh.  This would all work so much better if it was face-to-face.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Calendar Phobia!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 25, 2002 at 22:38:20:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar Phobia!
posted by Jeph! on October 23, 2002 at 20:42:07:

> Also, you moved the first story in Cap #50 out of its sequence, and moved 
it back to fit next to other Christmas stories published two years prior.  

> It's little things like this that make me think that you don't let go of 
your particular calendar vision quite so easily.

CA3 50 was a compilation of stories, some of which fit in the publication 
sequence.  Again, I'm not taking the entire issue "out of order," just the 
first story.

Compilation issues have been known to feature flashback stories.  To me, 
the Christmas setting was just so important to the story in CA3 50/1 that 
I felt the need to place it on a canonical Christmas.  If this means 
considering this a flashback story, I'm comfortable with it.  There are no 
references to other Cap stories or plotlines here, so I feel safe taking 
it out of "proper" order.

Publication order is fairly low on my list of considerations, although we 
can *usually* assume that things happen in published order.  When the story 
indicates that this isn't necessarily so, then why let a "real world" 
consideration (like publication date) dictate an MU consideration?

Again, from a general philosophical approach, I'm following George Olshevsky's 
lead on this, and George's early work formed a foundation for the sequencing 
you see in the MCP.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Calendar Mania!
Posted by Jeph! on October 26, 2002 at 17:03:41:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar Phobia!
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 25, 2002 at 22:38:20:

> CA3 50 was a compilation of stories, some of which fit in the publication 
sequence.  Again, I'm not taking the entire issue "out of order," just the 
first story.

Right -- I guess I have the narrow-minded view that the FIRST story in any 
book is invariably the "main" feature -- generally by the main creative 
team -- and that's the one I'd try to keep in-sequence.  The REST of the 
stories I consider the "back-ups", able to be shuffled out of publication 
order.  In Cap #50's case, though, given the weight of the back-ups, I felt 
that NONE of the stories deserved to be moved.

> To me, the Christmas setting was just so important to the story in CA3 
50/1 that I felt the need to place it on a canonical Christmas.

The thing is, though ... and here I'm going to press the point, even though 
i DO see your side of it ... what you call a "canonical" Christmas is only 
canonical on YOUR calendar, that YOU made.  And you derived this Christmas 
location from X-Men #107, published two years prior.

Casual MCP readers don't know this, though, and your calendar isn't posted 
anywhere on the site.  (Yet.)  If a big Cap fan is trying to read his comic 
books based on the order WE recommend to him, he's going to wonder why on 
earth we say the first story in Cap #50 takes place in with issues #40-41 
(or wherever).  I mean, it wasn't Christmas in THOSE stories...

I guess what I'm saying is, because the MCP *is* a resource for casual fans, 
I feel the need to keep the individual listings as simple as possible -- in 
an order that generally makes sense upon first glance.

This, by the way, is why I sometimes place importance on relative publication 
order -- because, at least back in the old days, the editors tried to USE it.  
They were aware of when their various books were to hit the shelves, and 
tried to rig cross-appearances to make sense to a fan who was reading them 
in the order they came out.  If this proved impossible, they used to put 
footnotes -- "yep, this issue takes place AFTER Thor #134!".  As I grew up 
reading comics, I adapted the mindset that unless otherwise noted, character 
appearances generally tok place in the order the comics hit the stands.

These days, though, most editors don't do the same amount of careful cross-
checking, and it's rare that books hit the shelves the day they were scheduled 
for.  So my stock in "publication order" has fallen -- but I still think it 
can be a useful tool to try to derive creative intent.

As an addendum to what I said above: I also feel that the MCP, wherever 
possible, should try to reflect Marvel's creative INTENT.  And that's why I 
try to incorporate publication order when it makes sense.

> If this means considering this a flashback story, I'm comfortable with it.  
There are no references to other Cap stories or plotlines here, so I feel 
safe taking it out of "proper" order.

True.  But, again, the ONLY reason you're doing it is to make it line up 
with a Christmas in a book that doesn't cross over with Cap's book.  When I 
suggest leaving it where it is, I'm thinking of the casual MCP fans who have 
no idea why we've made this seemingly arbitrary move.  And until your 
calendar is an officially accepted part of the site, people will continue to 
be confused by the placement of this issue.

But, heck -- like you said -- a good five sixths of the book is where it 
belongs.  I'm just continuing this discussion to possibly make my chronology 
views clearer to YOU, as you've done (repeatedly) for me.

> Again, from a general philosophical approach, I'm following George 
Olshevsky's lead on this, and George's early work formed a foundation for 
the sequencing you see in the MCP.

Ergo ... your way is good. :)  Yes?

Where can I learn more about George Olshevsky's work?  Just the Marvel 
Indexes, or is there anywhere else?  If his work guided the MCP so highly, 
I'd probably better read up on it.

I'm curious how well HE stuck to the publication order of the day...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Calendar Mania!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 26, 2002 at 20:41:44:
In Reply to: Calendar Mania!
posted by Jeph! on October 26, 2002 at 17:03:41:

>> > Again, from a general philosophical approach, I'm following George 
Olshevsky's lead on this, and George's early work formed a foundation for 
the sequencing you see in the MCP.

> Ergo ... your way is good. :)  Yes?

Not necessarily good or bad, just consistent with what's happened before.  
Olshevsky did adjust the order of books to conform to a calendar of his 
making, a calendar with at least some measure of approval from Marvel.  (See 
below.)

> Where can I learn more about George Olshevsky's work?  Just the Marvel 
Indexes, or is there anywhere else?  If his work guided the MCP so highly, 
I'd probably better read up on it.

I'll let Russ comment on his opinion of Olshevsky's work.  My (self-appointed) 
job on the Board seems to be to pick up where he left off and provide that 
same approach to chronology work for Marvel comics published since he left 
to pursue other things.

> I'm curious how well HE stuck to the publication order of the day...

I recall that he placed a number of Spider-Man issues out of publication 
sequence.  And you'll see these referenced in the MCP.  Check out M/TU 
between issues 76 and 91.  As Olshevsky noted in OMITTASM 8, page 17: "The 
stories in MARVEL TEAM-UP #76-91 cannot take place in their published 
numerical order.  Rather, they fall naturally into two groups: those that 
happen in winter (M/TU 79 and 82-85) and those that happen in summer (M/TU 
76-78, 80, 81, and 86-91)...."

Visitors to the MCP are liable to scratch their heads, wondering why these 
issues are out of their publication order, just as they might for my CA3 
50/1, if it gets approved.

Adjusting publication order to accommodate a more logical following of a 
calendar (stage setting) is not my idea.

I hope this helps.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Goddamn props.
Posted by Jeph! on October 25, 2002 at 00:29:08:
In Reply to: Re: A spot for Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1??
posted by Antonio Gavio on October 24, 2002 at 21:28:48:

> So, doing a rundown of all the appearances the only problems I've found 
are:
> *Black Knight (He is greeted at Avengers Mansion in A3 16 and asked pretty 
much the same question they ask the Vision in issue 31: "What have you been 
up to, Dane!" and he explains what he's been doing. Meaning they haven't seen 
him in a while).

Eh.  Well, that's easily explained -- maybe at the Christmas party he listed 
all the exciting stuff he had coming up, and when they saw him next they 
wanted an update -- even though it hadn't been that long...  (Ugh, another 
issue I'll have to truck out and check.)

> *Captain America (In AMBC he is carrying his regular shield and not the 
energy-shield he was using at the time).

................that IS a problem.

We could push AMBC up to a spot after Cap gets his regular shield back, but 
that means we'd have to sandwich it in-between A3 #22-23 to account for the 
Vision's presence.  It would solve the Black Knight throwaway-line thing, 
but Justice sould be in his cast by then.

So which "stage prop" is of more importance?  Cap's shield, or Justice's cast?

Personally, I think we could just say that someone gave Cap a "replica" shield 
as a Christmas gift -- a pretty reminder (we've seen Cap keep replica shields 
before), but not very practical for battle -- which explains why we've never 
seen it again.

'Course, we could also say that Justice was "between casts" -- getting a new 
one put on.  This, however, doesn't seem as likely to me, seeing as in A3 #23 
(directly after AMBC if we move it to accomodate Cap's shield), Justice 
comments that the cast's coming off VERY soon.  If he was almost healed, why 
would he be "between casts"?  Generally new casts are only given to facilitate 
a different stage of healing or mobility -- not at the very end of the healing 
process.

So, yeah.  I vote tacky replica shield Christmas gift.

Eeeesh.  These props.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 25, 2002 at 22:27:13:
In Reply to: Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 18, 2002 at 20:40:40:

Addressing my previous mistake and various comments from Jeph and Antonio, 
heres a new rough chronology to explain the bigger context of the placement 
of AMBC..

A3 10
Occurs on the anniversary of the Avengers founding (September).

A3 11
Same day as A3 10.  Wonder Man brought back to life.

IM3 10-13
Iron Man finds out his armor is killing him.

A3 12
Vision fully recuperates and has a functioning corporeal body for the first 
time since A3 3.  Hawkeye officially quits the Avengers, but leaves on 
friendly terms.  Tony Stark is out of commission as Iron Man.

A3 13-14
Iron Man still out of commission.  The Beast sees Wonder Man for the first 
time since Simons resurrection in A3 11.

IM3 14
Iron Man risks donning is dangerous armor to assist the Fantastic Four in a 
crossover with FF 13-15.  FF3 13 is noted as occurring in autumn, although 
it follows right on the heels of the Valentines Day story of ASM2 4.  In this 
arrangement, the Valentines Day reference doesnt work.

IM3 15
Iron Man tests his new, non-lethal armor.

A3 15
Iron Man returns to active duty in the Avengers in his retooled armor.

A 99
Here we have the Vision testing his new body (so not long after A3 12), Wonder 
Man alive, Iron Man in armor, Justice without cast in old costume, and Cap 
with energy shield.

AMBC
Vision is here in his corporeal body.  Beast and Wonder Man are here 
together.  Iron Man is here in armor.  Hank Pym is Giant-Man.  Hawkeye is 
visiting, as are Quicksilver, Black Knight, and Black Panther.  Warbird is 
not here (nor should she be, as she has not returned to the Avengers since 
being drummed out in A3 7).  Justice is not in a cast.  He is wearing a new 
costume (the theory is that this costume is given to him by the Wasp for 
Christmas, Justice trashes it in a unpublished mission shortly after this, 
and returns to his old costume before Wizards Avengers Special).  Cap is 
shown with what appears to be his real shield, not the energy-shield he uses 
until CA3 22 (the theory is that this is a replica given as a Christmas gift 
in honor of the missing genuine article).  By the way, since were hinging a 
couple of important theories on it being Christmas here, its hard to dismiss 
the Christmas reference as topical.  Im going to have to stick this issue on 
a calendar at Christmas time.

WIZARDS AVENGERS SPECIAL
My bad.  This isnt A3 0, its Jarvis tour of Avengers Mansion, published on 
pages 42-47 of Wizards Avengers Special, an entire book devoted to the 
Assemblers, published in 1999.  I see these pages as a canon story.  As 
Jarvis shows a security-cleared guest (unseen, but we see things from his/her 
viewpoint) through the mansion, we see Cap in the training room hurling what 
looks like his real shield through a robot (maybe this is his Christmas 
replica, which hes trying out for the heck of it), we see a corporeal Vision 
looking in on Wanda and Simon, we see Thor eating a sandwich, we see the Wasp 
looking at a new dress shes bought, we see Justice (old costume, no cast) and 
Firestar walking through the hall of mementos, and we see a suited-up Iron Man 
in a laboratory.

A3 16
Warbird returns.  Justice (back) in the old costume.  It is Mardi Gras.  If 
the Christmas date of AMBC and the Mardi Gras date (late February/early March) 
can be considered canon, it is no surprise that Black Knight is asked what 
hes been up to  its been two months or more since he was last seen.	And if 
we rely on this date placement, this renders the Valentines Day in CA3 28 
topical, since Cap has his real shield back at that point (see below).

A3 17
Same day as A3 16.  Justice is injured and has to wear a cast until A3 24.

A3 18
Same day as A3 17.

A3 0FB
Wonder Man and Scarlet Witch here.

A3 20FB #2
Giant-Man and Wasp here, before A3 0.

A3 0
One day, within a few days before A3 20.

A3 18 (end)
Perhaps day after Av 0; some time after A3 18 beg.  Giant-Man alone here.

A3 19  FB
Same day as A3 18 end.  Wasp here alone.

A3 19
Same day as A3 19-FB.

A3 20FB #1
Same day as AvIII 19.  Ultron, Black Brigade and Ember here.

A3 20
Must be day after A3 200--FB #1, the day after A3 18 end; within a few days 
after A3 0;

A3 21
Same night as A3 21 and into early the next morning;

A3 22
Same day as A3 21 end.  Last appearance of Caps energy shield in Avengers.

CA3 20/1
CA3 21/1
CA3 22
Cap gets his real shield back at the end of this story.

A3 23
Cap is seen with his real shield for the first time since CA3 22, and from 
the narrative on page 1, its soon after Caps reunion with his shield.

A3 24
To celebrate Justices recuperation, the Wasp arranges for him to receive a 
brand-spanking costume (the theory is that its a revised version of the AMBC 
costume).  Justice shows it off like its the first time anyones seen it 
(and it is, considering the differences between this costume and its earlier 
version).

How does this look, group?  Have we nailed AMBC's placement?  And how about 
that Wizard special?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
Posted by Antonio Gavio on October 26, 2002 at 03:12:28:
In Reply to: Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 25, 2002 at 22:27:13:

Couldn't be handled better. Those Wizard pages look canon to me, they sure 
help with Cap's explanation of the replica shield he has in AMBC. And the 
Mardi Gras date explains the Black Knight being asked what hes been up to.

One more thing I just noticed to close this case; the Christmas party in AMBC 
happens on December 12th (it's on page two). So we have AMBC happening on 
December 12th and 13th and on Christmas day.

On other note, Paul, is there any way I can get an update on the calendar 
with all the changes you must have made by now? I think I can start helping 
you with Tangled Web but I want to be on the same page with what you now have. 
Thanks in advance.

			*	*	*

Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 26, 2002 at 13:00:32:
In Reply to: Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
posted by Antonio Gavio on October 26, 2002 at 03:12:28:

> Couldn't be handled better. Those Wizard pages look canon to me, they sure 
help with Cap's explanation of the replica shield he has in AMBC. And the 
Mardi Gras date explains the Black Knight being asked what hes been up to.

A case in which calendar placement can help things make sense.  We'll see how 
these placements fare when I get back to looking at the bigger MU picture.

I just noticed something else...a canon story on pages 20-25 of that Wizard 
special.  Cap is entering notes about the current team into the Avengers' 
database.  His comments about recent plotlines make me believe this story, 
"Dream Team," occurs shortly after A3 18.  So I'd insert the following right 
after A3 18...

WIZARDS AVENGERS SPECIAL (pages 20-25)
Cap enters notes about the current Avengers team into the Avengers database.  
Reference is made to Wandas being deputy chairman, and to Justices encounter 
with the Black Knights sword (A3 16).  A file photo (presumably current) 
shows Cap with his energy shield.

> One more thing I just noticed to close this case; the Christmas party in 
AMBC happens on December 12th (it's on page two). So we have AMBC happening 
on December 12th and 13th and on Christmas day.

Antonio, what are the page/panel ranges for the segment that occurs on Dec. 
12-13 and for the segment on Dec. 25?  Can you provide me with a list of 
characters who appear in each segment?  Thanks.

> On other note, Paul, is there any way I can get an update on the calendar 
with all the changes you must have made by now? I think I can start helping 
you with Tangled Web but I want to be on the same page with what you now 
have. Thanks in advance.

No problem.  I'll e-mail you most up-to-date version soon.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
Posted by Jeph! on October 26, 2002 at 14:46:20:
In Reply to: Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 26, 2002 at 13:00:32:

> > Those Wizard pages look canon to me, they sure help with Cap's explanation 
of the replica shield he has in AMBC.

Isn't it great when two mistakes can be put next to each other to make a 
"pattern"?  Things like that are why I love the MCP so much.

> > And the Mardi Gras date explains the Black Knight being asked what hes 
been up to.

Okay -- let me hop back on the "calendar" bandwagon for a second.

I'm wondering if, since having two months elapse between books seems out of 
the ordinary, if the "Mardi Gras" reference in A3 #16-18 is the topical one, 
and the Valentine's Day reference in Cap #28, later on down the road, would 
turn out to be "real".

Okay -- back off the calendar bandwagon, back to annoying self.

> I just noticed something else...a canon story on pages 20-25 of that Wizard 
special.

This whole Wizard thing has me wondering now!  I've paged through their X-Men 
specials and I don't think I've ever seen a canon story ... and believe me, 
I'd love to find one.  Who were the creative teams on these two stories?  
Were they hack jobs by the Wizard staff, or real stories commissioned from 
Marvel?  Are there any more canon stories hiding in other Wizard specials?

> > One more thing I just noticed to close this case; the Christmas party in 
AMBC happens on December 12th (it's on page two). So we have AMBC happening 
on December 12th and 13th and on Christmas day.

> Antonio, what are the page/panel ranges for the segment that occurs on Dec. 
12-13 and for the segment on Dec. 25?  Can you provide me with a list of 
characters who appear in each segment?  Thanks.

Not to steal Antonio's thunder, but I have the book in front of me right now, 
and I can hook you up:

p. 1, p.2-3 (two-page spread, panels 1-7) -- the Avengers decorate for 
Christmas on Dec. 12th (date on page-a-day calendar in back).  Hawkeye shows 
up saying "happy Christmas party".  Cap is wearing what we suppose must be a 
replica shield, given to him that day at the party, and Justice is wearing a 
prototype costume given to him by the Wasp.  (He later either trashes it in 
battle or decides he dislikes the color scheme, and Jan makes him a variation 
in A3 #24.  By the way, in the scene in A3 #24 where Justice shows off the 
outfit, Pietro says "It's just ducky -- I love the COLORS".  He could be 
referring to the CHANGE in colors, since he was at the party too, and likely 
watched Justice show off the first one.  Heh.  "Evidence".)

Also, does Quicksilver's appearance here cause any problems?  A scene in A3 
#24 indicates that Pietro and Wanda haven't seen each other in a long time, 
and haven't talked about his appointment in the Genoshan cabinet.  But, in 
the party scene here, Quicksilver is watching the party from the stairs -- and 
it sort of looks like he's watching Wanda, as well ... perhaps he simply 
avoided her the whole party.

Appearing:
Thor
the Vision (in corporeal form)
Iron Man (in post-HR "sentient"-model armor)
the Beast
Spider-Man
the Wasp
Justice
Firestar
Hawkeye
Captain America
Speedball
Rage
Nova
the Black Panther
the Scarlet Witch
Wonder Man
the Black Knight
Night Thrasher
Quicksilver
the Black Widow
Jarvis

Christmnas cards are being hung, sent by Nelson & Murdock, the Fantastic 
Four, and Stan Lee -- possible BTS appearances for these folks?

P.3 panel 8, p. 4-8 - presumably the same time as the party, as the Wasp 
enters and scolds Giant-Man to "be sociable" (indeed, we don't see him at 
the party).  Cap enters, still wearing his "replica" shield, probably 
reinforcing the date.  (How long would you wear around a non-functioning 
replica weapon?)

Appearing:
Hank Pym (as Giant-Man)
the Wasp
Captain America

By the way, listen to the fuss Hank kicks up about switching identities 
here!  "I can't be Ant-Man -- Scott Lang is Ant-Man--".  This doesn't sound 
like a guy who'd switch identities because one costume was "in the wash".  ;)  
(Sorry, cheap shot at a closed issue, but I just felt like pointing out Hank's 
costume-related stubbornness here.)

P. 9 - midnight.  Apparently that same night (the 12th), as Hank re-reads 
Larry Magruder's note.

Appearing:
Hank Pym
the Wasp

P. 10-26 - apparently the very next day, as Hank and Jan visit Larry and 
hatch the Christmas plot.

Appearing:
Hank Pym (Giant-Man / Ant-Man)
the Wasp
Katherine Magruder (mother)
Larry Magruder
Arthur Magruder (father)

Larry shows them a video of last Christmas.  I'd consider the whole thing 
akin to a FB sequence.

Appearing (video/FB):
great-aunt Sadie
Katherine Magruder
Elmer Magruder (uncle)
Athur Magruder
Harley Magruder (uncle, Arthur's brother)
Amy (presumably Magruder, aunt)
cousin Martha
twin cousins Ned and Ted
Larry Magruder

When last names aren't included, it's because I don't have enough family 
information to derive them.  Except for uncle Elmer, everyone could be 
related to Arthur's SISTER, and have a different last name.

p. 27-48 - Christmas Day at the Magruders'.

Appearing:
Hank Pym (Ant-Man)
the Wasp
Athur Magruder
Katherine Magruder
Larry Magruder (named as "Lawrence" by his aunt)
great-aunt Sadie
Elmer Magruder
Harley Magruder
Amy (Magruder?)
cousin Martha
twin cousins Ned and Ted
uncle Leo
aunt Susan

Once again I overdid it (and when I hit "submit", I'm fairly sure I'll be 
seeing Antonio's reply up before mine), but there you have it.

I was thinking that the Wizard Avengers Special (story #2, pp. 42-47) might 
take place in the break between pages 26-27?  Normally I wouldn't suggest it, 
but if Cap is trying out using his REPLICA shield in mock combat, he probably 
hasn't had it for too long.  That makes me think that this story takes place 
shortly after the Christmas party on the 12th, and therefore likely before 
Christmas itself.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
Posted by Antonio Gavio on October 26, 2002 at 16:24:23:
In Reply to: Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
posted by Jeph! on October 26, 2002 at 14:46:20:

> > I just noticed something else...a canon story on pages 20-25 of that 
Wizard special.

> This whole Wizard thing has me wondering now!  I've paged through their 
X-Men specials and I don't think I've ever seen a canon story ... and believe 
me, I'd love to find one.  Who were the creative teams on these two stories?  
Were they hack jobs by the Wizard staff, or real stories commissioned from 
Marvel?  Are there any more canon stories hiding in other Wizard specials?

If they are hack jobs or commissioned from Marvel it's hard to say but 
obviously they must have had Marvel's approval. 

The first one: "The Dream Team" (pages 20-25) is more an article by Wizard 
contributor Scott Brick, with already published illustrations, written from 
Cap's point of view of his current teammates.

The second one: "Inside Avengers Mansion" (pages 42-47) looks more like 
pages of a comic book, with new illustrations by Phil Jimenez and written 
by Douglas Goldstein who also edits the whole WIZARD's Avengers Special 
Edition.

...

> Once again I overdid it (and when I hit "submit", I'm fairly sure I'll be 
seeing Antonio's reply up before mine), but there you have it.

Not a chance. I was about to grab a pen to write down all the appearances 
when a realized your reply was already up.

> I was thinking that the Wizard Avengers Special (story #2, pp. 42-47) might 
take place in the break between pages 26-27?  Normally I wouldn't suggest it, 
but if Cap is trying out using his REPLICA shield in mock combat, he probably 
hasn't had it for too long.  That makes me think that this story takes place 
shortly after the Christmas party on the 12th, and therefore likely before 
Christmas itself.

Actually I was going to suggest the same. No reason for Cap to keep this 
replica shield for too long.

			*	*	*

Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 26, 2002 at 20:22:55:
In Reply to: Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 18, 2002 at 20:40:40:

Hot off the press, a new chronology to explain the bigger context of the 
placement of AMBC, taking new contributions and some quick checking into 
account...

A3 10
Occurs on the anniversary of the Avengers founding (September).

A3 11
Same day as A3 10.  Wonder Man brought back to life.

IM3 10-13
Iron Man finds out his armor is killing him.

A3 12
Vision fully recuperates and has a functioning corporeal body for the first 
time since A3 3.  Hawkeye officially quits the Avengers, but leaves on 
friendly terms.  Tony Stark is out of commission as Iron Man.

A3 13
Iron Man still out of commission.  Scarlet Witch is appointed deputy chairman.  
The New Warriors guest-star.

A3 14
Iron Man still out of commission.  The Beast sees Wonder Man for the first 
time since Simons resurrection in A3 11.

IM3 14
Iron Man risks donning is dangerous armor to assist the Fantastic Four in a 
crossover with FF 13-15, which features the magnetic pulse generated in the 
mega-mutant crossover, Magneto War.  FF3 13 is noted as occurring in 
autumn, although it follows right on the heels of the Valentines Day story 
of ASM2 4.  In this arrangement, the Valentines Day reference doesnt work.

IM3 15
Iron Man tests his new, non-lethal armor.  Hank Pym here.

C2 67FB
C2 66 (end)
C2 67
C2 68
Iron Man, Captain America, Wonder Man, Vision, and Thor appear during this 
story, right after the Magneto War.

A3 15
Iron Man returns to active duty in the Avengers in his retooled armor.

A 99
Here we have the Vision testing his new body (so not long after A3 12), Wonder 
Man alive, Iron Man in armor, Justice without cast in old costume, and Cap 
with energy shield.

AMBC (pages 1-26)
December 12" and 13.  The Avengers have a Christmas party.  Vision is here 
in his corporeal body.  Beast and Wonder Man are here together.  Iron Man is 
here in armor.  Hank Pym is Giant-Man.  Hawkeye is visiting, as are Black 
Knight, and Black Panther.  Quicksilver could be here during the period of 
days between the Magneto War and his acceptance of a position on the 
Genoshan cabinet in MREX 3; his sitting on the stairs somewhat apart may 
betray some heavy thinking post-Magneto War, but Wanda apparently doesnt 
have an issue with him, which she does after MREX 3.  The New Warriors are 
here, most likely after their encounter with the Avengers in A3 13.  Warbird 
is not here (nor should she be, as she has not returned to the Avengers since 
being drummed out in A3 7).  Justice is not in a cast.  He is wearing a new 
costume (the theory is that this costume is given to him by the Wasp for 
Christmas, Justice trashes it very shortly after this, and returns to his 
old costume before pages 42-47 of the Wizard Special).  Cap is shown with 
what appears to be his real shield, not the energy-shield he uses until CA3 
22 (the theory is that this is a replica given as a Christmas gift in honor 
of the missing genuine article).  By the way, since were hinging a couple 
of important theories on it being Christmas here, its hard to dismiss the 
Christmas reference as topical.  Im going to have to stick this issue on a 
calendar at Christmas time.

WIZARDS AVENGERS SPECIAL (pages 42-47)
As Jarvis shows a security-cleared guest (unseen, but we see things from 
his/her viewpoint) through the mansion, we see Cap in the training room 
hurling what looks like his real shield through a robot (theory: this is his 
Christmas replica, which hes trying out for the heck of it very shortly after 
the first 26 pages of AMBC), we see a corporeal Vision looking in on Wanda and 
Simon, we see Thor eating a sandwich, we see the Wasp looking at a new dress 
shes bought, we see Justice (back in old costume, no cast) and Firestar 
walking through the hall of mementos, and we see a suited-up Iron Man in a 
laboratory.

MREX 1
MREX 2
MREX 3
Quicksilver accepts a position on the Genoshan cabinet in a series that 
occurs days after the Magneto War.  Scarlet Witch, Iron Man, and Justice 
(in old costume and pre-cast) are seen in MREX 3.  (The days that separate 
the Magneto War and MREX can be interpreted loosely, but they do suggest that 
A3 15, A 99, AMBC pg. 1-26, and WAS pg. 42-47 occur in quick succession in 
that short time.)

AMBC (pages 27-48)
Hank and Jan spend Christmas with the Magruders.

A3 16
Warbird returns.  Justice in the old costume.  It is Mardi Gras.  If the 
Christmas date of AMBC and the Mardi Gras date (late February/early March) 
can be considered canon, it is no surprise that Black Knight is asked what 
hes been up to  its been two months or more since he was last seen.	The 
Knight talks about his adventures with Heroes for Hire, but these must have 
occurred before AMBC, given the tight crossover of later HFH and QS issues 
and the tie-in with A3 7; perhaps he just hadnt mentioned this at the 
Christmas party.  If we rely on this date placement, this renders the 
Valentines Day in CA3 28 topical, since Cap has his real shield back at that 
point (see below).

A3 17
Same day as A3 16.  Justice is injured and has to wear a cast until A3 24.

A3 18
Same day as A3 17.

WIZARDS AVENGERS SPECIAL (pages 20-25)
Cap enters notes about the current Avengers team into the Avengers database.  
Reference is made to Wandas being deputy chairman (A3 13) and to Justices 
encounter with the Black Knights sword (A3 16).  A file photo (presumably 
current) shows Cap with his energy shield.

A3 0FB
Wonder Man and Scarlet Witch here.

A3 20FB #2
Giant-Man and Wasp here, before A3 0.

A3 0
One day, within a few days before A3 20.

A3 18 (end)
Perhaps day after Av 0; some time after A3 18 beg.  Giant-Man alone here.

A3 19  FB
Same day as A3 18 end.  Wasp here alone.

A3 19
Same day as A3 19-FB.

A3 20FB #1
Same day as AvIII 19.  Ultron, Black Brigade and Ember here.

A3 20
Must be day after A3 200--FB #1, the day after A3 18 end; within a few days 
after A3 0;

A3 21
Same night as A3 21 and into early the next morning;

A3 22
Same day as A3 21 end.  Last appearance of Caps energy shield in Avengers.

CA3 20/1
CA3 21/1
CA3 22
Cap gets his real shield back at the end of this story.

A3 23
Cap is seen with his real shield for the first time since CA3 22, and from 
the narrative on page 1, its soon after Caps reunion with his shield.

A3 24
To celebrate Justices recuperation, the Wasp arranges for him to receive a 
brand-spanking costume (the theory is that its a revised version of the 
AMBC costume).  Justice shows it off like its the first time anyones seen 
it (and it is, considering the differences between this costume and its 
earlier version).  Quicksilver talks to his sister about his status as a 
Genoshan cabinet member; this is apparently the first time theyve spoken 
since MREX 3.

How does this look?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
Posted by Antonio Gavio on October 26, 2002 at 23:36:52:
In Reply to: Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 26, 2002 at 20:22:55:

Looking good Paul, but, shouldn't those Cable issues go after Iron Man returns 
to active duty in the Avengers with his retooled armor in issue 15?

			*	*	*

Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 27, 2002 at 21:38:42:
In Reply to: Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
posted by Antonio Gavio on October 26, 2002 at 23:36:52:

Good catch, Antonio.  Actually Iron Man returns to active duty in the 
flashback in A3 15, which occurs "a few days" before A3 15.  I would place 
the Cable appearances within those few days, given the tight continuity 
spinning out of the Magneto War.  See the correction above.  Allowing a few 
days between A3 15-FB and A3 15 means that it is more than just a few "days" 
between the Magneto War and MREX.

--Paul

			*	*	*

About Cap's Sheild
Posted by Kevin  on October 28, 2002 at 08:19:59:
In Reply to: Re: Ant-Mans Big Christmas #1
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 27, 2002 at 21:38:42:

About Cap's shield, I just want to point out that he's used a poor replica 
before: In CAP Vol. 3, Issue 3, right after he loses his circular shield, he 
gets a copy of the triangular shield he used during WW2 from a musuem. He 
used it till issue 8, where it was trashed by a Kree Soldier, (showing that 
the quality of that shield was lacking).  

So the idea of using a replica shield during the Antman's Big Christmas 
special does make sense, since he's tolerated replica shields before.

			*	*	*

Revenge of the Green Goblin
Posted by Antonio Gavio on October 17, 2002 at 23:22:37:
In Reply to: Paul's new calendar...
posted by Administrator on October 05, 2002 at 23:57:37:

Here is a couple of things where you might be wrongly going with Russ' 
placement. A long while ago I made a comment on it, I guess he never got 
around to make the changes.

It is mistaken to place ASM2 22-24 before SM:RGG 2-3. In SM:RGG 3 Peter 
dresses as Green Goblin (induced by subliminals planted on a compact disk) 
for the first time and in ASM2 23-24 that's Peter disguised as the Green 
Goblin doing it again.

 It's also wrong placing PPSM2 23-24 atfer ASM2 22-24 to make it fit within 
the Maximum Security crossover chronology. A closer look at those two issues 
can tell us they are not part of that crossover even though it is said they 
are on the cover (at least on issue 24 anyway). The aliens on those issues 
are not criminal aliens sent prisoner to Earth like the rest of aliens in 
Maximum Security, they are even in their own space ship, and the 'recent 
spate of vandalism' in the city is the one originated by the hybrid created 
by Peter's DNA.

So, regardless of other Spidey appearances in other titles in between, his 
chronology should follow this order:
 PPSM2 22
 SM:RGG 1 (p16-22) Osborn disguised as postman delivers toothpaste to Peter's 
mail
 PPSM2 23 Peter and Randy(without goatie) both have nightmares induced by 
toothpaste
 PPSM2 24
 SM:RGG 2 Peter receives CD with subliminals
 SM:RGG 3 Spidey dresses as Green Goblin for the first time. Peter and Randy
(still without goatie) have more nightmares 
 ASM2 22 Randy with goatie from now on
 ASM2 23 Peter seen as Goblin
 ASM2 24 (p1 - p6pan3) 
 MAXIMUM SECURITY 1 Spider-Man fights alien
 ASM2 24 (p6pan4 - p24) Peter seen as Goblin
 MAXIMUM SECURITY 3
 ASM2 25
 PPSM2 25

			*	*	*

Re: Revenge of the Green Goblin
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 22, 2002 at 21:29:15:
In Reply to: Revenge of the Green Goblin
posted by Antonio Gavio on October 17, 2002 at 23:22:37:

Thanks for this input, Antonio.  Unless anyone has objections to this, I can 
rearrange the order of these issues on the calendar without much problem at 
all.

Paul

			*	*	*

Spider-Man: Lifeline 
Posted by Antonio Gavio on October 20, 2002 at 17:39:02:
In Reply to: Paul's new calendar...
posted by Administrator on October 05, 2002 at 23:57:37:

>NOVEMBER

>...

>Spider-Man: Lifeline #1
>Spider-Man: Lifeline #2
>Spider-Man: Lifeline #3
	One night and the next day.  Full moon.

>Amazing Spider-Man v2 #28
	One day.  It is after PPSM2 28 and SM:L 3 and "almost six months" 
after ASM2 13.

>Amazing Spider-Man v2 #29
	The same night as ASM2 28.  Full moon, perhaps the same one as in 
SM:L 2.  If so, this requires a slight reshuffling of Russ' order of Spidey 
appearances, which I don't believe would cause any problems.

...

Just an observation here. Russ places SM:L 1-3 right after Spider-Man: 
Marrow #1 wich also features a full moon that could also be the same one as 
in SM:L 2. If that's the case Russ would have to add a Spidey appearance for 
the last three pages of Spider-Man: Marrow #1 that happen a week after the 
rest of the story where the full moon is shown. Is there any reason other 
than the full moon for you to place SM:L 1-3 closer to ASM2 28 and not where 
Russ has them?

			*	*	*

Re: Spider-Man: Lifeline 
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 22, 2002 at 19:52:53:
In Reply to: Spider-Man: Lifeline 
posted by Antonio Gavio on October 20, 2002 at 17:39:02:

Actually, not all the full moons shown here are necessarily canon.  Take a 
look at the placement of various Spidey full moons around this part of the 
calendar and you'll notice that they're not a month apart, as they should be.  
I adjusted SM:LL to be a canon full moon by bringing it close to ASM2 29.  
(No other reason.  I'm assuming that SM:LL is flexible in its placement 
relative to main Spidey titles.) I offer a theory that the full moon in SM:M 
is topical.

Paul

			*	*	*

The whole Morlun/Aunt May Revelation storyline
Posted by Antonio Gavio on October 21, 2002 at 02:19:13:
In Reply to: Paul's new calendar...
posted by Administrator on October 05, 2002 at 23:57:37:

>Amazing Spider-Man v2 #30
>Amazing Spider-Man v2 #31

ASM2 30-31 occur over the course of two days.  During the second day (ASM2 
31), Peter Parker gets a job substitute teaching at his old high school.  It's 
a school day there.  This story obviously occurs after Peter and M.J. split 
up (ASM '01) and before PPSM2 30.  According to Russ, these issues occur after 
TW 3.  Full moon.

>...

>Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #30
>Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #31
>Peter Parker, Spider-Man v2 #32

PPSM2 30-32 occur during the course of a day, after ASM2 31.

Hey Paul, I have a question about this. What makes you be sure that PPSM2 
30-32 occur after ASM2 31? I've checked for clues but don't seem to find 
anything definitive.

They could very well go before, to have the whole Morlun storyline happening 
right after ASM2 31 and not a month later. 

That way the full moon seen in ASM2 30 would be still the same as the one in 
ASM2 35, also, it wouldn't take Ezequiel a whole month to contact Peter again 
and Morlun wouldn't have to wait that long to atack Spider-Man.

It would mean though that Peter starts to work 'on the fly' the next day 
after the last science teacher quits on ASM2 31.

It would also help (having all this by early December) with the placement of 
PPSM2 34, the funfair seen in New York there could be some pre-Christmas 
celebration.

By the way, the Morlun storyline (ASM2 32-35) happens over the course of 
four days (not just two), the first one of which (a night) could very well 
be the same as ASM2 31. The Aunt May Revelation storyline (ASM2 37-38) starts 
the same evening as the end of ASM2 35 and follows the next day. 

			*	*	*

Re: The whole Morlun/Aunt May Revelation storyline
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 23, 2002 at 21:10:42:
In Reply to: The whole Morlun/Aunt May Revelation storyline
posted by Antonio Gavio on October 21, 2002 at 02:19:13:

Good points, Antonio!  After re-reading the issues mentioned, I'd say that 
PPSM2 30-32 should come before ASM2 30, and that it does make sense to place 
ASM2 30-38 in fairly quick succession.  Too much of a deal is made of Peter's 
new apartment in PPSM2 30 to believe that it's anything but the first 
appearance of this locale, and there is no mention of the teaching gig in 
PPSM2 30-32.  We see the new apartment again in ASM2 30, and the teaching 
gig comes the next day, in ASM2 31.  Peter does refer to ASM2 30 as having 
occurred "last night" in ASM2 31, leaving no time for PPSM2 30-32 to occur 
between ASM2 30 and 31, as currently listed in the MCP.

So, we have...
ASM '01 -- Peter and M.J. split up
TW 1-3 -- Peter still living with Aunt May, but dating (must be after the 
split-up, but how shortly after would he date?)
PPSM2 30-32 -- Peter in the new apartment
ASM2 30-38 -- Peter gets teaching job, meets Ezekiel, fights Morlun, and has 
his secret discovered by Aunt May

That sequence makes sense from the standpoint of the character's chronology.

I didn't point out that PPSM2 30 features hot, humid weather (ack!).  In the 
general scheme of things, full moons aren't all that critical for placement 
unless other factors don't make a difference.  Given the hot weather of PPSM2 
30 and the fun fair in PPSM2 34, I'm debating about compressing the time 
frame taken by Spidey's chronology after MAXSEC 3, without, of course, 
wreaking havok with his essential sequence of appearances, but references 
such as ASM2 27 being "weeks" after ASM2 25 may stand in the way.

Thanks, Antonio.

--Paul

			*	*	*

NICK FURY...FUSION...FUTURIST
Posted by Arthur Stein on October 06, 2002 at 16:09:58:

New entries marked **

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH
COTL 35
**COTL 36-FB
M/TIO 26

plus...I think the M/SH3 11/3  entry should read M/SH3 12/3 

FUSION/MARKLEY
This entry should be FUSION II

FUSION/HUBERT and PINKY FUSSER
**ASM 208
**Q 14
**Q 16
**Q 20

FUTURIST
FF 215
FF 216
**Q 14
**Q 15

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if 
I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece 
of information engineering!

			*	*	*

Re: NICK FURY...FUSION...FUTURIST
Posted by Peter Fabricius on October 07, 2002 at 11:38:44:
In Reply to: NICK FURY...FUSION...FUTURIST
posted by Arthur Stein on October 06, 2002 at 16:09:58:

Fury is definetely in M/SH3 12/3 and not in M/SH3 11/3. I just checked.

Peter

			*	*	*

I found... George
Posted by SKleefeld on October 10, 2002 at 08:21:06:

I scanned back through some posts and saw Russ's note about George Olshevsky 
becoming disillusioned with comics, so it occurred to me to actually find out 
what happened to him.

And... I found him. 

I was expecting some long, dragged out search with no one having heard from 
him in years and, even then, I'd only find somebody with a similar -- but not 
quite the same -- name. But, no, I found a guy named George Olshevksy who very 
clearly stated he wrote the Marvel Indexes.

He's apparently been living in San Diego and working on a couple of magazines 
called DinoPress and  Mesozoic Meanderings. DP he just writes articles about 
dinosaurs for, but MM is a catalog of... well, I think George tells it better:

> The third issue of Mesozoic Meanderings comprises six tables that together 
form a checklist of all the worlds dinosaur species (not just genera) known 
to me whose names have ever been published anywhere, sorted alphabetically by 
continent, from 1763 right through to the publication date, May 1, 2000. 
Valid species, invalid species, synonyms, renamings, and even some of the 
most egregious misspellings are all listed and completely annotated. Besides 
the tables and a new introduction, this issue also features descriptions of 
the three genera of tyrannosaurian dinosaurs I named in a Japanese article 
published in 1995.

Heh heh. Sound familiar?

He's also been working on "the worlds only website that tabulates all the 
convex uniform (i.e., Platonic and Archimedean) polychora (that is, four-
dimensional polytopes), and until Norman W. Johnsons book Uniform Polytopes 
is published by Cambridge University Press, it remains the only place in the 
world where you can find this information!" (This was as of five months ago.)

Needless to say, I fired off an email immediately! A great deal of praise, a 
summation of how his work led to the MCP and what the MCP is, and a handful 
of questions about the Indexes. I'll be sure to let everyone know if/when I 
hear back from him.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: I found... George
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 10, 2002 at 21:55:30:
In Reply to: I found... George
posted by SKleefeld on October 10, 2002 at 08:21:06:

Way to go, Sean!  I really would be interested to know what he thinks of his 
legacy here at the MCP.  Do keep us posted, or maybe he'll post here himself.  
It would be great to get his take on things chronological, if he ever thinks 
about such things in an MU context anymore.

--Paul

			*	*	*

GAEA...GALACTUS...GARM
Posted by Arthur Stein on October 10, 2002 at 15:55:55:

New entries marked **

GAEA
SS@ 2/5-FB
** DRSTR2 6
DRSTR2 7

GALACTUS/GALAN
1)
T 169
**T 184
T 306-FB

2)
SS3 19
SS3 20
SS: JUDGMENT DAY
**XCAL 14 

  I do not own SS:JUDGMENT DAY, so I cannot determine if XCAL 14 should be 
charted before or after it.  Galactus is sated in SS3 20, having consumed 
Naja-7. Nova states you wont need to eat again for a long time, so I 
placed it after Judgment day making it just a little further away. Hardly 
conclusive. 

 Although XCAL 14 takes place in an alternate dimension, it it my 
understanding that Galactus is unique to the multiverse, therefore this IS 
our Galactus. Also, in XCAL 14 Phoenix reproaches Galactus with  You gave 
your word never to harm the Earth! (obviously SHE believes it to be the 
same Galactus.) Galactus responds  A different Earth , Starchilde. A pledge 
made to a different Reed Richards., which seems to indicate that he IS the 
Galactus that made the pledge and that he knows that this is a different 
reality. He later refers to the planet as THIS representation of Sols 
third planet, again indicating his awareness of alternate earths.

   Later on Galactus warns the Impossible Man   you are almost as great a 
threat as the Phoenix-Avatar...or I will deal with you as I shall soon with 
her, foreshadowing the events in XCAL 24-25 when Galactus DOES go after 
Phoenix.

XCAL 24
XCAL 25
PP 56
**PP 58
AF 97-BTS

GARM
**NM 82
T 438/2

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if 
I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or 
comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of 
information engineering!

			*	*	*

Re: GAEA...GALACTUS...GARM
Posted by Jeph! on October 10, 2002 at 23:14:48:
In Reply to: GAEA...GALACTUS...GARM
posted by Arthur Stein on October 10, 2002 at 15:55:55:

>  Although XCAL 14 takes place in an alternate dimension, it it my 
understanding that Galactus is unique to the multiverse, therefore this IS 
our Galactus

While all the evidence you pointed out DOES strongly show that this is "our" 
Galactus, recent issues of the Fantastic Four (#46-49 and the 2001 Annual) 
have shown that Galactus is NOT, in fact, unique in the multiverse.

I don't know if that contradicts previous storylines, but the corpses of 
several Galactii seem to be fairly good supporting evidence that it's true.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Unique in the Multiverse?
Posted by Don Campbell on October 11, 2002 at 10:25:19:
In Reply to: Re: GAEA...GALACTUS...GARM
posted by Jeph! on October 10, 2002 at 23:14:48:

As far as I know, the only Marvel character that has so far been DEFINITIVELY 
identified as being "unique in the multiverse" is the all-powerful LIVING 
TRIBUNAL (and, of course, its as-yet-unseen-and-unnamed superior). Even 
Eternity, the personification of the universe in which the "mainstream" 
Marvel-Earth exists, has been shown to be limited to this single dimension, 
with the various alternate-Earth dimensions each having their own distinct 
Eternity (although I believe that those FF issues Jeph listed may have 
contained a reference to an entity that was the sum of all the incarnations 
of Eternity from throughout the multiverse).

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: GAEA...GALACTUS...GARM
Posted by Arthur Stein on October 11, 2002 at 12:52:03:
In Reply to: GAEA...GALACTUS...GARM
posted by Arthur Stein on October 10, 2002 at 15:55:55:

Yeah, I had a feeling the uniqueness was questionable, that's why I included 
the speech quotes which I still feel support the supposition that this is 
the Galactus of the 'main' reality.

			*	*	*

GALACTUS
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 11, 2002 at 18:52:41:
In Reply to: Re: GAEA...GALACTUS...GARM
posted by Arthur Stein on October 11, 2002 at 12:52:03:

I seem to remember something about the Phoenix Force being unique in the 
multi-verse, so perhaps this particular Galactus is familiar with the Phoenix 
Force.  Or maybe Galactus likes to travel to other dimensions for reasons far 
beyond the comprehension of mere mortals.

			*	*	*

Re: GALACTUS
Posted by Paul O'Brien on October 12, 2002 at 14:35:39:
In Reply to: GALACTUS
posted by Andy Holcombe on October 11, 2002 at 18:52:41:

> I seem to remember something about the Phoenix Force being unique in the 
multi-verse, so perhaps this particular Galactus is familiar with the Phoenix 
Force. 

There was an attempt in EXCALIBUR to suggest that Rachel Summers, Phoenix II, 
was unique in the multiverse.  No real explanation for this was ever given, 
but she seemed to be missing from all of the counterpart Excaliburs in the 
Cross-Time Caper storyline.  Of course, the most obvious reason would be that 
Rachel, a time traveller, never went back in time in those worlds.

Since parallel Rachels were seen in various issues of What If?, I think any 
attempt to imply that she was unique in the multiverse can be safely 
disregarded.

			*	*	*

Re: GALACTUS
Posted by garbonzo on October 14, 2002 at 22:42:13:
In Reply to: Re: GALACTUS
posted by Paul O'Brien on October 12, 2002 at 14:35:39:

Didn't Mojo just claim that he was unique in the multiverse?  Something about 
"All roads lead to Mojoworld."  I don't have the issue in front of me (The 
most recent issue of Exiles).  But, since that whole series takes place 
outside of the standard Marvel Universe, who knows?

			*	*	*

Re: GALACTUS
Posted by Paul O'Brien on October 15, 2002 at 20:31:34:
In Reply to: Re: GALACTUS
posted by garbonzo on October 14, 2002 at 22:42:13:

> Didn't Mojo just claim that he was unique in the multiverse?

Yes, Mojo and Spiral turn up in Exiles #18, and Mojo claims unequivocally to 
be unique in the Multiverse (or rather, because his dimension is not strictly 
part of the Multiverse, he asserts that all heroes from various timelines 
have only ever had dealings with him, the one true Mojo).

This seems to be backed up by the fact that everyone on the Exiles team seems 
to know him aside from Blink, who's never met any Mojos.

			*	*	*

Mojo
Posted by Sean Curtin on October 21, 2002 at 21:37:15:
In Reply to: Re: GALACTUS
posted by garbonzo on October 14, 2002 at 22:42:13:

> Didn't Mojo just claim that he was unique in the multiverse?  Something 
about "All roads lead to Mojoworld."  I don't have the issue in front of 
me (The most recent issue of Exiles).  But, since that whole series takes 
place outside of the standard Marvel Universe, who knows?

If Mojo and the Mojoverse are unique, then how do we explain Longshot and 
Spiral?  We've seen alternate timeline counterparts of both, which indicates 
either a) Mojo was wrong (misinformed, lying and/or delusional) when he 
claimed to be unique in the multiverse; or b) the one and only Mojoverse 
created multiple Longshots and multiple Spirals, never let them become aware 
of one another, and dissemenated them to almost every timeline.  Better to 
assume that the eXiles visited the Mojoverse of Earth-616 and that Mojo is 
aware of and can interact with other timelines but is *not* unique, because 
option b is just a headache.

--
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Gaea appears in Fantastic Four Annual#22
Posted by John McDonagh on October 15, 2002 at 14:40:40:
In Reply to: GAEA...GALACTUS...GARM
posted by Arthur Stein on October 10, 2002 at 15:55:55:

Incidentally, Gaea also appears in a back-up story in Fantastic Four Annual 
#22. It forms a part of the Atlantis Attacks/Saga of the Serpent Crown. Most 
of this back-up is a retelling of previous stories, with the Watcher 
narrating-HOWEVER, at the end of the story, Gaea appears to the Watcher to 
inform him of how Earth's heroes have defeated Set in the first story of the 
annual.

Actually, those Saga of the Serpent Crown back-ups were helpful in filling 
out some minutaie. For example, the back-ups in Web of Spider-Man Annual #5 
and Avengers West Coast Annual #4 filled in who the other members of the 
Serpent Cartel were, and also featured appearances by Power Princess and 
Arcanna that took place BEFORE their first published appearances!

http://marvunapp.com/Appendix/cartel.htm

serpent crown saga
Posted by Arthur Stein on October 15, 2002 at 19:29:50:
In Reply to: Gaea appears in Fantastic Four Annual#22
posted by John McDonagh on October 15, 2002 at 14:40:40:

I have been skipping ALL the Serpent Crown entries in my comparisons because 
I am unprepared to do the research to determine if a sequence is a real 
Flashback or just a re-telling of something already known. I just haven't 
the time.

But your added input is quite welcome and most appreciated.  

			*	*	*

TERROR INC. 1-13
Posted by The Nightmare on October 10, 2002 at 23:23:11:
I have all thirteen issues of Terror Inc. and (I pretty sure of) all of 
Terror's other MU apperances. I have gone through all the Terror issues 
and wrote down the characters in the books. For starters, I'll just give 
info on three of them.

 Primo, Alexis:
Ter 1
Ter 2
Ter 3
Ter 4
Ter 5
Ter 6

NOTE: Primo DID NOT appear in Terror Inc. #7 (it's listed in the MCP).

Ter 8
Ter 9
Ter 10
Ter 11
Ter 12
Ter 13

She might have also appered in some issues of Cage and Silver Sable. (I'll 
look through those issues). later.)

 Hellfire/ Mikal Drangonmegas:
Ter 5 FB
Ter 1
Ter 2
Ter 3
Ter 4
Ter 5
Ter 10
Ter 11
Ter 13

And there is a character not listed yet:

 Boneyard:
Ter 9
Ter 12

Like Primo, Boneyard might have appeared in Cage and Silver Sable.

I noticed a message on the board (dated over a year ago) that refered to 
Terror Inc. #13 and Ghost Rider's appearance. From what I've seen on the 
listing of Ghost Rider, there is a LOT of info missing. Other titles that 
were grouped together under the "Midnight Sons" also have a LOT of data 
missing. I do have all those issues (and then some...over 9000 Marvel issues). 
From time to time, (when I do have time) I will put a little more info on the 
board and maybe answer other comic related questions. I hope this helps and I 
hope to have more later. Until next time... -T.N.

			*	*	*

Re: TERROR INC. 1-13
Posted by Skid on May 04, 2003 at 21:36:39:
In Reply to: TERROR INC. 1-13
posted by The Nightmare on October 10, 2002 at 23:23:11:

How many issues of Terror Inc. was there...was 13 the entire run?  Thanks.

			*	*	*

Re: TERROR INC. 1-13
Posted by DCW3 on May 05, 2003 at 13:54:24:
In Reply to: Re: TERROR INC. 1-13
posted by Skid on May 04, 2003 at 21:36:39:

> How many issues of Terror Inc. was there...was 13 the entire run?

Yes.

			*	*	*

Incredible Hulk references...
Posted by Kevin  on October 11, 2002 at 11:08:17:

Here's a list of all current issues of Incredible Hulk (up to Bruce Jones' 
run starting in issue 33 I believe) with references...to help in determining 
where events fall on a calender or in chronology.

By the way, I tried to follow the way the issues are listed in MCP for the 
most part.  I think the order listed on the MCP is probably fine, but who 
knows? Maybe we'll spot something.

Some abbreviations you should take note of:

QS: Quick synopsis.

R: References, and other things you should take note of.

I'll be brief with my analysis of the first 7 issues written John Bryne.

Issues 1-3: 

QS: Hulk destroys a small town. Really, that's all there is to it.  God, 
Bryne can't write.  We learn someone is controlling the Hulk while Banner 
sleeps.

R: Scarlett Witch, Iron Man, and Wonderman, appear in Issue 3, watching news 
of the devestation of the town.  They decide they're going to have to do 
something soon about the Hulk.  Issues 1 through 3 happen over the course of 
2 to 3 days.

H #4: 

QS: An airplane is destroyed by what appears to be the Hulk. (but it's not).  
The person controlling the Hulk is Tyrannus, the crazy guy who lives below 
the Earth with the Subterranians. Tyrannus a few months back stumbled upon 
some old Deviant or Celestial Technology. He's using it control the Hulk while 
Banner sleeps. He also uses it to syphon of Hulk's gamma strength, which he 
put into another Subtereanean creature, who ends up looking almost just like 
the Hulk. It's that creature which destroys the plane.

R: Happens in 1 day I believe.

H #5:  

QS:Iron Man, Scarlet Witch, and Wonderman go around the town Hulk destroyed 
asking what might have caused Hulk's anger.

R: Happens in 1 day.

H #6-7: 

QS: Hulk escapes from Tyrannus' clutchs, ends up in the Everglades of Florida. 
Fights Man-thing. Battle pointless. Then he  runs into plant creatures that 
look like humans.  Iron Man, Scarlet Witch, Wonderman catch up with Banner, 
help him fight off the plant creatures, Banner escapes. The Avengers lose 
track of Banner and go home. At end of issue, Stupid Hulk is confronted by 
Wolverine, (except it's not Wolverine, it's the Skrull impersonator from the 
1999 Xmen storyline books).

R: Happens over 1 or 2 days.

H #8: 

QS:Hulk fights fake Wolverine. Skrull/Wolverine with bone claws defeats Hulk, 
who reverts to Banner. Banner convinces Wolverine to let him go.

R: Lots of green trees all around. Happens the same day as Issue 7, (it's a 
continuation).

Wolverine Issue #145: This is where Death, the Horseman for Apocolypse, comes 
after the Hulk to kill him. We learn that Wolverine is Death. Wolverine 
decided not to kill the Hulk.

H #9:  

QS: Thing comes for stupid Hulk. This issue takes places in Kentucky/Tennessee 
Appalachian mountains. Hulk makes friends with Archer Leopold, a stupid old 
coal miner redneck who likes Whiskey. Leave it to Marvel to embrace 
stereotypes as long as they're of white people from the mountains.

R: Lot's of green trees. Happens in 1 day.

H #10: 

QS: Tyrannus captures Hulk and Archer Leopold.  Leopold drinks from Tyrannus' 
fountain, and becomes young.  Archer, who is locked in the Subtereaneans jail, 
convinces the Subterreaneans to overthrow Tyrannus.  They do.  Sheild (led by 
Nick Fury) captures Banner and Archer Leopold, says they're charging Banner 
with murder for that Airplane that crashed in H#4.

R: Happens same day as issue 9, (they're a continuation).

H #11: 

QS:  Banner has been put on trial and found guilty of murder for the deaths 
from that Airplane crash in Issue 4. All this has happened since last time, 
so some time has passed.  At start of issue, Doc Samson and SHe-Hulk are 
looking down at Banner in a Shield cell, (at bottom of the Atlantic, 
apparently the only place Sheild felt safe to place him). Samson and Jen are 
discussing an appeal.

Archer Leopold, Nick Fury, and Doc Samson pay a visit to Hulk's cell, just in 
time to see the Subterrean's rescue Banner. Samson and Leopold go after him. 
Fury has secretly placed a minicamera on Archer Leopold's shirt.  Samson and 
Leopold make it to the underground chamber of the Subterreaneans. There, we 
learn that at the end of the last issue, the Subterreaneans spread the 
syphoned Hulk energy out among them.  The Banner that was in prison was the 
mind of the Subterreanean who destroyed the plane. He was willing to die for 
his crime. Meanwhile, Banner's mind had been living as one of the miniHulk's 
down below in the Subterreanean's caves. Banner decided to rescue the 
Subterreanean who was going to die for him, and transfers his mind back into 
his body.  Then he syphons all of the Hulk's energy back into his body and 
escapes as the Hulk.

R:  This issue was published in Dec. of '99 by the way.  After Banner places 
all Hulk energy back into his body, he breaks all the equipment in the lab 
with "a rage I've never seen before" Samson says.  The Hulk almost kills 
Archer, his friend, whom he suddenly doesn't reckognize. This Angery 
personality may be the first appearance of the "Raging Hulk".  See next issue 
for more details. Right before the transformation, Banner coughs and appears 
really weak. Samson asks if he's okay. Banner says "It'll pass...it always 
does".  I believe this is the first reference to Banner experiencing ALS 
syndromes.

Last page of the issue shows Banner in classic, "on the run" pose: Standing 
next to the road in the middle of a snow storm with a thumbs up extended to 
cars as they drive by.  Take note of the snow storm.  

That's it for the Bryne/Ordway run of the issues. Yeah, not much detail, but 
it was important to take note of some of that stuff.  I'll detail the Paul 
Jenkins run of the book sometime shortly.

			*	*	*

Re: Incredible Hulk references...(and note for Russ)
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 11, 2002 at 20:34:47:
In Reply to: Incredible Hulk references...
posted by Kevin  on October 11, 2002 at 11:08:17:

Much appreciated, Kevin!  I printed your post and added some notes about 
before and after appearances of guest stars from Russ' lists.* This will 
come in handy when I tackle the year prior to Maximum Security.  As you 
go through the teens of this Hulk run, we'll get into the timespan of the 
posted calendar.

*I noticed a discrepancy in the MCP listings.  In Nick Fury's chronology, 
FF3 27 occurs before H3 10, but in She-Hulk's chronology, FF3 27 occurs after 
H3 11.  There are no continuity gaps in FF3 27 that would make both orders 
correct, so which is right?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Incredible Hulk references...(and note for Russ)
Posted by Administrator on November 21, 2002 at 18:15:02:
In Reply to: Re: Incredible Hulk references...(and note for Russ)
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 11, 2002 at 20:34:47:

For the time being, She-Hulk is correct.

			*	*	*

Incredible Hulk references and reviews part 2!
Posted by Kevin  on October 13, 2002 at 16:39:25:

Heres the second half of my Hulk Reference list, so to speak. Its the entire 
Paul Jenkins run on the book , plus some extras. I stopped collecting the Hulk 
when Bruce Jones took over as writer.  Sorry I couldnt post this earlier, but 
Ive been busy lately.  I tried to follow the MCP chronology, but I submitted 
alterations on a few things.

Also sorry if some reviews are longer than others: some warranted more 
attention to detail, and some just peaked my interest because I really enjoyed 
these issues.

Take note: Between Hulk 11 and 12, the MCP has 2 or 3 appearances by Banner 
and  Hulk, one in PPSM: #14, another in Capt. Marvel 2 and 3, and another in 
T-Bolts #34 I believe.  This probably is the best place to place these entries.

Hulk #12 QS:  Banner apparently has been traveling around the USA for a little 
while, (how long is unknown). Hes come to realize hes sick, and diagnoses 
himself with ALS symptoms.  He goes to the home of his exgirlfriend from 
college a new character to us the reader, named Dr. Angela Lipscombe.  Shes 
a specialist in neuropyschology. Shes also a Shrink, (like Doc Samson).  
She opens the door and slaps him, (for abruptly dumping her all those years 
ago). Banners eyes light up green, and you can tell hes fighting his inner 
rage off.  

Once inside, Banner confesses he believes hes dying, and Angela takes 
sympathy on him. He stays there for the next few days while running some 
tests on him at her own lab, (shes got a pretty spiffy lab funded by a 
university right on her property).  She comes to believe hes right: its 
ALS.

Banner feels that his rage is growing out of control(the rage is being created 
by grief for himself and for his dead wife)...its worse than any of the rage 
ever experience by the childlike Hulk, (aka stupid Hulk).

One night while there, Banner awakens from a nightmare and feels himself 
starting to change. He fights it off, but now hes deftly afraid that the next 
time he changes, itll be into a monster.  So Angela hooks him up to a Neuro/
virtual reality toy in her lab...which lets Banner retreat into his 
subconsious mind, and see whats going on in there.  He finds the Stupid Hulk 
is keeping to himself in one corner of the mind, while he discovers the Grey 
Hulk and the Smart Hulk, (from the late 80s and early 90s respectfully) are 
typed up to a tree inside a strangelandscape representing his subconsious.  
Meanwhile, a distant rumbling by a creature is heard in the background. 
Banner realizes its a new personality, a creature of pure rage.  At the end 
of the issue, the beast appears: This Hulk is a giant T-Rex type creature, 
which dwarfs over Banner.

R:  Where the story picks up at the start of the issue, Banner is riding a 
Bus, and its raining outside. Leafless trees, jacket weather, Angela says 
to Bruce in one panel to come inside before he catches cold.  Near the start 
of issue, Banner flashs back to a couple weeks prior when he spent a night 
in a motel in Roanoke, Virginia.  (Virginia is where Angelas home is by the 
way...so maybe Banner ways cruising around the state gathering up the courage 
to go face her).  In this flashback, Banner coughs and falls to the ground 
week. He thinks to himself thats when I first new that something was 
seriously wrong.  

Thing is, at end of Issue 11, in that one panel I was talking about, where 
it was snowing, and Banner was next to the road with the thumbs up sign, 
theres a signpost next to him that says Roanoke Virginia 78 miles.  So 2 
weeks has passed since that last panel in issue 11?  Thats a short gap to 
place those 3 Hulk appearances in other books as listed in the MCP...but I 
suppose its possible.

H #13 QS:  Picks up where we left off.  Banner knows he has to defeat this 
new Raging Hulk before the personality can take root in his head, so he 
frees Joe Fixit, (the Gray Hulk) and the Smart Hulk, (whom Ill call the 
Prof. Hulk from here on out).  They attack the Raging Hulk, (cause they dont 
want to be wiped out too if this personality takes control)...Banner goes off 
in search of the Stupid Hulk...while searching, he stumbles across a chamber 
where he sees several Hulk personalities locked in ice.  He sees these are 
other potential personalities that could come to life if he doesnt keep his 
sanity in check. One of these personalities is awake, and apparently locked 
up in a jail cell.  Banner talks to the creature, and discovers it looks 
like a large Snake/Lizard.  This is the 1st appearance of the Devil Hulk.  He 
beckons Banner to set him free and give him control of the body. He swears 
hell make all those responsible for their life pay.  Banner rejects this 
decent into evil, and runs from this place.  He finally stumbles upon Stupid 
Hulk, whom he finds in a corner somewhere, wishing to be alone. Banner 
convinces Stupid Hulk to go join in the fight.  They finally together beat 
the Raging Hulk into oblivion, making sure that side of him will never show 
up again.  At end of issue, we learn Banner has made a deal with the 3 main 
Hulk personalities: Once his body cant go on as being Bruce Banner, hell 
give control of the body to the 3 Hulks, wholl have to share time in control 
of the body.

R:  Nothing besides whats mentioned above plot wise here...the whole issue 
takes place in his mind anyway.

Hulk #14:  QS:  Dogs of War Pt. 1   Angela takes Banner to his wifes grave. 
Its snowing hard outside.  Banner comments that when you lose someone you 
love, the rest of  your days are winter.  Later, Banner takes Angelas car 
for a spin, driving out no where.  Banner lets his grief get to him again, 
and he pulls the car over in the middle of the forest in Western Virginia, 
(not the state, the Western portion of Virginia), runs into the forest, and 
transforms into Stupid Hulk...whom sits down and contemplates his life.  In 
a distant military base, we meet General Riker, (first appearance) whom is 
after the Hulk for some reason, (you learn why later, and its more than just 
the typical Military after the Hulk story).  Hes using a satelite tracking 
system to look out for Gamma Radiation spikes, and thats how he finds the 
Hulk.  He sends in the military, along with some Gamma irradiated Dogs to 
take out the Hulk. It doesnt work.  At end of issue, Banner appears back on 
Angelas doorstep saying Umm...about your car...the obvious message is 
Stupid Hulk somehow escaped, and made his way back to Angelas home.

R:  As mentioned, theres a hard snowstorm at start of issue. When the Hulk is 
fighting the Gamma Dogs, theres snow on the ground all around.

Hulk #15 QS:  This happens a few days later.  Angela and Bruce are studying 
his condition some more.  Rykers soldiers find Angelas car abandoned, and 
use the liscense plate to track Banner back to Angelas home.  The military 
surrounds the home.  Ryker and his right hand man walk up to the door in 
civilian clothes and act like Bible salesman. Angela and Bruce immediately 
suspect theyre military.  As Ryker and his subordinate walk away, he signals 
the military to close in.  It suddenly clicks in Banners head where hes seen 
Ryker before: he was one of the Generals at Banners original testing of the 
Gamma Bomb.  Banner spots the military snooping around outside, and transforms 
into the Grey Hulk.  Grey Hulk burst open the front door of the house and 
tells the military to back off, otherwise hell hurt the woman.  Then he 
retreats further into the house with Angela, whispering to her hes got a 
plan.   In the end, Grey Hulk escapes with Angela, and Grey Hulk takes some 
pictures of Gen. Ryker.  

R:  Angela makes mention that hes deteriorating more rapidly then a normal 
person with ALS would. She suspects its the Gamma radiation in his body.  She 
says he may only have months to live, whereas normal victims of ALS can take 
years to succumb.

Hulk #16:  QS: Starts shortly after where we left off last issue.  Hulk and 
Angela have retreated to Doc Samsons house.  Samson and Angela are talking, 
shes complaining that she needs a change of clothes, (shes still wearing her 
underwear as seen at end of last issue...Grey Hulk made her undress to disguise 
her in the last issue...though the Grey Hulk may have been simply toying with 
her).  

They go into Doc Samsons lab and see that Prof. Hulk has taken over body 
now.  Hes concocting a radiation cloaking device, since he figures thats how 
the military caught up to him.  Prof. Hulk then goes off to meet Nick Fury.  
Angela confronts Doc Samson with her immediate realization that this version 
of the Hulk is NOT the Hulk with Banners mind.  Banners shy and neurotic, 
she says, this guys brave, and heroic, and more than a little in love with 
himself.  Doc Samson admits that all those years ago, (during the Peter David 
run) when he tried to merge all the Hulks into one body with Banners mind, he 
created a new personality...a braver personality to make his mind more stable, 
which he hoped Banner would merge with over time...but it appears to have 
failed).  

At end of issue, Prof. Hulk retreats to the Florida Swamps, where he 
deactivates his cloaking device, and says Come and get me General.  He wants 
to end this.

R:  When Prof. Hulk meets up with up with Nick Fury, Nick takes a look at the 
photo Gray Hulk got of Ryker, and tells Prof. Hulk what he knows about Gen. 
Ryker: thats he a cloak and dagger lunatic.  Fury comments that hes no 
longer head of Sheild:  Sharon Carter is.  Eek.  This story was published in 
May of 2000.  Same month as when Sharon takes control of Shield over in the 
Cap title I believe.  And may I remind you that their was a snowstorm in issue 
14 of Hulk, (just a few days ago).  If you ignore the Valentines day 
reference in CAP #28, (which I dont blame you for), then youve got a late 
snowstorm in...summer?  Dont know how to help you there.

H #17:  QS:  Gen. Ryker greets private Benny Tibbits, a low ranking soldier 
who was exposed to Gamma Radiation during the Gulf War, (a secret experiment 
organized by Ryker, but he blamed it on Banner and Saddam).  Tibbits codename 
is Flux, because he morphs into a Hulk like creature for short bits.  Ryker 
sends Flux to Florida to attack Prof. Hulk.  Prof. Hulk beats Flux soundly, 
and convinces him that it wasnt the Iraqies that gamma irradiated him, it 
was Ryker.  Tibbits surrenders and sides with the Hulk.    While Prof. Hulk 
was waiting for the military to show up, he went over events in his mind over 
the last few months, and deduces right then and there that he is in fact NOT 
Banner, but another splinter personality.  He comes to accept it.

Doc Samson gets a phone call from Banners cousin, the She-Hulk, saying they 
lost the appeal of Banners conviction of the Plane crash from Issue #4.  
Samson and Angela conclude that someone must have got to the judge.  That 
someone was Ryker.

Ryker blackmails Gen. Ross into helping him locate Banner.  If you recall, 
at the end of Peter Davids run, Gen. Ross had his daughter put into suspended 
animation after she died (back in Hulk #367 I believe).  Ryker takes command 
of Ross center and threatens to turn off the chamber that keeps Betty from 
rotting.  

R:  The Plane crash from Hulk #4 is referenced as happening last year.

H #18 QS: This issue happens an indefinite time after issue 17.  Its enough 
time to pass for Banner to hook up with a conspiracy theorist online, and for 
Flux, aka Tibbits, to start undergoing therapy from Doc Samson and Angela.  
The MCP has Hulk annual 2000 happen in the gap, along with the Hulk: Smash 
Miniseries, (I dont have this supposed Hulk Smash miniseries).  But I doubt 
its much time that has passed, and Id place the annual after issue 20, for 
reasons mentioned later.  

Banner meets up with  Hack, an online conspiracy theorist, who tells Banner 
that Ryker is responsible for Kennedys assissnation, and is working for 
aliens at Area 51 in New Mexico.  Banner doesnt know if he believes him.  We 
then see Ryker meeting with a creature inside a liquid chamber...a creature we 
cant make out except its green, and maybe scaly.  Ryker says hell have 
everything they need soon.

Banner changes into the Prof. Hulk, rushes back to Doc Samsons place, where 
he finds Rykers soldiers have taken command of the place, and Ryker forces 
Prof. Hulk to surrender, otherwise he promises that assisins will take out 50 
innocent people around the world.  Prof. Hulk asks how he found him.  Gen. 
Ross appears and says he turned Ryker onto the possibility that they were 
hiding at Doc Samsons.

R:  Id say only a few days has passed, or maybe a couple of weeks.

H #19:  QS:   Cut to a short time later, perhaps a few days.  Ryker has Prof. 
Hulk hooked up to a machine from which even the Hulk cant escape.  He begins 
torturing the Hulk, in an effort to discover the depths of his power, (and his 
mental stability), to see if he can find a way to control that power.  He also 
begins brainwashing Flux again.  Samson and Angela are locked in a cell 
together, and we discover they are getting close, (intamently) with each 
other.  Ryker puts Hulk/Banner through an emotional wringer, which we see 
produces a horrific result:  Inside Banners subconsious, all of the dormant 
Hulk Personalities are breaking free...including the Devil Hulk.

Nick Fury gets a message from Hack that if Hulk doesnt reappear by a certain 
time, to go to Area 51 to rescue his butt.

R:  Like I said, probably a few days from issue 18.

H #20:  QS:  Dogs of War Pt. 7, the finale.  Gen. Ross turns on Ryker, and 
frees Prof. Hulk.  Ryker frees Flux, whom he has successfully broken, and 
makes Flux and the Hulk battle.  Ross goes deeper into the compound and finds 
what was inside the liquid chamber that Ryker was communicating with:  Its 
Rykers wife.  She developed cancer years ago, and in an effort to save her, 
Rykers exposed her to Gamma Radiation, which have mutated her horribly, but 
has kept her alive.  Ryker wanted the Hulk to study how he mastered the Gamma 
radiation to keep his wife alive.  

Gen. Ross tells her what her husband has done to keep her alive.  She appears 
before Ryker and gives him a good chewing out, saying he didnt have the right 
to ruin others lives to keep her alive.  Nick Fury and Shield break into Area 
51 and take command of the center.  Ryker flees Area 51 in tears, escaping 
with his elite soldiers loyal to him.  

There is an epilogue page at end:  a few days later of Prof. Hulk sitting on 
a boulder, with green trees all around, (could be anywhere), and he realizes 
to himself that all of the personalities inside have broken free.  

R:  Main story happens same day as Hulk #19.  Epilogue page could happen 
anytime after.

Hulk Annual 2000:  QS:  I place this here because the Ryker storyline is 
resolved.  In this issue, Stupid Hulk is in control of the body. I took it 
that Prof. Hulk got control of the body during the last half of the Ryker 
story because they needed his brains and courage.  Now, after the danger 
posed by Ryker, is a good time to have the other Hulks get a turn at the 
wheel so to speak.  

Anyway, in the Annual, it starts with Stupid Hulk standing at night out in 
the desert where Banner was first exposed to Radiation. Stupid Hulk is 
contemplating his birth... and his life.  Hes tired of being alone.

Then we cut to She-Hulk in the Avengers mansion. She is telling the Wasp 
about how she lost the appeal for Hulks conviction, (which we see in a 
flashback happens right before issue 17 of Hulk).  She says shes worried 
about Bruce, where he is, and what hes up to.

He travels to New York, and gets there by next morning.  Hes in Central 
Park, when he starts tearing up the place in typical fashion.   The Avengers 
rush to the scene, and Hulk beats up She-hulk.  Vision concludes that his 
agression against She-hulk is similar to Apes, who beat the females in thier 
clan to later on win submission, and make  them a mate.  Since Stupid Hulk 
is similar in mind to an ape, they figure he must be wanting She-Hulk to be 
a lover.  She-Hulk decides to try and talk to Hulk again.  She-Hulk explains 
that shes not interested in Hulk in that way, and that underneath all that 
greenskin, they were still cousins.  Stupid Hulk doesnt understand, and he 
flies off in a rage, leaving She-Hulk in tears.  The End.

R:  This annual must take place after Vision returns to the team in Avenger 
#31, but before She-Hulk leaves the team in Avengers #32.  Issue #32 is the 
start of the T-Bolts/Avengers crossover featuring Count Nefaria, and that 
leads directly into MS, right?  At start of issue, when Hulk is in New Mexico 
contemplating life, there is a slim crescant moon in the sky, (its either 
right before or right after a new moon).

Hulk #21: QS:  This is the Maximum Security crossover issue.  Sometime has 
passed.  The three Hulk personalities and Bruce are spending time sharing the 
body. In this issue, Grey Hulk gets control of the body.  He wishes to 
complete some business leftover from years ago, when he was in control of the 
body.  He goes to Hack to ask for a favor, but Hack asks Grey Hulk to do him 
a favor first:  Hack drives Grey Hulk out to IOWA to a secret military base, 
and asks him to break in and rescue an Alien Hybrid.  Some aliens along the 
way plot to stop him.  Grey Hulk breaks in and gets the device. Hes about to 
escape when two alien races appear and begins to fight over who gets the 
Hybrid.  Grey Hulk escapes while they fight. He brings it Hack, who opens it 
to see the Hybrid inside...and inside is...a few corn husks.  As they travel 
home, Grey Hulk laughs the entire way, while Hack says, How was I supposed 
to know the Alien/Human Hybrid was a Hybrid of corn?

R:  There are green trees in IOWA.  This is smack dab in the middle of the MS 
crossover.  Doesnt Hulk appear anywhere else in the crossover?

Hulk issue 22 and 23 QS:  This is a two parter.  It continues where the 
Maximum Security issue left off.  That favor that Grey Hulk was asking for 
from Hack was the use of Hacks car.  Apparently Grey Hulk doesnt like 
jumping halfway across the country like Stupid Hulk: hed rather drive 
somewhere in style.  Grey Hulk drives to Chicago, where he fights the Chicago 
mob over some money that was owed him the last time he was in town years ago.  
At the end of the second issue, he gets his money, (10 million I think) spends 
half of it on the town, and buries the rest of it, where Banner will never 
find it.  

R:  Happens over a few days, probably a week.  Last panel of issue 23, as 
Grey Hulk drives out of town, we see a full moon in background.

Hulk #24 QS:  Banners back in control of body in this issue.  Hes undergoing 
therapy with Doc Samson again.  He says hes though a lot of Betty lately, and 
how it was the Prof. Hulk who had come to terms with her death all those 
months, (years?) ago when she died.  He never got the chance.  Gen. Ross comes 
and visits Banner, convinces him to come check out their revamped base at Area 
51.  Banner reluctantly agrees.  Gen. Ross asks for Bruces help in bring in 
the Abomination, whom is responsible for Bettys death by radiation 
poisoning.  Gen. Ross says hes hiding out in a small New Hampshire town.  
Banner refuses.  Then Gen. Ross shows him Bettys body in the cyrogenic 
chamber, and the shock of seeing her again causes Banner to change into the 
Stupid Hulk, who of course goes after the Abomination.    

R:  This issue was published in Jan. 2001 by the way, the same month that the 
new Defenders series began I believe.  Snow is on the ground in the scene 
where Ross visits Banner at Doc Samsons house.  This is after Maximum 
Security, so could it be snow from the Cask of Ancient Winters?  I guess 
depends on how far down the calender you place it.  Maybe if you squeeze in 
some Defenders appearances before hand...there isnt snow on the ground out 
in New Mexico at Area 51, and next issue, we see rain in one part of the 
country and I am unable to deduce the weather in New Hampshire when Hulk 
fights Abomination, except there is no snow or rain there.

Hulk #25 QS:  At start of issue, Stupid Hulk has temporarily reverted to 
Banner, who is lying in shock on the ground somewhere in the country, with 
the rain all around him. Hes half asleep. Inside his mind, Grey Hulk and 
Prof. Hulk are urging Banner to keep his rage and sanity in check.  Banner 
succumbs to his rage against the Abomination, and transforms again into the 
Stupid Hulk.  Stupid Hulk makes his way to the New Hampshire town, which the 
two practically destroy in the ensuing fight.  Stupid Hulk wins and reverts 
to Banner, Ross appears with the military and takes the Abomination into 
custody.  Later, we see Emil, (the Abomination) hooked up to the same machine 
that Ryker was using to keep the Hulk in line back at Area 51.  Banner visits 
Emil one last time, where Emil gloats that even captured, hes still defeated 
Banner utterly by killing Betty.  Banner has Gen. Ross play a tape taking 
from intelligence photos of Emil with his wife back in Russia, (remember Emil 
was a former KGB spy before his becoming the Abomination).  On this tape, she 
swears shell love him forever, (but he knows shes moved on with her life), 
which starts to drive Emil insane.  Banner walks away from Area 51, content 
in his revenge, and transforms into the Stupid Hulk on the way out the door.

R:  There is a full moon during the night Stupid Hulk attacks the Abomination.  
As mentioned above, there is rain in some part of the country at start of 
issue, and no rain or snow in New Hampshire.

Hulk #26  QS:  Stupid Hulk has control of body for this entire solo issue.  
Hes wandering around the country, ends up in a small town, where he sees 
Killer Shrike, (some lamo villian) robbing a bank at night.  Thing is, Killer 
Shrike came here to get away from New York heroes, and he launches an attack 
against the Hulk thinking hes here to arrest him.  Stupid Hulk and Shrike 
knock over a few buildings in a rage, and then leaves.  One of those buildings 
kills Shrikes girlfriend, who was reluctantly taggin along with him across 
the country.  

R:  Another Full Moon in background.  This issues fill in artist is the same 
for issues 21 to 23.  24 and 25 were drawn by Romita Jr.  

Hulk #27-28 QS: To be brief, this issue picks up in Banners mind, where he 
and Betty are living as a happy couple, and he never became the Hulk, and he 
has 2 kids with Betty, and him and Gen. Ross get along great, and he lives 
as a scientist in a pleasant town.  It is of course, a complete fantasy, but 
Banner has fallen for it.  Little cracks start appearing in this reality, 
when Banner starts seeing snakes instead of people from time to time in the 
town where he lives.  He gets a phone call from someone who claims to know 
him, and is trying to tell him its all a lie. He goes to meet this person 
in a run down apartment, and its Joe, (Grey Hulk).  Strangely, Joe looks 
like hes about to whither away, likes hes starved to death.  Joe explains 
that Banner has been subconsiously buying into this fantasy world supplied by 
the Devil Hulk for some time now. He says the Devil Hulk has destroyed all 
the other Hulk personalites that broke free in issue 20, and that Prof. Hulk 
went away looking for a way to combat the Devil Hulks growing presence.  
Stupid Hulk is strangely absent, maybe bubbling just beneath the surface of 
this fantasy world.  

Banner rushs away from Joe, convinced Joes a lunatic.  But the effect the 
of their meeting starts to take place.  Soon, everyone in town starts looking 
like a snake.  Then, Stupid Hulk appears as a Giant bursting through the 
town.  Banner rushes back home, where he meets up with Betty and the kids, 
and his will begins to collapse.  Snake Hulk appears and offers him the 
devils bargain, what the Devil Hulk has been trying to do all along:  I 
can make this fantasy work again, alls you have to do is wish for it to be 
real, and let me have control of the body he says.  Banner refuses, 
denounces this lie, kisses Betty goodbye, marches outside, where Giant Stupid 
Hulk crushes him, thus waking him up from this dream.  He wakes up crying 
inside his room at Doc Samsons house.<p>R:  These two issues take place 
inside Banners mind.

Hulk #29:  QS:Another solo issue.  Banner is being tested by Doc Samson and 
Angela.  A psychic creature called Anibus attacks them that night while they 
sleep.  The creature feeds off of hate, and forces Samson and the Hulk to 
fight.  Banner finally sees through the hate, and defeats Anibus.

R:  nothing here, just a typical night at Doc Samsons place.

Hulk #30 QS:  Banners succumbs to the ALS in issue 30.  Mr. Fantastic 
appears on a monitor talking to Doc Samson. Reed says there is nothing he 
can do for Banner.  Before Banner can die of the disease, he transforms 
into Prof. Hulk.  Prof. Hulk tells Angela and Samson he doesnt think Banner 
can survive again, so hes gone for good.  Inside Banners mind, hes had 
a dream of an old mine shaft in the western United States.  He feels the urge 
to go there.  Prof. Hulk sets off for that mine to see why theyre being 
called there.  Inside the mind, Grey Hulk and Stupid Hulk are holding down 
Snake Hulk, who can do nothing more than curse at all of them.  Banner sits 
there inside the mindscape, moping around.  He comments that there is nothing 
he can do to shut Devil Hulk up, and that theyre just all going to have to 
get used to each other from here on out, (a frightening prospect considering 
Banner cant resume his form in the real world no more).

At end of issue, Prof. Hulk goes to this mine in the American Southwest, 
goes deep within, and discovers what appears to be the Leader.

R:  As mentioned, Reed makes an appearance over a monitor talking to Doc 
Samson.  

Hulk #32:  Prof. Hulk spends the entire issue talking to this creature that 
appears to be the Leader.  Apparently, after the Leaders death years ago, 
(during Peter Davids run), his mind was unable to enter Heaven or to be 
cast into Hell, (apparently his genius kept him trapped as a psychic form 
on this plane of existence).  Hes rebuilt his body from organic waste 
inside this old mineshaft, which was one of his old bases.  He offers Banner 
a cure for his ALS, (he knows all and sees all now).  He give Prof. Hulk a 
device which temporarily transforms him back into Banner, just so Banner 
can be witness to his transcendance to a higher plane.  In return, he gives 
Banner a box which contains instructions on how to defeat ALS.  This Leader 
ghost creatures head swells up huge, then explodes, and we cant tell if 
he transcended or not.  Banner transforms back into Prof. Hulk who escapes 
from the mine with the box of instuctions.

R:  Happens on same day as Banner died in Issue 31.  

Hulk #33:  Final issue of Paul Jenkins run.  Prof. Hulk, Doc Samson, Angela, 
She-Hulk, Thing, and Mr. Fantastic are all at the Baxter Building, about to 
perform an operation on Prof. Hulk which may cure Banner of ALS.  Theyve 
obtained a secret ingredient as detailed in the instructions left by the 
Leader.  They perform the operation, and its a success, (with a few 
pitfalls along the way).  In the subconsious, Banner questions whether this 
will work, and he sees an apparition that looks like the Leader, who is 
screaming out to Banner that he failed, and he still cant go to Nirvana, 
or whereever he was trying to get to.  

At end of issue, we learn secret ingredient was a bit of DNA taking from 
Banners fathers brain, from his grave.  Banner at end of issue is visiting 
his dads grave.  Hes been cured.

R:  Take note of all the appearances from characters in the Baxter Building, 
as mentioned above.  Some say this happened during the Kang War.

Hulk #33:  QS:  This is a fill in issue before Bruce Jones takes over as 
head writer.  On the way back from some Defenders mission, stupid Hulk is 
attacked by Wakanda security forces as he passed through Wakanda.  Some 
old friend of Hulks named Queenie, (as Hulk calls her) gets him to calm 
down.  Quennie (who is apparently a regular figure in the Black Panther 
book) gets Hulk to help with a nuclear sub which has sunk to the bottom 
of the sea.  Hulk rescues the sub, has a fight with Quennie, (she called 
him stupid accidently), and he leaves.

R:  Happens in one day.  If you can find after what Defenders mission 
would cause Stupid Hulk to travel back to America by passing over Wakanda, 
then you know where to place this issue.  I think some others were debating 
where they could place Quennies appearance, but Ill let them debate that.

Hulk Annual 2001:   QS:  A boring fight between Thor and Hulk.  Nothing 
of interest or reference here really. Could go anywhere.

Im afraid thats all I got. I hope it helps, and Im sorry if my quick 
synopsis werent so quick, but I loved some of these issues dearly...and 
then Bruce Jones came  along and took over the writing, and I got bored.

Oh well, let me know what you think, plus any questions or suggestions.

			*	*	*

Re: Incredible Hulk references and reviews part 2!
Posted by Kevin  on October 14, 2002 at 09:16:31:
In Reply to: Incredible Hulk references and reviews part 2!
posted by Kevin  on October 13, 2002 at 16:39:25:

Anyway, on a related note:  In case you don't know what the heck is going on 
in reference to Betty dying, ( I don't know if you collected Hulk back then). 
But the short of it is this:

Heroes Return happens.

Banner gets his body back, and is able to transform into whom I guess to be 
was the Prof. Hulk.  He sure wasn't stupid, but he was kinda vindictive at 
this phase.

Shortly after he gets back, Betty comes down with radiation poisoning, from 
being around the Hulk all these years.  Gen. Ross and Banner rush her to a 
military lab, where they perform an experiment that almost saves her, but at 
the last second she dies.  Banner gets the blame.  Peter David leaves the 
book.  Apparently he wanted to go out on a bang.

Joe Casey picks up the reigns as writer.  He wrote the issues from #368 to 
#374, when the old run was cancelled and they rebooted the title.  Joe Casey 
had Gen. Ross put dead Betty into a cyrogenic chamber of sorts, to keep her 
preserved.  He couldn't bring himself to bury her.  Banner discovers that 
someone other than himself was responsible for poisoning her, so he sets off 
on a quest around the country to investigate who is at fault.  

At the end of Casey's run, the Prof. Hulk has been on some sort of spiritual 
journey with the watcher, and he gets back to Earth just in time to meet Gen. 
Ross and the Abomination, (the Abomination's begging for a fight).  Emil 
admits that it was he who poisoned Betty, and he wants to fight the Hulk in 
a battle to the death.  (Emil blames Banner of course for his perdicament in 
how he became the Abomination).  Prof. Hulk, who just got done with a 
spiritual journey, says he forgives the Abomination.  Emil never expects this 
and runs off hurt, (yeah, I can't figure this out either). 

Gen. Ross forgives the Hulk, shifting all his blame to the Abomination, (which 
is why in issue #24 and 25 of H vol. 3 he's so intent on capturing Emil.  It 
also explains why Banner gets mad in those issues: he didn't have closure, 
the Smart Hulk got closure).

Then the series ended, and was rebooted under John Byrne's writing.  

Hope that helps.

			*	*	*

Re: Incredible Hulk references and reviews part 2!
Posted by Kevin  on October 18, 2002 at 09:12:45:
In Reply to: Incredible Hulk references and reviews part 2!
posted by Kevin  on October 13, 2002 at 16:39:25:

This entry was for the Hulk 2000 Annual

>R: This annual must take place after Vision returns to the team in Avenger
 #31, but before She-Hulk leaves the team in Avengers #32. Issue #32 is the 
start of the T-Bolts/Avengers crossover featuring Count Nefaria, and that 
leads directly into MS, right? At start of issue, when Hulk is in New Mexico 
contemplating life, there is a slim crescant moon in the sky, (its either 
right before or right after a new moon).  

After remembering my astronomy all of a sudden, I figured out this crescant 
moon is just after a new moon. The sliver is on the left side, (our left as 
we look down at the page).  Yeah, I know, technicalities...

The reason I paid attention to that now?  I just got to thinking: that's one 
of the few times I've seen an artist depict the moon in the background of a 
page that was NOT a Full moon.

			*	*	*

JOHN GARRETT...GEIST...GLADIATRIX
Posted by Arthur Stein on October 14, 2002 at 08:17:44:

New entries marked **

GARRETT, JOHN
DD 330
**DD 341
DD 342

GEIST
**W2 17
**W2 18
**W2 19
**W2 20
**W2 21
**W2 22
W2 23

GLADIATRIX
CA 352
**CA 390
**CA 391

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece 
of information engineering!

			*	*	*

Re: GEIST...GLADIATRIX
Posted by Sean Curtin on October 16, 2002 at 17:09:14:
In Reply to: JOHN GARRETT...GEIST...GLADIATRIX
posted by Arthur Stein on October 14, 2002 at 08:17:44:

> GEIST
X-MEN: TRUE FRIENDS 1
X-MEN: TRUE FRIENDS 2
X-MEN: TRUE FRIENDS 3
W2 19-FB
W2 18-FB
> **W2 17
> **W2 18
> **W2 19
> **W2 20
> **W2 21
> **W2 22
> W2 23
 
> GLADIATRIX
> CA 352
CA 389
> **CA 390
> **CA 391
CA 411
CA 412
CA 413
CA 414 (411-414 are probably in the Gap though)

--
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

FONG, DR. CHARLES WARREN "C.W."
Posted by Scott on October 15, 2002 at 10:35:57:

Dr. Charlie Fong actually debuted in Transformers #29, and appeared again 
in issue #30, again despite claims that Transformers is not in Marvel 
continuity.  Both Transformers and Sleepwalker were written by Bob Budiansky, 
so I doubt this is coincidence, and it does not appear to be simply a re-use 
of the name.

			*	*	*

Re: FONG, DR. CHARLES WARREN 
Posted by ShadZ on October 15, 2002 at 10:55:35:
In Reply to: FONG, DR. CHARLES WARREN
posted by Scott on October 15, 2002 at 10:35:57:

This can be easily explained. While the Transformers adventures did not 
happen in the mainstream Marvel Universe (dubbed Earth-616 in various 
Captian Britan & Excalibur stories), they do happen in a universe (let's 
call it Earth-Transformers) that is part of the Marvel Multiverse, and 
therefore has similarities to the Earth-616.  For example, a Spider-Man 
does exist on Earth-Transformers.

So we can just say that the Dr. Fong who appeared in Transformers #29-30 
is the Dr. Fong of Earth-Transformers, and the Dr. Fong in  Sleepwalker 
is the Dr. Fong of Earth-616.  

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Re: FONG, DR. CHARLES WARREN 
Posted by Kevin  on October 15, 2002 at 11:59:22:
In Reply to: Re: FONG, DR. CHARLES WARREN
posted by ShadZ on October 15, 2002 at 10:55:35:

Whoa...then, does this theory give support to those that claim Marvel/DC 
team up and crossover events are in continuity?  Doe this means that the 
DC Universe is part of the "Multiverse" that is referenced in varous Marvel 
comics like Fantastic Four, and Excaliber?  

Hmmm...would there be a Bruce Wayne in the Marvel Universe that didn't 
become Batman?  But then again, there's no Gotham City in the Marvel 
Universe...

It boggles the mind, how all this works.  

			*	*	*

Multiverse Madness!
Posted by Jeph! on October 15, 2002 at 14:08:19:
In Reply to: Re: FONG, DR. CHARLES WARREN
posted by Kevin  on October 15, 2002 at 11:59:22:

Actually, Quasar discovered that there is technically more than one 
MULTIVERSE.

In Quasar #28-31 or so, he travelled to the New Universe (as in, Marvel's 
"other" comic-book universe at the time), and he described it as existing 
OUTSIDE the Multiverse.

It seems likely that, if the DC universe were to "really" exist somewhere 
in conjunction with Marvel, that they both be in separate multiverses as 
well.

The DC vs. Marvel series "personified" each universe as a "brother" that 
was split off from its twin at the universe's creation -- although, it seems 
likely that these "brothers" should actually be viewed as personifying the 
entire Marvel and DC MULTIVERSES.

Confusing, eh?  I just tend to think of them as bubbles within bubbles.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Multiverse Madness!
Posted by Paul O'Brien on October 15, 2002 at 20:35:44:
In Reply to: Multiverse Madness!
posted by Jeph! on October 15, 2002 at 14:08:19:

On the multiverse point, logically it's possible to write crossovers between 
any two fictional universes as long as the writers agree.  If Marvel and DC 
say that the Marvel Vs DC and Access miniseries are in canon - and they do - 
then they must be right.

Oddly enough, I think I'm right in saying that the only intercompany 
crossover to take place in the course of an ongoing Marvel series was the 
thirteenth issues of the Heroes Reborn titles, which formed a crossover 
guest starring characters from Earth-WildStorm.

			*	*	*

Re: Multiverse Madness!
Posted by Grant Di Palma on November 01, 2002 at 10:21:33:
In Reply to: Re: Multiverse Madness!
posted by Paul O'Brien on October 15, 2002 at 20:35:44:

> On the multiverse point, logically it's possible to write crossovers 
between any two fictional universes as long as the writers agree.  If 
Marvel and DC say that the Marvel Vs DC and Access miniseries are in 
canon - and they do - then they must be right.

But if you read the first interview Comic Book Resources did with Kurt 
Busiek and others when the new JLA/Avengers crossover was announced, Busiek 
said that they don't want to recognize the Marvel vs. DC series as the first 
encounter between members of the two teams anymore.  This is because Busiek 
is concerned that it didn't depict any dramatic social reactions in the 
characters' first meetings, since the situation focused immediately on the 
fighting, and that would take away from the effect of the new crossover, 
which would go into more depth. 

			*	*	*

Re: Multiverse Madness!
Posted by ShadZ on October 15, 2002 at 22:33:25:
In Reply to: Multiverse Madness!
posted by Jeph! on October 15, 2002 at 14:08:19:

> Actually, Quasar discovered that there is technically more than one 
MULTIVERSE.

> In Quasar #28-31 or so, he travelled to the New Universe (as in, Marvel's 
"other" comic-book universe at the time), and he described it as existing 
OUTSIDE the Multiverse.

> It seems likely that, if the DC universe were to "really" exist somewhere 
in conjunction with Marvel, that they both be in separate multiverses as 
well.

> The DC vs. Marvel series "personified" each universe as a "brother" that 
was split off from its twin at the universe's creation -- although, it seems 
likely that these "brothers" should actually be viewed as personifying the 
entire Marvel and DC MULTIVERSES.

The collection of all the multiverses is known as the OMNIVERSE.  I think 
the term was used in Quasar (making it official Marvel terminology), but 
it was coined earlier by Mark Gruenwald in his fan writings before he went 
pro...

			*	*	*

TPB Mania!
Posted by Jeph! on October 15, 2002 at 18:03:24:

First off, an apology to Paul or anyone waiting to hear replies for me on 
the "Kang War" topic.  I'm working on it -- but quite frankly, as Sean 
mentioned, the "scope creep" of it has caught up with me.  The notion of 
proofreading Paul's immense calendar, as well as continuing to defend my own 
points of view, is daunting to say the least.  I'll get to it.

This, then, is a new topic, and one which may not help the MCP much -- but 
which will help ME.

I'm currently trying to upgrade as much of my comic collection to TPB format 
as I can -- mainly to save space (no advert pages), and to take advantage of 
generally better printing.  Some TPBs are a no-brainer for me to buy; others 
however have incomplete reprints or other "defects" that cause me to skip 
them.

I'm currently trying to figure out if I should buy the "Mutant Massacre" 
and "Inferno" TPBs.  But what I can't figure out is, do they present the 
story in its correct order?

Can anyone on the board help me place the comics comprising the two 
storylines IN ORDER by events and character appearances?  That way, I can 
cross-check with the TPBs and see if they follow the same order.

The "Fall of the Mutants" trade collects:

Uncanny X-Men #210-213 (I'm not sure; does it contain all four?)
New Mutants #46
X-Factor #9-11
Thor #373-374
Power Pack #27

and "Inferno" contains:

Uncanny X-Men #239-243
New Mutants #71-73
X-Factor #36-39

Anyone who can put these in a definite order, your help would be greatly 
appreciated.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: TPB Mania!
Posted by comico on October 16, 2002 at 05:53:26:
In Reply to: TPB Mania!
posted by Jeph! on October 15, 2002 at 18:03:24:

> The "Fall of the Mutants" trade collects:

that should read mutant massacre,not fall of the mutants

> Uncanny X-Men #210-213 (I'm not sure; does it contain all four?)
> New Mutants #46
> X-Factor #9-11
> Thor #373-374
> Power Pack #27

i thought it was power pack #12 that was the crossover?

i'd say you're spot on with the mutant massacre tpb (except for the power 
pack story) at a guess mind you. but i've never seen an inferno trade and 
going by marvel's tpb policy these days i doubt any new printings will see 
light.

			*	*	*

Re: TPB Mania!
Posted by Jeph! on October 16, 2002 at 10:00:13:
In Reply to: Re: TPB Mania!
posted by comico on October 16, 2002 at 05:53:26:

> > The "Fall of the Mutants" trade collects:

> that should read mutant massacre,not fall of the mutants

Yep.  Ah well, I got it right above.

> > Uncanny X-Men #210-213 (I'm not sure; does it contain all four?)
> > New Mutants #46
> > X-Factor #9-11
> > Thor #373-374
> > Power Pack #27

> i thought it was power pack #12 that was the crossover?

No, PP #27 is the "Massacre" X-over, with Wolverine and Sabretooth -- PP #12 
is a crossover with UX #195, featuring Kitty Pryde and the Morlocks.

> i've never seen an inferno trade and going by marvel's tpb policy these 
days i doubt any new printings will see light.

Actually, it's been through three printings.  It's out there.

So -- anyone?  Assistance?

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: TPB Mania!
Posted by OnionMan on October 16, 2002 at 16:55:23:
In Reply to: Re: TPB Mania!
posted by Jeph! on October 16, 2002 at 10:00:13:

Perhaps these pages will help:

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/crossover/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=205

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/crossover/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=201

			*	*	*

Re: TPB Mania!
Posted by Sean Curtin on October 16, 2002 at 17:13:54:
In Reply to: TPB Mania!
posted by Jeph! on October 15, 2002 at 18:03:24:

The Inferno trade has all of the X-Men/New Mutants/X-Factor issues in the 
correct order, but no other crossovers (not even the X-Terminators mini, 
which was somewhat integral to the crossover).

--
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

GODZILLA issues for other characters except for...GODZILLA
Posted by The Nightmare on October 16, 2002 at 20:00:12:

I saw your multiverse subject and I thought of Godzilla. When I looked in 
the MCP listings I saw no Godzilla enrty, but I saw listings of Godzilla 
issues for characters that appeared in Godzilla. Why not have Gozilla listed?

Another thing about Godzilla would be..."Were did he goto after Godzilla #24?" 
You could say he was transported to the Dark Horse universe via a Negative 
Zone portal and that's where is remains.

			*	*	*

Re: GODZILLA issues for other characters except for...GODZILLA
Posted by John Simons</a> on October 16, 2002 at 22:43:22:
In Reply to: GODZILLA issues for other characters except for...GODZILLA
posted by The Nightmare on October 16, 2002 at 20:00:12:

	Godzilla has appeared in the MU since his 70's series; Dr. Demonicus 
used him in some issues of Iron Man and West Coast Avengers. He mutated the 
big guy, causing him to grow horns and otherwise look different enough from 
Godzilla not to be sued. Nobody calls the creature "Godzilla" since Marvel 
lost the license, but it is supposed to be the same creature from the 
Godzilla series. 

	As for why the MCP doesn't list Godzilla-- was he given a new name 
after he was mutated???

			*	*	*

Hulk in the Savage Land
Posted by JLH on October 17, 2002 at 06:02:32:

Was just rummaging through some of the Incredible Hulks from 1996, and 
happened upon a few Spideys from that same time period. I did some checking 
of Hulk's MCP listing, and noticed a small error. In SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MEN 
#14 & 15, Hulk is showing as living on "Hulk Island", which he didn't do 
until Hulk #451. But SENSM 14 & 15 are listed as occurring LONG before that, 
after H435, which would have been at a point when he'd be travelling around 
with Betty, not taking over tiny islands. Course, I was hoping SENSM 15 
could tie in with Hulk's Savage Land entrance in H454, since he's never 
shown leaving the place in the Spidey story, but he actually flees from 
"Hulk Island" in H453, and heads for the South Pole, which is where H454's 
FB takes up (not to say he might not have ended up there between panels, 
having used the monster attack on the island to end him up there). 

			*	*	*

Three other small MCP corrections
Posted by JLH on October 17, 2002 at 06:17:05:
In Reply to: Hulk in the Savage Land
posted by JLH on October 17, 2002 at 06:02:32:

Listings are as they currently are on MCP, with my comments on corrections 
in ().

SHARPE, ROSALIND
DD 353
V:OT 1
DD 355

(since the Mr Hyde trial storyline consumes much of the law firm's time & 
attention, Venom On Trial must occur following the Hyde storyline, which 
ended, IIRC with DD 357 or so. She even mentions the trial in V:OT 1, in a 
past tense way. I'd assume this would mean Foggy Nelson & Matt Murdock's V:OT 
appearances, if any, would have to be after it as well)

VENOM/ EDDIE BROCK
V:OT 3
V:F 1
V:F 2
V:F 3
V:CU 3
SM:VA
PPSM2 8-BTS

(V:CU 3 takes place LOOOONG before where it's place here, right before V:CU 4 
& ASMSS 1 in fact. SM:VA should be listed as taking place between V:OT1 3 & 
V:F 1. In SM:VA, Venom works for the government, which he doesn't start doing 
until the final issue of V:OT. In V:F 3, Eddie loses the symbiote, and is 
sent to jail until his PPSM2 appearance.)

NELSON, FRANKLIN "FOGGY"
DD 358
O:MU-FB
(DD 358 makes numerous references to taking place AFTER O:MU. So these two 
should be flipped)

			*	*	*

[ANNOUNCE] The Old Order Changeth...
Posted by Administrator on October 17, 2002 at 22:00:20:

About a year ago, Lee Seitz, one of our Directors, had to step down from his 
position on the Board, due to a blessed event. At the time, I paced and 
deliberated for many weeks over a proper replacement, but finally decided 
on...not deciding, and just hobbling along, only slightly shorthanded.

This past weekend, another of our Directors, StAkAr Karnak, tendered his 
resignation. StAkAr's time will be devoted to some exciting new personal 
ventures, which I'll leave it to him to announce, when he's ready to spring 
it on the world. I have mixed feelings, of course. StAkAr, like all of our 
Directors, has been a contributor to the Project almost since its genesis, 
and so I accepted his resignation with regret and a feeling of loss, but 
I'm also tremendously excited for him. Thanks, StAkAr, and don't be a 
stranger. Live long and prosper.

Deep breath.

But that brings us to a turning point. I don't want to be short two members 
of the Board. Lee and StAkAr can't be replaced, but they CAN be followed, 
and I'm excited to announce two new additions to the Board of Directors.

JEPH YORK has been one of our most prolific (and entertaining) contributors 
on the Posting Board since its inception. He has a burning passion for the 
*spirit* of the Project, and his ability to juggle a dozen disparate 
plotlines in his head, remembering which side of her head Rogue parted her 
hair on in Uncanny X-Men #205, is second to none. Plus, he offered me a 
dozen Krispy Kreme doughnuts to get the position. Glazed.

You don't have to cruise the Marvel Comics Fan Underworld on the Internet 
very deeply, before you run across the name of PAUL O'BRIEN. Whether you've 
stumbled across his X-Axis (the best comics review site on the web; see 
link below), caught his observations on usenet (I make it a point to read 
everything he posts in r.a.c.m.u.; you should too), followed his Article 10 
column for Ninth Art (I won't post the link here; you can pick it up at 
X-Axis (why haven't you already gone there?)), or just perused some of his 
messages here, sometimes it seems that Paul is just everywhere. And he's 
respected everywhere. And yet, he never spreads himself too thin. He's 
awfully difficult to argue with, and he always makes sense. I suppose it's 
true that some of us have a way with words, and other people...not...have 
way, I guess (with apologies to Steve Martin).

Anyway, I'm terribly proud to say that both of these scholars of the Marvel 
Universe have agreed to step aboard in an official capacity (or as official 
as we get around here), and I think everyone will see a stronger project as 
a result.

As you were.

			*	*	*

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The Old Order Changeth...
Posted by SKleefeld on October 18, 2002 at 09:26:10:
In Reply to: [ANNOUNCE] The Old Order Changeth...
posted by Administrator on October 17, 2002 at 22:00:20:

> About a year ago, Lee Seitz, one of our Directors, had to step down from 
his position on the Board, due to a blessed event. At the time, I paced and 
deliberated for many weeks over a proper replacement, but finally decided 
on...not deciding, and just hobbling along, only slightly shorthanded.

> This past weekend, another of our Directors, StAkAr Karnak, tendered his 
resignation. StAkAr's time will be devoted to some exciting new personal 
ventures, which I'll leave it to him to announce, when he's ready to spring 
it on the world. I have mixed feelings, of course. StAkAr, like all of our 
Directors, has been a contributor to the Project almost since its genesis, 
and so I accepted his resignation with regret and a feeling of loss, but I'm 
also tremendously excited for him. Thanks, StAkAr, and don't be a stranger. 
Live long and prosper.

And here I thought Lee was doing the strong, but silent routine.  :)

Sorry to see StAkAr go, but best of luck to future endeavors.

> Deep breath.

> But that brings us to a turning point. I don't want to be short two members 
of the Board. Lee and StAkAr can't be replaced, but they CAN be followed, and 
I'm excited to announce two new additions to the Board of Directors.

Jeph, your desk is in the mail.  ;)

Seriously, congrats and welcome aboard to both of you. I know firsthand that 
you both have added a lot to the MCP already, and I'm sure this promotion 
will only give you guys that much more reason to keep working towards sorting 
out this whole mess we call the Marvel Universe.

Welcome aboard, guys!

> As you were.

Oh, you mean STILL trying to get around to punching holes in Paul B's latest 
calendar? :)

Paul, I did spend part of last weekend going through it very carefully. (What 
the heck else am I supposed to do on a 5-hour plane ride?) I've got a few 
points that I would like to look up and cross-check in the books before I 
respond to it though. (Mostly on books you don't have anyway.) One of these 
days, I'll get to it though!

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The Old Order Changeth...
Posted by Jeph! on October 18, 2002 at 15:12:06:
In Reply to: Re: [ANNOUNCE] The Old Order Changeth...
posted by SKleefeld on October 18, 2002 at 09:26:10:

Thanks for the kind words, Sean, and the even kinder introduction from Russ.

By the way, the Krispy Kreme Donuts part was a lie!  A LIE!  It was TWO dozen.

Hopefully I'll be able to do some good here.

But, my God, what a coup -- Paul O'Brien too!  Now THIS is worthy of some 
notice.  For all I bring to the table, I'd wager Paul brings ... oh, loads 
more.

I look forward to, essentially, continuing the exact same stuff we've all 
been doing on here, with all of the rest of you -- only this time, with a 
BADGE!  Hoo-hah!

StAkAr, though, will be missed -- I hope he has time to pop back here every 
now and then.

>> JEPH YORK has been one of our most prolific (and entertaining) 
contributors on the Posting Board since its inception.

"JEPH YORK is very loud."

> > ... remembering which side of her head Rogue parted her hair on in 
Uncanny X-Men #205...

Hey -- Rogue wasn't *in* UX #205!  Was this a test?

> > You don't have to cruise the Marvel Comics Fan Underworld on the Internet 
very deeply, before you run across the name of PAUL O'BRIEN.

"PAUL O'BRIEN has written hundreds of thousands of very intelligent reviews 
and articles and commentaries about the X-Books in particular and comics in 
general.  He is deeply respected, and his word is law."

"JEPH YORK remains quite loud."

> Jeph, your desk is in the mail.  ;)

Yeah, about that.  Hasn't arrived yet ... did you send it Media Rate or 
something?

> Oh, you mean STILL trying to get around to punching holes in Paul B's 
latest calendar? :)

Yeah, I'm slowly plodding through it too.

I actually find it easier to remove all date references and look at it as a 
string of continuous appearances -- I can pick out mistakes faster that 
way.

> I've got a few points that I would like to look up and cross-check in the 
books before I respond to it though.

Yep -- I've got a few bones left to pick with Paul as well.  But, overall, 
I think we may well be nearing the finish line on this!

Which is good, because I've got all my INFERNO books out in a pile, waiting 
to go...

Thanks again, all!  Four more years!

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Junk that rear-view mirror!
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 18, 2002 at 19:09:05:
In Reply to: [ANNOUNCE] The Old Order Changeth...
posted by Administrator on October 17, 2002 at 22:00:20:

On the Seventeenth of October, this year of Two-Thousand-Two, our beloved 
SysOp said:

This past weekend, another of our Directors, StAkAr Karnak, tendered his 
resignation. StAkAr's time will be devoted to some exciting new personal 
ventures, which I'll leave it to him to announce, when he's ready to spring 
it on the world. I have mixed feelings, of course. StAkAr, like all of our 
Directors, has been a contributor to the Project almost since its genesis, 
and so I accepted his resignation with regret and a feeling of loss, but 
I'm also tremendously excited for him. Thanks, StAkAr, and don't be a 
stranger. Live long and prosper.

As Kurt might say, "Thanks for the kind words."

I've carried a feeling of guilt for some time.  Being invited by the Founder 
of the MCP to share in being a charter member of its Board of Directors is 
a unique distinction, a privilege, and an honor.  There are no written dues, 
no lofty expectations demanded, but we all look forward to synergistic 
collaboration.

Circumstances change.  While I could list a number of things I'd love to 
do for the Project, I don't have the heart I once did for the work.  The 
list of titles I read has dwindled and I can only justify a limited amount 
of devotion to the cause.  I feel like I've been going to a picnic empty-
handed and eating everybody's food.  In short, I'm a dinosaur.

Therefore, I believe that my departure is in the best interest of the 
Project.  Misters O'Brien and York are two of the most horrifically 
passionate and prolific individuals I know and are tremendous assets of 
fresh blood to the MCP.

As for myself, I've been rethinking a lot of priorities and doing things 
that need doing.  Thanks to all for the well-wishes.

StAkAr Karnak, looking into an MCP pension...

			*	*	*

Re: [ANNOUNCE] The Old Order Changeth...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on October 25, 2002 at 17:46:38:
In Reply to: [ANNOUNCE] The Old Order Changeth...
posted by Administrator on October 17, 2002 at 22:00:20:

Having been out of town for the last week, this is the first chance I've had 
to post on this thread.  Anyhow, I'm delighted to be joining.  I'm reading 
most of the current Marvel line at the moment (yes, even the Call minis), so 
I can hopefully help fill in some blanks...

			*	*	*

X-Men Continuity Guide
Posted by BeasiL on October 18, 2002 at 09:39:38:

hi there, i was wondering if anyone would be interested in helping me 
complete an xmen continuity guide, it ends somewhere in 1998. I have used 
Jeph's guide which is very useful but there is a period before maximum 
secruity and after 1998 that needs doing still. Also there is a number of 
limited series and oneshots that i feel still need including.

so if anyone is interested in helping me i would be most appreciative, reply 
to this post and let me know, if anyone is willing to help i'll post what 
ive come up with so far and what i feel needs adding still :) 

thanks in advance

BeasiL

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men Continuity Guide
Posted by Kevin  on October 18, 2002 at 13:42:44:
In Reply to: X-Men Continuity Guide
posted by BeasiL on October 18, 2002 at 09:39:38:

> hi there, i was wondering if anyone would be interested in helping me 
complete an xmen continuity guide, it ends somewhere in 1998. I have used 
Jeph's guide which is very useful but there is a period before maximum 
secruity and after 1998 that needs doing still. Also there is a number of 
limited series and oneshots that i feel still need including.

> so if anyone is interested in helping me i would be most appreciative, 
reply to this post and let me know, if anyone is willing to help i'll post 
what ive come up with so far and what i feel needs adding still :) 

How exactly do you need help?  What's this continuity guide look like? Is 
it a calender like what Paul's got since Maximum Security?

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men Continuity Guide
Posted by BeasiL on October 18, 2002 at 18:23:18:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men Continuity Guide
posted by Kevin  on October 18, 2002 at 13:42:44:

well, have u ever seen Rajiv Mote's continuity guide? its a txt with issue 
name and number, then a small description in order of continuity, i have 
found it to be the best guide, but it wasnt updated after 1998. I emailed 
him about this and asked if he would be updating it, he replied and said 
no, but also said i was free to do so if i wanted..

its a fairly big txt, how should i go about showing it?

thanks
BeasiL

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men Continuity Guide
Posted by Administrator on October 18, 2002 at 22:30:13:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men Continuity Guide
posted by BeasiL on October 18, 2002 at 18:23:18:
 
Is there a link that you could post?

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men Continuity Guide
Posted by BeasiL on October 19, 2002 at 00:14:29:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men Continuity Guide
posted by Administrator on October 18, 2002 at 22:30:13:

i uploaded the txts to my webspace

heres whats there:

http://users.bigpond.net.au/atas/xmstory.txt - This is the guide so far, 
before the line break is what Rajiv Mote' did, after the linebreak is what 
i have added, taking bits and peices from jephs! guide, and doing a bit of 
my own thing there. Where the line break occurs is where i need help from 
mostly.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/atas/x-title_list.txt - This is a list of xmen 
stuff that still needs to be added. Let me know if u think theres something 
there that should be there or something that shouldnt :)

Like i said before any comments, help or suggestions would be GREATLY 
appreciated

Regards
BeasiL

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men Continuity Guide
Posted by Jeph! on October 20, 2002 at 11:13:55:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men Continuity Guide
posted by BeasiL on October 20, 2002 at 07:29:29:

> posted the links....any ideas?

Any ideas on what, how to fill the gaps?

Actually, I'm curious why you don't use the MCP's information to place all 
the books you're looking to place?  If you cross-check enough character 
information you're bound to come up with a consistent order.

For example, look up Cyclops, Professor X, Coloccus and Rogue -- four X-Men 
who don't actually have their own series.  By cross-matching their listed 
appearances, you can get a before-and-after structure for reading all the 
comics they appear in.

Then you can start adding in Wolverine, who HAS his own book, and his 
listing here will show you how to weave his book in and out of his other 
X-book appearances.

Anything you can get done with THIS method, using work that's ALREADY BEEN 
DONE, is probably going to yield loads more results than asking us to start 
over again and fill in a three-year gap on someone ELSE'S chronology list.

Anything that you COULDN'T fit using this method, though, I'm sure you could 
get some help on.

    -Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men Continuity Guide
Posted by BeasiL on October 21, 2002 at 18:29:55:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men Continuity Guide
posted by Jeph! on October 20, 2002 at 11:13:55:

never thought to do it that way, thanks for the idea. i'll more than likely 
run into a few questions though, i hope u dont mind if i ask about them here

			*	*	*

Super Sabre mistake: X-Men #106 appearance
Posted by The Nightmare on October 18, 2002 at 22:40:55:

The Sabre in X-Men #106 can't be the same Sabre that appeared in New Mutants 
Annual #7 story 2. WHY? I can give one BIG reason why. Super Sabre was 
decapitated (head chopped off) in the New Mutants Annual Story. Unless he 
had a healing factor that could grow another head, it's not the same guy. 
Another reason that Sabre in X-Men #106 is not the same is the one that 
apperared in NM@7/2 was an old man! The guy in X-Men #106 is young and only 
referred to as Sabre not Super Sabre. This makes him either Sabre or Super 
Sabre II. If he is the same guy, how did he survive losing his head and how 
did he regain his youth?

			*	*	*

GLOB...GOOM...GREY GARGOYLE
Posted by Arthur Stein on October 19, 2002 at 00:58:37:

New entries marked **

GLOB/DR. SUMNER BECKWITH
Currently in the MCP:
H2 389-FB
H2 125
H2 129
H2 389

First, the H2 125 entry should read H2 121.

The Glob in H2 121 and H2 129 is not Dr. Sumner Beckwith. The Glob in H2 121 
and H2 129 is Joe Timms,  who was imprisoned. Denied permission to see the 
woman he loved who was dying, he escaped and perished in the swamp becoming 
the Glob.  

At the time of H2 389 (Marvel Real time of 1991) Banner reads Dr. Beckwiths 
journal which is specifically dated 1990. Also when Paris briefs Banner, he 
states that Beckwith disappeared a year ago which ties to the journal.  
Banner identifies the Glob as someone he met years ago.

Either:
a) Dr Beckwith turns into a new less hairy Glob (GLOB II) that the Hulk 
mistakenly identifies as the Glob he fought in H2 121 and 129. The original 
Glob was not a killer. He died saving Betty Ross in the swamp. The Leader 
imbued his re-incarnation with a hatred of the Hulk. When he next encountered 
the Hulk he was under control of the Collector.(H2 197)

or

b) The Glob in H2 389 IS the original Glob and we actually do not know what 
happened to Beckwith. He is still among the missing. His journal only tells 
that he tested it on himself and thensomethings terribly wrong. The 
image of him changing shows only partial skin mutation and this may be just 
Banners IDEA of what the journal was describing. 

or

c)The Glob in H2 389 may be both; i.e., Beckwith disappeared in the swamp 
and was absorbed into the muck of GLOB I. This is why Banner somehow 
recognizes him, despite the change in appearence(Banner says We met years 
ago, when he was a hairier Glob)

Personally I like option a). in which case..

GLOB/JOE TIMMS
**H2 121-FB ~ **GSM-T 1  (both tell of Joe Timms life pre-Glob)
**H2 121
H2 129
**GSM-T 1 (A cultist named Yagzan found the brain after Globs destruction 
in H2 129 and inadvertently returns it to the swamp where it reconstructs 
itself)
**H2 197
**H2 198

GLOB II/DR. SUMNER BECKWITH
H2 389-FB
H2 389

GOOM
**TOS 15
M/VS 1/3

(I put this in part for fun, but part because they ARE both GOOM, have the 
same basic shape, same basic coloration and very similar clothing , allowing 
for the standard artistic deviation over time)

GREY GARGOYLE/PAUL PIERRE DUVAL/"PAUL ST. PIERRE"
T 259-FB
** T 257
T 258
T 259

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent 
piece of information engineering!

			*	*	*

Updated X-Men Continuity Guide.. please look
Posted by BeasiL on October 22, 2002 at 08:42:14:

using jeph!'s suggestions i have updated the xmstory.txt guide that i 
previously posted a link to.

the link is http://users.bigpond.net.au/atas/xmstory.txt

please take the time to look at it and let me know what you think. if there 
are any errors, (Im sure there are plenty :P) additions or any other 
suggestions you have so i can update it and make it as correct as possible 
so others can use the guide.

also, please remember that the majority of my additions are after the line 
break (under wolverine 130). I have changed/added a few things to the 
original guide though. (before the linkbreak)

thanks for reading and i hope you can take the time to take a look and give 
me some feedback.

BeasiL

			*	*	*

Re: Updated X-Men Continuity Guide.. please look
Posted by Kevin  on October 22, 2002 at 11:04:31:
In Reply to: Updated X-Men Continuity Guide.. please look
posted by BeasiL on October 22, 2002 at 08:42:14:

What's Origin doing where you placed it? Isn't the list in chronological 
order so to speak?  Origin takes place in the early years of Logan's life, 
and thus shouldn't be on there except before your list starts, right? 

			*	*	*

Re: Updated X-Men Continuity Guide.. please look
Posted by BeasiL on October 22, 2002 at 17:05:54:
In Reply to: Re: Updated X-Men Continuity Guide.. please look
posted by Kevin  on October 22, 2002 at 11:04:31:

oooops. dont ask me how that got there :p

			*	*	*

X-Tinction Agenda TPB
Posted by Jeph! on October 22, 2002 at 13:38:24:

A while back we were talking about added scenes in TPBs.  YWell, I finally 
snapped and bought the X-Tinction Agenda TPB (it was a first print from 1992, 
how could I pass it up?), and now I'm in a position to log the extra scenes 
for the MCP.

There are two and a half pages added to the book, added to help space out 
multiple double-page spreads, and to cover for material that was REMOVED (1.5 
pages dealing with a Lila Cheney/Guido subplot were removed from the TPB's 
version of UX #270).

New Scene #1 takes place between page 6 panel 4, and pages 7-8 panel 6 (7-8 
are a double-page spread) of UX #270.  More specifically, it takes place just 
outside the Danger Room, DURING p.6 panel 5, and p.7-8 panels 1-5).  It 
features Rictor, Wolfsbane, Boom-Boom, and, in silhouette, Cable, and shows 
them being grumpy that the X-Men are hogging the Danger Room.

This new scene, following on the heels of Rictor's funk on p.6 panel 4, 
reveals that Boom-Boom and Wolfsbane are standing right next to him -- 
possibly granting them BTS appearances for UX #270 p.6.  (And yes, the 
distinction is important, because they don't make their first showing in 
UX #270 until p.7-8.)  There's not enough time for Rictor to be talking to 
himself and THEN have the others walk up (only one panel elapses between 
the scenes), so it's likely that the New Mutants, AS A GROUP, are outside, 
waiting to use the Danger Room.

(Cable, on the other hand, DOES walk into the scene -- so he's *not* BTS 
on page 6.)

New Scene #2 takes place just after the end of page 9 of UX #270.  It's a 
half-page, one-panel addition to the p.9's end-of-scene (p.10 picks up the 
Guido subplot, and p.11 panel 5 is a time jump back to the X-Men, probably 
30 minutes or so after the end of p.9).  It features Cable, Rictor, and 
Boom-Boom, Cable growling "well, you wanted the Danger Room -- now use it."

Since Wolfsbane is standing right next to the others on p.9 panel 7, we 
can probably ASSUME that she is still there, less than one second later, 
BTS just off-panel in this new scene.  She doesn't have time to leave the 
room (p.9 pan 7 shows us the X-Men walking to the exit, and it's far on the 
other side of the room), and Wolfsbane clearly didn't leave WITH the X-Men, 
so the assumption that she's still in the Danger Room, at most a few feet 
off-panel, is sound.

New Scene #3 takes place between pages 4-5 of NM #96.  It's just an added 
page of fighting, featuring Boom-Boom and Rictor against two Genoshan troops.  
Boom-Boom is talking to Jubilee in this new scene, so we can safely give 
Jubes a BTS appearance in this new scene as well.

And there we have it, folks!  New chronologies should look like this:

BOOMER (BOOM-BOOM) / TABITHA SMITH
...
NM 94
UX 270-BTS
*X-TA
UX 270
*X-TA
UX 270
NM 95
XF 60
UX 271
NM 96
*X-TA
NM 96
UX 272
...

CABLE / NATHAN CHRISTOPHER CHARLES SUMMERS / NATHAN DAYSPRING ASKANI'SON
...
NM 94
*X-TA
UX 270
*X-TA
UX 270
NM 95
...

JUBILEE / JUBILATION LEE
...
UX 271
NM 96
*X-TA-BTS
NM 96
UX 272
...

RICTOR / JULIO ESTEBAN RICHTER
...
NM 94
UX 270
*X-TA
UX 270
*X-TA
UX 270
NM 95
XF 60
UX 271
NM 96
*X-TA
NM 96
UX 272
...

WOLFSBANE / RAHNE SINCLAIR
...
NM 94
UX 270-BTS
*X-TA
UX 270
*X-TA-BTS
UX 270
NM 95
...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Cap &amp; Mags
Posted by Buputa on October 22, 2002 at 15:06:03:

Does anybody know of any instances where Captain America & Magneto's paths 
intersected?  Apart from Secret Wars and stuff like that - I mean direct 
contact.  Any info would be great!  Thanks!

			*	*	*

Re: Cap &amp; Mags
Posted by Jeph! on October 22, 2002 at 16:49:28:
In Reply to: Cap & Mags
posted by Buputa on October 22, 2002 at 15:06:03:

Off the top of my head, there's Captain America Annual #4, as well as the 
X-Men Vs. the Avengers miniseries.

Magneto appeared in Avengers #47-49, #53, and #110-111 -- but I'm not sure 
if Cap was on the team during those periods.

(By the way, don't be fooled by the Onslaught saga, where Cap met and fought 
"Joseph" -- this turned out to be NOT an amnesiac Magneto, but actually his 
CLONE.  Accept no substitutes!)

One can always take Cap's MCP chronology and Magneto's, and compare the two 
to find mutual appearances.

Hope this was helpful.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Cap &amp; Mags
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 22, 2002 at 21:33:18:
In Reply to: Re: Cap & Mags
posted by Jeph! on October 22, 2002 at 16:49:28:

> > Does anybody know of any instances where Captain America & Magneto's 
paths intersected?  Apart from Secret Wars and stuff like that - I mean 
direct contact.  Any info would be great!  Thanks!

> Off the top of my head, there's Captain America Annual #4, as well as the 
X-Men Vs. the Avengers miniseries.

> Magneto appeared in Avengers #47-49, #53, and #110-111 -- but I'm not sure 
if Cap was on the team during those periods.

In 110-111, yes.  But not in 47-49 and 53.

New Mutants #40 pops into my head, but I haven't double-checked this.

			*	*	*

Re: Cap &amp; Mags
Posted by Buputa on October 23, 2002 at 15:41:55:
In Reply to: Re: Cap & Mags
posted by Jeph! on October 22, 2002 at 16:49:28:

Thanks so much!  I also discovered in that Acts of Vengeance series from Cap 
Vol 1 - but Magneto goes after the Skull from the issues I have - not really 
after Cap.

Thanks Jeph!!

			*	*	*

GRIFFIN II ... GRIZZLY ... GYPSY MOTH
Posted by Arthur Stein on October 23, 2002 at 17:38:02:

New entries marked **

GRIFFIN II/JOHNNY HORTON
N 17
**N 18

GRIZZLY/MAXWELL MARKHAM
**ASM 140-FB	
**ASM 139
ASM 140

GYPSY MOTH
AWC 78
**AWC 79

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent 
piece of information engineering!

			*	*	*

A.I.M. HYDRA THEM
Posted by Newguy on October 24, 2002 at 21:05:13:

Hey,
Yup, a newby to this incredible site!  Just wondering where the appearances 
of these great Marvel evil mastermind groups might be.  I've tried all the 
different names for them that I know about, but still no dice!  Any help 
would be greatly appreciated and a hearty Make Mine (Mar---) Chronology 
Project to everyone!

			*	*	*

Re: A.I.M. HYDRA THEM
Posted by Jhaeman on October 28, 2002 at 13:38:05:
In Reply to: A.I.M. HYDRA THEM
posted by Newguy on October 24, 2002 at 21:05:13:

Sorry it's taken so long for a response--a bit of that old "someone else 
will do it, so why should I?"  Anyway, groups are not listed on the MCP 
yet--just individuals.  If I remember correctly, one of our contributors 
was working on a separate listing of group appearances, but I don't know 
the status of that yet.  Anyway, welcome!

			*	*	*

Anyone have info on Sunset Baine
Posted by Ryker on October 25, 2002 at 11:14:08:

she's an iron man character and i haven't been able to find her in the 
alphabetical listings. about when did she start appearing? thanks.

			*	*	*

Hmm ... nope!
Posted by Jeph! on October 25, 2002 at 15:27:11:
In Reply to: Anyone have info on Sunset Baine
posted by Ryker on October 25, 2002 at 11:14:08:

You're quite right -- she's not there!  Odd.

I don't know anything about the character, but I would infer from the fact 
that she's NOT listed that she must be rather new.  The MCP has listed up 
through IM3 #46 -- maybe that means she first started appearing AFTER that 
issue?

Then again, she could have been around for years and simply be in the MCP 
under a code-name or alias.

I'm sorry I can't be of more help.  But, you're right -- she ain't in there.

Anyone else know anything more?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Hmm ... nope!
Posted by Philippe Boulier</a> on October 26, 2002 at 06:36:04:
In Reply to: Hmm ... nope!
posted by Jeph! on October 25, 2002 at 15:27:11:

> Then again, she could have been around for years and simply be in the MCP 
under a code-name or alias.

She has, and she appears in the MCP under the code-name Madame Menace.

Philippe

			*	*	*

Sunset Bain
Posted by Arthur Stein on October 25, 2002 at 16:11:47:
In Reply to: Anyone have info on Sunset Baine
posted by Ryker on October 25, 2002 at 11:14:08:

Sunset Bain  will be found under MADAME MENACE.

Curious note... in the listings an appearance is listed in MM2 1. This takes 
place in 2020 and should likely not be listed in this version of the MCP.  It 
refers to the Machine Man Limited Series. It this series, Sunset Bain is the 
main antagonist for Machine Man and for Arno Stark, the Iron man of 2020.

			*	*	*

The Terrible Tri-Man
Posted by elhonez on October 25, 2002 at 15:36:23:

From PPSM #25. Add this dude!

			*	*	*

Irv Wesley
Posted by Rhoda Horwitz on October 25, 2002 at 22:13:52:

What comics for Timely/Atlas did Irv Wesley do between 1953 ansd 1973?

			*	*	*

Re: Irv Wesley
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 27, 2002 at 01:42:10:
In Reply to: Irv Wesley
posted by Rhoda Horwitz on October 25, 2002 at 22:13:52:

> What comics for Timely/Atlas did Irv Wesley do between 1953 ansd 1973?

According to The Unofficial Handbook to Marvel Comics Creators 
( http://mitglied.lycos.de/maelmill/ ), he drew Marvel Premiere #5.

			*	*	*

Re: Irv Wesley
Posted by Sam Kweskin on October 31, 2002 at 14:14:03:
In Reply to: Re: Irv Wesley
posted by Andy Holcombe on October 27, 2002 at 01:42:10:

And he drew far more than that one---I should know. I used the name IRV 
WESLEY from time to time when I wasn't using Sam Kweskin, my real name.

			*	*	*

JONAS HALE...HALFLIFE...HARDBALL
Posted by Arthur Stein on October 27, 2002 at 19:25:52:

New entries marked **

HALE, JONAS
**IM 120
**IM 121
**IM 143
**IM 244
IM 288-FB-BTS
IM:IA 1-FB
IM:IA 1
IM:IA 2
ASM@ 25
...

 Im afraid I cannot identify the BTS FB in IM 288 and I do not own the IM:IA 
issues, soI have no clue as to the chronological placement of the new entries 
regarding those issues.

HALFLIFE
**WCA2 12
**WCA2 13
Q 10

HARDBALL
T 446
**AWC 82

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece 
of information engineering!

			*	*	*

Re: JONAS HALE...HALFLIFE...HARDBALL
Posted by Sean Curtin on October 30, 2002 at 10:55:53:
In Reply to: JONAS HALE...HALFLIFE...HARDBALL
posted by Arthur Stein on October 27, 2002 at 19:25:52:

>  Im afraid I cannot identify the BTS FB in IM 288 and I do not own the 
IM:IA issues, soI have no clue as to the chronological placement of the 
new entries regarding those issues.

I would assume they would be placed between IM:IA 2 and ASM@ 25.

--
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

The Return of George
Posted by SKleefeld on October 28, 2002 at 08:09:28:

I heard back from George Olshevsky this morning. I think I caught him totally 
off guard with my earlier email. His response, so far...

> For more than two weeks, your email left me too flabbergasted to respond. 
In the next few days, as time permits, I'll try to answer your questions and 
write a bit about the old Marvel Index project. I'm also going to prepare 
some kind of contribution for the 100th issue of APA-I, a venue to which I 
once was a regular contributor.

APA-I stands for "Amateur Press Alliance for Indexing" by the way.

I'll post more as he sends it. 

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: The Return of George
Posted by Jeph! on October 29, 2002 at 11:00:11:
In Reply to: The Return of George
posted by SKleefeld on October 28, 2002 at 08:09:28:

> I heard back from George Olshevsky this morning. I think I caught him 
totally off guard with my earlier email.

This is pretty cool.  I re-read your earlier thread ... am I correct in 
assuming that George didn't know about the MCP?  Somehow I thought he did.

I'd be interested to know what questions you originally sent him.  Any 
chance you can post the e-mail on here (or just forward it to me)?

-Jeph!
who just realized he owes Russ a transcript of his e-mails with Sean ... eeeep.

			*	*	*

Re: The Return of George
Posted by SKleefeld on October 29, 2002 at 15:56:48:
In Reply to: Re: The Return of George
posted by Jeph! on October 29, 2002 at 11:00:11:

> > I heard back from George Olshevsky this morning. I think I caught him 
totally off guard with my earlier email.

> This is pretty cool.  I re-read your earlier thread ... am I correct in 
assuming that George didn't know about the MCP?  Somehow I thought he did.

Well, he didn't specifically say one way or another. I got the impression 
that it was a total surprise.

But I've gathered also that George has pretty much dropped out of comics 
altogether (like, not even reading them!) shortly after the Indexes were 
published. In which case, it wouldn't be terribly surprising that he was 
unaware of the MCP.

> I'd be interested to know what questions you originally sent him.  Any 
chance you can post the e-mail on here (or just forward it to me)?

Nothing terribly personal, so I'll just put it here...

Greetings, George --

Some friends and I were having a discussion online about the Marvel Index 
books that you worked on so diligently, and the question came up, "What ever 
happened to George anyway?" So I did a little virtual digging to find to the 
volumes of work you've done on dinosaurs. I'm certainly glad to hear that 
you have been working on something you're quite clearly passionate about; 
far too often, those in the comic book industry are cast aside for the 
latest flavor of the month and former industry favorites are left wondering 
just what the hell happened. (Which actually sounds like what happened to 
you, but you returned to what seems to be your first love: dinosaurs.)

In any event, I have one comment and a few questions, if you have the time 
to answer them. 

First, I don't know if you're aware of this, but I'd just like to say that 
your work on the Marvel Indexes has a HUGE impact on Marvel fans, many of 
whom later went on to become professionals. Your books were the single-
handed inspiration for what has become known as the Marvel Chronology 
Project (www.chronologyproject.com) which list EVERY appearance of EVERY 
Marvel character in the order which they experienced them. The MCP, as it 
is commonly known, has become one of the most well-respected fan projects 
in existence today, and several comic book writers and artists have freely 
admitted to it being an invaluable resource. Russ Chappell, who started 
the project, has been very forthright in owing a deep debt of gratitude 
towards you. His project has grown to the point where he can no longer 
manage it entirely by himself, and several of us have begun helping chart 
out the lives of the Marvel heroes we have grown to love. I think every 
person on the MCP "Board of Directors" has also, at one time or another, 
expressed a deep appreciation of the work you started what seems a 
lifetime ago. On behalf of those of us who work on the MCP, thank you.

With regards to my questions, I'm mostly just curious how you started 
working on the Marvel Indexes. It doesn't strike me as an idea that Marvel 
would've come up with. Was it something you pitched to them directly? How 
did the project start and evolve, and where did your involvement begin? 
Were you satisfied with how the books turned out, or were there things 
you would've liked to have done differently?

Thanks again so much for all your work. I know it must seem like forever 
ago, and you probably haven't thought much about it lately, but your work 
has had a long-standing legacy that I don't think will be forgotten for 
many years to come.

Sean Kleefeld,
FFPlaza.com

I intentionally avoided questions like, "How did you go about indexing 
books?" because he already covered that in the Indexes themselves. And, 
while it does seem a bit sappy in places, I did write it in all sincerity.

> who just realized he owes Russ a transcript of his e-mails with 
Sean ... eeeep.

Hey, that won't be half as bad as Russ trying to sort through them!  :)

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: The Return of George
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 29, 2002 at 21:53:38:
In Reply to: The Return of George
posted by SKleefeld on October 28, 2002 at 08:09:28:

Great work, Sean!  I'm sure a number of us would enjoy hearing from George.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
Posted by SKleefeld on October 28, 2002 at 08:43:18:

Hey, Paul (and everyone paying attention to this extended monster 
discussion) --

I'm still trying to check through sources and such, and I thought it was 
high time I at least present some initial responses to some of you calendar 
bits. I haven't kept up with some of the other discussions, so my apologies 
in advance for any repeated info.

On the whole, it does look good and seems to work well. A few points, based 
in part on questions from Paul...

Black Panther #32-33. Haven't looked at these too closely, but it doesn't 
appear to take more than a few days. No major character crossovers, so 
current placement is fine.

Tangled Web #3 picks up right after #2. No real temporal references that 
I found initially other than it follows Spidey throughout the rest of the 
night and the following morning.

Peter Parker #34. You were looking for an explanation of the warm weather. 
Rather than saying that you should just chuck the calendar concept, how 
about a general recognition that the weather gets screwed up SO often by 
various villains and malecontents that it's not uncommon to get bouts of 
heat waves in the winter, and snowstorms in the summer? 

Black Panther #36-37 are out of continuity and shouldn't be on the calendar 
at all. (And, even if they were, they'd have to be placed 20 or 30 years 
from now.)

Fantastic Four #51-54. Franklin's perpetual seven-ness can easily be 
explained with all the times he's been pulled out of the time-stream (in 
one form or another) and dropped back in later. While I won't discount that 
he's subconsciously keeping himself young, it's not the only explanation.

Avengers #51-53 & Iron Man #50. You've got these fairly close together 
anyway, why do you have IM #50 after Avengers? I think Brevoort said at one 
point that he considered the Grell-Ryan armor debut to be in Avengers but 
is there any real, solid evidence of that?

Tigra #4 -- Although the issue speeds through qickly, Greer finishes up he 
NYPD Academy training and Steve Rogers attends her "commencment" ceremony. 
No in-story indication on how long that actually takes though. So, how 
long does it take to become a police officer? Years, I thought.

X-Factor #2 pg 13-14. I don't have the issue, but you have this entry listed 
in two separate places on your calendar. (At least the last one I looked at.)

This is just cursory analysis of some of the books. I haven't dragged out 
Ant-Man's Big Christmas or the Daredevil-Elektra-Alias books yet.

-- Sean 

			*	*	*

Re: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 28, 2002 at 20:25:10:
In Reply to: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
posted by SKleefeld on October 28, 2002 at 08:43:18:

> Hey, Paul (and everyone paying attention to this extended monster 
discussion) --

> I'm still trying to check through sources and such, and I thought it was 
high time I at least present some initial responses to some of you calendar 
bits. I haven't kept up with some of the other discussions, so my apologies 
in advance for any repeated info.

> On the whole, it does look good and seems to work well. A few points, 
based in part on questions from Paul...

> Black Panther #32-33. Haven't looked at these too closely, but it doesn't 
appear to take more than a few days. No major character crossovers, so 
current placement is fine.

Thanks.

> Tangled Web #3 picks up right after #2. No real temporal references that 
I found initially other than it follows Spidey throughout the rest of the 
night and the following morning.

Great.  Antonio promised to follow up with more Tangled Wen chronology.

> Peter Parker #34. You were looking for an explanation of the warm weather. 
Rather than saying that you should just chuck the calendar concept, how 
about a general recognition that the weather gets screwed up SO often by 
various villains and malecontents that it's not uncommon to get bouts of 
heat waves in the winter, and snowstorms in the summer? 

That's actually not hard to swallow.  As many times as weather patterns 
have been manipulated in the MU, it's no wonder that natural meteorology 
would be messed up on a long-term basis.

> Black Panther #36-37 are out of continuity and shouldn't be on the 
calendar at all. (And, even if they were, they'd have to be placed 20 or 
30 years from now.)

Noted.  Thanks.

> Fantastic Four #51-54. Franklin's perpetual seven-ness can easily be 
explained with all the times he's been pulled out of the time-stream (in 
one form or another) and dropped back in later. While I won't discount that 
he's subconsciously keeping himself young, it's not the only explanation.

Yep, but we'd also have to explain why no one in the MU seems to notice or 
care.

> Avengers #51-53 & Iron Man #50. You've got these fairly close together 
anyway, why do you have IM #50 after Avengers? I think Brevoort said at one 
point that he considered the Grell-Ryan armor debut to be in Avengers but is 
there any real, solid evidence of that?

I'm taking Brevoort's word for it, and I thought we had accepted that a 
while back.  Further thoughts?

> Tigra #4 -- Although the issue speeds through qickly, Greer finishes up 
he NYPD Academy training and Steve Rogers attends her "commencment" ceremony. 
No in-story indication on how long that actually takes though. So, how long 
does it take to become a police officer? Years, I thought.

Hmm.  Anyone know how long it takes to go through the NYPD academy in the 
real world?  I've found reference to another program taking 21 weeks to 
finish.

> X-Factor #2 pg 13-14. I don't have the issue, but you have this entry 
listed in two separate places on your calendar. (At least the last one I 
looked at.)

Hmm.  I'll check on this.  Probably a case of copying instead of cutting.

> This is just cursory analysis of some of the books. I haven't dragged out 
Ant-Man's Big Christmas or the Daredevil->Elektra-Alias books yet.

Save yourself some time with Ant-Man's Big Christmas by following an earlier 
thread first.

Thanks, Sean!

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
Posted by SKleefeld on October 29, 2002 at 08:26:54:
In Reply to: Re: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 28, 2002 at 20:25:10:

> > Avengers #51-53 & Iron Man #50. You've got these fairly close together 
anyway, why do you have IM #50 after Avengers? I think Brevoort said at one 
point that he considered the Grell-Ryan armor debut to be in Avengers but is 
there any real, solid evidence of that?

> I'm taking Brevoort's word for it, and I thought we had accepted that a 
while back.  Further thoughts?

Only that we conclusively proved that he couldn't have been right on another 
IM armor issue. Not that I think he's lying or doesn't know what he's 
talking about; just that additional evidence that he wasn't aware of got 
introduced. (I don't recall the specifics, but I think it had something to 
do with IM appearing at Cap's funeral.)

> > Tigra #4 -- Although the issue speeds through qickly, Greer finishes up 
he NYPD Academy training and Steve Rogers attends her "commencment" ceremony. 
No in-story indication on how long that actually takes though. So, how long 
does it take to become a police officer? Years, I thought.

> Hmm.  Anyone know how long it takes to go through the NYPD academy in the 
real world?  I've found reference to another program taking 21 weeks to 
finish.

I couldn't find anything on the NYPD specifically, but there are several 
other Police Academies I found that require a 600-650 hours of training. That 
roughly translates to 17 weeks, assuming you spend 40 hours per week in 
classes. I found at least one Academy that did have a night-class version 
available over the course of 34 weeks. (Don't know why I thought it was so 
much longer than that.)

Also, for your calendar, the NYPD has a once-a-year initial filing deadline. 
This year, it was 9/13 and I would assume that it's about the middle of 
September every year. And the written exam evidently has a completion date 
sometime in October. (There's no evident correlation with the Academy's 
classes, however.)

> Save yourself some time with Ant-Man's Big Christmas by following an 
earlier thread first.

Saw parts of that thread, which is why I wasn't about to look at that one 
until I had enough time to really get into it.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
Posted by Jeph! on October 29, 2002 at 09:15:27:
In Reply to: Re: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
posted by SKleefeld on October 29, 2002 at 08:26:54:

> > > Avengers #51-53 & Iron Man #50. You've got these fairly close together 
anyway, why do you have IM #50 after Avengers? I think Brevoort said at one 
point that he considered the Grell-Ryan armor debut to be in Avengers but is 
there any real, solid evidence of that?

> > I'm taking Brevoort's word for it, and I thought we had accepted that a 
while back.  Further thoughts?

> Only that we conclusively proved that he couldn't have been right on 
another IM armor issue. Not that I think he's lying or doesn't know what 
he's talking about; just that additional evidence that he wasn't aware of 
got introduced. (I don't recall the specifics, but I think it had something 
to do with IM appearing at Cap's funeral.)

I don't recall that having to do with anything -- IM is wearing his ugly 
suit at Cap's funeral.  However, IM3 #50 is a stand-alone story (with a 
Christmas reference that I guess, all around, doesn't work).  Placing it 
just BEFORE the Kang War Proper, or AFTER the whole mess, is pretty much a 
matter of personal preference.

I think it's agreed, though, that IM3 #51-up get placed after the Kang War, 
and IM3 #49-back get placed before.  #50 is on the fence, with no real 
determining factors (save -- heh -- publication order).

Are there any references in IM3 #51-up to the amount of time that passed 
since #50?  If #50 was "just last week", then we probably SHOULD put it 
after the Kang War, given that the "occupation" phase of the War takes 
three weeks or so.

If there AREN'T any time references, are there any in-story references to 
IM's Grell armor being "new" or "untested"?  If so, we should probably put 
it BEFORE the Kang War, since his Grell armor got quite a workout in A3 
#52-55.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
Posted by SKleefeld on October 29, 2002 at 16:03:25:
In Reply to: Re: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
posted by Jeph! on October 29, 2002 at 09:15:27:

> I don't recall that having to do with anything -- IM is wearing his ugly 
suit at Cap's funeral. 

Sorry, I don't think I made myself clear. IIRC, the issue with IM at Cap's 
funeral was used to debunk Tom's idea that CA3 #50 came after the Kang War 
was completed. Which couldn't have happened because Tony switched to the 
Grell-Ryan somewhere in the middle of the Kang War, so CA3 #50 would have 
to happen BEFORE the Kang War ends.

I was just using that as an example that Tom isn't infalible. (Sorry, Tom!)

> However, IM3 #50 is a stand-alone story (with a Christmas reference that I 
guess, all around, doesn't work).  Placing it just BEFORE the Kang War Proper, 
or AFTER the whole mess, is pretty much a matter of personal preference.

> I think it's agreed, though, that IM3 #51-up get placed after the Kang War, 
and IM3 #49-back get placed before.  #50 is on the fence, with no real 
determining factors (save -- heh -- publication order).

> Are there any references in IM3 #51-up to the amount of time that passed 
since #50?  If #50 was "just last week", then we probably SHOULD put it 
after the Kang War, given that the "occupation" phase of the War takes three 
weeks or so.

> If there AREN'T any time references, are there any in-story references to 
IM's Grell armor being "new" or "untested"?  If so, we should probably put 
it BEFORE the Kang War, since his Grell armor got quite a workout in A3 
#52-55.

That's all I was questioning: whether we'd actualy analyzed this stuff or we 
were just taking  Tom at his intentions.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
Posted by Jeph! on October 29, 2002 at 19:37:32:
In Reply to: Re: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
posted by SKleefeld on October 29, 2002 at 16:03:25:

> Sorry, I don't think I made myself clear. IIRC, the issue with IM at Cap's 
funeral was used to debunk Tom's idea that CA3 #50 came after the Kang War 
was completed. Which couldn't have happened because Tony switched to the 
Grell-Ryan somewhere in the middle of the Kang War, so CA3 #50 would have 
to happen BEFORE the Kang War ends.

> I was just using that as an example that Tom isn't infalible. (Sorry, Tom!)

Yep -- actually, I remembered that about an hour after I posted.  I would 
have posted to correct myself, but .... so lazy.  Good thing you came along 
and did it for me!

Yep, that's a very good example of how Tom is falliable -- because he doesn't 
read every last book in the Marvel line, his notions of where things should 
fit -- while correct from HIS perspective -- can't always be reconciled with 
the larger picture.

On the other hand, there's really not much wrong with Tom's notion about 
IM3 #50.  How far do we go in respecting creator intent, here?  Always, 
unless he's wrong?  Never, because he was wrong once?  Neither?

My beloved "publication order" doesn't help much either -- IM 3 #50 was 
published one week before A3 #50 -- and we're trying to fit it before A3 
#46, or after A3 #54 -- four issues' difference in either direction.  It's 
not "obviously closer" to #46 than it is to #54...

> That's all I was questioning: whether we'd actualy analyzed this stuff 
or we were just taking  Tom at his intentions.

Well, sad to say, I don't own the book, so I can't -- and therefore haven't -- 
analyzed it.  Paul seems to be going simply by Tom's word -- he doesn't seem 
to quote any in-book temporal references in his placement.  Perhaps he hasn't 
deeply analyzed it either.

I guess that leaves it up to you, Sean, to provide evidence for an alternate 
placement.  Sorry I can't be of more help on this one... :(

-Jeph!
now with 20% less usefulness!

			*	*	*

Re: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 30, 2002 at 21:48:59:
In Reply to: Re: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
posted by SKleefeld on October 29, 2002 at 16:03:25:

> > Are there any references in IM3 #51-up to the amount of time that passed 
since #50?  If #50 was "just last week", then we probably SHOULD put it after 
the Kang War, given that the "occupation" phase of the War takes three weeks 
or so.

> > If there AREN'T any time references, are there any in-story references 
to IM's Grell armor being "new" or "untested"?  If so, we should probably 
put it BEFORE the Kang War, since his Grell armor got quite a workout in 
A3 #52-55.

The Kang War proper occurs from A3 46 through A3 54.  Tony appears in the 
pre-Grell/Ryan armor at the beginning of this arc, and ends up with it on 
at the end of the arc.  I think it's doubtful that the events of IM3 50 
happened in the middle of the Kang War proper.  Even though time permits it, 
it's unlikely that Tony would be throwing a soiree (IM3 50) in the midst of 
the Kang chaos.  Thus, since Tony appears in Grell/Ryan armor in IM3 50, I 
would place that issue after the Kang War proper.

So I'd say Tom was right in this case.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
Posted by Jeph! on October 30, 2002 at 22:40:57:
In Reply to: Re: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 30, 2002 at 21:48:59:

> The Kang War proper occurs from A3 46 through A3 54.  Tony appears in the 
pre-Grell/Ryan armor at the beginning of this arc, and ends up with it on 
at the end of the arc.

This, as far as I can remember, is not true.  Tony appeared in A3 #45 (which 
I still consider part of the "Kang War Proper") on a monitor, with an 
unidentifiable mask lying in the background.  It WASN'T the "ugly" mask.  
It's just "a mask", one of many he was tinkering with.

The next time we see Tony's armor, it's A3 #52, and it's the Grell/Ryan 
stuff.

Now, Tony DID appear in his "ugly" suit in IM3 #46-48, and those tie into 
other issues as discussed before.  But none of those issues tie into A3 
#45-54 -- in fact, they tie into A:UI, which we've placed BEFORE A3 #45.

> it's unlikely that Tony would be throwing a soiree (IM3 50) in the midst 
of the Kang chaos.

I agree with this logic ... but it's based on a now-faulty premise.  Nothing 
ties IM3 #50 definitively into the "Kang War chaos".  Currently there's a 
large "calm before the storm"-type slot open in-between A:UI and A3 #45, 
and based on what I said above, IM3 #50 COULD fit in there.

> So I'd say Tom was right in this case.

He could very well be -- and I don't care much either way.  But, for 
"devil's-advocacy", so far nothing you've said PROVES that it has to be 
after the Kang War.

Which is why I asked about timeline references in this or other issues.  
Anything in IM3 #53-54, where the psychotic cyborg lady from #50 returns?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 31, 2002 at 21:39:27:
In Reply to: Re: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
posted by Jeph! on October 30, 2002 at 22:40:57:

> > The Kang War proper occurs from A3 46 through A3 54.  Tony appears in the 
pre-Grell/Ryan armor at the beginning of this arc, and ends up with it on at 
the end of the arc.

> This, as far as I can remember, is not true.  Tony appeared in A3 #45 
(which I still consider part of the "Kang War Proper") on a monitor, with 
an unidentifiable mask lying in the background.  It WASN'T the "ugly" mask.  
It's just "a mask", one of many he was tinkering with.

> The next time we see Tony's armor, it's A3 #52, and it's the Grell/Ryan 
stuff.

Yup, you're right.  Tony was sans armor during the majority of the Kang War 
proper (until A3 52), but this makes me think, if he had the Grell/Ryan 
armor previous to this, shouldn't we have seen him in it during this time?  
Sure, Tony was fighting the battle as scientist (as pointed out in A3 45, 
he had no time to "suit up"), but it still seems strange that there was no 
sight of the Grell/Ryan armor at all until A3 52.

> Now, Tony DID appear in his "ugly" suit in IM3 #46-48, and those tie into 
other issues as discussed before.  But none of those issues tie into A3 
#45-54 -- in fact, they tie into A:UI, which we've placed BEFORE A3 #45.

> > it's unlikely that Tony would be throwing a soiree (IM3 50) in the 
midst of the Kang chaos.

> I agree with this logic ... but it's based on a now-faulty premise.  
Nothing ties IM3 #50 definitively into the "Kang War chaos".  Currently 
there's a large "calm before the storm"-type slot open in-between A:UI and 
A3 #45, and based on what I said above, IM3 #50 COULD fit in there.

I see.  You're wondering if IM3 50 might occur between CA3 50/6 and A3 45.  
But if IM3 50 occurred before A3 45, it seems odd that the Iron Man mask 
shown with him in A3 45 was *not* Grell/Ryan, especially in a panel in 
which he's stating that he hasn't had time to suit up as Iron Man.  I 
think if the intention was that his current armor was Grell/Ryan at that 
point, they would've shown the Grell/Ryan helmet in that panel.

> > So I'd say Tom was right in this case.

> He could very well be -- and I don't care much either way.  But, for 
"devil's-advocacy", so far nothing you've said PROVES that it has to be 
after the Kang War.

Nothing you've shown proves IM3 50 doesn't happen after.  I think, given 
the above, it's "cleaner," from the character's perspective, to have IM3 
50 after the Kang War proper.

> Which is why I asked about timeline references in this or other issues.  
Anything in IM3 #53-54, where the psychotic cyborg lady from #50 returns?

There are no temporal references, unfortunately, to place IM3 50 a specific 
amount of time before IM3 53-54.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
Posted by SKleefeld on October 31, 2002 at 22:10:13:
In Reply to: Re: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 31, 2002 at 21:39:27:

Good points, Paul. I just wanted to ensure we've got some logic behind the 
decision, since there's nothing conclusive in the stories to go one way or 
another.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
Posted by Jeph! on November 01, 2002 at 14:09:15:
In Reply to: Re: Punching holes in Paul B's calendar
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 31, 2002 at 21:39:27:

> I see.  You're wondering if IM3 50 might occur between CA3 50/6 and A3 45.

I'm just bringing the possibility up, yes.

> But if IM3 50 occurred before A3 45, it seems odd that the Iron Man mask 
shown with him in A3 45 was *not* Grell/Ryan, especially in a panel in 
which he's stating that he hasn't had time to suit up as Iron Man.

That's interesting logic.  It could work.

> I think if the intention was that his current armor was Grell/Ryan at that 
point, they would've shown the Grell/Ryan helmet in that panel.

Well, A3 #45 came out five months before IM3 #50 -- the artist would have 
had no idea what the Grell-Ryan armor would have looked like, even if Kurt 
had SPECIFIED which suit to draw.

I do agree, though, that the fact that it WASN'T the "ugly" helmet might 
tell us something.  And what I take from that is that, between A3 #45-51, 
where we see Tony without armor, he's ditched the "ugly" suit and is in the 
process of building the Grell/Ryan stuff.  Hence the helmet in A3 #45, which 
we can take as some sort of prototype or early model.

> Nothing you've shown proves IM3 50 doesn't happen after.  I think, given 
the above, it's "cleaner," from the character's perspective, to have IM3 50 
after the Kang War proper.

I wasn't trying to prove one side or the other -- I just wanted to point 
out faults in YOUR earlier proof.  But now, like I said, I'm satisfied with 
the logic behind the placement.

Given the above rationales, and given Tom Brevoort's position on things, I'm 
now convinced.  Thanks for working it through to its bitter end with me, 
Paul.  I like to be sure about things like this, things that could go either 
way.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Great Site
Posted by Dale Brackett on October 30, 2002 at 10:39:06:

Hi: I just wanted to say that this is a fantastic site. It has really helped 
me in knowing where a characters next appearance occurs. I have been a Marvel 
collector for over 30 years now, and I want to thank everyone involved in 
this project. By the way, is there going to be an update anytime soon.

			*	*	*

Cameos in Thunderbolts #53?
Posted by Sean Curtin on October 30, 2002 at 11:17:52:

In Hawkeye's Seagate Prison scene in TB 53, there's several villains who 
appear out of costume.  Tombstone, the Toad, Tenpin and Ammo seem to be in 
one panel, and someone who looks like Headlok in the next, but I can't 
identify any of the others.  Since Headlok is present, one of the generic 
black men seen from behind could conceivably be Cottonmouth, setting up the 
Chain Gang subplot.  And I'm really reaching here, but a figure whose head 
is obscured by a spech balloon kind of looks like he has the Owl's hairstyle.  
Any ideas on who else could be identified in this scene?

--
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Shang-Chi, et al. chronology
Posted by Gary M. Miller on October 31, 2002 at 00:01:35:

Russ & co.--

I've noticed a severe mischronologization (is that even a word?) for many 
of the cast members of the MOKF title (likely, principally, Shang-Chi, Fu 
Manchu, Fah Lo Suee, Denis Nayland Smith, Dr. Petrie, Clive Reston, Black 
Jack Tarr, and Leiko Wu).  Right now I'm about halfway through reading the 
run.  I'll make tons of notes along the way and work up a new chronology 
that takes into account many of the flashback sequences that aren't even 
remotely referenced (i.e. those in MOKF 100 that reference Nayland Smith's 
romance with Fah Lo Suee, or MOKF 26, with the first meeting between Shang-
Chi and Fah Lo Suee), plus I think I'd take the liberty to rearrange 
placement of a few of the Giant-Size issues, and the string of fill-in 
stories in the #50's, as, I feel, a few are severely misplaced.  Of course, 
if anyone has their theories as to what fits where, feel free to email me 
privately.  Or, if you know that a story definitively fits somewhere, let 
me know that too...i.e. if there are any major sources the info's been 
gleaned from (I know there should be definite placements for books like 
GSSM 2 and M/TU 84-85, as noted in the Official Marvel Index to The Amazing 
Spider-Man, and TOMIT Marvel-Team-Up, respectively).

Best,

-Gary

			*	*	*

Re: Shang-Chi, et al. chronology
Posted by Shy Guy on November 13, 2002 at 18:25:31:
In Reply to: Shang-Chi, et al. chronology
posted by Gary M. Miller on October 31, 2002 at 00:01:35:

Your post raises an interesting question for this project.  Pardon me if I 
have some of the details wrong, but even if that is the case, the general 
principle is still worth discussing.

It is my understanding that when Marvel gave up/lost the license to the Sax 
Rohmer characters, Fu Manchu (and perhaps all the original Rohmer characters) 
was essentially retconned out of the MU.  Unless I'm mistaken, Shang Chi is 
now the son of the Yellow Claw.

What does this mean vis a vis Fu Manchu's presence in the MCP?  If the 
character never existed in the current version of MU history, should he 
even have an entry on this site?  After all, none of his appearances remain 
canonical.

Given how long this project has been around and how thoughtful most of you 
are, I'm sure this type of question has been discussed before.  Sorry if it 
is old rehash.  But I'm curious how major retcons are handled, especially 
one that would wipe a character out of canon in toto.  Does their entry and 
prior analysis remain or are they unceremoniously deleted?

Shy Guy

			*	*	*

HAROKIN...HATE-MONGER...HAYWIRE
Posted by Arthur Stein on October 31, 2002 at 20:10:12:

New entries marked **

HAROKIN [ASGARDIAN]
T 133/2
**T 251
**DEF 66
DEF 67
**DEF 68
T 313/2
T 350
A 249-BTS
T 351
T 352
T 358
T 360
T 361
T 362
T 365
T 366
**NM 83

HATE-MONGER (almost didn't include this, but...what the heck)   
The MCP lists several Hate-Mongers. Notwithstanding that Hate-Monger II  
seems to perish in outer space from lack of oxygen, I submit  that  
HATE-MONGER/"ADOLF HITLER" ,  HATE-MONGER II  and HATE-MONGER III in COTL 35 
are the same.

 In COTL 35 , Hate-monger III says ..For I grow weary of defeat!. Thrice! 
The first time due to the Fantastic Four and Nick Fury --  <ref FF 21> --and 
the second and third times -- due solely to the verdammt  Fury himself I 
have known defeat. NASA now occupies my orbiting space station.  <ref NFAOS 
9-11>. 

Note use of the germanic verdammt and later he exclaims Himmel! He also 
references his universal hate-ray, which was on the space station in 
NFAOS 11 (a more powerful model than the plain hate-ray of FF 21)

By his own speech he is connected. As to his survivalsI leave those to the 
theorists. Nick Fury seems to believe strongly in stand-in doubles 
conveniently there at times of disaster, but we all know there are a myriad 
number of ways for writers to resurrect characters who appear to be dead.

If the three are blended.

HATE-MONGER/"ADOLF HITLER"
SVTU 17-FB
FF 21
(and from HATE-MONGER II)
+NFAOS 9
+NFAOS 10
+NFAOS 11
(and from HATE-MONGER III/Man-Beast)
+COTL 35
HTD 14
SVTU 16
SVTU 17
CA 299
CA 446-FB
CA 445-BTS
CA 446
CA3 25
CA3 26
CA3 27

HAYWIRE/
Q 14
**Q 17
**Q 19
**Q 27
A3 5

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece 
of information engineering!
