The first Hercules limited series
Posted by Grant Di Palma on November 01, 2002 at 10:26:34:

Does anyone know why the Hercules limited series from the 80s, I guess the 
only one he ever had, is not included in the Key section of the MCP?  Or in 
the appearance entries for the character himself?  Was that limited series 
later excluded from continuity for some reason?

			*	*	*

Re: The first Hercules limited series
Posted by ShadZ on November 01, 2002 at 11:41:06:
In Reply to: The first Hercules limited series
posted by Grant Di Palma on November 01, 2002 at 10:26:34:

The (1982) Hercules limited series was set in the future -- not a long time 
in the future, just 10 or 20 years.  That fact wasn't obvious on reading the 
series itself, but was in all the publicity, etc.  There was a sequel mini-
series in 1983 that took advantage of the future thing to do a more serious 
storyline that killed off most of the Olympian gods.

So, like all stories set in the future featuring future versions of 
characters, the two Hercules minis are not included MCP.  I suppose someday 
this "Hercules future" may get its own section of the MCP (like the Killraven/
Guardians of the Galaxy future and the 2099 future have), but then again it 
may not, since it only apperaed in the two Hercules minis and a story in 
Marvel Comics Presents  -- what's to index?

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Re: The first Hercules limited series
Posted by Grant Di Palma on November 01, 2002 at 12:13:10:
In Reply to: Re: The first Hercules limited series
posted by ShadZ on November 01, 2002 at 11:41:06:

Thank you very much for that clarification, ShadZ.  I love this stuff.

			*	*	*

Re: The first Hercules limited series
Posted by ShadZ on November 01, 2002 at 20:30:03:
In Reply to: Re: The first Hercules limited series
posted by Grant Di Palma on November 01, 2002 at 12:13:10:

You're welcome.  Sorry I got some of the details wrong...

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Re: The first Hercules limited series
Posted by Peter Fabricius on November 01, 2002 at 13:14:39:
In Reply to: Re: The first Hercules limited series
posted by ShadZ on November 01, 2002 at 11:41:06:

> The (1982) Hercules limited series was set in the future -- not a long 
time in the future, just 10 or 20 years.  That fact wasn't obvious on 
reading the series itself, but was in all the publicity, etc.  There was 
a sequel mini-series in 1983 that took advantage of the future thing to do 
a more serious storyline that killed off most of the Olympian gods.

> So, like all stories set in the future featuring future versions of 
characters, the two Hercules minis are not included MCP.  I suppose someday 
this "Hercules future" may get its own section of the MCP (like the Killraven/
Guardians of the Galaxy future and the 2099 future have), but then again it 
may not, since it only apperaed in the two Hercules minis and a story in 
Marvel Comics Presents  -- what's to index?

Just a couple of things.

The second mini series is set in 2385, and states in the first issue that 
it takes place 41 years after the first. It is on page 8.

There was also a graphic novel, Hercules Prince of Power: Full Circle, set 
between the second mini and the 3-part story in Marvel Comics Presents.

Peter

			*	*	*

Re: The first Hercules limited series
Posted by Arthur Stein on November 01, 2002 at 18:39:55:
In Reply to: Re: The first Hercules limited series
posted by Peter Fabricius on November 01, 2002 at 13:14:39:

There's also a a yarn in Marvel Tales 197, backup to the spidey reprint that 
features Hercules in the 24th century. Referred to there as the 'last survivor 
of the gods of Olympus'

Arthur

			*	*	*

Marvel Mystery Comics #9
Posted by Grant Di Palma on November 02, 2002 at 12:51:09:

I noticed some scenes of the battle between Namor and the Human Torch were 
painted by Alex Ross in the Marvels limited series, but I dont see the 
original issue that story appeared in listed in the appearances for Namor 
or the original Human Torch.  Anyone know why  (For some reason the apostrophe 
and question mark are not working on my keyboard.)

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Mystery Comics #9
Posted by Spirit of 76 on November 05, 2002 at 12:41:27:
In Reply to: Marvel Mystery Comics #9
posted by Grant Di Palma on November 02, 2002 at 12:51:09:

The accepted, Golden Age appearances are difficult to determine, and are 
even more difficult to agree upon.  However, the events in Marvel Mystey 
Comics #8 and 9, which detail the first epic fight between Sub-Mariner and 
the Human Torch, have long been accepted into modern Marvel continuity. The 
inclusion of Marvel Mystery Comics #10 in the Sub-Mariner chronology supports 
this, since issue #10 was merely a wrap-up of the previous two issues. 

I have spending quite a bit of time in recent years, trying to chronicle the 
Golden Age canon.  It is no small feat, let me tell you!

Spirit of 76

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Mystery Comics #9
Posted by Grant Di Palma on November 12, 2002 at 20:50:27:
In Reply to: Re: Marvel Mystery Comics #9
posted by Spirit of 76 on November 05, 2002 at 12:41:27:

Thanks a lot for clearing that up.  I haven't had a chance to read it until 
today.

			*	*	*

Multiverse Madness!
Posted by Grant Di Palma on November 02, 2002 at 14:21:04:
In Reply to: Re: Multiverse Madness! 
posted by Paul O'Brien on October 15, 2002 at 20:35:44:

> On the multiverse point, logically it's possible to write crossovers 
between any two fictional universes as long as the writers agree. If Marvel 
and DC say that the Marvel Vs DC and Access miniseries are in canon - and 
they do - then they must be right.

> Oddly enough, I think I'm right in saying that the only intercompany 
crossover to take place in the course of an ongoing Marvel series was the 
thirteenth issues of the Heroes Reborn titles, which formed a crossover 
guest starring characters from Earth-WildStorm.

But if you read the first interview Comic Book Resources did with Kurt Busiek 
and others when the new JLA/Avengers crossover was announced, Busiek said 
that they don't want to recognize the Marvel vs. DC series as the first 
encounter between members of the two teams anymore. This is because Busiek 
is concerned that it didn't depict any dramatic social reactions in the 
characters' first meetings, since the situation focused immediately on the 
fighting, and that would take away from the effect of the new crossover, 
which would go into more depth.

			*	*	*

Re: Multiverse Madness!
Posted by Jeph! on November 02, 2002 at 15:39:07:
In Reply to: Multiverse Madness!
posted by Grant Di Palma on November 02, 2002 at 14:21:04:

So, you're saying that, as far as "JLA/Avengers" is concerned, "DC vs. Marvel" 
didn't happen?  And the teams are meeting for the "first time"?

Interesting.  I wonder how hard it would be to logically place all inter-
company crossovers into a timeline, given the contradictions like this that 
pop up.

Then again, we have yet to see if JLA/Avengers is set in the present-day, and 
the particulars of the meeting (are they in separate universes?  The "same" 
universe?).  If we were so inclined, we probably COULD make both DC vs. 
Marvel and JLA/Avengers canon.  A simple "every time the characters from a 
universe meet, they forget about it after the adventure is over" rule could 
be hypothesized that would clear up any inconsistencies.

Wolverine and Elektra have "met for the first time" twice as well, and no big 
problems have come of it...

-Jeph!
then again, probably NONE of this will make it into THE MCP anyway...

			*	*	*

HEADLOK...HEALER...HEIMDALL
Posted by Arthur Stein on November 04, 2002 at 10:21:40:

new entries marked **

HEADLOK/MURRAY SINGLETON
**WCA2 10
AF 92-BTS
AF 93-FB
AF 93
AF 94
AF 104-FB
AF 102
**AF 103
AF 104
TB 55

HEALER
UX 212
**UX 254
UX 291-FB
UX 291

HEIMDALL [ASGARDIAN]
JIM 104/2
**JIM 105/2
JIM 101/2
**T@ 5
T 127/2
JIM -1
JIM 85
**JIM 88
JIM 92
JIM 94
JIM 95
JIM 101
JIM 104
JIM 108
JIM 110
**JIM 113
JIM 125
. . . . . . .               
T 248
**T 254
T 267
. . . . . . .       
DAZZ 16
**T 320
T 321             
T 322
T 324/2
T 326/2
**H2 279
T 327

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if 
I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or 
comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of 
information engineering!

			*	*	*

Added Scenes in the "Havok & Wolverine: Meltdown" TPB!
Posted by Jeph! on November 04, 2002 at 20:56:06:

I finally tracked down the elusive TPB of Epic Comics' "Meltdown" series ($20 
on eBay!), and I was amazed to find that it contained some NEW scenes!

In total, six pages were added to the book -- all double-page spreads, for a 
total of three new scenes.  They look like they were painted by the original 
creative team, and they add nothing of consequence -- so I'm assuming that 
they were simply pages dropped from the original books for space reasons.

Scene #1 takes place just after the final page of H&W:M #2, where Havok is 
kidnapped by Scarlett and flown away.  Wolvie shouts after him, but he can't 
hear him.  The book ends with Havok's plane flying away.  The new scene is a 
double-page spread of Wolverine, continuing to yell "Alex!", long after his 
plane has flown away.

It doesn't really add anything of substance, but it is an extra scene -- one 
that shows that, long after Havok was out of range, Wolvie kept on yelling.

Scene #2 takes place between pp. 12-13 of H&W:M #4, and is a two-panel splash 
page of the desert.  That's it.  The desert.  No characters, and the only 
added dialogue is mood-setting narration, unrelated to any character.  It's 
basically an establishing shot for the upcoming scenes, and it adds nothing 
to any character's chronology.

Scene #3 takes place between pages 14-15 of H&W:M #4, and bridges the time 
cut between those pages.  It shows Havok and Scarlett McKenzie cautiously 
entering the reactor -- Scarlett gets the idea to take a radiation suit off 
a dead guard, which we see her wearing on p.15 of the issue.

So, new chronologies for the characters involved should look like this:

HAVOK / ALEX SUMMERS
...
M/CP 31
H&W:M 1
H&W:M 2
H&W:M 3
H&W:M 4
* H&W:M TPB
H&W:M 4
UX 246
...

MCKENZIE, SCARLETT
H&W:M 1
H&W:M 2
H&W:M 3
H&W:M 4
* H&W:M TPB
H&W:M 4
XF 112
...

WOLVERINE / JAMES HOWLETT / "LOGAN" / "PATCH"
...
M/CP 31
H&W:M 1
H&W:M 2
* H&W:M TPB
H&W:M 3
H&W:M 4
M/CP 40-FB
...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Added Scenes in the "Havok & Wolverine: Meltdown" TPB!
Posted by Andy Holcombe on November 04, 2002 at 21:55:26:
In Reply to: Added Scenes in the "Havok & Wolverine: Meltdown" TPB!
posted by Jeph! on November 04, 2002 at 20:56:06:

Not Again.

			*	*	*

That's right!
Posted by Jeph! on November 04, 2002 at 22:55:03:
In Reply to: Re: Added Scenes in the "Havok & Wolverine: Meltdown" TPB!
posted by Andy Holcombe on November 04, 2002 at 21:55:26:

Yep -- again.

This is why I think there needs to be a resource somewhere for this sort of 
information!

(For example, even though the book added six pages in, it somehow dropped out 
the dialogue from Dr. Meltdown's computer in issue #3.  So you need to own 
both the TPB and issue #3 to have the whole story.  That or a color copier 
and some glue-stick.)

I'm compiling a list of things like this right now -- maybe I can BE that 
resource.

Next up: the added page in the "Cable and the New Mutants" TPB...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Captain America #7 preview
Posted by Spirit of 76 on November 06, 2002 at 12:27:30:

I just perused the first few pages of Cap #7 to be released in December, and 
as shown on the Marvel.com website, and noticed Steve mentioning 6 or 7 (now 
I can't remember) months having passed since he gave up his secret identity 
and 4 months since moving from Avengers mansion.

I know there have been lively discussions on dating the recent Cap stories.  
How does this tie in?  

Any comments?

Lurker and infrequent post-er,
Spirit of 76

			*	*	*

Status?
Posted by Jhaeman on November 06, 2002 at 14:32:36:

I'm just curious about how the MCP is progressing overall.  Are we keeping 
up with current books okay?  Any more work needed on the infamous Gap?--I'm 
not sure if the list of books people could contribute to has been updated 
in a while.

			*	*	*

Re: Status?
Posted by Administrator on November 06, 2002 at 16:58:08:
In Reply to: Status?
posted by Jhaeman on November 06, 2002 at 14:32:36:

I have about a hundred books in the next update. I've spent weeks analyzing 
Infinity Crusade. As far as the list of books available on the Closing the 
Gap page, the only reasons to update it would be if

1) I discover more books in the Gap, or

2) Someone contributes an analysis.

There are a couple of new contributions, but not many. For the time being, 
that's where efforts need to be concentrated. If anyone can contribute an 
analysis for a book that's not currently claimed on the Closing the Gap 
page, please post something.

			*	*	*

Re: Status?
Posted by Jeph! on November 06, 2002 at 20:33:23:
In Reply to: Re: Status?
posted by Administrator on November 06, 2002 at 16:58:08:

Well, there's some sort of glitch on the CTG page  that prevents me from 
claiming the entire Gambit (v3) series -- the link takes me instead to this 
board -- but I have been, and am continuing on, a slow analysis of the 
entire run of the book.  I think the last thing I posted here was issues 
#6-7 and the 1999 Annual (and that was a looong time ago), but I've got 
more on the way.

So, combine that with my ongoing analysis of all the Marvel UK Captain 
Britain books, and my now-alleged participation in the Kang War Calendar 
thread, and that's what's on my MCP plate these days.

Russ, if you wouldn't mind manually "claiming" the Gambit series for me, 
I'd appreciate it.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Status?
Posted by Administrator on November 07, 2002 at 18:03:53:
In Reply to: Re: Status?
posted by Jeph! on November 06, 2002 at 20:33:23:

It's not really a glitch. There are a number of books from the Gap that I 
would prefer be posted to the board, rather than sent in my email. You can 
send it in by email if you're too shy to post on the board. Along those 
lines, here's another thing I've been doing. Cleaning up the Posting Board. 
Over the past month, I've moved about eight months of posts to the archives, 
and as I've done so, I've tried to make sure that the MCP proper reflects 
the analyses and corrections that have been posted in that time. I've added 
those Gambits you spoke of, and just this past weekend, I added the next 
ten issues of Captain Britain. All for the next update...

			*	*	*

Re: Status?
Posted by Jeph! on November 07, 2002 at 20:32:38:
In Reply to: Re: Status?
posted by Administrator on November 07, 2002 at 18:03:53:

> It's not really a glitch. There are a number of books from the Gap that I 
would prefer be posted to the board, rather than sent in my email.

Ah ha!  Well, I was planning to post them here anyway, so that's perfect.

> You can send it in by email if you're too shy to post on the board.

I know you said that for everyone else's benefit, but...

Me?  Shy?  Afraid to post?  ::laughs evilly for a far-longer-than-appropriate 
time::

"And the award for Most Feet In Mouth goes to..."

> Along those lines, here's another thing I've been doing. Cleaning up the 
Posting Board. Over the past month, I've moved about eight months of posts 
to the archives

Noticed that.

> I've added those Gambits you spoke of, and just this past weekend, I added 
the next ten issues of Captain Britain.

Great!  This is good news.  By the way, I know I buried quite a few random 
corrections on other books in those Gambit posts -- were you able to update 
ALL the things I pointed out, or did you restrict yourself to just 
incorporating the "Gambit" books?

If my next Gambit post involves that many ancillary corrections, I plan to 
collect them and post them separately -- or, at least, in their own 
section -- as opposed to "scattered in the middle of the write-up" like those 
posts were.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Status?
Posted by Administrator on November 08, 2002 at 13:26:34:
In Reply to: Re: Status?
posted by Jeph! on November 07, 2002 at 20:32:38:

> By the way, I know I buried quite a few random corrections on other books 
in those Gambit posts -- were you able to update ALL the things I pointed out, 
or did you restrict yourself to just incorporating the "Gambit" books?

If the message was posted in one of the archived months, or if the message 
was part of a thread that began in one of the archived months, then I read 
the message carefully, and made all of the adjustments that I a) felt were 
necessary; b) agreed with and/or c) had enough information to proceed. For 
instance, some messages would say that Character "A" appears in Cable #37. 
Well, without a complete analysis of Cable #37, I'm not going to add one 
character's appearance.

Offhand, I can't remember if any of your messages fell into that category, 
but if it met the three criteria above, I've updated the Project accordingly.

			*	*	*

Re: Status?
Posted by Jhaeman on November 08, 2002 at 16:50:35:
In Reply to: Re: Status?
posted by Administrator on November 08, 2002 at 13:26:34:

> For instance, some messages would say that Character "A" appears in Cable 
#37. Well, without a complete analysis of Cable #37, I'm not going to add one 
character's appearance.

Most of those type of messages were probably mine :)  (my penchant for 
listing obscure super-villain appearances).  I didn't realize we needed to 
do a complete analysis of the issue we spot an omission in.  All apologies!

			*	*	*

Re: Status?
Posted by Administrator on November 08, 2002 at 17:42:56:
In Reply to: Re: Status?
posted by Jhaeman on November 08, 2002 at 16:50:35:

Honestly, Jhaeman, I have no sense that anyone in particular does it a lot, 
just that it's done a lot. I need to clarify something, though. I only need 
a complete analysis for those books that haven't already been analyzed. My 
typical response to the person above would be, "You'll notice if you check 
carefully that Cable's not listed as appearing in Cable #37, either, because 
it hasn't been analyzed yet."

If you notice an omission for an obscure villain, or any character, then 
first look to see if any characters from that book are listed.

If the answer is no:

* Was the book published in 1993 or 94? If yes, hold your horses; we'll get 
to it. If no, then maybe I don't have the book, and I need your complete 
analysis, and will be eager to read it.

If the answer is yes:

* Then the book has already been analyzed. We don't need an analysis. Just 
alert us about the omission.

Clearer?

			*	*	*

Re: Status?
Posted by Jhaeman on November 09, 2002 at 18:35:35:
In Reply to: Re: Status?
posted by Administrator on November 08, 2002 at 17:42:56:

> Clearer?

Got it!

			*	*	*

Re: Status?
Posted by JLH on November 07, 2002 at 00:12:20:
In Reply to: Re: Status?
posted by Administrator on November 06, 2002 at 16:58:08:

> There are a couple of new contributions, but not many. For the time being, 
that's where efforts need to be concentrated. If anyone can contribute an 
analysis for a book that's not currently claimed on the Closing the Gap 
page, please post something.

I'm still working on all of the Venom books. I was waiting until I got a 
few minor books in (the Spider-Man Special Edition & Hulk/Venom one-shots, 
for instance), but I should have the analysis done within a week for just 
about every one of those issues on the Gap.

			*	*	*

HELA...HELLFIRE...HEPHAESTUS
Posted by Arthur Stein</a> on November 07, 2002 at 16:31:43:

new entries marked **

HELA [ASGARDIAN]
T 366
**T 371
T 372

HELLFIRE/MIKAL DRAGONMEGAS
TER 1
TER 2
**TER 3
TER 4

HEPHAESTUS
**T@ 5
RED RAVEN 1/3
A 256-BTS
A 281

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent 
piece of information engineering!

			*	*	*

Can somebody tell me what issues this is from ?
Posted by RL on November 10, 2002 at 02:14:49:

Can somebody tell me what issues this is from ?

Blade's body was sought by true vampires, on orders from a renegade 
department of the espionage agency SHIELD that was secretly composed of 
vampires. The department believed that Blade's unique body chemistry could 
be used to develop a type of vaccination for vampirism, which was based on 
an enzyme that mutated people into vampires. In reality, Blade was merely 
in a deep coma, and he woke up as a pseudo-vampire similar to Morbius. 
Blade defeated the vampires and returned to continue his life mission

			*	*	*

Re: Can somebody tell me what issues this is from ?
Posted by Andy Holcombe on November 10, 2002 at 02:38:44:
In Reply to: Can somebody tell me what issues this is from ?
posted by RL on November 10, 2002 at 02:14:49:

That sounds like the Bart Sears and Andy Smith created limited series from 
a couple of years ago.  I believe there were six issues in the series.

			*	*	*

Re: Can somebody tell me what issues this is from ?
Posted by Andy Holcombe on November 10, 2002 at 02:45:01:
In Reply to: Re: Can somebody tell me what issues this is from ?
posted by Andy Holcombe on November 10, 2002 at 02:38:44:

The series in question would be Blade: Vampire Hunter (the third series with 
Blade in the title role, or fifth if you count the Crecent City Blues and 
Sins of the Father oneshots).  It also had a 1/2 issue from Wizard.

			*	*	*

Re: Can somebody tell me what issues this is from ?
Posted by Paul O'Brien on November 10, 2002 at 18:31:21:
In Reply to: Re: Can somebody tell me what issues this is from ?
posted by Andy Holcombe on November 10, 2002 at 02:38:44:

>> That sounds like the Bart Sears and Andy Smith created limited series 
from a couple of years ago.  I believe there were six issues in the series.

Sounds right to me.  That was the series which had a whining narrator 
meandering around a desert bleating "Woe, woe is Blade" every three pages, 
which is probably its most distinguishing feature.  It was truly abysmal 
and, regrettably, did run the full six issues.

			*	*	*

Red Skull II and Red Guardian of the 1940's-same person?
Posted by John McDonagh on November 10, 2002 at 10:16:29:

   I am just wondering about this. I extrapolated this myself, but has 
anywhere specifically explicitly verified this? In any event, the Red 
Guardian of the 1940's appeared in Namor Annual#1 and Captain America 
Annual#13. Also, the Red Skull does not actually appear in Captain's Weird 
Tales; in that story, Captain America has a DREAM only in which he 
encounters the Red Skull; repeat, it was only a dream. 

			*	*	*

Re: Red Skull II and Red Guardian of the 1940's-same person?
Posted by Spirit of 76 on November 11, 2002 at 07:37:01:
In Reply to: Red Skull II and Red Guardian of the 1940's-same person?
posted by John McDonagh on November 10, 2002 at 10:16:29:

Have you seen a copy of Cap Annual #13?  This shows the Red Guardian at the 
end of WWII, and then the scene shifts to the Soviet Union and the creation 
of the Communist Red Skull.  

On the Captain America Message Board, we have discussed whether these scenes 
were meant to link the Red Guardian with the Communist Red Skull.  It is not 
explicit, but one can easily assume they are the same person.

Roy Thomas wrote the story.  Somebody really should ask him whether that was 
his intent.

Spirit of 76

			*	*	*

Treading old ground:  my reply to Paul's most recent calendar - Part One.
Posted by Jeph! on November 11, 2002 at 23:32:06:

Well, it's been just over a month, so I thought I should reply to Paul's 
calendar.  At this point, I'm getting hazy on details, but I can still make 
SOME intelligent commentary  so commentate I shall.  Hopefully Paul won't 
have forgotten all HIS details and he'll know what I'm talking about.  I 
don't know how far I'll be able to get tonight, but I'll post what I manage 
to do.

Here goes

> PRELUDE (BEFORE END OF JULY)

> Iron Man v3 #48  FB

> The Sons of Yinsen (apparently without Sun Tao) retrieve Ultrons head 
under orders from the pre-programmed sentient armor, mistaken to be Yinsen 
come back to life. I would say this happens immediately after the beginning 
of the first flashback in IM3 47.

This flashback HAS TO occur after A:UI, much later on down the line.  
Ultron's head comes from that book, and doesn't EXIST to be retrieved any 
earlier than that.

> Iron Man v3 #47  FB #1 (end)

> After downloading his head into the sentient armor, Ultron spends the 
next several days having the Sons of Yinsen prepare a batch of armors and 
a suspicious Sun-Tao is dealt with. After this flashback comes the order 
to go public and establish the Church of Yinsen, which, after a period of 
"a few weeks" is seen in IM3 46.

Now, as you point out, this portion of the flashback DOES have to occur 
before A:UI, notably because the Church of Yinsen goes public before then.  
But, I don't believe that there's anything that says that Ultron's HEAD is 
on the armor at this point.  It could simply be the Ultron-12 in the armor 
commanding the Church to go public, and dealing with Sun-Tao  in fact, it 
HAS to be, because Sun-Tao's rampage also comes before A:UI.  So this can 
stay, but the FB above it has to be moved.

>SEPTEMBER
>
> Black Panther v3 #25 (end)

> The same day as UX 387. It is long enough after the beginning of BP3 25 
for TChalla to change Wakandas monetary standard, return nationalized 
assets, and force a State Department hearing. A day should do it, dontcha 
think? ;)

Actually, no, I don't think so.  That's a lot of legal and political stuff 
to do, especially since you've got the issue smack in the middle of an alien 
invasion-slash-environmental crisis (MaxSec and the Ego-spore).  Also, there 
are problems with Storm's appearance.

Your Maximum Security calendar starts the same way ours does, going from 
BP3 #25's beginning into UX #387, where Ross and QDJ pick up Storm in New 
Orleans.  But then you have them return, and meet up with Panther in #25's 
end, the very same day  and then you roll into BP3 #26-27  placing the 
start of Panther's "World War" arc, covering #26-29, DURING Maximum 
Security.  As I said, you have the Panther perform #25's delicate political 
maneuvers in the middle of a worldwide emergency  and then you place BP3 
#26-27, where the Deviants, Wakandans, and Atlanteans are at a war footing, 
ALSO in the middle of this worldwide alien invasion.  It doesn't seem to 
make much sense  wouldn't they be dealing with aliens or fighting the 
Ego-spore, rather than worrying amongst themselves?

THEN you go on to posit that during this invasion, Storm went to visit 
the Panther, and when she left at the end of #27  presumably returning 
to the X-Men  she was nowhere to be seen for the rest of the crisis!

Given that on your calendar, the events of MaxSec #1-3 only span 3 days or 
so, I don't think it's unreasonable to do a little Panther-shuffling.  Try 
this on for size:

MaxSec #1  the alien importation begins.
BP3 #25 pp. 1-20  Panther fights aliens in Wakanda.
UX #387  Ross and QDJ collect Storm to take her to Wakanda.
MaxSec #2-3  two to three days.  We don't see Storm again during all of 
the crossover X-Books, which could imply that she's en route to or in 
Wakanda, doing her bit to help out there (it IS a worldwide crisis).  The 
invasion wraps, with Panther included in the group of heroes.
BP3 #25 pp. 20-22  the Panther returns home and is able to flip-flop 
the Wakandan economy, now that the world markets are calm enough to 
pay attention.  He is greeted by Storm, who has been waiting for him.  
(And Storm waiting for three days is not unreasonable, given that her 
visit was at a king's  and former love interest's  request.)
BP3 #26  While rounding up aliens left over from MaxSec (and this 
is something we see occuring in A3 #36 as well, so the presence of 
aliens does not necessarily mean the book is during MaxSec), Storm 
and the Panther find a runaway Deviant mother and child.  Ghaur's 
demands for their return sparks a delicate political situation that 
captures the world's attention (again, now that the crisis is over, 
this political clash is more believable than if it were taking place 
mid-Ego-attack).
BP3 #27  the crisis deepens, and Storm goes back to the X-Men.

It explains Storm's non-appearance in MaxSec, gives Panther more time to do 
his political stuff, and separates out Panther's "war" arc from MaxSec much 
more cleanly.  Plus it only involves two days' worth of calendar movements.

I highly recommend this small change.

> Gambit v2 #24
> Same day as Gam2 23. Green trees are shown.
> (By the way, Jeph, I believe Gambit v2 #24 follows from issue #23 and 
should be placed right after it.)

This is something I mentioned last time  there is NO EVIDENCE that this 
issue takes place the same day as issue #23.  None.  Not a stitch.  If 
you can back this up, please do, but otherwise I recommend moving this 
issue AWAY from MaxSec.  In GAM3 #23, we see New Orleans overrun by the 
Ego-spore.  In GAM3 #24, it is clean and normal  not overrun, and not 
full of holes and cleaning up from the attack.

The only thing that I can think of that links the two issues is that at 
the very end of #23, New Sun materializes behind Gambit and watches his 
walk off  and #24 begins with the New Sun blindsiding Gambit and yanking 
him into an alternate world.  But since we've already established that 
Gambit goes straight to Reed Richards in MAXSEC #3 following GAM3 #23, 
this snaps the link between the two issues.  And, New Sun's been 
masterminding his vengeance and watching Gambit for months.  A little 
thing like materializing to watch Gambit walk away is NOT a definite 
implication that he's about to attack.  Not at all  and given his powers, 
he would be capable of attacking Gambit without actually being there.

There really is no link between the two issues  not even a deliberately-
implied one.

There aren't any clues on how to place it in any of the main X-books, and 
no temporal clues in the issue, so I recommend placing it between X #108 
and UX #389  which is where it was published, and is a good clean gap in 
the X-Book's storylines.  (Technically, I recommend placing it between 
Moira's funeral in UX #389-FB, which closely followed X #108, and the 
main body of UX #389.)  This is how Russ placed W2 #158, which was also 
published that week, and you seem content to let that placement stand.

>Thunderbolts #49

>Same day as the end of TB 48; I dont place a gap between TB 48 and 49. 
After TB 59 FB pg. 13-14.

> Captain America v4 #1  FB  FB

> The day before the main story in this issue  September 10.

> Captain America v4 #1  FB

> September 11. This flashback occurs "seven months" before CA4 1, which 
occurs on Easter.

Technically this is not a flashback.  Half the issue just takes place on 
9/11, and the next half takes place "seven months later".

> Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36

> A "flashback" issue set on September 11. Hawkeye was pulled here in the 
short break between TB 49 and 50, as explained by Jeph; after TB 50 he is 
incarcerated and wouldnt be able to be present. Cyclops is here, so it 
must be after X:SC 4.

> Thunderbolts #50 (including flashbacks and epilog #1)

> Same day as TB 49.

I'm confused.  You say that TB #50 takes place on the same day as TB #49, 
but from your placement of CA4 #1-FB-FB (the Sept. 10 FB), you have TB #49 
occuring on Sept. 10th or before.

By the way, if you're going to place a time gap between TB #49 and #50 (and 
of course we'd all want it to be a small one), then I suggest moving TB #50 
to Sept. 12th or 13th.  It seems unlikely that Hawkeye would infiltrate a 
Washington DC installation on the same day that planes are ramming into 
other DC installations, and as Hawkeye helped out in NYC he'd have a little 
sensitivity for the situation.

I know, I know, if you look at the whole thing too much it falls apart, but 
I'd like it tons if Hawk's attack was as LITTLE ill-timed as possible.  It 
doesn't really matter for the strict purposes of the MCP, but I thought I'd 
mention it.

> Black Panther v3 #28

> Black Panther v3 #29

> Black Panther v3 #30  FB #2

> BP3 28-29 and the second flashback in BP3 30 occur during one day. In BP3 
28, BP3 27 is referred to as having occurred "the other day" and it is 
"years" after Def 84. Everett K. Ross mentions "our new rookie president," 
but we dont know to whom this refers.

This is another situation that doesn't fit too well around our current 
placement  of 9/11.  BP3 #26-29 deal very heavily with the world's political 
landscape, focusing in part on the USA  and 9/11 radically altered many 
things, even in the Marvel Universe.  It doesn't seem likely that the 
events in those issues would play out the way they did if the USA suffered 
a terrorist strike in the middle of them.  Moving the entire BP arc back 
before 9/11  even as little as moving them to the 10th  would go a long 
way to making the chain of events flow more realistically.

Also, for chronology purposes, it would improve Magneto's continuity.  
I've mentioned before that as a sovereign leader of an African nation, he 
does a lot of travelling to the US  and I've been trying to minimize these 
appearances, combining them as best I can.  Currently in this time-frame we 
have Magneto somehow in Manhattan at the time the terrorists strike in ASM2 
#36, and then we have Magneto in the Bronx a few days later to meet with 
the Panther about their tender political situation.  By flipping the two, 
moving BP3 #28-29 to Sept. 10th, we get a much better flow to Magneto's 
chronology  he came to America to meet with the Panther, and while he was 
still here, he was caught up in the terrorist attacks!  It gives him much 
better motivation  and gives him much more time to make it home to Genosha 
for UX #388.

I also highly recommend THIS small change.  It still leaves us with Ross' 
mention of "our new rookie President", but there's really no way around 
that with our current calendar.  Ross could simply be referring to some 
state of events where then-VP Gore had to fill in for a few days  perhaps 
Clinton was undergoing surgery at the time.

> OCTOBER

> Gambit v2 #25

> One night and "a few days" later. Full moon.

I'm not sure why you have this book placed so far back  before "Dream's 
End", even, when it hit the stands two months afterward (the week after 
X #109, in fact).  If you're looking to have it occur on a full moon, why 
not place it on December 4th, which according to UX@2000, part 3, is also 
a full moon?  That way, it's at least in the same general timeframe 
(Christmastime) as its publishing order suggests it should be.

> DECEMBER

> Uncanny X-Men Annual 2000 (part 3)

> One night. There are "twenty shopping days till Christmas," so it must 
be December 4. Snow and full moon.

Yeah  try placing GAM3 #25 here.  Story-wise it takes place some time 
after GAM3 #24, as he's had time to recover from the severe burnout his 
powers suffered during his battle with the New Sun.

> JANUARY

> X-Treme X-Men #3  FB #2

> One day. Rogue, Psylocke and Thunderbird are wearing their red X-Treme 
costumes, so this training session must occur between UX 390 and XX 2-FB.

Actually, there's nothing in UX #390 to limit this  unless you're working 
on the assumption that since the Beast wasn't wearing his X-Treme costume 
in UX #390, that means they didn't exist yet.  Personally, I'm leaning 
towards the notion that since the X-Treme Team was trying to keep their 
mission a secret from Xavier, they would wait until the very last minute 
before busting out their new outfits  I'd place this as far forward as 
possible.

> Gambit and Bishop #1  FB

> One day shortly after X 109 and "a week" before G&B 1. The X-Treme team 
leave the mansion. I left a huge time gap between now and XX 1.

> Gambit and Bishop: Alpha, #1-6

> This series takes place over the course of two days "a week" after G&B 
1FB. A full moon is seen throughout the series. This may be the next full 
moon after UX 00 pt. 3. Cable appears here after C2 95. I suggest that 
the Beast sticks around the mansion for a short while before joining the 
X-Treme team, long enough to appear on the TV in X 111, then in W2 162-166.

Except the only reason that the Beast  and Bishop  DID stick around the 
mansion was because they were being mind-controlled by Stryfe.  It would 
make much more sense that, at the end of the series, Bishop collected the 
Beast and went off to meet the rest of the X-Treme Team, like they were 
supposed to.  It makes LESS sense to assume that Bishop went off to join 
the team and DIDN'T try to bring the Beast.

It's easy to say that Hank's appearance on TV in X #111 was a taped 
interview, and it's similarly easy to say that W2 #162-169 occur BEFORE the 
Gambit and Bishop series  or at least in the one-week gap between G&B #1-FB 
(in which most of the X-Treme Team leaves) and G&B #1-6 (in which Stryfe's 
mind control is broken).

> Weapon X  The Draft: Agent Zero

> Again, I dont have this, but it must occur before DP2 59.

This has to occur during a period where Wolvie has two good eyes.  Try just 
after W2 #169.

> FEBRUARY

> X-Treme X-Men #3  FB #

> This flashback shows the Beast being interviewed on TV. It must occur 
after the convalescing mentioned in W2 167-FB and before he rejoins the 
X-Treme team in XX3 FB #3.  (Jephs other "flashback" in X 111, with the 
televised Beast, I place the same day as X 111.)

I'm assuming that you mean X #111-FB here, and you're right about its 
placement  but it's pretty obviously a taped interview  Beast is in his 
lab, not a studio set, so it's very hard to believe it's live. I'd place 
it closer to UX #390, given its subject matter  an interview about the 
inexplicable cure of the Legacy Virus.

> Amazing Spider-Man v2 #32-35
> ** Amazing Spider-Man v2 #36 **
> Amazing Spider-Man v2 #37-38

> The "Spidey vs. Morlun" storyline only occurs over the course of a day 
or two. It ends with Peter getting severely beaten. High school is in 
session and ASM2 35 shows a full moon.

You really need to take #36 out of this lineup.

Okay  I've gone through seven pages of this, and I can't do any more right 
now.  It's too late at night and it's getting too hard to follow.  And I'm 
not even at the actual Kang War yet.  Agh.

I suppose I'll be working on this in chunks for quite some time.  Paul, I'd 
love feedback on any of the things I mentioned above.  Sean, you too if 
you're out there.

Heck  everyone jump in!  The more the  ahh, I can't do it with a straight 
face.  But I'd appreciate feedback from anyone with an opinion.  Thanks, all.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Multiverse Madness--to Jeph
Posted by Grant Di Palma on November 12, 2002 at 21:00:26:

About your hypothesis that we could explain the Marvel and DC crossovers with 
a phenomenon that erases any memory of the contact from the characters, I 
find it interesting, but I'd rather see a crossover that once and for all 
establishes an actual meeting of characters from the two universes that 
leaves the characters with an awareness of the events, so that readers can 
always point to that story and say, There, that was when the two universes 
breached their barriers and left a lasting mark on the characters involved 
after they returned to their worlds.  Something for the history books of the 
respective universes.

			*	*	*

HERA...HERCULES...HIGH EVOLUTIONARY
Posted by Arthur Stein on November 12, 2002 at 21:23:54:

new entries marked **

HERA/"AUGUSTINE JONES" [GREEK GOD]
**T@ 5
T 129
T@ 8

HERCULES [GREEK GOD]
T 126
**T 127-BTS   (Narrative Page 3 Panel 3: Meanwhile as victorious Hercules 
is en route to Hollywood . . .)
TTA 79/2
T 128

. . . . . . .

CHAMP 4
**GR 17
CHAMP 5

. . . . . . .  

A 271
**AF 39
A 272

HIGH EVOLUTIONARY/HERBERT EDGAR WYNDHAM
WOSM@ 4/3-FB
**H2 149-FB   (not certain of placement
WCA@ 3/3-FB

. . . . . . . . . . 

TTA 96/2
M/PRM 1
**M/PRM 2
WLOCK 1

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if 
I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or 
comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of 
information engineering!

			*	*	*

wolverine annual '99
Posted by bsl on November 13, 2002 at 07:40:52:

anyone roughly know where story 1 of this annual fits into wolverine 
chronology? a few guides say after issue 139, but in the annual story he has 
metal claws by the looks of the art, in 139 he still has bone

any ideas?

thanks

			*	*	*

Re: wolverine annual '99
Posted by Jeph! on November 14, 2002 at 00:01:50:
In Reply to: wolverine annual '99
posted by bsl on November 13, 2002 at 07:40:52:

I'll have to check, but if it can be bumped up to after #148, then it can 
happily exist during a period where Wolvie has his metal claws back.

Then again, I'm not sure if Deadpool's appearance in the annual was before 
or after, or referenced in, DP2 #27 - because Wolvie still had his bone 
claws in that issue.

It's entirely possible that the "metal" effect is a colorist's error.  It's 
been known to happen from time to time.

I'll take a look.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Updates to my X-Timeline!  [Spoilers for current books.]
Posted by Jeph! on November 14, 2002 at 01:21:14:

After reading the latest X-offerings, I thought I'd dummy up a quick update 
to my  X-chronology from a while back.  Comments welcome, as usual.

X-Treme X-Men X-Pos #1 came out today  and reading it has raised some 
questions in my mind.  (First and foremost, how are we going to abbrevaite 
this in the MCP?  Might I suggest the overpoweringly-obvious "XXX"?  Hee hee, 
I'm juvenile.)

The three X-Books are starting to spin apart, chronology-wise.  Events and 
characters in one are not necessarily reflected accurately in another, and 
it's making my job difficult.  A number of mistakes and logic errors are 
starting to creep in, and so I thought it'd be best if I laid out my 
thoughts logically, so that they can be inevitably modified later on.  Grr.

This is what I have so far, starting just after the conclusion of X #126 
("Imperial"), UX #407 (Banshee's X-Corps in Paris), and XX #9/XX@2001 (the 
X-Treme Team in Australia).  Please jump in with corrections and/or kudos.

--------

A3 #56-FB  the Beast and Thor guest-star  we've assumed that Thor is at 
the mansion to resign his position between Thor #42-43, and gets caught 
up in the battle.

XX #10-18  Thor is seen at the mansion, but not in the action, implying 
that it's in the same time-frame as A3 #56-FB, but just after  Thor may 
have been good enough to help the Avengers out once, but not twice in a 
row.  This arc takes three days, and the X-Men end up with major injuries, 
including Storm confined to a wheelchair.

ORDER #1-6  Thor is no longer with the team.  The X-Men's lineup places 
the series after X #126, but since Prof. X is not walking, we assume that 
he's not fully strong enough yet, and so we place this issue before X #127.

BP3 #41-47  Wolvie guest-stars in #41-44.  Black Panther and Iron Man fall 
out, placing this after "the Order", where they're on good terms.  Thor is 
widely known as the Lord of Asgard by this point.

X #127  Prof. X can walk with a cane.  Xorn learns about life in New York.

UX #408-409  Wolvie comments that Prof. X is walking again, placing this 
after X #127.  (I've swapped these two from my last version of this.)  
Archangel is asked in a press conference when Paris will be rebuilt, placing 
this before X #128, where we see a rebuilt Eiffel Tower.  The issues take 
about two weeks.

DP2 #67  Dazzler, last seen in X #113, guest-stars, trying to kick-start 
her music career again after the presumed death of her lover, Longshot 
(referenced in UX #393).

XU #36/1  Kitty, at college, finds a videotape of her father's death in 
Genosha, a fact referenced in XX #19 (placing that issue after this).  She 
gets into a fight on campus and is put on academic probation.  In Mekanix 
#1 she gets a letter reminding her of that fact.

A3 #56  it's been "a month" since A3 #56-FB.  The Beast is audited by 
Stark's bean-counters.

DP2 #69  Deadpool prank-calls Wolverine (meaning this occurs before XX #19, 
where Wolvie stays with Storm in New Orleans), Siryn (meaning this occurs 
before X #128, where Siryn is posted to X-Corp Paris), and Captain America 
(which could occur between A3 #55-56 or #56-57  I chose the latter, based 
on publication order.  So scientific!).

XX #19  Jean tells the story of X #122-126 like it's fairly new, and the 
Beast comments that Prof. X is walking again, putting this (just) after X 
#127.  Wolvie stays with Storm in New Orleans until XXX #1 (and presumably 
#2).  The X-Men are celebrating Thanksgiving, but this just doesnt fit 
with Paul's calendar, especially given that Chamber #1 is September.  Let's 
just say it's a "glad you survived your terrible injuries in XX #18" party, 
a literal Giving of Thanks.  Thunderbird, Lifeguard, Rogue, and Gambit 
leave the team.  Kitty Pryde makes a very impassioned speech for the X-Men 
to leave her alone.

MEKANIX #1-2 (of 6)  School is in session, and Kitty's project with Dr. 
Benes is nearing completion  meaning that this likely is very late into 
the semester.  She gets a letter reminding her of her academic probation, 
meaning that her fight in XU #36/1 was fairly recent.

X #128-130  Paris is rebuilt.  Prof. X and Jean are in Paris, visitng X-Corp.

XXX #1(-2?)  The events of X #130 are referenced, and Prof. X and Archangel 
are implied to be in Paris  I'm presuming it's before Darkstar's funeral, 
as Archangel is sighted at the school during or immediately following her 
funeral.  Wolvie is still in New Orleans, helping Storm walk again  
presumably during or after XXX #2 he finishes helping her and travels back 
to NYC, in time for his many other appearances there.

W2 #177-178  Wolvie travels from New York to the Vatican to deal with evil 
Catholics.

X #131  Wolvie is picked up "from Madripoor".  I'm sort of assuming that 
his adventures in W2 #177-178 occur just before this, as I can't find any 
other spots where Wolvie's off the North American continent in the surrounding 
comics.  By the end of the issue we see Archangel at the school  if he was 
ever in Paris, he's home now.

X #132-133  Storm, walking again, and Thunderbird guest-star in Genosha, 
where Polaris is found alive.  T-Bird, currently off the X-Treme roster, 
didn't necessarily arrive WITH Storm  by the looks of it, he could be 
volunteering with the X-Corp relief squad.  And in #133, Wolvie's in 
Afghanistan  again, I'm assuming that he was sent there from Paris in #131.

CHAMBER #1  "early September".  Chamber enrolls undercover at ESU, and his 
leaving is referenced in UX #410.  Cyclops guest-stars.

UX #410-413  these issues all take place over one day or so.  Havok's body 
is found and someone says "Call Lorna", so I've placed this after her 
recovery in X #132.  Prof. X and Wolverine are in the USA, so I've placed 
this after X #133 (rather than before #132).  Chamber is off to college.  
Sammy, a young fish-like boy, is enrolled at the school.  Archangel mutates 
back to pink skin.  The X-Men hire a nurse, Annie, which may indicate that 
Xorn, the healer, is not at the school  we last saw him in X #127, 
learning about New York, and the logical assumption is that he is out 
wandering, learning about life in the USA.  He'll be back for X #135, 
though, teaching at the school.  I hope the presence of a healer AND a 
registered-nurse is eventually addressed in UX

W2 #179-180  Logan begins #179 at Xavier's school, and travels to Canada.

CHAMBER #2-3  Chamber continues his investigation of the ESU student murders.

UX #414  Northstar accepts a teaching position at the school.

UX #415  "weeks" after UX #410-413, "the other day" after UX #414.  Several 
X-Men switch their costumes to Kia Asayima's designs.

CHAMBER #4  Chamber comes home.  Sammy is seen at Xavier's, placing it after 
UX #413.

W2 #181-182 The beginnings of a continuing arc placing Wolvie in with the 
NYC mob.

EXILES #18-19  Meanwhile, in the Mojoverse, we see that following the 
events of UX #393-FB, Longshot isn't actually dead, he's merely the prisoner 
of Mojo.

XU #38  a stand-alone issue taking place one year after Colossus' death  
meaning, sometime in January.  Given that Chamber #1 and Mekanix #1 seem to 
take place in September, we've got a ways to go beforer we can place this 
story into the flow of the others.  Fortunately, it doesn't seem to matter  
Kitty's appearance isn't a problem, and I don't think Nightcrawler's will be 
either, unless the current "losing his faith" arc in UX takes a dramatic 
turn.  We'll see.

--------

Feedback welcome!

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

CORRECTIONS to my updates.  Spoilers still...
Posted by Jeph! on November 14, 2002 at 01:38:18:
In Reply to: Updates to my X-Timeline!  [Spoilers for current books.]
posted by Jeph! on November 14, 2002 at 01:21:14:

Whoops!  As always, I miss some details the first time around.

Minor changes  I flip-flopped DP2 #69 and XU #36/1 to better pad out the 
time prior to A3 #56 and to keep Kitty's "incident" at school as close to 
Mekanix #1 as possible.  I also better rationalized by placement choices 
for Chamber #4 and Wolverine #179-180.  And I tried to fix my typos  but 
that's a losing battle and we all know it.

Okay.  Feedback on THIS one, please!

--------

A3 #56-FB  the Beast and Thor guest-star  we've assumed that Thor is at 
the mansion to resign his position between Thor #42-43, and gets caught up 
in the battle.

XX #10-18  Thor is seen at the mansion, but not in the action, implying 
that it's in the same time-frame as A3 #56-FB, but just after  Thor may 
have been good enough to help the Avengers out once, but not twice in a 
row.  This arc takes three days, and the X-Men end up with major injuries, 
including Storm confined to a wheelchair.

ORDER #1-6  Thor is no longer with the team.  The X-Men's lineup places 
the series after X #126, but since Prof. X is not walking, we assume that 
he's not fully strong enough yet, and so we place this issue before X #127.

BP3 #41-47  Wolvie guest-stars in #41-44.  Black Panther and Iron Man fall 
out, placing this after "the Order", where they're on good terms.  Thor is 
widely known as the Lord of Asgard by this point.

X #127  Prof. X can walk with a cane.  Xorn learns about life in New York.

UX #408-409  Wolvie comments that Prof. X is walking again, placing this 
after X #127.  (I've swapped these two from my last version of this.)  
Archangel is asked in a press conference when Paris will be rebuilt, placing 
this before X #128, where we see a rebuilt Eiffel Tower.  The issues take 
about two weeks.

DP2 #67  Dazzler, last seen in X #113, guest-stars, trying to kick-start 
her music career again after the presumed death of her lover, Longshot 
(referenced in UX #393).<p>DP2 #68  whatever it is  presumably fits right 
here, eh?

DP2 #69  Deadpool prank-calls Wolverine (meaning this occurs before XX #19, 
where Wolvie stays with Storm in New Orleans), Siryn (meaning this occurs 
before X #128, where Siryn is posted to X-Corp Paris), and Captain America 
(which could occur between A3 #55-56 or #56-57  I chose the former to pad 
out the month between A3 #56 and A3 #56-FB.  So scientific!  By the way, 
this is a change from my last timeline  "v2.0"  where I placed this issue 
between A3 #56-57).

A3 #56  it's been "a month" since A3 #56-FB.  The Beast is audited by 
Stark's bean-counters.

XU #36/1  Kitty, at college, finds a videotape of her father's death in 
Genosha, a fact referenced in XX #19 (placing that issue after this).  
She gets into a fight on campus and is put on academic probation.  In 
Mekanix #1 she gets a letter reminding her of that fact.

XX #19  Jean tells the story of X #122-126 like it's fairly new, and the 
Beast comments that Prof. X is walking again, putting this (just) after X 
#127.  Wolvie stays with Storm in New Orleans until XXX #1 (and presumably 
#2).  The X-Men are celebrating Thanksgiving, but this just doesnt fit 
with Paul's calendar, especially given that Chamber #1 is September.  Let's 
just say it's a "glad you survived your terrible injuries in XX #18" party, 
a literal Giving of Thanks.  Thunderbird, Lifeguard, Rogue, and Gambit 
leave the team.  Kitty Pryde makes a very impassioned speech for the X-Men 
to leave her alone.

MEKANIX #1-2 (of 6)  School is in session, and Kitty's project with Dr. 
Benes is nearing completion  meaning that this likely is very late into 
the semester.  She gets a letter reminding her of her academic probation, 
meaning that her fight in XU #36/1 was fairly recent.

X #128-130  Paris is rebuilt.  Prof. X and Jean are in Paris, visiting 
X-Corp.

XXX #1(-2?)  The events of X #130 are referenced, and Prof. X and 
Archangel are implied to be in Paris  I'm presuming it's before Darkstar's 
funeral, as Archangel is sighted at the school during or immediately 
following her funeral.  Wolvie is still in New Orleans, helping Storm walk 
again  presumably during or after XXX #2 he finishes helping her and 
travels back to NYC, in time for his many other appearances there.

W2 #177-178  Wolvie travels from New York to the Vatican to deal with 
evil Catholics.

X #131  Wolvie is picked up "from Madripoor".  I'm sort of assuming that 
his adventures in W2 #177-178 occur just before this, as I can't find any 
other spots where Wolvie travels off the North American continent in the 
surrounding comics.  By the end of the issue we see Archangel at the 
school  if he was ever in Paris, he's home now.

X #132-133  Storm, walking again, and Thunderbird guest-star in Genosha, 
where Polaris is found alive.  T-Bird, currently off the X-Treme roster, 
didn't necessarily arrive WITH Storm  by the looks of it, he could be 
volunteering with the X-Corp relief squad.  And in #133, Wolvie's in 
Afghanistan  again, I'm assuming that he was sent there from Paris in #131.

CHAMBER #1  "early September".  Chamber enrolls undercover at ESU, and his 
leaving is referenced in UX #410.  Cyclops guest-stars.

UX #410-413  these issues all take place over one day or so.  Havok's body 
is found and someone says "Call Lorna", so I've placed this after her 
recovery in X #132.  Prof. X and Wolverine are in the USA, so I've placed 
this after X #133 (rather than before #132).  Chamber is off to college.  
Sammy, a young fish-like boy, is enrolled at the school.  Archangel mutates 
back to pink skin.  The X-Men hire a nurse, Annie, which may indicate that 
Xorn, the healer, is not at the school  we last saw him in X #127, learning 
about New York, and the logical assumption is that he is out wandering, 
learning about life in the USA.  He'll be back for X #135, though, teaching 
at the school.  I hope the presence of a healer AND a registered-nurse is 
eventually addressed in UX

W2 #179-180  Logan begins #179 at Xavier's school, and travels to Canada, 
placing the issue after UX #410-413.  From Logan's chronology, he hadn't 
been on US soil since W2 #177, until he got back in UX #410.

CHAMBER #2-4  Chamber continues his investigation of the ESU student murders.

UX #414  Northstar accepts a teaching position at the school.

UX #415  "weeks" after UX #410-413, "the other day" after UX #414.  Several 
X-Men switch their costumes to Kia Asayima's designs.

CHAMBER #4  Chamber comes home.  Sammy is seen at Xavier's, placing it 
after UX #413.  I place this here, after UX #415, because we haven't seen 
Chamber's return in the main X-books yet.  Then again, we may not see it, 
but he was on the ESU campus for some time  probably longer than the two 
weeks separating UX #410 and #415.

W2 #181-182 The beginnings of a continuing arc placing Wolvie in with the 
NYC mob.

EXILES #18-19  Meanwhile, in the Mojoverse, we see that following the 
events of UX #393-FB, Longshot isn't actually dead, he's merely the prisoner 
of Mojo.

XU #38  a stand-alone issue taking place one year after Colossus' death  
meaning, sometime in January.  Given that Chamber #1 seems to take place in 
September, we've got a ways to go before we can place this story into the 
flow of the others.  Fortunately, it doesn't seem to matter  Kitty's 
appearance isn't a problem, and I don't think Nightcrawler's will be 
either, unless the current "losing his faith" arc in UX takes a dramatic 
turn.  We'll see.

--------

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: CORRECTIONS to my updates.  Spoilers still...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 19, 2002 at 21:32:48:
In Reply to: CORRECTIONS to my updates.  Spoilers still...
posted by Jeph! on November 14, 2002 at 01:38:18:

Jeph,

Most comments that I could make would be reflected in my calendar, but I'll 
underscore a few things...

A3 56-FB 
No need to assume Thor is here to resign.  I have him here as a member of 
the team before the whole Odin death storyline.  You may be thinking of A3 
56 proper.  And I believe that Thor was at Avengers mansion a couple of times 
after Odin's death (once to resign when the Khan invasion occurs in XX 10-18) 
and another time in A3 56.  My order for A3 56 in the calendar is different 
than you show.  More explanation appears in the calendar (which I'm 
continuing to update as the comments come in).

Order #1 doesn't necessarily happen immediately before Order #2 and a week 
separates UX 408 and 409.  These gaps create opportunities for mixing up the 
chronology a bit to accommodate other clues (again, see calendar).

Does DP2 69 follow from DP2 67-68?  If not, DP2 67-68 don't necessarily 
have to occur here and may occur a while before.

The only issue of Chamber I have is #2, which seems to follow from the end 
of Chamber #1, although these issues are separated in your chronological 
list.  More info on this series would be most appreciated.

--Paul
(gearing up for your "Trading Old Ground" post...)

			*	*	*

Points and a suggestion
Posted by Jeph! on November 19, 2002 at 22:31:33:
In Reply to: Re: CORRECTIONS to my updates.  Spoilers still...
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 19, 2002 at 21:32:48:

Hey, Paul!  Welcome back!

> A3 56-FB 
> No need to assume Thor is here to resign.  I have him here as a member of 
the team before the whole Odin death storyline.

This is true -- there are two theories to Thor's appearance there: either 
it's immediately after A3 #55, and Thor is "still" with the team, or it's 
in the same time-frame as XX #11, and Thor is in the process of leaving the 
team.

Either way, my point was that AS #56-FB definitely comes before XX #10-18.

> You may be thinking of A3 56 proper.

Nope -- that has to come after Thor changed his costume, and Thor in XX #11 
still had his classic outfit.

> More explanation appears in the calendar (which I'm continuing to update 
as the comments come in).

Yep -- and I have a hard time believing that it takes place THAT far back, 
for one small story-related reason.  At the time you've placed it, Beast's 
transformation was very new to him, and he is shown as unable to manipulate 
simple objects [a pen and a soda can] in X #114 - and yet in A3 #56-FB he 
pilots a quinjet with ease.

Aside from that, it looks to me like the thing to do with that flashback is 
to FIRST place the main body of A3 #56 into a chronology -- THEN look for 
slots around a month before to try dropping the FB into.

> Order #1 doesn't necessarily happen immediately before Order #2 and a week 
separates UX 408 and 409.  These gaps create opportunities for mixing up the 
chronology a bit to accommodate other clues (again, see calendar).

Right -- but my post wasn't a calendar -- it was just an order of events.  
There was no need to break up UX #408-409 because there's no credible 
evidence that anything happened in-between them.  You once tried to place 
BP3 #41-44 into that gap, I believe, but in UX #409 Wolverine was referenced 
as having "hung around all week watching", so it looks like it's more 
accurate to say "the story arc took three weeks" than "the issues can be 
broken apart".

And in the case of the Order series -- I suppose it would be more accurate 
to just put "Order #2-6" in the slot I put them.  Since Order #1 doesn't 
have any X-Men in it, it really doesn't matter as far as my X-timeline 
goes...

> Does DP2 69 follow from DP2 67-68?  If not, DP2 67-68 don't necessarily 
have to occur here and may occur a while before.

The story arc in DP2 #65-69 is that Deadpool has been infected with a form 
of psionic aphasia that's affecting his memory and concentration.  Given 
the seemingly steady progress of the virus over the arc, I have problems 
placing any issue of DP too out-of-step with the rest.  Besides, for the 
purposes of the MCP this doesn't really matter -- as far as my X-timeline 
is concerned, all you have to know is that DP2 #67 occurs after X #113 and 
before DP2 #68.

> The only issue of Chamber I have is #2, which seems to follow from the 
end of Chamber #1, although these issues are separated in your chronological 
list.  More info on this series would be most appreciated.

Which I'll gladly provide, as soon as I get the issues.  (I only have #1-2.)  
You're right, #2 continues straight from #1 in terms of the shooting -- but 
the overall story arc seems to take several weeks.  I was generalizing and 
guessing -- I don't feel comfortable finding gaps and breaking up the action 
until I have the whole series in front of me.

Point taken, though -- does the entirety of Chamber #2 coour on the same 
day, which would be Chamber's second day on campus?

> --Paul

> (gearing up for your "Trading Old Ground" post...)

Ahh yes, that.  Actually, I'm working on a new method for this -- a take on 
an old suggestion of mine.  One of our problems is that we keep presenting 
each other with fully realized calendars, and we can't effectively critique 
them any deeper than surface level, because we can't see the work that went 
in.

I'm trying to put together a type of calendar in which I show my work -- one 
that gets presented step-by-step.  That way, others can look into my work 
itself and discover the specific logic leap that they disagree with, rather 
than just have to point and say what they dislike about the finished product.

If we can create a unified calendar like this -- someobody posts the first 
step, we all agree or make changes, THEN move on to step two -- and so on 
and so on -- I think we'd have a far stronger product than the way we're 
going about it now.

I'll see if I can articulate it better when I actually post it -- but I'm 
essentially asking us all to start over from the beginning and create the 
Kang War chronology anew, as a synthesis of everything all of us have to 
contribute.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Points and a suggestion
Posted by Kevin  on November 20, 2002 at 23:06:48:
In Reply to: Points and a suggestion
posted by Jeph! on November 19, 2002 at 22:31:33:

> If we can create a unified calendar like this -- someobody posts the first 
step, we all agree or make changes, THEN move on to step two -- and so on 
and so on -- I think we'd have a far stronger product than the way we're 
going about it now.

I laughed when I first read the above paragraph. I thought to myself, "God, 
he's searching for a "Unified Theory" like Einstein was.  You know, Einstein 
died before he could figure that one out!

In other words, getting everyone here to agree, it like trying to grasp 
quantum physics!

> I'll see if I can articulate it better when I actually post it -- but I'm 
essentially asking us all to start over from the beginning and create the 
Kang War chronology anew, as a synthesis of everything all of us have to 
contribute.

Actually, that sounds like an intriguing idea.  And I believe a step by 
step process of fleshing it out would be probably for the best. I look 
forward to seeing what you all come up with.

			*	*	*

Re: Points and a suggestion
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 22, 2002 at 21:25:36:
In Reply to: Re: Points and a suggestion
posted by Kevin  on November 20, 2002 at 23:06:48:

> > Actually, I'm working on a new method for this -- a take on an old 
suggestion of mine.  One of our problems is that we keep presenting each 
other with fully realized calendars, and we can't effectively critique them 
any deeper than surface level, because we can't see the work that went in.

> > I'm trying to put together a type of calendar in which I show my 
work -- one that gets presented step-by-step.  That way, others can look 
into my work itself and discover the specific logic leap that they disagree 
with, rather than just have to point and say what they dislike about the 
finished product.

> > If we can create a unified calendar like this -- someobody posts the 
first step, we all agree or make changes, THEN move on to step two -- and 
so on and so on -- I think we'd have a far stronger product than the way 
we're going about it now.

> I laughed when I first read the above paragraph. I thought to myself, 
"God, he's searching for a "Unified Theory" like Einstein was.  You know, 
Einstein died before he could figure that one out!<p>> In other words, 
getting everyone here to agree, it like trying to grasp quantum physics!

I'm not sure we're calling for total agreement, but the problem seems to 
be that we're all making adjustments based on one another's posts (and 
offline e-mails) and those changes then impact other things, and we're not 
all up to date on the step-by-step thought processes we're using.

Jeph, it is tough to tackle small portions and move onto other portions 
without some view for the larger chronological picture.  If it helps, I'm 
plugging in more information (my own and others') into the calendar entries 
so that we can get all temporal clues and rationales (relative and absolute) 
into one place.

I'm wondering if a "bulletin board calendar" might work, in which 
contributors tack their chronological analysis notes onto the entries for 
each issue, segment, or flashback listed.  Then after a while we stand 
back and see what we've got.  The question is how we do this...

> > I'll see if I can articulate it better when I actually post it -- but 
I'm essentially asking us all to start over from the beginning and create 
the Kang War chronology anew, as a synthesis of everything all of us have 
to contribute.

> Actually, that sounds like an intriguing idea.  And I believe a step by 
step process of fleshing it out would be probably for the best. I look 
forward to seeing what you all come up with.

Intriguing, yes...

			*	*	*

super-villains; reprints
Posted by Jhaeman on November 14, 2002 at 02:04:09:

Here's a few super-villains missing from already-analysed books:

Loan Shark=Ghost Rider # 65

Status Quo=Marvel Team-up # 96

Will-Killer=Marvel Team-up # 143

----------------

I was hoping someone may know how I can find out original issue numbers of 
material reprinted in a few comics I have:

Marvel Super-Heroes Megazine # 3 (reprints one issue of Fantastic Four, 
Daredevil, Iron Man, and Hulk)

Marvel Tales # 46 (reprints one issue of Amazing Spider-Man)

-------

Comics That Time Forgot:  www.geocities.com/jhaeman/comics/index.html

			*	*	*

Re: super-villains; reprints
Posted by DCW3 on November 14, 2002 at 12:19:34:
In Reply to: super-villains; reprints
posted by Jhaeman on November 14, 2002 at 02:04:09:

> I was hoping someone may know how I can find out original issue numbers 
of material reprinted in a few comics I have:<p>> Marvel Super-Heroes 
Megazine # 3 (reprints one issue of Fantastic Four, Daredevil, Iron Man, 
and Hulk)

> Marvel Tales # 46 (reprints one issue of Amazing Spider-Man)

Courtesy of the Unofficial Handbook of Marvel Comics Creators 
(http://mitglied.lycos.de/maelmill):

Marvel Super-Heroes Megazine #3 reprints Fantastic Four #234, Daredevil 
#161, Iron Man #117 and Incredible Hulk vol. 2 #316.

Marvel Tales #46 reprints Amazing Spider-Man #63.

			*	*	*

Marvel Reprints page
Posted by John McDonagh on November 14, 2002 at 20:15:21:
In Reply to: Re: super-villains; reprints
posted by DCW3 on November 14, 2002 at 12:19:34:

http://www.math.ucla.edu/~alee/reprints.html

has a wonderful site for most Marvel reprints questions.

			*	*	*

Hate-Monger clarficiation
Posted by John McDonagh on November 14, 2002 at 20:21:29:

  A clarification on the Hate-Monger; the one who was Hitler-related 
actually survived by hopping bodies. That was how the Hate-Monger began; 
when Hitler died he jumped bodies thanks to Arnim Zola's help. The Hate-
Monger did this many more times over the years. See Super-Villain Team-Up#17. 

Oh, some more info:

The Hate-Monger appeared in a flashback in Super-Villain Team-Up #16 to an 
event immediately after the Red-Skull's defeat in Super-Villain Team-Up #16.

Anyway, yes, the flashback shows the Hate-Monger's men finding the Red Skull 
and taking him to the Hate-Monger's moon probe. The Red Skull did not 
initially believe the HM's story about his origins. Later, the Hate-Monger 
introduced the Skull to Arnim Zola-we see the Hate-Monger in his usual 
hooded costume, so this must take place before Captain America#208-212 (a 
footnote references those issues). In Captain America#210-212, the Hate-
Monger appeared as Nazi X. The flashback also states that the Hate-Monger 
aided the Red Skull in the construction of the Death's Head satellite in 
Captain America#227-228 

			*	*	*

HIJACKER...HILDEGARDE,,,HITLER
Posted by Arthur Stein on November 16, 2002 at 12:07:02:

new entries marked **
HIJACKER /
Name: HOWARD MITCHELL
**TTA 40
M/TIO 24
M/TIO 96

HILDEGARDE [ASGARDIAN]
The 311/2 entry is listed twice, once at the beginning and once later (after 
T 250)
As Odins actions in 311/2 against Hela are a direct result of the happenings 
in T 304-306, I would think that the 311/2 entry (as well as the 312/2 and 
313/2 entries) rightfully belong placed after T 250

**T@ 14/3
(removing T 311/2)
(relocating T 312/2 to later on)
(relocating T 313/2 to later on)
T 195
. . .
T 250
T 311/2
T312/2 (relocated)
T313/2 (relocated)
**T 314/2
T@ 9

HITLER, ADOLF
INV 33
** CA 446

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent 
piece of information engineering!

			*	*	*

Re: HIJACKER...HILDEGARDE,,,HITLER
Posted by Jeph! on November 18, 2002 at 17:38:36:
In Reply to: HIJACKER...HILDEGARDE,,,HITLER
posted by Arthur Stein on November 16, 2002 at 12:07:02:

Quick question.  Should "Hitler, Adolf" be put under "Hate-Monger"?

Are they one and the same?  Or is the Hate-Monger, like, a clone of Hitler 
or something?  I got from an earlier post that the character body-jumps to 
survive, but was he ever the original Hitler?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Hatemonger....
Posted by Arthur Stein on November 18, 2002 at 19:42:17:
In Reply to: Re: HIJACKER...HILDEGARDE,,,HITLER
posted by Jeph! on November 18, 2002 at 17:38:36:

> Quick question.  Should "Hitler, Adolf" be put under "Hate-Monger"?

> Are they one and the same?  Or is the Hate-Monger, like, a clone of Hitler 
or something?  I got from an earlier post that the character body-jumps to 
survive, but was he ever the original Hitler?

Accordinging to the Red Skull in CA 446, Hitler's mind survived... "thanks 
to the science of Mind Transference, in the body of the enemy you know as 
Hate Monger."

Nick Fury states that the first body (killed in FF 21) was " a replacement 
body grown by Arnim Zola" (CA2 26)

So I guess the presumption is that all the bodies are likely clones of the 
original Adolf Hitler, cloned by Zola for future use. Then whenever the 
current Hate Monger body 'died'. The mind would transfer to the next cloned 
body. Nicely wraps up the apparent 'deaths' of the hate-monger.

			*	*	*

Re: Hatemonger....
Posted by Jeph! on November 18, 2002 at 19:51:45:
In Reply to: Hatemonger....
posted by Arthur Stein on November 18, 2002 at 19:42:17:

> Accordinging to the Red Skull in CA 446, Hitler's mind survived... "thanks 
to the science of Mind Transference, in the body of the enemy you know as 
Hate Monger."

Hitler's mind survived what?  His being burned to death by the original 
Human Torch in 1945?

> So I guess the presumption is that all the bodies are likely clones of the 
original Adolf Hitler

...right, all the bodies are clones, I get that, and it's the same mind 
hopping from one to the next.  But I'm asking, what's the origin of the 
Hate-Monger's original mind?  Is it the consciousness of the ORIGINAL Hitler, 
or merely the consciousness of the first Hitler clone?

From your Red Skull quote above, it sounds as if it's implied that the 
Hate-Monger is the ORIGINAL Adolf Hitler ... correct?

And if so, should we update HITLER's MCP entry to read "see HATE-MONGER"?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

And another thing...
Posted by Kevin  on November 19, 2002 at 11:11:21:
In Reply to: Re: Hatemonger....
posted by Jeph! on November 18, 2002 at 19:51:45:

And another thing: The latest Hatemonger to appear, (he appeared in CAP 
Vol.3 #25-27, then CAP Vol.3 #45-48, unless I'm mistaken).  That Hatemonger 
was a creation of the Cosmic Cube.  Hatemonger was created as the Red Skull 
lost his Cosmis Cube powers by being incenerated by Galactus' ship in CAP 
#19, I believe.  Basically, the Red Skull ordered the cube to reform into 
the Hatemonger, (aka Hitler).

So how would you list that Hatemonger's appearance?  Same Character? or is 
that Hatemonger the 2nd, or something?  

Here's what I know from memory, (I don't have those issues in front of me).  
Back in CAP Issues 445 to 448, Red Skull mentioned that Hitler's mind was 
trapped in the Cosmic Cube, supposedly at the end of WW2, if I remember 
right.   The clones of Arnim Zola which became Hatemonger, that was an 
offshoot of Hitler. So basically, did we have two Hitlers? The one resting 
in the Cosmic Cube, and the one in the body of Hatemonger?  I would guess 
that the Hatemonger created by Red Skull (as revealed in CAP Vol. 3 #47 
and 48) was the Red Skull giving a body back to the mind that rested in 
the Cosmic Cube.  But that's just my interpretation on that.

I don't think that really helps you, but I felt that stuff I mentioned 
needed to be taken into consideration.  I could probably go home and review 
my CAP comics later tonight sometime...

			*	*	*

Re: And another thing...
Posted by DCW3 on November 19, 2002 at 12:12:01:
In Reply to: And another thing...
posted by Kevin  on November 19, 2002 at 11:11:21:

> Here's what I know from memory, (I don't have those issues in front of 
me).  Back in CAP Issues 445 to 448, Red Skull mentioned that Hitler's mind 
was trapped in the Cosmic Cube, supposedly at the end of WW2, if I remember 
right.   The clones of Arnim Zola which became Hatemonger, that was an 
offshoot of Hitler. So basically, did we have two Hitlers? The one resting 
in the Cosmic Cube, and the one in the body of Hatemonger?  I would guess 
that the Hatemonger created by Red Skull (as revealed in CAP Vol. 3 #47 and 
48) was the Red Skull giving a body back to the mind that rested in the 
Cosmic Cube.  But that's just my interpretation on that.

I may be mistaken, but I believe that the Hate-Monger's mind was actually 
trapped in the Cosmic Cube in Super-Villain Team-Up #17.

			*	*	*

Re: And another thing...
Posted by Kevin  on November 19, 2002 at 13:19:55:
In Reply to: Re: And another thing...
posted by DCW3 on November 19, 2002 at 12:12:01:

> I may be mistaken, but I believe that the Hate-Monger's mind was actually 
trapped in the Cosmic Cube in Super-Villain Team-Up #17.

Really?  Cause I could have swore that the Hitler that rested inside the 
Cosmic Cube had done so since WW2, (somehow, the Nazi's had gotten their 
hands on one???).  Shoot. This is why I need to go home and review my 
comics....so little time...

I've got all of Mark Waid's run on CAP, and all of Dan Jurgens run.

I don't have any Supervillian Team up issues.  Can somebody who has those 
issues verify?

			*	*	*

SVTU 17
Posted by Arthur Stein on November 19, 2002 at 18:08:07:
In Reply to: Re: And another thing...
posted by Kevin  on November 19, 2002 at 13:19:55:

SVTU 17... Hatemonger to Arnim Zola.. "Do not call me that stupid pseudonym! 
You know who I am! Now and forever I am Adolf Hitler...I allowed myself to 
have my brain specially energized by your machines in secret...Your process 
enabled me to project my mind-essence into the waiting brain you had cloned 
from my cells! The world thought me dead, but death could never claim me now! 
Never! Ad as the years went by...we refined the technique until I could 
transfer from specially-prepared body to specially prepared body almost at 
will."

The Red Skull had failed to isolate the essence of the cube but had hid this 
fact from Hitler. Instead he followed through on its 'creation' and when 
Hitler projected his essence into the cube, there was nothing there for him 
to control. He remained trapped. The last panel shows the cube with a small 
Hitler face within, as the Skull remarks "Sometimes we must leave the 
past --- behind us."

			*	*	*

And now that I have my comics in front of me...
Posted by Kevin  on November 19, 2002 at 22:23:46:
In Reply to: SVTU 17
posted by Arthur Stein on November 19, 2002 at 18:08:07:

> SVTU 17... Hatemonger to Arnim Zola.. "Do not call me that stupid 
pseudonym! You know who I am! Now and forever I am Adolf Hitler...I allowed 
myself to have my brain specially energized by your machines in secret...
Your process enabled me to project my mind-essence into the waiting brain 
you had cloned from my cells! The world thought me dead, but death could 
never claim me now! Never! Ad as the years went by...we refined the technique 
until I could transfer from specially-prepared body to specially prepared 
body almost at will."

> The Red Skull had failed to isolate the essence of the cube but had hid 
this fact from Hitler. Instead he followed through on its 'creation' and 
when Hitler projected his essence into the cube, there was nothing there 
for him to control. He remained trapped. The last panel shows the cube with 
a small Hitler face within, as the Skull remarks "Sometimes we must leave 
the past --- behind us."

Well, I guess that settles that. Hatemonger, in his own words, claims to 
be Hitler.  Jeph asked if Hatemonger was indeed Hitler, or was Hatemonger 
just a personality based on Hitler, inside a clone of Hitler.  This seems 
to verify that it's Hitler.  Of course, is it possible that Hatemonger is 
delusional, and merely thinks he's Hitler?  See the way one could possibly 
twist this? :-)

Anyway, I've gone home and reviewed my CAP comics, and I was wrong.  Just 
like Arthur explained, (thanks Arthur!) it was Hatemonger that was trapped 
in the cube. I thought, for some reason, it was Hitler's mind straight from 
the final days of WW2 somehow.  But no, it seems Hitler's past went 
something like this:

WW2 was near ending. Hitler died.

He becomes the Hatemonger, capable of leaping from body to body.

Then, he gets betrayed by the Skull, and trapped in the Cosmic Cube.

And this is where I started collecting: Mark Waid's run, CAP Vol. 1, #444.  
In CAP #445-448, we learn that Nazi cultists have captured the Cosmic Cube 
Hitler/Hatemonger resides in, and are working on extracting his mind.  

Question: Since reality warped to resemble the mind inside the cube's idea 
of the world in those issues, does this constitute an appearance of Hitler/
Hatemonger? Or a behind the scene's appearance?

At the end of that 4 parter, CAP destroys the Cube, and the released 
energies appear to destroy the Skull.

Then, in CAP vol. 3, #14, Skull pulls himself back together using the power 
of the Cosmic Cube, which he has "internalized" into himself.  Hatemonger/
Hitler is no where to be seen. Later on, in CAP vol. 3, Issues 47 and 48, 
we learn that that at some point before the Skull lost his Cube powers, (as 
seen in CAP #19) the Skull recreated, (perhaps subconsiously?) the Hatemonger. 

This Hatemonger had hate empathy powers: he was able to bring out the hatred 
that was in individuals. The more people he brought out racial hatred in, 
the more powerful he became, until by the time CAP #45-48 rolled around, he 
had great psychic powers, similar to ones granted by the Cube.

Which brings me to my next question:
Is this Hatemonger that appears in CAP Vol.3, #25-27, and #45-48, the same 
as the prior Hatemonger?

Points to consider: In CAP #25, Hatemonger says "Such was the vision of Der 
Fuehrer, and such is the vision of HATEMONGER!"  He says that like they're 
two different individuals. But it could be concluded since he hasn't revealed 
he's Hitler to his NeoNazi troops in this issue, he's just saying that to 
play on the Neonazi's ideas of following Hitler.

Another point to conisder: In CAP #26, Hatemonger is going to shoot misiles 
full of anthrax into the Middle East and Europe.  They don't reveal the 
identity of the new Hatemonger in this issue.  Nick Fury recall his original 
fight with Hatemonger in FF #21, saying "HateMonger was whippin' up all 
kinds of trouble, an when things went sour, his own men fragged him.  Wierd 
enough, but the real shocker was yet to come. We pulled off the hood to 
find Adolf Hitler.  Wasn't really the man himself, but a replacement body 
grown by Arnim Zola.  He's still a Cauldron of Hate and evil, and if we 
don't get outta here, as whacked as the world is these days, he might 
succeed where ol' Adolf failed!"   

'He might succeed where ol' Adolf failed?'  I thought Nick Fury himself 
stated that they were one and the same?   

In CAP #47, before Hatemonger reveals himself to be Hitler, he says to the 
Skull: "Our goals have always been similar you know. Working together like 
this, we cannot be defeated!"

To which the Skull says "'Together'"? This time, you work for me." Which 
suggests it's the same Hitler/Hatemonger as before. 

But that begs the question: When Hatemonger was inside the Cosmic Cube 
back in CAP #445-448, he labeled the Red Skull a traitor, and as soon as 
he gained control of the Cube, he was going to have the Skull slain.  That's 
why the Skull wanted to aid CAP in destroying the Cube.  So why are 
Hatemonger and the Red Skull so nice to each other in CAP #45-48? I suspect 
this new Hatemonger, (whether it's Hitler or not), when recreated by the 
Skull, was shaped with the idea of having him obedient to the Skull. And 
that's why Hatemonger was basically working for the Skull during this 
storyarc.

But I don't know, it's still up in the air.  I guess we could blame Dan 
Jurgens bad writing, (it's not really bad, I enjoyed his story arcs, but 
they didn't make since when compared to the older stuff written). Similar 
to Ultron acting somewhat out of character in recent Iron Man issues, 
right Jeph?

			*	*	*

Hate-Monger-Itis!
Posted by Jeph! on November 19, 2002 at 23:40:14:
In Reply to: And now that I have my comics in front of me...
posted by Kevin  on November 19, 2002 at 22:23:46:

> Well, I guess that settles that. Hatemonger, in his own words, claims to 
be Hitler.  Jeph asked if Hatemonger was indeed Hitler, or was Hatemonger 
just a personality based on Hitler, inside a clone of Hitler.  This seems 
to verify that it's Hitler.

Sure looks that way.  I guess we need to include a link from Hitler's own 
chronology, then.  Regardless of what body it is, the mind is that of the 
original, and to me that counts as a continuation of the same character.

> Of course, is it possible that Hatemonger is delusional, and merely thinks 
he's Hitler?  See the way one could possibly twist this? :-)

Bah.  Don't go there -- that could apply to any Marvel character ever.  
"Why, Prof. X is delusional, and merely THINKS his name is Charles!"  ;)

> Question: Since reality warped to resemble the mind inside the cube's idea 
of the world in those issues, does this constitute an appearance of Hitler/
Hatemonger? Or a behind the scene's appearance?

I would say that any appearance of the cube in that storyline is a BTS 
appearance of the Hate-Monger.  Mainly because the focus of the story is 
on freeing him from it -- the clear implication is that he's there, and 
the character's important enough to the story that we should note it.

> Which brings me to my next question:
> Is this Hatemonger that appears in CAP Vol.3, #25-27, and #45-48, the 
same as the prior Hatemonger?

I would say so, yes.  New powers and a contrived "back-from-death" scenario 
are par for the course in the books we look at -- I don't think there's any 
indication that an all-new Hate-Monger was created -- and I think there's 
every indication that the Skull's INTENT was to re-create the original.

> Points to consider: In CAP #25, Hatemonger says "Such was the vision of 
Der Fuehrer, and such is the vision of HATEMONGER!"  He says that like 
they're two different individuals.

That can be interpreted a number of ways, yes -- but I mainly take it as 
"that was my vision then [back when I was plain old Hitler], and it's my 
vision now [that I have amazing powers]!"

> Nick Fury recall his original fight with Hatemonger in FF #21, saying 
"...We pulled off the hood to find Adolf Hitler.  Wasn't really the man 
himself, but a replacement body grown by Arnim Zola.  He's still a Cauldron 
of Hate and evil, and if we don't get outta here, as whacked as the world 
is these days, he might succeed where ol' Adolf failed!"   

> 'He might succeed where ol' Adolf failed?'  I thought Nick Fury himself 
stated that they were one and the same?

Nick seems to be under the impression that since the BODY was that of a 
clone, that Hate-Monger was a clone -- he had no way of knowing that the 
ORIGINAL Hitler's mind was inhabiting the clone.  So, as far as Fury 
knew, his statement that Hate-Monger was different from Hitler was true.

> In CAP #47 ... the Skull says "'Together'"? This time, you work for me." 
Which suggests it's the same Hitler/Hatemonger as before.

Yes.  Strongly.

> I suspect this new Hatemonger, (whether it's Hitler or not), when 
recreated by the Skull, was shaped with the idea of having him obedient 
to the Skull. And that's why Hatemonger was basically working for the Skull 
during this storyarc.

Could be.  Villains swear vengeance on each other all the time, though, 
and very rarely follow through.

> But I don't know, it's still up in the air.  I guess we could blame Dan 
Jurgens bad writing ... Similar to Ultron acting somewhat out of character 
in recent Iron Man issues, right Jeph?

...Sure.  Anything can be explained.  :)

I don't think it's up in the air at all, though -- it seems pretty obvious 
that there's a common link between all appearances of the Hate-Monger, and 
that link is the psyche of the original Adolf Hitler.

Meaning, I suppose, that several Hate-Monger MCP chronologies need to be 
meshed into one, correct?  I and II, and possibly IV?

-Jeph!

PS - of note, Hate-Monger V is a completely unrelated character -- he's 
a psionic vampire of sorts that appeared in A #341-342 and the "Justice" 
miniseries.  he recently popped up in Hulk v3 #29, with the new name 
"Animus".  The two characters are one and the same according to Fabian 
Nicieza, who wrote all of the issues in question.  Their MCP chronologies 
should be combined as well.

			*	*	*

Re: Hate-Monger-Itis!
Posted by Andy Holcombe on November 20, 2002 at 01:31:17:
In Reply to: Hate-Monger-Itis!
posted by Jeph! on November 19, 2002 at 23:40:14:

> Meaning, I suppose, that several Hate-Monger MCP chronologies need to be 
meshed into one, correct?  I and II, and possibly IV?

It would appear to be difficult to add IV in to the mix since he's active 
around the second Secret War, when Adolf was safe in his Cosmic Cube.  Even 
if IV is based on Hitler, he would be a unique being since the "prime" 
Hitler is indisposed.

			*	*	*

Re: Hate-Monger-Itis!
Posted by Sean Curtin on November 20, 2002 at 13:01:02:
In Reply to: Re: Hate-Monger-Itis!
posted by Andy Holcombe on November 20, 2002 at 01:31:17:

> > Meaning, I suppose, that several Hate-Monger MCP chronologies need to 
be meshed into one, correct?  I and II, and possibly IV?

> It would appear to be difficult to add IV in to the mix since he's active 
around the second Secret War, when Adolf was safe in his Cosmic Cube.  Even 
if IV is based on Hitler, he would be a unique being since the "prime" 
Hitler is indisposed.

The fourth Hate-Monger wasn't related to the others at all--he was just a 
creation of the Psycho-Man.

--
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: Hate-Monger-Itis!
Posted by Kevin  on November 20, 2002 at 12:46:10:
In Reply to: Hate-Monger-Itis!
posted by Jeph! on November 19, 2002 at 23:40:14:

Cool. Thanks for answering my questions, folks.  

> PS - of note, Hate-Monger V is a completely unrelated character -- he's a 
psionic vampire of sorts that appeared in A #341-342 and the "Justice" 
miniseries.  he recently popped up in Hulk v3 #29, with the new name 
"Animus".  The two characters are one and the same according to Fabian 
Nicieza, who wrote all of the issues in question.  Their MCP chronologies 
should be combined as well.

Hey, I got that issue of Hulk...did Fabian reveal this in an interview, or 
through a comic book?  Cause I thought we couldn't count something as fact 
till it was revealed during the course of an actual story.  Writer's 
ntentions could be warped after all. What if some other Marvel creator 
comes along and thinks up a new way to use Animus, thus making that 
character NOT be  one of the old versions of Hatemonger?

			*	*	*

Animus
Posted by Jeph! on November 20, 2002 at 13:18:24:
In Reply to: Re: Hate-Monger-Itis!
posted by Kevin  on November 20, 2002 at 12:46:10:

Yes, it was revealed by Fabian online.  I think the closest the book got 
to it was having Animus say something like "I can't use my old name 
anymore" -- which, in my book, counts as enough of an in-book reference to 
acknowledge the fact that Animus is meant to be SOME pre-existing Marvel 
character.  And since the writer told us which one, we now have enough 
info (in my opinion) to make the change.

It's not 100% "canon", but it's true.

> What if some other Marvel creator comes along and thinks up a new way to 
use Animus, thus making that character NOT be  one of the old versions of 
Hatemonger?

THEN we alter the MCP to go with the new info, when and if it ever occurs.  
But for now, they should be treated as the same character.

I don't think we should AVOID making changes "just in case" they're ever 
invalidated in the future.  The MCP, I think, should always reflect the 
up-to-date, most current state of the Marvel Universe.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Animus
Posted by Administrator on November 20, 2002 at 17:56:16:
In Reply to: Animus
posted by Jeph! on November 20, 2002 at 13:18:24:

> Yes, it was revealed by Fabian online.  I think the closest the book got 
to it was having Animus say something like "I can't use my old name anymore" 
-- which, in my book, counts as enough of an in-book reference to acknowledge 
the fact that Animus is meant to be SOME pre-existing Marvel character.  And 
since the writer told us which one, we now have enough info (in my opinion) 
to make the change.

I'm a little more hesitant. Fabian may have said it, but Marvel hasn't. (How 
does Marvel say it? They put it in a Marvel book.) There are many instances 
herein where we annotate appearances as they were portrayed, rather than as 
the writer intended.

			*	*	*

Re: Animus
Posted by Jeph! on November 20, 2002 at 23:14:00:
In Reply to: Re: Animus
posted by Administrator on November 20, 2002 at 17:56:16:

> I'm a little more hesitant. Fabian may have said it, but Marvel hasn't. (How 
does Marvel say it? They put it in a Marvel book.) There are many instances 
herein where we annotate appearances as they were portrayed, rather than as 
the writer intended.

True -- I'd have to look into it a little more.

But if a new character showed up, looking EXACTLY LIKE an old character and 
claiming to be a pre-existing character who was forced to change his name...

...I mean, it's fairly well implied.  What's our stance on making changes 
that are -- to use your guideline above -- IMPLIED in a Marvel book?

Now, granted, I'd have to check the resemblance between Animus and the 
Hate-Monger V (and Kyle Hotz's artwork isn't going to make my job easier) -- 
but if they're identical in terms of character design, shouldn't we at least 
consider linking the two entries?

I suppose more research into Hulk v3 #29 is necessary.  Anyone have the 
issue?  I don't.  :(

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Animus
Posted by Administrator on November 21, 2002 at 13:35:58:
In Reply to: Re: Animus
posted by Jeph! on November 20, 2002 at 23:14:00:

> But if a new character showed up, looking EXACTLY LIKE an old character 
and claiming to be a pre-existing character who was forced to change his 
name...

That adds another dimension to it. But as I read your previous post, they 
didn't claim to be a pre-existing character; they only claimed they were 
forced to change their name.

> ...I mean, it's fairly well implied.  What's our stance on making changes 
that are -- to use your guideline above -- IMPLIED in a Marvel book?

The implication would need to be pretty strong. Again, as I read your post, 
the implication was that it was a pre-existing character, not that it was a 
*particular* pre-existing character. It would seem that "Hate-Monger = Animus" 
is based on in-book speculation, rather than in-book implication.

> Now, granted, I'd have to check the resemblance between Animus and the 
Hate-Monger V (and Kyle Hotz's artwork isn't going to make my job easier) -- 
but if they're identical in terms of character design, shouldn't we at least 
consider linking the two entries?

We should at least consider.

			*	*	*

Re: Animus
Posted by Kevin  on November 22, 2002 at 08:37:59:
In Reply to: Re: Animus
posted by Jeph! on November 20, 2002 at 23:14:00:

> Now, granted, I'd have to check the resemblance between Animus and the 
Hate-Monger V (and Kyle Hotz's artwork isn't going to make my job easier) -- 
but if they're identical in terms of character design, shouldn't we at least 
consider linking the two entries?

> I suppose more research into Hulk v3 #29 is necessary.  Anyone have the 
issue?  I don't.  :(

I have that issue. Do you need any particular info?  I don't have any of the 
old "other Hatemonger version" appearances, so I couldn't compare, but hey, 
if I can help, let me know...

			*	*	*

Re: Animus
Posted by Jeph! on November 22, 2002 at 10:05:15:
In Reply to: Re: Animus
posted by Kevin  on November 22, 2002 at 08:37:59:

> I have that issue. Do you need any particular info?  I don't have any of 
the old "other Hatemonger version" appearances, so I couldn't compare, but 
hey, if I can help, let me know...

Could you provide us with Animus' dialogue?  Anything that seems to be a 
sly reference to his having been around before -- having a prior name, 
perhaps having fought the Avengers ... anyone saying he looks familiar ... 
anything.  Any implications you see being dropped, even if you don't know 
what they refer to.

I'm trying to find the issue in stores to double-check the art, but for now 
this would be a big help.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Animus
Posted by Kevin  on November 22, 2002 at 12:16:30:
In Reply to: Re: Animus
posted by Jeph! on November 22, 2002 at 10:05:15:

Okay, I'll do that, and get back to you on it.

			*	*	*

Re: Animus
Posted by Philippe on November 22, 2002 at 12:48:39:
In Reply to: Re: Animus
posted by Jeph! on November 20, 2002 at 23:14:00:

> Now, granted, I'd have to check the resemblance between Animus and the 
Hate-Monger V (and Kyle Hotz's artwork isn't going to make my job easier) -- 
but if they're identical in terms of character design, shouldn't we at least 
consider linking the two entries?

> I suppose more research into Hulk v3 #29 is necessary.  Anyone have the 
issue?  I don't.  :(

I just compared Avengers #342 & Hulk #29, and the two characters are very 
similar: same dark clothes, same kind of hair, and same power (they feed on 
hatred). Kyle Hotz's version is much more skinny, but it seems to me that 
this is the same character.

In Hulk #29, Animus says "I have to call myself Animus now. Trademark 
problems. Long story." No specific mention is made of his previous fight vs. 
the Avengers, and it is not said explicitly that Animus was Hate-Monger, but 
again, they really look alike.

Philippe

			*	*	*

Re: Animus
Posted by Kevin  on November 22, 2002 at 14:27:43:
In Reply to: Re: Animus
posted by Philippe on November 22, 2002 at 12:48:39:

Well, there you have it.  Saved me a trip home to boot. Of course, if you 
need more details, I, or Philippe here, will gladly provider more details, 
Jeph. But what he said is what I recall.

			*	*	*

Hitler additions......
Posted by Spirit of 76 on November 20, 2002 at 07:17:07:
In Reply to: Re: HIJACKER...HILDEGARDE,,,HITLER
posted by Jeph! on November 18, 2002 at 17:38:36:

In reviewing the Hitler entries, I noticed that the two parallel appearances 
of Hitler in TALES of SUSPENSE #66 and CAPTAIN AMERICA #298 are not listed. 
These appearances take place early in Hitler's rise to power, at the time he 
creates the Red Skull.

I am sure there are ohter appearances not listed, but I can't think of any 
off the top of my head.

			*	*	*

Re: Hitler additions......
Posted by Spirit of 76 on November 21, 2002 at 07:33:02:
In Reply to: Hitler additions......
posted by Spirit of 76 on November 20, 2002 at 07:17:07:

Here are some more Hitler appearances for the record....

CA@13-FB   Early April,1945
YOUNG MEN 24-  WI? 4-  SAGAHT 2  Death of Hitler in late April, 1945

			*	*	*

Hulk #4 and a FB question
Posted by captamr on November 17, 2002 at 11:02:08:

Just a note to include Betty Ross addition in Hulk #4, corrected chronolgy 
(borrowing Arthur's indicators):

BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT
H1
H2
**H4
H5
H6

Hulk #4 also contains a brief flasback sequence of the origin from Hulk #1 
containing all the major characters in this period. Now the sequence only 
runs a few panels but I notice that this isn't listed as a FB in any of the 
chronologies. These are new scenes depicting the same events from #1 but 
they are new scenes of different perspectives. Just when by definition is 
a flashback deemed worthy of inclusion? Does something absolutely new 
factually be presented for the scenes to be included?

Once again, just a fantastic piece of Work!!!

Charlie

			*	*	*

God Loves, Man Kills - canon?
Posted by Jeph! on November 18, 2002 at 20:17:30:

I recently read a posting on comicon.com's X-Men board that said that the 
"X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills" graphic novel was out-of-continuity.  And, 
looking in the Key, I can't seem to find it.

As far as my spotty memory goes, I can't think of a reason it was non-canon, 
but I'll be the first to admit that I don't know it all.

Does anybody know if it is definitively out-of-continuity?  And, if so -- why?

Thanks, all.
-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: God Loves, Man Kills - canon?
Posted by Jeph! on November 18, 2002 at 20:29:14:
In Reply to: God Loves, Man Kills - canon?
posted by Jeph! on November 18, 2002 at 20:17:30:

And here I go again, posting ad then immediately correcting myself.  Duh-HAW!

> I recently read a posting on comicon.com's X-Men board that said that the 
"X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills" graphic novel was out-of-continuity.  And, 
looking in the Key, I can't seem to find it.

Maybe because it's listed under "Marvel Graphic Novel #5", its official 
title.  Bah.  And there it is, firmly in most everyone's chronology listings.

> Does anybody know if it is definitively out-of-continuity?  And, if so -- 
why?

I still wonder -- but now, I'm flipping the question.  Why would anyone think 
that it WASN'T canon?  Was there some debate on this?  Are there 
inconsistencies that the MCP had to overlook or rationalize in order to keep 
it?  I'm curious to know.

Duh-HAW!  Thanks.

-Jeph

			*	*	*

Re: God Loves, Man Kills - canon?
Posted by Paul O'Brien on November 19, 2002 at 07:14:52:
In Reply to: Re: God Loves, Man Kills - canon?
posted by Jeph! on November 18, 2002 at 20:29:14:

>>Why would anyone think that it WASN'T canon?  Was there some debate on 
this?  Are there inconsistencies that the MCP had to overlook or rationalize 
in order to keep it?  I'm curious to know.

I think there's some kind of practical difficulty in finding a suitable gap 
in the X-Men's continuity where the have the right roster and are all wearing 
the right costumes.  From memory, the Official X-Men Index vol 2 just shoves 
it between pages of "Professor Xavier Is A Jerk" and glosses over some of the 
costume choices.

In any event, its inclusion in X-Men Index vol 2 makes it quite clear that 
Marvel regard it as canon, and it's their universe.

			*	*	*

Re: God Loves, Man Kills - canon?
Posted by David Smith on November 19, 2002 at 09:31:11:
In Reply to: Re: God Loves, Man Kills - canon?
posted by Jeph! on November 18, 2002 at 20:29:14:

> I still wonder -- but now, I'm flipping the question.  Why would anyone 
think that it WASN'T canon?  Was there some debate on this?  Are there 
inconsistencies that the MCP had to overlook or rationalize in order to 
keep it?  I'm curious to know.

None that I can think of (been a while since I've read it though).

However this does bring up a point I've mentioned before, Namely the need 
for a page that lists all the books that are NOT included in the MCP as a 
result of being considered non-canonical (preferably with a brief blurb on 
why the books are considered non-canonical). Would certainly help to answer 
such questions when they come up. Just an idea.

			*	*	*

Re: God Loves, Man Kills - canon?
Posted by Administrator on November 19, 2002 at 15:01:34:
In Reply to: Re: God Loves, Man Kills - canon?
posted by David Smith on November 19, 2002 at 09:31:11:

The next update will include this in the FAQ.

			*	*	*

HOBGOBLIN..."HAPPY" HOGAN..."PEPPER" HOGAN
Posted by Arthur Stein on November 20, 2002 at 15:22:14:

new entries marked **

HOBGOBLIN
AWC 81
**Q 33
INH3 3

HOGAN, HAROLD J. "HAPPY"
IM 59
**IM 60
IM 61

HOGAN, VIRGINIA "PEPPER" POTTS
IM 112
** IM 165
IM 199

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece 
of information engineering!

			*	*	*

Re: HOBGOBLIN..."HAPPY" HOGAN..."PEPPER" HOGAN
Posted by Kevin  on November 20, 2002 at 22:45:39:
In Reply to: HOBGOBLIN..."HAPPY" HOGAN..."PEPPER" HOGAN
posted by Arthur Stein on November 20, 2002 at 15:22:14:

Aren't Pepper and Happy divorced? Thus, Pepper's entry in the MCP should go 
back on the "P" page, for Pepper Potts?

Just wondering how that sorta thing works...

			*	*	*

Prester John
Posted by AndyHubert on November 20, 2002 at 16:20:18:

   I just asked Jim Krueger (Earth X, Universe X, Paradise X Author),on the 
X-fan message board, who a character i didn't recognize in Paradise X was. 
he identified him as Prester John. I just looked up his chronology and it 
lists Avatars Covenent of the Shield. i Was under the impression that this 
was a non-canon story. i'm just wondering if anyone cares to explain.

			*	*	*

Avatars: Covenent of the Shield
Posted by Andy Holcombe on November 22, 2002 at 00:17:43:
In Reply to: Prester John
posted by AndyHubert on November 20, 2002 at 16:20:18:

There are some framing sequences with the Shaper of Worlds that place the 
Avatars world somewhere in the Marvel Universe.

			*	*	*

X-Men: True Friends
Posted by bsl on November 21, 2002 at 00:11:47:

any idea where this fits in chronology?

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: True Friends
Posted by Jeph! on November 21, 2002 at 00:39:41:
In Reply to: X-Men: True Friends
posted by bsl on November 21, 2002 at 00:11:47:

> any idea where this fits in chronology?

Somewhere around Excalibur #15-25, if memory serves -- now you've made me 
want to go and read that, curse you.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: True Friends
Posted by Andy Holcombe on November 22, 2002 at 00:53:50:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: True Friends
posted by Jeph! on November 21, 2002 at 00:39:41:

Kitty Pryde leaves the team in Excalibur #19 and doesn't rejoin until #34.  
The Crosstime Caper, which has the team jumping around from dimension to 
dimension, starts in #11 and runs until #25.  My reading of the issues says 
that this story is meant to be in the regular Marvel Universe.

I've got it located between Thor #429 and the Excalibur: Weird War III 
graphic novel, which is nestled between Excalibur issues #34 and 35.  This 
also allows it to fit at the end of Chris Claremont's run on the title.  
For Wolverine, before Uncanny X-Men #273.  This allows for Kitty to have 
found out about Wolverine (and the X-Men) not being dead through the events 
during the X-Tinction Agenda, although Excalibur is still pissed off in 
issue #41.

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: True Friends
Posted by Jeph! on November 22, 2002 at 10:08:54:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: True Friends
posted by Andy Holcombe on November 22, 2002 at 00:53:50:

Yeah -- I just caught the part at the end that confirms that Kitty and 
Phoenix already know that Wolverine's still alive.

> This allows for Kitty to have found out about Wolverine (and the X-Men) not 
being dead through the events during the X-Tinction Agenda, although Excalibur 
is still pissed off in issue #41.

Does it ever say in issues of Excalibur exactly HOW they learned that the 
X-Men were still alive?  IIRC, #35-41 were a big bunch of fill-ins, and #41 
would have touched on it.  Was it during the X-Tinction Agenda?

Good work.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: True Friends
Posted by Paul O'Brien on November 25, 2002 at 06:55:04:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: True Friends
posted by Jeph! on November 22, 2002 at 10:08:54:

> Does it ever say in issues of Excalibur exactly HOW they learned that the 
X-Men were still alive?  IIRC, #35-41 were a big bunch of fill-ins, and #41 
would have touched on it.  Was it during the X-Tinction Agenda?

The entire world learned about the X-Men's return from the dead during the 
X-Tinction Agenda when their show trial in Genosha was televised.  That's 
presumably when Excalibur found out, in the absence of any other stories.

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: True Friends
Posted by French Thom on February 18, 2003 at 19:30:40:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: True Friends
posted by Paul O'Brien on November 25, 2002 at 06:55:04:

> The entire world learned about the X-Men's return from the dead during 
the X-Tinction Agenda when their show trial in Genosha was televised.  That's 
presumably when Excalibur found out, in the absence of any other stories.

Has it ever been explained how could the X-Men be filmed again (i'm talking 
of the eight who "died" in Dallas), as Roma's spell protected their secret?

French Thom

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: True Friends
Posted by Jeph! on February 18, 2003 at 22:56:41:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: True Friends
posted by French Thom on February 18, 2003 at 19:30:40:

> Has it ever been explained how could the X-Men be filmed again (i'm talking 
of the eight who "died" in Dallas), as Roma's spell protected their secret?

The official unofficial explanation is, "the spell wore off".

And, as the X-Men have been filmed countless times since the spell's last 
mention (which I think was in UX #260), apparently it has.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Help Please ! Marvel  Novels
Posted by Mark Montgomery on November 21, 2002 at 14:03:16:

I Love the marvel novels but can not find anyone who knows much about just 
the plain novels not the graphic novels.

If anyone has some kind of list of all the novels paperback or hardbacks 
written it woould be greatly appreciated. I have been collecting as many 
as I can but the search is difficult. x-men, spiderman, captian america, 
hulk, avengers, fantastic four, daredevil, gen 13, gen x, ironman ect.

The oldest book I have found was a 1967 Avengers: Battle the Earth-Wrecker.

			*	*	*

Re: Help Please ! Marvel  Novels
Posted by BobMM on November 21, 2002 at 17:05:28:
In Reply to: Help Please ! Marvel  Novels
posted by Mark Montgomery on November 21, 2002 at 14:03:16:

> I Love the marvel novels but can not find anyone who knows much about just 
the plain novels not the graphic novels.

> If anyone has some kind of list of all the novels paperback or hardbacks 
written it woould be greatly appreciated. 

A Google search on "Marvel novels" turned up this site:

http://www.sff.net/people/krad/marvel.htm

> The oldest book I have found was a 1967 Avengers: Battle the Earth-Wrecker.

Man, I remember that one. Scarlet Witch on the cover, but the Wasp inside, 
right? (Well, the female characters were more-or-less interchangeable back 
then.) I'm pretty sure that was the first for Marvel. 

			*	*	*

2099
Posted by Grant Di Palma on November 21, 2002 at 20:30:31:

What I'm curious about is what happened to the world of Marvel 2099.  Has 
it been considered removed from continuity the way MC2 has been?  I don't 
think that can be because Peter David used elements from the world of 2099 
in Captain Marvel, but I didn't read that storyline so I don't know what's 
going on. 

And would it be more accurate to say that MC2 is considered part of the 
Marvel Universe, but just one of the parallel universes like the worlds of 
What If...?  Or is it just considered a possible future?  Which would most 
likely mean no one creating Marvel comics in the future would be interested 
in bothering with it.

			*	*	*

Re: 2099
Posted by Paul O'Brien on November 22, 2002 at 06:44:12:
In Reply to: 2099
posted by Grant Di Palma on November 21, 2002 at 20:30:31:

As matters presently stand, the 2099 Universe is an alternate timeline (or 
possibly a potential future timeline, depending on whether it's diverged 
from the mainstream yet).  It's still out there but, like M2, it no longer 
holds any status as being the "real" future.

			*	*	*

Re: 2099
Posted by Sean Curtin on November 22, 2002 at 21:03:00:
In Reply to: Re: 2099
posted by Paul O'Brien on November 22, 2002 at 06:44:12:

I think the only possible divergence point for 2099 (not counting Doom 2099's 
trip to the present) was in the Spider-Man 2099/Spider-Man one-shot.

--
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: 2099
Posted by Grant Di Palma on November 23, 2002 at 09:44:15:
In Reply to: Re: 2099
posted by Sean Curtin on November 22, 2002 at 21:03:00:

But was there an official statement made about it by an editor at Marvel in 
the last few years?  I guess that would have happened during the time of 
Bob Harras.  Maybe something quoted on Newsarama when it was at 
AnotherUniverse.com, or in "Comics Buyer's Guide".  Because I remember 
that when the 2099 series began, it was said that this would be THE actual 
future of the present day Marvel Universe.  I had gotten the feeling that 
they had changed their minds about this a few years later, I just didn't 
know if anyone at the company bothered to address it for the fans.

Another question.  Why are some of the 2099 series and characters listed 
here at the Chronology Project but not all?  

			*	*	*

Re: 2099
Posted by ian lloyd on February 14, 2003 at 12:36:46:
In Reply to: Re: 2099
posted by Grant Di Palma on November 23, 2002 at 09:44:15:

THE GRAPHIC NOVEL 2099 MANIFEST DESTINY EXPLAINS HOW THE 2099 UNIVERSE 
DIVERGED FROM THE MAINSTREAM MARVEL UNIVERSE IN 1999

			*	*	*

Hey Paul B.! Still need help with Daredevil?
Posted by Kevin  on November 22, 2002 at 08:43:39:

Hey Mr. Calander man aka Paul B.  You still need help with Daredevil 
chronology?   I could work on a reference list for the issues for DD vol. 
2, (we are on vol. 2 now right?)  Of course, if you've gotten this under 
control, or someone else is helping you, that's fine. Just figured I'd ask. 

			*	*	*

Re: Hey Paul B.! Still need help with Daredevil?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 22, 2002 at 21:15:01:
In Reply to: Hey Paul B.! Still need help with Daredevil?
posted by Kevin  on November 22, 2002 at 08:43:39:

Hey, you bet I still that info on Daredevil!  His series is one of my major 
gaps, so any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated.  
Thanks much for offering, Kevin!

And, yes, we're on volume 2.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Hey Paul B.! Still need help with Daredevil?
Posted by Kevin  on November 23, 2002 at 18:24:35:
In Reply to: Re: Hey Paul B.! Still need help with Daredevil?
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 22, 2002 at 21:15:01:

OK, I'll start working on it immediately. Of course, with the Holiday's 
providing interference, it may be next weekend or later before I could post 
anything. But still, it probably wouldn't take too long. Stay tuned.

			*	*	*

HOGUN...HORUS...HUGIN
Posted by Arthur Stein on November 24, 2002 at 08:28:36:

new entries marked **

HOGUN [ASGARDIAN]
**T@ 5
JIM 119/2
**JIM 120/2
JIM 122/2

.  .  .  .   .

T 145/2
**T 404/2
**T 405/2
**T 406/2
**T@ 14/3
**T 401
T 323

.  .   .   .  .

Plus a little help needed to place these Tales of Asgard stories... 

T 410/2: Hogun is in a tavern in Asgard with Thor and friends

T 415/2: Hogun dissuades Dagal, young son of Thorgum the tree-shaper, from 
the warriors path. 

HORUS [EGYPTIAN GOD]
**M/TIO 23
T 239

HUGIN
**T@ 14/3
T 381

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece 
of information engineering!

			*	*	*

Ant-Man vs. Giant-Man
Posted by captamr on November 25, 2002 at 10:45:59:

The Project lists two separate entries for Hank Pym as both Ant-Man and 
Giant-Man with all entries for Ant-Man ending when Henry converts to Giant-
Man. There are a couple of Ant-Man appearences after that conversion as in 
TTA 58 where he uses both identities. Perhaps the whole character should be 
consolidated as Henry Pym/ Ant-man,Giant-Man, Goliath, etc. so as to avoid 
omissions. There's probably no character as unique to the many identities 
as Henry Pym and it seems ashamed to spread his numerous appearences in 
the Marvel Universe over multiple entries.

Charlie

			*	*	*

Guardians of the Galaxy
Posted by Grant Di Palma on November 25, 2002 at 11:18:31:

Does anyone here know how the future the Guardians of the Galaxy existed in 
is or was regarded by Marvel?  Was the last series they had considered as 
actually taking place in the Marvel Universe?  I know the  characters existed 
in the MU, because there was that crossover between the Guardians of the 
Galaxy annual and some others such as the Avengers annual back in the mid-90s, 
but it's still a bit confusing.  

Have they dropped the idea of including their future events into the MU?  Or 
just plain ignored it, as with X-Men: The Hidden Years?

			*	*	*

Re: Guardians of the Galaxy
Posted by Paul O'Brien on November 25, 2002 at 11:42:42:
In Reply to: Guardians of the Galaxy
posted by Grant Di Palma on November 25, 2002 at 11:18:31:

Despite some later time travel plots which seemed not to have grasped the 
point, Guardians Of The Galaxy is set in an alternate timeline which diverged 
at a point in the past (I think it was an issue of Marvel Two-In-One) where 
the Guardians' Vance Astro persuaded the younger Vance Astro not to become 
an astronaut, or something like that.  This causes a divergent timeline (the 
mainstream MU) where Vance instead goes on to become a superhero and join 
the New Warriors and the Avengers.

			*	*	*

Re: Guardians of the Galaxy
Posted by Grant Di Palma on November 25, 2002 at 13:16:23:
In Reply to: Re: Guardians of the Galaxy
posted by Paul O'Brien on November 25, 2002 at 11:42:42:

So you mean that the alternate timeline the Guardians exist in is the 
divergent timeline you also refer to as the mainstream MU?  At first I 
thought you were saying the Guardians are from a timeline that diverges 
from the MU.  I'm confused about that point.  Could you clarify?

			*	*	*

Re: Guardians of the Galaxy
Posted by Jeph! on November 25, 2002 at 21:09:06:
In Reply to: Re: Guardians of the Galaxy
posted by Grant Di Palma on November 25, 2002 at 13:16:23:

The Guardians ARE from a timeline that diverges from the MU.

Their timeline diverged in Marvel Two-in-One #69, when they came back in 
time and triggered young Vance Adtro's latent telekinetic powers.

In the timeline the Guardians were from, Vance went on to be an astronaut, 
lived 1000 years into the future, and joined the Guardians.

In the NEW timeline that the Guardians created, Vance went on to be a 
superhero -- NOT an astronaut.  This NEW timeline is the current Marvel 
Universe, and has been forever separated from the OLD timeline that the 
Guardians came from.

Was that any clearer?  The new timeline that was created by the Guardian's 
meddling IS the Marvel Universe.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Guardians of the Galaxy
Posted by Grant Di Palma on December 04, 2002 at 17:53:23:
In Reply to: Re: Guardians of the Galaxy
posted by Jeph! on November 25, 2002 at 21:09:06:

Yes, it was.  Thanks Jeph.  So the Guardians exist in the new Marvel 
Universe future timeline, which is the future of THE Marvel Universe we 
know today?   

			*	*	*

Re: Guardians of the Galaxy
Posted by Jeph! on December 04, 2002 at 23:07:11:
In Reply to: Re: Guardians of the Galaxy
posted by Grant Di Palma on December 04, 2002 at 17:53:23:

Nope.  :)

Prior to MTIO #69, the future of the Marvel Universe was, let's call it, 
Timeline A.  In timeline A, Vance Astrovik grew up to be an astronaut, and 
was given a 1000-year sleeper mission to a distant planet.  In that future, 
Vance became part of the Guardians of the Galaxy.

In MTIO #69, the Guardians traveled back to our time and altered history -- 
triggering young Vance Astro's telekinetic powers ahead of schedule.  This 
act created a new timeline -- timeline B -- that the Marvel Universe would 
follow from then on.

So, after MTIO #69, the future of the Marvel Universe was Timeline B.

The Guardians then went back home to timeline A -- which was now a 
"divergent" timeline, and NOT the "true" future of the Marvel Universe.

Is that any clearer?  The Guardians exist in the year 3000 on timeline A.  
And the Marvel Universe exists in the year 2000 on timeline B.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Guardians of the Galaxy
Posted by Grant Di Palma on December 07, 2002 at 11:09:13:
In Reply to: Re: Guardians of the Galaxy
posted by Jeph! on December 04, 2002 at 23:07:11:

Much, much clearer.  There's something unusual here, that was part of the 
reason I was so confused.  I'm familiar with the idea of alternate universes 
and time travelling to the past altering the future, but in the time travel 
stories I've read or seen, once you change something in the past that alters 
the future, you cannot go back to the future you came from.  That future has 
been replaced by the new one.  That very problem with time travel has been 
one of the main conflicts of many time travel stories, as I'm sure you're 
familiar with.  

The writer and editor of that issue of Marvel Two-In-One probably didn't 
think about how the Guardians' original timeline could still exist after 
they influenced the past.  The Many Worlds theory seems to apply though.  
But that just means that the only reason the Guardians were able to go back 
to a timeline that is almost identical to their original future (using the 
rules of the Many Worlds theory, once you've time travelled and altered 
the future, you can only return to a parallel universe that is ALMOST 
identitical to your own), is because the universe creates parallel universes 
reflecting every possible divergence of every point in time.  And the 
original future they came from would be one of them.  Because it seems 
to me that once their actions in the past changed the course of Vance's 
life, and since the future they came from was along the Marvel timeline, 
and NOT an alternate Marvel universe, that future they came from would be 
gone.  And this leaves the parallel universe that most closely resembles 
their own--the one that exists solely because of the Many Worlds 
principle--as the only place for them if they wanted to go back to the 
future they came from.

On the other hand, they could just use a modified form of the Many Worlds 
theory, and say that everytime the future is altered, it does not disappear 
and become subsumed by the new future.  It simply branches off as its own 
universe, to continue existing as it was, while the universe it branched 
off from continues as well, but with a new future in its path.  It's like 
an act of self-preservation on the part of a unique period of time. There's 
not much difference between this idea and the first one, I guess, but this 
one seems simpler.

I hope that was all clear.  The theoritical physics of this has gotten 
more complicated than the story we started with.

			*	*	*

X-Men: the Hidden Years
Posted by Sidewinder on November 25, 2002 at 12:51:31:
In Reply to: Guardians of the Galaxy
posted by Grant Di Palma on November 25, 2002 at 11:18:31:

> Have they dropped the idea of including their future events into the MU?  
Or just plain ignored it, as with X-Men: The Hidden Years?

Actually, X-Men: The Hidden Years is canon and fits relatively well into 
the existing Marvel Universe.  Sure, there's not a mention to things that 
occured in this series in today's X-Men books - but then again, they don't 
seem to reference a lot of the "past" in the current Marvel books.

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: the Hidden Years
Posted by Paul O'Brien on November 26, 2002 at 11:39:20:
In Reply to: X-Men: the Hidden Years
posted by Sidewinder on November 25, 2002 at 12:51:31:

Besides which, none of the events in Hidden Years are of any great 
consequence anyway.  Like most continuity implant stories, by their nature 
they had to be the sort of events that characters could plausibly not have 
mentioned in the last twenty years' stories.  There's no particular reason 
why any characters WOULD talk about Hidden Years, since it didn't have 
much bearing on their lives.

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: the Hidden Years
Posted by Scott Dietsch on March 12, 2003 at 22:50:58:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: the Hidden Years
posted by Paul O'Brien on November 26, 2002 at 11:39:20:

The only real event of importance to the characters later on would seem 
to be meeting Storm for the first time.

			*	*	*

Re: Guardians of the Galaxy
Posted by xero on March 28, 2003 at 00:18:13:
In Reply to: Guardians of the Galaxy
posted by Grant Di Palma on November 25, 2002 at 11:18:31:

for a long time the guardians universe was the future of the regular MU, as 
was the case in that annual. however vance astro sends a message to his past 
self, then marvel boy, telling him of the future. this alters the future of 
the marvel boy, making the guardian time line a split off from the regular 
MU. its an alternate future,

Xero

			*	*	*

HULK...HUMAN TORCH
Posted by Arthur Stein on November 28, 2002 at 09:15:43:

new entries marked **

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER
TTA 101
H2 102	
**SS 4 (between H2 104 pg 14 & pg 15. This single panel of the Hulk as Loki 
scans for pawns hardly warrants an entry, but the Hercules shot two panels 
later has an entry, so why not?
H2 102
H2 103
. . . . . . 

FF 368
IW 3
**NW 27 
FF 368
SSWP 4-FB
IW 3

HUMAN TORCH/JOHNNY STORM
A@ 12
**M/TALES 198/2
FF 251
..  ..  ..  ..  ..
FF 312
**3SS 10
FF 313-FB
.. .. .. .. .. 
ASM 363
**SLEEP 14
FF 366
..  ..  ..  ..  ..
FF 349
**PPTSS 177 (after FF349 and before WOSM 73. Not sure of positioning as 
regarding Q 20 and S-H2 30)
Q 20
S-H2 30
WOSM 73
..  ..  ..  ..  ..
MK3 41
FF 368
IW 3
**NW 27
FF 368
Q 38 ~ IW 3
FF 368
WM2 13
IW 3 ~ MK3 41

HUNGYR
**BP2 2
NT2 18

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece 
of information engineering!

			*	*	*

Late 60's Mighty Heroes....
Posted by Charlene Roy on November 29, 2002 at 09:40:59:

My father was an animist in late 1960's and I havebeen trying to find copies 
of his work.  He worked on Thor, Hulk, Captain America....if you find anything 
with his name "Robert of Bob Chiarito" on it...could you please contact me?

			*	*	*

Re: Late 60's Mighty Heroes....
Posted by Andy Holcombe on December 02, 2002 at 01:42:52:
In Reply to: Late 60's Mighty Heroes....
posted by Charlene Roy on November 29, 2002 at 09:40:59:

> if you find anything with his name "Robert of Bob Chiarito" on it...could 
you please contact me?

I looked on The Unofficial Handbook of Marvel Comics Creators 
( http://mitglied.lycos.de/maelmill/ ) and didn't find the name listed.  
Quick web searches revealed multiple encounters for both "Robert Chiariot" 
and "Bob Chiarito," but nothing comic book related.  Sorry.

			*	*	*

Re: Late 60's Mighty Heroes....
Posted by bob chiarito on January 20, 2003 at 16:15:32:
In Reply to: Re: Late 60's Mighty Heroes....
posted by Andy Holcombe on December 02, 2002 at 01:42:52:

I'm bob - how can I help you?

			*	*	*

Re: Late 60's Mighty Heroes....
Posted by Jeph! on January 21, 2003 at 10:45:28:
In Reply to: Re: Late 60's Mighty Heroes....
posted by bob chiarito on January 20, 2003 at 16:15:32:

I e-mailed him privately.  Wrong Bob.  :-(

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Ant-Man vs. Giant-Man cont.
Posted by captamr on November 30, 2002 at 19:51:07:

Just another point to my last suggestion to consolidate the character of 
Henry Pym and his many identities - I believed their were ommissions to 
the Ant-Man persona, however they were just included in his Giant-Man 
appearences. Other Ant-Man entries are located in his Goliath and 
YellowJacket categories even though the entries don't include the primary 
super-hero character as in A 93 and Ant-Man's short series in Marvel 
Feature. 

If the project has as one of its functions to be an index for character 
research, as I and I'm sure many other grateful fans utilize it for, then 
perhaps a little clarity would help. If one looks for Ant-Man, one would 
possibly stop at his entry not knowing the characters many incarnations 
and re-incarnations. Once again, I would make use of the slashes(/).

Thanks again,

Charlie

			*	*	*

Goblyn Queen/Madelyne Pryor
Posted by Paul Michalke on November 30, 2002 at 22:37:54:

Why is the Goblyn Queen, aka Madelyne Pryor, not listed in the Chronology?  

			*	*	*

Re: Goblyn Queen/Madelyne Pryor
Posted by Administrator on November 30, 2002 at 23:10:26:
In Reply to: Goblyn Queen/Madelyne Pryor
posted by Paul Michalke on November 30, 2002 at 22:37:54:

She is listed, on the S page, under 
SUMMERS, MADELYNE JENNIFER PRYOR
