Another Hank Pym costume dilemma, of sorts. Help requested!
Posted by Kevin  on December 01, 2002 at 15:59:42:

Well, I was reviewing some of the older entries in certain characters 
chronology lists, (see, I was reviewing placement for my Daredevil analysis 
for Paul, but got sidetracked with this one little stumper...which doesn't 
concern Daredevil, but oh well).

On the Hulk's chronology page, we have Bruce Banner make an appearance in 
Avengers Vol. 3, Issue 10 aka A3 10, and that's in between H2 474, and H3 
#1, (the latest series).  In A3 10, Bruce Banner says that he's looking for 
his wife's killer. But he learns who his wife's killer is in Hulk 474, and 
you have the Avengers issue happening right after.  So I thought "obviously, 
this goes before Hulk 474.  He learns someone killed his wife in Hulk 468.  
In that issue, he had a fake beard and dyed hair.  Then, in Hulk 469, he 
had what appeared to be a true beard.  At the end of that issue, he gets 
sent to Las Vegas, after being hypnotized by the Ringmaster.  In Hulk 470, 
he's in Vegas, with a goatee.  Issues 470 to 474 run smoothly together with 
no interuption.

So I thought the best place for A3 10 to be right after H2 468.

Then, I noticed Hank Pym's costume in A3 10, and in Avengers Forever Issue 1, 
aka AVF 1.  And that's the problem.

In Hulk 470, Cap. America and Wanda, (in a subplot) go pick up a dying Rick 
Jones.  Remember, Hulk 470 to 474, run seemlessly.  We next see Rick Jones 
in a flashback in AVF 1, being examined by Hank Pym in Ant Man costume. Then, 
in the main part of AVF 1, Hank Pym  (in Ant Man costume) along with other 
Avengers, drop off Rick Jones onto the Moon. At the end of that 1st issue, 
Rick Jones wakes up, and is in danger of being assassinated by Immortus. So 
he summons a bunch of Avengers to him from different time periods. From the 
present, (from the time when he just woke up) we see Hank Pym and the Wasp, 
and Hank is wearing a new Goliath Costume. In AVF issue 2, we learn that 
Hank went back down to Earth, appparently put on a new Golaith costume, and 
then him and the Wasp were transported to the Moon. So that's his new 
costume's first appearance.  His next appearance, after the AVF miniseries 
ended, should be A3 10, where we see Hank wearing the new Goliath costume, 
(or is it Giant Man? Sorry if I'm confused). Vision even comments that it's 
new, (he wasn't in AVF 1, so this would logically be the first time he sees 
the new costume).  But the problem is, In A3 10, Bruce Banner, (after 
watching the Avengers on Parade on TV) says he's got to go hunt down his 
wife's killer.  But in Hulk 470, we see Rick Jones getting picked up by the 
Avengers, and since Hulk 470 to 474 run smoothly together... but Hank 
switches costumes after Rick gets picked up in Hulk 470, as shown in AVF 1, 
and Hank's next appearance after AVF is in A3 10, where we see Bruce Banner 
searching for his wife's killer....uh, it's almost a time warp here!

Can someone give correct chronology for Bruce Banner, Hank Pym, and Rick 
Jones, for these issues mentioned: Hulk 468 to 474, AVF 1-12, specifically #1 
though, and A3 10 and 11?

Take note: in A3 10, Bruce Banner doesn't appear to be in disguise, (though 
is it just me, or is his hair color off?) but in Hulk 468 to 474, he's in 
various disguises.

I'd appreciate it if someone could solve this dilemma, and I'll get back to 
examining Daredevil Vol. 2. :)

			*	*	*

Re: Another Hank Pym costume dilemma, of sorts. Help requested!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 01, 2002 at 17:18:01:
In Reply to: Another Hank Pym costume dilemma, of sorts. Help requested!
posted by Kevin  on December 01, 2002 at 15:59:42:

Kevin,

I haven't double-checked this, but I'm under the impression that AVF 1-12 
occur between A3 9 and 10 AND that Hank and Jan were drawn into the adventure 
from the NEAR FUTURE, between A3 12 and 13.

From Hank's perspective, AVF 1-FB occurs between A3 9 and 10 and AVF 1-12 
occur between A3 12 and 13.

I'm not absolutely sure that's right, but would it help?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Another Hank Pym costume dilemma, of sorts. Help requested!
Posted by Kevin  on December 02, 2002 at 08:34:59:
In Reply to: Re: Another Hank Pym costume dilemma, of sorts. Help requested!
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 01, 2002 at 17:18:01:

Hmmm... what you propose for Hank is feasible.

Actually, I just reviewed Hank Pym's chronology listing, and it goes like 
this:

A '98
AVF 1-FB
AVF 1
A3 10
A3 11
AVF 1
AVF 2
AVF 3
AVF 4
AVF 5
AVF 6
AVF 7
AVF 8
AVF 10
AVF 11
AVF 12
IM '98-FB
A3 12

I don't have A'98, so I don't know what costume he was wearing there...but 
I've got all the rest of these issues.  What the administrator came up with 
works:

AVF #1 FB=Hank is in Ant Man costume. He drops Rick Jones off on the moon.

A3 10 and 11= Hank's in his new costume in the parade.

AVF #1= Hank is then transported to the moon with Jan.

While that works, I don't know...see, in the AVF #2 sequence where all the 
Avengers tell where they were plucked out of the timestream, Hank and Jan 
say Hank had just gotten back from the moon, not "Hank had just gotten back 
from the moon, was in a parade, and we were attacked by the Grim Reaper".  
But it still kinda works.

But Hank's costume is small dilemma. It's Bruce Banner I can't place.  I 
can't see where the Bruce Banner appearance in A3 10 goes.  In Hulk 470, 
Rick gets taken with the Avengers, and is next seen in AVF #1.  But Bruce 
Banner has a goatee, (am I spelling that right?) in Hulk 470. And Hulk 470 
to 474 run smoothly together, with no apparent gap. In Hulk 474, he learns 
who his wife's killer is.  So when does he have time to appear in A3 10, 
saying "I must seek out my wife's killer"?

			*	*	*

Re: Another Hank Pym costume dilemma, of sorts. Help requested!
Posted by Jeph! on December 02, 2002 at 11:17:33:
In Reply to: Re: Another Hank Pym costume dilemma, of sorts. Help requested!
posted by Kevin  on December 02, 2002 at 08:34:59:

It seems obvious that AVF #1-FB has to come before A3 #10, because of Hank's 
costumes.  And it seems obvious that H3 #470 has to come before AVF #1-FB, 
because of Rick Jones' situation.

So, expanding the logic, H2 #470 is before A3 #10.

And as you say, #470-474 flow together seamlessly, and Bruce has facial hair 
the whole time.  So we can also expand that logic to show that H2 #474 comes 
before A3 #10.

There's no real way around the logic above, except to assume that Hank Pym's 
been doing some more switching-costumes-back-and-forth.

A3 #10 seemingly HAS to come after H2 #474.

The real question is, why is Bruce saying what he's saying in A3 #10, if he's 
already faced the Abomination?  Is it possible that it can be taken literally?

Not "I must discover the identity of my wife's killer", but "now that I know 
my wife's killer is the Abomination, I must seek him out"?

Literally, "I must seek out my wife's killer [the Abomination, who escaped 
from me when last we fought]."

Which he did, in Hulk v3 #25.

This is one of those cases where the pieces aren't going to fit perfectly -- 
but is this logic acceptable?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Ok, so it's more of a Hulk dilemma....
Posted by Kevin  on December 02, 2002 at 13:34:03:
In Reply to: Re: Another Hank Pym costume dilemma, of sorts. Help requested!
posted by Jeph! on December 02, 2002 at 11:17:33:

I was afraid you were going to propose that A3 10 does indeed happen after 
Hulk 474.  :-)And that's exactly what I was wondering:  "Is this logic 
acceptable?"

While I don't have the exact quote in front of me from A3 10, I took it to 
mean exactly what it says: that Bruce was searching for the person who killed 
his wife.  As in, he didn't know who killed his wife.  

Bruce's next appearance is H3 #1. The new series written by John Byrne.  No 
mention of "I must seek out the Abomination" there.  Unless you conclude 
something like: "It was the smart Hulk who discovered the Abomination was 
responsible, not Banner, so Banner didn't discover it till later".  But 
Banner and the smart Hulk's memories are linked. Unlike stupid Hulk, (where 
after returning to Banner, Banner has no idea what the Stupid Hulk's been 
up to) Smart Hulk and Banner seem to know exactly what's going on in the 
real world.

Yeah, there's a reference in H3 #24 and #25 that Smart Hulk has come to 
grips with the Abomination having killed Betty, but Banner hadn't come to 
grips with it...but is that enough to show in A3 10, that Bruce is still 
obsessed with the person who killed his wife?

The only other possibility I've come up with is that the subplot sequences 
with Rick Jones shown in Hulk 470 happen before Bruck arrives in Las 
Vegas...and before he grows a goatee.  That would give him time to appear 
in A3 10, (where he doesn't have goatee).  Or something like that.  What 
do you think?

			*	*	*

Re: Ok, so it's more of a Hulk dilemma....
Posted by Jeph! on December 02, 2002 at 17:42:22:
In Reply to: Ok, so it's more of a Hulk dilemma....
posted by Kevin  on December 02, 2002 at 13:34:03:

> While I don't have the exact quote in front of me from A3 10, I took it 
to mean exactly what it says: that Bruce was searching for the person who 
killed his wife.  As in, he didn't know who killed his wife.

You're right.  The exact quote is:

"But I can't linger.  I've got a chance to find out who killed my wife -- and 
I've GOT to follow up on it!"

By this, A3 #10 DOES take place before H3 #474, where you say that the 
Abomination reveals his part in it all to the intelligent Hulk.

> But Banner and the smart Hulk's memories are linked. Unlike stupid Hulk, 
(where after returning to Banner, Banner has no idea what the Stupid Hulk's 
been up to) Smart Hulk and Banner seem to know exactly what's going on in 
the real world.

Well, it was revealed in the Hulk v3 series that Smart Hulk IS NOT Banner, 
so there's room for argument -- but, yes, in general it does seem that way.  
So it would be very hard to argue that in A3 #10, smart-Hulk knows who did 
it, but Bruce doesn't.

> The only other possibility I've come up with is that the subplot sequences 
with Rick Jones shown in Hulk 470 happen before Bruck arrives in Las Vegas...

Sorry -- that doesn't work.  In H2 #470, Dr. Spar finds the ailing Rick and 
calls the Avengers -- moments after they leave with him, Rick's phone rings, 
and Dr. Spar hears Marlo calling, telling him that Bruce is in Vegas.  So 
that scene DOES take place within the body of H2 #470.

> ... and before he grows a goatee.

Well, when Bruce turns into the Hulk in #470, his goatee disappears.  The 
Hulk does have stubble in one panel, but in many others he's shown in close-
up and does not.  We know from current Hulk issues that Bruce's and the 
Hulk's hair-lengths are linked.  So perhaps Bruce's goatee is fake?

I only have #470, so I don't know if there are any on-panel transformation 
scenes to refute that, but in #470 he transforms while under a table -- and 
would have had ample room to remove his fake goatte and stash it in his 
pocket.

> That would give him time to appear in A3 10, (where he doesn't have 
goatee).  Or something like that.  What do you think?

Well, here's the option I came up with:

There IS a gap in #470-474 where (according to the scene in A3 #10) the Hulk 
has transformed back to Bruce, still has clothes and glasses (not tattered 
rags), and (perhaps) forgotten to wear his goatee.  We see a cactus in a pot 
outside the store where he watches TV coverage of the Avengers parade, 
implying he's in the southwest.

In H2 #470, there's a gap between pages 11-12, between Bruce's dinner with 
Marlo and his confrontation with her blackmailers.  It seems a good fit -- 
he hasn't Hulked up yet.  Assuming that Bruce's goatee IS fake at this point, 
things could work like this:

H2 #468 - Bruce discovers that his wife was murdered.
H2 #469 - Bruce is post-hypnotically suggested to go to Vegas.
H2 #470 pp.2-11 - Bruce arrives in Vegas and has dinner with Marlo.  Rick 
Jones is picked up by the Avengers.
AVF #1-FB - Hank Pym (in his Ant-Man costume) studies Rick's illness, and 
eventually drops him off on the moon in the care of the Supreme Intelligence.
A3 #10 - Hank debuts his altered Goliath outfit at the Avengers Day parade.  
Bruce watches from a TV in Vegas, thinking about his reasons for being there.
H2 #470, pp.12-22 - Bruce confronts Marlo's blackmailers, Hulks up (losing 
his goatee), and winds up getting defeated by the Circus of Crime.  According 
to you, Kevin, there are no more gaps between here and the end of H2 #474.

Try that on for size.  I think we'll find that it's a lot easier to 
rationalize off any Hulk/Bruce facial hair changes than it will be to 
rationalize off any Hank Pym costume changes.  (Especially if Sean reads 
this!)

Here's a start: we have seen that the smart Hulk can grow facial hair quickly 
through willpower: in H2 #439, he forces himself to grow a full beard in 
seconds.  So it's not completely out of the question for Bruce's goatee in 
#470 to be fake, then to have it become real in #471-#474.  But, like I said, 
I don't have those issues.

Let me know how that logic works for you.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Clarifications on the scenario
Posted by Jeph! on December 03, 2002 at 01:06:50:
In Reply to: Re: Ok, so it's more of a Hulk dilemma....
posted by Jeph! on December 02, 2002 at 17:42:22:

I did a little re-reading of all the books in question, and I discovered 
some misconceptions we've been carrying through this thread.

First off, Avengers Forever #1 - the part Kevin has been referring to as a 
flashback, pages 7-13, is NOT a flashback.  There IS a flashback, on p. 9 
panel 1, to Hank Pym and Hank McCoy studying Rick, but that's it -- the 
sequence where they bring him to the moon is set in the issue's present.

Also, in AVF #2, the Wasp says "we both remember Hank going up to the moon 
not long ago".  And in A3 #13, Hank mentions "what we just went through in 
the Destiny War" -- so it seems that the proper place for AVF #1-12 in their 
chronologies is closer to A3 #12-13 than it is to A3 #9-10, and Russ' 
current placement, I think, should stand.

Also, almost the entirety of Hulk #470 is an extended flashback, narrated 
by the Clown, who is being interviewed by Samson on page one (and sporadically 
throughout the issue).  The story continues into Hulk #471, but I'm unclear 
if THIS story is told in "extended-narrative-flashback" format.  Either way, 
it seems clear that H2 #470 p.1 takes place after the Clown's capture in H2 
#471.

And, finally, A3 #10-11 are a two-part story taking place over the same day.

So, making these relatively cosmetic changes to the scenario, we're left with:

H2 #468 - Bruce discovers that his wife was murdered, but not by whom.
H2 #469 - Bruce is post-hypnotically suggested to go to Vegas.
H2 #470 pp.2-11-FB - Bruce arrives in Vegas and has dinner with Marlo.  Rick 
Jones is picked up by the Avengers.
AVF #1-FB - Hank Pym (as Ant-Man) and the Beast study Rick's condition.
AVF #1 - Hank Pym (as Ant-Man) drops Rick off on the moon in the care of the 
Supreme Intelligence.
A3 #10-11 - Hank debuts his altered Goliath outfit at the Avengers Day 
parade.  Bruce watches from a TV in Vegas, thinking about his reasons for 
being there.  (And not wearing his phony goatee.)  The Avengers then fight 
the Grim Reaper, and Wonder Man returns to life.
H2 #470, pp.12-22-FB - Bruce confronts Marlo's blackmailers, Hulks up (losing 
his goatee), and winds up getting defeated by the Circus of Crime.
H2 #471(-FB?) - Stuff happens,  I dunno.  It ends with the Clown's capture.
H2 #470 (p.1, various panels throughout the issue, and narration) - the Clown 
relates the events of H2 #470-FB to Doc samson.
(H2 #471 - possibly the Clown continues narrating?  I don't know.)
H2 #472-474 - an allegedly gap-less story arc in which the Hulk learns that 
the Abomination was behind Betty's murder.  (He may at some point have used 
the power of the intelligent Hulk to quick-grow a real goatee -- again, I 
don't have the issues.)

Try that, Kevin.  Anyone else?  Suggestions?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Clarifications on the scenario
Posted by Kevin  on December 03, 2002 at 08:54:20:
In Reply to: Clarifications on the scenario
posted by Jeph! on December 03, 2002 at 01:06:50:

Hey, thanks for the analysis!  What you've come up with works, and it's 
probably what I'll end up endorsing, (if this were put to a vote or 
something).  I'll go home tonight, and review all the Hulk issues in 
question, to double check all this, and post more later, or tomorrow.

Jeph said:

>Here's a start: we have seen that the smart Hulk can grow facial hair quickly 
through willpower: in H2 #439, he forces himself to grow a full beard in 
seconds. So it's not completely out of the question for Bruce's goatee in 
#470 to be fake, then to have it become real in #471-#474. 

Hey, I have seem to recall that old Hulk issue #439. I thought he just glued 
a fake beard to himself or something.  But then, if it was fake, the ensuing 
battle with Thor probably would have knocked it off his face.

But yeah, as far as the latest issues, we do see Bruce Banner's hair being 
matched by the hair on the Hulk. Banner's practically bald, and thus the 
Hulk is practically bald.  

This confuses me, cause I could have swore in the old days, it was different.  
In the old days, I thought when Banner became the Hulk, he lost any facial 
hair he might have had, (Banner's sported beards before...but maybe I'm 
thinking of fake beards).  

I thought that it didn't matter whether Banner had facial hair or not, the 
Hulk persona is subcounsiouly "fixed" to how it's supposed to look.  That 
way, when he transforms into Stupid Hulk, he get the "Bowl haircut" I often 
see some artist give stupid Hulk, and when he turns into the Gray Hulk, it's 
his subconsious that's making his skin tone change to Gray.

Oh well, I'll post more later.  And Paul, if you're reading this, you're DD 
analysis is coming soon. :-0

			*	*	*

Some Hulk Analysis....
Posted by Kevin  on December 04, 2002 at 09:42:22:
In Reply to: Re: Clarifications on the scenario
posted by Kevin  on December 03, 2002 at 08:54:20:

I went home and reviewed those Hulk issues in question last night.  Part of 
the problem for me is when I read these the first time around, I kinda just 
glanced through them. The story didn't really interest me at the time, (I 
guess I was just mad they murdered Betty).  So I glanced through them again 
last night, and here's what I've come up with.

Hulk 466= Betty dies
Hulk 467= Told by Rick Jones in the distant future when he's old. It's 
basically his reflections on "the day that Betty died".  In the Flashback 
from Rick's point of view, we learn that Banner in shock, turns into Hulk 
and escapes the army's base.  Betty is buried. Most of the FF and the 
Avengers attend the funeral.  At the end of that issue, we learn Gen. Ross 
kept Betty cryogenically preserved.  He buried an empty coffin.

Hulk 468=Banner mourns. Then, Rick Jones convinces him to investigate the 
death of Betty, saying he musn't blame himself till he knows for certain 
how Betty died. All's they know at the present is that it was Gamma radiation 
poisoning, (thus, Gen. Ross blames Banner).  Banner sneaks back on base with 
dyed blond hair, and a fake beard, (we see it's fake in this issue).  He 
uses the lab to discover that he's not the one responsible, but someone 
else is:  In his sudden anger, he transforms into the Hulk before he can 
deduce which Gamma creature is responsible. He crashes through the base 
and leaves.  We the audience get to see the results of the computers 
analysis: it was the Abomination.

Hulk 469= Happens sometime later. Banner is sporting a beard, but it might 
be a fake.  Banner's on the run, but he gets captured by an evil corporation, 
run by some "supervillian arms dealor" named Devlin Deangelo.  He forces 
Banner to work on the Super Adaptiod, which needs fixing for a would be 
client.

Banner is kept there for days, possibly weeks, and they know who he is, so 
why keep a fake beard on? This seems to indicate it's a real beard.  Finally, 
Banner escapes,  but the Super Adaptiod malfunctions, and chases after 
Banner. Banner is scared, and thus turns into Hulk.  We can't see Banner's 
face as he transforms, so I suppose it's possible he took off the fakebeard. 
The Hulk, clearly doesn't have a beard on though.

At epilogue at end of issue, the Ringmaster corners Banner in a restaurant, 
(Banner's sporting that same beard again) and Ringmaster hypnotizes him 
into going to Vegas. Banner hypnotically believes he's going there in search 
of his wife's killer, but Ringmaster plans on using him in a Vendetta 
against the Clown and the Circus of Crime

470= Banner arrives in Vegas, now sporting a goatee. I got news for you: 
the goatee is real, and he's indeed wearing it from 470 to 474. I see 
several instances over the next few issues where they show Banner 
transforming: the goatee sorta...evaporates, as the Hulk takes control of 
the body. So, yes, it appears even if Banner does have facial hair, the 
facial hair disappears when Banner transforms into the Hulk.

Rick is given to the Avengers. Dr. Spar heads to Vegas, after hearing Bruce 
is there.  

At end of Hulk 470, Hulk is knocked unconsious by the Circus of Crime

Hulk 471= yes, Jeph, the narration by the Clown continues throughout this 
issue.

Marlo and Dr. Spar meet up, and learn that bets are being placed whether 
Hulk will tear up the town or not. They learn the Circus of Crime has 
Banner:  Banner is shown unconsious tied up in a Circus animal cage, with 
a goatee.  Dr. Spar injects him with pure adrenaline, (she wants Banner 
to escape before Gen. Ross learns that Banner's there).  Banner Hulks up, 
crashes through Vegas, (which is what the Clown wanted, sorta) Hulk knocks 
out the Circus members, who end up in police custody, (which of course 
isn't what the Clown wanted).  The last two pages, on which the Clown's 
narration no longer exists, shows Banner out in the desert, without shirt 
or shoes.  Apparently, he changed back a little while back, and is lost 
in the desert. The narration says the hypnotizm has worn off, and he has 
realized he was in Vegas for no reason, and is no closer to finding out 
who killed his wife. He's contemplating letting himself die of thirst out 
here in the desert, and thus joining Betty in death.  Then, something 
from space crashes next to him. It's an old, old Hulk foe, who's come to 
offer friendship

Hulk 472= This issue has some gaps, so I'll describe the issue a little 
more indepth.  Perhaps there's a gap here we can use to have Banner appear 
in A3 10.  

Starts off where we left off last issue. The creature calls himself Qnax, 
but he is known as "The Xantarean".  I think he's in the MCP as that. He's 
an old Hulk foe from way long ago, (an editor's caption reads "Tales to 
Astonish #73 and 74). But he's here to ask for Banner's help.

The story cuts to Gen. Ross' base, where he says "3 days ago, the Hulk tore 
up the Vegas strip".  Devlin Deangelo, the arms dealer, shows up at Ross' 
base, and wants to offer Ross his technology: a Gamma tracer, to track down 
the Hulk, (Deangelo holds a grudge against Banner for escaping from him, 
and ruining the Super Adaptiod).  Ross reluctantly takes him up on his offer.

Story cuts to Rome, Italy.  Banner and Qnax are there, at one of the Leader's 
old underground labratories, (that Leader seems to have had bases everywhere).  
Banner says they "snuck on an army jet" to get across the Atlantic.  Qnax 
wants Banner to fix an old teleporter that apparently the Leader had in this 
base, (all this was supposedly last seen in Tales to Astonish issues 73 and 
74, I suppose).  Qnax has asked Banner to help him save his race, the 
Xantareans, from some sort of virus or something. To do that, Qnax must seek 
out something called "The Ultimate Machine" which lies on the homeworld of 
the Watcher, (or one of the homeworld's of the Watchers, there's several 
Watcher's after all, spread around the galaxy). With the knowledge from "The 
Ultimate Machine" he'll learn how to save his people. Qnax explains this to 
him in Rome, and asks Banner to accompany him. Banner, intrigued byt this 
Ultimate Machine, hopes to learn through it who killed his wife.  So he 
agrees.

The story cuts back Gen. Ross' base, where Ross says "It's been two days, 
and your Gamma trace hasn't located the Hulk yet. (I guess that's cause he's 
in Rome).  But then out of the blue, they get a signal, from a small town in 
Nevada.  The army rushes out there, only to find out it's the Abomination 
who is tearing up the town.

Banner turns into the Smart Hulk, and accompanies Qnax through the teleporter 
to the Watcher's homeworld.

Hulk 473= I won't relay on the details, but Hulk and Qnax make it to the 
Watcher's world, and help the Watcher deal with a problem, and prepare to 
enter "The Ultimate Machine".  Back on Earth, Ross goes into the town 
alone, and confronts the Abomination.  Emil, (that's the Abomination's real 
name) admits to poisoning Betty to Gen. Ross.

Hulk 474= Banner and Qnax enter "The Ultimate Machine" and have 
'enlightenment'.  Banner comes to grips with his life as Hulk, (yeah, like 
that lasts) but doesn't learn who killed Betty. The Watcher sends Qnax and 
the Hulk back to their respective homeworlds.  Hulk arrives just in time 
to hear Emil's confession. At first he's made, but when he learns that what 
Emil wants is for Hulk to fight him to the death, he tells Emil he's not 
going to fight him over it.  Emil leaves the scene, distressed. He's next 
seen feeling rejected in Hulk Vol. 3, #24.  Gen. Ross let's Banner go, 
(Hulk transforms back to Banner after Emil leaves).  The End.

So is the gap of a few days in Hulk #472 enough time for Banner to shave, 
appear in A3 10, hop a jet to Rome, grow back a goatee for when we next 
see him in Rome, and finish up this run of issues?  I don't know... in A3 
10, he seems deadset on finding his wife, while in Hulk 472, he seems to 
have temp. given up, and has decided to go help the Xantarean with his 
problems.  But when in Rome, he learns that he could learn who killed his 
wife through this "ultimate machine"...well, I suppose it's possible.  
Still, since the Goatee is real, this gap may be better than a gap in Hulk 
#470 that you proposed Jeph. Still, depending on how long you make that 
gap in #470, that works as well.

Let me know your ideas.

			*	*	*

Re: Some Hulk Analysis....
Posted by Jeph! on December 04, 2002 at 10:28:08:
In Reply to: Some Hulk Analysis....
posted by Kevin  on December 04, 2002 at 09:42:22:

Kevin --

Good stuff, thanks.

I'm still pushing for the gap I originally pointed out, though, for these 
reasons:

In A3 #10, Banner is convinced that he has a chance to find out who killed 
his wife.  The only time he's under that impression is in H2 #469-471, 
BEFORE the Ringmaster's hypnotism wears off, and H2 #472-474, starting 
AFTER he arrives in Rome.

Now, you point out that Banner's goatee appears to be real, even though he 
loses it when he Hulks up.  This at least is semi-consistent: in the current 
Hulk run we see that Bruce/Hulk's HEAD hair length is linked, but from this 
series we see that their FACIAL hair length is not.  Oh well.

So, yes, Bruce's goatee is real -- and since he's tied up in the cage in 
#471, we're going to assume that it's real from that point on (or from H2 
#470 p.12-on, where the sequence of events begins).

So -- in the five-day gap in #472, is there space for his A3 #10 appearance?  
Given Banner's motivations (in that his search for the killer is renewed 
only AFTER he learns about the Ultimate Machine), the story seems to imply 
that only two days pass from the point when he starts repairing the 
teleporter.  But, since the Ross and Banner segments aren't necessarily 
directly linked, he could have had five days to be in Rome.  Is that enough 
time to shave, appear, then grow it back?

Yes, I suppose.  But if he's in one of the Leader's old hideouts in Rome, 
why in A3 #10 would he be watching the Avengers Day Parade in a storefront 
window?  Why not a high-tech Leader monitor?

And why would this Roman storefront be broadcasting the coverage in English?

And why is there a small potted cactus at Bruce's feet?

No, I think it's better for all concerned if the A3 #10 appearance stayed 
in Las Vegas, as the art implies it to be.

Does Bruce have time in H2 #470 to shave, then grow back, a goatee?  Yeah, 
probably -- no mention at all is made of time.  He could have been in Las 
Vegas for quite some time, figuring out exactly how to deal with Marlo's 
blackmailers before he made his move.  He could have shaved, then 
reconsidered once he realized that he needed to look "tough" in order to 
deal with the thugs and grown it back.

I don't know -- both gaps are acceptable, I suppose, and we're going to 
have to "invent" a period where he shaved for no reason in either case ... 
but in terms of Bruce's motivations and the artwork, I'd say the gap in H2 
#470 still fits best.

Your thoughts?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Some Hulk Analysis....
Posted by Kevin  on December 04, 2002 at 14:08:08:
In Reply to: Re: Some Hulk Analysis....
posted by Jeph! on December 04, 2002 at 10:28:08:

Well, I don't think that scene could have happened in Rome either.  What I 
meant was, before they hop that jet to Rome, they're still in the Nevada 
area.  I thought, maybe, he could have found his way into another town, 
shaved, appeared in A3 10, then caught a jet, and on the way over to Rome, 
grow a goatee.  Problem with that:  Ross says 3 days has passed since Hulk 
tore up Vegas.  Then the story immediately cuts to Rome, where we see Banner 
with a goatee.  3 days is cutting it kinda short.  

So 3 days pass while Banner gets to Rome, then 2 days pass fixing the 
teleporter.

So yeah, if we were to make that gap long enough in Hulk 470, that would 
indeed give Banner time to shave, appear in A3 10, grow a goatee back, and 
finish up issue 470.  Still, that hypnotism lasted a long time then, didn't 
it?  I'm inclined to go with your choice though, but either way presents 
minor problems.  I just don't like breaking apart an issue, if need be, but 
I think this time it's possibly for the best.  You're on the "Board" for 
this website now, you decide! :-)

			*	*	*

Re: Some Hulk Analysis....
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 04, 2002 at 21:51:45:
In Reply to: Re: Some Hulk Analysis....
posted by Kevin  on December 04, 2002 at 14:08:08:

Once you do decide, it would be great if you could re-post the final order, 
with the appropriate (abridged) notes that summarize the rationale for the 
chronology.  I'd like to file that away for later use (extending the infamous 
calendar back).  Thanks.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Final Answers?
Posted by Jeph! on December 05, 2002 at 00:30:53:
In Reply to: Re: Some Hulk Analysis....
posted by Kevin  on December 04, 2002 at 14:08:08:

> What I meant was, before they hop that jet to Rome, they're still in the 
Nevada area.  I thought, maybe, he could have found his way into another 
town, shaved, appeared in A3 10, then caught a jet, and on the way over to 
Rome, grow a goatee.

Well, the problem with that is, as I pointed out, that at that point in 
Banner's chronology he WASN'T under the impression that he knew where to 
find his wife's killer -- and his dialogue in A3 #10 shows that he IS under 
that impression.

If he IS in Nevada, as the art implies, then the only time he's under the 
impression that he knew where to find his wife's killer was from #470-471, 
before he breaks out of the Ringmaster's hypnotism.

> So yeah, if we were to make that gap long enough in Hulk 470, that would 
indeed give Banner time to shave, appear in A3 10, grow a goatee back, and 
finish up issue 470.  Still, that hypnotism lasted a long time then, didn't 
it?

Yep -- but hey, it's hypnotism!  (Well, actually post-hypnotic suggestion.)

I guess my thought process is, whatever we decide, we then need to give 
Banner time enough to grow back his goatee.  We have two choices -- one, 
H2 #472, with a set timeframe of two days, and the other, H2 #470, which 
is open-ended.  I lean towards #470.

Also, there's the question of motivation -- if he DID shave it off, why 
grow it back?  After all, he only grew it in the FIRST place because he 
was under captivity.

If we go with the #472 gap, we can't even argue that he grew it back as a 
disguise, as Bruce is hiding in a bunker in a foriegn land.  There's really 
no obvious motivation for him to grow it back, after shaving it off.

If we go with the #470 gap, we can argue that he grew it back to look 
"tough", when dealing with Marlo's blackmailers.  Again, advantage #470.

> You're on the "Board" for this website now, you decide! :-)

Eh -- as I leaned back before I was on the board, it's not a question of 
heirarchy -- the most rational explanation trumps all, whether it's me, 
you, or some guy who's never posted before.

But, since you're letting me "make the final decision" (which, honestly, 
is Russ' call), I'm going with the gap in #470.

Can anybody mount a better argument for a DIFFERENT placing?

-Jeph!

Paul, I'll post the annotated chronology notes for this in a while.

			*	*	*

The End-as far as I'm concerned.
Posted by Kevin  on December 05, 2002 at 14:28:08:
In Reply to: Final Answers?
posted by Jeph! on December 05, 2002 at 00:30:53:

I agree with you: your gap is probably the most logical. Thus, I'm content 
that the matter is settled.  Thanks Jeph and Paul!  

Unless someone else opposes...

> > What I meant was, before they hop that jet to Rome, they're still in the 
Nevada area.  I thought, maybe, he could have found his way into another 
town, shaved, appeared in A3 10, then caught a jet, and on the way over to 
Rome, grow a goatee.

> Well, the problem with that is, as I pointed out, that at that point in 
Banner's chronology he WASN'T under the impression that he knew where to 
find his wife's killer -- and his dialogue in A3 #10 shows that he IS under 
that impression.

> If he IS in Nevada, as the art implies, then the only time he's under the 
impression that he knew where to find his wife's killer was from #470-471, 
before he breaks out of the Ringmaster's hypnotism.

Yeah, your right:  He seems only to be content with helping Qnax with his 
problems...until he learns more about this "Ultimate machine" while in 
Rome.  Then he's motivated by desire to solve Betty's murder.  So that adds 
more credit to the "gap" explanation in 470.

> > So yeah, if we were to make that gap long enough in Hulk 470, that would 
indeed give Banner time to shave, appear in A3 10, grow a goatee back, and 
finish up issue 470.  Still, that hypnotism lasted a long time then, didn't 
it?

> Yep -- but hey, it's hypnotism!  (Well, actually post-hypnotic suggestion.)

More thoughts on this hypnotism: maybe the hypnotism lasted so long, (enough 
time for him to shave and grow it back) because he was calm...as Banner.  
Maybe after he Hulked up, (twice, once in Hulk 470 and quickly later in 471, 
the adrenaline surges caused the hypnotism to leave.  

So like I said: the gap theory in Hulk 470 is best. The End.

			*	*	*

Re: The End-as far as I'm concerned.
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 05, 2002 at 18:10:08:
In Reply to: The End-as far as I'm concerned.
posted by Kevin  on December 05, 2002 at 14:28:08:

> I agree with you: your gap is probably the most logical. Thus, I'm content 
that the matter is settled.  Thanks Jeph and Paul!  

Don't thank me.  Jeph deserves the credit for this...

--Paul

			*	*	*

HUNTARA...ICEMAN...IKARIS
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 02, 2002 at 10:20:35:

new entries marked **

HUNTARA
FF 379
**FF 382
FF 383

ICEMAN/ROBERT "BOBBY" DRAKE
XF 60
==> NM 96-BTS  I think this should be just NM 86. not BTS. Icemans 
appearance (pg 11 panel 5) is in real time continuity
XF 61
. . . . .
X 46
**X 47
X 48

IKARIS/IKE HARRIS [ETERNAL]
**ASM@ 23/4 ~ CA@ 11-FB  
E:HEROD-FB
. . . . .
E 6
**E 8
E 9

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent 
piece of information engineering! 

			*	*	*

typo...
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 02, 2002 at 10:25:51:
In Reply to: HUNTARA...ICEMAN...IKARIS
posted by Arthur Stein on December 02, 2002 at 10:20:35:

> ICEMAN/ROBERT "BOBBY" DRAKE
> ==> NM 96-BTS  I think this should be just NM 86. not BTS. Icemans 
appearance (pg 11 panel 5) is in real time continuity

typo:  the reference to NM 86 should read NM 96 (I was just commenting that 
I didn't think it was a BTS entry)....damn sticky keyboard

			*	*	*

Re: HUNTARA...ICEMAN...IKARIS
Posted by Administrator on December 02, 2002 at 18:38:32:
In Reply to: HUNTARA...ICEMAN...IKARIS
posted by Arthur Stein on December 02, 2002 at 10:20:35:

> HUNTARA
> FF 379
> **FF 382
> FF 383

For the record, FF 382 is part of the Gap and, coincidentally, was added to 
the Project in yesterday's update.

			*	*	*

apologies
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 03, 2002 at 12:33:10:
In Reply to: Re: HUNTARA...ICEMAN...IKARIS
posted by Administrator on December 02, 2002 at 18:38:32:

many apologies. I have been excluding 1993 on in my research but somehow 
this one just slipped by me.

			*	*	*

Shalla Bal appearances
Posted by Paul Burgon on December 03, 2002 at 13:11:34:

I was looking at the entry for Shalla Bal, and I noticed that her appearances 
in the flashback in Silver Surfer (first series) #1 (her introduction) and 
issue #6 of the same series were not included

Paulb

			*	*	*

Daredevil Vol. 2 Analysis, pt. 1!
Posted by Kevin  on December 04, 2002 at 13:42:23:

Here is the start of the references for Daredevil Vol. 2. I decided the best 
way to go about this (at least for the early issues, which are a few years 
old now) is to give a plot synopsis for each story arc, (as opposed to a 
synopsis for each individual issue). Ill give you references for each issue, 
as promised.

I heard discussion months ago from the Administrator that Daredevil, because 
the first 15 or so issues arrived so slowly, that the events of Daredevil 
would be considered as happening months ago, or months behind other 
mainstream events.  It actually makes since.  As of October of 2002, we 
should have been up to issue 50, but instead, were on issue 38 or 39.  But 
I think its possible that the month a story arc starts is the place where 
the story starts.  So to help with timeline placement, for each storyarc 
that begins, Ive included a list of other Marvel comics that were published 
the month that Story Arc begins.  DD doesnt have a lot of other comic 
appearances, unlike most other mainstream Marvel characters. I guess thats 
cause he lives in his own little universe.  But maybe this list will help 
with placement.  

DD Vol 2, Issue 1-8 Written by Kevin Smith Drawn by Joe Queseda

Story synopsis:  Its been 6 months since the last Daredevil issue.  Karen 
Page has dumped Matt to go pursue a radio job out in Californa.  Matt is 
having a crisis of faith.  Then, a young woman drops off a baby in his 
office, saying she didnt have sex, and the baby is the messiah, and that 
angels told her Matt was Daredevil, and that Matt would protect her baby.  
She then runs away leaving the baby in Matts care.  Matt, of course, is 
shocked.  

Then, a man calling himself Nicholas Macabes appears in his office, saying 
that the baby is the Antichrist, and must be killed.  Foggy has an affair 
with a lady, who ends up murdered, and he gets the blame, and Karen Page 
shows up on his doorstep saying she has AIDS.  Matt is warned that the baby 
is the Antichrist, and that that is the reason why his friends are suffering.  
All the while, Matt feels himself being disoriented by all this, and ends up 
acting crazy around the baby, till the Black Widow begins to think Matts 
insane.

Matt, after being injured by some black suit guys who want the baby, ends up 
on the doorstep of his mothers nunnery, (yes, his moms a nun).  He leaves 
the baby with the nuns, and goes and consults with Dr. Strange, to see if 
this baby is either the Antichrist or Jesus Reborn.  Dr. Strange learns that 
Matt has been poisoned, and cures Matt of his mental illness. He says he 
senses nothing that reveals the baby is anything other than a normal baby.  
But just to be sure, they consult a demon: Mephisto, who reminds Daredevil 
that when Jesus returns to earth, it will be in the form of a man, not as a 
baby.  Matt slaps himself on the head.  Mephisto, (before being shunt back 
into hell) gloats to Daredevil that someone is causing him great pain right 
now at that instant.  Daredevil figues out his mothers in danger, and 
rushes back to the nunnery to find Bullseye is there.  He was hired by the 
Nicholas Macabes guy to get the baby. Bullseyes killed many of the nuns, 
and he basically kicks DDs butt.  Karen Page appears, tries to prevent 
Bullseye from making off with the baby, and Bullseye ends up killing her.  

We see Matt as being borderline suicidal in the next issue. But the memories 
of Karen urges him to continue on without her.  He finds out where Bulleyes 
taken the baby: To Macabes corporate building.  DD storms the building, 
encountering fake ninjas, and grisly hellish landscape...but DD begins to 
figure out these are all lies...all special effects.  He gets to the top 
floor to find Macabes is actually Mysterio, Spideys old nemesis.  Mysterio 
reveals that he was released from prison some time last year, and was told 
by the prison doctors that he had a brain tumor and lung cancer.  Its from 
all that smoke and special effect chemicals hes played with over the 
years.  Hes given a year to live a most.  Mysterio decided to go out with 
a bang, though.  So he wanted vengeance on Spiderman, but he saw in the 
papers that whoever was Spiderman, was not the Spiderman he knew, (this was 
during the clone saga).  So he turned his sights on DD, whom hes fought 
before on occasion.  And he decided to drive DD insane, to show the world 
hes a true special effects master.  He pays Kingpin money to reveal to 
him who  DD is, and then goes about plotting, convinced he can make DD go 
insane through his religion, (or something like that).  He admits that 
hes not responsible for the babies being murdered in the hospitals, but 
decided to weave it into his plotline, using the babies death as references 
to Herod killing the babies during the time when Jesus was born. He 
explains that Foggy was framed, and Karen was told she had AIDS, though 
she didnt really.  And Mysterio wants DD to kill him in a fit of rage. 
But DD refuses, and does something worse to Mysterio.  He calls his 
driving DD insane scheme pathetic, and subpar.  In a short little speech, 
DD shows Mysterio that hes done nothing new. Hes not a great actor or 
special effects man whatsoever.  Mysterio lets DD have the baby back, and 
then kills himself with a gun.

The baby gets put up for adoption, (the mother was murdered by Mysterio), 
Karen is buried, DD and Spiderman sit down for a talk, comparing the lost 
loved ones in their lives.  Spidey convinces DD that they as superheros,  
still do good work out there. After all, DD saved that baby.

Foggy and Matt also quit Rosalind Sharpes law office, and with Karen 
insurance money, (which she left to him in her will) they set about building 
a new law firm for themselves.  The End.

DD#1 Appearances:  Matt Murdock, Foggy Nelson, Rosalind Sharpe, Mysterio, 
(in disguise),  Peter Parker BTS.

References:  Published in Sept. of 98.  What else was published that month:  
A3 10, IM3 10,  FF3 11, CA3 11, Xmen 81, Uncanny Xmen 361, Black Panther 1,  
Hulk 470, Thunderbolts 20, PP:SM 97, Punisher #1, (this is the miniseries 
where Punisher is turned into an Angel/Demon servant of God. Dont ask).  
Two months later, ASM and PP:SM would be rebooted with issue #1s.  

Other References: Foggy is referenced as dating Liz Osborn.  

Peter Parker is behind the scenes.  Matts sect. says Mr. Murdock, its a 
Mr. Parker from the Bugle on line three.  He has those photos you requested, 
of you and Mrs. Page from the Good Will Hunting Premeire.  Would you like 
them sent over?  

In the prologue segment on the first night, some babies are murdered in a 
hospital ward.  The story then cuts to the next day, when the main story 
starts.  Matt Murdock says that its been six months since Karen Page broke 
up with him. Karen was last seen in the pages of DD in DD 375.  So its 
been 6 months since DD 375.

DD2 Issue 2

Appearances:  Matt Murdock, Mysterio (in disguise), The Black Widow, Foggy 
Nelson, Karen Page.  

References:  DD2 2 happens the day after DD2 1.  Theres a full moon seen 
in this issue. Careful, I think Joe Queseda loves Full moons.  Its 
referenced that lots of babies have been murdered in hospitals over the last 
few weeks.

DD2 Issue 3

Appearances:  Matt Murdock, Foggy Nelson, Rosalind Sharpe, Karen Page, 
Mysterio, (in disguise).

References:  Matt says that Karen dumped him 6 months ago.  DD2 3 happens 
the next day after DD2 2.  Matt quits Rosalinds law firm after Foggy is 
thrown out of the firm, (after hes charged with murder, falsely).  

DD2 Issue 4

Appearances:  Matt Murdock aka Daredevil, Black Widow, DDs mom, (the nun...
is there an entry for her on the MCP?), Karen Page, Mysterio, (in disguise), 
Bullseye.

References:  Picks up on the same night where we left off in issue #3.  DD 
lands at the step of him moms nunnery. 2 days pass there, while DD heals.  

DD2 Issue 5

Appearances:  Daredevil, Dr. Strange, Wong, Mephisto, DDs mom, Bullseye, 
Karen Page.

References:  Could happen days later, but I suspect its the following day 
after DD2 4.  1 day passes while DD visits Dr. Strange and consults with him 
on mystic matters.  Karen dies at the end of this issue.

DD2 Issue 6

Appearances:  Daredevil, Kingpin, Mysterio, Ben Urick, (BTS: He wrote the 
newscolumn that Kingpin is shown reading on Pages death).

References:  Full moon seen in Issue 6.  The massacres of babies in hospitals 
shown in issue 1 ir referenced as happening last week.  Its shown snowing 
this issue.  Theres a Christmas Tree in the lobby of Mysterios Corporate 
building.

So I guess its December?

DD2 Issue 7

Appearances:  Daredevil, Mysterio, (and Kingpin in a flashback to some months 
ago, where Mysterio convinces him to reveal DDs secret identity to him).

References:  Mysterio says he was released from Ravencroft and given 1 year 
to live at most.  This happened months ago then.  In the flashbacks, as he 
starts plotting his going out with a bang scheme, he looks at newspaper 
headlines. The photos in the newspaper show the Spiderclone on the front 
page.  

Mysterio kills himself at the end of this issue.

DD2 Issue 8

Appearances:  Daredevil, Spiderman, Mary Jane Watson Parker, J. Jonah 
Jameson, All four Fantastic Four members, Rosalind Sharpe, Foggy Nelson, 
Liz Osborn, (shown in a flashback visiting Foggy while he was in jail, 
sometime between issue 3 and issue 8), Black Widow, and DDs Mom.

References:  Theres a full moon in the sky above the place where Spidey and 
DD go to talk.  This issue is referenced as happening 2 days after the last 
issue.  It starts the day of Karen Pages funeral.  After the funeral, we 
cut to the next day, when Foggy gets released from prison.  Later that night, 
Spidey and DD meet to discuss Mysterios death.  The next day, Murdock and 
Nelson decide to start up a new law firm, with just themselves, no Rosalind 
Sharpe.  Murdocks got the money to start construction on it.  Then, the 
next day, were shown DD visiting the baby in the hospital.  He wants the 
baby to be named Karen. Hes then shown in the confession box in church. In 
other words, hes regained his faith.

As you can see, this storyline happens over a little more than a week.  I 
dont see why on DDs chronology page, we have a break right in the middle 
of the story, which involves A3 10 and 11, and ASM 2 issue 1.  Before ASM2 1, 
there was a few months gap where Peter Parker didnt wear the costume, (as 
referenced in ASM2 1).  So if A3 10 and 11 are one of Spideys last 
appearances before he temporarily retires for months, thats a gap of months 
youve placed right in the middle of a DD storyline.  

I cant exactly say where the A3 10 and 11 appearances go, (DD was in those 
issues with Spidey), but I think the gaps of months in both the DD book, 
(remember: 6 months supposedly passed since Vol.1) and the gap in SPidey, 
well...the gaps should probably come at the same time.

I think, since Daredevil makes a thought to himself in ASM2 1, that he hasnt 
heard from Spidey in months, that this appearance of DD happens before DD2 1. 
Why? Because Peter Parker makes a BTS appearance in DD2 1.  The sect. of 
Matts says hes on line 3, with the photos of Matt and Karen at the Good 
Will Hunting Premiere.  Since DD says he hasnt seen Spidey, (aka Peter) in 
months in ASM2 #1, its obvious theyve had contact with each other by the 
time DD2 1 rolls around.  Matt makes all sorts of Im missing Karen 
comments in DD2 1, so I suspect he wanted Peter to send him some photos of 
him and Karen at the Good Will Hunting Premeire 6 months back, so he could 
look fondly at the photos of him and Karen.  Yeah, its a throw away line, 
but you have to take it into account somehow.

DD2 Issues 9-15

Written by David Mack Drawn by Joe Queseda

Synopsis:  This takes place a few months later. In Issue 9, we see the 
progression of time, time enough for Matt and Foggys new Law office to be 
built. Most of that time Matt spent moping around thinking of Karen, 
apparently.

On the day his new law office opens, a man with a speech impediment comes 
in asking Matt and Foggy for help. He says he use to work for the Kingpin 
as a janitor, and he stumbled across some of Kingpins secret files.  As 
they talk, a bullet shoots through the window and kills the man.  The 
bullet grazes Matts face as well. Matt quickly puts on his mask, and goes 
outside to take out the assassin, which is turns out is assasins: a couple 
of psychotic twins, called the Murphy Brothers.   When DD captures them, 
one of them is on the phone to the Kingpin, saying everything went okay.

Matt hits the button on the phone to dial back the last number called. The 
Kingpin answeres, and Matt tells him hes going down for this assassination.  
Kinpin doesnt like these threats, and concocts a new plan to ruin Matt.  
It seems Kingpin was the Godfather of a deaf girl, a deaf girl who is now 
grown up.  Years ago, when Kingpins criminal organization was first taking 
off, he had a partner in crime, and American Indian nicknamed Crazy Horse.  
When Crazy Horse became to hard to handle, Kingpin killed him.  Crazy Horses 
last request was that Kingpin raise his daughter,  Maya Lopez.  So Kingpin 
basically adopted the young girl. Actually, he had her sent to a school 
for the mentally retarded but she proved talented at the piano, and they 
soon put her in the gifted school instead.  Kingpin kept an eye on her, 
letting her know that he was the one raising her now.

Basically, Maya discovered, (over time) that she had Taskmasters abilities:  
Any move she sees, she can duplicate.  Thats one reason why shes so good 
at playing the piano: she sees other master composers play, and picked up 
the talent instantly.

Back to the present:  Daredevil breaks into Kingpins corporate building, 
and breaks into a safe the guy in his office (the guys name was Lenny 
Cebulski), was trying to tell DD about. DD gets all the secret files on 
Kinpins various operations, and the Kingpin is indicted.  It turns out 
that Lenny had a twin brother, Larry Cebulski, who Foggy and DD convince 
to appear at trial.  Foggy gets awarded to serve on the D.A.s indictment 
team, basically cause he has dealt with the Kingpin before.

Kingpin gets Maya to deliver a file to Matts office, and Matt and Maya 
start that whole attraction thing, and they end up going out on a date 
the next day.  Matt has the most fun hes had in a long time.  Kingpin 
later tells Maya that Daredevil is responsible for her fathers death. 
Maya  is also known as Echo, her identity during her dancing routine, (not 
only does she give piano concerts, she does dance routines).  Anyway, the 
night after Matt and Mayas date, Maya attacks DD while hes out on patrol.  
DD realizes shes the same girl he just got done dating, but Maya cant 
tell hes DD.  DD escapes with his life, (she delivers a few good wallops 
on him though).

As Matt recovers the next day, Wilson Fisk is indicted in court.  When 
Foggys star witness, (Larry Cebulski, the twin brother of the man murdered 
in Matts office) doesnt show up for court, Rosalind Sharpe, (whos become 
the attorney for Wilson Fisk) has Foggy and the D.A.s case thrown out of 
court.  She explains that the two Murphy Bros. assassins are psychopaths, 
but not connected to the Kingpin.  They escaped from an Asylum last year, 
and have killed twins every two months since then.  Since Lenny Cebulski 
was a twin, that explains why the killed him.  The babies killed in the 
maternity ward back in Issue 1, are explained to have been twins, whom the 
Murphy Bros. admit to killing.  Rosalind explains the called Kingpin on a 
prank, or that they dialed the wrong number.  Kingpins endictment is thrown 
out.

When Kingpin leaves the court, he is confronted in his own limo by Larry 
Cebulski (the guy who didnt show up for court cause he was afraid for his 
life).  Larry shoots Kingpin several times in the chest, and Kingpin stumbles, 
and falls off a bridge....

Then, several days or week pass as Kingpin is assumed dead, (his body not 
being located in the river, of course).  Foggy is using the Kingpins files, 
which DD has confiscated, to indict in court several politicians and cops, 
who were on the Kingpins payroll.  We then cut to a night when DD is on 
patrol, and is visited by the Black Widow on rooftop.  This is when Echo 
chooses to strike again.  She shoots a poison dart into the Widow.  She 
goes down, and Matt has to get her to a hospital fast, so to evade Echo, 
he runs through a pitch black abandoned warehouse, (he knows Echos deaf, 
so by blinding her, he deprives her of her other sense).  Matt gets the 
Widow to the nearest hospital.  Echo figures out that he used sensory 
deprivation against him, and has heard that DD has uncanny hearing abilities, 
and decides to pay him back. She starts a big fire in a playground downtown.  
Matt sees her on the news, (apparently a news chopper over head shows the 
scene).  DD realizes hes being called out to duel.  He goes and fights 
Echo one last time, and manages to get Echo to calm down for one minute, 
so he can quickly reveal that under the mask, its Matt Murdock.  Matt says 
he couldnt have killed her father 20 years ago, when she was just a kid, 
cause he was just a kid then as well.

Echo realizes that if DD isnt responsible for her fathers death, then 
Kingpin was.  She runs from the scene.  Kingpin decides to emerge from 
the sewer, (still injured) and goes to seek out Echos help. She turns 
around and shoots him in the face.

Later, we see Black Widow being checked out of the hospital, and Kingpin 
being checked in.  We then see Echo leaving town, deciding to run away 
from New York, and her problems there.  Finally, the story ends showing 
Kingpin checked out of the hospital at some point later.  We see what the 
effects of the bullet have done: hes blind.

Thats how it ends.

DD2 Issue 9

Appearances:  Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, Black Widow, Kingpin, First 
appearance: Maya Lopez aka Echo.

References:  This issue came out in OCT of 99.  What else came out that 
month:  ASM #12, PP:SM #12, Uncanny Xmen 375, Hulk vol. 3, issue 9,  
Avengers Vol. 3 #23, IM3 23, FF3 #24, CA3 #24.

This issue shows the construction of Matt and Foggys new law office, over 
the course of some months.  The main story picks up on the first day the 
law office opens.  So some months have passed since DD #8.  

DD2 Issue 10

Appearances:  Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, Kingpin, Maya Lopez, (Echo).

References:  Picks up where issue 9 left off, the same day.  Matt goes to 
the hospital to have his face stiched up.  Then the story switches to the 
following day, when Maya and Matt first meet.

DD2 Issue 11

Appearances:  Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, Echo.

References:  Happens the following day and following night, as Matt and 
Maya go on their first date.  That night, Maya attacks DD.  Theres a full 
moon that night.

DD2 Issue 12

References:  This is a throwaway issue.  Basically, Queseda couldnt finish 
the art in time for the next part of the story, so they had a fill in artist 
draw a comic showing the thoughts of people in the city, as Echo and 
Daredevil battle on the rooftops across the neighborhood.  Nothing 
significant happens.  The artist shows a full moon that night as well.

DD2 Issue 13

Appearances:  Daredevil, Echo, Foggy Nelson, Rosalind Sharpe, Ben Urich, 
(BTS): he writes the Daily Bugle newstory we see on one page, the story 
about the Kingpin being indicted), Kingpin.

References:  Starts off by resolving the DD, Echo fight that night:  Its a 
standoff.  Then the story cuts to the next day.  Fisk is indicted in court.  
The hospital maternity ward killings from DD #1 are referenced as happening 
2 months ago.  So I guess 2 months have passed since DD #1-8 story arc.  But 
the construction of Matts lawfirm happened in between the two story arcs.  
Can construction in the Marvel Universe really progress that fast?

Then, after the indictment charges are dropped in court, Fisk leaves the 
courthouse, and gets shot by Larry Cebulski.  The story finally cuts to the 
next day, as we see Kingpins being shot and disapearing is all over the 
news.  Echo is crying, and plotting her revenge on Daredevil, whom she 
blames.

DD2 Issue 14

Appearances:  Daredevil, Echo, Foggy Nelson, Black Widow, Kingpin, (who 
we see at end of issue has apparently been laying low in the sewers, of 
all places).

References:  Over the course of this issue, several days, (possibly weeks) 
pass, as (with the Kingpin seemingly dead), Nelson and Murdock use Fisks 
files to indict several local politicians, cops, etc, all of whom were on 
the Kingpins payroll.  Enough time passes that DD heals from his fight with 
Echo. 

The main story picks up again on a night where Echo decides to make her 
move. She shoots a poison dart at DD, but Black Widow catches it instead, 
(she was visiting DD on a rooftop).  DD evades Echo, and runs away, getting 
Black Widow to a hospital. The issue ends when the story cuts to the next 
morning:  Echo has figured out to use sensory deprivation on DD, and is 
burning down a playground, and basically calling DD out for a fight, (Matt 
sees it on the news).

DD2 Issue 15

Appearances:  Daredevil, Foggy, Kingpin, Black Widow, Echo.  

References:  Daredevil and Echo have their last fight the same morning, (where 
the last issue left off).  DD reveals his secret identity to Maya.  Maya 
concludes that Kingpin is then responsible for her fathers death.  She goes 
and finds Kingpin, (whos apparently emerged from hiding, still hurting from 
being shot in the chest).  She does him one better, and shoots him in the 
face.  Cut to later, as we see Black Widow being checked out of the hospital 
by Matt, and Kingpin being checked into the hospital. Cut to still later, 
(probably days later) we see the effects of Maya shooting Wilson Fisk: Hes 
blind.  Thats how the story ends.

Ill post the later story arcs another time, but soon!

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil Vol. 2 Analysis, pt. 1!
Posted by Jhaeman on December 04, 2002 at 15:16:04:
In Reply to: Daredevil Vol. 2 Analysis, pt. 1!
posted by Kevin  on December 04, 2002 at 13:42:23:

Great analysis!  As for the question regarding how fast construction of the 
law offices could take place, I guess it depends on what is being built.  I 
don't have the comics, but it wouldn't make sense for me that a whole new 
building would be built for the private law offices of just two attorneys--
especially in an expensive place like Manhattan, they would just rent 
offices in some downtown building.  Maybe they simple had old offices 
renovated?  Regardless, if two months is the limit, we may just have to 
assume that DD called in some superpowered help to get it built so quickly.

Jhaeman

Comics That Time Forgot:  www.geocities.com/jhaeman

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil Vol. 2 Analysis, pt. 1!
Posted by Kevin  on December 05, 2002 at 14:59:10:
In Reply to: Re: Daredevil Vol. 2 Analysis, pt. 1!
posted by Jhaeman on December 04, 2002 at 15:16:04:

They show in DD2 #8 the lot where DD and Foggy plan on building there law 
firm.  It's an abondoned building lot.  Then, in DD2 #9, we see a step by 
step sequence showing construction of a new building on that lot, (maybe 
I'm mistaken, and they renevated an old building there...but I think it 
was a whole new building).  As for why so much construction for just two 
lawyers:  They used the money from Karen's death insurance, (which is 
apparently millions of buck, she was a popular radio host for a time after 
all), to build it. They could spend as much as they needed.  Furthermore, 
as the next few story arcs show, it's not just the two of them holed up in 
a little law office, (which they've done that before, in the olden days of 
yesteryear). Here, they hire secretaries and legal assistants, as seen over 
later issues.  As the song goes: "We're moving on up, MOVING ON UP! to the 
East side, MOVING ON UP!!!  WE FINALLY GOT A PIECE, OF THE PIE!!!!"

uh, that's the Jeffersons themesong folks...

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil Vol. 2 Analysis, pt. 1!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 04, 2002 at 21:47:40:
In Reply to: Daredevil Vol. 2 Analysis, pt. 1!
posted by Kevin  on December 04, 2002 at 13:42:23:

Great stuff, Kevin!  Very thorough.  With detail like this, who needs the 
comics? ;)

I'm going to print and save this for a calendar for the year prior to 
Maximum Security (which I'll get to after we firm up the more recent 
calendar).

I'll be particularly interested in later issues of DD, as they'll be placed 
in the timeframe since Maximum Security.

Keep up the good work!

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil Vol. 2 Analysis, pt. 1!
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 05, 2002 at 11:15:21:
In Reply to: Daredevil Vol. 2 Analysis, pt. 1!
posted by Kevin  on December 04, 2002 at 13:42:23:

Nice piece of work.  One point worth throwing in: in Daredevil: Target #1, 
Matt refers to the WTC disaster as being a little over a year ago (we see 
the work still continuing at ground zero) and - throwing conventional Marvel 
chronology to the winds - informs us that THREE YEARS have passed since the 
death of Karen Page.

My inclination is to take both of these as pure topical references to the 
publication schedule and disregard them otherwise.  They essentially work 
on the assumption that the Marvel Universe is in real time, which it 
obviously isn't.

Any thoughts?

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil Vol. 2 Analysis, pt. 1!
Posted by Kevin   on December 05, 2002 at 14:42:56:
In Reply to: Re: Daredevil Vol. 2 Analysis, pt. 1!
posted by Paul O'Brien on December 05, 2002 at 11:15:21:

What the... I bought Daredevil: Target, but haven't read it yet.  I can 
concieve the idea that it's been more than a year since Karen's death, but 
3 years? Hardly.  Since we seem to have placed the latest story arc as 
happening AFTER the WTC disaster, I could  more likely buy the reference 
that 9/11 happened a little over a year ago.  But both are probably topical 
references.

			*	*	*

Wolverine #183 - a Kingpin problem
Posted by Jeph! on December 05, 2002 at 00:40:35:

I thought I'd tackle this now, before it becomes a sticking-point later on:

In the latest Wolverine, #183, there's a scene showcasing the abilities of a 
new villain, the Sweeper.  As the mob boss explains his abilities in narration 
captions, we see the Sweeper kill a group of jewel theives, and report back to 
his employer -- who we see is the Kingpin.

Sitting at his usual desk in his New York skyrise.

Crap.

Now, Kingpin's been out-of-commission since DD2 #26-FB, correct?  Which we 
have on our various calendars as occuring just after Sept. 11th.  And he's 
been blind since DD2 #15.

So, it seems by necessity that this two-page scene in W2 #183 be classified 
as a flashback to that time-frame, yes?

Also, the Sweeper left the Kingpin a note -- "all clean", written on paper -- 
and one would think such a competent assasin would realize that if your 
employer is blind, you don't write him notes.  So I'm going to make the 
assumption that this FB occurs WAY back, before the arc where the Kingpin 
was blinded.

Fans of Daredevil, wigh in -- does placing this FB between DD2 #8 and #9 
pose any problems?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Wolverine #183 - a Kingpin problem
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 05, 2002 at 11:12:10:
In Reply to: Wolverine #183 - a Kingpin problem
posted by Jeph! on December 05, 2002 at 00:40:35:

I agree - I think it has to be explained as a flashback, which isn't too 
contrived a reading of the scene.  It just means that as mob boss is telling 
us about the Sweeper's abilities, we're seeing a typical example from his 
career which happens not to be contemporaneous.  Works for me.

			*	*	*

X-Men Unlimited #39 / Wolverine: Netsuke #1-4
Posted by Jeph! on December 05, 2002 at 01:01:14:

XU #39 hit stores today, and I didn't buy it -- but I did page through it, 
and I wanted to get my impressions down before the memories fade.

Three stories, all about Storm, occuring all over the place.

Story #1 takes place "just after Storm's return to earth", and notes that 
she's having troubles controlling her powers.  This is consistent with UX 
#168 or so, and her costume backs that up.  Magneto guest-stars, and she 
confronts him as a villain -- not as a struggling man with a painful past, 
an impression that Magneto begins to give the X-Men from M/GN #5-onwards.

I'm tempted to place the story between UX #168, where Storm first acknowledges 
that her powers are misbehaving, and M/GN #5, where Magneto begins to evoke a 
better character in the X-Men's eyes.

Can anyone who actually bought the issue provide clarification on this?

Story #2 takes place in the relative modern-day: Storm travles to Japan, to 
rendezvous with Wolverine for a trip to some spas that will soothe her still-
healing back injury.  Now, we don't yet know what plot details X-Treme X-Men 
X-Pose #2 will show us about Storm's rehabilitation, but I'm going to go 
ahead and place this issue into the calendar I posted here:

http://chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/messages/2787.htm

as occuring between W2 #178 and X #131.

X #132 occurs the same weekend as #131, and features a fully-healed Storm -- 
so we know that this story takes place prior to that weekend.  And the fact 
that she MEETS Wolverine in Japan, rather than travel with him, implies that 
he came from a different direction -- and, in W2 #178, Wolvie's leaving Rome.  
It seems a perfect fir for all counts, and doesn't require any re-shuffling 
of my previous calendar.  And, actually, it lends more credence to the fact 
that Cyclops picks Wolvie up "from Madripoor" in X #131 -- I had initially 
assumed that he travelled from Rome to Madripoor BTS, but now that we see him 
travelling from Rome to Japan, it's MUCH less of a stretch to assume Madripoor 
was his next stop.

(By the way, now that we have a spot that Wolvie's been in japen recently, 
I'm tempted to place the "Wolverine: Netsuke" miniseries here.  In the XU 
39/2 story, Sunfire gives Storm and Wolverine 24 hours to leave Japan -- so 
if the "Netsuke" series DID take place here, it would have to be BEFORE this 
story.)

And, finally, story #3 is fairly self-explanatory: is states outright that 
it occurs between UX #172-173 -- and it features more detail on Storm's 
radical costume change between those issues.

So, summing up:

STORM / ORORO MUNROE
...
UX 168
* XU 39
M/GN 5
...
UX 172
* XU 39/3
UX 173
...
XXX 1
(XXX 2?)
* XU 39/2
X 132
...

WOLVERINE / JAMES HOWLETT / "LOGAN"
...
XXX 1
(XXX 2?)
W2 177
W2 178
* W:NETSUKE 1-4
* XU 39/2
X 131

MAGNETO / MAGNUS / "ERIK LENSHERR"
...
XU 2-FB
* XU 39
M/GN 5
...

Does that work for everyone?  Input is appreciated -- like I said, I didn't 
buy the book.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men Unlimited #39 / Wolverine: Netsuke #1-4
Posted by Andy Holcombe on December 06, 2002 at 02:27:28:
In Reply to: X-Men Unlimited #39 / Wolverine: Netsuke #1-4
posted by Jeph! on December 05, 2002 at 01:01:14:

I don't see any reason why your placement couldn't work for the first story.

As you said, we'll have to wait for X-treme X-Men X-Pose #2 to firm up the 
placement of the contemporary story.  Nice job tying it into Wolverine: 
Netsuke.  That story just needs a little bit of time Wolverine can be off 
in Japan by himself.  I do seem to remember a flashback to some disturbing 
dreams of Wolverine's that send him to the Yashida Estate, but I could have 
very easily made them up.  I'd check, but I don't have the first three issues 
handy.

The third story offers a slight problem.  Since Storm and Yuriko appear in 
the beginning of the issue, with Storm pre-mohawk, the story in X-Men 
Unlimited #39 needs to be set during Uncanny X-Men #173.  Thankfully, there's 
a nice handy gap of a week between the end of Wolverine and Rogue's fight 
with the Viper and the Silver Sammuri and the aborted wedding of Wolverine 
and Mariko which is where Storm debuts her then-new look.  Or at least 
that's how the reprint in X-Men Classic #77 reads.

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men Unlimited #39 / Wolverine: Netsuke #1-4
Posted by Jeph! on December 06, 2002 at 03:08:16:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men Unlimited #39 / Wolverine: Netsuke #1-4
posted by Andy Holcombe on December 06, 2002 at 02:27:28:

> > Does that work for everyone?  Input is appreciated -- like I said, I 
didn't buy the book.

> I don't see any reason why your placement couldn't work for the first story.

Oh good.

> Nice job tying it into Wolverine: Netsuke.  That story just needs a little 
bit of time Wolverine can be off in Japan by himself.

Yep -- that's another reason I placed it BEFORE the XU #39 story.

> I do seem to remember a flashback to some disturbing dreams of Wolverine's 
that send him to the Yashida Estate, but I could have very easily made them 
up.

I remember dreams of Mariko in issue #1, but I don't think it was ever stated 
where he WAS at that time.  I read it as Logan already being in Japan.

However, I don't have issues #2-4, so I could very easily be wrong.

I'd really like this to be the location of the "Netsuke" series, though, for 
purely personal reasons.  If it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit -- but if it 
does, it's a perfect slot if Netsuke is read as a "contemporary" miniseries.

> Since Storm and Yuriko appear in the beginning of [UX 173], with Storm 
pre-mohawk, the story in X-Men Unlimited #39 needs to be set during Uncanny 
X-Men #173.  Thankfully, there's a nice handy gap of a week between the end 
of Wolverine and Rogue's fight with the Viper and the Silver Sammuri and the 
aborted wedding of Wolverine and Mariko

Good catch, thanks!  Quite right, too -- the story falls in the one-week gap 
between pp. 16-17 of UX 173.  That's what I get for not checking, and 
relying blindly on the "this story takes place" caption.  How often are 
those things right, anyway?

Thanks for the critique.  Much as I enjoy being right all the time, 
corrections and input are much appreciated!

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men Unlimited #39 / Wolverine: Netsuke #1-4
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 07, 2002 at 08:11:22:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men Unlimited #39 / Wolverine: Netsuke #1-4
posted by Jeph! on December 06, 2002 at 03:08:16:

> I remember dreams of Mariko in issue #1, but I don't think it was ever 
stated where he WAS at that time.  I read it as Logan already being in Japan.

Wolverine: Netsuke #1 contains a flashback to Wolverine seeing Mariko in his 
sleep in what might be a dream and might be a ghost visitation.  (Having 
read the entire miniseries, to be quite honest, I haven't got a clue what 
the plot is meant to be.)  In any event, the flashback itself isn't much 
use - it shows Logan in bed with Mariko over him, but there's no detail in 
the art which establishes where the room is.

In the introductory narration for this flashback, Logan says "Why did you 
come to me a few nights ago, Mariko?", so clearly the flashback is a few 
days before the main story.  

On page 1, he arrives at the Yashida estate with the narration "Here I am, 
Mariko.  Back in Japan."  This suggests that he's only just arrived in the 
country.

All told, my reading is that he experiences the dreams somewhere else, 
probably at home, and then travels to Japan in response.

However, there's no obvious reason why he couldn't remain in Japan after the 
miniseries concludes, and then meet up with Storm in X-Men Unlimited #39/2.

Regarding the first story, the placement proposed seems sound.  We're told 
unambiguously that she's just returned from outer space, so it's after 
Uncanny X-Men #167.  She's still in her Dave Cockrum costume, so it must be 
before the trip to Japan that began in Uncanny X-Men #172 (during which she 
shaves her head, as seen in X-Men Unlimited #39/3).  Magneto is still 
regarded as a villain by Storm, but does save the lives of two humans.  
Placing it just before Marvel Graphic Novel #5 seems to strike the best 
possible balance here.

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men Unlimited #39 / Wolverine: Netsuke #1-4
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 12, 2002 at 22:03:35:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men Unlimited #39 / Wolverine: Netsuke #1-4
posted by Paul O'Brien on December 07, 2002 at 08:11:22:

One observation:  Storm appears in a different costume in XU 39/2 that she 
wears in X 132 or XXX.  Because of this, I was tempted to place XU 39/2 
after, not before, X 132.  I could not find a reference to Storm being fully 
healed in X 132; yes, she looks fine there, but she looks fine in XU 39/2 as 
well, even though she's "still recovering."  Could she still be recovering 
in X 132, too?

Perhaps we need to wait and see if that XU 39/2 costume starts popping up 
elsewhere.

Paul

			*	*	*

Storm's costume and XU #39/2
Posted by Jeph! on December 12, 2002 at 23:39:13:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men Unlimited #39 / Wolverine: Netsuke #1-4
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 12, 2002 at 22:03:35:

> One observation:  Storm appears in a different costume in XU 39/2 that 
she wears in X 132 or XXX.  Because of this, I was tempted to place XU 39/2
after, not before, X 132.

Yep, I noticed that too, and ignored it for the sake of streamlining 
Wolverine's continuity.  If we place this issue after X #132, as you suggest, 
we have Wolvie travelling from the USA to Rome to Madripoor to France to 
Japan to Afghanistan to India back to the USA (or, if you place it after 
X #133, from France to Afghanistan to India to Japan).

Placing it before X #131 produces a more west-to-east line of travel for 
Wolvie: from the USA to Rome (W2 #177), to Japan (W:N #1-4 and XU #39/2), 
a quick stop in Madripoor (BTS in X #131), then picked up from Madripoor and 
flown to France for Darkstar's funeral (X #131), then back west again to 
Afghanistan (X #133), to meet up with Prof. X in India at X-Corp Mumbai 
and come home with him to the USA (UX #410).

Either scenario works, considering that Wolvie's quite a globe-trotter, but 
the second scenario does two things besides smooth out his locations: 
(1) provides him a ride home from Mumbai, and (2) explains the offhand 
remark in X #131 that Wolvie was in Madripoor -- until now unsupported 
by any other book.

> I could not find a reference to Storm being fully healed in X 132; yes, 
she looks fine there, but she looks fine in XU 39/2 as well, even though 
she's "still recovering."  Could she still be recovering in X 132, too?

Conceivably, yes, although Jean (who saw Storm wheelchair-bound in XX #18) 
doesn't make a fuss over her.  Also, in every OTHER Storm appearance where 
she's injured or recovering, Wolverine's been there for her -- her physical 
trainer, making sure she's okay.  His absence in X #132 seems to point to 
the notion that she is, indeed, recovered.

> Perhaps we need to wait and see if that XU 39/2 costume starts popping 
up elsewhere.

Yeah, I suppose so.  But, if my suspicions are correct and it DOESN'T, then 
I recommend leaving the book where it is.

Wait and see, I suppose...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Storm's costume and XU #39/2
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 13, 2002 at 04:31:46:
In Reply to: Storm's costume and XU #39/2
posted by Jeph! on December 12, 2002 at 23:39:13:

One further point on Wolverine's continuity: he's also in Japan in the 
back-up strip in his most recent issue.  Seems reasonable to add that to 
the same Japan trip, given that there's no reason why it wouldn't fit.  (The 
story takes about an afternoon and consists of Wolverine hunting down Lady 
Deathstrike.)

			*	*	*

IKONN...IMMORTUS...INFERNO
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 06, 2002 at 17:26:24:

new entries marked **

IKONN

**DRSTR2 47  (visually, the two are different; but in DRSTR3 49, Strange 
refers to the illusions of Ikonn, and in DRSTR2 47 he states that Ikonn 
is the very personification of illusion. I contend that one or both of the 
visuals is an illusion and that the characters are the same entity.)

DRSTR3 49

IMMORTUS

A 131
A 132
**GSA 3
**A 133
A 135
GSA 4

INFERNO  
real name: SLIFER
GR2 8
**GR2 9

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent 
piece of information engineering!

			*	*	*

Re: IKONN...IMMORTUS...INFERNO
Posted by Administrator on December 06, 2002 at 18:09:19:
In Reply to: IKONN...IMMORTUS...INFERNO
posted by Arthur Stein on December 06, 2002 at 17:26:24:

> IMMORTUS
> A 131
> A 132
> **GSA 3
> **A 133
> A 135
> GSA 4

While it wouldn't be unheard of, I'm a little surprised that I would have 
overlooked these two appearances. Can someone review Avengers Forever, to 
make sure there's nothing therein that retcons his appearances in these 
two books?

			*	*	*

Re: IKONN...IMMORTUS...INFERNO
Posted by Sean Curtin on December 09, 2002 at 11:21:06:
In Reply to: Re: IKONN...IMMORTUS...INFERNO 
posted by Administrator on December 06, 2002 at 18:09:19:

There isn't, unless it's in some easy-to-miss throwaway line.  "The Secret 
History of the Avengers" in #8 would definitely mention that it wasn't 
Immortus there if it were someone else, but it doesn't.

--
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

IMMORTUS and Space Phantoms
Posted by Don Campbell on December 09, 2002 at 12:15:32:
In Reply to: Re: IKONN...IMMORTUS...INFERNO 
posted by Sean Curtin on December 09, 2002 at 11:21:06:

By the way, should Immortus get a BTS credit for A 134 or not? After all, 
as Avengers Forever showed, his offer to enable Mantis and the Vision to 
journey through their respective pasts was all part of his manipulations. 
Also, Immortus had agents acting on his behalf throughout the storyline (the 
two Synchro-Staffs that were really Space Phantoms) to make sure that the 
Avengers learned what he wanted them to learn so that they would do what he 
wanted. Doesn't that make him "present" in that issue, at least enough to be 
considered "behind-the-scenes"?

While I'm on that thought, since it has been revealed that the Synchro-Staffs 
were actually Space Phantoms, shouldn't the Space Phantom entry list his/their 
appearances in Avengers 133-135 and Avengers Forever 7? Of course, that raises 
the question of HOW those appearances should be listed. The appearances of the 
Synchro-Staffs were not listed before because they were believed to be nothing 
more than talking databases. Should they be given their own entry or should 
the alias of "Sychro-Staff" be added to the Space Phantom entry? And since 
there are now known to be MANY Space Phantoms, how can we be sure that it was 
the same SP who appeared in all the issues listed for him? Avengers Forever 
#8 helps clarify the situation somwhat but not completely. And how would you 
distinguish between Space Phantoms anyway?

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Here is the Daredevil Vol. 2 analysis part 2, part 3 coming soon!
Posted by Kevin  on December 06, 2002 at 21:54:27:

 Here's the 2nd portion of Daredevil Vol. 2 analysis.

Issues 16-19

Story: Brian Michael Bendis Art: David Mack

Synopsis: This is the start of the 4 part Ben Urick Storyline.  It basically 
shows what Ben was doing While the Trial of the Kingpin was going on.  
The story start off with Ben talking to a little boy named Timmy, whos in 
the hospital, in the mental ward to be percise.  Timmy is talking in 
jibberish: in comic book gibberish to be precise.  Ben is trying to find 
out what traumatized this kid because he has learned it somehow involves 
Daredevil, though he cant figure out quite how.  From Timmys mother, we 
learn that his father is the old lame ass DD villian Leap Frog.  Leap Frog 
disappeared some days ago, and Timmy must have saw something he wasnt 
supposed see.

So Ben types up a story for the Daily Bugle on Leap Frogs kid, but J. Jonah 
Jameson pulls him into his office and yells at him, saying Youre supposed 
to be covering the trial of the Kingpin and says hes writing garbage, and 
he wont publish it.  Ben leaves the office.

That night he has a nightmare. He wakes up to a phone call from the nurse 
whos befriended him and Timmy at the hospital.  He goes back to the 
hospital, (probably the next morning) to find Timmys been drawing pictures 
with crayons.  The pictures are of his father, Leap Frog, and DD, possibly 
in battle.  Ben has been unable to contact Matt Murdock about the Leap Frog 
thing, (probably because Matts dealing with the whole Kingpin trial thing, 
and Echo).  Ben goes and investigates the policemen who responded to Leap 
Frogs wife calling them, when she found him traumatized on the roof the 
night it happened, (whatever it is).  The policeman basically shows he 
doesnt care what happened to criminal scum like Leap Frog, as long as their 
gone. He then basically shows Ben the door.  So Bens feeling upset about 
this kid no one seems to care about, and he goes back to see the kid, finds 
him asleep, but then, to his horror, notices some bruises on his body, (under 
his shirt).  Ben calls the police who arrest Leap Frogs wife for child 
abuse, (yeah, it was Leap Frog who did the beating, but she was complient 
with it, or wouldnt bother to stop her husband).  

Bens still investigating this when he gets several pages on his beeper from 
J.Jonah Jameson.  He doesnt care.  He passes a television set to see the 
news broadcasting: Kingpins been shot as was seen in Issue 13 of DD.  He 
knows he should be covering that story, but hes decided not to do anything 
else till he finds out from Matt what happened with Leap Frog, (in case you 
dont know, Ben knows Matt is DD).  Matts sectretary at his law firm says 
hes out on business, but Ben, in determination, camps out on Matts front 
doorstep.  That night, (the night of Kingpins being shot and dissapearance) 
DD appears, and wakes Ben up.  Ben asks him what the hell happened, (Bens 
a little scared, he wondered if DD went and killed Leap Frog or something). 

Matt kindly explains he had been investigating a series of thefts from 
buildings in the area.  One night, he found the culprit: Leap Frog.  Leap 
Frog escaped him and made a mad dash back to his own home.  DD caught up with 
him on the roof of his home though. Timmy appears on the roof through the 
door, (this is an apartment complex, BTW).  DD looks at the kid for an 
instant, and Leap Frog uses that instant to pick up a lead pipe and beat the 
snot out of DD.  Matt says he went temporarily uncounsious, and when he came 
to, no one was around.  He then went home.

Ben is satisfied, but explains to Matt that their is a little boy traumatized 
over this.  Ben goes back to the hospital, looks over the kids drawing one 
last time, and we the audience get to figure it out, (and we suspect Ben and 
DD do as well):  After Matt was knocked out, Leap Frog was set to kill him, 
and he was yelling at Timmy to go back inside, but Timmy had had enough, 
picked up an electical wire, (or kicked it over there, or something) and 
Leap Frog ended up electrocuted.  He fell off the roof into a garbage truck 
below, (poetic justice I guess), which didnt notice his body, and drove 
off.  Timmy went back downstairs, traumatized. 

Ben opens up the window to Timmys hospital room, and in pops DD, who carries 
Timmy out the window, and give Timmy a tour of the rooftops, (carrying him in 
his arms). To Timmy, (a young superhero nut) this is a dream come true.  DD, 
to show Timmy he must not be afraid, shows his face, to show theres men 
underneath these superhero masks.  A few days later, Timmy is checked out of 
the hospital, and we see him being adopted by a warm and loving home. Ben 
feels hell be allright. We also see that Jameson, (in a sign of 
reconciliation, publishes Bens story on Timmys experience).  Its a happy 
ending for all. 

DD 2 Issue 16

Appearences: Ben Urick, J.Jonah Jameson, Thor, (BTS: in the sky overhead in 
one panel), Peter Parker.  First appearance of Little Timmy son of Leap 
Frog.

References:  Published in March 2001.  Also published that month:  ASM #29, 
PP:SM #29, Avengers #40, IM#40, FF #41, CA #41, Hulk #27, Thunderbolts #51, 
Xmen #112.

Other references:  Starts the 4 part Ben Urick storyline.  The indictment of 
the Kingpin, (from issue 13) is about to happen.  The Kingpins indictment 
might possilby happen the next day.  Basically, this story is What Ben Urick 
was doing while the trial of the Kingpin was happening.

 DD2 Issue 17

Appearances:  Ben Urick, Little Timmy

References:  none really.  Ben is still investigating Leap Frogs apparent 
death.  This is either the day of, or the day before the events of DD2 Issue 
13.  

DD2 Issue 18

Appearances:  Ben Urick, Daredevil, Little Timmy, Kingpin, Foggy Nelson, 
(both he and Kingpin are shown in a panel in the courtroom as seen in DD2 
13).  

References:  The Trial of the Kingpin from issue 13 happens while Ben Urick 
is investigating the Leap Frog case.  Ben passes by a T.V., where a reporter 
says the Kingpin has just been shot, (as seen in issue 13).  Ben kicks 
himself for not covering whats obviously a more important story.  Ben 
confronts Daredevil at end of the issue, (its nighttime, the end of the day 
when Kingpin gets shot).

DD2 Issue 19

Appearances:  Ben Urick, Daredevil, Little Timmy.

References:  Picks up where 18 left off:  with Ben questioning DD as to what 
happened with Leap Frog.  DD pays a visit to Little Timmy in the hospital, 
either that same night, or the next night.  Then, the story cuts to Little 
Timmy being adopted.  Ben Urick is finally happy.  Electra #1 came out this 
month: June 2001.

Theres also a Full moon seen this issue, in the part where DD visits Timmy 
in the hospital.

From what I can gleam of the flashback DD tells Ben of in this issue, Leap 
Frogs death took place right before the Echo storyline started.  And Ben 
spent most of the time during the Kingpin indictment part of the story 
trying to figure out what traumatized Leap Frogs son.

So Daredevil and Ben Uricks chronologies should go like this, (or at least 
I feel so):

Daredevil:
DD2 19-FB DD2 9 DD2 10 DD2 11~DD2 12 DD2 13 DD2 18 DD2 19 DD2 14 DD2 15 
DD2 20 (2nd Story) DD2 20 (1st story)

Ben Urick
DD2 6 (BTS) DD2 16 DD2 17 DD2 13, (BTS) DD2 18  DD2 19

 DD2 Issue 20 has a bonus back up six page story written by Stan Lee. I 
detail that real quick:

DD2 20, (2nd story): Spidey and Daredevil are sitting in a bar, in costume, 
yukking it up.  They leave the bar, go fight off a couple of street thugs, 
and go their respective ways. Its old style Stan Lee goodness.  Thats it.  
Id recommend that this one night story happen before the next story arc, 
before issue the main part of issue 20.

DD2 Issues 20-25

Written by: Bob Gale Drawn by: Phil Winslade, Dave Ross<p>First, let me say, 
that with the whole Trial of the Kingpin, Echo, Ben Urick plot threads 
done, the story can finally move forward. Its probably months later.  What 
Id like to point out here is that there is still some debate about whether 
this storyline happens before or after the Kang War.  I seem to recall, most 
people think that the NEXT storyline, starting in issue 26, happens after 
the Kang War has ended, (I think thats what they concluded. Thats the 
whole the world finds out who DD is storyline.)  But this storyline, which 
does feature a cameo appearance by a blind Kingpin, I dont think we ever 
figured out where it goes.  Maybe this will help.

Also, let me say how much fun this storyline was, compared to the dark 
courtroom dramas of the recent issues.  Not that both storylines arent 
enjoyable.  But going back and reading these was fun.

Story Synopsis:  The story starts at the end of a trial, a trial that has 
probably taken several months, or at least weeks. Matt and Foggy are 
defending a Corporate boss accused of racism.  The trial ends in a verdict 
in his favor.  They leave the courthouse, and head back to their lawfirm, 
where Foggy introduces their new legal assistant Elaine Kendrick.  Matt 
and Foggy take note that today is the day an old DD foe gets released from 
prison: the Jester.  Matt is later on that day introduced to Samuel Griggs, 
a popular Philanthropist of rich social circles in New York. He says Matt 
winning that trial this morning settled things in his mind:  he wants to 
hire Matt as his lawyer.  And he wants to sue Daredevil.

Griggs explains that it was the night of the 8th  when Daredevil and 2 
ninjas came crashing through his greenhouse on his property, fighting one 
another.  The punched each other up a bit, and then the two ninjas left, 
and DD chased after them.  He wants to sue Daredevil for destroying his 
property damage to his greenhouse.  Matt and Foggy tell Griggs to give them 
24 hours, then theyll decide.

Matt and Foggy discuss it:  Matt says he wasnt the one who crashed through 
that greenhouse, so whoever it was was impersonating Daredevil.  Matt also 
can tell through his hearing that Griggs isnt lying: he believes Daredevil 
destroyed his greenhouse.  Matt says they better take the case, that way 
they can investigate more thourougly, and keep Griggs from going to another 
lawyer, (who might be more eager to help Griggs).

Matt takes the case the next morning. They travel out to Griggs mansion, to 
find it swarming with reporters. Griggs has went ahead and told the press 
of his plans to sue DD, (much to Foggy and Matts displeasure).  We see 
panels showing Black Widow, Kingpin, J. Jonah Jameson, and Peter Parkers 
reactions to the news coverage. Theyre all shocked, but Kingpin and Jameson 
are pleased.

Matt realizes they cant issue a subpeona to appear in court to a superhero 
if they dont know where he lives.  He thinks the case will never go forward. 
Then, the Jester appears on Television, saying he will rob a bank tomorrow.  
Daredevil meets him at the bank the next day to prevent the robbery.  The 
Jester turns around and surprises him by handing him a subpeona.

Daredevil heads back to his law office to see that the police didnt bother 
to arrest the Jester, (he was just pulling a theatric to get Daredevil to 
appear, to issue a subpeona).  Matt and Foggy are mad when they learn that 
Elaine Kendrick was the one who hired the Jester. She cites the fact that 
they needed unconventional methods if they were going to move a case forward.  
Now, they have no choice but to go forward with the case.  

Daredevil must now find a lawyer to represent him, (since Matt Murdock is 
representing Samuel Griggs).  Matts hope is that theyll be able to settle 
this before it goes to court.  But Griggs wants his day in court offly bad.  
Daredevil goes around town to various lawyers, all of whom as that he reveal 
his secret identity.  Thats the one thing DD wont agree to. Finally, he 
meets a young, enthuisastic lawyer named Kate Vinokur.  She only asks that 
he be able to pay her fees.  They get along, and she accepts him as his 
lawyer.  They appear before a camera crew together the next day to announce 
their defense.

Griggs pulls another stunt and announces on T.V. that if Daredevil will admit 
his guilt, and pay for the repairs, hell donate $50,000 to a crippled 
childrens society.  DD goes to visits the Avengers, specifically the Black 
Panther, who agrees to give 100,000 to a blind kids society if Griggs 
drops the lawsuit.

Meanwhile, Matts gotta figure out what Griggs saw or didnt see that night, 
to prevent this from going to court, and him purjuring himself.  He learns 
from Griggs adultress lover that she saw him get out of their bed that 
night of the DD attack, leave their loveshack without explanation, and 
head home.  Suspecting something, Matt tells Griggs they need colaborating 
evidence, evidence that someone else saw these events.  The impending trials 
all over the news by this time.  The next day, an old man appears at 
Murdocks lawfirm, saying that he saw DD and two ninjas jumping across the 
street attacking each other, heading in the direction of Griggs house. Matt 
can tell hes not lying.  Matt does some investigating and learns that both 
Griggs and the old man attend the same psychaitrist: a Dr. Arnold Quaid.  

DD pays this doctor a visit:  in Dr. Quaids office, he finds sitting behind 
the desk an old foe of DDs: The Matador, (Miguel Eloganto).  Another old 
cheesy villian.  Eloganto goes on to explain the powers of mind control.  DD 
immediately places Elaganto under citizens arrest and drags him down to 
Griggs office. He breaks into one of Griggs staff meetings, and demands 
Elaganto confess to his crime.  Elaganto says he has no idea what DD is 
talking about, and that hes reformed.  He says he was on his way to a job 
interview when DD dragged him in here off the street.  DD can tell he 
believes what hes saying.  DD realizes that Elaganto was being mind 
controlled as well. Griggs, meanwhile, has all this on tape from the 
security cameras in his office.  Hes succeeding in making DD out to be a 
fool.  Besides, as Elaganto said back in the office:  theres no law against 
implanting false memories.  

Since DD cant locate this Quaid fellow, the trials going to have to go 
forward.  Murdock cant be in two places at once, so he shows up in court 
as Griggs lawyer...and Peter Parker shows up as Daredevil.  As they sit 
down for trial, Kate Vinokur whispers, Who the hell are you? Youre not 
the DD Ive come to know.  The chin and the voice are all wrong.  Spidey 
tells her to just go with it.

Day 1 of the trial concludes.  The following day, Spidey shows up again as 
DD, but Matt doesnt show up to defend Griggs. Foggy has to handle the case.  
Theyre a few hours into the trial, (and Griggs is getting mad that his star 
lawyer Murdock isnt there) when Matt and his legal assistant Elaine Kendrick 
show up.  Murdock says he got a disturbing phone call from someone asking him 
to bring a video camera to a street corner at noon.  He sent Elaine down 
there with a camera, and lo and behold, who comes swinging by but Daredevil!  
(yes, Matt had this set up, so Elaine would catch him on camera).  Murdock 
says in light of this footage, he must ask this case be dismissed, since its 
obvious that there is someone else out there as Daredevil.  Obviously, since 
the public dont know whos under the mask, how can they ask the DD on the 
stand to pay for a crime, when anybody could possibly put on that mask.  

Just then, another DD comes bursting through the Courtroom window.  He says 
that hes the real Daredevil, and he pulls off his hood to reveal his face:  
just some low wage earning guy named Terrence Hillman, who admires DD, and 
wanted to help him out.  Before the audience though, he says I was the one 
who busted up your greenhouse Mr. Griggs. Heres a check for the damages.  
The judge asks well, who the hell is this guy on the stand, then?  The new 
DD says I was training him to be the New Daredevil. Ive decided to retire.

Matt was the person behind DD appearing down on Main Street before the 
cameras, but he and Foggy didnt plan on this guy accepting credit, but 
they let him play his part.  The judge, in a rage, declares a mistrial.  

Later that day, Kate Vinokur demands an explanation, saying she feels used. 
DD explains that he had a friend stand in as DD at the trial, but the 
Terrance guy bursting through the window, that wasnt his idea.  Kate still 
has a new distaste in her mouth for superheros though.  

That night, DD pays Terrance a visit in his lonely house.  Terrance just 
explains, (out of fear) that he just wanted to help.  He figured hed get 
some publicity as the man behind the mask and this would let the real DD 
continue to act as a superhero.  He also says he did it to impress a girl.  
DD warns him the publicity will put him in danger, but leaves him alone, 
(hes sure that the media will see through his lies in a few months).  

The next day, DD and Spidey are discussing all this madness on a rooftop, 
when DD gets a call from Kate. She says she got a letter from Arnold Quaid, 
addressed to DD, telling him its time they met.  DD goes to the address 
inside the letter, an old office building.  Inside, he finds The Ringmaster, 
who explains yes, hes the guy behind all the mind control.  He says he got 
the name Arnold Quaid from that old movie Total Recall, (which, of 
course, is about Mind control).  DD asks him why he did all this.  Ringmaster 
says he just wanted to test out a new mind control device, and what better 
way then to use it on an old foe. Ringmaster then pulls a lever and sends 
DD through a trap door, which deposits him outside.  DD realizes, once 
again, that there is no law against implanting false memories, so he 
figures he has to let it be, (he knows the Ringmaster will mess up someday, 
performing a crime).  

DD pays one last visit to his lawyer Kate.  They had been feeling an 
attraction shortly after they met, but Kates realized that since she can 
never know whos under the mask, (unless he were to reveal it), she wants 
nothing more to do with him.  So when DD asks her out on a date, now that 
courts over, she politely turns him down.  The story ends with Matt and 
Foggy in a bar, celebrating the victory.  Matts depressed that his 
newfound relationship with Kate is on the rocks.  Foggy says Dont worry, 
shell call you.  Matt says How can you be so sure?  Foggy says Cause 
you still owe her the bill for her services.  They laugh, and the story 
fades to black.

DD2 Issue 20, (1st, main story):

Appearances:  Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, the Jester, 1st appearance of Samuel 
Griggs, a New York Philanthropist.

References:  Published in July, 2001.  Also published that month:  Uncanny 
Xmen 397, Thor 40, Thunderbolts #55, Xmen 116, PP:SM2 #33, ASM2 #33, FF3 45, 
Avengers #44, IM #44, CA #45, Hulk #31.  I think theres a possiblity that 
some of these next 6 issues were published biweekly, they came out awfully 
fast, to make up for lost time.

Other references:  Happens over the course of 1 day.  Starts at the end of 
a trial involving Matt defending a corporate boss accused of racism.  In 
other words, its probably been a long time since DD#15 ended.  The Jester 
is released from prison that day.  Samual Griggs gives Matt Murdock 24 hours 
to decide if he wants to take the case. Matt calls him up the next morning, 
accepting the offer. The issue ends there.

DD2 Issue 21

Appearances:  Daredevil, Kingpin, (a blind Kingpin, complete with Im blind 
glasses), Black Widow, Spiderman, J. Jonah Jameson, The Jester, Samuel Griggs.

References:  Starts off where we left off last issue: the morning where Matt 
takes the case.  Cuts to the next day later on, where we see Jester appearing 
on T.V., calling DD out.  Story then cuts to the next day, when Daredevil 
catches the Jester, who in turn hands a subpeona to Daredevil.

DD2 Issue 22

Appearances:  Daredevil, Foggy, Jester, Samuel Griggs, J. Jonah Jameson, 
first appearance of Daredevils lawyer:  Kate Vinokur.

References:  Starts off where last issue left off, with the Jester serving 
DD with a subpeona.  Cut to the next day, as DD goes hunting for a lawyer. 
These scenes seem to happen over a few days.  He finally finds one whos 
honest: Kate Vinokur.  The next day, at a news conference, she announces 
shell be defending him.

DD2 Issue 23

Appearances:  Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, Black Panther, The Matador, (Miguel 
Eloganto), the Ringmaster, (BTS), Kate Vinokur, Samuel Griggs<p>References:  
Happens over a few days as DD investigates whos setting him up, and the 
lawyers start preparing for trial.

DD2 Issue 24

Appearances:  Daredevil, Foggy, Samuel Griggs, Kate Vinokur, The Ringmaster, 
(BTS), Spiderman.

References:  Happens the day after Issue 23 ends.  Then, two days pass, and 
jury selection begins.  The following day, the trial begins.

DD2 Issue 25

Appearances:  Daredevil, Foggy, The Ringmaster, Spiderman, Kate Vinokur, 
Samuel Griggs, J. Jonah Jameson. 

References:  The trial wraps up on its 2nd day.  Its declared a mistrial.  
The next day, (or possibly a few days later) we learn it was all the 
Ringmasters fault.  DD and Kate Vinokur go their seperate ways.  The story 
ends with Matt and Foggy sitting around in a bar, having a few beers.

Ill post DD2 analysis part 3, the last few issues, another time soon!

			*	*	*

Re: Here is the Daredevil Vol. 2 analysis part 2, part 3 coming soon!
Posted by Kevin  on December 09, 2002 at 09:02:05:
In Reply to: Here is the Daredevil Vol. 2 analysis part 2, part 3 coming soon!
posted by Kevin  on December 06, 2002 at 21:54:27:

I've noticed that I made hardly no mention of the weather or full moon phases 
during the Issues 20 to 25 story arc. Though this was subconsiously done, 
there is a good reason for that. 95 percent of the action in these issues 
happens during the daytime, and the weather is always portrayed as nice and 
sunny, as far as I can tell, (I ca't tell how warm it is outside, but there's 
green trees in certain scenes).  

			*	*	*

xmen
Posted by z on December 07, 2002 at 00:08:41:

who is the mutant Killspree?

			*	*	*

Re: xmen
Posted by DCW3 on December 07, 2002 at 14:34:17:
In Reply to: xmen
posted by z on December 07, 2002 at 00:08:41:

Killspree, aka Killjoy, was part of the Canadian government team (?) Weapon 
PRIME, who fought X-Force on occasion.

			*	*	*

Re: xmen
Posted by Mokole on April 08, 2003 at 22:13:29:
In Reply to: Re: xmen
posted by DCW3 on December 07, 2002 at 14:34:17:

Killjoy is a member of Weapon PRIME, not seen since 1994.  A mutant of 
unknown powers, he is a keen tactition and excellent hand-to-hand fighter.  
His forearm blades are his weapon of combat but his mutant ability may be 
one of:

Phasing
Stealth (invisible to many tracking devices if not all if he so wishes)
Integrity (ability to keep all of his functions and molecules in place, 
making him extremely durable).

Hope we see him again with a new code name, Peacekeeper!

			*	*	*

Non-Canon List Additions
Posted by Jhaeman on December 07, 2002 at 00:12:42:

I'm glad we have a new list of non-canon books from Marvel or its various 
imprints on the FAQ.  I went through my inventory and found the following 
to add to the list.  Many are obviously not canon, but since the list already 
contains many obvious ones (such as Heathcliff), I felt it was worthwhile to 
articulate them.

----------------
Air Raiders
Alf
A-Team
Abraham Stone
Alien Legion
Bullwinkle & Rocky
Battlestar Galactica
Conan the Barbarian (and spin-offs)
Captain Confederacy
Crash Ryan
Coyote
Devil Dinosaur
Dragonstrike
Droids
D.P. 7
Draft
Elfquest
Elsewhere Prince
Further Adventures of Indiana Jones
Fred Hembeck Destroys the Marvel Universe
Fantastic Four Roast
Francis, Brother of the Universe
Groo the Wanderer
Groo Chronicles
Generic Comic
Headmasters
Indiana Jones & the Last Crusade
Idol
Kickers, Inc.
Labyrinth
Lance Barnes: Post Nuke Dick
Logan's Run
Mark Hazzard: Merc
Marvel Action Universe
Masters of the Universe
Mighty Mouse
Nam
Nightmask
Nth Man: The Ultimate Ninja
Olympians
Police Academy
Psi Force
Pitt
Red Sonja (all volumes)
Robocop
Semper Fi
Sleez Brothers
Stalkers
Star Brand
Strikeforce: Morituri
Spitfire & the Troubleshooters
Saint Sinner
Steelgrip Starkey
Thundercats
Visionaries
Willow
War
-----------------
Jhaeman
Comics That Time Forgot:  www.geocities.com/jhaeman

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Re: Non-Canon List Additions
Posted by Jeph! on December 07, 2002 at 03:02:07:
In Reply to: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by Jhaeman on December 07, 2002 at 00:12:42:

I'm pretty sure that the Conan and Red Sonja books ARE canon -- hasn't it 
been established that their era WAS part of the Marvel Universe's past?  I'm 
thinking of Kulan Gath, here, as well as Red Sonja's possession of MJ Watson 
in an issue of MTU.

Also, since the New Universe's earth has been moved to the Marvel Universe 
(in "Starblast" #4, that classic), and many characters have repeatedly 
appeared in Quasar, doesn't that render all of their titles now canon as 
well?

Same with Devil Dinosaur, by the way -- he and Moon Boy appeared in the 
"Fallen Angels" series -- although they were transported in from their world, 
and transported out again, does the fact that they had an adventure IN the 
Marvel Universe render them "canon" characters?

"Nth Man" also crossed over with Excalibur, and I believe that the Punisher 
appeared in "'Nam".

Then again, Death's Head originated in the TransFormers universe, and I don't 
see ANYone saying that they're a canon series.  Then again, dimensional 
travel was involved...

Ahhh, it's all so confusing.  :)

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Non-Canon List Additions
Posted by Jhaeman on December 07, 2002 at 07:15:06:
In Reply to: Re: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by Jeph! on December 07, 2002 at 03:02:07:

You raise some interesting points!  Here's a few thoughts in response:

------------------
> I'm pretty sure that the Conan and Red Sonja books ARE canon -- hasn't it 
been established that their era WAS part of the Marvel Universe's past?  I'm 
thinking of Kulan Gath, here, as well as Red Sonja's possession of MJ Watson 
in an issue of MTU.
------------------
I haven't heard of this, but it doesn't strike me as implausible either--I 
just assumed that neither Conan nor Red Sonja were canon since neither 
character is listed in the MCP at all (i.e., the only "Conan" is "Neal").  
Maybe we should track down a dedicated Conan fan to get to work? :)

--------------------
> Also, since the New Universe's earth has been moved to the Marvel Universe 
(in "Starblast" #4, that classic), and many characters have repeatedly 
appeared in Quasar, doesn't that render all of their titles now canon as 
well?
---------------------
I was actually thinking about this myself, as I'm one of the very few who 
really enjoyed the New Universe (I'm currently working on filling in the 
gaps of my "Kickers, Inc." collection) and I remember the Quasar issues 
fondly.  I'm not sure what the MCP's policy on this is.  My preference 
would be to have a separate page (like the 2099 or Killraven pages) for 
all the New Universe character appearances *before* they entered the Marvel 
Universe, and then have their appearances *after* they entered the MU listed 
as normal in the MCP, perhaps with links between the two for those characters 
who appear in both.  Then again, this could be rather cumbersome.

---------------------
> Same with Devil Dinosaur, by the way -- he and Moon Boy appeared in the 
"Fallen Angels" series -- although they were transported in from their world, 
and transported out again, does the fact that they had an adventure IN the 
Marvel Universe render them "canon" characters?
----------------------
You're absolutely right on Devil Dinosaur.  Moonboy himself has an extensive 
listing on the MCP already, covering both his own books and the Fallen Angels 
appearances.

-----------------------
> "Nth Man" also crossed over with Excalibur, and I believe that the Punisher 
appeared in "'Nam".
-----------------------
You're definitely right about the Punisher appearing in Nam; I guess I was 
more thinking that the MCP wouldn't need to list all the normal soldiers who 
appeared.  I'm not sure about Nth Man--again, I was one of the very few people 
who *loved* the series which was clearly set in an alternate universe (I 
believe Larry Hama is an underrated writer), and if the character did cross 
over into the MU we're going to have to make a decision about whether it's 
worth analysing the whole series for that one appearance.  (btw, regardless, 
what issues of Excalibur are you talking about?  I'm rather curious to see 
what John Doe was up to).

------------------------
> Ahhh, it's all so confusing.  :)
------------------------
Too true!

Jhaeman
Comics That Time Forgot:  www.geocities.com/jhaeman

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Re: Non-Canon List Additions
Posted by Andy H on December 08, 2002 at 02:17:56:
In Reply to: Re: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by Jhaeman on December 07, 2002 at 07:15:06:

 Nth Man appeared in Excalibur #27 with art by Barry Windsor-Smith and Bill 
Siekewicz

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Re: Non-Canon List Additions
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 07, 2002 at 08:21:17:
In Reply to: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by Jhaeman on December 07, 2002 at 00:12:42:

Some of these are books which have interacted with the Marvel Universe.  Of 
course, so have the DC Universe, Earth-WildStorm and Earth-Top Cow, so I 
wouldn't automatically conclude that any alternate reality that has crossed 
over constitutes a part of the Marvel Universe.  It's a judgment call, really.

> Conan the Barbarian (and spin-offs)

Definitely canon.  Repeatedly referenced in the Official Handbook.  It fits 
into the origin of the Serpent Crown.  Red Sonja appeared in an issue of 
Marvel Team-Up, for that matter.

> Devil Dinosaur

Canon.  Fallen Angels introduced this into mainstream continuity and 
established that it actually takes place on a different planet in the 
mainstream Marvel Universe.  Devil Dinosaur and Moon Boy both have listings 
in the Official Handbook Update 1989.

> D.P. 7
> Draft

New Universe comics.  Since the New Universe Earth is presently somewhere 
in the Marvel Universe (as I understand it - this was a Quasar storyline I 
never read), I would view the New Universe as part of the Marvel Universe 
continuity.  It has as much of a claim, if not more, than Earth-S.

> Francis, Brother of the Universe

What the heck was that?

> Headmasters

Ah, Transformers.  This is a tricky one, since Spider-Man does appear in an 
early issue, along with a few other Marvel cameos.  Current line seems to 
be that it's not canon, however.

Since Death's Head - who is definitely canon - originated in the UK 
Transformers continuity, I'd view the Transformers books as taking place 
in alternate timelines.  Death's Head does plenty of time-jumping which 
would bring him into the mainstream continuity.  Incidentally, UK and US 
Transformers continuity are not identical and amount to two separate 
continuities (even though the UK book makes heavy use of reprinted US 
stories, they often had to be drastically relettered to harmonise the 
continuity).

> Nam

This is canon - the Punisher appears in it.  Bizarre, I know, but there 
you are.

> Nth Man: The Ultimate Ninja

Interacted with Excalibur, but as a parallel universe.  Borderline case, 
and my inclination would be to say it's not part of the Marvel Universe.

> Red Sonja (all volumes)

See Conan.

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Re: Non-Canon List Additions
Posted by ShadZ on December 09, 2002 at 00:05:21:
In Reply to: Re: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by Paul O'Brien on December 07, 2002 at 08:21:17:

> > Francis, Brother of the Universe

> What the heck was that?

A one-shot biography of St. Francis of Assisi (SP?).  As non-fiction (well, 
it presents St. Francis's miracles as fact), I don't see why it wouldn't be 
cannon.  However, unless any of the historical figures in the book made 
appearances in one of Marvel's fiction books, it's also totally irelivent 
to the MCP, and there's no reason to add it... IMHO.

ShadZ

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Re: Non-Canon List Additions
Posted by Jhaeman on December 09, 2002 at 11:22:24:
In Reply to: Re: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by ShadZ on December 09, 2002 at 00:05:21:

If anyone is really curious about the book (Marvel's first foray into 
religious comics), I devote a column to it at 
www.geocities.com/jhaeman/Comics/index.html

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Re: Non-Canon List Additions
Posted by ShadZ on December 10, 2002 at 02:09:05:
In Reply to: Re: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by Jhaeman on December 09, 2002 at 11:22:24:

I thought it was their second -- the biography of Pope John Paul II being 
the first one...

ShadZ

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Re: Non-Canon List Additions
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 07, 2002 at 08:29:00:
In Reply to: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by Jhaeman on December 07, 2002 at 00:12:42:

While I'm at it, a few comments on the existing list.

Is CAGE vol 2 definitely out of continuity?  Recent issues of DAREDEVIL and 
ALIAS have reflected the costume shown in that series.

DRAGON'S CLAWS interacts with DEATH'S HEAD, which is certainly canon.  It's 
off to the side somewhere, admittedly.

EARTH X etc: I haven't been reading this, but doesn't PARADISE X involve 
gathering various characters from pre-published alternate timelines?  Would 
that suggest that Earth X must be out there somewhere as a parallel universe?

Regarding WHAT IF?, there's an issue of QUASAR where the Living Laser visits 
the Watcher's home on the moon, and he can be seen watching the events that 
appeared in that month's What If?.  I'd take that as confirming that the 
framing sequence appearances of the Watcher are valid continuity.  Perhaps 
he's just dictating or something, if the idea of talking to camera is a 
problem.

SPIDER-MAN CHAPTER ONE is apparently no longer recognised as continuity and 
should be on the list.  So should Byrne's HULK annual which drastically 
retconned the character's origin.  (A later issue of Captain Marvel appears 
to confirm the non-canon status of this story by showing Rick Jones reading 
the issue and mocking its inaccuracy.)

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Re: Non-Canon List Additions
Posted by garbonzo on December 07, 2002 at 14:51:46:
In Reply to: Re: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by Paul O'Brien on December 07, 2002 at 08:29:00:

> Is CAGE vol 2 definitely out of continuity?  Recent issues of DAREDEVIL 
and ALIAS have reflected the costume shown in that series.

I will agree that the recent issues of Daredevil and Alias have reflected 
a change in costume  (what recent series that included Cage has not had a 
change of costume?) but there is one physical characteristic that has been 
absent.  In the Cage2 miniseries, Cage is sporting a very prominent gold 
tooth.  Recent issues of DD and Alias have not shown this.  Now I realize 
that this is shaky grounds for making something in or out of canon, but it 
is important.  Does this mean that Cage got his tooth knocked out after the 
current storyline (in all his other beatings have we ever seen him get a 
tooth knocked out?) or he has gotten it fixed since CAGE2.

Which leads to another problem with CAGE 2 being in canon - his language.  
While Cage has always benn "a bad mutha from the streets" he has never had 
the kind of problems wit hthe english language that he demonstrated in CAGE 
2.  In addition, he has not shown it since.  

Therefore I am inclined to believe that CAGE2 is just the fancy of a writer 
trying to come up with a better tag line for Cage thatn "Sweet Christmas!" 
and should not be counted as canon.

As for his costume change...maybe he likes Wolverines new shirtless-under-
leather-jacket look and has decided to go with it.

garbonzo

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Mainstream Marvel Universe versus MAX Universe
Posted by Don Campbell on December 09, 2002 at 12:43:35:
In Reply to: Re: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by garbonzo on December 07, 2002 at 14:51:46:

> > Is CAGE vol 2 definitely out of continuity?  Recent issues of DAREDEVIL 
and ALIAS have reflected the costume shown in that series.

It is my understanding that Marvel's MAX titles exist in a slightly-different 
universe than those titles set in what we call the "mainstream" Marvel 
Universe. I remember (or think I remember) reading an online interview with 
someone (possibly Brian Michael Bendis) who said something to the effect 
that while everything that happens in the mainstream Marvel books also 
happens in the MAX universe, happenings that are depicted exclusively in the 
MAX titles do not neccessarily happen in the mainstream MU. I don't remember 
where I read this and I have no idea whether or not this is official Marvel 
policy or just the opinion of the writer being interviewed (whoever he was).

Don Campbell

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Re: Mainstream Marvel Universe versus MAX Universe
Posted by Philippe on December 09, 2002 at 15:47:37:
In Reply to: "Mainstream" Marvel Universe versus MAX Universe
posted by Don Campbell on December 09, 2002 at 12:43:35:

> It is my understanding that Marvel's MAX titles exist in a slightly-
different universe than those titles set in what we call the "mainstream" 
Marvel Universe. 

This certainly doesn't apply to Alias. See the current Spider-Woman 
storyline, or Matt Murdock's appearances.

Philippe

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Re: Mainstream Marvel Universe versus MAX Universe
Posted by Jeph! on December 09, 2002 at 23:34:42:
In Reply to: Re: "Mainstream" Marvel Universe versus MAX Universe
posted by Philippe on December 09, 2002 at 15:47:37:

> > It is my understanding that Marvel's MAX titles exist in a slightly-
different universe than those titles set in what we call the "mainstream" 
Marvel Universe. 

> This certainly doesn't apply to Alias. See the current Spider-Woman 
storyline, or Matt Murdock's appearances.

Sure it could.  Re-read what Don wrote:

"while everything that happens in the mainstream Marvel books also happens 
in the MAX universe, happenings that are depicted exclusively in the MAX 
titles do not neccessarily happen in the mainstream MU."

Events from other books can be reflected in "Alias" to their hearts' content, 
according to Don's paraphrasing of Bendis, without "Alias" necessarily being 
canon.  The real test of canonicity is if we see events from "Alias" 
reflected in OTHER books.

So far, we've seen Jessica Jones appear in Daredevil, but I don't think she 
said anything about her own storylines.

It's still ambiguous, but I believe that Alias IS in continuity.  If Bendis 
said anything like Don's comments, it's probably to cover his own ass -- so 
he can say that, for example, the Luke Cage anal sex scene never took place 
in the Marvel Universe.

Y'see?

-Jeph!

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Re: Mainstream Marvel Universe versus MAX Universe
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 10, 2002 at 07:41:57:
In Reply to: Re: "Mainstream" Marvel Universe versus MAX Universe
posted by Jeph! on December 09, 2002 at 23:34:42:

> It's still ambiguous, but I believe that Alias IS in continuity.  If Bendis 
said anything like Don's comments, it's probably to cover his own ass -- so 
he can say that, for example, the Luke Cage anal sex scene never took place 
in the Marvel Universe.

Bendis' position, in interviews, is that ALIAS is emphatically canon.  He 
says that the series wouldn't work unless it was the "real" characters being 
used.  Incidentally, recent issues of ALIAS have interacted with DAREDEVIL - 
for example, an entire issue of Alias consisted of Jessica Jones and Luke 
Cage having a conversation outside the room where the Black Widow was 
shouting at Matt Murdock in that month's issue of Daredevil.  For that 
matter, we saw Jessica enlisted as Matt's bodyguard in an issue of Alias, 
and she then duly turned up in Daredevil.

The rest of the Max imprint is more hazy.  FURY is obviously not canon, and 
nor is US WAR MACHINE.  CAGE is questionable and I'm not sure even the 
creators really put much thought into it one way or the other.  SHANG-CHI: 
MASTER OF KUNG FU seems to be intended as canon, since it appears to accept 
the 1970s title as setting out its back story.  It's best decided on a case-
by-case basis.

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Re: Mainstream Marvel Universe versus MAX Universe
Posted by Don Campbell on December 10, 2002 at 11:15:53:
In Reply to: Re: "Mainstream" Marvel Universe versus MAX Universe
posted by Paul O'Brien on December 10, 2002 at 07:41:57:

> Bendis' position, in interviews, is that ALIAS is emphatically canon.  He 
says that the series wouldn't work unless it was the "real" characters being 
used.

I feel that I should emphasize something. In my original posting, I 
attributed the statement about Alias not taking place in the mainstream 
Marvel Universe to "someone (possibly Brian Michael Bendis)." Since I wasn't 
(and still am not) certain that it was Bendis giving the interview, perhaps 
I should have said that the interview was with someone working at Marvel (a 
writer or an editor) who said that the MAX imprint titles were not quite set 
in the mainstream Marvel Universe. It's possible that the connection to 
Alias and Bendis came from my own mind. Now that I think about it some more, 
I remember reading something about an upcoming secret project by J. Michael 
Straczynski. Little was said about this project except that it was going to 
be set in a similar-but-different version of the MU and that it was going to 
be a MAX imprint because that's were the MAX titles were already set. It may 
be that I combined the contents of two interviews into one. At this point I 
can't be sure anymore.

AAARRRGGGHHH!!! I wish that I could remember WHERE I saw that interview (and 
what it ACTUALLY said). I think it was at Comic Book Resources but I dug 
around their archived stories and couldn't find it. Is there any chance that 
anyone out there also remembers that interview?

Don Campbell

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Re: Mainstream Marvel Universe versus MAX Universe
Posted by Philippe on December 10, 2002 at 09:22:39:
In Reply to: Re: "Mainstream" Marvel Universe versus MAX Universe
posted by Jeph! on December 09, 2002 at 23:34:42:

> >  
> > > It is my understanding that Marvel's MAX titles exist in a slightly-
different universe than those titles set in what we call the "mainstream" 
Marvel Universe. 

> > This certainly doesn't apply to Alias. See the current Spider-Woman 
storyline, or Matt Murdock's appearances.

> Sure it could.  Re-read what Don wrote:

> "while everything that happens in the mainstream Marvel books also happens 
in the MAX universe, happenings that are depicted exclusively in the MAX 
titles do not neccessarily happen in the mainstream MU."

You're both right, and indeed the events in Alias could happen in some kind 
of parallel MU. It's just that to me the story works better if it happens in 
the real MU. So far nothing contradicts that it does, but I can't proove it. 
Damn ! We'll have to wait and see...

> Events from other books can be reflected in "Alias" to their hearts' 
content, according to Don's paraphrasing of Bendis, without "Alias" 
necessarily being canon.  The real test of canonicity is if we see events 
from "Alias" reflected in OTHER books.

Yes, but as long as nothing in Alias contradicts what happens in other books, 
it can also be considered canon. My point was that when the first issues of 
Fury or U.S. War Machine came out, we knew that these stories could NOT 
happen in the MU. The stories in Alias can, and I think they do, even if it's 
probably too soon to have a definitive answer.

Philippe

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Re: Non-Canon List Additions
Posted by Jeph! on December 08, 2002 at 00:11:06:
In Reply to: Re: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by Paul O'Brien on December 07, 2002 at 08:29:00:

> SPIDER-MAN CHAPTER ONE is apparently no longer recognised as continuity 
and should be on the list.

Can you back that up?  I realize that, by its nature, SMC1 pretty much 
retconned/ignored lots of older Spidey continuity, but has anyone ever said, 
or written, that SMC1 is DEFINITIVELY out of continuity?

> So should Byrne's HULK annual which drastically retconned the character's 
origin.  (A later issue of Captain Marvel appears to confirm the non-canon 
status of this story by showing Rick Jones reading the issue and mocking its 
inaccuracy.)

Hah!  That's really funny!

What about "X-Men: Children of the Atom", which re-wrote much of the X-Men's 
early history in the same way as SMC1 did Spidey's?  It certainly doesn't 
READ like it's out of continuity, but I have a perverse notion that it can 
be made to interlock eith the old back-ups from UX #37-53, rather than 
overwriting them completely ...

Personally, I'd call it "non-canon until proven canon" -- and I'll be working 
on that proof eventually.

-Jeph!

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Re: Non-Canon List Additions
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 08, 2002 at 10:31:28:
In Reply to: Re: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by Jeph! on December 08, 2002 at 00:11:06:

> Can you back that up?  I realize that, by its nature, SMC1 pretty much 
retconned/ignored lots of older Spidey continuity, but has anyone ever said, 
or written, that SMC1 is DEFINITIVELY out of continuity?

From memory, I believe post-Byrne issues of PETER PARKER, SPIDER-MAN have 
quietly but clearly used flashbacks to the original ASM stories, as has 
TANGLED WEB.

Now, this does create a problem for one ASM2 storyline, where the plot 
hinges on Dr Octopus and Spider-Man sharing the same origin (an explosion 
at a scientific experiment gone wrong).  Nonetheless, the prevailing wisdom 
at Marvel these days seems to be that, although Chapter One was certainly 
intended to be canon at the time, it was a terrible misfire and best not 
spoken about.

> What about "X-Men: Children of the Atom", which re-wrote much of the 
X-Men's early history in the same way as SMC1 did Spidey's?  It certainly 
doesn't READ like it's out of continuity, but I have a perverse notion that 
it can be made to interlock eith the old back-ups from UX #37-53, rather 
than overwriting them completely ...

X-Men: Children of the Atom is not canon.  It completely contradicts vast 
chunks of the "origin of the X-Men" backup strips, not least by relocating 
everyone's home town to the same place.  It makes repeated nods to the 
original stories (for example, the football team Hank is playing against in 
one issue is named after El Conquistador, the villain in his origin story).  
But the entire structure and plot is totally irreconcilable with the X-Men 
stories as originally published - an episodic plot in which Xavier and his 
growing band of followers tour North America picking up newbies as they go.  
It's either out of continuity or a huge, enormous retcon.

Since COTA has never been referred to in the mainstream series, the 
conclusion must be that it's out of continuity.  I think Joe Casey expressed 
the opinion that is was canon, but Casey is long gone now, and I don't recall 
any Marvel editorial staff backing him up on it.

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Re: Non-Canon List Additions
Posted by Kevin  on December 09, 2002 at 08:57:19:
In Reply to: Re: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by Paul O'Brien on December 08, 2002 at 10:31:28:

> > Can you back that up?  I realize that, by its nature, SMC1 pretty much 
retconned/ignored lots of older Spidey continuity, but has anyone ever said, 
or written, that SMC1 is DEFINITIVELY out of continuity?

> From memory, I believe post-Byrne issues of PETER PARKER, SPIDER-MAN have 
quietly but clearly used flashbacks to the original ASM stories, as has 
TANGLED WEB.

> Now, this does create a problem for one ASM2 storyline, where the plot 
hinges on Dr Octopus and Spider-Man sharing the same origin (an explosion 
at a scientific experiment gone wrong).  Nonetheless, the prevailing wisdom 
at Marvel these days seems to be that, although Chapter One was certainly 
intended to be canon at the time, it was a terrible misfire and best not 
spoken about.

Plus, I could have sworn I've seen the Administrator say that it's non 
canon.  And if he says it's non canon, I'm willing to believe him!  (It 
seems we're all just really wanting to make SPiderman: Chapter One disapear 
from our minds.)

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Re: Non-Canon List Additions
Posted by Jeph! on December 09, 2002 at 09:57:48:
In Reply to: Re: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by Kevin  on December 09, 2002 at 08:57:19:

I agree -- it seems quite clear that SMC1 and X:CotA deviate SO far fom the 
original stories that they can't possibly be reconciled.  But I just want to 
be SURE that they're non-canon before we toss them entirely.  I'm just double-
checking.

-Jeph!

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Children of the Atom
Posted by Jeph! on December 09, 2002 at 10:11:56:
In Reply to: Re: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by Paul O'Brien on December 08, 2002 at 10:31:28:

> > What about "X-Men: Children of the Atom" ... I have a perverse notion 
that it can be made to interlock eith the old back-ups from UX #37-53, rather 
than overwriting them completely ...

> X-Men: Children of the Atom is not canon.

As I read it for the first time, my mind was whirling, trying to figure out 
ways in which this story COULD fit in with the old back-ups.  I hadn't 
considered that it WASN'T canon, and so came up with some interesting 
rationalizations...

> It completely contradicts vast chunks of the "origin of the X-Men" backup 
strips, not least by relocating everyone's home town to the same place.

Actually -- Jean and Warren stayed where they were (Upstate NY and Long 
Island), and Bobby was from New Jersey in the original books -- the only 
real problems are Scott (from an orphanage in Nevada) and Hank (from, god, 
I forget).

I explained Hank's presence by saying that, just like pro ball and college 
players are bought, sold, and traded by teams, Hank was SUCH a football 
prodigy that the NY high school they attended made him a fabulous offer to 
transfer schools.

Bobby, I said, was from across the river -- it wouldn't be THAT big a deal 
to commute to school.

And Scott was an orphan -- a runaway at that point.  He could have been 
anywhere.

Failing that, I rationalized that Prof. X's mighty mutant powers "convinced" 
them all to attend the same school.  I thought it was a neat idea that he 
wanted all his students to attend the same school long before he decided to 
use his HOUSE as that school.

But, yeah, when you come down to it -- there's just too many things wrong.  
Scott not getting his visor until ALL the X-men had been gathered, etc etc.  
As you say:

> It's either out of continuity or a huge, enormous retcon.

> Since COTA has never been referred to in the mainstream series, the 
conclusion must be that it's out of continuity.

I don't know as that's necessarily true -- NEITHER version of events has 
been referenced since the book came out.  We have no REAL way of knowing 
which is the "official" version now, save for the knowledge that the original 
version Came First.  As you say, CotA could simply be an enormous retcon -- 
although, have we ever seen one on this scale before?  Most retcons show the 
previous version of events, then show you what "really" happened -- this 
series simply steamrolls over the old stories.

Eh.  I'm inclined to think it's not canon, as well ... but there's still 
that dark part of my mind trying to jam it between pages of the original 
books...

-Jeph!

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What If?: Ultimate Paradise X: Chapter One?
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 09, 2002 at 09:20:58:
In Reply to: Re: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by Paul O'Brien on December 07, 2002 at 08:29:00:

> EARTH X etc: I haven't been reading this, but doesn't PARADISE X involve 
gathering various characters from pre-published alternate timelines?  Would 
that suggest that Earth X must be out there somewhere as a parallel universe?

EARTH/UNIVERSE/PARADISE X (which I've been reading from day 1), while 
entertaining, is a multiverse distinct from the one we know.  It does indeed 
use characters from other timelines, such as Killraven, the Guardians of the 
Galaxy, Deathlok, etc.  OTOH, events shown in the past are so far apart from 
excepted concepts as to exclude them from continuity.  A few that I can 
think of quickly are:

Asgardians are shapeshifting aliens.

The origins of Thanos.

Wolverine is not a mutant, but a distant cousin of Moon Boy of Devil Dinosaur 
fame.

The X series is just Alex Ross and friends running amok with their 
interpretations of the Marvel Universe.  It follows, then, the the EARTH X 
characters seen at the end of AVENGERS FOREVER should be seen as the Marvel 
Universe versions of these, and the only appearances of them, at that.

> Regarding WHAT IF?, there's an issue of QUASAR where the Living Laser 
visits the Watcher's home on the moon, and he can be seen watching the events 
that appeared in that month's What If?.  I'd take that as confirming that the 
framing sequence appearances of the Watcher are valid continuity.  Perhaps 
he's just dictating or something, if the idea of talking to camera is a 
problem.

QUASAR stongly implied that all the Watcher appearances in WHAT IF? v1 & 2 
are the Mainstream Universe's Uatu, whatever the explanation might be for 
his exposition.  Regarding the realities seen in each issue of those series, 
they are all parallel universes and, therefore, canon.  Still, unless they 
have some special significance, the majority of them can be overlooked for 
indexing purposes.  Exceptions that we might index would be those realities 
visited more than once:

The realities QUASAR visited.

The realities in FANTASTIC FOUR's Abraxas saga.  (not sure about these)

Also important to consider in WHAT IF?s would be any events that happened 
in the past (that is, at some point before the reality diverged from the 
mainstream) that have not been shown anywhere else.

On the subject of the New Universe, I'd treat all the characters to their 
own page, ala Killraven Mythos or 2099.

Lastly, while MC2 (SPIDER-GIRL, A-NEXT, etc) has crossed over with the 
Mainstream and deserves its own page some time in the future, 
EARTH/UNIVERSE/PARADISE X can be slipped in a category with the ULTIMATE 
books, who have No bearing at all on the MCP and do not warrant inclusion.

I won't even dignify CHAPTER ONE with a response.  :->

- StAkAr Karnak

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Re: Non-Canon List Additions
Posted by DCW3 on December 07, 2002 at 14:36:34:
In Reply to: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by Jhaeman on December 07, 2002 at 00:12:42:

Don't be so quick to dismiss ALF. If you can believe it, the High 
Evolutionary has a couple appearances in that series listed on the MCP...

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Re: Non-Canon List Additions
Posted by Andy Holcombe on December 07, 2002 at 17:55:59:
In Reply to: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by Jhaeman on December 07, 2002 at 00:12:42:

> I'm glad we have a new list of non-canon books from Marvel or its various 
imprints on the FAQ.

I would like to submit the Morlocks mini-series for this list.  Also, when 
is an alternate reality/future considered "non-canon?"

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Alternate Reality
Posted by Jeph! on December 08, 2002 at 00:05:38:
In Reply to: Re: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by Andy Holcombe on December 07, 2002 at 17:55:59:

> when is an alternate reality/future considered "non-canon?"

Well, it depends on your defenition of "canon".

As far as I'm concerned, if the story takes place in a world or time that 
falls under the "Marvel Multiverse" umbrella, then it IS a canon story -- it 
"exists", as much as we consider the MU to exist.  All of the alternate 
worlds that have CROSSED OVER with the main Marvel U. fall into this 
category, as do all alternate futures that have sprung from any of those 
worlds.

"Morlocks", to use your example above, is set on a Marvel-LIKE earth -- but 
no characters from the series have shown up in the main MU, and vice versa.  
So it's non-canon -- we have no PROOF that it actually has ties to the Marvel 
Multiverse, aside from its amazing similarity.

Same with the "Ultimate" books -- despite their obvious links to the MU, we 
have no proof that they ACTUALLY inhabit the Marvel Multiverse.  (Unless you 
count Ultimate Wolverine's brief cameo in XU #37 -- which I dismiss as an art 
gag.)  They have never had, and likely WILL never have, any impact on the 
main ("616") Marvel U., and so are not considered part of the canon.

But the characters from the Squadron Supreme, and their earth -- they count.  
Their world and characters are in-canon, because we have proof of many 
crossings between the worlds.

The real question here is, at what point does the MCP stop caring?

Using the X-Men as an example, we seem to be including all the characters 
from the "Days of Future Past" future timeline, as well as Bishop's and 
Cable's respective futures.  Alternate futures all, but included because 
they're the home of a character who now resides in the main MU.

(It's my hope that one day alternate worlds all be on their own sub-pages, 
but that's a project for another day.)

"Paradise X", on the other hand ... well, yes, sevaral characters from other 
timelines have been transported INTO the book, but I don't think that means 
we have to write up the whole series -- it's set in an alternate future that 
NO MAIN characters call "home".  Just because Bloodscream and DOFP-Wolverine 
have been brought into the book doesn't make the BOOK canon -- it just makes 
THEIR APPEARANCES IN the book canon.

(And, really, if the other Universe X characters don't bleed out into other 
books, why bother chronologizing them?  Just read the EX/UX/PX books in order, 
and there's your chronology.)

It's really on a case-by-case basis.  Death's Head originated in the 
TransFormers universe, as has been brought up before -- but we treat that 
as a Canon Appearance of a Canon Character in a Non-Canon Book.  Someone 
mentioned that the High Evolutionary has been seen (and logged!) in "Alf".  
Characters from the 616 Marvel Universe have been seen in framing sequences 
in issues of "What If" -- which, even though the alternate worlds presented 
there are "canon" as they relate to the Marvel Multiverse, are ignored by 
the MCP.  These are all cases where the BOOK isn't MCP canon, but the 
APPEARANCES sure are...

It's tricky, and, as I say, should best be done on a case-by-case basis.  
But there's a world of difference between a "canon" book and a book that the 
MCP cares about enough to archive.

The minute that the alternate Nova from "What If" #36 becomes a member of 
OUR world's Avengers, THEN and ONLY then do we archive the listings for the 
REST of the characters in the book.

Anyone else care to give THEIR definiton of "canon"?  I'm finding it really 
hard to boil down to something simple.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Non-Canon Titles
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 13, 2002 at 07:07:23:
In Reply to: Non-Canon List Additions
posted by Jhaeman on December 07, 2002 at 00:12:42:

Wouldn't it be great if Marvel actually labelled their books so that you'd 
have a clue about intended canonicity?  There have been several times I've 
purchased a title only to discover that it "doesn't count" in the mainstream 
MU.  Since continuity has been such a hallmark of Marvel, you'd think that 
they'd help readers navigate through the plethora of alternate universe,what 
ifs,loose interpretations,and assorted other clutter.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Silver Surfer (first series)
Posted by Paul Burgon on December 07, 2002 at 15:35:41:

Hi, further to my earlier posting on Shalla Bal's appearances, I've a few 
other corrections concerning characters appearing in the first series of 
Silver Surfer.

FRANKENSTEIN MONSTER

original entry

SS 7

revised entry

SS 7-FB

MEPHISTO

original entry

T 181
SS 17
T 204

revised entry

T 181
SS 16
SS 17
T 204

appearance in SS 16 added.

SHALLA BAL

original entry

SS3 50-FB
SS 2-FB

revised entry

SS3 50-FB
SS 2-FB
SS 1-FB

appearance in SS 1-FB added (her first appearance).

SHALLA BAL II

original entry
SS 1
SS 2
SS 3
SS 8

revised entry

SS 2
SS 3
SS 6
SS 8

appearance in SS 1 removed (Shalla Bal's only appearance in SS 1 was in the 
flashback, and was therefore an appearance of Shalla Bal I).
appearance in SS 6 added.

SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD

original entry

SS 1-FB
SS 2-FB

revised entry

SS 2-FB
SS 1-FB

I also feel that the Hulk and maybe the Thing and Tomazooma, should have 
entries for their appearances in SS 4, though I suppose this depends on 
what you consider the nature of these appearances to be.

Also shouldn't Brother Royal and the Monster of Badoon (from SS 2) and 
Victor Frankenstein (SS 7) have entries? they all made further appearances 
in other comics.

keep up the good work

Paul Burgon

			*	*	*

Badoon nomenclature
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 11, 2002 at 18:31:43:
In Reply to: Silver Surfer (first series)
posted by Paul Burgon on December 07, 2002 at 15:35:41:

> shouldn't Brother Royal and the Monster of Badoon (from SS 2) ... have 
entries? they all made further appearances in other comics.

"Brother Royal" is only a title, something like Captain.  The name of that 
particular Badoon was never given.  A Badoon in MAXSEC:DP identified himself 
as "Brother Manat."  Whether Manat is also a title equivalent to, say, 
Ambassador, hasn't been established.

Similarly, Monsters of Badoon have individual names, such as Joonvit, 
Nebula's lackey from NOVA v3(?) #1.  We've also seen a Monster of Badoon in 
M/TIO 4 & 5.  This couldn't have been the same guy from SS 2, because the 
story took place in 3014.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

need some help RE: captain brittain flashbacks in Universe x #2
Posted by comico on December 07, 2002 at 22:03:39:

can anyone help me identify where the following flashbacks appeared?

universe x #2 page 2,panel 3. capt.brittain fought alongside the black knight 
in?

page 2-3 double page panel captain brittain died fighting the fury in?

page 3 panel 1 merlin reconstructed captain brittain's body in?

page 3 panel 2 merlin's funeral was in?

page 4 panel 2 psylocke was blinded by (who is that guy)in what issue? and 
where did the guy first appear

i need this info for annotations to universe x i'm doing.if anyone can help 
it'd be greatly appreciated

Jess

			*	*	*

Re: need some help RE: captain brittain flashbacks in Universe x #2
Posted by Jeph! on December 07, 2002 at 23:42:15:
In Reply to: need some help RE: captain brittain flashbacks in Universe x #2
posted by comico on December 07, 2002 at 22:03:39:

> can anyone help me identify where the following flashbacks appeared?

Absolutely!  By the way, right off the bat, it's "Britain", with one T.

> universe x #2 page 2,panel 3. capt.brittain fought alongside the black 
knight in?

CB and the Black Knight fought together over the entire run of Marvel UK's 
"Hulk Comic"/"The Incredible Hulk Weekly" -- from #5-60 (with gaps).  If you 
could give me a little more info on who or what they're fighting in the FB, 
I could be of more help here...

> page 2-3 double page panel captain brittain died fighting the fury in?

Marvel UK's "Marvel Super Heroes" Magazine, issue #388.

> page 3 panel 1 merlin reconstructed captain brittain's body in?

Marvel UK's "The Daredevils" #1.

> page 3 panel 2 merlin's funeral was in?

Marvel UK's "The Mighty World of Marvel" #16.

> page 4 panel 2 psylocke was blinded by (who is that guy)in what issue?

The guy is Slaymaster, and the issue is Marvel UK's "Captain Britain" vol. 2 
#13.

> and where did the guy first appear

Marvel UK's "Super Spider-Man" #243, second story.

Hope that helped!  Let me know if you need any more info on ol' CB...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: need some help RE: captain brittain flashbacks in Universe x #2
Posted by Andy H on December 08, 2002 at 02:06:55:
In Reply to: Re: need some help RE: captain brittain flashbacks in Universe x #2
posted by Jeph! on December 07, 2002 at 23:42:15:

> > page 3 panel 2 merlin's funeral was in?

> Marvel UK's "The Mighty World of Marvel" #16.

Mighty World of Marvel #16 was entitled "In all the old familiar places" it 
was written by Alan Davis and Mike Collins. It was reprinted in the first 
Captain Britain trade from 1988

Merlins funeral was shown in the last panel of Mighty World of Marvel #12 
entitled "endgame" and was continued in Mighty World Of Marvel #13 entitled 
"funeral on otherworld"

			*	*	*

godzilla
Posted by tiberius khan on December 07, 2002 at 22:28:43:

hi there, i'm looking for info on the godzilla series form the 70's. there 
is no listing on the site for the book. i want to know how many issues it 
ran and if there were any annuals,etc. thanks  +prince of void+

			*	*	*

Re: godzilla
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 08, 2002 at 00:49:21:
In Reply to: godzilla
posted by tiberius khan on December 07, 2002 at 22:28:43:

Marvel's Godzilla ran for 24 issues (1977-1979). No Annuals.

			*	*	*

Need Information
Posted by The Real Deborah Steckley on December 07, 2002 at 22:43:44:

If anyone can give me information on "Holly Deborah Steckley" I would 
greatly appreciate it.  Has anyone actually known of anyone, other than 
myself, with the name Deborah Steckley?  I'm not sure if I like my name 
being used in the comics.  Please provide some insight.

			*	*	*

Re: Need Information
Posted by Administrator on December 07, 2002 at 23:28:20:
In Reply to: Need Information
posted by The Real Deborah Steckley on December 07, 2002 at 22:43:44:

H.D. Steckley was a false identity adopted by Moondragon in some of her 
appearances in Quasar. This was about ten years ago.

			*	*	*

Is it possible to edit?
Posted by Deborah Steckley on December 08, 2002 at 21:04:08:
In Reply to: Re: Need Information
posted by Administrator on December 07, 2002 at 23:28:20:

~Would there be a possibility that "Holly Deborah Steckley" could be edited 
to "H.D. Steckley".  I would greatly appreciate this if it would be possible.

			*	*	*

H.D. Steckley
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 08, 2002 at 21:40:58:
In Reply to: Is it possible to edit?
posted by Deborah Steckley on December 08, 2002 at 21:04:08:

> > H.D. Steckley was a false identity adopted by Moondragon in some of her 
appearances in Quasar. This was about ten years ago.

just to let you know...the H.D. in H.D. Steckley  stands for Heather Douglas.

			*	*	*

Re: Is it possible to edit?
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 09, 2002 at 08:51:58:
In Reply to: Is it possible to edit?
posted by Deborah Steckley on December 08, 2002 at 21:04:08:

> > Would there be a possibility that "Holly Deborah Steckley" could be edited 
to "H.D. Steckley". I would greatly appreciate this if it would be possible.

> just to let you know...the H.D. in H.D. Steckley stands for Heather Douglas.

Looking up Steckley in the MCP, I found this:

STECKLEY, HEATHER DOUGLAS "H.D." (see Moondragon)

Under Moonie's entry, it says this:

MOONDRAGON/HEATHER DOUGLAS

I remember an issue of QUASAR after H.D. Steckley had been revealed to 
actually be Moonie, and she then left the book for adventures elsewhere.  
Another woman shows up claiming to be the real H.D. Steckley.  This 
individual was not directly listed in the MCP.  Looking at the Quantum 
Zone, #30 has an appearance reference to "Ereshkigal (as H.D. Steckley)".  
I haven't read that far yet in the series (slowly aquiring back-issues), 
so I don't know the story with this person.

Looking there in the MCP, we find:

ERISHKIGEL II/"HOLLY DEBORAH STECKLEY"

So I think that's what our flesh-and-blood friend is referring to.  My 
suggestion would be to add/revise the MCP like so:

ERISHKIGEL II/"HOLLY DEBORAH STECKLEY"

MOONDRAGON/HEATHER DOUGLAS/"H.D. STECKLEY"

STECKLEY, H.D. I (see MOONDRAGON)
STECKLEY, H.D. II (see ERISHKIGEL II)

As for our f.a.b. H.D., whether you like it or not, your name was used in 
some funnybooks a decade ago.  You can't complain to the author, since he 
passed away some years ago.  As for deleting this character's name, the 
MCP does not intend to condone the use of it, but neither can it deny that 
the character existed.  OTOH, without the MCP, you wouldn't know that this 
character had your name to begin with.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

what about ALPHA FLIGHT VOL. I #116-120???
Posted by thom on December 08, 2002 at 11:28:29:

while they are undoubtedly inside regular marvel contuinity (for the 
involvement in the infinity war & crusade, for exemple), none of alpha 
flight issue #116 to #130 are indexed on the site. Is this just a momentary 
problem, or did someone decided it is evil clones of the alphans appearing 
in those issueq, or that they are set in a different continuity (which is 
just not possible)?

please help me on that!

			*	*	*

Re: what about ALPHA FLIGHT VOL. I #116-120???
Posted by Jeph! on December 08, 2002 at 21:27:08:
In Reply to: what about ALPHA FLIGHT VOL. I #116-120???
posted by thom on December 08, 2002 at 11:28:29:

> none of alpha flight issue #116 to #130 are indexed on the site. Is this 
just a momentary problem...?

Yep -- it's a momentary problem.

A gap exists on the MCP, covering anything published from mid-1993 to late 
1994.  Russ is slowly filling it in, but for right now nothing published in 
that time-frame is on the site.

There's more information about the Gap on the MCP FAQ -- click the link in 
the side bar to read more.

Check back in a few months -- more books may be up.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: what about ALPHA FLIGHT VOL. I #116-120???
Posted by thom on December 09, 2002 at 09:28:55:
In Reply to: Re: what about ALPHA FLIGHT VOL. I #116-120???
posted by Jeph! on December 08, 2002 at 21:27:08:

Thank you for your answer, i realized i askesd a stupid question moments 
after sending this mail when i found out about the gap...

is there any way of helping you filling it?

			*	*	*

Re: what about ALPHA FLIGHT VOL. I #116-120???
Posted by Jeph! on December 09, 2002 at 09:53:14:
In Reply to: Re: what about ALPHA FLIGHT VOL. I #116-120???
posted by thom on December 09, 2002 at 09:28:55:

> is there any way of helping you filling it?

Not really, no -- the '93-'94 Gap seems to be something that Russ wants to 
tackle all by himself.  On the other hand, we have a SECOND gap in the 
Project for which IS open to the public ... on the side-bar, there's a link 
to the "Closing the Gap" page -- there you'll find a list of books for which 
we're taking submissions.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

REPOST: tracking proposal
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 09, 2002 at 09:52:02:

It's been a while since I posted this and, while I'm not trying to twist 
any arms into using it, I thought it might be a nice reminder for some and 
a welcome reference for those who haven't seen it before.

If anyone would like to help flesh it out, that'd be more than welcome.

As you were.

- StAkAr Karnak

http://www.geocities.com/glakandar/propose.htm

			*	*	*

Re: Defenders line-up
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 13, 2002 at 21:56:38:
In Reply to: REPOST: tracking proposal
posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 09, 2002 at 09:52:02:

If you'd like to flesh out the Defenders roster, here goes (largely from 
memory, in rough chronological order).  Membership in this "non-team" might 
be arguable...

Dr. Strange
Hulk
Sub-Mariner
Silver Surfer
Valkyrie
Hawkeye
Black Knight III
Nighthawk II
Power Man II
Son of Satan (now Hellstorm)
Daredevil
Yellowjacket
Thing
Vance Astro
Charlie 27
Martinex
Yondu
Starhawk
Red Guardian II (now Starlight)
Clea
Howard the Duck
Hellcat
Moon Knight
Devil-Slayer
Ms. Marvel I (now Warbird)
Captain Marvel I
Falcon
Jack of Hearts
White Tiger I
Torpedo I
Havok
Polaris
Marvel Man (now Quasar III)
Tagak
Hercules
Nova I
Black Goliath (now Giant-Man II)
Stingray
Iron Fist
Prowler
Captain Ultra
Aeroika
Fool-Killer
Wasp
Moondragon
Black Panther
Gargoyle II
Captain America
Mr. Fantastic
Spider-Man
Beast
Over-Mind
Iceman
Angel III (now Archangel)
Cloud
Candy Southern
Manslaughter
Interloper
Valkyrie III

The list does not include "Secret Defenders."

The following villains posed as Defenders: Porcupine, Beetle, Whirlwind, 
Blob, Sagittarius II, Batroc, Looter, and a Plantman Simuloid.

I may have left out a few, but I hope this helps.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Defenders line-up
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 14, 2002 at 21:52:16:
In Reply to: Re: Defenders line-up
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 13, 2002 at 21:56:38:

> If you'd like to flesh out the Defenders roster, here goes (largely from 
memory, in rough chronological order). Membership in this "non-team" might 
be arguable...

I know what you mean.  I've debated whether the Guardians should be counted 
or not for a while, but I've only read 6 issues of the original series 
(GSDEF 3 & 5, DEF 26-29) and wasn't sure.

As for members' names, I'd be inclined to go with ones that they bore while 
on the team.

> The list does not include "Secret Defenders."

Anyone happen to know who they included?

> The following villains posed as Defenders: Porcupine, Beetle, Whirlwind, 
Blob, Sagittarius II, Batroc, Looter, and a Plantman Simuloid.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by posing?

> I may have left out a few, but I hope this helps.

Sure does!  I'll update the list next chance I get.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: Secret Defenders
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 15, 2002 at 09:29:34:
In Reply to: Re: Defenders line-up
posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 14, 2002 at 21:52:16:

>> The list does not include "Secret Defenders."

> Anyone happen to know who they included?

Avatar
Cadaver
Cage
Captain America
Dagger 
Darkhawk
Deadpool
Deathlok
Dr. Strange
Dr. Druid
Drax
Giant-Man
Hulk
Iron Fist
Namorita
Nomad
Northstar
Nova
Punisher
Scarlet Witch
Shado-Woaman aka Sepulcre
Silver Surfer
Sleepwalker
Spider-Man
Spider-Woman(Julia Carpenter)
Thunderstrike
U.S. Agent
War Machine
Wolverine

plus a few issues where Thanos gathered a team to perform a task for him 
(team of: Geatar, Super-Skrull, Nitro, Titanium Man and Rhino); the team 
was eventually rescued by Silver Surfer and Legacy. 

			*	*	*

Re: Secret Defenders
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 17, 2002 at 14:11:17:
In Reply to: Re: Secret Defenders
posted by Arthur Stein on December 15, 2002 at 09:29:34:

> Shado-Woaman aka Sepulcre

Should this read: "Shadow-Woman aka Sepulcher"?

I see a listing for "SHADOWOMAN/JILLIAN WOODS".  Is this the same person?

> plus a few issues where Thanos gathered a team to perform a task for him 
(team of: Geatar, Super-Skrull, Nitro, Titanium Man and Rhino); the team 
was eventually rescued by Silver Surfer and Legacy.

Did this team get a name?  Also, who drew this?  It might actually give me 
a reason to go find SECRET DEFENDERS.  Never thought I'd hear myself say 
that, but I was a big SS3 fan.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: Secret Defenders
Posted by Andy Holcombe on December 17, 2002 at 16:26:52:
In Reply to: Re: Secret Defenders
posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 17, 2002 at 14:11:17:

> Should this read: "Shadow-Woman aka Sepulcher"?

Maybe Shadowoman aka Sepulcre

> Did this team get a name?  Also, who drew this?  It might actually give me 
a reason to go find SECRET DEFENDERS.  Never thought I'd hear myself say that, 
but I was a big SS3 fan.

Tom Grindberg penciled the stories, and Ron Marz wrote them.  This particular 
story ran during issues #13-15.  I think it tied into the Cosmic Powers 
liited series.  Marz and Grindberg were also on #9-12 which consisted of a 
two part Infinity Guantlet epilogue against Nebula and a Starblast crossover.  

			*	*	*

Re: Defenders line-up
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 15, 2002 at 19:07:31:
In Reply to: Re: Defenders line-up
posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 14, 2002 at 21:52:16:

> > The following villains posed as Defenders: Porcupine, Beetle, Whirlwind, 
Blob, Sagittarius II, Batroc, Looter, and a Plantman Simuloid.

> Can you elaborate on what you mean by posing?

In DEF 62-64, Dollar Bill instigated a membership drive for the Defenders, 
much to Nighthawk's dismay.  Many heroes showed up, but a group of villains 
also gathered under the Defenders banner and performed criminal acts in 
their name.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Defenders line-up
Posted by Sean Curtin on December 15, 2002 at 21:26:07:
In Reply to: Re: Defenders line-up
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 15, 2002 at 19:07:31:

> In DEF 62-64, Dollar Bill instigated a membership drive for the Defenders, 
much to Nighthawk's dismay.  Many heroes showed up, but a group of villains 
also gathered under the Defenders banner and performed criminal acts in their 
name.

Boomerang, Electro, Leap-Frog, Melter, Shocker I, Toad, the android Zodiac's 
Sagittarius (II?) and Joe and Pecos of the original Split-Second Squad were 
also members of that "team".  (Technically, the criminal "Defenders" were two 
teams, each one led by a Zodiac android, but both were working together.)

--
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Legion of Defenders
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 17, 2002 at 14:02:06:
In Reply to: Re: Defenders line-up
posted by Sean Curtin on December 15, 2002 at 21:26:07:

> > In DEF 62-64, Dollar Bill instigated a membership drive for the Defenders, 
much to Nighthawk's dismay. Many heroes showed up, but a group of villains 
also gathered under the Defenders banner and performed criminal acts in their 
name.

Porcupine, Beetle, Whirlwind, Blob, Sagittarius II, Batroc, Looter, and a 
Plantman Simuloid.

> Boomerang, Electro, Leap-Frog, Melter, Shocker I, Toad, the android Zodiac's 
Sagittarius (II?) and Joe and Pecos of the original Split-Second Squad were 
also members of that "team". (Technically, the criminal "Defenders" were two 
teams, each one led by a Zodiac android, but both were working together.)

So, would all of the people listed in Paul's original (long) post be 
"Defenders I" while Dollar Bill's team(s) would be "Defenders II & III", with 
the team in the book that became THE ORDER as "Defenders IV"?  If this is the 
case, who were in the Defenders II & III respectively?

And who was the "Split-Second Squad"?
- StAkAr Karnak, a bit confused

			*	*	*

Re: Legion of Defenders
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 17, 2002 at 20:16:30:
In Reply to: Legion of Defenders
posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 17, 2002 at 14:02:06:

Personally, I wouldn't bother with Is, IIs, and IIIs.  Since the Defenders' 
membership was squishy and fluid (there were a "non-team" for a good chunk 
for their existence), I'd consider everyone on the list a Defender, with 
the possible exception of the two teams of villains, who I would lump into 
a Defenders Imposters group roster.

The Order was one incarnation of a portion of the Defenders roster (Dr. 
Strange, Hulk, Sub-Mariner, Silver Surfer).  Another incarnation was the 
Dragon Circle (Valkyrie, Gargoyle, Interloper, Manslaughter, Andromeda, 
Moondragon).  At least that's what I remember off-hand.

Hey, come to think of it, I think I left Andromeda off the Defenders list.  
Given his long association with the team through Dr. Strange, do we consider 
Wong a member?  And how about Papa Hagg in the latest roster?

The Split-Second Squad first appeared in A 77.  Roster included Joe the 
Gorilla, Onionhead, Pecos, Cap'n Scragg, Sweet William, and Pin-Stripe.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Hyborian characters
Posted by dimadick on December 09, 2002 at 11:17:11:

  Recent messages have refeared to the place of the Hyborian characters in 
the Marvel Universe.Though I don't know about any index of appearances for 
main characters like Conan and Sonja there are some for lesser characters 
in the "Appendix to the Marvel Handbook".It contains pages featuring the 
appearances of many obscure Hyborian characters,including Kulan Gath, in 
chronological order.See if you find any of this pages interesting or at 
least useful for your purposes:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/appconan.htm

			*	*	*

Petey's Kid
Posted by Jhaeman on December 09, 2002 at 14:14:06:

I've been reading some semi-recent back issues of Amazing Spider-Man (v.2) 
and have some continuity-related questions large gaps in my collection 
render me unable to answer:

1.  At the end of ASM (v.1) Peter & Mary Jane have a kid.  At the volume 2 
relaunch, the kid is gone.  Did they ever explain what happened?

2.  Because I don't have the Revenge of the Green Goblin mini-series, how 
*did* Norman Osborn return?

3.  Is the German superhero Morlun kills in ASM (v.2) # 30 someone who has 
a history in the Marvel Universe or a character made up expressly to be 
killed?

Thanks!

Jhaeman

Comics That Time Forgot:   www.geocities.com/jhaeman

			*	*	*

Re: Petey's Kid
Posted by Andy Holcombe on December 09, 2002 at 16:59:43:
In Reply to: Petey's Kid
posted by Jhaeman on December 09, 2002 at 14:14:06:

> 1.  At the end of ASM (v.1) Peter & Mary Jane have a kid.  At the volume 2 
relaunch, the kid is gone.  Did they ever explain what happened?

During Revelations, Norman Osborn had an operative (Alison Mongraine) induce 
labor and then an Obsorn-friendly doctor (MJ's doctor was mysteriously 
absent) delivered the baby, gave it to Alison Mongraine, and told MJ that it 
was stillborn.  Osborn then sends Mongraine off with a package that many 
believe to be baby-May.  When Aunt May returned before the reboot, readers 
were teased that Mongraine's "May's alive" comment meant baby-May instead of 
Aunt May.  See the Spider-Girl series for the further adventures of baby-May.

> 2.  Because I don't have the Revenge of the Green Goblin mini-series, how 
*did* Norman Osborn return?

The goblin formula that drove him insane and increased his strength also gave 
him a healing factor.  See Spider-Man: The Osborn Journal as well as the 
Revelations arc that ended the Clone Saga.

			*	*	*

Re: Petey's Kid
Posted by shadz on December 09, 2002 at 18:57:46:
In Reply to: Petey's Kid 
posted by Jhaeman on December 09, 2002 at 14:14:06:

> 3.  Is the German superhero Morlun kills in ASM (v.2) # 30 someone who has 
a history in the Marvel Universe or a character made up expressly to be 
killed?

The character is Blitzkrieg, who first appeared in "Contest of Champions", I 
think.  I may be wrong...

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Re: Petey's Kid
Posted by Don Campbell on December 12, 2002 at 15:38:06:
In Reply to: Re: Petey's Kid
posted by shadz on December 09, 2002 at 18:57:46:

> > 3.  Is the German superhero Morlun kills in ASM (v.2) # 30 someone who 
has a history in the Marvel Universe or a character made up expressly to be 
killed?

> The character is Blitzkrieg, who first appeared in "Contest of Champions", 
I think.  I may be wrong...

> ShadZ

Sorry but the German superhuman Morlun killed could NOT have been Blitzkreig 
because he (renamed Blitzkreiger) was killed years ago in CA 442 by the hero-
killing Zietgeist. His death was avenged in that same issue by Vormund 
(formerly known as Hauptmann Deutschland). Of course, if JMS didn't know that 
Blitzkreig was dead, he could have used him by mistake.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: Petey's Kid
Posted by ShadZ on December 13, 2002 at 01:42:51:
In Reply to: Re: Petey's Kid
posted by Don Campbell on December 12, 2002 at 15:38:06:

Oops!  My bad.

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Hate-Monger V as Animus, 'Nam as Canon, Dragon's Claws,  Alf as Canon
Posted by John Mc Donagh on December 10, 2002 at 00:08:14:

     Just something to chip in about listing Animus as Hate-Monger V: the 
listing for the 1940's Red Guardians states see Red Skull II, even though 
the idea that the Red Skull II and the 1940's Red Guardian are the same 
person is actually even more tenous than the idea of Animus as Hate-Monger V.

'Nam as canon.....hmmm...well, in one issue of the Nam they were shown reading 
Thor, Iron Man, and Captain America comics! Now, yes, somewhat fictionalized 
versions of these charachters do exist in the Earth-616 universe, but the 
proble is the sliding timescale; since by the sliding timescale convention, 
the modern era only goes back less than sixteen years, that means that no one 
could have been reading about Iron Man during the Vietnam War.

Of course, Ice, one of the Nam soldiers was seen in issues of Punisher War 
Zone, and there was even a Punisher one-shot that was actually a compilation 
of the stories intended for the last issues of the Nam. Then again, by way 
of analogy, Daredevil Man Without Fear has been generally relegated to non-
continuity, even though you can dredge up a few references to it in some 
incontrovertibly in-canon books (such as the Daredevil regular series, 
Daredevil:Deadpool Annual, and even Amazing Spider-Man#-1).  

Dragon's Claws...yup, Death's Head actually appeared in #5, and the Claws 
also appeared in Death's Head#2. An interesting wrinkle is that Dragon's Claws 
took place in the Doctor Who universe!

Let me explain this bold statement. Death's Head was sent to Dragon's Claws 
world by the Doctor (from Doctor Who). After that, he had no access to time 
or dimensional travel technology. In the Death's Head regular series, Death's 
Head encountered Keepsake, a salvage expert, who had no time or dimensional 
travel technology....and encountered the Doctor Who in Doctor Who Magazine 
#140. In Death's Head#8, Death's Head met Josiah W. Dogbolter.....introduced 
in Doctor Who Magazine circa the 88th issue. Dogbolter had only just 
developed time-travel technology, so he must have been a native to Dragon's 
Claws world. Ergo, Dragon's Claws lay in the future of the Doctor Who 
universe. This may not affect your decision to post them in the site, but 
you may wish to create a sub-page for Doctor Who charachters.....you could 
include the Special Executive.

Alf as canon....actually, in an issue of Infinity Gauntlet, people were shown 
watching Alf on TV! Anyone have anything else to say on this? 

			*	*	*

Re: Alf as Canon
Posted by DCW3 on December 11, 2002 at 14:13:33:
In Reply to: Hate-Monger V as Animus, 'Nam as Canon, Dragon's Claws,  Alf as 
Canon
posted by John Mc Donagh on December 10, 2002 at 00:08:14:

> Alf as canon....actually, in an issue of Infinity Gauntlet, people were 
shown watching Alf on TV! Anyone have anything else to say on this?

Mitchell Brown has a summary of ALF Annual #1 (the issue with the High 
Evolutionary) at the Evolutionary War Page on his Unofficial Comics Crossover 
Index 
http://members.tripod.com/~MitchellBrown/xover/marvel_evolutionarywar.html):

"The comic's first (and only) annual contained a short story in which the 
High Evolutionary is astonished to find a Melmackian living on Earth, since 
he believed their planet's destruction had wiped them all out. It has nothing 
to do with the main storyline, but it's good for a laugh."

If that's all there is to it, it doesn't sound like that issue would give 
cause to declare the series non-canon, but you'd obviously have to look at 
the series as a whole.

As for people watching ALF on TV during Infinity Gauntlet...maybe in the MU, 
after his series ended, the populace learned of ALF's existence and he 
became a TV star. Stranger things...

			*	*	*

Re: Alf as Canon
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 11, 2002 at 18:22:23:
In Reply to: Re: Alf as Canon
posted by DCW3 on December 11, 2002 at 14:13:33:

> Alf as canon....actually, in an issue of Infinity Gauntlet, people were 
shown watching Alf on TV! Anyone have anything else to say on this?

Drax the Destroyer was a big ALF fan.  He might have watched it in SILVER 
SURFER.  I'm not sure about INFINITY GAUNTLET, but he definitely watched it 
in WARLOCK AND THE INFINITY WATCH.

Strangely enough, the Drax of the Guardians of the Galaxy's timeline was 
also big on the ALF TV show, although, since the timelines parted ways in 
1980 and ALF premiered around 1986, this'd've been an alternate reality 
version of the show, complete with a skin cancer survivors engaged in 
cybernetic warfare.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

What If World charachters who have met Earth-616 charachters, Watcher "talking 
to the camera"
Posted by John McDonagh on December 10, 2002 at 14:43:52:

As some of you know, the What If stories for the most part take in other 
parts of the multiverse. Thus, it remains a possibility that Earth-616 
charachters can travel to them or that charachters from What If worlds can 
travel to Earth-616. I have found a few occaisons of either or both happening.

Note: the Living Tribunal represents a multiversal singularity, as does 
possibly the Phoenix-Force (though not Rachel Summers, as we have seen her 
killed too many times in alternate realities). Galactus and Set were at times 
believed to represent multiversal singularities, but in fact do not. 

Quasar#6: the Earth-616 Living Laser traveled through the Watcher's portal 
to the world where the new X-Men died on their first mission.

Quasar#30: Quasar visited many What If worlds as part of a mission for the 
Watcher.

What If II#39: The Watcher talked with the Fantastic Four from What If I#36, 
Reed Richards Rocket Group. 

Spider-Girl: Spider-Girl, who debuted in What If II#105, met the Earth-616 
Spider-Man in Spider-Girl#10-11.

Avengers Forever#4-5: Appearances of charachters from What If I#9, the 1950's 
Avengers.

Avengers Forever#11-12: A counterpart of Hank Pym as Giant-Man from What If 
I#3 appeared in Avengers Forever#11, and charachters from What If? II#114 
such as Mustang and so forth (the children from the reality where they got 
stranded on Battleworld) appeared in Avengers Forever#11-12. 

Fantastic Four III#58: The Earth-616 Reed Richards had a conference call 
with the Reed Richards from What If I#36. 

Oh, a quick note; while the Uatu who narrates What If can be presumed to be 
the Earth-616 Uatu (vis a vis his "talking to the camera"...the stories he 
narrates "to the camera" in Tales of the Watcher in TALES OF SUSPENSE are 
considered in continuity, what with the Sneepers getting an entry in Alien 
Races...) with one exception. 

In What If II#25 (What if Set came to Earth, heroes lost Atlantis Attacks), 
the Watcher who narrates that story mentions that the Silver Surfer of the 
main story stopped by before leaving Earth's solar system and gave him the 
Eye of Agamotto. Unless that Silver Surfer also crossed dimensions, I will 
presume that the Watcher narrating that issue was the Watcher native to 
Earth-Set-Came-To-Earth.   

			*	*	*

INFINITY II...INTERLOPER...INVISIBLE WOMAN
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 10, 2002 at 17:30:30:

new entries marked **

INFINITY II
DAMCON3 4
**Q 37
WIW 9

INTERLOPER
DEF 152
**M/CP 37/3
ST2 5/2
Between DEF 152 and ST2 6 the Interloper was in a 'state between life and 
death;the appearance of his sand statue body in M/CP 37/3 seems as valid 
as his 'appearence' in ST2 5/2

INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUE STORM RICHARDS
FF 14
**ST 109
ST 110
..  ..  ..  .. 
>A@ 12
**M/TALES 198/2
FF 251
..  ..  ..  .. 
PP 48
**Q 3 (Pg 6/5 In civvies, leaving Four Freedoms Plaza with Reed. )
FF 326
A 301

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent 
piece of information engineering! 

			*	*	*

The original Black Widow
Posted by Dimadick on December 11, 2002 at 08:10:18:

  Up till now the only appearance of Black Widow I/Claire Voyant featured 
in the project is the one in "Marvels #1".Are her previous appearances 
considered non-canon?

  If they are indeed cannon it shouldn't be a problem to add them to the 
project since they are few.This page lists and provides info to the character:

http://www.geocities.com/jjnevins/widow.html

Another look at the character can be found here.Looking at her influence 
rather than her place in Marvel:

http://www.toonopedia.com/blwidow1.htm

			*	*	*

X-Men Unlimited #39
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 12, 2002 at 21:34:27:

It looks like we'll need to add the following appearances in XU 39/3 to the 
MCP:

Storm in XU 39/3 between UX 173 and UX 174
Yukio in UX 39/3 between UX 173 and KP&W 3

XU 39/2 occurs in current continuity, and I'll add it to the calendar of 
recent comics.

My question concerns XU 39/1, which is "a tale from Storm's past."  She 
encounters Magneto, with whom she's had many battles, while garbed in the 
costume she wore from GSX 1 through UX 173.  So, exactly where do we place 
this story?  Sometime after MGN 5 (until now her chronologically last 
encounter with Magneto before changing her look) and before UX 172?  If this 
sounds okay, can we pigeon-hole this story further?

Paul Bourcier

			*	*	*

Ignore That X-Men Unlimited #39 post!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 12, 2002 at 21:53:00:

Gee, it would help if I read previous posts...  Andy, Jeph, and Paul make 
good points about placement, although I might have a comment after looking 
closely at the posts...

Paul B. (duh)

			*	*	*

DD2 Analysis part 3, the conclusion!!!
Posted by Kevin  on December 13, 2002 at 12:18:24:

DD2 Analysis part 3, the conclusion!

By the way, if you missed Part 2 Paul, it's below all the talk about "what 
Marvel titles are non canon?"  Now that this is finished, I can take a 
breather. Let me know folks, if you have any questions, or point out any 
corrections.

 DD2 Issue 26-37.

Written by Brian Michael Bendis Drawn by Alex Maleev

This is the start of a 12 part storyline.  It actually can be divided into 
two halfs:  the 1st half deals with the Kingpins apparent demise and the 
second half deals with the press getting info that Matt Murdock is Daredevil.  

This storyline makes good usage of time references; in fact, they are crucial 
to the story. The story jumps around, (like Pulp Fiction, the Tarintino film) 
and asks you to follow different plotlines on different days.  As such, 
instead of the usual synopsis, Ive been able to come up with a timeline, 
complete with dates.   I use this timeline all because of one date:  April 
18, 2002.  This is the date on the newspaper from issue #32 seen inside the 
issue, which reveals to the world that DD is Matt Murdock.  Using this one 
date, Ive been able to come up with dates for all other dates in the 
storyline, (theyre usually referred to as one week ago, or yesterday).

Ill start off with this timeline/plot synopsis, then Ill do what references 
I can for the individual issues, (the main references are, of course, the 
time frames mentioned, but their are a few others).

Synopsis/Timeline:  There are two long distant flashbacks, both of which may 
be topical:

20 years:  A young Richard Fisk and Sammy Silke see for the first time what 
their fathers do for a living:  The see their dads killing someone.  They 
learn there fathers are mobsters.  (If you guys have seen that movie Road 
to Perdition, its very much like that scene where Tom Hanks kid discovers 
his dads a mobster).

12 years ago: In this quick flashback, we see Electra and Matt lying in bed 
together.  Matt comments that he wishes they would never leave this room, 
and stay like this forever.

I wonder:  Matt was dating Electra before he became Daredevil, and its been 
more than 10 years since FF #1, so does this make the reference of 12 years 
topical?

Now starts the current storyline, complete with Flashbacks:

3 months ago, (mid January):  A newcomer to the Kingpins organization: Sammy 
Silke, joins the group.  He comes from Chicago, where his father is a leader 
of the Chicago mob.  Apparently, Mr. Silkes in exile cause of a screw up 
that messed up some of his dads business in Chicago.  The night he joins the 
Kingpins crew, he meets them in a bar.  He also meets Richard Fisk, the 
Kingpins son, who he use to hang out with as a kid.  Richard is sulking in 
a corner, nursing a beer, and refuses to talk to Silke.  

A short time later, the Kingpin, (who is blind here) inducts Mr. Silke into 
his organization personally.  Kingpin says he and Mr. Silkes dad go way back, 
and hes happy to accept Mr. Silke into his group.  Mr. Silke delivers a 
message from his father, asking that the Kingpin have someone kill a lawyer 
thats been causing trouble for Mr. Silkes business.  It turns out that 
lawyer is Matt Murdock, who is suing a corporation for defective drug 
medication, which has poisoned several kids, (Matts suing on behalf of the 
families affected).  Mr. Silkes dad owns a portion of the companies profits, 
so since the case is tilting in Matts favor, Mr. Silkes dad wants him 
rubbed out.  Kingpin turns down his request.  Mr. Silke gets a little 
bewildered at Kingpins refusal, to which Kingpin turns around and chews 
him out for Mr. Silkes backtalk.

We the audience know why Kingpin doesnt send an assasin to kill Murdock: 
because he wants Murdock destroyed on his own terms, not for the needs of 
a rival Mob Boss based out in Chicago.

2 months ago, (mid February):  Mr. Silke and the rest of Kingpins inner 
circle are playing poker again.  Mr. Silke complains that he cant figure 
out why Kingpin refused his request to kill Matt Murdock.  The rest of the 
crew seems hesitant to bring up the subject.  Richard Fisk, (who apparently 
still sits in the corner to himself and drinks) suddenly asks Silke to come 
and talk with him.  Richard explains to Mr. Silke that Matt Murdock is 
Daredevil.  It was supposed to be Kingpins own little secret, but Richard 
found out threw rummaging around his dads file, (or at least thats what 
the story hints).  Richards told all the rest of the crew, so they all 
know about Kingpins personal beef with Murdock. 

Silke is stunned.  So why doesnt he just waste this Murdock.  The guys 
been a pain in his butt for year.  But theyre all silent.  Richard whispers 
to him that hes tried to rally them before, tried to lead, but he says 
they wont listen to me.  This makes sense.  Richard Fisk has adopted in 
the past the costumed identity of The Rose and has tried to usurp 
Kingpins organization before.  So Richard is planting now the seed of 
rebellion in Silkes head.

1 month ago, (mid March):  Mr. Silke holds a secret meeting in Kingpins 
garage lot.  He convinces the others to help him kill the Kingpin, and that 
they would divide up the spoils of his empire among themselves.  Richard 
Fisk is there, rallying them to get behind Silkes idea.

They decide the best way to go about this is to make a bold proclomation, 
showing Kingpins no longer in control of his organization.  Everyone in 
New York in the underworld knows that Matt Murdock is not to be touched, 
by order of the Kingpin.  Well, the conspirators figure:  What better way 
to let everyone know that Kingpins days are through then by killing 
Murdock, and showing Fisk has no control over his own Empire.

A short time later, we see Richard Fisk and Sammy Silke at a contact 
person store, informing him that Mr. Fisk wants the word put out, for a 
half a million dollar hit on Matt Murdocks head.  This contact person 
takes their word as if its the Kingpins word itself, and puts the news 
out to the underworld.

1 week ago, (April 6th):  This scene is in issue #26, the first issue of 
the story arc.  The case against that corporation, (referenced in the 
flashback to 3 months ago), ends on this date.  The jury rules in Murdocks 
favor, awarding his clients the hugest amount of liability money in the 
history of New York, (this is supposed to be like the lawsuits against the 
Tobacco companies in real life, yet here, the product seems to be from 
description, a legal form of Extacy, which this corporation was putting out 
on the street).

On his way out the courthouse, Matt and Foggy are surrounded by reporters, 
who are congradulating him on his success.  Then, a man in a trench coat 
appears, and blows himself up.  This is Nitro, the Human Bomb, a B Grade 
villian who runs away from the scene after detonating.  Matt checks on 
Foggy, who is wounded, then dons his costume and chases after Nitro.  He 
catches up to Nitro and beats the tar out of him.  A police cruiser pulls 
up and one of the officers, (a rookie) accidently fires at DD. DD dodges 
and the bullet hits Nitro.  DD flees the scene.

A short time later:  We see Matt checking on Foggy in the hospital.  Its 
probably later that day, or possibly the next.  They discuss the 
assassination, and figure out that someone has specifically targetted Matt 
Murdock.  Their first suspect is the Kingpin.

Matt pays a visit to the Kingpin in his parking garage a short time later.  
Kingpin says he knows nothing of the assassination attempt.  Daredevil can 
tell hes telling the truth.  Mr. Silke is there, and he makes a quip about 
DD wearing his pajamas during the daytime.  DD smacks him silly and leaves.

A short time later:  We see Matt return to his office.  He finds on his 
desk a note from Electra. The note warns him that there is a half a million 
dollar bounty on his head. She writes that she has no idea who put up the 
bounty, but she warns Matt to stay alive.  He stands next to the window 
that she must have gone out.  Suddenly, he feels a red dot on his forehead.  
He ducks.  Outside, we see the assassin known as Shotgun  aiming a sniper 
rifle at the window.  A few seconds later, DD appears and beats the tar out 
of Shotgun. DD then spots the villian Boomerang on a nearby rooftop.  
Apparently Boomerang was making his way over here to have a crack at the 
prize money as well.  DD beats the snot out of him as well, and turns him 
into the police.  In the crowd nearby, we see Bullseye watching DD with an 
evil grin.  He disapears into the crowd.

2 days ago, (April 11th):  We see DD beating up some hoods in a bar, 
demanding who put the bounty on Murdocks head.  One of them tells  him its 
the Kingpin.  DD pays another visit to the Kingpin, sneaking into his 
private chambers.  He tells Kingpin hes learned that the price on Murdocks 
head was issued from here.  Kingpin says thats impossible...but suddenly 
realises that one of his men might have acted without his authority.  DD 
realises this too, and comments looks like Im not the only one who needs 
to watch his back or something like that.

Today, (April 13):  This is the Today seen in issue 26, the opening scene 
of this storyline.  Mr. Silke asks for a conference with the Kingpin.  Mr. 
Silke chews him out, then Kingpins men pull out daggers and stab him over 
and over, ala Julius Ceasar style.  

The next day, (April 14):  Ben Urick is working at the Bugle when he gets 
word that the Kingpin is dead.  The news passes like wild fire through the 
ranks of the media.

Vanessa Fisk, the Kingpins wife, is in her foreign resort in the Swiss 
Alps, when she hears about her husbands death, and immediately hops on 
a plane back to America.  I believe shes been seperated from her husband 
for quite some time, but now rushs to his aid.

DD goes to Kingpins office, finds a pool of blood on the floor, but the 
place has been cleared out, like no one ever worked there.

DD and Ben Urick meet outside the Daily Bugle.  The discuss the possibility 
that the Kingpin might be dead.

The next day, (April 15):  Vanessa Fisk arrives in New York. Shes taken by 
a loyal Kingpin attendant, (a Mr. Dini, who I believe is Fisks accountant) 
to Kingpins personal Crime Doctor.  Kingpin is shown in a coma.  Apparently 
Mr. Dini found Kingpin after Mr. Silke and company left him for dead.  
Kingpin was barely alive, and now is in critical condition in a coma.  
Vanessa asks Mr. Dini whos behind this attack.  She soon realizes that her 
own son Richard was a part of this attack.

Once Vanessa figures out whos behind this, she starts to take steps to get 
revenge. She starts by killing the man who put the word out for a hit on 
Matt Murdock.  

That day, Daredevil and Ben Urick discuss who could be behind this attack 
on the Kingpin.  They conclude some of Kingpins own men were involved.  
Daredevil investigates the place where a hit was put on on Matts life, 
and finds the guy who runs the joint dead.  He smells Vanessa Fisks 
lingering scent.

The next day, (April 16):  Sammy Silke and the gang celebrate victory.  
Richard Fisk is shown all of a sudden to be remorseful, but hes still glad 
the Kingpins gone.  Hes getting drunk, while the others are living it up.

Later that day, Richard Fisk heads home, only to find his mother Vanessa 
waiting for him.  She tells him she wishes she never gave birth to him, and 
that hes been nothing but a dissapointment.  She kills him with one shot 
to the head, and then leaves. Outside, she orders Mr. Dini to start a plan 
shes apparently had put together over the last day or so:  we see over the 
next few pages: over the next few hours, loyal Kingpin followers kill 
everyone involved in the assassination attempt.  

Mr. Silke, for his part, is the last one they try to kill.  Hes heading 
back to his apartment with a prostitue on his arm, when he discovers some 
assassins on the inside.  He narrowly avoids their bullets, (the prostitute 
ends up killed though), and jumps out a window and down an alley.  

Vanessa Fisk has her husband moved out of the country by plane sometime 
this night.

Later that night, we see Mr. Silke calling up his dad in Chicago, asking 
to be bailed out.  His father is apparently appalled that Mr. Silke had 
the gall to try to kill the Kingpin, and basically tells him to not come 
home to Chicago.  Mr. Silkes a dead man walking, and his father wants 
nothing to do with him.

A short time later that night, we see Mr. Silke turning himself into the 
FBI, (I suppose its possible he turned himself into the police, but the 
FBI has him when we next see Mr. Silke).  He asks for protection.  The FBI 
laugh at him, saying if he wants protection, he has to rat out his dad, 
the crimeboss in Chicago.  He refuses, and they start to take him to jail, 
but he knows hell be killed in prison, so he tries something else:  he 
tells the FBI that he knows who Daredevil is.

The next day, (April 17):

The story cuts to later that night at 3:00 am.  The two FBI agents who 
questioned Mr. Silke have called in their superior officer, who they discuss 
all the recent events with.  There is a whole issue dedicated to this 
meeting, where the FBI go over the Kingpin events, and figure out that 
Vanessa Fisk must be running things right now.  They also reveal that 
theyve just learned that earlier that night, Vanessa had the Kingpin moved 
out of the country.  

They then tell their boss that theyve taken what Silke told them and have 
concluded that there is a very strong chance that Daredevil is Matt Murdock, 
the blind guy.  They also point out that theyve learned SHIELD has files on 
Matt Murdock that theyre not sharing with the FBI.  The FBI boss tells the 
two agents to sit on the information, and to not discuss it with anyone else.  
Apparently the boss thinks DDs okay in his book, and just doesnt want 
anything else to be done about it.  He tells them to throw the book at Mr. 
Silke, unless he sells out his dad.

The story cuts to later, around 7 am that morning.  We see one of those two 
FBI agents heading home, where we see him having a fight with his girlfriend/
possibly wife.  She has to head to work, and he just got in.  Shes bitter, 
and also complains about their lack of money.  She walks off in a huff, 
saying she cant be late for work because if she loses this job, they wont 
be able to pay their bills.

Later that day, after I suspect the FBI agent has slept, we see him casing 
Murdocks lawfirm.  He looks up and sees the Black Widow jumping down on 
Matts roof.  The Black Widow apparently looks into Matts window, sees he 
is gone, and jumps away.  The FBI agent goes back to the office and does 
some research into DD and Black Widows relationship.  He becomes more 
convinced that DD is indeed Matt Murdock.

He then makes a choice. He calls up the Daily Globe, the other prominent 
New York Newspaper rivaling the Daily Bugle.  He offers info in exchange 
for money, (to help him and his girlfriend).

The Next Day, (April 18th, 2002):  The story cuts to the next day, when we 
see Foggy picking up his morning paper at the newspaper stand. His jaw drops, 
and he runs away.  We see the headline:  Globe Exclusive:  Pulp Hero of 
Hells Kitchen is Blind Lawyer  complete with pics of DD and Matt Murdock.

The news spreads like wildfire.  Matt wakes up late that morning, (probably 
out patroling last night). He wakes up to find reporters all over his front 
doorstep.  Foggy rushes in, and they spend the better part of the day 
wondering how this happened.  Foggy warns Matt that its probably time to 
hang up the costume.  If he keeps the costume up forever, they can deny, 
deny, deny that hes Daredevil, and he wont go to jail.  He also warns 
that people keep dying in Matts life because he keeps putting on that 
costume, Karen included!

Meanwhile, J. Jonah Jameson is having a press meeting with his reporters 
over at the Daily Bugle.  Hes furious that another newspaper beat him to 
this story.  He wants all his staff on this story now, and he wants every 
single piece of Murdocks life turned upside down, to confirm that hes DD.  
Ben Urick, who had been sitting peacefully at the meeting, suddenly bursts 
out Hes not Daredevil!  Peter Parker barges into the room at that exact 
moment, and says the exact same thing.

Jameson asks How do you know. Urick says Cause I know who DD is, but Im 
not going to tell you  and Parker echoes that sentiment.  Jameson demands 
to know, but Ben says hes not going to let Jameson slander whoevers behind 
the mask, saying that these heroes do the public good, and the least we can 
do is leave them alone.  Jameson tells them both to get out, (and basically 
fires Urick, he cant fire Parker though, hes a freelance agent).

Matt, meanwhile, is still reeling from all this, and he doesnt heed Foggys 
advice, and puts on the costume and leaves through the roof that night.  He 
jumps around the roofs, spots a muggin taking place, and catches the crook.  
A nearby witness asks DD what color the shirt hes wearing is.  DD rushes 
off, and the civilians nearby take note he didnt answer.  So maybe he is 
blind they wonder.

Matt heads back towards his office, only to find it under assault now from 
Mr. Hyde.  Mr. Hyde was represented in court by Murdock a few years back, 
and now Mr. Hyde wants revenge.  Spiderman shows up to lend a hand, and 
together, him and DD beat the tar out of Mr. Hyde. Then the two superheros 
rush off into the night.

26 days later, (May 14th):  The story cuts to show Matt and Foggy talking 
privately in their office with Ben Urick.  Matt says he just got back from 
Japan.  Apparently hes been in hiding for a month, doing a great deal of 
soul searching.  He tells Ben that their relationship is going to have to 
end now, and hints that Ben must never speak to him as a confident of DD 
again, and warns its for the good of everyone  He says hes holding a press 
conference tomorrow.

The  Next Day, (May 15):  Matt holds his press conference.  He gives a 
speech, and says that he IS NOT DAREDEVIL.  He says he is going to sue 
the Daily Globe, and its publisher, a Mr. Rosenthal, for millions of 
dollars in damages for slander and emotional and reputation damage.

3 Weeks later, (June 5, or early June):  If we takes the 3 weeks later 
caption to be percise, then its June 5th.  But it could be anyday in early 
June.

The Black Widow pays a visit to Matt at his law office. Matt has bodyguards 
outside his office, including Luke Cage, and that woman from Alias.  She 
enters Matts office to find him on the phone saying to someone  of the 
Press I dont know why the Globe would make up such a story.  Widow urges 
Matt to go put his costume on and let them jump around on some roofs.  Matt 
sternly denies her, and shows her the door.  Widow goes and talks to Foggy, 
and he tells her to leave him alone.  She warns Foggy that hes in denial, 
and then we see her placing a personal phone call, using a SHIELD priority 
code.  Shes got an idea of how to bread Matt out of his funk.

That night, Matt goes and has a private dinner with Vanessa Fisk, in the Fisk 
Towers.  Vanessa says shes leaving America, and that shes sold Fisk Towers 
to Donald Trump.  She says that the Kingpin is still in a coma, and gives 
Matt a gift:  a card with the name of the FBI agent who sold his identity to 
the newspaper.  Shes apparently discovered this through her underworld 
contacts.  Matt, before he leaves, offers his condolenses on the death of 
her son Richard.  She remains emotionless.  I bet Matt figured out what 
happened to Richard Fisk.

Later that night, when he gets home, he senses a familiar presence on the 
roof. He climbs up to find Electra there.  She says she got an urgent phone 
call from a SHIELD agent warning Matt was in danger.  She quickly realizes 
shes been duped.  Matt mumbles that he has everything under control, but 
before Electra leaves, he mumbles that he wishes he and Electra never left 
that room they shared 12 years ago, (and we see a flashback to that scene).  
Electras hurt doesnt skip a beat, and she leaves.  Matt kicks himself for 
being sentimental.

The Next Day, (June 6th):  Mr. Rosenthal, the publisher of the Daily Globe, 
sends a lawyer over to chat with Foggy and Matt.  The lawyer chews Matt out, 
saying theyre going to countersue Matt and Foggy for all their worth, and 
prove that Matt is DD.  Foggy kicks the lawyer out of the office. Matt just 
stares at the card that Vanessa Fisk gave him.

That night, DD pays a visit to the window of the FBI agent who sold him out.  
Alls he does is stand outside the window, and the FBI agent looks up and 
sees him, pulls his gun trembling with fear.  He mutters to himself How do 
you know? over and over...

The Next day, (June 7th), or possibly a few days later:  The time is 
unspecified for once.  Matt and Foggy are at the Daily Globes offices, 
conducting a meeting with Mr. Rosenthal, (who is some sort of Ted Turner-
esque media mogul).  Mr. Rosenthal has a new lawyer there, saying that 
theyve let the other one go, (I suspect for being to harsh yesterday, yet 
now we see why):  Mr. Rosenthal says that his lawyers are saying there is 
no way the case can go forward now, (thats because the FBI source wont 
back up his claim now that hes scared into hiding). Rosenthals lawyer 
offers a settlement of 10 million dollars.  Murdock asks for 200 million 
and a front page apology.  They eventually negotiate to settle for 75 
million and a small snipet on the lowerfront page apology.  Murdock gets 
up with a smile to leave the office, and taps his cane on the ground like 
a blind man would.  Right before he exits the door, Mr. Rosenthal says 
Deals off, in a sudden burst of anger.  Murdock turns back to him asking 
why?  Rosenthal says Cause you knew exactly what money figure Id agree 
on.  Like you sensed where Id draw the line.  Furthermore, I know for a 
fact your Daredevil, that tapping the cane cant fool me.  And if theres 
one thing I dont like, its being called a liar.  I may lose this trial, 
but Im going to give it my all, and by God Im going to prove youre 
Daredevil.  Thats what he basically says.  The story closes with us the 
audience knowing that the Trial of the Century is coming soon.

DD2 #26

Appearances:  In the Today segment:  Kingpin, Mr. Silke. In the 1 week ago 
segment:  DD, Foggy, Nitro

References:  Published in Oct. 2001.  Also published this month:  ASM #35, 
(its one month behind schedule at this point), PP:SM 36, Avengers 47, Iron 
Man 47, Hulk 33, FF3 48, CA3 48, Thunderbolts 57, Thor 42, UXM 399, Xmen 119. 

Other references:  Green trees seen.  In the one week ago segment, Nitro 
tries to assassinate Matt Murdock.  Murdock had just completed a trial which 
looks to have taken months.  It has indeed taken more than 3 months, (Id 
bet 6), judging by a comment made by Mr. Silke in a flashback sequence in 
issue #29.  In the Today segment, we see the Kingpin killed.

DD2 #27

Appearances:  Today:  Mr. Silke, Kingpin 1 week ago:  DD, Foggy, Rosalind 
Sharpe, (who looks very out of character, but its her) Three months ago: 
Mr. Silke, Richard Fisk Today: (a short time later):  Ben Urick, Robbie 
Robertson

References:  Its raining outside the Daily Bugle in the Ben Urich segment.  
Ben is on the phone, saying Hi, this is Ben Urick with the Daily Bugle, 
and Im doing a story about the Island of Geno- hello?  Lord, whatever 
happened to no comment?  He then gets a phone call about the Kingpins 
apparent demise, so word has hit the street about the Kingpin.  I wonder 
what was happening with Genosha for  Ben to do a story on it?

DD2 #28

Appearances:  DD, Electra, (BTS), Shotgun, Boomerang, Bullseye.

References:  Electra leaves a note in Murdocks office, warning theres a 
bounty on his head.  This is the Silent Nuff said issue.

DD2 #29

Appearances: Today: Vanessa Fisk, Kingpin, (in a coma) 3 months ago: Mr. 
Silke, Kingpin, (hes blind) 2 days ago:  Daredevil, Kingpin 2 months ago: 
Mr. Silke, Richard Fisk

References:  Vanessa Fisk is in the Swiss Alps at start of story.  In the 
3 months ago segment, Mr. Silke asks Kingpin to whack Murdock because of a 
trial Murdocks winning grounds in.  

DD2 #30

Appearances:  Today:  Daredevil, Ben Urick 3 hours ago: DD, shown at Fisks 
office, finds fresh blood on the floor. 2 months ago:  Mr. Silke, Richard 
Fisk, Kingpin 20 years ago: Richard Fisk, Mr. Silke, Mr. Silkes dad, 
Kingpin 1 month ago: Mr. Silke, Richard Fisk

References:  1 month ago:  Mr. Silke starts plotting to kill the Kingpin.  
He puts a bounty out on Matt Murdocks head.

DD2 #31

Appearances:  Today:  (By the way, these Todays are progressively moving 
forward, so that time has passed, sometimes days have passed, since last 
Today segment):  Mr. Silke, Richard Fisk. Yesterday:  DD, Ben Urick Today:  
Vanessa Fisk, Richard Fisk (dies), Mr. Silke

References:  Richard Fisk dies in this issue.  

DD2 #32

Appearances:  nobody special.

References:  This issue starts at 3:11 in the morning after Vanessa Fisk 
has killed all the conspirators against her husband.  The action takes place 
inside the FBIs building as they go over the facts, and conclude that more 
than likely, DD is Matt Murdock.  Vanessa has the Kingping moved out of the 
U.S. This very night.

At end of issue, Foggy is picking up a newspaper, which reads: April 18th, 
2002: Globe Exclusive:  Pulp Hero of Hells Kitchen is Blind Lawyer.

DD2 #33

Appearances:  Today: DD, Foggy Two Days ago:  Cuts back to where the FBI 
meeting ended, as seen last issue. Black Widow shown jumping onto Matts 
roof.

References:  none, other than the time frames listed...and its a sunny 
day...

DD2 #34

Appearances:  Today:  Robbie Robertson, Ben Urick, J. Jonah Jameson, Peter 
Parker, DD, Foggy, Electra.

References:  That night, after the morning where Matts identity is revealed 
to the Press, its raining outside.  Electras shown in one panel reading a 
copy of the paper with DD on cover, while we see Big Ben in the background, 
(shes in London).

DD2 #35

Appearances:  Today:  DD, Foggy, Spiderman, Mr. Hyde. 26 days later:  DD, 
Foggy, Ben Urick The next day after that:  DD, Foggy, Ben Urick, Peter 
Parker

References:  On the 26 days later segment, Matt tells Ben he just got back 
from Japan.

DD2 #36

Appearances:  Today: DD, Foggy, Ben Urick 3 weeks later, (happens all on one 
day):  DD, Foggy, Black Widow, Luke Cage, Vanessa Fisk, Electra

References:  Starts off where we left off last issue: Matts press conference 
is underway.  Then cuts to 3 weeks later.

Vanessa Fisk says shes sold Fisk Towers to Donald Trump. Full Moon seen on 
the night Matt meets Electra.

DD2 #37

Appearances:  Electra, DD 12 years ago:  Electra, DD Next Day:  Foggy, Matt. 
That Night:  DD Next Day (actually, could be a few days later): Matt, Foggy.

References:  In the flashback, DD and Electra are resting in a bed together.

The story ends with the Daily Globes publisher deciding to go ahead with 
the lawsuit to prove that Murdock is indeed Daredevil.  Thats how the story 
ends.

Heres a question for you all:  Captain America revealed his identity 7 
months after 9/11, on Easter.  Easters in April, right?  So Matt Murdocks 
identity was revealed on April 18th...so who got exposed first?

Furthermore, in PP:SM2 #41, Matt Murdock makes a cameo appearance.  Peter 
talks to him on the phone, and Matt warns him this is a non secure line, 
but Peter says its a matter of life or death.  I wonder if this scene 
happens after Matts identity has been revealed.  Anybody wanna take a guess 
at placement?

			*	*	*

Re: DD2 Analysis part 3, the conclusion!!!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 13, 2002 at 21:34:35:
In Reply to: DD2 Analysis part 3, the conclusion!!!
posted by Kevin  on December 13, 2002 at 12:18:24:

Wow, Kevin!  It's going to take me a while to pour over your extensive notes 
in your part 2 and 3 postings, but this should help tremendously.  I'll try 
to make sense of these events within the larger context of Marvel chronology 
and calendaring.  But first, something that would really be helpful...could 
you headline each segment of your chronological narrative with a citation to 
issue number, flashback number, page/panel ranges?  I tried doing this 
myself, but got confused along the way.  I realize this means more work, but 
this way I can place citations on the calendar.

Thanks so much.

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: DD2 Analysis part 3, the conclusion!!!
Posted by Kevin   on December 16, 2002 at 09:00:12:
In Reply to: Re: DD2 Analysis part 3, the conclusion!!!
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 13, 2002 at 21:34:35:

OK, I'll see what I can do.  Shouldn't be to difficult for me, (since I 
composed the damn thing!)  Freakin' Bendis and his Tarantino style writing!

I'll probably get it posted by tomorrow. 

			*	*	*

Would something like this work?
Posted by Kevin  on December 16, 2002 at 09:26:53:
In Reply to: Re: DD2 Analysis part 3, the conclusion!!!
posted by Kevin   on December 16, 2002 at 09:00:12:

Would something like this work?

The next day, (April 14): DD2 #27, page 21 Ben Urick is working at the Bugle 
when he gets word that the Kingpin is dead. The news passes like wild fire 
through the ranks of the media.

DD2 #29, page 1-2 Vanessa Fisk, the Kingpins wife, is in her foreign resort 
in the Swiss Alps, when she hears about her husbands death, and immediately 
hops on a plane back to America. I believe shes been seperated from her 
husband for quite some time, but now rushs to his aid.

DD2 #30, Flashback #1, Page 2  DD goes to Kingpins office, finds a pool of 
blood on the floor, but the place has been cleared out, like no one ever 
worked there.

DD2 #30, Page 1  DD and Ben Urick meet outside the Daily Bugle. The discuss 
the possibility that the Kingpin might be dead.

The above Page numbers mentioned might be inaccurate, I don't have them in 
front of me right now. It might be difficult to tell which sequences are 
clearly flashbacks.  Half the story is a flashback to one point or another. 
But, yeah, I could give you page numbers, or maybe tell what sequence it is 
in the comic. Does the above sample help?

Did you need citation for the DD2 Analysis part 2, issues 20-25?  That's a 
fairly straightforward story, it's just complex in all it's details.  But 
the story happens linear, as opposed to this current DD storyarc.  

			*	*	*

Re: Would something like this work?
Posted by Antonio on December 16, 2002 at 15:52:59:
In Reply to: Would something like this work?
posted by Kevin  on December 16, 2002 at 09:26:53:

> Did you need citation for the DD2 Analysis part 2, issues 20-25?  That's 
a fairly straightforward story, it's just complex in all it's details.  But 
the story happens linear, as opposed to this current DD storyarc.  

Hey Kevin, if you don't mind I can supply Paul with citations for DD2 20-25, 
using what you have already provided. That way I can take the opportunity to 
make some observations of my own on that part of your work.

I'll wait for your consent.

                            Antonio G.

			*	*	*

Re: Would something like this work?
Posted by Kevin  on December 17, 2002 at 08:49:03:
In Reply to: Re: Would something like this work?
posted by Antonio on December 16, 2002 at 15:52:59:

Feel free to contribute! The more the merrier, I always say! :)  Yeah, feel 
free to provide your own added on citations, (if there's something I missed 
or anything)!  

Like I said, DD 20-25 is a straightforward story, in that it's linear, but 
they cram an awful lot of details into those 6 issues, (it's mostly courtroom 
and law firm type drama).

Paul, the citations for 26-37 will be posted soon.

			*	*	*

Observations on DD2 20-25
Posted by Antonio Gavio on December 24, 2002 at 16:11:15:
In Reply to: Re: Would something like this work?
posted by Kevin  on December 17, 2002 at 08:49:03:

Kevin, here are my own observations on DD2 20-25 as promised. I've used most 
of your work and changed a few thing that were unaccurate. I've used **...** 
for anything added or changed.

Enjoy

DD2 20/2: One night, **full moon, rain, thunders, NFL mews.**

Appearances: Daredevil, Spider-Man

Spidey and Daredevil are sitting in a bar, in costume, yukking it up. They 
leave the bar, go fight off a couple of street thugs, and go their respective 
ways. Its old style Stan Lee goodness. Thats it. Id recommend that this 
story happens before the next story arc, before the main part of issue 20. 
**Given the late September placement of issue 20 (see below) and the full 
moon and NFL news seen here, I'd put this issue the weekend just right before 
September 11th.**

**DD2 Issue 20-FB: One day, probably a week or two before DD2 20.**

Appearances: Matt Murdock.

Matt is defending a Corporate boss accused of racism **and during trial 
interrogates the guy suing.**

DD2 20: One day, **Thursday, September 27th (see below).**

Appearances: Daredevil, Foggy Nelson and Elaine Kendrick, their new legal 
assistant, the Jester, 1st appearance of Samuel Griggs, a New York 
Philanthropist. 

The story starts at the end of a trial that has probably taken several months, 
or at least weeks (In other words, its probably been a long time since DD#15 
ended). Matt and Foggy are defending a Corporate boss accused of racism. 
**After listening reports about the trial on the news DD heads out and thwarts 
a bank robbery, damaging a guy's car in the process, then gets called to 
return to court.** The trial ends in a verdict in his favor. He leaves the 
courthouse and heads back to their lawfirm, where Foggy introduces their new 
legal assistant Elaine Kendrick. Matt and Foggy take note that today is the 
day an old DD foe gets released from prison: the Jester. **As the Jester is 
released from prison that day he dumps his old costume**. Matt is later on 
that day introduced to Samuel Griggs, a popular Philanthropist of rich social 
circles in New York. He says Matt winning that trial this morning settled 
things in his mind: he wants to hire Matt as his lawyer, and he wants to sue 
Daredevil. Griggs explains that "it was the night of the 8th" when Daredevil 
and 2 ninjas came crashing through his greenhouse on his property, fighting 
one another. They punched each other up a bit, and then the two ninjas left 
and DD chased after them. He wants to sue Daredevil for property damage to 
his greenhouse. Matt and Foggy tell Griggs to give them 24 hours, then 
theyll decide if they want to take the case. Matt and Foggy discuss it: Matt 
says he wasnt the one who crashed through that greenhouse, so whoever it was 
was impersonating Daredevil. Matt also can tell through his hearing that 
Griggs isnt lying: he believes Daredevil destroyed his greenhouse. Matt says 
they better take the case, that way they can investigate more thoroughly, and 
keep Griggs from going to another lawyer (who might be more eager to help 
Griggs). **Later that night Matt tries to decide before going to sleep. The 
issue ends there.**

DD2 Issue 21 **Eight days**, starting the day after DD2 20.

**(pg1-3pn1) "Friday, September 28" (as seen in Foggy's calendar)**

Appearances: Daredevil, Foggy Nelson and Elaine Kendrick, Samuel Griggs.

Matt calls up Griggs the next morning (after DD2 20) accepting the offer to 
take the case **and they agree on visiting the scene of the crime on "Monday". 
Later that night Daredevil tries to figure out where to look for a Daredevil 
impersonator with no results.**

**(pg3pn2) "Saturday night", September 29th.**

Appearances: Daredevil.

**DD still tries to figure out where to look for a Daredevil impersonator.**

**(pg3pn3) "Sunday night", September 30th.**

Appearances: Daredevil.

**Daredevil can't find answers yet.**

**(pg3pn4-pg11) "Monday", October 1st.**

Appearances: Daredevil, Foggy Nelson and Elaine Kendrick, Samuel Griggs, 
Kingpin, (a blind Kingpin, complete with "Im blind" glasses), Black Widow, 
Spider-Man **(seen here eating cereal either at his old apartment or at his 
aunt's house, not current apartment)**, J. Jonah Jameson, The Jester.

Matt and Foggy travel out to Griggs mansion, to find it swarming with 
reporters. Griggs has gone ahead and told the press of his plans to sue DD 
(much to Foggy and Matts displeasure). Matt realizes they cant issue a 
subpeona to appear in court to a superhero if they dont know where he 
lives. He thinks the case will never go forward. We see panels showing Black 
Widow, Kingpin, J. Jonah Jameson, and Peter Parkers reactions to the news 
coverage. Spidey and the Widow are shocked, but Kingpin, Jameson and the 
Jester are pleased. **Later that night DD helps a woman being assaulted.**

**(pg12) Tuesday, October 2nd.**

Appearances: Daredevil, Foggy Nelson and Elaine Kendrick.

**Elaine calls Daredevil through the media to come fordward "tomorrow morning" 
and be served in the matter of Griggs versus Daredevil.**

**(pg13-15) Wednesday, October 3rd.**

Appearances: Daredevil, Foggy Nelson and Elaine Kendrick.

**Daredevil watches Elaine wait for him before a big crowd and decides not 
to show up, later at the offices Matt wonders what insanity awaits 
"tomorrow".**

**(pg16-17) Thursday, October 4th.**

Appearances: Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, the Jester.<p>We see the Jester appear 
on Television **in the middle of the field of a **Yankees game, calling DD 
out, saying he is going to perform "tomorrow" at 2PM, Merchant's Bank. He 
appears with a new costume here**

**(pg18-22) Friday, October 5th.**

Appearances: Daredevil, the Jester.

Daredevil meets Jester at the bank to prevent the robbery and catches him, 
the Jester turns around and surprises DD by handing him a subpeona.

**DD2 Issue 22 Same day as the end of DD2 21, the following days or weeks 
till DD finds an attorney, then three days.**

**(pg1-5pn4) Friday, October 5th**

Appearances: Daredevil, Foggy and Elaine, Jester.

Starts off where last issue left off, with the Jester serving DD with a 
subpeona. Daredevil heads back to his law office to see that the police 
didnt bother to arrest the Jester (he was just pulling a theatric to get 
Daredevil to appear, to issue a subpeona). Matt and Foggy are mad when they 
learn that Elaine Kendrick was the one who hired the Jester. She cites the 
fact that they needed unconventional methods if they were going to move a 
case forward. Now, they have no choice but to go forward with the case. 
**Then the guy whose car was damaged in issue 20 shows up saying he might 
be a witness. He states Daredevil damaged his car "last week".**  Since 
Matt Murdock is representing Samuel Griggs he must now find a lawyer to 
represent Daredevil. Matts hope is that theyll be able to settle this 
before it goes to court. But Griggs wants his day in court offly bad.

**(pg5pn5-pn7) Probably weeks after last segment.**

Appearances: Daredevil.

Daredevil goes around town to various lawyers, all of whom ask that he 
reveal his secret identity. Thats the one thing DD wont agree to (These 
scenes seem to happen over a few days).

**(pg6-10) One day.**

Appearances: Daredevil, first appearance of Daredevils lawyer: Kate Vinokur.

Finally, DD meets a young, enthusiastic and honest lawyer named Kate Vinokur. 
She only asks that he be able to pay her fees. They get along, and she 
accepts him as his lawyer. **They decide to call a press conference for 
"tomorrow at 2PM".**

**(pg11-15) The day after the last segment.**

Appearances: Daredevil, Foggy, Kate Vinokur, J. Jonah Jameson.

Daredevil and Kate Vinokur appear before a camera crew together the next day 
to announce their defense. **DD leaves suddendly after hearing the sound of 
a burglar alarm thinking robbery and comes in crashing a building's skylight 
to find out they where just trying some new sonic technology. Later that 
night Foggy and Matt watch a news talk show where J. Jonah Jameson criticizes 
DD. They decide to give Kate enough information to make sure she'll try to 
convince Daredevil to settle.**

**(pg16-22) Probably the day after the previous segment.**

Appearances: Daredevil, Kate Vinokur, Foggy Nelson and Elaine Kendrick, 
Samuel Griggs.

**Kate talks Daredevil into settlement, Foggy calls Griggs and just when 
things seem finally to be working out** Griggs pulls another stunt and 
announces on T.V. that if Daredevil will admit his guilt, and pay for the 
repairs, hell donate $50,000 to a "crippled childrens society".

**DD2 Issue 23-FB The next day after the end of DD2 22.**

Appearances: Kate Vinokur, Daredevil, Black Panther.

**Kate Vinokur announces public response at three o'clock, Daredevil visits 
Black Panther at the Wakandan Embassy (not the Avengers).**

**DD2 Issue 23  Same day as DD2 23-FB and the following day, one day a few 
days later, then three days probably the following week.**

**(pg1-3) The day after issue 22.**

Appearances: Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, Kate Vinokur, Samuel Griggs.

**News reporting Griggs offered to drop his lawsuit "yesterday" also show 
an earlier statement from DD's attorney to have a public response at "three 
o'clock" and DD visiting the Black Panther. Then DD arrives at the news 
conference** and agrees to give 100,000 to a "blind kids" society if Griggs d
rops the lawsuit. **Griggs gets upset and wants nothing but trial now.**

**(pg4) Probably the day after the last segment.**

Appearances: Matt Murdock, Kate Vinokur.

**Matt and Kate agree on a joint petition for the earliest posibble trial 
date.**

**(pg5) Probably a few days after pg4. Monday, November 5th (since DD2 21 
pg18-22 occurs on Friday, October 5th and given the amount of time passed 
after that we figure this is not the same but the following month).**

Appearances: Daredevil, Kate Vinokur.

**A judge grants petition for a trial begining with Jury Selection "in two 
weeks, on the 19th".**

**(pg6-8) One day, probably Monday of the following week after pg5.**

Appearances: Matt Murdock, Foggy Nelson and Elaine Kendrick.

Matts gotta figure out what Griggs saw or didnt see that night, to prevent 
this from going to court, and him purjuring himself. **Elaine finds out that 
Griggs, a married man, has been seing an "extracurricular girlfriend".** Matt 
learns **later that night** from Griggs adultress lover that she saw him get 
out of their bed the night of the "DD attack", leave their loveshack without 
explanation, and head home. **Matt decides they need to pay another visit to 
Griggs.**

**(pg9-10pn4) Probably  the day after pg6-8, "Tuesday" (see below), November 
13th.**

Appearances: Matt Murdock, Foggy Nelson, Samuel Griggs, The Ringmaster (BTS).

**Griggs asks to leave his lover out of the case, he truly believes he wasn't 
with her the night of the 8th.** Suspecting something, Matt tells Griggs they 
need colaborating evidence, evidence that someone else saw the events of the 
"DD attack".

**(pg10pn5-pg22) One day, "two days" after pg5-10pn4, Thursday, November 
15th.**

Appearances: Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, Elaine Kendrick, Samuel Griggs, The 
Matador (Miguel Eloganto), The Ringmaster (BTS).

**"Two days" after the last segment** an old man appears at Murdocks 
lawfirm, saying that he saw DD and two ninjas jumping across the street 
attacking each other, heading in the direction of Griggs' house. Matt can 
tell hes not lying. Matt does some investigating **checking Griggs' 
appointment book starting from "Tuesday" when they told him they needed a 
witness until this morning** and learns that both Griggs and the old man 
attend the same psychaitrist: a Dr. Arnold Quaid. DD pays this doctor a 
visit: in Dr. Quaids office, he finds sitting behind the desk an old foe 
of DDs: The Matador, (Miguel Eloganto). Another old cheesy villian. Eloganto 
goes on to explain the powers of mind control. DD immediately places 
Eloganto under citizens arrest and drags him down to Griggs office. He 
breaks into one of Griggs staff meetings, and demands Eloganto confess to 
his crime. Eloganto says he has no idea what DD is talking about, and that 
hes reformed. He says he was on his way to a job interview when DD dragged 
him in here off the street. DD can tell he believes what hes saying. DD 
realizes that Eloganto was being mind controlled as well. Griggs, meanwhile, 
has all this on tape from the security cameras in his office. Hes succeeding 
in making DD out to be a fool. Besides, as Eloganto said back in the office: 
theres no law against implanting false memories.

**DD2 Issue 24 Four days, beginning a couple days after the end of issue 23.**

**(pg1-5) One day probably a couple days after the end of issue 23, November 
17th.**

Appearances: Daredevil, Foggy, Elaine Kendrick, Kate Vinokur, The Ringmaster 
(BTS).

**Dr. Quaid sends a self-destructive letter to Daredevil.** Since DD cant 
locate this Quaid fellow, the trials going to have to go forward. **Jury 
Selection is said to begin "the day after tomorrow".**

**(pg6-8) Day after last segment, November 18th.**

Appearances: Matt Murdock, Foggy, Samuel Griggs, The Ringmaster (BTS).

**Since Griggs won't give Dr. Quaid's phone number, Matt asks just for Quaid 
to call him. Later Griggs tell Matt that Quaid is gonna call him as requested. 
Jury selection said to begin "tomorrow".**

**(pg9-14) The day after last segment, "November 19th".**

Appearances: Matt, Foggy, Elaine Kendrick, Samuel Griggs, Kate Vinokur, The 
Ringmaster (BTS).

**Jury Selection for trial of Daredevil takes place, "Dr. Quaid" calls Matt 
but leaves no trace. First day of trial said to happen "tomorrow".**

**(15-22) The day after last segment, November 20th.**

Appearances: Matt, Foggy, Elaine Kendrick, Samuel Griggs, Kate Vinokur, 
Spiderman.

Murdock cant be in two places at once, so he shows up in court as Griggs 
lawyer...and Peter Parker shows up as Daredevil. As they sit down for trial, 
Kate Vinokur whispers: "Who the hell are you? Youre not the DD Ive come to 
know. The chin and the voice are all wrong". Spidey tells her to just go 
with it. Day 1 of the trial concludes **as opening statements are made; 
Foggy promises to show more evidence "tomorrow".**

**DD2  Issue 25-FB The day after issue 24, November 21st.**

Appearances: Matt, Foggy, Elaine Kendrick, Samuel Griggs (all four BTS), 
Spiderman, Kate Vinokur. (All seen in TV News)

The trial wraps up on its 2nd day **as Foggy presents damning evidence (the 
tape showing DD confronting Griggs in his private office asserting griggs had 
been hypnotized by the Matador) and "Daredevil" (Peter Parker under the 
costume) denies involment in the damage to Griggs' greenhouse.**

**DD2 25 Three days, beginning the same day as DD2 25-FB**

**(pg1) One day after the end of issue 24, November 21st.**

Appearances: --

**A TV newsman reports the highlights of Day 2 of the trial of DD (those of 
DD2 25-FB) as having happened "today" and announces Daredevil's cross-
examination by Foggy Nelson to begin "tomorrow".**

**(pg2-16) The day after pg1, November 22nd.**

Appearances: Daredevil, Foggy, Elaine Kendrick, Spiderman, Kate Vinokur, 
Samuel Griggs, J. Jonah Jameson. 

Spidey shows up again as DD, but Matt doesnt show up to defend Griggs. Foggy 
has to handle the case, **he asks "DD" if he met Griggs at his office "last 
wednesday" (wich should be a mistake by Foggy since that happened on a 
Thursday "two days after Tuesday") and "DD" denies it**. Theyre an hour into 
the trial, (and Griggs is getting mad that his star lawyer Murdock isnt 
there) when Matt and his legal assistant Elaine Kendrick show up. Murdock 
says he got a disturbing phone call from someone asking him to bring a video 
camera to a street corner at **9:05 A.M.** He sent Elaine down there with a 
camera, and lo and behold, who comes swinging by but Daredevil! (yes, Matt 
had this set up, so Elaine would catch him on camera **around a clock display 
showing the time and "today's date". The time is shown to be 9:07 and the 
date seems to read 11/30/01, the month must be right but the day can't be 
since it's only been three days since "Jury selection on the 19th"**) Murdock 
says in light of this footage, he must ask this case be dismissed, since its 
obvious that there is someone else out there as Daredevil. Obviously, since 
the public dont know whos under the mask, how can they ask the DD on the 
stand to pay for a crime, when anybody could possibly put on that mask.

Just then, another DD comes bursting through the Courtroom window. He says 
that hes the real Daredevil, and he pulls off his hood to reveal his face: 
just some low wage earning guy named Terrence Hillman, who admires DD, and 
wanted to help him out. 

Before the audience though, he says "I was the one who busted up your 
greenhouse Mr. Griggs. Heres a check for the damages". The judge asks "well, 
who the hell is this guy on the stand, then?". The new DD says "I was 
training him to be the New Daredevil. Ive decided to retire".

Matt was the person behind DD appearing down on Times Square before the 
cameras, but he and Foggy didnt plan on this guy accepting credit, but they 
let him play his part. The judge, in a rage, declares a mistrial. **Leaving 
court Hillman is asked if it was him who threatened Griggs "last week" in 
his office and he declines to answer. Jameson appears on TV.**

Later that day, Kate Vinokur demands an explanation, saying she feels used. 
DD explains that he had a friend stand in as DD at the trial, but the Terrance 
guy bursting through the window, that wasnt his idea. Kate still has a new 
distaste in her mouth for superheros though.

That night, DD pays Terrance a visit in his lonely house. Terrance just 
explains, (out of fear) that he just wanted to help. He figured hed get 
some publicity as "the man behind the mask" and this would let the real DD 
continue to act as a superhero. He also says he did it to impress a girl. 
DD warns him the publicity will put him in danger, but leaves him alone, 
(hes sure that the media will see through his lies in a few months). 

**(pg17-22) Probably the day after last segment.**

Appearances: Daredevil, Foggy, The Ringmaster, Spiderman, Kate Vinokur.

DD and Spidey are discussing all this madness on a rooftop, when DD gets a 
call from Kate. She says she got a letter from Arnold Quaid, addressed to DD, 
telling him its time they met. DD goes to the address inside the letter, an 
old office building. Inside, he finds The Ringmaster, who explains yes, hes 
the guy behind all the mind control. He says he got the name "Arnold Quaid" 
from that old movie Total Recall (which, of course, is about Mind control). 
DD asks him why he did all this. Ringmaster says he just wanted to test out a 
new mind control device, and what better way then to use it on an old foe. 
Ringmaster then pulls a lever and sends DD through a trap door, which 
deposits him outside. DD realizes, once again, that there is no law against 
implanting false memories, so he figures he has to let it be, (he knows the 
Ringmaster will mess up someday, performing a crime).

DD pays one last visit to his lawyer Kate. They had been feeling an attraction 
shortly after they met, but Kates realized that since she can never know 
whos under the mask, (unless he were to reveal it), she wants nothing more 
to do with him. So when DD asks her out on a date, now that court's over, 
she politely turns him down. The story ends with Matt and Foggy sitting 
around in a bar having a few beers, celebrating the "victory". Matts 
depressed that his newfound relationship with Kate is on the rocks. Foggy 
says "Dont worry, shell call you". Matt says "How can you be so sure?" 
Foggy says "Cause you still owe her the bill for her services". They laugh, 
and the story fades to black.

			*	*	*

Re: Observations on DD2 20-25
Posted by Kevin  on December 26, 2002 at 12:54:15:
In Reply to: Observations on DD2 20-25
posted by Antonio Gavio on December 24, 2002 at 16:11:15:

Man...and I thought I had an attention for details.  Well, I've read 
through most of this, and it looks good.  The only reason I was able to 
provide dates for the chronology in issues 26 to 37 was because of one 
date given: April 18th. That, and the fact that the narration would clearly 
use narrative captions that read stuff like: "2 days ago" or "1 week ago" 
and so on...

What you seem to have done is gone somewhere I feared to tread.  You use 
of hand references by characters, like "Last Wednesday" or "Next week on 
the 19th" or stuff like that, and have created somewhat of a timeline.  So 
where do you get your dates?  Was there an actual date shown that said 
"October 5th"? I read through this, and I couldn't see if you pointed such 
a thing out specifically.  Yeah, you've made good use of references such 
as "last Monday" or "the 19th" or whatever...but was a specific date like 
"Oct. 5th" given? I'm sorry if I've missed it reading through your text, 
but maybe I'm just sleepy.

You've done a great job of noting the progression of time, I'm just 
wondering if you got a specific date to work with, that's all.  The only 
date reference I saw was Griggs saying "It was the night of the 8th", but 
that was Grigg's making up a story out of hypnosis from the Ringmaster...

> DD2 20/2: One night, **full moon, rain, thunders, NFL mews.**

About this: Yeah, this is my bad, I should have noted full moon, Rain, and 
the NFL news, but it was only a quickie story, with little bearing on the 
rest of the Marvel Universe, so you did good in noting these observations 
in this back up story. I should have done it the first time around, but I 
passed over the story a little quickly.

> Appearances: Daredevil, Spider-Man

> Spidey and Daredevil are sitting in a bar, in costume, yukking it up. 
They leave the bar, go fight off a couple of street thugs, and go their 
respective ways. Its old style Stan Lee goodness. Thats it. Id recommend 
that this story happens before the next story arc, before the main part of 
issue 20. **Given the late September placement of issue 20 (see below) and 
the full moon and NFL news seen here, I'd put this issue the weekend just 
right before September 11th.**

> **DD2 Issue 20-FB: One day, probably a week or two before DD2 20.**

> Appearances: Matt Murdock.

> Matt is defending a Corporate boss accused of racism **and during trial 
interrogates the guy suing.**

>  DD2 20: One day, **Thursday, September 27th (see below).**

> Appearances: Daredevil, Foggy Nelson and Elaine Kendrick, their new legal 
assistant, the Jester, 1st appearance of Samuel Griggs, a New York 
Philanthropist. 

> The story starts at the end of a trial that has probably taken several 
months, or at least weeks (In other words, its probably been a long time 
since DD#15 ended). Matt and Foggy are defending a Corporate boss accused 
of racism. **After listening reports about the trial on the news DD heads 
out and thwarts a bank robbery, damaging a guy's car in the process, then 
gets called to return to court.** The trial ends in a verdict in his favor. 
He leaves the courthouse and heads back to their lawfirm, where Foggy 
introduces their new legal assistant Elaine Kendrick. Matt and Foggy take 
note that today is the day an old DD foe gets released from prison: the 
Jester. **As the Jester is released from prison that day he dumps his old 
costume**. Matt is later on that day introduced to Samuel Griggs, a popular 
Philanthropist of rich social circles in New York. He says Matt winning that 
trial this morning settled things in his mind: he wants to hire Matt as his 
lawyer, and he wants to sue Daredevil.

> Griggs explains that "it was the night of the 8th" when Daredevil and 2 
ninjas came crashing through his greenhouse on his property, fighting one 
another. They punched each other up a bit, and then the two ninjas left 
and DD chased after them. He wants to sue Daredevil for property damage to 
his greenhouse. Matt and Foggy tell Griggs to give them 24 hours, then 
theyll decide if they want to take the case.

> Matt and Foggy discuss it: Matt says he wasnt the one who crashed through 
that greenhouse, so whoever it was was impersonating Daredevil. Matt also 
can tell through his hearing that Griggs isnt lying: he believes Daredevil 
destroyed his greenhouse. Matt says they better take the case, that way 
they can investigate more thoroughly, and keep Griggs from going to another 
lawyer (who might be more eager to help Griggs). **Later that night Matt 
tries to decide before going to sleep. The issue ends there.**

> DD2 Issue 21 **Eight days**, starting the day after DD2 20.

> **(pg1-3pn1) "Friday, September 28" (as seen in Foggy's calendar)**

> Appearances: Daredevil, Foggy Nelson and Elaine Kendrick, Samuel Griggs.

OH, wait...is this where you get the dates?  You saw the month/date of Sept. 
28th from Foggy's calender?  I failed to notice such a thing, but if that's 
there, then bravo for your attention to detail!

> Matt calls up Griggs the next morning (after DD2 20) accepting the offer 
to take the case **and they agree on visiting the scene of the crime on 
"Monday". Later that night Daredevil tries to figure out where to look for 
a Daredevil impersonator with no results.**

> **(pg3pn2) "Saturday night", September 29th.**

> Appearances: Daredevil.

> **DD still tries to figure out where to look for a Daredevil impersonator.**

> **(pg3pn3) "Sunday night", September 30th.**

> Appearances: Daredevil.

> **Daredevil can't find answers yet.**

I didn't notice this progression of time.  I thought they met with Griggs 
the next day at his house, where they were then confronted by the media.  If 
your right, then my bad,woops!

> **(pg3pn4-pg11) "Monday", October 1st.**

> Appearances: Daredevil, Foggy Nelson and Elaine Kendrick, Samuel Griggs, 
Kingpin, (a blind Kingpin, complete with "Im blind" glasses), Black Widow, 
Spider-Man **(seen here eating cereal either at his old apartment or at his 
aunt's house, not current apartment)**, J. Jonah Jameson, The Jester.

> Matt and Foggy travel out to Griggs mansion, to find it swarming with 
reporters. Griggs has gone ahead and told the press of his plans to sue DD 
(much to Foggy and Matts displeasure). Matt realizes they cant issue a 
subpeona to appear in court to a superhero if they dont know where he 
lives. He thinks the case will never go forward. We see panels showing Black 
Widow, Kingpin, J. Jonah Jameson, and Peter Parkers reactions to the news 
coverage. Spidey and the Widow are shocked, but Kingpin, Jameson and the 
Jester are pleased. **Later that night DD helps a woman being assaulted.**

> **Kate Vinokur announces public response at three o'clock, Daredevil 
visits Black Panther at the Wakandan Embassy (not the Avengers).**

Whoops, my bad. I should have clearly seen it was the Wakandan Embassy.

Overall, great job!  I never would have thought to pay attention to whether 
an NFL game is going on, or the fact that the Yankees were having a game.

I'd like to hear Paul's thoughts on this.  He may be off for the holiday's, 
but I'm sure he'll eye this eventually.

Here's some followup questions:  What about the Kang War? Wasn't it at it's 
peak during this time period? During those short few weeks where Kang ruled 
the Earth, would that cause a cramp in your timeline, Antonio?  THat was 
another reason I was hesitant to put a specific time on this storyline. :)

			*	*	*

Re: Observations on DD2 20-25
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 26, 2002 at 21:16:24:
In Reply to: Re: Observations on DD2 20-25
posted by Kevin  on December 26, 2002 at 12:54:15:

> Overall, great job!  I never would have thought to pay attention to 
whether an NFL game is going on, or the fact that the Yankees were having 
a game.

> I'd like to hear Paul's thoughts on this.  He may be off for the holiday's, 
but I'm sure he'll eye this eventually.

I have to say, Antonio and Kevin, you two have done a great job of nailing 
down temporal references for a series that I don't have.  After looking at 
the notes for DD2 20-37, and as I'm working your notes into the calendar, I 
have two general observations to make...

DD2 20-25: I don't see any major problems in the calendar placement you two 
have suggested for these issues, starting with DD2 20/2 occurring on (I 
would say) Sunday, Sept. 9 (one day after Spidey's appearance in MAXSEC 3, 
and two days before 9-11), and ending with DD2 25 pg. 17-22 on Friday, 
November 23.

DD2 26-37: see below...

> Here's some followup questions:  What about the Kang War? Wasn't it at it's 
peak during this time period? During those short few weeks where Kang ruled 
the Earth, would that cause a cramp in your timeline, Antonio?  THat was 
another reason I was hesitant to put a specific time on this storyline. :)

DD2 26-37: Placement of the Kang War and the revised placement of Cap's 
unmasking (after DD's) would make Antonio's calendar placement of this arc 
problematic.  I'm inclined to move the whole arc two months forward, with 
the "April 18" reference more suitable as "June 18," just before Cap's 
unmasking (in CA4 3, prior to the July 4 of CA4 4 but not Easter as shown).  
With  this revised placement, DD29-FB pg. 17-19 (the poker scene with Silke 
and Richard Fisk) would be the only part to occur during the height of the 
Kang War, if one accepts my calendar placement of the war in April. The 
entire arc would start in mid March (DD2 27-FB pg. 18-20) and end on 
Wednesday, August 7 (DD2 37 pg. 13-21). 

Thus DD2 20-37 (eighteen issues) take us from early September to early 
August, 11 months of Marvel Time.

I'm still in the process of plotting this all on the calendar, but these 
are my first thoughts.  Any problem with ignoring the newspaper date in DD2 
32?  Are there other telling temporal references in DD2 26-37 that would 
support or refute my proposal for re-placement of these issues?  Additional 
notes like Antonio's for issues 26-37 would be very helpful.

Thanks a lot, guys.  Keep up the great temporal detective work!

--Paul
(anxious also to hear from Antonio on the Spidey chronology/calendar effort)

			*	*	*

Re: Observations on DD2 20-25
Posted by Kevin  on December 28, 2002 at 16:00:14:
In Reply to: Re: Observations on DD2 20-25
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 26, 2002 at 21:16:24:

> DD2 20-25: I don't see any major problems in the calendar placement you 
two have suggested for these issues, starting with DD2 20/2 occurring on (I 
would say) Sunday, Sept. 9 (one day after Spidey's appearance in MAXSEC 3, 
and two days before 9-11), and ending with DD2 25 pg. 17-22 on Friday, 
November 23.

I concur...

> DD2 26-37: Placement of the Kang War and the revised placement of Cap's 
unmasking (after DD's) would make Antonio's calendar placement of this arc 
problematic.  I'm inclined to move the whole arc two months forward, with 
the "April 18" reference more suitable as "June 18," just before Cap's 
unmasking (in CA4 3, prior to the July 4 of CA4 4 but not Easter as shown).  
With  this revised placement, DD29-FB pg. 17-19 (the poker scene with Silke 
and Richard Fisk) would be the only part to occur during the height of the 
Kang War, if one accepts my calendar placement of the war in April. The 
entire arc would start in mid March (DD2 27-FB pg. 18-20) and end on 
Wednesday, August 7 (DD2 37 pg. 13-21). 

> Thus DD2 20-37 (eighteen issues) take us from early September to early 
August, 11 months of Marvel Time.

> I'm still in the process of plotting this all on the calendar, but these 
are my first thoughts.  Any problem with ignoring the newspaper date in DD2 
32?  Are there other telling temporal references in DD2 26-37 that would 
support or refute my proposal for re-placement of these issues?  Additional 
notes like Antonio's for issues 26-37 would be very helpful.

> Thanks a lot, guys.  Keep up the great temporal detective work!

> --Paul

> (anxious also to hear from Antonio on the Spidey chronology/calendar effort)

Man, I forgot when the "Kang War Proper" started and ended. I thought it was 
in the late autumn, after Sept. 11th. Are you saying it was in the winter of 
the following year?  That's why I thought the Kang War might hurt Antonio's 
timeline, considering it's set in the fall.  I didn't even think about it 
hurting the timeline I proposed. Maybe I need to reexamine your timeline, 
Paul.

As for the rearranging of dates, well, I feel it should only be done if 
nothing else can be done. When the CAPvol.4 series says that CAP revealed 
his identity on Easter, I'm inclined to say that it was indeed revealed on 
Easter.  

Was Kang ruling the Earth during the month of April? I need a refresher 
course.  

The April 18th date shown is the only hard date seen inside the comic, (but 
perhaps I don't have the eye for detail Antonio has shown :)) and I think 
the reason they used the April 18th date was because that was the date that 
comic was published. I don't remember football or baseball references at all 
during those issues, and as for the weather...it rained in some of the 
nighttime scenes...and I don't remember anyone saying it was cold outside...
jeez, I don't know.

Just another quick thought:  Does DD have to reveal his identity first before 
CAP did it?  Maybe the reason the press went after Daredevil is because the 
revelation of CAP's identity sent the Press into a fury, so that the Daily 
Globe was all to eager to run a story on the man beneath DD's mask?  I would 
say that they both occured near each other, but I'm still undecided about 
which came first.  And I think the Easter date is important, and that would 
be April, so initially I don't know if moving the dates is for the best.  

But if the Kang War's occuring during April, then, YES, that MIGHT cause a 
dilemma...see, I'd have to review your calender more throughly!:)

Does Easter always occur in April? Doesn't it sometimes fall in March?  All's 
I'm saying is that Easter is a flexible date.

			*	*	*

Re: Observations on DD2 20-25
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 28, 2002 at 22:13:25:
In Reply to: Re: Observations on DD2 20-25
posted by Kevin  on December 28, 2002 at 16:00:14:

>> > DD2 20-25: I don't see any major problems in the calendar placement you 
two have suggested for these issues, starting with DD2 20/2 occurring on (I 
would say) Sunday, Sept. 9 (one day after Spidey's appearance in MAXSEC 3, 
and two days before 9-11), and ending with DD2 25 pg. 17-22 on Friday, 
November 23.

> I concur...

Except for it ending on Saturday, November 24 (see other post).

> Man, I forgot when the "Kang War Proper" started and ended. I thought it 
was in the late autumn, after Sept. 11th. Are you saying it was in the winter 
of the following year?  That's why I thought the Kang War might hurt Antonio's 
timeline, considering it's set in the fall.  I didn't even think about it 
hurting the timeline I proposed. Maybe I need to reexamine your timeline, 
Paul.

Please do.  A whole host of chronological considerations from Avengers, 
Thunderbolts, and X-Men timelines placed the heart of the Kang War in April, 
and I hesitate to move it all based on a newspaper date in an issue of 
Daredevil.

> As for the rearranging of dates, well, I feel it should only be done if 
nothing else can be done. When the CAPvol.4 series says that CAP revealed 
his identity on Easter, I'm inclined to say that it was indeed revealed on 
Easter.  

> Was Kang ruling the Earth during the month of April? I need a refresher 
course.  

Yes, and Cap didn't reveal his ID until after the Kang War, so whether Easter 
happened in March or April is irrelevant.  The placement of CA3 3 on Easter 
doesn't work, but CA3 4 on July 4 does, and there's no real reason plotwise 
for there to be such a big time gap between the two issues.  In fact, I think 
it helps the storyline to compress the time.

> The April 18th date shown is the only hard date seen inside the comic, (but 
perhaps I don't have the eye for detail Antonio has shown :)) and I think the 
reason they used the April 18th date was because that was the date that comic 
was published. I don't remember football or baseball references at all during 
those issues, and as for the weather...it rained in some of the nighttime 
scenes...and I don't remember anyone saying it was cold outside...jeez, I 
don't know.

Here's an observation: I think the date in the paper in DD2 32 was "Tuesday, 
April 18," but according to my calculations (extrapolating from those earlier 
DD2 issues, and from 9-11 occurring on a Tuesday in the MU, as in the real 
world), June 18 occurred on a Tuesday and April 18 didn't.  So the newspaper 
date has to be wrong to some degree.  I'll take Tuesday the 18th, but say 
it's June, not April.

Maybe Antonio can put his talents to work on finding other temporal clues...
(hint, hint)

> Just another quick thought:  Does DD have to reveal his identity first 
before CAP did it?  Maybe the reason the press went after Daredevil is 
because the revelation of CAP's identity sent the Press into a fury, so 
that the Daily Globe was all to eager to run a story on the man beneath 
DD's mask?  I would say that they both occured near each other, but I'm 
still undecided about which came first.  And I think the Easter date is 
important, and that would be April, so initially I don't know if moving 
the dates is for the best. 

In some previous thread, either Sean or Jeph made an argument that DD's 
unmasking should predate Cap's.  I don't recall the rationale off-hand.  
Gentlemen, if you're following the post, can you jump in? 

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Observations on DD2 20-25
Posted by Kevin  on December 29, 2002 at 16:58:45:
In Reply to: Re: Observations on DD2 20-25
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 28, 2002 at 22:13:25:

> > Man, I forgot when the "Kang War Proper" started and ended. I thought 
it was in the late autumn, after Sept. 11th. Are you saying it was in the 
winter of the following year?  That's why I thought the Kang War might hurt 
Antonio's timeline, considering it's set in the fall.  I didn't even think 
about it hurting the timeline I proposed. Maybe I need to reexamine your 
timeline, Paul.

> Please do.  A whole host of chronological considerations from Avengers, 
Thunderbolts, and X-Men timelines placed the heart of the Kang War in April, 
and I hesitate to move it all based on a newspaper date in an issue of 
Daredevil.

> > As for the rearranging of dates, well, I feel it should only be done if 
nothing else can be done. When the CAPvol.4 series says that CAP revealed 
his identity on Easter, I'm inclined to say that it was indeed revealed on 
Easter.  

> > Was Kang ruling the Earth during the month of April? I need a refresher 
course.  

> Yes, and Cap didn't reveal his ID until after the Kang War, so whether 
Easter happened in March or April is irrelevant.  The placement of CA3 3 on 
Easter doesn't work, but CA3 4 on July 4 does, and there's no real reason 
plotwise for there to be such a big time gap between the two issues.  In 
fact, I think it helps the storyline to compress the time.

> > The April 18th date shown is the only hard date seen inside the comic, 
(but perhaps I don't have the eye for detail Antonio has shown :)) and I 
think the reason they used the April 18th date was because that was the date 
that comic was published. I don't remember football or baseball references 
at all during those issues, and as for the weather...it rained in some of 
the nighttime scenes...and I don't remember anyone saying it was cold 
outside...jeez, I don't know.

> Here's an observation: I think the date in the paper in DD2 32 was 
"Tuesday, April 18," but according to my calculations (extrapolating from 
those earlier DD2 issues, and from 9-11 occurring on a Tuesday in the MU, 
as in the real world), June 18 occurred on a Tuesday and April 18 didn't.  
So the newspaper date has to be wrong to some degree.  I'll take Tuesday 
the 18th, but say it's June, not April.

> Maybe Antonio can put his talents to work on finding other temporal 
clues...(hint, hint)

Yeah, cause as I stated in another post, I'm out of town, and am unable to 
look through my comics. I could get back to you on that in a few days though, 
unless Antonio wants to jump in, (hint, hint...hey, all this hinting is 
fun! :))

> > Just another quick thought:  Does DD have to reveal his identity first 
before CAP did it?  Maybe the reason the press went after Daredevil is 
because the revelation of CAP's identity sent the Press into a fury, so that 
the Daily Globe was all to eager to run a story on the man beneath DD's mask?  
I would say that they both occured near each other, but I'm still undecided 
about which came first.  And I think the Easter date is important, and that 
would be April, so initially I don't know if moving the dates is for the best. 

> In some previous thread, either Sean or Jeph made an argument that DD's 
unmasking should predate Cap's.  I don't recall the rationale off-hand.  
Gentlemen, if you're following the post, can you jump in? 

I thought the only reason they gave was that the Press seemed to follow the 
DD story  more closely than they seemed to follow CAP's.  Wether that's merit 
for DD's unmasking going before CAP's, I can't say for certain. I'd like to 
hear their thoughts on the subject as well.

			*	*	*

Re: Observations on DD2 20-25
Posted by Antonio on December 29, 2002 at 17:05:49:
In Reply to: Re: Observations on DD2 20-25
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 28, 2002 at 22:13:25:

> Here's an observation: I think the date in the paper in DD2 32 was 
"Tuesday, April 18," but according to my calculations (extrapolating from 
those earlier DD2 issues, and from 9-11 occurring on a Tuesday in the MU, 
as in the real world), June 18 occurred on a Tuesday and April 18 didn't.  
So the newspaper date has to be wrong to some degree.  I'll take Tuesday the 
18th, but say it's June, not April.

> Maybe Antonio can put his talents to work on finding other temporal 
clues...(hint, hint)

Actually the given date in the paper is Wednesday, April 18th.

			*	*	*

Re: Observations on DD2 20-25
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 29, 2002 at 17:55:16:
In Reply to: Re: Observations on DD2 20-25
posted by Antonio on December 29, 2002 at 17:05:49:

Drat!  But Wednesday falls on the 18th only in December of the year in 
question (and that's much too late for this story), so I guess the newspaper 
must be wrong to some degree -- the question is, "How wrong is it?"  In the 
general scheme of temporal clues, newspaper dates don't rank particularly 
high, especially if countered by other evidence elsewhere in the MU.  Other 
temporal references in these issues of DD might help us dismiss the newspaper 
reference as topical.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Unmasking order!
Posted by Jeph! on January 01, 2003 at 00:15:50:
In Reply to: Re: Observations on DD2 20-25
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 28, 2002 at 22:13:25:

> In some previous thread, either Sean or Jeph made an argument that DD's 
unmasking should predate Cap's.  I don't recall the rationale off-hand.  
Gentlemen, if you're following the post, can you jump in?

I sure am following this discussion, but sadly I don't have much to add.  My 
take on the Cap/Iron Man/DD "unmasking order" has always been, "sit back and 
let the books show us which came first."

The closest I can recall to any "in-book" clues was an issue of Deadline 
with a headline reading "Cap: Who's Under the Mask Now?", and Ben Urich 
talking about his choice to not reveal DD's identity way back in DD #164.  
And all THAT implies is, Dealine takes place before EITHER ONE unmasks.  
Not terribly helpful.

Sean may have an opinion or two on the subject, but I really don't think 
it matters one way or the other -- however the books fall, whatever the 
books dictate through evidence and inference, is fine by me.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Daredevil and Captain America's Secret Identities
Posted by Andy Holcombe on December 30, 2002 at 00:26:52:
In Reply to: Re: Observations on DD2 20-25
posted by Kevin  on December 28, 2002 at 16:00:14:

> Just another quick thought:  Does DD have to reveal his identity first 
before CAP did it?

I think thast the press went after Daredevil more than Cap because Matt 
Murdock is a well known person.  Steve Rogers is just some guy.  Maybe he's 
the former school teacher or comic book artist, or political volunteer, but 
maybe not.  In any event, who really cares?  Murdock on the other hand, is 
a famous attorney, often seen in high profile cases involving super-humans.  
Also, Iron Man and Captain America outed themselves.  Not so much of a story 
there.  Daredevil was outed by some other party, and may or may not be 
credible.  Plus, Murdock's supposed to be blind.  Is he lying about his 
disability, or is he some sort of freek?  Murdock also tried Daredevil 
recently.  While that hasn't come into the current storyline, it might be 
on some people's mind.  Murdock has also been linked to Daredevil in the 
past, including by the press.  The press doesn't like being made a fool of.

			*	*	*

One problem with DD2 25
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 28, 2002 at 20:14:58:
In Reply to: Re: Observations on DD2 20-25
posted by Kevin  on December 26, 2002 at 12:54:15:

Kevin and Antonio,

Just one minor problem with the calendar placement of a portion of DD2 25.  
You have the third and final day of DD's trial occurring on Thursday, 
November 22.  This is the fourth Thursday of November, aka Thanksgiving, 
and the court would be closed for the holiday.  Fear not, though, for I 
have a solution.  When the news reporter on day 2 of the trial announces 
that the cross-examination by Foggy is to begin "tomorrow," he just made 
a mistake, forgetting that the next day is Thanksgiving.  Saying the next 
day of something is "tomorrow" when it isn't is a common mistake, after all.

Thus we have DD2 25 as follows...

FB: Wednesday, Nov. 21
page 1: Wednesday, Nov. 21
pages 1-16: Friday, Nov. 23 (hey, this means that the clock showing the 
date as 11/30 got the day of the week right!)
pages 17-22: Saturday, Nov. 24

BTW, the Thanksgiving is the same one shown in part 1 of UX '00.  Do we see 
hints of snow on pages 17-22 of DD2 25?  I place that day as the "first snow 
of the season" in part 2 of UX '00, which happened "thirty shopping days till 
Christmas."

(Now tell me this calendar placement stuff ain't fun...)

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: One problem with DD2 25
Posted by Kevin  on December 29, 2002 at 16:51:10:
In Reply to: One problem with DD2 25
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 28, 2002 at 20:14:58:

Yes, it is fun!  But I'm out of town on vacation, (using someone else's 
computer) so I couldn't answer your questions here.  Maybe Antonio can get 
back to you faster on your proposition for DD2 25, but I think what you 
propose is probably allright.

			*	*	*

Re: One problem with DD2 25
Posted by Antonio on December 29, 2002 at 17:39:27:
In Reply to: One problem with DD2 25
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 28, 2002 at 20:14:58:

The problem is that in pages 15-22 of DD2 24 Matt says that Daredevil's 
cross-examination will begin "the day after tomorrow". That would be two 
people doing the same mistake.

I'm inclined to believe that in the Marvel Universe they work on holydays 
when given 'extracurricular exceptions', it's Sunday on DD2 24 pages 6-8 
when a judge announces Jury selection to begin "tomorrow"

> BTW, the Thanksgiving is the same one shown in part 1 of UX '00.  Do we 
see hints of snow on pages 17-22 of DD2 25?  I place that day as the "first 
snow of the season" in part 2 of UX '00, which happened "thirty shopping 
days till Christmas."

No signs of snow at all on DD2 25 pages 17-22; neither in the afternoon 
around the time Daredevil sees the Ringmaster (3:00) nor when dark as Foggy 
and Matt have a few beers, which I guess could be as early as 5:00 PM 
considering the time of year. What time of the day is it in part 2 of UX 
'00 when snow is seen?

If things don't work out though DD2 25 pages 17-22 don't need to happen right 
the next day after page 16, it could be a few days later. 

			*	*	*

Re: Would something like this work?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 16, 2002 at 21:47:59:
In Reply to: Would something like this work?
posted by Kevin  on December 16, 2002 at 09:26:53:

>> Would something like this work?

> It might be difficult to tell which sequences are clearly flashbacks.  Half 
the story is a flashback to one point or another. But, yeah, I could give you 
page numbers, or maybe tell what sequence it is in the comic. Does the above 
sample help?

> Did you need citation for the DD2 Analysis part 2, issues 20-25?  That's a 
fairly straightforward story, it's just complex in all it's details.  But the 
story happens linear, as opposed to this current DD storyarc.  

Antonio offered to give citations and comments for DD2 20-25, and that's 
fine.  As you guessed, what I really need are the citations for issues 26-37 
so I can wade through the comic writer's convoluted storytelling.  Your 
format above works for me.  Thanks!

--Paul

			*	*	*

Heres' pt. 3, complete with Citations!
Posted by Kevin  on December 18, 2002 at 14:39:49:
In Reply to: DD2 Analysis part 3, the conclusion!!!
posted by Kevin  on December 13, 2002 at 12:18:24:

Here's the timeline/Synopsis complete with citations.  I left the "Appearances" 
section in below, but while that sections okay, the citations included in the 
text below are a tad more accurate.  Hope this helps.

Synopsis/Timeline:  There are two long distant flashbacks, both of which may 
be topical:

DD2 #30, Pgs. 9-10 20 years:  A young Richard Fisk and Sammy Silke see for the 
first time what their fathers do for a living:  The see their dads killing 
someone.  They learn there fathers are  mobsters.  (If you guys have seen 
that movie Road to Perdition, its very much like that  scene where Tom Hanks 
kid discovers his dads a mobster).

12 years ago: DD2 #37, Pg. 1 In this quick flashback, we see Electra and Matt 
lying in bed together.  Matt comments that he wishes they would never leave 
this room, and stay like this forever.

I wonder:  Matt was dating Electra before he became Daredevil, and its been 
more than 10 years since FF #1, so does this make the reference of 12 years 
topical?<p>Now starts the current storyline, complete with Flashbacks:

3 months ago, (mid January):  DD2 #27, Pgs. 18-20 A newcomer to the Kingpins 
organization: Sammy Silke, joins the group.  He comes from Chicago, where his 
father is a leader of the Chicago mob.  Apparently, Mr. Silkes in exile 
cause of a screw up that messed up some of his dads business in Chicago.  
The night he joins the Kingpins crew, he meets them in a bar.  He also meets 
Richard Fisk, the Kingpins son, who he use to hang out with as a kid.  
Richard is sulking in a corner, nursing a beer, and refuses to talk to Silke.  

DD2 #29, Pgs. 5-8 A short time later, the Kingpin, (who is blind here) 
inducts Mr. Silke into his organization personally.  Kingpin says he and Mr. 
Silkes dad go way back, and hes happy to accept Mr. Silke into his group.  
Mr. Silke delivers a message from his father, asking that the Kingpin have 
someone kill a lawyer thats been causing trouble for Mr. Silkes business.  
It turns out that lawyer is Matt Murdock, who is suing a corporation for 
defective drug medication, which has poisoned several kids, (Matts suing 
on behalf of the families affected).  Mr. Silkes dad owns a portion of the 
companies profits, so since the case is tilting in Matts favor, Mr. Silkes 
dad wants him rubbed out.  Kingpin turns down his request.  Mr. Silke gets a 
little bewildered at Kingpins refusal, to which Kingpin turns around and 
chews him out for Mr. Silkes backtalk.

We the audience know why Kingpin doesnt send an assasin to kill Murdock: 
because he wants Murdock destroyed on his own terms, not for the needs of 
a rival Mob Boss based out in Chicago.

2 months ago, (mid February): DD2 #29, Pgs. 17-19  Mr. Silke and the rest 
of Kingpins inner circle are playing poker again.  Mr. Silke complains that 
he cant figure out why Kingpin refused his request to kill Matt Murdock.  
The rest of the crew seems hesitant to bring up the subject.  Richard Fisk, 
(who apparently still sits in the corner to himself and drinks) suddenly 
asks Silke to come and talk with him.  Richard explains to Mr. Silke that 
Matt Murdock is Daredevil.  It was supposed to be Kingpins own little secret, 
but Richard found out threw rummaging around his dads file, (or at least 
thats what the story hints).  Richards told all the rest of the crew, so 
they all know about Kingpins personal beef with Murdock. 

DD2 #30, Pgs. 5-8 Silke is stunned.  So why doesnt he just waste this 
Murdock.  The guys been a pain in his butt for year.  But theyre all 
silent.  Richard whispers to him that hes tried to rally them before, tried 
to lead, but he says they wont listen to me.  This makes sense.  Richard 
Fisk has adopted in the past the costumed identity of The Rose and has 
tried to usurp Kingpins organization before.  So Richard is planting now 
the seed of rebellion in Silkes head.

1 month ago, (mid March):  DD2 #30, Pgs. 11-19 Mr. Silke holds a secret 
meeting in Kingpins garage lot.  He convinces the others to help him kill 
the Kingpin, and that they would divide up the spoils of his empire among 
themselves.  Richard Fisk is there, rallying them to get behind Silkes idea.

They decide the best way to go about this is to make a bold proclomation, 
showing Kingpins no longer in control of his organization.  Everyone in 
New York in the underworld knows that Matt Murdock is not to be touched, 
by order of the Kingpin.  Well, the conspirators figure:  What better way 
to let everyone know that Kingpins days are through then by killing Murdock, 
and showing Fisk has no control over his own Empire.

DD2 #30, Pg 20 A short time later, we see Richard Fisk and Sammy Silke at 
a contact person store, informing him that Mr. Fisk wants the word put 
out, for a half a million dollar hit on Matt Murdocks head.  This contact 
person takes their word as if its the Kingpins word itself, and puts the 
news out to the underworld.

1 week ago, (April 6th):  DD2 #26, Pgs. 8-22 The case against that 
corporation, (referenced in the flashback to 3 months ago), ends on this 
date.  The jury rules in Murdocks favor, awarding his clients the hugest 
amount of liability money in the history of New York, (this is supposed to 
be like the lawsuits against the Tobacco companies in real life, yet here, 
the product seems to be from description, a legal form of Extacy, which 
this corporation was putting out on the street).

On his way out the courthouse, Matt and Foggy are surrounded by reporters, 
who are congradulating him on his success.  Then, a man in a trench coat 
appears, and blows himself up.  This is Nitro, the Human Bomb, a B Grade 
villian who runs away from the scene after detonating.  Matt checks on 
Foggy, who is wounded, then dons his costume and chases after Nitro.  

DD2 #27, Pgs. 3-10 He catches up to Nitro and beats the tar out of him.  A 
police cruiser pulls up and one of the officers, (a rookie) accidently fires 
at DD. DD dodges and the bullet hits Nitro.  DD flees the scene.

DD2 #27, Pgs. 11-14 A short time later:  We see Matt checking on Foggy in 
the hospital.  Its probably later that day, or possibly the next.  They 
discuss the assassination, and figure out that someone has specifically 
targetted Matt Murdock.  Their first suspect is the Kingpin.

DD2 #27, Pgs. 15-17 Matt pays a visit to the Kingpin in his parking garage 
a short time later.  Kingpin says he knows nothing of the assassination 
attempt.  Daredevil can tell hes telling the truth.  Mr. Silke is there, 
and he makes a quip about DD wearing his pajamas during the daytime.  DD 
smacks him silly and leaves.

A short time later, perhaps the following day:  DD2 #28, Pgs. 1-21. This is 
the Nuff Said issue We see Matt return to his office.  He finds on his desk 
a note from Electra. The note warns him that there is a half a million dollar 
bounty on his head. She writes that she has no idea who put up the bounty, 
but she warns Matt to stay alive.  He stands next to the window that she 
must have gone out.  Suddenly, he feels a red dot on his forehead.  He 
ducks.  Outside, we see the assassin known as Shotgun  aiming a sniper 
rifle at the window.  A few seconds later, DD appears and beats the tar out 
of Shotgun. DD then spots the villian Boomerang on a nearby rooftop.  
Apparently Boomerang was making his way over here to have a crack at the 
prize money as well.  DD beats the snot out of him as well, and turns him 
into the police.  In the crowd nearby, we see Bullseye watching DD with an 
evil grin.  He disapears into the crowd.

2 days ago, (April 11th):  DD2 #29, Pgs. 9-16 We see DD beating up some 
hoods in a bar, demanding who put the bounty on Murdocks head.  One of 
them tells  him its the Kingpin.  DD pays another visit to the Kingpin, 
sneaking into his private chambers.  He tells Kingpin hes learned that the 
price on Murdocks head was issued from here.  Kingpin says thats impossible...
but suddenly realises that one of his men might have acted without his 
authority.  DD realises this too, and comments looks like Im not the only 
one who needs to watch his back or something like that.

Today, (April 13):  DD2 #26, Pgs. 1-7~DD2 #27, pgs. 1-2 This is the Today 
seen in issue 26, the opening scene of this storyline.  Mr. Silke asks for a 
conference with the Kingpin.  Mr. Silke chews him out, then Kingpins men 
pull out daggers and stab him over and over, ala Julius Ceasar style.  

The next day, (April 14):  DD2 #27, Pg 21 Ben Urick is working at the Bugle 
when he gets word that the Kingpin is dead.  The news passes like wild fire 
through the ranks of the media.

DD2 #29, Pgs. 1-2 Vanessa Fisk, the Kingpins wife, is in her foreign resort 
in the Swiss Alps, when she hears about her husbands death, and immediately 
hops on a plane back to America.  I believe shes been seperated from her 
husband for quite some time, but now rushs to his aid.

DD2 #30, Pg 2 DD goes to Kingpins office, finds a pool of blood on the floor, 
but the place has been cleared out, like no one ever worked there.

DD2 #30, Pgs. 1, 3-4 DD and Ben Urick meet outside the Daily Bugle.  The 
discuss the possibility that the Kingpin might be dead.

The next day, (April 15):  DD2 #29, Pgs. 3-4 Vanessa Fisk arrives in New 
York. Shes taken by a loyal Kingpin attendant, (a Mr. Dini, who I believe 
is Fisks accountant) to Kingpins personal Crime Doctor.  Kingpin is shown 
in a coma.  Apparently Mr. Dini found Kingpin after Mr. Silke and company 
left him for dead.  Kingpin was barely alive, and now is in critical condition 
in a coma.  Vanessa asks Mr. Dini whos behind this attack.  She soon realizes 
that her own son Richard was a part of this attack.

This is BTS: we see Matt finding the body in DD2 #31, pgs. 8-9 Once Vanessa 
figures out whos behind this, she starts to take steps to get revenge. She 
starts by killing the man who put the word out for a hit on Matt Murdock.  

DD2 #31, Pgs. 5-9 That day, Daredevil and Ben Urick discuss who could be 
behind this attack on the Kingpin.  They conclude some of Kingpins own men 
were involved.  Daredevil investigates the place where a hit was put on on 
Matts life, and finds the guy who runs the joint dead.  He smells Vanessa 
Fisks lingering scent.

The next day, (April 16): DD2 #31, Pgs. 1-4  Sammy Silke and the gang 
celebrate victory.  Richard Fisk is shown all of a sudden to be remorseful, 
but hes still glad the Kingpins gone.  Hes getting drunk, while the others 
are living it up.    

DD2 #30, Pgs. 21 Vanessa Fisk has her husband moved out of the country by 
plane sometime this night. She confirms that her son was involved in the 
assassination attempt.

DD2 #31, Pgs. 10-16 Later that day, Richard Fisk heads home, only to find 
his mother Vanessa waiting for him.  She tells him she wishes she never gave 
birth to him, and that hes been nothing but a dissapointment.  She kills 
him with one shot to the head, and then leaves. Outside, she orders Mr. 
Dini to start a plan shes apparently had put together over the last day 
or so:  we see over the next few pages: over the next few hours, loyal 
Kingpin followers kill everyone involved in the assassination attempt.  

DD2 #31, Pgs. 17-18 Mr. Silke, for his part, is the last one they try to 
kill.  Hes heading back to his apartment with a prostitue on his arm, when 
he discovers some assassins on the inside.  He narrowly avoids their bullets, 
(the prostitute ends up killed though), and jumps out a window and down an 
alley.  

DD2 #31, Pg 19Later that night, we see Mr. Silke calling up his dad in 
Chicago, asking to be bailed out.  His father is apparently appalled that 
Mr. Silke had the gall to try to kill the Kingpin, and basically tells him 
to not come home to Chicago.  Mr. Silkes a dead man walking, and his father 
wants nothing to do with him.

DD2 #31, Pgs. 21-22 A short time later that night, we see Mr. Silke turning 
himself into the FBI, (I suppose its possible he turned himself into the 
police, but the FBI has him when we next see Mr. Silke).  He asks for 
protection.  The FBI laugh at him, saying if he wants protection, he has to 
rat out his dad, the crimeboss in Chicago.  He refuses, and they start to 
take him to jail, but he knows hell be killed in prison, so he tries 
something else:  he tells the FBI that he knows who Daredevil is.

The next day, (April 17): DD2 #32, Pgs. 1-19  The story cuts to later that 
night at 3:00 am.  The two FBI agents who questioned Mr. Silke have called 
in their superior officer, who they discuss all the recent events with.  
There is a whole issue dedicated to this meeting, where the FBI go over the 
Kingpin events, and figure out that Vanessa Fisk must be running things 
right now.  They also reveal that theyve just learned that earlier that 
night, Vanessa had the Kingpin moved out of the country.  

They then tell their boss that theyve taken what Silke told them and have 
concluded that there is a very strong chance that Daredevil is Matt Murdock, 
the blind guy.  They also point out that theyve learned SHIELD has files on 
Matt Murdock that theyre not sharing with the FBI.  The FBI boss tells the 
two agents to sit on the information, and to not discuss it with anyone else.  
Apparently the boss thinks DDs okay in his book, and just doesnt want 
anything else to be done about it.  He tells them to throw the book at Mr. 
Silke, unless he sells out his dad.

DD2 #33, Pgs. 6-10 The story cuts to later, around 7 am that morning.  We 
see one of those two FBI agents heading home, where we see him having a 
fight with his girlfriend/possibly wife.  She has to head to work, and he 
just got in.  Shes bitter, and also complains about their lack of money.  
She walks off in a huff, saying she cant be late for work because if she 
loses this job, they wont be able to pay their bills.

DD2 #33, Pgs. 11-17 Later that day, after I suspect the FBI agent has slept, 
we see him casing Murdocks lawfirm.  He looks up and sees the Black Widow 
jumping down on Matts roof.  The Black Widow apparently looks into Matts 
window, sees he is gone, and jumps away.  The FBI agent goes back to the 
office and does some research into DD and Black Widows relationship.  He 
becomes more convinced that DD is indeed Matt Murdock.

DD2 #33, Pg 18 He then makes a choice. He calls up the Daily Globe, the other 
prominent New York Newspaper rivaling the Daily Bugle.  He offers info in 
exchange for money, (to help him and his girlfriend).

The Next Day, (April 18th, 2002):  DD2 #32, Pgs. 20-22 The story cuts to the 
next day, when we see Foggy picking up his morning paper at the newspaper 
stand. His jaw drops, and he runs away.  We see the headline:  Globe 
Exclusive:  Pulp Hero of Hells Kitchen is Blind Lawyer  complete with 
pics of DD and Matt Murdock.

DD2 #33, Pgs. 1-5, 19-22 then DD2 #34, Pgs. 11-22 The news spreads like 
wildfire.  Matt wakes up late that morning, (probably out patroling last 
night). He wakes up to find reporters all over his front doorstep.  Foggy 
rushes in, and they spend the better part of the day wondering how this 
happened.  Foggy warns Matt that its probably time to hang up the costume.  
If he keeps the costume up forever, they can deny, deny, deny that hes 
Daredevil, and he wont go to jail.  He also warns that people keep dying 
in Matts life because he keeps putting on that costume, Karen included!

DD2 #34, Pgs. 1-10 Meanwhile, J. Jonah Jameson is having a press meeting 
with his reporters over at the Daily Bugle.  Hes furious that another 
newspaper beat him to this story.  He wants all his staff on this story 
now, and he wants every single piece of Murdocks life turned upside down, 
to confirm that hes DD.  Ben Urick, who had been sitting peacefully at the 
meeting, suddenly bursts out Hes not Daredevil!  Peter Parker barges into 
the room at that exact moment, and says the exact same thing.

Jameson asks How do you know. Urick says Cause I know who DD is, but Im 
not going to tell you  and Parker echoes that sentiment.  Jameson demands 
to know, but Ben says hes not going to let Jameson slander whoevers behind 
the mask, saying that these heroes do the public good, and the least we can 
do is leave them alone.  Jameson tells them both to get out, (and basically 
fires Urick, he cant fire Parker though, hes a freelance agent).

DD2 #34, Pgs. 11-22.The narration of Foggy talking to Matt is the words 
shown, (telling him to give up DD) but the action shows DD jumping across 
rooftops. Matt, meanwhile, is still reeling from all this, and he doesnt 
heed Foggys advice, and puts on the costume and leaves through the roof 
that night.  

DD2 #35, Pgs. 1-8 He jumps around some more roofs, spots a muggin taking 
place, and catches the crook.  A nearby witness asks DD what color the shirt 
hes wearing is.  DD rushes off, and the civilians nearby take note he didnt 
answer.  So maybe he is blind they wonder.

DD2 #35, Pgs. 9-18 Matt heads back towards his office, only to find it under 
assault now from Mr. Hyde.  Mr. Hyde was represented in court by Murdock a 
few years back, and now Mr. Hyde wants revenge.  Spiderman shows up to lend 
a hand, and together, him and DD beat the tar out of Mr. Hyde. Then the two 
superheros rush off into the night.

26 days later, (May 14th):  DD2 #35, Pgs. 19-20 The story cuts to show Matt 
and Foggy talking privately in their office with Ben Urick.  Matt says he 
just got back from Japan.  Apparently hes been in hiding for a month, doing 
a great deal of soul searching.  He tells Ben that their relationship is 
going to have to end now, and hints that Ben must never speak to him as a 
confident of DD again, and warns its for the good of everyone  He says 
hes holding a press conference tomorrow.

The  Next Day, (May 15):  DD2 #3, Pgs. 21-22, then DD2 #36, Pgs. 1-4 Matt 
holds his press conference.  He gives a speech, and says that he IS NOT 
DAREDEVIL.  He says he is going to sue the Daily Globe, and its publisher, 
a Mr. Rosenthal, for millions of dollars in damages for slander and 
emotional and reputation damage.

3 Weeks later, (June 5, or early June):  DD2 #36, Pgs. 5-13 If we takes the 
3 weeks later caption to be percise, then its June 5th.  But it could be 
anyday in early June.

The Black Widow pays a visit to Matt at his law office. Matt has bodyguards 
outside his office, including Luke Cage, and that woman from Alias.  She 
enters Matts office to find him on the phone saying to someone  of the 
Press I dont know why the Globe would make up such a story.  Widow urges 
Matt to go put his costume on and let them jump around on some roofs.  Matt 
sternly denies her, and shows her the door.  Widow goes and talks to Foggy, 
and he tells her to leave him alone.  She warns Foggy that hes in denial, 
and then we see her placing a personal phone call, using a SHIELD priority 
code.  Shes got an idea of how to bread Matt out of his funk.

DD2 #36, Pgs. 14-16 That night, Matt goes and has a private dinner with 
Vanessa Fisk, in the Fisk Towers.  Vanessa says shes leaving America, 
and that shes sold Fisk Towers to Donald Trump.  She says that the Kingpin 
is still in a coma, and gives Matt a gift:  a card with the name of the FBI 
agent who sold his identity to the newspaper.  Shes apparently discovered 
this through her underworld contacts.  Matt, before he leaves, offers his 
condolenses on the death of her son Richard.  She remains emotionless.  I 
bet Matt figured out what happened to Richard Fisk.

DD2 #36, Pgs. 17-21 then DD2 #37 pgs. 2-6 Later that night, when he gets 
home, he senses a familiar presence on the roof. He climbs up to find 
Electra there.  She says she got an urgent phone call from a SHIELD agent 
warning Matt was in danger.  She quickly realizes shes been duped.  Matt 
mumbles that he has everything under control, but before Electra leaves, 
he mumbles that he wishes he and Electra never left that room they shared 
12 years ago, (and we see a flashback to that scene).  Electras heart 
doesnt skip a beat, and she leaves.  Matt kicks himself for being sentimental.

The Next Day, (June 6th):  DD2 #37, Pgs. 7-9 Mr. Rosenthal, the publisher of 
the Daily Globe, sends a lawyer over to chat with Foggy and Matt.  The lawyer 
chews Matt out, saying theyre going to countersue Matt and Foggy for all 
their worth, and prove that Matt is DD.  Foggy kicks the lawyer out of the 
office. Matt just stares at the card that Vanessa Fisk gave him.

DD2 #37, Pgs. 10-12 That night, DD pays a visit to the window of the FBI 
agent who sold him out.  Alls he does is stand outside the window, and the 
FBI agent looks up and sees him, pulls his gun trembling with fear.  He 
mutters to himself How do you know? over and over...

The Next day, (June 7th), or possibly a few days later:  The time is 
unspecified for once. DD2 #37, Pgs. 13-21  Matt and Foggy are at the Daily 
Globes offices, conducting a meeting with Mr. Rosenthal, (who is some 
sort of Ted Turner-esque media mogul).  Mr. Rosenthal has a new lawyer 
there, saying that theyve let the other one go, (I suspect for being to 
harsh yesterday, yet now we see why):  Mr. Rosenthal says that his lawyers 
are saying there is no way the case can go forward now, (thats because the 
FBI source wont back up his claim now that hes scared into hiding). 
Rosenthals lawyer offers a settlement of 10 million dollars.  Murdock asks 
for 200 million and a front page apology.  They eventually negotiate to 
settle for 75 million and a small snipet on the lowerfront page apology.  
Murdock gets up with a smile to leave the office, and taps his cane on the 
ground like a blind man would.  Right before he exits the door, Mr. 
Rosenthal says Deals off, in a sudden burst of anger.  Murdock turns back 
to him asking why?  Rosenthal says Cause you knew exactly what money figure 
Id agree on.  Like you sensed where Id draw the line.  Furthermore, I know 
for a fact your Daredevil, that tapping the cane cant fool me.  And if 
theres one thing I dont like, its being called a liar.  I may lose this 
trial, but Im going to give it my all, and by God Im going to prove youre 
Daredevil.  Thats what he basically says.  The story closes with us the 
audience knowing that the Trial of the Century is coming soon.

			*	*	*

Re: Heres' pt. 3, complete with Citations!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 19, 2002 at 07:20:39:
In Reply to: Heres' pt. 3, complete with Citations!
posted by Kevin  on December 18, 2002 at 14:39:49:

This is great, Kevin!  Very helpful.  Now I need to go to work and see how 
these citations might be worked into the calendar.  I may have a few questions 
as I go along, but I'll see what I can come up with.

Paul

			*	*	*

ION...IRIDIA...IRON FIST
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 14, 2002 at 07:55:38:

new entries marked **

ION/
MM 15
CA 389
CA 390
**CA 391 (Pg 4: to the right from Princess Python)

IRIDIA [INHUMAN]
INH 12
**A@ 12
XF@ 2

IRON FIST/DANIEL RAND
PM&IF 120
**SWII 9 
N 23-FB
N 22

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece 
of information engineering! 

			*	*	*

Marvels oldest surviving characters
Posted by TheSubmariner on December 16, 2002 at 06:41:32:

Who is Marvels oldest still surviving character? I know Namor was introduced 
in Motion Picture Funnies 1, and the Human Torch in Marvel Comics 1 and Cap 
America in CA 1. Are one of them the longest running characters? Do you have 
the dates of their premiers?

			*	*	*

Re: Marvels oldest surviving characters
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 16, 2002 at 07:52:52:
In Reply to: Marvels oldest surviving characters
posted by TheSubmariner on December 16, 2002 at 06:41:32:

As I recall, Namor and the Golden Age Human Torch both debuted in the same 
issue, making them joint oldest characters.  Obviously, that's assuming you 
don't count characters like Dracula who are based on pre-1939 books that 
Marvel (and its predecessor Timely) had no connection with.

			*	*	*

Re: Marvels oldest surviving characters
Posted by BobMM on December 16, 2002 at 11:16:46:
In Reply to: Re: Marvels oldest surviving characters
posted by Paul O'Brien on December 16, 2002 at 07:52:52:

Technically, Namor is older. His MARVEL COMICS #1 appearance is an edited 
reprint of an earlier promotional funnybook. 

			*	*	*

Also, the original Angel....
Posted by Spirit of 76/Ron Flick on December 17, 2002 at 14:58:31:
In Reply to: Marvels oldest surviving characters
posted by TheSubmariner on December 16, 2002 at 06:41:32:

The original Golden Age Angel was in Marvel Comics #1, as well.  He has been 
featured in a handful of modern stories.

Other Golden Age characters that have been accepted into Marvel continuity 
that are older than Captain America include...

Red Raven
Mercury/Hurricane
Toro
Thin Man
Black Marvel
Blazing Skull
The Terror
The Destroyer
The Vision

There are a handful of other Golden Age heroes who came later and who are 
considered in continuity.  Let me know if you want a rundown.

Ron Flick

			*	*	*

Re: Also, the original Angel....
Posted by David Smith on December 19, 2002 at 08:18:56:
In Reply to: Also, the original Angel....
posted by Spirit of 76/Ron Flick on December 17, 2002 at 14:58:31:

> The original Golden Age Angel was in Marvel Comics #1, as well.  He has 
been featured in a handful of modern stories.

Not to mention the origional Golden Age Ka-zar. He was also in Marvel Comics 
#1 as well as pre-dated it via the pulps.

			*	*	*

Re: Also, the original Angel....
Posted by Sean Curtin on December 19, 2002 at 13:15:04:
In Reply to: Re: Also, the original Angel....
posted by David Smith on December 19, 2002 at 08:18:56:

> Not to mention the origional Golden Age Ka-zar. He was also in Marvel 
Comics #1 as well as pre-dated it via the pulps.

Although the existence of the Silver Age Ka-Zar with nary a mention of the 
GA KZ suggests that the original Ka-Zar is probably non-canon (and for the 
best, IMHO; he wasn't a particularly original Tarzan rip-off).

--
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

That KaZar guy...
Posted by Ron Flick on December 19, 2002 at 16:17:52:
In Reply to: Re: Also, the original Angel....
posted by Sean Curtin on December 19, 2002 at 13:15:04:

Just curious...Has any modern Marvel comic, presumably any modern KaZar 
comic, ever even mentioned the original KaZar?  

The only case I know for admitting the original KaZar into modern continuity 
is his appearance in the epic battle portrayed in Human Torch #5, reprinted 
under the "Timely Presents" title a few years ago.  That story is accepted 
into the Marvel canon, since it has been referred to on a few occasions, 
specifically in Sub-Mariner's various origin stories and the Sagas of the 
Sub-Mariner and Human Torch.

It is a bit of a stretch, I realize, in admitting an obscure character.

Anal-retentive, continuity-freak Ron

			*	*	*

Re: That KaZar guy...
Posted by David Smith on December 20, 2002 at 07:31:11:
In Reply to: That KaZar guy...
posted by Ron Flick on December 19, 2002 at 16:17:52:

Other than the case you mention, I can't think of one.

As an addition bit of trivial, the GA Ka-zar didn't, IIRC, go by the name 
Ka-zar (that was just the name of the strip) his name was David Rand and 
his lion companion was named Zar.

			*	*	*

About the Golden Age Ka-Zar
Posted by Dimadick on December 21, 2002 at 11:03:23:
In Reply to: Re: That KaZar guy...
posted by David Smith on December 20, 2002 at 07:31:11:

  You can find some info on David Rand/Ka-Zar and his origin in the 
following link.:

http://home.attbi.com/~cjh5801a/Ka-Zar.htm

The site ,dedicated to pulp heroes, also contains the text of Ka-Zar's 
first story "King of Fang and Claw"-1936.See if the character holds any 
interest to you or reraly deserves his obscurity:

http://home.attbi.com/~cjh5801a/Ka-Zar_1036_TOC.htm

			*	*	*

Spiderman - Original
Posted by Tony Soper on December 17, 2002 at 12:56:04:

How does the ending of The (original)Amazing Spiderman work?  The "last 
chronological appearance is listed as PPSM2#34. Is this right before the 
rewrite of the origin in the Ultimate Spiderman or what?  I know there was 
a minor rewrite of the origin when the ASM2 and PPSM2 series came out.  Is 
this just ignored?  Thanks.

			*	*	*

Re: Spiderman - Original
Posted by Jeph! on December 17, 2002 at 13:12:54:
In Reply to: Spiderman - Original
posted by Tony Soper on December 17, 2002 at 12:56:04:

> The "last chronological appearance is listed as PPSM2#34.

All that means is, that's the most recent book Russ has gotten around to 
putting on the site.  Peter Parker: Spider-Man #35-51 will follow, 
eventually.  Be patient -- the MCP works slowly but it works well.

>Is this right before the rewrite of the origin in the Ultimate Spiderman 
or what?

Nope -- the Ultimate books are ignored here.  We follow the original Marvel 
Universe's version of Spider-Man.

> I know there was a minor rewrite of the origin when the ASM2 and PPSM2 
series came out.  Is this just ignored?  Thanks.

If you're referring to "Spider-Man: Chapter One", then yeah, it's pretty 
much ignored.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Spiderman - Original
Posted by Tony Soper on December 17, 2002 at 16:49:27:
In Reply to: Re: Spiderman - Original
posted by Jeph! on December 17, 2002 at 13:12:54:

Thanks for the clarification.

			*	*	*

Re: Spiderman - Original
Posted by Dimadick on December 18, 2002 at 11:04:44:
In Reply to: Re: Spiderman - Original
posted by Tony Soper on December 17, 2002 at 16:49:27:

  You can find information on both the original and the Ultimate version in 
the "Spider-Fan" page which deals ,or at least tries to deal, with any 
appearance and version of the character since 1962.Quite informative:

http://www.spiderfan.org/

			*	*	*

Re: Spiderman - Original
Posted by Tony Soper on December 18, 2002 at 11:51:54:
In Reply to: Re: Spiderman - Original
posted by Dimadick on December 18, 2002 at 11:04:44:

That link is QUITE cool.  Not as cool as the Chronology Project but a great 
supplement.  Thanks

			*	*	*

further clarification on Vol 2?
Posted by Tony Soper on December 17, 2002 at 17:44:43:
In Reply to: Re: Spiderman - Original
posted by Jeph! on December 17, 2002 at 13:12:54:

So the Peter Parker in, say ASM2#50 or PPSM2#51, has some vague recollection 
of who Gwen Stacy was?  The monthly comics are sticking with the Volume 1 
realities, and the rewritten origin has NOTHING to do with the regular 
Volume 2 comics?

Obviously I have not been reading Volume 2 :)  Thanks for your help.

			*	*	*

Re: further clarification on Vol 2?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 17, 2002 at 20:07:04:
In Reply to: further clarification on Vol 2?
posted by Tony Soper on December 17, 2002 at 17:44:43:

Yes, volume #1 of ASM is canon, as is volume #2.  Just think of volume #2 as 
a continuation of volume #1 (in fact, you can see the old volume #1 numbering 
convention continued on the covers of volume #2).  Spidey has much more than 
a vague recollection of Gwen.  Ultimate series and rewritten origin series 
("retcons") are not canon.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: further clarification on Vol 2?
Posted by Tony Soper on December 17, 2002 at 21:43:31:
In Reply to: Re: further clarification on Vol 2?
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 17, 2002 at 20:07:04:

That is good.  Thanks. 

			*	*	*

Re: further clarification on Vol 2?
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 20, 2002 at 03:41:28:
In Reply to: further clarification on Vol 2?
posted by Tony Soper on December 17, 2002 at 17:44:43:

> So the Peter Parker in, say ASM2#50 or PPSM2#51, has some vague recollection 
of who Gwen Stacy was?  The monthly comics are sticking with the Volume 1 
realities, and the rewritten origin has NOTHING to do with the regular 
Volume 2 comics?

Yes.

Ultimate Spider-Man takes place in a completely separate continuity (which 
it shares with the other Ultimate titles).  It's not even a reboot, as 
such - it's just off to the side somewhere, completely disconnected from the 
mainstream Marvel Universe.

Spider-Man: Chapter One is a little more complicated since, originally, it 
WAS intended to revise the character's origin.  However, since John Byrne 
and Howard Mackie left the Spider-Man titles, Marvel appear to have adopted 
a clear line that Chapter One did not happen.  The book is generally viewed 
as not having been a success, and Marvel would prefer not to talk about it 
if possible.

The three mainstream Spider-Man titles - Amazing, Peter Parker and Tangled 
Web - take place in the same continuity that's been running since Amazing 
Fantasy #15.

			*	*	*

IRON MAN...IRON MAN IV...ISIS
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 18, 2002 at 16:38:26:

new entries marked **

IRON MAN/TONY STARK
AWC 55
**ASPOT 29/2  (as to placementA 320/2 is after CA 371 (as per Michael 
OBrians chronology)  which (as per  Captains Americas chronology) is 
sometime after CAs appearance in ASPOT 29/2. So I positioned this entry 
prior to the A 320/2-BTS entry) 
A 320/2-BTS
IM 253

IRON MAN IV/JAMES R. "JIM" "RHODEY" RHODES
M/SHSW 12
A 243
ASM 252
A 243
ASM 252
A 243 ~ IM 182
IM 182
A 243
**FF 265 (Iron Man flying out of central park at speed)
COH 3
IM 182
COH 3

I can't be sure of where the intended breaks are in some of the above (indeed, 
I could only find 3 panels in A 243 with Iron Man in them but there are 4 
citations) but this is my best stab.

ISIS
T 239
T 240
T 241
**M/TIO 23

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece 
of information engineering! 

			*	*	*

Older heroes
Posted by Dimadick on December 21, 2002 at 12:10:35:

  The recent discussion about Marvel's earlier heroes seems to proove that 
there is at least a minor interest in them.For those of you who share this 
interest you could check the following links:

1)Jess Nevin's "Guide to Marvel's Golden Age Characters".Includes those 
heroes who appeared on stories published between 1939 and the 1950's.The 
profiles include list of appearances ,bio and naturaly Jess's evaluation 
of the characters:

http://www.geocities.com/ratmmjess/gaguide.html

2)Jess Nevin's "Guide to Marvel's Pre-Fantastic Four #1 Heroes".It includes 
heroes that appeared in stories published after 1961 but are established to 
have acted before that year..The same stands for this profiles too:

http://www.geocities.com/ratmmjess/toc.html

3)The Handbook to Marvel:The Lost Generation Universe.It includes profiles 
and appearances for characters acting before the FF#1.Besides "the Lost 
Generation", there are profiles on many older Gods, heroes and villains 
acting from antiquity till the modern age:

http://www.vortex.bridgwater.ac.uk/mtlg/handbook-toc.htm

4)Robert Wick's "Chronology to the Marvel Universe".No profiles but it deals 
with the history of this Universe between its birth and FF#1.Partly based 
on info from the printed material and partly on Robert's own speculations:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7160/wicksint.html

5)The "Appendix to the Handbook of the Marvel Handbook" has a list of 
obscure characters based on the eras they lived.12 eras until the "Modern Age".
Each era has links to profile of the characters including a bio and a 
chronological list of appearances and some comments:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/appera.htm

Hopefuly those links can help those of you interested in the past of the 
Marvel Universe before the FF#1.

			*	*	*

IZANAMI II...JACK FROST...CELIA JACKSON 
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 22, 2002 at 09:05:06:

new entries marked **

IZANAMI II
DD 307
(DD 308 I am not seeing Izanami in DD 308)
**DD 309

JACK FROST/
M/PRM 30
>>>   M/TIO@ 1   <<<
INV 35-FB
Jack Frost currently has a listing for M/TIO@ 1. But no entry for M/TIO 20 
which is a direct continuation of M/TIO@ 1.  The Liberty Legion and their 
Axis enemies all appear in both issues. These tales have to do with alternate 
time line stuff so I leave it to sharper minds to determine if they belong 
in MCP, but if one does, do does the other.

Similar entries (i.e. already listed in M/TIO@ 1 but not M/TIO 20): Red 
Raven,Thin man

Entered under neither: Miss America, Patriot, Whizzer, Sky Shark, U-Man, 
Master Man, Brain Drain (Brain Drain and U-Man have reference notes to their 
earlier Invaders appearance)

Already entered under both: Blue Diamond 

Plus a cameo of a young Johnny Romita in M/TIO@ 1

JACKSON, CELIA
**BG 2
**BG 4
BG 5

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent 
piece of information engineering!

			*	*	*

The song that never ends?
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 23, 2002 at 21:39:49:

I'll preface this post by saying that it is not intended to offend, 
undermine, or otherwise step on toes.

Primarily, this is directed to the Administrator, Russ.

Ever since the launch of the Ultimate line of books, there has been talk 
among fandom of it eventually replacing standard 'Mainstream' Marvel 
continuity.  I, for one, doubt this will happen.  Nevertheless, for the 
sake of arguement, let's say it did.  Or, for the purpose of this discussion, 
in some freak manner, say Marvel closed up shop permanently and called it a 
day.

Let us also say that, with a lack of new material to compile, the MCP, at 
some point down the line, actually *fulfills* its mission of chronologizing 
everything.  What then?  Has this been something you've ever considered, 
Russ?  Perhaps I'm playing Devil's advocate here, but I'm genuinely curious 
as to what might come next.  You've made a commitment to this work and I 
can relate to how consuming webmastering can be.

At the other extreme, the MCP might potentially go on for decades.  This 
work would continue to swell with no end in sight.  What then?  Would you, 
Russ, call it a day at some point?  Or would you pass the torch?

I suppose, it being the end of the year, I'm more introspective than usual, 
but I think it's a good thing to try to extrapolate the future.  Even if 
I'm way off.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: The song that never ends?
Posted by Administrator on December 24, 2002 at 15:51:16:
In Reply to: The song that never ends?
posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 23, 2002 at 21:39:49:

Well, this is pretty sombre for the holidays...

> Ever since the launch of the Ultimate line of books, there has been talk 
among fandom of it eventually replacing standard 'Mainstream' Marvel 
continuity.  I, for one, doubt this will happen.  Nevertheless, for the 
sake of arguement, let's say it did.  Or, for the purpose of this discussion, 
in some freak manner, say Marvel closed up shop permanently and called it a 
day.

> Let us also say that, with a lack of new material to compile, the MCP, at 
some point down the line, actually *fulfills* its mission of chronologizing 
everything.  What then?  Has this been something you've ever considered, 
Russ?  Perhaps I'm playing Devil's advocate here, but I'm genuinely curious 
as to what might come next.  You've made a commitment to this work and I can 
relate to how consuming webmastering can be.

Yes, I've considered it. I gave it a lot of thought when Marvel filed for 
bankruptcy. For a while, it seemed almost likely that the characters would 
be auctioned off.

For the time being, I'll just point out that our url, chronologyproject.com, 
does not chain us to the Marvel Universe, or even comics. It's not impossible 
that something else is already on the site.

> At the other extreme, the MCP might potentially go on for decades.  This 
work would continue to swell with no end in sight.  What then?  Would you, 
Russ, call it a day at some point?  Or would you pass the torch?

I don't picture the Project ever disappearing, unless Marvel tells us to 
shut it down. If I were to give it up, I think too many small sites would 
try to pick up where I left off, and I'm not sure I'd like that. I think 
there needs to be one central repository. If I ever lost interest, or were 
otherwise unable to continue, I would pass the torch, to keep the project 
alive.

In fact, protocols are in place to keep the project alive, if I were to die 
tomorrow.

			*	*	*

The show must go on.
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 24, 2002 at 21:22:30:
In Reply to: Re: The song that never ends?
posted by Administrator on December 24, 2002 at 15:51:16:

Thanks for the response, Russ.  I'm impressed, but shouldn't be surprised, 
by your foresight.

The plot thickens...

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

The Final Appearence of Jarella??
Posted by captamr on December 24, 2002 at 11:36:45:

The Project lists H2 246 as Jarella's last appearence. As I look through 
the issue, there are flashbacks (I still have problems with those as my 
previous posts allude to) but they contain no new scenes or events and 
summarize Jarella's death in H2 246. So... her appearence in H2 246 must 
be referring to her dead corpse. Fine!...I agree that that counts as an 
appearence - dead or alive! Stay with me now...

H2 240 has Hulk finding out through old Des's (actually Tyrannus an old 
Mole Man wanna be)crystal ball that Jarella's body (shown pg. 17) is 
actually preserved at Gamma Base. Hulk now wants to return Jarella's body 
to her homeworld for burial.

H2 245 picks up the story arc with the Hulk attacking Gamma Base to find 
Jarella also thought of by the Hulk in a memory picture (pg. 27). If this 
doesn't constitute an appearence then at least a BTS category (yet again 
I'm venturing in areas I think I'm just starting to understand).

H2 246, H2 247, and H2 248 conclude the return of Jarella's corpse to her 
homeworld for burial.

My suggested new entries are:
H2 204
H2 205
H2 240** (new entry designation borrowed from Arthur Stein)
H2 245**
H2 246
H2 247**
H2 248**

Happy Holidays to all,

Charlie

			*	*	*

Yellowjacket (Rita DeMara) in Guardians of The Galaxy
Posted by Brian Cook on December 24, 2002 at 18:36:05:

I trying to find out which issues of GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY feature 
appearances by Yellowjacket II.

If anyone can help, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

			*	*	*

Re: Yellowjacket (Rita DeMara) in Guardians of The Galaxy
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 24, 2002 at 21:28:56:
In Reply to: Yellowjacket (Rita DeMara) in Guardians of The Galaxy<
posted by Brian Cook on December 24, 2002 at 18:36:05:

According to my records, Rita's chrono should be as follows:

A 264
A 271
A 273
A 274
A 275
A 276
A 277
SOLOA 12/2
A @ 17
CA 349-BTS
CA 389
CA 390
CA 391
GOTG 28
GOTG 29
GOTG 30-BTS
GOTG 32-BTS
GOTG 33
GOTG 34 ~ GOTG 35
GOTG 36
GOTG 37
GOTG 38
GOTG 39
GOTG @ 3
GOTG 46/2
THOR CORPS 3
GOTG 40
GOTG 41
GOTG 42
GOTG 43
GOTG 44
GOTG 45
GOTG 46
GOTG 47
GOTG 48-BTS?
GOTG 49
GOTG 50
GOTG @ 4
GOTG 51
GOTG 52
GOTG 53
GOTG 54
GOTG 55
GOTG 56
GOTG 57
GOTG 58
GOTG 60/2
GOTG @ 4/2-FB

As I understand, the appearances during TIMESLIDE where she was killed were 
an alternate reality version of Rita.  This would be so because, even though 
she left the Guardians to go back in time in GOTG 60/2, @ 4 says that she 
eventually returned to the future.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Correction
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 28, 2002 at 09:52:24:
In Reply to: Re: Yellowjacket (Rita DeMara) in Guardians of The Galaxy
posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 24, 2002 at 21:28:56:

Yellowjacket II's final chronological appearance was GOTG 50/2-FB, not GOTG 
@ 4/2-FB.  Narrarated by Ulig, the last Watcher, this is a single panel that 
shows Rita embracing Hank Pym to unsuccessfully persuade him to return with 
her to the future.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: Correction
Posted by Brian Cook on December 28, 2002 at 22:57:28:
In Reply to: Correction
posted by StAkAr Karnak on December 28, 2002 at 09:52:24:

Thanks for the information!

			*	*	*

JAILBAIT...JAKAL...JOHN JAMESON
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 26, 2002 at 10:33:59:

new entries marked **

JAILBAIT/JESS
H2 366
**H2 367
H2 397

JAKAL
**PP 16
**PP 17
**PP 23
**PP 24
**PP 25
PP:PP 1

JAMESON, COL. JOHN
A 319/2
**A 322/2   (seated at table with Jarvis and Michael OBrien viewed on 
security monitor and identified by Peggy Carter, Pg 27)
A 323/2

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent 
piece of information engineering!

			*	*	*

PPSM2 33
Posted by Antonio Gavio on December 30, 2002 at 15:27:00:

Hey Paul: 

          I just realized that you have been placing PPSM2 33 in May because 
in the official index to ASM Uncle Ben's death is said to happen in "early 
spring", but shouldn't that mean late March or April? May is more the middle 
of the spring. In fact, ASM 181 (wich also happens on the anniversary of 
Uncle Ben's death) occurs before MTU 69 wich is said to happen in early 
April. More to that effect, in PPSM2 33 there's a sign (only half of it is 
seen) that reads:
   WELCOME ...
   OPENING ...
wich could pretty well be WELCOME TO OPENING DAY. This would place the 
anniversary of Uncle Ben's death on the 1st or 2nd of April or even March 
31st since a lot of times that's when teams start their season. Take a look 
at it.

			*	*	*

Re: PPSM2 33
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 31, 2002 at 09:38:48:
In Reply to: PPSM2 33
posted by Antonio Gavio on December 30, 2002 at 15:27:00:

You are quite correct, Antonio.  I don't know where I got that May placement 
from.  Given the fact that ASM 181 (another anniversary of Uncle Ben's death) 
occurs before MTU 59 and that MTU 69 is in early April (with the last New 
York snowfall of the season), ASM 181 occurs sometime in March, probably 
before spring officially begins.  Thanks for catching that opening day 
reference (good eye!) -- it actually helps with a March placement -- at 
least I hope it does. Perhaps this is an exhibition game before the real 
season starts?  I don't follow baseball, so I'll need some help here. 

I've taken your comments and, with the recent notes on Daredevil, revised 
the Spidey chronology for the past Marvel year that I've been working on, 
in preparation for a new edition of the calendar.  I can e-mail this to you 
if you like, Antonio.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: PPSM2 33
Posted by Antonio Gavio on December 31, 2002 at 12:58:05:
In Reply to: Re: PPSM2 33
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 31, 2002 at 09:38:48:

> Perhaps this is an exhibition game before the real season starts?  I 
don't follow baseball, so I'll need some help here. 

By Peter's narrative it sounds like this is an official game, and there 
would be no reason for the 'opening day' sign to be there if it was an 
exhibition game. Baseball season starts in April for most teams, but 
sometimes they have their first game on the 31st of March, even the 30th 
but not earlier than that.

> I've taken your comments and, with the recent notes on Daredevil, revised 
the Spidey chronology for the past Marvel year that I've been working on, 
in preparation for a new edition of the calendar.  I can e-mail this to you 
if you like, Antonio.

Sure thing, send them in.

			*	*	*

ASM2 #1
Posted by Michael Kaiser on December 30, 2002 at 16:05:11:

Does Captain America appear in this issue?  I've had a few people tell me 
"no", yet it is listed under Cap's chronology.  Can someone clarify one way 
or the other?

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Re: ASM2 #1
Posted by Arthur  Stein on December 30, 2002 at 17:34:24:
In Reply to: ASM2 #1
posted by Michael Kaiser on December 30, 2002 at 16:05:11:

YES he does appear. pgs 7-9

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J. JONAH JAMESON...EDWIN JARVIS...RICK JONES
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 30, 2002 at 23:15:04:

new entries marked **

JAMESON, J. JONAH
FF 242
**FF 243
PPTSS 66 

JARVIS, EDWIN
T 234
A 137
**CM 40  (I really dont have any solid indication just where this falls. It 
takes place on a sunny Thursday afternoon just prior to Captain Marvels 
departure from Earth for the Kree empire. )
A 140
A 141
..  ..  ..  ..
A 319/2
**A 322/2   (seated at table with John Jameson and Michael OBrien viewed 
on security monitor and identified by Peggy Carter, Pg 27)
A 323/2

JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE "RICK"
CM 32
**CM 33  (pg 6 panels 2-3 shows Rick talking back to Thanos and then banging 
the negabands together, so its not part of the referback to previous issues)
CM 34

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent 
piece of information engineering! 

			*	*	*

Hate Monger Entries
Posted by Dave Harszlak on December 31, 2002 at 14:15:19:

  I may be nit-picking here, but the Hate Monger which appeared in Captain 
America (Vol 3) #'s 25 thru 27 was the SECOND clone of Adoplh Hitler, and 
not the first one who died.  Thus, technically this makes him the sixth 
different Hate Monger, and those Captain America Vol 3 appearances should 
be attributed to him separately and not to Hate Monger I.

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Re: Hate Monger Entries
Posted by Administrator on December 31, 2002 at 18:20:33:
In Reply to: Hate Monger Entries
posted by Dave Harszlak on December 31, 2002 at 14:15:19:

Source, please?

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Re: Hate Monger Entries
Posted by Jeph! on January 01, 2003 at 00:07:50:
In Reply to: Re: Hate Monger Entries
posted by Administrator on December 31, 2002 at 18:20:33:

Either way, I think we decided farther down the board that some of the 
various Hate-Mongers, be they clone bodies or not, all shared the same 
original MIND -- making them, in essence, the same character.  The same 
consciousness, jumping from body to body.  The one appearing in Cap v3 
is included in that batch.

Right?  That IS what we decided...?

-Jeph!
Oh, and happy new year 2003, everyone

			*	*	*

Re: Hate Monger Entries
Posted by Don Campbell on January 03, 2003 at 15:48:09:
In Reply to: Re: Hate Monger Entries
posted by Jeph! on January 01, 2003 at 00:07:50:

I've been meaning contribute to the Hate-Mongers thread further down the 
board but never got around to it last year. Now that its the new year, I'm 
going to take this second chance to put my two cents in. You've been warned.

First off, the MCP's treatment of the various Hate-Mongers is essentially 
correct but it does contain one large error that has to do with the so-called 
second Hate-Monger from Nick Fury: Agent of SHIELD #9-11. Simply put, that 
Hate-Monger was the SAME character as the Hate-Monger who appeared in 
Fantastic Four #21. Of course, since the explanation for how the Hate-Monger 
survived his death in that FF issue was not revealed until SVTU #17, it is 
understandable that the writer of those Nick Fury issues assumed that a "new" 
Hate-Monger was needed.

Second, a couple of storylines are listed under the wrong Hate-Monger. Aside 
from NFAOS #9-11, COTL 34-FB and COTL 35 should also be included in the 
listing for the original Hate-Monger. Since it is now known that the original 
Hate-Monger was a secret partner of the Red Skull on some of the latter's 
schemes, shouldn't he get a BTS credit for those issues? Since "Adam Hauser" 
was only an alias used by the latest Hate-Monger, the Hauser entry should be 
removed. And finally, I have some doubts as to whether or not the Hate-Monger 
who appeared in CA3 was truly the same person as the original.

I'm going to go through the relevant listings and mark any changes/additions 
with the ** that Arthur Stein uses.

HITLER, ADOLF
**DRSTR3 7/2 (circa 1921, Viscount Heinrich Krowler introduces a young Adolf 
Hitler to his cabal of dark mystics)
INV 36-FB
**TOS 66/2-FB (how Hitler created the Red Skull out of a lowly bellhop)
**TOS 67/2 (showing off, Red Skull brings a drugged Captain America before 
Hitler)
**SUB-MARINER #1 (Hitler personally orders a sea blitzkrieg against the 
Antarctic regions where the Sub-Mariner and his undersea people live)
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 22
INV@ 1-FB
INV@ 1-BTS
INV 16
INV 17
INV 18
INV 19
INV 20
INV 21
INV 32
INV 33
**SVTU 17-FB (in early 1945, Hitler meets with Arnim Zola and allows him to 
energize his brain and take cell samples for cloning)
**SPIDER-MAN: FEAR ITSELF-FB (hours before his death, Hitler rewards Baron 
Heinrich Zemo's loyalty by promising him immortality through Zola's mind-
transference process)
**YOUNG MEN 24 (killed by the original Human Torch)
**WI? 4 (ditto)
**SVTU 17-FB (how he secretly transferred his mind into a waiting brain 
cloned by Zola)
** there should be a "See Hate-Monger" link placed here **

Note: I saw the SUB-MARINER #1 story (dated March, 1941) reprinted as the 
second story in GIANT-SIZE INVADERS #1. I'm not quite sure where it fits 
into Hitler's chronology (ie. before or after the origin of the Red Skull).

HATE-MONGER/"ADOLF HITLER"
** his listing should begin with a "(From Hitler, Adolf)" link **
SVTU 17-FB
FF 21 (died)
**NFAOS 9
**NFAOS 10
**NFAOS 11 (died again?)
**COTL 34-BTS
**COTL 35 (died again)
HTD 14
**SVTU 12-BTS (was on the Moon watching Red Skull's battle with Doctor Doom)
**SVTU 16-FB (how he rescued the Red Skull)
**CA 208-212 (in this storyline, Captain America met and battled Arnim Zola 
and his creations, one of which was a body whose head had been replaced by 
a metal globe containing a brain that Zola implied was Hitler's. That body 
also appeared in SVTU 17-FB as well but there it no way of knowing if it was 
"occupied" by Hitler's mind during its battle with Cap)
**CA 226-BTS (was Red Skull's secret partner for this scheme)
**CA 227-BTS (ditto)
SVTU 16
SVTU 17
CA 299 (shown to be trapped within the Cosmic Cube)
CA 446-FB (Red Skull discovers that Hitler's face no longer appears on any 
of the Cosmic Cube's sides)
CA 445-BTS
CA 446
CA 447
CA 448

Note: There have been no CONFIRMED appearances of Hate-Monger since the 
destruction of the Cosmic Cube in which his mind was imprisoned. The Hate-
Monger who appeared in two CA3 storylines may or MAY NOT be the original. 
For the moment, I'm going to assume they are different characters.

HATE-MONGER II should read "HATE-MONGER II/See Man-Beast"

COTL 34-BTS and COTL 35 should be removed from MAN-BEAST's entry.

HATE-MONGER III should have the same entries as its current listing under 
HATE-MONGER IV (except, of course, for the changed number of its alias).

HATE-MONGER IV (formerly Hate-Monger V)
A 341
A 342
JUSTICE 1
JUSTICE 2
** there should be a "See Animus II" link placed here **

ANIMUS
**there should be a "See Vamp/Animus" link placed beside it since s/he was 
the first to use that alias **

ANIMUS II
** there should be a "(From Hate-Monger IV)" link placed here **
H3 29
Note: I admit that when I first read that Hulk story I COMPLETELY missed the 
idea that Animus was meant to be the previously-seen Hate-Monger IV. Now, 
having read Jeph's postings on the subject, it seems obvious that "they" are 
actually the same character. Apart from the statement to that effect from 
their creator, Fabian Nicieza, the two characters have similar appearances 
and IDENTICAL powers, motivations and modus operandi. That's enough for me 
to accept them as the same being...at least, until some bozo comes along 
and write a story that specifically states that they AREN'T the same.

HAUSER, ADAM should be deleted and replaced by

HATE-MONGER V
CA3 25
CA3 26
CA3 27
CA3 45-FB
CA3 46-FB
CA3 47-FB
CA3 48-FB

Note: Some people believe that the Hate-Monger from CA3 was just another 
incarnation of the original. I'm not so sure. I went back and read those 
issues and it seems to me that that particular Hate-Monger was actually 
CREATED by the Cosmic Cube energies that Red Skull had internalized. As 
the Skull says, "The Cube and I were one, my deepest thoughts revealed to 
its power! As were my memories and experiences. My time spent with Hitler 
and his fiery speeches of conquest and domination!...The Cube took all 
these thoughts and ideas, coalescing them into a form of living energy and 
emotion! Standing before you is the personifcation of my dream...of Hitler's 
dream! Raw, intensely passionate emotion given physical form!"

Of course, just because the Red Skull says (and believes) that the "new" 
Hate-Monger is wholly his creation, that doesn't mean that he's right. It's 
possible that, when the Skull internalized the Cosmic Cube's power, he also 
internalized Hitler's dormant mind as well and that it was that consciousness 
that the Cube used to create (actually re-create) the newest Hate-Monger. In 
short, Hate-Monger V could actually be the original reborn...but neither he 
nor the Skull knows it!!!

Anyway, it seems to me that there is at least as much reason for believing 
that the Hate-Monger in CA3 is not the original as there is for believing 
that Animus II and Hate-Monger IV are not the same person.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: Hate Monger Entries
Posted by Jeph! on January 03, 2003 at 23:31:20:
In Reply to: Re: Hate Monger Entries
posted by Don Campbell on January 03, 2003 at 15:48:09:

Well done, Don.  Thanks for providing what looks like the complete package 
on everyone's favorite superhuman Nazi dictator.

(Oh, and thanks also for the backup on the Animus thing!)

Great work.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Hate Monger Entries
Posted by Don Campbell on January 06, 2003 at 10:22:13:
In Reply to: Re: Hate Monger Entries
posted by Jeph! on January 03, 2003 at 23:31:20:

> Well done, Don.  Thanks for providing what looks like the complete package 
on everyone's favorite superhuman Nazi dictator.

Apparently my listing wasn't as complete as I had hoped. As the postings 
from Dimadick and DCW3 have shown, the Appendix to the Handbook of the Marvel 
Universe website contains a profile of Adolf Hitler whose chronology is FAR 
more complete than mine. They list 47 appearances in various Marvel (or 
Timely) comics, more than twice the 21 issues I listed. Of course, most of 
those other issues are comics from the 1940s or issues of SGT. FURY AND HIS 
HOWLING COMMANDOS, none of which I've ever seen, but I did forget the 
flashbacks in M/:LG 5 and CA@ 13.

Still, aside from those omissions, I only see two mistakes on my part. First, 
I listed TOS 67 as occurring before SUB-MARINER 1 instead of after CAPTAIN 
AMERICA COMICS 22. Second, when I listed DRSTR3 7/2 as Hitler's youngest 
appearance, I overlooked the fact that it was a "Tales of the Vishanti" story 
about the origin of Baron Mordo which combined new material with previously-
revealed info. In this case, Hitler's meeting with Krowler's mystics was 
first depicted as a flashback in DRSTR2 51.

By the way, is there any sort of guideline for determining the chronology of 
a character created decades ago who has appeared in stories published back 
then as well as more recent stories that were set in that same past time 
period? For example, how do you figure out how Captain America's appearances 
in various 1940s comics fit in with his Marvel stories set in WW2? For that 
matter, how do you determine the order in which his 1940s comics took place? 
When the stories themselves contain no dates, do you just fall back on date 
of publication? Also, has anyone ever gone through all of Cap's appearances 
in 1940s comics and weeded out the ones that are completely irreconcilable 
with his modern continuity? I'm thinking mainly of stories like the one 
where the Human Torch flew, on his own power, to fight Earth-threatening 
aliens on Saturn (or was it Jupiter?).

Don Campbell

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Re: Hate Monger Entries
Posted by Administrator on January 06, 2003 at 19:46:25:
In Reply to: Re: Hate Monger Entries
posted by Don Campbell on January 06, 2003 at 10:22:13:

> By the way, is there any sort of guideline for determining the chronology 
of a character created decades ago who has appeared in stories published 
back then as well as more recent stories that were set in that same past time 
period? 

We use pretty much the same guidelines that we use for determining when 
flashbacks occur.

> For example, how do you figure out how Captain America's appearances in 
various 1940s comics fit in with his Marvel stories set in WW2? For that 
matter, how do you determine the order in which his 1940s comics took place? 
When the stories themselves contain no dates, do you just fall back on date 
of publication? 

We assume that Marvel is telling the stories in the order in which they 
occur (that translates to: we go by the date of publication), unless something 
in the story suggests otherwise.

> Also, has anyone ever gone through all of Cap's appearances in 1940s comics 
and weeded out the ones that are completely irreconcilable with his modern 
continuity? I'm thinking mainly of stories like the one where the Human Torch 
flew, on his own power, to fight Earth-threatening aliens on Saturn (or was 
it Jupiter?).

I'd rather not expunge stories based on scientific probability. Who's to say 
that, fifty years from now, we shouldn't be throwing out Daredevil stories, 
because his radar vision isn't scientifically possible? I'd be more interested 
in knowing which Golden Age stories have been "disqualified" by events in 
post-Golden Age stories.

Our policy is that Golden Age stories are canon unless a post-FF #1 story has 
stated to the contrary. For more information, visit the FAQ.

			*	*	*

Hate-Monger IV Additions
Posted by Don Campbell on January 24, 2003 at 23:06:36:
In Reply to: Re: Hate Monger Entries
posted by Don Campbell on January 06, 2003 at 10:22:13:

Earlier this month, when I first put together my list of all the appearances 
of the various Hate-Mongers, I had a feeling that I'd seen the fourth Hate-
Monger (the one created by Fabian Nicieza) in some other stories but I just 
couldn't remember where. Well, I never did remember where I saw him but I did 
come up with those other appearances anyway. I was browsing through the 
"Appendix to the Marvel Handbook" site the other day and stumbled across a 
listing of those appearances in the "Soul Strangler" entry, provided by 
"Snood." Anyway, I dug out those issues and confirmed that Fabian's Hate-
Monger appeared in them so I figured that I should update my earlier listing. 
As before, I'm copying Arthur Stein's "** for new entries" method.

HATE-MONGER IV (formerly Hate-Monger V)
A 341
A 342
JUSTICE 1
JUSTICE 2
**NOM2 9-BTS (riot in L.A.)
**NOM2 12-BTS ???
**NOM2 13
**NOM2 14
**NOM2 15
**WCA2 100/4 (War Machine encountered Hate-Monger selling weapons to gangs)
**M/CP 152-BTS (War Machine went looking for Hate-Monger's operation)
**M/CP 153-BTS
**M/CP 154
**M/CP 155
<see ANIMUS II link>

Note: Although Hate-Monger doesn't appear in NOMAD #9, he claims (in #15) 
that he first met Nomad during the riot in L.A. so I put him there BTS. Also, 
I'm not sure about his BTS appearance in NOMAD #12. Yes, it is the first 
part of a four-part storyline about hate and prejudice and he does appear 
in the three subsequent issues but there's nothing in issue #12 to indicate 
his presence. There's not even his (usual) minimum of someone with glowing 
eyes standing in a crowd of angry people. I really can't tell whether or 
not he should get BTS credit for NOMAD #12.

Don Campbell

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Re: Hate-Monger IV Additions
Posted by DCW3 on January 25, 2003 at 14:09:49:
In Reply to: Hate-Monger IV Additions
posted by Don Campbell on January 24, 2003 at 23:06:36:

All the issues you've added were published before the Justice limited series; 
any reason you've got them occuring afterwards?

			*	*	*

Re: Hate-Monger IV Additions - Yikes!
Posted by Don Campbell on January 25, 2003 at 23:50:52:
In Reply to: Re: Hate-Monger IV Additions
posted by DCW3 on January 25, 2003 at 14:09:49:

> All the issues you've added were published before the Justice limited 
series; any reason you've got them occuring afterwards?

As I said in the subject line, "YIKES!!!" As for why all the extra issues 
are listed after JUSTICE, I'm afraid that that was due to sheer negligence 
on my part. I simply ASSUMED that the only two storylines listed were the 
first two and that all other appearances must have taken place afterwards. 
And while I did dig out those issues of NOMAD, AWC and MCP to verify that 
Hate-Monger appeared in them, it never occured to me to do the same for 
JUSTICE. If I had done so, then I (probably) would have noticed that the 
additional issues actually came BETWEEN the two previously-listed storylines. 
Then again, maybe I wouldn't have noticed.

Anyway, here is the list again, this time in the correct order:

HATE-MONGER IV (formerly Hate-Monger V)
A 341
A 342
**NOM2 9-BTS (riot in L.A.)
**NOM2 12-BTS ???
**NOM2 13
**NOM2 14
**NOM2 15
**WCA2 100/4 (War Machine encountered Hate-Monger selling weapons to gangs)
**M/CP 152-BTS (War Machine went looking for Hate-Monger's operation)
**M/CP 153-BTS
**M/CP 154
**M/CP 155
JUSTICE 1
JUSTICE 2
(link to ANIMUS II)

*sigh* I guess this just goes to show that when someone posts what he thinks 
is a DEFINITIVE listing, he should CHECK HIS FACTS FIRST, right? *sigh*

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Adolf and his appearances
Posted by Dimadick on January 04, 2003 at 14:16:56:
In Reply to: Re: Hate Monger Entries
posted by Don Campbell on January 03, 2003 at 15:48:09:

Great job.But you might want to check out some more appearances of Marvel's 
version of Adolf Hitler.They are mentioned in his profile in "The Appendix 
to the Marvel Handbook":

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/hitlerad.htm

See if any of them helds any interest to you.

			*	*	*

Re: Adolf and his appearances
Posted by DCW3 on January 05, 2003 at 15:15:03:
In Reply to: Adolf and his appearances
posted by Dimadick on January 04, 2003 at 14:16:56:

Just to get it written down, here's the Appendix's chronology for Hitler, 
up until his transformation into the Hate-Monger, in MCP format:

DRSTR2 51-FB
INV 36-FB
TOS 66-FB
M/:LG 5-FB
LIFE OF POPE JOHN PAUL II (Sure, why not?)
MOKF 23-FB
CA COMICS 2
SUB-M COMICS 1
ALL-WINNERS COMICS 1
HUMAN TORCH COMICS 5
CA COMICS 22
TOS 67
INV@ 1-FB
INV 16
INV 17
INV 18
INV 19
INV 20
INV 21
SGTF 9
SGTF 14
SGTF 24
SGTF 29
INV 32
INV 33
SGTF 32
SGTF 35
SGTF 41
SGTF 48
SGTF 53
SGTF 57
SGTF 58
SGTF 59
SGTF 65-BTS
SGTF 66
SGTF 67
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 42
ALL-WINNERS COMICS 11
SGTF@ 2
SVTU 17-FB
CA@ 13-FB
SM: FEAR ITSELF 
YOUNG MEN 24-FB~SAGAOHT 3
FF3 53-FB
HTD MAG 4-FB
SVTU 17-FB
