Soviet Super-Soldiers and the Hulk
Posted by captamr on January 02, 2003 at 20:46:07:

First off, Crimson Dynamo V/Dimitri Bukharin doesn't appear in H2 257. The 
Hulk meets the Arabian Knight in Israel and doesn't meet the Soviet Super-
Soldiers until the next issue in Russia. 

Ursa Major/ Mikhail Ursus' first listing is H2 259-FB-BTS. Now I understand 
the FB part which is also listed in the other Soldiers' chronologies, but 
the BTS I'm not sure of. Ursa Major is present along with the other soldiers 
in the FB and is just a bit older (7 years old)but seems to play no other 
significant role??? What am I missing?

One day I'll figure this out,but I love the journey!

Charlie

			*	*	*

The Foreigner's Appearances
Posted by John Omohundro on January 03, 2003 at 13:34:58:

  Gentlemen:

  I just took delivery of a large order of comic books. My purchase was 
based, in part, upon information on your site. I was trying to collect every 
known appearance of "The Foreigner". However, upon receipt of several of the 
issues I ordered (DEFENDERS #65, FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL #13, POWER MAN & IRON 
FIST #125, and DARKHAWK #10 through 14,inclusive), I discovered that the 
aforementioned Marvel Comics Group villain WAS NOT in ANY of those issues.

   I respectfully suggest that you update your database accordingly, so that 
another beginning collector doesn't make the same mistake that I did.

			*	*	*

Re: The Foreigner's Appearances
Posted by Administrator on January 03, 2003 at 19:29:24:
In Reply to: The Foreigner's Appearances
posted by John Omohundro on January 03, 2003 at 13:34:58:

John,

Thank you for your alert. If you'll examine our listing for the Foreigner 
carefully, you'll note that Kris Keating is an assumed identity of the 
Foreigner. A quick glance at the first book you mention, Defenders #65 
shows.....

Boom. Kris Keating on page 1. Without checking the other books, I suspect 
it's the Keating persona who appears in each of them. Unless the Keating 
identity has been retconned, we stand by our listing.

			*	*	*

Re: The Foreigner's Appearances
Posted by garbonzo on January 03, 2003 at 20:26:04:
In Reply to: Re: The Foreigner's Appearances
posted by Administrator on January 03, 2003 at 19:29:24:

Just a quick note, the character who appears in PMIF #125 is not Kris 
Keating, but NYPD Captain Chris Keating.  I am not sure if this is the 
same person as Kris Keating (the Foreigner), but he is there on page 2.

			*	*	*

Re: The Foreigner's Appearances
Posted by Administrator on January 04, 2003 at 14:31:09:
In Reply to: Re: The Foreigner's Appearances
posted by garbonzo on January 03, 2003 at 20:26:04:

> Just a quick note, the character who appears in PMIF #125 is not Kris 
Keating, but NYPD Captain Chris Keating.  I am not sure if this is the same 
person as Kris Keating (the Foreigner), but he is there on page 2.

It's the same character, with his name misspelled. Kris Keating is an NYPD 
captain.

			*	*	*

Re: The Foreigner's Appearances
Posted by John Omohundro on February 08, 2003 at 09:58:32:
In Reply to: Re: The Foreigner's Appearances
posted by Administrator on January 04, 2003 at 14:31:09:

Whoops! My mistake. I guess I read through the story so quickly that I didn't 
notice. :(

Not that I'm making excuses--FAR FROM IT--but there doesn't seem to be that 
much of a resemblance between the "Lieutenant Keating" in DEF 65 and PM&IF 
125 and PPTSSM 113. Could this be because the character had (1) AGED, (2) the 
comic was the work of A DIFFERENT ARTIST, or (3) it was DELIBERATE--that is, 
a subtle change of appearance on the part of the MARVEL staff to show the 
readers that the "Kris Keating" that was NOW appearing (i.e., in PPTSSM 113 
and later) was NOT the same individual as in the earlier titles?

Just a thought. :)  

			*	*	*

Re: The Foreigner's Appearances
Posted by Administrator on February 11, 2003 at 21:46:06:
In Reply to: Re: The Foreigner's Appearances
posted by John Omohundro on February 08, 2003 at 09:58:32:

Occam's Razor suggests option #2. For Marvel to have two NYPD captains named 
Keating, one Chris and the other Kris, is stretching suspension of disbelief.

Kris Keating was a relatively minor pseudo-character, yet even the major 
players can look different. At one point in the early nineties, Sal Buscema 
was drawing Spectacular at the same time that Erik Larsen was drawing Amazing. 
I challenge you to prove that's the same Mary Jane Watson-Parker, based solely 
on her looks. You can't do it. But she acts like MJ, and Peter calls her his 
little love bunny, so we'll go with the simplest explanation: artistic license.

And as I mentioned earlier, the simpler explanation re: Keating's first name 
is that subsequent writers (or letterers) spelled Kris's name incorrectly, 
unknowingly using the more common spelling.

			*	*	*

SHEVA JOSEPH...JUGGERNAUT...JUNIPER
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 03, 2003 at 15:02:00:

new entries marked **

JOSEPH, SHEVA
WARM 13
**WARM 14
WARM 15
WARM 16
WARM 17
WARM 18-BTS
**WARM 19
WARM 20
WARM 21

JUGGERNAUT/CAIN MARKO
XCAL 3
T 411
**CA 366   The appearance on Pg 6 panel 2 gives little new; the speech 
balloons are identical to a couple of panels in T 411  although we do see 
Thor actually getting a hit in before getting sent flying, which we dont 
in T 411. I guess the last panel on Pg 8 T 411 (consisting solely of a POW 
sound effect) is more of a composite of a longer battle resulting in Thors 
being sent flying. After that he either fights long distance or away from 
the crowds in a rail yard. 

BUT... the first panel in CA 366 Pg 9 (** new) shows the Juggernaut being 
hit by one of the Controllers disks while the battle is still in sight of 
the crowds. An action hitherto unseen.

T 411
T 412
S-H2 29-BTS

JUNIPER
**PPTSM@ 8  (name here in the first appearance was spelled Junipur)
M/CP 101/2
M/CP 102/2

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece 
of information engineering! 

			*	*	*

Final Appearence of Glen Talbot??
Posted by captamr on January 03, 2003 at 23:09:19:

Kinda nit-picking, but Glen Talbot dies in H2 260 as listed, however, his 
hand is shown in a picture of the wreakage of the War-Wagon in H2 261 last 
panel pg. 7.

Does a picture of a dead person constitute an appearence? Might be significant 
considering it's his final appearence.

Charlie

			*	*	*

Re: Final Appearence of Glen Talbot??
Posted by Jeph! on January 03, 2003 at 23:28:41:
In Reply to: Final Appearence of Glen Talbot??
posted by captamr on January 03, 2003 at 23:09:19:

I personally consider the appearance of a character's corpse to be a valid 
"appearance", the same as if they were alive.  Ditto a character's "ghost" 
or otherwise disembodied spirit.

I think the MCP feels the same way, generally -- although I can see how they 
missed that one, seeing as it was just a hand.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Spider-Man's Tangled Web #21
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 04, 2003 at 08:30:02:

Any thoughts on when exactly this issue is supposed to be happening?  It's 
clearly not exactly in present day continuity, but it's drowning in enough 
Marvel Universe references that it's obviously intended to be canon somewhere 
(as if the mere fact of being an issue of Tangled Web didn't make that clear 
enough).

The story is pretty straightforward: It's Christmas Eve.  Mary Jane is out 
of town (I'll come back to that).  Peter Parker has been despatched to buy 
a Christmas present for JJJ's wife.  Meanwhile, the Invisible Woman, Crystal 
and the Wasp go shopping at the same store, which by a handy coincidence is 
staging a fake personal appearance by Spider-Man, played by Flash Thompson.  
The Puppet Master stages an attempt to rob the store, using Medusa and the 
fake Spider-Man.  Big fight, Puppet Master loses, everyone reunited for 
Christmas.

Now, what do we have here in terms of continuity reference?

1.  Peter clearly works for JJJ, since he's running errands for him.

2.  Peter is married to Mary Jane - this is mentioned outright.

3.  Mary Jane is out of town.  We're not told why.  Peter says that "it took 
two months to convince [her] to come home for the holiday", which suggests 
she's been gone a while - but it can't be her current absence on town, and 
when she does turn up at the end, there's no suggestion that this is a major 
plot point, so presumably she's just been out of town on work.  The story 
doesn't say that she was actually way for two months - it might be a 
longstanding booking over Christmas and Peter's been trying to persuade her 
to return for Christmas since she took the booking.

4.  Betty Brant is working at the Daily Bugle offices, as is Robbie 
Robertson.  (And a couple of characters from Darwyn Cooke's last issue of 
Tangled Web, though there's nothing to suggest that this issue necessarily 
follows the earlier one.)

5.  Present at the Fantastic Four's headquarters are the four core members, 
the Wasp and Crystal.  Sue has a rather dated-looking hairstyle more in 
keeping with her sixties look.  The Wasp has black hair in a somewhat spiky 
style.  Her costume is sort of black and purple.

6.  Reed and Sue are a couple.  Franklin is around somewhere (though we don't 
see him) and he wants an FF action figure playset for Christmas.

7.  Crystal and Medusa are both established friends of the Fantastic Four.  
Medusa was "last seen by Alicia yesterday" - presumably not literally, unless 
Reed's referring to a different Alicia.  Medusa is wearing a purple costume 
with a mask and an "M" belt buckle.

7.  Flash is a dementedly obsessive Spider-Man fan.  He's hitting on women 
at work, which suggests that he probably isn't attached at this point.

8.  According to Betty, "Ned is waiting for me at home."

9.  JJJ refers to the time he fought Spider-Man using one of the Spider-
Slayer robots (the one with his face on a monitor screen).  We get a flashback 
and everything.

10.  The Puppet Master says that "my own daughter turned me away", in terms 
that suggest that this was fairly recent - although she doesn't seem to have 
mentioned it to the Fantastic Four.

11.  May Parker turns up briefly at the end.

Plenty to work with there.  So, when does it happen?

			*	*	*

Re: Spider-Man's Tangled Web #21
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on January 04, 2003 at 09:35:56:
In Reply to: Spider-Man's Tangled Web #21
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 04, 2003 at 08:30:02:

> 2.  Peter is married to Mary Jane - this is mentioned outright.

> 8.  According to Betty, "Ned is waiting for me at home."

I don't see how this one can be made to work:  Ned Leeds died prior to 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #289, but Mary Jane didn't agree to marry Peter until #292.

--Marc

			*	*	*

Re: Spider-Man's Tangled Web #21
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 04, 2003 at 10:26:08:
In Reply to: Re: Spider-Man's Tangled Web #21
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on January 04, 2003 at 09:35:56:

> I don't see how this one can be made to work:  Ned Leeds died prior to 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #289, but Mary Jane didn't agree to marry Peter until #292.

Hmm.  She doesn't specify that it's Ned Leeds.  If it comes to us, I'd ignore 
that line of dialogue, since it's completely peripheral to the plot.  (Mary 
Jane, on the other hand, needs to be married to Peter for purposes of the 
heartwarming finale, and the story mentions several times that they're 
married.)

			*	*	*

Re: Spider-Man's Tangled Web #21
Posted by Sean Curtin on January 04, 2003 at 20:01:47:
In Reply to: Re: Spider-Man's Tangled Web #21
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on January 04, 2003 at 09:35:56:

There was a period where Ned was dead but Betty was in denial and would 
occasionally make comments as if he were still alive; the story could fit 
in there.

--
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: Spider-Man's Tangled Web #21
Posted by Kevin  on January 06, 2003 at 09:53:52:
In Reply to: Re: Spider-Man's Tangled Web #21
posted by Sean Curtin on January 04, 2003 at 20:01:47:

Well...that's creepy. In this Tangled Web story, were the rest of them 
staring at her wierd-like when she talked about "going home to Ned?"

			*	*	*

Re: Spider-Man's Tangled Web #21
Posted by Antonio Gavio on January 06, 2003 at 11:47:08:
In Reply to: Spider-Man's Tangled Web #21
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 04, 2003 at 08:30:02:

I've been working on a timeline of the Spider-Man appearances for Paul's 
calendar and I have this issue placed in the Christmas prior to Flash 
Thompson being in a coma. Aside from Betty mentioning "Ned is waiting for 
me at home", wich is ovbiously a mistake (when she says that just the two 
girls who also appear in Tangled Web 11 are around, so Betty might have been 
lying about her marital status to those girls for reasons unknown), is there 
anything preventing it from happening in recent continuity?

			*	*	*

Vision mini-series
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 04, 2003 at 12:38:21:

The recent Vision mini-series must occur between issues #60 and #61 of 
Avengers, vol. 3, but can anyone provide me with details about the passage 
of time in that series, plus character appearances and temporal references 
in each issue?  I can't imagine that the series takes place over an extended 
period of time, since I don't believe Thor would stick around Avengers 
Mansion (er, Embassy) for a long time after A3 60 before taking off in A3 
61.  (And given Thor's raiment in A3 59-61, these issues of Avengers must 
occur during the Asgard-over-Manhattan storyline in Thor, vol. 2, so Thor 
has a host of other concerns to occupy his time.)

Thanks in advance.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Vision mini-series
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 04, 2003 at 15:54:56:
In Reply to: Vision mini-series
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 04, 2003 at 12:38:21:

VISION doesn't require more than a day or two to take place, as I recall.  
There's nobody in it who's appeared elsewhere aside from the Vision himself.  
It's basically the Vision waking up with amnesia, trailing off to find the 
nearest descendent of his creator, succeeding, and then defeating a robot 
villain.

I'd be more specific but to be honest, I already threw out my copies - the 
book's pretty dreadful.

			*	*	*

Re: Vision mini-series
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 04, 2003 at 17:33:38:
In Reply to: Re: Vision mini-series
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 04, 2003 at 15:54:56:

I came to that conclusion with just a perusal of the issues in the store, 
so I didn't buy them, and I'm a hardcore Avengers fan.  There was a 
reference by the Vision to his encounter with, I believe, the Gremlin, in 
A3 62.  I'm assuming that's a reference to the mini-series (the robot 
villain you mention?).

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Vision mini-series
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 05, 2003 at 03:40:30:
In Reply to: Re: Vision mini-series
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 04, 2003 at 17:33:38:

Yes.  Evil Nazi-created robot powered by a duplicate solar gem.  

			*	*	*

Re: Vision mini-series
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 05, 2003 at 22:05:56:
In Reply to: Re: Vision mini-series
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 05, 2003 at 03:40:30:

...You're kidding, right?  Yup, sounds like the makings of a throwaway 
story, except for the physiological effect it seems to have had on the 
Vision.  What's up with that?

--Paul

			*	*	*

X-Men Unlimited #40
Posted by Jeph! on January 05, 2003 at 00:37:15:

Wow.  Usually, labeling something "out-of-continuity" is generally a last 
resort for me, but ... wow.

Let's start with story #3, shall we?  Juggernaut attends a poetry slam.  
Ignoring the goofy plot and cartoonish art, let me list two things that make 
me think this is a non-canon story:

- Juggy is teamed up with the Toad and Mastermind -- old versions, implying 
this tale takes place in the past, and it's implied that he's a member of 
the Brotherhood.  Juggy was never a member of the BoEM, nor was he ever 
allied with those two.

- Juggy gets his helmet torn off, and is then punched senseless, by the 
Toad.  Is this possible?  Even helmet-less, Juggy is invulnerable -- the 
helmet only protects against psionic attacks.

Not to mention, Juggy wears a tie and swoons over a woman he meets in a 
coffe shop.  Swoons.

I'm thinking, if it IS canon, it might be in some obscure corner of X-Men 
Forever, given that that's the only time Juggy and Toad have ever really 
interacted.  We'd have to come up with an explanation for his power drain, 
though.  Bah.

Moving on to story #2 ... the first meeting of Mystique and Sabretooth, 
where she allegedly gets pregnant by him, then frames him for murder.

First off: this story seems to take place just after Mystique is thrown 
out of her German castle, just after birthing (and tossing) baby 
Nightcrawler.  But Mystique and Sabes had met YEARS before that, in East 
Berlin -- Mystique was posing as Leni Zauber, and the "Sabretooth: Death 
Hunt" series implies that THAT'S when she got pregnant with Graydon -- XU 
#4 tells us that Graydon is 27, but he'd have to be at least 35 in order 
to run for President.  In either case, he's surely older than Nightcrawler, 
placing Mystique and Sabretooth's first meeting BEFORE the time-frame that 
XU #40/2 appears to be set in.

Second point: also in the "Sabretooth" series, it looks like Sabretooth 
meets Mystique IN HER NATURAL FORM for the first time.  He sees her blue 
skin and says "you look just like your picture" -- and he recognizes her 
SCENT as Leni Zauber's.  This shows us that Sabes had never seen Mystique's 
true form before -- which he does in this XU story.

(Of course, Sabes and Mystique have worked together in the past on one other 
occasion -- detailed in the "Sabretooth and Mystique" limited series.  
Mystique is in disguise as an Arabian man, but still, Sabes doesn't 
recognize her scent THERE.  Perhaps scent isn't everything -- or maybe THAT 
pairing came before he met Leni Zauber.  Hmm.)

Also, in XU #40/2, Mystique betrays Sabes, frames him, and locks him up -- 
you'd think he'd want some vengeance for that.  You'd think he'd remember 
her face.

Bah.  I'm willing to forgive a LITTLE, but I can't seem to reconcile this 
story with Sabes' and Mystique's previously established history.  (And, 
as a matter of fact, their previous history is pretty convoluted, and 
implies that Wolvie and Sabretooth worked for Team-X BEFORE having their 
memory-implants put in by the Weapon X program ... but was it AFTER they 
were "souped-up" by Weapon X?  I'm so confused about that whole area of 
their lives.)

This could have been a lot more coherent, but it's not -- feel free to ask 
me to clarify what the heck I'm babbling about.

Story #1 is an inoffensive Sabretooth solo story that could really fit 
anywhere before his affiliation with the current Weapon X.  I don't 
remember if his bones were adamantium or not, though.

Anyone want to offer their thoughts on this issue, and the canonicity therein?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men Unlimited #40
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 05, 2003 at 03:46:32:
In Reply to: X-Men Unlimited #40
posted by Jeph! on January 05, 2003 at 00:37:15:

I agree that the Juggernaut story can't be canon.  God, it was awful.  But 
it's so many miles away from any version of history ever published that it 
belongs on the Marvel equivalent of Earth-B.

In the first story, Sabretooth has adamantium bones (we never see this 
outright, the narrator tells us that they're indestructible in the second 
panel).

In the second story, it may be possible to square the circle by having this 
story take place after Sabretooth had his memories messed up by the Weapon 
X Project - he may not recognise Mystique, but it's not immediately clear 
from the story that she doesn't recognise him.

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men Unlimited #40
Posted by Jeph! on January 05, 2003 at 14:10:08:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men Unlimited #40
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 05, 2003 at 03:46:32:

> In the first story, Sabretooth has adamantium bones (we never see this 
outright, the narrator tells us that they're indestructible in the second 
panel).

Okay, that's good -- he's only had adamantium bones for short periods of 
time -- and since he doesn't have his tattoos, that means that this story 
takes place between W2 #128 and #145, during the time-frame where he FIRST 
had an adamantium skelton.  Sabes only has two appearances in there, both 
in Maverick -- I'd place this story after the Maverick appearances, to give 
enough time for Sabes' adamantium skeleton to become more public knowledge -- 
in W2 #126-128, not even WOLVIE knows about it, and by the time of this 
story, even some hunter knows about it.

> In the second story, it may be possible to square the circle by having 
this story take place after Sabretooth had his memories messed up by the 
Weapon X Project - he may not recognise Mystique, but it's not immediately 
clear from the story that she doesn't recognise him.

Well, I'm taking from the "Sabretooth and Mystique" series the impression 
that Sabretooth DIDN'T recognize Mystique's scent when she posed as a male 
Mossad agent.  No matter which one came first -- his time with Leni or his 
time with the agent -- he should have recognized one's scent as the other's.  
So I'm assuming that, if need be, Mystique has some way of disguising her 
scent when undercover.

So, if we place this XU story BEFORE Sabes' memories get messed up, we have 
a rationale for why he doesn't (a) recognize her or (b) want revenge for her 
betrayal in XU #40/2, when he meets her in "Sabretooth: Death Hunt" #2.  
Things could go like this:

- Sabretooth meets Leni Zauber, conceives Graydon Creed.  Circa 37 years 
ago (to allow Graydon time to be old enough to run for Pres "last year").  
Sabretooth, Wolvie, and Maverick are all serving together at this point in 
Team-X, but Mystique says in "Sabe" #3 that he met Leni BEFORE his memories 
got scrambled.

- XU #40 - Sabretooth meets Mystique circa 25-30 years ago, just after 
Nightcrawler's birth. (I'm assuming Kurt's eternally around 25-30, as are 
all the X-Men.)  She recognizes him, but he doesn't recognize her -- and 
although he smells on her that she's a mutant, he doesn't connect her with 
Leni.  Perhaps Mystique was disguising her scent when she was undercover 
in Berlin.  She manipulates and betrays him, and he swears revenge.  She 
says she's pregnant, but she could easily be lying.

- Sabretooth gets his memories scrambled by the Weapon X project.  He 
forgets all about ever meeting Mystique.

- Sabretooth and Mystique go undercover in Jerusalem to save Destiny from 
HYDRA forces in the "Sabe & Mystique" limited series -- circa 15 years ago?  
I don't know -- Destiny looks fairly old, so I'm assuming it was fairly 
recent.  Sabe is working for the CIA, not Team-X, and Mystique is posing as 
male Mossad Agent Amichai Benvenisti.

- "Sabe" limited series -- Graydon Creed forces Sabretooth to try to 
assassinate Mystique.  They meet "for the first time", and he says her 
scent smells familiar.  She then reveals that she was Leni Zauber.  However, 
there's no explicit connection made between those two facts -- Sabe could be 
thinking of Benvenisti's scent when he says she smells familiar -- 
especially if his memories of XU #40 Mystique were scrambled, and Leni was 
disguising her true scent in Berlin.

Thoughts?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

X-Treme X-men X-Pose' #2
Posted by Jeph! on January 05, 2003 at 01:52:21:

Continuing my late-night ramblings on the X-Books...

XXX #2 is split into two parts -- the first part takes place shortly after 
issue #1, and the second part takes place a week later.  In part two, 
Archangel is back to white skin, Storm's back is healed, and Wolverine is 
in NYC.

Now, for those of you that care about these things, Archangel is wearing 
the completely wrong hairstyle -- he's sporting the sideburns-and-chinstripe 
look from UX #394-398, but with pink (post-UX #413) skin.  It's clearly an 
error, but for those that need explanations for these things, I can point 
out that Chuck Austen's script for UX #412 had Archangel's hair grow longer 
as his skin turned from blue to pink.  It would seem that, for the first 
few days at least, part of Archangel's "healing" secondary mutation was 
accelerated hair growth.  Perhaps in the 2-3 weeks that separated UX #413 
and 414, he cycled through a few different hairstyles before settling on 
one that went well with pink skin.  Yes?  No?

In any case, I'm recommending that XXX #2, part 2, be placed just after 
UX #413, and just before Wolvie's trip to Canada in W2 #179.  Temporally 
that works, as it's just about a "week", Marvel-time, after my placement 
of XXX #1 between X #130 and W2 #177.  (Paul Bourcier, I hope you're 
noticing that I'm starting to factor Marvel-time progression into my 
chronologizing...)

(We're still waiting for XX #20 to show us Storm's current costume, and 
give us a better clue as to where to place XU #39/2 -- but that story's 
placement doesn't make much difference on how I placed XXX #2 part 2.  It 
could come afterwards relatively easily, if need be.)

-Jeph!
			*	*	*

Re: X-Treme X-men X-Pose' #2
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 06, 2003 at 14:17:55:
In Reply to: X-Treme X-men X-Pose' #2
posted by Jeph! on January 05, 2003 at 01:52:21:

>Perhaps in the 2-3 weeks that separated UX #413 and 414, he cycled through 
a few different hairstyles before settling on one that went well with pink 
skin.  Yes?  No?

Warren seems to be back to short hair with effect from the current issue, 
if that helps.

			*	*	*

Re: X-Treme X-men X-Pose' #2
Posted by Jeph! on January 06, 2003 at 14:36:26:
In Reply to: Re: X-Treme X-men X-Pose' #2
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 06, 2003 at 14:17:55:

Not short enough -- there doesn't seem to be time for him to have grown 
sideburns and a chin-goatee, then shaved his head (to get him to the style 
we see in XXX #2) -- then grown it back out to the length it is in UX #417.

I placed it in-between #413 and #414 because there seems to be a gap of 
WEEKS in-between those issues, as opposed to a gap of DAYS that separates 
most of the rest of #414-417.

That said, "hairstyles" is probably my LEAST concern when chronologizing -- 
if future issues of X-Treme necessitate changes, I'll happily make 'em.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: X-Treme X-men X-Pose' #2
Posted by Russ Chappell on January 06, 2003 at 19:50:55:
In Reply to: Re: X-Treme X-men X-Pose' #2
posted by Jeph! on January 06, 2003 at 14:36:26:

I wouldn't recommend performing backflips to get this to work. Unless it 
somehow has a bearing on the story, hair length can usually be chalked up 
to "artistic license."

			*	*	*

Re: X-Treme X-men X-Pose' #2
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 07, 2003 at 07:23:25:
In Reply to: Re: X-Treme X-men X-Pose' #2
posted by Jeph! on January 06, 2003 at 14:36:26:

> I placed it in-between #413 and #414 because there seems to be a gap of 
WEEKS in-between those issues, as opposed to a gap of DAYS that separates 
most of the rest of #414-417.

I believe there's a reference in UX 414 to the events of UX 412 having 
occurred "the other day," in which case weeks do not separate 413 and 414.

--Paul

			*	*	*

UX time references and XXX #2 placement
Posted by Jeph! on January 07, 2003 at 11:24:51:
In Reply to: Re: X-Treme X-men X-Pose' #2
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 07, 2003 at 07:23:25:

> I believe there's a reference in UX 414 to the events of UX 412 having 
occurred "the other day," in which case weeks do not separate 413 and 414.

Here goes an unprofessional answer, but ... WITHOUT CHECKING THE BOOKS 
(see?) ... here's what I recall about UX #410-417.

First off -- it should be noted that there are some seriously SUSPECT 
temporal references in Austen's run.  UX #410-413 take place on the same 
day -- a running battle with Black Tom -- and yet, in another subplot, 
Annie Ghazakhanian has time to recognize her comatose patient as Havok, 
call the X-Mansion, meet Cyclops, get hired at the Mansion, quit her old 
job, collect her son, and show up at the Mansion -- just as the X-Men are 
getting back from their fight.

Also, a scene in #416 established that Sammy (the Squidboy) hasn't been 
assigned a room yet, "because everyone's so busy" -- but #415 established 
that "weeks" have passed since #410, the issue where Sammy was accepted to 
the school.

Anyway, here's what I remember of the issues -- references AND (more 
importantly) medical evidence.

#410-413.  The battle with Black Tom.  Archangel breaks his arm and leg, 
and turns back to pink.

#414.  Northstar joins.  Archangel is still in a cast.  Northstar is injured 
in an explosion that puts him in the infirmary.  I don't recall how long 
after #413 this is said to be.

#415 -- I believe the Black Tom battle is referenced as "weeks ago" and #414 
is references as "the other day".  Archangel is out of his casts (which 
surprises Iceman, as its "too soon" for him to ve healed), but Northstar is 
still in the infirmary.

#416 -- Northstar is STILL in the infirmary.

So, in retrospect, it looks like the best place to stick XXX #2 part 2 is 
between UX #414 and #415 -- not necessarily because of any time references, 
but because Warren isn't wearing any CASTS in XXX #2!

(For Wolvie's chronology, this places him between W2 #180 and 181 -- his 
emergency trip to Canada in #179-180 can explain why he isn't at Storm's 
side more often (not until the END of XXX #2)  -- after all, he's supposed 
to be staying with her until she heals, and as preview pages of XX #20 make 
clear, she ISN'T totally healed yet -- and it looks like Wolvie's still with 
her.)

Good catch, Paul.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: UX time references and XXX #2 placement
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 09, 2003 at 21:43:17:
In Reply to: UX time references and XXX #2 placement
posted by Jeph! on January 07, 2003 at 11:24:51:

I'm inclined to think of one temporal reference as an error -- the one that 
separates pages 18 and 19 of XXX 2 by only "about a week."  Given the 
chronologies of Storm, Logan, and Archangel, I'd put a couple of months 
between those pages.  I'd consider pg. 19-22 of XXX2 as a flash-forward of 
sorts, occuring after the current story in XX (starting in XX 20).  Warren's 
hair and goatee, Storm's apparent recovery, the snow, and the "October" 
newspaper reference in pg. 19-22 of XXX 2 seem to support this.  Here are my 
current calendar notes on the relevant issues (bear in mind that I don't 
collect W2, so I'm not up on all of Logan's comings and goings )...

AUGUST

New X-Men #128
New X-Men #129
New X-Men #130
X 128-130 occur during one day, most likely after XX 19.  Paris is rebuilt, 
placing this story sometime after UX 408.  Xavier and Jean are in Paris, 
visiting X-Corp.  Darkstar dies.

X-Treme X-Men: Xpose #1 (pages 5-7)
One day and the next day, a whole week after XXX 1 pg. 1-4.  Reporters 
visit X-Corp in Paris, presumably because Xavier and Worthington are there, a
lthough they do not appear the whole day.  Jeph places this segment between 
Darkstars death in X 130 and her funeral in X 131.  Conan and Wetherell 
get a tip to go to New Orleans.  The next day (around 1:30 PM, according 
to the camera in XXX 2-FB pg. 2-3), other reporters visit Emma Frost at 
Xaviers, where we see green foliage and warm weather; they are dumped in 
the lake. 

X-Treme X-Men: Xpose #2  FB (pages 2-3)
Same day as the end of XXX 1 pg. 5-7.  The dunked reporters retreat from 
Xaviers amid taunts from the students there.

X-Treme X-Men: Xpose #1 (pages 8-22)
Probably the day after the end of XXX 1 pg. 5-7 and perhaps the day after 
that.  Conan and Wetherell visit Ororo (still wheelchair-bound, but who 
manages to stand and try to fly) and Logan in New Orleans (where they have 
been since XX 19), then the reporters travel to Los Angeles, where they 
visit Bishop and Sage and the weather is right for windsurfing.

X-Treme X-Men: Xpose #2 (pages 1-18)
Probably the day after XXX 1 pg. 8-22.  This segment occurs before XX 20, 
but it must be much more than about a week before XXX 2 pg. 19-22.  Conan 
and Wetherell visit Gambit and Rogue outside Los Angeles.  Gambit and Rogue 
have been on the road for weeks following XX 19.

X-Treme X-Men #20
One day and the next day.  Bishop and Sage have returned from California to 
rejoin Storm and Logan in New Orleans.  Sage refers to the events of X 115 
as having occurred recently.  She also references the mutants they met in 
XXX 1 pg. 8-22, which may not have been very recent, given her comment, 
Remember California?  After investigating some murders on a night with a 
full moon, Bishop and Sage go to Xaviers, where they encounter Emma Frost 
and the mutant responsible.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

X-Treme X-Men #21

Wolverine v2 #177
Wolverine v2 #178
Logan travels from New York to the Vatican to deal with evil Catholics.  I 
have only one of these issues, so placement (during the few days between X 
130 and 131) is, again, based on Jephs work.  Temporal references anyone?

New X-Men #131
One day, probably a few days after X2 130, as we see Darkstars funeral.  
Logan is picked up from Madripoor, where Jeph theorizes he had gone after 
the Vatican adventure in W2 177-180.  Since Archangel (who is back at 
Xaviers now) is still blue here, this issue must occur before UX 410.

New X-Men #132
Probably the day after X2 131.  A group of X-Men are on their way from the 
Paris funeral of Darkstar to India when the stop in Genosha, where Storm 
has been for three days (thus missing the funeral).  Storm has recovered, 
so this story must occur at least three days after XX 20.  A comment by 
Sabra about this being the worst weekend of her life suggests that X2 131 
occurs on Saturday and this issue on a Sunday.  Polaris returns.  According 
to the introductory notes in X2 133, it is one year after the destruction 
of Genosha in X2 115, but that length of time may be too long  six months 
may be more appropriate.

New X-Men #133
Probably the day after NXM 132, as the X-Men arrive in India.  Full moon.

X-Treme X-Men #20
One day.  Bishop and Sage have returned from California to rejoin Storm and 
Logan in New Orleans.  Sage refers to the events of X 115 as having occurred 
recently.  She also references the mutants they met in XXX 1 pg. 8-22, 
which may not have been very recent, given her comment, Remember 
California?  Full moon.

SEPTEMBER

Chamber #1
Jonathon enrolls undercover at ESU, and his leaving is referenced in UX 410.  
Cyclops guest-stars.  It is early September.

X-Men Unlimited #39/2
One day.  Logan and Storm encounter Sunfire in Japan.  Storm is up and about 
but still recovering from a serious back injury.  Her appearance in a new 
costume may be a clue that this story occurs after X 132.  Logan may be here 
before returning to Westchester prior to UX 410.

Uncanny X-Men #410
Uncanny X-Men #411
Uncanny X-Men #412
Uncanny X-Men #413
UX 410-413 occur during the course of a day, a year after XF 149 and a 
few weeks before UX 417.  Since this story ends with Archangel losing his 
blue skin color, it must occur after X 131, and the reference to calling 
Lorna would place it after X 132.  Warren also breaks his arm and leg in 
this story.  Xaviers, Jeans, and Logans presence in the USA places the 
story after X 133.  Chamber has gone off to college, so this occurs after 
Chamber #1.  Green grass and trees in Vancouver and upstate New York.  
Jackets in Vancouver and warm weather at Xaviers.

Wolverine v2 #179
Wolverine v2 #180
Logan travels from Xaviers to Canada, and so Jeph places this after UX 413.  
Again, I dont have these issues, so temporal references would help.

Uncanny X-Men #414
One day, months after X 113.  UX 412 is referred to as having occurred the 
other day. Archangel is still in a cast.  Northstar accepts a teaching 
position at Xaviers, but is injured in an explosion that puts him in the 
infirmary.  Green grass and trees in Ontario. 

Chamber #2
Chamber #3
Chamber #4 (beginning)
Jonathon continues his investigation of the ESU student murders.  Issue #2 
(the only issue I have) occurs the day after at least part of issue #1, and 
it is raining.  I know theres a full moon in issue #3.

New X-Men #134
One rainy night and the next day.  Reference is made to Jean being in Hong 
Kong and expected home soon after being away for a while, but shes still 
there weeks after this in X 135.  Given the green grass and autumn leaves 
at Westchester and the reference that is made to it being late summer, 
Jean must have left Xaviers for another long-distance trip after UX 413.

Uncanny X-Men #415
One day, weeks after UX 413.  UX 414 is referred to as having occurred 
the other day.  It is a few days before UX 416.  Archangel is out of 
his casts, which surprises Iceman as its too soon for Warren to be 
healed.  Northstar is in the infirmary.  Green grass and trees at 
Westchester.  Full moon.

OCTOBER

Uncanny X-Men #416
One day, a few days after UX 415.  Sammy hasnt been assigned a room at 
Xaviers yet, presumably because everyones so busy, even though its been 
weeks since he came on board in UX 410.  Given his awe of X-Men, Glob 
Hermans appearance here probably predates his joining the Omega Gang in X 
135.  Stacy X is released from the infirmary while Northstar is still 
recuperating.  Lorna has been called about Alex and is expected to arrive 
at Xaviers in the morning.  We see green grass and trees at Westchester.  
It is cool enough for jackets and trench coats.

Uncanny X-Men #417
One night and the next day.  It is a few weeks after UX 410-413.  The 
weather is nice enough for a game of catch.  Husk is dwelling on her past 
relationship with Chamber; this suggests that this issue must occur before 
Jonathons return to Xaviers at the end of Chamber #4.

Uncanny X-Men #418
Same day as the end of UX 417.

Chamber #4 (end)
Jonathon returns to Xaviers.  Sammys presence there indicates that this 
segment occurs after UX 413.  It is probably sometime after UX 417, given 
Jonathons absence in UX 414-417 and Husks scene in UX 417.  Green grass 
and trees at Xaviers.

New X-Men #135
One day and the next day.  One the first day, Xavier notes that he is 
opening the doors to the Institute to non-mutants in three days time.  
Quentin Quire has changed considerably in recent weeks, since X 134.  
Glob Herman probably appears here after UX 416.  Jean is still in Hong 
Kong, but appears here telepathically.  We see green grass and trees in 
Westchester and its seasonable enough for the Special Class to go camping.

X-Treme X-Men: Xpose #2 (pages 19-22)
One day, supposedly about a week after XXX 2 pg. 1-18, but given Storms 
and Archangels chronologies, it may be a couple of months after.  Warren 
has white skin and no casts, so this segment must occur after UX 414.  It 
probably occurs after Iceman discovers that Warren is out of his casts in 
UX 415.  Warren also sports shortened hair and a goatee.  Storm appears 
recovered here.  The snow falling in Manhattan may be the same as that 
shown in BP3 53, only by this time the snow has had time to accumulate.  
The newspaper reads Friday, October something (perhaps October 25 given 
the full moon in BP3 52-53).

This is my current take on events, at least until the next X-related issue 
lands in my hands.  How does this look to you, Jeph?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Recent X-Men issue timeline...
Posted by Jeph! on January 10, 2003 at 22:30:12:
In Reply to: Re: UX time references and XXX #2 placement
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 09, 2003 at 21:43:17:

> How does this look to you, Jeph?

Mostly pretty good -- but I don't agree with your placements of XXX #2 and 
XX #20.

I see WHY you did what you did -- you're basing your placements of those 
segments on Storm and her back injury -- but, think on this:

We didn't SEE Storm unable to walk in XX #20.  We saw her fall while 
lifting weights.  It's entirely possible that, as of XX #20, she's able 
to walk around for short distances.

Given that Chris Claremont, who wrote both XXX #2 and XX #20, probably 
intended the final pages of XXX #2 to lay where they were published -- 
BEFORE XX #20 -- it's VERY PROBABLE that, as far as he's concerned, Storm 
CAN currently walk -- and her tumble in XX #20 was more of a relapse than 
anything else.

Therefore, I'd prefer to push the final part of XXX #2 as far back as 
possible -- to just before UX #415, where Archangel is out of his casts, 
but recently enough that Iceman hasn't noticed yet.

Now to tackle your other objections -- the falling snow, and the October 
newspaper date.  You've thrown out other newspaper dates before (notably, 
the "Daredevil exposed" of the Bugle) -- personally, I tend to completely 
ignore them, as they're generally EXTREMELY topical to the date of 
publication of the comic.  And as for the falling snow, remember, these 
pages of XXX #2 dealt with Storm in a very bad mood, essentially being 
thrown out of the X-Men by Archangel.  I'd be subconsciously manifesting 
bad weather if I were her too.

As for XX #20 -- well, I generally don't place story arcs until the arc 
is over, but given the state of the X-Mansion in XX #20, it seems that 
"Schism" takes place BEFORE "Riot at Xavier's".  (Also notice the FALL 
weather on page one.)

If you read Storm's fall as the relapse Claremont obviously intends it to 
be, there's no need to slot this story before X #132, where we see Storm 
walking, and placing it farther forward allows Sage's comment "remember 
the mutants we met in California?" to ring truer.

I'd place this issue fairly currently -- say, just before UX #417, since 
by that issue Logan is back in NYC sniffing out the werewolf killers.  
Hopefully more evidence will present itself over the rest of the arc, but 
for now I feel safe placing it there.

And, as for Wolverine #177-180 ... the way I read Logan's presence in the 
XX/XXX series, he's pretty much staying by Storm's side until she heals.  
Only when called away to do other things will he leave her.  I've tried 
to thread his other appearances into slots in XX/XXX, and rationalize them 
as "important diversions."  Here's what I've got his chronology as right 
now, and why I place W2 #179-180 where I do.

XX #19 - Logan makes the decision to stay with Storm for awhile -- he even 
tells Jean that he won't be going back with them.

XXX #1 - there he is, still in New Orleans.  Coach Logan, providing tough 
love.

W2 #177-178 - Logan is contacted by his pal Father Braun, who asks to meet 
him on urgent business.  From New York the two of them travel to the Vatican.  
(I'm assuming that Logan left New Orleans to come to NYC at Braun's request.)

** I'd LIKE to place XU #39/2 in this spot, because it places both Logan and 
Storm in Japan, and implies that they came in from separate routes.  If 
Storm was on her way FROM New Orleans TO Genosha, where we see her in X #132; 
and Logan was on his way FROM Rome TO Madripoor, where we see him in X #131, 
they'd both be in the right general area of the world at the same time -- it 
makes perfect sense that Logan would want to check in on Storm's recovery, 
since he was called away in W2 #177.

(Bear in mind, by the time of X #131 -- where Logan is DONE with his business 
in Madripoor -- Storm has been in Genosha for two days already.  It makes 
PERFECT temporal sense for them to overlap in Japan -- the only problem is 
Storm's outfit in XU #39/2, and as the cover to the upcoming XX #22 makes 
clear, she won't be wearing the XU #39/2 outfit anytime soon, if ever.)

Also, wherever we stick XU #39/2, I'd like to preface it with W2 #183/2 and 
the W:Netsuke miniseries, in that order -- the first give Logan a reason to 
travel TO Japan (to give Lady Deathstrike her comeuppance -- made more 
believable if you assume he was already in Rome, rather than the USA), and 
the Netsuke mini begins and ends with Logan already in Japan.  (XU #39/2, 
by the way, ends with Logan being given 24 hours' notice to LEAVE Japan -- 
which would place "Netsuke" BEFORE it.)

X #131 - Logan is, for some reason, in Madripoor.  He gets picked up by the 
X-Men for Darkstar's funeral, and travels to Paris.

X #133 - two or three days later, Logan's in Afghanistan -- logical to assume 
he was sent straight from the funeral, to rendezvous with Prof. X at X-Corp 
Mumbai.

UX #410-413 - Logan and Prof. X come home to the USA, and Logan is sent 
straight back OUT again to Cassidy Keep.  My assumption here is that he 
only goes because, HAVING SEEN THAT STORM IS DOING WELL IN XU #39/2, he 
feels okay about leaving her for a while.  (Yes, it's pretty oblique 
chronologizing -- but I'm trying to support my assertation that he won't 
leave her alone for very long during her convalescence unless it's 
important).

W2 #179-180 -- an urgent distress call takes Logan from the X-Mansion 
(likely the day he returns from UX #410-413) to Canada to help rescue 
Alpha Flight from a demon and to briefly tutor Shaman's new student.

XXX #2 pp. 19-22 - Logan rendezvouses with Storm in NYC, who has travelled 
up there under her own steam to try to persuade the TV network executive 
not to air his show -- a fruitless endeavor, because Archangel has bought 
him out.  I agree that this probably isn't JUST a week since XXX #2 p. 18, 
but I don't think it's as late as you think it is, Paul.

XX #20 - Logan is now back in New Orleans supervising Storm as she continues/
finishes up her convalescent period -- he likely travelled there with her 
after XXX #2 pp. 19-22.

(XX #21-23 - "Schism" concludes.  No idea if we'll see Logan here.)

Punisher v4 #16-17 - Now Logan's back in NYC, and I'd like to asume that 
this means that Storm's healed.

UX #417 - More Logan in NYC.

W2 #181-185 - Logan takes on the Jersey mobs.  He's got loads of time to 
kill.  I sure hope Storm is cured by now, because otherwise he's a lousy 
coach.

X #135 - is Logan "calling long-distance" into Prof. X's telepathic study, 
or is he physically at the mansion?  Methinks we'll soon see in #136 that 
he IS there.

Thoughts on this, Paul?  As usual, if I wasn't clear on anything, feel free 
to ask questions -- but to me, as far as XXX #2 and XX #20 go, you seem to 
be needlessly complicating things because of a very strict interpretation 
of Storm's convalescence, and an equally strict reading of a single newspaper 
date.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Initial reaction to XXX/XX...and Chamber too
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 13, 2003 at 07:19:52:
In Reply to: Recent X-Men issue timeline...
posted by Jeph! on January 10, 2003 at 22:30:12:

> > How does this look to you, Jeph?

> Mostly pretty good -- but I don't agree with your placements of XXX #2 
and XX #20.

> I see WHY you did what you did -- you're basing your placements of those 
segments on Storm and her back injury -- but, think on this:

> We didn't SEE Storm unable to walk in XX #20.  We saw her fall while 
lifting weights.  It's entirely possible that, as of XX #20, she's able to 
walk around for short distances.

> Given that Chris Claremont, who wrote both XXX #2 and XX #20, probably 
intended the final pages of XXX #2 to lay where they were published -- BEFORE 
XX #20 -- it's VERY PROBABLE that, as far as he's concerned, Storm CAN 
currently walk -- and her tumble in XX #20 was more of a relapse than 
anything else.

I'm not sure that we can say what Claremont's intentions were, other than to 
tell a good story.

> Therefore, I'd prefer to push the final part of XXX #2 as far back as 
possible -- to just before UX #415, where Archangel is out of his casts, 
but recently enough that Iceman hasn't noticed yet.

> Now to tackle your other objections -- the falling snow, and the October 
newspaper date.  You've thrown out other newspaper dates before (notably, 
the "Daredevil exposed" of the Bugle) -- personally, I tend to completely 
ignore them, as they're generally EXTREMELY topical to the date of 
publication of the comic.  And as for the falling snow, remember, these 
pages of XXX #2 dealt with Storm in a very bad mood, essentially being 
thrown out of the X-Men by Archangel.  I'd be subconsciously manifesting 
bad weather if I were her too.

Actually, I didn't base my placement on that newspaper date.  I placed the 
end of XXX 2 in October *before* I noticed that newspaper date.  I just 
mentioned that as a happy coincidence (or maybe not a coincidence...;))

> As for XX #20 -- well, I generally don't place story arcs until the arc 
is over, but given the state of the X-Mansion in XX #20, it seems that 
"Schism" takes place BEFORE "Riot at Xavier's".  (Also notice the FALL 
weather on page one.)

> If you read Storm's fall as the relapse Claremont obviously intends it 
to be, there's no need to slot this story before X #132, where we see 
Storm walking, and placing it farther forward allows Sage's comment 
"remember the mutants we met in California?" to ring truer.

I can't see evidence that Claremont intended Storm's condition in XX 20 
as a "relapse."  My placement of XX 20 as a flashforward was based on my 
reading of a logical progression of events in the lives of Ororo, Logan, 
and Warren.

But I will review your sequencing and get back to you, probably in a new 
thread.

By the way, I picked up Chamber #1 and #3 in a bargain bin yesterday.  
Now I have all but issue #4.  Based on what I see, I've moved #1-#3 (and 
the beginning of #4) to late August -- the first twelve pages of Chamber 
#1 occurring around August 21 ("the fall session's probably starting 
soon"), and the rest of Chamber #1, plus Chamber #2 and #3, occurring 
Wednesday-Friday, August 28-30 (at the beginning of ESU's fall semester, 
concurrent with X 131-133 -- full moons in both sets of issues).

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Initial reaction to XXX/XX...and Chamber too
Posted by Jeph! on January 13, 2003 at 10:37:44:
In Reply to: Initial reaction to XXX/XX...and Chamber too
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 13, 2003 at 07:19:52:

> I'm not sure that we can say what Claremont's intentions were, other 
than to tell a good story.

You're saying that we can't trust the man to write his issues in sequential 
order?

Let's face it -- Chris knows very well that XXX #1-2 take place in-between 
XX #19-20.  In XXX #1 he had Storm stand.  In XXX #2 he had Storm walk.  In 
XX #20 he had Storm fall down again -- and since we only see her for two 
pages, we have no real info to work with.  Just because we don't see her 
standing in XX #20 doesn't mean she can't.

And, yes, I XX #20 started out by giving me the impression that it was 
picking up right after #19, but Sage's line "remember California?" made 
me change my mind -- and convinced me that Claremont, too, was writing 
this issue to take place where it should, after the XXX run.

Let's wait for XX #21-23 to come out before we jump to conclusions, shall 
we?  It'll only be another two months.

> Actually, I didn't base my placement on that newspaper date.  I placed 
the end of XXX 2 in October *before* I noticed that newspaper date.  I 
just mentioned that as a happy coincidence (or maybe not a coincidence...;))

Why so far ahead, then?  We know Storm can walk as of X #132 ... what makes 
you place this so far ahead?  The snowstorm?

> I can't see evidence that Claremont intended Storm's condition in XX 20 
as a "relapse."

Like I said -- let's wait for XX #21-23 to give us some ACTUAL information.  
All we saw was Storm curled up on the floor.

> My placement of XX 20 as a flashforward

You mean a flashBACK?  Or do you mean XXX #2 pp.19-22 as a flashforward?

> was based on my reading of a logical progression of events in the lives 
of Ororo, Logan, and Warren.

The way I read it, Storm and Logan's chronologies could go either way.  
And Warren was only in ONE issue ... what "logical progression of events 
in his life" do you mean?  His appearance could be slotted in ANYwhere.  
Why does it need to be AFTER UX #417?

> But I will review your sequencing and get back to you, probably in a 
new thread.

Please do.  I'm wondering how on earth you can interpret XXX #2 pp.19-22 
to be SO FAR AHEAD, given that the proper conditions exist from just before 
UX #415-onwards...

> By the way, I picked up Chamber #1 and #3 in a bargain bin yesterday.  
Now I have all but issue #4.

Yeah, that's the one I'm missing, too.  Foo.

> Based on what I see, I've moved #1-#3 (and the beginning of #4) to late 
August

Works for me ... what about the Cyclops appearance in #1, though?  Where 
does this fall on his timeline -- between X #128 and X #131?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Initial reaction to XXX/XX...and Chamber too
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 13, 2003 at 21:31:09:
In Reply to: Re: Initial reaction to XXX/XX...and Chamber too
posted by Jeph! on January 13, 2003 at 10:37:44:

>> Let's wait for XX #21-23 to come out before we jump to conclusions, shall 
we?  It'll only be another two months.

Sounds like a plan.  Besides events in other current X books may help too.

> > But I will review your sequencing and get back to you, probably in a 
new thread.

> Please do.

Plan on it, but again, part of this resolution will depend on how current 
plot threads go.

>   Based on what I see, I've moved #1-#3 (and the beginning of #4) to late 
August

> Works for me ... what about the Cyclops appearance in #1, though?  Where 
does this fall on his timeline -- between X #128 and X #131?

Possibly, or between Order #6 (July) and New X-Men #128 (August).  Cyclops' 
appearances in Chamber #1 and New X-Men #128 are close to one another, and 
final timing may involve our interpretation of the passage of time between 
Darkstar's death and funeral.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Chamber, Wolvie, and Storm.
Posted by Jeph! on January 13, 2003 at 23:35:56:
In Reply to: Re: Initial reaction to XXX/XX...and Chamber too
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 13, 2003 at 21:31:09:

Hey, does anyone remember that reality ahow "The Chamber"?  Yeah, that was 
bad.

> > >  Based on what I see, I've moved #1-#3 (and the beginning of #4) to 
late August

> > Works for me ... what about the Cyclops appearance in #1, though?  Where 
does this fall on his timeline -- between X #128 and X #131?

> Possibly, or between Order #6 (July) and New X-Men #128 (August).  Cyclops' 
appearances in Chamber #1 and New X-Men #128 are close to one another, and 
final timing may involve our interpretation of the passage of time between 
Darkstar's death and funeral.

And THAT depends on where we place XU #39/2, which in turn is affected by 
how the "Schism" XX arc turns out (and whether Storm EVER adopts the costume 
seen in that story)...

Wow, looks like we should just shelve this whole discussion for two months, 
eh?  ;)

As a parting shot, I'm willing to believe that a week or more could have 
passed between Darkstar's death and funeral -- given that they were laying 
a Russian national hero to rest in France, obviously some paperwork and 
wrangling needed to be done.  That would leave plenty of room for W2 #177-178 
and #183/2, W:N #1-4, and XU #39/2, which, if happening right after one 
another, could take place in 4-6 days.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Chamber, Wolvie, and Storm.
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 14, 2003 at 21:08:01:
In Reply to: Chamber, Wolvie, and Storm.
posted by Jeph! on January 13, 2003 at 23:35:56:

> > > >  Based on what I see, I've moved #1-#3 (and the beginning of #4) to 
late August

> > > Works for me ... what about the Cyclops appearance in #1, though?  
Where does this fall on his timeline -- between X #128 and X #131?

> > Possibly, or between Order #6 (July) and New X-Men #128 (August).  
Cyclops' appearances in Chamber #1 and New X-Men #128 are close to one 
another, and final timing may involve our interpretation of the passage 
of time between Darkstar's death and funeral.

> And THAT depends on where we place XU #39/2, which in turn is affected 
by how the "Schism" XX arc turns out (and whether Storm EVER adopts the 
costume seen in that story)...

> Wow, looks like we should just shelve this whole discussion for two 
months, eh?  ;)

Well, no matter what we do now, it looks like the discussion will inevitably 
open back up in a couple of months, based on how current plotlines work 
themselves out.

I do plan to come out with a new draft of the calendar before then, though.  
So I do intend to review your previous e-mail.  I have some Spidey and 
Daredevil stuff to deal with too, so bear with me...

> As a parting shot, I'm willing to believe that a week or more could have 
passed between Darkstar's death and funeral -- given that they were laying 
a Russian national hero to rest in France, obviously some paperwork and 
wrangling needed to be done.  That would leave plenty of room for W2 
#177-178  and #183/2, W:N #1-4, and XU #39/2, which, if happening right 
after one  another, could take place in 4-6 days.

Jeph, can you break down the passage of time in the Wolverine issues you 
cite, both W2 and W:N? Also, any other temporal references would help me 
sort this out.  Thanks in advance.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Wolverine and Soldier X
Posted by Jeph! on January 15, 2003 at 00:25:04:
In Reply to: Re: Chamber, Wolvie, and Storm.
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 14, 2003 at 21:08:01:

> Jeph, can you break down the passage of time in the Wolverine issues you 
cite, both W2 and W:N? Also, any other temporal references would help me 
sort this out.  Thanks in advance.

I'll see what I can do -- and I'll likely post it in a new thread.

By the way, did my write-up of "Soldier X" help you understand my concern 
over the Joe Robertson/Irene Merryweather sequences?  At one point you 
suggested a recent placement for Robbie's appearance -- I hope my write-up 
made clear that Robbie's appearance just plain *hasn't happened yet*.

(I'm gathering more evidence for the possibility that the framing sequences 
in SX #1-3 are, in fact, an ALTERNATE future -- one that WOULD have become 
canon IF Darko Macan had stayed on as writer, but now looks unlikely to 
ever dovetail with the rest of the MU.  For one thing, Nathan's letter 
informs us that the last time he's killed anyone in two years was shortly 
after C2 #106.  If future issues of Soldier X and Weapon X show Nathan 
killing baddies left and right, I may have a case here.)

Anyway -- see you soon, in a new thread...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Wolverine and Soldier X
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 15, 2003 at 06:58:50:
In Reply to: Wolverine and Soldier X
posted by Jeph! on January 15, 2003 at 00:25:04:

> By the way, did my write-up of "Soldier X" help you understand my concern 
over the Joe Robertson/Irene Merryweather sequences?  At one point you 
suggested a recent placement for Robbie's appearance -- I hope my write-up 
made clear that Robbie's appearance just plain *hasn't happened yet*.

> (I'm gathering more evidence for the possibility that the framing sequences 
in SX #1-3 are, in fact, an ALTERNATE future -- one that WOULD have become 
canon IF Darko Macan had stayed on as writer, but now looks unlikely to ever 
dovetail with the rest of the MU.  For one thing, Nathan's letter informs us 
that the last time he's killed anyone in two years was shortly after C2 #106.  
If future issues of Soldier X and Weapon X show Nathan killing baddies left 
and right, I may have a case here.)

Actually, I grabbed the first five issues of Soldier X in the same bargain 
bin (a quarter apiece) I got both the Chamber and Vision mini-series.  I've 
only read the first three issues, and the only clue I've encountered to 
placement of the "flashbacks" in these issues is a statement in issue #1 
that it had been "months" since he last saw Blaquesmith.

I see now that the first page in issue #3 is canon (yikes!), but I don't 
know what to make of the Irene and Robbie scenes two years in the future.  
Question: if the future scenes are not the "true" future, but the scenes 
with Nathan are indeed in the real MU present, where does the timeline 
diverge?  Look forward to hearing more from you, Jeph.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Darkstar's death and funeral
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on January 15, 2003 at 15:59:46:
In Reply to: Chamber, Wolvie, and Storm.
posted by Jeph! on January 13, 2003 at 23:35:56:

> As a parting shot, I'm willing to believe that a week or more could have 
passed between Darkstar's death and funeral -- given that they were laying 
a Russian national hero to rest in France, obviously some paperwork and 
wrangling needed to be done.

There are a few points which could suggest a hurried funeral, though:  Why 
was she buried in Paris, rather than in Russia?  Where were her family 
(Vanguard and the Presence) and her former teammates (Winter Guard, Exiles, 
etc.)?  Why didn't even Iceman seem to be there?

--Marc

			*	*	*

Archangel's Hairstyle
Posted by Jeph! on January 11, 2003 at 15:59:15:
In Reply to: Re: X-Treme X-men X-Pose' #2
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 06, 2003 at 14:17:55:

> >Perhaps in the 2-3 weeks that separated UX #413 and 414, he cycled 
through a few different hairstyles before settling on one that went well 
with pink skin.  Yes?  No?

> Warren seems to be back to short hair with effect from the current issue, 
if that helps.

Actually, upon re-reading the "Hope" TPB, I've discovered that Warren had 
the "correct" hairstyle in UX #414-415!  Cropped short, WITH SIDEBURNS ... 
all that was different about XXX #2 was his goofy chin-goatee, which he 
could have grown in two or three days.

This discovery actually SUPPORTS my re-placement of XXX #2 p.19-22 as 
between UX #414 and #415 (farther on down the thread, in the "recent X-Men 
issue timeline..." post).

Thank goodness for Sean Phillips and his no-nonsense rendition of Archangel.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Soldier X
Posted by Jeph! on January 05, 2003 at 02:01:47:

A few thoughts on the "Soldier X" series...

I just read issues #1-5 in one sitting, and discovered that the assumption 
we have -- that the book takes place two years in the future -- is false.  
Yes, issue #1 began two years in the future, and had Irene Merryweather 
receive a letter from Nathan -- but the contents of the letter, the 
adventures that Nathan details therein, are happening in the "now", the 
present-day Marvel Universe.

(For example, in Soldier X #3, Nathan refers to the events of Cable #107 
as "last month".)

The framing sequence of the story, the scenes with Irene and the two SHIELD 
Agents -- THOSE take place two years in the future.  And, given that they're 
the ONLY parts of the book set in the future, I have to ask ... are THEY 
canon?  They're flash-forwards, storytelling devices -- but nothing more.

Has there ever been a book that employed such a technique -- having 
characters "watch" the story from a future vantage point -- where their 
future was validated as "the future of the MU"?  Where the future they 
lived in eventually became the present?  Is there any precedent to assume 
that the future-scenes with Irene WILL ACTUALLY HAPPEN?

Is it possible that the Irene/Joe Robertson/SHIELD Agent Dragonfly segments, 
and the future they take place in, can be considered an ALTERNATE future?

It'd certainly save us the trouble of counting off two Marvel years, and 
dropping a Joe Robertson appearance into the MCP at a decidedly random 
spot...

Anyone?  Thoughts on this?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Soldier X
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 05, 2003 at 03:52:50:
In Reply to: Soldier X
posted by Jeph! on January 05, 2003 at 02:01:47:

We are indeed told that Cable #107 was recent - the problem is that the 
"two years ago" reference was to the events of Cable #106.  It's not 
presently clear where in that two year gap the remaining events happen, but 
it might reasonably be inferred that Nathan must have written his letter to 
Irene fairly recently, and references in the narration to "one month ago" 
must be from the standpoint of the time he wrote the letter.

I note that Nathan is being brought into the cast of Weapon X in a few 
months time, which might help nail things down.

			*	*	*

Re: Soldier X
Posted by DCW3 on January 05, 2003 at 15:02:31:
In Reply to: Soldier X
posted by Jeph! on January 05, 2003 at 02:01:47:

Without having read the series, I can only presume that, if the framing 
sequences indeed take place in the "future", then the intention is for the 
main storyline to eventually "catch up" to the frames. I'd hold off on 
chronologizing the future sequences until such a time as that happens. If 
it becomes clear that the stories never will cross paths, that's when we 
need to start thinking about alternate futures. 

			*	*	*

Re: Soldier X
Posted by Kevin  on January 06, 2003 at 09:38:21:
In Reply to: Soldier X
posted by Jeph! on January 05, 2003 at 02:01:47:

> Has there ever been a book that employed such a technique -- having 
characters "watch" the story from a future vantage point -- where their 
future was validated as "the future of the MU"?  Where the future they 
lived in eventually became the present?  Is there any precedent to assume 
that the future-scenes with Irene WILL ACTUALLY HAPPEN?

While not quite the same, there was the Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty 
Issue 1 story, which was sort of a flash forward story, written in 1998, the 
story was set in the near future, aka "2001".  Those events are canon.  So 
this type of technique has been used before. The only reason I could see the 
events you mentioned as being "non-canon" is if they cancel the series, and 
thus we never hear from Cable again for a few years, thus throwing everything 
in doubt, (a strong possibility of this I hear, judging by sales of the 
comic).

			*	*	*

Re: Soldier X
Posted by Jeph! on January 06, 2003 at 10:43:35:
In Reply to: Re: Soldier X
posted by Kevin  on January 06, 2003 at 09:38:21:

> > The framing sequence of the story, the scenes with Irene and the two 
SHIELD Agents -- THOSE take place two years in the future.  And, given that 
they're the ONLY parts of the book set in the future, I have to ask ... are 
THEY canon?  They're flash-forwards, storytelling devices -- but nothing 
more.

> > Has there ever been a book that employed such a technique -- having 
characters "watch" the story from a future vantage point -- where their 
future was validated as "the future of the MU"?  Where the future they 
lived in eventually became the present?  Is there any precedent to assume 
that the future-scenes with Irene WILL ACTUALLY HAPPEN?

> While not quite the same, there was the Captain America: Sentinel of 
Liberty Issue 1 story, which was sort of a flash forward story, written in 
1998, the story was set in the near future, aka "2001".  Those events are 
canon.  So this type of technique has been used before.

Actually, that IS a good example.  And you're right, the events DID turn 
out to be canon (or canon-LIKE) without much nudging from us, didn't they?

> The only reason I could see the events you mentioned as being "non-canon" 
is if they cancel the series, and thus we never hear from Cable again for a 
few years, thus throwing everything in doubt, (a strong possibility of this 
I hear, judging by sales of the comic).

Actually, Nathan (don't call him Cable!) :) is moving over to the cast of 
"Weapon X" -- so all of his adventures in "Cable" #106-107 and "Soldier X" 
#1-7 will be nicely sandwiched between "Brotherhood" #8 and "Weapon X" v2 
#6, his last and next appearances in other books.

And since we'll NEVER see the two SHIELD Agents again, and we'll PROBABLY 
never see Irene Merryweather again, we can easily add their SX #1-7 
appearances onto the ENDS of their MCP listings without needing to know 
how much time has passed.

Leaving the only problem as "where do I stick this Joe Robertson appearance 
from SX #1?"

Which I guess we'll leave up to the only one who tracks the passage of 
Marvel time, Paul Bourcier.  :)  After about five or six years of real 
life, we should be able to decide that two years have passed in the MU.

Or we could declare those scenes to be an alternate future and be done with 
it. :)

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Soldier X
Posted by Kevin  on January 06, 2003 at 12:19:31:
In Reply to: Re: Soldier X
posted by Jeph! on January 06, 2003 at 10:43:35:

And since we'll NEVER see the two SHIELD Agents again, and we'll PROBABLY 
never see Irene Merryweather again, we can easily add their SX #1-7 
appearances onto the ENDS of their MCP listings without needing to know 
how much time has passed.

I wouldn't count on not seeing Irene Merryweather again, (though I've not 
read the latest adventures of Cable *ahem* Nathan :)) If Nathan makes a 
comeback, (and for some reason he always does) then since Irene was such 
a strong figure in his life, I'd suspect we'll hear from her again. They 
may say that Nathan's title is over, but I bet he gets at LEAST a new 
miniseries a couple years down the road. At that time, then you'll probably 
end up having to judge if sufficent time has passed *aka two years* to 
place the Soldier X series. 

What I'm saying is, you might have a dilemma down the road if Irene shows 
back up as part of a new storyline, and not enought "Real time" has passed 
to equal "two years" of Marvel Time. 

Of course, I haven't read Cable since Joe Casey was writing it, so I may 
not know what the hell I'm talking about.

> Leaving the only problem as "where do I stick this Joe Robertson appearance 
from SX #1?"

> Which I guess we'll leave up to the only one who tracks the passage of 
Marvel time, Paul Bourcier.  :)  After about five or six years of real life, 
we should be able to decide that two years have passed in the MU.

Your solution sounds best to me!  

> Or we could declare those scenes to be an alternate future and be done 
with it. :)

I thought you feared treading into waters where comics get declared 
"Alternate future" or whatever? :)

			*	*	*

Re: Soldier X
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 07, 2003 at 07:18:14:
In Reply to: Re: Soldier X
posted by Jeph! on January 06, 2003 at 10:43:35:

> Actually, Nathan (don't call him Cable!) :) is moving over to the cast 
of "Weapon X" -- so all of his adventures in "Cable" #106-107 and "Soldier 
X" #1-7 will be nicely sandwiched between "Brotherhood" #8 and "Weapon X" 
v2 #6, his last and next appearances in other books.

> And since we'll NEVER see the two SHIELD Agents again, and we'll PROBABLY 
never see Irene Merryweather again, we can easily add their SX #1-7 
appearances onto the ENDS of their MCP listings without needing to know how 
much time has passed.

> Leaving the only problem as "where do I stick this Joe Robertson appearance 
from SX #1?"

> Which I guess we'll leave up to the only one who tracks the passage of 
Marvel time, Paul Bourcier.  :)  After about five or six years of real life, 
we should be able to decide that two years have passed in the MU.

I lost interest in Nathan Summers a while back, and the only issue of 
Soldier X I have is #3 (because I picked it up in a bargain bin for a 
quarter).  That issue has a suspect framing sequence involving Blaquesmith 
in bed with some woman, talking directly to the reader.  Do all Soldier X 
issues have framing sequences that may not be canon?

My inclination is to ignore the framing sequences in issues #1 and #3.  
Would the main story in issue #1 be SX1 or SX 1-FB?  If we ignore the framing 
sequence (at least for now), we might make the reference as SX 1.

Anyway, regarding placement of the Soldier X series:  If, from the standpoint 
of a letter Nathan writes to Irene in Soldier X #3 (a letter written AFTER 
the events of issue #3), C2 107 is "last month," then my tentative placement 
of Soldier X (ar least the first four issues) is in June (after the May 
events of C2 107).  The green trees and grass in Russia shown in SX 3 would 
support this.  And, according to my calculations, Joe Robertson would appear 
in SX 1 sometime between Deadline #2 and Spider-Man: Sweet Charity.  (I'm 
still working on adjusting Spidey's calendar placements.)

I have a favor to ask of someone who has the run of Soldier X.  Would you 
provide me with an issue-by-issue summary, with character appearances and 
temporal references noted?  That would help greatly.  Thanks.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Soldier X
Posted by Administrator on January 07, 2003 at 13:28:06:
In Reply to: Re: Soldier X
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 07, 2003 at 07:18:14:

> My inclination is to ignore the framing sequences in issues #1 and #3.  
Would the main story in issue #1 be SX1 or SX 1-FB?  If we ignore the 
framing sequence (at least for now), we might make the reference as SX 1.

This begs the question: If we are to ignore the framing sequence, how do 
we include the events they're discussing (i.e., the flashback) *in* the 
framing sequence? Is there evidence to suggest that a divergence point 
occurs between the flashback and the framing sequence, as opposed to before 
both the flashback and the framing sequence?

To answer your question, it *is* a flashback, and IMO, should be coded as 
such. To treat it as anything other than a flashback would lead to people 
sending me emails every other day, asking me to clarify why this or that 
story isn't a flashback.

			*	*	*

Flashbacks and Framing Sequences
Posted by Don Campbell on January 07, 2003 at 23:10:32:
In Reply to: Re: Soldier X
posted by Administrator on January 07, 2003 at 13:28:06:

There's something I've been wondering about for a while now. The storyline 
in CAPTAIN AMERICA (Vol. 3) #45-48 was told in an unusual way. Each issue 
began and ended with several pages of a "present day" framing sequence with 
an extensive flashback to events of several days earlier sandwiched in 
between them. How would this be listed in the MCP? For example, Nick Fury 
appeared in the framing sequence and flashback of all four issues. Would 
his chronology list the flashback appearances followed by the framing 
sequence appearances? Or, since they're all part of the same storyline, 
would the issues just be listed without any FB notation? The reason I ask 
is because I've noticed that the entry for "Adam Hauser" just lists him as 
appearing in CA3 45 and CA3 46 even though he only appeared in the flashback 
portion of those issues.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: Flashbacks and Framing Sequences
Posted by Administrator on January 08, 2003 at 17:55:34:
In Reply to: Flashbacks and Framing Sequences
posted by Don Campbell on January 07, 2003 at 23:10:32:

Was it truly a flashback, or was it just a non-linear story (segments out 
of order)? Flashbacks are told from the perspective of a particular character. 
Without going to the books, my memory of the story is that what you're 
referring to as flashbacks were told with an omniscient narrator perspective, 
and as such, I wouldn't treat them as a flashback.

			*	*	*

Re: Flashbacks and Framing Sequences
Posted by Don Campbell on January 09, 2003 at 12:26:26:
In Reply to: Re: Flashbacks and Framing Sequences
posted by Administrator on January 08, 2003 at 17:55:34:

I see your point. After reading your posting, I dug out those issues and 
went over them carefully and you're right. The various "past time" events 
are told from an omniscient narrator perspective but there is a "flashback" 
feel to them. I'll try to explain what I mean below but it may get a bit 
tedious. Sorry.

1) Captain America #45 has a present day framing sequence on pages 1, 2 
and 22. The rest of the issue is composed of five different segments from 
six to five days ago. The thing that makes it look like a flashback is the 
two-page spread on pages 2 and 3. The left third of that spread is about 
the "present day" Nick Fury and Dum Dum Dugan getting ready for a memorial 
service and the right third is set in "Louisiana, six days ago." What makes 
it look like a flashback is the middle third which is a close-up of Nick 
Fury's head that overlaps the right third. It gives the impression that we 
readers are looking into his head and seeing his memories of what brought 
him to his current state of sadness. Of those five past segments, most are 
told from the omniscient narrator perspective (ONP) you mentioned but one 
of the Nick Fury segments is a bit different. The narrator in that segment 
is Nick Fury himself but the narrative, which is in the present tense, reads 
like Nick's thoughts only without the traditional thought balloons. By the 
way, thought balloons do not appear anywhere throughout the whole storyline.

2) Captain America #46 has a present day framing sequence on pages 1, 2 and 
22. The rest of the issue is composed of three different segments from four 
days ago. The thing that makes it look like a flashback is the two-page 
spread on pages 2 and 3. The top half of that spread shows Sharon Carter 
with Nick and Dum Dum at the memorial site and the bottom half shows Cap 
scuba diving off the coast of Louisiana. Sharon's image is super-imposed 
over the left third of the bottom half which, again, gives the impression 
that she is remembering the past events we are being shown. As in the 
previous issue, Cap's two past segments are narrated by him in the present 
tense and the narration reads like his thoughts at the time.

3) Captain America #47 has a present day framing sequence on pages 1, 2 and 
22. The rest of the issue is composed of five different segments from three 
days ago. The left two-thirds of the two-page spread on pages 2 and 3 shows 
Namor arriving and talking the the Avengers who have preceded him there. 
However, his last bit of dialogue for the segment ("--that recent events 
brought us to this point") is placed within the right third of the spread 
which shows Cap falling from the Helicarrier "above the Gulf of Mexico, 
three days, twenty-one hours ago." This gives the impression that Namor is 
about to recount those events. And while all of the past segments are ONP 
with none of the earlier "thought-like" narratives, there is one interesting 
transition scene. Page 21 is set in the past and shows Captain America 
looking at the Red Skull and his just-revealed ally, Hate-Monger, but page 
22 is set in the present and shows the assembled Avengers reacting to Namor's 
revelation that "Hauser was Hate-Monger all along." The transition supports 
the idea that the past segments are depictions of what Namor has been 
telling the Avengers. Would that count as a flashback?

4) Captain America #48 has a present day framing sequence on pages 1-3 and 
18-22. The rest of the issue is a single segment from three days ago aboard 
the SHIELD Helicarrier. On pages 2 and 3 some of the Avengers ask those who 
were involved to "fill in the blanks" about what happened on the Helicarrier 
and Iron Man, Nick Fury and Namor begin to tell them about the Hate-Monger. 
It is at that point (page 4) that the past segment begins. Page 17 ends in 
a typical flashback style, with the last panel having wavy borders, the 
comic book version of the shimmering screen that TV shows often use to 
distinguish flashbacks from present-time events.

Anyway, that's why I feel (felt?) that CA #45-48 contained extensive 
flashbacks. If I'm wrong (which seems likely) and the storyline was actually 
just told in a "non-linear" style, how would it be recorded in the MCP? For 
example, Nick Fury appeared in all of the present-day scenes and at least 
one of the past segments in each issue. Would his chronology list each issue 
once (for the past segments in which he appeared) and then follow that up by 
listing all four issues again (to account for his appearances in all of the 
present-day scenes)? Or would each issue just be listed once? Hey, this is 
almost the exact same question I asked last time, just without any mention 
of a FB notation.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: Flashbacks and Framing Sequences
Posted by Administrator on January 09, 2003 at 18:29:31:
In Reply to: Re: Flashbacks and Framing Sequences
posted by Don Campbell on January 09, 2003 at 12:26:26:

> Anyway, that's why I feel (felt?) that CA #45-48 contained extensive 
flashbacks. If I'm wrong (which seems likely) and the storyline was actually 
just told in a "non-linear" style, how would it be recorded in the MCP? For 
example, Nick Fury appeared in all of the present-day scenes and at least 
one of the past segments in each issue. Would his chronology list each 
issue once (for the past segments in which he appeared) and then follow 
that up by listing all four issues again (to account for his appearances 
in all of the present-day scenes)? Or would each issue just be listed once? 

Check out the end of Nick Fury's chronology for a hint. Each issue would be 
listed twice.

			*	*	*

Re: Flashbacks and Framing Sequences
Posted by Don Campbell on January 10, 2003 at 09:46:17:
In Reply to: Re: Flashbacks and Framing Sequences
posted by Administrator on January 09, 2003 at 18:29:31:

> > Anyway, that's why I feel (felt?) that CA #45-48 contained extensive 
flashbacks. If I'm wrong (which seems likely) and the storyline was actually 
just told in a "non-linear" style, how would it be recorded in the MCP? For 
example, Nick Fury appeared in all of the present-day scenes and at least 
one of the past segments in each issue. Would his chronology list each issue 
once (for the past segments in which he appeared) and then follow that up by 
listing all four issues again (to account for his appearances in all of the 
present-day scenes)? Or would each issue just be listed once? 

> Check out the end of Nick Fury's chronology for a hint. Each issue would 
be listed twice.

Okay, I see what you mean. I should have looked over the Nick Fury chronology 
more carefully before using him as an example. I guess I was so stuck on the 
idea that the past segments from CA3 #45-48 were flashbacks and that the 
chronology for "Adam Hauser" (who appeared only in those past segments) had 
no flashbacks listed for him that I assumed the chronologies for other 
characters from that storyline were similarly "mistaken." But now I see that 
I was the one who was wrong all along. *sigh* Ah well, I've certainly wasted 
enough time on this non-existent error. I apologize for wasting your time as 
well.

Just so I'm not completely wrong about this whole topic, I have to point out 
that Sharon Carter and Iron Man both appear in CA3 46 in both the past and 
present segments so their chronologies should each list CA3 46 twice. Of 
course, this will look strange until the MCP catches up to and adds any of 
their more recent appearances (as it has already done for Nick Fury) but 
what can you do?

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: Flashbacks and Framing Sequences
Posted by Administrator on January 10, 2003 at 17:29:59:
In Reply to: Re: Flashbacks and Framing Sequences
posted by Don Campbell on January 10, 2003 at 09:46:17:

> I apologize for wasting your time as well.

You didn't waste anyone's time. You asked a valid question, and gave us 
the opportunity to clear up some misunderstandings. Thanks.

			*	*	*

Soldier X #1-5 write-up
Posted by Jeph! on January 08, 2003 at 00:35:32:
In Reply to: Re: Soldier X
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 07, 2003 at 07:18:14:

> I have a favor to ask of someone who has the run of Soldier X.  Would you 
provide me with an issue-by-issue summary, with character appearances and 
temporal references noted?  That would help greatly.  Thanks.

Here you go, Paul -- hope this clears up your confusion about the framing 
stories, the recap pages, and where in time the Joe Robertson appearance in 
#1 might go.

Soldier X #1-5
There are two stories at work here  one, set two years after C2 #106, 
detailing Irene Merryweather reading an extended letter from Nathan while 
two SHIELD agents attempt to track him down, and two, the story that Nathan 
tells  his adventures spanning the two years in-between CA #107 and Irene's 
time period.  For all intents and purposes, that story is a flashback.

Also, each issue has an opening "recap page" where a character talks directly 
to the audience.  These pages are merely a goofy version of the text recap 
page that's in every other Marvel book, and are not meant to be taken as 
canon.

----

Soldier X #1
Sept. (July) 2002
"Dear Irene"

We open with Irene Merryweather, working at the Daily Bugle.  Joe Robertson 
begins to chew her out about slacking off work to continue her search for 
Cable, and reminds her that she hasn't heard from him in two years.  He 
seems to have disappeared.  Robbie makes Irene cover a sumo tournament, and 
there she encounters two comedy-value SHIELD agents tailing her.  These 
agents say that they almost caught up to Nathan once, in Moscow, but they 
lost him again.  They are interrupted by a group of thugs intent on 
kidnapping Irene -- as well as a cross-dressing sumo, who saves her, and 
slips her a CD, with a letter from Nathan.  At home, she plays the CD, and 
begins to hear Nathan's story

Since we last saw Nathan in C2 #107, the metal of his arm has started 
breaking down and returning to flesh. He was drawn to Egypt by an anonymous 
letter, and there he met two soldiers displaced in time by war  the concept 
of war as a single, time-spanning entity.  They entered one war, and exited 
through other ones, centuries later.  After spending some time with them, 
talking about a soldier's search for purpose once his war has ended, Nathan 
was startled to discover his mentor, Blaquesmith, alive and well.

Appearances:

-- Framing story  Global Airlines jet from Cleveland to New York, Daily 
Bugle offices, and the Sumo NYC Basho:
Irene Merryweather
Joe "Robbie" Robertson
Irene's friend Helen
SHIELD Agent Dragonfly
SHIELD Agent Gilbert Jordan

-- Flashback story  Abu Simbel temple in Egypt:
Nathan (don't call him Cable) Summers
Nefer, an ancient Egyptian charioteer
Kazimierz, a Polish Hussar from 400 years ago
Omar, a member of the Egyptian Tourist Police
Baba, a friend of Omar

-- Flashbacks-within-flashbacks (detailing the time-displaced soldiers' 
entrances into the modern era.  Both FBs appear to be several years ago, 
as the two soldiers' gray hair is still fully black in both panels):

#1  Kazimierz  (I can't tell which war this is supposed to be.)
#2  Nefer  (A tank with a Jewish symbol is in the background.)

Temporal references:

"The explosion at Kazakhstan" was "two years ago" according to Irene.  
However, the SHIELD agent killed in Kazakhstan was "over two years ago", 
according to Agent Gilbert Jordan.  Both events refer to C2 #106, and I'm 
going with the more accurate "over two years ago" reference.

Nathan says in his letter that he hasn't written to Irene in "more than 
two years" (and, indeed, Robbie says that Irene hasn't heard from him "since 
that explosion at Kazakhstan")  Nathan also says that he hasn't "killed a 
man in almost that long".  Since we see him killing people as late as SX #4, 
we can infer that his adventure in SX #1-5 come close to the beginning of 
the two-year-plus gap.

Nathan says that Blaquesmith disappeared "months ago"  a reference to C2 #94.

The main story, the Irene sequence, takes place over what I presume to be 
one day, well into the evening.  The flashback sequence with Nathan also 
takes place over one day, more than two years prior, also well into the 
evening of that day.  No discernable weather patterns in either case.  What 
season is "sumo season" for sports enthusiasts?

----

Soldier X #2
Oct. (Aug.) 2002
"Moscow Nights"

We open with SHIELD Agents Jordan and Dragonfly digging through Cable's 
SHIELD file in Bethesda.  They complain that it's too large, and joke about 
starting over and renaming it "Soldier X".  Meanwhile, in the past (the 
continuation of Nathan's narrated letter), Blaquesmith and Nathan have 
traveled to Moscow.  As they eat at a fine restaurant, a fast food place 
across the street explodes.  Blaquesmith gives Nathan a mission: find 
Magdalena, a young Russian girl with healing powers.  Nathan tracks down 
her father, Oleg, who is being roughed up by the Armenian mob  they also 
want to find the girl.  Oleg tells Nathan how Magdalena's healing powers 
surfaced, and how her mother is now selling the girls' services as a healer 
in their home village of Krasnaya Polyana.  The mob attacks Oleg's 
apartment, and Nathan blows up their car.  He and Oleg head off to Krasnaya 
Polyana

Appearances:

-- Framing story  the SHIELD paperwork vault in Bethesda, MD
Gilbert Jordan
Dragonfly
"Tommy the Torturer", a SHIELD interrogation specialist  BTS  (I have no 
idea if this is a reference to a pre-existing character  but I expect not.)

-- Flashback story - Moscow
Nathan Summers
Blaquesmith
Geo  BTS  (SX #4 reveals that Geo blew up the O'Reilly's fast food 
restaurant)
Oleg
The Armenian mob: Arto, Karo, Durak, and at least seven others

-- Flashback-within-flashback  Krasnaya Polyana, Russia
Magdalena
Zoya, Magdalena's dog

Temporal references:

The framing sequence occurs over  few minutes, soon after the framing 
sequence in SX #1 (SHIELD has just finished interrogating the thugs arrested 
in the Basho).  The SHIELD agents have traveled from NYC to Maryland.  The 
day after SX #1, I would assume.

The flashback sequence takes place over (presumably) one evening in Moscow.  
Nathan and Blaquesmith have traveled there from Egypt, so it's presumably  
at the VERY least  the next day after SX #1-FB.  Nathan's arm-metal has 
dissolved considerably, though, since issue #1  his fingers are now 
exposed  so it could be a bit longer then that.

Magdalena's flashback-within-a-flashback begins in the recent past, and 
details the first occurrence of Magdalena's mutant power, as she heals 
her dog.  It's fall weather in this scene.  We then cut to a winter scene, 
snow on the ground and a long, long line of people, waiting outside 
Magdalena's apartment for their turn to be healed.  I'd say this FB spans 
anywhere from one to five months in the fall and winter of the past year.

----

Soldier X #3
Nov. (Sept.) 2002
"The Virgin of Krasnaya Polyana"

Nathan and Oleg travel to a train station just outside Krasnaya Polyana to 
retrieve Magdalena and stop her mother's exploitation of her healing gift, 
but Oleg, afraid of the Armenian mob, stays behind at the train station.  
Nathan leaves him behind and, stealing a bicycle, makes his way to the 
church where the girl is healing.  Meanwhile, in the ongoing framing 
sequence, we learn that Joy Henderson, the SHIELD agent killed in C2 #106, 
was Jordan's girlfriend, and that his search for Nathan  which was going 
on even back in the time of the FB sequences  is bordering on a vendetta.  
The two watch a tape of the events at the Krasnaya Polyana church  as 
Magdalena's healing appears to be taking a lot out of her.  Nathan flies 
in through the roof of the church and scoops up Magdalena, but is hit and 
knocked down by an ugly man with a bionic arm  and the camera goes dead.

Appearances:

-- Framing story  the SHIELD paperwork vault in Bethesda, MD
Dragonfly
Gilbert Jordan
Charlene, a strong-attractive-woman type SHIELD agent

-- Flashback story  into Krasnaya Polyana, Russia
Nathan Summers
Oleg
Vera, Magdalena's mother
Magdalena (this issue's framing sequence establishes her to be 13, if 
anyone cares  heck, at this rate, with no last name, she won't even get 
an MCP entry)
Father Dimitri, Magdalena's uncle (Dimitri is his first name  I just 
called him "Father Dimitri" to show his title.  He likely won't get an 
MCP entry either.)
Geo

Temporal references:

The framing sequence takes place, assumedly, on the same day as SX #2  
again, it only lasts a few minutes.  The flashback sequence takes place 
"fourteen hours by train from Moscow"  one can assume that it occurs the 
day after SX #2-FB, which finishes up at night.  It takes place in under 
an hour  however long it takes Nathan to ride from the train station to 
the Krasnaya Polyana church by bicycle.

Also, Nathan's encounter with Jackie Singapore  C2 #107  is referenced 
as "just last month".

----

Soldier X #4
Dec. (Oct.) 2002
"Geo-Logic"

The Armenian mob has caught up to Oleg, and bring him to the church.  
Meanwhile, Nathan fights Geo  an embittered old man with an oversized 
metal arm, who the mob is mistakenly blaming for killing the men that 
Nathan killed in SX #2.  As the mob confronts Nathan and Geo outside 
the church, the sick people inside overhear them talking about taking 
the girl.  They panic, and rush Magdalena, demanding to be healed  and, 
overcome by them all, her heart stops.  However, as Nathan picks her up, 
somehow her healing talent reverses and siphons some of his life-energy, 
bringing her back to life.  As the crowd reacts in shock, Nathan makes a 
break for it with Magdalena, along with the priest Dimitri, who has had 
enough of Magdalena's mother exploiting her.  Outside, Geo grabs Oleg and 
the mob boss, Arpoun, and the six of them pile into an old truck and drive 
off for the safety of someplace called Saint Lenin

Appearances  Krasnaya Polyana, Russia and surrounding area:

Oleg
Nathan Summers
Geo
Magdalena
Vera
Father Dimitri
Papken Gharamanukian (name revealed on the Recap Page of SX #5)
the rest of the Armenian mob  Arpoun, Peklar, Kapriel, and at least nine 
others

Temporal references:

Probably a good fifteen minutes, picking up right where last issue left 
off.  By the way, please note that there is NO framing sequence in this 
issue, or in #5  although there is the usual running narration from 
Nathan's letter to Irene, the entire action of both issues takes place in 
one time period  the period we've BEEN designating as "flashback" time.  
Should we consider the whole of both issues to be giant flashbacks?  I say 
no, simply to avoid confusion -- but since the "Nathan's letter" narration 
persists, and in context IMPLIES that the entire story is being "told" from 
a future vantage point, I figured I'd raise the possibility.  What does 
everyone else think?

----

Soldier X #5
Jan. 2003 (Nov. 2002)
"The Siege of Saint Lenin"

Taking refuge at Saint Lenin  an old factory where an artist used to work 
on blending Communist and religious iconography  Nathan watches as the 
factory is surrounded by both pilgrims and the Armenian mob.  Magdalena 
seems to have changed  as she discovered that her gift allows her to draw 
healing energy from others as well as to give it, she has become more cold 
and bitter.  She relates how her dog was stoned to death after its 
"resurrection" at her hands.  Meanwhile, outside, the Armenian mob tortured 
Magdalena's mother, hoping the screams will draw someone out of the factory. 
Geo confronts Nathan, questioning his need for "missions" to fulfill his 
life, his need to be a hero  and, after a scuffle where Nathan disassembles 
Geo's metal arm, he leaves the factory to confront the mob  with his TK 
shield turned off.

Appearances  Saint Lenin factory, near or in Krasnaya Polyana, Russia:
Nathan Summers
Magdalena
Oleg
Geo
Vera
Father Dimitri
Papken Gharamanukian
the rest of the Armenian mob  Peklar, Kapriel, Arpoun, and at least seven 
others

Flashback  Krasnaya Polyana
Zoya, Magdalena's dog

Temporal references: The issue takes place over about half an hour, at 
most.  It seems to take place a day or two after SX #4  the clouds indicate 
that it's just after sunrise, and sleeping pilgrims are seen waking up next 
to smoldering campfires outside the factory, but since Nathan didn't think 
to bring any food or supplies, it's unlikely that the siege has continued 
for too long.  Dimitri is seen bringing some canned food to Arpoun, 
though  so there is SOME.  It's hard to tell, but I'm guessing that it's 
no more than three days, maximum, since SX #4.  Still no discernable weather 
clues  but a big storm breaks at issue's end.

I have no idea when the flashback takes place  presumably shortly after 
Zoya's resurrection in SX #2-FB  but, since it's just a single panel of a 
dog having rocks thrown at it, it really doesn't matter.

This issue, like last issue, has no framing sequence, although it does have 
the running "Dear Irene" narration.

----

And, since I have yet to find issue #6, there you have it for now.  Hope that 
helps, Paul.  Let me know if you have any questions.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Tatsu'o chronology error
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on January 06, 2003 at 23:25:33:

Just came across this error:  The chronology says Tatsu'o (Japanese 
crimelord) has appeared behind the scenes in UNCANNY X-MEN #389-390, but 
the correct issues are #289-290 (BTS).

--Marc 

			*	*	*

JENNIFER KALE...KALUU...KANG
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 07, 2003 at 19:15:19:

new entries marked **

KALE, JENNIFER
M/TU 68
** DRSTR2 41
M-T2 10

KALUU
**ST 148/2-FB
**ST 147/2
**ST 148/2
**ST 149/2
**ST 150/2
<<DRSTR2 81 --  Kaluu is not in DRSTR2 81. At best (and I think this is 
stretching) it might be considered a BTS entry. Kaluu was banished to Limbo 
in ST 150. The destruction of the Book of Vishanti in DRSTR2 81 freed him>>

ST2 8/2
**ST 9/2
**ST 10/2
**ST 11/2
**ST 12/2-BTS
**ST 13/2
**ST 14/2
**ST 15/2
**ST 16/2
**ST 17/2

KANG THE CONQUEROR

Better heads than mine must have determined that these Kang appearances 
are different alternate time displaced Kangs or whatever but nonetheless..

A 294 through to A 297, A 300 and FF 323 to FF 325   have Kang appearences

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent 
piece of information engineering! 

			*	*	*

Re: JENNIFER KALE...KALUU...KANG
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 07, 2003 at 19:17:38:
In Reply to: JENNIFER KALE...KALUU...KANG
posted by Arthur Stein on January 07, 2003 at 19:15:19:

> KALUU

The last nine entries should read ST2  not ST

			*	*	*

When?
Posted by Lord Holocaust on January 08, 2003 at 22:35:22:

Dear Administrator,

Just trying to figure this out: What year did the Fantastic Four appear in 
the Marvel Universe?

What year is it now in the Marvel Universe?

BTW, maybe many has asked you this (sorry) but where is your chronology 
after the appearance of the FF? 

Cheers!

			*	*	*

Re: When?
Posted by Sean Curtin on January 09, 2003 at 19:58:00:
In Reply to: When?
posted by Lord Holocaust on January 08, 2003 at 22:35:22:

The comics being published now are happening now, and the FF first appeared 
ten years ago.  Marvel works on a sliding timescale, where things in the past 
happened X amount of time ago regardless of how long ago it was published; 
right now, the FF first appeared in 1993, and next year they'll have first 
appeared in 1994.  (I advise not thinking too hard about it.)

-- 
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: When?
Posted by Lord Holocaust on January 09, 2003 at 20:04:28:
In Reply to: Re: When?
posted by Sean Curtin on January 09, 2003 at 19:58:00:

So, the 1964 debut of the FF happened in 1993 in our timeline?

			*	*	*

Re: When?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 09, 2003 at 21:47:35:
In Reply to: Re: When?
posted by Sean Curtin on January 09, 2003 at 19:58:00:

> The comics being published now are happening now, and the FF first appeared 
ten years ago.  Marvel works on a sliding timescale, where things in the past 
happened X amount of time ago regardless of how long ago it was published; 
right now, the FF first appeared in 1993, and next year they'll have first 
appeared in 1994.  (I advise not thinking too hard about it.)

There are other theories out there.  I, for one, don't subscribe to the 
sliding timescale approach, but prefer to think of FF1 as having occurred 
in 1961 of the Marvel Universe and the "now" of the MU being about 1980 or 
so.  Just don't expect the MU of 1980 to look like the real world 1980 did -- 
technology and pop culture move along more quickly in a universe where time 
is "slowed down" relative to ours.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: When?
Posted by Kevin  on January 10, 2003 at 07:44:35:
In Reply to: Re: When?
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 09, 2003 at 21:47:35:

And furthermore, I maintain that it has to be more than 10 years. I suspect 
it's getting close to 15 years since FF1 by now.  You can't cram all of 
these events into the span of 10 years.  It's just not logical! :)

			*	*	*

Marvel Time & the Lost Generation
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 10, 2003 at 10:51:54:
In Reply to: Re: When?
posted by Sean Curtin on January 09, 2003 at 19:58:00:

Sean Curtin spake:

> The comics being published now are happening now, and the FF first appeared 
ten years ago.  Marvel works on a sliding timescale, where things in the past 
happened X amount of time ago regardless of how long ago it was published; 
right now, the FF first appeared in 1993, and next year they'll have first 
appeared in 1994.  (I advise not thinking too hard about it.)

Since this sliding scale creates a gap between the early 60's and FF #1, 
John Byrne used this opportunity to introduce characters that came before 
the FF in the miniseries MARVEL: THE LOST GENERATION.  I find the whole 
concept of Marvel Time distasteful, prefering to think that Franklin 
Richards is messing with spacetime subconsciously.  Nevertheless, I 
thoroughly enjoyed the mini (which has the novelty of being able to be 
read backward or foreward), and you can likely find it on the cheap in a 
bargain bin or on eBay.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Time & the Lost Generation
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 10, 2003 at 20:17:37:
In Reply to: Marvel Time & the Lost Generation
posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 10, 2003 at 10:51:54:

Don't get me started on Byrne...;)  That mini-series was indeed an enjoyable 
read, but it did introduce that whole sliding-scale notion which IMHO mucks 
with what we had understood to make more logical sense regarding the passage 
of Marvel time.  You also pointed out the other obstacle to logical time 
progression -- Franklin Richards.  You and I are on the same page about his 
mucking around with reality, although (as I've mentioned before) my suspicion 
is that he keeps himself perpetually seven (for some psychological reason) 
while making it seem natural in the eyes of everyone else in the MU!

As I noted in the other post, there isn't any way only ten years have passed 
since FF1.  I throw out the ten-year rule along with the sliding timeline 
rule.  We're talkin' about twenty years.  So what's wrong with a 36-year-old 
Peter Parker?  That ain't old (not to a geezer like me anyway).

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Time & the Lost Generation
Posted by Sean Curtin on January 11, 2003 at 23:17:05:
In Reply to: Re: Marvel Time & the Lost Generation
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 10, 2003 at 20:17:37:

> You also pointed out the other obstacle to logical time progression -- 
Franklin Richards.  You and I are on the same page about his mucking around 
with reality, although (as I've mentioned before) my suspicion is that he 
keeps himself perpetually seven (for some psychological reason) while making 
it seem natural in the eyes of everyone else in the MU!

I've never bought the "Franklin makes time go slower" theory; it seems 
excessively fannish and, well, pointless, solving a problem that doesn't 
really exist in the first place, and creating *more* problems in the 
process.  (Why Franklin, anyways?  There are plenty of other cosmic-level 
beings out there, some of whom might have a motivation to do something 
like that.)

> As I noted in the other post, there isn't any way only ten years have 
passed since FF1.  I throw out the ten-year rule along with the sliding 
timeline rule.  We're talkin' about twenty years.  So what's wrong with 
a 36-year-old Peter Parker?  That ain't old (not to a geezer like me 
anyway).

How do you get twenty years out of abolishing the sliding timeline?  With 
that, either all Marvel stories are set in the past (lose the old problem 
for a new one), or you're using an extended sliding timescale.

Going all the way and switching the MU to real time seems pretty self-
defeating--people want it for the sake of realism, but having Peter Parker 
spontaneously age from late-20s to 55 or Xavier from late-50s to 80 is 
hardly the way to go.

-- 
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Time & the Lost Generation
Posted by Dimadick on January 12, 2003 at 07:13:10:
In Reply to: Re: Marvel Time & the Lost Generation
posted by Sean Curtin on January 11, 2003 at 23:17:05:

> > As I noted in the other post, there isn't any way only ten years have 
passed since FF1.  I throw out the ten-year rule along with the sliding 
timeline rule.  We're talkin' about twenty years.  So what's wrong with 
a 36-year-old Peter Parker?  That ain't old (not to a geezer like me 
anyway).

> How do you get twenty years out of abolishing the sliding timeline?  With 
that, either all Marvel stories are set in the past (lose the old problem 
for a new one), or you're using an extended sliding timescale.

> Going all the way and switching the MU to real time seems pretty self-
defeating--people want it for the sake of realism, but having Peter Parker 
spontaneously age from late-20s to 55 or Xavier from late-50s to 80 is 
hardly the way to go.

Hmmm...Realism in a world who has plenty of living gods and cosmic entities 
superior to the gods?I like it more for the interesting characters and the, 
occasionaly, interesting stories rather than its "realism".Doesn't anybody 
else?

Concerning the character's ages:With all the powers they have,having them 
aging in slower rates doesn't strech probability all that much.If it works 
for Wolverine, a centurie or more old, why wouldn't it work for other super-
powered characters?

And what is the problem of setting the stories in the past?Having them being 
contemporary would make them superior to having them happening twenty years 
ago?I don't think they would loose any strength.

Admittingly I never liked the time-sliding, time-cranching theories and Paul 
Bourcier's version makes more sence to me but would you mind explaining your 
own preferences on the subject?

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Time & the Lost Generation
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 12, 2003 at 17:24:47:
In Reply to: Re: Marvel Time & the Lost Generation
posted by Dimadick on January 12, 2003 at 07:13:10:

> Concerning the character's ages:With all the powers they have,having them 
aging in slower rates doesn't strech probability all that much.If it works 
for Wolverine, a centurie or more old, why wouldn't it work for other super-
powered characters?

Yes, but non-super-powered supporting characters such as J. Jonah Jameson 
and Aunt May haven't aged 40 years since Spidey debuted either.  

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Time & the Lost Generation
Posted by Dimadick on January 13, 2003 at 10:38:43:
In Reply to: Re: Marvel Time & the Lost Generation
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 12, 2003 at 17:24:47:

> Yes, but non-super-powered supporting characters such as J. Jonah Jameson 
and Aunt May haven't aged 40 years since Spidey debuted either.  

I don't know about Jonah's age but a character who looks and acts like him 
appears in Marvels #1 as a friend of Phil Sheldon.He is not called by name 
but this youth newspaper reporter has the ambition of directoring a newspaper.
He also doesn't like the "Marvels" because they overshadow guys like him and 
Phil.If this is Jonah in his twenties on 1939 he might not be more than in 
his sixtie's in Marvel's 1980's(twenty years and more after FF#1-1961).Not 
too old.(That is one of the reasons I think your estimations make more 
sence).

As for May wasn't she an old woman with a heart condition even back in 
Amazing Spiderman #1?How older could she look in order for someone to 
determine her aging process?She already looked like a skeleton in the recent 
"Death in the Family" storyline in Peter Parker-Spiderman.By the way any 
official estimation of her age?Estimations by fans I have been reading list 
her as anything between 90 and a 100 years old(of course most of this fans 
asked for her death).

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Time & the Lost Generation
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 13, 2003 at 21:18:43:
In Reply to: Re: Marvel Time & the Lost Generation
posted by Dimadick on January 13, 2003 at 10:38:43:

> I don't know about Jonah's age but a character who looks and acts like him 
appears in Marvels #1 as a friend of Phil Sheldon.He is not called by name 
but this youth newspaper reporter has the ambition of directoring a newspaper.
He also doesn't like the "Marvels" because they overshadow guys like him and 
Phil.If this is Jonah in his twenties on 1939 he might not be more than in 
his sixtie's in Marvel's 1980's(twenty years and more after FF#1-1961).Not 
too old.(That is one of the reasons I think your estimations make more sence).

If we consider JJJ to be about 50 when Spidey debuted, that would put him 
at about 70 now.  Believable, considering that curmudgeon would never retire.

> As for May wasn't she an old woman with a heart condition even back in 
Amazing Spiderman #1?How older could she look in order for someone to 
determine her aging process?She already looked like a skeleton in the recent 
"Death in the Family" storyline in Peter Parker-Spiderman.By the way any 
official estimation of her age?Estimations by fans I have been reading list 
her as anything between 90 and a 100 years old(of course most of this fans 
asked for her death).

If we place May at about 65 when Spidey debuted, she'd be about 85 now.  
Also plausible.

But those Marvel writers and editors better take note and be careful to 
start slowing time in the MU lest the characters age beyond whatever their 
"shelf lives" are.  ;)

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Time & the Lost Generation
Posted by Jeph! on January 13, 2003 at 23:39:13:
In Reply to: Re: Marvel Time & the Lost Generation
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 13, 2003 at 21:18:43:

> If we consider JJJ to be about 50 when Spidey debuted, that would put him 
at about 70 now.  Believable, considering that curmudgeon would never retire.

> If we place May at about 65 when Spidey debuted, she'd be about 85 now.  
Also plausible.

> But those Marvel writers and editors better take note and be careful to 
start slowing time in the MU lest the characters age beyond whatever their 
"shelf lives" are.  ;)

Yeah, THAT'S likely to happen.

If anything, May's getting YOUNGER these days.  I think what's much more 
likely is that any calendar based on "reality" is going to have to make 
more and more concessions as the Marvel juggernaut rolls on, until it 
eventually snaps under its own forced contradictions.

Either that, or one of us is going to have to get a JOB at Marvel, and 
quietly steer things the way we want to see 'em go...  ;)

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Time & the Lost Generation
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 14, 2003 at 21:10:06:
In Reply to: Re: Marvel Time & the Lost Generation
posted by Jeph! on January 13, 2003 at 23:39:13:

> If anything, May's getting YOUNGER these days.  I think what's much more 
likely is that any calendar based on "reality" is going to have to make more 
and more concessions as the Marvel juggernaut rolls on, until it eventually 
snaps under its own forced contradictions.

Naw, by that time, the whole MU will be declared a dream in the mind of some 
Ultimate Marvel character  ;)

> Either that, or one of us is going to have to get a JOB at Marvel, and 
quietly steer things the way we want to see 'em go...  ;)

Heh, heh, heh...

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Time & the Lost Generation
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 12, 2003 at 17:22:22:
In Reply to: Re: Marvel Time & the Lost Generation
posted by Sean Curtin on January 11, 2003 at 23:17:05:

> > You also pointed out the other obstacle to logical time progression -- 
Franklin Richards.  You and I are on the same page about his mucking around 
with reality, although (as I've mentioned before) my suspicion is that he 
keeps himself perpetually seven (for some psychological reason) while making 
it seem natural in the eyes of everyone else in the MU!

> I've never bought the "Franklin makes time go slower" theory; it seems 
excessively fannish and, well, pointless, solving a problem that doesn't 
really exist in the first place, and creating *more* problems in the 
process.  (Why Franklin, anyways?  There are plenty of other cosmic-level 
beings out there, some of whom might have a motivation to do something like 
that.)

The Franklin theory is at least partly tongue-in-cheek.  ;)

> > As I noted in the other post, there isn't any way only ten years have 
passed since FF1.  I throw out the ten-year rule along with the sliding 
timeline rule.  We're talkin' about twenty years.  So what's wrong with a 
36-year-old Peter Parker?  That ain't old (not to a geezer like me anyway).

> How do you get twenty years out of abolishing the sliding timeline?  With 
that, either all Marvel stories are set in the past (lose the old problem 
for a new one), or you're using an extended sliding timescale.

The MU moves more slowly than our real world.  Otherwise Peter Parker would 
be 56.  But my theory is that it moves forward just like our world does -- 
not on the sliding timescale that requires us to believe that a given event 
happened in, say, 1961, then in, say, 1991, all because our frame of 
reference is continually moving forward.  I subscribe to the notion that 
once an event happens in the MU at a given moment on a Marvel Time calendar,
it shall henceforth always be referenced as having occurred at that moment.

> Going all the way and switching the MU to real time seems pretty self-
defeating--people want it for the sake of realism, but having Peter Parker 
spontaneously age from late-20s to 55 or Xavier from late-50s to 80 is 
hardly the way to go.

You may misunderstand.  Mu theory: FF #1 occurred in 1961, Marvel Time.  
Current stories are occurring about twenty years after that event, about 
1981 Marvel Time.  Our reference point in real-world 2003 is irrelevent.  
No 56-year-old Peter (real time) AND no FF #1 in 1983 (twenty years ago 
to us; sliding timescale).

--Paul

			*	*	*

Daredevil calendar placement
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 09, 2003 at 21:54:15:

Picking up on a previous thread...

Did we come to some resolution about how to place DD2 26-37 -- with his 
unmasking between the Kang War and Cap's unmasking?  (April-August?)

I picked up issue #41 because of the 25-cent price.  There isn't much in 
the way of temporal references there (jackets and green trees in Manhattan -- 
September?), but I wonder if clues from DD2 38-40 might help with the whole 
deal.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil calendar placement
Posted by Kevin Wasser on January 10, 2003 at 07:42:10:
In Reply to: Daredevil calendar placement
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 09, 2003 at 21:54:15:

Well, one newspaper date does not neccesarily set a date in stone, so I 
suppose one could indeed ignore the April 18th date when Daredevil was 
supposedly unmasked.  

I had more of a problem with moving CAP's date away from Easter, but you've 
provided reasons why it probably must be done, so unless someone can 
propose a better solution, I say what you've proposed is probably for the 
best.

As for which comes first: CAP or DD's unmasking, I'm still up in the air 
about it.  The two books and events have not crossed, (or been referenced 
anywhere else in the MU. It's almost like CAP and DD are in their own 
little worlds).  If we go by publication date, then DD's unmasking came 
first, (April), while CAP's came next, (mid summer-I forget when).

I could give you references for issues 38-40, unless someone else wants 
to jump on that. It's a simple three part story, (though I suspect it'll 
have long range implications).  I remember there's snow on the cover of 
issue 38, but that should probably be ignored, (since snow didn't appear 
in any of the 3 issues.

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil calendar placement
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 10, 2003 at 20:08:25:
In Reply to: Re: Daredevil calendar placement
posted by Kevin Wasser on January 10, 2003 at 07:42:10:

> Well, one newspaper date does not neccesarily set a date in stone, so 
I suppose one could indeed ignore the April 18th date when Daredevil was 
supposedly unmasked.  

If no one objects, let's go with that later calendar placement.  It's 
still just a matter of figuring out how much later than April the unmasking 
occurred.

> I had more of a problem with moving CAP's date away from Easter, but 
you've provided reasons why it probably must be done, so unless someone 
can propose a better solution, I say what you've proposed is probably for 
the best.

I'll reflect this adjusted Cap placement in the new revision of the 
calendar.  But hey, the July 4 reference still holds.

> As for which comes first: CAP or DD's unmasking, I'm still up in the air 
about it.  The two books and events have not crossed, (or been referenced 
anywhere else in the MU. It's almost like CAP and DD are in their own 
little worlds).  If we go by publication date, then DD's unmasking came 
first, (April), while CAP's came next, (mid summer-I forget when).

I'm flexible on this, so if we find other references that help with calendar 
placement of DD3 26-37, independent of Cap, I'd consider that more than the 
timing of DD vs. Cap.

> I could give you references for issues 38-40, unless someone else wants 
to jump on that. It's a simple three part story, (though I suspect it'll 
have long range implications).  I remember there's snow on the cover of 
issue 38, but that should probably be ignored, (since snow didn't appear 
in any of the 3 issues.

That would be great, Kevin.  Perhaps a clue can be found in those three 
issues.  Thanks!

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil calendar placement
Posted by Kevin  on January 11, 2003 at 11:21:35:
In Reply to: Re: Daredevil calendar placement
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 10, 2003 at 20:08:25:

> > I had more of a problem with moving CAP's date away from Easter, but 
you've provided reasons why it probably must be done, so unless someone 
can propose a better solution, I say what you've proposed is probably for 
the best.

> I'll reflect this adjusted Cap placement in the new revision of the 
calendar.  But hey, the July 4 reference still holds.

Yes,the July date still holds, (which helps), and Easter is a flexible 
date anyway, (am I correct that it somtimes falls in March, and sometimes 
in April?) so what the hell, move it as lower on the calender as needed. 
Maybe because of the Kang War, the citizens of Earth couldn't celebrate 
Easter as usual, so after Kang was overthrown the Vatican (with the 
support of Christian nations) set a new temporary date for later in the 
year?  

On the other hand, wasn't there a specific reference that said in issue 
one of Cap. 1 vol 4, that said, (when the scene changed) "7 months later" ? 
Well, 7 months after Sept. 11th, would be April. But once again, we can 
ignore that, (one date doesn't set something in stone).

> > As for which comes first: CAP or DD's unmasking, I'm still up in the 
air about it.  The two books and events have not crossed, (or been 
referenced anywhere else in the MU. It's almost like CAP and DD are in 
their own little worlds).  If we go by publication date, then DD's 
unmasking came first, (April), while CAP's came next, (mid summer-I 
forget when).

> I'm flexible on this, so if we find other references that help with 
calendar placement of DD3 26-37, independent of Cap, I'd consider that 
more than the timing of DD vs. Cap.

Sounds good to me.

> > I could give you references for issues 38-40, unless someone else 
wants to jump on that. It's a simple three part story, (though I suspect 
it'll have long range implications).  I remember there's snow on the 
cover of issue 38, but that should probably be ignored, (since snow didn't 
appear in any of the 3 issues.

> That would be great, Kevin.  Perhaps a clue can be found in those three 
issues.  Thanks!

> --Paul

Okay, expect it in a few days, (I can't see it would be that difficult to 
come up with temp. references for these issues-it's another court drama).

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil calendar placement
Posted by Antonio Gavio on January 13, 2003 at 10:48:54:
In Reply to: Re: Daredevil calendar placement
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 10, 2003 at 20:08:25:

Before you settle on dates for Daredevil's unmasking I need to ask you why 
not May instead of June. I'm more than halfway through that Spidey chronology 
and things seem to indicate that June is a little too far ahead a palce for 
DD's unmasking.

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil calendar placement
Posted by Kevin  on January 13, 2003 at 14:28:59:
In Reply to: Re: Daredevil calendar placement
posted by Antonio Gavio on January 13, 2003 at 10:48:54:

Hey, I just wanted to comment that I've almost finished the chronology for 
those 3 issues, and it looks like, (from solid temporal references) that 
this storyline starts in Late July.  

Since the end of the last storyline, (using the time references, as shown 
on my last chronology for DD) ended on June 7, if you move that 1 month 
down, (making DD's unmasking in May, to avoid a mess with the Kang War) that 
puts the story ending on July 7th. That would be perfect, since the next 
storyline would pick up in late July.

I'll elaborate more tomorrow, when I post my chronology findings.  Gotta 
run for now.

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil calendar placement
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 13, 2003 at 21:12:28:
In Reply to: Re: Daredevil calendar placement
posted by Kevin  on January 13, 2003 at 14:28:59:

> > Before you settle on dates for Daredevil's unmasking I need to ask you 
why not May instead of June. I'm more than halfway through that Spidey 
chronology and things seem to indicate that June is a little too far ahead 
a palce for DD's unmasking.

> Hey, I just wanted to comment that I've almost finished the chronology 
for those 3 issues, and it looks like, (from solid temporal references) 
that this storyline starts in Late July.  

> Since the end of the last storyline, (using the time references, as shown 
on my last chronology for DD) ended on June 7, if you move that 1 month 
down, (making DD's unmasking in May, to avoid a mess with the Kang War) 
that puts the story ending on July 7th. That would be perfect, since the 
next storyline would pick up in late July.

> I'll elaborate more tomorrow, when I post my chronology findings.  Gotta 
run for now.

You know, guys, a DD unmasking in May could actually work better, with no 
overlap with the heart of the Kang War, which I would place between DD2 
30-FB pg. 20 (early April) and DD2 26-FB pg. 8-22 (early May).  And things 
are okay with Spidey's chronology, too.  I'll wait to hear from Kevin about 
DD2 38-40 before laying it out.  (Note to self: Deadline #1-4 will need to 
be moved back a month to before the unmasking, but after the Kang War ends.)

Good work, Antonio and Kevin.  Keep it comin'!

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil calendar placement
Posted by Antonio Gavio on January 13, 2003 at 22:02:57:
In Reply to: Re: Daredevil calendar placement
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 13, 2003 at 21:12:28:

About those Deadline issues, I just checked issue number 4 and didn't find 
any reference to Daredevil's unmasking; there's a guy telling Ben Urich 
something like 'good job uncovering that rat' and Urich responding 'it was 
hard to do it' or something along those lines but, unless I missed something, 
there's no mention to DD. So you may not need to move those issues. I'll 
take another look to make sure.

			*	*	*

DD chronology for #38-40!
Posted by Kevin  on January 14, 2003 at 13:15:35:
In Reply to: Re: Daredevil calendar placement
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 13, 2003 at 21:12:28:

> You know, guys, a DD unmasking in May could actually work better, with 
no overlap with the heart of the Kang War, which I would place between DD2 
30-FB pg. 20 (early April) and DD2 26-FB pg. 8-22 (early May).  And things 
are okay with Spidey's chronology, too.  I'll wait to hear from Kevin about 
DD2 38-40 before laying it out.  (Note to self: Deadline #1-4 will need to 
be moved back a month to before the unmasking, but after the Kang War ends.)

From what you said above, that would place the Kang War "Proper" between 
Mr. Silke and Richard Fisk putting a bounty on Matt Murdock's head, and 
the end of the trial against that corporation, which Murdock won. Kinda 
wierd, but yes, it works. (I bet the jury was ready to get on with their 
lives after having the trial delayed by having the Earth conquered :))

Okay, here's the chronology for DD Issues 38-40. For the first half of 
issue 38 it is easy to determine the passage of time. For the second half, 
along with all of Issue 39, I can't tell how much time passes. These scenes 
feature the prep for the trial, and the actual trial happens throughout all 
of Issue 39. Issue 40 is easy to tell: it happens on the last day of the 
trial.

Let's take a look:

DD#38
Written by Brian Michael Bendis
Art by Manuel Gutierrez

Appearances: Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, Hector Ayala aka (the White Tiger), 
Iron Fist, Luke Cage.

Synopsis: First segment: 

Narrative caption reads: The Bronx, Last Night.  We see two teenage thugs 
breaking into a Pawn shop. One kid is focusing on stealing a television set, 
along with other hardware, while the other playfully picks through a 
selection of video games.  Suddenly, a cop appears in the doorway telling 
them to freeze. He calls for backup, and while momenatarily focusing on one 
perp, the other tosses a stereo knocking the cop to the ground. The hood 
then picks up the cops gun, (he dropped it stunned) and shoots the cop in 
the face. Then, a dark, spandex wearing hero bursts through the door, and 
starts to attack them. One thug throws the TV he was holding at this hero, 
(who we think is DD) and the two punks run out the back door.  Two more 
cops burst into the door behind the hero, and since the two thugs are gone, 
and he's left there standing holding a T.V. they think he did it. We see 
the hero in the light now: it's The White Tiger, a B Grade hero, (I remember 
seeing him in several 70's comics teaming up with Spiderman, but it's been a 
looooong time since he's been a hero). He's in trouble with the law now.

Cut to new scene. Narrative caption reads: "Hell's Kitchen, Today"

It's the following night.  DD is meeting with Luke Cage and Iron Fist on a 
rooftop.  They're trying to convince Matt to take The White Tiger as a 
client. They show Matt the White Tiger's face all over the cover of the 
Daily Bugle.  Matt comments that he's busy preparing for a trial with the 
Daily Globe, and this is to high profile of a case for him to take.  Besides, 
it'll be a media circus he warns. The media is already having him put on 
trial in the press.  But Luke warns him that the Tiger is innocent, and he 
needs the best damn lawyer. He urges Matt to go meet him in jail.

Cut to what is probably the next day. Matt and Foggy go visit Hector Ayala 
at Riker's island.  Hector says he's innocent. He says he came out of 
retirement just the night before, and Matt asks him why he's come out of 
retirement. Hector says he doesn't know.  Matt takes the case.

Cut to a scene which is perhaps the next night.  Luke Cage and Iron Fist 
burst into an apartment run by some hispanic hoods, (similar to the ones 
that broke into the pawn shop). Luke picks up his cell phone, and Matt's 
on the other end. He hears one of the thugs heart beating eratically, and 
can tell he knows something. Luke questions that man, who admits he knows 
the two that broke into the pawn shop.  But he says they've fled town. He 
says they're from Chicago, and that they were only in town visiting some 
friends, but now they've fled.  Matt can tell they're telling the truth.

The scene cuts to where Matt is on the phone with Luke. He hangs up, and 
him and Foggy discuss their possibilities in this case.

The scene cuts to sometime later, (perhaps the next day)?  Hector's wife 
Melissa is in Matt's office, telling Matt she's filing for divorce. Her 
and Hector had agreed that he'd hung up the costume forever. She says he 
broke his vow, and now she wants a divorce. Matt says she can't do that 
now. She knows he's innocent. During the trial, Matt needs her to appear 
at the trial in the courtroom, to be there for her husband. He warns if 
she isn't standing by her man, that'll taint the jury's view of him.

Cut to another scene, where we see Jury selection beginning. At the end of 
Jury selection, the Judge calls Matt and the D.A., (a man who looks strangely 
like Al Roker from the Today show) a Mr. Delacourt, into his office. The 
judge warns them not to turn this into a media circus. He then dismisses 
them.

After the exit the Judge's office, on the way down the elavator, the D.A. 
tells Matt he admires him for taking this case. He says Matt can stand up 
in court and proclaim the glory of superhero's without having to risk his 
own hide. He says "See you Monday, for the Trial of the Century".

References:  almost everyone outside is wearing short sleave shirts. There's 
a full moon in the background on the night Luke Cage and Iron Fist ask for 
DD's help.  In the judge's office, the Judge warns Matt that their better 
not be any shenanigans, like there was "last year", a direct reference to 
the trial from DD#20-25.

DD#39
Written by Brian Michael Bendis
Art by Manuel Gutierrez

Appearances: Matt, Foggy, Hector Ayala, Mr. Fantastic, Dr. Strange, Luke 
Cage, Iron Fist, Jessica Jones, (that's the Alias Girl), Robert Diamond, 
(some guy who had an amulet like The White Tiger's...must be a subplot 
character from the White Tiger's earlier days).

Synopsis:  Over the course of this issue, we see most of the trial happen. 
There are several cuts to different scenes in the trial, as different 
people take the stand.  I am unable to determine how much time passes, but 
it could be weeks, (like any real life trial).

I'll just give the highlights of the trial:

The Prosecution and the Defense give their opening remarks. The Prosecution 
gets to call their witnesses to the stand first. They call a bunch of cops 
who arrived on the scene, all who say they saw the White Tiger standing 
over the body of the dead cop, with a TV in his hands.  They next call the 
forensic workers, who show that even though there were no powder stains on 
the White Tiger's costumed gloves, (from firing a gun) it might be possible 
that the White Tiger fired the gun telepathically, or some other way using 
his magic amulet, (in case you don't know what the White Tiger's powers 
are, he has a magical amulet that was passed down from generation to 
generation, and in the hands of the "chosen descendant" it gives him the 
strength and speed of all the other's combined who have possessed the amulet 
in ages passed.  No telepathic powers so he could fire a gun. When Matt asks 
the forensic expert if they consulted with a magical expert, (Dr. Strange, 
it seems, the NYPD has often used in the case of mystical detective work), 
they said Doc Strange was unavailable, and they came to their conclusions 
without him.

Then Matt calls his witnesses. He calls Mr. Fantastic who vouches that 
superhero's have a hard life.  The D.A. catches Mr. Fantastic in a slip up, 
and gets him to admit that some superhero's turn bad, (he gets Mr. Fantastic 
to bring up Namor).

Then Matt calls Dr. Strange to the stand, who explains that he has examined 
the amulet, and it has no telepathic powers, and it only gives the 
appropriate descendant increased strength and speed.  Dr. Strange says he 
was sorry he was out of town, but the Forensic experts conclusions are 
wrong.  (I suspect since forensics was dealing with a cop killer, they 
didn't pursue details as hard as they should have).

Matt calls Luke Cage, Iron Fist, the woman from Alias, and that Robert 
Diamond guy to the stand as character witnesses.  The D.A. asks if Matt 
has any intention of calling Daredevil to the stand. Matt and Foggy stare 
at him in shock. The Judge orders that comment stricken from the record.  

Matt finally calls Hector Ayala to the stand. Hector, on the stand, 
explains he gave up superheroics "a couple years ago" because it proved 
to be not as rewarding as he thought. He also mentions that him and his 
wife's financial situation wasn't helping either. 

When it's the D.A.'s turn to question Hector, the D.A. grills him over 
his personel life.  Hector admits that yes, he and his wife had fought 
the night he donned the costume again to go out and fight crime.  He gets 
Hector to admit that yes, they were arguing over finances again.  All 
this personal life badgering upsets Melissa, (Hector's wife) who had been 
in the audience, playing the nice wife, and she gets up and hastily leaves 
the courtroom.  Hector sees her leaving and his heart breaks, and the D.A. 
continues his badgering.

He asks why Hector thought the police couldn't handle a simple burglary.  
Hector ,(whose anger is rising) explains that if the police could handle 
a burlary, then they wouldn't need him.  The D.A. says, "Oh, so you think 
you're above the law, is that it?  

Here's the exact quote the D.A. says next "How far does this superiority 
complex of yours go?"

Hector: "What?"

D.A.: "So much so that you'll step over their dead bodies to take whatever 
you think you deserve from life?"

And this sets Hector off, who yells:

"Don't you talk to me of what I deserve and what I don't!  If I wanted to 
I could take whatever I wanted--whatever I wanted!  All you people do is 
gossip and point fingers!  You don't know how much I sacrificed for you!  
You don't know!!  You don't know!!"

Of course, this isn't what Matt and Foggy desired. They told him to keep 
his cool on the stand, but he blew it. I think this was a powerful scene, 
so I figured I'd share it.

References:  In the opening remarks, the D.A says about Hector "On July 
19th, at around 11:44 pm, dressed as his alter ego, the White Tiger, 
attempted to rob Uncle's Pawn Shop in the Bronx"

So the opening burglary scen from issue 38 happened on July 19th.

DD#40
Written by Brian Michael Bendis
Drawn by Terry Dodson

Appearances:  DD, Foggy, Hector Ayala, Luke Cage, Iron Fist.

Synopsis:  The issues starts with the day opening for closing remarks.  
The jury then goes to the jury room to begin debating. Matt goes up on the 
roof of the courthouse. Foggy brings him lunch there, saying they can 
probably go back to their office and wait.  Matt says there's no need. 
He can tell using his powers that the jury will decide soon. He tells 
Foggy he's listening to the jury debate right now. "They hate him" he 
says.  Only a couple of the jurors show any real interest in sorting 
through the facts. The jury foreman is preasuring them to stop wasting 
time. One of the jurors explains that her son got caught car jacking by 
Spiderman, (so of course she wants to throw the book at a superhero).

A few minutes later on the rooftop, Matt gets a page to come back inside. 
The jury is through deliberating.  Hector's wife Melissa is no where in 
the courtroom.  Apparanently, she couldn't handle this anymore.  She's 
left him.  Inside, the jury finds him guilty.  Foggy tells Hector that 
they'll win on appeal, but Hector is extremely distressed, saying "You 
promised me!" to Matt.  Two bailiff's come over and start to escort Hector 
to jail, but he's too upset.  He tosses one of the bailiff's to the ground.  
More bailiff's charge, and a general brawl ensues.  Matt's about to rush 
forward to calm Hector down, to get involved in the fight, but Foggy warns 
Matt he can't...his own identity could be exposes by any fancy DD antics.  
Then...A security guard drops his gun...and Hector picks it ups and runs 
out of the courtroom, tears in his eyes.  

During this time, while Matt's senses are working overtime, he picks up 
on a teenager in the court who's not moving, (everyone else is fleeing).  
In fact, Matt realizes he's trying not to be noticed.  Matt suddenly 
realizes this kid is important.  

Meanwhile, Hector makes it to the front steps of the courthouse outside.  
All the reporters are down below, looking up at him with their camera's 
clicking.  Luke Cage and Iron Fist are in the crowd, (they were either 
talking to the press, or wading through them to get back inside the 
courthouse).  The bailiff's and security guards catch up and demand Hector 
drop the gun.  Hector is stunned by all that is happened.  He makes a 
move the cops think is to open fire on the crowd...and the cops shoot him 
repeatedly.  Matt rushes out of the courthouse and picks up Hector in his 
arms on the courthouse steps. Hector Ayala, the White Tiger, is dead.

Cut to later that night.  Inside some dark apartment, a teenager is 
sniffling to himself.  He's watching the news, which keeps showing Hector's 
death over and over again.  DD makes an appearance.  The kid begs DD not to 
kill him.  (this is the teenager DD spotted in court today, of course).  DD 
gets the teenager to confess without any effort-this kid is showing true 
remorse.  He says it was the other kid who shot the policeman.  All's he 
wanted their was to steal some video games. He didn't know his partner would 
waste the cop.  They fled to Chicago, but the other kid O.D.ed on drugs, and 
so he fled back to New York, and that's when he saw all the news coverage.  
He says he planned on standing up in court, but he never got the courage.  
DD says "You know what you have to do..."

On the final page, later that night we see the kid turning himself into the 
police.  The End.

References: This issue happens over the course of one day. It's raining that 
night when the kid turns himself into the police.

			*	*	*

Re: DD chronology for #38-40!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 14, 2003 at 21:40:01:
In Reply to: DD chronology for #38-40!
posted by Kevin  on January 14, 2003 at 13:15:35:

As always, Kevin, good work!  Something told me there was some chronological 
key in this story that would help us place the previous story arc, and bingo, 
there it is ("July 19th.")  Yes, it's a reference that could be ignored in 
the face of countervailing evidence, but it actually seems to support other 
references we've been amassing from the MU. :)

I hesitate to ask for more, but it looks like I'll need to break these issues 
into components for calendar placement.  Can you provide page/panel ranges 
for the segments involving different days?  Much obliged.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: DD chronology for #38-40!
Posted by Kevin  on January 15, 2003 at 08:34:58:
In Reply to: Re: DD chronology for #38-40!
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 14, 2003 at 21:40:01:

Well, uh, yeah I can give you page/panel ranges for the segments...but I 
can't clearly tell which amount to different days. Now that Bendis has 
resumed "linear" storytelling, the story is filled with the usual pitfalls 
of not being able to always tell how much time has passed inbetween segments. 
The first part of Issue 38 is easy, because Bendis uses 2 narrative captions, 
one for the burglary scene, the other for the meeting between Luke Cage, Iron 
Fist and DD.  The rest of the issue deals with preparing for trial.

Issue 39 contains most of the trial, which could amount to the passes of 
weeks as different witnesses are called to the stand.

Issue 40, happens on the last day of the trail. So all's I know is that the 
story starts on July 19th.  But how much time passes, beats me.  But yeah, 
I can give you page/panel segments citations. It'll probably be tomorrow, 
(since I don't have my issues in front of me now).

			*	*	*

Some comments on the White Tiger
Posted by Dimadick on January 15, 2003 at 04:48:55:
In Reply to: DD chronology for #38-40!
posted by Kevin  on January 14, 2003 at 13:15:35:

The name sounded familiar so I surched for some info on the guy.Admittingly 
he didn't excactly need a promise to his wife to keep him out of the super-
heroe business.

His identitie became public knowledge thanks to Lightmaster.The results of 
having no secret identitie were exibited in The last story arc featuring him
(Spectacular Spider-Man #49-#52).A would-be slayer of super-heroes named 
Gideon Mace working for Maggia decided to make White Tiger his first target.

He murdered

1)Nestor Ayala(Hector's father).
2)Maria Ayala(Hector's mother).
3)Filippo Ayala(Hector's brother).
4)Awilda Ayala(Hector's sister).

All in their own home.Awilda actualy survived enough to die in her brother's 
arms.Hector's mission of revenge didn't go well.He was repeatedly shot and 
hospitalized.Mace was taken care of by Spider-Man.Hector decided to retire.

Hmmm...what he sacreficed to be a heroe was his own identitie and his entire 
familie.His death because of his heroic activities is a fitting end for the 
character.

			*	*	*

Re: Some comments on the White Tiger
Posted by Kevin  on January 15, 2003 at 08:27:16:
In Reply to: Some comments on the White Tiger
posted by Dimadick on January 15, 2003 at 04:48:55:

Wow, I didn't know all that...admittedly, all I remember of him was seeing 
him in some of the 70's comics I used to read as a young kid, where he teamed 
up with Spiderman.  

But while he was heroic, even in coming out of retirement, I don't think 
this was a heroic fitting end for the character. But that was the point. 
This is a great example I think of what would happen when the heroic life 
of a hero gets destroyed by his everyday life, (financial and marital 
problems) and the public life, (having his image destroyed by the media).

Oh well, enough waxing on philosophically. I must admit, i admire Bendis 
for using old forgotten characters, and I'd like to research the White Tiger 
a little more myself.

			*	*	*

Re: DD chronology for #38-40, now with new and improved CITATIONS!
Posted by Kevin  on January 19, 2003 at 17:26:04:
In Reply to: DD chronology for #38-40!
posted by Kevin  on January 14, 2003 at 13:15:35:

Here's the Chronology for Issues 38 to 40, with some citations. Sorry this 
is late, but we had a huge snowstorm where I live, and I was denied access 
to computers because of it.

> DD#38
> Written by Brian Michael Bendis
> Art by Manuel Gutierrez

> Appearances: Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, Hector Ayala aka (the White Tiger), 
Iron Fist, Luke Cage.

> Synopsis: First segment:  

> Pages 1-6, July 19th Narrative caption reads: The Bronx, Last Night.  We 
see two teenage thugs breaking into a Pawn shop. One kid is focusing on 
stealing a television set, along with other hardware, while the other 
playfully picks through a selection of video games.  Suddenly, a cop 
appears in the doorway telling them to freeze. He calls for backup, and 
while momenatarily focusing on one perp, the other tosses a stereo knocking 
the cop to the ground. The hood then picks up the cops gun, (he dropped it 
stunned) and shoots the cop in the face. Then, a dark, spandex wearing 
hero bursts through the door, and starts to attack them. One thug throws 
the TV he was holding at this hero, (who we think is DD) and the two punks 
run out the back door.  Two more cops burst into the door behind the hero, 
and since the two thugs are gone, and he's left there standing holding a 
T.V. they think he did it. We see the hero in the light now: it's The White 
Tiger, a B Grade hero, (I remember seeing him in several 70's comics 
teaming up with Spiderman, but it's been a looooong time since he's been 
a hero). He's in trouble with the law now.

> Pages 7-9, July 20th Cut to new scene. Narrative caption reads: "Hell's 
Kitchen, Today"

> It's the following night.  DD is meeting with Luke Cage and Iron Fist 
on a rooftop.  They're trying to convince Matt to take The White Tiger as 
a client. They show Matt the White Tiger's face all over the cover of the 
Daily Bugle.  Matt comments that he's busy preparing for a trial with the 
Daily Globe, and this is to high profile of a case for him to take.  
Besides, it'll be a media circus he warns. The media is already having him 
put on trial in the press.  But Luke warns him that the Tiger is innocent, 
and he needs the best damn lawyer. He urges Matt to go meet him in jail.

> Pages 10-12, Probably July 21st Cut to what is probably the next day. 
Matt and Foggy go visit Hector Ayala at Riker's island.  Hector says he's 
innocent. He says he came out of retirement just the night before, and 
Matt asks him why he's come out of retirement. Hector says he doesn't 
know.  Matt takes the case.

> Pages 13-16, Probably July 22nd Cut to a scene which is perhaps the 
next night.  Luke Cage and Iron Fist burst into an apartment run by some 
hispanic hoods, (similar to the ones that broke into the pawn shop). Luke 
picks up his cell phone, and Matt's on the other end. He hears one of the 
thugs heart beating eratically, and can tell he knows something. Luke 
questions that man, who admits he knows the two that broke into the pawn 
shop.  But he says they've fled town. He says they're from Chicago, and 
that they were only in town visiting some friends, but now they've fled.  
Matt can tell they're telling the truth.

> Page 17, Probably July 22nd, same as last scene The scene cuts to where 
Matt is on the phone with Luke. He hangs up, and him and Foggy discuss 
their possibilities in this case.

> Page 18, By this scene, I've lost track of time The scene cuts to sometime 
later, (perhaps the next day)?  Hector's wife Melissa is in Matt's office, 
telling Matt she's filing for divorce. Her and Hector had agreed that he'd 
hung up the costume forever. She says he broke his vow, and now she wants a 
divorce. Matt says she can't do that now. She knows he's innocent. During 
the trial, Matt needs her to appear at the trial in the courtroom, to be 
there for her husband. He warns if she isn't standing by her man, that'll 
taint the jury's view of him.

> Page 19-22, date unknown Cut to another scene, where we see Jury 
selection beginning. At the end of Jury selection, the Judge calls Matt 
and the D.A., (a man who looks strangely like Al Roker from the Today 
show) a Mr. Delacourt, into his office. The judge warns them not to turn 
this into a media circus. He then dismisses them.<p>> After the exit the 
Judge's office, on the way down the elavator, the D.A. tells Matt he 
admires him for taking this case. He says Matt can stand up in court and 
proclaim the glory of superhero's without having to risk his own hide. 
He says "See you Monday, for the Trial of the Century".

> References:  almost everyone outside is wearing short sleave shirts. 
There's a full moon in the background on the night Luke Cage and Iron Fist 
ask for DD's help.  In the judge's office, the Judge warns Matt that their 
better not be any shenanigans, like there was "last year", a direct 
reference to the trial from DD#20-25.

> DD#39
> Written by Brian Michael Bendis
> Art by Manuel Gutierrez

> Appearances: Matt, Foggy, Hector Ayala, Mr. Fantastic, Dr. Strange, Luke 
Cage, Iron Fist, Jessica Jones, (that's the Alias Girl), Robert Diamond, 
(some guy who had an amulet like The White Tiger's...must be a subplot 
character from the White Tiger's earlier days).

> Synopsis:  Over the course of this issue, we see most of the trial 
happen. There are several cuts to different scenes in the trial, as 
different people take the stand.  I am unable to determine how much 
time passes, but it could be weeks, (like any real life trial).

> I'll just give the highlights of the trial:

> Pages 1-4, Trial starts on the following Monday after the final scene 
of issue 38 The Prosecution and the Defense give their opening remarks. 
The Prosecution gets to call their witnesses to the stand first. 

Pages 5-6 They call a bunch of cops who arrived on the scene, all who say 
they saw the White Tiger standing over the body of the dead cop, with a TV 
in his hands.  

Pages 7-11 They next call the forensic workers, who show that even though 
there were no powder stains on the White Tiger's costumed gloves, (from 
firing a gun) it might be possible that the White Tiger fired the gun 
telepathically, or some other way using his magic amulet, (in case you 
don't know what the White Tiger's powers are, he has a magical amulet 
that was passed down from generation to generation, and in the hands of 
the "chosen descendant" it gives him the strength and speed of all the 
other's combined who have possessed the amulet in ages passed.  No 
telepathic powers so he could fire a gun. When Matt asks the forensic 
expert if they consulted with a magical expert, (Dr. Strange, it seems, 
the NYPD has often used in the case of mystical detective work), they 
said Doc Strange was unavailable, and they came to their conclusions 
without him.

There's a scene here I forgot. After the D.A. calls the forensic workers 
as their last witness, we then see on Page 12: Matt is talking to Hector 
in his holding cell. They're discussing how the case is going so far. It's 
the end of the day on which the Prosecution has called it's last witness.  
Matt says he's calling his first witnesses tomorrow. They talk about how 
Hector needs to remain calm on the stand tomorrow. So I guess, all of 
Matt's witnesses make it to the stand the next day, since Hector's the 
last witness he calls to the stand? Guess this trial's moving pretty fast 
after all.

> Pages 13-15 Then Matt calls his witnesses. He calls Mr. Fantastic who 
vouches that superhero's have a hard life.  The D.A. catches Mr. Fantastic 
in a slip up, and gets him to admit that some superhero's turn bad, (he 
gets Mr. Fantastic to bring up Namor).

> Page 16 Then Matt calls Dr. Strange to the stand, who explains that he 
has examined the amulet, and it has no telepathic powers, and it only 
gives the appropriate descendant increased strength and speed.  Dr. 
Strange says he was sorry he was out of town, but the Forensic experts 
conclusions are wrong.  (I suspect since forensics was dealing with a 
cop killer, they didn't pursue details as hard as they should have).

> Page 17 Matt calls 

Panels 1,2,3,and 4 Luke Cage, Iron Fist, the woman from Alias, and that 
Robert Diamond guy to the stand as character witnesses.  The D.A. asks 
if Matt has any intention of calling Daredevil to the stand. Matt and 
Foggy stare at him in shock. The Judge orders that comment stricken from 
the record.  

> Page 18-22 Matt finally calls Hector Ayala to the stand. Hector, on 
the stand, explains he gave up superheroics "a couple years ago" because 
it proved to be not as rewarding as he thought. He also mentions that him 
and his wife's financial situation wasn't helping either. 

> When it's the D.A.'s turn to question Hector, the D.A. grills him over 
his personel life.  Hector admits that yes, he and his wife had fought the 
night he donned the costume again to go out and fight crime.  He gets 
Hector to admit that yes, they were arguing over finances again.  All 
this personal life badgering upsets Melissa, (Hector's wife) who had been 
in the audience, playing the nice wife, and she gets up and hastily leaves 
the courtroom.  Hector sees her leaving and his heart breaks, and the D.A. 
continues his badgering.

> He asks why Hector thought the police couldn't handle a simple burglary.  
Hector ,(whose anger is rising) explains that if the police could handle 
a burlary, then they wouldn't need him.  The D.A. says, "Oh, so you think 
you're above the law, is that it?  

> Here's the exact quote the D.A. says next "How far does this superiority 
complex of yours go?"

> Hector: "What?"

> D.A.: "So much so that you'll step over their dead bodies to take 
whatever you think you deserve from life?"

> And this sets Hector off, who yells:

> "Don't you talk to me of what I deserve and what I don't!  If I wanted to 
I could take whatever I wanted--whatever I wanted!  All you people do is 
gossip and point fingers!  You don't know how much I sacrificed for you!  
You don't know!!  You don't know!!"

> Of course, this isn't what Matt and Foggy desired. They told him to keep 
his cool on the stand, but he blew it. I think this was a powerful scene, 
so I figured I'd share it.

> References:  In the opening remarks, the D.A says about Hector "On July 
19th, at around 11:44 pm, dressed as his alter ego, the White Tiger, 
attempted to rob Uncle's Pawn Shop in the Bronx"

> So the opening burglary scen from issue 38 happened on July 19th.

> DD#40
> Written by Brian Michael Bendis
> Drawn by Terry Dodson

> Appearances:  DD, Foggy, Hector Ayala, Luke Cage, Iron Fist.

> Synopsis: This last issue happens all on the last day of the trial. That 
was simple. The issues starts with the day opening for closing remarks.  
The jury then goes to the jury room to begin debating. Matt goes up on the 
roof of the courthouse. Foggy brings him lunch there, saying they can 
probably go back to their office and wait.  Matt says there's no need. 
He can tell using his powers that the jury will decide soon. He tells 
Foggy he's listening to the jury debate right now. "They hate him" he 
says.  Only a couple of the jurors show any real interest in sorting 
through the facts. The jury foreman is preasuring them to stop wasting 
time. One of the jurors explains that her son got caught car jacking by 
Spiderman, (so of course she wants to throw the book at a superhero).

> A few minutes later on the rooftop, Matt gets a page to come back 
inside. The jury is through deliberating.  Hector's wife Melissa is no 
where in the courtroom.  Apparanently, she couldn't handle this anymore.  
She's left him.  Inside, the jury finds him guilty.  Foggy tells Hector 
that they'll win on appeal, but Hector is extremely distressed, saying 
"You promised me!" to Matt.  Two bailiff's come over and start to escort 
Hector to jail, but he's too upset.  He tosses one of the bailiff's to 
the ground.  More bailiff's charge, and a general brawl ensues.  Matt's 
about to rush forward to calm Hector down, to get involved in the fight, 
but Foggy warns Matt he can't...his own identity could be exposes by any 
fancy DD antics.  Then...A security guard drops his gun...and Hector 
picks it ups and runs out of the courtroom, tears in his eyes.  

> During this time, while Matt's senses are working overtime, he picks 
up on a teenager in the court who's not moving, (everyone else is fleeing).  
In fact, Matt realizes he's trying not to be noticed.  Matt suddenly 
realizes this kid is important.  

> Meanwhile, Hector makes it to the front steps of the courthouse outside.  
All the reporters are down below, looking up at him with their camera's c
licking.  Luke Cage and Iron Fist are in the crowd, (they were either 
talking to the press, or wading through them to get back inside the 
courthouse).  The bailiff's and security guards catch up and demand 
Hector drop the gun.  Hector is stunned by all that is happened.  He 
makes a move the cops think is to open fire on the crowd...and the cops 
shoot him repeatedly.  Matt rushes out of the courthouse and picks up 
Hector in his arms on the courthouse steps. Hector Ayala, the White 
Tiger, is dead.

> Cut to later that night.  Inside some dark apartment, a teenager is 
sniffling to himself.  He's watching the news, which keeps showing Hector's 
death over and over again.  DD makes an appearance.  The kid begs DD not 
to kill him.  (this is the teenager DD spotted in court today, of course).  
DD gets the teenager to confess without any effort-this kid is showing 
true remorse.  He says it was the other kid who shot the policeman.  All's 
he wanted their was to steal some video games. He didn't know his partner 
would waste the cop.  They fled to Chicago, but the other kid O.D.ed on 
drugs, and so he fled back to New York, and that's when he saw all the 
news coverage.  He says he planned on standing up in court, but he never 
got the courage.  DD says "You know what you have to do..."

> On the final page, later that night we see the kid turning himself into 
the police.  The End.

> References: This issue happens over the course of one day. It's raining 
that night when the kid turns himself into the police.

I hope that helps. Let me know if you need anything else.

			*	*	*

DD2 38-41 on the calendar
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 20, 2003 at 13:30:46:
In Reply to: Re: DD chronology for #38-40, now with new and improved CITATIONS!
posted by Kevin  on January 19, 2003 at 17:26:04:

Hey, Kevin...thanks much for the added information.  This helps tremendously.

Here's my take on calendaring DD2 38-40:

DD2 38 pg. 1-6: Friday, July 19
DD2 38 pg. 7-9: Saturday, July 20
DD2 38 pg. 1-12: Sunday, July 21
DD2 38 pg. 13-17: Monday, July 22
DD2 38 pg. 18: anytime in late July or August
DD2 38 pg. 19-22: Friday, August 30 (full moon)
DD2 39 pg. 1-12: Monday, Sept. 2
DD2 39 pg. 13-22: Tuesday, Sept. 3
DD2 40: Wednesday, Sept. 4

Then I have DD2 41 occurring in September.

How does this look?  All the temporal references you noted seem to work 
on this timeline.

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: DD2 38-41 on the calendar
Posted by Kevin  on January 21, 2003 at 08:41:19:
In Reply to: DD2 38-41 on the calendar
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 20, 2003 at 13:30:46:

Yes, I would say that works, until proven otherwise by later issues.  Did 
you see any chronology references for DD 41?  I haven't researched it yet. 
Frankly, since this new issue is part 1 of 5, I'd wait till the end of the 
storyline to fit all of it's pieces together.

Bendis is actually doing a good job of keeping track of time in his own 
comic, so that'll help us out at least.

			*	*	*

Re: DD2 38-41 on the calendar
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 21, 2003 at 21:09:24:
In Reply to: Re: DD2 38-41 on the calendar
posted by Kevin  on January 21, 2003 at 08:41:19:

> Yes, I would say that works, until proven otherwise by later issues.  

Except I messed up the place in DD2 38 where we see a full moon.  But, given 
the date citations, I'll stick with the dates as noted, at least until 
they're contradicted by new evidence.

> Did you see any chronology references for DD 41?  I haven't researched 
it yet. Frankly, since this new issue is part 1 of 5, I'd wait till the 
end of the storyline to fit all of it's pieces together.

DD3 41 shows green grass and trees in Manhattan, jacket weather, and a 
crescent moon.  I picked up DD3 41 because of the price, but I'll need you 
to fill me in on the remaining four issues of the story arc, if you don't 
mind.

> Bendis is actually doing a good job of keeping track of time in his own 
comic, so that'll help us out at least.<p>That should help.

Since things look cool for DD3 20-40, I'm adding them to the postable 
calendar.  Then I have several other matters to consider: your new post on 
the Hulk, Jeph's comments on recent X-Men continuity, and Antonio's comments 
on a reworked Spidey chronology.  Hopefully all these will meld into a 
workable new draft.  (Although I'm still thinking that some knowledge of 
Alias would also make a difference...)

Thanks, Kevin.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: DD2 38-41 on the calendar
Posted by Kevin  on January 22, 2003 at 15:34:28:
In Reply to: Re: DD2 38-41 on the calendar
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 21, 2003 at 21:09:24:

> Except I messed up the place in DD2 38 where we see a full moon.  But, 
given the date citations, I'll stick with the dates as noted, at least until 
they're contradicted by new evidence.

I noticed that immediately after I posted that comment. But oh well, you 
caught it.

> DD3 41 shows green grass and trees in Manhattan, jacket weather, and a 
crescent moon.  I picked up DD3 41 because of the price, but I'll need you 
to fill me in on the remaining four issues of the story arc, if you don't 
mind.

Yes, I'll do the work after the story's progressed a little. Shouldn't be 
a problem.

> Since things look cool for DD3 20-40, I'm adding them to the postable 
calendar.  Then I have several other matters to consider: your new post 
on the Hulk, Jeph's comments on recent X-Men continuity, and Antonio's 
comments on a reworked Spidey chronology.  Hopefully all these will meld 
into a workable new draft.  (Although I'm still thinking that some 
knowledge of Alias would also make a difference...)

Sorry, can't help you with Alias. Don't know nothing about it.  As for 
my comments on the Hulk, I figured you guys already had this worked out, 
and (even though the MCP listing for the Hulk isn't up to date) I figured 
I'd check with you all what the correct sequence or order should be for 
including the Defenders series.   

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil calendar placement
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 14, 2003 at 04:41:52:
In Reply to: Re: Daredevil calendar placement
posted by Kevin Wasser on January 10, 2003 at 07:42:10:

> As for which comes first: CAP or DD's unmasking, I'm still up in the air 
about it.  The two books and events have not crossed, (or been referenced 
anywhere else in the MU. It's almost like CAP and DD are in their own little 
worlds).  

Both unmaskings have been referenced in ALIAS.  The series has run several 
stories showing Jessica Jones as Matt's bodyguard (and indeed, she's there 
in the background in several issues of DD2 in exactly that role).  

A supporting character mentioned Cap's unmasking in passing.  In what I 
take to be a dig at how little anyone cared, Jessica shrugged and basically 
admitted that the news had completely passed her by.  

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil calendar placement
Posted by Kevin  on January 14, 2003 at 09:45:57:
In Reply to: Re: Daredevil calendar placement
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 14, 2003 at 04:41:52:

Judging by the way you made that sound, then she was being a bodyguard 
to Matt when someone told her something like "Hey, did you know Cap's 
secret identity has come out as well?" and she kinda shrugs it off...this 
would be a point in favor of DD's unmasking coming before Cap's.  I'd 
kinda like to see the dialogue from that page, to see exactly what was 
said.  That's help resolve that debate, (or am I the only one debating 
that in my head?)

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil calendar placement
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 14, 2003 at 21:29:54:
In Reply to: Re: Daredevil calendar placement
posted by Kevin  on January 14, 2003 at 09:45:57:

The dialog from Alias sure would help.  Independently of Alias, we seem 
to be finding temporal evidence for DD unmasking before Cap, especially 
given the July 4 date of CA4 4, the July 19 date of DD3 38, and the 
passage of time in those two series (that is, if the Easter reference 
of CA4 1 is dismissed, given Kang War timing).

--Paul

			*	*	*

UX 288 and X 8
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on January 10, 2003 at 16:53:38:

Jubilee's chronology, for example, says:

UX 288
X 8
GR3 26
X 9
GR3 27

However, Bishop meets Forge, Cyclops, Beast and Jubilee for the first 
time in X-MEN (vol. 2) #8, before Jubilee and Forge are among a group 
of X-Men who accompany him to town in #288. 

So I believe the correct order has to be:

X 8
GR3 26
X 9
GR3 27
UX 288

The same would apply to the chronologies of Beast and Cyclops.  (Those 
of Storm, Professor X, Forge and Bishop already have the two issues in 
that order.)

Further, Marvel Girl's chronology says:

UX 288
X 8
XCAL 51-BTS
XCAL 52
UX 288

Since there is no gap in UNCANNY X-MEN #288 that would allow for Bishop's 
first encounters with the X-Men in X-MEN (vol. 2) #8 to take place in-between 
Jean Grey's appearance on page 4 (numbered) of #288 and Bishop's encounter 
with Cyclops and Beast on page 8 (numbered) of the same issue, though, I 
think the first listing of #288 in Marvel Girl's chronology is also a mistake.

--Marc

			*	*	*

MRS. KAPPELBAUM...KARNILLA...NICK KATZENBERG
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 11, 2003 at 11:44:52:

new entries marked **

KAPPELBAUM, MRS.
First name: Anna
**CA 237-FB (16/6  22/3)  up to arriving at the concentration camp
**CA 245-FB (7/5  11/3)  in the camp experience
**CA 237-FB (22/4  27)  rescue by Captain America
**CA 241-FB (10/3)  after rescue
**CA 237
**CA 241
**CA 244
**CA 245
**CA 254
**CA 258
**CA 269
**CA 275
**CA 284
**CA 317 
CA 380

KARNILLA [ASGARDIAN]
T 308
**T@ 14/2
T 318
.. .. .. .. .. 
T 353
**T 354
UX@ 9
.. ..  ..  ..  ..
BLDR 4
**T 367
M/CP 66/4

KATZENBERG, NICK
WOSM 88
**WOSM 89
WOSM 94

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent 
piece of information engineering! 

			*	*	*

FAQ matters
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 11, 2003 at 17:16:41:

Some FAQ comments:

> Q. Why aren't MC2 characters listed?

> Marvel seems to be back-pedaling a little from their previous statements 
that this is the definitive future of the Marvel Universe.

I'm not sure that Marvel ever claimed MC2 was *the* future; they've said 
this about 2099.  In any case, we might just say that the Mainstream 
timeline is the Project's priority and once everything is caught up to 
date, we can get to it.  Alternately, we can throw MC2 books up on the 
Closing the Gap pages.

> Q. Why is your site so slow?

> Frankly, this one leaves me scratching my head. Every time I get a letter 
like this, I take a moment to spin off to various comics-related sites, 
comparing their download time to mine. Speed is relative, and my experience 
has been that I'm getting a pretty good response time from the MCP, relative 
to other sites. The graphics on the web page are extremely limited, in a 
deliberate attempt to cut the download time. If you think the site is slow, 
then maybe it's because there's a lot of information here. Other than that, 
I really don't know what to tell you.

ISPs can make a world of difference in access speeds.  Depending on the 
time of day, there may only be so many users that can process simultaneously, 
regardless of the readiness of the MCP's server.  I find that sometimes 
logging off and back on again can make things run more smoothly.

> Q. How often do you update the MCP?

> We try to make corrections at least once a week (usually on the weekends). 
Sometimes, of course, there's no need to make corrections, and other times, 
there are serious errors, like a bad link, that we'll try to fix immediately.

This may have been true when the FAQ was composed, but quarterly is more 
in step with recent history.  An adjustment here might allay false 
expectations or unnecessary pressure on the Administrator.

> Q. I don't want to waste tim[e] analyzing a book that's not canon. Is 
there any kind of list of book that the Project has already determined are 
outside of continuity? 

> We'll start with this: 

A non-canon list such as this would be great to be able to access as its 
own page, tagged onto the nav bar.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Question about an incident in Peter Parker's childhood
Posted by Dimadick on January 13, 2003 at 10:46:35:

  One of the recent profiles of the "Appendix to the Marvel Handbook" 
features a character and an incident in Peter Parker's younger years that 
hasn't been considered as canon.But does any of you think it would have 
been interesting if it was?:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/westcott.htm

Please read the profile before answering.Do you think this little story 
would add to the personal demons (and characterization)of Peter or does 
it deserves its obscurity?

			*	*	*

Re: Question about an incident in Peter Parker's childhood
Posted by Jeph! on January 13, 2003 at 14:37:44:
In Reply to: Question about an incident in Peter Parker's childhood
posted by Dimadick on January 13, 2003 at 10:46:35:

This isn't exactly answering the the question you'rea asking, but I have 
that issue, and I don't see any reason for it NOT to be considered canon -- 
the fact that it was published as a public service book shouldn't have 
anything to do with it.

As far as I'm concerned, "Spider-Man/Power Pack", and that "event" in 
Peter's life, IS canon.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Storm origin flashbacks
Posted by OnionMan on January 13, 2003 at 16:51:42:

Hi!

I'm trying to write a detailed chronology analysis of the various origin 
flashbacks for Ororo, and I have a few questions that maby you can answer 
for me. I'm used the list on Storm's chronology page as a starting point, 
but some of the entries seem to be out ouf order (or more likely I got 
something mixed up in my research).

The main problem for me is that even though I have most of the issues 
involved, they are swedish reprints, and those unfortunately have the 
annoying habit of omitting pages every now and then.

So basically I would really appreciate any help to fill in the gaps, and 
correct any mistakes I have made. If you happen to know the Page/Panel 
number for these flashbacks, it would be even better... :)

----

STORM 2-FB (pg ??) 
Supposedly this one is about Ororo being born in Harlem, but since i don't 
own the issue that's just a guess.

UX 102-FB (pg 6/6 - 7/3 ?)
Six months after Ororo's birth, her father (David Monroe) accepts an 
extended assignment in Cairo, Egypt, and he and his family is moving there 
from their home in Harlem.

XXM 10-FB
In her earliest childhood, NDare shows Ororo a special ruby-crystal that 
had been in their family for a long time.

UX 265-FB (pg 14/4 - 15/2)
Ororo and her parents Daniel and N'Dare are having a picnic.

UX 96-FB (pg 17/2)
Ororo is walking a street (most likely in Cairo), holding her mothers hand.

UX 102-FB (pg 7/4 - 9/3 ?)
Five years after the Munroes moved to Cairo, the Suez War breaks out. 
French planes are attacking Egypt, and a damaged plane crashes into the 
familys home, killing Ororos parents. She too is buried by debris and 
wakes up next to the dead body of her mother. Ororo slippes back into 
unconsciousness, and upon awakening again the body of her mother is gone. 
Somehow she manages to dig herself out (apparently taking her mothers 
ruby with her), and starts wandering the streets, until she eventually 
is discovered by street urchins who works for master thief Achmed El Gibar, 
who begins training her to be a beggar..

UX 113-FB (pg ??)
Within a year Ororo completes her apprenticeship in beggary. Her master 
Achmed El-Gibar then begins training her night and day in thievery.

UX 117-FB This entry i don't understand. I can't find two flashbacks (see 
below enties) in this issue featuring Ororo, and neither do i see a gap to 
slit the one with Xavier in two parts. Can anyone check to see if this is 
an error in the MCP? If not, i'd like to know what i missed.

UX 113-FB (pg ??)
Ororo Monroe completed her apprenticeship in thievery and became one of 
the best thieves in Cairo.

UX 117-FB (pg 7/2 - 8/6)
Charles Xavier, vacationing in Cairo, Egypt, has his wallet pick-pocketed 
from him by the young thief Ororo Monroe. Using his mutant psychic powers 
to stop the child in her tracks, Xavier retrieves his wallet.

X 60-FB (pg ??)
Itching to prove her skills as a thief, Ororo steal a rare ruby-colored 
gem, the so-called 'heart of eternal darkness'. She does so against Achmed-El 
Gibars direct orders. Only later, it would be discovered that the stone 
contained the essence of the immortal mutant Candra.

UX 113-FB (pg ??)
Achmed El-Gibar pushing hard to turn Ororo in to an escape artist.

M/TU 100/2-FB (pg ??)
No info

UX 102-FB (pg 9 ?)
When Ororo is twelve, she feels an inner need to walk south.

UX 267-FB (pg 8)
After she leaves Cairo, she walks south along the Nile heading for Sudan. 
She naively trusts a man who offers her a ride and is almost raped, before 
she kills him with her knife. As a result, she swears never to take another 
human life.

UX 102-FB (pg 9 - 10 ?)
While journeying across Africa, Ororo discovers that she has strange 
mutant powers which gaive her control over the weather. She walks for 
a year until she reaches the Serengeti Plain, 2000 miles south of Cairo. 
She remains there and uses her powers to help the natives until Professor 
Xavier comes to her.

M/TU 100/2-FB (pg ??)
Andreas de Ruyter, head of the South African Bureau of State Security, 
attempts to kidnap Prince T'Challa of Wakanda while the young Prince is 
in Kenya. With the help of Ororo Monroe, T'Challa escapes. Around this time 
Monroe discovers her control over the weather allows her to fly.

BP3 26-FB (pg ??)
No info

UX 226-FB (pg 22 ?)
Wandering the Kenyan plains, Ororo Monroe is overwhelmed by a compulsion. 
Calling out to the Great Mother in prayer, Ororo is greeted by a vision of 
a shining woman, who resembles her (her mother perhaps?). Believing this 
to be a message from heaven, Ororo comes to the conclusion that her powers 
must be a symbol of her own divinity. After she uses her powers to aid 
local tribes against famine and drought, they begin worshipping her as a 
goddess, a role which she decides to accept. For the next few years Ororo 
benignly rules and aides the East Africans.

CX 10-FB (pg ??) (extra page not in UX 102)
Ororo is enjoying her weather powers she manifested while walking from 
Cairo to Kenya. When local tribes askes her to combat the drought that 
ravages the land, she does not even consider turning them down and uses 
her elemental control to make it rain.

X 76-7 (pg ??)
Ororo found a substitute mother in the elderly tribal woman, Ainet, who 
helped her learn how to responsibly use her complex powers.

X:HY 5-7
First encounter with the X-Men

PXX 4-FB
No info

---

As I said, I would be very thankful for any help completing and correction 
this list this.

			*	*	*

Re: Storm origin flashbacks
Posted by DCW3 on January 15, 2003 at 14:12:16:
In Reply to: Storm origin flashbacks
posted by OnionMan on January 13, 2003 at 16:51:42:

UX 305 includes a flashback that recaps Ororo's encounter with Xavier from 
UX 117 and also shows that Xavier may have planted a subconscious suggestion 
in Ororo's mind that caused her to join the X-Men years later. (Sorry, I 
don't have the page or panel number.) The issue hasn't made it into the MCP 
because it falls into a gap, but I'm not sure if it actually shows anything 
different from the flashback in UX 117.

			*	*	*

Alias' intertwining with the rest of the MU
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 14, 2003 at 21:52:05:

When Alias first came out, I didn't think it would have much of a connection 
with the rest of the MU, but judging from people's references to the series 
in other posts (regarding Daredevil, Ant-Man, etc.), it sounds like Alias 
has a pretty central place in the recent chronologies of a number of 
characters, either directly or indirectly.

Sad to say, I only have one issue of the series (#9), so...(you know what's 
coming)...

If anyone can shed light on time passage, temporal references, and character 
appearances in each issue of this series so far, the now-ubiquitous calendar 
would be the better for it.

(And just a reminder...the calendar isn't necessarily an end in and of 
itself, but a tool for nailing character chronologies in the MCP.  Nod to 
Russ.)

			*	*	*

Steven Lang
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 15, 2003 at 14:51:06:

Spotted a missing entry in Lang's chronology.  There's an obscure subplot 
scene in UX 291 where two men take a third man out of a mental hospital.  
This was eventually revealed to be the Friends of Humanity retrieving Steven 
Lang with a view to using him in the Phalanx.  So that's a Lang appearance 
which ought to fit in between H@ 7 and X-Factor #106 f/b.

			*	*	*

KIRIGI...KLIGGER...MISTY KNIGHT
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 15, 2003 at 16:38:11:

new entries marked **

KIRIGI
DD 174
DD 175
DD 176
**DD 187 (pgs 4 and 6 Kirigis corpse)
**DD 188 

KLIGGER/SEN. EUGENE KLIGGER STIVAK
CA 230
**H2 232
<<CA 231>>   Kligger does not actually appear in CA 231. The panel with 
Kligger in CA 231 is part of a recap of previous issuesCaps recollections 
At best its a flashback to some point mid-CA 230.

KNIGHT, MISTY
IF 3
**IF 4
DHKF 31

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent 
piece of information engineering! 

			*	*	*

For a  profile on   Kligger
Posted by Dimadick on January 16, 2003 at 07:47:34:

In Reply to: KIRIGI...KLIGGER...MISTY KNIGHT
posted by Arthur Stein on January 15, 2003 at 16:38:11:

> KLIGGER/SEN. EUGENE KLIGGER STIVAK
> CA 230
> **H2 232
> <<CA 231>>   Kligger does not actually appear in CA 231. The panel with 
Kligger in CA 231 is part of a recap of previous issuesCaps recollections 
At best its a flashback to some point mid-CA 230.

Your notes are impressive in their details, as usual.But The "Appendix  
to the Marvel Handbook" has a profile on Kligger with some additional 
appearances.See if you want to compare your notes:

http://marvunapp.com/Appendix/kligger.htm

			*	*	*

Re: For a  profile on   Kligger
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 16, 2003 at 08:18:55:
In Reply to: For a  profile on   Kligger
posted by Dimadick on January 16, 2003 at 07:47:34:

thank you... quite impressive!

			*	*	*

Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
Posted by Jeph! on January 16, 2003 at 16:42:33:

Now, I realize that I'm not as up on the Spider-Man universe as the X-men 
universe, but ... can someone explain a few things to me?

First off -- I see an entry for "Parker, May II".  I'm assuming that this 
is BABY May, since "Parker, May III" appears to be the Aunt May Impostor 
(with a lone appearance in ASM #400).

Now, May Parker II is said to appear in S-M #75 and ASM #422-BTS.  I don't 
have the latter issue, but I do have Spider-Man #75, and I can't find the 
baby's appearance -- is it possible that this is a mistake, and the MCP 
should point to the previous week's ASM #418, where baby May is (still?)
born, and taken to Europe by Alison Mongraine?

Also, this brings me to another question -- apparently it's NOT the MCP 
policy to give unborn characters their own BTS listings for the time they're 
inside their mothers ... but, SHOULD we?

I mean, take X #121 as an example.  The "camera", positioned INSIDE the 
womb, shows us the conception and growth of the embryonic/fetal Charles 
Xavier.  It shows him DOING something -- attacking his twin sister in the 
womb.  THAT appearance needs to count -- it's important.

But should EVERY pre-birth appearance count as a BTS appearance?  I mean, 
the character is THERE -- inside the mother, and the mother is right there 
on panel.  In many cases, the fetal character's presence actually makes in 
impact on the STORY -- and isn't that the definition of a BTS appearance?  
An off-panel character that nonetheless affects the story?

If we decided to do things this way, then we should chronicle the character 
from the moment the mother announces that she's pregnant until their birth.  
For example, baby May's "first BTS appearance" would be Spectacular #220 
(I think), and would continue up until the birth in ASM #418.  Spider-Man's 
"first BTS appearance" would be "Untold Tales of Spider-Man" #minus-1, 
where May Parker discovers she's pregnant -- Cable's would be "X-Men and 
Alpha Flight" #1.  And so on!

I actually DO think that we should chart characters this way -- if we've 
been know to chart characters' spirits (and corpses) after DEATH, why 
aren't we tracking them as fetuses too?

I don't think this change would affect too many characters' either, so 
it's not THAT big a workload to take on.  What does everyone think?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
Posted by Cook on January 16, 2003 at 17:53:12:
In Reply to: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
posted by Jeph! on January 16, 2003 at 16:42:33:

I think it's a valid proposition.  Without the Xavier example, the need to 
note these appearances might be questionable, but that is definitely an 
important appearance that should be noted.  The same goes for Cable in 
X-Men/Alpha Flight.  The fact that Maddie was pregnant became a plot point 
immediately, and affected that story from the moment that Xavier detected 
the baby.

			*	*	*

Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
Posted by Russ Chappell on January 16, 2003 at 18:47:01:
In Reply to: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
posted by Jeph! on January 16, 2003 at 16:42:33:

> If we decided to do things this way, then we should chronicle the 
character from the moment the mother announces that she's pregnant until 
their birth.  For example, baby May's "first BTS appearance" would be 
Spectacular #220 (I think), and would continue up until the birth in 
ASM #418.  Spider-Man's "first BTS appearance" would be "Untold Tales of 
Spider-Man" #minus-1, where May Parker discovers she's pregnant 

I'm gonna assume you meant "Mary Parker" here...

			*	*	*

Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
Posted by Jeph! on January 16, 2003 at 21:07:52:
In Reply to: Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
posted by Russ Chappell on January 16, 2003 at 18:47:01:

> > Spider-Man's "first BTS appearance" would be "Untold Tales of Spider-Man" 
#minus-1, where May Parker discovers she's pregnant 

> I'm gonna assume you meant "Mary Parker" here...

Yes.  Yes, I did.

So, how 'bout it?  :-)

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Marking milestones
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 16, 2003 at 21:04:15:
In Reply to: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
posted by Jeph! on January 16, 2003 at 16:42:33:

In our last exciting episode, Jeph! spake:

> apparently it's NOT the MCP policy to give unborn characters their own 
BTS listings for the time they're inside their mothers ... but, SHOULD we?

> should EVERY pre-birth appearance count as a BTS appearance?  I mean, 
the character is THERE -- inside the mother, and the mother is right there 
on panel.  In many cases, the fetal character's presence actually makes in 
impact on the STORY -- and isn't that the definition of a BTS appearance?  
An off-panel character that nonetheless affects the story?

> If we decided to do things this way, then we should chronicle the 
character from the moment the mother announces that she's pregnant until 
their birth.  For example, baby May's "first BTS appearance" would be 
Spectacular #220 (I think), and would continue up until the birth in ASM 
#418.  Spider-Man's "first BTS appearance" would be "Untold Tales of 
Spider-Man" #minus-1, where Ma[r]y Parker discovers she's pregnant -- 
Cable's would be "X-Men and Alpha Flight" #1.  And so on!

> I actually DO think that we should chart characters this way -- if we've 
been know to chart characters' spirits (and corpses) after DEATH, why 
aren't we tracking them as fetuses too?

I confess that I assumed fetuses were already part of the Project, but 
never thought to look it up.  I wholeheartedly second Jeph!'s suggestion 
with an additional one.  Things like this, I think, should be annotated.  
I'm not saying Russ should go all Jess Nevins on the Project (well, 
that's a discussion for another time), just that each listing should 
note 1) birth, 2) wedding(s) & divorce(s), 3) death(s) and 4) 
resurrection(s).  If we're cataloguing fetuses, the -BTS might be a 
dead giveaway on certain characters, but on others the distinction with 
post-birth -BTSs would blur.

Besides, I'd love to see all the places Wonder Man and came back died 
marked off. :->

- StAkAr Karnak, adding straw to the camel...

			*	*	*

Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 17, 2003 at 06:20:36:
In Reply to: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
posted by Jeph! on January 16, 2003 at 16:42:33:

I would say no, except in those rare cases where an unborn character is 
actually doing something or influencing the action (the usual example 
being telepaths).  I think it's artificial to describe pregnant bulges 
as "appearances".

For those characters whose pregnancies were genuinely documented over 
time in stories, it might be appropriate to have a crossreference to 
the mother's entry with a note as to the period during which she was 
pregnant.

			*	*	*

Symbiotes on the ultrasound
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 17, 2003 at 08:28:42:
In Reply to: Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 17, 2003 at 06:20:36:

Paul O'Brien spake:

> I would say no, except in those rare cases where an unborn character is 
actually doing something or influencing the action (the usual example being 
telepaths).

Behind the Scenes appearances don't necessarily influence action in a story.

> I think it's artificial to describe pregnant bulges as "appearances".

How is it artificial?  Either the character is there or they are not.

> For those characters whose pregnancies were genuinely documented over 
time in stories, it might be appropriate to have a crossreference to the 
mother's entry with a note as to the period during which she was pregnant. 

If you wanted to annotate a character's entry:

ASM x (Mary Jane revealed to be pregnant)
ASM x (birth of baby May)

That'd be fine for the mother.  OTOH, if the policy wasn't reciprocated 
with the fetus, it'd be ignoring a genuine appearance of a character, no 
matter how insignificant the appearance was.

If we had a scenerio where a parasite inhabited a character and then later 
came into its own as a character, the parasite's early appearances would 
likely be included in the Project.  This may be the case with symbiotes 
like Venom and Carnage.  While fetuses and parasites are different animals, 
I think their situations are close enough for comparison.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: Symbiotes on the ultrasound
Posted by Jhaeman on January 17, 2003 at 11:32:56:
In Reply to: Symbiotes on the ultrasound
posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 17, 2003 at 08:28:42:

I have no objection to a brief annotation noting when a character is 
revealed to be pregnant, and a second when a fetus is born--I tend to 
favor annotations of all important events (weddings, deaths, new costumes, 
etc.) because I think it helps a lot when trying to place an issue if you 
can scan the list and get a feel based on where these events happened.

However, I'm rather dubious of putting BTS appearances every time a 
pregnant character shows up in a comic.  Except for Charles Xavier's 
one exception, it simply seems rather obsessive and of little value--
and  it will involve philosophical issues that will likely begin a huge 
flaming debate about when a fetus becomes a "person" and thus worthy of 
inclusion in the MCP (though that may now be impossible to avoid at this 
point).  

On a different note, the inevitable discussions of when certain characters 
had intercourse with each other so as to pin down the last possible moment 
conception could occur (as are already popping up) strike me as 
somewhat . . . weird.

Jhaeman
Comics That Time Forgot:  www.geocities.com/jhaeman

			*	*	*

Re: Symbiotes on the ultrasound
Posted by Jeph! on January 17, 2003 at 12:11:44:
In Reply to: Re: Symbiotes on the ultrasound
posted by Jhaeman on January 17, 2003 at 11:32:56:

> I have no objection to a brief annotation noting when a character is 
revealed to be pregnant, and a second when a fetus is born

Are you referring to placing the annotation in the MOTHER's chronology, or 
the fetus'?

> However, I'm rather dubious of putting BTS appearances every time a 
pregnant character shows up in a comic ... it simply seems rather obsessive 
and of little value

I've heard the MCP itself described that way.  Value?  that's subjective.  
Obsessive?  Of course we are!

> --and  it will involve philosophical issues that will likely begin a huge 
flaming debate about when a fetus becomes a "person" and thus worthy of 
inclusion in the MCP

Hopefully not.  And, hey, we have two HORSES on the MCP (Aragorn and 
Valinor) -- are they "worthy" of inclusion?  Does the fact that they ARE 
included give us precendent to include fetuses?

> the inevitable discussions of when certain characters had intercourse 
with each other so as to pin down the last possible moment conception 
could occur (as are already popping up) strike me as somewhat . . . weird.

How so?  It's just good chronologizin'.

In the case of Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch, talking about sex has 
nothing to do with it.  Their parents -- Magneto and Magda -- were 
separated in CX #12/2, and never saw one another again.  Therefore 
Magda MUST have been pregnant in that issue.

And, as for bringing up sex between Mystique and Sabretooth in XU #40/2 ... 
well, they HAD SEX ON-PANEL, and Mystique ended the story by saying "I'm 
pregnant"...

I'm not trying to get prurient, I'm just discussing the book's on-panel 
subject matter, and the writer's INTENT -- to document the conception of 
Graydon Creed -- versus a previous book, and ANOTHER writer's intent to 
infer the same event.

Trying to stay PG here ... but I don't see anything wrong with a fact-
based discussion of conceptual events, and a list of characters' fetal 
appearances, properly annotated as such.

-Jeph!

You want to get prurient?  X #121 showed Charles Xavier's father's semen.

			*	*	*

Re: Symbiotes on the ultrasound
Posted by David Smith on January 20, 2003 at 08:30:27:
In Reply to: Re: Symbiotes on the ultrasound
posted by Jeph! on January 17, 2003 at 12:11:44:

> > --and  it will involve philosophical issues that will likely begin a 
huge flaming debate about when a fetus becomes a "person" and thus worthy 
of inclusion in the MCP

> Hopefully not.  And, hey, we have two HORSES on the MCP (Aragorn and 
Valinor) -- are they "worthy" of inclusion?  Does the fact that they ARE 
included give us precendent to include fetuses?

Not to mention a Sabertooth Tiger (Zabu) and a Bird (Redwing) :-)

			*	*	*

Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
Posted by Jeph! on January 17, 2003 at 09:23:40:
In Reply to: Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 17, 2003 at 06:20:36:

> I would say no, except in those rare cases where an unborn character is 
actually doing something or influencing the action (the usual example 
being telepaths).  I think it's artificial to describe pregnant bulges as 
"appearances".

As for "influencing the action" -- much of Peter's side of the Clone arc 
revolved around his wife's pregnancy.  They took Lamaze classes, they 
talked endlessly about the baby -- heck, Peter hung up the webs for the 
longest time he EVER has, just because of that "pregnant bulge".

And as for an unborn character "actually doing something" -- how about 
kicking?  Baby May did that quite a bit, too.

I guess we'd better weed out all the OTHER documented MCP appearances of 
characters who neither did anything, nor influenced the action in a 
particular issue, too...

I don't think it seems "artificial" in the slightest to document a 
character's pre-birth appearances ... completeness is what the MCP is 
all about!  We document flashbacks of them as infants, we document their 
corpses and their disembodied souls.  Let's SOMEHOW indicate their time 
as fetuses, too.

> For those characters whose pregnancies were genuinely documented over 
time in stories, it might be appropriate to have a crossreference to the 
mother's entry with a note as to the period during which she was pregnant.

Well, first off -- like I say, how many characters is this actually going 
to affect?  Ten, maybe?  I can really only think of the above-mentioned 
four: Spider-Man, baby May Parker (II), Cable, and Professor X.  Oh, and 
Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch, whose mother MUST have been pregnant 
already when she ran from Magneto in CX #12/2.

In most other cases, I'm betting that a flashback of a character's pregnant 
mother comes closely alongside a flashback of them as a young child in the 
same issue.

I know it's not typical MCP policy to annotate the listings, but I've seen 
it done -- Aunt May's early chronology is heavily annotated.  If it'd make 
things feel less "artificial", I'd be up for an annotation during the pre-
birth period.

For characters whose mothers we follow through the pregnancy, two annotations 
should do it -- one for the announcement of conception, one for the birth.

CABLE / NATHAN CHRISTOPHER CHARLES SUMMERS / NATHAN DAYSPRING ASKANI'SON
X&AF 1-BTS (mother discovers she is pregnant)
X&AF 2-BTS
UX 197-BTS
UX@ 9-BTS
UX 200-BTS
UX 201 (born)
...

And for characters whose mothers we DON'T follow, but need to drop quick 
flashbacks of a pregnant mother in, something like these:

SPIDER-MAN
UTOS -1-BTS (mother announces she is pregnant)
PPTSS 225/2-FB
...

QUICKSILVER
CX 12/2-BTS (pregnant mother)
A 186-FB (born)
...

(For Prof. X's entry, no such annotations are necessary -- the camera sees 
INSIDE the womb.  X #121 is a full on-panel appearance -- Charles Xavier's 
first.)

If you wanted to include a link to the mother's entry in tha annotation, 
or simply to list the mother's name, that would probably be good too -- 
although if a fan picks up the issue in question, they can probably figure 
it out.

I still think we should do it.  Otherwise, how can we consider ourselves 
"complete"?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
Posted by Administrator on January 17, 2003 at 10:01:43:
In Reply to: Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
posted by Jeph! on January 17, 2003 at 09:23:40:

When I originally anylyzed the -1 Untold Tales of Spider-Man, I did list a 
behind-the-scenes appearance for Spider-Man, but I did it as a joke, more 
than anything else. I was a little nervous about getting into philosophical 
issues. I don't believe that listing ever made it to the public.

If we were to have a case of a fetus attacking its twin, though, it would 
be hard to deny a listing, which tends to open the door. We should entertain 
anyone's thoughts on the matter.

> Well, first off -- like I say, how many characters is this actually going 
to affect?  Ten, maybe?  I can really only think of the above-mentioned 
four: Spider-Man, baby May Parker (II), Cable, and Professor X.  Oh, and 
Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch, whose mother MUST have been pregnant 
already when she ran from Magneto in CX #12/2.

Franklin Richards.

> CABLE / NATHAN CHRISTOPHER CHARLES SUMMERS / NATHAN DAYSPRING ASKANI'SON
> X&AF 1-BTS (mother discovers she is pregnant)

I'd be more inclined to annotate the point where the *readers* discover 
the pregnancy.

			*	*	*

Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
Posted by Jeph! on January 17, 2003 at 10:23:11:
In Reply to: Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
posted by Administrator on January 17, 2003 at 10:01:43:

> I was a little nervous about getting into philosophical issues.

I can understand that -- however, if we properly annotate it, there's no 
need to MAKE it a philosophical issue.  We clearly label where we're 
talking about an unborn child, and leave the viewer of the site to determine 
if that's an "appearance" they want to bother picking up.

> If we were to have a case of a fetus attacking its twin, though, it would 
be hard to deny a listing, which tends to open the door. We should entertain 
anyone's thoughts on the matter.

Well, you've got my vote to proceed.  ;)

> > I can really only think of the above-mentioned four: Spider-Man, baby 
May Parker (II), Cable, and Professor X.  Oh, and Quicksilver and the 
Scarlet Witch, whose mother MUST have been pregnant already when she ran 
from Magneto in CX #12/2.

> Franklin Richards.

Oh yes.  Well, at least all the work is done for him...

> > CABLE / NATHAN CHRISTOPHER CHARLES SUMMERS / NATHAN DAYSPRING ASKANI'SON
> > X&AF 1-BTS (mother discovers she is pregnant)

> I'd be more inclined to annotate the point where the *readers* discover 
the pregnancy.

Yes -- that's what I meant.  In both cases I listed, Madelyne Pryor and 
Mary Parker dicovered their pregnancies on-panel -- however, I see your 
point.  Women are pregnant for a few weeks at least before it's detectable -- 
and there's no way to know, or determine, how far back their actual 
pregnancy goes.  So of course, our chronologies should begin at the issue 
where the pregnancy is announced to the reader (or, in the case of 
Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch, the final time both parents-to-be are 
together).

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
Posted by Jeph! on January 17, 2003 at 10:36:24:
In Reply to: Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
posted by Jeph! on January 17, 2003 at 10:23:11:

> > > CABLE / NATHAN CHRISTOPHER CHARLES SUMMERS / NATHAN DAYSPRING ASKANI'SON
> > > X&AF 1-BTS (mother discovers she is pregnant)

> > I'd be more inclined to annotate the point where the *readers* discover 
the pregnancy.

> Yes -- that's what I meant.  In both cases I listed, Madelyne Pryor and 
Mary Parker dicovered their pregnancies on-panel

Whoops!  No she didn't.  Although she DID discover her pregnancy thanks to 
her newfound magic powers off-panel sometime DURING X&AF #1, the story point 
I was referring to is the point at which PROF. X discovers her pregnancy, 
and Madelyne makes it public.  Russ and I are on the same track -- the 
chronology shouldn't begin until the readers have proof that the mother is 
pregnant.

Perhaps "(mother *announces* she is pregnant)" would be a better annotation.

Oh, and a note on reader proof, using Graydon Creed as an example -- I was 
going to list his "first fetal appearance" as taking place in "Sabretooth" 
#3-FB, as that would have been the final time Sabretooth and Leni Zauber/
Mystique slept together.  But XU #40/2 throws some doubt on that -- Sabe 
and Mystique sleep together again in that issue, and Mystique claims to be 
pregnant.  Just because we've decided that Graydon needs to be 35 in order 
to run for president, and therefore LIKELY was conceived in Sabe #3 instead 
of XU #40/2, doesn't mean the books agree -- we've got evidence, but no 
PROOF.  Graydon could simply have falsified his age -- we know he's done 
other criminal things in the name of his presidential bid.  This is a case 
where we SHOULDN'T annotate anything...

(And, hey, I just noticed -- "Sabretooth" isn't in the MCP key.  Does it 
fall into the Gap?  I hadn't realized...)

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
Posted by Administration on January 17, 2003 at 17:09:44:
In Reply to: Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
posted by Jeph! on January 17, 2003 at 10:36:24:

> Perhaps "(mother *announces* she is pregnant)" would be a better annotation.

Well, the reason I brought up the distinction is that the readers may know 
*before* the mother.

			*	*	*

Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
Posted by Jeph! on January 17, 2003 at 21:24:26:
In Reply to: Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
posted by Administration on January 17, 2003 at 17:09:44:

> Well, the reason I brought up the distinction is that the readers may know 
*before* the mother.

Ahhh yes.  Of course.

Are you thinking of a particular example?  Or are we talking about 
pregnancies that can be inferred, like my Magda example in CX #12/2?

I can't think of a book offhand where the reader is TOLD flat out that a 
character is pregnant, but the mother is still in the dark...

Nonetheless, yes -- when the READER discovers it, in whatever fashion -- 
that's the point at which we should begin chronology of the fetus.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Subjective pregnancies and collective hallucinations
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 18, 2003 at 07:30:55:
In Reply to: Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
posted by Administrator on January 17, 2003 at 10:01:43:

The Administrator spake:

> When I originally anylyzed the -1 Untold Tales of Spider-Man, I *did* list 
a behind-the-scenes appearance for Spider-Man, but I did it as a joke, more 
than anything else. I was a little nervous about getting into philosophical 
issues. I don't believe that listing ever made it to the public.

Philosophical?  In that case, Spider-Man has never made an appearance.  We 
only have millions of pages showcasing printed copies of inked copies of 
artists' pencils depicting their interpretation of a fictional character in 
red tights.

I just think it's silly that a book called "Untold Tales of Spider-Man # 
Minus One" would not contain an appearance by Spider-Man.  Just because the 
reader and the webslinger are separated by a wall of flesh (effectively a 
person standing in-between you and Spidey) doesn't mean he isn't there.  
What if he were in another room?!  Horrors!

I understand that some may feel that a fetus may or may not be a person.  
The MCP can just say "fetus" and then "birth".  It doesn't have to touch 
whatever thorny issues there might be because no one can deny that Spidey 
(or whoever the case may be) was that fetus at one time.

OTOH, I don't know what we might do about stillborn characters.  I don't 
know the details of Sue Richards pregnancy with her first daughter (I know 
there was a WHAT IF about her), but I'd see value in a listing of her 
"appearances", for completeness' sake, if nothing else.

If someone was adamant about the issue, the same arguement applies to 
after-death appearances.  What do you mean Mar-Vell has been seen since 
his death?  He's in Kree-Valhalla or Kree-Purgatory or Kree-Nirvana - he 
should be reincarnated by now - or actually, he ceased to exist when he 
died and only decaying bones are left.  Any new appearances are only 
collective hallucinations.

There's talk of a precedent for Charles Xavier.  Is that only because 
there was a camera in his mother's womb?  What if a pregnant Mrs. Xavier 
was shown standing next to a pregnant Mrs. Parker?  Would we count one BTS 
and not the other?

> I'd be more inclined to annotate the point where the *readers* discover 
the pregnancy.

Sort of like not listing appearances of Norman Osborn until he was revealed 
as the Green Goblin?

It makes no difference if a character acknowledges an appearance or not.  
Was he/she there or not?  If the Invisible Man skulks about for 3 issues 
before he reveals himself in #4, does that mean the first three BTS 
appearances don't count?

What are we talking about here?  Being as politically correct as possible 
so as not to step on a toe?  Or upholding the integrity of the Project?

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: Subjective pregnancies and collective hallucinations
Posted by Jhaeman on January 18, 2003 at 13:45:36:
In Reply to: Subjective pregnancies and collective hallucinations
posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 18, 2003 at 07:30:55:

> I understand that some may feel that a fetus may or may not be a person.  
The MCP can just say "fetus" and then "birth".  It doesn't have to touch 
whatever thorny issues there might be because no one can deny that Spidey 
(or whoever the case may be) was that fetus at one time.

> What are we talking about here?  Being as politically correct as possible 
so as not to step on a toe?  Or upholding the integrity of the Project?

I might as well walk into the fire here . . . 

I don't think having respect for the widely-varying beliefs of the MCP 
community on such a sensitive topic is being "politically correct", or if 
it is, I don't think being "politically correct" is a bad thing.

Saying that a fetus should be in the same list of an adult (or at least 
born) character is, in effect, saying that the fetus and the character are 
the same thing--that there is no difference between them.  Regardless of 
whether we believe this to be true or false, it goes to the core of the 
abortion debate--are women committing infanticide or simply disposing of 
a mass of unwanted cells within their own body?  Is an acorn the same 
thing as an oak tree?  Is there a good reason only the fetus gets a listing?  
Why not list the sperm of the eventual father and the egg of the eventual 
mother?  After all, we know they will eventually be joined, just as know 
we that this fetus will eventually be born.  If, in fact, we believe the 
fetus is the same as the character, it should make no difference whether 
the fetus is born or not before we list it; but since the fetus is simply 
the growth of egg and sperm joined together, why do we need to wait until 
the egg and sperm are joined in order to list them for the character?  

And now there is talk of listings for fetuses who never were born (such as 
Sue Richards'), what will the listing be:

RICHARDS, SUE FIRST STILLBORN FETUS   
FF 234

And a character who has an abortion?  Does that fetus get listed too?  

DOE, JANE FIRST ABORTED FETUS    
XMEN 981

--------

Some people will think they have easy answers to these questions--others 
will think there are no answers.  But the point is there is a reason to 
walk softly; these are important issues to people, as least in the United 
States as witnessed by the past thirty years of political debate.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that listing fetuses may be a project 
or a debate for another day, just as listing New Universe comics or other 
characters with a tenuous relation to the Marvel Universe is a task for 
another day.  Right now we still have two large gaps, a long list of 
comics that people can contribute to, and new books pouring in daily.  
Yet 70% of the posts are about side issues such as the calendar (something 
I like, by the way, but should probably have its own site or section of 
the site)--and now we're going to hypothesize about when people last had 
sex, the length of alien or magical pregnancies, etc.?  We should focus 
on what we're good at, and when we get caught up and have plenty of time 
to do something else, we can discuss and jointly find a good way to expand 
the MCP even further.

Jhaeman
Comics That Time Forgot www.geocities.com/jhaeman

			*	*	*

Pandora's thalidomide
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 18, 2003 at 14:53:02:
In Reply to: Re: Subjective pregnancies and collective hallucinations
posted by Jhaeman on January 18, 2003 at 13:45:36:

Jhaeman spake:

> Is there a good reason only the fetus gets a listing?  Why not list the 
sperm of the eventual father and the egg of the eventual mother?  After all, 
we know they will eventually be joined, just as know we that this fetus will 
eventually be born.

Conception is the earliest event where a character is an *individually* 
traceable thing.  Tracking a fetus has value because outside events can 
have an impact on the fetus.  Trauma the mother undergoes or medication 
she takes affects the fetus also.  Music the mother listens to can sometimes 
be remembered by the child once born.  Things like these can be plot points.

> And now there is talk of listings for fetuses who never were born (such 
as Sue Richards'), what will the listing be:

> RICHARDS, SUE FIRST STILLBORN FETUS   
FF 234

I haven't read the stories, so I couldn't recite details, but she had a 
name in the WHAT IF stories.  Let's say her name in the WHAT IFs was Mary.  
The MCP's entry would read:

RICHARDS, "MARY"
FF xxx-BTS (existence revealed)
FF xxx-BTS
FF 234 (stillborn)

> And a character who has an abortion?  Does that fetus get listed too?

My opinion would be yes.  Something like:

DOE, (UNNAMED)
COMIC 1-BTS (existence revealed)
COMIC 2-BTS
...
COMIC 9-BTS (abortion)

A story may be about a character reflecting on the decision she made to 
abort and it would be nice to know when it was that she carried the fetus.

> listing fetuses may be a project or a debate for another day, just as 
listing New Universe comics or other characters with a tenuous relation to 
the Marvel Universe is a task for another day.  Right now we still have two 
large gaps, a long list of comics that people can contribute to, and new 
books pouring in daily.  Yet 70% of the posts are about side issues such 
as the calendar (something I like, by the way, but should probably have 
its own site or section of the site)--and now we're going to hypothesize 
about when people last had sex, the length of alien or magical pregnancies, 
etc.?  We should focus on what we're good at, and when we get caught up 
and have plenty of time to do something else, we can discuss and jointly 
find a good way to expand the MCP even further.

While I have little interest in a lot of stuff that comes up on this 
board, I can't deny that the majority of it enhances the process.  Decisions 
made in tangental matters, like this one, affect how books are chronologized.  
If we waited until everything was complete until moving on, then we'd have 
double work when we have to go back and reanalyze books.  It is a different 
matter than other timelines or the New U in that this issue, at least, has 
a direct bearing on what we are doing right now.

- StAkAr Karnak, who notes the irony in how prolific he's been since 
resigning the Board...

			*	*	*

Political Correctness?
Posted by Jeph! on January 18, 2003 at 15:40:54:
In Reply to: Re: Subjective pregnancies and collective hallucinations
posted by Jhaeman on January 18, 2003 at 13:45:36:

> > I understand that some may feel that a fetus may or may not be a person. 
The MCP can just say "fetus" and then "birth".  It doesn't have to touch 
whatever thorny issues there might be because no one can deny that Spidey 
(or whoever the case may be) was that fetus at one time.

> Saying that a fetus should be in the same list of an adult (or at least 
born) character is, in effect, saying that the fetus and the character are 
the same thing--that there is no difference between them.

We're not necessarily saying that.  Let me run an example past you here:

The MCP lists appearances of characters' dead bodies.  Bodies without 
souls -- clumps of cells without life force.  Are we endorsing the opinion 
that these bodies are "equal" to a living person?  No.  We're acknowledging 
that AT ONE TIME that body -- those cells -- BELONGED TO the character.

That's the closest example to the "fetus" scenario I can think of.  We list 
corpses with no difficulty at all -- why not go the other direction, and 
list the clump of cells that belonged to the character PRIOR to their "life"?

As another example, we list appearances of characters who have "switched 
minds" -- for example, every appearance of Cassandra Nova's mind inside 
Prof. X's body counts as an appearance of Prof. X AND Cassandra.  The MCP 
condones the listing of characters' PHYSICAL FORMS, regardless of whether 
or not that form is currently occupied by that character's soul.  Also 
similar to your fetus/person argument, and another example of how we simply 
sidestep the philosophy behind it.  We list the physical body -- the clump 
of cells.

And by the way, as I've pointed out, the MCP also lists two HORSES.  Are we 
somehow trying to say that these horses are "equal" to people?  Of course 
not -- we're just listing horses.

Are you saying that a fetal version of a Marvel character has less right 
to be on the MCP than a horse?

>Is an acorn the same thing as an oak tree?

Is a child the same as an adult?  No.  So why don't we go ahead and separate 
characters' listings into "child version" and "adult version"?

> Why not list the sperm of the eventual father and the egg of the eventual 
mother?

Because it's goofy.  Why don't we list a character's corpse behind the 
scenes every time someone visits their gravesite?  Because it's takes the 
"BTS" concept one step too far -- as does your suggestion, in the opposite 
direction.

Both Magneto's clone Joseph and Nate Grey, X-Man, died while saving the 
earth, and their bodies were dissolved and became a part of the earth's 
magnetosphere and energy.  Why don't we list EVERY SINGLE MARVEL COMIC 
that takes place on earth after their deaths?  Surely there were some 
particles of Joseph or Nate floating by in the background.

Because it's ridiculous.

Noting every appearance where a character's mother is DEFINTELY pregnant 
with them is an easy, cut-and-dried thing.  Your egg-and-sperm suggestion 
is spurious -- intentionally so -- and doesn't really help make your case.

And, if you want to get technical, while women are born with all their 
eggs, men are NOT born with all their sperm -- it would be literally 
impossible to spot the point at which the specific sperm that will become 
a character is generated by the father.  So, nyah.

> And now there is talk of listings for fetuses who never were born (such 
as Sue Richards'), what will the listing be:

> RICHARDS, SUE FIRST STILLBORN FETUS   
FF 234

It's always been MCP policy that characters who do not have NAMES do not 
get listings.  I think we're pretty safe in that regard here.

> And a character who has an abortion?  Does that fetus get listed too?  

Does it have a name?

> there is a reason to walk softly; these are important issues to people, 
as least in the United States as witnessed by the past thirty years of 
political debate.

Absolutely.  But, seeing as all we're doing is TALKING about the POSSIBILITY 
of doing this -- and we've already flagged the need to differentiate between 
born and unborn characters -- I'd say we ARE walking softly.

> I guess what I'm trying to say is that listing fetuses may be a project 
or a debate for another day

If we put it off, we may never come back to it.  The ball's already rolling 
right now -- and it's not like we're all busily working on something else.  
(At least, not in a group on the board.)  Let's discuss it!  We don't 
actually have to IMPLEMENT it the day after we come to a conclusion -- so 
why not talk now?

> Right now we still have two large gaps, a long list of comics that people 
can contribute to, and new books pouring in daily.

I agree that we've got a boatload of stuff to do -- but why should that 
stop us from thinking about new possibilities?  The gaps aren't getting any 
LARGER if we wait -- the only workload that grows are the new books.  And 
they'll still be coming out regardless of when we discuss this.

> and now we're going to hypothesize about when people last had sex

No, we're not.  Has anyone seen any evidence of that?  The ONE time I 
mentioned sex, it was SHOWN ON PANEL -- that's hardly "hypothesizing".  
All other topics I've raised have been DIVINING the point at which a 
character was DEFINITELY *ALREADY* pregnant -- ie, the last time the 
parents ever saw each other.  Not trying to pinpoint the spot at which 
they BECAME pregnant...

What I'm doing is the exact same thing as trying to divine the appearances 
of a body-hopping parasite or possession based on the times its prior 
hosts were last together.  If you put it in sci-fi terms like that, the 
MCP has handled cases like it a million times.  (Malice?  Mary Purcell?)

> the length of alien or magical pregnancies

I haven't seen anyone bring THOSE up.

I think you're missing the point -- we're not going to SPECULATE about 
WHEN a character got pregnant or HOW LONG they've BEEN pregnant before we 
find out about it -- we're going to pick the first point at which it CAN 
BE PROVEN that the character is pregnant, and list forward from there.  
It's a totally different thing.

> We should focus on what we're good at

Are you saying we're bad at this?  It's chronologizing based on facts and 
evidence from the books -- no different than any other form of inferring 
a character's BTS presence in a book.

> and when we get caught up and have plenty of time to do something else, 
we can discuss and jointly find a good way to expand the MCP even further.

If we're so pressed for time, like I say, there's no reason we have to 
IMPLEMENT this now.  But what's wrong with DISCUSSING it now?  Deciding 
what to do -- then, when we DO have a spare moment, doing it?

Personally, I don't think we'll EVER have "spare time".  Might as well 
talk about it while we're all thinking about it.

And, seriously -- if we're worried about somehow angering anyone who might 
stop by the MCP and see us equating a fetus with a grown character, a 
simple paragraph in the FAQ could cover all our bases -- something like 
"the MCP does not take sides on whether a character is a 'person' while 
still inside the womb or not.  However, we feel that our purpose includes 
archiving all definite appearances of the PHYSICAL FORM of a character -- 
from embryonic and fetal life, to appearances of possessed characters or 
other characters who are currently minus their souls, to dead bodies."

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Political Correctness?
Posted by Andy Holcombe on January 18, 2003 at 20:35:52:
In Reply to: Political Correctness?
posted by Jeph! on January 18, 2003 at 15:40:54:

> And, seriously -- if we're worried about somehow angering anyone who 
might stop by the MCP

Since we're organizing the appearances of gods, cosmic entities (some 
predating the creation of the universe), demons, other-dimensional beings, 
alternate timelines, and aliens, those of a mind can already find plenty 
to take offense of.

			*	*	*

Pleasing everybody?
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 18, 2003 at 20:37:23:
In Reply to: Political Correctness?
posted by Jeph! on January 18, 2003 at 15:40:54:

Jeph! spake:

> if we're worried about somehow angering anyone who might stop by the MCP 
and see us equating a fetus with a grown character, a simple paragraph in 
the FAQ could cover all our bases

I agree.

> something like "the MCP does not take sides on whether a character is a 
'person' while still inside the womb or not.

There is precedent for the MCP venturing an opinion on moral/ethical issues, 
in the case of stating in the FAQ "we don't have any problem with adult 
oriented material, and believe that there's room for it on the Web".

In any case, regarding a hypothetical FAQ notice:

> we feel that our purpose includes archiving all definite appearances of 
the PHYSICAL FORM of a character -- from embryonic and fetal life, to 
appearances of possessed characters or other characters who are currently 
minus their souls, to dead bodies."

This definition is insufficient in that it does not address appearances of 
a character in 'ghostly' form, Such as Captain Mar-Vell (who has made 
appearances both in corpse and ghost forms).

Maybe something along the lines of:

"Leaving it up to the reader to interpret stages of existence as they wish, 
the MCP endeavors to serve as a record of all substantiated appearances of 
a creature in each form it takes."

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

One point
Posted by David Smith on January 20, 2003 at 08:23:28:
In Reply to: Political Correctness?
posted by Jeph! on January 18, 2003 at 15:40:54:

> > And now there is talk of listings for fetuses who never were born (such 
as Sue Richards'), what will the listing be:

> > RICHARDS, SUE FIRST STILLBORN FETUS   
FF 234

> It's always been MCP policy that characters who do not have NAMES do not 
get listings.  I think we're pretty safe in that regard here.

Except, wasn't it a recent plot point of the Fantastic Four that Sues recent 
child (Valerie) is the previous "stillborn" child (i forget the detatils, it 
was rather convoluted)

			*	*	*

Valeria
Posted by Jeph! on January 20, 2003 at 12:17:15:
In Reply to: One point 
posted by David Smith on January 20, 2003 at 08:23:28:

> > > And now there is talk of listings for fetuses who never were born (such 
as Sue Richards'), what will the listing be:

> > > RICHARDS, SUE FIRST STILLBORN FETUS   
FF 234

> Except, wasn't it a recent plot point of the Fantastic Four that Sues 
recent child (Valerie) is the previous "stillborn" child (i forget the 
detatils, it was rather convoluted)

Yeah -- I actually remembered this late last night!  FF3 #49 revealed that 
Franklin went back in time somehow and "took" the baby to safety -- when 
the dust cleared in that issue, Sue was once again eight-nine months 
pregnant, apparently with the SAME CHILD.  Sue gave birth again -- and 
the baby lived -- in FF3 #54.  They named her Valeria, as per Franklin's 
suggestion.

Of course, it should be noted that this child is NOT Valeria Von Doom -- 
she's Valeria RICHARDS.  Valeria Von Doom was from the future, and claims 
that Doctor Doom was her father (although the plot that followed, of Reed 
posing as Doctor Doom and marrying Sue, seems to have been implying that 
Valeria only THINKS Doom was her father).

In any case, the distinction should be made -- Valeria von Doom MAY be an 
alternate future version of Valeria Richards, but until we have proof that 
she is, we can't tie her chronology to either baby Val's or the fetus from 
FF #234.

So, yeah -- Sue's "stillborn" fetus from FF #234 SHOULD get a listing!

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Subjective pregnancies and collective hallucinations
Posted by Administrator on January 18, 2003 at 19:01:32:
In Reply to: Subjective pregnancies and collective hallucinations
posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 18, 2003 at 07:30:55:

> > I'd be more inclined to annotate the point where the *readers* discover 
the pregnancy.

> Sort of like not listing appearances of Norman Osborn until he was revealed 
as the Green Goblin?

> It makes no difference if a character acknowledges an appearance or not.  
Was he/she there or not?  If the Invisible Man skulks about for 3 issues 
before he reveals himself in #4, does that mean the first three BTS 
appearances don't count?

I'm not sure if you're understanding what I was saying, or if I've 
misinterpreted you, but it sure sounds like there's a misunderstanding 
here.

You've quoted me above in my reply to Jeph, where he stated that the BTS 
listings should begin at the point where the mother discovers she's pregnant. 
I was saying, "not necessarily."

For instance, in Uncanny X-Men #1031, Kitty Pryde's doctor (and thus, the 
readers, since we're reading it) discovers that Kitty is pregnant. In Uncanny 
X-Men #1032, he passes the news along to Kitty. I was proposing that the BTS 
listing begin with #1031, *not* when the mother discovers the pregnancy.

Re: your example above, if we have some way of determining that the 
Invisible Man was skulking around in the previous three issues, he gets 
a BTS listing. But we don't go back further than we have a way of 
determining to begin the BTS listings.

I don't want to give Kitty's baby a bts listing for Uncanny X-Men #1030, 
on the *assumption* that she was probably pregnant before the doctor 
discovered it, because, unless Marvel is going to show Kitty having sex 
for the first and only time, there's no way to stop how far back we 
carry the assumption. I don't want to make *any* assumptions like that.

If, in Uncanny X-Men #1033, the story reveals that Kitty was pregnant in 
#1030, then we can carry the BTS listing back to that point, but if they 
don't reveal it, then we don't. This is entirely consistent with the 
Invisible Man example above.

All of this, of course, can be rendered moot, if we decide not to go 
down this path.

			*	*	*

Re: Subjective pregnancies and collective hallucinations
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 18, 2003 at 20:15:25:
In Reply to: Re: Subjective pregnancies and collective hallucinations
posted by Administrator on January 18, 2003 at 19:01:32:

The Administrator spake:

> I'm not sure if you're understanding what I was saying, or if I've 
misinterpreted you, but it sure sounds like there's a misunderstanding 
here.

> we don't go back further than we have a way of determining to begin the 
BTS listings.

Ah.  My bad.  We're in agreement here; this has been the policy all along.

> I don't want to give Kitty's baby a bts listing for Uncanny X-Men #1030, 
on the *assumption* that she was probably pregnant before the doctor 
discovered it, because, unless Marvel is going to show Kitty having sex 
for the first and only time, there's no way to stop how far back we carry 
the assumption. I don't want to make *any* assumptions like that.

Given Marvel Time, I agree.

> All of this, of course, can be rendered moot, if we decide not to go 
down this path.

If.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Assumptions, and the "Kitty's baby" scenario
Posted by Jeph! on January 21, 2003 at 12:20:55:
In Reply to: Re: Subjective pregnancies and collective hallucinations
posted by Administrator on January 18, 2003 at 19:01:32:

> I don't want to give Kitty's baby a bts listing for Uncanny X-Men #1030, 
on the *assumption* that she was probably pregnant before the doctor 
discovered it, because, unless Marvel is going to show Kitty having sex 
for the first and only time, there's no way to stop how far back we carry 
the assumption. I don't want to make *any* assumptions like that.

Actually, even if that explicit scenario DID occur, and Marvel showed us 
the ONLY time Kitty's EVER had sex -- meaning, the only time she ould ever 
have become pregnant -- you STILL can't give the baby a BTS listing for 
that issue.

Conception, the egg and sperm meeting and burrowing into the uterine wall, 
can take as long as five days -- that's one of the reasons the morning-after 
pill works.  Unless the landmark issue where Kitty has sex ALSO shows a 
scene of her "six days later", you can't assume that she's definitively 
pregnant YET in that issue.

> All of this, of course, can be rendered moot, if we decide not to go 
down this path.

Most of the replies I've seen so far have been pretty positive...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
Posted by Sean Curtin on January 17, 2003 at 19:39:57:
In Reply to: Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
posted by Jeph! on January 17, 2003 at 09:23:40:

> I don't think it seems "artificial" in the slightest to document a 
character's pre-birth appearances ... completeness is what the MCP is all 
about!  We document flashbacks of them as infants, we document their corpses 
and their disembodied souls.  Let's SOMEHOW indicate their time as fetuses, 
too.

While we're on the subject, I've always thought that the MCP ought to have 
some notation to distinguish appearances of deceased or deactivated 
characters from those of living ones.

-- 
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Death!  Death!  Death!
Posted by Jeph! on January 17, 2003 at 21:37:05:
In Reply to: Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
posted by Sean Curtin on January 17, 2003 at 19:39:57:

> While we're on the subject, I've always thought that the MCP ought to have 
some notation to distinguish appearances of deceased or deactivated characters 
from those of living ones.

Are you thinking of annotations of some sort, or are you thinking of a change 
in color along the lines of the red entry for a character's first appearance?

Personally, I'd go for an annotation -- it may be bulkier, but it will 
certainly be easier to read, and have viewers clicking back to the Key less 
often...

Maybe something like this? -- a made-up entry with a range of various 
possible post-death annotations:

CHARACTER-X / UNLUCKY BASTARD
COMIC 33-BTS (conceived)
COMIC 36-BTS (pregnant mother)
COMIC 37-BTS (mother announces her pregnancy)
COMIC 64 (born)
...
COMIC 500 (dies)
COMIC 501 (dead body)
COMIC 504 (spirit)
COMIC 507-BTS (funeral)
COMIC 508-FB-BTS (gravesite) *
COMIC 550 (returns to life)
...

Etc etc.  What do you think?  Is that the sort of thing you're talking 
about, various annotations to denote all the various types of post-death 
appearances?

* Is it stretching things to call an appearance of a character's grave 
(assuming they're buried there, as in the case of Uncle Ben) to be a BTS 
appearance of that character's dead body?

Hmmmm?  It's REALLY pushing things, but (a) that character is affecting 
the story, as we're likely seeing mourners "talking" to them, and (b) we 
KNOW their corpse is there -- it's six feet off-panel, but it's there.  
That's about the best a corpse can hope for, in terms of a BTS appearance.

Personally, I'm hoping we say "no" on that one -- but I just thought I'd 
bring it up.  ;)  Think about it.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

annotations
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 18, 2003 at 13:21:25:
In Reply to: Death!  Death!  Death!
posted by Jeph! on January 17, 2003 at 21:37:05:

> Personally, I'd go for an annotation -- it may be bulkier, but it will 
certainly be easier to read, and have viewers clicking back to the Key less 
often...

Annotations get my vote!!    a lack of perceptual sensitivity to certain 
colors (aka color blindness) effects 10% of the male population to some 
extent. Annotations are good for everyone!

			*	*	*

Re: Death!  Death!  Death!
Posted by Sean Curtin on January 18, 2003 at 17:37:31:
In Reply to: Death!  Death!  Death!
posted by Jeph! on January 17, 2003 at 21:37:05:

> Are you thinking of annotations of some sort, or are you thinking of a 
change in color along the lines of the red entry for a character's first 
appearance?

The latter.  I'm not sure which would be easier--annotations of the sort 
you suggest, or a short notation indicating that the character isn't alive 
or "active".  An indication that the character only appears as a dead body 
or ghost would remove a lot of potential confusion in the chronologies of 
dead characters.

> * Is it stretching things to call an appearance of a character's grave 
(assuming they're buried there, as in the case of Uncle Ben) to be a BTS 
appearance of that character's dead body?

Well, some characters have funerals listed as BTS appearances; it's not 
much of a stretch to add the character's grave as a BTS appearance.

-- 
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
Posted by DCW3 on January 17, 2003 at 15:37:24:
In Reply to: Baby May and MCP pregnancy practices
posted by Jeph! on January 16, 2003 at 16:42:33:

> First off -- I see an entry for "Parker, May II".  I'm assuming that this 
is BABY May, since "Parker, May III" appears to be the Aunt May Impostor 
(with a lone appearance in ASM #400).

Shouldn't the May impostor be listed as "May Parker II" and baby May as 
"May Parker III"? After all, the impostor first before the baby was born 
but after she was conceived. I suppose it's up for debate and depends on 
one's feelings on the whole "labeling fetuses" issue...but I believe that 
the Parkers didn't decide to name their baby May until some time after 
the impostor's death; shouldn't that count for something?

			*	*	*

Secret Wars II #3
Posted by Stephen Gray on January 17, 2003 at 17:35:59:

Secret Wars II #3 is listed as a canonical appearance of the Beyonder, yet 
it features Circuit Breaker from Transformers, which is officially non-canon. 
Did the Beyonder nip over to [one of] the Transformers universe[s] for a bit, 
or does this mean that some of the early Transformers stories happen in the 
main Marvel Universe?

Maybe there should be a seperate page for the Transformers/G.I. Joe 
universe(s), which do seem to interact with the mainstream MU.

Also, anyone got any idea where Spidey's appearance in Transformers 
US#3/UK#5-6 would have gone if it had been in continuity?

			*	*	*

Re: Secret Wars II #3
Posted by DCW3 on January 18, 2003 at 14:51:12:
In Reply to: Secret Wars II #3
posted by Stephen Gray on January 17, 2003 at 17:35:59:

> Secret Wars II #3 is listed as a canonical appearance of the Beyonder, yet 
it features Circuit Breaker from Transformers, which is officially non-canon. 
Did the Beyonder nip over to [one of] the Transformers universe[s] for a bit, 
or does this mean that some of the early Transformers stories happen in the 
main Marvel Universe?

The generally accepted explanation is that, yes, the Beyonder did take a 
quick jaunt over to the Transformers universe.

> Maybe there should be a seperate page for the Transformers/G.I. Joe 
universe(s), which do seem to interact with the mainstream MU.

Considering that (at least as yet) there is no listing for characters from 
the New Universe, which has interacted with the Marvel Universe far more 
often than the Transformers Universe has, I would imagine that a Transformers 
page is way, WAY down on Russ's priorities list. (Heck, even the DC Universe 
has interacted with the Marvel Universe more often than the Transformers 
Universe has!)

(A note for Russ: This question has come up on several earlier occasions; 
do you think it warrants inclusion in the FAQ?)

			*	*	*

Cirucit Breaker, It fits in after Amazing Spider-Man#265-or rather analogous 
events to that issue
Posted by John McDonagh on January 22, 2003 at 17:10:34:
In Reply to: Re: Secret Wars II #3
posted by DCW3 on January 18, 2003 at 14:51:12:

A footnote in that very issue stated that it took place after Amazing 
Spider-Man#258, hence the black costume.

However, we will just say that it took place after EVENTS analogous to 
Amazing Spider-Man#258, due to it probably not being on Earth-616.

See my Circuit Breaker entry. It covers how Death's Head also met the 
Transformers several times.

In Transformers (UK version)#113, in one such unique to the UK story, the 
writer Simon Furman took the opportunity to introduce to the Transformers 
a ruthless mechanoid bounty hunter named Death's Head, who worked for both 
sides of the Autobot/Decepticon fault in 2006. Time-traveling back to 2006, 
Death's Head killed Bumblebee along the way of a single-minded pursuit of 
Galvatron (a important point of divergence between the US and UK 
Transformers comics, as I will discuss below). Death's Head appeared in 
Transformers#113-114, 117-118, 120, 133, 134, 146-151 before he was blown 
through the dimensions in a battle involving Unicron. After bumping into 
the Doctor (from Doctor Who) in Doctor Who Magazine#135 where he was 
shrunk from Transformers size to human size), he had various adventures 
between his second encounter with the Doctor in Death's Head#8. This 
time, the Doctor left him off at Four Freedom's Plaza on Earth-616. So, 
however obliquely as it occurred, Death's Head nevertheless proved that 
you could travel from Earth-Transformers UK to Earth-616. (Years later, 
we discovered that Death's Head was not a native of Earth-Transformers 
UK, but had been brought there by an unknown third party who had stolen 
him from Death's Head's creator Lupex and his lover Pyra in yet another 
dimension, as revealed in Strip#19-20.) 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/circuitb.htm

			*	*	*

Dr. Who & the FF
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 22, 2003 at 20:30:26:
In Reply to: Cirucit Breaker, It fits in after Amazing Spider-Man#265-or 
rather analogous events to that issue
posted by John McDonagh on January 22, 2003 at 17:10:34:

> This time, the Doctor left him off at Four Freedom's Plaza on Earth-616. 
So, however obliquely as it occurred, Death's Head nevertheless proved that 
you could travel from Earth-Transformers UK to Earth-616.

I've never read any Transformers or Doctor Who comics, but are you saying 
that there was some kind of direct connection between the Doctor and FF 
Plaza?  At least in the sense that he knew of its existence?  I don't know 
what bearing it might have on anything, but it interesting nevertheless.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: Dr. Who & the FF
Posted by Dimadick on January 23, 2003 at 08:30:49:
In Reply to: Dr. Who & the FF
posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 22, 2003 at 20:30:26:

The "Appendix to the Marvel Handbook" has an incomplete profile of Doctor 
Who and his chronological appearances in connection to the Marvel Universe.
It includes the info that you mentioned.See if you find it interesting.:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/doctorwh.htm

			*	*	*

Re: Cirucit Breaker, It fits in after Amazing Spider-Man#265-or rather 
analogous events to that issue
Posted by Stephen Gray on January 30, 2003 at 12:50:33:
In Reply to: Cirucit Breaker, It fits in after Amazing Spider-Man#265-or 
rather analogous events to that issue
posted by John McDonagh on January 22, 2003 at 17:10:34:

> A footnote in that very issue stated that it took place after Amazing 
Spider-Man#258, hence the black costume.

Thanks for the info.

> However, we will just say that it took place after EVENTS analogous to 
Amazing Spider-Man#258, due to it probably not being on Earth-616.

I'd probably beg to differ, the only reason that one of the original 
Transformers Comics (US or UK) is in the mainstream Marvel Universe is 
the official statement. There isn't anything to contradict it being the 
same universe until the Gen2 series - which destroyed huge portions of 
Earth (including San Fransisco).

> See my Circuit Breaker entry. It covers how Death's Head also met the 
Transformers several times.

> In Transformers (UK version)#113, in one such unique to the UK story, 
the writer Simon Furman took the opportunity to introduce to the 
Transformers a ruthless mechanoid bounty hunter named Death's Head, who 
worked for both sides of the Autobot/Decepticon fault in 2006. Time-
traveling back to 2006, Death's Head killed Bumblebee along the way of a 
single-minded pursuit of Galvatron (a important point of divergence 
between the US and UK Transformers comics, as I will discuss below). 
Death's Head appeared in Transformers#113-114, 117-118, 120, 133, 134, 
146-151 before he was blown through the dimensions in a battle involving 
Unicron. After bumping into the Doctor (from Doctor Who) in Doctor Who 
Magazine#135 where he was shrunk from Transformers size to human size), 
he had various adventures between his second encounter with the Doctor 
in Death's Head#8. This time, the Doctor left him off at Four Freedom's 
Plaza on Earth-616. So, however obliquely as it occurred, Death's Head 
nevertheless proved that you could travel from Earth-Transformers UK to 
Earth-616. (Years later, we discovered that Death's Head was not a 
native of Earth-Transformers UK, but had been brought there by an 
unknown third party who had stolen him from Death's Head's creator Lupex 
and his lover Pyra in yet another dimension, as revealed in Strip#19-20.) 

Actually there are about 4 different Transformers Comic Universes, and 
Deaths Head doesn't come from the one I'd label Transformers-UK. These 
are:

Transformers-US - notable for containing the American GI Joe/Transformers 
Crossover

Transformers-UK - all the contemporary stories from US and UK except the 
aforementioned crossover and the UK stories from 'Perchance to Dream' 
(#255) onwards (not that many stories).

Transformers-2006 - Transformers the Movie and all the UK stories 
following on from it. This is the universe that Deaths Head comes from 
(in the same way that Rachel Summers, Cable, or Bishop from the X-men 
aren't necessarily from the future of Earth-616).

Transformers-Earthforce - similar to Transformers-UK, except at some point 
the later US stories are replaced by the UK stories from 'Perchance to 
Dream' (#255). THis divergence happens before the US story 'Surrender' 
(US #71).

			*	*	*

You want to talk TransFormers continuity?  :-)
Posted by Jeph! on January 30, 2003 at 13:33:17:
In Reply to: Re: Cirucit Breaker, It fits in after Amazing Spider-Man#265-or 
rather analogous events to that issue
posted by Stephen Gray on January 30, 2003 at 12:50:33:

Heh.  I love the TF book -- sorting out their chronology is insane but fun.

> > However, we will just say that it took place after EVENTS analogous to 
Amazing Spider-Man#258, due to it probably not being on Earth-616.

> I'd probably beg to differ, the only reason that one of the original 
Transformers Comics (US or UK) is in the mainstream Marvel Universe is the 
official statement.

Back when TransFormers (US) was a four-issue limited series, Marvel had no 
problem with pretending that it took place in the Marvel Universe, and even 
throwing Spider-Man into the mix.  But when it continued into its ongoing 
series, Marvel eventually backed off of that policy.<p>Their "official 
statements" about what's in the MU mean nothing to us here.  We've thrown 
stuff out of continuity that Marvel probably thinks IS in-continuity many 
times before -- the "Icons: Rogue" series being the best example.

Here's my logic on why the TF series isn't in the Marvel Universe.

1) The TF US and TF UK series are intertwined -- much like, say, X-Men and 
Uncanny X-Men.  Story threads carry over from one series to the other, and 
occasionally back.  The two books are clearly set in the same universe.

2)  Death's Head travels FROM the TransFormers UK book TO the Marvel 
Universe (with a few stops along the way, like the Doctor Who Universe).  
"The Incomplete Death's Head" #1 reinforces that Death's Head initially 
came from a SEPARATE universe filled with battling robots -- and was NOT 
native to the MU.

That's pretty much it.  I mean, you can also say that the TFs and GI Joe 
exist in the same universe, but it's never made clear that GI Joe isn't 
a part of the Marvel Universe.

> There isn't anything to contradict it being the same universe until the 
Gen2 series - which destroyed huge portions of Earth (including San 
Fransisco).

That too, yeah.  And, I mean, the Gen 2 series is a continuation of the 
Gen 1 series -- if you throw one out of the MU, you should probably throw 
the other out too.

> Transformers-US - notable for containing the American GI Joe/Transformers 
Crossover

> Transformers-UK - all the contemporary stories from US and UK except the 
aforementioned crossover and the UK stories from 'Perchance to Dream' (#255) 
onwards (not that many stories).

I think the accepted view is that the TF US and TF UK books take place in 
the same universe -- with the minor contradiction that Bumblebee is blown 
up and rebuilt as Goldbug on TWO different occasions.

(My take on it?  "GI Joe vs TF" came first -- Bumblebee is rebuilt as 
Goldbug by GI Joe.  Right after that issue, Ratchet fixes him back to 
Bumblebee -- tutting about the humans' silly mistakes -- and Bumblebee 
is promptly blown up AGAIN in the UK book, and fixed by Wreck-Gar 2006, 
once again assembling him as Goldbug (using memories/schematics from the 
future, and a much greater aptitude than GI Joe is capable of).  This 
time, Bumblebee shrugs and accepts the change.)

In any case -- the two books are clearly MEANT to take place in the same 
universe.  TF UK mentions the events of TF US constantly, and TF US has 
acknowledged the UK book on at least one occasion (issue #64 mentioned 
TF UK #235-236).

You've got some fun views on the TF timelines, very similar to mine.  
I've found THREE separate alternate futures for the TF universe, with 
different divergence points than you mentioned.  This really isn't the 
place to discuss them, but I'd be interested in seeing the logic behind 
your assumptions...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Icons: Rogue
Posted by Jhaeman on January 30, 2003 at 14:45:21:
In Reply to: You want to talk TransFormers continuity?  :-)
posted by Jeph! on January 30, 2003 at 13:33:17:

>>We've thrown stuff out of continuity that Marvel probably thinks IS 
in-continuity many times before -- the "Icons: Rogue" series being the best 
example.

Sorry to change tacks slightly--I was just curious about why Rogue's ltd. 
series isn't continuity (I don't know much about the character's history).

Comics That Time Forgot:  www.geocities.com/jhaeman

			*	*	*

Re: Icons: Rogue
Posted by Jeph! on January 30, 2003 at 16:51:39:
In Reply to: Icons: Rogue 
posted by Jhaeman on January 30, 2003 at 14:45:21:

> Sorry to change tacks slightly--I was just curious about why Rogue's ltd. 
series isn't continuity (I don't know much about the character's history).

Well, the main offender is the fact that, by all appearances, it takes 
place just after UX #171, when Rogue was still new to the team -- but Jean 
Grey is, for some reason, ALIVE in this series.  The X-Men don't discover 
that she's alive until UX #243, many many years later.

The fact that Rogue displays none of the powers she absorbed from Ms. 
Marvel, even in life-and-death situations, is another nail in the series' 
coffin.  It just doesn't fit with what we know of the time period it's 
allegedly set in -- and it doesn't fit into any OTHER time period, either.

We're left to assume that this was a series designed to attract only fans 
of the movie...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: You want to talk TransFormers continuity?  :-)
Posted by Nick on April 12, 2003 at 14:18:53:
In Reply to: You want to talk TransFormers continuity?  :-)
posted by Jeph! on January 30, 2003 at 13:33:17:

> I think the accepted view is that the TF US and TF UK books take place in 
the same universe -- with the minor contradiction that Bumblebee is blown 
up and rebuilt as Goldbug on TWO different occasions.

> In any case -- the two books are clearly MEANT to take place in the same 
universe.  TF UK mentions the events of TF US constantly, and TF US has 
acknowledged the UK book on at least one occasion (issue #64 mentioned TF 
UK #235-236).

I agree that Transformers shouldn't be split into US-only and US/UK 
continuities around the Goldbug inconsistancy.  Unfortunately, not only 
does G.I. Joe and the Transformers contradict the UK version, but even 
allowing that Bumblebee could have been blown up and rebuilt twice, the 
cross-over story is also conflicts with later US issues.

After Bumblebee's destuction at the hands of the Joes, Blaster informs the 
Autobots of Optimus Prime's death (US TF #24).  The following issue, we see 
the Joes examining the Bumblebee's remains, just before we cut to the 
Autobots at Prime's funeral.  However, in US TF #41, Goldbug tells Spike 
"I was there.  I saw his lifeless body launched into your sun for burial." 

Obviously it would be simpler to ignore the cross-over story all together, 
but I think it's still possible to reconcile it.  

The cross-over origin of Goldbug could be the original sequence of events 
before the timeline was corrupted by the presence of Galvatron and others 
from the future.  As a result, Bumblebee was blown-up by Death's Head 
before encountering the Joes, and then Galvatron was defeated before US 
TF #26, allowing Goldbug to be present at Prime's funeral.  The cross-over 
may still have occurred, but without Bumblebee/Goldbug.

That's my theory, anyway.

Nick

			*	*	*

Hulk Missing FBs
Posted by captamr on January 18, 2003 at 12:22:29:

As I continue to peruse the Hulk of the early 80s, Ive come across some 
missing FBs:
First in the Hulks battle with Avalanche and Landslide were missing 
Landslides order from Mole Man and Kala to find out what all the raucous 
is about from above (H2 263 pg. 9-10). The FB appearance shows up in Mole 
Man and Kalas listings and should be included in:

LANDSLIDE
M/TE 25
H2 263-FB**
H2 263

Secondly, the Hulk battles the U-Foes on Gamma Base throughout H2 275  
H2 277 finally revealing their return from defeat in H2 254 in H2 277 
pg. 12, pn. 1-2. This effects the listing of all the U-Foes  IRONCLAD, 
VAPOR, VECTOR, X-RAY:

H2 254
H2 277-FB**
H2 275
H2 276
H2 277

Finally, H2 254 seems to be the U-foes first appearance  should that be 
in red?

Until later,
Charllie

			*	*	*

Re: Hulk Missing FBs
Posted by Administrator on January 18, 2003 at 19:06:25:
In Reply to: Hulk Missing FBs
posted by captamr on January 18, 2003 at 12:22:29:

> Finally, H2 254 seems to be the U-foes first appearance  should that be 
in red?

Thanks, Charlie.

A character's first published appearance is only listed in red if the first 
chronological appearance is *not* the same as the first published appearance.

			*	*	*

KOLOMAQ...KRANG...KRISTA
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 19, 2003 at 10:25:49:

new entries marked **

KOLOMAQ
**AF 6
XM 39

Theres also a panel in AF 38 with a reference that the great gods were 
still in exile and a pictorial representation of Kolomaq in exile. This 
might be interpreted as a real look at Kolomaq. If so then AF 38 should 
be added.  If the representation is not taken as real, then possibly the 
referece note itself is enough to warrant  a BTS entry.   

KRANG [ATLANTEAN]
SUB-M 33
**CA 180
CA 181

KRISTA
T 227
(T 228)    Im not seeing Krista in T 228
**T 229
T 230

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent 
piece of information engineering! 

			*	*	*

Do we have the Hulk chronologized correctly?
Posted by Kevin  on January 21, 2003 at 13:03:06:

Hey, I just got done a little while back reading all issues of the last 
Defenders series, including all issues 1 thru 12, and the Order 1-6. I 
managed to grab the entire run at an online auction.  So now that I'm done 
reading them, I'm wondering, do we have the Hulk's chronology right, not 
just for the sake of Paul's calender, but in the MCP as well?  I believe 
all of you have read these issues long before I had, so I'm bringing it 
up.

In the MCP, the Hulk's current chronology is listed as such:

H3 21
MAXSEC 3
H3 22
H3 23
DEF2 1
H3 24
H3 25
H3 26
H3 27-BTS
H3 28
H '01
A3 39
DEF2 2
DEF2 3
DEF2 4
BP3 35
DEF2 5
DEF2 6
DEF2 7
DEF2 8
H3 29
H3 30
H3 30-FB
H3 30
H3 31
H3 32

As you can see, when the current chronology stopped, the Defenders series 
was still going.  So now that a little time has passed, do we have the 
correct order?  I did the chronology for Paul's calender for just the Hulk 
issues, but at that time, I hadn't read the Defenders issues.  

Hulk v.3 Issue 24 and the last Defenders series, Issue 1 came out in the 
same month: January 2001.  So I agree: Defenders Issue 1 probably came 
before Issue 24.

All issues of the Defenders and The Order must end before Hulk #34, because 
that's when the new Bruce Jones storyline started up.  Defenders Issue 12 
should happen after Hulk #32, because Bruce Banner gets healed of his 
disease in that issue, and in Defenders 12 we see a Bruce Banner who's able 
to stand up on his own in the shower.  

Do we know where Doc Samson's lab is located?  Is it in Virginia, near 
D.C., (since he's ex-military) and after Dr. Lipscombe's lab and house get 
wasted in Hulk #14, her and Banner end up living with Doc Samson, (this is 
shown in the Defenders series as well).  Since Banner is shown in a 
Virginia town at the start of Defenders Issue 1, I figured maybe Samson's 
house is in Virginia...I'm just trying to find the story flow that works 
the best here folks.

I think the order should be something like this:

Hulk #23= Gray Hulk finishes up his spree in Chicago.

Defenders 1= Banner is in a town in Virginia, transforms into Stupid Hulk, 
helps out the Defenders.

Defenders 2-4= Didn't this storyline immediately follow the first issue? 
Dr. Strange was insistent that they not seperate till they figure out what 
the curse was, but they seperated anyway. We see Gray Hulk in Issue 2 at a 
Bar, with Samson urging him to return to the lab. Gray Hulk gets 
transported and turned in the Green Hulk by the curse.

Hulk 24 and 25= Banner's back at Samson's.  Gen. Ross gets Banner to come 
out to his Army base, (in Arizona or New Mexico?) gets Banner upset over 
Betty. Banner becomes stupid Hulk, goes and beats up the Abomination.

Hulk 26= a stand alone "Stupid Hulk" story.

Avengers #38-40:  Didn't these Avengers issues get published in early 2001? 
Well, so did Hulk 24-26, so why not place this here?

Defenders 5-8, don't these issues all run together complete? In one scene, 
we see a weak Banner unable to disarm a bomb.  

Hulk 27-28=Happens all in Bruce Banner's mind, in a dream

Defenders 9-11= Defenders reclaim Atlantis

Hulk 29= Another solo story. Banner's body is pretty well wasted.

Hulk 30-32= Banner gets better at the end of this story.

Defenders 12=A Nuff Said issue. We see what appears to be a healthy Banner 
in one panel.

Hulk 33= A solo "Stupid Hulk" story set in Wakanda at start of story.

Defenders 12, Second story:  Start of "The Order"

The Order 1-6:  We see lots of guest stars, but this is right after the 
Kang War right?

I don't know where the Hulk's appearanace in Black Panther #35 goes, I 
don't have that issue. Is this order correct? If not, can someone show 
me the light? :) 

			*	*	*

Re: Do we have the Hulk chronologized correctly?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 22, 2003 at 21:41:13:
In Reply to: Do we have the Hulk chronologized correctly?
posted by Kevin  on January 21, 2003 at 13:03:06:

Kevin, here's the way this portion of the Hulk's chronology is shaping up 
for me, taking a number of character chronologies and temporal references 
into account:

H3 23-29
A3 38-40
Def2 1-4
BP3 35
Def2 5-7
H3 30-32
Def2 8-11
H3 33
Def2 12
Order 1-6

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Do we have the Hulk chronologized correctly?
Posted by Kevin  on January 27, 2003 at 07:53:52:
In Reply to: Re: Do we have the Hulk chronologized correctly?
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 22, 2003 at 21:41:13:

Sorry I've taken so long to respond...had another snow storm around here, 
and I just couldn't get to a computer...

> Kevin, here's the way this portion of the Hulk's chronology is shaping 
up for me, taking a number of character chronologies and temporal references 
into account:

Well...that's slightly different than the MCP's official listing...it 
could concievably work, but Banner's body is pretty well wasted in Hulk 
29, (that's the story with the Hatemonger aka Animus, I believe).  I mean, 
he's capable of walking, but not very far, and you have Defenders 1 coming 
after that, and in that story, he's walking around in a major metropolitan 
area, (some city in Virginia I belive).  That's why I kinda tend to believe 
Defenders 1 came around the same time as Hulk 24, (which were both published 
in the same month, Jan. 2001).  Banner is shown in Hulk 24 to be sick, but 
well enough that he can take a trip to Gen. Ross' army base.  

And Avengers 38 to 40 were published in those same early winter months of 
2001 as well, but they're fairly flexible. 

			*	*	*

Re: Do we have the Hulk chronologized correctly?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 29, 2003 at 21:09:40:
In Reply to: Re: Do we have the Hulk chronologized correctly?
posted by Kevin  on January 27, 2003 at 07:53:52:

Kevin, given your added information about Banner's physical condition in 
H3 29, and reviewing Banner's whereabouts in your previous write-ups, I'd 
like to make some adjustments to the order, as follows:

A3 39-40 (w/Samson) (Note: The MCP doesnt list A3 40)
H3 24-26 (w/Samson, then leaves for NH, then in some unidentified town, 
probably in the Northeast)
Def2 1-4 (Banner in DC, then as Grey Hulk in Virginia, where Samson finds 
him and Hulk tells him to shove off)
BP3 35 (still w/the Defenders, in New York)
H2 27-28 (back at Samsons)
Def2 5-7 (w/Samson)
H3 29-32 (at Samsons, in bad shape, then cured of ALS)
Def2 8-11 (post-ALS)
H3 33
Def2 12
Order 1-6

I think this order makes more sense in regard to Banner's deteriorating 
condition and whereabouts.  Its just slightly different from the MCPs 
listing.  I have no idea about the placement of H 01, which could be a 
flashback story for all we know.  BTW, where *does* Samson live?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Do we have the Hulk chronologized correctly?
Posted by Kevin  on January 30, 2003 at 22:38:50:
In Reply to: Re: Do we have the Hulk chronologized correctly?
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 29, 2003 at 21:09:40:

Paul, thanks for reviewing this somewhat.  You know, since I'm the one who 
brought this up, I figure the least I can do is since I own all the books 
in question now, is to review the order you just proposed and see if that's 
the best route as far as Banner's detiorating condition.  When I first 
brought this up, I was going by memory alone, but I'll double check your 
proposal against the actual comics.  I'll have a reply either on Saturday 
or Monday, I'd say.

I have no idea about the placement of Hulk '01 as well.  Banner appears 
in brief segments of the book, but the story is mostly about Thor duking 
it out with Hulk across Dimensions, till they arrive back on Earth.  Pretty 
Pointless, really.  I'm unable to tell what condition Banner's in, but I 
suspect it's healthy because a) his having ALS is never mentioned b). he 
doesn't act sick.  But then he doesn't really have time to act sick. The 
Hulk gets worn out, he becomes Banner, only to get freaked out by all 
this Dimension hopping, and transforms back into Hulk.

As for were Doc Samson's house is, (and the reason that's so important is 
because Banner keeps returning to it after his Hulk/Defender escapades), 
I'm still of the opinion it's in Virginia a. cause he's exmilitary and 
helps them out from time to time and b. Cause all of Paul Jenkins stories 
seemed to start out in Virginia.  Dr. Lipscombe, whom Banner turns to 
first, had a house in Virginia. So it makes since after her house is 
destroyed by the military for them to flee to the next nearest friends 
house: Doc Samson. Plus, that's where Defenders 1 starts out. The problem 
is I don't think it just comes out and says it anywhere.

By the way, I'm finally getting around to collecting Bruce Jones run on 
the Hulk, (started with issue 34, and is still going).  I'm missing a few 
key back issues, but since the last few issues have peaked my interest, 
I'm collecting the title again. Besides, if you seen the promo pages at 
the end of December's Marvel comics, then you see in Hulk 50 that the 
Abomination is coming back! :)  One of my favorite villians.  He appears 
to still be locked up in Gen. Ross's army base.

My point is, after I get a few more key issues, I should be able to do 
a write up for the current issues.  But then again, you shouldn't worry 
about placement for these too awful much, cause the Hulk title isn't 
really crossing into the rest of the Marvel Universe. I know I've said 
that the Cap. America and DD titles aren't really connecting to the rest 
of the MU, but that's not quite true: Cap's been in Avengers, and DD's 
been in Spidey titles on occasion.  But Hulk, he's really been off in 
his own universe this last year!

I'm getting better at this chronology stuff as I go... 

			*	*	*

Re: Do we have the Hulk chronologized correctly?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 31, 2003 at 19:42:37:
In Reply to: Re: Do we have the Hulk chronologized correctly?
posted by Kevin  on January 30, 2003 at 22:38:50:

> Paul, thanks for reviewing this somewhat.  You know, since I'm the one 
who brought this up, I figure the least I can do is since I own all the 
books in question now, is to review the order you just proposed and see if 
that's the best route as far as Banner's detiorating condition.  When I 
first brought this up, I was going by memory alone, but I'll double check 
your proposal against the actual comics.  I'll have a reply either on 
Saturday or Monday, I'd say.

Thanks.  That would be great.

> I have no idea about the placement of Hulk '01 as well.  Banner appears 
in brief segments of the book, but the story is mostly about Thor duking 
it out with Hulk across Dimensions, till they arrive back on Earth.  
Pretty Pointless, really.  I'm unable to tell what condition Banner's in, 
but I suspect it's healthy because a) his having ALS is never mentioned b). 
he doesn't act sick.  But then he doesn't really have time to act sick. 
The Hulk gets worn out, he becomes Banner, only to get freaked out by all 
this Dimension hopping, and transforms back into Hulk.

It's a "timeless" story, not for the quality but because it could be 
dropped just about anywhere.  But it didn't seem to hit me as a 
contemporary story when I read it.

> As for were Doc Samson's house is, (and the reason that's so important 
is because Banner keeps returning to it after his Hulk/Defender escapades), 
I'm still of the opinion it's in Virginia a. cause he's exmilitary and 
helps them out from time to time and b. Cause all of Paul Jenkins stories 
seemed to start out in Virginia.  Dr. Lipscombe, whom Banner turns to 
first, had a house in Virginia. So it makes since after her house is 
destroyed by the military for them to flee to the next nearest friends 
house: Doc Samson. Plus, that's where Defenders 1 starts out. The problem 
is I don't think it just comes out and says it anywhere.

My memory recalls Chicago, but that was Samson's base of operations when 
the Vision tried to recruit him into a Midwest Avengers group way back in 
the '80s!

--Paul

			*	*	*

We seem to have the correct order...
Posted by Kevin  on February 04, 2003 at 10:43:17:
In Reply to: Re: Do we have the Hulk chronologized correctly?
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 29, 2003 at 21:09:40:

> Kevin, given your added information about Banner's physical condition in 
H3 29, and reviewing Banner's whereabouts in your previous write-ups, I'd 
like to make some adjustments to the order, as follows:

> A3 39-40 (w/Samson) (Note: The MCP doesnt list A3 40)
> H3 24-26 (w/Samson, then leaves for NH, then in some unidentified town, 
probably in the Northeast)
> Def2 1-4 (Banner in DC, then as Grey Hulk in Virginia, where Samson finds 
him and Hulk tells him to shove off)
> BP3 35 (still w/the Defenders, in New York)
> H2 27-28 (back at Samsons)
> Def2 5-7 (w/Samson)
> H3 29-32 (at Samsons, in bad shape, then cured of ALS)
> Def2 8-11 (post-ALS)
> H3 33
> Def2 12
> Order 1-6

Okay, I reviewed this over the weekend, and yes, it works. In fact, overall, 
it works rather well.

Let me just bring up some "passage of time" questions for you to consider.  

In A3 38, this is the start of the Avengers "going on the offensive" so to 
speak.  They have just constructed that new monitor which alerts them to 
the activitities of Supervillians around the world.  Wasp makes a comment 
that it took them 6 weeks to construct it.  Do you, like I do, take this 
to mean that 6 weeks have passed since A3 37?  Cause that means that since 
Maximum Security happened in A3 35, and then A3 36 and 37 happen within 
the week right after A3 35, then a little over 6 weeks has passed since 
Maximum Security by the time A3 38 happens.

Now concerning the Hulk, and the timeline above...

Hulk 21 is the Maximum Security issue. Then we have the Grey Hulk two part 
storyline in Chicago in H3 22 and 23. Then we have A3 38-40 happening.  
Then we have H3 24-26.  If 6 weeks have passed before A3 38, then the only 
thing Bruce Banner was doing during that time was having an adventure as 
the Grey Hulk.  So, does it make more sense to put H3 24-26 before A3 38 
to 40?  It works either way just fine, but I figured I'd bring up the 
passage of time around then...

Now the Defenders...I reviewed those issues, and reached some conclusions.  
Yeah, it appears to me that Defenders 2 happens shortly after Def. 1.  
Even though Bruce has had time to get back to Doc Samson's...turn in the 
Grey Hulk, and get whisked out of the bar in Def. 2, I think they're 
consecutive.  Dr. Strange is in his mystic room with Hellcat, and they're 
still pondering what this supposed "curse" is that was placed on them.  
They're talking like Def. issue 1 just happened.

Also, in Def. 2, we see Attuma claim Atlantis for his own. In A3 38, if 
I remember correctly, Attuma appears on the "villians locations" map.  It 
lists his location as "Atlantic Ocean" not "Atlantis".  So he hasn't 
conquered Atlantis yet in A3 38, right?  Confirming to me that Def. 1-4 
happen after A3 38-40.  That's what you got on the calender above, so 
good...

Now, about Defenders 5.  Namor is rushing back to Atlantis.  So they try 
to make is out that this happened shortly after Defenders 4.  Banner is 
back with Doc Samson.  Since Attuma has control of Atlantis, this means 
that A3 41-43, where Attuma attacks the surface world, has to happen 
inbetween Def. 2 and Def.5 right?  So maybe Namor was helping out with 
the uprisings in those Avenger issues, then he resumed his personal 
vendetta against Attuma in Def. 5.  And maybe the reason Namor kicked 
Attuma and his men's butts so bad is cause they were still reeling from 
losing to the Avengers?  Course, Namor gets whisked away to aid the 
Defenders at the end of Def. 5.  I can't remember...does it mention 
anywhere in those Avenger issues where Namor was?

Finally, H3 33, happens, according to the narrator "when Hulk was 
returning from some Defenders mission".  The issue starts out in Wakanda.  
You have H3 33 happening right after Defenders 11, where they retake 
Atlantis.  Of course Hulk is still busy fighting at the bottom of the 
ocean at the issues end, but that's as good a place as any for H3 33 to 
occur.  In other words, this appears to be pretty much correct.

Then Def. 12 and the Order happen, then Hulk 34 happens, (the start of 
the newest version of "Banner on the run").  Let me know if I've missed 
anything.

			*	*	*

Re: We seem to have the correct order...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on February 04, 2003 at 20:00:40:
In Reply to: We seem to have the correct order...
posted by Kevin  on February 04, 2003 at 10:43:17:

> In A3 38, this is the start of the Avengers "going on the offensive" 
so to speak.  They have just constructed that new monitor which alerts 
them to the activitities of Supervillians around the world.  Wasp makes 
a comment that it took them 6 weeks to construct it.  Do you, like I do, 
take this to mean that 6 weeks have passed since A3 37?  Cause that means 
that since Maximum Security happened in A3 35, and then A3 36 and 37 happen 
within the week right after A3 35, then a little over 6 weeks has passed 
since Maximum Security by the time A3 38 happens.

I interpret Wasp's comment as meaning that *at least* six weeks have 
passed since A3 37; they didn't necessarily start work on the monitor 
immediately after A3 37.  Some temporal references (Christmas eve in X 
109) and time passage in various X-Men titles appear to end up placing 
more time between A3 37 and A3 38, the latter of which must occur after 
the "Eve of Destruction" storyline to make Quicksilver's chronology work.

> Hulk 21 is the Maximum Security issue. Then we have the Grey Hulk two 
part storyline in Chicago in H3 22 and 23. Then we have A3 38-40 happening.  
Then we have H3 24-26.  If 6 weeks have passed before A3 38, then the only 
thing Bruce Banner was doing during that time was having an adventure as 
the Grey Hulk.  So, does it make more sense to put H3 24-26 before A3 38 
to 40?  It works either way just fine, but I figured I'd bring up the 
passage of time around then...

Not knowing where Samson's place was, I interpreted Hulk's travels in 
the Northeast U.S. as contiguous.  He leaves Samson for New Hampshire 
in H3 24-25, and, moving south, is wandering around (what I would guess 
is) the Northeast in H3 26, ends up in Washington in Def2 1, then in 
Virginia in Def2 2, where Samson finally finds him after searching for 
him because he hadn't returned from New Hampshire.  If Samson is in the 
DC area, then this scenario can be discarded.

> Now the Defenders...I reviewed those issues, and reached some conclusions.  
Yeah, it appears to me that Defenders 2 happens shortly after Def. 1.  Even 
though Bruce has had time to get back to Doc Samson's...turn in the Grey 
Hulk, and get whisked out of the bar in Def. 2, I think they're consecutive.  
Dr. Strange is in his mystic room with Hellcat, and they're still pondering 
what this supposed "curse" is that was placed on them.  They're talking 
like Def. issue 1 just happened.

Yes, and the curse doesn't work until Def2 2.  It's hard to believe a lot 
of time would pass without a world-threatening situation in the MU!

> Now, about Defenders 5.  Namor is rushing back to Atlantis.  So they 
try to make is out that this happened shortly after Defenders 4.  Banner 
is back with Doc Samson.  Since Attuma has control of Atlantis, this means 
that A3 41-43, where Attuma attacks the surface world, has to happen 
inbetween Def. 2 and Def.5 right?  So maybe Namor was helping out with 
the uprisings in those Avenger issues, then he resumed his personal 
vendetta against Attuma in Def. 5.  And maybe the reason Namor kicked 
Attuma and his men's butts so bad is cause they were still reeling from 
losing to the Avengers?  Course, Namor gets whisked away to aid the 
Defenders at the end of Def. 5.  I can't remember...does it mention 
anywhere in those Avenger issues where Namor was?

Posts a while back covered the whole Attuma-conquers-Atlantis issue.  I 
think my head would start hurting if I dredged that up again right now. ;)

> Finally, H3 33, happens, according to the narrator "when Hulk was 
returning from some Defenders mission".  The issue starts out in Wakanda.  
You have H3 33 happening right after Defenders 11, where they retake 
Atlantis.  Of course Hulk is still busy fighting at the bottom of the 
ocean at the issues end, but that's as good a place as any for H3 33 to 
occur.  In other words, this appears to be pretty much correct.

Cool.  I'll incorporate this chronology into the calendar.

> Then Def. 12 and the Order happen, then Hulk 34 happens, (the start of 
the newest version of "Banner on the run").  Let me know if I've missed 
anything.

Not that I can think of.  Thanks very much, Kevin!

Paul

			*	*	*

One quick correction for you to note...
Posted by Kevin  on February 05, 2003 at 08:54:31:
In Reply to: Re: We seem to have the correct order...
posted by Paul Bourcier on February 04, 2003 at 20:00:40:

> > Now concerning the Hulk, and the timeline above...

> > Hulk 21 is the Maximum Security issue. Then we have the Grey Hulk two 
part storyline in Chicago in H3 22 and 23. Then we have A3 38-40 happening.  
Then we have H3 24-26.  If 6 weeks have passed before A3 38, then the only 
thing Bruce Banner was doing during that time was having an adventure as 
the Grey Hulk.  So, does it make more sense to put H3 24-26 before A3 38 to 
40?  It works either way just fine, but I figured I'd bring up the passage 
of time around then...

> Not knowing where Samson's place was, I interpreted Hulk's travels in 
the Northeast U.S. as contiguous.  He leaves Samson for New Hampshire in 
H3 24-25, and, moving south, is wandering around (what I would guess is) 
the Northeast in H3 26, ends up in Washington in Def2 1, then in Virginia 
in Def2 2, where Samson finally finds him after searching for him because 
he hadn't returned from New Hampshire.  If Samson is in the DC area, then 
this scenario can be discarded.

I thought I had made this clearer, at and earlier point, but:

A correction:  Yeah, the Hulk fights the Abomination in New Hampshire, 
(cause that's where Emil was in hiding: in a small New Hampshire town), 
but after Hulk beats him to a pulp, we see the epilogue, where the 
Abomination is locked up in Gen. Ross's Area 51 army base in New Mexico.  
We know it's that place cause they're using the same device Gen. Ryker 
used to restrain the Hulk from H3 19 to restrain teh Abomination.  Banner 
taunts Emil, and leaves the base. We see him wonder off into the desert, 
and as he walks, he transforms into the Hulk.

Then, we next see the Stupid Hulk in "some small town" in H3 26.  So that 
town could be in the midwest, (though not the Southwest aka desert country: 
it has a forest surrounding the town).  I got to looking, and I believe 
the name of that small town was Wassau, (on the first page, there is a 
road sign saying something like "Wassau, 10 miles"  There was a couple 
other towns listed, with farther distances.  It then cuts to Hulk wandering 
into town.  

I did an internet search, and found a town named Wassau, in Wisconsin.  
So, uh...maybe that's the town? :)

So Hulk starts out at Doc Samson's in H3 24, goes to Gen. Ross's army 
base, sees Betty's corpse, turns into Hulk, goes to New Hampshire to 
confront Emil, then is at Area 51 army base seeing Emil locked up, then 
in Wisconsin, (or other small town in America).  Then he's in Virginia 
in Def. 1, and the he's the Gray Hulk in Virginia roadsidebar in Def. 2.

I suspect Banner went back to Doc Samson's inbetween Def.1 and 2, judging 
from what Doc Samson said in Def. 2:  "We need to run some more tests on 
Banner, Joe.  That's why Banner turned into you"  As in: Banner, being 
sick of tests, (which we further see by the way in H3 29) transforms into 
the Gray Hulk aka Joe Fixit, and leaves Samson's to go hang out at a bar 
a little while away.  

Which, by the way, gives me further evidence that Samson's house is in 
Virginia:  Stupid Hulk jumps across the nation to wherever he wants to 
go.  Gray Hulk either walks or drives in style, (he drove to Chicago in 
H3 21 for instance).  So I'm saying I don't think Gray Hulk was far from 
Doc Samson's house.

This is just my interpretation of events, feel free to interpret it your 
own way.  The timeline you proposed still works.  

			*	*	*

Re: One quick correction for you to note...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on February 05, 2003 at 21:31:05:
In Reply to: One quick correction for you to note...
posted by Kevin  on February 05, 2003 at 08:54:31:

> I did an internet search, and found a town named Wassau, in Wisconsin.  
So, uh...maybe that's the town? :)

Are you sure it's not "Wausau?"  That's the city in central Wisconsin, a 
couple hours from me.  And yes, there are forests in that area -- big paper 
milling area nowadays, not to mention Wausau Insurance.

> This is just my interpretation of events, feel free to interpret it your 
own way.  The timeline you proposed still works.  

Thanks for the clarification.  I missed some of those details when I read 
your extensive notes, which I have on file.  Duly noted!

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: One quick correction for you to note...
Posted by Russ Chappell on February 05, 2003 at 22:01:22:
In Reply to: Re: One quick correction for you to note...
posted by Paul Bourcier on February 05, 2003 at 21:31:05:

> Are you sure it's not "Wausau?"  That's the city in central Wisconsin, a 
couple hours from me.  And yes, there are forests in that area -- big paper 
milling area nowadays, not to mention Wausau Insurance.

Warsaw? I have a cousin in Warsaw.

What's that from...the early 70's?

			*	*	*

Re: One quick correction for you to note...
Posted by Kevin  on February 07, 2003 at 08:54:57:
In Reply to: Re: One quick correction for you to note...
posted by Russ Chappell on February 05, 2003 at 22:01:22:

I checked, and in case you two were still wondering: On the second page 
of H3 26, Hulk is standing in front of a road distance sign that says:

Wassau: 12 miles
Merrill: 44 miles
Eagle River: 105 miles

So, uh...does this sound like Wisconsin?  I visited there once as a youth, 
to a summer camp just south of the Canadian border.  But I don't know this 
area of the nation really well.  At any rate it could just be "Anywhere, 
smalltown USA".

			*	*	*

Re: One quick correction for you to note...
Posted by DCW3 on February 07, 2003 at 13:54:16:
In Reply to: Re: One quick correction for you to note...
posted by Kevin  on February 07, 2003 at 08:54:57:

There is a Merrill and an Eagle River in Wisconsin, in addition to Wausau. 
I think we can assume that "Wassau" is a spelling error.

			*	*	*

'Nam (series) as canon; Ice Phillips appears in Punisher War Zone#26-30
Posted by John McDonagh on January 22, 2003 at 15:15:42:

The 'Nam is actually canon, as Ice Phillips, introduced in the 'Nam, 
appeared in a modern day story in Punisher War Zone#26-30.

Of course, due to the sliding timescale, this means that he and Castle 
actually fought in the fictional Vietnam analog Sin Cong! Yes, as per 
Avengers Spotlight#22, Sin-Cong is being used as a search and replace 
for all references to Vietnam! This was done for the Swordsman's origin. 

			*	*	*

TALIA KRUMA...IAN LANGSTROM...LEADER
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 23, 2003 at 17:46:36:

new entries marked **

KRUMA, TALIA
**BG 3-FB  (pg 11 panel 6)
**BG 1
BG 2
**BG 3
**BG 4
M/TIO 85

LANGSTROM, LIEUTENANT IAN "JACK"
**N 49
N 54

LEADER/SAM STERNS
TTA 74/2
**TTA 75/2 (Leaders dead body shown in opening panel)
H2 115
..  ..  ..  ..  ..
H2 282
**H2 283-FB
H2 284

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist 
I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now 
comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking 
if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. 
Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute 
or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent 
piece of information engineering!

			*	*	*

Re: TALIA KRUMA...IAN LANGSTROM...LEADER
Posted by captamr on January 23, 2003 at 20:13:17:
In Reply to: TALIA KRUMA...IAN LANGSTROM...LEADER
posted by Arthur Stein on January 23, 2003 at 17:46:36:

> H2 282
> **H2 283-FB
> H2 284

Im in total agreement with the H2 283-FB but I would also submit that the 
Leaders listing should also show a BTS here as well. The Avengers and Hulk 
are in a 4-issue story arc here from 281  284 chasing the Leader. H2 283 
has his appearance in the FB but the whole group fights on his space station/
computer, Omnivac, which battles at the Leaders commands. I would suggest:

H2 282
**H2 283-FB
**H2 283-BTS
H2 284

Charlie

			*	*	*

Recent X-Men chronology (revised)
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 25, 2003 at 18:01:45:

Okay, it's taken me a while, but I'm finally responding to Jeph's proposal 
for the X-Men's recent chronology.  I've decided to work with his 
contention that XX 20 occurs after the end of XXX 1 and shows a relapse in 
Storm's condition.  Retracing Storm's, Logan's and Archangel's chronologies, 
and adding a whole bunch of temporal references, I've come up with a 
slightly different take on the chronology, which is subject to some 
adjustment as we're dealing with a couple of storylines still in progress.  
Additionally, I've placed X-issues on a calendar for the sake of getting a 
sense of how "real" MU time is passing.  Feel free to comment on the 
relative chronology as well as the calendar references, other than "it's 
pointless to place all this on a calendar."  I know...;)  A neater copy 
in Word can be e-mailed directly.

EARLY AUGUST

X-Treme X-Men #19
	One day and the next morning, not long after XX 18.  The Beast 
comments that Xavier is walking again, putting this issue just after X 
127.  I would say that Kittys appearance here is between XU 36/1 and MEK 
1.  Storm is in a wheelchair here, still recovering from injuries sustained 
in XX 18, so this story must occur before X 131, and most likely before X 
128.  According to Jeph, Logan is here after DP2 69; Logan stays with Ororo 
in New Orleans after this, and we see them next in XXX 1 pg. 8-13.  The 
reference to Thanksgiving season in the opening narrative must be 
topical  there is no reference to the holiday in the story, so it can be 
interpreted as meaning the X-Mens thanksgiving for surviving Khan.

EARLY AUGUST

X-Treme X-Men: Xpose #1 (pages 1-4)
	One day, a few weeks after XX 18 and a whole week before XXX 
1 pg. 5-22.  Conan, Wetherell, and other reporters get an assignment to 
do a story on the X-Men.

MID-AUGUST

X-Treme X-Men: Xpose #1 (pages 5-7)
	One day and the next day, a whole week after XXX 1 pg. 1-4.  
Reporters visit X-Corp in Paris, presumably because Xavier and Worthington 
are there, although they do not appear the whole day, so we dont know if 
their information is accurate.  Conan and Wetherell get a tip to go to New 
Orleans.  The next day (around 1:30 PM, according to the camera in XXX 
2-FB pg. 2-3), other reporters visit Emma Frost at Xaviers, where we see 
green foliage and warm weather; they are dumped in the lake.

MID-AUGUST

X-Treme X-Men: Xpose #1 (pages 8-13)
	Probably the day after XXX 1 pg. 5-7.  Conan and Wetherell visit 
Ororo and Logan in New Orleans, where the two X-Men have been since XX 19.  
Ororo is still wheelchair-bound, but she manages to stand and try to fly, 
despite the fact that she cant yet walk.  Some time should pass between 
this point and the point at which Logan leaves Ororo for Madripoor (before 
X 132) and Storm goes to Genosha (three days before X 133)  obviously 
it would take a while for Storm to get from the point shes at here to 
the apparent fitness (which we see in  X 133) that makes it easier for 
Logan to leave her.

WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 21

Chamber #1 (pages 1-12)
	One day.  Chamber and Cyclops rescue a mutant boy and bring him 
to Xaviers.  They find out about mutant murders in a recent explosion 
at ESU, at which the fall sessions probably starting soon.  (This 
explosion is probably the one referenced in The Hood #1.)  Jono convinces 
Scott that he investigate the murders undercover as a newly enrolled 
student.

WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 28	

Chamber #1 (pages 13-23)
	One day, one week after Chamber 1 pg. 1-12.  Jono is enrolled 
at ESU at the beginning of the fall semester.  Green grass and trees.  It 
must be a Wednesday.  Full moon.

THURSDAY, AUGUST 29		

Chamber #2
	The day after Chamber 1 pg. 13-23. A rainy Thursday.

FRIDAY, AUGUST 30

Chamber #3
	The day after Chamber 2.  Green grass and trees and some falling 
leaves.  It is a Friday with a full moon.

FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 13

X-Treme X-Men: Xpose #2  FB (pages 2-3)
	Same day as the end of XXX 1 pg. 5-7.  The dunked reporters retreat 
from Xaviers amid taunts from the students there.

FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 13

New X-Men #128
New X-Men #129
New X-Men #130
	X 128-130 occur during one day, most likely after XX 19.  Paris is 
rebuilt, placing this story sometime after UX 408.  Xavier and Jean are in 
Paris, visiting X-Corp.  Darkstar dies.

SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 14

X-Treme X-Men: Xpose #1 (pages 14-23)
	One day, perhaps a few weeks after XXX 1 pg. 8-13, during which 
time reporters have been gathering intel on the X-Men.  Conan and Wetherell 
are now in Los Angeles, where they visit Bishop and Sage and the weather is 
right for windsurfing.	

SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 15

X-Treme X-Men: Xpose #2 (pages 1-18)
	Probably the day after XXX 1 pg. 8-22.  This segment occurs before 
XX 20, but it must be much more than about a week before XXX 2 pg. 19-22.  
Conan and Wetherell visit Gambit and Rogue outside Los Angeles.  Gambit and 
Rogue have been on the road for weeks following XX 19.

MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 16

New X-Men #131
	One day, probably a few days after X2 130, as we see Darkstars 
funeral.  Logan is picked up from Madripoor, where I theorize he was 
called to go from New Orleans.  Since Archangel (who is back at Xaviers 
now) is still blue here, this issue must occur before UX 410.

TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 17

New X-Men #132
	Probably the day after X2 131.  A group of X-Men are on their way 
from the Paris funeral of Darkstar to India when the stop in Genosha, where 
Storm has been for three days (thus missing the funeral), so it is more 
than three days since XX 1 pg. 8-13.  Storm appears to have recovered, or 
so she may deceive herself into believing  and with Logan having left her 
for an important reason (Vatican or Madripoor), she has decided to go off 
to Genosha,  A comment by Sabra about this being the worst weekend of her 
life suggests that X2 131 occurs on Saturday and this issue on a Sunday.  
Polaris returns.  According to the introductory notes in X2 133, it is one 
year after the destruction of Genosha in X2 115, but that length of time 
may be too long  six months may be more appropriate.

WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 18

New X-Men #133
	Probably the day after NXM 132, as the X-Men arrive in India, with 
Wolverine making a stop in Afghanistan along the way.  Both Logan and 
Sunfire appear here, and it is more likely this is before their encounter 
in XU 39/2. Behind the scenes, Logan may be told by his teammates about 
Storms seeming good health in X 132, alleviating some anxiety he may feel 
about being away from her. The full moon here doesnt mesh with the one in 
UX 415.

THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 19

Uncanny X-Men #410
Uncanny X-Men #411
Uncanny X-Men #412
Uncanny X-Men #413
	UX 410-413 occur during the course of a day, a year after XF 149 
and a few weeks before UX 417.  Since this story ends with Archangel 
losing his blue skin color, it must occur after X 131, and the reference 
to calling Lorna would place it after X 132.  Warren also breaks his arm 
and leg in this story.  Xaviers, Jeans, and Logans presence in the USA 
places the story after X 133 and Jeans absence in X 134.  Chamber has gone 
off to college, so this occurs after Chamber #1, which I have placed in 
late August.  Green grass and trees in Vancouver and upstate New York.  
Jackets in Vancouver and warm weather at Xaviers.

FRIDAY-SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 20-21

New X-Men #134
	One rainy night and the next day.  Reference is made to Jean being 
in Hong Kong and expected home soon after being away for a while, but 
shes still there weeks after this in X 135.  Given the green grass and 
autumn leaves at Westchester and the reference that is made to it being 
late summer, Jean must have left Xaviers for another long-distance trip 
after UX 413.

DATES?  BETWEEN SEPTEMBER 24 AND OCTOBER 3

Wolverine v2 #177
Wolverine v2 #178
	Logan travels from New York to the Vatican to deal with evil 
Catholics.  Jeph places this during the few days between X 130 and 131, 
but another window for this story appears between UX 413 and W2 179.  
This placement may be better, as Logan is already in New York (after 
returning from Ireland), thinking that Storm is doing okay.  Temporal 
references anyone?

DATES?  BETWEEN SEPTEMBER 24 AND OCTOBER 3

Wolverine v2 #179
Wolverine v2 #180
	Logan travels from Xaviers to Canada, and so Jeph places this 
after UX 413.  Again, I dont have these issues, so temporal references 
would help.

THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26

Uncanny X-Men #414
	One day, months after X 113.  UX 412 is referred to as having 
occurred the other day. Archangel is still in a cast.  Northstar 
accepts a teaching position at Xaviers, but is injured in an explosion 
that puts him in the infirmary.  Green grass and trees in Ontario. 

SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 29

Uncanny X-Men #415
	One day, weeks after UX 413.  UX 414 is referred to as having 
occurred the other day.  It is a few days before UX 416.  Archangel is 
out of his casts, which surprises Iceman as its too soon for Warren to 
be healed.  Northstar is in the infirmary.  Green grass and trees at 
Westchester.  Full moon.

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 2

Uncanny X-Men #416
	One day, a few days after UX 415.  Sammy hasnt been assigned 
a room at Xaviers yet, presumably because everyones so busy, even 
though its been weeks since he came on board in UX 410.  Given his awe 
of X-Men, Glob Hermans appearance here probably predates his joining 
the Omega Gang in X 135.  Stacy X is released from the infirmary while 
Northstar is still recuperating.  Lorna has been called about Alex and 
is expected to arrive at Xaviers in the morning (it is not known where 
she has been since hooking back up with the X-Men in X 132).  We see green 
grass and trees at Westchester.  It is cool enough for jackets and trench 
coats.

WEDNESDAY-THURSDAY, OCTOBER 2-3

Uncanny X-Men #417
	It must be the same night as UX 416 and the next day.  It is a 
few weeks after UX 410-413.  The weather is nice enough for a game of 
catch.  Husk is dwelling on her past relationship with Chamber; this 
suggests that this issue must occur before Jonathons return to Xaviers 
at the end of Chamber #4.  Wolverine is still with the group in New York 
(suggesting that Ororo is still assumed to be safely on the mend), gets 
slashed up by Maximus Lobo.

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 3

Uncanny X-Men #418
	Same day as the end of UX 417.  Lorna arrives at Xaviers, so it 
must be the day after UX 416.  Archangel and Husk try to take on Maximus 
Lobo.  Green trees in Westchester County.

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 3

Uncanny X-Men #419
	Same day as UX 418.

FRIDAY, OCTOBER 4

X-Treme X-Men: Xpose #2 (pages 19-22)
	One evening, supposedly about a week after XXX 2 pg. 1-18, but 
given Storms and Archangels chronologies, it may be nearly three weeks 
after; this time frame is still believable for the storyline, but shouldnt 
be much longer than this.  Warren has white skin and no casts, so this 
segment must occur after UX 414.  It probably occurs after Iceman discovers 
that Warren is out of his casts in UX 415.  Warren also sports cropped hair 
(seen in UX 414-415) and a goatee (new, only place seen so far).  The snow 
falling in Manhattan starts when Ororo confronts Warren, so it may be a 
subconscious manifestation of her mood.  Warren gives her a speech about 
the X-Men needing to portray a united front, with which Ororo disagrees.  
Storm appears recovered here, but I theorize that she collapses right 
after this scene, and Logan (who would have to have healed from the Maximus 
Lobo attack, given my placement) realizes that they were kidding themselves 
into believing she was okay; he returns her to New Orleans for more 
rehabilitation.  The newspaper reads Friday, October something.  In the 
interest of shortening up the amount of time between pages 18 and 19 of 
this issue as much as possible, Ive placed it on the first Friday in 
October.

SATURDAY, OCTOBER 5

X-Treme X-Men #20
	One day and the next day.  Bishop and Sage have returned from 
California to rejoin Storm and Logan in New Orleans, where Logan oversees 
her (resumed) rehabilitation.  Logan tells Storm that nature has its own 
pace (a lesson theyve both learned now)and remarks that shes doing 
better than expected, nowhere as good as she wants.  Storm also bemoans 
the fact that her rehab is taking so long; indeed, I have her injury in 
XX 18 as having occurred a few months earlier, in July.  Sage refers to 
the events of X 115 as having occurred recently.  She also references 
the mutants they met in XXX 1 pg. 8-22, which may not have been very recent, 
given her comment, Remember California?  Bishop talks of rejoining 
Xaviers band of X-Men, and Ororo may not have shared with him her 
encounter with Archangel in XXX 2 pg. 19-22.  After investigating some 
murders on a night with a full moon (inconsistent with UX 415), Bishop 
and Sage go to Xaviers, where they encounter Emma Frost and the mutant 
responsible.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

X-Treme X-Men #21
X-Treme X-Men #22
X-Treme X-Men #23
	This story arc isnt done yet, but I theorize that, as part of 
Logans on-again assistance in the recovery of Storm, he takes her to 
Japan after this.

DATES?, EARLY OCTOBER	

Wolverine: Netsuke
	Wolverine has a Japan adventure involving Lady Deathstrike.  I 
dont have this story, so temporal references would be appreciated.  Is 
it possible that Logan flew to Japan with Ororo here, given XU 39/2?  Im 
not sure if Logans actual journey to Japan is shown here or if the story 
starts with him already there.  Help, please.

DATE?, EARLY OCTOBER	

X-Men Unlimited #39/2
	One day.  Logan and Storm encounter Sunfire in Japan, probably 
after the time Logan and Sunfire were together in the same place in X 133.  
Logan notes that hes meeting Ororo here for a little R&R (probably after 
his Netsuke adventure) because the spas in Japan heal body and mind, and 
Roro here needs some healing.  Storm is up and about and shes pretty 
feisty for someone still recovering from a serious back injury.  Her 
appearance in a new costume, not seen in any other comic to date, may be 
a clue that this story is her chronologically last costumed appearance, 
sometime after X 132.  Sunfire gives Logan and Storm 24-hours notice to 
leave Japan, another indication that Netsuke occurs before now.

DATES? OCTOBER

New X-Men #135
	One day and the next day.  One the first day, Xavier notes that 
he is opening the doors to the Institute to non-mutants in three days 
time.  Quentin Quire has changed considerably in recent weeks, since 
X 134.  Glob Herman probably appears here after UX 416.  Jean is still in 
Hong Kong, but appears here telepathically.  Logan appears telepathically, 
as well, and he may still be at Ororos side, given that he isnt seen in 
X 136.  We see green grass and trees in Westchester and its seasonable 
enough for the Special Class to go camping.

DATES? OCTOBER

New X-Men #136
	The night of the day after the end of X 135 and the morning after 
that.  The first day is a day of classes and the second day is Open Day at 
Xaviers.  Green grass and trees in Westchester and the Special Class 
continues its camping trip.

DATE? OCTOBER

New X-Men #137
	Same day as X 136.

DATES UNDETERMINED

Punisher v4 #16
Punisher v4 #17
	Logan is back in New York, perhaps because Storm is healed.  I 
dont have these issues, so temporal references would be appreciated.  
Would Punishers appearance here be before or after his Halloween appearance 
in CM6 2-FB?

DATES UNDETERMINED
			
Wolverine v2 #181
Wolverine v2 #182
Wolverine v2 #183
Wolverine v2 #184
Wolverine v2 #185
	Logan takes on the Jersey mobs.  Hes got loads to time to kill, so 
this may be an indication that Storm is healed.  I dont have these issues, 
so temporal references would be appreciated.

			*	*	*

Re: Recent X-Men chronology (revised)
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 26, 2003 at 04:52:06:
In Reply to: Recent X-Men chronology (revised)
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 25, 2003 at 18:01:45:

> DATES?, EARLY OCTOBER	

> Wolverine: Netsuke
>Im not sure if Logans actual journey to Japan is shown here or if the 
story starts with him already there.  Help, please.

We're told that Wolverine visits the Yashida estate after having dreams 
in which he is visited by the ghost of Mariko (or at least, he dreams that 
he is - the story never quite resolves this).  While we see this dream in 
flashback, the story never makes clear quite where it's located.  It might 
be his home in New York State, but it could just as easily be a bedroom in 
a Japanese hotel for all we can see.  

> DATES? OCTOBER

> New X-Men #135
> 	One day and the next day.  One the first day, Xavier notes that 
he is opening the doors to the Institute to non-mutants in three days 
time.  

This is another indication that the epilogue of Chamber #4 hasn't happened 
yet (from New X-Men's perspective), since in that scene, the X-Men had 
arranged an exchange programme with non-mutant students at Empire State 
University, and the first ones had arrived.  Of course, these were adult 
students rather than children, but it seems unlikely that Xavier would be 
drawing this rather nitpicking distinction.

> Punisher v4 #16
> Punisher v4 #17
> 	Logan is back in New York, perhaps because Storm is healed.  I 
dont have these issues, so temporal references would be appreciated.  
Would Punishers appearance here be before or after his Halloween appearance 
in CM6 2-FB?

There are no direct references in any of these stories - Ennis' Punisher 
isn't big on temporal references, although since it rarely changes the 
status quo, that's not much of a problem.  While in theory this story 
features the Punisher and Wolvering teaming up to fight evil midget 
mobsters, in reality it's just a parody of bad Wolverine stories.

Wolverine is in a bar in New York City when he gets drawn into the 
storyline (after coming across the villains by chance).  At the end of 
the story, the Punisher buys himself time to escape from Wolverine by 
kneecapping him and crushing him under a steamroller.  Not surprisingly, 
Wolverine doesn't seem terribly happy about this, and apparently we're 
going to get a "revenge" storyline in Wolverine's own book over the next 
couple of months.

The Punisher makes a brief cameo in the recent Wolverine mob arc (he 
turns up to kill some mobsters, sees Wolverine already doing the job, 
shrugs, and goes home for an early night).  Since Wolverine doesn't 
immediately break off to attack the Punisher, and the Punisher doesn't 
seem all that bothered about getting the hell out of there, the stories 
make most sense if the Wolverine mob arc takes place before his guest 
appearance in the Punisher's book.

> 	Logan takes on the Jersey mobs.  Hes got loads to time to kill, 
so this may be an indication that Storm is healed.  I dont have these 
issues, so temporal references would be appreciated.

Nothing too specific.  The basic plot of this storyline is that Wolverine 
intervenes to stop mobsters from killing a small girl as punishment for 
her father's non-payment of gambling debts.  In exchange for wiping out 
the father's debts, Wolverine agrees to defeat the rival mob.  He duly 
does so, in a series of attacks which appear to take a good week or two.  
The mob boss turns on him and tries to hold the girl hostage in order to 
force Wolverine to keep working for him.  The mob underlings (who weren't 
too impressed with this guy to start with) take this excuse to turn on 
him and depose him, in return for which Wolverine allows the replacement 
leader to remain in power.

It seems unlikely that Wolverine's out of town for more than a day or two 
during this period.

			*	*	*

Re: Recent X-Men chronology (revised)
Posted by XXX 2 and...TW 11? on January 26, 2003 at 21:06:28:
In Reply to: Recent X-Men chronology (revised)
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 25, 2003 at 18:01:45:

> FRIDAY, OCTOBER 4

> X-Treme X-Men: Xpose #2 (pages 19-22)
> 	One evening, supposedly about a week after XXX 2 pg. 1-18, but 
given Storms and Archangels chronologies, it may be nearly three weeks 
after; this time frame is still believable for the storyline, but shouldnt 
be much longer than this.  Warren has white skin and no casts, so this 
segment must occur after UX 414.  It probably occurs after Iceman discovers 
that Warren is out of his casts in UX 415.  Warren also sports cropped hair 
(seen in UX 414-415) and a goatee (new, only place seen so far).  The snow 
falling in Manhattan starts when Ororo confronts Warren, so it may be a 
subconscious manifestation of her mood.  Warren gives her a speech about 
the X-Men needing to portray a united front, with which Ororo disagrees.  
Storm appears recovered here, but I theorize that she collapses right after 
this scene, and Logan (who would have to have healed from the Maximus Lobo 
attack, given my placement) realizes that they were kidding themselves into 
believing she was okay; he returns her to New Orleans for more 
rehabilitation.  The newspaper reads Friday, October something.  In the 
interest of shortening up the amount of time between pages 18 and 19 of this 
issue as much as possible, Ive placed it on the first Friday in October.

Now that I've turned my attention back to a revision of Spider-Man's 
calendar, I've come up with a theory that I'll run up the flagpole...

Pages 19-22 of XXX 2 may actually occur on Saturday, October 19, based on 
what we're seeing in Tangled Web 11.

TW 11 is supposed to occur on "Valentine's Day," but given the reference 
to Peter's teaching (post-ASM2 32) and Flash Thompson's health (pre-PPSM2 
45), this story likely occurs in the fall.  Hmmm..how do we explain an 
autumn day in which sweethearts are giving presents and folks are thinking 
romantic thoughts?  Then it hit me...SWEETEST DAY, the third Saturday in 
October.

But then, we see snow falling in Manhattan in TW 11.  If it's not winter 
(as Valentine's Day would be), what explains the snow?  How about Storm's 
snow from XXX 2 pg. 19-22???

And the newspaper shown in XXX2 pg. 19-22 could easily be the previous 
day's paper..."Friday, October" something.

Now this would involve placing a month (instead of two weeks) between 
pages 18 and 19 of XXX 2...or moving X-issues forward in the calendar so 
that X 134 takes place, not in "late summer," but in an Indian summer.

How about it, gang?

--Paul
(beginning to know how George Olshevsky must have felt...)

			*	*	*

Re: Recent X-Men chronology (revised)
Posted by Jeph! on January 26, 2003 at 22:00:32:
In Reply to: Re: Recent X-Men chronology (revised)
posted by XXX 2 and...TW 11? on January 26, 2003 at 21:06:28:

> Now this would involve placing a month (instead of two weeks) between 
pages 18 and 19 of XXX 2...or moving X-issues forward in the calendar so 
that X 134 takes place, not in "late summer," but in an Indian summer.

> How about it, gang?

As long as the issues stay in the same relative order, go nuts.  :)  My 
new opinion towards your calendar is that, as long as the issues are in 
an order that I'm comfortable with, you can assign them whatever dates 
you want.  ;)  (And it's gratifying to see that you incorporated my take 
on XXX #2 and XX #20 -- thank you.)

And, since I mention it, I'm still looking over your newest X-chronology -- 
some good ideas in there, but I'm holding off on commenting until a few more 
issues come out (UX #419 and XX #21).

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

HELP!
Posted by French Thom on February 18, 2003 at 19:21:35:
In Reply to: Re: Recent X-Men chronology (revised)
posted by Jeph! on January 26, 2003 at 22:00:32:

Please anyone, I'm lost in my reading of the X-titles since the taking 
over of Grant Morrison and Joe Casey and Claremont's X-treme...

And I can't wait for the MCP to be updated...

How do the Annuals and the Nightcrawler, Iceman, Cyclops and Chamber LS 
and short stories from XU fit in the series?

Could anyone send me an index if possible?

Thanks a lot to anyone willing to help!

French Thom

			*	*	*

Help is on the way!
Posted by Jeph! on February 18, 2003 at 23:14:21:
In Reply to: HELP!
posted by French Thom on February 18, 2003 at 19:21:35:

Well, my most recent, but hardly "up-to-date" shot at a complete chronology 
for these stories can be found here: 
http://www.chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/messages/2293.htm

...in the thread that begins here: 
http://www.chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/messages/2263.htm

A more recent but less complete edition can be found here: 
http://www.chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/messages/2786.htm

And, if you're interested, more recent threads discussing how X-Treme X-Men, 
Soldier X, and Weapon X fit into it all can be found here:

http://www.chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/messages/3091.htm
http://www.chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/messages/3092.htm
http://www.chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/messages/3335.htm

Hope that helped.  Enjoy!

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Help is on the way!
Posted by French Thom on February 19, 2003 at 05:28:08:
In Reply to: Help is on the way!
posted by Jeph! on February 18, 2003 at 23:14:21:

Thank you, that helped, as i could not be asked ro read the thousands 
of threads on the webboard, even if i try to read as many as i can...

Cheers!

			*	*	*

TW 11
Posted by Antonio Gavio on January 27, 2003 at 00:23:29:
In Reply to: Re: Recent X-Men chronology (revised)
posted by XXX 2 and...TW 11? on January 26, 2003 at 21:06:28:

TW 11 happens on February 14. You'll see. I'm pretty much done with that 
Spider-Man chronology and should post it real soon.

			*	*	*

Chrono complexity precedent?
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 25, 2003 at 20:12:03:

We've been getting our hands dirty here for quite some time, juggling 
dozens of books and appearances.

I think the start of our heightened activity was around Maximum Security, 
increasing with 9/11, and reaching a peak with the Kang Dynasty.

There are so many stories to fit together now that it has been necessary 
to invent a calendar to keep track of them all.

It just seems to me that Marvel continuity is more complex now than it has 
ever been and that we have never seen a period where such massive 
coordination of chronologizers has been necessary to make sense of it 
all.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: Chrono complexity precedent?
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 26, 2003 at 04:33:58:
In Reply to: Chrono complexity precedent?
posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 25, 2003 at 20:12:03:

I figure the early-to-mid nineties were probably worse, if only because of 
the sheer volume of material being produced during that period (together 
with the number of crossovers and guest appearances that were published for 
promotional purposes around that time).

I think what's been causing particular difficulties recently has been (a) 
the attempt to reconcile the very unusual 9/11 Spider-Man story with 
continuity - personally I still maintain the better view is that it's not 
canon, but that's a matter of opinion; and (b) the fact that Avengers ran 
a storyline which (including the preceding mega-Hulk arc) ran for something 
like a year without convenient breaks, featuring guest appearances by all 
manner of people and tying into a Thunderbolts storyline that included 
cameos from half the Marvel Universe.  Not to mention the Order coming 
along at the same time.

Things seem to be calming down now.

			*	*	*

Re: Chrono complexity precedent?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 26, 2003 at 20:54:34:
In Reply to: Re: Chrono complexity precedent?
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 26, 2003 at 04:33:58:

I would agree that, in one sense, the MU of 10 years ago was more 
challenging, given the proliferation of titles and crossovers.  On the 
other hand, many of those crossovers were relatively short in duration 
(Inferno, Atlantis Attacks, etc.).  Recent stories have involved major, 
protracted storylines that have impacts on so many fronts:  Maximum Security, 
9/11, the Kang War, Thunderbolts, the Order, the various Black Panther 
political sagas...not to mention the Khan Invasion and Asgard-over-
Manhattan.  Then come those pesky mini-series, one-shots, "reality" series, 
etc. in which editors aren't necessarily communicating about continuity 
issues (IMHO).

--Paul 

			*	*	*

Re: Chrono complexity precedent?
Posted by garbonzo on January 28, 2003 at 23:01:15:
In Reply to: Re: Chrono complexity precedent?
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 26, 2003 at 20:54:34:

We also are seeing a proliferation of stories that are not intended to be 
bound by chronology.  In a recent Wizard interview (Wizard #134 pg. 72) 
Bill Jemas states that "the real difficulty comes from trying to carry the 
40 year history of the character into each story."  He goes on to say that 
he could ask writers to "explain away" the inconsistencies that the new 
stories are creating, but that would "interrupt the flow" of the stories.  
In other words, the new policy at Marvel comics is that the current story 
is more important than the stories of the past.  With that policy in place, 
it will make it more difficult for this website and its contributors to 
find places for the stores that are published. 

			*	*	*

Re: Chrono complexity precedent?
Posted by Administrator on January 29, 2003 at 00:14:04:
In Reply to: Re: Chrono complexity precedent?
posted by garbonzo on January 28, 2003 at 23:01:15:

Meshing with stories of the past isn't what causes the problem. It's when 
the creators believe the current story is more important than *other current 
stories* that we have difficulty settling on a placement.

			*	*	*

LEECH...LEGION II...LEGS 
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 27, 2003 at 17:18:58:

new entries marked **

LEECH
XF 12
**XF 13 (playing with Artie Pg 13 panels 1-2)
XF 15

LEGION II/DAVID HALLER
SWII 1
(NM 43)  Im not seeing Legion here
**NM 44
UX 254

LEGS/
NOM2 5
**NOM2 8

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid 
Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). 
I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I 
am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. 
Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an 
opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness 
of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

			*	*	*

X-Men Read Order Guide Now Online
Posted by bsl on January 27, 2003 at 22:00:08:

a project ive been working on a while now... any comments welcome

http://xmenguide.3utilities.com/

			*	*	*

More Hulk suggestions from the past
Posted by captamr on January 28, 2003 at 11:15:09:

My journey through Hulkdom continues:

1.	There seems to be a character missing. Jackdaw is the Leaders 
flunky throughout his battle with the Hulk in 1983. He sends this armored 
bird lady out on missions where she engages the Hulk in H2 275, betrays the 
Leader in H2 283, and eventually saves the Hulk and the Avengers in H2 284. 
She probably needs a listing:

JACKDAW
            H2 275
            H2 277
            H2 278
            H2 279
            H2 280
            H2 281
            H2 283
            H2 284
       
2.	If Jackdaw is listed, then the Leader should have a BTS listing 
for H2 275 as Jackdaw specifically states that she working under orders 
from her employer:

LEADER
            H2 225
            H@ 11
            H2 275-BTS**
            H2 277
            H2 278
       
3.	H2 284 pg. 9 has a battle scene from WW II showing Capt. America 
and Bucky fighting Nazis. Unfortunately, Im old but not that old and I 
dont know where to suggest that this appearance goes in eachs chronology. 
It does appear to be a new scene from a battle not shown before that the 
present day Capt. America dropped in on.

4.	H2 286 has the Hulk battling a warrior from the future from a 
planet ruled by Kang. They are programmed from birth by the voice of Kang 
to wage endless war (pretty lame plot for Kang  - but its not my place 
to judge). Probably needs a BTS listing:

KANG
            A 143
            H2 286-BTS**
            M/SHSW 1

5.	ABOMINATION
H2 287
H2 278-FB  No Abomination here
H2 288

Until later,
Charlie

			*	*	*

Hulk #286
Posted by Dimadick on January 28, 2003 at 11:54:57:
In Reply to: More Hulk suggestions from the past
posted by captamr on January 28, 2003 at 11:15:09:

> 4.	H2 286 has the Hulk battling a warrior from the future from a 
planet ruled by Kang. They are programmed from birth by the voice of Kang 
to wage endless war (pretty lame plot for Kang  - but its not my place to 
judge). Probably needs a BTS listing:

> KANG
>             A 143
>             H2 286-BTS**
>             M/SHSW 1

   Actualy Kang was absent during the entire story.The entire world of 
this story (a version of 41st centurie) was influenced by an old taped 
message of Kang ordering "Destroy the Enemy".The words they lived and 
died by.Some kind of project that Kang forgot about probably.For a 
profile of this storie's warrior called "Hero of the Day" see the following 
link:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/hotday.htm

   This story was my introduction to the Hulk and one I remember fondly.
Otherwise it has little influence to the Marvel Universe.

			*	*	*

Re: Hulk #286
Posted by captamr on January 29, 2003 at 00:12:08:
In Reply to: Hulk #286
posted by Dimadick on January 28, 2003 at 11:54:57:

WellI failed to appreciate this story on several levels. I liked Harlan 
Ellisons Soldier better as a Twilight Zone episode. The character had 
a lot more depth, which would convey better in a 30-minute live action 
show than in the pages of comic art. Still, I believe Mantlo could have 
done a better job. It was probably aggressive to base the story on another 
unknown character so early in the saga of the intelligent Hulk. 

My biggest disappointment comes with the idea that Kang the Conqueror 
would go to all this trouble to create a war torn planet to what purpose? 
Probably needed to explain the fact that there were no female soldiers. 
How did Kang keep the supply going? I would expect more from Kang. I did, 
however, enjoy the Brent Anderson cover!

To a more relevant point, the whole planet and conflict with the Hulk 
were based on Kang  the recorded voice of Kang, but still Kang. I 
would still suggest that this deserves a BTS listing.

Charlie

			*	*	*

Re: More Hulk suggestions from the past
Posted by DCW3 on January 29, 2003 at 14:02:19:
In Reply to: More Hulk suggestions from the past
posted by captamr on January 28, 2003 at 11:15:09:

> My journey through Hulkdom continues:

> 1.	There seems to be a character missing. Jackdaw is the Leaders 
flunky throughout his battle with the Hulk in 1983. 

One addendum: Jackdaw later changed her alias to Blackbird and appeared 
in several issues of Captain America. These appearances are listed on the 
MCP, but, as you noted, her Hulk appearances are not.

> 4.	H2 286 has the Hulk battling a warrior from the future from a 
planet ruled by Kang. They are programmed from birth by the voice of Kang 
to wage endless war (pretty lame plot for Kang  - but its not my place to 
judge). Probably needs a BTS listing:

Kang should probably have some sort of listing for H2 286, but if the 
world is based on a taped message by Kang, I would think the listing 
ought to come at the point in Kang's chronology when he made the recording. 
This might be difficult to place, but when isn't it when it comes to Kang?

			*	*	*

Re: More Hulk suggestions from the past
Posted by captamr on January 29, 2003 at 20:42:52:
In Reply to: Re: More Hulk suggestions from the past
posted by DCW3 on January 29, 2003 at 14:02:19:

>>Kang should probably have some sort of listing for H2 286, but if the 
world is based on a taped message by Kang, I would think the listing ought 
to come at the point in Kang's chronology when he made the recording<<

Im in total agreement. I chose that gap in Kangs listing by default 
since he obviously didnt cease to exist after A 143 and he could have 
dominated this world anytime during his jaunts through time. His appearance 
in the Secret Wars was never explained so the Beyonder could have plucked 
him out of the time stream even before A 143. So this almost 10-year gap 
seemed like just as good as any for him to mess with a planets whole 
population while pondering his next devious plot.

Charlie

			*	*	*

Team members
Posted by Jay Tompkins on January 28, 2003 at 14:08:43:

I have been out of the loop for quite a while - that kind of thing happens 
when the only comic store in your town closes down. I was going to get some 
subscriptions, but I was wondering: who's on which of the X-teams? I'd like 
to follow my favourite characters and don't know where they've ended up ...

Also, where did the kids of Gen-X go off to when that series ended?

			*	*	*

Re: Team members
Posted by THE NIGHTMARE on January 28, 2003 at 22:56:20:
In Reply to: Team members
posted by Jay Tompkins on January 28, 2003 at 14:08:43:

I too have felt the impact of a store closing.

if fact I went through it twice. (But I still get my comics cheap!) As for 
your last question I can tell you what happen to some of the characters 
from Gen X.

CHAMBER: He went on to be an X-Man in Uncanny   X-men
White Queen/Emma Frost: She is part of the title X-Men
Jubilee, Husk, Monet (M), Banshee (along with a handful of other mutants 
formed a type of mutant military force to find more mutants. Read the 
past issues (dated 2001-02) of Uncanny X-Men for the story involving them.

As for the X-Teams...I know that there are three of them, Uncanny X-Men, 
X-Men, and X-Tream X-Men.

I am currently seven months behind in reading and I don't know the most 
current line-ups yet. However I could come up with a list of them sometime...
when I'm not so busy.

I hope this helps you.

			*	*	*

Re: Team members
Posted by Dimadick on January 29, 2003 at 09:29:02:
In Reply to: Team members
posted by Jay Tompkins on January 28, 2003 at 14:08:43:

Last time I checked the teams included the following members.

New X-Men:
1)Professor X/Charles Francis Xavier.
2)Phoenix/Jean Grey Summers.
3)Cyclops/Scott Summers.
4)Beast/Henry Philip "Hank" McCoy.
5)Wolverine/James "Logan" Howlett(part-time).
6)White Queen/Emma Grace Frost.
7)Xorn.

Uncany X-Men:
1)Nighcrawler/Kurt Wagner.
2)Archangel/Warren kenneth Worthington III.
3)Iceman/Robert Louis "Bobby" Drake.
4)Wolverine/James "Logan" Howlett(part time).
5)Chamber/Jonothon Evan Starsmore.(on leave on a personaly assigned mission).
6)Stacy X.
7)Northstar/Jean Paul Baubier.

X-Treme X-Men:
1)Storm/Ororo Munroe.
2)Rogue.
3)Lucas Bishop.
4)Thunderbird/Neal Sharra.
5)Sage/Tessa.
6)Lifeguard/Heather Warbeck-Cameron.
7)Gambit/Remy LeBeau.(not officialy a part of the team but has been following 
their missions lately.

Does any of the three teams include any of your favorite characters?

The Generation X graduates:

1)Chamber/Jonothon Evan Starsmore.He went to London and became the lover 
of popsinger Sugar Kane.Joined the X-Men after shebroke up with him.He is 
on leave investigating a murder case in a University, enroled as one of 
the students.Awaited to return to the X-Men after this mission.

2)Jubilee.Went to L.A and pursued a career as an actress unsuccesfuly.She 
was recruited in X-Corps.After this group's disband she was last seen in 
Paris observing Bansee's recovery.

3)Husk/Paige Elisabeth Guthrie.She was recruited in X-Corps.After its 
disband she followed the X-Men home.She is currently a resident at the 
Xavier Institute.She recently had a fight with Stacy X because they are 
both attracted to Archangel.She is going to help the Uncany team in their 
missions and possibly join the team.

4)M/Monet Yvette Clarisse Maria Therese St.Croix.She joined the X-Corps.After 
its disband she joined X-Corporation Paris.She has helped both the New and 
the Uncany teams in their missions but remains a in X-Corporation Paris.

5)Skin/Angelo Espinosa.He went to L.A and shared an apartment with 
Jubilee.After Jubilee left he might still be there.

Dissapointed at the way the characters are currently treated?

			*	*	*

Thanks both
Posted by Jay on January 29, 2003 at 22:35:30:
In Reply to: Re: Team members
posted by Dimadick on January 29, 2003 at 09:29:02:

Thanks to both of you for the info ... it's quite enlightening and 
informative. And yes, indeed, I am very upset with how some of the characters 
have been getting treated.

Gen-X had a great opportunity to use fresh new characters and were all 
very individual. There was potential there with each of the characters 
they had developed for that series, and to completely squander it like 
that is ludicrous.

Likewise, the treatment of Gambit is just apalling. Debatedly one of the 
most popular characters in the X-Universe, and they strip him of his own 
series and bump him from a main role to someone who just kind of follows 
a spare team occasionally? Man, this company has changed ... and I'm not 
so sure of how much of the better has come out of it.

			*	*	*

Re: Thanks both
Posted by Dimadick on January 30, 2003 at 07:59:00:
In Reply to: Thanks both
posted by Jay on January 29, 2003 at 22:35:30:

> Gen-X had a great opportunity to use fresh new characters and were all 
very individual. There was potential there with each of the characters 
they had developed for that series, and to completely squander it like 
that is ludicrous.

  True.I am not realy familiar with these characters but they do seem to 
have potential.At list during the X-Corps story they seemed to have some 
teamwork.By the way that fight between Husk and Stacy X is one of my least-
favorite scenes of an X-Men book.Insulting for both characters and a 
pathetic attempt at drama.The other X-Men playing the stunned chorus 
didn't help either.

> Likewise, the treatment of Gambit is just apalling. Debatedly one of the 
most popular characters in the X-Universe, and they strip him of his own 
series and bump him from a main role to someone who just kind of follows 
a spare team occasionally?

  I never truly understood the reasons for Gambit's popularity but since 
he has served as team leader before and only Storm and Rogue are more 
experienced members than him in this team he could at least could an 
equaly important role to them in a team mainly consistent of rookies.

> Man, this company has changed ... and I'm not so sure of how much of 
the better has come out of it.

  I am not  sure about that.The Marvel books I am currently reading 
include all three X-Men titles, Wolverine, Fantastic Four and Peter 
Parker-Spiderman and they all had rather enjoyable and occasionaly 
interesting stories lately.But many good characters seem to have ended 
up in limbo in favor of ill-defined newer ones and most "current" stories 
seem to aim at prooving how "modern" they are rather than  developing the 
characters.There are a number of promising ideas in there but Marvel's 
"Revolutionary period" has its flaws.

			*	*	*

Re: Thanks both
Posted by Jeph! on January 30, 2003 at 12:56:00:
In Reply to: Re: Thanks both
posted by Dimadick on January 30, 2003 at 07:59:00:

Folks, I'm not the moderator, but can we possibly take this conversation 
to a message board where it's on-topic?

I suggest http://www.comicboards.com/xmb/

This board is about the CHRONOLOGY of the Marvel Universe -- most of the 
folks here don't even care about the X-Men and Gen-X kids' characters or 
"treatment".  It's sort of a waste of our time to read through your posts, 
checking to see if you're trying to discuss any chronological points...

Thanks for understanding, guys.

Jeph!

			*	*	*

Gilgamesh in Tales of the Zombie#3
Posted by John McDonagh on January 28, 2003 at 16:09:02:

Gilgamesh appears in a story in Tales of the Zombie#3 that takes place in 
medieval Japan. 

			*	*	*

Comic Collection: How many do you own?
Posted by THE NIGHTMARE on January 28, 2003 at 23:20:42:

I tried to find on the internet any listing of the largest private comic 
book collections, but I have yet to find any. I did find out that the 
Library of Congress has (possibly) the largest collection in the U.S. That 
collection is public. I'm trying to find the largest PRIVATE collections 
of comics. So, I ask you the fans and readers of comics, how many comics 
do you have in your own collections? I have a approximately 9,390 as of 
the end of January 2003.

Sorry about asking about this on the board, but it's the only place I 
know of where I might get some responses.

			*	*	*

Re: Comic Collection: How many do you own?
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 29, 2003 at 08:28:37:
In Reply to: Comic Collection: How many do you own?
posted by THE NIGHTMARE on January 28, 2003 at 23:20:42:

A better place might be the Usenet newsgroup rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe  
It's accessible through Google.  FWIW, I only have about 2300, around 1700 
of them being Marvel.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

ATTN: Paul B, re: Alias
Posted by SKleefeld on January 29, 2003 at 12:24:41:

Hey, Paul --

Just a quick note to let you know that I've got Alias from about #10 up and 
all of Daredevil. I know you were looking to figure out how Alias and DD 
worked. As Russ knows, I've been a mite busy though and haven't been around 
here much lately.  As soon as I can, though, I'll post some of the crossover 
points from both books.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: ATTN: Paul B, re: Alias
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 29, 2003 at 21:11:51:
In Reply to: ATTN: Paul B, re: Alias
posted by SKleefeld on January 29, 2003 at 12:24:41:

Thanks, Sean -- that would be great.  I did notice it's been a while since 
we've heard from you...

--Paul

			*	*	*

Reversed Avengers
Posted by Mithrandir on January 29, 2003 at 17:32:32:

A question:  In Marvel Team-Up #7, Spider-Man and Thor encounter a room 
full of Avengers who have been frozen and "color reversed."  One of them 
is clearly Iron Man, but who are the man and woman to the left of the panel?

--Tom Bradford
"I am Locutus of Telos"

			*	*	*

Re: Reversed Avengers
Posted by Jeph! on February 15, 2003 at 10:52:15:
In Reply to: Reversed Avengers
posted by Mithrandir on January 29, 2003 at 17:32:32:

You know, I stared at that page for a good long time, but I have no idea.  
Sorry.

And it's MTU #9, not #7.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Reversed Avengers
Posted by mithrandir on February 22, 2003 at 12:28:18:
In Reply to: Re: Reversed Avengers
posted by Jeph! on February 15, 2003 at 10:52:15:

> You know, I stared at that page for a good long time, but I have no idea.  
Sorry.

Someone else wass kind enough to point out to me that the characters are 
the Scarlet Witch and Fandral the Dashing (who was apparently crossing over 
with Avengers at the time.  My 70's Thor collection is sparse-to-nonexistent.)

> And it's MTU #9, not #7.

No I'm actually talking about MTU #7, you may be thinking of the later 
Iron Man/Avengers/Kang/Zarrko storyline.

--Tom Bradford

			*	*	*

About the passing of Marvel Time
Posted by Dimadick on January 31, 2003 at 04:01:01:

For those of you interested in the passing of Marvel Time there may be a 
clue in New X-Men #134.Quentin Quire (later Kid Omega) claims that the 
newspaper article he holds in his hands "Mutants: Are they for Real?" was 
published on the day of his own birth.That article is based on the 
statements of Dr.Bolivar Trask and was published during the events of 
Uncany X-Men #14, the first appearance of the Sentinels.This issue was 
published under a "November, 1965" date and its cronologicaly close to 
the marriage ceremony of Reed Richards/Mr Fantastic Susan Storm/Invisible 
Woman in Fantastic Four Annual #3 published under a "December 1965" date.
Any estimation of Quentin's age and how long it has been since the events 
of Uncany X-Men #14 and Fantastic Four Annual #3?

By the way the later Annual was notable at its time as it featured most 
of Marvel's costumed characters .Characters present during the issue include
(thanks to the 4 Freedoms Plaza site for the list):

Appearances by:
1)Mr Fantastic.
2)Invisible Girl.
3)Human Torch.
4)Thing.
5)Alicia Masters
6)Dr. Doom
7)Puppet Master
8)Iron Man
9)Nick Fury
10)Red Ghost
11)Mole Man
12)Professor X
13)Cyclops
14)Ms. Marvel
15)Angel
16)Beast
17)Iceman
18)Dr. Strange
19)Thor
20)Grey Gargoyle
21)Mandarin
22)Kang
23)Mad Thinkers' Android
24)Black Knight I
25)Daredevil
26)Captain America
27)Enchantress
28)Executioner
29)Cobra
30)Mr. Hyde
31)Hawkeye
32)Spider-Man
33)Electro
34)Beetle
35)Living Laser
36)Mad Thinker
37)Quicksilver
38)Attuma
39)Uatu
40)Stan Lee
41)Jack Kirby
42)Sub-Mariner
43)Willie Lumpkin
44)Impossible Man

Any ideas of how long has it been since that marriage based in the 
characters present?

			*	*	*

A correction
Posted by Dimadick on January 31, 2003 at 04:08:06:
In Reply to: About the passing of Marvel Time
posted by Dimadick on January 31, 2003 at 04:01:01:

A correction.According to the Marvel chronology project the events of 
Uncany X-Men #14(and Quentin Quire's birth) immediately follow those of 
Fantastic Four Annual #3.So any ideas of how long it has been between then 
and current stories?

			*	*	*

Re: A correction
Posted by Kevin  on January 31, 2003 at 08:27:19:
In Reply to: A correction
posted by Dimadick on January 31, 2003 at 04:08:06:

Well Quenten looks like a 16 year old to me, but I suppose he could be 14 
or 15. I wouldn't say 13 though.  That would put about 15 years having 
passed in the Marvel Universe since UX 14.  That's debateable though.

			*	*	*

Marvel time
Posted by Antonio Gavio on January 31, 2003 at 11:55:36:
In Reply to: A correction
posted by Dimadick on January 31, 2003 at 04:08:06:

At George Olshevsky's rate for his indexes of three Marvel years for one 
Real time year I'd say it's been almost 14 years since FF 1.

			*	*	*

Passage of Marvel Time
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 31, 2003 at 19:35:07:
In Reply to: A correction
posted by Dimadick on January 31, 2003 at 04:08:06:

According to Olshevsky, UX 14 occurs in July of the summer between Peter 
Parker's senior year of high school and freshman year of college.  This 
is a little more than two years after Ben Parker's death in Amazing Fantasy 
#15 (which I estimate as May of Peter's sophomore year in high school).

So X 134 occurs Quentin Quire's age plus 26 months after Ben Parker died.  
So the question remains: how old is Quentin?  I'd place him at 16 years 
old going on 17.  That would put about 19 years between AF 15 and X 134.  
FF 1 probably happened months before AF 15.  So an estimate for Marvel Time 
since FF 1 would be twenty years.

Actually, that's what I've been suggesting, offering a Marvel date of 1981 
for current stories (twenty years after the MU 1961 date of FF 1) -- now 
approaching 1982.

So much for that old constant ten-year rule, which I never bought.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: About the passing of Marvel Time
Posted by Paul Bourcier on February 04, 2003 at 19:32:02:
In Reply to: About the passing of Marvel Time
posted by Dimadick on January 31, 2003 at 04:01:01:

Well, it looks like someone at Marvel (writer Sam Kieth) is thinking that 
it's been more like 20 years (instead of a perpetual 10 or 14) since FF 1.

In Hulk/Wolverine #3, Bruce Banner discusses an incident that occurred "a 
few weeks" before the Gamma bomb explosion in H 1.  In this same issue, 
Logan refers to that incident as having occurred "twenty friggin' years" 
ago.  And H 1 occurred around the same time as FF 3 (according to the Marvel 
Saga, I think).

I estimate that UX 14 (July of the summer before Peter Parker's freshman 
year of college -- Olshevsky) occurred about two and a half MU years after 
H 1.  This would make Quentin Quire 17 years old in the MU July that 
recently passed, and likely a high school senior.

But then there's that pesky Franklin Richards, born late in the summer 
between Peter Parker's freshman and sophomore years of college (Olshevsky).  
This would make him 13 months younger than Quentin Quire -- a boy who should 
have turned 16 in the MU August just passed!  Somethin's up with that boy!

--Paul

			*	*	*

DD-Alias
Posted by SKleefeld on January 31, 2003 at 21:33:57:

OK, I don't have quite as many issues of Alias as I thought, but here's 
what I can show...

DD 32 -- Daredevil's identity revealed on the last page
DD 33-35 -- The immediate aftermath of the newspaper report. We've already 
discussed this at length with regard to the rest of the MU.
Alias 14 -- There's casual mention in dialogue of Daredevil's identity, 
but it sounds as if it's still making headlines. As near as I can tell, 
Murdock seems to hire Jessica as a "bodyguard" shortly after this issue.
Alias 15 ~ DD 36 -- Jessica and Luke Cage have been hired by Murdock as 
bodyguards. The Black Widow visits Murdock at the office. We see her 
enter and leave the office in both issues. Jessica and Luke talk outside 
the door, while Widow and Matt talk inside. The Human Torch and Spider-Man 
cameo, battling Dr. Octopus later that night in Alias, while Jessica is 
having dinner with Scott Lang.
DD 37-41 -- Trial of the White Tiger. Cameos of Mr. Fantastic, Dr. Strange, 
Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Jessica Jones.
Alias 16 -- There's a noted break between 15 and 16 and, as you'll see 
explained shortly, I've used this break to put the entirety of the White 
Tiger trial. At the end of the issue, Jessica meets with JJJameson.
Alias 17 (flashback) -- the meeting with JJJ continues. There are actually 
a few flashbacks that run back and forth through this issue. The flashbacks 
all go in sequence however throughout the course of one night and the next 
day, as do the flashforwards (which occur later that next night). There's 
mention of Captain America revealing his identity and how it's all over 
the TV. Jessica hadn't seen this yet, suggesting it just happened in the 
past day or so. Madame Web cameo.
Alias 17 -- Jessica and Scott Lang...um... are together. She stops them 
because the earlier part of the evening (see flashbacks) bugged her.
Alias 18 -- Picks up right after previous issue. Warbird calls Jessica 
from the Avengers Mansion. (We don't actually see Carol, just hear her 
voice on the phone.) That leads to the next day, where Jessica stops by 
Matt's office to have...
Alias 18 ~ DD 42 -- the Tara Woods interview conducted on the street is 
duplicated in both issues.

And that brings us up to the current issue of both books. There's enough 
fairly blatant references that placing Alias shouldn't be too difficult.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

DD-Alias -- I knew this would be a problem...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on February 01, 2003 at 14:12:44:
In Reply to: DD-Alias 
posted by SKleefeld on January 31, 2003 at 21:33:57:

> OK, I don't have quite as many issues of Alias as I thought, but 
here's what I can show...

And you show a lot!  I had a sneaking feeling Alias provided clues about 
chronological placement.  Read on...

> DD 32 -- Daredevil's identity revealed on the last page
> DD 33-35 -- The immediate aftermath of the newspaper report. We've 
already discussed this at length with regard to the rest of the MU.
> Alias 14 -- There's casual mention in dialogue of Daredevil's identity, 
but it sounds as if it's still making headlines. As near as I can tell, 
Murdock seems to hire Jessica as a "bodyguard" shortly after this issue.
> Alias 15 ~ DD 36 -- Jessica and Luke Cage have been hired by Murdock as 
bodyguards. The Black Widow visits Murdock at the office. We see her enter 
and leave the office in both issues. Jessica and Luke talk outside the 
door, while Widow and Matt talk inside. The Human Torch and Spider-Man 
cameo, battling Dr. Octopus later that night in Alias, while Jessica is 
having dinner with Scott Lang.

First potential problem: Scott Lang.  Is Ant-Man referred to as being an 
Avenger here?  Officially, this doesn't happen until A3 62 (and Ant-Man's 
ongoing association with the Assemblers doesn't begin until A3 57.)  I 
wonder if we can be more precise about placement of Alias #15 and segments 
of DD2 36.

And, geez...yet another cameo battle between Spidey and Doc Ock?  And we 
can't even identify it as a battle published elsewhere as the Human Torch 
is involved.  Grrr.

> DD 37-41 -- Trial of the White Tiger. Cameos of Mr. Fantastic, Dr. 
Strange, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Jessica Jones.

Some corrections for the record:  DD2 38-40 features the White Tiger story.  
DD2 37 continues from DD2 36.  DD2 41 occurs right before DD2 46, probably 
at the same time as Alias #17, from your description.  But yes, it seems 
that the White Tiger story would have to fit between Alias #15 and #16.

> Alias 16 -- There's a noted break between 15 and 16 and, as you'll see 
explained shortly, I've used this break to put the entirety of the White 
Tiger trial. At the end of the issue, Jessica meets with JJJameson.
> Alias 17 (flashback) -- the meeting with JJJ continues. There are 
actually a few flashbacks that run back and forth through this issue. 
The flashbacks all go in sequence however throughout the course of one 
night and the next day, as do the flashforwards (which occur later that 
next night). There's mention of Captain America revealing his identity 
and how it's all over the TV. Jessica hadn't seen this yet, suggesting 
it just happened in the past day or so. Madame Web cameo.

Problem #2: Captain America.  This bit of information seems to answer 
the old thread about which came first: DD's unmasking or Cap's?  Alias 
provides the answer -- first DD, then Cap.  Cap's unmasking occurs in 
CA4 3, which continues from issues #1 and #2.  Combined with the Ant-Man 
note above, this means that Cap's current series (vol. 4) doesn't begin 
until after A3 62.

This may not be an issue from the standpoint of relative chronology (as 
I don't think there are any references to Cap's ID being known in Avengers 
up through A3 62).  However, it does pose challenges for a calendar.  CA3 
4 is supposed to occur on July 4.  That pushes the whole DD-unmasking 
storyline to June and earlier.  Now this does make Kevin's original calendar 
for DD valid (based on the April 18 date shown in DD2 32).  But it does 
shove that storyline back into the Kang War...unless major readjustments 
to the calendar can make it all fit.  (Ugh!)  In any case, there's still 
no way CA4 1 occurs on Easter; that would force everything through A3 62 
and the DD-unmasking story back to April and earlier, and that would be 
extremely difficult to schedule -- other temporal clues would have to be 
discounted.

> Alias 17 -- Jessica and Scott Lang...um... are together. She stops them 
because the earlier part of the evening (see flashbacks) bugged her.
> Alias 18 -- Picks up right after previous issue. Warbird calls Jessica 
from the Avengers Mansion. (We don't actually see Carol, just hear her 
voice on the phone.) That leads to the next day, where Jessica stops by 
Matt's office to have...
> Alias 18 ~ DD 42 -- the Tara Woods interview conducted on the street is 
duplicated in both issues.

> And that brings us up to the current issue of both books. There's enough 
fairly blatant references that placing Alias shouldn't be too difficult.

Well, it does sound like placing Alias itself should be simple; it's just 
that placing all the other books is now more difficult.  :(

To summarize your notes and add some of Kevin's data, we seem to have the 
following order:

DD2 (up through page 18 of DD2 35)
Alias 14
DD2 35 (pages 19-22)
DD2 36 (pages 1-4)
A3 57-62
Alias 15
DD2 36 (pages 5-21)
DD2 37-40
CA3 1-3
Alias 16-17 and DD2 41
Alias 18 and DD2 42

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: DD-Alias -- I knew this would be a problem...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on February 01, 2003 at 14:56:21:
In Reply to: DD-Alias -- I knew this would be a problem...
posted by Paul Bourcier on February 01, 2003 at 14:12:44:

> First potential problem: Scott Lang.  Is Ant-Man referred to as being an 
Avenger here? 

Scott refers to himself as having "Avengers status" in ALIAS #15.  He claims 
that this is how he was able to do some research on her background before 
meeting her.  He doesn't explicitly say that he's an active member, but I 
would take it that he's joined the team by this point.

			*	*	*

Re: DD-Alias -- I knew this would be a problem...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on February 01, 2003 at 20:40:02:
In Reply to: Re: DD-Alias -- I knew this would be a problem...
posted by Paul O'Brien on February 01, 2003 at 14:56:21:

It would be easier to equate "Avengers status" with official Avengers 
membership, but Lang simply may have security access to Avengers databases 
because of his past work as an associate of the group.  Follow-up question: 
any appearance or mention of Cassie Lang in Alias?  That would be a tip-off, 
given Scott's loss of custody of Cassie in A3 62.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: DD-Alias -- I knew this would be a problem...
Posted by SKleefeld on February 01, 2003 at 21:46:35:
In Reply to: Re: DD-Alias -- I knew this would be a problem...
posted by Paul Bourcier on February 01, 2003 at 20:40:02:

> > > First potential problem: Scott Lang.  Is Ant-Man referred to as being 
an Avenger here? 

> > Scott refers to himself as having "Avengers status" in ALIAS #15.  He 
claims that this is how he was able to do some research on her background 
before meeting her.  He doesn't explicitly say that he's an active member, 
but I would take it that he's joined the team by this point.

> It would be easier to equate "Avengers status" with official Avengers 
membership, but Lang simply may have security access to Avengers databases 
because of his past work as an associate of the group.  Follow-up question: 
any appearance or mention of Cassie Lang in Alias?  That would be a tip-off, 
given Scott's loss of custody of Cassie in A3 62.

No sightings of Cassie that I'm aware of. Most of Scott's time in Alias is 
either away from home, or late at night in bed.

When Carol calls Jessica in #18, she says she just got a CALL from Scott. 
Meaning he didn't go TO the Avengers Mansion, where Carol was, implying 
Scott might not be back on active duty yet. (Yes, it could mean it was just 
quicker.)<p>Let me point out too, before it's asked, that Carol is only AT 
the Mansion. She doesn't specify her Avengers status in any way.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

...another thought
Posted by SKleefeld on February 01, 2003 at 21:48:13:
In Reply to: Re: DD-Alias -- I knew this would be a problem...
posted by SKleefeld on February 01, 2003 at 21:46:35:

Just had another thought. Does it mention in Avengers whether or not Scott 
is living AT the Avengers Mansion? Because all of his appearances in Alias 
have him return to his apartment.

Just a thought.

-- Sean	

			*	*	*

Re: ...another thought
Posted by Paul Bourcier on February 01, 2003 at 22:00:18:
In Reply to: ...another thought
posted by SKleefeld on February 01, 2003 at 21:48:13:

> Just had another thought. Does it mention in Avengers whether or not 
Scott is living AT the Avengers Mansion? Because all of his appearances in 
Alias have him return to his apartment.

> Just a thought.

Scott has not yet lived at Avengers Mansion.  I'm inclined to think that, 
in the Alias appearances, Scott has not yet achieved official membership in 
the Avengers but enjoys some "status" as an associate of the team, with 
access privileges to certain information held by the Assemblers.  That 
would make life much easier!

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: ...another thought
Posted by Paul O'Brien on February 02, 2003 at 11:05:24:
In Reply to: ...another thought
posted by SKleefeld on February 01, 2003 at 21:48:13:

>Because all of his appearances in Alias have him return to his apartment.

This is another problem - in Marvel Double-Shot #3, there's an Ant-Man 
story showing, basically, Scott Lang as an overprotective father to Cassie.  
In that story, they're clearly living in a house, not an apartment.  It all 
looks rather suburban.

This would tend to suggest that Scott may have moved into the smaller 
apartment after losing custody of Cassie, in order to be closer to the 
mansion but still have his own home.

			*	*	*

Re: ...another thought
Posted by Paul Bourcier on February 03, 2003 at 07:30:01:
In Reply to: Re: ...another thought
posted by Paul O'Brien on February 02, 2003 at 11:05:24:

> >Because all of his appearances in Alias have him return to his apartment.

> This is another problem - in Marvel Double-Shot #3, there's an Ant-Man 
story showing, basically, Scott Lang as an overprotective father to Cassie.  
In that story, they're clearly living in a house, not an apartment.  It all 
looks rather suburban.

> This would tend to suggest that Scott may have moved into the smaller 
apartment after losing custody of Cassie, in order to be closer to the 
mansion but still have his own home.	

Good observation.  I'm sorking on making Ant-Man's chronology work so that 
A3 62 occurs before Alias 13.  More later...

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: DD-Alias -- I knew this would be a problem...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on February 02, 2003 at 11:01:31:
In Reply to: Re: DD-Alias -- I knew this would be a problem...
posted by SKleefeld on February 01, 2003 at 21:46:35:

> When Carol calls Jessica in #18, she says she just got a CALL from Scott. 
Meaning he didn't go TO the Avengers Mansion, where Carol was, implying 
Scott might not be back on active duty yet. (Yes, it could mean it was just 
quicker.)

The earlier scene was in Scott's bedroom, which was presumably not in the 
Avengers Mansion.  But that doesn't necessarily mean he isn't an active 
Avenger at this point - he HAS a house in New York, so he wouldn't 
necessarily move into the mansion.

			*	*	*

Re: DD-Alias -- I knew this would be a problem...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on February 04, 2003 at 07:18:22:
In Reply to: Re: DD-Alias -- I knew this would be a problem...
posted by SKleefeld on February 01, 2003 at 21:46:35:

> > > > First potential problem: Scott Lang.  Is Ant-Man referred to as being 
an Avenger here? 

> > > Scott refers to himself as having "Avengers status" in ALIAS #15.  He 
claims that this is how he was able to do some research on her background 
before meeting her.  He doesn't explicitly say that he's an active member, 
but I would take it that he's joined the team by this point.

> > It would be easier to equate "Avengers status" with official Avengers 
membership, but Lang simply may have security access to Avengers databases 
because of his past work as an associate of the group.  Follow-up question: 
any appearance or mention of Cassie Lang in Alias?  That would be a tip-off, 
given Scott's loss of custody of Cassie in A3 62.

> No sightings of Cassie that I'm aware of. Most of Scott's time in Alias is 
either away from home, or late at night in bed.

Actually, Antonio Gavino notified me that there IS a reference to Cassie 
in Alias #15.  Scott tells Jessica that he doesn't know what he would do 
without out her.  This suggests placement before A3 62.  Maybe Scott loses 
custody during the gap between Alias #15 and #16.  I'm curious about the 
whole apartment vs. house vs. mansion situation.  Is there any evidence 
that any scene in Alias with Scott at home is NOT the suburban home from 
Double-Shot? I can't see Scott moving from his house into an apartment 
instead of into Avengers Mansion.
