Deadbolt of the Dark Riders corrections
Posted by Aaron Stanley on April 01, 2003 at 14:24:54:

Deadbolt was NOT in c2 #18, so, it would be:
C2 #17
C2 #19
X `95
then his wolverine appearances

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MAX...DJANGO MAXIMOFF...MAYHEM
Posted by Arthur Stein on April 01, 2003 at 18:17:26:

new entries marked **

MAX
**COMET 1
**COMET 3
**COMET 4
**COMET 5
**COMET 6
**FF 315
**FF 316
**FF 317
M/CP 50/2
M/CP 51/2

MAXIMOFF, DJANGO
A 166
**A 173
A 181

MAYHEM/DET. BRIGID O'REILLY
C&D3 4
**C&D3 5
C&D3 6

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#77

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THOR question + Alien Toaster
Posted by Ry on April 02, 2003 at 01:53:26:

To all you Marvelers out there who still have their comics instead of their parents zorching them away: A friend and I are trying to remember:

What was THOR's folding ship's NAME he kept in his pocket?

And...I think this was in Marvel also...A short story filler, maybe 3 pages: Plot: a guy sees a mysterious broadcast by an alien being on his TV, who shows him how to build some kind of Time Machine, or something similar out of a toaster.  Of course the toaster breaks later in the story and he can't tune in the alien TV signal again to fix the Time Machine toaster.

Anybody have a copy of that?

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Re: THOR question + Alien Toaster
Posted by Cook on April 02, 2003 at 13:53:30:
In Reply to: THOR question + Alien Toaster
posted by Ry on April 02, 2003 at 01:53:26:

If I remember correctly, the ship that you are referring to was named Skidbladner (owned by Frey in Norse mythology)

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Sub-Mariner reprint questions
Posted by Jeph! on April 02, 2003 at 02:45:47:

Quick reprint question for anyone familiar with the "Sub-Mariner" series from the early 1970s.

1)  Are the "Tales of Atlantis" back-up stories in Sub-Mariner #62 and 64 reprints, or are they original to those issues?

2)  Is the "Namor battles the Mer-Mutants" back-up story in #54 a reprint?

3)  The Bill Everett 4-page back-up story in #54, "the Sub-Mariner Gets a Lesson in Humility from Namora", has GOT to be a reprint from a Golden Age book -- but which one?

Thanks in advance...

-Jeph!

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Re: Sub-Mariner reprint questions
Posted by Russ Chappell on April 02, 2003 at 23:46:26:
In Reply to: Sub-Mariner reprint questions
posted by Jeph! on April 02, 2003 at 02:45:47:

> 1)  Are the "Tales of Atlantis" back-up stories in Sub-Mariner #62 and 64 reprints, or are they original to those issues?

The backups in 62-66 were all originals.

> 2)  Is the "Namor battles the Mer-Mutants" back-up story in #54 a reprint?

No.

> 3)  The Bill Everett 4-page back-up story in #54, "the Sub-Mariner Gets a Lesson in Humility from Namora", has GOT to be a reprint from a Golden Age book -- but which one?

Sub-Mariner Comics #39.

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Re: Sub-Mariner reprint questions
Posted by Jeph! on April 03, 2003 at 07:37:38:
In Reply to: Re: Sub-Mariner reprint questions
posted by Russ Chappell on April 02, 2003 at 23:46:26:

Thanks a million, Russ!

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Baron Zemo's pilot
Posted by Jhaeman on April 02, 2003 at 10:25:04:

Read a reprint of Captain America # 100 recently, where at the end it's revealed that "Baron Zemo" was actually the man's pilot.  Two questions: is the pilot listed in the MCP and are any of what was thought to be Zemo's exploits attributed to the pilot?  Danke!

Jhaeman
Comics That Time Forgot:  http://www.geocities.com/jhaeman

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Re: Baron Zemo's pilot
Posted by Cook on April 02, 2003 at 13:55:24:
In Reply to: Baron Zemo's pilot
posted by Jhaeman on April 02, 2003 at 10:25:04:

Here's some great info on Zemo's pilot

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/gruberfr.htm

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Re: The Foreigner's Appearances--Addendum
Posted by John Omohundro on April 04, 2003 at 08:09:02:

Ladies and Gentlemen of the MCP, and Jhaeman:

I owe you all an apology.

It  was *NEVER*, *EVER* my intention to come across as condescending, as a smarta**, or whatever.

I was merely trying to help you with what I saw as a problem and, in my efforts to be polite, I went *TOO FAR* and came across as *CONDESCENDING*. 

*THAT* was *COMPLETELY UNINTENTIONAL*, and I hope you will accept my sincere apology for my poor manners.

Also, after having read the FAQ --per Jhaeman's advice-- I hope I won't make the same mistake again.

I've learned that Mr. Murphy (he of "Murphy's Law" fame) was right about another of his suggestions:

"When all else fails, *READ THE INSTRUCTIONS*." :)

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Re: The Foreigner's Appearances--Addendum
Posted by Jhaeman on April 05, 2003 at 16:32:08:
In Reply to: Re: The Foreigner's Appearances--Addendum
posted by John Omohundro on April 04, 2003 at 08:09:02:

Don't worry about it--I was just teasing you a little :)  We certainly appreciate all the help we can get!

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MENTOR...MEPHISTO...MERCY
Posted by Arthur Stein on April 05, 2003 at 11:19:31:

new entries marked **

MENTOR/ALARS [ETERNAL]
CM 29
**M/FEA 12
CM 31

MEPHISTO
**GR2 77-FB (pg 3  Pg 6/5)
GR3 11-FB
..  ..  ..  ..  ..
T 181
**SS 16
SS 17
.. .. .. .. ..
M/SS 1
**A 173
T 310
..  ..  ..  ..  ..
FF 277
**DRSTR2 75
T@ 13

MERCY
**H2 338
H@ 16

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#78

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Endotherm and Jack of Hearts appearances
Posted by garbonzo on April 05, 2003 at 15:06:10:

As I was going through some recent quarter bin finds, I came across two appearances that I cannot locate on the MCP.  The first is for Endotherm/Tom Wilkins.  He appears in IM 136 when he battles Iron Man.  As far as I know, this is his only appearance.  There is some reference to activities over "the past few weeks," but a eck of previous comics does not yield any appearances, or anything that would qualify as a BTS.

The second is Jack of Hearts.  He makes an appearance in SS3 78.  I realize that this book falls into the dreaded "gap."  After checking the closing the gap section, I was unable to locate this book as needing to be analyzed.  I would be more than happy to analyze the book ineeded.  I would place Jack of Hearts appearance in this book between JOH 4 and Q 15 (but, since I don't have Q15, maybe someone else should verify my placement.)

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Jack of Hearts
Posted by Andy Holcombe on April 05, 2003 at 17:45:29:
In Reply to: ndotherm and Jack of Hearts appearances
posted by garbonzo on April 05, 2003 at 15:06:10:

> The second is Jack of Hearts.  He makes an appearance in SS3 78.

I think the Quasar appearances predate the Silver Surfer appearances.  Unfortunately, I can't double check right now.

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Re: Jack of Hearts
Posted by Peter Fabricius on April 06, 2003 at 00:29:03:
In Reply to: Jack of Hearts
posted by Andy Holcombe on April 05, 2003 at 17:45:29:

> > The second is Jack of Hearts.  He makes an appearance in SS3 78.

> I think the Quasar appearances predate the Silver Surfer appearances.  Unfortunately, I can't double check right now.

There is a note in SS3 76 where it is stated that this occurs after Quasar 19

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Sunturion II/ Mike Stone
Posted by captamr on April 05, 2003 at 21:42:45:

Kinda surprised that he even has an appearance but since he does, we might want to include the FB of his origin:

DD 224 - FB
DD 224

Charlie

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M2 Universe
Posted by Jimmy Flowers on April 06, 2003 at 20:41:22:

While continuing my work on the Ultimate Universe, I've begun a chronology for the M2 Universe.  So far, I've indexed all of A-Next, most of J2, all of Fantastic Five, and up to issue 8 of Spider-Girl.  As I get more indexed, I will begin sharing with my data with all of you.

If anyone has any "notes" or continuity "advice" concerning the M2 universe, I'd love to hear it.

Thanks!

			*	*	*

MC2 and divergences
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on April 11, 2003 at 11:46:38:
In Reply to: M2 Universe
posted by Jimmy Flowers on April 06, 2003 at 20:41:22:

Jimmy Flowers spake:

> If anyone has any "notes" or continuity "advice" concerning the M2 universe, I'd love to hear it.

Not so much advice, but a long-standing question-mark I've had re: MC2.

The implication (AFAIK) has been that Spider-Girl was the focal point of the timeline, in that the MC2verse diverged from the Mainstream around the time of her birth.

I've read the entire MC2 line to date, with the exception of A-Next and Wild Thing (and SPIDER-GIRL 1/2), and it seems to me that the divergence occurred earlier.  The X-People are children of various X-Men (IIRC), and they are older than May.  This pushes back our fork-in-the-road further.

To sum, I'm wondering if it is possible to narrow down an earlier divergence point, with the intent of eventually noting this in Mainstream chronologies.

Ex:

SPIDER-MAN/PETER PARKER
BOOK 456
BOOK 457
(MC2 divergence) - [link to MC2 chrono from here]
BOOK 458
BOOK 459

--MC2 PAGE--
SPIDER-MAN/PETER PARKER
(continued from Mainstream SPIDER-MAN) - link
MC2 BOOK 1
MC2 BOOK 2
MC2 BOOK 3

Of course, I'd carry this concept to other timelines covered by the MCP.  Notably the KR Mythos.  (It'd be much easier here - M/TIO 69 is the cutoff point.)

- StAkAr Karnak

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Re: MC2 and divergences
Posted by Jimmy Flowers on April 14, 2003 at 18:42:50:
In Reply to: MC2 and divergences
posted by StAkAr Karnak on April 11, 2003 at 11:46:38:

I think that would be a great idea. I'll pull together the info I have in terms of what happened when, when I've completed my chrono work.  I'm up to Spider-Girl 27 now.  I've read all of A-Next, Fantastic 5, Wild Thing, and most of J2. 

I don't have access to J2 issues 2,3 & 10-12, so if anyone has scans they'd like to e-mail me, I'd really appreciate it.

Take care all.

Jimmy

			*	*	*

Jarvis & Fantastic Four
Posted by RLG on April 07, 2003 at 08:30:07:

 First, I want to thank you for this site.  Over the past couple of years, it has become an invaluable resource for me.  Second, I realize the questions I have are not the most topical (as opposed to stuff that was published this century), and hope it's not viewed as covering old ground.  With that said...     
The other day, I spotted Jarvis in Captain Marvel #40 (Sept.`75; page 10, panel 1-5) and was unsure of where this appearance fits in his chronology.  In the issue, Captain Marvel and Rick Jones (newly separated) return to Earth after the Trial of the Watcher. Captain Marvel arrives at the mansion looking for the Avengers. As he waits for the team to return, Jarvis serves him a cup of hot chocolate. Feeling lonely without Rick, Captain Marvel soon departs from the mansion.  I know it's not much to go on, but I was wondering if you could help place his appearance?

Also, looking though the F.F. chronologies, there are a couple of appearances I had questions about:

1)Invisible Girl in Marvel Team-Up #99.
   The Spider-Man/Machine Man team-up (unless she is invisible) doesn't have Sue in it.

2)Human Torch in Marvel Fanfare #20 - 21.
   This is the two-parter with the Thing (recently back from Beyonder's World) and the Hulk (temporarily taken out of his exile dimension by Doc Strange.) I searched though both issues and could not find the Torch. (He was probably too busy getting Skrull-lovin' from Lyja and was most likely avoiding Ben at the time!)

  Thank you once again for this web site and your help.  

			*	*	*

Daredevil Vs. Vapora #1
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 09, 2003 at 07:06:32:

I just purchased a copy of Daredevil vs. Vapora #1.  This is a comic that was published by Marvel in 1993 and sponsored by the Water Heater Division of the Gas Appliance Manufacturers Association.  The story takes place over the course of a couple of weeks.  Daredevil rescues people from fires caused by gasoline vapors and defends a client charged with arson.  The comic was meant to point out the dangers of handling gasoline.

This comic is not in the MCP, but I believe it's canon and should be included.  Placement would be around the time of DD comics published in 1993 (circa DD 310-320), allowing for temporal references such as green trees and light clothing.

Does anyone else have this comic and ideas about MCP placement?

Paul

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Re: Daredevil Vs. Vapora #1
Posted by SKleefeld on April 10, 2003 at 15:11:30:
In Reply to: Daredevil Vs. Vapora #1
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 09, 2003 at 07:06:32:

Got it, but I've never really looked at it for chronological purposes. I'll try to pull it out sometime soon...

along with all the other books I told you I'm hoping to look at.

[ How easy would be to fill up a 40 hour work week with this stuff? If Tom Brevoort's reading, is there any chance of that old Archivist position opening back up?  :) ]

-- Sean

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Re: Daredevil Vs. Vapora #1
Posted by Jhaeman on April 10, 2003 at 15:32:14:
In Reply to: Re: Daredevil Vs. Vapora #1
posted by SKleefeld on April 10, 2003 at 15:11:30:

I don't know if others have seen this since it's a Canadian-specific promotion comic called "Spider-Man: Chaos in Calgary"  It could conceivably be canon as there's nothing terribly silly in it.  Does anyone else have this?

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Chaos in Calgary
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 10, 2003 at 21:10:29:
In Reply to: Re: Daredevil Vs. Vapora #1
posted by Jhaeman on April 10, 2003 at 15:32:14:

> I don't know if others have seen this since it's a Canadian-specific promotion comic called "Spider-Man: Chaos in Calgary"  It could conceivably be canon as there's nothing terribly silly in it.  Does anyone else have this?

I do. It's the fourth and final part of a series.  Here are my notes, with character appearances: 

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN: SKATING ON THIN ICE #1
(one day, the next day, and the day after that; ends on the weekend)
Spider-Man, Electro II, J. Jonah Jameson, Chameleon

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN: DOUBLE TROUBLE #2
(day after ASMSOTI 1 end and next day; weekend)
Spider-Man, Chameleon

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN: HIT AND RUN #3
(day after ASMDT 2 end)
Spider-Man, Ghost Rider II

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN: CHAOS IN CALGARY #4
(day after ASMHAR 3)
Spider-Man, Texas Twister, Shooting Star, Phantom Rider III, Wizard, Dreadknight, Trapster, Man-Bull

I've considered these issues to be canon, but never bothered to see if they were in the MCP.

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Chaos in Calgary
Posted by Jeph! on April 11, 2003 at 00:12:39:
In Reply to: Chaos in Calgary
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 10, 2003 at 21:10:29:

> I do. It's the fourth and final part of a series.

Actually, the Unofficial Handbook of Marvel Comics Creators lists it as a FIVE-issue series.  Issue #5 was titled "Deadball", but they don't have any more info on it, because only issues #1-4 were distributed/reprinted in America.

I can't seem to direct-link to it, but go to the "Spider-Man" subsection and page down to "Amazing Spider-Man Children Special (Canadian)."

Never read any of 'em, though, so I can't comment on canonicity.  Sorry.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Marvel Super Hero Island comic
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 09, 2003 at 07:08:58:

Last week I was at Universal Islands of Adventure and saw a comic called "Marvel Super Hero Island" for sale in a number of stores there.  I didn't buy it, but I'm sure it's a promotional piece for the theme park.  Does anyone have this comic?  Should it be considered non-canon?

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Super Hero Island comic
Posted by SKleefeld on April 10, 2003 at 15:08:04:
In Reply to: Marvel Super Hero Island comic
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 09, 2003 at 07:08:58:

I don't have this but I've gotten the distinct impression from people I've talked to that it's not supposed to be canon.

-- Sean

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Gus Beezer
Posted by Jeph! on April 10, 2003 at 02:59:11:

Just paged through last week's "Marvelous Adventures of Gus Beezer, starring the X-Men" one-shot, and it's my opinion that the book (and series as a whole) is NOT canon.

Regardless of the art style, the X-Men featured don't quite match up to the Marvel Universe versions: Prof. X is seated but in his Morrison-era outfit (meaning, between X #113-114 or #126-127), and Wolverine is in his upcoming "Ultimate-ized" outfit (post-#138) -- these two don't and can't overlap.  Most importantly, Jean Grey has short hair -- which has NEVER happened in the Marvel Universe.

The X-Men pictured here bear more resemblance to the Ultimate versions, but the "Gus Beezer" series can't be set in the Ultimate Universe either -- mainly because the Hulk, seen in one of the other one-shots, is green.  Ultimate Hulk is gray.

So, I think the Gus Beezer series should be officially labelled non-canon.  Anyone else have an opinion?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Gus Beezer
Posted by David Smith on April 10, 2003 at 10:07:03:
In Reply to: Gus Beezer
posted by Jeph! on April 10, 2003 at 02:59:11:

For what it's worth, I agree 100%

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Re: Gus Beezer
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 10, 2003 at 21:13:10:
In Reply to: Re: Gus Beezer
posted by David Smith on April 10, 2003 at 10:07:03:

Ditto.  Let's dub this the Beezerverse.

			*	*	*

Re: Gus Beezer
Posted by Paul O'Brien on April 11, 2003 at 07:40:31:
In Reply to: Gus Beezer
posted by Jeph! on April 10, 2003 at 02:59:11:

> So, I think the Gus Beezer series should be officially labelled non-canon.  Anyone else have an opinion?

Interviews with Gail Simone say, unequivocally, that it's canon: http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=1822

I agree that there are costume problems and the X-Men seem to have been drawn from Ultimate X-Men references, but ultimately these are artist error.  There's nothing in story terms which disqualifies the story from taking place, as far as I can see.

			*	*	*

Re: Gus Beezer
Posted by Jeph! on April 11, 2003 at 13:07:31:
In Reply to: Re: Gus Beezer
posted by Paul O'Brien on April 11, 2003 at 07:40:31:

> > So, I think the Gus Beezer series should be officially labelled non-canon.  Anyone else have an opinion?

> Interviews with Gail Simone say, unequivocally, that it's canon: http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=1822

And?  So?  The creative team of "Icons: Rogue" would likely state the same thing.  The fact that there was a stated ATTEMPT at setting it in the MU doesn't necessarily mean we should accept the finished product.

> I agree that there are costume problems and the X-Men seem to have been drawn from Ultimate X-Men references, but ultimately these are artist error.  There's nothing in story terms which disqualifies the story from taking place, as far as I can see.

Well, I haven't read them all too closely, but it seems to me that Gus knows all about the X-Men from reading comic books.  I didn't think the MU version of the X-Men had their own comic book -- aside from artist jokes (X-Men comics in background at store, etc), they've always been portrayed as feared, mysterious antiheroes that nobody has much detail on.  Meanwhile Gus knows all the characters and all their powers from reading their comics?

Correct me if I'm wrong -- and next time I'm in a store I'll take a closer look -- but this strikes me as something of a large-ish "story problem".

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Gus Beezer
Posted by SKleefeld on April 11, 2003 at 13:59:30:
In Reply to: Re: Gus Beezer
posted by Jeph! on April 11, 2003 at 13:07:31:

> Well, I haven't read them all too closely, but it seems to me that Gus knows all about the X-Men from reading comic books.  I didn't think the MU version of the X-Men had their own comic book -- aside from artist jokes (X-Men comics in background at store, etc), they've always been portrayed as feared, mysterious antiheroes that nobody has much detail on.  Meanwhile Gus knows all the characters and all their powers from reading their comics?

> Correct me if I'm wrong -- and next time I'm in a store I'll take a closer look -- but this strikes me as something of a large-ish "story problem".

Well, I haven't read the Beezer books (no intention to, either) but how much of the X-Men does Gus describe "accurately"? Remember, we did see a few years ago the Marvels Comics X-Men, which showed us what an X-Men comic looks like IN the Marvel Universe. There were some dis-connects, of course, but the basics were all there.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Gus Beezer
Posted by ShadZ on April 11, 2003 at 19:30:13:
In Reply to: Re: Gus Beezer
posted by Jeph! on April 11, 2003 at 13:07:31:

> > Interviews with Gail Simone say, unequivocally, that it's canon: http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=1822

> And?  So?  The creative team of "Icons: Rogue" would likely state the same thing.  The fact that there was a stated ATTEMPT at setting it in the MU doesn't necessarily mean we should accept the finished product.

Actually, the writer of "Icons: Rogue" has said that she was told by her editors to not worry about continunity.  The point of this story was to write about a Rouge who was like the one in the X-Men movie, and that doesn't fit anywhere in the comic-book Rouge's life, so they just punted.

One wonders why they didn't set it in the movie's universe...

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Re: Gus Beezer
Posted by Jeph! on April 12, 2003 at 00:03:12:
In Reply to: Re: Gus Beezer
posted by ShadZ on April 11, 2003 at 19:30:13:

> > > Interviews with Gail Simone say, unequivocally, that it's canon: http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=1822

> > And?  So?  The creative team of "Icons: Rogue" would likely state the same thing.

> Actually, the writer of "Icons: Rogue" has said that she was told by her editors to not worry about continunity.

Well, in fairness, EVERYONE at Marvel is being told that these days, but here we are at the MCP trying to chunk it all together regardless...

The point I was trying to make, however, is this:

The fact that there was a stated ATTEMPT at setting the Gus Beezer series in the Marvel Universe doesn't necessarily mean that WE should accept the finished product as canon.

The X-Men just don't match up -- and labelling it "artistic error" belies the fact that those are clearly supposed to be the ULTIMATE X-Men.

In that same interview linked above, Gail states that the "archetypical versions" of each character are being used, for maximum shelf-life of the book.  This doesn't sound to me like she was aiming for canonicity as much as aiming for something that RESEMBLES the Marvel Universe to the untrained eye of the consumer -- and will resemble the ARCHETYPICAL Marvel Universe for quite some time, no matter what the actual Marvel Universe currently looks like.

Apparently, the bigwigs at Marvel feel that the "archetypical versions" of the X-Men are the Ultimate X-Men, so that's who showed up in the comic.  I still say that the series, while having the FEEL of being set in the Marvel Universe, is not actually set there.  It's set in some "archetypical" Marvelish universe where the Hulk is always green and dumb, Prof. X is always handicapped, and Jean Grey always has short hair.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Gus Beezer
Posted by Paul O;Brien on April 13, 2003 at 05:12:44:
In Reply to: Re: Gus Beezer
posted by Jeph! on April 11, 2003 at 13:07:31:

>Meanwhile Gus knows all the characters and all their powers from reading their comics?

Remember, this is the X-Men of 2003.  The school is public knowledge, the X-Men have offices around the world, and they have press conferences on a regular basis.  The idea that they've licensed a comic would not be surprising in the least.

			*	*	*

Re: Gus Beezer
Posted by Jeph! on April 13, 2003 at 07:56:21:
In Reply to: Re: Gus Beezer
posted by Paul O;Brien on April 13, 2003 at 05:12:44:

> >Meanwhile Gus knows all the characters and all their powers from reading their comics?

> Remember, this is the X-Men of 2003.  The school is public knowledge, the X-Men have offices around the world, and they have press conferences on a regular basis.  The idea that they've licensed a comic would not be surprising in the least.

Except, if Prof. X is still SEATED in his wheelchair, this would be BEFORE the school was made public knowledge...

I suppose it could fit into the same timetable as "the Order" #5-6, where we posited that Prof. X was wheelchair-bound because, although his spine had been recently healed in X #126, his legs weren't strong enough yet to support him.

I still say "Gus Beezer" isn't canon -- then again, I've only read one issue.  Is there overwhelming evidence to the contrary in the other two one-shots?

-Jeph!
and yes, in this situation I'm going to need to be convinced that it IS canon, instead of my usual policy of assuming that a book is canon until it's proven not...

			*	*	*

Captain America v4 #12 -- huh?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 11, 2003 at 07:25:13:

Is it my imagination or does the flashback in the current issue of Captain America totally contradict the Namor-and-the-Eskimos scene from Avengers #4?  Namor reviving Cap from the block of ice and telling him about Bucky's death while a few scientists work at some obtusely nefarious project in the Arctic involving some weird hand?  The whole story is yet to be told, but this better not be some kind of retcon.

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Captain America v4 #12 -- huh?
Posted by Paul O'Brien on April 11, 2003 at 07:36:28:
In Reply to: Captain America v4 #12 -- huh?
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 11, 2003 at 07:25:13:

> Is it my imagination or does the flashback in the current issue of Captain America totally contradict the Namor-and-the-Eskimos scene from Avengers #4?  

Yes, it does.  At this stage I think the idea is that we're not certain whether this story is true or not.  The story is so ineptly written that it's hard to say for sure, however.  I have difficulties with any story which is positively inviting the audience to ask, "Is this a retcon?"  I suspect the answer is "No, it isn't", because the defrosted Steve is acting in the same way as the dumb clones from the previous issues.

To be honest, I can't say I'd miss the Namor-and-the-Eskimos scene if it were to be retconned out.  It's astonishingly silly and has unpleasant "Look at the dumb little foreigners" overtones, as I recall.

I'm a little more sceptical about the wider implications of the retcon they're hinting at - ie, that Captain America was actually put into suspended animation by the US government in order to avoid him objecting to Hiroshima.  I've never bought the idea of Captain America, Uberpacifist, who nonetheless signs up for the army voluntarily and begs to be allowed in.  What was he planning to do, wave daffodils at the Nazis?

			*	*	*

Re: Captain America v4 #12 -- huh?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 11, 2003 at 22:01:37:
In Reply to: Re: Captain America v4 #12 -- huh?
posted by Paul O'Brien on April 11, 2003 at 07:36:28:

> > Is it my imagination or does the flashback in the current issue of Captain America totally contradict the Namor-and-the-Eskimos scene from Avengers #4?  

> Yes, it does.  At this stage I think the idea is that we're not certain whether this story is true or not.  The story is so ineptly written that it's hard to say for sure, however.  

Agreed.  I read that darn comic twice and scanned it several more times and I can't figure out what the heck is going on.  No one but "Severs" is named (aside from Cap and Namor) and I guess he's the father of the woman I presume is Hana from the previous few issues.  It's one thing to give the reader clues and hold back on details for the sake of suspense, but this is just crappy writing.

>I have difficulties with any story which is positively inviting the audience to ask, "Is this a retcon?"  I suspect the answer is "No, it isn't", because the defrosted Steve is acting in the same way as the dumb clones from the previous issues.

Yes, this may have something to do with the clones of Cap and Bucky, which is itself a lame excuse for a storyline.  

> To be honest, I can't say I'd miss the Namor-and-the-Eskimos scene it it were to be retconned out.  It's astonishingly silly and has unpleasant "Look at the dumb little foreigners" overtones, as I recall.

But the continuity of Namor's freeing of Cap (even a clone)in CA4 12-FB and their "next" encounter as adversaries in A 4 still doesn't jibe.

> I'm a little more sceptical about the wider implications of the retcon they're hinting at - ie, that Captain America was actually put into suspended animation by the US government in order to avoid him objecting to Hiroshima.  I've never bought the idea of Captain America, Uberpacifist, who nonetheless signs up for the army voluntarily and begs to be allowed in.  What was he planning to do, wave daffodils at the Nazis?

My sentiments exactly.  Whatever did Cap do in World War II that would have led the military to suspect his opposition to the A-bomb?  He was a dutiful soldier, doing whatever was needed to stop the Axis menace.  Cap was more of a straightforward patriot in WWII and I don't think his moral code evolved into anything more ideological until after his revival in the '60s.  Perhaps published stories to date don't tell the whole story and Chuck Austen will seemlessly fit his new plot into existing continuity after all.  I hope my skepticism is unfounded.

Paul

			*	*	*

Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 11, 2003 at 07:25:54:

Well, I just read Human Torch #1 and couldnt help but notice the blatant inconsistencies with the chronology established by George Olshevsky and the continuity of early FF issues.

Heres what we have in Human Torch #1:
It is established here that Johnny Storm becomes the Human Torch (in FF 1) sometime during the summer between his sophomore and junior years of at Glenville High School.  At the end of his sophomore year (before FF 1), he is old enough to drive a car alone (16).  At the beginning of his junior year, he reports to his class about how he spent his summer vacation becoming the Torch and notes that he had just fought Skrulls (FF 2).  That day he is seen wearing the costume he received in FF 3.  His identity as the Torch is not public knowledge until this point.

Heres what Olshevsky has established in Official Marvel Index to the Fantastic Four #1:

During the summer between Johnnys sophomore and junior years of high school, FF 9 occurs.  Of course by this time, the FFs identities are publicly known; the FF become known to the world at large between FF 1 and FF 2.  Johnny doesnt live in Glenville until after FF 2.  Before FF 1 he presumably lived in Central City.

So what gives here?  Is the new Human Torch series canon?  If so, how do we make sense of the big continuity glitches here?

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
Posted by Paul O'Brien on April 11, 2003 at 07:50:22:
In Reply to: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 11, 2003 at 07:25:54:

> Well, I just read Human Torch #1 and couldnt help but notice the blatant inconsistencies with the chronology established by George Olshevsky and the continuity of early FF issues.

Early FF continuity is a bit of a mess, as I recall, partly due to a bizarre Human Torch solo series in which he was presented as having a secret identity and living with Sue - totally inconsistent with anything in Fantastic Four at the same time.

I'm sure it's intended to be canon.  If it wasn't, there'd be no need for the opening narration establishing it as "several years ago".  Besides which, if Marvel launch a series starring a well known character, I'd say there's a very strong presumption in favour of canonicity - if it doesn't quite fit, this should be read as error or retcon, and not as evidence that the book is out of continuity.

The fact that one of the students has a newspaper cover showing the battle from Fantastic Four #1, and the reference to events in Fantastic Four #2, pretty much confirm that this is canon.

I'd just take it as artistic licence and insert the first issue as taking place between FF #3-4 (the earliest possible gap, since newspapers are still floating around with photographs of FF #1 on the front cover).

At the end of the day, it's Marvel's universe, and if they want to adopt a more fluid and relaxed approach to continuity, then that's just the way it is.  It undermines the point of the MCP to start dismissing stories for failure to adhere to a standard of continuity that Marvel no longer aims to achieve (and, for that matter, which Marvel weren't aiming for in the early sixties either).

If we start getting flashbacks to Johnny in previous years in the same school then we have a bit of a difficulty.  Possibly it can be accounted for by saying that he was always in Glenville and briefly moved to Central City in the early days of the FF?

			*	*	*

Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
Posted by SKleefeld on April 11, 2003 at 10:28:45:
In Reply to: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 11, 2003 at 07:25:54:

> Well, I just read Human Torch #1 and couldnt help but notice the blatant inconsistencies with the chronology established by George Olshevsky and the continuity of early FF issues.

> Heres what we have in Human Torch #1:
> It is established here that Johnny Storm becomes the Human Torch (in FF 1) sometime during the summer between his sophomore and junior years of at Glenville High School.  At the end of his sophomore year (before FF 1), he is old enough to drive a car alone (16).  At the beginning of his junior year, he reports to his class about how he spent his summer vacation becoming the Torch and notes that he had just fought Skrulls (FF 2).  That day he is seen wearing the costume he received in FF 3.  His identity as the Torch is not public knowledge until this point.

> Heres what Olshevsky has established in Official Marvel Index to the Fantastic Four #1:

> During the summer between Johnnys sophomore and junior years of high school, FF 9 occurs.  Of course by this time, the FFs identities are publicly known; the FF become known to the world at large between FF 1 and FF 2.  Johnny doesnt live in Glenville until after FF 2.  Before FF 1 he presumably lived in Central City.

> So what gives here?  Is the new Human Torch series canon?  If so, how do we make sense of the big continuity glitches here?

Re-read Torch's comment about the Skrulls. He IMPLIES that he fought them recently, but he doesn't say that it was last night. We can still posit FF #2 in the summer before Johnny's junior year with no problems against Human Torch #1.

			*	*	*

Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 12, 2003 at 17:11:16:
In Reply to: Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
posted by SKleefeld on April 11, 2003 at 10:28:45:

> Re-read Torch's comment about the Skrulls. He IMPLIES that he fought them recently, but he doesn't say that it was last night. We can still posit FF #2 in the summer before Johnny's junior year with no problems against Human Torch #1.

Johnny's statement about the Skrulls actually isn't as critical as his statement about the Avengers, a group that didn't even exist a few months after FF 1:

On "October 31" of Johnny's junior year in high school (page 17, panel 2 of Human Torch #1), presumably the semester following the summer he received his power, Johnny says that hes going to a costume party at Avengers Mansion.  Avengers Mansion did not exist until Avengers #1.5.  On page 3, panel 1 of Avengers #1.5, a news report states: At a late afternoon press conference, Iron Man confirmed reports that billionaire Anthony Stark has made his midtown mansion available to the Avengers for their meetings.  The Fantastic Four are watching this news report, and the Thing states, just a coupla months ago, the military brass wanted us to clobber the Hulk! (Editors note: in FF #12).  So, October 31 of Johnnys junior year occurs after Avengers #1.5, which happens a couple of months after FF 12.  This means that when Johnny returned to school as a junior (page 8 of Human Torch #1), FF 12 had already happened.  So why is Johnnys identity still unknown after FF 12?  Big continuity error there.

Furthermore, that same news report announcing the use of Starks mansion by the Avengers notes that its been barely a year since the formation of the renowned Fantastic Four (page 2, panel 2 of Avengers #1.5).  By the time October 31 of Johnnys junior year happens, it must be a year or more after FF 1.  The start of Johnnys junior year cant occur one or two months after FF 1.

We also have to consider Marvels own established chronology, as laid out in the Marvel Saga series published in the mid 1980s.  Quite a lot of time passes, and a lot of things happen, between FF 1 and A 1.  Check out the Continuity Corner in each issue of that series.

Did Karl Kessel pay any attention to any of this when writing Human Torch #1?  Doubtful.  Im sure he intends his Human Torch series to be canon, but...sorry, bud...to be canon, you have to pay attention to continuity.  Otherwise youre dealing with a story as inspired by the Marvel Universe.

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
Posted by SKleefeld on April 12, 2003 at 21:03:53:
In Reply to: Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 12, 2003 at 17:11:16:

> > Re-read Torch's comment about the Skrulls. He IMPLIES that he fought them recently, but he doesn't say that it was last night. We can still posit FF #2 in the summer before Johnny's junior year with no problems against Human Torch #1.

> Johnny's statement about the Skrulls actually isn't as critical as his statement about the Avengers, a group that didn't even exist a few months after FF 1:

> On "October 31" of Johnny's junior year in high school (page 17, panel 2 of Human Torch #1), presumably the semester following the summer he received his power, Johnny says that hes going to a costume party at Avengers Mansion.  Avengers Mansion did not exist until Avengers #1.5.  On page 3, panel 1 of Avengers #1.5, a news report states: At a late afternoon press conference, Iron Man confirmed reports that billionaire Anthony Stark has made his midtown mansion available to the Avengers for their meetings.  The Fantastic Four are watching this news report, and the Thing states, just a coupla months ago, the military brass wanted us to clobber the Hulk! (Editors note: in FF #12).  So, October 31 of Johnnys junior year occurs after Avengers #1.5, which happens a couple of months after FF 12.  This means that when Johnny returned to school as a junior (page 8 of Human Torch #1), FF 12 had already happened.  So why is Johnnys identity still unknown after FF 12?  Big continuity error there.

Not really. In Human Torch #1, several of Johnny's classmates don't believe he is the Torch. Is it so unlikely that a superhero that shows up in California and then New York City, and has a movie made about him is supposed to be the same kid you've grown up with in Glenville for the past 15 years? Indeed, even after gaining some notoriety in FF #1-3, there are multiple instances in #4 where average citizens disbelieve in the FF's very existence!

I know I'd be skeptical if some kid told me he'd gone up in a rocket, gotten super powers, and fought against world-conquering despots and aliens on his summer break. I don't see any problems here. 

> Furthermore, that same news report announcing the use of Starks mansion by the Avengers notes that its been barely a year since the formation of the renowned Fantastic Four (page 2, panel 2 of Avengers #1.5).  By the time October 31 of Johnnys junior year happens, it must be a year or more after FF 1.  The start of Johnnys junior year cant occur one or two months after FF 1.

Let's assume the Pocket Rocket flight was on the very first day of Johnny's summer break. That gives us an absolute maximum of six months before October 31. Certainly not "barely a year" by any account. Now even though I admit the calendar placement system can be useful, I think this is one of those instances where we have to take things with a grain of salt. There are SO many instances over the past 40+ years that have to be tweaked an adjusted for this type of dialogue, I don't think it's worth throwing this whole series out the window because one approximation was a couple of months off.

> We also have to consider Marvels own established chronology, as laid out in the Marvel Saga series published in the mid 1980s.  Quite a lot of time passes, and a lot of things happen, between FF 1 and A 1.  Check out the Continuity Corner in each issue of that series.<p>But, in the course of a summer break, a lot CAN happen. Johnny's got nothing but time on his hands for three whole months.

> Did Karl Kessel pay any attention to any of this when writing Human Torch #1?  Doubtful.  Im sure he intends his Human Torch series to be canon, but...sorry, bud...to be canon, you have to pay attention to continuity.  Otherwise youre dealing with a story as inspired by the Marvel Universe.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Did Kesel pay attention to every minutia of chronology when doing this? No. But, that's not the point of continuity. Continuity provides a link for us to past stories, but we shouldn't be slaves to it. Indeed, we CANNOT be slaves to it simply because Stan himself screwed up when he was writing these stories all those years ago. If we held canonicity up to the level you're talking about, we'd have to throw out 75% of what's been written over the years! Every reference to Richards and Grimm in WWII. Stark in Korea. Flash Thompson in Vietnam. We can't take that calendar system verbaitum because it simply doesn't work over the long term.

We're talking about reconciling two stories written FOUR DECADES apart! One of the guys who worked on the original died almost twenty years ago! And the other one couldn't remember what he wrote two pages earlier even on the best of days!

So, you know, if Kesel missed an absolutely strict timetable by only a couple of months, I'm frickin' impressed.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 12, 2003 at 23:08:17:
In Reply to: Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
posted by SKleefeld on April 12, 2003 at 21:03:53:

> > On "October 31" of Johnny's junior year in high school (page 17, panel 2 of Human Torch #1), presumably the semester following the summer he received his power, Johnny says that hes going to a costume party at Avengers Mansion.  Avengers Mansion did not exist until Avengers #1.5.  On page 3, panel 1 of Avengers #1.5, a news report states: At a late afternoon press conference, Iron Man confirmed reports that billionaire Anthony Stark has made his midtown mansion available to the Avengers for their meetings.  The Fantastic Four are watching this news report, and the Thing states, just a coupla months ago, the military brass wanted us to clobber the Hulk! (Editors note: in FF #12).  So, October 31 of Johnnys junior year occurs after Avengers #1.5, which happens a couple of months after FF 12.  This means that when Johnny returned to school as a junior (page 8 of Human Torch #1), FF 12 had already happened.  So why is Johnnys identity still unknown after FF 12?  Big continuity error there.

> Not really. In Human Torch #1, several of Johnny's classmates don't believe he is the Torch. Is it so unlikely that a superhero that shows up in California and then New York City, and has a movie made about him is supposed to be the same kid you've grown up with in Glenville for the past 15 years? Indeed, even after gaining some notoriety in FF #1-3, there are multiple instances in #4 where average citizens disbelieve in the FF's very existence!

Again, we're talking about disbelieving Johnny sometime after FF 12, not around FF 3 or 4.  Is that really likely?  Maybe it is, but I need your expertise on the FF to confirm it.

> I know I'd be skeptical if some kid told me he'd gone up in a rocket, gotten super powers, and fought against world-conquering despots and aliens on his summer break. I don't see any problems here. 

> > Furthermore, that same news report announcing the use of Starks mansion by the Avengers notes that its been barely a year since the formation of the renowned Fantastic Four (page 2, panel 2 of Avengers #1.5).  By the time October 31 of Johnnys junior year happens, it must be a year or more after FF 1.  The start of Johnnys junior year cant occur one or two months after FF 1.

> Let's assume the Pocket Rocket flight was on the very first day of Johnny's summer break. That gives us an absolute maximum of six months before October 31. Certainly not "barely a year" by any account. 

Six months?  Schools don't let out for summer at the end of April.  At least not in any school system I know of.  We're really talking early June at the earliest, likely 4.5 months.

> Now even though I admit the calendar placement system can be useful, I think this is one of those instances where we have to take things with a grain of salt. There are SO many instances over the past 40+ years that have to be tweaked an adjusted for this type of dialogue, I don't think it's worth throwing this whole series out the window because one approximation was a couple of months off.

It's not just one approximation.  The "barely a year" between FF 1 and A 1.5 squares with many other references, including the "coupla months" that separate FF 12 and A 1.5.

> > We also have to consider Marvels own established chronology, as laid out in the Marvel Saga series published in the mid 1980s.  Quite a lot of time passes, and a lot of things happen, between FF 1 and A 1.  Check out the Continuity Corner in each issue of that series.

> But, in the course of a summer break, a lot CAN happen. Johnny's got nothing but time on his hands for three whole months.

Really, do check out Marvel Saga's continuity corner features.  We're not just talking about Johnny here.  Despite my skepticism, I will see about the possibility of fitting all MCP entries from FF 1 through A 1.5 in the tight time frame between June and October.

However, given BOTH the anonymity of the Human Torch at the beginning of his junior year (circa FF 3-4, you say, although perhaps later...) AND the reference to Avengers Mansion at the end of October, we'd have to cram everything in the MU between FF 4 (or ST 105, see below) and A 1.5 into a time period of two months.  Read Marvel Saga and the Marvel Indexes and you'll see the difficulty of accomplishing that.

> > Did Karl Kessel pay any attention to any of this when writing Human Torch #1?  Doubtful.  Im sure he intends his Human Torch series to be canon, but...sorry, bud...to be canon, you have to pay attention to continuity.  Otherwise youre dealing with a story as inspired by the Marvel Universe.

> Whoa, whoa, whoa! Did Kesel pay attention to every minutia of chronology when doing this? No. But, that's not the point of continuity. Continuity provides a link for us to past stories, but we shouldn't be slaves to it. Indeed, we CANNOT be slaves to it simply because Stan himself screwed up when he was writing these stories all those years ago. 

Now, Olshevsky did deal with the discrepancy of Johnny's acting as if his ID were secret in Strange Tales #101-105: "The secrecy with which the Fantastic Four surround themselves, following the acquisition of their powers and before their first mission, becomes a habit difficult for Johnny Storm to break.  When the Fantastic Four move to New York City and Johnny and his sister set up housekeeping in Glenville (following FF2), Johnny behaves as if his Human Torch identity is secret in his adventures in Strange Tales #101-105."  Not completely satisfying, but this may help support placement of Johnny's "summer report" in Human Torch #1 AFTER ST 105, which in turn occurs after FF 10.  Question: do stories in ST 101-105 show Johnny in school, or might they occur in the summer, or perhaps early in the school year, before Johnny would do a summer vacation report?

> If we held canonicity up to the level you're talking about, we'd have to throw out 75% of what's been written over the years! Every reference to Richards and Grimm in WWII. Stark in Korea. Flash Thompson in Vietnam. We can't take that calendar system verbaitum because it simply doesn't work over the long term.

I have my own special gripes about the examples you mention.  But Human Torch #1 fits squarely within the post-FF #1 Marvel Universe and there's just no need to muck with known chronology here to tell the story.  I think it's our role to be more slavish to chronological continuity than some Marvel writers apparently are.  You know that I don't consider every temporal reference correct, but I resent that such references aren't researched before they're written into stories, when it's easy to do so.  Call me a curmudgeon ;(

> We're talking about reconciling two stories written FOUR DECADES apart! One of the guys who worked on the original died almost twenty years ago! And the other one couldn't remember what he wrote two pages earlier even on the best of days!

> So, you know, if Kesel missed an absolutely strict timetable by only a couple of months, I'm frickin' impressed.

My point is, for the sake of Kesel's storytelling, there's no reason not to nail the continuity and chronological references.  He could have told this story within the timeframe and chronology established by Marvel itself without a tremendous amount of homework.  He's not off a couple of months, he's off a year, according to existing references.  This sloppiness will mean our stepping in and choosing what and how many references to disregard.  Until now, things worked fine.

I'm not criticizing the storytelling itself (as I am with the current Cap story), and I wouldn't post this critique in an ordinary comics fan forum site, but this is the Marvel CHRONOLOGY Project, after all.

Now, all that having been said, we do have some options here...

1) Pretend that Avengers Mansion reference doesn't exist because the Avengers aren't around yet.  Say FF 1 occurs in the summer between Johnny's sophomore and junior years.  Say that Johnny is still in his junior year A YEAR LATER, when Peter Parker is in his junior year.  Could Johnny have had to repeat his junior year?  Hey, the guy was an underachiever before the FF, and with his FF adventures, he had a rough go of it academically.  Question is: are there references in FF that would contradict this scenario?

2) Take the Johnny-repeats-junior-year theory and don't ignore the Avengers Mansion reference.  The October 31 that Johnny mentioned Avengers Mansion is actually 13 months, not one month, after his announcement to the class that he's the Human Torch.

3) Ignore both the Avengers Mansion reference and the principal's junior year reference and say that FF 1 occurred between Johnny's freshman and sophomore years.  But then you'd have Johnny driving a car as a freshman in front of a teacher without getting busted for underage driving.  Maybe Johnny repeated a year when he was younger?

4) Ignore the later dates in Human Torch #1.  Allow as much time as it takes for events to unfold in the MU between Johnny's "summer vacation" report to the class in late August/early September and the setup of Avengers Mansion.  Try to reconcile Olshevsky's conclusions about Johnny's and Peter's high school chronology with any necessary adjustments.

Figuring out the chronology here (and what references we need to consider and which to ignore) will have an impact on where we place Human Torch #1 and subsequent issues in the MCP.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
Posted by Jeph! on April 12, 2003 at 23:25:35:
In Reply to: Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 12, 2003 at 23:08:17:

> Now, all that having been said, we do have some options here...

> 2) Take the Johnny-repeats-junior-year theory and don't ignore the Avengers Mansion reference.  The October 31 that Johnny mentioned Avengers Mansion is actually 13 months, not one month, after his announcement to the class that he's the Human Torch.

For what my opinion's worth, I vote for this one.  It seems simplest, and it's the same idea I formed separately while reading the thread.

> Figuring out the chronology here (and what references we need to consider and which to ignore) will have an impact on where we place Human Torch #1 and subsequent issues in the MCP.

If it helps any, I believe that it's only the first issue or first arc of "Human Torch" that's going to be set in the past.  I'm fairly sure the rest of the series will be set in the present...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
Posted by Paul O'Brien on April 13, 2003 at 05:20:18:
In Reply to: Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
posted by Jeph! on April 12, 2003 at 23:25:35:

> For what my opinion's worth, I vote for this one.  It seems simplest, and it's the same idea I formed separately while reading the thread.

Sounds sensible to me.  I really think we need to be wary about throwing stories out of continuity simply because of continuity errors no worse than a thousand that have come before them.  I can see that we have a logical problem with Johnny being in the wrong city for the first couple of issues of FF, but given that his solo series where he claimed to have a secret identity has still been shoehorned into continuity, I think the timetabling issues of this story pale into insignificance by comparison.

Olshevsky was always perfectly happy to disregard lines of dialogue or dismiss them as errors if it was necessary to square the stories into continuity.  That strikes me as an entirely correct position.

			*	*	*

Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
Posted by Jhaeman on April 13, 2003 at 00:03:23:
In Reply to: Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 12, 2003 at 23:08:17:

> 3) Ignore both the Avengers Mansion reference and the principal's junior year reference and say that FF 1 occurred between Johnny's freshman and sophomore years.  But then you'd have Johnny driving a car as a freshman in front of a teacher without getting busted for underage driving.  Maybe Johnny repeated a year when he was younger?

I have absolutely no expertise to get involved in the debate, but would it be worth mentioning the minor point that in several states, students as young as 14 could get special permits to drive by themselves, limited to the sole purpose of going to school and back?

Jhaeman
Comics That Time Forgot:  http://www.geocities.com/jhaeman

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Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 13, 2003 at 09:03:08:
In Reply to: Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
posted by Jhaeman on April 13, 2003 at 00:03:23:

> I have absolutely no expertise to get involved in the debate, but would it be worth mentioning the minor point that in several states, students as young as 14 could get special permits to drive by themselves, limited to the sole purpose of going to school and back?

Interesting point, although if he were younger than 16 and driving the way he was in Human Torch #1, his special permit would have been yanked ;)

If we take the principal's reference to Johnny starting junior year as stated, Johnny's driving age isn't a problem.  And this is acceptable if we separate Johnny's class report (in September of Johnny's first junior year) and the Avengers Mansion reference (in October of Johnny's second junior year) by 13 months.

The questions remain: 

1) Are there any references in early issues of FF or ST that would contradict Johnny's repeating junior year?  Any references to his grade in those titles?

2) Does the sequence of events in Human Torch #1 make sense if 13 months separate pages 15 and 16 of that issue?  Mike Snow and Johnny are in the same junior class in "September" (pages 8-15), but we don't see them in the same class in "October" and later (pages 15 on).  Could Mike have gone on to senior year and Johnny still be a junior from page 15 on?  Let's hope Human Torch #2 can support this theory...

--Paul

			*	*	*

ST 101 - ST 105 school references
Posted by Arthur Stein on April 13, 2003 at 08:40:41:
In Reply to: Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 12, 2003 at 23:08:17:

> Question: do stories in ST 101-105 show Johnny in school, or might they occur in the summer, or perhaps early in the school year, before Johnny would do a summer vacation report?

ST 101:

  Narrators note regarding the secrecy of Johnny identity: Four of Johnnys schoolmates DID know his secret identity, but they graduated high school last term! Now one of them is in the army, two are away in college and the fourth is working in Chicago. (pg 1)

ST 101 takes place during the school year. On their way to school the following day, Johnny. (pg 4)

ST 102 no reference

ST 103 school. First panel Johnny says  Gotta hurry! I have a History test the first period!   At end of story Johnny is shown in class daydreaming; For the next couple weeks he has a tough time concentrating 

ST 104 no reference

ST 105 no reference

			*	*	*

A NEW theory -- this might work
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 13, 2003 at 16:41:46:
In Reply to: ST 101 - ST 105 school references
posted by Arthur Stein on April 13, 2003 at 08:40:41:

> ST 101:

>   Narrators note regarding the secrecy of Johnny identity: Four of Johnnys schoolmates DID know his secret identity, but they graduated high school last term! Now one of them is in the army, two are away in college and the fourth is working in Chicago. (pg 1)

> ST 101 takes place during the school year. On their way to school the following day, Johnny. (pg 4)

> ST 102 no reference

> ST 103 school. First panel Johnny says  Gotta hurry! I have a History test the first period!   At end of story Johnny is shown in class daydreaming; For the next couple weeks he has a tough time concentrating 

> ST 104 no reference

> ST 105 no reference

Thanks, Arthur.  This helps.  Now I know that Johnny's grade was not firmly established, although it sounds like he had some older friends who graduated a few years before he did.

It might also be helpful to recall George Olshevsky's calendar placements and chronology as laid out in Official Marvel Index to the Fantastic Four #1:

>FF 7
ST 101 -- "This story occurs in the spring, because Johnny Storm is still in school, and he and his classmates are anxiously awaiting the opening of an amusement park near Glenville."

ST 102 -- "One or two weeks later...the Human Torch encounters the Wizard."
FF 8
ST 103 -- "Shortly after" FF 8.  "Because Johnny is still in school for several more weeks at that story's conclusion, it must occur before the story in" FF 9.
FF 9 -- "Because Johnny Storm has the time to hitchhike across the country to Hollywood with his teammates and then spend several weeks in various locations filming a motion picture, this story can only take place during one of his summer vacations....This particular summer vacation must be the one between Johnny's sophomore and junior years in high school."
ASM 1/2 ~ FF@ 1/2
ST 104 -- "sometime after" ASM 1/2
FF 10
ST 108-FB -- "Johnny Storm encounters counterfeiter Wilhelm Van Vile...shortly after" ST 105 -- "Soon after" ST 108-FB
FF 11/1 -- "By this time, everyone knows that Johnny Storm is the Human Torch..."
ST 106 -- "A few days after" FF 11
FF 11/2
ST 107 -- "Approximately a month after" FF 11/2
FF 12 -- This is the story the Thing notes as being "a coupla months" before A 1.5
ST 108 -- "shortly after" FF 12
FF 13 -- "The only time that Johnny Storm had time off from school for the Fantastic Four's trip to the moon...is during one of his vacations as a high-school junior, almost certainly his Christmas vacation."

I think our hang-up until now is the assumption that FF 1 occurs between pages 7 and 8 of Human Torch #1.  What if Johnny's statement, "and that's what I did on my summer vacation," referred, not to the summer just past, but rather the previous summer?  Or, what if he's just casting off his air of secrecy once and for all and bragging about the truth, and that he just said the "summer vacation" thing to be smug and snotty?  (This is my preference.)  Here's a NEW approach to Human Torch #1...

Place pages 1-7 of Human Torch #1 between ST 103 and FF 9.  It is the end of Johnny's sophomore year at this point, and he IS in Glenville.  Johnny is ALREADY the Human Torch at the beginning of Human Torch #1, but he's still in his secrecy mode.

Place pages 8-15 of Human Torch #1 at the beginning of Johnny's junior year, in early September," between ST 105 (the last secrecy issue) and FF 11/1 (ID known to world at large).  This would make Johnny's revelation to the class make sense, from a continuity standpoint.  His reference to a night battling Skrulls?  Well, maybe the battle was against the Wizard the previous day and Johnny just thought mentioning "Skrulls" was more impressive, or maybe just snotty (again).

How about placing the rest of Human Torch #1 between ST 108 and FF 13?  This would be the "October" and "November" before that Christmas vacation in FF 13-14.  By October 31, Avengers Mansion would exist, and Things reference in A 1.5 to FF 12 being "a coupla months ago" would be a little off -- how about "a coupla weeks" instead?  The party at Avengers Mansion may be a housewarming party for the newly christened HQ.

RECAP of my proposed calendar:

ST 101  late April
ST 102  early May
FF 8  May
ST 103  May
HT 1 (pg. 1-7)  mid June
FF 9  late June through July
ASM 1/2 ~ FF@ 1/2  August
ST 104  August
FF 10  August
ST 108-FB -- August
HT 1 (pg. 8-15)  early September
FF 11/1 -- September
ST 106  September
FF 11/2  September
ST 107  late September
FF 12  late September
ST 108  early October
HT 1 (pg. 16, pn. 1)  October 10th
HT 1 (pg. 16, pn. 2)  October 19th
HT 1 (pg. 16, pn. 3-4)  October 21st
HT 1 (pg. 16, pn. 5)  October 22nd
A 1.5  October
HT 1 (pg. 17, pn. 1)  October 29th
HT 1 (pg. 17, pn. 2)  October 31st 
HT 1 (pg. 17, pn. 3)  November 2nd
HT 1 (pg. 17, pn. 4-pg. 18)  November 5th
HT 1 (pg. 19-22)  November 7th
FF 13  late December
FF 14  late December

How about it?  Im sure that Kesel meant FF 1 to occur between pages 7 and 8 of Human Torch #1, but it just doesnt work.  He didnt do the homework to make a canon story fit continuity-wise, so we do the dirty work.  Can we chalk up a couple of Johnny statements to snottiness and fudge a temporal reference in A 1.5 to make this work?

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
Posted by SKleefeld@one.net on April 14, 2003 at 09:43:46:
In Reply to: Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 12, 2003 at 23:08:17:

> > > On "October 31" of Johnny's junior year in high school (page 17, panel 2 of Human Torch #1), presumably the semester following the summer he received his power, Johnny says that hes going to a costume party at Avengers Mansion.  Avengers Mansion did not exist until Avengers #1.5.  On page 3, panel 1 of Avengers #1.5, a news report states: At a late afternoon press conference, Iron Man confirmed reports that billionaire Anthony Stark has made his midtown mansion available to the Avengers for their meetings.  The Fantastic Four are watching this news report, and the Thing states, just a coupla months ago, the military brass wanted us to clobber the Hulk! (Editors note: in FF #12).  So, October 31 of Johnnys junior year occurs after Avengers #1.5, which happens a couple of months after FF 12.  This means that when Johnny returned to school as a junior (page 8 of Human Torch #1), FF 12 had already happened.  So why is Johnnys identity still unknown after FF 12?  Big continuity error there.

> > Not really. In Human Torch #1, several of Johnny's classmates don't believe he is the Torch. Is it so unlikely that a superhero that shows up in California and then New York City, and has a movie made about him is supposed to be the same kid you've grown up with in Glenville for the past 15 years? Indeed, even after gaining some notoriety in FF #1-3, there are multiple instances in #4 where average citizens disbelieve in the FF's very existence!

> Again, we're talking about disbelieving Johnny sometime after FF 12, not around FF 3 or 4.  Is that really likely?  Maybe it is, but I need your expertise on the FF to confirm it.

Well, I expect that public opinion on their existence changed somewhat after FF #9, when their movie came out. There still seemed a little ambiguity outside of New York until about FF #14 when the various members of the FF started receiving offers for outside gigs.

> Now, Olshevsky did deal with the discrepancy of Johnny's acting as if his ID were secret in Strange Tales #101-105: "The secrecy with which the Fantastic Four surround themselves, following the acquisition of their powers and before their first mission, becomes a habit difficult for Johnny Storm to break.  When the Fantastic Four move to New York City and Johnny and his sister set up housekeeping in Glenville (following FF2), Johnny behaves as if his Human Torch identity is secret in his adventures in Strange Tales #101-105."  Not completely satisfying, but this may help support placement of Johnny's "summer report" in Human Torch #1 AFTER ST 105, which in turn occurs after FF 10.  Question: do stories in ST 101-105 show Johnny in school, or might they occur in the summer, or perhaps early in the school year, before Johnny would do a summer vacation report?

> I have my own special gripes about the examples you mention.  But Human Torch #1 fits squarely within the post-FF #1 Marvel Universe and there's just no need to muck with known chronology here to tell the story.  I think it's our role to be more slavish to chronological continuity than some Marvel writers apparently are.  You know that I don't consider every temporal reference correct, but I resent that such references aren't researched before they're written into stories, when it's easy to do so.  Call me a curmudgeon ;(

I'll agree that it's OUR job to be more slavish to continuity than writers or editors, but that's precisely why writers SHOULDN'T be! They should do some basic checking to see that yes, Johnny was in high school when he gained his powers and yes, he was still living in Glenville with his sister and yes, she told him her father was dead even though he wasn't... But to ask a writer to research every story they write so thoroughly as to make sure that it fits with the precise calendaric placement of every other story...? Thanks, but I'd rather have just a decent story about characters I enjoy.

> My point is, for the sake of Kesel's storytelling, there's no reason not to nail the continuity and chronological references.  He could have told this story within the timeframe and chronology established by Marvel itself without a tremendous amount of homework.  He's not off a couple of months, he's off a year, according to existing references.  This sloppiness will mean our stepping in and choosing what and how many references to disregard.  Until now, things worked fine.

They only work fine because we've already had someone (Olshevsky) sort them out. Go through those old stories yourself WITHOUT the benefit of George's notes. It doesn't work. You've got the FF saying Johnny's a public figure living in NYC and Strange Tales saying he's a high school student in Glenville with a secret identity. Dorrie Evans is barely mentioned and isn't seen AT ALL in the FF until #134 -- where she's married and has 2 kids. The extent of Johnny's powers is all over the map. I mean, what the hell kind of flu bug does he get in Amazing Spider-Man #3 that he can stand up and give long lectures and sign autographs, but can't flame on for several days? That's the power of George's work -- that he sorted all that early business out for us.

My point here is that the writers have NEVER paid that strict adherence to continuity, and it's unfair to say Kesel should because he's playing in an older sandbox.

> I'm not criticizing the storytelling itself (as I am with the current Cap story), and I wouldn't post this critique in an ordinary comics fan forum site, but this is the Marvel CHRONOLOGY Project, after all.

Which is precisely why WE should examining this, not Kesel.

> Now, all that having been said, we do have some options here...

> 1) Pretend that Avengers Mansion reference doesn't exist because the Avengers aren't around yet.  Say FF 1 occurs in the summer between Johnny's sophomore and junior years.  Say that Johnny is still in his junior year A YEAR LATER, when Peter Parker is in his junior year.  Could Johnny have had to repeat his junior year?  Hey, the guy was an underachiever before the FF, and with his FF adventures, he had a rough go of it academically.  Question is: are there references in FF that would contradict this scenario?

> 2) Take the Johnny-repeats-junior-year theory and don't ignore the Avengers Mansion reference.  The October 31 that Johnny mentioned Avengers Mansion is actually 13 months, not one month, after his announcement to the class that he's the Human Torch.

This is actually SUPPORTED by existing work. When Stan first addressed the issue of Johnny's age (IIRC, it was in a lettercol around FF #5 or 6) he said Johnny was 17! Some time later, in FF Annual #1, he added that Johnny was already 16 when he gained his powers. Ignoring Human Torch for a moment, that puts Johnny pretty decisively at 17 entering his junior year, suggesting that he did repeat a grade somewhere in his career.

Plus, having dropped out of college TWICE since then also supports that he's not the best student. 

Now, add in the fact that we've got Johnny driving during the early pages in Human Torch with only a reprimand about his recklessness -- not his illegality -- further strengthens this argument. Even within the confines of HT, this means that Johnny was driving BEFORE his junior year. (Or at least the junior year that takes place during much of the issue.)

This would suggest that Johnny turned 16 at the end of his sophomore year, quickly got his license (Before the FF: The Storms shows he clearly knew HOW to drive long before he got his license), got his powers between his sophomore and junior years, went through his junior year trying to hide his identity (a la Strange Tales), was held back, didn't take summer school because he was doing FF stuff, started his second junior year, "came out" as the Torch, and got into a fight with Mike Snow.

Which all supports your "NEW" theory elsewhere in this thread.

> Figuring out the chronology here (and what references we need to consider and which to ignore) will have an impact on where we place Human Torch #1 and subsequent issues in the MCP.

For the purposes of the MCP, this doesn't have a HUGE impact, really. We know that the early pages are pre-FF #1. All we have to do is place the scenes RELATIVE to other scenes. Where they fall specifically in a calendar placement is irrelevant. 

I'm not saying the issue shouldn't be addressed -- it should -- just that it's not as important within the confines of the MCP's directives.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 15, 2003 at 20:53:45:
In Reply to: Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
posted by SKleefeld@one.net on April 14, 2003 at 09:43:46:

> Which all supports your "NEW" theory elsewhere in this thread.

Sean, please re-read that "new theory" post.  In it I suggest that ALL of Human Torch #1 occurs AFTER FF #1 and that Johnny didn't repeat junior year.  The first seven pages (end of sophomore year) would occur while Johnny is in his secrecy mode (ala Strange Tales), then after the FF movie is made in the summer, he decides to reveal his ID to his classmates at the beginning of junior year.  How does that work as an alternative solution?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
Posted by SKleefeld on April 16, 2003 at 07:23:26:
In Reply to: Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 15, 2003 at 20:53:45:

> > Which all supports your "NEW" theory elsewhere in this thread.

> Sean, please re-read that "new theory" post.  In it I suggest that ALL of Human Torch #1 occurs AFTER FF #1 and that Johnny didn't repeat junior year.  The first seven pages (end of sophomore year) would occur while Johnny is in his secrecy mode (ala Strange Tales), then after the FF movie is made in the summer, he decides to reveal his ID to his classmates at the beginning of junior year.  How does that work as an alternative solution?

GAH! That's what I get for scanning instead of actually reading!

Actually, the more I think about it, the better it works. There was a two panel flashback in FF #233 with Johnny in high school. He was kind of gawky, picked on by a bully, and (by extension) somewhat insecure. And this was said to have happened definitely BEFORE the rocket flight.

So if Johnny gets his powers after that point, hides them from the public, but still picks up a 'tude because he knows he can kick everyone's butt in school, I think that works surprisingly well.

Well, there you go then! On to the next problem! :)

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 16, 2003 at 19:55:06:
In Reply to: Re: Human Torch #1 versus early FF continuity
posted by SKleefeld on April 16, 2003 at 07:23:26:

> Actually, the more I think about it, the better it works. There was a two panel flashback in FF #233 with Johnny in high school. He was kind of gawky, picked on by a bully, and (by extension) somewhat insecure. And this was said to have happened definitely BEFORE the rocket flight.

> So if Johnny gets his powers after that point, hides them from the public, but still picks up a 'tude because he knows he can kick everyone's butt in school, I think that works surprisingly well.

> Well, there you go then! On to the next problem! :)

Yes, we can interpret this statement by Johnny on page 2 as a smug understatement -- "I help my sister's boyfriend a lot, testing super-secret experimental stuff.  Stuff I can't talk about."  By then he was doing a lot more than experiments as the Human Torch!

I'm willing to bet this isn't how Kesel intended the story to read, but... too bad, because it makes more sense from a continuity standpoint.

So I'm glad you agree, Sean.  Unless other folks have objections to the chronology I gave, we'll wait for Human Torch #2 to see if it still holds water, then suggest we add the new references to Johnny's MCP listing.

Thanks for indulging my rant about writers and continuity.  But I figure I can complain if I come up with solutions  ;)

--Paul

			*	*	*

Flashback Rules
Posted by Michael Kaiser on April 11, 2003 at 11:15:07:

I need a help.  What constitues a "flashback"?  

Hypothetically:

If Tony Stark, in his own book, was watching a documentary on Captain America fighting Nazis in WWII, would that scenario constitute a flashback appearance of Cap?  Or is a flashback only when someone declares "hmmmmm", points their finger to their chin, and thinks about the past <insert harp music>?

Actual Example:

The story in TALES OF SUSPENSE #77, involving the last time Cap sees Peggy Carter during the war, takes place entirely in the setting of WWII...except! the first and last pages, involving present day Steve reflecting on said events.  So is Peggy's appearance considered a flashback, even though 8 out of 10 pages of the story involve said flashback?  

Thanks for the help.

Mike....

			*	*	*

Re: Flashback Rules
Posted by Jhaeman on April 11, 2003 at 14:38:49:
In Reply to: Flashback Rules
posted by Michael Kaiser on April 11, 2003 at 11:15:07:

As for the Tales of Suspence issue, I would classify it as a flashback--it doesn't really matter how long the flashback is in comparison to the present events (in fact, many flashbacks are told with just an intro and end sequence).

As for your example with a television screen, that presents a harder question and I'm not sure.

Jhaeman
Comics That Time Forgot:  http://www.geocities.com/jhaeman

			*	*	*

Re: Flashback Rules
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 11, 2003 at 22:09:26:
In Reply to: Flashback Rules
posted by Michael Kaiser on April 11, 2003 at 11:15:07:

> I need a help.  What constitues a "flashback"?  

> Hypothetically:

> If Tony Stark, in his own book, was watching a documentary on Captain America fighting Nazis in WWII, would that scenario constitute a flashback appearance of Cap?  Or is a flashback only when someone declares "hmmmmm", points their finger to their chin, and thinks about the past <insert harp music>?

At the risk of stepping on Russ' toes...

If a scene of a past event is shown on TV, it is a flashback in that comic and would be listed if: 1) it were a scene previously unpublished; and 2) there were at least one named character in it.

This holds true for movies shown of past events as well.  Check out flashbacks in A 83 for example.

In fact, I believe even photographs have been treated as flashbacks in the MCP on several occasions, whenever their placement can be nailed.  I can't think of specific examples, but Captain Marvel comes to mind for some reason.

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Flashback Rules
Posted by Jeph! on April 11, 2003 at 23:19:15:
In Reply to: Re: Flashback Rules
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 11, 2003 at 22:09:26:

> In fact, I believe even photographs have been treated as flashbacks in the MCP on several occasions, whenever their placement can be nailed.  I can't think of specific examples, but Captain Marvel comes to mind for some reason.

I remember reading in the FAQ somewhere that photos in general aren't allowable, but Russ bent the rules for me in Excalibur #4 -- the first page is a full-page photograph of an event we'd never seen before, accompanied by copious narration detailing the event in question.

I think the FAQ rules mainly apply to those posed photos of various Avengers teams you see around the mansion, or random photos of Uncle Ben and Aunt may on a bedside table.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

MERLIN...MERLYN...MINERVA
Posted by Arthur Stein on April 11, 2003 at 15:10:17:

new entries marked **

MERLIN
Merlin appears in CA 306 and in IM 250, both of which I place after ST 134 and before XCAL:P;  but I have no idea where they might fall in relation to the CB issues:
ST 134
CB 1-FB
CB 2-FB
CB 2
CB 33
CB 34
CB 35
CB 36
CB 37
XCAL:P
XCAL 47

MERLYN
**XCAL 50-FB
**XCAL 49
**XCAL 50
XCAL 125

MINERVA [KREE]
CM 52
**CM 53
CM 55

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

			*	*	*

Merlin = Merlyn
Posted by Jeph! on April 11, 2003 at 23:52:04:
In Reply to: MERLIN...MERLYN...MINERVA
posted by Arthur Stein on April 11, 2003 at 15:10:17:

Merlin and Merlyn are the same character -- in various issues of Captain Britain it was revealed that the mythical "Merlin" of King Arthur's court was an ancient, shapeshifting alien being.  Alan Moore's later issues reshaped that to portray him as the guardian of Otherworld (and overseer of much of the Omniverse), and father of Roma.  His given name is "Merlyn", but history has spelled it "Merlin".

His integrated chronology follows (including UK issues I haven't properly written up yet, included to more accurately place the CA 306 appearance).

Enries ** double-starred have either been pointed out by Arthur just now or by me previously.  Entries *single-starred are UK books that I will properly contribute eventually.

XCAL 50-FB
A@ 22/2
N 62-FB
BK2 1-FB
BK2 2-FB
A@ 20/2-FB
IM 209-FB
FF 5-BTS ~ DAZZ 3-FB
CB 35-FB
*CB2 7-FB
ST 134
CB 1-FB
** M/TU 65-FB
** CB 1-FB
CB 2-FB
CB 2
CB 33
CB 34
CB 35
CB 36
CB 37
*HC 23 (2)
*HC 24 (2)
*HC 25 (2)
*HC 26 (2)
*HC 27 (2)
*HC 28 (2)
*HC 29 (2)
*HC 30 (2)
*HC 42 (3)
*HC 43 (2)
*HC 44 (2)
*HC 48 (2)
*HC 53 (2)
*HC 54 (2)
*HC 55 (2)
*HC 60 (2)
*HC 61 (2)
*HC 62 (2)
*M/SH2 377
*M/SH2 383
*DDS 1
*DDS 9
*DDS 10
** CA 306
*MWM/ 9/2
*MWM/ 11/2
*MWM/ 12/2
*MWM/ 13
** IM 250
XCAL:P
XCAL 47
XCAL 48-BTS
XCAL 49
XCAL 50
XCAL 125

Arthur's "new" entries for "Merlyn" in Excalibur #49-50 are already listed under "Merlin".

The CA 306 appearance guest-stars Captain Britain, who's not at all surprised to see Merlyn -- so it must occur before the events that lead to Merlyn's presumed death (presumed by all including CB) in MWM/ #9-13.

I have placed the IM 250 appearance solely by publication date -- Mighty World of Marvel #13 was published in 1984, Iron Man #250 in 1989, and Excalibur: the Possession in 1991.  Merlyn's presumed death at the time shouldn't be a problem, considering that the only Avengers-related character who thought Merlin was dead was the Black Knight, and even if he put that info into the Avengers database, it's likely that Dane didn't connect him to the mythical Merlin.

On the other hand, is it possible that the character in IM 250 is actually Merlin-impersonator the Maha Yogi?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Merlin x "2020"
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on April 12, 2003 at 09:05:40:
In Reply to: Merlin = Merlyn
posted by Jeph! on April 11, 2003 at 23:52:04:

Jeph! spake:

> I have placed the IM 250 appearance solely by publication date -- Mighty World of Marvel #13 was published in 1984, Iron Man #250 in 1989, and Excalibur: the Possession in 1991.

IM 250 took place in the alternate future of Arno Stark, so I'd say this book doesn't belong in Merlin's Mainstream chronology.  Perhaps we could have a link to a "2020-verse" page at the point in his chrono where the divergence takes place.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

MERLIN Versus MERLYN
Posted by Don Campbell on April 12, 2003 at 01:49:21:
In Reply to: MERLIN...MERLYN...MINERVA
posted by Arthur Stein on April 11, 2003 at 15:10:17:

> new entries marked **

> MERLIN
> Merlin appears in CA 306 and in IM 250, both of which I place after ST 134 and before XCAL:P;  but I have no idea where they might fall in relation to the CB issues:

> ST 134
> CB 1-FB
> CB 2-FB
> CB 2
> CB 33
> CB 34
> CB 35
> CB 36
> CB 37
> XCAL:P
> XCAL 47

> MERLYN
> **XCAL 50-FB
> **XCAL 49
> **XCAL 50
> XCAL 125

I may be wrong but I believe that you (and the MCP) are a bit confused about something. In the Marvel Universe there have been no less than THREE different characters who have called themselves Merlin.  The first Merlin was the wizard who served King Arthur at Camelot and was mentor to the original Black Knight, Sir Percy of Scandia.  The second Merlin was actually a mutant who once impersonated the REAL Merlin at Camelot and who has more recently called himself the Maha Yogi. The third Merlin was the alien ruler of the extra-dimensional realm of Otherworld who transformed Brian Braddock into Captain Britain of Earth-616.  Here's the important point: Brian Braddock's benefactor's name has been spelt two different ways. Originally the character's name was spelt "Merlin" but later, after his return from the dead in EXCALIBUR, the spelling of his name was changed to "Merlyn."  As far as I know, the only reason for this change was to DISTINGUISH him from the wizard Merlin.

I want to emphasize that the Merlin of Camelot and the Merlyn of Otherworld are supposed to be DIFFERENT characters. However, there is one story that seems to indicate otherwise. In CA 305-306, the sorcerer Modred the Mystic seeks vengeance on his enemy, the wizard Merlin from Camelot. He does so by attacking Captain Britain, whom he believes serves that Merlin.  And that belief is seemingly confirmed when, after Modred is defeated, Captain Britain's benefactor appears (as "Merlin the Magician") and transports Modred to the "other world" in which he now dwells.  Despite this Merlin's apparent recognition of Modred, I still believe that the two Merlins are separate beings, mostly because the origin of the Merlin from Camelot recounted in NAMOR #62 is VERY different from the partial origin of Merlyn that was told in EXCALIBUR #50.  If both origins are valid, then they MUST be different beings.

Here are what I believe to be the correct entries for the three Merlins:

* indicates uncertain placement

MERLIN (OF CAMELOT)/MYRADDIN (OF RUTA)
N 62-FB (as Myraddin, came from Ruta and changed his name to Merlin)
A@ 22/2
BK2 1-FB
BK2 2-FB
A@ 20/2-FB
*FF 5-BTS ~ DAZZ 3-FB
*ST 134
IM 209-FB
*BK2 2-FB
IM 250

IM 250 takes place in the late 21st century.  In it, Merlin claims that he entered a state of suspended animation shortly before the fall of Camelot and was fated to remain there until 17 years after King Arthur was reborn to save England from a great disaster.  Everything in that story supported Merlin's claims about who he was and what happened to him.

MERLIN II/See Maha Yogi
As far as I can tell, everything about the Maha Yogi's entry is accurate except that his entry's title should show his aliases.
MAHA YOGI/"MERLIN"/"MERLIN DEMONSPAWN"

Also, the Maha Yogi may be the "Merlin" whom Sersi is shown upstaging in Camelot in a flashback in ETERNALS (Vol. 1) #4.

MERLYN (OF OTHERWORLD)/"MERLIN"/"MYRD"
XCAL 50-FB (name spelt "Merlyn")
CB 1-FB (name spelt "Merlin")
CB 2-FB
CB 2
*CA 306 (as "Merlin the Magician")
CB 33
CB 34
CB 35
CB 36
CB 37 ("Merlin" supposedly died)
XCAL:P (as "Myrd" and "Merlin")
XCAL 47 (name first spelt "Merlyn")
XCAL 49
XCAL 50
XCAL 125

I am REALLY not certain as to where CA 306 fits into Merlyn's chronology. The story supposedly takes place within a few weeks of Captain Britain's change of costume but I think that that costume change occurred in the middle of a storyline in which "Merlin" supposedly died before it ended.  If anybody out there has those issues of Captain Britain handy, could you check and see if there are any gaps in the action into which CA 306 might fit?  Specifically, any time within CB #33-37 when Brian Braddock is on Earth-616 AND wearing his new costume AND not facing imminent death at the hands of the Fury (or was it Mad Jim Jaspers Version 2?).

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: MERLIN Versus MERLYN
Posted by Jeph! on April 12, 2003 at 10:58:54:
In Reply to: MERLIN Versus MERLYN
posted by Don Campbell on April 12, 2003 at 01:49:21:

> I want to emphasize that the Merlin of Camelot and the Merlyn of Otherworld are supposed to be DIFFERENT characters. However, there is one story that seems to indicate otherwise.

Actually, there's more than one.  Captain Britain #33-37 show the origin of Merlyn of Otherworld, and they show him to be, as I said last night, the same as the Merlin from Camelot.  Also, in Hulk Comic, Camelot is revealed to have been MOVED to Otherworld, and in HC #59-63, King Arthur is resurrected and reunited with Merlin -- the same Merlin who is friends with the Black Knight.  And the Black Knight attended the funeral of Merlyn of Otherworld.

Every single UK story ever told treats Merlyn of Otherworld as the same character as our historical Merlin.

> Despite this Merlin's apparent recognition of Modred, I still believe that the two Merlins are separate beings, mostly because the origin of the Merlin from Camelot recounted in NAMOR #62 is VERY different from the partial origin of Merlyn that was told in EXCALIBUR #50.  If both origins are valid, then they MUST be different beings.

Well, since the Excalibur version is backed up by the CB and HC issues, I'd tend to believe IT over the single Namor story.  If it helps, in the Jaspers Warp saga, and later in Excalibur, Merlyn was written as quite a manipulator -- he engineered the events of "Hulk Comic" and "Excalibur: the Possession", for example, and faked his own death even as far as his own daughter was concerned.  I could easily see him lying about his backstory in Namor, if it suited his purposes.

> IM 250 takes place in the late 21st century.  In it, Merlin claims that he entered a state of suspended animation shortly before the fall of Camelot and was fated to remain there until 17 years after King Arthur was reborn to save England from a great disaster.  Everything in that story supported Merlin's claims about who he was and what happened to him.

In the UK books, Merlyn returned to Otherworld shortly before the fall of Camelot (as shown in CB #35-FB), and when Arthur was resurrected in HC #59, Merlin had already returned (and in fact had engineered his resurrection).

> I am REALLY not certain as to where CA 306 fits into Merlyn's chronology. The story supposedly takes place within a few weeks of Captain Britain's change of costume but I think that that costume change occurred in the middle of a storyline in which "Merlin" supposedly died before it ended.  If anybody out there has those issues of Captain Britain handy, could you check and see if there are any gaps in the action into which CA 306 might fit?  Specifically, any time within CB #33-37 when Brian Braddock is on Earth-616 AND wearing his new costume AND not facing imminent death at the hands of the Fury (or was it Mad Jim Jaspers Version 2?).

Well, you've got the sequence of events right, but not the issues.  CB #33-37 are much much earlier -- you're thinking about the Alan Davis-drawn storyline that ran from M/SH2 #377-388 through DDS #1-11 and MWM/ #7-13.

And as my earlier post mentions, there is such a gap -- just before the Jaspers Warp fully hits England and Merlyn begins the chess game that led to his (faking his) death, between DDS #11 and MMM/ #7.

-Jeph!

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Re: MERLIN Versus MERLYN
Posted by Don Campbell on April 12, 2003 at 12:55:33:
In Reply to: Re: MERLIN Versus MERLYN
posted by Jeph! on April 12, 2003 at 10:58:54:

> > I want to emphasize that the Merlin of Camelot and the Merlyn of Otherworld are supposed to be DIFFERENT characters. However, there is one story that seems to indicate otherwise.

> Actually, there's more than one.  Captain Britain #33-37 show the origin of Merlyn of Otherworld, and they show him to be, as I said last night, the same as the Merlin from Camelot.  Also, in Hulk Comic, Camelot is revealed to have been MOVED to Otherworld, and in HC #59-63, King Arthur is resurrected and reunited with Merlin -- the same Merlin who is friends with the Black Knight.  And the Black Knight attended the funeral of Merlyn of Otherworld.

> Every single UK story ever told treats Merlyn of Otherworld as the same character as our historical Merlin.

That doesn't necessarily mean anything more than that the UK and US branchs of Marvel Comics were rather lax about continuity even then. Aside from CA 306, I can't think of ANY US Marvel comic that even suggests that the Merlin of Camelot is anything other than the wizard from the old myths (ie. NOT an alien from another dimension) and that includes the EXCALIBUR issues in which Merlyn appeared.

Here's a quote from the entry for Merlin(s) in the Deluxe Edition of the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe:  "Another claimant to the name of Merlin is a humanoid alien who was based in an extradimensional realm known as Otherworld. It is unclear whether this Merlin and the Merlin of Arthur's time are two separate beings, or whether they are in fact the same person.  If the two are the same, then either he is not truly an alien or not truly the son of a demon and an Earthwoman. King Arthur himself apparently lives in Otherworld, having been transported there after his seeming demise by Morgan le Fey and others."

> > Despite this Merlin's apparent recognition of Modred, I still believe that the two Merlins are separate beings, mostly because the origin of the Merlin from Camelot recounted in NAMOR #62 is VERY different from the partial origin of Merlyn that was told in EXCALIBUR #50.  If both origins are valid, then they MUST be different beings.

> Well, since the Excalibur version is backed up by the CB and HC issues, I'd tend to believe IT over the single Namor story.  If it helps, in the Jaspers Warp saga, and later in Excalibur, Merlyn was written as quite a manipulator -- he engineered the events of "Hulk Comic" and "Excalibur: the Possession", for example, and faked his own death even as far as his own daughter was concerned.  I could easily see him lying about his backstory in Namor, if it suited his purposes.

It could also be argued that Merlyn of Otherworld, if it suited his purposes, could have manipulated events to make others believe that he was the Merlin of Camelot when he really wasn't.  I am at something of a disadvantage in this discussion since the only UK Captain Britain stories I've ever read were those reprinted in the Captain Britain TPB and the X-Men Archives: Captain Britain limited series. However, the information about Merlin's past as Myraddin that was revealed in NAMOR #62 came to Namor from the spirit of King Kamuu of ancient Atlantis and the info he provided was backed up by subsequent events (ie. the raising of Atlantis by Morgan Le Fay). Exactly how reliable are those CB and HC stories that recount the moving of Camelot to Otherworld and the resurrection of King Arthur? I mean, are they told by someone objective (like Uatu the Watcher) or do they come from Merlyn (who has been known to LIE) or one of Merlyn's subjects (who may only be repeating what Merlyn told him)?

> > IM 250 takes place in the late 21st century.  In it, Merlin claims that he entered a state of suspended animation shortly before the fall of Camelot and was fated to remain there until 17 years after King Arthur was reborn to save England from a great disaster.  Everything in that story supported Merlin's claims about who he was and what happened to him.

> In the UK books, Merlyn returned to Otherworld shortly before the fall of Camelot (as shown in CB #35-FB), and when Arthur was resurrected in HC #59, Merlin had already returned (and in fact had engineered his resurrection).

In HEROES FOR HIRE #2, Dane Whitman was brought to Avalon by the Lady of the Lake. She showed him the tomb of King Arthur and explained that his prophesied return was never meant to be an actual resurrection.  Instead, a new champion would be chosen to take Arthur's place as Pendragon and Dane was her choice. And in IM 250, Arthur is reborn as a form of reincarnation, not a resurrection, and the truth of that reincarnation is proven (at least to Tony Stark's satisfaction) by the fact that the boy-king claiming to be Arthur knows of trivial things that happened when Iron Man and Doctor Doom travelled back in time and arrived at Camelot shortly before its fall (and after Merlin had imprisoned Morgan Le Fay in her castle and then fallen prey to Nimue and entered a state of suspended animation). And in the flashback in BK2 #1, Merlin is only able to appear before the motally-wounded (original) Black Knight as a "merest shade" which suggests that he was unable to be there in person.

Also in IM 250, when Merlin needs to get the sword Ecxcalibur for Iron Man, who is acting as the boy-king's chosen champion, he goes to the lake of legend --- only to find that it has been paved over. Despite this, Merlin manages to uncover the lake and calls upon the ALady of the Lake for the sword and she responds (or  at least her arm does).

> On the other hand, is it possible that the character in IM 250 is actually Merlin-impersonator the Maha Yogi?

Since the reincarnation of Arthur seems to be valid, I would doubt that the Merlin in IM 250 is anyone other than the wizard from Camelot.

Don Campbell

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Re: MERLIN Versus MERLYN
Posted by Jeph! on April 13, 2003 at 00:10:28:
In Reply to: Re: MERLIN Versus MERLYN
posted by Don Campbell on April 12, 2003 at 12:55:33:

Looks like I'll have to pull out the books and do some research on this one.  Give me a few days; I'm going to be working all day Sunday, but I have Monday off.  I'll try to tackle this then -- but for now I just want to mention a few things.

> Aside from CA 306, I can't think of ANY US Marvel comic that even suggests that the Merlin of Camelot is anything other than the wizard from the old myths (ie. NOT an alien from another dimension) and that includes the EXCALIBUR issues in which Merlyn appeared.

Well, the Excalibur issues were building on the UK books in which Merlyn's credentials WERE established -- the story was told taking it for GRANTED that Merlyn = Merlin.  It's a bit like an issue of X-Men not bothering to clearly establish that the characters are mutants, simply because the previous story arcs have already established that fact.  It's unneccesary.

> Here's a quote from the entry for Merlin(s) in the Deluxe Edition of the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe:  "Another claimant to the name of Merlin is a humanoid alien who was based in an extradimensional realm known as Otherworld. It is unclear whether this Merlin and the Merlin of Arthur's time are two separate beings, or whether they are in fact the same person.  If the two are the same, then either he is not truly an alien or not truly the son of a demon and an Earthwoman. King Arthur himself apparently lives in Otherworld, having been transported there after his seeming demise by Morgan le Fey and others."

Uhm -- well, first off, Merlyn is not an ALIEN from another dimension, he's simply ... from another dimension.  Otherworld is essentially a parallel dimension, akin to earth.

Secondly, at his funeral in MWM/ #13, his daughter Roma eulogized him by calling him "firstborn of the devil" -- which backs up the "son of a demon and an Earthwoman" claim made by the ORIGINAL Merlin.

> I am at something of a disadvantage in this discussion since the only UK Captain Britain stories I've ever read were those reprinted in the Captain Britain TPB and the X-Men Archives: Captain Britain limited series ... Exactly how reliable are those CB and HC stories that recount the moving of Camelot to Otherworld and the resurrection of King Arthur?

I'll take a closer look as soon as I can.  However, the way I see it, we've got a few things to sift through:

Merlyn's claims to the Black Knight and Captain Britain -- it's already been revealed that at least part of the epic battle waged in HC #1-63 was manipulated by Merlyn simply to get CB accustomed to fighting demons and magic.  In fact, later issues of MWM/ implied that Merlyn did this with MANY members of the Captain Britain Corps, and that "Camelot" and "Merlyn" looked different every time (Captain UK visited Otherworld with a man named "Myrr", but claims that the castles she saw was quite different).

Merlyn's claims to his daughter -- while Merlyn apparently played things more straight with Roma, he did lie to her by faking his own death.  Nonetheless, she seemed to be a partner or protege to much of Merlyn's manipulations, and she knows much more about true events than CB does.

Merlyn's interaction with Arthur -- the two are supposed to be old friends, and some scenes in M/SH2 show the two of them talking alone, musing over CB's fate (ie, CB wasn't there and those scenes wouldn't be part of any scenario).

Merlyn's musings alone -- these would likely be the most telling.

> In HEROES FOR HIRE #2, Dane Whitman was brought to Avalon by the Lady of the Lake. She showed him the tomb of King Arthur and explained that his prophesied return was never meant to be an actual resurrection.

Funny that Dane doesn't mention being present for a literal resurrection of Arthur in HC #59 -- watching a skeleton return to life and cover itself with flesh and clothes, becoming the legendary King Arthur right before your eyes would tend to stick in your memory...

> And in the flashback in BK2 #1, Merlin is only able to appear before the motally-wounded (original) Black Knight as a "merest shade" which suggests that he was unable to be there in person.

Hmm.  At that time Merlyn would have been on Otherworld -- perhaps he was projecting himself?

> Also in IM 250 ... Merlin manages to uncover the lake and calls upon the ALady of the Lake for the sword and she responds (or  at least her arm does).

Merlyn calls upon the Lady of the Lake in early issues of Hulk Comic as well, and she delivers Excalibur, which Dane uses as his own sword while the shattered Ebony Blade is being repaired.

Hmm.  Maybe I should get started on writing up those HC issues.  Meanwhile, you can find my write-ups of CB #1-39 somewhere farther down the board (or into the Archives ... how's that for vague?).

I'll look into the UK issues later this week.

-Jeph!

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Re: MERLIN Versus MERLYN
Posted by Don Campbell on April 14, 2003 at 12:23:42:
In Reply to: Re: MERLIN Versus MERLYN
posted by Jeph! on April 13, 2003 at 00:10:28:

> Well, the Excalibur issues were building on the UK books in which Merlyn's credentials WERE established -- the story was told taking it for GRANTED that Merlyn = Merlin.  It's a bit like an issue of X-Men not bothering to clearly establish that the characters are mutants, simply because the previous story arcs have already established that fact.  It's unneccesary.

The problem lies in the fact that most non-British readers of Marvel Comics have never had the opportunity to read any of those UK books you mentioned. As a result, there is no way that we could know that Merlyn of Otherworld was supposed to be the same person as Merlin of Camelot. Just because those EXCALIBUR issues are based on a certain assumption doesn't help us if that assumption is never spelled out. This is especially true when the only Merlin who appears in the Marvel stories that we have read is treated simply as the wizard Merlin of myth.

In North America, the character of Merlin has appeared in only a few Marvel stories. First, there's a STRANGE TALES story that I've never had the opportunity to read. It tells how Kang attacked Camelot by surprise, imprisoning Merlin, and how Uatu the Watcher brought the Human Torch and the Thing back in time to free Merlin and defeat Kang.

Second, there are those stories dealing with the original Black Knight, Sir Percy of Scandia. Again, I've never read the original BLACK KNIGHT series or MARVEL SUPER-HEROES #17 (which details the fall of Camelot) but I have read the BLACK KNIGHT limited series in which Merlin appears in flashbacks only. There's also the Anachronauts story in AVENGERS ANNUAL #22 in which Merlin makes a cameo appearance as he obtains the meteorite that he will forge into the Ebony Sword.

Third, Merlin is mentioned by Tyrannus in his first appearance but what happened was not shown for years, not until the History of Subterranea back-up story in AVENGERS ANNUAL #20.

Fourth, Merlin is a pivotal but unseen character in the life of Modred the Mystic since it was fear of becoming Merlin's apprentice that drove Modred to read the Darkhold. There is a MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE story in which Modred and the Thing battle four elementals forward in time by Merlin to capture Modred when he finally awakened. And Merlin finally appeared in connection to Modred in a "Tales of the Vishanti" back-up in DOCTOR STRANGE, SORCERER SUPREME as the wizard who scattered the Darkhold pages across the world after Modred cursed himself.

Fifth, when the character now known as the Maha Yogi first appeared in JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #96 and battled Thor, he claimed (or it was implied) that he was Merlin of Camelot. A later story in INCREDIBLE HULK #210 revealed that he had really only impersonated Merlin during one of the real wizard's absences and that the real Merlin cast him into suspended animation when he returned.

Sixth, Merlin made a one-panel cameo in ETERNALS #4 as someone who didn't have much real magic...until Sersi showed him a trick or two.

Seventh, in NAMOR #62 the spirit of King Kamuu of the surface kingdom of Atlantis appeared to Namor to warn him of the danger that Morgan le Fay's plans to raise the continent of Atlantis pose to his people. Kamuu's spirit did so by recounting the shared origin of Merlin and Morgan as two of the few survivors of the eruption and tidal waves that destroyed the islands (including Avalon and Ruta) that had been created when the Great Cataclysm caused the rest of the continent of Atlantis to sink benath the waves.

Finally, there are his appearances in IRON MAN #150 and 250. Actually, Merlin only appears in flashbacks in IM 150 as King Arthur describes how Merlin always helped him thwart Morgana Le Fey's plans, how Merlin imprisoned Morgana in her own castle and how Merlin "(succumbed) to a fate decreed by the goddess, Nimue" and "(laid) himself in his own grave, to sleep for centuries, until bidden once more to wake." IM 250 is a sequel to that story. In an alternate future Earth of 2093, Merlin has awakened to help the reincarnated King Arthur save Britain (and the world) from some dread menace. Unfortunately, unforeseen circumstances have left Arthur as a boy-king incapable of facing the threat on his own so Merlin summons Iron Man and Doctor Doom from the past and gets the sword Excalibur from the Lady of the Lake for Iron Man to use in battle.

These are the only appearances by Merlin that I can remember and none of them even hints as to him being anything other that the wizard of myth.

> Uhm -- well, first off, Merlyn is not an ALIEN from another dimension, he's simply ... from another dimension.  Otherworld is essentially a parallel dimension, akin to earth.

That's fine...except that none of the EXCALIBUR stories ever explained exactly what Otherworld was supposed to be (aside from being another dimension that was the home of Roma and the Captain Britain Corps). From what I read, I got the impression that while there were an infinite number of alternate Earths, each with their own version of Captain Britain, there was only one Otherworld. In that respect Otherworld seemed somewhat like Limbo, in that it was immune from divergence. Also, even if Otherworld IS just an alternate Earth, Merlyn is not native to Earth-616, and that's enough for him to be considered an alien.

In conclusion, I think that this whole Merlin/Merlyn question stems from a lack of communication. The legends of Merlin, King Arthur and Camelot are known throughout the world. Over time, many writers have used elements of those myths in their stories (I can think of at least SIX different uses of the name Avalon, ALL of which seem to refer to DIFFERENT places. ARGH!). Writers working for Marvel Comics in the USA have generally written Merlin as simply being King Arthur's wizard from Camelot while writers for Marvel UK decided to make Merlin into an immortal shape-changing being from another dimension. All of which would have been fine...if they'd just told each other what they were doing with the same character so that some sort of consensus could have been reached. As it is, we are left with the present situation of the UK version of Merlyn not being consistent with the US version. I am not proposing that we attempt to resolve this confusion ourselves. That's for some future writer to handle (when or if Marvel ever decides that it needs to be addressed). No, I'm simply suggesting that we acknowledge the differing interpretations of Merlin by giving them separate entries in the MCP, with all of Merlin's appearances in CB or UK stories being listed under "MERLYN" and all other Merlin appearances listed under "MERLIN OF CAMELOT".

One final thought. All in all, I think the main reason that I believe that Merlyn and Merlin are separate characters has to do with the power levels that they have been shown to possess. Merlin of Camelot is simply a wizard, albeit more powerful than most, and he is usually shown doing things that Doctor Strange could do. On the other hand, Merlyn comes off as a much more powerful being. He ruled Otherworld, created the Captain Britain Corps and resurrected Brian Braddock. He has also been shown using advanced technology to accomplish some of these feats, distinguishing him from Merlin of Camelot, who has only been shown using magic. Most importantly, Merlyn seems to have even greater power than his daughter, Roma, and that's saying a lot since Roma has been presented as being a VERY powerful being (in her role as guardian of the multiverse). Beings like Galactus and Eternity have met with her, at HER request. One of her subordinates is Opal Luna Saturnyne, the omniversal majestrix, who has the authority to order the destruction of an entire dimension (and can do so by flipping a switch). There are also those Chris Claremeont stories which describe Roma as being "older than Earth, though still counted as young among her people." Statements like that tend to impress one. In comparison, Merlin of Camelot had difficulty dealing with Morgan Le Fay and was unable to prevent the fall of Camelot. From the way in which Merlyn has been presented, I got the feeling that he could have dealt with Morgan simply by snapping his fingers.

Anyway, that's my opinion. Comments?

Don Campbell

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More Merlyn Mania!
Posted by Jeph! on April 14, 2003 at 17:34:10:
In Reply to: Re: MERLIN Versus MERLYN
posted by Don Campbell on April 14, 2003 at 12:23:42:

Still haven't found the time to flip through the Hulk Comic issues, but I wanted to mention a few things here:

The first few times we saw Merlyn in the UK stories  from his first appearance in CB #1 straight through the entire Hulk Comic arc and M/SH2 #388  he was treated as the mythical Merlin of Camelot.  Characters interacted with him and remembered him as such; flashbacks showed him as such.  The only ADDITION to this Merlin was the creation of his daughter, Roma.

The "big reveal" in The Daredevils #1 was that Merlin was actually MERLYN, a shape-changer from Otherworld who had been manipulating Captain Britain's life for years, subtlely nudging him on the path of heroism necessary for CB to, ultimately, be worthy of taking over for Merlyn himself as Guardian of Otherworld (which is what finally happened in EXCAL2 #4).

Looking at it in that light, it COULD easily be argued (as you have been doing) that all along Merlyn has been lying.  CB didn't discover the truth about Merlyn until EXCAL #50.

Now, if there were two versions of Merlin running around the *current* Marvel Universe  one claiming to be the mythical Merlin, one claiming to be the sovereign of Otherworld AND the mythical Merlin  I'd find it easier to separate the two.  But, currently, the whereabouts of the mythical/historical Merlin are unknown  and the claims of MerLYN must then be considered.

I'm not sure how anything you've pointed out actually CONTRADICTS the stated origin of MerLYN in the UK books: he's an immortal magic-user from Otherworld who came to our world, lived as a sorceror in King Arthur's court for a while, and then returned to Otherworld.

You say that Namor #62 shows Merlin to be pre-cataclysmic Atlantean  I say, perhaps he was just living on the island at the time of the sinking.

You say that he put himself into suspended animation  well, I can show you ANOTHER time he faked his own death to remove himself from a scenario, in MWM/ 11-13.

You say that MerLYN appears much more powerful than Merlin  well, much of the abilities you mention rely on Otherworld technology  perhaps none of it was invented thousands of years ago during the time of Camelot.  Also, Merlyn has a history of posing as a subservient in order to nudge events along the path he chooses.

I would be satisfied with a notation in the MCP that "Merlyn of Otherworld claims to be Merlin of Camelot".  I mean, the two entries are pretty much next to each other anyway; what does it REALLY matter if they're combined or separate?  Merlyn has manipulated so many events anyway, it's probably going to be impossible to PROVE their connection one way or another  any proof I offer could be waved away as more manipulation.

However, getting back to the bit that started this whole thread  I feel that the character who appeared in CA #306 was, in fact, MERLYN, mainly because he recognizes and interacts with Captain Britain.  At this point in CB's history, he has not yet learned the truth about Merlyn, so it would make sense for Merlyn to appear in his "Merlin" guise, to maintain his ruse.  Also, Modred battled MerLYN in several issues of Hulk Comic, so regardless of whether or not Merlyn = Merlin, Modred and Merlyn do have SOME shared history.

Let me touch on a few of your points specifically

> > the [Excalibur] story was told taking it for GRANTED that Merlyn = Merlin. It's a bit like an issue of X-Men not bothering to clearly establish that the characters are mutants  It's unneccesary.

> The problem lies in the fact that most non-British readers of Marvel Comics have never had the opportunity to read any of those UK books you mentioned  Just because those EXCALIBUR issues are based on a certain assumption doesn't help us if that assumption is never spelled out.

I should point out that the CB2 magazine was imported to the US, as was the original 1988 "Captain Britain" TPB  both BEFORE the publication of Excalibur.  Those books made reference to, and flashed back to, the earlier Merlin/Merlyn stories including the HC run, the Jaspers Warp, and Merlin's death.  US readers of Excalibur WOULD have some original UK stories to refer to, as well as recaps of older stories.

And, sadly, that's the nature of serial fiction.  Some stories are sequels to others  and sometimes, you simply can't read the original story, either because it's too expensive for you, or because it was published in another country.  In this case, the CB TPB establishes Merlin as the one who gave CB his power, and the one who died, leaving Guardianship of Otherworld to his daughter Roma.  It links him visually to Merlin the Magician, but doesn't spell it out explicitly.

> Fourth, Merlin is a pivotal but unseen character in the life of Modred the Mystic since it was fear of becoming Merlin's apprentice that drove Modred to read the Darkhold.

And Modred appears, as I mentioned above, as a supporting villain in the HC run.  I'll have to look closer to see if Merlin remembers/recognizes Modred as well, or if it's just Modred attacking MerLYN, mistaking him for Merlin (considering that he's posing as him at the time).

I tend to take the events of HC as relative canon, despite Merlyn's admitted manipulation  his style of manipulation is not to FALSIFY events, but to nudge factors so that specific events occur.  Therefore, although he may have altered the shape of his castle, and his name and appearance, between the time Captain UK was there and the time Captain Britain was there, we can rest assured that the events of the battle *actually occurred* -- an important distinction to make, considering we're talking about events such as the resurrection of King Arthur.  Although Merlyn may have forced the situation, I maintain that it actually DID happen and was not simply an illusion or impostor.

> > Merlyn is not an ALIEN from another dimension, he's simply ... from another dimension. Otherworld is essentially a parallel dimension, akin to earth.

> That's fine...except that none of the EXCALIBUR stories ever explained exactly what Otherworld was supposed to be (aside from being another dimension that was the home of Roma and the Captain Britain Corps).

Otherworld is NOT the "home" of the Corps.  It's the ultimate HQ or staging ground, sure, but each member of the Corps is native to, and stationed in, their own reality.

> From what I read, I got the impression that while there were an infinite number of alternate Earths, each with their own version of Captain Britain, there was only one Otherworld.

Yes, but there's only one Earth-616, too.  There's only "one" of EACH alternate earth, just like there's only ONE Otherworld.

What you're saying is, there don't appear to be any "alternate" Otherworlds stemming from temporal meddling or anything else that causes a split in a timeline.  Quite true  except, all that means is that we haven't seen them, not that they don't exist.  It's alleged that there are no alternate Mojoworlds, either.

> In that respect Otherworld seemed somewhat like Limbo, in that it was immune from divergence.

How do we know that some alternate worlds AREN'T immune from divergence?  The Forever Crystal (from "Avengers Forever") has the power to keep both results of a divergence in the same timeline  it's possible that, using similar technology, one could bind an entire dimension to be immune from divergence.

Excalibur #50 depicts the team "rising through the Multiverses", and several issues of X-Man depict the dimensional separations as a rising spiral.  Call "Otherworld" Earth-1, at the very top of the Spiral.

> Also, even if Otherworld IS just an alternate Earth, Merlyn is not native to Earth-616, and that's enough for him to be considered an alien.

In that case, you'd better call Captain Britain half-alien  his father is native to Otherworld.  Youd also better label the entire Squadron Supreme "aliens"  they're from another world, too.  Every member of the Exiles?  Aliens, by your definiton.  See what I'm getting at?

The only vast physical difference between Merlyn and Earth-616's humanity is that Merlyn is immortal.  Everything else he can do can be replicated by those with sufficient technology or magical skill.

> All in all, I think the main reason that I believe that Merlyn and Merlin are separate characters has to do with the power levels that they have been shown to possess. Merlin of Camelot is simply a wizard  Merlyn comes off as a much more powerful being. He ruled Otherworld, created the Captain Britain Corps and resurrected Brian Braddock.

Simply ruling a world isn't that big of a distinction.  Anyone can RULE provided they have a means of holding power  and there don't seem to be too many threats to the status quo on Otherworld.  The entire world seems geared towards policing the REST of the Multiverse.  Call Merlyn the head of a very very large organization.

Creating the Corps  well, heck, he's immortal, it was simply a matter of taking the time to distribute magic-power-granting artifacts, amulets, or costumes over an infinite number of worlds.  Plus he could have gotten members of his organization to help  we've seen him take a special interest in CB, but that doesn't mean that he's put in a similar personal investment for EVERY member of the Corps.

Resurrecting CB  it took a VERY long time, and involved heavy technology as well as the help of Roma.  Merlyn can't just snap his fingers and make stuff happen  sure, he can do a great many things, but they take time and effort, and careful planning.

> He has also been shown using advanced technology to accomplish some of these feats, distinguishing him from Merlin of Camelot, who has only been shown using magic.

Possibly this technology hadn't been invented during Merlin's time.  We didn't see MerLYN use technology during his pre-Camelot flashback in Excal #50

> Most importantly, Merlyn seems to have even greater power than his daughter, Roma, and that's saying a lot since Roma has been presented as being a VERY powerful being (in her role as guardian of the multiverse). Beings like Galactus and Eternity have met with her, at HER request.

That's more of a "rank" thing than anything else  Captain America has met the President, at his request, even though Cap could defeat him easily.  Why?  Because the rank of President demands importance and respect, no matter who's in the seat.

::looks at who's currently in the seat, shudders::

Ditto Roma and Eternity/Infinity  they meet with her because she's in charge of maintaining all that they are.  It's like me meeting with my lawyer or tax advisor.  Or gardener.

> One of her subordinates is Opal Luna Saturnyne, the omniversal majestrix, who has the authority to order the destruction of an entire dimension (and can do so by flipping a switch).

I wouldn't say "subordinate", although they work together.  There's a distinction between "Guardian/Sovereign of Otherworld" (the rank held by Merlyn, Roma, and now CB), and "Omniversal Majestrix"  one is in charge of Otherworld itself, and one is in charge of administrating all other dimensions.  There is some overlap, though  Merlyn had his hands all over the manipulation of specific events on Earth-616, and although CB's in Roma's old job now and Opal is still Majestrix, Roma seems to be working directly with Opal these days (see FF3 #46-49).

> There are also those Chris Claremeont stories which describe Roma as being "older than Earth, though still counted as young among her people." Statements like that tend to impress one.

Okay, so Merlyn and Roma are immortal, and old.  That's all that statement says  it doesn't really imply much else, and doesn't impress me any more than knowing that Selene or Apocalypse are long-lived.

> In comparison, Merlin of Camelot had difficulty dealing with Morgan Le Fay and was unable to prevent the fall of Camelot. From the way in which Merlyn has been presented, I got the feeling that he could have dealt with Morgan simply by snapping his fingers.

Well, Merlyn seems to be limited when he's not ON his home base of Otherworld  much of his heavy work is done by technology or serious magical effort  the spell that created the lighthouse lynchpin across the multiverse (Excal #50) took much meditation and the help of the Phoenix Force.  He could be limited to simple magic use while off Otherworld.  Also, you have to remember that Merlyn was a manipulator with a mysterious agenda  perhaps he WANTED Camelot to fall, and WANTED Morgan to win/accomplish certain things.

Anyway  like I said, I'll look more into it, and I'd be satisfied with a linking notation in the MCP  but nothing that I've encountered has led me to believe that Merlyn has been lying about being Merlin.  That said, the next time a Marvel writer gets it into his head to resurrect Merlin for an all-new ripping yarn, all this work will likely go right out the window.  But that's life in the MCP for you

-Jeph!

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Re: More Merlyn Mania!
Posted by Don Campbell on April 15, 2003 at 14:45:33:
In Reply to: More Merlyn Mania!
posted by Jeph! on April 14, 2003 at 17:34:10:

> Looking at it in that light, it COULD easily be argued (as you have been doing) that all along Merlyn has been lying.  CB didn't discover the truth about Merlyn until EXCAL #50.

> Now, if there were two versions of Merlin running around the *current* Marvel Universe  one claiming to be the mythical Merlin, one claiming to be the sovereign of Otherworld AND the mythical Merlin  I'd find it easier to separate the two.  But, currently, the whereabouts of the mythical/historical Merlin are unknown  and the claims of MerLYN must then be considered.

If the events in IRON MAN #150 and 250 are taken as being true, the mythical Merlin is currently in suspended animation somewhere, awaiting the time when King Arthur will be reborn/reincarnated.

> You say that Namor #62 shows Merlin to be pre-cataclysmic Atlantean  I say, perhaps he was just living on the island at the time of the sinking.

I did NOT say that Merlin was a pre-cataclysmic Atlantean. In NAMOR #62, the spirit of King Kammu tells Namor that, contrary to popular belief, not all of Atlantis sank beneath the ocean in the Great Catalysm/Deluge of 20,000 years ago. At least three areas of land remained above water as islands, two of them being Avalon and Ruta. The disaster which finally destroyed those islands took place MILLENNIA later, only a few years before Arthur was born. At that time, Myraddin was a young Priest of the Sun on Ruta who noticed signs that a long-foretold catastrophe was about to occur. At the request of his mentor, an unnamed Priest who was too old to flee himself, Myraddin took his mentor's daughter and granddaughter with him when he fled the islands on a merchant ship from Tingail. Soon after they left, the volcanic Ruta Island exploded and generated three great tidal waves that sank the islands forever. Arriving in Britain, Myraddin changed his name to Merlin and arranged his mentor's daughter's marriage to Gorlois, duke of the Tingail islands. The reason why Kamuu's spirit bothered telling Namor all this history was because Myraddin's mentor's daughter was Igraine, a sea-princess of Avalon, and her daughter was Morgan, later known as Morgan Le Fey, who was threatening Namor's Atlantis by trying to raise her birthplace, the island of Avalon.

> You say that MerLYN appears much more powerful than Merlin  well, much of the abilities you mention rely on Otherworld technology  perhaps none of it was invented thousands of years ago during the time of Camelot.  Also, Merlyn has a history of posing as a subservient in order to nudge events along the path he chooses.

You're assuming that Merlyn's development of technology is a relatively recent occurrence. Why? Given that he is supposed to be many thousands of years old, Merlyn could have had that advanced technology well before the time of Camelot.

> I would be satisfied with a notation in the MCP that "Merlyn of Otherworld claims to be Merlin of Camelot".  I mean, the two entries are pretty much next to each other anyway; what does it REALLY matter if they're combined or separate?  Merlyn has manipulated so many events anyway, it's probably going to be impossible to PROVE their connection one way or another  any proof I offer could be waved away as more manipulation.

I feel that the two entries should be separated simply so that any Marvel writer who uses the MCP as a reference will not assume that the whole "Merlin was always really Merlyn" idea is a fact in the Marvel Universe...and then use this unproven idea as the basis of a story involving Merlin of Camelot who is really a shape-changing immortal from another dimension. I simply want people to be aware that it MIGHT not be "true."  After all, that NAMOR story was written by Glenn Herdling, a writer who was presented as somebody with a strong sense of the continuity of the MU.

> However, getting back to the bit that started this whole thread  I feel that the character who appeared in CA #306 was, in fact, MERLYN, mainly because he recognizes and interacts with Captain Britain.  At this point in CB's history, he has not yet learned the truth about Merlyn, so it would make sense for Merlyn to appear in his "Merlin" guise, to maintain his ruse.

I accept that the "Merlin" who appeared in CA #306 was in fact Merlyn. I mainly doubted it because he seemed to recognize Modred as his former almost-apprentice. However, if Merlyn was, as you suggested, maintaining his ruse of being "Merlin", then he would naturally pretend to know Modred even if they'd never met. Besides, in CA #306 "Merlin" doesn't show up until AFTER Modred is defeated and unconscious (thereby preventing Modred from blurting out, "Hey, I wanted you to connect me with Merlin. Who the heck is this joker?"). Actually, now that I think about it, I don't recell any story that mentions them ever meeting. The whole reason that Modred became cursed in the first place was because he wanted to avoid becoming Merlin's apprentice because of what he had HEARD about him. Anyway, QUASAR #11 showed Modred escaping from Otherworld so it must have been Merlyn who took custody of him in CA #306.

> And, sadly, that's the nature of serial fiction.  Some stories are sequels to others  and sometimes, you simply can't read the original story, either because it's too expensive for you, or because it was published in another country.  In this case, the CB TPB establishes Merlin as the one who gave CB his power, and the one who died, leaving Guardianship of Otherworld to his daughter Roma.  It links him visually to Merlin the Magician, but doesn't spell it out explicitly.

Okay, I had no idea that the CB2 magazine was imported to the US. I've certainly never seen any copies in my 20-plus years of collecting comics. As for flashbacks/recaps from the CP TPB, which I do have, I recall mentions of Merlin as the one who gave BB his powers but, as you say, it doesn't spell out the "Merlin is really Merlyn" connection explicitly. This leaves we readers who have only read US Marvel comics (and KNOW that the mythical Merlin is currently sleeping in suspended animation) to assume that this "Merlin" is another character entirely.

> And Modred appears, as I mentioned above, as a supporting villain in the HC run.  I'll have to look closer to see if Merlin remembers/recognizes Modred as well, or if it's just Modred attacking MerLYN, mistaking him for Merlin (considering that he's posing as him at the time).

You say that Modred battled Merlyn in several issues of Hulk Comic. Are you sure that it was Modred? Or could it have been MoRdred? According to the Appendix to the Handbook of the Marvel Universe web-site, the character you're describing was one of the Evil Walkers, agents of Necromon, and his name was properly spelt Mordred. The web-site says that this Modred/Mordred MAY have been the same as Mordred the Evil, King Arthur's evil son/nephew who battled the original Black Knight and who has appeared in DEFENDERS #11 and in the BLACK KNIGHT limited series.

As I've said before, never having read those UK stories, I must rely upon the commentaries of others who have read them. Here are two quotes from the Evil Walkers web page:  "Mordred, usually spelled Modred in this story, also known as the Lore-Master, was sent to Earth by Necromon to slay the Black Knight."

"note: I'm going on the assumption that this Mordred is the same as Mordred the Evil, the illegitimate son of King Arthur and the nephew of Morgan le Fay, @ Black Knight comics#1, Marvel Super-Heroes I#16. Unconfirmed.. It's not clear, and it gets more confusing when the description of the Mordred of the Walkers overlaps with that of Modred the Mystic (this info is erroneous)."

> I tend to take the events of HC as relative canon, despite Merlyn's admitted manipulation  his style of manipulation is not to FALSIFY events, but to nudge factors so that specific events occur.  Therefore, although he may have altered the shape of his castle, and his name and appearance, between the time Captain UK was there and the time Captain Britain was there, we can rest assured that the events of the battle *actually occurred* -- an important distinction to make, considering we're talking about events such as the resurrection of King Arthur.  Although Merlyn may have forced the situation, I maintain that it actually DID happen and was not simply an illusion or impostor.

I'm not saying that the events depicted in those HC issues didn't happen, just that the back-story may not have been EXACTLY as it was presented. For example, if Otherworld is truly an alternate Earth, might it not have had its own version of King Arthur and Camelot? Might not Merlyn have been the Merlin of THAT Camelot and merely claimed that he moved it from Earth-616 for Brian's benefit? (Or that he moved it from Earth-238 for Captain UK's benefit?) Actually, I have no real problem with the idea of Merlyn moving Camelot to Otherworld or even resurrecting King Arthur---as long as it is clear that he was not the "real" Merlin who lived there and served Arthur (and is currently in suspended animation). I would be VERY happy with the idea that the wizard Merlin of Camelot was perhaps an agent of Merlyn of Otherworld and that Merlyn stepped into his agent's identity after Merlin went into suspended animation. This explanation would support BOTH the UK and US versions of Merlin without contradicting EITHER of them. And if Merlin of Camelot was BORN Myraddin of Ruta, his becoming an agent of Merlyn might be the reason why he changed his name. And if Merlin was Merlyn's agent, that would explain how Merlyn might have known enough about Merlin's life to pose as him among those who knew the wizard best, like the resurrected King Arthur.

By the way, assuming that Otherworld is just another alternate Earth, was it ever stated for certain that Merlyn was BORN there? According to EXCALIBUR #45, Otherworld is the dimension in which the cosmic energy matrix was the strongest and most visible. In EXCALIBUR #50, Merlyn claimed that he leapt into the newly-created energy matrix and "was swept across the multiverse" before he "mastered the energy matrix and established Otherworld." Presumably he would have chosen the dimension in which his power source was the strongest to be his base of operations, not necessarily his home dimension.

> > Also, even if Otherworld IS just an alternate Earth, Merlyn is not native to Earth-616, and that's enough for him to be considered an alien.

> In that case, you'd better call Captain Britain half-alien  his father is native to Otherworld.  Youd also better label the entire Squadron Supreme "aliens"  they're from another world, too.  Every member of the Exiles?  Aliens, by your definiton.  See what I'm getting at?

I agree completely. I'm using the word "alien" to refer to someone who is not born in a particular place (ie. a non-native). In this instance, the place under consideration is not just the planet Earth but the planet Earth-616. So, as you say, I DO consider the Squadron Supreme and Exiles as aliens -- human, but not native to Earth-616. And, of course, the Braddock children are "half human" -- as the Mastermind computer pointed out to them in the CB TPB.

> Well, Merlyn seems to be limited when he's not ON his home base of Otherworld  much of his heavy work is done by technology or serious magical effort  the spell that created the lighthouse lynchpin across the multiverse (Excal #50) took much meditation and the help of the Phoenix Force.  He could be limited to simple magic use while off Otherworld.  Also, you have to remember that Merlyn was a manipulator with a mysterious agenda  perhaps he WANTED Camelot to fall, and WANTED Morgan to win/accomplish certain things.

Good point, and I agree...and I still want Merlin of Camelot and Merlyn of Otherworld to be different people with separate MCP entries.

> Anyway  like I said, I'll look more into it, and I'd be satisfied with a linking notation in the MCP  but nothing that I've encountered has led me to believe that Merlyn has been lying about being Merlin.  That said, the next time a Marvel writer gets it into his head to resurrect Merlin for an all-new ripping yarn, all this work will likely go right out the window.  But that's life in the MCP for you

Sadly true.

Don Campbell 

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Re: More Merlyn Mania!
Posted by Russ Chappell on April 16, 2003 at 18:34:18:
In Reply to: Re: More Merlyn Mania!
posted by Don Campbell on April 15, 2003 at 14:45:33:

> > You say that MerLYN appears much more powerful than Merlin  well, much of the abilities you mention rely on Otherworld technology  perhaps none of it was invented thousands of years ago during the time of Camelot.  Also, Merlyn has a history of posing as a subservient in order to nudge events along the path he chooses.

> You're assuming that Merlyn's development of technology is a relatively recent occurrence. Why? Given that he is supposed to be many thousands of years old, Merlyn could have had that advanced technology well before the time of Camelot.

One point. I don't think what Jeph is saying here is an *assumption*, so much as a *proposed theory* which fits the known facts.

Carry on.

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Re: More Merlyn Mania!
Posted by Loki on April 17, 2003 at 05:44:09:
In Reply to: Re: More Merlyn Mania!
posted by Don Campbell on April 15, 2003 at 14:45:33:

Okay, time to add my two pence worths to this debate:

> If the events in IRON MAN #150 and 250 are taken as being true, the mythical Merlin is currently in suspended animation somewhere, awaiting the time when King Arthur will be reborn/reincarnated.

IF they were true. Rule one to remember with MerLYN - he lies. If (and remember I say if) the Merlin in Iron Man #150 and #250 is MerLYN, then he is totally capable of lying through his teeth to Iron Man and faking the whole situation.

> In NAMOR #62, the spirit of King Kammu tells Namor that, 

And for that matter, lying to King Kamuu, so that eventually his spirit gets the story wrong too.

> > You say that MerLYN appears much more powerful than Merlin  

APPEARS to be - it's not really clear just how powerful MerLYN really is - there's a lot of smoke and mirrors going on. If he really was as powerful as some people imagine, then he would have dealt with the threat of Mad Jim Jaspers himself, not spent years building up a champion to take him on (a champion who, it should be noted, wasn't powerful enough to do the job in the end - Jaspers was effectively defeated by his own creation, not CB)

> > I would be satisfied with a notation in the MCP that "Merlyn of Otherworld claims to be Merlin of Camelot".  

For my money, Merlin of Camelot is MerLYN of Otherworld, as there have been too many instances tying the two together, and none that specifically state them as separate entities (as there have been with the Maha Yogi). Any discrepancies, they easily come down to MerLYN being a consumate deceiver - nothing we've seen of Merlin can be taken at face value.

> Okay, I had no idea that the CB2 magazine was imported to the US. I've certainly never seen any copies in my 20-plus years of collecting comics. 

I must admit that I take a bit of umbridge at the suggestion that just because it was published in the UK and not the US that it doesn't count as being as valid. There's lots of titles from Marvel I haven't read because of time and money constraints - but I don't discount them. The UK Captain Britain stories have been validated too often in the US titles to treat them as anything other than valid too.

> > I tend to take the events of HC as relative canon, despite Merlyn's admitted manipulation  his style of manipulation is not to FALSIFY events, but to nudge factors so that specific events occur.  Therefore, although he may have altered the shape of his castle, and his name and appearance, between the time Captain UK was there and the time Captain Britain was there, we can rest assured that the events of the battle *actually occurred* -- an important distinction to make, considering we're talking about events such as the resurrection of King Arthur.  Although Merlyn may have forced the situation, I maintain that it actually DID happen and was not simply an illusion or impostor.

I agree - the events did happen. CB's Merlin did not use some sort of elaborate illusion to stage the entire thing just to train up Captain Britain. Much easier to employ a real problem. And Arthur was resurrected, as we see him at MerLYN's funeral. Of course it could be King Arthur-Otherworld, rather than King Arthur-616.

But I really don't like the term "relative canon". That comes across like the UK stories are worth less than the US ones, and only become valid once a US writer or title confirms them.

> I'm not saying that the events depicted in those HC issues didn't happen, just that the back-story may not have been EXACTLY as it was presented. For example, if Otherworld is truly an alternate Earth, might it not have had its own version of King Arthur and Camelot? Might not Merlyn have been the Merlin of THAT Camelot and merely claimed that he moved it from Earth-616 for Brian's benefit? (Or that he moved it from Earth-238 for Captain UK's benefit?) Actually, I have no real problem with the idea of Merlyn moving Camelot to Otherworld or even resurrecting King Arthur---as long as it is clear that he was not the "real" Merlin who lived there and served Arthur (and is currently in suspended animation). I would be VERY happy with the idea that the wizard Merlin of Camelot was perhaps an agent of Merlyn of Otherworld and that Merlyn stepped into his agent's identity after Merlin went into suspended animation. This explanation would support BOTH the UK and US versions of Merlin without contradicting EITHER of them. And if Merlin of Camelot was BORN Myraddin of Ruta, his becoming an agent of Merlyn might be the reason why he changed his name. And if Merlin was Merlyn's agent, that would explain how Merlyn might have known enough about Merlin's life to pose as him among those who knew the wizard best, like the resurrected King Arthur.

I don't like this suggestion of MerLYN not being the "real" Merlin of Camelot. Way too much supporting evidence that he is, some contradictions that conflict with this (which should be taken with a pinch of salt, considering how much of a manipulator MerLYN is), nothing that makes a point of specifically stating he isn't.

However, if you want to say they are not one and the same, and yet somehow tie in the connections between the two, then here's another theory for you that fits all the current facts (only a theory I hasten to add). The idea comes from Cobweb, another of the Alan Moore creations dotted through the Jaspers Warp saga. Cobweb was a telepath and a fairly unique precog. Her precognition worked by her being in constant telepathic contact with herself, all the way up and down her own timeline. Perhaps MerLYN / Merlin is similarly in contact with all his own counterparts across the multiverse (ever since he threw himself into the "cosmic energy matrix" and "was swept across the multiverse"), all of the counterparts acting as part of his schemes, with the Otherworld version acting as the command and co-ordination point. The Merlin who is in suspended animation according to Iron Man is the Earth-616 Merlin. MerLYN can easily pass himself off as that Merlin, because they are the same guy for all intents and purposes, and MerLYN is aware of everything Merlin did (but not necessarily vice versa). He can swap forms into that Merlin too, when he wants. It would also explain the two King Arthur's - the one seen to be resurrected in Otherworld is the Otherworld counterpart to the Arthur whose tomb the Black Knight visits in our world. Both are the real Arthur however. And it would explain how MerLYN could fake his own death, right down to cremating the corpse inside a star at the climax of the funeral - he sacrificed the body of a counterpart.

A little bit of evidence that supports this is the way the various members of the Captain Britain Corps (an inaccurate term in-and-of itself - it could also be the Captain UK Corps, or the Hauptmanne Englander Corps, etc) seem to be lightly connected across the multiverse. Captain UK sensed the death of Captain Britain at the hands of the Fury (admittedly he died over her open grave too), and Captain Britain sensed the deaths of the other members of the Corps in his dreams, prior to Excalibur Vol.II They are all connected through the energy matrix that powers them, so why not Merlin/MerLYN?

>  That said, the next time a Marvel writer gets it into his head to resurrect Merlin for an all-new ripping yarn, all this work will likely go right out the window.  But that's life in the MCP for you

But of course, there is already another Merlin who has popped his head into the fringes of the Marvel Universe, complete with his own King Arthur...

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Re: More Merlyn Mania!
Posted by Don Campbell on April 17, 2003 at 11:29:05:
In Reply to: e: More Merlyn Mania!
posted by Loki on April 17, 2003 at 05:44:09:

Just a few things to say in response.

> IF they were true. Rule one to remember with MerLYN - he lies. If (and remember I say if) the Merlin in Iron Man #150 and #250 is MerLYN, then he is totally capable of lying through his teeth to Iron Man and faking the whole situation.

> And for that matter, lying to King Kamuu, so that eventually his spirit gets the story wrong too.

Absolutely right. MerLYN could have lied to King Arthur (not Iron Man) about going into suspended animation at the decreee of the goddess Nimue but I'm not sure HOW he could have deceived Kamuu's spirit about his origin. After all, aren't ghosts supposed to have some supernatural ability to know things that they didn't know in life? Maybe Kamuu was just hanging around the afterlife with nothing better to do than appear in the dreams of those who succeeded him as king of Atlantis. First, to his namesake Kamuu thousands of years ago and then, to Namor. Of course, it's possible that the whole dream was a telepathic illusion sent by Merlyn.

> I must admit that I take a bit of umbridge at the suggestion that just because it was published in the UK and not the US that it doesn't count as being as valid. There's lots of titles from Marvel I haven't read because of time and money constraints - but I don't discount them. The UK Captain Britain stories have been validated too often in the US titles to treat them as anything other than valid too.

I did NOT, at any time, suggest that stories published only in the UK were not valid. I just said that I had never seen any of them. I should have added that, because much of the info in UK Captain Britain stories has not appeared in the US Marvel titles, many of the "facts" presented in those stories took me by surprise.

> But I really don't like the term "relative canon". That comes across like the UK stories are worth less than the US ones, and only become valid once a US writer or title confirms them.

On the other hand, if two US stories establish something about a character and a UK story published in between them contradicts them, doesn't that mean that the UK writers have chosen to ignore the US stories by not confirming them?

> However, if you want to say they are not one and the same, and yet somehow tie in the connections between the two, then here's another theory for you that fits all the current facts (only a theory I hasten to add). The idea comes from Cobweb, another of the Alan Moore creations dotted through the Jaspers Warp saga. Cobweb was a telepath and a fairly unique precog. Her precognition worked by her being in constant telepathic contact with herself, all the way up and down her own timeline. Perhaps MerLYN / Merlin is similarly in contact with all his own counterparts across the multiverse (ever since he threw himself into the "cosmic energy matrix" and "was swept across the multiverse"), all of the counterparts acting as part of his schemes, with the Otherworld version acting as the command and co-ordination point. The Merlin who is in suspended animation according to Iron Man is the Earth-616 Merlin. MerLYN can easily pass himself off as that Merlin, because they are the same guy for all intents and purposes, and MerLYN is aware of everything Merlin did (but not necessarily vice versa). He can swap forms into that Merlin too, when he wants. It would also explain the two King Arthur's - the one seen to be resurrected in Otherworld is the Otherworld counterpart to the Arthur whose tomb the Black Knight visits in our world. Both are the real Arthur however. And it would explain how MerLYN could fake his own death, right down to cremating the corpse inside a star at the climax of the funeral - he sacrificed the body of a counterpart.

Your theory is interesting but I can't quite accept it. My main objection has to do with the relative lifespans of Merlin and Merlyn. If they were, as you suggest, dimensional counterparts of each other, then they would have been the same age, like twins. However, Merlyn is supposed to be an immortal who is many thousands of years old (even if he looks young) while Merlin, if his origin in NAMOR is to be believed, aged to an old man like normal humans do and only survived into the 21st Century via suspended animation. Of course, maybe the NAMOR origin is false and maybe Merlyn has some sort of "magical face lift" spell going on there. However, your idea that there is some sort of telepathic connection between Merlin and Merlyn is interesting but I don't think it requires them being counterparts.  If Merlyn chose Myraddin to be his agent on Earth (presumably so he could keep an eye on things without have to constantly pop over to Earth-616 himself), then Merlyn could have easily cast a spell that gave him access to his agent's memories. Or, given that Merlyn also used advanced technology, he could have implanted some device in Merlin's brain that uploaded his experiences to Merlyn. Either way would allow Merlyn to easily pose aa Merlin after the latter went into suspended animation. And the fact that Merlyn was a manipulative control freak makes the idea of him employing such methods more likely, doesn't it?

> A little bit of evidence that supports this is the way the various members of the Captain Britain Corps (an inaccurate term in-and-of itself - it could also be the Captain UK Corps, or the Hauptmanne Englander Corps, etc) seem to be lightly connected across the multiverse. Captain UK sensed the death of Captain Britain at the hands of the Fury (admittedly he died over her open grave too), and Captain Britain sensed the deaths of the other members of the Corps in his dreams, prior to Excalibur Vol.II They are all connected through the energy matrix that powers them, so why not Merlin/MerLYN?

I'd say that those were not examples of some innate connection between counterparts but of some deliberate plan. As I recall, Merlyn was manipulating Captain UK to get her to participate in the fight with the Fury, so causing her to "sense" Captain Britain's death could have been part of his manipulations, to get her revved up to fight. And in EXCALIBUR Vol. II, didn't Mastermind consider Brian to be his failure of a brother whom he WANTED to confront? It may have sent those dreams to get him to come to Otherworld.

Speaking of the Captain Britain Corps, I have a question that's a bit off-topic here. Many of the CB counterparts across the multiverse turned out to be counterparts of Brian Braddock as well and some of them had siblings who were counterparts of Betsy and James. This implies that they all had EXACTLY the same genetic code which in turn implies that their parents were counterparts as well. The problem lies in tha fact that "James Braddock" was actually one of Merlyn's chosen guard who came from Otherworld and, as such, there was only ONE of him...so how could his Otherworld genes end up in so many CB counterparts on so many different Earths? One possibility is that he arrived on Earth at some point before it began diverging. This might explain counterparts like Hauptmanne Englander from an Earth where the Nazis won World War II but there are many other counterparts from Earths that diverged centuries ago. Captain Marshall came from an Earth where magic was dominant over science and Crusader-X was from a world where the British Empire still ruled since the failure of the American Revolution. I suppose that, if he had been granted an extended lifespan by Merlyn, "James" could still have arrived on those Earths before they diverged...but then there are Earths like that of Opul Lun Sat-yr-nin, which seems to have a Sun that is different than our own but still has a Kaptain Briton (Byron Bra-Dhok) who was physically identical to Brian Braddock-616. The only other possiblity that I can see is that when Merlyn sent "James" from Otherworld, he was somehow "split" into various counterparts, one for each of the already-diverged Earths. Presumably it was Merlyn who caused this splitting effect, either with or without the knowledge of "James." This would seem to be the only possible theory that makes sense---except for the fact that nothing like this has even been hinted at in any CB story I've ever read.

By the way, how did Captain UK get her powers? Was she the daughter of a "James Braddock" counterpart whose mother never married him (hence the name Linda McQuillan)? Or did Merlyn send out other agents besides "James" to father (or mother) children with the Otherworld genes that could accces the cosmic energy matrix's power? Or did Merlyn bestow the Captain UK powers on her some other way entirely? Does anyone know?

> But of course, there is already another Merlin who has popped his head into the fringes of the Marvel Universe, complete with his own King Arthur...

Okay, that's news to me. Where exactly did these new versions of Merlin and King Arthur appear?

Don Campbell

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Re: More Merlyn Mania!
Posted by Loki on April 17, 2003 at 13:59:50:
In Reply to: Re: More Merlyn Mania!
posted by Don Campbell on April 17, 2003 at 11:29:05:

> but I'm not sure HOW he could have deceived Kamuu's spirit about his origin. After all, aren't ghosts supposed to have some supernatural ability to know things that they didn't know in life?

Not necessarily. Unless they were imbued with "cosmic awareness" in life, there's no reason to believe they would gain it in death. 

> Maybe Kamuu was just hanging around the afterlife with nothing better to do than appear in the dreams of those who succeeded him as king of Atlantis.

Hey, when you are around for all eternity, you need a hobby! 

> Of course, it's possible that the whole dream was a telepathic illusion sent by Merlyn.

Could be, although why he'd want to play with Namor's head like that is beyond me. Mind you, most of his reasons for doing stuff remained obscure until the plans were closer to fruition.

> I did NOT, at any time, suggest that stories published only in the UK were not valid. I just said that I had never seen any of them. I should have added that, because much of the info in UK Captain Britain stories has not appeared in the US Marvel titles, many of the "facts" presented in those stories took me by surprise.

My apology. Didn't mean to snap at you. It's just I've seen too many people (Americans all) who discount anything that was done outside of America. And it is hard to judge stuff when you haven't seen it.

> > But I really don't like the term "relative canon". That comes across like the UK stories are worth less than the US ones, and only become valid once a US writer or title confirms them.

> On the other hand, if two US stories establish something about a character and a UK story published in between them contradicts them, doesn't that mean that the UK writers have chosen to ignore the US stories by not confirming them?

Yep, it does, and it makes the UK writer just as bad. I have a problem with any writer who comes along and stamps all over continuity, not because they came up with a really great idea and had to consciously choose to change things, but simply because they didn't even TRy to do their homework. If you know nothing about a character's history, don't write about it. In any other field of writing, the writer is expected to have done some basic research (not that they always do), but in comics some writers seem to have the attitude "it's just comics, it doesn't matter" - and if you have that attitude you shouldn't be writing comics.

> Your theory is interesting but I can't quite accept it.

Like I said, I prefer the simple, Merlin=MerLYN. But if you want other theories, there's plenty of possibilities.

> My main objection has to do with the relative lifespans of Merlin and Merlyn. If they were, as you suggest, dimensional counterparts of each other, then they would have been the same age, like twins.

Not necessarily. Divergences can occur. Lets take the X-Men of the mainstream comics and compare them to the X-Men of the Ultimate line. Not all the counterparts there are the same age.

But I do agree that Merlin could also have been MerLYN's agent, and the latter could easily have made copies of his experiences so as to make later imitation easier.

> I'd say that those were not examples of some innate connection between counterparts but of some deliberate plan. As I recall, Merlyn was manipulating Captain UK to get her to participate in the fight with the Fury, so causing her to "sense" Captain Britain's death could have been part of his manipulations, to get her revved up to fight. And in EXCALIBUR Vol. II, didn't Mastermind consider Brian to be his failure of a brother whom he WANTED to confront? It may have sent those dreams to get him to come to Otherworld.

Totally valid points. Those were special occasions. But it does prove the "minds connected across the multiverse" idea is possible, even when the people are not counterparts.

> Speaking of the Captain Britain Corps, I have a question that's a bit off-topic here. Many of the CB counterparts across the multiverse turned out to be counterparts of Brian Braddock as well and some of them had siblings who were counterparts of Betsy and James. This implies that they all had EXACTLY the same genetic code which in turn implies that their parents were counterparts as well. The problem lies in tha fact that "James Braddock" was actually one of Merlyn's chosen guard who came from Otherworld and, as such, there was only ONE of him...so how could his Otherworld genes end up in so many CB counterparts on so many different Earths?

James Braddock himself may have had counterparts across the multiverse, and the Earth-616 one was replaced on 616 by the Otherworld one at Merlyn's behest. Merlyn clearly sensed Jasper approaching, and could well have decided to furnish the 616 Captain with a "stronger" lineage. That's probably a simpler explanation than "splitting" James Braddock.

Actually it should also be noted that at the time of Merlyn's funeral, there only appeared to be two Brian Braddock's in the Corps: Captain Britain and Kaptain Briton. No others were (obviously) visible at the funeral, which was attended by most, if not all, of the Corps. And if there had been other counterparts available, why would Kaptain Briton have targeted Brian all of a sudden? I'd suggest that up to that point there were no other Brian Braddock counterparts in the Corps. Not all members of the Corps are counterparts - Captain Granbreton was killed and replaced, Captain UK is first referred to as a "he" by a cop on Earth-238, suggesting that Linda McQuillan may have been a recent incumbant in the job at the time of the Fury's attack, and "our" Captain was replaced for a time by Betsy. The job does get transferred to new people every so often, so it's not impossible that Roma picked some Braddock counterparts to replace other Captain's who had died or otherwise retired. He's clearly the best model available. :)

> By the way, how did Captain UK get her powers? Was she the daughter of a "James Braddock" counterpart whose mother never married him (hence the name Linda McQuillan)?

McQuillan is possibly her married name - she was a widow when we first met her. But most likely she just isn't related at all. I envision Merlyn's choices for Captain membership being a lot like the old Mission Impossible pre-title sequence - y'know, Merlyn sitting round a coffee table with a folder of potential "agents", trying to decide which one to employ for this alternate reality. In other words, for each world, he has a set of potentials, and if one is killed or quits, there is another one ready to be "activated".

But there is no clear origin for Captain UK. The first reference made is that "He disappeared some time ago". Either people couldn't tell Linda was a woman (unlikely - her costume was VERY snug), or Earth-238 might have had a male Captain UK as well. Looking at how poorly Linda handled the Fury's attack on the heroes of her world, I'd guess she was fairly inexperienced (hence the deaths of older and more established heroes shaking her up so much), and may have taken over from a man who had held the title before her. Check her entry on the Appendix to the Marvel Universe site.

www.marunapp.com/Appendix/captinuk.htm

> > But of course, there is already another Merlin who has popped his head into the fringes of the Marvel Universe, complete with his own King Arthur...

> Okay, that's news to me. Where exactly did these new versions of Merlin and King Arthur appear?

Cheating slightly here, and this is very much on the fringe of the Marvel Universe. In the TV show Doctor Who, the Doctor is informed that a future incarnation of himself will one day end up in another dimension, where he will take on the role of Merlin, and help Arthur build Camelot. Which wouldn't bother anyone in the Marvel universe, except that Merlin met the Doctor more than once in his Marvel produced comic strip in Doctor Who Magazine...and this version of Merlin is among the parade of incarnations MerLYN adopts when he shapeshifts in front of Roma immediately after rebuilding the dead Captain Britain.

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Re: More Merlyn Mania!
Posted by Don Campbell on April 18, 2003 at 10:44:47:
In Reply to: Re: More Merlyn Mania!
posted by Loki on April 17, 2003 at 13:59:50:

> My apology. Didn't mean to snap at you. It's just I've seen too many people (Americans all) who discount anything that was done outside of America. And it is hard to judge stuff when you haven't seen it.

Actually, I'm a Canadian and proud of it (in a quiet, self-effacing sort of way).

> I have a problem with any writer who comes along and stamps all over continuity, not because they came up with a really great idea and had to consciously choose to change things, but simply because they didn't even TRy to do their homework. If you know nothing about a character's history, don't write about it. In any other field of writing, the writer is expected to have done some basic research (not that they always do), but in comics some writers seem to have the attitude "it's just comics, it doesn't matter" - and if you have that attitude you shouldn't be writing comics.

I agree 100 percent. Reading stories written by people who haven't bothered to adhere to an established continuity affects me the same way that the sound of fingernails on a blackboard affects other people. I don't know which is worse: writers who haven't bothered to do the research or those who know the back-story but just choose to use their own, "better" version. Of course, if the writer trying to rewrite history bothers to provide a good explanation for why the previous history was wrong, that can (sometimes) turn out okay (or even better) but that's a rare occurrence. The retcons preformed in the HELLCAT limited series are a good example...of what should NOT be done.

> Not necessarily. Divergences can occur. Lets take the X-Men of the mainstream comics and compare them to the X-Men of the Ultimate line. Not all the counterparts there are the same age.

It's true that we have seen some Earths where time ran faster than on others. If I recall correctly, the Earth where Kylun grew up is much older with its Sun has swollen into a red giant and yet its version of Satyrnyne was still a young girl while the Queen Mother on Captain Marshall's Earth was at least middle-aged. Still, I find it hard to accept as large an age gap as there appears to be between Merlyn and Merlin.

> James Braddock himself may have had counterparts across the multiverse, and the Earth-616 one was replaced on 616 by the Otherworld one at Merlyn's behest. Merlyn clearly sensed Jasper approaching, and could well have decided to furnish the 616 Captain with a "stronger" lineage. That's probably a simpler explanation than "splitting" James Braddock.

I hadn't thought of that possibility but it makes sense. In EXCALIBUR #47, Roma mentions something about Brian being the strongest of the CB Corps because of the powers that Merlyn bestowed on his father that lived on in him. And you're right that Merlyn had a special destiny in mind for Brian. Not only was he preparing Brian to face the Fury, he was also setting things up for the imminent contraction of the energy matrix that was his personal power source and the inevitable return of his greatest rival, Necrom. He needed somebody to repair the matrix for him because he feared that Necrom would attack him if he did it himself.

> Actually it should also be noted that at the time of Merlyn's funeral, there only appeared to be two Brian Braddock's in the Corps: Captain Britain and Kaptain Briton. No others were (obviously) visible at the funeral, which was attended by most, if not all, of the Corps. And if there had been other counterparts available, why would Kaptain Briton have targeted Brian all of a sudden? I'd suggest that up to that point there were no other Brian Braddock counterparts in the Corps. Not all members of the Corps are counterparts - Captain Granbreton was killed and replaced, Captain UK is first referred to as a "he" by a cop on Earth-238, suggesting that Linda McQuillan may have been a recent incumbant in the job at the time of the Fury's attack, and "our" Captain was replaced for a time by Betsy. The job does get transferred to new people every so often, so it's not impossible that Roma picked some Braddock counterparts to replace other Captain's who had died or otherwise retired. He's clearly the best model available. :)

Most of the other Brian Braddock counterparts I remember were encountered during the Cross-Time Caper. Aside from Captain Britain, Kaptain Briton and Hauptmann Englande, there were Captain Marshall (deceased), Crusader-X and the Lord High Justicer, plus the one from the world where Meggan took over as CB after her Brian died in a super-hero war that devastated the planet.

> McQuillan is possibly her married name - she was a widow when we first met her.

I just had to mention that one of my favourite scenes in the CB TPB is when Linda was reunited with her dead husband, Rick---after Roma reached back in time and brought him to Otherworld to save him from the Fury. That was a terrific scene that showed that Roma had a humanity that Merlyn lacked.

> Cheating slightly here, and this is very much on the fringe of the Marvel Universe. In the TV show Doctor Who, the Doctor is informed that a future incarnation of himself will one day end up in another dimension, where he will take on the role of Merlin, and help Arthur build Camelot. Which wouldn't bother anyone in the Marvel universe, except that Merlin met the Doctor more than once in his Marvel produced comic strip in Doctor Who Magazine...and this version of Merlin is among the parade of incarnations MerLYN adopts when he shapeshifts in front of Roma immediately after rebuilding the dead Captain Britain.

That's a relief. I really have no idea how much "in continuity" anything that appears in the Doctor Who titles are considered to be. How do those in the know account for characters who appeared in both the Doctor Who stories and the Captain Britain/Excalibur stories? Are they considered to be the same beings, even those who are tied to the Doctor? Or are there two sets of those characters, one set who appeared in the DW stories and another, "mainstream" version whose origins and histories do NOT involve anything connected with the Doctor?

Don Campbell

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Re: More Merlyn Mania!
Posted by Loki on April 18, 2003 at 13:58:05:
In Reply to: Re: More Merlyn Mania!
posted by Don Campbell on April 18, 2003 at 10:44:47:

> I agree 100 percent. Reading stories written by people who haven't bothered to adhere to an established continuity affects me the same way that the sound of fingernails on a blackboard affects other people. I don't know which is worse: writers who haven't bothered to do the research or those who know the back-story but just choose to use their own, "better" version.

I don't mind if the conscious retconner is trying to "patch up" some botch another writer created. And certain writers are very adept at taking inane stuff other writers created and transforming them into something sensible (Alan Davis and Peter David, imho, for example). But it is still a risky proposition, as too often the change just makes thing worse.

> Of course, if the writer trying to rewrite history bothers to provide a good explanation for why the previous history was wrong, that can (sometimes) turn out okay (or even better) but that's a rare occurrence. The retcons preformed in the HELLCAT limited series are a good example...of what should NOT be done.

Totally agree - what a mess! And now we need another writer to step in and show Daimon Hellstrom laughing his head off, and telling Gargoyle, "Well, she bought it all. Can't believe Patsy is so gullible as to think I'm the son of Satannish!" (much like James Hudnall had someone undo Bill Mantlo's awful idea that Northstar and Aurora were half-elves from Asgard, with a simple "Loki lied" comment).

Another example of sucking retcon is the current "black Captain America" prototype mini-series. You want to tell us there was racism back then, fine, but don't take the iconic image of Captain America and sully it like that. Besides, it doesn't make sense to mistreat the prototypes that way - if you succeed in turning one into a super-soldier, you've potentially created a powerful enemy. Bad writing.

> It's true that we have seen some Earths where time ran faster than on others. If I recall correctly, the Earth where Kylun grew up is much older with its Sun has swollen into a red giant and yet its version of Satyrnyne was still a young girl while the Queen Mother on Captain Marshall's Earth was at least middle-aged. Still, I find it hard to accept as large an age gap as there appears to be between Merlyn and Merlin.

I understand your reservations, but the point is, it is still possible.

> Most of the other Brian Braddock counterparts I remember were encountered during the Cross-Time Caper. Aside from Captain Britain, Kaptain Briton and Hauptmann Englande, there were Captain Marshall (deceased), Crusader-X and the Lord High Justicer, plus the one from the world where Meggan took over as CB after her Brian died in a super-hero war that devastated the planet.

Exactly - if Kaptain Briton had that many choices of who to replace, why go for CB-616? Whenever we've seen the Corps in any of their appearances we see very few duplicates, EXCEPT for Brian Braddock, which suggests it isn't common for Roma and Merlyn to pick the same person's counterparts from each reality. I still think that after the funeral on Otherworld Roma started using Brian's counterparts whenever a Captain needed replacing. Hauptmanne Englande for example could easily be a replacement for the similarly Nazi Kommandant Englander who did attend the funeral (and hasn't been seen since).

> I just had to mention that one of my favourite scenes in the CB TPB is when Linda was reunited with her dead husband, Rick---after Roma reached back in time and brought him to Otherworld to save him from the Fury. That was a terrific scene that showed that Roma had a humanity that Merlyn lacked.

Perhaps lost rather than lacked, but you are right, Roma has more compassion than her father. He cares, but in an abstract way. Pawns are expendable to him. I love the way Alan Davis had the team return home at the end of the whole Necrom saga, with CB swearing he will never again be manipulated...as the group walk over paving stones that look just like a giant chess board. Yeeeaaah, suuure you won't Cap.

> That's a relief. I really have no idea how much "in continuity" anything that appears in the Doctor Who titles are considered to be. How do those in the know account for characters who appeared in both the Doctor Who stories and the Captain Britain/Excalibur stories? Are they considered to be the same beings, even those who are tied to the Doctor? Or are there two sets of those characters, one set who appeared in the DW stories and another, "mainstream" version whose origins and histories do NOT involve anything connected with the Doctor?

There are very few characters (really only Merlin) who turn appear in both Excalibur and Doctor Who stories. However the Doctor has interacted a number of times with the Marvel Universe, mainly with Death's Head. There's a full account of all of them on the Marvel Appendix site - www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/doctorwh.htm

The Doctor clearly does "exist" in some capacity as far as the Marvel universe is concerned, as does his reality with all its characters (Death's Head interacted with several beings from it).

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Re: More Merlyn Mania!
Posted by Jeph! on April 17, 2003 at 15:15:36:
In Reply to: Re: More Merlyn Mania!
posted by Don Campbell on April 17, 2003 at 11:29:05:

Still gathering evidence from the "Hulk Comic" books...

It's starting to look, Don, like your theory about MerLYN being the "Merlin" of Otherworld is accurate.  Nowhere in here am I finding anything about Camelot being MOVED to "Otherworld" -- Merlyn, CB, and the Black Knight simply treat Otherworld as a distant, magical land that they have to quest to, and Camelot (and Arthur's burial ground) is in that realm.

Now that "Otherworld" has been established as another DIMENSION (and, in the HC books, they reach it by finding and entering a massive door, so it's almost played as another dimension there too), the fact that Arthur is buried there -- and was resurrected there, and now lives there -- need not contradict the assertation in H4H #2 that Arthur still sleeps, awaiting a spiritual reincarnation.  Because the Arthur that was resurrected was the Arthur of Otherworld.

I'm still keeping an open mind about the Merlin thing -- but this theory could solve the ARTHUR thing.  (Did H4H #2 actually SAY where Arthur was buried?)

Also: how long ago was the time of Camelot?  Do we have a date?  Was it hundreds of years ago?  Or thousands?

> Many of the CB counterparts across the multiverse turned out to be counterparts of Brian Braddock ... the problem lies in tha fact that "James Braddock" was actually one of Merlyn's chosen guard who came from Otherworld and, as such, there was only ONE of him...so how could his Otherworld genes end up in so many CB counterparts on so many different Earths?

Well, that's easy.  There's been a Braddock lineage on Earth-616 for generations now; they've been members of the Hellfire Club for hundreds of years.  It's no stretch to assume that the Braddock lineage exists on MANY alternate worlds, and that quite a lot of them, through accident or design, became Captains.

The abberation seems to be that Merlyn sent James Braddock OF OTHERWORLD to Earth-616 to father Brian.  Could be that James Braddock-616 died accidentally, and Merlyn sent HIS version as a "reality-patch", to ensure that events unfolded as he wanted.

Merlyn seems to have a more-than-usual interest in Captain Britain -- although the rest of the Corps were created as a way to patrol the Multiverse, Merlyn has taken a lot of personal time to craft CB specifically -- to fight Mad Jim Jaspers and the Fury, to fight Necrom, finally to take his place as Guardian of Otherworld.  For whatever reason, Brian was Merlyn's primary Captain.  It makes sense, then, that he should send a ringer -- James Braddock OF OTHERWORLD -- to ensure that young Brian inherited genes that would allow him to control the Otherworld reality matrix, as seen in Excal #50, as well as to watch over him and guide his early childhood development.

Back to the UK comics...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: More Merlyn Mania!
Posted by Don Campbell on April 18, 2003 at 12:17:24:
In Reply to: Re: More Merlyn Mania!
posted by Jeph! on April 17, 2003 at 15:15:36:

> It's starting to look, Don, like your theory about MerLYN being the "Merlin" of Otherworld is accurate.  Nowhere in here am I finding anything about Camelot being MOVED to "Otherworld" -- Merlyn, CB, and the Black Knight simply treat Otherworld as a distant, magical land that they have to quest to, and Camelot (and Arthur's burial ground) is in that realm.

> Now that "Otherworld" has been established as another DIMENSION (and, in the HC books, they reach it by finding and entering a massive door, so it's almost played as another dimension there too), the fact that Arthur is buried there -- and was resurrected there, and now lives there -- need not contradict the assertation in H4H #2 that Arthur still sleeps, awaiting a spiritual reincarnation.  Because the Arthur that was resurrected was the Arthur of Otherworld.

> I'm still keeping an open mind about the Merlin thing -- but this theory could solve the ARTHUR thing.  (Did H4H #2 actually SAY where Arthur was buried?)

In H4H #2, Dane Whitman is in New York's Central Park when a woman rises out of the lagoon and says that his ancestor, Sir Percy of Scandia, knew her as the Lady of the Lake. After stating that "all water is but a pathway between this world and...my lands", she asks Dane to come with her, he gets in a boat (which came from where?) and they journey to "the mystic isle, Avalon." Once there, Dane asks if this is "the place in myth where King Arthur was taken." The Lady confirms that it is the same Avalon, then says, "Legend tells that Arthur was brought here to be healed of his wounds, to return when needed. For some wounds, however, the best and only healing is death." She then shows Dane "the tomb of King Arthur, Lord of the Britons--Arthur Pendragon." When Dane asks how Arthur can be dead if he is to come again, the Lady replies, "Those who told you the tale mistold a part of it. T'was never said that Arthur would return but the Pendragon would arise anew at need. Each age has its own Pendragon. You, Dane Whitman, are to be the Pendragon of this age." The Lady then gives Dane a suit of Elvish armour, the Sword of Light and the Shield of Night, and lends him the winged horse, Strider. She tells him that the mortal lands need a new champion and that Avalon will need him as well, then sends him back to Earth.

From your previous postings, I know that there are UK stories in which Dane met the Lady of the Lake, travelled to Otherworld (Avalon?) and witnessed Merlyn's resurrection of King Arthur. So how does this fit in with those stories? Is there anything that suggests that Dane would soon forget those events...or is it just a case of John Ostrander not being aware of them when he wrote H4H?

Also, in the KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON series, there are two instances in which we are shown the tomb of King Arthur located in the other-dimensional Avalon of the Green Knight. When first seen, the tomb is sealed but later, after a "Lady of the Lake" appears to Adam Crown, we see that the tomb is now open---implying that Crown is either the reincarnation of King Arthur or that he was now empowered by the Pendragon spirit that once empowered Arthur (and which had been sleeping (?) in that particular tomb?). Anyway, from what I remember, the Avalon and the Lady of the Lake from KOP seems somewhat different from the versions in H4H and are probably different from the UK Hulk Comic versions as well. At last count, I knew of at least SIX different Avalons in Marvel continuity, not counting Otherworld, and while there are links between some of them, there are also glaring inconsistencies. For the record, those six Avalons are associated with:
1) Prester John (FF); 
2) Amergin (Avengers); 
3) the wolf-people (MCP); 
4) the site of the Green Knight's Green Chapel (KOP); 
5) the homeland of the celtic gods (Thor); and 
6) the home of the Lady of the Lake (H4H).

> Also: how long ago was the time of Camelot?  Do we have a date?  Was it hundreds of years ago?  Or thousands?

I believe that, in the real world myths, the whole Age of Camelot was supposed to take place in either the fifth or sixth century AD. However, in the Marvel Universe, it has been revealed that the warlord Tyrannus, who once tried to conquer King Arthur's Britain but was stopped by Merlin (and the original Black Knight?), was really Romulus Augustus, the last emperor of Rome who was deposed while still a boy in the year 476 AD. That would place the Marvel version of Camelot in the late 5th Century/early 6th Century period.

> Well, that's easy.  There's been a Braddock lineage on Earth-616 for generations now; they've been members of the Hellfire Club for hundreds of years.  It's no stretch to assume that the Braddock lineage exists on MANY alternate worlds, and that quite a lot of them, through accident or design, became Captains.

I had totally forgotten that the Braddock family supposedly had a long history on Earth-616. I was just re-reading the CB TPB and there's a story in which Dai Thomas reports that he was unable to trace the origins of Brian Braddock's parents since there was no record of them prior to their 1945 purchase of Braddock Manor. This suggests, at least to me, Brian's Braddocks may not be the same as the historical Braddocks that we've seen in other, non-UK stories. Maybe somebody made a mistake?

> The abberation seems to be that Merlyn sent James Braddock OF OTHERWORLD to Earth-616 to father Brian.  Could be that James Braddock-616 died accidentally, and Merlyn sent HIS version as a "reality-patch", to ensure that events unfolded as he wanted.

Loki suggested a similar explanation. It's possible that there was a Braddock family on Earth-616 who had counterparts on Otherworld but that the Earth-616 branch of the family tree died out somehow so Merlyn sent the Otherworld version of James Braddock to take the place of the Earth-616's James. One thing I should point out is that we have NEVER been told that Brian Braddock's father's name was REALLY James Braddock. After all, if he kept his other-dimensional origins a secret, even from his children, who's to say that he didn't also keep his real name a secret and assume another one? Pretending to be a member of a family with a long history of being involved with people of power would have been helpful for his mission, don't you think?

> Merlyn seems to have a more-than-usual interest in Captain Britain -- although the rest of the Corps were created as a way to patrol the Multiverse, Merlyn has taken a lot of personal time to craft CB specifically -- to fight Mad Jim Jaspers and the Fury, to fight Necrom, finally to take his place as Guardian of Otherworld.  For whatever reason, Brian was Merlyn's primary Captain.  It makes sense, then, that he should send a ringer -- James Braddock OF OTHERWORLD -- to ensure that young Brian inherited genes that would allow him to control the Otherworld reality matrix, as seen in Excal #50, as well as to watch over him and guide his early childhood development.

Assuming there was a James Braddock-616 who died, maybe it wasn't an accident. After all, Merlyn bestowed powers upon the "James" of Otherworld that lived on in Brian, making him the strongest of the CB Corps. Maybe Merlyn "arranged the absence" of James-616 so that Other-James could take his place and mate with his destined wife. I wouldn't put it past him.

> Back to the UK comics...

Keep letting us know what you find out. I'm looking forward to your (eventual) write-ups of those stories since it seems that that is the only way I'll ever know what happened in them (aside from the Marvel Unoffical Appendix site, of course).

Don Campbell

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Re: MERLIN Versus MERLYN
Posted by DCW3 on April 16, 2003 at 11:35:14:
In Reply to: Re: MERLIN Versus MERLYN
posted by Don Campbell on April 14, 2003 at 12:23:42:

In his recent profile of the Maha Yogi, Snood of the Unofficial Appendix claims that it has been revealed--possibly in AVENGERS FOREVER--that the Merlin who appeared in ST 134 was actually the Maha Yogi. Does anyone know if there's any truth to this?

			*	*	*

Re: MERLIN Versus MERLYN
Posted by Don Campbell on April 17, 2003 at 11:54:38:
In Reply to: Re: MERLIN Versus MERLYN
posted by DCW3 on April 16, 2003 at 11:35:14:

> In his recent profile of the Maha Yogi, Snood of the Unofficial Appendix claims that it has been revealed--possibly in AVENGERS FOREVER--that the Merlin who appeared in ST 134 was actually the Maha Yogi. Does anyone know if there's any truth to this?

I must regretfully confirm this information. I had completely forgotten about that retcon, perhaps because I wasn't certain of its validity. That revelation actually took place in the second story of AVENGERS ANNUAL #22 (1993) and not in AVENGERS FOREVER. In that Anachronauts story, Sir Raston's Ebony Blade begins fading in and out of existence, signalling a possible threat to the timeline and Chronopolis, so Terminatrix leads the Anachronauts back to just before the "starstone" out of which the sword was forged crashed to Earth. After bringing them through a time portal that leads to Camelot, Terminatrix tells them: "Sometime in what is our past, but is still in Camelot's future, Kang has fought/will fight an evil mutant who briefly impersonated the true Merlin while he and the Black Knight were away...*"  The footnote says "see STRANGE TALES #134."

This retcon was written by Roy Thomas and RJM Lofficier and it also features the second appearance of Marvel's answer to Doctor Who, Professor Justin Alphonse Gamble, formerly of the T.V.A., and the origins of his enemies, the Incinerators (formerly the Dreadlox). It also shows that Gamble was the one who traded the starstone to Merlin and suggested that he make a sword.

By the way, anyone wanting to read Snood's profile of the Maha Yogi at the above-mentioned website has to go to the directory for "New Additons" and not the main directory. I spent more time than I'd like to admit fruitlessly searching among (and being side-tracked by) the various profiles listed under "M" before it FINALLY occurred to me to look elsewhere. Even then, I didn't think of the list for new additions---until I actually stumbled across it.

Don Campbell

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Re: MERLIN Versus MERLYN
Posted by DCW3 on April 17, 2003 at 18:45:08:
In Reply to: Re: MERLIN Versus MERLYN
posted by Don Campbell on April 17, 2003 at 11:54:38:

> By the way, anyone wanting to read Snood's profile of the Maha Yogi at the above-mentioned website has to go to the directory for "New Additons" and not the main directory. I spent more time than I'd like to admit fruitlessly searching among (and being side-tracked by) the various profiles listed under "M" before it FINALLY occurred to me to look elsewhere. Even then, I didn't think of the list for new additions---until I actually stumbled across it.

Sorry about that; I should've put in the URL. For anyone else, it's at http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/merlinds.htm .

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So did you hear? Conan the Barbarian's no longer canon...
Posted by Kevin  on April 11, 2003 at 20:59:57:

A while back, I was starting to get pumped up with the idea of starting to chronologize Conan the Barbarian.  I noticed the poor guy was absent from the MCP overall, and something needed to be done about that.  But a week or two later after that, I discovered a newslink on another messageboard to this story:

http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/pulse.cgi?http%3A//www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi%3Fubb%3Dget_topic%26f%3D36%26t%3D000767

I don't know if the link will work or not, but it's at Comicon's website.  Basically the news story states the our own Marvel favorite Kurt Busiek is writing a new Conan the Barbarian comic for Dark Horse comics.  Basically, I've discovered that Marvel's lost the liscense to produce Conan comics, and Dark Horse won the rights.  They asked Kurt Busiek to write it, and he accepted.  And in the interview given at that link, he states that he is not going to follow the continuity established in Marvel's version, because it would be to much of a burden on his writing.  He said if we the fans wanted to, we could just look at his new version as "Ultimate Conan", (in reference to the Ultimate line of Marvel Comic books).  This news when I first heard it basically sent me into a Comic book fan Spiral of Depression, if you will. ;)  I got kinda bummed out about it.

This...poses a problem.  For starters, I feel betrayed, and now that Conan's being started over, I feel like 30 years of Conan the Barbarian history published by Marvel has been tossed out the window.  Many classic stories can no be considered: no longer canon.

So do we now look at the Hyborian age as not a legitimate part of the Marvel Universe?  Technically, Marvel no longer owns the rights, so this could be concievable like the Transformers universe.  It started out supposedly in the Marvel universe, but went off into a parallel dimension, so to speak.  To be fair, this is different than any other liscense product Marvel has ever acquired. While it's somewhat easy to toss Transformers out the window, there's 30 years of history to Conan in the Marvel Universe!

Are we supposed to discount every single scene with Kulan Gath? Heck, Buseik wrote 3 issues of Avengers that featured Gath.  Are we supposed to assume those didn't take place?  And what about that whole Red Sonja/Mary Jane Watson episode?  

Frankly, I'm no longer interested in chronolizing Conan since this Conan doesn't exist, (and besides, I'm missing a couple of those chronology magazines i was mentioning last time I brought up Conan).  Stupid Liscense properties.  I thought Marvel would own Conan forever.  I'd like to know the details about what went wrong. 

			*	*	*

Re: So did you hear? Conan the Barbarian's no longer canon...
Posted by Kevin  on April 11, 2003 at 21:01:46:
In Reply to: So did you hear? Conan the Barbarian's no longer canon...
posted by Kevin  on April 11, 2003 at 20:59:57:

Okay, so the link didn't work.  I suspected it wouldn't, for some reason.

This is the thread on another message board where I found the link, perhaps it'll work:

http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?threadid=69435

			*	*	*

Re: So did you hear? Conan the Barbarian's no longer canon...
Posted by Kevin  on April 11, 2003 at 21:03:58:
In Reply to: Re: So did you hear? Conan the Barbarian's no longer canon...
posted by Kevin  on April 11, 2003 at 21:01:46:

Correction: both links work if you cut them and paste them into the address line of your web browser. Or they should.  Sorry for the multiple posts...

			*	*	*

Re: So did you hear? Conan the Barbarian's no longer canon...
Posted by Administrator on April 11, 2003 at 21:56:59:
In Reply to: So did you hear? Conan the Barbarian's no longer canon...
posted by Kevin  on April 11, 2003 at 20:59:57:

Am I missing something here? Why should we be influenced by Dark Horse proclamations of Marvel canonocity?

Marvel's Conan stories are canon to the Marvel Universe. Dark Horse's are not.

			*	*	*

Re: So did you hear? Conan the Barbarian's no longer canon...
Posted by Kevin  on April 12, 2003 at 00:09:11:
In Reply to: Re: So did you hear? Conan the Barbarian's no longer canon...
posted by Administrator on April 11, 2003 at 21:56:59:

Yeah, but I figured since Conan is a liscenced property, I figured that since Conan 'shifted universes' then we couldn't count that stuff as part of the MCP.  I mean, isn't that what has been done with other liscensed properties, like Transformers? Sorry, maybe I'm not considering this right.

			*	*	*

Oh, sure he is.
Posted by Jeph! on April 12, 2003 at 00:21:53:
In Reply to: Re: So did you hear? Conan the Barbarian's no longer canon...
posted by Kevin  on April 12, 2003 at 00:09:11:

Nah.  Kurt Busiek's comment about considering the Dark Horse stories "Ultimate Conan" means that he's starting completely over.  Kurt isn't dragging Conan's current chronology over to Dark Horse and building on it; he's starting from scratch.  Building a completely different and unrelated Conan Universe.

Meanwhile, the Marvel Conan chronology remains untouched.  The creation of the new doesn't affect the existence of the old.

Clearer?

> I mean, isn't that what has been done with other liscensed properties, like Transformers?

Again, no.  When Marvel had the license to do TF books, they created their own universe and characters and continuity.  Originally set in the MU, the series migrated out (and was eventually retconned to have never been *in* the MU, despite appearances), but it was still set in ONE of the timelines in the Marvel Multiverse.

Now, when Dreamwave recently got the license to create TF books -- they did exactly what Kurt's doing with Conan; they started COMPLETELY OVER.  They built their own, all-new universe and timeline.

This didn't affect the canonicity of the Marvel TF books at all -- they remained untouched, still safely part of the Marvel Multiverse.

-Jeph!

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Re: Oh, sure he is.
Posted by Kevin   on April 12, 2003 at 22:06:38:
In Reply to: Oh, sure he is.
posted by Jeph! on April 12, 2003 at 00:21:53:

> Nah.  Kurt Busiek's comment about considering the Dark Horse stories "Ultimate Conan" means that he's starting completely over.  Kurt isn't dragging Conan's current chronology over to Dark Horse and building on it; he's starting from scratch.  Building a completely different and unrelated Conan Universe.

> Meanwhile, the Marvel Conan chronology remains untouched.  The creation of the new doesn't affect the existence of the old.

> Clearer?

Yes, it's clearer.  Perhaps I'm just disgrunteld that Marvel lost the Liscense.

> > I mean, isn't that what has been done with other liscensed properties, like Transformers?

> Again, no.  When Marvel had the license to do TF books, they created their own universe and characters and continuity.  Originally set in the MU, the series migrated out (and was eventually retconned to have never been *in* the MU, despite appearances), but it was still set in ONE of the timelines in the Marvel Multiverse.

> Now, when Dreamwave recently got the license to create TF books -- they did exactly what Kurt's doing with Conan; they started COMPLETELY OVER.  They built their own, all-new universe and timeline.

> This didn't affect the canonicity of the Marvel TF books at all -- they remained untouched, still safely part of the Marvel Multiverse.

Hmmm, I suppose this is just what happens when liscensed products mesh with superhero universes.  It almost goes back to the dilemma that's been raised here about intercompany crossovers: are they canon?

Like every time the Predator and Aliens drops by the Marvel or DC universe....  

Oh well, I suppose I'll just have to be content with Conan being a part of Marvel's past, (but is no longer a past which can be built on).

			*	*	*

Intercompany crossovers
Posted by Jeph! on April 12, 2003 at 23:10:31:
In Reply to: Re: Oh, sure he is.
posted by Kevin   on April 12, 2003 at 22:06:38:

> Hmmm, I suppose this is just what happens when liscensed products mesh with superhero universes.  It almost goes back to the dilemma that's been raised here about intercompany crossovers: are they canon?

I'm of the opinion that, if the crossover shows two separate universe colliding (DC vs. marvel, for example), then yes, it's canon.  But if the crossover treats the two like they've been living in the same universe all along (Spider-Man / Batman, etc), then it's not canon.

(Just my opinion, though, not official MCP policy.  Yet.)

Good thing too, because the Team X / Team 7 crossover messed up Mystique's continuity pretty badly...

> Like every time the Predator and Aliens drops by the Marvel or DC universe....

I don't think either one of those has *ever* come to the MARVEL Universe.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Intercompany crossovers
Posted by Kevin  on April 14, 2003 at 08:06:55:
In Reply to: Intercompany crossovers
posted by Jeph! on April 12, 2003 at 23:10:31:

> > Like every time the Predator and Aliens drops by the Marvel or DC universe....

> I don't think either one of those has *ever* come to the MARVEL Universe.

I got to thinking about that after I posted it, and I said to myself, "Whoops! I don't think those creatures have ever dropped by Marvel..."  

Thanks for your answers Jeph.

			*	*	*

Re: So did you hear? Conan the Barbarian's no longer canon...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on April 13, 2003 at 05:25:46:
In Reply to: So did you hear? Conan the Barbarian's no longer canon...
posted by Kevin  on April 11, 2003 at 20:59:57:

> So do we now look at the Hyborian age as not a legitimate part of the Marvel Universe?  Technically, Marvel no longer owns the rights, so this could be concievable like the Transformers universe.  

No, CONAN just fits into the same category as all the other licensed books that were in continuity but can no longer be referenced directly because Marvel no longer has the rights to the characters - ROM, GODZILLA, SAGA OF CRYSTAR and so forth.  They still happened, they just don't get talked about much.

TRANSFORMERS is a different case because it was shunted into parallel universe status years before Marvel lost the rights.  Its own letters column disavowed Marvel Universe references in earlier issues.

			*	*	*

Conan vs. Godzilla
Posted by Kevin  on April 14, 2003 at 08:41:23:
In Reply to: Re: So did you hear? Conan the Barbarian's no longer canon...
posted by Paul O'Brien on April 13, 2003 at 05:25:46:

> > So do we now look at the Hyborian age as not a legitimate part of the Marvel Universe?  Technically, Marvel no longer owns the rights, so this could be concievable like the Transformers universe.  

> No, CONAN just fits into the same category as all the other licensed books that were in continuity but can no longer be referenced directly because Marvel no longer has the rights to the characters - ROM, GODZILLA, SAGA OF CRYSTAR and so forth.  They still happened, they just don't get talked about much.

> TRANSFORMERS is a different case because it was shunted into parallel universe status years before Marvel lost the rights.  Its own letters column disavowed Marvel Universe references in earlier issues.

Ah, Godzilla!  I was looking for another good  reference to use besides Transformers as to what happens when Marvel uses bignamed Liscensed characters, has them interact with the rest of the Marvel Universe, and then the liscense gets pulled.  

Take Dr. Demonicus for instance. Didn't he start off as a villian in Godzilla, (I notice that he has a listing, even though the title 'Godzilla' is not in the key index, much like Kulan Gath has a listing, though Conan the Barbarian is not in the Key.  I guess if Dr. Demonicus made a reemergence now, they couldn't describe any association he ever had with the Godzilla universe.  Such is the problem now with Conan: I suppose it's technically still part of the Marvel universe, but current storylines just can't discuss it anymore.

			*	*	*

Re: Conan vs. Godzilla
Posted by Jhaeman on April 14, 2003 at 11:14:48:
In Reply to: Conan vs. Godzilla
posted by Kevin  on April 14, 2003 at 08:41:23:

>>though Conan the Barbarian is not in the Key.  I guess if Dr. Demonicus made a reemergence now, they couldn't describe any association he ever had with the Godzilla universe.  Such is the problem now with Conan: I suppose it's technically still part of the Marvel universe, but current storylines just can't discuss it anymore.

Just because Marvel doesn't have the license doesn't mean it can't make any reference to something like Godzilla--heck, comics make quick pop culture references all the time to products or people they don't licenses to use in their comics.  What Marvel can't do is use Godzilla as a prominent feature to sell comics or merchandise.  So, the nothing Dr. Demonicus appears, he can mention that he was involved with Godzilla or a "giant lizard" or whatever--we probably just won't have visual flashbacks of it.

Jhaeman

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Re: Conan vs. Godzilla
Posted by garbonzo on April 14, 2003 at 21:50:14:
In Reply to: Re: Conan vs. Godzilla
posted by Jhaeman on April 14, 2003 at 11:14:48:

> >>though Conan the Barbarian is not in the Key.  I guess if Dr. Demonicus made a reemergence now, they couldn't describe any association he ever had with the Godzilla universe.  Such is the problem now with Conan: I suppose it's technically still part of the Marvel universe, but current storylines just can't discuss it anymore.

> Just because Marvel doesn't have the license doesn't mean it can't make any reference to something like Godzilla--heck, comics make quick pop culture references all the time to products or people they don't licenses to use in their comics.  What Marvel can't do is use Godzilla as a prominent feature to sell comics or merchandise.  So, the nothing Dr. Demonicus appears, he can mention that he was involved with Godzilla or a "giant lizard" or whatever--we probably just won't have visual flashbacks of it.

Didn't Marvel change the appearance of Godzilla (giving him horns or something like that) once they lost the liscence for Godzilla?  That way they were able to keep Demonicus and his giant lizard, just not Godzilla.  Think of it as a slight "adjustment" to his origin, much like the adjustments other characters have gone through recently.

			*	*	*

Re: Conan vs. Godzilla
Posted by DCW3 on April 15, 2003 at 15:51:02:
In Reply to: Re: Conan vs. Godzilla
posted by garbonzo on April 14, 2003 at 21:50:14:

> Didn't Marvel change the appearance of Godzilla (giving him horns or something like that) once they lost the liscence for Godzilla?  That way they were able to keep Demonicus and his giant lizard, just not Godzilla.  Think of it as a slight "adjustment" to his origin, much like the adjustments other characters have gone through recently.

Godzilla's new appearance was explained as being a mutation caused by Demonicus subsequent to the Godzilla series. It's not a retcon: the events of the original series remain intact, and the character still *is* Godzilla--Marvel just can't call him that or depict him as looking like the Toho Godzilla. For a profile on the Big G, see http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/godzilla.htm .

			*	*	*

Merlin/Merlyn fun; the Merlyn from Captain Britain is the same Merlin seen in Doctor Who Monthly!
Posted by John McDonagh on April 12, 2003 at 13:49:05:

In Doctor Who Monthly#60-67, the Doctor met a version of Merlin who exactly resembled one of the forms taken on by the Merlyn who gave Captain Britain his powers when that character shapeshifts in Daredevils #1!
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/doctorwh.htm

			*	*	*

More fun:
Posted by Jeph! on April 12, 2003 at 23:38:02:
In Reply to: Merlin/Merlyn fun; the Merlyn from Captain Britain is the same Merlin seen in Doctor Who Monthly!
posted by John McDonagh on April 12, 2003 at 13:49:05:

> In Doctor Who Monthly#60-67, the Doctor met a version of Merlin who exactly resembled one of the forms taken on by the Merlyn who gave Captain Britain his powers when that character shapeshifts in Daredevils #1!

Ahh, cool.  Add that to the Special Executive's appearances in Doc #51 and #57, and you've got some MORE fun...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: More fun:
Posted by weirdiebeardie on April 22, 2003 at 08:16:12:
In Reply to: More fun:
posted by Jeph! on April 12, 2003 at 23:38:02:

> > In Doctor Who Monthly#60-67, the Doctor met a version of Merlin who exactly resembled one of the forms taken on by the Merlyn who gave Captain Britain his powers when that character shapeshifts in Daredevils #1!

> Ahh, cool.  Add that to the Special Executive's appearances in Doc #51 and #57, and you've got some MORE fun...

I don't know if anyone has already posted this anywhere else, but there's also the appearance of Death's Head in DWM #135, which follows on from his appearances in Transformers...as Big Fibish Productions seem to have indicated that the DWM comic strips are now canonical, does this mean we can expect more Marvel/DOctor Who Universe crossovers...?

			*	*	*

Updates to MCP
Posted by Markus Harpus on April 12, 2003 at 16:15:22:

I understand that maintaining and updating this web site must be a massive undertaking but I was wondering when the next update was due.

Not complaining, just curious.

P.S. thanx for one of the best and most informative comic orientated fan sites out there

			*	*	*

Re: Updates to MCP
Posted by Jhaeman on April 15, 2003 at 21:44:52:
In Reply to: Updates to MCP
posted by Markus Harpus on April 12, 2003 at 16:15:22:

Another thing that would be *really* useful is an update to the "Closing the Gap" page, in terms of omitting books where satisfactory analyses have already been rendered.  As far as I can tell, it hasn't been updated in a year at least--so there's some books I want to analyse, but I don't want to duplicate work that's already been done two or three times before (even it never hurts to have another analysis, there's a point of redundancy).

Jhaeman

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Re: Updates to MCP
Posted by Administrator on April 15, 2003 at 22:48:03:
In Reply to: Re: Updates to MCP
posted by Jhaeman on April 15, 2003 at 21:44:52:

> Another thing that would be *really* useful is an update to the "Closing the Gap" page, in terms of omitting books where satisfactory analyses have already been rendered.  As far as I can tell, it hasn't been updated in a year at least--so there's some books I want to analyse, but I don't want to duplicate work that's already been done two or three times before (even it never hurts to have another analysis, there's a point of redundancy).

Well, we do try to alert you when a book has already been analyzed, but since I don't have the books personally, I don't consider additional contributions as redundancy. I consider them confirmation.

Are you saying that books have been added to Project without being reflected on the Closing the Gap page? If so, I'm not aware of it; please let us know if you see any of this.

			*	*	*

Re: Updates to MCP
Posted by Jhaeman on April 17, 2003 at 11:47:48:
In Reply to: Re: Updates to MCP
posted by Administrator on April 15, 2003 at 22:48:03:

> Are you saying that books have been added to Project without being reflected on the Closing the Gap page? If so, I'm not aware of it; please let us know if you see any of this.

I know that the Storm limited series has been added but is still listed as a book that needs to be analyzed; I'm not sure if there are others or not, but maybe if I get some time I'll try to do a relatively quick spot-check to see if there are any more.

Jhaeman

			*	*	*

Closing the Gap ...
Posted by Arthur Stein on April 18, 2003 at 15:56:11:
In Reply to: Re: Updates to MCP
posted by Administrator on April 15, 2003 at 22:48:03:

> Are you saying that books have been added to Project without being reflected on the Closing the Gap page? If so, I'm not aware of it; please let us know if you see any of this.

If I correctly understand how this works, there are a LOT of books already in the MCP that still show on the 'analysis needed' list. 

If the format doesn's get messed up, at the left is the link from the Closing the Gap page (www.chronologyproject.com/gap2/) followed by the issues AS SHOWN under that link that I have found character references to in the Alpha listings. 

Amazing Spiderman             ASM 407-409, 416, 420-422, 424
Amazing Spiderman             ASMU 11-17
Amazing Spiderman             SPIDER-MAN: DEAD MAN'S HAND
Amazing Spiderman             SPIDER-MAN: DEATH AND DESTINY 1-3
Amazing Spiderman             SPIDER-MAN: FINAL ADVENTURE 1-4
Amazing Spiderman             SPIDER-MAN: PARKER YEARS
Amazing Spiderman             SPIDER-MAN PUNISHER: FAMILY PLOT 1-2
Amazing Spiderman             SPIDER-MAN: REDEMPTION 1-4
Amazing Spiderman             SPIDER-MAN: REVENGE OF THE GREEN GOBLIN 1-3
Amazing Spiderman             SPIDER-MAN TEAM-UP 2, 4-7
Amazing Spiderman             SPIDER-MAN: VENOM AGENDA
Archangel                     ARCHANGEL 1
Avengers                      A 397-398
Avengers                      A2 2-7, 9, 12
Avengers Unplugged            AUP 3-6
Beast                         BEAST 1-3
Black Knight                  BLACK KNIGHT: EXODUS
Cable                         C2 30-31 33-35 38 39 43
Captain America               CA2 4,  12
Captain Marvel                CM4 1-6
Daredevil                     DD 362
Daredevil                     DAREDEVIL/SPIDER-MAN 1-3
Daydreamers                   DAYD 1
Deadpool                      DPOOL3 -1 1-4, 6-9, 17-18, 24, 46-61
Deadpool                      DEADPOOL TEAM-UP
Deadpool                      BABY'S FIRST DEADPOOL BOOK
Doc Samson                    SAMSON 1-4
Dr. Strange                   DRSTR3 68-69, 87-90
Excalibur                     XCAL -1,  96-111
Exiles                        EXILES INFINITY
Exiles                        EXILES VS. X-MEN 0
Exiles                        EXILES 1-5
Fantastic Four                FF2 1, 3-5
Force Works                   FW22
Further Adv of Cyclops & Phoenix   C&P2  1-4
Gambit                        GAM3 3-7, 15, 22, 24
Generation-X                  GENX -1, 16-17,  19, 21, 23-25, 29, '96
Green Goblin                  GOBLIN 1-4  (GG in listings)
Hellstorm: Prince of Lies     H:PL  1-10
Heroes for Hire               HFH 1
Hulk                          H2  439, 443
Imperial Guard                GUARD 1-3
Iron Man                      IM 326-327, 329, 332
Iron Man                      IM2 3-5, 10-11
Iron Man                      IM:BAD BLOOD 1-4
Juggernaut                    JUGGERNAUT
Ka-Zar                        KZ4 1-4
Logan Shadow Society          LOGAN: SHADOW SOCIETY
Magneto                       MAGNETO: DARK SEDUCTION 4
Marvel Boy                    MARVEL BOY 2
Marvel: Lost Generation       M:LG   11-10, 4-3
New Warriors                  NW 69-74
Onslaught                     ONSLAUGHT: EPILOGUE
Onslaught                     ONSLAUGHT: MARVEL UNIVERSE
Onslaught                     ONSLAUGHT: X-MEN
Over the Edge                 OE 2, 4-7
Peter Parker: Spider-Man      S-M 64-65, 67, 73-74, 79, 81, 82
Peter Parker: Spider-Man      S-M SUPER-SPECIAL 1
Power Pack                    POWER PACK: PEER PRESSURE 1-2
Pryde & Wisdom                P&W 1-3
Punisher                      PUN5 6
Rise of Apocalypse            ROA 1-4
Scarlet Spider                WEB OF SCARLET SPIDER 1-4
Scarlet Spider                AMAZING SCARLET SPIDER 1-2
Scarlet Spider                SCARLET SPIDER 1-2
Scarlet Spider                SPECTACULAR SCARLET SPIDER 1-2
Scarlet Spider                SCARLET SPIDER UNLIMITED 1
Scarlet Spider                SPIDER-MAN: LOST YEARS 1-3
Scarlet Spider                SPIDER-MAN SUPER SPECIAL 1
Sensational Spider-Man        SENSM 1-9, 14, 17-18
Sentry                        SENTRY 1  (Though not listed as required,I can't find any entry for SENTRY 4 in MCP)
Silver Surfer                 SS3 112-122, 124, 128, 130
Spectacular Spider-Man        PPTSS 230-231, 233,238-239, 241, 245, 247
Spectacular Spider-Man        PPTSS SUPER SPECIAL 1
Skrull Kill Krew              SKK 1-5
Storm                         STORM 1-4
Thor                          T 496
Thunderbolts                  TB '97, 24-25
Typhoid                       TYPHOID 1-4
Uncanny X-Men                 UX 330-331, 334-345
Venom                         VENOM: ALONG CAME A SPIDER 1-4
Venom                         VENOM: CARNAGE UNLEASED 3
Venom                         VENOM: FINALE 1-3
Venom                         VENOM: ON TRIAL 1-3
Venom                         VENOM: SUPER SPECIAL
Venom                         VENOM: THE MADNESS 1-3 (Key lists as V:M but is V:MADNESS in data)
Web of Spider-Man             WOSM SUPER SPECIAL 1   (second story is in MCP as WOSSSS 1/2; first and third stories are WOSMSS 1 and WOSMSS 1/3 respectively; Key shows WOSMSS ; affects Black Cat, Leather, Lace and Flash Thompson)
Wolverine                     W2 100-102, 104-105, 115
Wolverine                     IRON FIST/WOLVERINE 3-4
Wolverine/Gambit: Victims     WG:V 1-4              (Key=W/G)
X-Factor                      XF 121-124
X-Force                       XFOR 54, 56-57, 62  (only Deadpool listed under X-FOR 56!)
X-Force                       (Cable &)XFOR '97
X-Man                         XM -1, 5-21, 25-26, 28-29, 70-73
X-Men                         X 54-59, 62-70,       '97
X-Men & Clan Destine          XCD 1-2 (Key = X&CD; Professor X entry for the flashback shown as XCD 1-FB;)
X-Men Unlimited               XU 8, 10-11, 28

When I found so many, my first thoughts were that I am mis-interprting the closing the gap page. For instance I do not understand the difference why some issues show "posting Board" and others show "offer to Contribute",  But on the off-chance that I DID interpret it correctly... hope I saved you some work.

smile!

			*	*	*

Re: Closing the Gap ...
Posted by Administrator on April 18, 2003 at 21:02:51:
In Reply to: Closing the Gap ...
posted by Arthur Stein on April 18, 2003 at 15:56:11:

Well, they still show up on the Closing the Gap page after the book has been added to the Project, which is as it should be. Unless I have the books myself, I'll welcome any number of analyses as confirmation.

Here's the question, though: Does the Closing the Gap page tell you that no one has contributed a particular book, even though the book is already part of the Project?

Someone else mentioned Storm, and indeed, Storm is part of the Project, while the Gap page says we're still awaiting the first analysis. That's a mistake, and it'll be corrected with the next update. Are there any others?

A cursory glance at the first few issues you're suggesting above do mention that we've received contributions already. Anyone who contributes an analysis of Spider-Man #407, for instance, is welcome to do so, but they do so *knowing* that we've already received an analysis, and they'll be performing the function of confirmation.

			*	*	*

Re: Closing the Gap ...
Posted by Jhaeman on April 18, 2003 at 21:33:05:
In Reply to: Re: Closing the Gap ...
posted by Administrator on April 18, 2003 at 21:02:51:

> A cursory glance at the first few issues you're suggesting above do mention that we've received contributions already. Anyone who contributes an analysis of Spider-Man #407, for instance, is welcome to do so, but they do so *knowing* that we've already received an analysis, and they'll be performing the function of confirmation.

Generally all I can tell is whether people have *offered* to contribute (unless there's a link to the message board), not whether satisfactory analyses were actually received.  From a priority standpoint, would it be possible to clearly mark books in which no satisfactory analyses have been received from those in which at least one has been received?  That way, contributors would know where to focus their energies in the most useful way.

Jhaeman

			*	*	*

Re: closing the gap contributions
Posted by Arthur Stein on April 18, 2003 at 22:09:35:
In Reply to: Re: Closing the Gap ...
posted by Administrator on April 18, 2003 at 21:02:51:

> Here's the question, though: Does the Closing the Gap page tell you that no one has contributed a particular book, even though the book is already part of the Project?

> Someone else mentioned Storm, and indeed, Storm is part of the Project, while the Gap page says we're still awaiting the first analysis. That's a mistake, and it'll be corrected with the next update. Are there any others?

> A cursory glance at the first few issues you're suggesting above do mention that we've received contributions already. Anyone who contributes an analysis of Spider-Man #407, for instance, is welcome to do so, but they do so *knowing* that we've already received an analysis, and they'll be performing the function of confirmation.

Aha! My error. I kind of assumed that if contibutions were still being sought that the entries weren't posted. 

okay... only the ones that say contributions so far (0): 

Exiles        EXILES INFINITY  (only Juggernaut)
Exiles        EXILES VS. X-MEN 0
Exiles        EXILES 1-5 (only Juggernaut for 1-3 and 5, Juggernaut and Black Knight for #4)
Gambit        GAM3 15
Generation-X  GENX -1
Power Pack    POWER PACK:PEER PRESSURE 1-2
Punisher      PUN5 6
Storm         STORM 1-4
X-Force       XFOR 56 (only Deadpool listed)
X-Man         XM 26 (only Margali Szardos listed)
X-Men Unlimited  XU 10

A much shorter list. And a better understanding of the process. thank you

Embedded in the first posting were a few editing notes that I'll reitreate here so they don't get lost with the trash that the first posting turned into:

VENOM:THE MADNESS:(Key lists as V:M but is V:MADNESS in data)

WOSM SUPER SPECIAL 1 (second story is in MCP as WOSSSS 1/2; first and third stories are WOSMSS 1 and WOSMSS 1/3 respectively; Key shows WOSMSS ; affects Black Cat, Leather, Lace and Flash Thompson)

X-Men & Clan Destine (Key = X&CD; Professor X entry for the flashback is shown as XCD 1-FB;)

			*	*	*

Placement of current Black Panther story
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 12, 2003 at 16:28:47:

Can anyone help with the placement of the "Coming to America" storyline in BP3 57-58?  The current issue (#57) is supposed to occur "one year" before the present (presumably issue #56), but as I don't have a complete run of the series, I don't know the two BP3 issues between which this storyline should occur.  

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Placement of current Black Panther story
Posted by SKleefeld on April 12, 2003 at 21:08:25:
In Reply to: Placement of current Black Panther story
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 12, 2003 at 16:28:47:

I'll have to double check (I don't have my books handy at the moment) but I think it's supposed to occur between BP3 #49 and 50.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Placement of current Black Panther story
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 12, 2003 at 23:10:33:
In Reply to: Re: Placement of current Black Panther story
posted by SKleefeld on April 12, 2003 at 21:08:25:

Thanks, Sean.  I look forward to your confirmation.  I was hoping it was earlier, given that "one year ago" reference...

			*	*	*

Re: Placement of current Black Panther story
Posted by Jeph! on April 12, 2003 at 23:27:58:
In Reply to: >Re: Placement of current Black Panther story
posted by SKleefeld on April 12, 2003 at 21:08:25:

> I'll have to double check (I don't have my books handy at the moment) but I think it's supposed to occur between BP3 #49 and 50.

I thought that following the disastrous events of #49, Black Panther was missing and presumed dead.

I'm pretty sure that this story is set much earlier, but since I dropped Panther after #49, I can't confirm it.  I'll try to pick up #57 at this weekend's Boston Comic Spectaculah and have a look.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Placement of current Black Panther story
Posted by Paul O'Brien on April 13, 2003 at 05:35:33:
In Reply to: Re: Placement of current Black Panther story
posted by SKleefeld on April 12, 2003 at 21:08:25:

> I'll have to double check (I don't have my books handy at the moment) but I think it's supposed to occur between BP3 #49 and 50.

No, that's way too recent.  The main continuity reference points in this story are that T'Challa is still on the throne of Wakanda and Everett Ross is in the USA being given new assignments by his employers.

BP3 49 ends with T'Challa abdicating the throne.  So it's got to be before then.  Working back from there...

BP3 48-49: "The Death of the Black Panther."  Everett Ross seems to be in Wakanda throughout this storyline.  In theory I suppose he could return briefly to America to appear in BP3 57, but it's awkward.

BP3 41-47: "Enemy of the State II", leading directly into "Saddles Ablaze" (which in turn leads directly to the "original" Black Panther being rushed back to Wakanda at the end).  Way too busy to force the arc in anywhere around here.

Placement between BP3 40-41 seems just about possible.  Any further back and you hit the phase where Everett Ross was replaced by Chiantang/Mephisto, which eliminates anything back to BP3 30.  It might be possible to shoehorn the story between pages of BP3 30 as well.

			*	*	*

Re: Placement of current Black Panther story
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 13, 2003 at 08:44:24:
In Reply to: Re: Placement of current Black Panther story
posted by Paul O'Brien on April 13, 2003 at 05:35:33:

> Placement between BP3 40-41 seems just about possible.  Any further back and you hit the phase where Everett Ross was replaced by Chiantang/Mephisto, which eliminates anything back to BP3 30.  It might be possible to shoehorn the story between pages of BP3 30 as well.

What's wrong with going back before BP3 30?  After all, this story takes place "one year ago" Marvel-time (not "real" time) -- that's a lot of issues.  I was inclined to place the current storyline before BP3 23, but I don't have issues of BP3 before then.  Is there a good spot before BP3 23?

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Placement of current Black Panther story
Posted by Jhaeman on April 13, 2003 at 09:25:21:
In Reply to: Re: Placement of current Black Panther story
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 13, 2003 at 08:44:24:

As I've been wondering for a while, and this is as good of place as any to ask (and has continuity implications), what *was* the deal with the old Kirby-style Black Panther meeting the more modern version?  Are there multiple BPs established for the purposes of the chronology project, one who did earlier appearances and one who did the later ones?  I was never able to find the concluding issues of the story-arc to see what it was all about.

Jhaeman

			*	*	*

Re: Placement of current Black Panther story
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 13, 2003 at 15:28:02:
In Reply to: Re: Placement of current Black Panther story
posted by Jhaeman on April 13, 2003 at 09:25:21:

> As I've been wondering for a while, and this is as good of place as any to ask (and has continuity implications), what *was* the deal with the old Kirby-style Black Panther meeting the more modern version?  Are there multiple BPs established for the purposes of the chronology project, one who did earlier appearances and one who did the later ones?  I was never able to find the concluding issues of the story-arc to see what it was all about.

As I understand it, the Kirbyesque Black Panther is T'Challa's future self, who traveled back to the present only to die from the brain injuries he/our T'Challa suffered in battle with Iron Fist.  We're led to believe that the fate of the Kirbeyesque T'Challa is indeed the fate of our T'Challa at some point in his future.

Since we're not sure if the Kirbeyesque Black Panther is from the actual mainstream MU future or an alternate future, I'd suggest having two separate entries for now. 

--Paul

			*	*	*

The Kingpin organisation
Posted by Choos on April 13, 2003 at 07:49:27:

Dear All,

I am trying to find out about the mutants that worked in the Kingpins organisation.

Stealth I believe is one of the names.

Does anyone know what issues they appeared in and or their final fate?

			*	*	*

Re: The Kingpin organisation
Posted by Sean Curtin on April 15, 2003 at 15:23:48:
In Reply to: The Kingpin organisation
posted by Choos on April 13, 2003 at 07:49:27:

Stealth was one of the mercenaries seen in THE AGENT Graphic Novel, which isn't currently listed in the Project.  He, and all of his partners, never appeared again, but Auric, Silver, and the rest of China Force went on to appear in ALPHA FLIGHT.

			*	*	*

Re: The Kingpin organisation
Posted by Choos on April 23, 2003 at 07:14:09:
In Reply to: Re: The Kingpin organisation
posted by Sean Curtin on April 15, 2003 at 15:23:48:

Thank you very much :)

			*	*	*

MIRAGE II...MISFIT,,,MODOK
Posted by Arthur Stein on April 15, 2003 at 17:37:26:

new entries marked **

MIRAGE II/DANIELLE MOONSTAR 
NM 70
Regarding the current entry NM 71 ~ PP 42: the last few pages of NM 71 show the New Mutants arrival back on earth and the beginning of the demon rain, all prior to actual combat. The scenes in PP42 (Pg 16-17/3) show the New Mutants  already back on earth on the ground in combat with demons. So I have separated the NM 71 ~ PP 42 entry. However there is a scene in XTERM 3 (pg 12/1) where N'astirh casts a scrying spell and we see the New Mutants confronting Sym in Limbo (I deem it Limbo from the small but definite view of a cliff edge) that is synchronous with scenes early in NM 71. 
I relocated the A 299 entry as it also occurs AFTER the New Mutants are aground and in battle.

NM 71 ~ **XTERM 3 
((  NM 71-BTS:   I dont understand the use of the BTS I guess. Mirage appears on pgs 1-3, 8.-16, 20,24,28-29.))
XTERM 4 (pg 4  New mutants still descending, Illyana on ground)
PP 42  (all on ground) (Relocated entry)
A 299   Another BTS that I removed. She appears on pg 6/1-2,  pg 8/4-5 and   pg 9/3.    (Relocated entry)
XTERM 4
NM 72
NM 73

Similar entries and adjustments for :
CANNONBALL II, MAGIK,  SUNSPOT, WARLOCK III  and WOLFSBANE

MISFIT/
**WCA2 40
AWC 76
AWC 77

MODOK/GEORGE TARLETON
TOS 94/2
**CA 117
CA 118-BTS
..  ..  ..  ..  ..
CA 440
**A 387
CA 441
A 388

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#80

			*	*	*

Phoenix III/Rachel Question
Posted by John on April 15, 2003 at 22:12:35:

In the Phoenix III chronology there is a listing for Marvel Comics Presents 73 (3rd Story).  I can't find an appearance by Rachel in this book anywhere.  The first story is the first chapter of the Weapon X story.  Shanna the She-Devil is in the second story.  Black Knight is in the 3rd story.  Sub-Mariner is in the 4th story.  Can anyone help me?  Am I just totally missing Rachel?  Is this a mistake?  Is the M/CP 73/3 that is listed supposed to be something else?  I'm working on a chronology of the X-Men and any help would be greatly appreciated.

			*	*	*

Ymir and Conan; some interesting additions to Ymir's chronology
Posted by John McDonagh on April 17, 2003 at 15:33:31:

It occurs to me that the Conan stories add in some interesting tidbits about Ymir, since Ymir was worshipped as a god in Conan's time. (There is no reason, by the way, that the Conan Ymir cannot be the same as the Ymir seen in the Thor comics, since Ymir is supposed to be older than the Asgardians gods anyway and the oldest being in the Nine Worlds other than Surtur.)

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/atali.htm covers two stories that add much to Ymir's Hyborian Era history. I would slate them as occuring in-between Journey Into Mystery#97/2, since I would slot it inbetween Ymir's birth and his destruction by Odin and his brothers. 

So, here are some suggestions, with changes noted with a *

YMIR
JIM 97/2
*Savage Sword of Conan#141 (FB~BTS)
*Savage Tales I#1/1 (BTS)
JIM 97/2
JIM 98/2
DRSTR 177
DRSTR 178
A 61
T 294
M/SH3 5
T 417/2-BTS
T 418/2-BTS
T 419/2-BTS
T 420/2-BTS
T 421/2
T 422/2
T 423/2
T 424/2
T 425
T2 14-FB

			*	*	*

Re: Ymir and Conan; some interesting additions to Ymir's chronology
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on April 17, 2003 at 19:58:05:
In Reply to: Ymir and Conan; some interesting additions to Ymir's chronology
posted by John McDonagh on April 17, 2003 at 15:33:31:

> It occurs to me that the Conan stories add in some interesting tidbits about Ymir, since Ymir was worshipped as a god in Conan's time.<p>> So, here are some suggestions, with changes noted with a * [snip]

IIRC, it isn't the MCP's policy to add appearances of a single character without cataloguing the entire issue.  Any additions to Ymir's (or whoever else's chrono) are great, but there's got to be a system here.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Merlin in Strange Tales I#134 the Maha Yogi per Avengers Annual#22/2
Posted by John McDonagh on April 17, 2003 at 15:35:33:

Avengers Annual#22/2 has Terminatrix recount Kang's trip to Camelot, and she states that the Merlin he faced was only an impostor-the Maha Yogi. 

			*	*	*

Unimpressive Villainy
Posted by Tom Bradford on April 17, 2003 at 18:05:04:

You guys left out what I believe is the first appearance of 5 unimpressive villains, Dr. Angst, the Spanker, Tillie the Hun, Sitting Bullseye, and the Black Hole.

All first appear in Marvel Treasury Edition #12 before the She-Hulk Vol. 2 appearances you have listed.

--Tom Bradford

			*	*	*

Re: Unimpressive Villainy
Posted by nose norton on April 23, 2003 at 03:17:27:
In Reply to: Unimpressive Villainy
posted by Tom Bradford on April 17, 2003 at 18:05:04:

The Black Hole Sucks!  That was a fun book.  I remember being shocked to see "sucks" in a book back then.  I must've been around 7 or 8.

			*	*	*

MOLE MAN...MONGU...MOONDRAGON
Posted by Arthur Stein on April 19, 2003 at 09:11:58:

new entries marked **

MOLE MAN/HARVEY RUPERT ELDER
FF 88
FF 89
**FF 90
X:HY 19

MONGU  
(Name should be MONGU II;  The first MONGU was  Boris Monguski, in H 4/2)
AIF 14
**H2 210-FB (pg 10)
**H2 210
H2 211
A@ 22

MOONDRAGON/HEATHER DOUGLAS
The various issues with flashback snippits of Moondragons early life all contribute some piece to her history. The panels are often inter-woven and I am unsure  how you decide how to represent it in this chronology.
I wouldnt have bothered except the heretofore unmentioned flashback in A 135 is actually the earliest depiction of Heather Douglas.  As the flashbacks are all so intermingled, Ill just lay out the panel sequence as I place them and leave it for others to determine how it should be  represented in the MCP. Here is the current MCP listing for Moondragons early life, followed by my panel-by-panel sequencing.

Current:
CM 32-FB
DD 105-FB
GSA 4-FB
A 211-FB
DEF 138-FB
DEF 143-FB
GSA 4-FB
DD 105-FB

Panel by panel:
**A 135-FB  15/2  Heather Douglas crawling out of car wreck
DD 105-FB  17/3  wandering away from the wreck but still close to road (guardrail right beside her)
CM 32-FB    19/8  still wandering from wreck, leaving guardrail behind her
DD 105-FB  17/4   crying alone
**A 135-FB     15/3   Mentor arrives;    15/4   Heather still unaware of mentor
DD 105-FB  17/5 Heather sees Mentor; 17/6 mentor reaches out to her; 18/1 Heather takes his hand. Asks to go with him;  18/3 ready to depart earth
**A 135-FB  15/5  Heather and Mentor en route in space (Moon in lower right)
DD 105-FB    18/4  Heather and Mentor en route in space, passing Mars.
GSA 4-FB    8/6   approaching Saturn
DD 105-FB  18/6  First days on Titan, in Mentors home
DEF 138-FB    13/6   Heather is brought to the Shao-lim Monastery
DD 105-FB    22/1  Inside the Monastery, very early in Heathers life (shes not even up to the priests waist)
GSA 4-FB  8/7 ~ DD 105-FB  22/2 training
DD 105-FB  23/1  serenity attained
GSA 4-FB    9/4   completing specialized training of the mind
A 211-FB  13/1 surpasses the demigods of titan
DEF 138-FB    13/7, 14 to 15/5  first experience with the Dragon of the Moon; takes name Moondragon
DEF 143-FB  14/2 to 18/1   Mentors reaction to name; Moondragon goes off with the Runner.
**A 135-FB  15/6    all grown (this could be elsewhere)
DD 105 23/5-FB    Monastery destroyed  23/6  Moondragon angry 23/7  then grief-stricken; 23/8 leaves Titan

Again, Im not sure of your methodology for dealing with this kind of mish mash but I specifically wanted to call attention to the A 135 flashback.

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#81

			*	*	*

Moondragon Flashbacks
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on April 20, 2003 at 10:52:55:
In Reply to: MOLE MAN...MONGU...MOONDRAGON
posted by Arthur Stein on April 19, 2003 at 09:11:58:

> MOONDRAGON/HEATHER DOUGLAS
> The various issues with flashback snippits of Moondragons early life all contribute some piece to her history. The panels are often inter-woven and I am unsure  how you decide how to represent it in this chronology.

It may be worth noting that WARLOCK & THE INFINITY WATCH had Heather as part of the regular cast and also featured a number of FBs to the car accident that killed her parents.  I know this falls in the gap, but as long as we are discussing MD here, this might provide insight into the placement of her early appearances.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Mac & Heather Hudson's Child
Posted by Cook on April 19, 2003 at 11:50:07:

I just read the new Uncanny X-Men (featuring an appearance by Alpha Flight on the last page), and I was wondering when Heather Hudson had her baby.

Anyone remember?

Thanks!

			*	*	*

Re: Mac & Heather Hudson's Child
Posted by Jeph! on April 19, 2003 at 22:44:34:
In Reply to: Mac & Heather Hudson's Child
posted by Cook on April 19, 2003 at 11:50:07:

> I just read the new Uncanny X-Men (featuring an appearance by Alpha Flight on the last page), and I was wondering when Heather Hudson had her baby.

It's supposed to be featured in next week's X-Men Unlimited #45.

And from the look of things, that issue takes place BEFORE Uncanny #421...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Mac & Heather Hudson's Child
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 20, 2003 at 08:50:38:
In Reply to: Re: Mac & Heather Hudson's Child
posted by Jeph! on April 19, 2003 at 22:44:34:

> It's supposed to be featured in next week's X-Men Unlimited #45.

> And from the look of things, that issue takes place BEFORE Uncanny #421...

Question: where are previous references to Heather's pregnancy?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Mac & Heather Hudson's Child
Posted by Jeph! on April 20, 2003 at 11:04:19:
In Reply to: Re: Mac & Heather Hudson's Child
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 20, 2003 at 08:50:38:

> Question: where are previous references to Heather's pregnancy?

Wolverine #173-174, and Black Panther v3 #43.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Mac & Heather Hudson's Child
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 20, 2003 at 16:03:36:
In Reply to: Re: Mac & Heather Hudson's Child
posted by Jeph! on April 20, 2003 at 11:04:19:

> > Question: where are previous references to Heather's pregnancy?

> Wolverine #173-174, and Black Panther v3 #43.

Thanks, Jeph.  I have BP3 43 and noticed the reference to Heather's morning sickness, and also that it occurs after W2 173-174, which I don't have.  Any specific references to how long Heather had been pregnant in those issues?  As you can probably surmise, I'm trying to place the upcoming XU 45 on the calendar...

I have BP3 43 in late May and UX 421 (post-birth) in early October.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Mac &amp; Heather Hudson's Child
Posted by Jeph! on April 20, 2003 at 23:15:33:
In Reply to: Re: Mac & Heather Hudson's Child
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 20, 2003 at 16:03:36:

> Thanks, Jeph.  I have BP3 43 and noticed the reference to Heather's morning sickness, and also that it occurs after W2 173-174, which I don't have.  Any specific references to how long Heather had been pregnant in those issues?  As you can probably surmise, I'm trying to place the upcoming XU 45 on the calendar...

Sadly, no time references were given in W2 #173-174.  Although, it's not obvious that Heather's pregnant -- Mac Hudson had to tell Logan.  Meaning, she's in her first trimester?

In BP3 #43, IIRC Logan comments that "her pregnancy looks like it's coming along" or somesuch, so the baby IS visible in that issue.

> I have BP3 43 in late May and UX 421 (post-birth) in early October.

That probably will work just fine.  Looks like the baby was conceived around Christmas, and by BP3 #43 Heather would be nearing the end of her fifth month.  When do W2 #173-174 occur on your calendar?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Mac ; Heather Hudson's Child
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 21, 2003 at 07:14:11:
In Reply to: Re: Mac & Heather Hudson's Child
posted by Jeph! on April 20, 2003 at 23:15:33:

> Sadly, no time references were given in W2 #173-174.  Although, it's not obvious that Heather's pregnant -- Mac Hudson had to tell Logan.  Meaning, she's in her first trimester?

> In BP3 #43, IIRC Logan comments that "her pregnancy looks like it's coming along" or somesuch, so the baby IS visible in that issue.

> > I have BP3 43 in late May and UX 421 (post-birth) in early October.

> That probably will work just fine.  Looks like the baby was conceived around Christmas, and by BP3 #43 Heather would be nearing the end of her fifth month.  When do W2 #173-174 occur on your calendar?

Don't know yet, although I do have W2 169 in January.  Still waiting for your comments on the calendar I sent you a few weeks back, including suggestions for placement of W2 issues after 169... ;)

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Mac & Heather Hudson's Child
Posted by Jeph! on April 21, 2003 at 12:51:35:
In Reply to: Re: Mac & Heather Hudson's Child
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 21, 2003 at 07:14:11:

> > When do W2 #173-174 occur on your calendar?

> Don't know yet, although I do have W2 169 in January.

Perfect.

> Still waiting for your comments on the calendar I sent you a few weeks back, including suggestions for placement of W2 issues after 169... ;)

Paul, Paul, Paul, that calendar you sent me was 94 pages long.  And I have a job.  :-)

I'm working on it, I'm working on it.  As soon as I finish reseraching this Merlin/Merlyn thing, I'll get right back to it.  Promise.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Mac & Heather Hudson's Child
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 21, 2003 at 19:06:02:
In Reply to: Re: Mac & Heather Hudson's Child
posted by Jeph! on April 21, 2003 at 12:51:35:

No problem.

			*	*	*

Re: Mac & Heather Hudson's Child
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 27, 2003 at 08:11:19:
In Reply to: Re: Mac & Heather Hudson's Child
posted by Jeph! on April 19, 2003 at 22:44:34:

> > I just read the new Uncanny X-Men (featuring an appearance by Alpha Flight on the last page), and I was wondering when Heather Hudson had her baby.

> > Anyone remember?

> It's supposed to be featured in next week's X-Men Unlimited #45.

> And from the look of things, that issue takes place BEFORE Uncanny #421...

In XU 45, the baby is born "days" before a scene in which Archangel uses his new healing power to save Guardian.  That last scene must occur during the few days between UX 420 (healing powers revealed) and the end of UX 421 (Heather shows up no longer pregnant and Mac is healed) -- actually probably between panels 6 and 7 of page 23 of UX 421.

This means that when Alpha Flight shows up at Xavier's in UX 421 and 422, they don't seem terribly appreciative of the fact that WARREN JUST SAVED MAC'S LIFE.

--Paul

			*	*	*

recent X-timeline
Posted by Jeph! on April 27, 2003 at 13:51:50:
In Reply to: Re: Mac & Heather Hudson's Child
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 27, 2003 at 08:11:19:

> In XU 45, the baby is born "days" before a scene in which Archangel uses his new healing power to save Guardian.  That last scene must occur during the few days between UX 420 (healing powers revealed) and the end of UX 421 (Heather shows up no longer pregnant and Mac is healed) -- actually probably between panels 6 and 7 of page 23 of UX 421.

Which is listed as "2 nights later".

> This means that when Alpha Flight shows up at Xavier's in UX 421 and 422, they don't seem terribly appreciative of the fact that WARREN JUST SAVED MAC'S LIFE.

It also means that Heather is up and heroing just days after giving birth.  I'm having serious problems with the passage of time in any book written by Chuck Austen.

There's also a serious continuity problem between "Uncanny" and "New" right now, focusing on the events of "Riot", and the presence/absence of Jean and Nightcrawler between both books.  I thought I had it all figured out, but then the preview pages for NX #140 hit the internet and blew my theory into pieces.  I'm working on a larger post explaining the problem and a range of solutions, and will likely post it later today, but the upshot is that the "2 days later" notation in UX #421 may have to be ignored.  That, or there's ANOTHER, larger gap in-between panels 1-2 of p.21.

One of my solutions posits that there are actually two weeks or more between XU #45 and UX #422, which would give Heather more time to recover from giving birth and give Alpha Flight more time to, well, forget their gratitude towards Warren.

More soon.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: recent X-timeline
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 27, 2003 at 18:34:58:
In Reply to: recent X-timeline
posted by Jeph! on April 27, 2003 at 13:51:50:

> > In XU 45, the baby is born "days" before a scene in which Archangel uses his new healing power to save Guardian.  That last scene must occur during the few days between UX 420 (healing powers revealed) and the end of UX 421 (Heather shows up no longer pregnant and Mac is healed) -- actually probably between panels 6 and 7 of page 23 of UX 421.

> Which is listed as "2 nights later".

> > This means that when Alpha Flight shows up at Xavier's in UX 421 and 422, they don't seem terribly appreciative of the fact that WARREN JUST SAVED MAC'S LIFE.

> It also means that Heather is up and heroing just days after giving birth.  I'm having serious problems with the passage of time in any book written by Chuck Austen.

> There's also a serious continuity problem between "Uncanny" and "New" right now, focusing on the events of "Riot", and the presence/absence of Jean and Nightcrawler between both books.  I thought I had it all figured out, but then the preview pages for NX #140 hit the internet and blew my theory into pieces.  I'm working on a larger post explaining the problem and a range of solutions, and will likely post it later today, but the upshot is that the "2 days later" notation in UX #421 may have to be ignored.  That, or there's ANOTHER, larger gap in-between panels 1-2 of p.21.

> One of my solutions posits that there are actually two weeks or more between XU #45 and UX #422, which would give Heather more time to recover from giving birth and give Alpha Flight more time to, well, forget their gratitude towards Warren.

> More soon.

I look forward to your post, Jeph.  As for Jean's presence/absence -- I'm theorizing that she makes TWO trips to Hong Kong, which I now place months apart; one in the fall and one the following spring.  She returns from the former (noted in X 134) to appear in XU 44 and 45, Mystique #1, and XX 23; her second trip is noted in X 135-138.  Months separate X 134 and 135, as evidenced by Cannonball's chronology in XX 24.  I can send a revised portion of the calendar if that will help.  I have not paid as close attention to Kurt as you may have.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: recent X-timeline
Posted by Jeph! on April 27, 2003 at 19:48:22:
In Reply to: Re: recent X-timeline
posted by Paul Bourcier on April 27, 2003 at 18:34:58:

> I look forward to your post, Jeph.  As for Jean's presence/absence -- I'm theorizing that she makes TWO trips to Hong Kong

That's one of my solutions, but it makes the least sense so far.

> Months separate X 134 and 135, as evidenced by Cannonball's chronology in XX 24.

That's actually not true.  While it's shown that Cannonball spends "months" off earth and leaves the night of X #131, X #135 clearly shows that it takes place only a few days after #134.

You may be thinking of Prof. X's line in #135 stating that Quentin "has changed much in recent weeks", but in that same issue, Quentin states that Jumbo Carnation was murdered "the other night".  Jumbo was murdered the night before the bulk of X #134, meaning that #134 is only one to three days before #135.

Combine that with Beast stating in #134 that Jean will "be home soon" (and going by the author's intent that she's only taken ONE trip), and we're left to deduce that Prof. X's line about "recent weeks" must be referring to something else -- possibly the start of Quentin's secondary mutation.  Seeing as we've never SEEN Quentin before #134, we have no idea what he used to be like and what changes Prof. X has observed.

All XX #24 shows us is that "months" have passed between X #131 and XX #20-23; and X #131 and X #135-138.

As for Nightcrawler, well, I'll get into that later tonight.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Okay, here's my problem.
Posted by Jeph! on April 28, 2003 at 01:50:00:
In Reply to: Re: recent X-timeline
posted by Jeph! on April 27, 2003 at 19:48:22:

Okay, Paul, you've been waiting for my post about current problems between "New X-Men" and "Uncanny X-Men".  Laying at all out on paper, I discovered that it's not really a continuity glitch so much as it is a temporal snafu.  Everything can be made to work in an order, but a few time notations either need to be ignored or severely stretched.

Jean Grey is in Hong Kong for all of X #134-138.  X #138 takes place over ten days, thusly:

X #138 pp.1-6
Open Day.  "Wednesday".  The day of the riot.

X #138 pp.7-9
"Tuesday".  A service for Sophie, the dead Cuckoo.  Looks like it's been six days since the Riot, then.

X #138 pp.10-14
Thursday.  Quentin Quire dies.

X #138 p.15
Friday.

X #138 pp.16-23
Saturday.  Ten days since the Riot.  Jean Grey comes home and finds Scott and Emma telepathically fooling around.

----

On Thursday, the day Quentin dies, Xavier states to the students that he'll be closing the school for "summer vacation" in "six days", and that following the break, he'll be stepping down as headmaster.  Given that the arc ends on Saturday, two days later, that means that the school will be closing in FOUR days.

Now, over in Uncanny, we have UX #417-422.

UX #417-420 take place over one night.  Archangel and Husk are attacked by Maximus Lobo and his werewolves.  Havok awakens from his coma.

UX #421 pp.1-23
The day after #417-420.  Jean is present to welcome Havok back.  At the end of the day, Nightcrawler decides to leave the X-Men and departs with Havok and Polaris for an archaeological dig.

UX #421pp.23-24
"Two nights later".  Alpha Flight shows up.

UX #422
Same night as #421.  Alpha Flight is determined to take the children at Xavier's into protective custody in light of the recent riot.

Okay, now, bear with me.  If UX #422 takes place AFTER the riot, and UX #421 takes place two nights prior, and Jean is there, and Jean has been in Hong Kong for at least 16 days, then Jean's appearance in UX #421 must be after X #138, when she returns  meaning, ten days after the riot.  So if UX #421 is ten days after the riot and four days before the school closes, then UX #422 is TWO days before the school closes.

Why is Alpha Flight bothering to forcibly collect all the children on campus and return them to their homes TWO DAYS before school was to let out anyway?

----

Now, X #138 isn't the end of the story, over in "New X-Men".  In X #139, taking place the same day, Jean and Emma argue about the affair, and Emma's body is found shattered at the end of the day.  Preview pages for #140 show Bishop and Sage showing up at the mansion, canceling summer vacation until further notice, and confining everyone to campus until the murder is solved.  This could still be Saturday, the day of the murder.  Nightcrawler is present in the preview pages.  The rest of the story arc, including the emotional resolution between Scott and Jean, COULD all theoretically take place on Saturday, leaving Scott and Jean in a position where they're able to be in the same room as one another in UX #421 two days later  but still, it's damned odd timing.

Is it feasible that Alpha Flight shows up to clean the campus off two days before school closes?  If upcoming issues of New X-Men extend the duration of the "Murder" arc for more than two days, the school will BE CLOSED when Alpha Flight arrives.

X #140 comes out in two days.  Hopefully the fact that Nightcrawler appears on p.3 indicates that more of the Uncanny team shows up throughout the issue, and can maybe give us more placement clues.

I have a working theory that places a 3-week gap in-between panels 1-2 of p.21 of UX #421.  I would place UX #417-420 and #421 pp.1-21, as well as XU #45 where Jean appears, BEFORE the "Riot" arc, and I would place UX #421 pp.21-24 and #422 in the six-day gap between pp.6-7 of X #138.  This would mean that Alpha Flight shows up eleven days before the school is due to close.  However, by UX #422 Nightcrawler has already left  he'd need to be back for his appearance in X #140 eight days later.  I assume that he'll be coming back with Havok and Polaris for the wedding in UX #425-426  and it's probably possible to fit all of the upcoming UX #423-426 into that six-day gap between pp. 6-7 of X #138.

However, that theory may be needlessly complicating things.  Although ODD behavior, there's nothing wrong with Alpha Flight showing up even the day of school closing to see to the children's welfare.  And Bishop's comment about vacation being cancelled until further notice in X #140 could certainly have led to some rescheduling on Prof. X's part.

We'll have to wait another two months to see how it plays out  I just thought I'd flag up a warning about the relative passage of time in the two X-Books this month.

By the way, Paul, if you feel like it you can assume that "summer vacation" refers to winter break or, hell, even thanksgiving break if you need to.  Just remember that, as far as we know, Prof. X will be stepping down as headmaster after that break, so unless his plans change in the pages of future New X-Men issues, UX #422, where he is still headmaster, needs to go BEFORE the school actually closes.

-Jeph!

PS  larger, polished X-timeline coming soon, based on XX #24 and a closer look at XXX #1.

			*	*	*

Re: Okay, here's my problem.
Posted by Paul O'Brien on April 28, 2003 at 07:15:21:
In Reply to: Okay, here's my problem.
posted by Jeph! on April 28, 2003 at 01:50:00:

My initial thoughts on this are that the entire current storyline in Uncanny X-Men takes place before Jean Grey leaves for Hong Kong.  That seems to get round the problem with maximum simplicity.  There's space for a lengthy gap between New X-Men #132-133, as I recall (I'm at work right now).

True, Nightcrawler is back at the Mansion in New X-Men #140, but when he left the Mansion in Uncanny X-Men #421 he simply said he was taking a break from the team.  In essence he's just going on holiday for a few weeks.  Given what he then discovers in Uncanny #422, I have no particular problem with the idea that he makes it back to the Mansion - even if only temporarily - in time for New X-Men #140.  We'll have to see where things settle down with that storyline in Uncanny, of course.

I agree that on any view, Uncanny X-Men #422 must precede the closure of the school.  I don't find the presence of pupils conclusive - presumably not all of them have families to go home to.  Sammy was presumably not going to go home for the break, for example, given the content of the story.  But Cain and Sammy talk about Emma in terms making it quite clear that she's still alive.

Also, if the Riot had already happened by the time of Uncanny X-Men #422, Alpha Flight and the accompanying lawyer would undoubtedly have mentioned it in support of their concerns.

			*	*	*

Possible spoilers for upcoming issues here...
Posted by Jeph! on April 28, 2003 at 10:33:32:
In Reply to: Re: Okay, here's my problem.
posted by Paul O'Brien on April 28, 2003 at 07:15:21:

> My initial thoughts on this are that the entire current storyline in Uncanny X-Men takes place before Jean Grey leaves for Hong Kong.

I would do that, too, if not for references in UX #422 that place it AFTER the Riot.  See below.

> There's space for a lengthy gap between New X-Men #132-133, as I recall (I'm at work right now).

Actually, it's between #133-134, but yes.

> True, Nightcrawler is back at the Mansion in New X-Men #140, but when he left the Mansion in Uncanny X-Men #421 he simply said he was taking a break from the team ... We'll have to see where things settle down with that storyline in Uncanny, of course.

Right.  I'm of the hope that he'll come back with Havok and Polaris for the wedding in #425-426, although given the solicits -- that he discovers his true father in #428 -- there's every possibility that Kurt is kidnapped / stranded on the island over the course of UX #423-424.

> I don't find the presence of pupils conclusive - presumably not all of them have families to go home to.

Yeah, there's that rationale, too.

> Cain and Sammy talk about Emma in terms making it quite clear that she's still alive.

Yup.  However, recent solicits from Marvel -- notably the fact that she's getting her own SERIES in July -- make it fairly clear that Emma will actually survive the current "Murder" story arc.

On the other hand, placing UX #422 into the six-day gap between the Riot and Emma's death would get around the problem either way.

> Also, if the Riot had already happened by the time of Uncanny X-Men #422, Alpha Flight and the accompanying lawyer would undoubtedly have mentioned it in support of their concerns.

Uhm ... they did!  That's the source of all my problems -- I would gladly have thrown the whole storyline before X #134, if not for this one reference on p.13:

"If the governor of New York determines that children's lives are in danger -- and he HAS determined that in regards to your school and its recent "riot" -- then he has the authority to step in and remove these children until their safety has been assured."

So -- yeah.  UX #422 DOES have to take place after X #134-138.  My question was, WHEN after?  Sadly, once again the answer has to be "wait for future issues".

I hate that answer.  ;-)

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Possible spoilers for upcoming issues here...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on April 29, 2003 at 06:17:14:
In Reply to: Possible spoilers for upcoming issues here...
posted by Jeph! on April 28, 2003 at 10:33:32:

> Yup.  However, recent solicits from Marvel -- notably the fact that she's getting her own SERIES in July -- make it fairly clear that Emma will actually survive the current "Murder" story arc.

This was my original reading of the story as well.  However, last I heard, the plan was for the Emma Frost series to take place in past continuity, a la Namor.  Supposedly the killing of the character in New X-Men has caused a bit of friction here, since this wasn't the original plan for her solo series - they were just going to do that for the opening arc.  Presumably we'll find out one way or the other in due course.

If this IS correct then we find ourselves in a position where Uncanny X-Men #422 contains irreconcilable dialogue references unless, as you say, it can be placed into the gap between the riot and the murder of Emma Frost.  That said, I suppose a fairly lengthy period might be capable of being forced in between the closing scenes of Uncanny X-Men #421.  Clearly those scenes don't take place one after the other since the end of UX421 runs directly into UX422, but by the start of UX422, Alex, Lorna and Kurt are miles away attending an archaeological dig.

Admittedly, that's where they were going at the end of UX421, which suggests that the gap can't be that long - but who's to say this is necessarily the first dig they went to?  Suppose the professor finds evidence of a mutant civilisation, and phones up his colleague who's doing a boring dig elsewhere which happens to have a few X-Men in attendance.  This at least reduces the coincidence level somewhat, as well as opening up a gap to enable Archangel and Phoenix to appear in last week's X-Men Unlimited.

			*	*	*

Emma Frost (spoilers)
Posted by Jeph! on April 29, 2003 at 10:28:03:
In Reply to: Re: Possible spoilers for upcoming issues here...
posted by Paul O'Brien on April 29, 2003 at 06:17:14:

> > the fact that she's getting her own SERIES in July ... make it fairly clear that Emma will actually survive the current "Murder" story arc.

> last I heard, the plan was for the Emma Frost series to take place in past continuity, a la Namor.  Supposedly the killing of the character in New X-Men has caused a bit of friction here

Hmm.  The article I read on the series confirmed that the opening arc would be set in the past, but  would catch up to current continuity after a year.  That SAME article said that Grant Morrison was script consultant on the series -- and Grant's been alluding to Emma's death in interviews since #114 came out.  You'd think he'd have mentioned to them.

> Presumably we'll find out one way or the other in due course.

Yep.  And hey, #140 comes out tomorrow!

> If this IS correct then we find ourselves in a position where Uncanny X-Men #422 contains irreconcilable dialogue references unless, as you say, it can be placed into the gap between the riot and the murder of Emma Frost.  That said, I suppose a fairly lengthy period might be capable of being forced in between the closing scenes of Uncanny X-Men #421.

Have you checked on the gap I suggested between panels 1-2 of p.21?  It's between the scene where Kurt announces that he's stepping down as leader of the X-Men and leaving with Polaris and Havok "soon"; and the taxicab scene "later" where they actually leave.

I have a frightening feeling that X #140 is going to cameo Havok, up and around, in which case we'll HAVE to do it this way.

> This at least reduces the coincidence level somewhat, as well as opening up a gap to enable Archangel and Phoenix to appear in last week's X-Men Unlimited.

Which I would love.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Emma Frost (spoilers)
Posted by Paul O'Brien on April 29, 2003 at 11:12:41:
In Reply to: Emma Frost (spoilers) 
posted by Jeph! on April 29, 2003 at 10:28:03:

> Have you checked on the gap I suggested between panels 1-2 of p.21?  It's between the scene where Kurt announces that he's stepping down as leader of the X-Men and leaving with Polaris and Havok "soon"; and the taxicab scene "later" where they actually leave.

It strikes me that forcing a lengthy gap into the middle of UX 421 may be the best way forward.  For example, if there isn't one there, then it results in a situation where Alex Summers wakes up from a multi-month coma, gazes happily around the room, and buggers off on a holiday which he arranged on the spot.  It does work rather better if the scenes can be scattered out to allow Alex a little time to recover (surely they wouldn't just discharge him from medical care overnight) and make the arrangements for his holiday.

			*	*	*

X #140 and UX #423 (spoilers)
Posted by Jeph! on May 03, 2003 at 01:11:21:
In Reply to: Re: Emma Frost (spoilers)
posted by Paul O'Brien on April 29, 2003 at 11:12:41:

Well, X #140 didn't give us many placement clues, but it DID confirm that there are some students that reside at the mansion full-time.  Therefore, UX #422 COULD technically take place after the "Riot" and "Murder at the Mansion" arcs from X #134-141.

And, according to preview pages for UX #423, Nightcrawler's back at the mansion ALREADY, after leaving the team in #421.  Scott and Jean are both present, placing this issue after X #141 (Jean returns in #139, and Scott runs off following her walking in on his psychic affair with Emma.  Presumably he'll be back in #141).

We're left with two options -- creating a gap in UX #421 and placing the Scott/Jean interaction sequences in that issue BEFORE X #134, and the final three pages of the issue, as well as UX #422, in the six-day gap between pages of X #138.  If Emma Frost DOES stay dead, we'll have to go with this method.

If Emma Frost comes back to life, we can go with option #2 -- placing all of UX #417-423 after X #141, after the school has closed for the summer.  Depending on how the "Murder" arc plays out, Scott and Jean's non-hostility in UX #421 may be out- of character for them post-X #139.  (It's good to note that in the preview pages for UX #423, which definitively takes place after X #139, they seem decidedly icy.)

I think going with option #1 also gave us a better time-frame to place XU #45, didn't it?  Right now it seems like the safe bet, since we don't know if Emma is coming back to life or not.

I really should stop chronologizing based on internet preview pages.  I just can't help myself!

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: X #140 and UX #423 (spoilers)
Posted by Paul Bourcier on May 03, 2003 at 17:51:48:
In Reply to: X #140 and UX #423 (spoilers)
posted by Jeph! on May 03, 2003 at 01:11:21:

> And, according to preview pages for UX #423, Nightcrawler's back at the mansion ALREADY, after leaving the team in #421.  Scott and Jean are both present, placing this issue after X #141 (Jean returns in #139, and Scott runs off following her walking in on his psychic affair with Emma.  Presumably he'll be back in #141).

> We're left with two options -- creating a gap in UX #421 and placing the Scott/Jean interaction sequences in that issue BEFORE X #134, and the final three pages of the issue, as well as UX #422, in the six-day gap between pages of X #138.  If Emma Frost DOES stay dead, we'll have to go with this method.

How about Nightcrawler's chronology?  He's seen at Xavier's in X 140 and thus is presumably quarantined there during the Emma murder investigation.  So either he hasn't left with Havok and Polaris yet, or he's back (as he apparently is in UX 423).  One question will be if we SEE him returning to Xavier's in UX 423 or if he's already returned at a point prior to UX 423.

Keep in mind, too, that there is a gap of a few days between pages 20 and 21 of X 139.  How do we know this?  In X 140, Bishop states that Emma's shopping trip with Angel occurred "a few days" before Emma's murder.  The shopping trip (page 15 of X 138) was on "Friday," the day before the Saturday prizegiving ceremony of X 138 (pages 16-23), which segues directly into X 139 (pages 1-20).  We are introduced to pages 21-22 of X 139, which features Emma's murder, with the word "later."

Thus we have another gap here ("a few days," which we can interpret liberally) into which we *might* be able to place UX 421 (from page 21, panel 2 through page 23, panel 6) and the whole Alpha Flight encounter "two nights" later (in the rest of UX 421 and UX 422).

What would happen next after the Alpha Flight battle -- the Emma murder or the upcoming turning-point Nightcrawler story in UX 423-424 --depends on the ultimate fates of Emma and Kurt, and how UX 423 follows up from UX 422.  Could the Emma murder be placed between UX 422 and 423?(Remember Kurt is at Xavier's for the murder investigation.)

It looks like the jury is out until Wednesday, when we'll probably get clues that throw all former theories into the can  ;)

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: X #140 and UX #423 (spoilers)
Posted by Jeph! on May 04, 2003 at 01:55:36:
In Reply to: Re: X #140 and UX #423 (spoilers)
posted by Paul Bourcier on May 03, 2003 at 17:51:48:

> > And, according to preview pages for UX #423, Nightcrawler's back at the mansion ALREADY, after leaving the team in #421.  Scott and Jean are both present, placing this issue after X #141 (Jean returns in #139, and Scott runs off following her walking in on his psychic affair with Emma.  Presumably he'll be back in #141).

> > We're left with two options -- creating a gap in UX #421 and placing the Scott/Jean interaction sequences in that issue BEFORE X #134, and the final three pages of the issue, as well as UX #422, in the six-day gap between pages of X #138.  If Emma Frost DOES stay dead, we'll have to go with this method.

> How about Nightcrawler's chronology?  He's seen at Xavier's in X 140 ... One question will be if we SEE him returning to Xavier's in UX 423 or if he's already returned at a point prior to UX 423.

The preview pages -- the first five pages of the issue -- simply have Nightcrawler already back at the mansion.  However, a flashback sequence or some dialogue later in the issue may shed light on how long he's been gone or when/how/with whom he returned.

> Keep in mind, too, that there is a gap of a few days between pages 20 and 21 of X 139.

Yup, I caught this.  Also, X #140 spans two days -- likely the two days immediately AFTER Emma's body is found.  When Bishop gets there (p.1), he manages to quarantine everyone BEFORE they leave -- however, on p.11, the Cuckoos say that the school should have closed by now.  The school was scheduled to close on the Wednesday following the prizegiving, so it's likely that X #140, pp.1-14, fall on that day.

We can then assume that Emma was found no later than Tuesday night -- and the "later" gap you point out in X #139 pp.20-21 can only be stretched to three days -- Jean comes home on a Saturday night, and Emma is killed on a Tuesday night at the latest.

> Thus we have another gap here ("a few days," which we can interpret liberally) into which we *might* be able to place UX 421 (from page 21, panel 2 through page 23, panel 6) and the whole Alpha Flight encounter "two nights" later (in the rest of UX 421 and UX 422).

You can't place UX #421 pp.21-23 into the gap you've found in X #139 pp.20-21, because Cyclops has run off.  After confronting Jean about the affair, he takes off on Logan's motorcycle on X #139 p.18, and hasn't returned yet.  However, there he is in UX #421 p.21, saying goodbye to Alex as he leaves for the airport.

Therefore, UX #421 pp.21-23 and UX #422 either occur BEFORE Jean returns and Scott runs off, or AFTER the "Murder" arc is completed and Scott returns -- but only if Emma returns to life, because of Juggernaut and Sammy's comments about Emma that infer that she IS alive...

> Could the Emma murder be placed between UX 422 and 423?(Remember Kurt is at Xavier's for the murder investigation.)

It pretty much has to be -- again, in UX #423 Scott and Jean are present together.  Since UX #422 is AFTER the riot, UX #423 also has to be after the riot -- and therefore after Jean's return from Hong Kong, and therefore after SCOTT'S upcoming return from running off after his affair was discovered.

Since UX #423, then, HAS to be after Scott's return, then the "Murder" arc, where he's missing, HAS to take place before UX #423.  Therefore, Nightcrawler MUST have returned from his expedition in UX #422 juuust in time to get quarantined in X #140.

> It looks like the jury is out until Wednesday, when we'll probably get clues that throw all former theories into the can  ;)

Yup.  There's still the theory that places all of UX #417-423 after X #141, but it's contingent on Emma returning to life.  And, frankly, I hate that theory, since (a) it doesn't give us any rationale to create a gap in UX #421 where we can more realistically place XU #45, and (b) Scott and Jean's behavior in UX #421, while strained, isn't the sort you'd expect between a husband who's been caught cheating and his betrayed wife.  (Whereas from what I've seen, their behavior in UX #423 IS.)

As you say -- we'll see on Wednesday.

-Jeph!
PS - go see X2.  NOW.

			*	*	*

Re: X #140 and UX #423 (spoilers)
Posted by Paul Bourcier on May 04, 2003 at 09:01:32:
In Reply to: Re: X #140 and UX #423 (spoilers)
posted by Jeph! on May 04, 2003 at 01:55:36:

> > Keep in mind, too, that there is a gap of a few days between pages 20 and 21 of X 139.

> Yup, I caught this.  Also, X #140 spans two days -- likely the two days immediately AFTER Emma's body is found.  When Bishop gets there (p.1), he manages to quarantine everyone BEFORE they leave -- however, on p.11, the Cuckoos say that the school should have closed by now.  The school was scheduled to close on the Wednesday following the prizegiving, so it's likely that X #140, pp.1-14, fall on that day.

> We can then assume that Emma was found no later than Tuesday night -- and the "later" gap you point out in X #139 pp.20-21 can only be stretched to three days -- Jean comes home on a Saturday night, and Emma is killed on a Tuesday night at the latest.

Actually, I propose that Emma's body was found on Wednesday night, and that UX 140 (1-14) occurred on Thursday.  Not only does this give us a little more room for inserting other events (if we need to), but it confirms Esme's statement in UX 140 -- "school ought to have closed for the summer BY NOW."  The Stepford Cuckoos are impatient to leave and we're led to believe that they've already been delayed.  So, classes could have ended on Wednesday and the Cuckoos could have made plans to leave the next day, but Emma's murder on Wednesday night led to the quarantine that forced them to postpone their planned departure on Thursday.  And as you pointed out, the investigation continues into the following day (Friday, by my reckoning).

> > Thus we have another gap here ("a few days," which we can interpret liberally) into which we *might* be able to place UX 421 (from page 21, panel 2 through page 23, panel 6) and the whole Alpha Flight encounter "two nights" later (in the rest of UX 421 and UX 422).

> You can't place UX #421 pp.21-23 into the gap you've found in X #139 pp.20-21, because Cyclops has run off.  After confronting Jean about the affair, he takes off on Logan's motorcycle on X #139 p.18, and hasn't returned yet.  However, there he is in UX #421 p.21, saying goodbye to Alex as he leaves for the airport.

> Therefore, UX #421 pp.21-23 and UX #422 either occur BEFORE Jean returns and Scott runs off, or AFTER the "Murder" arc is completed and Scott returns -- but only if Emma returns to life, because of Juggernaut and Sammy's comments about Emma that infer that she IS alive...

I hadn't considered the Cyclops departure.  His chronology, however, is still up in the air.  For all we know, X 141 could show that he actually was at Xavier's during the investigation.  His story is another factor to watch for, but the jury's still out.

HOWEVER, I think that UX 421 (page 23, panel 7-page 24) and UX 422 can still be placed in the gap between pages 20 and 21 of UX 139 -- say on Sunday, the day after the prizegiving.  Cyclops doesn't appear in these scenes (and this might be a confirmation that he's run off).

So what about UX 421 (page 23, panels 2-6), which happened two days before UX 421 (page 23, panel 7)?  We could place this on the Friday that Emma takes Angel shopping.

This proposal involves a greater intertwining of UX and X on a calendar, which may be necessary to accommodate all the comings and goings.  It would also give Nightcrawler a little more time to return to Xavier's in time for the Emma murder.

> > Could the Emma murder be placed between UX 422 and 423?(Remember Kurt is at Xavier's for the murder investigation.)

> It pretty much has to be -- again, in UX #423 Scott and Jean are present together.  Since UX #422 is AFTER the riot, UX #423 also has to be after the riot -- and therefore after Jean's return from Hong Kong, and therefore after SCOTT'S upcoming return from running off after his affair was discovered.

> Since UX #423, then, HAS to be after Scott's return, then the "Murder" arc, where he's missing, HAS to take place before UX #423.  Therefore, Nightcrawler MUST have returned from his expedition in UX #422 juuust in time to get quarantined in X #140.

> > It looks like the jury is out until Wednesday, when we'll probably get clues that throw all former theories into the can  ;)

> Yup.  There's still the theory that places all of UX #417-423 after X #141, but it's contingent on Emma returning to life.  And, frankly, I hate that theory, since (a) it doesn't give us any rationale to create a gap in UX #421 where we can more realistically place XU #45, and (b) Scott and Jean's behavior in UX #421, while strained, isn't the sort you'd expect between a husband who's been caught cheating and his betrayed wife.  (Whereas from what I've seen, their behavior in UX #423 IS.)

> As you say -- we'll see on Wednesday.

Count on it.  As you might have guessed, I have all the recent X-adventures plotted out on a calendar that keeps shifting every week.

> PS - go see X2.  NOW.

I'm there, but maybe not NOW.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: X #140 and UX #423 (spoilers)
Posted by Jeph! on May 04, 2003 at 10:52:47:
In Reply to: Re: X #140 and UX #423 (spoilers)
posted by Paul Bourcier on May 04, 2003 at 09:01:32:

> Actually, I propose that Emma's body was found on Wednesday night, and that UX 140 (1-14) occurred on Thursday.

That could work too -- assuming that Prof. X instituted the lockdown BEFORE Bishop's arrival on Thursday.

> So, classes could have ended on Wednesday and the Cuckoos could have made plans to leave the next day

The thing about that is, I sort of assumed that the prizegiving corresponded to a graduation-type ceremony -- meaning that classes had ALREADY ended.  Then the students had four days without classes to pack and relax, and the school was CLOSING on Wednesday -- meaning, the non-residents could leave anytime from Sunday to Wednesday -- but not Thursday.  That's how it works at most colleges.

(insert "Xavier's isn't like other schools" argument here.)  Still, though -- why would you think that classes would continue AFTER the prizegiving ceremony?  What was the point of the ceremony other than to symbolize the end of the semester?

> I hadn't considered the Cyclops departure.  His chronology, however, is still up in the air.  For all we know, X 141 could show that he actually was at Xavier's during the investigation.  His story is another factor to watch for, but the jury's still out.

Yup.

> This proposal involves a greater intertwining of UX and X on a calendar, which may be necessary to accommodate all the comings and goings.  It would also give Nightcrawler a little more time to return to Xavier's in time for the Emma murder.

Actually, if I'm reading you right, your proposal gives Nightcrawler LESS time to return for X #140.

By our reckoning, X #140 takes place 14-15 days after the riot.  That's all the time Kurt has, then, to go on his expedition and come back.

I'm suggesting we put UX #422 three to five days after the riot, giving Kurt 10-11 days to complete the expedition and return.

You seem to be suggesting we put UX #422 eleven days after the riot, giving Kurt only 3-4 days to finish up and return in time for X #140.

Am I misreading you?

-Jeph!

By the way, the preview pages I'm looking at can be found here:

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0305/02/marvelfirsts.htm

			*	*	*

Re: X #140 and UX #423 (spoilers)
Posted by Paul Bourcier on May 04, 2003 at 17:58:54:
In Reply to: Re: X #140 and UX #423 (spoilers)
posted by Jeph! on May 04, 2003 at 10:52:47:

> > Actually, I propose that Emma's body was found on Wednesday night, and that UX 140 (1-14) occurred on Thursday.

> That could work too -- assuming that Prof. X instituted the lockdown BEFORE Bishop's arrival on Thursday.

I've assumed that right after the discovery of Emma's shattered form, Xavier contacted Bishop, who told him to institute a lockdown so no one would leave before he has the chance to travel to Xavier's with Sage.

> > So, classes could have ended on Wednesday and the Cuckoos could have made plans to leave the next day

> The thing about that is, I sort of assumed that the prizegiving corresponded to a graduation-type ceremony -- meaning that classes had ALREADY ended.  Then the students had four days without classes to pack and relax, and the school was CLOSING on Wednesday -- meaning, the non-residents could leave anytime from Sunday to Wednesday -- but not Thursday.  That's how it works at most colleges.

> (insert "Xavier's isn't like other schools" argument here.)  Still, though -- why would you think that classes would continue AFTER the prizegiving ceremony?  What was the point of the ceremony other than to symbolize the end of the semester?

It IS true that the Stepford Cuckoos stated in X 138 that they would leave Xavier's after the prizegiving ceremony, so you may have something there.  Of course I wonder, without classes to keep them there, why would the Stepford Cuckoos have lingered as long as they would had to have (at least a couple of days) after the prizegiving?  And Esme did state that the school "ought to have closed" already in X 140; by that, I assume that's the same "closing" date mentioned by Xavier in X 138.  It is true that Xavier's school marches to its own beat.  

And WHY would Xavier bother to have "open day" mere days before the end of classes??  In addition, as you have noted, why would Alpha Flight bother to retrieve kids from Xavier's when they were going to be let out within days anyway?  AND, why would Xorn bother to start a special class mere days before the end of the school year?

Those to me are clues that we're not really looking at the end of a school year here.  It isn't even necessarily the end of a semester at this point.  (Those damned "summer" references may just have to be topical.)  I'm still working on calendar placement, but it may simply be a holiday break (such as Thanksgiving) that follows the prizegiving.  We're told next to nothing about this ceremony, so I wouldn't assume too much about it.

Anyway, I've made more adjustments and have the following to propose (for now):

Friday
NEW X-MEN #135 (1-14)
A school day at Xaviers.  Xavier notes that he is opening the doors to the Institute to non-mutants in three days time.  Quentin Quire has changed considerably in recent weeks.  Quire refers to the murder of Jumbo Carnation in X 134 (1-2) as having occurred the other night.  Glob Herman probably appears here after UX 416. We see green grass and trees in Westchester and its seasonable enough for Xorns Special Class (which is convening for the first time) to go camping.  High on kick, Quentin Quire and his Omega Gang assault a group of mutant-hating youths.

Saturday
NEW X-MEN #135 (15-22)
The day after X 135 (1-14).  Xavier discusses the Quire situation telepathically with his X-Men, including Jean, who is still in Hong Kong, and Logan, who isnt necessarily at Xaviers.  Xorn continues the camping trip with the Special Class.  Green grass and trees.

Sunday
NEW X-MEN #136 (1-21)
The night of the day after X 135 (15-22).  The Omega Gang attacks a group of U-Men, and a squad of U-Men attacks the Special Class, who are still on the camping trip.  Beak and Angel have sex; it appears that its the first time, so this segment must occur a month or more before X 138 (16-23) if the child that Angel carries in that issue is indeed Beaks, as she claims; if Angel is lying, or if her physiology is radically different than a normal humans, then it is more likely that all of X 138 occurs during the week after this.  Xorn defeats the U-Men and the class is taken back to Xaviers school, where the Omega Gang capture Xavier.  It is before a Friday.  Green grass and trees.

Monday
NEW X-MEN #136 (22)
The morning after X 136 (1-21).  It is Open Day at Xaviers, where the Omega Gang begin their attack on the school.  According to XX 24, this issue occurs after XX 23.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.
NEW X-MEN #137
The same day as X 136 (22).  Wolverine is back at Xaviers, sporting a goatee.  The X-Men battle the Omega Gang.  In the end, Quentin Quire is defeated and Sophie of the Stepford Cuckoos is killed.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.
NEW X-MEN #138 (1-6)
The same day as X 137.  The X-Men deal with the aftermath of the Omega Gangs riot.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.

Tuesday
NEW X-MEN #138 (7-9)
The day after X 138 (1-6), a Tuesday.  The remaining Stepford Cuckoos announce that they will depart Xaviers after the upcoming prize-giving ceremony and walk out on Emma Frost, who notes that she is twenty-seven.  This would make her a teenager at the time of her debut in UX 129.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (21p5-22p1)
The same day as X 138 (7-9).  Still in Paris, Cannonball and Lila learn of the riot at Xaviers via the internet.

Wednesday
UNCANNY X-MEN #421 (21p2-23p6)
One day.  Havok and Polaris leave with Nightcrawler for Bermuda.  Cyclops is among those who see them off, but Jean is not.  It is two days before UX 421 (23-24).  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

Thursday
NEW X-MEN #138 (10-14)
A Thursday.  Xorn helps Quentin Quire cast off his physical body and achieve another plane of existence.  Xavier notes that the school will be closing for the summer in exactly six days.  This doesnt make much sense, given the fact that he just opened the school to non-mutants in X 136.  The break may be a week-long autumn break.  He also notes that after the break, he will step down as headmaster, another clue that the break may be shorter than a whole summer.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.

Friday
NEW X-MEN #138 (15)
The day after X 138 (10-14), a Friday.  Emma Frost goes clothes shopping with Angel.  According to X 140, this segment occurs a few days before X 139 (21-22).
UNCANNY X-MEN #422  FB
One day.  Stacy X makes a risque video for Warren before leaving Xaviers.
UNCANNY X-MEN #421 (23p7-24)
Probably the same night as UX 422-FB.  2 nights after UX 421 (21-23), Alpha Flight barges into Xaviers school to take the children.  Heather Hudson is no longer pregnant and James Hudson is healed, so this segment must occur after XU 45 (24)  and apparently the Hudsons gratefulness for Warren saving James has waned.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.
UNCANNY X-MEN #422
The same night as UX 421 (23-24).  Nightcrawler, Havok, and Polaris discover an ancient mutant city on an archaeological dig.  Warren watches Stacys video.  Chamber appears back at Xaviers after Chamber #4.  Alpha Flight have come to retrieve the children at Xaviers school in the wake of the recent riot of X 135-137.  The X-Men battle Alpha Flight and only Squidboy ends up leaving Xaviers in the end.  A conversation between Juggernaut and Squidboy leads one to assume that Emma is alive, so this issue must occur before X 139 (21-22).  Cyclops is not present, allowing this story to occur while he was gone from Xaviers between X 139 (1-20) and UX 423.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.  Full moon.

Saturday
NEW X-MEN #138 (16-23)
The day after X 138 (15), a Saturday.  We see a prize-giving ceremony at Xaviers, where there are green grass and trees.  Angel informs Beak that shes pregnant with his child; if this is true, then it is a month or more after they had sex in X 136 (1-21).  That night, Jean Grey returns to Xaviers with Sooraya and finds Scott and Emma in a compromising situation.
NEW X-MEN #139 (1-20)
The same day as X 138 (16-23).  An angry Jean mucks around with Emmas mind and the X-Men grow concerned about Jeans Phoenix power.  Cyclops takes off.  The Stepford Cuckoos state that school is over for the summer, although there would be another few days of school left judging from Xaviers statement in X 138 (10-14).  We see green grass and trees at Xaviers.

Sunday

Monday

Tuesday

Wednesday
This is presumably the day that Xaviers is supposed to close.
NEW X-MEN #139 (21-22)
One night.  According to X 140, this segment occurs a few days after X 138 (15).  Beast finds Emmas diamond body smashed to pieces.  Given Emmas seeming death here, this segment must occur after UX 422.

Thursday
NEW X-MEN #140 (1-14)
The day after X 139 (21-22).  It is sometime after XX 23 (17-22).  Summer vacation is cancelled until further notice, while Bishop and Sage are called in to investigate Emma Frosts murder.  The Stepford Cuckoos note that school ought to have closed for summer by now, making this segment at least six days (more likely seven) after X 138 (10-14).  Scott is still absent. Nightcrawler is back from the archaeological expedition.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

Friday
NEW X-MEN #140 (15-22)
The day after X 140 (1-14).  Bishop and Sage continue their investigation.
NEW X-MEN #141
The same day as X 140 (15-22).

And, Jeph, how's this for a thought... Wolverine is not at Xavier's in X 134-136.  He returns in time for the riot in X 137.  Where has he been?  How about that trip to Japan where he meets up with Ororo in XU 39/2?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: X #140 and UX #423 (spoilers)
Posted by Jeph! on May 05, 2003 at 01:46:23:
In Reply to: Re: X #140 and UX #423 (spoilers)
posted by Paul Bourcier on May 04, 2003 at 17:58:54:

Paul:

I was about to write a post expressing my annoyance that you don't seem to even be CONSIDERING placing the events of UX #421(pp.21-24)-422 into the perfectly useable, wide-open five-day gap in X #138 I keep suggesting  when I realized, from looking at your newest timeline  you don't realize that the gap even EXISTS!  Whoops!  Here:

X #138, pages 1-6, take place on the day of the Riot.  That day, according to a blurb on p.1, is a WEDNESDAY.  Pages 7-9, Sophie's wake, take place on a TUESDAY  which must then be SIX FULL DAYS after the riot.  Hence, X #138 has a five-day gap, between pp.6-7, of Thursday through Monday.

Your calendar, however, has the riot on a MONDAY, and the wake the very next day  you must have missed the blurb on p.1 that clearly shows six days to have elapsed.

But, now, given that you know where I'm pointing  what do you think of placing UX #421(pp.21-24)-422 into that handy gap?  To me, it seems a lot more simple and elegant a solution than entwining them amidst the rest of the events of X #138, during days when things are actually HAPPENING  for example, your current timeline has Alpha Flight show up and try to remove all the children the day before the prizegiving ceremony.

I mean, really, in MCP terms we're fighting over very little: the only difference is going to end up being Prof. X's chronology, which will look one of two ways:

my way:

X #137
UX #421
UX #422
X #138


your way:

X #137
UX #421
X #138
UX #422
X #138


But why make the timeline more interwoven and complex than it has to be?  Why assume, in the absence of ANY evidence EITHER way, that the events of UX #421-422 happened AMIDST the events of another storyline, instead of in a period where NOTHING else occurred?

Also, consider Nightcrawler: in UX #421 he left the mansion to get his head on straight, regarding his recent departure from the Church and stepping down as leader of the X-Men.  Given that motivation, don't you want to try to give him *as much time as possible* to relax and come to terms with himself?

My suggestion would give him 11 days total  nine days after UX #422  to spend some time away from the X-Men, satisfy his dig curiosity, and return home at his leisure.  Your current calendar gives him a week, five days after UX #422.

One other point: in UX #422, Miss Ishikawa calls the riot "recent".  Not a big clue, and easily interpreted, but I'm wondering  if the riot ended with a flaming mutant chasing a bus of invited humans into Salem Center, why would the State of New York wait TEN DAYS, as in your suggested timeline, to show up and take action?

(Yes, I realize that their showing up at all was Alpha Flight's idea, but you'd think that a full TEN days after a human-endangering riot at a notorious mutant school, the police  revealed to be taking orders from an anti-mutant governor  would have showed up in force ALREADY, of their own volition.)

Placing UX #422 only four days after the riot, as I'm suggesting, lends greater believability to the police's actions, and greater believability to the notion that this is their FIRST action taken against the school.

Let me address some of your other points:

> I've assumed that right after the discovery of Emma's shattered form, Xavier contacted Bishop, who told him to institute a lockdown so no one would leave before he has the chance to travel to Xavier's with Sage.

That works for me  especially given that Bishop seems to have DRIVEN to Xavier's.  He was clearly contacted a good amount of time beforehand, and would have obviously instructed Xavier to let no-one leave until he got there.

> the Stepford Cuckoos stated in X 138 that they would leave Xavier's after the prizegiving ceremony  I wonder, without classes to keep them there, why would the Stepford Cuckoos have lingered as long as they would had to have (at least a couple of days) after the prizegiving?

My rationale is that, since THEY were the ones who informed Jean about Emma and Scott's affair, they obviously carry a grudge  they probably stuck around to watch the fallout; to watch Emma be miserable.

> And WHY would Xavier bother to have "open day" mere days before the end of classes??

I think you're reading "Open Day" as the first day that Xavier ENROLLED human students in his school.  I'm reading it as an "open house", where humans are allowed to TOUR the school.  I mean, during the riot we don't see school-age humans arriving with luggage, we see middle-aged humans dressed lazily and arriving on a bus  that says "tour" to me.

Viewed that way, it's perfectly logical to have an open house at or near the end of the semester.  Or, well, anytime.

> AND, why would Xorn bother to start a special class mere days before the end of the school year?

This is a good point  he's got his name written in great big letters on the board in #135; this is very likely his first day of teaching.

> Those to me are clues that we're not really looking at the end of a school year here. It isn't even necessarily the end of a semester at this point. (Those damned "summer" references may just have to be topical.) I'm still working on calendar placement, but it may simply be a holiday break (such as Thanksgiving) that follows the prizegiving. We're told next to nothing about this ceremony, so I wouldn't assume too much about it.

I would believe that it's Thanksgiving break by now.  (If so, you might want to watch out; you've got the school closing on a Wednesday and the children leaving on a Thursday, which would be Thanksgiving itself  unless Xavier's, unlike most schools, lets out for a longer break a WEEK before Thanksgiving.)

> He also notes that after the break, he will step down as headmaster, another clue that the break may be shorter than a whole summer. Green grass and trees in Westchester.

I  don't see how this is a clue that the break is short.  Can you elaborate?

> The X-Men battle Alpha Flight and only Squidboy ends up leaving Xaviers in the end. A conversation between Juggernaut and Squidboy leads one to assume that Emma is alive

I have to point this out: the name "Squidboy" has never once been used in the comics themselves, not even as a nickname.  It's appeared only on the "Previously" pages.  I don't want this mistake/assumption to get absorbed into the MCP, so I thought I'd point it out: the only name he's officially known by is Samuel Pare.

> Wednesday
> This is presumably the day that Xaviers is supposed to close.

> Thursday
> The Stepford Cuckoos note that "school ought to have closed for summer" by now

I've been thinking about this again: in every school I've ever been at or encountered, when they say that a school is closing on a certain day, they mean that's the day you should be gone.  If school's closing on Wednesday, students should BE OUT by noon on Wednesday.  Not departing the next day, as you have the Cuckoos.  I think you're taking it more to mean "last day of classes", but "school's closed" is fairly blatant a meaning.  It's closed, past tense.

The Cuckoos' statement, "school ought to have closed by now", is made in the evening  certainly after 5pm  and, if Xavier's dorms closed up at noon like every other dorm I've ever known, then even if X #140 pp.1-14 take place on the Wednesday school was to close, the Cuckoos' statement is still accurate: the school "ought to have closed" that morning.

Emma's murder was discovered in the evening  if she was discovered on the Wednesday that the school closed, then Xavier didn't lock the school down until that evening  and if his dorms closed at noon that day, all the students should have been gone already, Cuckoos included.

I again suggest that Emma's murder was discovered on the Tuesday evening immediately *prior* to the day Xavier's was to close  and X #140 pp.1-14 take place at 4:55pm onwards on Wednesday, the day the school OUGHT to have closed had the Professor not locked it down the previous evening.

> And, Jeph, how's this for a thought... Wolverine is not at Xavier's in X 134-136. He returns in time for the riot in X 137. Where has he been? How about that trip to Japan where he meets up with Ororo in XU 39/2?

Well, we don't know that he's NOT there  we just don't SEE him until #137.  He COULD be there the whole time.

More to the point, given that XX #20-23 occur well BEFORE the Riot, and Storm  aside from a small relapse in #20  seems to be back to full strength in that arc, I don't see why she'd THEN travel to Japan with Logan (JUST before the riot) to convalesce in their spas (in XU #39/2).  It makes more sense to place this story during her major period of convalescence  I currently have it occurring between X #133 and UX #410, and between pp.13-14 of XXX #1.

I also don't buy Logan and Storm taking a trip to Japan and NOT stopping by Hong Kong to visit Jean.

(And, by the way, now that we know that the costume she wears in XU #39/2 has never and will never be seen again  preview pages for XX #25 have her in her New X-Men-style outfit  we can disregard it for placement evidence.)

Looking forward to your reply  and PLEASE consider the 5-day gap in X #138 that I've been pitching for days now

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: X #140 and UX #423 (spoilers)
Posted by Paul O'Brien on May 05, 2003 at 03:37:27:
In Reply to: Re: X #140 and UX #423 (spoilers)
posted by Jeph! on May 05, 2003 at 01:46:23:

> That works for me  especially given that Bishop seems to have DRIVEN to Xavier's.

The X-Treme team are located quite a distance away (and I'm not sure they've even been shown to own a car).  I'd suggest a slightly more likely explanation is that he and Sage caught a flight to New York and then hired a car to drive from the airport.

> I think you're reading "Open Day" as the first day that Xavier ENROLLED human students in his school.  I'm reading it as an "open house", where humans are allowed to TOUR the school. 

Is "Open Day" not a term that's in use in the USA?  Schools in the UK have open days all the time.  As you say, it's a tour of the building.  (Normally with a view to allowing actual or potential parents to see the facilities, but obviously the X-Men have other reasons for doing it.)  I don't think it would have occurred to Morrison that the phrase wasn't known to Americans unless his editor flagged it up to him.

> > AND, why would Xorn bother to start a special class mere days before the end of the school year?

> This is a good point  he's got his name written in great big letters on the board in #135; this is very likely his first day of teaching.

Maybe all of the Special Class are resident students who'll be staying at the Mansion over the holidays?  

			*	*	*

Co-opting Paul B's calendar...
Posted by Jeph! on May 05, 2003 at 13:06:47:
In Reply to: Re: X #140 and UX #423 (spoilers)
posted by Paul O'Brien on May 05, 2003 at 03:37:27:

Well, the thread has run off the right side of the screen for me ... I sure hope this reply gets noticed.

Paul O. writes:

> The X-Treme team are located quite a distance away (and I'm not sure they've even been shown to own a car).  I'd suggest a slightly more likely explanation is that he and Sage caught a flight to New York and then hired a car to drive from the airport.

Fair enough.

> Is "Open Day" not a term that's in use in the USA?

As far as I know, no.  I'd never heard it before, and assumed it was Grant's turn of phrase.  Good to have confirmation that it's simply an open house, though...

> As you say, it's a tour of the building.  (Normally with a view to allowing actual or potential parents to see the facilities, but obviously the X-Men have other reasons for doing it.)

Actually, re-reading X #136, it's made clear that Prof. X is trying to attract human students.  However, from the looks of it, the folks that show up are more gawkers than rich boarding-school-style parents.

> Maybe all of the Special Class are resident students who'll be staying at the Mansion over the holidays?  

That's a good assumption -- Xorn makes clear in #140 that they've all been abused or mistreated prior to Xavier's.  Viewed in that light, starting up the class a week before school is to let out is just fine, as the class members aren't going anywhere anyway.

Now, to Paul B. -- I took the liberty of co-opting the calendar you recently posted, making my proposed changes right ON it, so you can hopefully get a better sense of what I'm proposing.  If I've done my HTML right (fat chance), all my changes will be marked in red.

Let me know what you think.

Sunday
NEW X-MEN #135 (1-14)
A school day at Xaviers. 

(On a Sunday?)

  Xavier notes that he is opening the doors to the Institute to non-mutants "in three days time." 

(Since X #138 labels Open Day a "Wednesday", this then must be a "Sunday".  X #121 establishes that Xavier's doesn't hold to traditional human school practices, so there may very well be Sunday classes.) 

 Quire refers to the murder of Jumbo Carnation in X 134 (1-2) as having occurred "the other night." Glob Herman probably appears here after UX 416. It's seasonable enough for Xorns Special Class (which is convening for the first time) to go camping.

Monday
NEW X-MEN #135 (15-22)
The day after X 135 (1-14). Xavier discusses the Quire situation telepathically with his X-Men, including Jean, who is still in Hong Kong, and Logan, who isnt necessarily at Xaviers. Xorn continues the camping trip with the Special Class.

Tuesday
NEW X-MEN #136 (1-21)
The night of the day after X 135 (15-22). Beak and Angel have sex; it appears that its the first time 

(although they could have been having sex ever since after X #131, their first kiss  although this issue makes clear that in this instance, Beak failed to use the condom he brought.  Angel's physiology must be radically different than a normal humans, seeing as she announces her pregnancy in X #138 and by X #140 has apparently already given birth to an astounding number of larvae.) 

 It is before a "Friday."

Wednesday
NEW X-MEN #136 (22)
The morning after X 136 (1-21). It is "Open Day" at Xaviers, where the Omega Gang begin their attack on the school. According to XX 24, this issue occurs after XX 23.
NEW X-MEN #137
The same day as X 136 (22). Wolverine is back at Xaviers, sporting a goatee. The X-Men battle the Omega Gang. In the end, Quentin Quire is defeated and Sophie of the Stepford Cuckoos is killed.
NEW X-MEN #138 (1-6)
The same day as X 137. 

(It is a "Wednesday".)

  The X-Men deal with the aftermath of the Omega Gangs riot.

Thursday
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (21p5-22p1)

(Probably the day after the riot.) 

 Still in Paris, Cannonball and Lila learn of the riot at Xaviers via the internet.

Friday

Saturday
UNCANNY X-MEN #421 (21p2-23p6)
One day. Havok and Polaris leave with Nightcrawler for Bermuda. Cyclops is among those who see them off, but Jean is not. It is two days before UX 421 (23-24).

Sunday

Monday
UNCANNY X-MEN #422  FB
One day. Stacy X makes a risque video for Warren before leaving Xaviers.
UNCANNY X-MEN #421 (23p7-24)
Probably the same night as UX 422-FB. "2 nights" after UX 421 (21-23), Alpha Flight barges into Xaviers school to take the children. Heather Hudson is no longer pregnant and James Hudson is healed, so this segment must occur after XU 45 (24)  and apparently the Hudsons gratefulness for Warren saving James has waned.
UNCANNY X-MEN #422
The same night as UX 421 (23-24). Nightcrawler, Havok, and Polaris discover an ancient mutant city on an archaeological dig. Warren watches Stacys video. Chamber appears back at Xaviers after Chamber #4. Alpha Flight have come to retrieve the children at Xaviers school in the wake of the "recent riot" of X 135-137 

(which is now five days ago)

. A conversation between Juggernaut and Squidboy leads one to assume that Emma is alive, so this issue must occur before X 139 (21-22). Full moon.

Tuesday<br>NEW X-MEN #138 (7-9)
A "Tuesday" 

(placing it six days after the "Wednesday" riot.) 

 The remaining Stepford Cuckoos announce that they will depart Xaviers after the upcoming prize-giving ceremony and walk out on Emma Frost, who notes that she is "twenty-seven." This would make her a teenager at the time of her debut in UX 129.

Wednesday

Thursday
NEW X-MEN #138 (10-14)
A "Thursday." Xavier notes that "the school will be closing for the summer in exactly six days." 

(Meaning, next Wednesday.  "Summer" may be a topical reference, however  it could easily a Thanksgiving break, especially with a Wednesday closing date.) 

 He also notes that after the break, he will step down as headmaster.

Friday
NEW X-MEN #138 (15)
The day after X 138 (10-14), a "Friday." Emma Frost goes clothes shopping with Angel. According to X 140, this segment occurs "a few days" before X 139 (21-22).

Saturday
NEW X-MEN #138 (16-23)
The day after X 138 (15), a "Saturday." We see a prize-giving ceremony at Xaviers. Angel informs Beak that shes pregnant with his child.  That night, Jean Grey returns to Xaviers with Sooraya and finds Scott and Emma in a compromising situation.
NEW X-MEN #139 (1-20)
The same day as X 138 (16-23). An angry Jean mucks around with Emmas mind and the X-Men grow concerned about Jeans Phoenix power. Cyclops takes off. The Stepford Cuckoos state that "school is over for the summer" 

(implying that, while the school itself is to close on the upcoming Wednesday, classes are already over.)

Sunday

Monday

Tuesday
NEW X-MEN #139 (21-22)
One night. According to X 140, this segment occurs "a few days" after X 138 (15). Beast finds Emmas diamond body smashed to pieces. Given Emmas seeming death here, this segment must occur after UX 422.

Wednesday
NEW X-MEN #140 (1-14)
The day after X 139 (21-22). It is sometime after XX 23 (17-22). "Summer vacation is cancelled until further notice," while Bishop and Sage are called in to investigate Emma Frosts murder. The Stepford Cuckoos note that "school ought to have closed for summer" by now, making this segment at least six days after X 138 (10-14). Scott is still absent. Nightcrawler is back from the archaeological expedition.

Thursday
NEW X-MEN #140 (15-22)
The day after X 140 (1-14). Bishop and Sage continue their investigation.
NEW X-MEN #141
The same day as X 140 (15-22).

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Co-opting Paul B's calendar...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on May 05, 2003 at 21:45:02:
In Reply to: Co-opting Paul B's calendar...
posted by Jeph! on May 05, 2003 at 13:06:47:

> NEW X-MEN #136 (1-21)
> The night of the day after X 135 (15-22). Beak and Angel have sex; it appears that its the first time 

(although they could have been having sex ever since after X #131, their first kiss  although this issue makes clear that in this instance, Beak failed to use the condom he brought.  Angel's physiology must be radically different than a normal humans, seeing as she announces her pregnancy in X #138 and by X #140 has apparently already given birth to an astounding number of larvae.) 

 It is before a "Friday."

I think the dialog here suggests that it's Beak's first sex with Angel, but this isn't a problem, as we have established Angel's physiology as...unique, as you note.

> UNCANNY X-MEN #421 (21p2-23p6)
> One day. Havok and Polaris leave with Nightcrawler for Bermuda. Cyclops is among those who see them off, but Jean is not. It is two days before UX 421 (23-24).

Why not move this to two days earlier?  See below.

> UNCANNY X-MEN #422  FB
> One day. Stacy X makes a risque video for Warren before leaving Xaviers.
> UNCANNY X-MEN #421 (23p7-24)
> Probably the same night as UX 422-FB. "2 nights" after UX 421 (21-23), Alpha Flight barges into Xaviers school to take the children. Heather Hudson is no longer pregnant and James Hudson is healed, so this segment must occur after XU 45 (24)  and apparently the Hudsons gratefulness for Warren saving James has waned.
> UNCANNY X-MEN #422
> The same night as UX 421 (23-24). Nightcrawler, Havok, and Polaris discover an ancient mutant city on an archaeological dig. Warren watches Stacys video. Chamber appears back at Xaviers after Chamber #4. Alpha Flight have come to retrieve the children at Xaviers school in the wake of the "recent riot" of X 135-137 

(which is now five days ago)

. A conversation between Juggernaut and Squidboy leads one to assume that Emma is alive, so this issue must occur before X 139 (21-22). Full moon.

Moving these segments to two days earlier shortens the amount of time Alpha Flight reacts to the riot AND increases the time Nightcrawler spends away with Havok and Polaris -- both of which are goals you want to see.

At this point, I plan to wait until after Wednesday, then start a new thread with a revised calendar.

Thanks for the help, Jeph.  I totally missed that "Wednesday" reference...

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Co-opting Paul B's calendar...
Posted by Jeph! on May 05, 2003 at 22:54:27:
In Reply to: Re: Co-opting Paul B's calendar...
posted by Paul Bourcier on May 05, 2003 at 21:45:02:

> I think the dialog here suggests that it's Beak's first sex with Angel

That's one hell of an oddly-constructed sentence, my friend.

Remember my thread about chronologizing fetuses?  Should any of the larvae actually grow up and get named over the course of the series, will we be listing X #136-BTS as their "first appearance"?  ;-)

> > UNCANNY X-MEN #421 (21p2-23p6)
> > UNCANNY X-MEN #422-FB
> > UNCANNY X-MEN #421 (23p7-24)
> > UNCANNY X-MEN #422

> Why not move this to two days earlier?
> Moving these segments to two days earlier shortens the amount of time Alpha Flight reacts to the riot AND increases the time Nightcrawler spends away with Havok and Polaris -- both of which are goals you want to see.

Basically I just stuck the three-day span of the UX material smack in the middle of the five-day gap in X #138, for no real reason.  Moving them back two days is fine, and does serve to increase the police's reaction time -- I just wanted to be careful about placing the jovial moods in UX #421 pp.21-23 too close to the tragedy of Sophie's death.

> At this point, I plan to wait until after Wednesday, then start a new thread with a revised calendar.

Sounds good to me.  I'm polishing an updated timeline covering X #128-present, and I'm sure we can butt heads over that soon enough.

> Thanks for the help, Jeph.  I totally missed that "Wednesday" reference...

No problem -- that's what we're all here for, to check each other's work.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

I AM Emma Frost
Posted by Emma frost on November 22, 2003 at 18:42:06:
In Reply to: Emma Frost (spoilers)
posted by Jeph! on April 29, 2003 at 10:28:03:

> > > the fact that she's getting her own SERIES in July ... make it fairly clear that Emma will actually survive the current "Murder" story arc.

> > last I heard, the plan was for the Emma Frost series to take place in past continuity, a la Namor.  Supposedly the killing of the character in New X-Men has caused a bit of friction here

> Hmm.  The article I read on the series confirmed that the opening arc would be set in the past, but  would catch up to current continuity after a year.  That SAME article said that Grant Morrison was script consultant on the series -- and Grant's been alluding to Emma's death in interviews since #114 came out.  You'd think he'd have mentioned to them.

I am currently doing the female tv show about people with the same name as me. If there is any chance of hooking me up to a computor link of the white queen herself for the show I think it would be great.

If there is any chance get back to my production company 'EmmaFrostSearch' at the above e-mail.

Thanks Emma F.

			*	*	*

nomad?
Posted by mallrat on April 20, 2003 at 12:01:14:

wanted to see if faustus had been brought back
see mcp
last apparition cap america 421 but it was a crossover with nomad 19 were nomad kills faustus

			*	*	*

Stick's First  Appearance
Posted by captamr on April 20, 2003 at 17:22:03:

DD 226 has a 3 panel FB showing a young Matt Murdock and Stick discussing Matts dual nature. This looks like Sticks first chronological appearance.

STICK
DD 226  FB* (new addition)
DD 176
DD 177

Charlie

			*	*	*

Simon Kurasov in Uncanny X-Men 384
Posted by Mike on April 21, 2003 at 05:01:13:

I was just reading uncannymen.net and noticed in their synopsis for Uncanny X-Men #384 that in their notes, it says Simon Kurasov is mentioned as being in the room with Cable/Jean etc there but isn't actually shown. I've checked the issue and it appears to be right. There is one scene showing the back of a man's head but he appears to have hair and Kurasov is bald. That's probably Vazhin. I think this should be a BTS appearance for Kurasov. He did appear in the previous issue though.

Thanks

			*	*	*

MOONHUNTER...TONI MOORE...MORGAN
Posted by Arthur Stein on April 23, 2003 at 15:42:34:

new entries marked **

MOONHUNTER/ZACK MOONHUNTER
CA 422
**CA 427
**CA 428
CA 429

MOORE, TONI
**VSS 1/3
PPTSSSS 1/3
WOSMSS 1/3

MORGAN
CA 152
**CA 154
CA 157
CA 158
CA 165
**PM 19
PM 20
..  ..  ... .. ..
PPTSS 7
**PM&IF 51
PM&IF 52

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering!

#82

			*	*	*

Rogue's real name/secret identity?
Posted by John Omohundro on April 24, 2003 at 08:59:26:

Gentlemen:

According to The Internet Movie Database (www.imdb.com), the X-men character Rogue's real name/secret identity is "Marie D'Ancanto"--at least, that is the real name of "Rogue" as portrayed by Canadian-born actress Anna Paquin in both "X-MEN" films, i.e., the 2000 original and the recently released sequel.

Is there any canonical Marvel Comics information to support this?

I recall seeing a Website a while back (unfortunately, I can't remember the Web address) that claimed that her Christian name MIGHT HAVE BEEN "Marie", but that her surname was as yet unknown. 

However, the only information I have (THE OFFICIAL HANDBOOK OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE DELUXE EDITION, Volume 2, Issue # 11 (October, 1986), pages 8-9), lists her real name as "Unrevealed".

I was just curious as to whether there have been any changes in MARVEL's "official" stance on this issue.

Thank you for your time. :) 

			*	*	*

Re: Rogue's real name/secret identity?
Posted by Jeph! on April 24, 2003 at 10:18:31:
In Reply to: Rogue's real name/secret identity?
posted by John Omohundro on April 24, 2003 at 08:59:26:

> According to The Internet Movie Database (www.imdb.com), the X-men character Rogue's real name/secret identity is "Marie D'Ancanto"
> Is there any canonical Marvel Comics information to support this?

None.

> the only information I have ... lists her real name as "Unrevealed".

> I was just curious as to whether there have been any changes in MARVEL's "official" stance on this issue.

Nope.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Rogue's real name/secret identity?
Posted by John Omohundro on May 02, 2003 at 13:28:28:
In Reply to: Re: Rogue's real name/secret identity?
posted by Jeph! on April 24, 2003 at 10:18:31:

Jeph:

According to a "Rogue" fansite I just visited, "Marie D'Ancanto" is the name used by Rogue in her civilian identity in the "X-Men Evolution" cartoon TV series. Apparently, the folks who made the two "X-Men" live-action films based their version of the character upon this characterization, as opposed to the version in the "mainstream" Marvel Universe, i.e., the comic books.

Also, the site hints that, according to the series, Rogue was born in Louisiana, instead of an unrevealed location in "Caldecott County, Mississippi," as per the comics.

Just thought you'd like to know.

			*	*	*

Re: Rogue's real name/secret identity?
Posted by Jeph! on May 02, 2003 at 14:19:57:
In Reply to: Re: Rogue's real name/secret identity?
posted by John Omohundro on May 02, 2003 at 13:28:28:

That's pretty cool, thanks.  However, as far as the MCP goes, all of that information is non-canon and inadmissable into the chronology of the "real" Rogue.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Rogue's real name/secret identity?
Posted by troi on July 08, 2003 at 23:19:16:
In Reply to: Re: Rogue's real name/secret identity?
posted by Jeph! on May 02, 2003 at 14:19:57:

The final word on what is or is not canon is Stan "The Man" Lee. If "The Man" says it is so then it is so. That is all I need to know true believers =)

			*	*	*

Slyde
Posted by captamr on April 24, 2003 at 14:53:51:

Slyde debuts in ASM 272. He reflects about his origins in a FB (pages # 10 & 11). This probably needs a FB as his first appearance.

SLYDE
ASM 272  FB*
ASM 272

Charlie

			*	*	*

What the....? Captain Ultra and Ant-Man appearances canonical?
Posted by John McDonagh on April 25, 2003 at 12:04:49:

Just checking.......are What The appearances of Captain Ultra and Ant-Man canonical? I ask because the Captain Ultra stories are drawn by the same guy who drew the Marvel Comics Presents and Marvel Holiday Special Captain Ultra stories. 

 Also, Ant-Man in What the....? is just called...Ant Man. No parodic name, and they refer to him as Scott Lang. 

http://marvunapp.com/Appendix/santa.htm summarizes the appearance.

To get really, fringy, Howard the Duck appeared in a Spider-Ham back-up in Marvel Tales#237! Not only that, but since Spider-Ham encounterd Forbush Man in another back-up, look at all the things that come!

			*	*	*

What the....? & Spider-Ham
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on April 25, 2003 at 13:29:39:
In Reply to: What the....? Captain Ultra and Ant-Man appearances canonical?
posted by John McDonagh on April 25, 2003 at 12:04:49:

> Just checking.......are What The appearances of Captain Ultra and Ant-Man canonical? I ask because the Captain Ultra stories are drawn by the same guy who drew the Marvel Comics Presents and Marvel Holiday Special Captain Ultra stories. 

The standard answer to is "x" canon is that we take everything on a case-by-case basis.  Once someone can report on the appearance in question, decisions can be made.

> To get really, fringy, Howard the Duck appeared in a Spider-Ham back-up in Marvel Tales#237! Not only that, but since Spider-Ham encounterd Forbush Man in another back-up, look at all the things that come!

What issues of Marvel Tales did Spider-Ham appear in?  I've seen him in What The?!.  Did he appear anywhere else besides his own book?

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Spider-Ham appeared in Marvel Tales back-ups around the 230's
Posted by John McDonagh on April 27, 2003 at 13:45:55:
In Reply to: What the....? & Spider-Ham
posted by StAkAr Karnak on April 25, 2003 at 13:29:39:

Spider-Ham appeared in Marvel Tales back-ups around the 230's. Marvel Tales mostly did reprints, but some original back-ups appeared.........which makes things tricky. Besides Spider-Ham back-ups, original stories featuring the Wizard and Trapster and the X-Men and Sunstroke (what! Classic X-Men wasn't enough) appeared in the back of Marvel Tales! 

			*	*	*

Re: Spider-Ham appeared in Marvel Tales back-ups around the 230's
Posted by DCW3 on April 27, 2003 at 14:25:23:
In Reply to: Spider-Ham appeared in Marvel Tales back-ups around the 230's
posted by John McDonagh on April 27, 2003 at 13:45:55:

According to samruby.com, Spider-Ham appeared in Marvel Tales #201-212, 214-219, 223-230, 233, 236, 238-240 & 247.

			*	*	*

Crimson Dynamo misprint?
Posted by Dynamo on April 26, 2003 at 21:54:15:

In the chronology, it states:

CRIMSON DYNAMO VIII/PROF. ANTON VANKO II
MASTERS OF EVIL

What does this refer to? There's no such series as masters of evil and I've never heard of a second Anton Vanko.  I dont think there's ever been an eighth crimson dynamo, has there?

			*	*	*

No misprint
Posted by Jeph! on April 26, 2003 at 22:33:55:
In Reply to: Crimson Dynamo misprint?
posted by Dynamo  on April 26, 2003 at 21:54:15:

> In the chronology, it states:

> CRIMSON DYNAMO VIII/PROF. ANTON VANKO II
> MASTERS OF EVIL

> What does this refer to?

It refers to the "Heroes Reborn" one-shot entitled "Masters of Evil".  Along with five or six others, including "Young Allies", "Rebel", "Doom" and "Doomsday", the books featured adventures on the Heroes Reborn world after all of "our" heroes had left, and culminated in the transferring of the HR Earth into our dimension, orbiting opposite the sun as the new Counter-Earth.

The eighth Dynamo and second Anton Vanko, then, is the HR-earth counterpart of the real Anton Vanko.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Counter Earth?
Posted by Sidewinder on April 28, 2003 at 09:55:18:
In Reply to: No misprint
posted by Jeph! on April 26, 2003 at 22:33:55:

> and culminated in the transferring of the HR Earth into our dimension, orbiting opposite the sun as the new Counter-Earth.

I'm a long time X-Men reader and Marvel fan, but even I missed this Counter-Earth thing accuring.  When did it happen and is this Coutner-Earth still in orbit?  Is it ever referenced - I've never heard of it.

			*	*	*

Re: Counter Earth?
Posted by Jeph! on April 28, 2003 at 10:18:21:
In Reply to: Counter Earth?
posted by Sidewinder on April 28, 2003 at 09:55:18:

> > and culminated in the transferring of the HR Earth into our dimension, orbiting opposite the sun as the new Counter-Earth.

> ...I missed this Counter-Earth thing accuring.  When did it happen

Like I said, it happened over the series of "Heroes Reborn" one-shots that came out around the same time as FF v3 #25.  I think "Heroes Reborn: Doomsday" was the final issue.

> and is this Coutner-Earth still in orbit?

Yup.  It's also called "Planet Doom" now -- perhaps you've heard of it by that name.

> Is it ever referenced - I've never heard of it.

It was the subject of a lengthy storyline in Thunderbolts #60-74, and that's probably the last we'll ever see of it.  Jolt, of the T-Bolts, lives there now.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

MORPHEUS...MOSES...MR. FANTASTIC
Posted by Arthur Stein on April 27, 2003 at 07:17:26:

new entries marked **

MORPHEUS/ROBERT MARKHAM
**MK 12
MK 22
MK 23

MOSES
FFOR 11-FB
FFOR 2
FFOR 10-BTS
**FFOR 10  (Moses makes an actual appearance on pg 21)
FFOR 11

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
FF 14
**ST109  (same update for the Thing)
ST 110

..  ..  ..  ..  ..

FF 23
**ST 118   (same update for Invisible Woman and the Thing)
ST 119
..  ..  ..  ..  ..

ASM 18
ST 127
**ASM 19  (unseen; but when the Torch returns to FF headquarters, he is asked: Did you ever find out WHY Spider-man seemed to act cowardly last month, Johnny? What explanation did he give you?.   The thing wouldnt call him Johnny; hed likely use Matchstick or some other nick. It sounds more like Reed than Sue, especially in light of the last comments Reed made in ASM 18 when asked where Johnny was going  I guess hes going to try to find out the reason for Spider-mans strange behaviour. Interest in Spider-mans behaviour is more up Reeds alley than Sues, especially in the early years.  Hardly conclusive, but.

FF@ 2/2

..  ..  ..  ..  ..

A@ 12
**M/TALES 198/2
FF 251

..  ..  ..  ..  ..

FF 326
**Q 3 (Pg 6/5 In civvies, leaving Four Freedoms Plaza with Sue. )
A 301

..  ..  ..  ..  ..

FF 349
**PPTSS 177  (I could not determine if this should fall before or after the Q 20 entry)
Q 20
IM 275

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#83

			*	*	*

the Merlyn Report
Posted by Jeph! on April 28, 2003 at 00:39:43:

After having read through all of Captain Britain's UK comics, and finally having three days straight off from work, I can finally post a hopefully comprehensive review of the evidence linking Merlyn of Otherworld to Merlin of Camelot.

Is there proof, utter proof, that Merlyn the omniversal manipulator IS the Merlin of Earth-616 legend?  No.  But there's serious evidence.  One could argue, at best, that Merlyn IMPERSONATED Merlin for a time, as did the Maha Yogi.

Most of the Merlyn revelations that we see deal with his time mentoring CB.  The big reveal in The Daredevils #1 reads more as "the kindly old wizard that helped Captain Britain was really an all-powerful immortal manipulator!" than "the Merlin of antiquity was really an all-powerful immortal manipulator."  The rest of the revelations and retcons show us how Merlyn was behind many of the events in CB's life.  There's very little to tie him to Arthurian legend, except for a few stray claims back when all of his writers assumed he was simply the Merlin of Camelot.

What evidence IS there?  Well, mainly a few flashbacks in Captain Britain and some references in Hulk Comic.  Interaction between Merlin and King Arthur is scant, but consistent with the notion that Merlyn was Merlin.  I'll run through it all quickly, and then give some possible interpretations.  In the end, though, I suspect that all we should aim for is an MCP notation that Merlyn CLAIMS to be the Merlin of Earth-616 legend. 

(By the way, it's interesting to point out that Merlyn's name isn't consistent throughout his appearances.  In the original CB comics, he's spelled "Merlin".  In Hulk Comic, it's spelled "Merlyn".  Then it's "Merlin" again for Alan Moore's run, and finally changed to "Merlyn" AGAIN during Alan Davis' run on Excalibur.  For simplicity, though, I'm going to refer to him as "Merlyn" throughout.)

----

In Captain Britain #33-37, Merlyn transports CB's spirit to Otherworld and tests him with illusions.  He then gives him a pep talk and a power upgrade, and sends him back to his body.  In this arc, we see several flashbacks to the time of King Arthur.

In CB #34, Merlyn says "I walked your Earth disguised as a mortal magician in the court of King Arthur!"

In CB #35, Merlyn says (and flashbacks show) "I dwelled on Earth as the wizard, Merlin!  I am a star-born space traveler!  I journey throughout galaxies, studying and aiding their countless life-forms!  On thy world, I served Arthur!  My powers and counsel made Camelot the brightest of shining jewels!"  However, "Peace and brotherhood fell victim to greed and lust  then to war and destruction!", so Merlyn decides to leave Camelot, stating "I shall return to my star-home, where waits my daughter, Roma!"  Before departing, he leaves behind a sword and an amulet, hoping to find a hero worthy "to restore the glory that was Camelot!"

----

The next time we see Merlyn is over the course of the "Black Knight" epic in Hulk Comic #1-63 (more accurately, Hulk Comic #1, 3-30, 42-55 and 57-63.  The story is 148 pages, spread out over 50 issues, and it's quite annoying to read 3 pages at a time, I tell you).

In HC #4, it's revealed that the Black Knight has been dispatched by Merlyn to find Captain Britain and bring him to Otherworld, to fight against a growing evil there.  I'm unsure of the exact relationship between Dane Whitman and Merlin, but in this story he treats him with quite a lot of reverence.

In #5, the Black Knight recognizes their attacker, Modred, by face.  This implies that he IS the same Modred the Mystic as on the MCP, and although I can't find any comics where the two have met, it's possible that Dane knew of him through the Avengers' very comprehensive files.

In #7, Vortigen, first of the twelve Walkers, is introduced.  A legend told by a local witch makes them sound native to Earth (indeed, Modred is one of the 12  six are good, six are evil), we later learn that Vortigen is "a king in Otherworld".  Walkers are essentially "path finders"; they know the "old paths" that lead to magical places.  Vortigen leads CB and the Black Knight through the path to the doors of Otherworld.

In #14, we learn that Vortigen was "a king in Otherworld  until he pledged his powers to Merlyn's service".  In #16, we learn that Vortigen "returned to Earth" (presumably from his throne in Otherworld) at Merlyn's behest to find CB, and yet his magical staff is made from the wood of a tree that only grows on Earth.  When it is broken, he sets out on the path to "the North Lands" to find the sacred Rowan tree and create a new one.  In #61 we learn that the six "proud Walkers" were allies of Merlyn long ago, though it's not clear if it was on Earth or Otherworld.

In #20, Otherworld is (correctly) labeled "another dimension" by Captain Britain.  The story's main thrust now appears to be the attempted conquest by Necromon

In #27, Modred, last seen on Earth, pops up in Otherworld.  However, as he's been revealed as a Walker, it's no surprise that he has the power to find the path there.

In #44, Merlyn claims that Necromon, a dark god of the Netherworld, seeks dominion of the "three realms" of the Netherworld, Otherworld and Earth-616.  (The way the story treats it, these are the only three realms that exist.  Alternate Earths don't seem to factor in.)  Merlyn then goes on to say that in every age, a hero has arisen on Earth to defeat Necromon, and King Arthur was the greatest hero of all.  "His knowledge pierced the mists of Otherworld", says Merlyn.  After Arthur "fell in battle", Merlyn admits to "instigating new heroes".  he then goes on to say that while Arthur WAS buried in Avalon, dark forces have recently stolen and hidden his remains somewhere on Otherworld.

In #50, we see that the castle of Camelot exists in Otherworld, at the edge of a great chasm, the "gulf of nothingness" on the "lip of the world".  In #51, Roma says that this is "a far different Camelot than that of legend".  The only thing keeping it from falling into the gulf is a slender bridge, held together with Merlyn's magic.

In #54, the trolls laying siege to Camelot yell "Otherworld is ours!", implying that Camelot is the seat of power on Otherworld (even without Arthur).  This inference is borne out in #63, although the very fact that the castle is under siege shows that Merlyn doesn't have complete control of the planet.  #57 shows an ocean dotted with islands, implying that Otherworld is a regular planet just like Earth, rather than some mystical land with no clear borders.

In #63, Merlyn and Arthur interact for the first time, and although nothing important was said, they certainly appear to know each other.  Camelot is destroyed, falling into the gulf, but Vortigen offers his kingdom to build Camelot anew.  Necromon, dark god of the Netherworld, dies.

----

Captain Britain's adventures then moved on to the UK's "Marvel Super Heroes" magazine  these are the first adventures to have been collected in the USA, and can be found in the "X-Men Archives featuring Captain Britain" miniseries.

In M/SH2 #377 and #383, we see Merlyn and Arthur discussing CB's mission on an alternate Earth.  Merlyn treats Arthur with respect, calling him "sire", and once again they seem to interact like the Merlin and Arthur of old.

In "Mighty World of Marvel" #9-11, we see Merlyn playing a game of chess against Roma, the outcome to determine events on Earth-616.  The chess game seems largely symbolic  it's unclear as to whether the game affects reality or whether reality affects the game, or both.  Roma seems to be simply moving the pieces in reaction to real-world events, and the Fury's appearance takes both players by surprise  however, a desperate move Merlyn makes on the gameboard results in divine intervention that saves Captain UK's life.  At the climax of the game, Merlyn keels over dead (although later issues of Excalibur will reveal that this was a ruse.)

Finally, in MWoM #13, we see Arthur as a pallbearer at Merlyn's funeral, where Roma eulogizes Merlyn by calling him "firstborn of the devil".

----

So  is Merlyn Merlin?  You decide.  I think he is, and am prepared to rationalize off events in other books (his time as Myrradin in Namor #62, his suspended animation in IM #150) as "misdirection".

In Excalibur #50, we learn that Merlin is an immortal being from another dimension.  Long long ago, he traveled to Earth-616, which he called "the prime Earth", to cast a spell that would create an energy matrix throughout the multiverse.  One of his fellow travelers was Necrom, the Sorcerer Supreme of his race.  Necrom turned out to be evil, and when he made a bid for power at the height of the spell, Merlyn leapt into the matrix and was swept away across the multiverse.  Over time he learned to control the power, and established Otherworld.  Excalibur #50 goes on to say that he created the Corps to "patrol the Multiverse", and that he needed pawns to strike at Necrom indirectly (which was one of the reasons he faked his death, to worm his way under Necrom's radar).

Now, the main villain in the "Hulk Comic" run was named NecromON, a nether-god.  Is it possible that Necromon was the patron god of Necrom, and a similarly evil force?  In Excalibur, Necrom is trying to gain control of all realities in the Multiverse.  In Hulk Comic, Necrom is trying to gain control of Otherworld and the "prime Earth".  Similar goals, similar names, similar enemy: Merlyn.  I believe they are linked.

In the UK "Jaspers Warp" arc running through Marvel Super Heroes, the Daredevils and Mighty World of Marvel, we learn that Merlyn was grooming CB all along as his champion to defeat Jaspers and the Fury.  In Excalibur #42-50, we learn that Merlyn was grooming Excalibur all along as his champions to defeat Necrom.  In the Excalibur v2 series, we learn that Merlyn was grooming CB all along to be his successor as Guardian of Otherworld.  For someone who runs a Corps that patrols every known reality in the Multiverse, he sure seems dependant on Captain Britain.  Perhaps it's because Earth-616 is the "prime Earth"?  Perhaps that's why he focused so much on the Camelot that arose there?

HC #44 states that King Arthur was the greatest of all of the champions that arose to combat Necromon when he'd make his periodic bids for power on Earth-616.  Perhaps that brought him to Merlyn's attention.  CB #35 says that Merlyn's "powers and counsel made Camelot the brightest of shining jewels".  Why would he bother?  Possibly because he needed Arthur's help in constantly thwarting Necromon.

But, WAS HE "MERLIN"?  

Merlyn says "I walked *your Earth* disguised as a mortal magician in the court of King Arthur!"  This blows a hole in Don Campbell's theory that Merlyn was the alternate "Merlin" of Otherworld's alternate Camelot.  However, the word "disguised" could be taken to mean that "Merlin" was the pre-existing wizard of Camelot, and Merlyn took his place for a time, impersonating him the same way the Maha Yogi did.  CB #35's quote, "I dwelled on Earth as the wizard, Merlin!" backs up that notion, making it sound like they are two different people.  Merlyn has shown the ability to shape-change / cast illusions, so this is not unreasonable.

Don points us to an issue of Eternals where Merlin is shown as someone who only knew a few parlor tricks; hardly someone capable of making Camelot "the brightest of shining jewels".  Perhaps Merlyn DID step in and take Merlin's place, simply to goose Camelot to the power level needed to effectively combat Necromon.

Finally, CB #35's flashback wraps up with Merlyn's decision to leave Camelot.  "Peace and brotherhood fell victim to greed and lust  then to war and destruction!"  This is likely the fall of Camelot, the whole Arthur-Guinevere-Lancelot triangle (that I don't think has actually been covered in any Marvel Comic).  Merlyn then decides "I shall return to my star-home, where waits my daughter, Roma!"  (Knowing, as we do now, that Merlyn is from another dimension rather than "the stars", we can safely assume that comment to refer to his Starlight Citadel.)

Now, this flashback, showing that Merlyn left Camelot only when things started to fall apart, implies that he wasn't just an impersonator  he was there for the long haul.  On the other hand, it's inconsistent with other comics that show Merlin to have been placed in suspended animation after the fall of Camelot.  However, Merlyn has faked his own death before, and could have faked putting himself in suspended animation.  Certainly when reunited with King Arthur in Otherworld, Arthur seemed to know all about Merlyn's Otherworldly nature.  HC #44 states that Arthur's wisdom "pierced the mists of Otherworld"  this implies that Arthur learned Merlyn's true origins.  Whether he learned that his court magician was from another dimension, or he learned that his court magician was BEING IMPERSONATED BY someone from another dimension, is unclear  but regardless, he seems to treat him as a valued long-time ally.  (Heck, he carried his coffin!  That's not something a king does for a sporadic impersonator.)

At Merlyn's funeral, he is called "firstborn of the devil".  Now, it IS possible that Merlyn was, on his world, spawn of a demon and an earthwoman, just like Merlin the magician was on our Earth, and the two are alternate-universe versions of each other (explaining their name similarity).  But the "coincidence gap" is closing.  Merlin the magician, of the court of Camelot, was repeatedly impersonated by both an Otherworldly immortal AND a mad mutant (the Maha Yogi)?  Both Merlin and Merlyn have the same claimed parentage?  King Arthur is deeply respectful of one of the two impersonators?

I think the inferences are quite clear.  Heck, it's basically stated flat-out, but I think that the WAY it's stated, and the inferences that surround the statements, overrule the conflicting evidence from, what, TWO US books?

Namor #62  it's possible that Merlyn came to Earth-616's Avalon Island and took the name Myrradin in order to move the pawns into place that would result in the creation of Morgan Le Fey, a powerful enemy who would over time "toughen up" Arthur.  We didn't witness the BIRTH of Myrradin, after all, and Merlyn can use his shapeshifting / illusion powers to simulate aging if need be.

Iron Man #150  it's possible that Merlyn falsified his suspended animation, just as he falsified his death in MWoM #9, and left for his "star-home" as CB #35-FB states.  Iron Man #250, that seems to confirm the validity of Merlin's suspended animation, is set in an alternate, *possible* future.  Nothing in it is set in stone  for all we know, that could be the Maha Yogi, suspended by Merlyn in that timeline as a ruse.

It's nearing 2 am and I fear this post is getting less and less rational, but I'm very anxious to hear feedback from others.  The way I see it, even if we can't agree that Merlyn actually WAS Merlin, we certainly have to agree that he spent quite a lot of time in the court of Camelot on Earth-616.

Tying up other loose ends:

The last time the Black Knight saw King Arthur was at Merlyn's funeral.  Many years later, in Heroes for Hire, the Black Knight is taken to his tomb and doesn't say a word (like "hey, he's alive" for example).  It's entirely possible that, at Merlyn's funeral, Arthur  who seemingly raised HIMSELF from the dead in HC #59  confided in Dane his desire to return to death, to the earth of Avalon, now that Merlyn was gone  to slumber again until his proper, prophesized resurrection/reincarnation.  I can't think of a better (or, indeed, ANY) explanation for the seeming contradiction between Arthur's state in HC/MSH2/MWoM and H4H.

Also, on the Modred/Mordred debate: while the Unofficial Appendix has seemingly decided that the "Modred" in HC was actually MoRdred, enemy of the Black Knight, there is more evidence that it is Modred, enemy of Merlin.  In HC, Modred seems to be much more focused on killing Merlyn than on the Black Knight, and in Captain America #305-306, a being that we've decided is Merlyn deals with Modred as an established enemy.  I say we go with the spelling presented to us in the HC books and decide that the character in HC #1-63 is actually Modred, as he claims to be.

Don Campbell, I await your reply especially.  Please let me know if any parts of my write-up are unclear or confusing  I'd be happy to clarify them.

-Jeph!

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On the other hand...
Posted by Jeph! on April 28, 2003 at 11:26:49:
In Reply to: the Merlyn Report
posted by Jeph! on April 28, 2003 at 00:39:43:

See, that's what I get for writing a lengthy post at 2 am.  I was hoping for a balanced discussion of all the factors and a weighing of the evidence, but about 2/3 of the way through I got really tired and just tunnel-visioned on my original opinion.

Let me try this again.  Illusion and misdirection aside, I feel that this one point -- totally undiscussed by us before -- is the best evidence yet that Merlyn WAS NOT the Merlin of Camelot.

In many realities, there are teams named "Excalibur", as seen in the Cross-Time Caper -- each time referencing Arthur's magical sword.  Captain UK mentions that she made a trip to Otherworld as well, along with Merlyn, who appeared to her as a man named Myrr.  Just as Merlyn appeared to our Captain Britain as Camelot's Merlin.

My point is, there is evidence that Arthurian legend exists in MOST realities, including ones which diverged from ours long before Camelot.  Merlyn seems to have created the Corps in the image of that legend, and takes the familiar shape of that reality's Arthurian magician (be it Merlin or Myrr or whatever name) in order to induct new Corps members into serving.

If Merlyn is running around to every reality posing as their Merlin-figure in order to recruit Corps members, what makes anyone think that his stint as "our" Merlin was REAL?

More to the point, if there's a "Merlin" native to every other reality, shouldn't there have been one native to Earth-616 as well?  One that Merlyn would have had to supplant?

Corps members from EVERY reality look up to Merlyn as "their" reality's Merlin, from their particular history's Arthurian legend.  ("The Daredevils" #1 shows Merlyn shapeshift into TWO different mage-shapes, a more sci-fi sorceror, and a giant bug.)  It seems unreasonable to argue that, yes, he posed as Merlins all across the Multiverse, but in OUR reality he really WAS Merlin.  Especially given that we have a peek into Earth-616's Merlin's past, courtesy of Namor #62.

However, as my previous post made clear, there IS evidence that Merlyn spent time on our Earth, and made friends with our Arthur -- likely because Necromon, patron-god of Merlyn's arch-enemy, kept attacking the "prime Earth", and only Arthur barred his path.  It's likely that Merlyn was manipulating Arthur to fight Necromon in his stead, just as he manipulated Captain Britain to fight the Fury, Jaspers, and Necrom in his stead.

Merlyn appeared to Arthur "disguised ... as the wizard, Merlin" and leant him assistance against Necromon, making Camelot "the brightest of shining jewels", but "Arthur's wisdom pierced the mists of Otherworld", and he learned of Merlyn's true nature.  The two became friends and allies anyway, and Merlyn returned Arthur's true court magician, possibly only visiting temporarily after that point.  When the Fall of Camelot came, Otherworld's Merlyn must have dropped by to offer counsel (possibly in a different guise), but eventually left for his "star-home", and Earth-616's Merlin placed himself in suspended animation to await the rebirth of Arthur.

This leaves Earth-616's Merlin in the unenviable position of being constantly impersonated by TWO powerful beings, but them's the breaks.  Don's issue of Eternals shows him as being rather ineffectual, anyway.

So -- I hereby reverse my opinion.  Merlyn of Otherworld is likely a different being than Merlin of Camelot-616.  However, given that both share the same parentage, it's not unlikely that Merlyn is the cross-time analog of every other reality's "Merlin" figure.  (And his age difference has nothing to do with it -- Excalibur #42-47 made clear that not all cross-time analogs have to live at the same time as their counterparts ... the vaguerities of fate and breeding can lead to much variety across the multiverse, and Merlyn of Otherworld could very easily have been born centuries before all of his other counterparts.)

-Jeph!

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Re: On the other hand...
Posted by Don Campbell on May 13, 2003 at 16:19:55:
In Reply to: On the other hand...
posted by Jeph! on April 28, 2003 at 11:26:49:

> My point is, there is evidence that Arthurian legend exists in MOST realities, including ones which diverged from ours long before Camelot.  Merlyn seems to have created the Corps in the image of that legend, and takes the familiar shape of that reality's Arthurian magician (be it Merlin or Myrr or whatever name) in order to induct new Corps members into serving.

> If Merlyn is running around to every reality posing as their Merlin-figure in order to recruit Corps members, what makes anyone think that his stint as "our" Merlin was REAL?

Good point, one that I hadn't even considered.

> More to the point, if there's a "Merlin" native to every other reality, shouldn't there have been one native to Earth-616 as well?  One that Merlyn would have had to supplant?

> Corps members from EVERY reality look up to Merlyn as "their" reality's Merlin, from their particular history's Arthurian legend.  ("The Daredevils" #1 shows Merlyn shapeshift into TWO different mage-shapes, a more sci-fi sorceror, and a giant bug.)  It seems unreasonable to argue that, yes, he posed as Merlins all across the Multiverse, but in OUR reality he really WAS Merlin.  Especially given that we have a peek into Earth-616's Merlin's past, courtesy of Namor #62.

> However, as my previous post made clear, there IS evidence that Merlyn spent time on our Earth, and made friends with our Arthur -- likely because Necromon, patron-god of Merlyn's arch-enemy, kept attacking the "prime Earth", and only Arthur barred his path.  It's likely that Merlyn was manipulating Arthur to fight Necromon in his stead, just as he manipulated Captain Britain to fight the Fury, Jaspers, and Necrom in his stead.

> Merlyn appeared to Arthur "disguised ... as the wizard, Merlin" and leant him assistance against Necromon, making Camelot "the brightest of shining jewels", but "Arthur's wisdom pierced the mists of Otherworld", and he learned of Merlyn's true nature.  The two became friends and allies anyway, and Merlyn returned Arthur's true court magician, possibly only visiting temporarily after that point.  When the Fall of Camelot came, Otherworld's Merlyn must have dropped by to offer counsel (possibly in a different guise), but eventually left for his "star-home", and Earth-616's Merlin placed himself in suspended animation to await the rebirth of Arthur.

Two points.  First, I dislike the idea that King Arthur would ever allow himself to become friends with Merlyn if the latter had truly abducted and  replaced Arthur's trusted advisor against his will.  Of course, if Merlyn had had Merlin's permission to impersonate him, that would be different.  King Arthur may have known of the Merlin/Merlyn alliance from the start or only learned about it later.  In either case, I don't think Arthur would have been as predisposed to distrust Merlyn-the-secret-ally as I feel he would have been against Merlyn-the-kidnapper.  Second, as recounted in IRON MAN #150, Merlin-616 entered suspended animation sometime in the final year of Arthur's reign, after he had imprisoned Morgan Le Fay within her castle but before the Fall of Camelot.  During the final battle he appeared to the Black Knight as no more that an image, probably his astral self.

> This leaves Earth-616's Merlin in the unenviable position of being constantly impersonated by TWO powerful beings, but them's the breaks.

I also dislike the idea that Merlin-616 allowed his identity to be stolen by two different beings.  It's for that reason that I prefer the idea that Merlin-616 and Merlyn were working together in a mutual defence pact against the forces of Necomon and that it was as part of this pact that Merlin-616 WILLINGLY allowed Merlyn to impersonate him at Camelot (while he went to Otherworld to increase his knowledge of magic?).

> Don's issue of Eternals shows him as being rather ineffectual, anyway.

The Marvel Handbook's entry for Sersi claims that the Merlin in Eternals #4 was actually the mutant later known as the Maha Yogi.  However, since that information has appeared only in the Handbook and not in any actual story, that idea must be considered as-yet-unconfirmed.

> So -- I hereby reverse my opinion.  Merlyn of Otherworld is likely a different being than Merlin of Camelot-616.  However, given that both share the same parentage, it's not unlikely that Merlyn is the cross-time analog of every other reality's "Merlin" figure.

While I totally agree that Merlyn and Merlin are different beings, the idea that they share the same parentage or are cross-time analogs of each other seems to be rather unlikely.  If we accept NAMOR #62 as accurate, then we know the true origin of Merlin-616 is that he was born Myraddin on Ruta Island in the Fifth Century.  Every other "fact" about Merlin, such as the legends listed in the Marvel Handbook, must therefore be considered false or at least unconfirmed, and that includes the idea that he is the son of a demon and a noblewoman.  On the other hand, almost nothing about Merlyn's origin has been revealed.  The most we've ever learned came from EXCALIBUR #50 in which Merlyn revealed that he, Necrom and Feron were members of the same race (with pointed ears and no eyebrows) who were not native to Earth-616.  Even if this information is accurate, it still leaves much unrevealed about Merlyn's race.  For example, what do they call themselves?  Do they originate on an alternate Earth?  Do they all possess magical abilities?  Are they all "immortal" (the first Feron wasn't)?

Of course, there can be remarkable simularities between counterparts...even if they are from different species.  EXCALIBUR #51 featured the Excalibur team from Earth 99476, an alternate Earth inhabited by sentient dinosaurs.  Despite the fact that this Earth must have diverged from the prime Earth about 65 million years ago (with the NON-extinction of the dinosaurs), this story depicted at least nineteen characters who had the same (or very similar) names, powers and biographies as their Earth-616 counterparts...except, of course, that they were dinosaurs instead of humans.  Nightcrawler's counterpart, Nightstrutter, even exclaimed in German.  So I suppose that Merlyn could come from an alternate Earth where the dominant species was not-quite-human and Merlyn could still have counterparts on various alternate Earths, even if none of them were of exactly the same species.  However, this idea doesn't sit well with me, possibly because the whole "dinosaur Excalibur" story struck me as too far-fetched (even though I did enjoy reading it).

> And his age difference has nothing to do with it -- Excalibur #42-47 made clear that not all cross-time analogs have to live at the same time as their counterparts ... the vaguerities of fate and breeding can lead to much variety across the multiverse, and Merlyn of Otherworld could very easily have been born centuries before all of his other counterparts.

Speaking of Merlyn's age, there is a "fact" that I think has been overlooked.  In EXCALIBUR #48 we are introduced to the modern-day Feron and some of the things we learn about him seem to relate to Merlyn.  One of the monks reminds Feron that he is the "last of a thousand generations charged as sentinels" to await the rise of the Anti-Phoenix.  Feron himself later mentions "the first Feron--he who survived the Great Deluge."  Since the Great Deluge is, in the Marvel Universe, just another name for the Great Cataclysm which sank Atlantis and Lemuria, that seems to suggest that Feron was on Earth-616 about 20,000 years ago.  That in turn suggests that that was when Necrom and Merlyn came to Earth-616 as well.

One last thing.  The Marvel Appendix website has just put up a new profile for "Merlin/Merlyn" by Loki and Snood which seems to favour the idea that Merlin of Camelot and Merlyn of Otherworld are one and the same.  They alllow for the possibility that they are different characters but the profile is written as if there was only one character involved.  You can find it at:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/merlinyn.htm

Don Campbell

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Re: the Merlyn Report
Posted by Don Campbell on May 08, 2003 at 17:01:36:
In Reply to: the Merlyn Report
posted by Jeph! on April 28, 2003 at 00:39:43:

A couple of opening statements. First, my thanks to Jeph! for doing this write-up since it lists many facts which I would otherwise never have known. Second, while there is serious evidence of there being (at least) a link between Merlyn and Merlin-616, there is nothing conclusive that would change the mind of someone (like me) who believes that they were separate beings.

> There's very little to tie him to Arthurian legend, except for a few stray claims back when all of his writers assumed he was simply the Merlin of Camelot.

> In the end, though, I suspect that all we should aim for is an MCP notation that Merlyn CLAIMS to be the Merlin of Earth-616 legend. 

I have no problem with the MCP doing that...until such time as somebody at Marvel (hopefully someone who actually CARES about continuity) writes a story that reveals the "truth" about Merlyn's connection to Merlin.

> The next time we see Merlyn is over the course of the "Black Knight" epic in Hulk Comic #1-63 (more accurately, Hulk Comic #1, 3-30, 42-55 and 57-63.  The story is 148 pages, spread out over 50 issues, and it's quite annoying to read 3 pages at a time, I tell you).

I really wish that Marvel would get the idea of reprinting those stories for the benefit of non-British readers.  When I first heard of the "X-Men Archives featuring Captain Britain" project, I had hoped that the "Black Knight" stories would be among them but alas, 'twas not to be.

> In #5, the Black Knight recognizes their attacker, Modred, by face.  This implies that he IS the same Modred the Mystic as on the MCP.

It could also be just yet another example of the misspelling of MoRdred's name.  If you check DEFENDERS #11, you'll see that the name of the character who killed the original Black Knight is also misspelt "Modred" - even though there is no doubt that he was meant to be King Arthur's foe from Camelot, "MoRdred."  And since Dane had already fought MoRdred twice before, first in the 20th Century and then in the late 12th Century, he would of course recognize "Modred" (even if he somehow forgot how to pronounce his name).  As for the REAL Modred the Mystic, I'm sure that he and Dane Whitman have, so far, never met.

As I see it, there are three possible ways to explain this name confusion.  First, Modred the Evil Walker is actually the same character as Modred the Mystic. The problem with that idea is that Modred the Mystic is known to have been in suspended animation for about fifteen centuries, from sometime before the fall of Camelot in the 6th Century until he was accidentally awakened in the late 20th Century.  Also, since Modred is known to have been only a young apprentice when he was cursed by the Darkhold, it seems unlikely that he could have been a Walker then as well.

Second, Modred the Evil Walker is actually the same character as Sir MoRdred, a.k.a. Mordred the Evil, from the court of Camelot and the writer misspelt his name (as has happened before).  The problem with that idea is that Mordred is known to have died during the fall of Camelot from mortal wounds inflicted by his father, King Arthur (although Mordred did manage to stay alive long enough to stab the original Black Knight in the back).  According to the Master Edition of the Marvel Handbook, Mordred's spirit was "revived from death by Celtic 'nether gods' in the 20th Century" and went on to battle Dane Whitman, first in MARVEL SUPER-HEROES (Vol. 1) #17 and then in DEFENDERS #11.  This seems to imply that Mordred was both dead and inactive between the 6th and 20th Centuries whereas the evil Walker was apparently actively serving Necromon.  Or have I read too much into your review?

Third, Modred the Evil Walker is actually a DIFFERENT character from BOTH Modred the Mystic and MoRdred the Evil.  Maybe Modred was a common name in the Sixth Century?  Of course, that leaves us with the problem of how the Black Knight could recognize "Modred" if he'd never met him.  By the way, in terms of their appearances, I believe that Modred the Evil Walker was depicted as having dark hair with a dark beard and mustache.  That would mean he looked like MoRdred has always been depicted but UNLIKE Modred the Mystic, who has always been shown as clean-shaven with white hair (and whited-out eyes).

> In #44, Merlyn goes on to say that while Arthur WAS buried in Avalon, dark forces have recently stolen and hidden his remains somewhere on Otherworld.

This statement seems to imply that Avalon and Otherworld are not the same place...which will come as a shock to those at the Marvel Appendix web-site. Or is it possible that Avalon is part of Otherworld and Merlyn is saying that dark forces have hidden Arthur's remains somewhere ELSE on Otherworld?

> #57 shows an ocean dotted with islands, implying that Otherworld is a regular planet just like Earth, rather than some mystical land with no clear borders.

That doesn't necessarily mean that Otherworld is an alternate Earth but I'm willing to accept the idea that it is.  Still, I can't help wishing for a story that had EXPLICITLY stated that "fact".

> Now, the main villain in the "Hulk Comic" run was named NecromON, a nether-god.  Is it possible that Necromon was the patron god of Necrom, and a similarly evil force?  In Excalibur, Necrom is trying to gain control of all realities in the Multiverse.  In Hulk Comic, Necrom is trying to gain control of Otherworld and the "prime Earth".

When I first read about Necromon, I wondered at the similarity to Necrom.  It seemed rather careless for Alan Davis to use a name that was so similar to an earlier character who had previously been presented as Merlyn's arch-enemy.  I accept the possibility of a connection between Necromon and Necrom but I'm not sure which of them was supposed to be stronger.  After all, Merlyn managed to keep Necromon in check for centuries using only the knights of Camelot but he created the whole CB Corps to guard against Necrom.  I'm also unclear as to which of them was Merlyn's enemy the longest.  When the energy matrix was created, Necrom was the Sorcerer Supreme of their (his and Merlyn's) race and I got the impression that Merlyn was possibly Necrom's apprentice but definitely his inferior, at least in terms of power, until Merlyn took control of the energy matrix.  It was presumably only after Merlyn established Otherworld as his empire that Necromon became his enemy.

> For someone who runs a Corps that patrols every known reality in the Multiverse, he sure seems dependant on Captain Britain.  Perhaps it's because Earth-616 is the "prime Earth"?  Perhaps that's why he focused so much on the Camelot that arose there?

I agree with you that Earth-616 had a special part to play in Merlyn's plans but that still doesn't mean that he was Merlin.

> Merlyn says "I walked *your Earth* disguised as a mortal magician in the court of King Arthur!"  This blows a hole in Don Campbell's theory that Merlyn was the alternate "Merlin" of Otherworld's alternate Camelot.  However, the word "disguised" could be taken to mean that "Merlin" was the pre-existing wizard of Camelot, and Merlyn took his place for a time, impersonating him the same way the Maha Yogi did.  CB #35's quote, "I dwelled on Earth as the wizard, Merlin!" backs up that notion, making it sound like they are two different people.  Merlyn has shown the ability to shape-change / cast illusions, so this is not unreasonable.

When I first read this paragraph I was SURE that I had never suggested anything like that.  Then I checked the web board and found that I HAD done so.  However, the idea that Merlyn and Merlin were counterparts of each other came from Loki.

> Don points us to an issue of Eternals where Merlin is shown as someone who only knew a few parlor tricks; hardly someone capable of making Camelot "the brightest of shining jewels".

From the Marvel Handbook's entry for Sersi: "It is also known that Sersi visited Camelot during the reign of King Arthur Pendragon. There she helped expose the imposture of the mutant now known as the Maha Yogi, who was at that time impersonating the then-missing sorcerer Merlin."  Presumably this is meant to explain away that panel in ETERNALS where Merlin looked like a very poor magician.  However, I'm not aware of any story since then which has depicted this event so the idea that it was really the Maha Yogi whom Sersi showed up remains unconfirmed.

> Now, this flashback, showing that Merlyn left Camelot only when things started to fall apart, implies that he wasn't just an impersonator  he was there for the long haul.  On the other hand, it's inconsistent with other comics that show Merlin to have been placed in suspended animation after the fall of Camelot.  However, Merlyn has faked his own death before, and could have faked putting himself in suspended animation.  Certainly when reunited with King Arthur in Otherworld, Arthur seemed to know all about Merlyn's Otherworldly nature.  HC #44 states that Arthur's wisdom "pierced the mists of Otherworld"  this implies that Arthur learned Merlyn's true origins.  Whether he learned that his court magician was from another dimension, or he learned that his court magician was BEING IMPERSONATED BY someone from another dimension, is unclear  but regardless, he seems to treat him as a valued long-time ally.  (Heck, he carried his coffin!  That's not something a king does for a sporadic impersonator.)

First, IRON MAN #150 revealed that Merlin had entered a state of suspended animation BEFORE the fall of Camelot.  Second, I'm not thinking of Merlyn as someone who "impersonated" Merlin without Merlin or Arthur knowing about it.  I'm inclined to think that Merlin of Camelot was acting as Merlyn of Otherworld's agent on Earth-616 and that part of his "job description" was to allow Merlyn to sometimes take his place at Camelot, presumably in order to deal with things involving Necromon and his schemes.  Whether King Arthur knew of this alliance from the start or found out about it later, he would probably have decided to keep the existence of the "two Merlins" a secret from the court of Camelot because of the possibilty of his enemies learning of the situation and using it against him.

> At Merlyn's funeral, he is called "firstborn of the devil".

There's a simple explanation.  Remember that many of the Captain Britain Corps attended Merlyn's funeral in Otherworld, presumably at Roma's invitation.  Her calling him the "firstborn of the devil" may have just been a subtle way of reinforcing the idea that he was the "Merlin" of Arthurian legend that he had led many of them to believe he was. After all, it was his funeral and it wouldn't have been very tactful of Roma to choose that moment to reveal that her father had gained the trust of the Corps members by TRICKING them, right?

> Merlin the magician, of the court of Camelot, was repeatedly impersonated by both an Otherworldly immortal AND a mad mutant (the Maha Yogi)?  King Arthur is deeply respectful of one of the two impersonators?

As I mentioned before, if Merlyn sometimes took Merlin's place at the court of Camelot with the latter's knowledge/permission, that doesn't make the sorcerer look any worse than he already did for letting the "mad mutant" impersonate him.  And if King Arthur knew of the Merlin-Merlyn situation, he would have had ample opportunity to get to know Merlyn and come to respect him on his own terms and not as a "Merlin impersonator."

> Namor #62  it's possible that Merlyn came to Earth-616's Avalon Island and took the name Myrradin in order to move the pawns into place that would result in the creation of Morgan Le Fey, a powerful enemy who would over time "toughen up" Arthur.  We didn't witness the BIRTH of Myrradin, after all, and Merlyn can use his shapeshifting / illusion powers to simulate aging if need be.

That seems a bit complicated but, since we've seen Merlyn involved in manipulations of equal (or greater) complexity in the past, I suppose it could be possible...but I'd still rather have Merlyn be a different being than Myrradin/Merlin.

> Iron Man #150  it's possible that Merlyn falsified his suspended animation, just as he falsified his death in MWoM #9, and left for his "star-home" as CB #35-FB states.  Iron Man #250, that seems to confirm the validity of Merlin's suspended animation, is set in an alternate, *possible* future.  Nothing in it is set in stone  for all we know, that could be the Maha Yogi, suspended by Merlyn in that timeline as a ruse.

Two things.  First, just because IM #250 is set in an alternate, *possible* future doesn't have any effect on the validity of revelations made about events in the distant past.  The validity could only be questioned if the timeline diverged from the mainstream timeline sometime before the events of IM #150, and the fact that the reborn Arthur remembers details of Iron Man's visit to Camelot suggests that any divergence took place after IM #150.  Second, while the Merlin of 2093 was rather non-medievial in speech, dress and attitude, it seems completely reasonable that he just adapted to the changes he found in the world to which he awakened.  I have no reason to suspect the involvement of the Maha Yogi who has always acted in a selfish and malevolent manner.

> The way I see it, even if we can't agree that Merlyn actually WAS Merlin, we certainly have to agree that he spent quite a lot of time in the court of Camelot on Earth-616.

I have absolutely no problem with that idea.

> The last time the Black Knight saw King Arthur was at Merlyn's funeral.  Many years later, in Heroes for Hire, the Black Knight is taken to his tomb and doesn't say a word (like "hey, he's alive" for example).  It's entirely possible that, at Merlyn's funeral, Arthur  who seemingly raised HIMSELF from the dead in HC #59  confided in Dane his desire to return to death, to the earth of Avalon, now that Merlyn was gone  to slumber again until his proper, prophesized resurrection/reincarnation.  I can't think of a better (or, indeed, ANY) explanation for the seeming contradiction between Arthur's state in HC/MSH2/MWoM and H4H.

A very good explanation.  We can only hope that the next Marvel writer to use a current incarnation of King Arthur in a story will use your idea.

> Don Campbell, I await your reply especially.  Please let me know if any parts of my write-up are unclear or confusing  I'd be happy to clarify them.

Sorry for the delay.  I read your posts the day you made them but Canadian Income Tax returns were due April 30th and I, as usual, had put off doing them for as long as possible.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Husk, Monet and The Multiple Man
Posted by Alex Grecian on April 29, 2003 at 08:59:43:

Hi! I'm trying to figure out the final fates (or at least the current status of three characters: Paige Guthrie (Husk), Monet (I think it was established that she was actually twin girls, but what happened to them?) and Jaimie Maddrox (The Multiple Man). Though it doesn't appear in the Chronology Project (yet), I seem to recall that he was killed off in a fairly recent issue of the "New" Xmen. Am I way off? Can anyone help, please? I haven't kept up with Xmen continuity. Thank you.

-Alex

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Re: Husk, Monet and The Multiple Man
Posted by Jeph! on April 29, 2003 at 10:19:06:
In Reply to: Husk, Monet and The Multiple Man
posted by Alex Grecian on April 29, 2003 at 08:59:43:

X-head to the rescue!

> Paige Guthrie (Husk)

A current character in "Uncanny X-Men".

> Monet

Last seen in Uncanny #410-412.  A member of the Paris branch of X-Corps.

> (I think it was established that she was actually twin girls, but what happened to them?)

The twins have the ability to merge with each other and IMPERSONATE Monet.  The "Monet" we knew from Gen-X #1-31 WAS those twins, covering for the fact that the REAL Monet had been transformed into the Penance creature by their evil brother Emplate.

In Gen-X #40 the girls ALL merged, and switched places: Monet got her own body back, and the twins became trapped in the Penance body.

In Gen-X #57, the twins escaped the Penance body, which then somehow gained a life of its own.  The twins haven't been seen since that story arc, which was in Gen-X #57-59.  They live with their father, as does the "new", independant Penance.

> Jaimie Maddrox (The Multiple Man).

Last seen in New X-Men #128-130.

> I seem to recall that he was killed off in a fairly recent issue of the "New" Xmen.

Well, SOME of him were.  But not all of him.  ;-)

Hope that helped.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Captain Britain problem - help, anyone?
Posted by Jeph! on April 29, 2003 at 12:53:15:

I just received my final issue of "Hulk Comic" in the mail from England ... I now have a complete run.  Yay!  However, reading the chapter of the "Black Knight" story in that comic (#60) made me realize that some assumptions I've made in Captain Britain's chronology -- assumptioms that have made it into the MCP -- can't work.

In HC #60/2, King Arthur sends CB off to Earth-238 in the *middle* of the battle for Camelot.  The scene in M/SH2 #377 where we see CB being sent to Earth-238 is NOT a new scene, as I'd always thought, but a flashback to HC #60/2.

This means that CB and the Black Knight can't appear in "Contest of Champions" in the gap after HC #63/2, the end of the Camelot arc -- because CB was already gone to another Earth at that point!

So I'm working on alternate places to put the COC series.  It has to be in a relatively small gap between the time that CB and the Black Knight meet and CB regains his memory, and when they cross into Otherworld -- somewhere between HC #11-20, I think.  It shouldn't really be a problem, seeing as time is stopped for the duration of the COC series.

However, I now need to re-place CB's appearance in Hulk #250.  Now, this COULD take place during that same gap, after CB regains his memory, but from what I know a LOT of time elapses between H2 #250 and COC #1.

So, I was thinking that he could appear there BEFORE he loses his memory -- which would mean BEFORE he travels to the USA in M/TU #65.

However, M/TU #66 definitively takes place before H2 #250 -- well after.  Spider-Man appears in M/TU #66 and THEN M/TU @2, with the Hulk, and the Hulk appears in H2 #250 AFTER M/TU @2.  So that won't work either.

Can someone who has the Hulk books in question let me know exactly how much time passes between H2 #250 and COC #1 (which occurs between H2 #268 and 269)?

Also, can someone with knowledge of British cities help me out?  In the HC run, CB is in Cornwall.  In H2 #250, he appears in the shadow of what APPEARS to be Big Ben, placing him, where, in London?

Is that actually Big Ben?  Or can it just be some building with a big clock in Cornwall?  Is London near Cornwall at all?  Please let me know.

Thanks in advance...

-Jeph!

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Re: Captain Britain problem - help, anyone?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on April 29, 2003 at 22:01:04:
In Reply to: Captain Britain problem - help, anyone?
posted by Jeph! on April 29, 2003 at 12:53:15:

> However, I now need to re-place CB's appearance in Hulk #250.  Now, this COULD take place during that same gap, after CB regains his memory, but from what I know a LOT of time elapses between H2 #250 and COC #1.

> Can someone who has the Hulk books in question let me know exactly how much time passes between H2 #250 and COC #1 (which occurs between H2 #268 and 269)?

Jeph, in my Avengers Calendar, I have H2 250 ending in March, and COC 1 occurring 15 months later, in June of the following year.

--Paul

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Re: Captain Britain problem - help, anyone?
Posted by Andy Holcombe on April 29, 2003 at 22:19:20:
In Reply to: Captain Britain problem - help, anyone?
posted by Jeph! on April 29, 2003 at 12:53:15:

> Can someone who has the Hulk books in question let me know exactly how much time passes between H2 #250 and COC #1 (which occurs between H2 #268 and 269)?

I don't have access to H2 #250-260 right now, but I don't think you can put both of the Captain Britian appearances in that gap if the time frame for Captain Britian is as small as you're making it out to be, unless you want to call the time period topical.  I don't know the story you're talking about, so I don't know if this is something you want to do.  The Hulk travels all over the US including to see the 3-D Man and Woodgod, goes to Israel, Egypt, the Soviet Union, Japan, and several other places.  the opening caption of #261 says that the Hulk has swam for days since leaving Japan before seeing Easter Island.  A day passes in #261 on Easter Island.  A minimum of three in #262 in and around Malibu, California.  The Hulk! #26/1 needs a day and a night in New York City.  #26/3 (not counting the piece on Hulk toys) starts out saying it has rained for most of the past week.  There wasn't any rain in the first two stories, but nothing says Banner's in the same area.  The story needs a day and a night.  #26/2 needs three somewhere in New York State, but the first day could be the same as the following day from #26/3.    Hulk! #27/1 starts out at night, possibly the same night following #26/2 but nothing close to conclusive.  Then, there's a three day gap.  The Hulk important parts of Dazzler #6-7 take place over a day and that night in upstate New York.  H2 #263-265 take place in and outside LA during one night.  According to "Satan," six days pass during Defenders #98-100, but I don't think that's necessarily so.  Defenders #101 takes place the night after #100.  A night, plus enough time to get from New York to the Mid-West (including some Banner hitch-hicking) is needed for H@10.  Defenders #107 needs a night.  All Defenders appearances are either in New York (City or State) or an alternate dimension of some sort (Asgard, Squadron Supreme, etc.).  Defenders #108-109 (and the Hulk relevant parts of #110-111) take place in various other dimensions, so the time flow is a little weird, but the Defenders return to Earth during the day.  According to Vera Cantor, it's been weeks since Defenders #105 (Defenders #105 was set around Christmas; #109 in April).  Avengers Annual #11 needs about a day.  Defenders #112-115 need about a day as well since they're in alternate dimensions.  There is a time gap between the Avengers Annual and the Defenders issues.  H2 #266-268 need about a day a piece back in the American Southwest.  The Hulk! #27/2 (not counting the text piece) takes place over the course of one night in Las Vegas, Nevada.  And none of this takes into consideration of the time flow in the rest of the Marvel Universe.

			*	*	*

Re: Captain Britain problem - help, anyone?
Posted by Jeph! on April 30, 2003 at 00:21:11:
In Reply to: Re: Captain Britain problem - help, anyone?
posted by Andy Holcombe on April 29, 2003 at 22:19:20:

> I don't think you can put both of the Captain Britian appearances in that gap if the time frame for Captain Britian is as small as you're making it out to be, unless you want to call the time period topical.

Yeah -- according to CB, his adventures in HC #1-25 only take "weeks".  Hmm.

The other possibility is that I could put H2 #250 during CB's time as an amnesiac -- HC #42-44 tell us he was an amnesiac in Cornwall for "years", and he was wearing his costume the whole time.  All we see of him in H2 #250 is him skulking in a corner under a large clock ... he doesn't say or do anything to show us thet he DOESN'T have amnesia.

I may have to do things that way.

> ...And none of this takes into consideration of the time flow in the rest of the Marvel Universe.

... You couldn't, you know, total that up for me?  :-)

-Jeph!

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Re: Captain Britain problem - help, anyone?
Posted by Andy Holcombe on April 30, 2003 at 00:58:23:
In Reply to: Re: Captain Britain problem - help, anyone?
posted by Jeph! on April 30, 2003 at 00:21:11:

> > ...And none of this takes into consideration of the time flow in the rest of the Marvel Universe.

> ... You couldn't, you know, total that up for me?  

Not no, but Hell no.  You'll take what you get and like it.

Seriously, even if I wanted to, I couldn't since I only have Avengers, Defenders, X-Men Classic, New Mutants, Dazzler, Hulk!, and the Incredible Hulk at that point, although my runs of Fantastic Four, Marvel Two-in-One, and Iron Man do start during that time period, and I do have the Daredevil Visionaries: Frank Miller trade paperbacks.

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Re: Captain Britain problem - help, anyone?
Posted by Paul O'Brien on April 30, 2003 at 04:23:12:
In Reply to: Captain Britain problem - help, anyone?
posted by Jeph! on April 29, 2003 at 12:53:15:

>In H2 #250, he appears in the shadow of what APPEARS to be Big Ben, placing him, where, in London?

Big Ben is the clocktower on the Houses of Parliament, right in the centre of London.  (Strictly speaking, Big Ben is actually the bell inside the clocktower.)  I don't have a copy of the comic, but if the artist has drawn something appearing to be the Houses of Parliament then he unequivocally means London.  There is nothing in Cornwall which is going to be mistaken for the Palace of Westminster.

>Is London near Cornwall at all?  Please let me know.

Well, define near.  You could drive there inside of a day.

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Re: Captain Britain problem - help, anyone?
Posted by Jeph! on April 30, 2003 at 09:57:36:
In Reply to: Re: Captain Britain problem - help, anyone?
posted by Paul O'Brien on April 30, 2003 at 04:23:12:

> I don't have a copy of the comic, but if the artist has drawn something appearing to be the Houses of Parliament then he unequivocally means London.

All we see in H2 #250 is: the bottom half of a clock-face, approximately the height of a human or larger.  The clock-face is set onto a brown building, and there is a square niche below the clock-face where Captain Britain stands, crouched slightly.  No other buildings, and no sense of how far off the ground it is.

It's likely MEANT to be the Big Ben clocktower, given that, wheee, it was a cameo of Captain BRITAIN, but given the lack of evidence and the problems fitting this issue into CB's chronology, we may have to pretend it was just a shopfront in Cornwall with a big clock mounted on the second floor.

> There is nothing in Cornwall which is going to be mistaken for the Palace of Westminster.

Hmm.  I wonder if they have any big clocks, though.  (Churches?  Town square?)

> >Is London near Cornwall at all?

> Well, define near.  You could drive there inside of a day.

So an amnesiac superhero could fly there in a few hours?  (Then again, if he HAD amnesia, why would he?  Did he even know he could fly?  I have enough problems with the fact that he's wearing his mask -- something he apparently never did while he had amnesia.)

Thanks, Paul.

-Jeph!

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Re: Captain Britain problem - help, anyone?
Posted by Paul O'Brien on April 30, 2003 at 11:41:12:
In Reply to: Re: Captain Britain problem - help, anyone?
posted by Jeph! on April 30, 2003 at 09:57:36:

> All we see in H2 #250 is: the bottom half of a clock-face, approximately the height of a human or larger.  The clock-face is set onto a brown building, and there is a square niche below the clock-face where Captain Britain stands, crouched slightly.  No other buildings, and no sense of how far off the ground it is.

In that case I think you could reasonably assume that it could be any old clock tower.  I'm sure there must be a town hall in Truro or something like that.

>So an amnesiac superhero could fly there in a few hours?

Oh, sure.  It's not that far away.  Cornwall is the bottom left corner of the UK, basically.  According to thetrainline.co.uk, it's 4.5 hours by train from London.  And English trains ain't exactly fast.

			*	*	*

Savage Fists of Kung-Fu help!
Posted by Scott Dietsch on April 29, 2003 at 18:58:51:

Can anyone tell me exactly what issues are reprinted in the treasury-sized Savage Fists of Kung-Fu book? Steve Englehart tells of two issues on his website but I think he's just listing the stories that he wrote. 

			*	*	*

Captain Jean DeWolff
Posted by captamr on April 29, 2003 at 21:20:27:

PPTSS 107  110 tells the story of the Death of Jean DeWolff and showcases the early writing talents of Peter David. #107 is listed as DeWolffs final appearance but contains her dying memories in flashback form of her childhood days predating any of the events in her early history from M/TU 49 & 50. These scenes should account for her first appearance. Also, shouldnt a four part story titled after a character account for a BTS listing even if she doesnt appear?

Proposed correction:

DeWOLFF, JEAN
PPTSS 107  FB*
M/TU 49  FB
M/TU 50  FB
         :
         :
PPTSS 107
PPTSS 108  BTS*
PPTSS 109  BTS*
PPTSS 110  BTS*

Charlie
