PATRIOT...MARCY PEARSON...PESTILENCE II
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 02, 2003 at 18:23:40:

new entries marked **

PATRIOT/JEFF MACE
CA@ 6
**CA 284
CA 285

PEARSON, MARCY
IM 241
**IM 243
IM 246

PESTILENCE II
XF 25
**DD 252   pg 25/4
PP 35
XF 26

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#92

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Phoenix H2 455 & SS3 123 error
Posted by David Hall on June 03, 2003 at 23:13:01:

Hi, I just wanted to point out an error in Phoenix's chronology.

Phoenix
X '97-FB
X '97
UX 342
H2 455
SS3 123

If you look at Cyclops, Storm's chronology you will see that H2 455 and ss3 123 come before X'97 and UX 342.

Thanks!

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Apocalypse
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on June 04, 2003 at 11:28:34:

I think I found a couple of errors and missing entries in Apocalypse's chronology:

1) There is a flashback in INCREDIBLE HULK #456 showing young En Sabah Nur as a slave, which must be taking place in-between RISE OF APOCALYPSE #2 and #3.

2) The order of the flashbacks and historical scenes in X-FORCE #37, BLACK KNIGHT: EXODUS #1, INCREDIBLE HULK #457 and X-MEN: SEARCH FOR CYCLOPS, as presented in the current chronology, doesn't add up:

-- The first historical scene in H2 457 involves the ruler Akhenaten visiting Apocalypse (calling himself "Aten" at the time) in his temple.  According to historians Akhenaten ruled about 3,500 years ago, which would place the scene at around 1500 BC.

-- In the flashback in H2 457, said to have taken place "over a millennia [sic] ago," En Sabah Nur talks to Merenptha, a "young Egyptean prince" who has just "thwarted an invasion by the 'sea peoples.'"

Merenptah, according to historical sources, was born around 1265 BC.  Going by the story, I would say he appears to be around 20 when Apocalypse encounters him, which would place the flashback around 1245 BC.

The problem being, this doesn't really fit with the description "over a millennia [sic] ago," of course, since 1245 BC was almost three millennia ago.

Since the correct singular of millennia is "millennium," however, and since "one thousand years ago" would make no sense whatsoever here (both from a historical point of view and in terms of story structure), I think it's reasonable to presume that "over a millennia ago" is simply a typo, and was actually meant to be "over two millennia ago," which would be much closer to the mark.

One could ask PAD about this, of course. ;)

-- In the final historical scene in H2 457, said to be taking place in the "fourth century, B.C.," Alexander the Great stands before Apocalypse's temple and proclaims that he is Egypt's new Pharaoh.  In this instance, the reference fits, since Alexander conquered Egypt around 330 BC.

-- The flashback in X-FORCE #37 is listed way too early.  According to the comic, it takes place around 1150 ("in the middle of the twelfth century"), which places it AFTER all the flashbacks/ historical scenes in H2 457 and X:SC 1, and prior to BLACK KNIGHT: EXODUS #1.

-- In the flashback in X-MEN: SEARCH FOR CYCLOPS #1, said to be taking place "330 B.C.," Alexander the Great's armies are fighting the Egypteans.  Apocalypse enters the battlefield and starts fighting on the side of the invaders, telling them that he detests them for fighting one conqueror with the aid of another.

This flashback has to be placed shortly before the historical scene with Alexander the Great in H2 457, since the fighting was over by then, and Egypt conquered.

-- The flashback in X:SC 2, showing En Sabah Nur being hunted by a mob as a young man in "ancient Egypt," has to be taking place either between pages 6 and 7 of ROA 1 (a 17-year gap during which En Sabah Nur grows up as a member of the Sandstormers tribe) or in-between ROA 2 and ROA 3 (a much shorter gap, during which the young Nur is placed in the "pyramid project" by Logos, posing as a slave in order to be hidden from Pharaoh Rama-Tut and Ozymandias).

The former possibility makes more sense, in my opinion.

-- In BLACK KNIGHT: EXODUS #1, Dane Whitman's mind is trapped in the body of Eobar of Garrington.  Eobar's fellow Crusader, Bennett du Paris, talking of the "siege of Jerusalem," travels to Apocalypse's lair in Akkaba, Egypt, and is transformed into Exodus by Apocalypse.  This has to take place some time after 1191, which was when the Third Crusade (involving Richard Lionheart) came to its end.

3) Apocalypse's 19th century appearances (most taking place in 1859) also seem to be out of order.

-- The flashback in CABLE #50 cannot, as the chronology suggests, be taking place prior to C&P2 1, since it directly refers to Apocalypse's "recent defeat" at the hands of Cyclops and Phoenix in C&P 4.

Since Apocalypse also returns to hibernation at the end of C&P2 4, the flashback in C2 50 has to be placed in a gap between the pages of C&P2 4.  A gap which offers itself is the one between pages 17 and 19 of that issue.  Page 17 ends with Sinister teleporting himself and Apocalypse away from the fight.  Page 19 starts with a caption saying, "Soon... in the alien sanctuary deep beneath London...," after which Apocalypse goes back to "sleep."  The scene in C2 50 fits neatly in-between.

-- At least one of the three flashbacks in CABLE 1999, to 1899, 1859 and 1900, respectively, isn't correctly placed:

The flashback to 1859, which shows Nathaniel Essex's transformation into Sinister, is a retelling of a scene first seen in C&P2 3.

The flashback to 1899 shows how Apocalypse is awakened by Sinister from the hibernation he'd been in since the end of C&P2 4.

The flashback to 1900 shows the split between Apocalypse and Sinister, after Sinister has betrayed Apocalypse and infected him with a techno-organic virus.

4) There are some errors in the 20th century history:

-- CABLE #-1, in which Cable's initial arrival in the 20th century causes Apocalypse to awaken from yet another hibernation period, is missing.  That may be due to one of the MCP's gaps, though.

-- Apocalypse doesn't appear in THOR #373-374.  A behind-the-scenes appearance may be warranted, though, since these issues are part of the "Mutant Massacre" storyline, during which Angel's wings are injured.

-- Apocalypse also appears in CABLE #66 -- he inspects a bunch of earthworms at the remains of the Chernobyl nuclear plant, who have adapted to the radioactivity.  Again, this omission may be due to your gaps.

5) Finally, the chronology lists ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS AND PHOENIX #1-4.  However, Apocalypse's appearances in these issues occur in an alternate future which became a so-called "shadow timeline" when Apocalypse's plans were thwarted by Cable and the X-Men.  If they were ever considered to be a confirmed part of the 616 MU, they no longer are.

So, taking these revisions into account, I think Apocalypse's chronology would have to look like this (revisions marked with an asterisk):

*ROA 1
*X:SC 2-FB (mob scene)
*ROA 1
ROA 2
*H2 456-FB
ROA 3
ROA 3 ~ FF 19-BTS ~ DRSTR2 53-BTS ~ WCA2 22-BTS
ROA 4 ~ FF 19-BTS ~ DRSTR2 53-BTS ~ WCA2 22-BTS
ROA 4
*H2 457 (Akhenaten scene, 1500 BC)
*H2 457-FB (Merenptha scene, 1245 BC)
*X:SC 1-FB (Alexander the Great fight scene, 330 BC)
*H2 457 (Alexander the Great scene, 330 BC)
*XFOR 37-FB (around 1150)
*BK:E (after 1191)
C&P2 1
C&P2 2
C&P2 3 ~ C2 '99-FB (Sinister transformation scene)
*C&P2 4
*C2 50-FB (Harbinger scene)
*C&P2 4
C2 '99-FB (1899 scene)
C2 '99-FB (1900 scene)
*C2 -1 (awakening scene)
UX 119-FB-BTS
.
.
.
XF 10
*T 373-BTS
*T 374-BTS
XF 11
.
.
.
W2 145
*C2 66 (earthworm scene)
C2 67
C2 68
.
.
.
X:SC 4 (final entry)

Any thoughts?

Marc-Oliver Frisch

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Re: Apocalypse
Posted by Jeph! on June 04, 2003 at 17:02:49:
In Reply to: Apocalypse
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on June 04, 2003 at 11:28:34:

> Any thoughts?

Nice work!  I agree on all counts -- except, I don't think Apoc deserves a BTS credit for Thor #373-374.  The Massacre was (eventually revealed to be) Sinister's doing, not Apoc's.  He only stepped into Warren's life AFTER the Massacre.

-Jeph!

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Re: Apocalypse
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on June 05, 2003 at 05:36:24:
In Reply to: Re: Apocalypse
posted by Jeph! on June 04, 2003 at 17:02:49:

> Nice work!

Thanks!

> I agree on all counts -- except, I don't think Apoc deserves a BTS credit for Thor #373-374.  The Massacre was (eventually revealed to be) Sinister's doing, not Apoc's.  He only stepped into Warren's life AFTER the Massacre.

Depends on how you interpret "BTS," I guess.  I thought maybe they could count as BTS appearances because it's likely that Apocalypse was watching the Massacre -- and Warren in particular -- back then.

Marc-Oliver Frisch

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Re: Apocalypse
Posted by Jeph! on June 05, 2003 at 13:34:07:
In Reply to: Re: Apocalypse
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on June 05, 2003 at 05:36:24:

Until another book offers proof that Apocalypse was watching -- and by that, I mean standing around the corner watching, not watching on some monitor 500 miles away -- I'd play it safe and leave them out.

BTS notations, as I understand them, are only used when an unseen character is revealed to have had AN EFFECT on the story.  Even if Apoc WAS watching, unless he was revealed to have been RIGHT THERE in the Morlock Alley, it still shouldn't count as a BTS for him -- no more than it should count as a BTS for, say, the Watcher, who was surely watching as well.  ;-)

-Jeph!

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Re: Apocalypse
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on June 05, 2003 at 15:54:43:
In Reply to: Re: Apocalypse
posted by Jeph! on June 05, 2003 at 13:34:07:

> BTS notations, as I understand them, are only used when an unseen character is revealed to have had AN EFFECT on the story.  Even if Apoc WAS watching, unless he was revealed to have been RIGHT THERE in the Morlock Alley, it still shouldn't count as a BTS for him -- no more than it should count as a BTS for, say, the Watcher, who was surely watching as well.  ;-)

Good point.

(Although, strictly speaking, Apocalypse did have an effect on the story -- he's the reason why Sinister was alive at that stage, after all.   But you're right that it's not a DIRECT effect.)

Marc-Oliver Frisch 

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Re: Apocalypse
Posted by Mithrandir on July 05, 2003 at 12:14:43:
In Reply to: Re: Apocalypse
posted by Jeph! on June 05, 2003 at 13:34:07:

While I don't remember the exact issue, Apocalypse does actually enter the Alley during the Massacre to retrieve Plage as one of his future horsemen.  That certainly seems like evidence that he was watching to me.

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Re: Apocalypse
Posted by Jeph! on July 05, 2003 at 16:31:27:
In Reply to: Re: Apocalypse
posted by Mithrandir on July 05, 2003 at 12:14:43:

> While I don't remember the exact issue, Apocalypse does actually enter the Alley during the Massacre to retrieve Plage as one of his future horsemen.  That certainly seems like evidence that he was watching to me.

Then Apocalypse should get an appearance notation for the issue where he retreives Plague -- no others.  Not unless other books offer PROOF (not evidence, proof) that Apoc was behind the scenes during the specific events shown in Thor #373-374.

-Jeph!

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X-Omissions from Key
Posted by David Hall on June 04, 2003 at 13:48:57:

I have found two omissions from the Key:

X-Men: Brood Days of Wrath
X-Men: True Friends

These issues are also missing from the chronology, though that may be due to a gap.  (They can still be put in the key.)

Thanks!

Dave

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Calendar ideas for Paul
Posted by Antonio Gavio on June 04, 2003 at 16:25:50:

Paul:
	Its been a while since I mentioned to you that I had some ideas about the work on the Calendar. Well, I finally have some time to explain a little about those ideas. Lets see, where do I start? Ok. Since having every single Marvel comic ever published comes short of being impossible, help is going to be needed; so Im posting this here in case somebody wants to jump in to help.

You might be already using some calendar program to help you with the confection of your Calendar (just not in the way Ill tell you) and there might be among calendar programs one that is possibly better for the purposes of the Calendar, but so far, in my experience, Ive found Microsoft Works Calendar (MWC) to be the best option.

As weve been doing with the Calendar the idea is to assign dates to every comic issue (or segment of comic when necessary), and list character appearances, brief synopsis and relevant notes about events happening within those issues. But instead of using a one dimensional word program to do it, why not doing it with an actual calendar program. Thats when MWC comes in.

When you use a calendar program to, lets say, organize your life; you create appointments for things to do. When you open a New Appointment using MWC theres a box to specify title, location, category, time of day, and notes about said appointment. So instead of creating appointments for our life we use MWC to create a calendar of Marvel Comics entering the information for every single comic, flashback, or segment of comic happening within determined day. In the place assigned to categories we insert character appearances. The advantages of using MWC are big, since we can look up for appearances within a single comic, or we can look for a character and find all his appearances. 

I think we should start working on stories set from January 1st, 1901 up to the late 50s, prior to FF 1; then we can decide if FF 1 happens in 1961 or if we use the explanations given in Marvel: The Lost Generation and its 2003 in current Marvel stories. MWC covers only from 1901 to 2099. For the stories set prior to or after that point we can still use the old plain word program.

New York time

Not all but most of the stories in Marvel Comics happen in New York so the Calendar should be worked using New York Time (Eastern time) (as I have been doing with the Spidey calendar). Stories within a different time zone should be converted to Eastern Time and then a caption could be added to specify the time differences. 

Phases of the Moon

There are on the web a few useful sites where we can find information regarding moon phases from 1901 to 2099. We should stick to just one of them for consistency.

Kang and time travelers

A character traveling back or ahead in time is not going to have his appearances in order, so in those cases, his last or next appearances should be noted.

	Ive made things short to explain them here but I can give more details as we go along. The first thing now is to make sure you have MWC. I hope you have it or can get it, if not, I sure can send you a copy. Let me know what you think.

Antonio

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Re: Calendar ideas for Paul
Posted by Jeph! on June 04, 2003 at 17:10:57:
In Reply to: Calendar ideas for Paul
posted by Antonio Gavio on June 04, 2003 at 16:25:50:

> Phases of the Moon

> There are on the web a few useful sites where we can find information regarding moon phases from 1901 to 2099.

Can you point me to one or more of these, Antonio?

Actually, what I'm looking for is information on two things:

1) exactly HOW LONG the average moon cycle is (I know that the moon's cycle varies by as much as 10 hours more or less a month, but it varies according to a pattern and does come to an average).

2)  whether this average, and this pattern, was the same 2500 years ago (circa 500 BC).  I don't see why it wouldn't be, but it never hurts to check.

Why, you ask?  Long story, but it involves the chronology of -- of all things -- Xena: Warrior Princess.  ;-)

Thanks, Antonio...

-Jeph!

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Re: Calendar ideas for Paul
Posted by Antonio Gavio on June 04, 2003 at 17:32:38:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar ideas for Paul
posted by Jeph! on June 04, 2003 at 17:10:57:

> > Phases of the Moon

> > There are on the web a few useful sites where we can find information regarding moon phases from 1901 to 2099.

> Can you point me to one or more of these, Antonio?

You can find information at:
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.html
or:
http://planetscapes.com/solar/eng/moon.htm

or just type: phases of the moon for other options.

> Actually, what I'm looking for is information on two things:

> 1) exactly HOW LONG the average moon cycle is (I know that the moon's cycle varies by as much as 10 hours more or less a month, but it varies according to a pattern and does come to an average).

The average isaround 28.5 days.

> 2) whether this average, and this pattern, was the same 2500 years ago (circa 500 BC). I don't see why it wouldn't be, but it never hurts to check.

It should be the same.

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Re: Calendar ideas for Paul
Posted by Jeph! on June 04, 2003 at 18:30:40:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar ideas for Paul
posted by Antonio Gavio on June 04, 2003 at 17:32:38:

> The average isaround 28.5 days.

Right -- but I'm looking for it right down to the MINUTE.  I need to calculate the dates a full moon fell over a range of 70 years from about 540 BC to 470 BC.  I have *one* solid point of reference in 503 BC, but I need to expand it up and down the line for around 35 years in both directions.  Over 35 years, those few minutes' difference every month will affect the dates the full moon fell.

I had it calculated as 29 days, 13 hours, 7 minutes, and 44 seconds -- I'd like to see how that stacks up to the professionals.

Okay, now I'm rambling.  I'll check the websites.  Thanks.

-Jeph!

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Re: Calendar ideas for Paul
Posted by Paul Bourcier on June 04, 2003 at 21:51:14:
In Reply to: Calendar ideas for Paul
posted by Antonio Gavio on June 04, 2003 at 16:25:50:

> You might be already using some calendar program to help you with the confection of your Calendar (just not in the way Ill tell you) and there might be among calendar programs one that is possibly better for the purposes of the Calendar, but so far, in my experience, Ive found Microsoft Works Calendar (MWC) to be the best option.

I haven't been using a calendar program, just good ol' WordPerfect.  I discovered that, lo and behold, I do have MWC 2002 included as part of the Microsoft Works suite that came with my computer.

> As weve been doing with the Calendar the idea is to assign dates to every comic issue (or segment of comic when necessary), and list character appearances, brief synopsis and relevant notes about events happening within those issues. But instead of using a one dimensional word program to do it, why not doing it with an actual calendar program. Thats when MWC comes in.

> When you use a calendar program to, lets say, organize your life; you create appointments for things to do. When you open a New Appointment using MWC theres a box to specify title, location, category, time of day, and notes about said appointment. So instead of creating appointments for our life we use MWC to create a calendar of Marvel Comics entering the information for every single comic, flashback, or segment of comic happening within determined day. In the place assigned to categories we insert character appearances. The advantages of using MWC are big, since we can look up for appearances within a single comic, or we can look for a character and find all his appearances. 

I just briefly checked out MWC and have a few initial reactions which betray my ignorance.

I don't know that we'd want to be bogged down to exact times of day for each entry; that level of detail may not gain us very much and would be a lot of work.  However, if we DON'T use the time feature, it is still there, and I find it a bit distracting.  The category field looks promising, especially if you can search for individual characters; does it work like a database in which we can list their appearances in chronological order ala MCP?  It would definitely save keystrokes; we'd just need a consistent protocol for entering preferred character names (perhaps in proper, not inverted, order to make the comma differentiators easier to follow).  Can Title and Location fields be searched for character strings?

> I think we should start working on stories set from January 1st, 1901 up to the late 50s, prior to FF 1; then we can decide if FF 1 happens in 1961 or if we use the explanations given in Marvel: The Lost Generation and its 2003 in current Marvel stories. MWC covers only from 1901 to 2099. For the stories set prior to or after that point we can still use the old plain word program.

We would definitely need to decide on MU year to do this; something I've been avoiding.  We would need to decide on which approach to use -- FF1 in 1961 and work forward, or current comics in 2003 and work back.  The former is much more preferable to me (Lost Generation be danged) because the "present" is an ever-shifting topical reference.  Stories would constantly have to shift their timing if we took this approach so that current continuity would happen in the real world frame of chronological reference.

> New York time

> Not all but most of the stories in Marvel Comics happen in New York so the Calendar should be worked using New York Time (Eastern time) (as I have been doing with the Spidey calendar). Stories within a different time zone should be converted to Eastern Time and then a caption could be added to specify the time differences. 

I know you've been delving into this degree of detail for Spider-Man, Antonio, but trying to pinpoint times (New York times at that) may bog us down too much if we apply this to every segment of every comic.

> Phases of the Moon

> There are on the web a few useful sites where we can find information regarding moon phases from 1901 to 2099. We should stick to just one of them for consistency.

Nailing down exact days for phases of the moon is predicated on deciding real MU years.  The ones in my calendar now don't presume a specific year, but are predicated only on the average time between phases, which I cribbed from another web site.

I'm hesitant, at least at this point.  Perhaps after we get the current calendar project as finalized as we can -- with juggled Spidey placements ;) -- you might copy and paste some of the WP document into MWC and send it to me to see how it might work??

What do other folks think of working in this format?  Easier? More difficult?  Are folks comfortable with having to deal with assigning MU years and perhaps abandoning recent chronology for now?

Thanks so much for your thoughtful suggestions and continued contributions, Antonio.

--Paul

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Re: Calendar ideas for Paul
Posted by Antonio Gavio on June 05, 2003 at 16:41:06:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar ideas for Paul
posted by Paul Bourcier on June 04, 2003 at 21:51:14:

> I don't know that we'd want to be bogged down to exact times of day for each entry; that level of detail may not gain us very much and would be a lot of work.  However, if we DON'T use the time feature, it is still there, and I find it a bit distracting.  

I don't think it's possible to get the exact times of day for each entry; as you can see from the my Spidey calendar I just used an approximate time, and let me tell you, it helps.

>The category field looks promising, especially if you can search for individual characters; does it work like a database in which we can list their appearances in chronological order ala MCP?  

You can see the chronological order of a character by using the category filter, just selecting the character you want. You can even do the same with groups, like say, Avengers or X-Men, by entering Avengers or X-Men as a category and then using the category filter. For time travelers, as I said before, the idea is to add footnotes with the last or next appearance.

>It would definitely save keystrokes; we'd just need a consistent protocol for entering preferred character names (perhaps in proper, not inverted, order to make the comma differentiators easier to follow).  

It's just a matter of deciding on one.

>Can Title and Location fields be searched for character strings?

You can look for a title and it's gonna give you character appearances (in the category column). I don't think it's possible to look by location, but what I do for that is to copy the location into the section destined for notes, then you can look for a comic with, say, Avengers Mansion appearing, and the progam it's going to look inside all your notes and give you every Avengers Mansion appearance. 

> > I think we should start working on stories set from January 1st, 1901 up to the late 50s, prior to FF 1; then we can decide if FF 1 happens in 1961 or if we use the explanations given in Marvel: The Lost Generation and its 2003 in current Marvel stories. MWC covers only from 1901 to 2099. For the stories set prior to or after that point we can still use the old plain word program.

> We would definitely need to decide on MU year to do this; something I've been avoiding.  We would need to decide on which approach to use -- FF1 in 1961 and work forward, or current comics in 2003 and work back.  The former is much more preferable to me (Lost Generation be danged) because the "present" is an ever-shifting topical reference.  Stories would constantly have to shift their timing if we took this approach so that current continuity would happen in the real world frame of chronological reference.

That's why I think it best to start with what's already set in time, and we know it's not going to change. We can decide later on post FF 1 stuff.

> > New York time

> > Not all but most of the stories in Marvel Comics happen in New York so the Calendar should be worked using New York Time (Eastern time) (as I have been doing with the Spidey calendar). Stories within a different time zone should be converted to Eastern Time and then a caption could be added to specify the time differences. 

> I know you've been delving into this degree of detail for Spider-Man, Antonio, but trying to pinpoint times (New York times at that) may bog us down too much if we apply this to every segment of every comic.

 I haven't found it that difficult.

> > Phases of the Moon

> > There are on the web a few useful sites where we can find information regarding moon phases from 1901 to 2099. We should stick to just one of them for consistency.

> Nailing down exact days for phases of the moon is predicated on deciding real MU years.  The ones in my calendar now don't presume a specific year, but are predicated only on the average time between phases, which I cribbed from another web site.

> I'm hesitant, at least at this point.  Perhaps after we get the current calendar project as finalized as we can -- with juggled Spidey placements ;) -- you might copy and paste some of the WP document into MWC and send it to me to see how it might work??

The problem with this approach, Paul, is that there's always going to be a comic behind or after the current calendar that we need to add.

> What do other folks think of working in this format?  Easier? More difficult?  Are folks comfortable with having to deal with assigning MU years and perhaps abandoning recent chronology for now?

Why don't you experiment a little with two or three entries and get a better feel for it. I've been using it for the Spidey calendar all this time, and I find it a waste of time now just using a word program.

			*	*	*

Re: Calendar ideas for Paul
Posted by Paul Bourcier on June 06, 2003 at 17:40:56:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar ideas for Paul
posted by Antonio Gavio on June 05, 2003 at 16:41:06:

> You can see the chronological order of a character by using the category filter, just selecting the character you want. You can even do the same with groups, like say, Avengers or X-Men, by entering Avengers or X-Men as a category and then using the category filter. For time travelers, as I said before, the idea is to add footnotes with the last or next appearance.

Is there a practical limit to the number of categories you can have?  We have to track several thousand characters.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Calendar ideas for Paul
Posted by Antonio Gavio on June 08, 2003 at 15:23:47:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar ideas for Paul
posted by Paul Bourcier on June 06, 2003 at 17:40:56:

There's no limit.

			*	*	*

Chronology reviews for Hulk Issues #34-43, for Paul's Calender...
Posted by Kevin  on June 04, 2003 at 17:52:26:

Well, here is it, the first part of my reviews for recent Hulk issues, (actaully, this is going back to Nov. of 2001, when Bruce Jones took over the writing).  I post it here in the open for anyone who wants to to go over it and report mistakes if they find any.  Hopefully this is good to go though...

Hulk v.3 #34
The Morning After
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn By John Romita Jr.

Appearances:  Bruce Banner, Mr. Blue, (new, reaccuring character)

Synopsis:  (with page breakdowns)  

First: a review of sorts.  Bruce Banner has just been cured of Lou Gehrigs disease back in issue #32.  The Bruce Jones written run on the title must occur AFTER the events of The Order miniseries.  It happens at least weeks after The Order #6, but probably months.   Its been long enough for Banner to grow a beard and long hair, to hide his face.  Yep, its Banner on the Run from the Law time again.

And then theres the dilemma of where have all the multiple Hulk personalities gone?  Unknown, at this time.  As mentioned above, sometime has passed since the Order, but when Banner transforms into the Hulk in these current storylines, its a non-talking, rampaging beast.  Its NOT the rampaging stupid Hulk who was most popular in the 70s comics, (the one who bellows: HULK SMASH!!!).  This Hulk more resembles the Hulk of the TV series.  The main focus of the relationship between Hulk and Banner in this run seems to be that the lines between the two beings are blurring.  Banners taking on (in certain scenes) aspects of Hulks anger, while there seems to be a glint of Banners intelligence in the eyes of the beast.  This blurring between the two is even more heightened in recent issues, wherein just the latest issue, (#54) Banner says hes been practicing yoga and psychiatric techniques on himself, and it seems to him that though hes gained more control of his Hulk side, but it also seems that if he were to lose control, then the Hulk side might take control permanently.  This sorta sounds like Banners fear of the Devil Hulk gaining control, but I believe the focus is no longer on multiple personalities, but on just the light side vs. the dark side of Banners soul.  

So again, where have all the multiple personalities gone?  As far as I can tell: Banner, in his quest to gain more control over his mind, and thus, over the Hulk, has suppressed all of the multiple personalities (Stupid Hulk, Gray Hulk, Prof. Hulk, Devil Hulk) into a deep pocket somewhere in his mind.  Theyre gone for now, (unless the writer Bruce Jones brings them back).

Sorry, now onto issue #34s review.

Pg. 1-11:  On what appears to be a cold Fall/Winter night, Banner checks into a hotel, (or more specifically, a run down housing unit) in the poverty section of St. Louis.  Inner city gangs are roaming the streets outside the hotel.  On the T.V. inside, (which the seedy looking landlord is watching behind his counter) there is a news report of the Hulk going on a rampage in Chicago, (an incident which appears to have happened just a few days prior, or perhaps even yesterday).  The news reports that there was only one fatality:  that of a 9 year old boy named Ricky Myers, who was crushed by a building the Hulk knocked down.

As Banner checks into his room, he watches a fight between the tenants in the room next door.  Its a single mom and her teenage son, who basically kicks her son Jerome out.  She tosses money out the door, as he runs away, stating shell never be so poor that she accepts drug money.  She comments to Banner, who saw it all, that hes a good kid, but this neighborhood is wearing him down.  She walks back into her room, and Banner looks down at the drug money on the ground.  Since he probably needs the cash, he takes it.

Once settled into his room, Banner pulls out a briefcase, which opens up to reveal its a laptop computer on the inside.  He types a message, asking Mr. Blue, you there?  A response comes back, saying Mr. Green, cant talk right nowdoing the washcall later.  Mr. Blue is Bruces mysterious ally while on the run.  We dont learn the identity of Mr. Blue till much later.  These type of cryptic back and forth messages will go on just about every issue.

This laptop computer also has T.V. capabilities, because after that, we see him watching T.V. on it.  The news is still talking about the Hulk.  The Reporter warns for everyone in the Chicago area to be on the look out for Bruce Banner, whom is reported to be wearing a beard.  Bruce touches his beard after hearing this.  In the next panels we see hes shaved his head and beard completely off.  This is the look hell wear for all issues to come, (though is it just me, or is it finally starting to grow back on top of his head in recent issues?)

After that, we see Bruce practicing Yoga and meditation, and we see books about that sort of stuff all over his bed.  Hes been using these techniques to keep his anger from surfacing.  During these sessions, he focuses on a metronome and upon an image of a beautiful woman dressed in a bikini.  He uses these images to calm him down, (though I dont believe they work all the time, because he often sees these images right before he transforms into the Hulk).  

Later that night, while asleep, we see Jerome (the next door neighbor kid) in his room, stealing Bruces laptop computer and his wallet.  Bruce sits up and calmly, with a smile, asks him to leave that stuff.  They start to hit it off conversationally.  Banner hears some police sirens drive by, and he momentarily panics, ducking behind the window.  Jerome notes hes not the only one wanted.  They come to an understanding, and Jerome leaves his stuff alone, and leaves.

Pg. 12-14: CUT TO THE NEXT DAY.  Banner is in a city park, sitting on a bench, typing on his laptop, when he spots Jerome being roughed up by some older drug dealing types.  Theyre demanding he work for them.  Banner starts to walk over there, a concerned look on his face.  The Dealers look at him, asking if hes got a problem.  He walks away.

Later, Jerome is sitting alone in another part of the park, and Banner walks up to him, and apologizes, saying he cant become involved, (he doesnt want to transform into the Hulk).  Jerome says its not his problem, and walks off depressed.

Pg.  15-18:  Cut to that night.  Jerome enters Banners room again, and wakes Banner up, and offers him a gun, saying that with this, you have power.  Banner refuses to take it, and they talk a bit more.  Banner says he was a lot like Jerome when he was younger:  mixed up in stuff he shouldnt have been, (either a reference to Banners abusive father, or more likely a reference to his work for the military, which he regrets, cause its what made him the Hulk).  He urges Jerome to stay clean, and then says hes all out of sermons.

Pg. 19-21:  Cut to later that night.  Banner cant sleep after Jeromes visit, so hes walking the streets of St. Louis.  He sees the drug dealers again, in an alley off to the side.  The Dealers threaten him and he starts to leave, but we see that scantily clad lady appear in Banners head, and then, we see him standing back in front of the alley.  Hes suddenly acting a bit cocky, and the Dealers start to walk towards him, ready to give this strange loner the beating of his life.  Banner replies, a green glow in his eyes, Better make it fast.

Pg. 22:  CUT TO WHAT IS PROBABLY THE NEXT NIGHT, outside of St. Louis, Banner (wearing a winter outfit) is picked up by a trucker.  Banner thanks him, saying it was time for him to leave.  The Trucker notes that Banner has a black eye.  Banner replies, You should see the other guy.

Pg. 23:   Cut back to the alley.  All of the dealers are naked, and wrapped up in steel and concrete, left for the cops, (or to freeze to death).  A St. Louis newspaper floats by in the wind, the headline reading that its possibly the Hulk is in the general area of St. Loius.  I guess after Banner Hulked up last night, he was spotted by somebody, and the papers have picked up on it.

What I suppose this signals is that since Banner took on the Dealers, this represents a Banner whos more willing to on purpose let himself be turned into the Hulk.

References:  As noted above, it looks cold.  Thick coats, barren trees.  Theres a full moon on the night Jerome tries to steal from Banner.  But then again, theres a full moon on the night Banner hitches a ride out of town near the end.  I think Romita Jr. just likes Full Moons. 

Hulk #35
Silent Running
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn By John Romita Jr.

Appearances:  Bruce Banner, Mr. Blue

Note:  Ive concluded that since Bruce Jones writing style is different from, say, Brian Michael Bendis of Daredevil, when possible, its easier for me to sum up all the events without giving page numbers for every little thing.  By this I mean that if an issue happens over multiple days, Ill try and give page breakdowns.  If all events in an issue happen in one day, I wont give page breakdowns unless its important.

Synopsis:  This is the Nuff Said issue.  ENTIRE ISSUE HAPPENS OVER THE COURSE OF ONE DAY, (probably over only a few hours).  Banner is let off by a truck, (perhaps the same truck that picked him up last issue, and perhaps this is the next day, though hes wearing a different outfit then what he had on at end of last issue, so perhaps this is 2 to 3 days later) which has stopped at a roadside diner somewhere in the Midwest, (in following issues, we learn this area hes in is Kansas.  Banners moving west).

Banner steps into the roadside diner and orders some food.  Banners face and story are on the news again on the T.V. inside the diner.  Across from him is a little girl who stares at him, making him feel uncomfortable, till he sees that the little girls mother next to her is reading a book about Autism.  Banner concludes this little girl is Autistic.  

Banner pulls out his laptop computer, asking for a weather report, and Mr. Blue sends him a message saying storm clouds are heading his way.   Suddenly, 3 men walk into the diner, dressed in black uniforms, (very Men in Black like) apparently on the lookout for Banner.  The men spot Banner walking quickly into the bathroom.  They rush into the restroom and see the bathroom window has been opened, and they conclude hes fled out the window, and they run back outside the diner.  Banner then steps out of the cabinet inside the bathroom.

He walks out the door  and out into the tall grass fields behind the diner, trying to lose the men.  But he doesnt: suddenly a tranquilizer dart hits him, and he falls to the ground asleep.

He wakes up for a moment inside the back of a limo, where the 3 MIBs are guarding him.  One of them is on a cell phone, apparently calling in to their boss that they have captured Banner.  Banner, (still drugged) slips back into unconsiosness.   

In his delirious state, he has a dream about the beautiful woman at the beach that he likes to meditate to the sight of.  Suddenly, she changes into an image of the little autistic girl, and we see her trying to push a beached whale back into the ocean.  She looks imploringly at Bruce, and he starts to push as well, but he doesnt have the strength.  This is obviously some sort of subconscious dream to awaken the strength of the Hulk, (scientifically, Id say its Banners adrenaline kicking in to fight off the tranquilizer, which triggers his turning into the Hulk) cause a second later, the Hulk explodes right in the middle of the limo, causing it to wreck, and knocking out, (or killing) all of the MIB.  

Cut to later, back at the diner, where we see Bruce humbly walking back into the diner, wearing one of the Men In Blacks outfits.  He places an order again.  The little autistic girl and her mother are still there, but they get up to leave.  She is still looking at Banner, (and appears to be the only one in the diner whos taken notice of anything strange happening).  She drops her books as they start to leave, and Banner leans down and picks them up, handing them to her with a smile.  She smiles back, the first friendly expression shes given all day.  Apparently, she thinks Banners an all right guy.

Only finishing half his meal, Banner gets up and walks out of the diner, feeding his leftovers to a stray dog.  He gives the hitchhikers thumb sign, and catches a ride outta there.  The End.

References:  As will be confirmed by the timeline of the next few issues, this is either the day after, or a couple days later from last issue #34.

I should take a moment to say that this is the first time we see Banner versus what Ill refer to from here on out as The Secret Conspiracy.  Though its the first time we see it, Banner is supposedly been on the run from this group for a little while now, (this is what Mr. Blue has been warning him about over the laptop).  Just so you know, this group is similar to any clandestine government/corporate organization that youve ever seen in any conspiracy theory type movie.  I think the best example may be the evil secret govt. group in the X-files television series.    Their mission is to capture the Hulk, (more specifically, we discover over later issues that they specifically want the Hulks blood).  

Hulk #36
The Gangs all here
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by John Romita Jr.

Appearances:  Bruce Banner, Mr. Blue, Doc Samson, New character: Sandra Verdugo, New Character:  Jink Slater, New characters:  S-1 and S-2.  These two characters are just some of the heads of the Secret Conspiracy.  Here, they are shrouded in black, so that we cant make out their features.  In later issues, we learn there codenames are S-1 and S-2, (though we dont see faces till much later).

Abbreviations (which Ill use at times):  
Secret Conspiracy: S.C.

Synopsis:  HAPPENS OVER TWO DAYS. ITS POSSIBLE THIS IS THE NEXT DAY AFTER LAST ISSUE.

Pgs. 1-13:  We start by seeing a female inmate (Sandra Verdugo) on death row about to get executed.  The clock in her cell shows a time of 11:35.  Her execution is set for midnight.  She is drawing a portrait on a piece of paper:  its a sketch of a little boy, a little boy who strangely looks like Ricky Myers, the kid supposedly killed in the Hulks Chicago rampage.  Speaking of that rampage, she has a T.V. in her cell, and the news is broadcasting footage of the Hulks rampage.  Apparently an amatuer video man recorded the building coming down on little Ricky Myers.  

Cut to Doc Samsons house, where we see him watching the same news broadcast.  He gets a strange phone call, from someone whom he agrees to meet later that night, to discuss the Hulk.

That same night, we see two mysterious figures, (members of the Secret Conspiracy, codenamed S-1 and S-2, we cant make out their features) watching some footage (perhaps the CIA recorded it, since this isnt news broadcast) of a figure named Jink Slater, a rogue Special Ops type assassin.  Hes wanted by the FBI and they say hes connected to rebel activity in South America.  S-1 decides to hire Mr. Slater.  He also decides to team Slater with another assassin, so theyll double their chances of catching Banner.  The other guy warns him that Slater prefers to work alone, but S-1 has his mind made up.

Cut back to Mrs. Verdugo, whom we see is promptly executed by lethal injection at midnight.  After theyre sure shes dead, we see the Coroners ambulance hauling  her dead body off to the morgue.  It doesnt get far down the road before it pulls over upon spotting someone lying in the middle of the road.  The ambulance driver gets out to check on the stranger, who suddenly rises up and shoots the driver.  Apparently the S.C. has other plans for Mrs. Verdugos body.

Cut to Slater, who was apparently contacted by the Secret Conspiracy immediately.  Hes in a hotel room somewhere, and he tells them he refuses to work with a partner, (as the S.C. wants).  

Cut to Banner, whos in a hotel somewhere, (probably still in Kansas) and is watching that same news footage that Doc Samson and Sandra Verdugo were watching.  He keeps seeing the image of little Ricky Myers being crushed by the rubble of the Building, the Hulk rampaging in the background.  He mutters to himself something like, Please, God, dont let this image haunt me for the rest of my life.

Cut to later that night, where we see Doc Samson in his car, pulled up along the side of the road next to another car.  Inside, is someone whos a part of the Secret Conspiracy.  Theyre talking about the Hulk, and the mystery figure tries to hire Doc Samson to hunt Bruce down.  Samson declines, but the other guy gives him 24 hours to think it over, noting that others will do the hunting if he wont.  We later learn that Samson decides to take them up on the offer, but for his own reasons.

Pg. 14-22:  CUT TO WHAT IS PROBABLY THE NEXT DAY

Slater is again shown in a hotel room, talking to S-1 (silhouetted in black) on a T.V. type monitor.  He refuses to accept a partner, saying he doesnt need one, that he works alone.  Suddenly, theres a knock at the door, and room service barges in.  A lady in a maids outfit walks in, and it turns out to be Sandra Verdugo, alive and well!  She starts to pour Slater a drink, and Slater starts to rush her off, but she attacks Slater, and they get in a fight.  Slater realizes the S.C. put her up to this, to show shes capable of holding her own, but he still insists of working alone.  S-1 figure on the monitor says they MUST work together, and that hes giving them 5 days to capture Banner, and hell give a bonus to whoever does the actual capture.

Banner is shown being picked up by another Trucker as he walks along the side of the road.

Slater and Verdugo plot how theyll hunt Banner.  They determine that Banner will probably be heading West.  Verdugo convinces Slater to try her plan:  to slip Banner an aphrodisiac of sorts, which will knock out Banners nerve system, (instead of acting like a tranquilizer, which just kicks in Banners adrenaline, making him become the Hulk).

References:  On 2nd day of this issue, when Banner and the Trucker are listening to the radio, the news says that the funeral for Ricky Myers is being held today in Chicago.  Ive never seen a dead person not buried more than 7 days after dying, so I suppose a good estimate of how much time has passed since the Chicago rampage would be roughly a week.

Also, on the news, it says that people in Jackson, Johnson, and Hayes counties should be on the lookout for the Hulk or Banner.  Now I get the feeling that the writer just tossed some names out there, but I did some research, and there is a Jackson and Johnson counties in Kansas, and there is a Hayes county in Nebraska, but none of these counties lie close to each other.

Hulk #37
You Must Remember This
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by John Romita Jr.

Appearances:  Bruce Banner, Doc Samson, Sandra Verdugo, Jink Slater

Synopsis:  ALL EVENTS IN THIS ISSUE HAPPEN OVER A FEW HOURS IN 1 DAY; ITS THE DAY AFTER LAST ISSUE.

Banner is walking along the side of the road again.  A van drives by.  Inside, a teenage driver is watching a miniature T.V. set, watching news about the fugitive Banner.  The driver nearly hits Banner, and skids to a stop.  Begging forgiveness, the driver offers Banner a ride.  As they get in the car, the news station is about to show a sketch of what they suspect Banner looks like now.  Banner quickly flips off the T.V., and the teenage driver agrees: having those things in a car can get someone killed.

Meanwhile, Doc Samson breaks into an old run down laboratory, where he apparently worked ages ago.  Theres a news clipping on the wall talking about how Doc Samson first got his powers.  I suspect this may be the place where he got his powers, and that its an old military base, but since I dont know the full history of Samsons origin, I cant be sure.  He reconnects some wires, and powers up the old computers, and is preparing to do some searching for the Hulk.

Cut to Slater, who is testing his marksmanship with a handgun behind the hotel where they stayed last issue.  Its the next morning.  Sandra comes out to see him, and he offers her the gun, saying if she can score a perfect shot, hell buy breakfast, (he was firing at a picture of Banner).  She comments that hes surprised she trusts him with a gun.  She points the gun at his head and says, You know what I like about you Slater?  She pulls the trigger pointing it up into the air, and alls we hear is a click.  Youre so predictable.  Showing he apparently doesnt trust her enough to give her a weapon when he doesnt have one.  

Banner and the teenage driver are driving along, discussing the Hulk.  The teenager apparently thinks Banner and the Hulk are innocent, and believes its all a conspiracy.  Banner, (though in actuality believes this to be true) plays it down, like the kid believes too much in conspiracy theories.  As theyre about to cross an old wooden bridge, a police car zooms up behind them, its lights flashing.  The teen says the police dont like him using this bridge in the van, saying itll collapse, but it hasnt happened to him yet.  Banner hears a creaking noise, and says, maybe the police are right.  Suddenly, the van falls through the old bridge, into the creek below.  

Cut back to Samson, who finds a kid hiding among the clutter inside the laboratory.  He says hes hiding from a school yard bully whos coming over this way in a few minutes to beat him up, (apparently, theres a school nearby).  The kid, (upon seeing how big Samsons muscles are, comments that he probably never got beat up).  In Samsons mind, he momentarily sees an old image of the Hulk beating him up, back when they were adversaries.  Samson comments that its happened once or twice.

Cut back to Banner, whos gotten out of the Van and is trying to help the now injured kid out of the drivers side, but his legs are trapped under the steering wheel.  The Police officer rushes down to the creek to see if he can help.  The teen is unconscious.  Banner notes that the creek is rising, and there must be a storm in the next county, but the water level is acting like a flood is coming.  The officer says, Weve got to do something NOW!  Banner feels helpless, and sees momentarily the news footage of little Ricky Myers being crushed by the collapsing building.  His eyes flash green, and Banner says to the officer that he needs to get out of here NOW!

Cut back to Samson, who is fiddling with some of the technology inside the lab.  He apparently has an old tissue sample of Banners DNA there, and explains to the kid that hes preparing a device thatll let him find someone hes looking for.  He then encourages the kid to face his fears, and when that school yard bully gets here, to think like hes the Hulk.  If he focuses on being strong like the Hulk, then hell have all the confidence needed to face the bully.  The kid, (upon seeing the bully approaching outside the window) crawls out the window, and after the bully throws the first punch.  The kid, (mumbling to himself: I AM THE HULK) gets up and throws back a punch, which hits, and at that exact moment, Samson, (whos watching from the window) punches the wall inside the lab, and the whole ground shakes, making the kids fall to the ground.  The bully runs off scared, and the kid looks at his hands like huh?  Samson just smiles.

Cut to Slater and Verdugo, who are driving along.  Verdugos brought a labtop of her own along, (apparently the S.C. they work for know that Banners talking to the mysterious Mr. Blue over a laptop).  Verdugos laptop computer is a stolen FBI model, which can somehow track the fingerprints of wanted criminals on other computers.  In other words, theyre tracking down Banner, and can tell hes just up ahead on the road.

Cut back to the creek.  The policeman has run back up to his car, and his calling for help, saying they have a kid trapped in the creek.  Suddenly, he looks up to see the teenagers van ABOVE HIS HEAD, and it falls back down to earth right onto his police car.  Both vehicles are now ruined, but the teen is now strangely lying next to the side of the road.  

Just then, Slater and Verdugo drive up, and they were both looking at the laptop, so Verdugo, (shes driving) dont notice the wreckage up ahead of them, and they crash, and both are thrown from the car.  The Policeman checks on them, sees theyre basically allright, and picks up the unconscious teen and jumps in their car, and says hes borrowing it, to get the kid to the hospital, and to call for back up, (I get the feeling hes still a little freaked out by the Van flying through the air).

Verdugos too disoriented to stop the cop, but she picks up her laptop, which was thrown clear, and Slater complains this wouldnt have happened if they were following his plan.  She ignores him, and watches Banner come walking up the other side of the wooden bridge, (and theres a pretty decent gap between the two sides).  He puts on a new shirt and hat, and walks away, not even noticing the stuff happening back on the other side.  Verdugo quotes some Robert Frost, (and miles to go before I sleep) which is basically saying the chase is still on.  The End.

References:  Slater and Verdugo are shown with a Kansas Road map inside the vehicle, which convinces me that all this is set in rural Kansas.

Hulk #38
Last Chance Caf
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by John Romita Jr.

Appearances:  Bruce Banner, Doc Samson, Sandra Verdugo, Jink Slater, Mr. Blue, the Secret Conspiracy.

Synopsis:  CONTINUES DIRECTLY FROM WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE, SO THIS IS THE SAME DAY.  EVENTS HAPPEN OVER A FEW HOURS.

We start where we left off last issue.  Sandra Verdugo is watching Banner walk off into the distance, and Slater is picking himself off the pavement chewing her out, saying theyve no car, and no Banner.  Suddenly a car pulls up, and a couple gets out, asking if they can help.  Verdugo and Slaters clothes are all messed up from the wreck.  They start to pull out their guns.

Cut to a bit later, where we see Slater and Verdugo driving along in the couples clothes and car.  They use the laptop to confirm that Banners just up ahead, but Verdugo decides that instead of confronting him directly, theyll stick to her plan:  to put a drug in his food at a small cafe thats on the map just up ahead.  They figure its warm enough outside that Banner will stop their for refreshment.

Cut to Banner, who steps over another grassy hill to see a small caf down by the roadside below.  He walks in, and Slater and Verdugo are inside already, (they drove ahead of him) sitting at a table in the corner.  Shes wearing the skimpy outfit she stole off of the woman, (a tubetop shirt and cut off shorts)  and begins to put her plan into motion.  She goes over and flirts with Banner, saying she forgot her purse, and asking if Banner will buy her a drink.  He agrees to.  He turns to get the waitresses attention, and at that moment, she dissolves the neural inhibator drug into his own drink.  

Meanwhile, the policeman from last issue is pulling back up to the site of last issues accident, with a fellow deputy by his side.  They get out, and discover the two naked bodies of a man and woman lying next to the road: bullet holes in their heads.  These are the people Verdugo and Slater killed.  Just then, as the two cops are looking around for clues as to what the blazes happened here, the dead man and woman sit up, and kill the two cops!

A few minutes later, we see them in the police officers uniforms, driving down the street in the police car.  One of them is on the phone with S-1 and S-2, who urges them to keep an eye on the situation, but not to interfere yet.  Apparently the Secret Conspiracy has sent these two operatives to monitor the progress of Slater and Verdugo.  These two are wiping the blood off their foreheads from where they were shot, like those bullets they took to the head hurt them only momentarily.  We also see the M.F. watching the two cops over a monitor: from what I can figure, they have a mini camera in tow, (and we later learn the Secret Conspiracy can install minicameras in their operatives eyeballs, to see what their agents are seeing).

Sandra sits down next to him as her drink arrives, and they say cheers and hes just about to take a drink, when he gets a message over his laptop from Mr. Blue, a message warning him that danger is approaching.  Sandra frowns, noting he isnt drinking yet. Banner doesnt panic though, and is about to finally drink from his glass when a pair of huge hands clasp down on Banners shoulders.  Banner looks up to see what appears to be a big, muscle bound, bearded trucker, who asks for a dance with Banners woman, saying shes an old flame, and says to Banner he surely wont mind.  Banner, (caught a little off balance, and not wanting trouble) says he doesnt mind, and the Trucker asks Sandra to go put some money in the jukebox.  Sandra, (who is also caught off guard) goes away from the table.  The Trucker sits down and reveals what we viewing the artists rendition have already figured out:  This is Doc Samson in disguise.  

At the exact same time this is going on, the two cops walk into the caf and sit down at another table: watching Slater and Banners tables.

Doc Samson says to Banner that theres danger all around him.  He reveals to Banner the names of the two individuals hunting him: Jink Slater and Sandra Verdugo, noting theyre both assasins for hire, and he also notes that Sandra was executed last week in Leavenworth for the murder of her son.  He says she looks pretty good for a dead person.  Sandra sits back down at Slaters table and reveals she saw through the disguise: she knows thats Doc Samson.  Next issue we learn theyve known each other previously, thats why Doc Samson was referring to her as an old flame.  Slater says hes noticed the two cops that just entered look an awful lot like the two people they killed earlier.  He notes that not everyone here is who they appear, and asks if that includes Verdugo.  

Banner asks how Doc Samson knows all this.  Samson says he was approached by the same people to hunt Banner as well, (Samson also used that device he concocted in the lab last issue to find Banner).  He says that all he knows of WHY theyre hunting the Hulk is that they have plans for him.  He says that if they can bring an executed woman back to life, hed hate to think what they could accomplish with the Hulks DNA.  Banner asks with all these Assassins around them, just how Doc Samson plans on getting them out of this fix.  Doc Samson shows him how: he slaps Banner across the face hard.  He slaps him again.  Banners eyes glow green.  

Slaters had enough, and upon seeing that Samsons deliberately trying to provoke Banner, he gets up and pulls out his gun.  Sandra tries to stop him, but he shoots her in the head.   She falls to the ground apparently dead.  The two cops get up and pull out their guns and aim them at Slater, (apparently feeling hes a wild card).  Everyones fleeing the caf.  Suddenly, the Hulk bursts into existence right in the middle of things, and the first thing he does is punch Samson through the roof.  He falls to the ground several yards away outside the caf.  The Hulk then throws a table, knocking Slater out the window, and then picks up the two cops by their necks, and we see M.F. (whos been watching the entire thing) see his monitor go blank.  Apparently whatever mini camera the two policeman were using has now been destroyed during Hulks rampage.

Outside, a short time later, Samson pulls himself up off the ground, and notes Banners laptop computer has fallen to the ground nearby.  He starts to pick it up, but is knocked over the head by a big treech branch.  Still disoriented from the Hulks punch, he collapses to the ground unconscious.  And who knocked him out?  Sandra Verdugo, who still has blood dripping from a bullet hole in the center of her forehead.  She says she needs that laptop more than Samson does right now.

The End.

References:  When Sandra first approaches Banner to flirt with him, she says its the hottest day of the year and she forgot her purse, so she couldnt buy herself a drink.  But just a few days ago was issue #34 in St. Louis, where we saw freezing weather at night, and everyones been wearing long sleeve outfits in issues #34-36.  So either this issue happens on an abnormally hot day during a cold season, or issue #34 happened on an abnormally cold couple of days during a hot season.  

Hulk #39
TagYoure Dead!
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by John Romita Jr.

Appearances:  Bruce Banner, Sandra Verdugo, Jink Slater, The Secret Conspiracy.

Synopsis:  HAPPENS IN A FEW HOURS, OVER THE COURSE OF ONE DAY.  WE LEARN THIS IS THE FOLLOWING DAY AFTER LAST ISSUE.

The Hulk, (who strangely hasnt changed back to Banner) is walking around the countryside after his brawl last issue.  Hes walking in a delusional state.  He imagines that he walks down to a river, where he sees little Ricky Myers, who is tossing flowers onto the water and watching them float. Hulk picks up Ricky like hes a twig, and tosses him into the water, to see if hell float.  The kid drowns, (this is a reference to a classic scene in the movie Frankenstien).

Cut to Slater, who is now dressed in survival/hunter gear, a machine gun in his hand.  He notices the footprint of the Hulk, and knows hes close by.  He phones into base, and lets them know hell have Hulk soon, but hes going in alone, (hes apparently fed up with having a partner).  Suddenly, another operative appears, (another member of the S.C.) who says hes just there to watch, and provide backup: he doesnt want to interfere with Slaters hunt.  Slater doesnt take no for an answer and kills the operative.  Another operative (who was hiding in the fields nearby, waiting to see Slaters reaction) shoots Slater, (mustve been a glancing blow, or Slaters a zombie like Verdugo and the others) cause Slater gets up and shoots and kills the other guy.

Cut back to the Hulk, who approaches a shack hes stumbled upon in the woods.  He looks in the window and sees a cloaked figure inside, cooking some food. The Hulk burst through the door, and the cloaked figure takes it all in stride, offering the Hulk some soup.  As the Hulk slurps down the meal, the figure takes off the cloak, to reveal its Sandra Verdugo.   She is dressed in just a bikini. She still has the impression of a bullet on her forehead, from where she was shot.  She sets up a metronome on the wall, and starts talking like a hypnotist would to their patient.  The Hulk focuses on the pretty woman and the metronome, (just like Banner does during meditation) and he quickly reverts to being just Banner.  

The first thing Banner does is ask how she knows his meditation techniques.  She says shes an assassin, and its her job to find out such things.  Perhaps she found some of Banners meditation books.  Banner comments that he had a bad dream where he threw a kid in a river.  She asks if the kid looks like a portrait she has kept, (its the portrait she was drawing in her cell before she was executed).  He says yes: its a portrait of Ricky Myers.  

She reveals that before she tried to drug Banner unconscious yesterday at the caf, when she first introduced herself and shook his hand, she pricked him with a small concealed needle, which contained a drug which would slow him down, (which explains why the Hulk didnt change back to Banner after the scuffle yesterday, hes been wandering around in a stupor).  She comments she did this because itd make the Hulk easier to track.

Here comes the shocker:  She reveals that Ricky is her son, and she was framed for his murder last year and after the quick trial, was put on death row.  She says that the father is Doc Samson, whom she shacked up with 8 years ago down in Argentina, while running weapons for a rebel group.  Shes a former military operative, (just like Slater) and Samson was supposedly down there on business.  So Samson was being truthful when he called her an old flame last issue.  After she and Samson separated, she found out she was pregnant.  

She said she was approached in jail by a mystery figure, who offered her her son back, claiming they had him hidden, in exchange for her putting her assassin skills to use in capturing the Hulk. She agreed, and after her execution, she awoke to find herself in a mysterious place the members of the S.C. referred to as Homebase.  She was immediately teamed up with Slater, (which we saw in issue #36) and that night, in her hotel where she was shacked up with Slater, she came across a strong computer disk which had found its way into her backpack, (we much later find out that Mr. Blue planted it there).  She puts it into Banners laptop computer, (which she recovered at the end of last issue), and up comes an image of a weapon, which they learn is some sort of supergun the S.C. has come up with to bring down the Hulk.  Itll knock the Hulk unconscious.  

Nearby, we see Slater searching the bodies of the two operatives he killed, and he finds two weapon pieces, which he assembles to reveal its the weapon Verdugo and Banner are looking at on the laptop.  On Slaters own laptop, (the one him and Sandra were using to track Banner) he sees that theyre nearby.  He figures out that he and Sandra, (while being used to hunt down the Hulk) they werent expected to make the capture:  Homebase sent these other operatives along with this special Hulk gun to finish the job.  

Back in the cabin, Sandra tells Bruce that she figured out quickly that her and Slater were just being used: the instant Homebase has Banner, theyd kill her son.  She cant afford to let that happen, so she says shes changing allegiances to side with Banner.  She pleads to him that he must find Ricky and rescue him from these people.  Plus, itll help prove the Hulk is innocent in Ricky Myers Death.

Just then, Slater opens up the door, his machine gun in one hand, and the Hulk stunner gun in the other.  He mocks Sandra, saying she didnt put together a plan very well.   She says that shes planned for this moment, and reveals she planted some huge explosive devices underneath this cabin.  Slater says shes bluffing, but she says Banner will survive as the Hulk, but before she can set off the explosives, he shoots her, wounding her.  Slater is about to kill Sandra, and wound Banner with the machine gun, (to bring out the Hulk) so he can take out the Hulk with the Hulk gun but his gun jams, and Sandra pulls the trigger on the explosives.  Before the shack goes up in the explosion, we see Banners eyes glowing green, and she yells at him to find her son.

Cut to later, where we see smoke and flames rising from the cabin, and Banner has just finished burying Slater and Verdugo in a couple of graves a short distance away.  As he walks off onto the horizon, a new purpose in life, (to find Ricky Myers) we see a burnt hand burst up from one of the two graves.  Apparently, at least one of these two figures is still alive

References:  None, other than what was mentioned above.  Hes still in the Kansas area.

Hulk #40
Boiling Point
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Lee Weeks

Appearances:  Bruce Banner, New Character: Sally Riker, New Character:  Special Agent Pratt, New Character:  Harry, (the crazed gunman).

Synopsis:  ISSUES 40-43 HAPPEN OVER THE COURSE OF ONE DAY.

We open with a shot of a trailer out in the middle of the woods.  Inside, we see a woman dressed in a cops outfit, staring sadly at herself in the mirror.  Attached next to the mirror is a cut out story from a newspaper, the headline reads Denver Swat Negotiator resigns:  Blamed for Deaths in Bank Hostage Bungle  She pulls out a bottle of sleeping pills, and stares at them sullenly.

We cut to a man in a business outfit, (suit and tie) sitting in his office at some corporate business.  He has a distraught look upon his face.  A headline from the news on his computer reads that stocks are down today.  Apparently business isnt fairing well.  He pulls out a bottle of whiskey hes kept hidden in his drawer and takes a swig.   He looks ready to pull his hair out.

We cut to  Bruce Banner, who steps out of a logger truck (he hitched another ride) and waves goodbye to the trucker, and turns to walk towards the nearest town, which we see just over the next hill.  A sign posted nearby reads Welcome to Miser, Colorado, Population 100,000  Theres a y spray painted onto the end of Miser, so that it now reads Misery, Colorado.  Apparently Banner is destined to meet up with these other two individuals.

Cut back to the woman in the trailer, whom we soon learn is named Sally Riker.  She pours a couple of sleeping pills into her hand.  She stares at them.  Then she pours 5 or 6 more.  Then she pours out the entire bottle into her hand.  Shes apparently contemplating suicide.

Cut back to the man in his office.  The mail is being handed around now.  Its getting close to the end of the work day going by the time on the clocks, (though theres two different times on two different clocks).  This man gets a letter which is from his bosses upstairs, which reads basically, Dear Harry, were sorry, but because of low sales, were having to let you go.  Clean out your drawer by the end of the day.  He seems to take it in stridetill he reaches in his drawer, and we see hes kept a revolver hidden inside.

Cut to a short time later, where we see Banner walking into a ReadyMart convenience store, to grab a soda and a snack.  Suddenly, he hears the sound of someone yelling at the person behind the cash register.  Its Harry, whos waving his gun in the cashiers face.  There is a small group of little girls, (probably just got off from school) in the store as well, and Banners the only other person in the store.  Harry yells at Banner to come out from behind that aisle to where he can see him.  Banner tells Harry to stay calm.  Harry says, Are you trying to play hero?  Dont do it, man!  And for an instant, in Banners head, we see him transform into the Hulk, and we see the Hulk pick up Harry like a ragdoll, and start to tear him apart, but in panic, Harrys firing off every round in his gun wildly, and one of the bullets hits one of the girlsand we cut back to reality to see Banner didnt transform, and he cant as long as there are innocent bystanders in here who could get hurt.  He tells the gunman to stay frosty.

Suddenly, a cop walks in, (probably just wanted to grab a donut) and sees the gunman and starts to draw his gun, but Harry shoots him, and he collapses to the ground wounded, just inside the door.  He calls over his walkie-talkie Officer Down.  Back up is on the way. 

Cut to Sally, who is asleep on her bed.  The phone rings, she answers it.  She says Where? and springs into action, strapPing on her gun and badge, and heading out the door.  We see inside her sink:  she didnt take all those sleeping pills, she dumped them in the sink in frustration.

Sally quickly arrives at the scene in a take charge manner.  Police are now swarming around the Ready Mart.  She gets the operator to patch her through to inside the Ready Mart.  As the phone rings, Harry yells at Banner to pick up the phone.  Banner explains the situation to the cop, and Sally tells Banner shes going to use him as a gobetweener.  She tells Banner to tell the gunman theyll try and meet his demands, hell just have to give them time.  She tells Banner if ever something bad is about to happen, and he needs to communicate that to her without putting himself in danger, he needs to say Everythings cool.

Suddenly, just as Sallys starting to take control of the situation, 2 or 3 Black cars drive up, and out step some men who claim to be FBI.  The person in charge of these MIB individuals is an Agent Pratt, a huge Black man with dark shades, (think the Black Kingpin from the Daredevil Movie).  He takes the phone away from Sally and steps away from her, and says to the person on the other end that the FBI is taking over.  Upon hearing Banners voice on the other end,  he says, Good afternoon, Mr. Banner. 

Banners eyes light up in fear.  Harry demands to know whats going on, and Banner says The FBI is here.  Harrys confused:  What do the Feds want with a conveniance store robbery?

Sally, (still demanding to be placed back in charge) asks that she at least be given the chance to officially hand control over to the FBI.  Agent Pratt gives the phone back to her momentarily.  She steps away from Pratt and says shes sorry about this, but the FBI is taking control.  She says shell hope for the best.  Banner says one thing:  Lieutenant?  Everythings Cool.  Thats the codewords for trouble Sally gave him.  Sallys eyes light up, as she realizes that something is seriously wrong here.  Pratt grabs the phone away from her, and Sallys left wondering what to do next.

References:  Banners in Colorado now, and his head is still bald, so not too much time has passed since the last storyline set in Kansas.  Its either days, or perhaps a couple of weeks, since the last storyarc, if I had to guess.  But perhaps thats flexible

Bruce is wearing a thick winter type coat

Hulk #41
Poker Face
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Lee Weeks

Appearances: Bruce Banner, Sally Riker, Agent Pratt, Harry, (the crazed gunman)

Synopsis: PICKS UP WHERE LAST ISSUE LEFT OFF, SAME DAY.

Sally, who wants to be a part of this hostage crisis, and who also wants to figure out what Bruce was trying to warn her about, asks Pratt to be a part of the mission. She asks Pratt to work for him, to go into the Ready Mart and talk one on one with the madman. He agrees, deciding to use her for his own purposes. He reveals the only reason the FBI is here is because the person she was talking to over the phone is a man wanted by the FBI.  He tells Sally to make a deal with the madman: if he releases Mr. Smith, (thats the name Banners used for himself when talking to Sally on the phone) then the FBI will leave, and Sally and the hostage taker can resolve their differences on their own.  She agrees. Agent Pratt then places an FBI badge on her, to make it look official.

She walks in, and tells Harry the deal: if he lets Mr. Smith, (Banner) go, then the Feds will leave. Harry agrees, and starts to march Bruce out the door, but Bruce says its a trick, and that if they let Banner fall into their hands, theyll kill everyone in here, to make sure theres no witnesses. He reveals hes really Banner on the run from this secret organization, and after begging Harry not to fall for it. Banner says hes trying desperately not to turn into the Hulk, because thats exactly what the S.C. wants. He also remembers that gun Slater had that could take down the Hulk.

Harry had been whining about all he ever did from day to day was help people at his job, and what did he get in return: he got fired, and divorce papers from his wife. Banner says that he didnt kill that cop that entered the store earlier, just wounded him. He still has a chance to help him make things right by helping Banner, who reveals hes on a quest to find the missing Ricky Myers. Banners playing on his emotions, saying he still has a chance to make things right.

Sally reveals she believes some of what Banner says, because theres no way the FBI would descend on a conveinance store so rapidly.  

Harry asks why she has so much invested in this situation, and he says he remembers seeing her on the news a few months back. She reveals she was in charge of a Denver swat team and Hostage unit, and she bungled a job a few months back. A gang had taken hostages in a bank, and they knew if they shot the leader, the rest of the gang would crumble, but Sallys police sniper under her command got injured, and so she had to rush up to his sniper post, and take the shot, but she couldnt bring herself to do it, she froze, and when she finally fired, she only grazed the gang leader. An all out gun battle commenced, and a little girl held hostage inside died. She quit the Denver police force, and moved here to Miser, Colorado. She says she contemplated overdosing on sleep pills this morning, but finally told herself that shes a policewoman, and she has to be around to help others. A few minutes later, she got the phone call to come to this store and deal with this crisis.

Harry notes theyre all here in need of redemption. He decides to believe Banners tale, and they concoct a plan where they let the kids go, (the little kids are still in the store) and theyll escape out the back. They do that, but as the kids are running out the front door, Harry steps in front of the window for a brief instant and one of Pratts men snipes him.  

Sally immediately jumps to the conclusion theyre really FBI, and pulls a gun on Bruce.  But he says theyre messing with him, trying to get him to panic and become the Hulk. He also figures out that they must be listening to them somehow, and just before another shot comes through the window, Banner tackles Sally to protect her, and takes the bullet for her, wounding him.  

He pulls off Sallys badge, and flips it over, revealing a listening device.  She suddenly knows hes telling the truth, (since they did try and shoot her as well) and she sees Banners eyes are lighting up green, (from the adrenaline from the wound he just took). She knows, (and Agent Pratt knows from listening in) that all hells about to break loose.

References:  none really.  Harry says weve seen you all over the news, Banner.  You killed that little boy in Chicago. Which I just take to mean that maybe since the Hulks Chicago rampage is still fresh in everyones mind, its still happened somewhat recently

Hulk #42
All Fall Down
written by Bruce Jones
drawn by Lee Weeks

Appearances: Bruce Banner, Sally Riker, Agent Pratt.

Synopsis:  CONTINUES FROM LAST ISSUE. AND THERES LESS TALK, MORE ACTION THIS TIME AROUND.

Agent Pratt pulls out a weapon from a briefcase, (its a copy of the strange looking Hulk stopper gun that Slater had, and waits. Suddenly, the Hulk bursts forth from the convience store and starts tearing up the landscape.  Pratts about to fire, but in the resulting panic, everyones fleeing and knocking him over. He finally gets close enough to get a shot off, and the strange bullet hits the Hulk, who marches over to Pratt, and Pratts like Cmon, fall down!!! and just before the Hulk can beat up Pratt, the Hulk falls to the ground unconscious. This is after all the civilians watching the hostage scene have fled from the Hulk, and all the police are either fled or unconscious, or worse.  

Sally digs herself out of the rubble of what was once the conveniance store, just in time to see the Pratt and one of his men loading Banner up into a car.  The rest of Pratts men have driven off in a hurry, and Pratt and this one other guy are the only ones left.  The other guy asks why they still need Banner, since they got a vial of the Hulks blood, (which was their purpose). Pratt starts reciting some poetry, (the Ryme of the Ancient Mariner) and takes the vial of Hulk blood, and shoots his accomplish. Now exactly why he shot him, Im not certain, but either his partner was a real FBI agent, and Pratts killing him since he now works for the S.C., (in latter issues, we learn that Pratt really was an FBI agent, but has gone rogue), or he wanted the glory of bringing the vial and Banner back to the Homebase all to himself, or hes just insane. Its probably a little of all 3.

As he drives off, Sally gets up and stumbles around, just as a new line of police cars pull up. The leader of this group of policemen say they're from the next town over, and had heard of the hostage situation, and decided to provide backup, but they didnt expect to see all this: it looks like an earthquake hit. The policeman says hell take charge, and that suits Sally just fine, she picks up a policemans rifle, and when they arent looking, slips into an empty police cruiser and races off down the road in pursuit of Pratt.

Meahwhile, Banner, (his hands and feet all tied up) wakes up in the seat next to Pratt.  Banner warns Pratt he doesnt know who hes messing with, and Pratt scoffs it off, saying that bullet he hit the Hulk with was filled with enough sedatives to knock out a herd of elephants. Hes not scared of seeing the Hulk anytime again today. 

References:  Green trees in the woods as Banner and Pratt leave town.  Im frankly not sure what season theyre in right now.  The trees depicted are Pine trees though, so they dont really lose leafs, or anything, so its not like they had leaves that change color or anything on their branchesAnd the sky was dark in this issue, which tells me that the hostage crisis lasted for hours, and we are at dusk.

Hulk #43
The Beast Within
written by Bruce Jones
drawn by Lee Weeks

Appearances:  Bruce Banner, Sally Riker, Agent Pratt

Synopsis:  CONTINUES FROM LAST ISSUE.  IT IS AFTER DARK NOW

Sally is looking at a map of Miser State Park, trying to determine which way Pratt would have gone with Banner. She feels its up to her to save Banner, cause he took a bullet for her. She suddenly remembers that Banner put the FBI badge with the listening device into his pocket right before turning in the Hulk. She checks all the police frequencies, hoping to stumble across them. She finally over hears them talking on one frequency, and she hears Banner commenting on road signs theyre passing by, (apparently, Bruce remembers the listening device is still in his pants pocket as well. Just a good thing Banner doesnt lose his pants when he transforms, I suppose). Sally drives off in a hurry, taking a road thatll put her ahead of Pratt, (she knows this area much better than Pratt does, she reasons, and can take him by surprise).

Meanwhile, Banner asks Pratt what the Secret Conspiracy wants with him.  Pratt says its not him, really, its the Hulks blood. They want the key to Banners strength. He says theyve been experimenting on test subjects with a synthesized version of the Hulks blood, but it always makes the patients grow disproportionately, (making the person grow erratically, till they explode). The S.C. figures the answer lies somehow in obtaining a real sample of the Hulks DNA.

Pratt turns the conversation back to whats apparently a favorite poem of his, the Ryme of the Ancient Mariner by Samuel Coleridge, which, (in case you wondered) is a poem about a sailor who is punished by God after he kills an Albatross. God strikes dead all of the other sailors on his ship, and forces the Sailor to sail on a bizaare Odessey filled with monsters and hallucinations, in search of redemption. Pratt makes a point to compare the Sailors plight to Banners own. Banner says if theyre gonna make comparisons, then Banner sees himself as the Mariner, and he sees Pratt as the Albatross. Hes starting to get the look in his eye again, (and sees in his mind the picture of the beautiful bikini woman, which he uses to focus.  In other words, hes using his meditation techniques to BRING OUT the Hulk).  

Suddenly, a glint hits Pratts eyes. Its Sally, whos parked her car on the next ridge above, and is aiming her rifle at Pratt to kill him. This time, she assures herself, that shell shoot to kill. But Pratt spots her from a gleam given off from the setting sun hitting the guns scope, and hits the brake. She fires, and the bullet zips by where his head might have been a second later. She curses, and gets back into the car, and drives down the road towards Pratts car. Pratt looks over to Banner, to see if the bullet hit Banner, only to see that hes now staring into the face of the rapidly transforming Hulk, and whom has caught the bullet between his teeth, (its gotta be one of the coolest splash pages Ive seen in a while).

Hulk starts bursting out, tearing up the car, and Pratt loses control. The car starts skidding towards the edge of a cliff, but Sallys cruiser speeds around the corner and hits the other vehicle dead on, to prevent it from going over the edge. Hulk gets up and walks around, slightly confused. He turns back around to see Pratt has dragged Sally from her car and is now holding her over the edge of the cliff, his gun in one hand. He declares that what they have here is a classic Mexican Standoff. He demands that Hulk turn back into Banner, (he knows Banners in there somewhere, and can hear him) otherwise hell let Sally fall to her death. Hulk has a look of indifference on his face, but doesnt move. Sally makes the choice for them, and reaches into Pratts coat while dangling from the air, and takes out the syringe vial full of the Hulks blood, stabbing Pratt in the chest with it. In shock, he drops her, and she falls.  

As the Hulk watches, Pratt starts to grow in size, his head, chest, and arms taking on giant, (but deformed) proportions. He comments that this is exactly what happened to the test subjects: no ability to gain control over the rapidly growing flesh, and that Banner must have found the solution, but he then explodes, into bit of greenish goo

Sally is dangling from an embankment, (apparently the cliff slopes a bit before dropping off completely) but shes about to fall, when we see Banners hand reach down and grab her arm. He helps her up, and they both stare down at what was Pratt, and they leave after coming to an understanding: He walks off into the sunset, and she walks back into town, quoting from the Ancient Mariner, The Many Men, so beautifuland they all dead did lieand a thousand thousand slimy things lived onand so did I. Sorry, but as a literature/writing major in college, I got a kick out of this.

References:  It appears to be Sunset of that same day.  I suppose it could be the sun rising the next morning, cause Im not sure how time has passed sinces the Hulks rampage last issue, but probably not too longthe sky is gloomy and dark in this issue, (but not pitch black)

Thats it for now.  The 2nd half of Bruce Jones run on the Hulk is forthcoming soonthat would be issues 44 to 54, if you were wondering

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Re: Chronology reviews for Hulk Issues #34-43, for Paul's Calender...
Posted by Russ Chappell on June 04, 2003 at 21:28:34:
In Reply to: Chronology reviews for Hulk Issues #34-43, for Paul's Calender...
posted by Kevin  on June 04, 2003 at 17:52:26:

Outstanding job, Kevin.

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology reviews for Hulk Issues #34-43, for Paul's Calender...
Posted by Kevin  on June 05, 2003 at 18:59:34:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology reviews for Hulk Issues #34-43, for Paul's Calender...
posted by Russ Chappell on June 04, 2003 at 21:28:34:

Thanks, Russ.  It's heartening to get a compliment from the "Master of Marvel Chronology".

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Re: Chronology reviews for Hulk Issues #34-43, for Paul's Calender...
In Reply to: Chronology reviews for Hulk Issues #34-43, for Paul's Calender...
posted by Kevin  on June 04, 2003 at 17:52:26:

Thanks, Kevin, for the detailed analysis.  My inclination for now is to place these issues in a two-week period in late November/early December, months after the late May setting of Order #6.  Late November provides us with cold weather and a full moon, while I calculate a warm spell across the nation circa Nov. 30-Dec. 1, where I currently place both the outdoor wedding in UX 425 (this week's issue) and H3 38 ("the hottest day of the year," well, maybe of the season).

Of course, references in the next set of Hulk issues may force me to alter this, so I look forward to your next post.

Paul

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Re: Chronology reviews for Hulk Issues #34-43, for Paul's Calender...
Posted by Kevin  on June 05, 2003 at 19:04:28:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology reviews for Hulk Issues #34-43, for Paul's Calender...
posted by Paul Bourcier on June 05, 2003 at 17:34:29:

Sounds good to me.  I'll have the next batch ready hopefully within 2 weeks time, (I'm trying to get these things done in 2 week cycles)...

By the way, I noticed that I left the abbreviation for M.F. in a couple spots in my reviews:  That stands for Mystery Figure, which I was going to use to describe the figure shrouded in black, but I in later issues found this guy to be codenamed S-1(one of the leaders of the Secret Conspiracy), and so I started using that instead of M.F.

It just felt better to write M.F. and S.C. for Mystery Figure and Secret Conspiracy, which I find to be somewhat silly names on a certain level.

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" Bucky's Sister ! "
Posted by jgbook2002 on June 04, 2003 at 21:04:28:

Ome of the last , if not the last , issues of the late-90s CAPTAIN AMERICA series intro'd? a prev.-unmentioned? sister for Bucky , accepting the folded flag presented in his honor when a statue of him was unveiled . 

She was shown as an elderly woman , with a married name added on ( So - yes - maybe you listed her under that ! ) , with the mention that she and Bucky had been , as teenagers , seperated , in the 30s , after their parents' deaths , and had never met each other physically again . 

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Re: " Bucky's Sister ! "
Posted by Peter Fabricius on June 05, 2003 at 02:51:35:
In Reply to: " Bucky's Sister ! "
posted by jgbook2002 on June 04, 2003 at 21:04:28:

Bucky's sister was first seen in Marvel Holiday Special #1 (Jan. 1992) story number 5, her name is Rebecca P. Barnes Proctor, also seen are an elderly man, probably her husband, her child with spouse, no way of knowing if the man or woman is her child. And lastly 2 grandchildren Scotty and Kimmie.

She is not listed in the MCP, and the story does not seem to be in Captain America's chronology either.

The story covers december 24th and 25th  .

So we need to find a christmas close to Cap #395, published the same month, or at least a christmas during the time of the Avengers Headquartes building. Av. #329 to #375.

Peter

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Re: " Bucky's Sister ! "
Posted by jgbook2002 on June 05, 2003 at 14:13:27:
In Reply to: Re: " Bucky's Sister ! "
posted by Peter Fabricius on June 05, 2003 at 02:51:35:

...Well , then , it would seem to be fairly definite that she DOES exist , then , right ?

The " Chronology " part isn't my main concern , but , are those for whom it is waiting to work her out , B4 listing her ?

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Re: " Bucky's Sister ! "
Posted by FunkiTron, the Break Dancing Robot on June 07, 2003 at 15:52:06:
In Reply to: " Bucky's Sister ! "
posted by jgbook2002 on June 04, 2003 at 21:04:28:

> One of the last , if not the last , issues of the late-90s CAPTAIN AMERICA series intro'd? a prev.-unmentioned? sister for Bucky , accepting the folded flag presented in his honor when a statue of him was unveiled . 

This happened in Cap'n America #48 (vol. 3).

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Who's who in UX 425
Posted by Paul Bourcier on June 05, 2003 at 15:22:00:

I'm trying to get a handle on all the people in UX 425; the art doesn't really help, given that Philip Tan tends to make a lot of faces look the same.

Definitely there:
Havok, Polaris, Archangel, Nightcrawler, Iceman, Cyclops, Phoenix IV, Wolverine, Juggernaut, Northstar, Husk, Jubilee, Xorn, Professor X, Annie Ghazikhanian and her son.

I think I account for the following as well:
Wolfsbane, Magma, Forge, Domino II, Soldier X, Meltdown II, Maverick

No apparent sign of:
White Queen II, Chamber, Storm, Gambit, Rogue, Bishop, Sage, Thunderbird III, Cannonball II, Beak, Angel V, Basilisk II, Martha Johansson, Ernst, Stepford Cuckoos, Stacy X (no surprise there), Fantomex, Lockheed

Unsure (are they there?):
Banshee, Siryn, Multiple Man, M, Jesse Bedlam, Shadowcat, Karma, Moonstar, Rictor, James Proudstar, Sabra, Lila Cheney

Can anyone help?

--Paul

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Re: Who's who in UX 425
Posted by Jeph! on June 05, 2003 at 18:42:32:
In Reply to: Who's who in UX 425
posted by Paul Bourcier on June 05, 2003 at 15:22:00:

Ha -- I was JUST going to start this thread.

> I'm trying to get a handle on all the people in UX 425; the art doesn't really help, given that Philip Tan tends to make a lot of faces look the same.

No kidding.  Let me try to take this scene-by-scene.

The bachelorette party, pp.7-9:

I can identify Jean Grey, Polaris, Jubilee, and Northstar all sitting next to each other.  Out of the two blondes on p.8, the straight-haired one is presumably Husk -- and I'm guessing that the other is Magma.  The girl with the pigtails may be Dani Moonstar, and the curly redhead is probably the Scarlet Witch.  The brunette looks a LOT like Shadowcat.  That's everyone in that scene.

The bachelor party, pp.12-15:

Starting with Cyclops and going counterclockwise, we have probably Forge (mustache and ponytail), Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Havok, the Beast, Archangel, SOMEONE, a miscolored Quicksilver (note his costume), and the Juggernaut in the corner.

I have no idea who the guy between Quicksilver and Archangel is.  You can see a straight-on shot of him in the final panel of p.14 (under the "SLAM!" sound effect) -- he's wearing a gray shirt and has short blond hair.  Cannonball, maybe?

The wedding, pp.17-23:

On stage we have the Beast, Nightcrawler, Prof. X, Cyclops and Havok, with some blonde woman.

First row, the bridesmaids:  looks like Rahne?, Magma?, Jubilee, and Husk, with Jean standing.  Next row back: Shadowcat?, probably Dani Moonstar and an unknown blonde.  Unknown man at end of the row.

Third row back, I see possibly Gambit and Rogue (her hair is miscolored, but I see the streaks), and three men -- the middle one looks like Northstar, but I can't identify the other two.

Fourth row: two unknowns, Iceman, Annie, and Carter.

Fifth row:  unknown, Domino, two unknowns, and Wolverine.  If Domino is there, the large man to her left (our right) MIGHT be Cable/Soldier X (note the lines on his right eye), and the woman to the right of HIM MIGHT be Meltdown.  But that may be pushing things.  That's all I can see on the left.

On the right, I can see the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver in the front row.  Two rows behind them is likely Forge, and the row behind him is Xorn.  Can't identify anyone else on the right side.

There are two blondes (one wearing the low-cut dress among the bridesmaids, one next to Forge) in the audience that MIGHT be Emma Frost, but I doubt it very much.

That's all I can identify in this scene.  No sign of Archangel or Juggernaut in the audience -- perhaps they're off-panel on the right.

On p.19, we see Polaris being led down the aisle by her adopted father, Mr. Dane.  The dress of the woman behind Annie (Meltdown?) has changed.  Odd.

P.20 - an unnamed priest is the only new addition I can see.

P.21 - we get a better look at "Meltdown" behind Annie, and I don't think the hairstyle supports it.  It's probably not her.  No sign of Cable/Soldier X behind Iceman, so maybe that's not him either.  Domino's missing from that scene, but she may just be off-panel (and Cable may just be beind Iceman's head).  The angel's hard to tell.  The woman clutching at her heart in the front row in panel 4 is likely Lorna's adopted mother.

P.22 - Down the left side, we have an unknown blond (Archangel?), Forge, the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Xorn, Jean Grey, and Cyclops.

Going across the top, we have what appears to be the Hulk (but must be an artist-colorist gag, and might be a miscolored Juggernaut), an unknown blonde, what appears to be Corsair and Hepzibah (moustache but no ponytail, and white skin but no patch, so it's not Forge and Domino).

Down the right side, I see the Beast, Shadowcat?, an unknown boy, Magma?, Iceman, Carter, and Annie.

Across the bottom, I see Husk, Nightcrawler, Prof. X, Wolverine, and Jubilee.

Hopefully next issue will give us some more insight as to who's at the wedding.  That's all I can identify -- a full list is:

Definite:
Archangel, the Beast, Cyclops, Mr. Dane, Domino, Annie Ghazikhanian, Carter Ghazikhanian, Havok, Husk, Iceman, Jubilee, the Juggernaut, Nightcrawler, Northstar, Phoenix IV, Polaris, Professor X, Quicksilver, Wolverine, Xorn

Very probable:
Corsair, Mrs. Dane, Forge, Mam'selle Hepzibah, the Scarlet Witch

Possible / probable:
Gambit, Magma, Dani Moonstar, Rogue, Shadowcat, Soldier X

Possible / improbable:
Cannonball, Meltdown, the White Queen, Wolfsbane

Very improbable: the Hulk

I don't see any sign of Maverick, Paul.  And from your "are they there?" list, I don't see Banshee, Lila Cheney, Karma, M, the Multiple Man, Rictor, Sabra, Siryn, or Warpath anywhere.  And as for Jesse Bedlam, the "previously" page in UX #424 pretty much confimred that he died in #423.

Hope that helps...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Who's who in UX 425
Posted by Paul Bourcier on June 05, 2003 at 21:49:02:
In Reply to: Re: Who's who in UX 425
posted by Jeph! on June 05, 2003 at 18:42:32:

> > I'm trying to get a handle on all the people in UX 425; the art doesn't really help, given that Philip Tan tends to make a lot of faces look the same.

> No kidding.  

It's difficult when you have to go by hair colors and styles to differentiate people who have looked very different from one another under other artists.  And it doesn't help when the coloring is off!  It's pretty bad when an X-afficionado like yourself has trouble IDing the characters!

> The bachelorette party, pp.7-9:

> I can identify Jean Grey, Polaris, Jubilee, and Northstar all sitting next to each other.  Out of the two blondes on p.8, the straight-haired one is presumably Husk -- and I'm guessing that the other is Magma.  The girl with the pigtails may be Dani Moonstar, and the curly redhead is probably the Scarlet Witch.  The brunette looks a LOT like Shadowcat.  That's everyone in that scene.

That hair is definitely Wanda's style, and if Quicksilver were invited for the reason I mention below, then I suppose Wanda would have been invited too.  Dani Moonstar?  The ONLY clue to that ID is the braided pigtails; the face holds no clue that this woman is Cheyenne (dang-blasted art).  Husk should be correct, given that a woman positively identified at the wedding has the same part-in-the-middle style.  Magma would make sense; unfortunately the woman here is too "anonymous blonde" thanks to Tan.

> The bachelor party, pp.12-15:

> Starting with Cyclops and going counterclockwise, we have probably Forge (mustache and ponytail), Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Havok, the Beast, Archangel, SOMEONE, a miscolored Quicksilver (note his costume), and the Juggernaut in the corner.

Hm. Quicksilver, eh?  I have to admit the miscoloring of Pietro's costume and hair and hair style and face completely threw me (I was thinking... what's a skinny, blonde Doc Samson doing here??).  And I completely forgot about the fact that Havok and Quicksilver were once teammates in X-Factor.  That team provides reason to believe that Madrox and Wolfsbane should be there, and, come to think of it, perhaps Val Cooper is one of the anonymous blondes at the wedding?

> I have no idea who the guy between Quicksilver and Archangel is.  You can see a straight-on shot of him in the final panel of p.14 (under the "SLAM!" sound effect) -- he's wearing a gray shirt and has short blond hair.  Cannonball, maybe?

No flippin' clue here.  Face looks like "Quicksilver's" from a different angle.

> The wedding, pp.17-23:

> On stage we have the Beast, Nightcrawler, Prof. X, Cyclops and Havok, with some blonde woman.

> First row, the bridesmaids:  looks like Rahne?, Magma?, Jubilee, and Husk, with Jean standing.  Next row back: Shadowcat?, probably Dani Moonstar and an unknown blonde.  Unknown man at end of the row.

Your IDs make sense here.  That blonde woman and the guy to her left are mysteries.

> Third row back, I see possibly Gambit and Rogue (her hair is miscolored, but I see the streaks), and three men -- the middle one looks like Northstar, but I can't identify the other two.

Gambit and Rogue is a stretch; if that's who they are, the art and coloring is truly bad.  The streaks I read as light and shadow; the guy on the left reminds me of Scooby Doo's Shaggy (what's up with the chin?).  I've pegged the guy in the middle as Wolverine.  The other two guys...who knows?

> Fourth row: two unknowns, Iceman, Annie, and Carter.

How about James Proudstar as the first guy (hey, why the heck not)?  The next guy: Xavier's clone.

> Fifth row:  unknown, Domino, two unknowns, and Wolverine.  If Domino is there, the large man to her left (our right) MIGHT be Cable/Soldier X (note the lines on his right eye), and the woman to the right of HIM MIGHT be Meltdown.  But that may be pushing things.  That's all I can see on the left.

Having identified Domino by face paint alone (and that's not quite right either), I surmised that the man to her left was Soldier X, and the scarring on the eye seems to confirm that.  So who else are they teamed up with these days?  There's Meltdown (okay, the other woman in the aisle), then there's Maverick (guy on the far left?).  The last guy?  Blaquesmith with an image inducer?

> On the right, I can see the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver in the front row.  Two rows behind them is likely Forge, and the row behind him is Xorn.  Can't identify anyone else on the right side.

The guy next to Xorn...Soldier X's mirror image?

> There are two blondes (one wearing the low-cut dress among the bridesmaids, one next to Forge) in the audience that MIGHT be Emma Frost, but I doubt it very much.

I'd say the blonde to Forge's left might be Val Cooper.  That would make sense, anyway.

> That's all I can identify in this scene.  No sign of Archangel or Juggernaut in the audience -- perhaps they're off-panel on the right.

Northstar too, along with Corsair and Hepzibah.

> On p.19, we see Polaris being led down the aisle by her adopted father, Mr. Dane.  The dress of the woman behind Annie (Meltdown?) has changed.  Odd.

> P.20 - an unnamed priest is the only new addition I can see.

> P.21 - we get a better look at "Meltdown" behind Annie, and I don't think the hairstyle supports it.  It's probably not her.  No sign of Cable/Soldier X behind Iceman, so maybe that's not him either.  Domino's missing from that scene, but she may just be off-panel (and Cable may just be beind Iceman's head).  

Yes, but people seem to have shuffled around here.  Where did that overweight lady and the black guy come from?  Given that this panel really doesn't match the grand scene three pages earlier, I wouldn't discount Nathan or Tabitha.

> The angel's hard to tell.  The woman clutching at her heart in the front row in panel 4 is likely Lorna's adopted mother.

> P.22 - Down the left side, we have an unknown blond (Archangel?), Forge, the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Xorn, Jean Grey, and Cyclops.

> Going across the top, we have what appears to be the Hulk (but must be an artist-colorist gag, and might be a miscolored Juggernaut), an unknown blonde, what appears to be Corsair and Hepzibah (moustache but no ponytail, and white skin but no patch, so it's not Forge and Domino).

Good call here.  Of course Corsair would be here...he's the groom's dad!  It would make sense that he'd bring Hepzibah.  Where are Raza and Ch'od and Cr'ee?  Again, the unknown blonde might be Val Cooper.  The man and woman to the right of Hepzibah...who knows?

> Down the right side, I see the Beast, Shadowcat?, an unknown boy, Magma?, Iceman, Carter, and Annie.

Sounds good to me.  Who IS that boy?

> Across the bottom, I see Husk, Nightcrawler, Prof. X, Wolverine, and Jubilee.

And perhaps Cannonball between Wolvie and Jubes.

> Hopefully next issue will give us some more insight as to who's at the wedding.  That's all I can identify -- a full list is:

> Definite:
> Archangel, the Beast, Cyclops, Mr. Dane, Domino, Annie Ghazikhanian, Carter Ghazikhanian, Havok, Husk, Iceman, Jubilee, the Juggernaut, Nightcrawler, Northstar, Phoenix IV, Polaris, Professor X, Quicksilver, Wolverine, Xorn

> Very probable:
> Corsair, Mrs. Dane, Forge, Mam'selle Hepzibah, the Scarlet Witch

> Possible / probable:
> Gambit, Magma, Dani Moonstar, Rogue, Shadowcat, Soldier X

> Possible / improbable:
> Cannonball, Meltdown, the White Queen, Wolfsbane

> Very improbable: the Hulk
> I don't see any sign of Maverick, Paul.  And from your "are they there?" list, I don't see Banshee, Lila Cheney, Karma, M, the Multiple Man, Rictor, Sabra, Siryn, or Warpath anywhere.  And as for Jesse Bedlam, the "previously" page in UX #424 pretty much confimred that he died in #423.

> Hope that helps...

Yes, Jeph, that does help.  I think Tan MEANT to place a lot of established characters in these scenes, but he just didn't pull it off well.  Maybe next issue's "Previously" page should provide a scorecard with which we can tell all the players.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Who's who in UX 425
Posted by Jeph! on June 06, 2003 at 00:49:32:
In Reply to: Re: Who's who in UX 425
posted by Paul Bourcier on June 05, 2003 at 21:49:02:

> > The bachelorette party, pp.7-9:

> > Jean Grey, Polaris, Jubilee, Northstar, presumably Husk, may be Dani Moonstar, the Scarlet Witch.  The brunette looks a LOT like Shadowcat.

> That hair is definitely Wanda's style, and if Quicksilver were invited for the reason I mention below, then I suppose Wanda would have been invited too.

I started to think in terms of weddings -- generally, the invites go out in pairs: PERSON X is invited, plus ONE DATE.  I started to use this logic to winnow out possible or probable invitees.

Example: Quicksilver IS there at the bachelor party -- who would he have brought?  He's not dating anyone/married currently -- looks like he brought his sister.

> Husk should be correct, given that a woman positively identified at the wedding has the same part-in-the-middle style.

Plus, Husk was the one whispering gossip at the wedding about what happened at the party.  She MUST have been there.

> Magma would make sense; unfortunately the woman here is too "anonymous blonde" thanks to Tan.

That could actually be Val Cooper, come to think.  Does Lorna even KNOW Magma?

> > The bachelor party, pp.12-15:

> > Cyclops, probably Forge, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Havok, the Beast, Archangel, SOMEONE, Quicksilver, and the Juggernaut

> I completely forgot about the fact that Havok and Quicksilver were once teammates in X-Factor.  That team provides reason to believe that Madrox and Wolfsbane should be there

I agree -- I've upgraded Wolfsbane's status as one of the bridesmaids as "highly probable" -- but there's no way on earth she would have gone to something as decadent as Lorna's bachelorette party.

And that mystery blond man at the bachelor party may be a miscolored Madrox, since Austen was clearly thinking about old X-Factor teammates.  (Now where's Strong Guy?)

> perhaps Val Cooper is one of the anonymous blondes at the wedding?

Probably.

> > The wedding, pp.17-23:

Thinking about the bridesmaids, in #422 Lorna tells her mother she wants SIX of them, and Jean as the maid of honor.  Looking at the front two rows (which hold five people each), there are eight women.  The five in the front row wear identical dresses -- presumably it's the maid of honor (Jean) and four bridesmaids (Husk, Jubilee, Wolfsbane and maybe Shadowcat).  Where are the final two bridesmaids?  Maybe she settled on four?

Someone else is standing onstage to the Beast's left, but I can't make out gender.  Possibly one of the other two missing bridesmaids.

The second row is taken up by three women wearing DIFFERENT dress styles (the redhead on the end is similar but not perfect -- she's missing the rose the other four are wearing), and two men.  (Look behind Jean's arm, you can see a tuxedo front.

I have NO clue who the redhead is (could it possibly be Siryn??  Does Lorna KNOW Siryn?), but that's likely Dani Moonstar and Val Cooper there.  If that's Val, the man next to her may be the Multiple Man -- and if so, he may actually be BOTH men in that row, just for yucks.  ;-)

> > Third row back, I see possibly Gambit and Rogue (her hair is miscolored, but I see the streaks), and three men -- the middle one looks like Northstar, but I can't identify the other two.

> Gambit and Rogue is a stretch; if that's who they are, the art and coloring is truly bad.

I'm starting to think it IS them.  After all, Lorna expressed an unhealthy fascination with Gambit at the party -- given her mental state these days, she probably invited him just to have a look at him.

> The streaks I read as light and shadow

I'm sure that's what the colorist read them as too -- but imagine that picture in black and white.  Those are obvious white streaks then.

> the guy on the left reminds me of Scooby Doo's Shaggy (what's up with the chin?).

This is why I say it's Gambit: he's so scruffy!

Besides, look at the way they're sitting: whoever they are, they're couple.  Also note that Rogue's dress has full sleeves.  I say it's them.

> I've pegged the guy in the middle as Wolverine.

Nah.  Wolverine's sitting on the aisle of the fifth row.  You can see him there more clearly on p.20, panel 4.

> The other two guys...who knows?

I say it's Northstar in the middle (with the parted grey hair) and his date on the aisle.  Young and blond, yum!

No idea who the middle guy, leaning forward unhappily is -- but he's NOT Wolverine.

> > Fourth row: two unknowns, Iceman, Annie, and Carter.

> How about James Proudstar as the first guy (hey, why the heck not)?

Ehh, he's too small to be Warpath.  he looks the same height as the balding glasses-guy next to him.  I vote they're just random relatives.

> > Fifth row:

> Having identified Domino by face paint alone (and that's not quite right either)

No kidding -- why is her chest PINK?  Sadly, though, that's DEFINITELY Domino.

> I surmised that the man to her left was Soldier X, and the scarring on the eye seems to confirm that.

I agree.

> So who else are they teamed up with these days?

I don't think it matters -- remember what I said about the invitations.  Soldier X was invited because he's family, and he brought Domino as his date -- but I highly doubt that invites would go out to "hey, bring whoever you're teamed up with!"

Given that the close-up of the girl on p.21 doesn't look a THING like Meltdown, I feel that Nate and Dom are the ONLY members of the Underground in attendance.

> there's Maverick (guy on the far left?).

That doesn't look a THING like Maverick.  Heck, it looks more like Mathemanic, from old New warriors issues.  I see scrawny and glasses.

> The last guy?  Blaquesmith with an image inducer?

Fella, that's Wolverine.  And the girl next to him is probably his date (which would explain the red hair when we see her again on p.21).

> The guy next to Xorn...Soldier X's mirror image?

Looks like Baron Strucker to me.  What's with the monocle he appears to be wearing?

> I'd say the blonde to Forge's left might be Val Cooper.  That would make sense, anyway.

I think, if she's there at all, she's Madrox's pity-date over on the left.  Either way, I feel safe in saying she's in this panel somewhere.

> Northstar too, along with Corsair and Hepzibah.

I think Northstar is in the third row.  Corsair, Hepzibah, and Archangel MUST be off to the right, but I don't know if the Juggernaut got an invite.

> > P.21 - we get a better look at "Meltdown" behind Annie, and I don't think the hairstyle supports it.  It's probably not her.

> Yes, but people seem to have shuffled around here.  Where did that overweight lady and the black guy come from?  Given that this panel really doesn't match the grand scene three pages earlier, I wouldn't discount Nathan or Tabitha.

I discount Tab just because she was unlikely to have received an invitation -- and I assume that, from the angle, we're actually seeing TWO rows back.  Iceman and Annie have stood up, as has Logan and his curly-redhead date, and everyone else is sitting in the row behind THAT.  Soldier X is likely still seated and blocked by Iceman's frame, and Domino is obscured by panels 1-2.

> Of course Corsair would be here...he's the groom's dad!  It would make sense that he'd bring Hepzibah.  Where are Raza and Ch'od and Cr'ee?

Again, if the invites were given out the way I think they were, "bring the Starjammers" wouldn't have been an option.  Father of the groom, plus a date.  That's it.

> the unknown blonde [in the top row] might be Val Cooper.

I'm more thinking that the one we've been identifying as Magma is actually Val.  Meaning, she's the one on the RIGHT.  So the blonde on top is still unidentified.

> The man and woman to the right of Hepzibah...who knows?

Presumably anyone unidentified is just part of Lorna's family.  She was talking about inviting QUITE a few people in #422.

> Who IS that boy?

Random Dane family nephew?

> > Across the bottom, I see Husk, Nightcrawler, Prof. X, Wolverine, and Jubilee.

> And perhaps Cannonball between Wolvie and Jubes.

Nah.  At this point, Sam was probably still either in Paris or with the X-Treme Team -- and I don't see anyone else from the X-Treme Team here.  (Except Logan, who hops teams, and Gambit and Rogue, who aren't WITH the team these days ... but you know what I mean.)  I doubt Cannonball is in attendance.

> Very improbable: the Hulk

I'm now seriously believing that this is supposed to be Juggy.  The hairstyle matches what we saw on p.4.

> Maybe next issue's "Previously" page should provide a scorecard with which we can tell all the players.

I've actually e-mailed the moderater of Chuck Austen's X-Fan message board, asking him to ask Chuck to specify who was SUPPOSED to be in the issue.  Cross your fingers.

And anyone we can't identify?  It's the Multiple Man again.  ;-)

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Who's who in UX 425
Posted by Paul O'Brien on June 06, 2003 at 04:48:22:
In Reply to: Re: Who's who in UX 425
posted by Jeph! on June 06, 2003 at 00:49:32:

> And anyone we can't identify?  It's the Multiple Man again.  ;-)

Alex and Lorna both spent some time in the outside world working as civilian geologists.  So it's not too much of a stretch to write off any unidentifiable characters as friends from university or work who've just never cropped up on panel.  Or even, in Lorna's case, fellow survivors of Genosha.

			*	*	*

Re: Who's who in UX 425
Posted by Toad on June 15, 2003 at 14:46:42:
In Reply to: Re: Who's who in UX 425
posted by Paul O'Brien on June 06, 2003 at 04:48:22:

I thought Magma died...

I didn't read 423, but I thought it said that in 424 Magma was dead. Or something like that, that only Jubilee survived.

			*	*	*

Re: Who's who in UX 425
Posted by Jeph! on June 15, 2003 at 17:07:45:
In Reply to: Re: Who's who in UX 425
posted by Toad on June 15, 2003 at 14:46:42:

Yes, the "Previously" page in #424 did say that only Jubilee survived, but it was wrong.

Magma DID survive (#423 shows her sitting up and drinking some water), and in fact she's going to be one of the main characters of the current "New Mutants v2" series.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Ecstacy / Ecstasy
Posted by Jopili on June 06, 2003 at 12:55:44:

ECSTACY or ECSTASY?
RENE or RENEE?

jp

http://marvelinitalia.cjb.net

			*	*	*

Re: Ecstacy / Ecstasy
Posted by Jeph! on June 06, 2003 at 14:25:33:
In Reply to: Ecstacy / Ecstasy
posted by Jopili on June 06, 2003 at 12:55:44:

> ECSTACY or ECSTASY?
> RENE or RENEE?

Up or down?
Big or small?
Yes or no?

The word is spelled "Ecstasy".  The character is named "Stacy X".  And the feminine version of "Rene" is "Renee".

> http://marvelinitalia.cjb.net

That explains it.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Ecstacy / Ecstasy
Posted by Jopili on June 07, 2003 at 00:49:10:
In Reply to: Re: Ecstacy / Ecstasy
posted by Jeph! on June 06, 2003 at 14:25:33:

Are you joking or what? I was speaking about the character ECSTACY/MM.E RENE DELADIER (on the MCP) but on other sources I found the name "ECSTASY" and "RENEE" instead of "RENE".

My question was: which is the right name?

			*	*	*

Re: Ecstacy / Ecstasy
Posted by Jeph! on June 07, 2003 at 13:34:19:
In Reply to: Re: Ecstacy / Ecstasy
posted by Jopili on June 07, 2003 at 00:49:10:

> I was speaking about the character ECSTACY/MM.E RENE DELADIER (on the MCP)

Man alive, you could have SAID that in the first place...

> but on other sources I found the name "ECSTASY" and "RENEE" instead of "RENE".

> My question was: which is the right name?

Well, I don't have any of the books the character appeared in, but my prior answer stands: the proper English spelling of the word is "Ecstasy".  I don't know if that's how the CHARACTER spells it, although it *probably* is.

Also, the feminine version of the name "Rene" is generally "Renee" -- and the character appears to be a woman, from the "Mme." -- but that also means she's French, and I have no idea how the name "Rene/Renee" works in France.  It could be either way.

Best bet is to pick up a copy of any of the books she's in and look for yourself.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Ecstacy / Ecstasy
Posted by Jhaeman on June 07, 2003 at 20:15:52:
In Reply to: Re: Ecstacy / Ecstasy
posted by Jeph! on June 07, 2003 at 13:34:19:

The Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe lists the character's name as Ecstacy in the body of the text, but as Ectasy on the list of characters.  My guess is the first is correct, as the body of the text is adapted from a role-playing game supplement. The site lists Renee as the character's real first name.  The Unofficial Handbook can be accessed through the links pages of www.marvunapp.com

Jhaeman

			*	*	*

Re: Ecstacy / Ecstasy
Posted by Jopili on June 08, 2003 at 02:23:37:
In Reply to: Re: Ecstacy / Ecstasy
posted by Jhaeman on June 07, 2003 at 20:15:52:

Jeph!:

> Man alive, you could have SAID that in the first place...

Excuse me, I'm not English and I have some difficult with the language...

I don't have the opportunity to see the original issues (the italian translation was "ESTASI")

On the original covers of "Cloak & Dagger" series I saw she was called always "ECSTASY". (So I didn't find her on the MCP...)

Jhaeman:

>The Unofficial Handbook can be accessed through the links pages of www.marvunapp.com

UNOFFICIAL HANDBOOK TO THE MU (http://www.users.xeroanime.com/~handbook/noframes.htm) reports:
ECSTASY (on the list)
ECSTACY / Renee Deladier (on the individual page)

MARVEL GUIDE (http://www.comicboards.com/marvelguide/) reports:
ECSTASY/Cloak II / Rene Deladier

MARVEL DIRECTORY (http://www.marveldirectory.com) reports:
ECSTACY (on the list)
ECSTASY / Renee Deladier (on the individual page)

			*	*	*

French language mistreated again!
Posted by French Thom on June 09, 2003 at 11:36:49:
In Reply to: Re: Ecstacy / Ecstasy
posted by Jopili on June 08, 2003 at 02:23:37:

Ok, I have those issues, and she is called Ecstasy, aka Mme Renee Deladier, despite correct French spelling should be Rene. But it's quite usual anyway for American writers to mistreat the french language, and create more French villains than heroes anyway...

Which leads me to this topic: are there any other French heroes than Fantomex and Le Prgrine (which name, by the way, is not listed in any french dictionary, but Prgrin is, which means, in ancient Rome, a free citizen who was neither Latin or Roman)?

I know a lot of French villains (including the Grey Gargoyle, Princess Python, Ecstasy, Batroc, and some other second zone villains who appeared in books like Master of Kung-Fu...) but almost no heroes...

Anyone here knows some that I don't?

Thank you!

			*	*	*

Re: French language mistreated again!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on June 09, 2003 at 21:14:15:
In Reply to: Re: French language mistreated again!
posted by French Thom on June 09, 2003 at 11:38:03:

> Le Prgrine (which name, by the way, is not listed in any french dictionary, but Prgrin is, which means, in ancient Rome, a free citizen who was neither Latin or Roman)?

The correct nom-de-plume should have been Le Plerin (Peregrine falcon).  I could see problems if they decided on a plain old falcon (Le Faucon).

Anyway, there are heroes whose cultural heritage is French, although they are not French nationals -- Aurora, Northstar, and Gambit.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: French language mistreated again!
Posted by French Thom on June 11, 2003 at 16:22:00:
In Reply to: Re: French language mistreated again!
posted by Paul Bourcier on June 09, 2003 at 21:14:15:

> > Le Prgrine (which name, by the way, is not listed in any french dictionary, but Prgrin is, which means, in ancient Rome, a free citizen who was neither Latin or Roman)?

> The correct nom-de-plume should have been Le Plerin (Peregrine falcon).  I could see problems if they decided on a plain old falcon (Le Faucon).

That's actually the way his name is translated in french versions of the comics in which he appeared: Le Faucon Plerin.

> Anyway, there are heroes whose cultural heritage is French, although they are not French nationals -- Aurora, Northstar, and Gambit.

I remember of Karma from the New Mutants often speaking in French which is quite logical, coming from Viet-Nam, a former French colony.

Monet Saint Croix (which should be Sainte Croix, croix (cross) being a feminine word).

But Gambit, Northstar and Aurora did probably learn the French language in China...

Almost none of the writers making them use French words had the curiosity to check in a dictionary before the printing... (I remember quite well Gambit saying "Ma Chre" to men!)

By the way, i stopped reading US comics (too expansive now...) and read the French translations, and we are 10 months late, so Fantomex just appeared last month here. Does he appear some more in recent issues of any Marvel comic? From the last two issues I read of New X-Men, he seems to be the best original character to appear in any X-Title (with Xorn). Anyone has any idea if he's gonna be under the spotlight anytime soon (or maybe he is already)?

Thank you!

French Thom

			*	*	*

Fantomex is back
Posted by Paul Bourcier on June 11, 2003 at 21:13:32:
In Reply to: Re: French language mistreated again!
posted by French Thom on June 11, 2003 at 16:22:00:

> Anyone has any idea if he's gonna be under the spotlight anytime soon (or maybe he is already)?

He's in the current storyline in X-Men (issues #141-142).

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Re: French language mistreated again!
Posted by Michel on June 13, 2003 at 12:13:54:
In Reply to: French language mistreated again!
posted by French Thom on June 09, 2003 at 11:36:49:

> Which leads me to this topic: are there any other French heroes than Fantomex and Le Prgrine

for french readers, there's this excellent Yahoo group about France in the Marvel Universe 

http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/lafrancedansluniversmarvel/

Michel

www.comicsvf.com

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Re: Ecstacy / Ecstasy
Posted by French Thom on June 09, 2003 at 11:12:55:
In Reply to: Re: Ecstacy / Ecstasy
posted by Jeph! on June 07, 2003 at 13:34:19:

Also, the feminine version of the name "Rene" is generally "Renee" -- and the character appears to be a woman, from the "Mme." -- but that also means she's French, and I have no idea how the name "Rene/Renee" works in France.  It could be either way.

Correct french spelling is Ren for a man and Rene for a woman.

Don't forget the acute accent, it's minus 2 points in a dictation if you do! :)

			*	*	*

IVAN PETROVITCH...DONALD PIERCE..."PINKY" PINKERTON
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 06, 2003 at 17:19:59:

new entries marked **

PETROVITCH, IVAN
DD 115
**DD 117
DD 120

PIERCE, DONALD
UX 129
**UX 130  - pg 6/5. unnamed, (sitting in shadow on podium at far left)
UX 132

PINKERTON, PERCIVAL "PINKY"
I know the Marvel war comics are not part of the MCP, but seeing as how the character listing is already in the MCP and the new entries are in comics OTHER than the war mags, I thought Id throw them in
SGTF 13 ~ CA 383/2
SGTF 13
**M/CP 77/3
**M/CP 78/2
**M/CP 79/2
**CA 273
**CA 274

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#93

			*	*	*

Black Panther v3 #18-22?  Need help
Posted by Paul Bourcier on June 07, 2003 at 08:24:39:

I'm pushing the calendar back a little bit, working with Iron Man's chronology and thinking that A '00 will need to be moved on the MCP list to after IM:BB 4.  But I'm missing a piece of the chronological puzzle here -- his appearance in BP3 19.  I don't have issues #18-22 of Black Panther vol. 3.  Can anyone provide a synopsis of each of these issues, with character appearances and temporal references?  Thanks in advance.

Paul

			*	*	*

Code of Honor 2
Posted by David Hall on June 07, 2003 at 20:17:35:

I noticed that this book is correctly listed in Storm's chronology, but left out of some of the other characters.  I can only speak for the x-characters myself.)

I propose the following be added to the MCP listings:

Angel (probably appears between hulk ann 7, and UX 132)

Storm (already listed, no change needed)

Phoenix II (should be listed the same way Storm is, with an appearance in COH 2 in between pages of UX 135)
(should also get a BTS app. in between UX 134 and 135 for blowing up x-men's plane, see below)

Mastermind (appears in between hi BTS apps. in UX 135, and UX 169)

Sebastian Shaw  (appears between panles on page 6 of UX 135)

Senator Robert Kelly  (appears between panles on page 6 of UX 135)

We see the X-Men's plane blowing up over Central Park (containing Storm, Cyclops, Wolverine, Colossus, and Nightcrawler) from the last panel of ux 134/first panel of ux 135.  This should at least get these characters a BTS app. in COH2 in between these issues. (Like it already does for Storm in her MCP listing)

lso, we see the Hellfire CLub guards that Wolverine cut up (some dead)  I forget thier names.

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Re: Code of Honor 2
Posted by Jeph! on June 07, 2003 at 20:38:46:
In Reply to: Code of Honor 2
posted by David Hall on June 07, 2003 at 20:17:35:

> Also, we see the Hellfire CLub guards that Wolverine cut up (some dead)  I forget thier names.

Murray Reese, Wade Cole, and Angelo Macon?  The ones that went on to become Reavers?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Code of Honor 2
Posted by David Hall on June 07, 2003 at 21:56:37:
In Reply to: Re: Code of Honor 2
posted by Jeph! on June 07, 2003 at 20:38:46:

Well in the orginal Uncanny x-men 133, Wolverine climbs out of a sewer, into a cellar/storage room in the Hellfire club basement, cuts up a few (Angelo, Murray, Cole named) Hellfire guards (there are four shown, though one talks instead of getting cut up by Logan.)  In Code of Honor 2, we see, floating in the sewer, the bodies (not necessarily all dead) of 6 hellfire club guards.

Then in the next panel, they bring one up, on a stretcher in what appears like a body bag.

Now in UX 133, Logan attacks the guards in the cellar, not in the sewer, so either he, or possibly Shaw dumped some bodies (possibly a few unwanted employees that he could blame on the x-men) down in the sewer.

There is no reason to assume that 3 of these are Cole, Macon, and Reese, Unless we also assume Logan dumped them in the sewer.  The fact that there are 6 bodies makes one kind of wonder.

Dave

			*	*	*

Marvel Comics Presents 75/3
Posted by David Hall on June 07, 2003 at 22:26:10:

In Phoenix III's listing MCP 75/3 is listed incorrectly as 73/3.

It is correct in Shadowcat, Captain britain, and Meggan's entries.

David

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SKYHAWK & WIND-WARRIOR
Posted by Jopili on June 08, 2003 at 04:46:24:

*** New Entries

Appearances of the Earth-Force:

SKYHAWK
*** T 395
*** T 396
*** T 397
*** T 398
*** T 399
*** T 400
T@ 16/3-FB
T@ 16/3
T 456

WIND-WARRIOR
*** T 395
*** T 396
*** T 397
*** T 398
*** T 399
*** T 400
T 426/2
T@ 16/4
T 456

jp

http://marvelinitalia.cjb.net 

			*	*	*

The Foreigner's Ancestry ?
Posted by John Omohundro on June 09, 2003 at 13:03:40:

Just curious:

Has the ancestry of "The Foreigner" ever been conclusively determined?

I know that at least one Marvel-related site ("Marvel Guide: An Un-Official to the Marvel Universe", http://www.comicboards.com/marvelguide) lists his place of birth as an "Unrevealed location in England". I was wondering if there was any canonical MARVEL COMICS GROUP information supporting this.

Also, as his name, "Rafael Basil Sabitini", could be of Italian, Sicilian, or possibly Corsican derivation (especially given his somewhat Mediterranean appearance), I suppose that he could be the English-born child of foreign immigrants.

As a side note, the real Rafael Sabatini (spelled with an "A" between the "B" and the "T", rather than an "I") was the Italian-born son of opera stars--his father was an Italian tenor, his mother an English soprano. He was responsible for such classic early 20th-Century novels as "Captain Blood" and "The Sea Hawk".

			*	*	*

PLANTMAN...PLUTO...POLARIS
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 10, 2003 at 19:28:07:

new entries marked **

PLANTMAN/SAM SMITHERS
CA 159
**DEF 36
DEF 37

..  ..  ..  ..  ..

A 227
**A 230
A 231

PLUTO [OLYMPIAN]
CHAMP 1
**CHAMP 2
CHAMP 3

POLARIS/LORNA DANE
UX 145
**UX 146-FB (pg 11/4 to pg 28)
UX 158

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering!

#94

			*	*	*

Marvel Universe: The End
Posted by Paul Bourcier on June 11, 2003 at 21:23:40:

I just finished reading Jim Starlin's 6-issue mini-series, Marvel Universe: The End.  I seem to recall reading sometime before it came out that the series is not meant to be canon.  I figured that if the series ends with the annihilation of the Marvel Universe, it would safely fall into non-canon status.

But, although the MU does indeed end in issue #6, it is restored by the end of the issue.  I suppose canonicity would be determined by two results of the mini-series:

1) Thanos is dead and will never, ever return  (if he pops up again, we'll know that The End is non-canon)

2) Death in the MU is now final -- no one can die and be resurrected anymore (no more Hellcat or Nighthawk stunts, no more Korvac-type annihilation and resuscitation of Avengers, no more Captain Marvel-like destruction and restoration of the universe, no hope for Mockingbird).  If this happens again to anyone, The End would be non-canon.  

Come to think of it, Genis' obliteration of the MU in a recent issue of Captain Marvel would be placed chronologically after The End, meaning The End cannot be canon.

Any other opinions before we add The End to the non-canon list?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Universe: The End
Posted by Russ Chappell on June 11, 2003 at 23:59:26:
In Reply to: Marvel Universe: The End 
posted by Paul Bourcier on June 11, 2003 at 21:23:40:

> 2) Death in the MU is now final -- no one can die and be resurrected anymore. 

How likely is *that*?

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Universe: The End
Posted by Jim on August 16, 2003 at 19:07:19:
In Reply to: Re: Marvel Universe: The End
posted by Russ Chappell on June 11, 2003 at 23:59:26:

> > 2) Death in the MU is now final -- no one can die and be resurrected anymore. 

> How likely is *that*?

I agree that this is not very likely, but I'm beginning to like the idea of this story being canon.  What I'm having trouble with is the physics (?!) of resurrection.

It seems to me that yes, no hope for Mockingbird, no hope for Bucky, no Hellcat/Nighthawk fiascoes...but, a reality wipeout and reality put back in place almost gets away from this, it doesn't seem like the same thing.  Trickier is the Korvac style wipeout and resurrect, but then with powers like that it might not 'really' be death.  It could be ... hold on to souls under my own power and put them back in, while simultaneously rehashing the molecules of the destroyed body etc.

But that is all straying a little.  Here's my challenge (barring Marvel just messing it up anyway and resurrecting someone after this story)... Why not?  Why not canon?  Personally I have the events all taking place quite nicely in my collection.  I think the cancer in the universe that Thanos eliminated is this...NO ONE ESCAPES DEATH'S REALM.  It's possible that Cap Marvel and Entropy took out EVERYTHING...including the realm of death, so that doesn't count.  And if a Korvac type were to come along and "kill" a slew of do-gooders we could ask ourselves "Did they go to Death's Realm or did some power manipulate things to hold their souls or what have you."

Thanks for listening. 

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Universe: The End
Posted by Jeph! on August 17, 2003 at 23:18:32:
In Reply to: Re: Marvel Universe: The End
posted by Jim on August 16, 2003 at 19:07:19:

> Here's my challenge ... Why not?  Why not canon?

From early interviews, it's looking like Starlin's upcoming "Thanos" series might actually be spinning OUT of "The End" -- which would either make "Thanos" non-canon, or pull "The End" INTO canonicity.

I'm getting the idea that when Starlin said that "The End" doesn't happen in the Marvel Universe, all he meant was that, even though he really DID destroy the Marvel Universe, since Thanos put it back at the end of the series, technically the events "didn't happen" in the MU.  (Except, the way we see it, they did.)

We'll see when "Thanos" #1 comes out in October, but if The End IS canon ... man, where do it fit?

I'll start -- after X-Treme X-Men #9, thanks to Red Lotus' appearance in The End #1, and since XX #9 comes after X #114, and Prof. X is himself (ie, not possessed by Cassandra Nova) and wheelchair-bound in The End #1, sometime between X #126-127.

Next?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Universe: The End
Posted by Jim on August 19, 2003 at 19:06:49:
In Reply to: Re: Marvel Universe: The End
posted by Jeph! on August 17, 2003 at 23:18:32:

Thanks Jeph.  Personally, I was just liking it as canon and so had it in the collection as such, but you went above and beyond and even helped me place it.

You're right, we'll have to wait and see, but if Thanos is the star of the upcoming, how did he escape the no escape clause he himself set up?  Arrgh!

Jim

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Universe: The End
Posted by Paul O'Brien on June 12, 2003 at 14:19:18:
In Reply to: Marvel Universe: The End
posted by Paul Bourcier on June 11, 2003 at 21:23:40:

> I just finished reading Jim Starlin's 6-issue mini-series, Marvel Universe: The End.  I seem to recall reading sometime before it came out that the series is not meant to be canon.

I'm pretty certain you're correct on that.  It was deliberately written to be more or less consistent with the status quo, but it isn't intended as canon.

That alone renders it non-canon, I'd say, unless somebody chooses to bring it into continuity as a later date.

			*	*	*

Yandroth
Posted by Michel on June 13, 2003 at 12:29:31:

I've just re-read my Essential Dr Strange and the first apparition of Yandroth in Strange Tales #164-168. And I've noticed Yandroth is just listed in Strange Tales #168 in the MCP, though he does appear in each of the five issues.

Michel

			*	*	*

In between H2 Issues 225 and 226...
Posted by Jason Powell on June 13, 2003 at 16:46:09:

Say...

Long time fan, first time poster.

Just looking at your Hulk chronology... I noticed you have a whole big load of stuff taking place chronologically between Incredible Hulk 225 and 226.

Now, grant you, I've never read the stuff you've put between them, but I know H2 225 and 226, and the latter takes place moments after the former.  Unless some sort of time travel is involved, no way could The Hulk have been palling around with the Defenders -- or anyone else -- between those two issues.

If it helps, the closest breaks in the action of that series around that time -- to my recollection -- are between TIH 222 and 223 and then in between 227 and 228.  But everything from 223-227 is pretty much an unbroken arc of events for The Hulk.

Jason

			*	*	*

What Happened ? ( Spidet Strip Posting )
Posted by jgbook on June 13, 2003 at 17:06:35:

What happened to my posting re: the Spider-Man syndicated strip ? Have I got thrown out of another? board ? Granted , I put about 3 up - I kept trying to get a link up , it wouldn't seem to go up . Some rule against " plugging groups elsewhere " ?

			*	*	*

Re: What Happened ? ( Spidet Strip Posting )
Posted by Administrator on June 13, 2003 at 21:01:14:
In Reply to: What Happened ? ( Spidet Strip Posting )
posted by jgbook on June 13, 2003 at 17:06:35:

jgbook,

They were deleted because they were off-topic. I'd like for messages to have some relevance to character chronologies or appearances.

There's no rule against "plugging groups elsewhere." That's why we offer the option to include a link in your message. But when the message *exists solely to plug a group elsewhere*, it'll usually be deleted.

Welcome to the board, and if you have any contributions of a chronological nature, we look forward to hearing from you again.

			*	*	*

Re: What Happened ? ( Spidet Strip Posting )
Posted by jgbook2002 on June 14, 2003 at 19:21:40:
In Reply to: Re: What Happened ? ( Spidet Strip Posting )
posted by Administrator on June 13, 2003 at 21:01:14:

...I've posted several times before , and , the posting WAS NOT there just to plug my group - I'm not even doing it now , in part , to prove my point !!!!!!!!!

  The deleted posting brought up the ? of the syndie strip , which is in its own continuity - I was going to say , or , in fact , I may have actually brought up in the posting , some matters of the strip's own timeframe/world , though perhaps I did not get to it...

 In fact , I had the question of the strip's own internal consistency in mind , which would appear to fit into the very thing you're talking about ! If it's " we only write about mainstream Marvel continuity " , well , I see there's posts concerning the Universe X/etc. comics , which are also not in Marvel continuity - I'd think that everything Marvel Comics oriented could get at least a little squeeze room in here !

  For that matter , at least once , in the past , the comic book side of Marvel published a story advertised as a crossover between the Spidey syndie and mainstream Marvel , though they seem to have backed away from that since then !    

			*	*	*

Re: What Happened ? ( Spidet Strip Posting )
Posted by Administrator on June 14, 2003 at 20:22:55:
In Reply to: Re: What Happened ? ( Spidet Strip Posting )
posted by jgbook2002 on June 14, 2003 at 19:21:40:

I hope you'll read this in the spirit it's intended, which is to help you understand what we're trying to do here...

> ...I've posted several times before , and , the posting WAS NOT there just to plug my group - I'm not even doing it now , in part , to prove my point !!!!!!!!!

>   The deleted posting brought up the ? of the syndie strip , which is in its own continuity - I was going to say , or , in fact , I may have actually brought up in the posting , some matters of the strip's own timeframe/world , though perhaps I did not get to it...

I read your posts (all three of them) and, in fact, you "did not get to it". I don't delete posts lightly, as you yourself point out below.

>  In fact , I had the question of the strip's own internal consistency in mind , which would appear to fit into the very thing you're talking about! 

Fine. Tell us what's on your mind about the strip's internal consistency.

> If it's " we only write about mainstream Marvel continuity " , well , I see there's posts concerning the Universe X/etc. comics , which are also not in Marvel continuity - 

What you say here is true, as far as it goes, but it doesn't go far enough. We've held discussions here recently about Ultimate Universe and 2099, but it's not fair to say they were posts about the comics, when in fact, they were posts about the *chronologies* of these comics.

I'm usually flexible if people post a message asking a question about what happened in a particular story, without any chronological significance attached to the question. It's true, I usually don't delete those, although they are, strictly speaking, off topic.

What we had in your case was three messages, posted one after the other, which said, basically, "Hey, guys, what does everyone think about the Spider-Man comic strip? Go to this site!"

No apologies for deleting those kinds of messages.

> I'd think that everything Marvel Comics oriented could get at least a little squeeze room in here !

And you would be incorrect. The "who'd win? Thor or Hulk?" threads get deleted pretty quickly in these parts. Posts seeking to sell those Green Goblin statuettes don't last more than a couple of hours. We're not here to discuss "everything Marvel Comics oriented"; We're interested in the order of the stories, the order of the appearances.

>   For that matter , at least once , in the past , the comic book side of Marvel published a story advertised as a crossover between the Spidey syndie and mainstream Marvel , though they seem to have backed away from that since then !    

There, see? Nothing wrong with that. If you have something of a chronological nature to discuss, or want to theorize that a particular story is or is not canon, your post is welcome. If you plan on posting comments about the chronology of the Spider-Man comic strip, you probably won't get a ton of responses, because it's not really what we're about here, but I won't delete it.

Fair enough?

			*	*	*

Re: What Happened ? ( Spidet Strip Posting )
Posted by jgbook2002 on June 15, 2003 at 18:24:10:
In Reply to: Re: What Happened ? ( Spidet Strip Posting )
posted by Administrator on June 14, 2003 at 20:22:55:

...I was , in those postings , trying to indroduce myself , and , the concept of talking abput the syndie , AND , get the fact that it , by Marvel's own statements , exists in its own continuity , out of the way , so that nobody would inform me of the fact . 

  That was , probably , all the time I had to post then , I do a lot of my posting under circunstances where I have very short amounts of time available in which to do it .

  My posting concerned comics published by Marvel , not sales of statues or a " who's bigger/more rad ????????? " inquiry , although , granted , you didn't say directly that my postings were saying that .

  The linl didn't go up - That's why I tried to put it up again . I guess it never did go up , I shall never know - I'll try , here , again .

			*	*	*

Omega the Unknown/Demon
Posted by Mithrandir on June 13, 2003 at 22:31:40:

Could anyone identify for me that name of the "demon" woman in the 10th and final issue of Omega the Unknown?  I unfortunately don't have the Defenders issues which pick up this storyline and, I presume, identify her.

In addition, several Omega supporting characters are not listed in the project, including:

Barrow, Dr.
Dian (last name unknown)
"Gramps" (nickname presumably, but no other name given)
Grant, Amber
Hart, Ruth
Nedley, John
Nick (last name unknown)

Unless of course, that Defenders story reveals OU 1-10 all to have been some sort of dream sequence, though that seems unlikely as the project contains OU appearances of Foolkiller II, Electro, Nitro and Richard Rory.

			*	*	*

Re: Omega the Unknown/Demon
Posted by Michel on June 14, 2003 at 12:49:25:
In Reply to: Omega the Unknown/Demon
posted by Mithrandir on June 13, 2003 at 22:31:40:

> Could anyone identify for me that name of the "demon" woman in the 10th and final issue of Omega the Unknown?  I unfortunately don't have the Defenders issues which pick up this storyline and, I presume, identify her.

She's Ruby Thirsday, one of the Headmen

Michel

			*	*	*

Re: Omega the Unknown/Demon
Posted by Mithrandir on June 14, 2003 at 12:54:24:
In Reply to: Re: Omega the Unknown/Demon
posted by Michel on June 14, 2003 at 12:49:25:

Thanks much.

			*	*	*

PORCUPINE...GRACE POWELL...ALEXIS PRIMO
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 14, 2003 at 08:39:38:

new entries marked **

PORCUPINE/ALEX GENTRY
DEF 63
**DEF 64
DEF 65

POWELL, GRACE
DHAWK 25
**DHAWK 47
**DHAWK 48
**DHAWK 49
**DHAWK 50

Similar additions for JASON, JON and MIKE POWELL

PRIMO, ALEXIS
TER 1
**TER 3
TER 6

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#95

			*	*	*

Merlin in Eternals
Posted by Mithrandir on June 14, 2003 at 12:53:25:

In Eternals #4 Sersi has a flashback in which she describes teaching Merlin during the time of King Arthur.

My suspicion is that the person she actually "taught" was Merlin II, later known as the Warlock and eventually the Maha Yogi.  She claims that Merlin "didn't really have much talent" until she showed him some things.  As this seems fairly incongruous with the actual Merlin who seems to have been very magically adept, it strikes me as much more possible that she was inspiring the future Maha Yogi to uncover his own latent mutant powers.  True, the Merlin in the flashback does not terribly resemble the Maha Yogi, but the Yogi's powers were extensive, certainly allowing for him to restructure his appearance or at least appear to do so.

What do you think of this?  If true it would constitute a new first chronological appearance of the Maha Yogi.

			*	*	*

Re: Merlin in Eternals
Posted by Jeph! on June 14, 2003 at 13:09:30:
In Reply to: Merlin in Eternals
posted by Mithrandir on June 14, 2003 at 12:53:25:

There was a huge discussion about Merlin, Merlyn, and the Maha Yogi awhile back that can be found here:
http://chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/messages/3713.htm
and here:
http://chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/messages/3831.htm

A lot of stuff was tossed around, and it's rather rambly, but I think the general conclusion we came to was that this WAS the real Merlin.  Possibly his earliest appearance in King Arthur's court, still not magically adept but learning from every source.

The alternative is that the poor bastard's being impersonated AGAIN, which given the sheer number of impersonations over the years by BOTH men listed above seems unlikely.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Maha Yogi has earlier chronological appearances
Posted by John McDonagh on June 14, 2003 at 23:54:25:
In Reply to: Merlin in Eternals
posted by Mithrandir on June 14, 2003 at 12:53:25:

> What do you think of this?  If true it would constitute a new first chronological appearance of the Maha Yogi.

Actually, the Maha Yogi's appearance in Doctor Strange III#27, which reveals that he gained his powers from the Caretakers of Arcturus would predate this Eternals appearance. Also, Hulk I#210 has flashbacks showing the Maha Yogi observing the pyramids being built, the death of Caesar, etc. 

I should mention that when Jack Kirby wrote Eternals, it was not really intended to be Marvel Universe canon; the Eternals, Deviants, and Celestials were the only sci-fi elements. Gods such as Hercules and so forth were not supposed to actually exist; the Eternals and Deviants were the explanation for the figures in Earth's mytholgoies. However, since then, Eternals has become Earth-616 canonical.

It was apparently the writers of the Official Handbook who came up with the idea that Sersi helped defeat the Maha Yogi, possibly to account for that Merlin appearance. 

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Re: Maha Yogi has earlier chronological appearances
Posted by Mithrandir on June 15, 2003 at 12:12:51:
In Reply to: Maha Yogi has earlier chronological appearances
posted by John McDonagh on June 14, 2003 at 23:54:25:

> > What do you think of this?  If true it would constitute a new first chronological appearance of the Maha Yogi.

> Actually, the Maha Yogi's appearance in Doctor Strange III#27, which reveals that he gained his powers from the Caretakers of Arcturus would predate this Eternals appearance. Also, Hulk I#210 has flashbacks showing the Maha Yogi observing the pyramids being built, the death of Caesar, etc. <p>Fair enough.  Wasn't aware of the Hulk appearance.  My Hulk collection doesn't start until #250

> I should mention that when Jack Kirby wrote Eternals, it was not really intended to be Marvel Universe canon; the Eternals, Deviants, and Celestials were the only sci-fi elements. Gods such as Hercules and so forth were not supposed to actually exist; the Eternals and Deviants were the explanation for the figures in Earth's mytholgoies. However, since then, Eternals has become Earth-616 canonical.

Yes, the letters page of the original Eternals series is absolutely filled with debates over whether or not it should be considered part of the Marvel Universe, but obviously that's been decided since.

> It was apparently the writers of the Official Handbook who came up with the idea that Sersi helped defeat the Maha Yogi, possibly to account for that Merlin appearance. 

Yes, though it does fit quite well.  I am hard pressed to see the actual Merlin (or Merlyn, or both depending on which version you believe in)needing Sersi's help to uncover his powers.

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Re: Merlin in Eternals
Posted by jgbook on June 15, 2003 at 18:39:42:
In Reply to: Merlin in Eternals
posted by Mithrandir on June 14, 2003 at 12:53:25:

...It should be pointed out that an early Thor/JIM story , reprinted in the ESSENIAL book , has a Merlin - specified as being the one who worked with/for King A. , as well as being a " mutant " - waking up from his suspended animation , and fighting Thor , only to end back up in SA .

  As I said , this Merlin is very specifically stated as being the " real " one .

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Re: Merlin in Eternals
Posted by Peter Fabricius on June 16, 2003 at 02:43:01:
In Reply to: Re: Merlin in Eternals
posted by jgbook on June 15, 2003 at 18:39:42:

> ...It should be pointed out that an early Thor/JIM story , reprinted in the ESSENIAL book , has a Merlin - specified as being the one who worked with/for King A. , as well as being a " mutant " - waking up from his suspended animation , and fighting Thor , only to end back up in SA .

>   As I said , this Merlin is very specifically stated as being the " real " one .

And the one from the JIM 96 story is specifically stated in Hulk 210 to be the Maha Yogi not the real Merlin.

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Re: Merlin in Eternals
Posted by jgbook on June 16, 2003 at 13:27:37:
In Reply to: Re: Merlin in Eternals
posted by Peter Fabricius on June 16, 2003 at 02:43:01:

...Fine . Thank you . I didn't know that . Obviously , 1970s Marvel made , at that time , a decision to ret-con the JIM story , well past ten years later , inasmuch as , I'm sure , whoever wrote the JIM story was not thinking of the MY , I am very sure . That's why we have boards/discussions like this !

If I ever had that HULK I've long-forgot about it . 

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Folklore/Mythology adaptions breed numerous continuity probelms if not coordinated well
Posted by John McDonagh on June 16, 2003 at 11:17:47:
In Reply to: Re: Merlin in Eternals
posted by jgbook on June 15, 2003 at 18:39:42:

Sloppy continuity between mythology adaptions breed major continuity problems. It becomes worse if you consider the Hyborian Age, since it turns out that often they would invoke various gods from real-life mythologies there. However, since the Hyborian Age takes place before the time of ancient Egypt, Greece, etc., as someone once said (and I paraphrase), its not that Conan has the strenght of Hercules, Hercules has the strength of Conan. 

Take Set for example. 

1. Conan the Barbarian I#7 establishes that a god named Set was worshipped during the Hyborian Age. Based on Robert E. Howard's Set. 

2. Thor#240-241 introduces the Egyptian mythology Set (called Seth). We found out that he usurped the Hyborian god's worshippers.

3. Apocalypse claims to have been Set in X-Factor#24. 

What makes it more confusing is now that Eternals is in-continuity, not only do the actual gods exists, but now a whole gaggle of Eternals, Deviants, etc. have been mistaken for them!

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Spidey's middle name
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on June 16, 2003 at 08:28:37:

I don't have the book, but I've been told that in WEB OF SPIDER-MAN # 19, Peter's birth certificate is shown.  The name on it reads "Peter Benjamin Parker."

- StAkAr

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Re: Spidey's middle name
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 16, 2003 at 21:09:11:
In Reply to: Spidey's middle name
posted by StAkAr Karnak on June 16, 2003 at 08:28:37:

You've been informed correctly. Pete's birth certificate is indeed shown as "Peter Benjamin Parker."  City of New York.

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Ben Grimm & Logan
Posted by David Hall on June 17, 2003 at 19:56:05:

Question: Are we sure that Before the FF: Ben Grimm and Logan 1-3  happen after MCP 72-84?

I believe that it has to occur before Logan gets involved in the Weapon X program.

1st Logan does not use his claws at all in BG & L 1-3(which by itself means nothing)

2nd and more importantly: In the 1st issue of BG &L: Logan is driving his Lotus Seven.

If you look at MCP #72, and in Wolverine #48, you will see that Logan had the Lotus Seven with him when he was attacked, knock out, and brought to the Weapon X facility.  "Somebody's going to have to move the Lotus."

 3rd Also in Wolverine #48, Present Day Logan an Jubilee bust into the abondoned weapon x facility, and find the Lotus Seven, which has not been touched since.

There is NO way for Logan to have the car between MCP #73 and Wolverine #48.

4th the feel of the story in BG &L seems to me to be starring a more care free, less crazy Logan.  It's also clearly set in a time period equivelant to late 50's early 60's our world.  It seems more likely that Logan was on leave from Canadian Intellegnce in the peiod before he resigned (MCP #72)

What do you think?

David Hall

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Re: Ben Grimm & Logan
Posted by Jeph! on June 18, 2003 at 00:40:02:
In Reply to: Ben Grimm & Logan
posted by David Hall on June 17, 2003 at 19:56:05:

> Question: Are we sure that Before the FF: Ben Grimm and Logan 1-3  happen after MCP 72-84?

> I believe that it has to occur before Logan gets involved in the Weapon X program.

I'd buy that.  That's the vibe I got off it, too.

On the other hand, if by looking at the Thing's chronology it becomes impossible, then is it possible that Logan simply bought another Lotus?  I mean, if he liked the car and it was taken from him, he'd buy up another, right?

-Jeph!

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Re: Ben Grimm & Logan
Posted by Jeph! on June 18, 2003 at 13:39:40:
In Reply to: Re: Ben Grimm & Logan
posted by Jeph! on June 18, 2003 at 00:40:02:

I just re-checked things, and it can't work.

Wolverine #-1 takes place after Logan got the admantium -- meaning, after M/CP #84.  In it, Logan is flown to DC by a young pilot named Ben Grimm.

In the "Ben Grimm and Logan" series, Grimm RECOGNIZES Logan from that flight -- placing the series after W2 #-1, and AFTER Wolvie gets his adamantium.

Meaning, Wolvie's car in that series must just be a replacement for the one Weapon X stole from him.

By the way, doing my research for all this, I'm discovering that Wolverine and Guardian's pre-GSXM chronology is a MESS.  If I have some time I'll try to sort it all out later this week...

-Jeph!

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Re: Ben Grimm & Logan
Posted by David Hall on June 18, 2003 at 14:58:02:
In Reply to: Re: Ben Grimm & Logan
posted by Jeph! on June 18, 2003 at 13:39:40:

Jeph,

That would be great, Wolverine & Guardian could both use some chronology correction.

I did bnotice in looking at the issues again that the weapon x lotus 7 is green, and the BG & L one is red, though I would have just imagined that Logan had it repainted.  Could be a different car though.

Just keep in mind though, when redoing Wolverine's chronology, just how unstable his memory becomes post weapon x.  It's hard to rely on what he says for pre-GSXM hints.(How many times did he meet Carol Danvers for the first time, anyway?)

Oh, and Logan: Path of the Warlord isn't listed in the chronology.

Dave

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Re: Ben Grimm & Logan
Posted by Jeph! on June 18, 2003 at 16:26:42:
In Reply to: Re: Ben Grimm & Logan
posted by David Hall on June 18, 2003 at 14:58:02:

> Just keep in mind though, when redoing Wolverine's chronology, just how unstable his memory becomes post weapon x.

Actually, I'm worried about how unreliable his memory is for events PRE-Weapon X.

Hopefully most of the flashbacks will be objective ones, with other characters (like Mac) there to corroborate.  I'll see what I can come up with.

> Oh, and Logan: Path of the Warlord isn't listed in the chronology.

It's erroneously listed as "Wolverine: Path of the Warlord" on the "Closing the Gap" page.  If you'd like to contribute a chronology of the issue, please feel free -- nobody else has volunteered yet.

-Jeph!

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Re: Ben Grimm & Logan
Posted by David Hall on June 18, 2003 at 16:51:14:
In Reply to: Re: Ben Grimm & Logan
posted by Jeph! on June 18, 2003 at 16:26:42:

Thanks Jeph,

I have a feeling that after I'm done writing papers for class, I'll probably tackle a few X-related issues that are missing from the gap.  I actually used to do a bunch of that, before I quit reading comics for the last three years.  I had a few issues with Claremont and the six month gap.  By the way, is Russ still updating the site every month or so with info from the posting board, and gap submissions?

Thanks,
Dave

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Re: Ben Grimm & Logan
Posted by Administrator on June 18, 2003 at 18:37:05:
In Reply to: Re: Ben Grimm & Logan
posted by David Hall on June 18, 2003 at 16:51:14:

> By the way, is Russ still updating the site every month or so with info from the posting board, and gap submissions?

No, I'm not. I've been spending my available time trying to clean up the posting board, moving messages from the past eight months to the archives.

I've crossed my fingers and plan to post the next update by the end of this month, although it will concentrate on closing the 93-94 gap and incorporating corrections provided on the posting board, rather than very many recent books.

Oh, and Jeph, Wolverine's not the only one. Many long-standing characters need to have their pre-first-appearance chronologies examined closely. Particularly suspect are Professor X, Punisher, Iron Man, Thor and the Fantastic Four. I'm sure there are others.

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PRINCESS PYTHON...PROMETHEUS II...PUNISHER
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 18, 2003 at 16:27:10:

new entries marked **

PRINCESS PYTHON/ZELDA
DD 118
**PM 24
PM 25

PROMETHEUS II
**H2 368 (pg 4/9-4/10)
H2 369

PUNISHER
IM 112
**SS3 17
FF3 29

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#96

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Baron strucker
Posted by jeff on June 18, 2003 at 20:10:13:

Can someone list for me all of Baron Struckers Thunderbolts appearances?

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Re: Baron strucker
Posted by Jeph! on June 19, 2003 at 23:07:31:
In Reply to: Baron strucker
posted by jeff on June 18, 2003 at 20:10:13:

> Can someone list for me all of Baron Struckers Thunderbolts appearances?

Well, according to the resource page that is attached to this posting board (cough), he appeared in T-Bolts #5, behind-the-scenes in #50, and again in Citizen V #3.

'Course, Thunderbolts #57-up aren't ON the site yet, but I don't think he was in any of 'em.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Chronology review for Hulk Issues #44-54, for Paul's calender...
Posted by Kevin  on June 19, 2003 at 15:46:23:

Okay, here it is, the final chapter of chronology reviews for recent issues of the Hulk.  It's for Paul's calender, but I post it here for anyone to go over and let me know of any major mistakes, but hopefully, this is good to go.  

When constructing these reviews, I went about this as follows:

1. I list the basic chronology that needs paid attention to.  At the start of the synopsis section, I list the length of time covered in this issue.  At the end of the synopsis, I list a references section.

2. Realizing that just pointing out the chronology might leave you wondering what all this means, I tried to provide as detailed synopsis as possible.  Unfortunately, the writer, (Bruce Jones) loves plot twists and small details, (he'd give the writer's for Twin Peaks and the X-files a run for his money), so this proved more difficult than usual...

3. I tried to add in a bit of 'flavor narrative' to the synopsis, making this as interesting as possible, (though reading the actual comics would be a much more enjoyable read, I'm sure). I do this so you won't just be reading a bunch of plot points.

Anyway, here we go...

Hulk #44
Now You See It
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Stuart Immonen
Abbreviations:  Secret Conspiracy:  S.C.

Appearances:  Bruce Banner, Doc Samson, Mr. Blue, S-1, S-2, New Character: Mr. Lips, (see synopsis below for explanation), New character: S-3

Synopsis:  COVERS A PERIOD OF DAYS, TAKE NOTE OF THE PASSAGE OF TIME.

Pg. 1-6: We open with the operatives S-1 and S-2, who are having a video conference with their boss, the head of the Secret Conspiracy, a mysterious figure who appears on the screen monitor as just a close up of his lips, which are always grim and menacing in appearance.  We have yet to see his entire face as of the latest issue, (he apparently thrives on secrecy) and weve yet to see him in person.  Hes always dealing with his operatives over a video monitor.  Since we know nothing about his real name to date, and S-1 and S-2 refer to him only as sir.  I will refer to him as Mr. Lips, (Im taking a cue from the X-files, wherein the main shadowy figure, whos real name we never learned, just came to be called by the fans Cigarette Smoking Man).  If X-files can do it, so can I.  And if Jeph can come up with the name Cyclopolypse, then I can call this guy Mr. Lips!

Anyway, S1 is showing footage to Mr. Lips of Hulks rampage at the caf seen in issue #38. We see the Hulk punch Doc Samson out through the roof, (just like we saw) and land outside. We then see what S1 refers to as footage from Sandra Verdugos eye camera, (a small implant that we learn the Secret Conspiracy sometimes plants in its operatives). We see Sandra knocking Doc Samson out, (as seen at the end of #38) as then the screen fades to black. S-1 explains that Sandras eye implant malfunctioned at this time. Mr. Lips says malfunctions are unacceptable, but S-1 says that he now has a fool proof plan for capturing the Hulk.  

He explains, (and we see over the monitor) that he had his operatives pick up Samson while he was still unconscious and transport him to a lab, where they implanted a mini camera into Samsons eye. They then drove him back out to the field where he was knocked unconscious, and left him alone.  

We then see footage of Samson waking up and looking around. He follows the footprints of the Hulk out to the shack where the action took place in #39. The shack has already been blown up by this time, and Banners long gone, and the two graves for Verdugo and Slater are nearby. One of the graves has been disturbed, like someone crawled out of it. Through Samsons eye cam, S-1 and S-2 are watching it all. S-2 asks which grave that is; S-1 says it must be Sandra Verdugos, since Slater never underwent the reintegration process, (aka the Zombie process, which allows the S.C.s special operatives to survive being shot, stabbed, blown up). Samson heads off back to his lab which he was at in #37, to try another method of hooking back up with Banner. By the way, its important to note that S-1 and S-2 can only see what Samson sees, not hear anything said

Pg. 7: We cut to where Banner is. Hes alone in a rocky, mountain terrain, thats desert like in appearance. It actually appears more like Nevada in appearance, but we learn shortly hes still in Colorado, but it must be western Colorado near the Nevada side, cause it looks too desert like to me: Colorado is mountain filled, but its mountains are covered in trees. I dont see any trees outdoors here.

Banner gets a strange message from Mr. Blue, who cryptically warns Banner in an email to beware of false prophets.

Pg. 8-9: Samson arrives back at the abandoned lab he was using in #37. The kid he helped back in that issue is now using the abandoned lab as a fort for him and his friends. Samson asks to use the lab for a while, playing along with them to get their permission. He starts working on some old lab computer equipment, fixing it up. By this time, it must be AFTER the 1 day events of issues #40-43.  

Pg. 10: After fixing a computer, he sets it up so that he can send a message to Banner on his laptop, (Banners laptop is supposed to be a special encrypted model that is unable to be tapped into, and that only Sandras stolen FBI model (supplied to her by the Secret Conspiracy, so she could track Banner) but Samsons found a way to send a direct message). He sends a message to Banner that says they need to meet.  

Pg. 11-12: Out in the desert, Banner looks at the message startled. He sends a message back, asking how he can be sure its really Samson? Samson types back Betty has a mole on her left thigh. Banner agrees to meet with him. S-1 and S-2 are watching the whole thing over Samsons eye cam. S-2 asks who Betty is. S-1 says its a mutual friend of both Samson and Banners. Samson quickly pulls out some maps of Colorado, and soon picks out an old abandoned ghost town, (one of several littered through Colorado during the Gold Rush) named Motherload. S-1 quickly informs his soldiers to head towards Motherload, but to await his orders to attack.

Samson sends directions to Banner and proceeds to destroy the lab equipment he concocted to email Banner, not wanting it to fall into the S.C.s hands.  

Pg. 13: Samson goes to sleep. Or so it seems. S-2 asks why their Samson monitor went pitch black, and S-1 calmly explains that even Samson needs to sleep for a bit.

Pg. 14-23: Later, S-1s military operatives get into place outside of Motherload. Theyre told to keep their heads down, so as not to be spotted. On S-1s screen, we see Samson walking past the sign reading Welcome to Motherload. He sits down in the General Store on Main street.

Soon, we the audience see Banner walking into the town, and heading straight on into the General Store. Samson waves to Banner and asks him to come on in and pull up a chair, and have a beer. Banner says, Its a trap, isnt it?  To which Samson replies, Of course!

Upon S-1 seeing Banner enter through Samsons eye cam, S-1 orders his soldiers to proceed. They get up and rush into town, flinging open the General Stores main doors-only to see a TV set up with a video monitor, and on it we see Banner and Samson waving to them and smiling. One of the soldiers notices a bomb in the corner, and they run out just as the General Store goes up in a huge explosion.

S-1 is stunned. Where did his plan go wrong? Mr. Lips appears on the monitor to explain to him. He explains he had his men trace down a copy of Samsons old military records this morning, and discovered that Samson apparently has an astigmatism in one eye. The same eye that S-1 had his men plant the eye camera in. Mr. Lips says something like, Wouldnt you be suspicious if you awoke won day to find you had 20/20 vision in an eye you always needed glasses for?

Mr. Lips concludes that while Samson was asleep he just kept his eye covered, and went to the real Motherload and set up the bomb and monitor. He then went to a different town a few miles away, where he placed a sign in front of the town which read, Motherload. So when Samson walked by the sign earlier to let those watching through his eye know that he was entering Motherload, in actuality he was entering another town somewhere in Southwest Colorado. He had given Banner directions to his town, while the S.C. used their maps to go to the real Motherload.

Mr. Lips says hes disappointed with how S-1 has handled Operation: Banner and declares that S-2 is now in charge of the operation. Suddenly, before S-1 can respond, the chair S-1 is sitting in is flooded with electricity, frying S-1 in the spot. After S-1 crumples in a heap in the chair, the chair lowers through the floor, and in its place rises up another chair, sitting in it is a woman, (who, like the others, her face we cant really make out) and Mr. Lips declares that this person is S-3, who will now be helping S-2, whos now in charge of capturing Banner.

Meanwhile, at the General Store, Banner and Samson are laughing it up.  Samson is now wearing an eye patch over the eye hes concluded the camera is in. Samson says he needed to discuss with Banner what plans Banner might have next, and to offer some advice. Banner says, Im all ears. The End.

References: Samsons directions to Banner for how to get to Motherload read located in southwestern Colorado about two clicks from you. Meet me at the Main Street General Store at fourteen hundred hours. Fourteen hundred hours is 2 oclock. I suspect their meeting happened the next day after Samson sent the email, since Samson had to take time to get out there, (no specifics on how far away the old lab is from Colorado by the waymaybe its in Colorado, but then, when we last saw him, the action was all set in Kansas) and he pretended to take a few hours of sleep.

This issues main content happens probably a few days after the 1 day events of #40-43, as Banners still in Colorado. Perhaps Miser Colorado was in Eastern Colorado, and now hes in western Colorado

Hulk #45
Remember Me Never
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Stuart Immonen

Appearances: Bruce Banner, Mr. Blue, Sandra Verdugo, Agent Pratt, New character: Laurie Masters

Synopsis: PAY ATTENTION TO PASSAGE OF TIME SEQUENCES IN THIS ISSUE, AS ROUGHLY A MONTH PASSES FROM BEGINNING TO END.

Pg. 1: As this issue opens, we see a couple of hikers wandering through the woods of Kansas, who come upon the shack where Banner had the confrontation with Verdugo and Slater in #39. The hikers find in the burnt out rubble of the shack a laptop computer, (its the fancy model that Verdugo and Slater were using to track Banner, apparently its pretty well indestructible). Suddenly, a person approaches them off panel, saying Excuse me, but I need that. As they turn to the person they shriek in horror. Ill go ahead and reveal this is Sandra Verdugo, who survived the blowing up of the shack.  After Banner buried her, she dug her way out of her grave, and looks like a burnt up corpse at first. These scenes featuring Sandra must be a flashback, (to the period shortly after she dug her way out. These scenes reveal how she got around to finding Banner), cause the main story happens after the events of last issue. 

Pg. 2-3: Cut to a rainy night in the small town of Clarksville, Colorado, (we learn the name of the town later on). Banners huddling up in an alley trying to avoid the brunt of the storm. Whatever Samsons advice to him was at the end of last issue, we are not privy to know yet, except it was probably typical stuff like stay low and just a heads up on whatever info Samsons found out about the Secret Conspiracy. Seeing the storms not going to let up, Banner decides he best continue on his way, and so he steps out of the alley and begins crossing the street, when a police car rounds the corner and approaches him. Not wanting to be seen by cops, he runs back into the alley, where he turns around in time to see the bright headlights of an incoming car speeding towards him down the alley.  

Pg. 4-7: Banner wakes up with a gasp, to find hes in a strange bedroom, and theres a woman asleep in bed next to him! She wakes up upon hearing him rustle. They introduce each other, her name is Laurie, and he introduces himself as Bruce Smith, (his usual alias). Hes weak and in pain, and she asks if he remembers her. She explains, (and we see in a flashback on pg. 5, panels 4-6) that she hit Banner with her car in that alley by accident, giving him a severe concussion. She would have dropped him off at the hospital, but shes in trouble with the law around here, so she put him in the car and took him to her apartment. She dragged a half unconscious Banner upstairs to her apartment, the landlady sees her and mistakes Banner for a drunk, and warns her, I told you Mrs. Masters: no men! Especially drunk ones! Laurie just replies that this man is her brother, visiting from St. Jo.  

She says that Banners been unconscious in her bed for days. Banner thanks her for taking him in, but he still feels dizzy and sick. She says he got what appears to be a severe concussion, and he should just lay back and rest, till hes better.

Let me take one moment to say that usually when Banners injured, he changes into the Hulk. So why didnt he here? The only explanation I can conjure is the direct trauma to the head, (and this is simply my theory): Its been (on occasion) displayed that if you can get a direct shot (or blow) to Banners head, youll kill him instantly, (or knock him out) before the adrenaline can transform him into the Hulk. Only thing I can figure, was that the trauma to Banners head was severe enough to knock him out and leave him with a concussion, (and leading him into brief periods of coma, as well see), thus preventing the adrenaline rush needed to trigger the Hulk. Or something

Pg. 8: Flashback- Back in Kansas, we see Sandra (off panel) approach an old man whose old jalopy of a car has a flat tire. He sees her, and nearly has a heart attack, thinking shes the angel of death. He begs her not to take his life. She takes his car, not his life, saying hes got a good 10 years left of life if hell cut out the cigs and the alcohol.

Pg. 9-10: Banner wakes up the following day after pg. 7, to find Laurie roaming through his duffel bag. She says she got a call last night that her moms sick in Kansas City, so shes borrowing some money off of him. She says that shell be back in a few days, but shes going to KC to check on her mom. She tells Banner he can rest here till hes better, and that the RENTS NOT DUE FOR A WEEK, so the old landlady shouldnt bother him. Banner says he should be fine in a couple more days. He falls back asleep, still feeling terrible.

Pg. 11: Flashback- Sandra pulls up along side a little boy whos hanging lazily from a tire swing which hangs from a tree in the little boys front yard. She talks to the boy, who says hes blind because of cancer. She says she knows, and from the way shes talking, the boy asks if shes an angel. She says shell heal him.

Pg. 13: Banner wakes up again, to see a lady asleep in bed next to him. He thinks Laurie must have returned while he was unconscious, so he pats her on the shoulder, and she rolls over to reveal its a badly decomposed corpse!

Pg. 14: Banner wakes up with a gasp, and believes he must have dreamed of the corpse. Banners laptop on the table near the bed has a message from Mr. Blue on it which reads, Mr. Green, why havent you responded? But there is suddenly a knocking at the door, and the voice on the other side says its the police. Banner is too weak to flee, and hopes he can just convince the cops to leave, so he drags himself out of bed and lets them in. Two cops enter, followed by the old landlady, who says that the rent is TWO WEEKS OVERDUE. The cops ask what happened to the lady who owns the apartment. Suddenly, one of the cops notices something leaking out of the closet. They open the door, to reveal the decomposed corpse on the other side! The landlady shrieks in horror, and the police escort her out of the room. One of the cops picks up a wallet on the nightstand, and asks Banner if his name is Mr. Copeland. Banner says that doesnt belong to him. The cops dont believe him: they open the wallet to show the drivers liscense to him: Its a picture of Banner, with the name on it reading George Copeland and lists his address as Topeka, Kansas!

Pg. 19-22: CUT TO WHAT IS EITHER THE NEXT MORNING, OR COULD BE A FEW DAYS LATER, (depending on whether Banner lapsed back into a coma again for a few days). Banner awakens in a hospital bed, the nurse coming in to give him breakfast, followed by the local Sheriff. The Sheriff starts to interrogate Mr. Copeland. Banner says thats not his name. The Sheriff says they did bloodwork on the corpse, and a test on Banners own blood, and showed theyre nearly identical. The Sheriff asks whyd you do it Copeland? Whyd you kill your own sister? The Sheriff says that the Sheriff of Topeka is on his way down here to extradite Banner back to Kansas.

Banner is major confused, and still sick, and doesnt know how to answer, but swears his names not Copeland. So this Sheriff asks what his real name supposedly is. Banner refuses to answer, but someone at the door to the room suddenly says His name is Banner and the Sheriff turns around just in time to take a bullet to the head.

Banner gasps in shock, for the person firing (and whos just killed the Sheriff and the nurse with a silencer gun) is none other than Agent Pratt, alive and well! He was last seen blown to greenish goo at end of #43.

References: The sign outside the hospital on page 19 says Clarksville City Hospital.

As mentioned above, its raining in the small town at the start of this issue.

The Sheriff says that the landlady claims she saw Laurie dragging Bruce up to his room A little over a month ago. This works, going by Laurie, (upon Bruce first awaking) saying hes been unconscious for days, and the next day her saying rents not due for a week, followed by the Landlady barging in with the police, saying that rents two weeks overdue, and then its possible Banners been unconscious in the hospital for a few days, (it would take at least 24 hours Id speculate for bloodwork on the corpse to come back). And in the meantime, the Sheriffs contacting the law out in Topeka, Kansas.

Also, by the time of the scene in the hospital, Banner has hair on his head! Its grown back to a pretty decent level. It looks shoddy, like a military haircut, but its grown back out. 

Hulk #46
Multiple Organism
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Stuart Immonen

Appearances: Bruce Banner, Agent Pratt, Sandra Verdugo

Synopsis: PICKS UP EXACTLY WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE. THIS ISSUE COVERS ONLY A FEW HOURS OF THE SAME DAY.

Banner asks how Pratts alive. Pratt likes making Banner puzzled, and refuses to answer. On the T.V.in Banners hospital room, the news is suddenly showing footage of the Hulks Chicago rampage, (IS THERE NOTHING ELSE ON THE NEWS!?!?!) Banner asks how they made it look like Ricky Myers died in that footage. Pratt smugly says that it was easy for the S.C. to pull that off, and that a kid with a computer could do it. He laughs that thats why video tapes are not admissible in court anymore.

Pratt is holding the silencer in one hand, and in the other hand is another version of the Hulk Gun (one of which was used to drop the Hulk unconscious in #42). Upon Pratt seeing that Banners in no condition to turn into the Hulk, he puts away the Hulk Gun. Pratt tells Banner to get out of bed, and that they have places to go. Banner mockingly drinks a glass of water that was next to his bed, still weak. Pratt smacks him across the head with the butt of his gun, knocking Banner out momentarily.

In this brief moment of unconsciousness, Banner dreams that hes back in bed at Lauries apartment. He hears a knock at the door and gets up to answer it, expecting to see Laurie alive and well on the other side: but he sees Lauries corpse standing there instead!

Banner wakes up feeling a splash of water on his face. Hes laying on the ground of the hospital floor next to the bed, which he just fell out. Pratt dumped the pitcher of water which the nurse brought in onto Banners face.  He helps him up and forces the sick Banner to get dressed. Together, they march out of the hospital, Pratt walking close behind with the gun to Banners back, where no one can see it. The section Banner was being held in was apparently closed off, cause no ones triggered an alarm, (and Pratt killed everyone around Banners room). Pratt walks Banner out the front door of the hospital, just as an ambulance is bringing a person inside who has slit wrists. Pratt and Banner overhear the doctors talking as they bring this guy in: the man is apparently the local coroner, whos tried to commit suicide. But a nurse says shes known the coroner for years, and he never seemed the least depressed. Another says something like, You try working around all those corpses, and see how long it takes you to crack.

Pratt is suddenly suspicious, so after getting Banner in the car, Pratt drives off down to the morgue. Banner is still feeling feverish in the passenger seat. He momentarily passes out, and in his fever, he dreams he wakes back up in bed, to see the corpse next to him. The corpse of Laurie says Not now, Bruce, I need my beauty sleep. Banner wakes up with a gasp in the passenger seat next to Pratt. Pratt says, And THATS why the Secret Organization needs the Hulks blood. Banner? Hey, you listening to me?  Banners like, repeat what you just said! But Pratt says hes just pulling Banners chain.

They arrive at the morgue, where inside, Pratt shoots the security guard on attendance, along with someone who must be the assistant coronor. Banner curses Pratt for his mindless slaughter, but Pratt says hes here on business, and marches on into the actual morgue section. He forces Banner to open up Lauries chamber, and Banners wondering why theyre even there, and says hes already seen the body. But Pratt demands he open up the display table where the body should be, and Banner does, but theres no body there now! Pratt says its just as he figured.  

Suddenly, the door to the morgue bursts open, and several policemen burst in. Apparently, it didnt take too long for other cops to find the carnage at the hospital, and to track them to here. Banners like dont shoot! But Pratt just smiles and points his gun at them, and they shoot, sending Pratt to the floor dead. The cops tell Mr. Copeland to put his hands in the air, but suddenly Pratts up off the ground firing away, killing all the cops! They fire back, but Pratt takes it in stride, till the last cop, (just as hes being shot by Pratt) fires a shotgun into Pratts chest, and Pratt collapses to the ground again dead.

Just then, Banner, (who had been creeping away from the firefight to the nearest window) is suddenly grabbed by a hand and jerked through the window.  On the ground outside the morgue, he looks up, and is startled to see Sandra Verdugo standing there alive and well! He says, Youre alive?!? and she says, Better than that: I got wheels. Shall we go?

References: Pratt, (when reading over the medical and police notes hes grabbed off of the dead Sheriff) notes that it was a little less than 3 weeks from when Banner was taken up to Lauries room to when the police had burst in on Banner to find the corpse in the closet. This cant be right going by the It was a little over 1 month line given by the Sheriff last issue to describe how long Banner was shacked up in that Apartment. I lean towards the timeline presented in issue #45 as opposed to this issue, but Ill let you go over it all, Paul, and decide what length of time serves best.

Sandra is wearing a miniskirt when we see her on the last page, but hey, shes a ghoul! She probably doesnt feel whether its hot or cold outside

Hulk #47
Transfer of Power
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Stuart Immonen

Appearances: Bruce Banner, Agent Pratt, Sandra Verdugo, Laurie Masters, Mr. Blue, (on a recorded video, so is not a present day appearance).

Synopsis: CONTINUES FROM WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE, SAME DAY. ENTIRE ISSUE HAPPENS OVER A FEW HOURS, ENDING AFTER DARK.  

First, though, pgs.1-4 are the start of a subplot, which well see explored over the following issues. In some small town in the American West, a Secret Conspiracy operative is in a bar, ordering a drink, the waitress flirting with him. He has an ear piece, into which comes a sudden message, The Tape is ready. He gets up and goes into a nearby Sex Shop down the street, and into the back where they play naughty videos. The voice in his earpiece says, You will require the specialized viewing lens and so he puts on some shades, and the sex video which has just started up on the screen, (upon him putting on the shades), turns into a picture of a woman, sitting in a dark room, (we cant make out her face) undergoing a talk with someone off camera. Shes agreeing to undergo a procedure of some sort, (Ill go ahead and reveal right now, this is Mr. Blue). Apparently this tape is of vital importance to the S.C.

Back to the main story:

Sandra is trying to get Banner up off the ground and into her car, but Banners like, Hold on a minute!  Why are you and Pratt still alive! Doesnt anyone stay dead? When do I get the instructions on how this game is played!?!? But Sandra retorts, When do I get my son back? Remember Ricky? Did you find him? Banner sheepily turns away, and shes like, Thats what I thought. So dont act all high and mighty. But she suddenly gets an idea.  

She leaps back inside the morgue window, telling Banner to follow her. She walks over to Pratts corpse and searches the jacket pockets, and tells Banner to search his pant pockets. She says shes looking for that Hulk Gun he likes to wave around. Banner reaches in and starts searching, just as Pratts hand jerks Banners hand off his pants. He says with a devilish grin, Why Dr. Banner, I hardly know you! Sandra picks up a gun and shoots him in the head, and he dies again. She concludes the Hulk Guns not on him, (he must have left it in his car) and she urges her and Banner to get out of there. They get into her car, (the one she stole from the old man in #45) and theyre about to drive off, when Pratt reaches in through the Passenger window trying to grab Banner. Sandra shoots him again, and they drive off.  

As they drive, she explains that she and Pratt have undergone the Reintegration procedure, so thats why they keep coming back from the dead. Banner asks how she located him, and she pulls out her laptop computer, and says his own laptop is in the backseat. She says after digging herself out of that grave Banner buried her in, she survived by feeding off of woodland animals at first. A couple of hikers found her laptop, which she took from them, (as seen in #45) and then she walked, till she came to a road where she found the old man changing his flat tire. He fainted from the site of her, and so she took some of his blood, (thru an IV) and then took his car. She says that for massive trauma, (like being blown up) it takes a transfusion of blood into her system to get the reintegration process started, (it usually kicks in without blood transfusions, thus Pratts getting right back up after being shot). She used the blood of animals at first to get her moving and used the old mans blood thru an IV (shes not a vampire after all) to start the reintegration truly going, (still probably looked like a ghoul), so upon seeing a blind boy upon the side of the road, (as seen in #45) she pulled over and took his blood, along with his cancer, curing him. She says this process shes undergone has left her with the ability to see when people are close to death, (like the boy, and the old man), and she says Banner was close to death as well, till she came along.

Before she can get any further in explanation, theres a BANG sound, and Banners unconscious again. He wakes up in Lauries bed again, and Lauries standing next to the bed looking at him, and hes like, Oh God, not this nightmare again but he turns around to see Sandra Verdugo standing nearby, saying its no dream. She says one of the tires had a blow out, and Banner hit his head on the dashboard, knocking him out. She pulled back into Lauries place, to find Laurie home now, (she claims she got sidetracked in Kansas City, and couldnt make it back). Sandra says Laurie has agreed to let her and Banner take her car, (whatever trouble Lauries in, she sympathizes with Banners own plight, and its pretty obvious she has developed a crush on Banner). Laurie laments that she and Banner never got a chance to really develop a relationship, but Sandra and Banner must be moving on

Later, as Sandra and Banner are driving along, as far away from Clarksville, Colorado as possible, Banner asks for what really happened these past few weeks. Sandra reveals the following: She arrived in Clarksville the same night Banner did, in the middle of that thunderstorm. She saw Banner start to cross the street, but duck back into the alley upon seeing the approaching police car. She saw Banner get hit by Lauries own car. She kept an eye on where Banner was being kept the next few days, and upon Laurie leaving for Kansas City, she snuck up to the room to check on Banner, to find him slipping into a coma from the head trauma. Knowing her own reintegrated body had a healing factor, she started giving Banner a transfusion. She gave Banner more of her blood each day, continually trying to get Banner to come out of the coma. Eventually, as more blood left her, her own bodies superhealing process broke down, till she resembled the decomposed self she should be from all the times shes died. While she was healing Banner, she created the fake drivers liscense IDs for Banner, (and one for herself) using the names off of some wallets she stole back in Kansas, (the wallets apparently belonged to a Mr. And Mrs. Copeland). When she heard the police coming, she dragged herself into the closet, never imagining theyd open it to find her in there and charge Banner with Murder. She awoke next in the morgue, where the Coroner was about to start putting embalming fluid in her.  He fainted from the sight of her sitting up, and so she used an IV and took some of the coroners blood, making it look like he tried to commit suicide.  So with his blood, the process kicked in, and she started looking alive again, and she proceeded to rescue Banner.

Banner, after hearing all this, thanks her repeatedly, knowing he owes his life to her, and she only asks that he help her get her son back from the S.C. Banner wonders why he hasnt been changing into the Hulk, and suddenly concludes that Sandras blood transfusion has cured him. Sandra says not to get his hopes up: as Banners normal blood cells replenish and wipe out Sandras healing blood, he can probably expect their green friend to return.

Verdugo notices that a car has been following them the last few miles. That car, (a black SUV) suddenly speeds up and zips by them, and Sandra notices a little boy in the backseat that looks a lot like Ricky, her son. She suddenly is frantic, and speeds up, playing bumper cars with the Black SUV, screaming Give me my son back! The two vehicles wheels lock, and both cars go flying over an embankment and down into a valley below off to the side of the road.

Sandra rushes from her car over to the other crashed car, and she thinks Ricky is crushed underneath the wreckage. Banner walks over and PICKS UP THE CAR and tosses it aside like its nothing. Now Sandra sees that Ricky is nothing more than a Crash Test Dummy dressed up like Ricky, and the car was driven by remote control.  

Banner urges her to get back in the car, and they need to get the hell out of there, but Sandra comments on how he picked up the car just now: she says that Banners in control of the Hulks strength now. Banner says he doesnt know whos in control of who, and hes not sure what just happened. Either Sandras transfusion is having a weird effect, or Banners meditation control over the Hulk is taking on new dimensions, (or a combination of both).

And just above at the top of the road, a group of Black SUVs pulls up looking down the embankment to where Sandra and Bruce are

References: Sandra says she got there from Shelbyville, Kansas. There are green trees outdoors in the driving along scenes, but Ill make note that the artist makes them look like green splotchstheyre indistinct.

Hulk #48
From Here to Infinity
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Stuart Immonen

Appearances: Bruce Banner, Sandra Verdugo, Agent Pratt, Mr. Blue, (on the video tape on the subplot pages).

Synopsis: CONTINUES FROM WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE, SAME DAY, AND HAPPENS OVER THE TIMESPAN OF PROBABLY LESS THAN AN HOUR. THIS IS THE ACTION ISSUE.

Pg. 1-3: But first the subplot pages again. Back in that same small town in nowhere, USA, the S.C. agent finishes watching the video. We see the woman who last issue volunteered for some sort of surgery is now on a medical table. A surgical instrument drops down from the ceiling, and the agent reels back in shock, apparently shes getting her face operated on: a radical plastic surgery technique. He makes a copy of the film onto a golden CD, and destroys the original film, and leaves the Sex Shop where he was watching the film.  

Back to the main plot, Banner and Sandra are contemplating driving off or facing the Black SUVs parked above. Their decision is made for them. A voice over a speaker calls out, speaking lines from a Lord Byron poem. Its Pratt. And hes got Ricky next to him. The kid is all tied up, even his mouth, and Pratts telling Banner that he wants to settle the score between him and Banner man to man. He says if he can take out him, hell let Ricky go.  Banners hesitant at first, sensing a trap, that somethings not right, but Sandra slaps him, and starts to run up to Ricky, but Banner picks her up and tosses her back onto the car, the slap finally motivating him. He starts to walk up the embankment, and Pratt starts to walk down, both men taking off their shirts.  

Pratt starts laying in punch after punch upon Banner, and Banners like, this wont work, Pratt and Pratt just laughs, saying he must be talking about the old Pratt, but now Banners facing the NEW Pratt, before he suddenly changes into a Hulk like creature himself, (actually looks like a Black, overweight Supersized Kingpin). He explains that after he was stabbed by that vial of Hulk blood that caused him to explode back in #43, that it took a long time for him to reintegrate, but when he finally did, he says he felt better than he had in a long time, and that when he got mad, he found himself able to transform into this monstrous form.  

Sandra leaps to Banners aid, jumping on Pratt, but he swats her aside like a fly. Pratt says he knows that this transformation from Banner that hes inherited wont last forever, and that everytime he transforms, the strength slowly seeps away. Just like Banners blood is replacing the blood from the transfusion with Sandra, Pratts own blood is replacing the Hulks blood, and so he cant keep these wonderful powers forever. Pratt pulls out the Hulk Gun which he figures its about time to use on Banner, (who he assumes must be about ready to turn into the Hulk), but Banner punches Super Pratt, knocking the big oaf to the ground. Pratts surprised, and concludes that Banners suddenly able to pull out the strength of the Hulk when needed, (and if Banner doesnt transform fully into the Hulk, then Pratt cant get Hulks blood). Pratt decides to kick it up a notch and just pummels Banner till hes unconscious.  

But suddenly, Sandra is standing behind Pratt, waving the Hulk Gun at him, (Pratt dropped it on the ground when Banner sucker punched him). She says for him to lay off of Banner. Pratt, suddenly forced to compromise, says hell let Ricky go if she just lays down the gun. Pratt warns her that she cant stay on the run forever. He says the reintegration process the S.C. put into her and himself wasnt meant to last, so shell eventually stay decomposed and die. Only the S.C. can make her human again. And furthermore, if she did make it away from here with Ricky, she and her son will be hunted by the S.C. for the rest of her life. All she has to do is let Pratt take Banner away, and she can have her son back. She stands there silently, obviously thinking about it.

References: It starts raining this night, at the onset of the fight between Pratt and Bruce.

Hulk #49
Pratt Fall
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Stuart Immonen

Appearances: Bruce Banner, Sandra Verdugo, Agent Pratt, S2 and S3

Synopsis: CONTINUES FROM WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE, SAME DAY, AND HAPPENS OVER A FEW HOURS. THIS IS ANOTHER ACTION ISSUE.

Pg. 1-2: Back to the subplot. The man who was watching the video last issue walks back into the bar he was at earlier, (in #47) and the waitress starts flirting with him again. Now that hes made a copy of the mysterious film, he figures his mission is complete, and takes her up on her offer for a  quick romantic interlude. They head off to her room in an apartment nearby.

Back to the normal plot: Sandra agrees to Pratts terms, and they start to walk up to the Black SUVs. Banner is left unconscious on the ground below. Pratt deHulks himself, shrinking back down into his normal body. Sandra wants assurances that if she hands over this Hulk Gun, shell get her son back and they can be on her way. Pratt pulls out a cell phone and calls back to Homebase, asking to be put through to S-1, (but S-1 is dead, so hes put through to S-2. S-3 watches on while they talk). Pratt explains the situation to the bosses, and gives the phone to Sandra. S-2 explains that its the Hulks blood they want, and that they wont hold any grudges, and shell be free to go. She agrees and hangs up. She hands the Hulk Gun over as Pratt unties the ropes covering Ricky, and takes off an electronic shock device he had attached to the boy, (he was shocking the kid lightly to goad Bruce and Sandra into taking up his offer to fight).  

Ricky runs over and hugs his mother, but Pratt suddenly grabs little Ricky back, and says that she can have him back upon one final condition: that she strips down naked for his pleasure. She refuses at first, saying the people at Homebase never agreed to that. Pratt says that these are his own terms, and he cleared it with Homebase on his own yesterday. She says the men in the other Black SUVs surely wont go along with this, but Pratt has her take a look at the men in the other vehicles: theyre all dead. He says they didnt want to go along with his plan for a one on one fight with Banner, so he killed them all, (cyanide through the airvents). Sandra comments hes insane, and hes like, well, duh. So she starts to take off her clothes, telling Ricky to close his eyes, but Pratt says the boy has to keep them open. She takes off her shirt, but then stops, saying she just wont do it, that she has to draw the line somewhere. So Pratt snaps little Rickys neck.

The boy falls to the ground and Sandra just stands there in shock. Pratt pulls out the Hulk gun and points it at her head, (its meant to stop the Hulk, so surely itll stop a normal human, let alone a zombie like Verdugo).  Hes about to fire when he hears someone talking behind him. Its the Hulk, who says, I suppose this is the part where Im supposed to say: HULK SMASH! 

Pratt whips around the Hulk gun and points it at the Hulk. Pratt notes that Banners suddenly got control of the Beast, but says that wont be enough. He fires the Hulk gun, only to hear a click. He turns to Sandra, who has this Gotcha! look on her face, and reveals she emptied the gun of its bullets down below after Pratt first dropped the Gun. Pratt slaps her aside and Hulks up again, becoming Super Pratt, and punches the Hulk across the face. Hulks like, Was that supposed to hurt? And immediately rips into Pratt, who for the first time is scared witless, Banner tosses him around, and jumps on top of him, letting the anger side of him take control, and punches Pratt over and over and over.

Cut to later on, around dawn the next morning, as we see Banner sitting down disoriented next to the body of Ricky Myers. Sandra walks up, and Bruce asks if shes done burying Pratt, and she replies, yes, she buried all 100 parts of him. Apparently Bruce let the fury of the Hulk take over for a while, just long enough to destroy Pratt so completely, that hell never reintegrate again.   

Banner asks if shes ready for one last surprise, and she says, you mean this surprise? and pops Rickys head off like a rag doll, revealing circuitry within. This Ricky was nothing more than a robot. Banner had found this out while looking over the body, but he asks, How did you know? To which she replies she knew the instant Ricky ran up and hugged her. Which speaks volumes: perhaps she doesnt have a good relationship with her son, or she has no relationship.  

Banner asks what theyre supposed to do now, and she says that theyll split up for now, both of them continuing the search for Ricky.  

Cut momentarily back to the subplot on pgs. 21-21. The S.C. agent in the other small town goes up to the waitress room and hops into bed. She goes into the bathroom and comes back out wearing her panties, and turns out the light, only for us to hear a pok. She turns the light back on to reveal shes killed the man with a silencer pistol, and is now holding the Golden Disk that the agent was carrying. She smiles in satisfaction.  

References: The trees are green, and the rain doesnt look cold, nobodys breathing that winter fog so it appears to be warm. Well, its possible that Banner slept the worst part of the winter away while in that coma

Hulk #50
Dark Minds, Dark Hearts pt. 1 of 5
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Mike Deadato Jr.

Appearances: Bruce Banner, S-2, S-3, Mr. Lips, The Abomination, Nadia

Synopsis: HAPPENS ALL IN ONE DAY.

We start out at Area 51, (heres its not called that, its just your typical secret army base, but its the same base as from the Ryker storyline from Hulk #13-19, last seen in Hulk #24-25), in New Mexico. A mysterious car pulls up, and at the guards entrance out front, the person behind the wheel shows an I.D. thats apparently fair enough to get them inside. As they pull inside, a special smoke pours out the backside of the exhaust pipe, causing the guard to keel over. Other army base employees outside fall over as well as the car drives by, and the car circles round and round the army base, apparently flooding the outside with fumes. Then they get out and begin flooding the inside as well, till everyone is dead. The two individuals of the car walk inside, gas masks covering their faces. They walk further and further into the army base, till they reach an inner chamber. Inside the chamber, they take off their masks. We learn these two individuals are S-2 and S-3. Apparently Mr. Lips is tired of their men messing things up, and has placed them directly in charge of this new mission.

They open up a reinforced door and step inside, stepping out onto a balcony, which overlooks below the slumbering figure of The Abomination. This is the prison chamber where we last saw Emil Blonsky, back in #25, after his capture by the Hulk and General Ross. The monitor above Blonsky is still playing the same endless loop of footage, a CIA tape of Emil kissing his wife goodbye back in Russia, before he headed off to America to uncover the secrets of the Gamma Bomb for the KGB. If you recall, Gen. Ross set this up, to torture Emil for the role he played in the death of his daughter Betty Ross.

S-2 pulls out a gun and aims it at the Abomination, but cant seem to get a good bead on the creatures neck. Hes suffering from some jitters: he apparently doesnt like working in the field. S-3, (the woman) grabs the gun from him, takes aim, and fires. A few seconds later, the Abomination wakes up. S-3 begins talking to Emil, asking if he can hear her. He doesnt respond, but his eyes stare coldly up at her. She says they have come to release him, on the condition hell perform a mission for them.

Meanwhile, we cut to Banner, whos walking through the Southwestern desert of New Mexico, (not too many miles away). Hes apparently moved south from Colorado on his own to the New Mexico region. As he crosses over the next hill, he sees in the valley below a road, and next to the road a gas station and diner.  Its a little pitstop area in the middle of nowhere.

Banner walks on in to one of the stores of this little waystation. They have a clothing section, and Banner is looking at the pants. A woman walks up, and asks if she can help him with anything. Banner asks if she has any extra pants in the back for an Extra, Extra large person. She says she thinks she has one more pair, but asks if he plans on gaining weight? He says with a grin its possible. He asks if the pants come in the color purple, (a joking reference to the fact that the Hulk always used to run around in the 70s comics with purple pants on, which I still say was just the artists of the times way of painting a striking color to go against the green of Hulks skin). She doesnt get his joke. Changing subjects, he says hes starving, and hell pick the pants up after he goes across the street to the diner to have a bite to eat. He asks her if the place it open, and she says to go right on in, and the waitress will serve him shortly.

He goes in and sits down and THAT SAME WOMAN walks up with a menu in her hand. They laugh, and she explains that shes the only one here, and that she runs this waystation alone. He starts to place an order, and shes about to start cooking, when she looks out the window and sees a pickup truck full of rednecks pulling up, all of whom look drunk. She says (with a sudden worried tone) that its paydayin other words, the local cowboys got paid, and are coming there to get drunk off their butts

Cut back to S-3, whos still talking to the Abomination, but getting no response. Shes fearful that his time in isolation here may have hurt his mind, or perhaps his vocal chords, and thats why he doesnt talk. S-2 puts in a video, and on the monitor she shows Emil pictures of Banner, followed by footage of him fighting the Hulk in years past. She calmly explains that the organization she works for wants to capture the Hulk. But theyve come to the conclusion that to do that they must first defeat the Hulk utterly. And theyve concluded that only the Abomination has the strength to do that.  

Cut back to Banner at the caf. The rednecks walk in and have a seat, and the biggest of them walks up to the waitress, calling her Nadia, and asks for a beer. He then tells his gang to watch this and asks for a little sugar kiss from her, and she replies dont bother me today, Hank.

Banner taps him on the shoulder, and says he should leave her alone. He turns around and punches Banner. It doesnt even phase Banner, who stares at the hick with a strange gleam in his eyes. He grabs Hanks hand and squeezes really hard, and the Hanks men get up and they all start attacking Banner, who swats them around like flies, (not even transforming into the Hulk, continuing his new found abilities from last issues, hes able for now to just call out the strength of the Hulk when needed). After he tosses one out the window and onto their truck, the hicks flee out the door, and take off in their truck. Nadia is stunned by all this, and as he turns back to her she momentarily stumbles backwards into having a seat at the booth. Banner sits down calmly across from her at the booth, and picks up the cup of coffee that she had poured for him. He says, Think Ill switch to decaf.

Cut back to S-3 talking to the Abomination. She explains when they fired that gun at him, they implanted a small explosive device in his neck. If Emil doesnt agree to help them, they can set off the device and explode Emils head. All they want is his agreeing to take out Banner for them, and theyll remove the explosive dart, and allow him to go free. She asks what his answer is. To which he makes his first response since waking up: he laughs menacingly and with insane delight. It drives a panic in to S-2 and S-3, (particularly S-2) who flee the chamber.

Cut back to Banner and Nadia. Shes opening up a shed out back behind the restaurant, to reveal a dusty tool shed with a spare mattress on the floor. She says its not much, but he can spend the night there, and he says he really appreciates it, saying anythings better than sleeping out in the desert. She says her own room is above the restaurant on the 2nd floor, if he needs anything

Later that night, Banners asleep when he suddenly feels raindrops splattering on his head. He wakes up to hear a storm outside, and rain is dripping everywhere through the old roof. The door flings open and its Nadia, saying their must have been a storm cloud break overhead, and she says he can come inside out of the rain. They go in and the power goes out from the storm, and she says she has a couple of candles upstairs. She goes up, asking Banner to follow her, and they find the candles in her room. She lights both of them apologizing that she doesnt have anymore, and he says that its okay, and hell go back downstairs and sleep in one of the booths of the restaurant. A lightning bolt hits nearby and she panics for an instant, and then apologizes, saying shes afraid of the dark. They then hit it off conversationally, and sure enough, before you know it, Nadias taken off her nightgown, and Banners following close behind in taking off his clothes and hopping into bed with her.  

Cut back to S-2 and S-3, who have run all the way back out to the car they arrived in. S-2 is muttering that theyve failed, and that the boss will have them killed for this. He contemplates running away. S-3 tells him to shut up, and punches a button on the monitor, and the image of Mr. Lips comes up on the screen. They explain to him the situation, and S-3 warns him that the Abomination could be insane, and simply will not cooperate. Mr. Lips tells them to call down, (hes especially condescending to S-2, whom he sees as cowardly). Mr. Lips gets them to push a button on the console, and it uploads to their monitor some new images, that he wants S-2 and S-3 to go over.  

On screen, we see a picture of Banner in the desert, taken, 2 days ago. Then the image changes to some footage of Banner approaching Nadias diner, as they suspected he would. S-2 says they could grab him now, and S-3 and Mr. Lips rebuke him, saying theyve tried that before, and it hasnt worked. Apparently their photographing him long distance. The footage then cuts to some recent images, which Mr. Lips says were shot of the window to Nadias apartment above the diner. S-2 says, Whoa Mr. Lips tells them to take this footage and show it to Blonsky.

Cut to inside, where they enter into the Abominations chamber. Blonsky is still looking up at them with those menacing eyes. They put a disk into the video monitor and upload it: its the images uploaded to their car by Mr. Lips. S-3 begins talking about how theyve just got these images of Banner entering this diner in the middle of nowhere. She then shows footage of Nadia serving him coffee inside. S-3 condescendingly asks if he remembers her. She says something like, Yes, your darling wife has followed you to America. Perhaps searching for her missing husband? What a courageous womantracking you this far! Shes made it just a few miles away! Such devotion! Such Drive! Such-whats this?

The monitor suddenly changes to an image of Banner and Nadia getting it on in bed. S-3 says, Looks like Nadias drive got a little side-tracked To which the Abomination lets out a bloodcurdling scream of angera lengthy scream that shakes the foundations of the room, sending computer equipment and the monitor which were hanging from the ceiling falling to the ground. His roar even cracks open the wall slightly. But his manacles attached to his wrists hold firmly. As S-3 picks herself up off the ground, she says, Ill take that as a yes? referring to her question of will he help them

References:  As mentioned above, they have video of Banner walking through the desert towards Nadias Diner, which Mr. Lips says was filmed two days ago. S-3 says hes heading Due East as expected.  

What I can figure is that Banner headed south from Colorado on his own, mostly on foot, and is now in the New Mexico region, where hes turned East, (heading towards Nadias Diner, and towards the general location of Area 51, which is close to Roswell I believe)

Also, Banners hair is basically completely back to normal levels by now.  Its still short on top, but its thick enough that he finally looks normal again.

Hulk #51
Dark Minds, Dark Hearts pt. 2 of 5: Killing Season
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Mike Deadato Jr.

Appearances: Bruce Banner, S-2, S-3, Mr. Lips, The Abomination, Nadia Blonsky

Synopsis: CONTINUES WHERE WE LEFT OFF WITH LAST ISSUE. ITS NOW THE FOLLOWING DAY. Also, Ill note that the subplot from #47-49 picks back up here, and interwines with the plot out where Banner is, but as its happening at the same time as Banners plot, (and all this happens on same day) Ill not bother to give page numbers, if you dont mind.

The issue starts out the next morning, with Banner awakening in Nadias bed.  She enters the room carrying breakfast on a tray. Bruce says shes going to spoil him, and she says she wants to, and that its been a long time for her.She offers him breakfast, and follows that by offering him some vitamins.

Meahwhile, S-3 is still talking to the Abomination. Theyve come to an agreement now. She says as a token of good faith in their agreement, they agree to release Emil for just a minute. She pushes the button that releases the Hulksize Shackles that are keeping Emil in place, and he immediately reaches up and grabs S-3, growling in her face. Shes scared, but she calmly says: We cant fulfill our agreement if you bite my head off, Emil He puts her back down and allows himself to be shackled again.

Cut back to Banner, who is now in the shower, only to have Nadia follow him in. She playfully teases him saying he forgot to take his vitamins, and she offers him one, and he takes it. A few minutes later, he falls over in the shower, drugged by the pill Nadia gave him

Cut to S-3, who is talking to Emil again. She says that they are both in agreement then: The S.C. will get the Hulk, and Emil will get his wife back, along with his freedom, and the explosive dart removed from his neck.

Cut to Nadia, who drags the unconscious Banner back to bed, and lays him down underneath the covers. She then pulls out Banners duffel bag, and pulls out the laptop within it. She opens it up and enters a code, and suddenly the lips of Mr. Lips appear on screen. He congradulates her on the success of her mission so far, and only asks that she keep Banner occupied until the time is right. After that, he says, shell be reunited with her husband.

Banner starts to wake up and groans, and she shuts off the laptop and hurryingly stuffs it back in the duffel bag. Banner asks what happened, and she replies he slipped on some soap in the bathtub and knocked himself out. He says he needs some aspirin, and he reaches for the duffel bag, to which she replys NO! afraid hell notic she just got done rummaging through it. She says, Uh, I have some stronger stuff out in the supply shedyou just lay back down and relax.

She runs out to the tool shed, and looks over the shelves for aspirin, or anything, but cant find any, and concludes her supply man hasnt brought any this week. In her mind, she sees an image of Banner and her making love, and she says, Stop it, Nadia. Hes just a means to an end. Dont feel sorry for him. Suddenly, theres a stomping sound outside. The whole shed shakes. She rushes out to see whats happening, only to run straight into the face of the Hulk, who stands towering over her, glaring down at her.

Meanwhile, on the subplot pages, (and panels, which weave throughout the story) we see the following events. At that same small town where the golden disk plot was happening, a little old lady wanders into the sex shop where the Secret Conspiracy Agent made a copy of the video (of the mystery woman getting plastic surgery) onto the golden disk. This old lady looks at all the filth on the magazine racks, and starts raising hell with the store owner, tearing the magazines up and knocking the videos off the shelf. She then wanders into the back where the videos are played, looking to destroy more filth. The owner calls the police. They arrive a few minutes later, just as the old lady is running off some stooges who were watching nasty videos in the back. The owner tells the two officers to get this broad out of here. She asks, What, are you the only law enforcement this towns got? To which they reply: Pretty much, maam. Dont need any more to handle a lovely lady like you. To which the old lady replies, Thought so! And picks up her cane she was walking on, and uses it as a gun, shooting the two cops dead. She then turns to the owner, and kills him too.  

The Old Lady takes off her face and wig and stands up straight, taking off the dress.  Its another S.C. operative. A voice whimpers from the back rooms; apparently not everyone left like the operative wanted. The voice says, Please, God, Ive never even been in here before today. To which the operative replies, Always a first time for everything. And shoots several rounds into the booth, killing the poor guy.

He walks into one of the backrooms where the videos are played, and puts an earpiece in, and talks to someone, (probably Mr. Lips). After looking over the room carefully, he says that the video they wanted must have had a copy made, and its gone now. He says the owner of the sex shop, works for the other side so he had to kill him. He says he should be able to find the disk in question soon.

He walks over to the nearby bar, where the waitress works, (the one who killed the last operative that was here, back in #49). She flirts with him as well, and he says hes a lingerie salesman in town, but that nobody seems interested in buying his products. She says she gets off work in a few minutes, and shed be more than happy to try out the products. Sure enough, a few minutes later, shes leading him up to her room, where she killed the last operative, and she goes in the bathroom, with one of the guys bras which he has in his briefcase. We see her pull a gun out of the toilet. She walks back out, and hes already underneath the covers. The gun is in her back pocket, (shes still wearing her pants, but is now wearing the bra he gave her. Shes about to pull the gun out and kill him when a pok sound effect comes out, and we see a bullet hole exit through the sheets hes under. Hes beaten her to the punch and killed her first with his own silencer gun.

He searches the room and finds the golden disk in question: she was hiding it in her bra. He comments that it was a bra worth dying for.

References: Nadia, (when shes serving breakfast to Bruce) comments that today is Sunday, and so her store is closed.  

Also, this is the first time that its made reference to the Secret Conspiracy group being in conflict with another secret conspiracy group, (as seen by the rival agents: the waitress and the little old lady/lingerie salesman). While I have no idea where Bruce Jones is going with all this, I figured Id make note of it

Hulk #52
Dark Minds, Dark Hearts pt. 3 of 5:  Vicious Circles
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Mike Deadato Jr.

Appearances: Bruce Banner, the Abomination, Nadia Blonsky, S-2, S-3, Mr. Lips.

Synopsis: SAME DAY AS ISSUE 51. PICKS UP WHERE WE LEFT OFF, AND COVERS THE SPAN OF A FEW HOURS, ENDING AFTER NIGHTFALL. Similar to last issue, the subplot continues, and interwines with the main plot, and since theyre happening at the same time, Ill just tell their plots like I did last issue.

We begin where we left off: The Hulk is standing over Nadia, whos scared witless. He picks her up in one hand and sniffs her, as if he remembers her scent. He inhales her scentthen breathes out. The force of his exhale knocks her face and hair back, like its a hurricane, and for a moment, we see in her mind a picture of her being flung backwards in pain. This is a flashback to some dark memory in her mind. Out of fear, she slaps the Hulk across the face. The Hulks eyes grow wide open, and he just looks at her and says, Nadia?

Cut to a bit later, as we now see Banner lying against the ground next to the side of the shack. He says he doesnt remember what happened. She, (not wanting to let him know she saw his Hulk form) says she walked in the shed, and when she walked out, she saw him lying here in the dirt. She helps drag him back inside.

As she sets him back in bed, he says he couldnt help noticing there are some minor scars on her face, (near the ears on one side). He noticed them back in Issue 50, but she didnt want to bring them up for discussion. Here he comes out and asks how she got them. In her mind, for an instant, we see an image of Nadias face striking a mirror, like she was shoved against it. Her face is contorted in pain, as the mirror shatters. Cutting back to reality, she simply says it was another place, and another life, (not wanting to get into it).

Cut to S-2 and S-3, who have settled the agreement with Emil, and leave the army base behind. S-2 notices that S-3 has some light scars on her face. He hasnt really gotten a chance to know her, since shes still somewhat new to the Secret Conspiracy Organization, and so he asks where she got her scars. She replies she got them in the battlefield, and says for him to drop the subject. They get in the car and are ordered by Mr. Lips to return to Homebase for the moment.  

Banner suddenly decides he shouldnt put it off any longer, and decides to share his secret with Nadia. He wants her to know the truth: that he may be putting her life in danger just by being there with her. He pulls out his laptop, and plays a program. He explains that his real name is Bruce Banner, and hes sure everyone knows his alter ego. The program plays, and we see footage again of the Chicago rampage. He calmly explains to her that a secret group framed him, to make it look like the Hulk killed little Ricky Myers. He says hes got to find the boy and rescue him. Nadia seems to take all this in stride, saying she understands, (she is amazed that Banners being so forthright with herhes showing her his trusting, good natured side). She opens up a cabinet and pulls out a box of what she calls Chinese Tea. She says shell fix some right up for Banner.

S-2 and S-3 return to Homebase, and both have the jitters. When Mr. Lips said for them to return, he appeared a little mad. S-2 warned her in the car he gets like that before hes about to terminate someone. S-3 notices a strange lady in her office, and shes like, Oh no you dont! No one puts me Out to Pasture! And pushes this lady to the ground. S-2 stops her saying, S-3, its just the cleaning lady Mr. Lips appears on screen, and smugly says, Whats the matter, S-3? A bit paranoid today?

Later on that night, we see Banner asleep in bed, (she poisoned him with that tea, another knockout concoction) and is on Banners laptop again, talking to Mr. Lips. She suddenly demands to know what the Secret Conspiracy has planned for him before she helps turn him over tomorrow. He refuses to answer, but he assures her, he has nothing but the best intentions for Banner, and swears that no harm will come to him. Nadias not so sure anymore

Meanwhile, in the subplot for this issuethe S.C. agent is sticking the body of the waitress in a corner of the room, and pulling out a laptop computer of his own. He sticks the golden disk in, and plays it. Hes talking to a man thru his earpiece, (probably Mr. Lips, who wants to figure out whats on this video). He starts playing the video, and gets to the part where the mystery woman is lying on the operating table. The surgical instrument descends from the ceiling, and starts buzzing like a chainsaw, and we see the operatives eyes grow big, and he runs off to the toilet, where he throws up.

He comes back out a few minutes later, telling the person on the other end of the earpiece, I dont care how weak stomached you think I am, Ive been in this business 15 years, and Ive never seen anybody get their face peeled off!

He continues playing the video, and the footage cuts to a post operation time period. We see days pass, and little by little, they start removing bandages from this womans face. The operative says, Okay, lets see who weve got here and upon the final bandages being taken off, (we dont get to see it by the way) he screams, Holy $%&*

Cut to later, as hes talking mouthy to the person on the other end of the earpiece. Apparently, this operative suddenly feels cocky. He says that the face on that disk is worth so much, that he now demands a lot more money to turn over the contents of the disk.  

Theres suddenly a knock at the door. Someone on the other end says, Its the Landlord. Your rents due. The operative opens the door, and another S.C. agent on the other side is there, and he shoots this guy in the chest. But this agent was smart, and is wearing a bullet proof vest. He in turn kills the Landlord and tells the person on the other end of his earpiece not to send another operative after him, or hell destroy the disk. He says theyll make the exchange tomorrow: A suitcase full of money for the disk. He says that itll be worth their while, cause itll have the name and the face of the person on the golden disk, (and as he says that, we cut to the laptop. We can make out a portion of the womans face, but not well enough to identify the person, but in the corner, the screen reads: Codename:  Mr. Blue).

It probably was Mr. Lips on the other end, and it explains why he was grumpy with S-2 and S-3 earlier. He felt like wasting this other operative, who wont turn over the contents of this disk that he wants.

References: As we see the scenes of the post operation unfold on the Secret Agents labtop, we see the following dates:

PostOp:  June 9th, First Day
PostOp:  Aug. 3rd, 41st Day
PostOp:  Sept. 13th. Last day. Procedure Complete. And the bandages come off on the last day.

When Banner is showing the footage of the Hulks Chicago rampage, he tells Nadia, This is Chicago, some months ago. So its been months since the Chicago incident which started Bruce Jones storyline.

Hulk #53
Dark Minds, Dark Hearts pt. 4 of 5: Enemy Mine
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Mike Deadato Jr.

Appearances: Bruce Banner, Nadia, S-2, S-3, the Abomination, Mr. Lips

Synopsis: PICKS UP THE NEXT DAY AFTER LAST ISSUE. COVERS A FEW HOURS IN TIME.
We start out the following morning. S-2 and S-3 are back in the chamber where the Abomination is kept. They say that today is the day of Emils liberation, and say his orders are to head to the small town of Entropy, which is located 8 clicks North-Northwest of here and that he is to meet his wife, (and Dr. Banner) there at noon. After they have Banner, S-2 says hell hand over the remote control device, (in his hand) which will set off the explosive in Emils neck.

S-2 is about to push the button to release Emil when S-3 tells him to turn around and face her. He does, to find S-3 pointing a gun at him! Hes shocked, and asks why shes doing this. Is he being put out to pasture by the boss, he asks? She says, nope, its her own secret agenda. But he tosses the remote control (to the neck dart in Emil) at her, and shes stunned for a second, so they get in a fight, S-2 trying to get the gun out of her hands. In the frenzy, they accidentally hit the button which releases the Abomination from his shackles. They stare over at him as he walks up to the balcony theyre fighting on, and watch in horror as he smashes the balcony, sending them flying through the air. They both hit the ground with an impact like theyre just thrown from a speeding car. The Abomination doesnt give them a second thought and walks out of the base and on his way.

Meanwhile, we see in a momentary flashback to earlier in the night, Nadia is on Bruces laptop again, talking to Mr. Lips. Mr. Lips says that her moment in the sun is about to come, where shell be reunited with her husband Emiland can pay him back for what he did to her years ago! Nadia has a undecided look on her face.  

We cut to the next morning to see her still looking undecided. She goes down to cook breakfast as Bruce gets up. After breakfast is done, Banner is sitting there drinking his coffee, and he also looks unsure, but he finally speaks up, saying its probably time for him to take off. He doesnt want to put Nadia in any danger, since the S.C. is still chasing him. Nadia interrupts him before he can finish explaining why he must leave. She says the scars came from her husband, who abused her years ago when they were a newlywed couple back in Russia. She reveals that the name of her husband is Emil Blonsky. She says that after her husband had disappeared while here in America, (he was on a spy mission for the USSR, to find the secrets of the Gamma Bomb. Thats when he was accidentally turned in the Abomination) she decided she couldnt move on with her life, even though he was officially dead. She decided a couple years ago to come to America, and to find out what happened to Emil, and if he was still alive, to track him down and kill him herself. For all those years he beat her.

She reveals she had gotten as far as New Mexico, when she was approached by the Secret Conspiracy, who said they would reunite her with Emil, and give her the power to kill him, if only shed help them. Banner figures out the rest: she helps trap Banner and in return gets Emil on a platter. She says she was supposed to have delivered Banner to a small town of Entropy just North of here at 12 noon, 2 hours from now. She says that was the plan, but she started having doubts after meeting him. She admits she drugged Banner with the vitamin pill in the shower, and the tea she gave him yesterday, so she could go through his duffel bag, and says the unexpected happen when she went out to the supply shed to get him some aspirin, only to come back outside and be confronted by the Hulk. Banner says it must have been a reaction to the poison pills she fed him, (which makes sense: as has been seen, sometimes tranquilizers and such have the opposite effect of bringing out the Hulk).

Banner asks if the Hulk hurt her, and she says the Hulk picked her up, and she was scared out of her mind, and that it was like being hit by her husband all those years ago. But in her fear, she slapped the Hulk, and the Hulk just stared back at her with these hurt filled eyes, and said, Nadia? She says that is was then she realized she couldnt turn Banner over to the S.C.  Whereas her husband wouldve hit her back, she could tell Banner was in the monsters eyes somewhere. She saw Banner looking at her with hurt eyes, and she knew she couldnt betray him.

Banner says the deadline for when theyre supposed to be at Entropy is still 2 hours away. He says they need to get in her car and flee as far away from here as possible. She says thats not what she has in mind. Shes going to Entropy alone, and Banner is staying here. Banner says, Like Hell I am. To which she replies shes made sure he will, and Banner stares down at his coffee in horror. Yup, poisoned again. He collapses to the ground, his head suddenly groggy, everything dizzy. She walks out the door, gets in her car, and leaves for Entropy.

Meanwhile, Emil marches steadily along on foot towards Entropy, marching right through a farmhouse in his way. He soon arrives in Entropy, and begins tearing up the small town, ripping it apart, as people flee in fear, or die in his wake.

Banner is on the verge of falling unconscious again, but he tells himself to fight it. He knows he must protect Nadia, and he starts that meditation in his head technique again, focusing on the metronome and the beautiful girl in the bikini. He manages to drag himself off the floor, and goes outside, where he spots an old run down pickup truck, (an extra vehicle Nadia had around). He drags himself in and hotwires it, and takes off, following Nadias tire tracks in the desert sand to Entropy.

We cut back to the Abomination, who is now standing in the ruins of Entropy, seemingly alone. Hes screaming out Nadias name, over and over, demanding she show herself. Nadia suddenly appears, saying shes right here. Emil gloats, saying shes been a very bad girl, but that hes willing to forgive herafter teaching her a lesson. Nadia says she knows all about what the Secret Conspiracy offered him, and reveals they offered her something too: a chance at revenge upon him. She pulls out a remote control device, (similar to the one S-2 was earlier showing Emil) and says that with a push of a button on this, the neck dart in him will explode killing him. Emil frowns at this turn of events. 

Banner soon arrives on the outskirts of what was once Entropy, and stares in horror at the carnage. He gets out, takes off his shoes and his shirt, and his belt, (and we see he now has on the extra baggy pants that he was going to buy off of Nadia back in #50). He marches into town on foot, ready for battle.  

Nadia says, Heres to all those nights you beat me, and pushes the button, only nothing happens! Emil says Heres to trusting strangers! Its a dud, Nadia dear! and he laughs menacingly. Only his gloating is interrupted by a new voice. Someone behind him says, Hey Emil!  Pick on someone your own size! And Emil and Nadia turn to see the Hulk facing them! Banners apparently in control of the behemoth again, and he doesnt look happy.

References: Banner mentions hes been on the run for months to Nadia.

Nadia, as mentioned above, says she came to the States 2 years ago in search of Emil, to see what happened to him. This probably cant be right, considering back in Hulk #24, (the last Abomination appearances, along with #25) Emil, who was mourning the fact that hell never get to see Nadia again, placed a phone call to Nadia, just to hear her voice. In that issue, when Nadia didnt hear a voice on the other end, she said, This is you again isnt it, you pervert? Leave me alone, YOU MONSTER! Taking it for a crank caller, whom she hangs up on. Apparently Emil called from time to time just to hear her voice, but didnt want her to know he was alive, but trapped in a monster body. Hulk #24 in real life was indeed 2 years ago, but going by Marvel time, it was probably less than 2 years ago

Hulk #54
Dark Minds, Dark Hearts pt. 5 of 5: Enemy Mine
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Mike Deadato Jr.

Appearances: Bruce Banner, Nadia Blonsky, S-2, S-3, Mr. Lips, the Abomination.

Synopsis: CONTINUES RIGHT WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE, SAME DAY, ENDS A FEW HOURS LATER.  

The Hulk and the Abomination face off in the ruins of the small town Entropy. The Hulk, (with Banners mind currently) says, EmilIm going to have to ask you to clean this mess up. The Abomination replies, Well, if it isnt Dr. Banner. Permit me to introduce my wife, Nadia. Oh, but wait. YOUVE ALREADY HAD THE PLEASURE! And he punches the Hulk, and the fight begins.

Cut back to the subplot, (last seen in issue #52) which comes to a head this issue. The S.C. agent who was going rogue, (and ransoming the contents of the Golden Disk, which contains Mr. Blues identity),  meets with another S.C. agent, who pulls up in a car. He gets out and offers a suitcase full of money, and they make the exchange. This other agent tells the now rogue agent hes a dead man walking, but the Rogue agent says that after they see the contents of this disk, theyll be too busy dealing with that, and not even bother to look for him.

They go their separate ways, and we see the Rogue agent get in his car, and just as he starts to take off, that car explodes, killing the Rogue agent! Apparently there was a bomb in with the money. The other agent gets back in his car, and Mr. Lips is on the monitor. He says, At lastthe identity of Mr. Blue, Banners strange assistant, will be revealed. The agent pops the disk into a DVD player attached to the monitor, and him and Mr. Lips watch the contents together, fast forwarding to the end where they take off the bandagesand they both gasp!

Cut back to Emil, who is at first wiping the floor with the Hulk. Nadia begs Emil to lay off of him, saying they showed Emil that footage of Banner making love to her to goad him into fighting. He just says, Well, IT WORKED! and continues. Nadia says the S.C. told her what he did to Banners wife; she knows Emil killed her, and that Banner has every right to hate him. Banner suddenly starts fighting back, getting some newfound strength. Also, a mysterious black chopper starts flying by overhead.

Cut back to Mr. Lips, who we now see is having a meeting with some more of his agents back at Homebase. He shows them the footage from the Golden Disk, revealing the face to them: Its S-3, one of their own operatives. One of the agents comments that if she just had plastic surgery, then they still dont know what her real identity is. Mr. Lips says he doesnt care about that, and orders them to proceed out to Area 51, (where S-2 and S-3 last called in, saying they were about to release Emil), and tells them to kill her.

Cut back to the battle. The Hulk warns Emil that they dont have time for this fight, saying itll only hurt both of them. He tells Emil to pay attention to that black chopper circling overhead, and that those are the people after him, and they probably will make sure that after the Hulks defeated, that Nadia and Emil dont leave here alive. He also warns Emil that there have been some changes taking place between his relationship between Banner and the Hulk, and that through meditative techniques, hes seems to have found control over the beast, but he fears that if he were to lose control, it might be permanent, and the Hulk would become a beast that would terrorize the Earth. Emil says he sees the logic of Banners statements, but that he just doesnt care, and punches the Hulk, sending him reelingand he transforms back into Banner. Banner in turn gets right back up and (while still in Banner mode) punches Emil, sending him flying backwards. He says, Like I said, thereve been some changes!

Emil gets back up and the battle resumes, as Banner transforms again into the Hulk. Up in the chopper above, the pilot is telling a fellow agent to fire upon the Hulk, (with another Hulk gun) to which he replies he cant get a good bead on the Hulk, because of all the turbulent winds being thrown by way of the Hulk and Emils punches.

Emil, whos enjoying the insane battle, decides to make this personal and really torment the Hulk. He says to Banner, By the wayever wonder about Betty? About how I killed her? The look on her face? The fear in her eyes? Ever think about that?

We cut to a close up of the Hulks eyes, which have a hurt look upon them. Did I he mumbles.

Now we see the Hulks eyes, which are starting to glare in anger, Ever think

And finally, we see that those eyes are blood red in rage! ABOUT THAT?!?!

He lets loose his full fury, and beats the tar out of Emil, beating him over and over. He picks up the Abomination, and hurls him through the air, straight through the black helicopter, (wherein the agent was just about to fire)  making it explode. And Emil just sails through the air, onward over the horizonnot to be seen again, (for now).

Cut to S-3, who is dragging herself off the floor of the chamber where the Abomination was kept. She is in serious pain, with probably broken bones and internal bleeding, (at least thats what she figures). She notices S-2 is dead, with a broken neck from the fall, and she drags herself over to a laptop, (her own laptop, from where she sends messages to Banner. She types in, Mr. Green, Ive failed. The Abomination is free. Get as far away as possible. She then picks up a phone, (still dragging herself, trying to get out of the base) and calls Homebase. The two agents who have been sent to kill her answer, (and theyre in a car approaching), ask for her location, saying theyll pick her up and get her healed. She says shes still in the military base, and they hang up rather abruptly. She wonders why they did that, and suddenly wonders if shes in danger. She notices a female corpse laying at the desk next to her, (one of the people who run this base, whom they gassed back in #50).

Cut to later. Banner is back at Nadias place, completely calmed down. Nadia is there, and theyre discussing what theyll do now. Banner says hes just glad hes back to being Banner, and that for a second there, he feared hed lost control to the Beast within permanently. He says that its time for him to be moving on. She says that its best if she leaves here as well. Shes done seeking revenge upon Emil. She says shes considering what life in New York might be like, and asks Banner if hes ever up there?  He smiles, (of course he isheck, every year he stops by there and has an adventure with the Avengers or someone else). He says if he ever is, hell try and stop by and pay her a visit. She kisses him passionately, and he asks what that was for. She says to let her know that it wasnt all for show the other night, (when they made love, so the S.C. could show it to Emil). They go their separate ways.

Cut back to the two agents, who arrive at the wreckage of the military base, and find whom they think is S-3. Her face is all cut up, and shes already dead. They conclude she died of her injuries from when they Abomination broke out. They shoot her in the back repeatedly, just to be sure and leave. Over at a nearby desk, we see the dead woman who S-3 spied earlier. S-3 is wearing her clothes, and put the agent clothes on the already dead woman. Shes playing dead while the two agents shoot the dead body. As they leave, we see the look in her eyes: shes wondering what to do now

References: Emil says during the battle that he was kept locked up for months and months, forced to watch that same endless loop of footage of him kissing Nadia goodbye back in Russia all those years ago.

Speaking about that footage, I must say I love what they have done with the relationship between the Abomination and the Hulk. Emil kills Betty, Bruces wife, as revenge for the fact that hes a Gamma created monster, who feels he can never see his wife again. So that footage of Nadia saying, Oh EmilIll always love you. Was particularly torturous. And it begs the question, how can Nadia say that, when its been revealed now that Emil was a wife abuser back in the USSR? Battered wife syndrome is the answer, Id say. But upon her husbands disappearance, over timeshe must have snapped out of it, and though she tried to move on with her life, she decided she couldnt till she came to America to kill Emil herself.

I still like Paul Jenkins run on the Hulk better than I have Bruce Jones, but both authors have found unique ways to twist the Bruce/Emil and Betty/Nadia relationship that Peter David wouldve never even dreamed of.

Hulk #24 and 25 told the story of Emils life from his point of view, and we see a man who wants nothing more than to fade away, since he cant see his wife again, (feeling she shouldnt have to see him as a monster, and its better she figures him to be dead), and all attempts at revenge upon Banner, (including killing Betty) have failed.

Hulk #50 to 54 turns the equation on its head, telling the story from Nadias point of view, and we learn that though from Emils Point of View, we would pity him, from Nadias view, we see him as a monster he truly looks like now. 

Hulk #24 and 25 are a Shakespearian tale of revenge, and of Revenges failure to provide comfort, as well as a tale of lost love

Hulk 50 to 54 is an unfolding Hitchcockian tale of revenge, and of lost love turned sour, wherein we eventually see Emil for what he is: a monster on the inside as well as the outside.

Pure Brilliance. I hope youll forgive this last little bit of exposition on my part, but I figured as much work as I put into detailed synopsis, I was entitled to a bit of rambling here at the very bottom.

Thats it for now.  Ill post reviews of Hulk/Wolverine miniseries here in a few weeks

If youve read this far, you win a free chocolate bar

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review for Hulk Issues #44-54, for Paul's calender...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on June 19, 2003 at 20:30:47:
In Reply to: Chronology review for Hulk Issues #44-54, for Paul's calender...
posted by Kevin  on June 19, 2003 at 15:46:23:

Great as usual, Kevin.  I picked up the quarter issue of Hulk (#55) last week, so we're up to date.  By the way, that issue occurs on Monday, Feb. 17.  So if we can fit #44-54 in the two and a half months just prior to that, we're good to go.  I'll let you know if I have questions or placement troubles.  Thanks!

--Paul

			*	*	*

Previous appearance by Nadia Blonsky
Posted by Don Campbell on June 20, 2003 at 01:51:35:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology review for Hulk Issues #44-54, for Paul's calender...
posted by Paul Bourcier on June 19, 2003 at 20:30:47:

I believe that Nadia Blonsky has appeared before, in the pages of the second HULK series.  The story was part of the INFINITY GAUNTLET crossover, about H2 383-384, and took place in New York City.  Rick Jones was interested in a blond actress (Nadia) who he believed was being stalked by a fan.  Rick called the Hulk for help...and it was then that Thanos used the Infinity Gauntlet to wipe out half the people in the universe.  The Hulk got called in to help battle Thanos in outer space but the mad Titan shrank him down to a tiny size and sent him back to Earth...in the New York City sewers.  While there, the tiny Hulk found that Nadia had been kidnapped by her stalker, the Abomination, who wanted to be near her but couldn't bear to let her see him in his monstrous form.  The Hulk decided to use his tiny size to sneak into the Abomination's ear and pretend to be...the Voice of GOD!!!  Acting as Emil's conscience, the Hulk convinced him that, if he loved Nadia, he had to let her go (and it's made clear that, while the Hulk is talking to Emil about Nadia, he is keenly aware that what he's telling Emil applies just as well to "Bruce" and Betty).  Anyway, Emil returns the unconscious Nadia to the surface and goes back down into the sewers before she sees him.  Just then, the tiny Hulk is sucked into a space warp opened by Doctor Strange and so he misses the Abomination's last words which are something like "Thank you, Bruce"---showing that Emil knew all along that "God" was really the Hulk.

One thing to note about this story is that it may not have happened anymore. In INFINITY GAUNTLET #1, Thanos killed half of all the living beings in the universe (there are a few panels of the Hulk saying that it's not just Rick who has disappeared but that he still thinks that the Abomination is involved somehow). In IG #4, Thanos shrinks the Hulk to tiny size and sends him back to Earth (where he encounters the Abomination in his own title).  Finally, in IG #6, Nebula uses the Infinity Gauntlet to make things as they were 24 hours ago, thereby undoing the "Great Disappearance" and everything that happened since then.  Presumably this includes the Hulk's shrinking and his encounter with Emil.  So what happened to Nadia?

I'm not sure how (or even if) this information affects Kevin's chronology, except as regards to Nadia's backstory.  Depending on how fast "Marvel Time" passes compared to normal time, I suppose that events that happened over 140 issues ago could have occurred only two years ago but I rather doubt it.  My best guess is that Nadia came to NYC to work as actress as part of her attempt to get on with her life and it was only after that didn't work that she decided to seek out Emil and kill him.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: Previous appearance by Nadia Blonsky
Posted by Kevin  on June 20, 2003 at 14:01:13:
In Reply to: Previous appearance by Nadia Blonsky
posted by Don Campbell on June 20, 2003 at 01:51:35:

Wow, you're right.  I'd forgotten all about that storyline.  My Hulk collection from the late 80's and early 90's isn't very big, (funny how the early Peter David period was the most popular, yet those issues are the ones I have the least of...).  But, I do distinctly remember reading that storyline from a friend who owned the issues, (and of course, I was very much into reading anything connected to the Infinity Gauntlet that year).

Anyway, I remembered the basics of the plot, with Hulk playing the part of Emil's consious, but forgot that the kidnapped woman was Nadia herself, (I just thought it was a woman he had a crush on, but that's the problem with memories)...

The Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe website lists the following under the Abomination concerning that storyline:

"At one point, Blonsky began stalking his former wife, Nadia Dornova, a recent emigrant to the United States and star of Broadway who believed her husband dead. Blonsky soon kidnapped Nadia but was confronted by the Hulk and the Pantheon. Recently developing religious tendencies, Blonsky was convinced by the Hulk to allow Nadia to return rather than reveal the truth of his now-monstrous existence."

I noticed Nadia doesn't have a chronology...So that would make Nadia's chronology look like...

H3 52-Flashback, (if you count the short glimps of Nadia's memory, showing her being beaten by Emil)

H3 25-Flashback (on the CIA videotape, Emil kisses Nadia goodbye, and she says she'll always love him-must be her playing the part of a battered wife)

H2 383
H2 384
H3 24
H3 50
H3 51
H3 52
H3 53
H3 54

unless I missed something...

The cameo appearance in H3 24 then begs the question: where was Nadia when Emil called her, just to listen to her voice.  That scene where she gets the phone call happens at what appears to be a workout gym, (apparently Blonsky knows where she likes to workout?) but I just assumed it was back in Russia.  Nobody in the gym speaks Russian, (there's no note from the editor saying "translated from Russian"...) If Nadia was still in the U.S., then that throws the "2 years ago I entered the U.S. in search of my husband" line into even more confusion.

She'd obviously been in New York as a Broadway star for a little while, (that was the early 90's in real life) but I think that Don's explanation works best:  After her husband's death, she focused on her acting career, came to Broadway, that somehow fell apart, so she went back to Russia, but she couldn't get over her husband's disapearance, so she came back to America in search of Emil.

Let me say again I think the writers that have come after Peter David have taken the Hulk/Abomination dynamic, and really changed it so that these two are each other's arch nemesis, (perhaps the writers are making up for a lack of The Leader being around).  Joe Casey had the guts to have Emil be the one behind Betty's death, (I think Peter David was going to have it stick out, as was originally thought, that it was Hulk's own radiation that killed her).  Paul Jenkins made Emil tragic again, while keeping him evil, and Bruce Jones has made him evil through his entire soul...

			*	*	*

Re: Previous appearance by Nadia Blonsky
Posted by Don Campbell on June 20, 2003 at 14:49:41:
In Reply to: Re: Previous appearance by Nadia Blonsky
posted by Kevin  on June 20, 2003 at 14:01:13:

I dug out those Hulk issues to check up on a few things.  First, "Miss Nadia Dornova" and her stalker-in-the-shadows first appeared in H2 382 (cover-dated June 1991).  It was in H2 383 that the Pantheon's files listed her as an "actress and recent emigre from the Soviet Union, currently starring on Broadway in Metamorphosis" who "was once married to an Emil Blonsky."

Second, the Abomination only kidnapped Nadia AFTER Thanos used the Infinity Gauntlet to kill off half of the universe's population. It was the panic caused by the mass disappearance that allowed Emil to approach Nadia, who was lying dazed in the street after having been knocked down by the fleeing crowd.  And since Nebula later used the Infinity Gauntlet to restore the universe to exactly how it was 24 hours earlier, the whole "Great Disappearance" only lasted for "mere moments" and "most people remembered nothing of what had occurred."

As I see it, one of two things happened in the reset universe.  Either A) Emil never kidnapped Nadia (possibly because the Hulk prevented him from doing so) or B) he did kidnap her and the Hulk rescued her but the exact circumstances of the kidnapping/rescue were somewhat different from what was depicted in H2 383-384.

Don Campbell

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Re: Previous appearance by Nadia Blonsky
Posted by Administrator on June 20, 2003 at 15:21:04:
In Reply to: Re: Previous appearance by Nadia Blonsky
posted by Kevin  on June 20, 2003 at 14:01:13:

> I noticed Nadia doesn't have a chronology...So that would make Nadia's chronology look like...

She's listed. See DORNOVA-BLONSKY, NADIA.

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Re: Previous appearance by Nadia Blonsky
Posted by Kevin  on June 20, 2003 at 15:56:56:
In Reply to: Re: Previous appearance by Nadia Blonsky
posted by Don Campbell on June 20, 2003 at 14:49:41:

*And so, after reading both Don and the Administrator's comments...*

> She's listed. See DORNOVA-BLONSKY, NADIA.

Woops.  You're absolutely right, Russ.  You even got the flashback in Hulk #25!  Looks spiffy, and if you don't mind, I'll post it here since we're reviewing the order of events for Nadia...

DORNOVA-BLONSKY, NADIA
H3 25-FB
H2 382
H2 383
H2 384
H@ 20
N 58
H3 24

Hey, I got that Hulk annual #20, (somewhere...I'm not home right now, but think I'll go home and read it, been years for that one...damn, that's another one I forgot! It was an extra comic that came in a bundle of back issues I bought, I only half read it way back when...)

Anyway, Don, (I read your comments as well) you may have a point about that bit of continuity being 'wiped out'...

When continuity is wiped out like that, the character appearances still count as needing to be listed in the MCP, right?  Anyone else have thoughts on this?

			*	*	*

Re: Previous appearance by Nadia Blonsky
Posted by Kevin  on June 21, 2003 at 10:37:20:
In Reply to: Re: Previous appearance by Nadia Blonsky
posted by Kevin  on June 20, 2003 at 15:56:56:

> DORNOVA-BLONSKY, NADIA
> H3 25-FB
> H2 382
> H2 383
> H2 384
> H@ 20
> N 58
> H3 24

I reread Hulk annual 20 last night, and Nadia doesn't actually appear there.  The annual features the Abomination, who is hanging out with some homeless bums in the sewers of New York.  They're telling stories, and Emil tells a fairy tale, with him as the hero, Nadia as the princess, and Banner as the evil monster, but that's all...it's a fairy tale, not an actual appearance by Nadia.

Namor 58 is the only other spot on that list above where Nadia supposedly appears, but I don't have that issue...what's Nadia or the Abomination doing in Namor? 

			*	*	*

Nadia Blonsky in Namor
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 21, 2003 at 17:50:31:
In Reply to: Re: Previous appearance by Nadia Blonsky
posted by Kevin  on June 21, 2003 at 10:37:20:

> Namor 58 is the only other spot on that list above where Nadia supposedly appears, but I don't have that issue...what's Nadia or the Abomination doing in Namor? 

Nadia appears on pg 4, specified as..."Broadway, New York... where Nadia Dornova, actress and recent Russian Emigre recites her lines..." During the performance she is kidnapped by unknown assailants who want to use her safety to coerce the Abomination to salvage a sunken sub with its Plutonium cargo. Abomination shows up at the end of N 58 and the battle carries on in N 59.

Nadia appears in N 59 as well as N 58; she is shown being held by her captors (pg 12/5).

so... 

DORNOVA-BLONSKY, NADIA
H3 25-FB
H2 382
H2 383
H2 384
H@ 20
N 58
** N 59
H3 24

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Re:  Nadia Blonsky in Namor
Posted by Don Campbell on June 22, 2003 at 11:51:53:
In Reply to: Nadia Blonsky in Namor
posted by Arthur Stein on June 21, 2003 at 17:50:31:

> DORNOVA-BLONSKY, NADIA
> H3 25-FB
> H2 382
> H2 383
> H2 384
> H@ 20
> N 58
> ** N 59
> H3 24

Two thing. First, Arthur forgot to remove H@ 20 from Nadia's chronology. (I know that's a petty thing to point out but I just spent the last couple of hours looking for the Abomination's appearances in that HULK annual and those NAMOR issues...only to log on and find that what I had found out had already been posted by Kevin and Arthur).  **sigh**

Second, the Hulk's first encounter with the Abomination (after H2 384) occurs in H2 431-432.  While watching a TV news report about how the Abomination kidnapped a woman in the NYC sewers (which, actually, wasn't a kidnapping - Emil was just carrying his friend Sandy away from a dangerous situation), the Hulk mentions how he "stepped in once when (Emil)kidnapped a woman."  This seems to confirm that Emil's kidnapping of Nadia (seen in H2 383-384) did take place, even though, thanks to Nebula's trick with the Infinity Gauntlet, the exact circumstances of that kidnapping must have been different from what was depicted in those issues.

> Anyway, Don, (I read your comments as well) you may have a point about that bit of continuity being 'wiped out'...

> When continuity is wiped out like that, the character appearances still count as needing to be listed in the MCP, right? Anyone else have thoughts on this? 

I have no idea.  My best guess is that such appearances should be listed but possibly with some special notation that reminds the reader that those events have been retroactively removed from continuity.  Perhaps they should be enclosed in double brackets or something (ie. <<H2 384>>).

Off hand, I can't think of many other similar situations.  The only one that comes to mind is from AVENGERS #10, when the Enchantress used her magic to erase the unsuccessful alliance that she, Baron Zemo and the Executioner had made with Immortus.  She did this by transporting them back in time several days so that they could choose to NOT join with Immortus and thereby erase those events from history.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: Wiped-Out Continuties
Posted by Don Campbell on June 26, 2003 at 00:05:43:
In Reply to: Re:  Nadia Blonsky in Namor
posted by Don Campbell on June 22, 2003 at 11:51:53:

> > Anyway, Don, (I read your comments as well) you may have a point about that bit of continuity being 'wiped out'...

> > When continuity is wiped out like that, the character appearances still count as needing to be listed in the MCP, right? Anyone else have thoughts on this? 

> I have no idea.  My best guess is that such appearances should be listed but possibly with some special notation that reminds the reader that those events have been retroactively removed from continuity.  Perhaps they could be enclosed by double brackets or something.

> Off hand, I can't think of many other similar situations.  The only one that comes to mind is from AVENGERS (Vol. 1) #10, when the Enchantress used her magic to erase the unsuccessful alliance that she, Baron Zemo and the Executioner had made with Immortus.  She did this by transporting them back in time several days so that they could choose to NOT join with Immortus and thereby erase those events from history.

Actually, once I'd thought about it some more, I realized that I had forgotten a very significant example of "wiped-out" continuity, those classic stories written by Jim Starlin about Adam Warlock's struggle with the Universal Church of Truth and its god-leader, the Magus, who was Warlock's future-self.  As shown in STRANGE TALES #178-181 and WARLOCK #9-11, the forces of Chaos and Order had chosen to transform Adam into a Champion of Life who would appose a soon-to-arrive Champion of Death.  Unaware of this, Warlock chose to oppose the transformation since the Magus was a genocidal tyrant.  In the end, Warlock was able to block the creation of the Magus and choose another destiny for himself, one in which he died only a few months later.  However, since Adam would have travelled 5,000 years into the past as part of his transformation into the Magus, his preventing that sequence of events retroactively changed the past 5,000 years of history, effectively destroying the old universe, then causing it to be reborn as a new universe in which the Magus had never existed.  The only beings to remember that the Magus had ever existed (as from the cosmic entities like Eternity and the Living Tribunal) were the four who were at the eye of this "explosive reshuffling of time": Warlock, Pip, Gamora and Thanos.

In checking out the entries for some of the characters involved in that storyline, it appears that there is already some sort of policy in place for dealing with wiped-out appearances.  The entries for Gamora, Pip, Thanos and Warlock all include those issues mentioned above but the Matriarch of the Universal Church is not listed since, in the reborn universe, that woman was never chosen for that role by the (non-existent) Magus.  Also, Autolycus and Judge Kray-Tor only have their later appearances (in Soul World) listed which, ironically, is actually a mistake.  The fact that it was clearly established that the souls of Autolycus and Kray-Tor are from the old universe means that the Soul Gem (and all the souls within its inner Soul World) must have been as unaffected by time's reshuffling as Warlock, the bearer of the Soul Gem, was.  Therefore, their appearances in the Strange Tales/Warlock storyline should be listed in their entries.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Just a quick note...
Posted by Kevin  on June 20, 2003 at 16:05:05:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology review for Hulk Issues #44-54, for Paul's calender...
posted by Paul Bourcier on June 19, 2003 at 20:30:47:

> Great as usual, Kevin.  I picked up the quarter issue of Hulk (#55) last week, so we're up to date.  By the way, that issue occurs on Monday, Feb. 17.  So if we can fit #44-54 in the two and a half months just prior to that, we're good to go.  I'll let you know if I have questions or placement troubles.  Thanks!

I'll go ahead and say that I believe Hulk/Wolverine: 6 hours happens between Hulk #54 and 55.  Banner was moving southward from Colorado it seems inbetween #49 and #50, and was in New Mexico starting in #50.  

At the start of Hulk/Wolverine: 6 hours, Banner's at an airport, (in an unspecified town or city) and he sneaks onto a plane that ends up in Canada, where he ends up having an adventure with Wolverine, (which lasts over the course of 6 hours, so the whole miniseries happens in 1 day).  I just figured that after that adventure, he heads south, and ends up in New York City, (which is where he's at in #55).  Just figured I'd point that out, but I'll have more detailed analysis on the two recent Hulk/Wolverine miniseries in a week or two...

			*	*	*

Placement of Spider-Man & Wolverine #1
Posted by Paul Bourcier on June 20, 2003 at 07:29:56:

I just finished reading this week's Spider-Man & Wolverine #1 and am left wondering where this might best fit in Logan's and Spidey's chronologies.

This seems to happen before Peter's recent reunion with M.J. and during the school year.  Nick Fury calls Spidey in to rescue Logan, who is held hostage on an island off the coast of Japan.

I wonder if Jeph and Antonio have picked this issue up, as they are hammering out the comings and goings of Wolverine and Spider-Man, respectively.

--Paul

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Re: Placement of Spider-Man & Wolverine #1
Posted by Antonio Gavio on June 21, 2003 at 13:49:08:
In Reply to: Placement of Spider-Man & Wolverine #1
posted by Paul Bourcier on June 20, 2003 at 07:29:56:

I would wait for more clues from the coming issue.

			*	*	*

Re: Placement of Spider-Man & Wolverine #1
Posted by Jeph! on June 22, 2003 at 15:50:43:
In Reply to: Re: Placement of Spider-Man & Wolverine #1
posted by Antonio Gavio on June 21, 2003 at 13:49:08:

> I would wait for more clues from the coming issue.

Me too, but in tentative and basic terms I'm going to throw it between W2 #189 and W3 #1, for now...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Madeline Pryor (Prior)?
Posted by Jason Powell on June 20, 2003 at 15:34:28:

I can't find her on the MCP.  Am I forgetting an alias of hers or something?

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Re: Madeline Pryor (Prior)?
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 20, 2003 at 16:59:15:
In Reply to: Madeline Pryor (Prior)?
posted by Jason Powell on June 20, 2003 at 15:34:28:

Under her married name: 
SUMMERS, MADELYNE "MADDIE" JENNIFER PRYOR

			*	*	*

Re: Madeline Pryor (Prior)?
Posted by Jeph! on June 22, 2003 at 15:47:52:
In Reply to: Re: Madeline Pryor (Prior)?
posted by Arthur Stein on June 20, 2003 at 16:59:15:

I've maybe said this before, but shouldn't she really be listed under her codename of the Goblin Queen?  Or at least have a link from "Goblin Queen" and "Madelyne Pryor" pointing folks to the S page?

It seems to me that I see this question pop up every now and again, and given how very often she was referred to as "Madelyne Pryor" in the books, plus the fact that she more than likely dropped her husband's name after her resurrection in X-Man #5, I really think she should be listed under either "Pryor, Madelyne" or "Goblin Queen".  NOBODY, including me, thinks to check for her under "Summers".

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Multiple Maddie Pryors
Posted by Don Campbell on June 22, 2003 at 23:25:10:
In Reply to: Re: Madeline Pryor (Prior)?
posted by Jeph! on June 22, 2003 at 15:47:52:

> I've maybe said this before, but shouldn't she really be listed under her codename of the Goblin Queen?  Or at least have a link from "Goblin Queen" and "Madelyne Pryor" pointing folks to the S page?

I totally agree with Jeph on this.  Just this last week I went looking for Madelyne's listing and I went straight to the Gs for Goblin Queen.  As things currently stand, Madelyne's entry doesn't even acknowledge that she was ever known by a codename.  Perhaps the MCP could handle her entry the way they did with Cable and create two linked entries for her.  The entry for "Summers, Madelyne" would contain all her appearances up until the time when S'ym (or was it N'astirh?) transformed/corrupted her.  Then there would be a "See Goblin Queen" link and all her appearances after her corruption would be listed there under "Goblin Queen/Pryor, Madelyne".

However, if Madelyne could only have one entry, I would prefer that she be listed under "Goblin Queen" since codenames seem to be what the people who use this site look for first.

> It seems to me that I see this question pop up every now and again, and given how very often she was referred to as "Madelyne Pryor" in the books, plus the fact that she more than likely dropped her husband's name after her resurrection in X-Man #5, I really think she should be listed under either "Pryor, Madelyne" or "Goblin Queen".  NOBODY, including me, thinks to check for her under "Summers".

I have to disagree with both Jeph and the MCP about something here.  The Madelyne Pryor who appeared in X-MAN #5 onwards was actually NOT the same Madelyne who became the Goblin Quenn.  As I recall, it was eventually revealed that the Madelyne Pryor that Nate Grey seemingly resurrected in X-MAN #5 was actually an evil other-dimensional counterpart of Jean Grey.  This evil Jean had been expelled from her own world for her crimes and had travelled to Earth-998 where she had passed herself off as being the resurrected "Queen Madelyne Pryor" who had ruled most of that Earth before dying of old age.  Knowing that the various Nate Greys had been created to be the ultimate living weapons, "Queen Maddie" had been travelling from Earth to Earth looking for a Nate that she could control and that would not burn out.  When she wanted to come to Earth-616, Queen Maddie planted the idea of resurrecting Maddie Pryor into Nate's mind and used what he created as a doorway through which she could enter Nate's new dimension.  To keep her true identity a secret, she had had her own memories suppressed for a time so that she could get close to Nate and gain his trust so that she could slowly plant her hooks into his mind.  During that period, everyone, including her, believed that she was the original Madelyne Pryor somehow recreated by Nate Grey...but she wasn't.

Don Campbell

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Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
Posted by Jeph! on June 23, 2003 at 00:20:51:
In Reply to: Multiple Maddie Pryors
posted by Don Campbell on June 22, 2003 at 23:25:10:

Having not read the X-Man story in question in quite a wee while, I can't argue this too strongly, but here's what I took from those issues:

It's certain that the Maddy Pryor/Jean Grey in X-Men #67-70 is an alternate, but her story -- that she was "our" Maddy all along, from X-Man #5 onwards, doesn't hold much water.

Okay, this alternate claims to have suppressed her own memories -- but in X-Man #6, the newly-reborn Maddy is shown remembering bits of her past -- specifically, Havok.  And in X-Man #20 or so, when Maddy's hand is cut, she doesn't start to bleed until she notices and realizes she SHOULD be bleeding.

Both of these clues -- and others that I can't currently recall -- strongly back up Kavanagh's original premise, that Maddy's memories and soul were subconscioualy gathered from the four corners of the earth and re-created by Nate, in a body not of flesh and blood, but of pure psionic energy.

In X-Man #52, Maddy is severely depleted and wounded, and teleports away.  The next time she is seen in the pages of X-Man is in #67-70, revealing that she's an alternate Jean.  In-between those two issues, Maddy makes an appearance in Cable #76, incongruously claiming to now be only a ghost on the psionic plane.

The inference that I and many fans have taken from this is: the Maddy from X-Man #5-52 WAS INDEED "our" Maddy, truly recreated by Nate.  Sometime between X-Man #52 and Cable #76, when she was weakened, she was attacked, killed (or dispersed) and replaced by the evil alternate Jean, who went on to appear in X-Man #67-70.  This would explain Maddy's appearance as a "ghost" in Cable #76, and allow Kavanagh's many hints that Maddy WAS Maddy to stand, while allowing the majority of evil Jean's plan and allegations to still stand as well.  Her claims to have ALWAYS been Nate's "Maddy" don't jibe at all with what we saw of her in those early issues of X-Man.

-Jeph!

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Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
Posted by Don Campbell on June 23, 2003 at 12:35:09:
In Reply to: Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
posted by Jeph! on June 23, 2003 at 00:20:51:

> Having not read the X-Man story in question in quite a wee while, I can't argue this too strongly, but here's what I took from those issues:

> It's certain that the Maddy Pryor/Jean Grey in X-Men #67-70 is an alternate, but her story -- that she was "our" Maddy all along, from X-Man #5 onwards, doesn't hold much water.

> Okay, this alternate claims to have suppressed her own memories -- but in X-Man #6, the newly-reborn Maddy is shown remembering bits of her past -- specifically, Havok.  And in X-Man #20 or so, when Maddy's hand is cut, she doesn't start to bleed until she notices and realizes she SHOULD be bleeding.

> Both of these clues -- and others that I can't currently recall -- strongly back up Kavanagh's original premise, that Maddy's memories and soul were subconscioualy gathered from the four corners of the earth and re-created by Nate, in a body not of flesh and blood, but of pure psionic energy.

Okay, I have a different take on the situation.  I believe that both origins have some validity.  I think that Nate DID recreate "our" Maddie but that he was secretly compelled to do so by the evil alternate Jean so that the new Maddie's body would serve as a doorway through which evil Jean could enter Earth-616.  I also think that, at the moment of Maddie's recreation, evil Jean somehow merged her being/essence with Nate's construct so that the recreated Maddie was always really a combination of two entities: the psionic energy construct that thought it was the resurrected Madelyne Pryor merged with the hidden essence of the evil alternate Jean Grey.  I think that it was the (secret) presence of the evil Jean that made the Maddie construct so much more stable and long-lasting than Nate's other creations.

> In X-Man #52, Maddy is severely depleted and wounded, and teleports away.  The next time she is seen in the pages of X-Man is in #67-70, revealing that she's an alternate Jean.  In-between those two issues, Maddy makes an appearance in Cable #76, incongruously claiming to now be only a ghost on the psionic plane.

In my opinion, the merged Maddie/Jean being changed over time.  At first, the part of the merged entity that was the recreated Maddie was dominant so she had Maddie's memories and the body was primarily a psionic construct.  Later, perhaps after being wounded in X-MAN #52, the previously-submerged essence of the evil Jean began to assert her control over their shared body.  Eventually, evil Jean took it over completely, expelling the recreated Maddie's consciousness (enabling her to appear as a ghost to Cable) while transforming the body back into her original, flesh-and-blood form.

> The inference that I and many fans have taken from this is: the Maddy from X-Man #5-52 WAS INDEED "our" Maddy, truly recreated by Nate.  Sometime between X-Man #52 and Cable #76, when she was weakened, she was attacked, killed (or dispersed) and replaced by the evil alternate Jean, who went on to appear in X-Man #67-70.  This would explain Maddy's appearance as a "ghost" in Cable #76, and allow Kavanagh's many hints that Maddy WAS Maddy to stand, while allowing the majority of evil Jean's plan and allegations to still stand as well.  Her claims to have ALWAYS been Nate's "Maddy" don't jibe at all with what we saw of her in those early issues of X-Man.

Two things.  First, if you're right that the evil Jean only appeared as Maddie in X-MAN #67-70, then those issues should NOT be listed as part of "our" Maddie's chronology.  Instead, there should be a totally separate entry for this "other" Maddie, right?  And what name would she be listed under?  She began life as the Jean Grey from an unspecified alternate Earth; she travelled to Earth-998 where she pretended to be the reborn Queen Madelyne Pryor (after the real Queen Maddie-998 had died of old age); and she came to Earth-616 where she posed as the psionic recreation of Madelyne "Maddie" Jennifer Pryor Summers who was herself a clone of Jean Grey Summers-616.

Second, I can't say that I totally accept the idea that Nate could have recreated "our" Maddie in the first place.  Part of it has to do with the fact that Terry Kavanaugh wrote those stories.  I generally like his stories but they often seem rather gimmicky and implausible and that may be prejudicing me against accepting his origin for Maddie completely.  However, I also remember facts about the original Maddie's creation and death that make me doubt Kavanaugh's premise.  During the "Inferno" storyline it was established that Madelyne Pryor was a composite being with a body that was a clone of Jean Grey and a mind that contained both the false memories programmed into her by Mister Sinister and the real Jean's memories that were mistakenly sent to her by the Phoenix-force (after it destroyed its own Jean-body in UX 137).  In her final battle with Jean, Madelyne locked their minds together telepathically in an attempt to drag Jean into death with her.  Jean survived but Maddie's consciousness (or a copy of it) remained within her mind and made several attempts to take control of her body before Jean was finally able to expell Maddie's personality (but not her memories).  Given that Madelyne's personality and memories were transferred into Jean's mind as she died, the idea that Maddie's memories and soul were somehow lying scattered around the Earth, just waiting for Nate Grey to gather them together, seems rather unlikely to me...probably as unlikely as the idea that Nate's Maddie was always really the evil alternate Jean seems to you.

Don Campbell

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Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on June 23, 2003 at 15:38:44:
In Reply to: Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
posted by Don Campbell on June 23, 2003 at 12:35:09:

> Given that Madelyne's personality and memories were transferred into Jean's mind as she died, the idea that Maddie's memories and soul were somehow lying scattered around the Earth, just waiting for Nate Grey to gather them together, seems rather unlikely to me...probably as unlikely as the idea that Nate's Maddie was always really the evil alternate Jean seems to you.

Agreed.  I would probably describe what Nate gathered as Madelyne Pryor's "echo on the psionic plane."

I think the main problem here is that we have no reliable (i.e. coming from an "omniscient narrator") information on the Counter X Madelyne.

Since "Nate resurrects Madelyne" sounds potentially more unlikely to me than "powerful Maddie from other world arrives and lets Nate believe that he resurrected Madelyne," I'm more inclined to go with something like your explanation.

Marc-Oliver Frisch

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Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
Posted by Jeph! on June 23, 2003 at 21:17:23:
In Reply to: Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on June 23, 2003 at 15:38:44:

> Since "Nate resurrects Madelyne" sounds potentially more unlikely to me than "powerful Maddie from other world arrives and lets Nate believe that he resurrected Madelyne," I'm more inclined to go with something like your explanation.

Except what we end up with is "powerful Jean from another world impersonates Maddy, mainpulates Nate to make her think that she IS our Maddy for a very long time, and abandons her true body to live inside one made out of psychic energy".

I personally think "Nate resurrects Madelyne, who was a disembodied consciousness from X-Factor #40-50 anyway" is a hell of a lot simpler.

-Jeph!

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Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
Posted by Andy Holcombe on June 23, 2003 at 22:05:23:
In Reply to: Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
posted by Jeph! on June 23, 2003 at 21:17:23:

> I personally think "Nate resurrects Madelyne, who was a disembodied consciousness from X-Factor #40-50 anyway" is a hell of a lot simpler.

But didn't Jean expell the Phoenix and Maddie personalities while fighting the Celestials on an alien planet in X-Factor #50?  So how was Maddie's personality floating around on Earth to begin with?

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Re: Multiple Jean Greys
Posted by French Thom on July 02, 2003 at 18:39:11:
In Reply to: Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
posted by Andy Holcombe on June 23, 2003 at 22:05:23:

Does anyone know if Chris Claremont ever explained whatever went into Marvel's editors' minds when they decided to bring back Jean Grey in Fantastic Four and Avengers in 1985 while it was sure, back in that time, that Maddie was indeed the Phoenix/Jean (no differences between both at that point) resurected?

What were Claremont's plans? Did he intend to reveal the resurrection for issue #200 and turned instead to a Magneto story as having his whole plan ruined by John Byrne? What was supposed to happen with only one Jean/Phoenix? Did Byrne did that on purpose, just to piss off Claremont?

I'm still pissed off anyway of that return of Jean Grey in X-Factor, while I'm sure Claremont had some great plans...

Jus imagine: we would have no Phoenix as a separate entity but only as the ultimate manifestation of Jean's mutant power, her resurection as Maddie as logical as the name Phoenix says, no "Queen Maddie", no clones, no clone resurected from the psychic plane by a kid from another dimension, no stupid explanation by Alan Davis in Excalibur about the Phoenix force, no Goblin Queen...

Everybody who wrote something about red-headed mutant girl after Chris Claremont just complicated everything, and my opinion is that we should just kill all the Jean/Maddie/Phoenix for good, as nobody seems to resurrect these days. Jean Grey has always been a boring character anyway, stupid enough to believe her sister has been kidnapped and killed by the Phalanx when it did not even exist at the time of her disappearance.

But maybe Grant Morrison will make something interesting with her, for once, like turning her into an easy girl, reveal that she had sex with all the original X-Men while waiting for Scott to go out with her...

I don't know...

But I would be despaired if any other writer was deciding to use anymore clones or alternate versions of her...

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Re: Multiple Jean Greys
Posted by Harrison on July 28, 2003 at 21:14:36:
In Reply to: Re: Multiple Jean Greys
posted by French Thom on July 02, 2003 at 18:39:11:

> Does anyone know if Chris Claremont ever explained whatever went into Marvel's editors' minds when they decided to bring back Jean Grey in Fantastic Four and Avengers in 1985 while it was sure, back in that time, that Maddie was indeed the Phoenix/Jean (no differences between both at that point) resurected?

> What were Claremont's plans? Did he intend to reveal the resurrection for issue #200 and turned instead to a Magneto story as having his whole plan ruined by John Byrne? What was supposed to happen with only one Jean/Phoenix? Did Byrne did that on purpose, just to piss off Claremont?

My understanding is that, first of all, yes, Byrne did in fact do that at least in part to piss off Claremont.  Bear in mind that Byrne drew the pages of Phoenix committing suicide behind Claremont's back in response to Shooter demanding a more fitting punishment for the character's evil deeds.  Claremont was furious, but Byrne considered it fair play.  Byrne was constantly complaining that Claremont would write dialog for his art that completely contradicted what they had discussed while co-plotting the stories, and it was probably the big reason Byrne left the book.  If you look at X-Men and Fantastic Four during the entire time Byrne was writing the latter, those two were constantly rewriting each other's stories and characters.  My favorite was the revelation that Doctor Doom from X-Men 145-147 was in fact a robot, revealed in FF.  That's the most gross example, but if you hunt you can find many more little jabs, as each writer explains what "really" happened in the other one's book.

For a particularly venomous example, compare the flashback in the shuttle from FF where Phoenix and Jean make the switch to Claremont's version of the exact same scene from Classic X-Men.  In the former, Phoenix is a being of pure evil, stealing Jean's life for purely selfish motives.  In the latter, Phoenix is benevolent, and offers Jean a chance to live.  In Byrne's version, Phoenix was deluded into thinking she/it was Jean.  In Claremont's, Phoenix *was* Jean in every meaningful sense.

Notice that by explaining Jean's return as her never having been Phoenix at all, it toally invalidates the most gripping and popular story Claremont had written to date.  How can you doubt that it was done in spite?

Second, what was going through the editors' heads was the huge spike in sales they would see by allowing this story that no one ever thought would come to pass.  Jean was as dead as Bucky before that, and Byrne's version allowed them to bring her back without losing face for saying she would never be resurrected.  That it also meant screwing over Claremont was a shame, but their priority isn't to worry about their writers' feelings, it's to sell books.

As to whether it was sure that Maddie was Jean/Phoenix, I've never heard this.  Do you have a cite, or is this just your gut feeling?  It seemed prety clear to me that Maddie was definitely *not* Jean, based on X-Men 175.  Claremont's original plan, before Byrne and Shooter killed Phoenix, was that Jean and Scott would be wed in issue 175, and Rachel would be born in 200.  The story in 150 was to have been Magneto offering Jean her power back, and her refusing.  Once these long term goals were shot, it's anyone's guess what he really intended for issue 200, but I see no evidence of anything leading up to a revelation that Maddie was Jean.  Can you point to anything that could be construed as foreshadowing between 175 and 200?  If anything, the issues leading up to 200 are so focused on Magneto that it would have been strange if he had not gone with a big Magneto story.

As for the timing, the issues of Avengers and FF in question came out the same month as (or within one month of) X-Men 200.  It hardly seems likely that Marvel would have chosen one resurrection story over the other if they had been proposed at the same time.  If anything, one would think that having Jean return in the pages of X-Men would make more sense and sell more comics.

While I'm sure Claremont had some great plans that were royally hosed by Byrne's stupid gimmick, I really doubt those plans included revealing that Maddie was Jean.  I could be wrong, but it just seems like the time to do that would have been 175, and when it didn't happen then, I assumed it never would (it broke my heart, by the way -- I was so sure ...).  Clearly, he never intended Maddie to end up the evil monster she became.  I can't imagine a worse thing to happen to a chacter that I created than being forced to retcon her into a clone with implanted memories.  It seemed to me that he was still trying to salvage some dignity for the character when he had her join the X-Men, and it must have crushed him when the word came down that she had to go.

As for Jean being dull, well, I thought she was very interesting when Claremont wrote her, and she was struggling with the burden of being cosmically powered.  It's too bad that Byrne had to be so petty as bring her back in a way that would insure she could never be interesting again.

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Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on June 24, 2003 at 09:39:01:
In Reply to: Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
posted by Jeph! on June 23, 2003 at 21:17:23:

> > Since "Nate resurrects Madelyne" sounds potentially more unlikely to me than "powerful Maddie from other world arrives and lets Nate believe that he resurrected Madelyne," I'm more inclined to go with something like your explanation.

> Except what we end up with is "powerful Jean from another world impersonates Maddy, mainpulates Nate to make her think that she IS our Maddy for a very long time, and abandons her true body to live inside one made out of psychic energy".

No, I think it's simpler.  "Powerful Jean from another world lets Nate think that he recreated Maddie in order to worm herself into his head and distract him from her actual plans."

As for the body question, see my other posts: Since we don't know that Queen Maddie's body was still human flesh and blood, we don't know that she had to leave it to impersonate Madelyne.

Marc-Oliver Frisch

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Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
Posted by Jeph! on June 23, 2003 at 16:57:14:
In Reply to: Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
posted by Don Campbell on June 23, 2003 at 12:35:09:

> I believe that both origins have some validity.  I think that Nate DID recreate "our" Maddie but that he was secretly compelled to do so by the evil alternate Jean

Marc-Oliver's quotes seem to back this up, and I agree.  Even in X-Man #5, Nate's original motivation for bringing back Maddy -- suddenly thinking of Jean -- is written as coming completely out of the blue.  (see p.15)

> so that the new Maddie's body would serve as a doorway through which evil Jean could enter Earth-616.  I also think that, at the moment of Maddie's recreation, evil Jean somehow merged her being/essence with Nate's construct

Now, THIS is what I don't understand.  Obviously evil Jean HAD a body.  She wasn't an entity of pure psychic energy like Onslaught.  So why would she go to the trouble of having Nate CREATE A NEW BODY, and placing her ESSENCE into it?  Especially a new body that still has vestiges of memories from its original owner?

That part of the storyline I just don't get.  Is this evil Jean's only method of hopping dimensions?  Seems awakward, and I don't understand (a) why she couldn't just come here IN PERSON to meet Nate and (b) what happened to her body on Earth-998 when/if she merged her essence with the Maddy construct on 616.

> so that the recreated Maddie was always really a combination of two entities

What you're saying is, she's a combinant entity.  Therefore, this version of Maddy Pryor should be listed under the ORIGINAL Maddy either way (if I'm right or if you're right) -- and possibly ALSO listed as evil Jean, if you're right.

> In my opinion, the merged Maddie/Jean being changed over time.

Any in-book evidence for that?

> Eventually, evil Jean took it over completely, expelling the recreated Maddie's consciousness (enabling her to appear as a ghost to Cable) while transforming the body back into her original, flesh-and-blood form.

Which returns me to my question of, what happened to evil Jean's ORIGINAL body?  The one on Earth-998 that she projected OUT of, to merge with the psionic constrcut that Nate created?

More evidence that Maddy is a psionically-constrcuted form, by the way: my previous mention of her not bleeding until she noticed her wound in X-Man #14 is followed up by a scene in #15 where the wound is mysteriously completely healed.

> First, if you're right that the evil Jean only appeared as Maddie in X-MAN #67-70, then those issues should NOT be listed as part of "our" Maddie's chronology.  Instead, there should be a totally separate entry for this "other" Maddie, right?

Absolutely, yes.

> And what name would she be listed under?

Grey, Jean (alternate universe).  Folks IMPERSONATING other folks don't get listed under any name but their own.

'Course, if she's a combinant entity from X-Man #5-52, she'd just get BTS listings for those issues, whereas Maddy would get full listings.  In my opinion.

> I can't say that I totally accept the idea that Nate could have recreated "our" Maddie in the first place.  Part of it has to do with the fact that Terry Kavanaugh wrote those stories.

Actually, that's my mistake, but he didn't -- Jeph Loeb wrote X-Man #5-9, and John Ostrander wrote #10-13.  Ostrander plotted #14 and co-plotted #15, with Kavanagh on script -- and Kavanagh took over with full plots with #16.

So, Loeb came up with the notion of bringing Maddy back, and Ostrander plotted the scene where Maddy cuts herself and doesn't bleed.

> I generally like his stories but they often seem rather gimmicky and implausible and that may be prejudicing me against accepting his origin for Maddie completely.

Well, since it's not HIS origin, how do you feel now?  :-)

(Personally, by the way, I HATE Kavanagh.)

> Maddie's consciousness (or a copy of it) remained within her mind and made several attempts to take control of her body before Jean was finally able to expell Maddie's personality (but not her memories).  Given that Madelyne's personality and memories were transferred into Jean's mind as she died, the idea that Maddie's memories and soul were somehow lying scattered around the Earth, just waiting for Nate Grey to gather them together, seems rather unlikely to me...

You said it yourself -- Jean "expelled" Maddy's personality -- meaning, there's a good chance that it may have floated about disembodied after that.  And the reborn Maddy had some serious amnesia problems initially, which would jibe with Jean having kept many of Maddy's memories.

> probably as unlikely as the idea that Nate's Maddie was always really the evil alternate Jean seems to you.

Probably.  :-)

Sadly, I'm hampered by a lack of many of the relevant issues -- but I'd be satisfied with the agreement that from X-Man #5-52, maddy was a combinant entity -- that in Cable #76, it was JUST Maddy, and in X-Man #67-70, it was JUST evil Jean.

-Jeph!

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Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on June 24, 2003 at 09:38:53:
In Reply to: Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
posted by Jeph! on June 23, 2003 at 16:57:14:

> > so that the new Maddie's body would serve as a doorway through which evil Jean could enter Earth-616.  I also think that, at the moment of Maddie's recreation, evil Jean somehow merged her being/essence with Nate's construct

> Now, THIS is what I don't understand.  Obviously evil Jean HAD a body.  She wasn't an entity of pure psychic energy like Onslaught.  So why would she go to the trouble of having Nate CREATE A NEW BODY, and placing her ESSENCE into it?  Especially a new body that still has vestiges of memories from its original owner?

Hmm... I don't think there is a new body involved.  As I said in the other post, I understood that it's always been Queen Maddie's body.

Where in the books does this "new body" stuff come from?

> > so that the recreated Maddie was always really a combination of two entities

> What you're saying is, she's a combinant entity.  Therefore, this version of Maddy Pryor should be listed under the ORIGINAL Maddy either way (if I'm right or if you're right) -- and possibly ALSO listed as evil Jean, if you're right.

Well, I think she was a combinant entity in the sense that she consisted of Queen Maddie and Medelyne's ECHO ON THE PSIONIC PLANE, as opposed to Madelyne herself.

So I wouldn't list it under the original Madelyne.

> > In my opinion, the merged Maddie/Jean being changed over time.

> Any in-book evidence for that?

Well, since it's a retcon, all the evidence we have is the Counter X issues, of course.  In #68, she says: "From the beginning, I was there, sowing the idea of me in your head.  You made a dream and I stepped in to flesh it out.  For a time I was only what you dreamed I should be.  A necessary risk, to snare you."

> > Eventually, evil Jean took it over completely, expelling the recreated Maddie's consciousness (enabling her to appear as a ghost to Cable) while transforming the body back into her original, flesh-and-blood form.

> Which returns me to my question of, what happened to evil Jean's ORIGINAL body?  The one on Earth-998 that she projected OUT of, to merge with the psionic constrcut that Nate created?

Again, unless I missed something there, I'd say she was in her real body all along in X-MAN.

> More evidence that Maddy is a psionically-constrcuted form, by the way: my previous mention of her not bleeding until she noticed her wound in X-Man #14 is followed up by a scene in #15 where the wound is mysteriously completely healed.

If you view this as a contradiction, that presumes that Queen Maddie herself has a regular human body.  I don't think we know that, though.

Marc-Oliver Frisch

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Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on June 23, 2003 at 15:29:00:
In Reply to: Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
posted by Jeph! on June 23, 2003 at 00:20:51:

> Okay, this alternate claims to have suppressed her own memories -- but in X-Man #6, the newly-reborn Maddy is shown remembering bits of her past -- specifically, Havok.  And in X-Man #20 or so, when Maddy's hand is cut, she doesn't start to bleed until she notices and realizes she SHOULD be bleeding.

> Both of these clues -- and others that I can't currently recall -- strongly back up Kavanagh's original premise, that Maddy's memories and soul were subconscioualy gathered from the four corners of the earth and re-created by Nate, in a body not of flesh and blood, but of pure psionic energy.

In X-MAN #68, Queen Maddie claims that the "whim" on which Nate (re)created Madelyne Pryor came from her, that Nate "made a dream" and she "stepped in to flesh it out."

Further, she states that, "for a time, [she] was only what [Nate] dreamed [she] should be."

I think that covers why she would have remembered the original Madelyne's life: She took the "backseat" in the construct she'd inspired and helped Nate to create at first, before she fully "stepped in."

This would also be the only way in which what's being said in #67 makes any sense: "I'm Madelyne Pryor.  The only true Maddie Pryor you've ever known.  I replaced your Maddie several months ago."

So my stance is that all of the accounts in the book are correct, which means that the original Madelyne's last appearance was indeed in "Inferno": The Madelyne in X-MAN was always the "Queen Maddie" character, albeit allowing herself to be dominated by the original Madelyne's "psionic echo" for a time.

> In X-Man #52, Maddy is severely depleted and wounded, and teleports away.  The next time she is seen in the pages of X-Man is in #67-70, revealing that she's an alternate Jean.  In-between those two issues, Maddy makes an appearance in Cable #76, incongruously claiming to now be only a ghost on the psionic plane.

I didn't take this as a literal comment at the time.  I rather assumed that she just meant that she was merely a ghost on the psionic plane IN THAT PARTICULAR APPEARANCE -- meaning that her physical body was somewhere else at the time she "encountered" Cyclops and Cable.

> The inference that I and many fans have taken from this is: the Maddy from X-Man #5-52 WAS INDEED "our" Maddy, truly recreated by Nate.  Sometime between X-Man #52 and Cable #76, when she was weakened, she was attacked, killed (or dispersed) and replaced by the evil alternate Jean, who went on to appear in X-Man #67-70.  This would explain Maddy's appearance as a "ghost" in Cable #76, and allow Kavanagh's many hints that Maddy WAS Maddy to stand, while allowing the majority of evil Jean's plan and allegations to still stand as well.  Her claims to have ALWAYS been Nate's "Maddy" don't jibe at all with what we saw of her in those early issues of X-Man.

Well, see above for a possible explanation.

I realize we're skating on thin ice here anyway, since all information regarding the "Queen Maddie" character comes from an unreliable source.

However, I don't find her account any more implausible than the notion that Nate may actually have brought the original Madelyne back from the dead, so I'm in favor of going with the explanation which doesn't contradict too much information in the book.

Unless there are any holes in my reasoning that I'm missing, I think that's the one presented above.

Marc-Oliver Frisch

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Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
Posted by Jeph! on June 23, 2003 at 20:31:44:
In Reply to: Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on June 23, 2003 at 15:29:00:

> This would also be the only way in which what's being said in #67 makes any sense: "I'm Madelyne Pryor.  The only true Maddie Pryor you've ever known.  I replaced your Maddie several months ago."

This statement is inherently contradictory, though.  If evil-Jean "replaced" Nate's Maddy, then by definiton she couldn't have been Nate's Maddy right from the beginning.  Which is it?

Besides, she's lying on another point of that quote, the very first sentence.  She's NOT Maddy Pryor -- she's Jean Grey.

She contradicts herself and she lies.  I wouldn't put too much stock in this quote.

> The Madelyne in X-MAN was always the "Queen Maddie" character, albeit allowing herself to be dominated by the original Madelyne's "psionic echo" for a time.

Which begs the question, why on earth would she DO that?  Why allow -- nay, force -- Nate to load her up with false and confusing memories?  That's no way to build a power base.

> I rather assumed that she just meant that she was merely a ghost on the psionic plane IN THAT PARTICULAR APPEARANCE -- meaning that her physical body was somewhere else at the time she "encountered" Cyclops and Cable.

Well, then she would have just said "I'm on the psionic plane" -- not "I'm a GHOST on the psionic plane".

And if she was evil-Jean, why would she care about helping Scott and Cable anyway?  Ever?

I just don't understand why evil-Jean's plan was so convoluted.  She couldn't just pop into our world, introduce herself to Nate, claim the amnesia that Nate's Maddy actually HAD, then set off on her own as her own woman?

Why did she need someone else to make her a new body?  What happened to her REAL body when she allegedly "stepped in" to this one?  Why bother having Nate give her new body partial memories from the real Maddy?

I think the simplest explanation is the truth: Steven Grant wrote a particularly clunky retcon, one that doesn't jibe with Madelyne's characterization, personality, or internal monologue from issues #5-52, makes only the braodest brushstrokes possible to cover its many inconsistencies, and doesn't even fit eith evil-Jean's mode of operation.

Personally, the notion that evil-Jean killed and replaced Nate's creation sometime between #52 and #67 is more appealing to me, as it explains her "ghost" comment in Cable #76 and gives evil-Jean a much more plausible MO: give Nate someone that gets close to him, then take her place and abuse his power.  No mucking about with combinant entities and projecting into psychically-created forms.

Isn't it bad enough that we've got an evil version of Jean Grey posing as Maddy Pryor-998, posing as Maddy Pryor-616?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on June 24, 2003 at 09:38:45:
In Reply to: Re: Multiple Maddie Pryors
posted by Jeph! on June 23, 2003 at 20:31:44:

> > This would also be the only way in which what's being said in #67 makes any sense: "I'm Madelyne Pryor.  The only true Maddie Pryor you've ever known.  I replaced your Maddie several months ago."

> This statement is inherently contradictory, though.  If evil-Jean "replaced" Nate's Maddy, then by definiton she couldn't have been Nate's Maddy right from the beginning.  Which is it?

No, that's what I tried to get at: It explains her later comments, in which she states that she allowed the "Madelyne" Nate WANTED her to be to be dominant for a while.  What she refers to as "replacement" was the moment when she consciously took control. 

> Besides, she's lying on another point of that quote, the very first sentence.  She's NOT Maddy Pryor -- she's Jean Grey.

But she essentially a) became Madelyne Pryor in the parallel earth she ruled at the time, and b), as she says, she is the only Madelyne Pryor Nate has ever known.

> > The Madelyne in X-MAN was always the "Queen Maddie" character, albeit allowing herself to be dominated by the original Madelyne's "psionic echo" for a time.

> Which begs the question, why on earth would she DO that?  Why allow -- nay, force -- Nate to load her up with false and confusing memories?  That's no way to build a power base.

That's covered in the book as well.  Right after the lines I quoted above, she states that she's been "worming herself" into Nate's head.  So the charade makes sense.

> > I rather assumed that she just meant that she was merely a ghost on the psionic plane IN THAT PARTICULAR APPEARANCE -- meaning that her physical body was somewhere else at the time she "encountered" Cyclops and Cable.

> Well, then she would have just said "I'm on the psionic plane" -- not "I'm a GHOST on the psionic plane".

I don't think it's helpful to speculate what characters "would have said" in such cases, since what that depends on the given writer, anyway.

I think it suffices to acknowledge that there are more interpretations of the comment that she's "merely a ghost on the psionic plane" than the literal one.  Unless you're of the opinion that it's entirely absurd for a character to claim that they're "merely a ghost on the psionic plane" when they mean that they have temporarily left their body, that's clearly the case, so it eliminates the quote as a contradiction.

> And if she was evil-Jean, why would she care about helping Scott and Cable anyway?  Ever?

Because that was during a time when "evil-Jean" was in the backseat.

> I just don't understand why evil-Jean's plan was so convoluted.  She couldn't just pop into our world, introduce herself to Nate, claim the amnesia that Nate's Maddy actually HAD, then set off on her own as her own woman?

But that probably wouldn't have been as convincing -- remember that Nate was one of the most powerful telepaths around.

> Why did she need someone else to make her a new body?  What happened to her REAL body when she allegedly "stepped in" to this one?  Why bother having Nate give her new body partial memories from the real Maddy?

I don't think there was a new body.  As I understand it, it was Queen Maddie's body all along -- she just allowed Madelyne's eco to take charge of it for a while.

> I think the simplest explanation is the truth: Steven Grant wrote a particularly clunky retcon, one that doesn't jibe with Madelyne's characterization, personality, or internal monologue from issues #5-52, makes only the braodest brushstrokes possible to cover its many inconsistencies, and doesn't even fit eith evil-Jean's mode of operation.

Well, I think there only are inconsistencies if you take everything Madelyne says literally and at face value, which I wouldn't do, and I actually believe that Grant's retcon makes more sense than whatever may have been planned previously.

> Personally, the notion that evil-Jean killed and replaced Nate's creation sometime between #52 and #67 is more appealing to me, as it explains her "ghost" comment in Cable #76 and gives evil-Jean a much more plausible MO: give Nate someone that gets close to him, then take her place and abuse his power.  No mucking about with combinant entities and projecting into psychically-created forms.

Yes, but it's inconsistent with the comments in Counter X.  In my version -- providing that you agree with the notion that you don't need to take the "ghost" or "replacement" comments literally, of course -- there aren't any inconsistencies.

> Isn't it bad enough that we've got an evil version of Jean Grey posing as Maddy Pryor-998, posing as Maddy Pryor-616?

Undoubtedly.  I just generally try to make sense of things in a way which (a) contradicts as few scenes in the books as possible and (b) adds nothing which isn't there in the original material.

That it may ultimately be a crappy story is Marvel's fault.

Marc-Oliver Frisch

			*	*	*

X-Men vs. Brood: Day of Wrath analysis
Posted by Sean Curtin on June 21, 2003 at 09:35:26:

X-MEN VS. BROOD: DAY OF WRATH #1-2 (Sept.-Oct. '96)

This series has to take place shortly before X 50, given the makeup of the team; since it was published a few months after X 50, I've placed it immediately before X 50.

#1 (Sep '96)
characters:
Conover, Hannah (also in -FB to previous appearances)
Phoenix/Jean Grey
Cyclops
Grey, Dr. John
Grey, Elaine
Bailey, Galen
Bailey, Joey
Professor X
Storm
Cannonball
Bishop
Wolverine
Beast
Iceman
Conover, Reverend William (also in -FB to previous appearances)
Thomas, Josey (also in -FB; dies)

Synopsis: Hannah Conover has been infected with a Brood Queen embryo for years, and has suppressed its corruption. Her husband, a devout reverend, has been using her Brood-derived powers to heal their congregation, believing it to be the work of God, unaware that the process is transforming those healed into human/Brood hybrids--a revelation that later gives Reverend William a crisis of faith. The Brood send a war party to kill Conover and her "offspring", and the X-Men come to her aid--but she wants them all to kill her and her creations, and Wolverine is ready to do the job.

#2 (Oct '96)
characters:
Conover, Reverend William (next in issues of PUN3)
Conover, Hannah
Wolverine
Cyclops
Storm
Iceman
Phoenix/Jean Grey
Beast
Bishop
Cannonball
Professor X

Synposis: Conover's Brood mutates (none are named) throw their lives away to save their "mother" from both X-Men and Brood; thanks to their somewhat misdirected sacrifice, the X-Men are able to save the Conovers, defeat the Brood landing party, and convince Hannah not to kill herself. They place Hannah in suspended animation in the X-Mansion, and never refer to her again. William overcomes his crisis of faith and goes on to become an ardent supporter of mutant rights.


Updated chronologies:

BAILEY, GALEN
XF 35
XF 40
X 30
**BROOD 1
X 51
...

BAILEY, JOEY
XF 35
XF 40
**X 30
**BROOD 1
X 51
...

BEAST/DR. HENRY "HANK" MCCOY
...
UX 330
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
X 50
...

BISHOP/LUCAS
...
X 49
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
X 50
...

CANNONBALL/SAMUEL "SAM" GUTHRIE
...
XU 10
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
X 50
...

**CONOVER, HANNAH
UX 232
UX 233
BROOD 1
BROOD 2

**CONOVER, REV. WILLIAM
UX 232
UX 233
BROOD 1
BROOD 2
(next appeared in PUN3)

CYCLOPS/SCOTT SUMMERS
...
XU 10
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
X 50
...

GREY, DR. JOHN
...
UX 322
**BROOD 1
X 51
...

GREY, ELAINE
...
XF 40
**BROOD 1
X 51
...

ICEMAN/ROBERT "BOBBY" DRAKE
...
XU 10
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
X 50
...

PHOENIX/JEAN GREY SUMMERS
...
C2 31
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
X 50
...

PROFESSOR X/PROF. CHARLES XAVIER
...
XU 10
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
X 50
...

STORM/ORORO MUNROE
...
C2 29
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
X 50
...

THOMAS, JOSEY
**BROOD 1-FB (may be a flashback to of UXM 232-233? don't have those issues, so I don't know for sure)
**BROOD 1

WOLVERINE/"LOGAN"/JAMES HOWLETT
...
UX 330
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
X 50
...

-- 
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Sunspot/Reignfire
Posted by Mithrandir on June 21, 2003 at 16:42:18:

Could someone explain to me the whole deal with Sunspot and Reignfire?  I remember that just prior to Age of Apocalypse Reignfire was revealed to have been Sunspot, but after AoA Susnpot seems to be right back on X-Force with only vague reference to "that Reignfire business."

I have consulted a few websites and learned that A) Sunspot and Reignfire were never actually the the same person and B) Cable managed to break the mental link between the two with his telepathy.  What I can't find out is in what issues these events happened.  When (i.e. what issues) did Cable actually free Sunspot and when were Reignfire's true origins revealed?  Was there actually an extended period in which Sunspot was believed to have been Reignfire or was this all cleared up pretty quickly?  The issues I have imply that there was no explanation given for Bobby's "redemption" from being Reignfire right after AoA but maybe I'm missing something, as that was a period where I wasn't collecting very heavily.

			*	*	*

Re: Sunspot/Reignfire
Posted by Jeph! on June 22, 2003 at 16:00:08:
In Reply to: Sunspot/Reignfire
posted by Mithrandir on June 21, 2003 at 16:42:18:

> Could someone explain to me the whole deal with Sunspot and Reignfire?

I can try...

> When (i.e. what issues) did Cable actually free Sunspot

It was never shown on-panel.  It occured in the two-week gap between X-Force #43-44 (all the X-books jumped ahead two weeks with "X-Men Prime" and the return from the AoA storyline).

> when were Reignfire's true origins revealed?

X-Force #78-80, I believe.

> Was there actually an extended period in which Sunspot was believed to have been Reignfire or was this all cleared up pretty quickly?

Well, in Reignfire's original appearances, he actually FOUGHT Bobby -- the two were obviously separat entities, so nobody thought he WAS him at that point.

That storyline ended, I believe, with Bobby getting lost in some sort of spatial warp.  The team searched for him for quite some time with no luck.  Then, with X-Force Annual #3, hints began to be dropped that Reignfire WAS Sunspot -- somehow gone bad.

In X-Force #43, it was "revealed" that Reignfire WAS Sunspot -- that after being lost in Locus' warp, he turned evil, actually travelled back in time, and took the name Reignfire.

So, to answer your question, it was only from X-Force #43-77 -- AFTER the fact -- that Bobby was believed to have been Reignfire.

>The issues I have imply that there was no explanation given for Bobby's "redemption" from being Reignfire right after AoA

No real "explanation", other than references to Cable using his telepathy to cut the "Reignfire" personality out of Bobby's brain -- new writer Jeph Loeb took the tack that Bobby had been temporarily deranged, rather than evil.

And later on, John Francis Moore took the tack that Reignfire was a separate entity, in part BASED on Bobby, that was telepathically controlling him like a puppet the whole time.  However, there's been no word on whether Bobby actually DID travel back in time -- and it's unsure if the appearances of Reignfire in X-Force #28-30 are the separate entity itself (making the time-travel story a lie), or Bobby's time-travelled body being possessed by the entity.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Sunspot/Reignfire
Posted by Mithrandir on June 23, 2003 at 16:32:41:
In Reply to: Re: Sunspot/Reignfire
posted by Jeph! on June 22, 2003 at 16:00:08:

> > Could someone explain to me the whole deal with Sunspot and Reignfire?

> I can try...

> > When (i.e. what issues) did Cable actually free Sunspot

> It was never shown on-panel.  It occured in the two-week gap between X-Force #43-44 (all the X-books jumped ahead two weeks with "X-Men Prime" and the return from the AoA storyline).

Yes, I unfortunately thoght this might be the case.  I remember really liking AoA at the time and then wondering why it had to be accompanied by gaps in the "real" books storylines.  This was particularly annoying considering how many of them had ended in cliffhangers.  To me it always seemed like the smart thing to do would have been to pick up right where they'd left off.

> > when were Reignfire's true origins revealed?

> X-Force #78-80, I believe.

> > Was there actually an extended period in which Sunspot was believed to have been Reignfire or was this all cleared up pretty quickly?

> Well, in Reignfire's original appearances, he actually FOUGHT Bobby -- the two were obviously separat entities, so nobody thought he WAS him at that point.

> That storyline ended, I believe, with Bobby getting lost in some sort of spatial warp.  The team searched for him for quite some time with no luck.  Then, with X-Force Annual #3, hints began to be dropped that Reignfire WAS Sunspot -- somehow gone bad.

> In X-Force #43, it was "revealed" that Reignfire WAS Sunspot -- that after being lost in Locus' warp, he turned evil, actually travelled back in time, and took the name Reignfire.

Yes, I remember this.  I actually thought it was an interesting storyline until it was given the "two week gap" treatment.

> So, to answer your question, it was only from X-Force #43-77 -- AFTER the fact -- that Bobby was believed to have been Reignfire.

> >The issues I have imply that there was no explanation given for Bobby's "redemption" from being Reignfire right after AoA

> No real "explanation", other than references to Cable using his telepathy to cut the "Reignfire" personality out of Bobby's brain -- new writer Jeph Loeb took the tack that Bobby had been temporarily deranged, rather than evil.

That's pretty dissappointing, really, but oh well.

> And later on, John Francis Moore took the tack that Reignfire was a separate entity, in part BASED on Bobby, that was telepathically controlling him like a puppet the whole time.  However, there's been no word on whether Bobby actually DID travel back in time -- and it's unsure if the appearances of Reignfire in X-Force #28-30 are the separate entity itself (making the time-travel story a lie), or Bobby's time-travelled body being possessed by the entity.

I see.

			*	*	*

PUNISHER II...PUPPET MASTER...DR. NOAH PURL
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 22, 2003 at 08:21:02:

new entries marked **

PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE"
PPTSS 78
**PPTSS 79
PPTSS 81

..  ..  ..  ..  .. 

UX 272
** FF349   Unnamed; does a fly-by over monster island on the last page. 

  As Punishers interview in UX 272 is pretty close in time to Mr. Fantastics interview in the same issue, and that precedes FF 349 in Reeds chronology, I place this after Punishers UX 272 appearance. 

  Spideys frolic with the FF in FF 349 occurs before his meeting Firestar in WOSM 75, which is prior to her appearance in the NW 7-9 arc. So the FF349 appearance lies on this side of NW 7.  

Before or after PUN2 44?  To be honest, I have no idea.  At the end of  FF 349 he mentions that hes off to Medellin, Columbia.  In PUN2 44 hes in his van in Iowa to get away from the war. In NW 8, he tells us that he has been after Silhouete (NW 8)  relating to something that happened a few months ago.    

PUN2 44
NW 7
NW 8

PUPPET MASTER/PHILLIP MASTERS
ST 126
**ST 133
ST 134  (I think this may have been a typo for ST 133; I do not see Puppet Master here.) 
FF@ 3

..  ..  ..  ..  .. 
FF 246
**M/TALES 198/2-BTS  (Puppet Master controls the Thing from off-panel and compels him to attack Spider-man)
TG 5

PURL, DR. NOAH
WOSM 119
ASMSS 1/3
**VSS 1/2
PPTSSSS 1/3
WOSMSS 1/3

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#97

			*	*	*

Re: PUNISHER II...PUPPET MASTER...DR. NOAH PURL
Posted by Jeph! on June 22, 2003 at 16:02:14:
In Reply to: PUNISHER II...PUPPET MASTER...DR. NOAH PURL
posted by Arthur Stein on June 22, 2003 at 08:21:02:

> #97

Comin' up on #100, there ... keep up the good work.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

thank you
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 23, 2003 at 07:29:49:
In Reply to: Re: PUNISHER II...PUPPET MASTER...DR. NOAH PURL
posted by Jeph! on June 22, 2003 at 16:02:14:

> > #97

> Comin' up on #100, there ... keep up the good work.

Thanks for the encouragement Jeph!  It is so much more time consuming than I had anticipated, yet so compelling. I'm glad I set myself an artificial schedule (1 post every 4 days) or else this could REALLY stretch out... been over a year now since I started... and it looks like another year might be in order!

			*	*	*

Re: PUNISHER II...PUPPET MASTER...DR. NOAH PURL
Posted by DCW3 on June 22, 2003 at 17:22:28:
In Reply to: PUNISHER II...PUPPET MASTER...DR. NOAH PURL
posted by Arthur Stein on June 22, 2003 at 08:21:02:

The Punisher also appears in UX 341 (pg. 4, panel 2). I'm afraid I don't know enough about the Punisher's chronology to guess where it might be placed.

			*	*	*

ADDITIONS
Posted by captamr on June 23, 2003 at 10:14:18:

A one panel Avengers cameo in FF 285 shows Jarvis answering the phone at Avengers mansion as Hercules and the Wasp look on (pg. 8), accounting for his appearance. The other two are omitted (probably because they have no speaking part). Their corrected listings:

HERCULES (Greek God)  and  WASP/ Janet Van Dyne
A 261
SWII 5
FF 285**
A 262

Nightcrawler also appears in Heroes for Hope and SWII 7:

NIGHTCRAWLER
UX 200
UX 201
HOPE 1**
SWII 7**
UX 202
UX 204

And finally, Rachel Summers places a part of her essence in the holempathic crystal possessed by Jean Greys parents in UX 201. The crystal plays a major role in Jean Greys rebirth  and later story lines. Jean mentions the presence of another persona in FF 286.  Perhaps a BTS is recommended here:

PHOENIX III/ Rachel Summers
UX 200
UX 201
FF 286  BTS**
AF 33
HOPE 1

Charlie

			*	*	*

Howard the Duck
Posted by Scott on June 23, 2003 at 11:52:33:

He has an unlisted one page cameo in MTIO #46.  He is identified as "Uncle Waddles," hosting a children's show, but continuity-wise, he could only be Howard.

			*	*	*

[New] X-Men & New Mutants (Vol. 2) #2
Posted by Aaron Stanley on June 25, 2003 at 13:31:49:

I've noticed that in New X-Men #139, the Stepford Cuckoos mention that school is out for the summer. I've also noticed that in the second issue of New Mutants (Vol. 2), Xavier states that the school is out, but some students are staying for the "summer term". SO, wouldn't that mean that New Mutants #2 and New x-Men #139 take place at roughly the same time? (Myself, I'd put New Mutants #2 AFTER the "Murder at the Mansion" story arc)

			*	*	*

Re: [New] X-Men & New Mutants (Vol. 2) #2
Posted by Jeph! on June 25, 2003 at 15:48:15:
In Reply to: [New] X-Men & New Mutants (Vol. 2) #2
posted by Aaron Stanley on June 25, 2003 at 13:31:49:

Yep -- that's pretty much exactly what that means.  Good eye.

Poor Paul B., though, who was theorizing that this was "really" some kind of fall or winter break...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: [New] X-Men & New Mutants (Vol. 2) #2
Posted by Paul Bourcier on June 25, 2003 at 21:33:05:
In Reply to: Re: [New] X-Men & New Mutants (Vol. 2) #2
posted by Jeph! on June 25, 2003 at 15:48:15:

> Yep -- that's pretty much exactly what that means.  Good eye.

> Poor Paul B., though, who was theorizing that this was "really" some kind of fall or winter break...

I'm still theorizing that placement, while gritting my teeth.  The reference to "summer session" in New Mutants vol.2 #2 indicates a consistent relative placement vis-a-vis issues of New X-Men, but I'm not at the point of inserting several months of nothing to make the summer references work, especially when other, previous references don't stack up with the summer references.  I'm sticking to the notion of "topical reference" for the time being (especially given that, from our perspective in the real world, it IS the start of summer season).  Here are my current calendar notes for NM2 2, which I place on Saturday, Nov. 16:

NEW MUTANTS v2 #2
The day after NM2 1 (10-25).  NM2 2-FB is noted as having occurred last year, although this may be a reference to last school year.  Dani and Sofia arrive at Xaviers, where they meet Professor X, who notes that it is the start of the summer session and that some students have gone home for the summer.  This is an indication that this issue occurs after the supposed, postponed summer closing of X 140-141.  The fact that some students remain for classes appears to contradict the statement in X 138 (10-14) that the school would close for the summer.  Xavier is still here, apparently before the time he planned to leave the school, as noted in X 138 (10-14).  And we do have confirmation that classes do not observe a conventional schedule, as it must be Saturday, since NM2 1 (10-25) is noted as having occurred yesterday.  Dani is no longer a teenager, but it wasnt long ago that she was.  Dani arranges for Sofia to room with Laurie Collins and agrees to be Xaviers recruiter.  Northstar appears here.  Green grass and trees and jacket weather at Xaviers.

See, I'm not a slave to all temporal references.  As you've noted in the past, they can't all work ;)

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: [New] X-Men & New Mutants (Vol. 2) #2 (and, just added, New X-Men #142)
Posted by Aaron Stanley on June 25, 2003 at 21:57:30:
In Reply to: Re: [New] X-Men & New Mutants (Vol. 2) #2
posted by Paul Bourcier on June 25, 2003 at 21:33:05:

ERR, yeah...bit to complicated for me...I'm just trying to help out. And in the most current issue of New X-Men #142, Wolverine mentions (the Arnhem Land in 1943, when looking at a picture. quick search shows that the Arnhem land was a refueling station in the pacific, specifically, Australia, so, Wolverine was there before all appearanes post-1943 (I.e. all mentions of being in Normandy, Holland, Belgium, and other stages of the European theatre in WW2

			*	*	*

Re: [New] X-Men & New Mutants (Vol. 2) #2 (and, just added, New X-Men #142)
Posted by Jeph! on June 26, 2003 at 10:12:23:
In Reply to: Re: [New] X-Men & New Mutants (Vol. 2) #2 (and, just added, New X-Men #142)
posted by Aaron Stanley on June 25, 2003 at 21:57:30:

Yep -- but since we don't actually see a FLASHBACK of Wolverine in Arnhem Land, there's nothing to add into his chronology.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: [New] X-Men & New Mutants (Vol. 2) #2
Posted by Kevin  on June 26, 2003 at 17:05:52:
In Reply to: Re: [New] X-Men & New Mutants (Vol. 2) #2
posted by Paul Bourcier on June 25, 2003 at 21:33:05:

> I'm still theorizing that placement, while gritting my teeth.  The reference to "summer session" in New Mutants vol.2 #2 indicates a consistent relative placement vis-a-vis issues of New X-Men, but I'm not at the point of inserting several months of nothing to make the summer references work, especially when other, previous references don't stack up with the summer references.  I'm sticking to the notion of "topical reference" for the time being (especially given that, from our perspective in the real world, it IS the start of summer season).  Here are my current calendar notes for NM2 2, which I place on Saturday, Nov. 16:

> NEW MUTANTS v2 #2
> The day after NM2 1 (10-25).  NM2 2-FB is noted as having occurred last year, although this may be a reference to last school year.  Dani and Sofia arrive at Xaviers, where they meet Professor X, who notes that it is the start of the summer session and that some students have gone home for the summer.  This is an indication that this issue occurs after the supposed, postponed summer closing of X 140-141.  The fact that some students remain for classes appears to contradict the statement in X 138 (10-14) that the school would close for the summer.  Xavier is still here, apparently before the time he planned to leave the school, as noted in X 138 (10-14).  And we do have confirmation that classes do not observe a conventional schedule, as it must be Saturday, since NM2 1 (10-25) is noted as having occurred yesterday.  Dani is no longer a teenager, but it wasnt long ago that she was.  Dani arranges for Sofia to room with Laurie Collins and agrees to be Xaviers recruiter.  Northstar appears here.  Green grass and trees and jacket weather at Xaviers.

> See, I'm not a slave to all temporal references.  As you've noted in the past, they can't all work ;)

I too am wary of comics that say "Schools Out" and "It's time for Summer Break" when published in the same month as when school's out in real life.  They have such references every year, (didn't we see similar references in ASM or PP:SM last year?)  It becomes a yearly event, much like the Christmas and Halloween specials we see.  Since it's obvious Marvel Time passes slower than real time, on a calender basis, your simply going to have to look over some references like that.

Still, in New Mutants Vol. 2, Issue 1, wasn't the first part references as happening "7 months ago?" or something like that?  I don't have my issue in front of me...it's an obvious reference to the riots in Venezeula that happened last November/December.  Which would obviously place this stuff that happened over the next few months as ending in the "Present day" of May or June, when school's let out.

But I guess the obvious loophole for that is to say the "7 months ago" riots took place in the Summer, (even though in real life they happened in Fall/Winter) and now we are at (on Paul's calender) the Winter Break. 

Still, if they keep up with the Summer references in current issues, you're in a bit of a pickle, aren't you Paul? ;-)

			*	*	*

Re: [New] X-Men & New Mutants (Vol. 2) #2
Posted by Kevin  on June 26, 2003 at 18:25:42:
In Reply to: Re: [New] X-Men & New Mutants (Vol. 2) #2
posted by Kevin  on June 26, 2003 at 17:05:52:

My mistake...I went home and double checked, and the portions of New Mutants #1, (vol. 2) are divided clearly by months.  It starts out in December, then has a section in January, and a section in May, which is supposed to be the "present day".  I don't know where I was getting that 6-7 months ago idea...

So how're you going to handle that, Paul?  Just take the first part which says December, and condence the entire story, ignoring the other months mentioned?  The only other way is to make those riots happen a few months prior...

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Re: [New] X-Men & New Mutants (Vol. 2) #2
Posted by Paul Bourcier on June 26, 2003 at 21:26:15:
In Reply to: Re: [New] X-Men & New Mutants (Vol. 2) #2
posted by Kevin  on June 26, 2003 at 18:25:42:

> My mistake...I went home and double checked, and the portions of New Mutants #1, (vol. 2) are divided clearly by months.  It starts out in December, then has a section in January, and a section in May, which is supposed to be the "present day".  I don't know where I was getting that 6-7 months ago idea...

> So how're you going to handle that, Paul?  Just take the first part which says December, and condence the entire story, ignoring the other months mentioned?  The only other way is to make those riots happen a few months prior...

I theorize that the December flashback happened the previous December, the January flashback the previous January, and the May flashback the previous May.  Then I have the main story in November.  There is no reference to the amount of time that passes between the flashbacks in NM2 1 and NM2 1, leaving me free to place several months between the most recent flashback and the main story.

--Paul

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Thor and Loki's appearances in Venus#7 and #12 are available online!
Posted by John McDonagh on June 25, 2003 at 14:26:27:

http://www.missouri.edu/~stratton/GA_Scans/

Someone scanned in some Venus issues. Venus#7 and #12 have stories with Loki, while Venus#12 has Thor and Loki, and another story with Neptune. I notice Loki's entry includes his Venus appearance from issue#6. I thought this might interest someone. 

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QUARK...CLAY QUARTERMAIN...QUASAR III
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 26, 2003 at 08:30:31:

new entries marked **

QUARK
**L 5
**L 6
X@ 1

QUARTERMAIN, CLAY
H2 315
**H2 321   unnamed, in shadow  pg 17/7 17/8 
H2 322

QUASAR III/WENDELL ELVIS VAUGHAN
Q 33
( A 346   ***  Im not seeing Quasar in A 346)
AWC 82
Q 34
**A 347
CA 401
Q 35

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#98

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Human Torch early continuiy revisited
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 26, 2003 at 15:03:17:

A while back there was a thread discussing what high school year Johnny was in when he became the Torch.

In FF 233 Johnny states "it was in my junior year at Glennville High, just before I became the torch."

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Re: Human Torch early continuiy revisited
Posted by Paul Bourcier on June 26, 2003 at 21:18:57:
In Reply to: Human Torch early continuiy revisited
posted by Arthur Stein on June 26, 2003 at 15:03:17:

> A while back there was a thread discussing what high school year Johnny was in when he became the Torch.

> In FF 233 Johnny states "it was in my junior year at Glennville High, just before I became the torch."

Well, you're right; FF 233 does have that quotation, and THAT contradicts BOTH the Marvel Index calendar (FF #1 before sophomore year)AND the current Human Torch series (FF #1 between sophomore and junior years)!

Could it be Johnny was having a synapse failure at the time he said that?  That kind of thing does happen occasionally.  [Or maybe the writer was having some difficulty with early FF history, having mispelled "Glenville." ;)] I'm still inclined to go with the Marvel Index calendar and would consider Johnny a freshman during that flashback with Munson in FF 233.

--Paul

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Re: Human Torch early continuiy revisited
Posted by SKleefeld on June 27, 2003 at 14:42:01:
In Reply to: Re: Human Torch early continuiy revisited
posted by Paul Bourcier on June 26, 2003 at 21:18:57:

> > A while back there was a thread discussing what high school year Johnny was in when he became the Torch.

> > In FF 233 Johnny states "it was in my junior year at Glennville High, just before I became the torch."

> Well, you're right; FF 233 does have that quotation, and THAT contradicts BOTH the Marvel Index calendar (FF #1 before sophomore year)AND the current Human Torch series (FF #1 between sophomore and junior years)!

> Could it be Johnny was having a synapse failure at the time he said that?  That kind of thing does happen occasionally.  [Or maybe the writer was having some difficulty with early FF history, having mispelled "Glenville." ;)] I'm still inclined to go with the Marvel Index calendar and would consider Johnny a freshman during that flashback with Munson in FF 233.

Or...

(I think you'll like this, Paul)

Maybe Johnny meant "just before I became the Torch" in a more metaphoric sense. He may have indeed had his powers earlier, but he hadn't come to grips with them as part of himself. So while he LITERALLY became the Torch considerably earlier, he didn't EMOTIONALLY become the Torch until sometime during his junior year.

How's that for an explanation?  ;)

-- Sean

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Re: Human Torch early continuiy revisited
Posted by Paul Bourcier on June 27, 2003 at 21:46:25:
In Reply to: Re: Human Torch early continuiy revisited
posted by SKleefeld on June 27, 2003 at 14:42:01:

Johnny Storm...metaphors...emotions...I do like that one, Sean.  Of course making a statement like that would take a degree of maturity and self-realization that we know Johnny had in spades at the time of FF 233  ;)

--Paul

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Hercules Limited series
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 27, 2003 at 13:09:31:

There were two Hercules limited series in the early 80's. Neither of which appear to be in the MCP

The second series took place in the 24th century, so obviously not part of the MCP.

But the first series, I thought was contemporary. Near the end Hercules meets Nova (Frankie Raye).  Is this series deemed non-canon for some reason?

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Re: Hercules Limited series
Posted by Peter Fabricius on June 27, 2003 at 15:25:39:
In Reply to: Hercules Limited series
posted by Arthur Stein on June 27, 2003 at 13:09:31:

Yes the second takes place in 2385, as stated on the first page, and a couple of pages later it is said that this is 41 years after he meets Commander Malin in vol.1 #3, so this must take place in approx. 2344.

Since the Rigellians come looking for Hercules and the Recorder in vol. 1 #4 due to the large debt he has accumulated during the first 4 issues, I think it unlikely they let this go on for 400 years.

So it is likely that the entire first volume took place in the 24th century.

There is however no indication in the first series as to when it occurs, as far as a cursory examination shows.

Peter

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Re: Hercules Limited series
Posted by captamr on June 27, 2003 at 22:38:49:
In Reply to: Re: Hercules Limited series
posted by Peter Fabricius on June 27, 2003 at 15:25:39:

Hercules second limited series definitely continues from the first and is timed in the 24th century. Not only is there the 41 year reference but the Recorder summarizes in #4 of the first series with Hercules stating that their adventures have extended over these many months indicating the time span of the first series.

I believe we must assume that Nova is still around with Galactus for the next 300 years and that the power cosmic keeps her young and youthful.  Layton draws a mature Frankie Raye. She is now all woman and looks nothing like the youngster that hung around the Torch.

Charlie

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Firepower
Posted by Jopili on June 29, 2003 at 11:29:26:

Firepower, enemy of Iron Man, is not listed in the MCP.

I know just two apparitions (may and june 1988):

FIREPOWER/JACK TAGGERT
IM 230
IM 231

jopili
http://marvelinitalia.cjb.net

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Re: Firepower
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 29, 2003 at 16:22:22:
In Reply to: Firepower posted by Jopili on June 29, 2003 at 11:29:26:

FIREPOWER is also in IM 288

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Re: Firepower
Posted by Jopili on June 30, 2003 at 11:01:14:
In Reply to: Re: Firepower
posted by Arthur Stein on June 29, 2003 at 16:22:22:

Arthur, I think he's not the same character.

The armor is different and the man into the armor has no name, he could be an anonimous governative agent.

I think we can list:

FIREPOWER II
IM 288

What do you think about?

jopili
http://marvelinitalia.cjb.net

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Re: Firepower
Posted by Russ Chappell on June 30, 2003 at 16:42:30:
In Reply to: Re: Firepower
posted by Jopili on June 30, 2003 at 11:01:14:

> The armor is different and the man into the armor has no name, he could be an anonimous governative agent.

I don't think that's enough to say it's a different character.

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Re: Firepower
Posted by Mithrandir on July 25, 2003 at 17:11:22:
In Reply to: Re: Firepower
posted by Russ Chappell on June 30, 2003 at 16:42:30:

> > The armor is different and the man into the armor has no name, he could be an anonimous governative agent.

> I don't think that's enough to say it's a different character.

No but it's enough to raise the question.  And the fact that Firepower "II" is working for the government when the original pretty much went rogue in his previous appearance tends to lean me toward it being a new guy.  (Whether or not the armor has actually changed or it's just artistic license is questionable, but only the operator would need to have been changed to warrant a new entry.)

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Re: Firepower
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 30, 2003 at 21:14:19:
In Reply to: Re: Firepower
posted by Jopili on June 30, 2003 at 11:01:14:

> > FIREPOWER is also in IM 288

> Arthur, I think he's not the same character.
> The armor is different and the man into the armor has no name, he could be an anonimous governative agent.
> I think we can list:

> FIREPOWER II
> IM 288
> What do you think about?

Ill concede that he is unnamed and therefore COULD be another agent.  But I disagree about the armour.  

Both attack with dual chest-beams (IM 230 16/1; IM 288 24/1)

Both have cabling from their shoulder epaulet to the wrist weaponry (IM 231 15/1; IM 288 29/2)

Both have basically the same shape eye slits and helmets

Both have a checkerboard motif on their missiles (IM 230 16/6; IM 288 24/1,2)

Bearing in mind that Firepower was defeated last time out, it makes sense that SOME minor modifications would be done before sending him out again (i.e., the cabling over the rib cage has been moved closer to the waist and inset, redundant wrist weapon removed, etc). 

I still view them as the same character  just an upgrade in weaponry. 

			*	*	*

Chronology reviews for 2 Hulk/Wolverine miniseries.
Posted by Kevin  on June 30, 2003 at 19:22:32:

Here's my latest reviews for Paul's calender, featuring the two Hulk/Wolverine miniseries which have come out in the last year.  Thank God the second miniseries is the last Bruce Jones issues I have to review for a little while. ;-)

It's for Paul's calender, but anyone can feel free to look over it, to see if I missed anything, or to give any thoughts on overall placement of the two miniseries in trying to fit them into chronology for Hulk and Wolverine's characters.

Wolverine/Hulk #1
The Marvel Knights Miniseries
Written and Drawn by Sam Kieth

Appearances: Bruce Banner/Hulk,  Wolverine, New Character: Po.

Synopsis: 

Logan is flying a WW2 style airplane all by himself over some mountains in what must be somewhere in Northern Alaska, Canada, or Greenland, (its gotta be near the arctic circle). Hes either on some sort of solo mission, or a mission for the Xmen, or hes just really trying to get away from it all on vacation, (the story really never says). At any rate, he ends up crashing due to the cold weather.

Hes sitting there in the wreckage of the plane, with snow all around him on this mountain range, thinking he needs to sit and stay there, and that surely a rescue team will be by to pick him up soon, when he is suddenly greeted by a little girl, no more than 6 years old, who introduces herself as Po, and says her and her father are trapped in a lake nearby. She says they were flying in a small biplane, when they crashed in the lake, and she says her daddy is running out of air.

Logan simply figures he must be hallucinating; theres no way a little girl could be all alone up here on this freezing mountain, so he just tells her to go away. She turns into a cartoon version of herself and fades away, only to pop back into existence again a few seconds later. She keeps pestering Logan, and he finally agrees to go off and help her, (though he cant figure out what this girls problem really is, and hes still not sure if hes hallucinating or not). He soon concludes this apparition of a girl must be a psychic link, or shes a mutant of some kind, so he marches onward, with her clinging to his shoulder.

She says she was sitting on her daddys lap in the biplane, while they were going for a joyride, and before they took off, she says her Uncle was there to wish them a safe trip, and her uncle warned her if they were in any trouble, for her to pull a red strap which would apparently eject her and her daddy with a parachute. Her uncle also warned her not to mess with the controls, but she says she thinks she might have been a bad girl.

She says that her uncle happens to be nearby, and they can stop and ask him to help in rescuing her father. They get to a cave where Po says her uncle is, and Logan falls in, only to find a slumbering Hulk inside. The Hulk wakes up, and Po says this is her Uncle Bruce, and she asks that he get Uncle Bruce to calm down, so he shrinks back to normal. Logans not so sure he can calm the Hulk down, and she says that the Hulk cant see or hear her, so its up to Logan. Hulk just thinks that Logan, (or Little Man, as he calls him) is talking to the air, and that aggravates him, so he attacks Wolverine, and a fight ensues. All the while, Logans wondering how he gets mixed up in these things

References: This is Stupid Hulk were encountering here, not the same as the Hulk from the recent Bruce Jones storylines. This was published in Winter/Spring of 2002, the same time as the Order was being published, and at the same time we were only 4 or 5 issues into Bruce Jones Hulk issues, so I think the obvious answer is that this takes place between the Order and Hulk #34, (Jones first issue). Seeing as months pass in between the two, Id say this miniseries happens closer to The Order than to Hulk #34, since this Hulk is the classic Stupid Hulk, who has dropped off the map by the time of Hulk #34.

Theres snow on the ground, but this is near the Arctic Circle, where there is snow all the time, so thats not a big deal, Id say

Im going to post the dialogue between Logan and someone back at the airport (or somewhere) while hes flying.  Maybe you can figure out who hes talking to, (is it one of his fellow Xmen?) and figure out if this was a mission he was on for the Xmenfrankly, I dont know.

Logan, (whos apparently lost): Where?

Voice over the Radio: Over the Straights, Latitude: 36 55 S., Longitude:  174 47 E. You anywhere near that, Logan?  Over. Logan, do you read?

Logan: Yeah, Yeah.  I got bigger problems, bub.  Whos the Jackass that gave me this clunker to get over the mountains with, anyway?

Voice: Thatd be you, Logan. Over.

Logan: Wellwhyd you listen to me in the first place?  The J and B was YOUR idea.  Which ones the gas gauge again?

Voice: Very funny. Over.

Logan: Im not kidding.  Which one is the Gas?  Wait- Now its stalled.  What do I do?

Voice: Logan, youre breaking up.

And then he crashes. Can anyone make heads or tails of this? Whats a J and B?

Wolverine/Hulk #2
The Marvel Knights Miniseries
Written and Drawn by Sam Kieth

Appearances: Bruce Banner/Hulk, Wolverine, New Character: Po.

Synopsis: Logan crawls out of the cave, and Hulk smashes his way out behind him. Po tries to sooth Hulk by singing a song to him, a cute little lullaby about a bunny hopping through the woods. For some reason, the Hulk CAN hear that, and says it hurts his ears. Po says her daddy taught her to sing it, and it must be triggering a memory in the Hulks mind. But Hulk apparently hates this memory, and just continues fighting Logan, demanding he make the song stop. The fight continues, and Logan runs all the way back to his crashed plane. Po reappears next to him there, startling Logan, thus giving away his position, (he was trying to hide from the Hulk). Hulk climbs into the wrecked cockpit to continue the fight, when suddenly, the whole cockpit part slides off down the mountain, forming a mini avalanche.  

It  comes to a stop down below at another ledge, and as Logan and Hulk dig them selves out of the snow, we see Hulk has finally exhausted himself, and turns back into Banner. Banner wonders where the Hulk has brought him to now. Logan says theres no time to explain, and starts to ask Banner about a red strap (which Po was supposed to pull), but suddenly Po taps on Logans shoulder, and he looks backwards, to see theyre teetering on the edge of another cliff, and Logan says for Banner to not move an inch. Unfortunately, Banner sneezes, and they fall off the edge, to a freezing lake below.  

Logan drags himself outas does the Hulk, freshly transformed again. Logan says hes sick of fighting, but Hulks not, and so, in desperation, Logan asks Po if she has any tricks up her sleeves. Suddenly, the Hulk falls over unconscious. Logan asks Po what she did, and she says she suddenly remember something her Uncle Bruce one taught her, something about the fluids in the ear, and if you mess that up, you mess up a persons equilibrium, and she says she just messed up the Hulks, (temporarily knocking him out). Logan grimly asks why she didnt think of that sooner, and shes like, oops!  

Cut to later, as Logan has Hulk tied up with ropes and is dragging the Green Goliaths unconscious body along. They finally reach Pos lake where she says her and her daddy crashed, and urges him to hurry. But he just looks down upon and old dried up pond, nothing more than dust now. Hes totally confused, and says they need to rest for the night, saying it can wait till morning.

Wolvie dreams of Po drowning, and he wakes up with a gasp, to find a refreshed Dr. Banner standing over him. Banner asks, So whats this about a Red Strap?

References: none really.  This is pretty much an action issue.

Wolverine/Hulk #3
The Marvel Knights Miniseries
Written and Drawn by Sam Kieth

Appearances: Bruce Banner/Hulk, Wolverine, New Character: Po.

Synopsis: You already have this issue, Paul, I believe, so I might shorten this a bit.

Logan and Banner stand over the sleeping form of Po, discussing her. Banner can see her now, (apparently she is operating on some sort of psychic wavelength, and thus, the Stupid Hulk couldnt see or hear her because hes not smart enough to receive psychic transmissions from an untrained 6 year oldor something like that).

Banner explains in a series of numerous flashbacks that hes Pos Godfather.  Pos mom and dad were friends of Banners back when he worked on the Gamma Bomb for the army, (in the years leading up to Hulk #1, back in 1962). He says most everyone on the base mocked him and his ideas, except for The Generals Daughter (must be Betty Ross) and Hank, (Pos dad). Pos mom died giving birth to Po, (we learn that in a throw away line given by Po in issue 1, by the way) and so Hank raised her alone. Hank was a technician on the Gamma Bomb test site, and brought his daughter around a lot, to hang out with Banner. Banner didnt understand why Hank and his wife wanted him to be the Godparent, he was totally no good with kids, (and the thought of it didnt make him happy or sad, which struck him as odd). But strangely enough, Po and Banner hit if off, and they get along well enough.

Pos day was a cropduster in his spare time, using one of those old Biplanes for the job, and he decided to take Po for a joyride one day. Banner warned her to pull the red strap if they encountered trouble, and not to mess with the controls. They were supposed to be gone a couple of hoursbut they never returned.

Banner says a few weeks later, his life changed forever, for the worse, (and we see the whole Gamma Bomb incident which changed him into the Hulk), and he says that all that emotion he had kept up inside over the years burst forth after his becoming the Hulk. But he says he finds it strange that he never could find a way to mourn, to cry for the loss and disappearance of Po and Hank. Of course, the funeral for Hank and Po happened before the Hulk #1, back when Banner was still keeping his emotions repressed inside, but he still wonders why he couldnt cry at the funeral.

Getting back to the present, suddenly, a Polar Bear attacks! Ah, the joy of plot convenience. And thus, Banner becomes the Hulk again, and Logan tricks the Hulk into thinking he needs rescued from the Polar Bear, and the bear runs off. Logan says, My Hero! and befriends the Hulk. Soon, after Pos awake, they travel down into the dried up lake, and Po points to a spot where she says her and her daddy are trapped at the bottom of the lake, among the seaweed. Hulk and Banner just stare down at the dirt, and realize they have some digging ahead of them, if theyre going to find out just where the heck Po and her daddy areand what happened to them.

Hulk can see the little girl now for some reason. Apparently, since Banner had time to focus on this apparition, upon becoming the Hulk again, Hulk can now detect her presence as well.

References: Logan and Banner are wondering how this little girl is still alive, and Logan says that must have happened, 20 friggin years ago. So it was 20 year ago that the events of Hulk #1 happened? Doesnt that support your overall timeline idea, Paul? Of course, Logan was probably just exaggerating. But theyre wondering why this little girl isnt all grown up by now

Wolverine/Hulk #4
The Marvel Knights Miniseries
Written and Drawn by Sam Kieth

Appearances: Bruce Banner/Hulk, Wolverine, New Character: Po.

Synopsis: They dig, and they dig, and they digall the while talking, with Po telling them deeper and deeper, and Logan and Hulk think shes out of her mind, and theyre just starting to get on each others nerves again, and are about to fight, when Po starts singing that Little Bunny in the Woods song again, and Hulk clutches his ears in pain, begging her to stop singing, and he goes back to digging. Po says she was singing that song the day they took off in the biplane, (so this must be a memory from Banners mind which is causing the Hulk pain).

Soon, Logans claws strike something metallic. Its the tail of the old plane. They dig out the tail end, and Hulk tries to pull it out, but the tail end just breaks off. In anger, he slaps his hands together, creating that smashing wind technique he does, when blows the dirt off the rest of the planeto reveal still in the pilot seat is the skeletons of Hank and Po. Po says, Can you see us? Are we okay?

And Logan says, Yeahyoure fine To which Hulk replies, Huh? They are?

Po asks them to pull the red strap, and Hulk does, and the parachute shoots out and comes to a rest in the dirt. Po says, Hooray! You did it! Im free! and she starts to float up through the air, waving goodbye, saying shes free now, (obviously going to heaven, or whatever) but Hulk says, Hulk not understandgirl is dead.

Po gasps upon hearing Hulk say that, and she floats back down to the ground, clutching her throat, like shes drowning underwater. Logan says that Hulks got to reassure her, and let her know shes okay, but Hulks like, But shes not okay, shes dead. Logan tells her hes got to let her go, to set her freeand after a pause, the Green Giant says, 

Hulk was wrong, Po. Girl and Dad are safe.

And she immediately resumes floating up to the sky, and disappears.

Logan smiles, and slaps the Hulk on the back, saying that they saved a little girls life just now, (though technically, I guess they were saving her soul) and he asks Hulk how he feels about that. Hulk stands thereand simply says, Hulk feels nothing. Which is eerily reminiscent of Banner in the last issue saying he felt nothing and couldnt cry at the funeralbut here, it seems the Hulk is just saying that, not wanting to admit how he really feels.

Logan says its probably good he feels nothing, and says masking yourself from the pain is how you sometimes find the strength to carry on in life. He walks away from the Hulk, (whos still standing there) and is apparently setting off, to make his way back to civilized lands to the south.

Meanwhile, Hulk just stands there, and as Logan moves off into the distance, we see a couple of tears fall down the Hulks face. Apparently hes found the tears for Po after all.

References: Nonebut going by the time Logan, Po, and Hulk took to sleep at the end of Issue 2, I figure the end of issue 2, along with issue 3 and 4, happen the next day. So this miniseries happens over the course of two days.

Hulk/Wolverine: 6 Hours
Pt. 1 of 4
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Scott Kolins

Appearances: Bruce Banner/Hulk, Wolverine, New Characters: Margie White, Kyle Hatcher, Sid, Whitie.

Synopsis: ENTIRE MINISERIES HAPPENS A LITTLE OVER SIX HOURS, OVER THE COURSE OF ONE AFTERNOON AND EVENING.

We start with several small scenes showing what several characters are up to.

Wolverine arrives at a Cabin in the middle of some woods in rural Canada, hoping to have some time to himself, to take a vacation alone.

A teenager, (between 13 and 15 years of age by appearance) named Kyle Hatcher is getting ready to go to summer camp, but doesnt seem to enthusiastic about the idea. In fact, hes arguing with his mother repeatedly about the maid having rearranged his room, and she says that its clean now. She demands he hurry up, so he doesnt miss his plane, but all he says is for her to make sure she feeds his snakes while hes gone. His room is full of them. He cant find his glasses, and while he searches his room, he sticks his hand in one of his snakes cages, only to be bit.  He recoils, not expecting that particularly snake, (a favorite of his, named Sammy) to have bit him. He finally finds his glasses, (his mother shows him theyre in his drawer, where she had the maid put them. Shes sarcastically telling him theyre where theyre supposed to be: put up, like everything else in his room.  Apparently hes a messy teenager).

Meanwhile, we see Bruce Banner is in an airport nearby, (what town this is, Im not sure). Hes apparently still on the run, and when a couple of police officers come into the section of the airport hes in, apparently on the look out for him, (someone must have spotted Banner) he immediately decides its time to catch the fastest plane out of there. Ahead of him in line is a guy dressed in a hawaiin outfit, (maybe on vacation) who asks for a oneway ticket to Mistassini, Canada. He has a reserved ticket for what is apparently a private charter plane. He walks off, and Banner rushes up and echos the guy, asking for a ticket to Mistassini. The flight attendent says that that flight is reserved, and its a private charter, and says they have another flight leaving in a couple of hours, but Banner knows hell be found by these cops by then. He follows the same person who was ahead of him into the restroom, and a minute later he walks out wearing the guys Hawaii style clothes. Banners decided to change spots with this guy.

Meanwhile, at the exact same time, in another part of town somewhere nearby, a couple of thugs are doing a drug sale with a buyer. This buyer discovers hes been shorted by about 15 kilos, (of cocaine) and he draws a gun, but is beaten to it by one of the two other guys, who shoots him dead. The two guys then run off with both the cocaine and the money for themselves, saying theyve got to catch a flight to Mistassini.

So Banner gets onboard the flight, greeted by the pilot, who introduces herself as Margie White. She comments Banner doesnt look like a Pottsworth, (that must be the guy he stole the ticket from), and Banner just says he gets that a lot. Kyle Hatcher arrives by taxi and climbs onboard, the whole time on his cellphone to his mom. She asks if hes okay, (she saw the snakebite on his hand), but he says hes fine, and for her to just make sure the snakes get fed while hes gone to summer camp. Then the two thugs get onboard, (we learn their names are Sid and WhitieWhities probably not his real name). And they take off for Mistassini, Canada.

As they crossover the Canadian border, (and it didnt take too long, which fuels my suspicion they were already somewhat near the Canadian border) Kyle starts growing more and more sick. Banner notices, and gets into the seat next to Kyle, and asks him whats wrong. Kyle mumbles stuff about a snake named Sammy, and something about the maid moving stuff around in his room.  Banner picks up Kyles cellphone, and pushes redial, so that he ends up calling Kyles mother back. Banner says Kyles apparently been bitten by a dangerous snake, and the mother says thats impossible, Kyle has some venomous snakes, but he only handles the non dangerous ones, like Sammy. After hearing that the maid rearranged some things, Banner gets the mother and stepfather to run into the boys room and go through a snake book. As Banner has already concluded, Kyle, (who didnt have his glasses on) stuck his hand into the cage where he thought Sammy was, but it was a different snake. Kyle thought he was handling a harmless King Snake, but he was handling a Coral Snake, (which look similar). By the point, Kyle has passed out. Banner tells the parents goodbye, saying theyll get Kyle to the nearest hospital.

Meanwhile, Logan is walking through the woods, listening to the radio, when a mountain Lion pops up nearby, growling at him. Apparently he sees Logan as food, but Logan brandishes his claws and lets off a feral growl of his own, and the cat turns and walks away sulking.

While this is going on, the two thugs are looking uneasily at Kyle and Banner, not liking where this is going, and the pilot Margie is listening to whats happening from her place up at the cockpit. Upon Banners deduction that Kyle has been poisoned, he says theyve got to turn the plane around, (and Margie agrees) but Sid and Whitie suddenly pull out guns, and say theyre on a very tight schedule, and that they have to make a drop off in Mistissini, so the flight must go on. Banner is pissed off that theyre going to let this kid die instead of getting him the help he needs, and Whitie, (the more arrogant of the two) says for him not to play the hero, and swats Banner across the back of the head with the butt of his gun. Hes about to shoot Banner, but Banners eyes glow green, and suddenly the thugs are face to face with the Hulk. They fire their guns, and the Hulk ends up tearing up the plane, and it goes down, as the pilot radios in a distress call.

Meanwhile, Wolverine is walking through the woods by himself, listening to the radio, but decides hes sick of the news, and that he came out here to get away from it all, so he pitches his radio away. If he had kept it, a few seconds later he would have heard on the news about a missing plane near where he is walking through

References:  Lots of references here

Green trees and grass outside, but Logan is wearing a jacket outdoorsit is Canada, after all.

Banner has a full head of hair by this miniseries, which means it must happen AFTER the storyarc in Hulk #45-49. Ill point out that this miniseries was published at the same time as the Hulk #50-54 storyarc was going, so the only real question is whether this miniseries happens before Hulk #50, or after Hulk #54. Since Banner was traveling from Colorado in Hulk #49, to New Mexico in Hulk #50, Id vote that it happens AFTER Hulk #54, but before Hulk #55, when Banners in New York.

I looked online, and theres a Mistassini in Canada, in the Quebec region.  Its a lake, and a town, if Im not mistaken.

Also, on the final page, as Logan walks away from the radio, a news broadcaster says a mayday transmission was received by Noland FieldI did a little searching online, and theres a Noland Airfield in Blue Mound, Illinois, so maybe that was the airfield where they took off from, (remember, not too much time has passed, so I figure they had to be somewhat close to Canada).

In the opening pages, when we see Banner at the airport, at first, hes reading a newspaper, with the headline:  Fugitive Banner Headed North? A smaller headline reads, (and its partially obscured): Avengers Victor-

In another scene, as the stepfather and mother are watching the news for any info about a rerouted plane with a sick kid, the CNN newsperson says there was a plane crash at an American Air Show, leaving 73 spectators dead, (this is done by the writer just to give the parents the creeps while at the exact same time, the small private plane is actually going down). A small headline on CNN below the news about this plane crash reads, TALIBAN ATTACKED but thats surely got to be a topical add on

Hulk/Wolverine: 6 Hours
Pt. 2 of 4
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Scott Kolins

Appearances: Bruce Banner/Hulk, Wolverine, Margie White, Kyle Hatcher, Sid, Whitie, New Character: the Shredder, (no, not the Ninja Turtle VillianI guess Bruce Jones was running out of names)

Synopsis: We start with Banner waking up in a lake, finding himself floating on the water. The crashed plane is next to him. He looks inside the wreckage for the others, but theyre nowhere to be seentill he sees a set of footprints at the edge of the lake walking off into the woods.

Somewhere up ahead in the woods, Sid and Whitie are standing over Margie and an unconscious Kyle. All look a little banged up, but theyre okay. The two thugs were going to kill the Margie and Kyle, but Margie tells them that theyll be lost in the woods, and never make it to Misstasini, which is obviously where they were heading. Margie says she grew up here, and she can guide them. Sid and Whitie discuss it: Their money blew out the plane when the Hulk was rampaging, but they still have the suitcase full of cocaine, and a buyer up here who is willing to pay handsomely for it, (thats why they came up north). They call up their buyer on a cellphone, and tell him what happened. This buyer asks where they are, but after giving a description of their surroundings, they basically decide theyre completely lost. They decide to take Kyle and Margie along, letting Margie guide. They tell her Misstasinis not their destination, but a small lake outside of the town. Thats where theyll meet their buyer.

Meanwhile, on a golf course somewhere back in the USA, a crime boss is playing a round of golf, while his flunkies watch on. He suddenly gets a phone call on a cell phone: some of his men have found the body of the original buyer that Sid and Whitie were selling the cocaine to last issue. Either Sid and Whitie are former operatives for this crime boss whove gone rogue, or they were just selling some dope to him, Im not sure, but they crime boss wants their heads. They figure out Sid and Whitie are heading to Canada to their other buyer, and they call up a hitman who happens to run that territory. This hitman is a S and M freak with a long clawed hand, who calls himself the Shredder. He takes the case to hunt Sid and Whitie down.

Banner is putting on another set of clothes from his duffel bag, when hes suddenly attacked by that mountain lion that Logan saw last issue. Banners starting to let the adrenaline wash over, to transform into the Hulk. Suddenly Logan on a motorcycle races through, knocking the Lion away from Banner and crashing. The cat runs off. Banner tells Logan about the kid with the snake bite, and they decide to team up. Logans bike was damaged in the crash, but Logan says his cabin is nearby, and its just a good thing he saw the smoke from the wreckage. They head to his cabin, where he patches up his bike, while Banner looks through Logans first aid kit, searching for Anti-venom, and when he cant find the type required, he concocts a hasty antidote he hopes will work.

They take off on the bike racing after Sid and Whitie and the hostages. From a ridge above, the Shredder spots them, and calls up the Crime Boss, and says hes going to have to charge extra. It appears he recognizes Logan, but he tells the Crime Boss its nothing he cant handle.

Sid and Whitie steal an RV Camper from an old retired couple whos fishing next to a lake. They take off down the road, and just as a few minutes later the Shredder pulls up. He asks the old couple if the people who went off in the Camper were two thugs, and they say yes, and Shredder kills the two old folks, and races off ahead on his bike. A few minutes later, Logan and Banner pull up on their motorbike and look at the ghastly carnage of the two dead old folks. They didnt expect to run across this. Logan comments hes seen this type of work before.

In the RV camper, Margie White realizes that the two thugs are going to kill her and Kyle upon them reaching the lake. She pulls some drugs and a syringe from her first aid kit from her plane out, and stabs Whitie, (the driver) in the back of the neck with a syringe full of some sort of knock out poison, cause Whitie slumps unconscious. Before Sid can shoot Margie in retailiation, the Camper goes flying over a cliff.

References: Banner appears to be shivering upon dragging his almost naked self out of the lake where they crashed. A sign of Winter temperatures?  Well, it is Canada

After Logan chases off the mountain lion, he asks Banner how he managed to keep Old Green Skin from emerging. Logans amazed at the degree of control Banner has currently over the Hulk. I take this as a reference to events in recent issues of Hulk, (perhaps issues 44-49)?

Hulk/Wolverine: 6 Hours
Pt. 3 of 4
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Scott Kolins

Appearances: Bruce Banner/Hulk, Wolverine, Margie White, Kyle Hatcher, Sid, Whitie, the Shredder.

Synopsis: Margie and Sid crawl out of the wrecked RV camper, with Margie dragging Kyle. Whities behind the steering wheel, near death. Sid can tell Whitie has a crushed spine. Sid takes the cocaine for himself and forces Margie at gunpoint to lead on to the lake where hes supposed to meet his buyer. Margie drags the still unconscious Kyle along on a makeshift stretcher.

A few minutes later, the Shredder arrives to find the wreckage of the RV camper. He interrogates the near death Whitie. Whitie just says theyve gone on foot up ahead and left him, and he begs Shredder not to leave him like this. Shredders more than happy to comply, killing Whitie with his claws.

A short time later, Banner and Logan arrive at the wrecked Camper to find Whities body. Logan says hes concluded that this is the handy work of The Shredder a nutcase whom he battled once before, (and lost to) many years ago.

Sid and Margie, (with Kyle) climb up another ridge, to see a lake on the other side down below. This is the lake Sid wants to get to: Theres a cabin on the other side where his buyer is waiting. He raises his gun and is about to off Margie, when he suddenly is stabbed viciously, and falls over dead. The Shredder has caught up, and he introduces himself to Margie. He looks through Sids briefcase, making sure all of the cocaine is there. Upon making sure everythings intact, he raises his claw preparing to kill Margie, (and then Kyle) but Margie (in a bid to stay alive) asks the Shredder if he got the money in the safe from the Cabin across the lake. Shredder says hes already been to the cabin and killed Sids buyer: its the first place he visited when he took this assignment. He says he saw no safe. She fools him into believing the safe is behind a painting. She says she learned the combination to the lock from Sid, who was bragging to her. Shredder decides to let her live and takes her and Kyle down to the lake, where they get into a boat and prepare to cross the Lake to the Cabin, where Shredders determined to see if there really is a safe.

Just as theyre starting to set out in the boat, (it has a small motor attached) Logan and Banner pull up on their bike. Logan and Shredder exchange hostile hellos, just as Shredder tosses Kyle into the lake to provide a distraction. Logan races his bike down to the edge of the lake, flying off the ramp. Banner dives into the water to get Kyle, Logan jumps off the bike into the boat where the Shredder awaits, ready to fight, (while Margie cowers in a corner).

References: In one scene, (which I didnt detail above) Kyles mom and stepdad are watching the news. Its been discovered by the authorities at the airport that the fugitive Banner snuck onto that airplane, and its been learned that the plane sent out a mayday signal and has been missing. The two parents fear the worse.

Anyway, the news is showing footage of a Hulk rampage, taken 2 years ago.  Which rampage that was, take your pick. The news reporter also says that Banner has been a fugitive from the law for some months. His fugitive status was probably declared after Ricky Myers died in the Chicago rampage, as referenced in Hulk #34.

Other references: Logan says he first met Shredder when he was just starting to get control of my mutant powers. Would that be after the Weapon X program, or after the end of the Origin miniseries? Theres no flashback to accompany Logans words.

When Logan confronts Shredder at the end, Shredder calls him Logan, to which Logan responds something like, Why so informal? Werent not friends, so you can call me Wolverine! As in, Since I last fought you, Ive gone on to be an X-man, and Im known as Wolverine!

Hulk/Wolverine:  6 Hours
Pt. 4 of 4
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Scott Kolins

Appearances: Bruce Banner/Hulk, Wolverine, Margie White, Kyle Hatcher, the Shredder.

Synopsis: Banner fishs the still unconscious, (and worsening) Kyle out of the lake, and drags him to the shore. He reaches into his pocket to pull out the antidote concoction he whipped up back at Logans cabin, only to find it missing. He realizes with horror that its now at the bottom of the lake.

Meanwhile, Logan and Shredder are tearing into each other in the boat, which crashes at shore upon reaching the other side of the small lake. They get out, still fighting, and at first it looks like Shredders got the upper hand: till Wolverine cuts Shredders clawed arm off. Looks like the older, experienced, and Adamantium equipped Logan could best the Shredder easily. Shredder starts to crawl away, and Logan just walks off, leaving him alone. Margies like: Arent you going to finish him off? And Logan says hes letting someone else do it. From out of the bushes pounces that same Mountain Lion, whos finally found a weak prey in the wounded Shredder. The Shredder doesnt last long against the hungry lion.

Banner runs over to them, carrying Kyle, saying he lost the antidote, and wasnt sure it would work anyway. The boy is at deaths door, and its nearing 6 oclock, (you see, the plane took off at noon, and upon Banner diagnosing the snake bite, he concludes Kyle wont survive past 6 hours time, and that would be 6 oclock). Logan says all they have to do is find a Coral Snake, (the type that bit Kyle) and use its venom to concoct a real antitode, (this is actually a cmon technique Ive heard, but I digress). They drag Kyle up to the Buyers cabin, and Logan says it wont take him a minute to find a coral snake, (being the outdoorsman that he is), and they need one of them to be bit by the snake and give a blood transfusion to Kyle, with his blood acting as a filter. Logans healing factor should heal Kyle, but Banner points out that Logans healing factor will just wipe out the poison. Margie volunteers for the blood transfusion, but Banner says its apparent that hes best qualified. Logan runs off, and a few minutes later comes back with a coral snake. Logan says if the snake bites Banner, they can all expect to see The Green Giant pay them a visit, but Banner says its a price theyll pay if they can cure Kyle in time.

They let the snake bite Banner, and then they begin the transfusion. Its nearly 6 oclock, and it seems to be having no effect. They fear theyre too late, but Banner says they have one last chance: To let the Hulks blood flow into Kyle, and maybe thatll be enough to heal Kyle. Banner asks Logan if hes ready, (he can feel the transformation coming on) and Logan says, Dont flatter yourself, I can handle him and so Banner allows the Hulk transformation to flow over him, (he was on the verge anyway, due to the snakebite). Hulk explodes, tearing apart the Cabin in his wrath. He looks down at Margie and Kyle, (Kyles still unconscious, but some of the Hulks blood with the snake venom got into his system). Logans afraid the Hulks about to attack Margie, so he attacks the Hulk, and they start one of their classic brawls, which carries them into the surrounding woods. To cut to the chase, the Hulks just about beaten Logan to a pulp, when all of a sudden, Hulk and Logan hear a voice behind them say, Excuse me! Does anyone own this snake?  Can I keep it? The Hulk turns to see Kyles up and around.

A short time later, we see Kyle call up his mom. He says he got to hang around with the Hulk, and with Wolverine, (apparently even Wolverines known among teenagers who look up to superheroes) and hes got a new snake to add to his collection, and he says hes using some guy named the Shredders cell phone, but the Shredders dead now, and right about then, he hears the sound of his mother fainting. Margies watching over Kyle: Theyve called in an ambulance, which will arrive shortly.

Meanwhile, Logan is dumping the cocaine into the Lake. Banner and Logan exchange goodbyes, which amount to their friendly rivalry continuing: Logan says Banners jealous cause he saved the kid, but Banner says it was his blood that did the trick. Logan says Margie gave him his phone number, for him to call her, and Banners like She did not! and Logan says, Did too!  like theyre a couple of boys trying to outdo one another, (which they basically are, every time they get together). Banner walks off alone again, still on the run.

References: none really, but can someone explain to me how Banner/Hulks blood works, and how that whole snake bite/transfusion worked? Most of the time, its portrayed to be a bad thing when Hulk/Banner gives blood. Just take a look at the She-Hulk. Banner always felt guilty for giving her blood and turning her into the She-Hulk, (Jennifer doesnt mind though), and as I recall, in the AIDS awareness issue of Hulk #420, the Hulk wouldnt give a transfusion to one of his old sidekicks, (the black guy who was dying of AIDS, whos name escapes me right now). The Hulk said, (and this was Prof. Hulk by the way) that he didnt want to risk turning his sidekick into a freak from his blood. And yet, here its okay to give a transfusion to this kid Kyle.

By the way, theres one other problem which I just concluded last night, (though it should have hit me instantly). I know were talking about setting this in winter, (around #55 of Hulk, which makes sense going by Banners location), but heres a problem: Kyles catching this plane to go to SUMMER CAMP! But I know we were talking about squeezing this into winter. Thats kind of a dilemma, isnt it?

When doing normal chronological placement, (which is different than Pauls Calender placement) order of publication is something I think should definently be taken into consideration. Now since this miniseries was published at the same time as Hulk #50 to 54, the only question would be whether it happens before or after that storyarc. As mentioned above, I think the best slot would be after Hulk #54, but before Hulk #55, (simply going by Banners location) but its not Winter in this miniseries. So would it be wise to hold off placement till later on down the road, till summer arrives on the calender, placing it after later Hulk arcs, or is that unwise, and should we take publication date into consideration, and post where I originally thought to place it.

Your thoughts on this, Paul, (or anyone else)?

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology reviews for 2 Hulk/Wolverine miniseries.
Posted by Jeph! on June 30, 2003 at 22:37:02:
In Reply to: Chronology reviews for 2 Hulk/Wolverine miniseries.
posted by Kevin  on June 30, 2003 at 19:22:32:

> I know were talking about setting this in winter, (around #55 of Hulk, which makes sense going by Banners location), but heres a problem:  Kyles catching this plane to go to SUMMER CAMP! But I know we were talking about squeezing this into winter.  Thats kind of a dilemma, isnt it?

Not really ... if Paul can merrily ignore the growing pile of references to "summer vacation" in the X-books, he can surely ignore this one too.

::grin::

-Jeph!

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Re: Chronology reviews for 2 Hulk/Wolverine miniseries.
Posted by Kevin  on July 01, 2003 at 20:16:32:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology reviews for 2 Hulk/Wolverine miniseries.
posted by Jeph! on June 30, 2003 at 22:37:02:

*after reading both Jeph and Paul's comments*

Well, if we could get this miniseries to fall in March, I suppose you could possibly say it's a Spring Break camp, as opposed to Summer Camp, (that's similar to what Paul's doing: instead of Summer Break, it's Winter Break) but I think it may be best to simply wait a few months and see what we can come up with.

I actually think it may be best to wait 6 to 8 months on all new releases before saying with total assurance where an issue falls on a calender.  That doesn't mean you can't get somewhat of a grasp for where it goes, but nothing's certain in Marvel Continuity till at least 6 or 8 months go by.  

So we should probably just wait and see. ;-)

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Re: Chronology reviews for 2 Hulk/Wolverine miniseries.
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 02, 2003 at 07:03:44:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology reviews for 2 Hulk/Wolverine miniseries.
posted by Kevin  on July 01, 2003 at 20:16:32:

> I actually think it may be best to wait 6 to 8 months on all new releases before saying with total assurance where an issue falls on a calender.  That doesn't mean you can't get somewhat of a grasp for where it goes, but nothing's certain in Marvel Continuity till at least 6 or 8 months go by.  

My approach is to take notes on basic plot and temporal references when the comic comes out and to give it a tentative placement.  Then I readjust as needed based on subsequent knowledge.  Calendar placements usually aren't "finalized" (as much as anything is final) until months after publication.

--Paul

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Re: Chronology reviews for 2 Hulk/Wolverine miniseries.
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 01, 2003 at 07:23:30:
In Reply to: Chronology reviews for 2 Hulk/Wolverine miniseries.
posted by Kevin  on June 30, 2003 at 19:22:32:

> By the way, theres one other problem which I just concluded last night, (though it should have hit me instantly).  I know were talking about setting this in winter, (around #55 of Hulk, which makes sense going by Banners location), but heres a problem:  Kyles catching this plane to go to SUMMER CAMP! But I know we were talking about squeezing this into winter.  Thats kind of a dilemma, isnt it?  

> When doing normal chronological placement, (which is different than Pauls Calender placement) order of publication is something I think should definently be taken into consideration.  Now since this miniseries was published at the same time as Hulk #50 to 54, the only question would be whether it happens before or after that storyarc.  As mentioned above, I think the best slot would be after Hulk #54, but before Hulk #55, (simply going by Banners location) but its not Winter in this miniseries.  So would it be wise to hold off placement till later on down the road, till summer arrives on the calender, placing it after later Hulk arcs, or is that unwise, and should we take publication date into consideration, and post where I originally thought to place it.

> Your thoughts on this, Paul, (or anyone else)?

Temporal references in H3 55 place that issue on Monday, February 17 (and this follows the calendar placements of previous H3 issues nicely).  Since it wouldn't make sense, given Banner's chronology, to place Six Hours during the summer BEFORE H3 55, I'd be tempted to place it about four months AFTER H3 55 -- in June, when a summer camp is likely to begin.  Of course, we'll have to see what Hulk adventures must occur during that four-month period and see if it still makes sense for Six Hours to occur after those adventures.

Thanks for the analysis, Kevin.  I'll go ahead and place Wolverine/Hulk on the calendar and put a placeholder on Six Hours.

--Paul

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Re: Chronology reviews for 2 Hulk/Wolverine miniseries.
Posted by Paul Bourcier</a> on July 04, 2003 at 14:35:03:
In Reply to: Chronology reviews for 2 Hulk/Wolverine miniseries.
posted by Kevin  on June 30, 2003 at 19:22:32:

More thoughts, Kevin.  I notice that in issue #3 of Six Hours, Sid states, "It's 5:15.  It'll be sunset in less than an hour!"

If this story really did occur in June, like the summer camp reference suggests, sunset wouldn't be until after 9 PM!  If sunset really did come before 6:15 in this part of the world, it would likely be late February, and hardly the time of year for the greenery or clothing we see in Canada in this story.

Clearly, Bruce Jones didn't sweat the details of timing in this story.  I'm still inclined to place this series in June and ignore Sid's line (what the heck does HE know anyway?), until we determine that character chronologies won't allow placement that late, then I'll fall back to a spring vacation camp explanation, which would at least place sunset earlier, if not as early as necessary.

--Paul

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Re: Chronology reviews for 2 Hulk/Wolverine miniseries.
Posted by Kevin  on July 04, 2003 at 23:35:18:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology reviews for 2 Hulk/Wolverine miniseries.
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 04, 2003 at 14:35:03:

Oh, you have a copy of Issue #3 of Six Hours as well? I remember you saying you found a copy of #3 of the Sam Keith Hulk/Wolverine miniseries...

But you're right: I hadn't thought of that.  I doubt that Jones was taking time of year into consideration.  In Issue 4, they supposedly got the antidote into Kyle right around 6 pm, (just as he was on death's door, so to speak).  In the epilogue section on the final pages, where we see Kyle call up his mom, it's obviosly a short time later:  The Hulk's calmed down and turned back into Bruce, Wolverine's healing factor has had time to heal his wounds.  They got the cellphone off of the Shredder's dead body, and called an ambulance, and Banner's changed clothes again from his duffel bag and is getting ready to depart, (he's still wanted after all).  My point is:  in this final scene where Kyle's calling his mom and Logan and Banner are saying there goodbye's:  it's still light outside. 

So the artist or the writer screwed up somewhere.  It did look like it was getting dark outside in a couple panels, (around where Sid says Kyle doesn't have much more time, I believe) but it's still light outside in the final pages of #4, and that has to be after 6 oclock, (but maybe shortly after 6 oclock).

So I don't know if that helps us determine what time of year it is or not.  

One other thought:  Snakes, like most reptiles, would be hibernating during the winter months.  All snakes we found in this series were wide awake.  Of course, Kyle's snakes in his house, (as with most reptiles kept as pets) can be tricked into not having to hibernate for the winter if they're kept warm enough, but the one Logan finds in the wild in #4 to use as a cure on Kyle is wide awake as well, (at least it appears that way since they get it to bite Banner).

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Re: Chronology reviews for 2 Hulk/Wolverine miniseries.
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 05, 2003 at 09:29:49:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology reviews for 2 Hulk/Wolverine miniseries.
posted by Kevin  on July 04, 2003 at 23:35:18:

> Oh, you have a copy of Issue #3 of Six Hours as well? I remember you saying you found a copy of #3 of the Sam Keith Hulk/Wolverine miniseries...

I found #3 of Six Hours and #3-4 of the Kieth story.  Your synopsis of the other issues of these two miniseries helped fill in the blanks.  By the way, I ended up placing the Kieth series one year before Six Hours, in the June following the Order.

Good point about the snakes, too.  Six Hours will stay in June for the time being, and we'll see what happens with Hulk and Logan.

--Paul

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QUASIMODO...RABBIT...SENATOR "REB" RALSTON
Posted by Arthur Stein on June 30, 2003 at 21:20:19:

new entries marked **

QUASIMODO
UX 48
**CM 6  last panel
CM 7

RABBIT
**AF 64 pg 17
**AF 65 Pg 7/8
AF 66

RALSTON, SENATOR ROBERT "REB"
SGTF 13
**INV 35
**M/CP 77/3
**M/CP 78/2
**M/CP 79/2
CA@ 9/2-FB
CA@ 9/2-FB
..  ..  ..  ..  ..  
CA3 32-FB
**CA 273
CA@ 9/2
**H2 434
H2 436

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering!

#99
