Scourge?
Posted by Ross Snyder on July 01, 2003 at 00:39:53:

Was that really Scourge in Deadly Foes of Spider-Man #3?  Someone shoots the Shocker and yells "Justice is served!"  It's not listed on  the MCP, maybe since all you see is the gun barrel, Scourge doesn't technically make an appearance, by the standards of the MCP?

Just curious.

			*	*	*

Re: Scourge?
Posted by Ross Snyder on July 01, 2003 at 01:30:51:
In Reply to: Scourge?
posted by Ross Snyder on July 01, 2003 at 00:39:53:

Woops, I'm a dummy.  Should have read DFOS #4 before posting questions.  Kingpin says it was a "hired Scourge impostor".

			*	*	*

Banshee in UX 325
Posted by Paul O'Brien on July 01, 2003 at 15:37:54:

Yes, this is going back a bit...

Banshee and several members of Generation X appear in UX 325 playing baseball with the X-Men.  Banshee's listing places this appearance between GENX 6-7.  However, the kids' listings all place it between GENX 9-10.  One of them's got to be wrong...

			*	*	*

A humble request. Please assist me.
Posted by Khay Prower on July 01, 2003 at 20:04:46:

I am looking for a comprehensive list of everything ever published by Marvel. I am looking for titles, as well as how many issues have been published of each one, and when they were published. This is for a project I'm about to begin, a stupidly large project I'm probably getting in over my head with. Anyways, more about that later, after I've gotten the list and the other things I need to begin.

So, anyways, does anyone here know where I can get such a list?  Even this site doesn't seem to have everything. I personally own quite a bit not covered here. And I need to know about EVERYTHING.

Yours,
Khay

			*	*	*

Re: A humble request. Please assist me.
Posted by Khay Prower on July 01, 2003 at 20:22:52:
In Reply to: A humble request. Please assist me.
posted by Khay Prower on July 01, 2003 at 20:04:46:

P.S. - I already understand that the reason some of the stuff I own ain't on this site, is because it "didn't happen", or was non Marvel universe. But thats my point - I need non-universe to be listed, too.

Yours,
Khay

			*	*	*

Re: A humble request. Please assist me.
Posted by Ross Snyder on July 01, 2003 at 22:31:37:
In Reply to: A humble request. Please assist me.
posted by Khay Prower on July 01, 2003 at 20:04:46:

> So, anyways, does anyone here know where I can get such a list?  Even this site doesn't seem to have everything. I personally own quite a bit not covered here. And I need to know about EVERYTHING.

If it's not available online somewhere, you could generate this list yourself, couldn't you?  Pick up one of the price guides, start at the beginning, go page-by-page, and if it's published by Marvel, add it to the list.  A lot of work, but I'm wondering if that's the only way to get a list as comprehensive as what you're looking for.

			*	*	*

Re: A humble request. Please assist me.
Posted by Jopili on July 02, 2003 at 01:00:45:
In Reply to: A humble request. Please assist me.
posted by Khay Prower on July 01, 2003 at 20:04:46:

Hi Khay.

A list of "everything" ever published by Marvel doesn't exist at this moment.

I'm trying to make a similar list on the pages of my site (http://marvelinitalia.cjb.net) because I need to list for the italian fans the source of every Marvel comic-book published in Italy.

I assembled most of the informations from these sites:
http://www.samcci.comics.org/chronology.htm (for a simple chronology)
http://www.geocities.com/paulo_costa_2000/ (for the credits)

The work is hard and difficult!
Hope I helped you.

Jopili
http://marvelinitalia.cjb.net

			*	*	*

GCD
Posted by Jopili on July 02, 2003 at 01:03:09:
In Reply to: Re: A humble request. Please assist me.
posted by Jopili on July 02, 2003 at 01:00:45:

I forgot the wonderful GCD:
http://www.comics.org/

bye

			*	*	*

Re: A humble request. Please assist me.
Posted by Jimmy on July 08, 2003 at 12:09:28:
In Reply to: Re: A humble request. Please assist me.
posted by Jopili on July 02, 2003 at 01:00:45:

> I'm trying to make a similar list on the pages of my site (http://marvelinitalia.cjb.net) because I need to list for the italian fans the source of every Marvel comic-book published in Italy.

Interesting. I've done the same thing for swedish fans. My lists can be seen here:

http://medlem.spray.se/marvels/guide.htm

The text is in swedish though...But the lists are "international" (if you are familiar with english).

			*	*	*

Re: A humble request. Please assist me.
Posted by Andy Holcombe on July 02, 2003 at 05:52:35:
In Reply to: A humble request. Please assist me.
posted by Khay Prower on July 01, 2003 at 20:04:46:

> I am looking for a comprehensive list of everything ever published by Marvel.

Try the Unofficial Handbook of Marvel Comics Creators at http://www.maelmill-insi.de/UHBMCC/

			*	*	*

wolverine: snikt placement?
Posted by frankcastle on July 02, 2003 at 05:32:28:

any idea where this fits into the scheme of things?

			*	*	*

Re: wolverine: snikt placement?
Posted by Jeph! on July 03, 2003 at 00:11:47:
In Reply to: wolverine: snikt placement?
posted by frankcastle on July 02, 2003 at 05:32:28:

> any idea where this fits into the scheme of things?

Let's wait until the series is over...

Right now there don't seem to be any clues at all, and I doubt there will be.  "Publication order" seems to be the way to go with this, but given that Wolvie appears in something like 900 other books every month, it'll be a bit hard.

We'll see.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: wolverine: snikt placement?
Posted by Nalogg on September 23, 2003 at 11:25:47:
In Reply to: wolverine: snikt placement?
posted by frankcastle on July 02, 2003 at 05:32:28:

not sure, but i hope the colonel turns out to be someone wolverine knows from "present day"

if i had my way he'd be THE colonel, and defeat the mandate with tasty original recipe.

			*	*	*

Paul's Calendar??
Posted by RLG on July 02, 2003 at 08:39:08:

I keep reading about "Paul's calender" and was curious if (and/or when) it is available.  I have looked at his "Avengers: 1st ten years" calendar and was very impressed.

			*	*	*

Re: Paul's Calendar??
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 02, 2003 at 21:40:30:
In Reply to: Paul's Calendar??
posted by RLG on July 02, 2003 at 08:39:08:

Thanks, although I'll be the first to admit that the Year-By-Year feature on the Avengers Assemble web site is in serious need of updating.  I've been editing my copy as needed, but haven't e-mailed Van Plexico revisions for a LONG time (mostly because I'm so busy here).

Anyway, "Paul's calendar" is something a handful of chronologists (Antonio Gavino, Sean Kleefeld, Kevin Wasser, Jeph York, and I) have been compiling both on the posting board and behind the scenes.  It is a day-by-day listing of issues, segments of issues, and flashbacks in chronological order, starting about a month before the Marvel Universe's 9-11 and proceeding to the tentative "present" -- complete with plot summaries and temporal references.  The idea is to use this as a tool to organize recent character chronologies on the MCP.

Right now, the extremely long master document is in the hands of the chronologists above.  We're working on a revised, updated draft, but it isn't quite ready for sharing...and we'll need to bounce it off Russ.

As we tweak the current calendar, I'm beginning to put a skeleton calendar together for the events of the previous Marvel year (starting with A3 10), but that's still quite a way off.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Flashback??
Posted by captamr on July 03, 2003 at 13:05:04:

As usual, I hesitate to enter the realm of flashbacks since there always seems to be an area of uncertainty as to whether the scene adds something new to the chronology or is a rerun of past events.

The splash page prologue of IM 203 delves deeper into the psyche imprint transfer of Bethany Cabe and Madame Masque that occurs in IM 198. The page certainly gives new detail to the events in #198 and probably constitutes a flashback impacting the three characters:

STANE, OBADIAH
IM 195
IM 198
IM 203  FB**
IM 198**
IM 199

CABE, BETHANY
IM 197
IM 198
IM 203  FB**
IM 198**
IM 199

MADAME MASQUE
IM 139
IM 198
IM 203  FB**
IM 201

I am assuming here that the Bethany Cabe at the conclusion of #198 is truly her even though her psyche is that of Madame Masque inhabiting her body. Seems this has been discussed before on the site and resolved this way, but Im not totally sure.

Charlie

			*	*	*

New Warriors problem
Posted by Administrator on July 03, 2003 at 13:55:21:

I must be misreading New Warriors #31, because I don't think Marvel would have screwed up this badly.

The issue concerns Firestar, Cannonball and Warpath journeying to Nova Roma to alert Magma and Empath that the Hellions have been killed. The main story appears to directly follow a flashback, which in turn appears to directly follow UX 282.

The problem is that UX 282 and NW 31 were published about a year apart, and the stories are separated by, among other things, Infinity War.

Declaring that NW 31 occurs out of order doesn't really work, because of developing subplots for Nova and Speedball.

I'm probably misreading, so can someone set me straight?

			*	*	*

Re: New Warriors problem
Posted by Paul O'Brien on July 03, 2003 at 16:00:04:
In Reply to: New Warriors problem
posted by Administrator on July 03, 2003 at 13:55:21:

>The main story appears to directly follow a flashback, which in turn appears to directly follow UX 282.

No, something's wrong there.

This story takes place immediately after X-Cutioner's Song, during the period when X-Force were still staying at the Mansion.  Specifically, it takes place between X-FORCE #18-19 from Cannonball's perspective.  That's confirmed on page 2, panel 2 of X-FORCE #19, when Lila tells Boomer that Sam has just returned to the Mansion after appearing in NEW WARRIORS #31 (referenced in a footnote).

			*	*	*

Re: New Warriors problem
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 03, 2003 at 20:37:46:
In Reply to: New Warriors problem
posted by Administrator on July 03, 2003 at 13:55:21:

> The issue concerns Firestar, Cannonball and Warpath journeying to Nova Roma to alert Magma and Empath that the Hellions have been killed. The main story appears to directly follow a flashback, which in turn appears to directly follow UX 282.

It may APPEAR to follow UX 282 directly, but is that necessarily so?  I propose a time gap between UX 282 and NW 31-FB.  X-Force wouldn't necessarily have heard about the Hellions' deaths until they were spending time with the X-Men, between XFO 18 and 19.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: New Warriors problem
Posted by Administrator on July 03, 2003 at 23:02:35:
In Reply to: Re: New Warriors problem
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 03, 2003 at 20:37:46:

Okay, I've got another one...

A footnote in New Warriors #32, pg. 18, says "*This takes place after events depicted in Dr. Strange [vol. 3] #50."

A footnote in New Warriors #34, pg. 7, says "*This takes place prior to Dr. Strange #50".

While the footnote in NW 32 is not attached to any particular copy, the one in NW 34 is attached to Strange's word balloon: "If light and reason be abducted so abruptly--may Seraphim's shield choose to protect me--*"

Is DRSTR3 50 one of those turning points where he's not allowed to call on the Seraphim? If so, that would suggest the footnote in nw 32 is incorrect.

			*	*	*

Re: New Warriors problem
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 04, 2003 at 09:05:20:
In Reply to: Re: New Warriors problem
posted by Administrator on July 03, 2003 at 23:02:35:

> A footnote in New Warriors #32, pg. 18, says "*This takes place after events depicted in Dr. Strange [vol. 3] #50."

> A footnote in New Warriors #34, pg. 7, says "*This takes place prior to Dr. Strange #50".

> While the footnote in NW 32 is not attached to any particular copy, the one in NW 34 is attached to Strange's word balloon: "If light and reason be abducted so abruptly--may Seraphim's shield choose to protect me--*"

> Is DRSTR3 50 one of those turning points where he's not allowed to call on the Seraphim? If so, that would suggest the footnote in nw 32 is incorrect.

Actually, DRSTR3 49 is the turning point.  In that issue, Strange renounced the Seraphim and a host of other mystical bodies and was stripped of his Sorcerer Supreme title.  DRSTR2 49 follows directly from DRSTR2 48.  So NW 34 must occur before DRSTR2 48.

--Paul

			*	*	*

New Warriors problem solved
Posted by French Thom on July 12, 2003 at 11:18:33:
In Reply to: Re: New Warriors problem
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 03, 2003 at 20:37:46:

Russ, i got the answer to your question. This New Warriors issue does not happen straight after Uncanny X-Men #282, but quite a while after, actauly, after the X-Cutionner's song. During that cross-over, the members of X-Force were all imprisonned at Xavier's. Straight after, Cannonball & Warpath found out about the death of the Hellions and the White Queen's coma (X-Men Vol. II #17, feb.1993).

Storm helps them 2 having Charles Xavier's authorization to bring the news to Empath and Magma. 

Then, they appear in New Warriors #31 (jan.1993), then come back behind the scenes to Xavier's, and are freed in X-Force #19, after 3 weeks of imprisonment, and get their new costumes.

So, you were right to believe Marvel would not have screwed up this badly!

Thom

			*	*	*

Ranark: missed appearance
Posted by SQUEAK on July 04, 2003 at 12:28:44:

Just a minor note:  Ranark appeared in both MTIO 83 & MTIO 84, not just 84, as you have it recorded.  Since you have other character's MTIO 83 appearances recorded, I imagine this was just an oversight.

			*	*	*

"MAD DOG" RASSITANO...RAT...RAWHIDE KID
Posted by Arthur Stein on July 04, 2003 at 13:49:41:

new entries marked **

This posting would have had the RANARK entry posted by squeak just hours ago, so I'll just confirm that entry. What a co-incidence!

RASSITANO, "MAD DOG"
T 433
**C&D3 19 pg 29
M/CP 112/2
..  ..  ..  ..  ..
TS 22
**TS 23
XFOR 40

RAT
**AF 65 Pg 7/8
AF 66
AF 69

RAWHIDE KID
A 143
WCA2 18
**WCA2 19
**WCA2 20
**WCA2 21
**WCA2 22
**WCA2 23
M/HOL 1996/4

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#100   Happy Birthday America!!!

			*	*	*

Arthur's 100th
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on July 04, 2003 at 17:21:38:
In Reply to: "MAD DOG" RASSITANO...RAT...RAWHIDE KID
posted by Arthur Stein on July 04, 2003 at 13:49:41:

Arthur, congratulations on your centennial post in this series.  Even though I am unfamilliar with many of the characters you list, I marvel (heh) at the wonderful and consistent effort you've put into your research.

Bravo!  And here's to the next 100!

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: Arthur's 100th
Posted by Arthur Stein on July 05, 2003 at 15:06:23:
In Reply to: Arthur's 100th
posted by StAkAr Karnak on July 04, 2003 at 17:21:38:

One is glad to be of service!

:)

and thank you.

			*	*	*

Water Wizard/Aqueduct
Posted by Jhaeman on July 04, 2003 at 13:54:37:

Can someone give me a brief summary of what happened to the Water Wizard since he was turned insane by Ghost Rider in GR2 # 59--this is one of the few instances where I haven't been able to find out in the appendix and I'm dying from curiosity :)  I guess he took on the name Aqueduct I see from the chronology listings . . . 

			*	*	*

Re: Water Wizard/Aqueduct
Posted by DCW3 on July 04, 2003 at 19:46:59:
In Reply to: Water Wizard/Aqueduct
posted by Jhaeman on July 04, 2003 at 13:54:37:

Here is the Water Wizard's bibliography post-GR2 59, taken from his OHOTMUME entry:

GR2 61 - "broken out of the institution by Ghost Rider to help drought-ridden town"

GR2 62 - "traveled to Saudi Arabia, learned he could control other forms of liquid than water, battled the Arabian Knight and Ghost Rider"

IM 126 - "hired by Justin Hammer"

IM 127 - "ran away during battle with Iron Man earning Hammer's enmity"

CA 320 - "discovered the 17 victims of Scourge at the Bar With No Name, alerted Captain America for protection"

FF 336 - "encountered Hydro-Man while attacking Four Freedoms Plaza"

NW 7-9 - "first appearance as Aqueduct, member of Force of Nature, employed by Project: Earth to prevent rain forest razing, battled the New Warriors"

This Handbook edition was published before his later New Warriors and Thunderbolts appearances; I know he appeared as a member of the Masters of Evil in TB 24-25.

			*	*	*

RAZOR...RAZORBACK...RAZORFIST III
Posted by Arthur Stein on July 08, 2003 at 15:08:52:

new entries marked **

RAZOR/
In PP 31 pg 16,  the character states They call me RAZOR CUT. He is called Razor Cut on pg 16 and in PP 32 Pg 1 as well.   Possibly this is his FULL Nom de guerre as his cohorts call him just Razor on PP 31 Pg 11 and again in PP 32 pg 9.
**PP 31   
**PP 32
CAGE 5

RAZORBACK/
(Real name Buford Hollis  PPTSS 13 pg 6/5)
PPTSS 15
**PPTSS 19-FB Pg 11/6 shows the reception Razorback received when he returned to his home town after meeting Spider-man. 
S-H2 4

RAZORFIST III
M/CP 4
**M/CP 5
M/CP 7

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering!

#101

			*	*	*

Team America?
Posted by Caleb M on July 08, 2003 at 22:09:56:

I'm looking for more info about the motocross team appearing in New Mutants 5: Team America.  I've been unsuccessful at finding them in the Project.

What I know from that issue: There are 6 members.  Wolf (or El Lobo), Cowboy, R.U. Reddy, Honcho (last name McDonald), Wrench, and his bride Georgianna Hebb.

I would greatly appreciate any help you can provide.  Thanks.

			*	*	*

Re: Team America?
Posted by Cook on July 09, 2003 at 08:27:01:
In Reply to: Team America?
posted by Caleb M on July 08, 2003 at 22:09:56:

Try this link

http://www.comicboards.com/marvelguide/t.htm

it has a Team America entry

			*	*	*

Re: Team America?
Posted by Caleb M on July 10, 2003 at 11:53:58:
In Reply to: Re: Team America?
posted by Cook on July 09, 2003 at 08:27:01:

Thank you.  That was extremely helpful.

			*	*	*

Contribution question
Posted by Janne on July 10, 2003 at 00:45:02:

I have a problem.

I find this site very useful and would like to help a bit with some issues. But the problem is: from the gab # 2 I have issues like Avengers Unplugged # 3-4 and Generation X Underground Special but not any issues of Avengers or Generation X from that era, so I can't place them chronologically.

I can only list the characters that appear there. If I gave a short synopsis of what happens in the issue and how long the story takes, someone else could place them chronologically, someone who has issues of Avengers but not Avengers Unplugged.

Does contributing with these kind of issues help at all?

			*	*	*

Re: Contribution question
Posted by Administrator on July 10, 2003 at 18:17:08:
In Reply to: Contribution question
posted by Janne on July 10, 2003 at 00:45:02:

> Does contributing with these kind of issues help at all?

Yes, they do, but in these cases, you should read the books carefully. Are there any indications, either through captions or dialog, of what might be going on in other books? What are the relationships among the characters? Which characters are mentioned, but not seen, and what's said about them?

These are some of the clues, along with the date of publication, that can help us place a book when you don't have any of the surrounding books.

			*	*	*

Re: Contribution question
Posted by Janne on July 12, 2003 at 02:35:38:
In Reply to: Re: Contribution question
posted by Administrator on July 10, 2003 at 18:17:08:

Thanks!

I'll start contributing then!

			*	*	*

What about Hawkeye vol.2?
Posted by Jopili on July 10, 2003 at 12:03:55:

Searching for the chronology of Batroc and Hawkeye, I found that the series "HAWKEYE: EARTH'S MIGHTIEST MARKSMAN" is listed "HAWK2", but the second series of Hawkeye is a limited series (of 4) edited in 1994 (not present in MCP).

I think the proper listing is:
HAWKEYE (1/4) 1983 = HAWK
HAWKEYE (1/4) 1994 = HAWK2
HAWKEYE: EARTH'S MIGHTIEST MARKSMAN (one-shot) 1998 = HAWK3

Is it correct?

Jopili
http://marvelinitalia.cjb.net

			*	*	*

Re: What about Hawkeye vol.2?
Posted by Sean Curtin on July 13, 2003 at 20:19:39:
In Reply to: What about Hawkeye vol.2?
posted by Jopili on July 10, 2003 at 12:03:55:

> Is it correct?

Yep.  If it's not corrected, it'll get especially confusing in October when the new Hawkeye ongoing series begins...

-- 
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

UNION JACK III (Joey Chapman) additions
Posted by Cook on July 10, 2003 at 13:32:15:

Here's a rough (I mean REALLY rough) chronology of Union Jack III.  The main reason for this post is to possibly get some help placing a few of these issues.  Following Arthur Stein's lead, I've marked new additions with **

CAPTAIN AMERICA v1 #253
CAPTAIN AMERICA v1 #254
**MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS v1 #42/3
CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS v1 #1-BTS
CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS v1 #2-BTS
CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS v1 #3
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v1 #7
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v1 #8
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v1 #10
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v1 #11
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v1 #12
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v1 #13
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v1 #14
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v1 #15
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v1 #16
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v1 #17
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v1 #18
**NAMOR, THE SUB-MARINER v1 #11
NAMOR, THE SUB-MARINER v1 #12
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v2 #1
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v2 #2
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v2 #3
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v2 #4
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v2 #5
**MYS-TECH WARS v1 #1
**MYS-TECH WARS v1 #3
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v2 #6
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v2 #7
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v2 #8
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v2 #9
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v2 #10
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v2 #11
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v2 #12
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v2 #13
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v2 #14
**KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON v2 #15
**MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS Vol. 1 #122/2
**UNION JACK v1 #1
**UNION JACK v1 #2
**UNION JACK v1 #3
THUNDERBOLTS v1 #25
X-MEN: HELLFIRE CLUB v1 #3
MAXIMUM SECURITY v1 #2-FB
MAXIMUM SECURITY v1 #3
**THUNDERBOLTS v1 #57
**CAPTAIN AMERICA v3 #50 ("Stars and Stripes Forever")

			*	*	*

Marvel UK (was Re: UNION JACK III)
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on July 10, 2003 at 22:51:07:
In Reply to: UNION JACK III (Joey Chapman) additions
posted by Cook on July 10, 2003 at 13:32:15:

> **MYS-TECH WARS

Unless I am mistaken, Marvel UK is not yet part of the project.  In this case, chronologizing each book would be better than listing a single character in each.  Whether or not the Project is ready to accomodate Marvel UK yet, however, is a different matter.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel UK (was Re: UNION JACK III)
Posted by Paul O'Brien on July 13, 2003 at 05:45:37:
In Reply to: Marvel UK (was Re: UNION JACK III)
posted by StAkAr Karnak on July 10, 2003 at 22:51:07:

> Unless I am mistaken, Marvel UK is not yet part of the project.  

It isn't, but at some point it'll have to go in there.  As you say, it'd be great if some poor soul could make a stab at analysing all of those books, which are packed with Marvel US guest appearances.

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel UK (was Re: UNION JACK III)
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on July 13, 2003 at 17:44:59:
In Reply to: Re: Marvel UK (was Re: UNION JACK III)
posted by Paul O'Brien on July 13, 2003 at 05:45:37:

Paul O sez:

> it'd be great if some poor soul could make a stab at analysing all of those books, which are packed with Marvel US guest appearances.

Say what you will, but I've always been rather fond of the Death's Head II books.  Presently I don't have as many as I used to, but when the Administrator gives the word for Marvel UK submissions, I'll gladly lend a hand to the floodgates.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Search the MCP: Use CAPITAL letters!
Posted by Jimmy on July 10, 2003 at 13:37:17:

Just a clarification: I've looked over the search strings that people have tried to search the mcp with (http://www.mycgiserver.com/~marvels/searchthemcp.htm) and there are a lot that not are in capital letters. This will not work. You have to use CAPITAL LETTERS.

/Jimmy

			*	*	*

Black Cat in PPTSS@ 4
Posted by Jopili on July 11, 2003 at 02:10:47:

Found in the chronology of the Black Cat:

The BC appears not in the first story of PPTSS Annual 4, but in the second story.

Not
PPTSS@ 4
but
PPTSS@ 4/2

Jopili

			*	*	*

REAPER II...RECORDER...RED RAVEN (I, II and III)
Posted by Arthur Stein on July 12, 2003 at 08:08:01:

new entries marked **

REAPER II
**NM 86    Unnamed  Pg 30/2 
NM 87

RECORDER
T 156
**T 157
T 160
..  ..  ..  ..  ..
H2 176
**H2 177
H2 178

RED RAVEN
A few more pieces of Red Ravens history with understanding that I have NO idea what parts of his origin are contained in RED RAVEN 1  (Red Raven Comics #1 1940). 

RED RAVEN 1
UX 44-FB-BTS  (pg 11/4) on board the plane, flying into the cloudbank
**SUB-M 26-FB-BTS(pg 10/4) on board the plane, through the clouds and in view of the island in the Sky
**T@ 12/2-FB-BTS (last page panel 1) on board the plane in sight of city of Aerie
**T@ 12/2-FB (last page panel 2) infant Red Raven removed from crashed plane (first chronological appearance)
UX 44-FB (pg 11/5) infant presented to ruler
**T@ 12/2-FB (last page panel 3-4) infant presumably as ward of the state; design of artificial wings selected
**SUB-M 26-FB (pg 10/5)  my read ruler is giving infant Red Raven to foster parents; note use of past tense  He WAS the sole survivor indicating some time had passed
**SUB-M 26-FB (pg 10/6)  older, likely late teens, has grown into wings
UX 44-FB (pg 11/6)  Red Ravens 21st birthday; speaks to Citizens Council

M/PRM 29
INV 6
M/PRM 30
M/TIO@ 1
INV 35-FB
INV 36
INV 37
INV 38

**SUB-M 26-FB (pg 10/7)   Red Raven appeals to ruler
UX 44-FB (pg 12/3) appeal denied
UX 44-FB (pg 12/4) overhears invasion plans
**SUB-M 26-FB (pg 11/1)   ~  UX 44-FB (pg 13/1) releases the sleeping gas
**SUB-M 26-FB (pg 11/2) birdman start to fall asleep
UX 44-FB (pg 13/2  13/3) all birdmen asleep; put in special chambers
UX 44-FB-BTS  (pg 13/4)  island descending through the sky
**SUB-M 26-FB-BTS (pg 11/3) ~ UX 44-FB-BTS  (pg 13/5)   city descending through the ocean
INV2 1-BTS
((  M/SH3 8/2    according to Red Raven in DEF2 6, it was the CONSTRUCT (Red Raven II) that Diablo raised. So it is Red Raven II (construct) and Red Raven III (Red Ravens daughter) that appear in M/SH3 8/2, and if so this entry should be removed)
DEF2 6

RED RAVEN II
UX 44
FF 405
UX 44
**SUB-M 26-FB (pg 11/4)  in special chamber floating on the ocean 
( I remember a posting a while back about charting photographs.  If someone is really interestedor for future use       . 
SUB-M 26-FBP (pg 2/5) photo of Red Raven in scientists care after being brought ashore but before his appearance later in SUB-M 26)

SUB-M 26
M/SH3 8/2

RED RAVEN III
**M/SH3 8/2

And while Im on the subject of Red Raven just a point of consistency regarding the title key

HEPHAESTUS and RED RAVEN  have listings respectively of RED RAVEN 1/3  and RED RAVEN 1  (by the way.. Story 3, Mercury  20th Century  was reprinted in M/SH 14/4 and I do not see Hephaestus.).

KRO shows as RED RAVEN COMICS 1  (which should read 1/3).  And the ETERNAL BRAIN shows as RED RAVEN COMICS 9  (which should read as 1/8; But seeing as how this story took place in the then FAR future (i.e., 1980) of what obviously was never the true MU timeline, the entry may not be required by the current MCP.)

Anyway ..    RED RAVEN ~~ RED RAVEN COMICS

Nuff said. 

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#102

			*	*	*

Re: ..RED RAVEN (I, II and III)
Posted by Kate on October 22, 2003 at 10:50:25:
In Reply to: REAPER II...RECORDER...RED RAVEN (I, II and III)
posted by Arthur Stein on July 12, 2003 at 08:08:01:

Hi, 

Just reading about your effort to chart Marvel Chronology wears me out.

I am not a comic book collector - except for Red Raven. Red Raven is a family nickname. We thought we made it up. Boy, were we wrong. Now I'm hooked. I'm really interested in tracking down a Red Raven #1 1940 and the first issue - whatever it may be - of Red Raven III, his daughter. I apologize for my ignorance, but which issue did you mean by "M/SH 3 8/2?" I have a Sub-Mariner 26, when Red Raven  "went bad." Could you help me?

Thanks very much,
Kate  

			*	*	*

Re: ..RED RAVEN (I, II and III)
Posted by Administrator on October 22, 2003 at 17:43:20:
In Reply to: Re: ..RED RAVEN (I, II and III)
posted by Kate on October 22, 2003 at 10:50:25:

Welcome aboard, Kate. If you have any questions about abbreviations, generally the place to start is the KEY. You can find the link in the navigation bar to the left. 

The translation of "M/SH3 8/2" would be: Marvel Super-Heroes, volume 3, issue #8, second story.

Volume 3 of Marvel Super-Heroes was a series of 80-page specials published in the early nineties.

In the idicia, the book is labeled issue 8, but on the cover, it's identified as Winter 1991.

We don't sell books, so can't help you there, but ebay does a pretty good job. For instance, you'll find the first Silver Age appearance of Red Raven at the link below.

Good luck.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2197818159&category=32747

			*	*	*

A Moment of Silence
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 13, 2003 at 07:48:56:

Marvel's special tribute comic to the heroes of 9-11, "A Moment of Silence," contains several stories of real-life people and their experiences with 9-11.  Since the Marvel Universe had a 9-11 as well, can this comic be considered a part of the MU?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: A Moment of Silence
Posted by Kevin  on July 14, 2003 at 16:41:12:
In Reply to: A Moment of Silence
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 13, 2003 at 07:48:56:

I missed that issue when it came out.  Did it feature any appearances by any superheroes whatsoever?  Was this the one which was coproduced with DC and Image comics, (or did they do seperate things themselves...)?  

			*	*	*

Re: A Moment of Silence
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 14, 2003 at 21:39:58:
In Reply to: Re: A Moment of Silence
posted by Kevin  on July 14, 2003 at 16:41:12:

The indicia notes...
"MOMENT OF SILENCE, Vol. 1, No. 1, February, 2002.  Published by Marvel Comics..."  -- no DC or Image involvement.

The stories in this issue feature only real-life people (no MU characters).  Thus, my question about whether we can consider the folks in these stories MU characters who appear here, and only here.  Do we treat this like we do when other real-life people appear in MU comics, or do we treat Moment of Silence as non-canon, like the comic about Pope John Paul II?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: A Moment of Silence
Posted by SKleefeld on July 15, 2003 at 10:08:01:
In Reply to: Re: A Moment of Silence
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 14, 2003 at 21:39:58:

Too many things to do, not nearly enough time!

IIRC, there was nothing in the book that prevented it from being canon. It was basically "real people" stories around the event, right? Jeph already did some work to figure out if their first 9-11 tribute book could fit into canonocity, and I don't know that this would be any different.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: A Moment of Silence
Posted by Paul O'Brien on July 16, 2003 at 17:13:54:
In Reply to: Re: A Moment of Silence
posted by SKleefeld on July 15, 2003 at 10:08:01:

I don't think it's MEANT to be canon, primarily because the first story is about what actually happened to a relative of a Marvel employee.  I'm not sure it's even intended to be fiction, let alone Marvel Universe fiction.  The other stories are certainly fictional, but there's nothing to positively indicate that they're in continuity (or indeed that they're not).

However, since none of the characters are recurring and most of them aren't even named, it's really an academic question; I can't see it ever having a bearing on the Chronology Project unless somebody actually references the book in a later issue, which would in itself resolve the issue.

			*	*	*

Re: A Moment of Silence
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 16, 2003 at 21:40:35:
In Reply to: Re: A Moment of Silence
posted by Paul O'Brien on July 16, 2003 at 17:13:54:

> I don't think it's MEANT to be canon, primarily because the first story is about what actually happened to a relative of a Marvel employee.  I'm not sure it's even intended to be fiction, let along Marvel Universe fiction.  The other stories are certainly fictional, but there's nothing to positively indicate that they're in continuity (or indeed that they're not).

Well, Marvel employees themselves have appeared in continuity, so it's not unreasonable to consider relatives of Marvel employees to be canon characters in the MU.  And I think the first three of the four stories depict real people.

> However, since none of the characters are recurring and most of them aren't even named, it's really an academic question; I can't see it ever having a bearing on the Chronology Project unless somebody actually references the book in a later issue, which would in itself resolve the issue.

Unless you want a complete character listing, including fully named folks (and there are a few in this comic) who make one and only one appearance.  I've gone ahead and added these stories to the new draft of the Marvel calendar on the appropriate dates.  After some thought, I'm taking the "canon-unless-proven-otherwise" approach on this one.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Daredevil: Yellow
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 13, 2003 at 07:56:57:

I notice that DD:Y is listed between DD2 8 and 9.  I assume that this "appearance" is Matt Murdock's narrative to the deceased Karen Page that runs throughout the entire 4-issue series.  (I only have issue #2.)  If so, this would make every other reference to DD:Y a flashback, and DD:Y should be listed issue by issue between DD2 8 and 9.  Is this correct?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil: Yellow
Posted by Kevin  on July 14, 2003 at 16:48:30:
In Reply to: Daredevil: Yellow
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 13, 2003 at 07:56:57:

Actually, it was a 6 issue miniseries.  And you're right.  It should be listed as 

DD2 8
DD:Y 1
DD:Y 2
DD:Y 3
DD:Y 4
DD:Y 5
DD:Y 6
DD2 9

Unless I'm mistaken.  Actaully, weren't some people concerned about whether this miniseries was canon or not?  Or was it ruled that the Man Without Fear miniseries is the one which isn't canon.  

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil: Yellow
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 14, 2003 at 21:34:46:
In Reply to: Re: Daredevil: Yellow
posted by Kevin  on July 14, 2003 at 16:48:30:

I think it was Man Without Fear that was not canon.  The MCP has many entries for DD:Y in Daredevil's early chronology.  Some of them have an "FB" notation, but I think all of them should.

--Paul

			*	*	*

X-Men/Alpha Flight II
Posted by David Hall on July 13, 2003 at 10:55:06:

Quesion: Why in the X-Men's chronology is X-Men/Alpha Flight II listed as occuring after the Wolverine LS and before x-men 172?  Wolverine is in Japan during this period, not Westchester.

It makes more sense for these issues to occur after X-Men 168, and before the Wolverine LS.

Dave

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 13, 2003 at 21:29:12:
In Reply to: X-Men/Alpha Flight II
posted by David Hall on July 13, 2003 at 10:55:06:

Although I don't have the time to follow up right now, here are my notes, to stimulate further discussion...

X-MEN/ALPHA FLIGHT #1
One day; at first glance, it would seem that this story occurs sometime between UX 167 and 168, but since it occurs after AF 4 (16-22), it must occur between W 4 and UX 172 -- in that case, Scott must be back visiting from Alaska -- although he would have met Madelyne by now and his empty feelings would be unexplained, Logan must be back visiting from Japan -- perhaps to personally announce his engagement -- and Rogues absence is explained in Rogue v2.

Don't know if that helps or not.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II
Posted by David Hall on July 14, 2003 at 13:21:57:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 13, 2003 at 21:29:12:

Pual I will look at AF 4 probably tomorrow, to check this out.  However, from memory, Logan sent his engagement via a card, and the x-men didn't see him again until they went to Japan. (I think they remark on how it's been a while since they've seen him.)

X-Men/AF II occurs before Scott meets Madelyne, otherwise he probably wouldn't be visting Jean's grave (with Logan no less)

I believe that this story occurs between pages of Uncanny X-Men #168, specifically between the last two pages, before Scott takes his holiday in Alaska and meets Maddy.

I thought the consensus was that Rogue Vol.2 is Not Cannonical, as Jean is alive in that series. (Haven't read it yet myself to know.)

I will have to look at all the relevant issues to develop my line of thought further on this one..... (Personally if it comes down to a choice between believing taht the fb to AF4 is wrong in this LS, or that Claremont got it wrong in UXM 268-272, and Wolverine 1-4, I'll go with the AF FB being wrong.)

Dave

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II
Posted by David Hall on July 14, 2003 at 19:44:48:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II
posted by David Hall on July 14, 2003 at 13:21:57:

Paul,

I see nothing in AF 4 that places this story in chronology between w4 and x-men 172.  

In W4 The last page is of the card that Logan sends to the X-Men, and them sitting around smiling at it.  Logan DID NOT return to New York to give them the news in person.  In X-men 172, Logan does NOT even know that Rogue is on the team.  No one has told him, and he would have found out if he had been back in NEw York.

It messes too many things up chronolgy wise to have this series occur betwen W 4 & Xmen 172.

Scott has clearly not met Madelyne yet, Logan is clearly not getting ready to marry Mariko yet.  If they had/were, the whole scene at Jean's grave would be completely different.

Nothing in AF 4 changes any of the X-Men chronology, and Rogue V.2 is non cannon.

I propose moving X-Men/AF II to in between pages of XMen 168.  I'll post the character corrections in my next reply.

Dave

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II - Proposed Corrections
Posted by David Hall on July 14, 2003 at 20:22:29:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II
posted by David Hall on July 14, 2003 at 19:44:48:

Wolverine
UX 168
W 1
M/GN 5
* X&AF2 1 (moved)
* X&AF2 2 (moved)
W 1
W 2
W 3
W 4
UX 172

Cyclops
UX 168
M/GN 5
* X&AF2 1 (moved)
* X&AF2 2 (moved)
UX 168 (Note: The MCP already supports my theory about a gap between ux 168 and the last page of it, where Scott meets Maddy, as the Graphic Novel occurs in this gap.)
UX 170
UX 171
W 4
UX 172

Colossus, Storm, Nightcrawler (all 3 have the same chronology here)
UX 168
M/GN 5
* X&AF2 1  (moved)
* X&AF2 2 (moved)
UX 169
UX 170
UX 171
NM 7
W 4
UX 172

Shadowcat
UX 168
M/GN 5
* X&AF2 1 (moved)
* X&AF2 2 (moved)
UX 169
UX 170
UX 171
W 4
UX 172

Professor X
UX 168
M/GN 5
* X&AF2 1 (moved)
* X&AF2 2 (moved)
UX 169
UX 171
NM 5
NM 6
NM 7
NM 8
UX 173

Basically, all I have done is move the X-Men/Alpha Flight II LS to where it belongs, after the X-Men Graphic Novel.  If you look at the X-Men (and Wolverine LS )Issues in question, this makes the most sense.  Also there is nothing (that I have found)in AF 4 that chages the order of this LS relative to the X-Men.

(Does any one disagree?)

David

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II - Proposed Corrections
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 14, 2003 at 21:32:01:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II - Proposed Corrections
posted by David Hall on July 14, 2003 at 20:22:29:

> Does any one disagree?

Your summary does make sense, as far as the X-Men go.

Not that I don't disagree so much as caution you that this may be an example where you need to look not only at what makes sense for one book (say, X-Men), but for the entire Marvel Universe.

Again, I can't delve into this at the moment, but the key is that I think (for some reason)that this series must occur after AF 4.  And AF 2 and 3 crossover with FF 259-260, and FF 254 crosses over with A 232, and there are Dr. Strange and Defenders chronologies to factor in here -- a big spaghetti of crossover appearances occurs around this time, so placement of one series affects another and, in the end, all characters' chronologies must make sense.  Russ and I used clues in the Official Indexes regarding before and after appearances to try to figure all this out.  Granted, the indexes themselves or our interpretation of them might be flawed, but if anyone out there can get this portion of the chronology to look fine for all involved, that would be great.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II - Proposed Corrections
Posted by David Hall on July 14, 2003 at 22:42:54:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II - Proposed Corrections
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 14, 2003 at 21:32:01:

I can't disagree with you (since I don't have those books), except to say that in fitting in X-Men/AF II, we should have to look at X-Men and Alpha Flight comics as our primary sources.  The current MCP listing makes no sense, when it comes to X-Men chronology, hence it must be incorrect.  In this particular case, books like FF and Avengers crossovers are the secondary sources, that need to be made to fit into the primary ones, not the other way around.  Clearly as far as the X-Men are concerned this LS happens between M/GN 5 and W4.  For Alpha Flight, it clearly happens between AF 4 and 5.  Any FF/AF crossovers really don't change this as far as AF or X-Men characters chronologies go.

(I also propose that if such analysis (of FF, Avengers, etc.) proves that this LS has anything wrong with it than it is probably the refernence to AF 4, rather than the numerous X-Men chronology clues, as there are so many in the LS, as opposed to one AF reference clue.)

By the way I would be quite interested if anyone could explain in detail the issues you mention.  Thanks Paul.

Dave

			*	*	*

Major FF Correction needed
Posted by David Hall on July 15, 2003 at 02:32:49:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II - Proposed Corrections
posted by David Hall on July 14, 2003 at 22:42:54:

Hey!  I just noticed that in the MCP that UX 167 is listed incorrectly in all 4 FF character's listings.  In UX 167, Gladiator says " Upon Arrival Here. II unintentionally came into contact with the Fantastic Four."  The Chronology box in the corner says * FF's #249 and #250.  Meaning, that UX 167 comes AFTER FF #249 and #250.  This is correct in Gladiator's listing:

FF 249
FF 250
ROM@ 4
FF 261
FF 262
UX 155
UX 157
UX 167

and wrong in the FF's:
UX 167
COC 1
COC 2-BTS
COC 3-BTS
H2 277
H2 278
H2 279
M/TIO 92
M/TIO@ 7
M/TIO 96
M/TIO 97
TG 23-FB
FF 249
FF 250

I can't speak too much for FF chronology, but UX 167 does occur AFTER FF 249 & 250. (And it can't occur both before and after those two issues.)

By the way, Gladiator's listing has FF 261 & 262, listed before UX 155.  I don't think that can be right.

Also I notice that the chronology box in FF 261 referes to FF #259-260 and Af #4 as having taken place in the past 24 hours.

Is there any way that these issues can take place in the gap in UX 168?  Is there really any reason why that gap couldn't be say two months, enough time to fit a lot of FF's in including 259-262?

By the way I should point out that Lilandra's MCP listing says:
UX 138
FF 261
FF 262
UX 154
UX 156
UX 157
UX 158
UX 161
UX 162
UX 163
UX 164
UX 165
UX 166
XCAL 116-FB
UX 167

This is wrong, I'm sure that FF #261 & 262 have to occur after ux #167 for reasons stated above.

The dialog in FF #262, says that Sue's encounter with Lilandra was "some months ago"(see uX 167) and Sue also says "On the night before we entered the Negative Zone (chronolgy box says See FF 251-256.)  Which implies that UX 167 occurs between FF 250 and 251.

(Either way, I postulate a several month gap in UX 168, wherein occurs any FF's that occur after UX 167 thru #262)

David

			*	*	*

Re: Major FF Correction needed
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 15, 2003 at 07:06:54:
In Reply to: Major FF Correction needed
posted by David Hall on July 15, 2003 at 02:32:49:

I think Marvel refuted that reference by Gladiator.  According to the Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 2 #3, Gladiator II's next appearance after UX 167 is FF 249.

To reinforce that, Mr. Fantastic's last appearance before UX 165 is listed as FF 250, but then in issue #5 of the Index, they claim that was an error and Reed's last appearance before UX 165 is noted as FF 248 instead.

Dave, if you're a fan of the X-Men from this time period, you should seek out the five-issue Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 2.  Great stuff there!

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Major FF Correction needed
Posted by David Hall on July 15, 2003 at 11:15:52:
In Reply to: Re: Major FF Correction needed
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 15, 2003 at 07:06:54:

I have the Index.  If it's correct than references by both Claremont (UX 167) and Bryne (FF 261) to UX 167 occuring between FF 250 & 251 are wrong.  I'm not sure that the guy who wrote the index knows more about the FF and X-Men Chronology than Claremont and Bryne....

However, even if we were to agree on that point (I'm reserving judgement for the moment) and that the MCP is correct on Gladiator/ FF apps. then I would like to point to A bit of Gladiator's chronology that says this:
UX 137
FF 249
FF 250
ROM@ 4
FF 261
FF 262
UX 155
UX 157
UX 167

If FF 261 and 262 occur before UX 167, then so does the FF 259-260/AF 4 crossover.( And then X-Men/AF II being between pages of UX 168,present no problem to the FF chronology.)

If FF 261 and 262 happen after UX 167, then Gladiator's chronology needs to be revised.

Dave

			*	*	*

X-Men Index
Posted by Administrator on July 15, 2003 at 17:25:12:
In Reply to: Re: Major FF Correction needed
posted by David Hall on July 15, 2003 at 11:15:52:

> I have the Index.  If it's correct than references by both Claremont (UX 167) and Bryne (FF 261) to UX 167 occuring between FF 250 & 251 are wrong.  I'm not sure that the guy who wrote the index knows more about the FF and X-Men Chronology than Claremont and Bryne....

Well, it's the Official Marvel Index. While both Paul and I (and the indexes themselves) have admitted they're not immune from making mistakes, I think they *do* know more about FF and X-Men chronology than Claremont and Byrne....

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men Index
Posted by Dvaid Hall on July 15, 2003 at 20:02:59:
In Reply to: X-Men Index
posted by Administrator on July 15, 2003 at 17:25:12:

Hmmn, I'm not sure about that in this case, BUT I am pretty sure that collectively the people on this board know more about Marvel chronology than Claremont and Bryne (or the people who do the Official Marvel Indexes.)  One thing I like about this board is that we can debate stuff like this.

By the way, Russ, since Paul doesn't have the time right now to go into specifics, would you tell me which books I need to read to be able to debate with Paul (and anyone else) about X-Men/Alpha Flight II.

I have every X-men, New Mutant, NEW Defender book.

I just picked up (but haven't read all of) FF 248-265.

Could you also explain to me the basic problem, of how and why it would screw up FF chronolgy to have X-M/AF II in the order in which it makes most narrative sense for the X-Men?

I need someone to point me in the right direction.

If the problem is only a difference of time, the gap in UX 168 can be enlarged to encompress any number of FF and AF issues that could concievably fit.  (I always was under the impression that FF 259-262/ AF 4) occured sometime in that gap myself. (As does M/GN 5, the 1st part of Wolv 1, an I believe X-Men/AF II)

I know more than enough about X-Men chronology, but not FF.

Thanks!

Dave

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men Index
Posted by Dimadick on July 16, 2003 at 13:16:34:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men Index
posted by Dvaid Hall on July 15, 2003 at 20:02:59:

There seem to be others who agree with your placement of the X-Men and Fantastic Four issues. Uncanny X-Men.Net's offers detailed summaries of Uncany X-Men issues between #160 and #224 accompanied with explanatory notes.

Their notes on issue #167 include the fact that "Gladiator encountered the Fantastic Four, while he was chasing some Skrulls, in Fantastic Four (1st series) #249-250." 

Their summary of the issue states that Gladiator informed Lilandra that "Upon his arrival on Earth, he unintentionally came in conflict with the Fantastic Four. Later, he learned that they had recently encountered Galactus. The World-devourer had come to Earth to die, but Richards intervened, restored him to health and gave him a new herald. Lilandra is seething with rage." 

The summary continues with the following paragraph: "Somewhat later, a hologram of Lilandra, in full regal warrior armor, is transmitted into the bedroom of Reed and Sue Richards in the Baxter Building. Haughtily, Lilandra tells them that she has been informed of their crime of saving Galactus - he who is a threat to all that lives. Should Galactus once more consume planets known to the Shi'ar, Richards will be, in part, held responsible and tried to the full extent of Shi'ar law. The Torch and the Thing enter, alarmed by the racket. Lilandra points out that it is about time that Earthlings acknowledge their responsibility to their fellow beings, before the transmission ends, leaving the FF, who do not take her threat seriously."

The notes inform that:"Reed Richards saved Galactus' life in Fantastic Four (1st series) #242-244. The consequences of this act and Lilandra's threat can be seen in Fantastic Four (1st series) #261-262, when Reed Richards goes on trial."

See:http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=1083 for the summarie itself.

But that is what you also suggest, isn't it?

The notes for issue #168 on the same site comment that "Wolverine's vacation in the Canadian Rockies does not end in solitude but into a larger adventure, as chronicled in the Wolverine limited series." The summarie of the issue seems to indicate that it is the first time that Cyclops, Havoc and Corsair meet Madelyne Pryor.

I have my own copies for the following issues starting with #169. After revisiting them I was left with the impression that issue #172 is the first time that Wolverine and the X-Men meet for some time. They even comment on their correspondence including their invitation to the marriage. Concerning his reaction to Rogue it seems natural. She only joined the team on issue #171 and the rest of the X-Men were quite hostile and suspicious of her too.

As for Scott and Madeline in issue #170 they had their first date after knowing each other for "weeks". Scott confesses to Madeline his story with Jean Grey for the first time during this date but he still feels confused.

Wolverine was still in Japan at least in issue #174 though he has joined the other X-Men in the Mansion by issue #175.

The same site has summaries and notes for Alpha Flight issues #1 to #14. See:http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showfaq.asp?fldAuto=98. Notes for issue #4 include: "Susan Storm a.k.a. the Invisible Woman is married to Reed Richards, a.k.a. Mr. Fantastic, who has been missing since Fantastic Four (1st series) #258. In #261-262 it will be revealed that he was abducted by the ShiAr to be put on trial for saving Galactus life earlier on.". This seems to follow Lilandra's threat on Uncanny X-Men #167.

I have to admit that your placement of the issues seems more natural to me but I would like to see someone with a working knowledge on the Fantastic Four comment on their chronology at the time.

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men Index
Posted by David Hall on July 16, 2003 at 13:58:46:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men Index
posted by Dimadick on July 16, 2003 at 13:16:34:

I agree with you 100%, I would like someone who knows more about the FF, to comment.  I know X-Men.  It seems to me that in UX 167, Gladiator is commenting on the events of FF 249-250 (where he fights the FF.)  How possibly can he do this, if he hasn't fought them yet?  It's common sense, to me.  But then I am only beginning to look at FF chronology of this period.  Other people here should know more.

Dave

Oh, and Russ, as far as the Official Index to the X-Men,  I accept that it is a highly accurate source for the main X-Men characters chronology, BUT I just don't believe that Murray Ward took the time to correctly analyze the before and after apps. of every character who has ever met the X-Men.  For example, he does not give a listing for Gladiator as to where FF 261 & 262 is his next. app.  (Lilandra too, but she makes New Mutants apps in this time frame, which obscures this issue.)

If Mr. Ward has made any mistakes, they are likely to be for characters who are guest stars in X-Men.  It's too bad that he didn't do an offical FF index.

Dave

			*	*	*

X-Men Read Guide v3
Posted by bsl on July 13, 2003 at 22:43:24:

v2 is now available, check it out at: http://xmenguide.3utilities.com

			*	*	*

you forgot someone!
Posted by Ray Allman on July 15, 2003 at 17:01:59:

Where is Allure.

			*	*	*

Re: you forgot someone!
Posted by Jeph! on July 17, 2003 at 12:39:39:
In Reply to: you forgot someone!
posted by Ray Allman on July 15, 2003 at 17:01:59:

Uhm ... WHO is Allure?

How about giving us a little more to go on?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Prediction about upcoming Thor storylines...
Posted by Kevin  on July 15, 2003 at 17:39:53:

Just a small prediction:  I just finished reading Thor Vol. 2 #66, and after hearing for the last 2-3 years in the Thor book predictions that Thor's going to try and take over Earth, it's become apparent to me that we're getting set up for another major storyline, similar in nature to the Kang War.  Yes, I can see it now: another case of 1 title having a world changing event, (like the Kang War in the Avengers) and it won't be referenced in ANY other Marvel book, leaving us chronology workers scratching our heads trying to figure out where to find a place to squeeze in a period where Thor rules the Earth.  May there be mercy on the souls of us poor chronology workers in the months to come.  ;-)

			*	*	*

Re: Prediction about upcoming Thor storylines...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 15, 2003 at 20:37:57:
In Reply to: Prediction about upcoming Thor storylines...
posted by Kevin  on July 15, 2003 at 17:39:53:

I agree, Kevin.  I'm anticipating that we'll need a span of time on the calendar to deal with the major Thor War coming.  Right now, Thor issues appear ahead of other currently published stories on my draft calendar, largely because of the amount of time that seems to have passed in T2 -- that 100-day stretch a while back, then time for Asgardianism to become a major religion.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Prediction about upcoming Thor storylines...
Posted by Kevin  on July 17, 2003 at 14:27:25:
In Reply to: Re: Prediction about upcoming Thor storylines...
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 15, 2003 at 20:37:57:

Yeah, as I recall, most of the marvel titles right now, (as far as the calender is concerned) are in the Autumn or Winter.  To be more specific, Daredevil is in the Fall right now, the Xmen books are tentatively in the winter, and I think Spidey's around those last few months in the year as well.  Meanwhile, Hulk, the Avengers, and Thor are right now in the Winter/Spring of the next year, if I'm not mistaken.  

We'll just need to see where everything stands in a few months when we get really deep into what we'll tentatively call, "the Thor War", (which'll probably climax around issue #75).

			*	*	*

Re: Prediction about upcoming Thor storylines...
Posted by Jeph! on July 17, 2003 at 22:49:14:
In Reply to: Re: Prediction about upcoming Thor storylines...
posted by Kevin  on July 17, 2003 at 14:27:25:

> as I recall, most of the marvel titles right now, (as far as the calender is concerned) are in the Autumn or Winter.  To be more specific, Daredevil is in the Fall right now, the Xmen books are tentatively in the winter...

Heh.  What you mean is, the X-Books are trumpeting far and wide that it's currently summer, and we're doing our level best to keep our heads down and ignore it...

-Jeph!
"Me?  I read 'Garfield'."

			*	*	*

Re: Prediction about upcoming Thor storylines...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 18, 2003 at 06:49:58:
In Reply to: Re: Prediction about upcoming Thor storylines...
posted by Jeph! on July 17, 2003 at 22:49:14:

> > as I recall, most of the marvel titles right now, (as far as the calender is concerned) are in the Autumn or Winter.  To be more specific, Daredevil is in the Fall right now, the Xmen books are tentatively in the winter...

> Heh.  What you mean is, the X-Books are trumpeting far and wide that it's currently summer, and we're doing our level best to keep our heads down and ignore it...

Not "we," just I.  And not keeping my head down, so much as waiting and seeing how the X-books are going to handle Christmas this year...

Also bear in mind that if we decide that it's best to move the X-books ahead to June (where all clues indicate it should be), we'll have to account for both the length of Heather Hudson's pregnancy and the length of time Havok's been up and around...

Remember, Jeph, current books are all tentative.  I'm certainly willing to move the X-books if we can deal with the above and don't encounter holiday syndrome.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Prediction about upcoming Thor storylines...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on July 16, 2003 at 17:10:16:
In Reply to: Prediction about upcoming Thor storylines...
posted by Kevin  on July 15, 2003 at 17:39:53:

> Just a small prediction:  I just finished reading Thor Vol. 2 #66, and after hearing for the last 2-3 years in the Thor book predictions that Thor's going to try and take over Earth, it's become apparent to me that we're getting set up for another major storyline, similar in nature to the Kang War. 

Without giving any spoilers, a quick glance at the solicitations for upcoming issues will tell you whether or not you're on the right track.

			*	*	*

Re: Prediction about upcoming Thor storylines...
Posted by Kevin  on July 17, 2003 at 14:34:14:
In Reply to: Re: Prediction about upcoming Thor storylines...
posted by Paul O'Brien on July 16, 2003 at 17:10:16:

That's just the thing: I've checked the latest Previews, and it's CERTAIN that this is where the book is heading.  I believe it all kicks off around Issue #68.  And that's not really giving away any spoilers: it's been hinted at very strongly in the Thor book for the last 2 to 3 years that this "war" is coming.  The predictions of this war have been given by no less than The Watcher, Odin, (before his demise), and Zarrko.  

My only real point in posting this "prediction" is to say it'll probably be like the "Kang War" and not be referrenced in ANY other Marvel book.  

			*	*	*

RED SKULL II...JOE ROBERTSON...MARTHA ROBERTSON
Posted by Arthur Stein on July 16, 2003 at 15:45:36:

new entries marked **

RED SKULL II/JOHANN SCHMIDT
CA 108-BTS
**CA 114
CA 115
CA 116
CA 117
CA 118
**CM 17   (in Captain Americas body)
CA 119
**CA 128
CA 129
..  ..  ..  ..  ..  
CA 212
**CA 219  on monitor Page 16/2, 16/4
**CA 220-FB Pg 2/5  3/2
CA 226
..  ..  ..  ..  ..  
CA 298
**CA 299
CA 300
..  ..  ..  ..  ..  
CA 301
**CA 326     ??  okay, was that or wasnt that the Red Skulls disembodied consciousness that attacked Dr. Faustus?  Your call.
CA 350/2

ROBERTSON, JOE
M/TU 79
**DD 160    Pg 17/1.  This placement of DD160 (after M/TU 79) follows where is lies in Mary Jane Watson-Parkers listing.  Spidermans listing has DD160 positioned between ASM 200 and ASM 201; but, as Joe Robertson had quit the Bugle in ASM 197, not returning until ASM 202, it seems to make more sense later in the chronology. So additionally the listing in SPIDER-MAN  should maybe be relocated to follow M/TU 79 as well. 

In the same vein,  Joe Robertsons appearance in M/PRM 49 is shown as occurring during the time period (between ASM 197 and ASM 201) when Joe was not at the Bugle. This scene shows Joe and Jonah Jameson working together harmoniously, with JJJ in good sprits (pg 11/2); Pg 11/1 shows Joe sitting casually on the edge of Jonahs desk.  As the two men are angry with each other starting in ASM 192 following JJJs orders for Joe to fire Peter Parker, I feel this entry should lie PRIOR to ASM 192. There are probably a few spots it could slot but I just placed it between ASM 191 and ASM 192, as this is the closest to its current placement.  Same relocation for the M/PRM 49 listing for  J. JONAH JAMESON   
CA 250.  

ROBERTSON, MARTHA
ASM 156
**ASM@ 18(unnamed; seated beside Joe at the ceremony, with her hand over his arm; Last page)
PPTSS 117 

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#103

			*	*	*

Agents of SHIELD questions
Posted by RLG on July 16, 2003 at 20:12:55:

  I noticed that Clay Quartermain and Jasper Sitwell have made appearances in the Marvel Universe after their deaths (by being replaced by advanced LMDs) in the NICK FURY vs SHIELD mini-series.  I have the various issues that they have since appeared in, but cannot find an explanation for their "resurrections."  

Does anyone know?

Also, I could not find SHIELD agent Jack Rollins in the MCP.  He plays a major role in the mini-series (or at least his LMD Deltite does.)  I would be happy to go through mini-series and document his appearances, but I do not know about the character enough to say if he has ever been in any other SHIELD stories.

			*	*	*

Re: Agents of SHIELD questions
Posted by Don Campbell on July 21, 2003 at 11:17:45:
In Reply to: Agents of SHIELD questions
posted by RLG on July 16, 2003 at 20:12:55:

The SHIELD agents who were replaced by Deltites during the NICK FURY VS. SHIELD mini-series were supposedly killed during the process whereby the Deltites absorbed their memories.  However, it was later revealed that they had actually been placed in suspended animation far beneath the SHIELD HQ in NYC and that small devices had been implanted in their brains to make them all believe that they were, and always had been, loyal followers of Baron Strucker and Hydra.  Nick was led to them by the Deltites known as Red and Lump in NICK FURY, AGENT OF SHIELD #43 but readers saw glimpses of them an issue or two earlier.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Simultaneous Scenes
Posted by captamr on July 16, 2003 at 22:53:04:

As usual, I hesitate to go where Im not totally sure. 

Spider-Man, Beyonder, Puma, and last but not least, Mary Jane Watson all appear in the epic Secret Wars II crossover ASM 273 continuing on into PPTSS 111. Heres the dilemma, ASM 273 ends with Puma being sent to Japan by the Beyonder (instantaneously) and returning in the last two pages with all concerned characters. This is a simultaneous scene present in PPTSS 111 but not directly following the end of ASM 273. The beginning of #111 has Puma and the Beyonder in Japan and Spider-Man tries to stop a robbery escape. The issue proceeds to the simultaneous scene referred to above. 

Now the listings for each character just list the appearances in each issue, but I would contend that a little more detail is needed. All characters first appear in ASM 273. Spider-Man, Beyonder, and Puma then follow in the first part of PPTSS 111 although in separate scenes. The characters all unite again in ASM 273 and PPTSS 111 for the simultaneous scene in Peters apartment and the story continues in #111 with everyone except Mary Jane. The Beyonder crosses into other story lines and his listing would be the most questionable:

BEYONDER
NM 36
ASM 273
UX 202
DEF 152
PPTSS 111**
ASM 273 ~ PPTSS 111**
PPTSS 111
SWII 8

SPIDER-MAN and PUMA
ASM 273
PPTSS 111**
ASM 273 ~ PPTSS 111**
PPTSS 111

And finally Mary Jane who isnt even listed in #111:

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE
ASM 273
PPTSS 111**
ASM 273 ~ PPTSS 111**
ASM 274

Charlie

			*	*	*

Welsh superheroes???
Posted by tommy boy on July 18, 2003 at 00:05:19:

Can anyone help me at all?

I`m looking for any info on any possible Welsh heroes/heroines. I`m at my wits end as pretty much every country of this small world has had a Marvel hero or villian EXCEPT us Welsh!!!

I have even been in touch with the guys at Marvel who, god bless `em, said Union Jack was Welsh, even though in many of the UJ bios I`ve seen say he`s English (methinks they were trying to make me happy).

I know that in Excalibur there was a Welsh police detective, but he was`nt exactly a superhero and in Dr Strange, he encountered a Welsh scholar who was alledgedly the Pendragon himself, but again not exactly a superhero, so it brings me to you guys and your vast knowledge of all things Marvel, to see if you can put my mind at rest.

Many thanks in advance

			*	*	*

your site
Posted by Logan on July 18, 2003 at 16:01:47:

I havent looked around yet that muchbut it looks pretty cool so far.

Just one thing - Im pretty sure Sub-Mariners first appearance was Marvel #1 the series that in the next issue changed to Marvel Mystery #2 where i believe an old character named prime was introduced.

			*	*	*

Re: your site
Posted by Dimadick on July 19, 2003 at 00:46:20:
In Reply to: your site posted by Logan  on July 18, 2003 at 16:01:47:

Not exactly. The Project correctly gives his first appearance in Motion Picture Funnies Weekly #1. It was a give-away comic book of eight pages. According to Don Markstein's Toonopedia it had a cover date of April, 1939. The story was reprinted in Marvel Comics #1 with the addition of four more pages. According to the Toonopedia it had a cover date of November, 1939. The issue also contained the first appearance of the Human Torch. Marvel Comics #1 is considered the first comic book published by the company which would later be named Marvel Comics. The second issue was indeed titled Msrvel  Mystery Comics #2. 

Namor's earliest appearance has probably made him Marvel's earliest character though he precedes the company itself.

For more on The Sub-Mariner see:http://www.toonopedia.com/subbie.htm<p>

			*	*	*

re: a info on allure
Posted by Ray Allman on July 18, 2003 at 19:58:18:

She was a villain of the hulk and her powers were in her eyes and she's goes by Allure or Miss Allure and her henchman is Crusher Creel on the "The Incredible Hulk".

			*	*	*

Re: all characters
Posted by Victor Vargas on July 18, 2003 at 20:12:06:

The people of the marvel chronology project should make a 1 page of chronology projects I was thinking one for marvel characters through A-Z without a comic chronology because I need the characters more than the comics which you made it for me all the comics in date but please a index of all characters and this site is impressive than I could've think of. 

			*	*	*

Re: all characters
Posted by Jimmy on July 19, 2003 at 12:46:02:
In Reply to: Re: all characters
posted by Victor Vargas on July 18, 2003 at 20:12:06:

Go to:

http://www.mycgiserver.com/~marvels/searchthemcp.htm

Press "Show all".

			*	*	*

New Warriors problem solved
Posted by French Thom on July 19, 2003 at 09:07:11:

Hi Russ, I don't know if that helped but I answered your question a few days ago, but I'm not sure you've seen it...

			*	*	*

Re: New Warriors problem solved
Posted by Russ on July 19, 2003 at 09:37:46:
In Reply to: New Warriors problem solved
posted by French Thom on July 19, 2003 at 09:07:11:

If you mean your reply of July 12, yes, I've seen it. Thanks.

			*	*	*

marvel new releases and the tsunami line
Posted by drew  on July 19, 2003 at 13:04:25:

i am curious if anybody else has begun placeing any of the many numerous new marvel releases. Not necessarily the appearances that would fit onto the current calender, but appearances that would fit into the established chronology. I know you were working on placeing human torch in earlier posts, but what about any of the others? I know the Kingpin series would have to be placed, and a few others. Also, some of the tsunami line is a bit iffy on whether or not its cannon. Is there any of them so far that you have decided for sure arent? OR are you mostly waiting for more issues to make your decision. I know the rule is cannon unless proven otherwise, but i am just curious if any of the other new series had been looked at for placement considerations or cannoninity. 

thanks,

drew

			*	*	*

Re: marvel new releases and the tsunami line
Posted by Kevin  on July 21, 2003 at 17:36:07:
In Reply to: marvel new releases and the tsunami line
posted by drew  on July 19, 2003 at 13:04:25:

The Kingpin and Namor titles take place in the past, so they would have a spot in the MCP somewhere, but I don't know where, since I don't currently get either title. All of the Tsunami titles are considered canon, as far as I know.  It's the MAX imprint line which often has questionable titles that may not be considered canon.

I for one am having trouble figuring out what titles are supposed to fall under the Tsunami line, or are just plain new titles.

For October's listings, they have in the Tsunami line the following books:

1. Venom
2. Mystique
3. Runaways
4. Sentinel
5. Namor 
6. Human Torch

Of which I don't get any of those titles.  But I thought New Mutants and the upcoming Emma Frost ongoing series were part of the Tsunami banner as well, but they're listed as just part of the Xmen titles...

I am getting the new Inhumans and Silver Surfer series though.

And there's a new Thanos and Hawkeye ongoing series coming out in October as well...man, is Marvel just giving a series to every character that has a mild fanbase?  I'm having flashbacks to the early 90's all over again...

			*	*	*

Re: marvel new releases and the tsunami line
Posted by drew on July 22, 2003 at 00:35:59:
In Reply to: Re: marvel new releases and the tsunami line
posted by Kevin  on July 21, 2003 at 17:36:07:

I've picked up all of them except for Mystique and Human Torch. I have no idea where to Even begin to place Namor. My Namor knowledge is a little lacking to say the least. The rest dont really take place in the past except for Kingpin and Emma Frost. (didnt pick up new mutants either.) and all of them look to me to be cannon except for maybe Venom. (depending on how the current arc finishes up and how they resolve the arc in spectacular spider-man.) 

was just curious to get some feed back from the rest of you. 

thanks,
drew

			*	*	*

This week's X-books
Posted by Paul O'Brien on July 20, 2003 at 09:10:35:

A couple of points to flag up here...

1.  NEW MUTANTS vol 2 #3: Magma is still comatose following the injuries she sustained in UNCANNY X-MEN #423.  This may well rule her out as being one of the generic blondes at the wedding of Alex and Lorna, depending on how long she stays that way.

2.  SPIDER-MAN/WOLVERINE: When the hell is this story supposed to be happening?  We've got Wolverine in his yellow costume, a scene which suggests (but doesn't say outright) that they didn't previously know one another's secret identity, and a prelude in the previous issue where Spider-Man had his teaching job from the current run on ASM.  I'm minded to ignore the bit about secret identities as a continuity error, since I could have sworn it's been done before.  But is it possible to shoehorn Wolverine's costume into making sense, or shall we just decide that he felt like wearing an old costume that day?

3.  UNCANNY X-MEN #428 seems to think that Nightcrawler is 20.  This seems awfully unlikely.

			*	*	*

Re: This week's X-books
Posted by French Thom on July 20, 2003 at 16:45:14:
In Reply to: This week's X-books
posted by Paul O'Brien on July 20, 2003 at 09:10:35:

> 3.  UNCANNY X-MEN #428 seems to think that Nightcrawler is 20.  This seems awfully unlikely.

Especially when we know that Kitty Pryde is now 18 (X-Men Unlimited #36 refers to her arrival in the X-Men as happening five years ago, and we know she was 13 and a half at that time), and that Kurt was already an adult when he got recruited by Prof. X. If five years happened since X-Men #138, at least 6 happened for Kurt, which sould be then, at least, 24... But he's more probably around 28 or 29... Maybe that Uncanny X-Men issue wanted to state he's 30...

			*	*	*

Re: This week's X-books
Posted by garbonzo on July 21, 2003 at 09:55:55:
In Reply to: Re: This week's X-books
posted by French Thom on July 20, 2003 at 16:45:14:

> > 3.  UNCANNY X-MEN #428 seems to think that Nightcrawler is 20.  This seems awfully unlikely.

> Maybe that Uncanny X-Men issue wanted to state he's 30...

Doubtful.  I think what we are going to be seeing here over the next few months/year is the generic aging of all the characters so that there are more potential relationships.  whereas before (a couple of years ago) Archangel would have been viewed as an adult and Husk would have been seen as a child (therefore not suitable for each other in their own eyes), they have now been given ages that appear to be just a few years apart (especially if we take into account the art from UX 427).  The de-aging of Nightcrawler seems to follow along this path.  As more (formerly) junior members are brought into the ranks, I think we are going to see some of the older members de-aging.  I mean, Emma Frost is only 27????? (X138).  We are in for a long summer of topical references!

			*	*	*

The horror's of de-aging...
Posted by Kevin  on July 21, 2003 at 17:13:10:
In Reply to: Re: This week's X-books
posted by garbonzo on July 21, 2003 at 09:55:55:

> > > 3.  UNCANNY X-MEN #428 seems to think that Nightcrawler is 20.  This seems awfully unlikely.

> > Maybe that Uncanny X-Men issue wanted to state he's 30...

> Doubtful.  I think what we are going to be seeing here over the next few months/year is the generic aging of all the characters so that there are more potential relationships.  whereas before (a couple of years ago) Archangel would have been viewed as an adult and Husk would have been seen as a child (therefore not suitable for each other in their own eyes), they have now been given ages that appear to be just a few years apart (especially if we take into account the art from UX 427).  The de-aging of Nightcrawler seems to follow along this path.  As more (formerly) junior members are brought into the ranks, I think we are going to see some of the older members de-aging.  I mean, Emma Frost is only 27????? (X138).  We are in for a long summer of topical references!

God, I hope not.  Look, Paige, (Husk) was 15 or 16 when she joined Generation X, right?  Well, surely she's 20 or 21 years old by now.  C'mon, she's got to be 'legal' for Warren to date.  I'd hate to think they're de-aging Warren, and turning Husk back into a kid as well...

I think that they had that blurb about '20 years ago' in the latest issue of Xmen to make it seem like Mystique isn't that old.  They're trying to turn her into another, 'hot chick' in her own comic, so it's best not to clue the fanboys into the very real possibility that she's old enough to be their grandmother.  :-)

Also, if we're to take that '20 years ago' as fact, then Nightcrawler would probably be only 19 years old, considering he hadn't even been concieved at the start of the issue. Blah....

			*	*	*

Re: The horror's of de-aging...
Posted by garbonzo on July 21, 2003 at 20:30:43:
In Reply to: The horror's of de-aging...
posted by Kevin  on July 21, 2003 at 17:13:10:

> I'd hate to think they're de-aging Warren, and turning Husk back into a kid as well...

It is not so much that they are making Husk a kid again, as they are homogenizing all the X-men age-wise.  That way there are plenty of new relationship potentials between the characters without too much consideration for age.  For Kurt to be 19 is preposteroous.  Just as it is ridiculous that Paige and Warren are anywhere near the same age.  I say we chalk it up to shape-shifting skrulls, S.H.I.E.L.D. issued body doubles, or everyone was cloned and the adventures we have been reading about since Claremont left were all adventures of the clones, and our real X-Men have been wandering aimlessly about the countryside.  Hey, C'mon, it could work!

			*	*	*

Re: The horror's of de-aging...
Posted by Jeph! on July 22, 2003 at 14:01:25:
In Reply to: Re: The horror's of de-aging...
posted by garbonzo on July 21, 2003 at 20:30:43:

>  I say we chalk it up to shape-shifting skrulls, S.H.I.E.L.D. issued body doubles, or everyone was cloned and the adventures we have been reading about since Claremont left were all adventures of the clones, and our real X-Men have been wandering aimlessly about the countryside.  Hey, C'mon, it could work!

Uhm ... how about we just read the books, enjoy the books, and ignore any date references that are clearly incorrect?

-Jeph!
PS - part of the PLOT about Warren and Paige dating is that they're NOT anywhere near the same age.  That's the whole idea -- other characters mention the age gap -- so stop worrying that they're "making everyone the same age"...

			*	*	*

Re: The horror's of de-aging...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on July 22, 2003 at 07:22:20:
In Reply to: The horror's of de-aging...
posted by Kevin  on July 21, 2003 at 17:13:10:

> I think that they had that blurb about '20 years ago' in the latest issue of Xmen to make it seem like Mystique isn't that old. 

Also, if they go much further back, the scenes with IVF become impossible.

			*	*	*

Re: This week's X-books
Posted by Paul O'Brien on July 20, 2003 at 19:56:38:
In Reply to: This week's X-books
posted by Paul O'Brien on July 20, 2003 at 09:10:35:

Re-reading, I realise that the flashback at the beginning of SPIDER-MAN/WOLVERINE #2 is supposed to be taking place over twelve years ago (which would suggest the Marvel Universe has been around for some twenty years given that he's in X-Men costume - but whatever, we can just ignore that and take it as a generic "some time ago").

God, what a mess of a story.

			*	*	*

Re: This week's X-books
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 20, 2003 at 20:20:00:
In Reply to: Re: This week's X-books
posted by Paul O'Brien on July 20, 2003 at 19:56:38:

I don't have this series.  The "twelve years ago" reference may actually be a good one, at least in my view of 20 or so years since FF 1.

But regardless of absolute time, can anyone pidgeonhole the various scenes and flashbacks vis-a-vis the characters' relative chronologies?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: This week's X-books
Posted by Sean Curtin on July 29, 2003 at 16:53:59:
In Reply to: Re: This week's X-books
posted by Paul O'Brien on July 20, 2003 at 19:56:38:

> Re-reading, I realise that the flashback at the beginning of SPIDER-MAN/WOLVERINE #2 is supposed to be taking place over twelve years ago (which would suggest the Marvel Universe has been around for some twenty years given that he's in X-Men costume - but whatever, we can just ignore that and take it as a generic "some time ago").

Maybe it's meant to take place twelve years ago publication-wise; in other words, concurrently with stories published in 1991.  Which would make some sense, as Logan (literally) sniffed out Peter's secret identity in the storyline that ran in Spider-Man #8-12, so this could fit in some time before S-M 8.

-- 
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: This week's X-books
Posted by Jeph! on July 29, 2003 at 22:53:21:
In Reply to: Re: This week's X-books
posted by Sean Curtin on July 29, 2003 at 16:53:59:

> Logan (literally) sniffed out Peter's secret identity in the storyline that ran in Spider-Man #8-12, so this could fit in some time before S-M 8.

Actually, Logan sniffed out Peter's true identity in the "Spider-Man vs. Wolverine" one-shot, back in 1987.  Although I'm not sure that Logan got his NAME then, he certainly learned that Peter was a reporter from New York -- and I think he also learned of his affiliation with (the late) Ned Leeds.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

But Peter's a teacher
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 30, 2003 at 21:36:49:
In Reply to: Re: This week's X-books
posted by Jeph! on July 29, 2003 at 22:53:21:

I'd be all for placing this story long ago, except Peter is clearly shown to be a high-school teacher in issue #1.  Argh.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: This week's X-books
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 20, 2003 at 20:24:59:
In Reply to: This week's X-books
posted by Paul O'Brien on July 20, 2003 at 09:10:35:

> A couple of points to flag up here...

> 1.  NEW MUTANTS vol 2 #3: Magma is still comatose following the injuries she sustained in UNCANNY X-MEN #423.  This may well rule her out as being one of the generic blondes at the wedding of Alex and Lorna, depending on how long she stays that way.

I've placed UX 425 after NM2 3, albeit only days after, so there's a chance that Magma is present at the wedding.  We'll see how her story plays out...

> 3.  UNCANNY X-MEN #428 seems to think that Nightcrawler is 20.  This seems awfully unlikely.

I cringed when I read that reference.  Unless Kurt contracted the same condition afflicting Franklin Richards, it's best to ignore it.

--Paul

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Re: This week's X-books
Posted by Peter Fabricius on July 21, 2003 at 01:26:29:
In Reply to: Re: This week's X-books
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 20, 2003 at 20:24:59:

> > 3.  UNCANNY X-MEN #428 seems to think that Nightcrawler is 20.  This seems awfully unlikely.

> I cringed when I read that reference.  Unless Kurt contracted the same condition afflicting Franklin Richards, it's best to ignore it.

And remember, Uncanny X-Men Annual 4, from 1980, has a big 21 on Kurt's birthday cake.

This is just after Kitty joined, so if she is now 18, he should be 26.

Peter

			*	*	*

Re: This week's X-books
Posted by Kevin  on July 21, 2003 at 17:21:07:
In Reply to: Re: This week's X-books
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 20, 2003 at 20:24:59:

> > A couple of points to flag up here...

> > 1.  NEW MUTANTS vol 2 #3: Magma is still comatose following the injuries she sustained in UNCANNY X-MEN #423.  This may well rule her out as being one of the generic blondes at the wedding of Alex and Lorna, depending on how long she stays that way.

> I've placed UX 425 after NM2 3, albeit only days after, so there's a chance that Magma is present at the wedding.  We'll see how her story plays out...

Um, care to explain that a little? If we take what Prof. X said in NM2 3 literally, (and I don't see why it shouldn't be taken that way), then after Magma was healed in UX 423, that night, when she went to bed, she fell into a coma.  So two issues later, when they were having the wedding of Alex and Lorna, Magma couldn't have been in attendence since she was in a hospital bed.

But then again, if Magma was 'healed' fully from Angel's blood, then why when we first see her in the hospital bed in NM2 3, did she still have bandages on her hands from being crucified?

			*	*	*

Re: This week's X-books
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 21, 2003 at 20:54:29:
In Reply to: Re: This week's X-books
posted by Kevin  on July 21, 2003 at 17:21:07:

> > > A couple of points to flag up here...

> > > 1.  NEW MUTANTS vol 2 #3: Magma is still comatose following the injuries she sustained in UNCANNY X-MEN #423.  This may well rule her out as being one of the generic blondes at the wedding of Alex and Lorna, depending on how long she stays that way.

> > I've placed UX 425 after NM2 3, albeit only days after, so there's a chance that Magma is present at the wedding.  We'll see how her story plays out...

> Um, care to explain that a little? If we take what Prof. X said in NM2 3 literally, (and I don't see why it shouldn't be taken that way), then after Magma was healed in UX 423, that night, when she went to bed, she fell into a coma.  So two issues later, when they were having the wedding of Alex and Lorna, Magma couldn't have been in attendence since she was in a hospital bed.

> But then again, if Magma was 'healed' fully from Angel's blood, then why when we first see her in the hospital bed in NM2 3, did she still have bandages on her hands from being crucified?

I have NM2 1-3 occurring between UX 424 and 425, at least for now.  As for why Warren's blood didn't work, or worked only temporarily, perhaps that's a story for NM2 4?  At least I HOPE they explain this one...

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: This week's X-books
Posted by Kevin  on July 22, 2003 at 11:34:36:
In Reply to: Re: This week's X-books
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 21, 2003 at 20:54:29:

> > Um, care to explain that a little? If we take what Prof. X said in NM2 3 literally, (and I don't see why it shouldn't be taken that way), then after Magma was healed in UX 423, that night, when she went to bed, she fell into a coma.  So two issues later, when they were having the wedding of Alex and Lorna, Magma couldn't have been in attendence since she was in a hospital bed.

> > But then again, if Magma was 'healed' fully from Angel's blood, then why when we first see her in the hospital bed in NM2 3, did she still have bandages on her hands from being crucified?

> I have NM2 1-3 occurring between UX 424 and 425, at least for now.  As for why Warren's blood didn't work, or worked only temporarily, perhaps that's a story for NM2 4?  At least I HOPE they explain this one...

Ah, I see.  So you're going on the hope that she comes out of this coma in the next couple of issue, thus, maybe giving just enough time for her to show up at the wedding.  

Well, let's see how it turns out.  But didn't it take like 12 issues for Havok to awake from his coma? ;-)

			*	*	*

NM2 #3 / UX #425-426
Posted by Jeph! on July 21, 2003 at 20:04:36:
In Reply to: This week's X-books
posted by Paul O'Brien on July 20, 2003 at 09:10:35:

> 1.  NEW MUTANTS vol 2 #3: Magma is still comatose following the injuries she sustained in UNCANNY X-MEN #423.  This may well rule her out as being one of the generic blondes at the wedding of Alex and Lorna, depending on how long she stays that way.

I thought we had decided that she likely WASN'T one of the generic blondes anyway.  That the one we originally THOUGHT was her was, in all likelihood, Val Cooper instead.

Have Magma and Lorna ever MET?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: NM2 #3 / UX #425-426
Posted by Paul O'Brien on July 22, 2003 at 07:23:14:
In Reply to: NM2 #3 / UX #425-426
posted by Jeph! on July 21, 2003 at 20:04:36:

> Have Magma and Lorna ever MET?

Off the top of my head, I don't think so.

			*	*	*

Re: This week's X-books
Posted by Andy Holcombe on August 01, 2003 at 18:43:34:
In Reply to: This week's X-books
posted by Paul O'Brien on July 20, 2003 at 09:10:35:

> 3.  UNCANNY X-MEN #428 seems to think that Nightcrawler is 20.  This seems awfully unlikely.

In a recent interview with Comix-Fan ( http://www.x-mencomics.com/xfan/ ), writer Chuck Austen, this date was added after he finished scripting the book, so we can't blame this one on him.  He feels Kurt is 26 or 27.

			*	*	*

ROCK PYTHON...MARIANNE RODGERS...ROGUE
Posted by Arthur Stein on July 20, 2003 at 12:33:52:

new entries marked **

ROCK PYTHON
**CA 341    last page panel 6 on monitor
CA 342
**CA 343   pg 6/3
CA 355

RODGERS, MARIANNE
IM 75
**IM 103   pg 31/8-9
**IM 104   pg 31/4  31/8
IM 105

ROGUE
**XC 44/2
M/FAN 60/2
IM 105

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#104

			*	*	*

Error in Thing/Lockjaw Chronology
Posted by Trent Rosby on July 23, 2003 at 08:23:02:

This is probably just a typo in the Chronology, but during FF 160, the Thing and Lockjaw appear in a flashback in GSSVTU 2, not SVTU 2.

			*	*	*

FF 249-250 Vs. UX 167
Posted by David Hall on July 24, 2003 at 08:51:49:

I thought I would start a new topic for this, because the original topic was on X-Men/Alpha Flight II.

I would love to have some FF experts weigh in on this sequence of events.

I know the Official X-Men Index says differently, but I'd like to offer the "evidence of my eyes" on this one. (I have recently read FF 248-265) 

In FF 249-250 Gladiator fights skrulls in space, then follows them to Earth, mistakes the FF for the skrulls, proceeds to fight them, and gets his butt kicked by Mr. Fantastic who figures out how Gladiator's powers work. 

In UX 167, he explains the events of FF 249-250 to Lilandra, saying that when he came to Earth, he fought the FF. He also tells Lil about FF 242-243, when Mr. Fantastic saved Galactus' life. (This presumably being common knowledge among the expatriot Shi'ar types at this point.) This sets Lilandra into a rage, and she uses the Starjammer's holoprojector to appear in Reed and Sue's bedroom, to warn them that if Galactus eats any more planets, Reed will be held responsible. 

In FF 261-262 Lilandra puts Reed on trial. According to Sue Richards (not just the dialog box) the (UX 167) warning occured "right before the FF entered the negative zone" (FF 251-256.) 

It seems pretty obvious to me, that unless we see Gladiator on panel time traveling, that the order of these scenes must be FF 249-250, UX 167, FF 261-262. 

I know that I'm not offering (at this time) a comprehensive chronology listing update/analysis, BUT I am hoping to make the point that we need a new one, as the MCP listings (and Official X-Men index listing) cannot be accurate. (I see this post as a good beginning for a discussion.)

As a further note, the Official X-Men Index does NOT have listings for Gladiator and Lilandra appearing in FF 261-262. 

I also offer the standard disclaimer that I am not infallable, and that I do not have all of the books that FF crossover into in this period (Thing, MTIO, etc.) yet.

David

			*	*	*

RONAN...BERNIE ROSENTHAL..."THUNDERBOLT" ROSS
Posted by Arthur Stein on July 24, 2003 at 19:11:43:

new entries marked **

RONAN THE ACCUSER [KREE]
FF 65
**CM 5
**CM 10  (on video communicator Pgs 3/4, 4/1 and 19/2) 
CM 16
..  ..  ..  ..  ..
CM 49
**CM 50   Pgs 10-11
CM 55

ROSENTHAL, BERNIE   
**CA 247   unnamed; Pg 7/7  carrying groceries into Mike Farrels apartment (likely for the spaghetti dinner mentioned in CA 248) as Mike brings Josh downstairs to be introduced to her. Then they wait for Steve to return for their celebratory dinner (CA 248).
CA 248
..  ..  ..  ..  ..
CA 317
**CA 357
CA 380

ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. "THUNDERBOLT"
H@ 7
**H2 228
**H2 229
**H2 230
H2 234
..  ..  ..  ..  ..
H2 400-FB
**H2 397  as Redeeemer, Pg 30
H2 398

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#105

			*	*	*

Marvel's changing history
Posted by Dan Spears on July 25, 2003 at 04:26:30:

  Hi,

  I notice that a lot of Marvel comics that have been produced in recent years change or ignore much of what has come before.  Sometimes on this site (which I respect highly), these stories are decided to be "non canon", as in The Adventures of Captain America, while other times, the specific changes are just ignored.  The latest occuring of this in a regular, ongoing canon series is in the latest issues of Alias.  When Jessica wakes up from her coma, the FF/Galactus battle is happening across the street.  Soon afterwards, she's adopted and restarts high school, where her classmates are Peter Parker and Flash Thompson.  But if I'm not mistaken, it's been accepted in the past that Peter Parker and Johnny Storm graduated High School at the same time, and Johnny Storm (and thus, Peter Parker) started college almost immediately after the Galactus battle.  So she should be coming out of her coma after Peter has graduated and entering College, not while he is still a High School student.  This gives us two choices : declare the story non-canon, which I hate doing, or just ignore the different depictions of Marvel history.

  Or...

  This is my theory.  The Marvel Universe of today is NOT the same one depicted in the '60's and '70's (and maybe most of the '80's).  There have been a few times where the Marvel Earth (or even the Universe) was destroyed, and then recreated, the earliest that I can recall being in a early issue of Doctor Strange written by Steve Englehart.  The way I see it, at least once when this happened, it was recreated with a slightly different history than the one it replaced.  Thus, many of these recent re-tellings of the past which have been declared non-canon actually ARE canon, they just don't belong on the same time line.

  I know it would be extremely hard to start a SECOND timeline at this point, but the longer it's put off, the harder it will get, and at some point I really think that this course of action is going to become inevitable.  I'd like to know everyone's thoughts on this.

  Thanks,

  Dan

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel's changing history
Posted by Kevin  on July 26, 2003 at 10:50:08:
In Reply to: Marvel's changing history
posted by Dan Spears on July 25, 2003 at 04:26:30:

>   I notice that a lot of Marvel comics that have been produced in recent years change or ignore much of what has come before.  Sometimes on this site (which I respect highly), these stories are decided to be "non canon", as in The Adventures of Captain America, while other times, the specific changes are just ignored.  The latest occuring of this in a regular, ongoing canon series is in the latest issues of Alias.  When Jessica wakes up from her coma, the FF/Galactus battle is happening across the street.  Soon afterwards, she's adopted and restarts high school, where her classmates are Peter Parker and Flash Thompson.  But if I'm not mistaken, it's been accepted in the past that Peter Parker and Johnny Storm graduated High School at the same time, and Johnny Storm (and thus, Peter Parker) started college almost immediately after the Galactus battle.  So she should be coming out of her coma after Peter has graduated and entering College, not while he is still a High School student.  This gives us two choices : declare the story non-canon, which I hate doing, or just ignore the different depictions of Marvel history.

If what you say is true, (and I'm not as familiar with early Marvel History as others, and Alias likes to tweak Marvel history a bit) we would more then likely just ignore the reference if it was false.  It would  take a lot more than that to rule a comic isn't canon.  Although, as I mentioned in another post, it's the MAX line of comics,(which I think ALias belongs to) which most often we find are not canon.

>   Or...

>   This is my theory.  The Marvel Universe of today is NOT the same one depicted in the '60's and '70's (and maybe most of the '80's).  There have been a few times where the Marvel Earth (or even the Universe) was destroyed, and then recreated, the earliest that I can recall being in a early issue of Doctor Strange written by Steve Englehart.  The way I see it, at least once when this happened, it was recreated with a slightly different history than the one it replaced.  Thus, many of these recent re-tellings of the past which have been declared non-canon actually ARE canon, they just don't belong on the same time line.

>   I know it would be extremely hard to start a SECOND timeline at this point, but the longer it's put off, the harder it will get, and at some point I really think that this course of action is going to become inevitable.  I'd like to know everyone's thoughts on this.

Like you said: The Marvel universe has been destroyed many times.  The most recent being in the pages of Captian Marvel, Issue 6.  Of course it was reformed at the end of the issue, but this wouldn't count as the start of a whole new timeline, or rather, a whole new MCP line...

The retelling of Marvel history is what it is.  In cases like what you pointed out in Alias above, it could most likely be a slight mistake, (on the writer or editor's part).  But on the otherhand, we have writers like Chris Clairmont, who during his run on the Fantastic Four, declared that the FF went into space to break the speed of light, not to beat the Commies to the moon. In such cases of revision, what we're supposed to do is still look at the events of Fantastic Four, #1, as canon, but we're supposed to look over comments of "beating the Commies to the Moon", and replace them in our minds with "Must Break the Speed of Light!"

It doesn't warrant a start of a whole new timeline, (like DC did with Crisis on Infinite Earths) it just warrants a little creative "looking over these real world references" on our part.

			*	*	*

Quick note: [with future publishing Spoilers]
Posted by Jeph! on July 26, 2003 at 11:17:58:
In Reply to: Re: Marvel's changing history
posted by Kevin  on July 26, 2003 at 10:50:08:

> Although, as I mentioned in another post, it's the MAX line of comics,(which I think ALias belongs to) which most often we find are not canon.

Quick note here -- ALIAS IS CANON!

BM Bendis writes it as if it is canon.  The main character has appeared in "mainstream" Marvel books (Daredevil).  Plotlines have been shared between Alias and mainstream books (The Owl's drug ring).  And, the kicker...

"Alias" is ending with #28 and continuing into a new, NON-MAX book called "The Pulse".  And now that the adventures of Jessica Jones are going to be published under the mainstream Marvel banner, maybe people will FINALLY accept that the book is and always has been canon.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Quick note: [with future publishing Spoilers]
Posted by Kevin  on July 28, 2003 at 11:03:49:
In Reply to: Quick note: [with future publishing Spoilers]
posted by Jeph! on July 26, 2003 at 11:17:58:

I figured it was indeed canon going by the numerous appearances Jessica has made in Daredevil.  My only point was that if any line of books has "non canon" series in it, it's the MAX line, (like that Luke Cage miniseries, and the War Machine miniseries...am I right that both of those are not canon?)

			*	*	*

Re: Quick note: [with future publishing Spoilers]
Posted by garbonzo on July 28, 2003 at 11:30:07:
In Reply to: Re: Quick note: [with future publishing Spoilers]
posted by Kevin  on July 28, 2003 at 11:03:49:

> My only point was that if any line of books has "non canon" series in it, it's the MAX line, (like that Luke Cage miniseries, and the War Machine miniseries...am I right that both of those are not canon?)

I think it is difficult to say about the Cage series.  while I initially thought it was not cannon, after it was published, Cage's next appearances in DD had him looking and talking similarly to the Cage we saw in the mini-series. (which was different than how we saw him in Alias #1 or in any of his other previous appearances).  It seems like Marvel is moving him in that direction due to the popularity of the series.  

			*	*	*

Re: Quick note: [with future publishing Spoilers]
Posted by Dan Spears on July 28, 2003 at 22:40:21:
In Reply to: Re: Quick note: [with future publishing Spoilers]
posted by garbonzo on July 28, 2003 at 11:30:07:

> My only point was that if any line of books has "non canon" series in it, it's the MAX line, (like that Luke Cage miniseries, and the War Machine miniseries...am I right that both of those are not canon?)

> I think it is difficult to say about the Cage series.  while I initially thought it was not cannon, after it was published, Cage's next appearances in DD had him looking and talking similarly to the Cage we saw in the mini-series. (which was different than how we saw him in Alias #1 or in any of his other previous appearances).  It seems like Marvel is moving him in that direction due to the popularity of the series.  

Why exactly AREN'T some of the Marvel character Max series considered as cannon?  Specifically, War Machine, Fury, and Cage (or, if any others are in this group, let me know).  Is it because something in the storyline specifically changed or disputed something in the Marvel past, or is it just because the characters were taken in a radically different direction from what they were depicted in the past (as, per your comments above, I'm assuming happened with the Cage mini)?  If it's just because they were taken in a different direction, I don't think that's a good reason to declare a story as non cannon.

			*	*	*

Re: Quick note: [with future publishing Spoilers]
Posted by Andy Holcombe on July 29, 2003 at 01:09:46:
In Reply to: Re: Quick note: [with future publishing Spoilers]
posted by Dan Spears on July 28, 2003 at 22:40:21:

> Why exactly AREN'T some of the Marvel character Max series considered as cannon?  Specifically, War Machine, Fury, and Cage (or, if any others are in this group, let me know).

Have you read the stories in question?

U.S. War Machine is blatanly non-canon.  Any possible doubts to it's canonicity (and I don't see how there could have been) were erased in the recent 2.0 series where Bucky has taken over as Captain America.  

Fury (vol. 3) is either set "in the future" or in the present with a Nick Fury that became director of S.H.I.E.L.D. in the '60's.  The characterization of Nick Fury was vastly inconsistent with what has come before and after.  It may be set in a super-hero free universe.

Cage (vol. 2) seemed to take an "Ultimate" approach to the character.  If nothing else, look at the characters Tombstone and Hammerhead.  They are obviously not the characters in the regular Marvel Universe.  I seriously doubt that the "real" Hammerhead and Tombstone would take kindly to these upstarts trading on their names.  I also doubt that any criminals (and both Hammerhead and Tombstone felt like established crimelords) would be so foolish to use the name of another as their regular operating names.  I'm not talking about a frame job or something covert.  The reason the Luke Cage in Daredevil (vol. 2) looks like the Luke Cage in Cage (vol. 2), he decided to change clothes.

Blade (vol. 2) features a very movie-like Blade.  A Blade that has always had vampiric powers and may have lived quite a bit longer than one would guess based on his physical appearance.  Blade, in this series, is not able to sense the supernatural, which I believe the "regular" Blade has been able to do.

I'll have to yield to others on the canonicity or not of Rawhide Kid: Slap Leather and The Eternal.  Personally, I'm going with non-canon for both.  But without having read the books, I can't justify my position.

			*	*	*

Re: Quick note: [with future publishing Spoilers]
Posted by Peter Fabricius on July 29, 2003 at 01:24:25:
In Reply to: Re: Quick note: [with future publishing Spoilers]
posted by Andy Holcombe on July 29, 2003 at 01:09:46:

> Blade (vol. 2) features a very movie-like Blade.  A Blade that has always had vampiric powers and may have lived quite a bit longer than one would guess based on his physical appearance.  Blade, in this series, is not able to sense the supernatural, which I believe the "regular" Blade has been able to do.

> I'll have to yield to others on the canonicity or not of Rawhide Kid: Slap Leather and The Eternal.  Personally, I'm going with non-canon for both.  But without having read the books, I can't justify my position.

No real disagreement as to what you said.

I have read both Rawhide Kid: Slap Leather and The Eternal, so my feeling is that the first is canon, and the second is not.

There is as far as I can tell nothing in RK:SL that seems out of place with the established character's history, except possibly his sexuality. And this is never stated explicitly in hte book, merely something you read between the lines.

The Eternal however is clearly not taking place in the Marvel Universe. The 'Eternals' in the book are extraterrestrials, and Earth is inhabited by Deviants when they arrive.

Peter

			*	*	*

Re: Quick note: [with future publishing Spoilers]
Posted by Paul O'Brien on July 31, 2003 at 18:05:38:
In Reply to: Re: Quick note: [with future publishing Spoilers]
posted by Peter Fabricius on July 29, 2003 at 01:24:25:

> There is as far as I can tell nothing in RK:SL that seems out of place with the established character's history, except possibly his sexuality. And this is never stated explicitly in hte book, merely something you read between the lines.

From what I've seen of RK:SL, I'm not aware of anything to prevent it being canon either.  And is there anything in Rawhide Kid's canonical adventures which would be inconsistent with his being gay, even if that were explicitly stated?

Another couple of books which have to be taken into account at the moment are BORN and THOR: VIKINGS.  BORN, written by the Punisher's regular artist and relating to a period of his life already established in canon, seems to be canon - again, there's no pressing reason why it shouldn't be.  It seems to be under the Max imprint solely on the basis of graphic violence.

THOR: VIKINGS #1 came out this week, and only has Thor show up briefly at the end.  He's wearing his traditional Marvel costume (not his "ruler of Asgard" costume) and acting in character.  The story is said to take place in 2003.  While this may create placement difficulties, nothing seems to be a barrier to canonicity.  Again, it seems to be in the Max imprint solely on the basis of graphic violence.

			*	*	*

Re: Quick note: [with future publishing Spoilers]
Posted by Paul O'Brien on July 31, 2003 at 18:06:44:
In Reply to: Re: Quick note: [with future publishing Spoilers]
posted by Paul O'Brien on July 31, 2003 at 18:05:38:

>BORN, written by the Punisher's regular artist...

Writer, obviously.

			*	*	*

More follow ups about the MAX line..
Posted by Kevin  on July 31, 2003 at 18:53:16:
In Reply to: Re: Quick note: [with future publishing Spoilers]
posted by Paul O'Brien on July 31, 2003 at 18:05:38:

> Another couple of books which have to be taken into account at the moment are BORN and THOR: VIKINGS.  BORN, written by the Punisher's regular artist and relating to a period of his life already established in canon, seems to be canon - again, there's no pressing reason why it shouldn't be.  It seems to be under the Max imprint solely on the basis of graphic violence.

> THOR: VIKINGS #1 came out this week, and only has Thor show up briefly at the end.  He's wearing his traditional Marvel costume (not his "ruler of Asgard" costume) and acting in character.  The story is said to take place in 2003.  While this may create placement difficulties, nothing seems to be a barrier to canonicity.  Again, it seems to be in the Max imprint solely on the basis of graphic violence.

I tend to agree, (so far.  We'd best wait till both miniseries are over before judging completely).  References like "2003" in "Thor: Vikings" would almost always be considered topical.  It's likely that by the end of this miniseries, we can just place this story as happening shortly before Odin's death, (or thereabouts)...

As for "BORN", I want to see where Garth Ennis is going with this...

More thoughts on the MAX line of books:

I don't think it's neccesarily "graphic violence, sexuality, or language" that gets a book lumped in the max line, I think it has possibly more to do with a creator who wants to tell a superhero story without the confines of current continuity.  Thus, if Garth Ennis wants to tell a tale about Thor and undead Vikings, then he gets to do it without being weighted down with the "Asgard on Earth" stuff Dan Jurgens is writing.  Now that doesn't guarentee the miniseries is noncanon.  It just means it's not happening at the same time as the "regular" Marvel books coming out right now.

"Born" is being hailed as THE Punisher's origin, (kinda like the Wolverine miniseries Origin, go figure) so they obviously intend it to be canon.  We'll just have to cross our fingers and hope by the end of the miniseries, that nothing contradicts prior Punisher history.

And what about the upcoming "Supreme Power" book by J. Michael Stracynski, (first issue comes out this month)?  It's in the MAX line, but isn't it in the same universe as the Squadron Supreme? (Thus, even though it's a different universe, it's still canon?)  That's what I heard at least...

In other words, all MAX books should probably be considered individually on a case by case basis as to wether they are canon or not...

			*	*	*

And a little bit about EPIC, too!
Posted by Jeph! on August 01, 2003 at 13:29:43:
In Reply to: More follow ups about the MAX line..
posted by Kevin  on July 31, 2003 at 18:53:16:

> I don't think it's neccesarily "graphic violence, sexuality, or language" that gets a book lumped in the max line, I think it has possibly more to do with a creator who wants to tell a superhero story without the confines of current continuity.  Thus, if Garth Ennis wants to tell a tale about Thor and undead Vikings, then he gets to do it without being weighted down with the "Asgard on Earth" stuff Dan Jurgens is writing.

I'd have to disagree.  Inter-book "continuity" hasn't been strictly enforced at Marvel for years now.  If Garth Ennis wanted to tell a Marvel-PG story about Thor without the Asgard-on-Earth stuff, his editors would probably have let him go right ahead.

The MAX line was created for ONE reason -- to publish books with borderline content.  If some of those books and stories HAPPEN to be non-canon, that's the way it goes -- but Marvel's regular line has been publihsing happily non-canon miniseries for some time now (Eden's Trail, Quest, as far back as Rogue v2).

> In other words, all MAX books should probably be considered individually on a case by case basis as to wether they are canon or not...

Which is what we've been saying all along.

Which, honestly, applies to EVERY book from EVERY line Marvel's putting out right now.

And speaking of Marvel's various publishing imprints, specifically EPIC, here's a little note on "Trouble":

There's been a buzz about the plot of the series: that it involves, in one way or another, the conception of Peter Parker.

Well, if that's the way the series decides to go, then I have to say it's non-canon: we've already SEEN the situation in which Richard and Mary discovered that Mary was pregnant, and it WAS NOT "four horny teens at summer camp".  It was in Untold Tales of Spider-Man #minus-one, and Richard and Mary were already working for SHIELD when a doctor's exam told Mary she was pregnant.

Now, if Trouble ends up telling us that Aunt May had an illegitimate child, or that one of them got pregnant and had an abortion, or ANY other story that DOESN'T center on Peter's conception -- then MAYBE it can be considered canon, as the story of how all four met.

But if they go the way they've been hinting they'll go, then no -- "Trouble" is decidedly not canon.

-Jeph!

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Re: And a little bit about EPIC, too!
Posted by Kevin  on August 01, 2003 at 15:41:28:
In Reply to: And a little bit about EPIC, too!
posted by Jeph! on August 01, 2003 at 13:29:43:

> I'd have to disagree.  Inter-book "continuity" hasn't been strictly enforced at Marvel for years now.  If Garth Ennis wanted to tell a Marvel-PG story about Thor without the Asgard-on-Earth stuff, his editors would probably have let him go right ahead.

> The MAX line was created for ONE reason -- to publish books with borderline content.  If some of those books and stories HAPPEN to be non-canon, that's the way it goes -- but Marvel's regular line has been publihsing happily non-canon miniseries for some time now (Eden's Trail, Quest, as far back as Rogue v2).

I see your point, but if it's really all about the "violence" factor, then why have we not seen more series that happen alongside other "current continuity" non-MAX series, (Alias being an exception)?  They did a violent "MAX" series featuring Nick Fury.  Why can't they create a Nick Fuy miniseries which matches current continuity?  ("Because the writer didn't want to," is the obvious answer).  I think a great deal of has to do with the writers wanting to escape current continuity shackles.  

Sometimes that escape means changing the whole universe, (like was done in the Nick Fury MAX series) or it could just mean revising some of Marvel's history by placing a character in it's past, (like Jessica Jones).

Perhaps your right, and the majority reason a series gets placed in the MAX line is the "Rated R" aspects.  But it also seems to me that most of the products in the MAX line are done because they wanted to play with or alter continuity.  

They are either being sneaky like Alias, or whole reality altering like the Nick Fury miniseries.  

> > In other words, all MAX books should probably be considered individually on a case by case basis as to wether they are canon or not...

> Which is what we've been saying all along.

True, guess I'm just rehashing old subjects simply because of all the new MAX titles coming out right now.

> And speaking of Marvel's various publishing imprints, specifically EPIC, here's a little note on "Trouble":

> There's been a buzz about the plot of the series: that it involves, in one way or another, the conception of Peter Parker.

> Well, if that's the way the series decides to go, then I have to say it's non-canon: we've already SEEN the situation in which Richard and Mary discovered that Mary was pregnant, and it WAS NOT "four horny teens at summer camp".  It was in Untold Tales of Spider-Man #minus-one, and Richard and Mary were already working for SHIELD when a doctor's exam told Mary she was pregnant.

> Now, if Trouble ends up telling us that Aunt May had an illegitimate child, or that one of them got pregnant and had an abortion, or ANY other story that DOESN'T center on Peter's conception -- then MAYBE it can be considered canon, as the story of how all four met.

> But if they go the way they've been hinting they'll go, then no -- "Trouble" is decidedly not canon.

Perhaps they want to pull a "Daredevil: Yellow" and declare the previous story about "Spidey's conception" as being non-canon?<p>

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Re: And a little bit about EPIC, too!
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 02, 2003 at 07:11:29:
In Reply to: And a little bit about EPIC, too!
posted by Jeph! on August 01, 2003 at 13:29:43:

Surely there's a more fundamental objection to TROUBLE's canonicity.  If TROUBLE features the conception of Peter Parker, then that would mean May was less then 20 years old when he was born.  Aunt May is quite blatantly not in her forties.

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Re: And a little bit about EPIC, too!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 02, 2003 at 19:37:35:
In Reply to: Re: And a little bit about EPIC, too!
posted by Paul O'Brien on August 02, 2003 at 07:11:29:

Or even her fifties, if you consider Peter to be in his 30s as I do  ;)

--Paul

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Re: Quick note: [with future publishing Spoilers]
Posted by Dan Spears on July 29, 2003 at 23:56:45:
In Reply to: Re: Quick note: [with future publishing Spoilers]
posted by Andy Holcombe on July 29, 2003 at 01:09:46:

> > Why exactly AREN'T some of the Marvel character Max series considered as cannon?  Specifically, War Machine, Fury, and Cage (or, if any others are in this group, let me know).

> Have you read the stories in question?

> U.S. War Machine is blatanly non-canon.  Any possible doubts to it's canonicity (and I don't see how there could have been) were erased in the recent 2.0 series where Bucky has taken over as Captain America.  

> Fury (vol. 3) is either set "in the future" or in the present with a Nick Fury that became director of S.H.I.E.L.D. in the '60's.  The characterization of Nick Fury was vastly inconsistent with what has come before and after.  It may be set in a super-hero free universe.

> Cage (vol. 2) seemed to take an "Ultimate" approach to the character.  If nothing else, look at the characters Tombstone and Hammerhead.  They are obviously not the characters in the regular Marvel Universe.  I seriously doubt that the "real" Hammerhead and Tombstone would take kindly to these upstarts trading on their names.  I also doubt that any criminals (and both Hammerhead and Tombstone felt like established crimelords) would be so foolish to use the name of another as their regular operating names.  I'm not talking about a frame job or something covert.  The reason the Luke Cage in Daredevil (vol. 2) looks like the Luke Cage in Cage (vol. 2), he decided to change clothes.

> Blade (vol. 2) features a very movie-like Blade.  A Blade that has always had vampiric powers and may have lived quite a bit longer than one would guess based on his physical appearance.  Blade, in this series, is not able to sense the supernatural, which I believe the "regular" Blade has been able to do.

> I'll have to yield to others on the canonicity or not of Rawhide Kid: Slap Leather and The Eternal.  Personally, I'm going with non-canon for both.  But without having read the books, I can't justify my position.

No, obviously I haven't read them (would love to sometime, but money is just too tight and books too expensive to read everything I'd like to).  Thanks for your input.

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Re: Marvel's changing history
Posted by Peter Fabricius on July 26, 2003 at 17:06:32:
In Reply to: Re: Marvel's changing history
posted by Kevin  on July 26, 2003 at 10:50:08:

>   But on the otherhand, we have writers like Chris Clairmont, who during his run on the Fantastic Four, declared that the FF went into space to break the speed of light, not to beat the Commies to the moon. In such cases of revision, what we're supposed to do is still look at the events of Fantastic Four, #1, as canon, but we're supposed to look over comments of "beating the Commies to the Moon", and replace them in our minds with "Must Break the Speed of Light!"

Actually John Byrne did that when he took over FF.

Look in FF#236, the 20th anniversary issue. Reed says 'Engage the experimental STAR DRIVE'

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Re: Marvel's changing history
Posted by David Hall on July 26, 2003 at 20:54:48:
In Reply to: Re: Marvel's changing history
posted by Peter Fabricius on July 26, 2003 at 17:06:32:

> Actually John Byrne did that when he took over FF.

> Look in FF#236, the 20th anniversary issue. Reed says 'Engage the experimental STAR DRIVE'

Except that was in a dream that Johnny Storm was having, not in a flashback.  The point of the dreams the FF were having in that issue was that they were all a little off from Marvel Reality.

David Hall

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Re: Marvel's changing history
Posted by Peter Fabricius on July 27, 2003 at 03:15:56:
In Reply to: Re: Marvel's changing history
posted by David Hall on July 26, 2003 at 20:54:48:

Except that the information from these dreams are treated as canon in the Official Handbook.

And the Stardrive is repeated in FF#271 by Reed after the retelling of the meeting with Gormuu.

Peter

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Fantomex!  What other issues was he in?
Posted by Adric on July 26, 2003 at 02:18:32:

I'm reading the current X-Men and was wondering what other issues has Fantomex been in (other then the run in X-Men, with that whole thing on the train, issues 128-130 i think)

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Re: Fantomex!  What other issues was he in?
Posted by Jeph! on July 26, 2003 at 11:12:19:
In Reply to: Fantomex!  What other issues was he in?
posted by Adric on July 26, 2003 at 02:18:32:

He's been in #128-130, 133, and #142-145.

So I guess "133" was the answer you were looking for.

-Jeph!

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Question: Does anyone know where I can go to
Posted by Indigo Bamf on July 26, 2003 at 14:07:29:

read what happened in each of the Excalibur issues that Feron was in? Or give me some information? I know what issues he's in, but where I'm from I can only get certain comics, which is why I'm 15 issues short of the Excalibur series.

Thanks,
   Indigo Bamf

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Some Feron issues covered at Merlin Appendix entry
Posted by John McDonagh on July 28, 2003 at 17:04:07:
In Reply to: Question: Does anyone know where I can go to 
posted by Indigo Bamf on July 26, 2003 at 14:07:29:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/merlinyn.htm

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Goblin Queen
Posted by Harrison on July 27, 2003 at 18:15:30:

I never read X-Man or Cable.  Would someone please explain to me how Madelyne Pryor turned up alive in those books?  Is she still alive?  Is she still evil?  What's the deal?

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Re: Goblin Queen
Posted by Sean Curtin on July 29, 2003 at 16:59:11:
In Reply to: Goblin Queen 
posted by Harrison on July 27, 2003 at 18:15:30:

The original Maddy is still dead.  Nate Grey created a psychic construct based on Maddy's ambient psychic energy way back in X-Man #5.  She was amnesiac for a while, but eventually regained her memories from her previous life, and hooked up with the Hellfire Club.  Near the end of the X-Man series, she was killed and briefly impersonated by an alternate universe counterpart of Jean Grey, who inexplicably claimed to have been the resurrected Madelyne all along.

-- 
Sean Curtin

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ARNIE ROTH..."RIGGER" RUIZ...SANDMAN
Posted by Arthur Stein on July 28, 2003 at 15:54:58:

new entries marked **

ROTH, ARNIE
**CA 268   unnamed;  pgs 3/5, 4/2 and 5/11
CA 270

RUIZ, RIGGER
T 433
**C&D3 19 (pg 29)
M/CP 112/2

SANDMAN/WILLIAM BAKER/"SYLVESTER MANN"/"FLINT MARKO"
ASM 407
**SSWP 32
**SSWP 33
**SSWP 34
M/TU2 3

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#106

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A Qestion to Jeph or Paul Bourcier, or anyone else actually...
Posted by French Thom on July 28, 2003 at 19:33:37:

Could you please tell me if you ever posted a thread about the chronology of the x-titles from th end o "operation zero tolerance" to "maximum security"? that would help a lot... i can't be asked to find the proper way to read so many comics...

Thank you!

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Re: A Qestion to Jeph or Paul Bourcier, or anyone else actually...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 29, 2003 at 06:47:44:
In Reply to: A Qestion to Jeph or Paul Bourcier, or anyone else actually...
posted by French Thom on July 28, 2003 at 19:33:37:

I haven't done a full analysis of that time period, but I'm working on it, slowly but surely.  I'm extending the calendar back another year or so to cover the period from Heroes Return to Maximum Security.  I'm afraid the draft is still a few months away, though.

One thing I have done in preparation for the calendar, however, is compile the chronologies of the major X-characters (from A3 10 to just before MAXSEC)and integrated them into a table showing the progression of titles.  And although there are some flaws, I can e-mail that to you if you're interested.

--Paul

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Re: A Qestion to Jeph or Paul Bourcier, or anyone else actually...
Posted by French Thom on July 29, 2003 at 10:57:44:
In Reply to: Re: A Qestion to Jeph or Paul Bourcier, or anyone else actually...
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 29, 2003 at 06:47:44:

That would be very nice of you!

Thanks in advance!

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Re: A Qestion to Jeph or Paul Bourcier, or anyone else actually...
Posted by David Hall on July 29, 2003 at 20:00:35:
In Reply to: Re: A Qestion to Jeph or Paul Bourcier, or anyone else actually...
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 29, 2003 at 06:47:44:

Paul,

would you email that to me too?

Thanks!
David
Dhall@mn.rr.com

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Re: A Qestion to Jeph or Paul Bourcier, or anyone else actually...
Posted by Jeph! on July 29, 2003 at 14:53:36:
In Reply to: A Qestion to Jeph or Paul Bourcier, or anyone else actually...
posted by French Thom on July 28, 2003 at 19:33:37:

> Could you please tell me if you ever posted a thread about the chronology of the x-titles from th end o "operation zero tolerance" to "maximum security"?

Well, I'm just about done with a purely X-books calendar covering X-Men #70-99 (the END of O:ZT to the beginning of the six-month gap).

I can post that here, if you like.  I just need to make it a bit more user-friendly...

(Or I can e-mail you the current version, if you just can't wait...)  ;-)

-Jeph!

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Re: A Qestion to Jeph or Paul Bourcier, or anyone else actually...
Posted by French Thom on July 29, 2003 at 16:51:52:
In Reply to: Re: A Qestion to Jeph or Paul Bourcier, or anyone else actually...
posted by Jeph! on July 29, 2003 at 14:53:36:

Jeph, thanks a lot! I just can't wait, so I would greatly appreciate if you could e-mail me the current version!

Thank you!

French Thom

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Absorbing Man in Thor & Hulk
Posted by Alan Stewart on July 29, 2003 at 16:08:35:

Anybody else figured out how to square the free, Thor-supporting Crusher Creel in recent issues of Thor with the imprisoned homicidal maniac currently on view in Hulk?

Alan Stewart

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Re: Absorbing Man in Thor & Hulk
Posted by Sean Curtin on July 29, 2003 at 17:01:35:
In Reply to: Absorbing Man in Thor & Hulk
posted by Alan Stewart on July 29, 2003 at 16:08:35:

The current Thor storyline takes place much, much later in continuity than the Hulk one?

Either that or, I dunno, Space Phantoms or Super-Skrulls or something.

-- 
Sean Curtin

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Re: Absorbing Man in Thor & Hulk
Posted by Kevin  on July 29, 2003 at 17:21:34:
In Reply to: Re: Absorbing Man in Thor & Hulk
posted by Sean Curtin on July 29, 2003 at 17:01:35:

> The current Thor storyline takes place much, much later in continuity than the Hulk one?

> Either that or, I dunno, Space Phantoms or Super-Skrulls or something.

Given that this is the most homicidal that I've EVER seen Crusher Creel depicted, I don't think Thor would have him signed up on his team of dogooders on Earth, even if he did repent, (like he did in Thor #55).  

No, I believe it's better if Creel's appearances in Thor happen BEFORE his confinement and insanity in recent issues of Hulk, (and this is how I believe it is on Paul's calender, as well).  As for how he got from nice guy in Thor to Hannibal Lector in Hulk, it's unclear of the sequence of events in the comics, but there was obviously some sort of rift between Thor and Creel, which made Creel go off the deep end mentally, (perhaps his wife Titania passed away).  I doubt Dan Jurgens, (writer of Thor) will touch upon the issue at all in upcoming issues, given that he's preparing to have Thor take over the Earth and all...

As for why the "Powers that Be" in the Real World, (the executives at Marvel, that is) wanted such a drastic change in Creel's character, see below, but I warn you, I'm about to give 

SPOILERS!!!

In particular to...(last chance! SPOILERS!!!)

The Hulk movie.  If you haven't seen the Hulk movie, you might not want to go down any further.

It seems the change was deemed neccesary because the Absorbing Man is "sorta" the main villian in the Hulk movie.  It's not really Crusher Creel, but a character in the movie has his powers.  

I can pretty much picture what happened:  The Executives turned to Bruce Jones, writer of the Hulk, and said, "Look, we need the Absorbing Man to appear in The Hulk comic because of a character like him in the movie.  It'll be like Paul Jenkin's Green Goblin storyarc in Peter Parker: Spiderman, that came out when the Spidey Movie came out."

To which I suspect Bruce Jones replied, "Okay, but I'm going to twist him and make him more appropriate for my dark, twisted version of the Hulk comic."

I'll quickly say I've enjoyed both versions, (Dan Jurgen's and Bruce Jones).  But it does cause problems when us readers are left scratching our heads as to how we got from one version of the Absorbing Man to the other...

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Re: Absorbing Man in Thor & Hulk
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 29, 2003 at 20:35:22:
In Reply to: Re: Absorbing Man in Thor & Hulk
posted by Kevin  on July 29, 2003 at 17:21:34:

> No, I believe it's better if Creel's appearances in Thor happen BEFORE his confinement and insanity in recent issues of Hulk, (and this is how I believe it is on Paul's calender, as well).  As for how he got from nice guy in Thor to Hannibal Lector in Hulk, it's unclear of the sequence of events in the comics, but there was obviously some sort of rift between Thor and Creel, which made Creel go off the deep end mentally, (perhaps his wife Titania passed away).  I doubt Dan Jurgens, (writer of Thor) will touch upon the issue at all in upcoming issues, given that he's preparing to have Thor take over the Earth and all...

Yes, I have Crusher making his last appearance in Thor (T2 56) two months before the current Hulk storyline.

BUT, I do have CURRENT issues of Thor occurring after current issues of Hulk, mostly because of temporal references -- "February" in H3 55 and "Spring isnt here yet, but its right around the corner" in T2 62.  So I'm hoping Creel has already left the Thorist band -- either behind the scenes in T2 or in a future flashback in H3 -- to flip out and go dark.

If that doesn't end up working, and if one of the Crushers doesn't turn out to be a clone or something, then the calendar will need some adjusting.

--Paul

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Re: Absorbing Man in Thor & Hulk
Posted by Paul O'Brien on July 30, 2003 at 06:32:52:
In Reply to: Re: Absorbing Man in Thor & Hulk
posted by Kevin  on July 29, 2003 at 17:21:34:

It may be that everything will make sense once the Thor War is out of the way.  The Absorbing Man seems to have disappeared from that series; I'd be inclined to theorise that he goes nuts for whatever reason following his run in Thor.

The present Hulk story seems fairly easily moveable.

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Chronology Review for Punisher issues 1-12, (the 2000 miniseries).
Posted by Kevin  on July 29, 2003 at 19:47:15:

Well, here's my next batch of reviews.  I post these here for Paul's calender, but anyone should feel free to go over it if they wish, and let me know if there's anything wrong.

I know this miniseries events will probably go before the summer prior to Sept. 11th, (which is where your calender starts) but I figured since you were slowly backing the calender back to A3 10, (published in '98)this would need added.  This miniseries is probably set in the Fall/Winter/Spring prior to where we have Sept. 11th fall on the calender.

Punisher, Vol. 3 (5*), #1
Welcome Back, Frank
Written by Garth Ennis
Drawn by Steve Dillon

*Special note:  Though inside the comic, its listed as Punisher, Vol. 3, The MCP lists this miniseries as Vol. 5.  I tend to believe the MCP on this one, as Marvel is prone to forgetting at times what volume of a series theyre on.

Published: February, 2000

Also published that month:  Cap. America #28, FF #28, Avengers #27, Iron Man #27, Hulk #13, PP:SM #16, ASM #16, Thunderbolts #37, X-men #99, Daredevil #12, (at least thats what it advertises on one page inside this issue, but I think DD was behind at this point, and was actually around DD2 10.

Appearances:  Punisher aka Frank Castle, New characters:  Spacker Dave, (no real name given), Mr. Bumpo, (no first name given), and Joan, (no last name given).

Synopsis:  ENTIRE ISSUE HAPPENS ON 1 DAY.

This is the first issue of what can be called the return of the Normal Punisher.  There were two short miniseries that were published in late 98, and 99, which featured a supernatural Punisher, a Punisher who worked for Angels.  The story fell on its face; nobody liked it.  Punisher returns to his roots with this miniseries, as just a regular human being on a one man war to kill all criminals.  How he gets from being supernatural back to being normal, is explained below in the reference section for this issue.

In this issue, to sum it up quickly, Punishers decided hes been gone from New York City and not fighting the criminal element for too long.  He decides to send a wake up message to criminals in the form of taking down one of the major mob families in New York, (is it just me, or hasnt he killed all of them by now?)  He decides to start with The Gnucci Family, and old Italian mob family.

He starts by bursting in on a major drug sale, killing everyone there.  He started to let one guy live, a guy who said he was just there to feed his addiction, to just get a joint.  Frank tells the guy hes going to give him one chance to clean up.   But after Punisher walks off this guy calls up a friend asking for him to come pick him up along with all the money and drugs that the Punisher has seemingly left behind, saying theyll make a fortune.  The Punisher walks back into the room, and the guy suddenly realizes he blew his one chance to reform, and the Punisher snaps his neck.   He then pours gasoline everywhere and blows that warehouse, drugs, money, and all the bodies inside, to hell.

Frank heads home for a little bit, and we see where hes living now:  a small run down apartment complex in a bad side of town.  Here, we are also introduced to his neighbors, and to Garth Ennis twisted sense of humor.  First person we see is a 20 something stoner type fellow, (we never see him doing drugs, but hes got that personality) with piercings all over his face, over his eyes, ears, nose, and lips.  Hes always hanging out on the front doorsteps to the apartment, and he likes to be called Spacker Dave.  Next we see a fat man stuck in the door to his apartment just down the hallway from Franks own apartment.  This is Mr. Bumpo, the source of numerous fat jokes.  Frank pulls Mr. Bumpo out of his door.  Finally, in an apartment close to Franks own, we meet Joan, a quiet, meek woman, who always politely says hello to Frank when he comes in from work.  Shes shy and neurotic, fearful of practically everything around her, so she rarely ventures forth from her apartment.

Frank reloads inside his own apartment, (and we see hes stocked to the hilt with guns), and heads back out on the town.  He goes down to the city morgue, where he finds what he expected:  One of the Gnucci bosses is in the morgue checking on his brother, who was one of creeps Frank blew away in the drug deal earlier that day.  Frank calmly walks into the morgue, and blows this Gnucci boss and his personal flunkies away.

Cut to a short time later, as Frank is tracking down a Third Gnucci boss, (all three are brothers) who hasnt heard about his dead brothers yet.  This Gnucci is out on a date, (with a escort girl) and has decided to take his date up to the top floor of the Empire State Building, (to the very top floor which is closed off to the public generally, but he buys his way in with a handful of cash to the right tour guide).  Frank gets to the top floor himself by threatening the tour guide.  Upstairs, he chases the escort off, and ties up this Gnucci brother, carrying him up on the roof.  From there, he throws him off, watching him fall to the ground below.  Its business as usual for Frank.  Hes just killed off the three sons of Ma Gnucci, the head of the Gnucci crime family, and he couldnt be happier.

References:  The Twin Towers are in the background on final page.  But they would be of course. This was published in Feb. 2000.  On your calender, Paul, may I suggest you put this miniseries in the Winter/Spring of the year your calender starts, a few months before the Marvel Universes Sept. 11th, or possible the Fall/Winter of the year prior.

As for the weather, I cant be sure what Season it is, but theres green grass in some scenes, and everyone wears different clothes.  Mr. Bumpo and Spacker Dave wear a short sleeve shirt, (of course, hes always wearing a short sleeve shirt), the Punisher and the mob guys are wearing long sleeve trench coats, (but thats to hide their guns).  

Now, as for how we got from Angel Punisher, back to Normal Punishersince they wanted to put that embarrassing chapter behind them as fast as possible, they had Garth explain in it the simplest terms.  During the scene in which Frank tosses the Gnucci brother off the Empire State Building, Frank thoughts give us the following narrative:

Frank:  I caught a glimpse of heaven once.  The Angels showed me.  The idea was Id kill for them.  Clean up their mistakes on Earth.  Eventually redeem myself.  Tried it.  Didnt like it.  Told them where to stick it.  

So they brought me up to heaven, to see what Id be missing.  A wife. A son. A daughter.  All finally at peace.  I hadnt seen them since they bled out in my arms.  Then I was cast down.  Back to a world of killers, rapists, psychos, and perverts.  A brand new evil every minute, spewed out as fast as men can think them up.  

A world where pitching a criminal dwarf, (Kevin: cause hes a short guy) off a skyscraper to tell his fellow scum youre back is a sane and rationale act.  The Angels thought it would be Hell for me.  But they were WRONG.

And then the body hits the street far below, and Frank looks out onto the skyline of the city, satisfied.

Frank:  Welcome back, Frank.  Says New York City.

And thats how it ends.

Punisher, Vol. 3 (5), #2
Badaboom, Badabing
Written by Garth Ennis
Drawn by Steve Dillon

Appearances:  Punisher, Mr. Bumpo, Spacker Dave, Joan, New characters:  Ma Gnucci, Det. Martin Soap, Buddy Bud Plugg, and Father Redondo, AKA The Holy

Synopsis:   MAIN EVENTS OF PAGES 1-18 HAPPEN ON 1 DAY, THE DAY AFTER LAST ISSUE.  THE EPILOGUE ON PAGES 19-22 HAPPENS ON A DIFFERENT DAY, ILL EXPLAIN BELOW, AROUND ISSUE 6.

Pg. 1-18:  The city reacts the day after the murders from last issue with panic by some people, and a smile from others.  Ma Gnucci calls up the mayor, and reminds him that she has photos of a sexual romp he had in Vegas, (he was supposed to be there on business).  The Mayor in turn calls up and reminds the Commissioner of Police that he was with the Mayor on that little party trip in Vegas.  The Commish in turn calls up his Police Sergeant and demands that something be done about the Punisher, (even though the entire New York Police Force loves the Punishers deeds).  The Police Sergeant in charge of investigating the Punishers latest spree puts 1 person in charge of the case:  A Det. Martin Soap, a loser who has never successfully gotten any criminals convicted, (but not from lack of trying: he has had an unending string of bad luck).  The Sergeant says hes putting Det. Soap in charge of a task force, and hands over every single file the police dept. has on the Punisher: Its a room full of a mountain of paperwork.  It is soon revealed that Soap has only 1 member on his task force: a just graduated from college Criminal Psychologist named Buddy Bud Plugg.   Its apparent that they want Soap to fail at catching the Punisher, (and at the same time, theyve fooled the corrupt Mayor and Commissioner into thinking theyre doing something about the Punisher).

Punisher, meanwhile, is still on his killing spree.  He manages to spy on Ma Gnuccis top Businessman, who is having a meeting in a restaurant with 3 top knotch assasins.  The Businessman tells the assassins to meet him that night at 9 oclock, to get a bunch of weapons to hunt the Punisher with, along with a down payment on their fee for hunting the Punisher.  After the meeting adjourns, Frank hunts down the 3 assassins, one by one, and kills them before they can attend the 9 PM meeting.  

Frank returns to his dingy apartment for a bit, and is brought cookies from the reclusive neighbor Joan.  Not wanting to offend her, (lest she break down and cry right on the spot, thus attracting attention, which is what she looks like shes about to do) he accepts the cookies.  Frank knows shell be back though, expecting friendship

Frank later shows up at the meeting place in the assassins place.  He catches Ma Gnuccis businessman in his car, takes control of the vehicle, and speeds down the road, forcing the man to dial up Ma Gnucci on the phone.  Upon hearing Mas voice on the speaker phone, Frank says hes taken care of the assasins, hes killed her sons, hes about to kill her business man, and he says hes coming for her next.  He then forces the man to jump out of the car as he is speeding around 100 miles per hour down the freeway.  The guy does, and he survives the initial fall onto the road, but hes abruptly run over by a semi truck a moment later.

Pgs 19-22:  Meanwhile, in a confessional booth at an impoverished Catholic church in the Spanish Harlem part of New York city, a priest is taking the confession from a man whom he soon discovers is a gangster punk who sells drugs on the streets and kills people for a living.  This gangster is very casual about his killing and drug dealing, and he flippantly asks the priest to absolve him of his sins.  The Priest, whos been gasping in horror at the sins this guys confessing, suddenly becomes angry.  He opens up his booth, picks up an ax, (which he apparently has kept on hand) and opens up the booth where the gangster sits and hacks him to pieces!  Alls the Gangster is able to spout off in fear is Holy-!  To which this priest replies, Yes!  I am: THE HOLY!  And you want Absolution?  Well, Ill give it to you!  Upon finishing hacking up the guy, the priest regains his sanity, and says, Oh LordI did it AGAIN!!!

References:  The Business Man says, 3 very good friends of mine died last night.  So this issue is the next day after Issue 1.

Punisher, Vol. 3 (5), #3
The Devil by the Horns
Written by Garth Ennis
Drawn by Steve Dillon

Appearances:  Punisher, Daredevil, Mr. Bumpo, Spacker Dave, Joan, Det. Martin Soap, Buddy Bud Plugg, and The Holy

Synopsis:  EXCEPT FOR THE PAGES THAT HAVE THE HOLY, THESE PAGES TAKE PLACE OVER TWO DAYS, STARTING ON WHATS PROBABLY THE FOLLOWING EVENING AFTER LAST ISSUE.  ILL EXPLAIN WHY THE HOLY PAGES HAVE TO GO ON DIFFERENT DAYS ON A TIMELINE BELOW, AROUND ISSUE 6. 

Pg. 1-5:  Punisher takes out a whole bunch of Ma Gnuccis thugs, who were hanging out at a bar.  Hes trying to thin the ranks of Mas army of Mafioso goons.

Pg. 6-7:  Bud Plugg turns in a psychological profile of the Punisher.  Psyche profiles are all he knows how to do.  Det. Soap says he doesnt need this, he already knows what makes the Punisher tick:  the guy hates criminals for them killing his family.  He tells Bud, (politely mind you, hes not wanting to hurt Buds feelings)  for him to go work predicting where the Punisher will strike next, saying thats what a good profiler is supposed to do.

Pg. 8-9:  Father Redondo is cleaning up the body he just hacked up last issue, when in comes one of his church faithful, a little old lady whos old, senile, practically blind, and practically deaf.  She apparently comes around once a week or so to do the cleaning.  He cant get her to leave, and since she cant see worth a hoot, he justs gets her to clean up the blood while he drags off the body.

Pg. 10-11:  Punisher comes home, to go over his next move.  As he enters his apartment, Joan the mouse pops her head out of her door and asks hesitantly if he liked the cookies.  He says yes, and closes his door.  He looks over a newspaper he bought, which has the headline Gnucci Family hire Nelson and Murdock.  It seems Ma Gnuccis brother, Dino Gnucci is a bit of a psychopath, and everyone, (even the mayor and the Commish, and possibly even Ma Gnucci herself) want him thrown in jail.  The problem is, he didnt commit the murder hes accused of.  Yeah, he is a murderer, but hes being framed by other mobsters.  Thus, since Matt Murdock, (and his ability to tell whether someone is lying or not) since he can tell Dino is innocent, (at least of this crime) he has taken the case.  Frank knows that wherever Matt Murdock goes, his old nemesis Daredevil isnt very far behind, so he begins planning

Pg. 12:  Det. Soap goes into Bud Pluggs office to find the guy didnt appreciate his constructive criticism of his paper on the Punisher, and has hung himself! 

Pg. 13-21:  The Next day, Punisher is waiting on a roof top for a squadcar to deliver Dino Gnucci back to his jail cell: its the end of the first day of trial.  Suddenly,  Daredevil is standing behind Frank.  DD starts to tell Frank to drop the gun, giving a speech about how he must not kill criminals, (which is obviously where the two crime fighters differ).  Frank says, Ive heard it all before.  Attack me.  They fight, and of course, at first, DD has the upperhand.  But Frank pulls out a remote control device and sets off a high pitched dog whistle, (having studied his old nemesis, he knows DD has a weakness against loud sounds).  DD is disoriented severly, and Frank knocks him out.  Frank wants to teach this holier than though crimefighter a lesson.

DD wakes up to find hes tied up on the rooftop not far from Frank.  Frank is looking over the edge, aiming his sniper rifle.  The squadcar delivering Dino Gnucci is just pulling up below.  DD finds he has a gun in one hand, and its the only part of him untied.  Frank says DD has one chance to stop him: he doesnt have time to untie himself, and his body it tied up so that he can only manage a head shot: he cant wound Frank.  So if DD wants to stop Frank from killing the criminal below, hes going to have to shoot him.  DD says he cant do that, begs Frank to not shoot, and that they can talk it over.   His choice is either to let Frank kill the criminal, or for DD to kill Frank.  DD says, What type of choice is that?  To which Frank replies, The same choice I make everyday when I kill.  

In other words, Frank kills to prevent the criminals from killing anyone else ever again.  When DD sees he cant stop Frank, he says, God forgive me, and he aims and fired at Frank.  It clicks.  It was an empty gun.  Frank fires his sniper rifle, killing Dino Gnucci below.  DD looks down at the ground defeated.  Frank walks over to him and says, Its okay, you can leave the killing to me.  With that, he knocks DD out again, and unties him, leaving him alone.

Pg. 22:  Father Redondo is in his church alone, begging for forgiveness, for these fits of insanity that come over him, making him kill criminals. He also prays for forgiveness for involving the little old lady, for having her clean up his mess, (he told her it was spilt communion wine).  Suddenly, another gangster punk walks into his church, saying, Yo, can you hurry up?  I need to confess my sins.  Then, I gotta go commit some more sins.  That strange look comes into Father Redondos eyes again, and you can tell hes about to kill again.

References:  Father Redondo, The Holy tells the senile cleaning lady, (who thinks its Tuesday, the day shes supposed to come in to clean that today is actually Friday.  So its Friday.

But in the next scene, Frank is in his apartment, saying the first day of trail for Dino is tomorrow.  That would make the day the trial starts Saturday.  No trial starts on Saturday.  Stay tuned, theres a timeline below.

The Senile old lady, (noticing the body the Father is dragging out, and thinking its a giant turkey) says, Thanksgivings not for months.

The paper Frank is reading about Matt Murdock taking Dino Gnuccis case has a photo of Dino Gnucci and Matt standing side by side.   I figure the photo was taken the day prior, when the story broke of Matt taking his case.

There is light rain on the night Punisher confronts DD.

Punisher, Vol. 3 (5), #4
Wild Kingdom
Written by Garth Ennis
Drawn by Steve Dillon

Appearances:  Punisher, Ma Gnucci, Det. Martin Soap, The Holy, new character:  Lt. Molly Von Richthofen.  

Synopsis:  ALL EVENTS, (EXCEPT FOR PAGES WITH THE HOLY) HAPPEN ON THE SAME DAY, WHICH IS THE DAY AFTER LAST ISSUE.

Pg. 1:  Soap and his boss the Police Sergeant are reading the suicide note left by the loser Bud Plugg who hung himself last issue.  The Police Sergeant is laughing at it, but Det. Soap really does feel bad about it.

Pg. 2-5: The Punisher is spying on Ma Gnucci and her personal bodyguards, who are out shopping on the town.  Hes trying to get an idea of what type of opposition hes up against, when one of her bodyguards spots him and fires on Frank, wounding him in the shoulder and side.  Punisher runs off through a nearby park, till he comes across the New York City Zoo on the other side, (which is closed for the evening).  He breaks in, and Ma Gnucci and her 3 bodyguards run in after him, wanting to take him out.

Pg. 6:  Det. Soap retreats to his office in defeat.  He hears the laughter of his fellow cops echoing down the hallway: they mocking him as a killer since he drove Bud to suicide.

Pg. 7-12:  Punisher, (who dropped his weapon being shot, and really wasnt prepared to face Ma Gnucci head on tonight), decides hes have to use what weapons he can find.  So when the bodyguards split up, he hunts them down, (still wounded mind you) and feeds one guard to a water tank filled with piranhas, and then feeds another to a python snake.

Pg. 13-14:  Meanwhile, an attractive lady walks into the dejected Det. Soaps office. She introduces herself as Lt. Molly Von Richthofen of the NYPD.  She says shes the lone member of the task force thats supposed to take down the Gnucci crime family.  She says like Soap, shes being screwed over as well, (for not sleeping with the Police Commissioner), and shes been given this impossible job to do by herself, (just like Soaps been given the impossible job of capturing the Punisher: the higher ups want both of them to fail).  Molly says that now that the Punisher is targeting the Gnucci family, they should team up.  Her strategy is: eventually Frank is going to go after Ma Gnucci directly.  When that happens, one will kill the other, and they can sweep in a clean up the remains, arresting whoevers left alive.  Soap accepts her offer of teaming up.

Pg. 15-19:  Punisher, (still running through the zoo) ducks into another animals dwelling area, (a pit) and rounds the corner to find its inhabited by sleeping polar bears.  Ma Gnucci and her last bodyguard have spotted Frank, and are rushing into the dwelling as well.  One of the polar bears wakes up momentarily giving Frank a sleepy look.  Frank punchs the bear in the face and runs off, running right by Ma Gnucci and the guard, who are caught momentarily off guard.  The two dummies turn to see what Frank was running from just in time to be confronted by a pack of now angry polar bears.  It isnt pretty.  Frank runs off when he hears the approaching police sirens.

Pg. 20-21:  Meanwhile, The Holy is burying the body of the thug who approached him at the end of last issue.  Hes in a garbage dump digging a shallow grave, crying and asking God why hes forsaken him, since he cant control himself, and keep from killing thugs.  He asks for a sign. Suddenly, a copy of a newspaper flies on the wind into his face.  He looks over the headline and reads a little.  Its a news article about the Punisher.  Suddenly hes all happy, considering its a sign for him to take up the vigilante cause just like the Punisher has.  

Pg. 22:  Molly and Soap arrive on the scene of the zoo homicide.  They figure so much for our team up because at first they think Ma and her guards are all dead, but then they learn Ma Gnucci actually lived, and is being hauled off to the hospital right now!

References:  The newspaper that the Holy reads features a headline to an event that mustve happened yesterday.  It reads, Another Gnucci down! and in smaller print, it reads, Tagged and BaggedDino Gnucci is zipped up.  Punisher Does it Again.

This is the guy Punisher sniped last issue, of course.

Punisher, Vol. 3 (5), #5
Even Worse Things
Written by Garth Ennis
Drawn by Steve Dillon

Appearances:  Punisher, Ma Gnucci, Det. Martin Soap, Lt. Molly Von Richthofen, Spacker Dave, Joan, Mr. Bumpo, the Holy, new characters:  Mr. Payback,  Elite.

Synopsis:  ALL EVENTS, (EXCEPT FOR PAGES WITH THE HOLY) HAPPEN ON THE SAME DAY.

Pg. 1-5:  We find out what happened to Ma Gnucci:  shes lost both of her arms and both of her legs due to the polar bear attack.  Shes sitting in her bed at home, bitter as can be, (having just been released from the hospital) and one of her family members, the stupid cousin walks up and asks how shes doing.  Shes like, How do you think Im doing!  She demands one of her thugs kill her Cousin Stevie.  When that thug says maybe shes just taking this a little two harshly, she demands another thug kill the 1st thug, and Cousin Stevie.  Everybody keeps trying to get her to calm down, till she gets to a thug who finally wises up:  what Ma Gnucci asks for, Ma Gnucci gets.  He kills 2nd thug, 1st thug, and Cousin Stevie, all of whom are begging Ma to reconsider.  

Pg. 6-7:  Punisher has meanwhile been resting at home.  Hes just getting home from going out for a bit, (maybe he went out for a bite to eat) when he sees Mr. Bumpo being dragged out to an ambulance; he had a heart attack.  They had to tear down a wall to get him out; hes too fat to fit through the door. 

Pg. 8-9:  Molly and Soap discuss their next move in a bar/restaurant where Soap likes to hang out, (the place is a dump).  They figure theyll continue to watch Ma Gnuccis place, figuring the Punisher will come there to finish the job.

Pg. 10-11:  The Holy kills again, this time shouting, (while hacking with his ax at some creep in the confessional booth) Praise God, for Im not alone! in reference to the Punisher, whom he is suddenly smitten with.  The cleaning lady, (Mrs. Pearce) comes in and asks what hes hollering about, (she cant see or hear well of course), and The Holy just says that hes spilled the communion wine in the confessional booth, and asks for her help in cleaning it up.

Pg. 12-15:  Meanwhile, we cut to a new character.  In a fancy, Executive Boardroom in some rich companys skyscraper, a corporate executives conference is meeting.  Suddenly, a masked man carrying an uzi marches into the conference, declaring that this company has blood on their hands, for letting American employees go, and forcing poor people in other countries to work for small pay and in unsafe conditions, (wherein he says people have died).  He also says that Americans have died do to unsafe products, which they covered up as being unsafe.  He guns the lot of them down.

Pg. 16-19:  Meanwhile, we cut to another new character:  On a rich mans street, in the upperclass section of New York, a car full of drug dealers from the inner city is cruising around, looking to sell some drugs to the rich people of this neighborhood.  A masked man walks up and asks them to leave.  They tell him to get bent, and so he pulls out a gun, and kills them, saying that this is a nice neighborhood, and we cant have scum like you dirting it up.

These psychos have all been inspired by the Punishers renewed fight against the mob, to take up arms against sinners, greedy executives, and lowlife drug dealers.

Pg. 20-21:  Punisher is walking the streets of New York that evening, testing to make sure hes healed enough.  A stupid thug comes up and tries to mug him.  Punisher, (whod been expecting lots more this evening) says, Well, its not much, but itll do. And he kills the mugger.  Punisher determines hes as healed as hes going to get: tomorrow night, he goes after Ma Gnucci himself.

Pg. 22:  Meanwhile, back at Ma Gnuccis mansion that evening, one of Ma Gnuccis men lets a man into see her.  This man explains he knows where the Punisher lives!

References:  Ma Gnucci says, (as she lays in her bed at home recovering):  Ten days ago, I was fed to a pack of Polar Bears.  So the events of Issue 4 happened 10 days ago.

Mrs. Pearce, (in her senile fashion) says to Father Redondo, (the Holy):  Eight oclock on Monday Evening:  Time for cleaning.

To Which The Holy replies: Its lunchtime, and this is Thursday, Mrs. Pearce.  But you drop by whenever you like!  So its Thursday.

But using that comment, along with the 10 days ago, places the events of Issue 4 on a Monday.  That cant be, since the day prior had been the day of Issue 3s trial, and they dont have trials on Sunday.  See timeline below, (after issue 6).  

In the scene where Punisher kills the 1 lone mugger while walking the streets, he complains about how safe the streets of New York have become in recent years.  He says, Guilliani has a lot to answer for.  Which is a joke about Mayor Guilliani, whos been tough on crime in New York City.  I just wanted to point out that Guilliani is Mayor here.  

Punisher, Vol. 3 (5), #6
Spit out of Luck
Written by Garth Ennis
Drawn by Steve Dillon

Appearances:  Punisher, Ma Gnucci, Det. Martin Soap, Lt. Molly Von Richthofen, Mr. Payback, Elite, Spacker Dave  

Synopsis:  ALL EVENTS (EXCEPT FOR PAGES 1-2) HAPPEN ON THE SAME DAY, WHICH IS THE DAY AFTER LAST ISSUE.

Pg. 1-2:  continues right where we left off last issue, (so actually, I guess this first part is SAME DAY AS LAST ISSUE).  This neighbor of the Punisher explains to Ma Gnucci that About 10 days ago he was looking out his window, when he saw the Punisher stumbling into the Apartment complex across the street, wounded and dripping blood.  He says he heard that the mob has a bounty on the Punishers head, and hes hoping to collect.  Ma Gnucci tells two of her men to go with this guy, and to watch the apartment, and see if the Punisher comes out of it, and if so, to let her know.

Pg. 3-4:  Here we see a string of news report that discuss the Punishers return, and the string of recent copycat killer, including Mr. Payback, and Elite, and the finding of some shallow graves with hacked up bodies in them, (they dont know whos doing that).

Pg. 5-6:  Meanwhile, a corporate helicopter is flying through the skies on its way back to their executive headquarters.  Inside is the CEO of the company which got shot up yesterday.  A yes sir businessman in the seat next to him says that this Mr. Payback is spreading lies about their company.  The CEO says that in fact, most of what Mr. Payback has said about them is true.  He says hes the CEO, and he should know what his own company is up to, (which he says with a huge amount of smugness).

They suddenly look over and catch sight of Mr. Payback, whos standing on a rooftop nearby.  He suddenly holds up a bazooka, and blows them out of the sky.

Pg. 7-9:  Meanwhile, another drug dealers car comes through the rich neighborhood, the driver inside apparently a friend of one of the thugs that Elite shot up yesterday.  He and his buddies want vengeance on this Elite fellow.  Their in an open convertible, when suddenly, they start dropping dead: theyre being sniped from a window somewhere above them.  As they all fall over dead, we cut to a window above, where we see the Elite aiming down from.  Hes in a fancy restroom, with a towel around his waist, his mask on his face.  Theres a knock at the door.  A kid on the other side says, Dad, mom says to hurry up!  The opera starts in 1 hour! Or something like that.  Elite says hell be right down, stuffing the gun and mask in a crawl space in the ceiling.

Pg. 10-11:  Punisher stuffs his duffel bag with explosives, and a lot of extra guns, preparing to go out and take down Ma Gnucci.  On his way out the door, he says goodbye to Spacker Dave, (thinking in his mind, that after tonight, he can move on, and get away from his weirdo neighbors).

In a car nearby, just across the street, the two thugs and the informant spot him leaving.  They give the informant a wad of cash, tell him to get lost, and they call up Ma Gnucci.  Ma tells his soldiers to roll out and kill the Punisher.

Pg. 12-13:  Outside Ma Gnuccis mansion, a tired Det. Soap and Molly are casing the place from Soaps car.  Theyre getting sleepy, waiting for something to happen, so they start playing a movie trivia game.  Suddenly, a string of cars pull out of Mas driveway speeding off.  They quickly conclude that they must have found the Punisher, and are going to take him out.  Soap at first wants to take off after them, to catch the Punisher, but Molly explains that they probably wont be able to kill him, and theyre still better off waiting here, for Frank to go after Ma herself.

Pg. 14-22:  Just a block and a half away from Franks apartment, (he keeps his car hidden 2 blocks away) Ma Gnuccis thugs pull up, and all hell breaks loose as a gunfight ensues.  Frank, who had extra guns and an explosive device on him, (which he had planned on using on Ma, at her mansion) is able to hold his own against the numerous thugs that have been sent to kill him.

That is, till he gets down to the last couple and runs out of ammo.  He manages to slit the throat of one of the last two thugs, but the last guy shoots Frank, and it manages to penetrate his Kevlar armor.  Frank just grimaces and marches towards the thug, and the guy shoots Frank over and over in the chest again, (6 times total), and he just stands there stunned:  he cant believe Frank is still standing, let alone coming towards him).  Frank grabs the thug and breaks his neck, then collapses to the ground, where he falls unconscious, (and fears hes dying).

References:  The news reports all refer to the string of vigilante attacks, (specifically to Mr. Payback and Elites attacks) as happening yesterday.  So last issue happened yesterday.

If we take the Holys comments on which day of the week it is in his scenes, (and I dont see why we shouldnt) then the following timeline for the first 6 issues becomes necessary.

Day 1: Friday:  Punisher #1:  The Punisher kills 3 of Ma Gnuccis sons.

Also on this date:

Punisher #2, pages 19-22:  The Holy is shown hacking up a sinner in his confessional booth.

Punisher #3, pages 8-9:  The Holy is cleaning up the body he hacked up last issue.  He tells the senile cleaning lady, (who thinks its Tuesday) that today is actually Friday.

Day 2:  Saturday:  Punisher #2, pages 1-18:  Punisher kills 3 assassins who were hired to kill him, then he kills Ma Gnuccis Consigliore, and tells Ma over the phone that hes coming for her next.

Day 3:  Sunday:  Punisher #3, pages 1-7:  Punisher kills more of Mas thugs.  Det. Soap and Bud Plugg go over Psychological evaluation.

Punisher #3, Pages 10-11:  Punisher decides to take out Ma Gnuccis brother, Dino Gnucci, at the end of his first day of trial, which starts, Tomorrow.  

Day 4: Monday, Punisher, #3, pages 12-21:  Det. Soap finds that Bud Plugg hung himself out of shame.  Meanwhile, Punisher kills Dino Gnucci and beats up Daredevil.  

Day 5: Tuesday, Punisher #3, page 22:  Another victim walks into Father Redondos church, and The Holy prepares to kill again.

Punisher #4, pages 1-19:  Punisher is wounded by one of Ma Gnuccis bodyguards, but he manages to lead Ma and her guards into the New York City Zoo, where he manages to feed them to different animals.

Punisher #4, pages 20-21:  The Holy is burying his latest victim in a shallow grave in a garbage dump, when he gets a sign from God upon reading a newspaper article about the Punisher killing Dino Gnucci.

Punisher #4, page 22:  Det. Soap and Lt. Von Richthofen arrive on the scene of the Zoo murders to find Ma Gnucci lived!

Day 14:  Thursday:  Punisher #5, pages 10-11:  The Holy kills again.  He says to his church cleaning lady that today is Thursday.

Day 15:  Friday:  Punisher #5, pages 1-9, 12-22:  Ma Gnucci is recovering at home. She says she was fed to a pack of Polar Bears, 10 days ago.  Punisher decides hes recovered enough to go and take down Ma Gnucci tomorrow night.

Punisher #6, pages 1-2:  A neighbor of the Punisher rats him out to Ma Gnucci, saying It was about 10 days ago when he saw a wounded Punisher return home, (from his battle at the Zoo).

Day 16:  Punisher #6, pages 3-22:  By the end of the issue, Frank has started to make his way to Ma Gnuccis place, but is ambushed by Mas men.  A gunfight ensues, and Frank manages to kill them all, but he himself is severly wounded as well.

There.  That covers the first 6 issues.  Everything after this point is pretty clear and linear.

Punisher, Vol. 3 (5), #7
Bring out your Dead
Written by Garth Ennis
Drawn by Steve Dillon

Appearances:  Punisher, Ma Gnucci, Det. Martin Soap, Lt. Molly Von Richthofen, Joan, Spacker Dave, The Holy, Mr. Payback, Elite.  

Synopsis:  CERTAIN PAGES HAPPEN ON THE SAME DAY AS LAST ISSUE, SEE SYNOPSIS BELOW.  THE REST OF THE PAGES HAPPEN THE FOLLOWING DAY.

Pg. 1:  Frank wakes up a few moments after falling unconscious at the end of last issue.  (He says to himself that hes got to drag himself to his feet and get back to his apartment a block and a half away, to heal).  This happens same day as last issue.

Pg. 2-3:  The next morning, Molly and Soap arrive at the scene of the street massacre from last issue, going over there next move.  They get a call from their higher ups, asking them to go investigate this string of ax murders in the Spanish Harlem section of New York.  They decide to interview the Priest of a church where all of the murdered victims found were said to attend mass.

Pg. 4:  Punisher walks down the hallway in his apartment complex, trying to get to his room without collapsing. (this must happen last night, cause while Im sure it took a while to drag his ass in, if this was the next day, someone wouldve spotted him by now)

Pg. 5:  Ma Gnucci goes over what happened last night with the two thugs who had been spying on Franks apartment:  she chews them out for not making sure Punisher was dead.  They said they saw all their fellow thugs getting killed down the street, but figured there was enough men to kill the Punisher, so they came back home to Mas place.  Ma tells them to get their butts back out there to Franks apartment, and find out if hes dead or not.

Pg. 6:  Punisher makes it inside his doorway, and collapses.  Again, I feel this happened last night.

Pg. 7-8:  Soap and Molly arrive at Father Redondos Catholic Church.  He hastily closes the door to the confessional booth, (just got done killing another scumbag: the body is still inside), and talks to the two detectives.  He says he doesnt know who could be doing the killings.

Pg. 9-11:  Joan peeks out her apartment door, and sees a string of blood leading towards Franks door, (or to Mr. Smiths door, as he calls himself here).  The door is still ajar.  She creeps in, calling out Mr. Smiths name, hoping hes okay.  She opens up Franks closet, and notices the stockpile of weapons there.  She turns around to find herself staring into the face of Frank, who has a hazy expression on his face.  He falls over, unconscious again.

Pg. 12-13:  Meanwhile, Elite confronts a hot dog vendor.  The Hot dog vendor (which are quite common on the streets of New York, or so I understand) says he wants to try selling dogs up here in the rich neighborhood.  But Elite says he doesnt want the type of people who buy hot dogs in his neighborhood: so he blows up the guys hot dog cart.

Pg. 14-16:  Joan asks Spacker Dave, (whos usually content to sit on the front doorsteps to the Apartment complex with that stoned look on his face) to come in and help her.  She shows Dave the unconscious body of Frank, (who is still dress in his now bloody Punisher uniform).  They drag him into her apartment.  It turns out Daves a big fan of the Punisher.  Joan asks who the Punisher is.  He says Dont you watch the news? and she says no, cause it scares her.  So Dave explains to her that the Punisher kills criminals.  Dave asks her to keep quite, and to keep Frank stashed in her apartment.  Dave says more bad guys will probably come looking for Frank, to finish the job.

Pg. 17-19:  Meanwhile, Mr. Payback kills an corporate executive, who was being interviewed live on the street about his thoughts on Mr. Payback.  Mr. Payback then grabs the microphone from the distraught reporter, and gives a message to the public, and to the Corporate scumbags out there:  Payback is coming.

Pg. 20-22:  The Two thugs which Ma Gnucci sent to double check to see if the Punisher is dead are in a bar, eating what that think is their last supper, since they figure more than likely that the Punisher will kill them, unless he is dead, or wounded

They leave the diner, and go into Franks apartment.  They knock on Joans door and pose as police, asking if shes seen the Punisher.  She says no, and that she keeps to herself.  Frank is lying unconscious just inside on her bed.  

The two thugs then go knock on Spacker Daves door.  Dave, (looking through the eyepiece) can tell they arent really cops, and panics.  He opens up the door and blurts out something like, AAAHHH!  GO AWAY, I KNOW YOU GUYS,  AND YOU ARENT COPS, BUT IM NOT GOING TO CONFESS, YOULL NEVER FIND OUT WHERE THE PUNISHER IS HIDING FROM ME!

And he slams the door in their face.  One of the two thugs says, Oh really

References:  Ma Gnucci says about the Punisher, Hes killed 80 of my soldiers in the last 2 weeks.  That makes sense: its been roughly 2 weeks going by the timeline.

The Holy is referenced to have killed 4 people by this point, (since 4 bodies have been found).  That makes sense:  The drug dealer he killed in issue 2, the one he was hinted as killing at the end of issue 3, and the guy he was hacking up in issue 5, plus, in issue 2, after killing the first one we see, he says, I did it again! and that makes 4.  And of course, he kills someone in this issue as well, but the police dont know about it: the body was fresh, and still in the confessional booth.

Punisher, Vol. 3 (5), #8
Desperate Measures
Written by Garth Ennis
Drawn by Steve Dillon

Appearances:  Punisher, Ma Gnucci, Det. Martin Soap, Lt. Molly Von Richthofen, Joan, Spacker Dave, New Character:  The Russian.  

Synopsis:  ALL EVENTS HAPPEN SAME DAY AS LAST ISSUE.

Pg. 1-2:  Punisher is lying in Joans bed, bleeding to death, (very slowly it seems).  The shy Joan gets up the courage to finally ask Frank a question:  <p>Why do you do it? she asks.  To which he replies, uuhh?  To which she says, Kill criminals, I mean.  Why do you do it?  The half dead Frank suddenly gets the strength to reply sternly, I hate them.  Joan replies, Oh.I thought it might be because you wanted to make the world a better place for good people.  Frank just lays there with this blank expression on his face.  Like that idea never occurred to him.  

Pg. 3:  Ma Gnucci gets a phone call from the two thugs she sent to snoop out the Punishers apartment. Theyve broken into Spacker Daves apartment, and tell Ma theyre about to make him talk: theyre sure hell give up where the Punisher is hiding.

After hanging up with her two men, Ma Gnucci asks one of the thugs in her room to pull out a rolodex, and for him to dial up The Russian.  Mas apparently decided she wants to take no more chances, so shes going to hire the ultimate assassin.

Pg. 4-5:  Soap and Molly go over their next move in the bar where they hang out.  Theyre getting drunk, Soap in particular is getting wasted, not happy with the way this case is going.

Pg. 6-9:  Joan wakes up the Punisher, who had fallen unconscious again.  She says that shes heard screams coming from Daves room for the last hour.  Frank asks her to help him up.  He manages to pull out a knife, apparently its the only weapon he has on him.  He gets Joan to drag him over to Daves apartment door, where inside he hears Dave saying, Never!  Ill never tell where the Punisher is!  He knocks on the door.  One of the two thugs opens it up, and Frank kills him.  Frank then proceeds to fall on the floor into Daves apartment.  The last remaining guy turns around and sees the Punishers practically unconscious on the floor in front of him. This thug thinks hes got Frank all to himself, but Frank, (with the last bit of effort) manages to throw the knife and kill the thug.  Its only then that Joan and Frank notice what they were doing to Dave: they were pulling out his face and ear piercings.

Pg. 10-11:  Molly and Soap continue their talk in the bar, when Soap, (whos feeling frisky) starts to hit on her.  She puts a stop to that real fast, admitting shes a lesbian, (and thats ONE reason why she refused to sleep with the Police Commissioner).  

Pg. 12-16:  A crime doctor arrives, to operate on Frank.  Frank found the number to the guy on the bodies of one of the dead thugs.  A guy that will operate on you without calling the police on you.  He has the doctor bandage up Daves face, (its completely covered in bandages now) then he operates on Frank, removing the bullets from his chest.  The Doctor comments that Franks got a strong grip on life, a fierce will to live.  Hours later, after the operation is over, and Franks half awake, about to fall asleep, (and either recover or die), he tells Joan to go into his room and get out 10,000 dollars from his personal stash, to give to the doctor.  As the doctor leaves, Frank starts to tell Joan one last thing.  Yes, Mr. Smith? she says, calling him by the name he gave all of his neighbors upon moving in.  In Franks mind, he thinks, Ah, what the hell and says to Joan, Call me Frank before falling unconscious.  She smiles, (the first smile shes given in the entire series) and says, Okay, Frank.

Pg. 17-22: NARRATIVE CAPTION READS:  KAZAKHSTAN.  We cut to a desolate shack out in the middle of rural Kazakhstan.  Approaching the shack on a nearby hill is a elite American Special Ops team.  They call themselves Bravo Force and claim to be the best in the business, but the squad leader warns his teammates to beware: this Russian fellow that theyre supposed to apprehend is supposedly one of the meanest characters out there.  

They rush into the shack, and as we watch the shack, we hear from inside screams, and a diabolical laughter, mixed with gunfire, explosions, and other sound effects.  One guy is tossed through the window to the ground outside.  From inside, the voice says, I will leave you alive to run back to your masters.  Tell them that no one can kill the Russian! or something like that.  Then, we see the leader of Bravo Force running away from the shack naked, his machine gun wrapped around his neck like a necklace.  As he runs, he screams, I WANT MY MOMMY!!!  

Inside, the phone rings.  The Russian, (who we see only outlined, we cant make out his features) picks up the phone. Its Ma Gnucci, who says she has a job for him.  The Russian says hell hop on the next plane to America.

References: none really.

Punisher, Vol. 3 (5), #9
From Russia with Love
Written by Garth Ennis
Drawn by Steve Dillon

Appearances:  Punisher, Ma Gnucci, Det. Martin Soap, Lt. Molly Von Richthofen, Joan, Spacker Dave, Mr. Bumpo, The Russian, The Holy, Elite, Mr. Payback. 

Synopsis:  ALL EVENTS HAPPEN ON THE SAME DAY.

Pg. 1-2:  Ma Gnucci has a conference call with other Italian mob bosses in New York City.  She says shes run out of men to throw at the Punisher, but the other crime lords refuse to lend her any of their own, not wanting to become the Punishers next target.  They hang up on her, and she cusses them out for their cowardice.  Then, one of her few remaining men lets in a visitor to see her:  Its the Russian, whom we now see fully.  Hes a big, blond, muscle bound Russian, who speaks with a bad Russian accent.  Its hilarious, trust me.

Pg. 3-4:  Frank is loading up stuff into his van, getting ready to move, (this is weeks later) having almost fully recovered.  Mr. Bumpo is heading into his apartment, pizzas in hand, having just been released from the hospital, (from that heart attack he had in Issue 5) when he tells Frank to keep on Punishing.  Frank turns to Mr. Bumpo, and Mr. Bumpo says Dont worry, I wont tell nobody.  Frank starts to ask where he heard who he was, but he figures it out for himself: Spacker Dave told Mr. Bumpo.

Pg. 5-8:  Ma Gnucci asks the Russian what took him so long to arrive.  The Russian says he was on plane to U.S., just like he told Ma he would be, and they were about to land in New York, when he says, But then I remembered: I am wanted man in most states.  So I do only thing I can think of: I open door, try to get out of plane.  It crashes in swamp.  Everything is hazy after that, but then I remember:  I supposed to come to New York to visit you, Ma!  So here I am!

Ma rolls her eyes, and informs him of his assignment: hes supposed to kill the Punisher.  The Russian, (who it turns out is a fan of American superheroes) says he never heard of the Punisher, but he accepts the job).

Pg. 9-10:  Frank confronts Dave about telling Mr. Bumpo his identity.  Spacker Dave says he couldnt resist: he had to tell somebody.  But he says he figures Mr. Bumpo had a right to know, with him living in the same place as Frank.  Frank tells Dave that thats why hes leaving: he doesnt want to put these 3 neighbors in any danger.  Dave protests, but Frank wont hear differently.  He tells Dave, Normally, when I want people who have met me and lived to be quiet, I threaten them.  Sometimes painfully.  But youre a good kid, Dave.  You took a lot of pain for over an hour, and refused to rat me out to those thugs.  So I owe you one.  But DONT TELL ANYONE ELSE WHO I AM!

Pg. 11-12:  Soap and Molly are sitting outside of Ma Gnuccis place, (like they have been for the last few weeks) and they see nothing is happening.  Just then, out the gate, driving in a car towards Franks apartment, we see the Russian being driven by one of Mas men.  Its time for the Russian to earn his keep. Molly and Soap wonder just who the blazes this guy is.

Pg. 13-15:  We see the news coverage about all the Punisher and copycat Punisher attacks.  Frank and all 3 of the other vigilantes are watching the exact same news report.  At the end, all 3 of the copycats (The Holy, Mr. Payback, and Elite) all say, That gives me an idea!  To which Frank, upon turning off the TV, says to himself, Oh really  He knows hes got to deal with these copycats soon

Pg. 16-19:  Soap and Molly are at their bar a bit later.  Molly pulled up info on the mystery perp in the car: she says his name is The Russian and hes wanted by everybody.  Hes a hitman of the highest order, wanted by the FBI, the CIA, Interpol, and all sorts of other countries.  He goes wherever trouble goes: he was in Afganistan in the 80s, Iraq in 91, Rwanda, Kosovo, wherever theres war.  He thrives on it.  Soap says theyll need to turn over this info to their bosses, but he knows theyll take the case away from them.  Molly says they should stick to the plan: continue surveillance of Ma Gnuccis mansion:  Franks bound to make a run on it eventually.

Pg. 20-22:  Joan confronts Frank.  She asks him why hes leaving.  He says its because hes putting them in danger.  Joan reveals she doesnt feel like shes in danger.  She says ever since she learned who Frank is, shes felt unafraid for the first time in her life.  She says shes scared of this city, and of all the terrible things that happen here.  She says shed love to move out to the countryside.  Frank asks why she doesnt leave.  She says shes too afraid to.  Turning to leave, she comments that this is a terrible world they live in.  Frank agrees.  Just then, we cut to the outside:  The Russian has arrived, and is walking up the steps into Franks apartment complex.

References:  Ma Gnucci says to the Russian, Its been 3 weeks since I called you.  So its been 3 weeks since last issue.  By this point, Frank is relatively well healed.

Also, Ill note here that we see: Green trees, short sleeve shirts on Mr. Bumpo and the Russian, (though Mr. Bumpos all fat, and the Russians all muscle, so they wouldnt need long sleeve outfits), and a lightsleeve jacket on Frank.

Punisher, Vol. 3 (5), #10
Glutton for Punishment
Written by Garth Ennis
Drawn by Steve Dillon

Appearances:  Punisher, Ma Gnucci, New Character:  The Russian, The Holy, Elite, Mr. Payback.

Synopsis:  ALL EVENTS HAPPEN ON SAME DAY AS LAST ISSUE, OVER THE COURSE OF A FEW HOURS

Since all events are on same day, youll forgive me I hope, if I dont give page numbers with this issue.

Frank hears a knock at the door, and opens it without checking, expecting to see Joan again.  He is punched in the face by the Russian, who makes his way in, and begins torturing Frank, (talking about how great American culture is, and how much he likes Superheroes).  

Meanwhile, Elite has just killed off a dope seller on his rich neighborhood where he hangs out, when a car pulls up.  Inside is Mr. Payback, who tells Elite to get in.  Elite asks why he would want to do that.  Mr. Payback says because theyre both on the same mission: to fight crime.  Elite gets into the passenger seat, commenting on how ugly and lowclass Mr. Paybacks car is.  Mr. Payback tells him to get over it:  he tells Elite theyre heading down to Spanish Harlem, to see if they can locate this Ax murderer, to join their cause.

Meanwhile, Ma Gnucci is sitting alone in her room.  One of her men enters and she asks him if theyve heard anything from the Russian.  The guy says the Russian has entered the apartment complex, but has yet to come out.  Ma decides to be patient: shes sure the Russian is having fun with Frank.<p>And thats exactly what the Russian is doing.  He picks the bruised and battered Frank off the floor and hands him a chair, saying for Frank to go ahead and take his best shot.  Frank knocks the Russian upside the head with the wooden chair, and it breaks apart.  The Russian just laughs, and says, My turn!  He walks into Franks bathroom, and we hear a twisting of metal.  The Russian comes back out with Franks toilet, and knocks Frank upside the head.  The torture continues.

At the same time, Molly and Soap are sitting in his car outside Ma Gnuccis apartment.    Soap finally breaks down and cries, figuring theyll never catch the Punisher, or Ma Gnucci, and then he starts moping that his partner will never fall in love with him.  Molly replies, Youre right about the last part.  She then scolds him, telling him to stop moaning.  Shes sure that this will all come to a conclusion in the next few hours:  If the Punisher beats the Russian, hes bound to come for Ma Gnucci herself.

Meanwhile, Elite and Mr. Payback are driving around Spanish Harlem, looking for this Ax murderer.  Elite says just driving around is not going to help, but suddenly, from out of a run down Catholic Church, a thug comes running out, clutching a wound in his chest.  Mr. Payback and Elite get out of the car asking the thug whats wrong.  He says that the priest inside went crazy after he told him in confession that he robbed a gas station last week; that the priest started to attack him with an ax.  Suddenly, The Holy runs out of the Church, still angry.  Before he can attack the thug again, Elite shoots the man dead.  The Holy just stares at the other two vigilantes in his midst, and all 3 get to talking.  They quickly come to the conclusion that they must work together.  And soon: they must get the Punisher to join them, as their leader.

Meanwhile, The Russian says to a bruised an battered Frank, whos laying on the floor, TIME FOR ROUND TWO BIG BOY!

References:  Its raining outside in the scene where Molly and Soap are outside Ma Gnuccis house.

Punisher, Vol. 3 (5), #11
Any Which Way You Can
Written by Garth Ennis
Drawn by Steve Dillon

Appearances:  Punisher, Ma Gnucci, The Russian, Joan, Spacker Dave, Mr. Bumpo, The Holy, Elite, Mr. Payback, Det. Martin Soap, Lt. Molly Von Richthofen

Synopsis:  ALL EVENTS IN THIS ISSUE HAPPEN ON SAME DAY AS LAST ISSUE, COVERING A FEW HOURS, GOING TILL ABOUT DAWN OF THE NEXT MORNING.

The Russians torture of Frank continues.  Still being punched around like a rag doll, and Frank can see no way of stopping him) Frank is flung through his own apartment door, landing in the hallway.  Joan and Spacker Dave are in the hallway, and they gasp upon seeing Franks being beaten up.  Dave says, We heard the racket in there, but we thought it was you doing the punishing, we didnt know it was you who was being punished!  The Russian steps into the hallway and sees Franks friends.  He says hell torture them when hes done with Frank.  

Frank picks himself off the floor and bursts into Mr. Bumpos room.  Mr. Bumpos sitting there eating one of his 10 pizzas.  Frank ask Mr. Bumpo if the pizzas hot, to which he replies yes.  As the Russian steps into Mr. Bumpos apartment, Frank flings the pizza in the Russians face, causing the big guy to claw at his face, momentarily blinded by the hot pizza.  Frank trips the Russian, who falls backwards.  The Russian gets the last of the pizza off his face and looks up to see Frank pushing a bewildered Mr. Bumpo out, and on top of him!  Mr. Bumpo falls down onto the Russian, and Frank jumps on top of Mr. Bumpo, telling him not to move.  The Russian struggles beneath the two, but apparently he cant lift the super fat Mr. Bumpo off of him, and he is quickly suffocating.

A few minutes later, Frank asks Mr. Bumpo about how many minutes its been.  Mr. Bumpo says he thinks its been about 20 minutes.  Frank tells him theyll wait another 10 minutes, just to be sure.

Meanwhile, inside Father Redondos church, him, Mr. Payback, and Elite are plotting.  They know they must make a huge strike, to show the criminals of New York City, that they wont take crime anymore.  But they cant agree. Mr. Payback wants to strike at Banks, saying these money institutions are the ones giving power to the corrupt corporations.  Elite thinks this makes no sense whatsoever, but Mr. Payback says its a better plan then Elites plan for Ethnic cleansing of poor neighborhoods.  The Holy has had enough and he smashs his ax down into the middle of the table.  He declares that the solution is simple:  First, theyll get the Punisher to join them; to lead them.  Then, theyll kill every last one of them: Every sinner, every greedy corporate worker, every lowlife thug on the streets.  Theyll kill them all.  Hes even thought up a name for their little group:  The Vigilante Squad.

Frank cuts off the head of the now suffocated Russian, just to make sure hes dead, and tells his neighbors that hes leaving, and not coming back.  Joan in particular looks sad.  Outside, the mobster who dropped the Russian off is waiting inside their car, waiting for the Russian to finish up with Frank.  Frank kills him and takes his car, packing a bunch of weapons from his stockpile into the vehicle.  He then drives off to Ma Gnuccis place.<p>As Frank enters the driveway to Mas place, Soap and Molly (from their own car) look on, surprised their perp finally showed up.  With excitement, they get out of the car and go on foot onto the grounds of the mansion.

Ma Gnucci is sitting in her living room, wondering why she has yet to hear from the Russian.  She suddenly hears a voice calling from outside, a voice calling her name.  She has one of her men carry her small body over to the window.  She looks down through the open window to see a bruised and battered Frank, (his injuries from the ordeal with the Russian) staring up at her: the severed head of the Russian in one hand!  He says, IS THAT ALL YOU GOT, MA?

The last few remaining soldiers of Ma Gnucci take one look at what Frank did to the feared Russian, and drop their guns and walk away.  Its just not worth fighting a man like the Punisher anymore.  Ma screams at them to come back, but they walk off, and Punisher figures its time to end this.

References:  Molly says, Its nearly 6 am when the Punisher shows up.  So the Russian and the Punishers dual took the better part of the night.

Punisher, Vol. 3 (5), #12
Go, Frank, Go
Written by Garth Ennis
Drawn by Steve Dillon

Appearances:  Punisher, Ma Gnucci, Joan, Spacker Dave, Mr. Bumpo, The Holy, Elite, Mr. Payback, Det. Martin Soap, Lt. Molly Von Richthofen

Synopsis:  EVENTS IN THIS ISSUE HAPPEN ON DIFFERENT DAYS, SEE BELOW:

Pg. 1-10:  Punisher is shown inside Ma Gnuccis room upstairs, pouring gasoline over everything.  Ma, (who of course has no arms and legs) just sits there in shock.  She cant believe its come to this.  She asks Punisher why hes doing this.  He says its simple: he kills criminals.  She says hes no better than she is, and as he walks off, she screams at him that hes a dead man walking, and that hes damned. He just steps outside and lights a match, setting the whole house ablaze, saying to himself, Tell me something I dont know, Ma.

Ma sees the flames rising around her, and in a frenzied bid for revenge, manages to lunge herself out the window.  She bounces off the ground and lands at Franks feet, biting at his heels like a mad dog.  He just kicks her body back into the flames, where she dies.  (Yes, Ill be the first to admit, Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon are two very messed up individuals, but what can you expect from the people who brought us Preacher, the Vertigo title over at DC).

Meanwhile, Det. Soap and Molly run through the trees in Mas huge front yard, till they get out in the open, only to behold that Frank has set the place on fire.  This is NOT what they expected.  Soap in particular is mad as hell, saying stuff like, so much for your brillant plan.  Yeah, lets wait for the Punisher to go after Ma herself.  

Just then, Frank appears behind them, startling them.  He says hello to My very own task force and says he has a proposition for them.  He asks for every bit of info the police have managed to collect on the copycat killers, and in exchange, hell give them some info he managed to grab from Ma Gnuccis personal safe, (which he opened while rummaging through Mas house).  They hesitantly take the offer, telling him what little they know about the 3 copycat killers.  He then hands them an envelope from Mas safe, then runs off.  As the police and firefighters arrive, Soap and Molly file a quick report with their police chief, then walk off.  They open up the contents of the envelope, to find:  pictures of the Police Commissioner and the Mayor doing some naughty stuff in Vegas!  This is what Ma Gnucci was using to blackmail the two officials into helping her in her war against the Punisher.  And now it all belongs to Soap and Molly, who just smile

Pg. 11-14:  TAKES PLACE NEARLY A MONTH LATER.  Joan sticks her head out of her door, thinking she heard something from Franks old apartment, (which he never did return to).  She gets Mr. Bumpo and Spacker Dave to follow her into Franks apartment.  Spacker Dave has decided to keep the bandages on his face that were placed there after all his facial and ear rings were pulled out: he thinks it looks even cooler than all that junk on his face.  Inside Franks abandoned apartment, they flip on the light, to see in the far corner 3 huge wads of cash.  In front of each on is a little note, addressed to each one of Franks 3 neighbors.  Spacker Dave starts tossing his cash into the air, and Mr. Bumpo comments hes going to use this money to buy every pizza in New York City.  Joan just picks up her note and reads it.  It says, Joan.  Just Go. Which is a reference to the conversation she and Frank had in Issue 8.  Frank was telling her if she wanted to leave New York, she should Just go.  Franks telling her to use the money to leave New York City behind, and to go buy that nice place in the countryside, like she was saying.  Joan smiles and says, Thanks, Frank.

Outside, Frank stares at his old place, hearing Dave shout for joy inside.  He comments to himself that the money is from Ma Gnuccis safe, and its the most he could do for them.  I may be damned, as Ma Gnucci said, he thinks to himself, walking off, but Im not taking you good people down with me.

As he walks off, he says to himself, I still got one more piece of business to take care of.  Obviously, he has the copycat killers on his mind.

Pg. 15-17:  We see not that Martin Soap is now the new Police Commissioner.  The old one had to resign in scandal.  Soap pledges to clean up the New York City Police dept.  His partner Molly has sent him a post card: shes on an extended vacation in the Caribbean.   Thinks look pretty good for the usually unlucky Mr. Soapeven if when he sticks his head out the window to his new highrise office, hes crapped on by a pigeon.  I love this city, he thinks to himself.

Pg. 18-22:  Frank is going over what little info he got from Soap and Molly, about the copycat killers.  He notices that in the news, the 3 killers have stopped attacking, like theyve dropped off the face of the Earth.  His last hope in finding them is in this church where all of the victims of the Ax murderer supposedly went to.  He steps inside and immediately hears 3 men arguing.  The Holy complains that theyve been meeting there every night for weeks, and they still havent come to a conclusion on how to run their Vigilante Squad.  They want to make a bold splash, to show the scum in New York City they wont tolerate crime.  The only problem is, they cant agree on what causes crime.  Thats the problem when you have an Elitist Capatalist, a Communist, and an insane man of the cloth on the same team.  So theyve been arguing every night, and their killing sprees have come to a halt.

Then, they spot Frank, whos just entered.  They get up in awe, saying its an honor to meet him.  The Holy proclaims he knew that the Punisher would visit them eventually.  It was only a matter of time.  To which Frank readily agrees.  The Holy asks Frank to lead them, to which Punisher replies, with disbelief, Lead you?  Lead you?

To The Holy he says:  Youre a lunatic.

To Elite, he says, Youre a Nazi.

And to Mr. Payback, he says,  And you:  do you know who Maria Lopez is?

To which Mr. Payback says he doesnt.  Frank tells him that she was an innocent janitor, who was just outside that corporate conference room which Mr. Payback shot full of holes.  One of the bullets struck her and killed her.  Frank tells him shes one of 4 innocent people who died because, you couldnt be bothered to plan properly.

Mr. Payback says that in any war, sacrifices have to be made.  Frank responds, Im glad you think so. And pulls out his machine gun, cocking it.  The three men start pleading for their lives, saying they were inspired by Frank.  That all they wanted was to punish the guilty, and to clean up crime in this city once and for all.

The Holy says, In Heavens name, man!  Isnt that EXACTLY what you want!?!  

To which the Punisher replies, No.  as he starts firing away, killing all of them.

I guess the revealing insight into Franks character here is that he doesnt want to clean up the city.  Hed kinda be happy if there were criminals to kill forever and ever.  

The End.

References:  Joan says, Its been nearly a month, referring to when Frank moved out, (after killing the Russian).

Thats it for now.  Ill have reviews for the 2001 ongoing Punisher series (at least for the first few issues) in the next few weeks.  And let me just say that Garth Ennis, the writer, is one twisted and messed up individual. ;-)

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Re: Chronology Review for Punisher issues 1-12, (the 2000 miniseries).
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 29, 2003 at 20:51:25:
In Reply to: Chronology Review for Punisher issues 1-12, (the 2000 miniseries).
posted by Kevin  on July 29, 2003 at 19:47:15:

As always, thanks for your thorough job, Kevin.  I've saved this as a document I'll refer to when I get to that point in fleshing out the year (actually 14-15 months) between Heroes Return and 9-11.

--Paul

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Re: Chronology Review for Punisher issues 1-12, (the 2000 miniseries).
Posted by Kevin  on July 31, 2003 at 18:23:41:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology Review for Punisher issues 1-12, (the 2000 miniseries).
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 29, 2003 at 20:51:25:

Sounds good.  I'll have review for more recent Punisher issues in the weeks to come. Also, once Hulk #59 and Daredevil #50 come out this month, (thus concluding both series storyarcs) I'll have reviews for those latest issues well. 

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Defenders 140-152 /Iceman 1-4
Posted by David Hall on July 30, 2003 at 01:11:08:

I am looking over the New Defenders issues, and I'd like to propose a couple of corrections.

Iceman 1-4 can not fit between Defenders 147 and 149, because Angel is blind from Defenders 144 through 152, where he is perfectly sighted in Iceman 4.

I propose that Iceman 1-4 occurs between Defenders 141 and 142.

Also Defenders 148 does not occur between 147 and 149.

It was a 'filler issue' set in the "Not Too Distant Past" guest starring Patsy and Daimon Hellstrom.  The only series regulars were Beast and Gargoyle.

It seems quite ridiculous that in the middle of the 'Cloud's origin' arc that Beast and Gargoyle would leave New York, and go visit San Francisco.  

I propose that Defenders 148 fits between Defenders 141 and 142 as well.

My proposed chronology for the defenders is thus:
Def 140
Def 141
Def 148 
Ice 1-4
Def 142-152

David

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Re: Defenders 140-152 /Iceman 1-4
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 30, 2003 at 20:17:47:
In Reply to: Defenders 140-152 /Iceman 1-4
posted by David Hall on July 30, 2003 at 01:11:08:

I came up with the following when I was reviewing Defenders chronology years ago...

I have ICE 1-4 before DEF 140.  ICE 1 shows Bobby's father's retirment party, which was noted in DEF 130 as scheduled to occur "next month."  The party had to have been postponed for some reason, but I did try to get ICE 1-4 to occur as early as feasible.

I have DEF 148 during the break between DEF 145 and 146, to get it as close to its publication order as possible.

Do these placements make sense?

--Paul

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Re: Defenders 140-152 /Iceman 1-4
Posted by David Hall on July 30, 2003 at 20:44:28:
In Reply to: Re: Defenders 140-152 /Iceman 1-4
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 30, 2003 at 20:17:47:

Iceman 1-4 could go right before Def #140, or between 140 and 141 for that matter.  As there is a reason to move it forward, I suppose right before #140 is a good place.

DEF 148 could go between 145 and 146, but it still seems a little out of character for Beast to leave Warren's place to go on a light hearted romp, right after Warren's been blinded, and so much "heavy" stuff has been happening. (better than putting it between 147 and 149 though, at least Hank is on the right coast.)

Perhaps:
Iceman 1-4
Def 140
Def 141
def 148
def 142-152

Dave

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Wolv/Nick Fury: Scorpio Connection
Posted by David Hall on July 30, 2003 at 20:25:03:

The Wolverine/Nick Fury Scorpio Connection GN cannot fit in Dazzler's chronolgy between Beauty & Beast 4 and Dazzler 35, as it is listed in the MCP.  

Instead it happens between panels of the Flashback in Dazzler #38, where Dazzler is (in her blue outfit) trained to fight by Wolverine and the other X-Men.  This is the only time where she could have been in that costume, with that team of X-Men to appear in the Wolv/NF GN

However that being said, the flashback in Dazz #38 happens sometime before Dazz #38.  The end of the fb says " With that she left Westchester to eventually resume her life on the West Coast."

It can't happen before Dazzler #35, as she calls Ororo to tell her about the events of Dazzler the movie, something she wouldn't have to do if she'd already talked with (any of) the x-men.

Dazz #36 and #37 are one shot issues w/o much tie to chronology, so the fb could come either right before those, or right before Dazz #38.

In Dazz #36, Alison shows no real fighting skills, something which she might do if she'd just been trained by the X-Men.

In #37 she does get to fight a bit, so I think the fb might come before this issue, though it could come in between #37 and #38.

My proposal:

Dazzler
DAZZ 34
M/GN 12
B&B 1
B&B 2
B&B 3
B&B 4
DAZZ 35
DAZZ 36
DAZZ 38 - FB   - new entry
W/NF  - new entry
DAZZ 38 - FB  - new entry
DAZZ 37
DAZZ 38
NM 29
SWII 1

Dave

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Daredevil: Man Without Fear/Yellow
Posted by Harrison on July 31, 2003 at 12:58:52:

What's the deal with Man Without Fear not being canon anymore?  I saw that note in the key, which referred me to Daredevil:Yellow.  I never read Yellow.  What's going on here?

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Re: Daredevil: Man Without Fear/Yellow
Posted by ShadZ on July 31, 2003 at 16:20:21:
In Reply to: Daredevil: Man Without Fear/Yellow
posted by Harrison on July 31, 2003 at 12:58:52:

Daredevil: Man Without Fear has never been cannon.  It was based on an Daredevil movie script that Frank Miller had written.  When that movie went unmade, Miller changed it to a comic script without doing any further continunity research.

The main reason it is not cannon is because it rearranges many of the events that happened before Matt became Daredevil -- and send Matt to an entirely different law school.

Some individual scenes in Daredevil: Man Without Fear have been incorporated into continunity (most notoriously, the scene where he accidently knocks a prostitute out a window during one of his earliest cases).  But for the most part, the Daredevil comic hasn't adapted any of the CHANGES made in Daredevil: Man Without Fear, which means its non-canon.

The fact that Marvel editors consider Daredevil: Man Without Fear non-canon has been confirmed by Tom Brevoot.

ShadZ
