SATAN...SATANNISH...SAM SAWYER
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 01, 2003 at 15:58:48:

new entries marked **

SATAN/"MARDU KURIOS"
M/SPT 8
**M/SPT 9
M/SPT 11
..  ..  ..  ..  ..
DRSTR2 16
**SOS 1
GR2 19
**SOS 3  (I placed SOS 1 and SOS 3 on opposite sides of  GR2 19 as that how they are placed in HELLSTORMs chronology. I do not have SSM&CB 238 so cannot tell how they relate to that issue.
**SOS 8
SSM&CB 238/2

SATANNISH
(The following 5 manifestations may or may be the same Satannish as those listed in the MCP. They are visually different. They all refer to themselves or are otherwise named as Satannish. As demons are renown for changing their physical appearance I consider them the same entity. But if more versed occultists believe otherwise then at least this Satannish deserves his own entry  All 5 entries would precede DRSTR2 6, but I do not know where TOWER OF SHADOWS 5 fits in.)
**DRSTR 175
**GSDEF 2
**DEF 100
**M/TU 126
**H2 359  ???  (the entity in question here does refer to itself as SATANNISH but the  behaviour (contractual effort to win a soul) is more in keeping with the behaviour of  the MU SATAN, who has also been known to be deceptive in his identity).
TOWER OF SHADOWS 5-BTS
DRSTR3 6

SAWYER, GENERAL SAMUEL
CA 273
**CA 274

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering!

#107

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Call of Duty chronology
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 01, 2003 at 20:53:48:

Can anyone help me out in finalizing a chronology for the three Call of Duty miniseries?  I'm missing The Brotherhood #5 and #6 and The Precinct #4 (and part of #1; I have the preview portion only), and I don't have The Call follow-up series.  I realize that these titles intertwined heavily, so I've tried to break scenes down into page and panel ranges, as follows.  If someone can elaborate and fill this out, breaking it down further as necessary, I'd really appreciate it.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #1 (1-9p6)
One day.  Police sergeant Frank Gunzer enters a hostage situation in which a man kills his daughter and shoots Gunzers partner Sammy before being killed by backup cops.  Gunz then sees a blond girl who speaks an ominous message of death before disappearing.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #1 (1-19)
The same night as COD:P 1 (1-9).  While fighting a fire, fireman James MacDonald sees the blond girl, who gives the same ominous message of death before mysteriously vanishing again.  The injured MacDonald is taken from the scene in an ambulance with EMT Jennifer Montez, but the ambulance encounters a car wreck.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #1 (20-21p3) ~ CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #1 (9p7-10)
The same night as COD:B 1 (1-19).  Montez encounters the blond girl and her disappearing act at the car wreck.  Gunz shows up and they start to compare notes with MacDonald.  This segment is noted in COD:W 1 as having occurred the other day.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #1 (21p4-27p2)
The same night as COD:B 1 (20-21).  At the hospital, Montez, MacDonald, and Gunz compare notes about the blond girl.  9-11" is referenced in a scene with MacDonald and fellow firefighter Mick.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #1 (27p3-29)
The day after COD:B 1 (21-27).  MacDonald is placed off duty for seven days and he watches his brothers go out on a call.  Green trees in New York.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #1 (30-36)
One day, seven days (a week) after COD:B 1 (27-29).  MacDonald and company are called to a fire in a crack house.  Green grass and trees in New York.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #2
The same day as COD:B 1 (30-36).  Firemen Meat and Berelli encounter the blond girl in the burning crack house.  Montez arrives on the scene and finds out about the sighting.  Fireman Newmeier is badly burned.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #1 ()
One day, long enough after COD:P 1 (1-9) for Sammy to recover from his gunshot wound.  Gunz brother Joey, a priest, tells him that hes seen the blond girl.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #2 (1-6)
One rainy morning.  Gunz has a nightmare and goes out, only to see the blond girl, who leads him to a cemetery, where he is found by Sammy.  Presumably later that morning, Gunz sees a psychiatrist about the cemetery and the girl.  Full moon.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #2 (7)
Probably the day after COD:P 2 (1-6).  Gunz captain gives him two weeks leave.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #2 (8-22)
One day.  While on leave, Gunz is taken by Matty and Joey to Big Bear Recreational Park, where we see green grass and trees.  At a carnival there, one of dealer Checkers Freemans goons tries to kill Gunz and Joey nails the would-be assassin.  Joey tells Matty that hes had a thing for her and that hes quitting the priesthood.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #3 (1-4)
Early one morning.  Matty has a dream about Joey.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #3 (5-8)
The same day as COD:P 3 (1-4).  Its almost five and raining in Brooklyn when Gunz fights a brute in a bar and calls Matty to ask her to check on Joey.  Gunz promotion is scheduled for next week.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #1 (1-17p2)
The same day as COD:P 3 (5-8).  COD:P 1 (9-10) is referred to as having occurred the other day.  Montez and partner Randy arrive on the scene of a shooting.  Gunz is on the scene too, and he tells Montez that Joey saw the blond girl a couple days ago.  The blond girl appears again, says her name is Savannah, warns about a coming disaster at the Knox Building, and disappears.  The EMTs take a victim to the hospital.  Spidey makes a cameo.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #3 (1-2)
The same day as COD:W 1 (1-17).  Savannah shows up in Newmeiers hospital room.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #3 (9p2-17)
The same day as COD:W 3-FB.  It is a year after 9-11.  Its after six, and MacDonald and crew take the truck out to get groceries and they meet a living Savannah and her family.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #3 (9-21p4)
The same day as COD:B 3 (9-17).  Its six-thirty.  Matty discovers that Joey retired from the church yesterday and she goes to Joeys place, only to discover the depth of his love for her.  Gunz is shot when he and Sammy infiltrate Checkers place to tell him to back off.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #1 (17p3-18)
The same day as COD:P 3 (9-21).  Montez and Randy meet up with Said, another ambulance driver.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #1 (19p1) ~ CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #3 (18p1)
The same day as COD:W 1 (17-18).  Saids ambulance explodes.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #3 (18p2-18p7)
The same day as COD:B 3 (18p1).  MacDonald and crew respond to the explosion and Savannah waves goodbye.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #1 (19p2-20p2)
The same day as COD:W 1 (18p2-18p7).  Montez and Randy rush to help Said.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #1 (20p3-20p4) ~ CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #3 (19p1-19p2)
The same day as COD:W 1 (19-20).  Montez and Randy check Said and see whats happened.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #1 (21)
The same day as COD:W 1 (20p3-20p4).  Montez and Randy face an animated, burning corpse.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #2 (1-3p1)
The same day as COD:W 1 (21).  The burning corpse poses a threat.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #3 (19p3-20)
The same day as COD:W 2 (1-3).   MacDonald and crew arrive at the scene of the burning corpse.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #2 (3p2-21)
The same day as COD:B 3 (19-20).  The burning corpse kills Randy and makes off with the ambulance, and MacDonald and Mick jump on board to stop him.  After making the ambulance crash, the firemen see the burning man heading to the Knox Building, where Savannah, who appears to Montez, says MacDonald will die today, Friday, August 12.  The day and date combination doesnt make sense, given that this story is supposed to occur a year after 9-11, which occurred on a Tuesday; so either the day or date can be considered a correct reference, but not both.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #3  FB
The same day as COD:W 2 (3-21).  Two hours before COD:W 3, Randys animated corpse leaves the hospital morgue.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #4 (1-5p4)
The same night as COD:W 3-FB.  Montez calls MacDonald and tells him not to go to the Knox Building, but the burning corpse heads there.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #3 (21p5-22)
The same night as COD:B 4 (1-5).  Despite his injury, Gunz checks on the Knox Building with Sammy and encounters the burning corpse.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #4 (1-x)
The same night as COD:P 3 (21-22).

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #4 (5p5-23)
The same night as COD:P 4 (1-x).  MacDonald approaches the Knox Building, only to see the burning man run out the front door, pursued by Gunz, and get nailed by a truck.  Savannah appears to Montez and the firemen racing for the Knox Building, and she melds her ghostly form with Montez to give her a frightening vision of the future.  Gunz heads up to the sixteenth floor of the Knox Building, and Montez catches up to MacDonald in front of the building, only to witness a man combust.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #5
The same night as COD:B 4 (5-23).

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #4
The same night as COD:B 5.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #3
The same night as COD:P 4.  Zombie Randy commandeers the crashed ambulance and drives it into the Knox Building, where MacDonald brings him down.  Fire breaks out on the upper floors (presumably because of Gunz and the burning corpse in COD:P 4), then the burning corpse falls out of the building.  MacDonald goes up to deal with the fire, despite the warnings of Montez, who then calls her husband to tell him she loves him before going up after MacDonald.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #4
The same night as COD:W 3.  Montez husband hires a helicopter pilot to fly him to the Knox Building, where Montez is saved from a zombie attack by a woman with whom she heads to the roof, where a bunch of biotoxin canisters pose a grave threat.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #6
The same night as COD:W 4.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #5
The same night as COD:B 6.  Matty and Joey arrive at the Knox Building and go in after Gunz.  Gunz and Joey end up saving Matty and escape from the building.  Gunz leaves the scene with Maddy in an ambulance.  Gunz notes that hes still Sergeant until Friday, an indication that the reference to it being August 12" today in COD:W 2 (3-21) is probably correct, while the Friday is not.

THE CALL #1

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new comics i picked up
Posted by dan mckenzie on August 02, 2003 at 00:04:41:

i recently picked up some comics today and i just had some questions about a few of them i was hoping that somebody could fill me in on.

1 - i picked up UX342 & UX343 and both include magneto/ joseph.  but neither is listed in his cronology.  is this because he is simply going by joseph and not magneto or what?

2 - i also got GENX18 and jubilee, no doubt about it, appears all through the book, yet this one also isn't listed.

3 - is x-men:true friends canon at all? 

if anybody could help me, i'd appreciate it.

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Re: new comics i picked up
Posted by Jeph! on August 02, 2003 at 11:11:29:
In Reply to: new comics i picked up
posted by dan mckenzie on August 02, 2003 at 00:04:41:

> 1 - i picked up UX342 & UX343 and both include magneto/ joseph.  but neither is listed in his cronology.  is this because he is simply going by joseph and not magneto or what?

Joseph was eventually revealed to be a clone of Magneto, not Magneto himself, so it wouldn't be in his chronology at all.  Look under "Joseph".

> 2 - i also got GENX18 and jubilee, no doubt about it, appears all through the book, yet this one also isn't listed.

This issue falls into the MCP's second Gap (as do UX #342-343, by the way).  Check the FAQ and Closing the Gap page for more info on the Gaps...

> 3 - is x-men:true friends canon at all? 

Yes.

-Jeph!

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D'Angelo
Posted by Mithrandir on August 02, 2003 at 11:14:02:

As I don't have any Deadly Hands of Kung Fu, can someone confirm or deny for me if the Lt. D'Angelo who appears in Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man #20 is the same guy?

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Adventures of the X-Men IS canon-it takes place in the Pre-Big Bang universe of Galen of Taa....the future Galactus
Posted by John McDonagh on August 02, 2003 at 20:57:25:

Adventures of the X-Men#12 reveals that Adventures of the X-Men was canonical. It reveals that the destruction of Galen of Taa's universe was caused by counterparts of the Dweller in Darkness and D'Spayre. Jean Grey became Phoenix, the Living Tribunal called upon the Spectre and the Brothers from the DC vs. Marvel mini-series (I kid you not) and the Phoenix approached Galen of Taa and told him how he would become Galactus. 

Galen of Taa's universe ended, and a new universe began-the current universe. Eventually, the current universe produced its own X-Men.  

So Adventures of the X-Men is in-continuity, but just set in the pre-Big Bang universe. I guess the only character we should add appearances for it from would be Galactus.

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What?
Posted by Jeph! on August 03, 2003 at 00:18:32:
In Reply to: Adventures of the X-Men IS canon-it takes place in the Pre-Big Bang universe of Galen of Taa....the future Galactus
posted by John McDonagh on August 02, 2003 at 20:57:25:

The series that retold the cartoons in comic format?

Can you give a little more detail about this?

-Jeph!

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Re: What?
Posted by DCW3 on August 03, 2003 at 16:42:38:
In Reply to: What?
posted by Jeph! on August 03, 2003 at 00:18:32:

> The series that retold the cartoons in comic format?

Yep.

> Can you give a little more detail about this?

Snood of the Appendix has a somewhat more detailed account of the issue at http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/brothers.htm :

"In--of all places--The Adventures of the X-Men#12, the hierarchy of the Brothers (as higher than the Living Tribunal) is disputed. This is a somewhat interesting series, as I had initially just assumed it to be adaptations of the X-Men cartoon. I watched the first season or two, but didn't continue to follow it, so I can't confirm or deny this as being the case. However/Anyway, in this issue, the demons D'Spayre and the Dweller-in-Darkness instigate the destruction of the M'Kraan Crystal, which in turn destroys all reality. Phoenix harnesses all of the positive emotions of everyone in the universe and uses this energy to have the sentience of the universe join with Galan of Taa and allow him to survive the destruction of the universe, and to ultimately become Galactus in that Universe. So, the implication is that the events of that series (and possibly of the cartoon) took place in the universe before the current one."

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Galactus and "the prior universe"
Posted by Kevin  on August 04, 2003 at 15:06:21:
In Reply to: Re: What?
posted by DCW3 on August 03, 2003 at 16:42:38:

That strikes me as different from what I've heard about the "prior universe" which Galactus came from, before the current Marvel Universe existed.  The way that makes it sound, it almost sounds like the prior universe was an exact duplicate of the current universe, (sorta like the Multiple DC universes in the Crisis on Infinite Earths miniseries).  I've never heard that referenced anywhere else...

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Re: Galactus and "the prior universe"
Posted by Jeph! on August 04, 2003 at 17:32:05:
In Reply to: Galactus and "the prior universe"
posted by Kevin  on August 04, 2003 at 15:06:21:

> That strikes me as different from what I've heard about the "prior universe" which Galactus came from, before the current Marvel Universe existed.

What DO we know about the universe Galactus came from? Anything?

> it almost sounds like the prior universe was an exact duplicate of the current universe

Yeah -- and honestly, how likely is that?  That the universe prior to ours was identical down to costumes and codenames of individual mortals?  Please.

I mean, the evidence is there -- it seems to be what Macchio intended -- but how likely is it that  it's TRUE?  That it's CANON?  That the universe seen on the final page of "Adv.s of the X-Men" #12 was OUR Marvel Universe, and not some similar alternate universe?

I still have issues with this scenario:

1) the "Brothers" are supposed to be MORE powerful than the Tribunal, not LESS, according to the DC vs. Marvel series.

2) What ARE the odds that the universe before the MU was 98% identical to it?  Damned unlikely, I'd say.

Nonetheless, I'll stick this book on my list of issues to track down and give a closer read...

-Jeph!

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Re: Galactus and "the prior universe"
Posted by Kevin  on August 04, 2003 at 18:26:21:
In Reply to: Re: Galactus and "the prior universe"
posted by Jeph! on August 04, 2003 at 17:32:05:

> > That strikes me as different from what I've heard about the "prior universe" which Galactus came from, before the current Marvel Universe existed.

> What DO we know about the universe Galactus came from?  Anything?

I believe there was only 1 story set in this prior universe, which tells of the old universe's end.  I forget what issue the story was in, (probably a John Bryne FF issue) but the basic gist of it was Galactus was a scientist (Galen) from the planet Taa, who detected that the universe was ending or something, and so his planet sent him in a spaceship to investigate, and he was sucked into some sort of spacial anamoly, just as the universe ended.  Thus, he was born in the new universe as Galactus.

I'm sure someone else can tell me where that story is from.  I'm unaware of any other stories that were set in the prior universe.  This is certainly the first time I've heard that a comic remotely based on a cartoon was set in the "prior universe". :-)

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Re: Galactus and "the prior universe"
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 04, 2003 at 21:28:13:
In Reply to: Re: Galactus and "the prior universe"
posted by Kevin  on August 04, 2003 at 18:26:21:

May 1983   Super-Villain Classics #1 tells Galactus's origin in detail. Pages 1 to 11 occur in the previous universe.

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oops... lost a line
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 04, 2003 at 23:46:25:
In Reply to: Re: Galactus and "the prior universe"
posted by Arthur Stein on August 04, 2003 at 21:28:13:

Originally presented in T 169.

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Adventures of the X-Men featured original material that took place in the pre-Big Bang universe, which it turns out was very similar to the current universe; it was not just an adaption of the cartoon show
Posted by John McDonagh on August 03, 2003 at 16:42:54:
In Reply to: What?
posted by Jeph! on August 03, 2003 at 00:18:32:

Adventures of the X-Men was not an adaptation of the cartoon show. Rather, it featured original material. It was drawn in a different style than the usual comics.

In Adventures of the X-Men#11, the X-Men encountered D'Spayre and the Dweller in Darkness. In Adventures of the X-Men#12, the Dweller in Darkness caused the destruction of the M'Kraan crystal. Jean Grey was forced to once again become Phoenxi to try to prevent the M'Kraan crystal from destroying the world. Phoenix attempted to stop it, but could not.

Meanwhile, Galen of Taa was exploring the universe, seeing how the destruction of the M'Kraan crystal was causing it to collapse.

The Dweller in Darkness looked on in glee, for the massive fear that would result from the end of the universe would make him omnipotent.

The Living Tribunal observed all this, and in his hand he held the Brothers (from the DC vs. Marvel mini-series). The Living Tribunal held them in his palm as he waited, for he had to confer with the Spectre (from the DC worlds, his "hooded spectral ally".

The Phoenix then realized that the universe would end, but there would be a new universe if she united all the minds of the universe (as well as the mind of Arkon). The Phoenix told them not to feel fear when the universe ended, but to remember that a new universe would emerge.

Nobody in the universe felt fear when the end came, cheating the Dweller in Darkness. Meanwhile, Galen of Taa continued his trip to the center of the collapsing universe. The Phoenix contacted him.

"Hear me, Last Son of Taa--I am the sentience of the universe--Like yourself I am dying but we need not die without heir". The Phoenix told Galen that in this new universe, a being called Galactus would emerge.

Then the Living Tribunal allowed the Brothers (from the DC Vs. Marvel mini-series) to leave his hand, and a new universe was created-the current universe, which as happened with Galen of Taa's universe, had its own X-Men. The Watcher (who narrates this issue) states "What had gone before returns, in newer more wondrous manner".

Bet nobody saw this coming.

Some other original material in Adventures of the X-Men:

And even Marvel's most popular superheroes by far, the uncanny X-Men, have met up with the Cthulhu Mythos! THE ADVENTURES OF THE X-MEN # 4 featured a tale called "When The Dweller Awakes," in which Cyclops, longtime leader of the team, joins forces with Erich Zann, and with the aid of the R'lyeh Text they banish the demonic hordes knows the N'Garai -- who are themselves bent on freeing a montrous tentacled Old One slumbering beneath the city of New Salem. The giant tentacle which emerges from the earth's depths is truly awe-inspiring!

> The series that retold the cartoons in comic format?

> Can you give a little more detail about this?

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Re: Adventures of the X-Men featured original material that took place in the pre-Big Bang universe, which it turns out was very similar to the current universe; it was not just an adaption of the cartoon show
Posted by DCW3 on August 03, 2003 at 23:12:23:
In Reply to: Adventures of the X-Men featured original material that took place in the pre-Big Bang universe, which it turns out was very similar to the current universe; it was not just an adaption of the cartoon show 
posted by John McDonagh on August 03, 2003 at 16:42:54:

> Adventures of the X-Men was not an adaptation of the cartoon show. Rather, it featured original material. It was drawn in a different style than the usual comics. 

I guess I was mistaken. Did the series take place in the same continuity as the cartoon (and the earlier "X-Men Adventures" series?)

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Adventures of the X-Men featured original material, not cartoon adapt
Posted by John McDonagh on August 03, 2003 at 18:42:03:

Adventures of the X-Men actually featured original material. It was similar to Batman Adventures/TMNT Adventures/etc. The stories were influenced by the cartoon, but actually were original.

Issue#11-12 showed that Adventures of the X-Men took place in the universe that existed before the Big Bang-the universe of Galen of Taa. This universe had its own X-Men.

In the last issue, the Dweller in Darkness causes the destruction of the universe by cracking the M'Krann crystal. We see Galen of Taa discover this and head out to lead his crew on one last trip of glory.

As this goes on, the Living Tribunal summons the Brothers from the DC Vs. Marvel series and consults with the Spectre. (I kid you not.) A new universe will emerge, at which point the Living Tribunal will release the Brothers.

Meanwhile, Jean Grey becomes Phoenix and links all life forms in the universe (and Arkon). She tells them not to feel fear, as the Dweller in Darkness feeds on fear. She soothes them by telling them that a new universe will emerge after this one dies.  

The result is that nobody feels fear as the universe ends. The Phoenix then contacts Galen of Taa, and informs him that he will become Galactus in the New Universe.

The Living Tribunal releases the Brothers from the DC Vs. Marvel mini-series and a new universe is formed. This new universe greatly resembles the old universe, in that it has its own X-Men. This is the current universe, the Earth-616 universe. 

One day, Charles Xavier informs his students that one Miss Jean Grey will be joining them.........

The Watcher narrates this issue and says "What Had Gone Before returns in a newer, more wondrous manner!". 

So, there you have it, the full origin of Galactus. We finally found out what his universe was like. 

			*	*	*

Who WROTE this series?
Posted by Jeph! on August 04, 2003 at 01:29:56:
In Reply to: Adventures of the X-Men featured original material, not cartoon adapt
posted by John McDonagh on August 03, 2003 at 18:42:03:

And, as a follow-up question, WTF?

Some things don't jibe, in my mind -- one, aren't the "Brothers" supposed to be MORE powerful than the Living Tribunal?  How could the Tribunal hold them in his hand?

Two, if this story took place billions of years ago, before our Big Bang, then could the Spectre even be AROUND to be consulted with?  Is he that old?  (I know next to nothing about DC's Spectre, sorry.)

(Additionally, as one Brother represents the Marvel multiverse, wouldn't he have been destroyed and reborn in this act?  And if so, what would happen to the other brother (representing the DC multiverse)?  Would he too be destroyed/reborn with his brother?  If so, does the Spectre we see belong to the "old"/"prior" DC universe?  If not, is the DC Brother that much older than the Marvel brother?  Did we SEE anything happen to the brothers on-panel?)

Three, how on earth would the Watcher have been able to watch this?

I mean, I'm all for it, I guess, but it seems really really weird.  Was this the writer's INTENT, to show us the "origin" of the 616 Marvel Universe?

Or, for those that know more about Galactus: is a "Galactus" created EVERY time the universe ends/is reborn?  If the 616 universe were to end tomorrow, would a "Galactus" creature rise from our ashes to live on in the next universe?

In other words, is it possible that the "Advs. of the X-Men" universe is PARALLEL/contiguous to the "real" Marvel Universe, and its ending -- and the creation of "Galactus" to live on in the next -- was simply the "cartoon" version of what WOULD happen if the REAL Marvel Universe were to end?

I'm gonna need to see this issue for myself.  Damned bizarre.

-Jeph!

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Re: Who WROTE this series?
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 04, 2003 at 05:23:41:
In Reply to: Who WROTE this series?
posted by Jeph! on August 04, 2003 at 01:29:56:

According to the Unofficial Handbook of Marvel Comics Creators, ADVENTURES OF THE X-MEN was written by Ralph Macchio.

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Pre-Big Bang universe question answered, with extensive citations from Adventures of the X-Men#12, the Last Galactus Story, and Thanos Quest#2
Posted by John McDonagh on August 04, 2003 at 08:25:03:
In Reply to: Who WROTE this series?
posted by Jeph! on August 04, 2003 at 01:29:56:

> And, as a follow-up question, WTF?

Many people's sentiments exactly.

> Two, if this story took place billions of years ago, before our Big Bang, then could the Spectre even be AROUND to be consulted with?  Is he that old?  (I know next to nothing about DC's Spectre, sorry.)

The Spectre is a servant of the Abrahamic god, aka Yahweh or the Presence; the Abrahamic god is much older in the DCU than he is in the Marvel Universe (in the Marvel Universe he did not exist until after the Hyborian Age). 

>If so, does the Spectre we see belong to the "old"/"prior" DC universe?  

We don't actually see the Spectre, rather a narration panel says the Living Tribunal's affairs include "First there must be a transdimensional consultation with his hooded, spectral ally". 

I guess you could construe this as the Spectre of the Pre-Crisis DC universe if you wanted. 

We see the Living Tribunal on one page and a panel says "Energy that could vaporize galaxies flares on his massive hand as two figures play out the endless conflict of existence.....two incalculably powerful siblings whom the tribunal has a place for in his great scheme of things. But not just yet". We seen see the Brothers fighting each other in the Living Tribunal's palm.

We next see the Tribunal sitting on a throne with his hand closed. We don't see it open, but narrations say "His [The Tribunal's] motives are unfathomable to all others--even eternity itself, for none possess his omniscient perspective. Alpha and Omega revolve on the wheel of destiny....a wheel spun by his mighty hand....and hand soon opening to allow two brothers to assume their predestined roles as architects of new realities. And only this ageless judge of all things will know why."

The narration then relates how Galen of Taa's spaceship bursts into a universe aborning. Life evolves again on this universe, and in the last panel, we see a familiar sight-Professor Xavier summoning his first team of X-Men

"The Angel reporting, sir".
"Cyclops present and accounted for, sir."
"Iceman right on schedule, sir!"
Xavier: "You may be interested to learn that at this very moment I sense a taxi approaching our main gate. Within that vehicle is a new pupil......a most attrative young lady. Miss Jean Grey".

Sound familiar? This is the Earth-616 version of the X-Men on the last page. (As far as I can tell, the Pre-Big Bang universe version of the X-Men seen in the earlier issues of Adventures of the X-Men had no Iceman.)

> Three, how on earth would the Watcher have been able to watch this?

There is precedent of characters viewing events that took place before the present universe; in Thanos Quest#2, Thanos mentions that he saw in Death's scrying pool the entity whose death caused the creation of the Infinity Gems. This took place long before the creation of the present universe. (And would probably have to take place before the creation of the Pre-Big Bang/Adventures of the X-Men universe, too.)

> Or, for those that know more about Galactus: is a "Galactus" created EVERY time the universe ends/is reborn?  If the 616 universe were to end tomorrow, would a "Galactus" creature rise from our ashes to live on in the next universe?

Had John Byrne finished his "The Last Galactus Story" serial in EPIC ILLUSTRATED, we would have seen Frankie Raye/Nova become the next universe's Galactus-equivalent, per an interview in Wizard#28.

(One should also consider the Time Keepers, who per What If II#39, will be created during the heat death of the current universe.)

> In other words, is it possible that the "Advs. of the X-Men" universe is PARALLEL/contiguous to the "real" Marvel Universe, and its ending -- and the creation of "Galactus" to live on in the next -- was simply the "cartoon" version of what WOULD happen if the REAL Marvel Universe were to end?

The dialogue at the end of the issue, which takes place in the universe that results after the destruction of Galen of Taa's universe, is an exact match for the first scene from X-Men I#1. Not only that, but the presence of Iceman in that scene indicates that it is the Earth-616 as opposed to the previous, "cartoon" universe....since as far as I know, no episode of the cartoon (or the comics adapted from it) ever referenced Iceman as existing in their continuity.  

			*	*	*

Re: Pre-Big Bang universe question answered, with extensive citations from Adventures of the X-Men#12, the Last Galactus Story, and Thanos Quest#2
Posted by DCW3 on August 04, 2003 at 13:26:36:
In Reply to: Pre-Big Bang universe question answered, with extensive citations from Adventures of the X-Men#12, the Last Galactus Story, and Thanos Quest#2
posted by John McDonagh on August 04, 2003 at 08:25:03:

> The dialogue at the end of the issue, which takes place in the universe that results after the destruction of Galen of Taa's universe, is an exact match for the first scene from X-Men I#1. Not only that, but the presence of Iceman in that scene indicates that it is the Earth-616 as opposed to the previous, "cartoon" universe....since as far as I know, no episode of the cartoon (or the comics adapted from it) ever referenced Iceman as existing in their continuity.  

For what it's worth, there was an episode of the cartoon series that featured Iceman. As I recall, he was a failed student of Xavier's who joined up with a version of the government X-Factor team. I don't know if this episode was ever adapted for the comics, though.

			*	*	*

I thought that Adventures of the X-Men was a prequel to
Posted by quiddie on August 06, 2003 at 00:18:39:
In Reply to: Pre-Big Bang universe question answered, with extensive citations from Adventures of the X-Men#12, the Last Galactus Story, and Thanos Quest#2
posted by John McDonagh on August 04, 2003 at 08:25:03:

the 99 cent-series Professor X and the X-Men?

Has the same opening scene IIRC :)

quiddie :)

			*	*	*

SCARLET SPIDER...SCARLET WITCH...MICHELE SCICLUNA
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 05, 2003 at 10:12:51:

new entries marked **

SCARLET SPIDER/BEN REILLY
PPTSS 226
ASMSS 1/3
**S-MSS 1/3
**VSS 1/3
PPTSSSS 1/3
WOSMSS 1/3
..  ..  ..  ..  ..
ASMU 10
**S-MSS 1
VSS 1
PPTSSSS 1
WOSMSS 1
WOSM 129

SCARLET WITCH
AWC 54
**CA 368
A 313
..  ..  ..  ..  ..
IW 4
** IW 5   Pg 33/2
DRSTR3 46

SCICLUNA, MICHELE
XCAL 86
**XCAL 87
**GENX 8
XCAL 99

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering!

#108

			*	*	*

What current series help do you need for calendar?
Posted by Dan Spears on August 06, 2003 at 00:02:48:

Hi,

In the interest of helping with the calendar you're trying to maintain/produce listing the chronology of current MU stories, I'd like to volunteer to contribute an ongoing analysis of one or two titles which no one else who contributes to the calendar is getting at this time.  Would someone please post a current list of titles which might fall into this category, and I'll let you know what I'll take responsibility for (and what I don't choose, maybe someone else might?).

Thanks for doing such a great job!

Dan

			*	*	*

Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 06, 2003 at 07:11:34:
In Reply to: What current series help do you need for calendar?
posted by Dan Spears on August 06, 2003 at 00:02:48:

Hey, Dan.  Thanks for volunteering.  I don't have an encyclopedic list of titles currently being published, but let's see what we have...

I collect the following:
Avengers
Captain America
Thor
Iron Man
Fantastic Four
Human Torch
Captain Marvel
Amazing Spider-Man
Spectacular Spider-Man
Spider-Man/Wolverine
New X-Men
Uncanny X-Men
X-Treme X-Men
X-Statix
X-Men Unlimited
Weapon X

IIRC, others are working the following:
Hulk  (Kevin)
Daredevil  (Kevin)
Punisher (Kevin)
Alias (Jeph)
Wolverine  (Jeph)

Antonio may be covering various Spidey limited series that come along.

Among the canon titles I can remember that are not covered are:
The Crew
Elektra
Marville
Silver Surfer
Thor: Vikings
The current Thing mini-series

And if someone has issues 78 on of Thunderbolts, that would be great to add.

If anyone can think of other regular or limited series that should be covered, or if I've forgotten a title that someone is covering, please let us know.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
Posted by Jeph! on August 06, 2003 at 13:10:57:
In Reply to: Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 06, 2003 at 07:11:34:

> IIRC, others are working the following:
> Alias (Jeph)
> Wolverine  (Jeph)

Nope -- Jeph isn't collecting Alias.  Wolverine, though, yes indeed.

> Among the canon titles I can remember that are not covered are:
> Marville

Marville's canon now?  Oh surely not.  What makes you think it's canon?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
Posted by Kevin  on August 06, 2003 at 15:49:56:
In Reply to: Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
posted by Jeph! on August 06, 2003 at 13:10:57:

Here guys, this link will help you see what current titles are being published, (now and in October to be more precise):

http://comics.toonzone.net/solicitations/2003-10/marvel.php

> > IIRC, others are working the following:
> > Alias (Jeph)
> > Wolverine  (Jeph)

> Nope -- Jeph isn't collecting Alias.  Wolverine, though, yes indeed.

I believe you told me Sean was handling Alias, Paul? 

Of course, I haven't seen our good man Sean lately...

			*	*	*

Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 06, 2003 at 15:57:41:
In Reply to: Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 06, 2003 at 07:11:34:

> Among the canon titles I can remember that are not covered are:
> The Crew
> Elektra

I can handle both of those for you.

> Marville

That's not canon.

> Silver Surfer
> Thor: Vikings

I can deal with that.

> The current Thing mini-series

Presumptively not canon, since it's under the Startling Stories banner, and the premise of that banner is that the stories are out of continuity.

I couldn't say WHY it isn't continuity, but Marvel have labelled it as out-of-canon, and it's their universe.

			*	*	*

Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 06, 2003 at 21:27:27:
In Reply to: Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
posted by Paul O'Brien on August 06, 2003 at 15:57:41:

> > Among the canon titles I can remember that are not covered are:
> > The Crew
> > Elektra

> I can handle both of those for you.

That would be great, Paul.

> > Marville

> That's not canon.

Oh, okay.  I'm just going by what covers I see on the rack.  Can't say I've really cracked this title open.

> > Silver Surfer
> > Thor: Vikings

> I can deal with that.

Cool.  Thanks again.

> > The current Thing mini-series

> Presumptively not canon, since it's under the Startling Stories banner, and the premise of that banner is that the stories are out of continuity.

> I couldn't say WHY it isn't continuity, but Marvel have labelled it as out-of-canon, and it's their universe.

Gotcha.  (See above.)

As for Alias, Jeph is right.  I think Sean was covering that one, although I do have this week's issue and last month's.  (I haven't read the new one yet, but something tells me I may be posting something after I do.)

Other titles which I presume are canon and need coverage:
Inhumans
Sentinel

Thanks to everyone helping out!  I'm hoping to share a revised post-9/11 calendar sometime soon; the major task is the restructuring of Spidey titles, which our colleague Antonio is working on.  Now back to work on the calendar extension back to Heroes Return.  

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
Posted by garbonzo on August 07, 2003 at 00:21:33:
In Reply to: Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 06, 2003 at 21:27:27:

I can take Sentinal for you, if it is still available.

garbonzo

			*	*	*

Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
Posted by Dan Spears on August 07, 2003 at 01:11:00:
In Reply to: Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
posted by garbonzo on August 07, 2003 at 00:21:33:

> I can take Sentinal for you, if it is still available.

These are the titles that I can figure out to be left with no one helping on :
- Inhumans
- New Mutants
- NYX
- Hawkeye
- Thanos
- Venom
- Mystique
- Runaways

Of the above, I've already ordered Thanos for my sub service, so if you need help on that one, it's no problem, just let me know.  I'm willing to go for two others which I wouldn't normally buy, in the interest of helping out on this calendar.  The two left on the list which appeal to me the most are Inhumans and New Mutants.  Could someone please let me know for sure that these two titles are not being taken care of by someone else before I subscribe to them (and buy whatever back issues are already out)?

Thanks!
Dan

			*	*	*

Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 07, 2003 at 07:02:02:
In Reply to: Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
posted by Dan Spears on August 07, 2003 at 01:11:00:

Dan,

I forgot about Mystique and New Mutants.  I have those covered.  And I might decide to collect Hawkeye.  With Garbonzo on Sentinels (thanks, Garbonzo), that leaves...

Inhumans
NYX
Thanos
Venom
Runaways

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
Posted by drew  on August 07, 2003 at 11:39:46:
In Reply to: Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 07, 2003 at 07:02:02:

I will do Venom, but I may have to wait a few more issues to see just what or who venom is.

right now, its a bit unclear as what to put for the character of venom.

drew

			*	*	*

They're selling like hotcakes!
Posted by Kevin  on August 07, 2003 at 15:39:47:
In Reply to: Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
posted by drew  on August 07, 2003 at 11:39:46:

They're being snatched up like hotcakes!

I think there were some others being published, that haven't been listed yet:

Agent X (though it's about to be cancelled).
Exiles, (this is canon, right?  Of course, it doesn't take place in the Marvel Universe dimension, am I right?)
And the following titles are being currently published, but take place in the past of these characters careers; thus, they wouldn't affect the current calender. Those titles are:
Kingpin
Emma Frost
Namor

Since those take place in the past, I don't know if there's a neccesity for them.  I think the same can be said for Thor: Vikings.  It's not set in the present, (but it could turn out to be the recent past, right before Odin's death or whatever...)

Right about now, Paul's shaking his head thinking:  "Dear God, what have I started?!?!"

;-)

			*	*	*

Re: They're selling like hotcakes!
Posted by garbonzo on August 07, 2003 at 18:32:58:
In Reply to: They're selling like hotcakes!
posted by Kevin  on August 07, 2003 at 15:39:47:

>Exiles, (this is canon, right? Of course, it doesn't take place in the Marvel Universe dimension, am I right?)

Didn't the most recent couple of issues take place on Earth 616?  If so, do we need a listing for these characters on the MCP for those issues?

garbonzo

			*	*	*

Re: They're selling like hotcakes!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 07, 2003 at 21:28:07:
In Reply to: Re: They're selling like hotcakes!
posted by garbonzo on August 07, 2003 at 18:32:58:

That's okay, I have the current Earth-616 story in Exiles, but won't continue to collect the title once that story ends.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: They're selling like hotcakes!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 07, 2003 at 21:37:02:
In Reply to: They're selling like hotcakes!
posted by Kevin  on August 07, 2003 at 15:39:47:

> I think there were some others being published, that haven't been listed yet:

> Agent X (though it's about to be cancelled).

I have only issues 5, 6, 7, 9, and 10 of this series, so if anyone can fill in the other issues, that'd be great.

> And the following titles are being currently published, but take place in the past of these characters careers; thus, they wouldn't affect the current calender. Those titles are:

> Kingpin
> Emma Frost
> Namor

> Since those take place in the past, I don't know if there's a neccesity for them.  I think the same can be said for Thor: Vikings.  It's not set in the present, (but it could turn out to be the recent past, right before Odin's death or whatever...)

Kingpin, Emma Frost, and Namor are relevent to the MCP, but are not in current continuity, so they won't be in the current calendar project.

Thor: Vikings, on the other hand, is applicable if it occurs after Heroes Return.

> Right about now, Paul's shaking his head thinking:  "Dear God, what have I started?!?!"

I'm thinking: "I hope Russ doesn't think this is becoming the Marvel Calendar Project!"

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: They're selling like hotcakes!
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 08, 2003 at 15:32:22:
In Reply to: Re: They're selling like hotcakes!
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 07, 2003 at 21:37:02:

> Thor: Vikings, on the other hand, is applicable if it occurs after Heroes Return.

The story is meant to be taking place in 2003, so if it's canon, it's definitely post-Heroes Return.

			*	*	*

Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 07, 2003 at 21:31:24:
In Reply to: Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
posted by drew  on August 07, 2003 at 11:39:46:

> I will do Venom, but I may have to wait a few more issues to see just what or who venom is.

> right now, its a bit unclear as what to put for the character of venom.

We have a taker!  Thanks, Drew.

			*	*	*

Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
Posted by Dan Spears on August 07, 2003 at 23:56:14:
In Reply to: Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
posted by drew  on August 07, 2003 at 11:39:46:

> > > > > Other titles which I presume are canon and need coverage:

> > > > > Inhumans
> > > > > Sentinel

> > > > I can take Sentinal for you, if it is still available.

> > > These are the titles that I can figure out to be left with no one helping on :
> > > - Inhumans
> > > - New Mutants
> > > - NYX
> > > - Hawkeye
> > > - Thanos
> > > - Venom
> > > - Mystique
> > > - Runaways
> > > Of the above, I've already ordered Thanos for my sub service, so if you need help on that one, it's no problem, just let me know.  I'm willing to go for two others which I wouldn't normally buy, in the interest of helping out on this calendar.  The two left on the list which appeal to me the most are Inhumans and New Mutants.  Could someone please let me know for sure that these two titles are not being taken care of by someone else before I subscribe to them (and buy whatever back issues are already out)?

> > I forgot about Mystique and New Mutants.  I have those covered.  And I might decide to collect Hawkeye.  With Garbonzo on Sentinels (thanks, Garbonzo), that leaves...

> > Inhumans
> > NYX
> > Thanos
> > Venom
> > Runaways

> I will do Venom, but I may have to wait a few more issues to see just what or who venom is.

> right now, its a bit unclear as what to put for the character of venom.

Ok, I'll take Inhumans and Thanos for sure.  Also, since we're so close to having ALL of the current titles taken care of, I'll also take responsibility for NYX and Runaways if no one else is going to; but keep in mind, NYX is an X book - are we SURE no one else is going for that one?  If everyone could please do me a favor and try to post a Yay or Nay for the above books in the next day or two, then I'll alert my comic shop to add any not taken to my pull list, and start accumulating any relevant back issues.

Thanks!
Dan

			*	*	*

Re: NYX?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 08, 2003 at 07:20:34:
In Reply to: Re: What current series help do you need for calendar?
posted by Dan Spears on August 07, 2003 at 23:56:14:

> Ok, I'll take Inhumans and Thanos for sure.  Also, since we're so close to having ALL of the current titles taken care of, I'll also take responsibility for NYX and Runaways if no one else is going to; but keep in mind, NYX is an X book - are we SURE no one else is going for that one?  If everyone could please do me a favor and try to post a Yay or Nay for the above books in the next day or two, then I'll alert my comic shop to add any not taken to my pull list, and start accumulating any relevant back issues.

I must be out in limbo hangin' with the Space Phantom because I haven't heard any buzz about NYX.  I may decide to collect it, depending on who's slated to be in it and how tied to X-Men continuity it's supposed to be.  So any info would be appreciated.  And if I don't take it, one of our other resident X-perts might.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: NYX?
Posted by Jeph! on August 08, 2003 at 14:18:31:
In Reply to: Re: NYX?
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 08, 2003 at 07:20:34:

> I haven't heard any buzz about NYX.  I may decide to collect it, depending on who's slated to be in it and how tied to X-Men continuity it's supposed to be.  And if I don't take it, one of our other resident X-perts might.

Heh.  Pass.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: NYX?
Posted by garbonzo on August 08, 2003 at 10:09:11:
In Reply to: Re: NYX?
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 08, 2003 at 07:20:34:

From what I understand, NYX is going to follow a group of young, hip mutants who have not had the luxury of training from Xavier.  In other words, it is going to be a mutant book, but it is not going to be too closely related to the other X-books, if at all.

garbonzo

			*	*	*

Re: NYX?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 08, 2003 at 20:53:50:
In Reply to: Re: NYX?
posted by garbonzo on August 08, 2003 at 10:09:11:

Like Jeph, I'll pass one this one.

			*	*	*

Re: NYX?
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 09, 2003 at 06:26:05:
In Reply to: Re: NYX?
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 08, 2003 at 20:53:50:

I'll take NYX if nobody else wants it.  I'll be reviewing the thing anyway.

I suspect it's not going to tie in all that hugely.

			*	*	*

Re: NYX?
Posted by Dan Spears on August 09, 2003 at 07:45:10:
In Reply to: Re: NYX?
posted by Paul O'Brien on August 09, 2003 at 06:26:05:

It's yours then, Paul.  That leaves me with Inhumans, Thanos, and Runaways.

Thanks!

Dan

			*	*	*

Re: NYX?
Posted by Ben Szymkow on September 14, 2003 at 04:59:59:
In Reply to: Re: NYX?
posted by Dan Spears on August 09, 2003 at 07:45:10:

NYX is about homeless mutants in Alphabet City according to Wizard magazine. Sounds pretty good to me.

Simcof

			*	*	*

Iron Man was a villian?
Posted by lepnhoj on August 08, 2003 at 09:46:54:

Hi.  I was exploring your web site and saw that Iron Man was a villian.  I stopped reading IM back in the early 90's.  When and why was this revealed?

			*	*	*

Re: Iron Man was a villian?
Posted by Administrator on August 08, 2003 at 17:08:10:
In Reply to: Iron Man was a villian?
posted by lepnhoj on August 08, 2003 at 09:46:54:

> I was exploring your web site and saw that Iron Man was a villian.  

Where did you see this on our web site?

			*	*	*

Re: Iron Man was a villian?
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 08, 2003 at 17:32:49:
In Reply to: Re: Iron Man was a villian?
posted by Administrator on August 08, 2003 at 17:08:10:

From the FAQ:

Q. Is it just me, or is there more than one gap here?

Okay, you caught us. Now the truth can be told. Beginning generally around Onslaught, and running for about a year, there is in fact a second gap. 

To begin with, let's take a look at the status of several classic Marvel titles and characters shortly before Onslaught. 

[...]

Iron Man: Double Surprise! Tony Stark is, and always has been, a villain. Then, a teen Tony. Then, preparing to be cancelled and rebooted, from the beginning.

- SK

			*	*	*

Re: Iron Man was a villian?
Posted by Administrator on August 08, 2003 at 21:28:54:
In Reply to: Re: Iron Man was a villian?
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 08, 2003 at 17:32:49:

> From the FAQ:

Ah. So he got it from me. I'll leave the plot details to someone else, but as to the when, that would have been sometime around 1995.

			*	*	*

It's 'The Crossing' -- only it's not.
Posted by BobMM on August 12, 2003 at 09:45:58:
In Reply to: Re: Iron Man was a villian?
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 08, 2003 at 17:32:49:

> Iron Man: Double Surprise! Tony Stark is, and always has been, a villain. Then, a teen Tony. Then, preparing to be cancelled and rebooted, from the beginning.

As a last gasp prior to Heroes Reborn, The Avengers were subjected to an overblown adventure that started with a special issue called 'The Crossing'.  The story spanned AVENGERS, WAR MACHINE, IRON MAN and FORCE WORKS for several months and was ultimately incoherent.

In it, Stark is revealed to have been a tool of Kang for years. He dies and, in the special 'Timeslide' issue, the Avengers pluck a younger version of Tony from an alternate Universe.

However, 'Avengers Forever' calls the legitimacy of most of this into queston.  AF argues that it wasn't Kang at all, but Immortus and a bunch of Space Phantoms who were just diddling with The Avengers to distract them for awhile. 

So Stark probably WASN'T a villain, except for the brief period of time during 'The Crossing' that he believed, incorrectly, that he had been a long-time tool of Kang's.

			*	*	*

Re: It's 'The Crossing' -- only it's not.
Posted by Kevin  on August 12, 2003 at 11:39:54:
In Reply to: It's 'The Crossing' -- only it's not.
posted by BobMM on August 12, 2003 at 09:45:58:

Follow up Question, (since Kurt Busiek, to my knowledge, never answered this):  just what DID happen to the teenage Tony Stark?

			*	*	*

Re: It's 'The Crossing' -- only it's not.
Posted by David Smith on August 12, 2003 at 11:46:13:
In Reply to: Re: It's 'The Crossing' -- only it's not.
posted by Kevin  on August 12, 2003 at 11:39:54:

Actually, Kurt did answer it. Origionally the answer was supposwed to be part of a one-shot special "A Look Back in Armor" that never materialized. Instead, the answer took the form of a back-up story (In an Iron Man or Avengers Annual, I forget exactly which and where). Basically, as I understand it, Teen Tony was sucked in to the Onslaught effect he somehow merged with the real Tony to become the Heroes Reborn Tony who eventually returned to the real Marvel U as The Heroes Returned Tony with the memories of all three (Real, Teen, and Reborn) Tony's. Perhaps someone else can explain it better, the whole teen tony mess gives me a headache :-(

			*	*	*

Re: It's 'The Crossing' -- only it's not.
Posted by Jeph! on August 12, 2003 at 14:25:35:
In Reply to: Re: It's 'The Crossing' -- only it's not.
posted by David Smith on August 12, 2003 at 11:46:13:

That's essentially it.  Teen Tony jumped into the Onslaught effect -- and somehow, Franklin Richards merged Teen Tony and the real Tony Stark's corpse.  The resulting entity was given the all-NEW memories of the Heroes Reborn world, and when he came back to the Marvel Universe, he regained the memories of the real Tony Stark and Teen Tony -- although the Teen and HR memories faded over time.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Guardians Of The Galaxy?
Posted by Greg Johnson on August 08, 2003 at 10:00:10:

Your massive index has very few appearances by the Guardians.  If they don't exist in Marvel Time, couldn't you at least list the books they appear in?  The female Yellowjacket made the team, but I have no idea how she got into their future.  Thanks

			*	*	*

Re: Guardians Of The Galaxy?
Posted by Administrator on August 08, 2003 at 17:09:22:
In Reply to: Guardians Of The Galaxy?
posted by Greg Johnson on August 08, 2003 at 10:00:10:

> Your massive index has very few appearances by the Guardians.  If they don't exist in Marvel Time, couldn't you at least list the books they appear in?  

One day, we will, but probably not before the 1993 gap is closed.

			*	*	*

Re: Guardians Of The Galaxy?
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 08, 2003 at 17:29:52:
In Reply to: Guardians Of The Galaxy?
posted by Greg Johnson on August 08, 2003 at 10:00:10:

> If [the Guardians] don't exist in Marvel Time, couldn't you at least list the books they appear in?

The Guardians belong to the same timeline as Killraven, and there is already a page for him.  As Kurt Busiek is fond of saying, "Wait and see."

> The female Yellowjacket made the team, but I have no idea how she got into their future.

She showed up in GOTG #28 as one of the Masters of Evil while the Guardians were in the Mainstream reality.  When they went back to their nook of the multiverse, she was a stowaway.

- SK

			*	*	*

Calendar volunteers unite!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 08, 2003 at 22:26:27:

I think the flurry of e-mails has died down enough for me to recap where we seem to be.  If there are still canon titles set in the present day that are missing, let me know.  If new titles pop up, please post if youd like to add them to your list.

(Plus I still have some recently published comics I'll need help with -- e.g. the issues of Thunderbolts, Agent X, and Call of Duty mentioned in previous posts.)

PAUL BOURCIER:
Amazing Spider-Man
Avengers
Captain America
Captain Marvel
Fantastic Four
Hawkeye
Human Torch
Iron Man
Mystique
New Mutants
New X-Men
Spectacular Spider-Man
Spider-Man/Wolverine
Thor
Uncanny X-Men
Weapon X
X-Men Unlimited
X-Treme X-Men
X-Statix

DREW
Venom

GARBONZO
Sentinel

ANTONIO GAVIO
(occasional Spider-Man limited series?)

SEAN KLEEFELD
(occasional FF limited series?)

PAUL OBRIEN
Crew
Elektra
Silver Surfer
Thor:Vikings

DAN SPEARS
Inhumans
NYX
Runaways
Thanos

KEVIN WASSER:
Daredevil
Incredible Hulk
Punisher

JEPH YORK:
Alias
Wolverine

Some of you are relative newcomers, but if youve been following the threads, you probably have the gist of the techniques for recording info for calendar placement.  In case you need it, though, here are some things that would help me integrate your contributions into the calendar:

1) If a single issue spans more than one day, please separate the issue into entries for each day, including page/panel ranges [e.g. X-MEN FOREVER #6 (1-33p1) or GAMBIT v3 #20 (20p3-22)]

2) Likewise, if there are any flashbacks in the issue, devote a separate entry to each one, again with page/panel ranges [e.g. MAXIMUM SECURITY #1  FB (28p1-28p3) or BLACK PANTHER v3 #25  FB (1p4-14)]

3) For each entry (be it flashback or contemporary segment or whole issue), please note what you can of the following:
 Short plot synopsis
 List of characters in that entry
 Notes about characters and plotlines that might help in relative chronological placement (e.g. Falcon is wearing the costume introduced in A3 57, Logan is sporting a goatee, Bruce Banner is on the lam, Ant-Man is with the Avengers, Archangel has healing powers, Vision is injured, etc.)
 Temporal references (see #4 below)

4) Temporal references may include as many of the following as apply to the particular segment:

 Specific references to issues of other titles made in editorial notes (usually so we know your segment occurs after the referenced issue, even though we may not have a clue about passage of time)

 References to the passage of time between the segment and some previous issue or event [e.g.: same day as previous issue (if it picks up where things left off); so-and-so referred to as having occurred the other day or last week or last summer or last year; three weeks after XMF 6 (1-33) or a month after TW5 (21-22).  If you know the citation, you can use MCP abbreviations.

 References to things that are expected to happen in the future (e.g. a promotion next month, a resignation in five days, a birthday coming up next Tuesday)

 Specific mention of days of the week, months, dates, holidays, birthdays, anniversaries, etc. in speech, narration, calendars, journals, newspapers, invitations, etc.

 Seasonal references such as vegetation and foliage, natural weather (snow, hurricane, tornado, etc.), temperature (nature of clothing), etc., including clues given in speech and narration (hot, cold, etc.)

 Other clues to days of the week or time of year (banks open, schools open, vacations, sports seasons, etc.)

 Lunar phases shown [e.g. full moon, gibbous moon, waxing crescent moon (backward C), waning crescent moon (C), half moon]

Not all these references will have equal weight, and some will have to be chalked up to being temporal references (an Olshevsky term), but every one you note will be considered when placing flashbacks, segments, and entire issues on the calendar.

EXAMPLES:

UNCANNY X-MEN #421 (1-21p1)
Probably the day after UX 420.  Scott and Jean seem to be on friendly terms, so this segment should occur prior to Jeans trip to Hong Kong, first referenced in X 134 (3-22).  Juggernaut asks to stay with the X-Men.  Professor X fills Havok in on what he missed during his coma, then Polaris proposes to Havok and they plan to leave on an archaeological dig.  Nightcrawler decides to join them.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

X-MEN UNLIMITED #44
One hot day, with green grass and trees in Westchester.  Given the relationship that has grown between Sammy and Juggernaut, this story likely occurs after UX 421 (1-21) and before Sammys departure in UX 422.  Jean is at Xaviers in this story, and she meets Sammy for the first time, so it cant be very long after UX 410.  Kurt appears here, but he doesnt appear to be in a position of leadership, which is consistent with his status between UX 421 (1-21) and UX 421 (21-22).  Logan is here without a goatee; apparently hes shaved the goatee he sported in XX 21 and UX 417-420.  Juggernaut learns a lesson as the X-Men deal with some local boys who torture animals.  There appears to be no school today, so it is likely a weekend day if this occurs during the school season (although there are apparently Sunday classes, as in X 135).

Of course, if you have any questions, please let me know.  I hope this wont be as onerous as it may seem, but Im assuming youve volunteered because you thought it would be fun to analyze the heck out of Marvel comics...;)

And thanks to all of you for your help.  Im gratified by the show of support.  Its a long, tedious process, but I hope well eventually make a worthwhile contribution to the MCP and have some interesting discussion while were at it.

Paul

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Re: Calendar volunteers unite!
Posted by Jeph! on August 08, 2003 at 22:56:47:
In Reply to: Calendar volunteers unite!
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 08, 2003 at 22:26:27:

> JEPH YORK:
> Alias
> Wolverine

No!  Just Wolvie!  Sean's got Alias.

Where IS Sean, anyway?

Paul, by the way, you've told me this a million times, but -- WHICH specific Wolvie issues do you need info for?

-Jeph!

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Re: Calendar volunteers unite!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 09, 2003 at 08:14:18:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar volunteers unite!
posted by Jeph! on August 08, 2003 at 22:56:47:

Oops, my bad.

The Wolverine issues I need are W2 183 and 189.  Then if you could pick up from W3 4 on, that would be great.

--Paul

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Re: Calendar volunteers unite!
Posted by Jeph! on August 09, 2003 at 23:06:48:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar volunteers unite!
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 09, 2003 at 08:14:18:

> The Wolverine issues I need are W2 183 and 189.  Then if you could pick up from W3 4 on, that would be great.

Really, you got #177-180 covered?  Last I remembered, you needed info for those as well...

I'll see if I can't get right on those issues.

-Jeph!

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Re: Calendar volunteers unite!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 10, 2003 at 09:06:25:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar volunteers unite!
posted by Jeph! on August 09, 2003 at 23:06:48:

I found them (quite unexpectedly) in my local public library!

--Paul

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Re: Calendar volunteers unite!
Posted by Kevin  on August 09, 2003 at 11:01:45:
In Reply to: Calendar volunteers unite!
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 08, 2003 at 22:26:27:

Let's go over this, Paul, so I can be clear.  I know you can interpret my style when I do reviews, but can you clarify the following about "your style":

> 1) If a single issue spans more than one day, please separate the issue into entries for each day, including page/panel ranges [e.g. X-MEN FOREVER #6 (1-33p1) or GAMBIT v3 #20 (20p3-22)]

So, (just to be clear) the abbreviations mean that this is Xmen Forever issue 6, pages 1-33, (so what's that p1 on the end?)  

And that's Gambit volume 3 issue 20, 20? (what's that 20 mean) pages 3-22?

> 2) Likewise, if there are any flashbacks in the issue, devote a separate entry to each one, again with page/panel ranges [e.g. MAXIMUM SECURITY #1  FB (28p1-28p3) or BLACK PANTHER v3 #25  FB (1p4-14)]

So, uh, here we have Maximum Security issue 1, a flashback on page 28, panels 1 to 3?

And in Black Panther, volume 3, Issue 25, a flashback on page 1, panels 4-14?

Clarify this for me, will you? 

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Re: Calendar volunteers unite!
Posted by Administrator on August 09, 2003 at 11:34:48:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar volunteers unite!
posted by Kevin  on August 09, 2003 at 11:01:45:

Paul can correct me, if I'm wrong:

> Let's go over this, Paul, so I can be clear.  I know you can interpret my style when I do reviews, but can you clarify the following about "your style":

> > 1) If a single issue spans more than one day, please separate the issue into entries for each day, including page/panel ranges [e.g. X-MEN FOREVER #6 (1-33p1) or GAMBIT v3 #20 (20p3-22)]

> So, (just to be clear) the abbreviations mean that this is Xmen Forever issue 6, pages 1-33, (so what's that p1 on the end?)  

X-Men Forever, issue 6, page 1 through panel 1 of page 33.

> And that's Gambit volume 3 issue 20, 20? (what's that 20 mean) pages 3-22?

Gambit volume 3, issue 20, panel 3 of page 20 through page 22.

> > 2) Likewise, if there are any flashbacks in the issue, devote a separate entry to each one, again with page/panel ranges [e.g. MAXIMUM SECURITY #1  FB (28p1-28p3) or BLACK PANTHER v3 #25  FB (1p4-14)]

> So, uh, here we have Maximum Security issue 1, a flashback on page 28, panels 1 to 3?

Yes.

> And in Black Panther, volume 3, Issue 25, a flashback on page 1, panels 4-14?

Black Panther, volume 3, issue 25, a flashback running from panel 4 of page 1 through page 14.

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Re: Calendar volunteers unite!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 09, 2003 at 18:04:17:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar volunteers unite!
posted by Administrator on August 09, 2003 at 11:34:48:

> Paul can correct me, if I'm wrong:

Russ is absolutely correct on every count.

TITLE, followed by volume number (v#), followed by issue number, followed by "-- FB" if it's a flashback, then page/panel ranges in parentheses

Examples of page/panel ranges:
(20) = page 20
(1-5) =pages 1 through 5
(3p4-7) = page 3, panel 4 through end of page 7
(11-12p1) = beginning of page 11 through page 12, panel 1
(8p2-18p3) = page 8, panel 2 through page 18, panel 3

Sorry I wasn't explicit about this before.  To give credit where it's due, this is the format Antonio introduced to me.

--Paul

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Re: Calendar volunteers unite!
Posted by Kevin  on August 11, 2003 at 12:05:30:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar volunteers unite!
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 09, 2003 at 18:04:17:

Thanks for the explanation, guys. ;-)

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Re: Calendar volunteers unite!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 11, 2003 at 19:55:18:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar volunteers unite!
posted by Kevin  on August 11, 2003 at 12:05:30:

Forgot an example that occasionaly crops up -- the two-page spread:

(2/3p2-2/3p5) = panels 2 through 5 of a two-page spread on pages 2 and 3

(7/8p3-11) = panel 3 of a two-page spread on pages 7 and 8 through the end of page 11

and so on...

--Paul

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Current Spidey books
Posted by Antonio Gavio on August 09, 2003 at 16:05:19:
In Reply to: Calendar volunteers unite!
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 08, 2003 at 22:26:27:

I'm having some trouble to work on the chronologies for the current Spider-Man books because the writers aren't even mentioning the facts happening in the other writer's book. In SPECTACULAR (and PETER PARKER before) Peter seems to be still separated from MJ and Flash is in a comma, and in AMAZING MJ is back. It's almost like at some point Peter's life split into two divergent timelines. So I guess we'll have to wait until something from one of the books is mentioned in the other to start working. Anyway, Paul, I still think that we should start working on the calendar starting on FF 1 instead of doing it the way we are doing it right now. I see a lot of people is voluteering to help with the calendar. Well, you know that I'll be covering everything Spider-Man and Avengers related.

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Re: Current Spidey books
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 09, 2003 at 18:15:41:
In Reply to: Current Spidey books
posted by Antonio Gavio on August 09, 2003 at 16:05:19:

> I'm having some trouble to work on the chronologies for the current Spider-Man books because the writers aren't even mentioning the facts happening in the other writer's book. In SPECTACULAR (and PETER PARKER before) Peter seems to be still separated from MJ and Flash is in a comma, and in AMAZING MJ is back. It's almost like at some point Peter's life split into two divergent timelines. So I guess we'll have to wait until something from one of the books is mentioned in the other to start working. 

I'm willing to assume that PETER PARKER and SPECTACULAR occur during Peter's separation from M.J. -- there seem to be enough clues to support this.  Should I give this a shot?

> Anyway, Paul, I still think that we should start working on the calendar starting on FF 1 instead of doing it the way we are doing it right now. 

I've been making the assumption (perhaps incorrectly) that, from the standpoint of the MCP, covering the post-Heroes Return period would be a higher priority so that: a) we can be sure posted character chronologies of fairly recent times are in order; and b) we can continue to add to those chronologies.  Russ, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I have a significant head start on a calendar covering the 11 or so MU years following FF 1, although the data would need some significant reformatting.  We could go back to this after we whip the last few years into shape.  Do folks have opinions about this?

> I see a lot of people is voluteering to help with the calendar. Well, you know that I'll be covering everything Spider-Man and Avengers related.

I have the regular Spidey and Avengers titles covered, but I don't always collect limited series.  For example, I don't plan to pick up the upcoming Doctor Octopus limited series.  Would you be willing to tackle these?

--Paul

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Re: Current Spidey books
Posted by Administrator on August 09, 2003 at 19:10:54:
In Reply to: Re: Current Spidey books
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 09, 2003 at 18:15:41:

> > Anyway, Paul, I still think that we should start working on the calendar starting on FF 1 instead of doing it the way we are doing it right now. 

> I've been making the assumption (perhaps incorrectly) that, from the standpoint of the MCP, covering the post-Heroes Return period would be a higher priority so that: a) we can be sure posted character chronologies of fairly recent times are in order; and b) we can continue to add to those chronologies.  Russ, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Very diplomatically put, Paul ;)

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Re: Current Spidey books
Posted by Antonio Gavio on August 10, 2003 at 17:29:12:
In Reply to: Re: Current Spidey books
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 09, 2003 at 18:15:41:

> I have the regular Spidey and Avengers titles covered, but I don't always collect limited series.  For example, I don't plan to pick up the upcoming Doctor Octopus limited series.  Would you be willing to tackle these?

Yes, I will

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Daredevil & Bullseye question
Posted by Cook on August 09, 2003 at 06:39:43:

During the most recent issue of Daredevil, DD makes reference to hunting down Bullseye and almost killing him while he slept.  This doesn't ring a bell, but I'm missing a few issues of this second series.  Can anyone tell me where this took place (if it was shown)?

Thanks!

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Re: Daredevil & Bullseye question
Posted by Kevin  on August 09, 2003 at 10:46:08:
In Reply to: Daredevil & Bullseye question
posted by Cook on August 09, 2003 at 06:39:43:

It was never shown.  This narrative given by Daredevil is supposed to have happened at some point between DD2 #8, (the end of the DD/Bullseye/Mysterio storyline) and before DD2 #49.  And I don't think it said he actually DID catch up to Bullseye and considered killing him in his sleep, he was saying he searched around and found all sorts of info on Bullseye's origin and childhood famliy life, and he for a time WANTED to catch up to Bullseye and kill him in his sleep.

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Re: Daredevil & Bullseye question
Posted by Jeph! on August 09, 2003 at 23:09:35:
In Reply to: Re: Daredevil & Bullseye question
posted by Kevin  on August 09, 2003 at 10:46:08:

Could also be a reference to the as-yet-unseen events of "Daredevil: the Target" #2-4.

-Jeph!

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Re: Daredevil & Bullseye question
Posted by Kevin  on August 11, 2003 at 11:41:38:
In Reply to: Re: Daredevil & Bullseye question
posted by Jeph! on August 09, 2003 at 23:09:35:

That's a possibility, but we'd have to wait and see the rest of that miniseries to find out, (and that could be another 2 to 3 years...)

			*	*	*

Chronology review: Elektra vol 2 #1-6
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 09, 2003 at 06:52:31:

Well, let's make a start.

ELEKTRA #1-6 is the Brian Bendis run.  The first five issues comprise the book's first story arc.  Issue #6 is a standalone story for Nuff Said month, which ties directly into DAREDEVIL continuity.

==========

FIRST STORY ARC:-
ELEKTRA vol 2 #1 (September 2001) by Brian Bendis and Chuck Austen
ELEKTRA vol 2 #2 (October 2001) by Bendis and Austen
ELEKTRA vol 2 #3 (November 2001) by Bendis and Austen
ELEKTRA vol 2 #4 (December 2001) by Bendis and Austen
ELEKTRA vol 2 #5 (January 2002) by Bendis and Austen

GENERAL COMMENTS:
The storyline has no title.

The story has the considerable misfortune to straddle September 11 and involve the USA bombing a middle eastern country.  Unusually, while the story is expressly set in Iraq, Marvel-Iraq is ruled by Saddam Abed Dasam, a character who does not resemble Saddam Hussein.  While it's never outright explained, the implication is that Dasam has recently come to power by deposing the previous government (possibly with the assistance of HYDRA, possibly under his own power).  Presumably the Ba'ath party then seizes control again once Dasam is killed at the end of the storyline.

The storyline involves a framing sequence in which Elektra relates the events of the story to the gunman who killed her father.  However, that framing sequence does not appear in every issue, and some scenes depict events where Elektra wasn't present.  Either the entire story is a flashback narrated by Elektra - rendering large parts of it potentially unreliable - or it's simply nonlinear.  My view is that it's meant to be nonlinear, and save for one piece of illusion-casting, everything we see is supposed to be genuine.  What follows is a scene-by-scene breakdown of the storyline in chronological order.

The main story is placed "one week" before the framing sequence.  The exact placement of the Central Park scene is a little ambiguous, but takes place somewhere in the intervening period.  Most of the main story takes place in the course of one day and night in Baghdad, and in a rare boon for calendar writers, somebody actually gives us a specific date: 17 July 2001.

SYNOPSIS

ELEKTRA #1, pp11-21.  Paris, daytime.  A roadside cafe.  Elektra meets with Stanley Dreyfuss, an agent of SHIELD.  Stanley briefs Elektra on a mission they'd like her to undertake.  Saddam Abed Dasam is "now running Iraq."  He has.. ahem... "nuclear weapons of mass destruction."  Stanley explains that Dasam is a popular anti-American leader who seized power with the help of HYDRA.  HYDRA [or at least, this particular faction] is "under new management" and has changed tack - it is now "a powerful terrorist force who are financially assisting a conglomerate of smaller nations that have defected from the United Nations."  By assisting these minor nations, HYDRA plans to turn itself into an alternative world power.  SHIELD want Elektra to break into Dasam's Baghdad compound and steal an antique box - and kill Dasam at the same time.  Stanley refuses to tell Elektra what's in the box.  Elektra insists on talking to Nick Fury, and Fury duly calls on Stanley's cellphone.  He asks her to take the job, says that it's the right thing to do, and also offers her an amnesty on all past crimes if she does so.  Elektra disappears without giving a firm answer.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Stanley Dreyfuss, Nick Fury.

[There's a sign over the cafe reading "Le Beaujolais Nouveau EST ARRIVE...!"  One of Stanley's photos in the briefing file is datestamped 30 November 1999, but it must be an old photo.  Elektra is evidently available for hire at the beginning of this story, and SHIELD have contacted her through her usual channels.  This scene takes place "one week" before the framing sequence.]

ELEKTRA #1, pp22-37, ELEKTRA #2 pp1-2.  Baghdad, day.  Stanley and another SHIELD agent, Molly Stiles, are sitting in another market cafe waiting for Elektra to show.  Elektra leaves a message for Stanley, saying that she wants twice as much money, and wants it directly from Fury.  Stanley goes into a paranoid panic and starts unmasking local woman to see if they're Elektra.  A gunfight inexplicably breaks out.  Elektra appears, in costume, and kills the three attacking gunmen, who turn out to be plainclothes HYDRA henchmen.  Elektra suggests that they must have tailed Stanley or Molly.  Elektra then seemingly turns on Stanley, who shoots her pointblank in the face and kills her.  Realising that he has cocked things up totally, Stanley panics...

Characters appearing: Elektra, Stanley Dreyfuss, Molly Stiles.

[Evidently at least one day after the previous scene, to allow everyone to travel to Baghdad and meet there in daylight.  Judging by the next scene, this is either 16 or 17 July 2001.]

ELEKTRA #2 pp3-6.  Stanley's hotel room, day.  Stanley wakes up from a nightmare about killing Elektra, screaming.  He starts writing a log report to Nick Fury accepting responsibility for Elektra's death.  Molly and another SHIELD agent interrupt to call Stanley down for a meeting with Fury.

Characters appearing: Stanley Dreyfuss, Molly Stiles

[This is either the same day as the preceding scene, or the next day.  Stanley's memo is dated 17 July 2001, providing our breakdown.]

ELEKTRA #2, p7 to p13pn2.  Stanley is led down to a basement where Fury, Dugan and some other unnamed SHIELD operatives are working.  Fury says that Elektra is not dead and must have implanted an illusion in his mind, but confirms that the rest of the market fight scene happened as shown.  Elektra turns up from the shadows, and warns Fury that he has traitors in the ranks.  Fury doesn't believe her.  Elektra again demands to know what's in the box, and Fury inaudibly whispers the answer in her ear.  He threatens to have Elektra brought to justice if she does not accept the mission.  She disappears before he can continue the conversation.  Fury sends his men to look for her.  For no apparent reason "Agent Carter" - presumably Sharon Carter - phones for Fury at this point, although her voice isn't heard.  There's no suggestion that Carter is actually in Baghdad or involved in this particular assignment.  Molly says that she's going out for some air.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Stanley Dreyfuss, Molly Stiles, Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Sharon Carter [?]

[Evidently this is almost immediately after the previous scene, still on 17 July 2001.]

ELEKTRA #2, p13pn3 to p20.  Molly leaves the building, takes a jeep, and drives off to Dasam's headquarters.  There, she meets the two HYDRA agents in charge (King and Zalman), as well as Dasam himself.  Molly is a HYDRA double-agent.  They watch two news reports of Dasam's recent anti-American speeches (one American, one Iraqi).  Molly asks for more money, as the mission has become more dangerous than she expected.  Molly tells HYDRA and Dasam what she knows about Elektra's mission (nothing more than the reader knows).  Dasam produces the box and reveals that it contains "the Scorpio Key" [apparently the Zodiac Key under a different name].  Dasam says that they will be using it shortly; Molly recognises it and is terrified.  Dasam says that if Molly comes to them uninvited again, her family will be killed.

Characters appearing: Molly Stiles, Agent King, Agent Zalman, Saddam Dasam

[This scene is also still on 17 July 2001.]

ELEKTRA #2 pp21-22.  As Molly is driving back from Dasam's headquarters, Elektra ambushes her, kicks her out of the jeep and drives off in it.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Molly Stiles

[Again, still 17 July 2001.]

ELEKTRA #3, pp3-10.  Baghdad, dusk.  Presumably the same day as issue #2.  Stanley and another SHIELD agent go for a walk and get caught up in a local street fight.  Elektra turns up, beats up the locals, and again disappears without confirming whether she will take the assignment.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Stanley Dreyfuss

[17 July 2001.]

ELEKTRA #3, pp11-15.  It's getting darker.  On the streets of Baghdad, Elektra is approached by Agent Zalman and a couple of HYDRA henchmen.  Zalman explains that HYDRA would also like to hire her to kill Dasam and steal the Key for them.  Then HYDRA will take Iraq for themselves.  Zalman demands Elektra's answer "by sundown".  If she does not meet them, they will track her down again and "I don't think you'll like it."

Characters appearing: Elektra, Agent Zalman

[Judging from the colouring it's already past sundown, but the next couple of scenes are written in a way that suggests she still has a couple of hours to go.  So it's apparently just dusk on 17 July 2001.]

ELEKTRA #3, pp16-18.  Stanley finds Elektra in his hotel room.  They have a rather cryptic conversation about Elektra's motivations, the main point of which is that Elektra feels she can talk to Stanley "because you're not real."  Stanley is bemused by this.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Stanley Dreyfuss

[Evidently still dusk on 17 July 2001.]

ELEKTRA #3, pp19-21, ELEKTRA #4, ELEKTRA #5 pp1-15.  Elektra meets Zalman as requested, but refuses to give an answer to his proposal.  Zalman brings out the Silver Samurai, whom he has hired as a henchmen.  Elektra and the Samurai fight, and Elektra wins (possibly killing the Samurai; it's unclear).  Meanwhile, Stanley Dreyfuss asks Fury why Elektra says he isn't real, and ends up learning that he's really an LMD.  Stanley storms off to help Elektra.  SHIELD pull the plug on his remote power supply, leaving him with 30 minutes to live.  At his fortress, Dasam takes out the Scorpio Key, and the fortress begins to crackle with power.  SHIELD call in an air strike.  Stanley arrives at the fortress and helps Elektra with the henchmen until his power runs out and he dies.  Elektra goes into the fortress and confronts Dasam.  Moments later, the energy around the fortress fades; presumably Elektra just killed him.  When Nick Fury and SHIELD enter the fortress, Elektra is gone and everyone is dead [reduced to skeletons, making identification tricky].  Elektra has left a handwritten note for Fury, telling him to meet her in Central Park at noon on Wednesday.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Agent Zalman, the Silver Samurai, Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Stanley Dreyfuss, Saddam Dasam

[Sundown on 17 July 2001, continuing into the night.  All of issue #4 has strips at the top and bottom of each page showing contemporaneous US and Iraqi TV news; this implies that the whole of issue #4 runs through without any breaks at all.  The news reports have no narrative significance, other than that the Iraqi station goes off the air halfway through, and I won't bother synopsising them.  Note that Stanley's half-hour deadline runs out on page 6 of issue #5.]

[The day given in the note is a little awkward.  18 July 2001 was in fact a Wednesday, so either Elektra means 18 or 25 July.  The latter seems more probable, in which case Elektra presumably appears in that scene on the same day as the framing sequence material, to maintain the "one week ago" structure.]

ELEKTRA #5, pp16-18.  Central Park.  Presumably noon on "Wednesday" as per Elektra's note.  Fury attends to meet with Elektra.  She tells him that she is keeping the Scorpio Key because none of the other parties involved are fit to take care of it.

[18 July 2001 was in fact a Wednesday, so presumably this is either 18 or 25 July.  The latter seems more probable, given the wording of Elektra's note - "Wednesday", not "today" or "tomorrow" - and the time it would take the characters to return to New York.  If so, this scene presumably takes place on the same day as the framing sequence.]

ELEKTRA #1, pp1-10, ELEKTRA #3 pp1-2, ELEKTRA #5 pp19-22.  This is the framing sequence.  Night, full moon.  An unidentified suburban town.  Elektra breaks into the home of the man who shot her father.  She wakes him and holds him at the point of her sai.  Elektra helpfully summarises her origin for the benefit of newcomers, and then recounts the above story.  She gives the man the Scorpio Key for safekeeping, claiming that she can trust him "because we share the intimate bond of a tragedy."

[The scene in Paris in issue #1 is described as "one week ago."  However, the scenes in Baghdad in issue #3 are also "one week ago" so presumably there is some latitude here.  The framing sequence must be around 25 July 2001, anyway.  A newspaper seen in issue #5 carries a story headlined "Saddam Dead?" and beginning "Rescue workers continue to sift through the rubble of the..." - but we don't see the date.]

======

ELEKTRA #6 (February 2002) by Bendis and Austen

GENERAL COMMENTS: This is the Nuff Said issue.  Before she leaves Matt's office, Elektra leaves him a handwritten note warning him that there is a bounty on his head.  Matt finds that note at the beginning of DAREDEVIL vol 2 #28, which is presumably the next day.  However, she doesn't actually appear in that issue.

SYNOPSIS
ELEKTRA #6, pp1-2.  Paris, daytime.  Elektra goes to a safety deposit box and picks up an envelope offering her a job.  It's an open bounty on Matt Murdock.  She's not happy.

[No mention of the date, but presumably Elektra then travels almost immediately to New York to follow up, as we see in the next scene.  This could just about be on the same day as the main story.]

ELEKTRA #6, pp3-19.  New York, night.  Elektra breaks into Matt's office and wanders around for a bit.  She finds one of her old belt sashes in Matt's drawer and takes it.  A female assassin comes in through the window.  Elektra takes her up to the roof to fight.  Elektra defeats the assassin, shows the assassin her autopsy scars for some reason, and then knocks the assassin out.  Elektra heads off, leaving the assassin unconscious on the rooftop.  

[The assassin is named in the script as Angelica Roeg.  She was apparently intended to return as a character in DAREDEVIL, confirming that she isn't meant to be dead at the end of this story.]

ELEKTRA #6, pp20-21.  Elektra visits her grave and leaves the sash on the tombstone.

[Low light, so it's possible this is meant to be the same night as before.  Elektra has changed back into normal clothes, by the way.]

============

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: Elektra vol 2 #1-6
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 09, 2003 at 08:29:12:
In Reply to: Chronology review: Elektra vol 2 #1-6
posted by Paul O'Brien on August 09, 2003 at 06:52:31:

This is great, Paul!  Exactly the kind of info I need, and in a format that will be easy for me to plug into the calendar.  Thanks much.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: Elektra vol 2 #1-6
Posted by Kevin  on August 09, 2003 at 11:04:02:
In Reply to: Chronology review: Elektra vol 2 #1-6
posted by Paul O'Brien on August 09, 2003 at 06:52:31:

> Well, let's make a start.

Man, that's pretty good.  I'm jealous. I thought I was the only one who could interpret Bendis' bizaar (what I call "Tarantino") style of writing, (over on Daredevil).

;-)

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: Elektra vol 2 #1-6
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 09, 2003 at 22:09:03:
In Reply to: Chronology review: Elektra vol 2 #1-6
posted by Paul O'Brien on August 09, 2003 at 06:52:31:

Just a few comments, if I may, now that I've had a chance to analyze this great data...

> Most of the main story takes place in the course of one day and night in Baghdad, and in a rare boon for calendar writers, somebody actually gives us a specific date: 17 July 2001.

The unfortunate thing is that the date doesn't work  :(  It doesn't square with the temporal clues and dates given in Daredevil, with which issue #6 intersects.  And putting it before 9-11 doesn't square with Nick Fury's chronology, as he is clearly head of SHIELD here (following CA3 48).

I ended up putting the first five issues in the early April after 9-11, right before the Kang War explodes.  As suggested in an earlier post, I'm placing the beginning of the story during the time when Cap is believed to be dead (not that Nick would have selected Cap for an assassination assignment anyway).

> ELEKTRA #3, pp3-10. 
> ELEKTRA #3, pp11-15. 
> ELEKTRA #3, pp16-18.

No need to go to the trouble of breaking the story into scenes if they're all on the same day in the same issue.  

> ELEKTRA #3, pp19-21, ELEKTRA #4, ELEKTRA #5 pp1-15. 

But here it would help to break this into three parts, one for each issue, and each with its own character listing.  That would help greatly for MCP character chronologies.

Thanks again, Paul.

(I'm thinking...and seem to recall reading somewhere...that you're from the British Isles.  I notice the posting times and spelling of "colour" as clues...)

			*	*	*

SCINTILLA...SCORPION...SCRAMBLER
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 09, 2003 at 09:34:40:

new entries marked **

SCINTILLA
AWC 81
AWC 81-FB
AWC 81
**Q 33  unnamed Pg 6/5

SCORPION/MACDONALD GARGAN
ASM 370
**CA 411 Pg 18/1;   3rd in, 3rd row, ; behind and to the viewers right of Stiltman
CA 412

SCRAMBLER
UX 221
**UX 222 Pg 18/2  18/3
UX 240

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering!

#109

			*	*	*

CONNOVER, REV. WILLIAM
Posted by David Hall on August 09, 2003 at 14:13:14:

This character apperas in ncanny X-Men (and bts in 232) 233 and 234, as well as in X-Men Brood: Days of Wrath, and then in the Punisher issues, already listed in the MCP.  I propse the listing be amended to read:

CONNOVER, REV. WILLIAM
UX 232 - BTS
UX 233
UX 234
Brood 1
Brood 2
PUN3 12-FB
PUN3 13
PUN3 14
PUN3 15
PUN3 16

			*	*	*

Trask/Simon Trask
Posted by David Hall on August 09, 2003 at 14:28:49:

Trask and Simon Trask are the same character. (They are both leading Humanity's Last Stand) I propose that their listings be amalgamated.

Trask, Simon
Uncanny X-Men Annual '95
PUN3 12-FB
PUN3 15
PUN3 16
PUN3 17-FB

			*	*	*

Wolverine Annual 1999 First story
Posted by david Hall on August 09, 2003 at 16:44:08:

The first story in this annual was left out of wolverine chronology (but not the second story.)

I have it listed beween Wolverine #138 and #139, though I'm not too sure where it occurs for Deadpool chronology.

Wolverine
----------
W2 138
W '99
W2 139

			*	*	*

Re: Wolverine Annual 1999 First story
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 09, 2003 at 18:27:38:
In Reply to: Wolverine Annual 1999 First story
posted by david Hall on August 09, 2003 at 16:44:08:

I'm tempted not to place anything between W2 138 and 139 given the appearance of full moons.  Can you give me details about W '99 (and '99/2 for that matter)?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Wolverine Annual 1999 First story
Posted by Jeph! on August 09, 2003 at 23:31:24:
In Reply to: Re: Wolverine Annual 1999 First story
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 09, 2003 at 18:27:38:

> I'm tempted not to place anything between W2 138 and 139 given the appearance of full moons.

There's a better reason -- in W2 #138, Wolvie shatters his claws defending the prison planet from Galactus, and in #139 they still haven't grown back.

> Can you give me details about W '99 (and '99/2 for that matter)?

The first story in this issue features Wolvie and Deadpool meeting up to fight a werewolf novelist, essentially.  Which means there's likely a full moon SOMEWHERE in the background art.

A footnote says that the issue occurs before X-Men #90 (meaning, before Logan was kidnapped and replaced with a Skrull, which technically would mean before Uncanny #368), but Wolvie's claws are portrayed as METAL the entire issue -- which would place it after X-Men #98, the end of the "Twelve" arc.

In terms of Wolvie's appearances, I have this placed between X-Men #98 and Uncanny #379.

(I also have the second stories from X-Men Unlimited #25 and #26 placed in this gap, which I've designated as "the spot just after Wolvie gets back to normal" -- after all, from X-Men #88 to #98, he was out of commission as far as guest appearances go.)

I'm not sure where this issue would fall in Deadpool's chronology relative to this, unfortunately.  I think DP3 #27 (a previous Wolvie guest shot) is mentioned.

As for Wolverine @'99's second story?  Well, crap, it's not in my notes.  From memory, then, this is a story that was supposed to go in an unpublished issue of "Shadows & Light".  Wolverine is playing poker with several buddies, when they send him on a beer run and he ends up fighting ninjas and a dragon.

The placement of THIS story should likely defer to chronology of the buddies -- and I can't remember them off the top of my head.  Nick Fury, She-Hulk, the Thing, that sort of thing ... Wolvie's poker pals.  Also I'm not sure if Wolvie has metal or bone claws in this story.  I'll check again later when I can -- hopefully it's already in its correct spot in the MCP, though.

Hope that helped, Paul.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Wolverine Annual 1999 First story
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 10, 2003 at 08:50:57:
In Reply to: Re: Wolverine Annual 1999 First story
posted by Jeph! on August 09, 2003 at 23:31:24:

The MCP has the following order:

X 84
W '99/2
XU 25/2
W2 133

Is this order a problem?

> Hope that helped, Paul.

Yes indeed.  Thanks much, Jeph.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Alias #25 flashback
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 09, 2003 at 20:36:43:

I have some observations Id like to share about the chronological placement of the second flashback in ALIAS #25 to see if folks agree...

Here are the placement clues I noticed:

1) It is eight months after the first flashback in this issue, and both flashbacks occur a few years (interpreted liberally) before ALIAS 25. 

2) The newspaper reads Daredevil Saves City.  This may be a reference to an unpublished story, but it would be better to link it to one that has seen print.

3) Two quinjets are returning to Avengers Mansion from a mission; one carries the Avengers and one the Defenders.  This particular team-up story has never seen print.

4) The Avengers include Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Scarlet Witch, Vision (noted as Wandas husband), and Ms. Marvel.  The appearance of Ms. Marvel is the most helpful for placement.  Her association with the Avengers and her black and yellow costume place this flashback somewhere between A@ 8 (her first Avengers appearance with the new costume) and A 194 (the start of the Marcus storyline that leads to her departure from the team).

5) The Defenders consist of Dr. Strange, Namor, Hulk, Silver Surfer, and Valkyrie.  The Surfers active involvement with the Defenders was limited to certain periods, but he simply may have been called in to deal with whatever mission is referenced here.  Valkyrie presents a problem, though.  She appears in her original Wagneresque costume, BUT for the entire time Ms. Marvel was an Avenger, Valkyrie was wearing her white and gold costume.  Argh.  Maybe now is the time to break out that old excuse, the regular costume was in the wash.  We do know that Val had ready access to the old costume, since later, in DEF 189, Patsy asks Val to wear it to her mothers funeral.

IF we accept that Val switched back to her old costume temporarily for this mission, that the Surfer was called in from inactive status in the Defenders, and that Carol Danvers is either an official or not-yet-official Avenger, then wed need to look for a Daredevil story from this time period that would fit the newspaper headline.  The only DD story that might end with DD saving the city at this time is DD 158.  I dont have that issue, but can someone tell me if DD does save New York in that issue?

Of course, I could wait for more clues in the next issue of Alias (such as more characters appearing  maybe Beast, Wonder Man, Nighthawk, or Hellcat), but you know me...

Any thoughts?

Paul

			*	*	*

YELLOWJACKET II | MUTANT X-VERSE
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 09, 2003 at 22:21:51:

Just noticed this listing:

YELLOWJACKET II | MUTANT X-VERSE
MX '99
MX '01
MX 32

Is this a counterpart of Rita DeMara, the other Yellowjacket II?  If so, did anything significant happen in any of her appearances?

- SK

			*	*	*

Re: YELLOWJACKET II | MUTANT X-VERSE
Posted by Jeph! on August 09, 2003 at 23:04:25:
In Reply to: YELLOWJACKET II | MUTANT X-VERSE
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 09, 2003 at 22:21:51:

> Is this a counterpart of Rita DeMara, the other Yellowjacket II?

It's a female Yellowjacket, but that's all the confirmation we ever got.

> If so, did anything significant happen in any of her appearances?

Well, she switched from the Avengers to the Defenders in MX '99, was killed in MX '01, and her corpse was seen lying around in MX #32.  So no, not really.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Closing the gap... ???
Posted by Adric on August 09, 2003 at 23:57:26:

I love the site and wanted to help out.  I have two questions regarding the gap.

I've noticed some issues that are in the gab (they were published in 1993/4 their character apperances arent listed, example XU 3) but they don't show up in the list of issues (http://www.chronologyproject.com/gap2/index.html).  Does this mean they already have all the information they need on that issue?  Or is this an oversight, Should I e-mail someone?

I wanted to help out closing the gap but wasn't too sure how, so I followed the suggestion of "trying one issue" and I did, but didn't get a reply, nor am I shown as "contributing" for that issue.  Should I be concerned?  Maybe whoever updates these things does them all at once every so often?

			*	*	*

Re: Closing the gap... ???
Posted by Administrator on August 10, 2003 at 01:37:04:
In Reply to: Closing the gap... ???
posted by Adric on August 09, 2003 at 23:57:26:

> I've noticed some issues that are in the gab (they were published in 1993/4 their character apperances arent listed, example XU 3) but they don't show up in the list of issues (http://www.chronologyproject.com/gap2/index.html).  Does this mean they already have all the information they need on that issue?  Or is this an oversight, Should I e-mail someone?

It sounds like you're confusing the two gaps. The first gap consists of books published in 1993-94. We're not seeking help on those books right now, as I have, I think, all of them. That's why you won't find XU 3 on the Closing the Gap page, which is asking for help on books published in oh, around 1996 or so.

> I wanted to help out closing the gap but wasn't too sure how, so I followed the suggestion of "trying one issue" and I did, but didn't get a reply, nor am I shown as "contributing" for that issue.  Should I be concerned?  Maybe whoever updates these things does them all at once every so often?

Yes, I do. Last week, we added several analyses that were first sent to me a long time ago (I'm too ashamed to say exactly how long, but ask Jesse Lee Herndon), and this weekend, we'll post another update that'll catch us up to about March of this year.

Having said that, I don't have any contributions from you in my email archive, and there's only one other post from you on the Posting Board. Which issue did you contribute, Adric? I'll be glad to add them.

			*	*	*

Re: Closing the gap... ???
Posted by Adric on August 10, 2003 at 13:58:40:
In Reply to: Re: Closing the gap... ???
posted by Administrator on August 10, 2003 at 01:37:04:

Ahh, two Gaps.  OK I got it.

I probably e-mailed it using a different name.  I'm not gonna worry too much about it.

			*	*	*

Re: Closing the gap... ???
Posted by Anonymous on August 16, 2003 at 22:04:05:
In Reply to: Re: Closing the gap... ???
posted by Administrator on August 10, 2003 at 01:37:04:

> It sounds like you're confusing the two gaps. The first gap consists of books published in 1993-94. We're not seeking help on those books right now, as I have, I think, all of them. That's why you won't find XU 3 on the Closing the Gap page, which is asking for help on books published in oh, around 1996 or so.

It would probably help if that section wasn't called "Closing THE Gap" - especially since that particular gap isn't THE gap...

			*	*	*

Jeph and Current Books: or, why don't he post any more?
Posted by Jeph! on August 10, 2003 at 01:41:33:

I've been meaning to post about this for a while now, but Paul B.'s recent thread about which of us is covering which series reminded me...

Over the last few months, I have sadly phased out the purchase of monthly comics.  Money issues combined with Marvel's huge TPB push has finally swayed me: I am now buying 90% of my comics online, pre-ordering at 35% off, in trade paperback form only.  And soon it'll be 100%.

Basically, what this means to the MCP is that I can no longer weigh in with instant responses to current issues.  Everyone loves watching Paul B. and I wrestling around with times and days ("Wednesday!" "No, Friday!"), but I won't be able to offer this level of precision anymore, not on recent issues.

I'll still be able to weigh in on the series I collect (which is every single X-book), with nicely detailed comments and arguments -- but not until two to six weeks *after* the TPB version of the comics hits stores.

Currently I buy New X-Men, Weapon X, and Wolverine (and Savage Dragon!) monthly, but I suspect I'll be phasing that out as each book hits the end of an arc ... and I may be picking up X-Treme X-Men monthly again if the TPBs continue the annoying practice of leaving out page one of each issue ... but that's it.  Every other book, I'm waiting for the trade.

I'm sure that, when I eventually manage to give my analyses of the books, Russ and Paul will consider my input equally, even though it's several months old -- but I apologize for anyone who's taken to relying on me for instant answers and insight.

I'll still be able to help the MCP with old issues, though -- possibly with renewed focus, too, since I won't be getting distracted by shiny new books once a week.  Hey, maybe I can finish my write-ups of "Super Spider-Man" and "Gambit" v3, and finally post my interlocking X-timeline covering X-Men #62-98!

We'll see ... in any case, I'm not dropping out or fading away from the MCP, just changing my area of focus.  And Paul, expext me to grapple with you about the days of the week in "Uncanny X-Men" once every six months from now on.  :-)

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Jeph and Current Books: or, why don't he post any more?
Posted by Administrator on August 10, 2003 at 03:04:12:
In Reply to: Jeph and Current Books: or, why don't he post any more?
posted by Jeph! on August 10, 2003 at 01:41:33:

> I'm sure that, when I eventually manage to give my analyses of the books, Russ and Paul will consider my input equally, even though it's several months old -- but I apologize for anyone who's taken to relying on me for instant answers and insight.

As you yourself have often stressed, many times we need to wait several months before making a decision, anyway.

> I'll still be able to help the MCP with old issues, though -- possibly with renewed focus, too, since I won't be getting distracted by shiny new books once a week.  Hey, maybe I can finish my write-ups of "Super Spider-Man" and "Gambit" v3, 

With bated breath...

			*	*	*

Re: Jeph and Current Books: or, why don't he post any more?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 10, 2003 at 09:04:14:
In Reply to: Jeph and Current Books: or, why don't he post any more?
posted by Jeph! on August 10, 2003 at 01:41:33:

> We'll see ... in any case, I'm not dropping out or fading away from the MCP, just changing my area of focus.  And Paul, expext me to grapple with you about the days of the week in "Uncanny X-Men" once every six months from now on.  :-)

Not a problem, Jeph.  I'll reserve a spot for Wolverine for you (and I'll expect you to scrutinize my arrangement of X-titles when new editions of the calendar are prepared).  Like Russ says, we don't expect monthly updates, but rather contributions covering several months so story arcs can be treated as wholes and we have the added benefit of a little hindsight.  There may be cases in which knowledge of what's going on in current books will be helpful, but we can rely on the posting board for that.

If you do have info on my missing past issues of Wolverine and Agent X, though, it would be great if you would contribute those.

Thanks for all your past and future work, Jeph.  Much appreciated!

--Paul

			*	*	*

Early Spider-Man  &  Daredevil chronology
Posted by RLG on August 10, 2003 at 09:42:24:

  Spect.Spider-Man(v1)#1 & Daredevil(v1)#42 occur basically at the same time.  In DD#42, the Jester forges an alliance w/ Richard Railegh, who by the end of the issue is found dead in his office.  Railegh's death occurs in SS-M#1 and by the end of that issue, his body has been discovered by the police. Also, due to various sub-plots, SS-M#1 & Amazing Spider-Man(v1)#59 must intertwine.

  Both Spidey and DD appear in Fantastic Four(v1)#73 (along with Thor) during this time period.  FF#73 happens right after DD#38, thus BEFORE "Railegh" affair.  Spidey's FF#73 appearance is given as occuring AFTER the "Railegh" affair.  Falling on the side of the intended DD/FF cross-over, I suggest the following:

SPIDER-MAN (revised)
ASM(v1)#58 (end) - Peter decides to check in on Aunt  May, not knowning she is in the hopsital.
FF(v1)#73 - aids Thor and DD against the FF (still unaware Aunt May is hosptialized.)
ASM(v1)#59(p1-4)- Spidey, on his way to the hospital, runs into the police.  His assertion that "Nothing's gonna stop me from reaching Aunt May.." could be in reference to the pointless battle with the FF.  Also, on page 2, panel 4, the Baxter Building looms in the background as Spidey webs up the police.

  My guess is, in the aftermath of the battle, he uses the FF's telephone and is able to track down his Aunt's whereabouts.  I realize my theory goes up against both the ASM & FF index, but what do you think?

			*	*	*

Re: Early Spider-Man  &  Daredevil chronology
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 10, 2003 at 17:41:50:
In Reply to: Early Spider-Man  &  Daredevil chronology
posted by RLG on August 10, 2003 at 09:42:24:

>   Spect.Spider-Man(v1)#1 & Daredevil(v1)#42 occur basically at the same time.  In DD#42, the Jester forges an alliance w/ Richard Railegh, who by the end of the issue is found dead in his office.  Railegh's death occurs in SS-M#1 and by the end of that issue, his body has been discovered by the police. Also, due to various sub-plots, SS-M#1 & Amazing Spider-Man(v1)#59 must intertwine.

>   Both Spidey and DD appear in Fantastic Four(v1)#73 (along with Thor) during this time period.  FF#73 happens right after DD#38, thus BEFORE "Railegh" affair.  Spidey's FF#73 appearance is given as occuring AFTER the "Railegh" affair.  Falling on the side of the intended DD/FF cross-over, I suggest the following:

> SPIDER-MAN (revised)
> ASM(v1)#58 (end) - Peter decides to check in on Aunt  May, not knowning she is in the hopsital.
> FF(v1)#73 - aids Thor and DD against the FF (still unaware Aunt May is hosptialized.)
> ASM(v1)#59(p1-4)- Spidey, on his way to the hospital, runs into the police.  His assertion that "Nothing's gonna stop me from reaching Aunt May.." could be in reference to the pointless battle with the FF.  Also, on page 2, panel 4, the Baxter Building looms in the background as Spidey webs up the police.

>   My guess is, in the aftermath of the battle, he uses the FF's telephone and is able to track down his Aunt's whereabouts.  I realize my theory goes up against both the ASM & FF index, but what do you think?

You're right.  The Official Marvel Index to the FF is incorrect about Spidey's before and after appearances in the entry for FF 73.

My theory is slightly different, though, but I confess to not working with the actual comics involved, just the indexes.

I've seen FF 38 as occurring after Peter's visit with Aunt May in the hospital at the beginning of ASM 59 and before the intertwined story of SPECSM 1 and the rest of ASM 59.  In other words, ASM 59 follows right from ASM 58 and I have a gap between the hospital scene in ASM 59 and the rest of that issue.

And, actually, it would be helpful to have a chronological list of page/panel ranges that shows the interplay between SPECSM 1 and pages 4-12 of ASM 59, if anyone's up for providing it...

--Paul

			*	*	*

P.S.
Posted by RLG on August 10, 2003 at 09:48:23:

 If you couldn't tell already, I cast my vote for a calendar starting with FF#1.  Although, I can't help out with current titles, I might be able to assist with some 1960's thru 1980's titles. 

			*	*	*

Chronology review: Elektra vol 2 #7-22
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 10, 2003 at 10:04:45:

This covers the Greg Rucka run, which ought to be relatively self-contained - after "Unemployment", it's hard to see much scope for Elektra to make guest appearances during this material.

After this we're onto the Robert Rodi material, but we can wait for a bit before getting onto that - he's still in the course of his first storyline.

SECOND STORY ARC
ELEKTRA #7 (March 2002) by Greg Rucka and Chuck Austen
ELEKTRA #8 (April 2002) by Rucka and Austen
ELEKTRA #9 (May 2002) by Rucka and Joe Bennett

GENERAL COMMENTS:
Another untitled storyline.  Nice and linear this time, though.  No references to how much time has passed since the previous issue.  The story itself is a bit of a sprawl, as you'll see; issue #8 appears to span several weeks.

SYNOPSIS:
ELEKTRA #7, pp1-7.  An island in the Sea of Crete, "approximately 200km south-east of Athens."  Night.  Chris Olson arrives in a boat and is brought to the home of Ione Katamides.  Olson gives Ione the contact details for Elektra, in exchange for money.  After Olson leaves, Ione instructs her aides to place the appropriate coded advert in the press.

Characters appearing: Chris Olson, Ione Katamides, Tedre and Megaera (the aides)

[There are leaves on the trees.]

ELEKTRA #7, pp8-9.  Miltini, Turkey.  Night.  In a bar, Olson reports back to Jean Valence, an agent of Interpol.  Olson reluctantly hands over the money that Ione gave him.

Characters appearing: Chris Olson, Jean Valence.

[Olson comments that he thinks "they'll start trolling for Elektra in tomorrow's papers."  Presumably it's after midnight and he's referring to the next day's papers, since he's reporting back on events which have apparently just happened, and there wouldn't be time for Ione to get her advert in the papers that quickly.]

ELEKTRA #7, pp10-11.  Elektra arrives in Los Angeles on a flight from London, and takes a taxi to the Beverly Hilton.  She sees Ione's advert in the Los Angeles Times.

Characters appearing: Elektra.

[In the first scene, Ione instructed that the adverts were to run at least a week, so it's hard to say how long the advert has been running.  There are no dates visible on the paper.]

ELEKTRA #7, pp12-15.  At Ione's home, Ione, Tedre and Megaera see Elektra's own advert in response.  Ione despatches Megaera to make contact with Elektra.

Characters appearing: Ione, Tedre and Megaera.

[Long enough after the previous scene for Elektra to place her response in the newspaper - clearly shown as the Los Angeles something-or-other - and for a copy to reach Ione in Greece.  Presumably a couple of days, then.]

ELEKTRA #7, pp.16-19.  In Athens, Megaera makes contact with Elektra over a payphone.  Elektra insists on a deposit.  The call is monitored by an Echelon station in Trikala, Greece, where Valance and Olson are present.  Valance concludes that Elektra will demand to meet Ione in person.  As Ione is mentally ill and will not leave her island, the meeting will have to take place there.  Valance despatches Olson back to Athens to monitor traffic to the island.  Olson does not want to get involved with Elektra, but Valance threatens manslaughter charges for past misdemeanours in Thailand if Olson refuses.

Characters appearing: Elektra (voice only), Megaera, Olson, Valance.

[Presumably the same night as the previous scene, given Ione's insistence on making contact.]

ELEKTRA #7, pp20-22; ELEKTRA #8, pp1-7.  Athens again.  From an apartment, Olson watches the docks through binoculars.  He sees Megaera pick up Elektra in her boat, and then finds that he's been locked into the room.  Elektra arrives on Ione's island and meets her.  Ione hires Elektra to capture four men who raped her ten years ago - Terry James, Andrew Miller, Richard Burkiss and Ramon Carrejo - and bring them to her island so that she can take her revenge.  Elektra accepts the deposit payment and says that she will bring them to the island in (or possibly within) "one month."  Elektra returns by boat to the Athens docks, where Valance, Olson and some Interpol agents are waiting for her.  Naturally, she gets past them without any problems and disappears.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Megaera, Tedre, Ione, Olson, Valance.

[Long enough after the previous story for Elektra to come to Athens and for Olson, Valance and Interpol to set up their sting.]

ELEKTRA #8, pp8-9.  Los Angeles.  Elektra attacks Andy Miller, a corrupt police officer, and captures him.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Andy Miller.

[No time references.]

ELEKTRA #8, p10.  Presumably Athens.  Olson and Valance continue to argue about Elektra.  Olson heads downstairs to the bar.  A drink or so later, he is joined at the bar by Megaera.  Megaera says that she was sent by Elektra, not Ione.  Elektra wishes to propose a deal.

Characters appearing: Olson, Valance, Megaera.

[No time references.]

ELEKTRA #8, p11-12.  Chicago.  Elektra attacks Ramon Carrejo in his apartment and knocks him out.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Ramon Carrejo.

[No time references]

ELEKTRA #8, pp13-14.  A Greek harbour.  Megaera and Tedre pick up a crate which Elektra has sent to Ione, containing Miller and Carrejo.

Characters appearing: Megaera, Tedre, Miller, Carrejo

[No time references; it's unclear where the crate was shipped from, although the journey evidently wasn't long enough to be life-threatening.]

ELEKTRA #8, pp15-16.  Houston.  Elektra attacks Terry James at a business convention and captures him.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Terry James.

[No time references.]

ELEKTRA #8, pp17-18.  Manhattan.  Elektra breaks into Richard Burkiss's apartment and captures him.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Richard Burkiss.

[The clock in Burkiss' apartment says 12.15 at night; otherwise, no time references]

ELEKTRA #8, pp.19-21, ELEKTRA #9.  Elektra arrives at Ione's home with James and Burkiss.  Ione tells Tedre and Megaera to prepare the four captives.  Ione offers Elektra four million dollars to torture and kill the captives.  Ione gives her account of how the men raped her.  Elektra refuses to torture the men, saying that she is "an assassin, not a sadist."  Ione appeals to Elektra to seek vengeance.  Meanwhile, Olson tells Valance that he has an informer who knows where Elektra will be next.

Back on the island, Elektra watches Ione preparing to torture the men herself.  Elektra and Megaera discuss their side plan.

In Athens, Olson leads Valance to meet his "informer."  Once they are in the apartment, Valance is attacked by Olson and Megaera.  They drug Valance and fabricate photos of him in compromsing positions.  The plan is that Olson and Megaera get copies for their own use, and Elektra receives a set as well (which she will presumably use to blackmail Valance into keeping Interpol off her back).

Elektra continues to monitor the torture and evidently believes Carrejo's claim that he was not involved, but rather lacked the courage to intervene.  She insists on freeing Carrejo and taking him away from the island with her.  She leaves the others to Ione's torture.  The end.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Ione, Megaera, Tedre, James, Burkiss, Miller, Carrejo, Olson, Valance.

[It is daylight when Elektra arrives.  The light fades into sunset as the story continues.  There is a continuity glitch between issues #8-9 where the captives go from naked to clothed, but this appears to be due to the change of artist.  The flow of the scene implies a direct continuation.]

===========

UNEMPLOYMENT
ELEKTRA #10 (July 2002) by Greg Rucka and Joe Bennett
GENERAL COMMENTS:
This is a self-contained story which also acts as the springboard for the next arc, by removing Elektra's source of work.

SYNOPSIS:
ELEKTRA #10: Elektra arrives in New York and checks into her regular hotel under a pseudonym.  She goes to meet with the contractor who normally provides her with work.  The contractor refuses to give Elektra any more work because she is drawing too much attention and will endanger other members of the community.  Elektra protests this decision, but before the conversation can be taken much further, the contractor is shot dead by a sniper.  Elektra leaves.

Characters appearing: Elektra

[The entire story takes place in one day.]

===========

INTROSPECT, parts 1-5
ELEKTRA #11 (August 2002) by Greg Rucka, Carlo Pagulayan and Danny Miki
ELEKTRA #12 (September 2002) by Rucka, Pagulayan and Miki
ELEKTRA #13 (October 2002) by Rucka, Pagulayan and Miki
ELEKTRA #14 (November 2002) by Rucka, Pagulayan and Miki
ELEKTRA #15 (December 2002) by Rucka, Pagulayan and Miki

GENERAL COMMENTS:
"Introspect" kicks off the story arc which runs through the remainder of Greg Rucka's run.  Throughout this period Elektra is dragged away from her "assassin" status quo, which she finally reverts to after Rucka's run is complete.  Accordingly, guest appearances by Elektra during this period should be approached with care.

Issue #11 is nonlinear but the remainder is straightforward.

SYNOPSIS:

ELEKTRA #11, pp3-4.  New York, day.  Elektra buys some papers, scours the classified ads, but finds nobody trying to contact her.

Characters appearing: Elektra

[This is "one month ago", relative to the opening scene - in other words, the events of issue #11 span a month.]

ELEKTRA #11, pp5-6.  Miami.  Elektra checks her e-mail in a cybercafe, but has no messages.  The lack of work is starting to make her antsy.

Characters appearing: Elektra

["Three weeks ago", and thus a week after the previous scene.]

ELEKTRA #11, pp7-10.  Rio de Janeiro.  Elektra sits in a hotel room in costume, with nothing to do.  She desultorily practices with her sai, destroys a sofa out of frustration, and breaks down in tears, crying that she wants work.  She finally receives an e-mail, but it's spam, so she smashes her laptop.

Characters appearing: Elektra

["Two weeks ago", and thus a week after the previous scene.]

ELEKTRA #11, pp11-14.  Paris.  Elektra visits one of her arms suppliers, Claude, and asks for work.  By this point Elektra is visibly upset.  Claude politely explains that he is only an arms dealer and has never acted as a contractor.  She thanks him for his time and leaves.

Characters appearing: Elektra

["Twelve days ago".]

ELEKTRA #11, p15pn1.  Prague.  Another of Elektra's contacts declines to give her work.

Characters appearing: Elektra

["Nine days ago."]

ELEKTRA #11, p15pn2.  St Petersburg.  Another contact declines to give Elektra work and tells her to leave - he is afraid to be seen with her.

Characters appearing: Elektra

["Eight days ago."]

ELEKTRA #11, p15pn3.  Kyoto.  Another contact says he has no work and "even if I did... I sure as hell wouldn't hand it to you right now."

Characters appearing: Elektra

["Seven days ago."]

ELEKTRA #11, p15pn4.  Sydney.  A contact expresses concern for Elektra's mental health.

Characters appearing: Elektra

["Six days ago."]

ELEKTRA #11, p15pn5 to p18.  Seattle.  Another contact says he wouldn't trust Elektra with "that kind of work" even if he had it, and advises her to "go back on whatever it was you were taking" or get psychiatric help.  By this stage Elektra is visibly distressed and clawing at herself in public.  Elektra leaves the restaurant and wanders around, eventually stumbling upon a martial arts class.  She goes in and pleads with the sensei to fight her.  He takes it as a request to spar and accepts the challenge; she proceeds to badly injure him and asks for more.  Unsatisfied, Elektra leaves.  She is watched by a man - Phillip Carson - who phones his employer, Jeremy Locke, to report that he has found Elektra.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Carson, Locke (b/s)

["Five days ago."]

ELEKTRA #11, pp1-3, 19-21; ELEKTRA #12, pp1-21.  Los Angeles, night.  Elektra goes into a dodgy underworld bar.  She is wearing the tattered remnants of her costume and the customers assume she is a lost junkie.  She starts a fight and apparently kills everyone in the room.  Still dissatisfied, Elektra is about to kill herself when Carson and Locke arrive to stop her.  They drug her up and take her back to Locke's home.  There, Elektra is tied up, drugged, and forced to watch footage of her past killings, in an attempt to brainwash her into breaking her behaviour patterns.  In the course of this, Carson explains that Elektra killed his lover.  Elektra appears to be on the verge of a breakdown by this point.  Locke tells Elektra that Carson will drug her, dump her in the Mojave Desert, and then leave her there.  Locke is not prepared to kill Elektra himself but hopes that he has successfully driven her to suicide.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Carson, Locke.

["Tonight."  The entire segment appears to run through to the next day.  The recap page in issue #13 says that Elektra was held "for 24 hours."]

ELEKTRA #12, p22.  Carson dumps Elektra in the desert, with her costume and sai.

Characters appearing: Carson, Elektra.

[According to Locke in the previous scene, "Mr Carson is going to give you another shot of that dose... it'll put you out until tomorrow night.  Then he's going to take you out to the Mojave and then he's going to let you go."  In fact, this scene is in daylight and Elektra is conscious when she's dumped from the car (although she's in shackles and not resisting).  The recap page in issue #13 says that this is dawn ("the first harsh rays of the desert sun").]

ELEKTRA #13 pp1-20.  The Mojave desert.  Night, fading into dawn; Elektra staggers through the desert.  Carson returns to Locke's house and reports that he has released Elektra as planned.  Locke is also visited by his supposed allies - Liam Fischer, Nolan Kurtis and Valeriy Vasson - who also want revenge on Elektra.  Locke was supposed to be helping to kill Elektra.  They are furious that he has let her go.  Out in the desert, Elektra hallucinates about her father and collapses.  Locke tells Fischer, Kurtis and Vasson where Elektra was dropped off.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Carson, Locke, Fischer, Kurtis, Vasson

[Evidently the day after issue #12, p22.  The scenes span from dawn till dusk.]

ELEKTRA #13, pp21-22.  The Mojave desert; night again.  Fischer, Kurtis and Vasson head into the desert, and communicate by radio with their soldiers.  The soldiers have found Elektra where she collapsed earlier in the issue.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Fischer, Kurtis, Vasson

[The night after the previous scene.  It must be nearly dawn, because the sun is rising in the first scene of issue #14, where Fischer says that "my boys radioed 'bout five miuntes ago" to report that they had found her.]

ELEKTRA #14.  Fischer, Kurtis and Vasson head to Elektra's location, and find that she has already killed the four soldiers who found her.  Elektra fights the three coalition members and their back-up soldiers.  She kills everyone except Vasson, whom she sets free.  As night falls, Elektra returns to Locke's home and enters his bedroom.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Carson, Locke, Fischer, Kurtis, Vasson.

[Continuing directly from issue #13 and covering from dawn to dusk; in other words, the day following the bulk of issue #13.  In fact, issue #18 establishes that Kurtis also survived this fight, albeit injured.]

ELEKTRA #15.  Elektra wakes Locke.  She assumes that he sent the soldiers after her and accuses him of lying.  She threatens to kill him.  Locke manages to persuade her that he was not to blame, and was trying to help her break out of her behaviour.  Carson comes in and threatens Elektra with a gun; she threatens to kill Locke and encourages Carson to kill her.  Carson and Locke refuse to kill her.  Elektra gives up and Locke tells Carson to take her to the guest room for the night.  Carson cautions Elektra that he does not share Locke's faith that she can be reformed.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Carson, Locke

[Continuing directly from issue #14 and lasting an hour or so on the same night.]

=============

STANDING OUTSIDE THE TEMPLE IN THE RAIN
ELEKTRA #16 (January 2003) by Greg Rucka, Joe Bennett and Danny Miki
ELEKTRA #17 (February 2003) by Rucka and Bennett

GENERAL COMMENTS:
Pretty straightforward, this one.  There's no explicit statement of how much time it's been since the last storyline, but presumably it hasn't been long.  Elektra at least appears to be back to normal.  Since her costume was wrecked in the last storyline, and she doesn't have access to a spare, she wears black clothes in this arc instead.

SYNOPSIS:

ELEKTRA #16: Carson persuades his contact Drake, a sensei in South Central LA, to meet with Elektra.  Elektra is taken to Drake's home and they spar.  Drake defeats Elektra, and damages and confiscates her sai.  Elektra asks Drake to teach her; Drake refuses and tells her to get out of her home.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Drake, Carson, Locke

[One day.  According to Drake, it's Wednesday.]

ELEKTRA #17 pp1-3: Elektra, Carson and Locke leave Drake's home.  Elektra refuses to go and insists on waiting outside.  Carson and Locke leave her there, despite Locke's protests.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Carson, Locke

[Continuing directly from the previous issue.  It's now dark - they were in Drake's home for several hours - so this is the night of Wednesday/Thursday.]

ELEKTRA #17, pp4-9: Elektra continues to wait outside Drake's temple while Drake goes about her business.  A montage sequence that runs from sunrise to sunset.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Drake

[Passers-by who know Drake haven't seen Elektra outside the temple before, so this is presumably Thursday.]

ELEKTRA #17, pp10-23: More of Elektra waiting outside the temple.  Finally she is about to give up and, before going home, plays soccer with some of the local kids.  Drake decides that she is now ready to be accepted as a student, and invites her in.

[Again, this covers a whole day from sunrise to sunset.  It's presumably Friday, although in theory there might be more days not shown.]

============

EVERYTHING OLD IS NEW AGAIN
ELEKTRA #18 (February 2003) by Greg Rucka, Carlo Pagulayan, Danny Miki & Victor Olazaba
ELEKTRA #19 (February 2003) by Rucka and Carlos Meglia
ELEKTRA #20 (March 2003) by Rucka and Meglia
ELEKTRA #21 (June 2003 [sic]) by Rucka, Pagulayan, Miki and Olazaba
ELEKTRA #22 (June 2003) by Rucka, Pagulayan, Miki, Olazaba and Nelson DeCastro

GENERAL COMMENTS:
The end of Rucka's run is marred by two issues abysmally drawn by Carlos Meglia, whose art is notable primarily for its total disregard for established character designs - for example, his version of Locke is not merely confined to a wheelchair, but a drooling paraplegic.  Anything purely visual in his issues is best ignored.

Notably, this story is structured so as to show the sunrise and sunset of every day; this happens so consistently that it must be a conscious decision.  It tends to suggest that there are no missing days in the middle.

SYNOPSIS
ELEKTRA #18, pp1-2.  The Mojave Desert, daylight.  The police have finally found the bodies that Elektra left behind from the fight in issue #14.  One of the Hand agents from this arc (Shadow, Thought and Pain) wanders around unnoticed and kills a police officer.

Characters appearing: Shadow, Thought or Pain [they're impossible to tell apart]

[The bodies are visibly decayed, but still basically intact.]

ELEKTRA #18, pp3-20.  Drake's home, morning.  Elektra is up first and cleans the house.  Meanwhile, in Phoenix, Kurtis and Vasson discuss their fight with Elektra.  Vasson believes that they were set up by Locke, because he fell in love with Elektra.  Kurtis is sceptical.  One of the Hand agents turns up and says he wants to talk aobut Elektra.  Back in LA, Drake takes Elektra to clean up a vandalised playground.  As they work, Drake reveals that she was also a member of Stick's order who was kicked out.  Back in Phoenix, Shadow, Thought and Pain interrogate Kurtis and Vasson as to Elektra's whereabouts.  Thought telepathically extracts information about Locke and Carson's whereabouts, and they kill Kurtis and Vasson.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Drake, Kurtis, Vasson, Shadow, Thought, Pain

[All of this covers a single day from sunrise to sunset.  Elektra has now changed clothes.  Either Drake had some in Elektra's size - unlikely - or she must have bought them since issue #17.  That suggests that it's at least two days since issue #17.  Drake apparently hasn't been woken by Elektra with tea before, so perhaps Elektra overslept yesterday - she did spend two days outside on the pavement.  The garbage is collected; Elektra's confiscated sai is one of the items taken away.  So presumably there's only been one garbage collection since Drake confiscated the sai in issue #16.  Is anyone familiar with the schedule of the South Central LA public cleansing authorities?]

ELEKTRA #19: Dawn on Interstate 10.  Shadow, Thought and Pain steal a car to go to LA.  In LA, Drake and Elektra work in a soup kitchen.  They go back to Drake's home and spar for a bit.  Drake regales us with her origin story in an extended flashback.  As night falls, Shadow, Thought and Pain arrive outside Locke's house.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Drake, Shadow, Thought and Pain

[All of this must be the same day, since it wouldn't take the Hand two days to get to Locke's home from Interstate 10.  It was dark in Phoenix when we last saw Shadow, Thought and Pain in issue #18.  Assuming that they headed straight to LA after obtaining Carson's whereabouts, this must be dawn the next day.  Rucka's run on this title seems to have an obsession with showing the sunrise and sunset of every day, presumably an intentional piece of symbolism; dawn would be more consistent with the structure of the storyline.]

ELEKTRA #20: Sunrise at Locke's home in the Hollywood Hills.  Carson gets up and is promptly beaten up by Shadow, Thought and Pain.  They go on to attack Locke and, reading his mind, confirm that Vasson was correct - he has fallen in love with Elektra.  In LA, Drake and Elektra go for breakfast.  Drake gives Elektra a makeshift black belt and tells her that she has learnt all she needs and should now go, to finish her transformation for herself.  Elektra protests against this but eventually accedes.  They return to Drake's home, where Drake gives Elektra replacement sai (blunted, which is how they're meant to be).  Carson phones to warn Drake that the Hand are on their way.  Drake tells Elektra that she is not ready to fight them and must leave; Elektra refuses to abandon Drake.  As night falls, Shadow, Thought and Pain arrive outside, accompanied by a force of Hand ninja.  They plan to reclaim Elektra for the Hand.  Elektra and Drake are waiting to fight them.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Drake, Carson, Locke, Shadow, Thought, Pain

[The day after issue #19, and spanning the whole day.]

ELEKTRA #21, pp1-14: The big fight duly continues from the previous issue.  The Hand produce Locke as a hostage.  They tell Elektra to meet them tomorrow night in the desert where she fought the coalition's soldiers, where she will have the "opportunity to perform another [massacre]" and reclaim Locke.  The building is on fire, and Elektra and Drake have to leave.  Drake has been poisoned by a Hand weapon, and she dies.  As per Drake's request, Elektra takes her weapons.

[Continuing directly from the end of issue #20.]

Characters appearing: Elektra, Drake, Locke, Shadow, Thought, Pain.

ELEKTRA #21, pp14-21: Morning.  Locke's house; Elektra arrives to tell Carson that Drake is dead and enlist his help against the Hand.  At night, they go to the desert as requested and watch from a distance.  The Hand are indeed waiting.  Elektra, now wearing a white variant of her costume, defies Carson's warnings and heads down to confront the Hand.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Carson, Shadow, Thought, Pain.

[The night after the previous scene, as per the Hand's instructions to meet "tomorrow night."]

ELEKTRA #22: The big fight scene, taking place at night and continuing directly from the above.  In short, Elektra kills everyone on the Hand side aside from Shadow; the Hand kill Carson.  Shadow tries to use Locke as a human shield.  Elektra, reverting to type but still rejecting the Hand, runs her sword through both Locke and Shadow, and leaves as the sole survivor of the battle.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Carson, Locke, Shadow, Thought, Pain.

[Direct continuation of the previous issue.  This is the middle of the night, with no lights and a starry sky.]

			*	*	*

ASM2 36/ Wolverine 156 & 157
Posted by David Hall on August 10, 2003 at 15:08:24:

I realize (from reading some of the discusssion) why ASm2 36 is a can of worms.  Without getting into it too much, I just wanted to point out a discrepancy between the listings for Spider Man and Wolverine.

Spider Man has Asm2 36 listed before Wolverine 156 & 157, while in Wolverine's listing, asm2 36 is listed sometime after these.  I don't have a solution for you, but I wanted to point this out.

Dave

			*	*	*

Re: ASM2 36/ Wolverine 156 & 157
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 10, 2003 at 17:11:36:
In Reply to: ASM2 36/ Wolverine 156 & 157
posted by David Hall on August 10, 2003 at 15:08:24:

Don't worry about it, Dave.  ASM2 36 is covered in the calendar project we're working on.  We'll work on adjustments to chronologies as a result.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Startling Stories clarification
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 10, 2003 at 18:26:07:

In an earlier posting , Paul O. mentioned that anything published under the Startling Stories banner was, by definition, non-canon, as this is Marvel's intent.  Was this published in Comic Shop News or an interview somewhere?

I picked up the first two issues of Thing: Night Falls on Yancy Street, and I don't see anything blatently non-canon.  I just want to make sure I wouldn't be wasting my time trying to place this (perhaps between FF 125 and A 102 -- okay I did think about it a little).

--Paul

This brings up a pet peeve of mine: the recent proliferation of non-canon stories without some consistent symbol letting the reader know the contents are outside continuity.

Another pet peeve: the proliferation of covers that look like nothing more than posters.  It's tough for researchers to tell what the story is inside without plot-driven cover art.

Okay, I'll stop now...

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Startling Stories clarification
Posted by SKleefeld on August 19, 2003 at 12:11:13:
In Reply to: Startling Stories clarification
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 10, 2003 at 18:26:07:

> In an earlier posting , Paul O. mentioned that anything published under the Startling Stories banner was, by definition, non-canon, as this is Marvel's intent.  Was this published in Comic Shop News or an interview somewhere?

> I picked up the first two issues of Thing: Night Falls on Yancy Street, and I don't see anything blatently non-canon.  I just want to make sure I wouldn't be wasting my time trying to place this (perhaps between FF 125 and A 102 -- okay I did think about it a little).

Playing catch up over here at the MCP...

There are actually a handful of continuity gaffs, but I think I've worked explanations for all of them...

1) In issue one, Ben calls Sue by her maiden name, suggesting that it's prior to FF Annual #3. But that same issue also has a photo of Sue in her wedding dress. This further suggests that it's only a short time after the wedding, before Ben has gotten used to calling her Sue Richards. (For a point of reference, FF Annual #3 occurs shortly after FF #43.)

2) Johnny and Crystal are going out for a date, so it's after FF #59 but before #118. 

3) The only two times I can think of where Reed uses the Nullifier are FF #50 and FF #49v3. He threatens to use one in #212 but it was just a false one. HOWEVER, since this is just Ben's commentary, it could be assumed that either A) he's mis-remembering (this is an extension of Jack Kirby after all!) or B) there's been another instance of Reed using the Nullifier that hasn't been depicted in the comics. The latter seems more likely since Ben picks up the Nullifier out of storage -- after Galactus had taken it back in #50!

4) Sandman is already using his green togs in FF #61. The distinct implication in NFOYS #3 is that that is the first time Marko wears the outfit.

5) I don't have the issue in front of me but Sue only goes to see "Agatha", right? Not "Agatha Harkness"? Obviously, since the FF don't meet Agatha Harkness until FF #94, we're starting to run into problems. But if Franklin's nanny during this story is ALSO called Agatha, then we can still work with it.

So, without having my books in front of me, I would put this series between FF #59 and #61 and claim that the Agatha in question is NOT Ms. Harkness.

> This brings up a pet peeve of mine: the recent proliferation of non-canon stories without some consistent symbol letting the reader know the contents are outside continuity.

Part of that great responsibility we chronologists take on.  :)

> Another pet peeve: the proliferation of covers that look like nothing more than posters.  It's tough for researchers to tell what the story is inside without plot-driven cover art.

I asked Greg Horn about this last year. He would personally very much like to match his covers to the story, but he's rarely given any direction to work with. If he's lucky he gets one line like, "Elektra somewhere international."

So it's very much an editorial decision. Which, in all honesty, harkens back to the Golden Age. I mean, did Captain America even SEE Hitler in Captain America Comics #1, let alone bop him on the nose? And how many of those 1960s/70s DC books had some bizarre attention-getting cover, only to have some really contrived story to work with it? Not that I'm advocating any of this, mind you, I'm just saying there's a precedent.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Startling Stories clarification
Posted by Dimadick on August 20, 2003 at 01:35:27:
In Reply to: Re: Startling Stories clarification
posted by SKleefeld on August 19, 2003 at 12:11:13:

> So, without having my books in front of me, I would put this series between FF #59 and #61 and claim that the Agatha in question is NOT Ms. Harkness.

Does the book contain any reference to Dr. Victor Von Doom, the rest of the Inhumans or the Silver Surfer? Victor seems to have been appearing for five continuing issues from #56 till #60 with the Inhumans and the Surfer also guest-starring in them. Can the series be placed between #60 and #61?

			*	*	*

Re: Startling Stories clarification
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 20, 2003 at 21:22:58:
In Reply to: Re: Startling Stories clarification
posted by SKleefeld on August 19, 2003 at 12:11:13:

> 1) In issue one, Ben calls Sue by her maiden name, suggesting that it's prior to FF Annual #3. But that same issue also has a photo of Sue in her wedding dress. This further suggests that it's only a short time after the wedding, before Ben has gotten used to calling her Sue Richards. (For a point of reference, FF Annual #3 occurs shortly after FF #43.)

Actually, Ben refers to her as "Sue STORM, the Invisible WOMAN."  Sue was known as the Invisible Girl long after that point.  I'm inclined to ignore the reference as an error and pretend he's saying "Sue Richards, the Invisible Girl."

> 2) Johnny and Crystal are going out for a date, so it's after FF #59 but before #118. 

Johnny and Crystal terminated their romance in FF 132, when Johnny found out about Crystal and Pietro.  So the story could occur after FF 118, but must occur before Crystal finds Pietro in A 103.

> 3) The only two times I can think of where Reed uses the Nullifier are FF #50 and FF #49v3. He threatens to use one in #212 but it was just a false one. HOWEVER, since this is just Ben's commentary, it could be assumed that either A) he's mis-remembering (this is an extension of Jack Kirby after all!) or B) there's been another instance of Reed using the Nullifier that hasn't been depicted in the comics. The latter seems more likely since Ben picks up the Nullifier out of storage -- after Galactus had taken it back in #50!

I can go along with that.  There are always non-published adventures to fall back on!

> 4) Sandman is already using his green togs in FF #61. The distinct implication in NFOYS #3 is that that is the first time Marko wears the outfit.

I don't have issue #3, so I don't know the clue that implies that Sandy wears the green costume for the first time here.

> 5) I don't have the issue in front of me but Sue only goes to see "Agatha", right? Not "Agatha Harkness"? Obviously, since the FF don't meet Agatha Harkness until FF #94, we're starting to run into problems. But if Franklin's nanny during this story is ALSO called Agatha, then we can still work with it.

That may be a (pardon the pun) stretch.  If we can ignore the Sue reference, can we take on that Sandman issue rather than the Agatha reference?

Remember, Franklin wasn't even born yet at the time you want to place this story!  And it's hard to imagine the Richardses being concerned with a different woman named Agatha watching a boy named Franklin who isn't their son!

> So, without having my books in front of me, I would put this series between FF #59 and #61 and claim that the Agatha in question is NOT Ms. Harkness.

No can do, for the reason noted above.

If we can find another explanation for Sandy, does my original proposal for placement work?

--Paul

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Re: Startling Stories clarification
Posted by SKleefeld on August 21, 2003 at 08:26:42:
In Reply to: Re: Startling Stories clarification
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 20, 2003 at 21:22:58:

> > 1) In issue one, Ben calls Sue by her maiden name, suggesting that it's prior to FF Annual #3. But that same issue also has a photo of Sue in her wedding dress. This further suggests that it's only a short time after the wedding, before Ben has gotten used to calling her Sue Richards. (For a point of reference, FF Annual #3 occurs shortly after FF #43.)

> Actually, Ben refers to her as "Sue STORM, the Invisible WOMAN."  Sue was known as the Invisible Girl long after that point.  I'm inclined to ignore the reference as an error and pretend he's saying "Sue Richards, the Invisible Girl."

Good catch.

> > 2) Johnny and Crystal are going out for a date, so it's after FF #59 but before #118. 

> Johnny and Crystal terminated their romance in FF 132, when Johnny found out about Crystal and Pietro.  So the story could occur after FF 118, but must occur before Crystal finds Pietro in A 103.

Johnny did find about Crystal and Quicksilver in FF #131, but they hadn't seen each other since #118 anyway. I think Crystal even says something to that effect in the story. NFOYS has to occur prior to #118 when Crystal leaves Johnny for her family in Attilan.

> > 4) Sandman is already using his green togs in FF #61. The distinct implication in NFOYS #3 is that that is the first time Marko wears the outfit.

> I don't have issue #3, so I don't know the clue that implies that Sandy wears the green costume for the first time here.

Essentially, the Wizard provides an explanation for them that Marko was clearly not privvy to. According to NFOYS #3, Wizard suited Marko up in the green outfit because it was wired so that Wizard could remotely kill Sandy should he try to leave or double-cross the them

> > 5) I don't have the issue in front of me but Sue only goes to see "Agatha", right? Not "Agatha Harkness"? Obviously, since the FF don't meet Agatha Harkness until FF #94, we're starting to run into problems. But if Franklin's nanny during this story is ALSO called Agatha, then we can still work with it.

> That may be a (pardon the pun) stretch.  If we can ignore the Sue reference, can we take on that Sandman issue rather than the Agatha reference?

> Remember, Franklin wasn't even born yet at the time you want to place this story!  And it's hard to imagine the Richardses being concerned with a different woman named Agatha watching a boy named Franklin who isn't their son!

Ah. Yes. Right. Good point.

So what we would have to do then, is have Sandman start wearing the green outfit in FF #61, have the Wizard secretly modify it for NFOYS which then takes Sandman until FF #129 to figure out how to bypass it.

So we're looking at sometime between FF #94 and #118 and just having to use a slightly contrived explanation for Sandman's choice of outfits.

> > So, without having my books in front of me, I would put this series between FF #59 and #61 and claim that the Agatha in question is NOT Ms. Harkness.

> No can do, for the reason noted above.

> If we can find another explanation for Sandy, does my original proposal for placement work?

Nope, it still has to be before FF #118. My guess now would be between #97 and #98 to account for Johnny's excitement about seeing Crystal again. 

-- Sean

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"Hairball" on Yancy Street
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 22, 2003 at 19:26:21:
In Reply to: Re: Startling Stories clarification
posted by SKleefeld on August 21, 2003 at 08:26:42:

> Nope, it still has to be before FF #118. My guess now would be between #97 and #98 to account for Johnny's excitement about seeing Crystal again. 

I agree that it's difficult to place this story after FF 118, because of what happens to Crystal between FF 118 and 131.  But we're faced with a continuity problem if we place Night Falls on Yancy Street before FF 118: 

In issue #1 of Night Falls On Yancy Street, the Thing refers to the Beast as "the hairball."  The Beast didn't become a hairball until Amazing Adventures #11 (the summer between Peter Parker's sophomore and junior years of college), which doesn't occur until after FF 125 (the previous March).  (Dates courtesy of the Marvel Indexes.)

Can we come up with an explanation for the "hairball" reference?

--Paul

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Re: "Hairball" on Yancy Street
Posted by Jeph! on August 22, 2003 at 22:51:32:
In Reply to: "Hairball" on Yancy Street
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 22, 2003 at 19:26:21:

> In issue #1 of Night Falls On Yancy Street, the Thing refers to the Beast as "the hairball."

Is the Beast actually IN the issue?  Or just mentioned?

> Can we come up with an explanation for the "hairball" reference?

Well, he was a fairly hairy fella BEFORE his transformation, IIRC, and his costume showed off his huge hairy hands and feet.

Shrug.

-Jeph!

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Re: "Hairball" on Yancy Street
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 23, 2003 at 09:20:55:
In Reply to: Re: "Hairball" on Yancy Street
posted by Jeph! on August 22, 2003 at 22:51:32:

> > In issue #1 of Night Falls On Yancy Street, the Thing refers to the Beast as "the hairball."

> Is the Beast actually IN the issue?  Or just mentioned?

Thankfully, just mentioned.

> > Can we come up with an explanation for the "hairball" reference?<p>> Well, he was a fairly hairy fella BEFORE his transformation, IIRC, and his costume showed off his huge hairy hands and feet.

I know:  Ben was suffering from "descriptive disorder" at that time.  Referring to Sue Richards, the Invisible Girl as "Sue Storm, the Invisible Woman" and the Beast as "hairball" are symptoms  ;)

I think we'll just have to accept that Ben considered the non-mutated Hank McCoy as a "hairball," especially when you consider who Ben was used to seeing on a regular basis (Johnny Storm, for example).

--Paul

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Re: Startling Stories clarification
Posted by Andy Holcombe on September 21, 2003 at 18:26:39:
In Reply to: Re: Startling Stories clarification
posted by SKleefeld on August 19, 2003 at 12:11:13:

> > I picked up the first two issues of Thing: Night Falls on Yancy Street, and I don't see anything blatently non-canon.

Just in case anyone was wondering about the resolution of Night Falls on Yancy Street, issue four firmly puts the story in the non-canon realm with the deaths of the Frightful Four.

The Last Line of Defense one-shot though is still open for business.

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Re: Startling Stories clarification
Posted by ShadZ on September 04, 2003 at 19:38:20:
In Reply to: Startling Stories clarification
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 10, 2003 at 18:26:07:

> In an earlier posting , Paul O. mentioned that anything published under the Startling Stories banner was, by definition, non-canon, as this is Marvel's intent.  Was this published in Comic Shop News or an interview somewhere?

> I picked up the first two issues of Thing: Night Falls on Yancy Street, and I don't see anything blatently non-canon.  I just want to make sure I wouldn't be wasting my time trying to place this (perhaps between FF 125 and A 102 -- okay I did think about it a little).

Issue 4 just came out, and now we all see why the series was placed outside cannon.  By the end of the story:
S
P
O
I
L
E
R 

S 
P
A
C
E

+ The Wizard and the Trapster have both been beaten to death (maybe the Trapster survived with a broken back, but the Wizard -- no way).  

+ Large portions of the Yancy Street neighborhood (including the building where Ben grew up) have been destroyed, and innocent bystanders have died.

+ Because of that battle, the Thing has not only quit the Fantastic Four, he has become a hermit living in an abandonded amusement park.

Sure, you could try to fit it into continunity by assuming there is some untold story where Ben comes out of his funk and is reunited with the FF and Alicia (and the Wizard grows a new body or something) but it's a Startling Story... let it go

ShadZ

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X-Men 0.5
Posted by David Hall on August 10, 2003 at 18:42:34:

I noticed that X-Men 0.5 wasn't listed.

This story features Marrow, Colossus, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Storm and Shadowcat.  They are caught up in some medieval type hijinx, before they find out that the villain of the piece is Mesmero (who is causing said medieval type hijinx)and make short work of him.  It takes place in perhaps an afternoon.

Chronologically speaking this issue must occur AFTER Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Shadowcat rejoin the X-Men in X 80.

Since Gambit is not in the book, it probably occurs between X80 and UX 361.

This would require the following change to the above mentioned X-Men:

UX 360
X 80
X 0.5
UX 361

And for Mesmero:
AF2 5
X 0.5
DPOOL3 57

Dave

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Re: X-Men 0.5
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 10, 2003 at 20:04:00:
In Reply to: X-Men 0.5 
posted by David Hall on August 10, 2003 at 18:42:34:

Thanks, Dave.  Thanks to your post, I now have X 0.5 tucked in between X 80 and UX 361 on the calendar.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Chrono review of Amz.Spider-Man (v1) #59, Daredevil (v1) #39-42, & Spect.Spider-Man (v1) #1
Posted by RLG on August 11, 2003 at 18:01:09:

DAREDEVIL #39, page 1-7, panel 2
   Daredevil has his first run-in with the Unholy Three, who manage to escape, but not before Daredevil learns that they are working for the Exterminator.  Daredevil returns home to get some rest.

(DAY 1 - later the same day as DD#38 & FF#73)

AMZ.SPIDER-MAN #59, page 1-7, panel 1
   Spider-Man deals with some police who are trying to arrest him on his way to the hospital.  He reaches the hospital at 10pm, changes into his civies and visits with Aunt May.  Peter remembers the police think he has been abducted by Spider-Man and makes his way to the police station.  Peter meets Captain Stacy for the first time and returns to the Stacy's home with him.  Gwen, relieved that Peter is safe, suggests that they visit the Coffee Bean.
  At the Bean, they run into Harry, who Peter apologizes to for his recent absence.  Harry tells the couple that Mary Jane has gotten a job at the Gloom Room A-Go-Go.  The trio make vague plans to visit her one night.

(DAY 1 - starting in the 9pm hour and ending a few hours later, possibly into the early hours of DAY 2.)

DAREDEVIL #39, page 7, panel 3-page 20
   Matt arrives at the office the next morning, where Foggy is on a rant about the way Daredevil treated Debbie Harris the previous day (See DD#38.)  Matt calms him down by convincing Foggy to go public with his romance to Debbie - an ex-convict.  Matt suggests that they double-date with Debbie and Karen that night.
   Meanwhile, the Exterminator shows off his time-displacement ray to the Unholy Three.
   That night, Foggy's arrival at the Palm Club is noticed by one of the Exterminator's informants.  He sends the Unholy Three to the club to use the T-Ray on Debbie.  Should Foggy be elected DA, the villain will be able to hold Debbie and her safety over him.  The villains enter the nightclub and complete their mission as Foggy, Matt and Karen stand by helplessly.

(DAY 2 - from the morning to the evening.)

DAREDEVIL #40, page 1-15
   Later that night, Daredevil hunts down the Unholy Three, but Ape-Man zaps him with the T-Ray.  Inside the limbo-like dimension, Daredevil locates Debbie and the other victims of the T-Ray. (Note: Debbie's dress is yellow at the nightclub, but is now pink.)

(DAY 2 - late in the evening.)

DAREDEVIL #40, page 16-20
   Foggy takes matters into his own hands and goes to the library to investigate the mystery of the Exterminator's true identity.  Karen reminds him of his 5pm TV interview.  At the library, Foggy's investigation is successful.  He makes 5pm appointment.
  In the limbo-like dimension, Debbie and the other victims begin to phase back to their proper time continuum.  Soon, Daredevil is the only one left.

(DAY 3 - late morning to early evening)

DAREDEVIL #41, page 1-20
   That night, Foggy informs the media that he knows the Exterminator's identity. Foggy is captured by the Unholy Three.  Daredevil manages to escape the dimesion and returns to his house.  He finds Karen there, and has to assume his "Mike Murdock" persona. Karen tells him of Foggy's plan to draw out the Exterminator.  Daredevil hears the T-Ray's power source nearby and takes off for the villain's hideout.  Matt thinks that, if all goes as planned, he will be able to get rid of his triple identity problem.
   Daredevil crashes into the lab and knocks out the Unholy Three.  He squares off against the Exterminator and defeats him.  Daredevil shorts out the time mechanism, causing it to explode.  In the confusion, he rips off his DD logo from his costume and places it in the debris.  When Foggy comes to, he concludes that Daredevil (and thus Mike Murdock) has been killed.  With the machines distruction, Debbie returns to the proper time continuum.  Later, Matt and Karen wonder if "Mike's" death will mean the end of Daredevil.

(DAY 3 - later in the evening)

DARDEVIL #42, page 1-9
   The Jester continues his crime-spree by robbing a bank.

(DAY 3 - possibly the same time as the previous issue's battle.)

    Matt, Foggy and the girls mourn "Mike's" death.  Meanwhile, the Jester gloats over his recent successes.

(DAY 4 - I placed these events during a separate day instead of late evening on DAY 3, due largely to the change in clothes for the characters.  It is possible that it actually takes place a couple of days later, but I'm trying to keep the gap in Spider-Man's appearances to a minimum.)

DARDEVIL #42, page 10-12, page 3
  The next day, Richard Raleigh comes up with a plan to get the uncorruptable Foggy out of the DA race.  That night, Raleigh promises to, if elected Mayor, hunt the Jester down.  Later, the Jester travels to Raleigh's campaign HQ to deal with the politian, but is suprised to find Raleigh waiting for him, gun in hand.  Raleigh explains his TV comments were meant to draw the criminal out, so Raleigh could hire him to get Foggy out of the race.  The Jester takes on the job.

(Day 5 - daytime to evening.)

SPECT. SPIDER-MAN #1, page 2-15, panel 3
   Spider-Man has a run-in with the Man Monster, who is tearing down a Raleigh for Mayor billboard.  Spider-Man saves the two sign painters and the villain gets away.
   Changing into his civies, Peter runs across Harry and Mary Jane, who invite him to a Raleigh rally and dance tomorrow night.  Peter arrives at the Bugle and learns that JJ Jameson is also a Raleigh supporter.  At that moment, Raleigh is giving a speech on TV.

(Day 6 - decision based largely on Raleigh's 1st appearance to having to be in DD#42.)

SPECT.SPIDER-MAN #1, page 15, panel 4-page 28, panel 1
   Peter picks Gwen up for the dance.  At the rally, Peter's spider-sense warns him that the ceiling is about to collapse.  Unable to change into his costume, he shorts the lights out and web-repairs the ceiling under the cover of darkness.
   Raleigh learns of Spider-Man's interference, then makes his way to his basement lab where Dr.Thraxon is working on Man Monster.

(DAY 7 - evening)

SPECT.SPIDER-MAN #1, page 28, panel 2-page 37, panel 1
   The next morning, Harry and Gwen notice Peter daydreaming during class.  He lies and blames it on "Spring Fever"; in reality he is concerned that Man Monster is still on the loose.  At the Midtown Men's club, Capt.Stacy and Jameson argue about Raleigh.
   Soon, Spider-Man runs across a Raleigh fund raiser being held up and defeats the criminals.  Peter visits Aunt May, who is now back home.
   As Capt.Stacy leaves the club, he mentions to Jameson that he is investigating Raleigh's mysterious past.  Jameson arrives at the meeting with Raleigh, and lets it slip out that Capt.Stacy's investigating the politian. Once Jameson leaves, Raleigh commands the Man Monster to kill Capt.Stacy.

(DAY 8 - morning to afternoon)

AMZ.SPIDER-MAN #59, page 8, panel 2-page 9, panel 2
  At the Gloom Room, the Kingpin (under the alias of the Brainwasher) questions his men, Slade and Dr.Winkler, about the plan to brainwash various city officials at the grand opening of the nightclub.

(DAY 8 - unknown time of day, but the fact that a woman is walking her dog on the sidewalk outside the club suggests daytime.  The way the scene appears in the issue misleads the reader to think that it takes place while Harry is telling Peter and Gwen about MJ's job.)

DAREDEVIL #42, page 12, panel 4-page 15, panel 1
   The Jester corners Matt, Foggy, Karen and Debbie in the park.  Matt is shocked that the criminal would strike in broad daylight.  The Jester decides to take Matt hostage.  He tells Foggy to drop out of the DA race or he will never see Matt again.  Realizing that he will have to change into Daredevil (who is "dead") in order to escape, Matt tells his friends that "Mike" had been secretly training a replacement.

(DAY 8 - afternoon.)

SPECT.SPIDER-MAN #1, page 37, panel 2-page 43
   Peter picks up Gwen at her house.  As they leave, they spot the Man Monster crashing into her house.  Peter tells Gwen to call the police, and once he is alone, dons his costume.  Spider-Man takes on the villain and is successfull in drawing him from his intended target - Capt.Stacy.

(DAY 8 - early evening.) 

DARDEVIL #42, page 15, panel 2-page 19, panel 3
  Back at his hideout, the Jester throws Matt into a spare room.  Once inside, Matt dons his spare costume and confronts the criminal.  Learing that the Jester has a mysterious employer, Daredevil pretends to get knocked unconscious.  As the Jester leaves to visit his employer, he is unaware that Daredevil is on the car's roof-top.

(DAY 8 - evening.)

SPECT.SPIDER-MAN #1, page 44-52
  While leading Man Monster away from the Stacy's home, Spider-Man observes how enraged the villain gets whenever he spies a billboard pickture of Raleigh.  Spider-Man leads him to Raleigh's townhouse.  Once there, the Man Monster attacks and kills Raleigh and Dr.Thraxon.  Spider-Man defeats the villain and leaves the townhouse as the police and JJ Jameson arrive.

(DAY 8 - evening)

DAREDEVIL #42, page 19, panel 4-page 20
  The Jester enters the townhouse via the back entrance planning to complain that Raleigh nevrer to him he would have to deal with the likes of Daredevil.  Daredevil confronts the Jester and during the battle, Daredevil notices Raleigh's corpse on the floor.  The Jester manages to escape.

(DAY 8 - evening)

AMZ.SPIDER-MAN #59, page 9, panel 3-page 11
   Spider-Man swings around town the morning after the Kingpin's conversation with his men.  He is happy that all is well in his life, including Aunt May's inproved health.  He runs across a gang robbing a loan shop and makes quick work of them.  He decides to rest up for his date with Gwen at the Gloom Room the next night.
   Meanwhile, Slade makes sure Mary Jane knows how to use the camera he gave her to take free photos of VIP's.  She, of course, is unaware that the camera is also a hypnotic devise.

(DAY 9 - early morning.  It is possible that Peter's decision to rest up is due to the long-lasting battle with the Man Monster the previous evening.)

AMZ.SPIDER-MAN #59, page 12-20
  Peter, Gwen, and Harry arrive at the Gloom Room and are inpressed by the number of city officials present.  The spot Capt.Stacy, who has his "picture" taken by Mary Jane.  Slade's men escort the hypnotized Stacy to the back lab.
  Responding to Gwen's concern over her father's disappearance, Peter decides to investigate the rear of the building.  Donning his costume, he runs across some gun-toting hoods.  One of them grabs Mary Jane, but Spider-Man sets her free.  He makes his way to the lab and spots Capt.Stacy sitting in the brainwashing machine.  Before he can rescue Capt.Stacy, he is attacked by the Kingpin.

(DAY 10 -evening)

			*	*	*

Re: Chrono review of Amz.Spider-Man (v1) #59, Daredevil (v1) #39-42, & Spect.Spider-Man (v1) #1
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 11, 2003 at 20:19:55:
In Reply to: Chrono review of Amz.Spider-Man (v1) #59, Daredevil (v1) #39-42, & Spect.Spider-Man (v1) #1
posted by RLG on August 11, 2003 at 18:01:09:

Much obliged.  This is very helpful.

--Paul

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Calendar volunteers re-unite!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 11, 2003 at 20:26:29:

Okay, let me see if I have everyone matched with the titles for which he volunteered... And again, thanks to you all.

PAUL BOURCIER:
Amazing Spider-Man
Avengers
Captain America
Captain Marvel
Fantastic Four
Hawkeye
Human Torch
Iron Man
Mystique
New Mutants
New X-Men
Spectacular Spider-Man
Spider-Man/Wolverine
Thor
Uncanny X-Men
Weapon X
X-Men Unlimited
X-Treme X-Men
X-Statix

DREW
Venom

GARBONZO
Sentinel

ANTONIO GAVIO
Doctor Octopus: Negative Exposure
(and occasional other Spider-Man limited series)

SEAN KLEEFELD
Alias (then The Pulse?)
(occasional FF limited series?)

PAUL OBRIEN
Crew
Elektra
NYX
Silver Surfer
Thor:Vikings

DAN SPEARS
Inhumans
Runaways
Thanos

KEVIN WASSER:
Daredevil
Incredible Hulk
Punisher

JEPH YORK:
Wolverine

UP FOR GRABS:
Agent X (then Deadpool/Cable)

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Re: Calendar volunteers re-unite!
Posted by Jeph! on August 11, 2003 at 23:38:14:
In Reply to: Calendar volunteers re-unite!
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 11, 2003 at 20:26:29:

> JEPH YORK:
> Wolverine

Just put me down as "general help around the house".

> UP FOR GRABS:
> Agent X (then Deadpool/Cable)

Heck, I'll take "Cable & Deadpool" (that's its official title, BTW, not the other way around).  That's another title I'll likely be buying monthly -- it looks like too much fun not to.

Sadly though, I can't help you on Agent X.  :-(

-Jeph!

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Re: Calendar volunteers re-unite!
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 12, 2003 at 04:08:57:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar volunteers re-unite!
posted by Jeph! on August 11, 2003 at 23:38:14:

> Sadly though, I can't help you on Agent X.  :-(

I'll take it if nobody else wants it.  It's a pretty straightforward sort of book.

BTW, the people dealing with Sentinel and Inhumans might want to keep an eye on both those books.  They're disproportionately likely to interact - both are set in Wisconsin and written by Sean McKeever.

			*	*	*

Re: Calendar volunteers re-unite!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 12, 2003 at 07:07:23:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar volunteers re-unite!
posted by Paul O'Brien on August 12, 2003 at 04:08:57:

Paul, I do have issues 5, 6, 7, 9, and 10 of Agent X, but you might prefer analyzing the entire run anyway.

Thanks to both you and Jeph for snapping up what I hope are the final current and near future titles (at least for now).

--Paul

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Re: Calendar volunteers re-unite!
Posted by Kevin  on August 12, 2003 at 11:46:23:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar volunteers re-unite!
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 12, 2003 at 07:07:23:

> > > Sadly though, I can't help you on Agent X.  :-(

> > I'll take it if nobody else wants it.  It's a pretty straightforward sort of book.

> Paul, I do have issues 5, 6, 7, 9, and 10 of Agent X, but you might prefer analyzing the entire run anyway.

> Thanks to both you and Jeph for snapping up what I hope are the final current and near future titles (at least for now).

Heh.  Well, now that I think about it, no one has mentioned the miniseries, "1602" which starts up this month, (written by Neil Gaiman).  At first glance, it looks non canon, but the writer has said that it IS canon, that you'll have to wait and see how the plot twists work, (and that it will have a connection to modern day Marvel).  

So all's I'm saying is we should watch it because it might have a place on the modern calender, (whenever it gets around to somehow interacting with the modern age)...

Question:  Isn't that Mckeever fellow writing Runaways as well?  So, is that set in Wisconsin as well?  Just curious, (I picked up Inhumans, but not the other two).

			*	*	*

Re: Calendar volunteers re-unite!
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 12, 2003 at 11:53:45:
In Reply to: Re: Calendar volunteers re-unite!
posted by Kevin  on August 12, 2003 at 11:46:23:

> Question:  Isn't that Mckeever fellow writing Runaways as well?  So, is that set in Wisconsin as well?

No, Runaways is by Brian K Vaughan and (thus far, at least) it's set in Florida.  Sentinel and Inhumans have a Wisconsin monopoly at the moment.

I believe Wisconsin is McKeever's home state, as if that wasn't obvious...

			*	*	*

Moving Excalibur #120...
Posted by Jeph! on August 12, 2003 at 01:41:41:

I've been monkeying around with the X-books from "Operation: Zero Tolerance" onwards, and there's a little hitch in Excalibur #120 -- I have a solution, but I thought I'd run it by everyone to check for errors.

In the issue, Nightcrawler calls the X-Men from Muir Island.  He wonders why they haven't contacted him in quite some time, and can't get through on their usual comm frequency.  He opts, instead, to try the telephone.  (What Kurt doesn't know is that the X-Men's fancy technology was stolen by Bastion just prior to X-Men #70.)

Now, this is written pretty clearly as Kurt's first stab at using the telephone to call the X-Men.  Marrow happens to answer, and hangs up on him.  (A footnote tells us that Kurt called right in the middle of the action in X-Men #75, but the footnote can't be right -- Marrow was never IN THE MANSION during that issue, and certainly not during the "action" portion.)

Anyhow, in Uncanny #355, which also came out that month, we see a different scene of Kurt calling.  (Also on the telephone.)  What I'm trying to do right now is shuffle things around so that Excalibur #120 occurs BEFORE Uncanny #355, in order to make Kurt's FIRST use of the telephone actually come FIRST.

Now, here's how events in the main X-books at that time work:

X #72 - Sabra begins investigating Magneto's past.
UX #353-355 - all the same day.  Joseph is present in #353, and Kurt calls the mansion in #355.
X #73 - Sabra convinces Joseph to leave the X-Men and come with her to Israel.  (Rogue's inner monologue in Uncanny #354, claiming that Joseph has already left, is unfortunately wrong -- since Joseph was present in UX #353, which occurs the same DAY as #354.)
X #74-75 - one day.
X #76 - one day.  The Beast is present, and Storm gets summoned to Africa at the issue's end.
UX #356-357 - one day, likely the day after X #76 - the Beast travels to Alaska to visit Scott and Jean.
X #77 - Storm uses Psylocke to teleport the X-Men to Africa (possibly the same night as UX #357 - why would she wait?). Daytime in Africa.  At the end of the issue, a psi-pulse is released that will wipe out most major psi-powers in the Marvel Universe.
UX #358 - Jean, in Alaska, is hit by the psi-pulse.  The Beast is present, so UX #356-357 have to squeeze into the tight margin between X #76-77.
X #78 - Psi-War, part two.  Same day/night.  The Shadow King is defeated at the cost of Betsy's own psi-powers.

Now, Excalibur #120 ends with Sabra contacting the team to help her fight Legion's ghost in Israel.  #121 is split into two parts, an extended flashback to the events of the battle, and a present-day scene where Sabra gets debriefed about the battle and Kurt calls the X-Mansion again -- this time on a videophone, and speaks to the Beast and Dr. Reyes, whose dialogue indicates that this is the same day as X #76.

Placing Sabra's debriefing in #121 the same day as X #76, but her adventure with Excalibur (in #120 and #121-FB) before UX #353 is problematic, as her appearance in X #73 would come in-between the two.

There is another solution -- the way Excalibur #120 is written, Douglock is telling Wolfsbane, who is stuck in medical solitary confinement, all the dirt that had happened on Muir Island recently -- as he tells the stories, we see the scenes, including Kitty and Pete Wisdom breaking up.  These scenes are technically flashbacks!  The scene where Kurt calls the X-Men on the phone is one of these flashbacks -- according to Douglock, it takes place "just after we escaped from Nightmare", which refers to Excalibur #119.

So, perhaps the Kurt flashback in #120 comes before UX #353 -- but the bulk of #120 and #121-FB take place just before X #76, and #121 takes place the morning of X #76.

If this solution is viable, then the next step is to push Excalibur #114-119, and all related issues, back before UX #353.  And there really doesn't appear to be much of a problem with that.

In a previous post about the "New Mutants: Truth or Death" miniseries, I established that the first half of Excalibur #114 has to occur prior to X #62.  The NMTOD series occurs over a "weekend" between pp.13-14 of Excal #114, and when #114 picks up again, the end of the issue continues fairly seamlessly into the "Kitty Pryde: Agent of SHIELD" miniseries.

Next comes Generation X #32-33, where Banshee goes to Muir Island to get Moira's medical opinion on the St. Croix twins -- injured fighting Bastion's OZT Prime Sentinels.  In Excalibur #115, we see that Banshee is still on the island.

#115-119 are fairly uninterrupted, but X-Men Unlimited #19 occurs between #119 and #120.  Personally, I'd place the FB of Kurt calling the mansion BEFORE XU #19, as Douglock says Kurt called "JUST after [#119]", but the flashbacks of Pete and Kitty breaking up would go AFTER XU #19, as Pete doesn't leave pack up and leave Muir Island until the present-day events of #120.  It looks like the breakup flashback occured earlier that same day.

Now, Wolverine appears in the KPAOS mini, and he's unavailable for the duration of X #62-70, kidnapped by O:ZT -- so KPAOS, and by extension the rest of Excal #114, occurs either before or afterward.

Also, Kitty apparently continues to serve with SHIELD after this mini, returning home in #117 with a different outfit and speaking of "saving the world", two things that didn't happen in the KPAOS mini, which took place over one day.  Legally, Kitty signed up as a SHIELD intern, so it's not unreasonable that she stayed on to a bit longer (or was swept up into another adventure).  In any case, we DIDN'T see any sign of Kitty when SHIELD stepped in to stop Bastion and shut down OZT in X #69, so it's a safe bet that her term with SHIELD occured entirely *after* the OZT crossover.

Meaning, things would look like this:

EXCAL #114 pp.1-13
NM:TOD #1-3
X #62-70
EXCAL #114 pp.14-22
KP:AOS #1-3
GEN X #32-33
EXCAL #115-119
EXCAL #120-FB [Kurt]
XU #19
EXCAL #120-FB [Kitty/Pete]
EXCAL #120

Relating this to the main X-books, there's a six-day gap between X #70 and UX #351, and in-book evidence shows that X #71 and UX #351-352 occur in a two-day period (X #71 is the same day the Heroes Return, by the way).  The final page of X #71 leads directly into X #72, but other evidence shows that lots of events have happened between the issues (including all of UX #351-352) -- and in X #72, Cannonball states that it's been "a few days" since UX #352 -- so I've created a gap of several days between pp.22-23 of X #71.

In X #72, Wolverine and Marrow have the big fight that drives her out of the mansion until after X #75 -- there's no way she could have answered the phone in Excal #120-FB after X #72.

So basically, if my proposal works, things would look like this:

X #70
EXCAL #114 pp.14-22
KP:AOS #1-3
GENX #32-33
EXCAL #115-117
X #71 pp.1-20 - five days after X #70.
X #71 pp.21-22 - the next morning, according to UX #351.
UX #351-352 - "six days" after X #70.
EXCAL #118-119
EXCAL #120-FB - Kurt tries to call, Marrow answers.
X #71 p.23 - "a few days" since UX #352.
X #72 - Marrow leaves the mansion.
UX #353-355 - Kurt calls again.
XU #19
X #73-75 - Sabra leaves with Joseph in #73.
EXCAL #120-FB - Kitty and Pete Wisdom break up.
EXCAL #120 - after X #74-75 to allow Sabra enough time to ditch Joseph somewhere before calling Excalibur.
EXCAL #121-FB - the same day or day after #120.
EXCAL #121 - shortly after the FBs in this issue.
X #76 - same day as EXCAL #121.

So ... the big question ... does anyone see any problems with this book order?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Moving Excalibur #120...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 12, 2003 at 07:28:55:
In Reply to: Moving Excalibur #120...
posted by Jeph! on August 12, 2003 at 01:41:41:

Jeph,

Your work on this is timely, considering the fact that I'll be reviewing this territory shortly for the calendar.  I appreciate the thought you've given to this, and things seem to be okay.

I don't think the intertwining of AF2 9 and UX 355 will force any changes here (BTW, I have a page/panel breakdown of that intertwining).  How about Logan's appearances in other titles, including his own?  I notice the MCP has quite a few W2 listings around this time.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Moving Excalibur #120...
Posted by Jeph! on August 12, 2003 at 14:48:34:
In Reply to: Re: Moving Excalibur #120...
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 12, 2003 at 07:28:55:

> Your work on this is timely, considering the fact that I'll be reviewing this territory shortly for the calendar.

Great!  I've just finished a pretty involved issue order spanning X-Men #70-98 and covering most of the X-books ... I'm anxious to butt heads with you on it.  ;)

> I appreciate the thought you've given to this, and things seem to be okay.

Oh good!

> I don't think the intertwining of AF2 9 and UX 355 will force any changes here (BTW, I have a page/panel breakdown of that intertwining).

Heh.  So do I -- I can't wait to see yours...  ::they fight::

> How about Logan's appearances in other titles, including his own?  I notice the MCP has quite a few W2 listings around this time.

I've got everything from his own book placed pretty well ... we'll see soon enough.  I think a really good starting point would be X #65, the very start of the O:ZT outbreak and the capture of the X-Men.  These scenes are shown "live on TV" in many books, so it'll provide us with a great line-wide anchor to build up on.

My general method, by the way, is to start with the main X-books (Uncanny and X-Men) as the "spine" of my calendar -- hammer them into a correct shape and then attach the satellite books as they fit ... so the first thing I post will probably be a bare-bones entwining of Uncanny and X-Men, from UX #350 upwards.

Coming soon: fun.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

UX 355/AF2 9
Posted by Russ Chappell on August 12, 2003 at 17:43:22:
In Reply to: Re: Moving Excalibur #120...
posted by Jeph! on August 12, 2003 at 14:48:34:

> > I don't think the intertwining of AF2 9 and UX 355 will force any changes here (BTW, I have a page/panel breakdown of that intertwining).

> Heh.  So do I -- I can't wait to see yours...  ::they fight::

Here are my notes:

UX 355
Story picks up a few hours after ux 354, and features Wolverine, Sauron, Rogue, Dr. Agee, Sasquatch II, Vindicator, Guardian, Puck, Flex, Manbot, Murmur, Radius, Cyclops, Phoenix IV, Storm, Cannonball II, Maggott, Eeny, Meanie, Margaret Stone-bts, Marta Walz-bts, and Nightcrawler-bts. Most of the story is duplicated in af2 9. Some minor fight segments are new here. Before the fight, Wolverine whispers to Vindicator that something is wrong with Guardian, that he smells funny, that hes him, but not him. Other new segments: Margaret Stone, the education inspector, leaves a message on the X-Mens answering machine that Marta Walz, their representative, will be staying with the X-Men. Nightcrawler also leaves a message. Rogue visits Dr. Agee in an effort to lose her powers, and he takes some preliminary tests. Scott and Jean discuss why shes wearing the Phoenix costume. Sauron escapes from Wolverine during the fight. Note: A crow appears in several scenes, but this may be a private joke from artist Chris Bachalo. Chronological analysis: Story takes place in mid-December (cf ux 354). Rogue makes a throwaway comment that Joseph has left, seemingly referring to x 73, but this is incorrect. This story must occur before x 73, since ux 355 occurs the night of ux 353-354, where joseph appears, and even footnotes in ux 354 indicate these stories occur before x 73. She is perhaps referring to an undisclosed brief leave of absence that Joseph takes after his spell in ux 353. This story is tied closer to another story (af2 9) than any other story in recent memory. Following is the panel by panel breakdown between ux 355 and af2 9, in the format page no./panel no./word balloon no.:

ux 1
af 1-3/1
ux 2-3/1
af 3/2-3/3 ~ ux 3/2-3/3
af 3/4 ~ ux 3/4
ux 3/5-3/6
af 4
ux 4
af 5/1-5/3
ux 5/1-5/3
af 5/4 ~ ux 5/4
af 5/5-6/1/2 ~ ux 5/5/1-5/5/3
ux 5/5/4
af 6/1/3 ~ ux 5/5/5
af 6/2 ~ ux 6/1/1-6/1/2
ux 6/1/3-6/2
af 6/3 ~ ux 6/3
af 6/4-6/5
ux 6/4-6/7
af 7/1-7/2
af 7/3 ~ ux 7/1-7/2
af 7/4-7/5
ux 7/3-7/6/4
af 7/6/1
af 7/6/2 ~ ux 7/6/5
af 8/1 ~ ux 7/7
af 8/2
ux 8/1-8/2
af 8/3 ~ ux 8/3/half of 1
af 8/4/1
af 8/4/half of 2
af 8/4/2nd half of 2 ~ ux 8/3/2nd half of 1
ux 8/3/half of 2
af 8/4/3 ~ ux 8/3/2nd half of 2
af 8/4/4 ~ ux 8/4/1
ux 8/4-8/6
af 9
ux 11/1
af 11/1-11/2
af 11/3 ~ ux 11/2-11/3
af 11/4
ux 11/4-12/1
af 12/1-12/4 ~ ux 12/2-12/4
af 13/1-13/3
ux 13/1-13/3
af 13/4-13/5 ~ ux 13/4-13/6
af 14/1-14/4
ux 14/1-14/4
af 14/5 ~ ux 14/5
af 15/1 ~ ux 14/6-14/7
ux 14/8
af 15/2 ~ ux 15/1
af 15/3 ~ ux 15/2
ux 15/3
af 15/4 ~ ux 15/4
af 15/5-15/6
af 15/7-16/2 ~ ux 15/5-15/6
ux 15/7
af 16/3 ~ ux 15/8
ux 15/9-15/10
af 16/4
af 16/5/1st half ~ ux 16/1-16/2/1st half
af 16/5/2nd half
af 16/6/1st half ~ ux 16/2/2nd half
ux 16/3-16/4
af 16/6/2nd half ~ ux 16/5
ux 16/6-16/7
af 17/1
ux 17/1
af 17/2
ux 17/2-17/3
af 17/3 ~ ux 17/4-17/5
af 17/4 ~ ux 17/6
af 17/5
af 18/1 ~ ux 18/1
af 18/2 ~ ux 18/2
af 18/3
ux 18/3
af 18/4 ~ ux 18/4
af 18/5 ~ ux 18/5
af 18/6
af 19/1-19/2 ~ ux 19/1
af 19/3
af 19/4 ~ ux 19/2
ux 19/3-19/7/1
af 19/5
af 19/6 ~ ux 19/7/2-3
af 19/7 ~ ux 19/8
ux 20/1
af 20/1 ~ ux 20/2
af 20/2 ~ ux 20/3
af 20/3-20/5 ~ ux 20/4-21/1
af 21/1-21/2 ~ ux 21/2
ux 21/3-5
af 21/3-21/4 ~ ux 21/6-21/7
af 22/1 ~ ux 22/1
af 22/2/1
ux 22/2
af 22/2/2-22/3 ~ ux 22/3
ux 22/4
af 22/4-23/1 ~ ux 22/5

			*	*	*

Re: UX 355/AF2 9
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 12, 2003 at 19:30:30:
In Reply to: UX 355/AF2 9
posted by Russ Chappell on August 12, 2003 at 17:43:22:

Okay, I'll post my breakdown and let Jeph pick up the pieces...

This isn't my final calendar format; just a format for initial notes and character appearances. Names in parentheses are BTS. Here a "/" between two citations is equivalent to a "~" in the MCP.

ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 1-page 3, panel 2)
(same night as AFII 8 and probably same night as UX 354; snow; must be Tuesday;
Sasquatch II, Guardian IV, Vindicator II, Puck, Murmur, Flex, Radius, Manbot, Wolverine, Sauron
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 1, panel -page 3, panel 2)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 1-3 and UX 354; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Sauron, (Nightcrawler), (Phoenix IV), (Cyclops)
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 3, panels 3-4)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 1-3; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Sauron, (Sasquatch II), (Guardian IV), (Vindicator II), (Puck), (Murmur), (Flex), (Radius), (Manbot)
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 3, panel 3-page 4, panel 8)
(same night as AFII 9, pg. 3, pn. 3-4; snow; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Sauron, Rogue
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 4, panel 1-page 5, panel 3)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 3-4; must be Tuesday;
Sasquatch II, Flex, Radius, Murmur, Puck, Guardian IV, (Vindicator II), (Manbot), (Wolverine), (Sauron)
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 5, panels 1-4)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 4-5; snow; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Sauron, (Guardian IV), (Sasquatch II), (Flex), (Radius), (Murmur), (Puck), (Vindicator II), (Manbot)
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 5, panel 4)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 5, pn. 1-4; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Sauron, Guardian IV, (Sasquatch II), (Flex), (Radius), (Murmur), (Puck), (Vindicator II), (Manbot)
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 5, panel 5-page 6, panel 1)/ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 5, panel 5-page 6, panel 2)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 5, pn. 4; snow; must be Tuesday;
Guardian IV, Sasquatch II, Flex, Radius, Murmur, Puck, Vindicator II, Manbot, Wolverine, Sauron
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 6, panels 2-3)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 5-6; snow; must be Tuesday;
Guardian IV, Sasquatch II, Flex, Radius, Murmur, Puck, Vindicator II, Manbot, Wolverine, Sauron
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 6, panels 3-4)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 6, pn. 2-3; must be Tuesday;
Sauron, Wolverine, Radius, Flex, (Guardian IV), (Sasquatch II), (Murmur), (Puck), (Vindicator II), (Manbot)
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 6, panel 4)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 6, pn. 3-4; snow; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Guardian IV
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 6, panel 5)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 6, pn. 4; must be Tuesday;
Guardian IV, Wolverine, Flex, Radius
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 6, panels 5-7)
(same night as AFII 9, pg. 6, pn. 5-7; snow; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Guardian IV
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 7, panels 1-2)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 6, pn. 5-7;
General Clarke
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 7, panels 1-2)/ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 7, panel 3)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 7, pn. 1-2; snow; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Vindicator II
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 7, panels 3-5)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 7, pn. 1-2; snow; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Vindicator II, Puck, Sasquatch II, Manbot
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 7, panels 4-5)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 7, pn. 3-5; must be Tuesday;
General Clarke
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 7, panels 6-7)/ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 7, panel 6-page 8, panel 1)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 7, pn. 4-5; snow; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Flex, Radius
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 8, panel 2)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 7, pn. 6-7; must be Tuesday;
General Clarke
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 8, panels 1-2)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 8, pn. 2; snow; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Radius
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 8, panels 3-4)/ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 8, panels 3-5)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 8, panels 1-2; snow; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Murmur, Sauron, Guardian IV
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 8, panel 6)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 8, pn. 3-4; must be Tuesday;
General Clarke
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 8, panels 5-6)/ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 9, panel 1)
(same night as AFII 9, pg. 8, pn. 6; snow; must be Tuesday;
Guardian IV, Sasquatch II, Flex, Radius, Murmur, Puck, Vindicator II, Manbot, Wolverine, Sauron
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 9, panel 2-page 10, panel 9)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 8, pn. 5-6; must be Tuesday;
Guardian IV, Sasquatch II, Flex, Radius, Murmur, Puck, Vindicator II, Manbot, Sunfire, (Wolverine), (Sauron)
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (pages 9-10)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 9-10; must be Tuesday;
Cyclops, Phoenix IV
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 11, panels 1-2)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 9-10; must be Tuesday;
Guardian IV, Wolverine, Sauron
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 11, panel 1)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 11, pn. 1-2; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Sauron, (Guardian IV)
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 11, panels 3-4)/UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 11, panels 2-3)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 11, pn. 1; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Sauron, Guardian IV
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 11, panel 4-page 12, panel 1)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 11, pn. 3-4; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Sauron, (Guardian IV)
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 12, panels 1-2)/UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 12, panels 2-3)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 11-12; must be Tuesday;
Guardian IV, Wolverine, (Sauron)
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 12, panels 3-4)/UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 12, panel 4)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 12, pn. 1-2; must be Tuesday;
Guardian IV, Wolverine
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 13, panels 1-3)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 12, pn. 3-4; must be Tuesday;
Vindicator II, Puck, Sauron, Flex, Radius, Murmur, Manbot, Sasquatch II
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 13, panels 1-3)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 13, pn. 1-3; must be Tuesday;
Sauron, (Vindicator II), (Puck), (Sauron), (Flex), (Radius), (Murmur), (Manbot), (Sasquatch II)
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 13, panels 4-5)/UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 13, panels 4-7)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 13, pn. 1-3; snow; must be Tuesday;
Sauron, Sasquatch II, Murmur
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 14, panels 1-4)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 13, pn. 4-5; bare trees; must be Tuesday;
Rogue
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 14, panels 1-4)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 14, pn. 1-4; bare trees; must be Tuesday;
Puck, Manbot, Flex, Radius, Wolverine, Vindicator II, Guardian IV, Rogue
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 14, panels 5-7)/ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 14, panel 5-page 15, panel 1)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 14, pn. 1-4; bare trees; must be Tuesday;
Rogue, Vindicator II, Puck, Wolverine, Manbot, Flex, Radius, Guardian IV, Sasquatch II, Murmur
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 14, panel 8)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 14, pn. 5-7; must be Tuesday;
Rogue, (Wolverine), (Puck)
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 15, panels 1-4)/ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 15, panels 2-4)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 14, pn. 8; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Puck
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 15, panels 5-6)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 15, pn. 1-4; must be Tuesday;
Radius, Flex
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 15, panel 7-page 16, panel 3)/UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 15, panel 5-8)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 15, pn. 5-6; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Flex, Radius
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 15, panels 9-10)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 15-16; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Flex
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 16, panel 4)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 15, pn. 9-10; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Flex, Guardian IV, Vindicator II, Radius
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 16, panels 1-2)/ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 16, panel 5)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 16, pn. 4; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Guardian IV, Vindicator II, Sauron, Sasquatch II, Murmur
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 16, panel 3-4)
(same day as UX 355 pg. 16, pn. 1-2; must be Tuesday;
Vindicator II, Wolverine
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 16, panel 6)/UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 16, panel 5)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 16, pn. 3-4; must be Tuesday;
Guardian IV, Vindicator II, Wolverine
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 16, panels 6-7)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 16, pn. 6; must be Tuesday;
Guardian IV, Vindicator II, Wolverine, Sasquatch II
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 17, panels 1-2)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 16, pn. 6-7; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Sasquatch II, Murmur, Flex, Radius
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 17, panels 1-3)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 17, pn. 1-2; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 17, panel 3)/UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 17, panels 4-5)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 17, pn. 1-3; must be Tuesday;
Wolverine, Murmur, Sasquatch II
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 17, panels 4-5)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 17, pn. 3; must be Tuesday;
Cannonball, Rogue, Maggott, Storm, Radius, Guardian IV
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 17, panel 6)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 17, pn. 4-5; must be Tuesday;
Rogue, Cannonball, Maggott, Storm, Wolverine, Sasquatch II
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 18, panels 1-2)/UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 18, panels 1-2)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 17, pn. 6; must be Tuesday;
Vindicator II, Storm
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 18, panels 3-4)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 18, pn. 1-2; must be Tuesday;
Vindicator II, Maggott, Rogue, (Storm)
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 18, panel 3)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 18, pn. 3;
Vindicator II, (Storm)
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 18, panels 5-6)/ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 18, panels 4-5)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 18, pn. 3; must be Tuesday;
Maggott, Murmur
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 18, panel 6)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 18, pn. 5-6; must be Tuesday;
Murmur
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 19, panel 1)/ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 19, panels 1-2)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 18, pn. 6; snow; must be Tuesday;
Rogue, Radius, Wolverine
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 19, panels 2-5)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 19, pn. 1; snow; must be Tuesday;
Rogue, Radius
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 19, panels 3-5)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 19, pn. 2-5; snow; must be Tuesday;
Rogue, Radius, Flex
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 19, panels 6-7)/ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 19, panels 6-7)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 19, pn. 3-5; must be Tuesday;
Rogue, Radius, Cannonball, Flex
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 20, panel 1)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 19, pn. 6-7; must be Tuesday;
Cannonball, Flex
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 20, panels 1-2)/UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 20, panels 2-3)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 20, pn. 1; must be Tuesday;
Guardian IV, Puck, Wolverine, Storm, Vindicator II
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 20, panel 4)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 20, pn. 1-2; must be Tuesday;
Maggott, Murmur
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 20, panel 3)/UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 20, panel 5)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 20, pn. 4; must be Tuesday;
Sasquatch II, Maggott, Murmur, Sauron
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 20, panel 6)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 20, pn. 3; must be Tuesday;
Maggott, Murmur
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 20, panels 4-5)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 20, pn. 6; must be Tuesday;
Sasquatch II, Sauron, Maggott, Murmur
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 21, panel 1)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 20, pn. 4-5; must be Tuesday;
Murmur, Maggott, Rogue, Radius
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 21, panel 1-page 23, panel 1)/UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (pages 21-22)
(same night as UX 355 pg. 21, pn. 1; must be Tuesday;
Guardian IV, Wolverine, Puck, Manbot, Vindicator II, Storm, Sauron, Sasquatch II, Cannonball, Flex, Maggott, Murmur, Rogue, Radius
ALPHA FLIGHT II #9 (page 23, panels 2-4)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 21-23; must be Tuesday;
Vindicator II, (Guardian IV), (Wolverine), (Puck), (Manbot), (Storm), (Sauron), (Sasquatch II), (Cannonball), (Flex), (Maggott), (Murmur), (Rogue), (Radius)
UNCANNY X-MEN #355 (page 23)
(same night as AFII 9 pg. 23, pn. 2-4; must be Tuesday;
(Cyclops)

			*	*	*

Re: UX 355/AF2 9
Posted by Jeph! on August 12, 2003 at 23:12:43:
In Reply to: Re: UX 355/AF2 9
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 12, 2003 at 19:30:30:

I'll compare these both to mine and get back to yez.

Yeesh.  Thanks bunches, Seagle.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Alpha Flight v2 #9 / Uncanny X-Men #355 -- the insanely detailed combination rundown!
Posted by Jeph! on August 14, 2003 at 15:53:45:
In Reply to: Re: UX 355/AF2 9 
posted by Jeph! on August 12, 2003 at 23:12:43:

Of the three combinations offered for UX #355 and AFv2 #9, Russ' and mine agreed most closely, and Paul's diverged from both almost from the very beginning. I suspect a majority of the differences stemmed from our shorthand  differing uses of "~", etc.  and I've made up what I feel to be a reasonable, correct, and insanely detailed combination of the three. Let me know if anyone disagrees with my order for anything  we can argue about how to represent it in various characters' chronologies later.

(By the way, in the following, "SFX" means "sound effects", "wb" means "word balloon", and "tb" means "thought balloon". And I generally don't use the "~" notation below unless each panel shows the same scene in the same SETTING  a panel from Wolvie's POV with the AF jet in the background generally shouldn't be "~" to a panel in the AF jet with Wolvie shown on a monitor. [See p.3 panel 2 of both issues.] I'll ignore differing punctuation and italics, but if allegedly identical dialogue is substantially different between the issues, I'll point it out.)

-Jeph!

UX #355 p.1
This page doesn't HAVE to go first, but placing it here doesn't break up the action in the opening pages of AFv2 #9.

AFv2 #9 pp.1-2, p.3 panel 1
A slight overlap occurs between pp.1-2, as Clarke's monitor on p.1 broadcasts Sasquatch's dialogue from p.2 panel 1 wb 1. Alpha Flight fly down the highway after Wolverine's bike.

UX #355 p.2, p.3 panel 1
Wolvie, carting Sauron, drives down the highway.

AFv2 #9 p.3 panel 2
Guardian says he's "moving in for a closer look".

UX #355 p.3 panel 2
In the background, you can see AF's jet moving in closer. 

AFv2 #9 p.3 panel 3 ~ UX #355 p.3 panel 3
Wolvie stares over his shoulder at the jet. The UX panel contains more information  Wolvie's dialogue. The AFv2 panel is silent.

AFv2 #9 p.3 panels 4
The jet swoops over Wolvie's head and he loses his balance

UX #355 p.3 panels 4-6
and Sauron falls off the bike, followed by Wolvie.

AFv2 #9 p.4
Meanwhile, Clarke is distracted by Ghost Girl acting up. This seems to take place seconds after the action in AFv2 #9 p.3.

UX #355 p.4
Meanwhile, Rogue has her appointment with Dr. Agee.

AFv2 #9 p.5 panels 1-3
Alpha Flight park farther down the highway and disembark. Placed before UX #355 p.5 panels 1-3 because of Guardian's order to "prepare for immediate extrusion!" on p.3 panel 4.

UX #355 p.5 panels 1-3
Back on the bike, Wolvie continues down the highway.

AFv2 #9 p.5 panel 4 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.5 panel 4
Wolvie: "What the?!".

AFv2 #9 p.5 panel 4 (visual and SFX)
Wolvie's bike screeches to a halt.

AFv2 #9 p.5 panel 5 ~ UX #355 p.5 panel 5 (wb 1 only)
Guardian: "Hello  Weapon X." The "correct" visual comes from the AFv2 panel, where Vindicator hasn't taken off yet.

AFv2 #9 p.6 panel 1 (visual and wbs 1-2) ~ UX #355 p.5 panel 5 (wbs 2-3 only)
The "correct" visual comes from the AFv2 panel  in the UX panel, Wolvie and Sauron's dialogue is coming from offscreen.

UX #355 p.5 panel 5 (visual and wb 4)
Vindicator takes to the air, and Wolvie speaks a line not included in AFv2 #9 p.6 panel 1.

AFv2 #9 p.6 panel 1 (wb 3) ~ UX #355 p.5 panel 5 (wb 5)
Wolvie: "An' somethin' smells, all right." The UX panel has the "correct" dialogue  Wolvie says "An'" rather than AFv2's "And".

AFv2 #9 p.6 panel 2 ~ UX #355 p.6 panel 1 (wbs 1-2) [shared visual]
The UX panel, wb 2, contains the "correct" dialogue  Guardian adds an extra word, addressing Wolvie as "Logan".

UX #355 p.6 panel 1 (wb 3)
An added line for Guardian.

UX #355 p.6 panel 2
Wolvie walks towards Alpha Flight.

AFv2 #9 p.6 panel 3 ~ UX #355 p.6 panel 3
Wolvie lights a cigarette. The AF panel contains more information  Sauron is visible.

AFv2 #9 p.6 panels 4-5
Flex and Radius chatter as Wolvie walks up to Guardian.

UX #355 p.6 panels 4-7
Wolvie stops in front of Guardian and circles him, sniffing.

AFv2 #9 p.7 panels 1-2
Clarke returns to the monitors.

UX #355 p.7 panels 1-2
Vindicator lands in front of Wolvie.

AFv2 #9 p.7 panels 3
In panel 3 Clarke watches the events of UX #355 p.7 panels 1-2 on a monitor with intermittent audio. Not exactly a "~", since one scene takes place in the US and the other in Canada, with the US events on a monitor.

AFv2 #9 p.7 panels 4-5
The video feed gives out. These panels take place at the same time as UX #355 p.7 panels 3-5.

UX #355 p.7 panels 3-6
Wolvie talks to the rest of AF.

AFv2 #9 p.7 panel 6
The video feed returns, just in time to catch UX #355 p.7 panel 6 (wb 5). (Also not "~" because of the different setting  the UX scene is the events; the AFv2 scene is Clarke watching the events.)

AFv2 #9 p.8 panel 1 ~ UX #355 p.7 panel 7
Wolvie extrudes one claw.

AFv2 #9 p.8 panel 2
Clarke muses.

AFv2 #9 p.8 panel 3 (visual and SFX) ~ UX #355 p.8 panel 1
Wolvie impales his cigarette on his claw and, in the UX panel, talks tough with Radius.

UX #355 p.8 panel 2
Wolvie stomps on his cigarette.

AFv2 #9 p.8 panel 3 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.8 panel 3 (partial wb 1)
The only repetition here is Wolvie's line "Hey, gorgeous." Chalk the differing visuals up to a delayed video feed on Clarke's monitors.

AFv2 #9 p.8 panel 4 (wbs 1 and partial 2)
Murmur: "Moi?"
Wolvie: "Vouz. Nice to see Alpha's still recruiting lookers, and"

AFv2 #9 p.8 panel 4 (rest of wb 2, wb 3) ~ UX #355 p.8 panel 3 (visual and rest of wb 1, wb 2)
Wolvie: "I always notice a pretty face."
Murmur: "Why, thank you, monsieur."
The UX panel (wb 2) contains Murmur's "correct" dialogue  in the AFv2 panel, Murmur does not say "why".

AFv2 #9 p.8 panel 4 (visual, wb 4 and SFX) ~ UX #355 p.8 panel 3 (SFX), panel 4 (wb 1)
Wolvie heads for his bike. The AFv2 panel contains more information  Murmur is visible.

UX #355 p.8 panel 4 (wbs 2-3)
Wolvie prepares to leave.

AFv2 #9 p.8 panels 5-6
Clarke watches Wolvie leaving (again with audio and video that dont quite match the UX events).

UX #355 p.8 panel 5 (visual and wbs 1-3)
Wolvie says an acid goodbye to Guardian.

AFv2 #9 p.9 panel 1 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.8 panel 5 (wb 4)
The UX wb contains the "correct" dialogue; with the additional word "so".

UX #355 p.8 panel 6
Wolvie rides off, leaving AF silent.

AFv2 #9 p.9 panel 1 (visual and wbs 2-3), panels 2-6
As Wolvie gets a little farther off, Radius pipes up. Guardian decides to go after Wolvie.

UX #355 pp.9-10
Meanwhile in Alaska, Scott and Jean argue about the Phoenix costume.

AFv2 #9 p.10
Meanwhile in Toronto, Sunfire decides to return to Japan.

AFv2 #9 p.11 panels 1-2
Guardian catches up to Wolvie, and prepares to fire on him.

UX #355 p.11 panel 1
Wolvie talks to Sauron.

AFv2 #9 p.11 panel 3 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.11 panel 2 [shared visual and SFX]
Wolvie is interrupted as Guardian fires. The AFv2 panel contains the "correct" dialogue  Wolvie says "hell" rather than UX's "heck".

AFv2 #9 p.11 panel 3 (wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.11 panel 3 (wb 1)
Guardian: "Following through."

UX #355 p.11 panel 3 (visual, SFX, and wb 2)
Wolvie and Sauron go flying. The bike skids off the road with a "SKUCCHT".
Sauron: "Whaaah"

AFv2 #9 p.11 panel 4 (visual, wb 1 and SFX)
Wolvie's bike bounces with a "CHASSH". Wolvie and Sauron still haven't landed.

UX #355 p.11 panel 4, p.12 panel 1 (visual and SFX)
Sauron hits the ground: "Unfh!"
Logan collides with him: "KLUDD".
And the bike hits the ground again.

AFv2 #9 p.11 panel 4 (wbs 2-3) ~ UX #355 p.12 panel 1 (wbs 1-2)
Wolvie: "Ufff!"
Sauron: "Aaah!"

AFv2 #9 p.12 panels 1-2 ~ UX #355 p.12 panels 2-3
Wolvie unsheathes his claws and jumps at Guardian.

AFv2 #9 p.12 panel 3
Guardian freezes, remembering an earlier attack by Wolvie.

AFv2 #9 p.12 panel 4 (visual) ~ UX #355 p.12 panel 4
Wolverine connects with Guardian.

AFv2 #9 p.12 panel 4 (wbs 1-2)
An added line for Wolvie -- as he strikes, he chides Guardian for daydreaming.

AFv2 #9 p.13 panels 1-3
Alpha Flight follows their headstrong leader.

UX #355 p.13 panels 1-2
Sauron tries to flee.

AFv2 #9 p.13 panel 4 (wb 1)
Murmur orders Sasquatch to "Stay".

AFv2 #9 p.13 panel 4 (visual and wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.13 panel 3 (SFX and wb 1)
Sauron collides with Sasquatch with a "THUP" and a "W-uh?"

UX #355 p.13 panel 3 (visual)
Sauron falls down.

AFv2 #9 p.13 panel 4 (wbs 3-4) ~ UX #355 p.13 panel 4 (visual and wbs 1-2)
Murmur: "Were you going somewhere, Monsieur sack?"
Sauron: "Uh-Oh"

AFv2 #9 p.13 panel 5 (wb 1)
Murmur: "Hit!"

AFv2 #9 p.13 panel 5 (SFX 1) ~ UX #355 p.13 panel 4 (wb 3)
Sasquatch: "GROARWL!"

AFv2 #9 p.13 panel 5 (SFX 2) ~ UX #355 p.13 panel 5
Sasquatch hits Sauron.

AFv2 #9 p.13 panel 5 (SFX 3)
Sauron hits the gas pump with a "SMASH".

AFv2 #9 p.13 panel 5 (wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.13 panel 6 (wb 1) [shared visual]
Sauron: "Ghuffh!"

UX #355 p.13 panel 6 (wb 2), panel 7
Sauron: "unh..!"
A mechanical crow records the fight.

UX #355 p.14 panels 1-4
Rogue spies orange pyrotechnics (that don't have an AFv2 visual analogue, so pop in a "BTS" for Vindicator here), and investigates.

AFv2 #9 p.14 panels 1-4
Wolvie brawls with Alpha Flight.

AFv2 #9 p.14 panel 5 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.14 panel 5 (wb 1)
Rogue calls out to Wolvie.

AFv2 #9 p.14 panel 5 (wb 2)
An added line for Vindicator: "X-Men?!"

AFv2 #9 p.14 panel 5 (wbs 3-5) ~ UX #355 p.14 panel 5 (wbs 2-4)
The UX panel contains a fuller, "correct" visual, but the AFv2 panel (wb 3) has Wolvie's "correct" dialogue  the added word "Rogue!"

AFv2 #9 p.15 panel 1 ~ UX #355 p.14 panel 6 (wb 1), panel 7 (wb 1)
Guardian blasts at Wolvie and Rogue flies off. Wolvie kicks Radius, knocking him down, and Puck moves to tackle him from behind.

UX #355 p.14 panels 6-7 (visual), panel 8
Wolvie punches Radius while he's down, and elbows Puck in the face. Rogue, on her way to get the rest of the X-Men, shouts over her shoulder.

AFv2 #9 p.15 panels 2-3 ~ UX #355 p.15 panels 1-2
Puck and Wolvie fight. The UX panels contain more information  the combatants' dialogue. The AFv2 panels are silent.

UX #355 p.15 panel 3, panel 4 (wb 1)
Puck kicks Wolvie in the face.

AFv2 #9 p.15 panel 4 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.15 panel 4 (wb 2) [shared visual]
Puck: "Ghuff!"

AFv2 #9 p.15 panels 5-6
Flex and Radius bicker, and Radius decides to use Flex against Wolverine.

AFv2 #9 p.15 panel 7 (visual and wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.15 panel 5 (wb 1)
Radius throws Flex at Wolverine.

AFv2 #9 p.15 panel 7 (wb 2)
Flex screams.

AFv2 #9 p.16 panels 1-2 ~ UX #355 p.15 panel 5 (visual and wb 2)
Wolvie: "Flex--? What's a 'Flex'?"

UX #355 p.15 panels 6-7
Flex screams (again) and manages to morph his arm into a blade.

AFv2 #9 p.16 panel 3 ~ UX #355 p.15 panel 8
Wolvie unsheathes his claws.

UX #355 p.15 panels 9-10
Wolvie retracts his claws at the last second and Flex hits Wolvie's fist with his face.

AFv2 #9 p.16 panel 4
Flex rebounds as Guardian and Vindicator circle.

AFv2 #9 p.16 panel 5 (wbs 1-2, partial wb 3) ~ UX #355 p.16 panel 1
Guardian and Vindicator blast at Wolvie, who runs. The UX panel (wb 3) contains the "correct" dialogue  Wolvie's added phrase, "Gee, I don't know."

AFv2 #9 p.16 panel 5 (rest of wb 3) ~ UX #355 p.16 panel 2 (wb 1)
The UX panel (wb 1) contains the "correct" dialogue  Wolvie's added line "A good scrap's fun, but"

AFv2 #9 p.16 panel 5 (visual, SFX, wbs 4-6)
Murmur and Sasquatch poke Sauron.

AFv2 #9 p.16 panel 6 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.16 panel 2 (visual and wb 2)
Wolvie makes a stand in front of the gas tanks.

UX #355 p.16 panel 3, panel 4 (wbs 1-2)
Vindicator tries to get Wolvie to come quietly, but he declines.

AFv2 #9 p.16 panel 6 (visual, SFX, and wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.16 panel 4 (visual and SFX), panel 5
The UX panel 5 contains Vindicator's "correct" dialogue  the added phrase "we were tracking you".

UX #355 p.16 panel 6
Guardian and Vindicator begin to realize they're wrong.

AFv2 #9 p.17 panel 1 (SFX) ~ UX #355 p.16 panel 7
Sasquatch hits Wolvie from behind.

AFv2 #9 p.17 panel 1 (visual and wb 1)
Wolvie goes flying, and Guardian yells at Sasquatch.

UX #355 p.17 panels 1-3
Wolverine lands, and launches himself back at Sasquatch.

AFv2 #9 p.17 panel 2, panel 3 (wb 1)
Murmur wants more credit for directing Sasquatch's actions. Then: "What?"

AFv2 #9 p.17 panel 3 (visual and wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.17 panel 4
Murmur exclaims "No!" as Wolvie tackles Sasquatch.

AFv2 #9 p.17 panel 3 (wb 3)
An added utterance for Sasquatch: "GAAHK!"

AFv2 #9 p.17 panel 3 (wb 4) ~ UX #355 p.17 panel 5
Wolvie battles Sasquatch.

UX #355 p.17 panel 6 (wb 1)
Sasquatch growls while fighting Wolvie.

AFv2 #9 p.17 panel 4 ~ UX #355 p.17 panel 6 (wb 2)
The "correct" visual comes from the AFv2 panel, where the X-Men are soaring through the sky.

AFv2 #9 p.17 panel 5
Guardian readies himself for battle.

UX #355 p.17 panel 6 (visual, wbs 3-5)
The X-Men land and prepare to help Wolvie.

AFv2 #9 p.18 panel 1 (tb 1)
Vindicator has second thoughts.

AFv2 #9 p.18 panel 1 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.18 panel 1 (partial wb 1) [shared visual]
Th overlap here is Vindicator's line "Stand your ground, Storm."

UX #355 p.18 panel 1 (rest of wb 1, wb 2)
Added lines for Vindicator.

AFv2 #9 p.18 panel 1 (wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.18 panel 1 (wb 3)
One overlapping line: "This doesn't concern you."

UX #355 p.18 panel 1 (wb 4)
Added lines for Storm.

AFv2 #9 p.18 panel 2 (tb 1)
Vindicator has more second thoughts.

AFv2 #9 p.18 panel 2 (visual, SFX, wbs 1-3) ~ UX #355 p.18 panel 2, panel 3 (visual, SFX)
Storm hits Vindicator with lightning. The UX panel (wb 1) contains Storm's "correct" dialogue  the added word "that".

UX #355 p.18 panel 3 (wb 1)
Vindicator: "Aagh!"

AFv2 #9 p.18 panel 3
Vindicator flies uncontrollably through the sky.

UX #355 p.18 panel 4
Rogue orders Maggott to check the gas station.

AFv2 #9 p.18 panel 4 ~ UX #355 p.18 panel 5 (wb 1)
Vindicator lands with a SMASH as Maggott's slugs head straight for Murmur, Eenie saying "Zziel".

AFv2 #9 p.18 panel 5 (visual) ~ UX #355 p.18 panel 5 (visual, wbs 2-4)
The slugs run straight past Murmur  Meanie now saying "Zziell!".

UX #355 p.18 panel 6 (visual, wb 1, partial wb 2)
Maggott watches the slugs run off into the woods as Sasquatch sneaks up behind him.

AFv2 #9 p.18 panel 5 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.18 panel 6 (rest of wb 2)
The UX panel (wb 2) contains Maggott's "correct" dialogue  the added word "Girls!"

AFv2 #9 p.18 panel 6
Murmur is frightened by the slugs.

AFv2 #9 p.19 panel 1 ~ UX #355 p.19 panel 1 (wbs 1-2)
Rogue flies up to Wolvie and Radius.

Afv2 #9 p.19 panel 2 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.19 panel 1 (partial wb 3)
Rogue: "Don't get excited, it's just a sayin' with me."
The AFv2 panel contains Rogue's "correct" dialogue  the added word "it's".

UX #355 p.19 panel 1 (visual, rest of wb 3, wbs 4-5)
Wolvie offers Radius to Rogue.

AFv2 #9 p.19 panel 2 (visual), panels 3-4
Rogue flies off with Radius, throws him down, and pummels him with a multitude of right-handed blows while preparing a left.

UX #355 p.19 panels 2-6
Rogue hits Radius with a left, and Radius begins to get some good hits in.

AFv2 #9 p.19 panel 5
As Rogue gets another right in, Flex wakes up.

UX #355 p.19 panel 7 (wb 1)
Rogue: "Keep it up, an' ah just might be."

AFv2 #9 p.19 panel 6 ~ UX #355 p.19 panel 7 (visual and wbs 2-3)
The UX panel contains more information  Rogue and Radius' fight is still visible.

AFv2 #9 p.19 panel 7 ~ UX #355 p.19 panel 8 (wb 1) [shared visual]
Cannonball stops short in front of Flex: "You serious?"

UX #355 p.19 panel 8 (wbs 2-3)
Added lines for Cannonball and Flex.

UX #355 p.20 panel 1
Cannonball and Flex survey the fight.

AFv2 #9 p.20 panel 1 ~ UX #355 p.20 panel 2 (wb 1)
Puck leaps for Wolvie. The UX panel (wb 1) contains Wolvie's "correct" dialogue  the added word "the".

UX #355 p.20 panel 2 (visual, wbs 2-4)
Puck connects with Wolvie.

UX #355 p.20 panel 3 (visual, wbs 1-2)
Storm hovers over a crouching Vindicator.

AFv2 #9 p.20 panel 2 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.20 panel 3 (wb 3)
Storm: "You act as though you have been brainwashed."

UX #355 p.20 panel 3 (wb 4)
Vindicator: "Rainwa?"

AFv2 #9 p.20 panel 2 (visual)
Vindicator launches herself at Storm.

UX #355 p.20 panel 4
Maggott propositions Murmur.

AFv2 #9 p.20 panel 3 ~ UX #355 p.20 panel 5
Sasquatch hits Maggott with Sauron. The AFv2 panel contains the "correct" visual  Murmur is visible  but the UX panel (wb 1) contains Sauron's "correct" dialogue  the added exclamation "Duffh!"

UX #355 p.20 panel 6 (visual and wb 1)
Murmur prepares to touch the fallen Maggott.

AFv2 #9 p.20 panel 4 (partial wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.20 panel 6 (wb 2)
Murmur: "Slee--"

AFv2 #9 p.20 panel 4 (visual and rest of wb 1), panel 5
Murmur begins to scream, unnerved by a memory from her past.

UX #355 p.21 panel 1
Murmur, touching Maggott, continues to scream, and Rogue and Radius continue to fight. (It's hard to tell, but I take these two images as one panel.)

AFv2 #9 p.21 panel 1 (visual and wb 1)
Murmur, her hands off Maggott, is still screaming.

AFv2 #9 p.21 panel 1 (wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.21 panel 2 (visual and wb 1)
Manbot: "Subject sighted."

AFv2 #9 p.21 panel 2 ~ UX #355 p.21 panel 2 (wb 2)
A big battle scene. The UX panel (wb 2) contains Wolvie's "correct" dialogue  he says "o'" instead of "of" in the AFv2 panel.

AFv2 #9 p.21 panel 3 (visual and wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.21 center panel "3" [shared visual]
Cannonball: "Hey everybody! HEY!"

UX #355 p.21 surrounding reaction panels "4-7"
Everyone stops fighting.

AFv2 #9 p.21 panel 3 (wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.21 pop-out panel "8" (visual and wb 1)
Cannonball thinks there's been a big screw-up.

AFv2 #9 p.21 panel 4 ~ UX #355 p.21 pop-out panel "8" (wbs 2-4)
The UX panel (the hovering image of Cannonball and Flex superimposed over the reaction panels of Rogue and Sasquatch) contains Cannonball's "correct" dialogue in wbs 3-4  Cannonball says "Wolvy's wanted for murderin' a guy a couple weeks ago  but we were all in Bastion's jail then." In the AF panel (wbs 2-3), he says "Wolvy's wanted for murderin' a guy a couple DAYS ago  but we were all in BOSTON'S jail then." 'Boston' is an obvious spellcheck mistake for the villain Bastion, and the "weeks" reference is chronologically more accurate than the "days" reference, as we know that six days separate the X-Men's return home from Bastion's jail in X #70 from UX #351-352, and "days" separate UX #352 from X #72, which UX #353-355 take place after.

AFv2 #9 p.22 panel 1 ~ UX #355 p.22 panel 1 (wb 1)
Wolvie stops throttling Guardian

UX #355 p.22 panel 1 (visual and wb 2)
and leaps over Manbot.

AFv2 #9 p.22 panel 2 (visual and wb 1)
Vindicator lands between Radius and Rogue.

UX #355 p.22 panel 2
Vindicator calms Radius down.

AFv2 #9 p.22 panel 2 (wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.22 panel 3 (wb 1)
Vindicator has an overlapping line.

AFv2 #9 p.22 panel 3 (wbs 1-2) ~ UX #355 p.22 panel 3 (visual and wb 2)
Vindicator stands by Radius as her memory begins to return. Wolvie picks up Sauron's chains.

AFv2 #9 p.22 panel 3 (visual and wb 3) ~ UX #355 p.22 panel 3 (partial wb 3)
Vindicator walks over to Wolvie and says "We're being used, and by our own bosses."

UX #355 p.22 panel 3 (rest of wb 3)
Added lines for Vindicator.

UX #355 p.22 panel 3 (wb 4), panel 4
Wolvie stares into the woods: "Sauron..?"

AFv2 #9 p.22 panel 4 (visual and wb 1)
Vindicator promises to return home and confront Weapon X.

AFv2 #9 p.22 panel 4 (wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.22 panel 5
Wolvie says his goodbyes, takes Vindicator's hand, and promises to help her if needed.

AFv2 #9 p.22 panel 5
Close-up on Manbot as he transmits a delayed and distorted version of the events in UX #355 p.22 panel 5 (wb 2).

AFv2 #9 p.22 panel 6
Clarke watches a close-up of Vindicator from UX #355 p.22 panel 5 (wb 4), although the video is likely from just afterwards (she is no longer smiling).

AFv2 #9 p.23
Clarke listens to distorted audio from UX #355 p.22 panel 5 (wb 5), and watches video from just after that point  Wolvie has dropped Vindicator's hand. On the monitors, Alpha Flight piles back into their jet and heads for home, as Clarke stews.

UX #355 p.23
Meanwhile, back the X-Mansion, Scott calls, worried about Jean. (Just as with p.1, this page doesn't HAVE to take place last, but placing it here doesn't interrupt the continuous events of AFv2 #9 pp.22-23  and placing p.1 first and p.23 last, both with "answering machine" sequences, makes an effective bookend to the story. 

			*	*	*

Re: Alpha Flight v2 #9 / Uncanny X-Men #355 -- the insanely detailed combination rundown!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 14, 2003 at 21:15:44:
In Reply to: Alpha Flight v2 #9 / Uncanny X-Men #355 -- the insanely detailed combination rundown!
posted by Jeph! on August 14, 2003 at 15:53:45:

>I've made up what I feel to be a reasonable, correct, and insanely detailed combination of the three.  Let me know if anyone disagrees with my order for anything  we can argue about how to represent it in various characters' chronologies later.

After looking at the impressive length and detail of this, I first thought, "Great work, Jeph!"  Then I thought, "I say thee yea, mighty Jeph!"  (oops, wrong thread).  Then I thought, "man, we all need help." ;)

Seriously, thanks for sorting this all out.  I'll add this to an extraordinarily long date entry in the calendar.

--Paul

			*	*	*

How to list this on the MCP?
Posted by Jeph! on August 14, 2003 at 23:54:15:
In Reply to: Re: Alpha Flight v2 #9 / Uncanny X-Men #355 -- the insanely detailed combination rundown!
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 14, 2003 at 21:15:44:

> After looking at the impressive length and detail of this, I first thought, "Great work, Jeph!"

Thanks!  It literally took me all night.

> Then I thought, "man, we all need help." ;)

That was exactly my thought when I finished it.  I sent the link to a few of my friends, and asked them all "what the hell is wrong with me?"

> Seriously, thanks for sorting this all out.  I'll add this to an extraordinarily long date entry in the calendar.

Just so long as you write "must be Tuesday" under every single segment.  ;-)

I was thinking of how to list this on the MCP -- I've gotten SO detailed that distilling it into a series of accurate entries like the current ones might be problematic.

What I was thinking is, under everyone's chronology, we simply write "AF2 9 ~ UX 355", but the whole thing is a hyperlink -- click on it and you're transported to a page where a rundown very similar to mine is posted, with the same panel-by-panel breakdowns for the whole issue(s), and lists of who's present in each panel.

Russ, does this sound tempting at all?  It'd certainly provide a lot more information than the current chronologies, which just drone "UX 355 / AF2 9 ~ UX 355 / UX 355 / AF2 9 / AF2 9 ~ UX 355" and so on...

Oh, and one final thing -- AFv2 #9 may have a flashback in it that's been overlooked.  On p.20, panel 5, Murmur seems to experience a traumatic memory from her childhood, of being locked in a room full of bugs.  If this is a real memory (and why wouldn't it be?), then the image should count as a flashback.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Chronologers Assemble! (a brief moment of comedy)...
Posted by Kevin  on August 12, 2003 at 16:57:06:

Hello,  

I've been emailing back and forth with Paul B. over the current situation with the calender, when we got a little off topic, but we figured we just had to share this with all of you.  

It started when I referred to Paul B., Jeph, and Sean, as the Big 3 chronologers. I say that because though I've been lurking around this website for a few years now, when I first started posting, it was these three who did the most posting, and the most chronology work, (and I can tell you 3 are among the most dedicated to the MCP).

So naturally, the following email conversation ensued, with Paul responding to my "Big 3" comment, (picture it if you will):

Paul B:  The Big 3, eh?  So am I Cap, Thor or Shellhead? ;) 

Kevin 

			*	*	*

The rest of the story....
Posted by Kevin  on August 12, 2003 at 17:07:31:
In Reply to: Chronologers Assemble! (a brief moment of comedy)...
posted by Kevin  on August 12, 2003 at 16:57:06:

*sigh*...clicked the wrong button at the wrong time...anyway, the rest is below.

> Hello,  

> I've been emailing back and forth with Paul B. over the current situation with the calender, when we got a little off topic, but we figured we just had to share this with all of you.  

> It started when I referred to Paul B., Jeph, and Sean, as the Big 3 chronologers. I say that because though I've been lurking around this website for a few years now, when I first started posting, it was these three who did the most posting, and the most chronology work, (and I can tell you 3 are among the most dedicated to the MCP).

> So naturally, the following email conversation ensued, with Paul responding to my "Big 3" comment, (picture it if you will):

Paul B:  The Big 3, eh?  So am I Cap, Thor or Shellhead? ;) 

Kevin:  Well, if I had to take a guess, I'd say Jeph was Thor, going by how he likes to keep the message board in line, (notice how he likes to strike down posts that are off topic or don't belong at all; he does it with a 'righteous furvor' befitting Thor)  "I SAY THEE NAY!  THOU SHALL NOT STRAY OFF TOPIC!" 

He's also very self assured in his style of chronologizing. 

You're probably Iron Man, going about tackling this chronologizing with mathematical precision.  Every thing must be clear and orderly for the calender:  figuring out the order of comics is like a scientific formula you're hellbent on deciferying. 

Your style and Jeph's sometimes clash, which must mean that Sean is Captain America, who's there to draw the line and find good aspects in both of your styles.  I've also seen him show a jolly attitude about him that I suppose could remind me of the good Captain. 

Heh.  Well, you did ask... 

Paul B: Heh, heh.  That's actually pretty good.  You should share this with Sean and Jeph; they'd probably get a kick out of it.  If the Big 3 is taken, what does that make Russ? 

Kevin:  Ummm...Russ can be Mister Fantastic, I guess. After all, the Fantastic Four were the first Marvel Superheroes, (of the Silver Age anyway). So since he's the guy who started up the website, it kinda makes sense. 

Paul: Yeah, that match actually occurred to me, too.  Does this mean he's malleable? 

Kevin: But then, what does that make George Olshevsky?  I suppose he can be the original Human Torch, the 1st superhero, (since Olshevsky was the first chronologer).  And like Olshevsky, the original Human Torch is retired now, (except for that bit where he was a member of Heroes for Hire). 

Paul: Technically, Namor was the first (in Motion Picture Funnies Weekly).  See previous posts.  But I do like the Jim Hammond observation.  George lit the torch that keeps us going... 

Kevin: And I can be Spiderman: the loveable loser who has all the supermodel girlfriends falling heads over heels for him. Heh, okay that's enough. ;-) 

Paul: If so, it would be because of your great sense of responsibility for the cause of chronology. 

It was about here that we decided to share this line of thought with the rest of you.  But I will say that really there's no way I could be Spiderman, Paul.  Heck, what would my slogan be?  "With Great Chronology comes Great Responsibility?"  Yeah, words to live by...

;-)

			*	*	*

Re: The rest of the story....
Posted by Jeph! on August 12, 2003 at 23:10:06:
In Reply to: The rest of the story....
posted by Kevin  on August 12, 2003 at 17:07:31:

> I'd say Jeph was Thor, going by how he likes to keep the message board in line, (notice how he likes to strike down posts that are off topic or don't belong at all; he does it with a 'righteous furvor' befitting Thor)  "I SAY THEE NAY!  THOU SHALL NOT STRAY OFF TOPIC!" 

> He's also very self assured in his style of chronologizing.

Oh, Kevin, thou dost flatter me.  Seriously, though, that's really funny.  Do I really bash down the off-topic posts?  Yeah, I guess I do.  UNBELIEVERS!

"Whosoever holds this comic, if he be worthy..."

> there's no way I could be Spiderman, Paul.  Heck, what would my slogan be?  "With Great Chronology comes Great Responsibility?"  Yeah, words to live by...

"With Great Power Comes Great Chronology"?  I dunno.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: The rest of the story....
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 13, 2003 at 15:42:28:
In Reply to: Re: The rest of the story....
posted by Jeph! on August 12, 2003 at 23:10:06:

> > there's no way I could be Spiderman, Paul.  Heck, what would my slogan be?  "With Great Chronology comes Great Responsibility?"  Yeah, words to live by...

> "With Great Power Comes Great Chronology"?  I dunno.

"With Great CHRONOLOGY Comes Great Power!"

			*	*	*

Re: The rest of the story....
Posted by Kevin  on August 14, 2003 at 16:59:24:
In Reply to: Re: The rest of the story....
posted by Arthur Stein on August 13, 2003 at 15:42:28:

> > > I'd say Jeph was Thor, going by how he likes to keep the message board in line, (notice how he likes to strike down posts that are off topic or don't belong at all; he does it with a 'righteous furvor' befitting Thor)  "I SAY THEE NAY!  THOU SHALL NOT STRAY OFF TOPIC!" 

> > > He's also very self assured in his style of chronologizing.

> > Oh, Kevin, thou dost flatter me.  Seriously, though, that's really funny.  Do I really bash down the off-topic posts?  Yeah, I guess I do.  UNBELIEVERS!

> > "Whosoever holds this comic, if he be worthy..."

Hmmm...How's that old intro to Thor's comic go???  

I can see it now:  From immortal Internet he hails - Jeph! The mightiest chronologer of all mythology! Wielder of the mystic X-men timeline guide, he is the Message Poster of Thunder, master of Keeping the MCP message board in line!

Sorry, couldn't help myself...

;-)

> > > there's no way I could be Spiderman, Paul.  Heck, what would my slogan be?  "With Great Chronology comes Great Responsibility?"  Yeah, words to live by...

> > "With Great Power Comes Great Chronology"?  I dunno.

> "With Great CHRONOLOGY Comes Great Power!" 

That's it!  That sounds great!  Hmmm...if a person with great chronology has great power, then that must mean Russ is a God! Eternity has nothing on him...

;-) 

			*	*	*

HA!
Posted by SKleefeld on August 19, 2003 at 12:01:49:
In Reply to: The rest of the story....
posted by Kevin  on August 12, 2003 at 17:07:31:

This whole grad school thing's been slowing me down, so I'm a scootch late to the thread, but...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhA!

Thanks for the compliment. Me as Cap! Love it!

Now, if you'll excuse me, only one of us will be walking out of here and it won't be ME!  

;)

-- Cap Sean

			*	*	*

SEA WITCH...SEEKER III...SENTRY 459
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 13, 2003 at 15:59:08:

new entries marked **

SEA WITCH/BRIGIT O'HARE
**PPTSS@ 8    (19p8)
M/CP 101/2

SEEKER III
**FF 46
**FF 47
**FF 48

SENTRY 459
CM 3-FB
**FF 98
A 89

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#110

			*	*	*

Chronology review: Agent X
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 13, 2003 at 16:28:36:

Always nice to have an excuse to re-read this series.  Well, most of it, anyway. 

DEAD MAN'S SWITCH
AGENT X #1 (September 2002) by Gail Simone and Udon
AGENT X #2 (October 2002) by Gail Simone and Udon
AGENT X #3 (November 2002) by Gail Simone and Udon
AGENT X #4 (December 2002) by Gail Simone and Udon
AGENT X #5 (January 2003) by Gail Simone and Udon
AGENT X #6 (February 2003) by Gail Simone and Udon

GENERAL COMMENTS:
This first arc covers, at a bare minimum, nine days as follows:-
Day 1: AGENT X #1, pp1-11
Days 2-4: AGENT X #1, pp12-14
Day 5: AGENT X #1, pp15-17
Day 6: AGENT X #1 p18 to AGENT X #2 p15
Day 7: AGENT X #2 p16 to AGENT X #5 p20
Day 8: AGENT X #5 p21 to AGENT X #6 p15
Day 9: AGENT X #6 p16 to end
There is space to shoehorn in some additional days in the early part of the story (eg, rest days between training sessions).

SYNOPSIS
AGENT X #1, pp1-11: Sandi Brandenberg returns home to her apartment, and finds a badly injured Agent X on her doorstep.  She takes him in and feeds him.  He claims to be amnesiac and dodges the question of whether he is Deadpool.  Agent X asks her to help him become a mercenary.  Meanwhile, the new leader of the Four Winds organisation, Higashi, struggles to assert his authority.  His aide, Saguri, tells him that if he does not assert himself soon, she will probably be asked to kill him by the underbosses.  After a meeting with the underbosses goes badly, Saguri advises Higashi to prove himself with a display of force.  Back at Sandi's house, the Taskmaster (Sandi's boyfriend) comes round to visit, and assumes Agent X is an intruder.  Sandi calms him down and enlists his - very reluctant - aid in training Agent X as a mercenary.  By this point, Sandi and Agent X have settled on the name "Alex Hayden" for him.

Characters appearing: Agent X, Sandi Brandenberg, the Taskmaster, Higashi, Saguri

[No clear time references.  Higashi is the heir to the Four Winds organisation, whose previous leaders were slaughtered by Deadpool in his own series; he has evidently been in charge long enough to infuriate the organisation but not so long as to get himself killed yet.]

AGENT X #1, p12 to p13pn2: "The next day."  The Taskmaster begins to train Agent X.

Characters appearing: Agent X, the Taskmaster.

[In his journal, Agent X refers to this as "Training: Day One."]

AGENT X #1, p13pn3-4: More training.

Characters appearing: Agent X, the Taskmaster.

[The journal refers to this as "Training: Day Two."]

AGENT X #1, p13pn5-6: And more training.  Agent X continues to be utterly useless throughout all these training sessions, which consist of the Taskmaster beating him up.

Characters appearing: Agent X, the Taskmaster.

[The journal refers to this as "Training: Day Three."]

AGENT X #1, p14: "A few days, and multiple compound fractures later."  Sandi complains to the Taskmaster that they are not making enough progress.  The Taskmaster insists that he is trying; Agent X is simply talentless and will get people killed.  Agent X overhears.  Meanwhile, Higashi decides to take an interest in a river development which the Four Winds are involved in.

Characters appearing: Agent X, Sandi, the Taskmaster, Higashi, Saguri.

[The reference to "A few days later" is problematic, because the training session on the next page is described as "Training: Day Four" in Alex's diary, and the next session seen is referred to as "Training: Day Five".  The only way of squaring this is that Day Three went on to involve such severe injuries that Alex took a few days to recover before training resumed, and page 14 takes place during this period.]

AGENT X #1, p15-17.  Sandi brings in Outlaw to help with the training.  Outlaw discovers that Agent X is an excellent shot.  In the evening [presumably the same one], Sandi takes Agent X and the Taskmaster to the cemetary where Wade Wilson has been buried - twice - and Agent X claims not to remember anything.  Elsewhere [presumably the same day], Higashi addresses another meeting of his underbosses, reveals that he has killed one of them, and demands progress on the river development.

Characters appearing: Agent X, the Taskmaster, Outlaw, Sandi, Higashi, Saguri.

[Described in the journal as "Training, Day Four."]

AGENT X #1, pp18-19.  Agent X and Taskmaster spar again, and this time Agent X defeats the Taskmaster.

Characters appearing: Agent X, the Taskmaster.

[Described in the journal as "Training, Day Five."]

AGENT X #1, p20-p22pn3.  Night.  Agent X goes round lowlife bars hunting for mercenary work.  He is finally hired by Paul Steinen owner of the delapidated Alpine Park theme park.  The Four Winds want to buy the Park.  They have scared off all his employees and let loose the animals.  Steinen is afraid to go to the authorities because he believes the Four Winds will frame him for negligence.  Instead, he hires Agent X to recover the animals.

Characters appearing: Agent X, Sandi, the Taskmaster, Paul Steinen.

[Described in the journal as "Job Hunting, day one."  It's a full moon.]

AGENT X #1, p22pn4-p30.  Agent X rounds up the animals and, riding an elephant, storms the Four Winds' offices to demand that they steer clear of Alpine Park.  He returns to Sandi's apartment with his pay - the title deeds to the Park.  As he returns, the Taskmaster is taking a call from somebody who wants him to pursue the Punisher; the Taskmaster rejects the job as utterly suicidal, and then cynically recommends Alex.

Characters appearing: Agent X, Sandi, the Taskmaster, Paul Steinen

[The timescale on this scene is messed up.  The dialogue suggests that it takes place over a period of several hours running overnight and following immediately from the previous scene.  Steinen hasn't changed his clothes from the previous scene, and he comments that "dawn's coming."  Unfortunately, the entire animal-hunting scene takes place in broad daylight.  The more plausible explanation is a colouring error.  The latter part, with the attack on the Four Winds' offices, must take place in late afternoon, since it is dark by the time characters are considering the aftermath in issue #2.]

AGENT X #2, pp1-15.  Agent X takes Sandi and the Taskmaster to see Alpine Park for the first time.  Meanwhile, Higashi and Saguri survey the damage to their offices.  Higashi instructs a cost analysis on having Agent X killed as against simply offering him more money for the Park.  Back at the Park, the Taskmaster sends Agent X on the mission to hunt the Punisher, without giving him details.  Agent X happily drives off to the location given, leaving Taskmaster and Sandi behind.  "Half an hour later", Agent X attends a briefing at the Culver Sport & Gun Club, along with Outlaw and three minor mercenaries (B-1, Scalpel and Bloc).  Each of the five Club members will pick a mercenary; the mercenaries will compete to recover the Punisher's guns as a bet.  The competition has a 48-hour time limit.  Agent X and Outlaw promptly turn on the other three and beat them up, before heading off after the Punisher.  "90 minutes later", Outlaw attempts to kill the Punisher with a sniper rifle, but is interrupted by Agent X.  They fight, and the Punisher leaves while they are occupied.  Outlaw and Agent X decide to go on a date instead.  Outlaw eventually takes Agent X back to her apartment.

Characters appearing: Agent X, Sandi, the Taskmaster, Outlaw, Higashi, Saguri, the Culver Sport & Gun Club, B-1, the Scalpel, Bloc, the Punisher

[After dark, running through to night on the same day as the end of issue #1.  The trees have leaves.  The Punisher isn't doing anything very specific in this issue that would pin him down in his continuity - he's just going about his usual business.]

AGENT X #2, pp16-22.  Agent X wakes up in Outlaw's bedroom.  They go to the Punisher's current HQ and he easily overcomes them both.  They explain that they only wanted his guns.  The Punisher leaves them both naked in a phone booth and heads off to collect the money himself.  He arrives at the Gun Club and kills all the members.

Characters appearing: Agent X, Sandi, the Taskmaster, Outlaw, the Punisher.

[Covering the entire day following the previous scene - Agent X is woken by daylight, and by the end of the issue it's dark again.]

AGENT X #3, pp1-6.  Sandi's apartment; she's just returned with Agent X and Outlaw, having picked them up from where the Punisher left them.  Agent X immediately attacks the Taskmaster, having realised that the Taskmaster sent him to get killed.  The Taskmaster effectively admits this, and argues that he was trying to protect Sandi by getting rid of a dangerous lunatic.  Sandi is not impressed, and the Taskmaster storms out.

Characters appearing: Agent X, Sandi, the Taskmaster, Outlaw

[Same evening as the end of the previous issue.]

AGENT X #3, pp7-22.  "The following morning."  Mary Zero is introduced; she's a girl whose powers mean nobody can ever notice her around.  It's her birthday (she's fourteen, as we find out next issue).  At 6.30, Alex takes Sandi and Outlaw to the Park.  Sandi mentions that they have an appointment with Arcade (in his capacity as a theme park expert).  Higashi and Saguri come by, and Higashi repeats his offer to buy the Park.  Alex turns him down, so Higashi sets the gunmen on him.  Sandi fends them off with an elephant.  At 9am, Agent X and Outlaw go to a jewellers, where they are hired to protect the store from repeated robberies.  They hang around at the store all day, waiting for an attack.  Mary Zero turns up, planning to use her powers to shoplift some jewels as a birthday present for herself.  The real robbers also arrive.  Outlaw is injured in the firefight.  The robbers flee in their getaway car;  Agent X and Mary Zero give chase, and cause the robbers to crash.  Agent X turns out to be the only person immune to Mary Zero's powers.  Delighted to have somebody who can see her at last, she hugs him.

Characters appearing: Agent X, Mary Zero, Sandi, Outlaw.

[The day after the previous sequence, as stated in narration.  Internal references make clear that all of this is on the same day - Mary consistently refers to this as her birthday, for example.  Leaves on the trees again.  The story runs through to the afternoon]

AGENT X #4.  Agent X takes Mary Zero to a Latverian restaurant.  Outlaw phones in to confirm that she's okay and that the client is pleased.  After they leave, Mary continue to tail Agent X.  Higashi phones Agent X and says that he and Saguri are at the Park.  Agent X and Mary rush back to the park.  In fact, however, Higashi and his men (increasingly impressed and devoted) go to Sandi's apartment.  To her surprise, Higashi asks her on a date; Saguri is unimpressed.  Taskmaster watches through binoculars from a neighbouring rooftop.  Agent X and Mary Zero arrive at the Park, and find it on fire.  Agent X rushes in and realises too late that he has idiotically entered a glaringly obvious trap.  He fights Higashi's henchmen who are at the Park, and defeats them, but is horribly injured in the process.  Mary races to get help but, because of her powers, she cannot attract anyone's attention.  Cliffhanger!

Characters appearing: Agent X, Mary Zero, Outlaw, Sandi, Higashi, Saguri, Taskmaster.

[The evening and night of the same day seen in the second half of issue #3.]

AGENT X #5, pp1-20.  Arcade arrives for Agent X's appointment and saves his life (presumably because Agent X is a paying customer).  Across town, Saguri and Higashi argue about whether it is appropriate for Higashi to pursue Sandi.  The Taskmaster visits and offers an alliance with Higashi.  He tells them that Agent X is Deadpool.  This means, of course, that Agent X killed the previous leader of the Four Winds; as a matter of honour, Saguri will now want to kill Agent X and anyone who has helped him.  Higashi promptly withdraws from the deal and advises the Taskmaster to get Sandi to safety before Saguri comes for her.  The Taskmaster escapes Saguri's men and phones Sandi to try and warn her.  Saguri's men arrive at Sandi's apartment, but Agent X returns and stops them.  The henchmen were carrying a message telling Agent X to meet them at Alpine Park at dawn.  Agent X, the Taskmaster, Outlaw and Sandi head for Alpine Park to prepare for the showdown.

Characters appearing: Agent X, Mary Zero, Arcade, Higashi, Saguri, the Taskmaster

[The night of the same day seen in issue #4.]

AGENT X #5, pp21-22.  Dawn at Alpine Park.  Agent X, Outlaw and the Taskmaster ready themselves for the fight, as henchmen and minor supervillains gather outside.  The Jester and Crossfire, of all people, are visible.

Characters appearing: Agent X, Outlaw, Taskmaster, Jester, Crossfire

[The dawn immediately following the above night.]

AGENT X #6, pp1-15.  Huge great big fight at the Park.  We leave it still in progress, but the heroes ultimately emerge victorious.

Characters appearing: Agent X, Outlaw, Taskmaster, Saguri, Crossfire, the Blizzard (?), the Constrictor, the daughters of Batroc the Leaper and the Tarantula (!), the Rhino.

[Direct continuation from the end of issue #5.  The Taskmaster mentions that "I shoulda left days ago"; it's only been two days since he walked out, and even then he stuck around to monitor Sandi, so this sort of makes sense.]

On the evening of this day, on Agent X's instructions, Mary Zero takes photos of all Higashi's family; we don't see this, but it's alluded to in later scenes.  Agent X also takes a contract from Higashi to kill Saguri.

AGENT X #6, pp16-22.  "Next morning."  Agent X, Taskmaster and Outlaw head to a cafe after the fight at the Park - which evidently went on for ages.  Mary Zero arrives, with the photos.  Agent X goes to the Four Winds' headquarters and storms in.  He tables the photos of Higashi's family and warns him that if the Four Winds go near any of the Agent X cast again, the family will suffer.  Then he fulfils his contract by killing Saguri.  Higashi releases Sandi back to Agent X.

Characters appearing: Agent X, Outlaw, Taskmaster, Saguri, Higashi, Sandi

[The day after the previous sequence.]

=============

SHAMEFUL WILLIAM
AGENT X #7 (March 2003) by Gail Simone and Udon

GENERAL COMMENTS:
One day, self-contained - all very straightforward.

SYNOPSIS
AGENT X #7: Agent X is hired by the bizarre Shameful William, an omnifetishist who is aroused by everything.  His prized possession, Marie Antoinette's underwear, has been stolen by a rival omnifetishist, Lynda Lodestone.  Agent X and William track Lodestone down and recover the underwear.  Agent X persuades William and Lodestone that they would make a great couple.  Later, he tries to persuade Sandi, Outlaw and Taskmaster to join him in Agency X.  Taskmaster declines, and Outlaw says that she is leaving New York to visit her father, who is sick.  Agent X, Sandi and Mary Zero remain behind at the amusement park.

Characters appearing: Agent X, Sandi, Outlaw, Taskmaster, Mary Zero, Shameful William, Lynda Lodestone

[The Taskmaster's left arm is still bandaged; presumably he is recovering from injuries sustained in the previous issue.  Dialogue suggests that this is Alex's second paying assignment after he recaptured the animals in issue #1, but according to Sandi he is in demand following his defeat of the Four Winds - so not much time can have passed.  The trees are still green.]

=============

HOLD THAT GHOST
AGENT X #8 (April 2003) by Buddy Scalera, Mitchell Breitweiser and Mark McKenna
AGENT X #9 (May 2003) by Scalera, Breitweiser and McKenna

GENERAL COMMENTS:
The timescale of this (rather awful) two-parter is difficult to make sense of.  Three days would seem to be the total, however.  There are no indications of how much time has passed since the previous arc.

SYNOPSIS
AGENT X #8, pp1-13: "Afternoon."  Agent X goes to the offices of Christine Gallhager.  In a fight with Gallhager's henchman Dante, he severs Dante's right hand.  Gallhager is impressed by Agent X's gratuitous sadism and hires him to kill an invisible man.  Following leads from Gallhager, during the evening, Agent X trails round various restaurants causing mayhem.  He eventually catches up with the invisible man, who uses an electroshock weapon to escape.

Characters appearing: Agent X, Christine Gallhager, Dante, the invisible man.

[This sequence runs from afternoon into the evening.]

AGENT X #8, pp14-22: "Later", back at Christine's office.  Agent X and Gallhager engage in more exposition, and we establish that the invisible man is Gallhager's father.  Dante arrives, now with a hook in place of his missing right hand, and threatens Agent X again.  Agent X calmly severs Dante's other hand as well.  "Ten minutes later", outside the office, Agent X senses the invisible man waiting, by the scent of his weaponry.  He pursues the invisible man into a chef supply store.  The invisible man blows up the store with two hand grenades.

Characters appearing: Agent X, Christine Gallhager, Dante, the invisible man.

[The artist and colourists seem to be under the impression that this is night - for example, the lights outside Christine's office building are on when Agent X leaves.  But that doesn't make sense, since issue #9 continues directly from this point and soon heads into scenes where the shops are open.  The best explanation is that this is taking place just before dawn, dawn is late at this point of year, and the shops will be open shortly...]

AGENT X #9.  Agent X survives the explosion and captures the invisible man.  He dresses the invisible man up to make sure that he will be visible (since his clothes remain visible; this doesn't explain why his equipment was invisible last issue, but whatever).  Agent X agrees to give the invisible man 24 hours to prove himself innocent of Gallhager's (rather vaguely phrased) charges.  The invisible man takes Agent X to Gallhager's private yacht, paid for with a cosmetics empire that has been built on a variant of the invisibility chemical which he discovered.  (An origin flashback appears here.)  Dante and Christine show up with guns, and a stand-off takes place.  While the Gallhagers squabble, Agent X and Dante turn on them, blow up the ship, and escape together with the money that Christine had intended to use as Agent X's payment.  They agree to split it.

Characters appearing: Agent X, Christine Gallhager, Dante, the invisible man

=============

THE FIGHT-MAN ARC<br>AGENT X #10 (June 2003) by Evan Dorkin, Juan Bobillo and Marcelo Sosa
AGENT X #11 (July 2003) by Dorkin, Bobillo and Sosa

GENERAL COMMENTS:
This fabulously insane two-parter also establishes conclusively that Dorkin's 1993 FIGHT-MAN one-shot is in continuity.  The story arc covers two days.

SYNOPSIS
AGENT X #10, pp1-8.  Agent X returns to Sandi's apartment, having just completed an unseen mission where he foiled "a Chupacabra death cult performing sacrificial rituals down by the reservoir."  Sandi is not there, because she has gone to take an assignment which came in while Agent X was occupied with the cult.  She has allowed the Taskmaster to come round and watch a pay-per-view on cable.  Sandi phones to say that she is having problems; assuming that she is in trouble, Agent X races to the motel in Delta City where she is working.  Sandi is trying to kill Frank Bigelow [Fight-Man] with a sniper rifle, but can't bring herself to pull the trigger.  They pull the trigger together and then, satisfied with a job well done, have sex.

Characters: Agent X, Sandi, the Taskmaster, Fight-Man

[Evening.  The Taskmaster was watching a UFC pay-per-view, according to his dialogue.  The art in fact shows professional wrestling.  This might suggest a weekend, but then he could equally be watching a replay.  The recap page of this issue takes the form of a fax to Beverly Lacoco from the Hooded Eye recommending Agent X's services; the fax is dated 23 May 2003, and Sandi received the call earlier today, so presumably it is late May.]

AGENT X #10, pp9-22.  Agent X wakes up in the hotel room the next morning alone.  Sandi has left a message saying that she has gone to collect payment.  However, in fact they failed to kill Fight-Man (a gun being woefully inadequate to the job) and Sandi's employer, his ex-wife Beverly Lacoco, has taken her prisoner.  Lacoco phones agent X and threatens to kill Sandi if Fight-Man is not dead by midnight.  Agent X goes to Fight-Man's apartment and again fails to kill him.  Fight-Man explains that he has been banned from being a superhero because of the ludicrous amounts of collateral damage that he causes.  Fight-Man is suicidal, and quite happy to help Agent X kill him.  They spend the day trying various schemes to kill Fight-Man [the montage sequence runs through to "9.20pm"] but none of them work because of Fight-Man's incredible resistance to injury.  They give up and return to Frank's apartment, where they eat.  Frank chokes on his food, and against his better judgment Agent X saves his life.  Suddenly, a group of Delta City villains storms the apartment.

Characters: Agent X, Sandi, Beverly Lacoco, Fight-Man, the Hooded Eye, assorted Delta City villains

[The day after the previous segment, morning through to the evening.]

AGENT X #11.  Agent X and Fight-Man defeat their attackers.  Enthused by his return to action, Fight-Man takes Agent X into the city to confront the villains.  This causes mass panic, since the populace of Delta City know what happens when Fight-Man gets into costume.  Agent X and Fight-Man have a huge fight with the horde of Delta City villains allied to Beverly.  Sandi escapes in the confusion and rejoins the heroes.  Beverly uses Kirbytech to absorb the powers of some of her henchmen, and confronts Fight-Man in person.  Fight-Man is unable to fight back, because his code of honour will not allow him to hit a woman.  Fortunately, Beverly is unintentionally killed by one of her own henchmen.  With the battle over, Fight-Man attempts to arrest Agent X, on the not unreasonable grounds that he's an assassin.  Agent X and Sandi bring a building down on top of him, burying him [the same ending as in the original FIGHT-MAN one-shot, which is the running joke].

Characters: Agent X, Sandi, Beverly Lacoco, Fight-Man, the Hooded Eye, assorted Delta City villains

[Direct continuation; it appears to be dawn by the end of the story, judging from the colouring of the sky.]

===========

AGENT X #12 (August 2003) by Daniel Way and Kyle Hotz

GENERAL COMMENTS:
This was supposed to be the final issue of the series, and evidently was never rewritten once the plans changed.

SYNOPSIS
AGENT X #12, pp1-6: Dawn at the amusement park.  There is no work, and Sandi decides to take the day off.  Agent X is attacked by wannabe supervillain Mr Murder.  Murder plans to take a high-value open contract, and wants to kill Agent X to stop him getting there first.  In fact, Agent X knows nothing about the contract.  Murder knows that he can't kill Agent X because of his healing powers, so instead he mutilates him and dumps in a river, figuring that he will at least be out of commission for a few days.

Characters: Agent X, Sandi, Mr Murder

[The opening scene has dawn colouring in the sky; the closing scenes are in the middle of the night.]

AGENT X #12, pp7-17: "Morning" [presumably the next morning].  Agent X is fished out of the river, partially healed, by a surprised angler.  He makes his way back to town and establishes from an underworld contact, Chicky, that Mr Murder was talking about open contracts which TV producers Jeffrey Warren and Emil Stiller have placed on one another.  For reasons the plot declines to explain, Agent X goes to Warren's office disguised as a clown.  When Mr Murder arrives to kill him, Agent X sets off a bomb concealed in his costume, which kills Murder and Warren.  Agent X is also badly injured but, of course, survives thanks to his healing powers.

Characters: Agent X, Chicky, Jeffrey Warren, Mr Murder

[Presumably the next day.  The trees are green.  The angler has his son with him, and they're planning to spend the day together, so it's either a weekend or a school holiday.  The weather seems lovely, and the characters' clothes suggest spring or summer.]

AGENT X #12, pp18-22: "Several days and much healing later", Agent X goes to Stiller's office to claim the bounty that was offered on Warren.  Stiller refuses to pay, so Agent X kills him.  Afterwards, Agent X reflects on the danger that his friends are exposed to through association with him and, in order to protect Sandi, decides to close his agency.

Characters: Agent X, Emil Stiller

[As the caption says, it's a few days after the previous scene in order to allow Agent X to heal.  It can't be that long, though, as Agent X catches Stiller just as he's about to leave on holiday.  He says that he's going to remain on "a remote Mediterranean island" until "the dust settles" from Warren's death - perhaps it's taken Stiller a couple of days to realise that the reaction to Warren's death is more serious than he expected.]

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: Agent X
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 14, 2003 at 06:57:49:
In Reply to: Chronology review: Agent X
posted by Paul O'Brien on August 13, 2003 at 16:28:36:

Great job, Paul.  Thank you!

I have a question about the Deadpool series, as I'm missing a number of issues of that title: what was the last issue number?  The latest one I have is #68.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: Agent X
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 14, 2003 at 09:48:50:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology review: Agent X
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 14, 2003 at 06:57:49:

DEADPOOL #69 was the final issue.

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: Agent X
Posted by Peter Fabricius on August 14, 2003 at 09:50:47:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology review: Agent X
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 14, 2003 at 06:57:49:

The last issue was #69

Peter

			*	*	*

Marvel Shadows & Light 1997
Posted by David Hall on August 13, 2003 at 19:33:22:

Does anyone know where the Wolverine story in this issue occurs?  It's a one shot published in February 1997, there is a Wolverine story, a Dracula/Blade story, a captain marvel story, and a Dr. Straneg story, none of which have anything to do with each other.

On the cover, Wolverine is pictured with bone claws, but in the story itself he has metal claws.

The story consists of an assasination attempt on Wolverine by some (mostly unnamed) Hydra agents.  The only agent who is named is Simon, who has developed a new catalyst for a poison to kill Wolverine with.

A bunch of Hydra agents fill Wolverine with bullets, and Simon jabs hinm with the needle containing the poison.  Simon flees, manages to elude Wolverine, but then realizes that he dropped his pills, which have the name of the lab where the antidote is stored on them.  He goes to call the lab, but Wolverine answers, and he runs.

The story takes place in New York City, some of it downtown, some at Kennedy airport. The timeframe is a couple of hours.

Some key phrases are:

"I mean, in espionage circles, the mutant code named Wolverine is a whispered legend."

"It was rumoured that an army of soldiers was being developed with enhanced healing properties.  Hydra needed to neutralize such a threat."

This makes it sound like early days indeed, if Hydra is just finding out about the Weapon X project, but it's possible that Simon isn't in the know about such things.

I would like to place this book somewhere, but I'm not that sure where it goes.

What do you think?

Dave

			*	*	*

Joe MacTaggert
Posted by David Hall on August 13, 2003 at 22:49:23:

Moira's ex-husband is missing his first and last app. in UX 127 (where he is killed by Proteus)

Joseph "Joe" MacTaggert
UX 389-FB
UX 127

			*	*	*

Re: Joe MacTaggert
Posted by Sean Curtin on August 24, 2003 at 16:40:03:
In Reply to: Joe MacTaggert 
posted by David Hall on August 13, 2003 at 22:49:23:

> UX 127

His corpse is possessed by Proteus in this issue and the next, so UX 128 should also be considered an appearance, albeit postmortem.

-- 
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Recent X-Title order (Too Many Wolverines?)
Posted by Ron Wolfe on August 14, 2003 at 13:08:10:

I've recently returned to the X-titles after a long time of not collecting. I can't seem to place the general order, mainly because Wolverine seems to be in some conflicting places. Can someone help me understand the order here.

Specifically:

- he is at Mt. Haven, presumably dead or near dead in the most recent X-Treme X-Men (28, 29) 

- he is exploring the "World" with Cyclops and Phantomex in the recent New X-Men (142, 143, 144)

- he is at the mansion talking to Xavier about Kurt's rapid departure in Uncanny 429

			*	*	*

Re: Recent X-Title order (Too Many Wolverines?)
Posted by Jeph! on August 14, 2003 at 13:35:55:
In Reply to: Recent X-Title order (Too Many Wolverines?)
posted by Ron Wolfe on August 14, 2003 at 13:08:10:

> Can someone help me understand the order here.

I can't help you with X-Treme, because we don't have enough clues yet, but the current "New X-Men" arc takes place BEFORE the current "Uncanny" arc.

Heck, New X-Men #142-145 take place before Uncanny #423-up...

Hope that helped.  Don't ask me to slot in his appearance in his own book or X-Men Unlimited, though ... I'll go mad.  :-)

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Recent X-Title order (Too Many Wolverines?)
Posted by Ron Wolfe on August 15, 2003 at 12:14:39:
In Reply to: Re: Recent X-Title order (Too Many Wolverines?)
posted by Jeph! on August 14, 2003 at 13:35:55:

Yep, that helps. Thanks! I'm not currently picking up those two titles so you're sanity is safe 

.... for now! :)

			*	*	*

Chronology Review for Punisher (2001 ongoing series) issues 1-8.
Posted by Kevin  on August 14, 2003 at 17:10:51:

Punisher, Vol. 4 (6*), #1
Well Come on Everybody and Lets get Together Tonight!
Written by Garth Ennis
Drawn by Steve Dillon

*:  Though its listed inside the comic as being Volume 4, I tend to believe the MCP, which has it listed as volume 6, (seeing as Marvel can sometimes forget what volume of a title theyre on).  

Also published this month, (just for references sake, its June 2001):  Avengers #43, Iron Man #43, New Xmen #115, Cap. America #44, FF #44, Captain Marvel #20, Hulk #29, PP:SM #32, ASM #32, Thunderbolts #53.

Appearances:  Punisher, Det. Martin Soap, The Russian

Synopsis:  ALL EVENTS HAPPEN IN ONE NIGHT.

Punishers back to business as usual with this new, ongoing series.  The majority of the issue he spends 1 evening killing mobsters and other criminal scum. In between killing sessions, we cut to scenes where we see what has happened to Martin Soap.  At the end of the last Punisher miniseries, he was appointed to Commissioner of Police, (after exposing the last Commissioner and Mayor in a sex scandal).  But we learn it didnt last more than a few short weeks:  Soap was framed with a prostitute, (he was set up by other cops) and he was kicked out of office before he had a chance to do any reforms.  Hes placed back in charge of the infamous Punisher Task Force of which he is the only member, (even his old partner from the last miniseries, Lt. Molly Von Richthofen, isnt here:  she gave up police business after breaking the scandal about the mayor to the press, and has sent a letter to Soap saying she plans on staying on permanent vacation in the Caribbean).  

Soap is about to kill himself later on that night: we see him in his car on a desolate street somewhere, putting his gun in his mouth, crying, when Punisher pops up in his back seat and tells him not to do it.  Punisher says he heard about how Soap got tarnished in the press, and tells him he has a choice:  Seeing as how Soap is on the Punisher Task Force, but hell never succeed in capturing Frank, Frank proposes they work together:  theyre both honest crimefighters.  Soap isnt so sure at first:  he doesnt want to be linked to a professed killer.  But on the other hand, Frank does kill only criminals.  Soap says hell have to think it over.  Punisher leaves him alone.

Soap goes to think about it in his favorite drinking hole: Luckys Bar.  This is the same place he and Lt. Richthofen hung out in the last Punisher miniseries.  Let me just say that here, it becomes the place of a reaccuring joke: who will Soap get drunk and sleep with tonight?  In this issue, an older woman comes in and he buys her a drink.  They both get drunk, and are rambling about their pitiful youths.  Soap says he grew up in an orphanage; that he was left on the orphanages doorstep as a baby in New Jersey.  She says What a coincidence: I got pregnant when I was 15, and my parents forced me to leave my baby on the doorstep of an orphanage in that area, around that same time  The bartender is listening to the two drunks talk, and theyre so plastered, they no longer hear what the other has said, and they end up going back to her place together.  The bartender just smiles and rolls his eyes.  The subtle hinting being that Soap has gone off to have sex with his mother, (too drunk to figure out its his mother).  This type of reaccuring joke will pop up every few issues.  Garth Ennis is a sick and twisted man. 

Near the end of the issue, as Punisher is finishing up his killing spree for the night, he is knocked out cold by a surprise attack from a huge figure in a trenchcoat.  He wakes up to find that the dark, shadowy figure is The Russian who Frank, (and we the readers) thought was dead.  Frank cut off his head in issue 11 of the last miniseries.  Frank finds hes all tied up.  The Russian takes off his trenchcoat to reveal that hes been cybernetically brought back to life:  His head was surgically reattached, and now we see wires and technical gadgets sticking out from his neck.  Also, we see he has a pair of humongous breasts now.  He says for his body to be revived, he had to undergo a large amount of highly experimental hormonal implants.  Its hilarious, but proves once again that Garth Ennis is one sick man.

Anyway, the Russian reveals he was reconstructed by a secret organization so that they can put his killing skills to use in Black Ops type missions.  He agreed to work for this group, but he only asked in return for one thing:  one last chance to go and get payback against the Punisher.

Its then that Frank realizes hes woken up in a high up place.  The Russian shows him that they are on top of the Empire State Building.  He says that he learned from the newspaper that this is where Frank started his last killing spree, (as seen in Issue 1 of the last miniseries, when he started to fight Ma Gnuccis gang).  So the Russian is doing what Frank did to Ma Gnuccis son:  hes tossing him off the Empire State Building, (which he promptly does).  As Frank soars to the Earth below, its To Be Continued?

References:  Punisher (serving as narrator) thinks to himself in one scene, Been back in Brooklyn since the winter.  Citys way too clean for scum.  So I followed the herds back to their old breeding grounds.  

Which I take to mean we are now in Spring or Summer, (probably summer), and hes been living in Brooklyn, (apparently the seedy side of New York?) since last winter, (which was perhaps when the last miniseries with Ma Gnuccis gang happened)?

Punisher, Vol. 4 (6), #2
Does whatever a Spider can
Written by Garth Ennis
Drawn by Steve Dillon

Appearances:  Punisher, Det. Martin Soap, The Russian, Spiderman, New Character:  General Kreigkopf.

Synopsis: EVENTS OF THIS ISSUE HAPPEN OVER 2 CONSECUTIVE NIGHTS.

Pg. 1-18:  CONTINUES FROM WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE.  Punisher is sailing through the air to the ground below, when hes snagged on a web by Spiderman.  Spiderman couldnt make out who it was, and thought this was some suicidal guy jumping to his death, but upon pulling him back up on the roof, (on the Empire States Building) Spidey confronts the Punisher, asking what murderous scheme are you up to now?  Just then, the Russian shows up to finish off what he started:  He punches Spiderman out of the way sending him flying off the roof, and chases Punisher around on the rooftop, (poor Franks doing his best to avoid the now super strong cybernetically and breast-enhanced Russian).  Spiderman swings back, only to be knocked off the roof again, only to swing back again, and the Russian knocks him out with a good strong punch, (thats how much his strength has increased).  

On a monitor far, far away, a group of scientists are watching the unfolding battle through the Russians now cybernetic eyes.  Theyre commenting that hes performing above expectations.  Theyre suddenly visited by a military figure dressed in black.  This is General Kreigkopf, a rogue U.S. army general who well learn more about later.  Kreigkopf comments to the scientists that the Russian BETTER be performing well:  hes put a lot of money in reconstructing the savage killer.

Meanwhile, Frank is getting desperate, so he picks the now unconscious Spidey off the floor, and holds him in front of him.  The Russians fists are aiming for Franks head, but Frank just keeps using poor Spidey as a shield. Reaching down to Spideys arm, he finds the mechanism that shoots the webs, and manages to get it to shoot a web in the Russians mouth.  The Russian is gaging and stumbling around, trying to claw the webbing off, and gets to close to the edge of the roof.  Frank finishes the job by pushing the Russian off, who falls all the way to the street below, and crashes on through into the subway system below, where he is immediately hit by an incoming subway.  

A groggy Spiderman wakes up a few moments later, mumbling, What happened?  to which Punisher replies, We had a team up.  You were great. And walks away.

Pg. 19-22:  TAKES PLACE THE NEXT NIGHT.  Punisher meets up with Det. Soap in the Luckys Bar.  Soap now has a new outlook on life, (after a night of hot loving with his mother *groan).  He figures he is best off helping Frank kill criminals, (the police arent going to help Soap catch the Punisher, so Soap might as well help Frank).  

Frank asks Soap to use his Punisher Task Force clearance to find out who the Russian turned to to get clearance to enter the USA and attack him, (during the fight, the Russian hinted the New York police were given orders to stay away from patrolling the Empire State Building area last night).  Soap says hell get right on it.

Meanwhile, down in the subway, police investigators are going over the subway which ran over the Russian.  The Subway engineer who was driving is in shock, and he can only mutter, they were hugethey were huge a reference to the giant Russians breasts.  But there is no body.  It appears the damaged Russian managed to drag himself away

References:  On the news on TV in the bar, there is a subplot building.  A newscaster talks about how France is going against the U.N. and other nations wishes, and will be testing a new Nuclear Bomb on a remote Pacific Island.  They are being condemned by nations around the world.  The Newscaster says, The test is scheduled for next Monday, at 8:00 pm, E.S.T.  So its not Monday, but Mondays just around the corner

As Frank and Soap discuss their first assignment working together, Soap asks Frank, (about the Russian):  You killed him last year, didnt you?   That was in the last miniseries, Punisher Vol. 3, (5) issue 11.  Which took place, last year if we believe Soaps comment.

Punisher, Vol. 4 (6), #3
American Ugly
Written by Garth Ennis
Drawn by Steve Dillon

Appearances:  Punisher, The Russian, General Kreigkopf.

Synopsis:  TAKES PLACE OVER A COUPLE OF DAYS, STARTING WITH PROBABLY THE NEXT DAY AFTER LAST ISSUE.

Pg. 1-6:  Det. Soap was able use his Punisher Task Force Clearance to do a little snooping, and to give Frank a name on which police officer put the word out to not be around the Empire State Building the other night, so that the Russian could make his attack on Frank.  That man is the Deputy to the Police Commissioner, and Frank is now having a word with him: hes dangling the poor guy over a roof several stories up.  The Deputy says Frank doesnt kill cops, but Frank gets rough enough with him that the guy spills his beans:  He says they got a phone call from a high ranking official in Washinton D.C.   This guy also reveals that the guy pulling the Russians strings is believed to be a notorious ex U.S. army general named Kreigkopf.  The Commish Deputy then reveals the source in Washington who gave the order that allowed clearance for the Russians attack on Frank, (telling Frank, but not us the audience: its a surprise).  

Frank walks away going over this bit of info.  He knows that the Gen. Kreigkopf is a Rogue General in charge of a remote island in the south Pacific called Grand Nixon Island.  When the General was still a legal American General, he handled a lot of covert operations, did a lot of dirty deeds for which politicians in Washington still owe him favors.  Thus, while he was kicked out of the army for brutality, hes been allowed to set up a criminal haven on the island.  From there, he sends rogue mercenaries out on mission around the world, lending his soldiers out to tyrants and armies who need their services.  Frank decides to go pay him a visit.

Pg. 7-8:  THIS SHORT SEGMENT IS PROBABLY THE NEXT DAY, GOING BY THE NEXT SEGMENT.

On Grand Nixon Island, Gen. Kreigkopf greets a French Capitan, (actually, I think the story never gives his rank, so Ill just call him Mon Capitan), whos landed his plane on the island.  The French Govt., in a bid to test their new Nuclear weapon, has had to resort to stopping here for refueling, (since no other place would grant them clearance).   They French are paying Kreigkopf a hefty amount of money to use their base as a pitstop.  Kreigkopf stops with pleasant exchanges immediately: he tells the French guy he cant stand the French, saying we shouldve not liberated France and let Germany have it),  and he tells the guy theyll give him fuel, but the French plane has got to leave as soon as possible.

Pg. 9-22:  THIS IS DEFINENTLY THE NEXT DAY AFTER PAGES 1-6.

Frank is on a charter plane flying to Grand Nixon Island.  The solo pilot of this old tugboat of a plane is a convict who carries criminals to and from the island.  Frank needs him to fly the plane, (the old piece of junk is barely holding together) but he wants to kill the pilot: he wont shut about and keeps trying to have lively conversation with Frank.  As they approach the island, the old plane finally has a blow out in one of the engines, and they barely manage to land on the island.  They are immediately greeted by mercenaries loyal to Kreigkopf.  Frank walks away from the crowd, deciding to go have a look around.  One of the mercenaries asks the pilot who this new guy to the island is; the pilot says he never got the guys name, but on the trip over here, he mentioned something about wanting to meet Kreigkopf in person

In a quick cut to another scene, Kreigkopf is checking on his black market scientists, who are repairing the damaged Russian, (who managed to escape New York City).  They activate the Russian, who asks for another chance to go after the Punisher, but Kreigkopf tells the Russian he has a different mission for him.

Frank, meanwhile, is in one of the seedy makeshift bars which litter this island, listening over the drunk mercenaries talk, trying to get clues.  Suddenly, the pilot and the mercenaries from early barge in and demand Frank come with them.  Frank can tell hes in trouble, so he grabs a stray gun from one of the mercs, and kills a bunch of them before fleeing out the window.  He heads into the jungle, knowing that theyll come after him

References:  In the scene on pages 7-8, after Kreigkopf leaves the French Capitan alone, Kreigkopfs right hand man says to the French General, Youre A-bomb test is set for Monday night, isnt it?  and he then makes a comment that well have you refueled and ready to go by noon which I take to mean noon-the next day  So if theyre sending him on his way the next day,  to go explode the French nuke, then tomorrow is Monday?

Punisher says on page 9, (on the plane over to the island):  23 hours and 4 refueling stops of this hes referring to the pilots constant yapping.  So this scene is 23 hours later after pg. 6, (thus, its the next day).

Punisher, Vol. 4 (6), #4
Dirty Work
Written by Garth Ennis
Drawn by Steve Dillon

Appearances:  Punisher, General Kreigkopf, The Russian

Synopsis:  HAPPENS ALL ON ONE DAY, THE FOLLOWING DAY AFTER LAST ISSUE.

Punisher is looking at the Rising Sun coming up over the jungle of this tropical island, and he says, The idiots waited till dawn.  So its the next day.  Hes referring to the fact that the mercenaries didnt want to risk searching for Frank in the darkness.  This has given Frank plenty of time to set up booby traps in the jungle.

As a team of mercs fans out and searchs, Frank kills them off one by one, till he captures one in a pit, and forces the guy to talk, telling what Kreigkopfs plan is, (Frank noticed a jumbo 747 plane on the runway, and wants to know what its going to be used for).

Meanwhile, we see Kreigkopf discussing the final stages of his plan with a company of soldiers and with the now repaired Russian.  Theyre to board the 747 jet and fly to Brussels in Europe.  Thats where a conference between E.U. leaders is happening.  Theyre supposedly talking about ways to deal with Kreigkopf and his island of terrorists.  It seems the E.U. is tired of the terrorists interfering with commerce, and since the U.S. wont do anything about them, (too many U.S. politicians are afraid or owe Kreigkopf) then the E.U. will.  But Kreigkopf plans on having this company of soldiers, (led by the super strong Russian) invade the meeting and kill everyone there.  Yes, its a suicide mission for these soldiers, (but theyre all crazed exmilitary types who could not stop fighting wars, so they dont mind).  And itll send a strong message to all governments: Dont mess with Grand Nixon Island.  As they load up the plane, Kriegkopf gets to thinking about this new guy that flew over yesterday:  his men are radioing in telling that theyre being picked off one by one out in the jungle.  Kreigkopf begins to fear that this stranger to his island is the Punisher, (whom he allowed the Russian to go after in New York, so that the Russian would be loyal to him).

Meanwhile, Punisher finishes hearing all this from the captured merc, he asks one last question:  Wheres the fuel depot on this island?  The merc tells Frank its just beyond the runway strip out at their makeshift airport.  (The mercenary dies of his injuries from the pit trap a few moments later).  Frank decides hell have to stop this.  

As the 747 is loaded up and starts to take off down the runway, Frank appears out of the jungle a the end of the runway, just standing there.  The pilot of the plane, (who is the guy who flew Frank over here) along with Kreigkopfs second in command, are both in the cockpit, and they decide to run over Frank.  As they approach, Frank pulls out a grenade launcher and fires into one of the jets engines.  The plane swerves, momentarily takes off the ground, only to fall back down to Earth just beyond the runway-straight into the fuel depot.  It sets off a massive explosion which is felt all over the island.  <p>From out of the wreckage of the plane, only one survivor emerges:  The Russian.  Hes survived the crash because hes mostly cybernetic and superstrong, but hes much uglier, (much of his skin is melted).  Those hormonal implant breasts dont look so hot anymore  

Kreigkopf marches back out there to see what happened: upon realizing his plane has been destroyed, he orders his men to commandeer the French Capitans plane: hell put it to use for his own purposes.  And he tells the rest of his men to go out and bring back Franks head, (hes now sure that this is the Punisher:  who else could be racking up such a high body count?)

References:  none really, other than that its the next day, as mentioned in Franks comment on page 1, The Idiots waited till the dawn.

I will point out that this issue was published the same month that the Sept. 11th attacks happened.  The fact that this is an island of terrorists, and a giant 747 crashed in a huge fireball made this issue, (and the next two), feel really awkward.  But the stories were written and drawn months earlier.  Not much that could be done about it.

Punisher, Vol. 4 (6), #5
No Limits
Written by Garth Ennis
Drawn by Steve Dillon

Appearances:  Punisher, General Kreigkopf, The Russian

Synopsis:  THIS ISSUE COVERS A PERIOD OF 2 WEEKS, SEE BELOW.

Page 1-18:  SAME DAY AS LAST ISSUE.

Kreigkopf tells the French Capitan (at gun point) that theyre going to take his plane and drop the French nuke on Brussels.  The poor French crew was about to take off to drop the nuke on the uninhabited island somewhere in the South Pacific.  Kreifkopf explains that he's sending some of his men with the French plane's crew, to make sure they dont fail. Kreigkopf tells the Russian to load the nuke onto the plane, and after that, he must go out in the jungle and help with the search teams in capturing the Punisher.

As the plane starts to warm up to leave, (and Kreigkopf and the Russian are walking away) Frank bursts back out of the jungle nearby, (where he was hiding), figuring its now or never.  He shoots all the men around Kreigkopf, who calmly turns around to greet Frank.  Kreigkopf tells Frank that he lacks focus:  Frank is just like the rest of these mercenaries here: men whove fought in wars but are unable to stop killing.  Kreigkopf calmly explains that hes a man with vision, and Frank should be standing behind him, helping him out.  Frank shoots Kreigkopf once, (only wounding him) and runs past him down to the plane, which he manages to board, just as it starts to take off down the runway.  The Russian sees Frank shoot Kreigkopf, and runs and grabs onto one of the wheels of the plane, climbing on board.

Inside, Frank quickly kills all of the mercenaries who were guarding over the French crew, but Frank tells the French Capitan to prep the bomb.  The French Capitan starts to refuse, but one stern look from Frank changes his mind.  Just then, the Russian bursts through the floor, ready to battle Frank again.  Frank manages to hold him off for a minute or so, and the instant the bomb is ready, he lowers the back tail door, and throws a switch that jettisons the nuke out the rear exit.  As it flies out, Frank latches a chain that the nuke was attached to to the Russian, who gets jerked out the back end of the plane as well.  Frank tells the pilot that theyd better fly as fast away from here as possible.

Yep, the Nuke, (with the Russian attached) falls to Grand Nixon Island below, where the wounded Gen. Kreigkopf is looking up in horror at the approaching bomb.  The island goes kaboom.

Inside the plane, the French Capitan grabs one of the dead mercenaries guns off the floor, and aims it at Frank, saying hes arresting him for the murder of the men on the island below.  Frank tells the guy not to be an idiot: he tells the French guy that if he brings Frank in to justice, theyll be a lot of questions.  But if he lets Frank go, the French Capitan can go back to France a hero: hell be the man who destroyed Grand Nixon Island and rid the world of that scourge. You can tell the French guy likes the second option better

Pg. 19-22:   NARRATIVE CAPTION READS: 2 WEEKS LATER  

2 weeks later, Punisher visits a man in Washinton D.C.   Its night, and its in a darkened room, but we are meant to take this to be the President of the U.S.  (we never see the guys face, but it looks suspiciously like the Oval office, but its unclear).  The President is going over a newspaper which tells the the French Capitan has been promoted and declared a national hero in France.  The President is sickened by the way things turned out.

Suddenly, Frank is in the room with him, (the President didnt hear him come in) and he tells him that he knocked out the Presidents guards. Frank tells him that he heard the order to the NYC police to stay away from the Empire State Building came from here, (this is the surprise hinted at in Issue 3).  Frank says hes unsure of what dirt General Kreigkopf had on him, but hes dead now, so The President neednt worry about him anymore.  He warns the President that since he let Kreigkopf do whatever he wanted, that that means our Commander in Chief must be guilty of something which Kreigkopf knew about.  So Frank tells him to NEVER, NEVER come after him again, or Frank will come back to visit, in a less friendly mood.  Frank leaves him alone, the President just sits there mumbling S-s-security!!!

References:  none, really.  But can you imagine a comic published the month after the Sept. 11th attacks in which the Punisher threatens the President of the USA?  

Punisher, Vol. 4 (6), #6
Do Not Fall Down in New York City
Written by Garth Ennis
Drawn by Steve Dillon

Appearances:  Punisher, New Character: Joe Perrett.

Synopsis:  HAPPENS IN 1 DAY.

This is a story about the down trodden and about how bad things happen to good people.  Its a solo issue story, and probably the best story Garth Ennis ever wrote for this title.

The issue starts with Punisher walking the streets of New York City during the day.  He walks past sick looking homeless man on the ground whos mumbling, I just want to go home and who has a sign next to him that reads, INFECTED WITH AIDS BY TRANSFUSION, PLEASE HELP.   A moment later, some policeman come by and haul the homeless guy up off the ground and take him away for loitering.  Frank narrates to us that if you fall down in New York City, no one will be there to help lift you back up.  

Franks looking for a man thats the topic of the newspapers and news shows.  As Frank narrates for us, we learn this man is named Joe Perrett, and he killed his ex-wife and his own kids.  We learn that he lost his job for no good reason, then he lost his wife, who remarried, then he lost his kids in the custody case.  Bad luck and Society dealt him a harsh hand, and in a moment of insanity and rage, he killed his exwife and kids.  The problem is: this man is one of Franks old Vietnam war buddies.  Joe Perrett even saved Franks life once in the middle of combat.  In Punishers mind, we hear dialogue from when they were friends in Vietnam.  Frank narrates to us that Joe wasnt like the rest of them, (himself included) over there in Vietnam, who let the war get to them; let it turned them into antisocial hermits or raging psychopaths.  Joe wanted to come back and live a normal life with a wife and family, (something Frank can relate to all too well).

Meanwhile, Joe Perrett is now inside a small caf on some street corner, drinking his umpteenth cup of coffee, staring at a picture of his wife and kids.  He mumbles, How could someone do that to that poor family.  Hes obviously disassociated himself with his own crime, and is sitting there mourning.  The waitress comes over and asks if he wants his check.  When he refuses, she gets a little mad, saying hes been sitting here drinking coffee for the last 3 hours, and that shed like to get some new customers in here.  He asks for more time, but she demands he get out, so he pulls out his gun, (the same one he used on his family) and kills her and flees.

Meanwhile, Frank pauses in front of a TV store, where on the news they show what is another shooting at a small New York Caf by the man wanted for killing his family.  Frank is starting to get concerned.  If Joe is captured alive, hell be put on Court TV and become a national spectacle: a giant media circus.  He then remembers an old conversation he had with Joe:  Joe, (like Frank) lived in New York all his life, but never once went to see the Statue of Liberty, saying its just something for the tourists to go see.  Joe said he always wanted to go see it.  Frank figures its worth a shot.

Joe is down at the pier, (where people get on ferrys to go out to the statue).  As Joe sits there, a family of tourists comes along, and its wet and foggy outside now in this scene, and the dad is urging his wife and kids to look out at this national treasure, The Statue of Liberty and gaze in wonder.  His video game obsessed kids and wife who are tired of getting rained on want to leave.  His wife says, The Statues not going anywhere, lets go.

Joe gets up and walks over and says, Nice wife and kids to the man, and the family stare at him, knowing somethings not quite right with this man.  Joe pulls out a gun and aims it at the Dad, saying he had his own family once.  The wife pleads with him to let them go, saying Thats my husband, which hes aiming at.  Her plea strikes a nerve with him, and he finally recalls what he did just the other day to his own family. He tells them to go away, and the family flees.  Tears stream down Joes face, and he tosses his gun away out into the water at the edge of the pier.  Turning back around, he is shot once in the chest.  Joe looks up to see who his attacker is, and recognizes his old friend Frank immediately.  He stumbles forward, and collapses into Franks arms, where he dies.  As he does so, Frank says, Its okay, Joe.  Its okay.  Ive caught you.

The end.  

References:  Theres a family of tourists in New York City in the scene near the end, so uh, would that be a strong hint that its summer, when the kids are out of school?  My advice:  Stick issues 1-6 in the summer before Sept. 11th.  Thats when these issues were published: in the Summer and Fall of 2001.  But you can place them where you will.

Also, as noted above, its raining in the final scene with the tourists and Frank and Joe.

On a final note about this issue, let me say that in the letters page section, (and do note that this is November of 2001), Garth Ennis apologizes for the bleak tone of this story, and says the idea came to him after running across the homeless man featured at the start of the tale, upon his walking the streets of New York a year and a half prior.  He says that yes, its bleak, but that only Frank would have this bleak of a vision of New York, (his family was killed there after all), but Garth says that in the wake of the Sept. 11th attacks, he himself has seen a side of New Yorkers he never saw before.  When the people of New York came together in the wake of the Sept. 11th attacks, he learned that if you Fall Down in New York City, there are many people here who will lift you back up on your feet again.

Punisher, Vol. 4 (6), #7
The Punisher Plan
Written by Steve Dillon
Drawn by Steve Dillon

Appearances:  Punisher, New Character: Paul Rosso

Synopsis:  THIS IS THE NUFF SAID ISSUE, PUBLISHED DECEMBER 2001.  HAPPENS OVER TWO DAYS.

With this issue, Garth Ennis goes on vacation for a few months, and so this issue is both written and drawn by Steve Dillon.

Pg. 1-6:  DAY 1.  Punisher tries to kill a mob boss named Paul Rosso.  He kills all of Rossos lackeys, but Rosso escapes in a car.

Pg. 7-22:  DAY 2.  We know its the day after because on a newspaper headline, it details how Frank shot up the place trying to kill Rosso.  The newspaper headline on page 7 reads, Mobsters slain, Punisher suspected. Gang Boss Paul Rosso goes into hiding

By the end of the issue, Punisher catches up to Paul at a safehouse and kills him.  Thats it.

See?!?!  I can be simple when it comes to my plot synopsis!!!  I just have to have a simple plot

References:  none, other then the newspaper headline detailed above.  

And let me say: Ive not really mentioned much about the weather or the clothing people wear because Steve Dillon the artist doesnt seem to notice.  People on the street can be wearing short sleeves, yet the Punisher and the mobsters will be wearing trenchcoats, so you cant tell how warm or cold it is outside.  He also rarely shows trees in his urban landscapes, (but when he does, they always have leafs on them, at least so far they do) and Ive yet to see one full moon, or any moon for that matter!

Punisher, Vol. 4 (6), #8
When Frank Sleeps
Written by Ron Zimmerman
Drawn by Mike Lilly

Appearances:  Punisher

Synopsis:  ENTIRE ISSUE, EXCEPT FOR THE END, IS A DREAM.  SO ALL EVENTS HAPPEN IN THE COURSE OF ONE NIGHT.  

In this dream, Frank decides to ask Nick Fury for a favor, who kindly introduces Frank to Mr. Fantastic, who grants Frank access to the Fantastic Fours time machine.  Frank goes back in time, kills all the mobsters in Chicago of the 1930s, including Al Capone.  At the end, he wakes up, and it was all a dream, (so I guess the last page is the only part thats real).

References:  None, but man this story made my head hurt.  

You know, I just noticed that for the single issues that happen in 1 day which I love, (like Issue 6), Ill go into great detail, but if the story is a stinker like this one, Ill be brief.  

It looks like I have 2 more batches of reviews for Punisher which should catch me up to date, and then I have reviews for the most recent story arcs in Hulk and Daredevil.  Then Ill be caught up completely.

			*	*	*

Uncanny #351-352, X-Men #71, and Daredevil #371
Posted by Jeph! on August 15, 2003 at 01:43:34:

Emboldened by the warm welcome my UX #355 map received, I'm pressing on to tackle the interweaving of UX #351-352, X #71, and DD #371.

X-Men #71 takes place, apparently, over the course of one day  beginning at breakfast, continuing into an afternoon shopping spree (where it's announced on TV that the Heroes have Returned!) [see "Heroes Reborn: the Return" #1-4], and ending with Scott and Jean getting in a cab and heading to the airport, to fly to Alaska.  On the final page, Wolverine challenges Marrow to a fight.

Uncanny #351 occurs in one day, and every single scene has time documentation  the issue begins at 5:02 am, and ends at 8:18 pm.  It's "six days" since Cecelia started bunking at the X-Mansion, and her first  and last  day trying to reclaim her normal life as a doctor.  We also look in on Scott and Jean's flight, and it's 9:43 am.

Uncanny #352 takes place in one day as well, and since the majority of the issue focuses on Scott and Jean's flight, we can assume that it's the same day as UX #351.  (A flight from NYC to Alaska, while lengthy, doesn't take more than 24 hours  besides, they only make it to Manitoba before emergency-landing.)  Since UX #351 ended at 8:18 pm, we can assume that this issue picks up after that, and occurs in the evening  and the night skies (and sunset in Nevada, where it's 6:18 pm) support that.

Daredevil #371 takes place on the same day as UX #351, apparently beginning in the morning and ending at midnight.  People read papers blaring the news of the Heroes' Return, so this appears to be the day after they return.

Now, the final pages of X #71 are what interests me.  UX #351 establishes that the Summers' were already in-flight at 9:43 am  and yet when they left in X #71 (pp.21-22), it was after an apparently full day.  So, unless they slept overnight at the airport (which isn't likely given Scott's recent surgery), I'd assume that they simply left the morning of their flight  placing a gap between pp.20 and 21 of X #71.

This would seem to be confirmed by DD #371's newspaper headlines, which imply that DD #371 and UX #351  and Scott and Jean's flight  take place the day AFTER the Heroes Returned  which was shown live on TV on X #71 p.17.

So I'm placing X #71, p.21-22, on the same day as UX #351.  By the way, since Cecelia is present on p.21, this means the Summers leave for their flight between 5:14 am, when Cecelia awakens and dresses, and 5:40 am, when she leaves the mansion.

(X #71 p.23, a page unattached to the rest of the issue's story, leads directly into Wolverine's fight with Marrow in X #72.  Since "days" separate UX #352 and X #72, I'm creating a several-day gap between p.22 and 23 of X #71.)

Now, onto DD #371.  It begins with DD seeking help from Dr. Reyes for the gunshot wound he suffered in earlier issues.  The issue implies that it's early morning after DD receives treatment, but UX #351's time references place DD's treatment beginning at 3:20 pm.  I'm inclined to go with UX #351's specific time references, rather than DD's vague references to morning.  Some scenes with Karen Page heavily imply that it's morning, but either these scenes take place out of order (p.3 occurs before p.1, in other words, which I try to avoid) or the morning references have to be ignored or rationalized.

That all said, here's my notes on how it all fits together.

X-Men #71 pp.1-20
This issue implies that Scott and Jean leave for their flight (pp.21-22) in the afternoon of the same day as the rest of the issue  but given events in UX #351 that place their flight at 9:43 am that's impossible.  Pp.1-20 must take place the previous day.

Uncanny #351 pp.1-2
5:02-5:14 am.  Cecelia says she's been at the mansion for "six days" since arriving in X-Men #70.

X-Men #71 pp.21-22
Scott and Jean leave to catch their flight  a flight we see them on in UX #351-352.  Unless they slept over at the airport, they must have left that same day  and UX #351 p.7 places them in the air at 9:43 am  so they must have left in the morning.  Cecilia is present to see them off, putting it sometime between UX #351 p.2 (5:14 am), where Cece awakens, and p.4 (5:40 am), where she leaves for the day.  There's a 14-minute gap between pp.2-3, and a 12-minute gap between pp.3-4  X #71 pp.21-22 could fit in either gap, but since Logan is driving Cecelia into the city on p.3 because a "cab would cost you a fortune", it's likely that Cece missed her opportunity to share Scott and Jean's cab  if they hadn't left yet, she likely WOULD have shared a cab with them.  Therefore, X #71 pp.21-22 occur between pp.2-3 of UX #351.

Uncanny #351 pp.3-20
5:28 am-3:20 pm.  Cecelia attempts to return to work, with mixed results  she is told to operate on Pyro, and asked for help from Daredevil.

Daredevil #371 pp.1-2
Pp.1-2 of this issue finish up the scene from UX #351 pp.18-20 where Dr. Reyes treats Daredevil's gunshot wound.  Later on in the issue, we're given more evidence that X #71 pp.1-20 occurred the day before  in DD #371 p.4, the newspaper's headlines read "Heroes Return!"  and given that UX #351 places this scene at 3:20pm or later, unless it's a late-late edition, the heroes returned yesterday.  (And we see it reported as breaking news on TV in X #71 p.17.)  By the way, this issue implies that pp.1-9 take place early in the morning, but evidence from UX #351 makes that impossible.

Daredevil #371 p.3, p.4 panel 1
Karen mentions here that it's "first thing in the morning", but she could be misjudging time  she has a large hangover, and could very well have slept in.  (Which would explain why she missed DD's call at 7 am.)

Uncanny #341 pp.21-22
4:39-5:55 pm.  Cecelia is fired after accidentally letting Pyro loose.

Daredevil #371 p.4 panels 2-3, pp.5-22
On p.4, DD mentions that Karen is an hour and a half late.  He also says that he called her at 7am, but given that UX #351 places his treatment at 3:20pm, he must have called several times.  The rest of the issue takes place over more than two hours, as DD mediates a domestic dispute for at least that long.  For the sake of simplicity it can all fit between 5:55-8:10 pm, two hours and fifteen minutes.  A scene with Karen at Tiffany's on pp.8-9 claims to be "just after breakfast", but I read this as a "Breakfast at Tiffany's joke.

Uncanny #351 p.23
8:10-8:18 pm, as Cece returns to the X-Mansion and falls asleep.

Uncanny #352
This issue also takes place on the day of Scott and Jean's flight, so the same day as UX #351.  UX #352 seems to take place entirely in the evening/night, so it could very well take place entirely after UX #351, which ends at 8:18 pm that same day.  An 11-plus hour flight from New York to Manitoba isn't out of the question if they had a stopover somewhere.

Daredevil #371 p.23
Takes place at midnight that night.  Cameo by Nate Grey.

X-Men #71 p.23
Days after the rest of the issue, and the same day as X #72, Wolverine challenges Marrow in the abandoned Danger Room.

Thoughts?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Uncanny #351-352, X-Men #71, and Daredevil #371
Posted by Jeph! on August 16, 2003 at 02:37:44:
In Reply to: Uncanny #351-352, X-Men #71, and Daredevil #371
posted by Jeph! on August 15, 2003 at 01:43:34:

The outpouring of replies to this topic makes me ecstatically happy.  Paul, this is the start of a CALENDAR here, you should be doing cartwheels.

In practical MCP terms, what the above post means is that Storm's and Cecelia Reyes' chronologies require a small adjustment  Since X #71 pp.21-22 takes place between pp.2-3 of UX #351, and Storm and Cece appear in both halves of UX #351 as well as the X #71 pages, their chronology entries, which currently both look like this:

...
X 70
X 71
UX 351
X 72
...

should look like this:

...
X 70
X 71
*UX 351
*X 71
UX 351
X 72
...

By the way, in case it becomes an issue, the blond male on p.22 of X #71 has to be Cannonball, because in UX #351 p.3, Cece mentions that Iceman, the other blond man at the mansion, is still asleep.

I'll start a listing of who's in which panel of UX #355 and AF2 #9 later on this weekend, once I've gotten drunk enough to handle it.  ;-)

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Uncanny #351-352, X-Men #71, and Daredevil #371
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 16, 2003 at 21:17:03:
In Reply to: Uncanny #351-352, X-Men #71, and Daredevil #371
posted by Jeph! on August 15, 2003 at 01:43:34:

Good stuff here, Jeph, and thanks.  I'm not quite ready for it yet, but I should be tackling this soon.  I did review my rough notes for this and found that UX 354-FB, featuring Sauron, works into this day as well.

Then there's the ton of other issues and flashbacks that tied into the return of the heroes and will end up within a few days of HR:R 4 on the calendar.  Can't wait to tackle that one.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Psylocke & Meggan
Posted by David all on August 16, 2003 at 16:20:04:

I have a question.  There are no appearances listd for Meggan before NM @2, and there is nothing listed for Psylocke between SSM&CB 234 and NM @2.  Is this data already compiled, and just not yet added to the MCP, or does someone need to go back to the Second Captain Britain series, etc., and compile this? 

I notice this info is included in Captain Britain's MCP listing, but not the other two characters.

(I don't want to spend the time, unless it still needs to be done, in which case I would.)

Dave

			*	*	*

Re: Psylocke & Meggan
Posted by Administrator on August 16, 2003 at 16:52:53:
In Reply to: Psylocke & Meggan
posted by David all on August 16, 2003 at 16:20:04:

I hope Jeph York will post something shortly.

			*	*	*

Re: Psylocke & Meggan
Posted by Jeph! on August 16, 2003 at 16:56:02:
In Reply to: Psylocke & Meggan
posted by David all on August 16, 2003 at 16:20:04:

That data is all compiled by me, but some of it has yet to be strictly organized and submitted to the MCP.

I've been sporadically posting ten-issue spurts of Captain Britain's old stuff (VERY sporadically lately)  -- I'm up to Hulk Comic now, so any missing "Super Spider-Man" info has been submitted and will be up in a future update.

Hopefully I'll be posting all the UK books' info by the end of the year, and the gaps you point out will be plugged.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Psylocke & Meggan
Posted by David Hall on August 16, 2003 at 17:13:43:
In Reply to: Re: Psylocke & Meggan
posted by Jeph! on August 16, 2003 at 16:56:02:

Thanks Jeph!

That will save me from a lot of work!  I'm looking forward to reading your updates.

Dave

			*	*	*

X-Men #65 and the Heroes Reborn Universe
Posted by Dimadick on August 17, 2003 at 03:53:33:

After Jeph's recent analysis of issues of the X-titles around the Operation Zero Tolerance crossover and the Heroes Return mini-series I started revisiting some issues of the time. Starting with X-Men #65, which is the beginning of the crossover and the issue Jeph proposed as the beginning of the calendar.

I noticed than not only that issues' position in a timeline of events of the mainstream Marvel universe is relatively easy to conclude from numerous references in other titles but also its relation to events in the Heroes Reborn pocket universe.

The first three pages of the issue feature an incounter between Phoenix and Iron-Man, at the time a resident of the later universe. The encounter leaves both of them confused. Phoenix intends to inform Wolverine, Cyclops, Storm and Cannonball about it but decides to wait till after they manage to avoid the attack by Operation Zero Tolerance. An attack which results in the capture of all five of them. On the other hand Iron-Man intends to urgently contact "Reed Richards. Mr. Fantastic of the Fantastic Four". The Project places this appearance of Iron-Man between IM2 8 and IM2 9.

For the Project's resident calendar writers I suppose this issue is something of a gift, allowing them to place many other issues in relation to it.

And X-Men #66 even offers timing of the issue placing the capture of the five X-Men at "approximately Seven P.M Eastern Standard Time". The Daily Bugle issue of that day had a front page story about a battle between the Thunderbolts and Nate Grey offering another clue on its placement.

Good idea pointing the issue as a marking spot, Jeph. Has the issue helped you in your own chronology of the X-Titles?

			*	*	*

1602 and its insignificant status for calendarists
Posted by Dimadick on August 17, 2003 at 07:24:52:

On a comment by Kevin for calendarists' seeming lack of interest for Neil Gaiman's series. If Gaiman's interview in Wizard #143 is accurate then it is no wonder.

According to the writer the series is set in the Marvel Universe in the year 1602. Even if Paul placed Fantastic Four #1 in the year 1961, this series would feature events that precede it by 359 years. It seems to be way beyond the scope of Paul's calendar. But not beyond the scope of the Project as it will feature ancestors of modern characters.

Among the few that the writer named in that interview are:

1)Sir Nicholas Fury, head of the intelligence service of Queen Elizabeth I of England (lived 1533-1603, reigned 1558-1603). As a note modern historians have theorized that at the time that position was held by Sir Francis Bacon(1561-1626), the son of Sir Nicholas Bacon(1510-1579). At least in his novel "New Atlantis" -1610 he describes a secret society and names various kind of operatives and their assignments.:
a)"Merchants of Light".
b)"Depredators".
c)"Mystery Men".
d)"Pioneers" or "Miners".
e)"Compilers".
f)"Dowry-Men" or "Benefactors".
g)"Lamps".
h)"Actioneers" or "Inoculators".
i)"Observers"
j)and finaly "Interpreters of Nature".

2)Dr. Stephen Strange, physician of Queen Elizabeth and secretly a mysticist. His role is reminiscent of that of Dr. John Dee(1527-1608), a favorite of Elizabeth and perhaps the best known mysticist of his time.

3)Matthew Murdock, blind Irish street singer and mercenary agent for Sir Nicholas.

4)Peter Parker, young assistant to Sir Nicholas.

5)Otto Von Doom the Handsome, adventurer and manipulator.

Sounds like enough connections to the Modern Marvel Universe to be considered for inclusion without necessary needing a crossover with modern day characters. Doesn't it?

			*	*	*

Re: 1602 and its insignificant status for calendarists
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 17, 2003 at 09:13:45:
In Reply to: 1602 and its insignificant status for calendarists
posted by Dimadick on August 17, 2003 at 07:24:52:

IMHO, this sounds like the most contrived piece of fiction ever.  They really expect us to believe that ancestors of modern-day MU characters, with the same names, no less, were interacting in Elizabethan England.  I can suspend disbelief on a number of things, but this is too much.

This would have more credibility if it were non-canon -- putting Marvel characters into an Elizabethan setting for the sake of interesting storytelling.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: 1602 and its insignificant status for calendarists
Posted by Dimadick on August 17, 2003 at 10:12:10:
In Reply to: Re: 1602 and its insignificant status for calendarists
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 17, 2003 at 09:13:45:

To be honest I usualy enjoy stories that explore the past and origins of modern characters and their family historie. But those stories tend to stretch their credibility when every single ancestor and their behavior has to match those of their descedants. It is as if the time periods they experienced with their many differences and developments in between had to do little with their shaping. 

And judging from Gaiman's interview those characters are little more than previous incarnations of their descedants. According to it: "1602 is genuinely set in the Marvel Universe, except that for reasons that are not immediately apparent, the Marvel Universe that we know is trying to come into existence 500 years early".

He even mentions two teams of characters the Witch Breed (reportedly ancestors of the original five X-Men Angel, Beast, Cyclops, Iceman and Marvel Girl) and the Four Travelers  with their ship the Fantastic (apparently ancestors of the Fantastic Four). And I thought mutants were supposed to be rare in the Marvel Universe before the 20th century.

Unfortunately though the level of quality or creativity present in a story are not the grounds of inclusion or exlusion from continiuty. Or else I suspect that many stories would be thrown out. Including the Crossing, the Onslaught crossover and most of the Clone Saga. They certainly have met with wide disaprooval on both grounds and they are still considered canon despite it. Oh well,not every idea is a winner.

			*	*	*

Re: 1602 and its insignificant status for calendarists
Posted by Don Campbell on August 17, 2003 at 11:27:35:
In Reply to: Re: 1602 and its insignificant status for calendarists
posted by Dimadick on August 17, 2003 at 10:12:10:

Okay, I may be totally wrong about this but it was my understanding that the whole MARVEL 1602 mini-series, while NOT an Elseworlds-type story, was also not going to be the REAL past of the Marvel Universe.  Instead, it was going to be like the story in UNCANNY X-MEN #190-191 when Kulan Gath used a spell to turn all of New York City and its inhabitants what they would have been like in his native Hyborian Age.  I seem to remember some mention about how the heroes were going to have to recover a mysterious power object in order to get everything "back to normal."

As I said, I may be wrong about this - but I don't think so.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: 1602 and its insignificant status for calendarists
Posted by Jim on August 17, 2003 at 14:18:53:
In Reply to: Re: 1602 and its insignificant status for calendarists
posted by Don Campbell on August 17, 2003 at 11:27:35:

> > > IMHO, this sounds like the most contrived piece of fiction ever.  They really expect us to believe that ancestors of modern-day MU characters, with the same names, no less, were interacting in Elizabethan England.  I can suspend disbelief on a number of things, but this is too much.

I think that the negativity toward this series is a little premature.  It may turn out that these are not physical ancestors at all.  

The way I had it in my mind was that there was some sort of mysticality behind the whole thing.  I agree, if it does turn out to be a whole ancestor thing then that does stretch credibility a bit too far and does sort of cheapen the current characters.  But maybe, the current characters are archetypes that have always had the potential to exist, and actually tried to some 400 years ago.  Perhaps certain elements of reality are "set" and just wait for the right time, as it were, to exist.

Let's wait and see, cause its a pretty interesting and well-written story so far.

Jim

			*	*	*

Re: 1602 and its insignificant status for calendarists
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 17, 2003 at 17:03:01:
In Reply to: Re: 1602 and its insignificant status for calendarists
posted by Jim on August 17, 2003 at 14:18:53:

> maybe, the current characters are archetypes that have always had the potential to exist, and actually tried to some 400 years ago.  Perhaps certain elements of reality are "set" and just wait for the right time, as it were, to exist.

Fabian Nicieza used similar reasoning behind his introduction of the ancient Guardians of the Galaxy in THUNDERBOLTS, but it seemed a bit contrived to me.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: 1602 and its insignificant status for calendarists
Posted by Dan Spears on August 18, 2003 at 02:31:27:
In Reply to: Re: 1602 and its insignificant status for calendarists
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 17, 2003 at 17:03:01:

I agree with Jim wholeheartedly on this.  Everyone seems to be jumping to a LOT of negative conclusions about this series with no reason whatsoever.  Neil Gaiman has demonstrated that he is an EXCELLENT writer many times over in the past, people (much better than your average Marvel writer, IMHO), so let's at least give him the benefit of a doubt that he's definitely earned.

Dan

			*	*	*

Solomon Kane might have fit in with this, but..........
Posted by John McDonagh on August 17, 2003 at 20:43:02:
In Reply to: 1602 and its insignificant status for calendarists
posted by Dimadick on August 17, 2003 at 07:24:52:

Solomon Kane might have fit in with this idea, as his adventures took place in roughly Elizabethan times. Too bad they lost the rights to him.

(Then again, maybe 1602 might be a little late for Solomon Kane.)

Oh, as for 1602 antecedents for modern characters......well, there are plenty of characters in Guardians of the Galaxy (set in the 30th century) who model themselves after 20th century characters. So, I guess 1602 is this in reverse. 

Also, in the reverse direction, at least one Hyborian Era characters has a Bronze Age imposter who modeled himself after him; the case of Seth and Set. Conan faced a character called the Man of Iron who was sort of a Hyborian Era forerunner of Iron Man, and Conan the Savage#3 stated that Conan would meet a Hyborian Era version of the Black Panther. 

			*	*	*

Re: Solomon Kane might have fit in with this, but..........
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 17, 2003 at 22:16:40:
In Reply to: Solomon Kane might have fit in with this, but..........
posted by John McDonagh on August 17, 2003 at 20:43:02:

>> Oh, as for 1602 antecedents for modern characters......well, there are plenty of characters in Guardians of the Galaxy (set in the 30th century) who model themselves after 20th century characters. So, I guess 1602 is this in reverse. 

You said it yourself, in the 30th century some people consciously model themselves after 20th-century antecedents (who, by the way, did not share their names or bloodlines or personal attributes such as blindness).  Our current characters did NOT consciously model their lives after same-named ancestors from 1602.  Unless this is intentionally non-canon or some kind of a time-travel/dimension warping saga, the coincidences are just too much to believe.

--Paul

			*	*	*

If only September 11 attacks had not happened..................
Posted by John McDonagh on August 18, 2003 at 14:25:40:
In Reply to: Re: Solomon Kane might have fit in with this, but..........
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 17, 2003 at 22:16:40:

Gaiman says he decided to do an Elizabethan Era project because of the September 11 incidents causing him to feel less than enthusiastic about a modern era project. 

			*	*	*

Re: Solomon Kane might have fit in with this, but..........
Posted by Dimadick on August 18, 2003 at 03:56:58:
In Reply to: Solomon Kane might have fit in with this, but..........
posted by John McDonagh on August 17, 2003 at 20:43:02:

> Solomon Kane might have fit in with this idea, as his adventures took place in roughly Elizabethan times. Too bad they lost the rights to him.

> (Then again, maybe 1602 might be a little late for Solomon Kane.)

Not excactly. The following chronology of Solomon Kane places his life between 1549 and 1610. His last known adventure at least was placed in 1610, since now excact date of death was given.

But there is a problem with the stories:
1) "The Moon of Skulls".
2)"The Hills of the Dead".
3)"Hawk of Basti".
4)"The Return of Sir Richard Grenville".(poem), 
5)"Wings in the Night."
6)"The Footfalls Within"
7)"the Children of Asshur."

They are all placed in Africa and point to an extended stay in than continent. This particular chronology believes he wandered Africa between 1592 and 1605.

See:http://www.pjfarmer.com/woldnewton/Solomon.htm

			*	*	*

1602: "Just the fact's Maam"
Posted by Kevin  on August 18, 2003 at 17:13:36:
In Reply to: 1602 and its insignificant status for calendarists
posted by Dimadick on August 17, 2003 at 07:24:52:

Here's the "facts" about the series, (and you can read more at this link:  http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=2406)  That link goes to a press conference held by Gaiman and Marvel executives.

This is NOT ancestors of current Marvel characters that we're seeing.  It's THE Marvel characters, but for some reason, they have no memory of being in the 20th century, (or something like that).  

It's best stated by the writer Gaiman, who says, "1602 is an 8-issue mini, set in a Marvel Universe in which, for reasons which will take a while to uncover, the whole Marvel Universe is starting to occur 500 years early."

Add onto that the following comments from Gaiman: "So, '1602!' Although it will look at first glance kind of like an Elseworlds or a 'What if' or one of those things, it actually isn't. It's set 400 years ago in the Marvel Universe, but in a version of the Marvel Universe in which the mighty world of Marvel has started coming into existence 400 years early, for reasons that will become apparent as the series progresses. We are dealing with analogues of characters that we know and love. We're in a world in which Sir Nicholas Fury is the head of Queen Elizabeth's intelligence organization. In which Dr. Steven Strange is her court physician and court magician. In which young people with remarkable powers known as the Witch Breed are being persecuted by the inquisition. Most have fled to England where they have taken sanctuary with Karloff Javier, an exiled Spaniard with some remarkable mental powers." 

So as to wether this is 'canon' or not, well Gaiman says the following, "I will just say that if you try and read this as an Elseworlds story it's not really a narrative strategy that will get you very far. If you read it much more as a puzzle and as an adventure, things will start to become apparent as the story goes on. How the world got this way, whether we can get it back and what it means." 

My position is: Wait and see.  Though he says it is indeed 'canon', (which I take to mean it has relevance to today's Marvel superheroes) we should just wait to see where he's going with all this.  I get the feeling someone's gotten ahold of a Cosmic Cube again and altered history..., (that's just a wild guess, I don't know for sure...).

			*	*	*

SERVITOR...SHADES...SHADOWCAT
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 17, 2003 at 09:55:51:

new entries marked **

SERVITOR
**T 242
**T 243
**T 244
**T 245
T 438

SHADES
**LCHFH 1
LCHFH 14-FB
LCHFH 14

SHADOWCAT/KATHERINE "KITTY" PRYDE
UX 194
**UX 195
SWII 1

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering!

#111

			*	*	*

Captain America 333 & 334
Posted by David Hall on August 17, 2003 at 15:21:59:

I have been reviewing Freedom force chronology.  While Mystique and Destiny are in CA 334, They do NOT appear in CA 333, but they are listed in the MCP for that issue.  They are probably around the Washington DC area somewhere, but since they are not even mentioned I see no reason to give them even a BTS appearance in CA 333.

Dave

			*	*	*

MCP 82-87 Freedom Force
Posted by David Hall on August 17, 2003 at 17:58:06:

In Pyro, Blob, and Avalanches Chronology the Freedom Force/Firestar story (MCP 82-87) is listed out of place.  It is listed After the Iraqi storyline in NM @7/2, UX @15/2 and XF@6/2.  It should be listed BEFORE this storyline, as in the Iraqi storyline Pyro and the Blob are captured by the Iraqis and do not appear again until X-Force 5 & 6, where they are no longer members of Freedom Force. (The Iraqi storyline is their last app. With Freedom Force)

Blob:
NM 89
H2 369-FB
H2 369
NM@ 7/2
UX@ 15/2
XF@ 6/2
M/CP 82/2
M/CP 84/2
M/CP 85/2
M/CP 86/2
XFOR 5

Should be changed to:
NM 89
H2 369-FB
H2 369
*M/CP 82/2
*M/CP 84/2
*M/CP 85/2
*M/CP 86/2
NM@ 7/2
UX@ 15/2
XF@ 6/2
XFOR 5

Avalanche: 
UX 255
XMF 2
A 312
PUN2 29
H2 369-FB
NM@ 7/2
UX@ 15/2
XF@ 6/2
M/CP 82/2
M/CP 83/2
M/CP 84/2
M/CP 86/2
XF 108

Should be changed to:
UX 255
XMF 2
A 312
PUN2 29
H2 369-FB
*M/CP 82/2
*M/CP 83/2
*M/CP 84/2
*M/CP 86/2
NM@ 7/2
UX@ 15/2
XF@ 6/2
XF 108

Pyro:
NM 89
H2 369-FB
H2 369
NM@ 7/2
UX@ 15/2
XF@ 6/2
M/CP 84/4
M/CP 85/2
M/CP 86/2
XFOR 6

Should be changed to:
NM 89
H2 369-FB
H2 369
*M/CP 84/4
*M/CP 85/2
*M/CP 86/2
NM@ 7/2
UX@ 15/2
XF@ 6/2
XFOR 6

Dave

			*	*	*

Re: MCP 82-87 Freedom Force
Posted by Andy Holcombe on September 21, 2003 at 22:41:00:
In Reply to: MCP 82-87 Freedom Force
posted by David Hall on August 17, 2003 at 17:58:06:

> In Pyro, Blob, and Avalanches Chronology the Freedom Force/Firestar story (MCP 82-87) is listed out of place.

Here's some of my prior remarks on the chronologies of the various Freedom Force members.

Freedom Force

Posted by Andy Holcombe on September 30, 2001 at 19:42:31:

In your Crimson Commando chronology, you have Incredible Hulk #369 taking place after "The Killing Stroke" storyline (New Mutants Annual #7, Uncanny X-Men Annual #15, and X-Factor Annual #6).  Due to the injuries sustained in this storyline, Crimson Commando comes back as more machine than man in later issues of X-Factor (around 102).  In the other Freedom Force chronologies (Blob, Pyro, Super Sabre, Avalanche), this order is reversed.  Also, you have Hulk #369 taking place after New Mutants #89.  The dialogue in the flashback seems to me that it takes place shortly after Avengers #312/Punisher #29 and the mission in Hulk #369 is their first offical mission since Destiny and Stonewall's deaths in Uncanny X-Men #255.  The capture of Rusty Collins in New Mutants #86 would have been after Mystique's pep talk in the Hulk #369 flashback.  Plus Pyro's wearing a different costume in New Mutants #88, 89, and in the Killing Stroke as compared to previous appearances including Hulk #369.  

Therefore, I believe that the chronology needs to be

Avengers #312
Punisher #29
Hulk #369-FB
Hulk #369
New Mutants #86, 87-BTS, 88, 89
New Mutants Annual #7
Uncanny X-Men Annual #15
X-Factor Annual #6

Also, I don't have all of the issues handy, but I believe that the Firestar arc in Marvel Comics Presents #82-87 takes place before New Mutants #86 based on Pyro's costume.  Also, due to the presence of Spiral, this story may be earlier

All Freedeom Force appearances should be before New Mutants Annual #7, as presented in for Super Sabre because the events in that story effectively eliminate Freedom Force as a coehisive unit and leads to Blob and Pyro returning to Toad's Brotherhood of Evil Mutants in X-Force and Avalanche and Crimson Commando's return in X-Factor.

			*	*	*

Freedom Force Vs. Atlantis Attacks
Posted by David Hall on August 17, 2003 at 18:53:58:

The listing for Mystique, and other Freedom Force members, indicate that UX 254 and 255 occur between NM 82 and 87.

This contradicts Atlantis Attacks entries for many characters.  New Mutants @ 5 must occur between pages of NM 87. 

NM@5 must be before XF@4, AWC@ 4, T@ 14, FF@ 22 in order to stay consistent with the Atlantis Attacks storyline.

However Storm, for example, appears in AWC@ 4, T@ 14, FF@ 22 between UX 245 and 246 as listed:
UX 245
UX@ 13
AWC@ 4
T@ 14
FF@ 22
M/SH3 6
M/SH3 7
M/SH3 8
M/CP 48/4
W2 17
UX 246

(Which is way before UX 254 and 255)

So what Im getting at is that UX 254 and 255 have to happen latter on in Freedom Force chronology, sometime after NM 87-89.

Dave

			*	*	*

Marvel New Universe D.P.7 "Scorcher"
Posted by CLH on August 17, 2003 at 21:56:08:

I can't find anything on this comic book from 1987.  Does anyone know anything?  I have it in a collection given to me.  D.P. stands for displayed paranormals...  Looks like an X-Men type of storyline.

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel New Universe D.P.7 "Scorcher"
Posted by Gary M. Miller on August 17, 2003 at 22:16:54:
In Reply to: Marvel New Universe D.P.7 "Scorcher"
posted by CLH on August 17, 2003 at 21:56:08:

The book you have there is one of a new line of Marvel comics that came out around 1986 called the New Universe.  It had nothing to do with traditional Marvel, being instead "the world outside your window" interspersed with a global stellar event that made 1 out of every million or so beings paranormals--mutants by any other name, but far less powerful.

You can find out more about the different New Universe series at my site, linked below (follow the links to "New Universe" stuff throughout).

-Gary

http://www.geocities.com/tensen2099

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel New Universe D.P.7 "Scorcher"
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 18, 2003 at 20:35:04:
In Reply to: Re: Marvel New Universe D.P.7 "Scorcher"
posted by Gary M. Miller on August 17, 2003 at 22:16:54:

> New Universe [...] nothing to do with traditional Marvel

Originally, yes.  However, the NU & the MU eventually crossed paths, as evidenced by, for example, an entry for Captain Manhattan in the Project.

- SK

			*	*	*

All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
Posted by Dan Spears on August 18, 2003 at 02:46:58:

In an interview with Joe Quesada which can be found at http://www.advancediron.com/main.html , I found this line:

Asked if he felt the different continuities of the regular Marvel Universe and MAX were a detriment to fans reading and enjoying the titles, and if the titles should have a notice on the cover, Quesada said that he felt a notice would only further complicate things. In the EICs view, fans who care about it already know, and more casual readers dont care as long as its a good story.

This sure sounds to me like EVERY MAX title is out of regular Marvel continuity, even Alias.  This WOULD explain a lot of things in the Alias books' "flashbacks".  I know that the same character is being used in Daredevil, but we could assume that the Daredevil version is the Marvel Universe version, and the MAX version is another version.

Dan

			*	*	*

Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on August 18, 2003 at 04:26:13:
In Reply to: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
posted by Dan Spears on August 18, 2003 at 02:46:58:

> This sure sounds to me like EVERY MAX title is out of regular Marvel continuity, even Alias.  This WOULD explain a lot of things in the Alias books' "flashbacks".  I know that the same character is being used in Daredevil, but we could assume that the Daredevil version is the Marvel Universe version, and the MAX version is another version.

Sounds more like a casual reply to an uninformed question to me.

It's well-established by now that there is no "Max Universe" -- some Max titles have their own continuity, while others, such as ALIAS are set in the Marvel Universe.

Hell, the book will be CONTINUED as a non-Max Marvel Universe book in a few months.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch 

			*	*	*

Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
Posted by Dan Spears on August 19, 2003 at 01:04:32:
In Reply to: Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on August 18, 2003 at 04:26:13:

I'm not SAYING that there's a MAX Universe; I'm saying that according to this statement, it's strongly implied, if not said outright, that the people involved in producing a MAX title aren't obliged to adhere to regular Marvel Universe continuity - thus making MAX titles non cannon.  Not only would that explain how Jessica Jones was an Avenger for an extended period of time, which is problematic at best, but it would also explain the flat-out IMPOSSIBILITY of Peter Parker and Flash Thompson being high schoolers AFTER the Galactus Trilogy (if you don't believe me, just follow along with the timeline of the original Marvel Indexes of the Fantastic Four and Amazing Spider-Man - Johnny Storm and Peter Parker both start college soon after the Galactus incident).  The new Alias spin-off series that is coming up could just be considered to deal with the Jessica Jones who is appearing in Daredevil right now, without the flashback baggage that the MAX Jessica Jones is being saddled with. 

  Now, personnally, I think Alias is cannon in the present-day Marvel Universe, but I don't think that the present day Marvel Universe is the same one portrayed in the 60's, 70's, and maybe even the 80's.  The same way that the 60's and 70's Marvel Universe was different from the one portrayed in the Timely comics (as stated by Roy Thomas in the Invaders letters columns).  This would explain the inconsistencies that are being portrayed in retro stories being published in the present day.  An easy way to explain this is just to say that after one of the many times that the Marvel Universe (or it's timeline) was destroyed and then brought back to life it changed certain events of the past, which are being told in the retro series of the present day (Marvel: the Lost Generation, Namor, the Truth, the new Kingpin series, etc, etc...).  I brought up this theory before, but no one seemed to like it; that's fine.  Now, this line from the interview seems to give us an easy way out from some outright impossible flashbacks that are being told in the current Alias series (as well as elsewhere), as regards well documented Marvel Universe history.  Before we start creating a calendar of the Silver and Bronze Age Marvel Universe, I think we need to make some decisions on how to decide what's cannon; at least if we choose the New Universe History theory (or whatever), we don't need to keep throwing out new stories that take place in the past just because they refute something that has taken place in a Silver or Bronze age book (which is going to happen more and more often as new writers join the Marvel staff who don't care enough about older Marvel stories to keep their new history consistent with established Marvel history).  I'd like to hear some thoughts on this, especially from the official Calendar-Man, Paul :)!

  Just trying to keep things lively,
  Dan

			*	*	*

Sigh.
Posted by Jeph! on August 19, 2003 at 02:08:30:
In Reply to: Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
posted by Dan Spears on August 19, 2003 at 01:04:32:

> > > "Asked if he felt the different continuities of the regular Marvel Universe and MAX were a detriment to fans reading and enjoying the titles, and if the titles should have a notice on the cover, Quesada said that he felt a notice would only further complicate things. In the EICs view, fans who care about it already know, and more casual readers dont care as long as its a good story."

> according to this statement, it's strongly implied, if not said outright, that the people involved in producing a MAX title aren't obliged to adhere to regular Marvel Universe continuity - thus making MAX titles non cannon.

Where on earth does this statement even BEGIN to imply that?  I've re-copied it above ... the initial premise of the question ASSUMES that Marvel and MAX are different continuties, and Quesada doesn't bother to refute it -- that's about as far as it goes.

Besides, "not being obliged to adhere to continuity" doesn't automatically make something non-canon.  In Bendis, case, he may not have been OBLIGED to follow MU continuity, but he did it anyway.  he made a choice to write a canon MU book.

> Now, personnally, I think Alias is cannon in the present-day Marvel Universe, but I don't think that the present day Marvel Universe is the same one portrayed in the 60's, 70's, and maybe even the 80's ... An easy way to explain this is just to say that after one of the many times that the Marvel Universe (or it's timeline) was destroyed and then brought back to life it changed certain events of the past

Mistakes happen.  They've happened before and they'll happen again.  There's a famous mess-up during "Atlantis Attacks" where Tigra showed up for the crossover at a time where she was supposed to be insane and one inch tall.  John Byrne actually apologized for it on-panel in a back-up feature.

Why bother to create a branch universe to explain goofy mistakes?  So Peter was a high-school student at a time he shouldn't have been -- just pretend he was at the school that day visiting a professor or taking a summer course or something.  Or shrug your shoulders and read on.

You're making it a lot more difficult than it needs to be.

And yes -- "Alias" takes place in the Marvel Universe, as do a few other MAX-labelled books.  Can we finally all shelve this topic?

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Sigh.
Posted by Dan Spears on August 19, 2003 at 03:05:08:
In Reply to: Sigh. 
posted by Jeph! on August 19, 2003 at 02:08:30:

Whatever.
Dan

			*	*	*

Some Comments
Posted by Dan Spears on August 19, 2003 at 23:25:48:
In Reply to: Re: Sigh.
posted by Dan Spears on August 19, 2003 at 03:05:08:

> > > > > "Asked if he felt the different continuities of the regular Marvel Universe and MAX were a detriment to fans reading and enjoying the titles, and if the titles should have a notice on the cover, Quesada said that he felt a notice would only further complicate things. In the EICs view, fans who care about it already know, and more casual readers dont care as long as its a good story."

> > > according to this statement, it's strongly implied, if not said outright, that the people involved in producing a MAX title aren't obliged to adhere to regular Marvel Universe continuity - thus making MAX titles non cannon.

> > Where on earth does this statement even BEGIN to imply that?  I've re-copied it above ... the initial premise of the question ASSUMES that Marvel and MAX are different continuties, and Quesada doesn't bother to refute it -- that's about as far as it goes.

Jeph, I only assumed that the people here would be interested in Quesada's comment because I've observed in the past that some cannonicity decisions have been made based on an editor's comments, as opposed to original intent (Spider-Man Chapter One, for instance).

> > Besides, "not being obliged to adhere to continuity" doesn't automatically make something non-canon.  In Bendis, case, he may not have been OBLIGED to follow MU continuity, but he did it anyway.  he made a choice to write a canon MU book.

Here, Jeph, you're making an assumption that you really don't know to be true or not.

> > > Now, personnally, I think Alias is cannon in the present-day Marvel Universe, but I don't think that the present day Marvel Universe is the same one portrayed in the 60's, 70's, and maybe even the 80's ... An easy way to explain this is just to say that after one of the many times that the Marvel Universe (or it's timeline) was destroyed and then brought back to life it changed certain events of the past

> > Mistakes happen.  They've happened before and they'll happen again.  There's a famous mess-up during "Atlantis Attacks" where Tigra showed up for the crossover at a time where she was supposed to be insane and one inch tall.  John Byrne actually apologized for it on-panel in a back-up feature.

> > Why bother to create a branch universe to explain goofy mistakes?  So Peter was a high-school student at a time he shouldn't have been -- just pretend he was at the school that day visiting a professor or taking a summer course or something.  Or shrug your shoulders and read on.

> > You're making it a lot more difficult than it needs to be.

Jeph, believe it or not, I actually agree with you on this.  But I don't think that the majority of the people here do, based on some of the decisions they've made on discounting the cannonicity of certain stories (If I recall correctly - and if I don't, PLEASE don't jump all over me - one of the major reasons why The Man Without Fear was decided not to be canon was that Miller named a different college that Matt Murdock went to than the one previously named; heck, I think it's STILL being decided as to whether or not the 9/11 Spider-Man story is canon, based on a large part because of Dr. Doom shedding some tears).  What I was trying to do was simply come up with a way of thinking that would allow us to include ALL stories that contained some "goofy mistakes", instead of writing them off.  I realized from the start, though, that it would be a logistical nightmare to create something like that, and so didn't really expect anyone to go for it.

> > And yes -- "Alias" takes place in the Marvel Universe, as do a few other MAX-labelled books.  Can we finally all shelve this topic?

Jeph, although I'd like to see "Alias" as cannon in the end myself, I think that's something that a lot of people here are taking a "wait and see" attitude about.  And there's nothing wrong with that.  

Also, I don't know about you, but this is a place that I'd like to be able to come to to get away from some of the anger and conflict in my life, not to add to it.  So if you don't mind, PLEASE try not to get so angry and defensive about certain topics if they're raised.  Let's try to keep it fun, OK?

Thanks!
Dan

			*	*	*

Re: Some Comments
Posted by Jeph! on August 20, 2003 at 01:02:09:
In Reply to: Some Comments
posted by Dan Spears on August 19, 2003 at 23:25:48:

> > > > > > "Asked if he felt the different continuities of the regular Marvel Universe and MAX were a detriment to fans reading and enjoying the titles, and if the titles should have a notice on the cover, Quesada said that he felt a notice would only further complicate things. In the EICs view, fans who care about it already know, and more casual readers dont care as long as its a good story."

> > > > according to this statement, it's strongly implied ... that the people involved in producing a MAX title aren't obliged to adhere to regular Marvel Universe continuity

> > > Where on earth does this statement even BEGIN to imply that?

> Jeph, I only assumed that the people here would be interested in Quesada's comment because I've observed in the past that some cannonicity decisions have been made based on an editor's comments

Gotcha.  So, explain it to me then -- where does the above statement even BEGIN to imply what you're taking from it?  It wasn't a rhetorical question and I wasn't mocking your opinion -- I wanted you to go more in-depth, because from where I'm sitting, the above statement -- which in itself is a PARAPHRASE of Quesada's comments, not even a direct quote -- doesn't cover his opinions on MAX canonicity -- just his opinions on labelling out-of-continuity books.  It's the QUESTIONER who appears to make the assumption that MAX books are non-canon.

So, go to town.

> > > Bendis ... made a choice to write a canon MU book.

> Here, Jeph, you're making an assumption that you really don't know to be true or not.

I see where you're coming from, but sheesh -- the same could be said of ANY new book from Marvel these days.  Is "Runaways" or "Namor" occuring in the Marvel Universe?  Can you prove it?

Bendis' writing on Alias and Daredevil clearly IMPLIES Bendis' intent to set "Alias" in the MU -- the main example being the "MGH drug" plotline that crossed over between the two.  In an issue of DD, a drug supplier from the Owl's MGH ring says that he has MGH (mutant growth hormone) from Spider-Man for sale -- in "Alias" we see that the drug actually came from Mattie Franklin, Spider-WOMAN, and again the Owl's drug ring is specifically mentioned.

Can I prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that these two books aren't occuring in mildly parallel universes?  No.  But can I make the assumption that Bendis is writing "Alias" as if it's set in the MU?  Hell yes I can.

Besides which -- "Alias" is soon to come to an end, and be DIRECTLY CONTINUED into "The Pulse" -- a NON-MAX series.  There's another clue to Alias' intended canonicity.

> > > You're making it a lot more difficult than it needs to be.

> I actually agree with you on this.  But I don't think that the majority of the people here do, based on some of the decisions they've made on discounting the cannonicity of certain stories

Well, I can't speak for them, unfortunately -- but you should see the stuff we've KEPT!

As far as I personally go, I don't consider a book non-canon without a HELL of a fight -- I have a stack of X-Men giveaway comics from such places as Pizza Hut and Toys R Us that I consider canon, and I like to think that any and all inter-company crossovers can be canon if the characters are portrayed right -- the mere fact that Spider-Man meets Gen13 is not, to me, enough to discount the book.

> I think it's STILL being decided as to whether or not the 9/11 Spider-Man story is canon, based on a large part because of Dr. Doom shedding some tears).

Not by me it isn't.  Besides, he was sweating -- it's obvious.  ;-)

> What I was trying to do was simply come up with a way of thinking that would allow us to include ALL stories that contained some "goofy mistakes", instead of writing them off.

Well, we have that -- it's called "admitting that a mistake was made and moving on."

The books you're referencing weren't considered non-canon because of ONE goofy mistake -- they were eliminated because of MANY goofy and/or completely irreconcilable mistakes.

I'd like the Rogue v2 series to be canon, for example, but no matter how you look at it JEAN GREY JUST WASN'T ALIVE THEN.  If she was just passing through in one panel we could probably write it off, but a full-on named appearance with powers shown -- sorry.  It was the final nail in the coffin of a book that didn't even portray Rogue's powers correctly.

X-Men: Children of the Atom, too -- good story, good art, but we've already SEEN the X-Men get recruited by Xavier, and it looked nothing like that.

> I'd like to see "Alias" as cannon in the end myself

So do it.

> I think that's something that a lot of people here are taking a "wait and see" attitude about.

I ... haven't seen that.  I've seen people ASK if Alias is canon, and be told "yes", but I haven't seen anyone "waiting and seeing".  Besides, it's been 25 out of 28 issues, with multiple crossover elements in "Daredevil" -- haven't you waited and seen enough?

Speak up if I'm wrong, gentlemen -- is anyone still on the fence with "Alias"?

> this is a place that I'd like to be able to come to to get away from some of the anger and conflict in my life, not to add to it.  So if you don't mind, PLEASE try not to get so angry and defensive about certain topics if they're raised.  Let's try to keep it fun, OK?

Works for me.  One of the things I like about this board is its distinct lack of chatter.  A vast majority of posts are completely or tangentally on-topic, and I don't think I've EVER seen a flame-war here.

I'm sorry if I got under your skin -- it wasn't my intent.  Defensive, sure, but I'm not angry at you.  I just feel like I've seen the "Alias" topic waved around many many times, each time with the same predictable ending.  I'm tired of debating it, personally, and I'm tired of seeing it used incorrectly as an example in arguments.

But, yeah -- keeping the MCP board "fun" is good policy indeed.  This place is my sanctuary too.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Some Comments
Posted by Dan Spears on August 20, 2003 at 01:29:45:
In Reply to: Re: Some Comments
posted by Jeph! on August 20, 2003 at 01:02:09:

Jeph, like I said before, I think we actually AGREE on most, if not all, points mentioned here.  As to what was or wasn't implied in the Quesada interview, if I misinterpreted it, I'm sorry.  Let's work on trying to keep anything canon that's even REMOTELY possible, and keeping things fun and friendly at the same time!

Later,
Dan

PS - Now, if anyone can help me out on that Dracula question that I posted... :)!

			*	*	*

Re: Some Comments
Posted by Jeph! on August 20, 2003 at 01:42:33:
In Reply to: Re: Some Comments
posted by Dan Spears on August 20, 2003 at 01:29:45:

> Let's work on trying to keep anything canon that's even REMOTELY possible, and keeping things fun and friendly at the same time!

Done and done.  :-)

> PS - Now, if anyone can help me out on that Dracula question that I posted... :)!

Sorry, no luck on this end -- but good eye, for even catching it in the first place.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mesa confused.
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2003 at 22:12:36:
In Reply to: Re: Some Comments
posted by Dan Spears on August 20, 2003 at 01:29:45:

> Jeph, like I said before, I think we actually AGREE on most, if not all, points mentioned here.  As to what was or wasn't implied in the Quesada interview, if I misinterpreted it, I'm sorry.  Let's work on trying to keep anything canon that's even REMOTELY possible, and keeping things fun and friendly at the same time!

Dan, I've been following this thread and I am compelled to say that I have *no* *idea* *where* you are coming from.

Personally, the whole reason for visiting *any* discussion board (or having many f2f conversations) is the *potential* for a heated debate.

I'm not looking for any flamewars; I'm looking for someone else who believes as passionately about something as I do, whether we agree or not.  If we don't agree, it is an *immensely* gratifying experience to reason back and forth until whoever's flawed reasoning is exposed.  If I am wrong about something, I'd far rather be humbled and corrected than continue thinking the wrong way.

It's not about winning an argument at all, but *helping* someone to clear things up.  Exposing the facts is the whole point; if there is nothing to establish, what is there to discuss?

I'm deeply sorry you see such discussion as something negative, but there are many flavors of postings here for everyone's tastes.

- SK, enjoying the heated discussion about heated discussions.  Reminds me of the great Gambit cybercomic talks.

			*	*	*

Re: Mesa confused.
Posted by Dan Spears on August 21, 2003 at 02:54:30:
In Reply to: Mesa confused.
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2003 at 22:12:36:

SK,

You're probably correct, maybe it's just me.  I'm currently going through the beginnings of a divorce, and find that I just want AS LITTLE CONFLICT AS POSSIBLE in my life right now, especially in areas of my life which have nothing to do with my wife.  Maybe that makes this the wrong time for me to post anything here which could be seen as confrontational, I don't know.  I'll try to keep all of this in mind in the future.

Peace,
Dan

			*	*	*

Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on August 19, 2003 at 10:52:20:
In Reply to: Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
posted by Dan Spears on August 19, 2003 at 01:04:32:

>   I'm not SAYING that there's a MAX Universe; I'm saying that according to this statement, it's strongly implied, if not said outright, that the people involved in producing a MAX title aren't obliged to adhere to regular Marvel Universe continuity - thus making MAX titles non cannon.

As I understand current Marvel policy, creators in general are not obliged to strictly adhere to continuity, should it stand in the way of what they want to do.  But what that gets you, generally, are simply little continuity gaffes, the sort of which have been around since Stan and Jack were at the helm.

Exceptions are series like FURY or MORLOCKS, whose set-up puts them outside of continuity by default.  That's clearly not the case with ALIAS, though.

> Not only would that explain how Jessica Jones was an Avenger for an extended period of time, which is problematic at best,

I'm only up to #24 currently, but so far, I think the notion that Jessica Jones was said to have been an Avenger in ALIAS is a myth and a rumor -- I don't remember any such instance, at any rate.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, though, or if #25 says anything different.

> but it would also explain the flat-out IMPOSSIBILITY of Peter Parker and Flash Thompson being high schoolers AFTER the Galactus Trilogy (if you don't believe me, just follow along with the timeline of the original Marvel Indexes of the Fantastic Four and Amazing Spider-Man - Johnny Storm and Peter Parker both start college soon after the Galactus incident).

Fine.  It's an error, then, if you're correct.  They happen.  It's a relatively small one, though, and not one of the sort which put a series out of continuity, or requires long-winded rules to explain away.

> An easy way to explain this is just to say that after one of the many times that the Marvel Universe (or it's timeline) was destroyed and then brought back to life it changed certain events of the past, which are being told in the retro series of the present day (Marvel: the Lost Generation, Namor, the Truth, the new Kingpin series, etc, etc...).  I brought up this theory before, but no one seemed to like it; that's fine.

Presumably because it is unnecessary, and just complicates matters.  We know that Marvel Time moves much slower than "real time," if at all, and we know that the Marvel Universe is inherently a contradictory, imperfect and flawed construct.

It would be nonsense to try and come up with rules that would explain every little inconsistency, not least because it would also be an impossible task.

> Now, this line from the interview seems to give us an easy way out from some outright impossible flashbacks that are being told in the current Alias series (as well as elsewhere), as regards well documented Marvel Universe history.

I disagree.  As stated earlier, I think it's a casual reply to a question which has nothing to do with this particular topic.

Trying to make anything more of it would only overly complicate things.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch

			*	*	*

Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
Posted by David Smith on August 19, 2003 at 11:17:21:
In Reply to: Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on August 19, 2003 at 10:52:20:

> > Not only would that explain how Jessica Jones was an Avenger for an extended period of time, which is problematic at best,

> I'm only up to #24 currently, but so far, I think the notion that Jessica Jones was said to have been an Avenger in ALIAS is a myth and a rumor -- I don't remember any such instance, at any rate.

> Please correct me if I'm wrong, though, or if #25 says anything different.

Actually, the whole "Jessica was an Avenger" thing is one of the biggest pet peeves I have about the series that has kept me in the Alias is not canon camp. However, the most recent issue
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

Has he meeting the Avengers for the first time (while under the influence of the Purple Man) by attacking them.

Now if this storyline results in showing us that Jessica was never an Avenger though she did become friends with them as a result of the Purple Man story, Then I for one would be willing to switch camps.

However, as long as the "offical" story is that she was an avenger for any length of time, then sorry but that's a canon buster for me.

			*	*	*

Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on August 19, 2003 at 15:50:23:
In Reply to: Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
posted by David Smith on August 19, 2003 at 11:17:21:

> However, as long as the "offical" story is that she was an avenger for any length of time, then sorry but that's a canon buster for me.

As I said, I have read the entire series, and I don't remember any scene which remotedly suggested that Jessica Jones was ever a member of the Avengers.  Could be that my memory is faulty, but I doubt it, since I generally have a good eye for continuity contradictions or retcons.

At any rate, I wouldn't let such rumors, spread by people who apparently like to jump to conclusions, stand in the way of my enjoyment of one of the best series around.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch  

			*	*	*

Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
Posted by garbonzo on August 19, 2003 at 19:11:13:
In Reply to: Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on August 19, 2003 at 15:50:23:

> > However, as long as the "offical" story is that she was an avenger for any length of time, then sorry but that's a canon buster for me.

> As I said, I have read the entire series, and I don't remember any scene which remotedly suggested that Jessica Jones was ever a member of the Avengers.  Could be that my memory is faulty, but I doubt it, since I generally have a good eye for continuity contradictions or retcons.

I think that the general consensus that Jessica was a member of the Avengers comes from A) the picture of her standing in, in costume, with the avengers, and B) her relationship with Carol Danvers.  As to her length of time with the group, it has never been established how long she was with them.

garbonzo

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Re: Alias' canonicity
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 19, 2003 at 20:55:17:
In Reply to: Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
posted by garbonzo on August 19, 2003 at 19:11:13:

I'm in the camp that says Alias is canon unless proven otherwise, and from what I know so far, that proof hasn't been offered.

Since I wasn't exactly overwhelmed with responses to this post earlier, now's a good time to bring it back up...

I have some observations Id like to share about the chronological placement of the second flashback in ALIAS #25 to see if folks agree...

Here are the placement clues I noticed:

1) It is eight months after the first flashback in this issue, and both flashbacks occur a few years (interpreted liberally) before ALIAS 25. 

2) The newspaper reads Daredevil Saves City. This may be a reference to an unpublished story, but it would be better to link it to one that has seen print.

3) Two quinjets are returning to Avengers Mansion from a mission; one carries the Avengers and one the Defenders. This particular team-up story has never seen print.

4) The Avengers include Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Scarlet Witch, Vision (noted as Wandas husband), and Ms. Marvel. The appearance of Ms. Marvel is the most helpful for placement. Her association with the Avengers and her black and yellow costume place this flashback somewhere between A@ 8 (her first Avengers appearance with the new costume) and A 194 (the start of the Marcus storyline that leads to her departure from the team).

5) The Defenders consist of Dr. Strange, Namor, Hulk, Silver Surfer, and Valkyrie. The Surfers active involvement with the Defenders was limited to certain periods, but he simply may have been called in to deal with whatever mission is referenced here. Valkyrie presents a problem, though. She appears in her original Wagneresque costume, BUT for the entire time Ms. Marvel was an Avenger, Valkyrie was wearing her white and gold costume. Argh. Maybe now is the time to break out that old excuse, the regular costume was in the wash. We do know that Val had ready access to the old costume, since later, in DEF 189, Patsy asks Val to wear it to her mothers funeral.

IF we accept that Val switched back to her old costume temporarily for this mission, that the Surfer was called in from inactive status in the Defenders, and that Carol Danvers is either an official or not-yet-official Avenger, then wed need to look for a Daredevil story from this time period that would fit the newspaper headline. The only DD story that might end with DD saving the city at this time is DD 158. I dont have that issue, but can someone tell me if DD does save New York in that issue?

Of course, I could wait for more clues in the next issue of Alias (such as more characters appearing  maybe Beast, Wonder Man, Nighthawk, or Hellcat), but you know me...

Any thoughts?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Alias' canonicity
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 20, 2003 at 17:32:53:
In Reply to: Re: Alias' canonicity
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 19, 2003 at 20:55:17:

> IF we accept that Val switched back to her old costume temporarily for this mission, that the Surfer was called in from inactive status in the Defenders, and that Carol Danvers is either an official or not-yet-official Avenger, then wed need to look for a Daredevil story from this time period that would fit the newspaper headline. The only DD story that might end with DD saving the city at this time is DD 158. I dont have that issue, but can someone tell me if DD does save New York in that issue?

Nope. Fights and defeats Death-Stalker whose motivation this round was revenge. No endangerment to New York.

			*	*	*

Re: Alias' canonicity
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 20, 2003 at 20:49:44:
In Reply to: Re: Alias' canonicity
posted by Arthur Stein on August 20, 2003 at 17:32:53:

> > IF we accept that Val switched back to her old costume temporarily for this mission, that the Surfer was called in from inactive status in the Defenders, and that Carol Danvers is either an official or not-yet-official Avenger, then wed need to look for a Daredevil story from this time period that would fit the newspaper headline. The only DD story that might end with DD saving the city at this time is DD 158. I dont have that issue, but can someone tell me if DD does save New York in that issue?

> Nope. Fights and defeats Death-Stalker whose motivation this round was revenge. No endangerment to New York.

Drat.  Well, there's always the unpublished DD adventure concept.

I'll wait and see how the flashbacks unfold in future Alias issues.  For now, I'm putting a placeholder during the period somewhere around DD 158 (although not during that issue or the day after).

Thanks for the feedback!

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on August 20, 2003 at 04:50:46:
In Reply to: Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
posted by garbonzo on August 19, 2003 at 19:11:13:

> I think that the general consensus that Jessica was a member of the Avengers comes from A) the picture of her standing in, in costume, with the avengers, and B) her relationship with Carol Danvers.  As to her length of time with the group, it has never been established how long she was with them.

In that case, I would rather refer to it as a "general nonsensus," since it's obviously jumping to conclusions. :)

If every character who posed with the Avengers and knows at least one of them personally would be considered a member, you could add half the Marvel Universe to the roster.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch

			*	*	*

Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
Posted by David Smith on August 20, 2003 at 07:44:54:
In Reply to: Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on August 20, 2003 at 04:50:46:

> > I think that the general consensus that Jessica was a member of the Avengers comes from A) the picture of her standing in, in costume, with the avengers, and B) her relationship with Carol Danvers.  As to her length of time with the group, it has never been established how long she was with them.

> In that case, I would rather refer to it as a "general nonsensus," since it's obviously jumping to conclusions. :)

I don't know that I'd say that. The Whole Jessica was an Avenger thing came about, IIRC, because the pre-series hype from Marvel claimed the Jessica was a former Avenger. The Picture and the friendship with Carol just reinforced that which Marvel's hype machine set in motion.

> If every character who posed with the Avengers and knows at least one of them personally would be considered a member, you could add half the Marvel Universe to the roster.

But how many of those characters were hyped prior to the first issue of thier series as being former Avengers.

As to your comment (I think it was you who said it) about not letting this get in the way of enjoying the series, I've got every issue so far and have enjoyed them greatly, however IF Jessica is supposed to have been an avenger (and so far we only have hype and inferences to that effect), as I said before, that would be a canon buster for me. Doesn't change my enjoyment of the series, just how I view it in relation to marvel canon.

			*	*	*

Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 20, 2003 at 18:38:36:
In Reply to: Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
posted by David Smith on August 20, 2003 at 07:44:54:

>The Whole Jessica was an Avenger thing came about, IIRC, because the pre-series hype from Marvel claimed the Jessica was a former Avenger. 

I don't remember them saying anything of the sort.  Can you point to a source for that?

			*	*	*

Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
Posted by David Smith on August 21, 2003 at 07:33:25:
In Reply to: Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
posted by Paul O'Brien on August 20, 2003 at 18:38:36:

> >The Whole Jessica was an Avenger thing came about, IIRC, because the pre-series hype from Marvel claimed the Jessica was a former Avenger. 

> I don't remember them saying anything of the sort.  Can you point to a source for that?

Unfortuetley just my memory (think I read it in an article in one of the magazines, CSN or wizard or somesuch). But since I've had issues with the "former Avenger" bit with the book since before issue 1 hits the stands, I'm very certain it's not just my memory playing tricks on me. And as I said, the picture and the friendship just added to that pre-launch hype.

			*	*	*

Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
Posted by Administrator on August 19, 2003 at 17:47:51:
In Reply to: Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
posted by Dan Spears on August 19, 2003 at 01:04:32:

>   The same way that the 60's and 70's Marvel Universe was different from the one portrayed in the Timely comics (as stated by Roy Thomas in the Invaders letters columns).  

In which Invaders letter columns did Roy Thomas state this?

> I'd like to hear some thoughts on this, especially from the official Calendar-Man, Paul :)!

You didn't ask, but I'll offer my thoughts on it.

> we don't need to keep throwing out new stories that take place in the past just because they refute something that has taken place in a Silver or Bronze age book

Watch us. If it's a minor inconsistency (read: Peter in college after FF #50) we'll chalk it up to a mistake by Marvel. Big deal. If it tells a story that's patently impossible in the tapestry of the Marvel Universe (read: Jessica Jones accompanies the Fantastic Four on their fateful space mission, followed shortly by a battle with the Skrulls, where Captain America, Captain Marvel, Vision, Thor and Venom were killed before Franklin Richards could save the day) we wouldn't hesitate a moment to throw it out.

> (which is going to happen more and more often as new writers join the Marvel staff who don't care enough about older Marvel stories to keep their new history consistent with established Marvel history).  

Not our problem. That's Marvel's problem.

Let me put it this way. We are not going to throw out Silver Age history, based solely on an inconsistency--no matter how minor, no matter how major--in a current story.

			*	*	*

some answers to the Administrator
Posted by Dan Spears on August 19, 2003 at 23:50:31:
In Reply to: Re: All MAX titles are evidently a different continuity...
posted by Administrator on August 19, 2003 at 17:47:51:

> >   The same way that the 60's and 70's Marvel Universe was different from the one portrayed in the Timely comics (as stated by Roy Thomas in the Invaders letters columns).  

> In which Invaders letter columns did Roy Thomas state this?

Unfortunately, I don't still have my early Invaders comics to look it up, but if someone here DOES have the early issues, it shouldn't be too hard to find.  I remember that his decision was that unless a Timely story was SPECIFICALLY mentioned as happening in the Marvel Universe, it should be discounted.  Understandably, this caused a LOT of controversy in the letters column!

> > we don't need to keep throwing out new stories that take place in the past just because they refute something that has taken place in a Silver or Bronze age book

> Watch us. If it's a minor inconsistency (read: Peter in college after FF #50) we'll chalk it up to a mistake by Marvel. Big deal. If it tells a story that's patently impossible in the tapestry of the Marvel Universe (read: Jessica Jones accompanies the Fantastic Four on their fateful space mission, followed shortly by a battle with the Skrulls, where Captain America, Captain Marvel, Vision, Thor and Venom were killed before Franklin Richards could save the day) we wouldn't hesitate a moment to throw it out.

Please give me a little credit, OK?  I'm talking about things that aren't quite so extreme, but were still thrown out, such as The Adventures of Captain America, Spider-Man Chapter One, and The Man Without Fear.  I'd just like to see a system where they, and many others that were thrown out for the same type of reasons, could somehow be included.  I don't think that ANY of these were "patently impossible in the tapestry of the Marvel Universe", but they were still thrown out.  That said, I don't expect my theory to be used by this site, as it would be a logistical nightmare to implement;  I perfectly understand this.

> > (which is going to happen more and more often as new writers join the Marvel staff who don't care enough about older Marvel stories to keep their new history consistent with established Marvel history).  

> Not our problem. That's Marvel's problem.

Since we're trying to incorporate retro stories into the Marvel Universe timeline when possible, I thought it WAS our problem.

> Let me put it this way. We are not going to throw out Silver Age history, based solely on an inconsistency--no matter how minor, no matter how major--in a current story.

No one said anything about "throwing out" Silver Age history.  Just that a few DETAILS of it may have been supplanted by events that are showing up in current retcon stories.

It was just meant to be something for people to think about, nothing more.  As I said elsewhere, I'm DEFINITELY not interested in arguing about it.  I'd like to keep this a friendly place to come to at the end of the day.

Peace,
Dan

			*	*	*

Re: some answers to the Administrator
Posted by Peter Fabricius on August 20, 2003 at 01:47:16:
In Reply to: some answers to the Administrator
posted by Dan Spears on August 19, 2003 at 23:50:31:

> > >   The same way that the 60's and 70's Marvel Universe was different from the one portrayed in the Timely comics (as stated by Roy Thomas in the Invaders letters columns).  

> > In which Invaders letter columns did Roy Thomas state this?

> Unfortunately, I don't still have my early Invaders comics to look it up, but if someone here DOES have the early issues, it shouldn't be too hard to find.  I remember that his decision was that unless a Timely story was SPECIFICALLY mentioned as happening in the Marvel Universe, it should be discounted.  Understandably, this caused a LOT of controversy in the letters column!

I found three references,

Giant-Size Invaders #1:
'...we're ordinarily not going to consider ourselves bound by anything which occurred in the old Timely mags unless we also verify it in the "Invaders" tales themselves.'

Invaders #32:
'It's our contention, as you know, that most of the stories mentioned in the old Timely Comics did not really happen, and were simply comic-book stories (though sometimes bases roughly on real exploits of Cap, Torch, Namo, and others).'

Invaders #36:
This comes after a long letter by Al Schroeder III, and a response that sys Roy merely did as Stan did when he reintroduced Captain America and ignored several years of published stories. This letter and the response takes up two pages.
'We might allow it to be put this way: All 1940's and 1950's stories did happen, except where they conflict with stories which have appeared (or will appear) in the current Marvel continuity!'

There are two follow-up letters to this in Invaders #40, but nothing else.

Peter

			*	*	*

Re: some answers to the Administrator
Posted by Administrator on August 20, 2003 at 08:47:42:
In Reply to: some answers to the Administrator
posted by Dan Spears on August 19, 2003 at 23:50:31:

> Unfortunately, I don't still have my early Invaders comics to look it up, but if someone here DOES have the early issues, it shouldn't be too hard to find.  I remember that his decision was that unless a Timely story was SPECIFICALLY mentioned as happening in the Marvel Universe, it should be discounted.  Understandably, this caused a LOT of controversy in the letters column!

This was a setup. Check question #17 in the FAQ.

> Please give me a little credit, OK?  I'm talking about things that aren't quite so extreme, but were still thrown out, such as The Adventures of Captain America, Spider-Man Chapter One, and The Man Without Fear.  

I find it odd that you think there were not major reasons for tossing out Spider-Man: Chapter One. How about this? Why don't you perform an analysis of Spider-Man: Chapter One, then provide us with a suggested chronology that incorporates it, without saying that the Silver Age stories were "wrong."?

And let's not forget that, John Byrne notwithstanding, Marvel editors have told us that Chapter One is not canon.

> > > (which is going to happen more and more often as new writers join the Marvel staff who don't care enough about older Marvel stories to keep their new history consistent with established Marvel history).  

> > Not our problem. That's Marvel's problem.

> Since we're trying to incorporate retro stories into the Marvel Universe timeline when possible, I thought it WAS our problem.

We do try that, "when possible." When not possible, we declare it not canon. The number of times when it's not possible, and not canon, is remarkably small.

> > Let me put it this way. We are not going to throw out Silver Age history, based solely on an inconsistency--no matter how minor, no matter how major--in a current story.

> No one said anything about "throwing out" Silver Age history.  Just that a few DETAILS of it may have been supplanted by events that are showing up in current retcon stories.

Well, I guess I'd have to know a little bit more about what you mean by DETAILS. In the example I remember from above, you were discussing the portrayal of Peter and Flash as high school students after FF #50. I would contend it was the details in the *current* story that were wrong, rather than supplanting the "details" from the Silver Age. But I suppose it all boils down to how minor the detail is, in the story in question. As I said earlier, minor details are usually nothing more than small bumps in the road to us.

> It was just meant to be something for people to think about, nothing more.  As I said elsewhere, I'm DEFINITELY not interested in arguing about it.  I'd like to keep this a friendly place to come to at the end of the day.

Thank you. I think it is. Please don't take disagreement--sometimes passionate disagreement--as unfriendliness.

Russ

			*	*	*

Re: some answers to the Administrator
Posted by Dan Spears on August 21, 2003 at 03:05:31:
In Reply to: Re: some answers to the Administrator
posted by Administrator on August 20, 2003 at 08:47:42:

> > Please give me a little credit, OK?  I'm talking about things that aren't quite so extreme, but were still thrown out, such as The Adventures of Captain America, Spider-Man Chapter One, and The Man Without Fear.  

> I find it odd that you think there were not major reasons for tossing out Spider-Man: Chapter One. How about this? Why don't you perform an analysis of Spider-Man: Chapter One, then provide us with a suggested chronology that incorporates it, without saying that the Silver Age stories were "wrong."?

You can't be any fairer than that.  Since I'm not a big Byrne fan (at least, not of his later stuff), I only have a few in my collection right now, but I'll start looking for the set on ebay.  In the meantime, I'll try to get on those Hellstorm #12 through #21 issues that I promised you, which I've read and done notes on, but just have to find the time to type up for the group.

Peace,
Dan

			*	*	*

"Supplanting" history
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2003 at 21:39:00:
In Reply to: some answers to the Administrator
posted by Dan Spears on August 19, 2003 at 23:50:31:

> No one said anything about "throwing out" Silver Age history.

What we are talking about is historical revisionism.  This is precisely what supplanting does.

> Just that a few DETAILS of it may have been supplanted by events that are showing up in current retcon stories.

Then again, retcon in its modern usage tends to have the negative connotation of steamrolling continuity.

BTW, the last poster says he doesn't want to argue.  Please don't take this as such.  At the MCP, the fun is in the details and their discussion.  Or debate.  :->

- SK

			*	*	*

Thor chronology notes; Venus appearances out of place, Petey stories in-continuity
Posted by John McDonagh</a> on August 18, 2003 at 15:24:31:

I looked through Thor's chronology; I was glad to see his Venus' appearances there, but they seem out of place, as VENUS#12 (which I saw an online scan of sometime ago) takes place in the late 1940's (since there are flame throwers and airplanes in the story) when it was published, which would place it after Thor I#370, which takes place in the 1800's (that issue of Thor, by the way overlaps with Black Panther volume III#46-47's appearances of Thor). 

So instead of this;
BIZADV 32-FB
VENUS 12
VENUS 13
T 323
T 370
INV 32
INV 33
M/:LG 5

How about this;

BIZADV 32-FB
T 323
T 370
INV 32
INV 33
*VENUS 12
*VENUS 13
M/:LG 5

Finally, it turns out that Hembeck's Petey stories are in-continuity; http://www.hembeck.com/Petey/Eight/Page1.htm has them reproduced for those interested. Thor appears in Marvel Tales#252/2 to a young Flash Thompson, with Loki also appearing. http://www.hembeck.com/Petey/Ten/Page1.htm shows the Untold Tales of Spider-Man annual 97 with Thor behind the scenes as Donald Blake. (A young Matt Murdock also appears, but the appearance of Dr. Strange as a drunk is a mistake due to the Lost Generation's retcons of his origin.) 

http://www.hembeck.com/Petey.htm
Finally, if you take a gander over nearby, you'll see a small repro of the second page of the first issue of a book called SPIDER-MAN SAGA, the purpose of which was to distill the amazing one's history down into four double size publications, culling carefully chosen panels from the archives to accompany text written by Glenn Herdling. Seeing Petey included in this historical overview meant that, back in 1991 at least, my goofy little stories were considered to be part of the larger, expansive Marvel Universe tapestry,

			*	*	*

Petey canonicity
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 18, 2003 at 21:25:52:
In Reply to: Thor chronology notes; Venus appearances out of place, Petey stories in-continuity
posted by John McDonagh on August 18, 2003 at 15:24:31:

> http://www.hembeck.com/Petey.htm
> you'll see a small repro of the second page of the first issue of a book called SPIDER-MAN SAGA

The SAGA evidence makes it pretty hard to dispute Petey's canonicity.  You'd think Thor and loki would have better things to do, though.  Still, I suppose stranger has happened.

- SK

			*	*	*

Power Pack plus Petey
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2003 at 21:15:46:
In Reply to: Petey canonicity
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 18, 2003 at 21:25:52:

> The SAGA evidence makes it pretty hard to dispute Petey's canonicity.

Assuming that the Power Pack abuse message story is canon, where would it fit in with Petey and our Spider-Man chronology?

- SK

			*	*	*

Re: Petey canonicity
Posted by John Simons on October 31, 2003 at 22:29:00:
In Reply to: Petey canonicity
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 18, 2003 at 21:25:52:

> The SAGA evidence makes it pretty hard to dispute Petey's canonicity.  You'd think Thor and loki would have better things to do, though.  Still, I suppose stranger has happened.

	Okayyyy... so these stories, silly as they are, "happened". Since they are all archived on Hembeck's site, I presume there is no real need for me to analyze them for the project.

	I would humbly remind our Administrator that the entries of Spidey, Sundown, May, JJJ, Betty, Flash, Liz, Jason, Tiny, Daredevil, Giant-Man, Wasp, the Fantastic Four, Captain America, Iron Man, Happy Hogan, Thor, Dr. Strange, Wong, the X-Men, Hulk, Sub-Mariner, and Green Goblin need to be modified so that their "UTSM '97" listing is changed to "UTSM '97/1"

Ditto for the Ben, May, Richard, and Mary Parker entries of UTSM -1/1

			*	*	*

Re: Petey canonicity
Posted by Jeph! on October 31, 2003 at 22:58:45:
In Reply to: Re: Petey canonicity
posted by John Simons on October 31, 2003 at 22:29:00:

>  I would humbly remind our Administrator that the entries of Spidey [et al.] need to be modified so that their "UTSM '97" listing is changed to "UTSM '97/1"

Not so.  In comics with more than one story, the MCP only uses the slash notation to refer to the LATER stories; everything EXCEPT the first or main story.  The first story in the issue is listed normally.

In your example, the first story in "Untold Tales" Annual '97 would be listed as it is, as UTSM '97.  The second story would be listed as UTSM '97/2.

-Jeph!
So how do we determine story numbers for those damned flipbook issues of Marvel Comics Presents?...

			*	*	*

Re: Petey canonicity
Posted by John Simons on November 01, 2003 at 10:26:41:
In Reply to: Re: Petey canonicity
posted by Jeph! on October 31, 2003 at 22:58:45:

	Huh. You would think that after years of using the MCP and lurking on this message board I would've picked up on that little detail. Now that I think about it, I never have seen a  "/1" notation before. <blush>

Roseanne Rosannadanna voice: "Never mind!"

> -Jeph!

> So how do we determine story numbers for those damned flipbook issues of Marvel Comics Presents?...

	That sir, is a very good question. 

			*	*	*

Re: Petey canonicity
Posted by Administrator on November 02, 2003 at 20:03:38:
In Reply to: Re: Petey canonicity
posted by Jeph! on October 31, 2003 at 22:58:45:

> So how do we determine story numbers for those damned flipbook issues of Marvel Comics Presents?...

The first story is on the side with the indicia.

			*	*	*

Fantastic Four minor changes, (around 1998)
Posted by Kevin  on August 18, 2003 at 17:38:35:

I've come across the following in Mr. Fantastic's MCP chronology, and since we're backing up slowly but surely on the calender to this period, (the period just after Heroes Return) I figured I'd point out this finding, and see if I'm correct.

Mr. Fantastic's current chronology looks like this:

FF3 5
T '99
FF3 6
FF3 7
FF3 8
FF3 9-FB-BTS
H2 467-FB
FF3 9
UX/FF '98
FF3 10
FF3 11-BTS
FF3 12
BFF:RR 1
BFF:RR 2
BFF:RR 3
PPTSS 263
S-M 98
SS3 146
A3 10
A3 11
ASM2 1
DD2 8

In FF3 #12, the FF wear for the first time new costumes: instead of the 'blue and black' costumes they wore from FF3 #1 to #10, they now wear a 'blue and white' set of costumes.

After doing a little looking, I show that we have Thor Annual '99 as happening in between FF3 #5 and #6.  That doesn't make sense going by the costume, (and considering that that Thor annual was published in January of '99, (at the same time that FF3 15 was being published, I believe).  Since the events that happen in the "present day" in the T '99 feature the FF throwing a "thank you" party for Thor, for rescuing Franklin from Doctor Doom, (during the Heroes Return incident), I figure the best place to put T' 99 is between FF3 #12 and #13.

Also, when the FF show up to fight in A3 10 and 11, they are wearing the 'black and blue' costumes, and in ASM2, (which closely follows A3 10 and 11) they are also shown wearing the black and blue costumes.  So those would most likely occur BEFORE FF3 10-12.  Mr. Fantastic appears Out of Costume, (I believe) in PPTSS 263 and S-M 98, (those were the issues he operated on Aunt May for Spidey, right before Spidey's titles got rebooted) so those would go before ASM2 1, (and all these issues were all published around the same time, so they wouldn't be a big deal to shuffle around, I think).

So the order for Mr. Fantastic's chronology, (and by direct association, the rest of the FF) should look like this:

FF3 9
UX/FF '98
A3 10
A3 11
PPTSS 263
S-M 98
SS3 146 ?
ASM2 1
FF3 10
FF3 11-BTS
FF3 12
BFF:RR 1 ?
BFF:RR 2 ?
BFF:RR 3 ?
DD2 8
INH2 4
ASM2 4
FF3 13
FF3 14
etc.

I don't have SS3 146, or the BFF:RR miniseries, (those stand for Silver Surfer and Before the Fan. Four: Reed Richards, I believe) so can someone tell me what costumes they were wearing there?

Also, I moved A3 10 and A3 11 before the whole "Green Goblin brings back Aunt May storyline," as at the end of that storyline, Peter gives up being Spidey, till his title is rebooted to ASM2 #1.  (this is open for discussion I suppose: didn't someone a long time ago say they figured Spidey was in A3 10 and 11 AFTER Aunt May is saved in Surgery by Mr. Fantastic in S-M 98, but before he burns the Spidey costume at the end of S-M 98)?

			*	*	*

Re: Fantastic Four minor changes, (around 1998)
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 18, 2003 at 21:04:05:
In Reply to: Fantastic Four minor changes, (around 1998)
posted by Kevin  on August 18, 2003 at 17:38:35:

> I've come across the following in Mr. Fantastic's MCP chronology, and since we're backing up slowly but surely on the calender to this period, (the period just after Heroes Return) I figured I'd point out this finding, and see if I'm correct.

> In FF3 #12, the FF wear for the first time new costumes: instead of the 'blue and black' costumes they wore from FF3 #1 to #10, they now wear a 'blue and white' set of costumes.

> After doing a little looking, I show that we have Thor Annual '99 as happening in between FF3 #5 and #6.  That doesn't make sense going by the costume, (and considering that that Thor annual was published in January of '99, (at the same time that FF3 15 was being published, I believe).  Since the events that happen in the "present day" in the T '99 feature the FF throwing a "thank you" party for Thor, for rescuing Franklin from Doctor Doom, (during the Heroes Return incident), I figure the best place to put T' 99 is between FF3 #12 and #13.

> Also, when the FF show up to fight in A3 10 and 11, they are wearing the 'black and blue' costumes, and in ASM2, (which closely follows A3 10 and 11) they are also shown wearing the black and blue costumes.  So those would most likely occur BEFORE FF3 10-12.  Mr. Fantastic appears Out of Costume, (I believe) in PPTSS 263 and S-M 98, (those were the issues he operated on Aunt May for Spidey, right before Spidey's titles got rebooted) so those would go before ASM2 1, (and all these issues were all published around the same time, so they wouldn't be a big deal to shuffle around, I think).

> So the order for Mr. Fantastic's chronology, (and by direct association, the rest of the FF) should look like this:

> FF3 9<br>> UX/FF '98<br>> A3 10<br>> A3 11<br>> PPTSS 263<br>> S-M 98<br>> SS3 146 ?<br>> ASM2 1<br>> FF3 10<br>> FF3 11-BTS<br>> FF3 12<br>> BFF:RR 1 ?<br>> BFF:RR 2 ?<br>> BFF:RR 3 ?<br>> DD2 8<br>> INH2 4<br>> ASM2 4<br>> FF3 13<br>> FF3 14<br>> etc.

> I don't have SS3 146, or the BFF:RR miniseries, (those stand for Silver Surfer and Before the Fan. Four: Reed Richards, I believe) so can someone tell me what costumes they were wearing there?

Good calls, Kevin!  Judging from the FF's costumes, A3 10-11 must occur before FF3 10-12, which must occur before T '99.

BTW, Reed is not shown in a costume in the BFF:RR series; he's in plain clothes.  This series was published two years after FF3 12, so I'm not sure about the rationale for placement as early as it is.

> Also, I moved A3 10 and A3 11 before the whole "Green Goblin brings back Aunt May storyline," as at the end of that storyline, Peter gives up being Spidey, till his title is rebooted to ASM2 #1.  (this is open for discussion I suppose: didn't someone a long time ago say they figured Spidey was in A3 10 and 11 AFTER Aunt May is saved in Surgery by Mr. Fantastic in S-M 98, but before he burns the Spidey costume at the end of S-M 98)?

Right now, I have A3 11 occurring before S-M 96 (actually, earlier that day).

Thanks for your observations.  They will help streamline my compilation of the calendar for this period.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Fantastic Four minor changes, (around 1998)
Posted by SKleefeld on August 19, 2003 at 12:18:15:
In Reply to: Re: Fantastic Four minor changes, (around 1998)
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 18, 2003 at 21:04:05:

> BTW, Reed is not shown in a costume in the BFF:RR series; he's in plain clothes.  This series was published two years after FF3 12, so I'm not sure about the rationale for placement as early as it is.

I'm still flitting around the board, playing catch-up. (This is finals week, so I should be better for a couple of weeks after this one.)

The rationale for the early placement of BFF:RR is bascially the interaction of Reed and Franklin. The FF are floating around the Negative Zone from about #14-19, and when they get back, there's Franklin's younger sister from the future hanging around, then the two of them get sent to a place called Haven and don't come back until Pier 4's been blowed up.

Since there's no real ripples outside of the story to worry about, it got shoved really early in comparison to it's publication date.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: Fantastic Four minor changes, (around 1998)
Posted by Jim on August 19, 2003 at 19:11:41:
In Reply to: Fantastic Four minor changes, (around 1998)
posted by Kevin  on August 18, 2003 at 17:38:35:

> I don't have SS3 146, or the BFF:RR miniseries, (those stand for Silver Surfer and Before the Fan. Four: Reed Richards, I believe) so can someone tell me what costumes they were wearing there?

In SS3 146, the FF are wearing the blue and black.

Jim

			*	*	*

Ms. Nova...
Posted by Jeph! on August 19, 2003 at 01:56:40:

On the off-chance that Russ doesn't know about this already...

The "Ms. Nova" entry (in the "M" section) is superfluous.  She's already listed under her full name of Cassandra Nova over in the "N" section.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dracula question
Posted by Dan Spears on August 19, 2003 at 03:10:38:

In the Dracula listing, between TOD 48 and 49, there's a listing for an appearance in HOH 12/4, but the Haunt of Horror Magazine only went up to #5.  Is this meant to be the Haunt of Horror Magazine #2, perhaps?  Or is it something different?  If it's Haunt of Horror #2, which was published in July of 74, is there any reason why it's posted so late in Dracula's chronology (TOD 48 and 49 were published in Sep and Oct of 76)?

Thanks!

Dan

			*	*	*

Name that Badoon!
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 19, 2003 at 11:46:53:

Does anyone know if the Badoon 'Thanos worshipper' was ever given a name?  He appears in the myriad of flashbacks to Moondragon & Drax's car accident (pre-superpowers) and was seen in a number of 70's Thanos appearances as a member of his crew.  AFAIK, his final appearance was in the Death of Captain Marvel.

Any help (and/or a list of his appearances) would be much appreciated.

- SK

			*	*	*

The Chronologists #4
Posted by SKleefeld on August 19, 2003 at 15:31:02:

Heh... I just saw that thread from a week or so ago about The Big Three. I took a quick break from studying to do this...
http://www.ffplaza.com/images/covers/misc/chronologists4.jpg

Apologies to Russ and Jeph -- I don't know what you guys look like to modify the image accordingly.  But it's kind of fun anyway.  :)

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: The Chronologists #4
Posted by Russ on August 19, 2003 at 17:51:52:
In Reply to: The Chronologists #4
posted by SKleefeld on August 19, 2003 at 15:31:02:

> Apologies to Russ and Jeph -- I don't know what you guys look like to modify the image accordingly.  But it's kind of fun anyway.  :)

Don't know what you mean...I look just like you've drawn me.

			*	*	*

Re: The Chronologists #4
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 19, 2003 at 20:58:41:
In Reply to: Re: The Chronologists #4
posted by Russ on August 19, 2003 at 17:51:52:

> > Apologies to Russ and Jeph -- I don't know what you guys look like to modify the image accordingly.  But it's kind of fun anyway.  :)

> Don't know what you mean...I look just like you've drawn me.

That may be so, but I'm much shinier than portrayed.

(I got a good laugh from that cover.  Thanks, Sean.)

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: The Chronologists #4
Posted by Jeph! on August 20, 2003 at 01:10:26:
In Reply to: Re: The Chronologists #4
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 19, 2003 at 20:58:41:

> > > Apologies to Russ and Jeph -- I don't know what you guys look like to modify the image accordingly.  But it's kind of fun anyway.  :)

> > Don't know what you mean...I look just like you've drawn me.

Wait, Sean is Cap AND KIRBY?  Cripes.  I'd better take off my hat.

(George Olshevsky, on the other hand, comes out looking like a punch-drunk hobo there.  Poor fellow.)

> That may be so, but I'm much shinier than portrayed.

For my part, I'd just as soon people think I look like Thor.  ;-)

> (I got a good laugh from that cover.  Thanks, Sean.)

Ditto.  Good job, guy -- now get back to studying!  We need you back here with your comic-analyzing faculties intact!

-Jeph!
(or, put another way, good luck on your finals.)

			*	*	*

Re: The Chronologists #4
Posted by SKleefeld on August 20, 2003 at 07:52:35:
In Reply to: Re: The Chronologists #4
posted by Jeph! on August 20, 2003 at 01:10:26:

> > > > Apologies to Russ and Jeph -- I don't know what you guys look like to modify the image accordingly.  But it's kind of fun anyway.  :)

> > > Don't know what you mean...I look just like you've drawn me.

> Wait, Sean is Cap AND KIRBY?  Cripes.  I'd better take off my hat.

No need. Just the first cover I thought of that I knew had Cap, IM, and Thor on it and wouldn't be too terrible to edit. Namor was a bonus.

> (George Olshevsky, on the other hand, comes out looking like a punch-drunk hobo there.  Poor fellow.)

Reference photo I used for George: 
http://www.dinosaur.org/bzolshevsky.jpg

Granted, it's a bit dated and he looks a bit more mature (i.e. grey) now, but...

> > That may be so, but I'm much shinier than portrayed.

Shiney, happy people smiling. 

> For my part, I'd just as soon people think I look like Thor.  ;-)

Ah, so you ARE a long-haired hippie.  :)

> > (I got a good laugh from that cover.  Thanks, Sean.)

> Ditto.  Good job, guy -- now get back to studying!  We need you back here with your comic-analyzing faculties intact!

Glad you all enjoyed it.

But I've still got about another year on my Master's so my chronologizing won't be as active as I'd like for a while longer. But I'm still mostly here.

> (or, put another way, good luck on your finals.)

Thanks. Tonight's I'm not worried about, but tomorrow's is gonna stink.

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Re: The Chronologists #4
Posted by Kevin  on August 20, 2003 at 09:01:52:
In Reply to: The Chronologists #4
posted by SKleefeld on August 19, 2003 at 15:31:02:

Hey!  I didn't know I, (er, I mean Spiderman) was around to see Captain Kleefeld thawed out from the ice!  This is obviously an insidious plot to create a chronology error!  I suspect Loki the trickster is behind it...

Hmmm...if The Chronologists need a villian, then I guess the Editor in Chief at Marvel can be Loki the trickster, (cause it's the Editor's job to make sure the titles obey chronology, yet more and more, they're letting the writers ignore continuity, thus putting us Chronologists at odds with them!)  

			*	*	*

Re: The Chronologists #4
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 20, 2003 at 21:26:30:
In Reply to: Re: The Chronologists #4
posted by Kevin  on August 20, 2003 at 09:01:52:

> Hey!  I didn't know I, (er, I mean Spiderman) was around to see Captain Kleefeld thawed out from the ice!  This is obviously an insidious plot to create a chronology error!  I suspect Loki the trickster is behind it...

> Hmmm...if The Chronologists need a villian, then I guess the Editor in Chief at Marvel can be Loki the trickster, (cause it's the Editor's job to make sure the titles obey chronology, yet more and more, they're letting the writers ignore continuity, thus putting us Chronologists at odds with them!)  

Let's call the villain the evil Retcon.  We can give him a lackey named the Non-Canon-Ball.  I can see the title of the story..."The Wrath of Retcon."

			*	*	*

Iron Man alternate Origins
Posted by BigLion on August 19, 2003 at 17:31:51:

I have lately come across some disturbaces in the force with regards to Iron Man's origin- the writers of the putative Iron Man movie (!) are suggesting, as also heard in Marvel Action Hour, that Tony Stark was injured in a fight during an attempted takeover of Stark International by Justin Hammer. More unbeleivably Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #4 has Peter Parker retelling the origin in a class presentation with reference to TS in Guatamala being kidnapped by the 'Red bandits' or somesuch nonsense (I don't have my copy to hand) and creating the suit to rescue the other hostages from the terrorists.

How does this fit in with the MCP?- clearly this retelling should not be taken as gospell

			*	*	*

Re: Iron Man alternate Origins
Posted by Administrator on August 19, 2003 at 18:08:36:
In Reply to: Iron Man alternate Origins
posted by BigLion on August 19, 2003 at 17:31:51:

> How does this fit in with the MCP?

It doesn't, any more than the Spider-Man movie, which shows Peter and Mary Jane attending the same high school, or the first X-Men movie, which shows Wolverine and Rogue joining at the same time, or the Hulk tv show, which showed the Hulk brought out by an experiment in adrenalin.

			*	*	*

Re: Iron Man alternate Origins
Posted by garbonzo on August 19, 2003 at 19:14:15:
In Reply to: Iron Man alternate Origins
posted by BigLion on August 19, 2003 at 17:31:51:

> How does this fit in with the MCP?- clearly this retelling should not be taken as gospell

There have been some minor tweakings of his origin, but mostly these can be chalked up to those "topical references" we have heard so much about recently.  Besides, anything in the Ultimate line is in its own continuity.

			*	*	*

Tiwaz entry note; he is the same entity as Buri
Posted by John McDonagh on August 19, 2003 at 19:31:13:

Tiwaz is actually the same entity as Buri, the first of the Asgardian gods. As such, you may wish to have the entry as;

TIWAZ/BURI
*JIM 97/2
T 355
NM 83
NM 84

Hope this helps.

			*	*	*

The Perils of Chronologizing!!
Posted by Jim on August 19, 2003 at 19:44:28:

Sometimes it scares me.

But if anyone can help me its the MCP.

In my own attempts to put the lives of Marvel's Heroes into some sort of logical order I have always been vexed by the question of time's passing, and the ages of the heroes.

It seems to me that time is continually compressed, since FF# 1, how many years have passed?  My guesstimate is about 20...so, here's where I implore the astute minds of the MCP to help put this into some sort of timeline.  I'll number the problems:

1) Sept 11th attacks.  Canon?  (Wherefore Amazing Spider-Man 36?)

2) If yes, this puts the FF Flight sometime in the early 80's (?!)

3) If yes furthermore, what of Marvel: The Lost Generation?  It seems to say something different.

4) It appears Amazing Spider-Man 36 is almost a focal point for everything before and after in terms of time.

5) How long can time be compressed?!  I mean, yikes!  30 years ago, four years passed amid the range of 50 issues of FF, how must we see things now?  Soon our heroes will be fighting some menace or other EVERY SINGLE DAY.  No rest for the weary.

6) Does Marvel have an official line on the ages of their heroes, (or a rough estimation)?

Sorry for the length of this, and I hope I'm not just treading over old problems that were solved before...it brings to mind the opening montage of Universe X # 11..." AND FOR THE [CHRONOLOGIZERS], THERE WILL BE NOTHING NEW TO [CHRONOLOGIZE] AT ALL."

Jim

			*	*	*

Re: The Perils of Chronologizing!!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 19, 2003 at 21:21:51:
In Reply to: The Perils of Chronologizing!!
posted by Jim on August 19, 2003 at 19:44:28:

> In my own attempts to put the lives of Marvel's Heroes into some sort of logical order I have always been vexed by the question of time's passing, and the ages of the heroes.

Truly, a topic about which we have given much thought...

> It seems to me that time is continually compressed, since FF# 1, how many years have passed?  My guesstimate is about 20...so, here's where I implore the astute minds of the MCP to help put this into some sort of timeline.  I'll number the problems:

> 1) Sept 11th attacks.  Canon?  (Wherefore Amazing Spider-Man 36?)

Yes, canon.  Although I place this event earlier than events in other comics published at the same time as ASM2 36.

> 2) If yes, this puts the FF Flight sometime in the early 80's (?!)

It depends on your theory of Marvel Time.  We've explored these theories in previous posts.  I'm sure I won't do justice to other theories (such as the "sliding timeline" theory), but I'll summarize mine...

I agree that about 20 MU years or so have passed since FF 1.  But instead of using the ever-shifting present as an anchor, I use the early '60s (1961 or thereabouts; haven't nailed it yet) as the never-changing anchor.  In my theory, it is 1981 or 1982 in the current MU, and MU's early '80s happen to bear a strong resemblance to the early 21st century of our real world.  Thus, the MU 9-11 indeed happened on September 11, but not in 2001.

> 3) If yes furthermore, what of Marvel: The Lost Generation?  It seems to say something different.

Those who respectfully take a different view from mine point to Marvel: The Lost Generation to counter my theory.  I would interpret many chronological references in that series as "topical," in that the references are relevant in terms of the reader's calendar perspective (date of publication), not the MU's.

As I'm busy catching up with things, I'm probably not in a position to enter into lengthy debate on this topic, but if others would like to share other theories, please chime in.

> 4) It appears Amazing Spider-Man 36 is almost a focal point for everything before and after in terms of time.

As far as I'm concerned, only so far as establishing a date of "September 11," not "September 11, 2001."

> 5) How long can time be compressed?!  I mean, yikes!  30 years ago, four years passed amid the range of 50 issues of FF, how must we see things now?  Soon our heroes will be fighting some menace or other EVERY SINGLE DAY.  No rest for the weary.

If you consider 40 years of MU compressed into 20 years, it's not too bad.

> 6) Does Marvel have an official line on the ages of their heroes, (or a rough estimation)?

Yes...they keep getting younger.  Seriously, whenever ages are mentioned, they're consistently lower than what they should be when you consider the passage of Marvel time.  And while I have no problem with Peter Parker in his mid-30s, there is that pesky Franklin Richards dilemma we occasionally discuss.

> Sorry for the length of this, and I hope I'm not just treading over old problems that were solved before...it brings to mind the opening montage of Universe X # 11..." AND FOR THE [CHRONOLOGIZERS], THERE WILL BE NOTHING NEW TO [CHRONOLOGIZE] AT ALL."

No problem.  If someone can point Jim to the best threads on the issues he raises, that would be great.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: The Perils of Chronologizing!!
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 19, 2003 at 21:29:49:
In Reply to: The Perils of Chronologizing!!
posted by Jim on August 19, 2003 at 19:44:28:

> 1) Sept 11th attacks.  Canon?  

Yes.  They've been referenced in, for example, DAREDEVIL: TARGET #1.

>(Wherefore Amazing Spider-Man 36?)

I still have reservations about the canonicity of that particular issue.

> 2) If yes, this puts the FF Flight sometime in the early 80's (?!)

No.  Your logical error - from this point on - is to assume that because the Marvel Universe has alluded to a real-world event from a specific date, the Marvel Universe must forever be locked to that date.

That's not how it works.  The Marvel Universe has alluded to plenty of contemporary real-world events before (or "recent past" events) only for them to quietly recede into memory and fade into becoming generic.  The Fantastic Four fought in World War II; Flash Thompson was drafted; Storm's origin, as originally written, references the Suez Crisis; and Freedom Force were largely killed during the first Gulf War.

All of this has evidently fallen by the wayside, and in due course, the same will happen to September 11.

			*	*	*

Re: The Perils of Chronologizing!!
Posted by Jim on August 19, 2003 at 21:55:55:
In Reply to: Re: The Perils of Chronologizing!!
posted by Paul O'Brien on August 19, 2003 at 21:29:49:

> No.  Your logical error - from this point on - is to assume that because the Marvel Universe has alluded to a real-world event from a specific date, the Marvel Universe must forever be locked to that date.

> That's not how it works.  The Marvel Universe has alluded to plenty of contemporary real-world events before (or "recent past" events) only for them to quietly recede into memory and fade into becoming generic.  The Fantastic Four fought in World War II; Flash Thompson was drafted; Storm's origin, as originally written, references the Suez Crisis; and Freedom Force were largely killed during the first Gulf War.

> All of this has evidently fallen by the wayside, and in due course, the same will happen to September 11.

Yep.  That's a good point.  I wonder if its just a teensy little bit different because at some periods of heroes lives the WTC is in their purview, and now, it ain't.  In this case its art continuity.

We the readers will always read the sagas of our heroes and notice, "Hey, the skyline isn't the same as it was last ish...", and there will be references to reference.  (yeesh) 

Now, I must apologize for continuing what could be seen as really just a morbid issue after all, and now that I think about it more, I'm probably making too much of it (topical and all).

Mr. Bourcier certainly has an interesting theory on this though...1961 as the lynchpin...weird.  It helps explain things though I guess. 

			*	*	*

Re: The Perils of Chronologizing!!
Posted by Kevin  on August 20, 2003 at 09:07:50:
In Reply to: Re: The Perils of Chronologizing!!
posted by Paul O'Brien on August 19, 2003 at 21:29:49:

> > 1) Sept 11th attacks.  Canon?  

> Yes.  They've been referenced in, for example, DAREDEVIL: TARGET #1.

If Kevin Smith never finishes the rest of the Target miniseries, does that mean it's not canon?

That being said, I agree with others that say the Sept. 11th attacks, (as referenced in ASM 36) did happen, it's just the "2001" which will have to be ignored.  Due to the sliding timescale, (and other theories on how the passage of Marvel time works) we must ignore the years of certain events, (like the first Gulf War, Vietnam, etc.)

However, Sept. 11th was such a powerful event on the public consious, (there will be stories written about it forever, just like WW2) I feel that it could over time transform into a second "linchpin" to anchor time, (much like the Golden Age WW2 stories are anchored in time: Cap. America really did fight in WW2, etc.)  How this will work, we would have to wait and see....

			*	*	*

AF2 9 / UX 355 revisited...
Posted by Jeph! on August 20, 2003 at 01:38:41:

Well, folks, I went over my panel-by-panel map of AFv2 #9 and UX #355 and made a few tweaks, streamlines, and changes.  Then I listed everyone who appears in each segment, and deduced their correct individual MCP listings.  As expected, they're around three times as long as the ones currently on the MCP -- which is why I still think it would just be easier to post "AF2 9 ~ UX 355" once in everyone's chronology, and hyperlink it to a page with my map.

Notes before I start:

- Dr. Horatio Huxley, Nightcrawler, and Martha Stone are not, by my understanding, "BTS".  Their voices are clearly heard on-panel -- and in Huxley's case, he's standing on the other side of an on-panel closed door.  Don't these qualify as actual APPEARANCES?  I'd always thought BTS listings were reserved for characters who are literally "BEHIND the scenes" -- they're not SEEN or HEARD but they still affect the story (IE, a mysterious force bolt from off-panel).

- As stated before, there is a FB in AFv2 #9, dealing with a repressed memory from Murmur II's childhood of being locked in a room full of bugs.  (AFv2 #5, by the way, shows Flex's memories of being similarly frightened at the same orphanage, so Murmur's memory is likely a real event.)

- Also, a few notes on my entries below: I know it's not standard MCP policy, but some entries look like this:

(AFv2 #9) ~ UX #355

This indicates that although the AFv2 and UX panels had substantially the same scene and dialogue, slightly more information was present in the UX panel -- more dialogue, generally.  I don't know how we'd present that on the MCP -- lop off the lesser entry and present it as just "UX #355", or remove the parentheses and claim the scenes are "equal enough" -- or, heck, leave them as is! -- but I left them in below, for Russ to do with as he decides.

Also, I know that when a character is present in two scenes of a single issue, ie:

UX #355 p.5 panel 5 (visual and wb 4)
UX #355 p.6 panel 2

even though we're skipping a bit (p.6 panel 1) where the character ISN'T present, it still gets boiled down to just:

UX #355

but, if a character is present in two consecutive overlapping scenes that still skip a bit, ie:

AFv2 #9 p.8 panel 1 ~ UX #355 p.7 panel 7
AFv2 #9 p.8 panel 3 (visual and SFX) ~ UX #355 p.8 panel 1

do we keep the scene overlaps distinct, boiling it down to:

AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355<br>AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355

or do we take it one step farther, and combine them into one entry for both scenes?

AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355

I've left them separate below -- again, if Russ wishes to consolidate them, feel free -- but it's not going to save him that much overall space.  :-)

Enjoy...

-Jeph!

--------

Here's my revised map of the issues' interaction, complete with character appearance lists for each distinct segment that I've isolated.

General panel-by-panel "BTS" notations would be fruitless, as Alpha Flight and Wolverine are brawling in a confined area for the entire issue, so of COURSE any Alphan not shown in a panel is BTS.  Here I'm only using BTS notations if two panels show the same SCENE, but characters are missing from one version of that scene (or if, for example, we see the AF jet  clearly all the AF members are BTS inside the jet).

UX #355 p.1
This page doesn't HAVE to go first, but placing it here doesn't break up the action in the opening pages of AFv2 #9.
Nightcrawler, Margaret Stone, Phoenix (all on phone)

AFv2 #9 pp.1-2, p.3 panel 1
As Clarke watches from Dept. H, Alpha Flight fly down the highway after Wolverine's bike. A slight overlap occurs between pp.1-2, as Clarke's monitor on p.1 broadcasts Sasquatch's dialogue from p.2 panel 1 wb 1  however, there's really no need for a detailed notation on it, as it's two concurrent panels from the same issue.
General Clarke, Flex, Guardian, Manbot, Murmur, Puck, Radius, Sasquatch, Vindicator, Wolverine, Sauron

UX #355 p.2, p.3 panel 1
Wolvie, carting Sauron, drives down the highway.
Wolverine, Sauron

AFv2 #9 p.3 panel 2
Guardian says he's "moving in for a closer look".
Guardian, Wolverine, Sauron

UX #355 p.3 panel 2
In the background, you can see AF's jet moving in closer.
Wolverine, Sauron, (Flex, Guardian, Manbot, Murmur, Puck, Radius, Sasquatch, Vindicator  all BTS)

AFv2 #9 p.3 panel 3 ~ UX #355 p.3 panel 3
Wolvie stares over his shoulder at the jet. The UX panel contains more information  Wolvie and Sauron's dialogue. The AFv2 panel is silent.
Wolverine (more in UX), Sauron (more in UX), (Flex, Guardian, Manbot, Murmur, Puck, Radius, Sasquatch, Vindicator  all BTS)

AFv2 #9 p.3 panel 4
The jet swoops over Wolvie's head and he loses his balance
Wolverine, Sauron, (Flex, Guardian, Manbot, Murmur, Puck, Radius, Sasquatch, Vindicator  all BTS)

UX #355 p.3 panels 4-6
and Sauron falls off the bike, followed by Wolvie.
Wolverine, Sauron, (Flex, Guardian, Manbot, Murmur, Puck, Radius, Sasquatch, Vindicator  all BTS)

AFv2 #9 p.4
Meanwhile, Clarke is distracted by Ghost Girl acting up. This seems to take place seconds after the action in AFv2 #9 p.3.
General Clarke, Lilli (Ghost Girl)

UX #355 p.4
Meanwhile, Rogue has her appointment with Dr. Agee.
Rogue, Dr. Agee, Martha (secretary, BTS)

AFv2 #9 p.5 panels 1-3
Alpha Flight park farther down the highway and disembark. Placed before UX #355 p.5 panels 1-3 because of Guardian's order to "prepare for immediate extrusion!" on p.3 panel 4.
Flex, Guardian, Manbot (BTS), Murmur, Puck, Radius, Sasquatch, Vindicator (BTS)

UX #355 p.5 panels 1-3
Back on the bike, Wolvie continues down the highway.
Wolverine, Sauron

AFv2 #9 p.5 panel 4 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.5 panel 4
Wolvie: "What the?!".
Wolverine

AFv2 #9 p.5 panel 4 (visual and SFX)
Wolvie's bike screeches to a halt.
Wolverine, Sauron

AFv2 #9 p.5 panel 5 ~ UX #355 p.5 panel 5 (wb 1 only)
Guardian: "Hello  Weapon X." The "correct" visual comes from the AFv2 panel, where Vindicator hasn't taken off yet.
Guardian (both), (Flex, Manbot, Murmur, Puck, Radius, Sasquatch, Vindicator  just AF)

AFv2 #9 p.6 panel 1 (visual and wbs 1-2) ~ UX #355 p.5 panel 5 (wbs 2-3 only)
The "correct" visual comes from the AFv2 panel  in the UX panel, Wolvie and Sauron's dialogue is coming from offscreen.
Wolverine, Sauron

UX #355 p.5 panel 5 (visual and wb 4)
Vindicator takes to the air, and Wolvie speaks a line not included in AFv2 #9 p.6 panel 1.
Wolverine, Flex, Guardian, Manbot, Murmur, Puck, Radius, Sasquatch, Vindicator

AFv2 #9 p.6 panel 1 (wb 3) ~ UX #355 p.5 panel 5 (wb 5)
Wolvie: "An' somethin' smells, all right." The UX panel has the "correct" dialogue  Wolvie says "An'" rather than AFv2's "And".
Wolverine (more in UX)

AFv2 #9 p.6 panel 2 ~ UX #355 p.6 panel 1 (wbs 1-2) [shared visual]
The UX panel, wb 2, contains the "correct" dialogue  Guardian adds an extra word, addressing Wolvie as "Logan".
Guardian (more in UX)

UX #355 p.6 panel 1 (wb 3)
An added line for Guardian.
Guardian

UX #355 p.6 panel 2
Wolvie walks towards Alpha Flight.
Wolverine, Sauron, Flex (BTS  standing behind Sasquatch), Guardian, Manbot, Murmur, Puck, Radius, Sasquatch, Vindicator

AFv2 #9 p.6 panel 3 ~ UX #355 p.6 panel 3
Wolvie lights a cigarette. The AF panel contains more information  Sauron is visible.
Wolverine, Sauron (BTS in UX panel)

AFv2 #9 p.6 panels 4-5
Flex and Radius chatter as Wolvie walks up to Guardian.
Wolverine, Flex, Guardian, Radius

UX #355 p.6 panels 4-7
Wolvie stops in front of Guardian and circles him, sniffing.
Wolverine, Guardian

AFv2 #9 p.7 panels 1-2
Clarke returns to the monitors.
General Clarke, Ghost Girl

UX #355 p.7 panels 1-2
Vindicator lands in front of Wolvie.
Wolverine, Vindicator

AFv2 #9 p.7 panels 3
In panel 3 Clarke watches the events of UX #355 p.7 panels 1-2 on a monitor with intermittent audio. Not exactly a "~", since one scene takes place in the US and the other in Canada, with the US events on a monitor.
General Clarke, Ghost Girl

AFv2 #9 p.7 panels 4-5
The video feed gives out. These panels take place at the same time as UX #355 p.7 panels 3-5.
General Clarke, Ghost Girl

UX #355 p.7 panels 3-6
Wolvie talks to the rest of AF.
Wolverine, Flex, Manbot, Puck, Radius, Sasquatch, Vindicator

AFv2 #9 p.7 panel 6
The video feed returns, just in time to catch UX #355 p.7 panel 6 (wb 5). (Also not "~" because of the different setting  the UX scene is the events; the AFv2 scene is Clarke watching the events.)
General Clarke

AFv2 #9 p.8 panel 1 ~ UX #355 p.7 panel 7
Wolvie extrudes one claw.
Wolverine, Radius

AFv2 #9 p.8 panel 2
Clarke muses.
General Clarke

AFv2 #9 p.8 panel 3 (visual and SFX) ~ UX #355 p.8 panel 1
Wolvie impales his cigarette on his claw and, in the UX panel, talks tough with Radius.
Wolverine, Radius

UX #355 p.8 panel 2
Wolvie stomps on his cigarette.
Wolverine

AFv2 #9 p.8 panel 3 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.8 panel 3 (partial wb 1)
The only repetition here is Wolvie's line "Hey, gorgeous." Chalk the differing visuals up to a delayed video feed on Clarke's monitors.
Wolverine

AFv2 #9 p.8 panel 4 (wbs 1 and partial 2)
Murmur: "Moi?"
Wolvie: "Vouz. Nice to see Alpha's still recruiting lookers, and"
Wolverine, Murmur

AFv2 #9 p.8 panel 4 (rest of wb 2, wb 3) ~ UX #355 p.8 panel 3 (visual and rest of wb 1, wb 2)
Wolvie: "I always notice a pretty face."
Murmur: "Why, thank you, monsieur."
The UX panel (wb 2) contains Murmur's "correct" dialogue  in the AFv2 panel, Murmur does not say "why".
Wolverine, Murmur (more in UX)

AFv2 #9 p.8 panel 4 (visual, wb 4 and SFX) ~ UX #355 p.8 panel 3 (SFX), panel 4 (wb 1)
Wolvie heads for his bike.
Wolverine (both), (Murmur, Sauron  just in AF)

UX #355 p.8 panel 4 (visual and wbs 2-3)
Wolvie prepares to leave.
Wolverine, Sauron

AFv2 #9 p.8 panels 5-6
Clarke watches Wolvie leaving (again with audio and video that dont quite match the UX events).
General Clarke

UX #355 p.8 panel 5 (visual and wbs 1-3)
Wolvie says an acid goodbye to Guardian.
Wolverine, Sauron, Guardian, Vindicator

AFv2 #9 p.9 panel 1 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.8 panel 5 (wb 4)
The UX wb contains the "correct" dialogue; with the additional word "so".
Wolverine (more in UX)

UX #355 p.8 panel 6
Wolvie rides off, leaving AF silent.
Wolverine, Sauron, Guardian, Manbot, Radius, Sasquatch, Vindicator

AFv2 #9 p.9 panel 1 (visual and wbs 2-3), panels 2-6
As Wolvie gets a little farther off, Radius pipes up. Guardian decides to go after Wolvie.
Wolverine, Sauron, Flex, Guardian, Manbot, Murmur, Puck, Radius, Sasquatch, Vindicator

UX #355 pp.9-10
Meanwhile in Alaska, Scott and Jean argue about the Phoenix costume.
Cyclops, Phoenix

AFv2 #9 p.10
Meanwhile in Toronto, Sunfire decides to return to Japan.
Sunfire, Dr. Huxley (voice only)

AFv2 #9 p.11 panels 1-2
Guardian catches up to Wolvie, and prepares to fire on him.
Wolverine, Sauron, Guardian

UX #355 p.11 panel 1
Wolvie talks to Sauron.
Wolverine, Sauron

AFv2 #9 p.11 panel 3 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.11 panel 2 (wb 1) [shared visual and SFX]
Wolvie is interrupted as Guardian fires. The AFv2 panel contains the "correct" dialogue  Wolvie says "hell" rather than UX's "heck"  and contains more information  Guardian is visible.
Wolverine (more in AF), Sauron, Guardian (BTS in UX panel)

AFv2 #9 p.11 panel 3 (wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.11 panel 3 (wb 1)
Guardian: "Following through."
Guardian

UX #355 p.11 panel 3 (visual, SFX, and wb 2)
Wolvie and Sauron go flying. The bike skids off the road with a "SKUCCHT".
Sauron: "Whaaah"
Wolverine, Sauron, Guardian

AFv2 #9 p.11 panel 4 (visual, wb 1 and SFX)
Wolvie's bike bounces with a "CHASSH". Wolvie and Sauron still haven't landed.
Wolverine, Guardian, Sauron

UX #355 p.11 panel 4, p.12 panel 1 (visual and SFX)
Sauron hits the ground: "Unfh!"
Logan collides with him: "KLUDD".
And the bike hits the ground again.
Wolverine, Sauron

AFv2 #9 p.11 panel 4 (wbs 2-3) ~ UX #355 p.12 panel 1 (wbs 1-2)
Wolvie: "Ufff!"
Sauron: "Aaah!"
Wolverine, Sauron

AFv2 #9 p.12 panels 1-2 ~ UX #355 p.12 panels 2-3
Wolvie unsheathes his claws and jumps at Guardian.
Wolverine, Guardian

AFv2 #9 p.12 panel 3
Guardian freezes, remembering an earlier attack by Wolvie.
Guardian

AFv2 #9 p.12 panel 4 (visual) ~ UX #355 p.12 panel 4
Wolverine connects with Guardian.
Wolverine, Guardian

AFv2 #9 p.12 panel 4 (wbs 1-2)
An added line for Wolvie -- as he strikes, he chides Guardian for daydreaming.
Wolverine

AFv2 #9 p.13 panels 1-3
Alpha Flight follows their headstrong leader.
Sauron, Flex, Manbot, Murmur, Puck, Radius, Sasquatch, Vindicator

UX #355 p.13 panels 1-2
Sauron tries to flee.
Sauron

AFv2 #9 p.13 panel 4 (wb 1)
Murmur orders Sasquatch to "Stay".
Murmur

AFv2 #9 p.13 panel 4 (visual and wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.13 panel 3 (SFX and wb 1)
Sauron collides with Sasquatch with a "THUP" and a "W-uh?"
Sauron (both), (Murmur, Sasquatch  just in AF)

UX #355 p.13 panel 3 (visual)
Sauron falls down.
Sauron

AFv2 #9 p.13 panel 4 (wbs 3-4) ~ UX #355 p.13 panel 4 (visual and wbs 1-2)
Murmur: "Were you going somewhere, Monsieur sack?"
Sauron: "Uh-Oh"
(Sauron, Murmur  both), Sasquatch (just in UX)

AFv2 #9 p.13 panel 5 (wb 1)
Murmur: "Hit!"
Murmur

AFv2 #9 p.13 panel 5 (SFX 1) ~ UX #355 p.13 panel 4 (wb 3)
Sasquatch: "GROARWL!"
Sasquatch

AFv2 #9 p.13 panel 5 (SFX 2) ~ UX #355 p.13 panel 5
Sasquatch hits Sauron.
Sauron, Sasquatch

AFv2 #9 p.13 panel 5 (SFX 3)
Sauron hits the gas pump with a "SMASH".
Sauron

AFv2 #9 p.13 panel 5 (wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.13 panel 6 (wb 1) [shared visual]
Sauron: "Ghuffh!" The AFv2 panel contains more information  Murmur and Sasquatch are visible.
Sauron, (Murmur, Sasquatch  both BTS in UX panel)

UX #355 p.13 panel 6 (wb 2), panel 7
Sauron: "unh..!"
A mechanical crow records the fight.
Sauron

UX #355 p.14 panels 1-4
Rogue spies orange pyrotechnics (that don't have an AFv2 visual analogue, so pop in a "BTS" for Vindicator here), and investigates.
Vindicator (BTS), Rogue

AFv2 #9 p.14 panels 1-4
Wolvie brawls with Alpha Flight.
Wolverine, Flex, Guardian, Manbot, Puck, Radius, Vindicator, Rogue

AFv2 #9 p.14 panel 5 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.14 panel 5 (wb 1)
Rogue calls out to Wolvie.
Rogue

AFv2 #9 p.14 panel 5 (wb 2)
An added line for Vindicator: "X-Men?!"
Vindicator

AFv2 #9 p.14 panel 5 (wbs 3-5) ~ UX #355 p.14 panel 5 (wbs 2-4) [shared visual]
The UX panel contains a fuller, "correct" visual (Murmur and Sasquatch are visible), but the AFv2 panel (wb 3) has Wolvie's "correct" dialogue  the added word "Rogue!"
Wolverine (more in AF), Flex, Guardian, Manbot, Puck, Radius, Vindicator, Rogue, (Murmur, Sasquatch  both BTS in UX panel)

UX #355 p.14 panel 6 (visual)
As Puck prepares to tackle Wolvie, Wolvie jumps down off Manbot and slashes Radius.
Wolverine, Puck, Radius

AFv2 #9 p.15 panel 1 ~ UX #355 p.14 panel 6 (wb 1), panel 7 (wb 1)
Guardian blasts at Wolvie and Rogue flies off. Wolvie kicks Radius, knocking him down, and Puck moves to tackle him from behind.
Wolverine (both), (Guardian, Puck, Radius, Rogue  just in AF)

UX #355 p.14 panel 7 (visual), panel 8
Wolvie elbows Puck in the face. Rogue, on her way to get the rest of the X-Men, shouts over her shoulder.
Wolverine, Puck, Rogue

AFv2 #9 p.15 panels 2-3 ~ UX #355 p.15 panels 1-2
Puck and Wolvie fight. The UX panels contain more information  the combatants' dialogue. The AFv2 panels are silent.
Wolverine (more in UX), Puck (more in UX)

UX #355 p.15 panel 3, panel 4 (wb 1)
Puck kicks Wolvie in the face.
Wolverine, Puck

AFv2 #9 p.15 panel 4 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.15 panel 4 (wb 2) [shared visual]
Puck: "Ghuff!"
Wolverine, Puck

AFv2 #9 p.15 panels 5-6
Flex and Radius bicker, and Radius decides to use Flex against Wolverine.
Flex, Radius

AFv2 #9 p.15 panel 7 (visual and wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.15 panel 5 (wb 1)
Radius throws Flex at Wolverine. The AFv2 panel (wb 1) contains Radius' "correct" dialogue  the added word "so" (but it also contains a typo, as Radius' command ends in a question mark).
Flex (just in AF), Radius (both, more in AF)

AFv2 #9 p.15 panel 7 (wb 2)
Flex screams.
Flex

AFv2 #9 p.16 panels 1-2 ~ UX #355 p.15 panel 5 (visual and wb 2)
Wolvie: "Flex--? What's a 'Flex'?"
Wolverine

UX #355 p.15 panels 6-7
Flex screams (again) and manages to morph his arm into a blade.
Flex, Radius

AFv2 #9 p.16 panel 3 ~ UX #355 p.15 panel 8
Wolvie unsheathes his claws.
Wolverine

UX #355 p.15 panels 9-10
Wolvie retracts his claws at the last second and Flex hits Wolvie's fist with his face.
Wolverine, Flex

AFv2 #9 p.16 panel 4
Flex rebounds as Guardian and Vindicator circle.
Wolverine, Flex, Guardian, Radius, Vindicator

AFv2 #9 p.16 panel 5 (wbs 1-2, partial wb 3) ~ UX #355 p.16 panel 1
Guardian and Vindicator blast at Wolvie, who runs. The UX panel (wb 3) contains the "correct" dialogue  Wolvie's added phrase, "Gee, I don't know."
Wolverine (both, more in UX), Guardian (both), Vindicator (just in UX)

AFv2 #9 p.16 panel 5 (rest of wb 3) ~ UX #355 p.16 panel 2 (wb 1)
The UX panel (wb 1) contains the "correct" dialogue  Wolvie's added line "A good scrap's fun, but"
Wolverine (more in UX)

AFv2 #9 p.16 panel 5 (visual, SFX, wbs 4-6)
Murmur and Sasquatch poke Sauron.
Wolverine, Sauron, Guardian, Murmur, Sasquatch, Vindicator

AFv2 #9 p.16 panel 6 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.16 panel 2 (visual and wb 2)
Wolvie makes a stand in front of the gas tanks.
Wolverine

UX #355 p.16 panel 3, panel 4 (wbs 1-2)
Vindicator tries to get Wolvie to come quietly, but he declines.
Wolverine, Vindicator

AFv2 #9 p.16 panel 6 (visual, SFX, and wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.16 panel 4 (visual and SFX), panel 5
The UX panel 5 contains Vindicator's "correct" dialogue  the added phrase "we were tracking you".
Wolverine, Guardian, Vindicator (more in UX)

UX #355 p.16 panel 6
Guardian and Vindicator begin to realize they're wrong.
Wolverine, Guardian, Vindicator

AFv2 #9 p.17 panel 1 (SFX) ~ UX #355 p.16 panel 7
Sasquatch hits Wolvie from behind.
(Wolverine, Sasquatch  both), Murmur (voice only, only in UX)

AFv2 #9 p.17 panel 1 (wb 1)
Guardian yells at Sasquatch.
Guardian

AFv2 #9 p.17 panel 1 (visual) ~ UX #355 p.17 panel 1 (visual)
Wolvie goes flying into some boxes. The AFv2 panel contains more information  Vindicator, Guardian, Puck and Radius are visible. Strangely, though. Sasquatch is not.
Wolverine, (Guardian, Puck, Radius, Vindicator  all BTS in UX panel)

UX #355 p.17 panel 1 (wb 1)
Wolverine: "Ufff!"
Wolverine

UX #355 p.17 panels 2-3
Wolverine launches himself back at Sasquatch.
Wolverine

AFv2 #9 p.17 panel 2, panel 3 (wb 1)
Murmur wants more credit for directing Sasquatch's actions. Then: "What?"
Murmur, Sasquatch

AFv2 #9 p.17 panel 3 (visual and wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.17 panel 4
Murmur exclaims "No!" as Wolvie tackles Sasquatch.
Wolverine, Murmur, Sasquatch

AFv2 #9 p.17 panel 3 (wb 3)
An added utterance for Sasquatch: "GAAHK!"
Sasquatch

AFv2 #9 p.17 panel 3 (wb 4) ~ UX #355 p.17 panel 5
Wolvie battles Sasquatch.
Wolverine (just in AF), Sasquatch (both)

UX #355 p.17 panel 6 (wb 1)
Sasquatch growls while fighting Wolvie.
Sasquatch

AFv2 #9 p.17 panel 4 ~ UX #355 p.17 panel 6 (wb 2)
The "correct" visual comes from the AFv2 panel, where the X-Men are soaring through the sky.
(Radius, Cannonball, Maggott, Eanie, Meanie, Storm  only in AF), Rogue (both)

AFv2 #9 p.17 panel 5
Guardian readies himself for battle.
Guardian

UX #355 p.17 panel 6 (visual, wbs 3-5)
The X-Men land and prepare to help Wolvie.
Wolverine, Sasquatch, Cannonball, Maggott, Rogue, Storm

AFv2 #9 p.18 panel 1 (tb 1)
Vindicator has second thoughts.
Vindicator

AFv2 #9 p.18 panel 1 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.18 panel 1 (partial wb 1) [shared visual]
The overlap here is Vindicator's line "Stand your ground, Storm."
Vindicator, Storm

UX #355 p.18 panel 1 (rest of wb 1, wb 2)
Added lines for Vindicator.
Vindicator

AFv2 #9 p.18 panel 1 (wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.18 panel 1 (wb 3)
One overlapping line: "This doesn't concern you."
Vindicator

UX #355 p.18 panel 1 (wb 4)
Added lines for Storm.
Storm

AFv2 #9 p.18 panel 2 (tb 1)
Vindicator has more second thoughts.
Vindicator

AFv2 #9 p.18 panel 2 (visual, SFX, wbs 1-3) ~ UX #355 p.18 pop-out panel 2, panel 3 (visual, SFX)
Storm hits Vindicator with lightning. The UX pop-out panel 2 (the superimposed image of Storm, wb 1) contains Storm's "correct" dialogue  the added word "that".
Vindicator, Storm (more in UX)

UX #355 p.18 panel 3 (wb 1)
Vindicator: "Aagh!"
Vindicator

AFv2 #9 p.18 panel 3
Vindicator flies uncontrollably through the sky.
Vindicator

UX #355 p.18 panel 4
Rogue orders Maggott to check the gas station.
Vindicator, Maggott, Rogue

AFv2 #9 p.18 panel 4 ~ UX #355 p.18 panel 5 (wb 1)
Vindicator lands with a SMASH as Maggott's slugs head straight for Murmur, Eenie saying "Zziel".
(Murmur, Vindicator, Eanie, Meanie  just in AF), Maggott (both)

UX #355 p.18 panel 5 (visual, wbs 2-4)
The slugs run straight past Murmur  Meanie now saying "Zziell!" In the background, we see Vindicator's crash site, milliseconds after she landed  her trail is still smoking and debris still hangs in the air. BTS for her here?
Murmur, Radius, Vindicator (BTS), Maggott, Eanie, Meanie, Rogue

UX #355 p.18 panel 6 (wb 1, partial wb 2)
(wb 2) cuts off at "know 'em..?"
Maggott

AFv2 #9 p.18 panel 5 (visual) ~ UX #355 p.18 panel 6 (rest of wb 2)
The UX panel (wb 2) contains Maggott's "correct" dialogue  the added word "Girls!"
(Murmur, Eanie, Meanie  just in AF), Maggott (both, more in UX)

AFv2 #9 p.18 panel 6
Murmur is frightened by the slugs.
Murmur

UX #355 p.18 panel 6 (visual)
Maggott watches the slugs run off into the woods as Sasquatch sneaks up behind him.
Murmur, Sasquatch, Maggott, Eanie, Meanie

AFv2 #9 p.19 panel 1 ~ UX #355 p.19 panel 1 (wbs 1-2)
Rogue flies up to Wolvie and Radius.
Wolverine (just in AF), (Radius, Rogue  both)

AFv2 #9 p.19 panel 2 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.19 panel 1 (partial wb 3)
Rogue: "Don't get excited, it's just a sayin' with me."
The AFv2 panel contains Rogue's "correct" dialogue  the added word "it's".
Rogue (more in AF)

UX #355 p.19 panel 1 (visual, rest of wb 3, wbs 4-5)
Wolvie offers Radius to Rogue. The figure visible behind (wb 5) must, by process of elimination, be Storm.
Wolverine, Guardian, Puck, Radius, Sasquatch, Maggott, Rogue, Storm

AFv2 #9 p.19 panel 2 (visual), panels 3-4
Rogue flies off with Radius, throws him down, and pummels him with a multitude of right-handed blows while preparing a left.
Wolverine, Radius, Rogue

UX #355 p.19 panels 2-6
Rogue hits Radius with a left, and Radius begins to get some good hits in.
Radius, Rogue

AFv2 #9 p.19 panel 5
As Rogue gets another right in, Flex wakes up.
Flex, Radius, Rogue

UX #355 p.19 panel 7 (wb 1)
Rogue: "Keep it up, an' ah just might be."
Rogue

AFv2 #9 p.19 panel 6 ~ UX #355 p.19 panel 7 (wbs 2-3) [shared visual]
The UX panel contains more information  Rogue and Radius' fight is still visible.
Flex, Cannonball, (Radius, Rogue  both BTS in AFv2 panel)

AFv2 #9 p.19 panel 7 ~ UX #355 p.19 panel 8 (wb 1) [shared visual]
Cannonball stops short in front of Flex: "You serious?"
Flex, Cannonball

UX #355 p.19 panel 8 (wbs 2-3)
Added lines for Cannonball and Flex.
Flex, Cannonball

UX #355 p.20 panel 1
Cannonball and Flex survey the fight.
Flex, Cannonball

AFv2 #9 p.20 panel 1 ~ UX #355 p.20 panel 2 (wb 1)
Puck leaps for Wolvie. The UX panel (wb 1) contains Wolvie's "correct" dialogue  the added word "the".
Wolverine (both, more in UX), (Guardian, Puck  just in AF)

UX #355 p.20 panel 2 (visual, wbs 2-4)
Puck connects with Wolvie.
Wolverine, Guardian, Puck

UX #355 p.20 panel 3 (visual, wbs 1-2)
Storm hovers over a crouching Vindicator.
Vindicator, Storm

AFv2 #9 p.20 panel 2 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.20 panel 3 (wb 3)
Storm: "You act as though you have been brainwashed."
Storm

UX #355 p.20 panel 3 (wb 4)
Vindicator: "Rainwa?"
Vindicator

AFv2 #9 p.20 panel 2 (visual)
Vindicator launches herself at Storm.
Vindicator, Storm

UX #355 p.20 panel 4
Maggott propositions Murmur.
Murmur, Maggott

AFv2 #9 p.20 panel 3 ~ UX #355 p.20 panel 5
Sasquatch hits Maggott with Sauron. The AFv2 panel contains the "correct" visual  Murmur is visible  but the UX panel (wb 1) contains Sauron's "correct" dialogue  the added exclamation "Duffh!"
Sauron (more in UX), Murmur (BTS in UX panel), Sasquatch, Maggott

UX #355 p.20 panel 6 (visual and wb 1)
Murmur prepares to touch the fallen Maggott.
Murmur, Maggott

AFv2 #9 p.20 panel 4 (partial wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.20 panel 6 (wb 2)
Murmur: "Slee--"
Murmur

AFv2 #9 p.20 panel 4 (visual and rest of wb 1), panel 5
Murmur begins to scream, unnerved by a memory from her past.
Sauron, Murmur, Sasquatch, Maggott

UX #355 p.21 panel 1
Murmur, touching Maggott, continues to scream, and Rogue and Radius continue to fight. (It's hard to tell, but I take these two images as one panel.)
Murmur, Radius, Maggott, Rogue

AFv2 #9 p.21 panel 1 (visual and wb 1)
Murmur, her hands off Maggott, is still screaming.
Manbot, Murmur, Maggott

AFv2 #9 p.21 panel 1 (wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.21 panel 2 (visual and wb 1)
Manbot: "Subject sighted."
Manbot (both), (Wolverine, Guardian, Puck  just in UX)

AFv2 #9 p.21 panel 2 ~ UX #355 p.21 panel 2 (wb 2)
A big battle scene. The UX panel (wb 2) contains Wolvie's "correct" dialogue  he says "o'" instead of "of" in the AFv2 panel.
Wolverine (both, more in UX), (Sauron, Flex, Guardian, Manbot, Murmur, Puck, Radius, Sasquatch, Vindicator, Cannonball, Maggott, Rogue, Storm  just in AF)

AFv2 #9 p.21 panel 3 (visual and wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.21 center panel "3" [shared visual]
Cannonball: "Hey everybody! HEY!"
Cannonball

UX #355 p.21 surrounding reaction panels "4-7"
Everyone stops fighting.
Wolverine, Manbot, Puck, Radius, Sasquatch, Vindicator, Rogue, Storm

AFv2 #9 p.21 panel 3 (wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.21 pop-out panel "8" (visual and wb 1)
Cannonball thinks there's been a big screw-up.
Flex (just in UX), Cannonball (both)

AFv2 #9 p.21 panel 4 ~ UX #355 p.21 pop-out panel "8" (wbs 2-4)
The UX panel (the hovering image of Cannonball and Flex superimposed over the reaction panels of Rogue and Sasquatch) contains Cannonball's "correct" dialogue in wbs 3-4  Cannonball says "Wolvy's wanted for murderin' a guy a couple weeks ago  but we were all in Bastion's jail then." In the AF panel (wbs 2-3), he says "Wolvy's wanted for murderin' a guy a couple DAYS ago  but we were all in BOSTON'S jail then." 'Boston' is an obvious spellcheck mistake for the villain Bastion, and the "weeks" reference is chronologically more accurate than the "days" reference, as we know that six days separate the X-Men's return home from Bastion's jail in X #70 from UX #351-352, and "days" separate UX #352 from X #72, which UX #353-355 take place after.
Flex, Cannonball (more in UX)

AFv2 #9 p.22 panel 1 ~ UX #355 p.22 panel 1 (wb 1)
Wolvie stops throttling Guardian
Wolverine (both), Guardian (just in AF)

UX #355 p.22 panel 1 (visual and wb 2)
and leaps over Manbot.
Wolverine, Manbot

AFv2 #9 p.22 panel 2 (visual and wb 1)
Vindicator lands between Radius and Rogue.
Radius, Vindicator, Rogue

UX #355 p.22 panel 2
Vindicator calms Radius down.
Radius, Vindicator

AFv2 #9 p.22 panel 2 (wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.22 panel 3 (wb 1)
Vindicator has an overlapping line.
Vindicator

AFv2 #9 p.22 panel 3 (wbs 1-2) ~ UX #355 p.22 panel 3 (visual and wb 2)
Vindicator stands by Radius as her memory begins to return. Wolvie picks up Sauron's chains.
(Wolverine, Radius  just in UX), Vindicator (both)

AFv2 #9 p.22 panel 3 (visual and wb 3) ~ UX #355 p.22 panel 3 (partial wb 3)
Vindicator walks over to Wolvie and says "We're being used, and by our own bosses."
(Wolverine, Radius  just in AF), Vindicator (both)

AFv2 #9 p.22 panel 4 (wb 1) ~ UX #355 p.22 panel 3 (rest of wb 3)
Vindicator promises to return home and confront Department H.
Vindicator

UX #355 p.22 panel 3 (wb 4), panel 4
Wolvie stares into the woods: "Sauron..?"
Wolverine

AFv2 #9 p.22 panel 4 (visual and wb 2) ~ UX #355 p.22 panel 5 (wb 1)
The fight over, Wolvie prepares to leave.
Wolverine (both), (Flex, Guardian, Manbot, Radius, Sasquatch, Vindicator, Rogue, Storm  just in AF)

UX #355 p.22 panel 5 (visual and wbs 2-6)
Wolvie says his goodbyes, takes Vindicator's hand, and promises to help her if needed.
Wolverine, Flex, Guardian, Manbot, Murmur, Puck, Radius, Sasquatch, Vindicator, Cannonball, Maggott, Rogue, Storm

AFv2 #9 p.22 panel 5
Close-up on Manbot as he transmits a delayed and distorted version of the events in UX #355 p.22 panel 5 (wb 2). (That word ballon should be coming FROM Manbot, not from off-camera  it's already distorted and is a "transmission"-type bubble.)
Manbot

AFv2 #9 p.22 panel 6
Clarke watches a close-up of Vindicator from UX #355 p.22 panel 5 (wb 4), although the video is likely from just afterwards (she is no longer smiling).
General Clarke

AFv2 #9 p.23
Clarke listens to distorted audio from UX #355 p.22 panel 5 (wb 5), and watches video from just after that point  Wolvie has dropped Vindicator's hand. On the monitors, Alpha Flight piles back into their jet and heads for home, as Clarke stews.
General Clarke

UX #355 p.23
Meanwhile, back the X-Mansion, Scott calls, worried about Jean. (Just as with p.1, this page doesn't HAVE to take place last, but placing it here doesn't interrupt the continuous events of AFv2 #9 pp.22-23  and placing p.1 first and p.23 last, both with "answering machine" sequences, makes an effective bookend to the story.)
Cyclops, Phoenix (both on phone)

--------

And here are the individual MCP entries derived from the above map. Let me know if anyone finds any errors. ;-)

CANNONBALL II / SAMUEL GUTHRIE

AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
(AFv2 #9) ~ UX #355
UX #355


EANY

AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355


FLEX / ADRIAN CORBO

AFv2 #9
UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9 - BTS ~ UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9 - BTS
UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355


GUARDIAN V / JAMES MACDONALD HUDSON (CLONE)

AFv2 #9
UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9 - BTS ~ UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9 - BTS
UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
(AFv2 #9) ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355


HUXLEY, DR. HORATIO

AFv2 #9
(not BTS)


MAGGOTT / JAPHETH

AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
(AFv2 #9) ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355


MANBOT / BERNIE LACHENAY

AFv2 #9
UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9 - BTS ~ UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9 - BTS
UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 
UX #355
AFv2 #9


MEANY

AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355


MURMUR II / ARLETTE TRUFFAUT

AFv2 #9
UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9 - BTS ~ UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9 - BTS
UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
(AFv2 #9) ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355 - BTS
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355


NIGHTCRAWLER / KURT WAGNER

UX #355
(not BTS)


PUCK / EUGENE MILTON JUDD

AFv2 #9
UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9 - BTS ~ UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9 - BTS
UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
(AFv2 #9) ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355 - BTS
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355


RADIUS / JARED CORBO

AFv2 #9
UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9 - BTS ~ UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9 - BTS
UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9 
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ (UX #355)
UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 - BTS ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355


ROGUE

UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ (UX #355)
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 - BTS ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355


SASQUATCH II

AFv2 #9
UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9 - BTS ~ UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9 - BTS
UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355


SAURON / DR. KARL LYKOS

AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
(AFv2 #9) ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9
(AFv2 #9) ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9


STONE, MARGARET

UX #355
(not BTS)


STORM / ORORO MUNROE

AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
(AFv2 #9) ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355


VINDICATOR II / HEATHER HUDSON

AFv2 #9
UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9 - BTS ~ UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9 - BTS
UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
(AFv2 #9) ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355 - BTS
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355


WOLVERINE / JAMES HOWLETT / "LOGAN"

AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
(AFv2 #9) ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355 
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
(AFv2 #9) ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355 
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
(AFv2 #9) ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ (UX #355)
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ (UX #355)
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
(AFv2 #9) ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9
(AFv2 #9) ~ UX #355
(AFv2 #9) ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9
(AFv2 #9) ~ UX #355
UX #355
(AFv2 #9) ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355
AFv2 #9
UX #355
AFv2 #9 ~ UX #355
UX #355 

			*	*	*

Re: AF2 9 / UX 355 revisited...
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on August 20, 2003 at 05:07:22:
In Reply to: AF2 9 / UX 355 revisited...
posted by Jeph! on August 20, 2003 at 01:38:41:

> Well, folks, I went over my panel-by-panel map of AFv2 #9 and UX #355 and made a few tweaks, streamlines, and changes.

Good work, which brings up another point: Shouldn't page (and panel) numbers be included in the chronology listings for that sort of thing?

It's a bit of a shame to do that sort of detailed work in order to figure out a correct chronology, only to promptly render said chronology useless for the discerning reader when it's included in the index, because there are no page numbers to go along with it.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch

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Re: AF2 9 / UX 355 revisited...
Posted by Jeph! on August 20, 2003 at 13:59:21:
In Reply to: Re: AF2 9 / UX 355 revisited...
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on August 20, 2003 at 05:07:22:

> Shouldn't page (and panel) numbers be included in the chronology listings for that sort of thing?

I think the only times we've ever had page/panel notations was in Spider-Man's early chronology ... which I guess means that we're not completely opposed to it.  I'm sure there's some logic behind the MCP's format in cases like this, but I don't know exactly what it is.  Possibly saving bandwidth?  Russ?

> It's a bit of a shame to do that sort of detailed work in order to figure out a correct chronology, only to promptly render said chronology useless for the discerning reader when it's included in the index, because there are no page numbers to go along with it.

I completely agree ... it would be GREAT to stick in the page and panel ranges (and I have a version saved in that format, as well), but -- especially in Wolverine's case -- the thing gets a little tedious to read.  All the average viewer of this site wants to know is that Wolvie appeared in both issues, and they overlap.  He doesn't want to scroll down two screen-lengths and read every little detail of how the two issues interlock.

I'm still pushing for my "one entry, linked to the map" idea -- but I have yet to hear feedback on it.  ::pouts::

Thanks for the kind words, Marc.

-Jeph!

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one entry, linked to the map
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 20, 2003 at 16:39:59:
In Reply to: Re: AF2 9 / UX 355 revisited...
posted by Jeph! on August 20, 2003 at 13:59:21:

> > I'm still pushing for my "one entry, linked to the map" idea -- but I have yet to hear feedback on it. 

For what its worth: I think its a great idea! I'm greedy. I'd like access to EVERY iota of imformation that's been assembled but I'll take whatever I can get. I agree it shouldn't be in the main chronology page though... it'd be too cluttered.

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Re: AF2 9 / UX 355 revisited...
Posted by Administrator on August 20, 2003 at 17:31:29:
In Reply to: Re: AF2 9 / UX 355 revisited...
posted by Jeph! on August 20, 2003 at 13:59:21:

> I think the only times we've ever had page/panel notations was in Spider-Man's early chronology ... which I guess means that we're not completely opposed to it.  I'm sure there's some logic behind the MCP's format in cases like this, but I don't know exactly what it is.  Possibly saving bandwidth?  Russ?

Not particularly. I simply felt that the intricacies and interweavings of Spider-Man's origin warranted the level of detail, unlike the vast majority of these kinds of cases. At the time I did it, I was open to the possibility breaking down other appearances by page/panel, but I had no plans to do it, if you can appreciate the distinction.

I think we've since added a couple of other listings that mention page and panel, but I don't remember them, offhand.

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Re: AF2 9 / UX 355 revisited...
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 20, 2003 at 19:47:58:
In Reply to: Re: AF2 9 / UX 355 revisited...
posted by Administrator on August 20, 2003 at 17:31:29:

> I think we've since added a couple of other listings that mention page and panel, but I don't remember them, offhand.

Daredevil's entries for DD:Y 1 and DD 1 most noticeably . 

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Re: AF2 9 / UX 355 revisited...
Posted by Jeph! on August 21, 2003 at 01:48:57:
In Reply to: Re: AF2 9 / UX 355 revisited...
posted by Administrator on August 20, 2003 at 17:31:29:

> I was open to the possibility breaking down other appearances by page/panel, but I had no plans to do it, if you can appreciate the distinction.

If by that you mean that you'd rather someone else do the work FOR you ... I'll get right on it.  ;-)

-Jeph!

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page and panel
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 22, 2003 at 10:24:20:
In Reply to: Re: AF2 9 / UX 355 revisited...
posted by Administrator on August 20, 2003 at 17:31:29:

> I think we've since added a couple of other listings that mention page and panel, but I don't remember them, offhand.

Maybe one that SHOULD have page/panel would be the blending of M/H&L '97 and A 16. But the idea of a link to a page showing them would be better. Without the breakdowns, it's a lot harder to determine where a new segment should be slotted. And it looks awkward as well.

For example...IRON MAN:

M/H&L '97
A 16
M/H&L '97
A 16
M/H&L '97
A 16
M/H&L '97
A 16
M/H&L '97
A 16
M/H&L '97-BTS
A 16-BTS
M/H&L '97
A 16 ~ M/H&L '97
A 16
M/H&L '97
A 16-BTS
A 16 ~ M/H&L '97
A 16
M/H&L '97
A 16 ~ M/H&L '97
A 16
JIM 116
A 280-FB
M/H&L '97
A 16
M/H&L '97
A 16

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Spider-Man: Blue
Posted by French Thom on August 20, 2003 at 05:34:59:

Is "Spider-Man: Blue" canon?

If it is, could anyone please tell me where it fits in spider-man's chronology?

Thank you!

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Twice the Venom
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2003 at 12:09:23:

Just looking over the Venom chrono after the update, and I was thinking that it might be more practical to give Eddie Brock and the black costume separate entries. Anyone looking for pre-Spidey appearances of the symbiont might be disappointed to find Brock only with the current system.

Related to this, I haven't been keeping up with tooth-face lately.  Thought I heard that Brock is no longer the host. If this is the case, might it be worth noting?

Perhaps Brock should have his own entry from his earliest chrono app through the present, with notes as to when he became a host as well as any periods of separation. The same might be done for the symbiont, noting when it possessed Spidey, Brock, and whoever else.

This would all apply equally, of course to Carnage and Cassidy.

- SK

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Re: Twice the Venom
Posted by JLH on August 21, 2003 at 00:00:06:
In Reply to: Re: Twice the Venom
posted by Administrator on August 20, 2003 at 17:38:55:

> It can become very unwieldly to track the chronologies of two different entities in one list. The problem came to a head with some of the early flashbacks of the Brock family in the most recent update.

Take the case of Hybrid. He's an alien symbiote, made of the merging of four of Venom's offspring symbiotes. He became attached to the Vault Guardian that Vance Astro befriends in New Warriors, and fought crime in a few back-ups of the Venom mini's. In MCP, Hybrid itself gets its own listing, while the Guard has his. There's no connection link for each other listed, nor for the other four symbiotes and Hybrid (mainly because they had their own human hosts before merging).

JLH

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Re: Twice the Venom
Posted by drew on August 23, 2003 at 01:48:24:
In Reply to: Re: Twice the Venom
posted by drew on August 23, 2003 at 00:57:56:

> > > It can become very unwieldly to track the chronologies of two different entities in one list. The problem came to a head with some of the early flashbacks of the Brock family in the most recent update.

> > Take the case of Hybrid. He's an alien symbiote, made of the merging of four of Venom's offspring symbiotes. He became attached to the Vault Guardian that Vance Astro befriends in New Warriors, and fought crime in a few back-ups of the Venom mini's. In MCP, Hybrid itself gets its own listing, while the Guard has his. There's no connection link for each other listed, nor for the other four symbiotes and Hybrid (mainly because they had their own human hosts before merging).

((sorry about the last post, I messed up.))

I am still iffy on the whole thing. I consider Venom to be Eddie Brock and the symbiote. They weren't known as Venom when SM was bonded with it. I think a seperate entries may be helpful to the project but I don't think that everything should just be thrown together and called "Venom". What about the super specials. Even if you were just talking about named symbiotes all this might be a bit difficult. I mean Aside from just the "Venom" symbiote, there are some complications with the others too. Niether of the story arc's are finished yet. I say at least wait until they are finished before making any decisions like that. 

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Re: Twice the Venom
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 21, 2003 at 17:00:16:
In Reply to: Re: Twice the Venom
posted by Administrator on August 20, 2003 at 17:38:55:

> Judging by Spectacular Spider-Man #1, we're certainly led to believe that. I haven't read issue #2 yet, but let's see how this arc plays out first.

The Venom ongoing series, thus far, features only the symbiote and has no involvement whatsoever by Eddie Brock.  At this point, I think it's virtually inevitable that a separation of the Venom/Eddie listings is going to have to take place, because they are being fairly clearly established as two separate characters.  The name "Venom", at this stage, denotes the symbiote.

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X-Men
Posted by Patrick on August 20, 2003 at 17:31:04:

I was wondering if anyone could tell a website that has a large databas of all of the X-Men listed alphabetically, and also lists their powers next to their names?

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Try www.uncannyxmen.net  *NT*
Posted by Jeph! on August 20, 2003 at 22:49:41:
In Reply to: X-Men
posted by Patrick  on August 20, 2003 at 17:31:04:

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post-GAP question
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 20, 2003 at 17:56:22:

While working on 'missing' Silver Sable entries, I realized they were the same as those I had posted a couple back with Sandman.  So I checked...

There are NO entries for the post-GAP issues of SSWP (#32-35, Jan-Apr 1995). Same for Darkhawk #47-50.

For series that ended in 1995, is it the plan to wait to do their 1995 issues until the GAP analysis for those titles catch up?  If so I'll nix researching and posting appearances from them. 

On another note: I notice that Spider-man:Power of Terror (Jan 1995 - #4 Apr 1995) has no entries.

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Re: post-GAP question
Posted by Russ on August 20, 2003 at 18:58:34:
In Reply to: post-GAP question
posted by Arthur Stein on August 20, 2003 at 17:56:22:

Sounds like I don't have those books, so they should be offered up as complete issue analyses, rather than pointing out individual character appearances. I hopped over to the FAQ and realize that the answer about my collection isn't precisely accurate, as it says I have stories *through* 1995, when it should really read *to* 1995, so I'll make that correction with the next update.

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Re: post-GAP question
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 20, 2003 at 19:41:01:
In Reply to: Re: post-GAP question
posted by Russ on August 20, 2003 at 18:58:34:

In addition to the aforementioned, some other 1995 issues missing....

Blaze 6-10
Morbius 28-32
Night Thrasher 21 
Nightwatch 10-12 
Nocturne(?) 1-4 
Prowler 3-4 
Punisher 98-104
Punisher War Journal 74-80
Punisher War Zone 35-41
Secret Defenders 23-25
Spider-man:The Arachnis Project #6

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Re: post-GAP question
Posted by JLH on August 20, 2003 at 23:50:55:
In Reply to: Re: post-GAP question
posted by Arthur Stein on August 20, 2003 at 19:41:01:

Depending on the stance on Western Marvels, "The Original Ghost Rider" series, which reprinted the 70s Johnny Blaze run for 20 issues, had brand new back-ups of the old horse-riding GR (called "Phantom Rider" in these stories), by Dan Slott & Dick Ayers, in most of its issues.

JLH

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Re: post-GAP question
Posted by Paul O'Brien on August 21, 2003 at 17:01:48:
In Reply to: Re: post-GAP question
posted by Arthur Stein on August 20, 2003 at 19:41:01:

> Nocturne(?) 1-4 

I've heard it said that Nocturne is out of continuity.  Apparently it creates serious continuity clashes with the Night Raven series it's based on.

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Night Raven and Nocturne
Posted by Dimadick on August 22, 2003 at 02:04:49:
In Reply to: Re: post-GAP question
posted by Paul O'Brien on August 21, 2003 at 17:01:48:

> > Nocturne(?) 1-4 
> I've heard it said that Nocturne is out of continuity.  Apparently it creates serious continuity clashes with the Night Raven series it's based on.

You can say that. Nocturne features both Night Raven and his nemesis and arguably the most important woman of his life Yi Yang. But in his series Night Raven was said to be a Native American, a Mohawk born in Alberta, Canada c. 1900. He was a World War I veteran (Britain entered on August 4, 1914 and the truce was signed on November 11, 1918)  and then an active vigilante in the USA during the Prohibition era (January 29, 1919 - December 5, 1933). He first met Yi Yiang in 1929 and branded her with his sign. Yi Yiang claimed to be a 6000 years old immortal and Night Raven is said to also be an immortal. Both have incredible recuperative powers and have come back from apparent deaths in a number of occasions. They are locked in combat ever since they met. Night Raven was mentioned in the files of the Mastermind Sentient computer, created by the Braddock family. When he and Yi Yiang were last seen they were involved in an adventure with Black Widow II/Natasha Romanoff and once again seemingly killed each other in an explosion. A point was made that their bodies were not found.

On the other hand Nocturne's Night Raven is said to be a British Caucasian vigilante who was mainly active in London from the 1920s till November, 1951 when he was killed. He was brought back by Yi Yiang as a zombified assasin called Hatemare. He escaped her control in Nocturne #4 confronted her and they both seemingly died in an explosion. The series mentioned no other established Marvel character and a policeman made the following comment:"Like these super-heroes, do you, sir? Can't stand them, me. Thank Jiminy there aren't any real ones, eh?". The reference is to super-heroes as figures out of Radio shows, films and novels. To incorporate both series in continiuty would pose certain problems apparently.

For more on Night Raven see:http://marvunapp.com/Appendix/nhtraven.htm

For more on Yi Yang see:http://marvunapp.com/Appendix/yiyang.htm

For more on Mastermind see:http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/mastermi.htm

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Aliens escape despite Maximum Security
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2003 at 19:58:36:

From Maximum Security - Dangerous Planet #1, here are a few beings who slipped through the cracks.  Some are mentioned without their species tag.  Others are missing.  None of the flashbacks (which take place earlier in the same story) are currently indexed.

Alberik [Axi-Tun]
Avios [Shi'ar]
Basaltar [Stonian]
Bartos [Krylorian]
Dibdeb [Sneeper]
Kreddik [Skrull]
Manat [Badoon]
Mxyptlk
Nuro [Skrull]
P'kar [Shi'ar]
Pa, Nelet [Rigellian]
R'tee [Skrull]
Sintariis, Kronaster [Kree/Ruul]
Spunjee [Skrull]
Strongheart, Fayrelyte [Kymellian]
Wibbow [Wobbow]
Zcann [Skrull]

Flashback 1
Dakr't [Skrull]
Fiz [Skrull]
Nuro [Skrull]
Professor X
R'tee [Skrull]
Spunjee [Skrull]
Trl'k [Skrull]
Zcann [Skrull]

- SK

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Combining Zoogs
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2003 at 20:22:53:

These two entries should be combined:
-------------------
GRASSWIND, Z'OOFREY
CM4 1
CM4 4-FB
CM4 5
CM4 6-FB

ZOOG [KYMELLIAN]
CM5 14-FB
-------------------

To read like so:

ZOOG/Z'OOFREY GRASSWIND [KYMELLIAN]
CM4 1
CM4 4-FB
CM4 5
CM4 6-FB
CM5 14-FB

Additionally, CM5 14 indicates that Zoog wanted her mother back from Death's realm.  In the flashback in that issue, two Kymellians are shown, a male and a female, perhaps implying that one is her father.  I'm pretty sure this was stated to be so by Fabian Nicieza some time ago on rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe, but I can't seem to track it down.

Anyway, this may warrant two more listings:

GRASSWIND, MR. [KYMELLIAN]
CM5 14-FB

GRASSWIND, MRS. [KYMELLIAN]
CM5 14-FB

- SK

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Mystery man Maxam
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2003 at 20:54:47:

I noticed that there is no listing for Maxam.  Here's a start using books already in the MCP (most of the Infinty Crusade x-overs are Gapped):

MAXAM [Human]
IC 1
IC 2
IC 3
IC 4
IC 5
IC 6

- SK

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Re: Mystery man Maxam
Posted by Administrator on August 20, 2003 at 21:52:46:
In Reply to: Mystery man Maxam
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2003 at 20:54:47:

> I noticed that there is no listing for Maxam.  Here's a start using books already in the MCP (most of the Infinty Crusade x-overs are Gapped):

While we've analyzed Infinity Crusade, we're only adding appearances for those characters from *other* books as those other titles are analyzed. For instance, you won't find Daredevil's appearances in Infinity Crusade under DD's listing, because we haven't yet analyzed the Daredevil books from 1994 to know where those IC appearances occur.

We'll add the Maxam appearances (and he also appears in WOSM 104 and 105 during Infinity Crusade) when we get around to analyzing Warlock and the Infinity Watch.

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Re: Mystery man Maxam
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2003 at 22:15:24:
In Reply to: Re: Mystery man Maxam
posted by Administrator on August 20, 2003 at 21:52:46:

> While we've analyzed Infinity Crusade, we're only adding appearances for those characters from *other* books as those other titles are analyzed.

Okay, but that sound like double work.  I thought it wasn't the MCP's policy to partially index a book.

- SK

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Selective indexing
Posted by StAkAR Karnak on August 21, 2003 at 11:37:23:
In Reply to: Re: Mystery man Maxam
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2003 at 22:15:24:

An addendum; I suppose this would explain seeing appearances from AVENGERS: THE TERMINATRIX OBJECTIVE and from THOR CORPS list here, but not there, as it were.

What about, say, the Guardians of the Galaxy?  Would you be opposed to receiving appearance listings for other books *already listed in the Project* until you decide to work on M/PRS and/or GOTG?  A few of these folks already have embryonic listings that can be added to with AVENGERS, DEFENDERS, and the like.

- SK

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GOTG
Posted by Administrator on August 21, 2003 at 13:17:52:
In Reply to: Selective indexing
posted by StAkAR Karnak on August 21, 2003 at 11:37:23:

As long as the books are not in the first gap, that would be a tremendous help.

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Re: Mystery man Maxam
Posted by JLH on August 21, 2003 at 00:06:21:
In Reply to: Re: Mystery man Maxam
posted by Administrator on August 20, 2003 at 21:52:46:

> While we've analyzed Infinity Crusade, we're only adding appearances for those characters from *other* books as those other titles are analyzed. For instance, you won't find Daredevil's appearances in Infinity Crusade under DD's listing, because we haven't yet analyzed the Daredevil books from 1994 to know where those IC appearances occur.

> We'll add the Maxam appearances (and he also appears in WOSM 104 and 105 during Infinity Crusade) when we get around to analyzing Warlock and the Infinity Watch.

I guess this explains why Angel Face (who was in 2 of the GG issues I submitted) wasn't added, since she plays a bigger role in Spider-Girl. This means M2 is still going to be added to MCP eventually, ala Killraven?

JLH

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Gap Number Zero
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2003 at 21:08:26:

I wish I could say where or when I saw this, but Russ posted this somewhen and I copied and pasted it into a Notepad file: "Marvel's Silver Age western and war stories are not included in my collection."

Just wondering if any progress has been made on this front or whether anyone has undertaken an effort to figure out what falls in this period.

Also, I'd like to request a clarification; pre-FF v1 #1, has anything been itemized and put on a list to tackle?  There are sporadic listings for WWII-era books, but what falls in the 1950s that is still an unknown?

Maybe all of this stuff could be added to the Closing the Gap pages once it is complied?

- SK, in quite a talkie mood this evening...

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Re: Gap Number Zero
Posted by Administrator on August 20, 2003 at 21:56:42:
In Reply to: Gap Number Zero
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2003 at 21:08:26:

> Just wondering if any progress has been made on this front or whether anyone has undertaken an effort to figure out what falls in this period.

Hmmm...seems like someone at some point offered to do a few of the Sgt. Fury books, but nothing  yet. We did add the Captain Leatherneck stories a while back, thanks to contributions by...I want to say Sean Curtin, but never trust my memory for these things...

> Also, I'd like to request a clarification; pre-FF v1 #1, has anything been itemized and put on a list to tackle?  There are sporadic listings for WWII-era books, but what falls in the 1950s that is still an unknown?

> Maybe all of this stuff could be added to the Closing the Gap pages once it is complied?

I like the idea.

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Re: Gap Number Zero
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 20, 2003 at 22:16:44:
In Reply to: Re: Gap Number Zero
posted by Administrator on August 20, 2003 at 21:56:42:

> > Maybe all of this stuff could be added to the Closing the Gap pages once it is complied?

> I like the idea.

That's what I get paid for.  :->

- SK, still waiting for a check...

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Re: Gap Number Zero
Posted by SKleefeld on August 21, 2003 at 08:39:28:
In Reply to: Re: Gap Number Zero
posted by Administrator on August 20, 2003 at 21:56:42:

> Hmmm...seems like someone at some point offered to do a few of the Sgt. Fury books, but nothing  yet. We did add the Captain Leatherneck stories a while back, thanks to contributions by...I want to say Sean Curtin, but never trust my memory for these things...

Bit of a typo there, Russ. You mis-spelled "Kleefeld" with a "C." And the "u" is wrong. And the "r" should be two "e"s. Oh, and it's just "feld" not "field" or "tin" or anything like that.

Not a big deal though. I get my name mis-spelled all the time. :)

-- Sean

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Re: Gap Number Zero
Posted by Sean Curtin on August 24, 2003 at 19:08:29:
In Reply to: Re: Gap Number Zero
posted by SKleefeld on August 21, 2003 at 08:39:28:


You think you're confused--when I saw that first post, I thought I'd started posting chronologies in my sleep!

-- 
Sean Kl... uh, Curtin

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SHAMAN...SHARKSKIN...SHAZANA
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 21, 2003 at 15:15:17:

new entries marked **

SHAMAN/MICHAEL TWOYOUNGMAN
AF 28
**H2 313
AF 29
..  ..  ..  ..  ..
AF 41
**AF 42
AF 44

SHARKSKIN
**NM@ 5
WCA@ 5/3

SHAZANA
ST 133/2
**DEF 41
DRSTR3 47-FB

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#112

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"And suddenly - the Guardians of the Galaxy!"
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 21, 2003 at 20:10:04:

The following post adds a few overlooked characters from AMAZING ADVENTURES v2 #18-30. Additionally, it lists species, integrates MARVEL SUPER-HEROES #18, DEFENDERS v1 #26-29, MARVEL TEAM-UP #45 & 46, MARVEL GRAPHIC NOVEL #7, KILLRAVEN #1, and characters already covered in the Project that are native to Killraven's timeline (notably the Dargo and Guardians of the Galaxy).

(M/SH 18, M/PRS 3-12, GOTG, and GALACTIC GUARDIANS are not yet a part of the project, but will *extensively* flesh out the soon-to-be-renamed(?) Killraven Mythos page when they are eventually included.)

For characters already covered, a number of additional appearances are given using books the Project has already catalogued. KILLRAVEN v1 #1 is also included, being so recent a book, and its chronology is archived here (I think I submitted this when it came out, but here we have it again).

Regarding Martian characters, I have placed ["Martian"] in quotation marks because it was established in AVF that the Martians are not native to Mars and used it as a staging ground for their invasion of Earth. Since we have no other designation for them, "Martian" should do. As an aside, I hear that a different flavor of Martians appeared in the 2099 stories, and it may be that these are native to the Red Planet.

DEF 26 (Aug 1975) placement: Vance's history of 1975-3014 includes Killraven. The relevant panel shows the Freemen traveling. The inclusion of Carmilla and Grok places it after AA2 21 (Nov 1973), but since Grok is healthy here, it has to be before AA2 27 (Nov 1974). I place it at a convenient break, between AA2 21 and AA2 22, on the trek from Yankee Stadium to Washington D. C.

On with the show; new entries marked w/ "**":


ADAM 3031 (All the males in Death-Birth were named Adam. The one focused on in the storyline, and his wife, were each #3031.)
**AA2 23-BTS (later revealed he saw the events in this issue on a live broadcast)
AA2 27

ALICE [Human]
**KR 1-FB

ARTEMUS
**AA2 37-FB

ASH, VOLCANNA (see: VOLCANNA ASH; Ash was not her surname, but part of her alias)

ASTRO, MAJOR VANCE
from: VANCE ASTROVIK (place a link next to M/TIO 69 under JUSTICE in main chronology and indicate a divergence)
**DEF 26-FB-BTS
**M/TIO 69-FB
**M/TIO 5
**GSDEF 5
**DEF 26
**DEF 27
**DEF 28
**DEF 29
**T @ 6
**MSM/ 23
**MTU 86
**A 167
**A 173
**A 177-BTS
**MSM/ 23
**M/TIO 61-BTS
**M/TIO 69 ~ **AVF 6-FB (the listing of M/TIO here is for Vance's older self, naturally. AVENGERS FOREVER reveals Immortus' hand in these events.)
**S-H2 6
FF@ 24/3
see: MAJOR VICTORY

ATALON "THE FEAR MASTER" (Note alias) [Human]
**AA2 23-BTS (saw these events via live broadcast)
AA2 27

BALD EAGLE (see: OLD SKULL)

BRAHL "THE INTANGIBLE" [Achernonian]
**T@ 6

CARVER, DR. ANN [Human]
**AA2 18-FB

CHARLIE-27, CAPTAIN (I) [Jovian] (there should be a hyphen in his name.)
*M/TIO 5
*GSDEF 5
*DEF 26
*DEF 27
*DEF 28
*DEF 29 
*T@ 6
*A 167
*A 170
*A 173
*A 175
*A 177
*KS
*A 181
*MSM/ 23-BTS
*M/TU 86
*M/TIO 61-BTS
*M/TIO 69-FB
*M/TIO 69-FB
*S-H2 6
FF@ 24/3
T@ 16/2
SS@ 4/2
*IW 5
NW 68

CLARENCE
**AA2 29

CLIFF
**AA2 21

DARGO (see: THOR (IV))

DEATHRAVEN / JOSHUA RAVEN [Human]
**MGN 7-FB or(?) AA2 18-FB - these two are incompatible; he is a baby in one and an older brother in the other)
AA2 36-BTS

DEMONSTAFF/HALLAN GORKO (name from THOR CORPS)
T 440

DROOM [Badoon]
**DEF 27
**DEF 29

DUMOG [Fomalhauti]
**GSDEF 3
**T@ 6

EBOR, INQUISITOR [Badoon]
**M/TIO 5

ELRIC
**AA2 21

EMMANUEL (he is never called the 24-hour man in the story; only the title.)
**AA2 35

EVE 3031 [Human] (see note for ADAM 3031)
**AA2 23-BTS (saw these events via live broadcast)
AA2 27

EVE #? / MELONIE [Human] (she is no longer called Melonie and should be listed right after her sister, 3031.)
AA2 28-FB

FEAR MASTER (see: ATALON)

FROST, KEEPER ANDRE (I) [Human]
**AA2 34-FB

**FROST, ANDRE (II) (see: GROK)

FROST, CARMILLA
AA2 21
**DEF 26-FB
AA2 22
--
MGN 7
**KR 1

GOLD, NICHOLETTE "NIKKI" [Mercurian]
**T@ 6
**A 167
**A 170
**A 173
**A 175-BTS
**A 177
**KS
**A 181
**MSM/ 23-BTS
**M/TU 86
**M/TIO 61-BTS
**M/TIO 69-FB
**M/TIO 69
**S-H2 6
FF@ 24/3
T@ 16
SS@ 4/2
**IW 5
NW 68

GOOZOT, EMPEROR
**DEF 27
**DEF 28
**DEF 29

GOR
**AA2 24
**AA2 25

GORKO, HALLAN (see: DEMONSTAFF)

GORT
**AA2 20
**AA2 25

GROK / ANDRE FROST (II)
AA2 21
**DEF 26-FB
AA2 22

GROTT "THE MAN-SLAYER" [Grund]
**GSDEF 3
**T@ 6-FB
**T@ 6

HAWK [Human]
AA2 21
**DEF 26-FB-BTS
AA2 22

HERKIMER
**AA2 32

HIGH OVERLORD ["Martian"]

HOBIE
**AA2 25

HUEY [Human]
**AA2 37
**AA2 39

KELLY
**AA2 31

KENDALL [Human]
**AA2 23
**AA2 24

KILLRAVEN / JONATHAN RAVEN [Human]
**KR 1-FB (pre-capture)
**MGN 7-FB (with Joshua)
**AA2 18-FB (capture)
**KR 1-FB (mother's death)
**KR 1-FB (in chains)
**AA2 18-FB (presented for training, swordplay)
**KR 1-FB (torture)
**AA2 18-FB (martial arts)
**KR 1-FB (fighting)
**KR 1-FB (killing a Martian)
AA2 37-FB
**AA2 18-FB (escape)
**KR 1-FB (escape)
**M/TU 45-FB (escape)
**AA2 18-FB (escape)
AA2 18 (1st appearance)
--
AA2 21
**DEF 26-FB
AA2 22
--
M/TU 45
M/TU 46-BTS (KR & Deathlok's thoughts after Spidey departs are shown)
AA2 35
--
MGN 7
**KR 1-FB
**KR 1

KORVAC, MICHAEL (I) /THE ENEMY/THE MACHINE MAN [Human]

KORVAC (II) [Human cyborg] (Only appeared in a GOTG annual.)

KORVAC, MICHAEL (III)/CLOCKWORK LORD/THE MACHINE GOD [Human cyborg]
CA3 17
CA3 18
CA3 19

KOZ
**DEF 27

KTOR, SALLA (move from "Salla")
**T 384
T@ 16

KWAAL [Human]
**DEF 26-FB

LOKI [Asgardian] (divergence link to here from between T 301 & T 307)
**T 384

LOUIE [Human]
**AA2 37
**AA2 39

MAJOR VICTORY/MAJOR VANCE ASTRO
from: ASTRO, MAJOR VANCE
**IW 5
**NW 36-FB (holographic recording)
NW 68

MAN-SLAYER (see: GROTT)

MANFRED
**AA2 23

MARTINEX (see: T'NAGA, DR. MARTINEX)

MASTER FOUR ["Martian"]

MASTER TWELVE ["Martian"]

MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY 2016-2017
**AA2 18-FB

MEK-12 [robot]
**AA2 18-FB

MELONIE/EVE #? (see: EVE #?/MELONIE)

MENDELL
**AA2 28

MINT JULEP / PROJECT 6-LXM-QWS [Human/Euglena hybrid]

MISTER TEJU [Reptoid]
**GSDEF 3
**T@ 6

MON-TEE
**DEF 28
**DEF 29

"NIKKI" (see: GOLD, NICHOLETTE "NIKKI")

OGG, COMMANDER [Badoon]
**M/TIO 5

OGORD, ALETA [Arcturan]
**DEF 27-BTS
**DEF 28-BTS
**DEF 29 (1st appearance)
**T@ 6-BTS
**A 167-BTS
**A 168
**A 170-BTS
**A 173-BTS
**A 175-BTS
**A 176-BTS
**A 177-BTS
**KS-BTS
**A 181-BTS
**M/TU 86-BTS
**M/TIO 61-BTS
**M/TIO 62
**M/TIO 63
**M/TIO 69-BTS
**S-H2 6-BTS
**FF@ 24/3
**T@ 16/2-BTS
**SS@ 4/2-BTS (cover only; wears a costume never seen elsewhere)

OGORD, STAKAR VAUGHN (see: STARHAWK (I))

OLD SKULL/BALD EAGLE [Human]
AA2 21
**DEF 26-FB
AA2 22
--
MGN 7
**KR 1-FB
**KR 1

"ONE WHO KNOWS" (I) (see: STARHAWK (I))

"ONE WHO KNOWS" (II) (see: STARHAWK (II))

PROJECT 6-LXM-QWS (see: MINT JULEP)

PSTUN-RAGE "THE VIGILANT" [Human]
AA2 26
**AA2 28-BTS

QARL [Human]
**M/TIO 5

RACQUE
**AA2 26

RAKER, KEEPER DR. [Human]
**AA2 18-FB
**AA2 18

RANGOLAR
**AA2 26

RATTACK [Human]
**AA2 23-FB (photo from before mutation)
AA2 23

RAVEN, MAUREEN [Human]
**KR 1-FB (pre-capture)
**AA2 18-FB
**KR 1-FB (death)

SAUNDERS, EXTERMINATOR [Human]
**AA2 18-FB
**AA2 23-BTS
**MGN 7

SCOTT, M'SHULLA/BLOODARROW [Human]
AA2 21
**DEF 26-FB
AA2 22
--
MGN 7
**KR 1-FB
**KR 1

SCOTT FETUS (M'SHULLA & CARMILLA's unborn child)
**MGN 7-BTS
**KR 1-BTS

SCRAPPER [Human]
**AA2 18-FB
**AA2 18

"SERPENT STALLION" (KILLRAVEN'S) (If Aragorn can be included, why not?) [mutant Terran horse]
**AA2 26
**AA2 27
**AA2 28
**AA2 29
**AA2 32
**AA2 34
**AA2 36
**AA2 38
**AA2 39

SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD/KEEPER [Zenn-Lavian]
**SS@ 4/2

SLASHER [Human cyborg]

STARHAWK/STAKAR VAUGHN OGORD/"ONE WHO KNOWS" (I) [Human/synthetic human hybrid]
**DEF 27 (1st appearance)
**DEF 28
**DEF 29
**T@ 6
**A 167
**A 168
**A 170
**A 173
**A 175
**A 176
**A 177
**KS
**A 181
**M/TU 86
**M/TIO 61
**M/TIO 62
**M/TIO 63
**M/TIO 69
**S-H2 6
FF@ 24/3

T'NAGA, DR. MARTINEX [Pluvian] (GOTG reveals surname & two doctorates)
**DEF 26-FB
**M/TIO 5
**DEF 26
**DEF 27
**DEF 28
**DEF 29
**T@ 6
**A 167
**A 175
**A 177
**KS
**A 181
**M/TU 86
**M/TIO 61-BTS
**M/TIO 69-FB
**M/TIO 69
**S-H2 6
FF@ 24/3

TARIN, PRESIDENT [Human] (becomes Pres in GOTG)
**M/TIO 4
**M/TIO 5

THOR IV/DARGO KTOR
**T 384 (1st appearance)
T@ 16-FB

THROGMOID, WALTER J. [AI]
**AA2 32

TOBY
**AA2 23

TOLARIA, QUEEN [Badoon]
**DEF 28

TORK [Procyonite]
**GSDEF 3
**T@ 6

UDONTA, YONDU [Centaurian]
**DEF 26-FB
**M/TIO 5
**GSDEF 5
**DEF 26
**DEF 27
**DEF 28
**DEF 29
**T@ 6
**A 167
**A 177
**KS
**A 181
**M/TIO 69-FB
**M/TIO 69
FF@ 24/3

VENESIA
**DEF 28

WHITMAN, KEEPER [Human]
**MGN 7-FB

WITNEY
**AA2 22

YONDU (see: UDONTA, YONDU)

ZAKKOR [Human]
**DEF 29

ZINNIA
**DEF 27
**DEF 29

- SK
Comments more than welcome! 

			*	*	*

Re: "And suddenly - the Guardians of the Galaxy!"
Posted by Don Campbell on August 22, 2003 at 00:12:55:
In Reply to: "And suddenly - the Guardians of the Galaxy!""
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 21, 2003 at 20:10:04:

Two quick comments.

> As an aside, I hear that a different flavor of Martians appeared in the 2099 stories, and it may be that these are native to the Red Planet.

Regarding the Martian characters who appeared in 2099: WORLD OF TOMORROW, the "Takers" (as they were called by the humans from the Ares Colony) were the last few survivors of a sentient race that was native to Mars.  According to them, the Mars of over ten thousand years ago (ie. before 7,900 BCE) was a very habitable planet until the Phalanx tried to conquer it.  The Martians were able to repel the invaders but the Phalanx proved to be REALLY SORE LOSERS and decided that, if they couldn't have Mars, then nobody could...so they rendered the surface of Mars uninhabitable (some Martians survived in deep underground shelters).  Some of these survivors decided to travel to Earth but their ship was sabotaged by other Martians (who felt that fleeing from their home was dishonourable) and they crashed in the Savage Land where their ship remained undisturbed until 2099.  Anyway, those Martians left on Mars placed themselves in suspended animation but by 2099 there were only about six left, all of whom  chose to die in battle with the Phalanx who had returned to the Sol system to conquer Earth.

> DEF 26 (Aug 1975) placement: Vance's history of 1975-3014 includes Killraven.  The relevant panel shows the Freemen traveling.

While I accept that the GotG timeline included a human known as Killraven who fought against the Martian invaders, I've never believed that that Killraven was the one from the AMAZING ADVENTURES series.  For a long time I couldn't explain (even to myself) exactly WHY I was so certain of this but I finally remembered that the source of my certainty was the text page that appeared in MARVEL PRESENTS #4.  Instead of a lettercol, M/PRS 4 presented "An Outline Course in World History 1975-3015 A.D." in which Steve Gerber provided a more detailed version of the future-history that he wrote for DEF 26.  The thing that really struck me was the fact that, although the Martian invasion of 2001 A.D. is covered (and Killraven is mentioned), at no time does he refer to it as being the SECOND such invasion.  Why did I find this to be important?  Well, it's my understanding that the "War of the World" storyline in AA was not an updated version of the classic Wells novel but a SEQUEL to it.  In other words, the story was set on an Earth where the Martian conquest of 2001 had been preceded by a failed invasion attempt in 1901.  And, as far as I know, the "mainstream" Earth has never been invaded by Martians.  Therefore, since the GotG timeline is said to have diverged from the "mainstream" timeline sometime in the late 20th century, the Killraven from that timeline could not be the same person as the Killraven in the AA stories.  Sure, they're dimensional counterparts of each other and they probably led very similar lives but that doesn't mean that we can assume that the events depicted in AA happened to the GotG Killraven.  Or am I just being too picky about this?

Also, I believe that my opinion is supported by the third volume (Update '89) of the Marvel Handbook.  Issue #4 has a profile on Killraven.  His identity is listed as "Publicly known on his alternate Earth; the general populace of "mainstream" Earth is unaware of Killraven's existence."  More significant is the first paragraph of his history: "Killraven is the native of an alternate Earth in which sentient octopus-like aliens known as Martians invaded the United Kingdom in 1901. (It has not yet been revealed whether these aliens actually originated on Mars, or whether their race is native to another planet and merely uses Mars as a base.) Using their tripod-like war machines, the Martians threatened to conquer the planet, but instead died due to their lack of immunity to diseases carried by Earth's microorganism."

As I see it, there are about four different versions of Killraven in the Marvel Universe, all counterparts of each other but existing in their own separate timelines.  Listed in order of appearance, they are:

1. Killraven-AA (AA2 #18-39 and MGN #7 and Killraven one-shot) comes from an alternate Earth which diverged from the "mainstream" Earth sometime during (or, probably, before) the year 1901 AD.

2. Killraven-GG (DEF #26) comes from an alternate timeline which supposedly diverged from the "mainstream" Earth as a result of events in M/TIO #69.  While we can assume that this Killraven had many adventures similar to those depicted in AA2, those stories are not specifically tied to this Killraven and, in my opinion only, it would be a mistake to state that they are.

3. Killraven-AF (AVF #4-6) comes from an alternate timeline that may (or MAY NOT) have diverged from the "mainstream" Earth sometime between A3 #11 and #12 (after Giant-Man, the Wasp and Rick Jones appeared at Avengers Mansion). After all, the Black Panther of that future Earth knew of the Destiny War so any divergence must have occurred after people who knew of it had returned to their proper time, right?

4. Killraven-AD (Killraven [vol. 2?] #1-6) is the creation of Alan Davis who chose to tell his story without being bound by continuity.  Thus his Killraven comes from a totally different Earth, one which didn't seem to have ever had any super-powered humans.

> Comments more than welcome!

Are you still sure about that?

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: "And suddenly - the Guardians of the Galaxy!"
Posted by Dan Spears on August 22, 2003 at 01:58:14:
In Reply to: Re: "And suddenly - the Guardians of the Galaxy!"
posted by Don Campbell on August 22, 2003 at 00:12:55:

> Two quick comments.

> > As an aside, I hear that a different flavor of Martians appeared in the 2099 stories, and it may be that these are native to the Red Planet.

> Regarding the Martian characters who appeared in 2099: WORLD OF TOMORROW, the "Takers" (as they were called by the humans from the Ares Colony) were the last few survivors of a sentient race that was native to Mars.  According to them, the Mars of over ten thousand years ago (ie. before 7,900 BCE) was a very habitable planet until the Phalanx tried to conquer it.  The Martians were able to repel the invaders but the Phalanx proved to be REALLY SORE LOSERS and decided that, if they couldn't have Mars, then nobody could...so they rendered the surface of Mars uninhabitable (some Martians survived in deep underground shelters).  Some of these survivors decided to travel to Earth but their ship was sabotaged by other Martians (who felt that fleeing from their home was dishonourable) and they crashed in the Savage Land where their ship remained undisturbed until 2099.  Anyway, those Martians left on Mars placed themselves in suspended animation but by 2099 there were only about six left, all of whom  chose to die in battle with the Phalanx who had returned to the Sol system to conquer Earth.

> > DEF 26 (Aug 1975) placement: Vance's history of 1975-3014 includes Killraven.  The relevant panel shows the Freemen traveling.

> While I accept that the GotG timeline included a human known as Killraven who fought against the Martian invaders, I've never believed that that Killraven was the one from the AMAZING ADVENTURES series.  For a long time I couldn't explain (even to myself) exactly WHY I was so certain of this but I finally remembered that the source of my certainty was the text page that appeared in MARVEL PRESENTS #4.  Instead of a lettercol, M/PRS 4 presented "An Outline Course in World History 1975-3015 A.D." in which Steve Gerber provided a more detailed version of the future-history that he wrote for DEF 26.  The thing that really struck me was the fact that, although the Martian invasion of 2001 A.D. is covered (and Killraven is mentioned), at no time does he refer to it as being the SECOND such invasion.  Why did I find this to be important?  Well, it's my understanding that the "War of the World" storyline in AA was not an updated version of the classic Wells novel but a SEQUEL to it.  In other words, the story was set on an Earth where the Martian conquest of 2001 had been preceded by a failed invasion attempt in 1901.  And, as far as I know, the "mainstream" Earth has never been invaded by Martians.  Therefore, since the GotG timeline is said to have diverged from the "mainstream" timeline sometime in the late 20th century, the Killraven from that timeline could not be the same person as the Killraven in the AA stories.  Sure, they're dimensional counterparts of each other and they probably led very similar lives but that doesn't mean that we can assume that the events depicted in AA happened to the GotG Killraven.  Or am I just being too picky about this?

Yep, I'm of the opinion that you're being a little too picky ;-).  There's been so many world-shattering events that are particular to the Marvel Universe, that I have just always assumed that the UK invasion of the Martians in 1901 is either just considered a minor footnote in Marvel history (as unlikely as that would be in OUR world), or maybe it was hushed up by the UK government so that they could try to develope a monopoly on Martian technology that was left over from the brief war.

> Also, I believe that my opinion is supported by the third volume (Update '89) of the Marvel Handbook.  Issue #4 has a profile on Killraven.  His identity is listed as "Publicly known on his alternate Earth; the general populace of "mainstream" Earth is unaware of Killraven's existence."  More significant is the first paragraph of his history: "Killraven is the native of an alternate Earth in which sentient octopus-like aliens known as Martians invaded the United Kingdom in 1901. (It has not yet been revealed whether these aliens actually originated on Mars, or whether their race is native to another planet and merely uses Mars as a base.) Using their tripod-like war machines, the Martians threatened to conquer the planet, but instead died due to their lack of immunity to diseases carried by Earth's microorganism."

If I'm not mistaken, the Marvel Handbook, unlike the equivalent DC type handbook, only listed characters that WERE a part of the overall Marvel Universe; his listing as being part of an "alternate" earth is only because of his existence in an alternate future timeline, whereas his history was still considered the same as mainstream Marvel Universe history.

At least, that's how I've always understood it.

Peace,
Dan

			*	*	*

Re: "And suddenly - the Guardians of the Galaxy!"
Posted by Don Campbell on August 22, 2003 at 10:11:10:
In Reply to: Re: "And suddenly - the Guardians of the Galaxy!"
posted by Dan Spears on August 22, 2003 at 01:58:14:

Good, a "spirited discussion" is about to take place :-).

> > Therefore, since the GotG timeline is said to have diverged from the "mainstream" timeline sometime in the late 20th century, the Killraven from that timeline could not be the same person as the Killraven in the AA stories.  Sure, they're dimensional counterparts of each other and they probably led very similar lives but that doesn't mean that we can assume that the events depicted in AA happened to the GotG Killraven.  Or am I just being too picky about this?

> Yep, I'm of the opinion that you're being a little too picky ;-).  There's been so many world-shattering events that are particular to the Marvel Universe, that I have just always assumed that the UK invasion of the Martians in 1901 is either just considered a minor footnote in Marvel history (as unlikely as that would be in OUR world), or maybe it was hushed up by the UK government so that they could try to develope a monopoly on Martian technology that was left over from the brief war.

While it's true that the KILLRAVEN one-shot did contain some mention that the world's governments explained away the 1901 Martian invasion as some sort of hoax, I don't recall any story that ever definatively stated that such an invasion and cover-up took place on the "mainstream" Marvel Earth.  Now, if that Gerber text page HAD referred to the SECOND Martian invasion of 2001, then I would have accepted the idea that the Amazing Adventures stories took place in a possible future of the "mainstream" Earth --- just like the future-history related by Major Astro did.

However, in the absence of such a statement, I believe the following:

1) Killraven's AMAZING ADVENTURES took place on an Earth that was first invaded by Martians in the year 1901;

2) the timeline of the Guardians of the Galaxy diverged from the "mainstream" Earth sometime after DEFENDERS #26 and someone named Killraven did fight against the Martians in the early 21st century;

and 3) the "mainstream" Earth has NOT been invaded by Martians --- at least, not yet.

As a result of these beliefs, I am of the opinion that the AMAZING ADVENTURES stories did NOT NECCESSARILY occur as part of the GotG timeline and so it would be wrong to state that they DEFINITELY were a part of that timeline.

> If I'm not mistaken, the Marvel Handbook, unlike the equivalent DC type handbook, only listed characters that WERE a part of the overall Marvel Universe; his listing as being part of an "alternate" earth is only because of his existence in an alternate future timeline, whereas his history was still considered the same as mainstream Marvel Universe history.

> At least, that's how I've always understood it.

To me, the key statement is that "Killraven is a native of an alternate Earth in which sentient octopus-like aliens known as Martians invaded the United Kingdom in 1901."  With this sentence, the Marvel Handbook is clearly identifying the 1901 Martian invasion as the DIVERGENCE which caused Killraven's timeline to become an "alternate" to the "mainstream" timeline.  I believe that there is a HUGE difference between a "future of an alternate timeline" (which is where those AA2 stories took place) and an "alternate future of the mainstream timeline" (which is what Major Astro's future-history in DEF 26 was).  The AA2 stories take place in the future of a timeline which has ALREADY diverged from the mainstream timeline and so CANNOT happen in the mainstream timeline's future (at least, not exactly) while, at the time when DEF 26 was published, Astro's "history" COULD STILL have happened in the mainstream timeline's future...unless a divergence like that which ocurred in M/TIO #69 takes place, after which Major Astro's future-history became the future of a divergent timeline and thus COULD NO LONGER take place in the mainstream timeline's future.

I'm just going to end this posting now (since I'm REALLY tired of typing the phrase "mainstream timeline" over and over).  I look forward to your response.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Killraven and GOTG - two great flavors in one!
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 22, 2003 at 21:16:52:
In Reply to: Re: "And suddenly - the Guardians of the Galaxy!"
posted by Don Campbell on August 22, 2003 at 00:12:55:

> M/PRS 4 presented "An Outline Course in World History 1975-3015 A.D." in which Steve Gerber provided a more detailed version of the future-history that he wrote for DEF 26.  The thing that really struck me was the fact that, although the Martian invasion of 2001 A.D. is covered (and Killraven is mentioned), at no time does he refer to it as being the SECOND such invasion.

> Why did I find this to be important?  Well, it's my understanding that the "War of the World" storyline in AA was not an updated version of the classic Wells novel but a SEQUEL to it.  In other words, the story was set on an Earth where the Martian conquest of 2001 had been preceded by a failed invasion attempt in 1901.

> And, as far as I know, the "mainstream" Earth has never been invaded by Martians.

Just like Galactus' coming and the Infinity Crusade are mass hallucinations?  How unrealistic is a coverup conspiracy?

> Therefore, since the GotG timeline is said to have diverged from the "mainstream" timeline sometime in the late 20th century, the Killraven from that timeline could not be the same person as the Killraven in the AA stories.

Incorrect, and I think this is a pillar that a good part of your argument rests on.

Until M/TIO 69 (Nov, 1980, IIRC), the Killraven/GOTG was the *official future*.  In that book Vance Astro prematurely triggered his younger self's mutanity and broke off the Mainstream from the original.

> Sure, they're dimensional counterparts of each other and they probably led very similar lives but that doesn't mean that we can assume that the events depicted in AA happened to the GotG Killraven.

DEFENDERS and the lettercol strongly imply that the writers at that time intended them to be part of the same timeline.  Why confuse readers with two different versions of Killraven so early in the game (1975)?

[Edited for compression:]
> Also, I believe that my opinion is supported by the third volume (Update '89) of the Marvel Handbook #4: "Killraven is the native of an alternate Earth in which sentient octopus-like aliens known as Martians invaded the United Kingdom in 1901.

I am 99% sure that OHOTMU Master Edition says that the AA2 KR is the same as the one from the GOTG past.  Can't find it at the moment.

In AVENGERS FOREVER #10, Immortus lists a number of places where he interfered with the timeline.  He claims responsibility for turning Martian attention toward Earth, *and then* responsibility for turning Baddon attention to Earth - resulting in the events of SILVER SURFER v1 #2.  This implies that the Martians acted *some time prior* to ther Silver Age SS story.  Hence, 1901.  Additionally, MARVEL CLASSIC COMICS #14 (1976) depicted an Early-20th Century Martian invasion of the UK in its adaption of the original War of the Worlds.

> (It has not yet been revealed whether these aliens actually originated on Mars, or whether their race is native to another planet and merely uses Mars as a base.)

It was revealed in AVENGERS FOREVER #4 that they were from elsewhere and used Mars as a staging base for invasion.

> As I see it, there are about four different versions of Killraven in the Marvel Universe, all counterparts of each other but existing in their own separate timelines.  Listed in order of appearance, they are:

> 1. Killraven-AA (AA2 #18-39 and MGN #7 and Killraven one-shot)

Okay.

> 2. Killraven-GG (DEF #26) comes from an alternate timeline which supposedly diverged from the "mainstream" Earth as a result of events in M/TIO #69.  While we can assume that this Killraven had many adventures similar to those depicted in AA2, those stories are not specifically tied to this Killraven and, in my opinion only, it would be a mistake to state that they are.

No cigar.

> 3. Killraven-AF (AVF #4-6) comes from an alternate timeline that may (or MAY NOT) have diverged from the "mainstream" Earth sometime between A3 #11 and #12 (after Giant-Man, the Wasp and Rick Jones appeared at Avengers Mansion). After all, the Black Panther of that future Earth knew of the Destiny War so any divergence must have occurred after people who knew of it had returned to their proper time, right?

As of at least A3 42 page 9, the Destiny War Killraven still exists in a possible (although highly unlikely) future.

> 4. Killraven-AD (Killraven [vol. 2?] #1-6) is the creation of Alan Davis who chose to tell his story without being bound by continuity.  Thus his Killraven comes from a totally different Earth, one which didn't seem to have ever had any super-powered humans.

Yep.  Lastly, there's the Paradise X Killraven, who exists in Alex Rossverse continuity.

> > Comments more than welcome!

> Are you still sure about that?

Bring 'em on!

> While it's true that the KILLRAVEN one-shot did contain some mention that the world's governments explained away the 1901 Martian invasion as some sort of hoax, I don't recall any story that ever definatively stated that such an invasion and cover-up took place on the "mainstream" Marvel Earth.

Since the divergence occured after 1901 (in 1980), the two timelines have a common past up to that point.

> Now, if that Gerber text page HAD referred to the SECOND Martian invasion of 2001, then I would have accepted the idea that the Amazing Adventures stories took place in a possible future of the "mainstream" Earth --- just like the future-history related by Major Astro did.

I understand your point despite the inaccurate terminology - but I think you are stretching.

> To me, the key statement is that "Killraven is a native of an alternate Earth in which sentient octopus-like aliens known as Martians invaded the United Kingdom in 1901."

They aren't all octopus-like.  Some look like potatoes; I think they are their race's Deviants.  But I digress.

> With this sentence, the Marvel Handbook is clearly identifying the 1901 Martian invasion as the DIVERGENCE which caused Killraven's timeline to become an "alternate" to the "mainstream" timeline.

It isn't saying that there *wasn't* an invasion in the Mainstream past.  Just that there was one in KR's past.  Which turned out to be one in the same.

- SK, waiting for someone to claim there's also another Dargo...

			*	*	*

Re: Killraven and GOTG - two great flavors in one!
Posted by Don Campbell on August 23, 2003 at 01:50:15:
In Reply to: Killraven and GOTG - two great flavors in one!
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 22, 2003 at 21:16:52:

Oh, good, more spirited discussion.

> > And, as far as I know, the "mainstream" Earth has never been invaded by Martians.

> Just like Galactus' coming and the Infinity Crusade are mass hallucinations?  How unrealistic is a coverup conspiracy?

While I agree that such a coverup conspiracy is certainly *possible*, I have never read any story (at least none that was definitely set in the mainstream timeline) in which it was stated that Martians invaded Earth in 1901 --- and that includes Major Astro's future-history in DEF #26 which only mentioned the 2001 invasion.

> > Therefore, since the GotG timeline is said to have diverged from the "mainstream" timeline sometime in the late 20th century, the Killraven from that timeline could not be the same person as the Killraven in the AA stories.

> Incorrect, and I think this is a pillar that a good part of your argument rests on.

> Until M/TIO 69 (Nov, 1980, IIRC), the Killraven/GOTG was the *official future*.  In that book Vance Astro prematurely triggered his younger self's mutanity and broke off the Mainstream from the original.

I respectfully disagree.  Until M/TIO 69, the future as described by Major Astro was only a POSSIBLE future, not the *official* future.  Also, AVF #6 shows that Immortus was "involved in Vance Astro of the Guardians of the Galaxy's time-travel meeting with his younger self"...but I'm not sure what that means since (lower down the page) you point out that Immortus has acted to ensure that the Killraven/Guardians timeline would be created.

> > Sure, they're dimensional counterparts of each other and they probably led very similar lives but that doesn't mean that we can assume that the events depicted in AA happened to the GotG Killraven.

> DEFENDERS and the lettercol strongly imply that the writers at that time intended them to be part of the same timeline.  Why confuse readers with two different versions of Killraven so early in the game (1975)?

Hey, maybe the writer, Steve Gerber, DID intend for the Killraven character he included in DEF #26 to be the exact same guy from AA2.  I'm just saying that maybe he wasn't considering all the continuity implications of doing so, namely that, if the AA2 stories were set in a possible future of the mainstream timeline, that would mean that the 1901 Martian invasion would have to be a part of the mainstream timeline's past (would that be a retcon?).  As I said before, Gerber never described the 2001 Martian invasion as being the second such attack.  Maybe he just didn't consider all the consequences (or he wasn't as "devoted to continuity" as we are to care).

> > Also, I believe that my opinion is supported by the third volume (Update '89) of the Marvel Handbook #4: "Killraven is the native of an alternate Earth in which sentient octopus-like aliens known as Martians invaded the United Kingdom in 1901."

> I am 99% sure that OHOTMU Master Edition says that the AA2 KR is the same as the one from the GOTG past.  Can't find it at the moment.

Killraven's entry is in issue #31 of the Master Edition and it doesn't mention the Guardians of the Galaxy at all.  Maybe you're thinking of a Master Edition entry for one of the Guardians?

> In AVENGERS FOREVER #10, Immortus lists a number of places where he interfered with the timeline.  He claims responsibility for turning Martian attention toward Earth, *and then* responsibility for turning Baddon attention to Earth - resulting in the events of SILVER SURFER v1 #2.  This implies that the Martians acted *some time prior* to ther Silver Age SS story.  Hence, 1901.

Okay, again I must respectfully disagree.  I'm looking at AFV #10 right now and I just don't see that sequence of events that you seem to see.  Sure, he MENTIONS his visit to Mars before he describes his meeting with the Badoon but that doesn't mean that those visits occured in that chronological order.  Besides, AFV #12's listing of sources simply states that "Immortus's visit to the 'Martians' occurred prior to Amazing Adventures (vol. 2) #18" and since, as far as I know, that particular story was set in the year 2001, that only means that Immortus visited Mars sometime before 2001.  Right?

Also, you're forgetting that Immortus was busy tampering with many different timelines, not just one.  Just because most of the images of such tampering that we saw in AVF #6 dealt with the mainstream timeline doesn't mean that he wasn't just as meddlesome with other timelines...those that he didn't destroy outright, at least.

Maybe there was a timeline (Killraven's) in which the "Martians" invaded Earth in 1901 on their own without any prompting from Immortus.  And maybe Immortus knew of that timeline and, when the "Martians" of the mainstream timeline didn't move fast enough, he stepped in to help ensure the desired result, the GotG timeline.

> Additionally, MARVEL CLASSIC COMICS #14 (1976) depicted an Early-20th Century Martian invasion of the UK in its adaption of the original War of the Worlds.

That...really doesn't prove anything since it's just a comic book adaptation of the novel by H.G. Wells. There's nothing to say that it was meant to be a part of Marvel continuity.  In fact, MARVEL CLASSIC COMICS is not on the "alphabetical list of Marvel's publications with series set in the Marvel Universe" which appeared on the inside back covers of issues #17 & 18 of the Marvel Handbook (vol. 2).  Of course, that list also states that it "excludes western, romance, barbarian, and non-series monster comics".

> > (It has not yet been revealed whether these aliens actually originated on Mars, or whether their race is native to another planet and merely uses Mars as a base.)

> It was revealed in AVENGERS FOREVER #4 that they were from elsewhere and used Mars as a staging base for invasion.

Yes, I know that.  I only included that sentence because I wanted to quote the first paragraph of Killraven's history in its entirity and that was the second of the three sentences.  And while it is in AFV #4 that Killraven first raises the possibility that Mars is only the staging base for the "Martian" aliens, it was not until AVF #10 that Immortus revealed/established-as-fact that the "Martians" were actually a "militant race that had reached Mars."

> > While it's true that the KILLRAVEN one-shot did contain some mention that the world's governments explained away the 1901 Martian invasion as some sort of hoax, I don't recall any story that ever definatively stated that such an invasion and cover-up took place on the "mainstream" Marvel Earth.

> Since the divergence occured after 1901 (in 1980), the two timelines have a common past up to that point.

That depends entirely on when you believe Killraven's timeline diverged from the mainstream timeline.  Since I believe that the 1901 Martian invasion did NOT occur in the mainstream timeline, that means that Killraven's timeline diverged back in 1901 and so the two timelines do NOT have a common past up until the (1980) divergence of the GotG timeline...which I still maintain is NOT the same as Killraven's timeline.

> > Now, if that Gerber text page HAD referred to the SECOND Martian invasion of 2001, then I would have accepted the idea that the Amazing Adventures stories took place in a possible future of the "mainstream" Earth --- just like the future-history related by Major Astro did.

> I understand your point despite the inaccurate terminology - but I think you are stretching.

Maybe I am but there's no definitive proof one way or the other so I feel free to stretch to my heart's content.  Ah, the joy of exercise!

> > To me, the key statement is that "Killraven is a native of an alternate Earth in which sentient octopus-like aliens known as Martians invaded the United Kingdom in 1901."

> > With this sentence, the Marvel Handbook is clearly identifying the 1901 Martian invasion as the DIVERGENCE which caused Killraven's timeline to become an "alternate" to the "mainstream" timeline.

> It isn't saying that there *wasn't* an invasion in the Mainstream past.  Just that there was one in KR's past.  Which turned out to be one in the same.

Now I think that you're the one doing the stretching.

> - SK, waiting for someone to claim there's also another Dargo...

Funny you should mention that...but I need sleep so that will have to wait for another time.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

A word from Ripjak
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 27, 2003 at 21:11:22:
In Reply to: Re: Killraven and GOTG - two great flavors in one!
posted by Don Campbell on August 23, 2003 at 01:50:15:

In GOTG 55, Ripjak, the last surviving "Martian" tells of the fall of his race...

"My status as the preeminent Martian scientist rapidly increased when I was chosen to engineer 'the final pillage' hundreds of years after our great conquest.

"Earth's remaining natural resources were depleted and the long occupation ended with a glorious homecoming.  The High Overlord elevated elevated me to a cabinet chair.

"But soon afterwards, incurable plague began rampaging across Mars.  The most sophisticated exo-suits were useless.

"It poisoned the inner-life fluid network.  Our own blood became acitoxic and ate away at us from within!

" Panic gripped the populace.  Some speculated it was Earth-borne bacteria as in THE FIRST FAILED INVASION, but my tests proved otherwise."

This would seem to be conclusive evidence that the 1901 "Martian" invasion of the UK occurred in the GOTG's past.  In turn, it also would have been in the Mainstream 1901, and covered up as explained in KR 1.

- SK

			*	*	*

Re: A word from Ripjak
Posted by Don Campbell on August 29, 2003 at 00:55:17:
In Reply to: A word from Ripjak
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 27, 2003 at 21:11:22:

> In GOTG 55, Ripjak, the last surviving "Martian" tells of the fall of his race...

> "My status as the preeminent Martian scientist rapidly increased when I was chosen to engineer 'the final pillage' hundreds of years after our great conquest.

> "Earth's remaining natural resources were depleted and the long occupation ended with a glorious homecoming.  The High Overlord elevated elevated me to a cabinet chair.

> "But soon afterwards, incurable plague began rampaging across Mars.  The most sophisticated exo-suits were useless.

> "It poisoned the inner-life fluid network.  Our own blood became acitoxic and ate away at us from within!

> " Panic gripped the populace.  Some speculated it was Earth-borne bacteria as in THE FIRST FAILED INVASION, but my tests proved otherwise."

> This would seem to be conclusive evidence that the 1901 "Martian" invasion of the UK occurred in the GOTG's past.  In turn, it also would have been in the Mainstream 1901, and covered up as explained in KR 1.

Yes, you are absolutely RIGHT - but you are also wrong - both at the same time.  Let me explain.

On the one hand, the Ripjak diary entries that you quoted are one of several instances in which the later GOTG stories mention (or imply) that there was a Martian invasion of Earth prior to 2001.  Another example is in the third GOTG annual when Mainframe, while recounting the history of the Book of Kells, mentions "a time when Mars launched its second invasion of Earth."  And I would agree that such references SEEM to be conclusive evidence that the "Martian" invasion of 1901 took place in the common past shared by the mainstream timeline and the GOTG timeline.

On the other hand, the only such references to there having been two Martian invasions in the GOTG timeline occur in the later GOTG stories, all of which were written by Michael Gallagher.  Sadly, those issues showed that Mr. Gallagher was not as "continuity-conscious" as you or I might have liked him to be.  Ironically, the quote that you provided is a perfect example of his lax continuity.

First, I want to make it clear that the nine sentences that you quoted above are taken from Ripjak's personal log and that the events that they describe took place IN THE SAME ORDER as he described them.

Okay, now I'm going to string the first three sentences together in one long sentence.  I'll use appropriate words to join them together in a way that preserves their meaning - as Gallagher wrote them.

"My status as the preeminent Martian scientist rapidly increased when I was chosen to engineer 'the final pillage' hundreds of years after our great conquest" AND THEN, AFTER 'THE FINAL PILLAGE' WAS FINISHED, "Earth's remaining natural resources were depleted and the long occupation ended with a glorious homecoming" AT WHICH TIME "The High Overlord elevated me to a cabinet chair."

Do you see what I mean?  These sentences indicate that Mr. Gallagher believed that the "long occupation" of Earth by the Martians had lasted for "hundreds of years after (their) great conquest".  In other words, he was of the opinion that the Martians didn't leave Earth until sometime after the year 2201...AND THAT'S WRONG.  Major Astro's future-history in DEF 26 (and Steve Gerber's text page in M/PRS 4) state, in no uncertain terms, that the alien invaders were gone from Earth by the year 2075.  And if Mr. Gallagher could be wrong about such a "fact", then he could easily be wrong about other "facts" in his stories - like the idea that the 2001 invasion was the second such invasion.

Another good example of Mr. Gallagher's laxity can be found in way he brings Stakar back into the series.  It REALLY doesn't make any sense.  As I recall, Stakar convinced the Guardians to travel back in time to prevent the Badoon from ever conquering Earth.  They arrived in the mainstream timeline just as the INFINITY WAR crossover was taking place.  Most of the team went to Moord where Charlie-27 was badly injured by a Badoon empowered by the Captain Universe energy.  Aleta defeated Stakar, took control of their shared physical form and powers, and then she SOMEHOW changed Stakar into his embryonic form and transported him into the glass jar that he was destined to occupy on Arcturus IV until shortly before Ogord the Reaver found him.  Back on Moord, the new Starhawk defeated the Badoon champion and the Guardians returned to their own time, unaware that they had left one of Yondu's Yaka metal daggers behind.  Back in the 31st Century, the team had a few adventures (including one on an Earth which seemed just as they had left it) before Aleta brought them to a much-changed Centauri IV.  There they were they met Yondu who remembered them and told them that leaving his dagger behind on Moord had changed history so that the Badoon invaded his planet centuries earlier than they had in the GOTG history.  The Guardians were then surprised to encounter Stakar who had lived through the last 1,000 years in order to regain his power from Aleta.  After a brief battle, the Hawk God appeared to the Starhawks and joined them together physically.  The Starhawks then agreed to Yondu's demand that they restore his planet's previous history and they returned to 20th century Moord to undo the critical event.  After travelling back in time, apparently without much effort, they vaporized the Yaka dagger and then returned to the 31st century to find Centauri-IV restored to the way it had been before the "time jolt".

SK, can you list the number of ways that the storyline I've described is wrong (in other words, "inconsistent with Marvel time travel theory as we know it")?  I'm curious as to whether you will see the same flaws in it that I do.  Then we can discuss whether or not everything in Mr. Gallagher's stories should be accepted as canon.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

A question of the entire GOTG canon
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 29, 2003 at 17:54:50:
In Reply to: Re: A word from Ripjak
posted by Don Campbell on August 29, 2003 at 00:55:17:

Dauntless Don Campbell wrote:

> On the other hand, the only references to there having been two Martian invasions in the GOTG timeline occur in the later GOTG stories, all of which were written by Michael Gallagher.  Sadly, those issues showed that Mr. Gallagher was not as "continuity-conscious" as you or I might have liked him to be.  Ironically, the quote that you provided is a perfect example of his lax continuity.

> First, I want to make it clear that the nine sentences that you quoted above are taken from Ripjak's personal log and that the events that they describe took place IN THE SAME ORDER as he described them.

> Okay, now I'm going to string the first three sentences together in one long sentence.  I'll use appropriate words to join them together in a way that preserves their meaning - as Gallagher wrote them.

> "My status as the preeminent Martian scientist rapidly increased when I was chosen to engineer 'the final pillage' hundreds of years after our great conquest" AND THEN, AFTER 'THE FINAL PILLAGE' WAS FINISHED, "Earth's remaining natural resources were depleted and the long occupation ended with a glorious homecoming" AT WHICH TIME "The High Overlord elevated me to a cabinet chair."

> Do you see what I mean?  These sentences indicate that Mr. Gallagher believed that the "long occupation" of Earth by the Martians had lasted for "hundreds of years after (their) great conquest".  In other words, he was of the opinion that the Martians didn't leave Earth until sometime after the year 2201...AND THAT'S WRONG.  Major Astro's future-history in DEF 26 (and Steve Gerber's text page in M/PRS 4) state, in no uncertain terms, that the alien invaders were gone from Earth by the year 2075.  And if Mr. Gallagher could be wrong about such a "fact", then he could easily be wrong about other "facts" in his stories - like the idea that the 2001 invasion was the second such invasion.

The way I understand it, the Martians left by 2075, and then, around 2201, they came back for a THIRD INVASION, which was the final pillage.  Bubonicus killed them shortly afterword.  It isn't airtight or pretty, but I don't think we break any eggs here.

As an aside, we don't know why the Martians left to begin with.  If the visions in KR 1 are in any way prophetic, Killraven lived to at least 2075 and possibly established peace with *some* Martians.  Maybe the bad Martians waited until the good ones died off to come back and do some pillaging.

> Another good example of Mr. Gallagher's laxity can be found in way he brings Stakar back into the series.  It REALLY doesn't make any sense.

To put it mildly, Gallagher's plausibility aesthetic was less than satisfactory.  Nevertheless, his Guardians crossed over with NEW WARRIORS twice, recommending his status quo for continuity.  Despite his track record, he was hardly the first Marvel writer to do stories that didn't make sense or were less than heartwarming to the fans.  The Crossing?  The Clone Saga?  Heroes Reborn?  They're all in continuity.

> can you list the number of ways that the storyline I've described is wrong (in other words, "inconsistent with Marvel time travel theory as we know it")?  I'm curious as to whether you will see the same flaws in it that I do.  Then we can discuss whether or not everything in Mr. Gallagher's stories should be accepted as canon.

Although I am less than crazy about Gallagher, dismissing GOTG #30-62 and Annuals 3-4 as well as GALACTIC GUARDIANS #1-4 seems a bit extreme.  That's one HUGE chunk of history to cast aside, and, given that it was *intended by the creators* as canon, I'm satisfied to blame Immortus and except it all as canon.

You'll recall that Martinex was just starting his idea of galactic Avengers, and this would be in direct opposition to Immortus' plan to restrict Human influence in the cosmos.  Beginning with Stakar turning 'dark' and leading the GOTG on into the 20th-Century wild goose chase that meandered through the rest of the series, the GOTG were thrown into a confusion and aimlessness that we've yet to see them recover from.  Thus, Immortus succeeded in containing Humanity's spread.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: A question of the entire GOTG canon
Posted by Don Campbell on August 30, 2003 at 00:15:46:
In Reply to: A question of the entire GOTG canon
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 29, 2003 at 17:54:50:

> > I'll use appropriate words to join them together in a way that preserves their meaning - as Gallagher wrote them.

> > "My status as the preeminent Martian scientist rapidly increased when I was chosen to engineer 'the final pillage' hundreds of years after our great conquest" AND THEN, AFTER 'THE FINAL PILLAGE' WAS FINISHED, "Earth's remaining natural resources were depleted and the long occupation ended with a glorious homecoming" AT WHICH TIME "The High Overlord elevated me to a cabinet chair."

> > Do you see what I mean?  These sentences indicate that Mr. Gallagher believed that the "long occupation" of Earth by the Martians had lasted for "hundreds of years after (their) great conquest".  In other words, he was of the opinion that the Martians didn't leave Earth until sometime after the year 2201...AND THAT'S WRONG.  Major Astro's future-history in DEF 26 (and Steve Gerber's text page in M/PRS 4) state, in no uncertain terms, that the alien invaders were gone from Earth by the year 2075.  And if Mr. Gallagher could be wrong about such a "fact", then he could easily be wrong about other "facts" in his stories - like the idea that the 2001 invasion was the second such invasion.

> The way I understand it, the Martians left by 2075, and then, around 2201, they came back for a THIRD INVASION, which was the final pillage.  Bubonicus killed them shortly afterword.  It isn't airtight or pretty, but I don't think we break any eggs here.

I could have sworn that either DEF #26 or M/PRS #4 mentioned something about how the Martians "left and never returned" but I just checked and they don't.  However, neither do they mention any return visits after 2075 so I still find your interpretation of Ripjak's diary to be unconvincing.  I'm sorry but I just don't see that sequence of events as being what was written in Ripjak's diary.  My point was simply that Mr. Gallagher didn't know the previously-established "fact" of when the Martian occupation of Earth ended and just wrote what he thought would make for a good story.  In other words, if the writer didn't research his subject matter properly, maybe we should be more willing to "explain away" some of his "facts" that are inconsistent with "facts" that were established in earlier stories (by writers who DID do their research).

> As an aside, we don't know why the Martians left to begin with.  If the visions in KR 1 are in any way prophetic, Killraven lived to at least 2075 and possibly established peace with *some* Martians.  Maybe the bad Martians waited until the good ones died off to come back and do some pillaging.

Possible.  The only thing we do know is that, even in the early 31st Century, mankind knew NOTHING about exactly when and why the Martians left.  Furthermore, Gallagher's stories seem to be written as though the Martians were native to Mars.

> > Another good example of Mr. Gallagher's laxity can be found in way he brings Stakar back into the series.  It REALLY doesn't make any sense.

> To put it mildly, Gallagher's plausibility aesthetic was less than satisfactory.  Nevertheless, his Guardians crossed over with NEW WARRIORS twice, recommending his status quo for continuity.

Did they? I don't remember that.  What were the crossover stories about?

> Despite his track record, he was hardly the first Marvel writer to do stories that didn't make sense or were less than heartwarming to the fans.  The Crossing?  The Clone Saga?  Heroes Reborn?  They're all in continuity.

True, but both the Crossing and the Clone Saga were later modified (by later stories) to make them more acceptable to the fans than they had been and in both cases that meant "explaining away" some of the more bothersome elements of the original storylines.  AVENGERS FOREVER revealed that the Kang and Mantis (and their forces) who appeared in the Crossing were actually just Immortus and his Space Phantoms messing with the minds of the Avengers.  And John Byrne was brought onto the Spider-books specifically to explain away the storyline that "established" that the Spider-Man who'd been appearing since ASM #149 was actually a clone and that the "real" Spidey had been wandering the country for years, calling himself 'Ben Reilly' and thinking that HE was the clone.

> > can you list the number of ways that the storyline I've described is wrong (in other words, "inconsistent with Marvel time travel theory as we know it")?  I'm curious as to whether you will see the same flaws in it that I do.  Then we can discuss whether or not everything in Mr. Gallagher's stories should be accepted as canon.

> Although I am less than crazy about Gallagher, dismissing GOTG #30-62 and Annuals 3-4 as well as GALACTIC GUARDIANS #1-4 seems a bit extreme.  That's one HUGE chunk of history to cast aside, and, given that it was *intended by the creators* as canon, I'm satisfied to blame Immortus and except it all as canon.

I am NOT, repeat NOT, suggesting that all of Gallagher's GOTG stories be simply dismissed out of hand.  What I am suggesting is that some of the more dubious elements of those storylines could, in some future stories, be "explained away" so that the original stories would be more "in continuity" (or just more sensible) than they are now.

> You'll recall that Martinex was just starting his idea of galactic Avengers, and this would be in direct opposition to Immortus' plan to restrict Human influence in the cosmos.  Beginning with Stakar turning 'dark' and leading the GOTG on into the 20th-Century wild goose chase that meandered through the rest of the series, the GOTG were thrown into a confusion and aimlessness that we've yet to see them recover from.  Thus, Immortus succeeded in containing Humanity's spread.

Actually, my idea was that it was the Hawk God who secretly caused that whole "altered history of Centauri IV" mess of a plotline just to get Stakar back in the GOTG's 31st Century.  As I see it, the whole idea that the Guardians could affect their own timeline's history by causing a divergence in the mainstream timeline (which had ALREADY diverged from the GOTG timeline) was absolute nonsense, as was the idea that Yondu would somehow be unaffected by the change (since the time jolt effect would only apply to the Guardians who caused that divergence in the past).  My thought was that after the Guardians returned to their own (unaffected) timeline and then went to Asgard, the Hawk God somehow transported Yondu to the newly-diverged timeline and then tricked Aleta into believing that she was taking the Guardians to their Centauri IV when she was actually taking them to the divergent timeline's Centauri IV.  Once there, the Guardians met up with Yondu and Stakar, then the Hawk God appeared and joined Stakar and Aleta together physically, and then the Starhawks went back in time, cancelled out that divergent timeline and returned to find that their Centauri IV had been seemingly restored to its previous state.  As for why the Hawk God would bother, it was known that he had some purpose in selecting Stakar to receive his power and for setting him on that endless series of lives in the first place.  Maybe the Hawk God was getting frustrated with how long it was taking Stakar to do what the Hawk God secretly wanted him to do so he decided he had to intervene to get Stakar back to some place where he could FINALLY proceed with the Hawk God's secret agenda.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: A question of the entire GOTG canon
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 30, 2003 at 08:12:58:
In Reply to: Re: A question of the entire GOTG canon
posted by Don Campbell on August 30, 2003 at 00:15:46:

"Dauntless" Don C. says:

> My point was simply that Mr. Gallagher didn't know the previously-established "fact" of when the Martian occupation of Earth ended and just wrote what he thought would make for a good story.  In other words, if the writer didn't research his subject matter properly, maybe we should be more willing to "explain away" some of his "facts" that are inconsistent with "facts" that were established in earlier stories (by writers who DID do their research).

I think it has always been the MCP's policy to preserve as much of every story as possible when trying to make sense of the big picture.

> The only thing we do know is that, even in the early 31st Century, mankind knew NOTHING about exactly when and why the Martians left.  Furthermore, Gallagher's stories seem to be written as though the Martians were native to Mars.

Whether the "Martians" were from Mars or Albuquerque is more or less beyond the scope of the MCP unless it involves issues of chronology.

> > To put it mildly, Gallagher's plausibility aesthetic was less than satisfactory.  Nevertheless, his Guardians crossed over with NEW WARRIORS twice, recommending his status quo for continuity.

> Did they? I don't remember that.  What were the crossover stories about?

NW 36 - Marvel Boy, in the Vault, views a holographic recording from Major Victory made during Gallagher's 20th's Century adventures.

NW 68 - The Guardians, at some point after their series ended, travel back to the Mainstream to kidnap Speedball, who is emitting weird temporal signals.

> both the Crossing and the Clone Saga were later modified (by later stories) to make them more acceptable to the fans than they had been and in both cases that meant "explaining away" some of the more bothersome elements of the original storylines.

And by declaring Gallagher GOTG stories non-canon, it would deprive future writers of an opportunity to make sense of things.

> I am NOT, repeat NOT, suggesting that all of Gallagher's GOTG stories be simply dismissed out of hand.

That's a relief.

> What I am suggesting is that some of the more dubious elements of those storylines could, in some future stories, be "explained away" so that the original stories would be more "in continuity" (or just more sensible) than they are now.

Which would argure IN FAVOR of keeping them as is for the next writer.  So are we agreed that GOTG should be chronologized AS IS?  (Which, I think, is the *whole point* of this thread?)

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: A question of the entire GOTG canon
Posted by don Campbell on August 31, 2003 at 13:13:13:
In Reply to: Re: A question of the entire GOTG canon
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 30, 2003 at 08:12:58:

> I think it has always been the MCP's policy to preserve as much of every story as possible when trying to make sense of the big picture.

Agreed.

> Whether the "Martians" were from Mars or Albuquerque is more or less beyond the scope of the MCP unless it involves issues of chronology.

True.  Unless the homeworld of the "Martians" is such that it indicates that they originated in a RADICALLY different timeline...which is not the case here.

> > I am NOT, repeat NOT, suggesting that all of Gallagher's GOTG stories be simply dismissed out of hand.

> > What I am suggesting is that some of the more dubious elements of those storylines could, in some future stories, be "explained away" so that the original stories would be more "in continuity" (or just more sensible) than they are now.

> Which would argure IN FAVOR of keeping them as is for the next writer.  So are we agreed that GOTG should be chronologized AS IS?  (Which, I think, is the *whole point* of this thread?)

I have no problem with that.  What I do disagree with is the idea of the MCP making any sort of statement that it is "absolutely, positively, 100% certain" that the Killraven from Amazing Adventures is a part of the Guardians of the Galaxy's timeline.  Remember these lines from you original posting?

> The following post...lists species, integrates MARVEL SUPER-HEROES #18, DEFENDERS v1 #26-29, MARVEL TEAM-UP #45 & 46, MARVEL GRAPHIC NOVEL #7, KILLRAVEN #1, and characters already covered in the Project that are native to Killraven's timeline (notably the Dargo and Guardians of the Galaxy).

I simply maintain that there is insufficient RELIABLE evidence that the Killraven from the GOTG timeline (who only appeared in ONE PANEL in DEF #26) is absolutely the same character as the Killraven from AA2.  Until such firm evidence is provided (in some future story), the MCP would be jumping the gun to conclude that they were anything more than dimensional counterparts of each other.  It would therefore be a mistake to list all the GOTG and KR characters together on the "soon-to-be-renamed(?) Killraven Mythos page."

With respect to the MCP, that's all I'm saying.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

The real Martians
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 28, 2003 at 17:17:03:
In Reply to: Re: "And suddenly - the Guardians of the Galaxy!"
posted by Don Campbell on August 22, 2003 at 00:12:55:

Don Campbell sez:

> Regarding the Martian characters who appeared in 2099: WORLD OF TOMORROW, the "Takers" (as they were called by the humans from the Ares Colony) were the last few survivors of a sentient race that was native to Mars.  According to them, the Mars of over ten thousand years ago (ie. before 7,900 BCE) was a very habitable planet until the Phalanx tried to conquer it.  The Martians were able to repel the invaders but the Phalanx proved to be REALLY SORE LOSERS and decided that, if they couldn't have Mars, then nobody could...so they rendered the surface of Mars uninhabitable (some Martians survived in deep underground shelters).  Some of these survivors decided to travel to Earth but their ship was sabotaged by other Martians (who felt that fleeing from their home was dishonourable) and they crashed in the Savage Land where their ship remained undisturbed until 2099.  Anyway, those Martians left on Mars placed themselves in suspended animation but by 2099 there were only about six left, all of whom  chose to die in battle with the Phalanx who had returned to the Sol system to conquer Earth.

Have the 2099 Martians appeared anywhere else besides 2099: WORLD OF TOMORROW?

- SK

			*	*	*

Re: The real Martians
Posted by Don Campbell on August 28, 2003 at 22:16:24:
In Reply to: The real Martians
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 28, 2003 at 17:17:03:

> Have the 2099 Martians appeared anywhere else besides 2099: WORLD OF TOMORROW?

As far as I know they have not.  If the 2099: WORLD OF TOMORROW storyline was accurate, then the last surviving native Martians slept through the past ten-thousand-plus years of history - which would include any "Martian" invasions of Earth that took place in the 20th and 21st centuries.  And since their backstory (was it a retcon?) goes so far back, that means that any timeline in which they did NOT exist would have to have diverged from the mainstream timeline at least that far back as well.

Speaking of Martians, the only Killraven story that I have is the Marvel Graphic Novel but I once had the opportunity to flip through some old Amazing Adventures issues.  From what I can recall, the stories were written as though the "Martians" were native to Mars.  I have a vague memory of one scene where a Martian used its ability to send its mind far into the past of Mars so it could relive events from a happier time for its race.  Could someone who has those AA2 issues tell me if there are any other such scenes that seemed to show that the "Martians" really were from Mars?

Also, from what I remember from that quick scan of those issues, the Martians seemed to be drawn differently from issue to issue.  Was any explanation given for these inconsistent appearances?  Or was it just chalked up to being the work of different artists?

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: The real Martians
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 29, 2003 at 18:26:49:
In Reply to: Re: The real Martians
posted by Don Campbell on August 28, 2003 at 22:16:24:

"Dauntless" Don continues...

> As far as I know they have not. If the 2099: WORLD OF TOMORROW storyline was accurate, then the last surviving native Martians slept through the past ten-thousand-plus years of history - which would include any "Martian" invasions of Earth that took place in the 20th and 21st centuries. And since their backstory (was it a retcon?) goes so far back, that means that any timeline in which they did NOT exist would have to have diverged from the mainstream timeline at least that far back as well.

We have no evidence that the real Martians didn't continue to sleep away on Mars during the imposter Martian occupation.  As far retcons, in the original sense of "retroactive continuity," yes, it is a retcon.  *Any newly revealed event* in the past is a retcon in this sense.  Isaac Asimov died from HIV, but the public didn't know it until 10 years later.  There's a retcon for you.

In the newer, destructive sense of the term 'retcon' (replacing established lore), the 2099 Martians are not retcons.  They haven't been mentioned elsewhere and haven't been contradicted.

> Speaking of Martians, the only Killraven story that I have is the Marvel Graphic Novel but I once had the opportunity to flip through some old Amazing Adventures issues. From what I can recall, the stories were written as though the "Martians" were native to Mars. I have a vague memory of one scene where a Martian used its ability to send its mind far into the past of Mars so it could relive events from a happier time for its race. Could someone who has those AA2 issues tell me if there are any other such scenes that seemed to show that the "Martians" really were from Mars?

"Red Dust Legacy."  AA2 36 where the High Overlord reminisces about the Martian lava caverns.  Just because they enjoyed the place, that doesn't mean they are native to Mars.

> Also, from what I remember from that quick scan of those issues, the Martians seemed to be drawn differently from issue to issue. Was any explanation given for these inconsistent appearances? Or was it just chalked up to being the work of different artists?

Different artists.  There's an article *somewhere* (I could probably find it if I had to) where Craig Russell says he specifically redesigned them for MGN 7.  Their variety could be explained if they are Deviants of their species.

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: The real Martians
Posted by Don Campbell on August 29, 2003 at 22:46:25:
In Reply to: Re: The real Martians
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 29, 2003 at 18:26:49:

> > If the 2099: WORLD OF TOMORROW storyline was accurate, then the last surviving native Martians slept through the past ten-thousand-plus years of history - which would include any "Martian" invasions of Earth that took place in the 20th and 21st centuries. And since their backstory goes so far back, that means that any timeline in which they did NOT exist would have to have diverged from the mainstream timeline at least that far back as well.

> We have no evidence that the real Martians didn't continue to sleep away on Mars during the imposter Martian occupation.

While I still believe that the imposter Martians in the mainstream timeline did NOT invade Earth in 1901, I have absolutely no problem with the idea that the real Martians were sleeping deep beneath the surface during the whole time that the imposter Martians were using Mars as a base.  I would only have a problem if some future story claimed that those aliens had been on Mars for more than ten thousand years.  The reason I brought it up was because, when I first read those 2099:WOT stories, I thought that there was NO DOUBT that the Martians in the Killraven stories were meant to be REAL Martians.  I immediately came to the conclusion that if the WOT Martians and the AA2 Martians were BOTH native to Mars, then their respective timelines must have diverged MILLIONS (or billions) of years ago during the evolution of life on Mars.  Fortunately, that turned out to not be necessary.

By the way, where did the idea that the AA2 Martians were just using Mars as a staging base come from?  I first read it mentioned as a possibility in that Marvel Handbook entry for Killraven that I quoted from above and it was in AVF #10 that it was first "established as fact" but was it discussed anywhere before then?  I'm just wondering if the idea was developed to a) explain away the differences between to two types of Martians or b) to explain why the MU Mars was inhabited even though science tells us that the real planet Mars is known to be uninhabitable.

Also, does anybody else wish that somebody at Marvel would get around to writing a story in which the real name and homeworld of the imposter Martians is finally revealed?  I'm getting tired of typing "imposter Martians" so often.

> > From what I can recall, the (AA2) stories were written as though the "Martians" were native to Mars. I have a vague memory of one scene where a Martian used its ability to send its mind far into the past of Mars so it could relive events from a happier time for its race. Could someone who has those AA2 issues tell me if there are any other such scenes that seemed to show that the "Martians" really were from Mars?

> "Red Dust Legacy."  AA2 36 where the High Overlord reminisces about the Martian lava caverns.  Just because they enjoyed the place, that doesn't mean they are native to Mars.

It also doesn't mean that they weren't native but I'll concede the point.  I was just curious as to how much "proof" was presented in those AA2 stories that the "Martians" actually originated on Mars.  I guess you're saying that there wasn't much?

> > Also, the Martians seemed to be drawn differently from issue to issue. Was any explanation given for these inconsistent appearances? Or was it just chalked up to being the work of different artists?

> Different artists.  There's an article *somewhere* (I could probably find it if I had to) where Craig Russell says he specifically redesigned them for MGN 7.  Their variety could be explained if they are Deviants of their species.

As with the matter of the true species name of the so-called Martians, this is something I'd like to see "established as fact" in some future story - assuming it was well-written, of course.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Drawing the bottom line in the Martian sand
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 30, 2003 at 14:59:10:
In Reply to: Re: The real Martians
posted by Don Campbell on August 29, 2003 at 22:46:25:

"Dauntless" Don C. says:

> While I still believe that the imposter Martians in the mainstream timeline did NOT invade Earth in 1901

You are welcome to believe whatever you wish.  Still, I'd wager that the Project decides that AA2 & GOTG are canon - internally canon, canon with each other, and canon as the timeline that the Mainstream diverged from with a common past.

The vibe I get is that you are looking for loopholes to justify your opinion that the Mainstream SHOULD NOT have a 1901 invasion.  This, to be blunt, flies against decades of creator intent.  True, the majority of current Marvel writers are not aware of the 1901 event, but that should not negate it.

Anybody else have $0.02 either way?

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Speaking the last words in the Martian atmosphere
Posted by Don Campbell on August 31, 2003 at 15:38:47:
In Reply to: Drawing the bottom line in the Martian sand
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 30, 2003 at 14:59:10:

> "Dauntless" Don C. says:

> > While I still believe that the imposter Martians in the mainstream timeline did NOT invade Earth in 1901

> You are welcome to believe whatever you wish.  Still, I'd wager that the Project decides that AA2 & GOTG are canon - internally canon, canon with each other, and canon as the timeline that the Mainstream diverged from with a common past.

> The vibe I get is that you are looking for loopholes to justify your opinion that the Mainstream SHOULD NOT have a 1901 invasion.  This, to be blunt, flies against decades of creator intent.  True, the majority of current Marvel writers are not aware of the 1901 event, but that should not negate it.

Okay, I agree that we're getting nowhere.  I doubt that there is anything that either of us could say that would convince the other to change his beliefs.  That being said, here are my last words on the subject.

You maintain that the events depicted in AA2 are part of the GOTG timeline becuae of a) the appearance of Killraven in one panel of DEF #26 and b) several references to there having been two "Martian" invasions of Earth that appear in stories written by someone whose "plausibility aesthetic was less than satisfactory."  In my opinion, this is NOT sufficient RELIABLE evidence to conclusively prove your opinion is correct.

In disputing your position, I offer the following two facts (or, in the interests of fairness,  should that be "facts"?).  First, nowhere in the story (DEF #26) and text page (M/PRS #4) that first linked the GOTG timeline with 'a' character named Killraven (or in the majority of the GOTG stories ever written) is there any mention of the 2001 invasion from Mars being the second such invasion (something that could have been easily included - if it was meant to be).  Second, the Marvel Handbook says that Killraven is a native of an alternate Earth, not an alternate future, something which I feel is significant.

Let us look at these two statements in more depth.  First, since you're the one who brought up "decades of creator intent", let's try and figure out what that intent actually was.  Since there is no mention of a "Martian" invasion of Earth (at least, not of one which occurred in the year 1901) in the GOTG stories which appeared in MTIO or in those GOTG issues written by Jim Valentino, we have to limit ourselves to considering the future-history which appeared in DEF #25 and M/PRS #4, both written by Steve Gerber.  Since we don't know what he was thinking when he wrote those stories, we have to rely on logical deduction.  Given that he must have known SOMETHING about the AA2 stories, that leads me to propose three possible scenarios.

Scenario #1 - When writing the future-history as told by Major Astro, Gerber decided it would be interesting to include elements from other "near future" storylines that Marvel was publishing then.  He knew a little about the Killraven storyline in AA2 but thought it was only a modernization of the H.G. Wells novel, not a sequel.  Thus, his future-history left out any mention of the 1901 invasion because it was a story element of which he was unaware.

Scenario #2 - When writing his future-history, Gerber was totally aware of the 1901 invasion that was part of the Killraven mythos but, for some reason, he just...forgot to include any reference to it in his story and his text page.  Maybe he just ASSUMED that readers who were familiar with Killraven would just take it for granted that a 1901 invasion did take place.

Scenario #3 - When writing his future-history, Gerber was totally aware that a 1901 invasion was part of the Killraven mythos but, while he liked the idea of "Martians" who conquered Earth in 2001 and Killraven and his Freemen who fought back against them, he didn't want to include the 1901 invasion so he DELIBERATELY ommitted it from his story.  Maybe he felt, as I do, that the idea that a large-scale (most of the United Kingdom) invasion by aliens was not compatible with the previously-established history of the "mainstream" timeline.  Of course, back then there was no mention of a "mainstream" timeline since, with the exception of alternate dimensions like the "Other-Earth" of the Squadron Supreme, all Marvel stories were presumed to take place in the same fictional world, Marvel-Earth.

I believe that either the first or third of those scenarios describes what Gerber's "creator intent" was.  You seems to belive that the second is the valid one.  Only Stever Gerber knows for sure.  Anybody know how to contact him?

Finally, we come to the Marvel Handbook and what IT says about Killraven.  I'll just quote the first sentence listed under Killraven's history:  "Killraven is a native of an alternate Earth in which sentient octopus-like aliens known as Martians invaded the United Kingdom in 1901."  I've considered this sentence in two ways, first on its own and then in comparison to how other Handbook entries are written.

1) When I look at this sentence on its own, I seem to follow a three-step process.  First, I identify the term "alternate Earth" as being significant.  Then, assuming that an "alternate Earth" must have a divergence point, I look for any mention of WHEN that divergence took place - which, in this case, is "in 1901".  Finally, I look for WHAT happened "in 1901" that caused the divergence - which, in this case, is "sentient octopus-like aliens known as Martians invaded the United Kingdom".

2) When I look at this entry in comparison to other Handbook entries, I come to a similar conclusion.  Last night I spent about an hour flipping through all the issues of the Marvel Handbook (actually, just volumes #2 & 3 - the Deluxe Edition and the Update '89).  After eliminating all entries about characters who were alien planets or dimensions, or clearly from the "mainstream" timeline, I was left with only 26 entries.  These could be broken down into three types: characters from alternate futures (ie. Guardians of the Galaxy, Immortus, Kang, Thundra, Tomorrow Man), those from alternate Earths (ie. Squadron Supreme members, Crazy Gang, Saturnyne), and those from the future of an alternate Earth (ie. Nimrod, Phoenix II, Rama-Tut, Scarlet Centurion).  Now, if your belief was correct, we'd expect to find Killraven listed as coming from an alternate future, whereas if my belief was correct, he would be from the future of an alternate Earth.  Instead, he is "a native of an alternate Earth" (the same as the entries for at least six Squadron Supreme members) - which seems closer to my belief than to yours.

Okay, that is splitting hairs a bit but I really believe that if the people who wrote the Marvel Handbook believed that the 1901 Martian invasion was part of the "mainstream" timeline THEY WOULD HAVE SAID SO when they had the chance.  For example, Killraven's history could have begun like this:  "In the year 1901 sentient octopus-like aliens known as Martians invaded the United Kogndom.  Using their tripod-like war machines, the Martians threatened to conquer the planet, but instead died due to their lack of immunity to diseases carried by Earth's microorganisms.  In the wake of the failed invasion, the world's leaders (or Mankind) chose to fictionalize the whole encounter because the truth was just too terrible to face (Note: most of the last sentence is taken from the Killraven one-shot).  As a result, the general populace (of "mainstream" Earth) is unaware of the existence of these "Martians" or that the unsuccessful 1901 invasion ever took place".

The second paragraph of Killraven's history listing would then have begun like this:  "In an alternate future, exactly a century later, in 2001 AD, the Martians staged another invasion of Earth."

Another possible way that Killraven's history could have begun is this: "Killraven is the native of the Earth of an alternate timeline, one which recenty diverged from the "mainstream" reality when the latent mutant psionic power of a teenager named Vance Astovik was prematurly awakened by his older self from an alternate future, Major Vance Astro of the 31st team of champions known as the Guardians of the Galaxy."  This would have DEFINITIVELY included the Killraven from AA2 in the GOTG timeline and, in doing so, also made it clear that the 1901 "Martian" invasion took place in the "mainstream" timeline.

Okay, that's it.  I'm done.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: Speaking the last words in the Martian atmosphere
Posted by Dan Spears on August 31, 2003 at 23:13:41:
In Reply to: Speaking the last words in the Martian atmosphere
posted by Don Campbell on August 31, 2003 at 15:38:47:

Has anyone thought to look at the Marvel Team-Up story where Spider-Man meets Killraven in the future using Dr. Doom's time machine?  Can't remember the exact number - somewhere around #46 or so, if I recall.  It might not prove anything one way or the other, but if Killraven were to mention his 2001 invasion as being the second one to occur in Spider-Man's timeline...

Peace,
Dan

			*	*	*

M/TU 45 and the Wars of the Worlds
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on September 01, 2003 at 06:11:53:
In Reply to: Re: Speaking the last words in the Martian atmosphere
posted by Dan Spears on August 31, 2003 at 23:13:41:

Dan Spears sez:

> Has anyone thought to look at the Marvel Team-Up story where Spider-Man meets Killraven in the future using Dr. Doom's time machine?  Can't remember the exact number - somewhere around #46 or so, if I recall.  It might not prove anything one way or the other, but if Killraven were to mention his 2001 invasion as being the second one to occur in Spider-Man's timeline...

MARVEL TEAM-UP #45, page 16:

"You don't know?  No, I can see that you don't.  This is the year 2019, friend -- Just eighteen years since the SECOND Martian invasion of Earth!  UNLIKE THE FIRST -- this one was a success!"

"Footnote - As chronicled in AMAZING ADVENTURES beginning with issue #18."

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Re: M/TU 45 and the Wars of the Worlds
Posted by Don Campbell on September 01, 2003 at 11:21:06:
In Reply to: M/TU 45 and the Wars of the Worlds
posted by StAkAr Karnak on September 01, 2003 at 06:11:53:

> Dan Spears sez:

> > Has anyone thought to look at the Marvel Team-Up story where Spider-Man meets Killraven in the future using Dr. Doom's time machine?  Can't remember the exact number - somewhere around #46 or so, if I recall.  It might not prove anything one way or the other, but if Killraven were to mention his 2001 invasion as being the second one to occur in Spider-Man's timeline...

> MARVEL TEAM-UP #45, page 16:

> "You don't know?  No, I can see that you don't.  This is the year 2019, friend -- Just eighteen years since the SECOND Martian invasion of Earth!  UNLIKE THE FIRST -- this one was a success!"

> "Footnote - As chronicled in AMAZING ADVENTURES beginning with issue #18."

Sorry, but as Dan Spears said, that doesn't prove anything.  All that quote shows is that two Martian invasions of Earth took place in Killraven's timeline.  (Actually, it only proves that Killraven BELIEVES that there was an earlier invasion.  Hypothetically, it's possible that he just found a copy of the "War of the Worlds" novel by H.G. Wells and mistook it for a history text...but I digress, just for the fun of imagining SK's first reaction to that comment.  In all honesty, I do not dispute that an earlier Martian invasion took place in Killraven's timeline, okay?).

As for how that quote relates to the future of Spider-Man's timeline, I would have to say that there's nothing conclusive about it.  And the proof can be found in the the very next issue of Marvel Team-Up when Spider-Man meets up with Deathlok the Demolisher.  After the future-history in DEF #26 was published, many fans believed that it showed that Deathlok and Killraven existed in the same timeline.  However, later stories proved CONCLUSIVELY that that couldn't be true.  As revealed in Captain America #286-289, Luther Manning's transformation into the Deathlok cyborg took place after Roxxon Oil's Nth Commandos wiped out all of America's super-powered beings in 1983.  And when the Guardians got their own title, that series revealed that many of America's super-heroes gave their lives fighting the Martian invasion of 2001.  Therefore the GOTG timeline could not include the Deathlok who appeared in be Astonishing Tales #25-36.  However, it's likely that the "creator intent" behind the DEF #26 story was that Deathlok and the Guardians were from different points in the same timeline...until later "revelations" made that impossible.

Basically, that means that when Spider-Man visited two different future times in M/TU #45 & 46 he was actually visiting the future of two different TIMELINES...and while Deathlok's time period was (almost certainly) a possible future of the mainstream timeline (before it diverged in CA #289), the Killraven time period could just have easily been a possible future of a timeline which diverged prior to the 1901 Martian invasion.

By the way, Killraven's entry in the Marvel Handbook mentions the Deathlok-Killraven-Guardians link.  Killraven's history listing ends with these sentences:

"Note: According to one account, the original Deathlok and the Guardians of the Galaxy are also native to the alternate Earth dimension in which Killraven exists. (See Deathlok, Guardians of the Galaxy).  According to this account, the Martian conquerors of Earth were eventually overthrown."

Since this information is clearly wrong, someone (with the initials SK) could argue that that proves that the Marvel Handbook's entry for Killraven is definitely wrong.  However, since the words "According to one account" precede the inaccurate info, that limits the PROVABLE inaccuracy to that final Note.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

War of the Words
Posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 13:24:59:
In Reply to: Re: M/TU 45 and the Wars of the Worlds
posted by Don Campbell on September 01, 2003 at 11:21:06:

> Basically, that means that when Spider-Man visited two different future times in M/TU #45 & 46 he was actually visiting the future of two different TIMELINES...and while Deathlok's time period was (almost certainly) a possible future of the mainstream timeline (before it diverged in CA #289), the Killraven time period could just have easily been a possible future of a timeline which diverged prior to the 1901 Martian invasion.

This is going to get me creamed here -- but I have to step in.

You said Spider-Man was using Dr. Doom's time machine -- but I don't think we've ever seen the machine move CROSS-TIME, as you're suggesting -- only up and down the single timeline on which it exists.

As I understand it, Dr. Doom's time machine can visit any point in the past of OUR timeline, or the future of ANY timeline which HAS NOT YET diverged from our own -- but that's ALL.  It can't visit the future of a timeline that's ALREADY diverged.

I'm not saying that Killraven and Deathlok DO exist in the same timeline -- for all we know, the machine brought Spidey back to the present as a quick "reset" before launching him into a DIFFERENT tangent future -- but I *am* saying that, because of how the time machine works, any timeline visited has to have not diverged yet.  Spidey in 1976 couldn't visit a timeline that diverged in 1901.

Meeeaning: there IS a strong implication that, if Killraven is accurate, there WERE two Martian invasions in a timeline that HADN'T YET branched off of the main MU.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: War of the Words
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on September 01, 2003 at 16:02:06:
In Reply to: War of the Words
posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 13:24:59:

To make this easier(?), I've put together a little PowerPoint demo, of sorts:

http://www.geocities.com/glakandar/gotw/timestream.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/glakandar/gotw/timestream2.jpg

Either way, the machine is going to visit more than one timeline.  Still, the first scenerio seems more likely, I think.

- SK

			*	*	*

Re: War of the Words
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on September 01, 2003 at 16:06:52:
In Reply to: Re: War of the Words
posted by StAkAr Karnak on September 01, 2003 at 16:02:06:

The pictures didn't show up in my last post, for whatever reason.  Try the link below instead.
- SK

http://www.geocities.com/glakandar/gotw/timestream.htm

			*	*	*

Re: War of the Words
Posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 17:16:54:
In Reply to: Re: War of the Words
posted by StAkAr Karnak on September 01, 2003 at 16:02:06:

> Either way, the machine is going to visit more than one timeline.

But, since M/TU #65 was published BEFORE either of the divergence points -- M/TIO #69 or Cap #286 -- it still has the ability, on the "Karnak Model", to travel to both futures.  (If, as I said, it brought Spidey briefly back to the present BETWEEN trips.)

On the "Campbell model", however, Doom's time mechine would be unable to reach the AA2 future unless it jumped cross-time, which to my knowledge we've never seen it do.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: War of the Words
Posted by Don Campbell on September 01, 2003 at 18:28:47:
In Reply to: Re: War of the Words
posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 17:16:54:

> > Either way, the machine is going to visit more than one timeline.

> But, since M/TU #65 was published BEFORE either of the divergence points -- M/TIO #69 or Cap #286 -- it still has the ability, on the "Karnak Model", to travel to both futures.  (If, as I said, it brought Spidey briefly back to the present BETWEEN trips.)

> On the "Campbell model", however, Doom's time mechine would be unable to reach the AA2 future unless it jumped cross-time, which to my knowledge we've never seen it do.

When I first read your posting I got a bit worried.  I was sure that the way time travel works in the Marvel Universe (ie. time travellers leave their own time and enter Limbo, and then leave Limbo to enter the time they want to visit) would allow Doctor Doom's type of time machine to travel croos-time as well as into the past or future of the timeline in which it originated but I couldn't think of an example.

And then I did.  In fact, here are TWO examples.

The first comes from FANTASTIC FOUR #371-373 in which Reed Richards discovered that his father, Nathaniel, had invented a time machine years before the FF was even formed.  Using the time machine, the FF go in search of Nathaniel and end up on an alternate Earth in which the Dark Ages never happened.  In other words, an Earth which diverged from the mainstream Earth over one thousand years ago.  John Byrne called this "Other Earth" but it was later called "Warlord's Earth" by the Watcher it was in one of the possible futures of that timeline in which Kang the Conqueror was eventually born.

The second example is from MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE #50 in which Ben Grimm tried to change himself back into a human being by travelling into his own past and curing his past self.  He managed to cure the past Ben but when he returned to his time he found that he was still the Thing.  Reed Richards explained that it was because his visit into the past had just caused a divergent timeline to come into being.

Later, in this story's sequel in MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE #100, Reed revealed that further analysis had shown that Ben had actually travelled to a timeline which had diverged from the mainstream timeline well before Ben's visit.  In fact, the city that he had visited, which had seemed to be New York, was actually named New Amsterdam.  This meant that that timeline had diverged many years ago, when the city of New Amsterdam in the divergent timeline kept its original name while the city in the mainstream timeline (and the real world) was renamed New York.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: War of the Words
Posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 18:46:02:
In Reply to: Re: War of the Words
posted by Don Campbell on September 01, 2003 at 18:28:47:

> In fact, here are TWO examples.

Well, I'm talking about the mechanics of how DOCTOR DOOM'S time machine works.  Your first example uses Nathaniel Richards' time machine, which may operate completely differently.

However, your second example ... was this Dr. Doom's time machine that Ben used?  If so -- and if M/TIO #100's revelations ARE accurate, and haven't been retconned away later on -- then yes, there's one example of Doom's time machine jumping cross-time...

...which means I haven't really helped clarify anything in this argument.  Rats.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: War of the Words
Posted by Don Campbell on September 02, 2003 at 00:07:41:
In Reply to: Re: War of the Words
posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 18:46:02:

> > In fact, here are TWO examples.

> Well, I'm talking about the mechanics of how DOCTOR DOOM'S time machine works.  Your first example uses Nathaniel Richards' time machine, which may operate completely differently.

>In FF #271, Reed Richards looks at his father's time machine and states that it is a time-platform that is "virtually identical to the one we have in the physics lab of the Baxter Building, the one we captured from the castle of Doctor Doom" in FF #5.  Given that it seems to function exactly like Doom's version, it seems likely that both machines would have the same ability to travel cross-time.

> However, your second example ... was this Dr. Doom's time machine that Ben used?  If so -- and if M/TIO #100's revelations ARE accurate, and haven't been retconned away later on -- then yes, there's one example of Doom's time machine jumping cross-time...

As the quote I listed above indicates, John Byrne was under the impression that the FF's time machine was the actual device that they, ah, "salvaged" from Doom's upstate New York castle after the events of FF #5.  However, that's not exactly right.  I remember an annual, written by Roy Thomas, in which Ben wonders why Doom never demanded that the FF return his property.  Reed replied that they had returned Doom's time machine but not before he had studied it thoroughly enough to make a functioning duplicate, which he then improved upon.  Sadly, it seems that none of the other writers who have used the FF's time machine in their stories have been aware of this little fact, so they usually have footnotes saying it's Doom's machine from FF #5.

By the way, would anybody know if there's any sort of chronological listing for such rare items in the MU?  I recall several inconsistencies in the operating history of Doom's time machine.  You know, stories (like M/TU #41-46) which begin with our heroes going to Doom's abandoned castle in Latveria to use the machine...even though the last story to feature the machine showed that it was in Doom's abandoned castle in upstate New York.  There's also an WCA story which states that Doom's time machine had lain abandoned out west for a hundred years ever since Hawkeye used it to go to the Old West...except that that AVENGERS storyline showed that the machine that Hawkeye used had returned to the present without him.  So where did that long-abandoned time machine come from?

> ...which means I haven't really helped clarify anything in this argument. Rats.

But didn't you have fun participating?

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: War of the Words
Posted by Dimadick on September 05, 2003 at 06:08:17:
In Reply to: Re: War of the Words
posted by Don Campbell on September 02, 2003 at 00:07:41:

>There's also an WCA story which states that Doom's time machine had lain abandoned out west for a hundred years ever since Hawkeye used it to go to the Old West...except that that AVENGERS storyline showed that the machine that Hawkeye used had returned to the present without him.  So where did that long-abandoned time machine come from?

Isn't that the Time Machine appearing in the "Lost in Space-Time" storyline between West Coast Avengers II #17-23? It belonged to Dominus II but I don't recall if he created it himself or whether he acquired it from Dr. Doom or another source. But it was rather flawed. It could only travel to the past of any given point in time rather than any version of its future. The whole storyline had the Avengers traveling from 1876 to 1776, then to 2940 BC and finaly to 2940 BC. In the last stop Moonknight, Firebird and Hank Pym use Reed Richards' Time Machine to meet them and retrieve them. Apparently it had more fanctions in it. Were they both copies of the same Model of Time Machines?

I had recently revisited the story to check a comment by Hawkeye. When the others propose to get back in time and seek help from Merlin, "the unofficial historian of the Avengers" disagrees on the bases that several guys had operated under the name and some of them were villains.

			*	*	*

Re: War of the Words
Posted by Don Campbell on September 05, 2003 at 09:33:56:
In Reply to: Re: War of the Words
posted by Dimadick on September 05, 2003 at 06:08:17:

> >There's also an WCA story which states that Doom's time machine had lain abandoned out west for a hundred years ever since Hawkeye used it to go to the Old West...except that that AVENGERS storyline showed that the machine that Hawkeye used had returned to the present without him.  So where did that long-abandoned time machine come from?

> Isn't that the Time Machine appearing in the "Lost in Space-Time" storyline between West Coast Avengers II #17-23? It belonged to Dominus II but I don't recall if he created it himself or whether he acquired it from Dr. Doom or another source. But it was rather flawed. It could only travel to the past of any given point in time rather than any version of its future. The whole storyline had the Avengers traveling from 1876 to 1776, then to 2940 BC and finaly to 2940 BC. In the last stop Moonknight, Firebird and Hank Pym use Reed Richards' Time Machine to meet them and retrieve them. Apparently it had more fanctions in it. Were they both copies of the same Model of Time Machines?

In Avengers #137, Hawkeye goes off to use Doctor Doom's time machine to go back to the 12th Century to get the Black Knight.  In Avengers #139, Iron Man and Moondragon go to an abandoned castle in Latveria but find that the time machine isn't there (a footnote references "#56" as the last time the Avengers were there).  In Avengers #140, just as Iron Man and Moondragon are about to leave, the time machine returns with blood on its deck but both IM and MD suspect it's a trap.  In Avengers #141, Immortus helps Thor and Moondragon to travel back in time and, after repulsing an attack by Kang, they arrive in the year 1873.  A flashback in Avengers #142 shows how Hawkeye, when he was ambushed by Kang, threw things "out of kilter" by fighting back, and then appeared, without the time machine, in the Old West.  And finally, in Avengers #144 & 147, Thor, Moodragon, Hawkeye and the Two-Gun Kid use Kang's own time-sphere to travel to the 20th Century.

In West Coast Avengers (vol. 2) #17, the WCA were ambushed by Dominus and sent back in time on Doctor Doom's damaged time machine which Dominus had found after searching in the desert for months and which could only travel backwards in time.  And in WCA2 #18, Hawkeye identifies it as the one he used to go to the Old West (and a footnote references Avengers #142-143).  However, since Kang returned THAT machine as part of his trap, we know that the machine that Dominus found COULDN'T be the same one that Hawkeye used...so where did it come from?

Also, in every appearance that I can remember, it was only the glowing yellow square of Doom's time machine that travelled in time while the controls STAYED IN THE PRESENT.  Except in WCA2 #17-23, where the controls go along with the travellers.  Well, I guess it was just more damaged than anybody knew.  What a lucky break for the WCA.  Or maybe it was Immortus meddling somehow?

As for the FF's time machine, it was a duplicate of Doom's original machine which Reed Richards had improved in various ways.  It was destroyed by minions sent by Dominus in WCA2 #22 but Reed Richards and Henry Pym managed to repair/rebuild it in WCA2 #23.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Re: War of the Words
Posted by DCW3 on September 02, 2003 at 15:00:16:
In Reply to: Re: War of the Words
posted by Don Campbell on September 01, 2003 at 18:28:47:

> The second example is from MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE #50 in which Ben Grimm tried to change himself back into a human being by travelling into his own past and curing his past self.  He managed to cure the past Ben but when he returned to his time he found that he was still the Thing.  Reed Richards explained that it was because his visit into the past had just caused a divergent timeline to come into being.

Since the guys across the board are talking about "Futurama," this entire discussion has brought to mind one of my favorite quotes from the show: 

"Take that, causality!"

			*	*	*

A word from Gerber
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on September 01, 2003 at 06:02:43:
In Reply to: Speaking the last words in the Martian atmosphere
posted by Don Campbell on August 31, 2003 at 15:38:47:

"Dauntless" Don sez:

> since you're the one who brought up "decades of creator intent", let's try and figure out what that intent actually was. Since there is no mention of a "Martian" invasion of Earth (at least, not of one which occurred in the year 1901) in the GOTG stories which appeared in MTIO or in those GOTG issues written by Jim Valentino, we have to limit ourselves to considering the future-history which appeared in DEF #25 and M/PRS #4, both written by Steve Gerber.

> Since we don't know what he was thinking when he wrote those stories, we have to rely on logical deduction. Given that he must have known SOMETHING about the AA2 stories, that leads me to propose three possible scenarios.

> Scenario #1 - When writing the future-history as told by Major Astro, Gerber decided it would be interesting to include elements from other "near future" storylines that Marvel was publishing then. He knew a little about the Killraven storyline in AA2 but thought it was only a modernization of the H.G. Wells novel, not a sequel. Thus, his future-history left out any mention of the 1901 invasion because it was a story element of which he was unaware.

> Scenario #2 - When writing his future-history, Gerber was totally aware of the 1901 invasion that was part of the Killraven mythos but, for some reason, he just...forgot to include any reference to it in his story and his text page. Maybe he just ASSUMED that readers who were familiar with Killraven would just take it for granted that a 1901 invasion did take place.

> Scenario #3 - When writing his future-history, Gerber was totally aware that a 1901 invasion was part of the Killraven mythos but, while he liked the idea of "Martians" who conquered Earth in 2001 and Killraven and his Freemen who fought back against them, he didn't want to include the 1901 invasion so he DELIBERATELY ommitted it from his story. Maybe he felt, as I do, that the idea that a large-scale (most of the United Kingdom) invasion by aliens was not compatible with the previously-established history of the "mainstream" timeline. Of course, back then there was no mention of a "mainstream" timeline since, with the exception of alternate dimensions like the "Other-Earth" of the Squadron Supreme, all Marvel stories were presumed to take place in the same fictional world, Marvel-Earth.

> I believe that either the first or third of those scenarios describes what Gerber's "creator intent" was. You seems to belive that the second is the valid one. Only Stever Gerber knows for sure. Anybody know how to contact him?

I emailed Steve via SteveGerber.com and here's what he had to say:

---

>I don't know how familliar you are with either Killraven or after-your-tenure Guardians, but the Guardians are said to be the original timeline until a new one (the one in which all current Marvel books take place) diverged in MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE #69.

I recall Don McGregor's Killraven, but I know absolutely nothing about what Marvel did with the Guardians after my stint on the book.

>What it boils down to is this: As far as you can recall, did you intend the AMAZING ADVENTURES stories to take place in the Guardians' past?

I truly don't remember, but the answer is "probably yes" if I made reference to Killraven in the story.

--

What say you, Don?

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

A Voice from the Past
Posted by Don Campbell on November 27, 2003 at 15:38:38:
In Reply to: A word from Gerber
posted by StAkAr Karnak on September 01, 2003 at 06:02:43:

While I'm impressed that you contacted Mr. Gerber for his input, I'm afraid that what he had to say doesn't help any.  Aside from the fact that he truly doesn't remember what his intentions were when he wrote DEFENDERS, the questions you asked him were too general.  Even if he had answered them with an "ABSOLUTELY YES!!! (instead of "probably yes"), we still wouldn't have been able to determine which of the three scenarios I listed above was the valid one.

By the way, I read your posting only hours after you posted it and was inspired to send my own email to Mr. Gerber.  Unfortunately, I never received an answer.  Maybe my email was just too long and annoying for him to bother to reply to it or maybe he did reply but his email was bounced back because my account was full of spam (an all-too-frequent occurence, I'm afraid).  Anyway, I was going to give him a week to reply before I posted my own reply but, once the week had passed without any reply, I kept putting off my own posting...until now, almost three months after your posting.  Sorry about that.

Anyway, the main reason for this posting is something I think you might find interesting.  A few weeks ago I pulled out my MARVEL TEAM-UPs to look up the issues which featured Spider-Man's involvement with the Salem Witch Trials of 1692.  Since those issues led into Spidey's meeting with Killraven, I read MTU 45 as well, and then, since they were already out, I went looking for the letters page with the readers' reactions to that pairing.  I found it in MTU #49 and I was especially interested in the fourth and final letter printed therein, which I will now reproduce in its entirity:

Dear Bill,
  Considering that Spider-Man meets Killraven is a premise that most writers wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pencil, MTU #45 came off pretty well. However, I feel compelled to try to clarify a possible misconception one might get from reading #45's "Future Shock."  Namely: Spider-Man's concern that "Nothing we do matters because in thirty years time the Martians are gonna grind it all into paste."
  It has already been established that no future is the only possible course of reality a world will take (notably in DEFENDERS #26), but Spider-Man has even less cause for concern. Killraven's world of 2019 couldn't possibly be in Spider-Man's future, because Marvel-Earth is NOT in Killraven's past. What warrants this conclusion? Simply this: it is highly improbable that in 1900 on Marvel-Earth the Martians attacked as in H.G. Wells' original book. Had they, it seems improbable that the reality of Marvel-Earth of the 30's (Doc Savage), 40's (Invaders) and 60's (Fantastic Four) would have turned out as depicted in the wake of the Martian aftermath. It also seems improbable that the inception of the mass super-hero population of the 70's wouldn't have found some way to stem a possible Martian invasion before it could occur. Although we do not know for certain that all Marvel's heroes will be dead or retired by the time of the Martian invasion of 2001, one imagines that some would still answer the clarion call to save Earth--if indeed the War of the Worlds were actually one of Earth's futures. We all know that Doom's time platform can travel to alternate realities (as witnessed in FANTASTIC FOUR #152), so Spidey could have easily gone to the future of another Earth besides his own. Remember that the future is wide open, and there's no reason to tie all future down to Marvel-Earth. I guess it can't be said any better than as expressed in your story, Bill: "There are many pasts, thinks Killraven, many presents...and the future, for all men, is different."

                             Mark Gruenwald
                          1260 Westhaven Dr.
                           Oshkosh, WI 54901

When I first read this letter, I was very pleased because I felt that I had finally found something definitive that proven my position.  However, after considering it a bit more, I realized that it wasn't that difinitive after all.  First, this letter was written in 1976 --- BEFORE Mark Gruenwarld started to work at Marvel.  Therefore, he was speaking as a continuity-conscious fan and not as the Marvel editor who was later famed for his attention to continuity.

Second, as far as I know, Mark Gruenwald never had any direct involvement in any Killraven story ever written.  While he was the writer/producer on the first two editions of the Official Marvel Handbook, he was only an executive editor on the third volume...which is the one in which the Killraven entry was printed.  Still, it's worth pointing out that MG's co-writer on the Deluxe Edition was Peter Sanderson, the person who was the sole writer/researcher for Update '89 and therefore the writer of the Killraven entry.  Presumably the two of them did discuss what Peter was doing and MG probably would have voiced his opinion.  Does anybody know how to contact Mr. Sanderson?

Third, MG's fan letter was based on the assumption that Killraven's Earth was probably NOT Marvel-Earth and therefore never had Marvel's super-heroes to defend it. Apparently MG had missed reading 1974's MTIO #4 in which Tarin mentioned that there had been a Captain America in her Earth's past.  Of course, it wasn't until the Guardians of Galaxy got their own series that there was any mention/depiction of Marvel super-heroes fighting the Martian invasion of 2001.

Still, while this letter doesn't prove anything one way or another, it does make for interesting reading, doesn't it?  Also, the fact that it was printed without any (negative) editorial response (ie. no "Sorry, but you're mistaken") could be taken as agreement with MG's belief that Killraven's world was not Spider-Man's future even then (even if MG was wrong on a few of his details).  As the saying goes, "Silence gives assent."

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

one more Dargo
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 26, 2003 at 19:23:25:
In Reply to: "And suddenly - the Guardians of the Galaxy!"
posted by StAkAr Karnak on August 21, 2003 at 20:10:04:

> THOR IV/DARGO KTOR
> **T 384 (1st appearance)
> T@ 16-FB

**FF 405  (19p4)  Zarrko pulls Dargo from the timestream. Could be after his T@ 2/2 appearence but definitely before the T 438 - T 441 arc (Dargo's right armband is the same as worn PRIOR to T 438). As 4 years go by between T 384 and T @ 2/2 I just figured there was plenty of time to slot it in. 

			*	*	*

oops
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 26, 2003 at 22:17:44:
In Reply to: one more Dargo
posted by Arthur Stein on August 26, 2003 at 19:23:25:

> > THOR IV/DARGO KTOR
> > **T 384 (1st appearance)
> > T@ 16-FB

> **FF 405  (19p4)  Zarrko pulls Dargo from the timestream. Could be after his T@ 2/2 appearence but definitely before the T 438 - T 441 arc (Dargo's right armband is the same as worn PRIOR to T 438). As 4 years go by between T 384 and T @ 2/2 I just figured there was plenty of time to slot it in. 

read T@ 16/2 for those T@ 2/2's!

			*	*	*

Early Marvel origins
Posted by RLG on August 23, 2003 at 20:36:26:

  Does anyone know what "month" FF#1 occurs?  And for that matter, Amz. Fant. #15, Hulk #1, etc..  Also, in regards to the "1961 or 1981" calander debate, what about calling the year that FF#1 occurs as "Year 1" and go from there. 

			*	*	*

Re: Early Marvel origins
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 23, 2003 at 22:27:29:
In Reply to: Early Marvel origins
posted by RLG on August 23, 2003 at 20:36:26:

My current theory is that FF 1 happened on February 27, since that's the date I assigned on the current calendar to FF3 50/1, which features the anniversary of the Fantastic Four.  This would also mean that FF 296 would have to occur on February 27, as that, too, is an anniversary issue.

I have Amazing Fantasy #15 occurring over a span of several weeks starting March 31 (again, an anniversary issue -- PPSM2 34 -- appears on the current calendar).  There a quite a few anniversaries of Ben Parker's death, so we'll have to watch this.

Thus, tentatively, I have Spidey debuting in the MU a little more than a month after the FF.

I haven't put assigned a firm calendar placement to H 1.

Things should firm up a bit when we ever get around to the calendar project from FF 1 on.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Early Marvel origins
Posted by RLG on August 24, 2003 at 11:56:24:
In Reply to: Re: Early Marvel origins
posted by Paul Bourcier on August 23, 2003 at 22:27:29:

Thanks for your help.  After reading your response, I realized that your answers also tied into my other posting "Jarvis circa SWII", specifically your placement of FF 296.

  I've picked up where you left off with the Avengers calendar and have been hashing it out.  In the aftermath of the Avengers Mansion take-over, She-Hulk (in AV 278) appologizes to Wasp for not being around for the battle.  It was explained that the FF were in "the Pacific" - FF 296-298.  Thus, mansion take-over in AV 273-277 also takes place late Fed/early March.  The same can be said for ASM 283, since it takes place during the take-over.  

  In WCA 17, Wasp warns Hank Pym that some of the Masters of Evil are loose in the aftermath of the battle to retake the mansion, so WCA 16-17 also occurs during the same time frame of late Feb/early March.  Also, WCA 17 leads into the "Lost in Space-time" storyline that concludes in WCA 24.  I know we are dealing with time-travel here, but Hank Pym's story line in those issues indicates that a short amount of time occurs between WCA 17 to WCA 24. 

 IF this is the case, then the FF's (minus Torch, but with Ben) appearance in WCA 22-23 would indicate they recently returned from their adventures in the Pacific in FF 296-298, not post-FF 303 as stated in the MCP.  Ben's re-cap of recent events in his life to Espirita in WCA 23, pg15, fails to make any mention of the Torch's wedding (circa FF 300).  This ommission leads me to believe that the wedding has not taken place and the Torch's absence from WCA 22-23 is for other reasons than his honeymoon.

  One more thought, if the calander references in V&SWII are accurate... 
#4 - late September, due to Halloween reference being "month" and Dr.Strange's assertion that Wanda will deliver her twins in the middle of May.
 #5 - Halloween
 #6 - Thanksgiving
 #7 - December 21st (winter soltace)
 #8 - late January (MLK day)
 #9 - late Feb/early March (Mardi Gras)
#11 - mid April (tax time)
#12 - mid May (birth of Wanda's twins)
...then the couples appearance might need some tweeking.  For example, V&SWII 9 would then take place near or during the Avengers Mansion take-over.

P.S. - a quick read of the Marvel Saga and your placement of FF 1, has me putting INC.HULK #1 sometime in April, JIM #83 & TOA #35 in mid May, and TOS #39 sometime during that summer.  TOA #27 would then take place early-mid March of the same year.

			*	*	*

Re: Early Marvel origins
Posted by Paul Bourcier on August 30, 2003 at 22:08:30:
In Reply to: Re: Early Marvel origins
posted by RLG on August 24, 2003 at 11:56:24:

>   One more thought, if the calander references in V&SWII are accurate...
>  #4 - late September, due to Halloween reference being "month" and Dr.Strange's assertion that Wanda will deliver her twins in the middle of May.
>  #5 - Halloween
>  #6 - Thanksgiving
>  #7 - December 21st (winter soltace)
>  #8 - late January (MLK day)
>  #9 - late Feb/early March (Mardi Gras)
> #11 - mid April (tax time)
> #12 - mid May (birth of Wanda's twins)
> ...then the couples appearance might need some tweeking.  For example, V&SWII 9 would then take place near or during the Avengers Mansion take-over.

I haven't gone back over my notes on this era to the extent that I did for the Avengers Calendar, so I don't have the definitive calendar for this time period, but I'd say you're on target with the second Vision & Scarlet Witch series.

> P.S. - a quick read of the Marvel Saga and your placement of FF 1, has me putting INC.HULK #1 sometime in April, JIM #83 & TOA #35 in mid May, and TOS #39 sometime during that summer.  TOA #27 would then take place early-mid March of the same year.

My notes confirm that JIM 83 and TOA 35 were in May, but I have Iron Man debuting in the spring, probably later in May (busy month).  This, despite the reference in IM '00 that the date was supposed to have been December twenty-something.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Jarvis circa. Secret Wars II
Posted by RLG on August 23, 2003 at 21:39:46:

  Going over Jarvis's appearances in FF, Avengers, & Power Pack during that time, I discovered some inconsistencies.  Here are proposed changes highlighted with a *:

-JARVIS-
MGN 27
PPSSM 106
AV 256
FF 280
FF 281
AV 258
CAP 310
*FF 282 - Franklin meets Power Pack for the 1st time
*PACK 15 - FF in the microverse
*PACK 16
*PACK 17
*AV 259
*SWII 3(pg 24-25:pn5)- Avengers in Skrull galaxy right before AV #260, so before AV@14 & FF@19 crossover
*FF@ 19
AV 261 (end)
FF 285
AV 262
PACK 18 - occurs in b/w pages of SWII #6
FF 286 - FF has been in space for "weeks"
CAP 314
AV 264
THOR 364
PACK 20 - Jack's X-Mas eve reference is premature
(End of SECRET WARS II reference point)
V&SWv2 7 - Christmas eve
V&SWv2 8 - Martin Luther King day
AV 267
AV 268
AV 269
AV 270 (pg 1-20) - Alpha Flight #36 occurs during gap
AV 270 (pg 21)
ETNLS v2 8
*THING 36 - placed here due to She-Hulk chrono
*HULK 321 - placed here due to She-Hulk & Cap's chrono
CAP 318
PACK 22
PACK 25
PACK 26 - occurs just before Mutant Massacre
(MUTANT MASSACRE reference point)
*PACK 28 - FF return from Snark space 
*AV@15 - occurs after Mutant Massacre, so it happens   after UX#209-213, XF#8-11, & THOR#373-374.  Also, the conclusion to this story (in WCA@1), shows the Hulk in containment, so this storyline also occurs after HULK #323.  Reed's & She-Hulk's appearance in WCA @1 indicate that the FF has returned from Snark space.
*CAP 323
AV 273,
(Avengers Mansion take over by Master of Evil reference point)

			*	*	*

Last 3 listings under "The Foreigner" appear to be out of order
Posted by John Omohundro on August 24, 2003 at 14:00:12:

Gentlemen:

Once again let me say this: I'm *not* trying to tell anyone at the MCP how to do his or her job. 

However, I would like to point out that, based upon the fact that the entries are listed in *chronological* order, the last three entries in under "FOREIGNER" appear to be out of sequence. 

The proper order is:
PPTSSM 209
PPTSSM 210
PPTSSM Annual 14 (Story 2)

			*	*	*

SHE-HULK...SHIVA...SIBERCAT
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 25, 2003 at 19:06:43:

new entries marked **

SHE-HULK/JENNIFER WALTERS
H2 321
**H2 322
H2 323

SHIVA
W2 50
**W2 60
**W2 61
**W2 64

SIBERCAT/
(aka Illyich Lavrov  SSS 1)
**SSS 1
IM3 9

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#113

			*	*	*

New Mutants/X-Factor/Atlantis Attacks
Posted by Scott on August 27, 2003 at 00:41:38:

Firstly, I use the MCP a lot, and thanks to all involved in it's creation.

However, I've just come across a very tricky situation, which I can't resolve to my satisfaction. 

According to the MCP, XF @4 fits between XF 42 & 43, while NM @5 fits between pages of NM 87.  However, NM @5 takes place before XF @4, but NM @5 appears to take place while X-Factor are in space during the Judgement War (XF 43-50).  The MCP also indicates NM 88 fitting between XF 51 & 52, which suggests that the New Mutants have been flying around on Warlock for the entire period of XF 43-51.  

I haven't been able to come up with a comfortable explanation for this, so I thought I'd ask the professionals, which means you guys.... can anyone explain this?

Scott

			*	*	*

Re: New Mutants/X-Factor/Atlantis Attacks
Posted by David Hall on August 27, 2003 at 12:55:52:
In Reply to: New Mutants/X-Factor/Atlantis Attacks
posted by Scott on August 27, 2003 at 00:41:38:

I have been looking into this problem and have discovered the following:

There is a problem with the listings for Atlantis Attacks 

NM @5 has to fit between pages of NM 87.

NM 87, has to occur after UX 255 (due to a comment made in NM 86, about Destiny's death)

However NM @5 also has to occur BEFORE

XF@ 4
AWC@ 4
T@ 14
FF@ 22

And in Llyra and Ghaur's entries it does (as well as Namorita's)

The Problem being that in Storm's entry these (AWC@ 4 , T@ 14, FF@ 22) are listed between UX 245 and 246. (When they have to occur After UX 255)

Further problem, Storm "dies" in UX 248, and her body is replaced by a Life Model Decoy (by Nanny and the Orphan Maker) while the real Storm is regressed in age to a child, as shown in fb in UX 267.

There is thus no way that Storm can appear in the Atlantis Attacks Annuals, after UX 255 at adult size.

Marvel Girl and the Beast listings have the problem of showing these (AWC@ 4,T@ 14, FF@ 22) (and A@18 in the case of Beast,) as occuring before XF 43. 

The Problem here is that NM @5 (occuring between pages of NM 87) has the line about how good it is to be home, where is the Ship?  

This means that the Atlantis Annuals can not occur Before the Ship/Celestials Arc, but have to occur After X-Factor returns from space (sometime after X-Fac 51/NM 88) (Perhaps between the two issues)

Having raised the problem, the only solution that I can see at this time, is for the annuals (AWC@ 4 ,A@18,T@ 14, FF@ 22) to be placed After Nm @5, and After The Celestial storyline in XF 43-50, and after the return to Earth in XF 51.  

This would satisfy things for Marvel Girl and the Beast, but not the Storm Problem.  There is no way that Storm can appear in these annuals,at adult size, but she does.

I can offer a couple of theories to work around this , BUT I should note that there is NO on-panel evidence to support them (and thus if someone can come up with an explanation which allows Storm to be present (at an adult size) for these annuals, I would be very happy.)

Unsupported Theory 1: The Storm in the Atlantis Attacks Annuals is a second Life Model Decoy released by Nanny to throw off Llyra and Ghaur.

Unsupported Theory 2:  Llyra and Ghaur somehow grab Storm from Nanny before she is reduced to child size, and Nanny gets her back after FF @22.

Unsupported Theory 3:  Llyra and Ghaur somehow grab Storm after she escapes from Nanny, restore her to adulthood, and she is somehow returned to a childlike state afterwards.

Again, Im not proposing any of these as fact, (It's really not our place to make up facts.) rather Im asking for help to resolve a sticky chronology problem.

Please help me out, so I can sleep at nights. :)

David Hall

			*	*	*

Re: New Mutants/X-Factor/Atlantis Attacks
Posted by Andy Holcombe on September 21, 2003 at 22:30:27:
In Reply to: Re: New Mutants/X-Factor/Atlantis Attacks
posted by David Hall on August 27, 2003 at 12:55:52:

> I have been looking into this problem and have discovered the following:

> There is a problem with the listings for Atlantis Attacks 

Here's what I posted some time ago when I was dealing with this apparent incompatibility:

New Mutants in Atlantis Attacks and Acts of Vengeance
Posted by Andy Holcombe on October 15, 2001 at 02:40:19:

I've been having problems getting Atlantis Attacks and Acts of Vengeance to work with each other in regards to the chronologies of all of the players.

The major problem was the New Mutants.  The return of the New Mutants from Asgard in New Mutants #87 leads into New Mutants Annual #5 which is in the middle of Atlantis Attacks.  Running concurrently is the storyline in which Rusty Collins and Skids Belvins are fighting Freedom Force, the Vulture, Freedom Force, and getting kidnapped by the Mutant Liberation Force.  The Fight with the Vulture is part of Loki's Acts of Vengeance (it's on his or one of his minions orders that the Tinkerer rebuild's the Vulture's wings).  Having Atlantis Attacks running simultaneously with the Acts of Vengeance caused all sorts of problems with the Avengers (meeting in a sunken Hydrobase in Avengers West Coast Annual #4) and Spider-Man (not using his Captain Universe powers against the Atlanteans in Web of Spider-Man Annual #5). I finally hit on the idea that the New Mutants storylines where not running concurrently as they were presented.  Rather the New Mutants returned from Asgard and fought the Atlanteans as we were shown.  After the Acts of Vengeance are going on (and Destiny and Stonewall are killed by the Reavers), the Rusty and Skids story picks up in New Mutants #83-87.  This chronology also works with the idea that Incredible Hulk #368 was Freedom Force's first real mission after Muir Island.

This reasoning can also be used with the Loki/Apocalypse meeting in X-Factor #49 and 50/2.

This does move X-Factor Annual #4 to someplace after Ship's landing in X-Factor #51.  Ship has not returned to Earth until after New Mutants Annual #5.

			*	*	*

Ultimate Universe Chronology
Posted by SLIMER1509 on August 27, 2003 at 16:12:45:

Further down on the list, Jimmy Flowers posted an excellent chronology for the Ultimate Universe.  I was just wondering if there had been any updates to it done by him or anyone else to accommodate recent issues in the Ultimate Universe.

			*	*	*

Re: Ultimate Universe Chronology
Posted by Jimmy Flowers on August 30, 2003 at 13:35:48:
In Reply to: Ultimate Universe Chronology
posted by SLIMER1509 on August 27, 2003 at 16:12:45:

No updates yet. But I will get to it. Probably in a month or so.

			*	*	*

Cap & Spidey chronos in Marvel Fanfare (v.1) #31-32
Posted by RLG on August 27, 2003 at 19:58:28:

  The Beast, Iceman, and Angel's appearances in Marvel Fanfare #32 seem to be accurate:

BEAST, ICEMAN, & ANGEL
IM@ 8
ASM 282
M/FAN 32
XF 8

  That being the case, then this two-part story (starting with M/FAN #31) occurs before the Mutant Massacre (see - XF #8-11, UX #209-213, THOR #373-374, PP #27, & DD #238.)  It also, then must take place before the AV@ #15 & WCA@ #1 crossover, since the appearance of Freedom Force in those annuals occurs AFTER their battle against X-Factor in XF #8.

  With this info, I believe that the current placement of Spider-Man in M/FAN #32 as occuring after WOSM #30 and before PPTSS #127 is wrong.  M/FAN #32 must at the very least occur before Spidey's appearance in Power Pack #29.  Here is my revised chrono for him:

SPIDER-MAN
ASM 282
**M/FAN 32
M/FAN 42

  Captain America's chrono for M/FAN #31-32 also has problems.  It is placed after FF #306 and before CA #332.  Again, the M/FAN two-parter occurs before the Mutant Massace and the Avengers/WCA annuals crossover.  Here is my revised chrono for Cap:

CAPTAIN AMERICA
A 272
**M/FAN 31
**M/FAN 32
A@ 15
WCA@ 1

 (However, Cap IS seen in the Avengers Mansion at midnight on page 22, M/FAN #32, which suggests he has not moved out yet; he does in CA #318.  His appearance in the mansion could indicate pushing the M/FAN #31 & 32 entries further back in his chrono than in my revision.)

  One other related matter, Iron Man's (who is not in either M/FAN #31 or #32) chrono has him in the Avengers/WCA annual crossover, then Iron Man Annual #8.  This does not concur with the Beast's appearances in IM@ #8 and WCA@ #1, which I believe to be accurate.  New chrono for Iron Man:

IRON MAN 
IM@ 8
AV@ 15
WCA@ 1

  There is also some questions of the Human Torch's appearance placement in M/FAN #32, but I will have address it later.

- RLG

			*	*	*

complete Ghost Rider and/or Midnight Sons info?
Posted by Kman00001 on August 27, 2003 at 21:52:40:

I was putting my Midnight Sons books into chronological order today and came here (since this is my go-to site) but the listing only goes up to issue 32, for the most part.

All I really need is some kind of chronology for:
Blaze: Legacy of Blood
Blaze (ongoing)
Ghost Rider
Ghost Rider: Crossroads

However, any info on these books would be great as well
Darkhold
Morbius
Nightstalkers

			*	*	*

Re: complete Ghost Rider and/or Midnight Sons info?
Posted by TiGG on September 08, 2003 at 08:55:26:
In Reply to: complete Ghost Rider and/or Midnight Sons info?
posted by Kman00001 on August 27, 2003 at 21:52:40:

I'm in the process of doing the same thing.  I have all of the midnight sons titles now and putting them in order is going to be inderesting.  I'm in the process of finding all of Ghost Rider's appearances which won't be as fun.  This site rocks though.  I hope I find some Ghost Rider Updates soon.

Any help from anyone would be excellent

			*	*	*

SIF...SIGYN...SIKORSKY
Posted by Arthur Stein on August 29, 2003 at 14:16:47:

new entries marked **

SIF
**T 403/2
**T@ 5
JIM 102/2
**T@14/3
JIM 1

SIGYN
**T@  14/3
T 483-FB

SIKORSKY
UX 161
**UX 166
XCAL 116-FB

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#114

			*	*	*

Gambit+gap
Posted by Al Savage on August 31, 2003 at 08:10:09:

I noticed a couple of posts on the board mentioned that the closing the gap page isn't 100% up to date. With that in mind I just wanted to check if the following are still needed, as I have the complete Gambit vol3: 
GAM3 #8
GAM3 #9
GAM3 #10
GAM3 #15
GAM3 #16
GAM3 #18

Also, just a consideration on the point of The Witness (Correct me if I'm off mark anywhere, I still need to get ahold of Gambit&Bishop, just been going off what I've been able to dig up from people who have read it), his timeline isn't guaranteed to exist (Indeed, I don't think the original one he was in does any more, does it?), however as he appears to be the future Gambit, then his subsequent appearances, and Gambit's encounter with the New Son implies that whatever changes may occur to the future, when/if (Are his powers capable of reaching that point any more?) he masters his powers, he would be immune to changes to the timeline, existing outside of it. This implies a guarantee that this future Gambit would ALWAYS be the same, no matter how the future changes, and so Witness' timeline would therefore be an extension of Gambit's. 

That said, we haven't had any 100% proof, only the implication that the two Red-eyed Remy Lebeau characters with similar abilities are the same individual. As I said before, feel free to correct me anywhere I may have missed.

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit+gap
Posted by Michel on August 31, 2003 at 08:44:48:
In Reply to: Gambit+gap
posted by Al Savage on August 31, 2003 at 08:10:09:

> I noticed a couple of posts on the board mentioned that the closing the gap page isn't 100% up to date. With that in mind I just wanted to check if the following are still needed, as I have the complete Gambit vol3: 
> GAM3 #8
> GAM3 #9
> GAM3 #10
> GAM3 #15
> GAM3 #16
> GAM3 #18

I've just indexed them some days ago (and not yet sent to Russ) but a second analysis could prove useful, they're not easy issues with flashbacks in the pass and in the future, especially #10 and #16.

I besides can't place the 1943 sequence in #10 with Strucker and Sergeant Fury and his Howling Commandos.

Issue #15 appears in the "Closing The Gap" page but is already indexed in the MCP.

Michel

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit+gap
Posted by Al Savage on August 31, 2003 at 09:07:46:
In Reply to: Re: Gambit+gap
posted by Michel on August 31, 2003 at 08:44:48:

Thanks, I'll get on it- second opinions never hurt, which is more than can be said for the momentary princess and its effect on several of my friends' heads....

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit+gap
Posted by Jeph! on August 31, 2003 at 10:47:21:
In Reply to: Gambit+gap
posted by Al Savage on August 31, 2003 at 08:10:09:

> I just wanted to check if the following are still needed

Well, I *was* going to tackle them -- but I've been saying that for a while now, so you folks go ahead.

> Also, just a consideration on the point of The Witness...

Actually, the "Gambit & Bishop" series told us that the Witness is NOT Remy LeBeau, and never has been.  He's just another red-eyed mutant Cajun who happens to be "cross-temporal"; that is, existing in all times simultaneously and able to see all.  Apparently Gambit first met him when he was just a young boy...

Yeah, I know this goes against every other Witness appearance, but it's fairly solid -- we see Gambit and the Witness together in the same room, in the present day.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit+gap
Posted by Al Savage on August 31, 2003 at 10:53:22:
In Reply to: Re: Gambit+gap
posted by Jeph! on August 31, 2003 at 10:47:21:

" just another red-eyed mutant Cajun who happens to be "cross-temporal" " I see... A lot of them wandering around, are there? That explains everything... ;)

I just wish they'd give us another Gambit series to tie up a few of his loose ends... 

Then again, this is Marvel- famous for leaving us hanging on till we're old enough to look like the Witness... And we love 'em for it.

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit+gap
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on September 01, 2003 at 08:55:18:
In Reply to: Re: Gambit+gap
posted by Jeph! on August 31, 2003 at 10:47:21:

> Actually, the "Gambit & Bishop" series told us that the Witness is NOT Remy LeBeau, and never has been.

Does it do that, actually?  I remember the scene being fairly ambiguous, and the Witness hasn't exactly been the most reliable chap, either.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit+gap
Posted by Al Savage on September 01, 2003 at 09:54:08:
In Reply to: Re: Gambit+gap
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on September 01, 2003 at 08:55:18:

Indeed, from what I've heard (I hope to get my hands on the G&B series at a comic mart this saturday) the series actually contradicts itself on the question of if they're the same individual.

> Yeah, I know this goes against every other Witness appearance, but it's fairly solid -- we see Gambit and the Witness together in the same room, in the present day.

Erm... Yeah, 'cause someone not bound by the laws of time can't just, say, go back and meet himself?

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit+gap
Posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 13:32:24:
In Reply to: Re: Gambit+gap
posted by Al Savage on September 01, 2003 at 09:54:08:

> > we see Gambit and the Witness together in the same room, in the present day.

> Erm... Yeah, 'cause someone not bound by the laws of time can't just, say, go back and meet himself?

Well, okay, so if you agree that the Witness is "trans-temporal", and you're still saying that he's Gambit, then you're saying that Gambit is trans-temporal too.  Meaning, his mutant ability is to be everywhere at once.

We've seen no evidence of this.  Gambit's mutant ability to manipulate kinetic energy allowed him a BRIEF burst of time travel, yes, but only in one direction.

For the record, the Witness that appeared in G&B was much younger than the wizened Witness we've seen in Bishop's future time -- which doesn't indicate that he moved back in time and hung out in the G&B series.  It instead indicates that he appears here FIRST, technically, and lives on into Bishop's future -- that he doesn't TRAVEL through time, but instead SEES through it -- aging at a constant rate as does everyone else.

Finally, yes, the Witness' name was "LeBeau" in UXM #287, but -- Clan LeBeau is a LARGE New Orleans family -- it's possible that the Witness, already shown to be a Cajun, is simply related to Gambit's adoptive family.

Al: "Explain his red eyes, then."

Jeph: "uh ... he drinks too much?"

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit+gap
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on September 01, 2003 at 14:30:17:
In Reply to: Re: Gambit+gap
posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 13:32:24:

> Finally, yes, the Witness' name was "LeBeau" in UXM #287, but -- Clan LeBeau is a LARGE New Orleans family -- it's possible that the Witness, already shown to be a Cajun, is simply related to Gambit's adoptive family.

Could be, but, personally, I don't think there's enough evidence for either version to be carved in stone.

The Witness could be a version of Gambit, or he could be someone else, but the evidence for either case is ambiguous, at best.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit+gap
Posted by Al Savage on September 01, 2003 at 16:30:58:
In Reply to: Re: Gambit+gap
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on September 01, 2003 at 14:30:17:

I'd say the jury's definitely still out. 

>The Witness could be a version of Gambit, or he could be someone else, but the evidence for either case is ambiguous, at best.

Hell, he could be Gambit's son/father/both for that matter!

Or of course Gambit could be his own father, now that'd be messed up! (Yeah, so I stole that idea from another story, sue me)

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit+gap
Posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 17:17:56:
In Reply to: Re: Gambit+gap
posted by Al Savage on September 01, 2003 at 16:30:58:

> Or of course Gambit could be his own father, now that'd be messed up! (Yeah, so I stole that idea from another story, sue me)

Hey, Fry on Futurama is his own grandfather, and look at ... him ... okay, bad example.

(But a wonderful, wonderful show.)

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit+gap
Posted by Al Savage on September 01, 2003 at 20:46:45:
In Reply to: Re: Gambit+gap
posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 17:17:56:

> (But a wonderful, wonderful show.)

Amen to that, why oh why did they cancel it?

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit+gap
Posted by Peter Fabricius on September 02, 2003 at 02:05:25:
In Reply to: Re: Gambit+gap
posted by Al Savage on September 01, 2003 at 20:46:45:

> > (But a wonderful, wonderful show.)

> Amen to that, why oh why did they cancel it?

It's a FOX show, they don't need a reason. They also cancelled Firefly.

			*	*	*

Now 100% off-topic!
Posted by Jeph! on September 02, 2003 at 02:55:19:
In Reply to: Re: Gambit+gap
posted by Peter Fabricius on September 02, 2003 at 02:05:25:

> > > (But a wonderful, wonderful show.)

> > Amen to that, why oh why did they cancel [Futurama]?

> It's a FOX show, they don't need a reason. They also cancelled Firefly.

And Family Guy ... sniff!  Truly, gone before its time...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Now 100% off-topic! - w00t!
Posted by Al Savage on September 02, 2003 at 07:09:48:
In Reply to: Now 100% off-topic!
posted by Jeph! on September 02, 2003 at 02:55:19:

http://www.washu.co.uk/misc/offtop.jpg

			*	*	*

Query on chronological order
Posted by Al Savage on August 31, 2003 at 18:58:21:
In Reply to: Gambit+gap
posted by Al Savage on August 31, 2003 at 08:10:09:

Just a quick query, how does this site approach time travel stories? If someone was present at an earlier point in history (Like say... I dunno... Gambit in GAM3 #12-#14) should their appearances be listed in order from their perspective or from the rest of the world's? After all, Le Diable Blanc is an integral part of the Thieves' guild's history, if the events occured in 1891, surely they should be listed in chronological order, right?

The result would be a listing more like this:

GAMBIT/REMY LEBEAU 
GAM3 12
GAM3 13
GAM3 14
GAM3 1-FB
GAM3 19-FB
GAM3 6-FB
GAM3 6
GAM3 23-FB
X 8-FB

Also, does anyone know (I'm collecting the Gambit stories reprinted in W&G and there are a couple of issues left to go) exactly when Sinister's appearance at the end of GAM3 #15 occurs? He's referring to Gambit's power usage hitting 100%, so the most likely times for this to occur are during the battle with New Son in #24 (Which I'm still waiting for) or when he returns to the present between #15 and #16 with the possible alternatives of it occuring when Gambit first faces New Son in the Assassination game Epilogue and their equal powers cancel each other out, or when Gambit is "killed" by Bullseye in #16/17 (Implied in the conversation between Courier and New Son, also in Epilogue)

It would help in figuring exactly when Remy returns to the present.

			*	*	*

Re: Query on chronological order
Posted by Administrator on August 31, 2003 at 19:55:48:
In Reply to: Query on chronological order
posted by Al Savage on August 31, 2003 at 18:58:21:

> Just a quick query, how does this site approach time travel stories? 

The chronologies are listed from the character's perspective.

			*	*	*

Re: Query on chronological order
Posted by Jeph! on August 31, 2003 at 22:57:06:
In Reply to: Query on chronological order
posted by Al Savage on August 31, 2003 at 18:58:21:

> Also, does anyone know ... exactly when Sinister's appearance at the end of GAM3 #15 occurs? He's referring to Gambit's power usage hitting 100%

That's a reference to Gambit pushing his powers to the limit to return to the present, between issues #15 and #16.  So Sinister's appearance there takes place ... well, at the end of #15.  Same general time period as the rest of the issue.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Query on chronological order
Posted by Al Savage on September 01, 2003 at 02:04:06:
In Reply to: Re: Query on chronological order
posted by Administrator on August 31, 2003 at 19:55:48:

> The chronologies are listed from the character's perspective.

Thanks. That'll help.

> That's a reference to Gambit pushing his powers to the limit to return to the present, between issues #15 and #16.  So Sinister's appearance there takes place ... well, at the end of #15.  Same general time period as the rest of the issue.

Thanks to you too, that places Assassination game as beginning about five months after Folding city then, give or take however long it toook Gambit to get to JFK airport.

			*	*	*

Re: Query on chronological order
Posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 03:17:39:
In Reply to: Re: Query on chronological order
posted by Al Savage on September 01, 2003 at 02:04:06:

> that places Assassination game as beginning about five months after Folding city then, give or take however long it toook Gambit to get to JFK airport.

Well now, let me see, from memory:

The X-Men have a six-month gap between UX #380 and X #100.

Gambit #12-14 occur AFTER the start of the Gap, as Gambit is missing in time for many months, and that isn't reflected in the main X-books.  Gambit v3 #16 takes place over "eight weeks", or two months -- and all of "Assassination Game" takes place BEFORE X #100, as Kitty Pryde appears as an X-Man in the wrap-up of "Assassination Game" (GAM3 @'00), and she vanishes in X #100, never to appear in costume or on the team again.

To answer your question about that Sinister scene -- IF it occurs on the same day as the rest of GAM3 #15, then it occurs just over TWO months before the start of "Assassination Game", not five.  And in fact, the whole span of GAM3 #12-20 and Annual 2000 has to occur in less than six months, with GAM3 #16 itself taking up two of those months.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Query on chronological order
Posted by Al Savage on September 01, 2003 at 07:25:58:
In Reply to: Re: Query on chronological order
posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 03:17:39:

> To answer your question about that Sinister scene -- IF it occurs on the same day as the rest of GAM3 #15, then it occurs just over TWO months before the start of "Assassination Game", not five.  

But of course, the frame it occurs in has a nice clear "Three months later" note at the top. So five. This puts GAM3 #16 as likely occuring over the last two months of those six, in #15 Rogue explains to Sekmeht that they've been missing six weeks. Now then, I'd say we can align that to fit snugly in there, wouldn't you?

			*	*	*

p.s. -Constrictor
Posted by Al Savage on September 01, 2003 at 07:32:19:
In Reply to: Re: Query on chronological order
posted by Al Savage on September 01, 2003 at 07:25:58:

p.s.
Anyone know where in Constrictor's timeline GAM3 #16 fits? We have the perfect reference point in that his appearance (in a flashback) is just as Hammer replaces his Adamantium coils with Vibranium ones.

			*	*	*

Re: p.s. -Constrictor
Posted by Sean Curtin on September 02, 2003 at 18:30:26:
In Reply to: p.s. -Constrictor
posted by Al Savage on September 01, 2003 at 07:32:19:

Probably just prior to his Deadpool appearances--IIRC, GAM3 16 has him referring to being "back in action" after losing his coils in GAM3 11.

-- 
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Re: Query on chronological order
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on September 01, 2003 at 08:48:03:
In Reply to: Re: Query on chronological order
posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 03:17:39:

> and all of "Assassination Game" takes place BEFORE X #100, as Kitty Pryde appears as an X-Man in the wrap-up of "Assassination Game" (GAM3 @'00), and she vanishes in X #100, never to appear in costume or on the team again.

I agree that "Assassination Game" and GAMBIT 2000 are most likely occurring in the six month gap, but Kitty does appear with the X-Men -- and in costume -- in X-MEN: DECLASSIFIED #1, which takes place after the X-Men's encounter with the Neo.

So we know that she did in fact return to the team for a brief period between X-MEN #106 and #110 -- it just wasn't mentioned in the "core" titles.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch

			*	*	*

Re: Query on chronological order
Posted by Al Savage on September 01, 2003 at 10:01:48:
In Reply to: Re: Query on chronological order
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on September 01, 2003 at 08:48:03:

A side note on Sinister's appearance at the end of #15- is his reference to Nate hitting a high power consumption referring to an actual published event, or merely artistic license on the part of the writer? Not that it really matters, just wondering...

			*	*	*

Re: Query on chronological order
Posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 13:34:19:
In Reply to: Re: Query on chronological order
posted by Al Savage on September 01, 2003 at 10:01:48:

> A side note on Sinister's appearance at the end of #15- is his reference to Nate hitting a high power consumption referring to an actual published event, or merely artistic license on the part of the writer? Not that it really matters, just wondering...

Probably artistic license, but -- what was Nate even DOING in the middle of the six-month gap?  Between X-Man #70 and 63 ... hmm.  Was he even on our earth?  I guess he must have been.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Query on chronological order
Posted by Al Savage on September 01, 2003 at 16:25:36:
In Reply to: Re: Query on chronological order
posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 13:34:19:

Artistic license it is.

			*	*	*

X-Men: Declassified.
Posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 13:39:25:
In Reply to: Re: Query on chronological order
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on September 01, 2003 at 08:48:03:

> I agree that "Assassination Game" and GAMBIT 2000 are most likely occurring in the six month gap

Good, because:

> but Kitty does appear with the X-Men -- and in costume -- in X-MEN: DECLASSIFIED #1, which takes place after the X-Men's encounter with the Neo.

> So we know that she did in fact return to the team for a brief period between X-MEN #106 and #110 -- it just wasn't mentioned in the "core" titles.

Actually, Uncanny #389 makes it very clear that Kitty HADN'T returned yet ... Wolverine and Rogue search her room for clues, and Rogue comments that *when Kitty went up to the space platform* (X #100), it was like she knew she would disappear.  (A reference to the Destiny's Diaries subplot.)

Also, Colossus' death in UX #390 was the final straw for Kitty in terms of participating in the X-Men, so "Declassified" shouldn't occur after that point.

So, if "Declassified" IS in continuity, it occurs between UX #389-390 -- and, as you say, Kitty's appearance in GAM3 @'00 must occur BEFORE X #100.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: Declassified.
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on September 01, 2003 at 14:36:11:
In Reply to: X-Men: Declassified.
posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 13:39:25:

> Actually, Uncanny #389 makes it very clear that Kitty HADN'T returned yet ... Wolverine and Rogue search her room for clues, and Rogue comments that *when Kitty went up to the space platform* (X #100), it was like she knew she would disappear.

Ah, I didn't remember that scene.  I see no reason why DECLASSIFIED should not be in continuity, so I guess it must be placed between UNCANNY X-MEN #389 and #390, then.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch

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Re: X-Men: Declassified.
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 01, 2003 at 15:05:16:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: Declassified.
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on September 01, 2003 at 14:36:11:

Can anyone provide a short recap of X-Men: Declassified, including a character list and temporal references?  Thanks.

--Paul

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Re: X-Men: Declassified.
Posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 15:24:38:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: Declassified.
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 01, 2003 at 15:05:16:

Easy enough.

One night, with a full moon.  Gambit, Shadowcat and Wolverine, all wearing their Revolution costumes, break into a military base to retrieve the files stolen from Cerebro by Bastion in X #65.  While there, Bastion's head (last seen in the Warlock v4 series, now called "Template") generates a bunch of holgrams, factual Cerebro files mixed with phony "flashback" sequences, to confuse the intruding X-Men.

X #100 is noted as "a few weeks back".  Kitty reacts to Colossus' file without crying, so this issue takes place before his death in UX #390 -- and as pointed out earlier, it has to be after UX #389, since Kitty was missing for the whole period of time between X #100 and UX #389.  I don't know if the "few weeks" reference can work in that scenario, but it pretty much has to -- there are no other gaps for this issue to occur in.

Gambit, Shadowcat, Wolverine and Bastion/Template are the only real characters to appear -- and since none of Bastion's flashbacks have been substantiated elsewhere, and it's likely that they never will be, it's safe to say that they're ALL lies.

-Jeph!

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Re: X-Men: Declassified.
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 01, 2003 at 20:07:19:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: Declassified.
posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 15:24:38:

> > Can anyone provide a short recap of X-Men: Declassified, including a character list and temporal references?

> Easy enough.

> One night, with a full moon.  Gambit, Shadowcat and Wolverine, all wearing their Revolution costumes, break into a military base to retrieve the files stolen from Cerebro by Bastion in X #65.  While there, Bastion's head (last seen in the Warlock v4 series, now called "Template") generates a bunch of holgrams, factual Cerebro files mixed with phony "flashback" sequences, to confuse the intruding X-Men.

> X #100 is noted as "a few weeks back".  Kitty reacts to Colossus' file without crying, so this issue takes place before his death in UX #390 -- and as pointed out earlier, it has to be after UX #389, since Kitty was missing for the whole period of time between X #100 and UX #389.  I don't know if the "few weeks" reference can work in that scenario, but it pretty much has to -- there are no other gaps for this issue to occur in.

By my reckoning, if Declassified occurs on a night with a full moon between UX 389 and 390, then it's about December 6, five months (not a few weeks) after the date I placed X 100.  Drat.

Thanks for the synposis, Jeph.  X:D is now on the calendar.

--Paul

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Re: X-Men: Declassified.
Posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 20:33:23:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: Declassified.
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 01, 2003 at 20:07:19:

> if Declassified occurs on a night with a full moon between UX 389 and 390, then it's about December 6, five months (not a few weeks) after the date I placed X 100.  Drat.

Oh well -- if there's one thing I've learned about temporla references, it's that they're always wrong.  ;-)

> Thanks for the synposis, Jeph.

Not a problem!

-Jeph!

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To Resident X-Men Expert Jeph!
Posted by Jason M. Doty on August 31, 2003 at 19:18:42:

I've been trying to put together my own X-Men read list by comparing Fandom Chronolgy's website, the MCP, and the message board. My question has to do with X-Men: The Hidden Years.Do all the Hidden Years come prior to all the appearances in various books before Giant Size X-Men no.1. The only ones I'm really questioning are Amazing Spider-man no.92 and Incredible Hulk no.150. Also I noticed that you sent your unfinished work on the gap between UX 353 and maximum security to another interested source. Is their anyway for me to get a copy? My e-mail is jasondoty@mchsi.com. Thanks, Jason 

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Re: To Resident X-Men Expert Jeph!
Posted by Administrator on August 31, 2003 at 19:59:12:
In Reply to: To Resident X-Men Expert Jeph!
posted by Jason M. Doty on August 31, 2003 at 19:18:42:

> I've been trying to put together my own X-Men read list by comparing Fandom Chronolgy's website, the MCP, and the message board. My question has to do with X-Men: The Hidden Years.Do all the Hidden Years come prior to all the appearances in various books before Giant Size X-Men no.1. The only ones I'm really questioning are Amazing Spider-man no.92 and Incredible Hulk no.150. 

Your question is already answered on the Project.

Check the chronologies for Iceman, Havok, and Polaris.

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Re: To Resident X-Men Expert Jeph!
Posted by Jeph! on August 31, 2003 at 22:55:31:
In Reply to: To Resident X-Men Expert Jeph!
posted by Jason M. Doty on August 31, 2003 at 19:18:42:

As Russ has already answered your first question...

> Also I noticed that you sent your unfinished work on the gap between UX 353 and maximum security to another interested source. Is their anyway for me to get a copy? My e-mail is jasondoty@mchsi.com.

Yep -- I'll send a copy along to you.

'Course, as soon as Pal B. gives me the go-ahead, it'll be up on here for all the world to see anyway...

-Jeph!

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Torch's chronology mixed up with the Hulk's
Posted by RLG on August 31, 2003 at 20:57:50:

  The Hulk's chronology has invaded the Human Torch's in three different spots.  I don't know if it is because both characters begin with the letter "H", or what.

(Hulk appearances are highlighted with "**")

HUMAN TORCH
-Spot #1-
SUB-M2 3
** H2 308
** H2 309
M/TU 147

-Spot #2-
FF 277
** M/F 20 - Thing & Hulk "team-up"
** M/F 21 - see above
TG 23

-Spot #3-
FF 319 ~ SS3 16
** H2 348
** M/CP 6/4
** WOSM 44
FF 320 

  On a related note, although these are incorrect for the Torch, can it be assumed that H2 348, M/CP 6/4, & WOSM 44 CHRONOLOGICALLY take place beween FF 319 and 320?

- RLG

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Invisible Woman
Posted by RLG on August 31, 2003 at 21:11:45:

  The Invisible Woman is not in Marvel Team-Up #99.

- RLG   

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Re: Invisible Woman
Posted by Jhaeman on September 01, 2003 at 14:36:23:
In Reply to: Invisible Woman
posted by RLG on August 31, 2003 at 21:11:45:

Yeah she is, you just can't see her.

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Re: Invisible Woman
Posted by RLG on September 01, 2003 at 22:23:27:
In Reply to: Re: Invisible Woman
posted by Jhaeman on September 01, 2003 at 14:36:23:

HA HA! That reminds me of the joke about Superman, Wonder Woman, AND the Invisible Man....

  But seriously, my basis for this my own reading of the issue and the Official Marvel Index for Marvel Team-Up (issue #6, I think.)

- RLG
