Chronology (or calendar) aesthetics question...
Posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 03:10:34:

I've recently been building a calendar/chronology map for the "Operation: Zero Tolerance" crossover, and I'm finding that I've become unheathily preoccupied with the number of days that pass over the course of the various books.  (Thanks, Bourcier.  ::grumble:: )

But before I post the map, I have a question for all you chronologers about how you mentally deal with "meanwhile" pages, subplot pages, and other cut-away-and-cut-back scenes.

For example -- say I'm writing up a Spider-Man comic.  It begins with Spidey web-swinging, following a villain's trail -- we cut to a scene of Mary Jane dancing at a nightclub -- cut to Aunt May dusting old photos -- cut to a mysterious, plotting villain -- cut back to Spider-Man, hot on the villain's trail.

The way I see it, unless the book tells me differently, I assume that all those scenes happened IN THAT ORDER -- that is, Aunt May was dusting photos AT THE SAME TIME as Spidey was chasing the villain, not earlier in the day.  MJ's club scene occurs, on a clock, BEFORE Aunt May dusts the photos, and May dusts BEFORE the villain plots.

Unless it's otherwise specified in the comic, I tend to try to keep the issue occuring as it was presented -- linearly.  Even if there's no character overlap, I like to keep things simple like that -- that way, for example, if MJ comments that it's a Tuesday, I'd be able to assume that the Spidey, May, and villain scenes are all occuring on that same Tuesday.

Now, there are exceptions.  Here, have some from my OZT map...

X-Force #67-68 gives time notations in captions through both issues.  #67 wraps up with X-Force facing Prime Sentinels at 11:55 pm, and the final page shows us Caliban asleep at the mansion at 2:45am.  X-Force #68, however, opens with X-Force fighting the Sentinels, at a given time of 12:05am.  Therefore the final page of XFO #67 (2:45am) actually comes AFTER the opening page of XFO #68 (12:05am).

Another example, one that's actually bothering me, can be found in Gen-X #29-31.  The issues contain a main story about Gen X in Los Angeles, and a running subplot about Jubilee in the Hulkbuster base.  Now, based on evidence from Wolverine #115-118, Jubilee is freed from the base in Gen X #31, ONE day after X #65.  However, from a line of dialogue in Gen X #29, it looks like they're in LA, fighting off Prime Sentinels, TWO days after X #65.

This either means that the Jubilee subplot does NOT run concurrent to the Gen X main story, even though it hops back and forth as in my Spider-Man example above -- or that the single line of dialogue is in error, and Gen X is fighting Prime Sentinels ONE day after X #65 and AT THE SAME TIME as Jubilee is freed from the Hulkbuster base -- which is how the issue reads if you're not looking out for temporal references.

I'd prefer to keep the pages occuring in order as much as humanly possible, aesthetically -- but to do that, I sacrifice a small portion of accuracy in favor of simplicity.

(Then again, that single line of dialogue could be WRONG -- lots of references have had to be ignored or rationalized off over the fine-toothed analysis of Marvel's 40 year history -- what's one more?  An argument could be made that the Gen X/Sentinel battle has to occur before OZT is shut down, and THAT occurs TWO days after X #65, early in the morning ... so the battle DOES have to occur the previous day, ONE day after X #65.  Bingo, the single line of dialogue is now incorrect.)

I've had to juggle around more inter-issue segments than I'm comfortable with to make this calendar work, and I'm reluctant to shift one more -- but I thought I'd get everyone's opinion: when you come across scenes of this nature, parallel story tracks and "meanwhile" scenes ... how do you think of them?  Do you assume, unless proven otherwise, that they're occuring "at the same time" as the rest of the issue?

Input would be wonderful ... and for those who want to see my Gen-X example explained out further, I'll be posting the full OZT map/calendar soon.

-Jeph!

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Re: Chronology (or calendar) aesthetics question...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 01, 2003 at 03:56:35:
In Reply to: Chronology (or calendar) aesthetics question...
posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 03:10:34:

>when you come across scenes of this nature, parallel story tracks and "meanwhile" scenes ... how do you think of them?  Do you assume, unless proven otherwise, that they're occuring "at the same time" as the rest of the issue?

My view would be that there's a strong presumption that the scenes take place in the order shown.  But if they need to take place out of order so as to comply with the internal time references, I have no difficulty with that; it just means that the writer has chosen to arrange the scenes slightly out of order to improve the flow of the story.

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Re: Chronology (or calendar) aesthetics question...
Posted by Al Savage on September 01, 2003 at 08:15:43:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology (or calendar) aesthetics question...
posted by Paul O'Brien on September 01, 2003 at 03:56:35:

Yeah, I go on the assumption that they're occurring in that order unless I'm led to believe otherwise. If a scene is later revealed to have been a flashback, occurring simultaneously, etc. It's easy enough to compensate. Actually doing an in-depth analysis of every single frame is simply impractical.

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Re: Chronology (or calendar) aesthetics question...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 01, 2003 at 14:16:45:
In Reply to: Chronology (or calendar) aesthetics question...
posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 03:10:34:

> I've recently been building a calendar/chronology map for the "Operation: Zero Tolerance" crossover, and I'm finding that I've become unheathily preoccupied with the number of days that pass over the course of the various books.  (Thanks, Bourcier.  ::grumble:: )

You're entirely welcome ;)

> when you come across scenes of this nature, parallel story tracks and "meanwhile" scenes ... how do you think of them?  Do you assume, unless proven otherwise, that they're occuring "at the same time" as the rest of the issue?

I like to think of scenes in a single comic occurring in order, and on the same day (given the nature of Marvel Time, I don't like to expand the time frame of a story any more than necessary) UNLESS I am given reliable temporal references that strongly suggest otherwise.  These references may be artistic (a sunrise following a night scene suggests the next day) or textual (dialog, narrative text, etc.).  To me, the time notations you mention are strong, reliable temporal references.  Obviously the writer was conveying his concept of how the story was unfolding by using these time references, even though he didn't present the scenes in chronological order.

Occasionally, I have had to separate a subplot from an unconnected main story because of temporal references.  I find it annoying to do so, but it usually "reads" much better to do this in the greater scheme of things.

> Input would be wonderful ... and for those who want to see my Gen-X example explained out further, I'll be posting the full OZT map/calendar soon.

I'm looking forward to it!

--Paul 
(working on continual major revision of the #$%!Spider-Man calendar -- ASM2 56 didn't help, then ASM2 57 threw a big wrench into everything.  Agh!)

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Re: Chronology (or calendar) aesthetics question...
Posted by SKleefeld@one.net on September 02, 2003 at 15:52:02:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology (or calendar) aesthetics question...
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 01, 2003 at 14:16:45:

> > when you come across scenes of this nature, parallel story tracks and "meanwhile" scenes ... how do you think of them?  Do you assume, unless proven otherwise, that they're occuring "at the same time" as the rest of the issue?

> I like to think of scenes in a single comic occurring in order, and on the same day (given the nature of Marvel Time, I don't like to expand the time frame of a story any more than necessary) UNLESS I am given reliable temporal references that strongly suggest otherwise.  These references may be artistic (a sunrise following a night scene suggests the next day) or textual (dialog, narrative text, etc.).  To me, the time notations you mention are strong, reliable temporal references.  Obviously the writer was conveying his concept of how the story was unfolding by using these time references, even though he didn't present the scenes in chronological order.

Alternatively, the clock could've stopped or simply be mis-set. I mean, unless we know with 100% certainty that we're looking at the exact same clock AND we know from panel-to-panel transitions that it's functioning properly, there's no need to allow the appearance of a timepiece to wreck havoc on trying to make sense out of continuity.

Sure, I would normally assume that all clocks are set and functioning properly, but if it provides a problem with the specific chronology, it's easy to discount it without even resorting to "artistic interpretation" or the like. There are three clocks in my kitchen and none of them display the exact same time.

-- Sean, still in favor of a non-really-so-literal chronologizing effort  :)

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Re: Chronology (or calendar) aesthetics question...
Posted by Jeph! on September 02, 2003 at 15:58:46:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology (or calendar) aesthetics question...
posted by SKleefeld@one.net on September 02, 2003 at 15:52:02:

Wow, where've you been, guy?  How go the classes and exams and stuff?

> Alternatively, the clock could've stopped or simply be mis-set. I mean, unless we know with 100% certainty that we're looking at the exact same clock AND we know from panel-to-panel transitions that it's functioning properly, there's no need to allow the appearance of a timepiece to wreck havoc on trying to make sense out of continuity.

What if it's the omniscient narrator that's providing the time, in captions throughout the book?  That's how it was happening in the X-Force example I mentioned...

> There are three clocks in my kitchen and none of them display the exact same time.

Heh.  Me too.  Sigh.

> -- Sean, still in favor of a non-really-so-literal chronologizing effort  :)

Well, stick around -- I'm about to post a big old map of the OZT crossover, and I'd love to hear your not-so-literal feedback on it!

-Jeph!

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Re: Chronology (or calendar) aesthetics question...
Posted by SKleefeld on September 03, 2003 at 09:06:34:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology (or calendar) aesthetics question...
posted by Jeph! on September 02, 2003 at 15:58:46:

> Wow, where've you been, guy?  How go the classes and exams and stuff?

As usual, I've got way the heck too many things going on. 

Classes/finals ended up going pretty well in the end. Got an "A" and a "B" in my two classes, one of which was just absolutely a pain in the rump to beat into my skull!

> > Alternatively, the clock could've stopped or simply be mis-set. I mean, unless we know with 100% certainty that we're looking at the exact same clock AND we know from panel-to-panel transitions that it's functioning properly, there's no need to allow the appearance of a timepiece to wreck havoc on trying to make sense out of continuity.

> What if it's the omniscient narrator that's providing the time, in captions throughout the book?  That's how it was happening in the X-Force example I mentioned...

The narrator's clock is wrong?  

In all seriousness, that might be the answer we have to go with in some cases. If events depicted in the comic run contrary to the time indicators in captions, we have to assume that the captions are wrong.

For example...

Caption -- 5:35 p.m.
Scene -- Spider-Man sees the Shocker robbing a bank.

Scenes -- Spider-Man swings down and clocks Shocker. The two start sparring and Spider-Man spends several panels hopping about taunting Shocker with bad puns.

Caption -- Minutes later...

Scene -- The police show up and arrest Shocker.

Caption -- 5:37 p.m.

Scene -- Spider-Man swings off to buy Aunt May some tuna salad at the local deli.

At face value, that's fine, but what if Spider-Man's dialogue alone cannot possibly be said in under one minute?  That would mean that at least one of the captions is incorrect, and the writer didn't really think too much about the timing of the scene. 

My point is that writers aren't always the stickler for details that we are, and they are fallible. Captions can be a useful guide for temporal placement of events, but I maintain that the stories themselves are the driving factor. The overall story outweighs all else in the face of equally-weighted, contradictory elements.

So, captions trump drawn clocks. Clocks trump other temporal indicators (i.e phases of the moon). Temporal indicators trump dialogue. But the overall story trumps everything.

> > -- Sean, still in favor of a non-really-so-literal chronologizing effort  :)

> Well, stick around -- I'm about to post a big old map of the OZT crossover, and I'd love to hear your not-so-literal feedback on it!

I'd love to take a look at it, but I'm probably not the best person to criticize any X-Men centered chronology. I only follow their books sporadically. I've got the TPB of the story, and a handful of random issues from around that time, but it's certainly not a complete look at it.

That's why I haven't tried touching "Inferno" either!

-- Sean

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Re: Chronology (or calendar) aesthetics question...
Posted by Al Savage on September 04, 2003 at 12:01:32:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology (or calendar) aesthetics question...
posted by SKleefeld on September 03, 2003 at 09:06:34:

>So, captions trump drawn clocks. Clocks trump other temporal indicators (i.e phases of the moon). Temporal indicators trump dialogue. But the overall story trumps everything.

No better way of putting it.

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ASM2 57 -- Thor's going to be okay
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 01, 2003 at 15:18:28:

Imagine my chagrin when I saw Thor appear in ASM2 57 in his classic costume.  My first reaction was to try to fit the whole Spidey saga up to now before T2 45, the issue in which we no longer see the classic costume.  But try as I might, there were just too many problems with this approach.

Then I noticed that Thor appears on TV in PPSM2 53 during the Asgard-over-Manhattan storyline (in his regal duds, noted as watching over the U.S.).  In figuring Spidey's chronology, PPSM2 53 (a pre-M.J. return story) must occur before ASM2 57 (a post-M.J. return story).

Thus, ASM2 57 must occur after the resolution of the current Thor storyline.  After the Reigning, Thor will shave, redon his classic duds, and reconcile with the world somehow.  Or maybe the Thor in ASM2 57 is someone different from the despot we're seeing in current Thor issues?  Ah, clues, chronology, and conjecture...

--Paul
(Actually thinking a temporal restart is in the offing in Thor...)

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Re: ASM2 57 -- Thor's going to be okay
Posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 15:27:03:
In Reply to: ASM2 57 -- Thor's going to be okay
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 01, 2003 at 15:18:28:

> (Actually thinking a temporal restart is in the offing in Thor...)

Based on the way the story's going, I'd have to agree.  Didn't the last issue end with the destruction of Manhattan and Asgard?

I smell a large reboot coming.  But since the current Thor arc takes place in the future, it'll be a long time before we have the answer to that.  Damn you, decompressed storytelling!

-Jeph!

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Re: ASM2 57 -- Thor's going to be okay
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 01, 2003 at 19:55:17:
In Reply to: Re: ASM2 57 -- Thor's going to be okay
posted by Jeph! on September 01, 2003 at 15:27:03:

> > (Actually thinking a temporal restart is in the offing in Thor...)

> Based on the way the story's going, I'd have to agree.  Didn't the last issue end with the destruction of Manhattan and Asgard?

> I smell a large reboot coming.  But since the current Thor arc takes place in the future, it'll be a long time before we have the answer to that.  Damn you, decompressed storytelling!

I'm thinking that, with Zarrko around, we're definitely looking at a possible time-travel solution to put things right.

Theory: Zarrko shows Thor the error of his ways, and having seen how things turn out, Thor allows Zarrko to send him back in time to stop his former self from going down the same road before all the mayhem of the recent issue.  The Reigning storyline will be consigned to an alternate future, but the mainstream MU does not come to the dire end, with Asgard and Manhattan destroyed.  Thor will remove Asgard from earth and, fearing the Odinpower, will probably step down as Lord of Asgard.  Having learned another lesson in humility, Thor will resume his old costume and role as superhero.  The series will then focus on Earth's reconciliation with Thor for the trouble he had caused up to the point of divergence.

The question is: how far back will Thor go?  In the interest of keeping stories in other titles canon, not far -- probably just prior to T2 66.  Remember that in A3 63, Gyrich is trying to talk the U.N. out of going to war with Asgard.  This will probably remain canon.

If all this comes to pass, Thor's chronology will make for an interesting entry in the MCP.

Anyway, I'm going to place ASM2 57 on (and probably A3 64 on) after the resolution of the Reigning, whenever the heck that will be.

--Paul

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Re: ASM2 57 -- Warning FF #500 spoiler
Posted by Michel on September 02, 2003 at 05:59:25:
In Reply to: Re: ASM2 57 -- Thor's going to be okay
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 01, 2003 at 19:55:17:

We also have a problem with Red's face, which is unscarred. We could assume this issue of Amazing Spider-Man takes place before the Unthinkable arc, but if it seems it's also before a future issue of Thor, won't that be a problem ? Another possibility is that Reed will heal soon, too.

Michel

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Re: ASM2 57 -- Warning FF #500 spoiler
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 02, 2003 at 06:45:36:
In Reply to: Re: ASM2 57 -- Warning FF #500 spoiler
posted by Michel on September 02, 2003 at 05:59:25:

> We also have a problem with Red's face, which is unscarred. We could assume this issue of Amazing Spider-Man takes place before the Unthinkable arc, but if it seems it's also before a future issue of Thor, won't that be a problem ? Another possibility is that Reed will heal soon, too.

Good point.  Only time will tell if ASM2 57 occurs before the Unthinkable storyline (which is possible, calendar-wise) or after Reed heals.

--Paul

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Another thought: Spidey's birthday...
Posted by Kevin  on September 15, 2003 at 12:45:41:
In Reply to: Re: ASM2 57 -- Warning FF #500 spoiler
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 02, 2003 at 06:45:36:

> > We also have a problem with Red's face, which is unscarred. We could assume this issue of Amazing Spider-Man takes place before the Unthinkable arc, but if it seems it's also before a future issue of Thor, won't that be a problem ? Another possibility is that Reed will heal soon, too.

> Good point.  Only time will tell if ASM2 57 occurs before the Unthinkable storyline (which is possible, calendar-wise) or after Reed heals.

Sorry if I'm playing catch up, but I haven't had a chance to stop by in a couple weeks...

Anyway, another clue for where to place this story is that, (as I recall, I don't have the issue in front of me) Spidey's birthday is referrenced as just a couple days away.  I believe the birthday will be in ASM 500, (ASM 59, I believe).  Do we have a definative date on a calender for where Spidey's birthday falls?   Peter has had birthday's in the comics in the past, I would like to point out...

One which comes to mind, (unless my memory is playing tricks on me) is the Birthday he had in Spiderman issues 19-24, the Erik Larsen story "Revenge of the Sinister Six"...

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Re: Another thought: Spidey's birthday...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 15, 2003 at 21:23:49:
In Reply to: Another thought: Spidey's birthday...
posted by Kevin  on September 15, 2003 at 12:45:41:

> Anyway, another clue for where to place this story is that, (as I recall, I don't have the issue in front of me) Spidey's birthday is referrenced as just a couple days away.  I believe the birthday will be in ASM 500, (ASM 59, I believe).  Do we have a definative date on a calender for where Spidey's birthday falls?   Peter has had birthday's in the comics in the past, I would like to point out...

> One which comes to mind, (unless my memory is playing tricks on me) is the Birthday he had in Spiderman issues 19-24, the Erik Larsen story "Revenge of the Sinister Six"...

Hey, Kevin, how's it going?

S-M 21 is the only past comic I could find that referenced Peter Parker's birthday.  I haven't settled on calendar placements for that time period, so I can't use that at this point.  We do get another temporal reference in ASM2 57 -- Peter notes that it is getting "closer to summer vacation."  I have a tentative May placement.  (This also makes current Amazing issues close in time to curent New X-Men issues -- see the proposed X-Men calendar, posted separately.)

I've worked on a revised Spidey calendar and await Antonio's reply before posting it for further comment.

--Paul

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Re: ASM2 57 -- Thor's going to be okay
Posted by tony on October 18, 2003 at 14:36:48:
In Reply to: Re: ASM2 57 -- Thor's going to be okay
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 01, 2003 at 19:55:17:

don't you get it?ok first of all you need to be worthy to weild the hammer,so scarlet witch will findsomeoneto wield it then thors son will win the hammer in battle ie wont need to be worthy because he won the hammer.he is the "reigning thor" loki will convince himt take over the world while thor mysteriously dissappears only to be thrust back younger stronger and "mightyer"to get mjolnir back and set all thing bak right before odin dies,thor will help defeat surtur and odins death in the marvel universe will never have happened and thor will relaunch!they will release a set of books ith the battles between the lord of earth andd earths mightiest avengers,x-men,and defenders and all will end well!thank you ,thank you thank you!

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The Punisher: Year One analysis
Posted by JLH on September 02, 2003 at 01:12:55:

-----------------------------------------------
THE PUNISHER: YEAR ONE, NUMBER 1 [DEC 94]

Cast:
The Punisher II/ Frank Castiglione/ "Frank Castle"
-Last in M/PRV 2-FB, next in PYO 2.

Laviano, Detective John
-Homicide Detective in charge of the Castle family murder. Next in PYO 2.

McTeer, Mike
-Washed-up reporter who is the witness that stumbles onto the Castle family slaying in the park. Next in PYO 2.

Witts, Detective Stan
-Partner of Det. Laviano. Next in PYO 2.

Jackal/ Miles Warren
-ESU College professor, covering for Mt. Sinai due to a shortage. Yes, even he makes a few comments about how absurd it is since he isn't even a physician. Placement should be with regard to Spider-Man cast appearances in the next issue.

Castle, Maria
-Deceased wife of Frank. Last in M/PRV 2-FB. Appears here as a bullet-riddle corpse.

Castle Jr., Frank
-Deceased son of Frank. Last in M/PRV 2-FB. Appears here as a bullet-riddle corpse.

Castle, Christie
-Deceased daughter of Frank. Last in M/PRV 2-FB. Appears here as a bullet-riddle corpse.

Hunt, Forrest
-Subject of execution in park. Hangs on for a while, but dies at the hospital. Last in M/PRV 2-FB (character's first published appearance).

Renaldi
-Medic attacked by Frank when he wakes up in a bodybag and freaks out. One-shot character.

Howles, Maurice
-One of two assassins sent to snuff Frank in the hospital. He's the only one named. Next in PYO 2.

Costa, Bruno (BEHIND THE SCENES)
-One of the men who killed Frank's family. Last in M/PRV 2-FB (which is also the character's first published appearance), next in PYO 2 BTS.

Allegre, Luis (BEHIND THE SCENES)
-One of the men who killed Frank's family. Last in M/PRV 2-FB (which is also the character's first published appearance), next in PYO 2 BTS.

Hannigan, Byron (BEHIND THE SCENES)
-One of the men who killed Frank's family. Last in M/PRV 2-FB (which is also the character's first published appearance), next in PYO 2 BTS.

Skinner (BEHIND THE SCENES)
-One of the men who killed Frank's family. Last in M/PRV 2-FB (which is also the character's first published appearance), next in PYO 2 BTS.

Kolsky (BEHIND THE SCENES)
-One of the men who killed Frank's family. Last in M/PRV 2-FB (which is also the character's first published appearance), next in PYO 2 BTS.

NOTE: Story takes place immediately following the slaying of the Castle family in Central Park.

Synopsis: Mike McTeer, down on his luck and alcoholic former reporter for the Daily Bugle, gets disturbed from his newspaper-covered rest on a bench in Central Park by the sound of gunfire. He groggily stumbles over to the source of the noise, and discovers five bloody victims. The cops are called, and Det. Laviano is put in charge of the case. It's believed all of the victims are dead, but an EMT discovers a pulse on one of them. It's Frank Castle, and awakening from his brush with death, finding himself in a half-closed bodybag and surrounded by cops, he immediately attacks in a rage. The cops wrestle him to the ground, medics sedate him, but even that's barely enough to calm him down. McTeer is attacked during this rampage, and is sent to the hospital, as well. At the hospital, Laviano and his partner Witts await word on Frank's condition. Miles Warren, filling in for Dr. Teaks due to a staff shortage, informs him that the man tied to the tree in the park and the main target of this mob hit, named Forrest Hunt, is still hanging on. Laviano and Witts head up to question him, leaving the still-unconscious Frank with a police guard. Meanwhile, McTeer is discharged, and begins writing up an article on Frank Castle, using info he gleaned from Witts & Laviano's file on him. Soon, Forrest Hunt dies of his wounds before he can give up the men who killed him. The Detectives leave for the night, but the police guard at Frank's door is met by two men dressed like doctors, who threaten the officer by way of his wife. Frank, in his hospital room, awakens from his drug-induced slumber, still wracked with depression over the loss of his wife and children. This, coupled with memories of the war, cripples him emotionally and physically, to the point that the two men, hired assassins, are able to to draw their guns and prepare to finish him off.

-----------------------------------------------

THE PUNISHER: YEAR ONE, NUMBER 2 [JAN 95]

Cast:

The Punisher II/ Frank Castiglione/ "Frank Castle"
-Last in PYO 1, his appearance in the early part of the FB from M/SA 1 takes place within this issue, he then appears in the rest of the issue, and next in PYO 3.

Laviano, Detective John
-Last in PYO 1, next in the early part of the FB from M/SA 1 (which is also his first published appearance).

McTeer, Mike
-Last in PYO 1, next in PYO 3.

Witts, Detective Stan
-Last in PYO 1, next in PYO 3.

Howles, Maurice
-Last in PYO 1, next in PYO 3. His fellow unnamed assassin is killed by Frank.

Furniss, Captain Howard
-Police Captain. Next in PYO 3 BTS.

Spider-Man/ Peter Parker
-Freelance photographer at the Daily Bugle. At said office to see Joe Robertson.

Leeds, Betty Brant
-Secretary at the Daily Bugle. Peter asks her about Ned Leeds, meaning the two are a couple at this point.

Robertson, Joseph "Robbie"
-City Editor of Daily Bugle. 

Jameson, J. Jonah (BEHIND THE SCENES)
-Robbie mentions he'll talk to him to get McTeer his job back. Later in the issue, McTeer goes to see him offscreen.

McTeer, Janey (BEHIND THE SCENES)
-McTeer's ex-wife. Calls him at the Bugle, leads to Frank having a falling out with the reporter. Next in PYO 3 BTS.

Costa, Bruno (BEHIND THE SCENES)
-Frank IDs him in the police station from mug shots. The police try to bring him and his fellow mooks in offscreen, but the case doesn't stick due to their alibis. Last in PYO 1 BTS, next in PYO 3.

Allegre, Luis (BEHIND THE SCENES)
-Frank IDs him in the police station from mug shots. The police try to bring him and his fellow mooks in offscreen, but the case doesn't stick due to their alibis. Last in PYO 1 BTS, next in M/SA 1 FB.

Hannigan, Byron (BEHIND THE SCENES)
-Frank IDs him in the police station from mug shots. The police try to bring him and his fellow mooks in offscreen, but the case doesn't stick due to their alibis. Last in PYO 1 BTS, next in M/SA 1 FB.

Skinner (BEHIND THE SCENES)
-Frank IDs him in the police station from mug shots. The police try to bring him and his fellow mooks in offscreen, but the case doesn't stick due to their alibis. Last in PYO 1 BTS, next in M/SA 1 FB.

Kolsky (BEHIND THE SCENES)
-Frank IDs him in the police station from mug shots. The police try to bring him and his fellow mooks in offscreen, but the case doesn't stick due to their alibis. Last in PYO 1 BTS, next in M/SA 1 FB.

NOTE 1: In ASM 202, Punisher mentions to Spidey he's been fighting crime for 10 years, and involves a flashback to one of his early cases. Clearly, the original intent was that Frank was likely in action even before most superheroes in the Marvel Universe. But this series retcons it to be at a point not too far in the past from his first appearance in ASM 129. It's possible that original point was lost a long time ago, during the myraid of other Punisher stories, but this one makes it clear.

NOTE 2: In M/SA 1, the majority of the issue takes place in a flashback, showing Frank take out the men who killed his family. The first page of it (following the "family's death" reprise), has Frank & Det. Laviano meeting at Frank's family's funeral, where he informs Frank that the charges to the men he picked out in the mug shots didn't stick. This scene is implied as happening within this issue, though it isn't shown. 

Synopsis: Before the two assassins can finish off Frank, he snaps out of his depression and back into a rage. He doesn't get a chance to kill the first man, as the guy's partner, later named Maurice Howell, fires at Frank in a scared outburst, and kills his partner instead! Frank attacks Maurice, but before he can kill him with his bare hands, the two Detectives, having heard the commotion from front of the hospital, race upstairs and stop him. Frank has a breakdown, crying for his wife, in the arms of Laviano, who promises to get the men who killed her for him. At the police station some time later, Frank points out the five men who shot his family in a mugshot book. One is the brother of the Costa Clan mob's leader. At the Daily Bugle, with appearances by several Spidey cast members, McTeer tries pitching the exclusive story of Frank Castle to Joe Robertson. It goes well for the once "great" reporter, and he even manages to bum a spare camera off of Peter Parker (not to mention stealing some film). McTeer then heads to the Castle household in the suburbs. Frank's wallowing in his pity, and drinking a lot. McTeer takes plenty of notes, very melodramatic stuff. He evens eggs Frank on, by claiming his own wife was killed by muggers. He's trying to get Frank to open up with him, to create a better article. Little does he realize he's instead fueling Frank's ever-dwindling sanity. Elsewhere, Det. Laviano is informed by his (implied on the take) Captain that the charges to the five men Frank picked out aren't going to stick, thanks to ironclad alibis. Laviano is distraught with having to tell Frank that the men who killed his family are gonna walk. After being told this, Frank talks to his wife's picture, and cries, telling her he's failed her. McTeer calls him up, and promises to help him get the men via the Daily Bugle. While McTeer is in seeing Jameson, Frank waits by Betty Brant's reception table. She takes a call from Janey McTeer, the reporter's ex-wife. Realizing he was being lied to, Frank heads back home, and prepares to commit suicide.

-----------------------------------------------

THE PUNISHER: YEAR ONE, NUMBER 3 [FEB 95]

Cast:

The Punisher II/ Frank Castiglione/ "Frank Castle"
-Last in PYO 2, next in PYO 4.

Laviano, Detective John
-Last in M/SA 1 FB, next in PYO 4.

McTeer, Mike
-Last in PYO 2. Gets killed by the Costa family's hitman. Next in PYO 4 as a corpse.

Witts, Detective Stan
-Last in PYO 2, next in PYO 4.

Furniss, Captain Howard (BEHIND THE SCENES)
-Last in PYO 2. Tries getting Witts & Laviano to investigate some assault cases on mobsters, but they ignore his offscreen orders.

Mulligan, Flynn
-Works for the Costa Mob. McTeer tries to buy info from him in a bar, but Frank has to beat him down when he refuses.

Colicos, Rico "The Beard"
-Mobster. After this issue, he's a mobster with a broken nose.

Costa, Bruno
-Last in PYO 2 BTS, next in M/SA 1 FB.

Costa, Frank
-Brother of Bruno. Head of the Costa Mob. Next in M/SA 1 FB (which is also the character's first published appearance).

Howles, Maurice
-Last in PYO 2. Killed by the Costa family's hitman.

Russo, Billy "The Beaut"
-Hitman for the Costa family. Next in PYO 4.

McTeer, Janey (BEHIND THE SCENES)
-Last in PYO 2 BTS. Appears here as a voice on the phone, having been called by her ex before he was shot.

Synopsis: McTeer rushes to Frank's home, trying to stop him from killing himself. He's too late, but Frank couldn't go through with it anyway. Snapping back to rage, Frank nearly chokes McTeer to death for lying to him. After calming down again, the two men have a discussion on the front porch. Frank mentions how Maria planted forget-me-nots neatly along the border of their home. McTeer tells him his real story, how he wanted to save his career, and how his life is in the crapper. Frank decides to return the selfishness favor, and plans to use McTeer in getting revenge. Five nights later, McTeer & Frank start tracking down various lowlifes on the Costa Clan's payroll, trying to get info. When they don't talk, Frank gets rough. McTeer barely manages to keep Frank from killing most of them. Reports of these assaults gets back to Laviano & Witts, with the Captain apparently wanting them to deal with these cases personally. Knowing the men are all part of the Costa network, they turn a blind eye to the reports. Meanwhile, the situation has come to the attention of Costa headmaster Frank Costa, who assures his brother, one of the men who killed Frank's family, that all loose ends in this situation will be taken care of, and knows just the man for the job. So, McTeer & Frank have become partners in shaking down the Costa's mob. McTeer's life is looking up, he's got a great story brewing, and he's being useful. He gets up the courage to cease drinking and mend ties with his ex-wife. He calls her up, but while on hold waiting for her, someone knocks at his door. He answers it, and is shot & killed by the Costa family's hitman. Said hitman also wastes Maurice Howles, who was still in the hospital from the beating he took when trying to kill Frank. Later, as Frank walks home, lost in thought, he notices the flowerbed in the front yard has been trampled. A moment later, his entire house explodes.

-----------------------------------------------

THE PUNISHER: YEAR ONE, NUMBER 4 [MAR 95]

Cast:

The Punisher II/ Frank Castiglione/ "Frank Castle"
-Last in PYO 3, next in rest of the M/SA 1 FB.

Laviano, Detective John
-Last in PYO 3, next in later part of the M/SA 1 FB.

Witts, Detective Stan
-Last in PYO 3.

Russo, Billy "The Beaut"
-Last in PYO 3. Frank smashes his face through a plate glass window. Becomes known as JIGSAW because of the way his face ends up. Next in ASM 161-BTS.

The Mechanic (BEHIND THE SCENES)
-Frank's source of weaponry and legless Vietnam vet. Mentioned by him in the story as where he gets his ordnance from. Next in M/SA 1 FB.

McTeer, Mike
-Last in PYO 3. Appears here as a corpse.

Plus, a cast of many nameless extras, many of which are mobsters and get killed.

NOTE: "Thanks to the Continuity-Man Peter Sanderson" is listed in the credits.

Synopsis: As the Castle family home continues to burn, and firefighters try to put it out, Laviano blames himself for Frank's death. Witts tries to convince him that they don't know for sure Frank was inside when the house blew, but he still feels guilty. Indeed, Frank escaped just in time to avoid getting blown to bits, but was close enough to the blast to sustain injury. He heads to McTeer's place, and discovers him dead on the floor. A short time later, Frank lurks around Laviano's house, and at night, during a storm, as his back is turned, Frank confronts him. Frank denies his identity, claiming Frank Castle died in Central Park. He wants to get justice, by getting the five men who killed the Castles. He wants to start with the hitman. Laviano mentions they have a good idea who the hitman is, from his MO. Frank reminds him of the promise he made, and Laviano, unwilling to give up any case files, merely tells him he keeps them in his briefcase in his car, and his neighborhood has quite a few break-ins. Later, Frank prepares for war against the hitman, whose name is Billy "The Beaut" Russo, called such because of his good looks. Using a tape recorder, Frank begins his first journal, as a declaration of intent. He suits up with guns, and a bullet proof vest, which he covers the from with a skull made in white paint. He also talks about his goal in this war, not about revenge or vengeance, but punishment of those whom the law is unable to properly deal with. He's tried it both McTeer's & Laviano's way, and now, is doing it the way he was trained as a Marine. Using his training and skills, he tracks Billy the Beaut down to a restaurant he plays poker at on Thursday nights. Long story short, Frank wipes out various mobsters (26 total), and when he comes face to face with Billy, decides to let him live, to deliver a message to the Costa's, on how they're going to be punished. He smashes his prized face through plate glass window, and hurls him out the window. Billy survives, but his face is nearly skinned. He looks like a jigsaw puzzle, according to Det. Witts, who goes over this report with Det. Laviano, who feels no remorse for what happened to them. The two detectives drop by a bar on Laviano's urgings, and he proposes a toast to the guy "doing what had to be done". Witts is clueless by what he means, but his partner merely tells him to remember that they were there when a war broke out.

			*	*	*

Re: The Punisher: Year One analysis
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 02, 2003 at 07:17:59:
In Reply to: The Punisher: Year One analysis
posted by JLH on September 02, 2003 at 01:12:55:

> NOTE 1: In ASM 202, Punisher mentions to Spidey he's been fighting crime for 10 years, and involves a flashback to one of his early cases. Clearly, the original intent was that Frank was likely in action even before most superheroes in the Marvel Universe. But this series retcons it to be at a point not too far in the past from his first appearance in ASM 129. It's possible that original point was lost a long time ago, during the myraid of other Punisher stories, but this one makes it clear.

Three MU years separate ASM 129 and 202, and thus the Punisher would had to have been fighting crime for seven years before his debut in ASM 129.  That would mean the Punisher predates Spidey.  This can't be right, given Peter Parker's presence in PYO as a Bugle photographer.

So the question is: where on the MU timeline does PYO belong?  Does anyone have clues from other titles that can be added to this great analysis by JLH?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: The Punisher: Year One analysis
Posted by JLH on September 03, 2003 at 05:04:36:
In Reply to: Re: The Punisher: Year One analysis
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 02, 2003 at 07:17:59:

> So the question is: where on the MU timeline does PYO belong?  Does anyone have clues from other titles that can be added to this great analysis by JLH?

If it helps any, PYO claims that the Castle Family is murdered in the Spring. This is the same time of year mentioned in M/SA 1 in regard to the incident. The whole of the PYO mini takes place within a little over 6 weeks, by what Laviano says in M/SA 1 (that the Castle case was put in the "open file" 6 weeks ago).

			*	*	*

Re: The Punisher: Year One analysis
Posted by Dimadick on September 05, 2003 at 09:31:28:
In Reply to: Re: The Punisher: Year One analysis
posted by JLH on September 03, 2003 at 05:04:36:

> > So the question is: where on the MU timeline does PYO belong?  Does anyone have clues from other titles that can be added to this great analysis by JLH?

Punisher seems to be getting special attention recently. The Appendix to the Marvel Handbook has been focusing in profiles about characters appearing in the various Punisher series: See:http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/apppunis.htm

You can see their profiles for more details.

From the profiles of characters relative to this early point in Punisher's history:

1)Bruno Costa. His profile lists him as being behind the scenes in a series of flashbacks in Punisher War Journal #3 that sets up the pace for Forrest Hunt's execution. Then he makes his first printed appearance in Marvel Preview #2 , published in 1975 and featuring a flashback to the execution. After PYO his next appearance next in  Marvel Super-Action magazine#1, with a publishing date of January, 1976. Through the whole issue Punisher narrates, in a extended flashback,  his activities after PYO including how he found Bruno only after he had been murdered by another. Following the end of the narration Punisher returns to the present and kills that other:Audrey, an assassin posing as a call-girl to get close to her victims.

2)The chronology for Louis Allegre, Byron Hannigan, Kolsky and Skinner is pretty much the same as for Bruno with the exception of behind the scenes appearances.

Perhaps more interestingly Punisher numbers the entries in his War Journal.

His mission against Bruno Costa covers entries #1-10 of the Jurnal. Allegre and Hannigan are killed in entry #7. Kolsky and Skinner in entry #10. Audrey is killed in entry #374, an event published January, 1976. From that you can possibly estimate how much time had occured between the entries.

3)Frank Costa's chronology is similar to that of his brother and he is also killed by Audrey shortly after his brother. The problem is that the demon Olivier, appearing in Punisher IV has claimed to be inhabiting Frank Costa's body ever since his birth. He claimed to be trapped in it as the result of a conspiracy by other Hell-Lords including Mephisto, Satannish, Lucifer, Satan and Murray(sic). All this told in a series of flash-backs in Punisher IV #4 predating Frank Costa's other appearances. He has also claimed to have located Frank Castle since he was a soldier in Vietnam and actualy orchestrating events in order to turn him into Punisher. The murder of his human form supposedly only resulted in his return to his personal Hell-Dimension under the noses of the other Hell-Lords. He has also claimed to have collected the souls of everybody Punisher ever killed , recruiting them in army. How much of this is accurate is a matter of debate actualy. How much time had occured between Punisher's Vietmam service and the death of his family seems to rise as a question as well as why he waited during this period.

4)Forrest Hunt. He appears in a series of flash-backs in Punisher War Journal #3 acting as the middle-man between the Costas and Hector Montoya. Trying to double-cross Montoya only results in Montoya framing him as double-crossing the Costas resulting in his execution. His eeath in PYO is his last appearance. 

His son Jason Hunt appears in Punisher War Journal #2-3 trying to kill Montoya in revenge for his father

5)Hector Montoya appears in Punisher War Journal #2-3 as well as in a series of flash-backs featuring his dealings with the Costas and Forrest Hunt, his framing of the later, his ending up up in prison after an attempted murder and his first meeting with an imprisoned Punisher while neither of them knows they are loosely connected. The present stories describe their attempts to kill each other after they find out.

6}Mechanic (whose last name is given as Reiss) is killed by Miles Warren/Jackal in Amazing Spider-Man #129 after a quarrel between Miles and Frank. The appearance comes after the deaths of the Costas and predates the death of Audrey. The Appendix estimates it to be about entry #300 in Punisher's journal though this is not testified in the story.

Mechanic was given an acquaintance from Vietnam. Other characters also appearing as acquaintances from the same period include Frank's war buddy Bruce Ayers, Frank's superior officer Liutenant Chris Hoyle and South Vietnam General Buktir Van Tranh , all met Frank in 1968.

Also included in this period is Sergeant Cleve Gorman, Frank's superior officer immediately after arriving from training. Enjoyed pressuring Frank , taunting him as a "Big Nothing" and savagely beating him when he tried to react. He was involved in an investigation about the deaths of many of his charges and Frank suspected he was actualy directly responsible for them but did not report him or further challenge him. He wanted to get back home as his wife Maria was pregnant and he looked forward to becoming a father.

The order of events in Frank's life seems clear but time passing between them and relation to other events of the Marvel Universe is still complicated.

Based on Miles Warren's appearances PYO could occure at any time beween his first appearance in Amazing Spider-Man #31(December, 1965) and his first meeting as Jackal with his old acquaintance in Amazing Spider-Man #129(February, 1974).

With the exception of tying that reference of service in Vietnam in 1968 with events in Spider-Man's life at the time there seems to be little to place it in a timeline, doesn't it?

			*	*	*

SILVER...SILVER SURFER...MERLE SINGER
Posted by Arthur Stein on September 02, 2003 at 20:34:43:

new entries marked **

SILVER
**AF 76
**AF 79
**AF 80
AF 84

SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD
FF 61
**TTA 92/2
TTA 93/2

..  ..  ..  ..  ..

SS@ 5
**DRSTR@ 2
DRSTR3 50

SINGER, MERLE
**FOOL 2  (25p5-26)
FOOL 4

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering!

#115

			*	*	*

Beta Ray Bill in the Wraith War
Posted by RLG on September 03, 2003 at 11:13:32:

  In Thor #354, page 14, panels 3-4, Sif returns to the Asgardian Warrior camp in Central Park and asks Beta Ray Bill why he "looks strangely tired."  Bill replies, "I assisted the Avengers in a skirmish with some creatures known as Dire Wraiths. It was nothing."  Bill's statement is backed up with a "Full details in Rom #65" statement at the bottom of the panel.

In Bill's chrono, his Wraith War (Rom #65 & 66) placement is just after his appearance in Thor #359.  I also noticed this in Paul's Avengers calendar.  Since I do not have Rom #65 in my collection, I hesitate to make a proposal for correction.  I do know that the Wraith War took place at the same time that Ben Grimm returned from BeyonderWorld and Dr.Strange assisted Reed, Sue, and the eternally-young Franklin with their battle against Mephisto (FF #276-277.)

In the Avengers chrono, it seems unlikely that they fought in the Surtur War, had their various adventures in their own book, then fought the Wraith War all in between the pages of Thor #354.  And in Thor's chrono, their IS a definite break in Thor #354, between which be appears in Thor Annual #13 & Marvel Team-Up #148.  

Could the break extend for a longer period of time?  Or could their be two or more breaks in the story? For example...

THOR #354
pages 1-6
(continued from previous issue)
  Thor & Loki discuss Odin's fate after his disappearance.  Meanwhile, the Asgardians (including Beta Ray Bill) and Karnill'a forces battle Surtur's demon army in the Sahara desert.  When the demons are defeated, Bill and the Warriors Three return to NYC to check on the injured Sif.  Hogun gives Sif the Exilir of Recovery.

-possible break-

pages 7-10
  In Asgard, Thor tells Heimdall of Odin's disappearance.  Hela arrives looking for Odin's soul.  Angered at her vulture-like ways, Thor battles Hela until she is forced to retreat.

- definite break: "Sometime later..."

pages 11-13
  Sif (fully-recovered) returns to Asgard and learns of Odin's fate from Thor.  Thor gives his blessing to Sif and Bill's love for one another and asks her "off camera" to, once she returns to Earth, have Fandrall go to Chicago and close down Don Blake's medical practice.  While Thor speaks, Frigga and some Asgardian children lament Odin's fate.
(NOTE: Thor's request for Fandrall to close Blake's medical practice indicates that he will be too busy in the near future to return to Earth)

-possible break-

pages 14-16
  Sif returns to the Asgardian camp in Central Park.  In her conversation with Bill, she claims to have been gone for "a few hours" (during this time, Bill has been fighting in the Wraith War.)  With the Surtur War over, the Asgardians decide to shop, sight-see, etc. around Manhattan.  In a penthouse overlooking the park, Loki and Lorelei plot their next scheme. 

-possible break-

pages 17-19
  In Asgard, Thor sets off to the snow-covered wilderness in the east.  Hela seeks her revenge for her earlier defeat by burying Thor in an avalanche.

			*	*	*

Re: Beta Ray Bill in the Wraith War
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 03, 2003 at 20:59:09:
In Reply to: Beta Ray Bill in the Wraith War
posted by RLG on September 03, 2003 at 11:13:32:

Back when I compiled the Avengers calendar, I made a different attempt to explain Bill's comment in T 354:
Beta Ray Bill mentions that he joined the Avengers in a skirmish with Dire Wraiths today, between pages 6 and 14, but despite the editors note this cannot be a reference to the big confrontation in Rom 65 but a much smaller battle with a few Wraiths who sought to take advantage of the chaos of the day -- after all, as Bill says, it was nothing.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Beta Ray Bill in the Wraith War
Posted by RLG on September 04, 2003 at 08:13:15:
In Reply to: Re: Beta Ray Bill in the Wraith War
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 03, 2003 at 20:59:09:

  Thanks for clearing that up for me.  Like I said, since I only have Rom #66, I was hesitant to offer a definite correction.

- RLG

			*	*	*

Re: Beta Ray Bill in the Wraith War
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 04, 2003 at 14:16:07:
In Reply to: Re: Beta Ray Bill in the Wraith War
posted by RLG on September 04, 2003 at 08:13:15:

I don't know that my explanation is the best, but it certainly avoids more complicated solutions to dealing with the timing of Rom #65.  If anyone wants to offer another explanation, please do.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Beta Ray Bill in the Wraith War
Posted by RLG on September 05, 2003 at 17:08:45:
In Reply to: Re: Beta Ray Bill in the Wraith War
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 04, 2003 at 14:16:07:

  Instead of moving the Wraith War to an earlier time, I was thinking about keeping the Wraith War where it is, but moving the events of Thor #354 (page 14-end) to #359 to a later time-frame (beginning at the end of the Wraith War and ending just before Power Pack #15.)  During this "new" gap between pg 13-14, the Asgardians would have returned from the Sahara desert and set up camp in Central Park.

 Also, the comment, "it was nothing", could be Bill's attempt to keep Sif from worrying (or to sound like a macho horse-faced stud!)

  Again, I do not have nearly all the issues from this time period, so I could easily be missing a key component that would negate the above proposition. 

- RLG 

			*	*	*

OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
Posted by Jeph! on September 03, 2003 at 14:09:34:

Operation: Zero Tolerance
map v1.0

Covering:
Cable #45-47
Generation X #24-31
Uncanny X-Men #341-350
Wolverine v2 #115-118
X-Force #67-70
X-Man #30
X-Men #62-70
X-Men Unlimited #16

During this map, half of the X-Men team  Wolverine, Storm, Cyclops, Phoenix, and Cannonball  are captured by OZT, and escape.  The other half of the team, in "Uncanny"  Gambit, Rogue, Bishop, the Beast, and Joseph  are shanghaied to Shi'Ar space, returned to earth, captured by Nanny, and escape.  So at any given moment, bits of the X-Men are being captured, escaping, or all over the place.  I've tried to keep things straight in the map, but there may be a little confusion.  Bear with me.

In most cases, OZT appeared to take place over a single evening, night, and the following morning  but events in "Wolverine" showed that THREE days passed.  The X-Men were captured in the daytime (1), escaped at sunset, were on the run for a night and day (2), attacked the Prospero Clinic at night, and returned to the X-Mansion in the daytime (3).  Since this was one of the core books of the crossover, I found and created day-long gaps in the other books, rather than squeeze W2 down to two days.  It works rather well  the only nagging problem is that Marrow gets lost for 24 hours.  (Some other issues, on the other hand, try to tell us that OZT went on for "several days", but for various reasons, that just can't be right.)

I have assigned days of the week to most issues, in an attempt to more easily track the passage of time.  These all spring from one reference, X-Force #67, which claims to be a "Saturday", and was shown to be the day before the initial attack on the X-Men in X-Men #65.  There are some inconsistencies  Congress meeting on a Sunday night, for example  but overall, I found them a useful tool for keeping track of how much time had passed since various events.  Although two issues claim to be Christmas Eve, I held off on actually assigning dates to everything.  It's not my intention to place this on an absolute calendar  just a relative one.  (And besides, assigning dates based on the "Christmas Eve" reference will mess with an upcoming New Years' reference in X #73. ;-)  I plan ahead!)

And finally, in reference to my earlier thread about taking pages out of order  I've tried to keep it to a minimum here, and in most cases I've managed to link the books together without shuffling around the order of subplot pages  but there are a few scenes where I had to break the rules, and I've tried to justify them each time.

Feel free to question why I made each placement decision  I tried to show my reasoning for them all, but I may have left some information out or made some deductive leaps that aren't readily obvious  so if you don't understand why I did something, ask!

-Jeph!

--------

X-Men Unlimited #16
This issue alleges that it occurs amidst the OZT crossover, and a footnote references X #65 (which occurs the same day as Gen X #28/2)  but it really can't work there.  The Gen X kids are missing from Gen-X #25-31, and by the time they're found prior to #32, OZT is over and Bastion is in prison (and unable to appear here, as he does).  During the entire time the Gen X kids are missing, Banshee and Emma are frantic to find them  and this issue, where the headmasters are sitting around calmly discussing who should be admitted to the school's summer internship program, doesn't fit.  (Plus, to get picky, it occurs over more days than the OZT crossover has to spare.)  Bastion's plan of placing Prime Sentinels undercover is in full swing, though, so it can't be TOO far removed from OZT.  Since there's snow at the academy in Gen-X #24-25 and sunny weather in this issue, I propose it takes place just before Gen X #24, and that the line about "Xavier's compromised database" and the footnote referencing X #65 be ignored.

Uncanny X-Men #341
Uncanny X-Men #342
Tuesday or Wednesday.  Christmas Eve, and starting to snow.  "Almost a week" before UX #343.  Half of the X-Men are teleported into Shi'Ar space.

Gen X #24
Tues/Wed to Wed/Thurs.  Christmas Eve into Christmas day.  Snow at the academy.  Black Tom prepares to attack the school.  (Even if it's not a canonical "Christmas Eve", as I suspect, placing both issues on the same day seems to work well with both books' internal chronology.)

Gen X #27 (second story)
A one-page "Cookin with Jubilee" strip by Jim Mahfood.  No reason it's not canon.  Before Gen X #25, if thats M I and Penance I, or after #40 if thats M II and Penance II.

(Placeholder for "New Mutants: Truth or Death" #1-3, which take place on a "weekend" when the mansion is relatively deserted, prior to X #62.)

Gen X #25
Monday or Tuesday, "nearly a week" before Gen X #28/2 (Sunday).  Snow on the ground.  Jubilee is captured by Bastion.

Uncanny X-Men #343
Monday or Tuesday.  Same day as Gen X #25-26.  Jubilee is taken to "processing", and Bastion wants her en route to the Hulkbuster base "within the hour".  Meanwhile, the X-Men have been in space for "nearly a week" since #342.

Gen X #26
Monday or Tuesday.  The same day as Gen X #25.  Jubilee is now at the Hulkbuster base, allegedly less than an hour after #25 ended (although not necessarily an hour after her capture).  This issue tries to show us that Bastion's base is somewhere surrounded by ice and snow  but this doesn't jibe with anything we'd seen before.  Gen X #27 shows us that Bastion's assistant Daria is an illusion-caster, though, so it's not unreasonable to assume that the snowy plain Jubilee encounters was an illusion meant to recapture her.

X-Man #30 pp.1-3
Tuesday or Thursday?  Nate later says he'd been healing on the girls' couch for "almost a week".  He says it's "mid-summer", although he qualifies it with "I think"  and since theres snow on the ground in Gen X #25 and UX #341-342, Nate must really be out of it.  (Later on he claims that Cable contacted him "two days or more" ago when in-book evidence forces it to be 12 hours prior, but we can blame that mistake on his state of mind too.)

Uncanny X-Men #344
Wednesday or Thursday?  The X-Men defeat the space Phalanx.  Meanwhile, on earth, OZT gears up.

Uncanny X-Men #345 pp.1-13
Friday night to Saturday.  Maggott searches for Joseph in Guatemala, probably on Friday night on earth.  (He's next seen in South Carolina on Sunday night.)  The X-Men are given a banquet for saving the Shi'Ar.

X-Men #62
X-Men #63 pp.1-18
Saturday, all day.  (The X-Men begin at night in Scotland, which is late Friday night or early Saturday morning in the USA, then they travel to night and sunrise in Hong Kong, which would be Saturday afternoon and night in the USA.)  The X-Men travel to Hong Kong to investigate a potential Legacy Virus cure, and face Sebastian Shaw and the Kingpin.

X-Force #67 pp.1-2
Saturday, 8:23 pm CST (9:23 pm EST).  Zero Tolerance troops surround the MLF and X-Force at the Wakeman Institute.  At 11:25 pm EST, Cable puts Caliban to bed at the X-Mansion, and at 12:04 am, he speaks with Archangel (who is back from his "Crimson Dawn" adventure, or hasn't left yet).  This, then, must be BEFORE the mansion is taken over by Bastion at "7pm"  and thus, the day before X #65.  The main part of the issue ends at 11:10 pm CST (12:10 am EST).

X-Force #68 pp.1-9
Sunday, just after midnight  beginning at 12:07 am CST (1:07 EST).  X-Force battles the Prime Sentinels and escapes.

X-Force #67 p.23
Sunday early morning.  At 2:45 am EST the night of the rest of XFO #67, Ozymandias visits a sleeping Caliban, and says that this will be the final night he sleeps in the mansion  implying that Cable #45-47 happen the very next day.

Gen X #27
Sunday.  Emma and Sean somehow know that Franklin, Artie and Leech are safe  so is this after Daydreamers #1?  Bastion says hell be moving on the X-Men flying back from Hong Kong "tonight", making this the day of X #65.  Banshee realizes where the kids are.

X-Men #63 pp.19-22
X-Men #64 pp.1-18
Sunday, early morning EST (daytime Sunday in Hong Kong).  The X-Men destroy the Elixir Vitae.  Meanwhile, Jubilee feels like she's been in captivity for "days" (she references Bastion's mindgames from Gen-X #27), and Bastion tells her that his plan "has already begun".

Gen X #28 (first story)
Sunday.  Its been two days since Jubilees eaten, but that doesnt tell us anything.  Gen X is transported to Los Angeles by Glorian, the Shaper of Dreams.

Uncanny X-Men #345 pp.14-25
Sunday, afternoon.  The X-Men head home, but are involved in an intergalactic near-miss and hurled uncontrollably through the stargate to Earth.

X-Men #64 pp.19-22
The X-Mens jet is confronted by OZT flying vehicles, and ordered to surrender.

Gen X #28 (second story)
Sunday night, 7pm.  As Banshee and Emma locate where Gen X *was* before they were transported away, they hear Cyclops voice on the radio, placing this during OZTs attack on the X-Men in X #65 (7pm EST).  Jubilee has been prisoner for "nearly a week", and she attacks Daria, who loses control of her nanites.

Gen X #29 pp.22-23
Sunday night, 7pm or so.  Jubilee calms down Daria after her plasmoid attack.  The narration claims this to be "earlier" than the main body of the issue, and the events follow directly from Gen X #28/2 without a pause, so this is still the night of X #65.  I dont like taking pages out of order without claiming the scene a flashback, but in this case it seems I have to, as the rest of the issue is at least the next day.

X-Men #65 pp.1-8
Sunday evening, 7pm.  The X-Men's jet is attacked by OZT troops, the X-Men are captured, and Bastions occupies the X-Mansion.

X-Men #65 pp.9-10
Sunday evening, just after 7pm EST.  CNBC breaking news shows live images of the air battle, and an interview with Gyrich who states that the battle began at 7pm EST.

Cable #45  FB  pp.7-10
Sunday evening, just after 7pm EST.  The evening of X #65.  Cable watches the live news reports of the X-Mens capture (also broadcast in X #65).  A caption says that this is "twelve hours" prior to the main events of Cable #45, but that must be an error given the timing of Cables appearances in X-Force #69-70, and given Bridge's "six hour deadline" for Cable to recapture the X-Mansion.

X-Men #65 pp.11-22
Sunday evening, just after 7pm EST.  The X-Men are downed and captured, and Bastion seizes possession of the X-Mansion and manages to download some data from the computers.

Uncanny X-Men #346
Sunday evening, around 8pm.  Jameson says that the CNBC live footage of the X-Men's capture was "an hour ago".  Bastion shows up at the Bugle with data that he stole from Xavier's computers from his initial scan in X #65.

Uncanny X-Men #347
Uncanny X-Men #348 pp.1-7
Sunday night, after 8pm.  Continuing pretty much directly from UX #346.  A wounded Callisto orders Marrow to find and help the X-Men.  The other half of the X-Men is revealed to be in Antarctica, where they're captured by Nanny.  It's nighttime in South Carolina, where Maggott is.

Wolverine #115 pp.1-6, p.7 panels 1-4
Sunday evening, around 8pm.  The X-Men arrive at the Hulkbuster base  they were taken into custody "approximately an hour ago", so the issue opens at around 8pm or so (6pm NM time).  Bastion is now at the Hulkbuster base too, so this probably takes place after he approached Jameson in NYC.

Wolverine #115 p.7 panels 5-6
Sunday evening, around 8pm.  Bastion visits Professor Xavier, in a scene which I think works best dovetailed into a similar scene in X #66.  Evidence in this issue places all of W2 #115 between 6pm NM time and sundown, but X #66 tells us that Bastion taunts Xavier at 1:15 am NM time.  I'm going with the earlier time, as it makes Bastion's return to the X-Mansion in time for Cable #45 easier to achieve.

X-Men #66 pp.20-22
Sunday evening, 8pm?  Bastion confronts Prof. X with holograms of the captured X-Men, in an apparent attempt to "shock" him into using his telepathy.  In W2 #115 p.9, Bastion informs Xavier that Wolverine is dead, so this scene, where he's merely showing him that Wolvie is CAPTURED, should come before.  Also, nothing in this scene is particularly "shocking", given that Prof. X has known since X #65 that Bastion has captured some X-Men  so my theory is that the two scenes are continuations of one another, and Bastion's "shocking" info mentioned in X #66 was Wolvie's death, which he drops on Prof. X in W2 #115.  The scenes actually read very well this way.  Unfortunately, this places pp.20-22 of X #66 BEFORE pp.1-19  but given the multiple places Bastion is sighted over this crossover, this small shift makes a lot of things easier.

Wolverine #115 p.8-22
Sunday evening, 8:30pm EST or a 6:30pm sunset in NM.  The X-Men escape into what looks like sundown, and Bastion states that he's returning to the X-Mansion (where we'll see him in Cable #45).  Jubilee is still a captive here, after the events in Gen X #29 pp.22-23 where she could have escaped  but presumably chose not to.

Gen X #29  FB  pp.2-9
Sunday?  Early evening into night in LA.  The day before the rest of the events in Gen X #29.  Although dialogue suggests that this flashback takes place the day AFTER Gen X arrives in LA (Monday), placing the main body of the issue on Tuesday, that doesnt work with events in #29-31 and Wolverine #115-117 that imply that the main body must have been on Monday.  Husk's dialogue must be incorrect.

Cable #45  FB  pp.11-12
Sunday, late evening EST.  Cable calls Bridge and asks how things have developed "in the last hour", placing this at least an hour after pp.7-10.  Bridge reports that the X-Men have been (or are being) incarcerated, placing this after X #66 and the start of W2 #115.  Bridge gives Cable a six-hour deadline to retake the X-Mansion, which he apparently meets by the end of Cable #47.  If this scene is, say, 10pm, then Cable retakes the X-Mansion by 4am.

Cable #45 pp.1-5
Sunday, late evening.  Cable fights his way onto the X-Mansion grounds and apparently vanishes in an explosion.  Bastion, who is back at the X-Mansion, knows he has not been killed.  This is the second most likely spot in the story for Bastion to consider him "playing hide and seek", as he says in XFO #68 p.15, but the most likely spot (between pp.7-8 of Cable #46) contains almost zero elapsed time, and a few hours elapse between XFO #68 p.15 and XFO #69 p.8, a scene which dovetails with Cable #46 p.8.

X-Force #68 pp.10-23
Sunday, the evening of X #65.  Sledge watches news reports of the Wakeman wrap-up early this morning, and OZTs capture of the X-Men "today"  other reports say that "both houses of Congress are heatedly debating" OZTs actions, which is a bit of a puzzler, because this scene takes place after 7pm Sunday night and before 7am Monday morning.  One would assume that it must be an emergency session.   On p.15, Cable is currently "playing hide and seek at Xaviers mansion", a reference to Cable #45-47.

Uncanny X-Men #348 pp.8-13
Late Sunday night.  A few hours after Nanny's capture of this half of the X-Men, Nanny shows Joseph news channels displaying OZT events.  One station said the X-Men were shot down "earlier this morning", but that could just be an Australian station (which would be easier for Nanny to pick up from Antarctica), referring to their local timezone.

X-Men #66 pp.1-19
Monday, early morning.  Beginning at 2:50 am EST, and going past 3:02 am, Cecelia Reyes is attacked by Sentinels and saved by Iceman.

Uncanny X-Men #348 pp.15-22
Early Monday morning  but the X-Men have lost all sense of time, and being in Antarctica doesn't help  they're all going to sleep "for the night".  Gambit and Rogue have been moved again, so this is a little bit after pp.8-13.  With dampened powers, Gambit and Rogue decide to let nature take its course.

Wolverine #116 pp.1-12
Sunday night and early Monday.  The X-Men find shelter with Mustang.  P.12 ends at about 2:30am New Mexico time  about 4:30am EST.

X-Force #69 pp.1-7
Early Monday morning  GW Bridge is awakened in his pajamas.  (Oddly enough, he's not awake and waiting around for Cable's six hour deadline to expire.)  Its before 0500 hours GMT (7 am EST), and long enough after the end of last issue for Domino to have undergone surgery and be dumped on the interstate.

Cable #45 pp.13-22
Cable #46 pp.1-7
Cable resurfaces in the X-Mansion, rescues Caliban, and disappears into the Morlock tunnels.

Cable #46 pp.8-9 ~ X-Force #69 p.8
Monday.  Before 7am EST.  Cable sends Caliban to safety in a scene shown in both issues.

Cable #46 pp.10-17
Cable fights his way to the War Room and begins destroying Xavier's files.

Cable #46 p.18 ~ X-Man #30 pp.4-5
Cable contacts Nate Grey and asks him to protect Jean's extended family.  The scenes in both issues have completely different dialogue, but a footnote tells us that "telepathy is all in the mind's eye of the beholder".  Nate is so out of it that he doesn't react to Cable's plea for several hours.

Cable #46 pp.19-22
Cable #47 pp.1-20, p.21 panel 1
Cable mind-wipes every OZT soldier and makes them leave the mansion grounds.  He then blacks out, and when he comes to, Bastion has stripped the mansion bare.

X-Force #69 pp.9-22
Monday.  Pp. 12-22 occur at 0500 hours (in New Mexico  0700 hours EST.)  X-Force fights with some Prime Sentinels.

X-Force #70 pp.1-6
Monday.  Pp.1-6 wrap up the fight at around 5:30 CST / 7:30 am.

X-Men #67 pp.1-7
Monday morning EST.  Nighttime in Israel.  Sabra escapes a Sentinel ambush and leaves for the USA.

Wolverine #116 pp.13-22
Monday morning.  Bastion flies overhead in NM, so he's back from being routed out of the X-Mansion by Cable.  At the end of the issue, Senator Kelly decides to have SHIELD shut down OZT  and is told by Gyrich that he'll need presidential approval.  (Placing Cable #47 p.21 after this issue, as in that scene SHIELD has been notified and Kelly is already in talks with the President.)

Wolverine #117 pp.1-9
Monday, before noon in NM.  The X-Men decide to attack the Prospero Clinic.

X-Force #70 pp.7-8
A caption on p.7 says that OZT occupied Xaviers mansion "several days ago", but it cant be right  "several hours ago" is more accurate.  Cable searches for Caliban in the tunnels, and claims the troops are "long gone".

X-Force #70 pp.9-15
Monday.  Domino is picked up from the truck stop (which is why this issue cant be "several days" after last issue, as p.7 contends).

Gen X #29 pp.1, 10-21, 24
Gen X #30
Gen X #31
Monday?  Gen X is attacked by Sentinels, and Emplate approaches Banshee and Emma, hoping to exchange Penance for the location of the rest of Gen X, and leading to a falling-out between Banshee and Emma.  Jubilee is freed by Daria and released into the desert.  A single line of dialogue implies that the "Gen X fights Sentinels" part occurs the following day (Tuesday), but since SHIELD is mopping up OZT before the sun even rises on Tuesday, that line must be in error.

Wolverine #117 pp.10-11
Monday "afternoon" in NM (after 2pm EST).  Bastion receives word that Sabra has escaped the Sentinel ambush (X #67), and may already be in the USA.

Uncanny X-Men #349 pp.4-8, 12-14, 18-23
Monday afternoon.  After a "night" together, Gambit and Rogue and the rest of the X-Men escape from Nanny, and Gambit willingly turns himself over to Spat and Grovel.

X-Force #70 pp.16-21
Monday evening.  "Two hours" after p.15, in what looks like dusk, X-Force splits from Cable's leadership.

Uncanny X-Men #350 pp.1-7, 9
Monday evening.  Gambit is taken away by Spat and Grovel, and the X-Men begin to construct a craft to follow him.

X-Men #67 pp.8-23
X-Men #68 pp.1-19
Monday, early evening.  Iceman seems to know that the X-Mansion has been breached, but not that it has been emptied.  Bastion is at the Hulkbuster base, taunting Xavier again.  Iceman and Cecelia are ambushed at Archangel's apartment.  Senator Kelly prepares to speak to the President.

Cable #47 p.21 panels 2-5, p.22
Cable recounts the events at the mansion to GW Bridge, who tells him that Senator Kelly is in talks with the president about mobilizing SHIELD against Bastion.

Uncanny X-Men #348 p.14
Late Monday evening.  Archangel and Psylocke return to their apartment and find it covered with ice  placing this after Iceman's battle there in X #67.  Psylocke senses "darkness" atop the WTC, and teleports off to investigate.  Unfortunately, this scene can't occur during the rest of the issue.

Uncanny X-Men #349 pp.1-3, 9-11, 15-17
Uncanny X-Men #350 pp.8
Late Monday evening  an art festival is being held beneath the WTC, so it's not TOO late at night.  Psylocke claims that she sensed Maggott "moments ago".  A short battle between Maggott and Psylocke and Archangel, ending with Psylocke teleporting them to Magneto's citadel in Antarctica.  Assuming her teleports are instantaneous, and they arrive in UX #350 p.15, then the whole Maggott/Archangel/Psylocke sequence from UX #348-350 probably takes place in the time gap between pp.9-10 of UX #350  which goes against a few narration boxes claiming things like "at that moment" and "earlier"  but who cares.

Uncanny X-Men #350 pp.10-21
Monday night.  The X-Men, including Psylocke, Archangel, and Maggott, reach Magneto's citadel and are captured and knocked unconscious, one by one.  Erik the Red prepares them for Gambit's "trial".

Wolverine #117 pp.12-23
Monday, sundown and night, into Tuesday morning an hour before sunup.  Jubilee has escaped from the Hulkbuster Base, and Wolverine finds her in the desert.  The Prospero Clinic is shut down.

X-Man #30 pp.6-22
Monday night.  Nate battles two Prime Sentinels to protect Joseph and Gailyn Bailey.  He claims the call from Cable came "two days ago, maybe more"  but since Bastion is still free and in NM at the end of the issue, Nate must have been mistaken  understandable, given his illness.

X-Men #68 pp.20-23
X-Men #69 pp.1-10
Tuesday morning, sunrise in NYC.  Iceman, Marrow, and Cecelia are ambushed by Sentinels, and saved by Sabra.  Kelly has just spoken to the Senate, presumably after his meeting with the President, and the Executive Council has agreed to mobilize SHIELD.  Since we see an active SHIELD at night in W2 #118 after a daytime scene on the East Coast, that must place this scene at the cusp of sunup on the East Coast, still barely nighttime in New Mexico.  The poor Senate has apparently been up all hours the last few days.

Wolverine #118
Early Tuesday morning, before sunrise in NM.  SHIELD is chasing OZT troops, and Bridge claims that although Bastion is on the run, they should have all of OZT mopped up by 1800 hours.  The X-Men steal an OZT jet and head for the X-Mansion, where they'll arrive in X-Men #70.

X-Men #69 pp.11-22
Tuesday morning.  Iceman, Marrow, Cecelia, and Sabra arrive in Connecticut.  SHIELD arrives after their actions in NM early that morning, and arrests Bastion (last seen in New Mexico, who must have fled here).

Uncanny X-Men #350 p.22
Tuesday morning.  The X-Men in the captured OZT craft are over Philadelphia, en route to the X-Mansion.

Uncanny X-Men #350 pp.23-36
Tuesday morning.  The trial of Gambit, culminating in the rest of the X-Men leaving (presumably teleporting straight home via Psylocke, arriving in X #70) and leaving Gambit in the Antarctic.

X-Men #70
Tuesday morning, despite two references to it being a "weekend".  (Juggy's reference is a throwaway line, and Wolvie's been in prison or on the run since Sunday, and in Japan since the previous week, so he could easily have lost track of time.)  All the X-Men converge on the mansion and, in an impromptu bit of teamwork, defuse the bomb inside Scott.  The issue ends at night.

			*	*	*

Re: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 03, 2003 at 22:30:14:
In Reply to: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
posted by Jeph! on September 03, 2003 at 14:09:34:

Jeph,

It may take me a little while to review this, but I have copied it into a document for further work and reformating to the style template I'm using for the calendar.  I'm looking at the big MU picture to see if I can deal with those holiday and seasonal references.  I'm working on a calendar theory that puts Zero Tolerance just after Thanksgiving instead of Christmas, S-M 88 and FF3 2 around Christmas, and X 73 at New Year's.  Working out from here suggests:

Crossing -- in early Sept. (Avengers anniversary)
Onslaught -- in late Sept.
Heroes Return -- in mid Dec. ("a few months" after Onslaught)

This would also involve placing a gap of MU inactivity sometime the following year.  

Anyway, I'll be examining this bigger picture as I review the details of time flow for Zero Tolerance.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
Posted by Dimadick on September 05, 2003 at 12:47:12:
In Reply to: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
posted by Jeph! on September 03, 2003 at 14:09:34:

Excelent work in making sense of a crossover with an apparently omnipresent Bastion. But some comments and questions are I hope wellcome.

> Uncanny X-Men #341
> Uncanny X-Men #342
> Tuesday or Wednesday.  Christmas Eve, and starting to snow.  "Almost a week" before UX #343.  Half of the X-Men are teleported into Shi'Ar space.

That Christmas Eve reference in #341 always seemed to me a little awkward. Beast and Trish Tilby as well as Rogue and Joseph are busy in their respective dates. Bishop and Gambit each want some time to themselves. So far so good. But Cannonball is going out to buy some Christmas presents for his family. Shopping on Christmas Eve in New York for his family in Kentucky? Talking about last minute shopper.

On a second note while walking Cannonball passes beside a rather moody man with a jacket hiding a black uniform with a very prominent skull on it. It seems to be Punisher making a cameo. Any idea where to place it in his chronology?

Issue #342 page 10 has a scene where Wolverine, Storm, Cyclops and Phoenix critisize Cannonball for "loosing the X-Men". Page 14 includes their failed attempts to locate them or contact the Shi'ar.

> Uncanny X-Men #343
> Monday or Tuesday.  Same day as Gen X #25-26.  Jubilee is taken to "processing", and Bastion wants her en route to the Hulkbuster base "within the hour".  Meanwhile, the X-Men have been in space for "nearly a week" since #342.

Beast's narration while examining the comatose Deathbird though humorous seems at first to indicate that he has no idea what day is it in relation to Earth but then mentions that they are in space for a week and Deathbird has been in her coma for three days. The week comment can be seen as an estimation. The second seems to indicate that three days have passed since the last page of the previous issue when Bishop located Deathbird.

> Uncanny X-Men #344
> Wednesday or Thursday?  The X-Men defeat the space Phalanx.  Meanwhile, on earth, OZT gears up.

The X-Men win but the Shi'ar seem to be in a bad shape with Deathbird still recovering from wounds and Lilandra from torture. Joseph seems very moody through out the issue and his thoughts are reflecting on German concetration camps during World War II. Gambit seems worried that his team-mate is reverting to Magneto. Maybe you should allow for some time to pass between the finale and the next issue in order for them to be in condition to celebrate. 

> Uncanny X-Men #345 pp.1-13
> Friday night to Saturday.  Maggott searches for Joseph in Guatemala, probably on Friday night on earth.  (He's next seen in South Carolina on Sunday night.)  The X-Men are given a banquet for saving the Shi'Ar.

That banquet is stated to have lasted through the night and to dawn (twin suns setting up). Both Lilandra and Deathbird seem to be in good condition and mood. Both Joseph and Gambit are still moody while Trish breaks up with Beast after accompanying him through this mission.

> X-Men #62
> X-Men #63 pp.1-18
> Saturday, all day.  (The X-Men begin at night in Scotland, which is late Friday night or early Saturday morning in the USA, then they travel to night and sunrise in Hong Kong, which would be Saturday afternoon and night in the USA.)  The X-Men travel to Hong Kong to investigate a potential Legacy Virus cure, and face Sebastian Shaw and the Kingpin.

Accompanying through this mission is Shang Chi. Appropriate since both Shaw and Fisk are after the elixir of life of Fu Manchu, considered deceased at the time. Actualy both Shaw and Fisk were considered deceased priop to this appearance of them. Needless to say all three archvillains are alive and kicking to this day.

> X-Men #63 pp.19-22
> X-Men #64 pp.1-18
> Sunday, early morning EST (daytime Sunday in Hong Kong).  The X-Men destroy the Elixir Vitae.  Meanwhile, Jubilee feels like she's been in captivity for "days" (she references Bastion's mindgames from Gen-X #27), and Bastion tells her that his plan "has already begun".

The expacts destroy a sample of the Elixir in order to avoid negotiating with either Shaw or Fisk. They resolve to find a cure to the Legacy Virus on their own terms. (Colossus is not among them in making a decision that would eventualy cost his life).

> Uncanny X-Men #345 pp.14-25
> Sunday, afternoon.  The X-Men head home, but are involved in an intergalactic near-miss and hurled uncontrollably through the stargate to Earth.

Bishop and Deathbird are still in space even as Beast, Rogue, Gambit, Joseph and Trish Tilby return to Earth. The X-Men will not meet Bishop again for a while.

> X-Men #64 pp.19-22
> The X-Mens jet is confronted by OZT flying vehicles, and ordered to surrender.

For some reason the first three pages of the next issue have Phoenix teleported to Earth-Heroes Reborn when she has a short encounter with Iron-Man currently inhabiting it. Iron-Man is confused of where she vanishes to and resolves to immediately contact Reed Richards. In the Projects chronology of Iron-Man this occurs between Iron-Man II issues #8 and #9. It might offer clues on how to relate the events of both Earths to each other prior to Heroes Return.

> X-Men #65 pp.1-8
> Sunday evening, 7pm.  The X-Men's jet is attacked by OZT troops, the X-Men are captured, and Bastions occupies the X-Mansion.

As I mentioned the first three pages don't occure in Earth-616 but in Earth-Heroes Reborn. Phoenix returns to the other X-Men in time to be captured.

> X-Men #65 pp.9-10
> Sunday evening, just after 7pm EST.  CNBC breaking news shows live images of the air battle, and an interview with Gyrich who states that the battle began at 7pm EST.

> X-Men #65 pp.11-22
> Sunday evening, just after 7pm EST.  The X-Men are downed and captured, and Bastion seizes possession of the X-Mansion and manages to download some data from the computers.

Among the people listening to news reports are Cecilia Reyes and Iceman. The later leaves his parental home to find if he can help with the situation.

> Uncanny X-Men #346
> Sunday evening, around 8pm.  Jameson says that the CNBC live footage of the X-Men's capture was "an hour ago".  Bastion shows up at the Bugle with data that he stole from Xavier's computers from his initial scan in X #65.

The cover features Spider-Man/Peter Parker and Marrow who are for all intends and purposes the stars of this issue. Callisto and Marrow attack Henry Peter Gyrich and Spider-Man shows up in order to help him. All four join forces against Prime Sentinels attacking them. The scenes taking place in the Bugle also feature Robertson and Ben Urich. The only X-Man appearing on panel is Gambit and only in one page. Spider. Fan comments this issue as one of the finest appearances of J. Jonah Jameson.

> Uncanny X-Men #347
> Uncanny X-Men #348 pp.1-7
> Sunday night, after 8pm.  Continuing pretty much directly from UX #346.  A wounded Callisto orders Marrow to find and help the X-Men.  The other half of the X-Men is revealed to be in Antarctica, where they're captured by Nanny.  It's nighttime in South Carolina, where Maggott is.

Pages 6 and 7 actualy have little to do with Earth. The first features Deathbird and the later Bishop having a discussion. Deathbird announces her plans for the two of them to run an Empire together. (At this point a relationship between the two of them as lovers is formed but is rather short-lived).

> X-Men #66 pp.20-22
> Sunday evening, 8pm?  Bastion confronts Prof. X with holograms of the captured X-Men, in an apparent attempt to "shock" him into using his telepathy.  In W2 #115 p.9, Bastion informs Xavier that Wolverine is dead, so this scene, where he's merely showing him that Wolvie is CAPTURED, should come before.  Also, nothing in this scene is particularly "shocking", given that Prof. X has known since X #65 that Bastion has captured some X-Men  so my theory is that the two scenes are continuations of one another, and Bastion's "shocking" info mentioned in X #66 was Wolvie's death, which he drops on Prof. X in W2 #115.  The scenes actually read very well this way.  Unfortunately, this places pp.20-22 of X #66 BEFORE pp.1-19  but given the multiple places Bastion is sighted over this crossover, this small shift makes a lot of things easier.

> Uncanny X-Men #348 pp.8-13
> Late Sunday night.  A few hours after Nanny's capture of this half of the X-Men, Nanny shows Joseph news channels displaying OZT events.  One station said the X-Men were shot down "earlier this morning", but that could just be an Australian station (which would be easier for Nanny to pick up from Antarctica), referring to their local timezone.

Actualy Joseph also views a report about the initial battle between Spider-Man and Marrow and a statement of Moira MacTaggert. The later's face awakes in Joseph a sudden "thirst for revenge". I have no idea why. As far as I know they never met.

> X-Men #66 pp.1-19
> Monday, early morning.  Beginning at 2:50 am EST, and going past 3:02 am, Cecelia Reyes is attacked by Sentinels and saved by Iceman.

The first page also features the first page of the Daily Bugle, apparently from the previous day. It mentions a battle between the Thunderbolts and X-Man. Any idea what event is referenced here?

> Uncanny X-Men #348 pp.15-22
> Early Monday morning  but the X-Men have lost all sense of time, and being in Antarctica doesn't help  they're all going to sleep "for the night".  Gambit and Rogue have been moved again, so this is a little bit after pp.8-13.  With dampened powers, Gambit and Rogue decide to let nature take its course.

Later issues mention the events of this one as having them kissing. Right...

> X-Men #67 pp.1-7
> Monday morning EST.  Nighttime in Israel.  Sabra escapes a Sentinel ambush and leaves for the USA.

> Uncanny X-Men #349 pp.4-8, 12-14, 18-23
> Monday afternoon.  After a "night" together, Gambit and Rogue and the rest of the X-Men escape from Nanny, and Gambit willingly turns himself over to Spat and Grovel.

> Uncanny X-Men #350 pp.1-7, 9
> Monday evening.  Gambit is taken away by Spat and Grovel, and the X-Men begin to construct a craft to follow him.

> X-Men #67 pp.8-23
> X-Men #68 pp.1-19
> Monday, early evening.  Iceman seems to know that the X-Mansion has been breached, but not that it has been emptied.  Bastion is at the Hulkbuster base, taunting Xavier again.  Iceman and Cecelia are ambushed at Archangel's apartment.  Senator Kelly prepares to speak to the President.

Charlotte Jones also appears. In the later issue Iceman and Cecelia meet and join forces with Marrow.

> Uncanny X-Men #348 p.14
> Late Monday evening.  Archangel and Psylocke return to their apartment and find it covered with ice  placing this after Iceman's battle there in X #67.  Psylocke senses "darkness" atop the WTC, and teleports off to investigate.  Unfortunately, this scene can't occur during the rest of the issue.

> Uncanny X-Men #349 pp.1-3, 9-11, 15-17
> Uncanny X-Men #350 pp.8
> Late Monday evening  an art festival is being held beneath the WTC, so it's not TOO late at night.  Psylocke claims that she sensed Maggott "moments ago".  A short battle between Maggott and Psylocke and Archangel, ending with Psylocke teleporting them to Magneto's citadel in Antarctica.  Assuming her teleports are instantaneous, and they arrive in UX #350 p.15, then the whole Maggott/Archangel/Psylocke sequence from UX #348-350 probably takes place in the time gap between pp.9-10 of UX #350  which goes against a few narration boxes claiming things like "at that moment" and "earlier"  but who cares.

> Uncanny X-Men #350 pp.10-21
> Monday night.  The X-Men, including Psylocke, Archangel, and Maggott, reach Magneto's citadel and are captured and knocked unconscious, one by one.  Erik the Red prepares them for Gambit's "trial".

This particular version of Erik the Red is Erik Magnus Lehnsherr/Magneto in disguise. 

> X-Men #68 pp.20-23
> X-Men #69 pp.1-10
> Tuesday morning, sunrise in NYC.  Iceman, Marrow, and Cecelia are ambushed by Sentinels, and saved by Sabra.  Kelly has just spoken to the Senate, presumably after his meeting with the President, and the Executive Council has agreed to mobilize SHIELD.  Since we see an active SHIELD at night in W2 #118 after a daytime scene on the East Coast, that must place this scene at the cusp of sunup on the East Coast, still barely nighttime in New Mexico.  The poor Senate has apparently been up all hours the last few days.

> X-Men #69 pp.11-22
> Tuesday morning.  Iceman, Marrow, Cecelia, and Sabra arrive in Connecticut.  SHIELD arrives after their actions in NM early that morning, and arrests Bastion (last seen in New Mexico, who must have fled here).

Bastion introduces as to a old woman who has been as a mother to him. Any idea who she is?

> Uncanny X-Men #350 p.22
> Tuesday morning.  The X-Men in the captured OZT craft are over Philadelphia, en route to the X-Mansion.

> Uncanny X-Men #350 pp.23-36
> Tuesday morning.  The trial of Gambit, culminating in the rest of the X-Men leaving (presumably teleporting straight home via Psylocke, arriving in X #70) and leaving Gambit in the Antarctic.

Magneto also abandons the base. Gambit is going solo for a while.

> X-Men #70
> Tuesday morning, despite two references to it being a "weekend".  (Juggy's reference is a throwaway line, and Wolvie's been in prison or on the run since Sunday, and in Japan since the previous week, so he could easily have lost track of time.)  All the X-Men converge on the mansion and, in an impromptu bit of teamwork, defuse the bomb inside Scott.  The issue ends at night.

This seems to tie up the crossover as far as the X-Men and related characters are concerned. Any ideas how the events relate to events in Spider-Man and Thunderbolts issues of the time?

			*	*	*

Re: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
Posted by Jeph! on September 05, 2003 at 16:45:21:
In Reply to: Re: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
posted by Dimadick on September 05, 2003 at 12:47:12:

> Excelent work in making sense of a crossover with an apparently omnipresent Bastion.

Thanks.  Unraveling HIS chronology was one of the main reasons I did this.  My next step, once this has been up long enough to be picked over, is to list who appears where, and derive individual chronologies for them.

> But some comments and questions are I hope wellcome.

Always  but, since most of your notes were just additional synopsis points, I'm going to skip them and concentrate on questions you asked.

By the way, since you don't question my order on anything, can I assume that you agree with my ordering of events?  That's what I'd like feedback on the most

> > Uncanny X-Men #341

> That Christmas Eve reference in #341 always seemed to me a little awkward  Cannonball is going out to buy some Christmas presents for his family. Shopping on Christmas Eve in New York for his family in Kentucky? Talking about last minute shopper.

Well, you'll be happy to note that Paul plans to completely ignore that reference.  ;-)

> On a second note while walking Cannonball passes beside a rather moody man with a jacket hiding a black uniform with a very prominent skull on it. It seems to be Punisher making a cameo. Any idea where to place it in his chronology?

Not at all, not yet.

(By the way, that reminds me -- the Punisher and Wolverine both appear in ASM #337, walking down the street, in appearances that arent yet on the MCP.)

> > Uncanny X-Men #343
> > the X-Men have been in space for "nearly a week" since #342.

> Beast's narration while examining the comatose Deathbird  The week comment can be seen as an estimation.

Yeah  I'd assume that it just referred to how many times the X-Men had gone to sleep and woken up, an estimation based on their internal clocks. 

> The second seems to indicate that three days have passed since the last page of the previous issue when Bishop located Deathbird.

I thought that too, but no  reading UX #342, it becomes clear that there are no time gaps.  The whole thing takes place on the same day.  Plus, Deathbird is AWAKE when they find her at the end of #342  not comatose.  I would assume that she slipped into a coma a few days after they found her.

> > Uncanny X-Men #344
> > Wednesday or Thursday?

> Maybe you should allow for some time to pass between the finale and the next issue in order for them to be in condition to celebrate. 

Well, you yourself say that in #345 "Joseph and Gambit are still moody"  and Gambit is digging graves for the deceased, so it can't be MUCH later.  (More to the point, according to the calendar it can't be much later.  #343 takes place on Monday or Tuesday -- #345 on Friday and Saturday.  That leaves #344 to occur on Tuesday?, Wednesday, or Thursday.)  Is Wednesday morning good enough for you?

> > Uncanny X-Men #345 pp.1-13
> > Friday night to Saturday.

> That banquet is stated to have lasted through the night and to dawn

Yes, dawn on Chandilar  which, unfortunately, means nothing to us, earth-time.

> > X-Men #64 pp.19-22

> For some reason the first three pages of [X #65] have Phoenix teleported to Earth-Heroes Reborn when she has a short encounter with Iron-Man currently inhabiting it.

She's not "teleported" as such  she appears to have just projected herself there mentally.  There's no indication that she vanished from the X-Men's plane at any time, just that she was mentally attacked.

> In the Projects chronology of Iron-Man this occurs between Iron-Man II issues #8 and #9. It might offer clues on how to relate the events of both Earths to each other prior to Heroes Return.

Well, yes  if the MCP's placement is accurate.

> > Uncanny X-Men #346

> The only X-Man appearing on panel is Gambit and only in one page.

What, Marrow's not an X-Man?

> > Uncanny X-Men #348 pp.8-13

> Joseph also views a report about the initial battle between Spider-Man and Marrow and a statement of Moira MacTaggert. The later's face awakes in Joseph a sudden "thirst for revenge". I have no idea why. As far as I know they never met.

It's a leftover memory of Magneto's, from when he was angry at Moira in X #1-3.

> > X-Men #66

> The first page also features the first page of the Daily Bugle, apparently from the previous day. It mentions a battle between the Thunderbolts and X-Man. Any idea what event is referenced here?

It's not a battle between the T-Bolts and X-Man  it's two separate news stories.  One, a battle between the T-Bolts and the GROWING MAN, referencing TB #5; and a human interest story about "the psychic of Washington Square Park", referencing X-Man issues in the 20's.  (Of course, X-Man #30 ties directly into the OZT crossover.)

> > X-Men #69 pp.11-22

> Bastion introduces as to a old woman who has been as a mother to him. Any idea who she is?

I don't rememer her name offhand (Rose?), but she's shown again and in more detail in the "Cable / Machine Man" 1998 Annual.  She found and cared for Bastion after he came tumbling out of the Seige Perilous, newly human.

> Any ideas how the events relate to events in Spider-Man and Thunderbolts issues of the time?

Not really  we know it's after TB #5, but not how LONG after  and as for Spidey, the only thing I can find to tie down to him is Marvel Team-Up v2 #1, which takes place when Gen X is still in L.A.  meaning, between Gen X #31-32 and only a day or two after X #70, the end of the OZT crossover.  So, wherever M/TU2 #1 takes place in Spidey's chronology, his UX #346 appearance should take place a few days beforehand.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
Posted by Dimadick on September 06, 2003 at 04:15:36:
In Reply to: Re: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
posted by Jeph! on September 05, 2003 at 16:45:21:

> By the way, since you don't question my order on anything, can I assume that you agree with my ordering of events?  That's what I'd like feedback on the most

Well after revisiting the issues according to your listing the events seem to be in good order for the characters directly involved. On the other hand the Space-traveling X-Men time of arrival on Earth may suggest a slightly different order for them while having little to no affect on that of other characters.

Friday, nine days before the OZT attack. Uncanny X-Men #341 and Uncanny X-Men #342 pages 1 till 14. All on the same day. Rogue and Joseph have a date under a crescent moon for once. They are teleported along with Beast, Bishop, Gambit and Trish Tilby. Day 1 in space. With the exception of Trish they don't even have enough time to change from civilian clothes to uniforms. I assume the other X-Men efforts to locate them happen immediately after their dissapearance. I suggest that several hours pass till we next see them, leaving them time to adjust to their situation (ant to change clothes).

Saturday, eight days before the OZT attack. Uncanny X-Men #342 pages 15-23. Day 2 in space. The X-Men had time to change clothes, adjust to space traveling and in the last panel they discover the wounded Deathbird.

Sunday, seven days before the OZT attack. Day 3 in space. Events not depicted on panel.

Monday, six days before the OZT attack.  Day 4 in space. Events not depicted on panel.

Tuesday, five days before the OZT attack. The wounded Deathbird falls into a coma. Day 5 in space. Events not depicted on panel.

Wednesday, four days before the OZT attack. Deathbird in a coma for the second day. Day 6 in space. Events not depicted on panel.

Thursday , three days before the OZT attack - Uncanny X-Men #343(not the OZT scenes). Deathbird is in a coma for the third day. Day 7 in space. As soon as she awakes the X-Men start fighting the Phalanx in an attempt to reach Shandilar.

Friday, two days before OZT's attack. Uncanny X-Men #344. Day 8 in space. The X-Men's big victory over the Phalanx.(The entire Shi'ar Empire couldn't stop them but Beast, Bishop, Deathbird, Gambit, Joseph, Rogue and Trish Tilby were enough to exterminate them. Talking about suspension of disbelief). Trish celebrates victory under what seems to be a night sky. Deathbird and Lilandra are wounded. The next time we see them  it is evening and they seem to be in good shape. At least a day has passed in the meantime. I assume the banquet is set at the day after the battle.

Saturday, one day before OZT's attack. Uncanny X-Men #345 pp.6-13. Day 9 in space. Lilandra oversees repairs in the capital under a Sun that seems to be setting. The banquet begins at night and lasts till early in the morning. The X-Men are scheduled to leave as soon as they wake up.

Sunday, on the day of OZT's attack- Uncanny X-Men #345 pp.14-25. Day 10 and last in space. Events start when the X-Men awake early in the morning after getting some sleep and several hours of journey pass till they are attacked. It has the curious effect that both squads of X-Men are shot down at the same day. Gambit is the first X-Man to wake up on Earth at about the time Callisto and Marrow meet Spider-Man more than an hour after the other squad is attacked.

Does it seem reasonable as a timetable for this space-traveling adventure? And by the way Cannonball's thoughts reflect on the recent murder of Graydon Creed in X-Factor #130. Any idea of how recent that event was at the time?

> (By the way, that reminds me -- the Punisher and Wolverine both appear in ASM #337, walking down the street, in appearances that arent yet on the MCP.)

That issue was published with a cover date of August, 1990 as part 4 of the "Return of the Sinister Six". Had Punisher and/or Wolverine any meetings with Spider-Man, Doctor Octopus, Electro, Hobgoblin, Mysterio, Sandman and Vulture at that time? Any ideas of what our lethal duo was preoccupied with at the time?

> > In the Projects chronology of Iron-Man this occurs between Iron-Man II issues #8 and #9. It might offer clues on how to relate the events of both Earths to each other prior to Heroes Return.

> Well, yes  if the MCP's placement is accurate.

It seems a good time to place it. Stark and Richards have contact in Iron-Man II #9. They meet again in civilian clothing at Fantastic Four II #8 but I have that issue and Stark does not mention the Phoenix incident.

> > > Uncanny X-Men #346

> > The only X-Man appearing on panel is Gambit and only in one page.

> What, Marrow's not an X-Man?

Well technicaly she doesn't join the team till after this crossover.

> > Any ideas how the events relate to events in Spider-Man and Thunderbolts issues of the time?

> Not really  we know it's after TB #5, but not how LONG after  and as for Spidey, the only thing I can find to tie down to him is Marvel Team-Up v2 #1, which takes place when Gen X is still in L.A.  meaning, between Gen X #31-32 and only a day or two after X #70, the end of the OZT crossover.  So, wherever M/TU2 #1 takes place in Spidey's chronology, his UX #346 appearance should take place a few days beforehand.

The events of that issue indeed take place in Los Angeles but the only members of Generation X appearing are Chamber, Husk and Skin. Where would the others be at the time?

This is only the first part of a five-part storyline for Spidey. In the next issue he travels to Crete, Greece along with Hercules. Next he leaves Crete for London, UK with Sandman, receiving an assignment by Silver Sable in exchange for the transport. Then the mysterious person sending him on these missions reveals to him the real "threat". Man-Thing, "reconstructed after he was discorporated in Heroes Reborn: The Return #1"). Finaly Spidey faces this mysterious benefactor revealed as Tito Mendesz/The Authority. After the battle Uatu the Watcher shows up to claim the spoils of victory.

Placing of the story seems to require a look in the chronology of Man-Thing. Other than that Marvel Team Up II #1-#5 doesn't seem to provide many clues.

			*	*	*

Re: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 06, 2003 at 06:48:07:
In Reply to: Re: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
posted by Dimadick on September 06, 2003 at 04:15:36:

> And by the way Cannonball's thoughts reflect on the recent murder of Graydon Creed in X-Factor #130. Any idea of how recent that event was at the time?

By my tentative reckoning, a few weeks earlier, on election eve (the first Monday in November).

			*	*	*

Re: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
Posted by Jeph! on September 07, 2003 at 00:00:18:
In Reply to: Re: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
posted by Dimadick on September 06, 2003 at 04:15:36:

> after revisiting the issues according to your listing the events seem to be in good order for the characters directly involved.

Yay!

> On the other hand the Space-traveling X-Men time of arrival on Earth may suggest a slightly different order for them while having little to no affect on that of other characters.

Well, since it has no effect on the other characters, as you say -- sure, why not?

The way I derived placement for UXM #341-345 is as follows:

1) In Gen-X #28/2, which is explicitly the same day and hour as X #65, Daria says Jubilee has been prisoner at the Hulkbuster base for "almost a week".

2)  In Gen-X #25 we saw Jubilee's capture -- in Uncanny #343 we saw her taken by Bastion for "processing" -- and in Gen-X #26 we saw her arrival at the Hulkbuster base.  Due to in-book evidence these issues must all take place on the same day -- Monday or Tuesday, "almost a week" before Gen-X #28/2.

3)  [Assumption.]  The Jubilee scene in UX #343 takes place at the same time as the X-Men's storyline.  If true, then all of UX #343 is on the Monday/Tuesday.

4)  In UX #343, the Beast says they've been in space for "about a week" -- so UX #341-342, where they're ambushed into space, should take place on a Tuesday or Wednesday, 11-12 days before Gen-X #28/2 and X #65.

You say nine days before -- I say 11-12 -- really, who cares.  (Answer: Paul Bourcier.)

> by the way Cannonball's thoughts reflect on the recent murder of Graydon Creed in X-Factor #130. Any idea of how recent that event was at the time?

Pretty recent.  Between UX #340 and X #60-61.

> [Re: ASM #337]  Had Punisher and/or Wolverine any meetings with Spider-Man, Doctor Octopus, Electro, Hobgoblin, Mysterio, Sandman and Vulture at that time?

Beats me.  Punny appeared in ASM #330-331, so you could try to cross-index that with his own book.

> > > In the Projects chronology of Iron-Man this occurs between Iron-Man II issues #8 and #9.

> It seems a good time to place it.

Well -- in terms of the "real" MU, X #70 apparently takes place two days after X #65, where Jean crossed over.  Then, UX #351 takes place six days after X #70 and X #71 takes place the day before UX #351.  And the heroes return in X #71.

Therefore, only a week passes between Iron Man's meeting with Jean Grey and "Heroes Return" #4.

Can issues #9-13 of all four HR titles, plus the HR miniseries, occur in a week?

Alternately, is there a chance that time moves differently inside Franklin's little blue ball?

> Well technicaly she doesn't join the team till after this crossover.

> > > Any ideas how the events relate to events in Spider-Man and Thunderbolts issues of the time?

> wherever M/TU2 #1 takes place in Spidey's chronology, his UX #346 appearance should take place a few days beforehand.

> The events of that issue indeed take place in Los Angeles but the only members of Generation X appearing are Chamber, Husk and Skin. Where would the others be at the time?

Well, if this is after Gen-X #31 (and it should be), M has recently split into two little girls, and Synch is probably watching over them.

> This is only the first part of a five-part storyline for Spidey ... Man-Thing, "reconstructed after he was discorporated in Heroes Reborn: The Return #1").

That still seems workable ... issue #1 can still occur a day or two after the end of Gen X #31 (on a Tues-Wed), and issue #4 can still occur after the events of Heroes Return (a Sunday) ... right?

On the other hand, Spidey appeared in the HR miniseries.  So if M/TU2 #1-5 are *completely* unbroken, then either the whole thing has to be tossed after HR #4, or the Man-Thing HR reference needs to be ignored, and the whole thing tossed BEFORE HR #1.

And now we're getting WAY out of the area of my expertise -- M/TU2 #1 is the only issue I have out of anything we're discussing.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 07, 2003 at 08:56:18:
In Reply to: Re: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
posted by Jeph! on September 07, 2003 at 00:00:18:

> Can issues #9-13 of all four HR titles, plus the HR miniseries, occur in a week?

Good question.  My collection of HR titles is spotty.  Can someone examine the passage of time in the HR titles and get back to us?

Time MAY pass at a different rate in Franklin's little blue ball, but it would be good to get more data.

I'm trying to squeeze all of HR into a period of a "few months" (mentioned in ASM 430).  We have temporal references in the Crossing (before OMU) to the Avengers' anniversary (early Sept.) and we have the Christmas references in stories after HR:R.

Can this be done?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
Posted by Dimadick on September 07, 2003 at 11:39:42:
In Reply to: Re: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 07, 2003 at 08:56:18:

> > Can issues #9-13 of all four HR titles, plus the HR miniseries, occur in a week?

> Good question.  My collection of HR titles is spotty.  Can someone examine the passage of time in the HR titles and get back to us?

> Time MAY pass at a different rate in Franklin's little blue ball, but it would be good to get more data.

> I'm trying to squeeze all of HR into a period of a "few months" (mentioned in ASM 430).  We have temporal references in the Crossing (before OMU) to the Avengers' anniversary (early Sept.) and we have the Christmas references in stories after HR:R.

> Can this be done?

Your placement of Christmas occurs before or after Amazing Spider-Man #430? Does that take into account Amazing Spider-Man #420? In that issue Peter and Mary Jane Watson Parker have Christmas Eve dinner at home with their guest Nate Grey.

Spider-Man and Nate also spent Christmas day together in X-Man #24 when the later is bitten by Dr. Michael Morbius. This directly leads to Spidey hunting down Morbius and facing him in Spider-Man #77. They fight again in Spider-Man #78 which occurs the following day while it snowing heavily in New York. Four issues which seem to be part of the same storyline.

On the other hand Sensational Spider-Man #24 has Spider-Man fighting Hydro-Man on Christmas Eve.

Both storylines feature Peter doing some last minute shoping, searching for a gift to offer his wife but they don't seem to start on the same "Christmas Eve".

So do they fit in your placement of Christmas or are they just causing problems for it?

			*	*	*

Re: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 07, 2003 at 14:00:55:
In Reply to: Re: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
posted by Dimadick on September 07, 2003 at 11:39:42:

> Your placement of Christmas occurs before or after Amazing Spider-Man #430? Does that take into account Amazing Spider-Man #420? In that issue Peter and Mary Jane Watson Parker have Christmas Eve dinner at home with their guest Nate Grey.

> Spider-Man and Nate also spent Christmas day together in X-Man #24 when the later is bitten by Dr. Michael Morbius. This directly leads to Spidey hunting down Morbius and facing him in Spider-Man #77. They fight again in Spider-Man #78 which occurs the following day while it snowing heavily in New York. Four issues which seem to be part of the same storyline.

> On the other hand Sensational Spider-Man #24 has Spider-Man fighting Hydro-Man on Christmas Eve.

> Both storylines feature Peter doing some last minute shoping, searching for a gift to offer his wife but they don't seem to start on the same "Christmas Eve".

> So do they fit in your placement of Christmas or are they just causing problems for it?

I tentatively place ASM 430 four days before the Christmas Eve in SENSM 24.  This is the Christmas that follows Heroes Return.  The Christmas reference you mention in XM 24 may end up being topical -- it probably won't end up being an entire year before SENSM 24.  This the the problem when Marvel publishes Christmas stories in continuity in two or more consecutive "real time" years; some of the references will end up being topical, given the slower movement of MU time.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
Posted by Dimadick on September 07, 2003 at 10:22:17:
In Reply to: Re: OPERATION: ZERO TOLERANCE ... Jeph's crossover map
posted by Jeph! on September 07, 2003 at 00:00:18:

> Well, since it has no effect on the other characters, as you say -- sure, why not?

> 3)  [Assumption.]  The Jubilee scene in UX #343 takes place at the same time as the X-Men's storyline.  If true, then all of UX #343 is on the Monday/Tuesday.

On the other hand I made the assumption that this subplot scene is somewhat out of sequence and so looked only to internal references for the order of scenes in the X-Men's storyline. Either way the main plot and the sublot don't seem to interact , so our assumptions are not necessarily valid. At least they explain are somewhat different readings of the storyline.

> You say nine days before -- I say 11-12 -- really, who cares.  (Answer: Paul Bourcier.)

True. No particular need to carry an argument.

> > > > In the Projects chronology of Iron-Man this occurs between Iron-Man II issues #8 and #9.

> > It seems a good time to place it.

> Well -- in terms of the "real" MU, X #70 apparently takes place two days after X #65, where Jean crossed over.  Then, UX #351 takes place six days after X #70 and X #71 takes place the day before UX #351.  And the heroes return in X #71.

> Therefore, only a week passes between Iron Man's meeting with Jean Grey and "Heroes Return" #4.

> Can issues #9-13 of all four HR titles, plus the HR miniseries, occur in a week?

> Alternately, is there a chance that time moves differently inside Franklin's little blue ball?

Possibly the later would serve as an answer, but judging from the Fantastic Four issues of the time events were moving at a fast pace. The events of said issue #8 happen over a single day and mark their "first meeting" with the Inhumans and it ends with the FF arriving at the laters' Refuge. In issue #9, that probably occurs the following day, the FF and Inhumans offer explanations over their actions to each other and join forces. The issue ends with them meeting Maximus the Mad. In issue #10 the battle between Maximus and Black Bolt, joined by their respective allies continues directly from the previous issue and after the later's success they have a banquet. They are returned to New York the following day. In issue #11 they are still in New York when Galactus' heralds start arriving and preparing for his own arrival as predicted by Maximus in the previous issue. Issue #12 is the first of the "Heroes Reunited" crossover which runs through issues #12 of all four HR titles and features their battle with Galactus. Issue #13 and last of the title is the first part of the World War III crossover which runs through issues #13 of all four HR titles and features a temporary merger of their world with that of Image. This doesn't seems to leave much space between issues and storylines.

> > wherever M/TU2 #1 takes place in Spidey's chronology, his UX #346 appearance should take place a few days beforehand.

> > The events of that issue indeed take place in Los Angeles but the only members of Generation X appearing are Chamber, Husk and Skin. Where would the others be at the time?

> Well, if this is after Gen-X #31 (and it should be), M has recently split into two little girls, and Synch is probably watching over them.

> > This is only the first part of a five-part storyline for Spidey ... Man-Thing, "reconstructed after he was discorporated in Heroes Reborn: The Return #1").

> That still seems workable ... issue #1 can still occur a day or two after the end of Gen X #31 (on a Tues-Wed), and issue #4 can still occur after the events of Heroes Return (a Sunday) ... right?

> On the other hand, Spidey appeared in the HR miniseries.  So if M/TU2 #1-5 are *completely* unbroken, then either the whole thing has to be tossed after HR #4, or the Man-Thing HR reference needs to be ignored, and the whole thing tossed BEFORE HR #1.

> And now we're getting WAY out of the area of my expertise -- M/TU2 #1 is the only issue I have out of anything we're discussing.

Between issues #1 and #2 Spidey seems to have returned to New York and only finds out that he has to go to Crete after he reads a message posted for him in the papers. So there seems to be some time passing between the two issues . Issue #3 continues directly from the previous one but there seems to be time passing between it and #4 as well. So Spidey should have time for some activities between those issues while he waits for the next message. Thankfuly Spider. Fan has relatively detailed summaries of those issues. See:http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/title/marvel_teamup_v2.html

By the way issue Marvel Team-Up II #6 has an interesting guest-star for Spidey. Namor the Sub-Mariner suffering from amnesia following his "recent" return from the HR Universe. So this series' first six issues seem to happen during the relatively brief period between the end of Zero Tolerance and the aftermath of the Heroes Return series.

			*	*	*

Synopsis for MTU2 7?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 03, 2003 at 22:22:55:

Can someone provide me with a synopsis for Marvel Team-Up, Vol.2 #7 -- brief plot summary, character list, temporal references?  Is this, per chance, a Christmas story?

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Synopsis for MTU2 7?
Posted by RLG on September 04, 2003 at 11:11:53:
In Reply to: Synopsis for MTU2 7?
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 03, 2003 at 22:22:55:

MARVEL TEAM-UP (vol.2) #7 - March 1998
"Sun-Walkers!"

CHARACTERS: 
Blade (appears after BLADE:CRESCENT CITY)
Spider-Man
Jose Lopez - ESU janitor; dies in this story
Henry Sage - A "sun-walking" vampire
Sgt.Frank Gannon - Riker's Island guard working with Blade
Mary Jane Parker
Maria Lopez - Jose's widow
Antonio Lopez - Jose's young son
Salma Lopez - Jose's young daughter
Five unnamed scientists - working with Blade in New Orleans (Note: someone with more knowledge on Blade than me might be able to ID them)
Dracula (flashback only; Austria, in 1794, kills Henry Sage's wife and children and transforms him into a vampire.)
Sage's wife and two children (flashback only as corpses; possible names for two of them would be Lenora & Sarah as seen on the tombstones of the past panel of this story)

SYNOPSIS:  5:21am.  Blade silently tracks a vampire (Henry Sage) to the ESU Science Center.  Blade allows the vampire to enter. He waits, in a tree, for the vampire to exit the building with "the formula."

    Meanwhile,  Peter Parker is working inside the Science Center on a Chem paper due in three hours.  Exhausted by chasing down a killer all night, he drifts off to sleep.  He is awoken by his friend Jose, the janitor.  Jose makes his way to a nearby lab room and is startled by the vampire. Sage uses a syringe on himself and injects a serum into his neck.  The vampire then attacks and kills Jose.  Hearing Jose's death-screams, Peter (as Spider-Man) rushes to the scene.  Angered at the death of his friend, Spider-Man chases Sage out of the building and into the quad area.  Outside, the sun has risen, but the vampire seems unaffected.  From his vantage point in the tree, Blade silently watches as Spider-Man defeats the vampire and webs him up for the police.

     Later, Sage vainly tries to bust out of his cell at Riker's Island.  The sunlight streaming in from the window does not kill him, but it is extremely painfull.  Sgt.Gannon lets Blade into Sage's cell and they smuggle the vampire out of prison.

     At noontime, Blade attempts to torture the vampire by staking him to the ground as the sun beats down on him.  Blade tries unsuccessfully to learn the secret of the Sage's ability to sun-walk.  Blade decides to take the vampire back to New Orleans to dissect the secret out of him.  The vampire seems to welcome the prospect of death.

    Peter and Mary Jane attend Jose's funeral.  That night, while watching TV, they learn of Blade's involvement in the prison break-out.  Remembering that Dr.Strange recently told him that Blade is based in New Orleans, Peter tells Mary Jane goodbye and is soon swinging through town.  As Spider-Man, he locates a truck with Louisiana tags and hitches a ride on the backside.

     As Blade and Sage near New Orleans, Blade briefly explains his origin, thus, his motivation for becoming a Vampire-Hunter. Blade is shocked to find that the serum Sage took at ESU, not only gives the vampire the ability to sun-walk, but also has reawakened the monster's memories of his once human life.

     Spider-Man arrives in New Orleans at night and begins his search for Blade.  Meanwhile, in a warehouse lab, five scientists examine Sage as Blade looks on.  The vampire tells the story of how he was once Henry Sage and of how Dracula killed his family in Austria 200 years ago.  Just then, Spider-Man bursts into the warehouse and knocks Blade down.  In the confusion, Sage escapes, but not before Spider-Man places a Spider-tracer on him.

     Spider-Man and Blade track Sage to a cemetary.  Blade tells Spider-Man the story of a noted 1930's chemist, Dr.Theodore Jackson, who specialized in blood disorders.  The vampires took Dr.Jackson and transformed him into one of them.  For seventy years, Dr.Jackson has been working on a serum for the vampires, one which will give them the ability to sun-walk.  Nearing completion, Dr.Jackson needed a special compound recently invented by Professor Gerard Jurwich - the Dean of ESU's science department.

     Suddenly, Sage appears atop a tombstone and confirms Blade's story.  He adds that Dr.Jackson has been experimenting with sun-walker formula on him for years.  The formula has worked too well, giving Sage enough of his humanity back, so much so that his current existence is constant torture.  To force Blade's hand, Sage lashes out at Spider-Man.  Blade kills the vampire with his sword.  As Sage disentegrates (atop his own tombstone), he thanks Blade for giving him his final peace.

COMMENTS: 
 1.) The grass and leaves are green at the ESU campus, as well the cemetary where Jose is buried.

 2.) No overt reference to Christmas is given.  Peter's Chem paper might be something that is due before the hoilday break.

 3.) Distance from NYC to New Orleans - approx. 1150 miles (roughly a 17 to 19 hour trip.)  It is possible that Spider-Man arrived in New Orleans 25-30 hours after hitching a ride (factoring the probability that the trucker spent the night somewhere along the way.)

 4.)  As Spider-Man arrives in New Orleans, the moon is in the sky.  Unfortunately, it is partially covered by his thought-balloon.  It does appear to be full.

 5.) If Henry Sage's family were killed by Dracula in Austria in 1794, it seen unlikely that their (and his) graves (page 22, last panel) are in the New Orleans cemetary.

Hope this helps, 
 - RLG

			*	*	*

Re: Synopsis for MTU2 7?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 04, 2003 at 14:12:57:
In Reply to: Re: Synopsis for MTU2 7?
posted by RLG on September 04, 2003 at 11:11:53:

Thanks much, RLG!  This indeed helps tremendously, and leads me to believe the MCP is incorrect in the placement of this issue.

--Paul

			*	*	*

JLA/Avengers #1
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 05, 2003 at 10:05:10:

Okay, so the first obvious question: is it canon?  Thus far, I'm assuming that it is; it's doing the "travel between universes" routine, after all, and it goes out of its way to reference numerous continuity points.  It's a little out of date, but then it's been in gestation for a long time.

I don't see any insuperable problems to it taking place around the end of the Busiek run on Avengers... any thoughts?

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Re: JLA/Avengers #1
Posted by Jeph! on September 05, 2003 at 12:06:35:
In Reply to: JLA/Avengers #1
posted by Paul O'Brien on September 05, 2003 at 10:05:10:

I'm wondering why neither party seems to remember the LAST time they met; in "DC vs Marvel" -- which ALSO did the "travel between universes" routine, and should therefore also be canon...

-Jeph!

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Re: Dc vs Marvel
Posted by Dimadick on September 05, 2003 at 13:48:13:
In Reply to: Re: JLA/Avengers #1
posted by Jeph! on September 05, 2003 at 12:06:35:

Remember the last pages of DC vs Marvel #4? According to it the superheroes of both world never understood what happened, some of them grieved over their losses. Others contacted the Gods seeking answers but those who were gods couldn't give them.

Well if they couldn't even grasp the concept of the event they could have forgotten about it over time. Wolverine can't be the only one puting traumatic events behid him. The story did said that the only one holding the truth of the event is Access/Axel Asher , originaly resident of the Marvel Universe and since then traveling between them. Here is a profile of him with comments:http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/accessam.htm

In any case DC vs Marvel #1 was published with a cover date of December, 1995. Any ideas of how would it relate to events in Marvel titles of the time?

Issue #1 featured Spider-Man/Ben Reilly claiming he loves New York and thinking that returning to it was a good idea.

Transported suddenly in Gotham he meets the Joker who recognizes him and comments on his change of uniform. Spider-Man does noot recognize him.

Also featured are the X-Men Wolverine, Storm and Gambit in battle with the Juggernaut. They all mention to have been in battle before.

Captain America/Steve Rogers is featured in battle with Hydra under the Statue of Liberty.

Hulk/Robert Bruce Banner and his wife Betty Ross Banner are enjoying some time together apparently happy that Hulk is now inteligent.

The X-Men report the dissapearance of Juggernaut to Professor Charles Francis Xavier. Present are Wolverine, Storm, Gambit from before joined by Beast, Cyclops, Phoenix  and Psylocke.

Helectra, Thor, Silver Surfer, Sub-Mariner, Quicksilver are picked in random scenes with no references.

Bullseye is depicted as getting knocked out with a single punch by Batman.

Jubilee and Husk meet Robin whe he is teleported to their Academy.

J. Jonah Jameson is depicted as the new editor of the Daily Planet.

Characters apearing in cameos fighting against DC characters include Absorbing Man, Green Goblin, Daredevil, Venom, Dr. Doom, Punisher, Ghost Rider, Human Torch II, Thing and Annihilus.

Characters appearing in cameos joining DC characters include Dr. Stephen Strange, Archangel and She-Hulk/

The issue finishes with the Living Tribunal and Spectre finding out about the Brothers.

So if you insist on including that issue in continiuty any ideas for a placement for it?

			*	*	*

Re: Dc vs Marvel
Posted by Jeph! on September 05, 2003 at 16:20:00:
In Reply to: Re: Dc vs Marvel
posted by Dimadick on September 05, 2003 at 13:48:13:

> Remember the last pages of DC vs Marvel #4? According to it the superheroes of both world never understood what happened, some of them grieved over their losses. Others contacted the Gods seeking answers but those who were gods couldn't give them.

> Well if they couldn't even grasp the concept of the event they could have forgotten about it over time. Wolverine can't be the only one puting traumatic events behid him.

I don't know as "battling folks from another world" could be considered "traumatic".  Most heroes tend to do it all the time.

I'd go along with the notion that, in the case of rationalizing ANY inter-company crossover, some cosmic higher power causes all parties involved to forget the events of the dimensional intersection -- but simply claiming that the Avengers would FORGET about meeting such people as Superman and Batman, because the events were "traumatic" -- well, that's just goofy.  More than likely, they'd try to keep detailed records of what they'd just experienced.

Give me a good old-fashioned Infinity Gauntlet-style mindwipe any day.

> So if you insist on including that issue in continiuty any ideas for a placement for it?

I don't "insist" on putting DC vs Marvel in continuity -- and I'm curious why you'd use the word "insist", given that this whole thread is speculating about placing ANOTHER DC/Marvel crossover.

I'm just asking why people are so eager to put "JLA vs Avengers" into continuity, when it seems to ignore the events of "DC vs Marvel" -- which is just as "canon" as JLA vs Avengers.

Why one over the other?  Why not both?  Or neither?

-Jeph!

PS - you want a continuity reference from JLA/Avengers #1 -- it's after X #115, as Genosha has already been destroyed.

			*	*	*

Re: Dc vs Marvel
Posted by Dimadick on September 05, 2003 at 16:57:49:
In Reply to: Re: Dc vs Marvel
posted by Jeph! on September 05, 2003 at 16:20:00:

> > Remember the last pages of DC vs Marvel #4? According to it the superheroes of both world never understood what happened, some of them grieved over their losses. Others contacted the Gods seeking answers but those who were gods couldn't give them.

> > Well if they couldn't even grasp the concept of the event they could have forgotten about it over time. Wolverine can't be the only one puting traumatic events behid him.

> I don't know as "battling folks from another world" could be considered "traumatic".  Most heroes tend to do it all the time.

Traumatic for theim minds to grasp that they are incomplete. Physicaly most of them appeared in good shape. Actualy emotionaly Thanos seem to have enjoyed the event. Go figure.

> I don't "insist" on putting DC vs Marvel in continuity -- and I'm curious why you'd use the word "insist", given that this whole thread is speculating about placing ANOTHER DC/Marvel crossover.

"Insist" was not intended as an insult. I remember seeing you mention a possible inclusion of the series in chronologie before but I thought you had given up on the idea. Since crossovers from about that time period including the Zero Tolerance, the Onslaught Saga and the Crossing would appear as targets for revisiting in the near future this just seems a good time to adress the matter. 

> I'm just asking why people are so eager to put "JLA vs Avengers" into continuity, when it seems to ignore the events of "DC vs Marvel" -- which is just as "canon" as JLA vs Avengers.

Its promotion as a big event probably has something to do with it. I have no idea why people would want to shove the old series under the carpet. Though four issues were perhaps too few to better explore the appearing characters and the concepts suggested it is enjoyable enough with a straight-forward approach to events depicted.

> Why one over the other?  Why not both?  Or neither?

Good questions and as always to the point.

			*	*	*

Re: JLA/Avengers and DC vs Marvel
Posted by Jim on September 09, 2003 at 22:36:43:
In Reply to: Re: Dc vs Marvel
posted by Dimadick on September 05, 2003 at 16:57:49:

> > > Remember the last pages of DC vs Marvel #4? According to it the superheroes of both world never understood what happened, some of them grieved over their losses. Others contacted the Gods seeking answers but those who were gods couldn't give them.

> > > Well if they couldn't even grasp the concept of the event they could have forgotten about it over time. Wolverine can't be the only one puting traumatic events behid him.

> > I don't know as "battling folks from another world" could be considered "traumatic".  Most heroes tend to do it all the time.

> Traumatic for theim minds to grasp that they are incomplete. Physicaly most of them appeared in good shape. Actualy emotionaly Thanos seem to have enjoyed the event. Go figure.

This is probably as likely a reason as any for the apparent discrepancy we are seeing, but, just in case the whole thing wasn't confusing enough already...

Notice that Supes and Cap seem to be suffering some sort of mental manipulation...there's nothing to suggest that this isn't happening all around in some sort of "make them all forget DC vs. Marvel so that we can manipulate things further heh heh heh" (I'm pointing at the Grandmaster and Metron here).

Hawkeye seems to be remembering DC vs. Marvel (is he?) saying, "You know, there was something familiar about them..." and, "I swear, there's something...its on the tip of my - "

Of course, that could have all been the build-up for the Squadron Supreme joke (or was it?).

> > Why one over the other?  Why not both?  Or neither?

> Good questions and as always to the point.

Either way, at least there's two possible ways it could be both.

1.They forgot DC vs. Marvel right after it happened.

2.They are being made to forget now.

Jim

			*	*	*

Re: JLA/Avengers and DC vs Marvel
Posted by Dimadick on September 10, 2003 at 04:04:03:
In Reply to: Re: JLA/Avengers and DC vs Marvel
posted by Jim on September 09, 2003 at 22:36:43:

> Notice that Supes and Cap seem to be suffering some sort of mental manipulation...there's nothing to suggest that this isn't happening all around in some sort of "make them all forget DC vs. Marvel so that we can manipulate things further heh heh heh" (I'm pointing at the Grandmaster and Metron here).

Hmmm... they were among the main compatants of DC vs Marvel with Superman knocking out the Hulk and Captain America getting knocked out and then saved from drowning by Batman. The later two guys were apparently responsible for saving the day by teaching the Brothers the concept of being one among many and still being unique. According to the final pages of issue #4 though Mr. Kent is among those who never grasped what happened. The only was supposently retaining a glimpse of the truth were Mr. Rogers and Mr. Wayne. Any reactions by them uppon seing each other again?

> Hawkeye seems to be remembering DC vs. Marvel (is he?) saying, "You know, there was something familiar about them..." and, "I swear, there's something...its on the tip of my - "

> Of course, that could have all been the build-up for the Squadron Supreme joke (or was it?).

Hawkeye? That is a bit surprising. His only appearance throughout the DC vs Marvel series was a cameo in a splash page of issue #3 featuring many other characters. He is seen as apparently testing his archery skills against Green Arrow/Connor Hawke.

> > > Why one over the other?  Why not both?  Or neither?

> > Good questions and as always to the point.

> Either way, at least there's two possible ways it could be both.

> 1.They forgot DC vs. Marvel right after it happened.

> 2.They are being made to forget now.

Possible. Although not many of them need to have had memories they need to forget. The main participants of the DC vs Marvel series were only a handfull and their connections with either JLA or the Avengers are not very close for several of them.

For Marvel:Captain America, Electra, Hulk, Jubilee, Quicksilver, Silver Surfer, Spider-Man II, Storm, Sub-Mariner, Thor, Wolverine.

For DC:Aquaman, Batman, Captain Marvel, Catwoman, Flash, Green Lantern, Lobo, Robin, Superboy, Superman, Wonder Woman.

How many of them happen to be involved in the JLA/Avengers crossover? Any reference to the rest of them?

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Re: JLA/Avengers and DC vs Marvel
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 10, 2003 at 20:19:25:
In Reply to: Re: JLA/Avengers and DC vs Marvel
posted by Dimadick on September 10, 2003 at 04:04:03:

> > Notice that Supes and Cap seem to be suffering some sort of mental manipulation...there's nothing to suggest that this isn't happening all around in some sort of "make them all forget DC vs. Marvel so that we can manipulate things further heh heh heh" (I'm pointing at the Grandmaster and Metron here).

Good potential clue there.

> > Hawkeye seems to be remembering DC vs. Marvel (is he?) saying, "You know, there was something familiar about them..." and, "I swear, there's something...its on the tip of my - "

> > Of course, that could have all been the build-up for the Squadron Supreme joke (or was it?).

> For Marvel:Captain America, Electra, Hulk, Jubilee, Quicksilver, Silver Surfer, Spider-Man II, Storm, Sub-Mariner, Thor, Wolverine.

> For DC:Aquaman, Batman, Captain Marvel, Catwoman, Flash, Green Lantern, Lobo, Robin, Superboy, Superman, Wonder Woman.

> How many of them happen to be involved in the JLA/Avengers crossover? Any reference to the rest of them?

Out of your list, we have the following in JLA/Avengers --
Marvel: Cap, Quicksilver, and Thor
DC: Aquaman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern, Superman, Wonder Woman

--Paul

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Re: JLA/Avengers and DC vs Marvel
Posted by Mr Scrod on October 06, 2003 at 16:44:07:
In Reply to: Re: JLA/Avengers and DC vs Marvel
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 10, 2003 at 20:19:25:

The crowd of normal humans seemed to recognize the Avengers, almost-- "Are you the JSA? You're too old to be Teen Titans."

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Re: JLA/Avengers and DC vs Marvel
Posted by eugenio abraham  on November 22, 2003 at 04:30:05:
In Reply to: Re: JLA/Avengers and DC vs Marvel
posted by Mr Scrod on October 06, 2003 at 16:44:07:

They not recognize the Avengers!! peple was talking about the JSA Justice Society of America : the precursor of the JLA on the DC universe. 

The people claming on the avengers was only a way to show the diferences between the 2 universes , on the marvel universe people could have cry and regreat on the avengers, while on the DC unuverse the people are most kind with superheros.

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Re: JLA/Avengers and DC vs Marvel
Posted by eugenio abraham on November 22, 2003 at 04:19:58:
In Reply to: Re: JLA/Avengers and DC vs Marvel
posted by Dimadick on September 10, 2003 at 04:04:03:

Busiek and Perez said that this crosover has NOTHING to do with either: current histories and specially the Marvel vs DC crosover.

The Hawkeye comment was a reference to the Squadron Supreme (which is a parody of the JLA).

there is a "oficial" page for this event, where Perez and Busiek put material and comments before the issues hit the stores, also has links to comments and references for the first two issues (there are a lot of them!!) and for the cover of the number 3.

http://vu.morrissey-solo.com/moz/perez/info/jla-avengers3.htm

> For Marvel:Captain America, Electra, Hulk, Jubilee, Quicksilver, Silver Surfer, Spider-Man II, Storm, Sub-Mariner, Thor, Wolverine.

> For DC:Aquaman, Batman, Captain Marvel, Catwoman, Flash, Green Lantern, Lobo, Robin, Superboy, Superman, Wonder Woman.

> How many of them happen to be involved in the JLA/Avengers crossover? Any reference to the rest of them?

			*	*	*

Re: JLA/Avengers #1
Posted by SKleefeld on September 05, 2003 at 12:36:34:
In Reply to: JLA/Avengers #1
posted by Paul O'Brien on September 05, 2003 at 10:05:10:

> Okay, so the first obvious question: is it canon?  Thus far, I'm assuming that it is; it's doing the "travel between universes" routine, after all, and it goes out of its way to reference numerous continuity points.  It's a little out of date, but then it's been in gestation for a long time.

> I don't see any insuperable problems to it taking place around the end of the Busiek run on Avengers... any thoughts?

I've read the book, and haven't done too much in the way of detailed analysis yet, but I do see some potential issues. Here's what I came up with based on some old notes...

Yellowjacket. Must be after Avengers #45
Thor. Must be before Thor #32 where he goes through the death-of-Odin-and-assume-the-throne bit
Hawkeye. Recall that Hawkeye was in jail from Thunderbolts #50 until Thunderbolts #54, after which point he's stuck with the so-called "Chain Gang." While it's not expressly said one way or another in JLA/Avengers the implication from Cap's comment is that Hawkeye came of his own free will.

Barring more evidence from future issues of JLA/Avengers or more close scrutiny of Iron Man's armor, I'd put this between Avengers #55 and the flashback in #56. Bascially, right around the same time frame we're looking at for the early part of The Order and/or Spider-Man: Sweet Charity.

-- Sean

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Re: JLA/Avengers #1
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 05, 2003 at 20:58:08:
In Reply to: >Re: JLA/Avengers #1
posted by SKleefeld on September 05, 2003 at 12:36:34:

You're not going to believe this, but I was just about to type the JLA/Avengers #1 entry into the calendar right between A3 55 and A3 56-FB (on May 25), when I thought I'd check the forum to see if anyone was posting about this!

That should tell you I'm considering JLA/Avengers canon until proven otherwise.  I also consider DC Vs. Marvel canon.  And I'm willing to bet Mr. Busiek will supply that explanation about why the two teams don't recognize each other.  He IS a stickler for continuity.

Sidebar note: I may end up pushing Sweet Charity later, given my re-evaluation of Spidey's chronology.  More later.

--Paul

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Re: JLA/Avengers #1
Posted by Prime Eternal on September 08, 2003 at 10:24:41:
In Reply to: Re: JLA/Avengers #1
posted by SKleefeld on September 05, 2003 at 12:36:34:

The only serious issue is that the Scarlet Witch is wearing the wrong costume-- she stopped wearing the gypsy suit after Avengers #37. Beyond that, it seems to fit.

MH

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Re: JLA/Avengers #1
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 08, 2003 at 20:24:28:
In Reply to: Re: JLA/Avengers #1
posted by Prime Eternal on September 08, 2003 at 10:24:41:

We'll have to assume she re-donned the gypsy costume for this adventure.  (There's always that old costume-in-the-wash excuse.)

Also, JLA/A must occur after the destruction of Genosha in X 115.  Is Magneto's one-panel appearance real or symbolic?

--Paul

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Re: JLA/Avengers #1
Posted by Jeph! on September 09, 2003 at 00:26:18:
In Reply to: Re: JLA/Avengers #1
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 08, 2003 at 20:24:28:

> Also, JLA/A must occur after the destruction of Genosha in X 115.  Is Magneto's one-panel appearance real or symbolic?

It's a picture of him, on a tattered propaganda poster.  It's not an "appearance" at all.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: JLA/Avengers #1
Posted by Russ Chappell on September 05, 2003 at 21:00:26:
In Reply to: JLA/Avengers #1
posted by Paul O'Brien on September 05, 2003 at 10:05:10:

I, for one, would be excited if it were canon. I think we'll have a more-or-less definitive answer by the time the series ends.

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Marvel Super-Heroes (vol.3) #13 - spring `93
Posted by RLG on September 05, 2003 at 19:07:47:

  I could not find reference to this issue in the MCP, nor could I find it listed on the "Gap" page.  It contains two Iron Man stories.  The first (told in two chapters) occurs "prior to the events in Iron Man #167" and contains a cat & mouse game between Tony and J.Hammer.  The second story occurs "prior to the events in Iron Man #215" and features the return of Midas (now transformed into a solid gold being.)

  Does this issue need to be added?  Let me know as I already have it out.

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Re: Marvel Super-Heroes (vol.3) #13 - spring `93
Posted by Administrator on September 05, 2003 at 20:52:54:
In Reply to: Marvel Super-Heroes (vol.3) #13 - spring `93
posted by RLG on September 05, 2003 at 19:07:47:

Thanks for the offer, RLG, but read the FAQ carefully.

			*	*	*

Re: Marvel Super-Heroes (vol.3) #13 - spring `93
Posted by RLG on September 05, 2003 at 21:48:53:
In Reply to: Re: Marvel Super-Heroes (vol.3) #13 - spring `93
posted by Administrator on September 05, 2003 at 20:52:54:

D'Oh!!  Sorry about that.

- RLG

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SKYHAWK...SMART ALEC...SMASHER III
Posted by Arthur Stein on September 06, 2003 at 13:40:57:

new entries marked **

SKYHAWK/WINSTON "BILLY BOY" MANCHESTER
**T 395
**T 396
**T 397
**T 398
**T 399
**T 400
T@ 16/3-FB

SMART ALEC/ALEC THORNE
AF SPECIAL
**AF 7
**AF 11
**AF 12
**AF 13 (physical body)
**AF 44 (physical body)
**AF 45 (physical body)

SMASHER III
**GR2 19
DD 138
**GR2 20

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering!

#116

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Doctor Doom
Posted by RLG on September 06, 2003 at 23:05:23:

    Looking over Dr.Doom's chrono, I notices a couple of (possible) corrections:

     First, the flashback (pages 18-19) in Fantastic Four #410, in which Kristoff's mother is killed by a Doom-Bot is just a retelling of the events from FF #247.  The only "new" Dr.Doom scene occurs on page 19, panel 2, where Doom is seen holding Kristoff, who is now an orphan.  This would have to occur between Doom's appearance between FF #247-257, but I do not know exactly where.

     Second, Doom's appearances around the Astonishing Tales period seem to be out of whack.  I propose the following:

DR.DOOM

YEAR 4 - Peter Parker's freshman/sophomore college year

ST 162 (bts) - January
ST 163 (bts) - January
ST 164 (bts) - January
ST 165 (bts) - January
ST 166 (bts) - January
ST 167 - January
**DD 37 (fb)
**DD 36 - March or May
**DD 37 - March or May
**DD 38 - March or May
**FF 73 - May
M/SH 20
**FF 410(fb) - OMIT (see above)
FF 84 - late September
FF 85 - late September
FF 86 - late September
FF 87 - late September
SUBM 20 - late September or October
CA 132(fb)
CA 131 (bts) - October
AT 1/2 - late October to mid November
         (begins during the Apollo mission seen in FF #98. Doom's spheroid object found by the astronauts on the moon is examined for "weeks" before Doom makes it known to the President that he placed it there.  Shortly afterwards, (mid November) Rudolpho attempts to take over Latveria.
AT 2/2 - mid November
AT 3/2 - mid November - Doom's castle destroyed
AT 4/2 - mid November to late December
          (during the gap, Doom travels to the Riveria, the castle is rebuilt, and the Red Skull & company take over Latveria.)
AT 5/2 - late December

YEAR 5 - Peter Parker's sophomore/junior college year

AT 6/2 - January
AT 7/2 - January
** FF 116 - mid January
** HULK 143 - February
** HULK 144 - February
** THOR 182 - March
** THOR 183 - March
** SUBM 47 - March?
** SUBM 48 - March?
** SUBM 49 - March?
** AT 8/3 - June 20th or 21st
          (Doom's attempt to free his mother's soul from damnation occurs every "midsummer's eve."  I'm assuming that this is a literal take on the word "midsummer" as the summer solstice (seems to fit the occult nature of the ritual) and NOT sometime in the middle of the summer season.)

NOTE: If the "midsummer" reference is taken seriously, then it would also apply in Fantastic Four Annual #20.

(the calendar references are taken from the George O. Official Marvel Guides and Paul B's Avengers Calendar.)    

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Ultimate Universe chrono -- update on progress
Posted by Jimmy Flowers on September 07, 2003 at 18:15:42:

Hi,

Just a quick note to let you all know that I am making progress on the update. Plus I needed to vent.

The late issues of The Ultimates and Ultimate Adventures have chronologizing the recent stuff a major biotch. Oh, well. 

Long live the Ultimate Universe!

JF

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Re: Ultimate Universe chrono -- update on progress
Posted by Matthew Kane on September 26, 2003 at 00:23:31:
In Reply to: Ultimate Universe chrono -- update on progress
posted by Jimmy Flowers on September 07, 2003 at 18:15:42:

I'm a big fan of choronology and I have been using your older guide to keep myself on track.

Just want to say keep up the good work

>Long live the Ultimate Universe!

Hear Hear!

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Marvel Chronology Graph
Posted by Jimmy Petersson on September 08, 2003 at 05:21:09:

I don't know how many of you that are familiar with the graph-applet that has been available at my site a couple of years now. Anyway, I've been working on developing it and now I think it's ready for you!

The new graph-program makes it possible for you to create graphs from the lists in the MCP or from your own chronological lists. It also finds chronological contradictions and presents them in a graphical way.

Read more here:
http://medlem.spray.se/marvels/chronology.htm

If you have any questions, suggestions or comments I would appreciate if you send me an e-mail or reply to this post, whatever suits best. I want feedback!

/Jimmy

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Chronology review: Elektra #23-27
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 08, 2003 at 07:01:23:

Robert Rodi's now finished his second story arc, so here's the details for those five issues.  Rodi's especially fond of doing two consecutive issues showing the same events from different perspectives, which is going to make some of these issues tough to represent on the MCP.  Issues #25-26, in particular, are very intricately interlinked.

=============

THE MARK / THE JOB
ELEKTRA #23 (July 2003) by Robert Rodi, Sean Chen and Tom Palmer
ELEKTRA #24 (August 2003) by Rodi, Chen and Palmer

GENERAL COMMENTS:
We're now into the Rodi run, which is relentlessly nonlinear.  Elektra is straight back to her assassin persona here, so presumably enough time has passed to allow her to get over the events of the previous storyline.  This would be a natural gap for her to make guest appearances in other titles.

SYNOPSIS
ELEKTRA #24, pp1-3.  A strip club on Sunset Boulevard.  Jason Spierling of the Paladin Corporation talks with his associate Al.  Al is helping Jason to embezzle money from Paladin.  Al says that this is not straightforward because Paladin were planning to use the money to "finance a revolution in some banana republic" because they will get a tax break from the new government.  (This becomes important in a few issues time.)  Elektra appears, disguised as a stripper, and kills both of them.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Jason Spierling, Al

["One month ago" - ie, one month before the events of issue #23, which are "the present" for the purposes of this issue.  According to the CNN coverage later in the issue, it is late night.  Incidentally, Elektra is evidently back to using sharpened sai in this story.]

ELEKTRA #24, p4.  An airport.  Elektra gets on a plane to New York.

Characters appearing: Elektra

[The CNN news is playing in the background and refers to Jason Spierling's murder as "late last night."]

ELEKTRA #24, p5-6.  Manhattan, night.  Stuart Prebble phones his contact Leon to complain that they are not doing enough to protect him from Elektra - "I've already lost more than a dozen of your referrals."  Elektra turns up and kills Prebble's guards; Prebble slips away again.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Stuart Prebble.

[In issue #23, Prebble says that "In six days I went through fourteen hired hoods", and then goes on to describe this scene - thus, Elektra has been pursuing him for at least six days by this point.  Prebble suggests that only after this point did he flee Manhattan, so it may be six or seven days after the previous scene - possibly longer, depending on how long Elektra spent preparing.  In issue #23, Prebble also says that Elektra has driven him to his current condition "in the space of two and a half weeks", which would suggest that this must be a week and a half before the main story.]

ELEKTRA #24, pp7-11.  Prebble's mansion in the Hamptons.  A man called Carter Trask is now running the security. Guards surround the building, to the annoyance of local residents (not least because Trask cut down half the trees to make for a clearer view).  Elektra turns up and slaughters the guards again, and again Prebble slips away.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Stuart Prebble

[Evidently at least one day later.]

ELEKTRA #24, p12.  Provence, day.  Disguised as a tourist, Elektra cases the security at Prebble's latest house.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Stuart Prebble

[Prebble must have only just arrived, since he is still having his calls redirected to Provence.  Also, the guards comment in the next scene that they don't believe Elektra could have tracked him so quickly.]

ELEKTRA #24, pp13-18pn1.  Provence, night.  Again, Elektra storms the building and kills all the guards, and an increasingly panicked Prebble flees.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Stuart Prebble

[Probably the same day, although it isn't made clear.]

ELEKTRA #24, p18pn2.  Into a montage sequence now.  A snowbound landscape; Prebble runs away while Elektra stands over dead guards.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Stuart Prebble

[Judging from Prebble's narration in issue #23, this is presumably "my Schloss in Gstaad", and at least one day after the previous story.]

ELEKTRA #24, p18pn2.  A jungle; Prebble finds his guards killed.

Characters appearing: Stuart Prebble

[Presumably "my house on St Lucia", and again at least one day after the previous story.]

ELEKTRA #24, p18pn3.  A city beach, night - Prebble runs from the corpses of his guards.

Characters appearing: Stuart Prebble

[This would seem to be "my villa on the Cinque Terre", and again at least one day after the previous story.]

ELEKTRA #24, p18 pn4.  Prebble and a guard head through the same airport Elektra was in earlier; Prebble looks panicked.

Characters appearing: Stuart Prebble

[Presumably this is Prebble arriving in town for his final safehouse, since Elektra leaves from the same airport at the end of the issue.  On that basis, it is probably the same day as issue #23.]

ELEKTRA #23 and ELEKTRA #24 pp19-21: Having been hounded by Elektra through various countries, Stuart Prebble arrives at his last mansion, resigned to death.  He tells his latest head of security, Frank Bauer, about Elektra.  When Elektra turns up, she easily gets past Bauer's defences.  Prebble allows Elektra to kill him; Elektra allows Bauer to leave.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Stuart Prebble, Frank Bauer

[This all takes place in one evening.  There are leaves on the trees in the exterior shots; but since the location of the house is not revealed, that doesn't tell us a great deal.  Issue #23 shows this scene from the perspective of Prebble, and issue #24 shows it from Elektra's perspective.]

ELEKTRA #24, p22: The same airport again.  Elektra opens an envelope with her latest set of instructions; she is going to London.

Characters appearing: Elektra

[There could be a lengthy gap after the previous scene.  Elektra's mission is implicitly the one seen in issue #25, where she arrives in London, but this is not explicitly stated.]

===============

POWER PLAY
ELEKTRA #25 (September 2003) by Rob Rodi, Sean Chen and Sandu Florea
ELEKTRA #26 (October 2003) by Rodi, Chen and Florea
ELEKTRA #27 (November 20030 by Rodi, Chen and Florea

GENERAL COMMENTS:
Once again, this story is drastically nonlinear.  In total, it covers five weeks.  The scenes are rearranged below into chronological order.  There is extraordinarily detailed interweaving of scenes between issues #25-26, which cover essentially the same events from the perspectives of two different characters; issue #27 is more conventional.  In the synopsis, the events are broken down by day for the purposes of calendar placement.  However, Elektra's panel-to-panel continuity is as follows:-

Issue #26 (flashback)
Issue #25 pp1-3 BTS ~ issue #26 pp4-5
Issue #26 pp6-7
Issue #25 p7
Issue #26 p8pn1-5
Issue #25 p8
Issue #25 p9 ~ issue #26 p8pn6
Issue #25 p10
Issue #26 p9pn3-4
Issue #25 p11 ~ issue #26 p9pn5
Issue #26 pp1-18
Issue #25 p18
Issue #25 p19pn1 ~ issue #26 p19pn1
Issue #26 p19pn2
Issue #25 p19pn3-4 ~ issue #26 p19pn2-3
Issue #25 p20pn1
Issue #25 p20pn2 ~ issue #26 p19pn4
Issue #25 p20pn3
Issue #25 p20pn4 ~ issue #26 p19pn5-6
Issue #25 p20pn5
Issue #25 p21 ~ issue #26 p20pn1-2
Issue #26 p20pn3-p22
Issue #27

See what I mean about intricacy?

SYNOPSIS

ELEKTRA #26, pp1-3 (flashback).  London, daylight.  In an office, Elektra meets the man who has hired her (finally named as "Beben" in issue #27).  He is a member of the minority Peti tribe who are undergoing persecution by Bridget Hapanmyas, the dictator of Djanda.  He was formerly a senator; in the early stages of her reign of terror, he was exiled from the country after a show trial.  He wants Elektra to kill Bridget.  Elektra tells him that she charges more for political assassinations.  He insists that the assassination is personal.  He tells Elektra that Bridget is currently in London, shopping.

Characters: Elektra, Beben

["Three weeks ago."  There isn't actually a scene in issue #26 expressly labelled as "present day", but it presumably means three weeks before Ibrim and Elektra arrive in Djanda.]

ELEKTRA #25, p1 to p10pn3 and ELEKTRA #26, pp4-10: London.  Apparently evening, since the streetlights are on.  Heavy rain.  At Chapmans (an upscale department store), Bridget Hapanmyas, the dictator of Djanda, is shopping.  Meanwhile, her son Ibrim Hapanmyas is unsuccessfully chatting up a store clerk, and her security chief Jerik is standing by.  Elektra observes from the air vent in the ceiling.  As Bridget and her entourage leave, Elektra approaches Ibrim in civilian clothes and makes a pass at him.  Bridget returns to her hotel room and watches news reports of her own visit to London.  She summons Jerik and Ibrim to watch with her.  There have been protests because of her abysmal human rights record.  Bridget is surprised to learn from the news that she has turned down a request from CNN for an interview; Jerik explains that he handled the call for her, and she berates him for exceeding his authority.  Ibrim belatedly responds to Bridget's summons, and Bridget berates him for chasing British women.  Elektra continues to hang around outside.  As Bridget sleeps at night, Elektra appears outside her hotel room.  But before she can go in, Jerik comes into the room and wakes Bridget.  Jerik explains that a group of senators from the minority Peti tribe has staged a coup in her absence.  They must immediately return to Djanda.  Bridget protests that she will not leave her new purchases behind, and Jerik irritably agrees to leave Ibrim behind to deal with that.  Jerik and Bridget rush off.  Again in civilian clothes, Elektra corners Ibrim in the hotel lobby and chats him up.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Bridget Hapanmyas, Ibrim Hapanmyas, Jerik

[No specific day is given.  The opening panel, an establishing shot of the Houses of Parliament, shows a businessman in suit and bowler hat apparently walking home from work; presumably it's a weekday.  The CNN reports contain some rather useless additional chronological information: Bridget came to power "last year" following the death of her husband Emet, who was the previous president.  Also on this day, a British TV celebrity, Freddy Goring, was killed in a plane crash; Braekirk Castle caught fire; and Welsh sanitation workers are on strike.  Not too much time can have passed since the previous issue, as Bridget's visit to London is still considered newsworthy.  It might be the same day.]

ELEKTRA #25, p10pn4 to p14.  Bridget and Jerik arrive back in Djanda.  The army has already suppressed the coup and isolated the rebel senators within their offices.  Bridget induces them to surrender by offering an amnesty, and then immediately reneges on the deal.  She orders that the senators will be sentenced to death, and their wives and daughters sent to the state-run brothels.

Characters appearing: Bridget, Jerik

[It's still dark when they arrive, so presumably it's early morning on the same night that the left London.  For some reason there seem to be leaves on the trees in some panels and not in others.]

ELEKTRA #25, pp15-21 and ELEKTRA #26, pp11-22.  Bridget personally oversees the execution of the rebel leaders by firing squad.  The wives are dragged off to the brothels.  Ibrim finally returns to the palace with Elektra, whom he keeps secret from Bridget.  He claims that he was delayed in chartering another flight; Bridget doesn't believe him.  Ibrim gives Elektra a tour of the palace.  In so doing, he reveals that a recent attempted coup was funded by a corporation who expected commercial benefits.  Elektra realises that this is the conversation she overheard in the strip club in issue #24, and that her employer is lying about the assassination being personal.  At night, Elektra kills Ibrim and severs his head, using it to pass the retina scan and enter Bridget's bedroom.  However, Jerik has swapped places with Bridget.  They fight, and Jerik is killed.  Guards arrive and open fire on Elektra.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Bridget, Jerik, Ibrim

[Three weeks after Elektra was hired; therefore a little less than three weeks after Elektra failed to assassinate Bridget in London.  Ibrim's excuse for the delay in returning - that he couldn't charter a plane any more quickly - is feeble, but then nobody in the story accepts it either.  Three weeks would allow sufficient time for Bridget to stage the obligatory show trial before executing the rebels.]

ELEKTRA #27, pp1-19: Elektra falls out of the window as she dodges the gunfire.  She evades the guards and makes her way to the roof of the palace, where she steals Bridget's escape helicopter.  At first, Elektra intends to leave altogether - because she was lied to by her client, she feels under no obligation to finish the job.  But after reflecting on the way Bridget runs her country, Elektra has an attack of conscience (well, of sorts) and returns to the castle.  Elektra makes her way back to Bridget's bedroom and kills her.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Bridget

[A direct continuation from the end of issue #26 (the first panel of this issue repeats the final panel of issue #26).  All of this takes place in the same night.]

ELEKTRA #27, pp20-22.  London, "two weeks later."  Night.  Elektra confronts Beben in his office.  He admits that he lied to her about the assassination being personal.  Elektra explains that she made contact with the resistance underground, the DJA, who helped her to escape.  In exchange, she has agreed to kill Beben, whom they consider to be the chief threat to their proposed coalition government.  Elektra kills him and leaves.

Characters appearing: Elektra, Beben

[It's a full moon.  We also get a repeat of the establishing shot from issue #25, complete with businessman going home, so it's probably a weekday.]

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Re: Chronology review: Elektra #23-27
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 08, 2003 at 07:03:40:
In Reply to: Chronology review: Elektra #23-27
posted by Paul O'Brien on September 08, 2003 at 07:01:23:

Just to correct the obvious typo...

> Issue #26 (flashback)
> Issue #25 pp1-3 BTS ~ issue #26 pp4-5
> Issue #26 pp6-7
> Issue #25 p7
> Issue #26 p8pn1-5
> Issue #25 p8
> Issue #25 p9 ~ issue #26 p8pn6
> Issue #25 p10
> Issue #26 p9pn3-4
> Issue #25 p11 ~ issue #26 p9pn5
> Issue #26 pp10-18 ***
> Issue #25 p18
> Issue #25 p19pn1 ~ issue #26 p19pn1
> Issue #26 p19pn2
> Issue #25 p19pn3-4 ~ issue #26 p19pn2-3
> Issue #25 p20pn1
> Issue #25 p20pn2 ~ issue #26 p19pn4
> Issue #25 p20pn3
> Issue #25 p20pn4 ~ issue #26 p19pn5-6
> Issue #25 p20pn5
> Issue #25 p21 ~ issue #26 p20pn1-2
> Issue #26 p20pn3-p22
> Issue #27

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Re: Chronology review: Elektra #23-27
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 08, 2003 at 20:31:52:
In Reply to: Chronology review: Elektra #23-27
posted by Paul O'Brien on September 08, 2003 at 07:01:23:

Whoa, I can tell this wasn't easy.  Thanks, Paul, for your analysis.  Non-linear storytelling doesn't usually thrill me as a reader, but as a chronologist it just drives me nuts.

--Paul

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Sequence of pages and panels
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 19, 2003 at 21:33:20:
In Reply to: Chronology review: Elektra #23-27
posted by Paul O'Brien on September 08, 2003 at 07:01:23:

Paul,

I'm trying to make sense of your chronological listing of Elektra's appearances vis-a-vis sequential calendar entries for all scenes and am totally confused.  Here's my stab at calendar entries.  Please correct errors I'm sure I have here.  Thanks.

Sunday, February 16
ELEKTRA #24  FB (18p5)
One day.  Prebble arrives at the airport in the town of his final safehouse.
ELEKTRA #23 ~ ELEKTRA #24 (19-21)
The same day as ELEKTRA 24-FB (18p5).  It is one month after ELEKTRA 24-FB (1-3).  Resigned to death, Prebble allows Elektra to kill him at his last safehouse.

Monday, February 17
ELEKTRA #24 (22)
Perhaps the day after ELEKTRA 24 (19-21).  Elektra opens an envelope with her latest set of instructions, this time to go to London.
ELEKTRA #26  FB (1-3)
Probably the same day as ELEKTRA 24 (22).  It is three weeks before ELEKTRA 26 (11-22).  Once arrived in London, Elektra meets Beben, a man who wants her to kill Bridget Hapanmyas, the dictator of Djanda, who is visiting London.
ELEKTRA #25 (1-3) ~ ELEKTRA #26-FB (4-5)
ELEKTRA #26-FB (6-7)
ELEKTRA #25 (7)
ELEKTRA #26-FB (8p1-8p5)
ELEKTRA #25 (8)
ELEKTRA #25 (9) ~ ELEKTRA #26  FB (8p6)
ELEKTRA #25 (10p1-10p3)
ELEKTRA #26  FB (9p3-9p4)
ELEKTRA #25 (11) ~ ELEKTRA #26  FB (9p5)
ELEKTRA #26  FB (10)

Tuesday, February 18
ELEKTRA #25 (10p4-14)
ELEKTRA #25 (15-18)
ELEKTRA #26  FB (11-18)
ELEKTRA #26  FB (19p1) ~ ELEKTRA #26  FB (19p1)
ELEKTRA #26  FB (19p2)
ELEKTRA #25 (19p3-19p4) ~ ELEKTRA #26  FB (19p2-19p3)
ELEKTRA #25 (20p1)
ELEKTRA #25 (20p2) ~ ELEKTRA #26  FB (19p4)
ELEKTRA #25 (20p3)
ELEKTRA #25 (20p4) ~ ELEKTRA #26  FB (19p5-19p6)
ELEKTRA #25 (20p5)
ELEKTRA #25 (21) ~ ELEKTRA #26  FB (20p1-20p2)
ELEKTRA #26 (20p3-22)
ELEKTRA #27 (1-19)

--Paul

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Uncanny X-Men #368
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 08, 2003 at 15:20:06:

Minor correction for the MCP listings:

Sister Maria de la Joya (the nun who found Magneto in UX 345) ought to have a listing for this issue.  She's seen in a one-page subplot at the end.

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Marvel UK; in-continuity or not; some observations
Posted by John McDonagh on September 09, 2003 at 10:11:36:

Marvel UK-Did It Take Place on Earth-616 

The continuity status of Marvel UK for Earth-616 has raised some concern. 

1. Marvel UK certainly started out in Earth-616. In fact, the very term "Earth-616" came from Marvel UK in the first place! The name derives from the Captain Britain stories. Captain Britain, Psylocke, Meggan, and all the stories from the 1970s and 1980s have been shown to be part of Earth-616. Even Night Raven showed up in that Nick Fury/Black Widow:Death Duty issue.

2. Licensed characters from the 1970's and 1980's are an exception. The Doctor(from Doctor Who) has interacted with Marvel-owned characters, but does not seem a native of the Marvel Megaverse or the Earth-616 universe. The Transformers and Action Force (G.I. Joe) did not take place on Earth-616, though their world had counterparts of Spider-Man, the Savage Land, S.H.I.E.L.D., Shang-Chi, Batroc, Elektra, and Iron Fist (those last three were mentioned in Action Force#17). (Death's Head [Freelance Peackeeping Agent) was not native to the Transformers' Earth, though he went there and had many adventures.)

3. What about the 1990s era characters: Mys-Tech, Death's Head/Minion, Motormouth and Killpower, and all of the rest?

How many non-UK issues have they appeared in or been mentioned in ?

A) Incredible Hulk II#408+409. Motormouth and Killpower meet the Hulk. These two are dimension hopping adventurers, so they could have popped over to a parallel Earth, but there's nothing to give any evidence that this is not their native Earth.

B) Avengers Forever#11, 12. Several MUK characters show up at the Citadel at the End of Time, as past/future/alternate versions of the Avengers. So, you could take this as meaning that they are from Earth-616, and that in some futures, some of them become Avengers. Or, you could take it as meaning that they are from an alternate Earth, and that's why they were brought there.There were both alternate timeline Avengers and past Earth-616 Avengers there, so either way is possible, but neither way is discussed.

C) Excalibur I#66+67. Albion, Arthur, Dark Angel, Grace, Killpower, and a bunch of the others show up in a flashforward to the Days of Future Past storyline. Again, as a future storlyine,alternate, potential, whatever, it is inconclusive.

D) Union Jack had his own series in 1998, and the first issue has one of those gatefold "Guide to the Marvel Universe" recap info covers Marvel was doing at the time. There is a large picture of the the Knights of Pendragon in it with the label "Imbued with the mystic power of the Pendragon, which gave him enhanced strength and stamina, Union Jack fought beside the Knights of Pendragon. Now, he once again battle  alone, for Queen and country."--info provided by Joseph Charneskie.

E) Strong evidence for the Earth-616 status of Marvel UK can be found in Excalibur. In Excalibur #55 Alysande Stuart tells her brother that she is being tried for treason, alleged to have leaked secrets to S.H.I.E.L.D. This happened while she was aboard the Helicarrier, which was in UK airspace - and a footnote pertaining to the reason why it was in the UK tells the reader to check out Motormouth#1.

F) Excalibur I#64 has Captain Britain talking to an intelligence officer. At one point, the intelligence officer refers to Killpower, Dark Angel, Motormouth, and the Knights of Pendragon. We see them on videoscreens. So this would further establish that they are on Earth-616. 

4. Cyberspace 3000 would appear to take place in the same timeline as Earth-Guardians of the Galaxy, though they also encounter beings from a different, parallel timeline, the Earth-Moebius timeline-the alternate Earth seen in the Epic mini-series Silver Surfer: Parable. 

			*	*	*

JOE SMITH...SNAKE...SNAPDRAGON
Posted by Arthur Stein on September 10, 2003 at 14:57:25:

new entries marked **

SMITH, JOE
WTS 2
**CA 246-FB
**CA 246
SM:MM 1

SNAKE
**AF 64 (17p4)
**AF 65 (7p8)
AF 66

SNAPDRAGON/SHEOKE SANADA
**CA 403/2-FB The unnamed female to Diamondbacks right (24) looks amazingly like Snapdragon as seen in CA 388 (19p2). And in CA 388 Snapdragon tells us that she and Diamondback were at the Taskmasters academy together (19p3).
CA 389

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering!

#117

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X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
Posted by Jeph! on September 11, 2003 at 02:32:26:

Warning: this post contains spoilers for New X-Men #146.  If you don't want the shock ending to be ruined, please don't read any further.

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Okay  so, this issue throws a spanner into the UXM-NXM chronology that we'd developed a while back.  Previously, we'd assumed that Cyclops would be returning to the X-Men after "Assault on Weapon Plus" in X #142-145, and would have a gap between #145 and #146 in which we could place his appearances in UX #423-up.

However, this is not the case  X #145 follows directly into X #146, and by the end of #146  where Cyclops is not yet back with the team  Xorn is revealed as the traitor inside the X-Men.  And Prof. X is crippled again.

Now, issues of UX as recent as #430 have guest-starred Xorn, in pre-traitor mode, and shown Xavier walking.  It's entirely possible that, by X #150, the whole thing will be revealed as a hoax, Xorn will be back on the team, and Xavier will be walking AGAIN  but, honestly, it's not likely at all.  So we have to assume that every issue of UX up through the end of "the Draco" in #434 takes place BEFORE Xorn's reveal in X #146.

UX #410 takes place after X #133, based on Archangel's skin color  there's a good starting point.  (And we're now talking about integrating UX #410-434, Chuck Austen's entire run to date, with X #133-146.)

As Cyclops appears in UX #423-426 and #429, these issues must be before X #146  which, since Cyclops is still away in #146, means that they must take place before his departure  which was in X #139.

X #139 continued from the final pages of X #138, where Jean telepathically walked in on Scot and Emma's psychic affair.  Jean was alerted to this affair while on a plane, returning to the mansion.  In NXM, she'd been away since before #134 began  so in terms of "New X-Men", Scott and Jean haven't been together at the mansion for any period of time since before #134.

However, Jean appears in UX #423-426 also, at the mansion with Scott.  Logically, the place to place all these issues would be between X #133, where UX #410 is, and X #134, where Jean leaves  giving us this:

X #133
UX #410-427
UX #429-(434)  UX #428 occurs entirely in the past, and #431-434 have yet to be published.
X #134-146

However, there's one problem with this  in UX #422, they reference "the recent riot"  and the Riot at Xavier's ended in X #138.

Can we find a hole in X #138 large enough to place UX #422-434?

Yes, I believe we can.  And to do it, we'll need to fall back on Paul's old standby: "Jean made two trips".

In X #134-137, Jean is said to be in Hong Kong.  However, in X #138, she's returning with Dust in tow  and Dust was, last we saw her, at X-Corp Mumbai, in India.  This seems to indicate that either Dust traveled to Hong Kong, or Jean traveled to India  and if we use the latter assumption, what's to stop us assuming that Jean made two separate trips?  One to Hong Kong over X #134-137 and the start of #138, and one to India at the end of #138?  That way, she could appear at the mansion in UX #423-426 BETWEEN TRIPS.

In X #138, several important time elements are laid out, including an in-book error that I'd previously overlooked.  Pp.1-6 take place on a "Wednesday", the same day as the rest of the Riot.  Pp.7-9 occur on a "Tuesday", which I'd pointed out to Paul must indicate a six-day gap  but on p.7, Emma says that Sophie, who died in the Riot, died "yesterday".  Is it six days or one since the riot?  The book contradicts itself.

On p.10-14, which all occur the same day (a "Thursday"), Prof. X says that the school will close for the summer in "six days", and that he'll be stepping down as Headmaster after that point.  The prizegiving ceremony occurs on a "Saturday", which, since the school is still open, must be two days later.  Jean returns home that night, and that snowballs into Cyclops' departure  so the gap where we want to place UX #423-434 needs to be before the Prizegiving, at least  and since UX #423-434 can't take place in less than two days, likely they need to occur before the Thursday where Prof. X announces he will step down.

So the ideal place for the gap seems to be between pp.9-10  giving us:

X #133
UX #410-420-ish
X #134-137  Riot at Xavier's.  Jean is away in Hong Kong.
X #138 pp.1-9  the Riot wraps up.  Jean presumably returns home afterwards.
UX #421-ish -427  the Riot is referenced in #422.  Jean is at the mansion in #423-426.
UX #429-(434)  the Draco.  Cyclops appears in #429.  Xorn appears in #430.  Presumably Jean leaves for India shortly after (or during) this arc.
X #138 pp.10-23  Jean returns with Dust from India, and catches Scott and Emma.
X #139-146  Scott runs off.  Xorn is revealed as the traitor.

You'll notice my "420-ish" and "421-ish" notations above.  This is something we'd discussed before, but I wanted to clarify again.

In UX #416, Glob Herman is still a student at the school.  Glob is involved in the Riot and expelled in X #134-138.  So UX #416 occurs before X #134.

UX #416-420 all occur on the same day, and #420 leads directly into #421.  So all of this must be before the Riot  however, #421 leads directly into #422, and #422 occurs AFTER the Riot  so we need to find a gap in #421 to place X #134-138.

We found this gap in UX #421 p.21, between panels 1-2.  It still serves just as well, and I propose we continue to use it.  This gives us a finished continuity of:

X #133
UX #410-420  Glob Herman appears in #416 before the Riot in X #134.
UX #421 pp.1-21p1  Havok awakens from his coma in #420 and is welcomed home here.
X #134-137  Riot at Xavier's.  Jean is away in Hong Kong.
X #138 pp.1-9  the Riot wraps up.
UX #421 pp.21p2-24  Jean doesn't appear here, so she could still be in Hong Kong  she presumably returns home afterwards.
UX #422-427  The Riot is referenced in #422.  Jean and Scott appear in #423-426 at the mansion, with no overt signs of marital stress.
UX #429-(434)  the Draco.  Cyclops appears in #429.  Xorn appears in #430.  Presumably Jean leaves for India shortly after (or during) this arc.
X #138 pp.10-23  Jean returns with Dust from India, and catches Scott and Emma.
X #139-146  Scott runs off.  Xorn is revealed as the traitor.

How does this look to everyone?  It involves creating two large gaps in books that weren't meant to have them, but it holds true to all the facts.  (I don't recall anything in UX #422-430 about summer vacation or Prof. X stepping down, so as far as I know, they could all occur before his announcements to that effect.  Am I wrong?)

The other alternative, for those of you who don't like to create large gaps in books, is to go with my original notation:

X #133
UX #410-427
UX #429-(434)
X #134-146

This eliminates the gaps created in X #138 and UX #421, and it also eliminates the need for us to suggest that Jean has gone on two trips  but the reference in UX #422 about the "recent riot" needs to be interpreted to have some other meaning, as UX #422 now falls BEFORE the Riot in X #136-138.  (Perhaps it can refer to the Shi'Ar invasion in X #126 that, according to a paper in UX #410, nearly "leveled the school"?  By X #133 it's not "recent", but it's the closest thing I can think of.)

Two different proposals, two different sets of problems: create two gaps and ignore an inference (Jean returning home), or ignore a reference to the Riot?

Which do our local X-heads vote for?

At this point, I'm going with option #1, the more complicated interweaving of the two.  However, there's still things like "The New Mutants" v2 to consider  where Prof. X is shown walking  placing it before X #146  and referencing the school being closed for summer vacation  placing it after X #140, where the school actually closes.  The trouble is, according to X #140-146, there AREN'T ANY GAPS in there.  No appreciable ones, anyway, and no way to create one that I'm seeing.  (Unless Cyclops and Wolverine are gone for many days when they're investigating the Weapon Plus program in X #142-145, and NM2 #1-4 occur at the school when they're gone  do Cyclops or Wolverine appear in NM2 #1-4?)

I guess we'll have to wait for the two story arcs to end  in NM2 #6 and X #150  and see how we can piece things together there  but I really can't see NM2 affecting either of the options I've presented above for interweaving X and UX.

Thoughts, anyone?

-Jeph!

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Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
Posted by Dimadick on September 11, 2003 at 04:54:21:
In Reply to: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
posted by Jeph! on September 11, 2003 at 02:32:26:

> UX #410 takes place after X #133, based on Archangel's skin color  there's a good starting point.  (And we're now talking about integrating UX #410-434, Chuck Austen's entire run to date, with X #133-146.)

> X #139 continued from the final pages of X #138, where Jean telepathically walked in on Scot and Emma's psychic affair.  Jean was alerted to this affair while on a plane, returning to the mansion.  In NXM, she'd been away since before #134 began  so in terms of "New X-Men", Scott and Jean haven't been together at the mansion for any period of time since before #134.

> However, Jean appears in UX #423-426 also, at the mansion with Scott.  Logically, the place to place all these issues would be between X #133, where UX #410 is, and X #134, where Jean leaves  giving us this:

Hmmm... you may need to revisit New X-Men #128-#133 for your chronology of Jean. Between those issues she and Xavier are absent in what seems to be a world tour. Issues #128-#131 place them in Paris. The same issue which is our last view of a blue-skinned Archangel in New X-Men. Issue #132 has them visiting Genosha where they discover Polaris. In issue #133 Jean is seen flying to Mumbai with Professor Xavier when they prevent the hijacking of their plane. Uppon arrival in Mumbai, India. Jean saves her companion from an assasination attempt by his consort Lilandra Neramani. Charles leaves to meet the Shi'ar and Jean inspects the X-Corporation Mumbai. There she meets and apparently takes Dust under her protection. She returns to the mansion with her new charge in New X-Men #138. So she seems to be absent from the Mansion with Dust between issues #133 and #138. And as you have said #138 continues directly to #139. There doesn't seem to be a break in her chronology between issues #128- #139. 

However the only companion she gains in this trip is Dust. There doesn't seem to be any return of Jean to the mansion at least between #133 and #138. She would have had to leave Dust behind in the mansion if there was. Since we do need a gap to correct this chronological mess, could this be placed between issues #132 and #133? Placing most of Austen's run between those two issues would be a stretch but would it be possible?Could most of Chuck Austen's run be instean placed inIs it possible that Jean's Uncanny X-Men appearances happen before New X-Men #133?

> However, there's one problem with this  in UX #422, they reference "the recent riot"  and the Riot at Xavier's ended in X #138.

Uncanny X-Men #422 continues directly from the last page of issue #421 when the Alpha Flight arrives at the Mansion. The stated reason for their interest is the recent Riot at Xavier's. According to the narration of issue #421 Alpha Flight arrives two nights after Havok, Polaris and Nightcrawlker left the mansion. And Jean was among those X-Men seing the trio depart. However "two nights later" she is not among those who face the Alpha Flight. Possibly still absent in Asia as she was in the aftermath of the riot? Or indication that Jean currently competes with Wolverine as the active X-Man most often absent from the Mansion?

> Can we find a hole in X #138 large enough to place UX #422-434?

> Yes, I believe we can.  And to do it, we'll need to fall back on Paul's old standby: "Jean made two trips".

> In X #134-137, Jean is said to be in Hong Kong.  However, in X #138, she's returning with Dust in tow  and Dust was, last we saw her, at X-Corp Mumbai, in India.  This seems to indicate that either Dust traveled to Hong Kong, or Jean traveled to India  and if we use the latter assumption, what's to stop us assuming that Jean made two separate trips?  One to Hong Kong over X #134-137 and the start of #138, and one to India at the end of #138?  That way, she could appear at the mansion in UX #423-426 BETWEEN TRIPS.

Any explanation why Dust would still be tagging along with Jean in both trips? Any indication that she is Jean's new pet project? Following youp proposal, why would Jean return to India to collect Dust instead of taking the girl with her the first time around? By the way does Draco so far have any effects on Nightcrawler's status as an X-Man. In New X-Men #140 he seems to be the only member of the Uncanny team to be present in the mansion.

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
Posted by Jeph! on September 11, 2003 at 11:24:32:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
posted by Dimadick on September 11, 2003 at 04:54:21:

> Hmmm... you may need to revisit New X-Men #128-#133 for your chronology of Jean. Between those issues she and Xavier are absent in what seems to be a world tour. Issues #128-#131 place them in Paris. Issue #132 has them visiting Genosha.

Yes.

> In issue #133 Jean is seen flying to Mumbai with Professor Xavier. There she meets and apparently takes Dust under her protection. She returns to the mansion with her new charge in New X-Men #138. So she seems to be absent from the Mansion with Dust between issues #133 and #138.And as you have said #138 continues directly to #139. 

Key words here: "apparently" and "seems to be".

> There doesn't seem to be a break in her chronology between issues #128- #139.

And yet, we know there must be, as she appears in UX off and on from #421-426.

> There doesn't seem to be any return of Jean to the mansion at least between #133 and #138. She would have had to leave Dust behind in the mansion if there was.

See, your logical error here is that you assume Jean must have taken Dust with her when she left Mumbai.  We dont know this at all.  It's barely even implied, except that Jean brings Dust home in X #138.  However, that doesn't necessarily mean that she's been travelling with Dust since X #133.

> could this be placed between issues #132 and #133? Is it possible that Jean's Uncanny X-Men appearances happen before New X-Men #133?

In X #132, Xavier and Jean say that theyre "on their way to India".  That's why I placed their UX appearances after X #133, where they're in India.  You suggest that placing Jean's UX appearances between X #133-134 breaks up Jean's tour of the world  well, placing the same issues between X #132-133 breaks up XAVIER'S tour of the world  and he was only gone from X #128-133, whereas Jean was gone from #128-139.  Placing the UX issues in question after #133 does two things:  leaves the "on their way to India" reference in #132 intact, and leaves Xavier's world tour unbroken.

It seems obvious that Grant Morrison, when writing these issues, intended Jean to be gone from the mansion entirely for this arc  on one long trip, from Paris to India to Hong Kong and back, placing stress on her marriage to Scott.  Unfortunately, due to her constant appearances in UX, things just can't work that way.  We have to pretend that Jean took several shorter trips.

It also seems likely that Grant intended for Jean to meet Dust in X #133, bring her WITH her to Hong Kong behind the scenes in #134, and travel home from Hong Kong in #138.  However, none of this is spelled out on panel  and therefore, we don't need to adhere to it if it messes with chronology.

My suggestion, that Jean MET Dust in X #133 but left her in India with X-Corp Mumbai, isn't totally out of the question.  You say that Jean "apparently" takes Dust under her wing, but we see no evidence of that  all Jean does is calm her down.  X-Corp Mumbai is, I'm sure, a very capable mutant rescue organization, and Dust would have been very secure there.  After all, India is a lot closer to home than Hong Kong, and we've already seen that Dust frightens easily.  Why wouldn't Jean have left Dust with X-Corp, and returned home to the States with Prof. X?

I'vce demonstrated that there NEEDS to be a large break within X #138, wherein Jean returns to the mansion.  There needs to be a gap there, unless we ignore the "riot" reference in UX #422, which I'm not inclined to do.  So, either way, I'm going to suggest that Jean returns home from Hong Kong between pp.9-10 of X #138, and heads out again  for SOMEWHERE  sometime after UX #426, the last time we see her in that book.  It's this NEW trip she's on in X #138 pp.10-21.

My theory, that Jean went to India and picked up Dust, was simply a possible way to explain WHY she made a third trip.  We KNOW she had to have made a third trip  but we don't know where she went or why  and the only clue we have is that she's coming home with Dust.  Since we last saw Dust in India  and we have no way of assuming that Jean did or didn't leave Dust in India in X #133  why can't we just assume that Jean was in India for her third trip?

Here's my suggested version of Jean's trips:

X #128-133  Paris, Genosha, Mumbai.  All in the company of Prof. X.  Jean meets Dust but leaves her in India.  She returns home to the mansion with Prof. X (to appear off and on in UX #410-421[pp1-21pan1]).
X #134-138 p.9  Hong Kong.  Jean travels alone.  She returns home to appear off and on in UX #421[p21pan2]-434.
X #138 pp.10-21  somewhere.  Since she comes home with Dust, can we assume she was in India again?

> Uncanny X-Men #422 continues directly from the last page of issue #421 when the Alpha Flight arrives at the Mansion. Alpha Flight arrives two nights after Havok, Polaris and Nightcrawlker left the mansion. And Jean was among those X-Men seing the trio depart.

Well, not necessarily.  We see eleven figures on p.21-23 of UX #421, eight of whom are identified.  Of the remaining three, one is a woman wearing an X-jacket  but she has BROWN hair.  I'm willing to concede that it's PROBABLY meant to be Jean, though, given her presence throughout the rest of the issue.  So, I guess this scene takes place after her off-panel suggested return from Hong Kong, then

> However "two nights later" she is not among those who face the Alpha Flight.

Okay, so what's your point?  She doesn't show up in UX #422  that doesn't mean she was in another country.  The Beast and the White Queen don't show up in UX #422 either, but we know they're at the mansion.  It's simply a case of one writer leaving the other book's characters alone.

> > what's to stop us assuming that Jean made two separate trips?  One to Hong Kong over X #134-137 and the start of #138, and one to India at the end of #138?  That way, she could appear at the mansion in UX #423-426 BETWEEN TRIPS.

> Any explanation why Dust would still be tagging along with Jean in both trips?

Yes  she was never tagging along with Jean at all.

> Any indication that she is Jean's new pet project?

None.  Heck, after #138, Jean seems to abandon her entirely  we next see Dust in Xorn's Special Class, and she and Jean haven't interacted once since X #138.

>> Following youp proposal, why would Jean return to India to collect Dust instead of taking the girl with her the first time around?

Perhaps Dust didnt want to emigrate to the USA the first time (after all, arent we the Great Satan?)  For Jean's second trip to India, she was there on unrelated X-Corp business, and after running into Dust again, she managed to convince her to enroll in Xavier's school.

> By the way does Draco so far have any effects on Nightcrawler's status as an X-Man.

None yet, but tI've thought of that  I'm keeping an eye on it, but hopefully he should still be around and able to appear in X #140 after UX #434.

> In New X-Men #140 he seems to be the only member of the Uncanny team to be present in the mansion.

Actually, I believe Archangel is there too.  Same panel.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 11, 2003 at 19:15:04:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
posted by Jeph! on September 11, 2003 at 11:24:32:

> Perhaps Dust didnt want to emigrate to the USA the first time (after all, arent we the Great Satan?)  

Maybe Dust just needed time to rest and recuperate in X-Corp Mumbai before she felt up to moving on.  After all, she wasn't in great shape when she arrived there.  

I don't see the problem here - what's the difficulty with Jean leaving Dust to recuperate, under the care of the permanent staff of X-Corp Mumbai, and going back later to collect her as a friendly face who'll accompany her to the USA?

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Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 11, 2003 at 08:12:29:
In Reply to: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
posted by Jeph! on September 11, 2003 at 02:32:26:

SPOILERS.








(Unless Cyclops and Wolverine are gone for many days when they're investigating the Weapon Plus program in X #142-145, and NM2 #1-4 occur at the school when they're gone  do Cyclops or Wolverine appear in NM2 #1-4?)

No.  

NM2 #1 takes place entirely out of the school, and has Dani Moonstar recruiting Sofia Mantega on her own initiative after seeing news coverage.

Issue #2 has Dani and Sofia arriving at the school the next day.  The art shows the school functioning normally but, in what seems to be a sop to New X-Men continuity, Xavier's dialogue says "We are currently on summer break, but we offer classes for those students who stay at the school.  You've arrived just at the start of the summer session."  

It's not totally inconceivable that the Mansion is still under lockdown at this point, but Dani is allowed to come and go freely because she's not under suspicion - she wasn't even in the state at the time.

Anyhow, Professor X is walking around in his New X-Men uniform.  The Beast is seen in one panel, teaching a class.  Northstar, in his Kia Asamiya costume, is teaching a flying class outside.  This story appears to take one day - Dani's wearing the same clothes throughout.

Issue #3 covers two days, with Dani going to Atlanta to recruit Kevin Ford.  Xavier is still on his feet at the mansion.  Annie Ghazikhanian is hanging around the infirmary but doesn't say anything.  Magma is comatose in the infirmary - so it's after UX 423, where the Church of Humanity dumped her on the lawn.  All of them are at the school on both days.  The Beast is teaching a maths class on the first day.

Issue #4 again seems to cover two days and has Dani travelling to Chicago, where she recruits David Alleyne and persuades Karma and her siblings to return to the Mansion.  It's probably the day after issue #3, since Kevin has only just been fitted out with new clothes.  Professor X is at the mansion and on his feet.  The school is obviously functioning normally, but we don't see any other members of the staff.

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Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 11, 2003 at 22:08:33:
In Reply to: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
posted by Jeph! on September 11, 2003 at 02:32:26:

Okay, my turn to chime in.  Jeph, I actually think X 146 has helped us straighten things out considerably, and may even allow me to place recent X issues in the late spring to conform to numerous temporal references.

I'm not yet prepared to assign new calendar dates, though.  I thought I'd present the following list of X-entries without dates, just to see if their chronological order makes sense.

I tried to strip out all previous, outdated notes, but I may have missed a few, so correct things if they don't look right.  And I didn't bother with W2 (and some XU) issues for now, opting to go with the team-oriented titles.

Here goes...

NEW X-MEN #131 (1)
One morning, probably a few days after X 130.  Scott and Emma are flying in an X-jet.

NEW X-MEN #131 (2/3) ~ X-TREME X-MEN #24 (17p1-17p3)
The same morning as X 131 (1) and the morning after XX 24 (15-16), so it is four days after X 130.  The X-Men attend Darkstars funeral in a rainy Paris.

X-TREME X-MEN #24 (17p4-18p2)
The same morning as XX 24 (17p1-17p3).  After the funeral, Cannonball quits X-Corp and Xavier gives him a playbill for a gig by Lila Cheney in Paris that night.

NEW X-MEN #131 (4-21)
The same day as X 131 (2/3).  Since Archangel (who is back at Xaviers now) is still blue here, this issue must occur before UX 410.  Logan has most recently been in Madripoor, according to Cyclops (and he's likely being dropped off in Afghanistan here).  It's the first time Scott and Jean have been together for weeks  since X 127.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

X-TREME X-MEN #24 (18p3-19)
The same night as XX 24 (17-18).  Cannonball reconnects with Lila Cheney and they teleport off Earth for some R&R.  It is technically months before XX 24 (20-21).

NEW X-MEN #132
Probably the day after X 131.  A group of X-Men are on their way from the Paris funeral of Darkstar to India when the stop in Genosha, where Storm has been for three days (thus missing the funeral), so it is more than three days since XX 1 (8-13).  Storm appears to have recovered, or so she may deceive herself into believing  and with Logan having left her for an important reason (Vatican or Madripoor), she has decided to go off to Genosha,  A comment by Sabra about this being the worst weekend of her life suggests that X 131 occurs on Saturday and this issue on a Sunday.  Polaris returns.  According to the introductory notes in X 133, it is one year after the destruction of Genosha in X 115, but that length of time may be too long  six months may be more appropriate; this is corroborated by the narration in UX 424, which occurs several months after X 115.

NEW X-MEN #133
Probably the day after X 132, as the X-Men arrive in India via commercial aircraft.  Wolverine travels separately from Afghanistan to meet them there.  Both Logan and Sunfire appear here, and it is likely this is before their encounter in XU 39/2.  Given that Logan recently left Storm in poor health, and theyre both in the same general area of the world, it makes sense that hed offer to meet her in Japan around now to use that countrys spas and check up on her (see XU 39/2).  Jean is seen flying to Mumbai with Professor Xavier when they prevent the hijacking of their plane.  Jean saves Xavier from an assassination attempt by Lilandra. Charles leaves to meet the Shiar and Jean inspects the X-Corporation Mumbai.  There she meets and apparently takes Dust under her protection, but Dust may have remained at X-Corp Mumbai for a time after this.  Full moon.

UNCANNY X-MEN #410
UNCANNY X-MEN #411
UNCANNY X-MEN #412
UNCANNY X-MEN #413
UX 410-413 occur during the course of a day, a year after XF 149 and a few weeks before UX 417 (8-22).  Since this story ends with Archangel losing his blue skin color, it must occur after X 131, and the reference to calling Lorna would place it after X 132.  Warren also breaks his arm and leg in this story.  Xavier, Jean, and Logan are here, back from their travels  Xavier is in Canada, inviting Sammy Pare to the school, Jean is at home with Scott, and Logan is on a mission to Cassidy Keep.  Chamber has gone off to college, so this occurs between Chamber 1 and 4.  Its discovered that Havok is still alive.  Husk is now working and living at the school.  Annie arrives at Xaviers with Carter, presumably invited by Cyclops, and gets pulled into being a triage nurse for the wounded X-Men.  Green grass and trees in Vancouver and upstate New York.  Jackets in Vancouver and warm weather at Xaviers.

UNCANNY X-MEN #414
One day, months after X 113.  Stacy X refers to UX 412 as having occurred the other day, but shes always practiced lazy language  clues in UX 415 tell us its been more than a week since UX 413.  Archangel is still in a cast.  Northstar accepts a teaching position at Xaviers, but is injured in an explosion that puts him in the infirmary.  If we wish to use XS 6-8 as the reason for Xaviers absence in UX 415, then we have to allow enough time between UX 414 and 415 for XS 6-8 to occur.  Green grass and trees in Ontario.

X-TREME X-MEN: X-POSE #2 (19-22)
One evening,about a week after XXX 2 (1-18).  Warren has white skin and no casts, so this segment must occur after UX 414.  It may occur shortly before Iceman discovers that Warren is out of his casts in UX 415.  Warren also sports cropped hair and a goatee, which he would had to have grown in the few days since UX 414.  The snow falling in Manhattan starts when Ororo confronts Warren, so it may be a subconscious manifestation of her mood.  Warren gives her a speech about the X-Men needing to portray a united front, with which Ororo disagrees.  Storm appears recovered here, but I theorize that she collapses right after this scene, and Logan realizes that they were kidding themselves into believing she was okay; he returns her to New Orleans for more rehabilitation.  The TV Guide on page 1 is for June, but a newspaper reads Friday, October something.

X-TREME X-MEN #24 (20-21p2)
One day, months after XX 24 (18-19), which is true, technically.  They return to Paris, where it is presumably spring (this must be a topical reference) and we see green grass and trees.

X-TREME X-MEN #20 (1-15)
One day.  Bishop and Sage have returned from California to rejoin Storm and Logan in New Orleans, where Logan oversees her (resumed) rehabilitation.  Logan tells Storm that nature has its own pace (a lesson theyve both learned now) and remarks that shes doing better than expected, nowhere as good as she wants.  Storm also bemoans the fact that the rehab for her injury in XX 18 is taking so long.  Sage refers to the events of X 115 as having occurred recently.  She also references the mutants they met in XXX 1 (8-13), which may not have been very recent, given her comment, Remember California?  Bishop talks of rejoining Xaviers band of X-Men, and Ororo may not have shared with him her encounter with Archangel in XXX 2 (19-22).  Bishop and Sage then investigate some murders on a night with a full moon.

X-TREME X-MEN #20 (16-22)
The day after XX 20 (1-15).  Bishop and Sage go to Xaviers, where they encounter Emma Frost and the mutant responsible for the murders.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

X-TREME X-MEN #21
The same day as XX 20 (16-22).  Bishop and Sage are teleported away from Xaviers while Emma Frost tries to deal with Garrett, who shes harboring while Professor X is away from the mansion, perhaps on his way back from his appearance in Los Angeles in XS 8 (1-6).  Storm tries to reason with Emma from New Orleans, where we see Logan starting to grow the goatee we see fully sprouted in UX 417 (8-22).  The weather at Xaviers is so cold that a lake on the grounds is iced over; this is inconsistent with the green grass and trees seen in XX 20 (16-22).

X-TREME X-MEN #22
The same night as XX 21.  Although a student at Xaviers refers to the events of XX 20 (16-22) as the other day, it must have actually been earlier this day.  Bishop and Sage storm the Xavier Institute, forcing Storm, despite her less-than-full recovery, to fly from New Orleans to New York, where she fights Emma.  We see snow on the ground at Xaviers, even before Storms arrival, and this is inconsistent with the green grass and trees seen not only in XX 20 but in this very issue.

X-TREME X-MEN #23 (1-16)	
The same night as XX 22.  The X-Men battle Elias Bogan in the Danger Room.

X-TREME X-MEN #24 (21p3-21p4)
Probably the morning after XX 23 (1-16).  In Paris, Cannonball and Lila have breakfast and read an on-line news item about the events of XX 20-22.

X-TREME X-MEN #23 (17-22)
The morning after XX 23 (1-16).  The X-Treme team disagree with Xaviers philosophy and leave Professor X, White Queen, and Jean Grey at the Institute, where we see snow.

UNCANNY X-MEN #415
One day, weeks after UX 413, although this reference is inconsistent with the one in UX 414 that UX 412 was the other day, given that UX 414 is referred to here as having occurred the other day.  It is a few days before UX 416.  Archangel is out of his casts, which surprises Iceman as its too soon for Warren to be healed.  Warrens goatee does not appear here; he may have shaved it since XXX 2 (19-22).  Northstar is in the infirmary.  Wolverine is not here, perhaps because hes tending to Storm in New Orleans. Green grass and trees at Westchester.  Full moon.

UNCANNY X-MEN #416
One day, a few days after UX 415.  Sammy hasnt been assigned a room at Xaviers yet and Xavier still hasnt given him an orientation, presumably because everyones so busy, even though its been weeks since he came on board in UX 410.  Sammy hasnt made friends yet, but he and Juggernaut start to bond.  Given his awe of X-Men, Glob Hermans appearance here probably predates his joining the Omega Gang in X 135.  Stacy X is released from the infirmary while Northstar is still recuperating.  Lorna has been called about Alex and is expected to arrive at Xaviers in the morning (it is not known where she has been since hooking back up with the X-Men in X 132).  We see green grass and trees at Westchester.  It is cool enough for jackets and trench coats.

UNCANNY X-MEN #417 (1-7)
It must be the same night as UX 416.  As Warren sleeps, dreaming of Psylocke, Paige makes a discovery on the internet about one of Warrens businesses.

UNCANNY X-MEN #417 (8-22)
The day after UX 417 (1-7).  It is a few weeks after UX 410-413.  The weather is nice enough for a game of catch.  Husk is dwelling on her past relationship with Chamber; this suggests that this issue must occur before Jonathons return to Xaviers at the end of Chamber #4.  Wolverine is with the group in New York (suggesting that he and Ororo have separated, at least temporarily ).  He has the goatee seen in XX 21, and he gets slashed up by Maximus Lobo.

UNCANNY X-MEN #418
The same day as the UX 417 (8-22).  Lorna arrives at Xaviers, so it must be the day after UX 416.  Archangel and Husk try to take on Maximus Lobo.  Green trees in Westchester County.

UNCANNY X-MEN #419
The same day as UX 418.  Archangel and Husk have a respite from Maximus Lobos attack while Havok awakens at Xaviers and Nightcrawler questions God.  Green grass and trees in New York.

UNCANNY X-MEN #420
The same day as UX 419.  Warren discovers that his blood has healing powers as the X-Men defeat Maximus Lobo and his Dominant Species werewolves.  Given Warrens discovery, this story must occur before XU 45 (24).  Green grass and trees in New York.

UNCANNY X-MEN #421 (1-21p1)
Probably the day after UX 420.  Scott and Jean seem to be on friendly terms, so this segment should occur prior to Jeans trip to Hong Kong, first referenced in X 134 (3-22).  Juggernaut asks to stay with the X-Men.  Professor X fills Havok in on what he missed during his coma, then Polaris proposes to Havok and they plan to leave on an archaeological dig.  Nightcrawler decides to join them.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

X-MEN UNLIMITED #44
One hot day, with green grass and trees in Westchester.  Given the relationship that has grown between Sammy and Juggernaut, this story likely occurs after UX 421 (1-21) and before Sammys departure in UX 422.  Jean is at Xaviers in this story, and she meets Sammy for the first time, so it cant be very long after UX 410.  Kurt appears here, but he doesnt appear to be in a position of leadership, which is consistent with his status between UX 421 (1-21) and UX 421 (21-22).  Logan is here without a goatee; apparently hes shaved the goatee he sported in XX 21 and UX 417-420.  Juggernaut learns a lesson as the X-Men deal with some local boys who torture animals.  There appears to be no school today, so it is likely a weekend day if this occurs during the school season (although there are apparently Sunday classes, as in X 135).

X-MEN UNLIMITED #45 (1-24p2)
One day.  A jealous co-worker nearly slays Guardian, and during the ensuing battle, Heather Hudson gives birth to a girl  so it is less than nine months after BP3 43.  It is days before XU 45 (24).  Earthmover, who must appear here after W2 180 (21-23), wants to go to a Canadiens game, so it must be after the pre-season begins in late September.  Green grass and trees in Canada.

X-MEN UNLIMITED #45 (24p3-24p7)
One day, days after XU 45 (1-24).  Archangel has used his new healing power to save Guardian, so this segment must occur between UX 420 and UX 421 (23-24).  Jean and Logan (sans goatee) are here too.  The three X-Men may have been summoned the day of Macs near death in XU 45 (1-24) and have remained with Alpha Flight until Angels healing allowed Mac to regain consciousness in this segment.

NEW X-MEN #134 (1-2)
One rainy night.  Mutant designer Jumbo Carnation dies in Alphabet City.  This event is noted as having occurred the other night in X 135 (1-14).

NEW X-MEN #134 (3-22)
The day after X 134 (1-2).  Logan is not at Xaviers.  Reference is made to Jean being in Hong Kong and expected home soon after being away for a while; however, it seems Jean may run into unexpected delays, as she doesnt make it back home until X 138 (16-23).  We see green grass and autumn leaves in Westchester and there is a reference that is made to it being late summer.

NEW X-MEN #135 (1-14)
A school day at Xaviers.  Xavier notes that he is opening the doors to the Institute to non-mutants in three days time.  Since X 138 labels Open Day a Wednesday, this then must be a Sunday; X 121 establishes that Xaviers doesnt hold to traditional human school practices, so there may very well be Sunday classes.  Quentin Quire has changed considerably in recent weeks.  Quire refers to the murder of Jumbo Carnation in X 134 (1-2) as having occurred the other night.  Glob Herman probably appears here after UX 416.  We see green grass and trees in Westchester and its seasonable enough for Xorns Special Class (which is convening for the first time) to go camping.  Because of its special nature, Xorns class may not follow the traditional semester.  High on kick, Quentin Quire and his Omega Gang assault a group of mutant-hating youths.

NEW X-MEN #135 (15-22)
The day after X 135 (1-14).  Xavier discusses the Quire situation telepathically with his X-Men, including Jean, who is still in Hong Kong, and Logan, who isnt necessarily at Xaviers.  Xorn continues the camping trip with the Special Class.  Green grass and trees.

NEW X-MEN #136 (1-21)
The night of the day after X 135 (15-22).  The Omega Gang attacks a group of U-Men, and a squad of U-Men attacks the Special Class, who are still on the camping trip.  Beak and Angel have sex, apparently for the first time, given the dialog.  Xorn defeats the U-Men and the class is taken back to Xaviers school, where the Omega Gang capture Xavier.  It is before a Friday.  Green grass and trees.

NEW X-MEN #136 (22)
The morning after X 136 (1-21).  It is Open Day at Xaviers, the day that Xavier has invited non-mutants to tour the school for possible enrollment, perhaps for the semester following this.  The Omega Gang begin their attack on the school.  According to XX 24, this issue occurs after XX 23.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.

NEW X-MEN #137
The same day as X 136 (22).  Wolverine is back at Xaviers, sporting a goatee once more.  The X-Men battle the Omega Gang.  In the end, Quentin Quire is defeated and Sophie of the Stepford Cuckoos is killed.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.

NEW X-MEN #138 (1-6)
The same day as X 137.  The X-Men deal with the aftermath of the Omega Gangs riot on a Wednesday.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.

X-TREME X-MEN #24 (21p5-22p1)
Probably the day after X 138 (1-6).  Still in Paris, Cannonball and Lila learn of the riot at Xaviers via the internet.

NEW X-MEN #138 (7-9)
It is a Tuesday, presumably six days after X 138 (1-6), but Emma mentions that Sophie died yesterday, making this segment the day after X 137, a Thursday.  The remaining Stepford Cuckoos announce that they will depart Xaviers after the upcoming prize-giving ceremony and walk out on Emma Frost, who notes that she is twenty-seven.  This would make her a teenager at the time of her debut in UX 129.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.

UNCANNY X-MEN #421 (21p2-23p6)
One day.  Havok and Polaris leave with Nightcrawler for Bermuda.  Cyclops is among those who see them off, but Jean is not.  Scott tells Alex that Alex just got back from his coma, so the time between UX 419 and this segment must be fairly short.  It is two days before UX 421 (23-24).  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.			

UNCANNY X-MEN #422  FB
One day.  Stacy X makes a risque video for Warren before leaving Xaviers.

UNCANNY X-MEN #421 (23p7-24)
Probably the same night as UX 422-FB.  2 nights after UX 421 (21-23), Alpha Flight barges into Xaviers school to take the children.  Heather Hudson is no longer pregnant and James Hudson is healed, so this segment must occur after XU 45 (24)  and apparently the Hudsons gratefulness for Warren saving James has waned.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.

UNCANNY X-MEN #422
The same night as UX 421 (23-24).  Nightcrawler, Havok, and Polaris discover an ancient mutant city on an archaeological dig and encounter the Church of Humanity.  Warren watches Stacys video.  Chamber appears here at Xaviers shortly after his return in Chamber #4.  Alpha Flight have come to retrieve the children at Xaviers school in the wake of the recent riot of X 135-137.  The X-Men battle Alpha Flight and only Squidboy ends up leaving Xaviers in the end.  A conversation between Juggernaut and Squidboy leads one to assume that Emma is alive, so this issue must occur before X 139 (21-22).  It is a few weeks before UX 423 and 429, but also presumably a few months before UX 424  only one can be correct, probably the former.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.  Full moon.

MYSTIQUE #1 (1-8)
One night.  It must be a weeknight, as Charles Xavier appears on Nightline.  Jean is at Xaviers.  We learn that Xavier has covert operatives in the world and that one has been killed on a mission.

MYSTIQUE #1 (9-23)
The early morning after MYS 1 (1-8).  At 2:54 AM, Xavier arrives at Forges apartment in Baltimore to ask him to find Mystique.  From the dialogue, it appears that Xavier and Forge have been out-of-touch for quite a while, an indication that this segment occurs before UX 425 (5-17).  At 3:12 AM, Mystique is on a mission in Washington DC.

MYSTIQUE #2
The same early morning as MYS 1 (9-23).  At 3:27 AM, Forge discovers the whereabouts of Mystique, who is captured by government agents at 3:29 AM.  At 4:36 AM, the captive Mystique awakens in a DHS flying justice unit, where she faces Johnny Kitano, a mutant whose mission is to eliminate mutant threats to the government.  Mystique is rescued by Xavier, who is disguised as Magneto.  Full moon.

MYSTIQUE #3
The same day as MYS 2.  Xavier and Forge send Mystique to Cuba on a clandestine mission to destroy two mutant-killing robots. Once there, she meets her handler, Shortpack.  Green vegetation in New York.

MYSTIQUE #4
The same day as MYS 3.  Mystique insinuates her way to Luis Diosvil, the man who purchased the Sentinels and is conducting experiments on Cuban mutants.  She assumes his identity, only to face a band of freedom fighters.

MYSTIQUE #5
The same night as MYS 4.  Mystique sides with the freedom fighters and battles Disovils soldiers.  She finds the knidnapped children, only to learn that she must kill little Evangelina Rivera to stop the Sentinels.

MYSTIQUE #6
The same night as MYS 5.  

UNCANNY X-MEN #423
One day, a few weeks after UX 422.  Nightcrawler, Havok, Polaris, Cyclops, and Jean (apparently back from Hong Kong) are all at Xaviers.  Logans goatee is gone and he has a new outfit, black with yellow tiger stripes.  The Church of Humanity leaves a calling card in front of Xaviers  a bunch of crucified mutants, including Jubilee, Skin, Jesse Bedlam, and Magma, shortly before NM2 3 (1-19).  Archangels healing powers save some of them, but Angelo dies.  Xorn and Xavier cannot be reached; Xavier probably has left the school as he intended to do.  After Cyclops chews out Kurt for not briefing the team about the Church, they discover that someones been messing with Kurt through his presumed life as a priest.  That night, they find slaughtered mutants beneath St. Michaels Church.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

UNCANNY X-MEN #424 (1-5p1)
The same night as UX 423.  At St. Michaels church, the X-Men discover the plot of the Church of Humanity and decide to head to Montana to fight it.  It is several months after the destruction of Genosha in X 115.

UNCANNY X-MEN #424 (5p2-24p2)
The day after UX 424 (1-5).  It is presumably a few months after UX 422, but this cant be correct, given that UX 423 is only a few weeks after UX 422.   The X-Men attack the Church of Humanity compound in Montana, where we see green grass.  The X-Men prevail.

UNCANNY X-MEN #424 (24p3-24p8)
One day, days after UX 424 (5-24).  Nightcrawler thinks about the Church of Humanitys pope and reflects on his own abiding faith.  We see green trees and a butterfly at Xaviers.

UNCANNY X-MEN #425 (1-4)
One night.  Havok has a romantic dream about Annie.

UNCANNY X-MEN #425 (5-17p1)
The day after UX 425 (1-4).  Iceman refers to having turned to solid ice the other day.  At Alexs bachelor party, Alex comes to grips with his feelings for Annie.  Forge is there, probably after MYS 1-6.  At Lornas bachelorette party, Lorna ends up with a stripper dressed like Gambit, while Iceman hooks up with Annie.  Xavier is still nowhere to be seen.  Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch appear at the parties (and at the wedding).  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

UNCANNY X-MEN #425 (17p2-23)
The day after UX 425 (5-16).  Realizing his true feelings, Alex calls a halt to the wedding ceremony.  Professor X is among the attendees, as is Forge, so this segment likely occurs after MYS 2; perhaps Xavier and Forge traveled together from DC to New York to attend the wedding.  It also appears that Soldier X and Domino are here, probably sometime between SX 7 and WX2 6 (18-23).  Rogue and Gambit are here, but the X-Treme team doesnt seem to be, and neither does Chamber.  Magma cannot be one of those present, as she is in a coma.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers, where it is warm enough for an outdoor wedding; in fact, Alex remarks that its hot today, but given the circumstances, it may just be him.  However, the hot comment would make sense if an unusual warm spell hit the U.S., causing the same heat shown in H3 38.   My placement of the wedding here means that Alexs and Lornas engagement lasted five weeks.

UNCANNY X-MEN #426
The same day as UX 425 (17-23).  According to the narrative summary, it s a few months after UX 419, but it may only be about a month and a half.  Havok refers to UX 424 (5-24) as having occurred recently.  He also notes that the last few weeks have been so chaotic.  The scorned Polaris attempts to kill Havok and Annie, but shes taken out by Juggernaut.  Havok and Annie discover that theyve had a relationship, thanks to the mutant power of Annies son Carter.  Alex and Annie jet to Paris for a day to turn their fantasy relationship to reality.  This issue must occur before EXILES 28.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

EXILES #28
Probably the day after UX 426, since Annie tells Paige about her and Alexs time in Paris the previous night.  Wolf-kid Nicholas Gleason cuts Havok open and good Alex is replaced by a bad Alex, who attacks the mutants at Xaviers.  The Exiles teleport in to stop bad Alex and the Dominant Species werewolves show up.  Warren admits his love for Paige and discovers that his uncle is responsible for the shenanigans at Lobo Tech.  Wolverine has no goatee and is wearing is tiger-stripe costume.  We see green grass and trees and blowing leaves and Xaviers.  It is warm enough outdoors for short sleeves, so we may be seeing the same warm spell shown in UX 426 and H3 38.

EXILES #29
The same day as EXILES 28.  The Exiles and the X-Men battle both the bad Alex and the Dominant Species werewolves.  Kurt notes that the X-Mens jets are all out, that they wrecked a few lately, and that Cyclops group has something big going.  Green grass and trees in New York.

EXILES #30 (1-21)
The same day as EXILES 29.  The Exiles and X-Men defeat the werewolves.   Nocturne sends bad Alex to the empty void whence he came and good Alex returns.  The Tallus gives the Exiles four days to stay with the X-Men, until EXILES 30 (22-23).  During that four days, no other X-adventures are likely to occur.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.

EXILES #30 (22-23)
One day, four days after EXILES 30 (1-21).  The Exiles say their goodbyes to the X-Men, and Warren keeps Illyanas sword.  Green trees at Xaviers.

UNCANNY X-MEN #427
One day.  Warren, Paige, and Jubilee visit Skins grave in Los Angeles, where we see green grass and trees.  It is long enough after UX 423 for Angelo to have been buried.  In fact, this story may occur after EXILES 30 (22-23).  The narration notes that this story occurs after a month that included the attacks by the Church of Humanity and by Polaris  I interpret this to mean that those events occurred in the same month and that this story is set early in the following month.  Husk and Jubilee deal with the exhumation and cremation of Angelos body because of cemetery policy regarding mutants, while Archangel uses his healing power to save some hospitalized kids.

UNCANNY X-MEN #429
One day.  It is a few weeks after UX 422 and some time after UX 406 (1-21).  One early morning, Nightcrawler inexplicably jets off from Westchester and as Xavier prepares to send a team after him, he has an altercation with Juggernaut and a restrained Polaris spouts off at Annie.  Several hours later, the X-Men arrive at Isla des Demonas, where they find Kurt participating in a strange ritual.  We see a full moon and green grass and trees at Xaviers and bathing suit weather off Florida.

UNCANNY X-MEN #430
The same day as UX 429.  It is a few weeks after UX 422.  Sammy is abused by his father at his home in Vancouver, where we see green trees.  Xorn wants to put Carter in his special class (and reveals some Magneto-like thoughts).  Xavier and Annie explore Lornas mind to find the reason for her recent behavior.  The X-Men are attacked by demonic creatures as they try to rescue Kurt from Isla des Demonas, then they are engulfed in an explosion.

UNCANNY X-MEN #431
The same day as UX 429.  Given Xorn has not yet revealed is identity and Xavier is still walking, this issue must occur before X 146; indeed, since Scott is still with the X-Men, this issue must occur before X 139 (1-20)

X-TREME X-MEN #24 (22p2)
One day.  Cannonball learns that things with the X-Treme team are serious, though Im not sure what the exact reference is.

X-TREME X-MEN #24 (22p3-23)
One day.  Cannonball calls Storm to Paris, where we see green trees.  Storm wears the miniskirt we saw in XX 23.  He accepts her offer to join the X-Treme team.		

X-TREME X-MEN #25
One day.  It is probably a weekday during the college year.  In freeing Stryker from incarceration, Deathstrike makes it appear that Stryker was killed in an airplane explosion by the X-Men.  We see snow in the Rockies and green trees in Kentucky, where Cannonball has invited Storm, Bishop, Sage, and Wolverine (sans goatee).  The X-Men investigate the site of the plane crash.  Kitty sees her school psychologist, and that night, she is abducted from the Belles of Hell by Deathstrike and Stryker.

X-TREME X-MEN #26
The same day as XX 25.  The X-Treme team battle Strykers troops in the snowy Rockies and take captives as they try to figure out what Stryker is up to.  Stryker tries to break Kittys will, but fails.  Deathstrike is forced to try to kill Stryker by the man who runs Mount Haven, who views Stryker as a threat.  Stryker escapes with Kitty in hand.

X-TREME X-MEN #27 (1-13)
The same night as XX 26.  Shadowcat phases cross-country as the earth as it spins on its axis, causing Storm to lose control in the Rockies, creating a blizzard and undoing all the good work....accomplished these past months in physical therapy.  Waning crescent moon.

X-TREME X-MEN #27 (14-23)
The day after XX 27 (1-13).  Kitty finds herself in Mt. Haven, where we see green grass and trees and warm weather.

X-TREME X-MEN #28
The same day as XX 27 (14-23).  Stryker and Deathstrike defeat Kitty and the X-Treme team at Mt. Haven, where we see green trees and warm weather.  Cannonball vows to save the day.

X-TREME X-MEN #29
The same day as XX 28.  Cannonball fights Deathstrike after she seemingly kills Logan, then he faces a brainwashed Storm.  Bishop faces a brainwashed Sage.  Stryker shows Kitty the truth behind Mt. Haven, then strikes her and Reverend Paul down.  Green grass and trees and warm weather in Washington state.

X-TREME X-MEN #30
The same day as XX 29.  Logan recovers and many of Mt. Havens nannite-infested residents die when Paul is out of commission.  Stryker and Kitty discover that Paul is a cybernetic sentient and Stryker sacrifices his freedom to keep Paul contained.  That night in Chicago, the X-Men hang at the Belles of Hell and Kitty considers running for alderman in a municipal election this fall.  Green grass and trees in Washington state.

NEW X-MEN #138 (10-14)
A Thursday.  Xorn helps Quentin Quire cast off his physical body and achieve another plane of existence; it is not known how long Quire may have spent at Xaviers in a catatonic state.  Xavier notes that the school will be closing for the summer in exactly six days.  He also notes that after the break, he will step down as headmaster.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.

NEW X-MEN #138 (15)
The day after X 138 (10-14), a Friday.  Emma Frost goes clothes shopping with Angel.  According to X 140, this segment occurs a few days before X 139 (21-22).

NEW X-MEN #138 (16-23)
The day after X 138 (15), a Saturday.  We see a prize-giving ceremony at Xaviers  this is a year-end ceremony that probably occurs between the end of the spring session and the beginning of the summer session shown in NM2 2.  Angel informs Beak that shes pregnant with his child; this revelation so soon after their apparent first sexual encounter in X 136 (1-21) is an indication that Angels physiology is radically different from a normal humans; this is confirmed by Beaks statement in X 141 that there is a life cycle of, like, only five days between the sex and the birth, but this doesnt mean that Angels pregnancy lasts only that long  it cant be less than five days after X 136 (1-21), given the other temporal references in this run of issues.  That night, Jean Grey returns to Xaviers with Dust, who she may have retrieved after Dust spent some time in India after X 133).  Jean finds Scott and Emma in a compromising situation.  That Jean is fetching mutants for Xaviers may be a clue that this segment occurs before NM2 2, where Dani gets the job of recruiter.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.

NEW X-MEN #139 (1-20)
The same night as X 138 (16-23).  An angry Jean mucks around with Emmas mind and the X-Men grow concerned about Jeans Phoenix power.  Cyclops takes off.  The Stepford Cuckoos state that school is over for the summer, implying that, while the school itself is to close on the upcoming Wednesday, classes are already over.  We see green grass and trees at Xaviers.

NEW MUTANTS v2 #1 (10-25)
One school day.  Rejected on her sixteenth birthday by her father and her classmates, Sofia Mantega destroys one of her fathers supermarkets and is thrown in jail.  Dani Moonstar shows up to take Sofia to Xaviers, which is publicly known as a school for mutants with bad publicity, a clue that this segment occurs after the riot in X 138 (1-6).  It is clear that Dani does not live at Xaviers, but rather in Colorado.  It is a Friday in May.  We see green grass and trees in Boulder.

NEW MUTANTS v2 #2
The day after NM2 1 (10-25).  NM2 2-FB is noted as having occurred last year, although this may be a reference to last school year.  Dani and Sofia arrive at Xaviers, where they meet Professor X, who notes that it is the start of the summer session and that some students have gone home for the summer.  This is an indication that this issue occurs after the prize-giving ceremony in X 138 (16-23).  The fact that some students remain for classes appears to contradict the statement in X 138 (10-14) that the school would close for the summer.  Xavier is still here, apparently before the time he planned to leave the school, as noted in X 138 (10-14).  And we do have confirmation that classes do not observe a conventional schedule, as it must be Saturday, since NM2 1 (10-25) is noted as having occurred yesterday.  Dani is no longer a teenager, but it wasnt long ago that she was.  Dani arranges for Sofia to room with Laurie Collins and agrees to be Xaviers recruiter  presumably after Jeans assumption of that role through X 138 (16-23).  Northstar appears here.  Green grass and trees and jacket weather at Xaviers.

NEW MUTANTS v2 #3 (1-19)
One day.  While Magma lays in a coma (where shes been since just after UX 423), Dani recruits a mutant with decaying power in Atlanta, where we see green grass and trees.  School is in session, both at Xaviers (where Beast is teaching as part of summer session) and at a public high school (not summer vacation yet), where student Kevin Ford hasnt reported for the last two days.  There is a reference to finals at the high school, and Dani claims to represent a summer program.  We see short sleeves at Xaviers.

NEW MUTANTS v2 #3 (20-22)
The day after NM2 3 (1-19).  Kevin Ford is examined at Xaviers and Xavier reveals the comatose Magma to Dani.  Since Xavier is walking here, this segment must occur before X 146.

NEW X-MEN #139 (21-22)
One night.  According to X 140, this segment occurs a few days after X 138 (15).  Beast finds Emmas diamond body smashed to pieces.  Given Emmas seeming death here, this segment must occur after UX 422.

NEW X-MEN #140 (1-14)
The day after X 139 (21-22).  It is sometime after XX 23 (17-22).  Summer vacation is cancelled until further notice, while Bishop and Sage are called in to investigate Emma Frosts murder.  Late this day, the Stepford Cuckoos note that school ought to have closed for summer by now, so it is likely that this is the day the school was scheduled to close, six days after X 138 (10-14).  Scott is still absent. Nightcrawler is back from the archaeological expedition.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

NEW X-MEN #140 (15-22)
The day after X 140 (1-14).  Bishop and Sage continue their investigation, and Angels brood of larvae are discovered.

NEW X-MEN #141
The same day as X 140 (15-22).  Angels brood hatches.  The X-Men discover that Angel and Beak were set up to take the fall for Emmas murder by Esme and a partner whose identity remains unknown, as Esme mindwipes Bishop and Sage to escape.  Bishop wonders where Scott has been.  Phoenix fuses Emmas diamond pieces back together, allowing Emmas disembodied spirit to return to her body.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.  Esme makes another reference to summer.

NEW X-MEN #142
One night, probably within a couple of days after X 141, since it is unlikely that Xavier and Bishop would dawdle about trying to find Cyclops.  Wolverine (sans goatee, and probably wearing the new outfit with yellow stripes under his jacket) finds Scott at the Hellfire Club trying to get drunk.  Sabretooth is also there, and it appears that hes on his own reconnaissance, so this story must fit into a gap in his chronology sometime before his capture in WX2 3 (10-20).  Logan is also at the Hellfire Club to meet with Fantomex to begin a mission to take down the Weapon Plus program, and he tries to get Cyclops to join them.  The narration notes Emmas murder in X 139 (21-22) as having occurred last month, but it must be only days earlier.

NEW X-MEN #143
Probably the early morning after X 142; since Scott is expected to have a hangover, it is likely several hours after X 142, but it is still dark out.  Logan, Scott, and Fantomex infiltrate the evolutionary engineering facility, the World.  There they encounter AIM agents who have been attacked by Weapon XV.

NEW X-MEN #144
The same early morning as X 143.  Inside the World, Logan, Scott, and Fantomex encounter Weapon XV, who breaks free and heads for the Weapon Plus space station.  Full moon.

NEW X-MEN #145
The same day as X 144.  Logan, Scott, and Fantomex follow Weapon XV to the Weapon Plus space station, where Logan accesses files concerning his identity, then, desperate and disturbed, he blows up the station.

NEW X-MEN #146
The same day as X 145.  Having escaped the satellite in a spacecraft, Scott and Fantomex crash into the Pacific Ocean.  Beast and Emma head out to retrieve them, but their aircraft is sabotaged.  Phoenix departs for space to retrieve Logan, who she finds alive. Jean and Wolverine discover that the Weapon Plus space program is Asteroid M, which is also rigged to explode.  Xavier formally meets Dust, so this issue cant occur long after UX 138 (16-23).  Dust attacks and disables Cerebra at the order of Xorn, who cripples Xavier and reveals himself to be Magneto.  Xavier states that he still hopes to step down this summer as headmaster of the Institute.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

NEW X-MEN #147
The same day as X 146.  

How does this all look?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
Posted by Jeph! on September 12, 2003 at 11:05:01:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 11, 2003 at 22:08:33:

> How does this all look?

Good so far to me -- but man, what a long-winded way of saying that you agree with me!  ;-)

-Jeph!

PS -- Good call on placing those NM2 issues into the small gap at the end of X #139 -- however, if all six issues of the first NM2 arc won't fit there, would you consider having some occur DURING X #142-145, after the lockdown has been lifted, and while Cyclops and Wolverine are investigating Weapon Plus for an unknown number of days?

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 13, 2003 at 16:55:41:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
posted by Jeph! on September 12, 2003 at 11:05:01:

> PS -- Good call on placing those NM2 issues into the small gap at the end of X #139 -- however, if all six issues of the first NM2 arc won't fit there, would you consider having some occur DURING X #142-145, after the lockdown has been lifted, and while Cyclops and Wolverine are investigating Weapon Plus for an unknown number of days?

I've interpreted Scott's and Logan's Weapon Plus mission as occurring in a very short time period.  However, if you can suggest gaps in X 142-145, we'll see about placing NM2 4-6 there IF NEED BE.  We'll see how long those three issues take, and how liberally we want to interpret the "few days" between X 138 (15) and X 139 (21-22).

Are you ready to sign off on the order of all these comics?  I do have a few questions now to help with calendar placement...

(1) Can we place all XX entries starting with XX 20 (1-15) BETWEEN UX 431 and X 138 (10-14)?

(2) Can Quentin Quire spend several months catatonic at Xavier's before moving onto another plane of existence?

(3) When the surviving Stepford Cuckoos tell Emma that they're leaving Xavier's after the prize-giving ceremony, can we interpret this to mean that they're leaving AFTER THE END OF THE SCHOOL YEAR, no matter how long that may be?  Perhaps we might assume that they cannot transfer to their intended new school during the school year and must wait until summer?

As you might tell, now that we've opened up a gap between pages 9 and 10 of X 139 (by not assuming those days-of-the-week references in X 139 were the SAME week), I'd like that gap to be a large one (fall to spring).  This would:

1) Allow us to keep the calendar placement of Heather Hudson's baby's birth where it is and honor temporal references in surrounding and subsequent issues of UX.

2) Honor the temporal references of snow and cold in XX 22 and the spring reference and months-long absence of Cannoball in XX 24 -- by placing these XX issues in the gap.

3) Honor those many summer references in recent issues of New X-Men and New Mutants.

How about it?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
Posted by Dimadick on September 14, 2003 at 02:59:33:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 13, 2003 at 16:55:41:

> Are you ready to sign off on the order of all these comics?  I do have a few questions now to help with calendar placement...

> (1) Can we place all XX entries starting with XX 20 (1-15) BETWEEN UX 431 and X 138 (10-14)?

> (2) Can Quentin Quire spend several months catatonic at Xavier's before moving onto another plane of existence?

> (3) When the surviving Stepford Cuckoos tell Emma that they're leaving Xavier's after the prize-giving ceremony, can we interpret this to mean that they're leaving AFTER THE END OF THE SCHOOL YEAR, no matter how long that may be?  Perhaps we might assume that they cannot transfer to their intended new school during the school year and must wait until summer?

> As you might tell, now that we've opened up a gap between pages 9 and 10 of X 139 (by not assuming those days-of-the-week references in X 139 were the SAME week), I'd like that gap to be a large one (fall to spring).  This would:

> 1) Allow us to keep the calendar placement of Heather Hudson's baby's birth where it is and honor temporal references in surrounding and subsequent issues of UX.

> 2) Honor the temporal references of snow and cold in XX 22 and the spring reference and months-long absence of Cannoball in XX 24 -- by placing these XX issues in the gap.

> 3) Honor those many summer references in recent issues of New X-Men and New Mutants.

Interesting suggestion. This would meen thot Morrison's run of New X-Men's has indeed covered an entire school year. Could this account for the latest string of Wolverine's solo adventures? Issues #159-#176 of his own title read as one long saga as he is directed and/or manipulated from one adventure to the other with little to no time for breaks. They also lay the ground for the Weapon X series.The second story of issue #183 deals with the aftermath of this saga and have Wolverine facing Lady Deathstrike with both of them declining to kill each other. Since then Wolvie seems to be rather directionless.

Issues #177-178 feature his adventure from New York to the Vatican and the death of Father Braun. Funny little storie. Doing some research on it I found that the terms "Black Pope" or "Shadow Pope" used in it are informal titles gived to the Generals of the Jesuits by their enemies. Or at least those who believe them to be the power behind the Papal throne. The current General is Cardinal Hans Kolvenbach, a member of the German nobility who has inherited the title of Count. He seems to be a popular target for conspiracy theorists who view him as a ruthless conspirator. Perhaps the model for the storie's "Cardinal Panzer"?

Issues #179-#180 feature Wolvie offering Alpha Flight a helping hand. He is meditating in Westchester when he is summoned to their headquarters in Vancouver. He helps Shaman, Sasquatch, Puck and Snowbird defeat a deamon. Vindicator and Guardian are absent and as Shaman says: "Thankfuly occupied with the joyousness of Heather's pregnancy". After the deamon's death Wolvie briefly trains the debuting Earthmover.

Issues #181-#186 feature Mr Howlett's dealings with the Pazzo crime family. The first issue serves as a prologue and has him saving a little girl from her three abductors. When the girl mistakes him Spider-Man Logan comments that the later is a "sissy". Wolvie procedes to offer his services to Freddo Pazzo for a while in order to ensure that the girl stays unharmed. When Freddo double-crosses him, Wolvie sets up Freddo's murder and his replacement by his own uncle Johny Delacavva. He then explained that he didn't even know the girl or her father. He had just heard his story in a bar.The last issue is an epilogue featuring Wolverine confonted by Punisher in relation to his choice of leaving Delacavva alive. After beating up Mr. Castle he apparently discovers that the later is attracted to men. Frank has had several female lovers in the past though. Bysexual?.

Issue #187 has James traveling the USA with his bike for no apparent reason. When he targets a serial killer thanks to his senses, he gets the killer to offer him a drive with his truck. They drink whiskey, Logan gets him to confess and then proceeds in helping him suicide by driving the truck off a cliff.

Issues #188-#189 feature Wolvie helping drunkard Detective Lester Brown find evidence connecting highly respected Detective Scott McLawry to a series of murders.

The title procedes to have a rather pointless relaunch which hardly manages to change its direction as it claimed. Issues #1-#4 are part of a yet incomplete storyline featuring Wolverine investigating the murder of seventeen-year-old Lucy Braddock. Lucy was apparently Logan's next-door neighbour in his private apartment and waitress at a dinner he frequents. He apparently was there everyday reading a different book. He apparently had enough time in his hands to finish reading a book in a single day. He has this far located Lucy's hometown of Westfall (Population:302) and her father Joe Braddock. Seemingly no relation to the British Braddocks.

Wolvie seems to have a lot of free time to spend, chooses his missions randomly and seems to have moved out of the mansion. No reccuring character has appeared in his title following the Punisher. Could issues #177-#189 fit in this period of relative inactivitie for the X-Men you suggest? By the way any idea where would the "rematch" between Mr. Howlett and Mr. Castle could fit in the later's chronologie?

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 14, 2003 at 05:58:13:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
posted by Dimadick on September 14, 2003 at 02:59:33:

> Wolvie seems to have a lot of free time to spend, chooses his missions randomly and seems to have moved out of the mansion.

True enough.  It's worth mentioning that the city where he's shacked up reading books in Wolverine #1 is not New York - several issues later, a throwaway line establishes that it was Portland, Oregon.  What the hell was he doing there?  God only knows.

Taking a holiday after the current X-Men storyline blows over, perhaps?

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
Posted by Dimadick on September 14, 2003 at 07:06:02:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
posted by Paul O'Brien on September 14, 2003 at 05:58:13:

> Taking a holiday after the current X-Men storyline blows over, perhaps?

Which one? Following the "Assault on Weapon Plus" (New X-Men), "The Draco" (Uncanny X-Men) or "God Loves, Man Kills II" (X-Treme X-Men)? He seems to be involved in all of them.

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 14, 2003 at 21:14:59:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
posted by Dimadick on September 14, 2003 at 02:59:33:

> Interesting suggestion. This would meen thot Morrison's run of New X-Men's has indeed covered an entire school year. Could this account for the latest string of Wolverine's solo adventures? 

Yes, it would make a convenient time for many of Logan's adventures, but not all...

> Issues #179-#180 feature Wolvie offering Alpha Flight a helping hand. He is meditating in Westchester when he is summoned to their headquarters in Vancouver. He helps Shaman, Sasquatch, Puck and Snowbird defeat a deamon. Vindicator and Guardian are absent and as Shaman says: "Thankfuly occupied with the joyousness of Heather's pregnancy". After the deamon's death Wolvie briefly trains the debuting Earthmover.

Ah, but Heather's pregancy must place this story before she gives birth, and that occurs before the proposed gap.

I suppose everything from issue #181 up, though, might work in the gap.  I'll work on that after I deal with calendar placement of the group titles.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
Posted by Jeph! on September 14, 2003 at 15:30:25:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 13, 2003 at 16:55:41:

> Good call on placing those NM2 issues into the small gap at the end of X #139 -- however, if all six issues of the first NM2 arc won't fit there, would you consider having some occur DURING X #142-145?

> I've interpreted Scott's and Logan's Weapon Plus mission as occurring in a very short time period.  However, if you can suggest gaps in X 142-145, we'll see about placing NM2 4-6 there IF NEED BE.

There are two obvious gaps  between X #141 and #142, where Wolvie prepares for his mission, leaves the mansion (and his leaving implies that the lockdown is probably lifted), contacts and arranges to meet Fantomex, and tracks down Cyclops.  There's another gap between #142 and #143, where they travel to England, but since Scott mentions a hangover, it's probably not a long gap  twelve hours at most?

Anyway -- I'm not really suggsting placing NM2 #4-6 during GAPS in X #142-145, I'm suggesting placing them AT THE SAME TIME as X #142-145  one takes place at the mansion, and one takes place simulatenously at the Hellfire Club and in England.

> We'll see how long those three issues take, and how liberally we want to interpret the "few days" between X 138 (15) and X 139 (21-22).

Well, in-book evidence gives us a pretty strict gap of five days between Quentin's death on "Thursday" and Emma's murder the day before school was to close.  Of those five, the prizegiving and Jean's return occur on "Saturday", two days into the gap.

New Mutants v2 #1, by your account, occurs on a "Friday", which fits well at the beginning of this gap (the same day as Emma's shopping trip with Angel in X #138 p.15).  NM2 #2, occuring the day after NM2 #1, could occur between the daytime Prizegiving ceremony and Jean's explosive return to the mansion in the evening.

That gives NM2 #3-6 three days in this gap, and a possible two more days during X #142-145, to occur.  (And, really, at this point we're only assuming that NM2 #5-6 will have evidence, like Xavier walking, that places them before X #146.)

> Are you ready to sign off on the order of all these comics?

Mostly, yes.  I like what you've done, but as always, I'm afraid of future issues coming along and upsetting the applecart.  I'll give your lineup a tentative thumbs-up.

Two more things about creating a months-long gap in X #138, two more potential problems that I'll bring up and then explain away:

- on p.19, Emma says that "this last week has been hideous", referring presumably to Sophie's death and the Cuckoos leaving  all of which were now months ago.  My solution  well, she could have just had a bad week, for entirely different reasons.

- on p.17, Angel tells Beak that she's pregnant, and Beak claims in #140 that there's "a life cycle of, like, only five days between the sex and the birth," but that doesn't have to be a reference to their sexual encounter in X #136, now months ago  they could simply be having LOTS of sex.

> I do have a few questions now to help with calendar placement...

> (1) Can we place all XX entries starting with XX 20 (1-15) BETWEEN UX 431 and X 138 (10-14)?

Well, you yourself don't have them there on your current lineup  you have XX #20-23 occuring between UX #414-415, and XX #25-30 occuring after UX #431 (which really translates into, after UX #434, the end of the "Draco" arc).

Personally, I'd place XX #25-30 between UX #427 and #429, to match up better with their relative publication order.  It's fairly arbitrary either way, I suppose.

> (2) Can Quentin Quire spend several months catatonic at Xavier's before moving onto another plane of existence?

I don't see why not.

> (3) When the surviving Stepford Cuckoos tell Emma that they're leaving Xavier's after the prize-giving ceremony, can we interpret this to mean that they're leaving AFTER THE END OF THE SCHOOL YEAR, no matter how long that may be?

I think so, yes.

> How about it?

Let's give it a shot.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 14, 2003 at 21:28:45:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
posted by Jeph! on September 14, 2003 at 15:30:25:

> That gives NM2 #3-6 three days in this gap, and a possible two more days during X #142-145, to occur.  (And, really, at this point we're only assuming that NM2 #5-6 will have evidence, like Xavier walking, that places them before X #146.)

We'll have to wait and see, but I'll assign the first few issues of NM2 tentative dates.

> > Are you ready to sign off on the order of all these comics?

> Mostly, yes.  I like what you've done, but as always, I'm afraid of future issues coming along and upsetting the applecart.  I'll give your lineup a tentative thumbs-up.

Yes, those pesky writers do keep us on our toes with constant revision...

> Two more things about creating a months-long gap in X #138, two more potential problems that I'll bring up and then explain away:

> - on p.19, Emma says that "this last week has been hideous", referring presumably to Sophie's death and the Cuckoos leaving  all of which were now months ago.  My solution  well, she could have just had a bad week, for entirely different reasons.

Okay, I'll buy that.

> - on p.17, Angel tells Beak that she's pregnant, and Beak claims in #140 that there's "a life cycle of, like, only five days between the sex and the birth," but that doesn't have to be a reference to their sexual encounter in X #136, now months ago  they could simply be having LOTS of sex.

Absolutely right.  OR, Angel's pregnancy may have lasted months (secretly), given the gap we've placed between pages 9 and 10 of UX 138.  Certainly not a nine-month pregancy as a normal human's, but one that splits the difference between fly and human.

> > I do have a few questions now to help with calendar placement...

> > (1) Can we place all XX entries starting with XX 20 (1-15) BETWEEN UX 431 and X 138 (10-14)?

> Well, you yourself don't have them there on your current lineup  you have XX #20-23 occuring between UX #414-415, and XX #25-30 occuring after UX #431 (which really translates into, after UX #434, the end of the "Draco" arc).

Yes, I know.  I'm suggesting changing my own chronology to accommodate temporal references in XX.

> Personally, I'd place XX #25-30 between UX #427 and #429, to match up better with their relative publication order.  It's fairly arbitrary either way, I suppose.

I'm letting temporal references do some of the placing by putting all XX issues from 20 to the present in the gap.  We may want to double-check to make sure Storm's physical rehab with Logan works in this new placement, though.

> > (2) Can Quentin Quire spend several months catatonic at Xavier's before moving onto another plane of existence?

> I don't see why not.

Good, good...

> > (3) When the surviving Stepford Cuckoos tell Emma that they're leaving Xavier's after the prize-giving ceremony, can we interpret this to mean that they're leaving AFTER THE END OF THE SCHOOL YEAR, no matter how long that may be?

> I think so, yes.

Still good...

> > How about it?

> Let's give it a shot.

You got it.  I'll start on calendar placement and run it by the group again soon.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
Posted by Dimadick on September 12, 2003 at 11:13:01:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 11, 2003 at 22:08:33:

> Okay, my turn to chime in.  Jeph, I actually think X 146 has helped us straighten things out considerably, and may even allow me to place recent X issues in the late spring to conform to numerous temporal references.

> I'm not yet prepared to assign new calendar dates, though.  I thought I'd present the following list of X-entries without dates, just to see if their chronological order makes sense.

> I tried to strip out all previous, outdated notes, but I may have missed a few, so correct things if they don't look right.  And I didn't bother with W2 (and some XU) issues for now, opting to go with the team-oriented titles.

> Here goes...

Impressive work, Paul! It seems to have considered the activities of most characters involved. However there might be an exception.

> NEW X-MEN #142
> One night, probably within a couple of days after X 141, since it is unlikely that Xavier and Bishop would dawdle about trying to find Cyclops.  Wolverine (sans goatee, and probably wearing the new outfit with yellow stripes under his jacket) finds Scott at the Hellfire Club trying to get drunk.  Sabretooth is also there, and it appears that hes on his own reconnaissance, so this story must fit into a gap in his chronology sometime before his capture in WX2 3 (10-20).  Logan is also at the Hellfire Club to meet with Fantomex to begin a mission to take down the Weapon Plus program, and he tries to get Cyclops to join them.  The narration notes Emmas murder in X 139 (21-22) as having occurred last month, but it must be only days earlier.

This exception might be Sabretooth. You might want to wait for the conclusion of "The Underground" storyline to decide for Victor's status and activities. Following his capture in Weapon X #3, he was again forced to act as an agent. This time under the influence of Mesmero. In issue #9 he discovered that Mesmero's powers have waned. He apparently escaped between issues. By issue #10 he has again escaped Weapon X and Marrow is sent to find and retrieve him. In issue #11 he is revealed to be still hiding within the headquiarters of Weapon X. So Marrow is probably in a wild goose chase. If Victor indeeed manages to escape New X-Men #142 could be instead his first post-escape appearance.

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 13, 2003 at 16:21:28:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
posted by Dimadick on September 12, 2003 at 11:13:01:

Yes, I will probably make that argument, too -- especially if I'm able to place recent New X-Men issues in late spring, which would occur after the very cold morning shown in WX2 5 (22).

--Paul

			*	*	*

One thing
Posted by Jeph! on September 14, 2003 at 16:15:48:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 11, 2003 at 22:08:33:

> X-MEN UNLIMITED #45 (1-24p2)
> One day.  A jealous co-worker nearly slays Guardian, and during the ensuing battle, Heather Hudson gives birth to a girl  so it is less than nine months after BP3 43.  It is days before XU 45 (24).

Actually, Heather's pregnancy was first announced in W2 #173 -- so this issue must be less than nine months after THAT.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: One thing
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 14, 2003 at 21:09:59:
In Reply to: One thing
posted by Jeph! on September 14, 2003 at 16:15:48:

Indeed.  And Heather's pregnancy in W2 179 means that we cannot place that part of Logan's chronology into the gap we're proposing in X 139.  That gap occurs after Heather gives birth.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: get over it
Posted by Carl Mitchell on October 02, 2003 at 21:58:03:
In Reply to: X-Men: NXM #146 and a wholesale chronology overhaul
posted by Jeph! on September 11, 2003 at 02:32:26:

> Warning: this post contains spoilers for New X-Men #146.  If you don't want the shock ending to be ruined, please don't read any further.

Dude, this is fiction. these are two seperate books written by two seperate people with seperate agendas and disparate understandings of the histories of these characters and books. It's a waste of time stressing about x-men chronology as though you're an actual historian dealing with actual history. Try just enjoying the stories, and even better, accepting the terms of the individual writers. Grant Morrison has said that he hasn't read anything after Lobdell; start with that as your basis. There is no real, logical chronology. 

			*	*	*

Re: get over it
Posted by Administrator on October 02, 2003 at 22:15:42:
In Reply to: Re: get over it
posted by Carl Mitchell on October 02, 2003 at 21:58:03:

Then why are you here?

			*	*	*

Re: get over it
Posted by Jeph! on October 02, 2003 at 22:26:02:
In Reply to: Re: get over it
posted by Carl Mitchell on October 02, 2003 at 21:58:03:

> Dude, this is fiction ... There is no real, logical chronology.

Seems to me you've missed the entire concept of the MARVEL CHRONOLOGY PROJECT, haven't you?

Thanks for playing.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Beast
Posted by David Hall on September 13, 2003 at 20:01:06:

The Beast does not appear in Avengers Annual 18, though he is listed in the MCP.

			*	*	*

Magneto
Posted by David Hall on September 13, 2003 at 20:27:21:

Magneto does not appear in Avengers West Coast #59, though it is in his MCP listing.

			*	*	*

Captain America
Posted by RLG on September 14, 2003 at 08:44:59:

 Cap appears in all four (4) issues of X-Men vs Avengers.

CAPTAIN AMERICA
MEPHVS 4 ~ T 381
** XVSA 1
** XVSA 2
** XVSA 3
** XVSA 4
WCA@ 2

- RLG

			*	*	*

Comics on the 'net?
Posted by RLG on September 14, 2003 at 09:09:10:

  Does anyone know of a site(s) that have a library of back Marvel issues?  Not back issues for sale (ala Ebay), but a site where a person could type in, for example, WEREWOLF by NIGHT #25, and the pages (along with the cover) of that issue appear on screen. 

- RLG 

			*	*	*

Re: Comics on the 'net?
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 14, 2003 at 12:16:20:
In Reply to: Comics on the 'net?
posted by RLG on September 14, 2003 at 09:09:10:

If you mean a pay site, then no, there's no such thing.

If you mean for free, well, that would be illegal.

			*	*	*

Re: Comics on the 'net?
Posted by RLG on September 14, 2003 at 16:30:24:
In Reply to: Re: Comics on the 'net?
posted by Paul O'Brien on September 14, 2003 at 12:16:20:

Thanks for your reply Paul.  Actually I'm suprised that Marvel hasn't created a site like that, sort of a Marvel Vault, where for a nominal charge, you could peruse over old issues.

   On the subject of a free site, I surely would not a lawsuit on my hands because I downloaded the entire run of Nova, the Human Rocket (no offense Nova fans.)

   Anyway, I thought a site like that could also help with the MCP.

			*	*	*

Re: Comics on the 'net?
Posted by Administrator on September 14, 2003 at 17:01:57:
In Reply to: Re: Comics on the 'net?
posted by RLG on September 14, 2003 at 16:30:24:

From Comics Continuum:

Topics Entertainment later this month will release the Marvel Comic Book Library, featuring 100 comic books from the earliest issues of the publisher's characters. 

Featured on the CD-ROM are the first 10 issues each of Amazing Spider-Man, The Incredible Hulk, Daredevil, X-Men, Fantastic Four, Captain America, Avengers, Sub-Mariner, Iron Man and Silver Surfer. 

Also included are character biographies and movie screen savers. 

The CD-ROM is compatible for both the PC and Mac and will cost $29.99. 

			*	*	*

SNIPER...SNOWBIRD...SOLARR
Posted by Arthur Stein on September 14, 2003 at 09:14:23:

new entries marked ** 

SNIPER/VON BURIAN
**PWJ 4-FB
**PWJ 4
**PWJ 5
**PWJ 10-FB
**PWJ 10
PWJ 21

SNOWBIRD/NARYA/"ANNE MCKENZIE THOMPSON"
AF 44
**AF 45
**AF 64
**AF 67
**AF 92  (8p1-2, 10p2,10p4) (I never understood this appearance. How did she return? And where did she go? Why was she here?)
W2 143

SOLARR
aka SILAS KING  
DEF 42 (17p8)
DEF 42
**DEF 43
**DEF 44 (11p1)
**M/TIO 53 (19p2)
M/TIO 57

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#118

			*	*	*

SNOWBIRD
Posted by Jeph! on September 14, 2003 at 12:59:31:
In Reply to: SNIPER...SNOWBIRD...SOLARR
posted by Arthur Stein on September 14, 2003 at 09:14:23:

> SNOWBIRD/NARYA/"ANNE MCKENZIE THOMPSON"
> **AF 92  (8p1-2, 10p2,10p4) (I never understood this appearance. How did she return? And where did she go? Why was she here?)

That scene is a flashback, to the early days of Alpha Flight.  It's already on the MCP, which places it just before the team's first appearance in UX #120.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Marvel Comics Presents #21 correction
Posted by RLG on September 15, 2003 at 13:10:46:

  The various listing for the Avengers and the Fantastic Four should be corrected to reflect that they all appeared behind the scenes in the THIRD story of this issue.  In that story, both teams (off panel)come to Paladin's rescue as he confronts a group of unnamed aliens at the South Pole.

  Characters needing change:
(from M/CP 21 BTS to M/CP 21/3 BTS)
1) Captain America
2) Thor
3) Quasar
4) the Forgotten One (Gilgamesh)
5) Mr.Fantastic 
6) Invisible Woman
7) Thing
8) Human Torch
9) Ms.Marvel II (Sharon Ventura)

- RLG

			*	*	*

Silver Surfer: The Enslavers
Posted by RLG on September 15, 2003 at 14:37:27:

 Is this hard-covered Graphic Novel considered canon?  From first glance I see some big chrono problems; (Ex.-  the Thing and She-Hulk wearing FF costumes atop the Baxter Building with the gray-skinned Hulk.)

- RLG

			*	*	*

She-Hulk: Ceremony
Posted by RLG on September 15, 2003 at 14:53:21:

  I noticed that the Thing's appearance in issue #1 is listed his chronology, but in the She-Hulk's chronology, her appearances in issues #1 & 2 are not listed.

Unfortunatly, I can't help much more with this one, because I am unable to locate these issues in my collection.  However, I do seem to remember that the Human Torch and Wyatt Wingfoot made an appearance in at least one of the issues.  Like She-Hulk, their chronos do not reflect their appearance(s).

- RLG (who obviously has too much time on his hands today!)

			*	*	*

Re: She-Hulk: Ceremony
Posted by Andy Holcombe on September 21, 2003 at 22:46:14:
In Reply to: She-Hulk: Ceremony
posted by RLG on September 15, 2003 at 14:53:21:

>   I noticed that the Thing's appearance in issue #1 is listed his chronology, but in the She-Hulk's chronology, her appearances in issues #1 & 2 are not listed.

I asked about She-Hulk: Ceremony some time ago.  Here's the response:

>Re: She-Hulk
>Posted by Dr Bruce Banner on October 22, 2001 at 23:26:59:
>In Reply to: She-Hulk
>posted by Andy Holcombe on September 11, 2001 at 14:58:51:

> > I have been unable to find a listing for She-Hulk: Ceremony (which is listed in the key) under either She-Hulk or Wyatt Wingfoot.

>I think this one is a little hard to handle because of that friend of continuity John Byrne. Byrne decided that he didn't like how the Wingfoot issue was handled and in an issue of Sensational She-Hulk, She-Hulk floats it out there that Ceremony didn't really take place.

Take it for what it's worth as I haven't read any of either volume of She-Hulk's regular serieses as yet.

			*	*	*

Re: She-Hulk: Ceremony
Posted by RLG on September 22, 2003 at 08:25:01:
In Reply to: Re: She-Hulk: Ceremony
posted by Andy Holcombe on September 21, 2003 at 22:46:14:

Thanks for the response Andy.  If the "Byrne" explanation is accurate, then shouldn't the Thing's appearance and for that matter the WHOLE title be erased from the MCP?

- RLG

			*	*	*

Re: She-Hulk: Ceremony
Posted by Kevin  on October 04, 2003 at 10:31:09:
In Reply to: Re: She-Hulk: Ceremony
posted by RLG on September 22, 2003 at 08:25:01:

Hey, I just noticed this topic!  In She-Hulk Vol. 2, (Sensational She-hulk), Bryne creates rules for Jennifer, stuff like she can talk to the audience and to the writer, (she basically knows she's in a comic book) but this only applies to her when she's in her own title.  When she's in FF or Avengers, she loses this 'insight' power, (hey, it's Bryne doing a comedy book.  What can you expect?)

My point is, knowing that Bryne is no friend of continuity, (Spiderman: Chapter One, anyone?)...if John Bryne says in She-Hulk vol. 2, that the events of She-Hulk: Ceremony didn't take place...then can't we just rule since Vol. 2 has She-Hulk having powers that she doesn't have in the rest of Marvel Universe, that this ruling by Bryne doesn't apply to the rest of the Marvel Universe? Thus, making Ceremony still Canon, (in Continuity?)

			*	*	*

X-Men: The New Calendar
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 15, 2003 at 21:14:18:

Picking up where we last left the X-Men chronology overhaul --

We agreed on a basic chronological order for the X-team titles, with a possibility of moving XX 20- into a new gap we created between pages of X 138.  Now I've assigned tentative calendar dates to those entries (covering 9 1/2 months of MU time), and I've added issues from other X-related books to boot.

Time to run the new calendar up the flagpole to see if anyone salutes.  Some dates are more flexible than others and act more as guideposts.  Do the basic order and timing of these comics work?

(One more note about the gap -- it's a good spot to plant that Asgard-over-Manhattan storyline in T2.  After all, that storyline's tie-in to IM3 and A3 occurs after a Christmas-time story in IM3.)

Tuesday, August 20

X-TREME X-MEN X-POSE #1 (1-4)
One day, a few weeks after XX 18.  The executive producer of Spotlight assigns two sets of reporters to get dirt on the X-Treme X-Men.  It is a whole week before XX 1 (6-7).

Wednesday, August 21

CHAMBER #1 (1-12)
One day.  Chamber and Cyclops rescue a mutant boy and bring him to Xaviers.  They find out about mutant murders in a recent explosion at ESU, at which the fall sessions probably starting soon.  (This explosion is probably the one referenced in The Hood #1.)  Jono convinces Scott that he investigate the murders undercover as a newly enrolled student.

Thursday, August 22

X-FACTOR v2 #3
One day?  I dont have this issue, but according to a recap in XF2 4, there is a raid on the home of church-bombing, mutant-hater Kyle Nakamura, and the X-Men (including Jean Grey, Cyclops, and Beast) are present.  Details?

Friday, August 23

X-TREME X-MEN: X-POSE #1 (5)
One day.  Reporters visit X-Corp in Paris, presumably because Xavier and Worthington are there, although they do not appear the whole day, so we dont know if their information is accurate.  Probably shortly before X 128-130, as these reporters make no mention of the Chunnel incident, and the lobby (attacked by troops in X 129) is spotless.  Also, by X 131, five days from now, Archangel is back at the school.

X-FACTOR v2 #4 (2-4/5p5)
The day after XF2 3.  Aaron Kearse and Catherine Gray return to Washington DC from the raid on Nakamuras home.  The publication date of the new News Time magazine is hard to read, but may be August 25, 2002.

Saturday, August 24

X-FACTOR v2 #4 (4/5p6-13)
In the early morning hours of the day after XF2 4 (2-4/5), Kearse and Gray go to Kendall Greens home in Reston, VA and uncover a plot to bomb Xaviers School.  There is a reference to Sept. 11 here.

X-STATIX #2 (2-13)
One day, shortly after XS 2 (1).  Arnie Lundberg menaces his Minnesota town, where we see green grass and trees.  While on a mission with X-Statix, Venus Dee Milo explodes.

X-FACTOR v2 #4 (14-19p3)
On the night of XF2 4 (2-13), Kearse and Gray arrive at Xaviers by car from Reston, VA.  They try to stop the bomber as the X-Men are watching the Osbournes on TV.  If that program airs the same time in the MU as in the real world, and assuming theyre not watching a taped episode, then its Sunday night.  As related later, Phoenix disassembles the bomb telekinetically and knocks out the bomber.  Then, while Kearse is unconscious, Hank McCoy provides him with a more natural prothesis.

Sunday, August 25

X-FACTOR v2 #4 (BTS)
Several hours after XF2 4 (14-19), the X-Men release Kearse and Gray at a press conference at which Nightcrawler is a spokesperson.

X-STATIX #2 (14-22)
The night of the day after XS 2 (2-13).  Reference is made to Edie not being dead four months, but the reference may be to four weeks since XFO 128.  Guy and Venus have an unpleasant dinner in a restaurant, then Sharon Ginsburg serves X-Statix a court order forbidding Venus from being on the team.  O-Force prepares to battle Arnie Lundberg.

X-STATIX #3 (1-7)
The same night as XS 2.  Sharon threatens to take X-Statix to court over Venus, Anarchist and Dead Girl leave to go on tour, and Vivisector has troubles.

Monday, August 26

X-STATIX #3 (8-16)
The day after XS 3 (1-7).  Phat spends time at home, where we see green grass and trees and warm, outdoor grilling weather.  Orphan tries to talk O-Force out of their mission against Arnie Lundberg, who blows up his school, liberating the kids from the classroom.  This may be the first day of school for a new year in Arnies Minnesota town, where we see green grass and trees.  Orphan then checks out what must be the first performance of the Tike Alicar and Dead Girl Road Show.

NEW X-MEN #128
One night, most likely after XX 19.  Paris is rebuilt, placing this story sometime after UX 408.  Xavier and Jean are in Paris while on their first worldwide trip for X-Corp.

NEW X-MEN #129
The same night as X 128.

NEW X-MEN #130
The same night as X 129.  Darkstar dies.  This issue is referred to as having occurred yesterday in XX 24 (1-6).

Tuesday, August 27

X-TREME X-MEN #24 (1-6)
The day after X 130.  Cannonball assists with rescue and salvage efforts in the Chunnel and stays after the X-Men leave.

X-TREME X-MEN: X-POSE #1 (6-7)
One day, a whole week after XXX 1 (1-4).  The incident in the Channel Tunnel is mentioned, so this segment must occur after X 130.  Conan and Wetherell get a tip to go to New Orleans.  At around 1:30 PM, according to the camera in XXX 2-FB (2-3), other reporters visit Emma Frost at Xaviers, where we see green foliage and warm weather; they are dumped in the lake.

X-TREME X-MEN: X-POSE #2FB (2-3)
The same day as XXX 1 (5-7).  The dunked reporters retreat from Xaviers amid taunts from the students there.  Time-code on the camera footage reads 13:34.27.03, which may be a reference to it being 1:34 PM.

X-STATIX #3 (17-22)
The day after XS 3 (8-16).  O-Force goes up against 13-year-old Arnie Lunt and his resurrected corpses, and as things look bad, Orphan arrives.

X-STATIX #4 (1-18)
The same night as XS 3 (17-22).  X-Statix show up to help Orphan battle Arnie Lundberg.  Green grass and trees in Minnesota.

Wednesday, August 28

X-STATIX #4 (19-22)
The morning after XS 4 (1-18).  X-Statix is a team again, and Orphan introduces their newest member, Arnie Lundberg.

X-STATIX #5 (1)
The same morning as XS 4 (19-22).  X-Statix discusses Arnie in the john.

X-STATIX #5 (6)
The same morning as XS 5 (1).  More john talk about Arnie.

X-STATIX #5 (2-5)
The same morning as XS 5 (6).  Mysterious Fan Boy (an anonymous Arnie Lunt) is publicly presented as the newest member of X-Statix.  Green trees in California.

X-STATIX #5 (7-8)
The same morning as XS 6 (2-5).  As X-Statix have lunch, Lacuna drops by, curious about Mysterious Fan Boys identity.

X-TREME X-MEN: X-POSE #1 (8-13)
Probably the day after XXX 1 (6-7), given that the reporters clothes are different and Logan says that its morning.  Conan and Wetherell visit Ororo and Logan in New Orleans, where the two X-Men have been since XX 19.  Manoli still has an appointment with Val Cooper today, so its unlikely that they traveled directly out to California from here.  Ororo is still wheelchair-bound, but she manages to stand and try to fly, despite the fact that she cant yet walk.  Some time should pass between this point and the point at which Logan leaves Ororo for Madripoor (before X 131) and Storm goes to Genosha (three days before X 132)  obviously it would take a while for Storm to get from the point shes at here to the apparent fitness (which we see in  X 132) that makes it easier for Logan to leave her. 

X-STATIX #5 (9-10p1)
The same day as XS 5 (7-8).  Lacuna uses her power to unmask Arnie.

CHAMBER #1 (13-23)
One day, one week after Chamber 1 (1-12).  Jono is enrolled at ESU at the beginning of the fall semester.  Green grass and trees.  It must be a Wednesday.  Full moon.

Thursday, August 29

CHAMBER #2
The day after CHAMBER 1 (13-23).  A rainy Thursday.

X-STATIX #5 (10p2-13)
The day after XS 5 (9-10).  X-Statix watch the media coverage of Arnies unmasking and decide to let him prove himself on a mission.  Orphan gets Lacuna to agree to deal with the situation.  Razorhead escapes from prison.

WOLVERINE v2 #183/2
Using the passage of time the books give us, Storm leaves for Genosha on this date, three days before X 132.  Therefore, one can assume Logan left for Madripoor on the same date. Its odd, given that Ororo is portrayed as unwell in XXX 1 (8-13) and walking in X 132, but it is consistent with all her other appearances showing her to be healing but impatient, and constantly overexerting herself (walking, trying to fly, etc.).  In any event, we need a rationale for Logan to travel to the Madripoor area of the world. Having him hear of the whereabouts of Lady Deathstrike, whom hed vowed to find and kill for what she did in W2 173-176, seemed like a good impetus.  He could have then traveled to Madripoor the next day or later that same day.

Friday, August 30

X-TREME X-MEN #24 (15-16)
The day after XX 24 (1-14).  Cannonball finishes his work at the Chunnel and leaves the scene.  Given the time-references between Storm appearing in New Orleans in XXX 1 (8-13) and three days later in Genosha in X  132, this sequence must be two days after XX 24 (7-14).

X-STATIX #5 (14-17)
The day after XS 5 (10-13).  X-Statix battles Razorhead, who is killed by Arnie.  Arnie is killed by Lacuna under orders from Orphan.

CHAMBER #3
The day after CHAMBER 2.  Green grass and trees and some falling leaves.  It is a Friday with a full moon.

Saturday, August 31

NEW X-MEN #131 (1)
One morning, probably a few days after X 130.  Scott and Emma are flying in an X-jet.

NEW X-MEN #131 (2/3) ~ X-TREME X-MEN #24 (17p1-17p3)
The same morning as X 131 (1) and the morning after XX 24 (15-16), so it is four days after X 130.  The X-Men attend Darkstars funeral in a rainy Paris.

X-TREME X-MEN #24 (17p4-18p2)
The same morning as XX 24 (17p1-17p3).  After the funeral, Cannonball quits X-Corp and Xavier gives him a playbill for a gig by Lila Cheney in Paris that night.

NEW X-MEN #131 (4-21)
The same day as X 131 (2/3).  Since Archangel (who is back at Xaviers now) is still blue here, this issue must occur before UX 410.  Logan has most recently been in Madripoor, according to Cyclops (and he's likely being dropped off in Afghanistan here).  It's the first time Scott and Jean have been together for weeks  since X 127.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

X-TREME X-MEN #24 (18p3-19)
The same night as XX 24 (17-18).  Cannonball reconnects with Lila Cheney and they teleport off Earth for some R&R.  It is months before XX 24 (20-21).

Sunday, September 1

NEW X-MEN #132
Probably the day after X 131.  A group of X-Men are on their way from the Paris funeral of Darkstar to India when the stop in Genosha, where Storm has been for three days (thus missing the funeral), so it is more than three days since XX 1 (8-13).  Storm appears to have recovered, or so she may deceive herself into believing  and with Logan having left her for an important reason (Vatican or Madripoor), she has decided to go off to Genosha,  A comment by Sabra about this being the worst weekend of her life suggests that X 131 occurs on Saturday and this issue on a Sunday.  Polaris returns.  According to the introductory notes in X 133, it is one year after the destruction of Genosha in X 115, but that length of time may be too long  six months may be more appropriate; this is corroborated by the narration in UX 424, which occurs several months after X 115.

Monday, September 2

NEW X-MEN #133
Probably the day after X 132, as the X-Men arrive in India via commercial aircraft.  Wolverine travels separately from Afghanistan to meet them there.  Both Logan and Sunfire appear here, and it is likely this is before their encounter in XU 39/2.  Given that Logan recently left Storm in poor health, and theyre both in the same general area of the world, it makes sense that hed offer to meet her in Japan around now to use that countrys spas and check up on her (see XU 39/2).  Jean is seen flying to Mumbai with Professor Xavier when they prevent the hijacking of their plane.  Jean saves Xavier from an assassination attempt by Lilandra. Charles leaves to meet the Shiar and Jean inspects the X-Corporation Mumbai.  There she meets and apparently takes Dust under her protection, but Dust may have remained at X-Corp Mumbai for a time after this.  Full moon.

Tuesday, September 3

X-STATIX #5 (18-22)
One day, probably a few days after XS 5 (14-17), as we see Arnies funeral here.  Orphan and Lacuna argue on the beach and Orphan quits X-Statix.  Green trees in California.

Thursday, September 5

WOLVERINE v2 #177
WOLVERINE v2 #178
These two issues occur one day.  Logan is embroiled in battle with evil Catholics in New York City.  He travels to the Vatican and ultimately fails to save his friends life.

Monday, September 9

WOLVERINE v2 #179
One day.  Shaman summons Wolverine from Westchester (where we see green grass and trees) to Canada to battle a demon who has taken over Alpha Flights headquarters and possessed Sasquatch, Puck, and Snowbird.  Shaman mentions that Heather and Mac are occupied with the joyousness of Heathers pregnancy.  Logan defeats the demon and frees Alpha Flight.  Shaman tells Logan that the demon wanted his protege, Chuck Moss, who Shaman asks Logan to train.

Tuesday, September 10

WOLVERINE v2 #180 (1-19)
The day after W2 179.  Logan trains Chuck Moss in British Columbia, where we see green grass and trees.  Full moon.

Wednesday, September 11

WOLVERINE v2 #180 (20-23)
The morning after W2 180 (1-19).  Chuck Moss passes his training and Logan gives him his totem, a worm, and calls him an Earthmover.  This segment must occur sometime before XU 45 (1-24).

Saturday, September 14

WOLVERINE: NETSUKE #1
WOLVERINE: NETSUKE #2
WOLVERINE: NETSUKE #3
WOLVERINE: NETSUKE #4
The series occurs on one night?  Wolverine follows his dreams of Marikos spirit to a set of four carved figurines.  This series must be placed before Wolverine is ordered out of Japan in XU 39/2.

Wednesday, September 18

X-MEN UNLIMITED #39/2
One day.  Storm and Logan rendezvous in Japan (where we see green grass and trees), but are ordered out by Sunfire, who likely appears here after X 133, given that he and Logan dont seem to be at odds with each other then.  Sunfire, citing new laws against mutants, gives them 24 hours to leave.  If Logan observes this ban, then this story occurs after XU 50.  The costume Storm wears here is never seen again.  She can fly and maneuver quite well, but just like in X 132, she seems to need her cape to catch the winds.

Tuesday, September 24

UNCANNY X-MEN #410
UNCANNY X-MEN #411
UNCANNY X-MEN #412
UNCANNY X-MEN #413
UX 410-413 occur during the course of a day, a year after XF 149 and a few weeks before UX 417 (8-22).  Since this story ends with Archangel losing his blue skin color, it must occur after X 131, and the reference to calling Lorna would place it after X 132.  Warren also breaks his arm and leg in this story.  Xavier, Jean, and Logan are here, back from their travels  Xavier is in Canada, inviting Sammy Pare to the school, Jean is at home with Scott, and Logan is on a mission to Cassidy Keep.  Chamber has gone off to college, so this occurs between Chamber 1 and 4.  Its discovered that Havok is still alive.  Husk is now working and living at the school.  Annie arrives at Xaviers with Carter, presumably invited by Cyclops, and gets pulled into being a triage nurse for the wounded X-Men.  Green grass and trees in Vancouver and upstate New York.  Jackets in Vancouver and warm weather at Xaviers.

Friday, September 27

X-TREME X-MEN: X-POSE #1 (14-23)
One day, perhaps a month after XXX 1 (8-13), during which time reporters have been gathering intel on the X-Men.  The executive producer of Spotlight is now working on a rough cut of the expose.  Conan and Manoli interview Bishop and Sage in Valle Soleada (outside Los Angeles), a meeting set up by Storm.

X-TREME X-MEN: X-POSE #2 (1-18)
Probably the evening of  XXX 1 (14-23).  Conan and Wetherell are still in Valle Soleada, talking to the same cop they rescued in XXX 1.  By huge coincidence, they run into Gambit and Rogue in the same town as Bishop and Sage.  Gambit and Rogue have been on the road for weeks following XX 19.  It is about a week before XXX 2 (19-22).

Tuesday, October 1

UNCANNY X-MEN #414
One day, months after X 113.  Stacy X refers to UX 412 as having occurred the other day, but shes always practiced lazy language  clues in UX 415 tell us its been more than a week since UX 413.  Archangel is still in a cast.  Northstar accepts a teaching position at Xaviers, but is injured in an explosion that puts him in the infirmary.  If we wish to use XS 6-8 as the reason for Xaviers absence in UX 415, then we have to allow enough time between UX 414 and 415 for XS 6-8 to occur.  Green grass and trees in Ontario.

Friday, October 4 

X-TREME X-MEN: X-POSE #2 (19-22)
One evening,about a week after XXX 2 (1-18).  Warren has white skin and no casts, so this segment must occur after UX 414.  It may occur shortly before Iceman discovers that Warren is out of his casts in UX 415.  Warren also sports cropped hair and a goatee, which he would had to have grown in the few days since UX 414.  The snow falling in Manhattan starts when Ororo confronts Warren, so it may be a subconscious manifestation of her mood.  Warren gives her a speech about the X-Men needing to portray a united front, with which Ororo disagrees.  Storm appears recovered here, but I theorize that she collapses right after this scene, and Logan realizes that they were kidding themselves into believing she was okay; he returns her to New Orleans for more rehabilitation.  The TV Guide on page 1 is for June, but a newspaper reads Friday, October something.

Saturday, October 5

UNCANNY X-MEN #415
One day, weeks after UX 413, although this reference is inconsistent with the one in UX 414 that UX 412 was the other day, given that UX 414 is referred to here as having occurred the other day.  It is a few days before UX 416.  Archangel is out of his casts, which surprises Iceman as its too soon for Warren to be healed.  Warrens goatee does not appear here; he may have shaved it since XXX 2 (19-22).  Northstar is in the infirmary.  Wolverine is not here, perhaps because hes tending to Storm in New Orleans. Green grass and trees at Westchester.  Full moon.

Wednesday, October 9

UNCANNY X-MEN #416
One day, a few days after UX 415.  Sammy hasnt been assigned a room at Xaviers yet and Xavier still hasnt given him an orientation, presumably because everyones so busy, even though its been weeks since he came on board in UX 410.  Sammy hasnt made friends yet, but he and Juggernaut start to bond.  Given his awe of X-Men, Glob Hermans appearance here probably predates his joining the Omega Gang in X 135.  Stacy X is released from the infirmary while Northstar is still recuperating.  Lorna has been called about Alex and is expected to arrive at Xaviers in the morning (it is not known where she has been since hooking back up with the X-Men in X 132).  We see green grass and trees at Westchester.  It is cool enough for jackets and trench coats.

UNCANNY X-MEN #417 (1-7)
It must be the same night as UX 416.  As Warren sleeps, dreaming of Psylocke, Paige makes a discovery on the internet about one of Warrens businesses.

Thursday, October 10

UNCANNY X-MEN #417 (8-22)
The day after UX 417 (1-7).  It is a few weeks after UX 410-413.  The weather is nice enough for a game of catch.  Husk is dwelling on her past relationship with Chamber; this suggests that this issue must occur before Jonathons return to Xaviers at the end of Chamber #4.  Wolverine is with the group in New York (suggesting that he and Ororo have separated, at least temporarily ).  He has the goatee seen in XX 21, and he gets slashed up by Maximus Lobo.

UNCANNY X-MEN #418
The same day as the UX 417 (8-22).  Lorna arrives at Xaviers, so it must be the day after UX 416.  Archangel and Husk try to take on Maximus Lobo.  Green trees in Westchester County.

UNCANNY X-MEN #419
The same day as UX 418.  Archangel and Husk have a respite from Maximus Lobos attack while Havok awakens at Xaviers and Nightcrawler questions God.  Green grass and trees in New York.

UNCANNY X-MEN #420
The same day as UX 419.  Warren discovers that his blood has healing powers as the X-Men defeat Maximus Lobo and his Dominant Species werewolves.  Given Warrens discovery, this story must occur before XU 45 (24).  Green grass and trees in New York.

Friday, October 11

UNCANNY X-MEN #421 (1-21p1)
Probably the day after UX 420.  Scott and Jean are here, on friendly terms.  Juggernaut asks to stay with the X-Men.  Professor X fills Havok in on what he missed during his coma, then Polaris proposes to Havok and they plan to leave on an archaeological dig.  Nightcrawler decides to join them.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

Saturday, October 12

X-MEN UNLIMITED #44
One hot day, with green grass and trees in Westchester.  Given the relationship that has grown between Sammy and Juggernaut, this story likely occurs after UX 421 (1-21) and before Sammys departure in UX 422.  Jean is at Xaviers in this story, and she meets Sammy for the first time, so it cant be very long after UX 410.  Kurt appears here, but he doesnt appear to be in a position of leadership, which is consistent with his status between UX 421 (1-21) and UX 421 (21-22).  Logan is here without a goatee; apparently hes shaved the goatee he sported in XX 21 and UX 417-420.  Juggernaut learns a lesson as the X-Men deal with some local boys who torture animals.  There appears to be no school today, so it is likely a weekend day if this occurs during the school season (although there are apparently Sunday classes, as in X 135).

Sunday, October 13

X-MEN UNLIMITED #45 (1-24p2)
One day.  A jealous co-worker nearly slays Guardian, and during the ensuing battle, Heather Hudson gives birth to a girl  so it is less than nine months after BP3 43.  It is days before XU 45 (24).  Earthmover, who must appear here after W2 180 (21-23), wants to go to a Canadiens game, so it must be after the pre-season begins in late September.  Green grass and trees in Canada.

Wednesday, October 16

X-MEN UNLIMITED #45 (24p3-24p7)
One day, days after XU 45 (1-24).  Archangel has used his new healing power to save Guardian, so this segment must occur between UX 420 and UX 421 (23-24).  Jean and Logan (sans goatee) are here too.  The three X-Men may have been summoned the day of Macs near death in XU 45 (1-24) and have remained with Alpha Flight until Angels healing allowed Mac to regain consciousness in this segment.

Thursday, October 17

CHAMBER #4
Chamber returns to Xaviers from ESU.  This segment must occur after UX 421 (1-21), given that Paige was brooding about the absent Chamber in UX 417.  This segment must occur shortly before UX 422, Chambers next appearance at Xaviers, where its clear that he and Paige have not had much opportunity to clear the air.  Things at Xaviers appear to be calm, so this segment may well occur before X 134 (3-22).  I dont have this issue, so does anyone have details?

NEW X-MEN #134 (1-2)
One rainy night.  Mutant designer Jumbo Carnation dies in Alphabet City.  This event is noted as having occurred the other night in X 135 (1-14).

Friday, October 18

NEW X-MEN #134 (3-22)
The day after X 134 (1-2).  Logan is not at Xaviers.  Reference is made to Jean being in Hong Kong and expected home soon after being away for a while; however, it seems Jean may run into unexpected delays, as she doesnt make it back home until X 138 (16-23).  We see green grass and autumn leaves in Westchester and there is a reference that is made to it being late summer.

Sunday, October 20

NEW X-MEN #135 (1-14)
A school day at Xaviers.  Xavier notes that he is opening the doors to the Institute to non-mutants in three days time.  Since X 138 labels Open Day a Wednesday, this then must be a Sunday; X 121 establishes that Xaviers doesnt hold to traditional human school practices, so there may very well be Sunday classes.  Quentin Quire has changed considerably in recent weeks.  Quire refers to the murder of Jumbo Carnation in X 134 (1-2) as having occurred the other night.  Glob Herman probably appears here after UX 416.  We see green grass and trees in Westchester and its seasonable enough for Xorns Special Class (which is convening for the first time) to go camping.  Because of its special nature, Xorns class may not follow the traditional semester.  High on kick, Quentin Quire and his Omega Gang assault a group of mutant-hating youths.

Monday, October 21

NEW X-MEN #135 (15-22)
The day after X 135 (1-14).  Xavier discusses the Quire situation telepathically with his X-Men, including Jean, who is still in Hong Kong, and Logan, who isnt necessarily at Xaviers.  Xorn continues the camping trip with the Special Class.  Green grass and trees.

Tuesday, October 22

NEW X-MEN #136 (1-21)
The night of the day after X 135 (15-22).  The Omega Gang attacks a group of U-Men, and a squad of U-Men attacks the Special Class, who are still on the camping trip.  Beak and Angel have sex, apparently for the first time, given the dialog.  Xorn defeats the U-Men and the class is taken back to Xaviers school, where the Omega Gang capture Xavier.  It is before a Friday.  Green grass and trees.

Wednesday, October 23

NEW X-MEN #136 (22)
The morning after X 136 (1-21).  It is Open Day at Xaviers, the day that Xavier has invited non-mutants to tour the school for possible enrollment, perhaps for the semester following this.  The Omega Gang begin their attack on the school.  According to XX 24, this issue occurs after XX 23.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.

NEW X-MEN #137
The same day as X 136 (22).  Wolverine is back at Xaviers, sporting a goatee once more.  The X-Men battle the Omega Gang.  In the end, Quentin Quire is defeated and Sophie of the Stepford Cuckoos is killed.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.

NEW X-MEN #138 (1-6)
The same day as X 137.  The X-Men deal with the aftermath of the Omega Gangs riot on a Wednesday.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.

Thursday, October 24

NEW X-MEN #138 (7-9)
It is a Tuesday, presumably six days after X 138 (1-6), but Emma mentions that Sophie died yesterday, making this segment the day after X 137, a Thursday.  The remaining Stepford Cuckoos announce that they will depart Xaviers after the upcoming prize-giving ceremony and walk out on Emma; this notice may be months in advance  the Cuckoos may intend to stick it out for the rest of the school year, then transfer to an exclusive school that may not have openings until the summer.  Emma notes that she is twenty-seven; this would make her a teenager at the time of her debut in UX 129.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.

Friday, October 25

UNCANNY X-MEN #421 (21p2-23p6)
One day.  Havok and Polaris leave with Nightcrawler for Bermuda.  Cyclops is among those who see them off, but Jean is not.  Scott tells Alex that Alex just got back from his coma, so the time between UX 419 and this segment must be fairly short.  It is two days before UX 421 (23-24).  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

Sunday, October 27

UNCANNY X-MEN #422  FB
One day.  Stacy X makes a risque video for Warren before leaving Xaviers.

UNCANNY X-MEN #421 (23p7-24)
robably the same night as UX 422-FB.  2 nights after UX 421 (21-23), Alpha Flight barges into Xaviers school to take the children.  Heather Hudson is no longer pregnant and James Hudson is healed, so this segment must occur after XU 45 (24)  and apparently the Hudsons gratefulness for Warren saving James has waned.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.

UNCANNY X-MEN #422
The same night as UX 421 (23-24).  Nightcrawler, Havok, and Polaris discover an ancient mutant city on an archaeological dig and encounter the Church of Humanity.  Warren watches Stacys video.  Chamber appears here at Xaviers shortly after his return in Chamber #4.  Alpha Flight have come to retrieve the children at Xaviers school in the wake of the recent riot of X 135-137.  The X-Men battle Alpha Flight and only Squidboy ends up leaving Xaviers in the end.  A conversation between Juggernaut and Squidboy leads one to assume that Emma is alive, so this issue must occur before X 139 (21-22).  It is a few weeks before UX 423 and 429, but also presumably a few months before UX 424  only one can be correct, probably the former.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.  Full moon.

Monday, October 28

X-STATIX #6 (1-8)
One day.  Orphan has been missing for a while, since XS 5 (18-22).  Professor X helps Venus Dee Milo with her powers while the rest of the team appear on Lacunas show.  It is long enough before XS 6 (9-15) for profits at X-Statix cafes to be tallied as having declined two percent.

Friday, November 1

X-STATIX #6 (9-15)
One day, long enough after the Lacuna Good Guy/Bad Guy broadcast in XS 6 (1-8) for it to be noted that takings at X-Statix cafes have declined two percent.  Spike Freeman notes that X-Statix will have to kill the missing Orphan. Meanwhile, Professor X deals with the theft of some costumes and then the thief, appearing as Bad Guy, trashes Lacunas studio.

Saturday, November 2

X-STATIX #6 (16-22)
The day after XS 6 (9-15).  X-Statix battle Bad Guy.

X-STATIX #7 (1-8)
The same day as XS 6 (16-22).  Bad Guy retreats from the battle and Venus publicly discloses being a virgin.  Orphan comes to Professor X for a new suit.

Sunday, November 3

X-STATIX #7 (9-22)
The day after XS 7 (1-8).  Bad Guy injures Sharon Ginsberg then faces X-Statix.  Green grass and trees.

X-STATIX #8 (1-6)
The same day as XS 7 (9-22).  Bad Guy appears as Venus cousin Jamal and Professor X helps Venus and Orphan make sense of the creature.

Monday, November 4

X-STATIX #8 (7-11)
Probably the day after XS 8 (1-6).  Orphan is back with X-Statix and Anarchist becomes team leader.

Monday, November 5

X-STATIX #8 (12-22)
The day after XS 8 (7-11).  X-Statix fight and defeat Bad Guy.  Solomon delivers a dying Sharon Ginsberg to X-Statix.  Venus takes Orphan to the dimension where she teleported her family.

MYSTIQUE #1 (1-8)
One night.  It must be a weeknight, as Charles Xavier appears on Nightline.  Jean is at Xaviers.  We learn that Xavier has covert operatives in the world and that one has been killed on a mission.

Tuesday, November 6

MYSTIQUE #1 (9-23)
The early morning after MYS 1 (1-8).  At 2:54 AM, Xavier arrives at Forges apartment in Baltimore to ask him to find Mystique.  From the dialogue, it appears that Xavier and Forge have been out-of-touch for quite a while, an indication that this segment occurs before UX 425 (5-17).  At 3:12 AM, Mystique is on a mission in Washington DC.

MYSTIQUE #2
The same early morning as MYS 1 (9-23).  At 3:27 AM, Forge discovers the whereabouts of Mystique, who is captured by government agents at 3:29 AM.  At 4:36 AM, the captive Mystique awakens in a DHS flying justice unit, where she faces Johnny Kitano, a mutant whose mission is to eliminate mutant threats to the government.  Mystique is rescued by Xavier, who is disguised as Magneto.  Full moon.

MYSTIQUE #3
The same day as MYS 2.  Xavier and Forge send Mystique to Cuba on a clandestine mission to destroy two mutant-killing robots. Once there, she meets her handler, Shortpack.  Green vegetation in New York.

MYSTIQUE #4
The same day as MYS 3.  Mystique insinuates her way to Luis Diosvil, the man who purchased the Sentinels and is conducting experiments on Cuban mutants.  She assumes his identity, only to face a band of freedom fighters.

MYSTIQUE #5
The same night as MYS 4.  Mystique sides with the freedom fighters and battles Disovils soldiers.  She finds the kidnapped children, only to learn that she must kill little Evangelina Rivera to stop the Sentinels.

MYSTIQUE #6
The same night as MYS 5.

X-STATIX #9 (1-15)
Probably the day after XS 8 (12-22).  X-Statix finishes a mission in Africa, then watch the dailies of X-Statix: The Movie in California.  Sharon Ginsberg awakens in a hospital to find her wings removed and goes berserk.

Wednesday, November 7

X-STATIX #9 (16-22)
The day after XS 9 (1-15).  X-Statix defeat Sharon Ginsberg at the movie studio then report to the press on their African adventure.

Saturday, November 9

X-STATIX #10
One day, sometime before W/D 1.  While helping Orphan clean out Edie Sawyers room, Venus Dee Milo reads Edies diary.  It is months after Edies death in XFO 128.

Monday, November 11

X-MEN UNLIMITED #48/1 (1-12)
One day.  At the urgent request of Dr. MacKenzie, Logan arrives in the Savage Land to track a raptor  suspected of adversely affecting the eco-system there.  Logan is teamed with Shanna, who he meets for the first time, and he discovers the real cause of the threat.  Ka-Zar is off in New York after a fight he had with Shanna.

Tuesday, November 12

X-MEN UNLIMITED #48/1 (13-14)
The day (24 hours) after XU 48/1 (1-12).  Having saved Dr. MacKenzie and Shanna and seeing them back to health, Logan departs the Savage Land.

Wednesday, November 13

X-MEN UNLIMITED #49 (1-13)
One night.  Cyclops and Nightcrawler show up in New Mexico to save a girl trapped in a cave-in.  Kurt discovers that shes been kidnaped by a subterranian race and is taken down by one of their darts.

Thursday, November 14

X-MEN UNLIMITED #49 (14-25)
The day after XU 49 (1-13).  A few hours later, Kurt awakens and is told he must fight a subterranian leader, but he teleports the kidnaped girl to safety instead.  Later, he and a student at Xaviers watch his taped TV news interview at the Xavier Institute, where we see green grass and trees.

Sunday, November 17

UNCANNY X-MEN #423
One day, a few weeks after UX 422.  Nightcrawler, Havok, Polaris, Cyclops, and Jean (apparently back from Hong Kong) are all at Xaviers.  Logans goatee is gone and he has a new outfit, black with yellow tiger stripes.  The Church of Humanity leaves a calling card in front of Xaviers  a bunch of crucified mutants, including Jubilee, Skin, Jesse Bedlam, and Magma, shortly before NM2 3 (1-19); I suggest a Sunday as a symbolic day to do this.  Archangels healing powers save some of them, but Angelo dies.  Xorn and Xavier cannot be reached; Xavier probably has left the school as he intended to do.  After Cyclops chews out Kurt for not briefing the team about the Church, they discover that someones been messing with Kurt through his presumed life as a priest.  That night, they find slaughtered mutants beneath St. Michaels Church.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

UNCANNY X-MEN #424 (1-5p1)
The same night as UX 423.  At St. Michaels church, the X-Men discover the plot of the Church of Humanity and decide to head to Montana to fight it.  It is several months after the destruction of Genosha in X 115.

Monday, November 18

UNCANNY X-MEN #424 (5p2-24p2)
The day after UX 424 (1-5).  It is presumably a few months after UX 422, but this cant be correct, given that UX 423 is only a few weeks after UX 422.   The X-Men attack the Church of Humanity compound in Montana, where we see green grass.  The X-Men prevail.

Thursday, November 21

UNCANNY X-MEN #424 (24p3-24p8)
One day, days after UX 424 (5-24).  Nightcrawler thinks about the Church of Humanitys pope and reflects on his own abiding faith.  We see green trees and a butterfly at Xaviers.

UNCANNY X-MEN #425 (1-4)
One night.  Havok has a romantic dream about Annie.

Friday, November 22

UNCANNY X-MEN #425 (5-17p1)
The day after UX 425 (1-4).  Iceman refers to having turned to solid ice the other day.  At Alexs bachelor party, Alex comes to grips with his feelings for Annie.  Forge is there, probably after MYS 1-6.  At Lornas bachelorette party, Lorna ends up with a stripper dressed like Gambit, while Iceman hooks up with Annie.  Xavier is still nowhere to be seen.  Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch appear at the parties (and at the wedding).  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

Saturday, November 23

UNCANNY X-MEN #425 (17p2-23)
The day after UX 425 (5-16).  Realizing his true feelings, Alex calls a halt to the wedding ceremony.  Professor X is among the attendees, as is Forge, so this segment likely occurs after MYS 2; perhaps Xavier and Forge traveled together from DC to New York to attend the wedding.  It also appears that Soldier X and Domino are here, probably sometime between SX 7 and WX2 6 (18-23).  Rogue and Gambit are here, but the X-Treme team doesnt seem to be, and neither does Chamber.  Magma cannot be one of those present, as she is in a coma.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers, where it is warm enough for an outdoor wedding; in fact, Alex remarks that its hot today, but given the circumstances, it may just be him.  However, the hot comment would make sense if an unusual warm spell hit the U.S., causing the same heat shown in H3 38.   My placement of the wedding here means that Alexs and Lornas engagement lasted five weeks.

UNCANNY X-MEN #426
The same day as UX 425 (17-23).  According to the narrative summary, it s a few months after UX 419, but it may only be about a month and a half.  Havok refers to UX 424 (5-24) as having occurred recently.  He also notes that the last few weeks have been so chaotic.  The scorned Polaris attempts to kill Havok and Annie, but shes taken out by Juggernaut.  Havok and Annie discover that theyve had a relationship, thanks to the mutant power of Annies son Carter.  Alex and Annie jet to Paris for a day to turn their fantasy relationship to reality.  This issue must occur before EXILES 28.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

Sunday, November 24

EXILES #28
Probably the day after UX 426, since Annie tells Paige about her and Alexs time in Paris the previous night.  Wolf-kid Nicholas Gleason cuts Havok open and good Alex is replaced by a bad Alex, who attacks the mutants at Xaviers.  The Exiles teleport in to stop bad Alex and the Dominant Species werewolves show up.  Warren admits his love for Paige and discovers that his uncle is responsible for the shenanigans at Lobo Tech.  Wolverine has no goatee and is wearing is tiger-stripe costume.  We see green grass and trees and blowing leaves and Xaviers.  It is warm enough outdoors for short sleeves, so we may be seeing the same warm spell shown in UX 426 and H3 38.

EXILES #29
The same day as EXILES 28.  The Exiles and the X-Men battle both the bad Alex and the Dominant Species werewolves.  Kurt notes that the X-Mens jets are all out, that they wrecked a few lately, and that Cyclops group has something big going.  Green grass and trees in New York.

EXILES #30 (1-21)
The same day as EXILES 29.  The Exiles and X-Men defeat the werewolves.   Nocturne sends bad Alex to the empty void whence he came and good Alex returns.  The Tallus gives the Exiles four days to stay with the X-Men, until EXILES 30 (22-23).  During that four days, no other X-adventures are likely to occur.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.

Thursday, November 28: Thanksgiving

EXILES #30 (22-23)
One day, four days after EXILES 30 (1-21).  The Exiles say their goodbyes to the X-Men, and Warren keeps Illyanas sword.  Green trees at Xaviers.

Friday, November 29

UNCANNY X-MEN #427
One day.  Warren, Paige, and Jubilee visit Skins grave in Los Angeles, where we see green grass and trees.  It is long enough after UX 423 for Angelo to have been buried.  In fact, this story may occur after EXILES 30 (22-23).  The narration notes that this story occurs after a month that included the attacks by the Church of Humanity and by Polaris  I interpret this to mean that those events occurred in the same month and that this story is set early in the following month.  Husk and Jubilee deal with the exhumation and cremation of Angelos body because of cemetery policy regarding mutants, while Archangel uses his healing power to save some hospitalized kids.

Saturday, November 30

UNCANNY X-MEN #429
One day.  It is a few weeks after UX 422 and some time after UX 406 (1-21).  One early morning, Nightcrawler inexplicably jets off from Westchester and as Xavier prepares to send a team after him, he has an altercation with Juggernaut and a restrained Polaris spouts off at Annie.  Several hours later, the X-Men arrive at Isla des Demonas, where they find Kurt participating in a strange ritual.  We see a full moon and green grass and trees at Xaviers and bathing suit weather off Florida.

UNCANNY X-MEN #430
The same day as UX 429.  It is a few weeks after UX 422.  Sammy is abused by his father at his home in Vancouver, where we see green trees.  Xorn wants to put Carter in his special class (and reveals some Magneto-like thoughts).  Xavier and Annie explore Lornas mind to find the reason for her recent behavior.  The X-Men are attacked by demonic creatures as they try to rescue Kurt from Isla des Demonas, then they are engulfed in an explosion.

UNCANNY X-MEN #431
The same day as UX 429.  Given Xorn has not yet revealed is identity and Xavier is still walking, this issue must occur before X 146; indeed, since Scott is still with the X-Men, this issue must occur before X 139 (1-20)

Thursday, December 26

X-MEN UNLIMITED #35/3 (11-12)
One day.  Xavier, Cyclops, Storm (who appears well here), Wolverine, and Beast see the X-Men movie that was being made in XU 35/3 (1-10).

Monday, January 13

X-MEN UNLIMITED #38 (1-10)
It is a year to the day after Colossus death in UX 390.  Kitty Pryde attends class at the University of Chicago, so it must be a weekday during the college year.  She thinks she sees Peter Rasputin.  We see blowing leaves and coat and scarf weather in Chicago, but the green trees must be topical.

Tuesday, January 14

X-MEN UNLIMITED #38 (11-18)
The day after XU 38 (1-10).  Kitty blows off her classes looking for the man she thinks is Peter, so it is another weekday during the college year.  After seeing Peter again, Kitty goes home to find Nightcrawler there.  Again, we see blowing leaves and coat and scarf weather in Chicago, but the green trees must be topical.

Wednesday, January 15

X-MEN UNLIMITED #38 (19-22)
The day after XU 38 (11-18).  It is another day of classes at the University of Chicago.  Kitty catches up with the cop who looks like Peter.  Lockheed hasnt made it back to Kitty yet.  Again we see blowing leaves and coat and scarf weather in Chicago, but the green trees must be topical.

WOLVERINE v2 #181  FB
One night.  Logan kills Freddo Mazzos mobsters, who hold a young girl hostage in a bar.

WOLVERINE v2 #181
The same night as W2 181-FB.  Logan frees the girl.

Thursday, January 16

WOLVERINE v2 #182
The day after W2 181, judging from the newspaper coverage, although Johnny refers to W2 181 as having occurred that night, rather than last night.  It is one week before the end of W2 183.  Wolverine arrives at the home of Freddo Mazzo with the hand of one of the mobsters he killed and offers to destro rival mob boss, the Roman, if Freddo forgives a $20K marker against the father of the girl.  Freddo accepts.  The green grass and trees in New Jersey may be topical.

Friday, January 17-Wednesday, January 22

WOLVERINE v2 #183
The span of one week following W2 182.  Logan destroys four of the Romans crews and the Roman hires a hitman named the Sweeper to kill Logan.  Can we break this issue into segments?

Thursday, January 23

WOLVERINE v2 #184
One day, all these months after W2 184-FB.  Logan kills the Sweeper and the Roman, but Freddo reneges on his deal and kidnaps the girl again to get Logan to silence a grand jury witness scheduled to appear in his pending federal trial.

WOLVERINE v2 #185 (1-8)
The same night as W2 184.  Much to Johnny Delacavvas disgust, Freddo makes a new deal with Logan.

Friday, January 24

WOLVERINE v2 #185 (9-21)
The day after W2 185 (1-8).  Freddo stands trial and the witness appears, but before Freddo can retaliate, Logan hands him over to Johnny for disposal, leaving Johnny in charge of the Pazzo family.  Bare trees in New Jersey.  Full moon.

Monday, January 27

WOLVERINE v2 #186
One day, shortly after W2 185 (9-21).  Upset about Logans handling of Johnny Delacavva, the Punisher goes after the mutant, who defeats him.  The green grass and bushes may be topical.

Sunday, February 2

WOLVERINE v2 #188
A Sunday.  Detective Lester Brown is having a tough time investigating fellow cop Scott McLawry, who admits to Brown that he has murdered innocents, not knowing that Logan is listening.

Monday, February 3

WOLVERINE v2 #189
The day after W2 188.  This issue occurs before W3 1 (1-3).  Logan confronts McLawry and gets him to locate the bodies of his victims, then Logan provides Brown with the information to make the collar.  Green grass and trees.  Full moon.

Sunday, February 16

WOLVERINE v3 #1 (1-3)
One rainy night, sometime after W2 189.  Logan has an apartment in Portland, Oregon (?) and his neighbor Lucy Braddock waits tables at a nearby diner.  Apparently Logan has had this life for at least several days.

Monday, February 17

WOLVERINE v3 #1 (4-8)
The day after W3 1 (1-3).  Lucy catches Logan returning to his apartment with a knife in his leg.  Lucy writes in her diary that people are out to get her.

Tuesday, February 18

WOLVERINE v3 #1 (9-20)
The day after W3 1 (4-8).  After Logan and Lucy meet and chat, the Brothers show up and gun them down.  It is five days before W3 3.

WOLVERINE v3 #2 (1-2p5)
The same night as W3 1 (9-20).  Logan removes the bullets from his body.

WOLVERINE v3 #1 (21)
The same night as W3 2 (1-2).  After the authorities and coroner leave, Logan goes to Lucys apartment and finds a book.

WOLVERINE v3 #2 (2p6)
The same night as W3 1 (21).  Inside the book is Lucys diary.

Wednesday, February 19

WOLVERINE v3 #1 (22)
The morning after W3 2 (2p6).  Logan reads Lucys diary and gets clues about her murder.

Thursday, February 20

WOLVERINE v3 #2 (3-6)
The day after W3 1 (22).  Lucys murder happened the night before last.  Logan uses his contacts to track down the Brothers through the illegal sale of the firearms they used.  Hes given a lead about a gun show this weekend.

Saturday, February 22

WOLVERINE v3 #2 (7-21)
One day during the weekend after W3 2 (3-6).  Logan attends the gun show and meets the dealer who sold the Brothers their firearms.  That night he convinces the dealer to give him the name and location  of the buyer.  It is a couple months after December.  Green trees and coat weather.

Sunday, February 23

WOLVERINE v3 #3
The day after W3 2 (7-21).  It is five days after W3 1 (9-20). ATF arrests the dealer.  Logan arrives in Westfall to look for the buyer and runs into Lucys father, who tells Logan that the buyer is the sheriff.  That night the sheriff and the Brothers shoot up the house where Logan and Lucys dad are.  Green grass and trees and blowing leaves.

WOLVERINE v3 #4
The same night as W3 3.

Tuesday, March 4

WOLVERINE/DOOP #1 (1-9p3)
One day, sometime after XS 10.  Wolverine (sans goatee) is called in to investigate a missing piece of pink fur and encounters the Pink Lady.

Friday, March 7

WOLVERINE/DOOP #1 (9p4-11)
One day, probably several days after W/D 1 (1-9).  Wolverine cant get his mind off the Pink Lady.  Orphan and Doop are called in to investigate people turning pink and talking gibberish.  It is two weeks before W/D 1 (12-22).

Friday, March 21

WOLVERINE/DOOP #1 (12-22)
One night, two weeks after W/D 1 (9-11).  After working on the Pink Lady case for two weeks, Wolverine and Doop find the Pink Lady and end up suspecting that each other has Code-X, a gene that renders mutants unstable.  Orphan and Professor X appear.

WOLVERINE/DOOP #2 (1-19)
The same night as W/D 1 (12-22).  Wolverine and Doop rescue the Pink Lady from Hunter Joe.  Professor X and Orphan appear.  

Saturday, March 22

WOLVERINE/DOOP #2 (20-22)
The day after W/D 2 (1-19).  This segment probably occurs before XS 11 (1-15).  After spending the night in Toronto, Wolverine and Doop go their separate ways and share some post-op.  Green trees in Toronto and in California, where we see X-Statix (but no El Guapo).

Monday, March 24

X-TREME X-MEN #20 (1-15)
One day.  Bishop and Sage have returned from California to rejoin Storm and Logan in New Orleans, where Logan oversees her (resumed) rehabilitation.  Logan tells Storm that nature has its own pace (a lesson theyve both learned now) and remarks that shes doing better than expected, nowhere as good as she wants.  Storm also bemoans the fact that the rehab for her injury in XX 18 is taking so long.  Sage refers to the events of X 115 as having occurred recently.  She also references the mutants they met in XXX 1 (8-13), which may not have been very recent, given her comment, Remember California?  Bishop talks of rejoining Xaviers band of X-Men, and Ororo may not have shared with him her encounter with Archangel in XXX 2 (19-22).  Bishop and Sage then investigate some murders on a night with a full moon.

Tuesday, March 25

X-TREME X-MEN #20 (16-22)
The day after XX 20 (1-15).  Bishop and Sage go to Xaviers, where they encounter Emma Frost and the mutant responsible for the murders.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

X-TREME X-MEN #21
The same day as XX 20 (16-22).  Bishop and Sage are teleported away from Xaviers while Emma Frost tries to deal with Garrett, who shes harboring while Professor X is away from the mansion, perhaps on his way back from his appearance in Los Angeles in XS 8 (1-6).  Storm tries to reason with Emma from New Orleans, where we see Logan starting to grow the goatee we see fully sprouted in UX 417 (8-22).  The weather at Xaviers is so cold that a lake on the grounds is iced over; this is inconsistent with the green grass and trees seen in XX 20 (16-22).

X-TREME X-MEN #22
The same night as XX 21.  Although a student at Xaviers refers to the events of XX 20 (16-22) as the other day, it must have actually been earlier this day.  Bishop and Sage storm the Xavier Institute, forcing Storm, despite her less-than-full recovery, to fly from New Orleans to New York, where she fights Emma.  We see snow on the ground at Xaviers, even before Storms arrival, and this is inconsistent with the green grass and trees seen not only in XX 20 but in this very issue.  Perhaps it is the beginning od spring and the different scenes co-exist.

X-TREME X-MEN #23 (1-16)
The same night as XX 22.  The X-Men battle Elias Bogan in the Danger Room.

Wednesday, March 26

X-TREME X-MEN #23 (17-22)
The morning after XX 23 (1-16).  The X-Treme team disagree with Xaviers philosophy and leave Professor X, White Queen, and Jean Grey at the Institute, where we see snow.  Emma must appear here before her murder in X 139 (21-22).

X-TREME X-MEN #24 (20-21p2)
One day, months after XX 24 (18-19).  Sam and Lila return to Paris, where it isspring and we see green grass and trees.

Thursday, March 27

X-TREME X-MEN #24 (21p3-21p4)
Probably the morning after XX 23 (1-16).  In Paris, Cannonball and Lila have breakfast and read an on-line news item about the events of XX 20-22.

Friday, March 28

X-TREME X-MEN #24 (21p5-22p1)
One day.  Still in Paris, Cannonball and Lila learn of the riot at Xaviers via the internet.  This is not necessarily news, but its the first time Sam has learned of it, as he was off-planet for months.

Saturday, March 29

X-TREME X-MEN #24 (22p2)
One day.  Cannonball learns that things with the X-Treme team are serious, though Im not sure what the exact reference is.

Monday, March 31

X-TREME X-MEN #24 (22p3-23)
One day.  Cannonball calls Storm to Paris, where we see green trees.  Storm wears the miniskirt we saw in XX 23.  He accepts her offer to join the X-Treme team.		

Monday, May 5

X-TREME X-MEN #25
One day.  It is probably a weekday during the college year.  In freeing Stryker from incarceration, Deathstrike makes it appear that Stryker was killed in an airplane explosion by the X-Men.  We see snow in the Rockies and green trees in Kentucky, where Cannonball has invited Storm, Bishop, Sage, and Wolverine (sans goatee).  The X-Men investigate the site of the plane crash.  Kitty sees her school psychologist, and that night, she is abducted from the Belles of Hell by Deathstrike and Stryker.

X-TREME X-MEN #26
The same day as XX 25.  The X-Treme team battle Strykers troops in the snowy Rockies and take captives as they try to figure out what Stryker is up to.  Stryker tries to break Kittys will, but fails.  Deathstrike is forced to try to kill Stryker by the man who runs Mount Haven, who views Stryker as a threat.  Stryker escapes with Kitty in hand.

X-TREME X-MEN #27 (1-13)
The same night as XX 26.  Shadowcat phases cross-country as the earth as it spins on its axis, causing Storm to lose control in the Rockies, creating a blizzard and undoing all the good work....accomplished these past months in physical therapy.  Waning crescent moon.

Tuesday, May 6

X-TREME X-MEN #27 (14-23)
The day after XX 27 (1-13).  Kitty finds herself in Mt. Haven, where we see green grass and trees and warm weather.

X-TREME X-MEN #28
The same day as XX 27 (14-23).  Stryker and Deathstrike defeat Kitty and the X-Treme team at Mt. Haven, where we see green trees and warm weather.  Cannonball vows to save the day.

X-TREME X-MEN #29
The same day as XX 28.  Cannonball fights Deathstrike after she seemingly kills Logan, then he faces a brainwashed Storm.  Bishop faces a brainwashed Sage.  Stryker shows Kitty the truth behind Mt. Haven, then strikes her and Reverend Paul down.  Green grass and trees and warm weather in Washington state.

X-TREME X-MEN #30
The same day as XX 29.  Logan recovers and many of Mt. Havens nannite-infested residents die when Paul is out of commission.  Stryker and Kitty discover that Paul is a cybernetic sentient and Stryker sacrifices his freedom to keep Paul contained.  That night in Chicago, the X-Men hang at the Belles of Hell and Kitty considers running for alderman in a municipal election this fall.  Green grass and trees in Washington state.

Thursday, May 22

NEW X-MEN #138 (10-14)
A Thursday.  Xorn helps Quentin Quire cast off his physical body and achieve another plane of existence; it is not known how long Quire may have spent at Xaviers in a catatonic state.  Xavier notes that the school will be closing for the summer in exactly six days  this may be the date that all students who attend Xaviers during the regular academic year should be gone; as we see in NM2, the school does remain open for relatively few students in the summer.  He also notes that after the break, he will step down as headmaster.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.

Friday, May 23 

NEW MUTANTS v2 #1 (10-25)
One school day.  Rejected on her sixteenth birthday by her father and her classmates, Sofia Mantega destroys one of her fathers supermarkets and is thrown in jail.  Dani Moonstar shows up to take Sofia to Xaviers, which is publicly known as a school for mutants with bad publicity, a clue that this segment occurs after the riot in X 138 (1-6).  It is clear that Dani does not live at Xaviers, but rather in Colorado.  It is a Friday in May.  We see green grass and trees in Boulder.

NEW X-MEN #138 (15)
The day after X 138 (10-14), a Friday.  Emma Frost goes clothes shopping with Angel.  According to X 140, this segment occurs a few days before X 139 (21-22).

Saturday, May 24

NEW X-MEN #138 (16-23)
The day after X 138 (15), a Saturday.  We see a prize-giving ceremony at Xaviers  this is a year-end ceremony that probably occurs between the end of the spring session and the beginning of the summer session shown in NM2 2.  Angel informs Beak that shes pregnant with his child; this revelation so soon after their apparent first sexual encounter in X 136 (1-21) is an indication that Angels physiology is radically different from a normal humans; this is confirmed by Beaks statement in X 141 that there is a life cycle of, like, only five days between the sex and the birth, but this doesnt mean that Angels pregnancy lasts only that long  it cant be less than five days after X 136 (1-21), given the other temporal references in this run of issues.  That night, Jean Grey returns to Xaviers with Dust, who she may have retrieved after Dust spent some time in India after X 133).  Jean finds Scott and Emma in a compromising situation.  That Jean is fetching mutants for Xaviers may be a clue that this segment occurs before NM2 2, where Dani gets the job of recruiter.  Green grass and trees in Westchester.

NEW MUTANTS v2 #2
The day after NM2 1 (10-25).  NM2 2-FB is noted as having occurred last year, although this may be a reference to last school year.  Dani and Sofia arrive at Xaviers, where they meet Professor X, who notes that it is the start of the summer session and that some students have gone home for the summer.  This is an indication that this issue occurs after the prize-giving ceremony in X 138 (16-23).  The fact that some students remain for classes appears to contradict the statement in X 138 (10-14) that the school would close for the summer.  Xavier is still here, apparently before the time he planned to leave the school, as noted in X 138 (10-14).  And we do have confirmation that classes do not observe a conventional schedule, as it must be Saturday, since NM2 1 (10-25) is noted as having occurred yesterday.  Dani is no longer a teenager, but it wasnt long ago that she was.  Dani arranges for Sofia to room with Laurie Collins and agrees to be Xaviers recruiter  presumably after Jeans assumption of that role through X 138 (16-23).  Northstar appears here.  Green grass and trees and jacket weather at Xaviers.

NEW X-MEN #139 (1-20)
The same night as X 138 (16-23).  An angry Jean mucks around with Emmas mind and the X-Men grow concerned about Jeans Phoenix power.  Cyclops takes off.  The Stepford Cuckoos state that school is over for the summer, implying that, while the school itself is to close on the upcoming Wednesday, classes are already over.  We see green grass and trees at Xaviers.

Monday, May 26

NEW MUTANTS v2 #3 (1-19)
One day.  While Magma lays in a coma (where shes been since just after UX 423), Dani recruits a mutant with decaying power in Atlanta, where we see green grass and trees.  School is in session, both at Xaviers (where Beast is teaching as part of summer session) and at a public high school (not summer vacation yet), where student Kevin Ford hasnt reported for the last two days.  There is a reference to finals at the high school, and Dani claims to represent a summer program.  We see short sleeves at Xaviers.

Tuesday, May 27

NEW MUTANTS v2 #3 (20-22)
The day after NM2 3 (1-19).  Kevin Ford is examined at Xaviers and Xavier reveals the comatose Magma to Dani.  Since Xavier is walking here, this segment must occur before X 146.

NEW X-MEN #139 (21-22)
One night.  According to X 140, this segment occurs a few days after X 138 (15).  Beast finds Emmas diamond body smashed to pieces.

Wednesday, May 28

NEW X-MEN #140 (1-14)
The day after X 139 (21-22).  It is sometime after XX 23 (17-22).  Summer vacation is cancelled until further notice, while Bishop and Sage are called in to investigate Emma Frosts murder.  Late this day, the Stepford Cuckoos note that school ought to have closed for summer by now, so it is likely that this is the day the school was scheduled to close, six days after X 138 (10-14).  Scott is still absent. Nightcrawler is back from the archaeological expedition.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

Thursday, May 29

NEW X-MEN #140 (15-22)
The day after X 140 (1-14).  Bishop and Sage continue their investigation, and Angels brood of larvae are discovered.

NEW X-MEN #141
The same day as X 140 (15-22).  Angels brood hatches.  The X-Men discover that Angel and Beak were set up to take the fall for Emmas murder by Esme and a partner whose identity remains unknown, as Esme mindwipes Bishop and Sage to escape.  Bishop wonders where Scott has been.  Phoenix fuses Emmas diamond pieces back together, allowing Emmas disembodied spirit to return to her body.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.  Esme makes another reference to summer.

Saturday, May 31

NEW X-MEN #142
One night, probably within a couple of days after X 141, since it is unlikely that Xavier and Bishop would dawdle about trying to find Cyclops.  Wolverine (sans goatee, and probably wearing the new outfit with yellow stripes under his jacket) finds Scott at the Hellfire Club trying to get drunk.  Sabretooth is also there, and it appears that hes on his own reconnaissance  he may be here after he escapes Weapon X in WX2 xx.  Logan is also at the Hellfire Club to meet with Fantomex to begin a mission to take down the Weapon Plus program, and he tries to get Cyclops to join them.  The narration notes Emmas murder in X 139 (21-22) as having occurred last month, but it must be only days earlier.

Sunday, June 1

NEW X-MEN #143
Probably the early morning after X 142; since Scott is expected to have a hangover, it is likely several hours after X 142, but it is still dark out.  Logan, Scott, and Fantomex infiltrate the evolutionary engineering facility, the World.  There they encounter AIM agents who have been attacked by Weapon XV.

NEW X-MEN #144
The same early morning as X 143.  Inside the World, Logan, Scott, and Fantomex encounter Weapon XV, who breaks free and heads for the Weapon Plus space station.  Full moon.

NEW X-MEN #145
The same day as X 144.  Logan, Scott, and Fantomex follow Weapon XV to the Weapon Plus space station, where Logan accesses files concerning his identity, then, desperate and disturbed, he blows up the station.

NEW X-MEN #146
The same day as X 145.  Having escaped the satellite in a spacecraft, Scott and Fantomex crash into the Pacific Ocean.  Beast and Emma head out to retrieve them, but their aircraft is sabotaged.  Phoenix departs for space to retrieve Logan, who she finds alive. Jean and Wolverine discover that the Weapon Plus space program is Asteroid M, which is also rigged to explode.  Xavier formally meets Dust, so this issue cant occur long after UX 138 (16-23).  Dust attacks and disables Cerebra at the order of Xorn, who cripples Xavier and reveals himself to be Magneto.  Xavier states that he still hopes to step down this summer as headmaster of the Institute.  Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

NEW X-MEN #147
The same day as X 146.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
Posted by Dimadick on September 16, 2003 at 05:21:02:
In Reply to: X-Men: The New Calendar
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 15, 2003 at 21:14:18:

Impressive work and quite an interesting school year for the X-Men. Could this same school year include Peter Parker's recent activities as a teacher following Amazing Spider-Man II #31?

> Friday, January 17-Wednesday, January 22

> WOLVERINE v2 #183
> The span of one week following W2 182.  Logan destroys four of the Romans crews and the Roman hires a hitman named the Sweeper to kill Logan.  Can we break this issue into segments?

It could at least be braken in scenes based on the characters appearing and their whereabouts. There is no reference to the times passing between them. It could just as easily be a minute or a week.

Scene 1:Pages 1-9. The scene begins outside the "Sons of Italy" private club. A man leaning on the wall reads his newspaper. Its front page story is talking about a "Mob War", apparently mentioning the conflict between Freddo Pazzo and the Roman. Inside there are eight mobsters discussing baseball. One of them is old and possibly retired. Between panels 2 and four Wolvie enters and occupies a seat. When they inform him this is a private club and only those invited can enter he proceeds in starting slaughtering them. Outside the man with the newspaper is listening to to the sounds of the fight and then sees one of the mobsters thrown out of the window. The man is Punisher. He seems annoyed and comments "Oh, that's just great. I hate half days." then quietly leaves. Inside Wolvie finishes butchering them living only the old man alive. He drinks a cup of coffee, makes a comment about baseball and then leaves. Outside we see Johny Delacavva and Tony Ditello stalking him and discussing the situation. End of the scene.

Scene 2:Pages 10-15. Two police agents are stalking the Roman. He is out walking, dressed like an ancient Roman and causing a publing scene. Thene he returns home changes into a business suit and pets his cat Cleopatra. Bruno, his current assistant rushes to his office and informs him of the new attack by the "clown with the claws" and speculates that the clown may be from Philadelphia. The Roman reminds him of his rules not to discuss business in his house "as we don't know who might be listening". This is the third and last reminder as The Roman proceeds in feeding Bruno to three starved lions.

Scene 3: Page 16 and narration boxes of pages 17 and 18.The Roman is out having a walk and discussing with Vincente, apparently Bruno's replacement.  He informs his assistant of his plans to recruit the Swipper.

Scene 4:Pages 17 and 18. Flashback to one of the Sweepers succesful mission under orders of the Kingpin.

Scene 5:Pages 19-21. Wolvie returns to the Pazzo's headquartes and meets with Freddo Pazzo, Johny Delacavva and Tony Ditello. Freddo shows Wolvie that days edition of the Daily Bugle. Its front page article is titled:"Freddie Got Fingered. Pazzo Family boss awaits star witness". Freddo wants to offer Logan permanent employement but the later declines. He steps outside of their headquarters. It seems to be nighttime outside. The Sweeper starts stalking him.

Sadly not a lot of references to work with.

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 16, 2003 at 06:56:20:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
posted by Dimadick on September 16, 2003 at 05:21:02:

> Impressive work and quite an interesting school year for the X-Men. Could this same school year include Peter Parker's recent activities as a teacher following Amazing Spider-Man II #31?

You betcha.

> > Friday, January 17-Wednesday, January 22

> > WOLVERINE v2 #183
> > The span of one week following W2 182.  Logan destroys four of the Romans crews and the Roman hires a hitman named the Sweeper to kill Logan.  Can we break this issue into segments?

> It could at least be braken in scenes based on the characters appearing and their whereabouts. There is no reference to the times passing between them. It could just as easily be a minute or a week.
 
> Scene 4:Pages 17 and 18. Flashback to one of the Sweepers succesful mission under orders of the Kingpin.

Oh great...a flashback we'll need to place somewhere. :(   How long ago does this occur?

> Scene 5:Pages 19-21. Wolvie returns to the Pazzo's headquartes and meets with Freddo Pazzo, Johny Delacavva and Tony Ditello. Freddo shows Wolvie that days edition of the Daily Bugle. Its front page article is titled:"Freddie Got Fingered. Pazzo Family boss awaits star witness". Freddo wants to offer Logan permanent employement but the later declines. He steps outside of their headquarters. It seems to be nighttime outside. The Sweeper starts stalking him.

Well, this segment cannot occur on a day on which the Bugle has another headline in a different comic, but that doesn't help much.

Does W2 184 pick up right where this last scene leaves off?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
Posted by Dimadick on September 16, 2003 at 11:49:03:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 16, 2003 at 06:56:20:

> Oh great...a flashback we'll need to place somewhere. :(   How long ago does this occur?

Frankly no idea. When this issue was published this flashback was discussed in the Project but with little result. Kingpin is present only in the last two panels, in his traditional business suit. The Swipper has sent him a diamond he retrieved from his latest victims and he seems to examine it. At the time of Wolverine #183 publication Kingpin was in a coma following a storyline of Daredevil. It was presumed that the flashback occurs before this coma but again no certain placement for it. The scenes of the flashback have no dialogue to offer clues.

> > Scene 5:Pages 19-21. Wolvie returns to the Pazzo's headquartes and meets with Freddo Pazzo, Johny Delacavva and Tony Ditello. Freddo shows Wolvie that days edition of the Daily Bugle. Its front page article is titled:"Freddie Got Fingered. Pazzo Family boss awaits star witness". Freddo wants to offer Logan permanent employement but the later declines. He steps outside of their headquarters. It seems to be nighttime outside. The Sweeper starts stalking him.

> Well, this segment cannot occur on a day on which the Bugle has another headline in a different comic, but that doesn't help much.

> Does W2 184 pick up right where this last scene leaves off?

Again uncertain. It can again be separated in scenes though.

Scene 1:Pages 1-5. Wolvie enters "Clyde's" Cafe' and the Sweeper follows him inside. They occupy different tables. The Sweeper attempts to light a cigarete. Wolvie immediately complains that "Some of us are tryin t'breath over here". He approaches the Seeper, shares his table and gives a two-pages-long lecture about the dangers of smoking . He concludes that "These things...they'll kill ya". All this time the Seeper has been preparing his gun under the table. He grins and comments that: "They're not the only things...". He never concludes the comment. Wolvie is faster in drawing his claws under the table and killing him. The scene concludes with Wolvie asking for his check and the panel focusing on the Sweeper's ashtray. (Didn't Wolvie used to smoke cigars not too long ago? What happened?)

Scene 2:Pages 6-7. The Roman receives a package containing the cremated Sweeper's ashes. Signed "Logan". He then procedes to give Vincente a lecture about how Attila the Hun and how he routinely invaded both the Eastern and the Western Roman Empire, looting and pillaging. "Until they paid him an annual fee to go away". He wants to have an audience with Logan and plans to pay him to stop atacking his operation. (Actualy The Roman is wrong. Even with his annual fee , Attila continued to invade the Roman Empire. He was constantly demanding an increase of his fee and in the process exausting the finances of the Empire. He only stopped this practice when he died in 453 AD. His nose started bleeding while he slept and he apparently drowned in his own blood.)

Scene 3:Pages 8-9. Nightime. Wolvie comes walking out of a spa. Two men start shooting at him. His assasins are surprised since most bullets find their target and this target still doesn't fall. Someone observes the scene unnotices. We later find out he is Johny Delacavva.

Scene 4:Page 10. Freddo Pazzo converses over the phone with Tony Ditello. The later has found and captured the girl Wolverine is supposedly protecting. Freddo has the day's issue of Daily Bugle in front of him. Its front page reads like this:Who's that Girl? Who is the star witness in the Freddo Pazzo Case-and where is she?". Still nightime where Tony is.

Scene 5:Page 11-13. Wolvie slaughters his would be assasins. Then he finds and captures Johny Delacavva who was behind them. Wolvie comments Johny is "somethin' old an'past it's due day". Johny asks for a favor:"Finish me off already! Take this old, useless gangster out of this miserable existance once and for all". Wolvie doesn't have time to take a decision. Vincente and four heavily armed men arrive and informs both "fellas" that Roman wants a word.

Scene 6:14-22. They are apparently transported to the Roman's headquarters. Wlvie demands Roman's "white flag". Instead the later intends to pay him. When Logan declines the Roman attempts to throw him to the lions. Instead Logans gets to grab Roman's throat and threatens to claw his face. The Roman is not scared. As a distraction he orders his men to throw Johny to the lions. Logan hesitates a bit but then answers Johny's cries for help. He faces the lions and apparently intimidates them. They withdraw. Logan then throws Roman to them and escapes with Johny. Johny thanks him. They don't have much time to discuss. Freddo calls Logan and lets him know he has the girl. Tony has already brought the girl to Freddo's office actualy. Both Logan and Johny seem surprised. End of the issue.

Again not enough references on how much time passes between scenes. Possibly aExcept naturaly scenes and 5 clearly separated by only a few minutes.

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 16, 2003 at 20:06:12:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
posted by Dimadick on September 16, 2003 at 11:49:03:

Thanks for the added info, Dimadick.

--Paul

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Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
Posted by Kevin  on September 17, 2003 at 20:16:19:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 16, 2003 at 20:06:12:

Since I'm just playing catch up around here, I'll just come right out and ask:

I see your calender covers an entire school year, starting with New X-men #128 and going till next May in New X-men 146.  So what event made you finally breakdown and decide you had to span it over a year?  Cause originally we were talking of making the school break being referenced in New X-men be the Winter Break...

> > > Oh great...a flashback we'll need to place somewhere. :(   How long ago does this occur?

> > Frankly no idea. When this issue was published this flashback was discussed in the Project but with little result. Kingpin is present only in the last two panels, in his traditional business suit. The Swipper has sent him a diamond he retrieved from his latest victims and he seems to examine it. At the time of Wolverine #183 publication Kingpin was in a coma following a storyline of Daredevil. It was presumed that the flashback occurs before this coma but again no certain placement for it. The scenes of the flashback have no dialogue to offer clues.

Well, let's go over it again, just to be sure:

Is Kingpin wearing his dark, "I'm blind" glasses?  I assume he isn't, since you mention he's examining a diamond.  If that's the case, then it MUST occur before Kingpin was blinded in DD2 #15.  It doesn't list how long ago this flashback occurs?

I'm thinking the best place is probably between DD2 #8 and DD2 #9, in between the two opening storylines.  

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
Posted by Dimadick on September 18, 2003 at 04:24:19:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
posted by Kevin  on September 17, 2003 at 20:16:19:

> Is Kingpin wearing his dark, "I'm blind" glasses?  I assume he isn't, since you mention he's examining a diamond.  If that's the case, then it MUST occur before Kingpin was blinded in DD2 #15.  It doesn't list how long ago this flashback occurs?

It is a silent scene so no such reference. The Kingpin's eyes are not depicted at all in both panels that he appears. In the first they are covered in shadows. In the second we see him approach the diamond to his face but again his eyeas are not seen.

> I'm thinking the best place is probably between DD2 #8 and DD2 #9, in between the two opening storylines.

It could work. And this appearance has no lasting effect to the character. Another appearance that as far as I remember has not been placed with certainty is the one in Spider-Man's Tangled Web #4 where he kills Tom Cochrane.

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Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
Posted by Jeph! on September 18, 2003 at 12:15:18:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
posted by Dimadick on September 18, 2003 at 04:24:19:

The last time we discussed this, it was pointed out that the Sweeper WROTE THE KINGPIN A NOTE -- "All clean", sitting atop the ashes.

Therefore, unless the Sweeper has commited a horrible faux pas, the Kingpin's GOT to be sighted -- and, if I recall correctly, we DID place the flashback between DD2 #8-9.

-Jeph!

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Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
Posted by Kevin  on September 18, 2003 at 15:52:23:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
posted by Jeph! on September 18, 2003 at 12:15:18:

After typing my message last night, I remember that just the last weekend, I bought a bundle of recent Wolvie back issues, and sure enough, I double checked, and this issue was one of them.

You guys are right: This is obviously a Kingpin who isn't blind.  It's a pretty much random appearance, it could fall anywhere, at least anywhere before he went blind, (they just wanted to show this guy worked for the Kingpin at one point, at least, that's how I'm reading it).

So, yeah, between DD2 #8 and #9 is probably the most recent and convenient place to put it. Problem solved. Sorry for bringing it up again, as it's a minor Kingpin appearance of little importance. ;-)

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 18, 2003 at 07:07:29:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
posted by Kevin  on September 17, 2003 at 20:16:19:

> I see your calender covers an entire school year, starting with New X-men #128 and going till next May in New X-men 146.  So what event made you finally breakdown and decide you had to span it over a year?  Cause originally we were talking of making the school break being referenced in New X-men be the Winter Break...

There are just way too many temporal references to the spring/summer in recent X-titles to make me comfortable with sticking with the more compressed time period.  Jeph's suggested reorganization of X and UX exposed the idea of putting a gap in UX 138, and that enabled me to split fall and spring X-stories.  Given the big revelation in the most recent New X-Men, it seemed like a good idea to make that the most recent issue, which forced other stories (e.g. Wolverine solo adventures) before this, and the gap provided a nice spot.  Then we have the gap for other MU events like Asgard-over-Manhattan, etc., which was forcing a gap in Avengers-related titles anyway.

So, it was a combination of clues that finally added up.

--Paul

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Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
Posted by Kevin  on September 18, 2003 at 15:55:50:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 18, 2003 at 07:07:29:

Going over your X title chronology, I'd have to agree: the solution you and Jeph came up with works best.  A gap in some of the titles, to squeeze in appearances in other titles, seems to work for the best, and it helps to spread events out a little more conveniently.

How about in another month or so, we get to see what the latest version of the full fledged calender looks like? ;-)

			*	*	*

Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 18, 2003 at 19:57:44:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men: The New Calendar
posted by Kevin  on September 18, 2003 at 15:55:50:

Hopefully.  There are a few things left to do:

1) Adjust the X-Men calendar to deal with Mystique (post coming forthwith).

2) Replace all the old X-entries in the calendar with the new ones.

3) Deal with Spider-Man.  Still awaiting word from Antonio on a first draft of a new Spidey calendar, then I'll post it here for more comment.

4) Make changes to Spidey and do the same replacement process for his entries.

5) Add Paul O'Brien's recent Elektra analysis.

6) Add new comics I pick up in the next few weeks.

7) Add other analyses that contributors might submit in that time.

Then get ready for the longest post ever.

--Paul

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New Calendar Adjustment for Mystique
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 18, 2003 at 20:16:14:
In Reply to: X-Men: The New Calendar
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 15, 2003 at 21:14:18:

Okay, I'll be the first one to note a screw-up in the calendar.  It hit me in the face when I saw the final page of this week's UX 431.

In UX 406, Mystique gets trapped in Abyss' dimensional portal.  In UX 431, she escapes the portal.  Thus, the Mystique series must begin AFTER UX 432 (or whenever the Draco storyline in UX ends), not before.

Professor X is standing in MYS 1-3, so the current storyline in Mystique's series must occur BEFORE the current New X-Men storyline (which is where we had it).

So...

Current storyline in Uncanny, followed by...
Current storyline in Mystique, followed by...
Current storyline in New X-Men.

We've placed a big gap between the current Uncanny and New X-Men storylines, so the question is, when in that gap do we place Mystique?

Remember that in Mystique #1, it appears that Xavier and Forge have been out of touch for quite a while.  Remember also that Forge attended the aborted wedding in UX 425.  So we want to put as much time as we can between UX 425 and MYS 1.  (Another good reason for the gap!)

So...take the MYS entries in the new X-calendar and move them down to May 19-20 -- which is when I estimate a full moon (shown in MYS 2) -- right before the death of Quentin Quire and the start of the New Mutants series.

My current calendar (not posted) reflects that move, and notes in affected entries of UX, X, and MYS have been modified accordingly.

I'll readjust again if the current Mystique storyline "goes long" or if there's a reference to the amount of time Mystique spent trapped.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Punisher Chronology
Posted by Mark on September 18, 2003 at 09:21:12:

I have a list of what I think to be the Punisher chronology. Does anyone out there have a list that I canm compare to?

			*	*	*

Re: Punisher Chronology
Posted by Jeph! on September 18, 2003 at 12:18:08:
In Reply to: Punisher Chronology
posted by Mark on September 18, 2003 at 09:21:12:

You mean, besides the one available right here on the MCP?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Captain Marvel Vol. 4 #14-Spoilers
Posted by Jim on September 18, 2003 at 09:45:01:

Just wanted to get some other opinions on this.  Are we seeing an in-continuity reality here since Entropy and CM recreated the universe?

Are we going to get a "put it all back together later" in this storyline a la recent issues of Thor?

Furthermore, will this issue pop up twice as a BTS in the first couple volumes since two different incarnations of CM have been brought here?  Yes it says that they will only remember it as a dream, but it still happened.

Like I said, I'm just looking for other opinions here.  This comic is making my head hurt lately and I would just like to try and ease the confusion with the help of other heads, (or just share the headache, whichever).

Jim

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Re: Captain Marvel Vol. 4 #14-Spoilers
Posted by Jeph! on September 18, 2003 at 12:20:54:
In Reply to: Captain Marvel Vol. 4 #14-Spoilers
posted by Jim on September 18, 2003 at 09:45:01:

> Are we seeing an in-continuity reality here since Entropy and CM recreated the universe?

Very likely, yes.

> Are we going to get a "put it all back together later" in this storyline a la recent issues of Thor?

Doubtful -- in this issue, CM claims to have fixed the time rips, so I think that's the end of it.  Even though he claims he didn't do a perfect job recreating reality, I don't think we'll be seeing ANOTHER reboot.

> Furthermore, will this issue pop up twice as a BTS in the first couple volumes since two different incarnations of CM have been brought here?  Yes it says that they will only remember it as a dream, but it still happened.

Very likely, yes.  It'll also pop up in Rick Jones' early chronology twice.

Hope that helps...

-Jeph!

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SOMON...SOUL-EATER...SPIDER-MAN
Posted by Arthur Stein on September 18, 2003 at 16:43:26:

new entries marked **

SOMON
**AF 24
**AF 38
**AF 55
**AF 64
XM 39

SOUL-EATER
The flashback in Q 36 (11) specifically references T 261 - T 263 as the origin of the Soul-Eater.
**T 261 Features Krll whose life energy animates the Spirit mold and creates the Soul-eater in T 262 and again in Q 36-FB
**T 262
**T 263
Q 36-FB

SPIDER-MAN/PETER PARKER
M/TU 17
**SUB-M 68  (32p7)
SUB-M 69

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering!

#119

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Chronology reviews for Hulk #55-59, for the Calender...
Posted by Kevin  on September 18, 2003 at 19:41:05:

Well, FINALLY here's my latest set of reviews...this at least catches me up on Hulk for the next few months...

Hulk #55
Hide in Plain Site pt. 1
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Leandro Fernandez

Appearances:  Bruce Banner, Absorbing Man, New Characters: Dr. David Zhan, Judy Laughton, Pamela Grayson, Warden C.J. Johnson

Synopsis:  THIS ENTIRE STORYLINE, PARTS 1 THRU 5, HAPPENS IN 24 HOURS, STARTING WITH MORNING OF DAY 1, (PROBABLY FEB. 17) AND ENDING THE NEXT MORNING AROUND DAWN, (PROBABLY FEB. 18TH).  IN A FEW INSTANCES, THE WRITER SEEMS TO THINK THIS STORY WAS SPREAD OUT OVER A FEW DAYS, BUT IT READS CONTINOUS. SEE BELOW.

As you already have this issue, Paul B., and as I find myself having less time in my life right now, Ill save myself the trouble of doing a plot synopsis for this issue, and just focus on items of interest in the references section.

I will make note, though, that the issue begins with a vagabond Bruce Banner and Judy watching a TV interview outside a store in New York City. The interview features Dr. David Zhan, who is going on and on about his new Plasma Containment Beam, which he has used to imprison the Absorbing Man in a Secret Federal Prison.

The issue ends with Pamela Grayson approaching Bruce in a Subway station, while at the same time, Dr. Zhan goes into the Absorbing Mans prison chamber, carrying a gun in hand.

References:  Concerning the date: On pg. 6, Dr. Zhan says, Was Judy along in Creels chamber at any time yesterday?

Then, later on, when Dr. Zhan and Warden Johnson go to inspect Judys computer diaries, on pg. 9, we see Dr. Zhan read, Ah, here we are.  Feb. 16th: completed rounds with Creel.  Mr. Johnson later says, My God, and its only Monday!  

On Page 7,  a hungry Bruce Banner confronts Pamela in a restaurant, and asks if hes seen her somewhere.  She replies, On T.V. yes.  Look, if you dont mind.  But Bruce says It was in the newspaper actually.  If the story of Pamelas friend commiting suicide was in the paper, that would hint that this scene on pg. 7 is the next day.  That would give the paper time to print the story.

But then, on Page 14, after Dr. Zhan, Mr. Johnson, and the guards break up the couple that were tricked by the Absorbing Mans mind tricks, Mr. Johnson chews out the young man, saying, And on the day of Judys death!  Its unconscionable!  

So that would strongly hint all events of this issue happen on the same day.  I can find no place to put a break.  Maybe Banner just said he saw her in the paper, so as to throw her off her guard, so he could continue the conversation, and get her food which she wasnt eating, (which he did seem mighty intent on getting).

Also on Page 7, Pam says, Im not the least bit hungry tonight, so its early evening I suspect.

About the weather: The trees dont have any leaves really, and everyone is wearing winter style clothes, which seem to reinforce the notion this is February.  Its also raining very lightly in the scene where Bruce is watching TV on the opening pages: it appears to be a cold drizzle.

Hulk #56
Hide in Plain Site pt. 2: Inside Out
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Leandro Fernandez

Appearances:  Bruce Banner, Absorbing Man, Dr. David Zhan, Pamela Grayson, Warden C.J. Johnson

Synopsis: SAME NIGHT AS LAST ISSUE, PICKS UP RIGHT WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE.

Bruce spins around to confront Pamela, who ran away from him and his interrogations last issue.  Bruce starts to apologize, but she gets a strange gleam in her eye, (which happens when the Absorbing Man takes control of a person) and pushes Bruce down onto the tracks in front of the incoming subway train.  He quickly transforms into the Hulk, and stops the subway train in its tracks, causing a railway accident.

Meanwhile, in Creels prison cell, Dr. Zhan pulls out his gun and tells Creel he doesnt know how hes controlling peoples minds, but hes not going to stand by and let him get away with it.  He pushes a button on the control panel, which lowers the Plasma Sheild, and he raises the gun, when all of a sudden, he feels Creel start to claw his way into his own mind.  Slowly, Zhan points the gun away from Creel and towards his own skull, and just before he lets off a shot, a security guard walks in, checking on Creel.  He notices Zhan acting strange, and Zhan, (controlled by Creel) pulls the gun away from his own head and fires on the guard, killing him.  More guards come running in, and Zhan looks down at his handywork, now free from Creels control, for the time being.

Meanwhile, the instant Creel took over Dr. Zhan, Pamela came to, seemingly waking up, (its important to note that Creel can only possess one mind at a time).  She looks at the damage to the subway around her, not remembering what happened.  She looks down to see Bruce Banner, (half naked) asking for her to pull him up out of the Subway rail floor.  She does, and asks what happens.  Seeing some security guards coming, he gets her to follow him, and they flee back upstairs, out of the subway together.

Outside, she asks just what is going on, and why she has no memory of what just happened.  Banner changes into a spare set of clothes, (which are in his handy dufflebag which he carries around) and sits her down.  He gets her to focus, to try and remember the last thing she saw before her memory went blank.  She focuses, and suddenly, she sees in her mind the image of the Absorbing Man, (whom she doesnt know, but she screams out from the image of this evil grinning man).  Bruce gets her to calm down, and upon her explaining what she saw, he begins going over the events of the night.

Meanwhile, Warden Johnson comes into a locked down room his guards are watching over Zhan, and he yells at his men, ordering them to take the cuffs off of Zhan.  Zhan confesses, and says, Its true, I killed that man. Johnsons in total disbelief, he doesnt know what to make of Zhans actions.  After the guards leave, Johnson pulls out the security video, and plays it on a monitor.  Zhan calmly explains that Creel took possession of his mind.  Johnson pushes a few buttons, and comments on how great digital technology is, especially digital technology owned by the Federal govt: you can cover up anything.  With a few twists of a dial, the image of Zhan shooting the guard in cold blood changes to Zhan sliping and accidently setting off his gun, killing the guard by accident.  Zhan asks Johnson why? and Johnson turns to reveal that evil grin, showing hes possessed by Creel.  He pulls out Zhans gun, (which the guards handed to him) and threatens Zhan, saying that theyre going to keep this quiet, and make it look like an accidentfor now anyway  Creel, (through Johnson) says that hes got a little surprise in store for all of them at this prison:  he warns them, saying something like, Whats big, green and angry?

He then leaves Johnsons mind, leaving Zhan to explain that Johnson was under Creels control.  Johnson checks the tape, and it was an accident, and Johnson begins to question Zhans sanity.

Meanwhile, Banner buys a newspaper from newsstand, showing the cover to Pam.  The paper shows a photo and story on the Absorbing Man, (its probably in connection to the Interview on TV that Zhan did, the interview that proclaimed that Creel was safely locked away).  Banner asks if this is the face she saw, and she says yes, but she doesnt see how thats possible.

They walk down a bridge walkway, next to the only semi busy late night traffic, going over the events.  Suddenly, Bruce begins to feel something happening in his mind.  He knows Creel is trying to take his mind, and so he focuses, using his meditation techniques, (focusing on the image of the lovely lady in the bikini), and he suddenly begs for Pam to run away from him.  Confused, she does so, running back down the walkway.  Suddenly, a semi truck on the bridge swerves, racing towards her.  Bruce jumps in knocking her out of the way just in time.  The Semi Truck swerves around, making a U turn, coming around for another hit.  Pam says, That crazy driver tried to kill me! To which Bruce replies, Thats not it.  Hes trying to bait me

As the truck races forward, Bruce pushes Pam out of the way, but is struck by the Truck head on!  A fiery explosion happens, and in the wreckage of the Truck, we now see the Hulk rising up out of the wreckage, an evil grin on his face

References:  On Page 10:  When Johnson arrives to see why the guards called him in concerning Dr. Zhans commiting a crime, Johnson yells at them, Its 3 in the morning!  and he says, Im gone for 4 hours, and the whole damn facility falls apart, is that it?

So its the middle of the night by now.

The newspaper headline reads, AM show Nielsons Spike with Creel Exclusive  Which just means the show with the interview got good ratings.  If this is the middle of the night, maybe this paper is the early edition just being released.  So that WOULD give time for the story on Creel and Zhan appearing on that morning show to make it into the next days newspaper.

Banner says on page 13, You pushed me in front of that train tonight, remember?  So theres no gaps here, even though as these issues progress, I think the writer meant to spread this story arc out over a few days

Hulk #57
Hide in Plain Site pt. 3: A Mind of his Own
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Leandro Fernandez

Appearances:  Bruce Banner, Absorbing Man, Dr. David Zhan, Pamela Grayson, Warden C.J. Johnson

Synopsis: SAME NIGHT AS LAST ISSUE, PICKS UP RIGHT WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE.

The Hulk, (with Creels mind) picks up Pam in his colossal fist.  Trying to tear away from his grasp, she  just now figures it out:  The Absorbing Man has escaped from prison, at least his mind has anyway, and this new friend that she has made, Bruce, is actually Bruce Banner, the Incredible Hulk.  A bunch of Police Cars pull up, and start opening fire on the Hulk.  Pam yells at the Hulk, asking for Bruce to come out and take control, saying, I know you can do it Bruce! Youve got to fight him! Which makes Creel just laugh.  One of the bullets from the cops guns slings by Pam, grazing her arm.  She cries out in pain, and for a brief instant, the Hulks expression changes, to show the gentle side of Bruce, who whispers her name, P-Pamela??

Cut to a short period later, inside Banners mind, (and this scene is really brilliantly played out):  Banner awakes in the dark room, to find Creel speaking to him, telling him to get up.  A door lights up nearby, and Banner opens it, to find hes in a hallway.  He closes the door behind him, and walks down the hallway, and tries to open up the door at the other end, but he finds its locked.  All the while, Creel is telling him hes got to figure out just whats going on here.  Suddenly, water starts flooding into the hallway, starting to fill it up.  Banner says he doesnt have time for mind games, but Creel explains this isnt his doing, hes just encouraging Banner to figure out whats going on.  Banner thinks for a minute, till just as the water has reached over his head, that he suddenly remembers:  He saw Pamela was wounded, and so he changed back to Bruce Banner, and jumped over the Bridge, into the water of New York Harbor below.  Creels says something like, Thats right, Banner, now wake up! Youre almost out of air!

Banner bursts forth from the water, having come to his sense just in time, before running out of air.  Swimming over to shore, Banner can tell that Creel is no longer in his mind. Banner quickly realizes that Creel helped Banner, he kept him from drowning, just so Creel can turn around and use the Hulk later on.

Pam, meanwhile, is up on the bridge, which is overflowing with cops and ambulance workers, one of whom bandages up her arm on the spot.  Pam is still worried about Bruce though, so she asks one of the policeman to take her home.  Driving down the road, she is eventually let off at not her home, but her old friend Judys apartment, (she faked the officer out, telling him that THIS was her residence).  She knocks on the door, and the old landlord lets her in, and she goes upstairs and into her friend Judys apartment, where she starts tearing through her personal stuff.  Pam realizes shes got to call up the place where Judy worked, (at the secret prison) and warn them that Creel is going to escape.  She finally finds the number to a Dr. Zhan

Meanwhile, Dr. Zhan is bitterly trying to explain that Creels mind is on the loose, but Mr. Johnson wont hear it.  Just then, a guard walks in and explains that theres a phone call for Dr. Zhan.  Mr. Johnson allows him to take the call, but watches over his shoulder.  On the other end is Pam, who explains that she was a friend of Judy, and she fears that Creel is about to escape, explaining that Creel plans on using the Hulk to break Creels body out.  Zhan is gasping in amazement, and Mr. Johnson is wondering just what Zhan is up to now.  Zhan tells her to listen to him carefully, saying that he has no power here anymore, that hes no longer in control.  Johnson jerks the phone out of his hand and hangs up.  He feels Zhan is either insane, or pulling some huge prank on them, and he orders Zhan confined.

Meanwhile, Bruce climbs up on the bank of the Jersey shore, walking up to a road, where he sees a car lying parked next to the road.  Inside, he sees a dead couple, whose throats have been slashed.  He spins around to see a little girl just standing there.  He asks if what happened to her parents was an accident, but she gets that evil grin on her face, and holds up a bloody knife, replying, Not really, no

Banner explains he wont take part in whatever scheme Creel has cooked up, but just then, more police cars come pulling up, (they must have figured out which side Banner swam to) and they get out and aim their guns.  When Banner refuses to cooperate, the little girl hands the knife over to Bruce, and the police yell at him to put down his weapon

References:  Pam asks Judys landlord, Have you rented Judys apartment yet, George?  As if its been several days since she died.  But this HAS to be the same night as the last couple of issues, as I see no way to break this story arc up.  I think the writer was just getting careless.  Its possible this is the next night, or so, but I dont see how this story can be broken up.

Hulk #58
Hide in Plain Site pt. 4: Brain Dead
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Leandro Fernandez

Appearances:  Bruce Banner, Absorbing Man, Dr. David Zhan, Pamela Grayson, Warden C.J. Johnson

Synopsis: SAME NIGHT AS LAST ISSUE, PICKS UP RIGHT WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE.

Bruce turns back to the little girl, and tells Creel that hell go along with him for now, but he has to let things work out HIS way, for the moment.  Creel agrees, and Banner turns back around and begins a tense negotiations with the police.  He explains that YES,  he is Bruce Banner, the Incredible Hulk, (as they suspected, the word is out on the police channels) but he explains they cant arrest him, and the only way to prevent innocent loss of life here is for them to do exactly what he says.  Frankly, I think the police Captain in charge at the scene was more than a little intimidated, cause he agrees to Banners conditions.  Banner asks to use one of the polices phones.  He somehow finds Pamelas number, (or I guess Judys number, I guess the police explained where the dropped off Pam at, this is kinda hazy) and he calls her up.  Pam had just got off the phone with Dr. Zhan, and she reacts with surprise upon hearing Bruces voice.  Bruce explains that theres not much time, that hes down here on the Jersey shore side, and that shes got to call up Dr. Zhans prison and explain theyre in danger.  He hangs up on her, before she can explain that she just got off the phone with them.  Using the hints he gave as to where he was, she runs back down, and jumps in her dead friend Judys car, racing off to Jersey.

The Absorbing Man, in the little girls body, doesnt like how well Banner has pulled this off without a loss of life, so he does a quick mind jump, and jumps into one of the police officers minds, who fires on Banner, wounding his arm.  Banner, in pain, and thus, not in control, transforms into the Hulk, and starts picking up police cars and tossing them, causing most of the cops to flee.  Creel, back in the mind of the little girl, smiles at the carnage, but takes note that the Hulk cant bring himself to kill the police, (he notes that Banner still has a measure of control over the beast).  Enraged, the Hulk throws a cop car over towards the little girl, causing it to explode near her.  Its the Hulks way of sending a message to Creel: Dont #### with the Hulk basically

The Hulk changes back to Banner, and orders one of the remaining cops to strip, so Banner can use his clothes.  He and the little girl then take off in a cop car.

A few moments, Pam pulls up, and noticing all the damage around, she figures out that this was where the Hulk was last.  She then speeds off down the road in pursuit of them

At a train station somewhat nearby, Banner and Creel, (in the little girls body) get onboard a train, heading for a small town in upstate New Jersey called Vicksburg.  As they sit down for the train ride, the kid and mother sitting across from Banner and his child start to take notice of them.  This mothers little girl notices Banner, saying, Isnt that the man from the newspaper, mommy?  She looks at Banner, and Banner looks at her, and she starts to panic, but just then, in walks Pamela Grayson, who calmly acts like this is her husband, and she says to Creel, (in the girls body)  What have I told you about disturbing the other passenger?  She then apologizes to the mom, explaining, Oh, did you think he looks like that wanted manwhats his name? Bannett?  He gets that a lot.

So the situation is saved.  Later on, in a dining car section of the train, they sit around talking.  Pam questions why Bruce is letting Creel order him around like this.  Bruce explains that if he doesnt do exactly what Creel wants, hell force the little girl to kill herself.  Its better if Banner goes and confronts Creel at this prison.  So he can put a stop to this here and now

The train arrives in Vicksburg, and they get out, marching towards a cemetery which is just over the next hill, (its under this cemetery that the Secret Federal Prison is). 

References:  Creel, (in the girls body) says, I want no more near misses or unwanted guards blundering into the chamber, like the night Zhan tried to shoot me!  HELLO!?!?  Its the same night!  Or at least, the story flows like it isbut the writer acts like it was several nights ago

The newspaper headline the mother on the train is reading reads, Police still seek Fugitive Banner  Either this is a national news story, or the police in the New York area had been told of the possibility that Banner is in  the New York area, because surely a newspaper wouldnt be printed for a police incident which JUST HAPPENED.

Also, Creel says that Its a 2 hour by train to Vicksburg. So by the end of the issue, I figure its GOT to be getting close to dawn

Also, Ill note that the reason that Creel seems to be acting so clever, (he usually in his appearances just smashs stuff up, hes been portrayed as a big dummy)  is that when he absorbs these minds, he gains a little bit of their intelligence at the same time, (he at one point refers to Dr. Zhans mind as being very stimulating, while Mr. Johnsons is dull, and filled with nothing more than sports programs and pornos)  Wether this intelligence boost is permanent, or just temporary, for as long as he stays in the host body, that I dont know, and is never clearly explained

Hulk #59
Hide in Plain Site pt. 5: note: no specific title given for this final chapter for some reason
Written by Bruce Jones
Drawn by Leandro Fernandez

Appearances:  Bruce Banner, Absorbing Man, Dr. David Zhan, Pamela Grayson, Warden C.J. Johnson

Synopsis: SAME NIGHT AS LAST ISSUE, PICKS UP RIGHT WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE. 

So they walk into the cemeteryand the little girl points at the ground, and tells Banner to bring out the Hulk and start digging.  Banner says he doesnt think they can get past the Plasma Shield holding Creel.  Creel says that hes been in Dr. Zhans body, and hes learned that the Dr. Sheild isnt perfect: theres a weak point at the top of the shield, which if Banner, (as the Hulk) hits it hard enough, it should break open

Banner says, Fine, but well leave the Hulk out of this,  and using the strength of the Hulk, (while still in Banner form, a technique hes learned in recent issues, if youll recall, through his meditation studies). He picks up a giant tombstone, and uses it like an overgrown shovel, digging through the ground rapidly.  Breaking through into the chamber below, he jumps down, and starts to hit the top of the Plasma shield with the tombstone.  Pamela and the little girl Creel watch from above.

The guards of course sound the alarm, and Mr. Johnson races down the hallway.  Dr. Zhan knocks out the guard who was watching over him, and races down the hallway as well. They all enter the Prison chamber, to find Bruce has successfully opened up a big enough crack to jump down into Creels prison.  The Little Girl Creel up above demands that he bring his body up there.  Bruce says he has a better idea, and starts pummeling on Creels unconscious form, trying to kill it.  Johnson sees that his prisoner is being killed, and (thinking Creel is already dead or unconscious) turns off the plasma shield.  The instant that happens, Creel awakens back within his own body, punches Bruce out of the way and leaps down to the ground.  Bruce looks up to see that the Absorbing Man has already put his bodies powers back into work, absorbing most of the contents of this metal prison chamber, turning himself into a giant colossus with all that metal and wires wrapped around him.  Most of the Guards are killed in Creels next attack, as he bursts through the ground, coming up through the cemetery, destroying all around him.  Pamela runs away with the little girl in her arms, (who keeps asking where she is, and where is her mommy). 

Banner transforms into the Hulk, and does battle with Creel, who just keeps absorbing more and more of the landscape around him, till he is truly a huge, hulking creature made up of dirt, and tombstones, and of long dead skeletons, (this is a cemetery after all).  Pam races with the girl down into the newly formed hole, (its more like a huge valley) as the two behemoths wrestle up above.  Over in a corner, Dr. Zhan is dying, (having apparently been crushed by all of the junk that Creel tossed around.  Mr. Johnson stands over him begging forgiveness, knowing that this is all his fault.  Pamela asks Zhan what they can do to stop Creel.  Zhan mumbles meekly, pointing towards his head.  Zhan then dies.  Pamela thinks for a minute, then figures out what he was trying to communicate to her.

Creel is knocking around the Hulk pretty easily at this point, and bragging that he can go anywhere, do anything, absorb anyones mind, absorb anything, etc.  Pamela steps forward and shouts out that thats not true, that Creel wont get away from this graveyard, thanks to the safety measures installed by Dr. Zhan.  At first, Creel doesnt believe her, but she explains that Dr. Zhan WAS able to hold him for a long period of time in the Plasma Shield.  Surely Dr. Zhan had a back up plan for this prison area.  Hulk looks over to Pam, suddenly figuring out that shes got something planned, (I guess Banners intelligence is starting to filter through).  Creel falls for the trap, and he giant behemoth walks over to where Zhan lies on the ground, (believing that Zahn is only unconscious, just like Pam intended). Pam brags that hell never be able to get the secret out of Zahns mind, but Creel laughs, and says thisll only take a moment, and he flies into Zahns mind, only to be greeted in the mind landscape by a blankness all aroundCreel mutters, (in shock) Somethings wrongtheres nothing here!  And he finds hes fading away, much to his horror.

Back out in the real world, the Hulk has transformed back to Banner, and they sit around and look down at Creels body, (Creels absorbed behemoth has disconjoinedleaving Creel lying there on the dirt.  Now heres what I dont understand, his body looks all decomposedmaybe upon Creels mind fleeing, his special body didnt hold together, and was crushed by all this garbage that he had clumped together to form a Giant Behemothbut the point is, as the group quickly realizes: Creel is dead.

The only people left alive appear to be Banner, Pam, the little girl, (who is strangely calm, she must be in shock) and Mr. Johnson, all of whom agree to let Banner go free.  Pamela tells him to run, before the authorities arrive, to go and get lost in the streets of New York City, so as to avoid detection.  He walks off, just as the sun starts to appear over the horizon, (so its Dawn, or shortly after Dawn)

Finally, on the last page, we cut to where a Narrative caption reads, Somewhere In Asia I believe its somewhere in China, to be more specificHere, we see a young couple holding up their newborn baby, (which the mother has just had).  The father is a bit disturbed: something about their child doesnt look right.  The mother rebukes him, saying that their child is lovely, and that the child has huge, bright eyes.  And we close in to see the baby, and it has Creels evil eyes and wicked grin.

References:  Theres a lightning bolt in the sky as they enter the cemetery on the 1st page, and there are storm clouds in the sky overhead, so if its morning by now, then the reason we cant see the sun is because of these storm clouds.  We do see the sun coming trough on the next to last page, as Banner walks away, back to New York City.

Okay, thats it for this storyarc.  Now, going by what I described, does it not seem to all have happened on one night?  And yes, the writer seems to have mistaken that he spread this story out over several days.  If anyone can tell me if thats possible, be sure and shed some light, otherwise, Im going to safely assume that all this happens on Feb. 17th, going by the comments in the first issue, and ends on the morning of the 18th.

Also, let me make note that the next issue, (which I wont review yet; Ill wait till this new storyline is finished) issue #60, MUST pick up shortly after the final issue of the last story arc, the one with the Abomination, and Nadia Blonsky, and S-3, (who were were led to believe is the mysterious Mr. Blue, but thats still up in the air).  In #60, S-3 collapses on Nadia Blonskys porch, still suffering from the wounds given to her at the Abominations Area 51 prison nearby, as seen in Hull #54.  Meanwhile, at the same time those events are happening, Banner is shown to be in New York City, trying to stay low from the members of The Secret Conspiracy.  From the way it reads, very little time at all has passed since Hulk #54, meaning the events of #54 happened, Banner must have immediately traveled up to New York, get caught up in the story arc of #55 to #59, (on or around Feb.17th) and #60 must occur just a day or two laterat least thats how Im reading it for now, because they way they depict S-3 suffering from her wounds, surely she would have bled to deathIm surprised she was able to drag her self all the way to Nadias Desert residencestupid decompressed style of storytellingthey never let great lengths of time passyou know, it's almost like Bruce Jones, the writer, wants to pretend that the Absorbing Man storyline never even happened, and Issue 60 picks up immediately after Issue 54.

Stay tuned for more info as this new storyline progresses

On another quick note, Ill note that after the Red Cloud storyline, (or whatever its called) wraps up in Avengers, the immediate next storyline is called, The Search for She-Hulk and revolves around the Avengers going searching for Jennifer, who was last seen going insane in a recent issue of Avengers.  Jennifer is at the same time looking for Banner, who (from what Ive read) she thinks can cure her of whatever ailment currently afflicts her.  So THIS will be the point which Bruce Banner reenters the rest of the Marvel Universeas it will be the first time in over 2 years that the Hulk has appeared in another comic besides his own.

So wait and see: the next few months will reveal more.  

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Re: Chronology reviews for Hulk #55-59, for the Calender...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 18, 2003 at 20:27:19:
In Reply to: Chronology reviews for Hulk #55-59, for the Calender...
posted by Kevin  on September 18, 2003 at 19:41:05:

> Well, FINALLY here's my latest set of reviews...this at least catches me up on Hulk for the next few months...

Thanks, Kevin.  You can add my incorporation of your notes into my list of things to do before the next edition of the master calendar comes out.

> On another quick note, Ill note that after the Red Cloud storyline, (or whatever its called) wraps up in Avengers, the immediate next storyline is called, The Search for She-Hulk and revolves around the Avengers going searching for Jennifer, who was last seen going insane in a recent issue of Avengers.  Jennifer is at the same time looking for Banner, who (from what Ive read) she thinks can cure her of whatever ailment currently afflicts her.  So THIS will be the point which Bruce Banner reenters the rest of the Marvel Universeas it will be the first time in over 2 years that the Hulk has appeared in another comic besides his own.

That works out just fine for the calendar.  I've placed the current Avengers storyline in the spring after this arc of Hulk issues. (Look at that warm weather in the South Dakota "Red Zone," for one thing.  Then there's the gap for Asgard-over-Manhattan.)

--Paul (still relieved that we're able to make the calendar work out more or less)

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Re: Chronology reviews for Hulk #55-59, for the Calender...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 18, 2003 at 22:12:24:
In Reply to: Chronology reviews for Hulk #55-59, for the Calender...
posted by Kevin  on September 18, 2003 at 19:41:05:

Kevin,

Where in H3 56 would you say the break from Feb. 17 to Feb. 18 occurs?  Between pages 9 and 10?  How many pages is H3 56?  In other words, how would you label the calendar entries...

February 17
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #56 (1-9)

February 18
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #56 (10-21)

??

Judging from your description of the flow of the storyline, it must occur over the course of a night, as you suggest.  We'll just have to ignore dialog that suggests a longer span.  Sigh.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology reviews for Hulk #55-59, for the Calender...
Posted by Kevin  on September 20, 2003 at 10:26:09:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology reviews for Hulk #55-59, for the Calender...
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 18, 2003 at 22:12:24:

Hmmmm....so you're wanting to know when the break inbetween the two days really occurs, (in other words, when is the story clearly after midnight)...well, I suggest the break comes in between pages 8 and 9 of H3 56.

Let me explain:

In issue 56, pg. 8, (3 panels) we see on panels 1 and 2 Bruce and Pam exiting the Subway quickly...

in the 3rd panel, we cut back to Dr. Zhan, who is standing over the body of the guard he shot, as more guards rush in, shocked to see the good Doctor has murdered someone...

Pg. 9 cuts to later.  Bruce and Pam are trying to sort out just what's going on here. Bruce sits her down on a park bench and tries to get her to focus and remember what she saw before she blacked out, back there in the subway tunnel.  In the last panel, an image of Creel appears in Pam's mind, and she reels back in shock.

pg. 10:  Johnson reenters the Secret Prison, walking into the room where the guards are holding Zhan.  He says it's 3 am in the morning, and that "I'm gone four hours, and the whole place falls apart, is that it?"  So he went home (as seen last issue) around 11 am then...and Dr. Zhan immediately picked up his gun and marched down to Crel's chamberin the last issue...

pg. 11: We cut immediately back to Pam and Bruce on the park bench, and she's screaming, and Banner shakes her and wakes her up.  She explains what she saw, and Banner thinks about it, beginning to piece together that maybe Creel is on the loose...

So hardly any time passes in between pages 9 and 11, from the way the story flows in between Pam remembering Creel's face, and Bruce shaking her out of the vision...so, thus, I reccomend using a break between pages 8 and 9.

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology reviews for Hulk #55-59, for the Calender...
Posted by Kevin  on September 20, 2003 at 10:29:14:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology reviews for Hulk #55-59, for the Calender...
posted by Kevin  on September 20, 2003 at 10:26:09:

Oh, sorry, forgot to mention: you asked how many pages...well, there is 22 pages in H3 56.  From what I can tell, all of Bruce Jones written issues of Hulk are exactly 22 pages in length...

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology reviews for Hulk #55-59, for the Calender...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 20, 2003 at 19:54:25:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology reviews for Hulk #55-59, for the Calender...
posted by Kevin  on September 20, 2003 at 10:29:14:

Okay.  Thanks for the info, Kevin.  Consider these issues on the calendar.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Thor
Posted by David Hall on September 19, 2003 at 19:42:59:

Thor appears in Captain America 366 in between pages of Thor 411. (As does Juggernaut, but this is already in his listing.)

			*	*	*

1/2 question
Posted by Kman00001 on September 20, 2003 at 02:12:14:

Hi.  Anyone know when Generation X 1/2 and Wolverine 1/2 take place?  Any help would be great.

			*	*	*

Re: 1/2 question
Posted by David Hall on September 20, 2003 at 10:01:36:
In Reply to: 1/2 question
posted by Kman00001 on September 20, 2003 at 02:12:14:

I have Gen X 1/2 listed between Gen X 40 and 41.

Wolv 1/2 recaps Wolv #100, so it happens sometime after that, but I haven't placed it exactly yet.

			*	*	*

Better MCP Search?
Posted by Ross Snyder on September 20, 2003 at 11:12:37:

Is there any interest in having a better MCP search function?  There seems to be a lot of weird issues with the current one - it's rather unwieldy, and it misses some stuff (latest example - Dracula appears in GSS-M 1.  Go to the "D" page and it's there.  But search on the specific issue GSS-M 1... no Dracula.)  Plus, having to enter stuff in all caps makes it feel like the search feature was cutting-edge circa 1989.  Not to mention that, in general, a Java applet is overkill for something like this.

I'm a computer programmer by trade and by hobby, and would be open to the idea of putting together a better search feature.  Or are people satisfied with the current one?

			*	*	*

Re: Better MCP Search?
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on September 21, 2003 at 15:22:40:
In Reply to: Better MCP Search?
posted by Ross Snyder on September 20, 2003 at 11:12:37:

No offense to the designer of the current search feature, but I find it impractical.  A better search, particularly one accessible through the navigation bar, would prove very helpful.

- SK

			*	*	*

Re: Better MCP Search?
Posted by Jimmy Petersson on September 22, 2003 at 07:59:04:
In Reply to: Better MCP Search?
posted by Ross Snyder on September 20, 2003 at 11:12:37:

It's me who programmed the search...

>it misses some stuff (latest example - Dracula appears in GSS-M 1.  Go to the "D" page and it's there.  But search on the specific issue GSS-M 1... no Dracula.)

Hum, I have forgotten to update the mcp-files on the server where the search engine is located. I hope that is the problem and I will update the files probably later this day.

>Plus, having to enter stuff in all caps

That's easy to fix. Didn't think about that...

>makes it feel like the search feature was cutting-edge circa 1989.

... 

>Not to mention that, in general, a Java applet is overkill for something like this

The applet is just a graphical interface here. Is java script to prefer?

> I'm a computer programmer by trade and by hobby, and would be open to the idea of putting together a better search feature.  Or are people satisfied with the current one?

There are two big disadvantages with the current search:

The engine is located on a server that are for free. That makes it more unreliable and slower than it has to be.

The mcp files also have to be located on that server so I have to update them when the mcp is updated (which I have forgotten).

When you're at it, I would appreciate some feedback on the Marvel Chronology Graph that I've programmed. See link below.

			*	*	*

Found the bug
Posted by Jimmy Petersson on September 23, 2003 at 01:18:57:
In Reply to: Re: Better MCP Search?
posted by Jimmy Petersson on September 22, 2003 at 07:59:04:

> >it misses some stuff (latest example - Dracula appears in GSS-M 1.  Go to the "D" page and it's there.  But search on the specific issue GSS-M 1... no Dracula.)

> Hum, I have forgotten to update the mcp-files on the server where the search engine is located. I hope that is the problem and I will update the files probably later this day.

Updating the files didn't help. I have located the bug and will fix it this weekend.

			*	*	*

Re: Better MCP Search?
Posted by Ross Snyder on September 23, 2003 at 23:44:01:
In Reply to: Re: Better MCP Search?
posted by Jimmy Petersson on September 22, 2003 at 07:59:04:

> It's me who programmed the search...

I'm sorry - I'm not trying to come down on you.  The programming you did was cool and I've used the search feature many times and am grateful.  Seems like the MCP has gotten a lot of mileage out of what you put together.

When I say that an applet is overkill, what I mean is - look at the search box for most any website.  It's not an applet, it's a simple HTML text field where you type stuff in and click "Search".  Granted, this requires access to some kind of dynamic page stuff (ASP/PHP/JSP/etc) and most likely a database, since searching flat files each time is inefficient at best.

If I were to implement this - which I'd like to when I get a few free moments - I'd do a quickie thing in PHP and MySQL, and host it on one of my servers (and monitor bandwidth to see how much gets taken up by it, if any).

			*	*	*

The bug is fixed
Posted by Jimmy Petersson on September 26, 2003 at 16:09:42:
In Reply to: Re: Better MCP Search?
posted by Ross Snyder on September 23, 2003 at 23:44:01:

> I'm sorry - I'm not trying to come down on you.  The programming you did was cool and I've used the search feature many times and am grateful.  Seems like the MCP has gotten a lot of mileage out of what you put together.

Not a problem. It was good that you pointed out the problems. I've now fixed the bug and it is now also possible to search with small letters.

> If I were to implement this - which I'd like to when I get a few free moments - I'd do a quickie thing in PHP and MySQL, and host it on one of my servers (and monitor bandwidth to see how much gets taken up by it, if any).

That's a good idea. The current search is too slow when you're searching for a comic.

http://medlem.spray.se/marvels/chronology.htm

			*	*	*

Re: Better MCP Search?
Posted by Joe on November 18, 2003 at 11:15:50:
In Reply to: Better MCP Search?
posted by Ross Snyder on September 20, 2003 at 11:12:37:

I tried everything to get the search function to work, including redownloading/reinstalling java, getting all of my settings correct in the browser, restarting, erasing cache, but no matter what, I couldn't get the applet thing to load. I asked a friend to try on his machine and he couldn't either. 

Has it been taken down?
Thanks

			*	*	*

Nathan Summers' recent chronology
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 20, 2003 at 21:23:20:

A trip to the quarter bin at the comic store forced me to into another chronology quandary.

The story in SOLDIER X #11-12 takes place over the course of 19 months (according to the narration, and supported by one line of dialog)   from an August of one year to the March two years later.  The end takes place shortly before Nathans entrance in the WEAPON X series (issue #6).

If the temporal references in SOLDIER X #11-12 are correct, we have two options:
1) Place all of this after SOLDIER X #10 and shift the current WEAPON X storyline many months into the future (and possibly muck up Sabretooths chronology, as he presumably appears in NEW X-MEN #142 after the current WEAPON X storyline); OR
2) Take a chunk of SOLDIER X #11 and make it a series of continuity implants, occurring between appearances of Nathan Summers in comics published some time ago.

Id prefer to the do the latter, and Im thinking of the following chronology for Nathan (with notes added for SOLDIER X scenes):

X-MEN v2 #105
SOLDIER X #11 (4-8)
	Cable is in Tokyo thirty-six hours after a Miami murder-suicide that occurs in SX 11 (1-3) in August.  Hes still there four hours later.  He wears the close-cropped hair (no tuft in front) and skinny shades in which he is commonly seen in the last issues of C2 and in SX.  He convinces a terrorist to pursue the Askani religion.

SOLDIER X #11 (10)
	Eight days after that, Cable takes a flight out of Seoul.

UNCANNY X-MEN #386-387
CABLE v2 #85-86
UNCANNY X-MEN #388
CABLE v2 #87
X-MEN v2 #108
CABLE v2 #88
SOLDIER X #11 (11)
	Four months after SX 11 (10), Nathan is in Denver.  Again he has the close-cropped hair and shades.
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 2000

X:MEN: THE SEARCH FOR CYCLOPS #1-4
CABLE v2 #89-107
SOLDIER X #11 (12-13p3)
	Six months after SX 11 (11), Nathan is in Colombia, and Magda Ramirez is sentenced to die in twenty-four hours.  It is ten months after the August murder-suicide of SX 11 (1-3). Nathan sports that close-cropped, shaded look, which is consistent with his other appearances at this point.

SOLDIER X #1-10
SOLDIER X #11 (13p4-14)
	This scene of Nathan in Tel Aviv occurs three months after SX 11 (12-13), then he heads to Florida to save Magda before her execution.  Although no postponement of the execution is mentioned or implied in the story, it HAD to have been postponed.

SOLDIER X #11 (15-22)
	Twelve hours later, Nathan breaks into the Florida prison to free Magda.

>SOLDIER X #12 (1-20)
	Nathan fails to convince Magda to escape, and eleven hours and thirty minutes later, Magda is executed.

SOLDIER X #12 (21-22)
	Six months later, Nathan is in a house in snowy Juneau when he gets a call from Domino about the Weapon X program.

WEAPON X #6-12

This sequence of appearances would work well as far as the calendar goes, but is it acceptable from the standpoint of Nathan Summers chronology?  Can we place Nathans appearances in SX 11 (4-13p3) out of sequence and back in time?  (The first narrative note in SX 11  last August  suggests this approach.)  Can we live with a couple of haircuts and the intermittent wearing of sunglasses?  Any problems with his recruiting Askani followers while he was still with the X-Men?

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Nathan Summers' recent chronology
Posted by Jeph! on September 20, 2003 at 23:22:13:
In Reply to: Nathan Summers' recent chronology
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 20, 2003 at 21:23:20:

> If the temporal references in SOLDIER X #11-12 are correct, we have two options:

> 1) Place all of this after SOLDIER X #10 and shift the current WEAPON X storyline many months into the future (and possibly muck up Sabretooths chronology, as he presumably appears in NEW X-MEN #142 after the current WEAPON X storyline); OR
> 2) Take a chunk of SOLDIER X #11 and make it a series of continuity implants, occurring between appearances of Nathan Summers in comics published some time ago.

No personal offense, but I *hate* option #2.  However, there's two OTHER options...

3) A variation on #1 -- place all of this after SOLDIER X #10 and shift the current WEAPON X storyline many months into the future -- affecting NOTHING, if you assume that Sabretooth's appearance in X #142 comes BEFORE his recapture in WEAPON X #3.

And there's always my favorite, option #4 ... ignore the temporal references in the issue, and compress it down to a manageable timeframe.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Nathan Summers' recent chronology
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 21, 2003 at 06:45:39:
In Reply to: Nathan Summers' recent chronology
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 20, 2003 at 21:23:20:

This is a rare case where I'd support option 2.

SOLDIER X #11-12 span such an extraordinary amount of time that I suspect this is probably what the writer had in mind - if he gave any though to the matter at all.  The basic structure of the story is to establish that this is a news story which has been nagging away at Nathan for months before he finally decides to get directly involved; that's entirely consistent with treating most of issue #11 as flashback.

I would also be comfortable with disregarding references such as "six months later", which are utterly absurd in the context of Marvel's overall timeline, and just reading it as "some time later."

			*	*	*

Re: Nathan Summers' recent chronology
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 21, 2003 at 15:57:44:
In Reply to: Re: Nathan Summers' recent chronology
posted by Paul O'Brien on September 21, 2003 at 06:45:39:

> This is a rare case where I'd support option 2.

> SOLDIER X #11-12 span such an extraordinary amount of time that I suspect this is probably what the writer had in mind - if he gave any though to the matter at all.  The basic structure of the story is to establish that this is a news story which has been nagging away at Nathan for months before he finally decides to get directly involved; that's entirely consistent with treating most of issue #11 as flashback.

> I would also be comfortable with disregarding references such as "six months later", which are utterly absurd in the context of Marvel's overall timeline, and just reading it as "some time later."

And that brings me to option #3 (which I happen to have up my sleeve) -- ignore, or better yet, "adjust" the temporal references.

Here's my proposal -- wherever SX 11-12 makes note of "months," replace that word with "weeks."

Here's how that might work out:

I have SX 6 occurring in late July of the year of the Kang War.  If we can get SX 7-10 to fit within the next four weeks (help with this, anyone??), we can start SX 11 in the August of the Kang War and not mess around with Nathan's chronology:

Saturday, August 24
SX 11 (1-2)
SX 12-FB (7-8)
SX 11 (3)

Monday, August 26
SX 11 (4-8)

Wednesday, August 28
SX 11 (9)

Friday, August 30
SX 11 (10)

Wednesday, September 25
SX 11 (11) -- four *weeks* later

Monday, November 4
SX 11 (12-13p3) -- six *weeks* later; ten *weeks* after SX 11 (1-2)

Monday, November 25
SX 11 (13p4-14) -- three *weeks* later

Tuesday, November 26
SX 11 (15-22)
SX 12 (1-17)

Wednesday, November 27
SX 12 (18-20)

Wednesday, January 8
SX 12 (21-22) -- six *weeks* later; snow in Juneau

Then WX2 6 picks up sometime after that, but within the timeframe of other current titles.  And WX2 6-12 can occur before X 142.

The advantages to this solution:
1) We don't dink with Nathan's chronology
2) We convey the passage of a chunk of time, and even use numbers suggested in SX
3) We don't project the current Weapon X storyline far into the future ('cause you *know* there'll be a crossover or other reference that forces WX2 to be contemporaneous with other current storylines).

What say the chronologists?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Nathan Summers' recent chronology
Posted by Jeph! on September 21, 2003 at 22:48:07:
In Reply to: Re: Nathan Summers' recent chronology
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 21, 2003 at 15:57:44:

> Here's my proposal -- wherever SX 11-12 makes note of "months," replace that word with "weeks."

> What say the chronologists?

Wow.  I was honestly going to type this suggestion in my previous reply to you -- but I felt it would be laughed off.  Amazing.

In any case -- I like this solution.  Elegant, mostly faithful, and keeps the issues in order.

I just picked up Soldier X #10 at the Boston Comic Spectaculah today, so now I have #7-10 -- I'll give them a look-through for feasibility for you.  (By the way, #8 occurs entirely in the year 4003, so it's only #7, 9 and 10 we have to worry about.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Nathan Summers' recent chronology
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 22, 2003 at 07:18:01:
In Reply to: Re: Nathan Summers' recent chronology
posted by Jeph! on September 21, 2003 at 22:48:07:

> > Here's my proposal -- wherever SX 11-12 makes note of "months," replace that word with "weeks."

> > What say the chronologists?

> Wow.  I was honestly going to type this suggestion in my previous reply to you -- but I felt it would be laughed off.  Amazing.

> In any case -- I like this solution.  Elegant, mostly faithful, and keeps the issues in order.

Glad you think so.  It would have been better if the writer hadn't stuck so much time in the story to begin with, knowing what we do about Marvel Time, but I can live with this solution.

> I just picked up Soldier X #10 at the Boston Comic Spectaculah today, so now I have #7-10 -- I'll give them a look-through for feasibility for you.  (By the way, #8 occurs entirely in the year 4003, so it's only #7, 9 and 10 we have to worry about.

Great.  I look forward to hearing back from you about this.  Thank you.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Soldier X #7, 9, 10
Posted by Dimadick on September 22, 2003 at 09:48:34:
In Reply to: Re: Nathan Summers' recent chronology
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 22, 2003 at 07:18:01:

> > I just picked up Soldier X #10 at the Boston Comic Spectaculah today, so now I have #7-10 -- I'll give them a look-through for feasibility for you.  (By the way, #8 occurs entirely in the year 4003, so it's only #7, 9 and 10 we have to worry about.

> Great.  I look forward to hearing back from you about this.  Thank you.

While waiting for Jeph's critical eye to discover temporal references contained within the stories you might be interested in reading summaries of the issues. UncannyXMen. Net has posted summaries for all twelve issues of the series. Provided they are accurate they could proove helpful.

See:http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showfaq.asp?fldAuto=89

Issue #7 places Nathan in Kashmir facing General Daid-Khan and his armie. Events seems to occur over the course of a single day.

Issues #9 and #10 feature a two-part storie titled "Rebels, Freaks and Prophets". Nathan returns to the USA and is after mutant precognitive Jonathan "Jonas" Keller and his group of terrorists. The summaries include time references. According to them events seem to occur over four subsequent days.

For more details you could read the summaries but both storylines seem to occur over a short enough time period to fit in your chronology of Mr. Summers.

			*	*	*

Re: Soldier X #7, 9, 10
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 22, 2003 at 19:47:49:
In Reply to: Soldier X #7, 9, 10
posted by Dimadick on September 22, 2003 at 09:48:34:

Good to know, Dimadick.  Thanks.  We'll wait and see what Jeph comes up with in the way of temporal references so we can take a stab at assigning dates to these issues.

Paul

			*	*	*

Soldier X #7-10
Posted by Jeph! on September 23, 2003 at 19:46:22:
In Reply to: Re: Soldier X #7, 9, 10
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 22, 2003 at 19:47:49:

Here you go, Paul  info on SX #7-10.  I wrote up bits for #1-5 months ago, and posted them on the board  but I never did #6, as I didn't have it at the time.  Let me know if you need information on that issue, or want me to re-post my findings on #1-5.

Soldier X #7
"The Low Budget Action Movie"

One afternoon, night, and the next morning.  Snow on the ground in the mountains of Kashmir (a disputed province of Pakistan).  Full moon.  Blaquesmith II tell us that he has been in Kashmir for "a week", following the present-day events of SX #1-6, so this must be a week (or probably more, factoring in his travel time) after SX #6-FB.  (Remember, for most of those issues, the FBs *are* the present-day bits.)

P.22 is the only page that takes place on the second day, as Nathan and Blaquesmith II leave the village at sunrise  and only panel 1 of the page is canon.  On the rest of the page, Blaquesmith II curses, realizing that they "forgot to do the recap page!", and he and Nathan stare guiltily at the reader.  As they walk away, they discuss how to get the readers to come back for "next issue"

----
(info on SX #8 can be found at the very end)
----

Soldier X #9
"Rebels, Freaks & Prophets" part 1 of 2

Pp.1-2 take place "25 years ago" in Dallas, Texas.

Pp. 3-8 take place the day of the LAX bombing ("day one"), which Karl Bollers unhelpfully labels as "one month from tomorrow".  8:41-10:13 am in Los Angeles and Washington State; blue skies and green trees.

P.9 takes place "less than forty-eight hours" after the bombing, at 11:01 pm in New York City  so this is likely the evening of day two.

P.10-22 take place from 4:08 am to 9:00 pm on day three, in Washington State, North Dakota, Georgia, the Pentagon, and Dallas, Texas.  Full moon.  Nathan Summers returns to the USA (and the "previously" box in SX #10 claims that he's been away from the USA and travelling the globe for a "lengthy period of time").

----

Soldier X #10
"Rebels, Freaks & Prophets" part 2 of 2

Pp.1-7 pick up right where SX #9 left off, at 9:02 pm in Dallas, Texas, on night three.  Full moon shown again.

Pp.8-22 take place on day four, in North Dakota, starting at 6:17 am.  The LAX bombing is stated to be "three days ago", so this is right on.  Gray skies and green grass.  SX #1-9 pp.1-2 are once again referenced as "25 years ago".

----

Since in SX #7, Nathan wanders off into the sunset with Blaquesmith II, determined to do great things and change the world, and here in SX #9-10 he returns to the USA, alone and determined to raise an army, after "a lengthy period of time" away (and if memory serves, he was last in the USA in Deadpool v2 #61, at Deadpool's funeral)  and since they both have full moons  I'd place SX #7 at the very beginning of the four-week gap you were holding, and SX #9-10 at the very end.

Hope that helps, Paul.  Now, some notes about SX #8 and how it may affect the canonicity of stuff in SX #1-6:

----

Soldier X #8
"MMIII, Anno Morinois"

Most of this issue takes place in the year 4006.  Only p.4 (panel 5) and all of p.5 are POSSIBLY canon  and even that's doubtful, as if the issue is accurate it's a flashback to Nathan *dying* of his own free will as the whole world watched  an action that eventually changed the world and spawned the Askani religion.  (And, since Nathan is still alive in the MU, this pretty clearly must be an *alternate* future we're seeing.)

Assuming that this scene takes place in the same timeline as the rest of the Macan/Kordey run, then, since Nathan dies in this scene, it must take place AFTER the "two years in the future" segments shown in SX #1-6  due to the presence in the crowd of Irene and Dragonfly, two characters that, in SX #1-6, hadn't seen or heard from Nathan since Cable #106.  (Geo also shows up, and although he was implied to have been killed in SX #6-FB, we have no proof of that  all we know is that his mechanical arm was ripped off.  It's possible he was just left unconscious by the mob.  This scene MUST occur after SX #6-FB, due to the presence of Mostafa, the man Nathan turns into a bat in SX #7  so Geo MUST have lived.)

If this scenario  Nathan's public death  was the endpoint that Macan and Kordey were aiming for all along, then it's very probable that the "two years in the future" segments of SX #1-6 *also* exist on this alternate timeline, and therefore we don't need to worry about finding slots for them in the MCP.  Things would break down like this:

Nathan's main Marvel Universe timeline:

Cable #106-107
SX #1-FB
SX #2-FB
SX #3-FB
SX #4  (#4-5 did not have framing sequences in the future; they were set entirely in the present day)
SX #5
SX #6-FB

SX #7

(TIMELINE SPLITS OFF!  In the main MU, Nathan returns to the USA in SX #9  in the Macan/Kordey timeline, he continues adventuring with Blaquesmith II, draws the attention of SHIELD, and eventually martyrs himself for his cause.  See below.)

Nathan's main MU timeline continues:

SX #9-12
WX2 #6-13
UX #425-426
"Cable & Deadpool" ongoing series

----

Nathan's Macan & Kordey timeline, branching off at SX #7 and picking up two years from Cable #106:

SX #1 (framing sequence)
SX #2 (framing sequence)
SX #3 (framing sequence)
SX #6 (framing sequence)
SX #8-FB (Nathan's public death)

SX #8 (the year 4006)

If this scenario works, then in the "real" MU, Irene Merryweather never takes a job at the Bugle, and SHIELD agents Gilbert Jordan and Dragonfly aren't on a two-year-old fruitless search for Nathan  which, since these plot points will probably never be touched again, is probably for the best.  And we can now consider all of the above to be non-canon, and there's no need to find spots "two years from Cable #106" on the calendar to slot in the framing sequences from SX #1-6.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re-read before posting ... why do I never learn?
Posted by Jeph! on September 23, 2003 at 19:50:49:
In Reply to: Soldier X #7-10
posted by Jeph! on September 23, 2003 at 19:46:22:

Paul, you claimed to have a four-week gap between SX #6-FB and 11 in which to slot SX #7, 9, and 10 -- I suggested that, because they both have full moons, that you put them at extreme opposite ends of the gap.

However, I just realized -- as I noted, SX #7 has to take place a week or more after SX #6-FB -- so it can't be placed at the VERY START of the gap.  It has to be placed at least eight days in.

Sigh.  Okay, I guess you have two options:  declare ONE of the full moons non-canon (either #7 or #9-10, depending on when in your 4-week gap the "real" full moon falls), or widen the gap to six or more weeks and let both full moons stand.

Hope things work out despite this little hiccup...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Re-read before posting ... why do I never learn?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 24, 2003 at 07:30:52:
In Reply to: Re-read before posting ... why do I never learn?
posted by Jeph! on September 23, 2003 at 19:50:49:

> Paul, you claimed to have a four-week gap between SX #6-FB and 11 in which to slot SX #7, 9, and 10 -- I suggested that, because they both have full moons, that you put them at extreme opposite ends of the gap.

> However, I just realized -- as I noted, SX #7 has to take place a week or more after SX #6-FB -- so it can't be placed at the VERY START of the gap.  It has to be placed at least eight days in.

> Sigh.  Okay, I guess you have two options:  declare ONE of the full moons non-canon (either #7 or #9-10, depending on when in your 4-week gap the "real" full moon falls), or widen the gap to six or more weeks and let both full moons stand.

> Hope things work out despite this little hiccup...

The full moon in SX 7, which occurs just over a week after SX 6 (I'm dropping the FB references here), works perfectly.  The full moon in SX 9-10, however, is about a week early than it should to make SX 11 still occur in August and the week-instead-of-month concept in SX 11-12 work.

The other thing I should add is that Nathan must appear at Havok's wedding sometime during a gap in SX 11, certainly before the execution.  I have him in UX 425 between his Colombia and Tel Aviv missions in SX 11.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Domino's recent chronology
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 24, 2003 at 19:52:10:
In Reply to: Nathan Summers' recent chronology
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 20, 2003 at 21:23:20:

Now that we're resolving Nathan Summers' recent chronology, a related chronology that needs attention would be Domino's.

I'm assuming that her current miniseries (the fourth and final issue appeared today) occurs before the end of Soldier X #12, in which Domino contacts Nathan about Weapon X.

I don't recall the Domino limited series (v2) being on anyone's "assignment" list.  Can someone provide a synopsis of each of the four issues?

--Paul

			*	*	*

referencing question
Posted by Arthur Stein on September 22, 2003 at 09:45:45:

When referencing a page in a magazine that has multiple stories...  Is the page number the actual page number of the magazine as a whole (whether page numbers are printed or not) or the page number within that specific story?

			*	*	*

Re: referencing question
Posted by SKleefeld on September 22, 2003 at 15:58:52:
In Reply to: referencing question
posted by Arthur Stein on September 22, 2003 at 09:45:45:

> When referencing a page in a magazine that has multiple stories...  Is the page number the actual page number of the magazine as a whole (whether page numbers are printed or not) or the page number within that specific story?

It's generally the page number of the story. Often, creators don't know where their story will fall in relation to others in the same book (if the book is, in fact, a collection of stories) and number it from #1. That's also why we don't count ads when numbering.

Plus, it makes it easier to reference if we're forced to use a reprint!  :)

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Now that the "Ice" storyline is over in Cap America...
Posted by Kevin  on September 22, 2003 at 10:22:36:

Well, I remember many months ago, when issue #12 of Captain America, (vol. 4) we were wondering if some of the stuff in the flashbacks was canon...with Cap being frozen in ice by the U.S. govt, and being unfrozen by Namor, shortly before being found by the Avengers...

So is that stuff still canon?  When the storyline concluded, the last half of #15 and most of #16 didn't take place in reality, but in Captain America's head.  Maybe those wierd flashbacks in #12 and #13 were part of the halucination as well?

I think it's important to note that Austen and Reiber, (the writers of that arc) are no longer on the book, nor will they return, (could it be fan backlash?)  So we may never get a definative answer as to whether the flashback story told, (mind you, it was told by the Interrogator in #12) was canon or not...

Your thoughts?

Can we just hope that Marvel goes the route of Spiderman: Chapter One, and just say the story never happened? ;-)

			*	*	*

Re: Now that the "Ice" storyline is over in Cap America...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 22, 2003 at 18:33:20:
In Reply to: Now that the "Ice" storyline is over in Cap America...
posted by Kevin  on September 22, 2003 at 10:22:36:

In the absence of any incontrovertible evidence, I would work on the assumption that all the flashbacks in this storyline are false, and the films etc seen on the page were fabrications designed to confuse him.  That would fit better with what laughably passes for the plot.

			*	*	*

Re: Now that the "Ice" storyline is over in Cap America...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 22, 2003 at 19:51:49:
In Reply to: Re: Now that the "Ice" storyline is over in Cap America...
posted by Paul O'Brien on September 22, 2003 at 18:33:20:

> In the absence of any incontrovertible evidence, I would work on the assumption that all the flashbacks in this storyline are false, and the films etc seen on the page were fabrications designed to confuse him.  That would fit better with what laughably passes for the plot.

I came away from the story with the impression that the films were faked by Dell Rusk (aka the Red Skull).  The fact that there is still confusion about this underscores the poor writing in this story, IMHO.

--Paul

			*	*	*

SPIRAL...SPITFIRE...SPORE
Posted by Arthur Stein on September 22, 2003 at 18:30:34:

new entries marked **

SPIRAL
M/CP 87/2
**UX 256 (31p2)
M/CP 89/4

SPITFIRE/LADY JACQUELINE FALSWORTH CRICHTON
INV 14 (1-22)
**M/SH3 4/4-FB (4p2-p6)   Re placement: Occurs during the early days of World War II; Spitfire herself states she was woefully inexperienced at the time the flashback occurs. There are bodies around, explosions and a uniformed medic. The first time Spitfire is shown coming into contact with Allied troops at the front is in Africa in INV 25. By then she had been in combat in occupied Poland, dealt with the Crusaders in Britain, had flown to Berlin, been captured and sentenced to death by Hitler and made good her escape. By this time she may NOT have considered herself woefully inexperienced. On the other hand the bodies dont have to be from front line combat. They could be civilian/military personnel injured/killed during the Blitz; the explosions could be German bombs falling on London.  Thats the interpretation I have gone with. INV 14 page 22 ends at dawn; page 23 starts in the afternoon. There are at least 6 hours where Jacqueline could have zipped out to help during a bombing run, and then returned. This experience with death and guilt may even have contributed to her attitude that evening when, after she has words with the Torch, she says to herself  He means so well...I was too harsh with him. 
INV 15 (7p2)  
INV 14 (23 on)

..  ..  ..  ..  ..

M/CP 89/3-FB
**CA 253
M/SH3 4/4
N 12-FB
**N 11 (27p2, 28p1)
N 12

SPORE
**W2 22-FB (11p6)
**W2 21
W2 22
W2 23

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering!

#120

			*	*	*

Ben Urich
Posted by RLG on September 23, 2003 at 15:32:02:

  Ben Urich makes an appearance in Daredevil #183, in which he gives Daredevil info on the Punisher, who has recently escaped from Ryker's Island.  His chronology should be ammended to:

BEN URICH
DD 180
ASM@15 - Punisher is put into prison (escapes in DD 182)
** DD 183 (I have this appearance occuring mid to late January, YEAR 11 - no leaves on trees)
ASM 233 (I have as April or May of YEAR 11)
ASM 234 (I have as April of May of YEAR 11)

Of course, my calandar dates could be off and Ben's appearance could fall AFTER ASM 233 & 234.  Also, "YEAR 11", is based on the FF's rocket flight in FF 1.

- RLG

			*	*	*

Question about Weapon X
Posted by Kevin  on September 24, 2003 at 20:39:24:

There's a comic out right now called Weapon X, right?  I don't read it, but I'd like to know:

In the recent Weapon Plus story arc in New X-men, that comic revealed that the Weapon X program (which is actually the Weapon Plus Program) was created by people who wanted to create supersoldiers to fight against the 'mutant menace'.  

So does this story contradict what's happening in the Weapon X comic?  Cause it's my impression that the Weapon X comic deals with the typical Weapon X figures of Sabertooth and Maverick, etc...do those characters know what's happening with Wolverine in the New X-men storyline?  I'm just asking if the two plots contradict each other, that's all...

			*	*	*

Re: Question about Weapon X
Posted by Jeph! on September 24, 2003 at 23:41:07:
In Reply to: Question about Weapon X
posted by Kevin  on September 24, 2003 at 20:39:24:

I've answered this question about nine zillion times on various X-Men message boards, so why not here too?

The two organizations are completely separate.

The "Weapon Plus Program" refers to a series of sixteen separate programs, 0-15 -- numbers 1-15 being listed in roman numeral form as I through XV.

Basically, "Weapon Plus" simply funds these other programs -- in all other respects the individual Weapon programs are (or, were) fairly separate from each other.  They occasionally ran at the same time, but generally one program succeeded the next as a better way of creating super-soldiers was developed.

The Weapon Plus program has been running since around 1940 -- "Weapon I" is, actually, Dr. Erskine's Super-Soldier Program, and produced such candidates as Protocide, Dominic Fortune, and Captain America himself.  There is some speculation that "Weapon 0" was the experimental program shown in "the Truth".  Nuke, from Daredevil, is apparently a creation of Weapon XI.

The Weapon X program -- the tenth generation of the Weapon Plus program -- produced an astounding number of super-soldiers -- most prominently, Wolverine, Sabretooth, and Maverick.

Weapons XII through XV seem to have shifted focus somewhat -- instead of using humans, animals and mutants to create super-soldiers, they now create human super-soldiers solely for the purpose of eliminating mutants -- and they only seem to produce one candidate each, in quick succession.  We've seen Weapons XII (Hunstman), XIII (Fantomex), and XV (Ultimaton) in the pages of New X-Men in the past year or so.  Speculation has it that the program's changed goals since Weapon XII have something to do with Magneto's involvement, but details are sketchy.

On the other hand, the CURRENT "Weapon X program" has nothing to do with any of that.  It's run by one man -- a mentally unbalanced man named Malcolm Colcord, who happened to be a security guard at the ORIGINAL Weapon X program, and was disfigured by a feral Wolverine as he escaped the Program.

Malcolm eventually started up a program to eliminate all mutants, and named it "Weapon X" after the old organization.  He also found the computer files of the original Weapon X program, and used the information within to give Sabretooth an adamantium skeleton similar to Wolverine's -- twice.

Malcolm recruited mutants who wanted power upgrades, and used them to round up mutants living normal lives -- and ship them off to an internment camp he called Neverland, where they were culled.  That's the sole goal of the current Weapon X program.

So, to sum up, there is NO link between the currently-defunct Weapon X program that was funded by Weapon Plus, and the current Weapon X program that currently has a title -- save that the new one was named for the old one, and has many of its computer records.

Hope that helped.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

And, to make this on-topic...
Posted by Jeph! on September 25, 2003 at 00:09:10:
In Reply to: Re: Question about Weapon X
posted by Jeph! on September 24, 2003 at 23:41:07:

Since X #145 recently told us the "real" codenames of Weapon XII and XV, and revealed Weapon I's identity *, I think the MCP should reflect those revelations.

For example -- the blue-brained giant in X #128-130, referred to as Weapon XII -- his real codename is "Huntsman" (technically, Huntsman III) -- he should be listed as such.  His REAL codename isn't "Weapon XII" any more than Wolverine's real codename is "Weapon X".

However, unless you read X #145 fairly closely, you won't know that -- and most visitors to the site will try to look him up under "Weapon XII".

I see that the MCP already has an entry for "Weapon X", reading "see, Wolverine".  I propose a similar set of entries for all of the OTHER Weapon projects that we know about, like so:

WEAPON I - see Captain America

WEAPON X - see Wolverine

WEAPON XII - see Huntsman III

WEAPON XIII - see Fantomex

WEAPON XV - see Ultimaton

That way, we can faithfully list characters like Huntsman III and Ultimaton under their REAL codenames, and still help out comic fans who are searching for the characters' appearances based on their more commonly known numeral aliases.

By the way, Huntsman III's real name is "Zona Cluster-Seven", and Fantomex's real name is "Charlie Cluster-Seven".  Apparently they were both born in the same cycle of The World that birthed them...

* X #145 establishes that Captain America was the primary creation of the Weapon I program -- according to issues of CA3, Protocide was a creation of the same program, but apparently was never designated "Weapon I" -- just as Sabretooth, Maverick, etc. were never designated "Weapon X" even though that was the program that created them.  Apparently only the top candidate at any time is given the numeral designation -- Wolverine received "X" and Cap, apparently, receieved "I" -- though I doubt he was aware of it.

X #145 also flashes up a picture of Nuke, from DD #232-233, up on the screen -- but it's unclear which Weapon project birthed him.  (Also, why isn't Nuke listed on the MCP?)  Without any information on Nuke's history, I would assume -- since he was likely created AFTER Wolverine -- that he was a product of Weapon XI.  But, WAS he created after Wolverine?  Or, like Cap, has he been around -- or been on ice -- for many years?

If someone can clue me in on Nuke's known origins, perhaps we can designate which Weapon program birthed him, and give him a Weapon designation on the MCP...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: And, to make this on-topic...
Posted by Kevin  on September 25, 2003 at 08:34:12:
In Reply to: And, to make this on-topic...
posted by Jeph! on September 25, 2003 at 00:09:10:

Thanks, Jeph, for clearing that up a little better, (I was just wondering if there was any contradictions between the two titles).

If no one else posts that info needed on Nuke I'll try and find those particular back issues in the next few days, (though there's no garentee I'll be able to find them and all...)

			*	*	*

Nuke
Posted by Peter Fabricius on September 25, 2003 at 12:05:24:
In Reply to: And, to make this on-topic...
posted by Jeph! on September 25, 2003 at 00:09:10:

> If someone can clue me in on Nuke's known origins, perhaps we can designate which Weapon program birthed him, and give him a Weapon designation on the MCP...

Ok, here goes.

Nuke is first mentioned in DD 230, but doesn't appear until DD 232.

He is also referred to as Agent Simpson, as well as being referred to as a sergeant.

His skin, bones and muscles have been partially replaced by more durable materials, and his strength and endurace comes from amphetamines.

He is given pills that control his mood, and performance. Red before combat, White after, and Blue at other times.

It is not quite clear what the blue pills do, he is only seen taking one on an airplane, before getting a beer.

It is said, in the information Captain America obtains, that Nuke is the only survivor out of 20 in the revived Project Rebirth.

This is, of course, the same project that created Cap.

No other name is given for the project. It is said, and shown, that it is run by the USArmy.

No name is given for the general running the project, he appears in DD 232 & 233.

Four other names are given, all of deceased subjects.

They are James McPherson, Michael Labash, Andrew Perlmutter and John Walsh.

Two other first names of deceased subjects can be partially seen. ...derick and ...dore.

Peter

			*	*	*

Re: Nuke and a few additions to the MCP
Posted by Peter Fabricius on September 25, 2003 at 13:13:30:
In Reply to: Nuke
posted by Peter Fabricius on September 25, 2003 at 12:05:24:

Just wanted to add this.

Nuke also appears in the flashback in Wolverine #18, this looks at first to be the same mission as in DD 232, but it is not.

The mission in DD is in Nicaragua, the mission in W2 18 is in Tierra Verde.

Also seen in this flashback are Geist, president Felix Guillermo Caridad and an unnamed USArmy colonel, the last is probably the same as in DD 232 and DD233.

Geist's appearance is already in the MCP.

I also noted that Caridad is not in the MCP
he appears in W2 18 to 22
The creature Spore is also in W2 21 flashback and in W2 21.

Peter

			*	*	*

Re: And, to make this on-topic...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 25, 2003 at 15:16:43:
In Reply to: And, to make this on-topic...
posted by Jeph! on September 25, 2003 at 00:09:10:

> Since X #145 recently told us the "real" codenames of Weapon XII and XV, and revealed Weapon I's identity *, I think the MCP should reflect those revelations.

All the information we saw in New X-Men #145 was aboard a satellite which was revealed the next issue to be a fake.  Consequently, none of it is reliable.

I'm not entirely convinced the Weapon Plus Program even EXISTS.  In fact, the only evidence for its existence is (a) the satellite, which is now known to be a fake, and (b) Fantomex's insistence that it exists (but we've been shown that he's a congenital liar).

Yes, we did see the World - but as far as I can find, nobody there ever actually referred to it as a Weapon Plus project.  I think there's a very definite possibility that all of this is heading towards the revelation that Weapon Plus doesn't exist at all.  It's all a hoax, claiming responsibility for all sorts of programmes that, in reality, were nothing to do with it at all.  Fantomex is in on the hoax.  (Remember, he makes a point of wearing a mask that blocks telepathy.)

I would, at the very least, wait until the end of the current New X-Men storyline before leaping to the conclusion that anything we saw in issue #145 was true.

			*	*	*

Re: And, to make this on-topic...
Posted by Jeph! on September 25, 2003 at 17:13:58:
In Reply to: Re: And, to make this on-topic...
posted by Paul O'Brien on September 25, 2003 at 15:16:43:

Well, there is the little matter that both Fantomex and the Weapon Plus computer records know that Wolverine's real first name is "James"...

But yeah, I agree -- we should hold off on making ASSUMPTIONS until #150.

However, the other bit -- Weapon XII and XV's real codenames -- probably CAN go into the MCP, without the need to wait.  Regardless of whether Weapon Plus is a hoax or not, those WERE the codenames and numerical designations of characters that DID exist...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: And, to make this on-topic...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 26, 2003 at 18:34:00:
In Reply to: Re: And, to make this on-topic...
posted by Jeph! on September 25, 2003 at 17:13:58:

> However, the other bit -- Weapon XII and XV's real codenames -- probably CAN go into the MCP, without the need to wait.  Regardless of whether Weapon Plus is a hoax or not, those WERE the codenames and numerical designations of characters that DID exist...

The characters exist - but does anyone other Fantomex CALL them Weapon 12 and Weapon 15?  Not that I can think of...

Remember, Fantomex is an extraordinarily unreliable source.  Even his first couple of appearances went out of their way to establish him as a total liar. 

They never called themselves Weapon 12 and Weapon 15.  Nobody else called them that, as far as I can recall.  Just Fantomex.  I wouldn't take his word on anything, as matters stand.

			*	*	*

Re: And, to make this on-topic...
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on October 01, 2003 at 15:56:50:
In Reply to: Re: And, to make this on-topic...
posted by Paul O'Brien on September 26, 2003 at 18:34:00:

> The characters exist - but does anyone other Fantomex CALL them Weapon 12 and Weapon 15?

Yes -- Ultimaton is called "Weapon Fifteen" both by one of the scientists at the beginning of #145 and by the Mysterious Guy on the Screen later on.

Could still be a scam, of course.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch

			*	*	*

Re: And, to make this on-topic...
Posted by Nightwing on December 25, 2003 at 01:13:40:
In Reply to: Re: And, to make this on-topic...
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on October 01, 2003 at 15:56:50:

> Yes -- Ultimaton is called "Weapon Fifteen" both by one of the scientists at the beginning of #145 and by the Mysterious Guy on the Screen later on.

Exactly the two cents I was about to chuck into the ring. The other thing worth making notes over is that in 145 when Fantomex is touring Cyke's around the Weapon+ station, when they're in the briefing room, one of the frame's show's Ultimaton's/Wpn.15's Chair, beside his is a chair labled: "SMAN", it's possible that there is more to the name that's cut off, I read the back posts before writting this, you guys might have mentioned his name already, but I believe he's "Weapon XIV" if you will, mainly because we know there is, at present, no one above Weapon Fifteen at present, so one would assume they would be seated in order logically, so on and so forth, although granted, one could argue it could also be a weapon "ZERO" if such a thing even exists, since there's only the Fifteen top Weapon's of they're respected project's to our knowledge, it has to be either Weapon 14 or 0 seated beside Ultimaton, because we know Weapon One is Captain America essentially, so I'd imagine there's no reason to assume or presume a Weapon Zero even exists, thus I conclude it to be XIV. I only just put this together since re reading 145 again about a half hour after finding this thread on Google and reading half the posts in this particular thread. So if I'm just chronic and off-balanced everything, whatever then, but yeah, so we MIGHT have another for the MCP.. Who knows. I havn't read any recent X books in a LONG time.. Only just starting to get back into comics in general, X-Men/X-Man/X-Force/X-Factor/etc, Batman, Nightwing, Spawn, etc.

Anywho, take care, peace out, and Merry Christmas of '03. :)

--Nightwing

			*	*	*

Re: And, to make this on-topic...
Posted by Jeph! on December 25, 2003 at 09:32:24:
In Reply to: Re: And, to make this on-topic...
posted by Nightwing on December 25, 2003 at 01:13:40:

Hey, Nightwing.  I almost missed your post thanks to all the spam choking this board.  Merry Christmas.

I'm assuming that the "SMAN" chair is the cut-off name "HUNTSMAN" -- which we learned was the code-name of Weapon Twelve.  I guess they're not sitting in numerical order...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: And, to make this on-topic...
Posted by Nightwing on December 30, 2003 at 01:32:59:
In Reply to: Re: And, to make this on-topic...
posted by Jeph! on December 25, 2003 at 09:32:24:

I would tend to agree unless by pure chance, however unlikley, that someone else has "SMAN" in the end of their name, which I suppose is potentially possible considering we havn't gotten to meet everyone to do with Weapon+ just yet.

That's the one other thing I meant to inquire apon when I first posted but it slipped my mind. What's the deal with Nightcrawler now being involved in all this? In X2, Stryker used his bio chemicals to do mind control much like what he did with Magnus and Yuriko, etc. Was Nightcrawler ever a victum of WeaponX/Weapon+, I mean, victum that is in kidnapped and did missions, etc, not nesscecarilly experimented on although I remember hearing that he was infact treated in such a way while prisoner. Etc. So I guess was just curious where he tied in officially for both the movie and comic alike and which is a more truer story to believe as a default, which I presume will probally be the comic but yeah, won't assume in advanced by much.

Thanks again Jeph for answering my questions! You take care and Merry Christmas back, and Happy New Year's in 2 days, 28 minutes, and some seconds -- as of now. :)

---Nightwing

			*	*	*

Re: And, to make this on-topic...
Posted by Jeph! on December 30, 2003 at 10:38:57:
In Reply to: Re: And, to make this on-topic...
posted by Nightwing on December 30, 2003 at 01:32:59:

> What's the deal with Nightcrawler now being involved in all this? In X2, Stryker used his bio chemicals to do mind control ... Was Nightcrawler ever a victum of WeaponX/Weapon+ ... I remember hearing that he was infact treated in such a way while prisoner.

Not in the real Marvel Universe, no.  He's never had any contact with them.

Nightcrawler was captured by Stryker and injected with mind-controlling chemicals in the "X-Men 2: Nightcrawler" movie prequel comic, though -- that's probably where the confusion comes in.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: And, to make this on-topic...
Posted by Nightwing on December 30, 2003 at 10:53:40:
In Reply to: Re: And, to make this on-topic...
posted by Jeph! on December 30, 2003 at 10:38:57:

Your as always, probally right, a buddy of mine has it I do believe, musta been where I got the idea from in the first place. lol. Heh. Oh hey, just thought of yet ANOTHER question for ya, lol, jumping all the way back to Fatal Attractions, after Magnus pulled the adamentium out of Wolvie's body/skeleton, and he mutated further, etc, and then Oz....... blah, whatever the heck his name was, stone dude who in one issue I have somewhere, had essentially rock stone variants of the main x-men characters, Logan included, etc, he had some relation to Apoclypse if I remember correctly, but anyways, what all did they end up doing to deal with Wolverine's "condition" and stuff?

Thanks,

--Nightwing

			*	*	*

Re: And, to make this on-topic...
Posted by Jeph! on December 30, 2003 at 12:27:11:
In Reply to: Re: And, to make this on-topic...
posted by Nightwing on December 30, 2003 at 10:53:40:

> thought of yet ANOTHER question for ya: Oz....... blah, whatever the heck his name was, stone dude

Ozymandias.

> what all did they end up doing to deal with Wolverine's "condition" and stuff?

Not a lot.  Wolverine eventually reverted back to human form on his own, around the time of "Operation Zero Tolerance" (specifically, he mysteriously changed back between X-Men #64/65 and Wolverine #115).  Basically, the whole devolved-Wolvie plot was written out and completely ignored.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: And, to make this on-topic...
Posted by Nightwing on January 10, 2004 at 12:47:01:
In Reply to: Re: And, to make this on-topic...
posted by Jeph! on December 30, 2003 at 12:27:11:

> > thought of yet ANOTHER question for ya: Oz....... blah, whatever the heck his name was, stone dude

> Ozymandias.

Yupp...That'd be the guy.

> > what all did they end up doing to deal with Wolverine's "condition" and stuff?

> Not a lot.  Wolverine eventually reverted back to human form on his own, around the time of "Operation Zero Tolerance" (specifically, he mysteriously changed back between X-Men #64/65 and Wolverine #115).  Basically, the whole devolved-Wolvie plot was written out and completely ignored.

Interesting approach to concluding what was probabaly a well-followed story line. lol. Oh hey, not to bombard you with questions each and every time I post a reply, but I remember browsing across a particular picture of a cover with Wolvie on it in a black costume variant of his yellow and blue costume. If you'd like me to post a URL to the pict then sure, no problems. Guess was just interested in knowing more about the costume itself.

--Nightwing

			*	*	*

Re: And, to make this on-topic...
Posted by Dimadick on September 26, 2003 at 08:48:00:
In Reply to: And, to make this on-topic...
posted by Jeph! on September 25, 2003 at 00:09:10:

> If someone can clue me in on Nuke's known origins, perhaps we can designate which Weapon program birthed him, and give him a Weapon designation on the MCP...

The appendix to the Marvel Handbook has a profile on Nuke. See:http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/darenuke.htm

According to his dialogue Nuke was a Vietnam War veteran who believed that the war was still going on and that most of his opponents were Vietnamese. The USA had withdrawn from that war since January, 1973. The war ended on April 30, 1975 when North Vietnam captured Saigon. That would be presumabely after Wolvie scaped Weapon X since he would soon join the X-Men. If Nuke was supposed to be his replacement and was active till his death in the hands of Daredevil, Weapon XI would be fine for him I suppose.

But if Steve Rogers was Weapon I and James Logan Howlett Weapon X though there would still be Weapons II-IX not identified. Any chance that those numerals might include the various subsequent Captain Americas? Captain America II/ William Naslund, Captain America III/Jeff Mace and Captain America IV/ Steve Rogers II? Were they considered super soldiers?

			*	*	*

Re: And, to make this on-topic...
Posted by Jeph! on September 26, 2003 at 12:40:19:
In Reply to: Re: And, to make this on-topic...
posted by Dimadick on September 26, 2003 at 08:48:00:

> But if Steve Rogers was Weapon I and James Logan Howlett Weapon X though there would still be Weapons II-IX not identified. Any chance that those numerals might include the various subsequent Captain Americas?

If Fantomex is telling the truth, then:

Weapons II-III were animals

Weapons IV-VI used "various ethnic minorities"

and Weapons VI-X (and presumably XI) used captured mutants.

Since experience has shown us that the Weapon X Project churned out multiple super-soldiers over a relatively lengthy period of time, I'm tempted to assume that Weapon I - aka Project Rebirth - did the same.

All the Caps you mention may have been a product of the SAME Weapon I project -- and, honestly, Nuke might have been, as well -- as he doesn't seem to be an "animal, ethnic minority, or mutant".

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Magneto and the Red Skull in Acts of Vengeance - CA #367
Posted by Jeph! on September 25, 2003 at 19:15:29:

Currently, the MCP lists CA #367  which features Magneto kidnapping the Red Skull and imprisoning him for his part in the Holocaust  after the resolution of the "Acts of Vengeance" affair in AWC #55.

This was apparently done to resolve the continuity error that the Skull shows up, alive and well, in A #313 and AWC #55  even though it means ignoring dialogue in CA #367 that establishes that the "Acts of Vengeance" are still ongoing, and that the Skull knows neither the identity of his lackey, nor that "Dr. Doom" was in fact a Doombot  dialogue which places CA #367 *before* A #313, where the Doombot was exposed, and AWC #55, where the AoV wrap up and the lackey is exposed as Loki.

However, Avengers Annual #19 presents an alternate solution.  In the third story, penned by Mark Gruenwald, Captain America, Thor and the Vision sift through the events of AoV, trying to make some sense of them  and, in an added flashback to the end of AWC #55, the Vision notes how he  passing intangibly through the fleeing Red Skull  realized that "the Skull" was, in fact, ALSO a robot, posing as the true Skull.

This is pretty clearly meant to be Gruenwald's explanation for how the Skull appeared to be with the AoV group after the point where he was kidnapped.  The clear implication is that, after Magneto disposed of the Skull, he set up a replacement from one of the Skull automatons we saw in CA #367  and it was this automaton that appeared in later issues of the AoV crossover.

By Captain America's recitation of events in A@19/3, the Wizard's attack in A #313 took place BEFORE his trip to Washington DC in CA #367  however, according to the Skull's thoughts in CA #367, he does not yet know that Doom is an impostor  and Doom was discovered to be a robot in the closing pages of A #313.  (Indeed, pp.3-5 of AWC #55 seem to pick up directly from that scene, with the villains examining the ruined Doombot.)

My best explanation for where to place CA #367 is between pp.20-21 of A #313  after the Wizard's attack and capture, but before his interrogation  as the interrogation scene takes place at the same moment as the Doombot's breakdown.

Now, Magneto's appearances in A #313 pp.13-14 flow directly into his appearance in AWC #55  however, he only appears  in AWC #55 on pp.1-2, in a scene relatively detached from the rest of the issue's events.  I recommend moving that scene back to occur immediately after Magneto's scenes in A #313, placing Magneto's appearances there *before* his appearance in CA #367.  (In fact, in AWC #56, when Magneto makes his entrance, Wanda asks if his "business elsewhere" was finished  a clear reference that he did indeed leave her side between AWC #55 and 56.)

My proposed changes would yield a final result of:

A #313 pp.1-13  the Wizard attacks, Magneto lifts Agatha Harkness' house into orbit.
AWC #55 pp.1-2  Magneto attempts to break through Wanda's delirium.
A #313 pp.14-20  the Wizard is defeated and captured.
CA #367  Magneto imprisons the Skull, Cap travels to DC.
A #313 pp.21-22  Cap returns to NYC for the Wizard's interrogation; the Doombot breaks down.  (The Skull on these pages must now be a robot.)
AWC #55 pp.3-17  the rest of the cabal examine the Doombot, the Wizard escapes, Loki reveals his identity, the Avengers find Loki, and the battle begins.
** Here we should add the flashbacks from A@19/3 (p.10 panels 2-6), of the discovery of the robot Skull. **
AWC #55 pp.18-22  Thor defeats Loki and the Acts of Vengeance are over. 

Does this raise any problems I've overlooked?  Input would be welcome.

Also, in my research, I came across some other errors in the MCP.

- Magneto and the Skull both appear in WOSM #61, as part of the AoV cabal, but Magneto's listing has it after AWC #55, whereas the Skull's listing places it before A #313.  The Skull's version is correct, as this occurs before the Wizard's capture in A #313  Magneto's listing should be amended.

- Quicksilver is listed as appearing in A@19 and A@19/5.  Neither of these is correct  he only appears in A@19/4, not either of the other stories.  A@19/4 appears to take place the same day as A@19, so there's no need to amend the *placement* of the listing  just to correct the two erroneous stories down to one correct one.

- And, just to verify what someone else posted recently, as far as I can tell, Magneto does NOT appear in AWC #59.

-Jeph!

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Re: Magneto and the Red Skull in Acts of Vengeance - CA #367
Posted by David Hall on September 26, 2003 at 18:36:53:
In Reply to: Magneto and the Red Skull in Acts of Vengeance - CA #367
posted by Jeph! on September 25, 2003 at 19:15:29:

Thatis very good.  I'm trying to make sense of Magneto in Acts of vengenace, this helps a lot.

Would you be interested in taking a look at Magneto's early apps. in AofV (pre cap 367?)

Why is Magneto's App. in UX 253 listed as a flashback?  The only app. he makes in this issue, is with Banshee, which flows directly into a scene with Banshee and Moira, where they are talking about CURRENT events, so it is clearly NOT a flashback.

Dave

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Re: Magneto and the Red Skull in Acts of Vengeance - CA #367
Posted by Jeph! on September 26, 2003 at 20:28:48:
In Reply to: Re: Magneto and the Red Skull in Acts of Vengeance - CA #367
posted by David Hall on September 26, 2003 at 18:36:53:

> Thatis very good.  I'm trying to make sense of Magneto in Acts of vengenace, this helps a lot.

Thanks!

> Would you be interested in taking a look at Magneto's early apps. in AofV (pre cap 367?)

I already have a truckload of overdue MCP stuff that I'm slowly inching forward on ... but, since this stuff is fresh in my mind right now -- what parts did you want me to check out?

> Why is Magneto's App. in UX 253 listed as a flashback?  The only app. he makes in this issue, is with Banshee, which flows directly into a scene with Banshee and Moira, where they are talking about CURRENT events, so it is clearly NOT a flashback.

Good catch.  That's the bit that I meant to post, but forgot about last night.  Thanks for catching it!

-Jeph!

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Quicksilver in WCA2 #33
Posted by Jeph! on September 25, 2003 at 22:12:27:

The MCP says that Quicksilver appears in WCA2 #33 -- but I don't see him.  I read the whole story arc, too, #33-36, but nothing in it gave me any clue that he appeared in #33.

So - was he in disguise?  Was he retconned in in a future tale?  Or is the MCP mistaken?

Anyone know more?

-Jeph!

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Re: Quicksilver in WCA2 #33
Posted by RLG on September 27, 2003 at 20:18:46:
In Reply to: Quicksilver in WCA2 #33
posted by Jeph! on September 25, 2003 at 22:12:27:

Jeph, 

      After reviewing WCA2 #33, I think a case could be made that Quicksilver appears behind the scenes, due to his involvement with the Vision and Wanda's imprisonment in Hungary.  He admits to this fact in the following issue.

       As for an actual appearance, I could not see him either (of course, he is VERY fast...)  and I'm not aware of any storyline that comes to mind that somehow places him into WCA2 #33.

- RLG

			*	*	*

SPOT...SPYMASTER...OBADIAH STANE
Posted by Arthur Stein on September 26, 2003 at 16:27:39:

new entries marked **

SPOT/
(aka Jonathon Ohnn PPTSS 99 (2p2)
**PPTSS 98
**PPTSS 99
**PPTSS 100
PPTSS 245
PPTSS 246

SPYMASTER/"JAKE JORDAN"
IM 35
((**DD 63 - typo, this should read DD 73)
**IM 36 (6p2-p3, 7p4-p6)
IM 113-BTS
IM 115-BTS
IM 116
IM 117
**IM 126
IM 127
**IM 137   impersonating Ted Calloway
IM 138

STANE, OBADIAH
**IM 198-FB   There are actually three separate flashbacks of Stanes past:  (2p5-3p7), (7p5-8p5) and  (12p1-p4)
IM 163

..  ..  ..  ..  ..

IM 198 (1-21)
**IM 203-FB   -  (1) Shows the mind transference between Bethany Cabe and Madame Masque
IM 198 (22 on)

Similarly
CABE, BETHANY
IM 198 (1-21)
**IM 203-FB   
IM 198 (22 on)

MADAME MASQUE/GIULIETTA KRISTINA NEFARIA/"WHITNEY FROST"/BIG M/"KRISSY LONGFELLOW"
IM 198 (1-21)
**IM 203-FB   
IM 198 (22 on)

**ATLANTA,  DR. THERON (As a rule, I do not post anything for characters not already in the MCP but this just followed so naturally I felt compelled to stick it in)

**IM 198 
**IM 203-FB   
**IM 200
**IM 201
**IM 204

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

#121

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Excalibur -1
Posted by David Hall on September 27, 2003 at 01:53:10:

Can someone explain why Excalibur -1 is listed in Phoenix II's and Kitty's and Megan's listing after Xcal 8?  Excal -1 is a flashback issue with Nightcrawler and Amanda which occurs before Kurt even joins the X-Men.  No Phoenix's or Kittys or Meggan in this one! Not even 1 panel.  (And for that matter, it's in Nightcraler's chronology in two places, one is correct, the other (after xcal 8 is not.)

			*	*	*

Ancient Shi'ar
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on September 28, 2003 at 08:17:12:
Has anything been revealed about the ancient history of the Shi'ar?

I'm trying to determine an approximate time for the ancient Guardians of the Galaxy from the pages of Thunderbolts based on Robert Wicks's timeline (http://www.geocities.com/ratmmjess/wicksint.html) and am currently thinking somewhere between 500,000-100,000 BCE.

The Shi'ar in the story still had prominent feathers, not unlike Deathbird.

- SK

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Not-So-Ancient Shi'ar
Posted by Don Campbell on September 29, 2003 at 15:39:19:
In Reply to: Ancient Shi'ar
posted by StAkAr Karnak on September 28, 2003 at 08:17:12:

I can only recall three bits of information about the past of the Shi'ar race/empire but all of the Shi'ar in those stories were like "modern-day" Shi'ar.  Just for the record, those bits are as follows:

1) ROM ANNUAL #4 - Gladiator, leader of the Shi'ar Imperial Guard, tells Rom that the Shi'ar were once threatened by a mighty enemy that would have wiped them out and that it was only by uniting with other races (by force if necessary)that the Shi'ar survived.

2) AVENGERS #378 & 379 - Deathcry tells the Avengers how, when the Shi'ar Empire was still "very young", they encountered a cruel and evil race called the Mephistoids who were striving to build their own interstellar empire.  When Deathcry met Admiral T'kyll Alabar, a hero from that war who had been placed in suspended animation, and he asked how long he'd been asleep, she told him that it had been "near twelve-hundred years."  Of course, she probably meant 1200 Shi'ar years which are certainly not the same as Earth years.  Also, it was never established whether or not the Mephistoids (who were in actuality no more "cruel and evil" than the Shi'ar) were the enemy mentioned by Gladiator.

3) In the STARJAMMERS Limited Series, there were some references to the Shi'ar gods, Sharra and Krythri, and the fact that they had been forced to marry each other for their mutual benefit but not much else was revealed (including whether or not those gods ever really existed).

> The Shi'ar in the story still had prominent feathers, not unlike Deathbird.

It's interesting to note that, over the years, there have been a number of characters identified as being Shi'ar even though they didn't look like Lilandra.  The simplest explanation is that these beings are actually citizens/subjects of the Shi'ar Empire and not members of the Shi'ar race itself but so far Marvel hasn't bothered to explain this.  Three examples that come to mind are Cerise II (from Excalibur), Raza Longknife (of the Starjammers) and Deathcry (from Avengers).  These three look very unlike "normal" Shi'ars and also from each other, yet the stories in which they appear persist in identifing them as members of the Shi'ar race.  Raza is the lucky exception.  For years he was described as being a "Shi'ar cyborg" until the STARJAMMERS LS finally established that that was because the Shi'ar took him, the last of his race, and used their technology to make him into a cyborg.  Sadly, nobody has bothered to do the same for Cerise II and Deathcry, both of whom look just as unlike Lilandra as Raza does.

Don Campbell

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Daredevil's appearance in THOR #233
Posted by RLG on September 28, 2003 at 14:01:50:

       I believe that Daredevil's appearance in Thor #233 is in the wrong place in his chronology.  Currently, it is placed between Daredevil #139 & Defenders #40.  Comparing this placement with the other characters in Thor #233, Daredevil chronology should be:

DAREDEVIL
DD 119
COH 2 - appears with Black Widow
T 233 - December (Paul B's calendar)
DD 120 - New Year's eve story

     Also in Thor #233, Loki imprisons various super-heroes (Daredevil, Spider-Man, etc.) in individual force fields so they cannot help against his oncoming invasion of Midgard*.  At the same time, Loki uses his force fields to imprison the Avengers Mansion, trapping Iron Man and Firelord inside. 

     Loki ALSO traps the Baxter Building inside a force field.  Although, the FF do not appear or are directly mentioned in the story, can a case be made that they are, in fact, trapped inside the Baxter Building, thus preventing them from assisting Thor and the US Army against Loki's forces?

     The only counter argument I can come up with would be that the FF are imprisoned elsewhere and Loki has sealed off the Baxter Building not to keep them IN, but to keep everyone else OUT.  However, if you take that route (keeping in mind the assumption that ALL super-heroes are trapped inside personal force fields; Loki even trapped the Hulk who was in California), then you would have to believe that Loki is trying to prevent either Thor or the US Army from grabbing one of Reed's "saved at the last minute" weapons.  

     I personally can't see Thor behaving this way.  A case could be made that the US Army might try this, but Reed's inventions always seem be above most people's comprehension.  By the time the military scientists discovered what the gadget did and how it worked, Loki's invasion would be complete.

     If you do decide to include the FF in the issue as a behind-the-scenes appearance, here is where it would occur (keeping in mind that the Invisible Girl had been temporarily replaced by Medusa during this time):

MR.FANTASTIC, HUMAN TORCH II, THING, & MEDUSA

GSFF 4
T 233 (all BTS)
M/TIO 8
- RLG

* Earth (I couldn't resist!)

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Re: Daredevil's appearance in THOR #233
Posted by Administrator on September 29, 2003 at 01:26:37:
In Reply to: Daredevil's appearance in THOR #233
posted by RLG on September 28, 2003 at 14:01:50:

>      Loki ALSO traps the Baxter Building inside a force field.  Although, the FF do not appear or are directly mentioned in the story, can a case be made that they are, in fact, trapped inside the Baxter Building, thus preventing them from assisting Thor and the US Army against Loki's forces?

Here's my problem with doing this for individual members of groups: do we know which members of the FF were in the Baxter Building, at the time?

			*	*	*

FF appearances in SHE-HULK GRAPHIC NOVEL
Posted by RLG on September 28, 2003 at 14:13:49:

  In Marvel Graphic Novel #18, the only FF member (other than the She-Hulk) to appear is Mr.Fantastic.  Three days after her and Wyatt Wingfoot's 'adventure' aboard the SHIELD Helicarrier, Reed gives She-Hulk the news can no londer revert back to her human form. 

 The Human Torch and the Invisible Woman do not appear.

- RLG

			*	*	*

MARVEL GRAPHIC NOVEL #27: EMPEROR DOOM
Posted by RLG on September 28, 2003 at 18:24:53:

  Did Dr.Doom take over the world using the Purple   Man's power DURING the Beyonder's stay on Earth in SWII?  With Tony's red & silver armor (seen in M/GN #27) debuting AFTER the Beyonder's arrival, I realize that I couldn't happen before.  But what about after?  

I know that these graphic novels can be continuity problems, but it seems to me that such a take-over by Doom would be odd during the Beyonder's stay; he would doubtless take the opportunity to try to grab the Beyonder's power.  What about placing the story shortly after the aftermath of SWII?  If it helps, the story indicates that Dr.Doom had control over the Earth for at least a month. 

 (Of course, in a perfect world, he would have taken the opportunity to kill off Kristoff no matter where you place the story!)

- RLG

			*	*	*

Call of Duty chronology
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 29, 2003 at 06:50:36:

Can anyone help me complete this Call of Duty chronology so I can assign calendar dates to the scenes?

I'm missing several issues (Call #1-3, Brotherhood #1, Precinct #4, maybe others of which I'm not aware), so I've been having trouble nailing dates down for the whole story.

I'd appreciate any help that my fellow chronologists can provide.  (Once this is settled and the whole Spidey calendar is revised -- more later -- the newest edition of the calendar will be available.)

CALL OF DUTY #1 (1-9p6)
One day.  Police sergeant Frank Gunzer enters a hostage situation in which a man kills his daughter and shoots Gunzers partner Sammy before being killed by backup cops.  Gunz then sees a blond girl who speaks an ominous message of death before disappearing.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #1 (1-19)
The same night as COD 1 (1-9).  While fighting a fire, fireman James MacDonald sees the blond girl, who gives the same ominous message of death before mysteriously vanishing again.  The injured MacDonald is taken from the scene in an ambulance with EMT Jennifer Montez, but the ambulance encounters a car wreck.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #1 (20-21p3) ~ CALL OF DUTY #1 (9p7-10)
The same night as COD:B 1 (1-19).  Montez encounters the blond girl and her disappearing act at the car wreck.  Gunz shows up and they start to compare notes with MacDonald.  This segment is noted in COD:W 1 as having occurred the other day.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #1 (21p4-27p2)
The same night as COD:B 1 (20-21).  At the hospital, Montez, MacDonald, and Gunz compare notes about the blond girl.  9-11" is referenced in a scene with MacDonald and fellow firefighter Mick.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #1 (27p3-29)
The day after COD:B 1 (21-27).  MacDonald is placed off duty for seven days and he watches his brothers go out on a call.  Green trees in New York.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #1 (30-36)
One day, seven days (a week) after COD:B 1 (27-29).  MacDonald and company are called to a fire in a crack house.  Green grass and trees in New York.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #2
The same day as COD:B 1 (30-36).  Firemen Meat and Berelli encounter the blond girl in the burning crack house.  Montez arrives on the scene and finds out about the sighting.  Fireman Newmeier is badly burned.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #1 (1-11)
One day, long enough after COD:P 1 (1-9) for Sammy to recover from his gunshot wound.  Gunz and Sammy try to nail a drug trafficking ring and Gunz visits his father at a nursing home.  Green grass and trees on Long Island.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #1 (12-22)
Probably the day after COD:P 1 (1-11).  Gunz is not even officially a detective until next week.  Gunz is woken from a dream about the blond girl to report to the Knox Building, out of which a drug dealer ran, ablaze.  Gunz brother Joey, a priest, talks about quitting the priesthood with Gunz wife, Matty, at Coney Island Amusement Park, which is open and where we see green grass and trees.  That night at his church, Joey sees the blond girl, then is saved by Gunz from an attack by drug dealers who were using the church as a communication point.  Joey and Gunz tell each other about their encounters with the blond girl.  Full moon.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #2 (1-7)
Probably early the morning after COD:P 1 (12-22).  Gunz has a nightmare and goes out, only to see the blond girl, who leads him to a cemetery, where he is found by Sammy.  Presumably later that morning, Gunz sees a psychiatrist about the cemetery and the girl.  Probably later that day, Gunz captain gives him two weeks leave.  Full moon and rain.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #2 (8-22)
Probably the day after COD:P 2 (1-7).  While on leave, Gunz is taken by Matty and Joey to Big Bear Recreational Park, where we see green grass and trees.  At a carnival there, one of dealer Checkers Freemans goons tries to kill Gunz and Joey nails the would-be assassin.  Joey tells Matty that hes had a thing for her and that hes quitting the priesthood.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #3 (1-4)
Probably early the morning after COD:P 2 (8-22).  Matty has a dream about Joey.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #3 (5-8)
The same day as COD:P 3 (1-4).  Its almost five and raining in Brooklyn when Gunz fights a brute in a bar and calls Matty to ask her to check on Joey.  Gunz promotion is scheduled for next week.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #1 (1-17p2)
The same day as COD:P 3 (5-8).  COD 1 (9-10) is referred to as having occurred the other day.  Montez and partner Randy arrive on the scene of a shooting.  Gunz is on the scene too, and he tells Montez that Joey saw the blond girl a couple days ago (in COD:P 1 (12-22).  The blond girl appears again, says her name is Savannah, warns about a coming disaster at the Knox Building, and disappears.  The EMTs take a victim to the hospital.  Spidey makes a cameo.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #3 (1-2)
The same day as COD:W 1 (1-17).  Savannah shows up in Newmeiers hospital room.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #3 (9p2-17)
The same day as COD:W 3-FB.  It is a year after 9-11.  Its after six, and MacDonald and crew take the truck out to get groceries and they meet a living Savannah and her family.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #3 (9-21p4)
The same day as COD:B 3 (9-17).  Its six-thirty.  Matty discovers that Joey retired from the church yesterday and she goes to Joeys place, only to discover the depth of his love for her.  Gunz is shot when he and Sammy infiltrate Checkers place to tell him to back off.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #1 (17p3-18)
The same day as COD:P 3 (9-21).  Montez and Randy meet up with Said, another ambulance driver.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #1 (19p1) ~ CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #3 (18p1)
The same day as COD:W 1 (17-18).  Saids ambulance explodes.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #3 (18p2-18p7)
The same day as COD:B 3 (18p1).  MacDonald and crew respond to the explosion and Savannah waves goodbye.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #1 (19p2-20p2)
The same day as COD:W 1 (18p2-18p7).  Montez and Randy rush to help Said.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #1 (20p3-20p4) ~ CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #3 (19p1-19p2)
The same day as COD:W 1 (19-20).  Montez and Randy check Said and see whats happened.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #1 (21)
The same day as COD:W 1 (20p3-20p4).  Montez and Randy face an animated, burning corpse.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #2 (1-3p1)
The same day as COD:W 1 (21).  The burning corpse poses a threat.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #3 (19p3-20)
The same day as COD:W 2 (1-3).   MacDonald and crew arrive at the scene of the burning corpse.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #2 (3p2-21)
The same day as COD:B 3 (19-20).  The burning corpse kills Randy and makes off with the ambulance, and MacDonald and Mick jump on board to stop him.  After making the ambulance crash, the firemen see the burning man heading to the Knox Building, where Savannah, who appears to Montez, says MacDonald will die today, Friday, August 12.  The day and date combination doesnt make sense, given that this story is supposed to occur a year after 9-11, which occurred on a Tuesday; so either the day or date can be considered a correct reference, but not both.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #3  FB
The same day as COD:W 2 (3-21).  Two hours before COD:W 3, Randys animated corpse leaves the hospital morgue.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #4 (1-5p4)
The same night as COD:W 3-FB.  Montez calls MacDonald and tells him not to go to the Knox Building, but the burning corpse heads there.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #3 (21p5-22)
The same night as COD:B 4 (1-5).  Despite his injury, Gunz checks on the Knox Building with Sammy and encounters the burning corpse.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #4 (1-x)
The same night as COD:P 3 (21-22).

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #4 (5p5-23)
The same night as COD:P 4 (1-x).  MacDonald approaches the Knox Building, only to see the burning man run out the front door, pursued by Gunz, and get nailed by a truck.  Savannah appears to Montez and the firemen racing for the Knox Building, and she melds her ghostly form with Montez to give her a frightening vision of the future.  Gunz heads up to the sixteenth floor of the Knox Building, and Montez catches up to MacDonald in front of the building, only to witness a man combust.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #5
The same night as COD:B 4 (5-23).

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #4
The same night as COD:B 5.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #3
The same night as COD:P 4.  Zombie Randy commandeers the crashed ambulance and drives it into the Knox Building, where MacDonald brings him down.  Fire breaks out on the upper floors (presumably because of Gunz and the burning corpse in COD:P 4), then the burning corpse falls out of the building.  MacDonald goes up to deal with the fire, despite the warnings of Montez, who then calls her husband to tell him she loves him before going up after MacDonald.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #4
The same night as COD:W 3.  Montez husband hires a helicopter pilot to fly him to the Knox Building, where Montez is saved from a zombie attack by a woman with whom she heads to the roof, where a bunch of biotoxin canisters pose a grave threat.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #6
The same night as COD:W 4.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #5
The same night as COD:B 6.  Matty and Joey arrive at the Knox Building and go in after Gunz.  Gunz and Joey end up saving Matty and escape from the building.  Gunz leaves the scene with Maddy in an ambulance.  Gunz notes that hes still Sergeant until Friday, an indication that the reference to it being August 12" today in COD:W 2 (3-21) is probably correct, while the Friday is not.

THE CALL #1
Details?

THE CALL #2
Details?

THE CALL #3
Details?

THE CALL #4
The same day as CALL 3.  Gunz dies.  Aided by Nick Fury and SHIELD, Montez, MacDonald, Mick, and Lawrence stop Halidons plan of terror.  The latter two are killed in the process but Montez and MacDonald revert to normal.  MacDonald explains that Halidon was supposed to attack New York City on the anniversary of 9-11, capping off the attack by blowing up the Statue of Liberty with off-shore missles, but that hes expected to move up his timetable  this means that this story occurs before September 11.  Green grass and trees in New York.

			*	*	*

Alternative recent X-Men chronology
Posted by Harrison on September 29, 2003 at 21:34:42:

I've been looking over the chronological analysis of the last year's worth of X-Men titles.  I'd like to offer a different posible solution.  For the record, I have only concerned myself with the three main X-Titles (Uncanny, New and Xtreme), and cannot come close to the amount of detail provided by Paul Bourcier, based on Jeph's proposed gap in New X-Men 138.  This is not an attempt to refute or argue with that interpretation.  There are, however, two main points which I think track awkwardly in that analysis.  Cramming all those Uncanny stories into the gap in 138 feels forced and unnecessary to me, and the Jean-goes-to-India-twice model is similarly cumbersome.  I have outlined below an interpretation which obviates both of those solutions, in which I can find no obvious continutity flaw.  I encourage you all to find one for me, if it exists.

First, the only absolute certainties I could find are as follows:

1) Uncanny 410 must take place after New 131 (not 133 as Jeph stated), for the reason of Warren's skin color.

2) Uncanny 416 must take place after New 132, to allow for Polaris to return from Genosha.

3) Uncanny 422 must take place after New 138, as the riot is mentioned in past tense.

4) New 146 must take place after Uncanny 434, as Xorn could not have made his startling announcement before the Draco story in which he appears.

All other considerations are entirely subjective.  The main concerns appear to center around Scott and Jean, who are the only two characters to regularly appear in both books (apart from Wolverine), and whose behavior towards each other is in a state of flux.

I propose that a case can be made for a gap between New 141 and 142.  The presumption on this board appears to be that those two issues continue almost seemlessly.  In fact, there is evidence in 142 that some time has elapsed since the end of 141.  Wolverine tells Scott that Emma was shot and Scott's only response is that he can't believe they think he did it.  That he does not ask whether Emma survived means that either he doesn't care (unlikely) or he already knows.  Taken in this context, Wolverine's remarks sound like he's telling Scott something they both already know, not bringing him news.  The reference to the murder attempt being "last month" may indeed be accurate.

So here's my interpretation: Scott storms off right before Emma is shot.  He sulks for a while, then returns, shortly after New 141.  He learns that Emma was shot, but survived, and that he is a suspect.  This puts him in a disagreeable frame of mind, which carries into his work and relationships.  Bishop does not have any direct evidence linking Scott to the shooting (and how could he?  We all know Scott didn't do it), so the shooting goes -- like so many real crimes -- unsolved.  This now allows for several Scott and Jean appearances in Uncanny, during which they seem to be on good terms, but not really all that good.  Scott's behavior towards other members of the team is cold and abrasive (note especially Nightcrawler and Juggernaut).  We never see him show Jean any true affection.  In short, he's still sulking.  When we catch up with him in New 142, he's out drinking alone, because that's the kind of thing he does now, and deciding to leave the X-Men once and for all.

Issue chronolgy for this scenario breaks down as follows:

New 128-131 (continuity before this seems pretty clear)
Uncanny 410-413
Xtreme X-Pose 1-2
Uncanny 414-415
Xtreme 20-23 (I bumped this back to place it before Emma is shot -- she seems fine here, not recovering as she is in New -- and pre-riot, as we see several students, and no evidence of turmoil in the school)
New 132-133 (Thunderbird appears here after leaving Xtreme, but this poses no obvious problems -- he's taking a break from his search for Slipstream)
Uncanny 416-420 (this would be under a "meanwhile..." banner, as Jean is still in India during this story)
New 134-141 (no break is necessary in here anymore)
Unlimited 44 (placed here only because Jean is now back from India -- I find no reason to place it pre-riot)
Uncanny 421-426
Exiles 28-30
Uncanny 427-434 (all these stories are now placed after the murder attempt, with grouchy, grouchy Scott)
Xtreme 24-35 (presumably, these are all pre-Xorn-shocker)
New 142-150 (there is no room for a break of any sort in here)

Again, with apologies to Paul Bourcier, I do not presume to offer more details.  Obviously, there will be chronological overlap among stories that do not feature all the same characters.  My intent is simply to offer a mean progression, and suggested reading order (which is ultimately the point of any chronological analysis).

Are there any objective (by which I mean, other than, "I don't think Scott would act like that," or similar complaints) continuity errors here?  Can anyone point to a plot point or event that must happen in a different order than what I have suggested?  If you can find one, please let me know.  I looked, really hard.

I intend to reread all the above books, in that order, and test the flow.  I don't expect to do that at least until all the books I mentioned are published!  Once I do, if I find a glitch, I'll post it.

			*	*	*

Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
Posted by Jeph! on September 30, 2003 at 12:14:25:
In Reply to: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
posted by Harrison on September 29, 2003 at 21:34:42:

Bah.  I've revisited this portion of X-chronology it's making my eyes bleed and I'm forgetting details.  I tried to objectively review this and I can't.

Can Scott return to the mansion between X #141 and #142?  Likely we'll have to wait until X #150 is published to get more clues -- but to me, that's just as unweildly, story-wise, as the gap in #138.

If you JUST read "New X-Men", Jean is away from the mansion from #128-138, and doesn't EVER return home.  She goes from Paris to Genosha to India to Hong Kong without ever coming back to the mansion  clearly to build tension in the Jean/Scott relationship.  However, she keeps popping up in Uncanny, Unlimited, Mystique, and so on, so clearly we have to create some gaps SOMEwhere.

Your proposed chronology not only interrupts JEAN'S world tour, it interrupts the Professor's -- placing a gap between X #131-132 brings the Professor home from his X-Corp publicity trip for an extended period of time.

Also, one of Sabra's lines in #132 implies that #131 and #132 take place on the same weekend -- meaning that there's no room for a gap there.

Is anything WRONG with placing UX #410-415 after X #133?  I don't see the need for that particular change.

There are other problems with your suggestions -- creating a large gap between UX #420-421, in which to fit the events of X #134-141, also means that Havok is out of his coma for a LONG time before anyone -- even his crazy girlfriend -- bothers to welcome him home and let him know what's been going on.

Also, your placing Uncanny #421-434, Exiles #28-30, and Unlimited #44(-45) after X #141 means that they're all taking place during the time the school is closed for summer break.  That's not SUCH a big deal, because NM2 establishes that some students have remained at the school over the break -- but it certainly takes the steam out of issues like UX #422, where Alpha Flight shows up to take away all the students, and the defeated, dejected professor of X #138, who has decided to step down as headmaster, is nowhere to be seen in Uncanny #421-434.

Again -- I think we'll need to wait and see -- but I think that gaps between #133-134 and inside #138 are much more viable than gaps between #131-132 and #141-142.

By the way, I agree with you about placing XX #20-23 pre-Riot, based on the order in which Cannonball reads the news stories in XX #24 -- I'm not sure why Paul bumped it up to after the riot, except to make that one fershlugginer "springtime" line be accurate, but it doesn't read so well that way...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
Posted by Harrison on September 30, 2003 at 16:22:38:
In Reply to: Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
posted by Jeph! on September 30, 2003 at 12:14:25:

> Is anything WRONG with placing UX #410-415 after X #133?  I don't see the need for that particular change.

You're right, of course.  That was just plain sloppy.  My list should start with New X-Men 128-133, then proceed as before.

Some of your other points are well taken, but not enough to sway me.  Like I said, I'm not here to pick a fight.  My chronology has some awkward leaps, but none as awkward to me personally as cramming all that stuff into New 138, and having Jean take two trips.  Those solutions seem seriously contrary to Grant Morrison's intent in those stories, and I feel like it's worth pushing some other things around to preserve them as they were written.  Mind you, the best solution would be for Morrison, Austen and Claremont to get together and *communicate* once in a while.  This is the biggest continuity cluster f*** I've seen in years.  But, we all magange these crises the best we can.  ;-)

			*	*	*

Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
Posted by Jeph! on September 30, 2003 at 20:25:56:
In Reply to: Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
posted by Harrison on September 30, 2003 at 16:22:38:

> My chronology has some awkward leaps, but none as awkward to me personally as ... having Jean take two trips.

In BOTH versions of the chronology, we've broken up Jean's SINGLE TRIP -- from X #128-138 -- into more than one.  This is contrary to Morrison's intent.

(And since both of us have split Jean's one trip into two [between X #133-134], what's wrong with splitting it again into three [during X #138]?)

You propose that Scott RETURN TO THE MANSION between #141 and #142 -- surely this too is contrary to Morrison's intent.

And could you elaborate on some of my points?  The one about Havok is fairly major -- he wakes up from his coma in UX #420, and is joyfully reunited with his friends and family in UX #421 -- yet you have all of X #134-141 crammed in-between the two issues.  This doesn't work.

Paul and I debated this exact problem several months back, and created a gap in UX #421 -- on p.21, between panels 1-2.  This way, the events in UX #421 that directly follow #420 can fit BEFORE the Riot, and the events of #421 that lead directly into #422 can occur AFTER the Riot.

We have very good reasons for doing everything we've done -- and although I've suggested to Paul that we may need to create a smallish gap between #141-142, to accomodate issues of "New Mutants" v2 that occur during summer break (post-X #138) but before Prof. X loses his legs again (pre-X #146) -- I think that Morrison's fairly clear intent is that Scott DOES NOT return to the mansion after he runs off in #139 -- please note how, in #146, as soon as Prof. X contacts him, Scott immediately apologizes about "running off the way he did", which fairly clearly implies that he HASN'T been home since #139.

Let's wait until #150 comes out to get a look at the bigger picture -- but until them, for the most part I'm sticking with what Paul and I have developed.  We've been over it from 9000 different agnles and it seems to cover most of the necessary bases.

> This is the biggest continuity cluster f*** I've seen in years.

Haven't been around here that long, have you?  ::cough::KangWar::cough::

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
Posted by Harrison on October 01, 2003 at 14:14:18:
In Reply to: Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
posted by Jeph! on September 30, 2003 at 20:25:56:

> > My chronology has some awkward leaps, but none as awkward to me personally as ... having Jean take two trips.

> In BOTH versions of the chronology, we've broken up Jean's SINGLE TRIP -- from X #128-138 -- into more than one.  This is contrary to Morrison's intent.

> (And since both of us have split Jean's one trip into two [between X #133-134], what's wrong with splitting it again into three [during X #138]?)

Not so.  The "break" between 133 and 134 in my chronology doesn't interrupt Jean's trip, as she doesn't appear in any of the books I placed in there.

> You propose that Scott RETURN TO THE MANSION between #141 and #142 -- surely this too is contrary to Morrison's intent.

I agree.  Again, this comes down to opinion about which sacrifice to make.  To me (totally subjectively) this one is less jarring.

> And could you elaborate on some of my points?  The one about Havok is fairly major -- he wakes up from his coma in UX #420, and is joyfully reunited with his friends and family in UX #421 -- yet you have all of X #134-141 crammed in-between the two issues.  This doesn't work.

The amount of time elapsed during 134-141 is only a few days, during which many of the main characters are occupied or absent.  Again, I agree this is not super-smooth, but it's not impossible to surmise that Alex was in no condition during that period for big news.  I did that find that point compelling, but not as critically as you do.  I also conceded that I goofed putting a gap between 131 and 132.  Having 122 occur during summer break makes it *more* logical to me, not weaker.  Politcally, Alpha Flight would want to walk into a guaranteed (or likely) success.  Allowing most of the students to go home on their own would make their job way easier.  Why bother showing up to grab dozens of kids who are going home in a week anyway?  Your other point about Xavier's behavior is totally subjective, and presumes that a person who has just experienced a life-altering trauma, and who has just made a life altering decision, should behave in a completely predictable fashion.  I don't consider this evidence to support either analysis.

I am elaborating on your points entirely at your above request.  Please understand, again, this is not an attempt to argue with you.  I found the previously proposed chronology unsatisfying, and wanted to express only that.  Since you ask, no, I haven't been around here very long.  I understand that the purpose of this project is to establish a definitive continuity, and that by definition there can be only one of those.  If this is not the appropriate forum for suggesting alternative theories, I apologize.  It was not my intent to belittle the work you have done.

			*	*	*

Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
Posted by Jeph! on October 01, 2003 at 16:51:52:
In Reply to: Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
posted by Harrison on October 01, 2003 at 14:14:18:

> > In BOTH versions of the chronology, we've broken up Jean's SINGLE TRIP -- from X #128-138 -- into more than one.

> Not so.  The "break" between 133 and 134 in my chronology doesn't interrupt Jean's trip, as she doesn't appear in any of the books I placed in there.

Whoops.  True.  Sorry.

> > could you elaborate on some of my points?  The one about Havok is fairly major -- he wakes up from his coma in UX #420, and is joyfully reunited with his friends and family in UX #421 -- yet you have all of X #134-141 crammed in-between the two issues.  This doesn't work.

> The amount of time elapsed during 134-141 is only a few days

Not true.  It's fifteen days, minimum.  That's OVER TWO WEEKS where Havok "was in no condition" to be reunited with his friends and family?

> Having [UX] 122 occur during summer break makes it *more* logical to me, not weaker.  Politcally, Alpha Flight would want to walk into a guaranteed (or likely) success.  Allowing most of the students to go home on their own would make their job way easier.

The thing about "summer break", here, is that as far as I know the school is only open to those kids who DON'T HAVE a good home to go back to  ie, the Special Class.  Sammy the Squid-Boy does not fit this category, and yet there he is in UX #422.  Why would his parents bother to have Alpha Flight sent in when they could just say "okay, Sammy, it's summer break  come home now"?

> Why bother showing up to grab dozens of kids who are going home in a week anyway?

This is why Paul feels that a long break inside X #138 is a GOOD thing  having the Riot and UX #422 occur in, say, October  WELL BEFORE summer break is announced at the end of X #138.

> Please understand, again, this is not an attempt to argue with you.  I found the previously proposed chronology unsatisfying, and wanted to express only that.

Don't worry, nobody's feathers are ruffled.

> I understand that the purpose of this project is to establish a definitive continuity, and that by definition there can be only one of those.

Not true, really - the MCP is only a suggested chronology, mutually agreed upon by MOST here.  You can read your comic books in whatever order you want  and so can I  and neither order necessarily has to agree with the MCP.

> If this is not the appropriate forum for suggesting alternative theories, I apologize.

This is the perfect forum for that.  Keep it up.  As I've said in my last two posts, as further issues of New X-Men are published, the picture of the time between X #141-150 will become clearer  and if necessary, everyone's chronologies will be revised.

By the way  one point you didn't elaborate on  Scott's line in X #146, when contacted by Prof. X  "Professor, is that you?  I'm sorry I ran out on the X-Men like I did, sir!  I'll try to explain later."  Seems to ME to be a fairly clear indication that Scott hasn't been home since he "ran out" in #139  or, at least, that's Morrison's intent.  Your thoughts?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
Posted by Harrison on October 01, 2003 at 18:40:40:
In Reply to: Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
posted by Jeph! on October 01, 2003 at 16:51:52:

> > The amount of time elapsed during 134-141 is only a few days

> Not true.  It's fifteen days, minimum.  That's OVER TWO WEEKS where Havok "was in no condition" to be reunited with his friends and family?

Really?  Two weeks?  I have to read that again.  Even so, one could make a case that there is some overlap between 420 and New 134-137.  The only character appearing in both is Wolverine, right?  And he's not there when Alex wakes up, so maybe that scene happens right before (or during) the riot.  Okay, it's a reach.  This one is trouble, no question.

> > Having [UX] 122 occur during summer break makes it *more* logical to me, not weaker.  Politcally, Alpha Flight would want to walk into a guaranteed (or likely) success.  Allowing most of the students to go home on their own would make their job way easier.

> The thing about "summer break", here, is that as far as I know the school is only open to those kids who DON'T HAVE a good home to go back to  ie, the Special Class.  Sammy the Squid-Boy does not fit this category, and yet there he is in UX #422.  Why would his parents bother to have Alpha Flight sent in when they could just say "okay, Sammy, it's summer break  come home now"?

What?  Sammy has a *terrible* home!  He would have begged Xavier to let him stay!  He may even have stayed without his abusive father's permission, creating the mistaken impression that he was being held against his will.  This one I stand by.

> By the way  one point you didn't elaborate on  Scott's line in X #146, when contacted by Prof. X  "Professor, is that you?  I'm sorry I ran out on the X-Men like I did, sir!  I'll try to explain later."  Seems to ME to be a fairly clear indication that Scott hasn't been home since he "ran out" in #139  or, at least, that's Morrison's intent.  Your thoughts?

Again, I agree this was Morrison's intent, but hold that spoiling it is the lesser of two evils.  Scott's comment about running out is only about 139 if that's the way you read it.  In my "Grouchy Scott" model, it simply refers to the last time he happened to storm out for a drink, right between Uncanny 434 and New 142.  Unless he says, "Sorry I ran out like that, back in issue #139."  Yeah, I know.  This one is a reach, too, but a much shorter reach.  I don't think the one comment is enough to cement 141 and 142 together.

While I'm reaching, what's up with "I'll try to explain later."?  If he really is talking about running out in 139, everyone in the mansion knows that he's pissed at Jean, and humiliated about Emma.  What's to explain?  Aha!  Sounds to me like he must be talking about something else!

Maybe.

			*	*	*

Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
Posted by Jeph! on October 01, 2003 at 20:16:47:
In Reply to: Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
posted by Harrison on October 01, 2003 at 18:40:40:

> one could make a case that there is some overlap between 420 and New 134-137.  The only character appearing in both is Wolverine, right?

Prof. X too.

> Okay, it's a reach.  This one is trouble, no question.

Trouble that Paul and I solved by placing a gap WITHIN #421, rather than between #420-421.  Of course, that brings Jean home...

> > The thing about "summer break", here, is that as far as I know the school is only open to those kids who DON'T HAVE a good home to go back to  ie, the Special Class.

> What?  Sammy has a *terrible* home!

Sammy never had a terrible home before UX #430.  The "abusive father" plotline just came up recently -- before then, the biggest thing Sammy had to deal with was kids mocking him at school.

> He would have begged Xavier to let him stay!  He may even have stayed without his abusive father's permission, creating the mistaken impression that he was being held against his will.

In UX #410, Prof. X got the permission of BOTH of Sammy's parents -- and in UX #422, he let Sammy go because the parents changed their mind.  If sammy had asked to stay for the summer session, Xavier would have surely cleared it with the parents -- there'd be no "mistaken impressions" created.

> This one is a reach, too, but a much shorter reach.  I don't think the one comment is enough to cement 141 and 142 together.

What about the impression created in #142 that Scott *didn't know* Emma had been shot?  From memory, didn't Logan tell him about it?

Also, in #146, the Beast is running tests on Emma, and she says she'll be leaving the school as soon as he clears her medically.  The clear impression is that she's still recuperating.

These three things add up, to me.  Again, though, as I've said in every post so far -- I'm waiting until #150 comes out to make a determination.

> what's up with "I'll try to explain later."?  If he really is talking about running out in 139, everyone in the mansion knows that he's pissed at Jean, and humiliated about Emma.  What's to explain?

Why, after running out like he did, he's suddenly making planetfall with Fantomex, leaving Logan in an exploding space station?  After all, his situation was what prompted Xavier to call the "X-Men Emergency" at the beginning of #146...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
Posted by Harrison on October 01, 2003 at 21:30:25:
In Reply to: Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
posted by Jeph! on October 01, 2003 at 20:16:47:

> What about the impression created in #142 that Scott *didn't know* Emma had been shot?  From memory, didn't Logan tell him about it?

Aha!  Yes he did!  But notice that Scott has absolutely no reaction to that news at all!  "What?  Emma shot?  My God!  When?  Is she alive?"  No, all he does is whine about how everybody thinks he did it.  Boo hoo.  The scene reads like this is OLD NEWS.  I was shocked by that when I first read it, but taken in this context it makes sense.  He already knows Emma survived, but he's depressed that he still hasn't been ruled out as a suspect.

> Also, in #146, the Beast is running tests on Emma, and she says she'll be leaving the school as soon as he clears her medically.  The clear impression is that she's still recuperating.

Which means nothing, since she never shows up in Uncanny.  No contradiction.  It could also take a pretty long time to recuperate from being shattered into tens of thousands of pieces.

Meanwhile, I think the issue of Sammy staying at the school is really insignificant.  It might go to your overall impression of the story, but the bottom line is that it is neither logically impossible nor logically certain that he would be there during summer break.

Really, the only fly I see in the ointment of my chronology is Alex waking up, and I still think I can live with that.  It may even be possible for me to cram Uncanny 416-420 into my 141/142 gap, which would solve everything.  Setting aside your revulsion to that gap in the first place, is there anything in 415-420 that *must* happen before the riot?

			*	*	*

Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology (spoilers for X #147)
Posted by Jeph! on October 02, 2003 at 01:18:21:
In Reply to: Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
posted by Harrison on October 01, 2003 at 21:30:25:

> Setting aside your revulsion to that gap in the first place, is there anything in 415-420 that *must* happen before the riot?

Yes. Glob Herman shows up in UX #416 -- and he's thrown out of the school in X #138.

Spoilers for X #147 to follow...

In today's issue of NXM, Magneto BURNS DOWN THE X-MANSION.  Surely this is an event that must be recognized in the satellite books, UX, XX, and NM2.

Looking specifically at NM2 for a second -- watching how the next few issues unfold may provide us with a lot more information about possible gaps between X #141-142.

NM2 #2 occurs during the school's summer session -- meaning, after Prof. X's announcement in X #138 that the school would be closing for summer vacation in six days.

Based on the passage of time from NM2 #2 until the first NM2 issue that reflects the events of X #146-150 (mentioning the school's burning, showing the professor crippled, etc.), we may indeed have to widen the gap between X #140, where the school actually closes, and X #143, which seems to take place the same day as X #146.

IF a gap between X #141-142 is mandated by the events of NM2, THEN I'd consider putting some UX issues into that gap.

NM2 #5 came out today.  I didn't buy it, but -- is Prof. X still walking?  How much time has passed?  Etc etc.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology (spoilers for X #147)
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 02, 2003 at 07:30:57:
In Reply to: Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology (spoilers for X #147)
posted by Jeph! on October 02, 2003 at 01:18:21:

> NM2 #5 came out today.  I didn't buy it, but -- is Prof. X still walking?  How much time has passed?  Etc etc.

Yes, Xavier is still walking.  AND Logan is there at the mansion training students in self-defense.  This squarely places NM2 5 (and 6 too, since it will pick up right where NM2 5 leaves off) BEFORE X 142.

I'll post a revised X-chronology just for this most recent time period later today.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology (spoilers for X #147)
Posted by Jeph! on October 02, 2003 at 12:47:12:
In Reply to: Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology (spoilers for X #147)
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 02, 2003 at 07:30:57:

> I'll post a revised X-chronology just for this most recent time period later today.

HARRISON WINS!  Hooray!

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology (spoilers for X #147)
Posted by Harrison on October 02, 2003 at 13:37:41:
In Reply to: Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology (spoilers for X #147)
posted by Jeph! on October 02, 2003 at 12:47:12:

> HARRISON WINS!  Hooray!

I wish.  Didn't catch the thing about Glob Herman.  Rats.

			*	*	*

Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology (spoilers for X #147)
Posted by Paul Bourcier on October 02, 2003 at 17:26:02:
In Reply to: Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology (spoilers for X #147)
posted by Jeph! on October 02, 2003 at 12:47:12:

> > I'll post a revised X-chronology just for this most recent time period later today.

> HARRISON WINS!  Hooray!

Whoever said that??

			*	*	*

Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology (spoilers for X #147)
Posted by Jeph! on October 02, 2003 at 17:33:46:
In Reply to: Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology (spoilers for X #147)
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 02, 2003 at 17:26:02:

> > > I'll post a revised X-chronology just for this most recent time period later today.

Actually, Paul, there's no need to post a full, revised X-chronology ... just post the bits that have been altered.  It's much easier to read than wading through a full posting and trying to pick out the different bits.

> > HARRISON WINS!  Hooray!

> Whoever said that??

I'm exaggerating.  If CYCLOPS were to pop up in NM2 #6, then Harrison would "win" for sure...

-Jeph!

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Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology (spoilers for X #147)
Posted by ShadZ on October 03, 2003 at 23:03:51:
In Reply to: Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology (spoilers for X #147)
posted by Paul Bourcier on October 02, 2003 at 07:30:57:

> > NM2 #5 came out today.  I didn't buy it, but -- is Prof. X still walking?  How much time has passed?  Etc etc.

> Yes, Xavier is still walking.  AND Logan is there at the mansion training students in self-defense.  This squarely places NM2 5 (and 6 too, since it will pick up right where NM2 5 leaves off) BEFORE X 142.

And Xavier mentions that it is summer, and the class schedule isn't regular.  It's implied that the self-defense class that Wolverene is teaching was thrown together because Wolverene happened to be at the mansion that day.

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Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 30, 2003 at 21:20:26:
In Reply to: Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
posted by Harrison on September 30, 2003 at 16:22:38:

> Some of your other points are well taken, but not enough to sway me.  Like I said, I'm not here to pick a fight.  My chronology has some awkward leaps, but none as awkward to me personally as cramming all that stuff into New 138, and having Jean take two trips.  Those solutions seem seriously contrary to Grant Morrison's intent in those stories, and I feel like it's worth pushing some other things around to preserve them as they were written.  Mind you, the best solution would be for Morrison, Austen and Claremont to get together and *communicate* once in a while.  This is the biggest continuity cluster f*** I've seen in years.

You hit the nail on the head there, Harrison.  The writers did not collaborate to ensure seamless continuity, so some compromises have to be made to reconcile the inconsistencies that result.  Some writer's or writers' intentions will need to be manipulated to make everything fit.

I don't know why Jean's making two trips is any more objectionable than your proposal concerning Cyclops' chronology.  I could argue that it was Morrison's intention for Scott to leave the mansion after Emma's death, only to be found in the bar by Wolverine, and that inserting him into a bunch of issues of Uncanny between those two events runs counter to the creator's sense of the storyline.

For all the reasons that Jeph outlined, I'm inclined to go with the gap in X 138, but I have to say I admire your attempt to come up with another solution.  Alas, no solution will be without flaw; it's just a matter of finding the solution with the fewest and least critical flaws, keeping in mind the BIG picture of overall MU continuity and, yes, temporal references where appropriate.

--Paul

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Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
Posted by Harrison on October 01, 2003 at 14:26:17:
In Reply to: Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
posted by Paul Bourcier on September 30, 2003 at 21:20:26:

> For all the reasons that Jeph outlined, I'm inclined to go with the gap in X 138, but I have to say I admire your attempt to come up with another solution.  Alas, no solution will be without flaw; it's just a matter of finding the solution with the fewest and least critical flaws, keeping in mind the BIG picture of overall MU continuity and, yes, temporal references where appropriate.

Well said, and thank you.  The reason breaking up the trip bothered me (since you wondered) is that Scott's creepy affair with Emma is one of the most bizarre and dramatic bits of character development done with this cast.  I'm not saying I like it, or that it worked, but having Jean return over and over while that's going on behind her back severely lessens the impact when she finally catches them.  I think it's a more powerful moment if the entire affair began and transpired while Jean was out of town.  As I hope I've made clear, that's an opinion, not an objective observation.  The breaks and segues in my own chronology have some story-telling problems of their own (obviously), but none of them bothers me quite as much.

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Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
Posted by Paul Bourcier on September 30, 2003 at 21:32:46:
In Reply to: Re: Alternative recent X-Men chronology
posted by Jeph! on September 30, 2003 at 12:14:25:

> By the way, I agree with you about placing XX #20-23 pre-Riot, based on the order in which Cannonball reads the news stories in XX #24 -- I'm not sure why Paul bumped it up to after the riot, except to make that one fershlugginer "springtime" line be accurate, but it doesn't read so well that way...

Well, yeah, there is that spring reference...

Don't forget that Sam was off earth for months.  After his return, he was catching up on news in Paris.  On page 21, panel 3 of XX 24, he reads about the events of XX 20-22 in the present tense ("Some kid mutant in Alaska's been accused of murder" -- not "was accused").  "Later still" (and it could be mere hours later for all we know), on page 21, panel 5, Sam is doing more internet checking when he notes that "they had some kinda riot at Xavier's" -- past tense.  There's nothing that says that information was CURRENT or even RECENT.

XX 20-22 could have been real news (last gasp of really cold weather in New York, while nice in Paris), while X 136-137 was archived news.

--Paul

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STARFOX...STEEL SERPENT II...STICK
Posted by Arthur Stein on September 30, 2003 at 15:25:29:
new entries marked **

STARFOX/EROS
A 261
**SWII 5 (22p6)
**SWII 9 (3p6  ducking to avoid the Surfers board)
SS3 19

STEEL SERPENT II/DAVOS
**M/TU 64-FB
IF 1
IF 15
M/TU 63
**M/TU 64
NW2 5

STICK
DD 177
**DD 188
**DD 189
DD 349

Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 

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