THERMAL MAN...THING...THOR
Posted by Arthur Stein on November 01, 2003 at 07:30:33:

new entries marked **


THERMAL MAN
**T 168
**T 169
T 170


THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM

FF 80
**SS 4 Loki scries theThing during his fight with Tomazooma. As both the other objects of Lokis scrying have entries, (Hulk and Hercules), so too should the Thing. Trouble is, at no time in FF 80 does the Thing face Tomazoomaa front as depicted in SS 4. Best I can come up with is that between FF 80 (14p6) where the Thing first lands on Tomazoomas back, and (15p1). where he applies a final futile whump to Tomazoomas back, Tomazooma tried to regain his feet and gets hit one additional time before that final whump.
FF 80

.. .. .. .. ..

M/CP 66/3
**M/CP 67/3
|M/CP 68/3


THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"

T 382
**XVSA 1
**XVSA 2
**XVSA 3
**XVSA 4
WCA@ 2

.. .. .. .. ..

T 411
**CA 366  ( I should have posted this with the Juggernaut posting but it slipped by). The appearance on Pg 6 panel 2 gives little new; the speech balloons are identical to a couple of panels in T 411  although we do see Thor actually getting a hit in before getting sent flying, which we dont in T 411. I guess the last panel on Pg 8 T 411 (consisting solely of a POW sound effect) is more of a composite of a longer battle resulting in Thors being sent flying. After that he either fights long distance or away from the crowds in a rail yard. 
BUT CA 366 (8p4) and (8p7) show further battle and CA366 (9p2-p3) show Thors awareness of something hitting the Juggernaut (one of the Controllers disks) while the battle is still in sight of the crowds. An action hitherto unseen.
T 411


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#130

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Thor Corps?
Posted by Kman00001 on November 03, 2003 at 02:19:40:

Anyone know where Thor Corps 1-4 take place at in the Thor and Thunderstrike continuities?

Just taking a guess here...sometime between Thor 459 and 462 for Thor and sometime shortly after Thunderstrike's series started. I haven't read the Thor Corps mini or the Thor issues from that time (just got them off of ebay) and I only have issues 2-3 of Thunderstrike so any placement you folks could give me would be great. 

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Re: Thor Corps?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 03, 2003 at 20:19:58:
In Reply to: Thor Corps? 
posted by Kman00001 on November 03, 2003 at 02:19:40:

My rough (and I emphasize rough) notes place this series between Thor #367 and #368 and between Thunderstrike #3 and #4. However, I haven't scrutinized these notes in quite some time, so someone else may have a more accurate calculation.

--Paul

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Re: Thor Corps?
Posted by Kman00001 on November 04, 2003 at 09:42:25:
In Reply to: Re: Thor Corps? 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 03, 2003 at 20:19:58:

Between Thor #367 and #368? That's like...during Simonson's run. I haven't read the books yet, but it does seem as though the Thor that appears in Thor Corps is definitely not from the present. I'm probably wrong, though. 

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Hulk: Gray #1 chronology/calender placement
Posted by Kevin on November 03, 2003 at 09:40:49:

I read Hulk:Gray #1 in a local bookstore the other day, (didn't have money at the time to buy it, and besides, these flashback stories aren't what I'm into right now) so I just read over it in the store.

DD: Yellow has Matt writing a letter to Karen Page, after her death.

Spiderman: Blue features a Spiderman moping around on Valentines day recalling his early days with Gwen, etc...

Hulk: Gray features Bruce Banner meeting up with Doc Samson in a secret rendevous location, where they have yet another "Physciatric session", or rather, Bruce Banner asks Samson to meet with him so he can get some things of his chest. They start talking, and Banner tells the story about the first time he transformed into the Hulk. 

Doc Samson says something like, "You asked me to come, and I came. Now what would you like to talk about?"

Banner notes that some shadowy figures are tracking him, searching for him. This sounds like a reference to the Secret Conspiracy groups tracking him for the last 2 years in the Hulk title.

However, Doc Samson is clearly shown not wearing an eyepatch on his right eye. In fact, he's wearing his glasses. Samson got the eye camera implant in Hulk #38-39, (BTS, as shown in Hulk #44). He's worn an eyepatch ever since #44. Samson doesn't seem to know anything about these shadowy forces following Banner, whereas he knows of them, and pretended to work for them starting in Hulk #36.

My guess is, this story goes right before the Bruce Jones storyline starts up in Hulk #34. Banner was already on the run in #34, which was just a few days after the "Death of Ricky Myers incident" in Chicago, (where Hulk went on a rampage). As there's no mention of the boy Ricky Myers, I'd say this happens before that incident. There's no mention of Banner talking to a "Mr. Blue" on a labtop computer, but maybe Banner's not wanting to reveal that info to Samson yet. Or maybe he hasn't gotten a labtop yet...that whole region where he starts up being the run again is kinda vague. Anyway, the next 6 issues of this storyline will have Banner explaining his early days as the Hulk, so I don't expect there to be any references to anything involved in the current storyline, so I expect the best place for placement for this miniseries is shortly before the Bruce Jones storyline starts up, between Hulk #33 and #34. 

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Re: Hulk: Gray #1 chronology/calender placement
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 03, 2003 at 20:15:05:
In Reply to: Hulk: Gray #1 chronology/calender placement 
posted by Kevin on November 03, 2003 at 09:40:49:

> I expect the best place for placement for this miniseries is shortly before the Bruce Jones storyline starts up, between Hulk #33 and #34.

Thanks for this tip, Kevin. Now we need to narrow this a bit more, as we have seven months separating H3 33 and 34, with the Hulk making a number of other appearances in that period. These appearances include JLA/AVENGERS, THE ORDER, WOLVERINE/HULK and THE END. Maybe the framing pages or panels of future issues of HULK: GRAY will give us more clues, including temporal references. I'll hold off on adding this series to the calendar until it's either over or it gives us a clue about a more precise placement.

--Paul

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Re: Hulk: Gray #1 chronology/calender placement
Posted by Kevin on November 03, 2003 at 20:34:34:
In Reply to: Re: Hulk: Gray #1 chronology/calender placement 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 03, 2003 at 20:15:05:

Well, since I started the thread, I got to thinking, I'd best just go back and buy the thing, to make sure I'm getting my facts straight, (as I kinda skimmed over it at the bookstore).

After sitting down and reading it thouroughly: 

The place where they're meeting at appears to be Doc Samson's office. There's a diploma on the wall, and a sign reading "Leonard Samson, M.D."

Why Banner, (if he's on the run, which he says he is) would choose this place to meet, I don't know...I suspect he doesn't know the full scope of who all's after him and all, (the Secret Conspiracy storyline may be just starting up).

Banner thinks to himself, (as the conversation with Samson starts up): "I should keep moving. Whoever it is that is chasing me--and it always is someone--will know to look here. Particularly on this day...

What would've been--should've been my wedding anniversary."

So that's the other big clue. Which I missed the first time I read it. (Duh!) Today is the date of his wedding aniversary. Well, we just met on this message board another guy who says he's calender placing the John Bryne/Peter David issues, and Banner got married in a Bryne issue in the mid 80's...I wonder if he has a date. 

Still, other than that, I suspect it's closer to Issue #34 than issue #33. Definently after the Order if I had to take a guess. And more than likely after Wolverine/Hulk, (the Sam Kieth miniseries). About The End and Avengers/JLA, I dunno, where do you have them on your calender again?

Other temporal references from this issue...it's raining outside the window...

But then, the story switches to the past, and that's where I think it's going to stay for the next 5 issues...it probably won't switch back to the present till Issue 6, (the conclusion issue). So you're right, we should probably wait and see, but that's just what I've come up with so far.

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Re: Hulk: Gray #1 chronology/calender placement
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 03, 2003 at 21:28:55:
In Reply to: Re: Hulk: Gray #1 chronology/calender placement 
posted by Kevin on November 03, 2003 at 20:34:34:

> What would've been--should've been my wedding anniversary."

Bingo. There's our smoking gun of a chronological clue. Bruce and Betty were married in H2 319. Unfortunatly, I haven't arrived at a firm conclusion about calendar placement of that issue. My initial notes indicate late April, but I believe I need to re-evaluate this particular period in MU history; when last I left it, my calendar placement for this time was in a state of flux. Banner's journal in H2 317 (two issues before the wedding) reads "November 18" and H2 318 occurs "two weeks" later -- circa December 2. But I don't know if the date reference in H2 317 is topical, and I don't know how much time passes between H2 318 and 319.

Going by the current calendar, placement after The Order would mean after May 29. Placement closer to H3 34 would mean several months later, in the fall, but before Nov. 19, the day I've placed the supposed death of Ricky Myers.

Let's wait for Hulk:Gray #6. In the meantime, I would be interested in the flashback portion...

--Paul 

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Re: Hulk: Gray #1 chronology/calender placement
Posted by Kevin Wasser on November 04, 2003 at 08:47:40:
In Reply to: Re: Hulk: Gray #1 chronology/calender placement 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 03, 2003 at 21:28:55:


> Let's wait for Hulk:Gray #6. In the meantime, I would be interested in the flashback portion...

Oh, I see, hehehe (hint,hint,nudge,nudge)....well, the reason I didn't bring that stuff up is because it's just like the DD: Yellow and Spiderman:Blue miniseries. They're flashbacks to the heroes early days. I didn't think you guys counted these flashbacks if what they showed were the same things we've seen previously. 

Then again, DD:Yellow was important because it revised previous DD history from DD: Man without Fear, (which had revised previous DD history)....


Still, I'll keep track of it and do a chronology review for the flashback portions as well... 

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Bruce and Betty's wedding.
Posted by Jason Powell on November 04, 2003 at 15:16:05:
In Reply to: Re: Hulk: Gray #1 chronology/calender placement 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 03, 2003 at 21:28:55:


> Bingo. There's our smoking gun of a chronological clue. Bruce and Betty were married in H2 319. Unfortunatly, I haven't arrived at a firm conclusion about calendar placement of that issue. My initial notes indicate late April, but I believe I need to re-evaluate this particular period in MU history; when last I left it, my calendar placement for this time was in a state of flux. Banner's journal in H2 317 (two issues before the wedding) reads "November 18" and H2 318 occurs "two weeks" later -- circa December 2. But I don't know if the date reference in H2 317 is topical, and I don't know how much time passes between H2 318 and 319.

Speaking as the aforementioned "guy" who is trying to parse those issues chronologically, I will tell you that they're a bitch and a half, and I can certainly understand -- based on the Hulk issues alone -- why this era would be in a state of flux for you. OH, so many problems with it.

First off, as you implied, there is never at any point a specific temporal reference between H2 318 and H2 319. I'm sure Byrne would have provided one at some point, had he not left. But he did, and that's when things get *really* screwed up. For example ...

1.) In issue 320, Doc Samson flashes back to the events of issues 314-319, implying strongly that it all occurred in "the last few weeks." Impossible, since Byrne was writing roughly in "real time" for those six issues, with each issue occuring roughly a month apart. (Doc Samson also refers to the day that issue 320 takes place as "Day Six," which is a meaningless temporal reference, from what I can see.)

No big deal, since Samson could simply be wrong. But check this one out ...

2.) Issue 333 is referred to as "the night we change the clocks back," which would make it the last Saturday of October. And there's no way, NO WAY that eleven months could have occurred in between issue 317 (Nov. 18) and 333.

My solution was to use the fact that Banner was diagnosed around the 320s as being in a state of diminishing mental acuity after his physical split from the Hulk in issue 315. I say that this explains why he put the wrong date in his journal in issue 317 -- I say it was a mistake as a result of his clouded mind. (I'm putting it as Sept. 18 personally). I parsed the wedding at the beginning of October, as it seems to be roughly a month between it and the Daylight Savings reference.

For your purposes, it could be longer. The two vaguest bits of temporality in the run from 317-333 are before and after the wedding issue, which would give you guys lots of play. There are NO temporal references to how long it was between Betty's acceptance and the wedding itself, and in 320 there's no reference to how long ago it was (other than Betty's vague reference to being "newly married").

In any case, I put the wedding as happening on Oct 7, which would work if you wanted it to be just a little bit before Nov. 19.

Hope that's helpful!

Jason 

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Re: Bruce and Betty's wedding.
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 04, 2003 at 18:02:05:
In Reply to: Bruce and Betty's wedding. 
posted by Jason Powell on November 04, 2003 at 15:16:05:


> Hope that's helpful!


Yes, it is! I hope your calendar review of the run of the Hulk is as detailed as this.

It likely will be a while before I get around to looking at the big picture of the MU at the time of the wedding, so IF we want to include Hulk: Gray on the calendar at the point, I could log it in on Oct. 7, at least for now.

I say "IF" because if the flashbacks in Hulk:Gray turn out to be non-canon, then can we say that the framing sequence is canon? Same goes for Spider-Man:Blue, whose flashbacks did not follow established continuity.

--Paul 

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Re: Bruce and Betty's wedding.
Posted by Jason Powell on November 05, 2003 at 13:46:08:
In Reply to: Re: Bruce and Betty's wedding. 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 04, 2003 at 18:02:05:

> 
> Yes, it is! I hope your calendar review of the run of the Hulk is as detailed as this.

It's about as detailed as it can get, with the caveat that I am not parsing any other comics that are concurrent with it. (Note that issue 316 of the Hulk, which precedes the wedding, and issue 320-324, which come right after, both have a truckload of Avengers guest-starring, which could also affect your calendar when you end up tackling this era of the MU. But lucky solipsistic me, it doesn't affect mine!

> It likely will be a while before I get around to looking at the big picture of the MU at the time of the wedding, so IF we want to include Hulk: Gray on the calendar at the point, I could log it in on Oct. 7, at least for now.

Sounds good!

> I say "IF" because if the flashbacks in Hulk:Gray turn out to be non-canon, then can we say that the framing sequence is canon? Same goes for Spider-Man:Blue, whose flashbacks did not follow established continuity.

Well, my fellow Hulk fans and I have discussed that, actually, and have decided that there are two possibilities for the lack of synchronicity between Hulk Gray and the original Hulk#1. 1 is simply that Bruce is misremembering things that happened so many years ago, and 2 is that we're seeing things that happened "between the panels." Either way, the non-flashback sequences can still be called canon. (And if it's the latter, I'd be glad to post my panel-by-panel parsing of Hulk #1 and Hulk: Gray to show how the two could actually fit together more smoothly than it initially might seem.)

In the meantime, I'm glad I could contribute something useful to the MCP discourse!

Jason 

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Re: Bruce and Betty's wedding.
Posted by RLG on November 05, 2003 at 16:49:32:
In Reply to: Re: Bruce and Betty's wedding. 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 04, 2003 at 18:02:05:

> 
> > > Bingo. There's our smoking gun of a chronological clue. Bruce and Betty were married in H2 319. Unfortunatly, I haven't arrived at a firm conclusion about calendar placement of that issue. My initial notes indicate late April, but I believe I need to re-evaluate this particular period in MU history; when last I left it, my calendar placement for this time was in a state of flux. Banner's journal in H2 317 (two issues before the wedding) reads "November 18" and H2 318 occurs "two weeks" later -- circa December 2. But I don't know if the date reference in H2 317 is topical, and I don't know how much time passes between H2 318 and 319.

> > Speaking as the aforementioned "guy" who is trying to parse those issues chronologically, I will tell you that they're a bitch and a half, and I can certainly understand -- based on the Hulk issues alone -- why this era would be in a state of flux for you. OH, so many problems with it.

> > First off, as you implied, there is never at any point a specific temporal reference between H2 318 and H2 319. I'm sure Byrne would have provided one at some point, had he not left. But he did, and that's when things get *really* screwed up. For example ...

> > 1.) In issue 320, Doc Samson flashes back to the events of issues 314-319, implying strongly that it all occurred in "the last few weeks." Impossible, since Byrne was writing roughly in "real time" for those six issues, with each issue occuring roughly a month apart. (Doc Samson also refers to the day that issue 320 takes place as "Day Six," which is a meaningless temporal reference, from what I can see.)

> > No big deal, since Samson could simply be wrong. But check this one out ...

> > 2.) Issue 333 is referred to as "the night we change the clocks back," which would make it the last Saturday of October. And there's no way, NO WAY that eleven months could have occurred in between issue 317 (Nov. 18) and 333.

> > My solution was to use the fact that Banner was diagnosed around the 320s as being in a state of diminishing mental acuity after his physical split from the Hulk in issue 315. I say that this explains why he put the wrong date in his journal in issue 317 -- I say it was a mistake as a result of his clouded mind. (I'm putting it as Sept. 18 personally). I parsed the wedding at the beginning of October, as it seems to be roughly a month between it and the Daylight Savings reference.

> > For your purposes, it could be longer. The two vaguest bits of temporality in the run from 317-333 are before and after the wedding issue, which would give you guys lots of play. There are NO temporal references to how long it was between Betty's acceptance and the wedding itself, and in 320 there's no reference to how long ago it was (other than Betty's vague reference to being "newly married").

> > In any case, I put the wedding as happening on Oct 7, which would work if you wanted it to be just a little bit before Nov. 19.

> > Hope that's helpful!

> 
> Yes, it is! I hope your calendar review of the run of the Hulk is as detailed as this.

> It likely will be a while before I get around to looking at the big picture of the MU at the time of the wedding, so IF we want to include Hulk: Gray on the calendar at the point, I could log it in on Oct. 7, at least for now.

> I say "IF" because if the flashbacks in Hulk:Gray turn out to be non-canon, then can we say that the framing sequence is canon? Same goes for Spider-Man:Blue, whose flashbacks did not follow established continuity.

> --Paul


>>> For what it is worth, I have been working on calendar placements for that period of time (picking up from Paul's Avengers calendar) and yes, it is a real pain in the ass!!

>>> Let me stress, I do not have the complete run of the INC.HULK circa #315 to #330ish, but working with references in various other titles (ex. - Spidey, New Mutants, Vision & Scarlet Witch) that I do have complete runs of, I've been under the working theory that the SECRET WARS II ended shortly before Christmas, YEAR 13. By the way, this is the Christmas that the Kingpin tried to ruin Matt Murdock in the "Born Again" storyline.

>>> Also, if the anniversary of the FFs rocket flight is very late Feb or very early March, then the She-Hulk's appearance in INC.HULK #321-323 would have to be taken into account as she was theoretically still in the FF at the time.

>>> And, IF the time frame for the Scarlet Witch's due date is correct in VISION & SCARLET WITCH (v.2), she would be having her "twins" near the middle of May.

>>>Which reminds me, are their "rules" to the amount of weight calendar references in lesser titles vs. more popular ones? For example, a Halloween reference in POWER PACK were the kids meet up with Spidey to battle Dr.Whoever, but the battle continues in a Spidey title with the reference to it being the middle of Spring. Does Spidey's reference win out just because it is a Spidey title?

>>> Sorry, I got off track, but I hope the info above can be of use.

- RLG

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Re: Bruce and Betty's wedding.
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 07, 2003 at 20:38:40:
In Reply to: Re: Bruce and Betty's wedding. 
posted by RLG on November 05, 2003 at 16:49:32:

> >>> Also, if the anniversary of the FFs rocket flight is very late Feb or very early March, then the She-Hulk's appearance in INC.HULK #321-323 would have to be taken into account as she was theoretically still in the FF at the time.

FYI, I have Feb. 27 as the tentative date for FF 1, FF 296, and FF3 50.

And yes, the December placement for the end of Secret Wars II matches my initial notes.


> >>> And, IF the time frame for the Scarlet Witch's due date is correct in VISION & SCARLET WITCH (v.2), she would be having her "twins" near the middle of May.

V&SW2 12 begins on the "Thursday" of the "second week of May" and ends "three days" later. It is presumably "nine months" after WCA 2, but my preliminary notes indicate that the baby may have arrived a month early.


> >>>Which reminds me, are their "rules" to the amount of weight calendar references in lesser titles vs. more popular ones? For example, a Halloween reference in POWER PACK were the kids meet up with Spidey to battle Dr.Whoever, but the battle continues in a Spidey title with the reference to it being the middle of Spring. Does Spidey's reference win out just because it is a Spidey title?

I don't believe a title automatically has more "weight" because it is more popular. Popularity has nothing to do with chronological placement; the key is preponderance of evidence when all relevant titles are taken into account.

Thanks for your input!

--Paul 

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I'm curious ...
Posted by Jason Powell on November 11, 2003 at 12:32:21:
In Reply to: Re: Bruce and Betty's wedding. 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 07, 2003 at 20:38:40:


> FYI, I have Feb. 27 as the tentative date for FF 1, FF 296, and FF3 50.

Paul,

I'm curious: Do you yet have a placement for Incredible Hulk Volume One #1? (Which would then also be the date for issue 393 of Volume Two?)

Jason 

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Re: I'm curious ...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 11, 2003 at 21:49:16:
In Reply to: I'm curious ... 
posted by Jason Powell on November 11, 2003 at 12:32:21:

> I'm curious: Do you yet have a placement for Incredible Hulk Volume One #1? (Which would then also be the date for issue 393 of Volume Two?)

Nope. That date is flexible.

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Cool.
Posted by Jason Powell on November 12, 2003 at 15:11:12:
In Reply to: Re: I'm curious ... 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 11, 2003 at 21:49:16:


Cool. At the moment, I have it placed as March 7.

Jason

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Help with Deadpool?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 03, 2003 at 21:08:34:

In reviewing the calendar, I notice I'm missing several issues of Deadpool v3. Can anyone provide a chronological analysis for DP3 45 and 49-51? Thanks.

--Paul 

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Thanos first appearance
Posted by BigLion on November 04, 2003 at 13:22:28:

I was checking the Thanos listing the other day when I noticed the first appearance (in red?) was quoted as Iron Man #54-
I was rather shocked and re-read the whole comic which has no mention of Thanos, only the Submariner and Madame McEvil, just in case I was missing the point; so a correction is in order here. You can tell by the price of the comic that the first appearance of Thanos is in Iron Man #55 

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Re: Thanos first appearance
Posted by OnionMan on November 08, 2003 at 00:07:27:
In Reply to: Thanos first appearance 
posted by BigLion on November 04, 2003 at 13:22:28:

I'm also curios about what Iron Man #54 has got to do with Thanos.

Is it some BTS that i missed, or is it a mistake in the listing?

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Re: Thanos first appearance
Posted by Administrator on November 08, 2003 at 01:15:36:
In Reply to: Re: Thanos first appearance 
posted by OnionMan on November 08, 2003 at 00:07:27:

Sounds like a mistake.

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Re: Thanos first appearance
Posted by Scott on November 28, 2003 at 18:45:38:
In Reply to: Thanos first appearance 
posted by BigLion on November 04, 2003 at 13:22:28:

On eBay, people auction of a Logan's RUn comic with a Thanos back-up feature and call THAT his first appearance. Why?

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Re: Thanos first appearance
Posted by Jeph! on November 29, 2003 at 00:54:57:
In Reply to: Re: Thanos first appearance 
posted by Scott on November 28, 2003 at 18:45:38:

They like money.

-Jeph! 

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Re: Thanos first appearance
Posted by tony on January 06, 2004 at 14:52:50:
In Reply to: Re: Thanos first appearance 
posted by Scott on November 28, 2003 at 18:45:38:

the overstreet say's LOGANS RUN #6 is Thanos's first solo story.

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THOR II...THOR REPLICOID...THUNDERBIRD
Posted by Arthur Stein on November 05, 2003 at 16:48:45:

new entries marked **


THOR II/ROGER "RED" NORVELL

**T 273 (27p4-p6)
T 274


THOR REPLICOID

T 389
(T 416) -- Im not seeing the Replicoid in T 416
**T 417
T 418


THUNDERBIRD/JOHN PROUDSTAR

GSX 1
**CX 1 (24)
UX 94


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#131 

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Back stories in DAREDEVIL ANNUAL #5
Posted by RLG on November 06, 2003 at 08:50:44:

>>>First a recap of the events in Daredevil's mag during that time period:
DD 248 - legal clinic opens & 1st appearance of Bushwaker
DD 249 - Bushwaker's face scarred during explosion while battling DD and Wolverine
DD 259 - Typhoid Mary frees Bushwacker from the hospital he has been in since DD 249
DD 260 - DD beaten up by the Wild Boys (hired by Typhoid Mary.) DD left for dead until he wakes up during Inferno
DD 265 - end of Inferno
DD 266 - DD, still bandaged from his injuries, battles Mephisto on "Christmas"
DD 267 - No longer bandaged, DD leaves Hell's Kitchen and begins to roam around upstate (ala Kane in Kung-Fu)
DD@ 5/1 - while upstate DD & Dr.Strange team-up to battle Tyrannus
DD 271 - DD is still upstate


>>> DD's chronology states that he appears in the DD@ 5 stories in the order within they are told in that issue. This conflicts with the info above. For example:

>>> In DD@ 5/2, the Wild Boys and DD appear in Hell's Kitchen, but their defeat (in DD 260) of him is mentioned. DD@ 5/3 occurs on the same night at DD@ 5/2, when DD rescues the Fat Boys from kidnappers.

>>> Daredevil's appearances in these two stories must occur sometime between DD 265 & DD 267. Daredevil is still in Hell's Kitchen, but occurs after Inferno.

>>> In DD@ 5/4, Ben Urich runs across Bushwacker while investigating a drug dealer. Bushwacker's face is not scarred. J.J.Jameson appears. During this story, Ben asks Matt if he is "taking a break from the clinic?". That said, this story has to take place between DD 248 & DD 249. I'm not sure how this will effect Ben Urich's chronology (or J.J.Jameson's for that matter.)


>>>By the way, I'm currently working review of Daredevil starting circa DD 90 and ending around DD 340 (or later.) The review is heavy on seasonal references and number of days each issue covers. The actual synopses of each story are bare-bones. When it is completed, should I post it this board? Also, if anyone has calendar tips on these issues, I would be very grateful.

- RLG 

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Re: Back stories in DAREDEVIL ANNUAL #5 
Posted by Administrator on November 06, 2003 at 20:19:22:
In Reply to: Back stories in DAREDEVIL ANNUAL #5 
posted by RLG on November 06, 2003 at 08:50:44:

> When it is completed, should I post it this board? 

If it's related to character chronologies, we welcome it.

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iron man 2020
Posted by Rhod on November 06, 2003 at 14:18:24:

Is Arno Stark, iron man of 2020 on here? I havent been able to find him..... 

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Question about syntax...
Posted by Ross Snyder on November 08, 2003 at 14:23:14:

What does it mean when a character has an appearance in braces? For example, Ghost Rider has:

[GR3 72]

In its listing. What does this mean?

Thanks,
Ross 

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Re: Question about syntax...
Posted by Administrator on November 08, 2003 at 15:20:36:
In Reply to: Question about syntax... 
posted by Ross Snyder on November 08, 2003 at 14:23:14:

It means that the book has been analyzed, so all the character appearances should be listed, but you shouldn't trust its chronological placement, yet.

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Night Falls On Yancy Street: non-canon after allPosted by Paul Bourcier on November 09, 2003 at 17:07:25:

A while back we had a thread about the four-issue limited series, "Startling Stories: The Thing -- Night Falls On Yancy Street." We attempted to place this series chronologically, but having just picked up issue #4, I came to the conclusion that it is non-canon.

The first clue was that the chronology made no sense. There's the whole deal with the Sandman's presumably booby-trapped costume and also the presence of a furry Beast at a time when Johnny Storm was still dating Crystal. In issue #4, not only do we see a picture of the furry Beast (no doubt about that), but also a sculpture of Colossus dressed as an X-Man -- at a time before Peter Rasputin joined the X-Men.

The second, more significant clue -- the Wizard and the Trapster are KILLED by the Absorbing Man in issue #4. There's nothing like a death to mess up a character's chronology.

I think we still need to evaluate each Startling Stories mini-series separately, but they may all turn out to be non-canon. The next one involving the Hulk sure doesn't appear canon from the write-up in CSN.

--Paul 

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Re: Night Falls On Yancy Street: non-canon after all
Posted by Jeph! on November 09, 2003 at 23:04:07:
In Reply to: Night Falls On Yancy Street: non-canon after all 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 09, 2003 at 17:07:25:

Someone's a little behind the learning curve:

http://chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/messages/4833.htm

Hee!

-Jeph!
no offense meant, Paul... :-) 

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Re: Night Falls On Yancy Street: non-canon after all
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 10, 2003 at 07:01:08:
In Reply to: Re: Night Falls On Yancy Street: non-canon after all 
posted by Jeph! on November 09, 2003 at 23:04:07:

Thanks. 

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Re: Night Falls On Yancy Street: non-canon after all
Posted by Jeph! on November 10, 2003 at 13:17:06:
In Reply to: Re: Night Falls On Yancy Street: non-canon after all 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 10, 2003 at 07:01:08:

And, speaking of "behind the curve", while searching for this post, I found one wherein I promised to "get right on" giving you write-ups for Wolverine v2 #183 and 189, and v3 #4-up. On August 9th.

Sigh. Why do you put up with me?

Still need 'em, Paul? Today's my day off and I can probably guilt myself into getting them done...

-Jeph! 

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Re: Night Falls On Yancy Street: non-canon after all
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 11, 2003 at 06:48:22:
In Reply to: Re: Night Falls On Yancy Street: non-canon after all 
posted by Jeph! on November 10, 2003 at 13:17:06:


You bet! Anything you can provide on those Wolverine issues would be appreciated.

--Paul

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Wolverine #183
Posted by Jeph! on November 12, 2003 at 03:11:10:
In Reply to: Re: Night Falls On Yancy Street: non-canon after all 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 11, 2003 at 06:48:22:

After three months of waiting, I managed to get ONE issue done. I'd do more, but it's already 4 am -- I'm sure I can do the rest soon, though.

Hope this was worth the wait...

-Jeph!


Wolverine v2 #183:

First story: "And Got Yourself a Gun".

One day, daytime into evening. Green trees and clear skies. Long pants and shirt sleeves. Wolverine walks into a private club and kills the cast of "the Sopranos". (Really.) A mob figure comments that this is the fourth of the Roman's crews that Logan has killed in "just one week" (after making a deal to do so at the end of W2 #182). The "one week" reference is corroborated by mob boss Freddo Pazzo. Another mob figure says that "weve been in it with this maniac for what, a few weeks now?", but he could be referring to the entire time period from the start W2 #181, not just the time period since Wolverine cut the deal at the end of W2 #182  it's unclear what "in it" means. In any case, it's been at least one week since the end of #182, possibly more if necessary.

This issue guest-stars the Punisher, who was apparently about to kill the Sopranos when Wolvie got to them first. No real chronology clues are given, except that the Punisher is loitering around the front door of the club, and he doesn't seem worried that Logan will sniff him out. Could this take place prior to the insane ass-kicking that Castle gave Wolvie in Punisher v6 #16-17, where he ran him over with a steamroller, and Wolvie swore to "hunt Castle to the ends of the earth, kill him, and gut him like a fish"? Wolvie is clearly still mad when they cross paths again in W2 #186, so perhaps this near-miss between the two should occur before Wolvie swears vengeance? (W2 #183 was published January 2003, and PUN6 #17 was published December 2002, so in that sense it's not that much of a stretch to reverse the two.)

This issue features a flashback of the Sweeper tracking down a stolen gem and returning it to the Kingpin, with an attached note reading "all clean". This implies that the FB occurs before the Kingpin lost his eyesight, and previous discussions on this board placed it between DD2 #8-9.

Second story: "Restraining Order".

One early morning in Kobe, Japan. It's "4 am", local time, but the skies are light orange and yellow  it appears to be sunup. Green foliage and long sleeves. Wolverine hunts down Lady Deathstrike as vengeance for her actions in W2 #173-176. In previous discussions on this board, I suggested that this occur just prior to X #131 in order to lend some credence to Wolvie's claim that he was in the Madripoor area just prior to that issue, despite other evidence that he was in New Orleans days before THAT  but, really, it could occur any time after W2 #176 and prior to both XU #39/2 (where Wolvie is banned from Japan) and XX #25 (where Deathsrike pops up with a new look).

(The relevant portion of my calendar -- the "previous discussions" I reference -- is copied below:)

----
Tuesday

X-TREME X-MEN X-POSE' #1 pp.1-4
XXX #10-18 were "a few weeks back". The executive producer of "Spotlight" assigns two sets of reporters to get dirt on the X-Treme X-Men. From here, it takes Neal and Manoli " a whole week" to get the X-Men's address (p.6), so this sequence takes place a week before.

----
Friday?

X-TREME X-MEN X-POSE' #1 pp.5
Reporters visit X-Corp in Paris, trying to speak to Prof. X or Archangel, both of whom are implied to be in Paris at that time. Probably at least two days after pp.1-4, as one reporter "called yesterday"  unless he called the day he got the assignment. Shortly before X #128-130, as THESE reporters make no mention of the Chunnel incident, and the lobby (attacked by troops in X #129) is spotless. Also, by X #131, Archangel is back at the school.

----
Monday

NEW X-MEN #128-130
One day, mostly at night. Jean and Prof. X have begun their FIRST worldwide trip on X-Corp's behalf, beginning in Paris. Weapon XII crashes a train in the Channel Tunnel, and Darkstar is killed.

----
Tuesday

X-TREME X-MEN #24 pp. 1-6
Cannonball helps the rescue workers at the Channel Tunnel crash site, the day after the accident (and probably same day as XXX #1 pp.6-7). The other X-Men are leaving the scene, so this is likely early morning.

X-TREME X-MEN X-POSE' #1 pp.6-7
After XXX #1 pp.5. Neal and Manoli reference "the incident in the Channel Tunnel", placing this after X #130, and they make a number of phone calls to try to track down the X-Men. Manoli confirms an appointment with Valerie Cooper's secretary "for tomorrow", so this page takes place during normal business hours. Neal and Manoli's clothes don't change, so it's likely all the same day. They finally get an address  it took them "a whole week". Meanwhile, on p.7, the other reporters visit the X-Mansion

X-TREME X-MEN X-POSE' #2 pp.3-4 (FB)
and are dunked in the lake by Esme of the Cuckoos. Time-code on the camera footage reads "13:34.27.03"  this either means they've shot over 13 hours of footage (I don't think any tape holds that much) or it's 1:34 pm.

----
Wednesday

X-TREME X-MEN X-POSE' #1 pp.8-13
Neal and Manoli arrive in New Orleans  Logan says it is "morning" and the reporters' clothes are different, placing this very probably the day after XXX #1 p.6. By the way, Manoli still has an appointment with Val Cooper today, so it's unlikely that they traveled directly out to California from here.

X-TREME X-MEN #24 pp. 7-14
Cannonball is STILL volunteering. News reports say that no survivors have been found for over 24 hours, and a survivor was found on p.4  so this is likely the evening of the day after pp.1-6, and TWO days after X #130.

----
Thursday

WOLVERINE v2 #183 (second story)
Using the passage of time the books give us, Storm leaves for Genosha on this date, three days before X #132. Therefore, one can assume Logan left for Madripoor on the same date. It's odd, given that Ororo is portrayed as unwell in XXX #1 pp.8-13 and walking in X #132, but it is consistent with all her other appearances showing her to be healing but impatient, and constantly overexerting herself (walking, trying to fly, etc.). In any event, I needed a rationale for Logan to travel to the Madripoor area of the world. Having him hear of the whereabouts of Lady Deathstrike, whom he'd vowed to find and kill for what she did in W2 #173-176, seemed like a good impetus. He could have then traveled to Madripoor the next day, or later that same day.

----
Friday

X-TREME X-MEN #24 pp.15-16
"Much, MUCH later", all bodies have been accounted for. Given the time-references between Storm appearing in New Orleans in XXX #1 and "three days later" in Genosha in X #132, this sequence must be TWO days after pp.7-14.

----
Saturday

NEW X-MEN #131 pp.1-3
Darkstar's funeral. Going by XX #24, it's been five days since X #130.

X-TREME X-MEN #24 pp.17-18
"The next morning" after pp.15-16, Cannonball attends Darkstar's funeral, in a scene ripped from X #131. Prof. X accepts Sam's resignation from X-Corp.

NEW X-MEN #131 pp.4-21
Archangel is blue here, placing it before UX #410. Logan has most recently been in Madripoor, according to Cyclops (and he's likely being dropped off in Afghanistan here). It's the first time Scott and Jean have been together for "weeks" (since X #127).

X-TREME X-MEN #24 pp.18-19
The night of Darkstar's funeral, Sam leaves Earth with Lila Cheney, and doesn't return for "months".

----
Sunday

NEW X-MEN #132
Sabra says she "should have stayed in Paris with X-Corp" and that this has been "the worst weekend of her life"  since Sabra isn't a MEMBER of X-Corp Paris, this must refer to the only time she was ever in Paris with them; X #131  which in turn implies that X #131-132 take place over the same "weekend". Storm has been in Genosha for "three days", meaning she left on the date I've placed W2 #183/2. We see her walk, manipulate clouds and fly (with the aid of her cape to catch the wind)  that's one hell of a recovery. Prof. X and Jean are "on their way to India". Since France, Genosha, and India are NOT in a straight line, I have to assume that they're following a planned itinerary of X-Corp locales. 

			*	*	*

Re: Wolverine #183
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 12, 2003 at 07:08:00:
In Reply to: Wolverine #183 
posted by Jeph! on November 12, 2003 at 03:11:10:

> Hope this was worth the wait...

Thanks, Jeph.


> This issue guest-stars the Punisher, who was apparently about to kill the Sopranos when Wolvie got to them first. No real chronology clues are given, except that the Punisher is loitering around the front door of the club, and he doesn't seem worried that Logan will sniff him out. Could this take place prior to the insane ass-kicking that Castle gave Wolvie in Punisher v6 #16-17, where he ran him over with a steamroller, and Wolvie swore to "hunt Castle to the ends of the earth, kill him, and gut him like a fish"? Wolvie is clearly still mad when they cross paths again in W2 #186, so perhaps this near-miss between the two should occur before Wolvie swears vengeance? (W2 #183 was published January 2003, and PUN6 #17 was published December 2002, so in that sense it's not that much of a stretch to reverse the two.)

My notes indicate that you placed PUN3 17 at an earlier point:

PUNISHER v6 #16
PUNISHER v6 #17
These two issues occur one night. Wolverine is in Manhattan, drinking and in a bad mood. Placement just after XU 39/2 would provide a reason for Logans foul mood  being legally barred from the country he loves.

IIRC, XU 39/2 was placed a bit earlier than W2 183. Would you recommend a new, later placement for PUN3 16-17?

--Paul

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Re: Wolverine #183
Posted by Jeph! on November 12, 2003 at 11:54:40:
In Reply to: Re: Wolverine #183 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 12, 2003 at 07:08:00:

> Would you recommend a new, later placement for PUN3 16-17?

Well, I *was* going to suggest that, yes, but upon re-reading W2 #186, it seems clear that it wasn't Wolvie who found the Punisher -- the Punisher tracked down Wolverine, specifically to lecture him about his handling of the Pazzo mob family. (Also, for what it's worth, the recap page in #186 puts the PUN6 #16-17 events before the W2 #181-185 events.)

So, no -- it looks like PUN6 #16-17 should stay where they are ... or at least, they should go sometime prior to W2 #181...

-Jeph! 

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Re: Wolverine #183
Posted by Jeph! on November 12, 2003 at 12:37:46:
In Reply to: Re: Wolverine #183 
posted by Jeph! on November 12, 2003 at 11:54:40:

Whoops -- left out half my point.

As the Punisher didn't say anything about Wolvie's effects on the mob in PUN6 #16-17 (even though they were FIGHTING the mob), and as the "Wolvie swears vengeance" plotline was NEVER followed up on (is it safe to say that Wolvie was just spouting off?), I think the PUN6 issues should indeed go before the Punisher's appearance in W2 #183.

-Jeph!
coming soon: #189. 

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Re: Wolverine #183
Posted by Kevin on November 13, 2003 at 11:43:31:
In Reply to: Re: Wolverine #183 
posted by Jeph! on November 12, 2003 at 12:37:46:

Just so you guys know:

The latest Punisher storyline, (issues #33 and onward, and they're up to issue #35 now as of this week) features Wolvie, Daredevil, and Spiderman all teaming up to take down the Punisher. (All three of these characters have been humiliated in Punisher's comic in the last 3 years...) So Wolvie does still plan on getting vengeance on Punisher for what happened in Punisher #16 and 17. Allthough, it should be noted that Garth Ennis writes Wolvie different than any other writer out there...

Also, I hear the Hulk will be stopping by this latest Punisher storyline...I dunno, I just flipped through issues #33 and 34 the other day while at the comic store, I didn't buy them...

			*	*	*

Wolverine v2 #189, v3 #4-6
Posted by Jeph! on November 13, 2003 at 21:39:30:
In Reply to: Re: Wolverine #183 
posted by Kevin on November 13, 2003 at 11:43:31:

Okay, Paul, here's the rest of 'em. I've stopped buying Wolverine v3 after #6, so I can't help you with the current storyline, but hopefully this should allow you to place "the Brothers".

-Jeph!


Wolverine #189:

"Good Cop / Bad Cop, part two"

One afternoon, evening, and night in New York. Full moon. Trees in silhouette, at night, with their leaves still on them  even though the trees seen in W2 #188 had fallen leaves. Hard to say what people are wearing in the daytime  but it's light jacket weather at night. This is Monday, the day after the final day of W2 #188, which was said to be a "Sunday" (and in case you didn't catch it, W2 #188 covers two days  pp.1-8 take place on a Saturday, and pp.9-22 take place on a Sunday. Even though Detective Brown and Tawanda Barnes are wearing the same clothes, the clock on the wall on p.10 reads 7:35 when Tawanda enters the station, and Brown claims that she arrived in the "morning"  making it 7:35 *am*. I don't know why Tawanda is wearing the same clothes, but Brown clearly slept in his.)


Wolverine v3 #4:

"The Brothers, part IV"

Follows directly from W3 #3. One cloudy, windy night in Westfall, Oregon, and the next morning at Cry's compound, an abandoned mine in the desert twenty miles southeast of town. Full moon. Jacket weather, possibly because of the wind  Logan seems fine in short sleeves. Green leaves on trees, but plenty of fallen leaves  still green  blow by. The issue begins at 11pm in town and ends at sunup at the compound  midnight likely falls between pp.17-18.


Wolverine v3 #5:

"The Brothers, part V"

Sundown, nighttime, and the next morning at Cry's compound in Oregon. The evening of the same day as W3 #4 pp.18-22. Full moon (again). Hats and jackets at night. Pp. 1-21 occur over a three-hour period beginning at sundown and ending at "dinner time", and p.22 occurs sometime the next morning.


Wolverine v3 #6:

"So, This Priest walks Into a Bar"

One rainy night at a bar in New York. "Three days" after the night of W3 #5, meaning two days after W3 #5 p.22. Nightcrawler mentions to Logan that he saw Shadowcat "maybe three, four months ago"  a reference to XU #38 (also by Rucka and Robertson). That issue took place on the one-year anniversary of Colossus' death in UX #390, which in turn occurred shortly after the Christmas events of X #109  I believe we placed UX #390 and XU #38 in subsequent very early Januarys, as college was in session in XU #38. That would place W3 #1-6 in March or early April. The way Kurt is speaking implies that he's seen Kitty more recently than Logan has  which means that XX #25-30, where Logan and Kitty costar, occur either before XU #38, or after W3 #1-6  they can't occur in-between the two. 

			*	*	*

Wolverine and recent X-Men chronology
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 15, 2003 at 16:14:32:
In Reply to: Wolverine v2 #189, v3 #4-6 
posted by Jeph! on November 13, 2003 at 21:39:30:

> Okay, Paul, here's the rest of 'em. I've stopped buying Wolverine v3 after #6, so I can't help you with the current storyline, but hopefully this should allow you to place "the Brothers".

Yes, it does -- quite nicely, too. Thanks! Here's the summary:

XU 38 -- Jan. 13-15
W2 188 -- Feb. 2
W2 189 -- Feb. 3
Spider-Man/Wolverine 1-4 -- Mar. 10-22
XX 20-23 -- Mar. 24-26
Wolverine/Doop 1-2 -- Mar. 27-Apr. 11
W3 1-5 -- Apr. 14-23*
W3 6 -- Apr. 25
XX 25-30 -- May 5-6
Logan's appearance in NM2 5 -- June 3
X 142-148 -- June 4-8

(*One small glitch = W3 2 is supposed to occur "a couple of months" after "December," but this could be a very loose reference.)

Now, about the current storyline in X-Men...

It looks like things will work out okay. It's established that this storyline occurs early in the summer semester at Xavier's, and that Magneto blows up the place shortly after NM2 6.

NM2 7 clearly occurs the following fall, not only given the autumn leaves present, but because Josh Foley's letter home mentions "this summer" in the past tense (referring to NM2 6) and it's apparent that he's been at the school for a while. Xavier is walking (again?) and the school itself is looking none the worse for wear, until Magma destroys part of it upon coming out of her coma "some days" before...

XX 34, in which Magma meets up with the X-Treme team. This places the current XX storyline (starting with XX 31) AFTER the current NM2 storyline, and thus likely in the fall as well.

(Sidebar: I'm not entirely comfortable with letting so much MU time go by; we'll see from other clues if fall actually ends up being topical here.)

But to make this work from a continuity perspective, the mansion's destruction and Xavier's crippling in the current New X-Men storyline will have to be undone somehow.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Wolverine and recent X-Men chronology
Posted by Jeph! on November 17, 2003 at 01:34:34:
In Reply to: Wolverine and recent X-Men chronology 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 15, 2003 at 16:14:32:

> Spider-Man/Wolverine 1-4 -- Mar. 10-22

I was under the impression that this series spanned 36 hours. Did you mean March 10-*12*?

> W3 1-5 -- Apr. 14-23*
> (*One small glitch = W3 2 is supposed to occur "a couple of months" after "December"...)

Why?

> Now, about the current storyline in X-Men...

Yeah, about that.

> NM2 7 clearly occurs the following fall, not only given the autumn leaves present, but because Josh Foley's letter home mentions "this summer" in the past tense (referring to NM2 6) and it's apparent that he's been at the school for a while. Xavier is walking (again?) and the school itself is looking none the worse for wear, until Magma destroys part of it upon coming out of her coma "some days" before...

> But to make this work from a continuity perspective, the mansion's destruction and Xavier's crippling in the current New X-Men storyline will have to be undone somehow.

Yeah, that -- or we ignore the "fall" references. Besides the "Xavier walking" bit in NM2 #7, note that Xavier still appears to be in charge at the school -- and over in NXM, he's promised to step down as headmaster in the upcoming autumn semester.

Implying, if it can't be autumn yet, perhaps this is simply -- LATER in the summer semester. They never explicitly say "fall", do they? And the autumn leaves can easily be ruled topical...

Give Josh Foley two weeks to settle in, make friends, and write home?

(By the way -- eyeing the gap between X #141-142 -- in #142, Logan says to Cyclops "Emma Frost got shot right after you took off." Does that imply that Scott has not been back to the mansion since before Emma was shot? I think it does -- it doesn't imply any time restriction on that gap, but it does ban any Cyclops-at-the-mansion appearances -- like the one in UX #429.)

At this point, I'm completely and utterly lost, calendar- and continuity-wise. I really need to sit back and wait for New X-Men to finish "Planet X" before I can make another move. I'm hoping like crazy that X #155-156 ARE being written by Chuck Austen, as rumored, because he'll probably lay in some inter-X-book continuity -- except we have to wait until April or May '04 to read them.

Yargh. Hey, let's drop the current stuff and go work on "Inferno". Yeah, that's the ticket.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Wolverine and recent X-Men chronology
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 17, 2003 at 07:05:34:
In Reply to: Re: Wolverine and recent X-Men chronology 
posted by Jeph! on November 17, 2003 at 01:34:34:

> > Spider-Man/Wolverine 1-4 -- Mar. 10-22

> I was under the impression that this series spanned 36 hours. Did you mean March 10-*12*?

This timespan includes the flashback in which Wolvie was abducted. The bulk of the story (with Spidey) would occur during the last few days of that span.


> > W3 1-5 -- Apr. 14-23*
> > (*One small glitch = W3 2 is supposed to occur "a couple of months" after "December"...)

> Why?

IIRC, there's a reference to it being "a couple of months" after a gun show that occurred in "December." I can't double-check this now, as I borrowed that issue from the library.


> > Now, about the current storyline in X-Men...

> Yeah, about that.

> > NM2 7 clearly occurs the following fall, not only given the autumn leaves present, but because Josh Foley's letter home mentions "this summer" in the past tense (referring to NM2 6) and it's apparent that he's been at the school for a while. Xavier is walking (again?) and the school itself is looking none the worse for wear, until Magma destroys part of it upon coming out of her coma "some days" before...

> > But to make this work from a continuity perspective, the mansion's destruction and Xavier's crippling in the current New X-Men storyline will have to be undone somehow.

> Yeah, that -- or we ignore the "fall" references. Besides the "Xavier walking" bit in NM2 #7, note that Xavier still appears to be in charge at the school -- and over in NXM, he's promised to step down as headmaster in the upcoming autumn semester.

> Implying, if it can't be autumn yet, perhaps this is simply -- LATER in the summer semester. They never explicitly say "fall", do they? And the autumn leaves can easily be ruled topical...

Yes, I'm leaning that way myself. It may be revealed that Xavier changes his mind about stepping down, but your intel about future issues of NM2 would end up pushing the current issue of that title to the summer. Remember also that the narration in X 142 refers to Emma's "murder" in X 139 as having occurred "last month," so the proposed gap between X 141 and 142 would be no more than eight weeks (say, if X 141 occurred at the beginning of June and X 142 occurred at the end of July).

> Give Josh Foley two weeks to settle in, make friends, and write home?

That time span, AND the time span of "two weeks" between pages 18 and 19 of NM2 7 both would have to fit in the aforementioned gap.


> (By the way -- eyeing the gap between X #141-142 -- in #142, Logan says to Cyclops "Emma Frost got shot right after you took off." Does that imply that Scott has not been back to the mansion since before Emma was shot? I think it does -- it doesn't imply any time restriction on that gap, but it does ban any Cyclops-at-the-mansion appearances -- like the one in UX #429.)

Hmm. That's right. Perhaps this storyline in UX occurs concurrently with the passage of time in X 138?


> At this point, I'm completely and utterly lost, calendar- and continuity-wise. I really need to sit back and wait for New X-Men to finish "Planet X" before I can make another move. I'm hoping like crazy that X #155-156 ARE being written by Chuck Austen, as rumored, because he'll probably lay in some inter-X-book continuity -- except we have to wait until April or May '04 to read them.

> Yargh. Hey, let's drop the current stuff and go work on "Inferno". Yeah, that's the ticket.


My...brain...hurts...

			*	*	*

One more thing
Posted by Jeph! on November 17, 2003 at 22:04:29:
In Reply to: Wolverine and recent X-Men chronology 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 15, 2003 at 16:14:32:

> W2 188 -- Feb. 2
> W2 189 -- Feb. 3

You may have missed it, but in my recent write-up of #189, I pointed out that #188 covers TWO days ... a Saturday (pp.1-8) and a "Sunday" (pp.9-22).

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Wolverine and recent X-Men: a double-take
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 15, 2003 at 16:22:13:
In Reply to: Wolverine v2 #189, v3 #4-6 
posted by Jeph! on November 13, 2003 at 21:39:30:

Okay, after sending my previous reply I read your most recent post in another thread. I'll reply to that separately, but if future issues of NM2 incorporate Magneto's destruction, that would mean that NM2 7 has to occur *before* the current story arc in New X-Men, and the amount of time between NM2 6 and 7 would require another gap somewhere. More later...

Paul 

			*	*	*

TIMESHADOW...TITANIUM MAN...REV. JACKSON TOLLIVER
Posted by Arthur Stein on November 09, 2003 at 17:45:53:

new entries marked **


TIMESHADOW

**XF 4 (23p3) voice only
XF 5
**XF 6 (7p4,17p1-p3)
XF 33


TITANIUM MAN/BORIS BULLSKI

TOS 83
**TOS 92 (12p3-p4) under the sheet and starting to move in Half-faces laboratory
TOS 93

.. .. .. .. ..

CHAMP 10
** IM 115-FB (10p7-11p4) referred to as The Other, revealed (as if you didnt know by the visuals) to be Titanium Man in IM 134 (30)
**IM 113 (13p4) voice only, (29p4-p5)
**IM 114 (15p4-p5) voice only, (16p2)
**IM 115 (17p4)
IM 134


TOLLIVER, REV. JACKSON

WOSM 41
**WOSM 42
**WOSM 43


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#132

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Mr. Campbell, Killraven/Guardians Chronology Note
Posted by John McDonagh on November 12, 2003 at 19:09:02:

Guardians of the Galaxy Annual#3 has the Guardians review their history, including the 2001 invasion of Earth.....and on page 7, this invasion (in which most of the major heroes died) is explicitly called the *second* Martian invasion. Hope this helps. 

			*	*	*

Re: Mr. Campbell, Killraven/Guardians Chronology Note
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on November 13, 2003 at 15:34:53:
In Reply to: Mr. Campbell, Killraven/Guardians Chronology Note 
posted by John McDonagh on November 12, 2003 at 19:09:02:

> Guardians of the Galaxy Annual#3 [...] 2001 invasion of Earth [...] explicitly called the *second* Martian invasion.

Thanks for the tip.

There was a *whole* lot more I wanted to contribute to this discussion back in August, but I hadn't (and still don't have) the time.

Suffice to say, I firmly stand by my view that the 1901 invasion happened in the common past that the KR/GOTG and Mainstream timelines share.

Of course, it'd be swell to hear what the Board of Directors thinks.

- SK 

			*	*	*

Re: Mr. Campbell, Killraven/Guardians Chronology Note
Posted by Jeph! on November 13, 2003 at 20:33:04:
In Reply to: Re: Mr. Campbell, Killraven/Guardians Chronology Note 
posted by StAkAr Karnak on November 13, 2003 at 15:34:53:

> it'd be swell to hear what the Board of Directors thinks.

Including those members that don't have ANY of the books in question?

In that case, I have to say that StAkAr's arguments swayed me more than Don's. Take that for whatever it's worth.

-Jeph!
(For my money, it was the bit about Doom's time platform that got me. Even though we HAVE seen it move cross-time -- once -- I think the overwhelming evidence on its use shows that it's generally intended to traverse the MAIN timeline only...) 

			*	*	*

TOMBSTONE...TORPEDO II...TRI-MAN
Posted by Arthur Stein on November 13, 2003 at 16:11:50:

new entries marked **


TOMBSTONE/LONNIE THOMPSON LINCOLN

PPTSS 165
**PPTSS 166
WOSM 66


TORPEDO II/MICHAEL STIVAK

DD 126
**DD127 (1) and (3p4) dead body


TRI-MAN

PPTSS 25
** PPTSS 26
** PPTSS 27
** PPTSS 28 (as bombdroid incarnation)


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#133

			*	*	*

Note to Paul B., about your gap in X #138
Posted by Jeph! on November 14, 2003 at 01:19:47:

Yes, I know you love the gap we invented in New X-Men #138, between pp.9-10. It allows you to place those summer references in summer where they belong.

However, re-reading, I've found some tidbits in the NXM series that indicate that there ISN'T a gap there -- or if there is, it's considerably smaller than we think.

In X #138, p.14 (post-gap), students are protesting outside Xavier's school, holding signs that say "fight for your rights" and "riot". If the Riot was months ago, have they been protesting for months?

On p.19-20, Emma seeks comfort in Scott's arms, saying "This last week has been hideous ... I just want to get away from all this crushing misery" and "Bereavement always fills me with an unforgivable lust". The "bereavement" refers to Sophie's death, and the strong implication is that the "this last week" reference does too.

And in X #139, p.22, the INSIDE of the mansion still bears the damage and graffiti caused by the Riot. If the Riot had occured months ago, don't you think they'd have cleaned Quentin's Omega sign off the wallpaper by now?

I know that, in terms of your calendar, you can't just shift X #138 p.10-on backwards -- there are too many "summer break" references in later issues of X and NM2 for that. But what about moving X #134-138 p.9 FORWARD in time?

Shortening the time between X #138 pp.9-10 by moving X #134-138 p.9 forward -- placing them in April or something?

And if some of the very many UX issues you've placed in that gap -- UX #422-434, and likely #435-436 as well -- get squeezed out by the shortening of the gap -- well, perhaps they can spill over into a possible gap between X #141-142.


A while back, if you remember, a poster named Harrison suggested a gap between X #141-142. After examining it, we found that the New Mutants v2 series had to fit in that area. I expressed concerns about what happens if the passage of time in NM2 exceeds the relatively small gap we have. And now, based on recent interviews with the NM2 writers, this may actually happen.

According to Nunzio DeFilippis and Christina Weir, they're currently working on plans to adopt the post-"Planet X" (X #146-150) status quo -- a burned-down school and crippled Prof. X -- into their THIRD story arc, beginning in NM2 #13. This means that all of NM2 #1-12 will have to be placed between X #141 and #146 -- and since #142-145 take place mere days before #146, that means that effectively, MOST of NM2 #1-12 will have to take place between X #141-142.

Which means we may need to widen the gap placed there, as Harrison suggested.

Which means, it's possible to place such UX story arcs as "the Draco" -- #429-434 -- into that newly-widened gap as well.


Just some thoughts ... mainly I wanted to flag up the reasons why there SHOULDN'T be a gap in X #138, and see what you thought...

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Note to Paul B., about your gap in X #138
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 15, 2003 at 17:08:00:
In Reply to: Note to Paul B., about your gap in X #138 
posted by Jeph! on November 14, 2003 at 01:19:47:

Hmm. I may be able to work with this, but I think the biggest problem will be that whole Heather-gives-birth (XU 45) after Alex-wakes-up (UX 419) conundrum, which exists because in XU 45 Warren uses the healing powers he discovers in the storyline that includes UX 419.

The birth of Heather's baby is fixed in the fall by previous references to her pregnancy in comics that are themselves tied into yet other titles.

Alex is supposed to leave on that archaeological dig in UX 421 after he "just got back" from his coma. The end of UX 421 continues into UX 422, in which the riot is mentioned, and the riot story is what we want to push forward to the spring.

So, can we place the huge, months-long gap ("later") between panels 1 and 2 of page 21 of UX 421, and chalk up Scott's "just got back" reference to brotherly love or somethin'? Not that easy, given that before the gap in UX 421, the archaeological trip is already planned as being "soon," and Kurt makes a big deal out of going with Alex and Lorna and stepping down as leader of the X-Men.

Do we put the gap in and proclaim that there was a change in plans and that the dig was postponed for months (e.g. funding was pulled from the expedition at the last moment and Alex's old teacher had to scrounge up some funds elsewhere)?

Please check these issues of UX to see if I'm missing other clues that would prohibit such a proclamation, because if we can create this new gap, we may be able to work the rest out.

BTW, Kurt would be available to appear with Kitty in XU 38 during this proposed gap (in January) because he's still cooling his heels at Xavier's.


--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Note to Paul B., about your gap in X #138
Posted by Jeph! on November 17, 2003 at 01:41:53:
In Reply to: Re: Note to Paul B., about your gap in X #138 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 15, 2003 at 17:08:00:

Man, all this stuff's doing my head in.

Hey, maybe we can pull a "Soldier X #11-12" on X #138 and claim that Xavier meant that the school will be closing in "exactly six WEEKS", not "days". Then we can close the gap in X #138, push X #138 back on the calendar to April or so, and open a gap in X #139 (between pages 20-21, during that tempting "later" notation.)

Naaah.

Like I said over in the other thread -- we really need to wait until X #150 comes out, then sit down and have a SERIOUS sort-through of all the references in all the books. This is fast becoming a train wreck, and it's obvious that SOME references are going to need to be ignored -- but which ones?

I guess we'll see. At this point I'm totally lost.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Note to Paul B., about your gap in X #138
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 17, 2003 at 06:49:41:
In Reply to: Re: Note to Paul B., about your gap in X #138 
posted by Jeph! on November 17, 2003 at 01:41:53:

> Man, all this stuff's doing my head in.

> Hey, maybe we can pull a "Soldier X #11-12" on X #138 and claim that Xavier meant that the school will be closing in "exactly six WEEKS", not "days". Then we can close the gap in X #138, push X #138 back on the calendar to April or so, and open a gap in X #139 (between pages 20-21, during that tempting "later" notation.)

> Naaah.

> Like I said over in the other thread -- we really need to wait until X #150 comes out, then sit down and have a SERIOUS sort-through of all the references in all the books. This is fast becoming a train wreck, and it's obvious that SOME references are going to need to be ignored -- but which ones?

It's inevitable that some references will need to be ignored, rationalized, or altered to make all this work. With so many continuity points spanning so many titles, it may be months before the definitive chronology/calendar is hammered out.

I may test out a few hypotheses in the meantime. I think I'll hold off a bit more on the rollout of the revised MU calendar until this is worked out a bit more and I can get the whole Spidey mess (a similar web of conflicting chronological clues -- hey, am I sounding like Stan Lee here?) sorted out with Antonio.


> I guess we'll see. At this point I'm totally lost.

I can't say I'm totally lost, as I have all (I hope) the chronological and temporal notes on the various issues involved. But yes, as each new issue comes out, I find myself weighing new, conflicting pieces of evidence and readjusting everything. Such is the life of a chronologist. :(

--Paul

			*	*	*

Okay, I think I've got it: ANOTHER X-Men chronology revision
Posted by Jeph! on November 17, 2003 at 22:00:12:
In Reply to: Re: Note to Paul B., about your gap in X #138 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 17, 2003 at 06:49:41:

Okay  since we're agreed that SOME references are going to need to be bent in order to make New X-Men's tight chronology work with those of the other titles, I started thinking how we could go about making it all work, while ignoring the MINIMUM number of references.

I think I've found a way  and all we have to do is re-interpret ONE offhand reference. Check this out:

You're trying to keep UX #416-421 in the "fall", right? Because they're before Heather Hudson's baby's birth. You're also trying to keep X #138 (pp.10-on, at least) and #139-141 in late May and early June, because of the many "summer break" references. That leaves 7-9 months of unfilled space between the two.

Also, we've been busting our asses trying to place all of UX #422-434 AFTER the Riot in X #138, because of one character's line in #422 referencing "the recent 'riot'." However, that's all the reference we get  and the word "riot" was in QUOTES in the issue. What if that character was referring to a DIFFERENT EVENT than the "Riot at Xavier's"? What if UX #422-434 came BEFORE X #138  and could fit into, and fill out, the 7-9 month gap you want to keep between UX #421 (fall) and X #138 (summer)?

What if "the recent riot" referred to X #122-126, where aliens attacked the school and battled the X-Men  an event which was heavily covered by the media, because they were all THERE, hiding in the Danger Room because the attack interrupted a press conference. Also, we KNOW the media blew the battle out of proportion  in UX #410, we see a paper with the clearly incorrect headline "mutant haven leveled", and Sammy's mother believes that the school "had some problems and a lot of students left"  also untrue as far as we know. It's only a small step for someone reading articles like this to start mentally referring to the battle as a "riot"

Give this chronology a shot. At this point it sure beats the success we've had trying to create gaps in X #138-141. For simplicity's sake, right now the below proposal mainly incorporates only Uncanny, New X-Men, and some direct crossovers like Exiles, but I'll expand on it once I get your initial thumbs-up. The best part is, as far as I can tell I'm only messing with the ONE reference  everything else seems to stand.


Short version:

X #122-133
UX #410-434
X #134-141


Longer version:

NEW X-MEN #122-126
"Imperial". The Shi'Ar Superguardian Elite attack the mansion during a press conference. This gets the school a lot of bad press, including some fairly exaggerated interpretations.

NEW X-MEN #127-133
Prof. X and Jean Grey go on a worldwide X-Corp goodwill tour.

UNCANNY X-MEN #410-415
Prof. X has returned to the school  one can assume that Jean returned with him, and indeed we see her in #410.

UNCANNY X-MEN #416-421
"Dominant Species". Prior to the Riot, because of Glob Herman's presence.

X-MEN UNLIMITED #45
Heather Hudson gives birth, an event that Paul wants to keep in the fall.

UNCANNY X-MEN #422-426
Someone mentions "the recent riot" in #422, but in the absence of any more specific references to X #136-138, they may well be talking about the well-publicized and much-maligned battle with aliens in X #122-126.

EXILES #28-30
"Unnatural Instincts". Occurring the day after UX #426.

UNCANNY X-MEN #427, 429-434
"The Draco". Cyclops appears in #429, and Xorn appears in #431, trying to recruit Carter for his Special Class  since we haven't seen the Special Class yet (it first appears in X #135), it's conceivable that in UX #431 Xorn is in the process of creating the class, trying to include Carter in his initial recruiting.

MYSTIQUE #1-6
After UX #429-434, where Mystique escapes from Abyss' abyss. Jean is still at the mansion. 

NEW X-MEN #134-141
Jean travels to Hong Kong. The Riot occurs, as does the beginning of the school's summer session.

NEW X-MEN #142-150
Late summer  Xorn is revealed as Magneto and destroys the school.


As I said before  I probably should wait until X #150 comes out  but I felt that this new way of looking at things holds so much more promise than our old method, trying to shovel issue after issue into a non-intended gap in X #138, that I had to share it.

I look forward to thoughts and feedback  from anyone and everyone. Harrison, still reading? Chime in!

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*


Re: Okay, I think I've got it: ANOTHER X-Men chronology revision
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 18, 2003 at 07:15:12:
In Reply to: Okay, I think I've got it: ANOTHER X-Men chronology revision 
posted by Jeph! on November 17, 2003 at 22:00:12:

Way to go, Jeph! This is worth a shot.

At first I thought that the reference to the "recent riot" was a justification for removing Samuel Pare from Xavier's and that your placement wouldn't make sense -- after all, why would Sammy's parents let him go to Xavier's in the first place (X 410-413) AFTER the well-publicized "riot" in UX 122-126?

Then I re-read the statement and it was a justification made by the governor of New York -- not Canadian authorities or Sammy's parents. Still, it does beg the question about why authorities permitted students to enroll after the hyped-up media attention given to the Shi'ar attack...

Paul

			*	*	*

Justification
Posted by Jeph! on November 18, 2003 at 12:55:33:
In Reply to: Re: Okay, I think I've got it: ANOTHER X-Men chronology revision 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 18, 2003 at 07:15:12:

> Way to go, Jeph! This is worth a shot.

Thanks! I'm adopting it as my new official version. :-)

> At first I thought ... why would Sammy's parents let him go to Xavier's in the first place (X 410-413) AFTER the well-publicized "riot" in UX 122-126?

UX #410 actually did touch on Sammy's parents' concerns, specifically in reference to the events of X #122-126.

> Still, it does beg the question about why authorities permitted students to enroll after the hyped-up media attention given to the Shi'ar attack...

Well, I suspect the logic goes something like this: New York City is constantly getting attacked and damaged by supervillains -- and yet the governor of New York can't declare his biggest city "unsafe". How can he fault a private school for mutants for having the same pitfalls as his biggest city? It would be hypocrisy, and could be perceived as racist towards a steadily-growing minority voting block (Mutant Town, in Alphabet City, as seen in X #127) that might cost him his re-election.

On the other hand, in UX #422, now that the governor has learned that the school is harboring FELONS (i.e., the Juggernaut) ... NOW the kids are in *specific* danger, not just the same general danger that all New Yorkers face. And now the anti-mutant Governor has heavy legal justification for doing what he's wanted to do for some time.

Referencing the "riot" as a reason to remove the students was simply another piece of legal ammunition -- not the MAIN reason Alpha Flight or the NYPD was there. And as we saw by the issue's end, all the children but Sammy were allowed to stay at the school, which means that the Governor wasn't serious about using the "riot"/attack as a rationale after all.

How's that? :-)

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Justification
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 18, 2003 at 19:56:30:
In Reply to: Justification 
posted by Jeph! on November 18, 2003 at 12:55:33:

> How's that? :-)

That's great, Jeph. I knew you'd come up with a suitable explanation :)

Not having to place a bunch of UX issues between the riot and the Xorn revelation will help tremendously, especially given Scott's and Jean's comings and goings. We'll still need to fit NM2 1-7 (and the next few issues, from the sound of it) into that gap (in which Scott is AWOL), but I don't believe this will create major problems.

Although one other thing's been bugging me, and you probably have a good explanation for this:

Bishop and Sage come in to investigate Emma's "murder" and they lock down the school. The attack on Emma is only partially solved -- Esme is fingered as a culprit and she escapes. Another person is revealed to have assisted Esme and the prime suspect is Scott. Then Bishop and Sage just pick up and leave, the lockdown is lifted, and Scott remains AWOL. No one seems anxious to find him and enough time passes for NM2 stories to happen. When Logan finally finds Scott, it's by accident.

So what's up with that? Because Emma was reconstituted by Jean, it was no longer a big deal to get to the bottom of things? No interest in finding Scott, or Esme for that matter? Was Xorn (Magneto) somehow manipulating things BTS? Did I miss something?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Justification
Posted by Jeph! on November 19, 2003 at 01:59:28:
In Reply to: Re: Justification 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 18, 2003 at 19:56:30:

> Not having to place a bunch of UX issues between the riot and the Xorn revelation will help tremendously, especially given Scott's and Jean's comings and goings.

And I'm mightily relieved about that. Splitting Jean's "one long trip" into two was a necessary evil, but splitting it into THREE just didn't sit well with me. And assuming that Scott came home between X #141-142 was just as bad.

I wonder where that poster, Harrison, got off to. It seems like he'd love this thread.

> We'll still need to fit NM2 1-7 (and the next few issues, from the sound of it) into that gap (in which Scott is AWOL), but I don't believe this will create major problems.

I don't think so either -- as long as Scott doesn't show up in NM2 #8-12. Keep them fingers crossed.

> Although one other thing's been bugging me, and you probably have a good explanation for this:

Actually, I don't. Luckily, it's not really a chronology-related issue -- it's more of a "bad plotting" thing. Morrison does this a lot; he seems to be so keen on getting into the next Big Idea that he doesn't pick up fully from the last one. How many times have we seen Dust since her introduction? How many times between X #138 and #146 did we see her, even though she was at the school?

My best explanation is that the X-Men ARE searching for Cyclops -- it's just that we don't see it. Bishop and Sage could have stuck around for a bit afterwards helping pick up the pieces, and despite what Logan says in #142 about finding Cyclops by accident, I doubt it's true -- he clearly tracked him down to recruit him for help against Weapon Plus. It's likely that after arranging a meet with Fantomex, he left the mansion promising Charles and Jean that he'd track down Cyclops and bring him back...

Who knows? It's Morrison. He paints in broad strokes.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Justification
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 19, 2003 at 06:46:54:
In Reply to: Re: Justification 
posted by Jeph! on November 19, 2003 at 01:59:28:

> > Not having to place a bunch of UX issues between the riot and the Xorn revelation will help tremendously, especially given Scott's and Jean's comings and goings.

> And I'm mightily relieved about that. Splitting Jean's "one long trip" into two was a necessary evil, but splitting it into THREE just didn't sit well with me. And assuming that Scott came home between X #141-142 was just as bad.

> I wonder where that poster, Harrison, got off to. It seems like he'd love this thread.

> > We'll still need to fit NM2 1-7 (and the next few issues, from the sound of it) into that gap (in which Scott is AWOL), but I don't believe this will create major problems.

> I don't think so either -- as long as Scott doesn't show up in NM2 #8-12. Keep them fingers crossed.

> > Although one other thing's been bugging me, and you probably have a good explanation for this:

> Actually, I don't. Luckily, it's not really a chronology-related issue -- it's more of a "bad plotting" thing. 

Well, we often do rely on logical, sequential plotting to determine proper chronology.


> Morrison does this a lot; he seems to be so keen on getting into the next Big Idea that he doesn't pick up fully from the last one. How many times have we seen Dust since her introduction? How many times between X #138 and #146 did we see her, even though she was at the school?

Well how about this for an even bigger "where were they?" During the RIOT, where was the cast of Uncanny?


> My best explanation is that the X-Men ARE searching for Cyclops -- it's just that we don't see it. Bishop and Sage could have stuck around for a bit afterwards helping pick up the pieces, and despite what Logan says in #142 about finding Cyclops by accident, I doubt it's true -- he clearly tracked him down to recruit him for help against Weapon Plus. It's likely that after arranging a meet with Fantomex, he left the mansion promising Charles and Jean that he'd track down Cyclops and bring him back...

So Logan only decided to get serious about finding Scott when he determined he had a use for him? And why *was* it so difficult to find him anyway? I can't recall if Cerebra was non-functional at this point, but what happened to the psychic rapport between Scott and Jean? Agh! 


> Who knows? It's Morrison. He paints in broad strokes.

I do enjoy Morrison's stories, but all those plot holes and loose threads I can do without.

Anyway, I look forward to your new X-chronology, and I'll fill in gaps to make sure we don't have problems with peripheral X-titles and issues you may not have.

Then watch, Cyke will show up in NM2 8-12 or some other thing will mess this up... ;(

--Paul

			*	*	*

I reply! :-)
Posted by Jeph! on December 10, 2003 at 02:06:00:
In Reply to: Re: Justification 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 19, 2003 at 06:46:54:

Heyyy, I never replied to this!

> Well how about this for an even bigger "where were they?" During the RIOT, where was the cast of Uncanny?

Hell, where are they during Magneto's attack in #146-150? He's got a big scoreboard with X-Men faces on it all crossed off, and only the New X-Men team is up there. Bah.

> > My best explanation is that the X-Men ARE searching for Cyclops -- it's just that we don't see it. ...despite what Logan says in #142 about finding Cyclops by accident, I doubt it's true -- he clearly tracked him down to recruit him for help against Weapon Plus.

> So Logan only decided to get serious about finding Scott when he determined he had a use for him?

Well, Logan's always been big on leaving people alone -- letting people cool off and get their heads straight in their own time, that sort of thing. He probably thought a little away-time would be GOOD for Scott.

> what happened to the psychic rapport between Scott and Jean?

That link was broken back in X #97, when Scott and Apocalypse merged. It's never been re-created, as far as I know.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Okay, I think I've got it: ANOTHER X-Men chronology revision
Posted by Harrison on December 09, 2003 at 19:18:45:
In Reply to: Okay, I think I've got it: ANOTHER X-Men chronology revision 
posted by Jeph! on November 17, 2003 at 22:00:12:


> 
> Short version:

> X #122-133
> UX #410-434
> X #134-141


> I look forward to thoughts and feedback  from anyone and everyone. Harrison, still reading? Chime in!


This rocks. I love your creative interpretation of the word "riot" to mean something other than the riot. Obviously not the intent of the writer, but a very plausable save.

I *still* hate to break up Jean's trip. I haven't checked these yet, but is there some compelling reason to favor the above over:

X #122-126
UX #410-434
X #127-141

?

Just wondering. I haven't read the rest of this thread yet, so maybe I shouldn't go tossing around suggestions. 

			*	*	*

Re: Okay, I think I've got it: ANOTHER X-Men chronology revision
Posted by Jeph! on December 09, 2003 at 21:56:24:
In Reply to: Re: Okay, I think I've got it: ANOTHER X-Men chronology revision 
posted by Harrison on December 09, 2003 at 19:18:45:

> is there some compelling reason to favor the above over:

> X #122-126
> UX #410-434
> X #127-141

> ?

Yup. Archangel's skin is blue in X #131 -- and it turns back to pink in UX #412. So your suggestion here can't work.

Mind you, I'm having a similar problem with "The End" ... post to follow...

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Okay, I think I've got it: ANOTHER X-Men chronology revision
Posted by Harrison on December 09, 2003 at 22:12:33:
In Reply to: Re: Okay, I think I've got it: ANOTHER X-Men chronology revision 
posted by Jeph! on December 09, 2003 at 21:56:24:

Can't we just chalk that up to a coloring error? Surely there have been real errors that were more dramatic.

			*	*	*

Jean Grey: what a trip!
Posted by Jeph! on December 10, 2003 at 00:28:49:
In Reply to: Re: Okay, I think I've got it: ANOTHER X-Men chronology revision 
posted by Harrison on December 09, 2003 at 22:12:33:

> Can't we just chalk that up to a coloring error?

We CAN -- but why SHOULD we? There's no real huge continuity glitch created by leaving things as they are.

The only reason to do so would be to allow Jean's absences from the mansion to be one long absence -- and there's no in-book evidence that Jean DIDN'T come home. In fact, there's a fairly clear inference that she DID: in X #128-133, she's travelling to multiple locations for short periods of time, WITH the Professor -- whereas in X #134-138 she's in one location, for a long period of time, alone. Sounds like two trips to me.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Note to Paul B., about your gap in X #138
Posted by Harrison on December 09, 2003 at 19:09:33:
In Reply to: Note to Paul B., about your gap in X #138 
posted by Jeph! on November 14, 2003 at 01:19:47:


> Which means we may need to widen the gap placed there, as Harrison suggested.

Ah, sweet vindication!

That's all. I have nothing constructive to add at this time.

			*	*	*

Re: Note to Paul B., about your gap in X #138
Posted by Jeph! on December 09, 2003 at 21:54:34:
In Reply to: Re: Note to Paul B., about your gap in X #138 
posted by Harrison on December 09, 2003 at 19:09:33:


> > Which means we may need to widen the gap placed there, as Harrison suggested.

> Ah, sweet vindication!

> That's all. I have nothing constructive to add at this time.

I wondered where you went. :-) Yeah, see, doesn't it make you happy? We didn't end up using your ENTIRE theory -- but part of it did prove useful ... so thanks!

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Tyrak
Posted by Dennis Lee on November 14, 2003 at 13:27:32:

Hello,

There are some omissions in the entry for Tyrak. He appeared in Avengers v.1 # 156 and 172, and, I believe, in # 155. In Avengers # 278, he notes that he 'once beat the Sub-Mariner senseless', referring to an ambush that occurred in Avengers # 156.

- Dennis Lee 

			*	*	*

Re: Tyrak
Posted by Arthur Stein on November 14, 2003 at 22:12:21:
In Reply to: Tyrak 
posted by Dennis Lee on November 14, 2003 at 13:27:32:

I just finished looking into that. Tyrak does not actually appear in AV 155 other than in the recap of last issue, but is definitely behind the scenes.(Attuma states  I assume TYRAK has made the necessary preparations?. Affirmed by an underling)


TYRAK

**A 154
**A 155-BTS 
**A 156
**A 172
A 278

			*	*	*

BLACK BOLT
Posted by RLG on November 14, 2003 at 18:05:31:

Black Bolt does not appear in DAREDEVIL #273.

- RLG 

			*	*	*

Wolverine in Terror Inc. and other Gap books
Posted by Scott on November 17, 2003 at 10:50:16:

I was wondering if anyone has worked out where Wolverine's appearances in Terror Inc. 9 & 10 might fit into his chronology (presumably some time before Wolverine 58). And does anyone know of any other Gap issues guest-starring Wolverine and where they might fit in? I'm working on a collection of his appearances up to Age of Apocalypse. Thanks! 

			*	*	*

Re: Wolverine in Terror Inc. and other Gap books
Posted by David Hall on December 05, 2003 at 13:24:46:
In Reply to: Wolverine in Terror Inc. and other Gap books 
posted by Scott on November 17, 2003 at 10:50:16:

Well these will presumably be added to the MCP, when Russ finishes off the 1993 gap.
But, as I have started rereading 1992-3, I have noticed several of those wolverine bookshelf format annuals, killing, evilution, and the second nick fury/wolverine one will need to be added. Also many many MCP issues featuring Wolverine to be added in. Oh, and if you're a completist, I believe Wolverine might appear in an alpha flight or two in this time, and in infinity crusade. I'm sure there are probably others, but that's what I've noticed so far.
1993 - Year of the Wolverine crossover. :)
Or is that every year since the late 1980's?

David

			*	*	*

TRI-SENTINEL...TRIAX...TULAK
Posted by Arthur Stein on November 17, 2003 at 15:49:05:

new entries marked **


TRI-SENTINEL

**ASM 329
ASM 351-FB


TRIAX

**WLOCK 3
**WLOCK 4
WIW 3


TULAK

A 31
H2 239
**H2 240
**H2 241
**H2 242


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#134

			*	*	*

A graph from the beginning until Contest Of Champios vol 1
Posted by Jimmy on November 19, 2003 at 10:17:34:

See the graph here:
http://medlem.spray.se/marvels/chronology.htm

The graph covers most of the Marvel Universe until COC vol 1.

I've also updated the program that makes it possible for you to make your own graphs. 

			*	*	*

INHUMANS in DAREDEVIL
Posted by RLG on November 19, 2003 at 17:09:16:

>> Medusa does not appear in DAREDEVIL #275.

>> Lockjaw DOES appear in DAREDEVIL #274.

- RLG 

			*	*	*

DR. JOANNE TUMOLO...TUNDRA...TWO-GUN KID
Posted by Arthur Stein on November 21, 2003 at 15:30:26:

new entries marked **


TUMOLO, DR. JOANNE

**CAT 1-FB 
(CAT 1  As far as I can see, Dr. Tumolos appearances in CAT 1 are ONLY in the flashbacks: FB1 6p5 - 11p3 and FB2 15p7 - 26p3.
CAT 2
**CAT 3-FB (6p2)


TUNDRA

**AF 24
**AF 38
**AF 55
**AF 64
XM 39


TWO-GUN KID/MATTHEW J. LIEBOWICZ/"MATT HAWK"/"CLAY HARDER"

WCA2 18
**WCA 19
**WCA 20
**WCA 21
**WCA 22
**WCA 23
M/CP 116/4


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#135

			*	*	*

Comic listings 
Posted by Maxx on November 23, 2003 at 13:24:08:

Hello, 
I'm sorry to bother everyone but I sent an e-mail to Mr. Chappell but I havn't gotten a reply for some time. I have several comic books the MCP may be looking for, particularly those included in the 1993-1994 gap including the Marvel 2099 series, and if the MCP needs any help I would be more then happy to contribute. I currently have listings for Generation X 22, 26, 28, 30, Underground Special, X-Factor 127, 132, and Bishop: X.S.E. Thank you for your time. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Re: Comic listings 
Posted by Administrator on November 23, 2003 at 18:43:23:

In Reply to: Comic listings posted by Maxx on November 23, 2003 at 13:24:08:

> I'm sorry to bother everyone but I sent an e-mail to Mr. Chappell but I havn't gotten a reply for some time. I have several comic books the MCP may be looking for, particularly those included in the 1993-1994 gap including the Marvel 2099 series, and if the MCP needs any help I would be more then happy to contribute. I currently have listings for Generation X 22, 26, 28, 30, Underground Special, X-Factor 127, 132, and Bishop: X.S.E. Thank you for your time. 

First of all, you're not bothering anyone by posting here.

I've received two emails from you, both offering to fill in information from the 1993-94 gap. For a hint on why you haven't received a response from me, please read the FAQ carefully. The link to the FAQ is over to the left.

Secondly, the books you've listed above are *not* from the 93-94 gap, they're from the second gap. We're actively seeking help on issues from the second gap. Check the "Closing the Gap" section (again, you'll find the link on the left). If you have any books listed on those pages, we look forward to hearing from you. You don't need to ask for permission. Just post what you have, here on the Board.

Thanks.
Russ

			*	*	*

Re: Comic listings 
Posted by Dave on November 23, 2003 at 23:44:16:
In Reply to: Re: Comic listings 
posted by Administrator on November 23, 2003 at 18:43:23:

Russ, 
My apologies I've been having trouble with my e-mail and I wasn't sure if you had recieved it. Also I just read the FAQ and again I apologise for not reading it before. The comics I listed were from the "Closing the Gap" section. Here are the listings if you wish to use them. 

From: kindredspirits.cjb.net/ 

GENERATION X #26:
Story Title: "Adrift"
Story: Scott Lobdell, Chris Bachalo, Todd Dezago, Pencils: Joe Bennett, Inks: Joe Pimentel
Characters in issue: White Queen, Banshee, Jubilee, Husk, Chamber, Synch, Skin, Monet, Penance 
Guest Stars: None
Guest Villians: Bastion

All of the kids are badly hurt and confused. Sean puts Emma in the infirmary thinking she is dead and sets out to find GenX. Jubi fights her way through Bastions headquarters. Monet goes ballistic and flies away, hoping to save themselves. Emma comes out of unconciousness and threatens Nightmare. Monet returns to the raft, exausted, and crashes into the water unconsious, Synch dives in to save her. Sean scans computers to find GenX when Emma steps in. Jubilee nearly escapes Bastion's headquarters but is re-captured.

From: kindredspirits.cjb.net/ 

GENERATION X #28:
Story Title: "Oh, Now I Get It..."
Story: Scott Lobdell, Chris Bachalo, Pencils: Richard Starkings, Joe Andreani, Inks: Al Vey
Characters in issue: White Queen, Banshee, Jubilee, Husk, Chamber, Synch, Skin, Monet, Penance 
Guest Stars: Glorian: Shaper of Dreams
Guest Villians: Daria

Starts on a sunken ship that was raised from the ocean. Everyone is in a dream world where they are living their "dreams". Skin is hung from the lookout cause he will not give in to this force. Jubilee and Daria talk. Skin confronts "Glorian, The Shaper of Dreams" who has risen the boat and "helped" GenX. Glorian thinks he is helping them, but Skin knows better. He ends up convincing Glorian to give them their lives back and they get zapped back to L.A....Skin's hometown. Glorian gave Angelo his wish...to be back home with his friends. Emma scans Sean's mind again and talk about if they are really helping GenX. There is a touching moment, they find an abandoned ship (too late!) and then recieve a distress call from the X-men. Jubilee fakes being lamed up and attacks Daria...Daria freaks out and......

From: kindredspirits.cjb.net/ 

GENERATION X #30:
Story Title: "Some Things Hurt More Than Cars and Girls"
Story: James Robinson, Pencils: Chris Bachalo, Inks: Al Vey, Eric Cannon
Characters in issue: White Queen, Banshee, Jubilee, Husk, Chamber, Synch, Skin, Monet, Penance 
Guest Stars: Daria
Guest Villians: None

Finally we see at least a small portion of Penance's mind in play. Penance is watching the conflict between Banshee and the White Queen while they argue whether or not they are going to agree to Emplate's demands...to give him Penance and he will reveal were GenX is. At this point in time, GenX is running from the Sentinels and have come across Tores' underground car forum. This is the chance for Monet to put down Chamber about his feelings towards Husk. Now we get a sappy display of affection and understanding between the two...'nuff said. Only problem is that the Sentinels are multipling while they talk. Back to White Queen and Banshee, looks like they ended the conversation...with one of White Queen's psionic lightning bolts to Banshee's head! She then psionically commands Penance to follow her to DOA (Emplate's sidekick) in order to hand her over to Emplate. At Bastions headquarters Jubilee is starting to lose it when Daria decides that she is a freak too and free's Jubilee. Now the weird yet interesting part...what do you do when you're faced with your death? Synch decides that he will kiss Monet...and she agreed! Better look out for those Sentinels guys cause here they come...

From: kindredspirits.cjb.net/ 

GENERATION X: UNDERGROUND SPECIAL:
Yes, the much awaited GenXU is here as of March 4th,1998! Originally supposed to be an annual, this one-shot by Jim Mahfood is a hit!(see the strip he has in GX#27, "Cookin with Jubilee") It's 3 seperate stories, mostly joke strips, which are titled: "The Big Game", "Banshee's Angel's", and "Half a Face". This comic even has neat extra's too..keep reading! You have to actually see the comic to see all the neat little jokes he's thrown around there....well onto the review!


The Big Game: Skin is absorbed with age old technology...he's obsessed with the Atari game:"Space Invaders"! Monet points out that she doesn't understand why, with all the technology they have, he's playing that old game. Eventually he manages to goad Monet into playing against him...he is the master, or so he thinks, of Space Invaders. The game starts with Monet...hours pass....4:30am....morning....finally at 2:15 in the afternoon with his quick coffee break and a heck of alot of sugar, Skin comes across Paige and asks her if she could stay with Monet to make sure she doesn't cheat so he can get some sleep. The next day....the competion is still raging with Monet winning. Skin's getting so frustrated that he can't see the controller for his flying skin. Now..24 hours after that, oh oh!! Monet's game is over! Skin is so anxious to make fun of her...what???? 585,000,000???!! As his turn rages on he is almost insane as he plays his heart out.....yes!!!! 585,000,001!!!! Skin won!!! Monet disagrees..."you only won by 1 point, Angelo"...(Skin)"Yeah, but I still won!!HA!!",(Monet)"Did you?" Hehehe...maybe she just let Skin win cause she was getting tired of the silly game....Monet leaves as everyone is staring at her until Everett asks her if she really let him win. She ends the strip with the simple phrase, "Silly Everett, I'll never tell...."



Jubilee's Scrapbook: Just like it sounds..it's a bunch of photos and drawings and stuff of Jubes that she has on a full page.


Banshee's Angels: It all starts in the bad part of town where Gator has captured Artie and Leech. Emma desperately wants them back and therefore goes to Cassidy Investigations to help her. With that in mind he brings out....Banshee's Angels!! The crime solving girls Monet, Jubilee and Paige set out to search for clues and they go to their informant...Bishop. (check out the fro..) He has no clue as to where Gator is but sends them down to the Lizard's Lounge in hopes that his goons will be there. Looks like they are in luck and a big battle ensues! (complete with Japanese writing too) As the gang is about to pull their guns, the angels pull out massave artillery and demand Gator's location. After a quick change of clothes, they head to his hideout..only to find that he's hooked Artie and Leech to a machine to create his "Army of Bad-Ass Robotic Super Pimps!!!" He brought the kids to his hideout to lure the angels there so he can use their mutant powers to create the super pimps! (say what? We're mutants??!!) With this, they turn the ghetoblaster on to play their theme music and the battle ensues!! (It's a cool fighting scene you have to see it) With too many robots gaining up on them they have to do something!! They turn up the gheto to "way too loud" that blows them apart!! With the job finished they go back to their headquarters and decide to celebrate by heading down to the Disco...alright! :)


Unofficial Generation X Bootleg Trading Cards:hehehe...exactly what it sounds like...photocopy the page and make your own cards!! You have to read the instructions...did I ever laugh!! :)


Half a Face:I can't really explain this story, sorry. It's basically a couple of pages listening to Chamber wallow in grief. He goes on about how his life sucks until he comes across a homeless man sitting in the alley. You'd definately have to read this one since I can't explain it without giving you a word by word detail.


Banshee's Angels T-shirt Design: Nuff said! photocopy the pic and use it to make your very own "Banshee's Angels" t-shirt!! You can bet that I'm going to do it!! :)


Generation X vs the Beat Generation: This is a joke addvertisement between the GenXers and the Beat writers. The Beat Writers threaten to flatten the world with their giant expresso cannon until the Genxers show up to foil their plans. How are they going to foil their plans?? By giving them the delicious taste of Hostess Twinkies of course!!! So they all get along and decide not to blow up the world after all..what a happy ending.

			*	*	*

Re: Comic listings 
Posted by Jeph! on November 24, 2003 at 13:30:27:
In Reply to: Re: Comic listings 
posted by Dave on November 23, 2003 at 23:44:16:

Hey Dave--

While these are useful plot summaries, they don't exactly help place the issue in continuity.

For example, Jubilee appears in Gen X #28 -- but at that time, she was also appearing in Wolverine, X-Men, and Uncanny X-Men. Where was Jubilee last seen prior to Gen X #28, and where is she seen next?

Also, which characters appeared in which stories in the Underground Special? Which stories were canon ("The Big Game") and which weren't ("Banshee's Angels")? Where in continuity -- between which issues of Gen X -- do each of the stories occur?

Without information like this, the write-ups you've given us have no real way of being properly included on the MCP.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Comic listings 
Posted by Dave on November 24, 2003 at 20:56:43:
In Reply to: Re: Comic listings 
posted by Jeph! on November 24, 2003 at 13:30:27:

Sorry about that Jeph. I'll rewrite them right away. Thanks for the help. 

Dave 

			*	*	*

Re: Comic listings 
Posted by Jeph! on November 25, 2003 at 12:26:13:
In Reply to: Re: Comic listings 
posted by Dave on November 24, 2003 at 20:56:43:

> Thanks for the help.

No problem. Also, check out the link below for some clues as to where Jubilee's appearances in Gen X #26, 28, and 30 occur in the grand scheme of Operation: Zero Tolerance.

-Jeph! 


Jeph's O:ZT map!

			*	*	*

Re: Comic listings 
Posted by Dave on November 26, 2003 at 20:44:32:
In Reply to: Re: Comic listings 
posted by Jeph! on November 25, 2003 at 12:26:13:

Jeph, 
In determining an issues story relation do I need to list the issue's chronology in relation to the present storyline or each indivudal character in determining the issues continuity ? 

Dave 

			*	*	*

Re: Comic listings 
Posted by Jeph! on November 27, 2003 at 01:51:30:
In Reply to: Re: Comic listings 
posted by Dave on November 26, 2003 at 20:44:32:

Both would be helpful, actually. Here's an example, using Gen X #26:

Although this issue probably takes place on the same day as Gen-X #25, Jubilee appears in UX #343 in-between the two. She next appears in Gen-X #27.

Alternately, a list would be helpful:

Gen-X #26
(follows fairly directly from Gen X #25 - same day?)

appearances:

Chamber (last in Gen X #25, next in Gen X #28)
Jubilee (last in UX #343, next in Gen X #27)
Skin (last in Gen X #25, next in Gen X #28)
...
etc.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Comic listings 
Posted by Dave on November 24, 2003 at 00:48:02:
In Reply to: Re: Comic listings 
posted by Administrator on November 23, 2003 at 18:43:23:

I hope this helps. :) 

Synopsis from: www.chronology.net/default.pl/cited/rd_xfactor/10

XF 127/1: 

Published: October, 1996 

Written: Howard Mackie 
Drawn: Jeff Matsuda/Al Williamson 

Appearances: 

X-Factor: 
Forge
Polaris 
Wild Child
Sabretooth
Mystique

Guests: 
Trevor Chase 
Valerie Cooper 
Bastion 
Graydon Creed 
Bowser
the Friends of Humanity's Larry and two other punk friends

Other Characters: 
Trevor Chase (once mistakenly referred to as Tyler)
Government Agents Lanning, Daniels, Banyon; 
Sgt. Frank Vitali 
Mystique (As Nurse Donna) 

Brief Syopsis: 
Trevor is a young mutant whom Mystique has secretly been trying to
help. He is chased down an alley by the Friends of Humanity, beaten, and
hospitalized.
The government has put X-Factor in restraints for a debriefing, but Mystique
has sneaked away. She goes to Trevor's bedside in the shape of a doctor and
swears vengeance. We learn that Onslaught has polarized society (even the nurse)
against mutants. Mystique finds the "Friends," who are just a trio of punks, and
terrorizes them, then impersonates one of them, and finds that her son Graydon is
to blame for the attack on Trevor.
Bowser interrogates each of the team members, who all refuse to admit the
existence of Shard.

Synopsis from: www.chronology.net/default.pl/cited/rd_xfactor/10

XF 132/2: 

Published: March, 1997 

Written: Howard Mackie 
Drawn: Jeff Matsuda

Appearances: 

X-Factor: 
Forge 
Polaris 
Wild Child
Sabretooth
Mystique
Shard 

Guests: 
Valerie Cooper
Jamie Madrox 

Brief Syopsis: 
Note: X-Factor Underground begins here.
Forge and Polaris, ordered to deliver Mystique to Bowser, instead announce
that X-Factor quits. They no longer trust the government nor want to be their pet
mutants. But they know the government won't just let the walk away.
Jamie visits his own grave and talks to Shard. they find Kyle spying on them,
evidently jealous. Shard yells at him, but after Jamie leave reveals that she is
under orders from Forge to develop a trusting relationship with Jamie.
Forge takes Mystique as Raven Darkholme to visit Trevor's home. She learns he
has been kidnapped, and gets a phone call there telling her to leave the house or
the boy dies. She does, and is nearly killed by an energy blast.
Polaris, Kyle, Shard, and Sabretooth are observed walking into their HQ, which
then explodes.
Forge and Mystique speed away in a car, shot at all the while. Forge then runs
the car off a bridge and into the Potomac.

Synopsis from: www.chronology.net/default.pl/cited/rd_bishop

BXSE 3/3: 

Published: March, 1998 

Written: John Ostrander 
Drawn: [Penciler] Steve Epting 

Appearances: 

X.S.E.: 
Bishop 
Malcom 
Randall 
Shard 

Fanatix: 
Rook (As Rook) 
Pulsar 
Shadowbox 

Guests: 
Rook (As Annabella Knox) 
Rook (As Jimmy Knox) 
Booger 

Brief Syopsis: 

Bishop refuses to surrender; Malcolm refuses to kill him. Instead,
he agrees to help him catch the Rook.
The Rook impersonates Hecate, planning to kill Trask and discredit the XSE.
Randall has turned Pulsar against the Rook, so when Bishop attacks to free him,
the Rook kills Pulsar, phases away with Shadowbox, then kills her.
The XSE pursue, finding the Rook in her lab beneath their own building
(formerly owned by Jerome Knox). They destroy all the Rooks grown bodies,
forcing it to return to its original. Turns out to be Jimmy Knox, a little boy.
The XSE catch him and congratulate themselves. 

			*	*	*

Conan Comics Chronology Articles from Conan Saga available online...in Portugese!
Posted by John McDonagh on November 23, 2003 at 14:55:53:

http://www.cronicasdacimeria.hpg.ig.com.br/cronologia13.htm
reproduces the Conan comics chronology articles from Conan Saga online........in Portugese

			*	*	*

Spider-Man Minis
Posted by staticlullabye on November 23, 2003 at 21:00:29:

Does anyone know where the following take place?
Spider-Man/X-Factor: Shadow Games
Spider-Man Mutant Agenda
Spider-Man Web Of Doom
Spider-Man Arachnis Project

Thank you very much 

			*	*	*

Paul's Avenger calendar
Posted by RLG on November 24, 2003 at 20:57:19:

Entries missing for the Hulk in calendar:
>>INCREDIBLE HULK (v2) #179
>>MARVEL FANFARE #11
>>QUESTPROBE #1

- RLG 

			*	*	*

Re: Paul's Avenger calendar
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 25, 2003 at 07:05:41:
In Reply to: Paul's Avenger calendar 
posted by RLG on November 24, 2003 at 20:57:19:

> Entries missing for the Hulk in calendar:
> >>INCREDIBLE HULK (v2) #179
> >>MARVEL FANFARE #11
> >>QUESTPROBE #1


Thanks for visiting the Year-By-Year feature at the Avengers Assemble website.

H2 179 and MFAN 11 are listed there, the former in January of Year Five and the latter in March of Year Eight (with various flashbacks listed separately). I didn't notice the Hulk in MFAN 11, however. Questprobe #1 indeed is not listed (I don't have the issue), but if someone would care to submit a brief synopsis, I will add it to my Year-By-Year file.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Paul's Avenger calendar
Posted by RLG on November 25, 2003 at 08:29:19:
In Reply to: Re: Paul's Avenger calendar 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 25, 2003 at 07:05:41:

>> Paul, I meant M/FEA #11 NOT M/FAN #11. M/FEA #11 features the Hulk and the Thing. I would imagine the it takes place in July of YEAR 4, keeping Ben's chrono in mind. 

>> I just looked again and H2 #179 is not on your calendar. The listings go like this:

JANUARY
H2 175 - 178
GSSS 1
JA 9 - 15

FEBRUARY
W2 144 (fb)
M/CP 59/1 (3rd fb)
H2 180 - 183

Also, I don't have QUESTPROBE #1 either.

- RLG

			*	*	*

Re: Paul's Avenger calendar
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 25, 2003 at 19:31:24:
In Reply to: Re: Paul's Avenger calendar 
posted by RLG on November 25, 2003 at 08:29:19:

By gum, you're right! Both H2 179 and M/FAN 11 appear in the list I sent to Van, but those entries seem to have been lost in the translation to html. It's not the first time we've had difficulties of this sort; some entries were actually repeated! Someday, I'll send Van all my updated files so that errors like this can be resolved and recent flashbacks and continuity implants can be reflected.

Anyway, as you surmised, H2 179 goes right after H2 178 and M/FEA 11 goes right before M/FEA 12.


> Also, I don't have QUESTPROBE #1 either.


It would be good to get QUESTPROBE #1 on the list. Any takers on a brief synopsis (with temporal references and character list)?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Questprobe #1
Posted by Arthur Stein on November 27, 2003 at 13:43:42:
In Reply to: Re: Paul's Avenger calendar 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 25, 2003 at 19:31:24:


Hope this helps....

Questprobe #1 August 1984

Opening scene is on a world in the distant reaches of Intergalactic space, where the pacifistic indigenous race is facing an world-threatening invasion by the Black Fleet.

Obispo elder council member
Dargancouncil member,philospher; advocates resistence over resignation
Many other unnamed council members


Next scene on Earth. Undisclosed time since previous scene, but enough time for council member Dargan to make his way to Earth.

Hulk is fighting a division of the Colorado National Guard who are trying to get him away from the Grand Canyon Tourist Area. The sun is mid-high and since later we see rafters just setting out, I place it around 10:00 a.m. 

Miles distant, not much later (10:30?) following the battle, the Hulk is on the edge of the Colorado River as it winds through deep canyons. He encounters the Chief Examiner (Dargan) who wants to analyze Hulks power. There are 4 rafters setting out who are in shorts and short sleeves. The Chief Examiner pursues the Hulk and forces a confrontation.

(estimate end around noon)


Hulk
Chief Examiner (Dargan)
4 rafters Ed, Ben, Gerry and Nikki(f)
numerous unnamed guardsmen

			*	*	*

Re: Questprobe #1
Posted by Peter Fabricius on November 27, 2003 at 14:07:24:
In Reply to: Questprobe #1 
posted by Arthur Stein on November 27, 2003 at 13:43:42:

> Dargancouncil member,philospher; advocates resistence over resignation


> Chief Examiner (Dargan)


Just two minor points.
It is Durgan, not Dargan. (at least in my copy)
And he is not the Chief Examiner, it is merely a construct, as shown in Quasar #37 to 42.

			*	*	*

Re: Questprobe #1
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 28, 2003 at 09:56:43:
In Reply to: Re: Questprobe #1 
posted by Peter Fabricius on November 27, 2003 at 14:07:24:

Thanks, Arthur and Peter. I've added QUESTPROBE #1 to my copy of the Marvel Year-By-Year Calendar, just before QUESTPROBE #3 in August of Year Ten. It should show up the next time I submit an update to Van Plexico at Avengers Assemble.

--Paul

			*	*	*

TYR...UATU...ULIK
Posted by Arthur Stein on November 25, 2003 at 18:18:43:

new entries marked **


TYR

T@ 2
**T 302
T 312

.. .. .. .. ..

T 326/2
**T 327
T 350


UATU

M/:LG 12
**FF 204-FB (14p1-p2) definitely before TTA 73/2-FB; might be before M/:LG 12
TTA 73/2-FB

.. .. .. .. ..

TTA 74/2
**TTA 75/2 (6p4-p5)
FF 60


ULIK

T 427
**T 428
T 430


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#136

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X-Men 6/7 vs. UTSM 21 and Alpha Flight Special 1991
Posted by Joe on November 26, 2003 at 09:40:31:

Hi! Newbie here, offering a few thoughts. Great work, everyone involved. This site is fantastic. 

1) The chronologies for the original X-Men team lists UTSM 21 after UX 6 and before UX 7. However, in UTSM 21, at the Coffee a Go-Go, Cyclops comments on the Professor's being gone. "Sorry Jean, with the Professor gone, I'm a little distracted." The Professor doesn't leave until UX 7 after the team graduates, and he says farewell to go hunt Lucifer. Wouldn't UX6, UX7, then UTSM 21 work better? If people are in agreement about this, it would apply to all of the original X-ers.

2) I could only find reference to AF SPECIAL in the chronology, which refers to the oneshot special from 1992. There was also a prior ALPHA FLIGHT SPECIAL limited series in 1991 (1-4). I couldn't find this in the chronology, or in the list of non-canon books. Perhaps it's reprint material and I didn't realize? :)

Anyways, thanks! 

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Re: X-Men 6/7 vs. UTSM 21 and Alpha Flight Special 1991
Posted by Jeph! on November 26, 2003 at 12:04:59:
In Reply to: X-Men 6/7 vs. UTSM 21 and Alpha Flight Special 1991 
posted by Joe on November 26, 2003 at 09:40:31:

Good catch on the X-Men thing.

> 2) I could only find reference to AF SPECIAL in the chronology, which refers to the oneshot special from 1992. There was also a prior ALPHA FLIGHT SPECIAL limited series in 1991 (1-4). I couldn't find this in the chronology, or in the list of non-canon books. Perhaps it's reprint material and I didn't realize? :)

Yep, it is -- it reprints AF #97-100.

-Jeph! 

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Re: X-Men 6/7 vs. UTSM 21 and Alpha Flight Special 1991
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 26, 2003 at 21:52:17:
In Reply to: X-Men 6/7 vs. UTSM 21 and Alpha Flight Special 1991 
posted by Joe on November 26, 2003 at 09:40:31:

> 1) The chronologies for the original X-Men team lists UTSM 21 after UX 6 and before UX 7. However, in UTSM 21, at the Coffee a Go-Go, Cyclops comments on the Professor's being gone. "Sorry Jean, with the Professor gone, I'm a little distracted." The Professor doesn't leave until UX 7 after the team graduates, and he says farewell to go hunt Lucifer. Wouldn't UX6, UX7, then UTSM 21 work better? If people are in agreement about this, it would apply to all of the original X-ers.


Yes, and furthermore, UTSM 21 shows Bobby and Hank introducing their teammates to the Coffee--Go-Go, where the two had been in UX 7. Good catch, Joe.

--Paul 

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Placement of scenes from Double-Shot #1
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 28, 2003 at 11:21:24:

I just picked up Marvel Double-Shot #1, featuring stories of the Hulk and Thor. I don't remember any previous posts about this issue, so can anyone place these stories chronologically?

The first story is a Hulk tale that occurs sometime after She-Hulk debuted and both her and Bruce's identities are known by at least Thunderbolt Ross and Betty Ross.

The second story consists of a number of full-page panels showing Thor over the span of many years, as an admirer (Elise) of his writes him letters. I don't know how many of these panels, if any, show events that have been published in other comics. The breakdown is:

page 1 = Thor and Captain America (so post-A 4) triumph over an army carrying spears and axes. Trolls, perhaps? Elise is six.

page 2 = Thor saves Elise and her family when a monster (which I don't recognize) destroys a bridge in New York City. Elise may be around eleven.

page 3 = Peter Parker snaps a photo of Cap, Thor, and Scarlet Witch during "Thank an Avenger Day," which occurs around the time Elise sends her letter, dated "October 25." Elise is in high school (thus it's eight to twelve years after page 1; however, Wanda's costume -- with its bared midrift and headpiece that does not go around the jaw, suggests placement around A 37).

page 4 = Thor battles Ulik, presumably around the time Elise sends a letter to Thor dated "March 18." Elise is an adult and is expecting the birth of her son Zachary in June.

page 5 = Thor stands at the head of the Asgardian army against the backdrop of Asgard, presumably around the time Elise sends an undated e-mail. Zachary is two.

page 6 = Thor is seen lying unconscious amidst rubble in an "artist's rendition," presumably around the time Elise sends Thor a letter after the May death of Zachary (probably the July after or later, as the death is mentioned as occurring "in May," not "last month").

page 7 = Elise imagines seeing Thor standing behind her doctors (so not an actual Thor appearance) while on her deathbed, from which she writes a letter dated "January 15." This scene occurs sometime after the birth of Elise's daughter, Mia.

page 8 = Thor soars above Manhattan, presumably around the time six-year-old Mia writes him a letter.

All renditions of Thor show him in his classic costume.

Anyone care to propose placement of these stories and scenes?

--Paul

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Re: Placement of scenes from Double-Shot #1
Posted by Kevin on November 28, 2003 at 12:10:32:
In Reply to: Placement of scenes from Double-Shot #1 
posted by Paul Bourcier on November 28, 2003 at 11:21:24:

> I just picked up Marvel Double-Shot #1, featuring stories of the Hulk and Thor. I don't remember any previous posts about this issue, so can anyone place these stories chronologically?

> The first story is a Hulk tale that occurs sometime after She-Hulk debuted and both her and Bruce's identities are known by at least Thunderbolt Ross and Betty Ross.

This story's chronology, (and some other comments on the Double Shot issues) were handled back in a thread posted by Sean back on May 24th, 2003, (So long ago? Feel's like only yesterday...)

I don't know if the Thor story was truly discussed, but as for this Hulk/She-Hulk story, Andy Holcombe said it best, and I followed up, with the following cut and pasted comments:

Andy: > Glen Talbot dies in Incredible Hulk (vol. 2) #260. Betty Ross joins Rick Jones in his search for the Hulk in #261 or 262. They meet the Hulk/Banner in #263. They spend #264-267 travelling to the deactivated Gamma Base. In #269, events are set in motion that lead to the Hulk with Banner's brain in #272. General Thunderbolt Ross returns to active duty in #264. My vote is to set the Marvel Double Shot story between #267 and 269. There's an indefinite time span for the Hulk during these three issues.


Kevin: Couldn't have said it better myself. I would put Banner/Hulk appearing in this story just prior to Hulk #269, and She-Hulk appearing here after Savage She Hulk #25, but before Avengers #221. But again, this is just my humble opinion, and nothing more.

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Re: Placement of scenes from Double-Shot #1
Posted by Paul Bourcier on November 28, 2003 at 16:49:13:
In Reply to: Re: Placement of scenes from Double-Shot #1 
posted by Kevin on November 28, 2003 at 12:10:32:

Ah, yes. I remember this now, and I have updated my files accordingly. I believe the Thor story is still up for discussion.

Thanks, Kevin.

Paul 

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ULTIMA...UNDERTOW...UNION JACK
Posted by Arthur Stein on November 29, 2003 at 07:41:56:

new entries marked **


ULTIMA

**S-H 9
S-H 10


UNDERTOW

**NM@ 5
AWC@ 5/3


UNION JACK/LORD MONTGOMERY FALSWORTH

INV 41
**CA 253
CA 254


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#137

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Wolverine/Punisher: Revelation
Posted by Paul O'Brien on November 29, 2003 at 16:26:19:

I see that the WOLVERINE/PUNISHER: REVELATION miniseries is listed, not under Wolverine's chronology, but under the chronology for the Skrull impostor who replaced Wolverine in the X-Men during the second half of 1999.

No doubt there were compelling reasons for concluding that the real Wolverine didn't appear in one of his own miniseries... but out of curiosity, what were they? 

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Re: Wolverine/Punisher: Revelation
Posted by Jeph! on November 30, 2003 at 00:29:25:
In Reply to: Wolverine/Punisher: Revelation 
posted by Paul O'Brien on November 29, 2003 at 16:26:19:

> the WOLVERINE/PUNISHER: REVELATION miniseries is listed...under the chronology for the Skrull impostor who replaced Wolverine.

That's fairly odd...

> No doubt there were compelling reasons for concluding that the real Wolverine didn't appear in one of his own miniseries... but out of curiosity, what were they?

Well, I can make a case that it WASN'T the Wolverine skrull. The flaw in 'Skrullverine' was his lack of a healing factor -- he apparently relied on avoiding injuries to compensate for this. However, in the "Revelation" miniseries, not only is Wolvie able to recover from direct contact with Revelation's death-spores, but the Punisher shoots him point-blank in the forehead and he shrugs it off.

This has GOT to be the real Wolverine.

-Jeph! 

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Re: Wolverine/Punisher: Revelation
Posted by ShadZ on December 01, 2003 at 11:02:25:
In Reply to: Re: Wolverine/Punisher: Revelation 
posted by Jeph! on November 30, 2003 at 00:29:25:

(I don't know much about 'Skrullverine' and have not read WOLVERINE/PUNISHER: REVELATION, so my comments are just based on my general knowledge about Skrulls)

> Well, I can make a case that it WASN'T the Wolverine skrull. The flaw in 'Skrullverine' was his lack of a healing factor -- he apparently relied on avoiding injuries to compensate for this. 

Couldn't he also use shapeshifting to simulate a healing factor? Certain injuries that really bother a human, like stab wounds and gunshots, aren't a big deal to a Skrull. Once the Skrull gets over the initial shock, loss of 'blood', etc (and assuming a vital organ was not damaged), he can change his body shape so the wound is closed, no healing period necessary (or worry about infection). A skillful Skrull could make this process resemble Wolverine's healing power.

> However, in the "Revelation" miniseries, not only is Wolvie able to recover from direct contact with Revelation's death-spores, 

An alien Skrull may simply not be vunerable to a disease meant to infect Earth lifeforms

> but the Punisher shoots him point-blank in the forehead and he shrugs it off.

That's harder to explain. While I believe a Skrull could survive a gunshot wound to the head IF his 'brain' happened to be elsewhere in his body at the time, a Skrull would have a hard time simulating Wolverine's indestructible, inpeneratable skull.

ShadZ 

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Re: Wolverine/Punisher: Revelation
Posted by Jeph! on December 04, 2003 at 23:20:02:
In Reply to: Re: Wolverine/Punisher: Revelation 
posted by ShadZ on December 01, 2003 at 11:02:25:

> Couldn't he also use shapeshifting to simulate a healing factor? Certain injuries that really bother a human, like stab wounds and gunshots, aren't a big deal to a Skrull ... A skillful Skrull could make this process resemble Wolverine's healing power.

I agree, and this is how I explain an erroneous use of Skrullverine's "healing factor" in Hulk (Incredible Hulk v3) #8. However, this Skrull was brainwashed into thinking he WAS Wolverine -- a deep enough conditioning to fool telepaths. therefore, any use of his morphing power to simulate healing would have been completely subconscious.

> > in the "Revelation" miniseries ... Wolvie [is] able to recover from direct contact with Revelation's death-spores... 

> An alien Skrull may simply not be vunerable to a disease meant to infect Earth lifeforms

I'd agree, but later in the series Wolvie finds that prolonged exposure to the spores WAS slowing him down after all. The inference was that his healing factor kept him well up to a point -- but even it was eventually overwhelmed.

> > but the Punisher shoots him point-blank in the forehead and he shrugs it off.

> That's harder to explain. While I believe a Skrull could survive a gunshot wound to the head IF his 'brain' happened to be elsewhere in his body at the time, a Skrull would have a hard time simulating Wolverine's indestructible, inpeneratable skull.

In X-Men #95 or so, after the death of the original Skrullverine, Skrull scientists created a version that DID contain a healing factor of sorts -- this version was killed by a point-blank energy blast to the head, from a Skrull weapon.

Now, if a Skrull with a SUPERIOR healing factor to Skrullverine was killed by a point-blank energy blast to the head from a Skrull weapon, then surely Skrullverine, with NO healing factor, would have been killed by the Punisher's point-blank energy blast to the head -- as the Punisher was weilding a weapon manufactured in HEAVEN ITSELF.

Since the blast didn't even slow Wolvie down -- we can safely infer that it really WAS Wolverine after all.

-Jeph! 

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Re: Wolverine/Punisher: Revelation
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 06, 2003 at 20:22:41:
In Reply to: Re: Wolverine/Punisher: Revelation 
posted by Jeph! on December 04, 2003 at 23:20:02:

> Now, if a Skrull with a SUPERIOR healing factor to Skrullverine was killed by a point-blank energy blast to the head from a Skrull weapon, then surely Skrullverine, with NO healing factor, would have been killed by the Punisher's point-blank energy blast to the head -- as the Punisher was weilding a weapon manufactured in HEAVEN ITSELF.

It's been a long time since I've gone anywhere near those issues - and frankly, I've thrown them out - but I have a vague recollection that the celestial weapons may have been in some way limited to hurting baddies.

If so, maybe the Skrull Wolverine wasn't affected because he isn't actually evil. Perhaps he's just a well-meaning Skrull serving the Skrull national interest. 

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Wolverine 54
Posted by David Hall on November 30, 2003 at 18:05:21:

I believe that Wolverine 54 is in the wrong place in the MCP.

In this issue, Logan is still wearing his brown costume. (On the cover it's yellow, know, but not inside the issue.) This places this issue, before Wolverine 48-50, and the switch back to the yellow costume. 

The listing should read:
HOD 
W2 54
W2 48

Also Rogue's listing should be changed to read:
MCp 89/4
W2 54
X 4


David Hall 

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Re: Wolverine 54
Posted by Jeph! on December 01, 2003 at 01:24:54:
In Reply to: Wolverine 54 
posted by David Hall on November 30, 2003 at 18:05:21:

In my mind, there should be more compelling evidence than a change of clothes to prompt us to place two issues of the SAME TITLE out of their published order...

Is there any other evidence that this story takes place in the past?

-Jeph! 

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Re: Wolverine 54
Posted by David Hall on December 01, 2003 at 11:34:30:

In Reply to: Re: Wolverine 54 posted by Jeph! on December 01, 2003 at 01:24:54:

Well let's look at where it is now, after Wolverine 59 (which itself occurs post issue 65).....There's no compelling evidence for it to happen in the future, Other than it Doesn't happen in between 53 and 55. (This was also the case for issues 58 and 59, which occur after issue 65.)

Basically the events in 53 lead directly into the events in 55. This is already acknowledged by the MCP. What I would like to do is move Wolverine 54 from being listed sometime AFTER Wolverine 65, to being listed right before Wolverine 48. I like this placement better for two reasons:

1. costume. There is a big deal made in Wolverine 50 about the change in Wolverine's personality, being reflected by the change in costume. It would be a minor continuity error for him to change into the brown costume without a reason so soon after Wolverine 50. This solves that issue.

2: This placement puts this issue 6 issues ahead of the actual #, instead of 11 issues after. I usually like to put issues closer to their publication date, IF the other evidence allows.


David

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Re: Wolverine 54
Posted by Jeph! on December 01, 2003 at 12:31:47:
In Reply to: Re: Wolverine 54 
posted by David Hall on December 01, 2003 at 11:34:30:

That's all I needed to hear. Good show. :-)

Shatterstar and Cannonball appear in that issue as well -- what do you think of their current MCP placement? Right now we have W2 #54 between X-Force #5-6 (which already doesn't line up with where it's currently placed in Wolvie's chronology) -- if we're trying to place W2 #54 in the area of W2 #47-48, then in terms of publication order, should we try to goose it back a bit in Shatty's and Cannonball's chronologies? Between X-Force #1-2, or between #4-5? There are minor gaps there where a single nighttime adventure could occur...

-Jeph! 

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Re: Wolverine 54
Posted by David Hall on December 01, 2003 at 20:05:37:
In Reply to: Re: Wolverine 54 
posted by Jeph! on December 01, 2003 at 12:31:47:

Jeph, I wouldn't have any trouble leaving it between X-Force 5 and 6.

But let's dig deeper. We are attempting to put Wolv 54 around Wolv 48, which has a cover date of November 1991. X-Force 5 is cover dated Dec. 1991. X-Force 6 is Jan. 1992.

So, from the cover date perspective, it could go in between 4 and 5. There's really nothing in #5 which precludes this. 5 opens with X-Force having an argument about events from X-Force 3 and 4, but that could just as well take place a few days after 4 ends.

Judging from content, it seems that Wolv 54 was probably comissioned as a filler issue which could have ran at any time, so we can't use a cover date from Wolv. 48 as 'absolute proof', nor does issue content provide 'proof' as far as Shatterstar and Cannonball's app.

My personal preference is to leave it between X-Force 5 and 6, based on the following reasoning, in 5 Shatterstar is working out rather heavily when Feral busts in on him. Wolv 54, shows Shatterstar basically out looking for a good fight. If the group has just come back from one, say in X-Force 4 that attitude wouldn' make as much sense as it does between 5 and 6. Then again we are talking about Shatterstar.....

Dave

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Re: Wolverine 54
Posted by Jeph! on December 02, 2003 at 15:29:41:
In Reply to: Re: Wolverine 54 
posted by David Hall on December 01, 2003 at 20:05:37:

Hmm. There really isn't much inter-book crossover at that time, is there?

I mean, I remember that X-Men #1-5 take place before Uncanny #281, and X-Factor #71 occurs before X-Men #1 ... but other than that, there aren't many other clues.

X-Force #5 states that "Val Cooper's X-Factor unit isn't ready", but that doesn't really imply anything.

So, yeah, until we eventually discover evidence that tells us where X-Force #1-5 occur in relation to the main X-titles, I guess we can keep Shatterstar and Cannonball's appearances in Wolverine v2 #54 in-between X-Force #5-6, where they are now.

-Jeph! 
