Captain America, The Red Skull, and Tales of Suspense.
Posted by Mart on December 01, 2003 at 12:38:22:

Just a little confusion in the placement of issues. The Red Skulls TOS appearences (66, 67, 68) are placed prior to Invaders #5 and #6. However on Captain America's chronology list, the TOS issues are placed after the Invaders series.

Just wondering which one it's supposed to be.

			*	*	*

Re: Captain America, The Red Skull, and Tales of Suspense.
Posted by Ron Flick on December 13, 2003 at 15:09:07:
In Reply to: Captain America, The Red Skull, and Tales of Suspense. 
posted by Mart on December 01, 2003 at 12:38:22:

In my opinion, the Tales of Suspense issues have to be considered later, since they show American troops taking part in military action on the European continent. This would place them no earlier than 1943. The Invaders issues take place in the first few months of 1942.

Spirit of '76/Ron Flick 

			*	*	*

Foreigner stats SNAFU?
Posted by John Omohundro on December 02, 2003 at 15:29:10:

Quick question, folks:

I have THE OFFICIAL HANDBOOK OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE, DELUXE EDITION (all 20 issues, plus the 8-issue UPDATE '89) and I'm on my way to collecting the MASTER EDITION of the HANDBOOK--the first shipment of 19 issues (out of 36) arrived today.

I also purchased Volume 4 (the SPIDER-MAN volume) of THE MARVEL ENCYCLOPEDIA recently. 

My question is this: WHY do the Handbooks (in Update '89, Issue #3, and Issue #26, respectively) list the Foreigner as 6'2" tall, and 180 pounds, while the ENCYCLOPEDIA lists him as 6'2" tall, and 240 pounds--the SAME stats (height-/weight-wise, at least) as Captain America in Issue #2 of the DELUXE EDITION.
Both the MASTER EDITION Handbook and Volume 4 of THE MARVEL ENCYCLOPEDIA list Cap at 6'2" tall and 220 pounds now--apparently, he lost a little weight when the Super-Soldier Serum was removed from his body via an emergency blood transfusion several years ago (and I *AM* aware that it has since regenerated :)).

Personally, I think that 240 is closer to the mark. Forry (to use Spidey's nickname from PPTSSM Volume 2, Issue #210) is a pretty good-sized guy--at least as big as Cap. 

Does anyone know anything about this apparent discrepancy in The Foreigner's vital statistics, or should I just chalk it up to a mistake on the part of the writers which somehow slipped past an editor?

Any comments would be appreciated. 

			*	*	*

Re: Foreigner stats SNAFU?
Posted by Jeph! on December 02, 2003 at 15:35:44:
In Reply to: Foreigner stats SNAFU? 
posted by John Omohundro on December 02, 2003 at 15:29:10:

> My question is this: WHY do the Handbooks...list the Foreigner as 6'2" tall, and 180 pounds, while the ENCYCLOPEDIA lists him as 6'2" tall, and 240 pounds...

After being defeated by Spider-Man for the umpteenth time, the Foreigner got very depressed and began eating pies like a motherf*cker.

> Does anyone know anything about this apparent discrepancy in The Foreigner's vital statistics, or should I just chalk it up to a mistake on the part of the writers which somehow slipped past an editor?

I'm guessing "mistake", followed shortly by "nobody at Marvel really cares about 'the Foreigner' all that much".

> Any comments would be appreciated. 

Even those? :-)

-Jeph
maybe the Foreigner could use some of those diet pills in the ads that keep spamming this board... 

			*	*	*

Re: Foreigner stats SNAFU?
Posted by John Omohundro on December 03, 2003 at 10:07:30:
In Reply to: Re: Foreigner stats SNAFU? 
posted by Jeph! on December 02, 2003 at 15:35:44:

Ha-ha, Jeph. VERY funny. :)

Possible, but given that The Foreigner is such a physical fitness buff, I don't think so. If the discrepancy wasn't a mistake, it's just as likely that, in the intervening years (between 1992, when he appeared in Volume 26 of THE OFFICIAL HANDBOOK OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE (MASTER EDITION) and earlier this year, when Volume 4 of THE MARVEL ENCYCLOPEDIA was published, he could have "bulked up" a bit by further intensifying his already intensive exercise regimen, or perhaps resorting to perfomance-enhancing chemicals, such as anabolic steroids, or newer substances such as androstenedione or creatine. 

After all, 240 pounds on a 6' 2" frame is NOT heavy. Elvis Presley weighed that much, and the only reason he looked overweight was because he ate the wrong foods and didn't take proper care of himself (lack of exercise and drug abuse).

Not meaning to argue, mind you. It may very well be a mistake. I'm just looking at it from another angle.

			*	*	*

Re: Foreigner stats SNAFU?
Posted by Stefan A. on December 12, 2003 at 20:20:16:
In Reply to: Re: Foreigner stats SNAFU? 
posted by John Omohundro on December 03, 2003 at 10:07:30:

I'm 6'3 and about 220 pounds and I look fairly average, so I agree that 240 aren't too much on a guy that tall. Most muscle-builders my height weigh more than me. 

			*	*	*

Question about DD #139 and DD @4
Posted by RLG on December 03, 2003 at 15:25:13:

>>Why is DD @4 placed AFTER DD #139? On the first page of DD #139, Daredevil clearly states that he has recently teamed-up with Namor and the Black Panther (DD @4.) How about moving DD#139 to just before DD #140?

DD 137
IM 89
DD 138
GR2 20
**T 233 (should be moved to earlier date, but that's another story)
DEF 40
M/TU 51
WBN 42-BTS
**DD 139
DD @4
DD 140


- RLG 

			*	*	*

Re: Question about DD #139 and DD @4
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 03, 2003 at 20:33:20:
In Reply to: Question about DD #139 and DD @4 
posted by RLG on December 03, 2003 at 15:25:13:

Good call! This placement is actually suggested in Marvel Comics Index #9B. What got confusing were the subsequent before and after appearances in the Official Marvel Indexes that followed, particularly the omission of Iron Man's appearance in WBN 42-43 from OMITTA2 #2. (Don't ask me why that matters -- it's a long story.)

Your message forced me to re-examine my own placement of Daredevil and Iron Man during this time. I propose the following arrangement for DD:

(October)
IM 89
DD 138
GR2 20
DD@ 4
DD 139
DEF 140
(November)
M/TU 151
(December)
DD 140
DD 141
DD 142
DD 143
DD 144
MCSS 1
WBN 42 (I imagine a full moon is here, perhaps to coincide with that seen in DEF 50)
A 159 (Christmas Eve)
X 98 (Christmas Eve)

And yes, the appearance in T 233 should be a year earlier (in December), between COH 2 (which is after DD 119) and DD 120.

Iron Man's appearance in WBN 42-43 should be moved to between MCSS 1 and A 157. I'm updating my working draft of Avengers Year-By-Year accordingly.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Question about DD #139 and DD @4
Posted by RLG on December 04, 2003 at 05:18:35:
In Reply to: Re: Question about DD #139 and DD @4 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 03, 2003 at 20:33:20:

Glad I could help. I agree with your revisions. While this is fresh on our minds, I have one quick point for the future Calendar: the Early Years.

Quick recap - DD goes to California BTS between DD #137 & #138 to rescue Karen Page. This is start of the crossover that ends in GR2 #20. In DD #139, DD (back in NYC) comments about his recent visit with Karen. OK, so far the plot threads, chrono, and calendar placement all mesh.

However, in DD #140 (pg 7, panel 2), as DD arrives at Grand Central Station to confront the Beetle and the Gladiator, he states, "Back from the coast TWO days and I still haven't spent any time with Heather." Obviously, the "coast" reference is meant to add a sense of flow between the recent issues. 

Paul, I agree with your December placement of DD #140, but I wanted to point out the "2 days/coast" reference. Either DD meant "2 MONTHS", which seems unlikely or he made a 2nd (BTS) trip to the coast, which seems more likely. Maybe worth a footnote in the calendar to avoid confusion.

P.S. - Thanks for the T #233 conformation. 

- RLG

			*	*	*

Re: Question about DD #139 and DD @4
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 04, 2003 at 07:29:17:
In Reply to: Re: Question about DD #139 and DD @4 
posted by RLG on December 04, 2003 at 05:18:35:

> >> Glad I could help. I agree with your revisions. While this is fresh on our minds, I have one quick point for the future Calendar: the Early Years.

> >> Quick recap - DD goes to California BTS between DD #137 & #138 to rescue Karen Page. This is start of the crossover that ends in GR2 #20. In DD #139, DD (back in NYC) comments about his recent visit with Karen. OK, so far the plot threads, chrono, and calendar placement all mesh.

> >> However, in DD #140 (pg 7, panel 2), as DD arrives at Grand Central Station to confront the Beetle and the Gladiator, he states, "Back from the coast TWO days and I still haven't spent any time with Heather." Obviously, the "coast" reference is meant to add a sense of flow between the recent issues. 

> >> Paul, I agree with your December placement of DD #140, but I wanted to point out the "2 days/coast" reference. Either DD meant "2 MONTHS", which seems unlikely or he made a 2nd (BTS) trip to the coast, which seems more likely. Maybe worth a footnote in the calendar to avoid confusion.

Duly noted. Is there a reference in DD 141 to it being "two days" since DD@ 4? My notes include this reference, but I can't remember where I got that info, since I don't have the issues involved.


> >> P.S. - Thanks for the T #233 conformation. 

You're welcome.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Question about DD #139 and DD @4
Posted by RLG on December 04, 2003 at 17:06:16:
In Reply to: Re: Question about DD #139 and DD @4 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 04, 2003 at 07:29:17:

Thanks for giving me an excuse to re-read the only DD issue that has Bullseye knock our hero out with a flying paper airplane ONLY to have DD wake up tied to a 15 foot arrow aimed at the Jersey Palisades with Bullseye about to pull the trigger to the equally large crossbow (well worth the price of admission!) Bullseye, you've come a long way baby! 

I did not see any reference to DD #141 being "2 days" since DD@ #4. The begins at (or around) midnight and throughout the day. DD #142 continues during the same day. If you need a more detailed synopsis, let me know.

--RLG 

			*	*	*

Re: Question about DD #139 and DD @4
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 04, 2003 at 21:20:11:
In Reply to: Re: Question about DD #139 and DD @4 
posted by RLG on December 04, 2003 at 17:06:16:

I probably don't need anything detailed at this point, but would like to know if my notes on these issues of DD are okay:

DAREDEVIL ANNUAL #4
(one day?; shortly after GR2 20; must occur right after SVTU 5, in which Dr. Doom removes Sub-Mariner's new costume; must be December)
Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, Heather Glenn, Sub-Mariner, Black Panther, Mind-Master II, Willis, Boxer, Gil II, Junior, Freddie II, Jojo, Bernie V, Robert Mallory, Keith Mallory, Dr. Sullivan, Thomas

DAREDEVIL #139
(one day?; according to MCI 9B, this story occurs after DD @ 4, which is referred to as having occurred recently; must be December)
Daredevil, Dr. Barret, Archer Emmet, Joyce Hillary, Mike Slate, Big Max, Frank Hillary-BTS

DAREDEVIL #140
(one day and the next day; DDs reference to having been back from the coast two days must be a reference to a trip other than the one in GR2 20; according to MCI 9B, this story occurs between M/TU 51 and GR2 21; must be December)
Daredevil, Gladiator, Beetle

DAREDEVIL #141
(one night and the next day; rainy; probably December)
Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, Heather Glenn, Maxwell Glenn, Debbie Harris, Bullseye, Stone, Mort II

DAREDEVIL #142
(same night as DD 141 end, the next day, and the day after that; must occur after MCN 1; probably December)
Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, Heather Glenn, Bert Rose, Nova, Bill Rotsler, Sharman Divono, Bullseye, Mr. Hyde, Cobra

DAREDEVIL #143
(same night as DD 142 end and the next day; warm weather clothing must be topical; probably December)
Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, Heather Glenn, Maxwell Glenn, Bill Rotsler, Sharman Divono, Mr. Hyde, Cobra

DAREDEVIL #144
(one day; probably shortly after DD 143; probably December)
Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, Heather Glenn, Bert Rose, Professor Kerwin, Man-Bull, Owl, NYPD Commissioner-BTS

Thanks!

Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Question about DD #139 and DD @4
Posted by RLG on December 05, 2003 at 16:08:02:
In Reply to: Re: Question about DD #139 and DD @4 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 04, 2003 at 21:20:11:

Looks good to me Paul. I put my personal notes underneath yours where I had additions and/or differences:

> DAREDEVIL ANNUAL #4
> (one day?; shortly after GR2 20; must occur right after SVTU 5, in which Dr. Doom removes Sub-Mariner's new costume; must be December)
> Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, Heather Glenn, Sub-Mariner, Black Panther, Mind-Master II, Willis, Boxer, Gil II, Junior, Freddie II, Jojo, Bernie V, Robert Mallory, Keith Mallory, Dr. Sullivan, Thomas

> DAREDEVIL #139
> (one day?; according to MCI 9B, this story occurs after DD @ 4, which is referred to as having occurred recently; must be December)
> Daredevil, Dr. Barret, Archer Emmet, Joyce Hillary, Mike Slate, Big Max, Frank Hillary-BTS

*** DD #139
1 day, probably a weekday due to the stock market radio report on pg 3, pn 5

> DAREDEVIL #140
> (one day and the next day; DDs reference to having been back from the coast two days must be a reference to a trip other than the one in GR2 20; according to MCI 9B, this story occurs between M/TU 51 and GR2 21; must be December)
> Daredevil, Gladiator, Beetle

*** DD #140
1 afternoon beginning at 3pm EST.
-Due to length of Silver Comet train trip the villains take to NYC, story could be picked up the following day (or day after)as the train arrives
-Although never stated, the Beetle could have used his skills to increase the speed of the train, making the story take place during the same day

> DAREDEVIL #141
> (one night and the next day; rainy; probably December)
> Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, Heather Glenn, Maxwell Glenn, Debbie Harris, Bullseye, Stone, Mort II

*** DD #141
1 night beginning at 12 am, continued into the morning and ending that afternoon
- rainy weather
- pg 9 states "the following morning", but due to Matt wearing the same suit (plus tie) and the urgency of the visit to Max Glenn's office, most likely means "hours later", rather than a full day
- Matt and Foggy's office is shot up by Bullseye

> DAREDEVIL #142
> (same night as DD 141 end, the next day, and the day after that; must occur after MCN 1; probably December)
> Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, Heather Glenn, Bert Rose, Nova, Bill Rotsler, Sharman Divono, Bullseye, Mr. Hyde, Cobra

*** DD #142
same afternoon as last issue, into the night and the following evening
- pg 1 to pg 12, pn2 - same afternoon as last issue (see below)
- pg 12, pn3 - "the next night": Hyde tries out new formula
- pg 14, pn 1 - "an hour later": DD locates Hyde & Cobra atop Rostler's penthouse jungle garden 
- DD refers to "freezing November weather" 
- when Matt returns to the office on pg 11 , smoke and debris are still present
- pg 11, pn 2 - Foggy states in the past two weeks he's been shot at, attacked, almost blown out of his own office, and Debbie has been kidnapped

> DAREDEVIL #143
> (same night as DD 142 end and the next day; warm weather clothing must be topical; probably December)
> Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, Heather Glenn, Maxwell Glenn, Bill Rotsler, Sharman Divono, Mr. Hyde, Cobra

*** DD #143
same day as last issue and the next day
- the next day might be later since the office has been fully repaired

> DAREDEVIL #144
> (one day; probably shortly after DD 143; probably December)
> Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, Heather Glenn, Bert Rose, Professor Kerwin, Man-Bull, Owl, NYPD Commissioner-BTS

*** DD #144
1 day beginnning shortly before sunrise

			*	*	*

Re: Question about DD #139 and DD @4
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 05, 2003 at 21:46:34:
In Reply to: Re: Question about DD #139 and DD @4 
posted by RLG on December 05, 2003 at 16:08:02:

> *** DD #142
> same afternoon as last issue, into the night and the following evening
> - DD refers to "freezing November weather" 

November, eh? Okay, I think I can work with that without wreaking havoc on chronologies. Does that November reference occur on the first or second day of DD 142? I'm inclined to place this story at the very end of the month, with the string of issues from DD @4 to DD 141 occurring shortly before. We still can't get GR2 20 to occur a couple of days before DD 140, given Iron Man's and Subby's chronologies, but that different-trip-to-the-coast theory works for me.

(October)
IM 89
DD 138
GR2 20
(November)
DD@ 4
DD 139
DEF 40
M/TU 151
DD 140
DD 141
DD 142
DD 143
DD 144
(December)
MCSS 1
WBN 42 (I imagine a full moon is here, perhaps to coincide with that seen in DEF 50)
A 159 (Christmas Eve)
X 98 (Christmas Eve)

If this looks good, I'll tweak the Avengers Year-By-Year Calendar again.

--Paul 

			*	*	*

Re: Question about DD #139 and DD @4
Posted by RLG on December 05, 2003 at 22:21:46:
In Reply to: Re: Question about DD #139 and DD @4 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 05, 2003 at 21:46:34:

The "November" reference occurs on the first day in DD #142 (continued from DD #141) as DD unties himself from the large arrow and reaches the surface of the water. (Note for Nova fans - the Human Rocket makes a cameo as he introduces himself to DD and flys the soaking wet hero back to land)

Paul, I noticed in your DD #142 notes, "...must occur after MCN 1; probably December." What is MCN 1 ??

And yes, I like your new calendar, if for no other reason than it spaces these DD appearances out a little more evenly over the 3 months in question.

- RLG 

			*	*	*

Re: Question about DD #139 and DD @4
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 06, 2003 at 13:44:22:
In Reply to: Re: Question about DD #139 and DD @4 
posted by RLG on December 05, 2003 at 22:21:46:

> The "November" reference occurs on the first day in DD #142 (continued from DD #141) as DD unties himself from the large arrow and reaches the surface of the water. (Note for Nova fans - the Human Rocket makes a cameo as he introduces himself to DD and flys the soaking wet hero back to land)

> Paul, I noticed in your DD #142 notes, "...must occur after MCN 1; probably December." What is MCN 1 ??

That's "Man Called Nova," or Nova, vol. 1. Ten years ago, I started my calendar before I knew about the MCP abbreviations for titles, so MCN is a holdover from that time. When I prepare my notes for the "Marvel Calendar - The Early Years," I'll have to make the abbreviations consistent with the MCP.


> And yes, I like your new calendar, if for no other reason than it spaces these DD appearances out a little more evenly over the 3 months in question.

DD's November appearances are still confined to the last week or so of the month. I'm not particularly bothered by uneven spacing, which mirrors real life -- sometimes a lot of stuff happens in a short period; other times, long periods go by without significant event. (And of course, we're dealing only with published appearances; flashbacks and continuity implants make it clear that "quiet" periods may not necessarily have been quiet.)

In any case, I'll go ahead and adjust my master copy of the Avengers Year-By-Year Calendar to reflect these changes.

Thanks again for bringing up the topic.

--Paul

			*	*	*

UNION JACK III...UNUSCIONE...BEN URICH
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 03, 2003 at 16:54:58:

This one turned out a bit more convoluted than most. Hope its clear. :)


new entries marked **


UNION JACK III/JOEY CHAPMAN

CA 253
CA 254
**M/CP 42/3-FB (6p2) shows where the decision is being made for Joey Chapman to be the next Union Jack.
**M/CP 42/3
COC 1-BTS

Additionally:
FALSWORTH, KENNETH
**M/CP 42-FB
M/CP 89/3
And
SPITFIRE/LADY JACQUELINE FALSWORTH CRICHTON
M/CP 89/3-FB
CA 253 (not in MCP; was in an earlier post#120)
**M/CP 42-FB
M/SH3 4/4

And if gravesites count as BTS appearances, Union Jack I and Union Jack II have BTS appearances in M/CP 42


.. .. .. .. ..

(UNION JACK III cont'd)

N 12-FB
**N 11 Although Namor hallucinates the WW II Invaders, it is the current day Union jack, Spitfire and Namorita that are in the room.
N 12

Additionally: 
NAMORITA/NITA PRENTISS [ATLANTEAN]
N 12-FB
**N 11
N 12
(Spitfires appearance in N 11 was noted in a previous post..# 120)


UNUSCIONE 

UX 315
**X 42 (1p3 upper right)
X 43
Additionally:
CARGILL/JOANNA CARGILL (1p3 lower right)
X:PRIME
**X 42
X 43

JAVITZ (1p3 behind Colossus)
UX 315
**X 42
X 43

KLEINSTOCK, HARLAN (1p3 upper right)
**X 42
X 43

KLEINSTOCK, SVEN (1p3 upper right)
**X 42
X 43



URICH, BEN

DD 180
**DD 183 (12)
ASM@ 15

.. .. .. .. ..

ASM@ 18
ASM 262
**DD 221 (I cannot determine if this should be before or after PPTSS 104)
PPTSS 104
DD 227


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#138

			*	*	*

Spider-Man/Dr. Octopus: Negative Exposure
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 04, 2003 at 21:30:15:

Well, I have the first three issues of this limited series and am baffled. Is this a non-canon story, or are we supposed to fit this contemporary depiction of Doc Ock sometime back when Peter Parker was "not even out of college?" And the reference to Ock (contemporary look here too) fighting the National Guard during his attempt to steal plutonium from Indian Point the year before (see issue #3) -- is that supposed to have occurred in the mainstream MU? Can anyone shed light on this?

--Paul 

			*	*	*

Re: Spider-Man/Dr. Octopus: Negative Exposure
Posted by Andy Holcombe on December 08, 2003 at 06:58:46:
In Reply to: Spider-Man/Dr. Octopus: Negative Exposure 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 04, 2003 at 21:30:15:

Don't forget the reference to the blonde in issue #1 (I think), which to my mind is Gwen Stacy. 

			*	*	*

Re: Spider-Man/Dr. Octopus: Negative Exposure
Posted by Antonio Gavio on December 08, 2003 at 13:22:07:
In Reply to: Re: Spider-Man/Dr. Octopus: Negative Exposure 
posted by Andy Holcombe on December 08, 2003 at 06:58:46:

I assumed the blonde in issue #1 was a reference to Karyn but what really bugs me is the Quentin Beck as Mysterio appearance, when he is supposed to be dead. 

			*	*	*

Re: Spider-Man/Dr. Octopus: Negative Exposure
Posted by Antonio Gavio on December 08, 2003 at 22:29:20:
In Reply to: Re: Spider-Man/Dr. Octopus: Negative Exposure 
posted by Antonio Gavio on December 08, 2003 at 13:22:07:

Seeing Dr. Octopus with new duds in Spider-Man/Dr. Octopus: Negative Exposure had me reading it from the perspective of it being a contemporary story, hence my earlier comments. I re-read the three issues published so far and it seems they wanted it to be a story set in the past (still can't see the reasons). They probably wanted Doc to sport a contemporary look using Ramos' design (?). I just can see this kind of thing happening at Marvel more often in coming books, welcome to the future, guys.

			*	*	*

Re: Spider-Man/Dr. Octopus: Negative Exposure
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 09, 2003 at 07:26:29:
In Reply to: Re: Spider-Man/Dr. Octopus: Negative Exposure 
posted by Antonio Gavio on December 08, 2003 at 22:29:20:

Yes, there are a number of references that place this story in the past, but the contemporary depiction of Doc Ock throws everything off. Then there's that reference to the incident at Indian Point the year before this story, in which Ock ALSO has the contemporary look. What the heck are they DOING?

I'll reserve final judgment until the miniseries ends, but I find myself reluctant to even pick up the rest of the issues as I'm leaning toward a verdict of "non-canon."

--Paul 

			*	*	*

Re: Spider-Man/Dr. Octopus: Negative Exposure
Posted by ShadZ on December 10, 2003 at 17:39:21:
In Reply to: Re: Spider-Man/Dr. Octopus: Negative Exposure 
posted by Antonio Gavio on December 08, 2003 at 22:29:20:

> They probably wanted Doc to sport a contemporary look using Ramos' design (?). 

The new Doc Ock design is adapted from the upcoming Spider-Man II movie...

			*	*	*

Betty Brant Leeds
Posted by captamr on December 06, 2003 at 20:03:50:

She also appears in ASM 278:

LEEDS, BETTY BRANT

ASM 276
**ASM 278
ASM 280 

			*	*	*

UROC...USAGENT...VALKYRIE II
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 07, 2003 at 08:48:27:

new entries marked **


UROC

**T 409/2-FB
**T 408/2
**T 409/2
T 440
T 447


USAGENT/CAPTAIN JOHN WALKER/"JACK DANIELS"

CA 377/2
**CA 378/2
CA 380/2


VALKYRIE II/BRUNNHILDE/SISTER BARBARA DENTON NORRISS
DEF 152
**M/CP 37/3
**DRSTR2 80 (17p3-18p6) As Steven lies dying, Valkyrie appears to him to guide him on. This is not a figment of his feverish imaginationthe next time we see Val (ST2/5/2), she is wearing the same costume. Also in ST2/5/2, Steven speaks to Val about her previous attempt to take him into death (with editorial footnote of DRSTR2 80)
ST2 5/2


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#139

			*	*	*

1993 X-Books
Posted by David Hall on December 07, 2003 at 12:08:01:

Russ, I just wanted to ask if you had an eta for closing the 1993-94 gap, especially as far as the various X-books, as this info would be very helpful to me right now. I understand how busy everyone is at this time of year, and all that, but I'm just curious.
Thanks for having such a great site.

David 

			*	*	*

Re: 1993 X-Books
Posted by Administrator on December 07, 2003 at 19:24:27:
In Reply to: 1993 X-Books 
posted by David Hall on December 07, 2003 at 12:08:01:

Sorry, but the X-books will be among the *last* ones to be closed. I think next up is Daredevil and Namor.

			*	*	*

Re: 1993 X-Books
Posted by David Hall on December 10, 2003 at 12:27:06:
In Reply to: Re: 1993 X-Books 
posted by Administrator on December 07, 2003 at 19:24:27:

That's too bad, but thanks for the answer.

Dave

			*	*	*

Union Jack Mini-Series
Posted by Martin F on December 08, 2003 at 11:41:30:

I'm just wondering if the Union Jack mini-series featuring Union Jack III, Joey Chapman, and Baron Blood was considered cannon, and where it would fit into his current chronology. 

			*	*	*

Re: Union Jack Mini-Series
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on December 09, 2003 at 09:16:05:
In Reply to: Union Jack Mini-Series 
posted by Martin F on December 08, 2003 at 11:41:30:

I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be canon. Unless there are any pressing reasons why it can't have happened then, I'd go by cover date and place UNION JACK #1-3 immediately prior to THUNDERBOLTS #25 in the current listing.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch 

			*	*	*

Re: Union Jack Mini-Series
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 09, 2003 at 21:01:24:
In Reply to: Re: Union Jack Mini-Series 
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on December 09, 2003 at 09:16:05:

That would be true for the entire Union Jack mini-series EXCEPT the last page of issue #3, which occurs "eight months" after the rest of the story. As we see a Christmas party at the beginning of issue #3, we can presume that most of the mini-series occurs in December, with the end of issue #3 occurring the following August. My tentative placement of TB 25 is in the January between.

--Paul (reflecting some work on the calendar covering the couple of years before the current calendar)

			*	*	*

Gabe Jone continuity
Posted by kryanmarsh on December 09, 2003 at 01:45:11:

In Strange Tales 149, Gabe Jones refers to an earlier adventure in which he help foil a plot involving the Secret Empire. The notation says that this happened in Tales to Astonish 83 yet this issue does not appear in his continuity. Does anyone know which story he appeared in??? 

			*	*	*

Re: Gabe Jone continuity
Posted by Don Campbell on December 09, 2003 at 09:45:32:
In Reply to: Gabe Jone continuity 
posted by kryanmarsh on December 09, 2003 at 01:45:11:

That earlier adventure only appeared in a couple of panels of flashbacks in CAPTAIN AMERICA #175 (July, 1974). A footnote from editor Roy Thomas on page 5 reads as follows:

*At last, old-time true believers! An actual representation of "Gabe Jones' brilliant defeat of the Secret Empire," advertised but never shown in 1966.--Roy.

Apparently, Jones had infiltrated the Secret Empire's Inner Council as "Number Six" so if a character named Number Six appears in TALES TO ASTONISH #83, that's Jones in disguise and TTA 83 should be added to his entry.

I've just checked out the MCP's entry for Gabe Jones and found that CA 175-FB is listed but it has been placed between ST 149 and ST 151. From what you've said, CA 175-FB should be listed sometime BEFORE ST 149. If ST 149 is a single-issue story, then CA 175-FB could occur right before it but if ST 149 is part of a multi-issue storyline, then CA 175-FB would have to be placed before that storyline began. I can't help you with that.

Don Campbell 

			*	*	*

Re: Gabe Jone continuity
Posted by Russ Chappell on December 09, 2003 at 18:11:02:
In Reply to: Re: Gabe Jone continuity 
posted by Don Campbell on December 09, 2003 at 09:45:32:

> Apparently, Jones had infiltrated the Secret Empire's Inner Council as "Number Six" so if a character named Number Six appears in TALES TO ASTONISH #83, that's Jones in disguise and TTA 83 should be added to his entry.

Not as such. We do see a meeting of the "inner council," attended by seven robed figures. "One" is absent, "Five" is dead, so can we assume that "Six" is one of the robed figures?

			*	*	*
Re: Gabe Jone continuity
Posted by Don Campbell on December 11, 2003 at 17:38:06:
In Reply to: Re: Gabe Jone continuity 
posted by Russ Chappell on December 09, 2003 at 18:11:02:

According to the flashback in CA 178, Number One accidentally killed himself with a bomb meant for the Hulk. While that was happening, Number Nine, who was secretly wearing protective armour under his robe, tried to kill all the other surviving members of the Secret Empire's inner council by setting off his own bomb. His plan succeeded and all the other council members in attendance were killed...except for Number Six (Gabe Jones) who was also wearing protective armour under his robe and who then fought and defeated Number Nine.

Since Jones needed the armour to survive Number Nine's attack on the inner council, that means that he must have been present during the attack. If Tales to Astonish #83 SHOWS Number Nine's attack, then Jones (as Number Six) must be one of the robed figures present. Also, if there were only nine members of the inner council and two of them were absent/dead, then the seven robed figures depicted must have been all the surviving members, which must have included "Six."

Don Campbell 

			*	*	*

Re: Gabe Jone continuity
Posted by Administrator on December 11, 2003 at 17:56:46:
In Reply to: Re: Gabe Jone continuity 
posted by Don Campbell on December 11, 2003 at 17:38:06:

> According to the flashback in CA 178, Number One accidentally killed himself with a bomb meant for the Hulk. 

It was Number Five who was dead. Number One was alive and well in the Sub-Mariner story in TTA 84, which takes place at the same time as the Hulk story in TTA 84, so he was alive at the time of TTA 83/2.

> While that was happening, Number Nine, who was secretly wearing protective armour under his robe, tried to kill all the other surviving members of the Secret Empire's inner council by setting off his own bomb. His plan succeeded and all the other council members in attendance were killed...except for Number Six (Gabe Jones) who was also wearing protective armour under his robe and who then fought and defeated Number Nine.

> Since Jones needed the armour to survive Number Nine's attack on the inner council, that means that he must have been present during the attack. If Tales to Astonish #83 SHOWS Number Nine's attack, then Jones (as Number Six) must be one of the robed figures present. 

Yes, the inner council's appearance in TTA 83/2 ends with the dastardly attack.

			*	*	*

Re: Gabe Jone continuity
Posted by Don Campbell on December 12, 2003 at 13:00:17:
In Reply to: Re: Gabe Jone continuity 
posted by Administrator on December 11, 2003 at 17:56:46:

> > > Not as such. We do see a meeting of the "inner council," attended by seven robed figures. "One" is absent, "Five" is dead, so can we assume that "Six" is one of the robed figures?

> > According to the flashback in CA 175, Number One accidentally killed himself with a bomb meant for the Hulk. 

> It was Number Five who was dead. Number One was alive and well in the Sub-Mariner story in TTA 84, which takes place at the same time as the Hulk story in TTA 84, so he was alive at the time of TTA 83/2.

Here are quotes from Gabe Jones' dialogue during the flashback in CA 175:

(page 4, panel 3) "Number One took control of the Sub-Mariner's mind to have him whomp the Hulk. Well, naturally, Namor and the jolly green giant never set eyes on each other--*" and the footnote reads *TTA #83-84.

(page 4, panel 4) "--but Number One was so afraid the Hulk would want revenge on him, he set a bomb for the monster and blew himself up by mistake."

(page 4, panel 5) "And while all that was going on, the other members of the Empire were getting by with one of their own, a power-hungry type named Number Nine.*" and the footnote reads *Tales to Astonish #83.


> > Since Jones needed the armour to survive Number Nine's attack on the inner council, that means that he must have been present during the attack. If Tales to Astonish #83 SHOWS Number Nine's attack, then Jones (as Number Six) must be one of the robed figures present. 

> Yes, the inner council's appearance in TTA 83/2 ends with the dastardly attack.


Okay, Number One was absent from the inner council meeting that was attacked (in TTA #83/2) because he was off dealing with Namor and the Hulk in TTA #83-84. Basically, the flashback recaps events from TTA #83-84 and adds the following new information: one panel that shows Number One accidentally killing himself with a bomb meant for the Hulk, one panel that shows that Number Six also survived Number Nine's attack and one panel that shows that Number Six was really Gabe Jones.

To summarize, Number Five died first, then Number Nine killed five of his remaining fellow council members but was defeated by Number Six (Jones), and then Number One accidentally blew himself up (presumably before learning of the fate of the rest of the inner council).

Don Campbell 

			*	*	*

Re: Gabe Jone continuity
Posted by Administrator on December 12, 2003 at 17:32:29:
In Reply to: Re: Gabe Jone continuity 
posted by Don Campbell on December 12, 2003 at 13:00:17:

> According to the flashback in CA 175, Number One accidentally killed himself with a bomb meant for the Hulk. 

> Here are quotes from Gabe Jones' dialogue during the flashback in CA 175:

> (page 4, panel 3) "Number One took control of the Sub-Mariner's mind to have him whomp the Hulk. Well, naturally, Namor and the jolly green giant never set eyes on each other--*" and the footnote reads *TTA #83-84.

> (page 4, panel 4) "--but Number One was so afraid the Hulk would want revenge on him, he set a bomb for the monster and blew himself up by mistake."

> (page 4, panel 5) "And while all that was going on, the other members of the Empire were getting by with one of their own, a power-hungry type named Number Nine.*" and the footnote reads *Tales to Astonish #83.

I would take exception with the the phrase "while all that was going on," implying that the events shown in page 4 panel 5, took place at the same time as page 4 panels 3-4, when they actually took place afterwards (see below).

> 
> > > Since Jones needed the armour to survive Number Nine's attack on the inner council, that means that he must have been present during the attack. If Tales to Astonish #83 SHOWS Number Nine's attack, then Jones (as Number Six) must be one of the robed figures present. 

> > Yes, the inner council's appearance in TTA 83/2 ends with the dastardly attack.

> 
> Okay, Number One was absent from the inner council meeting that was attacked (in TTA #83/2) because he was off dealing with Namor and the Hulk in TTA #83-84. Basically, the flashback recaps events from TTA #83-84 and adds the following new information: one panel that shows Number One accidentally killing himself with a bomb meant for the Hulk, 

Afraid not. This panel is retelling events from the Sub-Mariner story in TTA 85.

> one panel that shows that Number Six also survived Number Nine's attack and one panel that shows that Number Six was really Gabe Jones.

> To summarize, Number Five died first, then Number Nine killed five of his remaining fellow council members but was defeated by Number Six (Jones), and then Number One accidentally blew himself up (presumably before learning of the fate of the rest of the inner council).

Agreed.

			*	*	*

Re: Gabe Jone continuity
Posted by kryanmarsh on December 12, 2003 at 23:31:20:
In Reply to: Re: Gabe Jone continuity 
posted by Don Campbell on December 09, 2003 at 09:45:32:

> If ST 149 is a single-issue story, then CA 175-FB could occur right before it but if ST 149 is part of a multi-issue storyline, then CA 175-FB would have to be placed before that storyline began. I can't help you with that.

Gabe Jones is still in his Secret Empire robe, so the entry should be right before ST149

			*	*	*

Wendigo III
Posted by jim on December 09, 2003 at 21:36:40:

Wendigo III did not appear in 

S-M 8
S-M 9
S-M 10
S-M 11

it was Wendigo IV-real name unrevealed

			*	*	*

Re: Wendigo III
Posted by Administrator on December 09, 2003 at 23:23:23:
In Reply to: Wendigo III 
posted by jim on December 09, 2003 at 21:36:40:

If his real name is unrevealed, how do you know which Wendigo it was?

			*	*	*

Official Handbook Entry reveals them as different Wendigos 
Posted by John McDonagh on December 10, 2003 at 18:03:32:
In Reply to: Re: Wendigo III 
posted by Administrator on December 09, 2003 at 23:23:23:


The Official Hanbook (Master Edition) Wendigo entry reveals that the Wendigo from Hulk#272 and the one from the McFarlane Spider-Man issues are different entities. 

			*	*	*

Re: Official Handbook Entry reveals them as different Wendigos 
Posted by jim on December 10, 2003 at 22:51:40:
In Reply to: Official Handbook Entry reveals them as different Wendigos 
posted by John McDonagh on December 10, 2003 at 18:03:32:

True,i should have added that to my post as confirmation,the question i have though is 

important question concerning Wendigo/Yeti

can anyone tell me if they give any reference at all in a panel in any of theses issues-northstar(#1 & 3)/x-force (#11-13/22-23)-as a flashback photo or text to Yeti from Weapon PRIME being the Wendigo(Francois Lartigue) who 1st appeared in Incredible Hulk(v.2)#272?

i have seen on a few sites that this is the case but i would like to have some sort of proof,if any writers or artists read this post,please confirm for me if this is true or not.

Also did the same Wendigo fight Werewolf in Marvel Comics Presents #113? please confirm as well

Thankyou
Jim

			*	*	*

Re: Official Handbook Entry reveals them as different Wendigos 
Posted by Jeph! on December 10, 2003 at 23:40:14:
In Reply to: Re: Official Handbook Entry reveals them as different Wendigos 
posted by jim on December 10, 2003 at 22:51:40:

> can anyone tell me if they give any reference at all in a panel in any of theses issues-northstar(#1 & 3)/x-force (#11-13/22-23)-as a flashback photo or text to Yeti from Weapon PRIME being the Wendigo(Francois Lartigue) who 1st appeared in Incredible Hulk(v.2)#272?

No, as far as I know they don't. In X-Force #12, Yeti was originally introduced as "Wendigo" -- in all appearances after that, though, his name was given as "Yeti".

It seems clear that the original intent was for the character to BE the (or, a) Wendigo, but the idea was nixed by editorial -- necessitating a name change. If that's the case, then I think we can safely conclude that Yeti is currently NOT meant to be the same as any of the previous Wendigos.

Hope that helped...

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Official Handbook Entry reveals them as different Wendigos 
Posted by jim on December 10, 2003 at 23:51:09:
In Reply to: Re: Official Handbook Entry reveals them as different Wendigos 
posted by Jeph! on December 10, 2003 at 23:40:14:

THks Jeph,ya it's given me a little more insight,it's just i have come across a number of sites stating that they are the same,including here,i just wish someone from marvel could confirm it for me :)
thks again

			*	*	*

Re: Official Handbook Entry reveals them as different Wendigos 
Posted by Jeph! on December 11, 2003 at 00:18:49:
In Reply to: Re: Official Handbook Entry reveals them as different Wendigos 
posted by jim on December 10, 2003 at 23:51:09:

Okay, I finished my research, and the Northstar issues make it fairly clear that Yeti IS NOT a Wendigo: he can speak. Wendigos cannot.

That said, you're right -- the MCP *does* list Yeti as Wendigo III, for whatever reason. Odd.

Russ, if you're reading this, Yeti and Wendigo III should be listed as SEPARATE entities. Yeti's listing begins with X-Force #11, his first appearance.

I have no idea if this Yeti is the same creature as the Yeti from John Byrne's "Marvel: the Lost generation" and "X-Men: the Hidden Years" series, but I would assume that it isn't. That one should be bumped up to Yeti II.

(And, Jim, presumably the Wendigo in MCP #113 would have been the "current" one, which at that time was Lartigue.)

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Yetis
Posted by Don Campbell on December 11, 2003 at 11:04:13:
In Reply to: Re: Official Handbook Entry reveals them as different Wendigos 
posted by Jeph! on December 11, 2003 at 00:18:49:

Just wanted to point out that the Yeti from those two series by John Byrne FIRST appeared in FANTASTIC FOUR #99. Although not named in that issue, he was the "talking Abominable Snowman" encountered by Johnny Storm. Since he appeared first (both in chronological and publication order), he should remain "Yeti" and the Weapon Prime Yeti from X-Force should be the one bumped up to "Yeti II."

Don Campbell 

			*	*	*

Re: Yetis
Posted by jim on December 12, 2003 at 18:07:40:
In Reply to: Yetis 
posted by Don Campbell on December 11, 2003 at 11:04:13:

Thks for taking the time to help out guys :)
Ya Jeph,i have index files i create and since i was stumped by this situation with Wendigo/Yeti,i wanted to post them to show the Administrator the corrections.And Don you are right Yeti I is from FF/M:TLG/X:THY
and the Weapon PRIME Yeti is Yeti II

			*	*	*

Re: Yetis
Posted by jim on December 12, 2003 at 18:13:19:
In Reply to: Re: Yetis 
posted by jim on December 12, 2003 at 18:07:40:

sory guys.another correction,there was another Yeti,a villain of Black Panther who 1st appeared in BLACK PANTHER(v.1)#5,making him Yeti II and Weapon PRIME Yeti III

			*	*	*

Re: Official Handbook Entry reveals them as different Wendigos 
Posted by Ethain on December 12, 2003 at 02:58:07:
In Reply to: Re: Official Handbook Entry reveals them as different Wendigos 
posted by Jeph! on December 11, 2003 at 00:18:49:

> Okay, I finished my research, and the Northstar issues make it fairly clear that Yeti IS NOT a Wendigo: he can speak. Wendigos cannot.

Er... The last Wendigo I remember is the one in Wolverine 171-172, and he spoke. Too much, in fact. Was it an special case?

			*	*	*

Re: Official Handbook Entry reveals them as different Wendigos 
Posted by Jeph! on December 12, 2003 at 12:20:08:
In Reply to: Re: Official Handbook Entry reveals them as different Wendigos 
posted by Ethain on December 12, 2003 at 02:58:07:

> > Okay, I finished my research, and the Northstar issues make it fairly clear that Yeti IS NOT a Wendigo: he can speak. Wendigos cannot.

Well, I exaggerate. Wendigos CAN speak -- but the only thing they've ever been known to say is "WENN-DII-GOOOO!"

> Er... The last Wendigo I remember is the one in Wolverine 171-172, and he spoke. Too much, in fact. Was it an special case?

Yes -- that was Mauvais, right? He didn't become the Wendigo by the traditional means of practicing cannibalism inside Canada's borders -- he killed the current Wendigo and ate its heart. (Yes, that does sound like cannibalism, but remember, that was Mauvais' power -- to absorb his foes' abilities by eating their body parts.)

When he became the Wendigo, he also kept several of his facial features -- notably his enlarged right eye -- so it comes as no surprise to me that he could still speak, as well. He didn't befall the Wendigo's CURSE -- he merely absorbed the Wendigo's POWER.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Wendigo III
Posted by jim on December 09, 2003 at 21:40:54:

sorry Wendigo IV that i posted earlier should be Wendigo V

			*	*	*

Smoothing out THE END, in relation to the X-Books
Posted by Jeph! on December 10, 2003 at 00:24:22:

I just got my copy of the "Marvel: the End" TPB, and I thought I'd share my thoughts on placing the thing chronologically.

(First off, a quick rant  is anyone else getting annoyed at Marvel's TPB naming policy? The indicia and spine claim that this book is called "Thanos vol. 3: Marvel Universe  the End", despite a complete lack of the words "Thanos" or "Universe" anywhere on the front cover. Ditto the other TPB that I bought this week  it's "Wolverine Legends vol. 5" on the spine, "Wolverine Legends vol. 5: Snikt!" in the indicia, and "Marvel Legends  Wolverine: Snikt!" on the cover. Can we have some consistency, please?)

Anyway, looking at issue #1 of END and the X-Men shown, I see we're already running into some chronology problems. This has been discussed before, but I've got some new ideas on how to place things

First off, Angel Salvadore is present, which places this after X #120, when she arrives at the school. Prof. X is also present, and he was away from the school when Angel arrived  he was possessed by Cassandra Nova and wreaking havoc on the Shi'Ar from #117-125. His return in #125 was a large fight, and by the time it was over  at the end of X #126  Prof. X was back in his own body, and his spine was healed. He could walk.

Except, here, he's in his wheelchair.

Now, the ORDER miniseries showed us a similar set of circumstances  a Prof. X that SHOULD have been healed, but wasn't  and so we posited a period of time between X #126 and #127 where Prof. X re-learns to walk, and re-strengthens his leg muscles, but remains seated for large periods of time. Presumably, then, the END series also takes place in that gap. (And, by the way, it occurs AFTER the Order series wraps, because the Defenders are back to normal.)

However, turning to Archangel, we see that his skin is PINK, not blue. Archangel's skin turned back to pink in UX #412  and we saw him with blue skin in X #131.

Ugh. So, does this series occur between X #126-127, where Prof. X is rehabbing but Archangel has blue skin, or after X #131, when Archangel's skin has turned pink again, but Prof. X can walk? One of these factors  Archangel's skin or Prof. X's seating  must unfortunately be discounted.

By the way, Prof. X is on an extended business trip abroad during X #128-133  and in the END, he's there at the mansion even before the trouble starts. So if Archangel's skin color is believed, then not only does this series occur after X #131, but it also occurs after X #133.

(There's another option  could this series take place in the FUTURE? As in, after the events of X #146-150, after Prof. X is crippled again? Unfortunately, the Uncanny team is still in the unforms they had from UX #394-414 -- and UX #431 features a cameo by Xorn, placing that issue  and all UX issues before it  before Xorn's revelation as Magneto in X #146. So, no, based on uniforms alone, this series can't occur after X #146-150.)

Perhaps looking at the other X-books will shed some light on matters

In terms of UX  as stated above, the team is still in their Casey black uniforms, so this is before UX #415. Here, however, we run into another dilemma. If Archangel's skin color is to be believed, it is after the story arc stretching from UX #410-413. However, in the same arc Archangel suffered a broken arm and leg, and wore casts all through #414  and here, he's not wearing casts. So, if his skin color and health are to be believed, then this series occurs after #414  and therefore between UX #414 and 415.

However, in #414, Northstar joined the Xavier staff  and in #413 Husk did as well. Neither is present in this assemblage, though, and Prof. X specifically requested that "all X-Men" be called in. However, Xorn isn't present either  perhaps Northstar, Husk and Xorn all just had to use the bathroom in that particular panel?

Or, perhaps Archangel's skin color is the factor we'll have to discount after all  and this scene then occurs BEFORE he broke his limbs, and before Northstar and Husk join. If so, then, given Stacy X's presence, it could be anytime after UX #399.

So  either Archangel's skin color is wrong, and it occurs between UX #399-409  or Northstar and Husk are just out of the room, and it occurs between UX #414-415. Once again, Archangel's skin color is one of the options to be discounted.

Now, onto X-Treme X-Men

Well, this has been discussed before. It appears that Rogue and Gambit are actively displaying their powers, and Storm is walking. This places the series before XX #10, the start of a nine-issue arc where Rogue and Gambit lose their powers and Storm is crippled. The presence of Red Lotus indicates that the series occurs after XX #9  so we have a fairly easy placement of between XX #9-10.

However  the END series also stars Thor, in his Lord-of-Asgard mode. Now, Thor, in his PRE-Lord-of-Asgard mode, shows up in the background of one panel in XX #11  meaning that the XX #10-18 arc should take place BEFORE Thor becomes Lord of Asgard  and therefore, before the END.

So can we place Rogue, Gambit and Storm's appearances here after XX #18? Well, Gambit's power loss isn't confirmed until XX #19  so he could have a little power left, if we place this series between XX #18-19. Rogue COULD just be jumping off the balcony, as Paul suggested  although, she REALLY looks like she's hovering. If she's jumping, that's one of the oddest midair poses I've ever seen. And Storm? Well, if we place this series between XX #18-19, which would work for Gambit  there's really no way that Storm could be standing up. In XXX #1, which occurs after XX #19, her rehab was just beginning, and her legs wouldn't support her weight.

Can we place this later on, after XXX #1 and after Storm has regained the ability to walk (which she next demonstrates in X #132)? Yes  but Gambit and Rogue don't have their powers then  so we're going back around in a circle. Really, the best place for the X-Treme team is between XX #9-10  but there's that pesky pre-Lord Thor cameo in XX #11

Or is there? Look at the way Thor pops up in XX #11  he's hidden almost entirely behind a word balloon, and what's visible of him is badly miscolored (blue arms?). And, in every subsequent Avengers cameo in that arc, in XX #13 and #18  Thor isn't there. It almost looks like his presence in that single panel is an art mistake  a mistake that the editors tried to cover up. More than anything, it reminds me of the end of ORDER #5, where Quasar  who wasn't supposed to be there, since he was pretty much exiled from Earth at the end of MAXSEC #3  was covered up by Captain America's word balloon, and didn't appear at all in ORDER #6.

Could that be what this was? A concerted effort on the part of the editorial staff to say that Thor WASN'T actually in XX #11 after all? That his presence was a hastily-covered art mistake? If so, then perhaps we CAN push XX #10-18 forward  into the time when Thor is Lord of Asgard  and we CAN place the END series between XX #9-10 after all.

And that, in turn, gives us some ideas on where to place it in X and UX chronology, as well. In XX #19, the Beast informs Storm and the X-Treme team that Prof. X can walk again  Bishop's reply is "yes, we saw it on TV". This indicates that XX #19 occurs before X #132, where Storm and a walking Xavier meet face-to-face in Genosha. (And remember, Prof. X is away from the mansion entirely during X #128-133. So if XX #19  and therefore #10-18  and therefore the END series  occurs before X #132, then since Prof. X is at home in the END, it must also occur before X #128.)

Also, in XXX #1 (which, again, occurs after XX #19) reporters arrive at X-Corp Paris during a time when Prof. X is there  and unless he made another trip there, the only time that matches up to is during X #128-130.

So we have two clues that XX #10-18 occur before X #128  and therefore the END series does too. Meaning, that out of our two options for New X-Men above  between X #126-127, or after X #133  only one is now feasible: between X #126-127.

That means Archangel's skin color is the discounted factor  which means that in UX terms, the END occurs sometime between UX #399-409. Jean and Archangel's dialogue in #407 ("Sorry I couldn't get to this sooner" "Jean? Everything okay there [at the mansion]?" "Not exactly"), along with the books' publication order, seems to indicate that X #126 was fairly recent  and in #409, Wolvie remarks that Prof. X is "walkin' again". If he means actually walking, as opposed to merely ABLE to walk, that places it close to X #127  and since UX #408-409 are an arc, a safe place to put the END is between UX #407-408.

So, how do we discount Archangel's skin color? Simple  he forgot to turn off his image inducer. Heh. ;-)

So, that's it for the X-Men  END #1-6 occurs between X #126-127, between UX #407-408, and between XX #9-10, while removing Thor's appearance from XX #11 and bumping XX #10-18 up a bit on the relative timeline. Yes, it's fairly close to what we had before, Paul  but I wanted to confirm it for myself, and do the logic out step-by-step, so that we could smooth out the XX portion of things.


Also, a few notes: BobMM noted back in post #5162 that in terms of the Thunderbolts, this series occurs after T-Bolts #68, as Moonstone has her new black costume, and before T-Bolts #74, as Atlas is still combined with Dallas Riordan. He stated that it probably occurred between or during T-Bolts #69-70. I just wanted to mention this again, since Paul never replied to it before  and at last count, he had placed the series after T-Bolts #75.

Also  in END #5, one of the heroes attacking Thanos is  Spider-Girl? What? Is that really supposed to be May Parker from the MC2 alternate future, or is it  as I suspect  an art mistake for Mattie Franklin, Spider-WOMAN?

Another hero present is Longshot  and since he appears here with normal-length hair, it's likely that this occurs after his bedraggled-looking escape from a lengthy stay in Mojo's dungeons (where he's been ever since prior to UX #392) in Exiles #19.

And in END #4, as Thanos explains how many heroes have come back from the dead to "balance out the growing darkness", a picture of Colossus is shown alongside other resurrected heroes like Drax, the Punisher, and Hellcat. When did Colossus ever die and come back to life? I don't remember that at all.


Finally, it should be noted that the majority of this series is a flashback  the "main" story is Thanos telling the tale of the universe's destruction  and we see that he told this tale to Adam Warlock, in END #6, p.11, between panels 1-2. So things, especially Thanos' chronology, should basically go:

END #1-FB
END #2-FB
END #3-FB
END #4-FB
END #5-FB
END #6-FB
END #1
END #2
END #3
END #4
END #5
END #6

But since the present-day bits of END #1-5 occur in a void, everyone else's chronology would just look like this:

END #1-FB
END #2-FB
END #3-FB
END #4-FB
END #5-FB
END #6-FB
END #6

However, there's a LOT of time-travel involved  and more than a few timeline divergences and reboots. I'll be posting a detailed list of the chronologies of Akhenaten and Dr. Doom, the two who do the most complicated time-travelling, as soon as I can.

Anyone else have any comments on this series?

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Dr. Doom and Akhenaten's chronologies
Posted by Jeph! on December 10, 2003 at 01:54:38:
In Reply to: Smoothing out THE END, in relation to the X-Books 
posted by Jeph! on December 10, 2003 at 00:24:22:

Dr. Doom's chronology:

END #1  FB (main body of issue)  Dr. Doom monitors Akhenaten, looking for weaknesses.

END #2  FB (main body of issue)  Doom learns of Akhenaten's origins.

END #3  FB (pp.8-10)  Doom travels back to 1334 BC.

END #3  FB (p.11, p.12 panel 1) ~ END #4  FB (p.11, p.12 panel 1)  Doom makes an attempt on past-Akhenaten's life

END #3  FB (p.12 panel 2)  an attempt thwarted by present-day Akhenaten.

END #2  FB (p.3 panel 1)  Dr. Doom is imprisoned with other time travellers.

END #4  FB (p.12 panel 2, p.17)  Thanos' time-travel erases the events of the last two FBs, giving Doom a second chance to destroy Akhenaten  and this time, he succeeds.

END #5  FB (p.8)  Doctor Doom is among those called by Thor and the Living Tribunal to battle a godlike Thanos, but he does not appear in the battle scenes.


Akhenaten's chronology:


END #1  FB (p.3)  1351-1334 BC. General scenes of Akhenaten's reign.

END #2  FB (p.14 panels 1-3)  Akhenaten makes Aten the new god of Egypt.

END #1  FB (p.4 panels 1-2)  Akhenaten walks outside one night in 1334 BC.

END #3  FB (p.11) ~ END #4  FB (p.11)  before Akhenaten notices the approaching spaceship behind him, Doom takes aim.

END #1  FB (p.4 panel 3)  Akhenaten gazes up at the stars, and one star begins to grow larger than the rest

END #2  FB (p.14 panel 4)  Akhenaten stares, fascinated, as the star approaches.

END #1  FB (p.4 panel 5) ~ END #3  FB (p.12 panel 3) ~ END #4  FB (p.17 panel 1)  a spaceship locks a tractor beam on Akhenaten.

END #1  FB (p.4 panels 6-7)  Akhenaten is drawn into the ship

END #2  FB (p.15 panels 7-8)  shielding his eyes from the light, Akhenaten is brought aboard the spaceship.

END #1  FB-BTS (p.4 panels 8-10) ~ END #3  FB-BTS (p.12 panels 4-6)  the spaceship, with Akhenaten inside, jumps to lightspeed.

END #2  FB (pp.16-19)  Akhenaten is given the power of the Heart of the Universe. It takes him "nearly two thousand years" and then "another century" before he masters the power, which brings us up to just before 766 AD.

END #1  FB (main body of issue)  Now in the present day, Akhenaten returns to Earth. He summons all world leaders, including Doom, and declars himself ruler of Earth. Doom deposits a flying camera inside his palace. Akhenaten then begins to prepare for "the merciless crushing of  resistance".

END #3  FB (p.12, panels 2 and 7)  present-day Akhenaten travels into the past to capture Doom, who is making an attempt on past-Akhenaten's life. Present-day Akhenaten has already captured Doom by the start of END #2  FB (p.3), so this sequence must take place before that. Likely it occurs after Akhenaten returns to Earth (END #1 p.20), and after he decides to begin crushing resistance (END #1 p.26-27)  but at that point, Doom was spying on him. So Akhenaten's trip into the past should occur at a time when Doom's camera is investigating the rest of the palace, rather than following Akhenaten himself  and that's what's occuring at the start of END #2.

END #2  FB (main body of issue)  Akhenaten, back in the present-day, destroys most of the gods.

END #3  FB (pp.4-5)  Akhenaten destroys all weapons on earth, and creates an Imperial Police Force.

END #4  FB (pp.12-16)  Thanos travels into the past and plucks Akhenaten out of END #3 p.12 panel 2  erasing all of Akhenaten's chronology after that point.

END #4  FB (p.17 panels 5-6)  Doom, given a second chance by Thanos, destroys the Celestial Order spaceship  erasing all of Akhenaten's chronology after the tractor beam locks onto him in END #1 (p.4 panel 5) ~ END #3 (p.12 panel 3) ~ END #4 (p.17 panel 1). Present-day Akhenaten becomes a butterfly in Thanos' hands and ascends to the afterlife.

[It's then worth noting that Thanos' next move, in END #4  FB (p.18), is to destroy the Celestial Order spacecraft 2000 years before Akhenaten's birth  which in turn erases all of Akhenaten's chronology after END #1 (p.4 panels 1-2), since he's no longer going to be either abducted or targeted by Doom. However, as Don Campbell has argued, Akhenaten's full chronology should still be displayed on the MCP, because since Thanos' temporal machinations altered the MAIN timeline, rather than creating new timelines, the events still happened to Akhenaten  even though they were made to un-happen.]


So, Akhenaten's simplified chronology looks like this:

END #1  FB (p.3)
END #2  FB (p.14 panels 1-3)
END #1  FB (p.4 panels 1-2)
END #3  FB (p.11) ~ END #4  FB (p.11)
END #1  FB (p.4 panel 3)
END #2  FB (p.14 panel 4)
END #1  FB (p.4 panel 5) ~ END #3  FB (p.12 panel 3) ~ END #4  FB (p.17 panel 1)
END #1  FB (p.4 panels 6-7)
END #2  FB (p.15 panels 7-8)
END #1  FB-BTS (p.4 panels 8-10) ~ END #3  FB-BTS (p.12 panels 4-6)
END #2  FB (pp.16-19)
END #1  FB (main body of issue)
END #3  FB (p.12, panels 2 and 7)
END #2  FB (main body of issue)
END #3  FB (pp.4-5)
END #4  FB (pp.12-17)


Or like this, to put it into proper MCP format:

END 1FB
END 2FB
END 1FB
END 3FB ~ END 4FB
END 1FB
END 2FB
END 1FB ~ END 3FB ~ END 4FB
END 1FB
END 2FB
END 1FB-BTS ~ END 3FB-BTS
END 2FB
END 1FB
END 3FB
END 2FB
END 3FB
END 4FB


And Doom's looks like this:

END #1  FB (main body of issue)
END #2  FB (main body of issue)
END #3  FB (pp.8-10)
END #3  FB (p.11, p.12 panel 1) ~ END #4  FB (p.11, p.12 panel 1)
END #3  FB (p.12 panel 2)
END #2  FB (p.3 panel 1)
END #4  FB (p.12 panel 2, p.17)
END #5  FB (p.8)


Or, in MCP format, this:

END 1FB
END 2FB
END 3FB
END 3FB ~ END 4FB
END 3FB
END 2FB
END 4FB
END 5FB


Ta-daa!

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Dr. Doom and Akhenaten's chronologies
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on December 10, 2003 at 11:02:04:
In Reply to: Dr. Doom and Akhenaten's chronologies 
posted by Jeph! on December 10, 2003 at 01:54:38:

> END #2  FB (p.14 panels 1-3)  Akhenaten makes Aten the new god of Egypt.

I haven't read THE END, but is there any relation to the INCREDIBLE HULK issues which guest-starred Apocalypse? They featured "historical" scenes with Akhenaten and Aten (alias Apocalypse, I think) as well.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch 

			*	*	*

Re: Dr. Doom and Akhenaten's chronologies
Posted by Jeph! on December 10, 2003 at 13:30:42:
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Doom and Akhenaten's chronologies 
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on December 10, 2003 at 11:02:04:

> > END #2  FB (p.14 panels 1-3)  Akhenaten makes Aten the new god of Egypt.

> I haven't read THE END, but is there any relation to the INCREDIBLE HULK issues which guest-starred Apocalypse? They featured "historical" scenes with Akhenaten and Aten (alias Apocalypse, I think) as well.

The only relation would be that both comics made use of the historical figure. THE END just mentioned that Akhenaten decided to make Aten the new god of Egypt -- no "Aten" character was shown. So it's perfectly possible to integrate the two stories...

I used to own those issues (H2 #456-457), but not anymore. Can someone else post a quick rundown of the Ancient Egypt sequences?

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Dr. Doom and Akhenaten's chronologies
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on December 12, 2003 at 11:36:40:
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Doom and Akhenaten's chronologies 
posted by Jeph! on December 10, 2003 at 13:30:42:

> I used to own those issues (H2 #456-457), but not anymore. Can someone else post a quick rundown of the Ancient Egypt sequences?

Cut & pasted from the Apocalypse additions/ corrections I posted several months ago:

"The first historical scene in H2 457 involves the ruler Akhenaten visiting Apocalypse (calling himself "Aten" at the time) in his temple. According to historians Akhenaten ruled about 3,500 years ago, which would place the scene at around 1500 BC."

Seems like Aten, in the Marvel Universe, was indeed Apocalypse.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch 

			*	*	*

Re: Dr. Doom and Akhenaten's chronologies
Posted by Jeph! on December 12, 2003 at 12:42:12:
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Doom and Akhenaten's chronologies 
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on December 12, 2003 at 11:36:40:

> "The first historical scene in H2 457 involves the ruler Akhenaten visiting Apocalypse (calling himself "Aten" at the time) in his temple. According to historians Akhenaten ruled about 3,500 years ago, which would place the scene at around 1500 BC."

Thanks, Marc. According to THE END, in the Marvel Universe Akhenaten reigned from 1351-1334 BC.

By the way, does the H2 scene show one way or another if "Aten" is currently the official god of Egypt?

According to history, Akhenaten made Aten the official god "early in his reign", and went on to build Aten a large temple near Karnak. So if Akhenaten is visiting *Aten's temple* in H2 #457, then if real-world history is to be believed, it's likely AFTER Aten was made the official Egyptian god.

Therefore, unless it says different in the issue, I place the H2 #457 flashback here...


END #1  FB (p.3)  1351-1334 BC. General scenes of Akhenaten's reign.

END #2  FB (p.14 panels 1-3)  Akhenaten makes Aten the new god of Egypt

*H2 #457 - FB - Akhenaten visits Aten, revealed here as Apocalypse, in the temple he built him after crowning him Egypt's official god.

END #1  FB (p.4 panels 1-2)  Akhenaten walks outside one night in 1334 BC...


Incidentally, Akhenaten's real, birth name was Amenhotep IV. We could list this in the MCP in "codename/real name" format, if we wanted... ;-)

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Dr. Doom and Akhenaten's chronologies
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on December 12, 2003 at 13:29:03:
In Reply to: Re: Dr. Doom and Akhenaten's chronologies 
posted by Jeph! on December 12, 2003 at 12:42:12:

> Thanks, Marc. According to THE END, in the Marvel Universe Akhenaten reigned from 1351-1334 BC.

After a quick double-check, I found two sources saying that he ruled from 1352-1336 BD in the real world, so I suspect my earlier account was simply off by a couple hundred years. :)

> By the way, does the H2 scene show one way or another if "Aten" is currently the official god of Egypt?

Yes, it's made plain that Akhenaten and his people are worshipping Aten/ Apocalypse at the time.

> According to history, Akhenaten made Aten the official god "early in his reign", and went on to build Aten a large temple near Karnak. So if Akhenaten is visiting *Aten's temple* in H2 #457, then if real-world history is to be believed, it's likely AFTER Aten was made the official Egyptian god.

Yep.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch 

			*	*	*

Akhenaten's full chronology

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ Home ] [ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ Chronology Project Web Board ] [ FAQ ]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by Jeph! on December 30, 2003 at 12:24:06:

In Reply to: Re: Dr. Doom and Akhenaten's chronologies posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on December 12, 2003 at 13:29:03:

Another post I could have sworn I replied to, but didn't...

Thanks for the help, Marc. To sum up, then, Akhenaten's full chronology in proper MCP format should look like this:

AKHENATEN/AMENHOTEP IV

END 1FB
END 2FB
H2 457-FB
END 1FB
END 3FB ~ END 4FB
END 1FB
END 2FB
END 1FB ~ END 3FB ~ END 4FB
END 1FB
END 2FB
END 1FB-BTS ~ END 3FB-BTS
END 2FB
END 1FB
END 3FB
END 2FB
END 3FB
END 4FB


-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Thor, Thunderbolts, the End, and X-chronology
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 11, 2003 at 21:52:40:
In Reply to: Smoothing out THE END, in relation to the X-Books 
posted by Jeph! on December 10, 2003 at 00:24:22:

Jeph, your post raises a few issues that will undoubtedly force some adjustments to the calendar. Comments below...

> However  the END series also stars Thor, in his Lord-of-Asgard mode. Now, Thor, in his PRE-Lord-of-Asgard mode, shows up in the background of one panel in XX #11  meaning that the XX #10-18 arc should take place BEFORE Thor becomes Lord of Asgard  and therefore, before the END.

> So can we place Rogue, Gambit and Storm's appearances here after XX #18? Well, Gambit's power loss isn't confirmed until XX #19  so he could have a little power left, if we place this series between XX #18-19. Rogue COULD just be jumping off the balcony, as Paul suggested  although, she REALLY looks like she's hovering. If she's jumping, that's one of the oddest midair poses I've ever seen. 

Well, ya can't blame a guy for trying...

> And Storm? Well, if we place this series between XX #18-19, which would work for Gambit  there's really no way that Storm could be standing up. In XXX #1, which occurs after XX #19, her rehab was just beginning, and her legs wouldn't support her weight.

> Can we place this later on, after XXX #1 and after Storm has regained the ability to walk (which she next demonstrates in X #132)? Yes  but Gambit and Rogue don't have their powers then  so we're going back around in a circle. Really, the best place for the X-Treme team is between XX #9-10  but there's that pesky pre-Lord Thor cameo in XX #11

> Or is there? Look at the way Thor pops up in XX #11  he's hidden almost entirely behind a word balloon, and what's visible of him is badly miscolored (blue arms?). And, in every subsequent Avengers cameo in that arc, in XX #13 and #18  Thor isn't there. It almost looks like his presence in that single panel is an art mistake  a mistake that the editors tried to cover up. More than anything, it reminds me of the end of ORDER #5, where Quasar  who wasn't supposed to be there, since he was pretty much exiled from Earth at the end of MAXSEC #3  was covered up by Captain America's word balloon, and didn't appear at all in ORDER #6.

> Could that be what this was? A concerted effort on the part of the editorial staff to say that Thor WASN'T actually in XX #11 after all? That his presence was a hastily-covered art mistake? If so, then perhaps we CAN push XX #10-18 forward  into the time when Thor is Lord of Asgard  and we CAN place the END series between XX #9-10 after all.

If they wanted to nix Thor, I think they have the technology to completely erase his presence on that one panel in XX 11 and not resort to a big ol' word balloon and some blue shading to make him inconspicuous.

There's no doubt the guy is there (unless there's a blue-tinted cardboard cutout of Thor the Avengers like to keep around). Now, if I need an official ruling about placing issues of a single title out of numerical sequence to get calendar placement to make sense, I propose that we get some official ruling from Marvel that Thor did not appear in XX 11 (something like: "I am the great and powerful editor. Pay no attention to that god behind the word balloon!"). Hey, they retracted Tigra's much more prominent appearance in that Avengers Annual some time ago...

I actually wouldn't mind it if Thor were pronounced not present in XX 11; it would allow the placement of END between XX 9 and 10, and I'd need to shuffle XX 10-18 on the calendar (they now occur before END).


> So, how do we discount Archangel's skin color? Simple  he forgot to turn off his image inducer. Heh. ;-)

Coloring error, natch. Art mistake like Mattie Franklin.


> Also, a few notes: BobMM noted back in post #5162 that in terms of the Thunderbolts, this series occurs after T-Bolts #68, as Moonstone has her new black costume, and before T-Bolts #74, as Atlas is still combined with Dallas Riordan. He stated that it probably occurred between or during T-Bolts #69-70. I just wanted to mention this again, since Paul never replied to it before  and at last count, he had placed the series after T-Bolts #75.

Yup, I completely missed that post. BobMM is absolutely right -- the END must occur before TB 74. Placing the END between or during TB 69-70 would mean that the mini-series took place earlier in the same day of TB 75 (1-23).

This will force me to push the later issues of TB to a later point on the calendar, which shouldn't be a problem, and would actually allow that "twelve-week" period between TB 67-FB and TB 67. Like dominos, placing TB later forces DEADLINE to a later point (because of Hawkeye), and now that I look at things, there may be no good reason not to place DEADLINE in October as noted on a newspaper date in that series.


All that having been said, how's that new X-calendar going, Jeph? Anything I can do? :)

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Thor, Thunderbolts, the End, and X-chronology
Posted by Jeph! on December 11, 2003 at 22:49:14:
In Reply to: Thor, Thunderbolts, the End, and X-chronology 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 11, 2003 at 21:52:40:

> Jeph, your post raises a few issues that will undoubtedly force some adjustments to the calendar.

That's why I'm here. :-)

> > Rogue COULD just be jumping off the balcony, as Paul suggested  although, she REALLY looks like she's hovering. If she's jumping, that's one of the oddest midair poses I've ever seen. 

> Well, ya can't blame a guy for trying...

Blame! BLAME!!


> If they wanted to nix Thor, I think they have the technology to completely erase his presence on that one panel in XX 11 and not resort to a big ol' word balloon and some blue shading to make him inconspicuous.

You'd think -- but you're assuming that the editor caught the mistake on the first go-around. If it was a last-minute "hey look, the book is going to press -- EEEEK, that's Thor" sort of thing, I wouldn't be surprised if they handled it by slapping the word balloon on him.

Conversely, if an editor saw a word balloon slapped over the face of a charecter who was SUPPOSED to guest-star, don't you think he'd request that it be moved?

> Now, if I need an official ruling about placing issues of a single title out of numerical sequence to get calendar placement to make sense, I propose that we get some official ruling from Marvel that Thor did not appear in XX 11 (something like: "I am the great and powerful editor. Pay no attention to that god behind the word balloon!").

Well, the editor there was Andrew Lis (with assistant Lynne Yoshi). Drop them a line.

However, I think you're coming at this a bit wrong. Russ, who manages the MCP (which is not heavily calendar-based), asked you for official evidence from Marvel before he'd shuffle the order of books in a single series based purely on calendar evidence -- because shuffling without major evidence isn't MCP policy. He never challenged your right to do so on YOUR calendar -- he simply said he wouldn't use your calendar order for his MCP order without some better proof.

Here, I've suggested a change that has nothing to do with calendar evidence -- it's based purely on character evidence. And it doesn't involve changing the order of books WITHIN a single series.

In simple terms, my suggestion is the lesser of two evils: either we place THE END after XX #18, and we screw over the chronologies of three characters (Rogue, Gambit, and Storm), or we place it before XX #10, and screw over the chronology of ONE character (Thor). I further backed it up by showing evidence that Thor's single-panel appearance looked like it had been "tampered" with -- whereas no effort seemed to be made to mess with or "fix" the art in THE END #1.

If you need a statement from Marvel to change things on your calendar -- so be it. However, I make this suggestion to the MCP -- and I'll leave it up to Russ to tell me if he needs more to go on. No offense meant, Paul.

By the way, Tom Brevoort was the editor on ORDER #5, where a similar stunt was pulled by covering Quasar with a word balloon. Do you count Quasar as appearing in ORDER #5? Why/why not? Tom's probably more easily contacted than Andrew -- shall we drop him a line too, and ask if he meant to cover Quasar, and if so, why didn't he just use computers to white him out entirely?


> Hey, they retracted Tigra's much more prominent appearance in that Avengers Annual some time ago...

Yeah, but it's really two different regimes there. Nowadays they're not catering to the fans who'd actually notice that. Although, that on-panel John Byrne apology sure is a hoot...

> I actually wouldn't mind it if Thor were pronounced not present in XX 11...

So pronounce it. It's your calendar, baby -- you own it!


> > So, how do we discount Archangel's skin color?
>
> Coloring error, natch. Art mistake like Mattie Franklin.

Or like Thor in XX #11. Zing! ;-)


> Like dominos, placing TB later forces DEADLINE to a later point (because of Hawkeye), and now that I look at things, there may be no good reason not to place DEADLINE in October as noted on a newspaper date in that series.

I don't know why I have this on my mind, but I do: Spider-Man: Sweet Charity needs to be after TB #75 to account for the Hawkeye mention, and before XX #19 to account for the mention of Wolverine and Rogue being auctioned as a unit. I don't have the issue, but I have it placed between XX #18-19. Watch out for this when you're pushing TB #75 forward...

> how's that new X-calendar going, Jeph? Anything I can do? :)

It's going slowly. Feel free to poke me in the butt with sharp sticks every now and again...

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Thor, Thunderbolts, the End, and X-chronology
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 12, 2003 at 22:27:23:
In Reply to: Re: Thor, Thunderbolts, the End, and X-chronology 
posted by Jeph! on December 11, 2003 at 22:49:14:

> Conversely, if an editor saw a word balloon slapped over the face of a charecter who was SUPPOSED to guest-star, don't you think he'd request that it be moved?

Dunno about that. I've seen some pretty sloppily placed word balloons over the years...


> Here, I've suggested a change that has nothing to do with calendar evidence -- it's based purely on character evidence. And it doesn't involve changing the order of books WITHIN a single series.

No, but it DOES involve declaring a character not in a book in which he clearly appears, despite the word balloon placement. And you're theorizing about creator motivations regarding that character's inclusion or exclusion. To me, that's rather major.

At least with a reshuffling of issues, we have a complete listing of appearances. But you're dealing with appearance vs. no appearance at all.

Your argument regarding the impact this has on the chronologies of three X-Men are well taken. The question comes down to a policy issue for the MCP. What evidence is needed to declare a character appearance in a canon comic null and void? Russ?


> By the way, Tom Brevoort was the editor on ORDER #5, where a similar stunt was pulled by covering Quasar with a word balloon. Do you count Quasar as appearing in ORDER #5? Why/why not? 

I have him in ORDER 5. Why? It is true that he was "exiled" from earth in MAXSEC 3. But while all of his other appearances since (beside ORDER 5) have been in space there has been no specific reference to that exile. So we don't know for sure that Reed and Hank were unsuccessful in finding a solution for Wendell "in no time." My approach is to keep Quasar in ORDER 5 and readdress the issue if his exile comes up again.


> > > So, how do we discount Archangel's skin color?
> >
> > Coloring error, natch. Art mistake like Mattie Franklin.

Actually, now that I think about it, who says that the Spider-Woman rendering WAS a mistake? We all know Mattie made a habit of changing costumes. Maybe she actually did adopt the costume design worn by Spider-Girl.


> Or like Thor in XX #11. Zing! ;-)

No zing. Thor's not there, remember? ;-)


> 
> > Like dominos, placing TB later forces DEADLINE to a later point (because of Hawkeye), and now that I look at things, there may be no good reason not to place DEADLINE in October as noted on a newspaper date in that series.

I want to elaborate on my previous statement here. I think I can place DEADLINE in October after rethinking that whole Cap identity reference in issue #1. The content of a "rumor" web site, Captain America: Whos Under the Mask Now?, suggests that Cap has resurfaced publicly after his presumed death, which he would have done in the Kang War; the rumor does not suggest placement before or after the public revelation of Caps identity in CA3 3  this story probably occurs afterward and an online rumor mill may be spreading false information that soneone other than Steve Rogers has assumed the Cap identity.


> I don't know why I have this on my mind, but I do: Spider-Man: Sweet Charity needs to be after TB #75 to account for the Hawkeye mention, and before XX #19 to account for the mention of Wolverine and Rogue being auctioned as a unit. I don't have the issue, but I have it placed between XX #18-19. Watch out for this when you're pushing TB #75 forward...

Actually, I'm glad this popped into your mind. I'll give Sweet Charity (and other comics with which it needs to have a before/after relationship) some serious thought. Thanks!

I also need to deal with the numerous time passage references peppered throughout Thunderbolts and make sure that the repositioning of TB 75 doesn't adversely affect placement of TB 57, the issue with a bunch of guest appearances.


> > how's that new X-calendar going, Jeph? Anything I can do? :)

> It's going slowly. Feel free to poke me in the butt with sharp sticks every now and again...

Will do, 'cause I have another X-related issue for you regarding the time period prior to the current calendar. But it's best to wait until we have some resolution on the current assignment.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Thor, baby.
Posted by Jeph! on December 12, 2003 at 22:45:22:
In Reply to: Re: Thor, Thunderbolts, the End, and X-chronology 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 12, 2003 at 22:27:23:

> > Here, I've suggested a change that ... [is] based purely on character evidence. And it doesn't involve changing the order of books WITHIN a single series.

> No, but it DOES involve declaring a character not in a book in which he clearly appears, despite the word balloon placement. To me, that's rather major.

All right -- maybe we should drop Andrew Lis a note. However, I'm worried that since he left the company -- and by many accounts, he was shuffled out -- he may not be easily reachable, or be of any mind to discuss things. 

> Your argument regarding the impact this has on the chronologies of three X-Men are well taken.

Thank you. So is yours, regarding the impact of leaving this appearance OUT of Thor's chronology.

> The question comes down to a policy issue for the MCP. What evidence is needed to declare a character appearance in a canon comic null and void? Russ?

Paul, would an acceptable alternative be to include this appearance in Thor's chronology, but claim that his COSTUME was an art error? That he's SUPPOSED to be Lord Thor, but was drawn in the wrong outfit?

> My approach is to keep Quasar in ORDER 5 and readdress the issue if his exile comes up again.

I think the main reason that I, personally, don't include him in ORDER #5 is that he does NOT show up, even in one single panel, of ORDER #6 -- the battle which continues DIRECTLY from the end of #5.

His disappearance between issues, combined with the word balloon placement, makes me think that he wasn't supposed to be there at all.

Maybe I'll drop Kurt and Tom a line as well -- just for some insight.

> Actually, now that I think about it, who says that the Spider-Woman rendering WAS a mistake?

Well, c'mon, it clearly was. ;-)

> We all know Mattie made a habit of changing costumes. Maybe she actually did adopt the costume design worn by Spider-Girl.

Could be ... however, now that I think about it -- what was Mattie's status at the end of her recent appearance in ALIAS? Did she still have her powers? (Heck, which came first? THE END takes place a ways back, after all...)

> > Or like Thor in XX #11. Zing! ;-)

> No zing. Thor's not there, remember? ;-)

That's the spirit!

> I think I can place DEADLINE in October after rethinking that whole Cap identity reference in issue #1. The content of a "rumor" web site, Captain America: Whos Under the Mask Now?, suggests that Cap has resurfaced publicly after his presumed death, which he would have done in the Kang War; the rumor does not suggest placement before or after the public revelation of Caps identity in CA3 3  this story probably occurs afterward and an online rumor mill may be spreading false information that soneone other than Steve Rogers has assumed the Cap identity.

Hmm. I liked it the other way better, personally ... how badly would you have to stretch the "October" reference to keep Deadline between the Kang War and Cap v4?

> I'll give Sweet Charity (and other comics with which it needs to have a before/after relationship) some serious thought. Thanks!

No sweat!

> I have another X-related issue for you regarding the time period prior to the current calendar. But it's best to wait until we have some resolution on the current assignment.

No, no, lay it on me now! I'm itching to show off the X-map I built that covers from O:ZT to the Revolution (X-Men #62-99). If your question is about that time period, I may already have an answer ready to go.

Besides, remember when we were going to do "Inferno" right after the Kang War? If you don't ask me now it may never get asked.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

That darn Thor!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 13, 2003 at 10:51:53:
In Reply to: Thor, baby. 
posted by Jeph! on December 12, 2003 at 22:45:22:

> All right -- maybe we should drop Andrew Lis a note. However, I'm worried that since he left the company -- and by many accounts, he was shuffled out -- he may not be easily reachable, or be of any mind to discuss things. 

Dang! Maybe assistant editor Lynne Yoshii or editor-in-chief Joe Quesada? I don't really follow the comings and goings at Marvel, so I'm not sure who's still around.


> Paul, would an acceptable alternative be to include this appearance in Thor's chronology, but claim that his COSTUME was an art error? That he's SUPPOSED to be Lord Thor, but was drawn in the wrong outfit?

That's a bit easier for me to swallow, and it is plausible for King Thor to appear in XX 11 with the Avengers right after M/DS 2/2. It might be worth considering Thor's presence at Avengers Mansion to be part of the same visit shown in M/DS 2/2. Heck, he could even be BALD in XX 11 as a result of Loki's prank. (That was a mercy word balloon to protect Thor's dignity. Yeah, that's the ticket...)

Placing XX 10-18 right after M/DS 2/2 on the current calendar would mean that Nightcrawler appears in XX 18 during the "week" between UX 408 and 409. Beast and Jean would be in XX 18 between END and X 127. Does this jibe with your X-calendar, Jeph?


> > My approach is to keep Quasar in ORDER 5 and readdress the issue if his exile comes up again.

> I think the main reason that I, personally, don't include him in ORDER #5 is that he does NOT show up, even in one single panel, of ORDER #6 -- the battle which continues DIRECTLY from the end of #5.

> His disappearance between issues, combined with the word balloon placement, makes me think that he wasn't supposed to be there at all.

> Maybe I'll drop Kurt and Tom a line as well -- just for some insight.

That would be cool.


> > We all know Mattie made a habit of changing costumes. Maybe she actually did adopt the costume design worn by Spider-Girl.

> Could be ... however, now that I think about it -- what was Mattie's status at the end of her recent appearance in ALIAS? Did she still have her powers? (Heck, which came first? THE END takes place a ways back, after all...)

The END occurs before ALIAS #16, so no problem there.


> > I think I can place DEADLINE in October after rethinking that whole Cap identity reference in issue #1. The content of a "rumor" web site, Captain America: Whos Under the Mask Now?, suggests that Cap has resurfaced publicly after his presumed death, which he would have done in the Kang War; the rumor does not suggest placement before or after the public revelation of Caps identity in CA4 3  this story probably occurs afterward and an online rumor mill may be spreading false information that soneone other than Steve Rogers has assumed the Cap identity.

> Hmm. I liked it the other way better, personally ... how badly would you have to stretch the "October" reference to keep Deadline between the Kang War and Cap v4?

The old placement was in July, but I like the October reference better, not only because the newspaper date of "Tuesday, October 8" exactly matches the calendar, but because of other clues -- colder weather, and the fact that it's supposed to be "six months" after "June" (well, that's obviously wrong, but we should place this "months" after June in any case).

The more I look at that computer screen in DEADLINE #1 and the fact that we're looking at a "rumor" website in which someone claims to have slept with Thor, the less I like relying on the content of that website for placement. You know how rumormongers and conspiracy theorists work -- stories don't have to be grounded in reality. It's entirely believable that someone in the MU started a rumor that Steve Rogers gave up the Cap ID and that the guy running around in Cap's costume is someone else: "Who's under the mask now?"

The only other issue I see here is the battle between Spidey and Doc Ock in DEADLINE #2. An October setting would place this battle between PPSM2 41 and ASM2 43. Antonio is working on the revised Spidey chronology, and hopefully this works okay with that.


> > I'll give Sweet Charity (and other comics with which it needs to have a before/after relationship) some serious thought. Thanks!

> No sweat!

Damn! I thought of a problem immediately -- Thor (once again!) He appears as Lord Thor in the END, which is supposed to occur before TB 75 (for the sake of Atlas), which is supposed to occur before Sweet Charity (for Hawkeye's sake). Thor also appears in Sweet Charity, but with his classic pre-Lord duds, suggesting placement *before* END. Argh! That darn Thor!

So we have another Asgardian-sized paradox here. It's highly unlikely that Lord Thor would have redonned his old costume and particpated in a date auction. It may have been for a good cause, but Thor probably would have considered this to be inappropriate for the King of Asgard.

This forces us to either: have Hawkeye appear here while on the lam (also not likely) or have the Dallas/Erik incarnation of Atlas resurface after Dallas and Erik were separated in TB 74. Could Erik and Dallas have discovered that they could re-merge?


> > I have another X-related issue for you regarding the time period prior to the current calendar. But it's best to wait until we have some resolution on the current assignment.

> No, no, lay it on me now! I'm itching to show off the X-map I built that covers from O:ZT to the Revolution (X-Men #62-99). If your question is about that time period, I may already have an answer ready to go.

> Besides, remember when we were going to do "Inferno" right after the Kang War? If you don't ask me now it may never get asked.

Okay, I'll post that separately.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: That darn Thor!
Posted by Antonio Gavio on December 13, 2003 at 15:36:53:
In Reply to: That darn Thor! 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 13, 2003 at 10:51:53:

A few points that I want to address:

> > > I think I can place DEADLINE in October after rethinking that whole Cap identity reference in issue #1. The content of a "rumor" web site, Captain America: Whos Under the Mask Now?, suggests that Cap has resurfaced publicly after his presumed death, which he would have done in the Kang War; the rumor does not suggest placement before or after the public revelation of Caps identity in CA4 3  this story probably occurs afterward and an online rumor mill may be spreading false information that soneone other than Steve Rogers has assumed the Cap identity.

> > Hmm. I liked it the other way better, personally ... how badly would you have to stretch the "October" reference to keep Deadline between the Kang War and Cap v4?

> The old placement was in July, but I like the October reference better, not only because the newspaper date of "Tuesday, October 8" exactly matches the calendar, but because of other clues -- colder weather, and the fact that it's supposed to be "six months" after "June" (well, that's obviously wrong, but we should place this "months" after June in any case).

> The more I look at that computer screen in DEADLINE #1 and the fact that we're looking at a "rumor" website in which someone claims to have slept with Thor, the less I like relying on the content of that website for placement. You know how rumormongers and conspiracy theorists work -- stories don't have to be grounded in reality. It's entirely believable that someone in the MU started a rumor that Steve Rogers gave up the Cap ID and that the guy running around in Cap's costume is someone else: "Who's under the mask now?"

> The only other issue I see here is the battle between Spidey and Doc Ock in DEADLINE #2. An October setting would place this battle between PPSM2 41 and ASM2 43. Antonio is working on the revised Spidey chronology, and hopefully this works okay with that.

I'll take a look and see about it, I like the idea of not taking the website rumor into account, also it seems to me that neither of you guys actually have the whole run of DEADLINE, so in case you guys don't know, there's snow in issue 3 or 4 of DEADLINE. Something to take into consideration for calendar placement.

> 
> > > I'll give Sweet Charity (and other comics with which it needs to have a before/after relationship) some serious thought. Thanks!

> > No sweat!

> Damn! I thought of a problem immediately -- Thor (once again!) He appears as Lord Thor in the END, which is supposed to occur before TB 75 (for the sake of Atlas), which is supposed to occur before Sweet Charity (for Hawkeye's sake). Thor also appears in Sweet Charity, but with his classic pre-Lord duds, suggesting placement *before* END. Argh! That darn Thor!

> So we have another Asgardian-sized paradox here. It's highly unlikely that Lord Thor would have redonned his old costume and particpated in a date auction. It may have been for a good cause, but Thor probably would have considered this to be inappropriate for the King of Asgard.

> This forces us to either: have Hawkeye appear here while on the lam (also not likely) or have the Dallas/Erik incarnation of Atlas resurface after Dallas and Erik were separated in TB 74. Could Erik and Dallas have discovered that they could re-merge?

Also for placement of Sweet Charity let's not forget Matt Murdock's appearance that shouldn't happen during the 26 days he takes in Japan to avoid the media about the revelation of his identity.

Then there's ALIAS 28 showing the Avengers and revealing the three months pregnancy of Jessica Jones (meaning Matt Murdock's denying of being DAREDEVIL should happen inside those three months starting at the time she goes to bed with Luke Cage and ending at the end of ALIAS 28).

Antonio 

			*	*	*

Deadline and Alias (this thread is wandering...)
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 13, 2003 at 20:11:21:
In Reply to: Re: That darn Thor! 
posted by Antonio Gavio on December 13, 2003 at 15:36:53:

> > The more I look at that computer screen in DEADLINE #1 and the fact that we're looking at a "rumor" website in which someone claims to have slept with Thor, the less I like relying on the content of that website for placement. You know how rumormongers and conspiracy theorists work -- stories don't have to be grounded in reality. It's entirely believable that someone in the MU started a rumor that Steve Rogers gave up the Cap ID and that the guy running around in Cap's costume is someone else: "Who's under the mask now?"

> > The only other issue I see here is the battle between Spidey and Doc Ock in DEADLINE #2. An October setting would place this battle between PPSM2 41 and ASM2 43. Antonio is working on the revised Spidey chronology, and hopefully this works okay with that.

> I'll take a look and see about it, I like the idea of not taking the website rumor into account, also it seems to me that neither of you guys actually have the whole run of DEADLINE, so in case you guys don't know, there's snow in issue 3 or 4 of DEADLINE. Something to take into consideration for calendar placement.

I have all four issues, and yes, the implication is that the story is definitely not a summertime tale. We also see coats, and Kat has "a freezing tush." As far as I'm concerned, July is out of the question and the debate should be between an October and a December ("six months" after "June") placement. If it's December, then by my calculations Doc Ock's appearance in DEADLINE #2 would be after ASM2 45, not before ASM2 43.


> Also for placement of Sweet Charity let's not forget Matt Murdock's appearance that shouldn't happen during the 26 days he takes in Japan to avoid the media about the revelation of his identity.

Good point. It wouldn't be a problem if Sweet Charity ends up being placed after END, assuming calendar placement of END remains where it is. But we still have that pesky Atlas/Hawkeye/Thor issue.


> Then there's ALIAS 28 showing the Avengers and revealing the three months pregnancy of Jessica Jones (meaning Matt Murdock's denying of being DAREDEVIL should happen inside those three months starting at the time she goes to bed with Luke Cage and ending at the end of ALIAS 28).

Antonio, please elaborate on this, as I can't consult a number of ALIAS issues personally and don't have a synopsis for issues #22-23. I currently have a big gap of seven months between ALIAS 21 and 24, which would mean Jessica was intimate with Luke while dating Scott. I can't say that would be out of character, but if there's a reference that Jessica and Luke had sex only once, that incident would need to be placed three months before ALIAS 28. And I don't know how that incident relates chronologically to Matt's denying he's Daredevil.

--Paul 

			*	*	*

Re: Deadline and Alias (this thread is wandering...)
Posted by Antonio Gavino on December 15, 2003 at 19:23:49:
In Reply to: Deadline and Alias (this thread is wandering...) 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 13, 2003 at 20:11:21:

>> I'll take a look and see about it, I like the idea of not taking the website rumor into account, also it seems to me that neither of you guys actually have the whole run of DEADLINE, so in case you guys don't know, there's snow in issue 3 or 4 of DEADLINE. Something to take into consideration for calendar placement.

>I have all four issues, and yes, the implication is that the story is definitely not a summertime tale. We also see coats, and Kat has "a freezing tush." As far as I'm concerned, July is out of the question and the debate should be between an October and a December ("six months" after "June") placement. If it's December, then by my calculations Doc Ock's appearance in DEADLINE #2 would be after ASM2 45, not before ASM2 43.

Have you thought that it could be December of the previous year? How that does work for Hawkeye?

> > Then there's ALIAS 28 showing the Avengers and revealing the three months pregnancy of Jessica Jones (meaning Matt Murdock's denying of being DAREDEVIL should happen inside those three months starting at the time she goes to bed with Luke Cage and ending at the end of ALIAS 28).

> Antonio, please elaborate on this, as I can't consult a number of ALIAS issues personally and don't have a synopsis for issues #22-23. I currently have a big gap of seven months between ALIAS 21 and 24, which would mean Jessica was intimate with Luke while dating Scott. I can't say that would be out of character, but if there's a reference that Jessica and Luke had sex only once, that incident would need to be placed three months before ALIAS 28. And I don't know how that incident relates chronologically to Matt's denying he's Daredevil.

As far as I know it was a 'once only' thing, but I could be wrong since I don't have earlier issues of ALIAS. Jessica Jones is talking to Luke Cage (in ALIAS 15) outside Matt's office and they mention their one night affair, when Black Widow shows up to talk to Murdock, these events are also shown in DD2 36 right after Matt's conference denying he's Daredevil.

Antonio 

			*	*	*

Re: Deadline and Alias (this thread is wandering...)
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 15, 2003 at 20:00:16:
In Reply to: Re: Deadline and Alias (this thread is wandering...) 
posted by Antonio Gavino on December 15, 2003 at 19:23:49:

> >> I'll take a look and see about it, I like the idea of not taking the website rumor into account, also it seems to me that neither of you guys actually have the whole run of DEADLINE, so in case you guys don't know, there's snow in issue 3 or 4 of DEADLINE. Something to take into consideration for calendar placement.

> >I have all four issues, and yes, the implication is that the story is definitely not a summertime tale. We also see coats, and Kat has "a freezing tush." As far as I'm concerned, July is out of the question and the debate should be between an October and a December ("six months" after "June") placement. If it's December, then by my calculations Doc Ock's appearance in DEADLINE #2 would be after ASM2 45, not before ASM2 43.

> Have you thought that it could be December of the previous year? How that does work for Hawkeye?

Not well. He's incarcerated at that point.


> > > Then there's ALIAS 28 showing the Avengers and revealing the three months pregnancy of Jessica Jones (meaning Matt Murdock's denying of being DAREDEVIL should happen inside those three months starting at the time she goes to bed with Luke Cage and ending at the end of ALIAS 28).

> > Antonio, please elaborate on this, as I can't consult a number of ALIAS issues personally and don't have a synopsis for issues #22-23. I currently have a big gap of seven months between ALIAS 21 and 24, which would mean Jessica was intimate with Luke while dating Scott. I can't say that would be out of character, but if there's a reference that Jessica and Luke had sex only once, that incident would need to be placed three months before ALIAS 28. And I don't know how that incident relates chronologically to Matt's denying he's Daredevil.

> As far as I know it was a 'once only' thing, but I could be wrong since I don't have earlier issues of ALIAS. Jessica Jones is talking to Luke Cage (in ALIAS 15) outside Matt's office and they mention their one night affair, when Black Widow shows up to talk to Murdock, these events are also shown in DD2 36 right after Matt's conference denying he's Daredevil.

I'd actually be interested to know if Jessica and Luke got together again after this point.

The problem is that Ant-Man appears in his new costume in ALIAS #24, which must occur after A3 63, in which he appears in his old costume. A3 63 continues from IM3 64, which occurs after IM3 63. IM3 63 is set during the Christmas season, and that's a good five months after ALIAS #15. Also, A3 63 occurs after T2 53, which occurs "a hundred days" after T2 51 -- another reference to it being a while between the summer of ALIAS #15 and A3 63.

If Jessica is "three months" pregnant with Luke's child in ALIAS #28, then either: 1) they had sex on at least one subsequent occasion; or 2) we'll have to do some serious juggling.

--Paul

			*	*	*

That darn Sweet Charity!
Posted by Jeph! on December 14, 2003 at 00:43:28:
In Reply to: That darn Thor! 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 13, 2003 at 10:51:53:

> > Paul, would an acceptable alternative be to include this appearance in Thor's chronology, but claim that his COSTUME was an art error? That he's SUPPOSED to be Lord Thor, but was drawn in the wrong outfit?

> That's a bit easier for me to swallow, and it is plausible for King Thor to appear in XX 11 with the Avengers right after M/DS 2/2.

So have we reached a good compromise then? Thor IS in XX #11, but his costume is drawn wrong?

(Hey, maybe he's using an image inducer, to save face because he's bald? But it hasn't been reprogrammed with his new costume? And also it's blue? Heh. Never mind.)


> Placing XX 10-18 right after M/DS 2/2 on the current calendar would mean that Nightcrawler appears in XX 18 during the "week" between UX 408 and 409. Beast and Jean would be in XX 18 between END and X 127. Does this jibe with your X-calendar, Jeph?

I hate breaking up a story arc if it can be avoided (UX #408-409)  but quite a lot of time does pass in those issues. If there's no way of shuffling UX #408-409 up or down to allow XX #18 to occur before one or after the other, I suppose we'll have to let it go.

Beast and Jean's placement is fine and dandy, though.


> > I think I can place DEADLINE in October 

A thought, here  where do UX #410-413 occur in relation to this "October" placement? If memory serves, the Juggernaut appears in Deadline #1  and he's getting a tattoo of an "X" on his shoulder. He's able to GET a tattoo, even if  since we've never seen it again  it must have "healed" off of him, so this probably occurs after his power was recently halved. But we don't yet know when that was  although this week's issue of UX (#435) promises to shed some light on it. (It's certainly prior to UX #410, and probably after Deadpool v3 #61.)

I can't figure out if he's getting the "X" tattoo as some kind of ironic, self-indulgent thing, knowing that it'll heal right off (X-Men Forever told us that Cain has secretly always wanted to be a mutant)  or if this is after UX #413, and Cain's seriously thinking of trying to join the X-Men.

(By the way, I've noted this before, but  UX #410-413 occur over TWO days, not one. It's afternoon and evening (after school) when Prof. X offers his school to Sammy Pare, sunrise when Cyclops gets Havok from the convalescent home, and daytime again when the wounded X-Men return from Cassidy Keep.)


> > Sweet Charity

> Damn! I thought of a problem immediately -- Thor (once again!) He appears as Lord Thor in the END, which is supposed to occur before TB 75 (for the sake of Atlas), which is supposed to occur before Sweet Charity (for Hawkeye's sake). Thor also appears in Sweet Charity, but with his classic pre-Lord duds, suggesting placement *before* END. Argh! That darn Thor!

> This forces us to either: have Hawkeye appear here while on the lam (also not likely) or have the Dallas/Erik incarnation of Atlas resurface after Dallas and Erik were separated in TB 74. Could Erik and Dallas have discovered that they could re-merge?

I doubt they can  if I remember right, they spent all their excess ionic energy sealing the rift in TB #74  TB #75 showed that Erik had regained his size-chainging powers, and Dallas had gained enhanced reflexes, but neither had any energy-based powers left.

I may have a solution here. If we need to push "Sweet Charity" backwards to allow Thor to appear pre-Lord of Asgard, why don't we just keep pushing? How far back do we have to go to find a spot for Hawkeye to participate?

Let's see here  the issue was a 9/11 fundraiser  so we can't go back before TB #49. Hawkeye helps clean up the WTC site in-between TB #49-50  gets arrested in TB #50, is let out briefly to help the Avengers fight Ultron in "Avengers: the Ultron Imperative"  has a jailbreak in TB #57, is on the lam for the entirety of Graviton's attack AND the Kang War, and basically continues to be on the lam until TB #74. Which is too late, since going by THE END #5, Thor is already Lord Thor by TB #74.

I see two spots to place "Sweet Charity"  one is just after 9/11 and prior to TB #50  although it probably involves widening the gap between TB #49-50, and means ignoring some temporal clues (I believe the issue states that "two days" separate the issues). The other spot is sometime close to "the Ultron Imperative"  using the logic that, heck, if they're going to briefly let him out of jail to fight someone because the Avengers ask nicely, why won't they briefly let him out again, to help raise money for a horrible tragedy, if the Avengers asked nicely a second time? Hell, Hawkeye's only in prison as a plant anyway.

It's possible that both of Hawkeye's "releases" occurred in the space between his initial arrest and his sentencing to a specific prison  while he was being held awaiting his hearing, or whatever, he was released on his own recognizance for official Avengers business. It's possible that "Sweet Charity" could occur the day after "the Ulron Imperative", and Hawkeye only had ONE period out of jail. (Wait, is Hank Pym Goliath or Yellowjacket in "Sweet Charity"?)

Just a thought  Hawkeye being released for a special event is more plausible than Hawkeye participating in a special event while on the lam  and given that we KNOW Hawkeye was released ONCE, we know that it IS possible for him to be released.

I don't have the issue, so there may be big placement hints that I'm totally overlooking  but how does something like that sound?

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

The End, Thunderbolts, X-Treme X-Men & Thor
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 14, 2003 at 15:48:34:
In Reply to: That darn Sweet Charity! 
posted by Jeph! on December 14, 2003 at 00:43:28:

> > > Paul, would an acceptable alternative be to include this appearance in Thor's chronology, but claim that his COSTUME was an art error? That he's SUPPOSED to be Lord Thor, but was drawn in the wrong outfit?

I'll accept that, AND I have a new theory about his placement here. How's this for a plausible sequence of events?

Thor leaves the Avengers for Asgard in A3 61. The next day, it is here that he is seen in the END. Rogue, Gambit, and Storm are seen as okay in END, and the Dallas/Erik Atlas appears. Later that day, Erik and Dallas are separated in TB 74.

The day after that, the Thunderbolts saga ends and Moonstone takes Hawkeye to Washington, DC in TB 75. That same day, the Khan invasion occurs. Thor learns of the Khan situation and returns to Avengers Mansion to offer assistance. It is here we find him with Wonder Man, Yellowjacket, Wasp, Warbird, Scarlet Witch, Captain America, Iron Man, Firebird, Quicksilver, and Vision in XX 11.

The next day, the Khan invasion continues, and other team members arrive at Avengers Mansion -- She-Hulk, Black Knight, Falcon, and, yes, Hawkeye, up from DC. The team heads out to Madripoor in two quinjets and end up in the mop-up operation. We see Cap and Iron Man here with the Thing in XX 18, assisting the badly injured Storm, Gambit, and Rogue. We can only assume that the other Avengers and FF are BTS.

Their job in Madripoor done, the Avengers head back to New York in the two quinjets. One carries Thor, Firebird, Quicksilver, Yellowjacket, Wasp, Falcon, She-Hulk, and Wonder Man. The other carries Vision, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Captain America, and the Black Knight. It is this second quinjet we see en route to Avengers Mansion at the beginning of M/DS 2/2. That night, Loki plays pranks on the Assemblers and we see the results -- including a red Scarlet Witch and a bald Thor -- the next morning in M/DS 2/2.


> > Placing XX 10-18 right after M/DS 2/2 on the current calendar would mean that Nightcrawler appears in XX 18 during the "week" between UX 408 and 409. Beast and Jean would be in XX 18 between END and X 127. Does this jibe with your X-calendar, Jeph?

> I hate breaking up a story arc if it can be avoided (UX #408-409)  but quite a lot of time does pass in those issues. If there's no way of shuffling UX #408-409 up or down to allow XX #18 to occur before one or after the other, I suppose we'll have to let it go.

Not a problem, actually. Nightcrawler can appear in XX 18 the day before UX 408 begins. 

So, here's how it all can shake out:

Wednesday, July 10
AVENGERS v3 #61
UNCANNY X-MEN #406 (22-23)
THUNDERBOLTS #67 (5p3-16)
UNCANNY X-MEN #407 (1-15)

Thursday, July 11
UNCANNY X-MEN #407 (16-23)
THUNDERBOLTS #67 (17-22)
THUNDERBOLTS #69
MARVEL UNIVERSE: THE END #1-6 
THUNDERBOLTS #70
THUNDERBOLTS #71
THUNDERBOLTS #72
THUNDERBOLTS #73 (1-22p2)
THUNDERBOLTS #74 (1-21p2)
THUNDERBOLTS #73 (22p3-22p4) ~ THUNDERBOLTS #74 (21p3-21p4)
THUNDERBOLTS #74 (22)
THUNDERBOLTS #75 (1-23)

Friday, July 12
THUNDERBOLTS #75 (24-37)
X-TREME X-MEN #10
X-TREME X-MEN #11
X-TREME X-MEN #12
X-TREME X-MEN #13

Saturday, July 13
X-TREME X-MEN #14
X-TREME X-MEN #15
X-TREME X-MEN #16
X-TREME X-MEN #17
X-TREME X-MEN #18
MARVEL DOUBLE SHOT #2/2 (1-7)

Sunday, July 14
MARVEL DOUBLE SHOT #2/2 (8-11)
UNCANNY X-MEN #408 (1-18)

Monday, July 15
UNCANNY X-MEN #408 (19-23)


> > > I think I can place DEADLINE in October 

> A thought, here  where do UX #410-413 occur in relation to this "October" placement? If memory serves, the Juggernaut appears in Deadline #1  and he's getting a tattoo of an "X" on his shoulder. He's able to GET a tattoo, even if  since we've never seen it again  it must have "healed" off of him, so this probably occurs after his power was recently halved. But we don't yet know when that was  although this week's issue of UX (#435) promises to shed some light on it. (It's certainly prior to UX #410, and probably after Deadpool v3 #61.)

> I can't figure out if he's getting the "X" tattoo as some kind of ironic, self-indulgent thing, knowing that it'll heal right off (X-Men Forever told us that Cain has secretly always wanted to be a mutant)  or if this is after UX #413, and Cain's seriously thinking of trying to join the X-Men.

With the new October placement of Deadline, Juggernaut would appear in Deadline #1 AFTER UX 413 (late September). So, does this add to the argument for moving Deadline?


> (By the way, I've noted this before, but  UX #410-413 occur over TWO days, not one. It's afternoon and evening (after school) when Prof. X offers his school to Sammy Pare, sunrise when Cyclops gets Havok from the convalescent home, and daytime again when the wounded X-Men return from Cassidy Keep.)

I'll adjust the calendar accordingly. Thanks.


> 
> > > Sweet Charity

> > Damn! I thought of a problem immediately -- Thor (once again!) He appears as Lord Thor in the END, which is supposed to occur before TB 75 (for the sake of Atlas), which is supposed to occur before Sweet Charity (for Hawkeye's sake). Thor also appears in Sweet Charity, but with his classic pre-Lord duds, suggesting placement *before* END. Argh! That darn Thor!

> > This forces us to either: have Hawkeye appear here while on the lam (also not likely) or have the Dallas/Erik incarnation of Atlas resurface after Dallas and Erik were separated in TB 74. Could Erik and Dallas have discovered that they could re-merge?

> I doubt they can  if I remember right, they spent all their excess ionic energy sealing the rift in TB #74  TB #75 showed that Erik had regained his size-chainging powers, and Dallas had gained enhanced reflexes, but neither had any energy-based powers left.

> I may have a solution here. If we need to push "Sweet Charity" backwards to allow Thor to appear pre-Lord of Asgard, why don't we just keep pushing? How far back do we have to go to find a spot for Hawkeye to participate?

> Let's see here  the issue was a 9/11 fundraiser  so we can't go back before TB #49. Hawkeye helps clean up the WTC site in-between TB #49-50  gets arrested in TB #50, is let out briefly to help the Avengers fight Ultron in "Avengers: the Ultron Imperative"  has a jailbreak in TB #57, is on the lam for the entirety of Graviton's attack AND the Kang War, and basically continues to be on the lam until TB #74. Which is too late, since going by THE END #5, Thor is already Lord Thor by TB #74.

> I see two spots to place "Sweet Charity"  one is just after 9/11 and prior to TB #50  although it probably involves widening the gap between TB #49-50, and means ignoring some temporal clues (I believe the issue states that "two days" separate the issues). The other spot is sometime close to "the Ultron Imperative"  using the logic that, heck, if they're going to briefly let him out of jail to fight someone because the Avengers ask nicely, why won't they briefly let him out again, to help raise money for a horrible tragedy, if the Avengers asked nicely a second time? Hell, Hawkeye's only in prison as a plant anyway.

> It's possible that both of Hawkeye's "releases" occurred in the space between his initial arrest and his sentencing to a specific prison  while he was being held awaiting his hearing, or whatever, he was released on his own recognizance for official Avengers business. It's possible that "Sweet Charity" could occur the day after "the Ulron Imperative", and Hawkeye only had ONE period out of jail. (Wait, is Hank Pym Goliath or Yellowjacket in "Sweet Charity"?)

> Just a thought  Hawkeye being released for a special event is more plausible than Hawkeye participating in a special event while on the lam  and given that we KNOW Hawkeye was released ONCE, we know that it IS possible for him to be released.

> I don't have the issue, so there may be big placement hints that I'm totally overlooking  but how does something like that sound?

This will require some further analysis. Also, we need to account for JLA/Avengers, which features Yellowjacket, classic Thor, and Hawkeye. Looks like we'll need to find an excuse for Clint to appear here, too. More later...

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: That darn Sweet Charity!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 14, 2003 at 17:24:49:
In Reply to: That darn Sweet Charity! 
posted by Jeph! on December 14, 2003 at 00:43:28:

> > > Sweet Charity

> > Damn! I thought of a problem immediately -- Thor (once again!) He appears as Lord Thor in the END, which is supposed to occur before TB 75 (for the sake of Atlas), which is supposed to occur before Sweet Charity (for Hawkeye's sake). Thor also appears in Sweet Charity, but with his classic pre-Lord duds, suggesting placement *before* END. Argh! That darn Thor!

> > This forces us to either: have Hawkeye appear here while on the lam (also not likely) or have the Dallas/Erik incarnation of Atlas resurface after Dallas and Erik were separated in TB 74. Could Erik and Dallas have discovered that they could re-merge?

> I doubt they can  if I remember right, they spent all their excess ionic energy sealing the rift in TB #74  TB #75 showed that Erik had regained his size-chainging powers, and Dallas had gained enhanced reflexes, but neither had any energy-based powers left.

> I may have a solution here. If we need to push "Sweet Charity" backwards to allow Thor to appear pre-Lord of Asgard, why don't we just keep pushing? How far back do we have to go to find a spot for Hawkeye to participate?

> Let's see here  the issue was a 9/11 fundraiser  so we can't go back before TB #49. Hawkeye helps clean up the WTC site in-between TB #49-50  gets arrested in TB #50, is let out briefly to help the Avengers fight Ultron in "Avengers: the Ultron Imperative"  has a jailbreak in TB #57, is on the lam for the entirety of Graviton's attack AND the Kang War, and basically continues to be on the lam until TB #74. Which is too late, since going by THE END #5, Thor is already Lord Thor by TB #74.

> I see two spots to place "Sweet Charity"  one is just after 9/11 and prior to TB #50  although it probably involves widening the gap between TB #49-50, and means ignoring some temporal clues (I believe the issue states that "two days" separate the issues). The other spot is sometime close to "the Ultron Imperative"  using the logic that, heck, if they're going to briefly let him out of jail to fight someone because the Avengers ask nicely, why won't they briefly let him out again, to help raise money for a horrible tragedy, if the Avengers asked nicely a second time? Hell, Hawkeye's only in prison as a plant anyway.

> It's possible that both of Hawkeye's "releases" occurred in the space between his initial arrest and his sentencing to a specific prison  while he was being held awaiting his hearing, or whatever, he was released on his own recognizance for official Avengers business. It's possible that "Sweet Charity" could occur the day after "the Ulron Imperative", and Hawkeye only had ONE period out of jail. (Wait, is Hank Pym Goliath or Yellowjacket in "Sweet Charity"?)

> Just a thought  Hawkeye being released for a special event is more plausible than Hawkeye participating in a special event while on the lam  and given that we KNOW Hawkeye was released ONCE, we know that it IS possible for him to be released.

> I don't have the issue, so there may be big placement hints that I'm totally overlooking  but how does something like that sound?

If Hawkeye was released from prison to be auctioned, then he'd have to be released for the follow-up date with the high bidder as well.

I think our best bet at placing Hawkeye in both Sweet Charity and JLA/Avengers before TB 75 is during the "three weeks" between TB 63 and 65. In TB 63, he is released from his manacles and is given his Hawkeye costume back. This occurs in Vancouver. Although he notes that he and Plantman are still technically "on the lam," it's clear to all that he has SHIELD sanction to pursue the Justin Hammer investigation. Three weeks later, he's in Paris with Plantman and Songbird in TB 65. What was he doing in the interim? He may have decided to collect some intel from the Avengers, coincidentally just as Cap was putting out a call for reservists in JLA/Avengers #1. After JLA/A, he collected his information and was roped into attending the charity auction, to which Avengers had committed. Seeing that Hawkeye personally dealt with 9-11, how could he say no? Of course, he couldn't commit to schedule his date with the high bidder until after his Thunderbolts assignment was done. He finally may have had the date shortly after M/DS 2/2.

Does this sound plausible? If so, I'll see how it can be worked in, calendar-wise.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Sweet Charity, JLA/Avengers & Thunderbolts
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 15, 2003 at 07:00:55:
In Reply to: Re: That darn Sweet Charity! 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 14, 2003 at 17:24:49:

> I think our best bet at placing Hawkeye in both Sweet Charity and JLA/Avengers before TB 75 is during the "three weeks" between TB 63 and 65. In TB 63, he is released from his manacles and is given his Hawkeye costume back. This occurs in Vancouver. Although he notes that he and Plantman are still technically "on the lam," it's clear to all that he has SHIELD sanction to pursue the Justin Hammer investigation. Three weeks later, he's in Paris with Plantman and Songbird in TB 65. What was he doing in the interim? He may have decided to collect some intel from the Avengers, coincidentally just as Cap was putting out a call for reservists in JLA/Avengers #1. After JLA/A, he collected his information and was roped into attending the charity auction, to which Avengers had committed. Seeing that Hawkeye personally dealt with 9-11, how could he say no? Of course, he couldn't commit to schedule his date with the high bidder until after his Thunderbolts assignment was done. He finally may have had the date shortly after M/DS 2/2.

> Does this sound plausible? If so, I'll see how it can be worked in, calendar-wise.

Well, I checked the calendar and we have that little thing called the Kang War to deal with. Yellowjacket returns just before the Kang War Proper, so JLA/Avengers (featuring YJ) must occur after Kang's defeat. Thor has his classic costume in JLA/Avengers, so that story must occur between A3 55 and T2 32 (22). A new theory about Hawkeye's chronology can take this into account:

In TB 63, Hawkeye is released from his manacles and is given his costume back. This occurs in Vancouver. Although he notes that he and Plantman are still technically "on the lam," it's clear to all that he has SHIELD sanction to pursue the Justin Hammer investigation. "Three weeks" later, he's in Paris with Plantman and Songbird in TB 65. What was he doing in the interim? He may have decided to collect some intel from the Avengers, at which time Cap gave him an emergency pager used by Avengers reservists.

After forming a new Thunderbolts team in Paris to deal with the Justin Hammer assignment, Hawkeye is faced with molding a team out of the group of villains. The Kang War Proper erupts and the group trains by fighting Kang's forces in Europe.

Sometime after the end of the Kang War, Cap puts a call out for reservists in JLA/Avengers #1 and Hawkeye answers the call, leaving the Thunderbolts training under Songbird in Europe.
After JLA/A, Hawkeye gets roped into attending the charity auction in Sweet Charity, to which Avengers had committed. Seeing that Hawkeye personally dealt with 9-11, how could he say no? Of course, he couldn't commit to schedule his date with the high bidder until after his Thunderbolts assignment was done.

After his appearance in Sweet Charity, Hawkeye returns to Europe and readies his team to go to Symkaria.

Clues in subsequent issues of TB hint that Hawkeye spent quite some time with his new team. My estimatations put three months between the team's formation in Paris in TB 65 and its mission to Symkaria in TB 67, including the month-long Kang War.

The Symkaria mission leads into the final Thunderbolts adventure, interrupted by the END. Then Hawkeye leaves the 'Bolts and is deposited in Washington in TB 75. Hearing about the Khan situation, he shows up to help the Avengers BTS in Madripoor in XX 18 and M/DS 2/2 shows him returning with the team from the mission.

After M/DS 2/2, Hawkeye arranges to have the date with his high bidder from Sweet Charity.

Whew. How does all that sequencing work?

--Paul

			*	*	*

U-Man Entry Additions; as Merrano, he appeared in Saga of the Sub-Mariner#2
Posted by John McDonagh on December 10, 2003 at 18:16:08:

I can undestand how this was missed.....in Saga of the Sub-Mariner#2, Roy Thomas retells some of the young Namor stories (Namor as a boy) that Bill Everett did in Sub-Mariner#36-42 .....with an important addition.

You remember how the U-Man's real name is Merrano, how his origin was that he was one of the young Namor's playmates who secretly hated Namor? 

Well, on pages 14-15, of Saga of the Sub-Mariner#2, a young Atlantean boy is shown playing with Namor. Byrrah, upon seeing him, says "There's Namor, *Merrano*--Let's--" then one page later, Merrano says "You don't like that fishbelly-pink freak any more than I do?" 

So the U-Man actually shows up as Merrano here! 

If I do a summary of the issue, would you be willing to add it to Merrano/U-Man's chronology? I'll try to look through the Sub-Mariner et al.'s chronology to see how it fits in.

			*	*	*

Re: U-Man Entry Additions; as Merrano, he appeared in Saga of the Sub-Mariner#2
Posted by Administrator on December 10, 2003 at 19:28:09:
In Reply to: U-Man Entry Additions; as Merrano, he appeared in Saga of the Sub-Mariner#2 
posted by John McDonagh on December 10, 2003 at 18:16:08:

> If I do a summary of the issue, would you be willing to add it to Merrano/U-Man's chronology? 

Yes.

			*	*	*

Various Wendigos in chronological order of appearance
Posted by jim on December 10, 2003 at 23:52:27:

WENDIGO I/PAUL CARTIER
Incredible Hulk(v.2)#162(1973)

WENDIGO II/GEORGES BAPTISTE
(as Baptiste)Incredible Hulk(v.2)#162(1973)
(as Wendigo II)Incredible Hulk(v.2)#80(1974)

WENDIGO III/FRANCOIS LARTIGUE
Incredible Hulk(v.2)#272(1982)

WENDIGO IV
Amazing Spider-Man(v.1)#277(1986)

WENDIGO V
Spider-Man #8(1991)

WENDIGO VI
Blaze(v.2)#4(fb)(1994) 

WENDIGO VII/MICHAEL FLEET
Marvel Fanfare(v.2)#2(1996)

WENDIGO VIII/ANDRE
Wolverine(v.2)#129(1998)

WENDIGO IX/LORENZO "LARRY"
Captain Marvel(v.5)#1(2000)

WENDIGO X/MAUVAIS
(as Mauvais)Wolverine(v.2)#164(2001)
(as Wendigo X)Wolverine(v.2)#701(2002) 

			*	*	*

Re: Various Wendigos in chronological order of appearance
Posted by Jeph! on December 11, 2003 at 00:21:44:
In Reply to: Various Wendigos in chronological order of appearance 
posted by jim on December 10, 2003 at 23:52:27:

Man, you sure love the Wendigo some good. You seem to be listing only the first appearances of each here, correct?

> WENDIGO IV
> Amazing Spider-Man(v.1)#277(1986)

> WENDIGO V
> Spider-Man #8(1991)

> WENDIGO VI
> Blaze(v.2)#4(fb)(1994)

How do you know that these are separate entities from the previous Wendigos? Or even separate from each other? Can you cite proof?

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Various Wendigos in chronological order of appearance
Posted by ShadZ on December 11, 2003 at 13:01:48:
In Reply to: Re: Various Wendigos in chronological order of appearance 
posted by Jeph! on December 11, 2003 at 00:21:44:

> How do you know that these are separate entities from the previous Wendigos? Or even separate from each other? Can you cite proof?

Well, I'm not jim, but I can say the Wendigo in Amazing Spider-Man(v.1)#277 was not a white furry creature from Canada, but a mystical storm being from Canada. It apparently had nothing to do with any of the other Wendigos.

And the Wendigo VI from Blaze(v.2)#4 WAS a white furry creature, but wasn't a killing monster. In fact, it rescued Blaze's children and kept them safe from Ba'al throughout the story. While it could, with a good explanation, be Wendigo V with a masssive attitude change, no such explanation was given.

ShadZ 

			*	*	*

Re: Various Wendigos in chronological order of appearance
Posted by Jeph! on December 11, 2003 at 14:08:48:
In Reply to: Re: Various Wendigos in chronological order of appearance 
posted by ShadZ on December 11, 2003 at 13:01:48:

> > > WENDIGO IV
> > > Amazing Spider-Man(v.1)#277(1986)

> > > WENDIGO V
> > > Spider-Man #8(1991)

> > > WENDIGO VI
> > > Blaze(v.2)#4(fb)(1994)

> > How do you know that these are separate entities from the previous Wendigos? Or even separate from each other? Can you cite proof?

> the Wendigo in Amazing Spider-Man(v.1)#277 was not a white furry creature from Canada, but a mystical storm being from Canada.

Okey doke.

> And the Wendigo VI from Blaze(v.2)#4 WAS a white furry creature, but wasn't a killing monster. In fact, it rescued Blaze's children and kept them safe from Ba'al throughout the story. While it could, with a good explanation, be Wendigo V with a masssive attitude change, no such explanation was given.

Well, even if it was a different person under the same Wendigo spell, their behavior still wouldn't change -- they'd still be a killing monster. So making the Wendigo from Blaze #4 into a new character doesn't solve anything. I'd be inclined to say that it was the same Wendigo from Spider-Man #8-11, under some kind of shamanistic spell. There's certainly plenty of spells thrown around in that story -- given the nature of how Wendigos are created, it's easier to say that a spell affected the current Wendigo than it is to assume that we're seeing an all-new character...

That said -- how do we know that the Wendigo from Spider-Man #8-11 is different from Wendigo III?

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Handbook states that they are different beings 
Posted by John McDonagh on December 11, 2003 at 18:18:22:
In Reply to: Re: Various Wendigos in chronological order of appearance 
posted by Jeph! on December 11, 2003 at 14:08:48:

The Handbook (Master Edition) says that they are seprate beings. 

			*	*	*

Re: Handbook states that they are different beings 
Posted by Jeph! on December 11, 2003 at 21:59:29:
In Reply to: Handbook states that they are different beings 
posted by John McDonagh on December 11, 2003 at 18:18:22:

Wait ... which ones? Are you answering my final question -- why presume that the Wendigo from Spider-Man #8-11 is different from Wendigo III?

Or are you telling me that the one from Blaze #4-5 was different from the one from Spider-Man #8-11?

Or both?

Also, does the Handbook cite any reasons or evidence for its claim that the various Wendigii are different?

-Jeph!
heh. "Wendigii". 

			*	*	*

Re: Various Wendigos in chronological order of appearance
Posted by Stefan A. on December 13, 2003 at 01:07:51:
In Reply to: Various Wendigos in chronological order of appearance 
posted by jim on December 10, 2003 at 23:52:27:

Just some comments about The Wendigos that might help in this Wendigo mystery.

The Wendigo from Spider-Man #8-11 was a nice Wendigo who had never eaten anyone (according to Wolverine) and that Wendigo was calm, helpful and curious. Very childlike.

The Wendigo from Hulk #272 was quite horrible and scary being to read about. Was cured by Shaman.

The Georges Baptiste Wendigo was also cured by Shaman in one early Uncanny X-Men. (somewhere around #140-150 if my memory serves me right) 

			*	*	*

Wendigii
Posted by Jeph! on December 18, 2003 at 13:02:11:
In Reply to: Re: Various Wendigos in chronological order of appearance 
posted by Stefan A. on December 13, 2003 at 01:07:51:

> The Wendigo from Spider-Man #8-11 was a nice Wendigo who had never eaten anyone (according to Wolverine)

"Never eaten anyone"? But that's the only way you BECOME a Wendigo -- by eating human flesh. What Wolvie meant was that the Wendigo wasn't responsible for the murders he and Spidey were investigating.

Nevertheless...

> The Wendigo from Hulk #272 was quite horrible and scary being to read about. Was cured by Shaman.

Well, we never saw the curing -- but it seems extremely likely that he WAS cured after the end of Hulk #273.

Meaning, unless Lartigue "re-offended" -- the Wendigo in Spider-Man #8-11 IS a different guy.

However, I'm still not certain that he's different from the one in Blaze #4-5...

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Weapon X and Deadpool Agent of Weapon X
Posted by Ethain on December 11, 2003 at 13:51:31:

Just two very simple questions:
Where does the Dead Pool - Agent of Weapon X four numbers fit in Weapon X chronology?
Apart of these two (and possibly Soldier X 12), which other material should I read to have a complete Weapon X bibliography? 

			*	*	*

Re: Weapon X and Deadpool Agent of Weapon X
Posted by Jeph! on December 11, 2003 at 14:13:28:
In Reply to: Weapon X and Deadpool Agent of Weapon X 
posted by Ethain on December 11, 2003 at 13:51:31:

> Just two very simple questions:
> Where does the Dead Pool - Agent of Weapon X four numbers fit in Weapon X chronology?

After Wolverine #169 and before Wolverine #173. After "Weapon X: the Draft - Agent Zero" but before the 1/2 issue and the other one-shots.

> Apart of these two (and possibly Soldier X 12), which other material should I read to have a complete Weapon X bibliography?

Dunno -- what's your list so far?

I believe that Copycat was revealed as a Weapon X agent sometime prior to DP #57/AoWX #1, although I'm not completely sure. And the Weapon X crew shows up at DP's funeral in DP #61/Funeral for a Freak #1.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Weapon X and Deadpool Agent of Weapon X
Posted by Jeph! on December 11, 2003 at 14:17:48:
In Reply to: Re: Weapon X and Deadpool Agent of Weapon X 
posted by Jeph! on December 11, 2003 at 14:13:28:

Also, Aurora's most recent mental health issues, and subsequent involvement with Weapon X, can be found in Wolverine #171-173. And Sabretooth's initial recruitment can be found in Wolverine #160. But you probably knew those already...

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Weapon X and Deadpool Agent of Weapon X
Posted by Ethain on December 11, 2003 at 16:02:57:
In Reply to: Re: Weapon X and Deadpool Agent of Weapon X 
posted by Jeph! on December 11, 2003 at 14:17:48:

> > > which other material should I read to have a complete Weapon X bibliography?

> > Dunno -- what's your list so far?

My list, by now, just involves the Weapon X series, the four AoWX, and SX 12. I'll add the issues of Wolverine and DP you told me.

Anyway, could you make a chronological list of the preWX2 issues, please? I don't know even the order of the issues of The Draft, so all it's quite confusing for me...

			*	*	*

Weapon X chronology
Posted by Jeph! on December 14, 2003 at 01:48:27:
In Reply to: Re: Weapon X and Deadpool Agent of Weapon X 
posted by Ethain on December 11, 2003 at 16:02:57:

> which other material should I read to have a complete Weapon X bibliography? ... My list, by now, just involves the Weapon X series, the four AoWX, and SX 12. I'll add the issues of Wolverine and DP you told me.

Oh wow. In that case, you also want to read Wolverine #162-166 and #173-176 -- they're the introduction of the entire Weapon X concept.

By the way, Wolverine #162-166 and Deadpool #57-60/Agent of Weapon X #1-4 are collected in a TPB, called "Wolverine / Deadpool: Weapon X".

> Anyway, could you make a chronological list of the preWX2 issues, please? I don't know even the order of the issues of The Draft, so all it's quite confusing for me...

Sure -- here you go:

Wolverine #160 - Sabretooth is recruited by the Director.

Wolverine #162-166 - the Weapon X organization is introduced.

Weapon X: the Draft - Agent Zero - a certain someone from Logan's past is recruited by Weapon X...

Deadpool #57-60 (aka DP: Agent of Weapon X #1-4) - Deadpool is unsuccessfully recruited by Weapon X.

Wolverine #171-172 - during a fight with the Wendigo and Mauvais, Aurora is mentally unbalanced even further and sent to a sanitarium by Alpha Flight.

Wolverine #173-176 - Aurora is detoured to Weapon X's "private facility", and Sabretooth -- who has escaped Weapon X's control -- attacks Wolvie's loved ones.

Weapon X #1/2 -- the Director decides to "draft" mutant operatives, leading into the other four "Draft" one-shots, in this order:

Weapon X: the Draft - Sauron

Weapon X: the Draft - Wild Child

Weapon X: the Draft - Marrow

Weapon X: the Draft - Kane

(That's NOT the order they were presented in the "Weapon X vol. 1: the Draft" TPB, by the way. Beware!)

And, finally, Weapon X #1-onwards...


Happy reading! Enjoy...

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Weapon X chronology
Posted by Ethain on December 15, 2003 at 10:18:44:
In Reply to: Weapon X chronology 
posted by Jeph! on December 14, 2003 at 01:48:27:

At last I am able to put some chronological order in my Weapon X collection section. Thank you very much for your very kind help, Jeph! 

			*	*	*

More help needed
Posted by Ethain on December 18, 2003 at 17:52:19:
In Reply to: Re: Weapon X chronology 
posted by Ethain on December 15, 2003 at 10:18:44:

Well, I'm completing the Weapon X series at last (only Weapon X 1/2 and I'll have it all). But I have a doubt still.

- I can see why did you put the WX-Agent Zero where you did (mostly because Vanessa, killed in AoWX), but what did you see in the other Draft numbers to choose this order? I've tried to take note of every character appearing in each one, but it doesn't work. Which is the key, then? 

			*	*	*

Re: More help needed
Posted by Jeph! on December 18, 2003 at 20:29:36:
In Reply to: More help needed 
posted by Ethain on December 18, 2003 at 17:52:19:

Here's a re-post of my chronology write-up for the five "Draft" one-shots, Ethain. Hope it helps.

-Jeph!

----
Weapon X one-shot chronology notes
Posted by Jeph! on February 07, 2003 at 16:11:29

Five one-shots, under the theme "Weapon X: the Draft" -- although the words "the Draft" are never seen on any book covers -- and the Wizard special edition, Weapon X #1/2.

(Technically, by the way, the regular "WX" series is volume 2 -- volume one was an "Age of Apocalypse" Wolverine series.)

----

First up, in chronological order, is Weapon X: Zero. This issue was published LAST, but it takes place FIRST.

The opening sequence, pages 1-9, shows the (re)creation of Agent Zero, remade from a wounded man brought in by Sabretooth, who is working for Weapon X. Sabes' adamantium bonding procedure was finished in W2 #164, and his first mission for Weapon X was in W2 #165.

Fan speculation believes that the wounded man who became Agent Zero was actually Maverick, who sustained near-fatal injuries in W2 #166. I happen to agree -- and this actually works out quite nicely in terms of placing the first few pages of WX:ZERO, as it's the first time Sabretooth actually has time to recruit.

Page 10 features Copycat as a member of Weapon X -- she left the team some time prior to DP3 #57. (I tend to believe that Copycat left the team just prior to DP3 #56, based on the finality with which she "moves in with" Deadpool in that issue -- but there's really no proof either way.) This page also features Wild Child, who looks happy, indicating that this is before he lost his power of speech. (More in a bit.)

Pages 11-13 take place over "the next few weeks", as Agent Zero does some black ops work for Weapon X.

Pages 14-22 take place some time after those next few weeks, when Zero is ordered to make an attempt on Wolverine's life. He fails, and is punished by the Director. The Director sits in his office watching multiple monitors, on which we see Agent Zero, Spider-Man, Captain America, Four Freedoms Plaza, and what are probably an Avengers Quinjet and the Hulk. The Agent Zero feed is live, but the shot of Four Freedoms Plaza is clearly taped (the Plaza hasn't existed on earth since FF3 #15 or so). In WX 0.5 we see this same set-up, and several of the Director's monitor feeds are clearly taped there too -- I wouldn't worry about giving Spidey or Cap "appearances" for this issue.

The Director has a folder on his desk in which we see photos of Wolvie and Deadpool. We see this EXACT SAME folder on his desk, with the exact same photos, in WX #0.5 -- implying, possibly, that this sequence takes place around the same time period as WX #0.5. This is probably the only clue we have to placing this sequence, other than the fact that Wolvie has two good eyes here, placing it after W2 #169.

----

Next up, Weapon X #1/2 -- or, rather, WX #0.5. The issue opens with the Director going through the folder we saw in WX:ZERO, musing about the men who have given him trouble -- Wolvie, Deadpool ... and Sabretooth, who we see is the third photo in the folder. The Director ruminates on past events up through W2 #176 -- which places WX #0.5 after W2 #176, and likely places WX:ZERO pp.14-22 after W2 #176 as well.

We see several scenes on the Directors' screens on page 12 -- but nothing all that "current" to indicate what other events might be taking place "now". We see Iron Man in his Grell armor, indicating that this issue takes place after the wrap of the Kang War.

There's also a scene, by the way, of Sauron attacking and draining a young couple. A full moon is shown in this sequence, although it's possibly a flashback.

The Director decides that it's time for a draft of new operatives in this issue (p.12), which places it before the rest of the "Draft" one-shots.

WX #0.5 also features the Director recruiting Washout from an X-Force open tryout. I don't have the issue, but I believe that this is the same tryout seen in X-Force #129 ... I believe that Washout appears in both issues, and the Orphan appears in WX #0.5, announcing the tryouts on TV. This places WX #0.5 pp.1-12 and p.13 panel 1 just *before* XFO #129, and WX #0.5 p.13 panels 2-5 and pp.14-16 just *after* XFO #129.

Washout's operations and new control of his powers probably don't happen in one day -- and the full moon shown in the Sauron scene doesn't jibe with the full moon shown in most of the "Draft" one-shots -- they can't all take place the same night (or even two or three nights apart, as the moon can APPEAR full for up to three nights in a row) -- so either Sauron's scene is a flashback, or the whole of WX #0.5 takes place a month before the "Draft" one-shots, or the final sequence with Washout mastering his powers (pp.15-16) takes place AFTER all the rest of the "Draft" one-shots. I'm not sure what option I'd pick -- for now I'll go with option A, "the Sauron scene is a flashback".

----

"Weapon X: Sauron" is next -- pp.1-3 features the Director giving Weapon X their assignments, meaning it falls before the start of the remaining three one-shots. Sauron is assigned to recruit Emma Frost -- and she has diamond skin and is referred to as "the X-Men's Emma Frost", placing it after X #116.

pp.4-7 feature Sauron dive-bombing Emma Frost's New York penthouse. This takes place in the daytime, likely the same day Sauron is given his assignment. (All operatives are "on a timetable"). Emma hijacks his brain and sends him to recruit someone else instead -- his "plan B" mutant.

pp.8-19 take place in Australia -- Emma made Sauron fly there under his own power. It's daytime there, but we see that it's nighttime at the Weapon X compound -- a full moon is shown.

pp.20-22 take place back at the compound -- unclear if it's day or night, but if it took Sauron 12 hours or so (day to night in the USA) to fly to Australia, it probably took him the same amount of time to fly back -- so this is probably the next day. Kane is shown here, uninjured (more in a bit).

----

Next up are WX:WILD CHILD and WX:MARROW. Both issues take place at night, during a full moon -- one would assume that they're both the same night as WX:SAURON pp.8-19, and the same day they're all given their orders.

A few details are necessary to clarify here: let's start with WX:WILD CHILD.

This issue features a flashback to Wild Child losing his voice -- Sabretooth slashed his throat during a mission to recruit Sunfire, "six months ago" at his home in Kobe. The fact that Sabretooth is working for Weapon X in this flashback places it after W2 #164, and the fact that Wild Child appears happy and outgoing in WX:ZERO p.10 indicates that it takes place after that sequence as well (therefore after W2 #166 and WX:ZERO pp.1-10).

The fact that it's "six months ago" ... well, maybe that can lead to a more accurate placement on Paul B's calendar. Right now we know that "the Draft" takes place after the Kang War, after W2 #176, and after X #116 -- X #116 is probably the latest of those events. It also takes place after XFO #129, but as far as I know, X-Force has been a floating series, hard to pin down, so it's not much help -- in fact, placing WX #0.5 is probably what's going to allow us to place XFO #123-129.

How many "months" have elapsed between W2 #166 and X #116 on your calendar, Paul?

Also, WX:WILD CHILD contains an epilogue that takes place "three months later", and is BEFORE the first issue of the ongoing WX series. This implies a NINE month gap between W2 #166 and WX2 #1, with the events of the "Draft" happening at the six-month mark.

Let me make WX:WILD CHILD a little clearer:

pp.1-4 - nighttime with full moon.
pp.4-10 - flashback, "six months ago", one day in Kobe, Japan (with a quick follow-up back at the Weapon X base, probably the same day).
pp.10-20 - the same night as pp.1-4, and the next morning.
pp.21-23 - "Three months later", Aurora is finally cured and ready to serve in Weapon X (which we see her do in WX2 #1). One day, at suppertime.

----

Now, onto some details about WX:MARROW. Like the others, this issue takes place on a night with a full moon. However, Marrow isn't given her orders along with everyone else in WX:SAURON, she's given them just after coming out of radical surgery to fix her powers. However, we know that this surgery is on the same day as the orders are given to the others because the narration puts her out on the mission only "hours" after the surgery, and the full moon shown that night is, ASSUMEDLY, the same one as the others.

I say assumedly because, in this issue, Marrow wounds Agent Kane badly enough that he needs "minor rehab", and possibly badly enough to delay his own "Draft" assignment (more in a bit) -- and yet we see an uninjured Kane in WX:SAURON pp.20-22, which apparently occur the day AFTER the "night with full moon" where Sauron and Wild Child's missions occur.

This implies that Kane hadn't yet been injured that morning -- so I'm assuming that the full moon shown in WX:MARROW is the NEXT night's moon (as I mentioned before, the moon can appear full for up to three nights). That places Kane's injuries the night AFTER WX:SAURON pp.20-22.

pp.1-5 -- Marrow's surgery.
pp.6-10 -- "hours later", Marrow hits the New York nightclub scene.
pp.11-18 -- "hours later", Marrow fights and wounds Mesmero and Kane, who will recover with "minor rehab".
pp.19-20 -- Marrow completes her assignment, killing D'Gard. Full moon shown, but it must be the NEXT night's "full" moon.
pp.21-22 -- "hours later", Marrow returns to the WX compound.

----

Finally, we have WX:KANE. This issue takes place on a night with a CRESCENT moon. Since Kane, good soldier that he is, wouldn't dawdle in his mission (and indeed, agent Jackson says that he ran off half-cocked without completely reading the target's profile), then either the crescent moon is a topical reference, or this issue takes place AFTER Kane's injuries in WX:MARROW and his subsequent rehab.

We see Kane getting his assignment at the same time as the others in WX:SAURON pp.1-3 -- but he and Brent Jackson go on their mission in this issue as a group, and both WX:SAURON and WX:WILD CHILD show us that Jackson is hanging around the compound the night of the full moon -- implying that he and Kane AREN'T out on their mission that same night. So I'm inclined to go by the evidence of the moons, place this issue a few weeks after the rest, and claim that it takes place after Kane's rehab.

(The moon looks like a fat "C", by the way -- I have no idea which way the moon wanes, so I don't know if that means that it's been ONE or THREE weeks since the full moon.)

----

Anyway, that wraps it up -- here's a quick ordering of everything I mentioned above.

W2 #162-166 (Wolvie gets his eye ripped out in #164)
WX:ZERO pp.1-9 (the creation of Agent Zero, shortly after W2 #166 -- VERY shortly after if Zero turns out to be Maverick)
WX:ZERO p.10 (Wild Child appears happy and outgoing)
WX:WILD CHILD-FB (Wild Child loses his voice, "six months" before the rest of WX:WILD CHILD)
DP3 #56 (I theorize Copycat left Weapon X *for* Deadpool prior to this issue).
W2 #167-169 (Wolvie appears here with one eye)
DP3 #57-60 (Wolvie appears in DP3 #60 with two eyes)

WX:ZERO pp.11-13 (over the course of a few weeks)
W2 @'01 (a lead-in to W2 #170)
W2 #170-176 (I've placed this arc just before the Kang War)

A3 #45-54 (the Kang War -- Iron Man begins using the Grell armor)
WX #0.5-FB (Sauron attacks a couple, full moon shown)
X #116 (Emma Frost gains diamond skin and affiliates herself with the X-Men)

WX:ZERO pp.14-22 (Agent Zero attempts to kill Wolvie -- the folder on the Director's desk links this time to that of WX #0.5)
WX #0.5 pp.1-13 (the Director decides to begin a draft, ruminates about events as recent as W2 #176. Iron Man seen in Grell armor, the Orphan announces X-Force tryouts)
XFO #129 (X-Force tryouts)
WX #0.5 pp.13-16 (the Director transforms Washout into a water-based life-form)
WX:SAURON pp.1-19 (the Director hands out the Draft assignments. Full moon)
WX:WILD CHILD pp.1-20 (full moon, "six months after" the FB in this issue.)
WX:SAURON pp.20-22 (apparently the morning of the next day  Sauron returns from Australia)
WX:MARROW (the night after the other Draft issues -- the moon is still full.)

WX:KANE ("C"-shaped crescent moon, one or three weeks after the other Draft issues)

WX:WILD CHILD pp.21-23 (three months after the rest of WX:WILD CHILD, Aurora is cured)
WX2 #1-5 (Aurora appears cured in #1)


-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: More help needed
Posted by Ethain on December 22, 2003 at 11:20:14:
In Reply to: Re: More help needed 
posted by Jeph! on December 18, 2003 at 20:29:36:

I couldn't do that in deep study you have done. It's amazing. I hope to learn to approaching that way in order to make my chronologies. After 32 years reading lots of Marvel comics I need to put some order in my mind (and bookselves, too).

Thank you again for your great help (and Merry Christmas!)

			*	*	*

VANISHER...VIPER...VOLLA
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 11, 2003 at 15:52:58:

new entries marked **


VANISHER

UX 38
**UX 39
TB 55-FB


VIPER/JORDON DIXON

CA 170
**CA 175 (31p2)
CA 180


VOLLA

**T 200
T 277-FB
T2 1


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#140

			*	*	*

Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS
THOR: VIKINGS #1-5 (September 2003 to January 2004) by Garth Ennis and Glenn Fabry

GENERAL COMMENTS
There's no obvious reason to think that this story is out of continuity - Thor acts in character throughout, the Avengers put in a cameo, and we're told that this sort of thing happens fairly regularly in New York. (Which, if you live in the Marvel Universe, is true.) New York takes a particularly bad hammering in this story, with mountains of corpses in the street - but heck, if Washington can bounce back from the complete annihilation of its population, this is nothing by comparison.

Dr Strange's dialogue is somewhat uncharacteristic throughout - sarcastic and mildly condescending - but his actual behaviour is entirely in character.

Strange, who effectively co-stars in the whole series, is wearing his normal costume, with one exception - the Cloak of Levitation is missing. In its place, throughout the story, Strange wears what appears to be a red velvet knee-length gown. Thor wears his usual Marvel costume - his standard appearance over the last few decades.

The trees are in leaf, for what it's worth.

In their one-panel cameo, the Avengers are Captain America, Iron Man, Hawkeye, the Scarlet Witch and the Vision. Others might be off-panel. The Scarlet Witch is wearing her Kirby-era costume (red, but with a headdress that continues under the chin). Iron Man is wearing what seems to be a 1970s suit of armour. 

SYNOPSIS:
* THOR: VIKINGS #1, pages 1 to 11. The West Coast of Norway, "1003 AD." Harald Jaekelssen and his vikings slaughter a village and then set sail for the new world. The village magician, who survived the massacre, casts a curse on them, so that they will sail for a thousand years before reaching their destination. The vikings kill him with a longbow as he finishes the spell. The vikings continue to sail west for a thousand years. As they sail, they are transformed into hugely powerful undead warriors.

Characters: Harald Jaekelssen and his vikings

* THOR: VIKINGS #1, pages 12 to 21. Manhattan, "2003". Day 1. With the thousand years finished, the vikings finally land in Manhattan - and immediately start slaughtering everyone in sight. Thor goes to fight them.

Characters: Thor, Harald Jaekelssen, undead vikings

* THOR: VIKINGS #2. Still Day 1. Direct continuation. Thor fights Jaekelssen, who easily outpowers him and dumps him in the harbour. Meanwhile, the vikings capture the city, fight off the military, and continue to pursue their hobby of killing everyone in sight. As dusk falls, Thor pulls himself out of the water and is met by Dr Strange.

Characters: Thor, Dr Strange, Harald Jaekelssen, undead vikings.

* THOR: VIKINGS #3. Still Day 1. The Mayor speaks to the press - the Avengers are on their way, he says. Nothing to worry about, it's just another invasion. ("This time tomorrow, you'll be wondering what all the fuss was about.") Thor and Strange retreat to the Sanctum Sanctorum, where Strange delivers exposition and explains why he didn't get involved any earlier. ("I'm Dr Strange, not Dr Suicidal.") Strange establishes that the original spell was vastly overpowered as a result of the mage dying while he cast it. They need to get some warrior descendents of the original wise man to empower a counterspell. Using magic, Strange plucks from history the only three half-decent warriors to be descended from the mage - Viking woman Big Sigrid, Crusader zealot Magnus, and Luftwaffe pilot Erik Lonnroth. Meanwhile, back in New York, the Avengers are retreating after taking a hammering from the vikings. 

Characters: Thor, Dr Strange, Harald Jaekelssen, undead viking, Big Sigrid, Magnus of the Danes, Erik Lonnroth, Captain America, Iron Man, the Scarlet Witch, the Vision, Hawkeye

[Dr Strange apologises for the state of the Sanctum, explaining that Wong normally takes care of it "but I've no idea where he's got to." This has nothing to do with the plot, so if Wong is actually in a story somewhere at this time, that would be ideal. There's also no explanation of why the Avengers weren't in New York to start with, but presumably they were on a mission somewhere. 

According to the narration in the closing panels, by the end of this issue the vikings have been in control for "one full day and one full night."]

* THOR: VIKINGS #4. Day 2. The US government has sent in the marines - and of course, they've been slaughtered. Meanwhile, in a limbo dimension, Strange and Thor brief the historical warriors. We establish that Lonnroth is not a Nazi, and is rather hoping to lose World War II. Strange casts a spell to empower Thor and the three historical warriors by drawing on their bloodline. The five return to the real world and arrive in New York as night is falling on the second day of viking occupation.

Characters: Thor, Dr Strange, Sigrid, Magnus, Erik, Harald Jaekelssen, undead vikings

* THOR: VIKINGS #5, pages 1 to 17. Day/night 2. Direct continuation - the night at the end of the second day. Now that they're magically empowered, Thor and the three historical warriors make rapid headway against the Vikings. Most of the vikings are destroyed. Thor punches Jaekelssen literally into orbit. 

Characters: Thor, Dr Strange, Sigrid, Magnus, Erik, Harald Jaekelssen, undead vikings.

* THOR: VIKINGS #5, pages 18 to 22 pages. Day 3. The Sanctum, the next day. New York is returning to normal (though Strange observes that "there'll be nightmares for years to come"). The three warriors are sent home. In an epilogue, we're told that they all died heroically in battle and that Thor made sure they were welcomed in Valhalla. Meanwhile, Jaekelssen continues to orbit the earth.

Characters: Thor, Strange, Sigrid, Magnus, Erik, Harald Jaekelssen 

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS
Posted by Kevin on December 11, 2003 at 17:36:10:
In Reply to: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS 
posted by Paul O'Brien on December 11, 2003 at 16:14:13:

Hey Paul O.: Great review! Short and to the point, as always. 

Figured I'd add a couple things:

> In their one-panel cameo, the Avengers are Captain America, Iron Man, Hawkeye, the Scarlet Witch and the Vision. Others might be off-panel. The Scarlet Witch is wearing her Kirby-era costume (red, but with a headdress that continues under the chin). Iron Man is wearing what seems to be a 1970s suit of armour. 

This would of course be proof that it happens years prior to today's current storylines, (and yes, this story MUST be before the "Thor: Lord of Asgard" story...but the problem is with the following:

> * THOR: VIKINGS #5, pages 1 to 17. Day/night 2. Direct continuation - the night at the end of the second day. Now that they're magically empowered, Thor and the three historical warriors make rapid headway against the Vikings. Most of the vikings are destroyed. Thor punches Jaekelssen literally into orbit. 

> Characters: Thor, Dr Strange, Sigrid, Magnus, Erik, Harald Jaekelssen, undead vikings.


It should also be noted that on page 1 of issue 5, we see the the exterior of the White House. We see the words baloons of the President speaking to an advisor within, (it reminds me of those Doonsbury cartoons). The Advisor says that they have the army is ready to drop a nuke on New York. The President asks, "Well what are they waiting for?" The Advisor replies something like, "There's some concern among the brass about the nuclear fallout. A radioactive cloud could spread from New York to here. Washington IS only 200 miles away" To which the President responds, "...It is?" 

A likely joke upon George W. Bush...so would that count as an appearance? I know the MCP lists each President's comic appearance, does this count as an appearance? A BTS appearance? Or do we not wish to presume which President is in the White House? 

I'm not good at judging Iron Man's armor or any of the Avengers' costumes, so I can't say for certain this isn't present day, (but again, it's definently before Thor taking over for Odin).


> * THOR: VIKINGS #5, pages 18 to 22 pages. Day 3. The Sanctum, the next day. New York is returning to normal (though Strange observes that "there'll be nightmares for years to come"). The three warriors are sent home. In an epilogue, we're told that they all died heroically in battle and that Thor made sure they were welcomed in Valhalla. Meanwhile, Jaekelssen continues to orbit the earth.

> Characters: Thor, Strange, Sigrid, Magnus, Erik, Harald Jaekelssen

Also, on pages 20 to 21, upon seeing Sigrid, Magnus, and Erik returned to their own times, we see them die heroic deaths, (as Paul O. detailed) but in the lower right hand corner of page 21, (pages 20 and 21 are a big splash page) we see all three of the Viking descendents standing alongside The Warriors 3, and possibly Balder, (I don't have my comic in front of me at this second, but the Warriors 3 are there). They're all standing around in a happy pose in the halls of Vallhala...which is the same as Asgard, right? But I figured I'd note their appearance.

Question: The stone which the village Elder used to cast the curse upon in issue 1. Dr. Strange talks about it's magical properties extensively in issue 3, saying it was the blood spilling from his dying body which fed the power of the curse, (which made the Vikings invincible at first)...is this one of those stones mentioned in Thunderbolts Issue #48, (where they reveal the origins of all the cosmic stones that have given powers to Marvel characters, stones like the one Meteorite of the Thunderbolts used, and the one that turned John Jameson into the Manwolf, for instance)? Or is this a stone seen in the Dr. Strange comics at some point prior? Or just a magical stone the writer came up with off the top of his head? 

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS
Posted by Administrator on December 11, 2003 at 17:43:46:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS 
posted by Kevin on December 11, 2003 at 17:36:10:

> 
> It should also be noted that on page 1 of issue 5, we see the the exterior of the White House. We see the words baloons of the President speaking to an advisor within, (it reminds me of those Doonsbury cartoons). The Advisor says that they have the army is ready to drop a nuke on New York. The President asks, "Well what are they waiting for?" The Advisor replies something like, "There's some concern among the brass about the nuclear fallout. A radioactive cloud could spread from New York to here. Washington IS only 200 miles away" To which the President responds, "...It is?" 

> A likely joke upon George W. Bush...so would that count as an appearance? I know the MCP lists each President's comic appearance, does this count as an appearance? A BTS appearance? Or do we not wish to presume which President is in the White House? 

No, we'd need a little more to go on in deciding who the President is.

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 11, 2003 at 22:02:55:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS 
posted by Administrator on December 11, 2003 at 17:43:46:

>> No, we'd need a little more to go on in deciding who the President is.

I agree. If the president is unseen, then his identity may be determined by where we place this story chronologically. I haven't perused this series, so does anyone have more clues? Aside from the "2003" reference, which is by nature topical (it may mean "contemporary with currently published stories" or simply may just mean, "modern times," as opposed to Viking days).

Is Iron Man indeed in "classic" armor? What do Wanda's and Clint's costumes look like? Any other little hints in dialog, setting, narration?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 12, 2003 at 04:46:30:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 11, 2003 at 22:02:55:

> I agree. If the president is unseen, then his identity may be determined by where we place this story chronologically. I haven't perused this series, so does anyone have more clues? 

The brief scene with the President is shot entirely as an exterior of the White House. It's obviously a joke at the expense of Dubya, but equally clearly it's been deliberately constructed to avoid identifying the President by name or image.

>>Aside from the "2003" reference, which is by nature topical (it may mean "contemporary with currently published stories" or simply may just mean, "modern times," as opposed to Viking days).

My reading is that Ennis regards the Marvel Universe as the eternal present. I think "2003" and "1003" were simply chosen as being a little more immediate than "Now" and "One thousand years ago", and should be read accordingly.

> Is Iron Man indeed in "classic" armor? 

Yes.

> What do Wanda's and Clint's costumes look like? 

Hawkeye is in his standard costume. Wanda is in the red outfit that served her well for years, except she's got that version of the headdress which extends around her whole face and continues under her chin.

>>Any other little hints in dialog, setting, narration?

Not really. The Avengers are only there to make a brief cameo and show just how powerful those vikings are. We're talking literally one panel. 

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS
Posted by Kevin on December 12, 2003 at 08:31:36:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS 
posted by Paul O'Brien on December 12, 2003 at 04:46:30:

> > I agree. If the president is unseen, then his identity may be determined by where we place this story chronologically. I haven't perused this series, so does anyone have more clues? 

> The brief scene with the President is shot entirely as an exterior of the White House. It's obviously a joke at the expense of Dubya, but equally clearly it's been deliberately constructed to avoid identifying the President by name or image.

True...and fair enough. Seems like most of the Presidents have had "he's a dummy" jokes made about them at one time or another, (I blame Saturday Night Live). :-) So without further evidence, it could just be "President X"

While I'm at it, I'll go ahead and answer my own questions posed earlier.

Dr. Strange refers the magic stone which the village elder uses to make the curse as a "Runestone". There's a design on the stone that looks like a bunch of snakes tangled together. Looks like something that would belong more in a Conan comic than in the superhero comics, such as:

I checked Thunderbolts #46, (yesterday, I misstyped it as #48) and there's no mention of anyone powered by a Runestone. There's a character named Bloodstone referenced I believe, but that's surely totally different.

Also, I double checked that splash page on pgs. 20-21 of Issue 5, and it is indeed Hogun, Fafnir, and Volstagg appearing alongside the 3 Viking descendants who Thor and Dr. Strange plucked from the timestream. No sign of Baldir as I originally thought. There's other "basic" Asgardians in the background, but the scene is just to show that the 3 different time period warriors did indeed end up in Valhalla (Asgard) upon dying...

And I will comment that Paul's right about the costumes of the Avengers in that one panel cameo. Iron Man is in the red/yellow armor with the humps over Tony's ears, (that always looked strange to me). Hawkeye's costume is exactly like the costume he's wearing in the current Avengers issues. In other words, it's his classic outfit. Scarlet Witch's costume, (as Paul noted) looks closest in style to her original red Kirby costume, (she had a green costume at first, didn't she?)

So this miniseries would possibly be set in the late 60's early 70's time frame, (real time, not Marvel time, as that of course is debateable). 

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on December 12, 2003 at 11:31:36:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS 
posted by Kevin on December 12, 2003 at 08:31:36:

> So this miniseries would possibly be set in the late 60's early 70's time frame, (real time, not Marvel time, as that of course is debateable).

If we're going by the costumes, I'd say the series has to be (roughly) placed somewhere around AVENGERS (vol. 1) #16-35.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch 

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 12, 2003 at 21:43:18:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS 
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on December 12, 2003 at 11:31:36:

> > So this miniseries would possibly be set in the late 60's early 70's time frame, (real time, not Marvel time, as that of course is debateable).

> If we're going by the costumes, I'd say the series has to be (roughly) placed somewhere around AVENGERS (vol. 1) #16-35.


One problem is that, while the Scarlet Witch ditched her wrap-around headgear in A 35, as you note, the Vision appears in Thor:Vikings, and he didn't debut until A 57.

This suggests that Wanda resumed wearing the wrap-around headgear, at least for a short time, sometime after A 57. (Does Wanda's costume feature a bare midriff?)

The presence of both Wanda and Vizh places this story after A 76, the issue in which they met. Now at that time, Clint Barton was not Hawkeye, but rather Goliath II. Clint would not resume the Hawkeye identity until A 98, but he wore the infamous skimpy outfit until A 109, the issue in which he quit the Avengers. He didn't return to the team until GSA 2, in a story that wrapped up in A 137. At that time, Cap was not on the team, but he did return in A 141, in a story that wrapped up in A 149. At this point, Hawkeye was not on the team, although he did show up for the next Avengers story, in A 145-146. Otherwise, he was not back on board until A 172, in a story that wrapped up in A 177.

I would say the earliest point in which the line-up of Avengers shown in Thor: Vikings would appear there would be between A 177 (after the Avengers recover from being killed by Korvac) and A @ 8 (perhaps May of Year Seven on the Avengers Calendar). This first window of opportunity extends to A 181 (September of that calendar year, now Avengers Year Eight), which leads to Hawkeye's being bounced from the team and Wanda's leaving on "the Yesterday Quest."

But if we're going with the theory that Wanda re-adopted the wrap-around headwear, Thor: Vikings could occur any number of times that Thor, Hawkeye, and Iron Man wore "classic" costumes between this point in time and the Lord Thor storyline. (And note that Hawkeye's purple costume has had a number of minor changes over the years and it's easy to lump them all together as "classic." Anything more specific on his outfit?)

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on December 13, 2003 at 05:56:52:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 12, 2003 at 21:43:18:

> > If we're going by the costumes, I'd say the series has to be (roughly) placed somewhere around AVENGERS (vol. 1) #16-35.

> 
> One problem is that, while the Scarlet Witch ditched her wrap-around headgear in A 35, as you note, the Vision appears in Thor:Vikings, and he didn't debut until A 57.

Good point. So much for that, then.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch 

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS
Posted by Jeph! on December 12, 2003 at 12:23:53:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS 
posted by Kevin on December 12, 2003 at 08:31:36:

> Scarlet Witch's costume, (as Paul noted) looks closest in style to her original red Kirby costume, (she had a green costume at first, didn't she?)

Not technically, no. In her first appearance in X-Men #4, her costume was red (hence her codename, the SCARLET Witch) -- but on the cover, her costume was miscolored green.

Quicksilver had the same problem -- inside the book, his costume was green -- but on the cover, it was blue...

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS
Posted by Peter Fabricius on December 12, 2003 at 16:09:37:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS 
posted by Kevin on December 12, 2003 at 08:31:36:


> Dr. Strange refers the magic stone which the village elder uses to make the curse as a "Runestone". There's a design on the stone that looks like a bunch of snakes tangled together. Looks like something that would belong more in a Conan comic than in the superhero comics, such as:

> Also, I double checked that splash page on pgs. 20-21 of Issue 5, and it is indeed Hogun, Fafnir, and Volstagg appearing alongside the 3 Viking descendants who Thor and Dr. Strange plucked from the timestream.


Just wanted to add that the design on the runestone is very much like real viking designs. The snakelike beasts with gripping hands are very common.

And I think you meant Fandral, not Fafnir. Al least he doen't look like Fafnir, who is a dragon after all.

			*	*	*

Re: Dr. Strange in THOR: VIKINGS
Posted by John Simons on December 13, 2003 at 01:59:15:
In Reply to: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS 
posted by Paul O'Brien on December 11, 2003 at 16:14:13:


> Dr Strange's dialogue is somewhat uncharacteristic throughout - sarcastic and mildly condescending - but his actual behaviour is entirely in character.

On the contrary, I found Dr. Strange's characterization so far off that I thought it might throw this mini into non-canon territory regardless of who is wearing what costume.


> Strange, who effectively co-stars in the whole series, is wearing his normal costume, with one exception - the Cloak of Levitation is missing. In its place, throughout the story, Strange wears what appears to be a red velvet knee-length gown. Thor wears his usual Marvel costume - his standard appearance over the last few decades.

> The trees are in leaf, for what it's worth.

> In their one-panel cameo, the Avengers are Captain America, Iron Man, Hawkeye, the Scarlet Witch and the Vision. Others might be off-panel. The Scarlet Witch is wearing her Kirby-era costume (red, but with a headdress that continues under the chin). Iron Man is wearing what seems to be a 1970s suit of armour. 

> SYNOPSIS:
> * THOR: VIKINGS #1, pages 1 to 11. The West Coast of Norway, "1003 AD." Harald Jaekelssen and his vikings slaughter a village and then set sail for the new world. The village magician, who survived the massacre, casts a curse on them, so that they will sail for a thousand years before reaching their destination. The vikings kill him with a longbow as he finishes the spell. The vikings continue to sail west for a thousand years. As they sail, they are transformed into hugely powerful undead warriors.

> Characters: Harald Jaekelssen and his vikings

> * THOR: VIKINGS #1, pages 12 to 21. Manhattan, "2003". Day 1. With the thousand years finished, the vikings finally land in Manhattan - and immediately start slaughtering everyone in sight. Thor goes to fight them.

> Characters: Thor, Harald Jaekelssen, undead vikings

> * THOR: VIKINGS #2. Still Day 1. Direct continuation. Thor fights Jaekelssen, who easily outpowers him and dumps him in the harbour. Meanwhile, the vikings capture the city, fight off the military, and continue to pursue their hobby of killing everyone in sight. As dusk falls, Thor pulls himself out of the water and is met by Dr Strange.

> Characters: Thor, Dr Strange, Harald Jaekelssen, undead vikings.

> * THOR: VIKINGS #3. Still Day 1. The Mayor speaks to the press - the Avengers are on their way, he says. Nothing to worry about, it's just another invasion. ("This time tomorrow, you'll be wondering what all the fuss was about.") Thor and Strange retreat to the Sanctum Sanctorum, where Strange delivers exposition and explains why he didn't get involved any earlier. ("I'm Dr Strange, not Dr Suicidal.") Strange establishes that the original spell was vastly overpowered as a result of the mage dying while he cast it. They need to get some warrior descendents of the original wise man to empower a counterspell. Using magic, Strange plucks from history the only three half-decent warriors to be descended from the mage - Viking woman Big Sigrid, Crusader zealot Magnus, and Luftwaffe pilot Erik Lonnroth. Meanwhile, back in New York, the Avengers are retreating after taking a hammering from the vikings. 

> Characters: Thor, Dr Strange, Harald Jaekelssen, undead viking, Big Sigrid, Magnus of the Danes, Erik Lonnroth, Captain America, Iron Man, the Scarlet Witch, the Vision, Hawkeye

> [Dr Strange apologises for the state of the Sanctum, explaining that Wong normally takes care of it "but I've no idea where he's got to." This has nothing to do with the plot, so if Wong is actually in a story somewhere at this time, that would be ideal. There's also no explanation of why the Avengers weren't in New York to start with, but presumably they were on a mission somewhere. 

> According to the narration in the closing panels, by the end of this issue the vikings have been in control for "one full day and one full night."]

> * THOR: VIKINGS #4. Day 2. The US government has sent in the marines - and of course, they've been slaughtered. Meanwhile, in a limbo dimension, Strange and Thor brief the historical warriors. We establish that Lonnroth is not a Nazi, and is rather hoping to lose World War II. Strange casts a spell to empower Thor and the three historical warriors by drawing on their bloodline. The five return to the real world and arrive in New York as night is falling on the second day of viking occupation.

> Characters: Thor, Dr Strange, Sigrid, Magnus, Erik, Harald Jaekelssen, undead vikings

> * THOR: VIKINGS #5, pages 1 to 17. Day/night 2. Direct continuation - the night at the end of the second day. Now that they're magically empowered, Thor and the three historical warriors make rapid headway against the Vikings. Most of the vikings are destroyed. Thor punches Jaekelssen literally into orbit. 

> Characters: Thor, Dr Strange, Sigrid, Magnus, Erik, Harald Jaekelssen, undead vikings.

> * THOR: VIKINGS #5, pages 18 to 22 pages. Day 3. The Sanctum, the next day. New York is returning to normal (though Strange observes that "there'll be nightmares for years to come"). The three warriors are sent home. In an epilogue, we're told that they all died heroically in battle and that Thor made sure they were welcomed in Valhalla. Meanwhile, Jaekelssen continues to orbit the earth.

> Characters: Thor, Strange, Sigrid, Magnus, Erik, Harald Jaekelssen

			*	*	*

Re: Dr. Strange in THOR: VIKINGS
Posted by John Simons on December 13, 2003 at 02:26:44:
In Reply to: Chronology review: THOR: VIKINGS 
posted by Paul O'Brien on December 11, 2003 at 16:14:13:


> Dr Strange's dialogue is somewhat uncharacteristic throughout - sarcastic and mildly condescending - but his actual behaviour is entirely in character.

Rats, I actually had a comment to contribute for once and I completely mucked up the post. All I was trying to do was start a new paragraph and somehow my non-message posted! Please ignore/delete previous post.

Anyway, what I meant to say is that I disagree with Paul that Dr. Strange behaves in character in this mini. Dr. Strange's character is so far off the norm the only way it can be explained if he is being possessed by Baron Mordo or something at the time of this mini.

Weird stuff includes:

Using British expressions like "staightaway", "bloody" or starting a sentence with "Right", as in "Right: down to business." 

Drinking booze while New York burns and unconcernedly quipping "Chin chin" Does Dr. Strange even drink? Wasn't he a drunk before he sought out the Ancient One?

Referring to Wong as "A little foreign fellow who tidies up"

Generally being foul-mouthed. Granted, since this is a mature readers comic the characters might have license to be a bit more "realistic" in their dialogue, but Strange never struck me as the kind of guy to casually use "ass" or "fart", regardless of whether the rating allows him to do so. 

Generally being more sarcastic, condescending, disresepctful and yes, witty, than I ever recall him being. 

Unless there was a phase of Dr. Strange's career as Sorcerer supreme when he became a drunk to rival Tony Stark, I just don't see how his behavior here fits in. Of course, whenever Ennis uses Wolverine the character bears no resemblence to the "real" Wolverine, either. I'm beginning to think all Garth Ennis stories exist in their own jaded snarky continuity. 

And as to the other argument going on, no I don't think there's anyway to reconcile the various Avenger costumes with Vision's presence. Unless Wanda was feeling particularly "retro" and decided pillaging Viking zombies was a good occasion to take her 1960's costume out of mothballs...

			*	*	*

Red Sonja chronology site
Posted by John McDonagh on December 11, 2003 at 18:31:05:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/hosted/adilbrand/conan/redsonja/sonja.htm
This site reproduces an article from Conan Saga#96 and Savage Sword#230 which detailed Red Sonja's chronology, thought it omitted Marvel Team-Up I#79. 

			*	*	*

Flashback in current Iron Man issue
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 11, 2003 at 22:07:20:

In Iron Man v3 #75 (this week's issue), there's a flashback in which Tony Stark suffers a heart attack while appearing before a Senate committee. Collapsed on the floor, the committee sees the Iron Man armor underneath Tony's shirt.

Did this scene see print before now or is this new material? I got the impression it was a reference to a '60s or '70s issue of IM.

--Paul 

			*	*	*

Chronology review: CREW
Posted by Paul O'Brien on December 13, 2003 at 07:12:14:

BIG TROUBLE IN LITTLE MOGADISHU
CREW #1-7 (July 2003 to January 2004) by Christopher Priest, Joe Bennett and Crime Lab Studios

GENERAL COMMENTS:
The whole series covers around 3 weeks. Priest is, fortunately, rather good about giving days and times for his scenes. Each issue introduces a different character by showing the story from their perspective and consequently there is some non-linear material.

Green trees in New York State.

It has to be said that much of the plotting is incredibly dense. I've tried to keep the synopsis as streamlined as reasonably possible...

SYNOPSIS

CREW #1, pp1-2: "Little Mogadishu", a Brooklyn slum. Midnight. Jeanette Rhodes, the younger sister of Jim Rhodes, is thrown from the top of a building and lands on a car below. The two responsible, Joop and Marcus, berate their colleagues for their poor aim - Jeanette was supposed to hit the dumpster a couple of metres away, not smash their own car.

Characters appearing: Jeanette Rhodes, Joop, Marcus

[No day is given, but this may be the same Monday shown in the scenes immediately following. It certainly can't be too much earlier, given the condition of Jeanette's body when it's seen in the police morgue.]

CREW #1, pp3-7. Monday. A motel room in Oakland. Jim Rhodes wakes in bed with his accountant. She has apparently been investing his money in Grace & Tumbalt (a cover for the criminal organisation 66 Bridges, as established some time ago in BLACK PANTHER). Jim is rather embittered about the world. Brunch; Jim visits a low-rent insolvency practitioner and files for bankruptcy. Afternoon; Jim tries to pawn the prototype helmet for the original War Machine armour but the pawnbroker is not interested. Instead, Jim sells his watch. Evening; Jim meets a woman for dinner. They are interrupted by a phone call from Marcy Howard, a police officer in Brooklyn, who tells Jim that Jeanette is dead.

Characters appearing: Jim Rhodes, Marcy Howard

[All of these scenes are expressly dated Monday.]

CREW #1, pp8-15. "Tuesday evening", New Lots. Jim identifies Jeanette's body. He goes to Little Mogadishu to investigate her death. He learns that Jeanette was a crack whore, and recovers her possessions. He gets into a fight with a local gang. He is interrupted by Josiah X, a local missionary.

Characters appearing: Jim Rhodes, Marcy Howard, Josiah X.

[Expressly stated to be Tuesday evening.]

CREW #1, pp16-20. "Midnight Wednesday in the Mog" - ie, it's Tuesday/Wednesday but midnight has just passed. Josiah X takes Jim Rhodes back to his mission. Jim Rhodes and Josiah X talk. "Twilight Wednesday" [by which Priest apparently means dawn] at Brooklyn College; Jim and Josiah X hack into government surveillance satellites and obtain footage which shows who killed Jeanette. "Wednesday morning"; Jim takes the evidence to Marcy, but she rejects it. Not only is it inadmissible evidence, but there is no clear proof that the people in the photo killed Jeanette, and in case the photo could have been invented. Jim stalks off. "Wednesday evening" in the Mog; following a tip-off, Kasper Cole and his crew (named in BLACK PANTHER as Daz, Jinx and Eddie X) find Joop and Marcus tied up, with traffic surveillance photos nearby showing them running red lights. This provides an excuse for Kasper to arrest them both.

Characters appearing: Jim Rhodes, Josiah X, Marcy Howard, the White Tiger, Daz, Jinx, Eddie X, Joop, Marcus

[All expressly stated to be Wednesday; the reference to a dawn scene as "twilight" reads a little oddly to my eyes, but the sequence of events is clear. So far as Kasper's continuity is concerned, this storyline follows the final issue of BLACK PANTHER. Subsequent issues make clear that he is still suffering from nausea and oversensitivity because of his new enhanced senses, although that isn't seen in this issue. Therefore his new powers must be relatively recent.]

CREW #1, pp21-22. "Friday morning in Cypress Hills." Jim Rhodes, Josiah X and Marcy Howard attend Jeanette's funeral. Marcy says that the traffic warrants provided an excuse to search Joop and Marcus' car, where they found blood samples matching Jeanette. However, she discourages vigilantism. Jim asks who Joop and Marcus work for. Jeanette declines ot answer.

Characters appearing: Jim Rhodes, Josiah X, Marcy Howard.

[Expressly stated to be Friday morning. In issue #2, Kasper oddly claims that he arrested Joop and Marcus "a few hours before" the funeral, but he must be speaking loosely.]

CREW #3, p1 to p5pn4. "Wednesday afternoon on Riverside Drive." Danny Vincent (Junta) is out of favour with the intelligence services and has been reduced to gathering evidence for high-value divorces. Posing as an optometrist, he delays a patient, Mr Winter, and steals his car. He and his men then search the car for evidence that Winter has been having an affair with his secretary.

Characters appearing: Junta, Mr & Mrs Winter

[Expressly stated to be Wednesday afternoon; this is the same Wednesday as the whole of issue #2, as the sequence of events makes clear. Therefore it is at earliest the Wednesday following Jeanette's funeral; it could be weeks later, but there is no obvious reason why it should be.]


CREW #2. "Wednesday evening in the Mog." As the White Tiger, Kasper returns to the Mog after his shift has finished. He plans to capture more criminals and then return as Kasper to arrest them - thus increasing his chances of promotion and a pay rise. He abducts a man named Spike, who is a low-end mule for local druglord Rain Man. The White Tiger knocks Spike out and locks him in the boot of a car. While Spike is out, the White Tiger visits Josiah X and asks why Jim Rhodes is still hanging around in the Mog.

Meanwhile, Jim Rhodes goes underground and derails the "money train" - a literal underground train - which carries the pay-offs from 66 Bridges to corrupt officials.

The Tiger's interrogation of Spike is interrupted by Rain Man and his henchmen. The Tiger beats them all into unconsciousness and leaves a forged confession intended to provide him - as Kasper - with justification for an arrest. Unfortunately for Kasper, he hears sirens and heads away, assuming that somebody else will get the arrest. (In fact, the police are responding to the money train crash, which is beneath the Mog.)

Kasper returns to Harlem, where his mother and girlfriend Gwen are still arguing. Cole phones Daz to find out who got the credit for Rain Man, only to learn that everyone in the area is dealing with the underground derailment. As the White Tiger, Kasper returns to the Mog and beats up Rain Man. Rain Man bargains his way out of the situation by telling Kasper that the derailed train is 66 Bridges' money train. The White Tiger heads underground, and finds the atmosphere uncomfortable because he is still adjusting to his enhanced senses. He is the first to reach the derailed train and considers arresting the corrupt cops who were on board (moonlighting as guards). However, Kasper realises that if he arrests other cops, he will be transferred to Intenral Affairs. On principle, he refuses to do that, and lets the cops go. The Tiger then detects Jim Rhodes' scent. With nobody to arrest, and seeing no point in staying, the White Tiger decides to leave. However, he is then caught up in a firefight. The Tiger tries to protect the police in the crossfire.

Characters appearing: Jim Rhodes, Josiah X, White Tiger, Rain Man, Ruth Cole, Gwen

[This covers Kasper's activities up until he turns up in issue #3; the following block of issue #3 takes place concurrently with these events.]

CREW #3, p5pn5 to p14: Danny is in the course of doublecrossing his divorce client when e is approached by an underground contact, Moishe. Moishe tells Danny about the derailed train. He asks Danny to retrieve a box from the train, on behalf of 66 Bridges. Danny refuses, but after an increased offer from Moishe, Danny agrees to meet 66 Bridges' Triage to discuss. Triage makes Danny beat up some henchmen to prove himself. Thoroughly annoyed by this, Danny ups his price again. Triage accepts the increased price. However, instead of doing the work, Danny just goes home to Bayside, Queens. He is settling down to watch David Letterman when Triage comes round and demand to know what on earth Danny thinks he's doing. Danny tells Triage that he knows Triage's superiors will come down on him hard if the box is lost, and demands even more money. Triage again accepts, and Danny finally leaves to carry out his mission.

Characters appearing: Junta, Moishe, Triage

[Although not expressly stated until halfway through, this whole scene must be Wednesday evening, because that was the time on the derailment scene shown in issue #2. All of this is concurrent with issue #2.]

CREW #3, pp15-21. Danny enters the tunnels and promptly blunders into the firefight between the White Tiger and the criminals. The Tiger attacks Danny and they fight. Both are knocked out by Jim Rhodes (apparently wearing War Machine armour incorporated into a SWAT uniform). When Danny regains consciousness, he finds that Jim has tied him to the unconscious White Tiger and is leaving them to the mercy of the police.

Characters appearing: Junta, the White Tiger, Jim Rhodes

[Apparently now Thursday morning, after midnght, judging from the next issue.]

CREW #4. "Thursday morning in the Mog." Direct continuation from the previous issue, so midnight has now passed. The cops have secured the money train and are making their way towards the White Tiger and Danny. The White Tiger uses his claws to cut Danny's handcuffs. Danny promptly betrays him and makes a break for it. The Tiger manages to fre himself anyway, and escapes. He catches up with Jim Rhodes, who is still leaving the tunnels. Jim addresses the Tiger as "Kasper", and leads him out of the tunnels. On the surface, Jim explains that he has disabled the belt which controls Danny's gravity powers. Therefore, Danny will come to find them (otherwise, he will die in fifteen minutes).

It's now dawn; on Jim's instructions, the Tiger changes back into civilian gear. They both go to the Shabazz Mission, where an AA meeting is taking place. Josiah X is also present. Danny attacks and is quickly subdued. Jim has Josiah X get everyone else to safety while he deals with Danny. Jim and Danny are left alone in the Mission. Jim reactivates Danny's belt. Danny asks Jim what he planted on the train and how it would avenge his sister's death; Jim declines to answer. Jim offers to get Danny back into work with the government. After Jim and Danny leave - and Jim casually reveals Kasper's name to Danny - Josiah X reprimands Jim for endangering innocents and tells him to stay away.

"Thursday brunch" in Kasper's apartment. Kasper returns home and watches Gwen sleeping. Danny turns up, hovering against the ceiling, and taunts Kasper. He escapes through the window while Kasper is fending off more complaints from Gwen and his mother (who finally, at long last, is named as Ruth). As the White Tiger, Kasper pursued Danny over the rooftops. Danny tells the White Tiger that he believes Jim Rhodes planted a tracer on the train. Danny proposes that he and the White Tiger try to get in on Jim's plan to bring down 66 Bridges, for their own career interests. The White Tiger tells Danny not to come near his family again, and then leaves.

Danny's theory (as he explains in voiceover) is that Jim Rhodes placed a gel which leaves a residue on your hands if you touch the cash or dope from the money train. Then he can track all the people involved in 66 Bridges' network and use that information to bring down the whole syndicate. While Danny is explaining this to us, we see Jim Rhodes watching Josiah X through binoculars. Josiah drives home to his gated community, "Princeton Walk: A Grace & Tumbalt Community Project", and talks about his day with his girlfriend Irenia. Josiah takes off his shirt, revealing his modified Captain America costume beneath (which he wears to the Mog as bulletproofing).

Characters appearing: Junta, White Tiger, Jim Rhodes, Josiah X, Gwen, Ruth Cole, Irenia.

[It's apparently evening when Josiah goes home - the lights are on at his house.]

* CREW #5, page 21. "Thursday morning in the Bronx." Josiah X is visiting his father, the brain damaged Isaiah Bradley, to play snakes and ladders. He is interrupted by visitors: Jim Rhodes, Danny Vincent and Kasper Cole.

Characters: Josiah X, Isaiah Bradley, Faith Bradley, Jim Rhodes, White Tiger, Junta

[The rest of CREW #5 is a lengthy origin flashback for Josiah X, spanning 1953 to 2002. Apparently a week - at least - has passed since issue #4.]


* CREW #6, pages 1-7. "Friday evening in Princeton Walk." Jim, Kasper and Danny arrive at Josiah's home to talk. Danny reveals that Josiah is tainted with the tracer gel from the money train. Jim tears open Josiah's shirt to expose the Captain America uniform. Josiah explains (broadly) that he is working within the set-up of the Mog, where corruption is endemic and will never be eradicated. He is apparently ashamed as the other three leave.

Characters: Josiah X, Jim Rhodes, White Tiger, Junta.

[It's a full moon. Jim ends by saying that the chemical tracer has a limited window, so they will have to suit up "tonight."]

* CREW #6, pages 8-21. "Midnight Saturday in Princeton Walk." The White Tiger and Danny Vincent attack and threaten mid-level 66 Bridges employees, while taking radio instructions from Jim Rhodes. (Jim's theory is that if they attack Triage then he will just be replaced, so they need to weaken the body as well.) At the Mission, Josiah X talks about his sense of identity with his aide, Shahid.

The White Tiger and Danny attack a theatre, mid-performance, and threaten the 66 Bridges allies in the audience. As they leave via the roof, they are attacked by a fire helicopter which shoots foam at them. Both are knocked off the roof. The White Tiger's vibranium soles allow him to survive the drop; Danny is caught by Josiah X, now wearing his costume.

Characters: Josiah X, Jim Rhodes, White Tiger, Junta, Shahid. 

[Still a full moon. Judging from Jim's dialogue in the previous scene, it's actually just after midnight on the Friday/Saturday night - in other words, the same night that we saw in the previous scene. The theatre scene obviously can't be post-midnight, and doesn't have a separate date; presumably it's Saturday evening, since the gel tracer is still working.]

* CREW #7, pages 1 to 19. "Friday evening at Grace & Tumbalt." White Tiger, Josiah X and Junta attack Triage' office. They have "spent the evening coercing crooked politicians to turn state's evidence." Jim Rhodes guides them by radio. Triage is actually out of the office monitoring by video link from his car. He blows up the building, but the three attackers escape. Jim attacks the car and smashes it with the glove of his War Machine armour. Jim is joined by the other three, and together they confront Triage. A 66 Bridges helicopter appears and attacks. Danny and the White Tiger bring it down. Meanwhile, Josiah X saves bystanders. Triage stabs Jim Rhodes and makes a break for it. The Tiger remains behind to save Jim. Danny captures Triage, but rather than making a deal with him, he turns in Triage after all. The police turn up to deal with the aftermath (and Marcy Howard from issue #1 is among them).

Characters: Josiah X, Jim Rhodes, White Tiger, Junta, Triage, Marcy Howard.

* CREW #7, pages 20 to 22. "Sunday morning." In the Mog, Danny tells Moishe that he decided not to turn in Triage. Moishe is horrified. In Harlem, Kasper sleeps with Gwen. In Princeton Walk, Josiah X wonders what he will do next, and talks with Faith Bradley. In Cypress Hills, Jim has checked himself out of hospital in order to visit Jeanette's grave. Marcy Howard joins him, and they kiss in what's presumably meant to be the pay-off to a romantic subplot we never saw.

Characters: Josiah X, Jim Rhodes, White Tiger, Junta, Moishe, Gwen, Faith Bradley, Marcy Howard

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: CREW
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 13, 2003 at 11:32:35:
In Reply to: Chronology review: CREW 
posted by Paul O'Brien on December 13, 2003 at 07:12:14:

> So far as Kasper's continuity is concerned, this storyline follows the final issue of BLACK PANTHER. Subsequent issues make clear that he is still suffering from nausea and oversensitivity because of his new enhanced senses, although that isn't seen in this issue. Therefore his new powers must be relatively recent.

Without specific references to the passage of time since BP3 62, the only temporal clues we seem to have are the green grass throughout the series, the full moon in issue #6, and the days of the week as noted. The final issues of BP3 occurred in winter (with snow present) and I've placed them in December. My inclination without much else to go on is to time the full moon on a Friday and Saturday during a non-winter month (admittedly an inexact science) and that brings me to June. If it's likely that Kasper would still be adjusting to his enhanced senses six months after receiving them, I'll place the CREW between June 8 and June 29, at least for now. And this placement makes the series contemporaneous with recent/current plotlines in some other titles.

Thanks, Paul!


--The Other Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: CREW
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 13, 2003 at 11:41:52:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology review: CREW 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 13, 2003 at 11:32:35:

> I'll place the CREW between June 8 and June 29, at least for now. And this placement makes the series contemporaneous with recent/current plotlines in some other titles.

Oops, I mean June 7 and June 28.

--Paul 

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: CREW
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 13, 2003 at 11:44:23:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology review: CREW 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 13, 2003 at 11:41:52:

> > I'll place the CREW between June 8 and June 29, at least for now. And this placement makes the series contemporaneous with recent/current plotlines in some other titles.

> Oops, I mean June 7 and June 28.

No, I mean June 9 and June 30. Time to take a break...

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: CREW
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 13, 2003 at 12:03:21:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology review: CREW 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 13, 2003 at 11:44:23:

> > > I'll place the CREW between June 8 and June 29, at least for now. And this placement makes the series contemporaneous with recent/current plotlines in some other titles.

> > Oops, I mean June 7 and June 28.

> No, I mean June 9 and June 30. Time to take a break...

But there's no rest for the weary. Here's the REAL breakdown:

Monday, June 2
CREW #1 (1-7)

Tuesday, June 3
CREW #2 (8-15)

Wednesday, June 4
CREW #2 (16-20)

Friday, June 6
CREW #2 (21-22)

Wednesday, June 11
CREW #3 (1-5p4)
CREW #2
CREW #3 (5p5-14)

Thursday, June 12
CREW #3 (15-21)
CREW #4

Thursday, June 19
CREW #5

Friday, June 20
CREW #6 (1-7) Full moon

Saturday, June 21
CREW #6 (8-21) Full moon

Friday, June 27
CREW #7 (1-19)

Sunday, June 29
CREW #7 (20-22)

The only thing we'll need to watch for is the timing of Magneto's destruction and takeover of Manhattan in New X-Men. As CREW occurs in New York City, we'll want to avoid conflicting stories. Thus this, as everything, is subject to adjustment.

--Paul

			*	*	*

U-Man as young Merrano in Saga of the Sub-Mariner#2...Byrrah in it as well 
Posted by John McDonagh on December 13, 2003 at 18:21:39:

The U-Man appears as Merrano as young boy in this issue. Byrrah also appears throught. I noticed that Byrrah's chronology is a little bit skimpy, so one might want to add to it as well.

BYRRAH
SAGASM 2-FB
SAGASM 2-FB

U-MAN/MERRANO
SAGASM 2-FB
SAGASM 

I do not have Invaders 4, so I am not sure how this would fit in with his appearances there. I have given a full summary below, so the more informed could probably fix it up. 

Saga of the Sub-Mariner#2

This issue was a summary of Namor's youth from about ages 10-17. The U-MAN appears in two scenes as MERRANO. The first scence is a flashback to when Namor first learned he could breathe underwater. The second scene takes place when Namor is 15, and he first meets Namora.

I don't have any issues of Invaders, but these appearances would definetly predate the U-Man's World War II activities. 

In the notes to this issue, Roy Thomas states that this issue is largely based on the young Namor stories that ran in the 1950's volume of the Sub-Mariner Comics. I don't have those, but from http://members5.boardhost.com/GAMS/3990.html I have a list that details those stories, so if one wants to match them up, I have included notes as to which parts of the story refer to which of those tales. 
..............................................................................
The main plot of the story is just Namor's youth. He passes by Dorma one day and goes to the palace to the speak to hsi grandfather. He later leaves with Fen and chats about the past. Due to an accident, Namor first learns he can fly. Later, Namor meets his cousin Namora for the first time. Later, Namor oversees the salvaging of a ship, leaves his knife behind on the ship, and when he returns to find it, encounters men in diving suits. This segues into Namor's debut in Motion Pictures Funnies Weekly#1/Marvel Comics#1. 

NAMOR, as a young boy, tells DORMA to leave him alone. NAMOR passes and greets an Atlantean named FARAX.

NAMOR's presence is announced by an unnamed servant. He meets with THAKORR and FEN. He leaves with Fen and they start to chat about old times. 

FEN and NAMOR recall the first day FEN showed NAMOR off at the royal palace.

FLASHBACK, Page 4, Panels 4-5: NAMOR, not long after birth, is show off to the royal court. We see a very young NAMOR with FEN, THAKORR, BRYNN (Byrrah's mother) and BYRRAH.

FEN and NAMOR recall the first time they learned he can breathe air. 

FLASHBACK, Page 4, Panel 6 to most of Page 5: Namor, while playing with the other boys, is trapped on the surface. He first learns he can breathe air. We see NAMOR, BYRRAH, FEN, a nameless search party, and MERRANO (who later becomes the U-MAN). 

Story resumes with FEN and NAMOR talking, then another flashback:

FLASHBACK: At some point, NAMOR lifted a fallen mast from a sunken ship, with FEN, THAKORR, and a bearded Atlantean looking on. This event presumably took place after the above flashbacks, as it was the first time Namor demonstrated his amazing strengh. 

Story resumes on pages 9-13. NAMOR and FEN continue to speak, and NAMOR first learns he can fly (his wings on his feet manifest). This is actually a retelling of Sub-Mariner Comics#38. 

On pages 13-14, at age 15, we segue into the first meeting of NAMOR and NAMORA. DORMA, FEN, BYRRAH, and MERRANO (the future U-MAN) are present. This is actually retelling of Sub-Mariner Comics#39. 

On pages 16-17, years later, past the age of 18, NAMOR oversees the salvaging of a sunken ship. FEN, THAKORR, BYRRAH, DORMA, and KORMOK (an Atlantean) are present. This leads into the incident where Namor attacks the two men in diving suits seen in Marvel Comics#1. 

			*	*	*

Gambit calendar question for Jeph
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 13, 2003 at 20:31:33:

Jeph,

I know you're working on your grand X-chronology and that it may answer my question, but you asked for it, so here goes...

I'm having difficulty with Gambit's chronology and calendar placement from X 98 to GAM3 20. Does your chronology for him match the current MCP chronology? 

A lot of time seems to pass during this period, too --"a few months" between GAMCC and GAM3 12, "about six weeks" between GAM3 12 and the beginning of GAM3 15, "three months" during GAM3 15, followed by "eight weeks" passing in GAM3 16, etc. I'm finding it difficult to fit all this time onto the calendar, especially given references to the passage of time between GAM3 issues and stories in other titles(the "few weeks" between CA3 24 and GAM3 18) and the order of GAM3 vis-a-vis the main X-team titles.

I was never all that clear about plotlines in GAM3 anyway, so that's not helping. Can you shed any light on this, or would this necessitate rolling out your whole X-chronology for the period in question?

--Paul 

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit calendar question for Jeph
Posted by Jeph! on December 13, 2003 at 23:39:09:
In Reply to: Gambit calendar question for Jeph 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 13, 2003 at 20:31:33:

> I'm having difficulty with Gambit's chronology and calendar placement from X 98 to GAM3 20.

Oooh, you WOULD have to ask about the period just after my map ENDS, wouldn't you...

> Does your chronology for him match the current MCP chronology?

Off the top of my head -- no, not really. The MCP listing says that Gambit's trip through time (GAM3 #12-14) occurs before UX #380, the beginning of the six-month gap that lasted until X #100. However, GAM3 #15 makes it clear that Gambit was missing in time for three months -- so it seems much simpler to place these issues AFTER UX #380, and DURING the first half of the six-month gap.

GAM3 #16 occurs over an additional eight weeks -- which would correspond to months #4 and 5 of the six-month gap -- which leaves the final month of the gap to hold "Assassination Game", GAM3 #17-19 and Annual 2000. This last issue needs to occur before X #100, as Shadowcat is present, and she vanishes in X #100, not to reappear until after UX #389.

So, long story short, I have GAM3 #12-19 pretty much filling the six-month gap. Does shifting GAM3 #12-15's three months into the gap help ease the pressure on your calendar at all, Paul?

> Can you shed any light on this, or would this necessitate rolling out your whole X-chronology for the period in question?

That's about all I can do off the top of my head. Unfortunately, this period isn't one that I've looked at too closely yet, but if you have any specific issue info questions, I can always dig them out and give you answers there.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit calendar question for Jeph
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 14, 2003 at 14:21:25:
In Reply to: Re: Gambit calendar question for Jeph 
posted by Jeph! on December 13, 2003 at 23:39:09:

> > I'm having difficulty with Gambit's chronology and calendar placement from X 98 to GAM3 20.

> Oooh, you WOULD have to ask about the period just after my map ENDS, wouldn't you...

Sorry about that. Bet this just makes you want to extend the map further, doesn't it? ;)


> > Does your chronology for him match the current MCP chronology?

> Off the top of my head -- no, not really. The MCP listing says that Gambit's trip through time (GAM3 #12-14) occurs before UX #380, the beginning of the six-month gap that lasted until X #100. However, GAM3 #15 makes it clear that Gambit was missing in time for three months -- so it seems much simpler to place these issues AFTER UX #380, and DURING the first half of the six-month gap.

> GAM3 #16 occurs over an additional eight weeks -- which would correspond to months #4 and 5 of the six-month gap -- which leaves the final month of the gap to hold "Assassination Game", GAM3 #17-19 and Annual 2000. This last issue needs to occur before X #100, as Shadowcat is present, and she vanishes in X #100, not to reappear until after UX #389.

> So, long story short, I have GAM3 #12-19 pretty much filling the six-month gap. Does shifting GAM3 #12-15's three months into the gap help ease the pressure on your calendar at all, Paul?

Yes, it should. I have tentative plans to set that six-month period during the January to July just prior to Maximum Security. To do this may require a few other changes to MCP character chronologies, as well as the usual declaration of some temporal references as being topical. If Gambit's MCP listing isn't quite what you have calculated, I'm hoping we can shift a few other MCP listings around as well -- mostly guest appearances whose placements may make no real difference (e.g. FF in XM 59). I haven't spent a lot of time on this yet, but I'll let you know what I come up with, whenever that is. I'm still trying to make the current calendar my top priority, including your new take on the sequencing of recent X titles when that's available.


> > Can you shed any light on this, or would this necessitate rolling out your whole X-chronology for the period in question?

> That's about all I can do off the top of my head. Unfortunately, this period isn't one that I've looked at too closely yet, but if you have any specific issue info questions, I can always dig them out and give you answers there.

One comes to mind immediately: The Gambit Cyber Comic is supposed to occur "a few months" before GAM3 12, which suggests it should occur earlier in Gambit's chronology than the MCP places it. Where do you have it?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Gambit, Cybercomics, X-Men, the FF and the Twelve Saga...
Posted by Jeph! on December 21, 2003 at 00:42:09:
In Reply to: Re: Gambit calendar question for Jeph 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 14, 2003 at 14:21:25:

> this just makes you want to extend the map further, doesn't it? ;)

Makes me want to cry, actually.


> I'm hoping we can shift a few other MCP listings around as well -- mostly guest appearances whose placements may make no real difference (e.g. FF in XM 59).

Actually, the FF in XM #59 is quite a problem. Prof. X appears in FF3 #24, and claims that he has disbanded his X-Men. The "disbanding" ruse corresponds to the period between X #92 and UX #375. However, FF3 #24 continues directly into #25, where Reed is sealed inside Dr. Doom's armor until FF3 #30.

Now, in XM #59, which continues fairly directly into X #96, we see a normal Reed. Meaning that this is either before FF3 #24, or after FF3 #30...

XM #55 occurs the day before X #92, and according to GAM3 #8-9, three days separate X #92 and UX #375 -- so it's possible that XM #56-59 all occur the same day as X #92, FF3 #24 occurs the next day, and UX #375 ends Prof. X's "disbanding" ruse the following day -- but I don't have XM #56-58, and can't check the passage of time.

It's also possible that FF3 #24 occurs AFTER XM #59, X #96 and the Twelve Saga -- indeed, Magneto's appearamnce in FF3 #27, "days" after FF3 #24, would be easier to place then -- but if FF3 #24 occurs after Prof. X has discovered the traitor in the X-Men's midst, why would he lie to the FF about having disbanded the X-Men?

Feh. Anyway, that's a glitch I thought I should mention, since you brought it up.


> I'm still trying to make the current calendar my top priority, including your new take on the sequencing of recent X titles when that's available.

Well, please remember that at this point I'm buying most of my X-books in TPB form -- which means I'm only current up through UX #427, XX #30, WX2 #13, etc etc. The calendars you've been coming up with have been just fine, so far.


> The Gambit Cyber Comic is supposed to occur "a few months" before GAM3 12, which suggests it should occur earlier in Gambit's chronology than the MCP places it. Where do you have it?

That's a tough one, because I'm working off a memory of reading the damned thing online in 1997. However, I remember a puzzling footnote that placed the cybercomic after Gambit's encounter with Fenris -- meaning, after GAM3 #10. (The footnote was puzzling because the cybercomic hit the web at about the same time GAM3 #2 was published. That's why I remember it so vividly, too.) So that's where I have it, after GAM3 #10.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit, Cybercomics, X-Men, the FF and the Twelve Saga...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 21, 2003 at 08:56:37:
In Reply to: Gambit, Cybercomics, X-Men, the FF and the Twelve Saga... 
posted by Jeph! on December 21, 2003 at 00:42:09:

> > I'm hoping we can shift a few other MCP listings around as well -- mostly guest appearances whose placements may make no real difference (e.g. FF in XM 59).

> Actually, the FF in XM #59 is quite a problem. Prof. X appears in FF3 #24, and claims that he has disbanded his X-Men. The "disbanding" ruse corresponds to the period between X #92 and UX #375. However, FF3 #24 continues directly into #25, where Reed is sealed inside Dr. Doom's armor until FF3 #30.

> Now, in XM #59, which continues fairly directly into X #96, we see a normal Reed. Meaning that this is either before FF3 #24, or after FF3 #30...

> XM #55 occurs the day before X #92, and according to GAM3 #8-9, three days separate X #92 and UX #375 -- so it's possible that XM #56-59 all occur the same day as X #92, FF3 #24 occurs the next day, and UX #375 ends Prof. X's "disbanding" ruse the following day -- but I don't have XM #56-58, and can't check the passage of time.

XM 56-58 take place in one day, a "week" after XM 57-FB, which features Nate and Mysterio. XM 59 cannot occur the same day as XM 58, as XM 58 clearly occurs at night and XM 59 during the day. And FF3 24 cannot occur the same day as XM 59, as Nate has dinner with Franklin in XM 59 and FF3 24 opens with Wilhelmina Lumpkin delivering the "morning" mail. It may be possible for UX 375 to occur the same day as FF3 24, with Xavier appearing in FF3 24 first, but I have old notes that suggest that both GX 59 and UX 375 occur the day after X 94 and UX 374 (thus the same day), and the FF are not home in GX 59. Yet the FF appear to be home all day in FF3 24.

More to ponder when I get to it. Thanks for the tip.


> It's also possible that FF3 #24 occurs AFTER XM #59, X #96 and the Twelve Saga -- indeed, Magneto's appearamnce in FF3 #27, "days" after FF3 #24, would be easier to place then -- but if FF3 #24 occurs after Prof. X has discovered the traitor in the X-Men's midst, why would he lie to the FF about having disbanded the X-Men?

> Feh. Anyway, that's a glitch I thought I should mention, since you brought it up.

I appreciate it.

> 
> > I'm still trying to make the current calendar my top priority, including your new take on the sequencing of recent X titles when that's available.

> Well, please remember that at this point I'm buying most of my X-books in TPB form -- which means I'm only current up through UX #427, XX #30, WX2 #13, etc etc. The calendars you've been coming up with have been just fine, so far.

If my previous listings through the fall of the year of the Kang War look good, then, pending agreement on the current X-calendar (different thread), we should be okay.

> 
> > The Gambit Cyber Comic is supposed to occur "a few months" before GAM3 12, which suggests it should occur earlier in Gambit's chronology than the MCP places it. Where do you have it?

> That's a tough one, because I'm working off a memory of reading the damned thing online in 1997. However, I remember a puzzling footnote that placed the cybercomic after Gambit's encounter with Fenris -- meaning, after GAM3 #10. (The footnote was puzzling because the cybercomic hit the web at about the same time GAM3 #2 was published. That's why I remember it so vividly, too.) So that's where I have it, after GAM3 #10.

Is GAMCC archived anywhere?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit, Cybercomics, X-Men, the FF and the Twelve Saga...
Posted by Jeph! on December 21, 2003 at 11:41:36:
In Reply to: Re: Gambit, Cybercomics, X-Men, the FF and the Twelve Saga... 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 21, 2003 at 08:56:37:

Thanks for the X-Man info ... ugh. Unless the X-men search for Wolverine for an entire week between UX #375 and X #95, we may have a problem here.

Although, there's some cross-pollination between Gen-X, New Warriors v2 and Fantastic Four in that time period that might make it easier to justify placing FF3 #24-30 later than the Twelve Saga...

If I recall, Gen-X and the Warriors have a crossover in GEN-X #59, which is referenced in NW2 #5 "a month" later, on a "Christmas Eve" that post-dates the "Christmas season" in Gen-X #60-61.

Then, in NW2 #8, Nita is lamenting the bad press she's getting for dating the Torch while Doom appears to have joined the team.

If the time passed between NW2 #5-8 is longer than that of FF3 #24-30 -- and don't forget the month between GEN-X #59 and NW2 #5 -- then we have some evidence that, contrary to Prof. X's excuse in FF3 #24, the issue DOES occur after the Twelve Saga.


> It may be possible for UX 375 to occur the same day as FF3 24, with Xavier appearing in FF3 24 first, but I have old notes that suggest that both GX 59 and UX 375 occur the day after X 94 and UX 374 (thus the same day), and the FF are not home in GX 59. Yet the FF appear to be home all day in FF3 24.

Assuming "GX" is "Generation X", I agree that they're the same day -- because in Gen-X #59, it's mentioned that Sean and Jubilee are at the X-Mansion (which they are in UX #375).


> Is GAMCC archived anywhere?

As far as I know, no. That's what makes it so frustrating.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Gambit, Cybercomics, X-Men, the FF and the Twelve Saga...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 21, 2003 at 19:45:51:
In Reply to: Re: Gambit, Cybercomics, X-Men, the FF and the Twelve Saga... 
posted by Jeph! on December 21, 2003 at 11:41:36:

> Thanks for the X-Man info ... ugh. Unless the X-men search for Wolverine for an entire week between UX #375 and X #95, we may have a problem here.

> Although, there's some cross-pollination between Gen-X, New Warriors v2 and Fantastic Four in that time period that might make it easier to justify placing FF3 #24-30 later than the Twelve Saga...

> If I recall, Gen-X and the Warriors have a crossover in GEN-X #59, which is referenced in NW2 #5 "a month" later, on a "Christmas Eve" that post-dates the "Christmas season" in Gen-X #60-61.

Except (sigh) it looks like these Christmas references may end up being topical. As discussed a while ago, there are too many Christmases in the MU than can be accommodated reasonably given the passage of time in the MU. This is shaping up to be one of those years that Marvel's holiday stories can't occur in December. Argh.

In any event, we can still use the Christmas references to determine relative, if not absolute, chronological placements.


> Then, in NW2 #8, Nita is lamenting the bad press she's getting for dating the Torch while Doom appears to have joined the team.

> If the time passed between NW2 #5-8 is longer than that of FF3 #24-30 -- and don't forget the month between GEN-X #59 and NW2 #5 -- then we have some evidence that, contrary to Prof. X's excuse in FF3 #24, the issue DOES occur after the Twelve Saga.

My notes state that FF3 27 occurs before NW2 6 (although the MCP places FF3 27 after NW2 7). The passage of time between NW2 6 and NW2 8 is about four weeks, and FF 27-30 can easily occur within that time frame.

Anyway, this bears more analysis, and I hope to get to it sometime soon.


> > It may be possible for UX 375 to occur the same day as FF3 24, with Xavier appearing in FF3 24 first, but I have old notes that suggest that both GX 59 and UX 375 occur the day after X 94 and UX 374 (thus the same day), and the FF are not home in GX 59. Yet the FF appear to be home all day in FF3 24.

> Assuming "GX" is "Generation X", I agree that they're the same day -- because in Gen-X #59, it's mentioned that Sean and Jubilee are at the X-Mansion (which they are in UX #375).

Oops. Sometimes I forget the MCP abbreviations, but yes, I meant Generation X.


> > Is GAMCC archived anywhere?

> As far as I know, no. That's what makes it so frustrating.

Drat.

--Paul

			*	*	*

VOLSTAGG...WALRUS...WARHAWK II
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 15, 2003 at 08:34:32:

new entries marked **


VOLSTAGG

**T@ 5
JIM 119/2
**JIM 120/2
**JIM 121/2-BTS Volstagg boards the boat with Thor and company in JIM 120/2 and is still aboard in JIM 122/2; he must have been aboard but out of sight in JIM 121/2.
JIM 122/2

.. .. .. .. .. 

T 145/2
**T 404/2
**T 405/2
**T 406/2
**T@ 14/3 
**T 401
T 323
M/:LG 5
T 479-FB (7p2)
**T 254-FB (13p1-p3)
**T 254-FB (14p4-p5) ~ T 479-FB (11p2)

JIM -1

. Similarly (re T 254-FB) 
. FANDRAL [ASGARDIAN]
. And
. HOGUN [ASGARDIAN]

. M/:LG 5
. T 479-FB (7p2)
. **T 254-FB (14p3)
. **T 254-FB (15p1) ~ T 479-FB (11p3)

. JIM 1

And
. THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"

. Currently in MCP
. M/:LG 5
. T 415-FB-BTS
. T 479-FB-BTS
. T 415-FB-BTS
. T 479-FB-BTS
. T 415-FB-BTS
. JIM 1

. I dont quite understand why these are BTS entries, and the early Thor mythos gives me a headache in general so

. Without the BTS entries, heres my cut at blending in the FBs in T 254(new), T 415 and T 479:
. M/:LG 5
. **T 254-FB (7p2  11p3) ~ T 415-FB (2p1  4p3) Thor breaks the royal truce when he follows the Birdbeast to Niffleheim. The two segments are pretty much word for word.
. **T 254-FB (11p4) Balder and Thor retreat from Niffleheim
. T 479-FB (7p2) Thor and friends battling giants in Ringsfjord.
. **T 254FB (12p4  14p3) Thor arm-wrestling; . brawl begins
. **T 254-FB (15p1,15p3) ~ T 479 (11p4-11p5) mid-brawl to end
. **T 254FB (16p1) Thor meets with Odin
. **T 254FB (16p2-17p3) ~ T 479 (13p1-13p5) Odin explains why and sends Thor to Earth as Don Blake
. T 479 (13p6) Blake introduces himself on campus
. **T 254FB (17p4-18p1) Blake gets directions and heads to registrars office
. JIM 1


WALRUS
(aka Hubert Carpenter DEF 131 (3p2))

**DEF 131
PPTSS 185


WARHAWK II
(aka Mitchell Tanner PM&IF 83 (15p3))

**PM&IF 83-FB (15p4-16p7)
M/PRM 23
BG 2
BG 3
UX 110
PM&IF 76
PM&IF 83
** X 10/2
**X 11/2


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information 


#141 

			*	*	*

More X-chronology reshuffling needed
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 18, 2003 at 22:21:21:

When last we left our calculation of recent X-chronology, we had Uncanny X-Men up through issue #434 happen quite a while before the riot in X 134, through a reinterpretation of the word "riot" in UX 422.

BUT, look at this week's UX 435. It occurs "three days" after UX 434 and Xavier makes explicit reference to "a student uprising" (aka the Riot at Xavier's). Note also that Xavier is not crippled in UX 435, and he does not mention the devastating Magneto encounter of X 150 as something that has contributed to his feeling "overwhelmed" lately. That places UX 435 (and probably 436) probably during the time between X 141 and 142.

So how do we deal with this? Do we need to sacrifice either all those summer references or the timing of the birth of Heather's baby? And just where WERE those uncanny members of the team during the riot and Magneto's takeover?

Here's an idea -- if Jean can have multiple trips, maybe Heather had multiple pregnancies! The first pregnancy ended in miscarriage, then she became pregnant again soon after and carried that baby to term. Just a thought if all else fails...

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: More X-chronology reshuffling needed
Posted by Jeph! on December 19, 2003 at 11:38:24:
In Reply to: More X-chronology reshuffling needed 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 18, 2003 at 22:21:21:

> When last we left our calculation of recent X-chronology, we had Uncanny X-Men up through issue #434 happen quite a while before the riot in X 134, through a reinterpretation of the word "riot" in UX 422.

> BUT, look at this week's UX 435. It occurs "three days" after UX 434 and Xavier makes explicit reference to "a student uprising" (aka the Riot at Xavier's). Note also that Xavier is not crippled in UX 435, and he does not mention the devastating Magneto encounter of X 150 as something that has contributed to his feeling "overwhelmed" lately. That places UX 435 (and probably 436) probably during the time between X 141 and 142.

This really isn't that big a problem. All it means is that UX #429-436 need to occur in the gap(s) we'd previously identified in X #138-145. The "riot" reference in #422 can still refer to the Shi'Ar invasion, keeping UX #417-427 in the fall and keeping Heather's pregnancy timing right. And "The Draco", UX #429-434, seems to occur in one day -- so really, we've only got four or five days' worth of stuff to cram into various gaps.

('Course, that means we've also got Mystique #1-10 to fit in there now too, as they occur after UX #434...)

Thought: can "The Draco" occur BEFORE the Riot, and "The Trial of Juggernaut" occur AFTER? Stretch the "thre days" reference a bit? That might make it easier to find room for those "Mystique" issues...

> And just where WERE those uncanny members of the team during the riot and Magneto's takeover?

You'll never get anywhere asking questions like that. ;-) That said, maybe the Uncanny team was among the super-heroes called out to Brooklyn by Magneto's "black hole bomb" hoax.

> Here's an idea -- if Jean can have multiple trips, maybe Heather had multiple pregnancies! 

Eeeehhh...

I *really* don't like that idea. Hopefully what I said above should make it unnecessary, though.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Re: More X-chronology reshuffling needed
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 19, 2003 at 21:39:48:
In Reply to: Re: More X-chronology reshuffling needed 
posted by Jeph! on December 19, 2003 at 11:38:24:

> > When last we left our calculation of recent X-chronology, we had Uncanny X-Men up through issue #434 happen quite a while before the riot in X 134, through a reinterpretation of the word "riot" in UX 422.

> > BUT, look at this week's UX 435. It occurs "three days" after UX 434 and Xavier makes explicit reference to "a student uprising" (aka the Riot at Xavier's). Note also that Xavier is not crippled in UX 435, and he does not mention the devastating Magneto encounter of X 150 as something that has contributed to his feeling "overwhelmed" lately. That places UX 435 (and probably 436) probably during the time between X 141 and 142.

> This really isn't that big a problem. All it means is that UX #429-436 need to occur in the gap(s) we'd previously identified in X #138-145. The "riot" reference in #422 can still refer to the Shi'Ar invasion, keeping UX #417-427 in the fall and keeping Heather's pregnancy timing right. And "The Draco", UX #429-434, seems to occur in one day -- so really, we've only got four or five days' worth of stuff to cram into various gaps.

Actually, UX 422-427 can occur the previous fall, and a big gap can separate UX 427 and 429. This means disregarding the references in UX 429 and 430 to it being "a few weeks" after UX 422, but I think a temporal reference or two are going to have to be sacrificed to make everything work anyway.

I would suggest placing UX 429-436 (both "Draco" and "Trial of Juggernaut" stories) during the week that must exist between pages 9 and 10 of X 138.

> ('Course, that means we've also got Mystique #1-10 to fit in there now too, as they occur after UX #434...)

Not a problem. All ten issues could be placed in the gap between X 141 and 142.

> Thought: can "The Draco" occur BEFORE the Riot, and "The Trial of Juggernaut" occur AFTER? Stretch the "thre days" reference a bit? That might make it easier to find room for those "Mystique" issues...

I wouldn't recommend this. The riot takes too long and three days is a realistic time for Juggernaut to be held by the Canadian authorities before Xavier and Jen come to his defense. See my suggestion above.

> > And just where WERE those uncanny members of the team during the riot and Magneto's takeover?

> You'll never get anywhere asking questions like that. ;-) That said, maybe the Uncanny team was among the super-heroes called out to Brooklyn by Magneto's "black hole bomb" hoax.

Well, this provides an opportunity for a future "lost story of the X-Men" continuity implant to provide an explanation. ;-)

> > Here's an idea -- if Jean can have multiple trips, maybe Heather had multiple pregnancies! 

> Eeeehhh...

> I *really* don't like that idea.

Neither do I, really.

So, to recap...how about this?

X 134 - X 138(page 9)
UX 429-434 
UX 435-436
X 138 (page 10) - X 141
MYS 1-6
MYS 7-12
X 142-150

Hopefully, Jean won't show up at the mansion in UX 436; since she doesn't appear in UX 429-435, we can presume that she's on the trip she was on during the riot and from which she did not return until X 138 (16-23). Since Scott appears briefly in UX 429, we know this story occurs before he takes off upon Jean's return.

If you go along with this basic order, I've worked up a calendar that incorporates it into a May-June timeline involving New X-Men, Uncanny X-Men, X-Treme X-Men, Mystique, New Mutants, X-Statix, and Weapon X.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: More X-chronology reshuffling needed
Posted by Kevin on December 19, 2003 at 21:56:41:
In Reply to: Re: More X-chronology reshuffling needed 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 19, 2003 at 21:39:48:

I usually don't jump into these Xmen chronology debates, leaving it to you two brave souls to figure it all out. ;-)

But I'd add that Jeph previously worked around the words "the riot" because it was in quotation marks, and thus you two explained it away saying that was a reference to the Shiar invasion, not the true riot from New Xmen 135-138. 

But here in UXM #435, we have the words, "a student uprising" that's a bit harder to pass off as something else, unless some other students activities could be construed to be "a student uprising", but it's more than likely a direct reference to the true 'Riot'.

So if UX 429-436 can fit inbetween the pages of X 138, then that's what I'd vote for. But I'll leave the final vote up to you two.

Can you tell me though whether you have the She-Hulk guest appearance we see in UXM #435 is BEFORE or AFTER the events of Red Zone and "The Search for She-Hulk" in Avengers? Cause that one scene is just messing with my head....

Or is it too early to incorporate Avengers chronology with Xmen chronology just yet? 

			*	*	*

Re: More X-chronology reshuffling needed
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 20, 2003 at 15:15:19:
In Reply to: Re: More X-chronology reshuffling needed 
posted by Kevin on December 19, 2003 at 21:56:41:

> I usually don't jump into these Xmen chronology debates, leaving it to you two brave souls to figure it all out. ;-)

> But I'd add that Jeph previously worked around the words "the riot" because it was in quotation marks, and thus you two explained it away saying that was a reference to the Shiar invasion, not the true riot from New Xmen 135-138. 

> But here in UXM #435, we have the words, "a student uprising" that's a bit harder to pass off as something else, unless some other students activities could be construed to be "a student uprising", but it's more than likely a direct reference to the true 'Riot'.

> So if UX 429-436 can fit inbetween the pages of X 138, then that's what I'd vote for. But I'll leave the final vote up to you two.

> Can you tell me though whether you have the She-Hulk guest appearance we see in UXM #435 is BEFORE or AFTER the events of Red Zone and "The Search for She-Hulk" in Avengers? Cause that one scene is just messing with my head....

> Or is it too early to incorporate Avengers chronology with Xmen chronology just yet? 

It's never too early! ;-)

Given the amount of crap Jen gave Cain about property damage in UX 435, and given the extensive amount she herself caused in A3 73-75, I'm inclined to put UX 435-436 BEFORE A3 65 (the start of the "Red Zone" story that leads to Jen's savage transformation).

Temporal references can be used to confirm this. UX 435-436 are tied into all those X-titles that have early summer vacation references. "Red Zone" probably occurs a little later during that summer vacation, given the warm weather and family tourist groups at Mount Rushmore. However, I do hesitate to put "The Hunt for She-Hulk" story in A3 73-75 as far forward as the late fall/early winter it seems to be in Bone, Idaho.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Avengers/Xmen/Hulk/She-Hulk/headaches...
Posted by Kevin on December 22, 2003 at 11:53:04:
In Reply to: Re: More X-chronology reshuffling needed 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 20, 2003 at 15:15:19:


> > Can you tell me though whether you have the She-Hulk guest appearance we see in UXM #435 is BEFORE or AFTER the events of Red Zone and "The Search for She-Hulk" in Avengers? Cause that one scene is just messing with my head....

> > Or is it too early to incorporate Avengers chronology with Xmen chronology just yet? 

> It's never too early! ;-)

> Given the amount of crap Jen gave Cain about property damage in UX 435, and given the extensive amount she herself caused in A3 73-75, I'm inclined to put UX 435-436 BEFORE A3 65 (the start of the "Red Zone" story that leads to Jen's savage transformation).

> Temporal references can be used to confirm this. UX 435-436 are tied into all those X-titles that have early summer vacation references. "Red Zone" probably occurs a little later during that summer vacation, given the warm weather and family tourist groups at Mount Rushmore. However, I do hesitate to put "The Hunt for She-Hulk" story in A3 73-75 as far forward as the late fall/early winter it seems to be in Bone, Idaho.

> --Paul

Good, that's along the lines of what I was thinking. I coulda swore you at one point had Red Zone as early as March, and so I was thinking you had "The Search for She-Hulk" happening in May. And then having She-Hulk appear in Uncanny Xmen and chastising Juggernaut about property damage? Nah, the way you have it above is much better...

The snow in Bone, Idaho could concievably be as early as early October...let me say that my own personal theory on using winter weather placement is that any point from Oct. 1st to April 30th is possible. But when you have snow appear on your calender in the U.S.A. from May 1st to Sept. 30th, it just kinda stretches it. I remember complaining to you about having Avengers #51 (the heart of the Kang War) happen around May 3rd, because even if it is in Northern Montana, there's still enough snow to me that it looks like the middle of winter. So I'm hoping to avoid similar snow dificulties. ;-)

Moving on, I'm also trying to make a Hulk placement for his appearance in Avengers #74-75. There's still the problem of Bruce Jones' stories on the Hulk title are not letting any time pass. Everything seems bunched together. We're in Feb/March with where the Hulk is currently, I believe, and so that's another reason why I was thinking maybe we could squeeze in an appearance by the Hulk in Avengers 74-74 in April, (when their could still concievably be snow in Idaho). But if we can actual just get some freakin PASSAGE OF TIME in the Hulk title, we can probably work it so that Hulk appears in early October in Avengers #74-75.

I'm going to give my next review of the latest issues of Hulk at some point in January...so I'll give more details on Hulk then. 

			*	*	*

Re: Avengers/Xmen/Hulk/She-Hulk/headaches...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 22, 2003 at 21:42:48:
In Reply to: Avengers/Xmen/Hulk/She-Hulk/headaches... 
posted by Kevin on December 22, 2003 at 11:53:04:

> Good, that's along the lines of what I was thinking. I coulda swore you at one point had Red Zone as early as March, and so I was thinking you had "The Search for She-Hulk" happening in May. And then having She-Hulk appear in Uncanny Xmen and chastising Juggernaut about property damage? Nah, the way you have it above is much better...

I tend not to let much time pass as I first place new stories on the calendar; it's in our interest to make Marvel Time move more slowly or we face the dreaded non-aging conundrum a bit more quickly. However, as inter-title continuities and temporal references start to accumulate, I'll push the time forward as needed. So yes, I did have "Red Zone" in the late winter/early spring, but now I see that it should occur later, in warm weather and after those X-stories that tie into early "summer vacation."


> The snow in Bone, Idaho could concievably be as early as early October...let me say that my own personal theory on using winter weather placement is that any point from Oct. 1st to April 30th is possible. But when you have snow appear on your calender in the U.S.A. from May 1st to Sept. 30th, it just kinda stretches it. I remember complaining to you about having Avengers #51 (the heart of the Kang War) happen around May 3rd, because even if it is in Northern Montana, there's still enough snow to me that it looks like the middle of winter. So I'm hoping to avoid similar snow dificulties. ;-)

Well, there IS that sign in A3 72 for a "fall tire sale."

--Paul 

			*	*	*

Re: More X-chronology reshuffling needed
Posted by Jeph! on December 20, 2003 at 01:11:52:
In Reply to: Re: More X-chronology reshuffling needed 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 19, 2003 at 21:39:48:

> > UX #429-436 need to occur in the gap(s) we'd previously identified in X #138-145. The "riot" reference in #422 can still refer to the Shi'Ar invasion, keeping UX #417-427 in the fall and keeping Heather's pregnancy timing right.

> Actually, UX 422-427 can occur the previous fall, and a big gap can separate UX 427 and 429.

That's ... what I just said. ;-)

> I think a temporal reference or two are going to have to be sacrificed to make everything work anyway.

One horrible day, I'm going to remind you that you said this. One horrible day, oh yes...

> I would suggest placing UX 429-436 (both "Draco" and "Trial of Juggernaut" stories) during the week that must exist between pages 9 and 10 of X 138.

Why exactly did we decide that a week "must" separate these two pages? Pp.7-9 are labelled "Tuesday", and Pp. 10-14 are labelled "Thursday". Seems to me that either 2 or 9 days separate these pages.

Or, were you using the issue's mistake that pp.1-6, labelled "Wednesday", are also listed as "yesterday" on pp.7-9, which are labelled "Tuesday"? Personally, I had decided that pp.1-6 were the ones that were in error -- making them a "Monday", and thus eliminating the implied Sunday classes in X #135 ("three days" prior to the Riot) -- but if you assume that pp.7-9 are wrong, and are a "Thursday", then yes, one week would separate pp.7-9 from pp.10-14. Is that what you did?

Either way, Prof. X's obvious depression in UX #435 fits perfectly into this time period of New X-Men...

> If you go along with this basic order, I've worked up a calendar that incorporates it into a May-June timeline involving New X-Men, Uncanny X-Men, X-Treme X-Men, Mystique, New Mutants, X-Statix, and Weapon X.

Ye gods, man. All right, hit me.


Random X-crap on my mind:

Is it possible to place the Cyclops appearances in ASM2 #57-58 and ASM #500 in his "missing period" between X #141-142, by virtue of the fact that in ASM2 #57, it's almost summer vacation -- just as it is in X #138-141?

Also, upcoming preview pages from UX #437 seem to indicate that Archangel and Husk are breaking up. If this is true, then Weapon X's current "Defection" arc, where Chamber becomes violently jealous over Husk's flirtation with Archangel, needs to occur before UX #437. Just giving you a heads-up...

Hey, and happy holidays, everyone.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: More X-chronology reshuffling needed
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 20, 2003 at 15:02:10:
In Reply to: Re: More X-chronology reshuffling needed 
posted by Jeph! on December 20, 2003 at 01:11:52:

> > > UX #429-436 need to occur in the gap(s) we'd previously identified in X #138-145. The "riot" reference in #422 can still refer to the Shi'Ar invasion, keeping UX #417-427 in the fall and keeping Heather's pregnancy timing right.

> > Actually, UX 422-427 can occur the previous fall, and a big gap can separate UX 427 and 429.

> That's ... what I just said. ;-)

Yup. Just confirming it by *sigh* disregarding those "few weeks" references in UX 429-430.

> > I think a temporal reference or two are going to have to be sacrificed to make everything work anyway.

> One horrible day, I'm going to remind you that you said this. One horrible day, oh yes...

Or one glorious day, depending on your viewpoint. But hey, I've had to dismiss some temporal references before. No new development here. When did we ever tackled a project in which ALL temporal references worked out?

> > I would suggest placing UX 429-436 (both "Draco" and "Trial of Juggernaut" stories) during the week that must exist between pages 9 and 10 of X 138.

> Why exactly did we decide that a week "must" separate these two pages? Pp.7-9 are labelled "Tuesday", and Pp. 10-14 are labelled "Thursday". Seems to me that either 2 or 9 days separate these pages.

> Or, were you using the issue's mistake that pp.1-6, labelled "Wednesday", are also listed as "yesterday" on pp.7-9, which are labelled "Tuesday"? Personally, I had decided that pp.1-6 were the ones that were in error -- making them a "Monday", and thus eliminating the implied Sunday classes in X #135 ("three days" prior to the Riot) -- but if you assume that pp.7-9 are wrong, and are a "Thursday", then yes, one week would separate pp.7-9 from pp.10-14. Is that what you did?

That's exactly what I did. And we've all established that the class schedule at Xavier's is a bit unorthodox.

> Either way, Prof. X's obvious depression in UX #435 fits perfectly into this time period of New X-Men...

> > If you go along with this basic order, I've worked up a calendar that incorporates it into a May-June timeline involving New X-Men, Uncanny X-Men, X-Treme X-Men, Mystique, New Mutants, X-Statix, and Weapon X.

> Ye gods, man. All right, hit me.

It's coming.

The other thing I've had to ignore (aside from the "few weeks" references in UX 429-430) is the strong implication in NM2 7 that a bunch of time has passed since NM2 6. Right now I'm forced to ignore those autumn trees (no biggie) and Josh Foley's reference to not having written his parents since coming to Xavier's (suggesting a bunch of time has passed) and his reference to NM2 6 as having occurred "this summer" (when I have it as just days before and not quite summer yet).

I'll make one last pass-through of the order of events and post the May-June X-calendar.

> 
> Random X-crap on my mind:

> Is it possible to place the Cyclops appearances in ASM2 #57-58 and ASM #500 in his "missing period" between X #141-142, by virtue of the fact that in ASM2 #57, it's almost summer vacation -- just as it is in X #138-141?

You betcha. That's right where those Spidey issues are in the May-June X-calendar I'll submit soon. Hopefully they jibe with what Antonio is preparing for Spidey's revised chronology.


> Also, upcoming preview pages from UX #437 seem to indicate that Archangel and Husk are breaking up. If this is true, then Weapon X's current "Defection" arc, where Chamber becomes violently jealous over Husk's flirtation with Archangel, needs to occur before UX #437. Just giving you a heads-up...

No problem. I've got the current Weapon X story happening during the "three days" that separate UX 434 and 435. I just hope the Weapon X story can remain contained within that time period and that Juggie doesn't turn up.


> Hey, and happy holidays, everyone.

Thanks, and happy holidays to you too, Jeph, and to all you chronologists out there.

--Paul

			*	*	*

New X-chronology: May-June calendar
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 20, 2003 at 15:54:40:
In Reply to: More X-chronology reshuffling needed 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 18, 2003 at 22:21:21:

Okay. I'm sure I've overlooked something, but it's time for me to get this out to Jeph and you other X-philes for review. Hopefully I'm somewhere close to the mark on this. Note that it's still a work in progress, as we're dealing with several ongoing storylines, but I hope I've left enough space for those stories to play themselves out (and that the writers don't throw more continuity challenges in the way -- hah).


Saturday, May 3
X-STATIX #13 (1-10)
One day, years after XS 13-FB (1/2p3). Henrietta Hunters spirit inhabits a corpse and alters its appearance to look like herself. This news immediately spreads and Spike Freeman gets X-Statix to fetch her for the team. Once at X-Statix headquarters, the team makes her feel unwelcome and she bolts for Lacunas TV talk show. Xavier is shown here standing, so this story must occur before X 146 (and thus before X 142); it is likely before Xavier announces his intention to step down as headmaster in X 138 (10-14). 

Sunday, May 4
X-STATIX #13 (11-17)
Perhaps the day after SX 13 (4-10). After a foiled attempt on Henriettas life, Spike makes her part of X-Statix and the team expresses its displeasure with Spikes unilateral decision. Spike then signs a deal with those who want Henrietta dead to set up a battle between X-Statix and a group of super-powered Euro-Trash.

Monday, May 5
X-STATIX #13 (18-21)
Perhaps the day after XS 13 (11-17). While in New York to attend the opening of the new X-Statix megastore, X-Statix are attacked by the Euro-Trash and Spider-Man joins the fray. It appears to be warm in Manhattan.
X-STATIX #14 (1-19)
The same day as XS 13 (18-21). X-Statix and Spidey battle the Euro-Trash, who retreat inside the store and hold Henrietta hostage. X-Statix leave the scene, but after Doop shows them how Spike Freemans been manipulating them, the team ties him up and returns to destroy the Euro-Trash and free Henrietta. Spidey kind of gets lost in the shuffle. At a follow-up press conference, Henrietta announces she intends to use X-Statix to continue her charitable work and to change the teams costumes. Xavier appears.
NEW MUTANTS #4 (1)
One day. David tells his parents that he is thinking of taking another course  a summer class  at the University of Chicago.

Tuesday, May 6
X-TREME X-MEN #25
One day. It is probably a weekday during the college year. Given Kurts conversation with Logan in W3 6, it appears that W3 6 must occur before this issue. In freeing Stryker from incarceration, Deathstrike makes it appear that Stryker was killed in an airplane explosion by the X-Men. We see snow in the Rockies and green trees in Kentucky, where Cannonball has invited Storm, Bishop, Sage, and Wolverine (sans goatee). The X-Men investigate the site of the plane crash. Kitty sees her school psychologist, and that night, she is abducted from the Belles of Hell by Deathstrike and Stryker.
X-TREME X-MEN #26
The same day as XX 25. The X-Treme team battle Strykers troops in the snowy Rockies and take captives as they try to figure out what Stryker is up to. Stryker tries to break Kittys will, but fails. Deathstrike is forced to try to kill Stryker by the man who runs Mount Haven, who views Stryker as a threat. Stryker escapes with Kitty in hand.
X-TREME X-MEN #27 (1-13)
The same night as XX 26. Shadowcat phases cross-country as the earth as it spins on its axis, causing Storm to lose control in the Rockies, creating a blizzard and undoing all the good work....accomplished these past months in physical therapy. Waning crescent moon.

Wednesday, May 7
X-TREME X-MEN #27 (14-23)
The day after XX 27 (1-13). Kitty finds herself in Mt. Haven, where we see green grass and trees and warm weather.
X-TREME X-MEN #28
The same day as XX 27 (14-23). Stryker and Deathstrike defeat Kitty and the X-Treme team at Mt. Haven, where we see green trees and warm weather. Cannonball vows to save the day.
X-TREME X-MEN #29
The same day as XX 28. Cannonball fights Deathstrike after she seemingly kills Logan, then he faces a brainwashed Storm. Bishop faces a brainwashed Sage. Stryker shows Kitty the truth behind Mt. Haven, then strikes her and Reverend Paul down. Green grass and trees and warm weather in Washington state.
X-TREME X-MEN #30
The same day as XX 29. Logan recovers and many of Mt. Havens nannite-infested residents die when Paul is out of commission. Stryker and Kitty discover that Paul is a cybernetic sentient and Stryker sacrifices his freedom to keep Paul contained. That night in Chicago, the X-Men hang at the Belles of Hell and Kitty considers running for alderman in a municipal election this fall. Green grass and trees in Washington state.

Thursday, May 8
X-STATIX #12 (1-10)
One day. Dead Girl becomes a fashion model and faces protesters while her teammates start a mission on the India/Pakistan border. Tike fetches Dead Girl for the mission and finds her at X-Statix morgue, where they encounter a mortician with necrophilia. Green grass and trees in California.
NEW X-MEN #134 (1-2) 
One rainy night. Mutant designer Jumbo Carnation dies in Alphabet City. This event is noted as having occurred the other night in X 135 (1-14).

Friday, May 9
NEW X-MEN #134 (3-22)
The day after X 134 (1-2). Logan is not at Xaviers (he may have just left the X-Treme team after XX 30). Reference is made to Jean being in Hong Kong and expected home soon after being away for a while; however, it seems Jean may run into unexpected delays, as she doesnt make it back home until X 138 (16-23). We see green grass and autumn leaves in Westchester and there is a reference to it being late summerwhich must be topical. 
X-STATIX #12 (11-22)
The day after XS 12 (1-10). The morticians daughter goes on a shooting spree at her high school and ends up being shot dead by police. Dead Girl kills the mortician to protect the daughter and X-Statix finishes its work in Asia. Green grass and trees in California.

Saturday, May 10
X-STATIX #13 (1-10)
One day, years after XS 13-FB (1/2p3). Henrietta Hunters spirit inhabits a corpse and alters its appearance to look like herself. This news immediately spreads and Spike Freeman gets X-Statix to fetch her for the team. Once at X-Statix headquarters, the team makes her feel unwelcome and she bolts for Lacunas TV talk show. Xavier is shown here standing, so this story must occur before X 146 (and thus before X 142); it is likely before Xavier announces his intention to step down as headmaster in X 138 (10-14). 

Sunday, May 11
X-STATIX #13 (11-17)
Perhaps the day after SX 13 (4-10). After a foiled attempt on Henriettas life, Spike makes her part of X-Statix and the team expresses its displeasure with Spikes unilateral decision. Spike then signs a deal with those who want Henrietta dead to set up a battle between X-Statix and a group of super-powered Euro-Trash.
NEW X-MEN #135 (1-14)
A school day at Xaviers. Xavier notes that he is opening the doors to the Institute to non-mutants in three days time. Since X 138 labels Open Day a Wednesday, this then must be a Sunday; X 121 establishes that Xaviers doesnt hold to traditional human school practices, so there may very well be Sunday classes. Quentin Quire has changed considerably in recent weeks. Quire refers to the murder of Jumbo Carnation in X 134 (1-2) as having occurred the other night. Glob Herman probably appears here after UX 416. We see green grass and trees in Westchester and its seasonable enough for Xorns Special Class (which is convening for the first time) to go camping. Because of its special nature, Xorns class may not follow the traditional semester. High on kick, Quentin Quire and his Omega Gang assault a group of mutant-hating youths.

Monday, May 12
NEW X-MEN #135 (15-22)
The day after X 135 (1-14). Xavier discusses the Quire situation telepathically with his X-Men, including Jean, who is still in Hong Kong, and Logan, who isnt necessarily at Xaviers. Xorn continues the camping trip with the Special Class. Green grass and trees.
X-STATIX #13 (18-21)
Perhaps the day after XS 13 (11-17). While in New York to attend the opening of the new X-Statix megastore, X-Statix are attacked by the Euro-Trash and Spider-Man joins the fray. It appears to be warm in Manhattan.
X-STATIX #14 (1-19)
The same day as XS 13 (18-21). X-Statix and Spidey battle the Euro-Trash, who retreat inside the store and hold Henrietta hostage. X-Statix leave the scene, but after Doop shows them how Spike Freemans been manipulating them, the team ties him up and returns to destroy the Euro-Trash and free Henrietta. Spidey kind of gets lost in the shuffle. At a follow-up press conference, Henrietta announces she intends to use X-Statix to continue her charitable work and to change the teams costumes.

Tuesday, May 13
NEW X-MEN #136 (1-21)
The night of the day after X 135 (15-22). The Omega Gang attacks a group of U-Men, and a squad of U-Men attacks the Special Class, who are still on the camping trip. Beak and Angel have sex, apparently for the first time, given the dialog. Xorn defeats the U-Men and the class is taken back to Xaviers school, where the Omega Gang capture Xavier. It is before a Friday. Green grass and trees.

Wednesday, May 14
NEW X-MEN #136 (22)
The morning after X 136 (1-21). It is Open Day at Xaviers, the day that Xavier has invited non-mutants to tour the school for possible enrollment, perhaps for the semester following this. The Omega Gang begin their attack on the school. According to XX 24, this issue occurs after XX 23. Green grass and trees in Westchester.
NEW X-MEN #137
The same day as X 136 (22). Wolverine is back at Xaviers, sporting a goatee once more. The X-Men battle the Omega Gang. In the end, Quentin Quire is defeated and Sophie of the Stepford Cuckoos is killed. Green grass and trees in Westchester.
NEW X-MEN #138 (1-6)
The same day as X 137. The X-Men deal with the aftermath of the Omega Gangs riot on a Wednesday. Green grass and trees in Westchester.

Thursday, May 15
NEW X-MEN #138 (7-9)
It is presumably a Tuesday, six days after X 138 (1-6), but Emma mentions that Sophie died yesterday, making this segment the day after X 137, a Thursday. The remaining Stepford Cuckoos announce that they will depart Xaviers after the upcoming prize-giving ceremony and walk out on Emma; this notice may be months in advance  the Cuckoos may intend to stick it out for the rest of the school year, then transfer to an exclusive school that may not have openings until the summer. Emma notes that she is twenty-seven; this would make her a teenager at the time of her debut in UX 129. Green grass and trees in Westchester.
X-STATIX #14 (20-22)
One day. It is probably a few days after XS 14 (1-19)  long enough for Henrietta to get lots of fan mail, design new costumes, and raise awareness and money for various causes, but no too long, as Spike Freeman is still trussed up in his bathrobe. With Henriettas Q-rating outstripping the rest of the team and demands for her to become team leader, X-Statix decide that she must die.

Friday, May 16
UNCANNY X-MEN #429
One day. It must be more than a few weeks after UX 422. It is some time after UX 406 (1-21). One early morning, Nightcrawler inexplicably jets off from Westchester and as Xavier prepares to send a team after him, he has an altercation with Juggernaut and a restrained Polaris spouts off at Annie. Several hours later, the X-Men arrive at Isla des Demonas, where they find Kurt participating in a strange ritual. We see a full moon and green grass and trees at Xaviers and bathing suit weather off Florida.
UNCANNY X-MEN #430
The same day as UX 429. It must be more than a few weeks after UX 422. Sammy is abused by his father at his home in Vancouver, where we see green trees. Xorn wants to put Carter in his special class (and reveals some Magneto-like thoughts). Xavier and Annie explore Lornas mind to find the reason for her recent behavior. The X-Men are attacked by demonic creatures as they try to rescue Kurt from Isla des Demonas, Iceman is blown to bits, and the group is engulfed in a powerful telepathic blast.
UNCANNY X-MEN #431
The same day as UX 429. Polaris shows Xavier and Annie her experience in Genosha. Juggernaut and Northstar jet to Vancouver (where we see green trees) to see Sammy. The X-Men battle demon-like creatures. Mystique emerges from Abyss dimensional hole, having been trapped in there since UX 406.
UNCANNY X-MEN #432
The same day as UX 431. Given Xorn has not yet revealed is identity in UX 430 and Xavier is still walking here, this issue must occur before X 146; indeed, since Scott is still with the X-Men, this issue must occur before X 139 (1-20).
UNCANNY X-MEN #433
The same day as UX 432. Juggernauts battle with Alpha Flight results in the accidental injury of Sammys mother. Nightcrawler learns from Azazel the truth behind his teleportation power, and when Xavier, Annie, and Lorna arrive at La Isla des Demonas to search for Carter, Polaris opens a portal to Azazels dimension. Green trees in Vancouver.
UNCANNY X-MEN #434
The same day as UX 433. It is three days before UX 435 (1-18). Seeing what his battle has wrought, Juggernaut gives up the fight with Alpha Flight. Iceman re-forms, Kurt battles Azazel, and the X-Men, Carter, Mystique, Abyss, and Kiwi Black escape from Azazels dimension, with Polaris help. Given Xorn has not yet revealed is identity in UX 430 and Xavier is still walking there, this issue must occur before X 146; indeed, since Scott is still with the X-Men in UX 429, this issue must occur before X 139 (1-20). Mystique must appear here before MYS 1 (9-23). Green grass and trees in Vancouver and Westchester.

Saturday, May 17
X-STATIX #15 (3-11)
One day, some years after XS 15-FB (1-2). As random sniper attacks claim lives throughout the country, Henrietta Hunter takes a break in the Caribbean after all the chat-shows and merchandising deals. X-Statix appear on the scene to kill her, but Lacuna makes the team think twice about that course of action. Green trees in Florida.
WEAPON X v2 #15
One day. Having trouble adjusting to Paiges relationship with Warren, Chamber causes trouble in a Manhattan bar. The X-Men try to talk him down, but when Jono lashes out at them, they subdue him and hand him over to the authorities. Hours later, Brent Jackson shows up in Chambers prison cell to offer him a place in Weapon X. Cyclops must appear here before he runs off in X 139 (1-20); so this story likely occurs before X 138 (10-14). We see green grass and trees and warm picnic weather at Xaviers; the autumn leaves must be topical.

Sunday, May 18
X-STATIX #15 (12-18)
Perhaps the day after XS 15 (3-11). X-Statix hope to rid themselves of Henrietta while on a mission in Afghanistan, but Phat ends up saving her life and El Guapo loses his legs.

Monday, May 19
X-STATIX #15 (19-20) 
Perhaps the day after XS 15 (12-18). The random shootings continue and Henrietta decides to stop the killing.
UNCANNY X-MEN #435 (1-18)
One day, three days after UX 434. Among the recent events Xavier mentions in this issue is a student uprising, so this story must occur after X 138 (1-6). Juggernaut is incarcerated at a high-tech Canadian facility and Jennifer Walters reviews his case as his attorney. As counsel confers with Xavier (sans wheelchair), Kurt, Warren, Bobby, and Paige, the Rhino (being subjected to some kind of experiment here sometime after his apprehension in PPSM2 50) attempts to bust out of the facility. In the melee that ensues, Cain is accidentally released from his bonds and battles and defeats Rhino, then he passes up an opportunity to flee and instead surrenders to a facility guard. Green grass and trees in Vancouver.

Tuesday, May 20
UNCANNY X-MEN #435 (19-20)
Probably the day after UX 435 (1-18), judging by the fact that people from pages 1-18 are now wearing different clothes. Cains surrender and the situation with the Rhino result in a reduced sentence for Cain and his release from the Canadian facility. Cain and Jennifer become friendly.
X-STATIX #15 (21-22)
Perhaps the day after XS 15 (19-20). At a press conference, Henrietta announces that she will stop the random killings by accepting the position of Secretary of Homeland Defense. Green trees in Washington, DC.

Wednesday, May 21
UNCANNY X-MEN #435 (21-23)
The morning after UX 435 (19-20). Cain and Jen are in bed after having spent the night together in a locale with green grass and trees. A figure looking like Juggernaut appears outside their room.
UNCANNY X-MEN #436
The same day as UX 435 (21-23). Given that A3 65 leads to Jens mass destruction of property in A3 73-75 and the fact that she holds that kind of destruction against Juggernaut in UX 435, this story probably occurs before A3 65. Because Xavier is walking here, and because the list of things he relates as overwhelming in UX 435 does not include Magnetos destruction of the school, this story must occur before X 142.

Thursday, May 22
NEW X-MEN #138 (10-14)
A Thursday. Xorn helps Quentin Quire cast off his physical body and achieve another plane of existence; it is not known how long Quire may have spent at Xaviers in a catatonic state, but it is presumed that this is the Thursday of the week following X 138 (7-9). Xavier notes that the school will be closing for the summer in exactly six days  this may be the date that all students who attend Xaviers during the regular academic year should be gone; as we see in NM2, the school does remain open for relatively few students in the summer. He also notes that after the break, he will step down as headmaster. It is likely that this segment occurs after WX2 15, given Cyclops appearance in that issue. Green grass and trees in Westchester.

Friday, May 23
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN v2 #57 (8-23)
The rainy early morning after ASM2 57 (1-7). Spider-Man joins the Fantastic Four (Reeds and Sues costumes are mismatched color-wise, but they both conform to the design introduced in FF3 40), Iron Man (in an armor not seen elsewhere), and Thor (in classic costume, probably after the Reigning, given that he appears in PPSM2 53 during the Asgard-over-Manhattan storyline) in a battle with the Mindless Ones in Manhattan. Dr. Strange shows up too late to prevent the return of Dormammu.
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN v2 #58
The same early morning as ASM2 57. As the heroes battle the Mindless Ones, Strange attempts to destroy Dormammu, but in the process he and Spidey end up in a plane outside of time and space and Spidey witnesses scenes from the past and future.
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #500
The same day as ASM2 58. Led by Strange, Spidey battles his way through time to end up moments before the arrival of Dormammu and saves the day, helping the heroes drive the Mindless Ones back to their dimension. Reed is not disfigured, so this story should occur before FF3 68 (1p1). Cyclops probably appears here before X 138 (16-23). It is Peters birthday (so this story should occur at the same time of year as S-M 21), and Strange gives him a present  five minutes to speak to Uncle Ben, whos been snatched out of time. We see a full moon, and M.J. mentions the moonlight specifically.
NEW MUTANTS v2 #1 (10-25)
One school day. Rejected on her sixteenth birthday by her father and her classmates, Sofia Mantega destroys one of her fathers supermarkets and is thrown in jail. Dani Moonstar shows up to take Sofia to Xaviers, which is publicly known as a school for mutants with bad publicity, a clue that this segment occurs after the riot in X 138 (1-6). It is clear that Dani does not live at Xaviers, but rather in Colorado. It is a Friday in May. We see green grass and trees in Boulder.
NEW X-MEN #138 (15)
The day after X 138 (10-14), a Friday. Emma Frost goes clothes shopping with Angel. According to X 140, this segment occurs a few days before X 139 (21-22).

Saturday, May 24
NEW X-MEN #138 (16-23)
The day after X 138 (15), a Saturday. We see a prize-giving ceremony at Xaviers  this is a year-end ceremony that probably occurs between the end of the spring session and the beginning of the summer session shown in NM2 2. Angel informs Beak that shes pregnant with his child; this revelation so soon after their apparent first sexual encounter in X 136 (1-21) is an indication that Angels physiology is radically different from a normal humans; this is confirmed by Beaks statement in X 141 that there is a life cycle of, like, only five days between the sex and the birth, but this doesnt mean that Angels pregnancy lasts only that long  it cant be less than five days after X 136 (1-21), given the other temporal references in this run of issues. That night, Jean Grey returns to Xaviers with Dust, who she may have retrieved after Dust spent some time in India after X 133. Jean finds Scott and Emma in a compromising situation; this segment probably occurs after ASM 500. That Jean is fetching mutants for Xaviers may be a clue that this segment occurs before NM2 2, where Dani gets the job of recruiter. Green grass and trees in Westchester.
NEW X-MEN #139 (1-20)
The same night as X 138 (16-23). An angry Jean mucks around with Emmas mind and the X-Men grow concerned about Jeans Phoenix power. Cyclops takes off. The Stepford Cuckoos state that school is over for the summer, implying that, while the school itself is to close on the upcoming Wednesday, classes are already over. We see green grass and trees at Xaviers.

Sunday, May 25

Monday, May 26: Memorial Day
NEW MUTANTS v2 #2
One day shortly after NM2 1 (10-25)  at least long enough for a train ride from Colorado to New York; it is unlikely that NM2 1 (10-25) occurred yesterday, as noted in this issue. NM2 2-FB is noted as having occurred last year, although this may be a reference to last school year. Dani and Sofia arrive at Xaviers, where they meet Professor X, who notes that it is the start of the summer session and that some students have gone home for the summer. This is an indication that this issue occurs after the prize-giving ceremony in X 138 (16-23). The fact that some students remain for classes appears to contradict the statement in X 138 (10-14) that the school would close for the summer. Xavier is still here, apparently before the time he planned to leave the school, as noted in X 138 (10-14). Dani is no longer a teenager, but it wasnt long ago that she was. Dani arranges for Sofia to room with Laurie Collins and agrees to be Xaviers recruiter  presumably after Jeans assumption of that role through X 138 (16-23). Northstar appears here. Green grass and trees and jacket weather at Xaviers.

Tuesday, May 27
NEW X-MEN #139 (21-22)
One night. According to X 140, this segment occurs a few days after X 138 (15). Beast finds Emmas diamond body smashed to pieces.

Wednesday, May 28
NEW X-MEN #140 (1-14)
The day after X 139 (21-22). It is sometime after XX 23 (17-22). Summer vacation is cancelled until further notice, while Bishop and Sage are called in to investigate Emma Frosts murder. That summer vacation reference may be for the benefit of those students who havent yet left for the summer; I have summer classes actually having just started (in NM2 2) by this time. Late this day, the Stepford Cuckoos note that school ought to have closed for summer by now (at least for those who dont take summer classes), so it is likely that this is the day the school was scheduled to close, six days after X 138 (10-14). Scott is still absent and Nightcrawler is here. Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

Thursday, May 29
NEW X-MEN #140 (15-22)
The day after X 140 (1-14). Bishop and Sage continue their investigation, and Angels brood of larvae are discovered.
NEW X-MEN #141
The same day as X 140 (15-22). Angels brood hatches. The X-Men discover that Angel and Beak were set up to take the fall for Emmas murder by Esme and a partner whose identity remains unknown, as Esme mindwipes Bishop and Sage to escape. Phoenix fuses Emmas diamond pieces back together, allowing Emmas disembodied spirit to return to her body. The missing Scott is now the prime suspect. Although not shown, presumably the lockdown at Xaviers is lifted at this point, and Xavier may relieve Bishop and Sage of their services. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. Esme makes another reference to summer.

Friday, May 30
NEW MUTANTS v2 #3 (1-19)
One day. While Magma lays in a coma (where shes been since just after UX 423), Dani recruits a mutant with decaying power in Atlanta, where we see green grass and trees. School is in session, both at Xaviers (where Beast is teaching as part of summer session) and at a public high school (its not summer vacation yet, and it cant be a holiday), where student Kevin Ford hasnt reported for the last two days. There is a reference to finals at the high school, and Dani claims to represent a summer program. We see short sleeves at Xaviers.

Saturday, May 31
NEW MUTANTS v2 #3 (20-22)
The day after NM2 3 (1-19). Kevin Ford is examined at Xaviers and Xavier reveals the comatose Magma to Dani, who is wearing the same clothes she wore the previous day  an indication that this scene may occur in the wee hours of the morning after NM2 3 (1-19), technically the next day.
NEW MUTANTS v2 #4 (2-11)
One day. This segment may well occur the same day as NM2 3 (20-22). Xavier sends Dani (in a change of clothing from NM2 3) to Chicago to recruit David Alleyne, who turns out to be an acquaintance of Karma. (It must be after the lockdown from X 140-141 has been lifted.) Shan graduates from the University of Chicago, where we see light clothing and a commencement ceremony. Xavier checks up on Magma, who is still in a coma. Kevin Ford is given a clean bill of health; it may be quite a while after his arrival at Xaviers, given the comment, Its about time we got you into class. Green grass and trees and light clothing at Xaviers. Shan notes that summer session starts Monday.

Sunday, June 1
X-STATIX #16 (1-3)
One day, long enough after XS 15 (12-18) for El Guapo to recover from the loss of his legs. As the random killings continue, Henrietta introduces new X-Statix costumes. Her photo is taken for the Time Magazine cover seen in XS 16 (4-).

Monday, June 2
NEW MUTANTS v2 #4 (12-24)
The Monday after NM2 4 (2-11). It is the first day of class during summer session at the University of Chicago. David is outed as a mutant and decides to accompany Dani back to Xaviers. Shan and her siblings decide to join them. Green grass and trees in Chicago.
NEW MUTANTS v2 #5 (1-4)
Probably the same night as NM2 4 (12-24). Donald Pierce has a meeting of the Reavers, now a group of mutant-hating humans. Among their recruits is Josh Foley. Sofias father is in New York on business and wants no contact with his daughter.

Tuesday, June 3
NEW MUTANTS v2 #5 (5-24)
The day after NM2 5 (1-4). Logan instructs a class in self- defense at the Institute, while Xavier offers Shan a job there. Shan suggests that her siblings get the summer off before returning to school and Xavier notes that things are fairly quiet during the summer. Dani and Shan take Sofia, Laurie, Kevin, and David into Manhattan and the four kids are lured into an ambush by the Reavers, with Laurie getting critically wounded. Green grass and trees at Xaviers.
NEW MUTANTS v2 #6
The same day as NM2 5. Josh uses his healing power to save Laurie and Shan arrives and chases off the Reavers. Kevin uses his death touch on Pierce and Dani stops him from killing the cyborg by using her illusion power. Pierce is taken into custody and the kids return to Xaviers, where we see green grass and trees. Josh returns home, but is spurned by friends and family as a mutant and, with nowhere else to go, arrives at Xaviers. Frightened by his actions, Kevin leaves Xaviers and Dani decides to quit, branding herself a failure as a teacher. But Shan, Xavier, and the remaining kids convince her to stay. Since Xavier is walking here, this segment must occur before X 146 and thus probably before X 142.

Wednesday, June 4
NEW MUTANTS v2 #7  FB
One school day at Xaviers, sometime between NM2 6 and NM2 7 (1-15). Josh Foley attends classes taught by Warren Worthington, Dani Moonstar, and Shan Coy Manh. Xaviers school is whole and functioning, so this story must occur before X 142, the beginning of the story that leads to the destruction of the school.
X-STATIX #16 (4-7)
One day, long enough after XS 16 (1-3) for Time Magazine to publish Henriettas photo. Henrietta hopes to stumble upon the random killers.

Thursday, June 5
X-STATIX #16 (8-9)
One day. Henrietta tries to get the dead to help her find the random killers, but Dead Girl blocks her attempt.
NEW MUTANTS v2 #7 (1-15)
One school day at Xaviers, where we see green grass and autumn leaves (which must be topical). This segment occurs some days before XX 34. Josh Foley writes home about his life at Xaviers (he mentions classes with Hank McCoy, Emma Frost, and Tom Corsi). He notes that he hasnt written since coming to Xaviers (implying a while has passed) and that he saved Lauries life this summer, more clues that some time has passed since NM2 6, but given Xaviers chronology, this story is more likely to occur very shortly after NM2 6. Josh uses his healing power to jump-start Magmas brain, lifting her out of her coma. Unfortunately, when she awakens she blasts a big hole in the school and runs away.

Friday, June 6
NEW MUTANTS v2 #7 (16-18)
The day after NM2 7 (1-15). It is two weeks before NM2 7 (19-22). With Jean and Northstar present, Xavier gives Josh detention for his reckless act of the day before. We see green grass and the last of autumn leaves falling from bare trees at Xaviers.
X-STATIX #16 (10-14)
One day. The random killings have been going on for a few weeks, and Henrietta is held accountable for the lack of progress in apprehending the killers. Lacuna makes a pass at Guy and is rebuffed, then she receives documents that would destroy Spike Freemans reputation.
X-TREME X-MEN #31 (1-2) 
One night. In Los Angeles, Cutter, Porous, Dervish and company cause a car accident in which a girl named Marie is seriously injured. Mention is made of the state championship for cheerleading.

Saturday, June 7
X-STATIX #16 (15-22)
One day. Lacuna tells Guy about the documents she received and how they would implicate not only Spike, but Edie as well. Guy confronts Spike about it and ends up killing him. Guy catches up to Lacuna, who gets shot by the sniper, Mister Code. Green grass and trees in Washington, DC and California, where it is warm enough for outdoor swimming.
X-STATIX #17
The same day as XS 16 (15-22). Because Henrietta is Secretary of Homeland Defense, it is likely that this story occurs before IM3 73, the storyline that leads to Tony Starks bid for Secretary of Defense.
X-TREME X-MEN #31 (3-22)
Probably the day after XX 31 (1-2). A Genoshan survivor slays a group of black marketeers in east Africa, and Marie recovers in a Los Angeles hospital. Val Cooper gives a presentation on the mutant threat at the presidential ranch in Texas, where Storm and Remy are undercover and we see green grass and trees and a barbecue; it is unclear whether the president appears here before or after X 150 (1-31). On assignment for the L.A. Division of X-Corp, Bishop and Sage deal with a dangerous mutant, then the duo check in on Rogue and the new life shes adopted in L.A., where we see green grass and trees as well. That night, they go to a club and meet up with Sam, Lila Cheney, and an anti-mutant terrorist with a bomb.
X-TREME X-MEN #32 (1-17) 
The same night as XX 31 (3-22). This segment is referred to as having occurred the other night in XX 33 (5-13). Sam removes the terrorist from the club, then takes off with Lila. Rogue apprehends the terrorist, Marie Dancanto. Storm and Remy blow their cover at the presidential ranch. Green grass and trees in L.A and Texas. Full moon.
X-TREME X-MEN #33 (14-16)
The same night as XX 32 (1-17). At the presidential compound, Storm outlines her plan for diffusing the growing rift between human and mutant. As it picks up right from the scene in Texas in XX 32, this scene must occur out of sequence from the rest of this issue because more time passes in the Marie Dancanto storyline. From the conversation, it appears obvious that this segment occurs before X 142, the storyline that leads to Magnetos victory. Green trees and warm weather in Texas. Full moon.

Sunday, June 8
X-TREME X-MEN #32 (18-23)
The morning after XX 32 (1-17). Marie Dancanto tells Rogue her story of hatred for mutants.

Monday, June 9
X-TREME X-MEN #33 (1, 3-4)
Perhaps the day after XX 32 (18-23)  enough time has to have passed for groups of people to organize support of and opposition to Marie Dancanto, who appears in court to plead not guilty to her attempted suicide bombing in XX 32 (1-17).
MYSTIQUE #1 (1-8)
One night. It must be a weeknight, as Charles Xavier appears on Nightline. Jean is at Xaviers. We learn that Xavier has covert operatives in the world and that one has been killed on a mission.

Tuesday, June 10
MYSTIQUE #1 (9-23)
The early morning after MYS 1 (1-8). At 2:54 AM, Xavier arrives at Forges apartment in Baltimore to ask him to find Mystique. From the dialogue, it appears that Xavier and Forge have been out of touch for quite a while, an indication that this segment occurs quite a while after Forges attendance at the wedding in UX 425 (17-23). At 3:12 AM, Mystique is on a mission in Washington DC. She must appear here following the Draco storyline in UX 433.
MYSTIQUE #2
The same early morning as MYS 1 (9-23). At 3:27 AM, Forge discovers the whereabouts of Mystique, who is captured by government agents at 3:29 AM. At 4:36 AM, the captive Mystique awakens in a DHS flying justice unit, where she faces Johnny Kitano, a mutant whose mission is to eliminate mutant threats to the government. Mystique is rescued by Xavier, who is disguised as Magneto. Full moon. 
MYSTIQUE #3
The same day as MYS 2. Xavier and Forge send Mystique to Cuba on a clandestine mission to destroy two mutant-killing robots. Once there, she meets her handler, Shortpack. Green vegetation in New York.
MYSTIQUE #4
The same day as MYS 3. Mystique insinuates her way to Luis Disovil, the man who purchased the Sentinels and is conducting experiments on Cuban mutants. She assumes his identity, only to face a band of freedom fighters, led by Lazaro Rivera.
MYSTIQUE #5
The same night as MYS 4. Mystique sides with the freedom fighters and battles Disovils soldiers. She finds the kidnapped children, only to learn that she must kill Lazaros little sister Evangelina to stop the Sentinels.
MYSTIQUE #6 (1-15)
The same night as MYS 5. Lazaro kills Evangelina and kills himself. Mystique, the rebels, and the freed mutants evacuate Disovils base before the Sentinels destoy it. Mystique reports back to Shortpack.
X-TREME X-MEN #33 (5-13)
Perhaps the day after XX 33 (3-4). XX 32 (1-17) is referred to as having occurred the other night. Rogue has a nightmare early this morning, then the X-Corp lawyer shows up to try to talk Rogue and Sam (who has returned with Lila), who he believes to be baseline human, into selling Rogues home. Lila ports Bishop to New York.
X-TREME X-MEN #33 (17-23)
The same night as XX 33 (5-13). Rogue and Sam attack Cutter, Porous, Dervish and company at their beach hangout while Sage arrives at X-Corp Los Angeles, which she discovers is the employer of the lawyer. Full moon.

Wednesday, June 11
MYSTIQUE #6 (16-22)
The morning after MYS 6 (1-15). At 12:31 am, Mystique is asked to be a double agent by a man in a bar in Santiago de Cuba. Later that morning (the next morning), Mystique arrives at her safehouse in Brooklyn, where Xavier congratulates her on a job well done. Green vegetation in Brooklyn.
X-TREME X-MEN #34
Probably the day after XX 33 (17-23). It is some days after NM2 7 (1-15). Magma arrives in L.A. and she and Sam visit Roberto at X-Corp. The charges against Cutter, Porous, Dervish, and company are dismissed in court, an indication that its a weekday. That night, Rogue fights Revenant and Manacle and tails them back to X-Corp, where she confronts Roberto. Green trees in southern California. Full moon.
X-TREME X-MEN #35 (1-22)
The same night as XX 34. Roberto uses X-Corp employees Skitz and Stringfellow to keep Rogue and Sam occupied while he and Amara investigate X-Corps link to the shady deals in Valle Soleada. Elias Bogan, who is calling the shots behind the scenes, sends Cutter, Porous and Dervish against Rogue and Sam, but they are defeated. Vazhin informs Storm that the government has provisionally accepted her proposal to form the XSE strike force, but first she and Remy must infiltrate a mutant gladiator arena run by Tullemore Voge in Tokyo. Green grass and trees in California and Texas. Full moon.

Thursday, June 12
X-TREME X-MEN #35 (23)
One day, shortly after XX 35 (1-22). Roberto holds a press conference, Marie apologizes to Rogue, and Sage and Bishop look into Elias Bogan.
X-TREME X-MEN #36  FB (2-6)
The same evening as XX 35 (23). It is several days before XX 36. Ororo and Remy return to California and reunite with the rest of the X-Treme team, and Storm informs them they are now XSE  mutant police. She also informs the team shes going solo to infiltrate Voges Tokyo arena. Green trees and warm weather in southern California.

Friday, June 13
X-TREME X-MEN #36  FB (7-36)
One night shortly after XX 36-FB (2-6). Storm meets up with Yukio in Tokyo and they infiltrate Voges mutant gladiator arena, where they meet Masato Koga, who knows their identities. Koga tricks Storm into entering the arena battle between Silkworm and Musclehead, only to become the exalted champ. Full moon.
X-TREME X-MEN #37  FB (2-15)
The same night as XX 36-FB (7-36). After tasting victory in the arena, Storm snatches Yukio and flees back to Yukios apartment, where they talk about the state of affairs between humans and mutants.
MYSTIQUE #7 (1-10) 
One night. Mystique and Shortpack steal information from the palace of North Koreas Kim Jong Il. Full moon.

Saturday, June 14
MYSTIQUE #7 (11-21)
The morning after MYS 7 (1-10). At Mystiques Brooklyn safehouse, Xavier tells her that the North Koreans were planning to steal bigpox from Harrison Taylor, a scientist in South Africa, her next destination. On her way out at JFK Airport, Mystique again encounters Shepard, the man she met at the Cuban bar, who offers her another chance to be a double agent; she refuses and the man reports to his boss, the Quiet Man. Xavier is standing in this segment (even though its a telepathic projection, Mystique had to ask if he were real), so this story must occur before X 146 (and thus before X 142); it is likely before Xavier announces his intention to step down as headmaster in X 138 (10-14). Green grass and trees in Westchester.
X-TREME X-MEN #37  FB (16-36)
The day after XX 37-FB (2-15). Strong Guy shows up at Yukios apartment and tries to dissuade Storm from joining the Fellowship of the Arena, in which he has been involved since X-Factor broke up. Storm does not heed his advice and joins the Fellowship, only to face Callisto.
MYSTIQUE #8
The same night as MYS 7 (11-21). As the Quiet Man and Shepard track her, Mystique arrives in Johannesburg at 10:14 PM SAST. After reconnoitering with Shortpack, she infiltrates Taylors compound, only to discover him dead. She battles the killer, the Host, who infects Mystique with a biological agent and takes off with Taylors bigpox. Green grass and trees in South Africa.

[June 14-16  room for MYS 9-10]

Tuesday, June 17
NEW MUTANTS v2 #7 (19-22)
One day, two weeks after NM2 7 (16-18). Joshs parents arrive at Xaviers, but instead of retrieving him, they name the school his guardian and leave without him. Xavier is still standing. Trees are now bare, with the last leaves falling from them, but the grass at Xaviers is still green.

[June 17-20  room for NM2 8-12]

Wednesday, June 18?
X-TREME X-MEN #36 ~ X-TREME X-MEN #37
One day, several days after XX 36-FB (2-6). A gladiator star, Storm enters Voges Tokyo arena for a contest.

Thursday, June 19

Friday, June 20
NEW X-MEN #142
One night. The narration notes Emmas murder in X 139 (21-22) as having occurred last month. As this issue leads to Xaviers crippling in X 146, it must occur after MYS 7 (11-21), UX 436, and NM2 7. Wolverine (sans goatee, and probably wearing the new outfit with yellow stripes under his jacket) happens to find Scott at the Hellfire Club trying to get drunk. He tells Scott the right after he left [actually it was a few days after, as noted in X 139 (21-22)], Emma was shot, and that Scotts the prime suspect. Sabretooth is also at the club, and it appears that hes on his own reconnaissance  he may be here after WX2 12. Logan is at the Hellfire Club to meet with Fantomex to begin a mission to take down the Weapon Plus program, and he tries to get Cyclops to join them. 

Saturday, June 21
NEW X-MEN #143
Probably the early morning after X 142; since Scott is expected to have a hangover, it is likely several hours after X 142, but it is still dark out. Logan, Scott, and Fantomex infiltrate the evolutionary engineering facility, the World. There they encounter AIM agents who have been attacked by Weapon XV.
NEW X-MEN #144
The same early morning as X 143. Inside the World, Logan, Scott, and Fantomex encounter Weapon XV, who breaks free and heads for the Weapon Plus space station. Full moon.
NEW X-MEN #145
The same day as X 144. It is mere days before X 148 (6-22). Logan, Scott, and Fantomex follow Weapon XV to the Weapon Plus space station, where Logan accesses files concerning his identity, then, desperate and disturbed, he blows up the station.
NEW X-MEN #146
The same day as X 145. It is days before X 149 and three days before X 150 (1-31). Having escaped the satellite in a spacecraft, Scott and Fantomex crash into the Pacific Ocean. Beast and Emma head out to retrieve them, but their aircraft is sabotaged. Phoenix departs for space to retrieve Logan, who she finds alive. Jean and Wolverine discover that the Weapon Plus space program is Asteroid M, which also is rigged to explode. Xavier formally meets Dust, so this issue cant occur long after UX 138 (16-23). Dust attacks and disables Cerebra at the order of Xorn, who cripples Xavier and reveals himself to be Magneto. Xavier states that he still hopes to step down this summer as headmaster of the Institute. Green grass and trees at Xaviers.
NEW X-MEN #147  FB (20-21)
The same day as X 146. After taking Xavier prisoner, Magneto destroys the Xavier Institute.

Sunday, June 22
NEW X-MEN #147  FB (2-3)
The day after X 147FB (20-21). Magneto tears Manhattan apart.
NEW X-MEN #147
The same day as X 147-FB (2-3). Magneto notes that its taken one day to take over Manhattan, a good bit of which he destroys in this issue at great cost of human life. There is no sign of Asgard above Manhattan, and surely Thor would have opposed the carnage wrought by Magneto in this issue if he were around, so this issue must occur after the Reigning storyline in T2; one might argue that Magneto used the disappearance of Asgard as an opportunity to play his final hand. He refers to the time he spent masquerading as Xorn as all those months  indeed, Ive placed this story a little over a year after Xorn was invited to Xaviers in X 01 (30-42). It is not known where New Yorks heroes or the other X-Men are all this time.
NEW X-MEN #148 (1-5)
It must be the same day as X 147. Aboard the hurtling Asteroid M, Logan and Jean have 24 hours before the station hits the surface of the sun.

Monday, June 23
NEW X-MEN #148 (6-22)
The day (24 hours) after X 148 (1-5). It is mere days after X 145, but perhaps at least two days after X 147, since Magneto notes that each day, more and more mutants flock to my cause. No other stories can occur in New York during the time Magneto has converted it to New Genosha. Magneto gloats over his victory, orders Esme to find the remaining X-Men via Cerebra, and orders the mass extermination of all remaining humans in New Genosha tomorrow. Meanwhile, Logan guts Jean to put an end to her pain as Asteroid M burns up at the sun.

Tuesday, June 24
NEW X-MEN #149
The rainy day after X 148 (6-22). It is days after X 142. As Magneto drives New Yorks humans to their deaths, he accidentally kills Basilisk and loses the support of Angel and Beak, the latter of whom is sent to his death. Beak survives and is taken in by a mutant resistance force that includes Esmes sisters, Dust, Cyclops, and Fantomex. As Magneto gloats before the imprisoned Xavier, Charles is contacted telepathically by Jean. Green trees in New York.
NEW X-MEN #150 (1-31)
The same day as X 149. It is three days after X 146. Logan and Jean are resurrected by the release of the Phoenix Consciousness and they hie back to earth, pick up Emma and Hank in the Pacific Ocean, and head to Manhattan, where Magneto faces restless followers, mutineering sidekicks, and an attack by Fantomex and Cyclops. In the ensuing melee, Xavier is freed and Esme is killed by Magneto. Magneto sends an electromagnetic pulse through Jeans body and it kills her. Logan decapitates Magneto. We see green grass and trees and rain in New York and Washington, DC.

			*	*	*

Re: New X-chronology: May-June calendar
Posted by Jeph! on December 20, 2003 at 17:09:47:
In Reply to: New X-chronology: May-June calendar 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 20, 2003 at 15:54:40:

A few things:

I was under the impression that XX #25-onwards had to occur AFTER the Riot, as Sam notes the events of the Riot in XX #24. Yet here, you've placed XX #25-30 before the Riot...

Also, I don't have the issue yet -- can you give me the details of the conversation in XX #33 that makes it sound like the issue must be before Magneto's attack in X #146-150?

And finally, any particular reason you placed ASM2 #57-58 and ASM #500 in-between pages of X #138, rather than between X #141-142? I was under the impression that Xavier's closed earlier than other schools -- in one NM2 issue, one student (Kevin Ford?) is taking finals while xavier's summer session has started -- so while Peter Parker's school would be wrapping up the term (in ASM2 #57), Xavier's should already have closed (placing it after X #141).

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: New X-chronology: May-June calendar
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 20, 2003 at 22:27:34:
In Reply to: Re: New X-chronology: May-June calendar 
posted by Jeph! on December 20, 2003 at 17:09:47:

> A few things:

> I was under the impression that XX #25-onwards had to occur AFTER the Riot, as Sam notes the events of the Riot in XX #24. Yet here, you've placed XX #25-30 before the Riot...

You're absolutely right. I knew I overlooked some details when re-shuffling. I think I have a suitable correction. I'll post the revised calendar separately.


> Also, I don't have the issue yet -- can you give me the details of the conversation in XX #33 that makes it sound like the issue must be before Magneto's attack in X #146-150?

In XX 32, Storm tells Val Cooper, Alexi Vazhin, Alistair Stuart, and others that "the X-Men aren't the threat anymore. Neither is Magneto -- or any of our powerful enemies -- no matter how outrageously they demonstrate their power...imagine a hundred more, a thousand, ten thousand -- and not one of them what society would consider a legal adult."

You might read this as a statement that Magneto's not a danger anymore because he's DEAD (as of X 150), but that's not the right context. Storm's point is that individual super-heroes and super-villains aren't the big threat, it's how humanity deals with the growing mass of "ordinary" mutants that's the true concern.

If Magneto's grand mayhem in Manhattan occurred before this point, Storm would have had a more difficult argument. No one challenged her and said, "What do you mean 'not a threat?' Look at what that #$%^& Magneto did to Manhattan!" I would think that would have been part of the discussion in XX 33 and it wasn't. 


> And finally, any particular reason you placed ASM2 #57-58 and ASM #500 in-between pages of X #138, rather than between X #141-142? I was under the impression that Xavier's closed earlier than other schools -- in one NM2 issue, one student (Kevin Ford?) is taking finals while xavier's summer session has started -- so while Peter Parker's school would be wrapping up the term (in ASM2 #57), Xavier's should already have closed (placing it after X #141).

Well, all that's said in ASM2 57 is that it's getting "closer to summer vacation." (I'm adding that first segment of ASM2 57 to the calendar for reference.) It doesn't say HOW close. I'm assuming there's still a few weeks left to go. My placement here is based on (gasp) the full moon (and the specific reference to the "moonlight" in ASM 500). I decided Cyke could probably be in Manhattan while Emma Frost is shopping with Angel in X 138 (15) -- at least I figured they were shopping in Manhattan. He could also be there while retreating from the X-Men between X 141 and 142, as you suggest. I'm not finding compelling evidence for a before or after "see Scott run" placement.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Also:
Posted by Jeph! on December 20, 2003 at 22:46:13:
In Reply to: Re: New X-chronology: May-June calendar 
posted by Jeph! on December 20, 2003 at 17:09:47:

Also:

You have X-Statix #13-14 in there twice -- once (incorrectly) on May 3-5, and again (correctly -- or at least, after XS #12) on May 10-12.

You've left off ASM2 #57 pp.1-7 from May 22.

And, to expand on the ASM2 placement I noted before:

In NM2 #3, we see that Kevin Ford's school is having finals, while Xavier's has actively begun their summer classes. I see Xavier's as more of a college, which lets out during May, than a high school, which lets out during June.

Which means, if Peter Parker's school is your typical high school, and is on the same schedule as Kevin Ford's high school, then if they're "[getting] closer to summer vacation" in ASM 2 #57, then it's likely that Xavier's has already closed, and begun its summer session.

If you're worried about keeping Peter Parker's birthday straight, note that currently you have ASM #500 on May 23rd -- whereas placing it in-between X #141-142 means anywhere between May 29th and June 20th. It's not that big a disruption to Peter's birthday time to bump ASM #500 up one week to, say, May 30th -- but for Cyclops, it's a much smoother placement, explaining why he's on his own here, as opposed to fighting alongside the rest of the X-Men.

That's all I got. Anyone else?

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Bah!
Posted by Jeph! on December 20, 2003 at 22:51:37:
In Reply to: Also: 
posted by Jeph! on December 20, 2003 at 22:46:13:

Yes, I was typing all that while you were busy posting corrections. Arrr.

Anyway, thanks for the reasoning on your placement of ASM2 #57-58/ASM #500. However, please consider my extended rebuttal for placing Cyclops just after X #141 -- considering that he's in Manhattan, completely alone.

Saturday night and this is what we do. Yike.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Bah!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 21, 2003 at 08:29:28:
In Reply to: Bah! 
posted by Jeph! on December 20, 2003 at 22:51:37:

> Yes, I was typing all that while you were busy posting corrections. Arrr.

> Anyway, thanks for the reasoning on your placement of ASM2 #57-58/ASM #500. However, please consider my extended rebuttal for placing Cyclops just after X #141 -- considering that he's in Manhattan, completely alone.

I think we agree that either way would work as far as Cyclops' chronology goes. The placement of Peter's birthday in S-M 21 would help with this (more than any lunar phase reference), if we determine that there isn't a whole lot of leeway for that issue. Conversely, we might discover that Peter's birthday in ASM 500 determines placement of S-M 21. Alas, it will be some time before we're there.

In any event, whether between pages of X 138 or between X 141 and 142, ASM 500 should occur on a Friday, as we see a newspaper headline about the events of ASM 500 in ASM 501, which occurs on a "Saturday."

Future issues of ASM might help, too. If we still have Peter teaching class a couple of weeks after ASM 500, then we may want to stick with the current placement, but if we have a reference to it being summer vacation within a couple of weeks of ASM 500, then we should move ASM 500 to the spot you suggest. Ah, the fun of working with current issues...

--Paul

PS: Unrelated issue -- What do you think of the Hawkeye chronology I worked out in a previous thread (involving Sweet Charity, Thunderbolts, JLA/Avengers, X-Treme X-Men, Marvel Double-Shot)? Waiting for some feedback before shuffling calendar entries.

			*	*	*

Re: Bah!
Posted by Jeph! on December 21, 2003 at 11:47:59:
In Reply to: Re: Bah! 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 21, 2003 at 08:29:28:

> The placement of Peter's birthday in S-M 21 would help with this ... Conversely, we might discover that Peter's birthday in ASM 500 determines placement of S-M 21. Alas, it will be some time before we're there.

> Future issues of ASM might help, too. Ah, the fun of working with current issues...

Okay -- I'll shelve this one for now.


> PS: Unrelated issue -- What do you think of the Hawkeye chronology I worked out in a previous thread (involving Sweet Charity, Thunderbolts, JLA/Avengers, X-Treme X-Men, Marvel Double-Shot)? Waiting for some feedback before shuffling calendar entries.

Whoops, did I not reply to that? I could have sworn I did.

Long story short, it looks good -- although I'm curious where this idea would have "Sweet Charity" fall in terms of X-Treme X-Men, as during that time period the XX team is generally avoiding the mansion -- and yet in SM:SC, Wolverine and Rogue are auctioned off as a unit. I suppose that if it occurs between XX #9-10, things are okay.

I'm also curious why you're bothering to include JLA/Avengers -- I thought MCP policy was that inter-company crossovers were generally non-canon? Although I guess keeping a placeholder open for it to occur, should we ever decide that it DID occur, isn't a bad idea.

As for the rest of it, the Hawkeye and Thor parts? Looks good. Go for it.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Back to Sweet Charity and the Marvel and DC universes
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 21, 2003 at 20:37:16:
In Reply to: Re: Bah! 
posted by Jeph! on December 21, 2003 at 11:47:59:

> > The placement of Peter's birthday in S-M 21 would help with this ... Conversely, we might discover that Peter's birthday in ASM 500 determines placement of S-M 21. Alas, it will be some time before we're there.

> > Future issues of ASM might help, too. Ah, the fun of working with current issues...

> Okay -- I'll shelve this one for now.

And I'll be spying ASM for more temporal references that could help us here.


> 
> > PS: Unrelated issue -- What do you think of the Hawkeye chronology I worked out in a previous thread (involving Sweet Charity, Thunderbolts, JLA/Avengers, X-Treme X-Men, Marvel Double-Shot)? Waiting for some feedback before shuffling calendar entries.

> Whoops, did I not reply to that? I could have sworn I did.

Hmm. I couldn't find the post, but maybe it's my usual powers of observation at work here.


> Long story short, it looks good -- although I'm curious where this idea would have "Sweet Charity" fall in terms of X-Treme X-Men, as during that time period the XX team is generally avoiding the mansion -- and yet in SM:SC, Wolverine and Rogue are auctioned off as a unit. I suppose that if it occurs between XX #9-10, things are okay.

Sweet Charity can occur between XX 9 and 10. Note, too, that Logan and Rogue are not actually shown at the auction. At a later date, Al Pacino mentions that he had to spend a day with Rogue and Wolverine. However, we don't KNOW that they were: (a) actually at the auction, or just participated in absentia; and (b) a package deal -- for all we know, Al may have placed the high bid for two "dates," one with Logan, one with Rogue.

One other problem, though. That appears to be Matt Murdock in the audience at the Sweet Charity auction. My new placement of this auction ends up between pages 18 and 19 of DD2 35, a period for which Antonio reports that Matt must be in hiding. I wonder if there's any way to make that work. Neither Murdock nor Daredevil are mentioned specifically, so maybe the guy with dark glasses isn't Matt?


> I'm also curious why you're bothering to include JLA/Avengers -- I thought MCP policy was that inter-company crossovers were generally non-canon? Although I guess keeping a placeholder open for it to occur, should we ever decide that it DID occur, isn't a bad idea.

My impression has been that, if a story involves the Marvel Universe and the DC Universe being TWO SEPARATE realities, we can count the story as canon for both universes (e.g. those stories that featured Access -- where is HE now?). If the story implies that DC and Marvel heroes inhabit the SAME reality (e.g. the earlier company crossovers -- X-Men/Teen Titans, Spider-Man/Superman, etc.), it's not canon. JLA/Avengers presents the two universes as separate realities.


> As for the rest of it, the Hawkeye and Thor parts? Looks good. Go for it.

Okay. Aside from the Matt Murdock consideration above, if no one has other objections to the new Sweet Charity placement, and the whole sequence of Thunderbolts, JLA/Avengers, The End, X-Treme X-Men, and Marvel Double-Shot along with it, I'll make the necessary adjustments. And the Spider-Man/Jay Leno story also gets shifted in the process, as it occurs the "month" before Sweet Charity.

Good news: I do believe this placement of Sweet Charity is in keeping with Antonio's Spidey calendar.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Matt Murdock
Posted by Kevin on December 22, 2003 at 11:58:27:
In Reply to: Back to Sweet Charity and the Marvel and DC universes 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 21, 2003 at 20:37:16:


> One other problem, though. That appears to be Matt Murdock in the audience at the Sweet Charity auction. My new placement of this auction ends up between pages 18 and 19 of DD2 35, a period for which Antonio reports that Matt must be in hiding. I wonder if there's any way to make that work. Neither Murdock nor Daredevil are mentioned specifically, so maybe the guy with dark glasses isn't Matt?

How sure are you that it's Matt Murdock? I don't have Sweet Charity, but it's my understanding that it's a superhero auction, correct? Win the auction and you get to go on a date with a superhero? So what would Matt Murdock be doing there? This is obviously before Murdock's being outed by the Newspapers, isn't it? 

Does Murdock say any lines? Is he just standing around? Cause, yes, if he's in hiding in Japan, then I don't see a reason why he'd come back to America for an auction...

By the way, my next Daredevil issue reviews should come in January. 

			*	*	*

Re: Matt Murdock
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 22, 2003 at 18:30:53:
In Reply to: Matt Murdock 
posted by Kevin on December 22, 2003 at 11:58:27:

> 
> > One other problem, though. That appears to be Matt Murdock in the audience at the Sweet Charity auction. My new placement of this auction ends up between pages 18 and 19 of DD2 35, a period for which Antonio reports that Matt must be in hiding. I wonder if there's any way to make that work. Neither Murdock nor Daredevil are mentioned specifically, so maybe the guy with dark glasses isn't Matt?

> How sure are you that it's Matt Murdock? I don't have Sweet Charity, but it's my understanding that it's a superhero auction, correct? Win the auction and you get to go on a date with a superhero? So what would Matt Murdock be doing there? This is obviously before Murdock's being outed by the Newspapers, isn't it? 

> Does Murdock say any lines? Is he just standing around? Cause, yes, if he's in hiding in Japan, then I don't see a reason why he'd come back to America for an auction...

A guy who looks a lot like Matt Murdock stands in the audience (in front of a woman who looks a lot like She-Hulk -- the lighting doesn't show true skin colors). No dialog.

HOWEVER, earlier in the issue, the Daily Bugle does get confirmation that Daredevil would participate in the auction. Hoax? Error? Hard to tell, but I'd be inclined to take that confirmation at face value. But if he intended to participate as DD, why would Matt be in the audience sans costume? Any reason for Matt to commit to this before heading for Japan? We don't know that he was there the entire 26 days between pages 18 and 19 of DD2 35, do we? And how bad was the situation on page 18 of DD2 35? What was Matt's likely mood thereafter? Would he have been willing to make a public appearance as either DD or Matt at that point? Can we make any sense of this without having to do more juggling?


> By the way, my next Daredevil issue reviews should come in January.

Great! Thanks.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Matt Murdock
Posted by Kevin on December 23, 2003 at 21:59:11:
In Reply to: Re: Matt Murdock 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 22, 2003 at 18:30:53:


> > How sure are you that it's Matt Murdock? I don't have Sweet Charity, but it's my understanding that it's a superhero auction, correct? Win the auction and you get to go on a date with a superhero? So what would Matt Murdock be doing there? This is obviously before Murdock's being outed by the Newspapers, isn't it? 

> > Does Murdock say any lines? Is he just standing around? Cause, yes, if he's in hiding in Japan, then I don't see a reason why he'd come back to America for an auction...

> A guy who looks a lot like Matt Murdock stands in the audience (in front of a woman who looks a lot like She-Hulk -- the lighting doesn't show true skin colors). No dialog.

Is there other reckognizable Marvel figures in the audience? I'm trying to figure out if this is just an "average joe" crowd, or if it's a crowd of superhero's gathering around? What's the context? Are they watching the superheroes being bid on up on stage? If so, I highly doubt Matt would be in that crowd watching all those up on stage. On the other hand, if it's a crowd of "famous Average Joes" in Marvel, people like Tony Stark, J. Jonah Jameson, etc., then Matt Murdock MIGHT be there...

> HOWEVER, earlier in the issue, the Daily Bugle does get confirmation that Daredevil would participate in the auction. Hoax? Error? Hard to tell, but I'd be inclined to take that confirmation at face value. 

One thing to take into consideration is that when the story broke about Matt being Daredevil, it was shortly after that that he fled to Japan. So if you have Sweet Charity happening during that period, the story is still fresh like blood in the water.

One concievable way of looking at it is that if you DO want to consider that being Matt at the auction, then the Daily Bugle may have learned that Matt Murdock planned to participate at the auction, and they referred to him as Daredevil, as they, (like most of the press) hoped he would admit to him being Daredevil at that event.

But as we know, Murdock didn't hold an official press conference till his return from Japan, as seen on the last few pages of DD35 and the first few pages of DD36.

> But if he intended to participate as DD, why would Matt be in the audience sans costume? 

Again, maybe they thought Matt was going to show up and reveal he was DD there, but he just came as an audience member to bid, (it was for charity after all)

> Any reason for Matt to commit to this before heading for Japan? We don't know that he was there the entire 26 days between pages 18 and 19 of DD2 35, do we? 

All's we have is Matt's own words upon returning. He talks to Ben Urich before holding the Press Conference the next morning, and he says he's been meditating on his problems in life. It's rather vague.

> And how bad was the situation on page 18 of DD2 35? What was Matt's likely mood thereafter? Would he have been willing to make a public appearance as either DD or Matt at that point? Can we make any sense of this without having to do more juggling?

His mood was that he felt his life was spinning out of control. He was confused, angry, and scared, (or that's how I read it). Not really conditions which I see for him wanting to appear back in America, ESPECIALLY around other superheroes at an auction. He was still going over in his mind whether he wanted to admit to it or deny it, (denying it was of course what he eventually chose).

So really, in my mind, it all depends on how reasonably sure you are that that is indeed Matt Murdock in that crowd. You can concieavable rationalize his appearance, but it'd work better for his character if he stayed in Japan. 

			*	*	*

Oh, and Merry Christmas
Posted by Kevin on December 23, 2003 at 22:02:43:
In Reply to: Re: Matt Murdock 
posted by Kevin on December 23, 2003 at 21:59:11:

I forgot to add on to all those others who read the messages here at this site:

Merry Christmas to all of you, and hope you have a happy holiday! 

			*	*	*

Moving Sweet Charity on the Calendar
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 26, 2003 at 15:24:24:
In Reply to: Re: Matt Murdock 
posted by Kevin on December 23, 2003 at 21:59:11:

Ive been thinking about Daredevils reported commitment to doing the Sweet Charity auction and the presence of a man who is more likely than not Matt Murdock in the audience of the auction.

There is a way to have Sweet Charity make sense in his chronology and that of Hawkeye. If we move Sweet Charity back to the end of March (a time in which the weather could be warm enough for JJJ and Spidey to go camping), wed have DD/Matt here sometime between DD2 25 and 26  a much better slot for DD and Matt to make a public appearance.

Hawkeye could appear here while visiting Avengers Mansion for a few days between TB 63 (when he gained his costume and freedom in Vancouver) and TB 65 (where he appears in Paris three weeks after TB 63), ostensibly to gather intel on Justin Hammer. As I mentioned before, it is at this point that Hawkeye may have picked up a pager from Cap, which Hawkeye later answers in JLA/Avengers (while in Europe training his new T-Bolts, post-TB 65).

Putting Spidey in a late-March Sweet Charity shoves the Jay Leno team-up (last month) back to February, and necessarily bumps the Mets opening day (and Ben Parkers death date, as seen in PPSM2 33) to the first weekend in April. Probably not a big problem. (Antonio, how would this square with your final draft of Spidey chronology?)

No apparent continuity conflicts exist with the other heroes who either appear at the auction or are noted as committing to participation (e.g.: the FF sometime between FF3 54 and 55; Cap before his presumed death in CA3 50/6; Thor in classic costume before the Kang War proper; Giant-Man still erroneously mentioned, as Pym would be Yellowjacket by now  although this change would be more recent and the confusion more understandable).

The only possible exception to this are Rogue and Wolverine. Although their commitment is not noted ahead of the auction and they themselves do not appear at the auction, it is later reported that Al Pacino and Beverly DAngelo won a day with the two X-Men, who they found depressing. Placing Sweet Charity at the end of March means that Rogue would be participating in the auction during the gap weve placed between her leaving Xaviers with the X-Treme team (XX 2-FB and G&B 1-FB) and the X-Treme teams adventure in Valencia (XX 1). We currently have Logan in Canada at the end of March, although we can explain his date with Pacino and DAngelo a number of ways  e.g. subbing later on the date for a teammate who DID participate in the auction). But does it make sense for Rogue to participate in (if not actually attend) the charity auction at a time when her team is in Spain and she may not wish to be within a hundred miles of Xaviers?

Seems to me her continuity is better served by the new placement of Sweet Charity than Daredevils is by the old placement. Comments?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Sweet Charity and Rogue
Posted by Jeph! on December 27, 2003 at 12:16:24:
In Reply to: Moving Sweet Charity on the Calendar 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 26, 2003 at 15:24:24:

I'm writing this at my stepfather's house, celebrating a late Christmas, so I don't have access to my comics to check all my facts.

> We currently have Logan in Canada at the end of March

Which issues are these? I'm guessing W2 Annual 2001 and #170-173, right? Can they be pushed up to place Sweet Charity before Logan travels up there?

> Placing Sweet Charity at the end of March means that Rogue would be participating in the auction during the gap weve placed between her leaving Xaviers with the X-Treme team (XX 2-FB and G&B 1-FB) and the X-Treme teams adventure in Valencia (XX 1).

> does it make sense for Rogue to participate in (if not actually attend) the charity auction at a time when her team is in Spain and she may not wish to be within a hundred miles of Xaviers?

As I recall, there's quite a lot of room to fudge the details of exactly when Rogue left to join up with the rest of the X-Treme Team. In XX #2-FB, Storm and the Beast track down Rogue in the South somewhere, where she's gone to be alone. They inform her that it's time to leave to met the others.

Then, in G&B #1-FB, we see the MOST of the X-Treme Team leave Xavier's -- without Bishop and the Beast. These two flashbacks don't exactly square up -- was it Bishop and the Beast who left last, joining the others just before they went to Spain? Or was it Rogue who joined up with the team last, at a point where the Beast had already joined them?

(There's another flashback in XX #3, which appears to show a party the night before the X-Treme Team leaves for Spain, where they're ALL present. However, whether the party takes place at the mansion or not is debatable.)

No matter which flashback came first, it appears that there was a time where Rogue separated from the team -- either before or after they left Xavier's -- and travelled to the South. It could be in this time period where she was approached by Logan (who, as we saw in UX #388 or so, was helping Rogue deal with her enhanced powers), and convinced to attend the Charity auction -- possibly just the two of them, without the participation of any other X-Men. Later on, she was approached by Storm and the Beast to rejoin the team, who were preparing to travel to Spain.

How does that sound?

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Sweet Charity and Rogue
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 27, 2003 at 22:01:52:
In Reply to: Sweet Charity and Rogue 
posted by Jeph! on December 27, 2003 at 12:16:24:

> > We currently have Logan in Canada at the end of March

> Which issues are these? I'm guessing W2 Annual 2001 and #170-173, right? Can they be pushed up to place Sweet Charity before Logan travels up there?

Yes, and yes. We can move W '01/2 and W2 170-176 ahead five days to accommodate a BTS appearance by Logan at the Sweet Charity auction on March 29 and a date with Pacino and D'Angelo the next day, March 30. Logan can get the call from Gus' sister (alluded to in W '01/2) on March 31, he can arrive in Alberta the night of April 1, and the rest of W '01/2 and the entirety of W2 170-176 can occur from April 2 through April 8, just prior to the Kang War proper. While Logan's in Canada, Cap supposedly dies in CA3 50/6 and Logan is not at the funeral, perhaps because he's out of the country (not that any of the X-Men are there, but I would think Logan would make an appearance if he could).


> > Placing Sweet Charity at the end of March means that Rogue would be participating in the auction during the gap weve placed between her leaving Xaviers with the X-Treme team (XX 2-FB and G&B 1-FB) and the X-Treme teams adventure in Valencia (XX 1).

> > does it make sense for Rogue to participate in (if not actually attend) the charity auction at a time when her team is in Spain and she may not wish to be within a hundred miles of Xaviers?

> As I recall, there's quite a lot of room to fudge the details of exactly when Rogue left to join up with the rest of the X-Treme Team. In XX #2-FB, Storm and the Beast track down Rogue in the South somewhere, where she's gone to be alone. They inform her that it's time to leave to met the others.

> Then, in G&B #1-FB, we see the MOST of the X-Treme Team leave Xavier's -- without Bishop and the Beast. These two flashbacks don't exactly square up -- was it Bishop and the Beast who left last, joining the others just before they went to Spain? Or was it Rogue who joined up with the team last, at a point where the Beast had already joined them?

> (There's another flashback in XX #3, which appears to show a party the night before the X-Treme Team leaves for Spain, where they're ALL present. However, whether the party takes place at the mansion or not is debatable.)

> No matter which flashback came first, it appears that there was a time where Rogue separated from the team -- either before or after they left Xavier's -- and travelled to the South. It could be in this time period where she was approached by Logan (who, as we saw in UX #388 or so, was helping Rogue deal with her enhanced powers), and convinced to attend the Charity auction -- possibly just the two of them, without the participation of any other X-Men. Later on, she was approached by Storm and the Beast to rejoin the team, who were preparing to travel to Spain.

> How does that sound?

So, the X-Treme team would spend its last day before leaving Xavier's in XX 3-FB. The next day, Rogue leaves with the X-Treme team in G&B 1-FB, except for Bishop and Beast, who remain. At some later point, Rogue takes off on her own, meets up with Logan and participates in the Sweet Charity auction (BTS in Sweet Charity). Then she spends time in the South, where Storm and Beast (now rejoined with the X-Treme team) catch up with her in XX 2-FB. The whole team is then seen in XX 1. Totally feasible, and it helps explain the long period between XX 3-FB and XX 1.

Unless I hear objections in the next few days, I think I'll go ahead and move Sweet Charity, the Jay Leno/Spidey story, PPSM3 33, W '01/2 and W2 170-176 to their new proposed positions on the calendar.

Thanks, Jeph.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Sweet Charity, Wolverine, and Rogue
Posted by Jeph! on December 27, 2003 at 23:17:39:
In Reply to: Re: Sweet Charity and Rogue 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 27, 2003 at 22:01:52:

> We can move W '01/2 and W2 170-176 ahead five days to accommodate a BTS appearance by Logan at the Sweet Charity auction on March 29 and a date with Pacino and D'Angelo the next day, March 30.

Cool. However...

> While Logan's in Canada, Cap supposedly dies in CA3 50/6 and Logan is not at the funeral, perhaps because he's out of the country (not that any of the X-Men are there, but I would think Logan would make an appearance if he could).

Many of the X-Men ARE at Cap's funeral -- including, I thought, Logan. Check the back right corner of the final page of CA3 #50/6 -- if I recall correctly, we see Cyclops, Storm, and the pre-Cat-Beast ... and, I'm pretty sure, Wolverine as well.

Can Wolverine's appearance at the funeral work out? Can W2 #170-176 be moved further forward so that Logan appears at Cap's funeral before W2 @2001, or can Cap's funeral be pushed forward to occur after the new placement of W2 #176?

(And, FYI, W2 #175 is the anniversary of Mariko Yashida's death in W2 #57 ... any idea if that's going to work out?)


You've given me a good idea here, though -- I originally had Storm and the Beast's appearances in CA3 #50/6 between XX #3-4 ... however, placing them before XX #1 as you have seems to work out better, as my placement forced us to make the assumption that Storm travelled back to New York with the wounded Beast between issues. I should make this change on my map -- thanks!


> So, the X-Treme team would spend its last day before leaving Xavier's in XX 3-FB. The next day, Rogue leaves with the X-Treme team in G&B 1-FB, except for Bishop and Beast, who remain. At some later point, Rogue takes off on her own, meets up with Logan and participates in the Sweet Charity auction (BTS in Sweet Charity). Then she spends time in the South, where Storm and Beast (now rejoined with the X-Treme team) catch up with her in XX 2-FB. The whole team is then seen in XX 1. Totally feasible, and it helps explain the long period between XX 3-FB and XX 1.

Essentially correct -- although, I thought the XX #3-FB dealt with the team's last night before leaving for Spain -- not their last night at Xavier's. I have the sequence of events go something like this...

The majority of the X-Treme Team leave (for parts unknown, not for Spain -- possibly for a posh hotel; more later) in G&B #1-FB. Bishop and the Beast stay behind, mind-controlled by Stryfe. When Stryfe's hold is broken in G&B #1, the Beast takes off with Logan in W2 #162-166, while Bishop goes off with Gambit in G&B #1-6.

Meanwhile, Rogue grows tired of waiting for the rest of her team, and seeks out Logan (just after W2 #166) for more help dealing with her new powers. Logan ropes her into the charity auction, and afterwards she heads South for some solitude.

Then Cap "dies". Storm and the Beast attend the funeral out of respect, even though they've been trying to disassociate themselves from the main X-Men team. Wolvie also attends, either before or after W2 #170-176 -- but defintely after W2 #169, as the Beast is still BTS at the X-Mansion, healing from his injuries in W2 #162-166 in #167, and Wolvie is missing an eye from W2 #164-169.

(By the way, since Logan is only BTS in Sweet Charity, we don't know that he definitely had two eyes at that point. Sweet Charity COULD be slotted between W2 #166-167 if need be.)

Then, in XX #2-FB, Storm and the Beast approach Rogue about beginning the hunt for Destiny's diaries. Bishop has apparently rejoined the group by now, because the full team then has a celebration (in a posh hotel, I'm assuming, not the X-Mansion) in XX #3-FB, where it is announced that they'll start their search in Spain. The next day, they head off, and we see them arrive in XX #1.

Things would look something like this...

G&B #1-FB
G&B #1-6
W2 #162-166
W2 #167-169
Sweet Charity
[CA3 #50/6?]
W2 @2001
W2 #170-176
[CA3 #50/6?]
XX #2-FB
XX #3-FB
XX #1

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Sweet Charity, Wolverine, and Rogue
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 28, 2003 at 17:07:51:
In Reply to: Re: Sweet Charity, Wolverine, and Rogue 
posted by Jeph! on December 27, 2003 at 23:17:39:

> > We can move W '01/2 and W2 170-176 ahead five days to accommodate a BTS appearance by Logan at the Sweet Charity auction on March 29 and a date with Pacino and D'Angelo the next day, March 30.

> Cool. However...

> > While Logan's in Canada, Cap supposedly dies in CA3 50/6 and Logan is not at the funeral, perhaps because he's out of the country (not that any of the X-Men are there, but I would think Logan would make an appearance if he could).

> Many of the X-Men ARE at Cap's funeral -- including, I thought, Logan. Check the back right corner of the final page of CA3 #50/6 -- if I recall correctly, we see Cyclops, Storm, and the pre-Cat-Beast ... and, I'm pretty sure, Wolverine as well.

> Can Wolverine's appearance at the funeral work out? Can W2 #170-176 be moved further forward so that Logan appears at Cap's funeral before W2 @2001, or can Cap's funeral be pushed forward to occur after the new placement of W2 #176?

Gee, it would help if I actually *read* my own notes! Sheesh.

But yes, Logan, Storm, Beast, Scott, Jean, and Kurt are at Cap's funeral, which I've placed on April 4. It's tough to move this event back, but we CAN move W '01/2 and W2 170-176 to a spot right after the funeral.

Upon returning from Cap's funeral, Logan can get the call that takes him to Canada. His adventures in W '01/2 and W2 170-176 would then take place until the night of April 12, the night before Washington is nuked by Kang in A3 49.


> (And, FYI, W2 #175 is the anniversary of Mariko Yashida's death in W2 #57 ... any idea if that's going to work out?)

The new placement of W2 175 will be April 11. No idea at this point if that's going to work okay as a date for W2 57. 


> 
> You've given me a good idea here, though -- I originally had Storm and the Beast's appearances in CA3 #50/6 between XX #3-4 ... however, placing them before XX #1 as you have seems to work out better, as my placement forced us to make the assumption that Storm travelled back to New York with the wounded Beast between issues. I should make this change on my map -- thanks!

Hey, it's great that this whole Sweet Charity thing is actually helping rather than hindering things for a change. Maybe, just maybe, we have Sweet Charity nailed at last.


> 
> > So, the X-Treme team would spend its last day before leaving Xavier's in XX 3-FB. The next day, Rogue leaves with the X-Treme team in G&B 1-FB, except for Bishop and Beast, who remain. At some later point, Rogue takes off on her own, meets up with Logan and participates in the Sweet Charity auction (BTS in Sweet Charity). Then she spends time in the South, where Storm and Beast (now rejoined with the X-Treme team) catch up with her in XX 2-FB. The whole team is then seen in XX 1. Totally feasible, and it helps explain the long period between XX 3-FB and XX 1.

> Essentially correct -- although, I thought the XX #3-FB dealt with the team's last night before leaving for Spain -- not their last night at Xavier's. I have the sequence of events go something like this...

> The majority of the X-Treme Team leave (for parts unknown, not for Spain -- possibly for a posh hotel; more later) in G&B #1-FB. Bishop and the Beast stay behind, mind-controlled by Stryfe. When Stryfe's hold is broken in G&B #1, the Beast takes off with Logan in W2 #162-166, while Bishop goes off with Gambit in G&B #1-6.

> Meanwhile, Rogue grows tired of waiting for the rest of her team, and seeks out Logan (just after W2 #166) for more help dealing with her new powers. Logan ropes her into the charity auction, and afterwards she heads South for some solitude.

> Then Cap "dies". Storm and the Beast attend the funeral out of respect, even though they've been trying to disassociate themselves from the main X-Men team. Wolvie also attends, either before or after W2 #170-176 -- but defintely after W2 #169, as the Beast is still BTS at the X-Mansion, healing from his injuries in W2 #162-166 in #167, and Wolvie is missing an eye from W2 #164-169.

> (By the way, since Logan is only BTS in Sweet Charity, we don't know that he definitely had two eyes at that point. Sweet Charity COULD be slotted between W2 #166-167 if need be.)

No need. Sweet Charity fits fine during the last weekend in March, BEFORE Cap's "death." Remember Cap is in Sweet Charity and seems in good health. After Cap's unseen ressurection, we've placed him all bandaged up in A3 46.


> Then, in XX #2-FB, Storm and the Beast approach Rogue about beginning the hunt for Destiny's diaries. Bishop has apparently rejoined the group by now, because the full team then has a celebration (in a posh hotel, I'm assuming, not the X-Mansion) in XX #3-FB, where it is announced that they'll start their search in Spain. The next day, they head off, and we see them arrive in XX #1.

> Things would look something like this...

> G&B #1-FB
> G&B #1-6
> W2 #162-166
> W2 #167-169
> Sweet Charity
> [CA3 #50/6?]
> W2 @2001
> W2 #170-176
> [CA3 #50/6?]
> XX #2-FB
> XX #3-FB
> XX #1

Yes, that's the proposed order. I will go ahead and update the calendar with new placements and new notes for the X-Men, as you have laid them out.

--Paul
(getting that much closer to the new improved calendar...)

			*	*	*

Re: Sweet Charity, Wolvie, Cap, and Hank Pym
Posted by Jeph! on December 29, 2003 at 03:27:26:
In Reply to: Re: Sweet Charity, Wolverine, and Rogue 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 28, 2003 at 17:07:51:

> Logan, Storm, Beast, Scott, Jean, and Kurt are at Cap's funeral, which I've placed on April 4. It's tough to move this event back, but we CAN move W '01/2 and W2 170-176 to a spot right after the funeral.

Perfect.

> Upon returning from Cap's funeral, Logan can get the call that takes him to Canada. His adventures in W '01/2 and W2 170-176 would then take place until the night of April 12, the night before Washington is nuked by Kang in A3 49.

And then he's next seen in A3 #51, avoiding capture by Kang's forces... :-) Sorry, I know it's not really relevant, but I couldn't resist dropping that in.

> > (And, FYI, W2 #175 is the anniversary of Mariko Yashida's death in W2 #57 ... any idea if that's going to work out?)

> The new placement of W2 175 will be April 11. No idea at this point if that's going to work okay as a date for W2 57.

I guess it'll have to, eh?


> Sweet Charity fits fine during the last weekend in March, BEFORE Cap's "death." Remember Cap is in Sweet Charity and seems in good health. After Cap's unseen ressurection, we've placed him all bandaged up in A3 46.

I think you mean A3 #45 here, right?

> Maybe, just maybe, we have Sweet Charity nailed at last.

I certainly hope so! By the way, you mentioned earlier that Sweet Charity has a mention of Hank Pym as Giant-Man. Does that work? You just stated that we placed the healthy Cap in Sweet Charity before Cap's "death" in CA3 #50/4-6, and before A3 #45, where Cap is injured. A3 #45 is also the first Avengers issue where we see Hank Pym switch to Yellowjacket -- however, we decided that he had actually made the switch in "Avengers: the Ultron Imperative", which we had placed after A3 #44 and before CA3 #50.

Does "Sweet Charity" fall prior to "Ultron Imperative"? Can it be placed beforehand? Given all we went through with IM3 #46-48, CA3 #45-48, A:UI and A3 #45 to keep Hank Pym's identity/ies straight, I'd hate to see Sweet Charity mess things up.

(By the way, would you mind re-posting that interlocking tangle of issues? I don't recall exactly how it all got sorted out.)


> I will go ahead and update the calendar with new placements and new notes for the X-Men, as you have laid them out.

Fabulous. Could we finally be close to putting Sweet Charity to bed?!

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Sweet Charity and Tangled Web
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 29, 2003 at 11:21:11:
In Reply to: Re: Sweet Charity, Wolvie, Cap, and Hank Pym 
posted by Jeph! on December 29, 2003 at 03:27:26:

> > Sweet Charity fits fine during the last weekend in March, BEFORE Cap's "death." Remember Cap is in Sweet Charity and seems in good health. After Cap's unseen ressurection, we've placed him all bandaged up in A3 46.

> I think you mean A3 #45 here, right?

Oops, typo. Yes, it's A3 45, which I have on April 9.


> > Maybe, just maybe, we have Sweet Charity nailed at last.

> I certainly hope so! By the way, you mentioned earlier that Sweet Charity has a mention of Hank Pym as Giant-Man. Does that work? You just stated that we placed the healthy Cap in Sweet Charity before Cap's "death" in CA3 #50/4-6, and before A3 #45, where Cap is injured. A3 #45 is also the first Avengers issue where we see Hank Pym switch to Yellowjacket -- however, we decided that he had actually made the switch in "Avengers: the Ultron Imperative", which we had placed after A3 #44 and before CA3 #50.

> Does "Sweet Charity" fall prior to "Ultron Imperative"? Can it be placed beforehand? Given all we went through with IM3 #46-48, CA3 #45-48, A:UI and A3 #45 to keep Hank Pym's identity/ies straight, I'd hate to see Sweet Charity mess things up.

This really isn't a problem in my mind. Betty Brant reports that "Giant-Man" is among those who have committed to the auction, but we never seem Pym in this incarnation in Sweet Charity. I conclude that "Hank Pym" committed to the auction and that Betty incorrectly assigned the Giant-Man identity to him. Understandable, since Pym had just recently readopted the Yellowjkacket identity. Besides, "Giant-Man" was really outdated by this point; even if we move Sweet Charity before Ultron Imperative, Pym was "Goliath," not "Giant-Man" at that time. All the more reason not to let Betty's reference dictate chronological placement.


> (By the way, would you mind re-posting that interlocking tangle of issues? I don't recall exactly how it all got sorted out.)

It's all integrated into the rest of the MU calendar at this point. Do you mind waiting until the calendar is posted?

> 
> > I will go ahead and update the calendar with new placements and new notes for the X-Men, as you have laid them out.

> Fabulous. Could we finally be close to putting Sweet Charity to bed?!

Assuming this works out with Antonio's Spidey calendar. I seem to recall there's a consideration we need to make about Al Kraven's chronology here. Placing Sweet Charity in late March would mean that Kraven, his girl Timby, and Tombstone all appear there before TW 13. Since Kraven notes in TW 13 that he and Timby have gone out a few times, I assume that this could mean that Sweet Charity was one of those times. Also, Kraven and Tombstone have an altercation in TW 13 that could easily occur after Sweet Charity, where we see Tombstone just looking at Kraven from the crowd.

Antonio, if you're reading, can this new placement of Sweet Charity in late March, and Spider-Man/Jay Leno in February, work vis-a-vis the Spidey chronology?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Sweet Charity and Tangled Web
Posted by Jeph! on December 29, 2003 at 11:32:40:
In Reply to: Re: Sweet Charity and Tangled Web 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 29, 2003 at 11:21:11:

> Sweet Charity has a mention of Hank Pym as Giant-Man. Does that work?

> Betty Brant reports that "Giant-Man" is among those who have committed to the auction, but we never seem Pym in this incarnation ... Besides, "Giant-Man" was really outdated by this point; even if we move Sweet Charity before Ultron Imperative, Pym was "Goliath," not "Giant-Man" at that time.

Oh yeah. Okay, never mind then.

> > (By the way, would you mind re-posting that interlocking tangle of issues? I don't recall exactly how it all got sorted out.)

> It's all integrated into the rest of the MU calendar at this point. Do you mind waiting until the calendar is posted?

Sure. It was just a passing curiosity.

Well, I'm out of contributions ... funnily enough, though, I just noticed that my X-map from August of 2002 had Cap #50/4-6, Wolvie @2001 and #170-176, and the Kang War Proper in Avengers #46-54 in the exact order we just settled on. How about that, huh? :-)

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Sweet Charity and Tangled Web
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 29, 2003 at 17:42:36:
In Reply to: Re: Sweet Charity and Tangled Web 
posted by Jeph! on December 29, 2003 at 11:32:40:

> Well, I'm out of contributions ... funnily enough, though, I just noticed that my X-map from August of 2002 had Cap #50/4-6, Wolvie @2001 and #170-176, and the Kang War Proper in Avengers #46-54 in the exact order we just settled on. How about that, huh? :-)

Hmmm. I guess it takes some of us a while to figure these things out. ;-)

The key here was approaching Hawkeye's chronology from a different angle to allow some non-TB appearances to occur before TB 75 and coming up with a feasible explanation for the appearances. Funny, then, how other things started falling into place.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Sweet Charity and Tangled Web
Posted by Antonio Gavio on December 29, 2003 at 16:21:17:
In Reply to: Re: Sweet Charity and Tangled Web 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 29, 2003 at 11:21:11:


> > Fabulous. Could we finally be close to putting Sweet Charity to bed?!

> Assuming this works out with Antonio's Spidey calendar. I seem to recall there's a consideration we need to make about Al Kraven's chronology here. Placing Sweet Charity in late March would mean that Kraven, his girl Timby, and Tombstone all appear there before TW 13. Since Kraven notes in TW 13 that he and Timby have gone out a few times, I assume that this could mean that Sweet Charity was one of those times. Also, Kraven and Tombstone have an altercation in TW 13 that could easily occur after Sweet Charity, where we see Tombstone just looking at Kraven from the crowd.

> Antonio, if you're reading, can this new placement of Sweet Charity in late March, and Spider-Man/Jay Leno in February, work vis-a-vis the Spidey chronology?

> --Paul


I just finished checking things out and aside from an extended full moon exposure everything fits smoothly. TW 13 has to happen before Sweet Charity though, so I'm moving it to the middle of March where it actually makes more sense regarding Ock's appearance and some Vulture comments. PPSM2 38 needs to be moved back a day too but there's no problems there. PPSM2 33 would then be moved ahead to Monday April 1st which is fine too, it doesn't need to be a weekend here since Peter is in spring break at this point, and then there's already another Mets' game in SM/DD 1 that same week.
So, to make sure we are on the same page here's the dates for the issues in question:

February 21
PPSM2 38 (1-20)
February 22
PPSM2 38 (21-22)
SM&JL 1 (1-2)
February 23
SM&JL 1 (3-5)
SM&JL 2
SM&JL 3 (1-4)
February 28
SM&JL 3 (5) (Full Moon)
March 13
TW 13-FB (16p3-20p4)
TW 13-FB (25p4-30)
March 16
TW 13
March 27
SM:SC 1 (1-11)
March 29
SM:SC 1 (12-17)
March 30
SM:SC 1 (18-32)
March 31
SM:SC 1 (33-51)
April 1
PPSM2 33
SM:SC 1 (52-56)

Now if we nail placement for DEADLINE I would be in position to post the Spidey Calendar.

Antonio 

			*	*	*

Re: Sweet Charity and Tangled Web
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 29, 2003 at 17:37:12:
In Reply to: Re: Sweet Charity and Tangled Web 
posted by Antonio Gavio on December 29, 2003 at 16:21:17:

> I just finished checking things out and aside from an extended full moon exposure everything fits smoothly. TW 13 has to happen before Sweet Charity though, so I'm moving it to the middle of March where it actually makes more sense regarding Ock's appearance and some Vulture comments. PPSM2 38 needs to be moved back a day too but there's no problems there. PPSM2 33 would then be moved ahead to Monday April 1st which is fine too, it doesn't need to be a weekend here since Peter is in spring break at this point, and then there's already another Mets' game in SM/DD 1 that same week.

Good point. I do have your earlier note about SM/DD showing a Mets game and so occurring after PPSM2 33. You'll note there's a full moon in that SM/DD story which should place it a full month after the full moon in SM&JL. So I'd push SM&JL back to Friday and Saturday, February 1-2, and SM&JL 3 (5) to a weeknight following that weekend (best on Tuesday, Feb. 5), IF this doesn't mess up the Spidey chronology.

One question: would they really have the season opener on a Monday? Or, we COULD explain that April 1 was the anniversary of Ben Parker's death (April Fool's Day -- ironic, ain't it?), that the actual season opener was Saturday, March 30, and that they hadn't taken down the "Welcome to Opening Day" banner by the time Peter attended a game on Monday.

Then, of course, there's another Mets game on Thursday, April 4 (the afternoon of Cap's funeral, which I presume is a morning event). And BTW, we have Cap's stupid death occurring on April 1, too (not completely unintentionally as that whole story was a joke in my book).


> So, to make sure we are on the same page here's the dates for the issues in question:

> February 21
> PPSM2 38 (1-20)
> February 22
> PPSM2 38 (21-22)
> SM&JL 1 (1-2)
> February 23
> SM&JL 1 (3-5)
> SM&JL 2
> SM&JL 3 (1-4)
> February 28
> SM&JL 3 (5) (Full Moon)
> March 13
> TW 13-FB (16p3-20p4)
> TW 13-FB (25p4-30)
> March 16
> TW 13
> March 27
> SM:SC 1 (1-11)
> March 29
> SM:SC 1 (12-17)
> March 30
> SM:SC 1 (18-32)
> March 31
> SM:SC 1 (33-51)
> April 1
> PPSM2 33
> SM:SC 1 (52-56)

> Now if we nail placement for DEADLINE I would be in position to post the Spidey Calendar.

We were discussing the placement of Deadline in another thread, and here's what I think we came up with...

Monday, September 30
DEADLINE #1
One day. Kat Farrell interviews Johnny Storm after he sets fire to Union Square Park, then she gets a week to prove herself for a crime desk job; this is an indication that DL 4 (22-23) probably occurs a week after this issue. The content of a rumor web site, Captain America: Whos Under the Mask Now?, suggests that Cap has resurfaced publicly after his presumed death, which he would have done in the Kang War; the rumor does not suggest placement before or after the public revelation of Caps identity in CA3 3  this story probably occurs afterward and an online rumor mill may be spreading false information that soneone other than Steve Rogers has assumed the Cap identity. Juggernaut appears here getting an X tattoo, so this story likely occurs after UX 413. A reference is made to it being six months since June, but this cant be a December story, and the reference is inconsistent with the October newspaper date shown in DL 4. Coat weather.

Tuesday, October 1
UNCANNY X-MEN #414
One day, months after X 113. Stacy X refers to UX 412 as having occurred the other day, but shes always practiced lazy language  clues in UX 415 tell us its been more than a week since UX 413. Archangel is still in a cast. Northstar accepts a teaching position at Xaviers, but is injured in an explosion that puts him in the infirmary. If we wish to use XS 6-8 as the reason for Xaviers absence in UX 415, then we have to allow enough time between UX 414 and 415 for XS 6-8 to occur. Green grass and trees in Ontario.
DEADLINE #2
The day after DL 1. It is about three months after DL 2-FB. Kat continues to investigate a story about a super-villain killer. Batroc has been struck by an arrow fired by Hawkeye, so this story must occur after TB 75 (24-37). The battle between Spidey and Doc Ock on the Flatiron Building is not the one shown in PPSM2 41  the setting and choreography dont match. So whats the scoop? Coat weather and rain.
DEADLINE #3
The same night as DL 2. It is three months after DL 2-FB. Judge Hart takes Kat to Zeitgeist, a ghost realm where they are forced to watch peoples sudden deaths. We see green shrubs in New York and a waxing crescent moon.
DEADLINE #4 (1-4)
The same night as DL 3. 

Thursday, October 3
DEADLINE #4 (5-21)
One day. DL 3 is referred to as having occurred the other day. The Bugle headline today reads, Hellfire Club Sex Scandal. The newspaper date, ---sday, October 8, like the time reference in DL 1 with which it is inconsistent, must be topical. Besides, the same newspaper date, Tuesday, October 8, appears another day, in DL 4 (22-23)! Kat busts Paul Swanson, and Ben Urich helps Kat think about the story shes investigating. Kat solves the mystery of Alice Harts death, Judge Hart and Tinkerer come to terms with the truth, and Kat decides to scrap her story for their benefit. We see autumn colors and coats here, and Kat has a freezing tush jogging in New York; these references must be topical.

Tuesday, October 8
DEADLINE #4 (22-23)
One day. Kats substitute newspaper column appears in the Daily Bugle, seen with a date of Tuesday, October 8, 2002. The same date, October 8, is seen on another issue of the Bugle the previous week, in DL 4 (5-21), but I have this reference as being the correct one. Since Kat was given a week to come up with the story in DL 1, it should be a week after DL 1 here. Johnny Storm cameos here.

How does this look vis-a-vis the Spidey calendar?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Sweet Charity and Tangled Web
Posted by Antonio Gavio on December 30, 2003 at 00:32:06:
In Reply to: Re: Sweet Charity and Tangled Web 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 29, 2003 at 17:37:12:

> > I just finished checking things out and aside from an extended full moon exposure everything fits smoothly. TW 13 has to happen before Sweet Charity though, so I'm moving it to the middle of March where it actually makes more sense regarding Ock's appearance and some Vulture comments. PPSM2 38 needs to be moved back a day too but there's no problems there. PPSM2 33 would then be moved ahead to Monday April 1st which is fine too, it doesn't need to be a weekend here since Peter is in spring break at this point, and then there's already another Mets' game in SM/DD 1 that same week.

> Good point. I do have your earlier note about SM/DD showing a Mets game and so occurring after PPSM2 33. You'll note there's a full moon in that SM/DD story which should place it a full month after the full moon in SM&JL. So I'd push SM&JL back to Friday and Saturday, February 1-2, and SM&JL 3 (5) to a weeknight following that weekend (best on Tuesday, Feb. 5), IF this doesn't mess up the Spidey chronology.

It doesn't, but a few issues need to be moved around then, with no real problems though. Here's the order of the issues moved:

Dec 12
TW 7-9-FBs
Jan 2
TW 7 (1-10)
Jan 3
TW 7 (11-19)
Jan 4
TW 7 (20-22)
TW 8 (1-7)
Jan 5
TW 8 (8-22) Full Moon
TW 9 (1-9)
Jan 11
TW 9 (10-19)
Jan 15
TW 9 (20-23)
Jan 17
PPSM2 36 (1-10)
Jan 18
PPSM 36 (11-22)

> One question: would they really have the season opener on a Monday? Or, we COULD explain that April 1 was the anniversary of Ben Parker's death (April Fool's Day -- ironic, ain't it?), that the actual season opener was Saturday, March 30, and that they hadn't taken down the "Welcome to Opening Day" banner by the time Peter attended a game on Monday.

A team can have its season opener any day of the week, in most cases they open on April 1st regardless of what day of the week it is, no reason to explain anything there.

> > Now if we nail placement for DEADLINE I would be in position to post the Spidey Calendar.

> We were discussing the placement of Deadline in another thread, and here's what I think we came up with...

...

I'll review the notes about Deadline and if everything is fine I'll post the Spidey chronology. 

Antonio

			*	*	*

Re: Sweet Charity, Wolverine, and Rogue
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 29, 2003 at 21:56:41:
In Reply to: Re: Sweet Charity, Wolverine, and Rogue 
posted by Jeph! on December 27, 2003 at 23:17:39:

I've done my reshuffling on the calendar and here's what I came up with for dates for issues you mentioned...

XX #3-FB (14-17) -- January 16
G&B #1-FB -- January 17
G&B:A -- January 23
G&B #1-6 -- January 23-24
W2 #162-166 -- January 24
W2 167-FB -- January 28
W2 #167-169 -- January 29-30

W @2001 -- February 29-March 6 (few weeks before W2 170)
Sweet Charity #1 -- March 27-31

CA3 #50/6 -- April 3-4
W2 @2001/2 (Logan's part) -- April 4-6
XX #2-FB -- April 6
XX #3-FB(22) -- April 6
W2 #170-176 -- April 7-12

[KANG WAR -- April 13-May 4]

XX #1-4 -- May 5-6 (weeks after XX 2-FB)

The Kang War can explain the "weeks" between XX 2-FB and XX 1 -- the X-Treme team's hunt for Destiny's diaries in Spain got interrupted before it really had a chance to begin. We can assign the X-Treme team to fighting the Kang War in Europe.

How does this look?

--Paul

			*	*	*

New X-chronology: May-June calendar, 2nd edition
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 20, 2003 at 22:31:34:

In Reply to: New X-chronology: May-June calendar posted by Paul Bourcier on December 20, 2003 at 15:54:40:

Thanks to Jeph's first round of comments, here's a fresh, revised edition of the May-June X-calendar, featuring the repositioning of XX issues and an added ASM2 57 entry. Keep the comments coming; I don't expect this will be the last edition...

--Paul


Saturday, May 3
X-STATIX #13 (1-10)
One day, years after XS 13-FB (1/2p3). Henrietta Hunters spirit inhabits a corpse and alters its appearance to look like herself. This news immediately spreads and Spike Freeman gets X-Statix to fetch her for the team. Once at X-Statix headquarters, the team makes her feel unwelcome and she bolts for Lacunas TV talk show. Xavier is shown here standing, so this story must occur before X 146 (and thus before X 142); it is likely before Xavier announces his intention to step down as headmaster in X 138 (10-14). 

Sunday, May 4
X-STATIX #13 (11-17)
Perhaps the day after SX 13 (4-10). After a foiled attempt on Henriettas life, Spike makes her part of X-Statix and the team expresses its displeasure with Spikes unilateral decision. Spike then signs a deal with those who want Henrietta dead to set up a battle between X-Statix and a group of super-powered Euro-Trash.

Monday, May 5
X-STATIX #13 (18-21)
Perhaps the day after XS 13 (11-17). While in New York to attend the opening of the new X-Statix megastore, X-Statix are attacked by the Euro-Trash and Spider-Man joins the fray. It appears to be warm in Manhattan.
X-STATIX #14 (1-19)
The same day as XS 13 (18-21). X-Statix and Spidey battle the Euro-Trash, who retreat inside the store and hold Henrietta hostage. X-Statix leave the scene, but after Doop shows them how Spike Freemans been manipulating them, the team ties him up and returns to destroy the Euro-Trash and free Henrietta. Spidey kind of gets lost in the shuffle. At a follow-up press conference, Henrietta announces she intends to use X-Statix to continue her charitable work and to change the teams costumes. Xavier appears.
NEW MUTANTS #4 (1)
One day. David tells his parents that he is thinking of taking another course  a summer class  at the University of Chicago.

Tuesday, May 6

Wednesday, May 7

Thursday, May 8
X-STATIX #12 (1-10)
One day. Dead Girl becomes a fashion model and faces protesters while her teammates start a mission on the India/Pakistan border. Tike fetches Dead Girl for the mission and finds her at X-Statix morgue, where they encounter a mortician with necrophilia. Green grass and trees in California.
NEW X-MEN #134 (1-2) 
One rainy night. Mutant designer Jumbo Carnation dies in Alphabet City. This event is noted as having occurred the other night in X 135 (1-14).

Friday, May 9
NEW X-MEN #134 (3-22)
The day after X 134 (1-2). Logan is not at Xaviers. Reference is made to Jean being in Hong Kong and expected home soon after being away for a while; however, it seems Jean may run into unexpected delays, as she doesnt make it back home until X 138 (16-23). We see green grass and autumn leaves in Westchester and there is a reference to it being late summerwhich must be topical. 
X-STATIX #12 (11-22)
The day after XS 12 (1-10). The morticians daughter goes on a shooting spree at her high school and ends up being shot dead by police. Dead Girl kills the mortician to protect the daughter and X-Statix finishes its work in Asia. Green grass and trees in California.

Saturday, May 10
X-STATIX #13 (1-10)
One day, years after XS 13-FB (1/2p3). Henrietta Hunters spirit inhabits a corpse and alters its appearance to look like herself. This news immediately spreads and Spike Freeman gets X-Statix to fetch her for the team. Once at X-Statix headquarters, the team makes her feel unwelcome and she bolts for Lacunas TV talk show. Xavier is shown here standing, so this story must occur before X 146 (and thus before X 142); it is likely before Xavier announces his intention to step down as headmaster in X 138 (10-14). 

Sunday, May 11
X-STATIX #13 (11-17)
Perhaps the day after SX 13 (4-10). After a foiled attempt on Henriettas life, Spike makes her part of X-Statix and the team expresses its displeasure with Spikes unilateral decision. Spike then signs a deal with those who want Henrietta dead to set up a battle between X-Statix and a group of super-powered Euro-Trash.
NEW X-MEN #135 (1-14)
A school day at Xaviers. Xavier notes that he is opening the doors to the Institute to non-mutants in three days time. Since X 138 labels Open Day a Wednesday, this then must be a Sunday; X 121 establishes that Xaviers doesnt hold to traditional human school practices, so there may very well be Sunday classes. Quentin Quire has changed considerably in recent weeks. Quire refers to the murder of Jumbo Carnation in X 134 (1-2) as having occurred the other night. Glob Herman probably appears here after UX 416. We see green grass and trees in Westchester and its seasonable enough for Xorns Special Class (which is convening for the first time) to go camping. Because of its special nature, Xorns class may not follow the traditional semester. High on kick, Quentin Quire and his Omega Gang assault a group of mutant-hating youths.

Monday, May 12
NEW X-MEN #135 (15-22)
The day after X 135 (1-14). Xavier discusses the Quire situation telepathically with his X-Men, including Jean, who is still in Hong Kong, and Logan, who isnt necessarily at Xaviers. Xorn continues the camping trip with the Special Class. Green grass and trees.
X-STATIX #13 (18-21)
Perhaps the day after XS 13 (11-17). While in New York to attend the opening of the new X-Statix megastore, X-Statix are attacked by the Euro-Trash and Spider-Man joins the fray. It appears to be warm in Manhattan.
X-STATIX #14 (1-19)
The same day as XS 13 (18-21). X-Statix and Spidey battle the Euro-Trash, who retreat inside the store and hold Henrietta hostage. X-Statix leave the scene, but after Doop shows them how Spike Freemans been manipulating them, the team ties him up and returns to destroy the Euro-Trash and free Henrietta. Spidey kind of gets lost in the shuffle. At a follow-up press conference, Henrietta announces she intends to use X-Statix to continue her charitable work and to change the teams costumes.

Tuesday, May 13
NEW X-MEN #136 (1-21)
The night of the day after X 135 (15-22). The Omega Gang attacks a group of U-Men, and a squad of U-Men attacks the Special Class, who are still on the camping trip. Beak and Angel have sex, apparently for the first time, given the dialog. Xorn defeats the U-Men and the class is taken back to Xaviers school, where the Omega Gang capture Xavier. It is before a Friday. Green grass and trees.

Wednesday, May 14
NEW X-MEN #136 (22)
The morning after X 136 (1-21). It is Open Day at Xaviers, the day that Xavier has invited non-mutants to tour the school for possible enrollment, perhaps for the semester following this. The Omega Gang begin their attack on the school. According to XX 24, this issue occurs after XX 23. Green grass and trees in Westchester.
NEW X-MEN #137
The same day as X 136 (22). Wolverine is back at Xaviers, sporting a goatee once more. The X-Men battle the Omega Gang. In the end, Quentin Quire is defeated and Sophie of the Stepford Cuckoos is killed. Green grass and trees in Westchester.
NEW X-MEN #138 (1-6)
The same day as X 137. The X-Men deal with the aftermath of the Omega Gangs riot on a Wednesday. Green grass and trees in Westchester.
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (21p5-22p1)
One day. Still in Paris, Cannonball and Lila learn of the riot at Xaviers via the internet, so this segment may occur the same day as X 137.

Thursday, May 15
NEW X-MEN #138 (7-9)
It is presumably a Tuesday, six days after X 138 (1-6), but Emma mentions that Sophie died yesterday, making this segment the day after X 137, a Thursday. The remaining Stepford Cuckoos announce that they will depart Xaviers after the upcoming prize-giving ceremony and walk out on Emma; this notice may be months in advance  the Cuckoos may intend to stick it out for the rest of the school year, then transfer to an exclusive school that may not have openings until the summer. Emma notes that she is twenty-seven; this would make her a teenager at the time of her debut in UX 129. Green grass and trees in Westchester.
X-STATIX #14 (20-22)
One day. It is probably a few days after XS 14 (1-19)  long enough for Henrietta to get lots of fan mail, design new costumes, and raise awareness and money for various causes, but no too long, as Spike Freeman is still trussed up in his bathrobe. With Henriettas Q-rating outstripping the rest of the team and demands for her to become team leader, X-Statix decide that she must die.
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (22p2)
One day. Cannonball learns that things with the X-Treme team are serious, though Im not sure what the exact reference is.

Friday, May 16
UNCANNY X-MEN #429
One day. It must be more than a few weeks after UX 422. It is some time after UX 406 (1-21). One early morning, Nightcrawler inexplicably jets off from Westchester and as Xavier prepares to send a team after him, he has an altercation with Juggernaut and a restrained Polaris spouts off at Annie. Several hours later, the X-Men arrive at Isla des Demonas, where they find Kurt participating in a strange ritual. We see a full moon and green grass and trees at Xaviers and bathing suit weather off Florida.
UNCANNY X-MEN #430
The same day as UX 429. It must be more than a few weeks after UX 422. Sammy is abused by his father at his home in Vancouver, where we see green trees. Xorn wants to put Carter in his special class (and reveals some Magneto-like thoughts). Xavier and Annie explore Lornas mind to find the reason for her recent behavior. The X-Men are attacked by demonic creatures as they try to rescue Kurt from Isla des Demonas, Iceman is blown to bits, and the group is engulfed in a powerful telepathic blast.
UNCANNY X-MEN #431
The same day as UX 429. Polaris shows Xavier and Annie her experience in Genosha. Juggernaut and Northstar jet to Vancouver (where we see green trees) to see Sammy. The X-Men battle demon-like creatures. Mystique emerges from Abyss dimensional hole, having been trapped in there since UX 406.
UNCANNY X-MEN #432
The same day as UX 431. Given Xorn has not yet revealed is identity in UX 430 and Xavier is still walking here, this issue must occur before X 146; indeed, since Scott is still with the X-Men, this issue must occur before X 139 (1-20).
UNCANNY X-MEN #433
The same day as UX 432. Juggernauts battle with Alpha Flight results in the accidental injury of Sammys mother. Nightcrawler learns from Azazel the truth behind his teleportation power, and when Xavier, Annie, and Lorna arrive at La Isla des Demonas to search for Carter, Polaris opens a portal to Azazels dimension. Green trees in Vancouver.
UNCANNY X-MEN #434
The same day as UX 433. It is three days before UX 435 (1-18). Seeing what his battle has wrought, Juggernaut gives up the fight with Alpha Flight. Iceman re-forms, Kurt battles Azazel, and the X-Men, Carter, Mystique, Abyss, and Kiwi Black escape from Azazels dimension, with Polaris help. Given Xorn has not yet revealed is identity in UX 430 and Xavier is still walking there, this issue must occur before X 146; indeed, since Scott is still with the X-Men in UX 429, this issue must occur before X 139 (1-20). Mystique must appear here before MYS 1 (9-23). Green grass and trees in Vancouver and Westchester.

Saturday, May 17
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (22p3-23)
One day. Cannonball calls Storm to Paris, where we see green trees. Storm wears the miniskirt we saw in XX 23. He accepts her offer to join the X-Treme team.
X-STATIX #15 (3-11)
One day, some years after XS 15-FB (1-2). As random sniper attacks claim lives throughout the country, Henrietta Hunter takes a break in the Caribbean after all the chat-shows and merchandising deals. X-Statix appear on the scene to kill her, but Lacuna makes the team think twice about that course of action. Green trees in Florida.
WEAPON X v2 #15
One day. Having trouble adjusting to Paiges relationship with Warren, Chamber causes trouble in a Manhattan bar. The X-Men try to talk him down, but when Jono lashes out at them, they subdue him and hand him over to the authorities. Hours later, Brent Jackson shows up in Chambers prison cell to offer him a place in Weapon X. Cyclops must appear here before he runs off in X 139 (1-20); so this story likely occurs before X 138 (10-14). We see green grass and trees and warm picnic weather at Xaviers; the autumn leaves must be topical.

Sunday, May 18
X-STATIX #15 (12-18)
Perhaps the day after XS 15 (3-11). X-Statix hope to rid themselves of Henrietta while on a mission in Afghanistan, but Phat ends up saving her life and El Guapo loses his legs.

Monday, May 19
X-STATIX #15 (19-20) 
Perhaps the day after XS 15 (12-18). The random shootings continue and Henrietta decides to stop the killing.
UNCANNY X-MEN #435 (1-18)
One day, three days after UX 434. Among the recent events Xavier mentions in this issue is a student uprising, so this story must occur after X 138 (1-6). Juggernaut is incarcerated at a high-tech Canadian facility and Jennifer Walters reviews his case as his attorney. As counsel confers with Xavier (sans wheelchair), Kurt, Warren, Bobby, and Paige, the Rhino (being subjected to some kind of experiment here sometime after his apprehension in PPSM2 50) attempts to bust out of the facility. In the melee that ensues, Cain is accidentally released from his bonds and battles and defeats Rhino, then he passes up an opportunity to flee and instead surrenders to a facility guard. Green grass and trees in Vancouver.

Tuesday, May 20
UNCANNY X-MEN #435 (19-20)
Probably the day after UX 435 (1-18), judging by the fact that people from pages 1-18 are now wearing different clothes. Cains surrender and the situation with the Rhino result in a reduced sentence for Cain and his release from the Canadian facility. Cain and Jennifer become friendly.
X-STATIX #15 (21-22)
Perhaps the day after XS 15 (19-20). At a press conference, Henrietta announces that she will stop the random killings by accepting the position of Secretary of Homeland Defense. Green trees in Washington, DC.

Wednesday, May 21
UNCANNY X-MEN #435 (21-23)
The morning after UX 435 (19-20). Cain and Jen are in bed after having spent the night together in a locale with green grass and trees. A figure looking like Juggernaut appears outside their room.
UNCANNY X-MEN #436
The same day as UX 435 (21-23). Given that A3 65 leads to Jens mass destruction of property in A3 73-75 and the fact that she holds that kind of destruction against Juggernaut in UX 435, this story probably occurs before A3 65. Because Xavier is walking here, and because the list of things he relates as overwhelming in UX 435 does not include Magnetos destruction of the school, this story must occur before X 142.

Thursday, May 22
NEW X-MEN #138 (10-14)
A Thursday. Xorn helps Quentin Quire cast off his physical body and achieve another plane of existence; it is not known how long Quire may have spent at Xaviers in a catatonic state, but it is presumed that this is the Thursday of the week following X 138 (7-9). Xavier notes that the school will be closing for the summer in exactly six days  this may be the date that all students who attend Xaviers during the regular academic year should be gone; as we see in NM2, the school does remain open for relatively few students in the summer. He also notes that after the break, he will step down as headmaster. It is likely that this segment occurs after WX2 15, given Cyclops appearance in that issue. Green grass and trees in Westchester.
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN v2 #57 (1-7)
One school day. Peter notes that it is getting closer to summer vacation and that he only works as a teacher every Tuesday and Thursday; the latter reference may be just to his schedule for this semester, not for his entire teaching job to this point  regardless, this implies that it is either Tuesday or Thursday. Peters birthday is in a day or two. We see a lightning storm at night.

Friday, May 23
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN v2 #57 (8-23)
The rainy early morning after ASM2 57 (1-7). Spider-Man joins the Fantastic Four (Reeds and Sues costumes are mismatched color-wise, but they both conform to the design introduced in FF3 40), Iron Man (in an armor not seen elsewhere), and Thor (in classic costume, probably after the Reigning, given that he appears in PPSM2 53 during the Asgard-over-Manhattan storyline) in a battle with the Mindless Ones in Manhattan. Dr. Strange shows up too late to prevent the return of Dormammu.
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN v2 #58
The same early morning as ASM2 57. As the heroes battle the Mindless Ones, Strange attempts to destroy Dormammu, but in the process he and Spidey end up in a plane outside of time and space and Spidey witnesses scenes from the past and future.
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #500
The same day as ASM2 58. Led by Strange, Spidey battles his way through time to end up moments before the arrival of Dormammu and saves the day, helping the heroes drive the Mindless Ones back to their dimension. Reed is not disfigured, so this story should occur before FF3 68 (1p1). Cyclops probably appears here before X 138 (16-23). It is Peters birthday (so this story should occur at the same time of year as S-M 21), and Strange gives him a present  five minutes to speak to Uncle Ben, whos been snatched out of time. We see a full moon, and M.J. mentions the moonlight specifically.
NEW MUTANTS v2 #1 (10-25)
One school day. Rejected on her sixteenth birthday by her father and her classmates, Sofia Mantega destroys one of her fathers supermarkets and is thrown in jail. Dani Moonstar shows up to take Sofia to Xaviers, which is publicly known as a school for mutants with bad publicity, a clue that this segment occurs after the riot in X 138 (1-6). It is clear that Dani does not live at Xaviers, but rather in Colorado. It is a Friday in May. We see green grass and trees in Boulder.
NEW X-MEN #138 (15)
The day after X 138 (10-14), a Friday. Emma Frost goes clothes shopping with Angel. According to X 140, this segment occurs a few days before X 139 (21-22).

Saturday, May 24
NEW X-MEN #138 (16-23)
The day after X 138 (15), a Saturday. We see a prize-giving ceremony at Xaviers  this is a year-end ceremony that probably occurs between the end of the spring session and the beginning of the summer session shown in NM2 2. Angel informs Beak that shes pregnant with his child; this revelation so soon after their apparent first sexual encounter in X 136 (1-21) is an indication that Angels physiology is radically different from a normal humans; this is confirmed by Beaks statement in X 141 that there is a life cycle of, like, only five days between the sex and the birth, but this doesnt mean that Angels pregnancy lasts only that long  it cant be less than five days after X 136 (1-21), given the other temporal references in this run of issues. That night, Jean Grey returns to Xaviers with Dust, who she may have retrieved after Dust spent some time in India after X 133. Jean finds Scott and Emma in a compromising situation; this segment probably occurs after ASM 500. That Jean is fetching mutants for Xaviers may be a clue that this segment occurs before NM2 2, where Dani gets the job of recruiter. Green grass and trees in Westchester.
NEW X-MEN #139 (1-20)
The same night as X 138 (16-23). An angry Jean mucks around with Emmas mind and the X-Men grow concerned about Jeans Phoenix power. Cyclops takes off. The Stepford Cuckoos state that school is over for the summer, implying that, while the school itself is to close on the upcoming Wednesday, classes are already over. We see green grass and trees at Xaviers.

Sunday, May 25

Monday, May 26: Memorial Day
NEW MUTANTS v2 #2
One day shortly after NM2 1 (10-25)  at least long enough for a train ride from Colorado to New York; it is unlikely that NM2 1 (10-25) occurred yesterday, as noted in this issue. NM2 2-FB is noted as having occurred last year, although this may be a reference to last school year. Dani and Sofia arrive at Xaviers, where they meet Professor X, who notes that it is the start of the summer session and that some students have gone home for the summer. This is an indication that this issue occurs after the prize-giving ceremony in X 138 (16-23). The fact that some students remain for classes appears to contradict the statement in X 138 (10-14) that the school would close for the summer. Xavier is still here, apparently before the time he planned to leave the school, as noted in X 138 (10-14). Dani is no longer a teenager, but it wasnt long ago that she was. Dani arranges for Sofia to room with Laurie Collins and agrees to be Xaviers recruiter  presumably after Jeans assumption of that role through X 138 (16-23). Northstar appears here. Green grass and trees and jacket weather at Xaviers.

Tuesday, May 27
NEW X-MEN #139 (21-22)
One night. According to X 140, this segment occurs a few days after X 138 (15). Beast finds Emmas diamond body smashed to pieces.

Wednesday, May 28
NEW X-MEN #140 (1-14)
The day after X 139 (21-22). It is sometime after XX 23 (17-22). Summer vacation is cancelled until further notice, while Bishop and Sage are called in to investigate Emma Frosts murder. That summer vacation reference may be for the benefit of those students who havent yet left for the summer; I have summer classes actually having just started (in NM2 2) by this time. Late this day, the Stepford Cuckoos note that school ought to have closed for summer by now (at least for those who dont take summer classes), so it is likely that this is the day the school was scheduled to close, six days after X 138 (10-14). Scott is still absent and Nightcrawler is here. Green grass and trees at Xaviers.

Thursday, May 29
NEW X-MEN #140 (15-22)
The day after X 140 (1-14). Bishop and Sage continue their investigation, and Angels brood of larvae are discovered.
NEW X-MEN #141
The same day as X 140 (15-22). Angels brood hatches. The X-Men discover that Angel and Beak were set up to take the fall for Emmas murder by Esme and a partner whose identity remains unknown, as Esme mindwipes Bishop and Sage to escape. Phoenix fuses Emmas diamond pieces back together, allowing Emmas disembodied spirit to return to her body. The missing Scott is now the prime suspect. Although not shown, presumably the lockdown at Xaviers is lifted at this point, and Xavier may relieve Bishop and Sage of their services. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. Esme makes another reference to summer.

Friday, May 30
NEW MUTANTS v2 #3 (1-19)
One day. While Magma lays in a coma (where shes been since just after UX 423), Dani recruits a mutant with decaying power in Atlanta, where we see green grass and trees. School is in session, both at Xaviers (where Beast is teaching as part of summer session) and at a public high school (its not summer vacation yet, and it cant be a holiday), where student Kevin Ford hasnt reported for the last two days. There is a reference to finals at the high school, and Dani claims to represent a summer program. We see short sleeves at Xaviers.
X-TREME X-MEN #25
One day. It is probably a weekday during the college year. Given Kurts conversation with Logan in W3 6, it appears that W3 6 must occur before this issue. In freeing Stryker from incarceration, Deathstrike makes it appear that Stryker was killed in an airplane explosion by the X-Men. We see snow in the Rockies and green trees in Kentucky, where Cannonball has invited Storm, Bishop, Sage, and Wolverine (sans goatee, perhaps after X 141). The X-Men investigate the site of the plane crash. Kitty sees her school psychologist, and that night, she is abducted from the Belles of Hell by Deathstrike and Stryker.
X-TREME X-MEN #26
The same day as XX 25. The X-Treme team battle Strykers troops in the snowy Rockies and take captives as they try to figure out what Stryker is up to. Stryker tries to break Kittys will, but fails. Deathstrike is forced to try to kill Stryker by the man who runs Mount Haven, who views Stryker as a threat. Stryker escapes with Kitty in hand.
X-TREME X-MEN #27 (1-13)
The same night as XX 26. Shadowcat phases cross-country as the earth as it spins on its axis, causing Storm to lose control in the Rockies, creating a blizzard and undoing all the good work....accomplished these past months in physical therapy. Waning crescent moon.

Saturday, May 31
NEW MUTANTS v2 #3 (20-22)
The day after NM2 3 (1-19). Kevin Ford is examined at Xaviers and Xavier reveals the comatose Magma to Dani, who is wearing the same clothes she wore the previous day  an indication that this scene may occur in the wee hours of the morning after NM2 3 (1-19), technically the next day.
X-TREME X-MEN #27 (14-23)
The day after XX 27 (1-13). Kitty finds herself in Mt. Haven, where we see green grass and trees and warm weather.
X-TREME X-MEN #28
The same day as XX 27 (14-23). Stryker and Deathstrike defeat Kitty and the X-Treme team at Mt. Haven, where we see green trees and warm weather. Cannonball vows to save the day.
X-TREME X-MEN #29
The same day as XX 28. Cannonball fights Deathstrike after she seemingly kills Logan, then he faces a brainwashed Storm. Bishop faces a brainwashed Sage. Stryker shows Kitty the truth behind Mt. Haven, then strikes her and Reverend Paul down. Green grass and trees and warm weather in Washington state.
X-TREME X-MEN #30
The same day as XX 29. Logan recovers and many of Mt. Havens nannite-infested residents die when Paul is out of commission. Stryker and Kitty discover that Paul is a cybernetic sentient and Stryker sacrifices his freedom to keep Paul contained. That night in Chicago, the X-Men hang at the Belles of Hell and Kitty considers running for alderman in a municipal election this fall. Green grass and trees in Washington state.
NEW MUTANTS v2 #4 (2-11)
One day. This segment may well occur the same day as NM2 3 (20-22). Xavier sends Dani (in a change of clothing from NM2 3) to Chicago to recruit David Alleyne, who turns out to be an acquaintance of Karma. (It must be after the lockdown from X 140-141 has been lifted.) Shan graduates from the University of Chicago, where we see light clothing and a commencement ceremony. Xavier checks up on Magma, who is still in a coma. Kevin Ford is given a clean bill of health; it may be quite a while after his arrival at Xaviers, given the comment, Its about time we got you into class. Green grass and trees and light clothing at Xaviers. Shan notes that summer session starts Monday.

Sunday, June 1
X-STATIX #16 (1-3)
One day, long enough after XS 15 (12-18) for El Guapo to recover from the loss of his legs. As the random killings continue, Henrietta introduces new X-Statix costumes. Her photo is taken for the Time Magazine cover seen in XS 16 (4-).

Monday, June 2
NEW MUTANTS v2 #4 (12-24)
The Monday after NM2 4 (2-11). It is the first day of class during summer session at the University of Chicago. David is outed as a mutant and decides to accompany Dani back to Xaviers. Shan and her siblings decide to join them. Green grass and trees in Chicago.
NEW MUTANTS v2 #5 (1-4)
Probably the same night as NM2 4 (12-24). Donald Pierce has a meeting of the Reavers, now a group of mutant-hating humans. Among their recruits is Josh Foley. Sofias father is in New York on business and wants no contact with his daughter.

Tuesday, June 3
NEW MUTANTS v2 #5 (5-24)
The day after NM2 5 (1-4). Logan instructs a class in self- defense at the Institute, while Xavier offers Shan a job there. Shan suggests that her siblings get the summer off before returning to school and Xavier notes that things are fairly quiet during the summer. Dani and Shan take Sofia, Laurie, Kevin, and David into Manhattan and the four kids are lured into an ambush by the Reavers, with Laurie getting critically wounded. Green grass and trees at Xaviers.
NEW MUTANTS v2 #6
The same day as NM2 5. Josh uses his healing power to save Laurie and Shan arrives and chases off the Reavers. Kevin uses his death touch on Pierce and Dani stops him from killing the cyborg by using her illusion power. Pierce is taken into custody and the kids return to Xaviers, where we see green grass and trees. Josh returns home, but is spurned by friends and family as a mutant and, with nowhere else to go, arrives at Xaviers. Frightened by his actions, Kevin leaves Xaviers and Dani decides to quit, branding herself a failure as a teacher. But Shan, Xavier, and the remaining kids convince her to stay. Since Xavier is walking here, this segment must occur before X 146 and thus probably before X 142.

Wednesday, June 4
NEW MUTANTS v2 #7  FB
One school day at Xaviers, sometime between NM2 6 and NM2 7 (1-15). Josh Foley attends classes taught by Warren Worthington, Dani Moonstar, and Shan Coy Manh. Xaviers school is whole and functioning, so this story must occur before X 142, the beginning of the story that leads to the destruction of the school.
X-STATIX #16 (4-7)
One day, long enough after XS 16 (1-3) for Time Magazine to publish Henriettas photo. Henrietta hopes to stumble upon the random killers.

Thursday, June 5
X-STATIX #16 (8-9)
One day. Henrietta tries to get the dead to help her find the random killers, but Dead Girl blocks her attempt.
NEW MUTANTS v2 #7 (1-15)
One school day at Xaviers, where we see green grass and autumn leaves (which must be topical). This segment occurs some days before XX 34. Josh Foley writes home about his life at Xaviers (he mentions classes with Hank McCoy, Emma Frost, and Tom Corsi). He notes that he hasnt written since coming to Xaviers (implying a while has passed) and that he saved Lauries life this summer, more clues that some time has passed since NM2 6, but given Xaviers chronology, this story is more likely to occur very shortly after NM2 6. Josh uses his healing power to jump-start Magmas brain, lifting her out of her coma. Unfortunately, when she awakens she blasts a big hole in the school and runs away.

Friday, June 6
NEW MUTANTS v2 #7 (16-18)
The day after NM2 7 (1-15). It is two weeks before NM2 7 (19-22). With Jean and Northstar present, Xavier gives Josh detention for his reckless act of the day before. We see green grass and the last of autumn leaves falling from bare trees at Xaviers.
X-STATIX #16 (10-14)
One day. The random killings have been going on for a few weeks, and Henrietta is held accountable for the lack of progress in apprehending the killers. Lacuna makes a pass at Guy and is rebuffed, then she receives documents that would destroy Spike Freemans reputation.
X-TREME X-MEN #31 (1-2) 
One night. In Los Angeles, Cutter, Porous, Dervish and company cause a car accident in which a girl named Marie is seriously injured. Mention is made of the state championship for cheerleading.

Saturday, June 7
X-STATIX #16 (15-22)
One day. Lacuna tells Guy about the documents she received and how they would implicate not only Spike, but Edie as well. Guy confronts Spike about it and ends up killing him. Guy catches up to Lacuna, who gets shot by the sniper, Mister Code. Green grass and trees in Washington, DC and California, where it is warm enough for outdoor swimming.
X-STATIX #17
The same day as XS 16 (15-22). Because Henrietta is Secretary of Homeland Defense, it is likely that this story occurs before IM3 73, the storyline that leads to Tony Starks bid for Secretary of Defense.
X-TREME X-MEN #31 (3-22)
Probably the day after XX 31 (1-2). A Genoshan survivor slays a group of black marketeers in east Africa, and Marie recovers in a Los Angeles hospital. Val Cooper gives a presentation on the mutant threat at the presidential ranch in Texas, where Storm and Remy are undercover and we see green grass and trees and a barbecue; it is unclear whether the president appears here before or after X 150 (1-31). On assignment for the L.A. Division of X-Corp, Bishop and Sage deal with a dangerous mutant, then the duo check in on Rogue and the new life shes adopted in L.A., where we see green grass and trees as well. That night, they go to a club and meet up with Sam, Lila Cheney, and an anti-mutant terrorist with a bomb.
X-TREME X-MEN #32 (1-17) 
The same night as XX 31 (3-22). This segment is referred to as having occurred the other night in XX 33 (5-13). Sam removes the terrorist from the club, then takes off with Lila. Rogue apprehends the terrorist, Marie Dancanto. Storm and Remy blow their cover at the presidential ranch. Green grass and trees in L.A and Texas. Full moon.
X-TREME X-MEN #33 (14-16)
The same night as XX 32 (1-17). At the presidential compound, Storm outlines her plan for diffusing the growing rift between human and mutant. As it picks up right from the scene in Texas in XX 32, this scene must occur out of sequence from the rest of this issue because more time passes in the Marie Dancanto storyline. From the conversation, it appears obvious that this segment occurs before X 142, the storyline that leads to Magnetos victory. Green trees and warm weather in Texas. Full moon.

Sunday, June 8
X-TREME X-MEN #32 (18-23)
The morning after XX 32 (1-17). Marie Dancanto tells Rogue her story of hatred for mutants.

Monday, June 9
X-TREME X-MEN #33 (1, 3-4)
Perhaps the day after XX 32 (18-23)  enough time has to have passed for groups of people to organize support of and opposition to Marie Dancanto, who appears in court to plead not guilty to her attempted suicide bombing in XX 32 (1-17).
MYSTIQUE #1 (1-8)
One night. It must be a weeknight, as Charles Xavier appears on Nightline. Jean is at Xaviers. We learn that Xavier has covert operatives in the world and that one has been killed on a mission.

Tuesday, June 10
MYSTIQUE #1 (9-23)
The early morning after MYS 1 (1-8). At 2:54 AM, Xavier arrives at Forges apartment in Baltimore to ask him to find Mystique. From the dialogue, it appears that Xavier and Forge have been out of touch for quite a while, an indication that this segment occurs quite a while after Forges attendance at the wedding in UX 425 (17-23). At 3:12 AM, Mystique is on a mission in Washington DC. She must appear here following the Draco storyline in UX 433.
MYSTIQUE #2
The same early morning as MYS 1 (9-23). At 3:27 AM, Forge discovers the whereabouts of Mystique, who is captured by government agents at 3:29 AM. At 4:36 AM, the captive Mystique awakens in a DHS flying justice unit, where she faces Johnny Kitano, a mutant whose mission is to eliminate mutant threats to the government. Mystique is rescued by Xavier, who is disguised as Magneto. Full moon. 
MYSTIQUE #3
The same day as MYS 2. Xavier and Forge send Mystique to Cuba on a clandestine mission to destroy two mutant-killing robots. Once there, she meets her handler, Shortpack. Green vegetation in New York.
MYSTIQUE #4
The same day as MYS 3. Mystique insinuates her way to Luis Disovil, the man who purchased the Sentinels and is conducting experiments on Cuban mutants. She assumes his identity, only to face a band of freedom fighters, led by Lazaro Rivera.
MYSTIQUE #5
The same night as MYS 4. Mystique sides with the freedom fighters and battles Disovils soldiers. She finds the kidnapped children, only to learn that she must kill Lazaros little sister Evangelina to stop the Sentinels.
MYSTIQUE #6 (1-15)
The same night as MYS 5. Lazaro kills Evangelina and kills himself. Mystique, the rebels, and the freed mutants evacuate Disovils base before the Sentinels destoy it. Mystique reports back to Shortpack.
X-TREME X-MEN #33 (5-13)
Perhaps the day after XX 33 (3-4). XX 32 (1-17) is referred to as having occurred the other night. Rogue has a nightmare early this morning, then the X-Corp lawyer shows up to try to talk Rogue and Sam (who has returned with Lila), who he believes to be baseline human, into selling Rogues home. Lila ports Bishop to New York.
X-TREME X-MEN #33 (17-23)
The same night as XX 33 (5-13). Rogue and Sam attack Cutter, Porous, Dervish and company at their beach hangout while Sage arrives at X-Corp Los Angeles, which she discovers is the employer of the lawyer. Full moon.

Wednesday, June 11
MYSTIQUE #6 (16-22)
The morning after MYS 6 (1-15). At 12:31 am, Mystique is asked to be a double agent by a man in a bar in Santiago de Cuba. Later that morning (the next morning), Mystique arrives at her safehouse in Brooklyn, where Xavier congratulates her on a job well done. Green vegetation in Brooklyn.
X-TREME X-MEN #34
Probably the day after XX 33 (17-23). It is some days after NM2 7 (1-15). Magma arrives in L.A. and she and Sam visit Roberto at X-Corp. The charges against Cutter, Porous, Dervish, and company are dismissed in court, an indication that its a weekday. That night, Rogue fights Revenant and Manacle and tails them back to X-Corp, where she confronts Roberto. Green trees in southern California. Full moon.
X-TREME X-MEN #35 (1-22)
The same night as XX 34. Roberto uses X-Corp employees Skitz and Stringfellow to keep Rogue and Sam occupied while he and Amara investigate X-Corps link to the shady deals in Valle Soleada. Elias Bogan, who is calling the shots behind the scenes, sends Cutter, Porous and Dervish against Rogue and Sam, but they are defeated. Vazhin informs Storm that the government has provisionally accepted her proposal to form the XSE strike force, but first she and Remy must infiltrate a mutant gladiator arena run by Tullemore Voge in Tokyo. Green grass and trees in California and Texas. Full moon.

Thursday, June 12
X-TREME X-MEN #35 (23)
One day, shortly after XX 35 (1-22). Roberto holds a press conference, Marie apologizes to Rogue, and Sage and Bishop look into Elias Bogan.
X-TREME X-MEN #36  FB (2-6)
The same evening as XX 35 (23). It is several days before XX 36. Ororo and Remy return to California and reunite with the rest of the X-Treme team, and Storm informs them they are now XSE  mutant police. She also informs the team shes going solo to infiltrate Voges Tokyo arena. Green trees and warm weather in southern California.

Friday, June 13
X-TREME X-MEN #36  FB (7-36)
One night shortly after XX 36-FB (2-6). Storm meets up with Yukio in Tokyo and they infiltrate Voges mutant gladiator arena, where they meet Masato Koga, who knows their identities. Koga tricks Storm into entering the arena battle between Silkworm and Musclehead, only to become the exalted champ. Full moon.
X-TREME X-MEN #37  FB (2-15)
The same night as XX 36-FB (7-36). After tasting victory in the arena, Storm snatches Yukio and flees back to Yukios apartment, where they talk about the state of affairs between humans and mutants.
MYSTIQUE #7 (1-10) 
One night. Mystique and Shortpack steal information from the palace of North Koreas Kim Jong Il. Full moon.

Saturday, June 14
MYSTIQUE #7 (11-21)
The morning after MYS 7 (1-10). At Mystiques Brooklyn safehouse, Xavier tells her that the North Koreans were planning to steal bigpox from Harrison Taylor, a scientist in South Africa, her next destination. On her way out at JFK Airport, Mystique again encounters Shepard, the man she met at the Cuban bar, who offers her another chance to be a double agent; she refuses and the man reports to his boss, the Quiet Man. Xavier is standing in this segment (even though its a telepathic projection, Mystique had to ask if he were real), so this story must occur before X 146 (and thus before X 142); it is likely before Xavier announces his intention to step down as headmaster in X 138 (10-14). Green grass and trees in Westchester.
X-TREME X-MEN #37  FB (16-36)
The day after XX 37-FB (2-15). Strong Guy shows up at Yukios apartment and tries to dissuade Storm from joining the Fellowship of the Arena, in which he has been involved since X-Factor broke up. Storm does not heed his advice and joins the Fellowship, only to face Callisto.
MYSTIQUE #8
The same night as MYS 7 (11-21). As the Quiet Man and Shepard track her, Mystique arrives in Johannesburg at 10:14 PM SAST. After reconnoitering with Shortpack, she infiltrates Taylors compound, only to discover him dead. She battles the killer, the Host, who infects Mystique with a biological agent and takes off with Taylors bigpox. Green grass and trees in South Africa.

[June 14-16  room for MYS 9-10]

Tuesday, June 17
NEW MUTANTS v2 #7 (19-22)
One day, two weeks after NM2 7 (16-18). Joshs parents arrive at Xaviers, but instead of retrieving him, they name the school his guardian and leave without him. Xavier is still standing. Trees are now bare, with the last leaves falling from them, but the grass at Xaviers is still green.

[June 17-20  room for NM2 8-12]

Wednesday, June 18?
X-TREME X-MEN #36 ~ X-TREME X-MEN #37
One day, several days after XX 36-FB (2-6). A gladiator star, Storm enters Voges Tokyo arena for a contest.

Thursday, June 19

Friday, June 20
NEW X-MEN #142
One night. The narration notes Emmas murder in X 139 (21-22) as having occurred last month. As this issue leads to Xaviers crippling in X 146, it must occur after MYS 7 (11-21), UX 436, and NM2 7. Wolverine (sans goatee, and probably wearing the new outfit with yellow stripes under his jacket) happens to find Scott at the Hellfire Club trying to get drunk. He tells Scott the right after he left [actually it was a few days after, as noted in X 139 (21-22)], Emma was shot, and that Scotts the prime suspect. Sabretooth is also at the club, and it appears that hes on his own reconnaissance  he may be here after WX2 12. Logan is at the Hellfire Club to meet with Fantomex to begin a mission to take down the Weapon Plus program, and he tries to get Cyclops to join them. 

Saturday, June 21
NEW X-MEN #143
Probably the early morning after X 142; since Scott is expected to have a hangover, it is likely several hours after X 142, but it is still dark out. Logan, Scott, and Fantomex infiltrate the evolutionary engineering facility, the World. There they encounter AIM agents who have been attacked by Weapon XV.
NEW X-MEN #144
The same early morning as X 143. Inside the World, Logan, Scott, and Fantomex encounter Weapon XV, who breaks free and heads for the Weapon Plus space station. Full moon.
NEW X-MEN #145
The same day as X 144. It is mere days before X 148 (6-22). Logan, Scott, and Fantomex follow Weapon XV to the Weapon Plus space station, where Logan accesses files concerning his identity, then, desperate and disturbed, he blows up the station.
NEW X-MEN #146
The same day as X 145. It is days before X 149 and three days before X 150 (1-31). Having escaped the satellite in a spacecraft, Scott and Fantomex crash into the Pacific Ocean. Beast and Emma head out to retrieve them, but their aircraft is sabotaged. Phoenix departs for space to retrieve Logan, who she finds alive. Jean and Wolverine discover that the Weapon Plus space program is Asteroid M, which also is rigged to explode. Xavier formally meets Dust, so this issue cant occur long after UX 138 (16-23). Dust attacks and disables Cerebra at the order of Xorn, who cripples Xavier and reveals himself to be Magneto. Xavier states that he still hopes to step down this summer as headmaster of the Institute. Green grass and trees at Xaviers.
NEW X-MEN #147  FB (20-21)
The same day as X 146. After taking Xavier prisoner, Magneto destroys the Xavier Institute.

Sunday, June 22
NEW X-MEN #147  FB (2-3)
The day after X 147FB (20-21). Magneto tears Manhattan apart.
NEW X-MEN #147
The same day as X 147-FB (2-3). Magneto notes that its taken one day to take over Manhattan, a good bit of which he destroys in this issue at great cost of human life. There is no sign of Asgard above Manhattan, and surely Thor would have opposed the carnage wrought by Magneto in this issue if he were around, so this issue must occur after the Reigning storyline in T2; one might argue that Magneto used the disappearance of Asgard as an opportunity to play his final hand. He refers to the time he spent masquerading as Xorn as all those months  indeed, Ive placed this story a little over a year after Xorn was invited to Xaviers in X 01 (30-42). It is not known where New Yorks heroes or the other X-Men are all this time.
NEW X-MEN #148 (1-5)
It must be the same day as X 147. Aboard the hurtling Asteroid M, Logan and Jean have 24 hours before the station hits the surface of the sun.

Monday, June 23
NEW X-MEN #148 (6-22)
The day (24 hours) after X 148 (1-5). It is mere days after X 145, but perhaps at least two days after X 147, since Magneto notes that each day, more and more mutants flock to my cause. No other stories can occur in New York during the time Magneto has converted it to New Genosha. Magneto gloats over his victory, orders Esme to find the remaining X-Men via Cerebra, and orders the mass extermination of all remaining humans in New Genosha tomorrow. Meanwhile, Logan guts Jean to put an end to her pain as Asteroid M burns up at the sun.

Tuesday, June 24
NEW X-MEN #149
The rainy day after X 148 (6-22). It is days after X 142. As Magneto drives New Yorks humans to their deaths, he accidentally kills Basilisk and loses the support of Angel and Beak, the latter of whom is sent to his death. Beak survives and is taken in by a mutant resistance force that includes Esmes sisters, Dust, Cyclops, and Fantomex. As Magneto gloats before the imprisoned Xavier, Charles is contacted telepathically by Jean. Green trees in New York.
NEW X-MEN #150 (1-31)
The same day as X 149. It is three days after X 146. Logan and Jean are resurrected by the release of the Phoenix Consciousness and they hie back to earth, pick up Emma and Hank in the Pacific Ocean, and head to Manhattan, where Magneto faces restless followers, mutineering sidekicks, and an attack by Fantomex and Cyclops. In the ensuing melee, Xavier is freed and Esme is killed by Magneto. Magneto sends an electromagnetic pulse through Jeans body and it kills her. Logan decapitates Magneto. We see green grass and trees and rain in New York and Washington, DC.

			*	*	*

Calender
Posted by PopularLoser on December 19, 2003 at 11:12:30:

I love the idea of a Marvel Universe Calender. When will one be posted on this site?

			*	*	*

Re: Calender
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 20, 2003 at 22:36:03:
In Reply to: Calender 
posted by PopularLoser on December 19, 2003 at 11:12:30:

> I love the idea of a Marvel Universe Calender. When will one be posted on this site?

If you mean a calendar covering the MU from FF 1 to the present, it's not likely for years. But if you mean a calendar covering the last couple of years of the Marvel Universe, next month (I hope).

--Paul
(If you're interested in the calendar concept, check out the Avengers Year-By-Year feature at http://www.avengersassemble.us/bourcier/bourciertoc.html. Unabashed plug.)

			*	*	*

WARPATH...WASP...WATER WITCH
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 19, 2003 at 14:03:23:

new entries marked **


WARPATH/JAMES PROUDSTAR 

UX@ 15
**XF@ 6
XFOR 1


WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM

A 100
**H2 154 (5p2-5p4)
M/FEA 5

.. .. .. .. ..

SWII 5
**FF 285 (8p3)
A 262

similarly 
. HERCULES [GREEK GOD]
. SWII 5
. **FF 285
. A 262 

.. .. .. .. ..

WCA2 32
**WCA2 33
**WCA2 34
WCA2 35

.. .. .. .. ..

AWC@ 4
**T@ 14 (29p1, 30p1, 30p3)
FF@ 22


WATER WITCH/

ROM 28
**CA 389 (18/19p1) 2nd from right mid way back, beside Anaconda
**CA 390 (2/3p1) left most on upper deck
**CA 391 (4) visible to the readers right and above the base of Superias platform. Behind and to the readers left of Screaming Mimi.
IM@ 12


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#142

			*	*	*

Brother Voodoo
Posted by Colin Hicks on December 23, 2003 at 12:13:17:

Is the entry for Jericho Drumm up-to-date? And is the BLADE title listed in that entry a one-shot, or should there be an issue number? Lastly, are his appearances reasonably easy to get hold of, or have I got a difficult search ahead of me?

Thanks in advance,

Colin 

			*	*	*

Re: Brother Voodoo
Posted by Cook on December 23, 2003 at 13:32:38:

In Reply to: Brother Voodoo posted by Colin Hicks on December 23, 2003 at 12:13:17:

I had the most trouble with 1 of the Tales of The Zombie magazines. The Marvel mags from the '70s became popular a little while ago, and locating specific issues can be tricky.
Other than that, they wasn't anything that was too difficult to obtain...

			*	*	*

One more thing...
Posted by Cook on December 23, 2003 at 13:34:27:

In Reply to: Brother Voodoo posted by Colin Hicks on December 23, 2003 at 12:13:17:

If I recall correctly, the Blade issue is the "Blade: Crescent City Blues" one-shot...

			*	*	*

MARY JANE WATSON-PARKER...WAYOPEX...DALE WEST 
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 23, 2003 at 16:43:38:

new entries marked **


WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE

S-M 63
**PPTSS 229
DB 3-BTS


WAYOPEX

**Q 26 (20p3-21p1)
Q 35


WEST, DALE
**BG 1
BG 2
**BG 3
**BG 4
M/TIO 85
**M/SH3 11/2 (9p3, 9p6)


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#143

			*	*	*

Ghost Rider/Wolverine/Gambit
Posted by David Hall on December 25, 2003 at 11:14:37:

Hi,
I am in the process of re-reading all of the 1990's x-books, and trying to place everything in my collection, that is not listed on the MCP in chronology. I have a question about some Ghost Rider's from 1995, and I am asking because they are not listed in the MCP, but not in the 1993-94 gap either.

Specifically, I would like to know if anyone has a good theory about where Ghost Rider 3 #57, 67, and 68 occur in Wolverine (and Gambit's in the latter two issues) chronology. Same question as far as Ghost Rider, Wolverine, Punisher: Dark Design.

57 is coverdated Jan 95, and 67 and 68 are Nov and Dec 95. I am sure that when I re-read 1995 I can come up with my own theory, but I'd like to start the discussion now.....

Thanks,

Dave

			*	*	*

M'KONI "MARY" WHEELER...WHITE DRAGON II...WHITE QUEEN
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 27, 2003 at 08:14:13:

new entries marked **


WHEELER, M'KONI "MARY"

**DD245-FB (8p4)
**DD245 (23p6-23p7)
BP3 31

Similarly...
..WHEELER
..**DD245-FB (8p1-8p4) 
..DD 245

.. BLACK PANTHER/T'CHALLA
.. The Black Panther is also in the DD245-FB (8p4);but I have no idea whereabouts in BP's chronology to place it. It's "years" before DD 245.


WHITE DRAGON II

**ASM 184
ASM 185


WHITE QUEEN/EMMA FROST

GENX 9
**UX 323 (18p2-18p4) Although it could be all in Bobbys head, I tend toward this being Emmas psychic presence, playing head games with Bobby. The fact that in UX 324 she knew without answering that Bobby was phoning would seem to indicate that she was keeping in some kind of psychic contact.
UX 324


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#144

			*	*	*

Wolverine #87-90
Posted by David Hall on December 27, 2003 at 16:29:48:

I noticed a problem with Gambit's chronology. It lists W2 87 and 89 as happening way too early.

in 89, Gambit tells Sabretooth that he's back from visiting Logan and that Logan is on his way. This issue is an (almost) direct lead-in to W2 90. The television talking about serial killer Linus, the fact that Logan is on his way back to the mansion, etc. proves this. 

Also the line of Gambit's in w2 89, 
(that I mentioned above) shows that Remy is indeed just coming back from his trip (begun in W2 87) and has not been at the mansion in between these issues.

Okay, basically Gambit's chronology currently reads that in between W2 89 and Legion Quest he appears in X-Men Unlimited 7,the Bishop l.s.,X 38, the Rogue l.s., and Marvel Holiday special 1994.

As wolv 2 90 occurs at the same time as legionquest, this is impossible. Therefore I propse that W2 87 and 89 be moved back in Gambit's chronology as such:

X 38
R 1-4
M/Holiday 1994
* W2 87
* W2 89
X 40

This requires NO changes to Wolverine's chronology, which correctly reads:
W2 87
W2 88
FF 394-BTS
FF 395
W2 89
X 40
W2 90
X:PRIME

I suspect that MCP 152-155 occus between W2 87 and 88, but since those are in the 1994 gap, we can leave that issue alone for now.

David

			*	*	*

UX 319
Posted by David Hall on December 27, 2003 at 18:52:32:

Why is Rogue listed as BTS in UX 319?
She is quite clearly in the actual issue.....
Also this is at the wrong spot in her chronology, as it happens after the rogue limited series....

We know this because she says to Iceman "No Problem Sugah. After everything that's been happening in my life--" And the caption box says See the upcoming rogue limited series for details.....


Rogue's chornology should read:
X 38
R 1-4
UX 319
M/Hol 1994

By the way, M/Hol 1994 is also listed as BTS for Rogue, but she is quite clearly in the story.

Dave

			*	*	*

M/Hol 1994
Posted by Dvaid Hall on December 27, 2003 at 19:28:49:
In Reply to: UX 319 
posted by David Hall on December 27, 2003 at 18:52:32:

oh I meant that Rogue was in the 6th story in M/Hol 1994. She is behind the scenes in the first story, so lets leave that as a BTS.

By the way the 6th story (The Christmas story) doesn't seem to be in the MCP. It features the X-Men and Starjammers, and Lilandra. It's not much of a story, but it still should be listed.

(I have no idea if this "Christmas" refernce is topical)

M/Hol 1994 /6

As told by the narrator, in "Night before Christmas" poem style....

Professor X senses someone approching the mansion, suspecting an attack he uses his telepathy to wake up the X-men: Beast, Phoenix IV, Gambit, Bishop, Rogue, Psylocke, Iceman, Storm, Archangel, and Cyclops. They hurridly get into costume, then run downstairs only to find out that what the Prof. thought was an attack turns out to be the Starjammers: Lilandra, Corsair, Ra'za, Hepzibah, and Ch'od.

This should be listed in these characters chronology, probably right after the first story in this issue.

Dave

			*	*	*

Re: UX 319
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on December 29, 2003 at 13:22:15:
In Reply to: UX 319 
posted by David Hall on December 27, 2003 at 18:52:32:

> Why is Rogue listed as BTS in UX 319?
> She is quite clearly in the actual issue.....
> Also this is at the wrong spot in her chronology, as it happens after the rogue limited series....

> We know this because she says to Iceman "No Problem Sugah. After everything that's been happening in my life--" And the caption box says See the upcoming rogue limited series for details.....

Rogue must be referring to something else. Through the Legion subplot, we know that UNCANNY X-MEN #319 takes place prior to X-MEN #39, and X-MEN #39 includes a prelude to the ROGUE limited series. 

So the editorial note is misleading, since #319 can't take place after ROGUE.

I don't think Rogue's comment is specific enough to justify plucking X-MEN #39 apart, and editorial notes generally aren't canon, anyway.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch

			*	*	*

Re: UX 319
Posted by David Hall on December 29, 2003 at 15:54:15:
In Reply to: Re: UX 319 
posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on December 29, 2003 at 13:22:15:

The main problem is that in the MCP, Rogue is listed as BTS in UX319 when she is clearly in this issue. I think we can both agree on this point.

As far as placement, 
I have always been under the assumption that the Bella Donna page in X-Men #39 was a flashback, and that the comments in UX 319 refer to the Rogue L.S. 

I suppose if we assume the comment is merely a general reference to Remy that this does not have to be so.

However, I will take another look at XM 39.....

Dave

			*	*	*

Re: X-men 39
Posted by David Hall on December 29, 2003 at 20:40:41:
In Reply to: Re: UX 319 
posted by David Hall on December 29, 2003 at 15:54:15:

On Page 7 of X-Men #39 Beast tells Jean that Rogue has ALREADY left for the Rogue limited series, meaning that it takes place before XM 39.

"So then Rogue informs Gambit that she has to take care of her past problems n her own--and whoosh!-- She's flying off to Lord-knows where! And what could our passionate cajun do? he followed her Lickety-Split." 

This is way too specific to refer to anything else but Rogue 1.

That means that page 14 with Bella Donna has to be a flashback, which occurs prior to Rogue 1.

I agree with you that UX 319 has to occur before XM 39, besides the Legion subplot, Hank also makes comments about Warren and Betsy dating.

Based on the above comments I stand by this order for Rogue's chronology:

X 38
R 1-4
UX 319
M/Hol 1994

Also Bella Donna should have her listing for X 39 amended to X 39 - FB. Hank's comment supports this.

Dave

			*	*	*

Re: X-men 39 and Rogue #1-4
Posted by Jeph! on December 29, 2003 at 23:45:33:
In Reply to: Re: X-men 39 
posted by David Hall on December 29, 2003 at 20:40:41:

> On Page 7 of X-Men #39 Beast tells Jean that Rogue has ALREADY left for the Rogue limited series, meaning that it takes place before XM 39.

No. All this means is that, shortly prior to X-Men #39 p.7, Rogue and Gambit LEFT THE MANSION. It DOESN'T mean that the entire Rogue limited series has already happened, which is how you seem to be interpreting it.

X-Men #39 leaves off with Rogue and Gambit having recently departed the mansion, and Candra's guild reacting to the passing of her father.

In Rogue #1, we pick up the action with Rogue on her way South, Gambit following her, and Candra attending her father's funeral.

This is precisely where X #39 left matters. If Beast had said that Rogue and Gambit had ARRIVED in the South, or that they'd sent word of a wacky adventure, I'd consider shifting Rogue #1-4 back. but all he said was that they LEFT the mansion -- and they left the mansion sometime PRIOR to Rogue #1.

Rogue #1-4 definitively occur between X #39 and UX #320. And the Bella Donna scene in X #39 is NOT a flashback.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Rogue #1 Vs. X-Men #39
Posted by David Hall on December 30, 2003 at 21:44:54:
In Reply to: Re: X-men 39 and Rogue #1-4 
posted by Jeph! on December 29, 2003 at 23:45:33:


Okay Jeph. You win, I accept what youre saying (between X #39 and UX #320), BUT (and you knew there would be a but, right?) there is still a problem with your theory. Mainly that Rogue does not leave the mansion until Page 15 of Rogue 1. Remy does not leave the mansion until Page 23 of Rogue 1. From what youve already said about X-Men 39 (but all he(Beast) said was that they LEFT the mansion), we know that Rogue 1 (the entire issue) occurs before Page 7 of X-Men 39. Therefore Bella Donnas appearance in X-Men #39 is out of place (just as I have suggested)

Lets examine:
Rogue 1 Pages 5-6: Bella Donna leaves her fathers funeral, and talks to Candra about Remy. Note that We see Marius tomb and the graveyard on this page. Bella is wearing a normal coat.

Pages 11-12: Bella Donna fights Hand assassins, and gives Gris-gris the order to kidnap Cody.

Page 14: Rogue leaves the mansion (flying)
Page 15: Remy has a talk with Storm, then pops out the window.

Pages 16-20: The Next Evening Rogue fights The Assassins guild in Codys room
Pages 21-22: Bella Donna appears (via Singers power) to tell Rogue that she wants revenge.

Page 23: A short time later, outside the Xavier Institute (Take the captions, for what you will) Gambit leaves the mansion on his motorcycle. Bella Donna gloats.

Compare this to X-Men #39:

Page 7 : Beast says that Rogue LEFT, and that Remy followed. It is morning. This means we know that the events in Rogue 1 have already occurred. You are correct that we do not know that the entire Rogue series has occurred. 

Page 14: Bella Donna is in costume, in a church. Her fathers casket is surrounded by candles. Her guild sister asks her if she is prepared to bear the burden of leadership. Bella vows to seek revenge against Remy LeBeau.

Its pretty obvious to me, that the lying in state as seen in XM 39, has to occur before the funeral scene indicated in Rogue 1. Since Rogue 1 has to occur before pg 7 of XM 39, then the Bella Donna page is indeed a flashback which occurs before the funeral scene in Rogue 1.

Dave

			*	*	*

Re: Rogue #1 Vs. X-Men #39
Posted by Jeph! on December 30, 2003 at 22:53:45:
In Reply to: Rogue #1 Vs. X-Men #39 
posted by David Hall on December 30, 2003 at 21:44:54:

Well, holy crap. You're right. I completely misread the opening sequence of Rogue #1 -- and dodn't bother to flip through the rest of the issue. At age 26, my mind is giving out on me ... my apologies.

You're completely right -- Rogue #1 occurs BEFORE X-Men #39. And yet, the Bella Donna scene in X-Men #39 DOES read like it's meant to go before the Bella Donna scenes in Rogue #1...

I wouldn't call it a "flashback", necessarily, though -- I would just call it a case of pages taking place out of order. But, yes, it's fairly clear that events go like this:

UX #319
X #39 p.14
ROGUE #1
X #39 pp.1-13, 15-22

...and ROGUE #2-4 probably follow X #39.

Good eye. Thanks for arguing it out with me.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Rogue #1 Vs. X-Men #39
Posted by David Hall on December 31, 2003 at 10:32:58:
In Reply to: Re: Rogue #1 Vs. X-Men #39 
posted by Jeph! on December 30, 2003 at 22:53:45:

Not a problem. Arguining it out is the best way to get to the truth, you see something I don't, or I see soemthing in a different way. In this case pages out of order or flashback makes no difference per se.

Is there a calendar available for this period?
I would assume that at least part of rogue 2 would be concurrent with X-Men 39, but that wouldn't make any difference to the chronology.

By the way Jeph, I am re-reading the X-Titles from the 1990's on and looking for chronology problems. If there's anything in that timeframe that you think might be out of whack chronology-wise let me know so I can take a close look.

Thanks

Dave

			*	*	*

X-factor 108
Posted by David HAll on December 27, 2003 at 20:31:38:

Rogue appears in X-factor 108.

Her listing should be amended to say:
M/Hol 1994 - BTS
* M/Hol/6
* XF 108
X 40

Nightcrawler is also in XF 108, but I believe it is in the wrong place in his listing.

X-factor 107-111 are (mostly) a continuous series of events. There is perhaps a day or so break between 107 and 108. After that 108-111 flow without a break.
111 ends with the M'kraan crystal fracturing, meaning that it is concurrent with the events of the Legion Quest crossover.

currently kurt's listing reads:
XCAL 82
XCAL@ 2
XCAL@ 2/2
XCAL@ 2/3
XF 108
XCAL 83
XCAL 84
XCAL 85
XCAL 86

As there is a break between 85 and 86, it would make more sense for XF 108 to be listed betwen XCAL 85 and 86, like so:

XCAL 82
XCAL@ 2
XCAL@ 2/2
XCAL@ 2/3
XCAL 83
XCAL 84
XCAL 85
*XF 108
XCAL 86

I believe this makes more sense as XCAL 86 also ends the same way as XF 111. Therefore the closer in time we can place XCAL 86 and XF 111, the more accurate the listing.

However, the more important point is that this issue s/b listed in Rogue's chronology.

Dave

			*	*	*

Daredevil
Posted by PopularLoser on December 29, 2003 at 06:00:48:

I noticed that the Daredevil Chronology only goes up to DD2 #26. Is someone already working on #27-55? If not, I might be able to help out as I have those issues. 

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 29, 2003 at 11:23:10:
In Reply to: Daredevil 
posted by PopularLoser on December 29, 2003 at 06:00:48:

Kevin Wasser has been contributing chronological analyses for DD2. See previous postings on this board for details. Thanks for offering, though.

--Paul 

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil
Posted by Kevin on December 29, 2003 at 16:45:17:
In Reply to: Re: Daredevil 
posted by Paul Bourcier on December 29, 2003 at 11:23:10:

True, but just to clarify for PopularLoser, it's not just Daredevil, but several characters haven't been updated in the last two years. I believe Russ' (the Administrator) current situation is that he's working on filling in the GAP, (See the FAQ page) and then he'll go back and fill in chronlogy for all the characters from the last 2 to 3 years worth. 

I think another reason why their hasn't been any updates is because the last 2 to 3 years of Marvel chronology has been particularly convoluted, and Paul B. has been working on sorting out the grand picture of things with his calender project. ;-)

Also, Paul, I'll just reply here to your question in the other thread, (that thread's getting long and tangled): Moving the Sweet Charity event back to March between DD Issues 25 and 26 would be MUCH better for DD's chronology, in my humble opinion. 

Refresh my memory: Do you still have the main storyline of DD#26 starting in March or April? I think I had it starting in April, but you moved all events down by one month? To help with the Kang War placement, right? I need to dig out my copy of your calender, but I'm in the middle of packing everything. I'm moving soon, and that's why my posts may be less frequent right now...though I still plan on posting Hulk and Daredevil reviews for their latest issues in the next 2 to 3 weeks. ;-) 

			*	*	*

Re: Daredevil
Posted by Paul Bourcier on December 29, 2003 at 17:03:56:
In Reply to: Re: Daredevil 
posted by Kevin on December 29, 2003 at 16:45:17:

DD2 26 was moved to May to accommodate the Kang War. So Daredevil participates in Sweet Charity and attends Cap's funeral in CA3 50/6 before the Kang War. The unmasking storyline occurs after the Kang War.

Have a good move, Kevin.

--Paul 

			*	*	*

WIDGET...WILDRUN...JIM WILSON
Posted by Arthur Stein on December 31, 2003 at 08:32:10:

new entries marked **

WIDGET

XCAL 9
**XCAL 10 (20p6-24p4)
XCAL 11


WILDRUN

**FF@ 25
**A@ 21
A@ 22/2


WILSON, JIM

M/FEA 3
(H2 155 Jim Wilson does not appear in H2 155. The Jim Wilson in H2 155 (28p4 and 30p1) is a dream figure created by the Shaper)
**H2 157
H2 167

.. .. .. .. .. 

H2 223
**H2 225
H2 226
H2 227
H@ 7
**H2 228
**H2 229
**H2 231

.. .. .. .. ..

CA 272
**H2 279
H2 388


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#145

			*	*	*

Deadline
Posted by Antonio Gavio on December 31, 2003 at 16:14:47:

After reviewing the notes about placement of the Deadline series in October there's something about snow being topical that doesn't quite strike me as right, aside from the fact that said placement conflicts with the Spidey chronology that I've been working on. 
We've been assuming Hawkeye has to be out of prison to battle Batroc but what if Batroc himself was in prison trying to escape and got a present from Hawkeye on his way out? Just a thought, I thought I'd throw it. 

			*	*	*

Deadline: Hawkeye, Juggernaut and Spidey
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 01, 2004 at 11:46:10:
In Reply to: Deadline 
posted by Antonio Gavio on December 31, 2003 at 16:14:47:

Well, although we do have the newspaper references to October, these references conflict with the statement in Deadline #1 that its been six months since June. So we COULD go with a December placement, and that would make more sense, given the snow and cold in this series. The question is: which December?

The thing that gives this away is Juggernauts presence in issue #1, in which hes getting an X tattoo. This is not likely to occur until after he joins the X-Men in UX 412. This would place Deadline in the December AFTER the Kang War, not before. So, Hawkeyes nailing of Batroc in Deadline #2 would occur after TB 75, not while Hawkeye was in prison. (Besides, Hawkeye didnt have had his weapons in prison  they were returned to him in TB 65 by Songbird, sometime after his prison breakout.)

(Side note: have we EVER seen that tattoo on Juggernauts arm in any other comic? No, we havent, and its bugging this stickler for continuity.)

Although this December placement would make you feel better about the snow and cold, Antonio, it doesnt serve the purpose of pushing Deadline back on the calendar, and I get the feeling thats what you want to do. Its that pesky battle between Spidey and Doc Ock on the Flatiron Building in issue #2 thats messing things up, isnt it?

Paul

			*	*	*

Juggy: No!
Posted by Jeph! on January 01, 2004 at 12:58:47:
In Reply to: Deadline: Hawkeye, Juggernaut and Spidey 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 01, 2004 at 11:46:10:

> The thing that gives this away is Juggernauts presence in issue #1, in which hes getting an X tattoo. This is not likely to occur until after he joins the X-Men in UX 412.

Wait wait wait ... I thought we discussed this.

First off, Cain did NOT "join the X-Men" in UX #412. He came to stay at the mansion in #412-413, and battled the wolves with them in UX #420, but he didn't ask to join the team until #421 -- and he wasn't accepted onto Warren's squad until #425.

That said -- why would he be getting an X-tattoo? One answer is, at some point after UX #413, he began to admire the X-men ... but X-Men Forever showed us that Cain has pretty much ALWAYS wished he were a mutant. I'm sure he's envious of the X-Men, and has been for quite some time.

Basically, he could be getting that tattoo at any point after A3 #25, the aftermath of the "Eighth Day" event, where we've learned that Cytorrak halved Cain's power -- before that point, his force field would render him unable to even GET a tattoo.

As for why you've never seen it again -- well, X-Force #4 established that Cain has a healing factor of sorts. Any damage that manages to penetrate his force-field (like Shatterstar's magic blades) heals quickly. It's very probable that Cain's body eventually "healed over" or rejected the tattoo ink.

Which means, realistically, if Cain KNEW that he'd heal over any tattoos he'd receive -- he could indulge his jealousy for the X-Men and get himself a short-term "X" tattoo. Like a kid playing dress-up, only with masochistic fast-healing body mutilation.

If you want to place "Deadline" in the winter before the Kang War, go right ahead -- Juggernaut's tattoo doesn't really signify anything. (Besides, the issue was published eight months before UX #412-413, so it wasn't MEANT to signify that he had joined the X-Men ... in fact, at the time the writer probably had no idea that Juggy was going to join.


> (Besides, Hawkeye didnt have had his weapons in prison  they were returned to him in TB 65 by Songbird, sometime after his prison breakout.)

It could very easily have been an improvised weapon ... a piece of twine and two pipes, that sort of thing...

Meh. I'd lean towards the "prior to UX #412" solution myself, just because Deadline was published first -- but that's hardly a scientific rationale. ;) All I'm saying is, don't feel constrained by Juggernaut's appearance -- all the tattoo means is that it was sometime after Avengers v3 #25.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Hawkeye: No!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 01, 2004 at 13:24:41:
In Reply to: Juggy: No! 
posted by Jeph! on January 01, 2004 at 12:58:47:

> > The thing that gives this away is Juggernauts presence in issue #1, in which hes getting an X tattoo. This is not likely to occur until after he joins the X-Men in UX 412.

> Wait wait wait ... I thought we discussed this.

> First off, Cain did NOT "join the X-Men" in UX #412. He came to stay at the mansion in #412-413, and battled the wolves with them in UX #420, but he didn't ask to join the team until #421 -- and he wasn't accepted onto Warren's squad until #425.

Well, "joined" was a shorthand reference, but what I meant was that I didn't find it consistent with Cain's history to have him get the tattoo before UX 412.


> That said -- why would he be getting an X-tattoo? One answer is, at some point after UX #413, he began to admire the X-men ... but X-Men Forever showed us that Cain has pretty much ALWAYS wished he were a mutant. I'm sure he's envious of the X-Men, and has been for quite some time.

> Basically, he could be getting that tattoo at any point after A3 #25, the aftermath of the "Eighth Day" event, where we've learned that Cytorrak halved Cain's power -- before that point, his force field would render him unable to even GET a tattoo.

> As for why you've never seen it again -- well, X-Force #4 established that Cain has a healing factor of sorts. Any damage that manages to penetrate his force-field (like Shatterstar's magic blades) heals quickly. It's very probable that Cain's body eventually "healed over" or rejected the tattoo ink.

> Which means, realistically, if Cain KNEW that he'd heal over any tattoos he'd receive -- he could indulge his jealousy for the X-Men and get himself a short-term "X" tattoo. Like a kid playing dress-up, only with masochistic fast-healing body mutilation.

Well, I find that somewhat of a stretch for Cain's character, but if placing Deadline between A3 25 and UX 410 makes other chronologies a lot more sensible, then I'm open to it.

> If you want to place "Deadline" in the winter before the Kang War, go right ahead -- Juggernaut's tattoo doesn't really signify anything. (Besides, the issue was published eight months before UX #412-413, so it wasn't MEANT to signify that he had joined the X-Men ... in fact, at the time the writer probably had no idea that Juggy was going to join.

> > (Besides, Hawkeye didnt have had his weapons in prison  they were returned to him in TB 65 by Songbird, sometime after his prison breakout.)

> It could very easily have been an improvised weapon ... a piece of twine and two pipes, that sort of thing...

Again, not the best situation here, but if it helps greatly with Spidey and Doc Ock, I'll offer a partial explanation for this...

In GAM3 19, Crossbones and Batroc are defeated by the Thieves Guild. It's quite possible that the Guild handed them over to the authorites, as the next time we have a reference to Crossbones, in ALIAS 26, he's in prison.

Batroc, on the other hand, is free after GAM3 19, in CA3 41 and CA3 50. So he may have been in prison at Seagate and escaped, but not without suffering injury from Hawkeye on the way out. However, while Hawkeye may have improvised a bow, he used *an actual arrow*, clearly seen pulled from Batroc's leg in Deadline #2. Now where would he have gotten that? Arming convicts would seem to be against prison policy, and it's unlikely Hawkeye would have taken an arrow from a prison guard, who tend to be armed with other weapons.

--Paul 

			*	*	*

Jeph: No!
Posted by Jeph! on January 01, 2004 at 13:34:02:
In Reply to: Re: Hawkeye: No! 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 01, 2004 at 13:24:41:

Well, we could argue the Juggy thing either way -- like I said, it wasn't the writer's INTENT to show that he was joining the X-Men, but it is a cool coincidence. I guess we'll just let it fall however it falls, based on other clues. Like this:

> while Hawkeye may have improvised a bow, he used *an actual arrow*, clearly seen pulled from Batroc's leg in Deadline #2.

Rats. Okay, so he was out of prison.

However ... he was released from prison once or twice, hasn't he? I think we decided that his appearances in Sweet Charity, JLA/Avengers and Marvel Double Shot all occured after his escape from prison ... but he was definitely released from prison in "Avengers: the Ultron Imperative". What are the chances of that overlapping "Deadline"?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

'Fraid So!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 01, 2004 at 15:34:03:
In Reply to: Jeph: No! 
posted by Jeph! on January 01, 2004 at 13:34:02:

> Well, we could argue the Juggy thing either way -- like I said, it wasn't the writer's INTENT to show that he was joining the X-Men, but it is a cool coincidence. I guess we'll just let it fall however it falls, based on other clues. Like this:

> > while Hawkeye may have improvised a bow, he used *an actual arrow*, clearly seen pulled from Batroc's leg in Deadline #2.

> Rats. Okay, so he was out of prison.

Yes, and furthermore, the arrow is marked "copyright Hawkeye the Archer," so it's clearly one of Hawkeye's own arrows. (Unless, of course, someone was impersonating Hawkeye, but that's just too far-fetched and involves negating a BTS appearance without sufficient reason.)


> However ... he was released from prison once or twice, hasn't he? I think we decided that his appearances in Sweet Charity, JLA/Avengers and Marvel Double Shot all occured after his escape from prison ... but he was definitely released from prison in "Avengers: the Ultron Imperative". What are the chances of that overlapping "Deadline"?

Yes, but that doesn't serve either the October OR the December placement of Deadline. Those Hawkeye appearances you mention all occur during warm weather months (remember that camping trip Spidey and JJJ went on in Sweet Charity).

Another option is to place Deadline during the December prior to 9-11, back around the time of PPSM2 2, but that may pose more problems.

I guess it's time for Antonio to point out how Spidey and Doc Ock pose problems for a post-Kang War placement.

We should remember, too, that Deadline #2 features a bunch of other villains, including Eightball II, Batroc, Bullseye, Red Ghost, Hammerhead, Vulture, Mr. Fear IV, Clown, and Armadillo. Bullseye has his mask on, so we don't know if his forehead is carved up (from DD2 49, in which he was taken into custody, but may have escaped afterward).

--Paul

			*	*	*

Uh oh!
Posted by Jeph! on January 01, 2004 at 16:29:05:
In Reply to: 'Fraid So! 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 01, 2004 at 15:34:03:

> Those Hawkeye appearances you mention all occur during warm weather months (remember that camping trip Spidey and JJJ went on in Sweet Charity).

Rats. Okay -- so post-Kang war it is, I suppose.

> I guess it's time for Antonio to point out how Spidey and Doc Ock pose problems for a post-Kang War placement.

That'd be good ... I don't know anything about Spidey's chronology, and I'm not sure what the problems are either way. What's Spidey's prominence in this series, anyhow?

> Bullseye has his mask on, so we don't know if his forehead is carved up (from DD2 49, in which he was taken into custody, but may have escaped afterward).

I was about to balk at placing a miniseries from June 2002 *after* the much more recently-published DD2 #48-49, but then I remembered the upcoming one-year gap between DD2 #50 and 56. Maybe compressing DD2 #26-50 back in relation to all other titles IS the way to go there.

-Jeph!
shooting in the dark, as usual

			*	*	*

Spidey in Deadline
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 01, 2004 at 17:51:17:
In Reply to: Uh oh! 
posted by Jeph! on January 01, 2004 at 16:29:05:

> I don't know anything about Spidey's chronology, and I'm not sure what the problems are either way. What's Spidey's prominence in this series, anyhow?

He appears in only one scene in the entire series -- in issue #2, he's battling Doc Ock on the Flatiron Building, and it's really just a backdrop for other activity in the story.

--Paul 

			*	*	*

Re: Spidey in Deadline
Posted by Antonio Gavio on January 04, 2004 at 19:01:26:
In Reply to: Spidey in Deadline 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 01, 2004 at 17:51:17:

> I guess it's time for Antonio to point out how Spidey and Doc Ock pose problems for a post-Kang War placement.

> > I don't know anything about Spidey's chronology, and I'm not sure what the problems are either way. What's Spidey's prominence in this series, anyhow?

> He appears in only one scene in the entire series -- in issue #2, he's battling Doc Ock on the Flatiron Building, and it's really just a backdrop for other activity in the story.

If Deadline were to happen in October a lot of Spider-Man issues would have to be pushed after it and in most cases temporal references would not work as good as I currently have them, aside from creating long unintended gaps between issues. I'm not going to point out exactly where the problems would be since I haven't made changes to the Spidey calendar to exactly recognize the problems, but I can just visualize them and prefer to save some time by looking for another more reasonable spot for the Deadline series.

Antonio

			*	*	*

Re: Spidey in Deadline
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 04, 2004 at 22:02:37:
In Reply to: Re: Spidey in Deadline 
posted by Antonio Gavio on January 04, 2004 at 19:01:26:

> > I guess it's time for Antonio to point out how Spidey and Doc Ock pose problems for a post-Kang War placement.

> > > I don't know anything about Spidey's chronology, and I'm not sure what the problems are either way. What's Spidey's prominence in this series, anyhow?

> > He appears in only one scene in the entire series -- in issue #2, he's battling Doc Ock on the Flatiron Building, and it's really just a backdrop for other activity in the story.

> If Deadline were to happen in October a lot of Spider-Man issues would have to be pushed after it and in most cases temporal references would not work as good as I currently have them, aside from creating long unintended gaps between issues. I'm not going to point out exactly where the problems would be since I haven't made changes to the Spidey calendar to exactly recognize the problems, but I can just visualize them and prefer to save some time by looking for another more reasonable spot for the Deadline series.

I'm guessing Doc Ock is the problem here, and that he'll need to appear in ASM2 44 after Deadline #2. After all the various calendars I've tried to devise for Spidey, I get confused at this point. But if Deadline #2 is in October, and ASM2 44 is after that, we entertain the possibility of the "December" reference in ASM2 47 being accurate.

If you'd like me to check out a preview of your calendar to see how pivotal Deadline's placement is, please do e-mail me. Thanks, Antonio.

--Paul 

			*	*	*

Wolverine/Gambit: Victims
Posted by David Hall on December 31, 2003 at 23:36:49:

Here's a question that I would like to throw out. If Logan attended Fury's funeral in H 434,(his previous apperance) why does he belive Martinique when she pretends that Fury sent her to rescue him and Gambit in W/G 2? Would it not make more sense for Hulk 434 to come after W/G 1-4?

Second, the ten page flashback in W/G #3 needs to be placed in the MCP into both Yukio and Gambit's chronology. I am not an expert in Gambit flashback's (yet)so I'll settle for describing the action and letting others help out. At the very least it occurs before Gambit's first appearance.

As for Yukio's chronology, if we put this before her first appaerance in the Wolverine limited series, it shouldn't cause any problems.

W/G 3 Pages 1-10:

Gambit is stealing a painting from a house in London, rolls it up into a tube, and goes out a window. But he is captured by a police officer Alexandra Davies and put in cuffs, which he proceeds to escpae from,while laying on his charm, and telling her that he is not the real thief who has been stealing from houses in the area. He tells her that tommorrow night he will break her the real culprit. That evening Yukio is running along a dock, when Gambit trips her up with a thorwn card. She falls dropping a bag of gems. Officer Davies and Detective Andrews arrest her. The next night Alexndra meets with Gambit, and he steals a kiss.
