New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 01, 2004 at 12:07:53:

Happy New Year to everyone!

I've been reading about the new titles that Marvel is introducing in the next few months, and I thought I'd take this opportunity to recap the books that some of us have decided to summarize for chronological placement, and to ask for assistance with new titles. Here's what I have. I took a few liberties with the list, but if there are titles you can't cover after all, or titles you'd like to sign up for, please post.

I'll continue to post my notes, along with the compilation of other people's posted analyses, in calendar form.

PAUL BOURCIER (who has a lot of reading to do):
Alpha Flight
Amazing Spider-Man
Ant-Man
Avengers
Avengers/Thunderbolts
Captain America
Captain America & the Falcon
Captain Marvel
Fantastic Four
4
Hawkeye
Human Torch
Iron Man
Mystique
New Mutants
New X-Men
Secret War
She-Hulk
Spectacular Spider-Man
Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Out of Reach
Spider-Man Unlimited
Thor
Uncanny X-Men
Weapon X
Wolverine/Captain America
X-Men Unlimited
X-Treme X-Men
X-Statix

DREW
Venom

GARBONZO
Sentinel

ANTONIO GAVIO
ACTOR Presents Spider-Man & The Incredible Hulk (??)
Marvelous Adventures of Gus Beezer & Spider-Man (??)

SEAN KLEEFELD
Pulse

PAUL OBRIEN
Crew
Elektra
NYX
Punisher
Silver Surfer
Thor:Vikings

DAN SPEARS
Inhumans
Runaways
Thanos

KEVIN WASSER:
Daredevil
Incredible Hulk

JEPH YORK:
Cable & Deadpool
Wolverine

UP FOR GRABS:
Epic Anthology
Iron Fist
Wolverine/Punisher

As far as I know, the above titles are canon and are taking place close to the present. There are other titles that cover earlier periods, and we'll need folks to post their notes about how they might tie in to existing MCP listings.

Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Negative Exposure -- Paul Bourcier (so far, anyway)
1602 (rumored to be canon) -- Kevin Wasser
Hulk: Grey -- Kevin Wasser
Thor, Son of Asgard -- Kevin Wasser
Marvel Age: Spider-Man -- Antonio Gavino?
Emma Frost -- up for grabs

Thanks to everyone who is helping to determine recent chronologies and calendar placements. I really appreciate the analyses and other posts that keep us on track. It can be slow and frustrating at times, but fun.

--Paul

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Re: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work
Posted by Kevin on January 01, 2004 at 18:19:44:
In Reply to: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 01, 2004 at 12:07:53:

Man, and I thought I had a lot to read...but you Paul, are really going that extra mile. ;-)

I think I'll point out to you though that the new Secret War miniseries is, (unless I'm mistaken) a part of the Ultimate line of comics. Therefore, not canon, as far as the regular Marvel universe goes. 

Paul O'brien, if you're overwhelmed, I can take Punisher back from you, if needed. I just got ticked off at the series for being nothing more than a borderline spoof...it's almost borderline non canon in it's portrayel of other Marvel heroes. But I'll take it back if needed. Punisher is also being rebooted with a new issue 1 under the MAX line...but unless I'm mistaken, it will still be canon, (even if it will be a MAX comic now)...

Just offering. ;-) 

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Re: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work
Posted by Jeph! on January 01, 2004 at 19:09:14:
In Reply to: Re: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work 
posted by Kevin on January 01, 2004 at 18:19:44:

> > JEPH YORK:
> > Cable & Deadpool
> > Wolverine

If you don't mind waiting until the TPBs come out, sure, I can keep doing Wolverine. But if you need monthly updates, I'll have to pass the torch on this book.

> > UP FOR GRABS:
> > Wolverine/Punisher

I can take this one -- again, once (or, IF) it comes out in TPB format.

> > Emma Frost -- up for grabs

Ditto here -- it's rumored that the book is coming out in a "Marvel Age" Manga-sized TPB ... if this materializes, I can take it. If not ... well, I've got issues #4 and 6...

> I think I'll point out to you though that the new Secret War miniseries is, (unless I'm mistaken) a part of the Ultimate line of comics.

You're mistaken -- it's a part of the real marvel line. A lot of people think it's an Ultimate title for some reason, but just because it's being written by Bendis does not an Ultimate book make. :-)

-Jeph! 

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Re: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 02, 2004 at 03:58:23:
In Reply to: Re: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work 
posted by Kevin on January 01, 2004 at 18:19:44:

> I think I'll point out to you though that the new Secret War miniseries is, (unless I'm mistaken) a part of the Ultimate line of comics. Therefore, not canon, as far as the regular Marvel universe goes. 

No, it's part of regular Marvel continuity. There was talk of doing an Ultimate Secret Wars project at one point, but this isn't it.


> Paul O'brien, if you're overwhelmed, I can take Punisher back from you, if needed. I just got ticked off at the series for being nothing more than a borderline spoof...it's almost borderline non canon in it's portrayel of other Marvel heroes. But I'll take it back if needed. 

No, I can handle the remainder of the recently-completed Punisher series. The reboot may be another matter, however - it's apparently set back in his early days, and I'm not familiar with the Punisher's early continuity. 

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Re: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 02, 2004 at 13:15:33:
In Reply to: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 01, 2004 at 12:07:53:

> PAUL OBRIEN
> Crew
> Elektra
> NYX
> Punisher
> Silver Surfer
> Thor:Vikings

Crew and Thor: Vikings are finished, and I've already posted analysis of their whole run - so those can come off the list.

I'm going to get to Punisher in the next couple of days, promise.

Silver Surfer and NYX are still working through their first storylines, so I'll hold off until they've finished those. So far, neither book has shown any signs of causing trouble.

> Emma Frost -- up for grabs

I can take that one. We're going way, way back in Marvel history with this one, though - I think the second story arc just about drags us up as far as the Generation X flashback issue.

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Re: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 02, 2004 at 15:22:45:
In Reply to: Re: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 02, 2004 at 13:15:33:

> > PAUL OBRIEN
> > Crew
> > Elektra
> > NYX
> > Punisher
> > Silver Surfer
> > Thor:Vikings

> Crew and Thor: Vikings are finished, and I've already posted analysis of their whole run - so those can come off the list.

Right. Crew now has a tentative calendar placement in June of the current MU year (the year after Kang War). But we never did come to a resolution about Thor:Vikings. When last we left it, chronological placement was problematic given Wanda's costume, and Strange's characterization gave the impression that this may be a non-canonical story.


> I'm going to get to Punisher in the next couple of days, promise.

Sounds great, Paul. Thanks.


> Silver Surfer and NYX are still working through their first storylines, so I'll hold off until they've finished those. So far, neither book has shown any signs of causing trouble.

No problem.


> > Emma Frost -- up for grabs

> I can take that one. We're going way, way back in Marvel history with this one, though - I think the second story arc just about drags us up as far as the Generation X flashback issue.

Thanks for snagging this one.

--Paul

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Re: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 02, 2004 at 15:11:30:
In Reply to: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 01, 2004 at 12:07:53:

I forgot this title...

CRIMSON DYNAMO

I picked up issues #2 and #3 in a bargain bin, but I'm not committed to the series. Anyone want to grab this one?

--Paul 

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Re: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 03, 2004 at 04:16:03:
In Reply to: Re: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 02, 2004 at 15:11:30:

> CRIMSON DYNAMO

> I picked up issues #2 and #3 in a bargain bin, but I'm not committed to the series. Anyone want to grab this one?


I'll take it. It's actually not too bad.

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Re: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 03, 2004 at 10:30:50:
In Reply to: Re: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 03, 2004 at 04:16:03:

Thanks, Paul. :)

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Re: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work
Posted by Drew on January 02, 2004 at 23:09:34:
In Reply to: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 01, 2004 at 12:07:53:

> DREW
> Venom

I want to wait untill the second stary arc finishes up to do mine... they basically run together to make one giant 10 issue story, but I will break it up into two arcs
Drew

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Re: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 03, 2004 at 10:32:59:
In Reply to: Re: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work 
posted by Drew on January 02, 2004 at 23:09:34:

Sounds good to me. I look forward to your posts when the time comes. Thanks.

--Paul

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Assignment Update -- Titles still available
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 08, 2004 at 20:18:46:
In Reply to: New Year, New Titles, New Chronology Work 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 01, 2004 at 12:07:53:

Let's see if I have things properly updated here. Some assignments haven't been confirmed and a few titles still remain, so if you'd like to take them on, please let us know. Thanks to all.

PAUL BOURCIER:
Alpha Flight
Amazing Spider-Man
Ant-Man
Avengers
Avengers/Thunderbolts
Captain America
Captain America & the Falcon
Captain Marvel
Fantastic Four
4
Hawkeye
Human Torch
Iron Man
Mystique
New Mutants
New X-Men
Secret War
She-Hulk
Spectacular Spider-Man
Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Negative Exposure
Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Out of Reach
Spider-Man Unlimited
Thor
Uncanny X-Men
Weapon X
Wolverine/Captain America
X-Men Unlimited
X-Treme X-Men
X-Statix

DREW
Venom

GARBONZO
Sentinel

ANTONIO GAVIO (?)
ACTOR Presents Spider-Man & The Incredible Hulk
Marvel Age: Spider-Man
Marvelous Adventures of Gus Beezer & Spider-Man

SEAN KLEEFELD
Pulse

PAUL OBRIEN
Crimson Dynamo
Elektra
Emma Frost
NYX 
Silver Surfer

DAN SPEARS
Inhumans
Runaways
Thanos

KEVIN WASSER:
Daredevil
Hulk: Grey
Incredible Hulk
Punisher Max
1602
Thor: Son of Asgard

JEPH YORK:
Cable & Deadpool
Wolverine

STILL UP FOR GRABS:
Epic Anthology
Iron Fist
Wolverine/Punisher 

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Re: Assignment Update -- Titles still available
Posted by Kevin on January 09, 2004 at 11:40:21:
In Reply to: Assignment Update -- Titles still available 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 08, 2004 at 20:18:46:

> KEVIN WASSER:
> Daredevil
> Hulk: Grey
> Incredible Hulk
> Punisher Max
> 1602
> Thor: Son of Asgard

I'll pick up the first issue of the new Punisher title, but there's no garuntee I'll stick with it...It depends on how well I like Garth Ennis's new direction on the book. If someone else wants to pick up that title, it's fine by me. ;-) However, if no one else does, then yes, Paul B., I'll contribute for what issues I do pick up. 

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Re: Assignment Update -- Titles still available
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 10, 2004 at 13:55:02:
In Reply to: Re: Assignment Update -- Titles still available 
posted by Kevin on January 09, 2004 at 11:40:21:

Very good, Kevin. If no one else volunteers, keep me posted on how you'd like to proceed after the first issue. Thank you.

--Paul

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Re: Assignment Update -- Titles still available
Posted by Peter Fabricius on January 09, 2004 at 12:43:43:
In Reply to: Assignment Update -- Titles still available 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 08, 2004 at 20:18:46:


> STILL UP FOR GRABS:
> Epic Anthology
> Iron Fist
> Wolverine/Punisher

I'll take Epic Anthology and Wolverine/Punisher.

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Re: Assignment Update -- Titles still available
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 10, 2004 at 13:43:59:
In Reply to: Re: Assignment Update -- Titles still available 
posted by Peter Fabricius on January 09, 2004 at 12:43:43:

Great..thanks! I think they have only one issue of Epic Anthology planned for now, so that shouldn't be a big burden.

--Paul

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Re: Assignment Update -- Titles still available
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 12, 2004 at 08:17:10:
In Reply to: Assignment Update -- Titles still available 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 08, 2004 at 20:18:46:

> STILL UP FOR GRABS:
> Iron Fist

I'll take it.

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Re: Assignment Update -- Titles still available
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 12, 2004 at 21:06:01:
In Reply to: Re: Assignment Update -- Titles still available 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 12, 2004 at 08:17:10:

Thanks much. If Antonio confirms his titles, I think we're set, at least for now.

--Paul B. 

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Re: Assignment Update -- Titles still available
Posted by Kevin on January 13, 2004 at 18:48:27:
In Reply to: Re: Assignment Update -- Titles still available 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 12, 2004 at 21:06:01:

> Thanks much. If Antonio confirms his titles, I think we're set, at least for now.

Except for the fact that I don't believe Garbonzo or Dan Spears have confirmed wether they're still taking their titles or not. I only bring it up because I haven't seen them on the board for a while...on the other hand, I haven't seen Sean Kleefield post here for a while as well, and yet I know he's still out there somewhere, checking in from time to time...

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Warlock and the Infinity Watch
Posted by Mart F on January 02, 2004 at 00:40:53:

The first 6 issues or so have been added to the listings, i'm just wondering if the rest of the 32 book series has been looked at yet. 

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Captain America: Red, White, and Blue canonical?
Posted by John McDonagh on January 02, 2004 at 17:52:16:

I was browsing through Borders recently, and I noticed a graphic novel called Captain America:Red, White, and Blue. It was an anthology of mostly original tales. Anyone, one of the was a 1950's Captain America story written by Max Allan Collins that featured the Red Skull. (If this was canonical,then the Red Skull would be Albert Malik). 

I am a little uncertain about the continuity status of some of the tales in this anthology; a lot of them were a tad outr, including one set in November 12, 1952 which featured Captain America facing an NKVD agent named the Red Bra (who was really Sharon Carter) alongside Black Mamba (from the Serpent Society). Still, for the sake of completeness;

(Captain Amerca: Red, White, and Blue, eighth story) Malik killed a senator named Joseph McRooter, and took his place. Recruiting war criminals to help him, Malik decided to pursue a strategy of crippling America from within by accusing honest, law-abiding Americans of being Communists; by this ruse, Malik presumably also hoped to distract attention from the activities of true Communist saboteurs. (Curiously, Malik recruited some former war criminals to aid him in this scheme.)
As part of this scheme, Malik (impersonating McRooter) called for investigations into the U.S. military for possible Communist infiltration. As part of this, he demanded that Captain America and Brigadier General Zwiller appear before him. Captain America appeared with lawyer Ken Levine in Washington. "McRooter" demanded that Captain America take off the mask during his next appearance. 
Speaking with FBI agent Betty Ross, Captain America discovered that she suspected that the real McRooter had been killed and replaced. She showed him pictures of contacts McRooter had met with, who Captain America recognized as war criminals.
At the next hearing, Captain America unmasked "McRooter" as Malik. An agent of Malik's grabbed for a gun, but Betty Ross shot him dead. 

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New Appearance by "The Foreigner" ?
Posted by John Omohundro on January 02, 2004 at 19:03:32:

First of all, I hope that everyone here had a Merry Christmas and will have a Happy New Year.

Now, on to business. I have a question:

The various on-line comic sites I frequent have made reference to SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN (1998, 2nd Series), Issue #502, in which Spidey does battle with "an assassin with the same tailor as Marvel's heroes". (I *THINK* I have the quote right. My apologies if I don't.)

Would anyone happen to know who this individual is? My money is on either "Bullseye" or "The Foreigner", but it *COULD* be someone else--perhaps an entirely new character.

I'm not worried about spoilers. As most of you probably know, I'm trying to collect as many issues in which "The Foreigner" appeared as possible.

As always,thanks in advance for any responses. 

			*	*	*

Killshot in ASM 502
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 02, 2004 at 19:35:55:
In Reply to: New Appearance by "The Foreigner" ? 
posted by John Omohundro on January 02, 2004 at 19:03:32:

Well, last week's *Amazing* Spider-Man #502 features a battle between Spidey and Killshot, an assassin who uses the same tailor as many MU heroes and villains. At least I think that's what you're referring to. Killshot is not the Foreigner or Bullseye.

BTW, I'm trying to figure out where to place all the flashbacks featuring the tailor, Leo Zelinsky, with the Thing, Captain Mar-Vell, Captain America, some dude who wants to call himself "the Wolf" (who is he?), Dr. Doom (or a Doom robot), the Blob, and Thor.

I have theories for Mar-Vell and Cap and am working on the others. I'll post when I have more to offer here.

--Paul 

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Re: Killshot in ASM 502
Posted by John Omohundro on January 02, 2004 at 19:50:49:
In Reply to: Killshot in ASM 502 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 02, 2004 at 19:35:55:

Thanks, Paul. :)

--John

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Hulk: Future Imperfect
Posted by Administrator on January 02, 2004 at 22:57:54:

I'm analysing the 2-issue limited series from 1993 and need some help. Where does this series occur in the Hulk's chronology? A flashback in H:FI 1 show Janis arriving in the past to convince Rick Jones that she was from his future. I seem to recall a scene in Hulk that told those same events from Rick's perspective, which would tie down the Hulk's placement, but now I can't find it. Can someone shed some light on this?

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Re: Hulk: Future Imperfect
Posted by Don Campbell on January 03, 2004 at 07:45:57:
In Reply to: Hulk: Future Imperfect 
posted by Administrator on January 02, 2004 at 22:57:54:

From the Hulk's perspective, the Future Imperfect limited series occurs between issues 416 & 417 (after the Troyjan War storyline ends and before the Rick and Marlo's wedding two-parter).

As for Rick's first meeting with Janis, that takes place in H2 415 (Rick doesn't appear in 416).

Don Campbell 

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Chronology review: PUNISHER
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 03, 2004 at 05:09:58:

Told you it was nearly ready...

Issues #1-7 have already been done, so here's the remainder of the series.

THE MEDALLION
PUNISHER #9 (April 2002) by Tom Peyer and Manuel Gutierrez
PUNISHER #10 (May 2002) by Peyer and Gutierrez
PUNISHER #11 (June 2002) by Peyer and Gutierrez
PUNISHER #12 (July 2002) by Peyer and Gutierrez

GENERAL COMMENTS:
This is a seriously crap story. Basically, imagine a Punisher story where the villain is on loan from an Adam West Batman story, and you're on the right lines.

Four days long, and the dialogue strongly suggests it's December. As the story begins, in issue #9 the Punisher says that four cabbies have died since 17 November 2001. In issue #10, this is repeated as "since November." The art is consistent with this - it's mostly inner city, so there's nothing conclusive about the seasons.

SYNOPSIS
* PUNISHER #9. Day 1. New York, evening. The Punisher beats up cabbie Phillip Dylan, locks him the trunk of his taxi and steals the cab. Posing as Dylan, the Punisher picks up mobster Johnny Gorto from a strip club. He drives out of town (to what looks like a disused industrial estate) and kills Gorto. Then he interrogates Dylan about his involvement with the mob. Dylan explains that he needed Gorto for protection. Four other cabbies have recently been murdered, and he suspects he will be next.

The Medallion - a lunatic crimelord specialising in taxi-related crime - wants Dylan killed so that he can foreclose on Dylan before he repays his loan. (In some unexplained manner, this is apparently going to make him a $250K profit. I gather it's supposed to be something to do with the value of New York taxi licences.) He has another driver, Tjinder, despatched to carry out the murder, using a cab modified by his demented mechanic Mr Badwrench. Tjinder is extremely reluctant, but has no choice.

Mr Badwrench visits the Medallion's HQ, in response to a summons. The Medallion tells Badwrench that he wants to start a huge war between rival taxis in New York, causing immense carnage. Badwrench is baffled - he cannot see how the Medallion is going to make any money from this. The Medallion seems to suggest that money is beside the point - he just wants a big fight.

The Punisher is driving Dylan back into town when Tjinder attacks in the modified taxi. Tjinder fires a missile at the Punisher's taxi.

Characters: Punisher, Phillip Dylan, Johnny Gorto, Medallion, Mr Badwrench, Hopkins (Medallion's butler), Tjinder

According to the Punisher, Dylan regularly picks up Gorto from the strip club on Monday, Wednesday and Friday - so it's one of those days.

* PUNISHER #10, pages 1 to 4. Day 1, continued. The Punisher's taxi crashes. Dylan is killed. The Punisher guns down Tjinder's taxi. Tjinder is killed.

Characters: Punisher, Phillip Dylan, Tjinder

Direct continuation.

* PUNISHER #10, pages 5 to 22. Day 2. The Daily Bugle offices. Robbie Robertson discusses the murders of Dylan and Tjinder with Bugle cartoonist Artis Lee.

The NYPD 15th Precinct. Martin Soap arrives for work in a taxi, accompanied by his "girlfriend." When he reaches his office, he finds the Punisher waiting for him. The Punisher asks Soap for information about the cabbie murders. Soap makes some phone calls, but none of the cops working on the murders will talk to him. The Punisher leaves.

The Punisher goes to the offices of Uptown Taxis, the Medallion's front company. He applies for a job as a taxi driver, and receptionist "Radio Annie" gives him a form.

Mr Badwrench's garage. Badwrench and his protege Bobby are visited by the Medallion and his butler Hopkins. The Medallion has seen Lee's cartoon in the Daily Bugle and has concluded, correctly, that the cartoon shows the Punisher driving a cab. (It's never really explained why Lee has drawn the Punisher in his cartoon.) The Medallion has decided that the Punisher must die before he can start his taxi war. Badwrench demonstrates a new device - a taxi rigged with hidden blades which can kill the driver by remote control. If the can get the Punisher to drive the taxi, they can kill him. In demonstrating the device, Badwrench kills Bobby (thus keeping him quiet).

The Medallion is contacted by videophone by Radio Annie, who tells him that the Punisher has been into the office. As instructed, she has hired him.

Characters: Punisher, Martin Soap, Soap's "girlfriend", Radio Annie, Mr Badwrench, Bobby, Medallion, Hopkins, Artie Lee, Robbie Robertson

Robbie refers to Dylan and Tjinder's deaths as taking place the previous day.

Apparently the cartoon must have appeared in a later edition of the Daily Bugle, having been drawn in the morning. The script seems fairly emphatic that this is all meant to be the same day. Radio Annie says that Tjinder died yesterday, and then phones the Medallion to tell him that the Punisher has been in.

* PUNISHER #11. Day 3. The Medallion's HQ. The Medallion has been up all night, worrying about how he is going to stop the Punisher.

New York streets. The Punisher has begun work as a taxi driver. As he explains later, he knows full well that the cab is rigged - he's checked it. The Medallion's henchmen Jared and Amber tail him. They are under orders to wait until he is somewhere out of the way, so that they can kill him unobtrusively.

Lucky's Bar. Kevin talks to Soap's "girlfriend." A young woman, Manilow, comes in, and Soap's "girlfriend" bolts. The woman explains that she is looking for her mother, and produces a photo. It's obviously Soap's "girlfriend" in her younger days. Kevin takes the photo and tells the woman to come back after 6pm so that she can talk to Soap.

The Punisher goes into a diaper laundry in Queens and waits there for over an hour until Jared and Amber follow him in. He beats them up, and leaves - in their taxi. They follow in his taxi, not noticing the switch. When they press the remote control, they kill themselves.

Evening. Kevin maliciously introduces Soap to Manilow and tries to set them up as a couple. They fall for it. Meanwhile, the Punisher prepares for an attack on the Medallion.

Characters: Punisher, Soap, Medallion, Hopkins, Kevin, Soap's "girlfriend", Jared, Amber, Manilow

Strictly speaking, it's not necessarily the next day - but there's no obvious reason why it shouldn't be.

* PUNISHER #12. Day 4. The Punisher goes to Badwrench's garage and kills him. [He says that he's "just" killed Amber and Jared before coming there - however, as we see shortly, it's clearly the next morning.] Badwrench's mobile phone rings, and the Punisher answers it. It's the Medallion. The Medallion launches into an explanation of his latest ludicrous scheme - he's met a medical supervillain, Dr Morphine, and plans to abandon all the taxis in favour of a new plan involving ambulances and a new plague. Eventually the Medallion notices that Badwrench isn't talking back, and realises what's happened. He sends all his men to stop the Punisher.

Soap wakes up to find himself in bed with Manilow. He's horrified. He heads straight for the bar to whine at Kevin (who irritably points out that they aren't even open yet.) Meanwhile, Nailow heads for the airport.

The Punisher drives through New York in a heavily armoured taxi, pursued by other armed cabs. Eventually he shakes off his pursuer and crashes straight into the Medallion's building. He hits the Medallion and kills him. As the story ends, the Punisher is about to shoot Hopkins.

Characters: Punisher, Mr Badwrench, Medallion, Dr Morphine, Martin Soap, Manilow, Hopkins

===========

DON CASINO
Part 1: PUNISHER #13 (August 2002) by Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon
Part 2: PUNISHER #14 (September 2002) by Ennis and Dillon

GENERAL COMMENTS:
Back to Garth Ennis, who sticks around for the rest of the run. Most of the upcoming stories are black comedy. No clear indication of how much time has passed since the previous storyline.

Spans a couple of weeks. No indications of season.

SYNOPSIS
* PUNISHER #13, pages 8 to 12 (flashback). "Two days ago" (relative to Casino's rescue). Lucky's Bar. Soap asks Kevin whether his "girlfriend" has been in recently. Kevin says she hasn't been in all week. The Punisher arrives. Soap tells him about Don Casino, who has been missing for over a year. Soap explains that Casino is being held hostage in Colombia by guerrillas who asked for a ten million dollar ransom. His mob family have refused to pay, and the guerrillas will probably kill him. Soap argues that without Casino's relatively restrained leadership, the mobs are heading for a gang war which will kill innocents. If the Punisher goes to Colombia and rescues Casino, he can call a meeting of the families and innocent people will be saved. The Punisher agrees to think about it, and leaves. Soap is approached by John "Bubba" Prong, an ex-con. They talk all night, and leave the bar together.

Characters: Punisher, Martin Soap, Kevin, John "Bubba" Prong

* PUNISHER #14, pages 7, 10 and 11 (flashback). New York. The next day. Soap wakes up in bed with Bubba, in Bubba's flat. He gets up and goes to the kitchen, where he finds severed body parts in the fridge. Bubba attacks him with an axe.

Characters: Martin Soap, Bubba.

Unfortunately for Bubba, Soap was wearing his shoulder holster. We don't see it, but later in issue #14 we're told that Soap shot Bubba in self-defence. In an unusual stroke of good luck, Soap actually managed to kill him.

This scene isn't explicitly labelled as a flashback, but it's obviously meant to be the day after they met in the bar - there are empty bottles and cans on the bedroom floor, and Soap seems alarmed to realise where he is. That requires it to be out of sequence.

On the same day, also off-panel, the Punisher travels to Colombia and hires Guiterrez as his guide.

* PUNISHER #13. A Colombian jungle. The Punisher's second day in Colombia. The Punisher rescues Don Thomas Casino from a camp where he was held by FARC, a rebel movement. Everyone else in the camp is killed in the Punisher's gas attack. Casino immediately realises that being rescued by the Punisher is not an improvement.

The Punisher leads Casino back to their guide, Guiterrez. They evade soldiers from neighbouring FARC camps and make their way back towards Colombia. Unfortunately, they are caught in a net trap set by two soldiers (and intended for wildlife). The Punisher guns the soldiers down, but he and his companions are left to wait for the net to break under their weight.

Characters: Punisher, Don Thomas Casino, Guiterrez

* PUNISHER #14, pages 2 to 6 (flashback). The Colombian jungle, morning. The Punisher's third day in Colombia. The net falls. The Punisher, Guiterrez and Casino continue to evade soldiers and make their way to the nearest town.

Characters: Punisher, Don Thomas Casino, Guiterrez

* PUNISHER #14, pages 1, 7 to 16. A Colombian town. (Not Bogota - that's still several hundred miles away.) Still the Punisher's third day in Colombia. Guiterrez leads the Punisher and Casino to the local gangster Pacheco. Guiterrez and Casino turn on the Punisher and try to sell him out to Pacheco. The Punisher escapes, kills Pacheco and Guiterrez, and takes Casino hostage again.

Characters: Punisher, Don Thomas Casino, Guiterrez, Pacheco

* PUNISHER #14, page 17. New York, several days later. Lucky's Bar. Kevin, Soap and the Punisher are present. The TV news reports that Bubba's funeral was today. In recognition of his "outstanding police work", Soap has been promoted back up to Lieutenant. However, he assures the Punisher that he is still stuck on the Punisher task force. Soap has heard that Casino is back in town, and tells the Punisher that the mob meeting has been called for tomorrow night.

Characters: Punisher, Soap, Kevin

* PUNISHER #14, pages 18 to 22. New York, the next evening. Casino chairs the meeting of mob bosses. And, of course, the Punisher turns up. The story ends there, but subsequent issues confirm that he killed everyone. (This is why he saved Casino in the first place - he really likes the idea of getting all the mob leaders together in one place.)

Characters: Punisher, Casino

===========

THE EXCLUSIVE
PUNISHER #15 (October 2002) by Garth Ennis, Darick Robertson and Nelson

GENERAL COMMENTS:
One evening. No clear indication of time since the previous arc, or of season. It must be less than two months since issue #14, given the timeline for the next arc. The Punisher says, in voiceover, that "Since the Tommy Casino business, the Mob have been in freefall" - so enough time has passed for him to make that judgment.

There is a school of thought which says that this issue is a loose answer to the lauding of outlaw journalists in Robertson's other book of the time, TRANSMETROPOLITAN.

SYNOPSIS:
Lunatic journalist Chuck Self hires two thugs to take Martin Soap hostage, so that the Punisher will allow him to tag along for a night. The Punisher reluctantly agrees. Self considers himself a brilliant journalist, though he might just be a delusional idiot ("I made the Enron-Britney connection... I infiltrated the KKGay..."). Basically, they race around killing people as the Punisher tries to rid himself of Self. While the Punisher's personal ethics won't allow him to simply kill Self (who isn't involved in organised crime), he evidently has no qualms about getting Self killed in the crossfire - which is what happens. The Punisher then races back and rescues Soap.

Characters: Punisher, Martin Soap, Chuck Self

===========

VERTICAL CHALLENGE / AIM LOW
Part 1: PUNISHER #16 (November 2002) by Garth Ennis and Darick Robertson
Part 2: PUNISHER #17 (December 2002) by Ennis and Robertson

GENERAL COMMENTS:
This is the notorious Wolverine storyline. Basically, it's just an exercise in mocking and humiliating Wolverine (and winding up his fans). Throughout the storyline, Wolverine is written in a highly exaggerated parody of really bad mid-nineties Wolverine stories. Imagine Larry Hama at his very worst, multiply by ten, and you get the general idea.

It's been a little over two months since the Punisher attacked Casino's mob meeting (according to Tony Casino in issue #17). "East Coast Mob scene's still an inferno... Not much but soldiers left since Casino and the leadership went down." One might infer, then, that the Kingpin is out of the picture at this point. Fortunately, that happens to fit in relatively nicely with DAREDEVIL.

According to Soap, the midget chainsaw attacks - yes, it's that kind of storyline - have been underway for three days before this arc starts.

The story takes one day.

Obviously, it precedes the "answer" story in WOLVERINE vol 2 #186.

SYNOPSIS
* PUNISHER #16. New York. The Punisher goes to a restaurant, Little Anthony's, planning to kill mobster Pete Grigio. But when he goes in, all that he finds are the severed lower legs of the mobsters.

Across town, Wolverine is in a biker bar. Somebody picks a fight with him and, of course, Wolverine fights back. (He must be in a particularly bad mood, because he uses the claws and maims somebody's hand.) In the confusion, two evil midgets attack somebody, saw off their lower legs, and drag them off down a trap door. Wolverine sees the blood trail, and follows.

Grigio wakes up to find himself in a ward full of maimed mobsters. His brother Paul has also been a victim.

The Punisher phones Soap, who knows off several other recent chainsaw attacks, but isn't of much help. The Punisher heads to another stakeout, and again finds the midgets have got there first. This time he spots their escape route into the underground tunnels and follows.

The Punisher and Wolverine both arrive in the midgets' warehouse headquarters at the same time. Wolverine assumes that the Punisher is responsible, and attacks. They fight to a standstill until the evil midgets emerge from the shadows to claim responsibility.

Characters: Punisher, Wolverine, Martin Soap, Pete Grigio, Paul Grigio, Tony Casino.

* PUNISHER #17. The midgets' leader identifies himself as Tony Casino, the younger brother of the late Tommy Casino. Bitter after years of being mocked by the other mobsters, Casino has formed a midget gang to fill the power vacuum left by his brother's death - and take revenge on the other mobsters by chopping their legs off. Casino tries to enlist the Punisher and Wolverine in his group (on the basis that the Punisher likes hurting mobsters, and Wolverine is short). Obviously, neither of them accept. The midgets are defeated and, in order to stop Wolverine tailing him, the Punisher drives a steamroller over him while he's recovering from the fight. Then he goes to the midgets' hospital ward and kills all of the mobsters they kidnapped.

Characters: Punisher, Wolverine, Martin Soap, Pete Grigio, Paul Grigio, Tony Casino.

Issue #17 also includes a flashback on page 6, which shows Tony Casino as a child being bullied by Tommy Casino and his friends. Tony gives his age as 45, so these flashbacks appear to be somewhere around 30 years ago.

===========

DOWNTOWN
PUNISHER #18 (December 2002) by Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon

GENERAL COMMENTS:
It wouldn't be a Garth Ennis series without a trip to Belfast, would it?

SYNOPSIS:
"Last week" (according to PUNISHER #18). The Punisher finds a criminal, Johnny Peron, who has just been shot 217 times and had a consignment of cocaine stolen from him. Peron directs the Punisher to Belfast, and then dies.

PUNISHER #18, p2pn3 to p4 (flashback). In a bar in America (presumably New York), the Punisher talks with his British Intel contact Yorkie Mitchell. Mitchell briefs him about the situation in Northern Ireland.

Characters: Punisher, Yorkie Mitchell

Somewhere in the intervening week.

PUNISHER #18. Belfast, evening. The Punisher has "just arrived." He meets up with Mitchell's IRA informant, Pat Morrison. Morrison plays along. After some asking around, the Punisher tracks down Declan Fallis as the criminal responsible. He finds himself in a firefight between Fallis, a Catholic terrorist, and the local Protestant gang led by Bobby Colbert. Finding Northern Ireland depressing even by his standards, the Punisher kneecaps Fallis and Colbert and leaves them to fight over a single gun - not telling them that it's empty.

Characters: Punisher, Pat Morrison, Declan Fallis, Bobby Colbert.

===========

OF MICE AND MEN
PUNISHER #19 (January 2003) by Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon

GENERAL COMMENTS:
It's winter - no leaves at all on the trees. This issue takes a fortnight.

The Punisher says that he lived near Joan "a year or two back." Nice and vague, if nothing else.

SYNOPSIS
PUNISHER #19, pages 1 to 3. Day 1. Having received a last-minute tip-off from Soap, the Punisher has gone to Vermont to deal with a multi-million deal between the East Coast families and the Montreal mob. The Russian mob also crashed the deal and shot everyone. The Punisher ecapes into the woods, shot and bleeding. (All of the above is from the Punisher's narration - the story starts here.)

Making his way through the woods, the Punisher stumbles upon the little farmhouse where Joan (from the Ennis miniseries) lives. She takes him into the house.

Characters: Punisher, Joan.

PUNISHER #19, pages 4 to 20. Day 2. The Punisher wakes up in Joan's house. She says that he slept "all day and all night." The Punisher realises that the Russians will be on his trail, and that Joan is in danger. Since he is too badly injured to leave, he tells Joan to phone the police so that he can surrender to the authorities before the Russians arrive. Joan refuses. Instead, she helps the Punisher to fight off the mob and kill them all.

Characters: Punisher, Joan, Russian mobsters

PUNISHER #19, pages 21-22. "A couple of weeks" later. The Punisher has now healed enough to leave, and has fixed up Joan's house to repair the damage. They say goodbye, and the Punisher heads off for New York.

Characters: Punisher, Joan

===========

BROTHERHOOD
Part 1: PUNISHER #20 (February 2003) by Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon
Part 2: PUNISHER #21 (March 2003) by Ennis and Dillon
Part 3: PUNISHER #22 (April 2003) by Ennis and Dillon

GENERAL COMMENTS:
So much for the comedy. We're back to straight stories here. The days, where given, can be extrapolated from dialogue in issue #20, when Pearse's wife tells us it's Tuesday.

No clear references to seasons. Seifert mentions a vacation that he took "at the end of January", which is apparently a few weeks back by now.

SYNOPSIS:
* PUNISHER #20, pages 1-3. Monday. New York. The Punisher is about to kill some mobsters when the police burst in. Officers Mike Pearse and Andy Seifert arrest everyone. The Punisher is still hiding in the rafters, and isn't caught. The Punisher sees Seifert steal some cocaine.

Characters: Punisher, Mike Pearse, Andy Seifert

* PUNISHER #20, pages 4-20. Tuesday. Police department. Pearse has heard that Seifert is trying to get into a poker game run by Lt Leary. Pearse warns Seifert that Leary is corrupt. 

The Punisher asks Soap for information on Pearse and Seifert. Soap reluctantly hands over the files but warns the Punisher not to harm them. Soap threatens to expose the Punisher as a cop killer if he does so - if that happened, the NYPD would actually start looking for him, and he'd be finished. The Punisher agrees that if he uncovers anything, he'll give it to Soap so that they can be arrested.

The Punisher visits Fonseca, the snitch who sent him (and Pearse and Seifert) to the drug deal. In the evening, he tails Seifert to Leary's poker game, and watches from outside the house. Leary introduces Seifert to "Big Pete", who wants to buy the drugs from him. When Pete leaves, the Punisher forces him at gunpoint into the car. (And, presumably, takes him away to be shot.)

Characters: Punisher, Martin Soap, Pearse, Seifert, Lt Leary, Fonseca, "Big Pete."

* PUNISHER #20, pages 21-22. 1.30am, Wednesday morning. The Punisher watches Pearse's house from outside. He sees Pearse drinking and beating his wife Becky.

Characters: Punisher, Pearse, Becky Pearse

* PUNISHER #21, page 1. Wednesday. Andy talks to Becky and tries to persuade her to come home. (It's not entirely clear where they are - possibly Becky's parents' house, or a friend's home.)

Characters: Pearse, Becky.

* PUNISHER #21, pages 2-22. The next week. The Punisher gets to one of Pearse and Seifert's raids before they do, and burns down the building. Seifert is horrified - now, he can't steal the coke and sell it for himself. Pearse realises what is going on. Seifert confesses that he is hopelessly in debt to crimelord Bobby Cestone and desperately needs the money. The Punisher listens in to this conversation. Now he knows that Seifert is corrupt, whereas Pearse is merely a wifebeating alcoholic.

Seifert goes to see Leary. Leary agrees to give him until "the end of the week" to pay up. Fortunately, Big Pete has disappeared (because the Punisher killed him last issue), which has delayed the deal anyway.

Evening. The Punisher goes to see Fonseca again, and kills him. ("Feel better for that.") Pearse visits his priest, Billy, and confesses to beating him wife. Billy encourages Pearse to quit the force - he believes that Pearse can't handle the stress of the job. Night; Becky returns home. Pearse is drunk and beats her again. After she crawls out of the house, Pearse considers suicide, but collapses in tears instead.

Characters: Punisher, Pearse, Seifert, Leary, Fonseca, Father Billy

* PUNISHER #22, pages 1 to 19. The next day. Pearse follows Becky to a women's refuge. The Punisher turns up and drives him off. Later, Billy visits Pearse again.

In the evening, Pearse and Seifert go to Cestone's office. Pearse goes in alone, and hands over some of his own money to go towards Seifert's debt. Cestone realises that Seifert doesn't have the coke which he was going to sell in settlement of the debt. The mobsters mock Pearse. Pearse finally snaps and opens fire on everyone. Seifert runs in to help (after the Punisher fends off a henchman for him). Everyone kills one another. The Punisher remains outside and plays no part in the fight.

Characters: Punisher, Pearse, Seifert, Becky, Father Billy, Leary, Bobby Cestone

* PUNISHER #22, pages 20 to 21. A few days later. The Punisher watches from a distance as Pearse and Seifert are buried. They are given a heroes' burial, on the basis that they exposed Leary's corruption but weren't exposed themselves. Father Billy presides. Becky does not attend.

Characters: Punisher, Pearse, Seifert, Father Billy

===========

SQUID
PUNISHER #23 (May 2003) by Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon

GENERAL COMMENTS:
Green trees.

SYNOPSIS:
* PUNISHER #23, pages 1 to 7. New York, night. A mob poker game. The other players tease Sid Saggio for his bizarre hobby - hunting for giant squid in Brooklyn. The Punisher bursts in and kills everyone; Sid is in the toilet and escapes through the window. As he runs down the street, he is confronted by the ghosts of the other players.

Characters: Punisher, Sid Saggio

* PUNISHER #23, pages 8 and 9. Sid's house. The next day. Sid is still tormented by the ghosts as he tries to get on with his life.

Characters: Sid

* PUNISHER #23, pages 10 and 11. The sea, just off Bensonhurst. Saturday. (We were told during the poker game that Sid hunts for squid on Saturday.) The ghosts plague Sid as he hunts for squid. They demand that he avenges their deaths.

Characters: Sid

* PUNISHER #23, pages 12 to 22. Next week. Lucky's Bar. Soap tells the Punisher that Sid phoned him at work that morning, and left details of a time and place where it would happen. Soap gives the Punisher the details.

The Punisher duly turns up, and fights a bunch of henchmen in an abandoned dockland warehouse. After killing them all, he realises that Saggio isn't there. In fact, Saggio has wired the building with explosives, and detonates them from outside. The Punisher escapes in time. Saggio confronts him on the docks. He is about to shoot the Punisher when a giant squid yanks him into the sea and kills him.

The other ghosts aren't too impressed with Sid's "revenge." But Sid doesn't care, because he's been proved right - there really are giant squid in New York.

Characters: Punisher, Martin Soap, Kevin, Sid

===========

HIDDEN
Part 1: PUNISHER #24 (June 2003) by Garth Ennis and Tom Mandrake
Part 2: PUNISHER #25 (June 2003) by Ennis and Mandrake
Part 3: PUNISHER #26 (July 2003) by Ennis and Mandrake

GENERAL COMMENTS:
This one's a bit weak. All three issues are bookended with flashbacks, the gist of which is to establish that the unnamed character with the big pile of corpses - "the man down below" - was driven mad when, as a child, his obese mother collapsed on top of him and he was left trapped for two weeks.

One night.

SYNOPSIS
* PUNISHER #24. Tuesday. New York. Underneath New York, a nameless lunatic lies under a pile of corpses and cries for his mother.

The Punisher attacks Monk Macchio's crew at their Tuesday night pool game. His gun jams, and the mobsters flee onto the street. The Punisher follows them and kills all but one. The survivor flees into the subway.

A soup kitchen. Jen runs the project, and her friend Paul has turned up to try and chat her up. Ronnie, a deranged homeless man, screams at the others that they should abandon the soup kitchen and go to work for "the man down below", who will feed them better. Jen tries to calm Ronnie down. She persuades him to take her and Paul to see the man down below.

The Punisher finally tracks down the remaining mobster after an hour in the tunnels, and kills him.

Ronnie leads Jen and Paul into the tunnels. Paul immediately turns back and refuses to go past the subway platform. The MDB's other henchmen aren't best pleased that Ronnie has brought Jen to them - he's only supposed to bring homeless people who won't be missed. Now they will have to kill her anyway. The Punisher saves her, and kills her attackers. Jen, a social worker, is not a big fan of the Punisher. But, having no choice, she agrees to follow him out of the tunnels. More henchmen attack. While the Punisher is fighting them, Jen falls down a hole and lands on the pile of corpses below.

Characters: Punisher, the "man down below", Monk Macchio, Jen, Paul, Ronnie

* PUNISHER #25. Same night. On the mound of corpses, Jen finds Paul. He has been captured by the henchmen, cut repeatedly, and left to bleed to death. He is too heavy for Jen to move, so she leaves him to get help. 

The "man down below" crawls out from under his pile of corpses, and is updated on events by his henchmen. He isn't pleased that they attacked Jen and Paul. (The henchmen are all clearly mentally impaired.)

The Punisher escapes the henchmen and returns to the surface. He goes home to get more equipment. He returns to the tunnels, and meets Jen climbing out. She directs him to the corpse pile. The Punisher promptly sets off to kill everyone, despite Jen's protests.

Characters: Punisher, "man down below", Jen, Paul

* PUNISHER #26. Same night. Jen follows the Punisher back into the tunnels. By the time they reach the corpse pile, Paul has bled to death. The Punisher fights off the henchmen and then torches the corpse pile, killing the man down below. The Punisher and Jen return to the surface.

Characters: Punisher, "man down below", Jen, Paul

===========

ELEKTRA
PUNISHER #27 (July 2003) by Garth Ennis and Tom Mandrake

GENERAL COMMENTS:
Rather silly novelty story. However, a rare example of Ennis treating a guest star with more respect than his lead character...

In Elektra's continuity, this probably fits best between ELEKTRA #10-11 - where Elektra has lost her source of work, is starting to go mad from the lack of conflict, but still basically looks like herself. Even the Punisher comments that she's insane.

Green trees. Story lasts one week.

SYNOPSIS
* PUNISHER #27, pages 1-4. New York. Monday evening. The Punisher tries to kill mobster Figsy Goleano, but Elektra turns up and kills Goleano first. The Punisher assumes it's just a coincidence, shrugs his shoulders, and goes home to eat.

Characters: Punisher, Elektra

* PUNISHER #27, pages 5-11. Tuesday. The Punisher tries to kill Anthony Balbo and crew, but again Elektra is there first and kills them all. The Punisher is now getting worried; he gets Soap to meet him at Lucky's with Elektra's file. Soap is horrified that Elektra is hanging around.

Characters: Punisher, Martin Soap, Elektra

* PUNISHER #28, p12pn1. Wednesday. The Punisher arrives to kill the Dell'Oro Brothers and finds Elektra has got there first.

Characters: Punisher, Elektra (bts)

* PUNISHER #28, p12pn2. Thursday. The same with another criminal, Jimmy the Gun.

Characters: Punisher, Elektra (bts)

* PUNISHER #28, p12pn3. Friday. And again with "The Dutchman."

Characters: Punisher, Elektra (bts)

* PUNISHER #28, p13. Saturday. And again with Don Alberto Luigi Pariani.

Characters: Punisher, Elektra

* PUNISHER #28, pages 14-23. Sunday. The Punisher is now convinced that Elektra is trying to kill him, and is playing mind games with him. He turns up for his Sunday hit, on Skinny Vic Strega, hours in advance. Elektra again kills Strega first, but this time she is still there when the Punisher enters the room. Elektra blithely explains that she was bored and "I do things like this when I'm bored." The Punisher invites her for dinner. End of story.

Characters: Punisher, Elektra.

===========

STREETS OF LAREDO
Part 1: PUNISHER #28 (August 2003) by Garth Ennis and Cam Kennedy
Part 2: PUNISHER #29 (September 2003) by Ennis & Kennedy
Part 3: PUNISHER #30 (October 2003) by Ennis & Kennedy
Part 4: PUNISHER #31 (November 2003) by Ennis & Kennedy

GENERAL COMMENTS:
This story spans a total of seven days. For five of those days, the Punisher is in Branding, Texas.


SYNOPSIS
* PUNISHER #28, p2pn4-p10pn3 (flashback). "Two nights ago in Bensonhurst." The Punisher pumps an informant, "Rich the Snitch", for info. Rich finally sends him to a buy in Harlem at midnight that night. The Punisher goes there, only to find that it is a heavily protected arms deal. He is spotted, and a firefight ensues. The Punisher only survives because a stray rocket blows up the ordnance. The Punisher returns to Rich's apartment and extracts the arms dealers' location - Branding, Texas. Because Rich set him up to die, the Punisher kills Rich.

Characters: The Punisher, "Rich the Snitch"

The evening two days before the Punisher arrives in Branding.

*PUNISHER #28. The Punisher arrives in Branding and meets up with hotelier Kim Wells. He learns that the arms dealers are based on a nearby hill where they have their compound. That evening, he picks a fight with some of the dealers in a bar, in the hope of provoking a response. Afterwards, he meets Sheriff Steve Southall and they talk.

Characters: Punisher, Kim Wells, Steve Southall, Gerry (the deputy), Rachel

Two days after the flashback.

*PUNISHER #29. Local preacher Henry McCarthy introduces himself to the Punisher. The Punisher is unimpressed. Up on the hill, Rachel kills a henchman who makes homophobic comments about her son Clark. Clark goes fishing with his boyfriend, Steve. Steve did not know about the gunrunning until the Punisher told him. He tells Clark that he will have to do something about it. Clark tries to persuade Steve to abandon his post so they can run away together, but Steve will have nothing of it. After Clark leaves, Steve gets a call from his deputy Gerry, who has identified the Punisher. At night, Clark tries to phone Steve from a payphone in the main road. He is killed in a drive-by (by McCarthy, as revealed in issue #31).

Characters: Punisher, Henry McCarthy, Kim Wells, Steve Southall, Rachel, Clark, Gerry

The next day - the Punisher refers to the fight in the bar as "last night", and Steve Southall describes the Punisher as the "fella I met last night."

*PUNISHER #30. Furious about Clark's death, Rachel swears revenge on the town. Steve prepares to confront Rachel and her gang, but his deputy Gerry admits that he doesn't have what it takes to fight. Steve understands, and sends Gerry home. Steve goes to see the Punisher and asks for help. The Punisher tells Steve to stay out of it so that he can deal with Rachel himself. But Steve decides to get involved anyway, and sets up a one-man roadblock to confront Rachel and her men. They attack him. Meanwhile, the Punisher sneaks into the compound and kills the people there. Hearing gunfire, the Punisher realises that Steve has started a fight with Rachel and her men. He blows up the armoury as a distraction.

Characters: Punisher, Steve Southall, Gerry, Kim Wells, Rachel, Clark (dcd), Henry McCarthy

Obviously the next day again, since everyone is reacting to Clark's death.

*PUNISHER #31, pp1-8. The Punisher cuts Steve down from where he as left by his attackers. Steve is mortally wounded. Meanwhile, Rachel and her men survey the remnants of their camp. Gerry is distraught about Steve's death; the Punisher sends him to deal with the murderer. That evening, the Punisher again picks a fight with Rachel's men in a local bar, and leaves a message for Rachel to face him in the main street at noon tomorrow.

Characters: Punisher, Steve Southall, Gerry, Rachel, Henry McCarthy

Clearly the next day, because everyone's reacting again.

*PUNISHER #31, pp9-22. Rachel and her men duly turn up; the Punisher fights and kills them all. Gerry arrests McCarthy for the murder; McCarthy makes no attempt to deny his responsibility. That evening, with Gerry's blessing, the Punisher drives out of town - dragging McCarthy behind him.

Characters: Punisher, Rachel, Gerry, Kim Well, Henry McCarthy.

The next day, as per the terms of the Punisher's challenge.

=============

SOAP
PUNISHER #32 (November 2003) by Garth Ennis, Steve Dillon and Matt Milla

GENERAL COMMENTS:
This is a self-contained Martin Soap story, with numerous flashbacks, most of which long predate Soap's entry into continuity. One is recent and is listed here.

Soap makes various chronological references in this story which are clearly relative to publication schedule and accordingly cannot be taken literally.

SYNOPSIS
* PUNISHER #32, page 14 panel 4, page 15 panels 1 and 3-5, page 16 panels 1-4, page 17 panel 1 to page 19 panel 4 (flashback). Day 1. New York. Soap tags along to see the Punisher in action, much to the Punisher's annoyance.

Characters: Punisher, Martin Soap

Clearly the Punisher has returned to New York from Laredo. According to Soap, later that evening he receives an ansaphone message from his "girlfriend", dumping him.

* PUNISHER #32. Day 2. In Kevin's bar, Soap talks about his life to a bizarre transvestite.

Characters: Martin Soap, Kevin

=============

CONFEDERACY OF DUNCES
PUNISHER #33 (December 2003) by Garth Ennis, John McCrea and Danny Miki
PUNISHER #34 (December 2003) by Ennis, McCrea and Miki
PUNISHER #35 (January 2004) by Ennis, McCrea and Miki
PUNISHER #36 (January 2004) by Ennis, McCrea and Miki
PUNISHER #37 (February 2004) by Ennis, McCrea and Miki

GENERAL COMMENTS:
The series ends here.

The main story takes a little over a week. No clear indication of season. The epilogue could be some time later.

SYNOPSIS:
Before the story starts... "Not too long ago", a group of LA criminals stumbled upon the Hulk reverting back to Bruce Banner. They knocked him out, drugged him, and flew him to New York, planning to auction him to the highest bidder. According to the Punisher, all of this was videoed; the Punisher watches the video (but we don't get to see it) in issue #34.

PUNISHER #33.
New York, day 1.
Daredevil enlists Spider-Man and Wolverine to help him capture the Punisher. He hopes that with the weight of numbers and the element of surprise, they can capture him quickly. Meanwhile, across town, the Punisher goes looking for mobster Mickey Cloonan and ends up slaughtering large numbers of the Irish mob in a warehouse shootout. In the aftermath, a dying mobster tells the Punisher that there is a big auction coming, where everyone will be present. [As we find out in issue #37, this is the auctioning of the captive Bruce Banner.]

The Punisher goes to Kevin's bar and asks Martin Soap about the auction. Soap has heard of a big event but doesn't know much more.

The Punisher goes to the streets and beats up snitches until he gets information: the auction is at 3am that night.

He goes home to pick up hardware, and on the way out bumps into Spacker Dave. Dave is now a superhero-spotter, and tailed the Punisher from the bar. The Punisher sends him away. Since he has time before the auction, the Punisher goes to interrogate another informant, Inskipp. However, Inskipp is allied with Daredevil. Daredevil, Spider-Man and Wolverine confront the Punisher. The Punisher baffles them by suggesting that they go to a diner.

Characters: Punisher, Martin Soap, Kevin, Spacker Dave, Daredevil, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Inskipp

PUNISHER #34, pages 1 to 9.
New York, day 1 (night). In a diner, the Punisher provokes Wolverine into a berserker rage and then escapes in the confusion. Spacker Dave turns up and is ecstatic to have witnessed a team-up. Once Daredevil and Spider-Man calm Wolverine down, they start to plan again.

Characters: Punisher, Spacker Dave, Daredevil, Spider-Man, Wolverine.

PUNISHER #34, pages 10 to 22.
New York, day 2 (early morning). The Punisher attends the auction and slaughters everyone present. He makes off with the prize: an unconscious man in the back of a truck. At first the Punisher cannot understand what the fuss was all about. But when he gets home and watches a video which was to have been shown at the auction, he realises that "all my troubles are over." [This is the video referred to in issue #37. Banner is seen very briefly, from behind, in page 21 panel 3.]

Characters: Punisher, Hulk

PUNISHER #35.
New York, day 2. [Daredevil expressly says that they fought Wolverine "last night."] In his hideout, the Punisher feeds stew to the baffled, amnesiac Bruce Banner. As we find out in issue #37, it's laced with explosives.

Daylight; Soap is waiting for Lucky's Bar to open when he is mugged by schoolgirls. Kevin arrives to open up, and laughs at him. Kevin mentions that Soap has been in the bar drinking - and not turning up for work - for four days now.

On a rooftop, Daredevil, Spider-Man and Wolverine discuss strategy again. 

The Punisher needs to buy "a couple of days" before his plan will be ready. In order to buy time, he goes to Hell's Kitchen and tortures a criminal, Tim McKinney. McKinney's screams draw Daredevil's attention, and the three heroes duly respond. The Punisher ambushes them and leads them into a boobytrapped house. Wolverine and Spider-Man both fall into the Punisher's traps - Spider-Man is surrounded by motion-sensor bombs (which are actually duds, since the Punisher won't kill non-criminals) and Wolverine's torso is blown to smithereens by a bazooka But Daredevil evades the traps and reaches the Punisher. They fight, and Daredevil gets the upper hand.

Characters: Punisher, Martin Soap, Kevin, Daredevil, Hulk, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Tim McKinney

PUNISHER #36, pages 1 to 13
New York, day 2 (continued). The Punisher defeats Daredevil and dislocates both his shoulders before leaving. He figures that the heroes will need a couple of days to recover before they'll be in a state to come after him. He returns to his hideout and continues plying Banner with stew.

Kevin finds Soap in the toilets of Lucky's Bar, about to commit suicide by shooting himself. Kevin stops him, but only to avoid the hassle - he sends Soap home to kill himself there. Soap finally snaps and threatens to kill Kevin. When Kevin begs for his life, Soap decides to do his job properly and actually arrest the Punisher.

Characters: Punisher, Martin Soap, Kevin, Daredevil, Hulk, Spider-Man, Wolverine

"A week goes by", off-panel. According to the Punisher, he spends this time keeping a low profile. He also kills a couple of thugs in New Jersey.

PUNISHER #36, pages 14 to 22.
New York, day 9. [In issue #37, on the same day, the Punisher says he fed doctored stew to the Hulk "for the past eight days."] The Punisher challenges the three heroes to meet him at his warehouse hideout in Red Hook at 4pm. (He makes contact by phoning Matt Murdock's office, having read Daredevil's true identity in the papers "a while back".) Spacker Dave is also hanging around the warehouse. As Spider-Man, Daredevil and Wolverine arrive - "bang on time", says the Punisher - he beats up Banner, who turns into the savage Hulk. The Punisher escapes down a manhole, and the Hulk promptly attacks Daredevil, Spider-Man and Wolverine - the only other people in sight. [Issue #37 page 8 panel 4 is a flashback which takes place immediately after the Hulk transforms. It shows the Hulk reading the note that the Punisher left him, in order to cure his amnesia: "You are the Hulk. You like to smash."]

Characters: Punisher, Spacker Dave, Daredevil, Hulk, Spider-Man Wolverine

PUNISHER #37, main story (pages 1 to 17)
New York, day 9 (continued). Spider-Man, Daredevil and Wolverine struggle to contain the Hulk. The Hulk hurls Wolverine away, and Wolverine lands in Boston. Spacker Dave continues to watch, and is injured by the Hulk. The Punisher fights and defeats Daredevil, tying him up. Eventually the Punisher detonates the explosives in the Hulk's stomach, which knocks the Hulk out. (Apparently the Hulk heals over quickly, but is knocked out and reverts to Bruce Banner.) The explosion also knocks out Spider-Man. The Punisher berates Daredevil for wasting his time - "Look at the lengths I've had to go to not to kill you" - and leaves.

Meanwhile, Martin Soap beats up Inskipp and demands to know where the Punisher is. He arrive in time to catch the Punisher leaving the scene, and attempts to arrest him. Soap says that he plans to turn himself in as well. The Punisher ignores him, and Soap shoots in the chest. However, the Punisher's costume is bulletproof, and the shot has no effect. A broken man, Soap collapses in tears. The Punisher wanders off.

As night falls, Wolverine is on a train which he thinks is taking him back to New York. Unfortunately, he's got onto the wrong train and is actually on his way to Philadelphia.

Characters: Punisher, Martin Soap, Spacker Dave, Daredevil, Hulk, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Inskipp

PUNISHER #37, Epilogue (pages 18 to 22)
New York, some time later. Spacker Dave is in hospital. He has been rendered paraplegic for life, but is still naively enthusiastic about everything. In his room, he sees Iron Man flying past the window, and is thrilled.

Soap, we're told, has moved to Los Angeles and has become "a major star in the adult film industry." The panel shows a stack of DVDs; the top one is titled "They All Bend Over For The Soap", and there's a photo of Soap on the cover, so arguably this counts as an appearance. The cover is partly obscured and it's unclear whether he's making gay or straight porn - though the implication is fairly obvious.

The Punisher commemorates "four years since I came back" - in PUNISHER vol 5 #1 - by taking Innskipp to the top of the Empire State Building and throwing him off. As Innskipp falls to his death, the Punisher reflects on the World Trade Center disaster. He believes that, since 9/11, America has finally come to see the world his way. ("See?, I thought. See now? See what the world is really like?")

Characters: Punisher, Spacker Dave, Iron Man, Inskipp 

			*	*	*

Punisher Calendar
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 04, 2004 at 14:13:58:

In Reply to: Chronology review: PUNISHER posted by Paul O'Brien on January 03, 2004 at 05:09:58:

> Told you it was nearly ready...

This is great, Paul. Thanks!

Because of your notes, I have assigned tentative calendar dates to issues #1-32 of Punisher, vol. 6. Before I get to that, three questions:

1) I assume the "last week" scene in PUN3 18 is a flashback, separate from the flashback on pages 2-4. What is the page/panel range for this flashback?

2) You mention that Seifert notes a vacation that he took "at the end of January." Where in PUN3 20-22 is this reference?

3) Your notes don't include lunar cycles, but I'm not sure if it's because there are no lunar depictions in the comics. Because time is a bit loose in these issues, we can rely to a degree on lunar references for exact calendar placement.

Those things having been said, I grounded a lot of the calendar placement on Elektra's appearance in PUN6 27. You make a good point about Elektra's chronology here; it certainly makes sense for her to be in that issue between ELEK 10 and 11. Because of Elektra's interaction with Daredevil, and the fact that we have Daredevil's calendar nailed down pretty well, we can get a fairly precise calendar placement for PUN6 27. Then, to place the other issues, I basically went backward and forward from this point, being mindful of Punisher's other MU appearances and trying to work around major events like the Kang War, plus the reference to the cabbie killings having started in "November" (which could have been a few months earlier).

Here's what I came up with. If you pay attention to publication dates, you'll note that comics of different titles appear out of order of publication. This is not a big concern of mine, as long as character chronologies aren't messed up in doing this. Issues in any one title do appear in numerical order.
(Key -- MK=Marvel Knights; MK2 = Marvel Knights, vol. 2; PUN6 = Punisher, vol. 6; TB = Thunderbolts; JLA/A = JLA/Avengers; MK:DS = Marvel Knights: Double-Shot; GK = Get Kraven; AX = Agent X; CM6 = Captain Marvel, vol. 6; W2 = Wolverine, vol. 2)

September (of 9-11)
MK 1-10

February
PUN6 1-5

March
PUN6 6-8
TB 57-58
PUN6 9-12
MK 11-15
PUN6 13-14

April
PUN6 15
MK2 1-6

May
MK:DS 4/2
JLA/A 1
PUN6 16-17

June
PUN6 18-20

July
PUN6 21-27

Aug
GK 1/2
AX 2

Sept
PUN6 28-31

Oct
CM6 2

Nov
PUN6 32

Jan
W2 186

At least I hope I have things right here...

Clearly, the last story arc of PUN6 (#33-37) occurs sometime after W2 186, but obviously we need to work this story into the chronologies of Wolverine, Spider-Man, Daredevil, and the Hulk. Iron Man seems to be less of a consideration here. Then there's the reference in the epilogue to PUN3 37 to it being "four years" since PUN5 1, and that will probably turn out to be a little too long.

Kevin's the Hulk and DD expert, Antonio's the Spidey guy, and Jeph may have a few things to say about Wolverine. From your description, Paul, there don't appear to be many temporal references (relative or absolute) to go on here. Obviously, this story occurs a while after DD's identity was reported, but placement after W2 186 would make this the case anyway. The Hulk's travels may be the defining factor here.

I'll wait to place this story on the calendar, pending questions and remarks from others.

Again, thanks Paul. Great job.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Punisher Calendar
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 04, 2004 at 18:59:10:
In Reply to: Punisher Calendar 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 04, 2004 at 14:13:58:

> 1) I assume the "last week" scene in PUN3 18 is a flashback, separate from the flashback on pages 2-4. What is the page/panel range for this flashback?

The "last week" scene isn't depicted on panel at all. The Punisher simply says that it happened. The reference is page 10 panel 4.

> 2) You mention that Seifert notes a vacation that he took "at the end of January." Where in PUN3 20-22 is this reference?

Punisher #20, page 9, panel 2.

> 3) Your notes don't include lunar cycles, but I'm not sure if it's because there are no lunar depictions in the comics. 

Not that I could see. There isn't much scope for shots of the skyline in these issues...

>Iron Man seems to be less of a consideration here. 

I agree; Iron Man is just flying around over New York. Granted, he doesn't live in New York - but the natural assumption is that he's on his way to or from Avengers Mansion.

> Again, thanks Paul. Great job.

No problem! 

			*	*	*

Re: Punisher Calendar
Posted by Dimadick on January 05, 2004 at 03:31:40:
In Reply to: Punisher Calendar 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 04, 2004 at 14:13:58:

Great work Paul but I'm afraid you forgot a cameo appearance.

Punisher also appears in two pages of Wolverine #183 where he stalks the "Sons of Italy" private club. He sees Wolvie slay all but one of those present and then walks away. This was part of the gang war between the Roman and Freddo Pazzo. In issue #186 Frank confronts Logan about his decision to let Johny Delacavva succeed Freddo. The two appearances seem to shortly follow each other. 

			*	*	*

Re: Punisher Calendar
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 05, 2004 at 09:25:46:
In Reply to: Re: Punisher Calendar 
posted by Dimadick on January 05, 2004 at 03:31:40:

> Great work Paul but I'm afraid you forgot a cameo appearance.

I hadn't forgotten it. I just didn't mention it. :-)

> Punisher also appears in two pages of Wolverine #183 where he stalks the "Sons of Italy" private club. 

He does indeed. However, from memory, what happens in that issue is that the Punisher turns up for a planned hit, and finds that Wolverine has got there first. His reaction is basically to shrug his shoulders and go home. My feeling is that this appearance precedes the Wolverine/midget storyline - in that arc, the Punisher's main aim vis a vis Wolverine was to get the hell away from him. In WOLVERINE #183, the Punisher seems to feel no particular urgency about leaving - he just goes home because there's nothing for him to do.

My feeling, then, is that the Punisher and Wolverine cross paths (but don't actually meet) in WOLVERINE #183, by coincidence. In PUNISHER #16-17, they "team up" against the midgets, and the Punisher turns on Wolverine. His intention is to stay away from Wolverine for the forseeable future.

When the Punisher learns that Wolverine has installed a new mob boss, however, he changes his mind and goes to hunt Wolverine down, as seen in WOLVERINE #186. (Prior to that, the Punisher regards Wolverine, like most superheroes, as a well-meaning nuisance. When Wolverine actually assists a mobster, the Punisher regards this as crossing an ethical line.) 

			*	*	*

Too many Pauls!
Posted by Jeph! on January 05, 2004 at 12:37:24:
In Reply to: Re: Punisher Calendar 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 05, 2004 at 09:25:46:

> > Great work Paul but I'm afraid you forgot a cameo appearance.

> I hadn't forgotten it. I just didn't mention it. :-)

Wrong Paul. Paul Bourcier left W2 #183 off the Punisher calendar he just posted...

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Too many Pauls!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 05, 2004 at 19:44:44:
In Reply to: Too many Pauls! 
posted by Jeph! on January 05, 2004 at 12:37:24:

> > > Great work Paul but I'm afraid you forgot a cameo appearance.

> > I hadn't forgotten it. I just didn't mention it. :-)

> Wrong Paul. Paul Bourcier left W2 #183 off the Punisher calendar he just posted...

That's true; I apologize for the oversight. But to address the "other Paul"'s comment about the relative placement of W2 183 and PUN6 16-17...

I'm afraid I have W2 183 happening several months after PUN6 16-17 (i.e. shortly before W2 186 in January). Does this really pose a problem, especially since I have such a long period of time between the two issues?

--Paul B.

			*	*	*

Re: Too many Pauls!
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 06, 2004 at 08:45:06:
In Reply to: Re: Too many Pauls! 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 05, 2004 at 19:44:44:

> I'm afraid I have W2 183 happening several months after PUN6 16-17 (i.e. shortly before W2 186 in January). Does this really pose a problem, especially since I have such a long period of time between the two issues?

Not fundamentally; the Punisher's main concern is to avoid an unnecessary fight with Wolverine which would distract him from his business. He won't attack Wolverine on sight. Wolverine will attack him, but may simply not have noticed him - he's outside the building, and Wolverine is busy having a fight inside, as I recall. 

			*	*	*

Re: Punisher Calendar + Hulk, DD comments...
Posted by Kevin on January 05, 2004 at 20:14:09:
In Reply to: Punisher Calendar 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 04, 2004 at 14:13:58:

Hope you don't mind, but I'll point out a couple of things I noticed from the few issues I managed to round up before giving up on the Punisher. 

> September (of 9-11)
> MK 1-10

> February
> PUN6 1-5

> March
> PUN6 6-8
> TB 57-58
> PUN6 9-12
> MK 11-15
> PUN6 13-14


In issue 10, pages 1-4, Punisher kills the taxi cab driver trying to kill him. The building that taxi crashes into says, "Waccio Comes Alive! Store Performance and signing: Sat., March 25, 11 pm" 

So if you want Punisher #9-12 to happen in March, that's fine, but I'd say it needs to happen before March 25th...

> April
> PUN6 15
> MK2 1-6

> May
> MK:DS 4/2
> JLA/A 1
> PUN6 16-17

> June
> PUN6 18-20

> July
> PUN6 21-27

As Paul O. noted, Punisher 19 seems to clearly be in winter. One of the thugs comments on how cold it is outside, and the trees don't have any leaves. Also, on pg. 21, Joan comments, (upon noticing all the mounds where the Punisher buried all the Russian mobsters): "Should get some nice big roses in the Spring." So it's clearly not Spring, and more than likely Winter. 

Also, as Paul O. noted, in Punisher #21, Siefert makes a comment about a "-vacation at the end of January." And the dialogue seems to indicate this was a just a few short weeks back. As Punisher #19 seems to happen in Winter, and Issue #21 is after a vacation period in January, this is probably still winter time, perhaps Feb. or March...another clue that adds to that is Det. Pearse comments, "It's freezing out here." in the morning, talking to his wife. 

Sorry if this interferes with the calender you just set up, but I felt it was neccesary to provide those details. Make of them what you will though. ;-)

I'll also take this time to verify Paul O. saying that their is no shots of the moon to use in the issues illustrated by Steve Dillon at least, (from doing my own research)...It's strange, most comic illustrators love to depict the moon and the stars, yet I don't recall (and my notes from these issues agree) any depictions of such things (like Full Moons) in any of these issues...

> Aug
> GK 1/2
> AX 2

> Sept
> PUN6 28-31

> Oct
> CM6 2

> Nov
> PUN6 32

> Jan
> W2 186

> Kevin's the Hulk and DD expert, Antonio's the Spidey guy, and Jeph may have a few things to say about Wolverine. From your description, Paul, there don't appear to be many temporal references (relative or absolute) to go on here. Obviously, this story occurs a while after DD's identity was reported, but placement after W2 186 would make this the case anyway. The Hulk's travels may be the defining factor here.

> I'll wait to place this story on the calendar, pending questions and remarks from others.

> Again, thanks Paul. Great job.

> --Paul

Well, let me start by the following quote from Paul O.'s write up:

> SYNOPSIS:
Before the story starts... "Not too long ago", a group of LA criminals stumbled upon the Hulk reverting back to Bruce Banner. They knocked him out, drugged him, and flew him to New York, planning to auction him to the highest bidder. According to the Punisher, all of this was videoed; the Punisher watches the video (but we don't get to see it) in issue #34.


I take it this was never shown in a flashback. Question #1: Still, does it say that the Hulk was in LA specifically? (Cause you mention they were LA criminals)...in the last two years of "Banner on the Run" he's been all over the Midwest and the Southwest, and up into Canada and New York. But never any specific mention of Los Angeles. 

Still, we're in Feb./March in the current issues of Hulk on the calender...I don't suppose it would be too hard to find one period where his wandering could take him to LA.

Question #2: Does the Hulk talk at all? Does he sound like Classic Stupid Hulk, (you know, stuff like, "GRRR! HULK SMASH!" Because the last two years in the Hulk title, Bruce Jones has written the Hulk to be something BESIDES classic stupid Hulk...a Hulk that either doesn't speak at all, or if he does speak, it's because Banner's in control of the Hulk body...

Still, Hulk recently appeared in Avengers #74 and 75, speaking like classic stupid Hulk...it appears that Bruce Jones is the only writer in the Marvel Universe who will abide by the persona he's established for the current Hulk....maybe we'll just have to write these other appearances off as "Hulk lapsing back into an old personality" ?

Question #3: I believe I saw Jeph mention, (and from what I've seen of previews), Issue #56 of DD takes place 1 year from the last Bendis storyline, exactly 1 year after DD beat up Kingpin as seen in DD#50. I happened to look through Punisher #36 in the comic store, (I didn't buy it) and the scene where Punisher calls up Matt Murdock at his law office, I seem to recall Matt denying at first that he's DD to the Punisher. Punisher just tells him to "can the act" or something like that...I believe that after DD#50, Matt no longer cares who knows whether he's DD or not, (though the upcoming issue #56 may prove me wrong, I'll double check in a couple more weeks when it comes out). So if Matt is at first denying over the phone to the Punisher that he's DD, then I'd say this storyline occurs before DD#50...I'll have more thoughts on this after DD#56 comes out.

			*	*	*

Re: Punisher Calendar + Hulk, DD comments...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 05, 2004 at 22:12:59:
In Reply to: Re: Punisher Calendar + Hulk, DD comments... 
posted by Kevin on January 05, 2004 at 20:14:09:

> Hope you don't mind, but I'll point out a couple of things I noticed from the few issues I managed to round up before giving up on the Punisher. 

> > September (of 9-11)
> > MK 1-10

> > February
> > PUN6 1-5

> > March
> > PUN6 6-8
> > TB 57-58
> > PUN6 9-12
> > MK 11-15
> > PUN6 13-14

> 
> In issue 10, pages 1-4, Punisher kills the taxi cab driver trying to kill him. The building that taxi crashes into says, "Waccio Comes Alive! Store Performance and signing: Sat., March 25, 11 pm" 

> So if you want Punisher #9-12 to happen in March, that's fine, but I'd say it needs to happen before March 25th...

March 10. Isn't it cool when this happens? :-)


> > April
> > PUN6 15
> > MK2 1-6

> > May
> > MK:DS 4/2
> > JLA/A 1
> > PUN6 16-17

> > June
> > PUN6 18-20

> > July
> > PUN6 21-27

> As Paul O. noted, Punisher 19 seems to clearly be in winter. One of the thugs comments on how cold it is outside, and the trees don't have any leaves. Also, on pg. 21, Joan comments, (upon noticing all the mounds where the Punisher buried all the Russian mobsters): "Should get some nice big roses in the Spring." So it's clearly not Spring, and more than likely Winter. 

> Also, as Paul O. noted, in Punisher #21, Siefert makes a comment about a "-vacation at the end of January." And the dialogue seems to indicate this was a just a few short weeks back. As Punisher #19 seems to happen in Winter, and Issue #21 is after a vacation period in January, this is probably still winter time, perhaps Feb. or March...another clue that adds to that is Det. Pearse comments, "It's freezing out here." in the morning, talking to his wife. 

> Sorry if this interferes with the calender you just set up, but I felt it was neccesary to provide those details. Make of them what you will though. ;-)

Thanks for those extra notes, Kevin. I could move those issues of PUN6 forward several months to the following winter. HOWEVER that would require either:

1) rearranging Elektra's chronology so that she appears in PUN6 27 much later than between ELEK 10 and 11; or

2) keeping Elektra's appearance in PUN6 27 right where it is and declaring that story as a flashback tale, out of sequence with other issues of PUN6.

So do I opt for one of the two choices above, or keep things as they are? 

BTW, option #1 would allow us to move PUN3 16-17 forward in time too to place W2 183 and 186 before PUN6 16-17.

BUT, another factor to consider is this: pushing these issues of Punisher ahead causes us to run into the problem Kevin mentions of having PUN3 36 occur after DD2 50. On my current calendar, I have only PUN3 32 occurring after DD2 50, but I can easily roll that, and PUN3 33-37, back to occur before DD2 50 (at least in theory, unless it conflicts with Logan's and Hulk's chronologies).

So then, do we honor the Elektra and Daredevil chronologies and declare those cold and freezing references topical?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Punisher Calendar + Hulk, DD comments...
Posted by Kevin on January 06, 2004 at 20:54:33:
In Reply to: Re: Punisher Calendar + Hulk, DD comments... 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 05, 2004 at 22:12:59:

> 
> > > April
> > > PUN6 15
> > > MK2 1-6

> > > May
> > > MK:DS 4/2
> > > JLA/A 1
> > > PUN6 16-17

> > > June
> > > PUN6 18-20

> > > July
> > > PUN6 21-27

> > As Paul O. noted, Punisher 19 seems to clearly be in winter. One of the thugs comments on how cold it is outside, and the trees don't have any leaves. Also, on pg. 21, Joan comments, (upon noticing all the mounds where the Punisher buried all the Russian mobsters): "Should get some nice big roses in the Spring." So it's clearly not Spring, and more than likely Winter. 

> > Also, as Paul O. noted, in Punisher #21, Siefert makes a comment about a "-vacation at the end of January." And the dialogue seems to indicate this was a just a few short weeks back. As Punisher #19 seems to happen in Winter, and Issue #21 is after a vacation period in January, this is probably still winter time, perhaps Feb. or March...another clue that adds to that is Det. Pearse comments, "It's freezing out here." in the morning, talking to his wife. 

> > Sorry if this interferes with the calender you just set up, but I felt it was neccesary to provide those details. Make of them what you will though. ;-)

> Thanks for those extra notes, Kevin. I could move those issues of PUN6 forward several months to the following winter. HOWEVER that would require either:

> 1) rearranging Elektra's chronology so that she appears in PUN6 27 much later than between ELEK 10 and 11; or

> 2) keeping Elektra's appearance in PUN6 27 right where it is and declaring that story as a flashback tale, out of sequence with other issues of PUN6.

> So do I opt for one of the two choices above, or keep things as they are? 

I wouldn't support Option #2 unless there was no other way around it. Rearranging issues out of their publication date doesn't strike me as a good policy.

You'd have to ask Paul O. about other possible places to put Electra's appaerance in PUN6 #27, I don't know anything about Electra's chronology. 

> BTW, option #1 would allow us to move PUN3 16-17 forward in time too to place W2 183 and 186 before PUN6 16-17.

If it would help smooth out Wolverine's chronology, all the better. 

> BUT, another factor to consider is this: pushing these issues of Punisher ahead causes us to run into the problem Kevin mentions of having PUN3 36 occur after DD2 50. On my current calendar, I have only PUN3 32 occurring after DD2 50, but I can easily roll that, and PUN3 33-37, back to occur before DD2 50 (at least in theory, unless it conflicts with Logan's and Hulk's chronologies).

> So then, do we honor the Elektra and Daredevil chronologies and declare those cold and freezing references topical?

> --Paul

I agree that if it interferes with character chronology, we shouldn't move it forward to the next winter. Character chronologies always override weather references for me. I just felt the need to bring up those winter references. If they can be put to use, they need to be, because as we've discussed, there wasn't much in the way of skyline/weather references throughout the course of this latest Punisher series.

I'll have more to say on DD's chronology in a couple of weeks, after DD #56 comes out. 

			*	*	*

Re: Punisher Calendar + Hulk, DD comments...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 07, 2004 at 16:48:44:
In Reply to: Re: Punisher Calendar + Hulk, DD comments... 
posted by Kevin on January 06, 2004 at 20:54:33:

> You'd have to ask Paul O. about other possible places to put Electra's appaerance in PUN6 #27, I don't know anything about Electra's chronology. 

Elektra's continuity has plenty of gaps. The problem is finding a space where it makes sense for the character. In PUNISHER #27, Elektra is going around attacking criminals - without being hired to do so - on the basis that she's bored. However, in ELEKTRA, Elektra was shown as going insane when she was deprived of work.

The most logical place to fit the story - where Elektra is acting rather uncharacteristically, attacking people without provocation - is at the early stages of her mental decay.

Another possibility might be that, following her recovery and reversion to type as an assassin, she starts random killings of criminals to keep her hand in during slow periods, in order to avoid a similar mental decline in future.

				*	*	*

Re: Punisher Calendar + Hulk, DD comments...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 06, 2004 at 05:22:54:
In Reply to: Re: Punisher Calendar + Hulk, DD comments... 
posted by Kevin on January 05, 2004 at 20:14:09:

At work, but a few comments from memory...

>It's strange, most comic illustrators love to depict the moon and the stars, yet I don't recall (and my notes from these issues agree) any depictions of such things (like Full Moons) in any of these issues...

I don't think PUNISHER is the sort of book that generally calls for nice wide shots of the skyline. Partly, it's inner city - so angling the camera to see the moon would require a rather unusual camera angle, and Dillon doesn't go in for that sort of thing. Unless you go for nice wide shots of the skyline - but it's just not that kind of book. It ought to look more claustrophobic than that.


> I take it this was never shown in a flashback. Question #1: Still, does it say that the Hulk was in LA specifically? 

Correct, we never see it. I'd have to check whether the Punisher says it was LA or whether he says they were LA criminals. It's unclear how he would know - but since the suggestion is that they simply stumbled upon Banner by luck, I'd think it unlikely that they were way across country at the time.

> Question #2: Does the Hulk talk at all? 

Yes. Hulk smash. It's unequivocally the dumb Hulk.

Of course, Banner's been drugged for most of the storyline, so if you want to explain away his behaviour, you might rely on that.

			*	*	*

Re: Punisher Calendar + Hulk, DD comments...
Posted by Kevin on January 06, 2004 at 21:04:10:
In Reply to: Re: Punisher Calendar + Hulk, DD comments... 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 06, 2004 at 05:22:54:

> At work, but a few comments from memory...

> >It's strange, most comic illustrators love to depict the moon and the stars, yet I don't recall (and my notes from these issues agree) any depictions of such things (like Full Moons) in any of these issues...

> I don't think PUNISHER is the sort of book that generally calls for nice wide shots of the skyline. Partly, it's inner city - so angling the camera to see the moon would require a rather unusual camera angle, and Dillon doesn't go in for that sort of thing. Unless you go for nice wide shots of the skyline - but it's just not that kind of book. It ought to look more claustrophobic than that.


I'd agree about Punisher having a darker atmosphere, but other artists drawing inner city titles still find time to include a gigantic full moon in every issue which looks waaaaay to close to the Earth for it to not mess up global conditions. ;-)

> 
> > I take it this was never shown in a flashback. Question #1: Still, does it say that the Hulk was in LA specifically? 

> Correct, we never see it. I'd have to check whether the Punisher says it was LA or whether he says they were LA criminals. It's unclear how he would know - but since the suggestion is that they simply stumbled upon Banner by luck, I'd think it unlikely that they were way across country at the time.

> > Question #2: Does the Hulk talk at all? 

> Yes. Hulk smash. It's unequivocally the dumb Hulk.

> Of course, Banner's been drugged for most of the storyline, so if you want to explain away his behaviour, you might rely on that.

I suspected as much. Still, you may be on to as good an explanation as any: the heavy dosages of drugs, and the abuse he was put through, plus the amnesia, might have resulted in a reverting back to his old Stupid Hulk personality. Now if only Hulk's dialogue in Avengers #74-75 could be explained as easily. ;-)

You'll have to forgive my rambling on in "Question #3" but there was something I was meaning to ask amidst that rambling. As I didn't buy these issues, I can't confirm, but was there ANY indications that Matt Murdock DID or DID NOT care who knew his secret identity? I'm just going by memory alone, from looking at that scene where Punisher calls up Matt Murdock at his law office.

			*	*	*

Re: Punisher Calendar + Hulk, DD comments...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 07, 2004 at 02:22:11:
In Reply to: Re: Punisher Calendar + Hulk, DD comments... 
posted by Kevin on January 06, 2004 at 21:04:10:

Just ignore the duplicate post...

> You'll have to forgive my rambling on in "Question #3" but there was something I was meaning to ask amidst that rambling. As I didn't buy these issues, I can't confirm, but was there ANY indications that Matt Murdock DID or DID NOT care who knew his secret identity?

When the Punisher phones Matt, Matt immediately denies being Daredevil and says that the newspaper's story has been disproved. 

			*	*	*

Punisher Calendar: Hulk, DD, Spidey, Logan comments...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 07, 2004 at 06:57:56:
In Reply to: Re: Punisher Calendar + Hulk, DD comments... 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 07, 2004 at 02:22:11:

> Just ignore the duplicate post...

> > You'll have to forgive my rambling on in "Question #3" but there was something I was meaning to ask amidst that rambling. As I didn't buy these issues, I can't confirm, but was there ANY indications that Matt Murdock DID or DID NOT care who knew his secret identity?

> When the Punisher phones Matt, Matt immediately denies being Daredevil and says that the newspaper's story has been disproved.

So would this confirm placement of PUN6 33-37 before DD2 50?

If so, I'm thinking of placing PUN6 33-37 between pages 15 and 21 of DD2 46. That would put the story sometime between Sept. 5 and 20, as the calendar is now structured.

Given this calendar placement, I'm not sure how Spidey would fit in here, pending Antonio's Spidey chronology.

Placing Wolverine here at this time would necessitate working around W2 179-180 (a Canada trip) and Wolverine:Netsuke (a Japan trip), which I believe is possible to do.

Hulk would end up being in PUN6 33-37 during the huge gap of time between H3 33 and 34. Kevin, would that make sense?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Punisher Calendar: Hulk, DD, Spidey, Logan comments...
Posted by Kevin on January 07, 2004 at 22:07:03:
In Reply to: Punisher Calendar: Hulk, DD, Spidey, Logan comments... 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 07, 2004 at 06:57:56:


> > When the Punisher phones Matt, Matt immediately denies being Daredevil and says that the newspaper's story has been disproved.

> So would this confirm placement of PUN6 33-37 before DD2 50?

> If so, I'm thinking of placing PUN6 33-37 between pages 15 and 21 of DD2 46. That would put the story sometime between Sept. 5 and 20, as the calendar is now structured.

Yes, that would probably work out just fine...so IF Matt Murdock truly no longer cares who knows whether he's DD or not after DD #50, (as I believe is what's going on) then YES, Punisher 33-37 must occur before DD #50. After the latest DD issue comes out in the next week or two, I'll read it, and finally get around to posting my synopsis for the last few issues of Daredevil.

> Hulk would end up being in PUN6 33-37 during the huge gap of time between H3 33 and 34. Kevin, would that make sense?

> --Paul

Holy Crap, you're right! I'd gotten ahead of myself, and thought this was an appearance of the Hulk AFTER the "Secret Conspiracy" storyline is in full swing, starting after Hulk #34. I was in the next year, when we're still in the year directly AFTER the Sept. 11th attacks...and we'd pretty much HAVE to be in that year, as this storyline more than likely MUST go before DD#50...

This actually would work out great, because we can then safely explain the Classic Stupid Hulk persona being on display...as we don't see the newest Hulk, (the silent monster Hulk) for the first time until H #34, we can just say this appearance in Punisher is before Banner mastered his mind, and suppressed all the other Hulk personalities, (like Stupid Hulk).

Thanks for the answers you've provided, Paul O. and Paul B.! ;-)

Just like the DD chronology, I'll post Hulk chronology for the latest issues in the next couple of weeks... 

			*	*	*

Punisher Calendar: Spidey check
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 08, 2004 at 20:13:28:
In Reply to: Re: Punisher Calendar: Hulk, DD, Spidey, Logan comments... 
posted by Kevin on January 07, 2004 at 22:07:03:

> Holy Crap, you're right! I'd gotten ahead of myself, and thought this was an appearance of the Hulk AFTER the "Secret Conspiracy" storyline is in full swing, starting after Hulk #34. I was in the next year, when we're still in the year directly AFTER the Sept. 11th attacks...and we'd pretty much HAVE to be in that year, as this storyline more than likely MUST go before DD#50...

> This actually would work out great, because we can then safely explain the Classic Stupid Hulk persona being on display...as we don't see the newest Hulk, (the silent monster Hulk) for the first time until H #34, we can just say this appearance in Punisher is before Banner mastered his mind, and suppressed all the other Hulk personalities, (like Stupid Hulk).

Okay, then. To recap, we've confirmed that placement of PUN6 33-37 in September -- between pages 15 and 16 of DD2 46 and between H3 33 and 34 -- makes sense given Daredevil's and Hulk's chronologies. It also makes some sense in relation to a July placement of Elektra in PUN6 27 (between ELEKTRA 10 and 11, as originally proposed -- although other placements can make sense too). Given the nine-day span involved, Wolverine can be placed in PUN6 33-37 between W2 180 (a Canada trip) and Wolverine: Netsuke (a Japan trip).

The one remaining hitch is Spider-Man. My tentative placements of the events in PUN6 33-37 that involve him are Sept. 7, 8, and 18. Antonio, can these dates be accommodated in your Spidey calendar? And, for those with the Punisher issues, is it okay for Spidey to make other appearances in the ten-day gap between Sept. 8 and 18 -- or are we to believe that DD, Spidey and Logan are hanging out together that whole time?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Punisher Calendar: Wolverine check
Posted by Jeph! on January 08, 2004 at 22:51:25:
In Reply to: Punisher Calendar: Spidey check 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 08, 2004 at 20:13:28:

>Given the nine-day span involved, Wolverine can be placed in PUN6 33-37 between W2 180 (a Canada trip) and Wolverine: Netsuke (a Japan trip).

Hang on here. Are you proposing placing this arc BEFORE the Wolvie/Punisher meet-up in W2 #186?

No no no no no.

W2 #186 was a sequel to PUN6 #16-17 -- and there's some very clear inferences that Wolvie and the Punisher *haven't seen each other* since then. In particular, Wolvie's still mad about the steamroller incident from #17.

Placing PUN6 #33-37 before W2 #186 doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Is there any alternate placement we can work out for this thing? Sure, it needs to go before DD2 #50, and sure, we're trying to push DD2 #50 back in relation to other books, in order to prepare to accomodate the one-year gap between #50 and #56 ... but pushing it THIS far back disrupts Wolvie's chronology.

If you're looking for a way to explain the Stupid Hulk appearance, what about placing it just before the Avengers' "Search for She-Hulk" arc, and explaining the out-of-character Stupid Hulk in BOTH arcs as a holdover effect from being drugged in THIS arc?

Dunno. I'm just tossing ideas out at this point. But please, re-think your current placement, for Wolvie's sake.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Punisher Calendar: Wolverine check
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 09, 2004 at 07:03:55:
In Reply to: Re: Punisher Calendar: Wolverine check 
posted by Jeph! on January 08, 2004 at 22:51:25:

> >Given the nine-day span involved, Wolverine can be placed in PUN6 33-37 between W2 180 (a Canada trip) and Wolverine: Netsuke (a Japan trip).

> Hang on here. Are you proposing placing this arc BEFORE the Wolvie/Punisher meet-up in W2 #186?

> No no no no no.

> W2 #186 was a sequel to PUN6 #16-17 -- and there's some very clear inferences that Wolvie and the Punisher *haven't seen each other* since then. In particular, Wolvie's still mad about the steamroller incident from #17.

> Placing PUN6 #33-37 before W2 #186 doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Is there any alternate placement we can work out for this thing? Sure, it needs to go before DD2 #50, and sure, we're trying to push DD2 #50 back in relation to other books, in order to prepare to accomodate the one-year gap between #50 and #56 ... but pushing it THIS far back disrupts Wolvie's chronology.

> If you're looking for a way to explain the Stupid Hulk appearance, what about placing it just before the Avengers' "Search for She-Hulk" arc, and explaining the out-of-character Stupid Hulk in BOTH arcs as a holdover effect from being drugged in THIS arc?

> Dunno. I'm just tossing ideas out at this point. But please, re-think your current placement, for Wolvie's sake.


How about re-thinking the calendar placement of W2 177-186? Can we push this whole span of issues back, say, to July and August -- around the time Logan is popping in and out of New Orleans dealing with Storm's rehabilitation?

--Paul 

			*	*	*

Re: Punisher Calendar: Wolverine check
Posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2004 at 10:53:39:
In Reply to: Re: Punisher Calendar: Wolverine check 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 09, 2004 at 07:03:55:

> How about re-thinking the calendar placement of W2 177-186? Can we push this whole span of issues back, say, to July and August -- around the time Logan is popping in and out of New Orleans dealing with Storm's rehabilitation?

Well, I originally HAD W2 #177-180 shortly after Storm's rehab begins in XXX #1 -- of course, I also had Punisher v6 *16-17* there too...

I find it hard to believe that it's necessary to place this Punisher arc so very far back ... I mean, it was published just this past month. The Hulk title is currently on #64 -- and you're placing this before #34?! It just doesn't feel right to me.

Is this Wolvie/Hulk meet-up going to end up falling *before* the Wolvie/Hulk meet-up in "Six Hours", which was published almost a year ago?

Why?

To me, this series should occur after:

- Spidey and Wolvie cross paths in "Spider-Man / Wolverine"
- Wolvie and Hulk cross paths in "Hulk / Wolverine: Six Hours"
- Wolvie and the Punisher cross paths in Wolverine #186

Call me a traditionalist, but that's how and where and when I'd try to place PUN6 #33-37.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Punisher Calendar: Wolverine check
Posted by Kevin on January 09, 2004 at 12:17:05:
In Reply to: Re: Punisher Calendar: Wolverine check 
posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2004 at 10:53:39:

> > How about re-thinking the calendar placement of W2 177-186? Can we push this whole span of issues back, say, to July and August -- around the time Logan is popping in and out of New Orleans dealing with Storm's rehabilitation?

> Well, I originally HAD W2 #177-180 shortly after Storm's rehab begins in XXX #1 -- of course, I also had Punisher v6 *16-17* there too...

> I find it hard to believe that it's necessary to place this Punisher arc so very far back ... I mean, it was published just this past month. The Hulk title is currently on #64 -- and you're placing this before #34?! It just doesn't feel right to me.

> Is this Wolvie/Hulk meet-up going to end up falling *before* the Wolvie/Hulk meet-up in "Six Hours", which was published almost a year ago?

> Why?

> To me, this series should occur after:

> - Spidey and Wolvie cross paths in "Spider-Man / Wolverine"
> - Wolvie and Hulk cross paths in "Hulk / Wolverine: Six Hours"
> - Wolvie and the Punisher cross paths in Wolverine #186

> Call me a traditionalist, but that's how and where and when I'd try to place PUN6 #33-37.

> -Jeph!


He's got a point about publication dates. All those stories Jeph mentions have already been published, and it's nice when publication dates are taken into account on order of appearance on a calender.

Of course, Paul and I were thinking of moving the "Six Hours" miniseries into the summer of next year, to accomodate the "Summer Camp" references, along with the numerous green trees....and that's probably WAY after PUN6 concludes, along with Punisher's appearance in Wolverine 186. The only alternative for "Six Hours" I think, is to make it a Spring Break Camp in March...

I was willing to find a way to write off Stupid Hulk's appearance after Hulk #34: the "drug's messed up Banner's head" theory worked for me. But the writing of that one scene still where Punisher calls up Matt Murdock at his office is still the sticky part. It truly does seem in that scene that Murdock was still denying that he's Daredevil...and yet, there he is with his mask off in public at the end of DD#50...

The only way I see us pushing this PUN 33-37 on down the calender later, is if in this upcoming storyline in DD#56, Matt Murdock still officially denies he's DD, yet the whole underworld know's he's DD. After all, DD has declared himself the New Kingpin, and no one's going to mess with the Kingpin, (ala Matt Murdock). So maybe everyone knows, but out of fear/respect for Murdock, they don't say it out loud...yet hear Punisher is brazenly calling Matt up at his office, calling him out, saying, "Let's end this rivalry between us"...

Again, I'll gladly give you a heads up on what's going on in DD after issue 56 comes out in a week or two. ;-)

But on the other hand, in defense of where Paul B. had PUN #33-37, I've got Wolverine #186...and yes, while the prologue page lists Punisher and Wolverine's last appearance together as being "when the mutant was crushed beneath a Punisher-driven steamroller" that's just the editor's explaining "what's come before now"...

Whereas when the story starts up on the next page, Wolverine's words to Punisher's are: "Didn't much appreciate that steam roller, neither..." But couldn't Logan possibly have just left off the details of their latest fight in PUN 33-37? Maybe he just left off that part where PUN blew Logan's torso off with a bazooka? I mean, Logan's feelings regarding the steam roller incident sum up how they feel about one another, without going into details about PUN 33-37...so though unspoken, I think it could be rationalized that PUN 33-37 happen before W186 as well...

That's all I got to say on the subject. ;-)

			*	*	*

The Publication Order Debate
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 09, 2004 at 22:20:10:
In Reply to: Re: Punisher Calendar: Wolverine check 
posted by Kevin on January 09, 2004 at 12:17:05:

> > > How about re-thinking the calendar placement of W2 177-186? Can we push this whole span of issues back, say, to July and August -- around the time Logan is popping in and out of New Orleans dealing with Storm's rehabilitation?

> > Well, I originally HAD W2 #177-180 shortly after Storm's rehab begins in XXX #1 -- of course, I also had Punisher v6 *16-17* there too...

> > I find it hard to believe that it's necessary to place this Punisher arc so very far back ... I mean, it was published just this past month. The Hulk title is currently on #64 -- and you're placing this before #34?! It just doesn't feel right to me.

> > Is this Wolvie/Hulk meet-up going to end up falling *before* the Wolvie/Hulk meet-up in "Six Hours", which was published almost a year ago?

> > Why?

> > To me, this series should occur after:

> > - Spidey and Wolvie cross paths in "Spider-Man / Wolverine"
> > - Wolvie and Hulk cross paths in "Hulk / Wolverine: Six Hours"
> > - Wolvie and the Punisher cross paths in Wolverine #186

> > Call me a traditionalist, but that's how and where and when I'd try to place PUN6 #33-37.

> > -Jeph!


"You're a traditionalist." ;-) And that's where we differ. I much prefer the stories and their references, within the context of the *Marvel Universe*, to give us clues about placement, rather than to adhere to publication dates, which are a temporal frame of reference from our standpoint in the *real world*, not necessarily from the standpoint of characters in the MU.

We all know that time in different series progresses at different rates, so we automatically deal with different chronological and publication sequences. Furthermore, miniseries have a tendency to fall somewhat outside "current" (from our standpoint of publication dates) chronology. Some turn out to be "flashbacks" from our standpoint and I believe others turn out to be "flashforwards."

You may be giving Marvel's creative talents too much credit for writing stories in different series and miniseries in a chronological sequence, or perhaps Marvel itself for publishing these stories in the "right" order. (Remember, we've been declaring some recently published stories as continuity implants set a while ago in time, even when there's no overt statement that they're "tales of the past." We base those conclusions on references within the stories themselves, not on the fact that the books just hit the comic racks.)

I'd much rather shuffle miniseries for the sake of better continuity than to think up weaker rationalizations for why characters act or say what they do for the sake of preserving publication order between series (an integrity that doesn't necessarily exist).

I know we've been down this philosophical road before, but just permit me to posit a couple of chronologies here in the interest of seeing if they make sense from the standpoint of the characters (not necessarily from the standpoint of the sequence in which we read the comics)...

Wolverine:
June 29-30 -- UX 399-400
July 1 -- W2 177-178
July 2-4 -- W2 179-180
July 5 -- UX '01
July 6-7 -- XU 50
July 8 -- UX 401
July 9 -- DP3 69 (not sure; I have to find the notes from the previous post on this issue)
July 11 -- END
July 12-13 -- W2 181-182
July 14-15 -- UX 408
July 19 -- UX 409 (1-11) (w/X-Men since UX 408)
July 20-24 -- W2 183-185 (week after W2 181-182)
July 30 -- W2 186
July 31 -- UX 409 (14-24)
Aug 3-4 -- XX 19 (Logan tends to Storm)

Punisher:
June 26-July 1 -- PUN6 21
July 2-5 -- PUN6 22
July 10 -- PUN6 23 (1-7)
July 11 -- END
July 11-15 -- PUN6 23 (8-22)
July 16 -- PUN6 24-26
July 20/21 -- W2 183 (where in this issue is Frank?)
July 22-28 -- PUN6 27
July 30 -- W2 186

Elektra:
June 29-July 8 -- ELEK 8 (8-21)
July 8 -- ELEK 9
July 14 -- ELEK 10
July 15 -- DD2 36-37
July 20 -- ELEK 11-FB (3-4)
July 22-28 -- PUN6 27
July 29 -- ELEK 11-FB (5-6)
Aug 3 -- ELEK 11-FB (7-10)


Then later, we come across DD's and Logan's chronologies sequenced like so:

Sept. 4-5 -- DD2 46 (1-15)
Sept. 6-7-- PUN6 33 through PUN3 36 (page 13)
Sept. 15 -- PUN6 36 (page 14) through PUN3 37 (page 17)
Sept. 16 -- Wolverine: Netsuke
Sept. 18 -- XU 39/2
Sept. 20 -- DD2 46 (16-21)

BTW, H3 33 is back on April 2 and H3 34 begins on November 21. Still working on Spidey, and still willing to rework things if there are glaring oversights, like the ones you guys have pointed out to me in the past.

You might think it appears that I took a bunch a stories published at different times, threw them into the air, and cut and paste them back together randomly. But the discussions, drafts, and re-drafts suggest some degree of critical analysis. So if my calendar placements look "messy" at times, I like to think that they mirror the real world, in which events don't necessarily unfold neatly.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: The Publication Order Debate
Posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2004 at 23:40:26:
In Reply to: The Publication Order Debate 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 09, 2004 at 22:20:10:

> "You're a traditionalist."

Yay! Now call me a cab.

I guess I'm used to relying on publication order because I started paying real attention to continuity during the X-Men books just after the AoA event. As David Hall's recent posts have been covering, it seems like they were locked in step with one another: one week's Uncanny would directly reference the previous week's X-Force, that X-Force issue would reference the Cable issue from that month -- in X-Men, Wolvie would drop a hint about the upcoming week's issue of Wolverine ... it must have been an editor's nightmare. But in most cases in that era, the publication order WAS the proper order.

I'm likely giving the current Marvel regime too much credit -- but I like to think that, if and when possible, this is STILL the way the Marvel Universe unfolds -- *generally* all at the same time.

I can't comment on your Wolvie sequence right now, as I haven't got a lot of time on my hands. (Yeah, that's why the last five posts belong to me -- because I'm pressed for time. Sigh.) But I'll try, soon.

> Punisher:
> July 20/21 -- W2 183 (where in this issue is Frank?)

He's in the opening sequence, page 5. Basically he stands around, the leaves.

Going by *publication order*, the Punisher and Wolverine appeared in:

- PUN6 #16-17
- W2 #183
- W2 #186
- PUN6 #33-37

I'd *personally* like to see things fall that way.


> You might think it appears that I took a bunch a stories published at different times, threw them into the air, and cut and paste them back together randomly.

Yeah -- that's pretty much exactly what it looks like some times. Which is why occasionally I go through this same routine with you, where I balk at things.

I'm currently doing a calendar, though, for the TV shows "Xena" and "Hercules", and I'm learning the pressure of being a slave to references. So I do understand where you're coming from.

But just last night, I had to completely uproot my *starting point* for deriving calendar dates -- an episode occuring on "the Solstice", wherein we see a full moon -- based on a character commenting that it was "spring" five episodes later. I originally had the initial episode occuring on the Summer Solstice, but the spring comment made me realize that it had to be the WINTER Solstice. And in pushing it back, I had to completely change what YEAR I thought it was -- finding a year where there was a full moon on Dec. 21st, rather than June 21st. Which in turn changed the calendar date for EVERY other episode with a full moon in it...

I'm rambling (and venting) here, but my point is: I could have simply said that the "spring" episode occured nine months later, keeping my current calendar intact -- but I took the harder path; ripping all my assumptions out and putting the puzzle back together from scratch.

It turned out that in doing so, I derived a year that was MUCH more in-keeping with other year references from other episodes. I was prepared to let the year references slide, but by starting completely over, I found a new solution that accidentally managed to incorporate them!

I'm not privy to your thought processes, Paul, so I have to ask -- respectfully, of course -- how often does a problem cause you to rip away all your assumptions and rebuild, rather than to wedge the problem issues somewhere in the past or future where they fit "pretty well"?

Okay -- internet time's up. Gotta run to bed ... have a good weekend, everyone!

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: The Publication Order Debate
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 10, 2004 at 13:41:45:
In Reply to: Re: The Publication Order Debate 
posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2004 at 23:40:26:

> > "You're a traditionalist."

> Yay! Now call me a cab.

Actually, you might say *I'm* the traditionalist, as I'm trying to follow the philosophies and methodologies of George Olshevsky, the guy who began all this chronology stuff. Olshevsky threw publication order out the window when he had to for the sake of proper sequencing of events, character crossovers, and even temporal references. And the MCP reflects not only his work, but also has a number of other instances in which following a character's chronology requires that we jump back and forth between comics published several months or more apart.


> I guess I'm used to relying on publication order because I started paying real attention to continuity during the X-Men books just after the AoA event. As David Hall's recent posts have been covering, it seems like they were locked in step with one another: one week's Uncanny would directly reference the previous week's X-Force, that X-Force issue would reference the Cable issue from that month -- in X-Men, Wolvie would drop a hint about the upcoming week's issue of Wolverine ... it must have been an editor's nightmare. But in most cases in that era, the publication order WAS the proper order.

Yes, that's true. Sometimes editors adopt tight continuity between titles month by month... 


> I'm likely giving the current Marvel regime too much credit -- but I like to think that, if and when possible, this is STILL the way the Marvel Universe unfolds -- *generally* all at the same time.

...but other times things are very loose. As I noted, we shouldn't try to enforce an integrity that was never there to begin with if doing so compromises the logical flow of events, appearances, and references in the MU.


> I can't comment on your Wolvie sequence right now, as I haven't got a lot of time on my hands. (Yeah, that's why the last five posts belong to me -- because I'm pressed for time. Sigh.) But I'll try, soon.

Thanks!

> > Punisher:
> > July 20/21 -- W2 183 (where in this issue is Frank?)

> He's in the opening sequence, page 5. Basically he stands around, the leaves.

Okay, thanks. That would mean that July 20 is the proposed date for Frank's appearance here.


> Going by *publication order*, the Punisher and Wolverine appeared in:

> - PUN6 #16-17
> - W2 #183
> - W2 #186
> - PUN6 #33-37

Yup, and that's how I've arranged it. BUT, because PUN6 37 must occur before DD2 50, it's forced us to take all of the above and place them back in time, so that Hulk's appearance in PUN6 33-37 occurs a while back in his chronology, even though PUN6 37 just came out. This isn't really a problem for Hulk -- au contraire, it actually works quite well, given his history, and his current issues are progressing slowly, so everything eventually balances out. Likewise, having DD2 50 so far back helps to accommodate the year gap that folks have mentioned, and that way post-gap issues of DD2 50 don't have to occur so long after contemporaneous issues of other titles.

In the end, it all works out. Time in some titles progress steadily, in others it drags, and in still others it leaps. Inevitably, gaps end up appearing in the slow-moving titles, and time slows down in those "leaping" titles. But this means that if you pick a day or week on the calendar, you're likely to find issues published over a span of time.

> I'd *personally* like to see things fall that way.

I also like to have nice, neat, lock-step time passage across books, and sometimes we do have the latitude to plot things out that way. But unless editors intentionally build tight continuity into their stories, that nice, neat world often gets tossed out the window.

> 
> > You might think it appears that I took a bunch a stories published at different times, threw them into the air, and cut and paste them back together randomly.

> Yeah -- that's pretty much exactly what it looks like some times. Which is why occasionally I go through this same routine with you, where I balk at things.

> I'm not privy to your thought processes, Paul, so I have to ask -- respectfully, of course -- how often does a problem cause you to rip away all your assumptions and rebuild, rather than to wedge the problem issues somewhere in the past or future where they fit "pretty well"?

More often than you might think. The number of times I've had to shuffle, adjust, readjust, and reinterpret are too numerous to count, and sometimes those changes play themselves out in this very forum -- remember that whole Kang War thing? I wouldn't necessarily use the term "wedging," as that implies force-fitting -- jamming comics in where no one ever intended them to go. To me, chronological analysis and calendar placement is like history -- what happened happened, and we have to piece together as many clues as we can to discover how events really unfolded. While it does involve interpretation and some filling in of gaps, I wouldn't want to think we're *creating* history with our work, just *discovering* it. (Does that make sense?)

Anyway, ask Antonio about my willingness to up-end things and recalculate. I ended up making a mess of Spidey's chronology that way, and we're still rebuilding from that experiment. Turns out I was closer to the mark the first time around, but I think we did learn a few things by turning the calendar on its head.

As for the method behind the madness...
I start out by trying to plot out the big picture, tackling the basic assumptions thoroughly at the outset -- just how much time is passing in a large range of comics, what are the temporal touchstones that shouldn't be compromised if at all possible, how do character chronologies flow within these parameters, is there enough time for certain sequences of events to occur, etc., etc. Then I develop a basic skeleton of a calendar. I'm working on one now for the two MU years preceding the current calendar, and I've sent you an X-related subset of that skeleton calendar for comment. Making sure the general span of time is properly situated on a calendar should be a priority. If that's done thoughtfully, the subsequent adjustments shouldn't end up being drastic, but they outdoubtedly *will* happen -- and there will be *many* of them.

A few things may not end up working so well, though, and that's inevitable. You just try to minimize these and take your best shot at explaining them. As long as the basic calendar framework *does* work for most of the MU plots and characters we examine, ugly as it may look, I've learned (painfully) it's usually best not to start completely over. BUT if there are too many signals that a calendar's framework is just not working, it's back to the drawing board.

You know, after reading through a number of the more philosophical discussions and debates about the theories and methodologies of chronological analysis that we've posted on this forum over the past few years, I start thinking we ought to write a book. Probably a cure for insomnia for most folks, though... ;)

--Paul

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Re: The Publication Order Debate
Posted by Jeph! on January 13, 2004 at 14:52:49:
In Reply to: Re: The Publication Order Debate 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 10, 2004 at 13:41:45:

Sorry for the delay in replying  I've had an old friend over for a few days, and haven't had much internet time :-) 

> Olshevsky threw publication order out the window when he had to for the sake of proper sequencing of events, character crossovers, and even temporal references.

See, I'm fine with discarding publication order for the first two  but not necessarily the third. I mean, look at the "Hulk / Wolverine: Six Hours" series. Yes, the boy claims he's off to "summer camp", but there are icicles on Wolverine's cabin and the sun is setting at 6pm. If the book itself can't make it clear "when" it's taking place, why should I bother using the information it presents for placement? Especially when using some or all of its confusing information causes it to be placed uncomfortably out-of-sequence with other Hulk/Wolverine meet-ups?

I'd rather use its publication order, or clues as to where it fits with the Hulk's travels, to place it  rather than the single line about summer camp.

> because PUN6 37 must occur before DD2 50

Has that been confirmed yet, though? I mean  in DD2 #50, his identity was revealed to the Underworld. Not to the public at large. DD2 #56 hasn't come out yet, so we don't know if DD is fully outed, or has just become a larger version of the urban legend he was before. For all we know, during the year that separates DD2 #50-56, Murdock could *still* be denying that he's Daredevil to the general public, still suing anyone who implies the connection, while holding the underworld in a grip of terror.

> I wouldn't want to think we're *creating* history with our work, just *discovering* it. (Does that make sense?)

It does, and I agree  however, sometimes I feel like we CAN "create" order  especially in the current Marvel world, where cross-references are few and far between. However, it seems like we have different versions of what an "correct" history should look like.

For example, I hate breaking up story arcs if I can avoid it. If, for example, Wolverine appears in UX #409  which spans two weeks  I'm going to try very hard to keep any of his other appearances from occuring *during* UX #409. I'd like someone who sits down to read all of Wolvie's appearances in order to not have to put down UX #409 halfway through, read some issues of W2, then go back to UX #409  unless it's absolutely completely mandated by in-book references.

In that way, I try to create attractive and simple chronologies for characters  and if I have to ignore a full moon to do so, I'm perfectly willing to.

(Strangely enough, though, I *refuse* to discard moons and the like for my Xena/Herc calendar  and I have no idea why I have this double standard. Possibly because there's so much LESS material to weave together  only two shows  and possibly because it's a different medium, where I can't pass off a full moon as "artist error".)

More later, I hope. This is a frustrating, yet interesting topic  I only hope that one day, we'll actually be able to settle on something and present finished character chronologies to Russ. That's why we're here, right?

-Jeph! 

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Re: The Publication Order Debate
Posted by Administrator on January 13, 2004 at 16:58:16:
In Reply to: Re: The Publication Order Debate 
posted by Jeph! on January 13, 2004 at 14:52:49:

> More later, I hope. This is a frustrating, yet interesting topic  I only hope that one day, we'll actually be able to settle on something and present finished character chronologies to Russ. That's why we're here, right?

As I've made clear from the beginning, though, I won't feel the need to change my research, where the sole reasoning is temporal notes. Placing these things on a calendar can be fascinating and fun, but I'm much quicker than some others to ignore topical references.

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Re: The Publication Order Debate
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 13, 2004 at 21:07:15:
In Reply to: Re: The Publication Order Debate 
posted by Administrator on January 13, 2004 at 16:58:16:

> > More later, I hope. This is a frustrating, yet interesting topic  I only hope that one day, we'll actually be able to settle on something and present finished character chronologies to Russ. That's why we're here, right?

> As I've made clear from the beginning, though, I won't feel the need to change my research, where the sole reasoning is temporal notes. Placing these things on a calendar can be fascinating and fun, but I'm much quicker than some others to ignore topical references.


For the sake of...?

...keeping a reading order simple? My point is that character chronologies, if they truly mirror real life, are bound to be messy affairs, not neat. How many concurrent plotlines do any of us have going in our lives at any given time? How many interruptions does life throw at us when all we want to do is bring one thread to resolution?

...minimizing continuity errors in character chronologies? Yes, I'll buy that reason totally, and that's why we inevitably must disregard some temporal references. However, I don't see that the order I've proposed actually messes up a character's chronology, *from the standpoint of that character's history.* What it does do is acknowledge that we, the readers, don't necessatly learn of events in characters' lives in chronological order, with publication dates being nicely sequenced for our convenience.

As I've noted, all other things being equal, I'd rather have a temporal reference be accurate because it's an in-continuity MU reference, and let slide the relative publication dates of different series, which are "real world" frames of reference.

If Six Hours ends up not making any sense where I've placed it in terms of the flow of MU continuity, I'll rearrange it. That may still be true, pending what is reported to happen in recent Hulk issues, which is currently positioned before Six Hours. But publication order alone won't sway me.

Again, I know the MCP is based on what Olshevsky started, and not only did Olshevsky pay a lot of attention to temporal references, he wasn't afraid of putting things out of publication order to accommodate some of those references; heck, he even did so within a single series. I'm just trying to keep that perspective and approach in play as we determine the order in which character appearances occur.

--Paul B.

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Re: The Publication Order Debate
Posted by Administrator on January 13, 2004 at 23:32:59:
In Reply to: Re: The Publication Order Debate 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 13, 2004 at 21:07:15:

> ...minimizing continuity errors in character chronologies? Yes, I'll buy that reason totally, and that's why we inevitably must disregard some temporal references. However, I don't see that the order I've proposed actually messes up a character's chronology, *from the standpoint of that character's history.* What it does do is acknowledge that we, the readers, don't necessatly learn of events in characters' lives in chronological order, with publication dates being nicely sequenced for our convenience.

> As I've noted, all other things being equal, I'd rather have a temporal reference be accurate because it's an in-continuity MU reference, and let slide the relative publication dates of different series, which are "real world" frames of reference.

And I usually have a different preference. While it's true that a calendar attempts to place its stories in an order that's not disruptive to the characters' chronologies, any number of reading orders can make the same claim. When we find ourselves placing one story published in say, March 2002 *after* a story published in November 2003, *solely* because of dates on newspapers, or anniversaries, or school vacations, these orderings *only* make sense to someone _in possession of the calendar_. Everyone without the calendar is left to go, "Hunh? That's stupid!"

> Again, I know the MCP is based on what Olshevsky started, and not only did Olshevsky pay a lot of attention to temporal references, he wasn't afraid of putting things out of publication order to accommodate some of those references; heck, he even did so within a single series. I'm just trying to keep that perspective and approach in play as we determine the order in which character appearances occur.

We've gone round and round on this one. You contend it was "Olshevsky"; I contend it was just as much "Marvel". Again, when story elements *require* that a story take place out of published order (as with ASM2 36), the MCP reflects that. When the reshuffling is based solely on temporal references, I'm going to want someone from Marvel to support the reshuffling.

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Re: The Publication Order Debate
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 14, 2004 at 07:25:14:
In Reply to: Re: The Publication Order Debate 
posted by Administrator on January 13, 2004 at 23:32:59:

> We've gone round and round on this one. You contend it was "Olshevsky"; I contend it was just as much "Marvel". Again, when story elements *require* that a story take place out of published order (as with ASM2 36), the MCP reflects that. When the reshuffling is based solely on temporal references, I'm going to want someone from Marvel to support the reshuffling.

Then I guess there's only so much this calendar thing can do for the MCP...

			*	*	*

Re: The Publication Order Debate
Posted by Administrator on January 14, 2004 at 13:46:29:
In Reply to: Re: The Publication Order Debate 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 14, 2004 at 07:25:14:

> > We've gone round and round on this one. You contend it was "Olshevsky"; I contend it was just as much "Marvel". Again, when story elements *require* that a story take place out of published order (as with ASM2 36), the MCP reflects that. When the reshuffling is based solely on temporal references, I'm going to want someone from Marvel to support the reshuffling.

> Then I guess there's only so much this calendar thing can do for the MCP...

It's of tremendous value.

But, at least when we're talking about moving books drastically out of their published order, it's only one voice, not the final word.

That's all I'm saying.

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Re: The Publication Order Debate
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 15, 2004 at 08:38:30:
In Reply to: Re: The Publication Order Debate 
posted by Administrator on January 14, 2004 at 13:46:29:


> But, at least when we're talking about moving books drastically out of their published order, it's only one voice, not the final word.

> That's all I'm saying.

I think it all depends on what you're trying to achieve. It seems to me that since the chronological references in Marvel books can't all be literally true - if only because of the time compression factor - then a considerable degree of licence is built into the whole set-up.

Personally, I see chronology as an attempt to identify a maximally satisfying and consistent reading order for scenes and stories. Given the artificiality of the entire concept of Marvel time, I'm also wary about yanking stories massively out of sequence *solely* in order to achieve literal compliance with dates that have no actual plot significance. 

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The Publication Order Debate -- Cap as an example
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 15, 2004 at 21:41:15:
In Reply to: Re: The Publication Order Debate 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 15, 2004 at 08:38:30:

> Personally, I see chronology as an attempt to identify a maximally satisfying and consistent reading order for scenes and stories. Given the artificiality of the entire concept of Marvel time, I'm also wary about yanking stories massively out of sequence *solely* in order to achieve literal compliance with dates that have no actual plot significance.


Let me try to clarify where you guys are on this. Let's take Cap as an example.

MY THEORY: Captain America v4 #22 (publication date: March 2004) occurs around the time of Iron Man v3 #62 (publication date: February 2003)!!!

YOUR REACTION: What the--? That's more than a year difference in publication dates. You're daft, man.

MY FIRST DEFENSE:
IM3 62-63 have plenty of references to Christmas (as posted before). The narration in CA4 22 states that it occurs in "December" and Rebecca wishes Steve a "Feliz Navidad." There really aren't any character or plot references to suggest that CA4 22 MUST occur after IM3 62-63. It's just publication order that would support that contention.

YOUR REACTION: Exactly. And that publication order defense is good enough. If a whole year doesn't pass in the MU between the Iron Man and Cap stories (because of the compression you mention), then the references in CA4 22 must be interpreted as topical; no big deal -- our perception of the sequence events unfolding in the MU (publication order) trumps temporal references in the MU. You need Marvel's permission to suggest that Cap would appear in CA4 22 before he appears in, say, IM3 64 and A3 63, as publication order is way off here.

MY SECOND DEFENSE:
In CA4 22, Cap takes a phone call from Rebecca. He pretends its a call for the Avengers to fool a general he's having an argument with. Cap suggests that Thor should go on the Avengers mission instead of him. BUT, Thor left the Avengers in a very public confrontation in A3 63 (publication date: April 2003). If CA4 22 occurs after A3 63, then Cap's whole ruse would have had no credibility -- everyone knows Thor is no longer an Avenger because of bad juju between the thunder god and Cap and Iron Man. So, Cap's little phone ruse only makes sense by placing CA4 22 BEFORE A3 63, even though the Cap issue is published a year later. And, happily, that can place CA4 22 during that same Christmas season seen in IM3 62-63. My defense rests not solely on temporal references, but on a PLOT reference as well. My original inclination to muck up publication order stands.

YOUR REACTION: Dude, now that you brought up the plot consideration, let's go with it. No need to contact Marvel for permission.

Am I close?

--Paul

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Re: The Publication Order Debate 
Posted by Administrator on January 15, 2004 at 22:01:26:
In Reply to: The Publication Order Debate -- Cap as an example 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 15, 2004 at 21:41:15:

> 
> Let me try to clarify where you guys are on this. Let's take Cap as an example.

> MY THEORY: Captain America v4 #22 (publication date: March 2004) occurs around the time of Iron Man v3 #62 (publication date: February 2003)!!!

> YOUR REACTION: What the--? That's more than a year difference in publication dates. You're daft, man.

Not my reaction, but the reaction of visitors to our site in 2005, who don't have the benefit of your calendar.

> MY FIRST DEFENSE:
> IM3 62-63 have plenty of references to Christmas (as posted before). The narration in CA4 22 states that it occurs in "December" and Rebecca wishes Steve a "Feliz Navidad." There really aren't any character or plot references to suggest that CA4 22 MUST occur after IM3 62-63. It's just publication order that would support that contention.

> YOUR REACTION: Exactly. And that publication order defense is good enough. If a whole year doesn't pass in the MU between the Iron Man and Cap stories (because of the compression you mention), then the references in CA4 22 must be interpreted as topical; no big deal -- our perception of the sequence events unfolding in the MU (publication order) trumps temporal references in the MU. You need Marvel's permission to suggest that Cap would appear in CA4 22 before he appears in, say, IM3 64 and A3 63, as publication order is way off here.

No. My insistence on Marvel's approval stems from your stand that we're only doing what George Olshevsky did, when he rearranged issue order (the best example being Marvel Team-Up). There's nothing unusual about placing one title a year or more ahead of issues of another title published at the same time, the best example here being Thor. Many's the time when Thor would spend two or more years in unbroken Asgardian stories, while at the same time guest starring in other titles. Plot necessitates moving the story out of publication order, in relation to other titles.

> MY SECOND DEFENSE:
> In CA4 22, Cap takes a phone call from Rebecca. He pretends its a call for the Avengers to fool a general he's having an argument with. Cap suggests that Thor should go on the Avengers mission instead of him. BUT, Thor left the Avengers in a very public confrontation in A3 63 (publication date: April 2003). If CA4 22 occurs after A3 63, then Cap's whole ruse would have had no credibility -- everyone knows Thor is no longer an Avenger because of bad juju between the thunder god and Cap and Iron Man. So, Cap's little phone ruse only makes sense by placing CA4 22 BEFORE A3 63, even though the Cap issue is published a year later. And, happily, that can place CA4 22 during that same Christmas season seen in IM3 62-63. My defense rests not solely on temporal references, but on a PLOT reference as well. My original inclination to muck up publication order stands.

> YOUR REACTION: Dude, now that you brought up the plot consideration, let's go with it. No need to contact Marvel for permission.

> Am I close?

Yes, I think so. You need to show not just that your placement works, but why it *doesn't* work to place it closer in publication order.

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Re: The Publication Order Debate 
Posted by Jeph! on January 15, 2004 at 22:27:30:
In Reply to: Re: The Publication Order Debate 
posted by Administrator on January 15, 2004 at 22:01:26:

> > YOUR REACTION: Dude, now that you brought up the plot consideration, let's go with it. No need to contact Marvel for permission.

> > Am I close?

> Yes, I think so. You need to show not just that your placement works, but why it *doesn't* work to place it closer in publication order.

Agreed -- it's so much more persuasive to DISprove various other placement options than it is to hammer home the one you've settled on.

However, since you're using this Cap / Iron Man example -- I thought I'd throw a nitpick in there.

Thor appears in ASM2 #57-58, and ASM #500, in his classic outfit -- and we've posited that this occirs AFTER the fairly obviosu Temporal Reset Button that'll be hit at the end of the next Thor arc.

To wit, we seem fairly sure that this Thor appearance occurs AFTER he publicly leaves the Avengers in IM3 #63.

So, isn't there a chance that Cap's mention of Thor in CA4 #22 will fall into the same category? That after time is rebooted in Thor #80 or so, Thor will go back to his old outfit and pick up his affiliation (if not membership) with the Avengers, and THAT'S the time period where CA4 #22 occurs?

If this sequence of events DOES come to pass, then I'd very much favor placing CA4 #22 well after IM3 #63 -- in no small part because of the year-plus publication gap between the two books.

-Jeph! 

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Re: The Publication Order Debate 
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 16, 2004 at 06:59:43:
In Reply to: Re: The Publication Order Debate 
posted by Jeph! on January 15, 2004 at 22:27:30:

> Agreed -- it's so much more persuasive to DISprove various other placement options than it is to hammer home the one you've settled on.

> However, since you're using this Cap / Iron Man example -- I thought I'd throw a nitpick in there.

> Thor appears in ASM2 #57-58, and ASM #500, in his classic outfit -- and we've posited that this occirs AFTER the fairly obviosu Temporal Reset Button that'll be hit at the end of the next Thor arc.

> To wit, we seem fairly sure that this Thor appearance occurs AFTER he publicly leaves the Avengers in IM3 #63.

> So, isn't there a chance that Cap's mention of Thor in CA4 #22 will fall into the same category? That after time is rebooted in Thor #80 or so, Thor will go back to his old outfit and pick up his affiliation (if not membership) with the Avengers, and THAT'S the time period where CA4 #22 occurs?

Could be. That darn pesky Thor story sure is holding up the works.

> If this sequence of events DOES come to pass, then I'd very much favor placing CA4 #22 well after IM3 #63 -- in no small part because of the year-plus publication gap between the two books.

And that's where we'll disagree. The date in the narration, the snow, and the "Feliz Navidad" (in-story references) trump the date in the indicia (a non-MU reference), in my book. So it looks like you'll need to pick out the things you don't like on the calendar to come up with the canon MCP chronology.

Of course there may be other character or plot references that will support the post-reboot placement of CA4 21-22, etc.

The only other consideration that may be a factor is Cap's costume and the way it's portrayed in CA4. It seems a little different than in his other appearances, but I've chalked that up to artistic license.

--Paul B.

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Re: The Publication Order Debate 
Posted by Russ Chappell on January 16, 2004 at 17:06:23:
In Reply to: Re: The Publication Order Debate 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 16, 2004 at 06:59:43:

> > If this sequence of events DOES come to pass, then I'd very much favor placing CA4 #22 well after IM3 #63 -- in no small part because of the year-plus publication gap between the two books.

> And that's where we'll disagree. The date in the narration, the snow, and the "Feliz Navidad" (in-story references) trump the date in the indicia (a non-MU reference), in my book. So it looks like you'll need to pick out the things you don't like on the calendar to come up with the canon MCP chronology.

But there's a danger in taking those in-story references and connecting them to other stories published more than a year apart. One of the inherent problems with a literal calendar is that we're forced to say "This temporal reference is literal, while that one's topical," and by nature, these distinctions seem, well, arbitrary. We can see this in the discussions among proponents, disagreements over which are the "real" dates, and what has to be fudged, and I don't see how to determine that anyone's "righter" than anyone else.

By its very nature, we're forced to say that many of the calendar references don't work, and must therefore be ignored. I'm scared that it'll break down under its own weight.

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Re: The Publication Order Debate 
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 16, 2004 at 19:42:26:
In Reply to: Re: The Publication Order Debate 
posted by Russ Chappell on January 16, 2004 at 17:06:23:

> But there's a danger in taking those in-story references and connecting them to other stories published more than a year apart. 

I'm sorry. I'm just not seeing the "danger." Please remember that I'm trying to be careful to see the ramifications of placing stories close together that were published far apart. In some cases, it just doesn't work. But in other cases, there IS enough latitude to allow this. I just don't consider publication dates a sacred cow; they're a clue to chronological placement that can be useful sometimes and at other times not.

> One of the inherent problems with a literal calendar is that we're forced to say "This temporal reference is literal, while that one's topical," and by nature, these distinctions seem, well, arbitrary. 

The distinctions are not arbitrarily determined (e.g. "I like that temporal reference." "No, that one's just not suiting me today."). I hope I'm a better chronologist than that. But others are sure to disagree...

> We can see this in the discussions among proponents, disagreements over which are the "real" dates, and what has to be fudged, and I don't see how to determine that anyone's "righter" than anyone else.

We're all relying on a preponderance of a variety of evidence when we determine chronological placement -- the flow of plotlines, character developments, etc., etc. (which I've written about before) -- these are things that help determine "righter." Publication dates, while a factor, just aren't up as high on my admissable evidence roster as it is on yours (they're there, though).


> By its very nature, we're forced to say that many of the calendar references don't work, and must therefore be ignored. I'm scared that it'll break down under its own weight.

I hope you're not saying that because many calendar references don't end up working, NO calendar references could ever really work, and thus there's no point in trying.

If so, then I re-state that the calendar concept can only go so far in helping the MCP.

BTW, I can easily turn the argument around...
Writers of concurrently running stories frequently place their tales in different points in time in the present and recent past and don't necessarily imagine their stories occuring after another story in another title that happened to come out first. Then the pacing of the passage of time in those stories sometimes compounds the time differences; we've seen it happen intentionally on the part of the creators, and we've concluded it's happened based on character and plot references. So I could say, "Because of the very nature of publishing comics, we're forced to say that publication order often doesn't work in sequencing comics; therefore we just can't pay attention to publication dates." Of course that's not what I'm saying at all.

BOTH publication dates and temporal references need to be taken into account; one class of evidence cannot be *automatically* dismissed as irrelevant, as you appear to suggest. All I've been saying (probably inarticulately) all along is that *all other things being equal*, in-story temporal references (because they're IN-STORY) should trump publication order *between different titles* (because they're NOT in-story). And if temporal references don't work for character-driven or plot-driven reasons, or if temporal references aren't clear and specific, then publication order can determine placement (if that publication order doesn't mess up character and plot chronology).

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. So please take what I have to offer with a huge grain of salt. Unfortunately, the calendar won't be peppered with publication dates, so you'll have to hunt to pick out the offending placements and put them in the correct spots on the MCP. :-)

(And I'm the first to admit some of my placements may yet be proven wrong if strong plot and character references make the temporal references I've used hard to support.)

--Paul

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Re: The Publication Order Debate 
Posted by Administrator on January 16, 2004 at 21:26:50:
In Reply to: Re: The Publication Order Debate 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 16, 2004 at 19:42:26:

> > By its very nature, we're forced to say that many of the calendar references don't work, and must therefore be ignored. I'm scared that it'll break down under its own weight.

> I hope you're not saying that because many calendar references don't end up working, NO calendar references could ever really work, and thus there's no point in trying.

No. I'm saying that calendar references are a guide, an aide, but not the final word.

> If so, then I re-state that the calendar concept can only go so far in helping the MCP.

As opposed to, um, being of unlimited use? *Any* piece of evidence only goes so far. They're all pieces of the puzzle, and a calendar can be indispensable.

> BOTH publication dates and temporal references need to be taken into account; one class of evidence cannot be *automatically* dismissed as irrelevant, as you appear to suggest.

{Looks over shoulder, then points to self} Are you talking to me? I've never said that.

> We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. So please take what I have to offer with a huge grain of salt. 

Oh, even if I were to ignore it all (and I won't), I think these calendar posts are some of the most articulate that we've had on the board. Far from taking it with a grain of salt; I take them seriously.

> Unfortunately, the calendar won't be peppered with publication dates, so you'll have to hunt to pick out the offending placements and put them in the correct spots on the MCP. :-)

The way it'll probably turn out is, I'll come up with what I think is the proper chronology. If there are some knots that I can't untie, I read the posting board to see if anyone (calendar proponent or otherwise) has already addressed and solved my problem. Once I've arrived at a suitable chronology, I come back to the board and read your calendar posts. If my chronology disagrees with anyone else's, I'll listen to what they have to say, give it due diligence, and if they prove their point to my satisfaction, I'll change my chronology and post it on the MCP. From the beginning, though, I've stated that once I've determined the chronology for the MCP, I have to be convinced before I'll change it (not just "I'm right, you're wrong; change it"). And what I'm saying is that "snow on the ground" and "summer vacations" won't be enough to get me to change it.

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Re: The Publication Order Debate 
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 15, 2004 at 22:31:57:
In Reply to: Re: The Publication Order Debate 
posted by Administrator on January 15, 2004 at 22:01:26:

> No. My insistence on Marvel's approval stems from your stand that we're only doing what George Olshevsky did, when he rearranged issue order (the best example being Marvel Team-Up). There's nothing unusual about placing one title a year or more ahead of issues of another title published at the same time, the best example here being Thor. Many's the time when Thor would spend two or more years in unbroken Asgardian stories, while at the same time guest starring in other titles. Plot necessitates moving the story out of publication order, in relation to other titles.

Well, actually, that's the point I've been trying to make in this particular thread, but with regard to temporal references as well. IIRC, folks were objecting to my suggestion (based on temporal references) that Six Hours may occur after other miniseries (not the same title) involving charcters in Six Hours. The argument was that Six Hours was published before the other miniseries and so should be placed chronologically before those other miniseries.

> > MY SECOND DEFENSE:
> > In CA4 22, Cap takes a phone call from Rebecca. He pretends its a call for the Avengers to fool a general he's having an argument with. Cap suggests that Thor should go on the Avengers mission instead of him. BUT, Thor left the Avengers in a very public confrontation in A3 63 (publication date: April 2003). If CA4 22 occurs after A3 63, then Cap's whole ruse would have had no credibility -- everyone knows Thor is no longer an Avenger because of bad juju between the thunder god and Cap and Iron Man. So, Cap's little phone ruse only makes sense by placing CA4 22 BEFORE A3 63, even though the Cap issue is published a year later. And, happily, that can place CA4 22 during that same Christmas season seen in IM3 62-63. My defense rests not solely on temporal references, but on a PLOT reference as well. My original inclination to muck up publication order stands.

> > YOUR REACTION: Dude, now that you brought up the plot consideration, let's go with it. No need to contact Marvel for permission.

> > Am I close?

> Yes, I think so. You need to show not just that your placement works, but why it *doesn't* work to place it closer in publication order.

In Cap's case, I've used both temporal and plot references to show why it doesn't work to place issues closer in publication order. (And unless I hear convincing counterpoints, I'll go ahead and place CA4 22 around the time of IM3 62 on the calendar.) But in other cases, I use temporal references alone, and as long as character and plot sequences aren't messed up, I don't really see the harm in sacrificing the "integrity" of publication order *between different titles*. Why NOT try to make as many temporal references as we can be accurate? (Kevin and Antonio seem to be in that camp with the July 4 placement of CA4 3.)

Some may say that temporal references have no real value because they inevitably end up being contradictory and some end up being topical. I might argue the same thing about publication order because we all know stories don't necessarily unfold in lock-step with one another to begin with.

Anyway, I'm about ready to close another chapter in philosophical debate to get back to other things. BTW, I am annotating the calendar as much as possible so the arguments for placement are articulated as much as possible. It makes for a lengthy document, though, and I'll chop it up into digestable bits whenever I feel comfortable enough about it to post it. (I'm busy incorporating some recently acquired books and waiting for that Spidey calendar.)

--Paul B.

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One more point on placement of PUN6 37
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 10, 2004 at 14:27:42:
In Reply to: Re: Punisher Calendar: Wolverine check 
posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2004 at 10:53:39:

Jeph, another note to address your discomfort with the publication date issue.

Paul O. notes that a gap exists in PUN6 37 between pages 17 and 18. During that time, Soap moves to L.A. and becomes a major star in the adult film industry. We can easily assign months to this gap, so at least the last five pages of PUN6 37 can occur closer in time to other comics that have just been released. You might say that's another reason for positioning the PUN6 series earlier in the calendar, as I have done. :-)

And we'll see where PUNISHER MAX picks up. It's likely that Punisher's published adventures will have "caught up" to those of other characters.

--Paul B.

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Re: One more point on placement of PUN6 37
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 10, 2004 at 16:30:03:
In Reply to: One more point on placement of PUN6 37 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 10, 2004 at 14:27:42:


> And we'll see where PUNISHER MAX picks up. It's likely that Punisher's published adventures will have "caught up" to those of other characters.


Last I'd heard, the plan was that PUNISHER MAX was going back to the early years and doing stories with Microchip. So it has no bearing on current continuity.

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Re: One more point on placement of PUN6 37
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 10, 2004 at 21:55:06:
In Reply to: Re: One more point on placement of PUN6 37 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 10, 2004 at 16:30:03:

> 
> > And we'll see where PUNISHER MAX picks up. It's likely that Punisher's published adventures will have "caught up" to those of other characters.

> 
> Last I'd heard, the plan was that PUNISHER MAX was going back to the early years and doing stories with Microchip. So it has no bearing on current continuity.

Ah, another continuity implant! Thanks for the info.

--Paul B.

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Re: Punisher Calendar: Spidey check
Posted by Antonio Gavio on January 11, 2004 at 02:11:34:
In Reply to: Punisher Calendar: Spidey check 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 08, 2004 at 20:13:28:

> > Holy Crap, you're right! I'd gotten ahead of myself, and thought this was an appearance of the Hulk AFTER the "Secret Conspiracy" storyline is in full swing, starting after Hulk #34. I was in the next year, when we're still in the year directly AFTER the Sept. 11th attacks...and we'd pretty much HAVE to be in that year, as this storyline more than likely MUST go before DD#50...

> > This actually would work out great, because we can then safely explain the Classic Stupid Hulk persona being on display...as we don't see the newest Hulk, (the silent monster Hulk) for the first time until H #34, we can just say this appearance in Punisher is before Banner mastered his mind, and suppressed all the other Hulk personalities, (like Stupid Hulk).

> Okay, then. To recap, we've confirmed that placement of PUN6 33-37 in September -- between pages 15 and 16 of DD2 46 and between H3 33 and 34 -- makes sense given Daredevil's and Hulk's chronologies. It also makes some sense in relation to a July placement of Elektra in PUN6 27 (between ELEKTRA 10 and 11, as originally proposed -- although other placements can make sense too). Given the nine-day span involved, Wolverine can be placed in PUN6 33-37 between W2 180 (a Canada trip) and Wolverine: Netsuke (a Japan trip).

> The one remaining hitch is Spider-Man. My tentative placements of the events in PUN6 33-37 that involve him are Sept. 7, 8, and 18. Antonio, can these dates be accommodated in your Spidey calendar? And, for those with the Punisher issues, is it okay for Spidey to make other appearances in the ten-day gap between Sept. 8 and 18 -- or are we to believe that DD, Spidey and Logan are hanging out together that whole time?

Your placement of PUN6 33-37 has my blessings on the dates you've given; if Jeph and you agree on a different placement, please let me know. Since I'm at it I'll answer a few things for you. 

Yes, it is okay for Spidey to make other appearances in the ten-day gap between Sept. 8 and 18 -- there's no reason to believe that DD, Spidey and Logan are hanging out together that whole time, in fact Matt Murdock is by himself at his office when the Punisher calls him to tell him he'll be somewhere at four. Matt probably informs the other two after the call.

The flashback in PUN6 37 (showing the Hulk reading the note that the Punisher left him in order to cure his amnesia: "You are the Hulk. You like to smash.") occurs between pages 17 and 18 of PUN6 36. By the way, that note explains the Classic Stupid Hulk persona (and not another one) being on display: The Punisher leads the Hulk to remember that specific persona with the "you like to smash" line, regardless of what persona he was displaying just previously.

Something else, PUN6 33-36p13 might just be one day (early morning) and not two: the Punisher mentions he wasted twenty minutes dealing with DD, Spidey and Wolvie, which caused him to miss the start of the auction at 3am. I'll have that info checked with the Spidey calendar.

Again, let me know if you guys decide some other placement.

Antonio 

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Re: Chronology review: PUNISHER
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 10, 2004 at 14:16:52:
In Reply to: Chronology review: PUNISHER 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 03, 2004 at 05:09:58:

Hi, Paul O.

Below is a question I forgot to ask...

> PUNISHER #36, pages 14 to 22.
> New York, day 9. [In issue #37, on the same day, the Punisher says he fed doctored stew to the Hulk "for the past eight days."] The Punisher challenges the three heroes to meet him at his warehouse hideout in Red Hook at 4pm. (He makes contact by phoning Matt Murdock's office, having read Daredevil's true identity in the papers "a while back".) Spacker Dave is also hanging around the warehouse. As Spider-Man, Daredevil and Wolverine arrive - "bang on time", says the Punisher - he beats up Banner, who turns into the savage Hulk. The Punisher escapes down a manhole, and the Hulk promptly attacks Daredevil, Spider-Man and Wolverine - the only other people in sight. [Issue #37 page 8 panel 4 is a flashback which takes place immediately after the Hulk transforms. It shows the Hulk reading the note that the Punisher left him, in order to cure his amnesia: "You are the Hulk. You like to smash."]

Between what pages/panels of PUN6 36 does that flashback in PUN6 37 occur?

--Paul B.

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Sabretooth: In the Red Zone not in MCP.
Posted by David Hall on January 03, 2004 at 13:47:19:

I have found an important omission from some of the X-characters chronologies.
Sabretooth: In the Red Zone, is listed only under Sabretooth's chronology as SABRE.

It is omitted from:
Caliban (last App. XFOR 48)
Phoenix IV (occurs immediatly after UX 328)
Angel (last app. X&CD 1, Next App. UX 329)

Iceman (last app. X 47)
Cyclops (occurs immediatly after UX 328)
Beast (occurs immediatly after UX 328)
Professor Xavier (occurs immediatly after UX 328)
and Cooper, Dr. Valerie (occurs immediatly after UX 328)

It's also not listed in the Key.
This issue occurs immediatly after UX 328, where Sabretooth escapes the mansion, after tearing up Psylocke.

The original X-Men and Caliban hunt Sabretooth through the streets of Manhattan, and eventually turn him over to Val Cooper.

Dave

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X-Man 5
Posted by David Hall on January 03, 2004 at 14:12:39:

In the MCp listing for XM 5 under Bishop he is listed as being in this issue before UX 322, and x 43-44 as such:

X:PRIME
XM 5
UX 322
X 43
X 44

Under Xavier's listing, we have (what I believe to be correct)

X:Prime
UX 322-BTS
X 42
X 43
X 44
XM 5

Bishop's listing should be corrected to match Xavier's:

X:PRIME
*UX 322
X 43
X 44
* XM 5

David

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X-Man 5-10
Posted by Jeph! on January 03, 2004 at 21:15:12:
In Reply to: X-Man 5 
posted by David Hall on January 03, 2004 at 14:12:39:

There is a school of thought, which I belong to, that says we should try to place X-Man #5-10 before Uncanny X-Men #322.

In X-Man #10, Nate has the fight with Prof. Xavier in which he inadvertantly teaches Onslaught how to physically manifest his psionic armor.

In UX #322, Onslaught slams the Juggernaut across most of a continent. Popular wisdom says that he couldn't have done this without some form of physical ability. And prior to X-man #10, Onslaught was solely a telepathic split personality -- no physical abilities.

So, can X-Man #5-10 be placed before UX #322? In X-Man #11, Nate, wounded and recovering from his battle with Prof. X, meets up with Rogue, who is alone. This makes you think that it would be after X-Men #45, where Rogue splits from Iceman and Gambit and runs off alone -- but it doesn't state things explicitly. Rogue could still be travelling with Iceman, as she is prior to UX #322 -- but Iceman was just somewhere else in that particular moment.

Rogue then sends X-Man off to Muir Island, where he turns up in Excalibur #93 or so. I haven't taken a look at Excalibur #87-93 yet, so I have no idea how feasible it is that they also take place before or closely after UX #322.

It's a subject I'd like to look at in more detail -- but, for now, I'm inclined to change XAVIER'S listing, not Bishop's, and place X-Man #5 before UX #322 in both of their chronologies.

(Also, X-Man #5 shows us Nate recovering from his fall to earth -- a fall we saw in X-Men Prime. I have a hard time believing that Nate was lying unconscious in Switzerland the whole time UX #322 and X #42-43 were occuring...)

-Jeph! 

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Re: X-Man 5-10
Posted by David Hall on January 04, 2004 at 00:13:12:
In Reply to: X-Man 5-10 
posted by Jeph! on January 03, 2004 at 21:15:12:

Some important considerations:

X-Man #6 has to come after Cable #21. Blaquesmith makes reference to the break in that occurs in Cable 21.

Cable 21 occurs before UX 322. (This is backwards in Cables listing, and should be changed) We know this because In Cable 21 he dropped X-Force off at the mansion, while in UX 322, Cable is at the mansion having closed door discussions with Xavier about X-Forces future. 

We also know that UX 322 occurs before XFOR 44, as that is where X-Forces future is decided, and Sam joins the X-Men. (There could of course be several days between these two issues.)

X-Men #42 occurs probably a few hours after UX #322, as Storm receives a call from Warren about the massacre. Enough time has passed for Juggernaut to have been brought into the mansion, and placed in a medical unit.

X-Men #43 follows directly from #42
The first part of X-Men #44 is hours after 43. Jean and Xavier spend two days searching for Scott, before he calls in.


So the preliminary stuff out of the way, I see no reason why X-Man 5 couldnt go before UX 322, but X-Man 6 and 7 both have to be after Cable 21 (They could still go before UX 322 though.)

So far this would create NO problems for any characters, and only necessitate moving X-Man 5 to prior to UX 322  BTS in Xaviers listing.

Now the next part is trickier. Does Blaquesmiths appearance in Cable 23-24 (and bts in 25) occur before or after his apps. In X-man 8-10?

This is the crucial question, as we know that Cable 23-25 occur after UX 322 and xforce 45-47 by the way.)

In X-Man 10 Cable is not at the mansion, but Blaquesmith didnt expect him to be. (Perhaps because he knows that cable is in the future.)
Xavier says that He (X-man) might be the sudden strong psionic presences I sensed a few weeks ago. 

The clincher for me is Page 14 of Cable #23. Cable is talking to Blaquesmith. He has a map. Cable says A Map of Europe. Swiss Alps, Geneva, Paris, who are you tracking Blaquesmith? Blaquesmith changes the subject.

So we know that Blaquesmith was tracking Nate in Cable #23. This should be before X-Man 8-10 or else there would be more dots on Blaquesmiths map.

In X-Men 8 Page 5, we see Blaquesmith again tracking Nate. He map shows a dot somewhere in the Mediterranean, which is where Nate is on his cruise. Blaquesmith leaves to find him at the end of the issue.

In conclusion: Sure we can move X-Man 5-7 to before UX 322, as long as 6 and 7 come after Cable 21. Either way,we must change Cables listing to read:
X:Prime
* C2 21 (moved)
UX 322-BTS

As cable 21 comes before ux 322.

We must change Xaviers listing to:
X-Prime
* XM 5 (moved)
UX 322- BTS
X 42
X 43
X 44
XFOR 44

But we cannot move X Man 8-10, as they have to come post Cable 23-24, and Cable 23-24 have to come after XFor 45-47.

If Ive missed anything please let me know.

David

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Cable 21
Posted by David Hall on January 04, 2004 at 00:40:22:
In Reply to: Re: X-Man 5-10 
posted by David Hall on January 04, 2004 at 00:13:12:

Forgot to post something about cable 21.

In my previous post I outlined why Cable 21 must come before UX 322. Namely that in C2 21 Murderworld has blown up, X-force has to dig out the wreckage, Jean comes to help them, and cable drops them off at the mansion.

In UX 322 X-Force is BTS living at the mansion (Siryn is shown) and Cable is having behind the scenes discussions with Xavier about X-Force's future. These discussions conclude in XFOR 44, with the decision that Xforce will be based at the mansion, and Sam will join the X-Men.

If UX 322 occured before cable 21, there would have been plenty of time for these decisions to have been finalized and announced in Cable 21, rather than XFOR 44.

I mentioned that Cable's chronology needs to be changed to reflect this, I forgot to mention that Phoenix IV's listing also needs to be changed, to move up Cable 21 to before UX 322.

Siryn's listing needs to be changed to 
C2 21 - BTS
UX 322
instead of the other way around. 
Yes I know that Siryn is supposed to be missing, but as she turns up in UX 322, she is no more "missing" in this issue than Sunspot. He might deserve a BTS too for C 21.

I know that some may argue that I'm wrong about c 21 and UX 322, but the sequence of events leading up to X-Force coming to the mansion to stay, seems to make more sense (to me at least)this way.

David

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Please ignore previous post about Cable 21.
Posted by David Hall on January 04, 2004 at 01:32:13:
In Reply to: Cable 21 
posted by David Hall on January 04, 2004 at 00:40:22:

I have (completely) re-read the various issues in question, and I see that the order of X:Prime, Ux 322, and Cable 21 that we already have in the MCP works just fine. I was trying too hard to make Jeph's suggestion of moving up X-Man 5-7 (if not 5-10)easier.

If we leave these alone, then X-Man 6 and 7 still have to come after Cable 21, as in X-Man 6 Blaquesmith references the break in from Cable 21.

We can still move up X-Man 5, and put this betwen X:Prime and UX 322-BTS in Xavier's listing as it seems unlikely that Nate is lying in a crater from X:Prime thorugh X-Men 44.

X-man 8-10 have to occue after Cable 23-24, due to Nate's locations on Blaquemsith's map in Cable 23.

David 

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Re: X-Man #5-10 and UX #322
Posted by Jeph! on January 06, 2004 at 01:25:26:
In Reply to: Re: X-Man 5-10 
posted by David Hall on January 04, 2004 at 00:13:12:

Well, clearly X-Man #5-10 weren't INTENDED to occur before UX #322. At the time UX #322 was written, Scott Lobdell likely had no idea who "Onslaught" would eventually turn out to be -- all he knew was that he was setting him up to be a bad-ass, by doing things like having Onslaught punch the Juggernaut halfway across a country.

Later on, after editorial decided that Onslaught was Prof. X's dark side, it was explained that his purple armor was psionic shields made physical -- a skill Prof. X learned from X-Man in X-Man #10.

However, it was left UNEXPLAINED how Prof. X's dark side -- possessed of merely telepathic skill at that time -- was able to punch Juggernaut across a country.

I don't remember if the comics themselves stated this idea or if fans came up with it, but it was put forward that perhaps Prof. X had ALREADY learned to make psionic armor at the time he attacked the Juggernaut. Meaning, of course, that X-Man #10 had to occur before UX #322.

David, your point about Blaquesmith's map in Cable #23 doesn't quite convince me. There's nothing to suggest that Cable read the ENTIRE list of places on his map -- for all we know, the dot in the Meditterenean was simply off the screen at the time.

However, upon looking at the other books, I see that there IS some evidence that X-Man #10 cannoy occur before UX #322.

X-Man #10 features the fight between Nate and Prof. X. It leads directly into X-Man #11, where he stumbles across Rogue. Rogue in turn directs him to Muir Island, where he shows up in X-Man #12. In X-Man #12, Colossus has already joined Excalibur (he joined in #91, and in fact X-Man #12 leads directly into Excalibur #95).

However, in X-Men #42-44 and UX #325, which expressly occur AFTER UX #322, Colossus has not yet joined Excalibur.

Which means: UX #322 occurs before UX #325, which occurs before EXCAL #91, which occurs before X-MAN #12.

So either X-Man didn't go directly to Muir in-between X-Man #11-12 -- in fact, he waited through all of UX #322-325 and EXCAL #91-94 -- or X-Man #10 occurs sometime AFTER UX #322, where it was intended by the creative teams to occur.

Oh well. It was a good thought, but it can't realistically work. I guess the mystery of how Prof. X's split personality was able to physically hurl the Juggernaut 1500 miles will have to remain just that -- a mystery.

-Jeph! 

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Re: X-Man #5-10 and UX #322
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 06, 2004 at 10:06:27:
In Reply to: Re: X-Man #5-10 and UX #322 
posted by Jeph! on January 06, 2004 at 01:25:26:

> Oh well. It was a good thought, but it can't realistically work. I guess the mystery of how Prof. X's split personality was able to physically hurl the Juggernaut 1500 miles will have to remain just that -- a mystery.

Back at the time, I think my working theory was that Onslaught (being powerful enough to overcome the psi-shielding in Juggernaut's helmet) had used mind control and made him pummel himself; Juggernaut's recollection is tainted by telepathic manipulation from Onslaught.

It's still silly, but at least has some vague possibility of making sense.

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Re: X-Man #5-10 and UX #322
Posted by Jeph! on January 06, 2004 at 10:12:13:
In Reply to: Re: X-Man #5-10 and UX #322 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 06, 2004 at 10:06:27:

> I think my working theory was that Onslaught (being powerful enough to overcome the psi-shielding in Juggernaut's helmet) had used mind control and made him pummel himself...

Yeah, that's about what I came up with after re-reading the issue last night. It is goofy, but it's probably the best rationalization we're going to get.

-Jeph! 

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Re: X-Man #5-10 and UX #322
Posted by David Hall on January 06, 2004 at 16:07:16:
In Reply to: Re: X-Man #5-10 and UX #322 
posted by Jeph! on January 06, 2004 at 01:25:26:

Regardless of "Theory" the MAP was clearly intended (at the time) to show us where Nate had been, and was currently being tracked by Blaquesmith. The way he changed the subject when Cable saw the map, is enough to make me believe that the writer wasn't trying to fool the readers about Nate's movements, just Cable.

Also X-Men 6 makes refernce to the breakin at Blaquesmith's which was first referenced in Cable 21, which we have listed after UX 322.

While the actual Onslaught story was okay, I feel that the whole lead in phase was poorly realized, and I get the feeling that some of the writers had no idea who or what Onslaught was at the time they were writing some of the early issues.

Does anyone who is privy to the bts stuff at Marvel know if this was the case, or if Onslaught, his identity and his capabilities were indeeed decided early on (and were some of the writers of the X-Men spinoff books privy to this info early on?)

Perhpas they were just trying to leave things vague until the big reveal.

David 

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Re: X-Man #5-10 and UX #322
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 06, 2004 at 18:30:20:
In Reply to: Re: X-Man #5-10 and UX #322 
posted by David Hall on January 06, 2004 at 16:07:16:

> While the actual Onslaught story was okay, I feel that the whole lead in phase was poorly realized, and I get the feeling that some of the writers had no idea who or what Onslaught was at the time they were writing some of the early issues.

> Does anyone who is privy to the bts stuff at Marvel know if this was the case

I am given to understand that at least several of the writers had absolutely no clue who Onslaught was supposed to be until very late in the day. Despite having no guidance as to what the story was going to be, who Onslaught was, what his motivation was and what his personality was, they were nonetheless required to use him in stories. 

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Blaquesmith C2 25
Posted by David Hall on January 03, 2004 at 23:49:02:

Blaquesmith's appearance in this issue (which takes place in the future has been omitted from the MCP. This app. takes place after askanison, and before hios app. in X: Prime)
(his present self is given a BTS app. in the correct place.)

X:P 1
X:P 2
X:P 3
ASKANISON 1
ASKANISON 2
ASKANISON 4
* C2 25
X: PRIME

This is also true for Tetherblood: (isn't he in some of the early Cables too?)

TETHERBLOOD/
ASKANISON 1
ASKANISON 2
ASKANISON 3
ASKANISON 4
* c2 25
C2 43-FB

It is in Cable and Jenskot's chronology.

David

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WIND-WARRIOR...WINDEAGLE...WIZARD
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 04, 2004 at 09:17:25:

new entries marked **


WIND-WARRIOR/PAMELA SHAW

**T 395
**T 396
**T 397
**T 398
**T 399
**T 400
(T 426/2 Should be renoved. Wind-Warrior does not really appear in T 426/2 other than in a two panel recap of T 395)
T@ 16/4 *** should read T@ 16/3

.. additionally:

. .SKYHAWK/WINSTON "BILLY BOY" MANCHESTER
. .T@ 16/3-FB *** should read T@ 16/2-FB
. .**T 395
. .**T 396
. .**T 397
. .**T 398
. .**T 399
. .**T 400
. .T@ 16/3 *** should read T@ 16/2

. .EARTH-LORD/KYLE BROCK
. .T 426/2
. .T@ 16/4 *** should read T@ 6/3

. .SILVER SABLE
. .ASM 345
. .T@ 16/4 *** should read T@ 16/3
. .ASM@ 25/3


WINDEAGLE/HECTOR SANTIAGO RUIZ

**M/PRM 52-FB (2p5-3p2)
JA 24
**BP 14 (22p4-22p5)
**BP 15 (30p5-30p7)
**M/PRM 51
M/PRM 52


WIZARD/BENTLEY WITTMAN

FF 133
**FF 148
(FF 149) ****The Wizard is not actuallly seen in FF 149. At best this should be a BTS entry. The Wizard was imprisoned when last we saw him in FF 148 (17p2). FF 149 (2p2) shows us the same room moments later and though we do not actually see the trap with the villains, they must still be present and out of sight.
DPOOL3 35-FB

.. .. .. .. ..

ASPOT 29/2
**FF@ 23/2-FB
ASM@ 24/3


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#146

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Wolverine 94 / Gen X 8
Posted by David Hall on January 04, 2004 at 11:13:03:

GenX 8 has a reference to finding the token in the grotto, which occurred in W2 94, meaning that W2 94 comes before Gen x 8. This is listed in Banshees chronology as between GENX 7 and 8 (which means that he waits until Logans visit is over to investigate the disappearance of Cassidy keep. Maybe it took a couple of days to make flight arrangements, etc, and Logans visit was already scheduled for the next day.)

It is listed incorrectly in everyone elses chronology.

White Queen: 
GENX 6
GENX 7
*W2 94
GENX 8
GENX 9

Husk
GENX 6
GENX 7
* W2 94
GENX 8
GENX 9

Skin
GENX 6
GENX 7
* W2 94
GENX 8
GENX 9

Synch
GENX 6
GENX 7
* w2 94
GENX 8
GENX 9

Jubilee
GENX 6
GENX 7
*W2 94
GENX 8
GENX 9

M
GENX 6
GENX 7
* W2 94
GENX 8
GENX 9

Chamber
GENX 6
GENX 7
* W2 94
GENX 8
GENX 9

			*	*	*

Ux 325/GENX 6-7
Posted by David Hall on January 04, 2004 at 11:38:37:

In UX 325, some of GENX X: Banshee, M, Jubilee, Skin are at the Mansion playing baseball.

In Banshees listing, this comes between GEN X 6 and 7. In everyone elses listing this comes after GEN X 9.

Also in the White Queens listing UX 324 is listed after GenX 9.

It would be easy to amend Banshees listing, but doing so would mean that UX 323-325 have to come after W2 93 and 94, which would be a big change in Logans listing, and for everyone else who appears in W2 93.) (We know W2 94 occurs before Gen X 8, as the events in W2 94 are referred to in GenX 8.)

Therefore, I would leave Banshees listing alone, and change M, Jubilee, and Skins listing to move up UX 325 as such:

GENX 6
* UX 325
GENX 7

We would also have to change Emma Frosts listing to move up UX 324.
GENX 6
* UX 323 
*UX 324
GEN X 7

Ive added her app. In UX 323, which I believe is an actual appearance, based on the fact that she appears to be keeping track telepathically of Bobby Drake during his road trip, as evidenced in UX 324, where she knows it is Bobby who is calling her.

David

			*	*	*

XFOR & C '95
Posted by David Hall on January 04, 2004 at 13:26:58:

In Cannonballs listing XFOR & C 95 comes after XFOR 51, while in Sunspot, Siryn, Warpath, Shatterstar, and Calibans listing it comes after XFOR 48 and before XFOR 49. In Boomers listing it comes after X 47, and before UX 328.

In XFOR & C 95 Tabiatha is referred to (by Siryn) as Boomer This means it must come before X-FOR 51 (where she changes her codename to Meltdown), which makes Cannonballs listing incorrect.

I propose the following change:

Cannonball
UX 95
XOR 48
* XFOR & C 95
XFOR 51
X 48


The Second story is left out of Arcades listing, but is listed in Dominos as occurring right after the first story.
This story should be added to Arcades listing:

Arcade
W/G 4
XFOR & C 95/2
GG 10 FB
GG 10

			*	*	*

Arcade BTS in X:Prime
Posted by David Hall on January 04, 2004 at 14:08:36:

Arcade should at least get a BTS for X:Prime, with him blowing up Murderworld and such.

This would go between:

S-M 25
* X:PRIME - BTS
W/G 4-FB 

			*	*	*

Guardians of the Galaxy question; System Bytes crossover with Punisher, Wonder Woman, and Daredevil creates an odd problem; did those last three annuals also take place in Earth-Guardians of the Galaxy?
Posted by John McDonagh on January 04, 2004 at 15:02:24:

About ten years ago, a crossover called The System Bytes came out in which the Punisher (in Annual#5), Daredevil (in Annual#8), Wonder Man (in annual#1) fought the computer program Ultra-Max. 
System Bytes continued in Guardians of the Galaxy Annual#2.......and here we have a problem. The Guardians of the Galaxy exist in an alternate Earth, so unless Ultra-Max crossed universe, then that means all those three aforementioned Annual actually took place on Earth-Guardians of the Galaxy?

Part 1 - Punisher (3rd series) Annual #5 - The Punisher and Microchip discover the Ultra-Max virus.
Part 2 - Daredevil (1st series) Annual #8 - Daredevil and Deathlok battle Ultra-Max.
Part 3 - Wonder Man (2nd series) Annual #1 - Wonder Man battles Ultra-Max at an abandoned Hydra base.
Part 4 - Guardians of The Galaxy Annual #2 - Ultra-Max resurfaces 1,000 years into the future and causes the creation of Korvac II. 

			*	*	*

Re: Guardians of the Galaxy question; System Bytes crossover with Punisher, Wonder Woman, and Daredevil creates an odd problem; did those last three annuals also take place in Earth-Guardians of the Galaxy?
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 04, 2004 at 17:27:37:
In Reply to: Guardians of the Galaxy question; System Bytes crossover with Punisher, Wonder Woman, and Daredevil creates an odd problem; did those last three annuals also take place in Earth-Guardians of the Galaxy? 
posted by John McDonagh on January 04, 2004 at 15:02:24:

> About ten years ago, a crossover called The System Bytes came out in which the Punisher (in Annual#5), Daredevil (in Annual#8), Wonder Man (in annual#1) fought the computer program Ultra-Max.

> System Bytes continued in Guardians of the Galaxy Annual#2.......and here we have a problem. The Guardians of the Galaxy exist in an alternate Earth, so unless Ultra-Max crossed universe, then that means all those three aforementioned Annual actually took place on Earth-Guardians of the Galaxy?

> Part 1 - Punisher (3rd series) Annual #5 - The Punisher and Microchip discover the Ultra-Max virus.
> Part 2 - Daredevil (1st series) Annual #8 - Daredevil and Deathlok battle Ultra-Max.
> Part 3 - Wonder Man (2nd series) Annual #1 - Wonder Man battles Ultra-Max at an abandoned Hydra base.
> Part 4 - Guardians of The Galaxy Annual #2 - Ultra-Max resurfaces 1,000 years into the future and causes the creation of Korvac II.

The Guardians were shoehorned into that year's multi-annual crossovers.

If you want to take it literally that the Ultra-Max is the same as the one in the DD/PUN/WON annuals, then it is possible that it was somehow plucked from the Mainstream reality at some point in its space voyage and deposited in the Guardians' reality. How this might happen or why anyone would do this is a mystery.

Another possibility is that the Guardians' reality had its own Ultra-Max that had a history similar to its Mainstream counterpart.

- SK 

			*	*	*

Re: Guardians of the Galaxy question; System Bytes crossover with Punisher, Wonder Woman, and Daredevil creates an odd problem; did those last three annuals also take place in Earth-Guardians of the Galaxy?
Posted by ShadZ on January 04, 2004 at 20:55:22:
In Reply to: Guardians of the Galaxy question; System Bytes crossover with Punisher, Wonder Woman, and Daredevil creates an odd problem; did those last three annuals also take place in Earth-Guardians of the Galaxy? 
posted by John McDonagh on January 04, 2004 at 15:02:24:

> About ten years ago, a crossover called The System Bytes came out in which the Punisher (in Annual#5), Daredevil (in Annual#8), Wonder Man (in annual#1) fought the computer program Ultra-Max. 
> System Bytes continued in Guardians of the Galaxy Annual#2.......and here we have a problem. The Guardians of the Galaxy exist in an alternate Earth, so unless Ultra-Max crossed universe, then that means all those three aforementioned Annual actually took place on Earth-Guardians of the Galaxy?

> Part 1 - Punisher (3rd series) Annual #5 - The Punisher and Microchip discover the Ultra-Max virus.
> Part 2 - Daredevil (1st series) Annual #8 - Daredevil and Deathlok battle Ultra-Max.
> Part 3 - Wonder Man (2nd series) Annual #1 - Wonder Man battles Ultra-Max at an abandoned Hydra base.
> Part 4 - Guardians of The Galaxy Annual #2 - Ultra-Max resurfaces 1,000 years into the future and causes the creation of Korvac II.

I have actually thought about this, and I eventually concluded that Punisher Annual #5, Daredevil Annual #8 and Wonder Man Annual #1 did indeed happen in the mainstream universe, but very similar events must have also happened on Earth-GOG to set up Guardians of The Galaxy Annual #2. This is very possible, since at that point, the differences betwen the mainstream universe and the Guardian's universe were slight.

ShadZ

			*	*	*

System Bytes
Posted by StAkAR Karnak on January 05, 2004 at 17:09:07:
In Reply to: Re: Guardians of the Galaxy question; System Bytes crossover with Punisher, Wonder Woman, and Daredevil creates an odd problem; did those last three annuals also take place in Earth-Guardians of the Galaxy? 
posted by ShadZ on January 04, 2004 at 20:55:22:

> I eventually concluded that Punisher Annual #5, Daredevil Annual #8 and Wonder Man Annual #1 did indeed happen in the mainstream universe, but very similar events must have also happened on Earth-GOG to set up Guardians of The Galaxy Annual #2. This is very possible, since at that point, the differences betwen the mainstream universe and the Guardian's universe were slight.

Aside from widespread adaptation of cyborg tech, a functioning lunar colony, and the first manned landing on Mars by 1988...

- SK, admitting the possibility but chafing at it. 

			*	*	*

Re: System Bytes
Posted by ShadZ on January 06, 2004 at 18:46:17:
In Reply to: System Bytes 
posted by StAkAR Karnak on January 05, 2004 at 17:09:07:

> > I eventually concluded that Punisher Annual #5, Daredevil Annual #8 and Wonder Man Annual #1 did indeed happen in the mainstream universe, but very similar events must have also happened on Earth-GOG to set up Guardians of The Galaxy Annual #2. This is very possible, since at that point, the differences betwen the mainstream universe and the Guardian's universe were slight.

> Aside from widespread adaptation of cyborg tech, a functioning lunar colony, and the first manned landing on Mars by 1988...

Well, at least the Martians haven't invaded yet!

Actually, I didn't know that much stuff had happened. Still, I don't think it would affect the Punisher or Daredevil stories (going from memory). But the Wonder Man story was built around some kind of sattalite launch, wasn't it? With a very different history of space flight on Earth-GOG, I suppose the story would play out differently there.

Can we work backwards on this? Does Guardians of The Galaxy Annual #2 include any flashbacks to events in the Punisher, Daredevil or Wonder Man stories? Not narritive descriptions, but actual pictured flashbacks? Because if it does, we must assume that the events shown in those flashbacks did happen in Earth-GOG... 

			*	*	*

Re: System Bytes
Posted by Peter Fabricius on January 07, 2004 at 02:57:17:
In Reply to: Re: System Bytes 
posted by ShadZ on January 06, 2004 at 18:46:17:


> Can we work backwards on this? Does Guardians of The Galaxy Annual #2 include any flashbacks to events in the Punisher, Daredevil or Wonder Man stories? Not narritive descriptions, but actual pictured flashbacks? Because if it does, we must assume that the events shown in those flashbacks did happen in Earth-GOG... 

Yes it does, page 11 of the story has four panels, one showing Maxwell Edward Mumford sitting at a computer, one showing Deathlok fighting the virus, one showing a naked Wonder Man reentering the Earth's atmosphere, and one showing the spacecraft carrying Ultra-Max preparing to land on Mainframe's world.

			*	*	*

Re: System Bytes
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 07, 2004 at 11:55:12:
In Reply to: Re: System Bytes 
posted by Peter Fabricius on January 07, 2004 at 02:57:17:

I don't really have anything to contribute to this thread, but honestly... somebody did a crossover between Guardians of the Galaxy and the PUNISHER?!?

Thank god the nineties are over.

			*	*	*

Re: System Bytes
Posted by Peter Fabricius on January 07, 2004 at 15:03:29:
In Reply to: Re: System Bytes 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 07, 2004 at 11:55:12:

> I don't really have anything to contribute to this thread, but honestly... somebody did a crossover between Guardians of the Galaxy and the PUNISHER?!?

> Thank god the nineties are over.

The year before The Punisher Annual crossed over into the Silver Surfer Annual.
The nineties indeed.

			*	*	*

Re: System Bytes
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 07, 2004 at 18:37:30:
In Reply to: Re: System Bytes 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 07, 2004 at 11:55:12:

> I don't really have anything to contribute to this thread, but honestly... somebody did a crossover between Guardians of the Galaxy and the PUNISHER?!?

Not only was there a crossover, but there were a whole group of vigilantes on Earth in the Guardians' time called the Punishers.

There were also a descendant of Wolverine and a counterpart of Ghost Rider as recurring characters. Not to mention a few foil covers...

- SK 

			*	*	*

tri-sentinel
Posted by rhod on January 06, 2004 at 20:02:53:

there is an appearance missing for the tri-sentinel:
ASM 329 

			*	*	*

Dark Beast/Fatale X-Men 48 & 49 & UX 299
Posted by David Hall on January 06, 2004 at 23:03:24:

X-Men 48 was left out of the Dark Beast's listing.

X-Men 49 appears in the wrong place in the Dark beast's chronology. It should be:
XF 118
*X 48
*X 49
UX 10

I know this because he has Havok (kidnapped) with him in X-Men 49. Havok was not kidnapped by the Dark Beast until X-Factor 118

Fatale is shapeshifted as a waitress, and appears in X-Men 48. It is also revealed (in X-Men #49)that she is the waitress in Uncanny X-Men #299.

Her listing should therefore read:
*UX 299
XF 112
XF 113
XF 114
XF 117
XF 118
*X 48 
X 49
XF 124
XU 10

David

			*	*	*

Cable 29 - No Sugar Man
Posted by David Hall on January 06, 2004 at 23:14:35:

Sugar Man is not in Cable 29. Does anyone know if he makes any appearances post X-Men 49? 

			*	*	*

X49 - Havok
Posted by David Hall on January 06, 2004 at 23:19:30:


Havok's listing for X-Men 49 is incorrect.
X 49 has to occue after XF 118, as Havok is captured and turned over to the Dark Beast (by Random) is XF 118.

Havok's listing should read:
X:PRIME
XF 112
XF 113
XF 114
XF 115
XF 116
XF 117
XF 118
* X 49
XF 124

David

			*	*	*

Ymir in Savage Tales#1/1; a summary of the Conan story that he is behind the scenes in
Posted by John McDonagh on January 07, 2004 at 15:17:18:

Ymir made a behind the scences appearance in Savage Tales#1 in the Conan story. I will explain this further in the summary below.

Savage Tales#1/1 (first story)
"The Frost Giant's Daughter"
Characters
Conan (inbetween Savage Tales#4/1 and Savage Sword of Conan#34/1)
Ymir (behind the scenes, last seen in Journey Into Mystery#97/2; appears next in Journey Into Mystery#98/2) saves Atali from Conan)
Atali (Ymir's daughter)
Wulfhere (behind the scenes, a human Aesir warrior)
Hymdul (human Aesir warrior)
Horsa (human Aesir warrior)
Gorm (human Aesir warrior) 
Niord (human Aesir warrior; appears next in Conan the Barbarian I#109)

Except for Niord, Conan and Ymir, nobody in this story appears elswhere.

Summary; Conan participates in a battle between the Aesir (a human tribe of his time) and the Vanir (another human tribe of his time). After slaying Hymdul (a Vanir warrior), Conan passes out. Waking up he sees Atali, Ymir's daughter. She attempts to lead him into a trap, sicking two of her brothers on him, but Conan slays them both and advances on her. Atali cries out to her father Ymir to save her, and she is then teleported away.
Mystified by what happened, Conan passes out again. He wakes up again when Aesir warriors Niord, Horsa, and Gorm (who all serve an unseen commander named Wulfhere) find him. 

http://www.geocities.com/conancomicchronology/conantwo.html is where I got the placement of this story in Conan's chronology.

For Ymir, since JIM#97/2 presents his origin, this story must follow. It takes place at 10,000 BCE, so it would predate Odin's slaying of Ymir. 

So, Ymir's new chronology;
YMIR
JIM 97/2
SVT 1/1-BTS
JIM 98/2
DRSTR 177
DRSTR 178
A 61
T 294
M/SH3 5
T 417/2-BTS
T 418/2-BTS
T 419/2-BTS
T 420/2-BTS
T 421/2
T 422/2
T 423/2
T 424/2
T 425
T2 14-FB

			*	*	*

SARA WOLFE...WOLFSBANE...WOLVERINE
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 08, 2004 at 16:24:48:

new entries marked **


WOLFE, SARA

DRSTR2 63
**DRSTR2 65
DRSTR2 66


WOLFSBANE/RAHNE SINCLAIR

NM 34
**SWII 5 (9p5, 11p1)
NMSE 1


WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT

UX 202
**SWII 8
UX 203


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#147

			*	*	*

UX 331 Vs. X-FOR 52-54
Posted by David Hall on January 08, 2004 at 20:26:41:

In X-Force 53 Warpath is knocked unconcious by Selene. In X-Force 54 Warpath has disapeared. He makes an app.on the last page of X-Force #55, and then is in X-Force #56. 

For some reason his listing has him (and other members of x-force) appearing in UX 331 in between X-Force 53 and 57 (55 and 56 are not in the MCp yet)

This should be changed. UX 331 has to come before XFOR 52-54, as James Proudstar cannot go missing, show up at the mansion, and disapear again. (Well he could, but only if there was a major chronology reason for this, which there is not.)

We would have to change Warpath's listing to:
*UX 331
XFOR 52
XFOR 53
(XFOR 55) Not in MCP yet.
(XFOR 56) Not in MCP yet.
XFOR 57

Notice that Boomer/meltdown's chronolgy correctly lists UX 331, before XFor 52)
C2 29
UX 331
XFOR 52
XFOR 53
XFOR 54-FB
XFOR 54-FB
XFOR 54
(XFOR 55)
No Changes needed here!
Also needing to be changed are:

Sunspot:
*UX 331
XFOR 52
XFOR 53
XFOR 54-FB
XFOR 54-FB
XFOR 54
(XFOR 55)

and Shatterstar:
*UX 331
XFOR 52
XFOR 53
XFOR 54-FB
XFOR 54-FB
XFOR 54
(XFOR 55)
(XFOR 56)

As no one else who appears in UX 331 appears in XFOR 52-54, this will not cause problems with anyone else's listings.

By thw way, Bastion appears in both X-Men 52, and X-Force 54, before his app. in Uncanny X-Men 333.
(This is why he is the shadows in both of those issues. If he had already made his big debut in UX 333, there would be no reason not to show him, rather than a shadowy figure.)
X-Men 52 is not yet in the MCP, but XFOR 54 is, so Bastion's listing should read:
MM '98-FB
(X 52) Not in MCP yet.
* XFOR 54
UX 333
UX 334

David

			*	*	*

Re: UX 331 Vs. X-FOR 52-54
Posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on January 09, 2004 at 14:25:52:
In Reply to: UX 331 Vs. X-FOR 52-54 
posted by David Hall on January 08, 2004 at 20:26:41:

> By thw way, Bastion appears in both X-Men 52, and X-Force 54, before his app. in Uncanny X-Men 333.

Do we know it's really him in X-FORCE #54? As I recall, it's just some shadowy figure referring to Operation: Zero Tolerance who tries to intimidate Charlotte Jones.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch 

			*	*	*

Re: UX 331 Vs. X-FOR 52-54
Posted by David Hall on January 10, 2004 at 00:33:14:

In Reply to: Re: UX 331 Vs. X-FOR 52-54 posted by Marc-Oliver Frisch on January 09, 2004 at 14:25:52:

No, because we do not see his face or hear his name, we cannot be sure this is Bastion. It is kind of clear that it was probably intended to be him, but that's not any kind of proof per se.

Still, unless there is some evidence in another comic stating that this shadowy figure is not Bastion, I believe that it is.

David

			*	*	*

Flashbacks in ASM 502 -- a start to placing them
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 08, 2004 at 22:00:56:

In ASM 502, tailor Leo Zelinsky tells his tale to Spidey in a series of flashbacks, described below.

I've started to place these flashbacks, but I'm getting tired of checking umpteen comic books to see if so-and-so's costume was torn thus-and-so at a time when he was in New York. Rather than risk not posting any of this, I decided to go ahead and see if anyone had some ideas for filling this out.

I've described each flashback scene and provided a space for discussion of context and placement. The assumption is that the flashbacks occur in the order shown.

#1)
The flashback (page 12, panels 2-5):
Tailor Leo Zelinsky is getting ready to close shop one night, about five, six years ago. A naked Thing walks in, covering himself strategically with newspaper pages. Thing says, Hey, pal  you wanna give a guy a hand here? I was just inna fight with these guys, then there was this blast and  You got something in a seventy waist? And I gotta have stretch in the inseam or I chafe. Zelinsky replies, Let me see what I can do.

Proposal for context and placement:
Its likely that Ben was not with his teammates when he lost his clothes. Im inclined to think that Ben really wasnt in a battle, but was the victim of a practical joke by the Yancy Street Gang, and that he didnt want to admit it to Zelinsky. However, Zelinskys shop is on 23rd Street near Eighth, not exactly in the lower East Side neighborhood of Yancy Street. Anyone know of a blast that stripped the Thing nekkid?

#2)
The flashback (page 13, panel 1):
Through word of mouth, Zelinsky finds himself up to his tuchis in spandex. Zelinsky speaks to the first Captain Marvel (who is off-panel) as he spreads out on a table a costume reminiscent of Mar-Vells original green uniform (weve never seen this new costume on Mar-Vell). Mar-Vells classic red and blue costume (introduced in CM 17) is on a tailors mannequin behind Zelinsky. So, Mister Marvel   Mar-Vell.  I think you need to find one look and stay with it. Changing every few months, this cant be good. You need a consistent look. But I like the wrist bands. Accessorizing is very important, Mr. Marvel. Mar-Vell.

Proposal for context and placement:
Zelinskys comments about Mar-Vell constantly changing costumes is unfounded; he may be confusing Mar-Vell with someone else. The five, six years ago statement about flashback #1 must be an underestimation, as Mar-Vell died longer before ASM 502 than that. But to make that time reference as close as I could, I placed this flashback very late in Mar-Vells chronology. So...Mar-Vell heard about Zelinsky from the Thing during some socializing that obviously occurred right after Mar-Vell worked with the FF in FF @ 15. Soon after this, Mar-Vell appeared in M/SPOT2 8, in which the sleeves of his costume were shredded. Needing a repair, he goes to Zelinsky. Suspecting or aware of his cancer, Mar-Vell becomes a bit introspective and considers changing his costume to go back to his roots, so he asks Zelinsky to make a new costume. He changes his mind about the new costume (maybe after hearing Zelinskys comments) and appears next in M/GN 1, his last appearance before death.

#3)
The flashback (page 13, panels 2-3)
Zelinsky is working to repair a tear across the shirt of Captain Americas costume. Cap is sitting there, in mask and costume bottom, with gauze and bandages around his left arm and a bandage around his left thigh. Zelinsky asks him, Shouldnt you take care of that injury first? The shirt can wait   Cap replies, The important things have to be fixed first.

Proposal for context and placement:
It looks like Cap has multiple lacerations from an event that tore his costume. So...he appears here right after being thrown through a window at Avengers Mansion by Rogue in A @ 10. He allowed himself to be patched up quickly by a teammate before heading to Zelinskys.

#4)
The flashback (page 13, panels 5-6):
A young man with close-cropped blond hair is in front of a rack of costumes at Zelinskys, holding a costume to try on. He says, But I wanna be the Wolf. Zelinsky replies, Its too generic. Besides, theres already a Wolverine out there, you want to be different, be your own person. Everybody wants to be some kinda wolf. Its strictly yesterday. How about the Ferret? Ever seen a ferret? My niece, shes got two. Very cute, very smart, very tough   But I dont want to be the Ferret. Just think about it, thats all Im saying.

Proposal for context and placement:
You got me. I dont know who this guy is supposed to be. There was a character named Ferret (whos not in the MCP), but he was a lackey of Dr. Faustus who appeared in CA 107  not this guy. And hes definitely not Wolf from Spirits of Vengeance. Maybe hes some schlub who makes his only appearance here. Or maybe he shows up somewhere with a different moniker.

#5
The flashback (page 14, panel 1):
Dr. Doom (or a Dr. Doom robot) shows up at Zelinskys, flanked by a Doombot at each side. He hands Zelinsky a torn cape and orders him to fix it.

Proposal for context and placement:
This would need to follow a story in which Doom (or a robot double) was in New York and tore his cape. The Doombots might have come from the Latverian Embassy in Manhattan (at least I think there was one there). I'm coming up empty so far.

#6
The flashback (page 14, panel 3):
The Blob, dressed only in black underpants, stands before a mirror at Zelinskys and says, So Im thinking of just wearing a thong from now on, like those Sumo wrestlers. What do you think?

Proposal for context and placement:
The Blob may be here after damaging a costume, likely one worn during his Freedom Force years (from UX 141 on). He may be using this opportunity to re-think his attire, but never goes through with the thong idea. I'm hard-pressed to find an exact placement so far.

#7
The flashback (page 14, panel 5):
Zelinsky examines Thors classic tunic, torn at right proper center, on a tailors mannequin. Thor reads a newspaper as he waits (no headline legible).

Proposal for context and placement:
After some New York-based adventure or upon return from some Avengers mission in which his tunic was torn in that spot. And obviously sometime while he wore his classic costume. Too many comics to check here, but those I did check were dead ends.

Any thoughts??

--Paul B.

			*	*	*

Early Mystique appearances
Posted by Jeff on January 09, 2004 at 10:14:59:

Hi there,

Just wondering if Mystique makes any appearances between Ms. Marvel #22 (1978) and her first appearances in Uncanny X-Men and Avengers Annual #10 (1981). As far as I can tell, she's planning to betray some employer named "The Lord" one moment, and is forming a new Brotherhood of Evil Mutants the next. Did anything ever come of this "Lord" or did he just go forgotten? 

			*	*	*

Re: Early Mystique appearances
Posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2004 at 11:00:15:
In Reply to: Early Mystique appearances 
posted by Jeff on January 09, 2004 at 10:14:59:

Well, according to the website that this message board is attached to ... cough ... Mystique appeared in "Marvel Super Heroes" vol. 3 #10-11.

The stories in this issue were intended to run in Ms. Marvel #24-25, but the series was cancelled with #23. They saw print almost 15 years later in the "MSH" book.

By the way, in replying to this, I noticed that Mystique's appearance in Ms. Marvel #22 (on p.10, panels 3-4) is not on the MCP.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Early Mystique appearances
Posted by Jeff on January 10, 2004 at 16:59:10:
In Reply to: Re: Early Mystique appearances 
posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2004 at 11:00:15:
Hi jeph,

I definately consulted the site before posting this question. There's speculation that those Marvel Superheroes issues were intended to run in Ms. Marvel #24 and 25, but it's not a definate fact, especially since those issues include Sebastian Shaw, who doesn't make his actual first appearance for several years to come.

I'm mainly concerned because I believe the "Lord" in the Ms. Marvel issues is the same character as the "Master" in X-Men #110 (just a few months earlier), who's similarly never heard from again. The Master is telepathic, and while he may have originally been intended as the leader of the yet to be introduced Hellfire Club, he most surely isn't Sebastian Shaw. True, this is only a theory. That's why I wanted to know if anyone knew of other Mystique appearances not included on the site that might shed light on this.

			*	*	*

Re: Early Mystique appearances
Posted by Jeph! on January 10, 2004 at 22:53:11:
In Reply to: Re: Early Mystique appearances 
posted by Jeff on January 10, 2004 at 16:59:10:

> There's speculation that those Marvel Superheroes issues were intended to run in Ms. Marvel #24 and 25, but it's not a definate fact

Oh, sure it's a fact. Ms. Marvel #23 didn't say anything about being a final issue -- meaning someone was hard at work on #24 and onwards when the book was axed by editorial -- and those two MSH stories have the exact same creative team as Ms. Marvel; Chris Claremont and Mike Vosburg. Plus, the MSH book was nothing more than a home for archived and unpublished stories.

Also, check out the end of MSH3 #11/3 -- after 20 pages or so, the creative team abruptly shifts to a modern-day writer and artist -- and tells a horribly truncated version of Rogue's fateful meeting with Ms. Marvel. The easy deduction is that, in the middle of drawing Ms. Marvel #25, the book was axed and Vosburg quit drawing it -- then, 10+ years later, when the decision was made to publish the thing after all, it was given to some other folks to wrap up as fast as possible.

> those issues include Sebastian Shaw, who doesn't make his actual first appearance for several years to come.

Uhm, can't we assume that those issues were intended to BE his first appearance? They were written by Claremont, after all, who later introduced Shaw -- odds are good that after Ms. marvel #24-25 were shelved, he simply sat on the Shaw character and re-introduced him in UX #129.

> I'm mainly concerned because I believe the "Lord" in the Ms. Marvel issues is the same character as the "Master" in X-Men #110...

Sorry, I can't help you there. :-(

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Early Mystique appearances
Posted by Jeff on January 10, 2004 at 23:03:20:
In Reply to: Re: Early Mystique appearances 
posted by Jeph! on January 10, 2004 at 22:53:11:

> > There's speculation that those Marvel Superheroes issues were intended to run in Ms. Marvel #24 and 25, but it's not a definate fact

> Oh, sure it's a fact. Ms. Marvel #23 didn't say anything about being a final issue -- meaning someone was hard at work on #24 and onwards when the book was axed by editorial -- and those two MSH stories have the exact same creative team as Ms. Marvel; Chris Claremont and Mike Vosburg. Plus, the MSH book was nothing more than a home for archived and unpublished stories.

Yes, but Claremont is a big hindsight revisionist. I don't dispute that the issues were based upon his original idea for Ms. Marvel
24 and 25, but rather that they were either altered in hindsight, or that Shaw's character was changed afterward. It's possible that Shaw was originally envisioned as a telepath (thus Uncanny #110).

			*	*	*

Chronology review: Emma Frost #1-6
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 09, 2004 at 18:51:58:

HIGHER LEARNING
EMMA FROST #1-6 (August 2003 to February 2004)
by Karl Bollers, Randy Green and Rick Ketchum

GENERAL COMMENTS:
This arc spans several months.

Best to be clear about this from the outset: EMMA FROST flatly contradicts the information about Emma's childhood which was given in GENERATION X. In that series, Emma claimed that she had been packed off to a lunatic asylum by her parents when her powers emerged, that she had been abused by the guards, but that she had eventually escaped by learning to use her telepathy to take control of them. That's completely irreconcilable with EMMA FROST, and can only be explained as Emma lying to Generation X and Sean Cassidy in order to buy sympathy.

The series does, however, take NEW X-MEN #139 as gospel, and repeats an entire scene verbatim.


SYNOPSIS:
* GENERATION X #48, page 14 panel 3 - flashback. This is a shot of Adrienne, Emma and Cordelia, with Adrienne as a teenager and Cordelia looking around eight years old (she's much smaller than the others, and hugging a teddy bear). Emma says that there are "three of us, in all", which ignores Christian - but she might just be referring to her sisters, in context.

* EMMA FROST #4, page 2, panels 2 to 11 - flashback. The life history of minor character Dante Ortega. Panel 2 has him as an infant, panel 3 shows him as a boy with his mother. Panel 4 has him as a teenage boy at his mother's grave. Panel 5 shows him buying drugs, and panel 6 shows him being arrested. Things become relevant to the plot with panels 7-8, where Dante meets Christian Frost on a beach, and they talk. The remaining three panels show them dating. (Dante and Christian's dialogue makes clear that this is the first homosexual relationship either has had; this flashback must therefore precede issue #1, since Christian was already dating a man in issue #2. In issue #5, Dante and Christian claim to have met at a jazz bar, which isn't quite what we see here.)

Characters: Dante Ortega, Christian Frost

* EMMA FROST #1, pp1 to 11. "Ten years ago." (Monday - the days can be inferred from later scenes.) The Snow Valley School for Girls, Snow Valley, Massachusetts. It's the second trimester. Green trees. Emma Frost and her classmates are given their grades by teacher Ian Kendall. The obnoxious Matilda Brandt has got As in everything. Emma has got Bs in everything. It's an improvement on last trimester, but she's still disappointed. After class, the other kids are generally bitchy towards Emma, and we establish that they think she only made it into the school because her dad pulled strings for her. Also, she lives at the Frost family mansion, and has a chauffeur to take her to and from school - everyone else is boarding. Emma has been suffering from headaches for "weeks", which of course are her powers emerging.

After school, Emma is driven home by the family chauffeur, Bryce.

The family dinner - we're introduced to the rest of the family. Winston is the condescending patriarch. Hazel is Emma's mother, a decidedly unassertive character. Emma's brother Christian is the oldest child, and the only sane one there. He works at the family business. Elder sister Adrienne is at college (she says that she's going to join the family business "once I finish my masters"). Young sister Cordelia kind of floats around the storyline being irrelevant - she seems to be there solely to maintain continuity with GENERATION X.

Christian is out of favour because he nearly revealed a trade secret to a major competitor earlier in the day. Emma presents her report card, and asks if she can go to the school dance. Winston refuses, on the basis that Bs are not good enough (even though he'd apparently told her earlier that she could go if she got Bs). Emma runs off in tears. Christian stands up for her, and walks out. Adrienne talks through the whole scene on her phone, and then blithely asks Cordelia what happened. Cordelia: "Dinner fell apart before anyone could ask how my day went. Hail Satan."

Emma's bedroom. Christian sympathises with her. Emma tells him about her headaches, but asks him not to tell their parents. Christian agrees, on condition that she consults the school doctor.

Characters: Emma Frost, Ian Kendall, Matilda Brandt, Bryce, Winston Frost, Hazel Frost, Christian Frost, Cordelia Frost, Adrienne Frost

* EMMA FROST #1, pp12 to 14. "Three days later" (ie, Thursday). The school. Emma attends fencing class. She spars with Matilda. During the match, Emma has another headache and develops a nosebleed. She collapses. Emma is taken to the school doctor, Dr Davenport, and tells her about the headaches. Davenport gives Emma painkillers, and asks to see her again "in two weeks."

Characters: Emma Frost, Matilda Brandt, Dr Davenport

* EMMA FROST #1, pp15 to 22. "The following day" (ie, Friday). Full moon. The midterms are "only three weeks away." Emma is cornered after class by her teacher, Ian Kendall. Kendall is worried about her and offers to give her private tutoring. Emma has a crush on Kendall.

That evening, with Christian's help, Emma sneaks out of the house and goes to the dance against her father's wishes. He drops her off at the school. One of the boys from the neighbouring school, Josh, takes an interest in Emma. Matilda gets jealous and tears Emma's dress. Emma turns round and reveals to the world that Matilda's family are on the verge of bankruptcy - something that she has subconsciously picked up telepathically. Matilda attacks Emma, and easily wins the ensuing catfight. Everyone laughs at poor Emma. Later, Christian drives her home; Emma refuses to tell him what happened.

When she gets home, Kendall has already phoned ahead (not realising that she snuck out). Winston is waiting, and is furious.

Characters: Emma Frost, Ian Kendall, Christian Frost, Matilda Brandt, Winston Frost.

* EMMA FROST #1, pp23 to 26. Next Monday. At school, Emma talks with Ian Kendall about the dance. He tries to cheer her up, with some success. The chauffeur arrives to pick her up; on her way out of the school, Emma's telepathy finally emerges, and she collapses in confusion. Kendall races to help her. (This scene is promptly retconned next issue - it seems that Emma wasn't leaving the building after all, but rather was due to attend a midterm exam. Since issue #2's version is crucial to the plot, and issue #1 isn't, the latter version prevails.)

Characters: Emma Frost, Ian Kendall, Matilda Brandt

* EMMA FROST #2, pp1 to 8. The same day (Monday). Emma wakes up in the school infirmary, with Dr Davenport and the headmistress Ms Cruikshank. Cruikshank says that the midterm exam has been rescheduled to tomorrow, because of the disruption. Emma leaves the infirmary and is confronted by Matilda. Matilda insinuates that Emma was faking in order to escape the exam. Ian Kendall also asks Emma what happened; she claims that she skipped breakfast that morning, and of course he doesn't believe her. The chauffeur arrives (again!) to pick her up.

"That evening", at the Frost manson. Winston reveals that he arranged for the test to be postponed. Taking Emma's excuse at face value, he promptly fires the maid for not feeding Emma properly, despite Emma's protests. Later, Christian also expresses concern. He wants to tell their parents about the headaches. Emma blackmails him by threatening to reveal that he's going on a date that night. Again, this is information she's picked up telepathically. (She doesn't know that his date is another man.)

Characters: Emma Frost, Dr Davenport, Ms Cruikshank, Matilda Brandt, Ian Kendall, Bryce, Hazel Frost, Winston Frost, Christian Frost.

* EMMA FROST #2, pp9 and 10. "The next day" (Tuesday). Emma sits the exam. Telepathically, she picks up the answers from everyone else in the room.

Characters: Emma Frost, Ian Kendall, Matilda Brandt

* EMMA FROST #2, pp11 to 16. "The following week." Ian Kendall gives back the midterm marks. Emma has got an A+. Matilda suspects cheating. Later, in fencing class, Emma and Matilda spar again. Emma wins, but then collapses. During the fight, she reads Matilda's mind consciously. Back at home, Emma reflects on the day and then goes to bed.

Characters: Emma Frost, Ian Kendall, Matilda Brandt

* EMMA FROST #2, pp17 to 22. The next day? Ms Cruikshank calls in Emma and Ian Kendall. Cruikshank says that Emma's midterm results are so far out of line with her track record that corruption has been alleged. Emma must take the midterm again. Emma duly does so, and this time she deliberately gets some of the questions wrong. To her astonishment, she is given an A+ again. She tells Kendall. He complains to Cruikshank, who reveals that she destroyed the new paper and gave Emma an A+ in order to keep her father happy. Emma overhears this, and is left in tears.

Characters: Emma Frost, Ian Kendall, Matilda Brandt, Ms Cruikshank

* EMMA FROST #3, pp1 to 4. Winter - snow. Emma passes another test at A+. She is now passing all her exams by telepathically reading the answers from other pupils' minds. Meanwhile, Matilda leaves the school - with her family bankrupt, they can no longer afford the fees.

Characters: Emma Frost, Ian Kendall, Matilda Brandt, Ms Cruikshank

* EMMA FROST #3, pp5 to 8. "One month later." Full moon. Green trees. Ian Kendall takes Emma and her class on a tour of the Boston Museum of Fine Arts. At lunch, Kendall suggests that she join the school's Peer Tutor Program. Still smitten with Kendall, Emma agrees, hoping to spend more time with him.

That evening, at the Frost residence, Cordelia is hauled up before the family over allegations of marijuana use at school. Cordelia denies all wrongdoing, which is a lie. Winston demands a drug test. Cordelia is outraged and storms out. Emma mentions her latest A-grade. Winston is unimpressed, since he thinks Emma ought to get As as standard.

Characters: Emma Frost, Ian Kendall, Cordelia Frost, Hazel Frost, Winston Frost, Adrienne Frost, Christian Frost.

* EMMA FROST #3, pp9 and 10. "Two weeks later." (Friday.) Emma tutors other girls. She enjoys it. Afterwards, she talks to Kendall, who suggests that she consider teaching as a career. Emma also senses that Kendall is attracted to her.

Characters: Emma Frost, Ian Kendall, Ms Cruikshank

* EMMA FROST #3, pp11 to 14. "The following morning." (Saturday.) The Frost residence. Emma tells Winston that she wants to be a teacher. He regards teaching as beneath Emma, and tells her that it's unacceptable. She claims that Kendall inspires her; Winston decides that something must be done about him. Later, Christian and Emma go riding. He supports her choice of career, but suggests that there was no point raising it with Winston.

Characters: Emma Frost, Winston Frost, Christian Frost

* EMMA FROST #3, pp15 to 20. "Three weeks later." Heavy rain. Emma is picked up by Bryce. The car breaks down. Bryce goes to get help. Kendall drives past and offers her a lift. When they arrive at the Frost mansion, Emma decides to act on what she perceives as mutual attraction, and kisses him. Kendall is horrified and denies having any interest in her (which is a lie, but he's not prepared to have a teacher/pupil relationship). Winston watches from inside the house.

Characters: Emma Frost, Bryce, Ian Kendall, Winston Frost.

* EMMA FROST #3, pp21-23. "The following morning." Emma arrives at school to find that Kendall has been fired. Cruikshank explains that she had to sack him after an allegation of misconduct with a pupil. At home, Emma confronts Winston, who confirms that he had Kendall sacked using the mansion security-camera footage of her kissing him. [Yes, I know this is ridiculously quick - first thing next day, and Kendall's already fired? - but the caption is unambiguous, and it's repeated in the recap in issue #4.]

Characters: Emma Frost, Ms Cruikshank, Winston Frost

* EMMA FROST #4, page 4, panel 3 - photograph. Emma's graduation. Emma is shown, rather bored, standing next to Christian. Winston is in the background, not paying much attention. This is "three weeks ago" relative to the main story in issue #4 (which is said to be in June).

Characters: Emma Frost, Christian Frost, Winston Frost

* EMMA FROST #4, pages 1 to 5. June. Boston. Emma and Bryce go to visit Christian, who is now living in a townhouse belonging to their father. Christian is the first family member to have moved out. Emma meets Dante for the first time - he storms out of the building, having just had an argument with Christian. Dante walks straight past her, but Emma involuntarily reads his mind and learns that Dante and Christian are gay. They pick up Christian's bags and head to the airport.

"Two hours later", the Frosts are on a private flight to Nice, for the annual summer holiday. None of the kids particularly want to go. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Christian Frost, Dante Ortega, Bryce, Winston Frost, Hazel Frost, Cordelia Frost, Adrienne Frost

* EMMA FROST #4, pages 6 to 19. During the family holiday. Nice, France. Emma sunbathes with Cordelia and Adrienne. Adrienne explains why she is confident of being Winston's successor as head of the family business. Adrienne hints that she knows Christian is gay. (Emma can't read Adrienne's mind, which is a plot point previously established in GENERATION X.) Emma tires of Adrienne's monologue and wanders off on her own.

On Le Promenade Des Anglais, Emma bumps into a man and immediately senses that he is a serial killer. Yes, four issues in, and it's an actual, proper villain! She is stunned, and when she gets her bearings, she also finds that she has picked up fluent French. Emma sees a photo of Adrienne on the front of a magazine - which comes as a surprise, since Adrienne has never mentioned a serious modeling career.

The Frost family villa, early evening. Emma tries to talk to Christian about Adrienne's secret modelling career. Christian doesn't care, because he's too busy sulking about his fight with Dante and drinking himself into a stupor. Emma tries to talk about that, and Christian tells her to mind her own business.

"That night", Emma is out shopping (yes, at night) when she sees Winston leaving a hotel with a young woman, apparently his mistress. Emma tails Winston and takes photos. They go to a club. Emma tries to follow, but she can't get past the bouncer (because she's obviously underage). She resorts to reading the bouncer's mind and blackmailing him with the information she obtains (he's sleeping with the boss's wife). He lets her in. 

Inside the club, Emma finds Christian drinking with the serial killer she saw earlier. The killer has spiked Christian's drink, and leads him away. Emma follows (and causes enough commotion that Winston spots her). In an alley, Emma attacks the killer telepathically. He manages to escape. Winston also follows, and demands an explanation.

Characters: Emma Frost, Adrienne Frost, Cordelia Frost, a serial killer, Winston Frost

* EMMA FROST #4, pages 20 to 23. The next day. Still in Nice. Emma and Christian talk. Christian tells Emma that he's gay (and she pretends that she didn't already know). Adrienne secretly tapes the conversation and plays the tape to Winston. Winston confronts Christian and Emma. Cordelia comes in, and Winston is less than impressed to see that she's now got a tattoo and a piercing. Emma produces the magazine and reveals Adrienne's modelling career. She then reveals that she has given her photos to Hazel - who comes in, holding the camera and looking at the incriminating photos of Winston. (Despite this being so many years ago, Emma was apparently using a digital camera...)

Characters: Emma Frost, Christian Frost, Winston Frost, Hazel Frost, Adrienne Frost, Cordelia Frost

* EMMA FROST #5, page 1 to page 2 panel 3. The return from holiday - 11.26pm. Logan International Airport, Boston. The Frost family have just disembarked from their return flight. Winston demands that Christian return to the family home with them. Christian flatly refuses, and storms out. Emma is impressed.

Characters: Emma Frost, Christian Frost, Winston Frost, Hazel Frost, Adrienne Frost, Cordelia Frost.

* EMMA FROST #5, page 2 panel 4 to page 13. The same night, 2.14am. The Frost residence. Emma tries to get her mother Hazel to stand up for herself. Hazel is in denial and is looking for excuses to dismiss the photos. Emma telepathically shows Hazel what she saw. Hazel collapses. (Full moon.)

5.02am. The family doctor, Dr Upjohn, tells Winston and the daughters that Hazel is in shock after her seizure, but won't need to be hospitalized. Winston actually seems mildly concerned by all this; Adrienne and Cordelia don't care.

Morning. Emma is sitting at Hazel's bedside when she gets a phone call from Christian. Winston has fired him, and had the locks changed on the townhouse. Emma goes to the townhouse where she finds him sitting on the steps. She persuades him to move in with Dante Ortega instead of returning home.

Later, Emma storms into Winston's office and tells him that Christian will not be coming back. Winston maintains that he is simply trying to teach Christian "traditional family values."

Evening. Emma phones Christian, now at Dante's house. Hazel regains consciousness, and the girls and Winston gather round her bedside. Hazel does remember what Emma showed her, but pretends that she doesn't.

Characters: Emma Frost, Christian Frost, Hazel Frost, Winston Frost, Cordelia Frost, Adrienne Frost, Dante Ortega

* EMMA FROST #5, pages 14 to 18. "One week later." Somerville, Boston. Emma goes to Ian Kendall's house, but a neighbourhood girl says he moved away "in the spring." She heads on to Roxbury and visits Dante and Christian. The drug squad barge in and arrest everyone.

Five hours later. Winston comes to visit Emma and Christian in jail. Apparently drugs were found in Dante's apartment. (Christian doesn't officially live there, so he's not going to be prosecuted over it.) Reading Winston's mind, Emma reveals that Winston paid corrupt cops to plant the drugs. Because Dante has genuine previous convictions and is an immigrant, he has chosen to return to Cuba rather than go to prison in the USA. Christian is devastated.

Characters: Emma Frost, Christian Frost, Dante Ortega, Winston Frost

* EMMA FROST #5, pages 19 to 22. "Two weeks later." Night. Emma argues with Adrienne again. Later, Emma wakes from a dream, sensing that something is wrong with Christian. She races to his room and finds that he has tried to hang himself. (As we see next issue, he didn't succeed.)

Characters: Emma Frost, Adrienne Frost, Christian Frost

* EMMA FROST #6, pages 1 to 4. The same night, past midnight - 12.07am. New England Hospital, Boston. Emma, Cordelia, Adrienne, Hazel and Winston wait for word on Christian. Adrienne accepts responsibility and apologises to Emma. Emma refuses to talk to her, and Adrienne's reaction indicates that she probably wasn't sincere anyway. Winston is more worried about the adverse publicity if Christian's condition becomes public knowledge. Emma argues with her father, and Winston has Bryce take Emma away by force.

Characters: Emma Frost, Adrienne Forst, Cordelia Forst, Winston Frost, Hazel Frost, Bryce, Christian Frost (bts)

* EMMA FROST #6, pages 5 to 7. "The following Tuesday." Frost House. Christian is recuperating in bed. Emma comes to visit. Christian is still suicidal. Emma leaves in tears, and Cordelia watches her go.

Rather bizarrely, Christian is watching footage of the original X-Men on TV - the commentary says that this is amateur video footage of the X-Men in New York, and queries whether it's a hoax. The strong implication is that this is an extremely early appearance by the X-Men. Unfortunately, the artist has drawn them in their late-Silver Age costumes rather than their blue/gold uniforms. That's probably an art error. Regardless, this pushes us up past FF 1 and creates timeline problems with the Banshee's appearance in GENERATION X #-1 - if indeed that issue is still canon at all.

Characters: Emma Frost, Christian Frost, Cordelia Frost.

* EMMA FROST #6, pages 8 to 10. "Two weeks later" - thus, Tuesday. Frost House. Hazel is making arrangements for a major party. Emma and Adrienne help out. Adrienne tells Emma that, since her seizure, Hazel has been using huge amounts of drugs. Emma goes to Hazel's private bathroom and finds that the medicine cabinet does indeed contain large volumes of drugs (a ludicrously large amount, in fact).

Characters: Hazel Frost, Emma Frost, Adrienne Frost

* EMMA FROST #6, pages 11 to 13. "The next day" - thus, Wednesday. Emma visits Christian again and finds him high on heroin. Since Christian hasn't been allowed out of the house, Emma correctly infers that Cordelia got it. Emma confronts Cordelia, who says that she only got the drugs because Christian was pestering her.

Characters: Emma Frost, Christian Frost, Cordelia Frost.

* EMMA FROST #6, pages 14 to 21. "The following evening" - thus, Thursday. The party at Frost House. Everyone has now changed into their costumes and hairstyles from the NEW X-MEN flashback. Christian has been allowed to attend the party. He's obviously high. Emma is worried about him and, reluctantly, tells Winston that Christian is on drugs. Winston takes her aside and apologises for his recent actions. He promises to make sure Winston gets help, and compliments her on her attempts to outwit him. Emma's telepathy tells her that he is sincere. 

After the party has dispersed, Winston gathers the family together in the living room and announces that Emma is his chosen successor. Nurses arrive to cart Christian away to a mental institution. Emma is horrified, having assumed that Winston would arrange for Christian to go into rehab. She storms out.

Now, then... the scene where Winston announces Emma as his chosen successor is a direct lift from NEW X-MEN #139. The dialogue in the overlapping panels is identical, save for a minor change in one of Winston's lines and the deletion of Emma saying "*Tt*". The reuse of dialogue is quite neat, because Bollers has completely changed the meaning of the scene - in the NEW X-MEN version, Emma simply refuses to accept family patronage.

The correct panel sequence is:-

EMMA FROST #6 p14 to p19pn3
EMMA FROST #6 p19pn4-5 ~ NEW X-MEN #139-FB p9pn5 to p10pn1-2.
NEW X-MEN #139-FB p10pn3-4
EMMA FROST #6, p20pn1 ~ NEW X-MEN #139-FB p11pn2
NEW X-MEN #139-FB p11pn3
EMMA FROST #6, p20pn2-p21pn2
EMMA FROST #6, p21pn3 ~ NEW X-MEN #139-FB p11 pn4
EMMA FROST #6, p21pn4-5

Characters: Emma Frost, Christian Frost, Cordelia Frost, Adrienne Frost, Winston Frost, Hazel Frost

* EMMA FROST #6, page 22. Emma walks down a city street. Basically a symbolic panel showing her on her own. However, Emma's clothes and the building in the background broadly mirror the above flashback. Thus, this is probably supposed to be Emma just after she's left the bank. At the very least, that would fit the purpose of the scene.

Character: Emma Frost

* NEW X-MEN #139, page 11 panels 5-6 - flashback. Emma goes into a building and, uh, comes out again. The accompanying dialogue seems to indicate that this is meant to be Emma going into a bank, withdrawing the $400 in her savings account, and leaving again.

Character: Emma Frost

* NEW X-MEN #139, page 10 panel 5 - flashback. Christian Frost lies in a padded cell, in a straitjacket, beating his head against the wall. Presumably it took some time for him to deteriorate to this extent.

Characters: Christian Frost

* GENERATION X #48, page 14 panel 5 - flashback. For completeness, this is a generic shot of Adrienne Frost as a successful businesswoman in her office. Clearly some time after the arc, but since I'm mentioning issue #48, I might as well throw this one in.

==========

APPENDIX: CONTRADICTED FLASHBACKS.

* GENERATION X #48, page 14 panel 4 - flashback. Emma is taken away to the mental institution while Adrienne and Cordelia look on (from what appears to be a suburban bungalow!). A flashback in which Emma is relating past events to Sean Cassidy. This fits into the flashback in issue #24, which is discredited by EMMA FROST #1-6; it necessarily gets deleted as well.

* GENERATION X #24, pages 21 and 22 - flashback. When Emma begins to hear voice in her head, Emma's parents have her sent to a lunatic asylum. There, she is - it's implied - raped by the guards. However, eventually she is able to use her telepathy to take control of a guard, and escapes as the building burns down.

All of this is a story that Emma tells to Jubilee, Husk and M, apparently designed to illustrate some point she wanted to make about the importance of freedom. Discredited in EMMA FROST.

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: Emma Frost #1-6
Posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2004 at 23:07:10:
In Reply to: Chronology review: Emma Frost #1-6 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 09, 2004 at 18:51:58:

Nicely done as usual, Paul. A few thoughts, though:

> * EMMA FROST #6, pages 5 to 7.
> Rather bizarrely, Christian is watching footage of the original X-Men on TV - the commentary says that this is amateur video footage of the X-Men in New York, and queries whether it's a hoax. The strong implication is that this is an extremely early appearance by the X-Men. Unfortunately, the artist has drawn them in their late-Silver Age costumes rather than their blue/gold uniforms. That's probably an art error. Regardless, this pushes us up past FF 1 and creates timeline problems with the Banshee's appearance in GENERATION X #-1 - if indeed that issue is still canon at all.

So, let me see here -- the contradiction is:

1) Emma Frost met Banshee AFTER leaving home (ie, after EF #6).
2) Banshee was still working in law enforcement at the time.
3) Banshee made his debut as a super-villain in UX #28, where the team was still wearing their blue-and-golds.
4) However, in EF #6, the team is wearing their colorful individual outfits.

The problem isn't that the X-Men EXIST, right? It's just their costumes that are the issue?

So, two possible solutions:

1) "Art error".
2) Do we have any proof that Banshee LEFT his law enforcement career to be a super-villain? What are the chances that he still *held* a police position, and simply moonlighted as a costumed hero? That way, his appearance in GENX #-1 could occur between his apperances in UX #43 and 58.

> ==========

> APPENDIX: CONTRADICTED FLASHBACKS.

> * GENERATION X #48, page 14 panel 4 - flashback. Emma is taken away to the mental institution while Adrienne and Cordelia look on ... This fits into the flashback in issue #24, which is discredited by EMMA FROST #1-6; it necessarily gets deleted as well.

> * GENERATION X #24, pages 21 and 22 - flashback. When Emma begins to hear voice in her head, Emma's parents have her sent to a lunatic asylum ... eventually she is able to use her telepathy to take control of a guard, and escapes as the building burns down ... Discredited in EMMA FROST.

On his X-Fan forum (and archived in the link below), Karl Bollers said that he'd resolve the asylum plot point in upcoming issues -- although, "not the way anyone expects". Huzzah.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Let's try that link again...
Posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2004 at 23:08:32:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology review: Emma Frost #1-6 
posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2004 at 23:07:10:

Odd -- I guess if you don't add a Link Title as well as a URL, no link posts. Just to be sure I do this right, here it is in plain text:

http://www.emmagracefrost.com/previews.htm

			*	*	*

Re: Let's try that link again...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 10, 2004 at 05:35:04:
In Reply to: Let's try that link again... 
posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2004 at 23:08:32:

Interesting - but I bet the explanation is that she's lying...! 

			*	*	*

genosha
Posted by poetdowns on January 09, 2004 at 21:52:08:

Can someone please tell me where (what book) the bombing/destruction of Genosha took place? I keep coming across references to the event, that don't tell me where -it's driving me nuts.

Also, just an idea for the chronology project: what about referencing main/major events like the above? 

			*	*	*

Re: genosha
Posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2004 at 23:12:35:
In Reply to: genosha 
posted by poetdowns on January 09, 2004 at 21:52:08:

> Can someone please tell me where (what book) the bombing/destruction of Genosha took place?

New X-Men #115.

> Also, just an idea for the chronology project: what about referencing main/major events like the above?

I'm not too hot on that idea -- it seems like there are hundreds of fan-sites out there whose mission statements are closer to that than ours -- plus, how do you define "major event"? -- but I don't run the place, so I'll hand your suggestion off to Russ.

Russ?

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: genosha
Posted by Administrator on January 09, 2004 at 23:33:22:
In Reply to: Re: genosha 
posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2004 at 23:12:35:

> > Also, just an idea for the chronology project: what about referencing main/major events like the above?

> I'm not too hot on that idea -- it seems like there are hundreds of fan-sites out there whose mission statements are closer to that than ours -- plus, how do you define "major event"? -- but I don't run the place, so I'll hand your suggestion off to Russ.

> Russ?

You're exactly right. I don't want to get into plot elements. That's why there's no indication of marriages, divorces, graduations, births, deaths, yadda yadda.

			*	*	*

Milestones
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 10, 2004 at 08:44:33:
In Reply to: Re: genosha 
posted by Administrator on January 09, 2004 at 23:33:22:

I know this has been covered before, but I am ever one to beat a dead horse. For what it is worth, I think noting these milestones would be helpful for determining chronologies. Besides, I'd love to see all of Wonder Man's deaths and resurrections.

- SK 

			*	*	*

major events
Posted by poetdowns on January 11, 2004 at 04:48:57:
In Reply to: Milestones 
posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 10, 2004 at 08:44:33:

quoting Jeph, "besides how do you define a 'major event'?" That's a good point.
Marvel is getting really (imo) sloppy about using reference points when a character refers to something important. It's mildly frustrating. 

Thanks for the help!
Poet 

			*	*	*

havoc's return
Posted by poetdowns on January 09, 2004 at 22:18:21:

Can someone tell me where Havoc popped up? Last time i saw him was in Mutant X, which is also the last listing in the chronology. Now he's back in the x-men but i missed the where and how.
Thanks. 

			*	*	*

Re: havoc's return
Posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2004 at 23:14:04:
In Reply to: havoc's return 
posted by poetdowns on January 09, 2004 at 22:18:21:

> Can someone tell me where Havoc popped up? Last time i saw him was in Mutant X, which is also the last listing in the chronology. Now he's back in the x-men but i missed the where and how.
> Thanks.

He next appeared in Uncanny X-Men #411, and has been in pretty much every issue since.

-Jeph!
P.S.: "HavoK". 

			*	*	*

Re: havoc's return
Posted by rhod on January 10, 2004 at 23:17:12:
In Reply to: Re: havoc's return 
posted by Jeph! on January 09, 2004 at 23:14:04:

> > Can someone tell me where Havoc popped up? Last time i saw him was in Mutant X, which is also the last listing in the chronology. Now he's back in the x-men but i missed the where and how.
> > Thanks.

> He next appeared in Uncanny X-Men #411, and has been in pretty much every issue since.

Do we know for certain that the Havok who recently came out of a coma is the 'original' Havok, or is there a possibility that this is the Mutant X 'bad' Havok that our Havok replaced in the Mutant X universe?
> -Jeph!
> P.S.: "HavoK".

			*	*	*

Re: havok's return
Posted by Jeph! on January 11, 2004 at 10:16:15:
In Reply to: Re: havoc's return 
posted by rhod on January 10, 2004 at 23:17:12:

> Do we know for certain that the Havok who recently came out of a coma is the 'original' Havok

Yes.

> or is there a possibility that this is the Mutant X 'bad' Havok that our Havok replaced in the Mutant X universe?

Actually, Exiles #28-30 addressed this very issue. The Mutant-X Havok briefly took over the body of our Havok, but was driven out by the Exiles.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Raza Longknife
Posted by David Hall on January 10, 2004 at 12:01:17:

Raza's app. in CX 15/2 has been left out. His listing should read:


UX 391-FB
*CX 15/2
CX 14
UX 107
UX 108

			*	*	*

Chronology review: Elektra #28-31
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 10, 2004 at 16:30:50:

DEAD TO RIGHTS
ELEKTRA #28 (December 2003) by Rob Rodi, Sean Chen and Sandu Florea

GENERAL COMMENT:
One scene, spanning a few hours starting at 9pm on a Friday evening in Manhattan. No references to the time of year.

A ton of time references, but not all of them work...

SYNOPSIS
* ELEKTRA #28. "Friday evening". In a restaurant in Manhattan, Elektra tracks down and kills Ken, Michael, Leonard and George, the brokers who put her in touch with Beben in the previous storyline. Ken has idiotically ordered Elektra's own execution (which is their normal practice in order to cover their tracks), and she's not pleased about it.

Characters: Elektra, Ken, Michael, Leonard, George

George was actually killed earlier in the day, but appears as a corpse.

"Milo wants in on Paraguay" but "he had his chance eight months ago." Whatever that means.

In answer to a question from Michael, Leonard says that Elektra killed Mr Anger - her predecessor as their assassin - "three weeks ago." But when Michael asks what Elektra has done since then, Ken replies that she has killed Prebble and Spierling, and then went to London for Beben Oamat's assignment. In other words, since killing Anger, she has appeared in issues #23-27. But internal references in those storylines show that they span a bare minimum of nine weeks. Possibly it's a slip of the tongue and he means "three months", which would fit the other stories much better. The recap page of issue #29 also rejects the three week period, and says that Elektra worked for this group for "several months." It also names the group as the Paladin Corporation, a name not actually used in the story itself.

Beben Oamat was killed "two days ago" - ie, it's two days since the end of issue #27.

============

PROPHET & LOSS
ELEKTRA #29 (January 2004) by Rob Rodi, Will Conrad and Sandu Florea
ELEKTRA #30 (February 2004) by Rodi, Conrad and Florea
ELEKTRA #31 (March 2004) by Rodi, Conrad and Florea

GENERAL COMMENTS:
This one's a bit dull, to be honest.

The recap page says that Elektra is choosing to pursue assignments away from New York until "the heat dies down" following on her murder of the Paladin Corporation in the previous issue.

Prior to this storyline starting, the Naou rebellion has been underway for months. The prime minister says that he has been in office for six months, and that his predecessor resigned after failing to deal with the rebels.

I haven't bothered listing the names of individual cultists - quite honestly, most of them are almost impossible to tell apart, and it's not like any of them are ever going to turn up again. Large chunks of this storyline consist of very minor characters talking about tremendously unimportant stuff, to be frank.

No clear indication of the seasons - the landscape looks to be a bit of a wasteland at the best of times.

SYNOPSIS:
* ELEKTRA #29, pages 1 to 11. Day 1. Naou - a small, impoverished island monarchy. We're not told exactly where it is, but Taiwan is said to be a "distant neighbour." The economy is based on agriculture and American air bases. Elektra is briefed by a government representative (apparently the prime minister, but the office is never made entirely clear). A rebel movement is threatening to overthrow the government. The USA has offered to help, but the Naou government don't want to call them in (the implication is that, for some reason, they think the USA is looking for an excuse to invade). The rebel movement is a cult led by the Piaka Loio ("Bloody Prophet"). The Piako Loio claims to be the reincarnation of Bara, the ancient god of death. Nobody has actually seen him. Elektra is to kill him. All of this, of course, is unofficial.

Elsewhere on the islands, Bara cultists led by General Selvi attack and "liberate" a farm, slaughtering everyone present. Selvi awards the farm to one of the cultist soldiers, Tika. The cultist soldiers return to their camp. There, the cultists discuss when they are to move on the capital city, Naou City. One cultist decides to confront the Piako Loio himself. Selvi stops him from disturbing the Piako Loio.

Characters: Elektra, the prime minister, Bara cultists, General Selvi

* ELEKTRA #29, pages 12 to 22. Day 2. The king's daughter is being driven to the airport (which we were told would happen "first thing tomorrow" when Elektra was being briefed). Cultist soldiers attack and kidnap her. They take her back to the base. Now that the heir to throne has been captured, Selvi is confident that the government will not move against them, and that they can move on the capital.

Selvi and the Piako Loio addresses the men (with the Piako Loio off camera). They will march on the capital tomorrow. Orat tries to rape the princess, but Elektra appears and kills him.

Characters: Elektra, Selvi, Orat, the Princess, the Piako Loio, cultists

* ELEKTRA #30. Day 2, continued. Night at the camp. Full moon. Basically, a bunch of bit part characters wander around talking about local mythology and the prospects of success. Meanwhile, Elektra plants a whole load of bombs, and then makes her way to the Piako Loio's hut, where she finds that he's a child. (Apparently Elektra must have stowed the princess somewhere, but it's not entirely clear.)

Characters: Elektra, Selvi, the Piako Loio, cultists

* ELEKTRA #31, pages 1 to 3. Day 2, continued. Elektra is not prepared to kill a child, and leaves the camp. She considers this to be an ethical dilemma: she does not want to kill a child, but she does not want to renege on her assignment now that she has accepted it.

Characters: Elektra, the Piako Loio, cultists

* ELEKTRA #31, page 15 panels 4 to 6. Overnight. Elektra wakes elderly cultists Merak and tells him that the Piako Loio no longer speaks for Bara. As Elektra plans, the superstitious Merak believes that he is experiencing a vision. (Lord...)

Characters: Elektra, cultists

* ELEKTRA #31, pages 4 to 17. Day 3. Elektra's bombs have destroyed most of the cultists equipment. Selvi thinks that his plans have been destroyed, and wants to abandon the offence. But the Piako Loio insists that they proceed, as he has faith in his religious destiny. Selvi is outraged - in fact, the Piako Loio is just a stooge who he has put up to gain political power for himself. When Selvi confronts the Piako Loio, the other cultists consider him a traitor, and kill him. The cultists march towards the city and camp for the night. Elektra attacks at night and slaughters all of the Piako Loio's guards. As they hear the screams, the other cultists listen to Merak's story. The army loses its faith, and disbands.

Characters: Elektra, Piako Loio, cultists

* ELEKTRA #31, pages 18 to 22. Day 4. Dawn. Elektra finds the Piako Loio, still at the site of the battle. He is determined to get revenge, but Elektra is confident that she has achieved her job - she has destroyed the Piako Loio persona, so the insurrection is over.

Elektra returns to the capital city and assures the prime minister that the prophet is dead.

Government soldiers pick up the Piako Loio. They don't believe he's the real prophet, and tell him that he will be sent off to a state orphanage.

Characters: Elektra, Piako Loio, prime minister. 

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology review: Elektra #28-31
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 10, 2004 at 22:17:24:
In Reply to: Chronology review: Elektra #28-31 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 10, 2004 at 16:30:50:

Thanks again for the analysis, Paul. I've tentaively added these issues to the calendar in March of the "current" MU year.

--Paul B.

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Princess of Naou in Elektra #29
Posted by Don Campbell on January 12, 2004 at 09:44:49:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology review: Elektra #28-31 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 10, 2004 at 22:17:24:

> > PROPHET & LOSS

> > SYNOPSIS:
> > * ELEKTRA #29, pages 12 to 22. Day 2. The king's daughter is being driven to the airport (which we were told would happen "first thing tomorrow" when Elektra was being briefed). Cultist soldiers attack and kidnap her. They take her back to the base. Now that the heir to throne has been captured, Selvi is confident that the government will not move against them, and that they can move on the capital.

> > Selvi and the Piako Loio addresses the men (with the Piako Loio off camera). They will march on the capital tomorrow. Orat tries to rape the princess, but Elektra appears and kills him.

> > Characters: Elektra, Selvi, Orat, the Princess, the Piako Loio, cultists


> > * ELEKTRA #30. Day 2, continued. Night at the camp. Full moon. Basically, a bunch of bit part characters wander around talking about local mythology and the prospects of success. Meanwhile, Elektra plants a whole load of bombs, and then makes her way to the Piako Loio's hut, where she finds that he's a child. (Apparently Elektra must have stowed the princess somewhere, but it's not entirely clear.)


This is a really minor point...but we never actually see the REAL Princess of Naou in ELEKTRA #29-31. The "Princess" who is captured by the rebels in issue #29 is really Elektra disguised as the Princess...as is confirmed in the synopsis page for issue #30.

Don Campbell 

			*	*	*

Fang II
Posted by David Hall on January 10, 2004 at 19:39:26:

Inhumans vol 3 #4 is for some reason listed in Fang II's chronology, even though Fang II dies from turning into a Brood in UXM 162.

Fang V appears in Starjammers #4, and Inhumans vol.3 #4

(For the record Fang IV was an assassin who appeared in Exclibur #69 and #70, but was killed By Cerise.


David 

			*	*	*

Brood: Day of Wrath
Posted by David Hall on January 10, 2004 at 22:34:32:


A while back (June 03) to be exact, Sean Curtin posted a very good analysis of X-Men: Brood Day of Wrath, and offered up some requisite listing changes. I would like to make some changes to this. So anyone who is interested, doesnt have to go looking through the old posts, I have taken the liberty of reposting Seans message here, after my post.

Why do I want to make a change?
I want to move X-Men: Brood Day of Wrath back in time a single issue, as I believe that this should be set before X-Men Unlimited 10, which provides a drastic change to the x-men lineup, replacing our Beast, with the Dark Beast from the AOA universe.
There is no dialogue in Brood 1 and 2 to suggest that the Hank McCoy in this story is the dark beast (as there is in nearly every issue with the dark beast.) (Due to the fact that Archangel and Psylocke are absent, I am comfortable in placing this after The X-Men #328/Sabretooth: Red Zone storyline.)

I think that Sean got this one right, in Beasts chronology, putting this l.s. in between UX 330, and x 50. The only problem is that he lists Cannonball, Cyclops, Iceman, and Xavier as last appearing in XU 10, which contradicts his listing for the Beast (or implies that this limited series is set in the middle of XU 10, which makes no sense to me.)

I propose the following adjustments to Seans placement of this issue, while keeping his proposed adjustments for all of the other characters intact:

Cannonball

X 48
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
XU 10
X 50

Cyclops
X 48
C2 29
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
XU 10
X 50

Iceman
X 48
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
XU 10
X 50

Professor Xavier
X 48
UX 330
C2 29
C2 31
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
XU 10
X 50


This allows us to dodge the Is he or isnt he? issue with the Dark beast, still set these issues close to X-Men 50, and avoid some potential confusion for anyone who is unfamiliar with the Dark Beast storyline.

I would like to give a big thank you to Sean for analyzing these issues.

David Hall


X-Men vs. Brood: Day of Wrath analysis
Posted by Sean Curtin on June 21, 2003 at 09:35:26:

X-MEN VS. BROOD: DAY OF WRATH #1-2 (Sept.-Oct. '96)

This series has to take place shortly before X 50, given the makeup of the team; since it was published a few months after X 50, I've placed it immediately before X 50.

#1 (Sep '96)
Characters:
Conover, Hannah (also in -FB to previous appearances)
Phoenix/Jean Grey
Cyclops
Grey, Dr. John
Grey, Elaine
Bailey, Galen
Bailey, Joey
Professor X
Storm
Cannonball
Bishop
Wolverine
Beast
Iceman
Conover, Reverend William (also in -FB to previous appearances)
Thomas, Josey (also in -FB; dies)

Synopsis: Hannah Conover has been infected with a Brood Queen embryo for years, and has suppressed its corruption. Her husband, a devout reverend, has been using her Brood-derived powers to heal their congregation, believing it to be the work of God, unaware that the process is transforming those healed into human/Brood hybrids--a revelation that later gives Reverend William a crisis of faith. The Brood send a war party to kill Conover and her "offspring", and the X-Men come to her aid--but she wants them all to kill her and her creations, and Wolverine is ready to do the job.

#2 (Oct '96)
characters:
Conover, Reverend William (next in issues of PUN3)
Conover, Hannah
Wolverine
Cyclops
Storm
Iceman
Phoenix/Jean Grey
Beast
Bishop
Cannonball
Professor X

Synposis: Conover's Brood mutates (none are named) throw their lives away to save their "mother" from both X-Men and Brood; thanks to their somewhat misdirected sacrifice, the X-Men are able to save the Conovers, defeat the Brood landing party, and convince Hannah not to kill herself. They place Hannah in suspended animation in the X-Mansion, and never refer to her again. William overcomes his crisis of faith and goes on to become an ardent supporter of mutant rights.


Updated chronologies:

BAILEY, GALEN
XF 35
XF 40
X 30
**BROOD 1
X 51
...

BAILEY, JOEY
XF 35
XF 40
**X 30
**BROOD 1
X 51
...

BEAST/DR. HENRY "HANK" MCCOY
...
UX 330
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
X 50
...

BISHOP/LUCAS
...
X 49
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
X 50
...

CANNONBALL/SAMUEL "SAM" GUTHRIE
...
XU 10
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
X 50
...

**CONOVER, HANNAH
UX 232
UX 233
BROOD 1
BROOD 2

**CONOVER, REV. WILLIAM
UX 232
UX 233
BROOD 1
BROOD 2
(next appeared in PUN3)

CYCLOPS/SCOTT SUMMERS
...
XU 10
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
X 50
...

GREY, DR. JOHN
...
UX 322
**BROOD 1
X 51
...

GREY, ELAINE
...
XF 40
**BROOD 1
X 51
...

ICEMAN/ROBERT "BOBBY" DRAKE
...
XU 10
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
X 50
...

PHOENIX/JEAN GREY SUMMERS
...
C2 31
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
X 50
...

PROFESSOR X/PROF. CHARLES XAVIER
...
XU 10
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
X 50
...

STORM/ORORO MUNROE
...
C2 29
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
X 50
...

THOMAS, JOSEY
**BROOD 1-FB (may be a flashback to of UXM 232-233? don't have those issues, so I don't know for sure)
**BROOD 1

WOLVERINE/"LOGAN"/JAMES HOWLETT
...
UX 330
**BROOD 1
**BROOD 2
X 50
...

-- 
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

captain universe
Posted by rhod on January 10, 2004 at 23:23:56:

I know that captain universe is not a character per se, but would it be possible to list chronolgically all the people who have possessed the captain universe powers, rather than just list the appearances of one possessor(possessee?)?Alternatively, can anyone direct me to a website where this information can be found? 

			*	*	*

Re: captain universe
Posted by Prime Eternal on January 15, 2004 at 13:16:09:
In Reply to: captain universe 
posted by rhod on January 10, 2004 at 23:23:56:
http://www.marvunapp.com/master/capbcapz.htm

MH

			*	*	*

Chronology Review for Daredevil #51-55, for the calender...
Posted by Kevin on January 11, 2004 at 20:52:06:

Well, here it is. I feel like I'm a little rusty from having not written one of these up in a few months. Let me know if you have any questions...

Chronology review for DD#51-55.

Some comments:

This storyline revolves around Echo, a character we last saw in DD2 #9-15. It's her story, and Daredevil only plays a small part within it...David Mack, (the writer/artist) is a painter with a really wierd style...great portions of the story are spent in Echo's head, as she talks to us the audience. That, plus the wierd visuals, make for a decidely different type of comic story. It get's my praise for being somewhat revolutionary, for trying something different, but it gets my scorn as a chronologer, as his style...makes it difficult...but I'll give you all the details I can. He doesn't use conventional comic book panels for the most part. Instead, he paints a page and inserts words among the imagery. 

The story is set clearly after DD#50, and as there is a one year gap between DD#50 and DD#56, this storyline, (which could be spread over many months) could fall anywhere in that one year period...

Daredevil #51
written and drawn by David Mack

"Echo, pt. 1"

Appearances: Maya Lopez, (aka Echo)...In flashbacks in her head, we see Daredevil, Kingpin, Crazy Horse, (Maya's father), and "Chief" an old Indian...

Synopsis: Entire issue happens inside Maya's head, (except for possibly last page), as she talks to us the readers, describing her life up to this point...

pages 1-4: Maya discusses to us the readers her being deaf.

pages 5-9: She starts to discuss her childhood, telling her relationship to her dad. I should note they are Native American Indians, so the talk is often of their culture. She tells how her father had to teach her how to about sound, as she didn't understand the concept, being born deaf and all...

As we saw in DD2 #9-15, her father was a mobster who worked with the Kingpin in the days when Fisk was first rising to power. 

pages 10-14: She discusses going to the tribal Reservation with her father. She notes they usually went there when Dad was in trouble, (in other words, wanted by the law). This is not a particular Indian reservation belonging to one tribe, but a cross cultural reservation with many tribes. She recounts that while she was there on the Reservation, she'd often listen to an elder tribesman, known mostly around the Reservation simply as "Chief". She recounts how the Chief taught her sign language, and told her stories of their culture...

On page 14, she says, "I'm 9 years old when my father dies." As we saw in DD#9-15, Kingpin had killed her father when he deemed him no longer a good 'business partner' in their underworld activities. Before executing him, Crazy Horse, (as he was called in the New York underworld) asked Kingpin to look after her daughter, (a strange request, seeing as how Kingpin's about to shoot him) but Kingpin accepts. He then shoots Crazy Horse and leaves him for dead. Apparently he didn't die immediately, as Maya recounts how she was in the Ambulance with him on the ride to the hospital. He died along the way, touching Maya's face, blood upon his hands. This was shown previously in the last arc, so there's nothing new shown here.

pgs 15-17: These pages recount the events of DD 9-15 from her perspective. Nothing new is added in flashback here. Basically, Kingpin fed her a line about how it was Daredevil who killed her father, and she sought to kill DD, when at the same time, she was dating Matt Murdock. The story concluded with Maya shooting Kingpin in the face upon learning the truth, (this is what left Kingpin blind) and her fleeing the city.

pgs 18-22: This tells what happened to Maya AFTER that storyline. She fled New York and traveled the world. We see pictures of her visiting France, and art musuems all over Europe. She's trying to rediscover herself, to pick up the pieces of her life. She takes up art as a hobby, but doesn't like what she paints. 

I think I'll point out that her powers are basically those of the Taskmaster: any thing she sees, she can copy. So she's copied not only fighting techniques, but musical and artistic styles...

But as these pages reveal, she's not satisfied. She's having trouble finding who she really is, (maybe from copying everyone over the years). She decides to resolve this inner conflict by going to confront Matt Murdock.

On page 22, Panel 4, (the final panel of the issue) we have a close up on her face, as she says, "I'm coming for you, Matt." That's the only word baloon in the entire issue, and as this is a close up on her face, I guess this is not "in her head"... 

Daredevil #52
written and drawn by David Mack

"Vision Quest, pt. 2: Family Portrait" Note: As you can see, this storyline can't figure out whether it's named "Vision Quest" or "Echo"...

Appearances: Maya Lopez, (aka Echo), Daredevil, Kingpin...In flashbacks in her head, we see "Crazy Horse", Kingpin, Maya Lopez, and Maya's mom, (who goes unnamed).

Synopsis:

pgs 1-6: Maya visits DD on a rooftop one night. It's clearly after DD#50 when DD kick's Kingpin's butt and declares himself the NEW Kingpin. Maya starts to hit on Matt, asking if he still has a place in his heart for her. Matt says he's seeing someone else now. Maya asks who it is, and says, "It's that blind girl I saw walking out of your apartment?" That's a reference to Milla Donovan, from DD#41 onward. Matt says, "Maya, you left, and a lot of things have happened. My whole world has fallen down around me. I've had to rebuild it."

When she brings up Kingpin, he says, "He's no longer an issue". But she resolves to visit him in jail. So it's after DD#50.

pgs 7-10: Now we reenter Maya's head, as she tells us in flashback, about her mom leaving her dad when she was a very early age. She can't remember her mom's face because it was when she was so young, but she thinks she remembers they argued alot. Then she tells how the doctors figured out she was born deaf.

pgs 11-15: A Flashback in her head to a conversation Maya had with her father, discussing his origins, and how Indians hand their tribal stories down orally, (they were no written texts in Native American cultures).

pgs. 16-21: Recounts her being placed in Fisk's custody at age 9, and him sending her off to a 'special school'...(cause they considered her retarded at first). But she was simply deaf, and when she started playing the piano at the "special Ed" school, in exactly the same manner as the adult who played it before her, (cause she can mimic what she sees) they learned she was incredibly gifted. So they sent her to a school for the gifted instead. We see she improves in all things over the next 10 years, turning into an athlete and a concert painist.

As she puts it, "Within 10 years, I go from Special Olympics to Olympic Gold".

Pgs. 22-23: Back to the present, and outside of Maya's head. Narrative Caption reads: "Ryker's Island, Maximum Security Penitentiary."

Fisk is told he has a visitor. He enters the "visitor" room, to see it's Maya. She's come to see him.

References:

On page 13, we get the history of Maya's dad. He says, "In your langauge, my given name means 'Dancing Horse'. On paper, my name is William Lincoln. Lincoln, like the man on the money. But most of my friends call me Crazy Horse. Crazy Horse is the name of a Lakota Chief. But my ancestors are from many different tribes. That is because they met when they were rounded up together on what is called 'The Trail of Tears'." So his last name is Lincoln, yet Maya's last name is Lopez...I can only conclude she's taken her mother's name, (doubtful, given how little she remembers of her mom) or Fisk had her renamed, upon his taking custody of her...

On page 22, we see a Full Moon in the background outside the prison walls. So, she's visiting Kingpin after dark? That's what it appears like, to me...unless the artist is drawing a sun, against a black sky...wierd...

There's no gurantee of how much time passes in between Maya meeting DD on the roof, and her going to the prison to see Fisk. It could be immediately after seeing DD, but as DD was on a rooftop, presumably out on patrol, I'd say it was too late for visiting hours that night. Perhaps the next day?

Also, in the scene with Maya and DD on the rooftop, she's wearing her "Echo" 'outfit', which consists of a short sleeve shirt and jeans, with feathers tied about her...it's somewhat like a tribute to Indian tribal battle gear...but my point is, it's not long sleeve, so maybe it's warm out tonight? 

But in the scene where she visits Kingpin in the prison, she's wearing a long fur coat....

Daredevil #53
written and drawn by David Mack

"Echo, pt. 3: The Vision Quest" (see, I told you he couldn't decide what the title was...)

Appearances: Maya Lopez, (aka Echo), Kingpin, The Chief, Wolverine

Synopsis: pgs. 1-3: CONTINUES FROM WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE. Kingpin talks to Maya, admitting he manipulated her for his own purposes, sending her out to slay Daredevil. But he says he still loves her, in his own way. "As much as it is in my nature to be able to do so. I loved you like a daughter." he says. Maya says nothing in reply, and leaves. She suddenly realizes that nothing more needs to be said between the two of them. The answers she seeks to her purpose in life, will not be found here.

pgs 4-6: COULD BE LATER ON THAT DAY, OR WHENVER...Maya goes back to her home, pondering what to do next. (we're never told where 'home' is...could be an apartment in NYC, or could be somewhere else)...she remembers the Chief from the reservation telling about something in Indian culture called a Vision Quest, (which gave him a purpose in life) and decides to go see the old Chief.

pgs 7-12: UNKNOWN HOW MUCH TIME HAS PASSED SINCE PRIOR SCENE. Maya arrives by car at the old Reservation, and finds the old 'Chief' (as he's called). She asks if he remembers her from when she was a child and came there with her father. He says he remembers her from the news as well, and how they called her Echo. 

pgs 13-17: PROBABLY SAME DAY AS LAST SCENE. IT'S NOW EVENING. The Chief explains to her what a Vision Quest is, telling her of the old legends of how the Vision Quest began back in the old days, for Indians to gain insight. He prepares her to take her own. He has her take part in a purification ceremony, then sends her off into the woods, where she is to not eat or drink for 4 days.

pgs. 18-22: WE SEE A MONTAGE OF IMAGES, AS SHE SITS AND MEDITATES IN THE WOODS FOR THE FIRST 3 DAYS. As time passes, she sees various things, which she feels may be 'signs'...she sees a bunny, and a wolf urinating on a tree nearby. She says it rains on and off throughout her meditating. 

I think page 20 safely happens on the 4th day and night. She sees two wild dogs fighting nearby, and later on, after it gets dark, she sees and owl in the tree. She doesn't know what to make of these signs. A storm is brewing on the horizon again. Lightning starts cracking, lighting up her surroundings occasionally. On the last page, (page 22) lightning strikes again, and we see in the light that she has a visitor. She thinks it's a spirit, (manitou) but we see it is truly Logan, (Wolverine).

References: On page 20, (Night number 4, the final night of her Vision Quest) we see a crescant moon in the sky. The dark spot is on the right side, (as we look at it, it's on our right. From the moon's view, it'd be on it's left). Is that a waxing or waning crescant moon? 

But then again, it could be a cloud in front of the moon, as in the next issue, we see a full moon in the sky...Mack paints a hazy skyline, so that is plausible...

Daredevil #54
Written and Drawn by David Mack

"Echo: Pt. 4: Two Dogs Fighting"

Appearances: Maya Lopez, (aka Echo), Wolverine.

Synopsis: ENTIRE ISSUE HAPPENS IN ONE NIGHT, PICKING UP WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE.

Wolverine and Maya appraise each other, not knowing what to make of one another. A lightning bolt strikes nearby, startling Maya, and so she attacks Logan, thinking he's a spirit attacking her. They fight for some time, neither of them yeilding. When Logan pops his claws out, she pauses, and asks if he's an animal spirit. He then pauses, and finally replies, "Sure."

So they calm down, and Logan takes her back to his camp, (apparently he's camping in the woods). He figures out she's on a Vision Quest. So they sit around and talk the rest of the issue. She comes out and asks him if he's an animal or a man. He thinks about it, and says, "I've had to ask myself that question at a couple points in my life."

He says "Long ago, I use to run these woods like a wild animal." He says he comes here now once a year to remind himself of that time in his life. 

He reveals that he knows "The Chief"...he says he met the Chief years ago in the woods when he was an animal. The Chief talked to him in a soothing voice, got the wild Logan to calm down....he says the Chief once put him on a Vision Quest of his own. Logan then asks Echo what she's seen on her Vision Quest. When she brings up seeing the two dogs fighting, he interrupts her, saying that reminds her of a tale he heard from the Chief years ago...

References: There's a full moon in the sky when Logan pops out his claws...

Whether Logan's encounter with the Chief happens before or after Weapon X got ahold of him, the story doesn't say...it's not shown, just told to us by Logan...

Daredevil #55
Written and Drawn by David Mack

"Echo: Part 5"

Appearances: Echo, Wolverine, Chief, Daredevil

Synopsis: 

pgs 1-15: CONTINUES FROM WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE. Logan tells Maya the story he was told by the Chief, of two dogs fighting. Basically, there was a man, who felt like there were two dogs fighting inside of him. One dog was the good side, and one dog was his bad side. Some days the bad dog won, and some days the good dog won. It's basically a story about the good and evil in each of us.

Logan says this story really stuck with him, and the Chief told him the person who told the story to the Chief died not longer after telling him, (the Chief, that is). 

But then, Maya reveals she's heard this story before. "My father told that story to the Chief a couple weeks before he died." she says.

Logan says, "That was your father?"

She replies, "But I didn't understand the story then. I only understand it now."

She goes on to talk about the dual nature in all of us, and about how the old legends told by tribal shamans can in many ways be similar to the stories about modern day superheroes...and then she falls asleep, feeling peaceful.

Pg. 15, panel 4, (last panel) cuts to later, at the teepee where she's meeting up with the Chief again. She says, "And when I woke up, the Animal spirit was gone."

pg. 16: CONTINUES FROM PG. 15, panel 4. Inside the teepee, she goes over the events on her Vision Quest with the Chief. He tells her that her father was using that spirit, "aka Wolverine" as a way of communicating to her. He says that she has now found out her role in life: she has, in his words, "The Mantle of a Storyteller".

pg. 17, panel 1: Continues the scene in the teepee. He concludes their conversation by saying to Maya, "You are a shaman to a tribe without boundaries."

Pg. 17, panels 2-3, (that's all the rest of the panels on this page)-pg18: CUTS TO WHAT IS PROBABLY MANY MONTHS LATER. Daredevil is meeting Maya on that same rooftop they met upon in issue 52. 

DD says, "I hear you've been performing at the theater again." He notes she's been doing dance performances, and has written more plays, (yes, she's even a playwright). He says he attended the play called "Parts of a Hole" and recognized his character in that play. "Parts of a Hole" is the name of the storyline from DD2 9-15. DD says "I'm glad you've found your place, Maya."

pages 19-22: Ends with Maya talking to us the audience again, telling us basically that she's finally found where she belongs: as a storyteller to us. Maybe, at least symbolically, this is somewhat like one of her plays/dance routines.

The End.

References: In the scenes at the reservation, and in the woods, I should note that Maya was wearing short sleeve shirts, and shorts in the woods. Logan was walking through the woods without a shirt on. I get the feeling it wasn't that cold outside.

In the scene in issue #55, where Maya talks to Matt on the rooftop, she's wearing a fur coat, and we see leaves fluttering by...a possible sign of Autumn...

Also, as has been mentioned, 1 year passes between DD#50 and DD#56...(which resumes the Brian Michael Bendis storyline). I'll give details of that issue in a week or two, after it comes out, to help clarify what's going on in DD's title...

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology Review for Daredevil #51-55, for the calender...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 11, 2004 at 22:02:50:
In Reply to: Chronology Review for Daredevil #51-55, for the calender... 
posted by Kevin on January 11, 2004 at 20:52:06:

Thanks, Kevin. This is very helpful. I'll include only those sections that relate to current continuity, and I'll let you know if I have questions as I add these issues to the calendar. BTW, that crescent moon you mentioned was waning, but of course there's also a full moon shown that night. Sheesh, these guys can't even maintain continuity for a single night...

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Chronology Review for Daredevil #51-55, for the calender...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 12, 2004 at 05:13:27:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology Review for Daredevil #51-55, for the calender... 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 11, 2004 at 22:02:50:

Fortunately, this being David Mack, it's fairly easy to disregard anything that causes problems - the whole story is a highly subjective version of events from Echo's point of view. (And for a chunk of the story, she's hallucinating anyway.)

			*	*	*

Eric the red
Posted by David Hall on January 11, 2004 at 21:27:56:

The numbering sytem for Eric the Red is off.
Cyclops was Eric the Red I
Eric the Red II was a Shi'ar agent named Davan Shakari

Magneto was Eric the Red III (not II)

David Hall 

			*	*	*

Re: Eric the red
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 12, 2004 at 08:18:05:
In Reply to: Eric the red 
posted by David Hall on January 11, 2004 at 21:27:56:

> The numbering sytem for Eric the Red is off.
> Cyclops was Eric the Red I
> Eric the Red II was a Shi'ar agent named Davan Shakari

> Magneto was Eric the Red III (not II)

I may be mistaken here, but wasn't Cyclops "Eric the Red", and Davan "Erik the Red"? Or vice versa? 

			*	*	*

Re: Eric the red
Posted by Peter Fabricius on January 12, 2004 at 14:33:11:
In Reply to: Re: Eric the red 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 12, 2004 at 08:18:05:

> > The numbering sytem for Eric the Red is off.
> > Cyclops was Eric the Red I
> > Eric the Red II was a Shi'ar agent named Davan Shakari

> > Magneto was Eric the Red III (not II)

> I may be mistaken here, but wasn't Cyclops "Eric the Red", and Davan "Erik the Red"? Or vice versa?

Vice versa.
Cyclops = Erik the Red
Davan = Eric the Red 

			*	*	*

Re: Eric the red
Posted by David Hall on January 13, 2004 at 18:57:39:
In Reply to: Re: Eric the red 
posted by Peter Fabricius on January 12, 2004 at 14:33:11:

True, but as the armor is the same, and the character's purpose (to keep the other characters and sometimes the reader in the dark about Erik/Eric's identity until the surprise reveal) is the same, I would not let the difference between a c or k mess up the numbering system. (Others may have different opinions about this...)

David


> > > The numbering sytem for Eric the Red is off.
> > > Cyclops was Eric the Red I
> > > Eric the Red II was a Shi'ar agent named Davan Shakari

> > > Magneto was Eric the Red III (not II)

> > I may be mistaken here, but wasn't Cyclops "Eric the Red", and Davan "Erik the Red"? Or vice versa?

> Vice versa.
> Cyclops = Erik the Red
> Davan = Eric the Red

			*	*	*

Re: Eric the red
Posted by Peter Fabricius on January 14, 2004 at 02:00:49:
In Reply to: Re: Eric the red 
posted by David Hall on January 13, 2004 at 18:57:39:

> True, but as the armor is the same, and the character's purpose (to keep the other characters and sometimes the reader in the dark about Erik/Eric's identity until the surprise reveal) is the same, I would not let the difference between a c or k mess up the numbering system. (Others may have different opinions about this...)

> David

I do agree with you. The spelling difference is trivial, and should not matter, so long as we spell the individual characters names correctly.
I have always wondered if it was a mistake that led to Davan's alias being spelled differently from Cyclops'

Peter 

			*	*	*

Re: Eric the red
Posted by David Hall on January 14, 2004 at 18:04:38:
In Reply to: Re: Eric the red 
posted by Peter Fabricius on January 14, 2004 at 02:00:49:

I have always wondered if it was due to a lack of research.

Dave

			*	*	*

X-Treme X-Men
Posted by Ethain on January 12, 2004 at 14:07:05:

Just two questions:

Is it correct to put X-Treme X-Men Savage Land LS between 6 and 7 of the XX series?

Where should I put chronologically XX Annual 2001?

			*	*	*

Re: X-Treme X-Men
Posted by Jeph! on January 12, 2004 at 15:22:49:
In Reply to: X-Treme X-Men 
posted by Ethain on January 12, 2004 at 14:07:05:

> Is it correct to put X-Treme X-Men Savage Land LS between 6 and 7 of the XX series?

I have it between #4-5 -- if I remember right, #5-9 are one long story arc.

> Where should I put chronologically XX Annual 2001?

Between #9-10.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

WONDER MAN...WORD...YANDROTH
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 12, 2004 at 15:51:42:

new entries marked **


WONDER MAN/SIMON WILLIAMS

AWC 55
**ASPOT 29/2 (19p1, 20p2, 20p4, 20p5)
AWC 56

. . .similarly re ASPOT 29/2

. . . HAWKEYE/CLINT BARTON
. . . AWC 55
. . . **ASPOT 29/2 (20p2)
. . . BK2 1

. . . THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM
. . . FF 336
. . . ASPOT 29 *** should read ASPOT 29/2 (19p1)
. . . H2 365

. . . VISION
. . . AWC 55
. . . A@ 19/3-FB
. . . AWC 55
. . . ASPOT 29/2 *** This entry is currently showing as following AWC 56 and AWC 15/4; as this is the Acts of Vengeance epilogue and AWC 56 is clearly after the vengeance arc I feel this is a better placement. 
. . . AWC 56
. . . AWC@ 5/4
. . . A@ 19/3

. . . QUASAR III/WENDELL ELVIS VAUGHAN
. . . Q 6
. . . Q 7
. . . A@ 19/3-FB
. . . AWC 54
. . . ASPOT 29/2 *** This entry is currently showing as before Q 7. Again, as the Acts of Vengeance epilogue I feel it fits better after AWC 54 
. . . Q 8


WORD

**S-H 9
S-H 10


YANDROTH

**ST 164
**ST 165/2
**ST 166
**ST 167/2
ST 168


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#148

			*	*	*

UX 335 Wolverine
Posted by David Hall on January 13, 2004 at 19:52:55:

Wolverine appears in UX 335

UX 334
X 54
O:X
**UX 335
W2 104
W2 105
O:MU-FB

			*	*	*

Scorpion in ALIAS 23-FB
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 13, 2004 at 21:36:21:

I managed to pick up some issues of Alias in a comic store bargain bin, and I have a question about the Scorpion's appearance in the flashback in issue #23.

This flashback occurs while Peter Parker is still in high school -- Jessica Jones is a classmate of Peter's and we see them both in school on the day she learns that she has the power to fly; the first time she flies, she ends up getting dunked in the water off Manhattan and Thor rescues her. When she tries to fly a second time, she ends up landing on top of the Scorpion, who is robbing a laundromat. Before he gets stomped, Scorpion states "Hey!! You know who I am? You know? I gotta get outta town or I wouldn't even be slumming with this $#!+!!" After Jessica lands on him, the Scorpion is out cold. We don't know if he revives and flees before the cops arrive.

Mac Gargan becomes the Scorpion in ASM 20 and at the end of that issue, he is defeated by Spider-Man. He breaks out of prison in ASM 29. The prison break occurs after Peter Parker's graduation from high school in ASM 28.

So the only apparent opportunity for the Scorpion to appear in Alias 23-FB while Peter Parker is still in high school would be sometime during ASM 20. Question: *can* the Scorpion make this flashback appearance between scenes in ASM 20?

Two other things to consider:
1) In the flashback, the Scorpion is wearing goggles that he doesn't wear in ASM 20.
2) In the scene in Midtown High in Alias 23-FB, we see a banner in the hallway that reads "Flash thompson for Class President." However, by the time ASM 20 occurs, it's late in the school year (April), and we might explain the banner a number of ways.

Or...
Perhaps the Scorpion escaped custody shortly after his defeat in ASM 20 and was recaptured, thanks to Jessica.

Or, one other approach...
We could divide the flashback into two parts, with the first taking place early in Peter Parker's senior year of high school (did Flash run for class president in an early issue of ASM?) -- this is the part in which Jessica learns she can fly and is rescued by Thor. The second part would be the second attempt at flying, with Scorpion making an appearance. Could this happen months after Jessica discovered she could fly? Would there be any logical reason for her not to attempt to fly again for so long after her discovery?

All I know about ASM 20 is in the synposis in the Official Marvel Index to the Amazing Spider-Man. So if someone with more familiarity with the story can chime in and offer some ideas, I'd appreciate it.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Scorpion in Amazing Spider-Man #20
Posted by Dimadick on January 14, 2004 at 03:58:10:
In Reply to: Scorpion in ALIAS 23-FB 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 13, 2004 at 21:36:21:


> All I know about ASM 20 is in the synposis in the Official Marvel Index to the Amazing Spider-Man. So if someone with more familiarity with the story can chime in and offer some ideas, I'd appreciate it.

There is a detailed summary and review of this issue in spider.fan:http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/reviews/spiderman_amazing.20.html

Al Sjoerdsma has been adding detailed summaries of Spidey's appearances between August, 1962 and March, 1965. See if they can be useful.

#20 is the January, 1965 issue. According to Al's notes ,Gargan is mutated into the Scorpion during a Saturday and while Peter Parker is at the airport with Betty Brant. She is there to see her boyfriend Ned Leeds take his flight to Europe where he is assigned for six months. He returns in Amazing Spider-Man #29(October, 1965). Peter is there to ask Betty if she is interested in dating other guys.

The first fight between Spidey and "Scorpey"(as he nick-names him) occures during the late evening or night of that same day. Scorpion easily defeats Spidey, leaves him unconscious and proceeds in robbing "Carter's Jewelry Store". He then seems to dissapear. Dr. Farley Stillwell finds him wandering in Manhattan a while later. Could Scorpey's encounter with Jessica happen between his robbery of the Jewelry Store and Stillwell's success in locating him? 

			*	*	*

Re: Scorpion in Amazing Spider-Man #20
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 14, 2004 at 07:22:47:
In Reply to: Scorpion in Amazing Spider-Man #20 
posted by Dimadick on January 14, 2004 at 03:58:10:

> 
> > All I know about ASM 20 is in the synposis in the Official Marvel Index to the Amazing Spider-Man. So if someone with more familiarity with the story can chime in and offer some ideas, I'd appreciate it.

> There is a detailed summary and review of this issue in spider.fan:http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/reviews/spiderman_amazing.20.html

> Al Sjoerdsma has been adding detailed summaries of Spidey's appearances between August, 1962 and March, 1965. See if they can be useful.

> #20 is the January, 1965 issue. According to Al's notes ,Gargan is mutated into the Scorpion during a Saturday and while Peter Parker is at the airport with Betty Brant. She is there to see her boyfriend Ned Leeds take his flight to Europe where he is assigned for six months. He returns in Amazing Spider-Man #29(October, 1965). Peter is there to ask Betty if she is interested in dating other guys.

> The first fight between Spidey and "Scorpey"(as he nick-names him) occures during the late evening or night of that same day. Scorpion easily defeats Spidey, leaves him unconscious and proceeds in robbing "Carter's Jewelry Store". He then seems to dissapear. Dr. Farley Stillwell finds him wandering in Manhattan a while later. Could Scorpey's encounter with Jessica happen between his robbery of the Jewelry Store and Stillwell's success in locating him?

Maybe, if Stillwell doesn't find Scorpion until the next day -- the scene with Jessica "dropping in" on Scorpion is clearly during the day. But why would Gargan be anxious to leave town in the Alias flashback? Why would he be ripping off a laundromat when he just knocked off a jewelry store? And where did those goggles comes from, and disappear to?

Continuity glitches...ugh.

Maybe the explanation that he escaped custody after his defeat by Spidey at the end of ASM 20 works better. That would at least explain his anxiety to leave town and desperation in robbing a laundromat. Still, those goggles...

--Paul B.

			*	*	*

"When Temporal References Clash!" starring Jessica Jones
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 13, 2004 at 22:17:39:

This topic was raised a while back when we were discussing Alias, but I thought I'd offer it up again for clarification and resolution.

Follow this sequence of events:

1) Jessica Jones has a one-night stand with Luke Cage. This is mentioned in the recap page of ALIAS 15, so must occur before that point (#14?).

2) ALIAS 15 (1-9) occurs on the same day as DD2 36 (5-13), as they share the same scene.

3) DD2 36 occurs before DD2 38.

4) DD2 38 occurs on "July 19" according to a reference in DD2 39.

So Jessica and Luke have sex before July 19.

Now follow this sequence of events...

1) IM3 62-63 occurs during the Christmas season, as we see holiday shopping, a store Santa, Christmas trees, and snow.

2) IM3 63 occurs before IM3 64.

3) IM3 64 leads directly into A3 63, in which we see Ant-Man and She-Hulk in old costumes.

4) ALIAS 28 occurs after A3 63, as it features She-Hulk and Ant-Man in their new costumes.

5) In ALIAS 28, Jessica notes that she is "three months pregant" with Luke's child.

So Jessica and Luke had sex less than three months before the Christmas season (September or later).

So which is it, before July 19 or after September? Or did Jessica and Luke end up getting intimate more than once?

The PULSE may provide more answers -- e.g. if Luke says, "But we only did it the one time..." or some such, we'll have to discount one of the conflicting calendar references. However, given the characters of Jessica and Luke, it wouldn't surprise me if they ended up together again, even while Jessica was dating Scott Lang. You know how she is when she gets drunk, and Luke, well...

The July 19 reference is weaker than the Christmas reference, and don't forget, we do have to accommodate those "hundred days" between T2 51 and T2 53 in the Asgard-over-Manhattan storyline. This opens up the possibility of moving Daredevil's whole storyline from DD2 26 through DD2 50 forward on the calendar, and that ties into the recent discussion about the Punisher's chronology, not to mention projecting the year gap between DD2 50 and 56 further into the future. Not only that, but we must consider the tie-in between ALIAS 17 and CA4 3 (which presumably occurred on the fourth of July, a reference I've already had to call topical and re-label Labor Day -- hmmm...Columbus Day anyone?), etc., etc.

So...do we need to consider another calendar re-haul here? (See, Jeph, another chance to reboot...) Any warnings before I (wince) try this? Wait until the PULSE comes out and postpone (again) the calendar unveiling? Ugh.

--Paul B.

			*	*	*

Re: "When Temporal References Clash!" starring Jessica Jones
Posted by Kevin on January 14, 2004 at 01:49:41:
In Reply to: "When Temporal References Clash!" starring Jessica Jones 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 13, 2004 at 22:17:39:


> The July 19 reference is weaker than the Christmas reference, and don't forget, we do have to accommodate those "hundred days" between T2 51 and T2 53 in the Asgard-over-Manhattan storyline. This opens up the possibility of moving Daredevil's whole storyline from DD2 26 through DD2 50 forward on the calendar, and that ties into the recent discussion about the Punisher's chronology, not to mention projecting the year gap between DD2 50 and 56 further into the future. Not only that, but we must consider the tie-in between ALIAS 17 and CA4 3 (which presumably occurred on the fourth of July, a reference I've already had to call topical and re-label Labor Day -- hmmm...Columbus Day anyone?), etc., etc.

Now why is the July 19th reference weaker than the Christmas references? There will ALWAYS be Christmas references...every year, at least ONE Marvel title has a Christmas issue....I tend to look at actual calender dates given, (like July 19th) as the strongest temporal references for calender placement...

That's why I'm still upset that you moved the July 4th reference in CAP4 #4 to later on down the calender...those are the types of references you should strive to keep! Stuff like that should probably override "It appears to be somewhat chilly outside" and "full moon references" if possible, in my opinion... ;-)

Just my two cents...

Sorry, maybe I'm just keen on fighting for my DD references... ;-)


> So...do we need to consider another calendar re-haul here? (See, Jeph, another chance to reboot...) Any warnings before I (wince) try this? Wait until the PULSE comes out and postpone (again) the calendar unveiling? Ugh.

> --Paul B.


I've got a preview of "The Pulse #1"...(the first 11 pages anyway)...Jessica reveals to J. Jonah Jameson, (whom she's hired by) that she's pregnant.

Jameson asks, "Is it Luke Cage's"? 

She says, "I'm sorry?"

He replies, "Is it Luke Cage's? You've been seen around town with him?"

She says, "It is. Yeah."

I get the feeling from other words spoken in this preview that her and Luke are somewhat of a couple...

Jameson says, "Two urban super heroes having a baby...it's nice."

So read into that what you will, but if they're a couple, then I'm willing to bet they're 'getting it on' more than once...

			*	*	*

Re: "When Temporal References Clash!" starring Jessica Jones
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 14, 2004 at 07:11:07:
In Reply to: Re: "When Temporal References Clash!" starring Jessica Jones 
posted by Kevin on January 14, 2004 at 01:49:41:

> 
> > The July 19 reference is weaker than the Christmas reference, and don't forget, we do have to accommodate those "hundred days" between T2 51 and T2 53 in the Asgard-over-Manhattan storyline. This opens up the possibility of moving Daredevil's whole storyline from DD2 26 through DD2 50 forward on the calendar, and that ties into the recent discussion about the Punisher's chronology, not to mention projecting the year gap between DD2 50 and 56 further into the future. Not only that, but we must consider the tie-in between ALIAS 17 and CA4 3 (which presumably occurred on the fourth of July, a reference I've already had to call topical and re-label Labor Day -- hmmm...Columbus Day anyone?), etc., etc.

> Now why is the July 19th reference weaker than the Christmas references? There will ALWAYS be Christmas references...every year, at least ONE Marvel title has a Christmas issue....I tend to look at actual calender dates given, (like July 19th) as the strongest temporal references for calender placement...

In DD2 39, the D.A. states, in reference to DD2 38, "On July 19, at around 11:44 pm, dressed as his alter ego, the White Tiger..." One statement by one character on one panel.

To me, that's easier to ignore than the many holiday references in two issues of IM3:

*"Santa!" exclaims one boy.
*Christmas trees shown in various locations.
*Rumiko remarking about Tony wearing a Santa hat.
*Rumiko and Tony doing holiday shopping.
*A mall Santa with his elves.
*Snow and bare trees.
*Rumiko: "I gave Santa a real challenge...a poinsettia that won't die after Christmas."
*Tony telling Rumiko what he wants for Christmas and Rumiko responsing "At least you didn't ask for something impossible...like peace on earth."
*Angela wishing Tony a "Merry Christmas."
*Christmas decorations at Haven.
*A news reporter making a reference to "the Grinch" stealing "the city's Christmas spirit."
*Someone referring to "the President's Christmas party."
*A Christmas Party at Stark Enterprises seen in both issues.
*Tony: "Who says there's no Santa?"
*Friday appearing in a Santa outfit.
*A reference to Tony being invited to the president's ranch "on Super Bowl Sunday."
*The narration in IM3 63 stating, "It's almost Christmas" and "Rumiko is being a complete Scrooge."
*Angela and Rumiko disciss Christmas presents.
*Someone saying he "ain't been able to hardly move my fingers [from the cold] since October."

Quite difficult to ignore all these references. So yes, the Christmas placement of IM3 62-63 is stronger than the "July 19" placement of DD2 38.

HOWEVER, I would like to KEEP both references. It all hinges on Jessica and Luke -- one-night stand or occasional flings (or at least ONE other liaison).


> That's why I'm still upset that you moved the July 4th reference in CAP4 #4 to later on down the calender...those are the types of references you should strive to keep! Stuff like that should probably override "It appears to be somewhat chilly outside" and "full moon references" if possible, in my opinion... ;-)

I'm sorry you're upset about that. But I don't think I argued against a July 4 placement of CA4 4 based on temperature and lunar phase references. Those are weaker references than the July 4 references in CA4 4. Placement had everything to do with the sequence of events in DD2 and ALIAS and Cap's chronology vis-a-vis Avengers events.


> 
> > So...do we need to consider another calendar re-haul here? (See, Jeph, another chance to reboot...) Any warnings before I (wince) try this? Wait until the PULSE comes out and postpone (again) the calendar unveiling? Ugh.

> 
> I've got a preview of "The Pulse #1"...(the first 11 pages anyway)...Jessica reveals to J. Jonah Jameson, (whom she's hired by) that she's pregnant.

> Jameson asks, "Is it Luke Cage's"? 

> She says, "I'm sorry?"

> He replies, "Is it Luke Cage's? You've been seen around town with him?"

> She says, "It is. Yeah."

> I get the feeling from other words spoken in this preview that her and Luke are somewhat of a couple...

> Jameson says, "Two urban super heroes having a baby...it's nice."

> So read into that what you will, but if they're a couple, then I'm willing to bet they're 'getting it on' more than once...

I sure hope so, not just for their sakes. Can anyone hop on board and support this theory about multiple liaisons between Luke and Jessica?

--Paul B.

			*	*	*

Re: "When Temporal References Clash!" starring Jessica Jones
Posted by Kevin on January 14, 2004 at 08:51:11:
In Reply to: Re: "When Temporal References Clash!" starring Jessica Jones 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 14, 2004 at 07:11:07:

> > 
> > > The July 19 reference is weaker than the Christmas reference, and don't forget, we do have to accommodate those "hundred days" between T2 51 and T2 53 in the Asgard-over-Manhattan storyline. This opens up the possibility of moving Daredevil's whole storyline from DD2 26 through DD2 50 forward on the calendar, and that ties into the recent discussion about the Punisher's chronology, not to mention projecting the year gap between DD2 50 and 56 further into the future. Not only that, but we must consider the tie-in between ALIAS 17 and CA4 3 (which presumably occurred on the fourth of July, a reference I've already had to call topical and re-label Labor Day -- hmmm...Columbus Day anyone?), etc., etc.

> > Now why is the July 19th reference weaker than the Christmas references? There will ALWAYS be Christmas references...every year, at least ONE Marvel title has a Christmas issue....I tend to look at actual calender dates given, (like July 19th) as the strongest temporal references for calender placement...

> In DD2 39, the D.A. states, in reference to DD2 38, "On July 19, at around 11:44 pm, dressed as his alter ego, the White Tiger..." One statement by one character on one panel.

> To me, that's easier to ignore than the many holiday references in two issues of IM3:

> *"Santa!" exclaims one boy.
> *Christmas trees shown in various locations.
> *Rumiko remarking about Tony wearing a Santa hat.
> *Rumiko and Tony doing holiday shopping.
> *A mall Santa with his elves.
> *Snow and bare trees.
> *Rumiko: "I gave Santa a real challenge...a poinsettia that won't die after Christmas."
> *Tony telling Rumiko what he wants for Christmas and Rumiko responsing "At least you didn't ask for something impossible...like peace on earth."
> *Angela wishing Tony a "Merry Christmas."
> *Christmas decorations at Haven.
> *A news reporter making a reference to "the Grinch" stealing "the city's Christmas spirit."
> *Someone referring to "the President's Christmas party."
> *A Christmas Party at Stark Enterprises seen in both issues.
> *Tony: "Who says there's no Santa?"
> *Friday appearing in a Santa outfit.
> *A reference to Tony being invited to the president's ranch "on Super Bowl Sunday."
> *The narration in IM3 63 stating, "It's almost Christmas" and "Rumiko is being a complete Scrooge."
> *Angela and Rumiko disciss Christmas presents.
> *Someone saying he "ain't been able to hardly move my fingers [from the cold] since October."

> Quite difficult to ignore all these references. So yes, the Christmas placement of IM3 62-63 is stronger than the "July 19" placement of DD2 38.

> HOWEVER, I would like to KEEP both references. It all hinges on Jessica and Luke -- one-night stand or occasional flings (or at least ONE other liaison).

Yes, it has more references, because they're CHRISTMAS issues! All's I'm saying is, you're going to encounter those every year in the real world...when in fact, the Marvel universe is occuring at a much slower rate...weren't you mentioning in a post a while back that you may have to overlook a Christmas issue in an issue of Xmen? 

Still, if we could keep both references, all the better...

> 
> > That's why I'm still upset that you moved the July 4th reference in CAP4 #4 to later on down the calender...those are the types of references you should strive to keep! Stuff like that should probably override "It appears to be somewhat chilly outside" and "full moon references" if possible, in my opinion... ;-)

> I'm sorry you're upset about that. But I don't think I argued against a July 4 placement of CA4 4 based on temperature and lunar phase references. Those are weaker references than the July 4 references in CA4 4. Placement had everything to do with the sequence of events in DD2 and ALIAS and Cap's chronology vis-a-vis Avengers events.

'Upset' is actually too strong of a word, Paul...I participate in your calender because I think it's fun. But it's not going to cause me to loose sleep, so sorry if I made that sound too strong...also, my pointing out the "moon phases" and so on was actually flawed, because you're right: in the end, it's the character chronologies that take precedent...

Part of me just feels 'the missing link' is still out there, and we could make that July 4th reference work. ;-)


> 
> > 
> > > So...do we need to consider another calendar re-haul here? (See, Jeph, another chance to reboot...) Any warnings before I (wince) try this? Wait until the PULSE comes out and postpone (again) the calendar unveiling? Ugh.

> > 
> > I've got a preview of "The Pulse #1"...(the first 11 pages anyway)...Jessica reveals to J. Jonah Jameson, (whom she's hired by) that she's pregnant.

> > Jameson asks, "Is it Luke Cage's"? 

> > She says, "I'm sorry?"

> > He replies, "Is it Luke Cage's? You've been seen around town with him?"

> > She says, "It is. Yeah."

> > I get the feeling from other words spoken in this preview that her and Luke are somewhat of a couple...

> > Jameson says, "Two urban super heroes having a baby...it's nice."

> > So read into that what you will, but if they're a couple, then I'm willing to bet they're 'getting it on' more than once...

> I sure hope so, not just for their sakes. Can anyone hop on board and support this theory about multiple liaisons between Luke and Jessica?

> --Paul B.


Maybe the rest of "Pulse #1" has more clues...alls I read was the first 11 pages...

			*	*	*

Re: "When Temporal References Clash!" starring Jessica Jones
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 14, 2004 at 21:54:52:
In Reply to: Re: "When Temporal References Clash!" starring Jessica Jones 
posted by Kevin on January 14, 2004 at 08:51:11:

>> Yes, it has more references, because they're CHRISTMAS issues! All's I'm saying is, you're going to encounter those every year in the real world...when in fact, the Marvel universe is occuring at a much slower rate...weren't you mentioning in a post a while back that you may have to overlook a Christmas issue in an issue of Xmen? 

Yes, indeed. But in the big scheme of things the timing is working out right for a Christmas placement of IM3 62-63, so that's an opportunity for a non-topical Christmas I can't pass up.


> Still, if we could keep both references, all the better...

Agreed.

>> Maybe the rest of "Pulse #1" has more clues...alls I read was the first 11 pages...

At least I hope nothing in PULSE makes us draw the conclusion that Jessica and Luke had a one-night stand and that was the end of it.

Nothing is changing until we're faced with that evidence. I'm just too busy! But if someone wants to argue for the one-night stand, by all means do.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: "When Temporal References Clash!" starring Jessica Jones
Posted by Antonio Gavio on January 15, 2004 at 20:38:42:
In Reply to: Re: "When Temporal References Clash!" starring Jessica Jones 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 14, 2004 at 21:54:52:

> >> Yes, it has more references, because they're CHRISTMAS issues! All's I'm saying is, you're going to encounter those every year in the real world...when in fact, the Marvel universe is occuring at a much slower rate...weren't you mentioning in a post a while back that you may have to overlook a Christmas issue in an issue of Xmen? 

> Yes, indeed. But in the big scheme of things the timing is working out right for a Christmas placement of IM3 62-63, so that's an opportunity for a non-topical Christmas I can't pass up.

> 
> > Still, if we could keep both references, all the better...

> Agreed.

> >> Maybe the rest of "Pulse #1" has more clues...alls I read was the first 11 pages...

> At least I hope nothing in PULSE makes us draw the conclusion that Jessica and Luke had a one-night stand and that was the end of it.

> Nothing is changing until we're faced with that evidence. I'm just too busy! But if someone wants to argue for the one-night stand, by all means do.

There's another issue later on where Jessica ends up in Luke's bed, although he claims nothing happened and she just doesn't remember anything. I don't remember the issue number right now though.
By the way I agree with Kevin on thinking that we can make the reference of July 4th work.

Antonio

			*	*	*

Re: "When Temporal References Clash!" starring Jessica Jones
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 15, 2004 at 21:20:31:
In Reply to: Re: "When Temporal References Clash!" starring Jessica Jones 
posted by Antonio Gavio on January 15, 2004 at 20:38:42:

> There's another issue later on where Jessica ends up in Luke's bed, although he claims nothing happened and she just doesn't remember anything. I don't remember the issue number right now though.

Hmm. Could this have been in issue #21 or #22 (issues I'm missing)?


> By the way I agree with Kevin on thinking that we can make the reference of July 4th work.

Well, rolling back Cap will automatically roll back Alias, Daredevil, and Avengers, at least. But if you have an idea about how that can work, please let me know. (I'm guessing you have a theory regarding Spidey's placement in ALIAS 15.) Thanks, Antonio.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Jessica Jones and Luke Cage
Posted by Andy Holcombe on January 19, 2004 at 17:39:27:
In Reply to: Re: "When Temporal References Clash!" starring Jessica Jones 
posted by Kevin on January 14, 2004 at 01:49:41:

> So read into that what you will, but if they're a couple, then I'm willing to bet they're 'getting it on' more than once...

Since I don't have ready access to Alias #28, or most of my comics for that matter, you should probably take this for what it's worth. As I remember it, Jessica Jones and Luke Cage didn't become a couple until the end of Alias #28, after she broke up with Ant-man. So the preview doesn't really help us decide if they had a sexual encounter between Alias #1 and after Alias #28.

			*	*	*

Absorbing Man -- two places at once
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 15, 2004 at 07:25:50:

Remember when we were trying to reconcile the Absorbing Man's appearances in T2 55-56, where he's helping Thor, and in H3 55-59, where he's locked up?

Well, according to CM6 18, the Absorbing Man is actually in both places at the same time -- the result of rifts in the space/time continuum that Captain Marvel created when he reconstructed the universe in CM6 6. That should make Creel's chronology interesting.

--Paul B. 

			*	*	*

Re: Absorbing Man -- two places at once
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 15, 2004 at 08:26:27:
In Reply to: Absorbing Man -- two places at once 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 15, 2004 at 07:25:50:

> Well, according to CM6 18, the Absorbing Man is actually in both places at the same time -- the result of rifts in the space/time continuum that Captain Marvel created when he reconstructed the universe in CM6 6. That should make Creel's chronology interesting.

Hypertime! 

			*	*	*

Re: Absorbing Man -- two places at once
Posted by Administrator on January 15, 2004 at 18:15:08:
In Reply to: Absorbing Man -- two places at once 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 15, 2004 at 07:25:50:

> Well, according to CM6 18, the Absorbing Man is actually in both places at the same time -- the result of rifts in the space/time continuum that Captain Marvel created when he reconstructed the universe in CM6 6. That should make Creel's chronology interesting.

I think Peter's doing this *just* to see our response.

			*	*	*

Re: Absorbing Man -- two places at once
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 15, 2004 at 18:26:19:
In Reply to: Re: Absorbing Man -- two places at once 
posted by Administrator on January 15, 2004 at 18:15:08:

> I think Peter's doing this *just* to see our response.

Practically speaking, the series doesn't establish that the two Absorbing Men ever joined together again.

Since the HULK version of the character bears absolutely no resemblance to any other version beyond the most superficial aspects of character design and (some) powers, I would be inclined to give him a separate listing as an alternate-reality Absorbing Man. 

			*	*	*

Hey those in the know when did Luke Cage learn...Daredevil V2 #56 spoilers
Posted by Zevad on January 15, 2004 at 17:52:52:

When did Luke Cage learn Peter Parker is Spider-Man? I read a preview copy of next week's comics and DD #56 is among them. Peter Parker, Reed Richards, Dr. Strange, and Luke Cage confront Matt about his current status of "Kingpin of Hell's Kitchen." And from what I can gather Luke and and the rest are in the know Spidey is Peter Parker...I know Dr. Strange knows, Reed Richards probably figured it out a long time but kept it to himself in respect of Spidey's identity...but for the life of me I don't know of any comic where Luke finds out Peter is Spidey...and Luke and Spider-Man are not close enough that Peter would trust him with his identity. Did this happen in some obscure comic from the 1980's or 1990's or my guess Bendis fumbled and this revelation is brand new and we just found out that issue Luke knows Peter is Spidey and this must have happend off panel...I hate retcons like that...but am I wrong this didn't happen off panel and there is a comic where Peter tells Luke or Luke accidently finds out and promises to keep quiet?? HELP!!!! 

			*	*	*

Edward Buckman
Posted by David Hall on January 15, 2004 at 18:41:13:

Some apps seem to be missing from his chronology:

BUCKMAN, EDWARD
X:HC 4-FB
** PM @1 - BTS 
** UX 96 - BTS
** UX 97 (Only his arm is seen)
**CX 6
**CX 7
**CX 7/2 (dies in this story)

There are probably some others, but this is what I recall without doing more research.

David Hall 

			*	*	*

Re: Edward Buckman/ White King
Posted by David Hall on January 18, 2004 at 07:36:16:
In Reply to: Edward Buckman 
posted by David Hall on January 15, 2004 at 18:41:13:

I just noticed that he is listed under "White King" as
WHITE KING
UX 100-FB
P-M@ 1
UX 96-BTS
CX 4-BTS
UX 97
CX 6/2-BTS
UX 98-BTS
CX 6
UX 98-BTS
UX 99-BTS
CX 7/2
UX 100-BTS

This is the same character, so thier listings should be consolidated.

David

			*	*	*

Magneto 1
Posted by David Hall on January 15, 2004 at 20:15:21:

Some characters who are in Magneto 1, but did not make it into the MCP:

Orator (has no MCP listing)
**Magneto 1
**Magneto 2 (issue not in MCP yet, in second gap)

Kleinstock, Sven
XM 44
**Magneto 1
**Magneto 2(issue not in MCP yet, in second gap)
**Magneto 4(issue not in MCP yet, in second gap)
QS 1

Kleinstock, Harlan
XM 44
**Magneto 1
**Magneto 2(issue not in MCP yet, in second gap)
**Magneto 4(issue not in MCP yet, in second gap)
QS 1

Armstrong, Colonel Julian (has no MCP listing)
**Magneto 1
**Magneto 2 (issue not in MCP yet, in second gap)

David

			*	*	*

Trask, Simon
Posted by David Hall on January 15, 2004 at 20:26:44:

Here are some apps that are missing from Simon Trask's listing.

TRASK, SIMON (He is the same character as the unnamed Trask in UX @95 so thier listings should be combined.)

**UX @95
**X-Men Unlimited 11
MAGNETO 1
**Magneto 2 (Issue not in MCP yet, in 2nd Gap)
**Magneto 3 (Issue not in MCP yet, in 2nd Gap)
**Magneto 4 (Issue not in MCP yet, in 2nd Gap)
**UX @ 96 (Issue not in MCP yet, in 2nd Gap)
PUN3 12-FB
PUN3 15
PUN3 16
PUN3 17-FB

			*	*	*

Re: Trask, Simon
Posted by David Hall on January 17, 2004 at 12:14:51:
In Reply to: Trask, Simon 
posted by David Hall on January 15, 2004 at 20:26:44:

Oops, we need to take UX '96 out of this, the shadowy figure in that one is Bastion, not Trask.

So:
Simon Trask

			*	*	*

YELLOW CLAW ROBOT...ZARATHOS...BARON HEINRICH ZEMO
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 16, 2004 at 17:26:24:

new entries marked **


YELLOW CLAW ROBOT

ST 165
**ST 166/2
**ST 167


ZARATHOS

BFF:S 3
**GR2 76
GR2 80
GR2 81
ASM 274


ZEMO/BARON HEINRICH ZEMO

CA 357/2-BTS
**CA 362 his corpse (14p5), which Helmut tells us he exhumed (19p1)
A 353


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#149

			*	*	*

Placement of Cap in TRUTH
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 16, 2004 at 20:21:52:

I'm not sure we ever resolved the placement of Captain America in the present-day portions of TRUTH, but in issue #7, Cap states, "I just got a fortune in back pay for all the years I was in suspended animation." That's our clue. Now I know I read the story in which Cap received that back pay, but for the life of me, I can't remember what issue that was. Can ayone help?

--Paul B. 

			*	*	*

Re: Placement of Cap in TRUTH
Posted by Don Campbell on January 16, 2004 at 23:48:27:
In Reply to: Placement of Cap in TRUTH 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 16, 2004 at 20:21:52:

It was in CAPTAIN AMERICA #312 (December, 1985) that Steve Rogers received a check for almost one million dollars in back pay. He spent almost all of it setting up his national computer hotline.

Don Campbell 

			*	*	*

Re: Placement of Cap in TRUTH
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 17, 2004 at 12:53:41:
In Reply to: Re: Placement of Cap in TRUTH 
posted by Don Campbell on January 16, 2004 at 23:48:27:

> > I'm not sure we ever resolved the placement of Captain America in the present-day portions of TRUTH, but in issue #7, Cap states, "I just got a fortune in back pay for all the years I was in suspended animation." That's our clue. Now I know I read the story in which Cap received that back pay, but for the life of me, I can't remember what issue that was. Can anyone help?

> 
> It was in CAPTAIN AMERICA #312 (December, 1985) that Steve Rogers received a check for almost one million dollars in back pay. He spent almost all of it setting up his national computer hotline.

Thank you, Don. TRUTH #7 tells us what Cap did with the money he didn't spend on his hotline system. Apparently he had enough to buy a lot of stock in Koch International.

Is there any problem with placing TRUTH #5-7 shortly after CA 312, even though 17 1/2 years separate the publication dates? Any problem with a lot of time separating Isaiah Bradley's appearances in TRUTH and CREW?

--Paul

			*	*	*

Temporal references vs. Calendar references
Posted by Jeph! on January 16, 2004 at 20:58:35:

The debate continues, but I thought I'd toss this out in a new thread:

I think a large part of the "calendar placement" discussion is being muddied and confused, by the term "temporal references". One poster will attack it as a suspect chronology technique, and another will defend it by using examples ... and so on and son. But "temporal" covers many things -- and I think it's time that it got clearly defined.

For me, there are two different kinds of "temporal" references:

Actual TEMPORAL references, in-story references to the lenght of time passed since or in other stories. "A few weeks back", "Three days ago", or "the next day". That sort of thing. These are very valuable chronology tools in the short-term -- for example, if two issues of X-Men took place the day after one another, I wouldn't try to shove a Wolverine issue spanning three days in-between them. However, as the length of time passes, the references get more and more suspect -- after all, what does "a few months ago" really help with?

Then there's CALENDAR references -- full moons, seasons and weather patterns, dates in newspapers. THOSE, more than the time-has-passed temporal references, seem to be what's getting attacked as an inherently flawed chronology technique.

Unfortunately, it seems to me that Paul feels like BOTH types of references are being attacked, and in both attack and defense the two types are blurred and associated.

For the record, then:

I, personally, feel that temporal references are a fine chronology technique, especially when assembling tight periods of time (like my O:ZT map a while back, where I made heavy use of time and "about a week"-type captions).

However, I feel that using calendar references, at least right off the bat, is a little suspect. My preferred method right now is to organize a series of books into a fundamentally sound order, using footnotes, prevoius story references, and passing-time temporal clues -- and THEN apply the calendar references -- seeing what can be juggled around from the order composed without them, and what cannot.

In other words, I'm all for trying to include the calendar references -- but only once I've seen what the book order would look like without them.


Some random examples:

- the recent "Wolverine/Hulk" series by Sam Keith contains practically NO clues to its placement. The Hulk is stupid, Wolvie has adamantium claws -- that's about it. However, the series does contain a line where Wolvie says that it's been "twenty friggin' years" since Bruce Banner became the Hulk.

Now, Paul, if your current calendar said that it had only been 17 years since Hulk #1 ... would you feel the need to slot this series three years up the line? If not, why not? After all, to read it, it could really go anywhere, right?

And if you choose to interpret Logan's line as exaggeration, then what evidence would you use to place this book? Would its relative publication order come into play?

Example #2:

Paul, in your recent X-calendars, "New Mutants" v2 #1-3 have overlapped "New X-Men" #138-141. I'm assuming that this is to better facilitate the "May 23rd" date in NM2 #1 ... but really, given that the summer classes are ALREADY IN SESSION by the time of NM2 #2, and the school technically just closed the day of X #140, wouldn't these issues fit better into the gap between X #141-142? What evidence did you use to place them the way you currently have them? Did calendar placement have anything do with it? And by making my proposed change, which works better in terms of Xavier's school's semester flow, what calendar evidence would have to be ignored?

I have yet to create a perfect system for chronologizing -- however, I'm dreaming up some sort of system where each ongoing title is chalked separately on its own timeline, and those timelines can be overlaid on top of each other -- to periodically determine where they intersect, and how those intersections alter the individual series' timeline...

Some sort of columns system is the best way to represent this in text form, but it'd take a LOT of columns...

Anyway, I hope I've drawn a distinction between various types of "temporal" clues ... I'll be up for more of this talk after Sunday, when a big real-life project of mine comes to an end.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Temporal references vs. Calendar references
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 17, 2004 at 05:35:39:
In Reply to: Temporal references vs. Calendar references 
posted by Jeph! on January 16, 2004 at 20:58:35:

My problem with pure calendar references is that to take them literally seems to fly in the face of the way the Marvel Universe works.

The Marvel timeline can't be taken absolutely literally, if only because Spider-Man has been around for forty years and yet is plainly not in his late fifties.

Now, when you look at the 1960s stories, it seems bizarre to dismiss all of the references to contemporary politics, all of the clothes, topical references and so forth - and yet at the same time insist on adherence to a caption saying "June 17" when the writer could just as easily have chosen any other day in the year.

Of course, there are situations where the date has plainly not been chosen at random. Christmas stories, for example, which very obviously don't happen in June. Or the repeated references in recent X-Men stories to the summer vacation - the story clearly envisages that the school year has ended. In these cases, the calendar reference is a feature of the plot.

Equally, if you have two stories which claim explicitly to take place in midsummer, you don't really want to slot between them a story where Manhattan is covered in snow. This is simply a situation where that sequence would be completely incongruous.

I guess my position is that, given the amount of other topical material we inevitably have to dismiss, the significance of calendar references depends primarily on whether the date has any true significance in the context of the story - or, alternatively, whether it's just a date plucked out of the air so that the writer could include a dateline caption, with the actual date being irrelevant.

I see them having a useful role as tiebreakers, but broadly, I don't really see stories taking place on a particular date so much as in a particular sequence.

			*	*	*

Re: Temporal references vs. Calendar references
Posted by Jhaeman on January 19, 2004 at 14:52:19:
In Reply to: Re: Temporal references vs. Calendar references 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 17, 2004 at 05:35:39:

To sidestep the particular issue in controversy and digress considerably, I'm starting to think (after lurking here for a couple of years now) that much of the Chronology Project is becoming muddled with the Calendar Project, at least as it would appear to newcomers. Because the two projects have very different goals, methodologies, and outcomes (even though related in some degree), perhaps it would be possible to more clearly differentiate which of the two projects are being discussed in the subject headers, or perhaps even set up a linked but separate message board? 

			*	*	*

Chronology Project vs. Calendar Project
Posted by Jeph! on January 19, 2004 at 15:04:26:
In Reply to: Re: Temporal references vs. Calendar references 
posted by Jhaeman on January 19, 2004 at 14:52:19:

I'm starting to think the same as well. Although I enjoy helping out on both, and of course the eventual goal is for both of them to be identical, you're right -- they're both very intertwined on this board, almost to the point where some of our contributors probably think they ARE the same. And I feel like it's slowing us down a bit. I think clearly delineating the two projects is probably a very good idea...

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Temporal references vs. Calendar references
Posted by Administrator on January 19, 2004 at 17:20:18:
In Reply to: Re: Temporal references vs. Calendar references 
posted by Jhaeman on January 19, 2004 at 14:52:19:

> To sidestep the particular issue in controversy and digress considerably, I'm starting to think (after lurking here for a couple of years now) that much of the Chronology Project is becoming muddled with the Calendar Project, at least as it would appear to newcomers. Because the two projects have very different goals, methodologies, and outcomes (even though related in some degree), perhaps it would be possible to more clearly differentiate which of the two projects are being discussed in the subject headers, or perhaps even set up a linked but separate message board?

I think, for his part, Paul Bourcier does a pretty good job of indicating the calendar in his subject headers.

Some chronology-virgins might be confused, but it's probably not practical to ask everyone who posts to declare in the header whether they're talking about the calendar or the MCP.

I've resisted the temptation to split things up, because that requires people to keep up with two separate boards. I've been giving a lot of thought lately to going with another piece of software that would make splitting the boards pretty easy, and would give me a lot more protection against hacking, which continues to be a problem. But....it would be more expensive for me, and I haven't found one yet (like ikonboard, or ubbboard, or whatever) which provide threaded discussions, which goshdarnit, I really like.

Heads Up to the Board of Directors: we'll probably need to make a decision in the next three months on what format to use for the posting board. Be thinking about it.

			*	*	*

Re: Temporal references vs. Calendar references
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 19, 2004 at 17:49:12:
In Reply to: Re: Temporal references vs. Calendar references 
posted by Administrator on January 19, 2004 at 17:20:18:

Have you considered a Delphi forum? Fairly low maintenance. 

			*	*	*

Posting Board software
Posted by Administrator on January 19, 2004 at 19:48:41:
In Reply to: Re: Temporal references vs. Calendar references 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 19, 2004 at 17:49:12:

ehh. I'd want to host the forum on my own site.

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Re: Temporal references vs. Calendar references
Posted by Andy Holcombe on January 19, 2004 at 17:47:33:
In Reply to: Temporal references vs. Calendar references 
posted by Jeph! on January 16, 2004 at 20:58:35:

> In other words, I'm all for trying to include the calendar references -- but only once I've seen what the book order would look like without them.

Sounds like a plan to me. Work up a calendar around the chronology, rather than putting together a chronology around a calendar. Plus, with all of the Thunder Gods and universal resets floating around, who's to say what the weather is supposed to be or what phase the moon is supposed to be in.

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Hound in XF 123
Posted by David Hall on January 17, 2004 at 18:15:38:

Hound

X: Prime
**XF 122 - BTS (This should be changed to BTS in the MCP)
** XF 123
** uX '96 (issue not in MCp yet)

By the way, as it is revealed that Bastion is behind the Hound, in uX '96, bastion should probably get a BTS app. in X: Prime.

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The nature of BTS appearances
Posted by Jeph! on January 17, 2004 at 21:36:13:
In Reply to: Hound in XF 123 
posted by David Hall on January 17, 2004 at 18:15:38:

> By the way, as it is revealed that Bastion is behind the Hound, in uX '96, bastion should probably get a BTS app. in X: Prime.

Unless he's literally standing right behind the Hound in the single panel of the Hound in X:PRIME, no he shouldn't.

If a character appears who is working for or motivated by another character, the controlling character isn't necessarily "behind the scenes" -- unless we see shots of the first character talking to his boss on a cellphone, or something.

The way I understand it, a BTS appearance connotes when a character is clearly *there*, in the issue itself, except we can't see or hear them. A boulder mysteriously being pushed from atop a cliff -- that's a BTS for whoever pushed it. A character revealing in a later issue that "I was there all along, in the shadows, and I heard everything!" -- that's a BTS for him in that earlier issue.

But if the Hound was merely sent, by Bastion, to kill Mystique -- Bastion's orders are just the Hound's motivation, not an actual "appearance" of any sort by Bastion.

(Similarly, if we see a character cloaked in shadow, if we see a character's hand in frame, or if we hear a character's voice from off-panel -- that's not a BTS, that's a full-on appearance. If we manage to see or hear them at all, then they're not technically "*behind* the scenes".)

-Jeph! 

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Re: The nature of BTS appearances
Posted by David Hall on January 17, 2004 at 23:49:00:
In Reply to: The nature of BTS appearances 
posted by Jeph! on January 17, 2004 at 21:36:13:

Jeph, That is one type of BTS, yes and it is the most common. The other type that's often used is when someone off panel is the unseen motivating force behind another person's actions.....

Consider Mr. Sinister's chronology:
XF 38-FB-BTS
UX 215-FB-BTS
UX 223-FB-BTS
UX 215-FB-BTS
UX 210-BTS
UX 211-BTS
XF 10-BTS
UX 211-BTS
XF 10-BTS
PP 27-BTS
UX 212-BTS
T 374-BTS
UX 213-BTS
UX 214-BTS
UX 219-BTS

Now is Sinister in all of these issues?, no he is not in a single one. He appears BTS, only because his unseen actions of calling for The Mutant Massacre have big implications, and provide the motivating force behind it.

Now granted that's a much bigger example of the second type of BTS app. than the one we are talking about for Bastion. Still the Hound incident sets off a chain of events in X-factor, and it would not be unwarranted to consider this as an example of the second type of BTS.

David Hall

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Re: The nature of BTS appearances
Posted by Jeph! on January 18, 2004 at 15:01:34:
In Reply to: Re: The nature of BTS appearances 
posted by David Hall on January 17, 2004 at 23:49:00:

> Jeph, That is one type of BTS, yes and it is the most common. The other type that's often used is when someone off panel is the unseen motivating force behind another person's actions.....

Well, let me put it this way -- I heartily disagree with this usage of the term "BTS", and in my tenure here I'll be trying to have it discontinued or altered...

I mean, look at Magneto's chronology -- he's listed as BTS in CA #369-370, because he's the one who sealed the Red Skull inside a fallout shelter in #368. The rationale is, his actions in #368 have an impact on the story in #369-370...

But, seriously -- one character DID something in one issue, so he's BTS in other issues that deal with the fallout of his actions? How far can THAT be stretched?

If a villain breaks Cap's arm, is that villain BTS in all issues where Cap deals with having a broken arm? After all, it's that villain's actions that led to Cap's injury...

Is Mr. Sinister BTS in all issues where Gambit deals with the fallout of the Mutant Massacre? After all, it's his actions that led Gambit to brood this way...

Magneto is in no way, shape, or form "behind the scenes" in CA #369-370. He's not even "orchestrating the events", because he's DONE -- he sealed the Red Skull up and went away. How can his actions in the PAST be considered "BTS appearances" in LATER issues?

Similarly -- I don't understand how Sinister's order to wipe out the Morlocks carries over to every appearance of the Marauders wiping out the Morlocks. To me, it should only apply to the flashback where he actually *gives* the order...

-Jeph! 

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Re: The nature of BTS appearances
Posted by Administrator on January 18, 2004 at 16:49:58:
In Reply to: Re: The nature of BTS appearances 
posted by Jeph! on January 18, 2004 at 15:01:34:

> I mean, look at Magneto's chronology -- he's listed as BTS in CA #369-370, because he's the one who sealed the Red Skull inside a fallout shelter in #368. The rationale is, his actions in #368 have an impact on the story in #369-370...

I agree, the Magneto reference seems a little shaky.

> Is Mr. Sinister BTS in all issues where Gambit deals with the fallout of the Mutant Massacre? After all, it's his actions that led Gambit to brood this way...

> Similarly -- I don't understand how Sinister's order to wipe out the Morlocks carries over to every appearance of the Marauders wiping out the Morlocks. To me, it should only apply to the flashback where he actually *gives* the order...

Where a character is operating under the direct orders of someone else, I think it qualifies as a behind-the-scenes appearance. If Puppet Master is controlling the Thing, but we don't see Puppet Master, surely that would be a bts?

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Re: The nature of BTS appearances
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 18, 2004 at 17:54:47:
In Reply to: Re: The nature of BTS appearances 
posted by Administrator on January 18, 2004 at 16:49:58:

> Where a character is operating under the direct orders of someone else, I think it qualifies as a behind-the-scenes appearance. If Puppet Master is controlling the Thing, but we don't see Puppet Master, surely that would be a bts?

Not really a good example, because in that case the Puppet Master is actually directly controlling the Thing - he is acting, albeit off camera, and the direct effect of his actions is seen on camera. In that case, the Puppet Master is clearly behind the scenes as a direct actor in the storyline.

I think the situation we're dealing with here might best be described as agency - where one character charges another character with getting something done, and then leaves him to get on with it.

In some cases it's understandable why this counts as BTS. Suppose, for example, that you have a character who is very rarely seen on panel but acts directly through agents who appear regularly, on his behalf. It's awkward to omit from his chronology entire stories where he's clearly involved, simply because only his agents appear on camera.

More difficult is a situation where character X charges his henchmen with a task, which they then proceed to carry out for the next ten issues without further reference to him. It seems a little over the top to list X as behind the scenes in all of those issues - once he's given the orders, he plays no further part. 

If you list a character as BTS simply because an underling is present and acting in the course of his job, then surely we end up listing the Kingpin behind the scenes every single time one of the henchmen in his organisation turns up. It seems to me that that would go too far - equally, Tony Stark is not behind the scenes every time an employee of his company turns up.

In Sinister's case, if there actually is a flashback showing him giving the orders, I'm not sure there's a need to list him as BTS for every scene in the Morlock Massacre. In that case, we're just seeing knock-on effects of something that's actually been shown on panel. 

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Re: The nature of BTS appearances
Posted by Administrator on January 18, 2004 at 19:27:24:
In Reply to: Re: The nature of BTS appearances 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 18, 2004 at 17:54:47:

> > Where a character is operating under the direct orders of someone else, I think it qualifies as a behind-the-scenes appearance. If Puppet Master is controlling the Thing, but we don't see Puppet Master, surely that would be a bts?

> If you list a character as BTS simply because an underling is present and acting in the course of his job, then surely we end up listing the Kingpin behind the scenes every single time one of the henchmen in his organisation turns up. It seems to me that that would go too far - equally, Tony Stark is not behind the scenes every time an employee of his company turns up.

In my own defense, I did specify "under direct orders."

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Re: The nature of BTS appearances
Posted by David Hall on January 18, 2004 at 19:56:18:
In Reply to: Re: The nature of BTS appearances 
posted by Administrator on January 18, 2004 at 19:27:24:

Obviously one has to be careful to only include this type of BTS for apps. where there is a direct link. (Such as direct orders, mind control, etc.)

The Cap one does seem a bit on shaky ground, and probably shouldn't be listed.

There should be a direct relationship, usually as a result of an ongoing storyline, or someone should be directly controlling, or manipulating someone's actions to qualify for the second type of BTS.

One quick example I'd like to list is Sebastian Shaw in UX 110. He's BTS because he hired Warhawk (direct orders) to break into the X-Mansion and bug Cerebro. This is an event that has direct story consequences, and the data he collects leads Shaw to deciding to attempt to acquire the X-Men.

This is why I believe that for X-Men: Prime

Arcade should receive the first type of BTS, he is physically present somewhere setting off the bombs that blow up murderworld, or he has contracted or arranged for this to happen.

and that Bastion should receive the second type of BTS, because he has put the Hound into play against Mystique. He should also receive a BTS for X-factor 123, as (revealed in UX '96) he has ordered the special ops team to break into Falls Edge.

Now if it we merely one of Bastion's henchmen or women, say Daria, out doing something, and not under Bastion's DIRECT orders, I would say no BTS should be given for Bastion.

The use of this type of BTS goes back to the Official Marvel Indexes.

Another example, would be if Random did a job for an employer, say Forge or The Dark Beast, or a gov't official, that person should be given a BTS (If they don't physically appear in the issue.) But at the same time, we would not give the Dark Beast a BTS credit for every app. of Random, just because in general Random works for him.

David Hall

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Re: The nature of BTS appearances
Posted by Jeph! on January 18, 2004 at 22:25:43:
In Reply to: Re: The nature of BTS appearances 
posted by David Hall on January 18, 2004 at 19:56:18:

> I believe that for X-Men: Prime ... Arcade should receive the first type of BTS, he is physically present somewhere setting off the bombs that blow up murderworld, or he has contracted or arranged for this to happen.

Uh ... don't we actually SEE a hologram of Arcade on-panel, just before the bombs blow up? Don't we hear his voice?

He should receive a *full* appearance for this issue, not just a BTS...

-Jeph! 

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Re: The nature of BTS appearances
Posted by David Hall on January 18, 2004 at 22:44:38:
In Reply to: Re: The nature of BTS appearances 
posted by Jeph! on January 18, 2004 at 22:25:43:

Sure thing we do. If it's not a recording then he deserves a full app. If it's a recording then he deserves a BTS. 

I think you are probably right, that it is meant to be live, and should therefore be a full on appearance.

Dave

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Re: The nature of BTS appearances
Posted by Jeph! on January 18, 2004 at 23:26:01:
In Reply to: Re: The nature of BTS appearances 
posted by David Hall on January 18, 2004 at 22:44:38:

> If it's not a recording then he deserves a full app. If it's a recording then he deserves a BTS.

See, that I don't get either. Why is a recorded message from a character "behind the scenes"? There they are, on panel, speaking -- except their actions happened in the past. It's closer to a flashback than a BTS, really...

-Jeph! 

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Re: The nature of BTS appearances
Posted by Kevin on January 19, 2004 at 02:25:30:
In Reply to: Re: The nature of BTS appearances 
posted by Jeph! on January 18, 2004 at 23:26:01:

Hmmm...I checked, and indeed, there's no listing of X:PRIME for Arcade. So I just went searching the MCP for prior precedent...
And it seems, if it was a recording, (like a message left for someone to find) then the message is treated as a flashback...take a look at Harry Osborn, (Green Goblin II) his appearance in ASM 389 is listed as a flashback...that's after he died, but he recorded a message before his death, and left it for Peter Parker to find, which he did in ASM 389...

Now what if it had been just a vocal message, like something left on an answering machine? Is it only a flashback if there's a television monitor or a hologram message, (like that Arcade example above?) 

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XF 140 and 141 Shard
Posted by David Hall on January 17, 2004 at 23:48:45:

Shard's app. in XF 140 and 141 in her past, which is the future, should be listed as a flashback, as Shard is actually travelling through the timestream, reliving her past experiences. As 141 also contains stuff set in the present, I would list these 2 issues as flashbacks for all characters who appear in the past (future) such as Fitzroy, Bishop, Bantam, Fixx, Archer, and Greystone.

David 

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Domination Factor issue numbers??
Posted by Ross Snyder on January 18, 2004 at 14:47:36:

What the flying f' is up with these things? 2.4? 3.7? Are they for real? 

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Re: Domination Factor issue numbers??
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 18, 2004 at 17:41:50:
In Reply to: Domination Factor issue numbers?? 
posted by Ross Snyder on January 18, 2004 at 14:47:36:

Entirely. For reasons best known to Marvel, the eight-issue DOMINATION FACTOR miniseries was published as two four-issue minis - one starring the Avengers, the other starring the Fantastic Four. The first number is the issue number in the four-issue series, the second is the issue number in the overall story.

Thus, 1.1, 1.2, 2.3, 2.4, 3.5, 3.6, 4.7, 4.8. 

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Hawkeye
Posted by PopularLoser on January 18, 2004 at 21:59:34:

Who's contributing analysis of Hawkeye (the current series)? 

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Re: Hawkeye
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 19, 2004 at 08:49:12:
In Reply to: Hawkeye 
posted by PopularLoser on January 18, 2004 at 21:59:34:

I'll be placing brief notes about Hawkeye's series directly into the calendar.

--Paul B.

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Threnody - XM 20 FB
Posted by David Hall on January 18, 2004 at 22:52:35:

Threnody appears in flashback in X-Man #20, which proceeds her first app. in X34.

David Hall 

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Cage and Kingpin -- canon?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 19, 2004 at 09:14:52:

Forgive me if we covered this at some point before...

I know some MAX titles are non-canon (FURY and MORLOCKS, for example). Is the same true for CAGE?

Also, it appears that the Kingpin mini-series is non-canon, given Spidey's appearance in it. It seems to me the young Wilson Fisk assumed power before Spidey came along, and that Spidey shouldn't have met him in the very early days of his career. People don't recognize Spider-Man in the Kingpin series, and yet he was fairly well known immediately, as shown in Amazing Fantasy #16. And, Fisk was already established as an underworld boss in Amazing Fantasy #17. You might think of placing the Kingpin mini-series between Amazing Fantasy #15 and #16, but that would place too much time between those issues. Plus, didn't Spidey meet Kingpin for the first time in ASM 50?

--Paul

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Re: Cage and Kingpin -- canon?
Posted by Dimadick on January 20, 2004 at 05:34:33:
In Reply to: Cage and Kingpin -- canon? 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 19, 2004 at 09:14:52:


> Also, it appears that the Kingpin mini-series is non-canon, given Spidey's appearance in it. It seems to me the young Wilson Fisk assumed power before Spidey came along, and that Spidey shouldn't have met him in the very early days of his career. People don't recognize Spider-Man in the Kingpin series, and yet he was fairly well known immediately, as shown in Amazing Fantasy #16. And, Fisk was already established as an underworld boss in Amazing Fantasy #17. You might think of placing the Kingpin mini-series between Amazing Fantasy #15 and #16, but that would place too much time between those issues. Plus, didn't Spidey meet Kingpin for the first time in ASM 50?

It also contradicts Amazing Spider-Man #-1. This issue featured a 13-year-old Peter Parker discovering accounts concerning veteran heroes Captain America/Steven Rogers and Human Torch/James Hammond. Meanwhile Joseph Robertson first seeks employement from J. Jonah Jameson and Wilson Fisk becomes New York's Kingpin of Crime after murdering his predecessor Don Rigoletto. Wilson's men also attempt to murder Fortunato who apparently served as Rigoletto's liutenant. Fortunato is saved by Jacob Conover/(later Rose III).All four events were placed three years before Spider-Man gaining his powers.

The series also contradicts Incredible Hulk II #293-296. Those issues featured retired crimelord Max "Hammer" Stryker who claimed to have been the "biggest gangster" in New York before the Kingpin ever showed up. Commenting on his "successor" to Boomerang, Max further stated:"Yeah, he's top now, but who do ya think his teacher was?". The Kingpin series states that Wilson is mostly self-taught. 

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Re: Cage and Kingpin -- canon?
Posted by ShadZ on January 20, 2004 at 11:26:05:
In Reply to: Re: Cage and Kingpin -- canon? 
posted by Dimadick on January 20, 2004 at 05:34:33:

And yet... The Kingpin series is obviously supposed to be canon. It's not published in any special imprint (Max, etc.) that lets it be ambigouis about its standing. I haven't seen anything in the promotions (author interviews, etc) that suggests that the creative team was ignoring continunity (like we did with the Rogue LS) (I don't pay close attention to the comics press, I may have missed something). And why would someone write a series like Kingpin, illuminating the early life of a popular character, and deliberately ignore important character points like the charater's wife and son?

I think the Kingpin series is supposed to be canon, but it is so poorly researched that it doesn't fit well. And indexers and profilers just have to make it fit as best as we can...

(Actually, the main (only?) problem is the idea that this series happens after Spider-man started his carreer. If this series were set 10-20 years earlier, would there be any problems at all?)

ShadZ 

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Re: Cage and Kingpin -- canon?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 20, 2004 at 20:54:47:
In Reply to: Re: Cage and Kingpin -- canon? 
posted by ShadZ on January 20, 2004 at 11:26:05:

> And yet... The Kingpin series is obviously supposed to be canon. It's not published in any special imprint (Max, etc.) that lets it be ambigouis about its standing. 

I don't see that it is obviously "supposed" to be canon. One of my pet peeves about Marvel is that, these days, you can't tell from a cover or a title page or an editorial note that a given mini-series is canon or an "elseworlds"-type tale. (Spider-Man: Blue, anyone?) They leave it entirely up to the reader to figure this out, and unfortunately, readers who know enough about Marvel continuity to see the inconsistencies are relatively few.


> And why would someone write a series like Kingpin, illuminating the early life of a popular character, and deliberately ignore important character points like the charater's wife and son?

Why indeed? I think it's a complete ripoff. You pick up a book, think you're going to get to know an established character more, then you realize it's a crock. Glad I paid only a quarter for each issue.


> I think the Kingpin series is supposed to be canon, but it is so poorly researched that it doesn't fit well. And indexers and profilers just have to make it fit as best as we can...

Or we can ignore it...


> (Actually, the main (only?) problem is the idea that this series happens after Spider-man started his carreer. If this series were set 10-20 years earlier, would there be any problems at all?)

While it would help to place the Kingpin mini-series much earlier (which, of course, we can't, 'cause Spider-Man is...well, there), there still appear to be too many inconsistencies regarding Kingpin's early life and career.

Unless someone can reconcile the Kingpin series with everything previously published, or show that the previously published material is to be discounted, I vote "non-canon."

--Paul

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Re: Cage and Kingpin -- canon?
Posted by ShadZ on January 21, 2004 at 11:35:25:
In Reply to: Re: Cage and Kingpin -- canon? 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 20, 2004 at 20:54:47:

> Unless someone can reconcile the Kingpin series with everything previously published, or show that the previously published material is to be discounted, I vote "non-canon."

But... do we get to vote? Without Marvel giving us some hint (in the advertising or publicity or by imprint etc.) that it is non-canon, we just have to take it as canon and assume there is some explanation for what appear to be discrepencies.

no-prize, anyone?

ShadZ

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Re: Cage and Kingpin -- canon?
Posted by Administrator on January 21, 2004 at 20:25:55:
In Reply to: Re: Cage and Kingpin -- canon? 
posted by ShadZ on January 21, 2004 at 11:35:25:

> > Unless someone can reconcile the Kingpin series with everything previously published, or show that the previously published material is to be discounted, I vote "non-canon."

> But... do we get to vote? 

Yes. Barring statements from Marvel editorial, we can decide here what's canon.

Everyone gets to state an opinion. It's the Board of Directors who votes. I would expect Directors to take well-stated opinions and reasonings into account.

I suspect Paul was speaking figuratively, though.

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Re: Cage and Kingpin -- canon?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 21, 2004 at 22:17:13:
In Reply to: Re: Cage and Kingpin -- canon? 
posted by Administrator on January 21, 2004 at 20:25:55:

> I suspect Paul was speaking figuratively, though.

Yes, as in, "here's my two cents worth." Russ, if you want some official action on this, let us know.

--Paul

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Punisher: Return to Big Nothing could suggest it as non-canon
Posted by John McDonagh on January 20, 2004 at 21:54:24:
In Reply to: Cage and Kingpin -- canon? 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 19, 2004 at 09:14:52:


In the graphic novel, Punisher: Return to Big Nothing, in a flashback to Castle's military career, the evacuation of civilians is shown, and one of the civilians works for Wilson Fisk's importing company. So that would suggest that Fisk already had his money-laundering schemes set up by the time Frank Castle started his military career.

I would have to say that Castle's military career predated the modern era by a few years, just in order to accomodate the age of his children when they died. 

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Re: Cage and Kingpin -- canon?
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 23, 2004 at 15:55:47:
In Reply to: Cage and Kingpin -- canon? 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 19, 2004 at 09:14:52:

The continuity status of KINGPIN was addressed in an interview with Bruce Jones and Axel Alonso on Newsarama before the title launched:-

http://www.newsarama.com/Kingpin.htm

Basically, the book is intended to be canon; yes, they know it conflicts with the Kingpin's established timeline; no, they don't care.

In other words, it was intended to effect a retcon. 

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Re: Cage and Kingpin -- canon?
Posted by Russ Chappell on January 23, 2004 at 18:51:42:
In Reply to: Re: Cage and Kingpin -- canon? 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 23, 2004 at 15:55:47:

> Basically, the book is intended to be canon; yes, they know it conflicts with the Kingpin's established timeline; no, they don't care.

> In other words, it was intended to effect a retcon.

At the time that Marvel was publishing John Byrne's Spider-Man: The First Chapter, they tried frantically to convince us that the new version was canon.

If they feel they need Spider-Man to meet Kingpin *earlier than is possible*, in order to tell a good story, more power to them. But they can't convince me that's the _real_ Kingpin, or the real Spider-Man, unless they offer a better explanation than this.

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Re: Cage and Kingpin -- canon?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 23, 2004 at 20:38:28:
In Reply to: Re: Cage and Kingpin -- canon? 
posted by Russ Chappell on January 23, 2004 at 18:51:42:

I'm with you, Russ. They can state all they like that the story is canon, but if they intentionally muck up established events with a retcon -- and do not offer a suitable explanation about why the established events are untrue (e.g. it was all a big lie by Immortus) --the story just isn't canon, plain and simple.

Don't care = non-canon.

If they feel they can't create a compelling story within established continuity, maybe Marvel isn't the place for them.


--Paul B., Enemy of Retcons 

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Re: Cage and Kingpin -- canon?
Posted by ShadZ on January 27, 2004 at 17:37:45:
In Reply to: Re: Cage and Kingpin -- canon? 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 23, 2004 at 15:55:47:

But don't they realize they are retconning out such currently-used concepts as Kingpin's adult son? He's not a forgotten character who can be safely excised -- his recent death was a major plot point.

I read the interview, and it sounds like they aren't purposely doing the major retcon of making Kingpin 20 years younger. They're just doing it by accident, because they want Spider-man in their story. They aren't saying "here's a major rethinking of Kingpin, making him younger and more relevant to today's audiences." Instead, they're saying "Wouldn't it be cool if Spider-Man had been opposing Kingpin since his earliest days as a street thug." In fact, they seem to be making Spider-Man older, not making Kingpin younger...

ShadZ

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Cage?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 23, 2004 at 20:40:55:
In Reply to: Cage and Kingpin -- canon? 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 19, 2004 at 09:14:52:

People have been commenting on KINGPIN. Can anyone remark on the canonicity of CAGE?

--Paul B. 

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Re: Cage?
Posted by Jeph! on January 23, 2004 at 21:40:21:
In Reply to: Cage? 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 23, 2004 at 20:40:55:

I think it was decided a while back on this board that it wasn't canon -- although I can't quite remember the arguments, I think it had something to do with Cage being portrayed as fairly stupid, and differences in Hammerhead's continuity.

Can anyone provide more details? My memory fails me...

-Jeph! 

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Status of the Spidey calendar
Posted by Antonio Gavio on January 20, 2004 at 15:30:07:

Paul: 
Here's a few points to get straight before posting the Spider-Man calendar:

After further review I can say for sure that PUN6 34 happens during the same early morning, and not split in two days as previously suggested. The Punisher states that dealing with Daredevil, Spider-Man and Wolverine took him "twenty minutes" that made him "miss the start of the auction" for Bruce Banner (at 3am). Now, it could be either way with PUN6 33, the whole issue could happen from past midnight to around 2:30am or it could be midnight between pages. It's up to us, but I don't see a relevant reason to split it. 
I didn't pay too much attention at first but being that there's a "week" or "eight days" between pages 13 and 14 of PUN6 36, how was it you came up with ten days in between for your September 8 and 18 calendar placement? 
Also, did you and Jeph ever get an agreement on that September placement for PUN6 33-37? At this point I'm leaning towards different dates.

Another topic: I said before, regarding ALIAS 25, that Jessica ends up in Luke's bed, although he claims nothing happened and she just doesn't remember anything. Well I was wrong, actually, she checks herself and sees no evidence of having had sex with Luke; he just doesn't mention anything about it.

It may be a little late to try to rework that July 4th reference for Cap, having to move Avengers, Alias, Daredevil and all, but roughly, how did you come up with the April placement for the Kang War?

I have added the Fight Club Thunderbolts run to the Spidey calendar so that's something less for you to worry about, Spider-Man: Blue is also in the books. I'd like to know your proposed placement for Spider-Man/Wolverine. The Dealine series continues in limbo.

I might be forgetting something; if so I'll let you know.
Antonio 

			*	*	*

Re: Status of the Spidey calendar
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 21, 2004 at 07:26:20:
In Reply to: Status of the Spidey calendar 
posted by Antonio Gavio on January 20, 2004 at 15:30:07:

> After further review I can say for sure that PUN6 34 happens during the same early morning, and not split in two days as previously suggested. The Punisher states that dealing with Daredevil, Spider-Man and Wolverine took him "twenty minutes" that made him "miss the start of the auction" for Bruce Banner (at 3am). Now, it could be either way with PUN6 33, the whole issue could happen from past midnight to around 2:30am or it could be midnight between pages. It's up to us, but I don't see a relevant reason to split it. 

Adjustment made. Thank you.

> I didn't pay too much attention at first but being that there's a "week" or "eight days" between pages 13 and 14 of PUN6 36, how was it you came up with ten days in between for your September 8 and 18 calendar placement? 

Actually, now I do have eight days separating pages 13 and 14 of PUN6 36 -- Sept 7 to Sept 15.


> Also, did you and Jeph ever get an agreement on that September placement for PUN6 33-37? At this point I'm leaning towards different dates.

No agreement. There's still a question about the need for PUN6 37 to occur before DD2 50.


> Another topic: I said before, regarding ALIAS 25, that Jessica ends up in Luke's bed, although he claims nothing happened and she just doesn't remember anything. Well I was wrong, actually, she checks herself and sees no evidence of having had sex with Luke; he just doesn't mention anything about it.

Well, that's a problem. Are we led to believe that Luke and Jessica had sex only once, in ALIAS #1, and that ALIAS #28 is supposed to occur only "three months" later? And that "two months" pass between pages 10 and 11 of ALIAS #11? And "six weeks" between pages 16 and 17 of ALIAS #21? Something's not adding up here. 

Grumble.


> It may be a little late to try to rework that July 4th reference for Cap, having to move Avengers, Alias, Daredevil and all, but roughly, how did you come up with the April placement for the Kang War?

No direct reference was made to timing, just that we needed to allow at least several weeks for earth to be under Kang's boot, with hardly anything else going on in the MU at the time. That limited the available windows on the calendar. Final placement was based on a host of intersecting chronologies, including stories that did have some temporal references.


> I have added the Fight Club Thunderbolts run to the Spidey calendar so that's something less for you to worry about, 

I ended up purchasing the last Thunderbolts issues in a comic store bargain bin. I have Spidey in TB 80-81 in early April of the year after the Kang War, but that's adjustable.


> Spider-Man: Blue is also in the books. 

I'm assuming you mean the framing sequences. I don't believe the flashback scenes are canon, so that calls the framing sequences into question.


> I'd like to know your proposed placement for Spider-Man/Wolverine. 

Current placement of Spidey in that mini-series is tentative. It probably would need to go before Peter and MJ's reunion.


> The Dealine series continues in limbo.

I have Spidey in DEADLINE #2 on October 1, based on calendar references in DEADLINE.


> I might be forgetting something; if so I'll let you know.

Thanks, Antonio. I'm sure you'll give me a lot to think about when you submit your Spidey calendar. (And that ALIAS thing is really bugging me...)

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: Status of the Spidey calendar
Posted by Antonio Gavio on January 21, 2004 at 13:54:32:
In Reply to: Re: Status of the Spidey calendar 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 21, 2004 at 07:26:20:

> > I didn't pay too much attention at first but being that there's a "week" or "eight days" between pages 13 and 14 of PUN6 36, how was it you came up with ten days in between for your September 8 and 18 calendar placement? 

> Actually, now I do have eight days separating pages 13 and 14 of PUN6 36 -- Sept 7 to Sept 15.

Hmmm, that could be a problem...

> > I have added the Fight Club Thunderbolts run to the Spidey calendar so that's something less for you to worry about, 

> I ended up purchasing the last Thunderbolts issues in a comic store bargain bin. I have Spidey in TB 80-81 in early April of the year after the Kang War, but that's adjustable.

I have it a few months earlier in December-January, because of the snow in some issues and some scenes that could be taken as happening in Christmas.

> > Spider-Man: Blue is also in the books. 

> I'm assuming you mean the framing sequences. I don't believe the flashback scenes are canon, so that calls the framing sequences into question.

Yes, I mean the framing sequences. Let's not forget that the flashback scenes are supposed to be how Peter remembers them, so I'm guessing we'll deal with that when we get to that point in the calendar.

> > I'd like to know your proposed placement for Spider-Man/Wolverine. 

> Current placement of Spidey in that mini-series is tentative. It probably would need to go before Peter and MJ's reunion.

How does October or November sound?

> > The Dealine series continues in limbo.

> I have Spidey in DEADLINE #2 on October 1, based on calendar references in DEADLINE.

Still doesn't do it for me.

> > I might be forgetting something; if so I'll let you know.

> Thanks, Antonio. I'm sure you'll give me a lot to think about when you submit your Spidey calendar. (And that ALIAS thing is really bugging me...)

A this point I'm thinking I'll submit the Spidey calendar as I have it so far and when you release the whole calendar we can figure out what we can do about the topics that are bugging us.

Antonio 

			*	*	*

Re: Status of the Spidey calendar
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 21, 2004 at 22:14:40:
In Reply to: Re: Status of the Spidey calendar 
posted by Antonio Gavio on January 21, 2004 at 13:54:32:

> A this point I'm thinking I'll submit the Spidey calendar as I have it so far and when you release the whole calendar we can figure out what we can do about the topics that are bugging us.

That's probably the most expeditious course of action. And I'm actually planning to try to reconcile differences before posting the larger calendar. Thanks, Antonio.

--Paul

			*	*	*

ZEUS...ARNIM ZOLA...BALDER
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 20, 2004 at 16:07:41:

new entries marked **


ZEUS

**CM 29-FB (10p3) Zeus takes control of Olympus following his fathers discorporation.
HHC 1-FB

. . .additionally
. . .MENTOR/ALARS [ETERNAL]
. . .CM 29-FB (10p3  10p10) his exile from Olympus and journey to Titan 
. . .DD 105-FB 

.. .. .. .. ..

T@ 1 
**T@ 8 (Placement: Thor recalls the events of T@ 1, so definitely after that. Because of Thors remembrance I positioned it before T@ 5 at which time Thor seems to have forgotten that he has met Zeus and Hercules before. I guess this was one of those world-famous mind zaps Odin was so good at. Occurs during the Trojan war.
T@ 5 

additionally re T@ 8

. . .THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
. . .T 253/2
. . .**T@ 8
. . .T@ 5

. . .ATHENA [GREEK GOD]
. . .**T@ 8
. . .T 164

. . .ARES [GREEK GOD]
. . .**T@ 8
. . .HHC 1-FB


. . .HERA/"AUGUSTINE JONES" [GREEK GOD]
. . .**T@ 8
. . .T@ 5


ZOLA, ARNIM

XF@ 3/3-FB
SVTU 17-FB (23p1  23p4) Shows Zola meeting Hitler in 1945 and the cloning of Hitlers brain.
CA 208


>>

BALDER [ASGARDIAN]


T 306/2
T 311/2
**T@ 14/3 (editorial note states the story occurs shortly after the events depicted in T.O.A. from Thor #311)
T 313


further fallout from T@ 14/3


. . .KARNILLA [ASGARDIAN]

. . .T 308
. . .T@ 14/2 **** Should read T@ 14/3 (T@ 14/2 is an 8-pager with no discernible title, although the index on the first page lists it as Gods Hope, starting on pg 31 (Only Thor and the Watcher appear). The title for T@ 14/3 is omitted from the index, so its easy to see how a mix-up might occur.)

. . .T 318


. . .HILDEGARDE [ASGARDIAN]
. . .T@ 14/3 **** Should read T@ 14/4
. . .T 195


. . .HOGUN [ASGARDIAN]
. . .T 406/2
. . .T@ 14/2 **** should read T@ 14/4
, , ,T 401

. . .HUGIN
. . .(T@ 14/3 Im not seeing HUGIN in T@ 14/3 or T@ 14/4)
. . .T 381

. . .SET
. . .SUB-M 8-BTS ~ T@ 14/2-FB **** The Saga of the Serpent Crown is where the SET flashback comes from so this should read SUB-M 8-BTS ~ T@ 14/5-FB
. . .M/TIO 66


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#150


			*	*	*

Re: ZEUS...ARNIM ZOLA...BALDER
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 20, 2004 at 17:00:46:
In Reply to: ZEUS...ARNIM ZOLA...BALDER 
posted by Arthur Stein on January 20, 2004 at 16:07:41:

> ZEUS...ARNIM ZOLA...BALDER
> #150

I was wondering what you were going to do when you finished with the Zs. Congrats on your 150th, Art!

- SK 

			*	*	*

Re: ZEUS...ARNIM ZOLA...BALDER
Posted by Jhaeman on January 21, 2004 at 08:20:25:
In Reply to: Re: ZEUS...ARNIM ZOLA...BALDER 
posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 20, 2004 at 17:00:46:

> I was wondering what you were going to do when you finished with the Zs. Congrats on your 150th, Art!

I agree-damned impressive! 

			*	*	*

life after Z
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 21, 2004 at 08:37:36:
In Reply to: Re: ZEUS...ARNIM ZOLA...BALDER 
posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 20, 2004 at 17:00:46:

> I was wondering what you were going to do when you finished with the Zs. Congrats on your 150th, Art!

> - SK


Well.. Our organization of material is/was quite different and even our alpha sequencing wasn't always the same (My HUMAN TORCH entries were under T for Torch for instance), so many entries were discovered 'out of order'. Plus there were entries that took too much time to research and I missed the alpha opportunity. Others where the research opened up new or unresolved questions that were left out till 'later'. And there were even one or two magazines that I couldn't locate at the time. Trying hard to get it all together so this second pass will get all that's left in 'correct' sequence. After that..?? 

			*	*	*

Mr. Stein, that was Zuras, not Zeus, in CM#29
Posted by John McDonagh on January 20, 2004 at 18:28:23:
In Reply to: ZEUS...ARNIM ZOLA...BALDER 
posted by Arthur Stein on January 20, 2004 at 16:07:41:

"ZEUS
**CM 29-FB (10p3) Zeus takes control of Olympus following his fathers discorporation."
HHC 1-FB
Sorry, but retcons have made this posting obsolete. Mr. Stein, it was later revealed that the Titanians (such as Mentor, Thanos, etc.) were in fact Eternals, not Olympian gods. So, this would actually be Zuras, here, not Zeus, as reflected in Zuras' Official Handbook Entry and his Chronology project entry.
http://users.ev1.net/~peanut/bio-zuras.html


. . .additionally
. . .MENTOR/ALARS [ETERNAL]
. . .CM 29-FB (10p3  10p10) his exile from Olympus and journey to Titan 
. . .DD 105-FB 

.. .. .. .. ..

T@ 1 
**T@ 8 (Placement: Thor recalls the events of T@ 1, so definitely after that. Because of Thors remembrance I positioned it before T@ 5 at which time Thor seems to have forgotten that he has met Zeus and Hercules before."
T@ 5 
With regards to Zeus' chronology, Mr. Stein-as confirmed by the letters page of Thor#298 and Zeus' Official Handbook entry, for Zeus Thor Annual#8 preceds Thor Annual#5. Zeus had precognitive knowledge of the events of Thor Annual#5 due to his oracles. This might muddy the waters for the chronology. 

. . .SET
. . .SUB-M 8-BTS ~ T@ 14/2-FB **** The Saga of the Serpent Crown is where the SET flashback comes from so this should read SUB-M 8-BTS ~ T@ 14/5-FB
. . .M/TIO 66
You know, this reminds me. I'll have to do a summary of Conan the Barbarian I#147 someday, because Set is definitely behind the scenes in that issue (one of his underlings calls out to him, and he turns her into a harpy). 

			*	*	*

Mr. Stein, what was that Watcher flashback from FF I#204 that you brought up a while ago?
Posted by John McDonagh on January 20, 2004 at 18:38:11:
In Reply to: ZEUS...ARNIM ZOLA...BALDER 
posted by Arthur Stein on January 20, 2004 at 16:07:41:

By the way, Mr. Stein, what was that FF#204 with the Watcher flashback that you mentioned a while ago? Maybe if you describe it to us, we can further nail down when it took place. 

			*	*	*

Re: Mr. Stein, what was that Watcher flashback from FF I#204 that you brought up a while ago?
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 21, 2004 at 11:24:52:
In Reply to: Mr. Stein, what was that Watcher flashback from FF I#204 that you brought up a while ago? 
posted by John McDonagh on January 20, 2004 at 18:38:11:

can you narrow it down a little.. how FAR back is 'a while ago'? Do you know what character post it was in reference to?

			*	*	*

FF #204 flashback
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 21, 2004 at 19:36:53:
In Reply to: Mr. Stein, what was that Watcher flashback from FF I#204 that you brought up a while ago? 
posted by John McDonagh on January 20, 2004 at 18:38:11:

> By the way, Mr. Stein, what was that FF#204 with the Watcher flashback that you mentioned a while ago? Maybe if you describe it to us, we can further nail down when it took place. 


The Watcher is shown in two panels. Queen Adora is describing the destruction of Xandar. After the world was ripped apart...

(14p1)
"The remnants of our world were flung throughout the galaxy, celestial flotsam set adrift in an endless sea". view of the watcher in space while many chunks of the planet sail past. "Yet, mystically, for no reason we can fathom, our four largest cities survived the dretruction of our world..."

(14p2)
"...mysteriously surrounded by fields of force which kept our atmosphere intact." view of the watcher watching as large chunks of planet sail by, with a city upon each, and each encapsulated in a force bubble. 

And please, in future... its Arthur. Mr Stein is way too formal. :) 

			*	*	*

Thank you, Arthur; I Did you get my warning about Zuras and Zeus?
Posted by John McDonagh on January 22, 2004 at 16:04:31:
In Reply to: FF #204 flashback 
posted by Arthur Stein on January 21, 2004 at 19:36:53:

Thank you, Arthur. 
The Eternals really make doing chronologies for mythological characters tough. As Kurt Busiek put it, the Eternals inspired many legends of great figures of myth.....but these great figures of myth actually exist, too! 

			*	*	*

yes thanks
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 23, 2004 at 07:18:06:

In Reply to: Thank you, Arthur; I Did you get my warning about Zuras and Zeus? posted by John McDonagh on January 22, 2004 at 16:04:31:

Yes I did get the message about Zuras and Zeus.

It clears up a lot. (like mentor and zeus being Brothers!)

thanks again 

			*	*	*

Uatu note; his appearance in Quasar#6 is synchronous with his What If II#9 appearance as narrator 
Posted by John McDonagh on January 20, 2004 at 18:43:02:

The issue of whether Uatu's appearances in What If as a narrator should be chronologized came up. Well, I can tell you that at least one of them can be. 
In What If II#9, Uatu observes a world where the new X-Men died on their first mission. In Quasar#6, Quasar and the Living Lightning fly into Uatu's home....and see him watching the Earth from What If II#9. So, irrefutable proof that the appearances are synchronous. 
By the way, with regards to it seeming as if the Watcher is talking to the camera and breaking the fourth wall, actually, Quasar#47 establishes that he is recording his narration. In fact, in that issue, Quasar walks in on him during a recording session! 

WOSM 34
FF@ 21
M/CP 17/3
*Q 6~What If II#29
DD@ 5/4

			*	*	*

Sgt. Fury chronology question; did that title jump around a bit in time?
Posted by John McDonagh on January 20, 2004 at 18:47:01:

I was thinking about the Sgt. Fury title. I know this a bit off, but I found something strange while going through that series I thought would be interesting.
Sgt. Fury#1 takes place around time of D-Day, which occured in 1944. However, Sgt. Fury#51 takes place during the Teheran conference-which was in late 1943. 

			*	*	*

Candra
Posted by David Hall on January 20, 2004 at 19:04:25:

Is there some reason that Candra's listing omits Gambit vol.1 1-4? And do we want to give her a BTS in the FB in X 60, destroying the temple that Storm stole her gem from? Or should I chalk this one up to an automatic defense system and let it go?

CANDRA
GAM3 12
GAM3 14
GAM3 6
XU 7
**GAM 1
**GAM 2
**GAM 3
**GAM 4
R 1
R 2
R 3
R 4
W2 94-BTS
X 60
X 61

David Hall

			*	*	*

Shadow King - not in X60 & Karima
Posted by David Hall on January 20, 2004 at 19:23:08:

By the way, the Shadow King does not appear in X60. This is an illusion, as is Juggernaut and Cable in X61. They are a projection of the girl Karima's power. And while we are on that subject, in X61 it is revealed that the boy, Jamil never existed, and is also only a manisfestation of Karima's power. 

This means that Jamil's listing:
JAMIL
XU 7
W2 94
W2 99
X 60
X 61

Should be deleted (for never having existed) (or at the least his listing should have a notation saying that he is a figment of Karima's imagination), and that Karima should inherit a BTS for these appearances, as it was her power which allowed him to exist at all.

KARIMA
XU 7
**W2 94 - BTS
**W2 99 - BTS
X 60
X 61

David Hall

			*	*	*

Closing the Gap - 1993
Posted by John on January 21, 2004 at 11:35:24:

I was just curious as to how work was coming on filling in all the 1993 Marvel issues. 

			*	*	*

Re: Closing the Gap - 1993
Posted by Administrator on January 21, 2004 at 20:31:51:
In Reply to: Closing the Gap - 1993 
posted by John on January 21, 2004 at 11:35:24:

> I was just curious as to how work was coming on filling in all the 1993 Marvel issues.

I've finished Daredevil, Namor, Silver Surfer and Dr. Strange. I got about halfway through Darkhawk before I realized I can't find the rest of my Darkhawks (#30 on). I purchased a complete set on ebay and expect it to come in by the end of the week.

			*	*	*

DD2 #56 -- first impressions
Posted by Jeph! on January 21, 2004 at 16:32:28:

Okay, so I don't normally contribute to the Daredevil discussions. But since DD2 #56 could contribute to our placing of PUN6 #33-37, I thought I'd chcek it out in the store.

First off -- it does seem to appear that, in the aftermath of DD's unmasking to the Kingpin's men in DD2 #50, his alter ego became public knowledge. Ben Urich classifies the knowledge as "urban legend", but in this issue Matt is asked to run for Mayor based on that legend -- and although he doesn't confirm his alter ego, he doesn't appear to be fighting or denying it anymore.

Secondly, someone else asked -- based on the scene where Spider-Man shows up out of costume with Dr. Strange, Mr. Fantastic, and Luke Cage -- when exactly Peter unveiled his identity to some of them? Well, this issue makes clear that, at least in Cage's case, he DIDN'T know previously -- this was the issue where Peter let Cage in on his identity.

(By the way, Mr. Fantastic appears here unscarred. Just like in ASM2 #57-58 and ASM #500.)

Thirdly, and most importantly -- it appears that only the opening sequence, with Ben Urich in a diner, is taking place "almost a year to the day" after DD2 #50. The rest of the issue is Ben's narrative, flashing back to the events that occured IN THE YEAR BETWEEN DD2 #50 and his present-day. Ben does detail a six-week period of intense underworld violence, and a follow-up period where Matt invests money in the city and turns things around -- so clearly a few months have passed, yes -- but we're still not a full year into the future yet.

Meaning, in terms of the PUN6 arc I mentioned above, there's not as drastic a need to push it back as we thought.

I suspect by the end of the "King of Hell's Kitchen" arc in #60 or 61, we'll be caught up to Ben Urich's current time, and WILL be a full year into the future -- but the important scenes in this arc, the crossovers with Spidey, Mr. Fantastic, and Luke Cage, can be placed merely two to three months after DD2 #50.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: DD2 #56 -- first impressions
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 21, 2004 at 22:11:52:
In Reply to: DD2 #56 -- first impressions 
posted by Jeph! on January 21, 2004 at 16:32:28:

> First off -- it does seem to appear that, in the aftermath of DD's unmasking to the Kingpin's men in DD2 #50, his alter ego became public knowledge. Ben Urich classifies the knowledge as "urban legend", but in this issue Matt is asked to run for Mayor based on that legend -- and although he doesn't confirm his alter ego, he doesn't appear to be fighting or denying it anymore.

> Secondly, someone else asked -- based on the scene where Spider-Man shows up out of costume with Dr. Strange, Mr. Fantastic, and Luke Cage -- when exactly Peter unveiled his identity to some of them? Well, this issue makes clear that, at least in Cage's case, he DIDN'T know previously -- this was the issue where Peter let Cage in on his identity.

> (By the way, Mr. Fantastic appears here unscarred. Just like in ASM2 #57-58 and ASM #500.)

That's good info for placement...


> Thirdly, and most importantly -- it appears that only the opening sequence, with Ben Urich in a diner, is taking place "almost a year to the day" after DD2 #50. The rest of the issue is Ben's narrative, flashing back to the events that occured IN THE YEAR BETWEEN DD2 #50 and his present-day. Ben does detail a six-week period of intense underworld violence, and a follow-up period where Matt invests money in the city and turns things around -- so clearly a few months have passed, yes -- but we're still not a full year into the future yet.

Cool. That makes an unscarred Reed's appearance here easier to deal with, too. But should we try to accommodate all of DD2 51-55 in the time between DD2 50 and DD2 56? Remember we need to have a span of months between panels 1 and 2 of page 17 of DD2 56 -- time enough for Maya to become an accomplished playwright and theater performer. That last bit of DD2 56 might be regarded as a flash-forward, out of sequence with other DD2 issues, OR we need to put several months (though not a year) between DD2 50 and 56.


> Meaning, in terms of the PUN6 arc I mentioned above, there's not as drastic a need to push it back as we thought.

I'm not sure I follow here. I thought you were arguing above for a placement of PUN6 before DD2 50. Please clarify.


> I suspect by the end of the "King of Hell's Kitchen" arc in #60 or 61, we'll be caught up to Ben Urich's current time, and WILL be a full year into the future -- but the important scenes in this arc, the crossovers with Spidey, Mr. Fantastic, and Luke Cage, can be placed merely two to three months after DD2 #50.

Probably not that soon after, given DD2 54 (above).

Great notes here, Jeph, especially given that you were perusing the comic in the store. Thanks!

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: DD2 #56 -- first impressions
Posted by Jeph! on January 21, 2004 at 22:42:30:
In Reply to: Re: DD2 #56 -- first impressions 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 21, 2004 at 22:11:52:

> should we try to accommodate all of DD2 51-55 in the time between DD2 50 and DD2 56? Remember we need to have a span of months between panels 1 and 2 of page 17 of DD2 56 -- time enough for Maya to become an accomplished playwright and theater performer. That last bit of DD2 56 might be regarded as a flash-forward, out of sequence with other DD2 issues, OR we need to put several months (though not a year) between DD2 50 and 56.

I'm not entirely sure -- perhaps, after DD2 #57-60 finishes out the storyline, we'll discover that a span of several months DOES exist between DD2 #50-56 -- and we can slot DD2 #51-55 (1-17p1) at the very beginning of that gap, and DD2 #55 (17p2-on) at the very end.

I'd put "Echo" on hold for now, given that it's basically a fill-in, and concentrate on what the Bendis issues have to say about the passage of time.

> > in terms of the PUN6 arc I mentioned above, there's not as drastic a need to push it back as we thought.

> I'm not sure I follow here. I thought you were arguing above for a placement of PUN6 before DD2 50. Please clarify.

What I mean is -- the effective gap between DD2 #50-56, the gap between Matt's unmasking and the main body of #56, is now only a few months -- not a full year. The end of the year gap is still some time off in the future.

Now I know that it's hard to say exactly which Marvel books are taking place "right now", rather than "a few months ago" or "a few months from now" in relation to one another -- but let's say that the Marvel Universe's "now" is halfway through this gap -- that DD2 #50 takes place an equal number of days into the past as the main DD2 #56 FBs take place into the future.

Back when the gap was a full year long, DD2 #50 would have "six months ago" -- placing PUN6 #33-37, which should go before it, also six months before the MU's "now".

Now that the gap is only -- let's say -- four months long, DD2 #50 needs only to be pushed back two months -- meaning PUN6 #33-37 have a lot more leeway to be closer to "current".

Good lord. Am I making any sense? I don't think I'm making sense.

If any of us were artifically pushing DD2 #50 back, to accomodate the "year gap" we knew was coming, well, we need no longer do it.

And since I'm pushing for PUN6 #33-37 to occur somewhere closer to their publication date order, at least in terms of Wolvie's chronology, this to me is a good thing.

By the way, Antonio, if you're reading, where are you trying to place PUN6 #33-37 in Spidey's chronology? Does the shortening of the gap, and the opportunity to make it more current, help you out?

> Great notes here, Jeph, especially given that you were perusing the comic in the store. Thanks!

Any time, Paul. I'm sorry if this post was confusing or rambling -- I've been spending the last few hours polishing my big interweaving of UX #355 and AF2 #9 (remember that?) and my brain is shot. Hopefully I'll be able to post that sucker soon, though -- I'm on revision #4 or so and I don't think it can get any bulkier. Ugh.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: DD2 #56 -- first impressions
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 22, 2004 at 07:34:55:
In Reply to: Re: DD2 #56 -- first impressions 
posted by Jeph! on January 21, 2004 at 22:42:30:

So, you don't have a problem with PUN6 37 occurring before DD2 50? (Sorry I'm dense here.) But I do still have DD2 50 occurring six months before some current stories, given temporal and calendar references -- like the summer of X-titles.

By the time the year gap closes in DD2, a lot of titles probably will be occurring around the same time.

--Paul 

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Re: DD2 #56 -- first impressions
Posted by Jeph! on January 22, 2004 at 15:19:30:
In Reply to: Re: DD2 #56 -- first impressions 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 22, 2004 at 07:34:55:

> So, you don't have a problem with PUN6 37 occurring before DD2 50? (Sorry I'm dense here.)

Well -- first off, I haven't read the specific reference in the PUN6 arc that causes us to place it there, but I trust Kevin or whoever mentioned it here.

Secondly, I only read DD2 #56 in the store, so I may have missed something -- but the impression I got was that, after his six-week crimewave following DD2 #50, he stopped denying that he was DD. He never admiited it, but ... he stopped denying it.

So, yes -- I get the feeling PUN6 #33-37 should occur before DD2 #50 (and thus, I guess, before #46-49, right?). But in my magical land of no calendar references, I have DD2 #50 occuring quite a bit closer to the present day than you -- and I mentally have DD2 #56 slotted some ways into the future, to account for Reed's unscarred face.

> By the time the year gap closes in DD2, a lot of titles probably will be occurring around the same time.

Agreed. As usual, I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude -- DD2 #57-60 might confirm or break a lot of things. But really, as long as the PUN6 arc gets placed after W2 #186, I suppose I'm okay with it either way -- and it would be real cool to be able to place it after "Six Hours", as well. (Did you catch my various arguments regarding icicles and the sun setting at six pm in "6H"? I'd try to place 6H in the early spring following the snow in XX #20-23, myself, regardless of the boy's "summer camp" line...)

-Jeph! 

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Re: DD2 #56 -- first impressions
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 22, 2004 at 21:35:01:
In Reply to: Re: DD2 #56 -- first impressions 
posted by Jeph! on January 22, 2004 at 15:19:30:

> > So, you don't have a problem with PUN6 37 occurring before DD2 50? (Sorry I'm dense here.)

> Well -- first off, I haven't read the specific reference in the PUN6 arc that causes us to place it there, but I trust Kevin or whoever mentioned it here.

> Secondly, I only read DD2 #56 in the store, so I may have missed something -- but the impression I got was that, after his six-week crimewave following DD2 #50, he stopped denying that he was DD. He never admiited it, but ... he stopped denying it.

> So, yes -- I get the feeling PUN6 #33-37 should occur before DD2 #50 (and thus, I guess, before #46-49, right?). But in my magical land of no calendar references, I have DD2 #50 occuring quite a bit closer to the present day than you -- and I mentally have DD2 #56 slotted some ways into the future, to account for Reed's unscarred face.

Well, placing DD2 46-50 as early as I have it (September) does have the advantage of allowing more flexibility for that year to pass between DD2 50 and 56. 

Also, DD2 41-45 leads directly into DD2 46, and although there's a gap between pages 15 and 16 of DD2 46, it's probably not very long. That's noteworthy because have that ALIAS 18 tie-in with DD2 42 to deal with, and in turn, the reference in ALIAS 17 (immediately before) to the news of Cap's identity being revealed, in CA4 3 (whose calendar placement has been a subject of concern, but those concerned actually want to move this back even further, the opposite direction from which you'd like to see it go for the sake of DD2 50).

Additionally, placing DD2 50 earlier gives us more freedom to place DD2 56 before FF2 68 -- *before* the plot that led to Reed's scarring, rather than leaving the placement of DD2 56 to some imagined point in the future after the healing of Reed's face (and who knows when and if that will happen).


> > By the time the year gap closes in DD2, a lot of titles probably will be occurring around the same time.

> Agreed. As usual, I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude -- DD2 #57-60 might confirm or break a lot of things. But really, as long as the PUN6 arc gets placed after W2 #186, I suppose I'm okay with it either way -- and it would be real cool to be able to place it after "Six Hours", as well. (Did you catch my various arguments regarding icicles and the sun setting at six pm in "6H"? I'd try to place 6H in the early spring following the snow in XX #20-23, myself, regardless of the boy's "summer camp" line...)

Admittedly, there are discrepencies in the temporal references of Six Hours. We should accept either the sunset reference or the summer camp reference; we can't have both. For the sun to set before 6:15 PM in that part of the world, we talking about a placement before mid-March. That's inconsistent with the green trees and seemingly warm weather in Canada. I determined that the "summer camp" reference was a stronger case for that reason. And again, as you know, my concern with the relative publication order of stand-alone mini-series is small. I know the MCP will end up reflecting a different order for this than I propose.

--Paul

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Chronology Review for DD2 #56 for the calender!
Posted by Kevin on January 22, 2004 at 23:55:27:
In Reply to: Re: DD2 #56 -- first impressions 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 22, 2004 at 21:35:01:

Man, you guys move fast. I just got my copy of DD2 #56 today. ;-)

Might as well go ahead and do a full fledged review, as this issue has been a point of contention as of late, (and it only came out on the market yesterday!)

DD2 #56
"The King of Hell's Kitchen pt. 1"
Written by Brian Michael Bendis
Drawn by Alex Maleev

Appearances: Matt Murdock, (aka Daredevil) Ben Urich, Foggy Nelson, Milla Donovan, Peter Parker, Mr. Fantastic, Luke Cage, Dr. Strange, Agent Driver, (the FBI agent who's been in the last few DD issues, dealing with Matt).

Synopsis: EVENTS HAPPEN OVER THE COURSE OF ONE YEARS TIME, AS DETAILED BELOW.

Pgs. 1, 4: The story opens with Ben Urick meeting a mystery figure, (who's back is to us the audience) at a small diner in New York. Whoever the stranger is, (this issue doesn't reveal to us yet) the two don't know each other, at least not well. Ben says he's a little nervous talking to him.

So they sit down and start talking, (Ben doing most of the talking) and Ben begins to go over the events of the last year. He notes today is "almost a year to the day when Matt Murdock took control of 'the Kitchen'".

These words are confirmed as referring to the events of DD#50, (where DD beat Kingpin to a bloody pulp one night) due to pages 2 and 3 showing a big splash page, (a flashback) showing Matt standing over Kingpin's unconsious form, his mask off, (as seen in DD2 #50).

Slipping back to the present on pg. 4, Ben continues talking about this momentous event, saying it's the biggest story this city will ever see. Matt took off his mask in that bar, revealing his face to the thugs of Hell's Kitchen, and stood over the Kingpin's body, declaring himself the new Kingpin. And yet, as Ben says, "You cannot find a person who actually saw this. So scared were the people in that bar...they either left town that night, turned it all around, or killed themselves. Matt Murdock IS the new kingpin, and it is OFFICIALLY urban legend."

pgs. 5-6: A two page splash showing a close up on an angry Daredevil smashing...something...a window maybe? It's metaphorical, showing DD when on an unprecidented crime fighting spree. The Ben Urick narrative continues, as we learn that after the events of DD#50, the next 6 weeks were a blitz by DD against the underworld of Hell's Kitchen. 

Ben says, "Six straight weeks of terror and violence against the underworld that the city has never seen before or since."

He also notes, "They say Matt Murdock disappeared for this. It was just Daredevil." 

So Murdock went into hiding during this 6 week blitz, focusing completely on crime fighting as DD.

pg. 7: A one page splash page, showing Matt Murdock and Milla Donovan at a high society type party among the upper class of NYC.

Ben's narrative notes, "And as quickly as it started...that's how it ended. Matt Murdock reappeared."

He notes that while DD was fighting crime, Foggy Nelson was swimming through a sea of legal appeals. The trial which Matt Murdock won way back in DD#26? The start of the Bendis storyline? Their lawfirm was finally awarded the money due for winning that lawsuit against that big corporation. Ben notes that Matt took all of that money and put it back into rebuilding Hell's Kitchen. And he notes that his girlfriend Milla Donovan helped, as she's "actually works at the Hell's Kitchen Housing commision."

Please Note: Matt is shown at this party with a mustache and chin hair. I guess it constitutes a goatee. So from this page on, he has a goatee. (I guess during the 6 week spree, he grew one, and kept it).

pg. 8: A splash page showing a random rundown street of 'the old NYC', (probably before DD2 #50)as Ben's narrative notes that they spent the money wisely, and put it into investing in Hell's Kitchen. 

Ben notes that they figured out which buildings could be saved, and "And the rest of it went into a new library." 

Note: Wouldn't it be great if we could tie that into the new Gwen Stacy library we saw Peter Parker opening around the ASM #51-54 arc, (the one with the undead Gamma Mobster?) Just a thought.

pg. 9: Now we see the exact same street corner, AFTER DD2 #50, as Matt and Milla walk down the block happily arm in arm, a blue sky overhead. Everything looks renovated. The point is, Matt and Milla 'saved Hell's Kitchen'.

pg. 10-11 Now as the narrative continues, we see Matt sitting in his law office, being approached by figures from the Democrat party in NYC, asking him to run for mayor on thier party ticket. As Jeph mentioned, DD warns them that he's become a controversial figure as of late, but they want him to run because of that. The Urban Legend around Murdock fuels his popularity.

This Democrat figure notes their party is going to "officially" ask him to run tomorrow at dinner. This was just a curtesy call. As he leaves, the sectretary says Matt has a phone call: "A Luke Cage on Line 7".

Pgs. 12-17 Matt goes to the park, (presumably later that day, but could possibly be the next), to meet up with Reed Richards, Luke Cage, Peter Parker, and Dr. Strange, all of whom are out of uniform. The implication seems to be that Peter revealed his identity to all 3 of these guys recently. Matt asks what Parker's doing here with 'them', (showing Matt still has hostility towards Luke Cage, as shown in previous issues). Parker says "Doc Strange here thought because we were friends and all...maybe I should be here."

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but in recent Spiderman issues, we've seen that Doc Strange has figured out who Peter Parker is, (did Strange know BEFORE ASM #498-500?). Parker was always hesitant for Reed Richards to know, and Luke Cage he generally never had much to do with...

Anyway, the four other heroes tell Matt that he's gone too far. Yes, there's no more crime in Hell's Kitchen, but it's simply spread over to rest of the city is suffering from it. Matt tells them to take his approach: become a dictator like he has, (though he doesn't phrase it like that). Matt tells Peter to take over Queens, and for Luke to take over Harlem. So they just end up chastising each other, and basically, there's a falling out between them. It appears they weren't going to have anything to do with one another after this meeting.

Matt up and walks away, and as he leaves the park, he spots a van off to the side of the street. He quickly realizes it's an FBI survelience van. Inside, we see Agent Driver and other FBI agents monitoring him. They know he's spotted them, but they do nothing...

pgs. 18-22: Cut to some time later, but what I suspect is later that evening. Matt and Milla are walking through the streets at night, a thunderstorm raining down around them. The topic of conversation is Matt's meeting with the other heroes, (which leads me to believe it happened earlier in the day). Milla says not to worry about thier chastising him, he's doing the right thing.

Matt pauses, his senses picking up danger. He tells Milla to flee, and she does, reluctantly. Matt pulls out his billy club, turns to face the threat, as around the corner we see a group of dozen, (maybe over a hundred) thugs...slowly coming towards Murdock.

And that's how it ends.

My thoughts: The Ben Urich narrative will probably continue over the next 5 issues, till the end of the storyline, revealing where things stand as of the 'today' of pgs. 1 and 4.

However, where as Jeph believes that only a few months have passed in the context of where the flashback scenes are, I get the feeling that the main body of this story, (revolving around Matt arguing with the other heroes, and a short time later being attacked by the thugs) happens close to the one year anniversary that Ben mentions in the opening pages. I say this because on page 1, Ben notes, "Anyway, it's been a Hell of a week...(hell of a week...) It's been a Hell of a Year!"

Noting this story, (which Ben is relating to us), it's main portion is happening rather recently....
but we should probably wait and see how it all turns out by the end of this storyline...

References: Well, as noted above, after the 6 weeks of violence, Murdock is sporting a goatee. But is it a fake goatee? After all, as DD, he'd clearly show his goatee, as the DD mask doesn't hide facial hair. And in DD2 #51-55, (the Maya storyline) when Maya confronts Matt on the rooftops, either time we see DD has no facial hair...so it could be a fake goatee....or he shaves it off when fighting crime??? Or his puts make up over the hair, (it does appear to be a real short trimmed goatee).

Also, Paul, you noted that Maya had found time to become a playwright and a dancer and writer, (a 'storyteller' as the old Chief would say). Well, just to clarify, she was that already, as seen way back in DD2 9-15. She has been performing on stage in that storyline as well, but the point of DD 51-55 was that she had lost her passion for the arts...after her Vision Quest though, she started writing again, having created a play which Matt references he went and saw. By the end of DD#55, Maya seems to have become a noted figure in New York art society. So, yes, the general impression is that some time has passed between the scene of Maya's Vision Quest, and the scene of her and Matt meeting one last time on a rooftop, before going their seperate ways...

Other References: In the pages where Matt is confronted by his friends in the park, it appears to be warm weather outside. Several figures are wearing short sleeves in the park. Leaves are on the trees.

Hmmm...if they're wanting Matt to run for Mayor, when do candidates for Mayor in NYC usually announce their candidacy?

Hope this helps...now that the main part of the flashback storyline has started, (with Matt being attacked by 'a hundred thugs') I think events will stay together...and I also suspect they'll be close to the one year mark reference by Ben in this issue. 

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Doctor Strange and Peter Parker before ASM #500

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Posted by Don Campbell on January 23, 2004 at 12:39:19:

In Reply to: Chronology Review for DD2 #56 for the calender! posted by Kevin on January 22, 2004 at 23:55:27:

> Now correct me if I'm wrong, but in recent Spiderman issues, we've seen that Doc Strange has figured out who Peter Parker is, (did Strange know BEFORE ASM #498-500?).


I don't know if this is still valid but I believe that Strange has known Spider-Man's real identity since (at least) 1982's MARVEL TEAM-UP ANNUAL #5. On page 12, Strange and Spider-Man are about to enter a Mertz Rent-A-Car office. Since they're both in costume, Spider-Man asks Strange, "Do you really think these folks will rent us a set of their wheels?" The next panel shows the pair entering the office, seemingly dressed in street clothes, with Strange saying, "That will not be a problem, Peter!" Peter replies, "Nice trick, Doc! Hey--How'd you know my real name?" and Strange answers, "A lucky guess."

I'm not quite sure what happened in that panel. It may be that Strange transformed his and Peter's costumes into civilian clothes or maybe Strange just cast an spell making people see them as they would look if they were wearing normal clothes. Anyway, since Peter's "Nice trick" comment shows that he can clearly see what the spell did to Strange's appearance, Strange must also have been able to see Spider-Man's civilian appearance as Peter Parker. The fact that he called Peter by name is almost certainly NOT just a lucky guess. Strange probably learned Spider-Man's real identity on one of those occasions when he used the Eye of Agamotto to examine him.

Since this whole scene was rather obscure, I'm not sure how many people were aware that Strange has seemingly known that Peter Parker is Spider-Man for years. I'm assuming that the writer of those recent ASM issues didn't know. Offhand, I can't think of any other instances in which Strange is shown to know Peter's secret, so maybe it's not an "official" fact?

Don Campbell 

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Re: Chronology Review for DD2 #56 for the calender!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 24, 2004 at 14:15:00:
In Reply to: Chronology Review for DD2 #56 for the calender! 
posted by Kevin on January 22, 2004 at 23:55:27:

> Might as well go ahead and do a full fledged review, as this issue has been a point of contention as of late, (and it only came out on the market yesterday!)

Thank you, Kevin. I have comments below about my initial calendar placements about parts of this issue, so you know where I'm at so far.


> So they sit down and start talking, (Ben doing most of the talking) and Ben begins to go over the events of the last year. He notes today is "almost a year to the day when Matt Murdock took control of 'the Kitchen'".

I have the anniversary of DD2 50 happening on Sept. 21 of the year after the Kang War. This framing sequence of DD2 56 is tentatively placed on Sept. 19.


> pgs. 5-6: A two page splash showing a close up on an angry Daredevil smashing...something...a window maybe? It's metaphorical, showing DD when on an unprecidented crime fighting spree. The Ben Urick narrative continues, as we learn that after the events of DD#50, the next 6 weeks were a blitz by DD against the underworld of Hell's Kitchen. 

I have this on Friday, October 25 of the year of the Kang War, one day after Daredevil's rooftop meeting with Maya in DD2 52. Neither appearance involves a goatee.


> pg. 7: A one page splash page, showing Matt Murdock and Milla Donovan at a high society type party among the upper class of NYC.

I have this on Saturday, Sept. 2, a week after the scene of pages 5-6 -- time enough for a goatee to sprout.


> Ben notes that they figured out which buildings could be saved, and "And the rest of it went into a new library." 

> Note: Wouldn't it be great if we could tie that into the new Gwen Stacy library we saw Peter Parker opening around the ASM #51-54 arc, (the one with the undead Gamma Mobster?) Just a thought.

I appreciate the interest in continuity between titles. However, the library in ASM 54 was a school library, and I would presume it's in Queens, not Hell's Kitchen.


> pg. 9: Now we see the exact same street corner, AFTER DD2 #50, as Matt and Milla walk down the block happily arm in arm, a blue sky overhead. Everything looks renovated. The point is, Matt and Milla 'saved Hell's Kitchen'.

Placement is flexible here, assuming enough time is allowed for reconstruction. I stuck this on Tuesday, July 1 of the year after the Kang War.


> pg. 10-11 Now as the narrative continues, we see Matt sitting in his law office, being approached by figures from the Democrat party in NYC, asking him to run for mayor on thier party ticket. As Jeph mentioned, DD warns them that he's become a controversial figure as of late, but they want him to run because of that. The Urban Legend around Murdock fuels his popularity.

> This Democrat figure notes their party is going to "officially" ask him to run tomorrow at dinner. This was just a curtesy call. As he leaves, the sectretary says Matt has a phone call: "A Luke Cage on Line 7".

Last time around, I believe New York's mayoral primary was held the last Monday in September, with the election in November.


> Pgs. 12-17 Matt goes to the park, (presumably later that day, but could possibly be the next), to meet up with Reed Richards, Luke Cage, Peter Parker, and Dr. Strange, all of whom are out of uniform. The implication seems to be that Peter revealed his identity to all 3 of these guys recently. Matt asks what Parker's doing here with 'them', (showing Matt still has hostility towards Luke Cage, as shown in previous issues). Parker says "Doc Strange here thought because we were friends and all...maybe I should be here."

> Anyway, the four other heroes tell Matt that he's gone too far. Yes, there's no more crime in Hell's Kitchen, but it's simply spread over to rest of the city is suffering from it. Matt tells them to take his approach: become a dictator like he has, (though he doesn't phrase it like that). Matt tells Peter to take over Queens, and for Luke to take over Harlem. So they just end up chastising each other, and basically, there's a falling out between them. It appears they weren't going to have anything to do with one another after this meeting.

I have two reasons for placing this scene before FF3 68, the beginning of the storyline that leads to the scarring of Reed's face. #1) Reed's face is not scarred here. #2) I think Reed would more understandably chastise Matt for being a dictator *before* the scarred Reed took over Latveria in FF 503-506. If this scene in DD2 56 were to take place after "Authoritative Action," wouldn't there be some reference to the Latveria incident here (e.g. "You're a fine one to tell me about being a dictator, Richards!")

I have this scene taking place on Thursday, August 7 of the year after the Kang War, allowing enough time before the mayoral primary. However, if the primary ends up occurring in this story arc (before the first anniversary of DD2 50), we'll have some adjustments to make.

By the way, I have FF3 68 starting on "Monday," August 11.


> Also, Paul, you noted that Maya had found time to become a playwright and a dancer and writer, (a 'storyteller' as the old Chief would say). Well, just to clarify, she was that already, as seen way back in DD2 9-15. She has been performing on stage in that storyline as well, but the point of DD 51-55 was that she had lost her passion for the arts...after her Vision Quest though, she started writing again, having created a play which Matt references he went and saw. By the end of DD#55, Maya seems to have become a noted figure in New York art society. So, yes, the general impression is that some time has passed between the scene of Maya's Vision Quest, and the scene of her and Matt meeting one last time on a rooftop, before going their seperate ways...

I posit that this last scene in DD2 55 is a flash-forward that may occur after the current DD2 story arc. We'll have to wait and see if this holds up.


> Other References: In the pages where Matt is confronted by his friends in the park, it appears to be warm weather outside. Several figures are wearing short sleeves in the park. Leaves are on the trees.

These references fit with my calendar placements.


--Paul B. 

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Re: Chronology Review for DD2 #56 for the calender!
Posted by Kevin on January 24, 2004 at 21:35:41:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology Review for DD2 #56 for the calender! 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 24, 2004 at 14:15:00:

> > Might as well go ahead and do a full fledged review, as this issue has been a point of contention as of late, (and it only came out on the market yesterday!)

> Thank you, Kevin. I have comments below about my initial calendar placements about parts of this issue, so you know where I'm at so far.

No problem. I'll probably hold off on doing the rest of the issues for this story arc till it's over in 4 months, but if it causes any more points of contention in debating placement for stuff happening in Punisher, Spiderman, or Fantastic Four, I'll try and keep you informed on what's going on.

> 
> > So they sit down and start talking, (Ben doing most of the talking) and Ben begins to go over the events of the last year. He notes today is "almost a year to the day when Matt Murdock took control of 'the Kitchen'".

> I have the anniversary of DD2 50 happening on Sept. 21 of the year after the Kang War. This framing sequence of DD2 56 is tentatively placed on Sept. 19.

> 
> > pgs. 5-6: A two page splash showing a close up on an angry Daredevil smashing...something...a window maybe? It's metaphorical, showing DD when on an unprecidented crime fighting spree. The Ben Urick narrative continues, as we learn that after the events of DD#50, the next 6 weeks were a blitz by DD against the underworld of Hell's Kitchen. 

> I have this on Friday, October 25 of the year of the Kang War, one day after Daredevil's rooftop meeting with Maya in DD2 52. Neither appearance involves a goatee.

I was thinking along the same lines last night, actually. Maya says she say Milla walking out of Matt's office, but that doesn't mean she saw Matt there, during the day...remember, according to the narrative of this issue, Matt Murdock disappeared alltogether during those 6 weeks...so we could position this meeting with Maya right before Matt starts to grow the goatee...

> 
> > pg. 7: A one page splash page, showing Matt Murdock and Milla Donovan at a high society type party among the upper class of NYC.

> I have this on Saturday, Sept. 2, a week after the scene of pages 5-6 -- time enough for a goatee to sprout.

Do you mean Nov. 2nd? Just wanted to clarify...

> 
> > Ben notes that they figured out which buildings could be saved, and "And the rest of it went into a new library." 

> > Note: Wouldn't it be great if we could tie that into the new Gwen Stacy library we saw Peter Parker opening around the ASM #51-54 arc, (the one with the undead Gamma Mobster?) Just a thought.

> I appreciate the interest in continuity between titles. However, the library in ASM 54 was a school library, and I would presume it's in Queens, not Hell's Kitchen.

Ah, heck, you know me: Always looking for ways to link the Spiderman calender with the Daredevil calender...the only appearance Daredevil has had in the Spidey titles, (that I can think of) was in Peter Parker: Spiderman #41...I'm just looking for more ties, outside of DD's own title.


> 
> > Pgs. 12-17 Matt goes to the park, (presumably later that day, but could possibly be the next), to meet up with Reed Richards, Luke Cage, Peter Parker, and Dr. Strange, all of whom are out of uniform. The implication seems to be that Peter revealed his identity to all 3 of these guys recently. Matt asks what Parker's doing here with 'them', (showing Matt still has hostility towards Luke Cage, as shown in previous issues). Parker says "Doc Strange here thought because we were friends and all...maybe I should be here."

> > Anyway, the four other heroes tell Matt that he's gone too far. Yes, there's no more crime in Hell's Kitchen, but it's simply spread over to rest of the city is suffering from it. Matt tells them to take his approach: become a dictator like he has, (though he doesn't phrase it like that). Matt tells Peter to take over Queens, and for Luke to take over Harlem. So they just end up chastising each other, and basically, there's a falling out between them. It appears they weren't going to have anything to do with one another after this meeting.

> I have two reasons for placing this scene before FF3 68, the beginning of the storyline that leads to the scarring of Reed's face. #1) Reed's face is not scarred here. #2) I think Reed would more understandably chastise Matt for being a dictator *before* the scarred Reed took over Latveria in FF 503-506. If this scene in DD2 56 were to take place after "Authoritative Action," wouldn't there be some reference to the Latveria incident here (e.g. "You're a fine one to tell me about being a dictator, Richards!")

Yes, I'd have to agree in your analysis. Reed would seem like a hypocrite, trying to chastise Matt. The only way around it is if Reed's point of view during this meeting is, "Don't go down the dark side like I did in Latveria, Matt!"

> I have this scene taking place on Thursday, August 7 of the year after the Kang War, allowing enough time before the mayoral primary. However, if the primary ends up occurring in this story arc (before the first anniversary of DD2 50), we'll have some adjustments to make.

> By the way, I have FF3 68 starting on "Monday," August 11.


Sounds good...now let's hope it all works out. ;-)

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Re: Chronology Review for DD2 #56 for the calender!
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 24, 2004 at 22:10:29:
In Reply to: Re: Chronology Review for DD2 #56 for the calender! 
posted by Kevin on January 24, 2004 at 21:35:41:

> Do you mean Nov. 2nd? Just wanted to clarify...

Yup, Nov. 2. Sorry for the slip.


> Yes, I'd have to agree in your analysis. Reed would seem like a hypocrite, trying to chastise Matt. The only way around it is if Reed's point of view during this meeting is, "Don't go down the dark side like I did in Latveria, Matt!"

True, but because no mention was made at all of the Latverian incident, which would have been totally relevant here, DD2 56 does work much better before FF3 68.

Thanks again, Kevin.

--Paul B. 

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DD2 / Alias / CA4 / PUN6 / 6H ... ramblings.
Posted by Jeph! on January 27, 2004 at 23:53:58:
In Reply to: Re: DD2 #56 -- first impressions 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 22, 2004 at 21:35:01:

Subject line looks like code, doesn't it? I thought I'd try to differentiate from what's come before, so folks notice that I've actually replied to a post this far down.

Incidentally, who here reads the board by skimming for new posts, and who reads it by manually adjusting the URL up a number at a time? I do the latter...

> DD2 41-45 leads directly into DD2 46, and although there's a gap between pages 15 and 16 of DD2 46, it's probably not very long. That's noteworthy because have that ALIAS 18 tie-in with DD2 42 to deal with, and in turn, the reference in ALIAS 17 (immediately before) to the news of Cap's identity being revealed, in CA4 3

Heh. I just got my Alias v3 TPB in the mail today -- ripping good read, by the way -- and after turing this whole thing over and over in my head, I'm getting more okay with how far back PUN6 #33-37 need to be. I still don't LIKE it -- but the evidence grows. That Alias / Cap tie-in is a good one...

By the way, I think I noticed a temporal blip in DD2 and Alias ... from what I've read here, the Wjite Tiger's trial occured in June (or at least, his arrest was in June. The 19th, if I recall correctly.) The White Tiger trial was referenced as current in Alias #16, meaning it's June (or maybe early July by the time the trail started up). Yet when Jessica Jones calls Jessica Drew's office in Alias #17-FB, she gets a recorded message that says Drew is out of the country "for the month of April". Huh? Which is it, June/July or April?

(By the way, it strikes me that if the DD2 reference is right and it is early July in Alias #16-21, then it'd line up really well with everyone's wishes that the end of CA4 #1-6 occur on July 4th ... right?)

Eh, I'm just rambling now. Carry on.


> Additionally, placing DD2 50 earlier gives us more freedom to place DD2 56 before FF2 68 -- *before* the plot that led to Reed's scarring, rather than leaving the placement of DD2 56 to some imagined point in the future after the healing of Reed's face (and who knows when and if that will happen).

How are you thinking of placing Reed's ASM2 appearances? Pre-scar, or hoping for post-scar?


> Admittedly, there are discrepencies in the temporal references of Six Hours. We should accept either the sunset reference or the summer camp reference; we can't have both. For the sun to set before 6:15 PM in that part of the world, we talking about a placement before mid-March. That's inconsistent with the green trees and seemingly warm weather in Canada. I determined that the "summer camp" reference was a stronger case for that reason. And again, as you know, my concern with the relative publication order of stand-alone mini-series is small. I know the MCP will end up reflecting a different order for this than I propose.

Unfortunately, I suspect you're right. Rargh.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: DD2 / Alias / CA4 / PUN6 / 6H ... ramblings.
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 28, 2004 at 09:44:56:
In Reply to: DD2 / Alias / CA4 / PUN6 / 6H ... ramblings. 
posted by Jeph! on January 27, 2004 at 23:53:58:

>Yet when Jessica Jones calls Jessica Drew's office in Alias #17-FB, she gets a recorded message that says Drew is out of the country "for the month of April". Huh? Which is it, June/July or April?

Maybe her trip abroad vastly overran due to some unpublished adventure. Or maybe she just pressed the wrong button on her answerphone and left the wrong message switched on. 

			*	*	*

Re: DD2 / Alias / CA4 / PUN6 / 6H ... ramblings.
Posted by Jeph! on January 28, 2004 at 12:29:57:
In Reply to: Re: DD2 / Alias / CA4 / PUN6 / 6H ... ramblings. 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 28, 2004 at 09:44:56:

> >Yet when Jessica Jones calls Jessica Drew's office in Alias #17-FB, she gets a recorded message that says Drew is out of the country "for the month of April". Huh? Which is it, June/July or April?

> Maybe her trip abroad vastly overran due to some unpublished adventure. Or maybe she just pressed the wrong button on her answerphone and left the wrong message switched on.

Well, she did mention returning from being out of the country in #20 ... I'm thinking, "her trip ran long".

Either way, I'm just doing my "inherent folly of trusting calendar references" nitpicking again. Both issues were written by Bendis, were written to overlap, and still the time of year isn't kept straight.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: DD2 / Alias / CA4 / PUN6 / 6H ... ramblings.
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 28, 2004 at 21:13:54:
In Reply to: DD2 / Alias / CA4 / PUN6 / 6H ... ramblings. 
posted by Jeph! on January 27, 2004 at 23:53:58:

> Incidentally, who here reads the board by skimming for new posts, and who reads it by manually adjusting the URL up a number at a time? I do the latter...

I do the former.


> > DD2 41-45 leads directly into DD2 46, and although there's a gap between pages 15 and 16 of DD2 46, it's probably not very long. That's noteworthy because have that ALIAS 18 tie-in with DD2 42 to deal with, and in turn, the reference in ALIAS 17 (immediately before) to the news of Cap's identity being revealed, in CA4 3

> Heh. I just got my Alias v3 TPB in the mail today -- ripping good read, by the way -- and after turing this whole thing over and over in my head, I'm getting more okay with how far back PUN6 #33-37 need to be. I still don't LIKE it -- but the evidence grows. That Alias / Cap tie-in is a good one...

> By the way, I think I noticed a temporal blip in DD2 and Alias ... from what I've read here, the Wjite Tiger's trial occured in June (or at least, his arrest was in June. The 19th, if I recall correctly.) The White Tiger trial was referenced as current in Alias #16, meaning it's June (or maybe early July by the time the trail started up). Yet when Jessica Jones calls Jessica Drew's office in Alias #17-FB, she gets a recorded message that says Drew is out of the country "for the month of April". Huh? Which is it, June/July or April?

Actually, Hector Ayala's arrest was "July 19th" (a date referenced twice by the prosecuting attorney in DD2 39). After his arrest, Hector spent "a few months" in jail before his trial (as Matt notes in DD2 40). I just read DD2 40 for myself today and discovered that "few months" reference. I'm going to have to see if that could possibly work with the "July 19th" reference. Using both the calendar and temporal references would place the trial in October. Until now, I've had the trial occurring in August, a month after the arrest. Moving things to October would move CA4 3 even further from July 4 (given the tie-in to ALIAS, which in turn ties into DD2), and I'd need to come up with a post-Labor Day excuse for the fireworks celebration in CA4 3 (Columbus Day?). It would also move that year-long period after DD2 50 a couple of months further into the future. That, in turn, would bump FF3 68 forward. Like I say, I'll need to ponder this one.


> (By the way, it strikes me that if the DD2 reference is right and it is early July in Alias #16-21, then it'd line up really well with everyone's wishes that the end of CA4 #1-6 occur on July 4th ... right?)

Um...the reference isn't right (see above).


> Eh, I'm just rambling now. Carry on.

> 
> > Additionally, placing DD2 50 earlier gives us more freedom to place DD2 56 before FF2 68 -- *before* the plot that led to Reed's scarring, rather than leaving the placement of DD2 56 to some imagined point in the future after the healing of Reed's face (and who knows when and if that will happen).

> How are you thinking of placing Reed's ASM2 appearances? Pre-scar, or hoping for post-scar?

Definitely pre-FF3 68.

> 
> > Admittedly, there are discrepencies in the temporal references of Six Hours. We should accept either the sunset reference or the summer camp reference; we can't have both. For the sun to set before 6:15 PM in that part of the world, we talking about a placement before mid-March. That's inconsistent with the green trees and seemingly warm weather in Canada. I determined that the "summer camp" reference was a stronger case for that reason. And again, as you know, my concern with the relative publication order of stand-alone mini-series is small. I know the MCP will end up reflecting a different order for this than I propose.

> Unfortunately, I suspect you're right. Rargh.

Yeah. Again I'm going with preponderance of temporal references in the story itself. And given the lack of concern for continuity expressed by some Marvel creators lately (see other thread), I'm even *less* concerned about relative publication order between titles, because the creators obviously don't pay much attention to the timing of their stories relative to those of other writers.

And, like I've said, some writers intentionally have concurrently published stories happening at different points in time -- witness this week's Mystique relative to New X-Men.

--Paul

			*	*	*

Re: DD2 / Alias / CA4 / PUN6 / 6H ... ramblings.
Posted by Jeph! on January 28, 2004 at 23:09:03:
In Reply to: Re: DD2 / Alias / CA4 / PUN6 / 6H ... ramblings. 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 28, 2004 at 21:13:54:

> > I think I noticed a temporal blip in DD2 and Alias ... Which is it, June/July or April?

> Actually, Hector Ayala's arrest was "July 19th"

Hey, I got the 19th part right. From memory. Whee!

> Using both the calendar and temporal references would place the trial in October.

Well, what I'm asking is, given that Alias #17 claims that it's "April" and DD2 states that it's "months" after "July 19th" ... and both references come from Bendis, in books that he KNEW interlocked ... what did you do? How do you reconcile that? And what does that tell you about how much Bendis cares about the references he includes in his work?


> It would also move that year-long period after DD2 50 a couple of months further into the future.

Hey, that works for me! :-)


> And, like I've said, some writers intentionally have concurrently published stories happening at different points in time -- witness this week's Mystique relative to New X-Men.

Why, what happens?

I'm fairly sure there's an editorially-imposed gag order on setting stories after X #150, until X #154 comes out. Weapon X is the only book I've seen try it, and somehow issue #16 got itself delayed two months -- and even so, it still managed to spoil the "John Sublime is still alive" bit from X #152 by a week.

The April solicits make it fairly clear that almost EVERY book that month takes place "in the shocking wake of Planet X", so right now I'm treating everything before the April issues as pre-X #142 -- which is going to mess up my placement of Weapon X #15-16, unless Paige and Archangel get back together by the end of the current Uncanny arc.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: DD2 / Alias / CA4 / PUN6 / 6H ... ramblings.
Posted by Kevin on January 29, 2004 at 00:33:33:
In Reply to: Re: DD2 / Alias / CA4 / PUN6 / 6H ... ramblings. 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 28, 2004 at 21:13:54:


> Actually, Hector Ayala's arrest was "July 19th" (a date referenced twice by the prosecuting attorney in DD2 39). After his arrest, Hector spent "a few months" in jail before his trial (as Matt notes in DD2 40). I just read DD2 40 for myself today and discovered that "few months" reference. I'm going to have to see if that could possibly work with the "July 19th" reference. Using both the calendar and temporal references would place the trial in October. Until now, I've had the trial occurring in August, a month after the arrest. Moving things to October would move CA4 3 even further from July 4 (given the tie-in to ALIAS, which in turn ties into DD2), and I'd need to come up with a post-Labor Day excuse for the fireworks celebration in CA4 3 (Columbus Day?). It would also move that year-long period after DD2 50 a couple of months further into the future. That, in turn, would bump FF3 68 forward. Like I say, I'll need to ponder this one.

Huh. I should've noticed that reference. Damn, I'm usually better than that, (passage of time references are usually the ones I notice first).

Well, "a few months" is a rather broad term...in my mind, it could be as little as two months...so you had it in August originally...now you could put it in Sept. And as DD #41-50 happen in short order, you could then simply move DD#50 down by just a few weeks, to a point in October, (and maybe that wouldn't throw things out of whack so bad)...

But how would this prevent CAP4 #4 from happening on July 4th? (and by the way, originally, CAP4 #1-3 happened on Easter...but I think they were moved closer to #4, which has the July 4th reference). I don't have the Alias issue, but as I recall, it's just someone talking in the background, saying, "So who's under the mask now?" Couldn't that make for any point after Cap's unveiling his identity? It doesn't have to go immediately after CAP4 #3...sorry, correct me if I'm wrong on the CAP/ALIAS connection...

Yeah, this whole DD2/Alias/CA4/PUN6 etc. is going to take a while to resolve, isn't it? ;-)

			*	*	*

Re: DD2 / Alias / CA4 / PUN6 / 6H ... ramblings.
Posted by Jeph! on January 29, 2004 at 03:51:25:
In Reply to: Re: DD2 / Alias / CA4 / PUN6 / 6H ... ramblings. 
posted by Kevin on January 29, 2004 at 00:33:33:

> I don't have the Alias issue, but as I recall, it's just someone talking in the background, saying, "So who's under the mask now?" Couldn't that make for any point after Cap's unveiling his identity? It doesn't have to go immediately after CAP4 #3...sorry, correct me if I'm wrong on the CAP/ALIAS connection...

Yeah, no, you're wrong actually. :-( The "who's under the mask now?" line is from a rumor website in an issue of "Deadline".

The Alias reference is actually pretty explicit -- one of Jessica Jones' supporting characters, a superhero nerd, bursts into her office and asks excitedly what she thinks of Cap's unmasking. When she asks what he's talking about, he says "it was on the news".

The past tense means it *could* be a bit in the past, sure, but this kid's a big hero nerd -- he's talking about it like it's a fairly current event.

> Yeah, this whole DD2/Alias/CA4/PUN6 etc. is going to take a while to resolve, isn't it? ;-)

Well, only if you care about attaching it to a calendar. ::grin::

-Jeph!
where's my beer, woman? 

			*	*	*

Re: DD2 / Alias / CA4 / PUN6 / 6H ... ramblings.
Posted by Russ on January 29, 2004 at 13:18:27:
In Reply to: Re: DD2 / Alias / CA4 / PUN6 / 6H ... ramblings. 
posted by Jeph! on January 29, 2004 at 03:51:25:

> -Jeph!
> where's my beer, woman?

Where are my doughnuts, York? And Dunkin' don't cut it. They gotta be Krispy Kremes...

			*	*	*

Re: DD2 / Alias / CA4 / PUN6 / 6H ... ramblings.
Posted by Jeph! on January 29, 2004 at 16:18:43:
In Reply to: Re: DD2 / Alias / CA4 / PUN6 / 6H ... ramblings. 
posted by Russ on January 29, 2004 at 13:18:27:

What? I mailed those to you ages ago! Are you telling me you haven't gotten them yet?

Curse you, Pony Express...

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: DD2 / Alias / CA4 / PUN6 / 6H ... ramblings.
Posted by Kevin on January 29, 2004 at 16:36:51:
In Reply to: Re: DD2 / Alias / CA4 / PUN6 / 6H ... ramblings. 
posted by Jeph! on January 29, 2004 at 03:51:25:

> > I don't have the Alias issue, but as I recall, it's just someone talking in the background, saying, "So who's under the mask now?" Couldn't that make for any point after Cap's unveiling his identity? It doesn't have to go immediately after CAP4 #3...sorry, correct me if I'm wrong on the CAP/ALIAS connection...

> Yeah, no, you're wrong actually. :-( The "who's under the mask now?" line is from a rumor website in an issue of "Deadline".

> The Alias reference is actually pretty explicit -- one of Jessica Jones' supporting characters, a superhero nerd, bursts into her office and asks excitedly what she thinks of Cap's unmasking. When she asks what he's talking about, he says "it was on the news".

> The past tense means it *could* be a bit in the past, sure, but this kid's a big hero nerd -- he's talking about it like it's a fairly current event.

Hmmm..yeah, that sounds like it'd have to be placed closer to CAP's actual unmasking...


> > Yeah, this whole DD2/Alias/CA4/PUN6 etc. is going to take a while to resolve, isn't it? ;-)

> Well, only if you care about attaching it to a calendar. ::grin::

Now what fun would it be if we didn't strive to didn't try to make everything fit on an actual lunar calender? 

If we could make that whole Kang War thing work, then how hard can this be? ;-) 

			*	*	*

Re: DD2 #56 -- first impressions
Posted by Antonio Gavio on January 22, 2004 at 18:50:17:
In Reply to: Re: DD2 #56 -- first impressions 
posted by Jeph! on January 21, 2004 at 22:42:30:

> And since I'm pushing for PUN6 #33-37 to occur somewhere closer to their publication date order, at least in terms of Wolvie's chronology, this to me is a good thing.

> By the way, Antonio, if you're reading, where are you trying to place PUN6 #33-37 in Spidey's chronology? Does the shortening of the gap, and the opportunity to make it more current, help you out?

At this point it's in the air; Spidey's appearance there doesn't present any problems, the problem for me is that I already have other books placed at the dates Paul is suggesting for PUN6 #33-37. So if you guys can tell me around what time of the year you are placing W2 186 or Six Hours and DD2 50 (or any prior Daredevil issue) I'll find a date in between for PUN6 #33-37 in the Spidey calendar and let you guys know so you can approve it or disregard it.

			*	*	*

Re: DD2 #56 -- first impressions
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 22, 2004 at 21:45:17:
In Reply to: Re: DD2 #56 -- first impressions 
posted by Antonio Gavio on January 22, 2004 at 18:50:17:

> > And since I'm pushing for PUN6 #33-37 to occur somewhere closer to their publication date order, at least in terms of Wolvie's chronology, this to me is a good thing.

> > By the way, Antonio, if you're reading, where are you trying to place PUN6 #33-37 in Spidey's chronology? Does the shortening of the gap, and the opportunity to make it more current, help you out?

> At this point it's in the air; Spidey's appearance there doesn't present any problems, the problem for me is that I already have other books placed at the dates Paul is suggesting for PUN6 #33-37. So if you guys can tell me around what time of the year you are placing W2 186 or Six Hours and DD2 50 (or any prior Daredevil issue) I'll find a date in between for PUN6 #33-37 in the Spidey calendar and let you guys know so you can approve it or disregard it.


Well, FWIW, here's my current stab at calendar placement of the issues in question:

W2 186 -- July 30

DD2 41 -- Aug 30
DD2 42 -- Sept 1-2 (tie-in to ALIAS 18)
DD2 43 -- Sept 2
DD2 44 -- Sept 2
DD2 45 -- Sept 3-4
DD2 46 (1-15) -- Sept 4-5

PUN6 33 -- Sept 7
PUN6 34 -- Sept 7
PUN6 35 -- Sept 7
PUN6 36 (1-13) -- Sept 7

PUN6 36 (14-22) -- Sept 15
PUN6 37 (1-17) -- Sept 15

DD2 46 (16-21) -- Sept 20
DD2 48 -- Sept 20
DD2 49 -- Sept 20
DD2 50 -- Sept 21

SIX HOURS -- the following June 13!


--Paul

			*	*	*

Weapon X #15-17, Uncanny #437-438
Posted by Jeph! on January 21, 2004 at 16:42:09:

I'm surprised that nobody's flagged this up yet. This month's Weapon X #16 showed scenes of Weapon X agents monitoring the events of New X-Men #150 (Fantomex attacking Magneto), making it the first confirmable sighting of a post-X #150 X-title!

In this arc, Chamber fakes a defection into Weapon X -- and various X-Men cameo, including Husk and Angel, who are still being portrayed as a couple.

Now, in UX #437, Husk and Angel break up. This indicates that UX #437-onward occur after WX #15-17 -- meaning, we may also have our first post-X #150 Uncanny issue!

In WX #15 and UX #437, we see the mansion still standing -- but it may have simply been rebuilt. Importantly, though, we DON'T see Prof. X -- so we don't know if he's standing or crippled at this point.

Now, several things could happen to blow this theory -- Husk and Angel may get back together by the end of the UX arc, it may turn out that Chamber spent a long time in jail, and WX #15 occured before X #150 while WX #16 occured after -- etc etc. And X #150-152 are steamrolling quite obviously towards the "temporal reset button" ending, which may erase X #146-150 in their entirety.

But if things DO hold together, preliminary indications are that UX #437, finally, occurs after X #150.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Weapon X #15-17, Uncanny #437-438
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 21, 2004 at 21:58:28:
In Reply to: Weapon X #15-17, Uncanny #437-438 
posted by Jeph! on January 21, 2004 at 16:42:09:

> I'm surprised that nobody's flagged this up yet. This month's Weapon X #16 showed scenes of Weapon X agents monitoring the events of New X-Men #150 (Fantomex attacking Magneto), making it the first confirmable sighting of a post-X #150 X-title!

I haven't brought it up because it seemed pretty straightforward and I had no questions about it. But yes, WX 16 on occur after X 150.


> In this arc, Chamber fakes a defection into Weapon X -- and various X-Men cameo, including Husk and Angel, who are still being portrayed as a couple.

> Now, in UX #437, Husk and Angel break up. This indicates that UX #437-onward occur after WX #15-17 -- meaning, we may also have our first post-X #150 Uncanny issue!

You know something? I picked up UX 438 today, but haven't read it yet, and your post just made me notice that I never picked up UX 437! Gotta get back to the comic shop.


> In WX #15 and UX #437, we see the mansion still standing -- but it may have simply been rebuilt. Importantly, though, we DON'T see Prof. X -- so we don't know if he's standing or crippled at this point.

> Now, several things could happen to blow this theory -- Husk and Angel may get back together by the end of the UX arc, it may turn out that Chamber spent a long time in jail, and WX #15 occured before X #150 while WX #16 occured after -- etc etc. And X #150-152 are steamrolling quite obviously towards the "temporal reset button" ending, which may erase X #146-150 in their entirety.

Well, I do currently have X 138 (from page 10) through X 150 occurring between WX2 15 and 16. Chamber doesn't spend long in prison, though; I have him being remade by Weapon X during the time that string of X issues are happening. I figured that the process to give Chamber a new face took some time, including time for recovery and healing.


> But if things DO hold together, preliminary indications are that UX #437, finally, occurs after X #150.

And it could be a while after, given the reconstruction of Xavier's. Note also that X 151-FB shows Emma trying to convince Scott to re-start the school, which seems to presume a reconstructed facility. Temporal references place that flashback in autumn, a few months after X 150. That would seem to be right. It's unclear at this point whether UX 437 occurs before or after X 151-FB. Temporal references might come in handy for this. Just gotta get that UX 437!

--Paul

			*	*	*

Chamber note
Posted by Jeph! on January 22, 2004 at 03:29:05:
In Reply to: Re: Weapon X #15-17, Uncanny #437-438 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 21, 2004 at 21:58:28:

> Well, I do currently have X 138 (from page 10) through X 150 occurring between WX2 15 and 16. Chamber doesn't spend long in prison, though; I have him being remade by Weapon X during the time that string of X issues are happening. I figured that the process to give Chamber a new face took some time, including time for recovery and healing.

Technically, GEN X @'97 established that Jono's *entire body* is made of solid psionic energy (much like Wonder Man is made entirely of ionic energy). I don't see his new body as the result of an extreme surgical procedure, so much as the implanting of a device that allows him to control his energy emmisions and assume human form. Jono assumed full human form for a brief period in that Gen X annual, but couldn't hold the shape -- I assume the device in his chest simply allows him to mentally hold himself to a human shape.

If that's the case, then the procedure could conceivably have taken mere minutes.

> 
> > But if things DO hold together, preliminary indications are that UX #437, finally, occurs after X #150.

> And it could be a while after, given the reconstruction of Xavier's.

Agreed. In WX #16-17, Wolvie doesn't seem all that distraught over Jean's death, and in X #150 he was insane with rage.

> Temporal references place that flashback [X #151] in autumn, a few months after X 150.

Well, c'mon. It's a graveyard. They're always drawn with swirling moody dead leaves, no matter the season. (Also, there were autumn-ish leaves in NM2 #7 ... perhaps both sets of leaves occur in summer, the result of a cold snap?)

> It's unclear at this point whether UX 437 occurs before or after X 151-FB.

I get the feeling it'll be retroactively wiped out by the end of X #154. Advance solicits for W2 #12 have Phoenix cameoing... :-/

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Rebooting reality
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 22, 2004 at 07:26:51:
In Reply to: Chamber note 
posted by Jeph! on January 22, 2004 at 03:29:05:

> I get the feeling it'll be retroactively wiped out by the end of X #154. Advance solicits for W2 #12 have Phoenix cameoing... :-/

Between this and Thor, I have the dreaded feeling that we're in for a real chronology challenge here. Makes me hesitate to post any calendar for another few months... :-o

--Paul B

			*	*	*

Pearla
Posted by SQUEAK on January 22, 2004 at 10:39:17:

Good morning:
Your Pearla entry has at least two different mistakes. I've been rereading my old FFs recently and after finding her in FF 16 and 284 (and already being familiar with her from the MTIO 87 story, which I'd previously wrongly assumed was her only appearance), I decided to check your list for other appearances. She does not appear in flashback in FF Annual 17, despite what you list, and you don't have her FF Vol 1 issue 16 appearance listed (I assume the missing FF Unlimited appearance is because that's in your "gap").

In any case, if you check out the Unofficial Appendix, they have a Pearla page for her there which matches with what I've found so far. 

			*	*	*

Re: Pearla
Posted by SQUEAK on January 22, 2004 at 10:41:07:
In Reply to: Pearla 
posted by SQUEAK on January 22, 2004 at 10:39:17:

My apologies, I didn't know HTML wouldn't work here_ I tried to provide you a link and failed. The address for that Pearla page is: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/pearlasa.htm

			*	*	*

MORBIUS title - keyless?
Posted by Jamie Tarquini on January 23, 2004 at 08:36:33:

Hello! First of all, this site ROCKS! Thanks for putting in the time and effort. 

Question - in going through Spidey's appearrances, there is a code listed called "MORBIUS" but there is no title for that code listed in the key. Can you tell me which title it referrs to? I'm assuming it's the MORBIUS: THE LIVING VAMPIRE from '93, which I know, falls in Gap #2. I just thought I'd throw it out there that it's not on the key.

Keep up the good work guys! :) 

			*	*	*

Bill and Ted (as in Keanu Reeves) may be canonical, since Fight-Man showed up in Soldier X
Posted by John McDonagh on January 23, 2004 at 15:02:06:

Bill and Ted's Excellent Comic Book may become canonical, since Fight-Man first appeared there, and
he has since appeaerd in Soldier X. 

			*	*	*

finding issues
Posted by poetdowns on January 24, 2004 at 04:00:18:

Okay, i have x-men #108 which says "dream's end part 4 of 4" but the previous issues (105, 106, 107) don't seem to be part of the storyline.
Can someone please tell me which comix are "dream's end 1 thru 3?
Thanks,
Poet 

			*	*	*

Dream's End Parts 1-3
Posted by Kman00001 on January 24, 2004 at 05:01:22:
In Reply to: finding issues 
posted by poetdowns on January 24, 2004 at 04:00:18:

Part 1 was Uncanny X-men #388
Part 2 was Cable #87
Part 3 was Bishop: The Last X-man #16 

			*	*	*

RICK BARRON...BENNY BECKLEY,,,BINARY
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 24, 2004 at 11:02:18:

new entries marked **


BARRON, RICK

**VSS 1/2
PPTSSSS 1/3
WOSMSS 1/3


BECKLEY, BENNY

**COMET 1 (3p3 4p4) pre-explosion
**M/CP 52-FB (2p2-2p3) moment of explosion
**COMET 1 (6p2 7p5) post explosion
**M/CP 52-FB (2p4) graveyard
**COMET 1 (22p1 22p10) kidnapped
**M/CP 52-FB (2p5) arrive at camp
**COMET 2 (11p6 15p1) until moms death
**M/CP 52-FB (2p7) toasted mom
**COMET 2 (15p516p1) after moms death
**M/CP 52-FB (3p1) early exam
**COMET 3 tortured and weakened
**COMET 4 (9p1) final treatment ordered
**COMET 5 (11p3 18p1) end stage; death
**M/CP 52-FB (3p2) psychic awareness
**COMET 5 (18p2 19p3) awake and reacts with anger
**M/CP 52-FB (3p3) awareness of power
**COMET 5 (20p1 21p2) attacks Dr. Fishler, rampages
**M/CP 52-FB (3p4) cant escape the trauma
**COMET 5 (22) encounters father; collapses
**COMET 6 
**M/CP 51/2
**M/CP 52/2
**M/CP 53/2
COMET5 7


BINARY/CAROL SUSAN JANE DANVERS

CM 1
**CM 2
CM 3


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#151

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benny beckley correction
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 24, 2004 at 11:04:09:
In Reply to: RICK BARRON...BENNY BECKLEY,,,BINARY 
posted by Arthur Stein on January 24, 2004 at 11:02:18:

That last entry should read CM5 7

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Thor: Godstorm
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 24, 2004 at 14:28:00:

I could use some help in placing Thor: Godstorm -- more specifically the first flash-forward* in issue #2. I have issues #2 and #3, but not #1.

(*The framing sequence of the mini-series is set in the Viking Age.)

Here are clues to the placement of the first flash-forward in issue #2:

Jane Foster is a nurse working for Don Blake. That places this before T 136, in which Jane goes to work for Keith Kincaid and leaves the series as a regular character.

Geirrodur notes that Thor "bested my champion Ulik in battle." Ulik's first published appearance was in T 137-139, and I presume Thor whupped him in T 139.

So, the flash-forward must occur before T 136 and after T 139. Whoops. How can we make sense of this?

Well, is it clear that Thor meets Ulik for the very first time in T 137-139, or is there room for a possible previous battle? T 137 is Ulik's first entry in the MCP, but could there have been an unpublished encounter between Thor and Ulik sometime before T 136?

This flash-forward is supposed to occur shortly after another flash-forward in issue #1, in which the Avengers are supposed to have appeared. Their presence may offer other clues about placement, but I don't have the issue. Can anyone fill me in?

The second flash-forward in Thor: Godstorm #2 and the flash-forward in Thor: Godstorm #3 are set during Jake Olson's stint as Thor. Placement within that time frame seems fairly flexible.

--Paul B. 

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Re: Thor: Godstorm
Posted by Mart F on January 24, 2004 at 23:25:07:
In Reply to: Thor: Godstorm 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 24, 2004 at 14:28:00:

(Fortive me for not pointing out where this helps placement, I haven't read Avengers in a long, long time and don't have any at hand, so I can't give you a placement.)

In the flashforward, the Avengers are battling 'The Weather-Maker'

The Avengers consist of: Giant-Man, Captain A, Thor, Wasp and Iron Man.

Points of note: Halfway through the battle, Thor is summoned by Odin, saying that the Trolls have challenged Asgard's right of passage through the nine worlds.

The Weather-Maker is holding a woman named Maureen captive, and when she is mortally wounded he takes her to Jane Foster for help, Jane Foster at the time is working for Dr.Blake. The book also makes a point of Thor waiting until Jane leaves the room before transforming into his human form.
The story teller says "It was not long before these events that Odin and Thor quarreled, and Thor was changed to mortal form."
Thor is then forbidden from returning to Midgard ever again after failing to return to Asgard before sundown.

Hope this helps. 

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Re: Thor: Godstorm
Posted by RLG on January 25, 2004 at 09:25:26:
In Reply to: Re: Thor: Godstorm 
posted by Mart F on January 24, 2004 at 23:25:07:

Paul,

I agree with Mart's synopsis of the story. The Avengers line up is also as indicated. A couple of (unfortunate) points of interest:

1) Iron Man's face plate is the classic "pointy one" that he last used in AVENGERS #5 & TALES OF SUSPENSE #53. 

2) Although Giant-Man's costume is consistant with Iron Man's of that era, he DOES NOT have the vertical stripes over the ear section of his mask.

3) The Wasp also is in proper costume, but wears her pointy helmet (I believe she quit wearing that before Captain America joined the team.)

 My fisrt stab at placing this story put it in Mid-December - Early February gap between the pages of AVENGERS #5. However, upon reading issue #2 and seeing Peter Parker with Gwen Stacy, Ulik, etc.. I gave up trying to place it.

 It is POSSIBLE to claim that Godstorm merged with Cartstairs NOT while Thor was fighting back the Trolls, but a couple of years later, thus creating a gap between issue #1 & #2. To do so, you would have to ignore ALL references to issue #1 being "yesterday" not to mention creating two seperate Troll battles (the one in which Thor is summons back home at the end of issue #1 and the one seen at the beginning of issue #2.)

 It is also possible to discount Gwen's appearance as just some blonde who Peter knows - he never mentions her name. The "Ulik" problem I can't help on since I don't have the Thor issues from that period.

 A third option would be to place it in the non canon bin. That's my personal vote. At the time it cost me $7.00+ to learn that this was just another attempt of Marvel to "go back in time" in order to please some artists desire to draw Gwen Stacy and classic Iron Man.

 In fact, this title was one of the "last straws" for me. I noticed a recent debate over whether KINGPIN and CAGE were canon or not. If I may offer a suggestion, if ANY story Marvel puts out has to go through impossible hoops to fit into chronlogy, this site ought to not only ignore it, but have a separate page of non-canon titles and why they are not - sort of a "buy at your own risk" page.

Maybe, if Marvel notices that non-canon posing as canon titles do not sell, they will either stop trying to pawn off this junk or at the very least insist that their writers do some homework (at this site) before starting these projects. This problem goes way beyond the "Tigra appearance during Atlantis Attacks" mix-up.

- RLG

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Re: Thor: Godstorm
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 25, 2004 at 15:14:38:
In Reply to: Re: Thor: Godstorm 
posted by RLG on January 25, 2004 at 09:25:26:

Okay, the costume references do help with placements, although they could be rationalized if stronger references contradict them.

But I'm inclined to agree with the placement you suggest, RLG. I'd place this between the first part of A 5 and TOS 52, based largely on Iron Man's armor and Cap's presence. The anomaly in Giant-Man's costume could be chalked up to artist error, and the Wasp could have switched back to the pointy helmet, as we know she always changed her costumes for the sake of fashion.

As for Peter Parker and Gwen Stacy, who appear in Godstorm #2... I did forget to mention them in my first post. Peter and Gwen did not meet until long after the original Avengers left the team, and given the prominent role of the Avengers compared to the one-panel appearance of Peter and Gwen, I'd say that the Avengers determine chronological placement.

So how do we deal with Peter and Gwen? From the way they're drawn, they're obviously meant to be Peter and Gwen, and although Gwen is unnamed, she does call Peter by his first name. My inclination, if this story were to be considered canon, is to discount the appearance of both characters. Given the above placement relative to Avengers chronology, the flash-forward in Godstorm would occur between ASM 10 and 11, and it would be a bit out of character for Peter Parker to make the appearance he makes in Godstorm at this point in his life; he's really shown as acting like the cooler, college Peter, not the high school nerd. I would propose that we have an appearance by "Peter" (last name unknown) and his companion, an unnamed blonde.


> >> It is POSSIBLE to claim that Godstorm merged with Cartstairs NOT while Thor was fighting back the Trolls, but a couple of years later, thus creating a gap between issue #1 & #2. To do so, you would have to ignore ALL references to issue #1 being "yesterday" not to mention creating two seperate Troll battles (the one in which Thor is summons back home at the end of issue #1 and the one seen at the beginning of issue #2.)

I think separating the two events stretches things a bit. I'm inclined to take the "yesterday" reference at face value.


> >> It is also possible to discount Gwen's appearance as just some blonde who Peter knows - he never mentions her name. The "Ulik" problem I can't help on since I don't have the Thor issues from that period.

The Ulik issue remains. Is it likely, or even possible, that Thor and Ulik could have met and fought sometime before T 136?


> >> A third option would be to place it in the non canon bin. That's my personal vote. At the time it cost me $7.00+ to learn that this was just another attempt of Marvel to "go back in time" in order to please some artists desire to draw Gwen Stacy and classic Iron Man.

I share your feelings on this, but I wouldn't give up too easily. I'd like to consider things canon and explain inconsistencies as much as possible. The Kingpin mini-series had problems that were too numerous and too major to consider canon, but Godstorm might be salvageable. The "hoops" may not be "impossible."


> >> In fact, this title was one of the "last straws" for me. I noticed a recent debate over whether KINGPIN and CAGE were canon or not. If I may offer a suggestion, if ANY story Marvel puts out has to go through impossible hoops to fit into chronlogy, this site ought to not only ignore it, but have a separate page of non-canon titles and why they are not - sort of a "buy at your own risk" page.

I understand your frustration completely, and posting non-canon titles would be a good service, as has been indicated in previous threads.


> >>Maybe, if Marvel notices that non-canon posing as canon titles do not sell, they will either stop trying to pawn off this junk or at the very least insist that their writers do some homework (at this site) before starting these projects. This problem goes way beyond the "Tigra appearance during Atlantis Attacks" mix-up.

Despite our interest in (some would say obsession with) continuity, I can't say that Marvel's disregard for it would result in commercial (or artistic) failure. I'm not sure that the majority of current and potential Marvel readers out there cares all that much. 
:-(

But on the other hand, I don't believe that attention to continuity would be an obstacle to commercial gain or artistic expression. I just think the creators don't want to put the effort into things that their predecessors did. At least Marvel *cared* when they made a continuity blunder like Tigra in Atlantis Attacks. Now they're more apt to say, "Screw it. Did we sell enough copies? Are creators satisfied with their work?"

--Paul

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Re: Thor: Godstorm
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 26, 2004 at 18:50:50:
In Reply to: Re: Thor: Godstorm 
posted by RLG on January 25, 2004 at 09:25:26:

> >>Maybe, if Marvel notices that non-canon posing as canon titles do not sell, they will either stop trying to pawn off this junk or at the very least insist that their writers do some homework (at this site) before starting these projects. 

Not going to happen.

Historically, when a miniseries was promoted as out-of-continuity, it sold appallingly. So Marvel simply stopped making the distinction, particularly in relation to series that appear to continuity implants. Result: much higher sales on those types of miniseries, and really very few people actually care (because often it takes a fairly expansive knowledge of continuity to demonstrate quite WHY they're out of continuity).

There have been a handful of exceptions such as the ROGUE miniseres, which was so glaringly unrelated to any prior version of the character in comics that it was immediately obvious to anyone. But most people, quite understandably, don't care about continuity enough to worry about relatively minor timeline problems.

The point of the Marvel Universe, after all, was simply to let a bunch of concepts co-exist and interact. You can have an awful lot of latitude and still fulfil that basic aim. 

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Kurt Busiek, what happened?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 26, 2004 at 19:02:55:
In Reply to: Re: Thor: Godstorm 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 26, 2004 at 18:50:50:

Still, there are creators at Marvel who seem to revel in continuity consistencies, Kurt Busiek being one of them. Oh wait, Kurt wrote Godstorm! Hmm...it's hard for me to believe that the original Avengers/Gwen Stacy anachronism and the Ulik/Jane Foster anachronism got past him. And I'd expect minor details like the Wasp's headgear and Cap's presence on the team to be consistent, too, given that the Avengers has been Kurt's bailliwick.


--Paul

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Re: Kurt Busiek, what happened?
Posted by Administrator on January 26, 2004 at 19:12:17:
In Reply to: Kurt Busiek, what happened? 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 26, 2004 at 19:02:55:

> it's hard for me to believe that the original Avengers/Gwen Stacy anachronism and the Ulik/Jane Foster anachronism got past him.

I had problems accepting this, too, unless Kurt was winking at us, telling us this story wasn't canon.

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What now?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 26, 2004 at 21:51:45:
In Reply to: Re: Kurt Busiek, what happened? 
posted by Administrator on January 26, 2004 at 19:12:17:

Could be. So that raises the question: what's the final verdict on this story as far as the MCP is concerned?

--Paul

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Is Gun Theory Canon?
Posted by PopularLoser on January 24, 2004 at 16:03:57:

(As if the subject line didn't already cover what I'm about to ask :\ ) Is the Marvel Epic Series Gun Theory in continuity with everything else? 

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Re: Is Gun Theory Canon?
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 25, 2004 at 11:00:42:
In Reply to: Is Gun Theory Canon? 
posted by PopularLoser on January 24, 2004 at 16:03:57:

No, GUN THEORY is not canon. It wasn't originally intended for publication by Marvel (I'm not sure who the original publisher was), and despite what it says in the indicia, Marvel don't own it - Daniel Way says that the remaining issues are going to appear eventually, but not through Marvel.

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Does this article scare you chronologists?
Posted by Kevin on January 24, 2004 at 22:12:51:

Does this article scare any of my fellow chronologists on this board? I got to thinking about it after the posts concerning the Kingpin comic, where the editors basically were saying, "Yeah, it's canon, even though it contradicts everything that's come before now!"

You may have to cut and paste the link. 

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8052

Basically, it's saying that for some of the Marvel comics, they're not going to give a damn about continuity anymore. So what if one version of the Hulk appears in the Avengers "Search for She-Hulk" arc, and another version appears in the Hulk title? Thier answer is: "It's a big enough Marvel universe to accomodate both versions..."

I take their logic a step beyond the Marvel Knights titles, though...in their new mentality: Just because Thor's in a whole new costume and being "Lord Of Asgard" in his own title, he can appear in classic old garb in Amazing Spiderman, and we're not supposed to complain!

What I'm saying is: should we be striving so hard to make these titles work from a chronology point of view when it just seems Marvel doesn't give a damn?

Of course, I still enjoy working on chronology, WHATEVER Marvel believes, but I found the article to be...scary... 

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Re: Does this article scare you chronologists?
Posted by JEFF A. BAKER on January 24, 2004 at 22:19:25:
In Reply to: Does this article scare you chronologists? 
posted by Kevin on January 24, 2004 at 22:12:51:

YEE IT DOES I'M WORKING ON A SPIDERMAN CHRONOLOGY

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Re: Does this article scare you chronologists?
Posted by Jim! on January 25, 2004 at 10:44:41:
In Reply to: Re: Does this article scare you chronologists? 
posted by JEFF A. BAKER on January 24, 2004 at 22:19:25:

What I disagree with is the dichotomy the article creates between the "uber-fanboy" who is worried about continuity (or if Hulk could beat Thor) and the more "progressive" Marvel Knights reader.

Personally, I enjoy the Marvel Knights line immensely. Nearly everything that's come of it has met with my approval. The thing is, I also worry about things like continuity, (and sometimes I do think "who could beat who" - I say Thor over Hulk - because it's just plain fun). So which am I? A progressive MK reader, or an uber-fanboy? Why are they creating this divide?

As far as the life of the chronologist is concerned, DO NOT BE SCARED. This is a challenge if anything! Why does a chronologist do what he/she does? Anyone making money from this? Paul? Paul? or anyone else *snix*. I dare say it is because they find the whole damned thing FUN! So now there will be some glaring inconsistencies as a result of the new Marvel philosophy? Oh well. Therein lies the challenge! And everyone I've seen contribute to this site is darn well up to it too. Heck, even Peter David helps out every now and then (Absorbing Man inconsistency). We'll find those answers too!

And when the pendulum swings back - When the Powers that Be at Marvel Comics decide that continuity is cool again - The diligent chronologists who are the heart of this project will have kept things straight through that whole dark time! 

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Re: Does this article scare you chronologists?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 25, 2004 at 14:27:52:
In Reply to: Re: Does this article scare you chronologists? 
posted by Jim! on January 25, 2004 at 10:44:41:

Thanks for the vote of confidence in our group, Jim! I would be more concerned if the powers-that-be at Marvel were intentionally out to refute established continuity, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Folks at Marvel are free to express themselves with or without careful consideration of continuity (although continuity, IMHO, is one of the things that have made Marvel great). Heck, they've already been doing this; it's just that no one from Marvel has articulated it in this way. And, we are free to use our creative powers to make sense of it all, or to declare things non-canon.

Bring it on...

-- "uber-fanboy" Paul B.

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Thor/Fandral/Hogun at Great Cataclysm? Thor I#404-406 question for the experts
Posted by John McDonagh on January 25, 2004 at 11:49:43:

A nagging question just occured to me that might impact Thor's chronology. Someone pointed out recently that Thor I#404-406 has a storyline that
seems to imply that Odin, Thor, and the Warriors Three helped in the rejuvenation of the Earth after the Great Cataclysm. 
I dug out the issues. They did not seem to work well with other accounts of the world after the Great Cataclysm (such as the adaptation of the essay the Hyborian Age in Savage Sword of Conan#7 and Conan the Adventurer#5/2). Most notably, in the last panel of #406, as Thor and his men fly away from the planet they just rejuvenated.....and we see continents that resemble Earth's modern continents. 
Anyone see the mistake? Namely, Earth's continents did not take on their modern configuration until after the end of the Hyborian Age (circa 8,000 BCE), which would be thousands of years after the Great Cataclysm (at 18,000 BCE)!*

Anyway, can anyone shed further light on this baffling story? 


*(One of the implications of this story would be that Thor, Odin, etc. existed at least immediately after the Great Cataclysm. This might not be so bad, since Thor was invoked in the Conan graphic novel Conan of the Isles, "Wodun" was invoked in Conan the Savage#10, and Ymir was invoked in Savage I#1 and Savage Sword of Conan#141.) 

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Stryfe & Ch'vayre
Posted by David Hall on January 25, 2004 at 17:34:34:

Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix 2,3,4 were left out of Stryfe's chronology. He appears in these befroe Askani'son.

Oh, in Ch'vayre's chronology, Aksanison 1-4, is listed before C&P 1-4, this should be the other way around..... 

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That pesky 1901 Martian Invasion topic from a while back...
Posted by Jeph! on January 26, 2004 at 14:46:29:

Just ran across this quote from X-Force #102 last night, and I thought of the infamous "did the MU have a (probably unsuccessful) Martian Invasion in 1901, or not?" discussion from several months back.

Pete Wisdom is discussing British Intel with Alistaire Stuart -- two spooks who should know what they're talking about -- and he had this to say:

PW: "East of [Essex], on the coast, is British Intel's primary dissection lab. They dissected Martians there in 1899, kicking off a century of cutting up aliens for fun and profit."

So -- there *were* "Martians" on MU-earth in 1899!

Of course, this supports the notion that the 2001 invasion WAS the "second Martian invasion", as some later issues of GotG mention ... but it doesn't exactly jibe with the details of a *1901* invasion...

So: let the argument begin again. :-)

-Jeph! 

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Re: That pesky 1901 Martian Invasion topic from a while back...
Jeph, it you weren't a guy, I'd kiss you.

This bears further study. I know next to nothing about X-Force, so any context would be wonderful.

- SK 

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Re: That pesky 1901 Martian Invasion topic from a while back...
Posted by Jeph! on January 26, 2004 at 17:39:49:
In Reply to: Re: That pesky 1901 Martian Invasion topic from a while back... 
posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 26, 2004 at 16:36:13:

> Jeph, it you weren't a guy, I'd kiss you.

You charmer you. I'm just trying to help out. :-)

> This bears further study. I know next to nothing about X-Force, so any context would be wonderful.

That's pretty much all you get. Wisdom and Stuarte are discussing the dirty things that go on under London's nose, and Wisdom throws out this little tidbit about the dissection house before he blows it up. It's never mentioned again.

Take the ball and run! And watch out for the counter-argument -- that in the Killraven universe, there was a full-out 1901 invasion; but in the Marvel Universe, there was only an unsuccessful 1899 mission...

Good luck!

-Jeph! 

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Re: That pesky 1901 Martian Invasion topic from a while back...
Posted by Jeph! on January 26, 2004 at 17:42:52:
In Reply to: Re: That pesky 1901 Martian Invasion topic from a while back... 
posted by Jeph! on January 26, 2004 at 17:39:49:

> And watch out for the counter-argument...

Yeah ... the one that Don posted while I was writing the above. Sigh.

Sometimes I hate the inherent delay in Internet conversation...

-Jeph! 

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Re: That pesky 1901 Martian Invasion topic from a while back...
Posted by Don Campbell on January 26, 2004 at 17:29:10:
In Reply to: That pesky 1901 Martian Invasion topic from a while back... 
posted by Jeph! on January 26, 2004 at 14:46:29:

Okay, let's get started. First, it's not quite clear which "Martians" were dissected in 1899. As I see it, the term "Martians" could be used in reference to three different alien races. It could be A) the octopoid race who used Mars as a staging ground for the 2001 invasion of Earth-Killraven; or B) the native Martians first seen in 2099: WORLD OF TOMMOROW series; or C) a generic term for an alien race (like "little green men"). With this level of uncertainty, I don't believe that this single reference resolves anything, at least not definitively.

However, if we assume that the "Martians" dissected in 1899 WERE of the same species as the Martians who conquered Earth-Killraven in 2001, then this reference may actually pinpoint a divergence point at which Earth-Killraven split off from the mainstream Marvel Earth. Consider this scenario: in the pre-divergence timeline, an alien octopoid race had set up a staging base on Mars with the intent of eventually invading and conquering Earth. By 1899, the "Martians" were established enough to launch a reconnaissance mission to study Earth's defensive capabilities. It would be at this point that a divergence occurred, depending on what happened to that recon mission. In one timeline, the recon mission returned to Mars and reported that Earth was essentially defenseless against their technology. Based on this report, the "Martians" began preparing for a full-scale invasion of Earth. Two Earth years (or one Martian year) later, in 1901, the octopoid Martians invaded the United Kingdom but were killed by Earth's natural diseases before they could conquer more of the planet. This is the past of the timeline that I'm calling "Earth-Killraven."

As for the "other" timeline, the one which I believe to be the mainstream Earth, the recon mission was not as successful. Maybe some random event occured which caused their ship to crash in the United Kingdom. The crash breached the ship's hull, allowing Earth's atmosphere to enter and the crew to be infected, but they survived long enough to transmit a warning to their command base on Mars. Then, their bodies were found by British Intel and that primary dissection lab on the coast was set up to perform the autopsies. Back on Mars, the "Martians" were confronted with the unexpected deaths of their recon mission due to something which they had totally failed to consider and they decided to postpone any invasion plans until such time as they could develop an immunity to Earth diseases. Thus, in the mainstream timeline, there was NO INVASION in 1901...at least, no ACTUAL invasion. However, since the recon mission died while scouting for a planned invasion, some "Martians" could have considered the 1899 recon mission as "the first failed invasion" of Earth mentioned by Ripjak in GOTG 55 (i.e. "Panic gripped the populace. Some speculated it was Earth-borne bacteria as in THE FIRST FAILED INVASION, but my tests proved otherwise.").

All in all, I think this reference could possibly provide a compromise solution to the question of whether the 2001 invasion of Earth in the Guardians of the Galaxy's history was the first or second such invasion. From the human viewpoint, there was no invasion in 1901 and so the 2001 invasion was the first, but from the "Martian" viewpoint, the recon mission in 1899 was "the first failed invasion" and so the 2001 invasion was the second invasion.

By the way, you might want to check out my last posting in that old thread to read the opinion of someone well known in continuity circles. It's posting #5342.

Don Campbell 

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Frying calamari
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 26, 2004 at 21:21:26:
In Reply to: Re: That pesky 1901 Martian Invasion topic from a while back... 
posted by Don Campbell on January 26, 2004 at 17:29:10:

I didn't have time to do this topic justice in August and have even less time presently, but I am compelled to say a few words...

Previously, Jeph! spake:

> Just ran across this quote from X-Force #102:

> Pete Wisdom is discussing British Intel with Alistaire Stuart -- two spooks who should know what they're talking about -- and he had this to say:

> PW: "East of [Essex], on the coast, is British Intel's primary dissection lab. They dissected Martians there in 1899, kicking off a century of cutting up aliens for fun and profit."

To which Don Campbell replied:

> it's not quite clear which "Martians" were dissected in 1899.

> the term "Martians" could be used in reference to three different alien races.

> A) the octopoid race [...] of Earth-Killraven
> B) the native Martians first seen in 2099: WOT
> C) a generic term for an alien race (like "little green men").

> With this level of uncertainty, I don't believe that this single reference resolves anything, at least not definitively.

I agree with A & B, but am under the impression that the WOT have all been in stasis for thousands of years (haven't read WOT, so bear with me). That would all but rule out a "B" option.

> However, if we assume that the "Martians" dissected in 1899 WERE of the same species as the Martians who conquered Earth-Killraven in 2001, then this reference may actually pinpoint a divergence point at which Earth-Killraven split off from the mainstream Marvel Earth.

> Consider this scenario: in the pre-divergence timeline, an alien octopoid race had set up a staging base on Mars with the intent of eventually invading and conquering Earth.

Okay.

> By 1899, the "Martians" were established enough to launch a reconnaissance mission to study Earth's defensive capabilities.

Conjecture.

There are three separate accounts to consider:

A) Earth-KR's 1901 invasion
B) XFOR 100's 1899 capture of at least one Martian
C) The alledged 1898 writing of H.G. Wells' WOTW novel

KILLRAVEN #1 establishes that the novel was part of a disinformation campaign to cover a real failed invasion.

If I might invoke the principle of creator's intent once more, it seems apparent to me that the XFOR reference was the writer's tounge-in-cheek nod to the events depicted in Wells' novel.

> you might want to check out my last posting in that old thread to read the opinion of someone well known in continuity circles. It's posting #5342.

Thanks for the pointer; I do not recall seeing this posted, and could not find it upon scanning the board. A quick adjustment to the URL above...

> MTU #49 [...] the fourth [...] letter:

> Killraven's world of 2019 couldn't possibly be in Spider-Man's future, because Marvel-Earth is NOT in Killraven's past.

Pfeh.

> It also seems improbable that the inception of the mass super-hero population of the 70's wouldn't have found some way to stem a possible Martian invasion before it could occur. Although we do not know for certain that all Marvel's heroes will be dead or retired by the time of the Martian invasion of 2001, one imagines that some would still answer the clarion call to save Earth--if indeed the War of the Worlds were actually one of Earth's futures.

Hrm. AA2 38 established that Ant-Man, Black Bolt, Black Panther, Captain America, Daredevil, Dr Doom, Dr Strange, Hawkeye, Hulk, Human Torch, Iron Fist, Iron Man, Karnak, Loki, Man-Thing, Martinex(!), Medusa, Moondragon, Namor, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Silver Surfer, Spider-Man(!), Thing, Thor, Thunderbird, Vision, and Yellowjacket were part of Killraven's past.

> MG's fan letter was based on the assumption that Killraven's Earth was probably NOT Marvel-Earth and therefore never had Marvel's super-heroes to defend it.

Fan assumption is not the stuff canonicity is built on.

> the fact that it was printed without any (negative) editorial response (ie. no "Sorry, but you're mistaken") could be taken as agreement with MG's belief that Killraven's world was not Spider-Man's future even then (even if MG was wrong on a few of his details). As the saying goes, "Silence gives assent."

If there was no editorial comment either way, then the story content was left to stand on its own merit.

- SK, 'cause that's what Tiggers do best... 

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Point about alternate realities; strangely, many which diverge hundreds of years in the past still end up with a ver similar present 
Posted by John McDonagh on January 27, 2004 at 15:01:20:
In Reply to: Re: That pesky 1901 Martian Invasion topic from a while back... 
posted by Don Campbell on January 26, 2004 at 17:29:10:

This is all reminds of something strange I have noticed with some alternate realities that diverged from Earth-616 hundreds of years in the past....yet still have a shockingly similar present. 

Example; the alternate Earth from MTIO#50 and #100. This was an Earth where New Amsterdam was never renamed as New York. Yet up to the events of Fantastic Four I#2, this Earth still retained a similar history to Earth-616.
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/egdevour.htm
(You can even see that this Earth had a counterpart of the Vision...as I argue on the entry, the complications of having a Vision for this Earth are very deep.)

Also, does anyone remember the alternate Earth from Excalibur I#21-22 where the colonies lost the American War For Independance? Yet in the present of that Earth, there was still a Captain America (!), Spider-Man, Iron Man, and Avengers. 
Also, even though Germany was still ruled by a kaiser-and most of the other major countries of the world were still ruled by monarchies(strongly indicating that World War I never happened on this world), Prussia still had a secret agent called the Red Skull!

I guess my idea is that, as a sort of compromise, one could consider that Earth-Guardians of the Galaxy was not exactly the same as Earth-616 before that issue of Marvel Two-In One#69 where the two counterparts of Vance Astrovik meets. Perhaps Earth-Guardians of the Galaxy actually diverged with the 1901 invasion, which was, however, hushed up (per Killraven#1) and thus did not seriously impact the rest of history. 

Thus, there were no *major* divergences until 
that issue of Marvel Two-In-One#69.

I say this because Guardians of the Galaxy Annual#3 has the Vision/Mainframe of Earth-GOTG recount the 2001 Martian Invasion, and he refers to it as the *second* invasion. Is GOG@3 acceptable? 

Also, Mr. Campbell, a note on your posting #4759.
Here is see you wrote that after checking the handbook and going through various characters;

"These could be broken down into three types: characters from alternate futures (ie. Guardians of the Galaxy, Immortus, Kang, Thundra, Tomorrow Man), those from alternate Earths (ie. Squadron Supreme members, Crazy Gang, Saturnyne), and those from the future of an alternate Earth (ie. Nimrod, Phoenix II, Rama-Tut, Scarlet Centurion)."

Wait a minute; how come Kang and Immortus come from *alternate futures* but Rama-Tut and the Scarlet Centurion come from *futures of alternate Earths*? First of all, Other-Earth (the home of Kang) was established in Fantastic Four I#272-273 as definetly being an alternate Earth that diverged with the non-occurence of the Dark Ages (so it had to diverged around 600 CE). Second, Kang, Immortus, Rama-Tut, and the Scarlet Centurion are the *same* person.

Oh, and not a complaint but an observation; for the Merlyn post, you mentioned that storyline about the dinosaur Excalibur from Excalibur I#51. Anyway, you mentioned that that world must have diverged at least 65 million years ago. Actually, you can nail it down to Iron Man Annual#10, which explained that the battle between Atum and Set caused the extinction of the dinosaurs.

			*	*	*

Re: Point about alternate realities [snip]
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 27, 2004 at 16:06:21:
In Reply to: Point about alternate realities; strangely, many which diverge hundreds of years in the past still end up with a ver similar present 
posted by John McDonagh on January 27, 2004 at 15:01:20:

> This is all reminds of something strange I have noticed with some alternate realities that diverged from Earth-616 hundreds of years in the past....yet still have a shockingly similar present. 

John, don't get me wrong, the subjects you bring up are interesting. Nevertheless, the heart of our discussion in this thread (and the earlier ones in this series) is:

1) Is the Killraven depicted in AA2 the same as the one in the past of the GOTG?
2) Was there a War of the Worlds in 1901 of the 616 timeline?

Everything else, while entertaining, is a tangent.

To qualify the discussion, these issues matter because they show how these timelines are related and they have a major bearing on chronology (particularly the "Killraven Mythos" dept), particularly whether to chronologize the Guardians along with AA2's reality.

- SK 

			*	*	*

I wanted to suggest that E-GOTG might have had the 1901 Invasion, and E-616 not, but E-GOTG still have a similar history 
Posted by John McDonagh on January 27, 2004 at 16:44:42:
In Reply to: Re: Point about alternate realities [snip] 
posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 27, 2004 at 16:06:21:

> 1) Is the Killraven depicted in AA2 the same as the one in the past of the GOTG?
I would go for yes. 
> 2) Was there a War of the Worlds in 1901 of the 616 timeline?
I would go for no....but I meant to suggest with my earlier post that perhaps Earth-Guardians of the Galaxy actually diverged with the 1901 invasion but (due to its being hushed up) still had a very similar history to Earth-616 up to 2001's second invasion, and I mentioned those illustrative cases before to show how Earths that reach a minor point of divergence (in this case the hushed up first invasion) can still be imperceptibly different until something else comes up (e.g. second invasion). 

			*	*	*

Earth-GOTG did *diverge* before the Astroviks met
Posted by John McDonagh on January 28, 2004 at 14:25:17:
In Reply to: That pesky 1901 Martian Invasion topic from a while back... 
posted by Jeph! on January 26, 2004 at 14:46:29:

I though about how it was possible that Earth-616 never had a Martian invasion in 1901, while Earth-Guardians of the Galaxy did. I postulated, however, that this 1901 invasion was covered up, so Earth-GOTG remained imperceptibly different from Earth-616 till the 2001 invasion.

Many people will say "Oh no, Earth-Guardians of the Galaxy and Earth-616 were exactly the same up to Marvel Two-In-One#69, when the Astroviks met". Well, something that would indicate that the Earths had diverged before that point: 

verbatim from The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Update '89#1 entry for Vance Astro:

"Astro volunteered for the first manned interstellar mission ever conducted by the United States government. In this alternate future *Reed Richards never released his own experimental starship to the government*." (asterix mine)

So this would indicate that Earth-GOTG diverged from Earth-616 at least as early as Fantastic Four I#1 (fb). 

			*	*	*

Paging Sean Kleefeld
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 29, 2004 at 20:01:59:
In Reply to: Earth-GOTG did *diverge* before the Astroviks met 
posted by John McDonagh on January 28, 2004 at 14:25:17:

What exactly was Reed's "experimental starship?" The experimental flight in FF 1 was an attempt to beat the Russians to Luna, as I understand it.

I also seem to recall a retcon (because of Marveltime's moving the flight back to, well, 1994 or so) saying that it was an experimental faster-than-light ship. Don't remember it ever being called a starship (although if it were FTL it would qualify), or even looking like one.

When did Reed turn over a ship to the Feds? Didn't the experimental craft crash and burn?

A quick nit on the side, "Earth-GOTG" was the original timeline, at least if the traditional M/TIO 69 is indeed the divergence point. "Earth-616" was the one that branched off.

- SK 

			*	*	*

Re: Paging Sean Kleefeld
Posted by Administrator on January 29, 2004 at 20:07:26:
In Reply to: Paging Sean Kleefeld 
posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 29, 2004 at 20:01:59:

> What exactly was Reed's "experimental starship?" The experimental flight in FF 1 was an attempt to beat the Russians to Luna, as I understand it.

> I also seem to recall a retcon (because of Marveltime's moving the flight back to, well, 1994 or so) saying that it was an experimental faster-than-light ship. Don't remember it ever being called a starship (although if it were FTL it would qualify), or even looking like one.

> When did Reed turn over a ship to the Feds? Didn't the experimental craft crash and burn?

Sean Kleefeld is neck-deep in academia for the first half of this year. I don't know how much time he has to devote to the Posting Board. Be prepared to wait a while before he sees your hail.

			*	*	*

The government was guarding Richard's ship, so.......
Posted by John McDonagh on January 29, 2004 at 23:29:11:
In Reply to: Paging Sean Kleefeld 
posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 29, 2004 at 20:01:59:

> I also seem to recall a retcon (because of Marveltime's moving the flight back to, well, 1994 or so) saying that it was an experimental faster-than-light ship. Don't remember it ever being called a starship (although if it were FTL it would qualify), or even looking like one.
The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe entry for Reed Richards confirms this retcon, first introduced in a flashback in Fantastic Four I#236.

> When did Reed turn over a ship to the Feds? Didn't the experimental craft crash and burn?
Richards pursued his project with the government's help and using government backing. The government (if you recall the Fantastic Four's origin) had the ship under guard (they did not do a good job, since four people managed to steal it and launch it, but inebriated guards are another story). So, since the government worked with Reed Richards to build his ship, then in that sense he "released" it to them.....since he would have had to have shared his plans for the ship with them and they had it under guard. 
I'll have to thank Peter Sanderson for throwing this line i. This makes sense of a lot of things. Namely, I am pretty sure Vance Astro would not have subjected himself to 1,000 years of suspended animation if the government could have simply asked Reed Richards to lend them one of his ships! 

			*	*	*

Zoe Culloden
Posted by David Hall on January 26, 2004 at 20:58:38:

Zoe Culloden (Expiditer II) makes an appearance in Wolverine 111, as a hologram recording. This recording was made right before Deadpool3 #1, thus she should have a Flashback listing for W2 111.

W2 100
UX 332
V:TC 1-BTS
**W2 111 - FB
DPOOL3 1 

			*	*	*

Ogun
Posted by David Hall on January 26, 2004 at 21:02:53:

Ogun appears in W2 111-114. His listing currently reflects his app. in 111. 113 and 114 aren't in the MCP yet, since they are in the second gap. So we need to add 112, where he appears, possessing a knife weilding mime. (How the mighty have fallen....)

OGUN

KP&W 6
W2 89
W2 111
**W2 112
XCAL 111 

			*	*	*

Help with W2 113 Flashback
Posted by David Hall on January 26, 2004 at 21:39:22:

I have been submitting a lot of issues recently to Russ, to help close Gap#2. I would like to get W2 113 in, as it is the last regular issue of Wolverine still in the gap, that I have not submitted a chronology for. Specifically what I need help with is the flashback in this issue.

Flashback: Wolverine meets Ogun for thie first time.

in Shanghai, Wolverine is drinking and signing a pirate song. There is a guy in red with a funny hat, who is some type of zen/martial arts master. Who is he?

There is also a young boy, weilding a stick. Who is he?

a Japanese sergeant attacks the man in red, who has dropped his box, the same relic that we seen in Wolverine 111-114 (which used to belong to Deathstike's dad, Lord Dark Wind.)

a private tries to stop him, but to no avail.

The boy with the Stick attacks the sergeant, then Logan steps in and takes the gun from the sergeant, and hits him with it. Then Ogun, in military uniform steps out of the shadows, and slices the sergeant with his sword, killing him, for defiling the honor of the Japanese military. He moves to attack the private, bbut Logan intercedes. Ogun stares at Logan, commends him for showing no fear, only defiance, and offers to train him at hi dojo. 

The man in red says to Logan "you would be better served becoming an acolyte of this undeserving dodderer and plumbing th depth sof the universe, you possess powers you are not even aware of."

Logan walks off, singing his song.

The man in red says to the boy with stick "The Wild side of you wants to follow him my son, but there is still much you must learn from me. In time your feet will stray fromt he path,a nd you will find your way back. But for now your place is at my side. Do you hear me child?"

The child stares at Logan as he walks off.


Given the stuff going on in the issues of wolverine prior to this, I suspect that the boy is supposed to be Stick... Am I correct about this? I know nothing about the character, but her talks alot about setting Logan back on the path.

Who is the boy's mentor, the man in red?

Also if anyonw wants to suggest a placment in Logan's chronology for this fb, go ahead. The main thing I need is an indentity check on the man in red, and on the boy with stick.


Thanks!

Dave 

			*	*	*

Askani'son 4
Posted by Sean on January 27, 2004 at 01:47:57:

Hello. This is Sean and this is my first contribution to the MCP. I hope its helpful.
Askanison #4 (last part in a four part mini-series)
Askanison isnt listed in the key, but according to Stryfes chronology, its just ASKANISON4.
Published May, 1996
Story: Scott Lobdell, Dialogue: Jeph Loeb, Pencils: Gene Ha
Appearances: Cable, Aliya (whom you dont have listed, probably because most of her appearances happened during the gap), Stryfe, Zero, Madame Sanctity, Tetherblood, Blaquesmith, Tribune Haight (leader of the Canaanites), Umbrige (Haights officer), Chvayre (Stryfes mentor), and Columbus (a ships captain)
Brief Synopsis: The Canaanites attack Ebonshire. Stryfe joins in the attack. Stryfe kidnaps Madame Sanctity, and Cable, Aliya, and Tetherblood escape and found the Clan Chosen.
References: This story takes place a few days after AskaniSon 3 (no time is mentioned, but its obvious Cable has been in Ebonshire for a short while. He arrived there at the end of issue 3). The entire Askanison story takes place after Adventures Of Cyclops and Pheonix some 2000 years in the future. Its before. Well, anything that happens after Askanison 3, including many flashbacks, Cable: Blood and Metal, etc.
No flashbacks or backstories.
Okay, thats all. I hope this is what you want. If you need more, or else, or whatever feel free to e-mail me. Thanks. 

			*	*	*

Re: Askani'son 4
Posted by Jeph! on January 27, 2004 at 02:55:42:
In Reply to: Askani'son 4 
posted by Sean on January 27, 2004 at 01:47:57:

> Appearances: Aliya (whom you dont have listed...)

Actually, Aliya IS on the MCP, under her "codename" of Jenskot. And Askani'Son #1-4 are already in her chronology ... however, her death scene, which I think occured in Cable v2 #1, isn't.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: Askani'son 4
Posted by Sean on January 27, 2004 at 03:14:01:
In Reply to: Re: Askani'son 4 
posted by Jeph! on January 27, 2004 at 02:55:42:

Yeah, I noticed a lot of people who appeared in Askani'son 4 were already listed, but under the "GAP" section it said nobody had offered an analysis, so I figured I'd throw it in there. Thanks for letting me know about Jenskot. 

			*	*	*

Spider-women
Posted by Mickey on January 27, 2004 at 03:09:25:

Hi... first of all, I want to tell you how I admire your work, I hope one day I'll be able to contribute.
I was browsing the "Spiders"... I've seen that the apparitions in Alias by Spider-woman I e III are not listed, but I imagine someone is analyzing the books!
And, by the way, Spider-woman IV is Charlotte WITTER, not Winter.

			*	*	*

C2 -1 Analysis
Posted by Sean on January 27, 2004 at 03:11:34:

Alright, entry number 2 for me. Here goes Cable # -1
C2 -1
Published: July, 1997
Writer: James Robinson, Penciler: Ladronn
Appearances: Reverend Craig, Rahne Sinclair, Moira MacTaggert, Cable, and Apocalypse
Brief Synopsis: Cable comes back in time to our time period for the first time. He arrives in Scotland and causes quite a roar among the people, especially Reverend Craig. Moira comes to see whats going on and brings Rahne with her. She takes Cable back with her to Muir Island where he tells her that he needs to see Xavier, and Moira aggress to introduce them. In the epilogue we see that Cables time travel has awakened Apocalypse from his slumber.
References: Alright, because this involves time travel, its a little tricky. Also, I dont have access to as many issues as I would like so I cant be certain on some things. To make it easier, Ill break it up by character.
Apocalypse: This definitely takes place AFTER the FB in C2 99. It is Apocalypses first appearance in the modern time. It takes place simultaneously with the FB in C2 75 (which you dont have listed). Its definitely BEFORE CX 25 FB, but I dont have UX 119, so I dont know about its FB-BTS. If thats a modern appearance (as I assume it is since his origins had not been revealed by the time it was published) then C2 1 happens before it.
Cable: Okay, this is tricky. Am I supposed to do this based upon TIME or based upon Cables experiences? Im going to do the latter. This is Cables first modern appearance as it is when he arrives in our time period. It definitely happens AFTER Askanison 4. It also must happen before W/C (the first issue you have for him.) I noticed you guys havent done C2 1. Good luck with that. Its tricky because of time travel. But from what I can tell, and based upon the policy of the -1 issues, I have to assume that C2 -1 happens BEFORE C2 1. (This would mean that Cable goes back to the future after coming to our time but more on that when you look at C2 1.) Anyway, the basic concept to go by is that this is his first appearance in our time period.
Moira MacTaggert: Again, difficult because I dont have some key issues. She says (referring to Xavier) Ive nae spoken thim fseveral years. Thus I have to assume that it happens AFTER the flashback in UX300 because it seems like she and Xavier are close at that time. Im pretty sure it happens before X 2 FB, but I really dont have anything to support that. In CX 2, Moira once again mentions not having talked to Xavier for all these years. I can imagine there being another multi-year gap between C2 -1 and CX 2, but not shoved between CX 2 and the rest of Moiras appearances.
Reverend Craig: He refers to Wolfsbane as wee Rahne and makes no other mention of being her foster father. Because of this and what I mentioned above, Im pretty sure this happens BEFORE CX2.
Rahne Sinclair: Again, Im pretty sure this happens AFTER CX2, but since I dont have UX94 I dont know if it is before or after that.

Alright, now if you didnt think all of that was enough, theres a FLASHBACK. Cable is remembering fighting in his time, 2000 years in the future. Appearances are Cable, Tetherblood (by looks only, in the middle of a fight, his name is never mentioned) and Tribune Haight in backstory. Basically, it is mentioned that theres a bounty on Cables head, then he and his friends (it is not said if they are of the Clan Chosen) proceed to beat up a bunch of Canaanites. The flashback definitely takes place AFTER Askanison 4 as Cable is a man, but I dont have anything else to reference it with. Perhaps the fact that Tribune Haight has put a bounty on his head will help you place it somewhere. Other than that, its just some fighting.

Okay, thats all. Sorry this is so long and confusing. Again, e-mail me if you have questions, comments, or suggestions on how I can do better analysis of an issue.

			*	*	*

Re: C2 -1 Analysis
Posted by David Hall on January 27, 2004 at 11:03:01:
In Reply to: C2 -1 Analysis 
posted by Sean on January 27, 2004 at 03:11:34:

Sean,
Excellent job! Im glad to see different people taking an interest in the X-Titles gap issues. While I dont have my comics in front of me (so I cant check Moiras flashbacks) I can confirm that C2 -1 does occur before W/C, and is Cables first trip to modern Marvel time. Since W/C occurs sometime before Wolverine joins the X-Men (indeed it predates his first actual app. In Hulk #180) this issue, does occur BEFORE Giant-Size X-Men, and (more importantly) before Uncanny X-Men 94/Classic X-Men 2.

Since this happens before UX 94, it obviously happens before UX 119/Classic X-men 25, just as you said.

Jeff will eventually get the 1993 Cable issues into the MCP. I am kind of curious as to how many different trips Cable made back and forth between the future and the mainstream marvel universe myself. He had a time machine, in orbit, no less, so he could have made multiple trips.

Off the top of my head, I cannot remember what Rahne is doing in this issue. As I recall she did not become Moiras ward until M/GN 4. Now we know from the CX2 flashback, that Moira was well aware of Rahnes situation, living with Rev. Craig, and that, but what is Rahne doing on Muir Island at this time? Ill have to reread Rahnes past apps., but I wonder if this is a case of the writer not doing his homework?

Dave Hall

			*	*	*

Invaders
Posted by Mickey on January 27, 2004 at 03:16:01:

Sorry, it's always me.
Is there a reason that the villains of "Invaders" (vol. 2) are not listed, while the apparition of the heroes in that story are listed? Thanx 

			*	*	*

Re: Invaders
Posted by Administrator on January 27, 2004 at 14:32:45:
In Reply to: Invaders 
posted by Mickey on January 27, 2004 at 03:16:01:

> Is there a reason that the villains of "Invaders" (vol. 2) are not listed, while the apparition of the heroes in that story are listed? Thanx

I...don't know. Frankly, it surprises me that the heroes are listed. I have it scheduled to be part of the First Gap that we're trying to close.

			*	*	*

Re: Invaders
Posted by Mickey on January 27, 2004 at 16:47:22:
In Reply to: Re: Invaders 
posted by Administrator on January 27, 2004 at 14:32:45:

Yes, maybe the heroes are from other appearances. I'd like to help to close the gap, but I couldn't fit the chronology of those characters... 

			*	*	*

Harper
Posted by David Hall on January 27, 2004 at 20:19:52:

I am rereading UX 343, when I happened to notice that Bastion's main servant Harper does not have an MCP listing. (I notice that Daria has one!)I don't have a list of all his appearances, but for a start:

Harper
X-Factor #128
Cable #40
UX #343

(I'm sure that as I read on, there will be more. (And yes I know some of the issues that he is in are in Gap #2, but not all.)

I'll just post them on the board as replies to this message as I see them.

David Hall 

			*	*	*

Magneto FB UX 344
Posted by David Hall on January 27, 2004 at 20:48:19:

UX 344 - Fb is missing from Magneto's listing, yes it is Joseph having the fb, but it is from Magneto's memories:

A truck, with the boy Magneto, and many other prisoners arrives at Auschwitz. The boy sees barbed wire, guards, and a dead body.

Off the top of my head, I believe this would go after NM 49 - Fb, where Magneto's family is murdered by the SS, and before XU 2 -Fb (where I think he is already in the camp.) Please correct me if I'm wrong.

MAGNETO/MAGNUS/"ERIC LENSHERR"
NM 49-FB
** UX 344 - FB
XU 2-FB
CX 12/2-FB
UX 304-FB
XU 2-FB
UX 161-FB
UX 309-FB
UX 161-FB
CX 19/2

			*	*	*

Punisher - UX 341
Posted by David Hall on January 27, 2004 at 20:55:42:

The Punisher is in UX 341, sure he's only in 1 panel on page 4, but it counts for the MCP. 

			*	*	*

Sister Maria de la Joya
Posted by David Hall on January 27, 2004 at 21:19:40:

Sister Maria de la Joya is missing her first two apps.

**X 46
**UX 327
UX 345

			*	*	*

Tores Gen X 21, gen X 0.5
Posted by David Hall on January 27, 2004 at 21:58:56:

Some apps that needed to be added:

Tores
** Gen X 0.5 -FB
**GenX 21
Genx 25
** Gen X 29
** Gen X 30 (in Gap#2)
GenX 31
** Gen X 0.5

There may be more.....

			*	*	*

David...
Posted by Jeph! on January 27, 2004 at 22:39:34:
In Reply to: Tores Gen X 21, gen X 0.5 
posted by David Hall on January 27, 2004 at 21:58:56:

Okay, while I'm nitpicking:

David, you do good work here, but is there any way you could save up a few of these mini-corrections of yours, and post them four or five at a time?

Arthur Stein just posted a complete alpha listing of corrections he'd noted, and each post contained three corrections. I really enjoyed this format, and found that it saved a lot of click-around hassle.

You seem to have a lot to offer, and it looks like there's no end in sight -- and since it's all X-related stuff, posting one-fifth as many posts that are five times as big would be, in my mind at least, a much better way of presenting your information.

No insult intended, David -- keep up the good work.

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Re: David...
Posted by david Hall on January 27, 2004 at 23:08:12:
In Reply to: David... 
posted by Jeph! on January 27, 2004 at 22:39:34:

Hmmn, While I do like Arthur's format, I've just been putting things out there as I see them. Let me think about it for a while though. It probably would save me some posting time....
No insult taken, by the way.

Dave

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Re: David...
Posted by Jeph! on January 27, 2004 at 23:28:39:
In Reply to: Re: David... 
posted by david Hall on January 27, 2004 at 23:08:12:

> Hmmn, While I do like Arthur's format, I've just been putting things out there as I see them. Let me think about it for a while though. It probably would save me some posting time....

I've found that saving stuff up allows me to read through it a few times before I post, correcting my grammar, spelling, and presentation. Not that I'm knocking your grammar or anything -- I just enjoy being able to streamline my posts before they go up, since this forum doesn't have an edit feature.

> No insult taken, by the way.

Cool. Keep on keeping on, Dave... :)

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Angel - X'97
Posted by David Hall on January 27, 2004 at 22:45:51:

Angel has X'97 listed after Crimson Dawn, BUT in CD1 (which is in Gap#2) Wolverine visits, and mentions that he is living in the area, placing Crimson Dawn after W2 111-114 (or during these if necessary)
Since W2 111 occurs afther X'97 (See Wolverine, and several other characters listings, we must move X'97 to before CD in Angel's listing.

Angel
UX 338
X 61
** X'97
**CD 1 (in Gap #2)
CD 2
CD 3
CD 4
(X '97) Delete this one!
UX 348
UX 349
UX 350
UX 352
XU 17

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Excalibur one-shots question
Posted by Kman00001 on January 28, 2004 at 06:54:45:

Does anyone know where Excalibur: The Sword is drawn and Excalibur: Mojo Mayhem fit? 

			*	*	*

Re: Excalibur one-shots question
Posted by Cook on January 28, 2004 at 07:32:28:
In Reply to: Excalibur one-shots question 
posted by Kman00001 on January 28, 2004 at 06:54:45:

> Does anyone know where Excalibur: The Sword is drawn and Excalibur: Mojo Mayhem fit?

"Excalibur: The Sword is Drawn" was a reprint of the Excalibur Special Edition (1988). That issue is already listed in the MCP as XCALSE.

Actually, if I recall correctly, Marvel just added "The Sword is Drawn" to the cover of latter printings of the Special Edition...

Mojo Mayhem is listed in the MCP as XCAL:MM... 

			*	*	*

Re: Excalibur one-shots question
Posted by Kman00001 on January 28, 2004 at 09:06:19:
In Reply to: Re: Excalibur one-shots question 
posted by Cook on January 28, 2004 at 07:32:28:

Ahh...I didn't know that book was a reprint. Thanks, man. :) 

			*	*	*

Yeti note; he is Kaliban, per Olshevsky
Posted by John McDonagh on January 28, 2004 at 15:18:19:

George Olshevksy declared in the Fantastic Four Index
that the "abominable snowman" Inhuman from Fantastic Four#99 (who of course gained the name Yeti in Lost Generation) is the same Inhuman as Kaliban, seen in Fantastic Four#117. Check the #99 and #117 index entries. 

Kaliban also showed up in Fantastic Four Unlimited#2. 

			*	*	*

BLACK LAMA...BLISS...
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 28, 2004 at 16:37:15:

new entries marked **


BLACK LAMA

IM 80-FB
IM 53
**IM 70-FB (11p) Black Lama approaches Yellow Claw to compete for Worlds Mightiest Villain.
IM 71


BLISS

**UX 261
**UX 262
UX 263


BOSHLOVOR

FW 5
**FW 11


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#152 

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Black Panther in Jungle Action
Posted by godcipherdivine on January 28, 2004 at 18:40:15:

there is no listing for Jungle Action #5 in the Black Panther chronological listing if I am correct. That needs to be added. PEACE 

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Re: Black Panther in Jungle Action
Posted by Arthur Stein on January 28, 2004 at 19:44:23:
In Reply to: Black Panther in Jungle Action 
posted by godcipherdivine on January 28, 2004 at 18:40:15:

Jungle Action #5 is a reprint of Avengers #62 and thus has no chronology of its own.

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MCP: Announce
Posted by Administrator on January 28, 2004 at 18:45:15:

It's with pleasure and pride that I can announce two new members to your Board of Directors.

KEVIN WASSER has provided us extensive...EXTENSIVE... issue summaries, most notably for Hulk, Daredevil and Punisher. He's one of Paul Bourcier's main partners in developing an overarching calendar of the Marvel Universe. Modesty becomes him, but he's been deserving of Director status for several months now.

Everyone has seen ARTHUR STEIN's notations and annotations that have been drumming existing chronologies into shape over the past year. The influence that Arthur has exerted can be seen in the posts of others, who have adopted his style. Every four days, we can depend on his updates for three characters.

Both of these gentlemen have shown through their posts not only their knowledge of the Marvel Universe and its history, but more importantly, their love and respect for the tapestry that Marvel has woven over the past forty years, and I reward them in the only way available to me.

Welcome aboard, guys.

Your Board:
Paul Bourcier
Sean Kleefeld
Paul O'Brien
Arthur Stein
Kevin Wasser
Jeph York!
Russ Chappell

We should get together in San Diego one year...

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Re: MCP: Announce
Posted by Jeph! on January 28, 2004 at 21:41:49:
In Reply to: MCP: Announce 
posted by Administrator on January 28, 2004 at 18:45:15:

> It's with pleasure and pride that I can announce two new members to your Board of Directors.

> KEVIN WASSER and ARTHUR STEIN

Congratulations, both of you! And welcome ... new guys buy the beer.

> We should get together in San Diego one year...

That would be ... interesting. Probably frightening, too, but I imagine we'd manage to have some laughs in-between the arm-wrestling matches to determine the canonicity of various books...

> Jeph York!

Oh, you flatter me, Russ, but the exclamation mark at the end of the last name just doesn't look right. I'm fine with other folks calling me "Jeph" -- I just like to sign off with "Jeph!" to add a punch.

Like so...

-Jeph!
glad to finally be off beer duty ... that O'Brien drinks like a fish. 

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Re: MCP: Announce
Posted by Kevin on January 29, 2004 at 00:15:04:
In Reply to: Re: MCP: Announce 
posted by Jeph! on January 28, 2004 at 21:41:49:

> Congratulations, both of you! And welcome ... new guys buy the beer.

I thought the seniors but us a round first? As a toast? ;-)

> > We should get together in San Diego one year...

> That would be ... interesting. Probably frightening, too, but I imagine we'd manage to have some laughs in-between the arm-wrestling matches to determine the canonicity of various books...


How about we settle for "Rock/paper/scissors?" 

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Re: MCP: Announce
Posted by Jeph! on January 29, 2004 at 03:47:50:
In Reply to: Re: MCP: Announce 
posted by Kevin on January 29, 2004 at 00:15:04:

> > Congratulations, both of you! And welcome ... new guys buy the beer.

> I thought the seniors buy us a round first? As a toast? ;-)

Uhhh ... ehhhhh ... No.

:-)

> > I imagine we'd manage to have some laughs in-between the arm-wrestling matches to determine the canonicity of various books...
>
> How about we settle for "Rock/paper/scissors?"

I'm thinking some sort of darts contest, now ... or pin-the-tail-on-the-canon, that sort of thing.

-Jeph! 

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Re: MCP: Announce
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 29, 2004 at 05:08:29:
In Reply to: Re: MCP: Announce 
posted by Jeph! on January 28, 2004 at 21:41:49:

> -Jeph!
> glad to finally be off beer duty ... that O'Brien drinks like a fish.

I'm Scottish! It's in the constitution! 

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Re: MCP: Announce
Posted by Kevin on January 29, 2004 at 00:10:08:
In Reply to: MCP: Announce 
posted by Administrator on January 28, 2004 at 18:45:15:

> KEVIN WASSER has provided us extensive...EXTENSIVE... issue summaries, most notably for Hulk, Daredevil and Punisher. He's one of Paul Bourcier's main partners in developing an overarching calendar of the Marvel Universe. Modesty becomes him, but he's been deserving of Director status for several months now.

Ah, c'mon...admit it, you're just putting me on the Board to act as a counter balance to all those Paul's...they're trying to take over, I tell you! ;-)

> Everyone has seen ARTHUR STEIN's notations and annotations that have been drumming existing chronologies into shape over the past year. The influence that Arthur has exerted can be seen in the posts of others, who have adopted his style. Every four days, we can depend on his updates for three characters.

Now there's a guy that deserves recognition. I'm amazed constantly at all the extra tidbits Arthur's able to find on even the smallest of Marvel characters...

So what's our first task? Ending World Hunger? Finding a cure for the common cold? Did we ever resolve that 'Kang War' thing? 

> We should get together in San Diego one year...

Sounds like it'd have the makings of a good time...heh, you know, as I recall, Olshelvsky lives in San Diego somewhere...maybe we should all get together and form a pilgrimage to go praise the master? ;-) 

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Re: MCP: Announce
Posted by Jeph! on January 29, 2004 at 03:45:20:
In Reply to: Re: MCP: Announce 
posted by Kevin on January 29, 2004 at 00:10:08:

> admit it, you're just putting me on the Board to act as a counter balance to all those Paul's...

That's pretty much what he told me, yeah.

-Jeph! 

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Does anyone know Wolverine's 'gap' appearances?
Posted by Scott on January 28, 2004 at 23:14:41:

Hi...I was wondering if anyone had or knew of a resource to trace all of a character's appearances regardless of whether or not they are currently on the MCP. I'm trying to track down all of Wolverine's appearances through Legion Quest and I'm sure I must be missing some that fall into the first gap. 

In a related question, how would I know from the update page which characters might have appeared in the newly-added issues? Is a close viewing of a character's list of appearances the only sure-fire way?

Thanks for any help you can give. 

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Re: Does anyone know Wolverine's 'gap' appearances?
Posted by Administrator on January 28, 2004 at 23:44:37:
In Reply to: Does anyone know Wolverine's 'gap' appearances? 
posted by Scott on January 28, 2004 at 23:14:41:

> In a related question, how would I know from the update page which characters might have appeared in the newly-added issues? Is a close viewing of a character's list of appearances the only sure-fire way?

There's a link to a search engine on the home page, where you can ask for all the characters in a particular comic. I'm not sure how frequently the search engine reindexes the site, though, so I can't guarantee that those books that were just added would be included.

You should be aware that, for those books in the first gap (1993-94), a character who appears in a book might not be in the Project yet, even though we say the book has been added. Why? Well, even though we know that a character (say, Wolverine) guest stars in a book (say, Darkhawk 30), we haven't yet analyzed Wolverine's own books from 93-94, so we don't know where that appearance occurs in his chronology.

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What's next for 1993?
Posted by David Hall on January 29, 2004 at 12:45:54:
In Reply to: Re: Does anyone know Wolverine's 'gap' appearances? 
posted by Administrator on January 28, 2004 at 23:44:37:

Russ,
Now that you've got Darkhawk, Dr. Strange, Namor, and Silver Surfer indexed, which books are you going to tackle next?

Dave

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Re: What's next for 1993?
Posted by Administrator on January 29, 2004 at 13:26:11:
In Reply to: What's next for 1993? 
posted by David Hall on January 29, 2004 at 12:45:54:

My priority as we speak is archiving the August messages from the Posting Board. I've got my fingers crossed that we'll be finished by this weekend, but August was a *big* month. As an aside, a substantial number of issue analyses were posted to the board that month (including at least one from you), so we'll have *something* of an issue nature in the update this weekend. I've also received a patch on the posting board software from Ross Snyder that will allow us to use some html again, and plan to get that up and running.

If you're asking specifically about the Gap, next to fall under the microscope will be Thunderstrike, She-Hulk, and maybe Sleepwalker, but not this week.

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Re: Does anyone know Wolverine's 'gap' appearances?
Posted by Jeph! on January 29, 2004 at 03:42:39:
In Reply to: Does anyone know Wolverine's 'gap' appearances? 
posted by Scott on January 28, 2004 at 23:14:41:

> Hi...I was wondering if anyone had or knew of a resource to trace all of a character's appearances regardless of whether or not they are currently on the MCP.

ComiX-Fan has a section where they have threads for every X-character ... it's hard as hell to navigate that site, but they're there. They sometimes don't make the continuity distinctions we do, however, and I've seen dream-sequence or non-canon appearances show up in their listings -- but it's an alternate source, at least for X-Men characters.

I'm sure similar fansites for other types of characters -- Spider-Man, FF, Avengers, etc. -- will maintain similar listings, but I don't know of any off the top of my head.

-Jeph! 

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Had a question concerning some old X-men stuff
Posted by Rob on January 29, 2004 at 01:19:50:

I stumbled upon you guys and thought maybe you could help me with some timeline information. I have been trying to find out what series took part in the Age of Apocalypse setting. So far I have found the following:
(Note the titles all go from 1-4, or at least I think)
Amazing X-men, Astonishing X-men, Weapon X, X-Man(was Cable, not sure if it has anything to do with the X-man series)Gambit and the X-ternals, Factor X, X-Calibre, Generation Next, X-men Chronicles, Rise of Apocalypse, and Blink. I have also found Tales of the AoA: By the Light and Sinister Bloodlines, and some I believe single issues titled: Ashcan, Book of Askani, Alpha, The Chosen, and Omega. Finally, I also found out about a title called X-universe, though I am not sure how many there would be of that. My question is, do these titles take place during the Age of Apocalypse, and am I missing any that you could think of? I was hoping to get a chronological ordering of the events that transpired in them all, but I really have no idea what belongs where. If anyone would be able to help I would appreciate it greatly. 

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Re: Had a question concerning some old X-men stuff
Posted by rhod on January 29, 2004 at 03:07:58:
In Reply to: Had a question concerning some old X-men stuff 
posted by Rob on January 29, 2004 at 01:19:50:

AOA 'began' when Legion assassinated Xavier, thus allowing Apocalypse to take over the world. The first comic proper is Xmen Alpha(1 issue), followed by Amazing X-men, Astonishing X-men, Gambit & X-ternals, X-man, Weapon X(volume 1), Factor X, X-Calibre, Generation next (4 issues each) which all run pretty much concurrently and tie up in X-men Omega, before the regular Marvel Universe resumes in X-men Prime.(As seen in Prime, Nate Grey lands in this world and the X-man series continues from this point with issue 5).
X-Universe is a 2-part series which also runs between Alpha & Omega and features the AOA universes non-mutants. X-men Chronicles(2 1ssues) is set before Alpha, as are the 2 'Tales of the age of Apocalypse' one-shots.
'The Chosen' was a one-off guide to some of the characters in the AOA with some nice pin-ups. 
'Rise of Apocalypse' is set approx. 4,000 years ago and is part of AOA and 616 continuity.
'Books of Askani' I've not read but believe to be part of 616 continuity (set in the future?).

I'm not aware of any ashcan, or a Blink solo comic, hope the rest is of some use tho'. 

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AoA reading order
Posted by Jeph! on January 29, 2004 at 03:37:04:
In Reply to: Re: Had a question concerning some old X-men stuff 
posted by rhod on January 29, 2004 at 03:07:58:

There was a Blink solo series, 4 issues, set before X-Men Alpha. As far as I know there was no ashcan.

And "Books of Askani" was set in Cable's future timeline -- a timeline which has now been erased.

"Rise of Apocalypse" was Apocalypse's origin, 5000 years ago -- technically it's part of "AoA continuity", since the AoA universe didn't split off of ours until 20 years before the present day. Apoc's origins are the same in both universes.

The two "Tales of the AoA" one-shots don't say "By the Light" and "Sinister Bloodlines" on the covers, if that's how you're trying to find them. They say "Starring the X-Men" and "starring Factor X", in that order.

And, finally, you missed two issues:

X-Man #-1 takes place in the AoA, and X-Man Annual '96 features Nate travelling back in time to the early days of the AoA.

Here's a rough guide on the chronological order to read the issues:

X-Men Chronicles #1
X-Man '96
X-Men Chronicles #2
Tales From the AoA: Factor X (Sinister Bloodlines)
X-Man #-1
Tales From the AoA: X-Men (By the Light)
Blink #1-4

X-Men Alpha

(the following eight series should basically be read concurrently; issue #1 of each, then issue #2 of each, etc etc. I'm still working on a specific order -- but the order that follows is the order they were published.)

Astonishing X-Men
X-Man
Factor X
Generation Next
Amazing X-Men
X-Calibre
Weapon X
Gambit and the X-Ternals

Save Amazing X-Men #4 for last. Then, finish up with:

Age of Apocalypse: the Chosen
X-Universe #1-2
X-Men Omega

And you've just read the Age of Apocalypse! Enjoy...

-Jeph! 

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Re: AoA reading order
Posted by David Hall on January 29, 2004 at 09:37:53:
In Reply to: AoA reading order 
posted by Jeph! on January 29, 2004 at 03:37:04:

This brings up an important point, namely that we have a four month AOA gap in the MCP. While most of the AOA characters do not appear in later comics, they are at least as deserving of inclusion in the MCP as the Mutant X characters, or the 2013 characters are. (IMO moreso, as the AOA crossover seems to have more lasting effects on continuity than some other timelines do.)

I have been mainly working on adding issues for the 1996-7 gap. Russ has been getting a lot of emails from me for the various X-Titles during that time period, and I intend to continue on that project until it is closed.

After that, I'll probably start on the AOA gap, unless someone else closes it first.


David

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Re: AoA reading order
Posted by Rob on January 29, 2004 at 10:57:02:
In Reply to: Re: AoA reading order 
posted by David Hall on January 29, 2004 at 09:37:53:

Wow guys thank you so much, that is more than I had hoped for. Keep up the good work here. 

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Re: AoA reading order
Posted by David Hall on January 29, 2004 at 21:18:57:
In Reply to: Re: AoA reading order 
posted by Rob on January 29, 2004 at 10:57:02:

Now that I am at home, I'll post my AOA Chronology:

Age of Apocalypse:
X-MEN CHRONICLES 1
TALES FROM THE AGE OF APOCALYPSE: SINISTER BLOODLINES
X-MEN CHRONICLES 2 
TALES FROM THE AGE OF APOCALYPSE 
X-MAN MINUS ONE
AGE OF APOCALYPSE: THE CHOSEN 1
BLINK 1-4
X-MEN ALPHA 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 1
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 1
GENERATION NEXT 1
WEAPON X 1
AMAZING X-MEN 1
AMAZING X-MEN 2
WEAPON X 2
FACTOR X 1
FACTOR X 2
X-CALIBRE 1
X-CALIBRE 2 
X-MAN 1
X-MAN 2
ASTONISHING X-MEN 2
GENERATION NEXT 2
GENERATION NEXT 3
GENERATION NEXT 4
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 2
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 3
X-CALIBRE 3
X-CALIBRE 4
ASTONISHING X-MEN 3
FACTOR X 3
AMAZING X-MEN 3
X-MAN 3
X-MAN 4
FACTOR X 4
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 4
WEAPON X 3
X UNIVERSE 1
X UNIVERSE 2
WEAPON X 4 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 4
AMAZING X-MEN 4
X-MEN OMEGA 

-Dave

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Re: AoA reading order
Posted by Jeph! on January 29, 2004 at 22:55:29:
In Reply to: Re: AoA reading order 
posted by David Hall on January 29, 2004 at 21:18:57:

Hmm. This is ... substantially different from the one I put together.

Unfortunately, mine isn't annotated, so simply posting it without comment wouldn't be very helpful.

David, do you have an annotated version of this, where you list WHY you placed specific books where you did?

I'll see what I can do about annotating mine up...

-Jeph! 

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Re: AoA reading order
Posted by David Hall on January 30, 2004 at 00:41:46:
In Reply to: Re: AoA reading order 
posted by Jeph! on January 29, 2004 at 22:55:29:

I do not, I would be happy to put one together so we could compare, but right now my main focus is on Gap #2, there is about 30+ more issues that I want to write up and send to Russ.

Still, the AOA has always been a big favorite of mine. I suspect that with some of these titles, the order can be shuffled and still be in a good chronological order.

I'll see what I can do.....
Dave

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CA4, Alias, DD2, Deadline, PUN6, etc., etc.
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 29, 2004 at 16:45:04:

I figured I'd start a new thread rather than continue the one that's getting old.

Lets consider the calendar dates given in the following comics:

April 18 in DD2 34
July 4 in CA4 4.
July 19 in DD2 40, referring to DD2 38 (1-6)
October 8 in DEADLINE 4.

Ive concluded that the first two should be disregarded and that the last two can stand as referenced. The April 18 date could actually be May 18; at least the day of the month would right. The July 4th reference in CA4 4 is given only in the narration, not in in-story dialogue; the fireworks can be explained as a Columbus Day, not an Independence Day, celebration.

Okay, those are the conclusions. So whats the evidence that led me to them? Here goes...

I have three major problems with the April 18 reference. First and foremost, that date falls smack dab in the middle of the Kang War. Now you might say, move the dang Kang War. Well, thats not so easy. Ive tried, but doing so sets into motion a chain reaction of readjustments across dozens of titles that really mucks up temporal references and chronological relationships. Think Avengers, obviously, but then we have the tangle of appearances that weve discussed in other threads  Thunderbolts (and that plethora of heroes in TB 57), X-Treme X-Men, Sweet Charity, and on and on.

Second, April 18 happens to fall on a Thursday on the calendar, not a Wednesday as noted in DD2 34. Of course you could say that my calendar, based on other day/date match-ups, is off base, but in my view some part of that Wednesday, April 18 reference is going to end up to be inaccurate anyway.

Third, the primary interest in pushing DD2 34 back to the April 18 date seems to be for the sake of getting the July 4 reference in CA4 4 to be accurate. It doesnt work. Follow this sequence if DD2 34 actually occurred on April 18...

Thu, 4/18  DD2 34 
Thu, 4/18  DD2 35 (1-18)  the same day as DD2 34
Tue, 5/14  DD2 35 (19-20)  26 days after DD2 35 (1-18)
Wed, 5/15  DD2 35 (21-22)  the day after DD2 35 (19-20)
Wed, 5/15  DD2 36 (1-4)  the same day as DD2 35 (21-22)
Mon, 6/3  DD2 36  three weeks after DD2 36 (1-4); crossover with ALIAS 15
Tue, 6/4  DD2 37 (2-6)  same day as DD2 36
Wed, 6/5  DD2 37 (7-12)  day after DD2 37 (2-6)
Thu, 6/6  DD2 37 (13-21)  day after DD2 37 (7-12)

Okay, we are now four weeks before that July 4 date referenced in CA4 4. Lets leap ahead. CA4 4 must occur after the revelation of Captain Americas identity in CA4 3. Lets say that CA4 3 occurs the day before CA4 4 (which makes a lot more sense than months earlier, on Easter, for the sake of the story itself; besides, Im giving as much leeway as I can to accommodate the champions of both the April 18 and July 4 dates). So, we have CA4 3 happening on July 3. That means we would have the following dates...

Thu, 7/4  ALIAS 17-FB (9-21)  Jessica learns about Captain America being outed
Thu, 7/4  ALIAS 17  same early morning as ALIAS 17-FB (9-21)
Thu, 7/4  ALIAS 18 (1-12)  same morning as ALIAS 17 (Jessica working for Matt on July 4??)
Thu, 7/4  DAREDEVIL v2 42 (18) ~ ALIAS 18 (8)  a crossover scene that occurs the same day as ALIAS 18 (1-12)

Now, backing up on DD2, we have DD2 42 beginning the day before the crossover scene -- on July 3.

Thus, we would have to fit all DD2 issues from DD2 38 through DD2 41 between June 6 and July 3. As we know from the passage of time in the Hector Ayala story  the few months between his arrest in DD2 38 and trial DD2 40  this is not possible. Therefore, the April 18 and July 4 references are incompatible. One or both should be disregarded.

So, how about discarding April 18 (because of the Kang War) and keeping July 4? Lets try that. If DD2 42 occurs on July 3-4, then working backwards and allowing the few months between DD2 38 and 40, we end up having to put DD2 34-37  and the crossover with ALIAS 15  before the Kang War. BUT, Ant-Man is an Avenger in ALIAS 15, and he certainly isnt an Avenger before the Kang War. So we have to chuck the July 4 date as well.

Here is my proposal for the calendar placement of various issues of Deadline, Daredevil, Alias, and Captain America. Antonio, please note the Spidey appearances:

9/30  DEADLINE 1 (The Cap Whos Under the Mask Now reference, now *before* CA4 3...yay!)
10/1  DEADLINE 2 (Spidey appearance)
10/1  DEADLINE 3
10/1  DEADLINE 4 (1-4)
10/3  DEADLINE 4 (5-21)
10/4  DD2 38 (19-22)
10/7  DD2 39 (1-12)
10/8  DD2 39 (13-22)
10/8  DEADLINE 4 (22-23)  Tuesday, October 8
10/9  DD2 40  a few months after the July 19 arrest of Hector Ayala
10/11  DD2 41
10/12  ALIAS 16 (1-12)
10/13  ALIAS 16 (13-22)
10/13  DD2 42 (1-16)
10/13  CA4 1
10/13  CA4 2
10/13  CA4 3 (Caps ID outed; *not* Easter)
10/13  ALIAS 17-FB (4-7)
10/14  ALIAS 17-FB (9-21)
10/14  ALIAS 17
10/14  ALIAS 18 (1-12)
10/14  DD2 42 (17)
10/14  DD2 43 (Spidey appearance)
10/14  DD2 44
10/14  CA4 4  Columbus Day, not July 4
10/14  CA4 5 (1-15)
10/14  ALIAS 18 (13-16)
10/15  ALIAS 18 (17-22)
10/15  ALIAS 19
10/15  ALIAS 20 (1-6)
10/15  CA4 5 (16-22)
10/15  CA4 6
10/15  DD2 45 (1-8)
10/16  DD2 45 (9-21)
10/16  DD2 46 (1-10)
10/16  ALIAS 20 (7-21)
10/17  ALIAS 21 (1-2, 6-16)
10/17  DD2 46 (11-15)
10/19  PUN6 33 (Spidey appearance)
10/19  PUN6 34 (Spidey appearance)
10/19  PUN6 35 (Spidey appearance)
10/19  PUN6 36 (1-13) (Spidey appearance)
10/27  PUN6 36 (14-17)  eight days after PUN6 36 (1-13) (Spidey appearance)
10/27  PUN6 37-FB
10/27  PUN6 36 (18-22) (Spidey appearance)
10/27  PUN6 37 (1-17) (Spidey appearance)
10/30  DD2 47-FB (1-13)  the next full moon slot after DD2 46 (1-15)
10/31  DD2 47-FB (14-20)
11/1  DD2 46 (16-21)
11/1  DD2 48
11/1  DD2 49
11/2  DD2 50  nearly a year to the day before DD2 56*
12/11  DD2 51
12/12  DD2 52 (1-21)
12/13  DD2 56-FB (5-6)
12/14  DD2 56-FB (7)  six weeks after DD2 50
12/26  DD2 52 (22-23)
12/26  DD2 53 (1-3)

*Interestingly, exactly one year to the day after DD2 50 would end up being the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November, a traditional day for an election. Could it be that the mayoral election referenced in the current DD2 storyline is pegged for that date? Granted, in the real world they had a late September mayoral election in New York the last time around.

Going further, to fit calendar references in subsequent issues of CA4, Ive decided to pull a Soldier X on the temporal references in CA4 7, making it occur four *weeks* instead of four months after CA4 3.

11/8  CA4 11FB (4p3-4p4)
11/8  CA4 11FB (5p1-5p3)
11/8  CA4 7FB (17p5)
11/8  CA4 7 (1-15)
11/10  CA4 7 (16-23)
11/10  CA4 8
11/10  CA4 9
11/10  CA4 10
11/10  CA4 11
11/11  CA4 12 (a story I thought fit to put on Veterans Day)
11/11  CA4 13
11/11  CA4 14
11/12  CA4 15
11/12  CA4 16
11/30  CA4 21 (1-6)  November
12/15  CA4 21 (7-21)
12/21  CA4 22 (1-7)  December, Feliz Navidad
12/22  CA4 22 (8-21) (before the falling out with Thor in A3 63)
12/23  IM3 62  lots of Christmas references
12/23  IM3 63  ditto

Thus, not only does the Columbus Day placement of CA4 4 work well with the July 19 arrest of Hector Ayala, but by pulling the Soldier X on CA4 7, the Columbus Day substitution for July 4 in CA4 4 works well with the Christmas of CA4 22.

Okay, so why cant we pull a Soldier X on the few months reference in DD2 40? Because I feel that having just a few *weeks* elapse between DD2 38 and DD2 40 is an unrealistic time frame for the legal system to move, and it detracts from the level of frustration and desperation that Hector felt by the time he went to trial.

So how about it? Does this help resolve a lot of the calendar placement issues weve been discussing lately?

 Paul B.

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Re: CA4, Alias, DD2, Deadline, PUN6, etc., etc.
Posted by Kevin on January 30, 2004 at 12:01:06:
In Reply to: CA4, Alias, DD2, Deadline, PUN6, etc., etc. 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 29, 2004 at 16:45:04:

Okay Paul. I studied it long and hard, going over your post here...and I've come to one conclusion:

It's all Alias's fault. ;-)

From the way you guys describe that one scene, yes, it appears to have happened right after CAP unmasked. And Antman being an Avenger in Alias 15 is tricky too...

As I don't have Alias issues, (yet...one of these days I'll have to get around to collecting those issues) just how strong is that Antman reference? Is he maybe talking about his status as a reserve Avenger, (which he's been for some time)...

At any rate, I think your proposal for the whole scheme of things probably is for the best...

So going by that calender you just gave, the order in which the heroes are "unmasked" is...

First Daredevil
Then Iron Man
Last Cap. America

Correct?

Maybe Alias isn't the problem...the whole chronology for Cap. America since the reboot has been messed up. In the first issue, they wanted to make it "7 months" after Sept. 11th, on Easter. In March. That was the month it was published. Then they wanted to have Issue 4 happen on July 4th, because July was the real month in which it was published. It seems that they were trying to use real life dates to suit their needs...forgetting that the Marvel Universe works at a slower rate. So in the end, I suppose they're incompatable...

It's just a shame: We have Easter references, and July 4th references, and we can't use them...but I agree the reference to CAP's unmasking in Alias #17 takes precedence. 

			*	*	*

Re: CA4, Alias, DD2, Deadline, PUN6, etc., etc.
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 30, 2004 at 21:14:44:
In Reply to: Re: CA4, Alias, DD2, Deadline, PUN6, etc., etc. 
posted by Kevin on January 30, 2004 at 12:01:06:

> From the way you guys describe that one scene, yes, it appears to have happened right after CAP unmasked. And Antman being an Avenger in Alias 15 is tricky too...

> As I don't have Alias issues, (yet...one of these days I'll have to get around to collecting those issues) just how strong is that Antman reference? Is he maybe talking about his status as a reserve Avenger, (which he's been for some time)...

See my response to Antonio about other reasons why placing ALIAS 15 before the Kang War won't work.


> So going by that calender you just gave, the order in which the heroes are "unmasked" is...

> First Daredevil
> Then Iron Man
> Last Cap. America

> Correct?

Yes, Matt in mid-May, Tony in late June, and (now) Steve in mid-October.


> Maybe Alias isn't the problem...the whole chronology for Cap. America since the reboot has been messed up. In the first issue, they wanted to make it "7 months" after Sept. 11th, on Easter. In March. That was the month it was published. Then they wanted to have Issue 4 happen on July 4th, because July was the real month in which it was published. It seems that they were trying to use real life dates to suit their needs...forgetting that the Marvel Universe works at a slower rate. So in the end, I suppose they're incompatable...

> It's just a shame: We have Easter references, and July 4th references, and we can't use them...but I agree the reference to CAP's unmasking in Alias #17 takes precedence.

Yes, that whole three-month gap between CA4 3 and 4 just didn't make sense at all from the POV of story development, given the urgency of the terrorist situation.

And that Cap unmasking reference in ALIAS 17 *really* needs to occur within a day after CA4 3. It's HUGE news, and Jessica didn't know about it until she was given the news in ALIAS 17.

--Paul B.

			*	*	*

Re: CA4, Alias, DD2, Deadline, PUN6, etc., etc.
Posted by Antonio Gavio on January 30, 2004 at 14:58:50:
In Reply to: CA4, Alias, DD2, Deadline, PUN6, etc., etc. 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 29, 2004 at 16:45:04:

Ok, the April 18 in DD2 34 should be discarded but, as I have mentioned to you before your May 18 placement conflicts with the June 10 reference in PPSM2 44, see:
6/10 PPSM2 44
6/13 PPSM2 45 (1-13)
6/14 PPSM2 45 (14-22)
6/14 PPSM2 46
6/14 PPSM2 47 (1-17)
June 14 is the day when Peter has a busy morning finding out about Flash Thompson's condition, and given your May 18 placement for DD2 34, it would be the same morning Matt Murdock gives his press conference (with Peter present) denying he is Daredevil. So I'd move DD2 34 four days earlier to May 14.

Ant-Man mentions in ALIAS 15 he has "Avengers status" (he doesn't say he "is" an Avenger) but then, as mentioned by others before, Ant-Man has been helping the Avengers since before the Kang War.

You seem to be forgetting that the real temporal references in Deadline are: "Six months after June" and the snow falling in issue 4. I would disregard an "October 8" date that appears in every single Bugle edition from different days troughout the story.

The placement of the Punisher issues works better in October as you have it now, instead of September, but there's a little nagging
thing: October 27 is a Sunday, and that would be the day the Punisher calls Murdock at his office. If Matt is working on a Sunday, would the Punisher know that? or would he try to reach Matt at normal office hours?

Antonio 

			*	*	*

Re: CA4, Alias, DD2, Deadline, PUN6, etc., etc.
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 30, 2004 at 21:05:26:
In Reply to: Re: CA4, Alias, DD2, Deadline, PUN6, etc., etc. 
posted by Antonio Gavio on January 30, 2004 at 14:58:50:

> Ok, the April 18 in DD2 34 should be discarded but, as I have mentioned to you before your May 18 placement conflicts with the June 10 reference in PPSM2 44, see:
> 6/10 PPSM2 44
> 6/13 PPSM2 45 (1-13)
> 6/14 PPSM2 45 (14-22)
> 6/14 PPSM2 46
> 6/14 PPSM2 47 (1-17)
> June 14 is the day when Peter has a busy morning finding out about Flash Thompson's condition, and given your May 18 placement for DD2 34, it would be the same morning Matt Murdock gives his press conference (with Peter present) denying he is Daredevil. So I'd move DD2 34 four days earlier to May 14.

I don't have that "June 10" issue happening in on that date, so the scheduling conflict isn't an issue...yet. Gotta get that final Spidey calendar so I know I'm spot-checking the wall crawler's appearances correctly. Then the necessary adjustments will follow. ;)


> Ant-Man mentions in ALIAS 15 he has "Avengers status" (he doesn't say he "is" an Avenger) but then, as mentioned by others before, Ant-Man has been helping the Avengers since before the Kang War.

Well, if you don't buy the Ant-Man-as-Avenger argument, there's another problem with placing ALIAS #15 before the Kang War. In ALIAS #15, Scott and Jessica talk about Matt's being outed as Daredevil, and that doesn't happen until after the Kang War (straddling April-May), if you agree that DD2 34 does indeed occur in May, as you note above.

Then, there's that tremendously long "three-month" pregancy of Jessica's we have to try to minimize, so it's best not to push ALIAS issues back too far. Grr...


> You seem to be forgetting that the real temporal references in Deadline are: "Six months after June" and the snow falling in issue 4. I would disregard an "October 8" date that appears in every single Bugle edition from different days troughout the story.

I'm not forgeting it at all; I'm still waffling between calendar placements for DEADLINE, and I thought it would be great to use the October reference and get that "Who's Behind the Mask Now?" reference before a near-Columbus Day placement of CA4 3. Still, you have to admit the coats and freezing weather in DEADLINE are more consistent with the December placement. So, how does that Spidey battle with Doc Ock in DEADLINE #2 work out on the Spidey calendar? (nudge, nudge)


> The placement of the Punisher issues works better in October as you have it now, instead of September, but there's a little nagging
> thing: October 27 is a Sunday, and that would be the day the Punisher calls Murdock at his office. If Matt is working on a Sunday, would the Punisher know that? or would he try to reach Matt at normal office hours?

There's no harm in bumping the whole PUN6 storyline up one day (October 20-28). Might even explain where the heck Logan was at the beginning of X 135, which I have on Oct. 20. Yes, that means I'm proposing that the Riot at Xavier's would occur during the eight-day gap between pages 13 and 14 of PUN6 36 -- which I know would violate some rule about keeping story arcs "intact" in character chronologies. ;)

--Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oops
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 31, 2004 at 15:37:37:
In Reply to: Re: CA4, Alias, DD2, Deadline, PUN6, etc., etc. 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 30, 2004 at 21:05:26:

> There's no harm in bumping the whole PUN6 storyline up one day (October 20-28). Might even explain where the heck Logan was at the beginning of X 135, which I have on Oct. 20. Yes, that means I'm proposing that the Riot at Xavier's would occur during the eight-day gap between pages 13 and 14 of PUN6 36 -- which I know would violate some rule about keeping story arcs "intact" in character chronologies. ;)

Oops. Nix that. We moved the riot to just before summer; for some reason, I neglected to delete it from the original fall placement. Ugh. Well at least it makes it easier to put the Punisher story in that October slot. :)

--Paul 

			*	*	*

Punisher Update...
Posted by Kevin on January 29, 2004 at 16:56:36:

Paul B:

A few weeks back, I told you I'd give the first issue of the new Punisher Max series a try and we'd see from their whether I'd keep collecting, (and thus, give you chronology reviews for the title). Well, I've picked up issues 1 and 2 now, and yes, I'll stick with this title for a while to come. 

It was thought that this latest Punisher series was set in the past, in Frank's early days as the Punisher, when he and Micro were partners. Paul O. mentioned it, and I thought the same thing, (apparently it was an internet rumor going around or something), but after going over the title I've seen numerous references to place this current series in the present. Yes, Micro's in this story, but that's because he's the focus of it. This is the first time Micro's seen the Punisher in years, (when was their last issue together anyway?)

So I'll gladly do chronology reviews for this latest series, Paul, if needed. The tone for this series is more my style...the writer, (Garth Ennis) admitted recently in an interview that the last Punisher series was him just winking at the audience, saying, "This isn't real..." but he says he's striving for a darker tone in the MAX line...

Well, this new Punisher feels 'for real', that's for certain! ;-)

And so, if this takes place in current chronology, then some time has passed since the last series, (which ended with that storyline featuring Hulk/Daredevil/Spiderman, which is causing us all sorts of placement problems, or it was...)

Well, I already see numerour references to summer time: warm weather outfits on some people, green trees, and most importantly, in the first issue, Frank goes to visit the graves of his family, which he notes were massacred, (as we all know) in the park during a summer picnic. Though not outright spoken, I believe this date is supposed to be the anniversary of thier deaths. Micro notes that Frank visits thier gravesite once every year on the same date, (though what that date is, isn't given)...but if this is summer, then if you still had the PUN #33-37 issues happening in Sept. or Oct., (near DD#50) then this new MAX series could start up the following summer.... 

			*	*	*

Re: Punisher Update...
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 29, 2004 at 17:04:15:
In Reply to: Punisher Update... 
posted by Kevin on January 29, 2004 at 16:56:36:

> So I'll gladly do chronology reviews for this latest series, Paul, if needed. 

That's great, Kevin. Thanks!


> And so, if this takes place in current chronology, then some time has passed since the last series, (which ended with that storyline featuring Hulk/Daredevil/Spiderman, which is causing us all sorts of placement problems, or it was...)

See the message I just posted, suggesting a new October placement for that last PUN6 story.


> Well, I already see numerour references to summer time: warm weather outfits on some people, green trees, and most importantly, in the first issue, Frank goes to visit the graves of his family, which he notes were massacred, (as we all know) in the park during a summer picnic. Though not outright spoken, I believe this date is supposed to be the anniversary of thier deaths. Micro notes that Frank visits thier gravesite once every year on the same date, (though what that date is, isn't given)...but if this is summer, then if you still had the PUN #33-37 issues happening in Sept. or Oct., (near DD#50) then this new MAX series could start up the following summer....

That sounds good, and it would mean the series is happening around the same time as a number of others now being published.

--Paul B.

			*	*	*

Re: Punisher Update...
Posted by Dimadick on January 30, 2004 at 13:47:31:
In Reply to: Punisher Update... 
posted by Kevin on January 29, 2004 at 16:56:36:


> It was thought that this latest Punisher series was set in the past, in Frank's early days as the Punisher, when he and Micro were partners. Paul O. mentioned it, and I thought the same thing, (apparently it was an internet rumor going around or something), but after going over the title I've seen numerous references to place this current series in the present. Yes, Micro's in this story, but that's because he's the focus of it. This is the first time Micro's seen the Punisher in years, (when was their last issue together anyway?)

That last issue would be Punisher War Journal #79(1995). That is at least the issue Microchip died. Stone Cold/Derek Smalls launched a rocket at Punisher but killed Micro instead. Derek proceeded in killing Punisher/Carlos Cruz in Punisher War Zone #41 and defeating Bullseye and Punisher/Frank Castle in Punisher War Journal #80. Then he was killed himself by Shotgun/J. R. Walker during that last issue.

That same last issue had Lady Punisher/Lynn Michaels and Payback/Edward Dyson fleeing New York for Wisconsin, releaving Castle of most of his supporting cast at the time. (The Appendix to the Marvel Handbook has profiles of most of them listed under "Punisher characters":http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/apppunis.htm).

Does the new series offer any explanation of Micro's return from the dead? 

			*	*	*

Re: Punisher Update...
Posted by Kevin on January 30, 2004 at 22:25:43:
In Reply to: Re: Punisher Update... 
posted by Dimadick on January 30, 2004 at 13:47:31:

> Does the new series offer any explanation of Micro's return from the dead?


No, not yet it doesn't...and I'm not sure it will tell us how he survived, (given the writer probably doesn't care what happened in some storyline in the mid 90's)...I'm sure we'll be told eventually (in the next few issues) what Micro's been up to these last few years on his own, but how he survived a rocket blast? I'm not crossing my fingers...

Did we actually see Micro's body? His burnt remains?!?! Remember: no body = not dead. 

			*	*	*

Re: Punisher Update...
Posted by Dimadick on January 31, 2004 at 01:48:51:
In Reply to: Re: Punisher Update... 
posted by Kevin on January 30, 2004 at 22:25:43:


> Did we actually see Micro's body? His burnt remains?!?! Remember: no body = not dead.

Frank used Micro's corpse as a shield from Stone Cold's attack. Maybe Micro has one of those previously unknown healing factors?

			*	*	*

"Born"?
Posted by JLH on January 31, 2004 at 04:22:48:

In Reply to: Punisher Update... posted by Kevin on January 29, 2004 at 16:56:36:

Who worked on "Born"? Or is it not considered canon? 

			*	*	*

Re: "Born"?
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 31, 2004 at 06:28:05:
In Reply to: "Born"? 
posted by JLH on January 31, 2004 at 04:22:48:

> Who worked on "Born"? Or is it not considered canon?

BORN is a Garth Ennis story. I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be canon; it takes place at the tail end of the Punisher's time in Vietnam, and it's by the writer of his regular title. 

			*	*	*

Re: "Born"?
Posted by Andy Holcombe on January 31, 2004 at 17:47:57:
In Reply to: Re: "Born"? 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 31, 2004 at 06:28:05:

> BORN is a Garth Ennis story. I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be canon; it takes place at the tail end of the Punisher's time in Vietnam

It cannot be his last time "in-country," though. As I remember it from Punisher: Bloodlines, Frank Castle was stationed at the US Embassy in Saigon when the US ended it's involvement and left on one of the last helicopters out. Of course, the scene at the airport at the end of Born #4 could be after his embassy duty.

			*	*	*

Re: "Born"?
Posted by Kevin on January 31, 2004 at 21:34:10:
In Reply to: Re: "Born"? 
posted by Andy Holcombe on January 31, 2004 at 17:47:57:

I don't know...Paul B., did anyone ever give a chronology review for the "Born" miniseries?

I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be canon either...

But perhaps it all hinges on a question which I don't think has ever clearly been answered:

Did Punisher's family get murdered BEFORE or AFTER the Marvel Age started up, (with the arrival of the Fantastic Four)? I mean, was Punisher's appearance in ASM 129 right after he became the Punisher? Or had he been at it for some time...

			*	*	*

Re: "Born"?
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 31, 2004 at 22:32:18:
In Reply to: Re: "Born"? 
posted by Kevin on January 31, 2004 at 21:34:10:

> I don't know...Paul B., did anyone ever give a chronology review for the "Born" miniseries?

No, but seeing that it's set in the past, I haven't asked for one yet.


> Did Punisher's family get murdered BEFORE or AFTER the Marvel Age started up, (with the arrival of the Fantastic Four)? I mean, was Punisher's appearance in ASM 129 right after he became the Punisher? Or had he been at it for some time...

I'm not sure exactly when Castle's family was murdered, but I do know it was quite some time before ASM 129. IIRC, Castle appeared in MARVELS #3 (set around the time of the Galactus Trilogy of FF 48-50) after he became Punisher.

--Paul B.

			*	*	*

Re: 
Posted by JLH on January 31, 2004 at 23:52:02:
In Reply to: Re: 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 31, 2004 at 22:32:18:

> No, but seeing that it's set in the past, I haven't asked for one yet.

I'd be willing to do it. I have all of his other Vietnam stories (the 5 'Nam appearances, "Punisher Invades the 'Nam" one-shot, and a couple others) for reference.

> I'm not sure exactly when Castle's family was murdered, but I do know it was quite some time before ASM 129. IIRC, Castle appeared in MARVELS #3 (set around the time of the Galactus Trilogy of FF 48-50) after he became Punisher.

According to "Punisher: Year One", he became the Punisher while Peter Parker was working at the Daily Bugle. But according to ASM 202, Frank mentions to Spidey he's been fighting crime for 10 years. I suppose he could be overstating it, given all the injuries he's taken. Or he could be counting his time in the war, even.

Speaking of P:YO, it clearly states the Castle family was murdered in the Spring, not the Summer as the MAX issue currently claims.

			*	*	*

Punisher
Posted by Paul Bourcier on February 01, 2004 at 08:59:35:
In Reply to: Re: 
posted by JLH on January 31, 2004 at 23:52:02:

> I'd be willing to do it. I have all of his other Vietnam stories (the 5 'Nam appearances, "Punisher Invades the 'Nam" one-shot, and a couple others) for reference.

Go for it, JLH!

> According to "Punisher: Year One", he became the Punisher while Peter Parker was working at the Daily Bugle. But according to ASM 202, Frank mentions to Spidey he's been fighting crime for 10 years. I suppose he could be overstating it, given all the injuries he's taken. Or he could be counting his time in the war, even.

> Speaking of P:YO, it clearly states the Castle family was murdered in the Spring, not the Summer as the MAX issue currently claims.

We can reconcile both references by placing the murder of Castle's family in June, after the end of the school year but before the official start of summer. I would suggest the June following Spider-Man's debut, which I think would end up being seven, not ten, years before ASM 202.

--Paul B.

			*	*	*

Vietnam Era Punisher Stories
Posted by Andy Holcombe on February 01, 2004 at 12:46:05:
In Reply to: Re: 
posted by JLH on January 31, 2004 at 23:52:02:

> I'd be willing to do it. I have all of his other Vietnam stories (the 5 'Nam appearances, "Punisher Invades the 'Nam" one-shot, and a couple others) for reference.

Off hand, I can think of Punisher: Return to Big Nothing, Punisher: The Origin of Microchip, and Punisher: War Journal #4-5 as having some Veitnam era scenes. Punisher: Bloodlines has some dialouge relevant to his Vietnam career, if not actual flashback scenes. I believe all of the Vietnam stories other than The 'Nam 67-69 and the opening of The Punisher Invades the 'Nam: Final Invasion feature Frank Castle and not Frank Castiglione.

The MCP lists the following books as taking place between flashbacks of Return to Big Nothing:
PUN@ 4-FB
PUN2 59-FB
PWJ 18-FB

I've provided the MCP with analysis of some of these books. If you would like, I can e-mail them to you and you can compare them to your own placement.

			*	*	*

Mystique and New X-Men
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 29, 2004 at 16:59:29:

Again, starting a new thread from a question Jeph posed far down on an old thread...

The latest Mystique story, ending in this week's issue #10, must occur before the Xorn-Magneto/Xavier crippling story that culminated in X 150.

In Mystique #10, Mystique finishes her assignment in South Africa. "Twelve hours later," she's back at her Brooklyn safehouse, where she finds Forge. Here's the dialogue...

M: "Forge? Where Xavier? The Prof's usually here for the post-game."

F: "He's...indisposed right now, Mystique. I'm not sure if you've seen the news, but there's been some drama over at the school."

M: "What, evil-mutant-end-of-the-world drama? Come on, you and I both know everything will be back to normal in six months. Real change only ever happens here, behind the scenes."

I don't believe the newsworthy school event is the riot from X 135-137; that probably would muck chronology up a bit. Rather, I believe that Xavier went back to the school to appear in X 146, in which he is seen on page 1 summoning the X-Men via Cerebra and citing an "emergency." By the time Mystique returned to her safehouse, the situation had become newsworthy, with Magneto destroying the school in X 147-FB (20-21) and starting his takeover of Manhattan. Of course, that wouldn't explain why Forge just chooses to stay at the safehouse and not respond to the emergency in any way. You might say that he was waiting for Mystique to arrive so they could team up and kick Magneto's butt, but instead of asking her to help, Forge actually asks Mystique if she'd like to go out for a cup of coffee. Say what?

--Paul 

			*	*	*

Re: Mystique and New X-Men
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 29, 2004 at 17:19:25:
In Reply to: Mystique and New X-Men 
posted by Paul Bourcier on January 29, 2004 at 16:59:29:

> I don't believe the newsworthy school event is the riot from X 135-137; that probably would muck chronology up a bit.

Would it, really? MYSTIQUE hasn't interacted all that much with the events in NEW X-MEN. 

Along these lines, worth noting that there seems to be a sudden outburst of inter-title continuity in the X-books this week. In X-TREME X-MEN #40, Sage tries to contact the Xavier Institute. She finds that it's offline, and the New X-Men team are incommunicado. The art shows the mansion wrecked. Since Magneto's attack on New York hasn't hit the news yet, this pins X-TREME #40 between NEW X-MEN #146-147. 

			*	*	*

Re: Mystique and New X-Men
Posted by Jeph! on January 29, 2004 at 22:59:02:
In Reply to: Re: Mystique and New X-Men 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 29, 2004 at 17:19:25:

> Would it, really? MYSTIQUE hasn't interacted all that much with the events in NEW X-MEN.

Here's how the logic goes:

In UX #435-436, Xavier mentions the Riot.

UX #429-434 occur "three days" before #435-436, therefore they are also probably after the Riot. Mystique returns from Abyss' dimension in this story arc.

Therefore, Mystique #1-10 must occur after UX #434 ... and therefore most likely after the Riot.

Boy, that gap between X #141-142 is just growing and growing, isn't it?

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Daredevil: Yellow #5-6
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 29, 2004 at 17:14:49:

I notice that neither DD:Y 5 or 6 appears in character listings. I recently picked up DD:Y 6, although I still don't have DD:Y 5. Here's the suggested placement.

DD:Y 6-FB occurs the day after DD 5 and the day after that. The flashback opens with a shot of a newspaper headline about DD's defeat of the Matador from DD 5. The story ends up involving the Purple Man, who has been incarcerated since his defeat in DD2 4. Curiously, DD wears the red and yellow tights that feature one "D" on the chest, even though he had abandoned that outfit for the yellow and red costume with "DD" on the chest in DD 5. Maybe the new outfit was in the wash...

So, DD:Y 6-FB should be placed between DD 5 and 6 in the chronologies for Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, and Karen Page. It should be placed after DD 4 in Purple Man's chronology.

I also placed Daredevil in the framing sequence (narration) of DD:Y 1-6 between DD2 25 and Sweet Charity (more precisely, on March 19 before the Kang War).

--Paul B. 

			*	*	*

ASM2 503 and Thor
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 29, 2004 at 17:26:03:

Now here's a headache title. Unless the THOR continuity reset is really drastic, ASM2 503 is going to take some serious explaining.

Plot involves magic thingy happening in New York and Loki turning up to investigate. So far so good. But... Loki's in Asgard. Asgard is in its home dimension. Loki says he has "seldom visited" New York. And several references to the Allfather in Loki's dialogue make it abundantly clear that Odin is alive.

Owwww..... 

			*	*	*

Re: ASM2 503 and Thor
Posted by Kevin on January 30, 2004 at 12:16:16:
In Reply to: ASM2 503 and Thor 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 29, 2004 at 17:26:03:

Well, I just read it for myself, and it is a tad tricky...

Let's start by ignoring the remark "seldom visited" Loki says in regards to New York. Maybe for an immortal, a city that's only been in existence since 4 centuries, (and has only been a true metropolis the last 150-200 years), isn't really a place visited much, to him anyway...

Now on the other hand, I'm a little perplexed on Asgard's placement. That one panel seems to look like it's back in it's own dimension, but could that just be a starry sky above NYC at night?

But whereever Asgard is, it's probably moot, because Thor was in ASM #498 to 500, in his old costume. And as it stands now, we're waiting for Thor continuity to jump back to normal, with Thor no longer playing "Lord of Earth" in his title...

As for Odin still being alive, I don't see that from Loki's remarks. He says, (in regards to his having to sneak in and out of Asgard): "Heimdall, ever faithful, guards the Rainbow Bridge from anyone coming or going without the Allfather's permission."

Yes, the Allfather is Odin, but Heimdall's carrying on a practice he started under Odin's rule. Thor may be ruler still, but it's Odin's law that Heimdall guard the way in and out forever and ever...

However, all this depends on what the reboot in Thor brings in the coming months, (upon the Thor title returning to modern times)... 

			*	*	*

X-STATIX 21 and Thor
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 30, 2004 at 21:41:39:
In Reply to: Re: ASM2 503 and Thor 
posted by Kevin on January 30, 2004 at 12:16:16:

> > Now here's a headache title. Unless the THOR continuity reset is really drastic, ASM2 503 is going to take some serious explaining.

-- And so will X-Statix #21, an April release whose cover shows Thor in classic costume fighting X-Statix alongside the Avengers.

We're still half a year away from any potential reboot or other continuity resolution in Thor. Come on, we're dyin' here... :-(

--Paul B. 

			*	*	*

Re: ASM2 503 and Thor
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 31, 2004 at 06:12:56:
In Reply to: Re: ASM2 503 and Thor 
posted by Kevin on January 30, 2004 at 12:16:16:

> Now on the other hand, I'm a little perplexed on Asgard's placement. That one panel seems to look like it's back in it's own dimension, but could that just be a starry sky above NYC at night?

No. It's full of Generic Cosmic Stuff. And we've got a scene of Loki having to sneak down to Earth by tricking his way past Heimdall so that he can use the Rainbow Bridge. If Asgard was over New York, he'd just jump off the side!

Besides, I can't accept that Loki would describe New York as "a land they call New York, a place I have seldom visited" if he was hovering directly above it at the time.

> As for Odin still being alive, I don't see that from Loki's remarks. He says, (in regards to his having to sneak in and out of Asgard): "Heimdall, ever faithful, guards the Rainbow Bridge from anyone coming or going without the Allfather's permission."

That seems to me crystal clear. The Allfather is Odin. (Nobody's ever applied the term to Thor, and in terms of norse mythology it wouldn't make sense.) Heimdall cannot possibly be deciding on entry and exit from Asgard according to the "Allfather's permission" unless Odin actually exists and is in a position to give his permission. Heimdall can't possibly have locked the entry and exit rules permanently when Odin died, on the basis that nobody has authority to change them. Obviously, Thor has authority to change them once he inherits the throne.

Loki simply wouldn't describe the arrangements in those words unless Odin was actually running Asgard at the time. It's the only reading that doesn't distort the language. 

			*	*	*

Re: ASM2 503 and Thor
Posted by Kevin on January 31, 2004 at 16:24:53:
In Reply to: Re: ASM2 503 and Thor 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 31, 2004 at 06:12:56:

> > Now on the other hand, I'm a little perplexed on Asgard's placement. That one panel seems to look like it's back in it's own dimension, but could that just be a starry sky above NYC at night?

> No. It's full of Generic Cosmic Stuff. And we've got a scene of Loki having to sneak down to Earth by tricking his way past Heimdall so that he can use the Rainbow Bridge. If Asgard was over New York, he'd just jump off the side!

> Besides, I can't accept that Loki would describe New York as "a land they call New York, a place I have seldom visited" if he was hovering directly above it at the time.

Well, after further looking it over, you're probably right...that is a "Cosmic" background...


> > As for Odin still being alive, I don't see that from Loki's remarks. He says, (in regards to his having to sneak in and out of Asgard): "Heimdall, ever faithful, guards the Rainbow Bridge from anyone coming or going without the Allfather's permission."

> That seems to me crystal clear. The Allfather is Odin. (Nobody's ever applied the term to Thor, and in terms of norse mythology it wouldn't make sense.) Heimdall cannot possibly be deciding on entry and exit from Asgard according to the "Allfather's permission" unless Odin actually exists and is in a position to give his permission. Heimdall can't possibly have locked the entry and exit rules permanently when Odin died, on the basis that nobody has authority to change them. Obviously, Thor has authority to change them once he inherits the throne.

> Loki simply wouldn't describe the arrangements in those words unless Odin was actually running Asgard at the time. It's the only reading that doesn't distort the language.

Well, we never do see Odin in the issue. I suspect we can manipulate those words to fit our needs, (remember how we manipulated the Scarlet Witchs comments to Henry Pym, about his using the Yellowjacket costume in Avengers?)...I'm just saying we can work around that comment if needed...

However, all this hinges on what's coming up in Thor in the next few months...we're really just having to wait and see at this point. 

			*	*	*

Re: ASM2 503 and Thor
Posted by Andy Holcombe on January 31, 2004 at 18:06:24:
In Reply to: Re: ASM2 503 and Thor 
posted by Kevin on January 31, 2004 at 16:24:53:

> However, all this hinges on what's coming up in Thor in the next few months...we're really just having to wait and see at this point.

I haven't been paying as close attention as I probably should have, but is there any reason, this story couldn't predate the death of Odin? I guess it hinges on the Spider-Man appearance in Thor (vol. 2) #51. Has Peter reconciled with Mary Jane? I don't remember any Asgard-over-New-York appearances in the Spider-titles, but I could have missed them. Not trying to open a can of worms here, but we may need to look at something like this. 

			*	*	*

Re: ASM2 503 and Thor
Posted by Paul Bourcier on January 31, 2004 at 22:28:12:
In Reply to: Re: ASM2 503 and Thor 
posted by Andy Holcombe on January 31, 2004 at 18:06:24:

> > However, all this hinges on what's coming up in Thor in the next few months...we're really just having to wait and see at this point.

> I haven't been paying as close attention as I probably should have, but is there any reason, this story couldn't predate the death of Odin? I guess it hinges on the Spider-Man appearance in Thor (vol. 2) #51. Has Peter reconciled with Mary Jane? I don't remember any Asgard-over-New-York appearances in the Spider-titles, but I could have missed them. Not trying to open a can of worms here, but we may need to look at something like this.

For Odin to be alive, ASM2 57-ASM 500 would need to occur before page 22 of T2 32. The appearance of the Avengers in this Spider-Man story would be shortly after Thor's return to the Avengers in A3 55, following the end of the Kang War. This approach would place ASM 500 exactly a year before its current placement. T2 51 gives no clue about Spidey's chronological placement and so it's conceivable for T2 51 to occur after ASM 500.

HOWEVER...

#1) I would think that it would be virtually impossible to cram Spidey's chronology up to ASM2 57 into the period prior to the Kang War.

#2) PPSM2 53 is supposed to occur during the Asgard-over-Manhattan storyline, and PPSM2 53 occurs before MJ's return.

#3) As I noted, we'll still have to explain X-Statix #21 as well, and that would involve even more "timesliding." (Ooh, doesn't that term bring back bad memories?)

So I really don't want to consider sliding Spidey's entire chronology back to accommodate ASM2 57-ASM 500. Does Odin return? Does Thor return to his classic costume and rejoin the Avengers? It will be a while before we know for sure, and it's frustrating.

I just wonder what kind of reset we'll be looking at. There were several issues in several titles that tied into the Asgard-over-Manhattan storyline; will these no longer be part of the mainstream MU timeline? Given the connectedness of inter-title continuity, what kind of ripple effect will that have on related stories?

--Paul B.

			*	*	*

C2 32 Analysis
C2 32
June, 1996
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Artists: Ian Churchill and Scott Hanna
Appearances: Cable, Domino, Post, Blaquesmith, Onslaught  BTS
Synopsis: Cable and Domino attack Camp Hayden in Kentucky and Post watches them. On the last page, Onslaught blows up the ship Blaquesmith is on (without ever appearing).
References: 
General - This takes place after Wolverine 100 and X-Men 50 as it makes references to both issues. It talks about Cables confrontation with X-Man so it obviously takes place after Cable 31.
Domino  This issue mentions X-Forces adventures when they found the word Onslaught on the wall. Unfortunately, I dont know when that takes place, and I dont have X-Force 54, so I cant place this exactly. It was published in the same month as X-Force 55 though, so it probably takes place AFTER 54.
Cable - Im pretty sure this issue takes place before the Storm mini-series because there seems to be a time gap between C2 32 and C2 33 and 33 references the mini-series.
Post - This takes place way before XF 125 as Onslaught has yet to show himself before C2 32, but I believe C2 33 takes place before XF125 as well (you ought to check Posts chronology there.)
Onslaught  I dont have UX 333 so I dont know when this takes place. Again most likely AFTER XFOR 52, since it was published 3 months later, but I dont know if it was before or after UX333. Maybe his dialogue will help you. Hes talking to Blaquesmith. Yes me. Again. I know all I need to about your precious student and I also know he cannot survive all the obstacles now before him without you. Goodbye.
Blaquesmith: Again, most likely AFTER XFOR54, and before C2 33.
No flashbacks.
Hopefully that isnt too confusing. This would be easier if I had access to more issues though. C2 36 and 37 to follow shortly. 

			*	*	*

Re: C2 32 Analysis
Posted by David Hall on January 29, 2004 at 21:15:20:
In Reply to: C2 32 Analysis 
posted by Sean on January 29, 2004 at 19:09:01:

This is what I have for C2 32

Cable 32

June 1996

Main Characters:

Cable (Last App. X-Force #54, Next App. Storm #1)
Domino (Last App. X-Force #54, Next App. Cable #33)

Guest Characters:
Blaquesmith (Last App. X-Force #54, next App BTS in Cable #33)

Villians:
Post (Last App. X 50, Next App. Cable #33)
Onslaught (Last App. UX #333, Next App. Cable 33?)
Various robot defenses at project nimrod

Plot Synopsis: After Tylers funeral (which is not shown), Domino wanted to have a chat with Cable, so he took her to Project Nimrod to steal a computer disk. In the middle of a firefight with robotic defense systems, they do manage to have a heart to heart. When they get the disk, it is useless. Post watches them throughout this issue. On the last two pages, Onslaught (not seen, but we hear his telepathic voice) appears at Blaquesmiths ship, and blows up Blaquesmiths freighter, in an attempt to kill Blaquesmith.

By the way Onslaught should have a BTS listing for Cable 21, with the break in to Blaquesmiths freighter. This would be after the UX 322 BTS listing.

			*	*	*

SPIDERMAN CHRONOLOGY
Posted by JEFF A. BAKER on January 29, 2004 at 19:19:40:

I'M WORKING ON A SPIDER-MAN CHRONOLOGY. JUST WONDERING
IF ANYBODY CAN HELP ME OUT, OR IF ANYONE IS WORKING ON 
ONE ALSO. 

			*	*	*

Re: SPIDERMAN CHRONOLOGY
Posted by Administrator on January 29, 2004 at 19:51:41:
In Reply to: SPIDERMAN CHRONOLOGY 
posted by JEFF A. BAKER on January 29, 2004 at 19:19:40:

> I'M WORKING ON A SPIDER-MAN CHRONOLOGY. JUST WONDERING
> IF ANYBODY CAN HELP ME OUT, OR IF ANYONE IS WORKING ON 
> ONE ALSO.

:blink:

:blink::blink:

I suspect most of us are. Jump right in.

			*	*	*

Onslaught Read List
Posted by David Hall on January 29, 2004 at 21:21:46:

I thought that since I was posting my AOA Chronology/Read list, I might as well post the Onslaught one too.

Dave


ONSLAUGHT:
UNCANNY X-MEN 334
FANTASTIC FOUR 414
X-MEN 54
AVENGERS 400
ONSLAUGHT: X-MEN 1
UNCANNY X-MEN 335
WOLVERINE 104
EXCALIBUR 100
X-MEN UNLIMITED 11
AVENGERS 401
FANTASTIC FOUR 415
X-FACTOR 125
X-FACTOR 126
X-MEN 55
EXCALIBUR 101
CABLE 34
HULK 444
X-MAN 18
X-FORCE 57
UNCANNY X-MEN 336
CABLE 35
X-MAN 19
X-FORCE 58
X-MEN UNLIMITED 12
GENERATION X 18
GENERATION X 19
AMAZING SPIDER MAN 415
GREEN GOBLIN 12
SPIDER-MAN 72
THOR 502
WOLVERINE 105
FANTASTIC FOUR 416
IRON MAN 332
HULK 445
AVENGERS 402
X-MEN 56
ONSLAUGHT: MARVEL UNIVERSE 1

			*	*	*

Re: Onslaught Read List
Posted by Administrator on January 29, 2004 at 22:08:20:
In Reply to: Onslaught Read List 
posted by David Hall on January 29, 2004 at 21:21:46:

This is just the barest portion of David's reading list.

Post the whole thing, David :)

			*	*	*

Re: Onslaught Read List
Posted by David Hall on January 29, 2004 at 23:53:31:
In Reply to: Re: Onslaught Read List 
posted by Administrator on January 29, 2004 at 22:08:20:

Is the world ready for that? 

Okay, but I'm starting a new topic for it.

David

			*	*	*

A few corrections
Posted by david Hall on January 29, 2004 at 21:26:45:

Taking Jeph's advice, here are three corrections:

DARIA
GENX 20
GENX 23
**W2 115
GENX 31

Dark Beast is NOT in:
FF 416

Magneto 2013 does not have a listing:
WDFP 1
WDFP 2
WDFP 3
UX 141

			*	*	*

Onslaught BTS
Posted by Sean on January 29, 2004 at 23:34:18:

Hi. I know I'm not very experienced, and maybe I just have a bad concept of what BTS is, but I'm pretty sure Onslaught doesn't have a BTS appearance in C2 33. Can someone clear this up for me? Thanks. 

			*	*	*

Re: Onslaught BTS
Posted by David Hall on February 01, 2004 at 15:35:29:
In Reply to: Onslaught BTS 
posted by Sean on January 29, 2004 at 23:34:18:

Onslaught does NOT have a BTS app. in Cable 33, rather he has a full on actual appearance. Onslaught appears on the second to last page of c2 33, as a big red floating head talking to Post.

			*	*	*

How to Read the X-Men in Just 40 years

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ Home ] [ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ Chronology Project Web Board ] [ FAQ ]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by David Hall on January 30, 2004 at 00:03:32:

Okay, I've never meade this public before, but since Russ asked......

Keep in mind this takes about 45 pages to print out.
Also that the stuff around OZT needs to be fixed.
(And that I'm taking info from other people for the last few years worth of comics.)

If you of any X-Men appearances that aren't on here, email me at Dhall@mn.rr.com :)

Enjoy,
Dave Hall

X-Men Reading List

RISE OF APOCALYPSE 1-2
RISE OF APOCALYPSE 3
FANTASTIC FOUR 19 (TIME TRAVEL) (TAKES PLACE DURING RISE OF APOCALYPSE 3 AND 4)
RISE OF APOCALYPSE 4
ORIGIN 1-6
LOGAN: PATH OF THE WARLORD
MAGNETO #0 (Reprints of CLASSIC X-MEN 19 and 12 (2nd stories))
CLASSIC X-MEN 19 (2ND STORY) (MAGNETO + ISABELLA)
CLASSIC X-MEN 15 (2ND) (CORSAIR JOINS THE STARJAMMERS)
CLASSIC X-MEN 16 (2ND STORY) (BANSHEES ORIGIN)
X-MEN MINUS ONE FLASHBACK
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 4

MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 72-84 (WEAPON X)
ALPHA FLIGHT MINUS ONE FLASHBACK (Mac, Heather, Puck, Logan)(Mac marries Heather)

WOLVERINE MINUS ONE FLASHBACK
CABLE MINUS ONE FLASHBACK (RAHNE, MOIRA)
WOLVERINE/CABLE: GUTS AND GLORY
BEFORE THE FANTASTIC FOUR: BEN GRIMM AND LOGAN 1-3
LOGAN: SHADOW SOCIETY
ALPHA FLIGHT SPECIAL 1992 (Logan, Mac, Sasquatch, Shaman, Snowbird, Smart Alec)


CLASSIC X-MEN 41-42 (2ND STORIES) (SCOTT AT SINISTERS ORPHANAGE)
X-FACTOR MINUS ONE (ALEX, SINISTER)
UNCANNY X-MEN MINUS ONE (TRASK FAMILY, RACHEL, SANCTITY)
GENERATION X MINUS ONE (EMMA FROST, BANSHEE, DARK BEAST)
THE UNTOLD LEGEND OF CAPTAIN MARVEL 1-3 (DEATHBIRD, BROOD, IMPERIAL GUARD, CAPTAIN MARVEL)


UNCANNY X-MEN 38-42 (2ND STORIES)
AMAZING FANTASY #17
UNCANNY X-MEN 44-46 (2ND STORIES)
UNCANNY X-MEN 54-56 (2ND STORIES)
UNCANNY X-MEN 49-52 (2ND STORIES)
EXCALIBUR MINUS ONE (Kurt leaves the circus)
UNCANNY X-MEN 1
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 1
UNCANNY X-MEN 2
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 2
TALES OF SUSPENSE 49
AVENGERS 3
UNCANNY X-MEN 3
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 3
THOR CORPS 3
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 4 (ALL NEW STORY FEATURING QUICKSILVER AND THE SCARLET WITCH)
UNCANNY X-MEN 4
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 5
UNCANNY X-MEN 5
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 6
STRANGE TALES 120
MARVELS 2
FANTASTIC FOUR 28
UNCANNY X-MEN 6
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 7
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL 1
THOR 109
UNTOLD TALES OF SPIDER-MAN 21
UNCANNY X-MEN 7
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 8
STRANGE TALES 128 (QUICKSILVER & SCARLET WITCH)
UNCANNY X-MEN 8
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 9
UNTOLD TALES OF SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL '97
UNCANNY X-MEN 9
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 10
FANTASTIC FOUR 35-36
UNCANNY X-MEN 10
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 11
UNCANNY X-MEN 11
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 15
MARVEL HEROES & LEGENDS 97
AVENGERS 16 (QUICKSILVER + SCARLET WITCH JOIN AVENGERS)
UNCANNY X-MEN 12
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 12
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 13
UNCANNY X-MEN 13
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 14
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 3 
MARVEL: HEROES AND LEGENDS 1996
UNCANNY X-MEN 14
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 16
UNCANNY X-MEN 15
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 17
UNCANNY X-MEN 16
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 18
UNCANNY X-MEN 17-27
STRANGE TALES 156
UNCANNY X-MEN 28-42
AVENGERS 47-49 (MAGNETO)
UNCANNY X-MEN 43-45
AVENGERS 53
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 71 (QUICKSILVER)
UNCANNY X-MEN 46-48
KA-ZAR QUARTERLY 2, 3, MARVEL TALES 30 (ANGEL)
UNCANNY X-MEN 49-52
AVENGERS 60 (CAMEO)
UNCANNY X-MEN 53
SUB MARINER 14 (60'S SERIES)
UNCANNY X-MEN 54-63 (#54 HAVOK)
FANTASTIC FOUR 102-104 (MAGNETO)
UNCANNY X-MEN 64-65
CLASSIC X-MEN 14 (2ND STORY) (Lilandra, DKen)
UNCANNY X-MEN 66
SECOND STORY IN X-MEN #94
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 1
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 2
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 3
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 4
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 5
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 6
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 7
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 8
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 9
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 10
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 11
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 12
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 13
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 14
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 15
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 16
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 17
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 18 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 19
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 20 
FANTASTIC FOUR #102
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 21
FANTASTIC FOUR #103
FANTASTIC FOUR #104
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 22
AVENGERS 75-76
AMAZING ADVENTURES 9-10 (MAGNETO)
SUB-MARINER 52-54 (SUNFIRE)
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 92
AVENGERS 88 (PROF. X CAMEO)
HULK 150
AMAZING ADVENTURES (BEAST) 11-13
MARVEL TEAM-UP 4
AMAZING ADVENTURES (BEAST) 14-17
HULK 161
AVENGERS 102-105
AVENGERS 110, 111
SHANNA THE SHE DEVIL 5
ADV INTO FEAR 20 (MORBIUS THE LIVING VAMPIRE)
HULK 172
CAPTAIN AMERICA 172-175
AVENGERS 117 (SUNFIRE)
IRON MAN 68, 69, 70 (SUNFIRE)
MARVEL TEAM-UP 23

HULK 180 (WOLVERINE)
HULK 181 (WOLVERINE)
HULK 182 (WOLVERINE)
WHAT IF 31: WOLVERINE HAD KILLED THE HULK? (Not in chronology, but this is the divergence point.)
ALPHA FLIGHT 9 (2ND STORY) (Aurora, Logan)

DEFENDERS 15-16
X-FORCE MINUS ONE (PROUDSTAR BROTHERS, BOOM-BOOM, HER DAD, PROUDSTAR PARENTS, WHITECLOUD, MYSTIQUE, DESTINY, RINGMASTER) 

GIANT SIZE X-MEN 1
CLASSIC X-MEN 1 (2ND STORY)

UNCANNY X-MEN 94 (1ST PART)
CLASSIC X-MEN 27 (2ND STORY)
CAPTAIN AMERICA 183 (BEAST PHONE)

FANTASTIC FOUR 150 (QUICKSILVER AND CRYSTALS WEDDING)

GIANT SIZE AVENGERS 4 (Vision and Scarlet Wtich wedding)
AVENGERS 137-140
MARVEL TEAM-UP 38
AVENGERS 141-144
AVENGERS 147-149
AVENGERS 145-146
CAPTAIN AMERICA 224
CLASSIC X-MEN 10, 2, 5 (2ND STORY)
GIANT SIZE FANTASTIC FOUR 4
THOR 233 (SCOTT CAMETTE)
UNCANNY X-MEN 94 (2ND PART)
UNCANNY X-MEN 95
CLASSIC X-MEN 3 (2ND)
CHAMPIONS 1-6
IRON MAN 90
AVENGERS 150-153
AVENGERS ANNUAL 6
AVENGERS 154
SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP 9
AVENGERS 155-156
DEFENDERS 44 
MARVEL COMICS SUPER-SPECIAL 1 
AVENGERS 157-160
MARVEL TREASURY EDITION 13 
MS. MARVEL1-4
MS. MARVEL 5
CAPTAIN MARVEL 50
CAPTAIN MARVEL 51
CHAMPIONS 7-11
AVENGERS 161-162
CHAMPIONS 12-13
GHOST RIDER 23 (CHAMPIONS)
CHAMPIONS 14-15
GODZILLA 3 (CHAMPIONS)
IRON MAN ANNUAL 4 (CHAMPIONS)
AVENGERS 163
AVENGERS 164-166
IRON MAN 98 (SUNFIRE) 
IRON MAN 99 (SUNFIRE)
UNCANNY X-MEN 96
CLASSIC X-MEN 4 (2ND)
UNCANNY X-MEN 97
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 161-162
MARVEL TEAM-UP 51
CLASSIC X-MEN 6 (2ND)
MARVEL HOLIDAY SPC 1
UNCANNY X-MEN 98-99
CLASSIC X-MEN 7 (2ND)
UNCANNY X-MEN 100
CLASSIC X-MEN 8 (2ND)
UNCANNY X-MEN 101
MARVEL TEAM-UP ANNUAL 1, MARVEL TEAM-UP 53
MARVEL TALES 262
CLASSIC X-MEN 9 (2ND)
UNCANNY X-MEN 102, 103
CLASSIC X-MEN 11 (2ND)
IRON FIST 11
UNCANNY X-MEN 104

Ms. Marvel 6-10
MTU 62
Ms. Marvel 11-14
UNCANNY X-MEN 105-108
IRON FIST 14 (1ST SABRETOOTH)
IRON FIST 15
UNCANNY X-MEN 109
Power Man and Iron Fist 50
SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP 14
CHAMPIONS 16
CHAMPIONS 17
PPSSPIDER-MAN 17, 18
AVENGERS ANNUAL 7
MARVEL 2-IN-1 ANNUAL 2 
AVENGERS 167-168
MS. MARVEL 15-16
DEFENDERS 58 
MARVEL FANFARE 60/2 (ROGUE, MYSTIQUE, BROTHERHOOD)
MS. MARVEL 17-18
DOCTOR STRANGE (2ND SERIES) 29 
AVENGERS 170-171
CLASSIC X-MEN 28 (2ND)
BIZARRE ADVENTURES 27 (PHOENIX Story, Main FLASHBACK)
UNCANNY X-MEN 110
GHOST RIDER (1st SERIES) #34
CAPTAIN AMERICA ANNUAL 4
CLASSIC X-MEN 12 (2ND)
HULK ANNUAL 7
Classic X-Men 44 (2nd story)
MARVEL TEAM-UP 65-66 (1ST ARCADE)
MARVEL TREASURY ED 26
CLASSIC X-MEN 13, 18,39 (2ND)
CLASSIC X-MEN 17 (2ND)
AVENGERS 172
MARVEL TEAM-UP 69, 70
MS. MARVEL 19
AVENGERS 173-177
MS. MARVEL 20-22
Uncanny X-Men 111-114
CLASSIC X-MEN 21 (2ND)
AVENGERS ANNUAL 8
DEFENDERS 62-65
UNCANNY X-MEN 115, 116
CLASSIC X-MEN 22 (2ND)
UNCANNY X-MEN 117
CLASSIC X-MEN 23 (2ND)
UNCANNY X-MEN 118
CLASSIC X-MEN 24 (2ND)
UNCANNY X-MEN 119-121
PM IF 57
CLASSIC X-MEN 25 (2ND)
UNCANNY X-MEN 122
CLASSIC X-MEN 31 (2ND)
CLASSIC X-MEN 26 (2ND)
UNCANNY X-MEN 123
UNCANNY X-MEN 124
CLASSIC X-MEN 30 (2ND)
CLASSIC X-MEN 29 (2ND)
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 3
MARVEL TEAM-UP 89
BIZARRE ADVENTURES 27 (NIGHTCRAWLER STORY)
AVENGERS 201 (2ND STORY)
THOR 271
AVENGERS 178
DAREDEVIL 155-157
CAPTAIN AMERICA 228
CAPTAIN AMERICA 229
MARVEL TEAM-UP 90
AVENGERS 179-180
UNCANNY X-MEN 125, 126
CLASSIC X-MEN 32, 33 (2ND)
UNCANNY X-MEN 127, 128
CAPTAIN AMERICA 237 
IRON MAN 114
IRON MAN 115 
Avengers 181
MS. MARVEL 23
AVENGERS 182
BLACK PANTHER 14-15

MARVEL TEAM UP 76 (DONT HAVE) (Ms. Marvel)
MARVEL TEAM UP 77 (Ms. Marvel)

AVENGERS 183
AVENGERS 184
Marvel comics presents 160 (Ms. Marvel app. In one panel only, nothing else happens here chronologically)
AVENGERS 185
MARVEL 2-IN-1 51
FF ANNUAL 14 (MS. MARVEL) 
IRON MAN 125
UNCANNY X-MEN 129 (1ST PART)
CLASSIC X-MEN 36, 20, 34 (2ND)
UNCANNY X-MEN 129 (2ND PART)
CLASSIC X-MEN 35 (2ND)
UNCANNY X-MEN 130
UNCANNY X-MEN 131 
UNCANNY X-MEN 132
UNCANNY X-MEN 133
UNCANNY X-MEN 134
UNCANNY X-MEN 135
CODE OF HONOR 2 (X-men apps, occur between pages of uxm 135)
UNCANNY X-MEN 136
UNCANNY X-MEN 137
Fantastic Four Annual 18 (Prologue Only, occurs during UXM 137)
CLASSIC X-MEN 43 (2ND)

Note: the next Four books are not in chronology, but this is the divergence point.
PHOENIX :The Untold Story 1
WHAT IF? (1ST SERIES) 27: Phoenix had not died?
WHAT IF? (2nd series) 32: Phoenix had not Died?
WHAT IF? (2nd Series) 33: Phoenix Rose Again?

UNCANNY X-MEN 138
Bizarre Adventures 27 (Phoenix Story, framing sequence only, Sara Grey Bailey)
Marvel Treasury Edition 27 (Angel Story)
CLASSIC X-MEN 40 (2ND)
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 4
FLASHBACK IN FF 286 (BEAST)
Avengers 186
AVENGERS 187
AVENGERS 188
FANTASTIC FOUR 240 (Birth of Luna)
Avengers Annual. 9
Avengers 189-191
MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 66 (SCARLET WITCH)
Marvel Super-Heroes (3rd series) 10 (Ms. Marvel 24)

Marvel Super Heroes (3rd series) 11 (MS. Marvel 25) (First part only)
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST 66 
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST 78
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST 84

AVENGERS 192-196
FLASHBACK IN AVENGERS 200 (MS. MARVEL)
AVENGERS 197
CAPTAIN AMERICA 250
AVENGERS 198-200
FLASHBACK IN AVG ANNUAL 10(MS. MARVEL)
AVENGERS 201-205
MARVEL TREASURY EDITION 27 (ANGEL STORY)
UNCANNY X-MEN 139, 140
MARVEL 2 IN 1 68
Marvel 2 in 1 69 
UNCANNY X-MEN 141, 142 (DAYS OF FUTURE PAST)

CLASSIC X-MEN 37, 38 (2ND)
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 203
Dazzler 1
AVENGERS 206
DAZZLER 2
Marvel team up 84 (SILVER SAMURAI)
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 207 (MESMERO)
DAREDEVIL 164 
HULK ANNUAL 11 
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST 90
MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 75 
Avengers 207-208
UNCANNY X-MEN 143-144
Marvel Team-Up 100
Rom 17,18
SPIDERWOMAN 37, 38 (1st + 2nd Siryn)
Marvel TWO in ONE 76 (ICEMAN)
Uncanny X-Men 145-146
Uncanny X-Men 147
Bizarre Adventures 27 (Iceman Story)
Reprinted in:
X-MEN RARITIES (Iceman story from Bizarre Adventures 27, in color)
FANTASTIC FOUR 230 (BEAST)
CAPTAIN AMERICA 259
Dazzler 3-5
UNCANNY X-MEN 148
Best of Marvel Comics 1 (Wolverine Story)
AVENGERS 209
UNCANNY X-MEN 149
Hulk 263
Marvel Super-Heroes Vol.3 #11 (Part Three) (I put the issue here, as its the most important part of story)
Avengers Annual 10
MARVEL 2-IN-1 78
CAPTAIN AMERICA 261
AVENGERS 210
DAZZLER 6-7
DEFENDERS 98
AVENGERS 211
MARVEL TEAM-UP 108-109
ROM 31, 32
Uncanny X-Men 150
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 5
MARVEL FANFARE 1-4
MICRONAUTS 37
UNCANNY X-MEN 151-152
MAN-THING (Second series) 11 (AMANDA + MARGALI)
DOCTOR STRANGE (SECOND SERIES) 57-58 (AMANDA + MARGALI)
UNCANNY X-MEN 153
MARVEL TEAM-UP 117,118
Marvel Graphic Novel 1: The Death of Captain Mavel
MARVEL FANFARE 4 (Page 20)
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 229 (JUGGERNAUT)
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 230 (JUGGERNAUT)
AVENGERS 214
UNCANNY X-MEN 154-155
DEFENDERS 103-109
DAZZLER 8-15
AVENGERS ANNUAL. 11
DAZZLER 16
AVENGERS 221 (DAZZLER) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 156
UNCANNY X-MEN 157
UNCANNY X-MEN 158
UNCANNY X-MEN 159
UNCANNY X-MEN 160
MAGIK 1-4
Ka-Zar 29 (Belasco)
UNCANNY X-MEN 161
DAZZLER 17-21

DEFENDERS 112-116
MARVEL TEAM-UP 124
AVENGERS 231
DEFENDERS 120,121
DAZZLER 22
DAZZLER 23
DAZZLER 24
DAZZLER 25
DAZZLER 26
DAZZLER 27
DAZZLER 28
UNCANNY X-MEN 162-166
Hulk 277 ?
NEW MUTANTS GRAPHIC NOVEL
NEW MUTANTS 1-3
FANTASTIC FOUR 249, 250
UNCANNY X-MEN 167
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 6
NEW MUTANTS 4
MARVEL TEAM-UP ANNUAL 6

HULK ANNUAL 8
MACHINE MAN 18
ALPHA FLIGHT 1
MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 83
MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 84
HULK 272 ?
HULK 278-279 ?
CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS 1-3 ?
MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE ANNUAL 7
MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 96 
ALPHA FLIGHT 2
FANTASTIC FOUR 260 (Alpha Flight)
ALPHA FLIGHT 3
ALPHA FLIGHT 4
SPECIAL EDITION X-Men 1 (2ND STORY)
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 22 (Wolfsbane, Psyche, Moira story)
FIRESTAR 1
VISION AND THE SCARLET WITCH (1ST SERIES) #1-4
Avengers 234 (Flashback)
UNCANNY X-MEN 168 (ALL BUT LAST PAGE)
WOLVERINE LS #1 (PAGES 1-6)
X-MEN GRAPHIC NOVEL 
X-MEN/ALPHA FLIGHT II #1
X-MEN/ALPHA FLIGHT II #2
UNCANNY X-MEN #168 (LAST PAGE)
WOLVERINE LS 1 (PAGES 7-22)
WOLVERINE LS 2
WOLVERINE LS 3
WOLVERINE LS 4
UNCANNY X-MEN 169
UNCANNY X-MEN 170


UNCANNY X-MEN 171
NEW MUTANTS 5-8
DEFENDERS 122-125
UNCANNY X-MEN 172-174

Uncanny x-men 175
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 7 (X-Men, after main part of UXM 175,but Before the wedding in UXM 175)
MARVEL FANFARE 24 (2ND) (Beast, Wolverine, occurs after the main portion of UXM 175, but before the wedding in UXM 175) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 176
DD 196-200
MARVEL TEAM-UP 135
MOON KNIGHT 35

DEFENDERS 126-129
DEFNDERS 130
AVENGERS 239 (Beast, in between pages of Defenders 130)
DEFENDERS 131
Code of Honor 3 (Beast App only, not whole issue)
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST 110 (BEAST)
DEFENDERS 132
DEFENDERS 133
AVENGERS ANNUAL 13 (Beast)
DAZZLER 29-34
NEW MUTANTS 9-12
MICRONAUTS 45 (ARCADE)
MARVEL FANFARE 7 (UNUS,BLOB)
UNCANNY X-MEN 177
FANTASTIC FOUR 261
FANTASTIC FOUR 262
UNCANNY X-MEN 178
UNCANNY X-MEN 179
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN 91 (BLOB APP., UNUS DIES)
NEW MUTANTS 13
CRYSTAR 6
X-MEN MICRONAUTS 1-4
NEW MUTANTS 14
UNCANNY X-MEN 180
SECRET WARS 1-12
NEW MUTANTS 15, 16
UNCANNY X-MEN 181
UNCANNY X-MEN 182
CODE OF HONOR 3 (Rogue App.) 
NEW MUTANTS 17
UNCANNY X-MEN 183
DAZZLER GRAPHIC NOVEL
BEAUTY AND THE BEAST 1-4
DAZZLER 35-37
MCP 32 (Sunfire Story)
FIRESTAR 2
NEW MUTANTS 18-20
ALPHA FLIGHT 5-9
ROM 56-58
ALPHA FLIGHT 10-12
KITTY PRYDE AND WOLVERINE 1-3
UNCANNY X-MEN 184
NEW MUTANTS 21, ANNUAL 1
MARVEL TEAM-UP 149 (CANNONBALL)
UNCANNY X-MEN 185
MARVEL FANFARE 40 (2ND)
UNCANNY X-MEN 186-188
THOR 352
KITTY PRYDE AND WOLVERINE 4-6
MARVEL TEAM-UP 150
NEW MUTANTS 22-25
MARVEL SUPER-HEROES VOLUME 3 NUMBER 2 (ROGUE STORY)
ROM ANNUAL 3
UNCANNY X-MEN 189-191
UNCANNY X-MEN 192
MARVEL TEAM UP ANNUAL 7
ALPHA FLIGHT 13
CRYSTAR 11
ALPHA FLIGHT 14
ALPHA FLIGHT 15
ALPHA FLIGHT 16-17 (Wolverine)
ALPHA FLIGHT 18-21
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 8
DEFENDERS 134-139
ROM 61-66
SUB-MARINER VOL.2 #3 (DEFENDERS)

ROM ANNUAL 4 (IMPERIAL GUARD)
CAPTAIN AMERICA 305-307 (CAPTAIN BRITAIN)
DAZZLER 38
WOLVERINE & NICK FURY: THE SCORPIO CONNECTION
X-MEN/ALPHA FLIGHT 1, 2
UNCANNY X-MEN 193
NEW MUTANTS 26
FIRESTAR 3, 4
NEW MUTANTS 27, 28
UNCANNY X-MEN 194
NIGHTCRAWLER 1-4
POWER PACK 11, 12
UNCANNY X-MEN 195
NEW MUTANTS 29
SECRET WARS II # 1
NEW MUTANTS 30, 31
AVENGERS 256 (Ka-Zar)
AVENGERS 257 (Ka-Zar)
UNCANNY X-MEN 196
SECRET WARS II #2
SECRET WARS II #3
DEADPOOL TEAM UP
UNCANNY X-MEN 197
DAZZLER 39
ALPHA FLIGHT 22-27
SECRET WARS II #4
DAZZLER 40
UNCANNY X-MEN 198
NEW MUTANTS 32-34
SECRET WARS II # 5
NEW MUTANTS SPEC ED 1
UNCANNY X-MEN 199
LONGSHOT 1-6
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 9
UNCANNY X-MEN 200
NEW MUTANTS 35
UNCANNY X-MEN 201
MARVEL FANFARE 33

VISION & Scarlet WItch II #1 
WEST COAST AVENGERS 2 
VISION & Scarlet WItch II #2 
WEST COAST AVENGERS 3 
VISION & Scarlet WItch II #3
VISION & Scarlet WItch II #4
VISION & Scarlet WItch II #5


VISION + SCARLET WITCH II #6 (Magneto)

POWER PACK 19
ALPHA FLIGHT 28
HULK 313
ALPHA FLIGHT 29-32
ALPHA FLIGHT 33, 34 (X-MEN)
HEROES FOR HOPE 1
DAZZLER 41
SECRET WARS II #6 (not sure if any x-char are in this)
SECRET WARS II #7
NEW MUTANTS 36
UNCANNY X-MEN 202

DEFENDERS 140-141
DEFENDERS 148
ICEMAN 1-4
DEFENDERS 142-147, 149-151 (#148 is a filler issue, that doesnt take place in chronology with these issues)
AVENGERS 263
FANTASTIC FOUR 286
DEFENDERS 152
X-FACTOR 1
DAZZLER 42

SECRET W II #8
POWER PACK 20
NEW MUTANTS 37
UNCANNY X-MEN 203


SECRET WARS II #9
VISION & Scarlet witch II #7 (Toad)
VISION & SCARLET WITCH II # 8
VISION & SCARLET WITCH II # 9
VISION & SCARLET WITCH II # 10


CAPTAIN AMERICA ANNUAL 8
NEW MUTANTS 38-40
ALPHA FLIGHT 35-36


PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN 116
VISION & SCARLET WITCH II #11
VISION & SCARLET WITCH II #12 (Magneto)

NEW MUTANTS 41
NEW MUTANTS 42
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL 2 (NEW MUTANTS)
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN 119

NEW MUTANTS 43
NEW MUTANTS 44


X-MEN ARCHIVES FEATURING CAPTAIN BRITAIN 1-7
CAPTAIN BRITAIN TRADE PAPERBACK
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 2
UNCANNY X-MEN 204, 205
UNCANNY X-MEN 206
X-FACTOR 2
X-FACTOR 3
ETERNALS VOL. 2 #8 (ANGEL) 
ALPHA FLIGHT 37-39
AVENGERS 272 
ALPHA FLIGHT 40
MARVEL FANFARE 28
ALPHA FLIGHT ANNUAL 1
ALPHA FLIGHT 41-42

X-FACTOR 4
X-FACTOR 5
X-FACTOR 6
X-FACTOR 7
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 1
THOR 365 (Piper)
IRON MAN ANNUAL 8
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 282
MARVEL FANFARE 32 (BEAST AND ANGEL IN CAP AMERICA STORY)
UNCANNY X-MEN 207, 208
X-FACTOR 8
UNCANNY X-MEN 209, 210
X-FACTOR 9
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 10
NEW MUTANTS 45
UNCANNY X-MEN 211
X-FACTOR 10
THOR 373
POWER PACK 27
NEW MUTANTS 46
UNCANNY X-MEN 212
THOR 374
X-FACTOR 11
UNCANNY X-MEN 213, 214
DAREDEVIL 238
X-FACTOR 12

AVENGERS ANNUAL 15 (FREEDOM FORCE, VAL COOPER)
WEST COAST AVENGERS ANNUAL 1 (FREEDOM FORCE, BEAST)
IRON MAN 214 (VAL COOPER) 

MEPHISTO VS. 1
MEPHISTO VS. 2
MARVEL FANFARE 40 (ANGEL STORY) 
MEPHISTO VS. 3
MEPHISTO VS. 4
NEW MUTANTS 47
UNCANNY X-MEN 215-216
UNCANNY X-MEN 217-218
MARVEL FANFARE 38 (2ND)
STRANGE TALES VOLUME 3 NUMBER 9
ALPHA FLIGHT 43 (SEBASTIAN SHAW)
ALPHA FLIGHT 44-51
ALPHA FLIGHT Annual 2
NEW MUTANTS 48
NEW MUTANTS 49
NEW MUTANTS 50
NEW MUTANTS 51
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 3
Marvel SUP HR Spring SPEC 1 (MAGIK + CANNONBALL)
NEW MUTANTS 52
FALLEN ANGELS 1
FALLEN ANGELS 2
NEW MUTANTS 53
NEW MUTANTS 54
UNCANNY X-MEN 219
SPIDER-MAN VS. WOLVERINE 1
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 29
FANTASTIC FOUR VS X-MEN 1-4
X-MEN VS AVENGERS 1-4
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 4 (SECOND STORY)
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 11
X-FACTOR 13
X-FACTOR 14
POWER PACK 36 (MASTER MOLD)
X-FACTOR 15
THOR 377-378
THOR 379 
X-FACTOR 16
X-FACTOR 17
FALLEN Angels 3-4
Fallen Angels 5-8
POWER PACK 33
X-FACTOR 18-20
HULK 336-337

FANTASTIC FOUR 304
FANTASIC FOUR 305
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 20
FANTASTIC FOUR 306
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 2
WEST COAST AVENGERS 33
WEST COAST AVENGERS 34
WEST COAST AVENGERS 35
WEST COAST AVENGERS 36

NEW MUTANTS 55
NEW MUTANTS 56
NEW MUTANTS 57

UNCANNY X-MEN 220
DAREDEVIL 248-249
ALPHA FLIGHT 52-53 (wolverine)

UNCANNY X-MEN 221
UNCANNY X-MEN 222
CAPTAIN AMERICA 333 (FREEDOM FORCE, VAL)
CAPTAIN AMERICA 334 (FREEDOM FORCE, VAL)
UNCANNY X-MEN 223
CAPTAIN AMERICA 335 (VAL COOPER)
UNCANNY X-MEN 224
HULK 340
NEW MUTANTS 58
UNCANNY X-MEN 225
UCNANNY X-MEN 226
UNCANNY X-MEN 227
NEW MUTANTS 59
NEW MUTANTS 60
NEW MUTANTS 61


NEW MUTANTS 62 (NM in opening pages only, rest of story is about Empath & Magm)
SPELLBOUND 4
NEW MUTANTS 63 (Illyana, framing narration only)
NEW MUTANTS 64
NEW MUTANTS 65
NEW MUTANTS 66

X-FACTOR 21
X-FACTOR 22
X-FACTOR 23

X-FACTOR 24
X-FACTOR 25
POWER PACK 35
CAPTAIN AMERICA 339
X-FACTOR 26
FANTASTIC FOUR 312

X-FACTOR 27, 28
ST CD DS 18
CLOAK + DAGGER VOLUME 3 # 1 
CLOAK + DAGGER VOLUME 3 # 2 
UNCANNY X-MEN 228, 229
MARVEL FANFARE 55 (NEW MUTANTS)
UNCANNY X-MEN 230 (NEW MUTANTS)
EXCALIBUR SPCECIAL EDITION
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 3 (SECOND STORY)
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 3
EXCALIBUR 1-3
POWER PACK 40
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 4
UNCANNY X-MEN 231
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 1-10 (WOLVERINE: SAVE THE TIGER)

UNCANNY X-MEN 232
UNCANNY X-MEN 233

X-FACTOR 29
X-FACTOR 30
X-FACTOR 31

CAPTAIN AMERICA 344 (Val cooper)
CAPTAIN AMERICA 346 (FREEDOM FORCE, Val)

X-FACTOR 32
X-FACTOR 33
FANTASTIC FOUR 342 (FLASHBACK WITH RUSTY)
DAREDEVIL 269 (BLOB & PYRO)
UNCANNY X-MEN 234
WOLVERINE 1-3
WOLVERINE: DOOMBRINGER
MARVEL AGE ANNUAL 4
WOLVERINE 4-8
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 12
ALPHA FLIGHT 54-60
ALPHA FLIGHT 61 (x-men cameo)
FANTASTIC FOUR 314 (BELASCO)

UNCANNY X-MEN 235-237
X-TERMINATORS 1-2
UNCANNY X-MEN 238
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 16 (LONGSHOT/X-MEN STORY)
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 10-17 (COLOSSUS)
WOLVERINE 9
WOLVERINE10
NEW MUTANTS 67-70

CAPTAIN AMERICA 347 (VAL)
CAPTAIN AMERICA 348 (VAL)
AVENGERS 298
HULK 350 (BEAST)
AVENGERS ANNUAL 17 (BEAST)
CAPTAIN AMERICA 349 (BEAST BTS)
AVENGERS 299
AVENGERS 300

UNCANNY X-MEN 239
X-FACTOR 34
X-FACTOR 35
UNCANNY X-MEN 240
UNCANNY X-MEN 241
SSPMAN 147
X-FACTOR 36
EXCALIBUR 4, 5
X-TERMINATORS 3
NEW MUTANTS 71
POWER PACK 42
X-TERMINATORS 4
NEW MUTANTS 72
NEW MUTANTS 73
CLOAK AND DAGGER VOL. 3 #4
POWER PACK 44
X-FACTOR 37
UNCANNY X-MEN 242
FANTASTIC FOUR 324
EXCALIBUR 6, 7
X-FACTOR 38
UNCANNY X-MEN 243
X-FACTOR 39
DAMAGE CONTROL L.S. #4
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 15 (MARVEL GIRL STORY) 

NEW MUTANTS 74
EXCALIBUR 8
NEW MUTANTS 75
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 4 (THIRD STORY)(INFERNO AFTERMATH)

X-FACTOR 40
NEW MUTANTS 76

CAPTAIN AMERICA 350 (VAL)
CAPTAIN AMERICA 351 (VAL)
MCP 41 (FREEDOM FORCE, SEN. KELLY STORY) 

EXCALIBUR 9-10
EXCALIBUR 11 Pages 1-14
MOJO MAYHEM
EXCALIBUR 11 Pages 15-18
EXCALIBUR 20
EXCALIBUR 11 Pages 19-22
CAPTAIN AMERICA 352-354 (VAL)
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 17-24 (CYCLOPS, BANSHEE, MOIRA)
CAPTAIN AMERICA 355 (VAL)
AVENGERS 305 (BEAST) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS # 39-44 (BEAST IN WONDER MAN STORY) 
FLASHBACK STORY IN X-FACTOR 47
UNCANNY X-MEN 244
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 13 (SECOND STORY)
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL 6-7
WOLVERINE 11-16
UNCANNY X-MEN 245
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 13


MARVEL SUPER-HEROES VOL.3 #6-8 (SENTINELS STORY)
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 48 (STORM STORY)
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 24-31 (HAVOK/ WOLVERINE STORY)
HAVOK & WOLVERINE: MELTDOWN 1-4
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 38-47 (WOLVERINE SHADOW STORY)
ALPHA FLIGHT 62-77
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 51-53 (wolverine/ alpha flight)
ALPHA FLIGHT 78-86
WOLVERINE: THE JUNGLE ADVENTURE

WOLVERINE 17
WOLVERINE 18
UNCANNY X-MEN 246

WOLVERINE 19 (EXCEPT LAST 2 PAGES WITH MAGNETO, WHICH HAPPEN LATER)
Wolverine 20
UNCANNY X-MEN 247
UNCANNY X-MEN 248
Flashback in UNCANNY X-MEN 267
Flashback in UNCANNY X-MEN 249
WOLVERINE 21
UNCANNY X-MEN 249
UNCANNY X-MEN 250
WOLVERINE 22-23
CAPTAIN AMERICA 363 (WOLVERINE app., between panels of WOLV #23)

X-FACTOR 41
X-FACTOR 42 

NEW MUTANTS 77
NEW MUTANTS 78
X-FACTOR 43
X-FACTOR 44
X-FACTOR 45
X-FACTOR 46
X-FACTOR 47 (1ST PAGE ONLY, REST IS FB STORY)
X-FACTOR 48
X-FACTOR 49
X-FACTOR 50
NEW MUTANTS 79
NEW MUTANTS 80
NEW MUTANTS 81
NEW MUTANTS 82

Flashback only in AVENGERS ANNUAL 19 (STORY 3) (MAGNETO) (comic to be put in proper place) ???


UNCANNY X-MEN 251
UNCANNY X-MEN 252
UNCANNY X-MEN 253 (magneto)

UNCANNY X-MEN 254 (VAL)
UNCANNY X-MEN 255 (FREEDOM FORCE)

UNCANNY X-MEN 256
NEW MUTANTS 83
NEW MUTANTS 84
NEW MUTANTS 85
NEW MUTANTS 86 (FREEDOM FORCE)

AVENGERS WEST COAST 52
AVENGERS ANNUAL 18 (NO X-CHARACTERS)


NEW MUTANTS 87
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 5 (ATLANTIS ATTACKS)
X-FACTOR 51
NEW MUTANTS 88
NEW MUTANTS 89
QUASAR 8 (NEW MUTANTS)


WOLVERINE 19 (LAST 2 PAGES WITH MAGNETO ONLY)
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER MAN 158 (MAGNETO)
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 327 (MAGNETO)
CAPTAIN AMERICA 366 (MAGNETO)
THOR 411 (Juggernaut)
THOR 412 (Juggernaut)

X-FACTOR ANNUAL 4
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL 5 (NO X-CHARACTERS)
AVENGERS WEST COAST ANNUAL 4
THOR ANNUAL 14
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 22

AVENGERS WEST COAST 53 (MAGNETO)

AVENGERS 312 (FREEDOM FORCE)


UNCANNY X-MEN 257
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 60 (MAGNETO)
AVENGERS WEST COAST 54 (MAGNETO)
UNCANNY X-MEN 258
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 61 (MAGNETO) 
AVENGERS 313 pP. 1-13
AVENGERS WEST COAST 55 (MAGNETO) pgs. 1-2
AVENGERS 313 PP. 14-20
CAPTAIN AMERICA 367 (MAGNETO)
AVENGERS 313 PP. 21-22
AVENGERS WEST COAST 55 PP. 3-17
AVENGERS ANN. 19/3 FB ONLY P. 10 PANELS 2-6
AVENGERS WEST COAST 55 PP. 18-22


PUNISHER 29 (FREEDOM FORCE)

CAPTAIN AMERICA 368
CAPTAIN AMERICA 369 (SELENE)
CAPTAIN AMERICA 370 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 56 (MAGNETO)
AVENGERS WEST COAST 57 (MAGNETO)
AVENGERS WEST COAST 60 (MAGNETO)
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 328 (SEBASTIAN SHAW) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 329 (SEBASTIAN SHAW)
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 78 (MAGNETO, SELENE, WHITE QUEEN)


HULK 369 (FREEDOM FORCE)
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 82-87 (FIRESTAR/FREEDOM FORCE/ WHITE QUEEN STORY)


ALPHA FLIGHT 87
ALPHA FLIGHT 88 (VAL)
ALPHA FLIGHT 89
ALPHA FLIGHT 90
Avengers 320-324 (alpha flight)
Alpha Flight 91
ALPHA FLIGHT 92


EXCALIBUR 12-19, 21-25
QUASAR 11
EXCALIBUR 27


UNCANNY X-MEN 259
UNCANNY X-MEN 260
X-FACTOR 52-54
UNCANNY X-MEN 261
PUNISHER 33-34 (REAVERS)

Punisher: No Escape (Val)
Nomad L.S. 1-4 (Val)

X-FACTOR 55
UNCANNY X-MEN 262 (Val)
UNCANNY X-MEN 263 (Val)
X-FACTOR 56 (PAGES 1-10)
UNCANNY X-MEN 264 (Val)
X-FACTOR 56 (PAGES 11-22)
X-FACTOR 57-58
GHOST RIDER (90S SERIES) 9 (X-FACTOR)
NEW MUTANTS 90-92
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 73-74 (COLOSSUS)
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 75 (ICEMAN, BEAST BTS)


EXCALIBUR 28-34
X-MEN SPOTLIGHT ON...THE STARJAMMERS 1, 2 


UNCANNY X-MEN 265
UNCANNY X-MEN 266 (Val)
UNCANNY X-MEN 269 (OCCURS BETWEEN 266 + 267) (Val)
UNCANNY X-MEN 267

FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 23
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 6
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 5
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 14


MCP 31-38 (EXCALIBUR STORY) (note: the big dragon is in 37 and 38, so it happens after the cross time caper, Kitty is in it so it happens after girls's school from heck)
EXCALIBUR 26 (This has Moira and Kitty and Widget in it, so it must happen in this period)???
THOR 427-430
MCP 75 (EXCALIBUR STORY)
QUASAR 23 (RACHEL)
SHE HULK 26

X-MEN: TRUE FRIENDS 1-3
EXCALIBUR 35
EXCALIBUR 36
UNCANNY X-MEN 268
Marvel comics presents 79 (Sunspot Story)
NEW MUTANTS SUMMER SPECIAL 1
NEW MUTANTS 93
NEW MUTANTS 94
WOLVERINE RAHNE OF TERRA
AVENGERS WEST COAST 71 (SUNFIRE)
AVENGERS WEST COAST 74 (SUNFIRE)
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 48-50
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 54-61
WOLVERINE 24-30
WOLVERINE 31-33
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 62-63
WOLVERINE 34
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 74 (ICEMAN STORY)
X-FACTOR 59
X-FACTOR SPECIAL: PRISONER OF LOVE
MARVEL FANFARE 50 (FRAMING SEQUENCE)
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 71 (WARLOCK STORY)

X-TINCTION AGENDA:
UNCANNY X-MEN 270; NEW MUTANTS 95; X-FACTOR 60; UNCANNY X-MEN 271;NEW MUTANTS 96; X-FACTOR 61; UNCANNY X-MEN 272, NEW MUTANTS 97; X-FACTOR 62

WOLVERINE: BLOODLUST
MARVEL FANFARE 54-55 (WOLVERINE STORY)
Alpha flight 93-94
FANTASTIC FOUR 347-349
EXCALIBUR 37-41
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 64-71
WOLVERINE 35-37
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 15 (STORY 4) (WOLVERINE STORY)

X-FACTOR 63-64

UNCANNY X-MEN 273
UNCANNY X-MEN 274
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 85-92 (BEAST STORY)
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 7 STORY 3 (JEAN/SCOTT/X-FACTOR JR.)

UNCANNY X-MEN 275
UNCANNY X-MEN 276
UNCANNY X-MEN 277

DEADPOOL MINUS ONE

NEW MUTANTS 98
NEW MUTANTS 99
NEW MUTANTS100
EXCALIBUR GRAPHIC NOVEL: WEIRD WAR III
NEW WARRIORS 5 (WHITE QUEEN)
NEW WARRIORS 8 (WHITE QUEEN)
NEW WARRIORS 9 (WHITE QUEEN)
NEW WARRIORS 10 (WHITE QUEEN)

Kings of Pain:
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 7
NEW WARRIORS ANNUAL 1
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 15
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 6

X-FACTOR 65-68


ALPHA FLIGHT 95-101
CAPTAIN AMERICA 387-392
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 24 (GATEWAY)

INFINITY GAUNTLET 2
INFINITY GAUNTLET 3
SILVER SURFER 52 
Silver surfer 54
INFINITY GAUNTLET 4

UNCANNY X-MEN 278, 279; X-FACTOR 69; UNCANNY X-MEN 280; X-FACTOR 70
SHIELD 25-29
AVENGERS 332-333 (WOLVERINE)
SHE-HULK 29
SHE-HULK 30
SHE-HULK 34
SHE-HULK 35

SPM 8-12
Namor 21-25
Wolverine 44 (Flashback)
WOLVERINE 38-44



WOLVERINE 45-47
WOLVERINE: BLOODY CHOICES
DAMAGE CONTROL VOL.3 #4
AVENGERS 334-339 (BEAST in 335-339)

DEATHLOK 2-5
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 89 (SELENE STORY)

X-FACTOR 71-73
X-MEN 1 (A-E)
X-MEN 2, 3

X-FORCE 1-3
SPM 16
X-FORCE 4
Marvel Comics Presents 90-97 (Cable/Ghost Rider Story only)
X-FORCE 5
SHIELD 33-35

NOMAD VOL.2 #2 (Val Cooper)
Nomad Vol.2 #4 (Deadpool, Tolliver)
SPIDER-MAN 15
WONDER MAN 5-6 (BEAST)

Operation Galactic Storm:
CAP AMERICA 398,AVENGERS WEST COAST 80,QUASAR 32
WONDER MAN 7, AVENGERS 345,IRON MAN 278,THOR 445
CAP AMERICA 399,AVENGERS WEST COAST 81,QUASAR 33
WONDER MAN 8,AVENGERS 346,IRON MAN 279THOR 446
CAP AMERICA 400,AVENGERS WEST COAST 82,QUASAR 34
WONDER MAN 9,AVENGERS 347



X-FACTOR 74
X-FACTOR 75
HULK 390-391; X-FACTOR 76; HULK 392

ALPHA FLIGHT 102-106
ALPHA FLIGHT 107 (X-FACTOR)


MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 85-92 (WOLVERINE STORY)
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 89 (X-MEN/MOJO)
QUASAR 28
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 93-98 (WOLVERINE STORY)
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 99
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 100
HEARTS OF DARKNESS (WOLVERINE)
WOLVERINE AND THE PUNISHER 1-3
WOLVERINE 54 (SHATTERSTAR) (HAS TO BE BEFORE 48-50 DUE TO BROWN COSTUME)
WOLVERINE 48-50

EXCALIBUR: THE POSSESSION
EXCALIBUR: AIR APPARENT 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 174 (TECHNET)
EXCALIBUR 42-52
EXCALIBUR 53
SPIDER-MAN 25 (CAPTAIN BRITAIN AND MEGGAN)
EXCALIBUR 54

X-MEN 4-7
UNCANNY X-MEN 281-286
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 101-108 (NIGHTCRAWLER/WOLVERINE)
WOLVERINE 51-53
WOLVERINE 55-57
WOLVERINE 60-64
WOLVERINE 65
WOLVERINE 58-59

X-MEN ANNUAL 1
UNCANNY X-MEN 287-288

X-MEN 8
GHOST RIDER 26
X-MEN 9
GHOST RIDER 27

GHOST RIDER 29 (Wolverine)
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 109-116

X-FACTOR 77
X-FACTOR 78
CAPTAIN AMERICA 402-407

DOCTOR STRANGE (3rd SERIES) #41 (WOLVERINE)

UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 16 STORY 3
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 16 STORY 1
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 16 STORY 2
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 7 STORY 1, 2, 3

WOLVERINE: EVILUTION (BOOM-BOOM)
New warriors 19 (Gideon)
NIGHT THRASHER 3 (GIDEON)
X-FORCE 6-11
X-FORCE ANNUAL 1 STORY 3
X-FORCE ANNUAL 1 STORY 2 (TAKI, ARTIE, LEECH ONLY)

X-FORCE 12-15
UNCANNY X-MEN 289, 290
X-MEN 10-11

DARKHAWK 19,20 (BROTHERHOOD OF EVIL MUTANTS) 


ALPHA FLIGHT 108
NICK FURY, AGENT OF SHIELD 32 (wild child)
ALPHA FLIGHT 109

INFINITY WAR 1
FANTASTIC FOUR 367
INFINITY WAR 2
MOON KNIGHT 41
MOON KNIGHT 43
WONDER MAN 13
QUASAR 38
Warlock and the Infinity Watch 8
INFINITY WAR 3
Alpha flight 110
NEW WARRIORS 27
FANTASTIC FOUR 368
INFINITY WAR 4
QUASAR 39 
SLEEPWALKER 17 (BROTHERHOOD OF EVIL MUTANTS, XAVIER BTS)
SLEEPWALKER 18
FANTASTIC FOUR 369
ALPHA FLIGHT 111
WONDER MAN 14
MOON KNIGHT 44
INFINITY WAR 5
DOCOTR STRANGE 46
QUASAR 40
WONDER MAN 15
INFINITY WAR 6
FANTASTIC FOUR 370
ALPHA FLIGHT 112

ALPHA FLIGHT 113-120

AVENGERS WEST COAST 84 (Val Flashbacks)

AVENGERS WEST COAST 87 (WOLVERINE)
AVENGERS WEST COAST 88 (WOLVERINE)

MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 117-122

NEW WARRIORS 29 (VAL COOPER)
NEW WARRIORS 30 (VAL COOPER)
AVENGERS 350
AVENGERS 351
UNCANNY X-MEN 291-293
X-MEN 12-13
EXCALIBUR VS. THE X-MEN SPECIAL
EXCALIBUR 55-56
EXCALIBUR 57-58
EXCALIBUR 59-60
CABLE LIMITED SERIES 1, 2
X-FACTOR 79, 80, 81
X-FACTOR 82, 83

X-CUTIONERS SONG:
UNCANNY X-MEN 294; X-FACTOR 84; X-MEN 14; X-FORCE 16
UNCANNY X-MEN 295; X-FACTOR 85; X-MEN 15; X-FORCE 17
UNCANNY X-MEN 296; X-FACTOR 86; X-MEN 16; X-FORCE 18

UNCANNY X-MEN 297
STRYFES STRIKE FILE 1
AVENGERS 357 (CORTEZ)
SECRET DEFENDERS 1-3
FANTASTIC FOUR 374 (WOLVERINE)
MARVEL COMICS PRESNTS 122-130 (WOLVERINE STORY)
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER MAN 197
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER MAN 198
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER MAN 199
WOLVERINE 66-68
X-MEN 17-19
New Warriors 31
X-FORCE 19
X-FACTOR 87-91
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 8
SILVER SURFER ANNUAL 6 (No X-Characters)
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 131 (WOLVERINE, TYGER TYGER)
WOLVERINE: INNER FURY
TERROR INC. 9
TERROR INC. 10
ALPHA FLIGHT 121 (X-MEN)
SECRET DEFENDERS 11 (NORTHSTAR)
SCARLET WITCH 1-4
SECRET DEFENDERS 18, 19 (ARCHANGEL, ICEMAN, PROF. X)
SPIDER-WOMAN VOL.2 #2 (IMPORTANT VALERIE COOPER FB)
NEW WARRIORS 32-34 (ARCHANGEL)


INFINITY CRUSADE 1
ALPHA FLIGHT 122
INFINITY CRUSADE 2
ALPHA FLIGHT 123
INFINITY CRUSADE 3
ALPHA FLIGHT 124
INFINITY CRUSADE 4
INFINITY CRUSADE 5
ALPHA FLIGHT 125
ALPAH FLIGHT 126
ALPHA FLIGHT 127
INFINITY CRUSADE 6
ALPHA FLIGHT 128-130
NORTHSTAR 1-4

HULK 415 (Starjammers)
HULK 416 (Starjammers)

UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 17 (2ND STORY)
UNCANNY X-MEN 298-300
EXCALIBUR 61-65
EXCALIBUR 66 PAGES 1-11
EXCALIBUR ANNUAL 1
EXCALIBUR 66 PAGES 12-22
EXCALIBUR 67
EXCALIBUR 68-70
X-MEN UNLIMITED 1
X-MEN 20-22
WOLVERINE 69-71
X-MEN 23
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 17 (1st story)
UNCANNY X-MEN 301-303
WOLVERINE 72-74
PUNISHER WAR ZONE 19 (WOLVERINE)
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 132-136 (WOLVERINE, CYBER)
WOLVERINE: KILLING
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 137-142 (WOLVERINE)
WOLVERINE & NICK FURY: SCORPIO RISING

X-FACTOR 92
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD 46
X-FORCE 20-24
CABLE 1-4
DEADPOOL: THE CIRCLE CHASE 1-4
Thunderstrike 2 (Juggernaut)
X-FORCE 25
X-MEN 24
X-FACTOR 93
X-MEN UNLIMITED 2 (MAGNETO)
UNCANNY X-MEN 304
SPIDER-MAN AND X-FACTOR: SHADOWGAMES 1-3
X-FACTOR 94
UNCANNY X-MEN 305-306
SABRETOOTH LIMITED SERIES 1-4
GAMBIT LIMITED SERIES 1-4
X-MEN 25 
WOLVERINE 75
X-MEN ANNUAL 2
X-FORCE 26, ANNUAL. 2
EXCALIBUR 71

Avengers 367 (Cortez, acolytes)

BLOODTIES:
AVENGERS 368
X-MEN 26
AVENGERS WEST 101
UNCANNY X-MEN 307
AVENGERS 369

X-FORCE 27
X-Force 28
CABLE 5
X-FORCE 29-30
X-FACTOR 95-100
CABLE 6-8
X-FORCE 31
X-Men UNLIMITED 3
UNCANNY X-MEN 308
X-MEN 27,28
UNCANNY X-MEN 309
Excalibur 72-74
New Warriors 44
X-MEN 29

CHILDSPLAY:
X-FORCE 32 
New Warriors 45
X-FORCE 33
New Warriors 46
X-FORCE 34

Cable 9-11
UNCANNY X-MEN 310
X-Men: The Wedding Album (2nd part shows Wedding reception + overlaps with the wedding)
What IF? (2nd series) 60 (parts overlap with the wedding)
X-Men 30
Excalibur 75
X-Men: Phoenix 1-3 (Rachel)
ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS AND PHOENIX 1-4
X-Men Unlimited 4
X-FACTOR 101
X-FACTOR 102 (Page 1 through Page 22 Panel 1)
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 9
X-FACTOR 102 (Page 22 Panel 2 through Page 23)
SPIDER MAN: THE MUTANT AGENDA 1-3
X-MEN 31
X-MEN 32
Uncanny X-Men 311
UNCANNY X-MEN 312
UNCANNY X-MEN 313
UNCANNY X-MEN 314
WOLVERINE 76-84
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 150-151 (Wolverine)
X-Men Unlimited 5
Excalibur 76-77
Cable 12-14
X-Men 33
X-Men 34
DAREDEVIL 330 (GAMBIT)
X-FACTOR 103-105
Uncanny X-Men 315
AVENGERS 378
AVENGERS 380-382 (ACOLYTES)

X-Force 35,36,37
CABLE 15
Doctor Strange (1990s series) 69 (POLARIS + FORGE + Xavier)
X-Men Annual 18 (Second Story) (Bishop & Jubilee)
X-Men Annual 18 
EXCALIBUR 78
EXCALIBUR 79
EXCALIBUR 80
EXCALIBUR 81
X-MEN 35
Deadpool (Second Limited Series 1994) 1-4
X-Men Annual 3 Second Story (Banshee) 

--------------------------------------------PHALANX COVENANT-------------------------------
UNCANNY X-MEN 316
X-MEN 36
UNCANNY X-MEN 317
X-MEN 37
X-FACTOR 106
X-Force 38
EXCALIBUR 82
WOLVERINE 85
CABLE 16
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Blaze 4-6 (Warpath)
X-Force 39
X-FORCE ANNUAL 3 (BOTH STORIES)
CABLE 17-19

Ghost Rider 57
Ghost Rider, Wolverine, Punisher: The Dark Design
WOLVERINE 86 (no wolverine)
SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED 6 (CYCLOPS CAMEO)
X-MEN UNLIMITED 6
UNCANNY X-MEN 318
X-MEN ANNUAL 3 (First Story)
X-MEN UNLIMITED 7
BISHOP LIMITED SERIES 1-4
X-Men Ashcan
EXCALIBUR ANNUAL 2 (ALL 3 STORIES)
EXCALIBUR 83-85
Generation X Ashcan
Generation X Collectors Preview 
GENERATION X 1-3
X-MEN 38
ROGUE 1-4

X-FORCE 40-41
X-FORCE 42

UNCANNY X-MEN 319
MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 1994 (1ST STORY)
MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 1994 (6TH STORY)
FORCE WORKS 10 (2ND STORY) (BEAST)

X-Men 39 Page 14
ROGUE 1
X-MEN 39 Pages 1-13, 15-end
ROGUE 2
ROGUE 3
ROGUE 4

X-FORCE 40-41
X-FORCE 42

WOLVERINE 87
WOLVERINE 88
FANTASTIC FOUR 394 (WOLVERINE BTS)
FANTASTIC FOUR 395 (WOLVERINE)

GENERATION X 4
X-FACTOR 107
X-FACTOR 108
X-FACTOR 109

WOLVERINE 89

LEGIONQUEST:
UNCANNY X-MEN 320
X-MEN 40

X-FORCE 43
WOLVERINE 90
EXCALIBUR 86
X-FACTOR 110
X-FACTOR 111

UNCANNY X-MEN 321
CABLE 20
X-MEN 41
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Age of Apocalypse:
X-Men Ashcan (Age of Apocalypse)
X-Men Collectors Preview
X-MEN CHRONICLES 1
TALES FROM THE AGE OF APOCALYPSE: SINISTER BLOODLINES
X-MEN CHRONICLES 2 
TALES FROM THE AGE OF APOCALYPSE 
X-MAN MINUS ONE
AGE OF APOCALYPSE: THE CHOSEN 1
BLINK 1-4
X-MEN ALPHA 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 1
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 1
GENERATION NEXT 1
WEAPON X 1
AMAZING X-MEN 1
AMAZING X-MEN 2
WEAPON X 2
FACTOR X 1
FACTOR X 2
X-CALIBRE 1
X-CALIBRE 2 
X-MAN 1
X-MAN 2
ASTONISHING X-MEN 2
GENERATION NEXT 2
GENERATION NEXT 3
GENERATION NEXT 4
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 2
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 3
X-CALIBRE 3
X-CALIBRE 4
ASTONISHING X-MEN 3
FACTOR X 3
AMAZING X-MEN 3
X-MAN 3
X-MAN 4
FACTOR X 4
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 4
WEAPON X 3
X UNIVERSE 1
X UNIVERSE 2
WEAPON X 4 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 4
AMAZING X-MEN 4
X-MEN OMEGA 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
X-MEN PRIME 
X-FACTOR 112
X-FACTOR 113
X-MAN 5
UNCANNY X-MEN 322
X-MEN 42
X-MEN 43
X-MEN 44
CABLE 21
X-MAN 6
X-MAN 7


EXCALIBUR 87
X-FORCE 44
CABLE 22
WOLVERINE 91
WOLVERINE ANNUAL '95
X-FORCE 45
X-FORCE 46
X-FORCE 47
GENERATION X 5
GENERATION X 6
UNCANNY X-MEN 323
UNCANNY X-MEN 324
WOLVERINE 92
WOLVERINE/GAMBIT: VICTIMS LIMITED SERIES 1-4
HULK 434 (wolverine)
DAREDEVIL 352

X-MEN ANNUAL '95 (First Story)

AVENGERS: THE CROSSING (BEAST)
UNCANNY X-MEN 325
X-MEN 45


UNCANNY X-MEN 326
GENERATION X 7
X-MEN UNLIMITED 8
X-Men 95 (Second Story Flashback)
EXCALIBUR 88
X-men 95 (Second Story)
EXCALIBUR 89
EXCALIBUR 90
WOLVERINE: KNIGHT OF TERRA
STARJAMMERS LIMITED SERIES 1-4
X-MEN: BOOKS OF ASKANI
ASKANI'SON LIMITED SERIES 1-4
CABLE 23
CABLE 24
CABLE 25
X-MAN 8
X-MAN 9
X-MAN 10
CABLE 26
CABLE 27
CABLE 28
X-FACTOR 114
X-FACTOR 115
WOLVERINE 93

BLACK SEPTEMBER INFINITY
NIGHTMAN VS. WOLVERINE 0
NIGHTMAN / GAMBIT 1-3
EXILES INFINITY
EXILES 1
EXILES VS. X-MEN 0
THE PHOENIX RESSURECTION 0
THE PHOENIX RESSURECTION GENESIS 1
THE PHOENIX RESSURECTION REVELATIONS 1
THE PHOENIX RESSURECTION: AFTERMATH 1 
EXILES 2-5
EXILES 6-10
EXILES 11 
ULTRAVERSE UNLIMITED 2 

WOLVERINE 94
GENERATION X 8
GENERATION X 9
WOLVERINE 95
WOLVERINE 96
Ghost Rider 67 (Wolverine & Gambit)
Ghost Rider 68 (Wolverine & Gambit)
X-MEN & CLAN DESTINE 1-2
X-MEN UNLIMITED 9
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 95
GENERATION X ANNUAL '95
GENERATION X 10
GENERATION X 11
GENERATION X 1994 San Diego comic con exclusive

EXCALIBUR 91
EXCALIBUR 92
EXCALIBUR 93
EXCALIBUR 94
X-MAN 11
X-MAN 12
EXCALIBUR 95

X-FORCE 48

Marvel Fanfare vol.2 #4 (Dazzler, Longshot, Mojo II, Spiral)
Marvel Fanfare vol.2 #5 (Dazzler, Longshot, Mojo II, Spiral)


X-MEN 46
X-MEN 47
UNCANNY X-MEN 327 (JOSEPH)
SPIDER-MAN TEAM UP 1 (X-MEN)
AGE OF INNOCENCE 1 (BEAST CAMEO)
SPIDER-MAN TEAM UP 5 (GAMBIT) (ON ORDER)


X-FORCE AND CABLE ANNUAL 95
X-FORCE AND CABLE ANNUAL 95 (SECOND STORY)

UNCANNY X-MEN 328
SABRETOOTH: IN THE RED ZONE 1

X-FORCE 49
X-FORCE 50
X-FORCE 51

X-MEN 48
X-MEN 49
CAPTAIN MARVEL 2 (X-Treme, Eric the red)
CAPTAIN MARVEL 3 (X-Treme, Eric the red)
X-FACTOR 116
X-FACTOR 117
X-FACTOR 118
X-FACTOR 119
X-FACTOR 120
X-FACTOR 121
X-FACTOR 122
X-FACTOR 123
DOC SAMSON 4
X-FACTOR 124
UNCANNY X-MEN 329
UNCANNY X-MEN 330
ARCHANGEL 1
CABLE 29
X-MAN 13
BLACK KNIGHT: EXODUS
CABLE 30
X-MAN 14
CABLE 31

X-Men: Brood: Day of Wrath 1
X-Men: Brood: Day of Wrath 2

X-MEN 50
X-MEN UNLIMITED 10
UNCANNY X-MEN 331
X-FORCE 52
X-FORCE 53
X-FORCE 54

WOLVERINE 97
WOLVERINE 98
WOLVERINE 99
WOLVERINE 100
CABLE 32

FUTHER ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS & PHOENIX 1
FUTHER ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS & PHOENIX 2
FUTHER ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS & PHOENIX 3
FUTHER ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS & PHOENIX 4
UNCANNY X-MEN 332
WOLVERINE 101
WOLVERINE 102
WOLVERINE 102.5 (LONGSHOT, DAZZLER, MOJO II)
WOLVERINE 103

X-MEN 51
X-MEN 52

GENERATION X 12
GENERATION X 13
GENERATION X 14
GENERATION X 15
GENERATION X 16
GENERATION X 17


UNCANNY X-MEN 333
X-FORCE 55
X-FORCE 56
STORM 1
STORM 2
STORM 3
STORM 4

EXCALIBUR 96
EXCALIBUR 97
EXCALIBUR 98

CABLE 33
X-MEN 53
EXCALIBUR 99
X-MAN 15
X-MAN 16
X-MAN 17

ONSLAUGHT:
UNCANNY X-MEN 334
FANTASTIC FOUR 414
X-MEN 54
AVENGERS 400
ONSLAUGHT: X-MEN 1
UNCANNY X-MEN 335
WOLVERINE 104
EXCALIBUR 100
X-MEN UNLIMITED 11
AVENGERS 401
FANTASTIC FOUR 415
X-FACTOR 125
X-FACTOR 126
X-MEN 55
EXCALIBUR 101
CABLE 34
HULK 444
X-MAN 18
X-FORCE 57
UNCANNY X-MEN 336
CABLE 35
X-MAN 19
X-FORCE 58
X-MEN UNLIMITED 12
GENERATION X 18
GENERATION X 19
AMAZING SPIDER MAN 415
GREEN GOBLIN 12
SPIDER-MAN 72
THOR 502
WOLVERINE 105
FANTASTIC FOUR 416
IRON MAN 332
HULK 445
AVENGERS 402
X-MEN 56
ONSLAUGHT: MARVEL UNIVERSE 1
(X-MEN : THE ROAD TO ONSLAUGHT)

JUGGERNAUT (ONESHOT)
Second Story in X-Men Unlimited #13 (Juggernaut, Gomurr)
MAVERICK (ONESHOT)
CABLE 36
GENERATION X 20
UNCANNY X-MEN 337
EXCALIBUR 102
X-MEN 57
ONSLAUGHT: EPILOGUE

MAGNETO LS 1-4
WOLVERINE 106
ELEKTRA 1
WOLVERINE ANNUAL 96 (BOTH STORIES)
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 96
XSE 1
XSE 2
BISHOP: XSE 1
BISHOP: XSE 2
BISHOP: XSE 3
XSE 3
XSE 4

GENERATION X 21 (Beast)

UNCANNY X-MEN 338
X-MEN 58

EXCALIBUR 103
PRYDE AND WISDOM 1
PRYDE AND WISDOM 2
PRYDE AND WISDOM 3
MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 1996 (2ND STORY) (Kitty Pryde)

MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 1996 (5TH STORY) (X-Men)

VENOM: TOOTH AND CLAW (VS. WOLVERINE) 1
VENOM: TOOTH AND CLAW (VS. WOLVERINE) 2
VENOM: TOOTH AND CLAW (VS. WOLVERINE) 3

UNCANNY X-MEN 339
X-MEN 59
UNCANNY X-MEN 340
MARVEL VALENTINE SPECIAL 1 (5TH STORY) LAST PAGE ONLY (REST HAPPENS DURING CYKE & PHOENIX LS)

GENERATION X 22
GENERATION X 23
GENERATION X UNDERGROUND SPECIAL 1
GENERATION X ANNUAL 96
HULK ANNUAL 97 (ARTIE, LEECH, FRANKLIN RICHARDS, others) (Second Story only) 


X-MEN ANNUAL 96
X-FORCE AND CABLE ANNNUAL 96 (First Story)
WOLVERINE  (WOLVERINE, CABLE)
X-FORCE 59
X-FORCE 60
X-FORCE 61


WOLVERINE 107
WOLVERINE 108
WOLVERINE 109
WOLVERINE: DAYS OF FUTURE PAST 1-3
WOLVERINE 110
MARVEL FANFARE VOL.2 #2 (WOLVERINE, VINDICATOR)
MARVEL FANFARE VOL.2 #6 (SABRETOOTH, X-FACTOR)
SABRETOOTH AND MYSTIQUE LIMITED SERIES 1-4
PUNISHER 12-15
X-FACTOR 127
X-FACTOR 128
X-FACTOR 129
X-FACTOR 130
PUNISHER 16
PUNISHER 17
X-MEN 60
X-MEN 61
Venom: On Trial 1 (Bastion)
HULK 454
HULK 455
HULK 456
HULK 457


X-FORCE AND CABLE ANNNUAL 96 (Second Story)
X-FORCE 62
BEAST LS 1
BEAST LS 2
BEAST LS 3

X-MEN UNLIMITED 13 (Silver Surfer/ Juggernaut)
SILVER SURFER VOL.3 #123
X-MEN ANNUAL 97

X-MAN 20
X-MAN 21
X-MAN 22
X-MAN 23
X-MAN ANNUAL 96
X-MAN: ALL SAINTS' DAY
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 420
X-MAN 24
X-MAN 25

EXCALIBUR 104
EXCALIBUR 105
CABLE 37
CABLE 38
CABLE 39
CABLE 40 (Douglock, moira)
EXCALIBUR 106
CABLE 41 (Bishop, Storm)
CABLE 42 (Storm)
CAPTAIN AMERICA VOL.2 #6
CABLE 43 (Cyclops, Jean, Madelyne)
CABLE 44
DOMINO LS 1
DOMINO LS 2
DOMINO LS 3

X-FACTOR 131
X-FACTOR 132
X-FACTOR 133
X-FACTOR 134
X-FACTOR 135
STRONG GUY REBORN 1

EXCALIBUR 107
X-MAN 26
EXCALIBUR 108
EXCALIBUR 109
EXCALIBUR 110
X-MAN 27
X-MAN 28
X-MAN 29
X-Man 30 (First few pages only)
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 425

X-MEN UNLIMITED 14
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 97
X-MEN UNLIMITED 15 (MAVERICK, Iceman, Wolverine, Cyclops)

DEADPOOL 1 (REG SERIES) 
Deadpool 2-5 (Siryn)
Deadpool 6-7 
DAREDEVIL/DEADPOOL ANNUAL 97


WOLVERINE 111
WOLVERINE 112
WOLVERINE 113
WOLVERINE 114
CRIMSON DAWN LIMITED SEIRES 1-4 

X-FORCE & CABLE ANNUAL 97
EXCALIBUR 111
EXCALIBUR 112
COLOSSUS ONE SHOT
EXCALIBUR 113
EXCALIBUR 114 (Pages 1-13)
NEW MUTANTS: TRUTH OR DEATH 1-3
X-FORCE 63
X-FORCE 64
X-FORCE 65
X-FORCE 66

GENERATION X ANNUAL '97
GENERATION X 24
GENERATION X 25
DAYDREAMERS LIMITED SERIES 1-3

IMPERIAL GUARD 1 (PAGES 1-12)
UNCANNY X-MEN 341
IMPERIAL GUARD 1 (PAGES 13-22)
IMPERIAL GUARD 2
IMPERIAL GUARD 3
Hulk Annual 97 (Gladiator)
UNCANNY X-MEN 342
UNCANNY X-MEN 343
UNCANNY X-MEN 344
UNCANNY X-MEN 345
GENERATION X 26
GENERATION X 27
X-FORCE 67 (Angel)
X-MEN 62
X-MEN 63
X-MEN 64
X-MEN 65
CABLE 45
X-FORCE 68
CABLE 46
X-FORCE 69
CABLE 47
X-MAN 30
X-FORCE 70

UNCANNY X-MEN 346
X-MEN 66
WOLVERINE 115
UNCANNY X-MEN 347
X-MEN 67
UNCANNY X-MEN 348
UNCANNY X-MEN 349
GENERATION X 28 (Both stories)????
GENERATION X 29
GENERATION X 30
GENERATION X 31

X-MEN UNLIMITED 16
WOLVERINE 116
WOLVERINE 117
X-MEN 68
X-MEN 69
WOLVERINE 118
UNCANY X-MEN 350
CEREBROS GUIDE TO THE X-MEN (WIZARD)
X-MEN UNLIMITED 18
Gambit 1/2
GAMBIT (SECOND) LIMITED SERIES 1-4
X-MEN 70
SABRETOOTH: BACK TO NATURE
X-FACTOR 136
X-FACTOR 137
X-FACTOR 138
X-FACTOR 139
X-FACTOR 140
X-FACTOR 141
X-MEN UNLIMITED 17
X-FACTOR 142
X-FACTOR 143
X-FACTOR 144
X-FACTOR 145
X-FACTOR 146
X-FACTOR 147
X-FACTOR 148

ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2 # 1-5
MAVERICK 1(REGULAR SERIES)
MAVERICK 2
MAVERICK 3 (ALPHA FLIGHT)
MAVERICK 4
MAVERICK 5-12

QUICKSILVER 1

X-MAN 31
X-MAN ANNUAL 97
EXCALIBUR 114 (SECOND HALF)
KITTY PRYDE: AGENT OF SHIELD LS 1-3
GENERATION X 32
MARVEL TEAM-UP 1 (1990'S SERIES)
GENERATION X 33
EXCALIBUR 115
LONGSHOT ONE-SHOT
GENERATION X 34
GENERATION X 35
GENERATION X 36
GENERATION X 37
GENERATION X 38
GENERATION X 39
GENERATION X 40
GENERATION X 1/2
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 437
GENERATION X 41
CABLE 48
CABLE 49
CABLE 50
CABLE 51
CABLE 52
CABLE 53
CABLLE 54


DEADPOOL 8
DEADPOOL 9
DEADPOOL 10
DEADPOOL 11
BABYS FIRST DEADPOOL BOOK 1
X-FORCE 71
DEADPOOL 12 (WARPATH AND SIRYN)
X-FORCE 72
DEADPOOL 13
X-FORCE 73
X-FORCE 74
DEADPOOL 14
DEADPOOL 15
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY 513 (JEAN AND SCOTT, AND HANK)
X-MEN 71
UNCANNY X-MEN 351
UNCANNY X-MEN 352
QUICKSILVER 2
QUICKSILVER 3
HEROES FOR HIRE 8
HEROES FOR HIRE 9
HEROES FOR HIRE 10 (DEADPOOL) 
HEROES FOR HIRE 11 (DEADPOOL) 
X-MAN 32
X-MAN 33
IRON MAN VOL.3 #1 (ANGEL AND PSYLOCKE)
X-FORCE 75
X-FORCE 76
PINT SIZED X-BABIES
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 429
CABLE & MACHINE MAN ANNUAL '98
MACHINE MAN & BASTION ANNUAL '98
CABLE 55
CABLE 56
X-FORCE 77
X-FORCE 78
X-FORCE 79
X-FORCE 80
X-FORCE 81
X-MEN 72
AVENGERS VOL.3 #1
AVENGERS VOL.3 #2 
AVENGERS VOL.3 #3 
AVENGERS VOL.3 #4
UNCANNY X-MEN 353
UNCANNY X-MEN 354

ALPHA FLIGHT VOL. 2 #6
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL. 2 #7
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2 #8

UNCANNY X-MEN 355
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2 #9

X-MAN 34
X-MAN 35
X-MAN 36
X-MAN 37
X-MAN 38
DAREDEVIL 355 (PYRO)
QUICKSILVER 4
QUICKSILVER 5
QUICKSILVER 6
X-MEN 73
X-MEN 74
EXCALIBUR 116
EXCALIBUR 117
EXCALIBUR 118
EXCALIBUR 119
EXCALIBUR 120
X-MEN 75
X-MEN 76
EXCALIBUR 121
WOLVERINE ANNUAL '97
ELEKTRA 14
WOLVERINE 119
WOLVERINE 120
WOLVERINE 121
WOLVERINE 122
WOLVERINE 123
WOLVERINE 124
UNCANNY X-MEN 356
UNCANNY X-MEN 357
QUICKSILVER 7
QUICKSILVER 8
QUICKSILVER 9
EXCALIBUR 122
EXCALIBUR 123
X-MAN 39
X-MAN 40
WOLVERINE 125
X-MEN UNLIMITED 19
WOLVERINE 126
WOLVERINE 127
WOLVERINE 128
WOLVERINE 129
WOLVERINE 130
X-FORCE 82
X-MEN UNLIMITED 20
X-MEN 77
X-MEN 78
X-MAN 41
X-MAN & Hulk ANNUAL 1998
UNCANNY X-MEN 358
TEAM X 2000 #1
EXCALIBUR 124
EXCALIBUR 125
UNION JACK L.S. 1-3
CABLE 57
CABLE 58
GENREATION X 42
GENERATION X 43
IRON MAN VOL.3 #7
CAPTAIN AMERICA VOL.3 #8
QUICKSILVER 10
AVENGERS VOL.3 #7
UNCANNY X-MEN 359
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #6
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #7 (PHOENIX)
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #8
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2 #10-16
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2/ Inhumans annual 1998
SUNFIRE & BIG HERO 6 L.S. 1-3
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2 # 17-20
X-FACTOR 149
MUTANT X 1-8
MUTANT X ANNUAL 99
MUTANT X 9-13
MUTANT X ANNUAL 2000
MUTANT X 14-28
MUTANT X 29-31
MUTANT X ANNUAL 2001
MUTANT X 32
UNCANNY X-MEN & FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 1998
X-MEN 79
X-MEN UNLIMITED 21
HEROES FOR HIRE 15
QUICKSILVER 11
HEROES FOR HIRE 16
QUICKSILVER 12
HEROES FOR HIRE & QUICKSILVER ANNUAL 1998
HEROES FOR HIRE 17
CABLE 59
CABLE 60
CABLE 61
CABLE 62
DEADPOOL 16 
DEADPOOL 17
DEADPOOL & DEATH ANNUAL 1998
DEADPOOL 18
DEADPOOL 19
DEADPOOL 20
DEADPOOL TEAM-UP 1
DEADPOOL 21
DEADPOOL #0
DEADPOOL 22 (CABLE)
ENCYCLOPAEDIA DEADPOOLICA 1
DEADPOOL 23
DEADPOOL 24
DEADPOOL 25
X-FORCE 83
X-FORCE 84
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #10 (Pressgang) 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #11 (val)
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #12 (Val)


UNCANNY X-MEN 360
X-MEN 80
X-MEN 1/2
GENERATION X HOLIDAY SPECIAL 1
GENERATION X 44
GENERATION X 45
GENERATION X 46
GENERATION X 47
X-FORCE 85
X-FORCE & CHAMPIONS ANNUAL 1998
WOLVERINE: BLACK RIO
X-MAN 42
X-MAN 43
X-MAN 44
UNCANNY X-MEN 361
X-MEN 81
WOLVERINE 131
HEROES FOR HIRE 18 (WOLVERINE)
HEROES FOR HIRE 19 (WOLVERINE)
X-MEN: LIBERATORS L.S 1-4
X-MEN UNLIMITED 22
AVENGERS VOL. 3 #10 (X-MEN)
AVENGERS FOREVER 1 (BEAST FB)
WOLVERINE 132
UNCANNY X-MEN 362
X-MEN 82
UNCANNY X-MEN 363
X-MEN 83
UNCANNY X-MEN 364
X-MEN 84
WOLVERINE ANNUAL 1999 (SECOND STORY) (PLACEHOLDER)
x-men unlimited 25 (second story) (Placeholder)

AVENGERS 1999 ANNUAL
AVENGERS VOL.3 #14 (BEAST)

X-MEN & Dr. Doom ANNUAL 1998
QUICKSILVER 13
WOLVERINE 133
WOLVERINE 134
WOLVERINE 135
WOLVERINE 136
WOLVERINE 137
WOLVERINE 138
GALACTUS 5
GALACTUS 6
X-FORCE 86
X-MAN 45
X-MAN 46
CABLE 63
X-MAN 47
WOLVERINE 1999 (FIRST STORY)
WOLVERINE 139
UNCANNY X-MEN 365
CABLE 64
GAMBIT 1 (REGULAR SERIES)
GENERATION X VS. DRACULA ANNUAL 1998
GENERATION X 48
GENERATION X 49
X-MAN 48
X-MAN 49
CABLE 65
X-MEN 85
X-MEN UNINVERSE 1 (1999 PREVIEW SPECTACULAR)

X-MEN: THE MAGNETO WAR 1
UNCANNY X-MEN 366
X-MEN 86
UNCANNY X-MEN 367
X-MEN 87

CABLE 66
CABLE 67
CABLE 68
CABLE 69
CABLE 70
GENERATION X 50
X-MAN 50
X-MAN 51
X-MAN 52
GENERATION X 51
PETER PARKER SPIDER MAN 4 (MARROW)
X-FORCE 87
X-MEN UNLIMITED 23
Thunderbolts 25
X-FORCE 88
X-FORCE 89
X-FORCE 90
GAMBIT 2
UNCANY X-MEN 368
X-MEN 88
UNCANNY X-MEN 369
MAGNETO REX 1-3
X-MAN 53
X-MAN 54
X-MAN 55
X-MEN 89
UNCANNY X-MEN 370
X-MEN 90
UNCANNY X-MEN 371
X-MEN 91
X-MEN ANNUAL 1999
DEADPOOL 26
DEADPOOL 27 (Kitty, Wolverine)
DEADPOOL 28
DEADPOOL 29

DEADPOOL 30-33

WARLOCK 1
WARLOCK 2
WARLOCK 3
WARLOCK 4
WARLOCK 5
WARLOCK 6
WARLOCK 7
WARLOCK 8
WARLOCK 9
Spider-Man, Peter Parker # 94 (Sebastian Shaw)
X-51 0
X-51 1
X-51 2 (Mystique, Sebastian Shaw)
X-51 3
X-51 4
X-51 5
X-51 6 (Sebastian Shaw)
X-51 7
X-51 8 (x-men)

GENEREATION X 52
WOLVERINE 140
X-MEN UNLIMITED 24
WOLVERINE/PUNISHER (MARVEL KNIGHTS) L.S. 1-4
X-FORCE 91
X-FORCE 92
X-FORCE 93
GAMBIT 3
GAMBIT 4
GAMBIT 5
GENERATION X 53
GENERATION X 54
GENERATION X 55
GENERATION X 56
GENERATION X 57
GENERATION X 58
GENERATION X ANNUAL 1999
WOLVERINE 141
WOLVERINE 142
WOLVERINE 143
WOLVERINE 144
HULK VOL.3 #7 
HULK VOL.3 #8 
X-FORCE 94
X-FORCE 95
X-FORCE ANNUAL 1999
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 1999
X-FORCE 96
X-FORCE 97
CABLE ANNUAL 1999
CABLE 71
GAMBIT 6
GAMBIT 7
GAMBIT ANNUAL 1999
UNCANNY X-MEN 372
X-MEN 92
GAMBIT 8
GAMBIT 9
THUNDERBOLTS 27-30 (ANGEL)
ASTONISHING XMEN (VOL.2) 1
ASTONISHING XMEN(VOL.2) 2
ASTONISHING XMEN (VOL.2) 3
IRON MAN VOL.3 #21
THOR VOL.3 #17 
IRON MAN VOL.3 #22
PETER PARKER SPIDER MAN 11
JUGGERNAUT: THE EIGHTH DAY 1
BISHOP (REG. SERIES) 1
BISHOP 2
BISHOP 3
UNCANNY X-MEN 373
UNCANNY X-MEN 374
X-MEN 93
X-MEN 94
UNCANNY X-MEN 375
X-MEN 95
X-MEN UNLIMITED 25
GENERATION X 59
New warriors VOL. 2 #5 (EMMA FROST)
GAMBIT 10
X-BABIES REBORN 1
X-MAN 56
X-MAN 57
X-MAN 58
WOLVERINE 145
CABLE 72
CABLE 73
CABLE 74
DEADPOOL 34
DEADPOOL 35
DEADPOOL 36
DEADPOOL 37
BISHOP 4
BISHOP 5
BISHOP 6
BISHOP 7
BISHOP 8
UNCANNY X-MEN 376
CABLE 75
X-MAN 59
X-MEN 96
WOLVERINE 146
WOLVERINE 147
X-MAN 60
UNCANY X-MEN 377
X-MEN 1999 YEARBOOK

CABLE 76
X-MEN 97
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 1999
GENERATION X 60
GENERATION X 61
X-FORCE 98
X-FORCE 99
Deadpool 38 (Siryn)
X-FORCE 100
UNCANNY X-MEN 378
CABLE 77
X-MEN UNLIMITED 26
WOLVERINE 148
X-MEN 98
X-MEN UNLIMITED 26 (SECOND STORY) 
X-MAN 61
X-MAN 62
GAMBIT 11
GAMBIT 12
GAMBIT 13
GAMBIT 14
X-MEN: THE HELLFIRE CLUB L.S. 1
X-MEN: THE HELLFIRE CLUB L.S. 2
X-MEN: THE HELLFIRE CLUB L.S. 3
X-MEN: THE HELLFIRE CLUB L.S. 4
GAMBIT 15
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #25 (Magneto)
UNCANNY X-MEN 379
X-FORCE 101
CABLE 78
WOLVERINE 149
X-MEN 99
UNCANNY X-MEN 380
AVENGERS TWO: WONDER MAN AND THE Beast 1-3
GAMBIT 16
GENERATION X 62
MAGNETO: DARK SEDUCTION 1-4
X-MEN: REVOLUTION: GENESIS EDITION
GENERATION X 63
GENERATION X 64
GENERATION X 65
GENERATION X 66
GENERATION X 67
GENERATION X 68
GENERATION X 69
GENERATION X 70
CABLE 79
CABLE 80
CABLE 81
CABLE 82
CABLE 83
CABLE 84
X-FORCE 102
X-FORCE: ROUGH CUT
X-FORCE 103
X-FORCE 104
X-FORCE 105


DEADPOOL 39
DEADPOOL 40
DEADPOOL 41
DEADPOOL 42
DEADPOOL 43
DEADPOOL 44
BLACK PANTHER 23 (DEADPOOL) 
DEADPOOL 45


GAMBIT 17
GAMBIT 18
GAMBIT 19
GAMBIT ANNUAL 2000
X-FORCE 106
X-FORCE 107
X-FORCE 108
X-FORCE 109
GAMBIT 20
X-MEN UNLIMITED 27
X-MEN: BLACK SUN 1-5
X-MEN: MAGIK 1-4
X-MEN 100
X-MEN 101
UNCANNY X-MEN 381
UNCANNY X-MEN 382
WOLVERINE 150
WOLVERINE 151
WOLVERINE 152
WOLVERINE 153
BISHOP 9
IRON FIST/WOLVERINE 1-4
X-MEN 102
UNCANNY X-MEN 383
X-MEN: MILLENIAL VISIONS 2000
X-MEN ANNUAL 2000
X-MEN 103
X-MEN UNLIMITED 28
UNCANNY X-MEN 384
X-MEN 104
UNCANNY X-MEN 385
X-MEN FOREVER 1
X-MEN FOREVER 2
X-MEN FOREVER 3
X-MEN FOREVER 4
X-MEN FOREVER 5
X-MEN FOREVER 6
X-MEN: DECLASSIFIED 1
GAMBIT 21
X-MEN 105
X-MEN 106
UNCANNY X-MEN 386
GAMBIT 22
BISHOP 10
BISHOP 11
BISHOP 12
BISHOP 13
BISHOP 14
X-MAN 63
X-MAN 64
X-MAN 65
X-MAN 66
X-MAN 67
X-MAN 68
X-MAN 69
X-MAN 70
MAXIMUM SECURITY: DANGEROUS PLANET
MAXIMUM SECURITY 1
UNCANNY X-MEN 387
BISHOP 15
X-MEN 107
MAXIMUM SECURITY 2
X-MEN UNLIMITED 29
GAMBIT 23
MAXIMUM SECURITY 3
CABLE 85
CABLE 86
WOLVERINE 154
WOLVERINE 155
WOLVERINE 156
WOLVERINE 157
SPIDER-MAN / MARROW ONE-SHOT 
WOLVERINE ANNUAL 2000
HELLCAT 1-3
X-FORCE 110
X-FORCE 111
X-FORCE 112
X-FORCE 113
BLACK PANTHER 25 (STORM)
BLACK PANTHER 26 (Storm)
BLACK PANTHER 27 (Storm)
UNCANNY X-MEN 388
CABLE 87
BISHOP 16
X-MEN 108
BLACK PANTHER 28 (MAGNETO)
X-FORCE 114
X-FORCE 115
GENERATION X 71
GENERATION X 72
GENERATION X 73
GENERATION X 74
WOLVERINE 158
GAMBIT 24
UNCANNY X-MEN 389
X-MEN UNLIMITED 33

DEADPOOL 45
DEADPOOL 46
DEADPOOL 47
DEADPOOL 48
DEADPOOL 49


CABLE 88
WOLVERINE 159
WOLVERINE 160
WOLVERINE 161
EXACLIBUR: SWORD OF POWER L.S. 1-4
X-MEN 109
X-MEN ANNUAL 2000
X-MEN: THE SEARCH FOR CYCLOPS 1
X-MEN: THE SEARCH FOR CYCLOPS 2
X-MEN: THE SEARCH FOR CYCLOPS 3
X-MEN: THE SEARCH FOR CYCLOPS 4
CABLE 89
CABLE 90
CABLE 91
CABLE 92
DEADPOOL 50
DEADPOOL 51
DEADPOOL 52
DEADPOOL 53

CABLE 93
CABLE 94
CABLE 95
GAMBIT 25
UNCANNY X-MEN 390
X-MEN 110
X-MEN UNLIMITED 30
X-MEN UNLIMITED 31
DEADPPOOL 56 (SIRYN)
WOLVERINE 162
WOLVERINE 163
WOLVERINE 164
WOLVERINE 165
WOLVERINE 166
WOLVERINE 167
WOLVERINE 168
WOLVERINE 169
UNCANNY X-MEN 391
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN VOL.2 #36 (9/11) (CYCLOPS, WOLVERINE, STORM)
GAMBIT & BISHOP: SONS OF THE ATOM ALPHA
GAMBIT & BISHOP: SONS OF THE ATOM 1-6
CABLE 96
X-MEN UNLIMITED 32
X-MEN 111
UNCANNY X-MEN 392
X-MEN 112
UNCANNY X-MEN 393
X-MEN 113
CABLE 97
CABLE 98
CABLE 99
CABLE 100
X-MAN 71
X-MAN 72
X-MAN 73
X-MAN 74
X-MAN 75
CABLE 101
CABLE 102
CABLE 103
CABLE 104
X-FORCE 116
X-FORCE 117
X-FORCE 118
X-FORCE 119
X-FORCE 120

DEADPOOL 54 
DEADPOOL 55

DEADPOOL 56 (SIRYN)
WEAPON X: AGENT ZERO
DEADPOOL 57
DEADPOOL 58
DEADPOOL 59
DEADPOOL 60
DEADPOOL 61 (Siryn, Wolverine)
DEADPOOL 62
DEADPOOL 63
DEADPOOL 64

X-TREME X-Men 1
X-TREME X-MEN 2
X-TREME X-MEN 3
X-TREME X-MEN 4
WOLVERINE ANNUAL 2001
WOLVERINE 170
WOLVERINE 171
WOLVERINE 172
WOLVERINE 173
WOLVERINE 174
WOLVERINE 175
WOLVERINE 176
X-FORCE 121
X-FORCE 122

CYCLOPS (ICONS) 1-4
ICEMAN (ICONS) 1-4
X-TREME X=MEN: SAVAGE LAND 1
X-TREME X-MEN: SAVAGE LAND 2
X-TREME X-MEN: SAVAGE LAND 3
X-TREME X-MEN: SAVAGE LAND 4
GENERATION X 75
X-MEN UNLIMITED 34

THE BROTHERHOOD 1
THE BROTHERHOOD 2
THE BROTHERHOOD 3
THE BROTHERHOOD 4
THE BROTHERHOOD 5
THE BROTHERHOOD 6
CABLE 105
NIGHTCRAWLER (ICONS) 1-4
THE BROTHERHOOD 7
THE BROTHERHOOD 8
THE BROTHERHOOD 9
CABLE 106
CABLE 107

Iron Man Vol. 3 #37
Thunderbolts 57

UNCANNY X-MEN 394
X-MEN 114
X-MEN 115
X-MEN 116
UNCANNY X-MEN 395
UNCANNY X-MEN 396
UNCANNY X-MEN 397
UNCANNY X-MEN 398
X-TREME X-MEN 5
X-TREME X-MEN 6
X-TREME X-MEN 7
X-TREME X-MEN 8
X-MEN ANNUAL 2001
X-MEN 117
X-MEN 118
X-MEN 119
X-MEN 120
X-MEN 121
UNCANNY X-MEN 399
UNCANNY X-MEN 400
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 2001
X-MEN 122
UNCANNY X-MEN 401
X-MEN: MILLENIAL VISIONS 2001
X-TREME X-MEN 9
X-MEN 123
X-MEN 124
X-MEN 125
X-MEN 126
UNCANNY X-MEN 402
UNCANNY X-MEN 403
UNCANNY X-MEN 404
UNCANNY X-MEN 405
UNCANNY X-MEN 406
UNCANNY X-MEN 407
Sabretooth: mary shelley overdrive 1-4
X-FACTOR L.S 1
XFACTOR L.S 2
X-FACTOR L.S. 3
X-FACTOR L.S. 4
X-TREME X-MEN ANNUAL 2001
X-TREME X-MEN 10
X-TREME X-MEN 11
X-TREME X-MEN 12
X-TREME X-MEN 13
X-TREME X-MEN 14 
X-TREME X-MEN 15
X-TREME X-MEN 16 
X-TREME X-MEN 17
X-TREME X-MEN 18
X-MEN 127
UNCANNY X-MEN 408
UNCANNY X-MEN 409

DEADPOOL 65
DEADPOOL 66

DEADPOOL 67 (DAZZLER)
DEADPOOL 68
DEADPOOL 69

X-MEN UNLIMITED 35
X-MEN UNLIMITED 36
X-FORCE 123-129
X-TEREME X-MEN 19
X-MEN 128
X-MEN 129
X-MEN 130
WOLVERINE 177
WOLVERINE 178
WOLVERINE: NETSUKE 1-4
X-MEN 131
X-MEN 132
X-MEN 133
X-MEN UNLIMITED 37
UNCANNY X-MEN 410
UNCANNY X-MEN 411
UNCANNY X-MEN 412
UNCANNY X-MEN 413
CHAMBER (ICONS) 1-4
X-TREME X-MEN: X-POSE 1
X-TREME X-MEN X-POSE 2
WOLVERINE 179
WOLVERINE 180
WEAPON X: KANE
WEAPON X: WILD CHILD
WEAPON X: MARROW
WEAPON X: SAURON
WEAPON X 
MUTIES 1
MUTIES 2
MUTIES 3
MUTIES 4
MUTIES 5 
MUTIES 6
X-Statik 1-5
Punisher (marvel knights) 16-17 (wolverine)
WOLVERINE 181
WOLVERINE 182
WOLVERINE 183
WOLVERINE 184
WOLVERINE 185
X-MEN UNLIMITED 38
Mekaniz 1-6
Exiles 18
Exiles 19
UNCANNY X-MEN 414
UNCANNY X-MEN 415
WEAPON X (REG. SERIES) 1
WEAPON X 2
WEAPON X 3
WEAPON X 4
AGENT X 1
AGENT X 2 
AGENT X 3-6
X-MEN UNLIMITED 39
SOLDIER X 1-6
UNCANNY X-MEN 416
X-MEN 134
WOLVERINE 186
SOLDIER X 7
SOLDIER X 8
AGENT X 7
X-MEN UNLIMITED 43
X-MEN UNLIMITED 44
UNCANNY X-MEN 417
UNCANNY X-MEN 418
UNCANNY X-MEN 419
UNCANNY X-MEN 420
WOLVERINE 187
X-TREME X-MEN 20
X-TREME X-MEN 21
X-TREME X-MEN 22
X-TREME X-MEN 23
AGENT X 8
AGENT X 9
AGENT X 10
AGENT X 11
SOLDIER X 9
SOLDIER X 10
X-MEN UNLIMITED 45
UNCANNY X-MEN 421
UNCANNY X-MEN 422
UNCANNY X-MEN 423
UNCANNY X-MEN 424
X-MEN 135
X-MEN 136
X-MEN 137
X-MEN 138
WOLVERINE 188
WOLVERINE 189 (FINAL ISSUE)
X-TREME X-MEN 24
WEAPON X 5
SOLDIER X 11
SOLDIER X 12
WEAPON X 6
WEAPON X 7
WEAPON X 8
WEAPON X 9
WEAPON X 10
X-MEN 139
X-MEN 140
X-MEN 141
X-TREME X-MEN 25
X-TREME X-MEN 26
X-TREME X-MEN 27
X-TREME X-MEN 28
WOLVERINE: XISLE 1-5

			*	*	*

X-MEN: MILLENIAL VISIONS 2001
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 30, 2004 at 18:48:54:
In Reply to: How to Read the X-Men in Just 40 years 
posted by David Hall on January 30, 2004 at 00:03:32:

> X-MEN: MILLENIAL VISIONS 2001

This inclusion of this one leaves me scratching my head. Was any of this material ever followed up on?

- SK 

			*	*	*

Re: X-MEN: MILLENIAL VISIONS 2001
Posted by David Hall on January 30, 2004 at 22:02:22:
In Reply to: X-MEN: MILLENIAL VISIONS 2001 
posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 30, 2004 at 18:48:54:

Not to my knowledge...Just keep in mind that what I posted is a reading order. That's why it includes things such as oh say The Road to Onslaught, which was a Marvel text issue about that crossover (and not an actual cannon comic book.) My list was never meant to be a strict chronological ordering (cause how could you do that with a list of titles is beyond me, that's what the MCP is for.)

Dave

			*	*	*

Re: X-MEN: MILLENIAL VISIONS 2001
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 31, 2004 at 13:17:27:
In Reply to: X-MEN: MILLENIAL VISIONS 2001 
posted by StAkAr Karnak on January 30, 2004 at 18:48:54:

> > X-MEN: MILLENIAL VISIONS 2001

> This inclusion of this one leaves me scratching my head. Was any of this material ever followed up on?

I've never read it, but I gather it includes some of the backstory for Nocturne, which was later recycled into EXILES.

			*	*	*

Re: X-MEN: MILLENIAL VISIONS 2001
Posted by Andy Holcombe on January 31, 2004 at 17:49:15:
In Reply to: Re: X-MEN: MILLENIAL VISIONS 2001 
posted by Paul O'Brien on January 31, 2004 at 13:17:27:

> > > X-MEN: MILLENIAL VISIONS 2001

> > This inclusion of this one leaves me scratching my head. Was any of this material ever followed up on?

> I've never read it, but I gather it includes some of the backstory for Nocturne, which was later recycled into EXILES.

I believe the Morlocks limited series has it's roots in one of the Millenial Visions books. 

			*	*	*

Coming Next: How to Read the ENTIRE MARVEL UNIVERSE in Just 40 years?
Posted by rhod on February 02, 2004 at 14:50:07:
In Reply to: How to Read the X-Men in Just 40 years 
posted by David Hall on January 30, 2004 at 00:03:32:

You can do it David! (in a Rob Schneider voice) ;-)

			*	*	*

Re: Coming Next: How to Read the ENTIRE MARVEL UNIVERSE in Just 40 years?
Posted by David Hall on February 04, 2004 at 18:00:54:
In Reply to: Coming Next: How to Read the ENTIRE MARVEL UNIVERSE in Just 40 years? 
posted by rhod on February 02, 2004 at 14:50:07:

Sure, if you want to buy me all of those comics... 

			*	*	*

X-Factor Additions
Posted by David Hall on January 30, 2004 at 22:57:53:

Bowser (Val Cooper's boss)

**XF 121
**XF 124
**XF 127
**XF 132
**XF 133
**XF 134
**XF 135
XF 137

Trevor Chase (Destiny's grandson)
**XF 127
**XF 132
XF 134
**XF 135
XF 137
**XF 139

Cole Chase
**XF 132
**XF 135
**XF 137

Justine Chase (Destiny's daughter)
**XF 132
**XF 135
**XF 137

			*	*	*

Re: X-Factor Additions
Posted by David Hall on January 31, 2004 at 17:19:54:
In Reply to: X-Factor Additions 
posted by David Hall on January 30, 2004 at 22:57:53:

Oops I left out XF 136 for Bowser


Bowser (Val Cooper's boss)
**XF 121
**XF 124 
**XF 127
**XF 132
**XF 133
**XF 134
**XF 135
**XF 136
XF 137

			*	*	*

Re: X-Factor Additions
Posted by David Hall on February 08, 2004 at 22:02:31:
In Reply to: Re: X-Factor Additions 
posted by David Hall on January 31, 2004 at 17:19:54:

Found another one, Bowser is in W '97 (he hires Volk to kill Logan)

Bowser (Val Cooper's boss)
**XF 121
**XF 124 
**XF 127
**XF 132
**XF 133
**XF 134
**XF 135
**XF 136
XF 137
**W '97

			*	*	*

C2 36 Analysis
Posted by Sean on January 31, 2004 at 13:55:07:

Cable 36
October 1996
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Guest Pencils: Bernard Chang
Appearances: Franklin Richards, Cable, Nathaniel Richards, Cannonball, Domino, Storm, Caliban, and sorta Aliya and Tyler
Synopsis: In the Four Freedoms Plaza, Nathaniel Richards tries to heal the techno-organic virus which has now completely consumed Cable. Franklin, Cannonball, Domino, Storm, and Caliban stand by and watch. When Nathaniel claims Cable is going to die soon, Franklin sends Cables mind to a dream world. There, he talks to Tyler and Aliya and is thus able to put the techno-organic virus back in check to only affecting his arm.
References: Right after Onslaught.
Cable  after O:MU, like, RIGHT after, so even though I dont have M/HOL 1996, XM25, or H2 455 I think its before them. C2 36 is the issue where Cable gets the techno-organic virus under control (hopefully that will help you place it.) Its definitely BEFORE C2 38.
Domino  after XFOR57 because thats during Onslaught. Its before C2 38. I dont have XFOR 62 so I dont know how it compares to that.
Cannonball  I dont have UX 337. This is after X55 and most likely before X57 because C2 36 seems to be RIGHT after Onslaught while X57 is a while later.
Storm  should be after O:MU and before X57.
Caliban  after XFOR57. Again, I dont have XFOR 62, and Im pretty sure its before XFOR 97 because those are normally published at the beginning of the year.
Nathaniel Richards  This is after FF416 and before GENX 20, but I dont have TM/U 1 so I dont know how it compares to that.
Franklin Richards  After O:MU, before GenX20, and I dont have TB2 so I dont know how it compares to that.

The dream sequence is weird. I cant tell if Cable is actually communicating with Tyler and Aliya in the other world or if theyre just figments of his imagination. If they are actual appearances, they would be the most modern appearance for both of them.

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Re: C2 36 Analysis
Posted by david Hall on January 31, 2004 at 13:57:46:
In Reply to: C2 36 Analysis 
posted by Sean on January 31, 2004 at 13:55:07:

Franklin is using his power to make Cable 'see' Aliya and Tyler (who are both dead) Cable makes peace with his ghosts, and he moves on. So, as this is all happening in Cable's mind (due to Franklin's power), I would not count these as actual appearances. If we saw thier ghosts on an actual physcial plane, then I probably would.

Dave

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C2 37 Analysis
Posted by Sean on January 31, 2004 at 14:20:50:

C2 37
November 1996
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Penciler: Ian Churchill
Appearances: Psycho-Man, Cable, Domino, Copycat, Weapon X (Kane), and G. W. Bridge
Synopsis: A few weeks after Onslaught, the Weapon X base in Canada has been hit and S.H.I.E.L.D. sent in Bridge to check it out. Meanwhile, in San Francisco, Domino and Cable go see Kane, who has gotten together with Copycat and are seemingly under attack for being mutants. Copycat and Domino battle for a bit while someone manipulates Kane and Copycats emotions. We find out that the manipulator is Psycho-Man who captures Kane and flees into the Microverse.
References: a few weeks after Onslaught
Cable  directly before C2 38 (like, a few seconds before) so obviously after H2 455 and C2 36.
Domino  again, right before C2 38 so it must be after XFOR 62 and C2 36.
Psycho-Man  before C2 38 and after FFU 8
Copycat  before C2 38 and after W2 88
G.W. Bridge  before C2 38 and after TM/ U 1
Weapon X  after W2 88 and before C2 38.

Just a note, I didnt check any of the issues that came before this. Im just assuming that since theres only a few seconds between C2 37 and C2 38 that no other appearances happen between them.

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What's new from Marvel in April...
Posted by Kevin on January 31, 2004 at 15:13:33:

Okay, here's the deal: I've been emailing this list of Marvel Previews to Paul B. every time it's come out in the last few months, so we could go over what new releases are coming out that we'll need to keep track of from Marvel, for chronology reasons. So I figured I'd save a step and post the link here, open for discussion from everyone. The previews help to give an idea of which direction the comics are heading in upcoming months, so we know what to prepare for chronology-wise, and they also detail new comics that will be coming out which we may need someone to perhaps do a chronology review for.

Here's the link:

http://comics.toonzone.net/solicitations/2004-04/marvel.php

Anyway, there's a few new things of importance. First of all, you should note that the "Antman" MAX miniseries has been cancelled....therefore, we won't have to determine if it's canon or not. Because it'll never get published. The most important new title is probably the new Spiderman title, simply called "Spiderman". We also have another "Marvel Age" title: "Marvel Age: Fantastic Four #1"

I'm not sure what the point of the "Marvel Age" line of comics is supposed to be...are they simply updating the stories for contemporary times? And if that's all there is to it, should we look to those titles to be canon?


There's a new DD miniseries titled "DD: Father"
I'll probably pick it up, but I get the suspicion it'll have nothing to do with the current plot in DD, and thus, be set in the past...I could be wrong though.

The only other news I think is that the Human Torch solo series is coming to an end...

I just post this for "a need to know" basis, for anyone to go over that needs the info... 

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Re: What's new from Marvel in April...
Posted by Paul O'Brien on January 31, 2004 at 15:30:27:
In Reply to: What's new from Marvel in April... 
posted by Kevin on January 31, 2004 at 15:13:33:

> I'm not sure what the point of the "Marvel Age" line of comics is supposed to be...are they simply updating the stories for contemporary times? And if that's all there is to it, should we look to those titles to be canon?

The MARVEL AGE books are simply updated retellings of old 1960s stories, somewhat like PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN. I'd regard them as non-canon.

Basically, they're meant to be providing material for the Marvel Age digests which are going to appear in the bookstores.
