	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Seth in Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix
2. Heimdall
3. More thoughts about What If...
4. Ann Raymond
5. Question; prose stories that appear in comic books; are they
6. Marvel Age Annual 1
7. Pocket Rockets and Star Drives
8. GORR...D.W. GRIFFITH...GUDRUN
9. Transformers in Joe Robertson's Chronology?
10. THADDEUS E. "THUNDERBOLT", VULTURE (Minor Changes)
11. Red Skull chronology issues
12. What do Braces/Red Font mean?
13. Transformers as canon?
14. Recent X-Men -- yet another stab at a calendar
15. Flashbacks
16. QUENTIN HARDERMAN...VICTORIA HELLSTROM...HUGIN
17. FF: Nobody Gets Out Alive TPB
18. Vision and Searlet Witch#5 question
19. Vulture's apparitions
20. HUMP...IRON MAIDEN...IRON MAN
21. Satan and Mephisto note; adjustment
22. Question about FORGE
23. "Parker" in THOR #141
24. Billy Connors, a lesson in MU aging
25. Preparing for the newest Spiderman title...
26. Iron Man: The Best Defense
27. NXM #153 and the Stepford Cuckoos (SPOILERS)
28. Ugh. Cyclops in NM2 #10.
29. Hulk chronology error:Mighty Thor #385
30. Odin chronology nits; Thor I#311-313
31. RICARDO JONES...LUNATIK...MANITOU
32. Valeria; actually two different characters
33. Black Knight V/Dane Whitman and the Exiles
34. ASM 429
35. MINDBLAST...MONSTER FROM THE LOST LAGOON...MYSTIQUE
36. Dr. Doom in UX 145-147 should not be BTS
37. heroes reborn: doom
38. Iron Monger
39. N'GASSI...NANNY II...NOBILUS
40. Nova Chronology
41. Black Panther in KS

	Ultimate Universe Forum
42. Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #9

	Issue Analysis Forum
43. The wedding of Scott and Jean (warning: long)
44. Crimson Dynamo
45. X-Babies

	Bug Reports Forum
46. Will last messages of old boards be archived at some point?
47. Contest of Champions II



Thread 1

Posted: 29 Feb 2004 04:50 pm    Post subject: Seth in Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix
By Scathach80

Seth appears to Apocalypse in a flashback in Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix#1. 

One of the annoying things about the way Seth is depicted in the Marvel Universe is the fact that most writers who do not handle him in Thor or Thunderstrike remain oblivious to his Thor appearances. 

Anyway, the flashback occurs around 2940 BCE, since it involves Apocolypse's youth. It would definetly come before the latest flashback in Thor#240, which takes place around the time of Cleopatra's death, but well after Punisher Annual#2, where Seth starts his worship in Egypt. 

SETH II [EGYPTIAN GOD] 
T 240-FB 
PUN2@ 2/4 
H2 257-FB 
*C&P2 1-FB 
T 240-FB 
JIM -1 
...................................

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Feb 2004 05:25 pm
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

That flashback is actually a re-worked version of an event seen in "the Rise of Apocalypse" #3. However, in the original scene, it's not Seth he sees, but Isis. 

Actually, the original scene differs in many ways. In the original, Apocalypse (masked, to hide his blue lips) takes a break from performing some unseen slave labor atop a half-built pyramid. He is whipped, and falls off the pyramid, landing at the feet of a statue of Osiris (not Seth). That statue seems to morph into Isis, who tells him to choose light or darkness. Then his power explodes from within, and he floats radiantly above the other slaves, who think him to be a god. 

In the flashback, Apocalypse (not masked!) is helping raise a statue of Seth. He is whipped, and as his power begins to erupt, the statue seems to address him, telling him he was born to be a conqueror. Then his power explodes from within, and he floats radiantly above the other slaves and slave-drivers, who fall to their knees. 

These two versions of events are too similar to be separate events -- it's not likely that Apocalypse saw TWO statues speak to him on TWO separate occasions, each followed by a power burst. They've got to be referencing the same event. Obviously, there's some discrepancy -- which god spoke to him? Who was the statue of? But I think the bigger question is -- did the gods really speak to Apocalypse, or did he hallucinate it? 

After all, he was in pain (mortal pain in the ROA version), and his power was just bursting forth. It's very easily arguable that he simply hallucinated the whole thing. The narration from C&P #2 reads "Seth himself *seems to* address him", and in ROA #3 he actually wonders to himself if he's hallucinating. The case is strong. 

Also, I find myself wondering if the reason that the C&P2 flashback is different from the ROA scene, is that Apocalypse's memory is playing tricks on him. After all, by this point he's 5000 years old -- he's surely forgotten or romanticized his initial power manifestation just a bit by now (note that in the FB, "slave and slave driver alike fall to their knees", whereas we don't exactly see that in ROA #3). 

If the differences can be written off as "Apocalypse's faulty memory", or if both scenes can be described as "hallucinations", then Seth was never there at all. 

However, on the off-chance that we decide that the gods really DID visit Apocalypse that day, and that BOTH versions of events actually happened, here's how I think they would interlace: 

ROA #3 (pp.2/3 panels 1-2) - Apocalypse hefts a huge stone up to the top of a half-built pyramid. 
C&P2 #1-FB (p.16 panel 2) - While up there, he is ordered to help raise a statue of Seth. 
ROA #3 (pp.2/3 panels 3-5, p.4 panel 1) - he takes a short break, and is confronted by Ozymandias... 
ROA #3 (p.4 panel 2) - ...who whips him. (Shown again in C&P2 #1-FB p.16 panel 3 -- Apocalypse's unmasked face must be artist error.) 
ROA #3 (p.4 panels 3-8) - Apocalypse falls to the base of the pyramid, and lands below a statue of Osiris. Mortally wounded, he sees the statue morph into Isis, who urges him to choose a path of good or evil. 
C&P2 #1-FB (p.16 panel 4) - Then, as Apocalypse begins to glow, the statue morphs from Isis to Seth, who urges him to choose evil. (Apocalypse's unmasked face, and the manifestation of Seth being drawn as a statue of Seth, ropes and all, must be artist error.) 
ROA #3 p.5 panel 1 - fully healed, Apocalypse watches as his body glows with light... 
ROA #3 p.5 panel 2 - which explodes outwards as he levitates, shocking the slaves and slave-drivers alike. (Shown again in C&P2 #1-FB p.16 panel 5.) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Feb 2004 06:15 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

By the way, I just remembered that in X-Factor #24, Apocalypse claimed to have BEEN Seth. (He spells it Set here, but I believe they're the same god, right?) 

In any case, we know that Apoc wasn't Seth -- H2 #457-FB shows us that he WAS posing as a god in ancient Egypt, yes, but it was Aten. But his claim to have been Set in X-Factor #24 tells us two things: 

1) His memory is playing tricks on him, and 
2) he's got a preoccupation with Seth. 

Both of which call the canonicity of the C&P2 #1-FB into question... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Feb 2004 06:55 pm    Post subject: Seth as opposed to Seth
By Scathach80

"By the way, I just remembered that in X-Factor #24, Apocalypse claimed to have BEEN Seth. (He spells it Set here, but I believe they're the same god, right?)" 


In the Marvel Universe, Set (Elder God) and Seth (brother of Osiris) are different gods, per Punisher Annual#2. 

You see, Robert E. Howard in his Conan stories had a proto-Egyptian land named Stygia. The Stygians worshipped a god named Set-a serpent god. (This was an idea original to Robert E. Howard; In the original Egyptian myth, the brother of Osiris is usually shown as a jackal-headed human.) Later it was established by L. Sprague de Champ and Lin Carter that Set was also behind the Serpent Men that Kull fought in Valusia 8,500 years before Conan lived. 

Conan, of course, was adapted by Marvel, and Marvel Premiere#4-5 (a Doctor Strange storyline) featured an appearance by Sligguth-identified as a patron of the Serpent Men of Valusia. So, right then and there, Conan and Kull-and by extension Set and Stygia-became part of the Marvel Universe. 

Set was later (in Marvel Two-In-One#66) credited as the power source behind the Serpent Crown and faced the Scarlet Witch in that issue. Later, Thor Annual#10 established Set as one of Earth's first gods, formed just after the planet was formed. 

However, Thor I#240-241 introduced the Egyptian gods to the Marvel Universe.....including Seth. However, the Appendix page of the original Official Handbook listed Set and Seth as different characters. Punisher Annual#2 revealed that after Stygia had evolved into Egypt, a younger god, eager to usurp Set (the Elder God)'s worshippers, assumed a variation of Seth's name. This younger god was Osiris' brother. 

So it was that Seth (brother of Osiris) appeared to Set's (Elder God's) worshippers and fooled them into thinking he was Set, and so stole Set's worshippers. 

Sadly, very few Marvel writers seem to be aware of this Punisher Annual#2 story, and few of them seem to be aware of Seth's Thor appearances! Thus, whenever some Marvel writer wants to use the Egyptian gods, he will hamfistedly refer to Seth (brother of Osiris) as Set, and then have him drawn in a form which does not remotely resemble the costume that Seth wears in his Thor appearances. 

This happens in X-Factor#24, Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix#1, Hulk 2#257, and Moon Knight IV. 

A good rule of thumb with regards to chronology to differentiate Set (Elder God) and Seth (brother of Osiris) 

1. Conan and Kull appearances/references refer to Set (the Elder God). 
2. Appearances involving the Serpent Men and Serpent Crown refer to Set (the Elder God). 
3. Appearances involving the brother of Osiris refer to Seth. 
4. Appearances involving ancient Egypt (stories after about 3500 BCE) refer to Seth). 

It might be a good idea to adjust the Set listing to 
Set (Elder God) 

.................................................................................................... 
"In any case, we know that Apoc wasn't Seth -- H2 #457-FB shows us that he WAS posing as a god in ancient Egypt, yes, but it was Aten. But his claim to have been Set in X-Factor #24 tells us two things: 

1) His memory is playing tricks on him, and 
2) he's got a preoccupation with Seth." 

It shows us that Apocalypse was pulling the same trick that the Maha Yogi pulled when he impersonated Merlin or what various Eternals have done by posing as gods. 

Apocalypse has also posed as Huitxilopochti, Sauru, and Kali-Ma.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Feb 2004 06:57 pm    Post subject: Sligguth note
By Scathach80

Oh, Sligguth was the son of Set (the Elder God).

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Posted: 29 Feb 2004 07:19 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Damn, fellow, you sure know your Marvel gods. Good stuff! 

So, Apocalypse briefly posed as "Set", brother of Osiris -- who in turn was posing as Set, the elder god? Wacky. 

By the way, have we ever seen the Egyptian god Aten in Marvel mythos? Was Apoc merely POSING as a pre-existing Aten in the Hulk #457 flashback, or did he actually CREATE the identity? 

Also, were Apoc's other identities of Huitxilopochti, Sauru, and Kali-Ma really pre-existing gods? Or were they merely identities created by Apocalypse? 

And, back to the questions I originally asked -- do we think Apocalypse was hallucinating the visions of Isis and/or Seth? And, do we think the C&P2 1 FB is a faulty memory of Apoc's, or should it be wound, as canon, into the ROA scene as I proposed? 

-Jeph! 
Oh, and if you need to edit your posts (say, to include that last bit of info you posted separately), the "edit" button is in the top right-hand corner.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Feb 2004 07:40 pm    Post subject: Kali was seen in War Machine
By Scathach80

"Also, were Apoc's other identities of Huitxilopochti, Sauru, and Kali-Ma really pre-existing gods? Or were they merely identities created by Apocalypse?" 
Kali was seen in War Machine. The two others have not been seen-however, since other gods in their pantheon have appeared in Thor, they must exist. 

"And, back to the questions I originally asked -- do we think Apocalypse was hallucinating the visions of Isis and/or Seth? And, do we think the C&P2 1 FB is a faulty memory of Apoc's, or should it be wound, as canon, into the ROA scene as I proposed? " 
For the sake of completeness, I would go with it as you proposed.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Feb 2004 08:04 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
The two others have not been seen-however, since other gods in their pantheon have appeared in Thor, they must exist. 
<<<

Well, not necessarily. Sure, in OUR world those gods are part of those pantheons, but in the MU they may never have existed at all -- and Apoc just made up a name out of thin air, and claimed to the natives that he was part of one of the local pantheons. As long as the actual pantheons didn't notice (or care), Apoc could have pulled it off. 

Which reminds me -- Aten -- real or not, in the MU? 

Quote: 
>>>
For the sake of completeness, I would go with it as you proposed. 
<<<

I'm personally sort of tempted NOT to -- but I'd like to get some feedback from other posters. Once they get through watching the Oscars, that is.  

So, again, do you think that was REALLY Isis and Seth, manifesting to Apocalypse? Or was he just hallucinating? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Feb 2004 08:24 pm    Post subject: Aten-not seen to my knowledge
By Scathach80

Which reminds me -- Aten -- real or not, in the MU? 
To my knowledge, we have not seen Aten in the Marvel Universe. 

There was a Thor story where Osiris or Isis gave the Earth-force the Sign of Aton, but otherwise I can recall no references. 

The trouble with the Egyptian gods is that few writers use them, and they only turn up sporadically.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Mar 2004 07:53 am    Post subject: Seth, Isis, Apocalypse and his identities
By dimadick

Good idea to not concider the two flashbacks mutualy exclusive, Jeph. But why would the appearances by Seth and Isis be unlikely? They have been established as being parties in a millenia-long-war between the Egyptian Gods and at the same time trying to establish their worship over Egypt. Any chance they could be trying to recruite a follower in En Sabah Nur? Apocalypse could well have taken advantage of Seth's preoccupation with the "eternal" battle against Horus to impersonate his apparently favorite deity. 

By the way Apocalypse's assumed identities seem to be following a patern. Seth was the Egyptian god of strength, war, storms, deserts and foreign lands. Sauru was a Daeva, a Zoroastrian archdeamon who reportedly represented anarchy and tyrrany. Kali was a fierce Indian goddess of creation and destruction, life and death, joy and pain. Huitzilopochtli was the Aztec god of War, constantly demanding human sacrifices in his honor. Not very different from Apocalypse were they? 

But Aten does not realy fit this profile. His full name was Ra-Horus-Aten, obviously a synthesis of older gods Ra and Horus. He had no humanoid form and was depicted in the form of light-rays extending from the sun disk. I checked a modern translation of Akhenaten's "Great Hymn to Aten". Aten is described as the patron of all life on Earth, beauty and grace personified, the one who drives darkness and fear away. Elsewhere Aten is described as dictating peace. This doesn't realy sound like Apocalypse, does it? To be honest this is a part of his backstory who always seemed out of place to me.

*********************************************************************************

Thread 2

Posted: 01 Mar 2004 04:41 pm    Post subject: HEIMDALL
By captamr

Heimdall makes an appearance in the Asgardian crowd in Thor #371 (pg.2, pn.1; pg.3, pn.1; pg.5, pn.1). Identified by his helmet, this is the period of no Rainbow Bridge and hes referenced as being sent on a mission in #372. 

HEIMDALL (Asgardian) 
T 368 
T 371** 
T373
_________________
Charlie

*********************************************************************************

Thread 3

Posted: 29 Feb 2004 04:47 pm    Post subject: More thoughts about What If...
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Back in the early days of "What If?", each issue would be introduced by the Watcher, who would show us a story, and explain how events occured differently here than in the MU -- telling us where events diverged, and what the consequences were to that world. The impression given was that all of these divergent worlds REALLY DID EXIST -- that they're part of the Marvel Multiverse, actual alternate dimensions that can be observed and visited. 

However, with issue #76 or so of What If vol. 2, the Watcher was written out of the book, and each issue displayed a scenario where events played out differently -- WITHOUT a framing sequence. 

Can we assume that these later issues, like the ones with the Watcher in them, show us ACTUAL DIVERGENT UNIVERSES? Or should we assume, since the Watcher isn't there to validate them, that they're now purely imaginary tales? 

I've found what I believe are canon scenes of the 616 universe in What If v2 #-1. However, this issue doesn't have the Watcher there, to confirm that we're watching an alternate world -- so there's a good chance that the entire story, including the canon pages, could be classified as "imaginary". 

What say you, Chronologites? Are What If tales assumed to be actual alternate worlds until proven differently, or assumed to be imaginary unless validated by the Watcher? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Feb 2004 05:32 pm    Post subject: what if? 100/2
By rhod

A case could actually be made for the back-up story in wi? 100 being canon, as the ff's visit to 'Oz', whether real or occuring only in Sue Storm's mind, doesn't seem to conflict with ff history (and let's face it, it's not a lot more far-fetched than anything else the ff have ever done)

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Posted: 29 Feb 2004 07:52 pm    Post subject: What If#118 characters show up in Avengers Forever#11-12
By Scathach80

What If#118 characters show up in Avengers Forever#11-12, so that would indicate that post #76 are out there somewhere.

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Posted: 29 Feb 2004 08:17 pm
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Just checked that out -- the index lists them as from What If v2 #114, not #118, but I assume we're talking about the same guys -- the offspring of the Secret Wars heroes in the final issue of What If v2, right? 

Now, being that it WAS the final issue of What If ... did we get a "special appearance" by the Watcher, or any dialogue explcitly saying that this was a real, branch universe? Or was it introduced just like all the other stories from #76-on, with no indication that it was anything besides a potentially-imaginary tale? 

Hmm. We may have a precedent here. Good eye. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Mar 2004 06:21 pm    Post subject: Spider-Girl also debuted in What If II#105
By Enda80

Spider-Girl debuted in What If II#105, and a few of her supporting team appeared in Avengers Forever#11-12.

*************************************************************************************

Thread 4

Posted: 01 Mar 2004 04:04 pm    Post subject: Ann Raymond
By Cook

If I remember correctly, Ann Raymond made an appearance in a flashback in Sub-Mariner #14 (June 1969). This should be placed prior to her appearance in Avengers West Coast #48

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Posted: 02 Mar 2004 03:09 am    
By Peter Fabricius

She is certainly in my copy, page 19. 

There are 2 distinct flashbacks. 
p9-11 with Egghead, Puppet Master, Thinker and Toro 
Toro is brainwashed into believing he is the original android Human Torch, and to do the Thinker's bidding. 

p19 with Ann Raymond, Thinker and Toro 
Toro attends the 'funeral' of the original Human Torch and is abducted by the Thinker. 

The second flashback occurs after FF Annual 4, the first several weeks before Sub-Mariner 14. 

I noticed that the Thinker's listing had him in a flashback in Avengers Forever 8 after the flashback in Sub-Mariner 14, but as far as I can tell the AVF 8-FB ends with the scene from SUB-M 14-FB p19, and the brainwashing of Toro, as seen in SUB-M 14-FB p9-11 has to occur after he is abducted. 

I don't have all the relevant comics inbetween FF Annual 4 and Sub-Mariner 14, but Avengers Forever should be moved to reflect the above, unless I am mistaken. 

THINKER 
... 
FF@ 4 
AVF 8-FB (moved from its cuurent position 
SUB-M 14-FB 
...
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Thread 5

Posted: 02 Mar 2004 03:30 pm    Post subject: Question; prose stories that appear in comic books; are they
By Enda80

Question; prose stories that appear in comic books; are they canon? 

I ask because a couple of prose Man-Thing stories appeared in Monsters Unleashed, a few prose Dracula stories showed up in Dracula Lives, most of Night Raven's appearances were prose stories. 


Prompting this question also was Spider-Man#54, which featured a prose story with the Black Bee. I have a reprint of this story, so if anyone wants a summary of it, I can provide it. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/blackbee.htm 

http://darkmark6.tripod.com/man-thing_index.html

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Posted: 02 Mar 2004 03:45 pm
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I would say, in general, yes. 

If I recall correctly, though, that story in Spider-Man #54 was an excerpt from a novel, right? I don't think we consider the novels canon. 

Also, I don't think we consider the "Marvel Chillers" line canon either, as they're more "kids' books in the shape of a comic" than "comic book with text story inside". 

But yes, things like the Night Raven text stories are absolutely part of his canon. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 02 Mar 2004 04:12 pm    Post subject: Ah, but since it actually appeared in a comic............
By Scathach80

"If I recall correctly, though, that story in Spider-Man #54 was an excerpt from a novel, right? I don't think we consider the novels canon." 

Ah, but since the story actually appeared inbetween the covers of a comic book, could not an exception be made for this story? 

Now, I would not include all of the stories that appeared in the prose anthology in the project, but since, as noted, this one was actually published in a mainstream title. 

For those of you who might be interested, the tale takes place concurrenlty with Amazing Spider-Man#7. Sadly, I do not have that issue, but for those who do, the story starts with the conclusion of a battle with the Vulture. 

Two days later, Peter and his aunt decide to take a trip to Atlantic City. It is there that they meet the Black Bee. Three days after his meeting with the Black Bee, the rematch with the Vulture occurs.

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Posted: 02 Mar 2004 05:45 pm    
By ShadZ

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
If I recall correctly, though, that story in Spider-Man #54 was an excerpt from a novel, right?  
<<<


No, it was one story from a short story collection.
_________________
ShadZ

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Mar 2004 10:26 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Close enough. It was a single story, "excerpted" -- perhaps "reprinted" might be a better word -- from a book of short, text stories. 

I still don't think we should make an exception for this story, just because it "appeared in a comic" -- its primary place of publication was a novel (or, yes, book of short stories), and we just don't cover those here. 

Yet. 

-Jeph!

*****************************************************************************************

Thread 6

Posted: 02 Mar 2004 07:59 pm    Post subject: Marvel Age Annual #1
By Cook

I'm not sure if this issue has ever been discussed, but it features 1-page "previews" of Marvel titles tied together as a 25 page story featuring Kurt Busiek calling the heroes. 
My first instinct is to call it non-canon, but there are a few scenes that might be considered canon...

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Mar 2004 10:39 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Man, that story's so hokey that it doesn't deserve to be canon!  I mean, I know there's a "Marvel Comics" in the Marvel Universe, but that story is too much. 

Actually, all four Marvel Age Annuals have stories that "could be considered canon" in them ... I wouldn't recommend the story in #1 for inclusion in the MCP -- but maybe some of the others, though. I'll have to look -- but, if memory serves, one of the other annuals featured all the heroes guesting on the Fred Hembeck Show and showing clips of their upcoming comics! Can stuff like that really be canon? 

-Jeph!

********************************************************************************************

Thread 7

Posted: 03 Mar 2004 08:04 am    Post subject: Pocket Rockets and Star Drives
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

As Russ noted a while back, I'm a bit swamped of late so I don't swing by the boards here too much, but StAkAr Karnak e-mailed me about this issue with Vance Astro and Reed Richards' spaceship, so I'll give a quick run-down... 

Even from the early days of Stan and Jack, it was recognized that Reed's "Pocket Rocket" -- initially designed to generically go "to the stars!" -- was government-funded. I believe it's specifically cited that funding was cut in the flashback of FF #11, hence the need for Reed and co. to take the rocket up immediately. I believe it's always been maintained that it was a government project from the start, and Reed didn't start using his own fortunes until after funding was cut. How exactly he wiped out his own money has never been made entirely clear. (Was he spending his own money for materials? Salaries? Was he just not taking a salary himself?) John Byrne retconned things slightly early in his run by saying that the rocket itself wasn't experimental, but its new star-drive engine was. After the FF were hit with cosmic rays, the rocket crashed in New York state, and the FF were picked up/found by the government. (Why charges were never pressed for stealing government property has always bugged me.) The Pocket Rocket has never been seen/heard of again, although I would imagine the government picked up the pieces and put them in a warehouse somewhere. (The pieces were all cleared away and the damage was all repaired when we next see the crash site.) Reed never returned to the project. 

Initially, the Pocket Rocket was indeed a traditional-looking rocket as any other cylindrical spaceship of the 1960s. Over the next 20 years or so, it slowly lost it's name (it just stopped being referenced) but the ship looked essentially the same. (The most notable change I ever saw was the number of tailfins drawn.) Claremont and Larroca made the biggest change a few years back, removing the "rocket" aspect almost entirely by drawing it as a space shuttle! 

The upshot, retcons and all... Reed, working for the government, designed a "Pocket Rocket" star drive that was attached to the back of a space shuttle. Funding was cut, the original pilots were yanked from the project, and Reed took it upon himself to launch the thing into space with his fiancee and her 15-year-old brother, and his best friend. 

There ya go! 

-- Sean, who enjoyed being able to step away from this really frickin' annoying MBA program for a few brief moments to talk about something he actually likes!

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Posted: 03 Mar 2004 06:57 pm    Post subject: OHOTMU Update '89 #1 - "Reed's experimental starship&qu
By StAkAr Karnak

I'll provide a context to this by saying that this thread picks up from the message located at: http://www.chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/messages/5990.htm 
(Don't reply to anything on the old board, folks; this is only for reference.) 

John McDonagh posted a quote from the OHOTMU Update '89 #1 entry for Vance Astro. The point to all of this is to establish the relationships between the 616 Marvel Universe and the Guardians of the Galaxy's reality. By extension, there is a question of the relationships with the Killraven seen in AA2, but that has been discussed elsewhere. 

John's quote: "Astro volunteered for the first manned interstellar mission ever conducted by the United States government. In this alternate future Reed Richards never released his own experimental starship to the government." 

The traditional wisdom is that 616 diverged from the Guardians' reality in M/TIO 69. This implies that 616 had a War of the Worlds event in the early 20th Century, an idea some have found distasteful. 

Since Mister Fantastic seems to have been an important difference between the two timelines, I turned to Sean Kleefeld, the resident FF expert: 

"John Byrne retconned things slightly early in his run by saying that the rocket itself wasn't experimental, but its new star-drive engine was. After the FF were hit with cosmic rays, the rocket crashed in New York state, and the FF were picked up/found by the government. 

"The upshot, retcons and all... Reed, working for the government, designed a "Pocket Rocket" star drive that was attached to the back of a space shuttle." 

I strongly believe that the overwhelming majority of GOTG-lore from their appearances in DEFENDERS in the early 70s down to the present favors the traditional M/TIO divergence. If this is not the case, then many of the stories are seriously defanged. How can we reconcile OHOTMU/U/89? 

- SK

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Thread 8

Posted: 04 Mar 2004 08:39 am    Post subject: GORR...D.W. GRIFFITH...GUDRUN
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

new entries marked ** 

GORR 

FF 175 
**Q 16 (unnamed 6p3, 8/9p4) 


GRIFFITH, D.W. 

PM 23 
**PM 24 
**PM 25 
PM 26 


GUDRUN [ASGARDIAN] 

** T 366 (4p3 voice only) 
**T 367 
**T 374 
**T 382 
**T 397 
T@ 17/3 
T 454 


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#161

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Thread 9

Posted: 04 Mar 2004 08:56 pm    Post subject: Transformers in Joe Robertson's Chronology?
By Scathach80

Posted: 04 Mar 2004 08:56 pm    Post subject: Transformers in Joe Robertson's Chronology?     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
PPTSS 95 
ASM 256 
I noticed something odd: 

ASM@ 18 
PPTSS 97 
TFORM 3 
ASM 260 

Interesting. I though Tranformers was written off as non-canon. 

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Posted: 04 Mar 2004 09:24 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

It shouldn't be there. Thanks. 


watching: bring it on

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Thread 10

Posted: 04 Mar 2004 12:47 am    Post subject: THADDEUS E. "THUNDERBOLT", VULTURE (Minor Changes)
By Mart

As 'Untold Tales of Spider-Man #5' is listed in Spider-Man's chronology, i'm assuming that the books considered cannon? (If not, how come? Oh, and disregard everything under this.) 

ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. "THUNDERBOLT" 

FF 12 
H 6 
* UTSM 5 
A 5 

VULTURE/ADRIAN TOOMES 
ASM 2 
ASM 7 
* UTSM 5 
ASM@ 1 
ASM 18

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Posted: 04 Mar 2004 07:03 am    Post subject: Thunderbolt Ross and Vulture
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Your placements of Thunderbolt Ross and the Vulture in UTSM 5 are in the right spots on their chronologies. Note that Vulture also appears in UTSM 12, between UTSM 5 and ASM@ 1. As for Ross, I have him appearing in Iron Man: The Iron Age #1 between H6 and UTSM 5.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 04 Mar 2004 12:35 pm    
By Mart

Thanks, was this all discussed/suggested earlier and just not added to the MCP?

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Posted: 05 Mar 2004 01:15 am    
By John Simons

Yeah, I took a look at UTSM a few months back; you can find those posts back on the old board (if it's still there?). I believe Russ said recently he was going over August posts for site updates, which I would take to mean that it may be a little bit still before the info makes it's way into Vulture's Ross's, and everyone else's chronologies.

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Thread 11

Posted: 04 Mar 2004 08:51 pm    Post subject: Red Skull chronology issues
By Scathach80

A while ago Mr. Arthur Stein was wondering if the Red Skull (Johann Schmidt) was behind the scenes in Captain America#326. 

For those of you who may not remember, in Captain America#300, the Red Skull died. In Captain America#326, investigating reports of strange events at Skull mansion, Cap went to investigate, and discovered an entity claiming to be the Red Skull's ghost. This entity then presented Cap with the alleged ghosts of Scourge I, MODOK, an Ultimatum agent (the one Captain America had slain in Cap#323), and the Porcupine. 

Towards the end of the issue, it was revealed that Doctor Faustus was behind this plot, and had caused Captain America to experience illusions of recently slain foes. However, the "ghost" of the Red Skull then attacked Doctor Faustus. The implication was that this was the actual ghost of the Red Skull, who was annoyed that Doctor Faustus had dared usurp his home . 

In Captain America#350, this situation was turned on its head, because in that issue, it was revealed that the Red Skull had never died. Rather, he had pulled the Arnim Zola transfer my mind into a cloned body trick. 

The explanation as to the ghost in Cap#326 came in the Red Skull's entry in The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Update '89#6. In that issue, it was revealed that Johann Schmidt had discovered Doctor Faustus' plot, and decided to punish him by causing Faustus to undergo an illusion of being attacked by his ghost. 

So, to adjust the Red Skull's chronology: 

RED SKULL II/JOHANN SCHMIDT 
CA 350/2 
CA 383/4 
**CA 326-BTS 
CA 329-BTS 

However, a question that this has brought to my mind; I wish to know how to list The Official Handbook as a source. It is not hard to find (in fact, many sites reproduce entries from the Official Handbook such as 
http://www.marveldirectory.com/ and norseman.net) but I would care to know how to cite it so people can know how we arrived at this information. 

This will be very important with the Maha Yogi, since quite a few of his appearances were attributed to him in The Official Handbook. It was in the Official Handbook that we found out that the Maha Yogi was the "Merlin" in the origin of Modred the Mystic in Marvel Chillers#1 and thus also in the retelling of Modred's origin in Doctor Strange III#11/2. 

The new wave of Encyclopedias brings up another issue. After all, the recent Marvel Knights Encyclpodia entries for Dracula, Hannibal King, and Frank Drake clarified/explained how Dracula came back after he was destroyed by the Montesi Formula. Namely, in Nightstalkers#18, an explosion occured. It is in the Marvel Knights Encyclopedia that we find out that that explosion merged Frank Drake, Hannibal King, and Bloodstorm into a new Dracula without the original's memories. 

Said Frank Drake/Hannibal King/Dracula appeared in those early 1990's issues of the short-lived Blade series, and at some point after those issues the spirit of the original Dracula usurped this body, casting out the souls of Hannibal King and Frank Drake. If the early 1990's Blade series is ever chronologized, one would have to list Hannibal King and Frank Drake as behind the scenes in those issues, since they were part of that composite Dracula. 

Jumping back to Red Skull matters, in Update '89#6 we discover that the Albert Malik Red Skull began his career as the Red Skull in the 1940's. The intention clearly was to account for Captain America Comics#61, released in 1947, which featured the Red Skull in a post-World War II setting. So, to add this in: 

RED SKULL III/ALBERT MALIK 
**CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 61 
CA@ 13-FB 
YOUNG MEN 24 
CA 155-FB

Last edited by Scathach80 on 06 Apr 2004 01:08 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 04 Mar 2004 09:33 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Scathach80 wrote: 
>>>
However, a question that this has brought to my mind; I wish to know how to list The Official Handbook as a source. It is not hard to find (in fact, many sites reproduce entries from the Official Handbook such as marveldirectory.com and norseman.net) but I would care to know how to cite it so people can know how we arrived at this information.  
<<<


Well, outside of the Posting Board, we don't cite sources in the Project itself. A better question would be how much weight do we extend to information gleaned from Marvel, but not in the stories themselves? 


watching: bring it on

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Posted: 04 Mar 2004 09:55 pm    Post subject: Well, if it is professionally published.............
By Scathach80

"Well, outside of the Posting Board, we don't cite sources in the Project itself. A better question would be how much weight do we extend to information gleaned from Marvel, but not in the stories themselves?" 

I'm all for it. It still comes from a professionally published source, so it is not fan fiction. 

All in all, this is the best way for writers to nail down chronology. It would be very stilted otherwise.

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Posted: 05 Mar 2004 02:41 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

My view on the Handbook is that, as long as it's actually consistent with the stories themselves, it applies. If it's not consistent with the stories, then it's in error. 

Basically, it's authoritative when it comes to resolving ambiguities and filling in gaps.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 05 Mar 2004 05:53 am    Post subject: Albert Malik
By dimadick

The flashback in Captain America Annual #13 "revealed" that Albert Malik was appointed as the new Red Skull by Georgi Malenkov in 1953. Historically Georgy Maximilianovich Malenkov only acted as the actual leader of the Soviet Union between the death of Iosif Vissarionovich Stalin on March 5, 1953 and the appointment of Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev as General Secretary on September 7, 1953. 


Captain America Comics #61 was published with a cover date of March, 1947. At the time the positions of General Secretary and head of goverment were still held by Stalin. 

Any reason why Albert would serve a single mission as Red Skull, stay inactive for six years and then be reappointed?

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Posted: 05 Mar 2004 07:44 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Perhaps Malik was appointed by Malenkov in 1947? Does the flashback actually say Malenkov was running the Soviet Union at the time? Might he simply have been a high-ranking official?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 05 Mar 2004 09:11 am    Post subject: Georgi Malenkov
By dimadick

The flashback only mentions Malenkov as a leading member of the Soviet Goverment. Assuming this is a reference to the Politburo, Malenkov served as its deputy premier from 1946 till March 5, 1953 and then replaced Stalin as premier from March 5, 1953 till his forced resignation in February, 1955. 

Howefer both the year 1953 and Malenkov were probably referenced in the flashback in connection with the actual first appearance of the Communist Red Skull. Young Men #24 was published with a cover date of December, 1953. Actually his only other appearance during the 1950s was Young Men #27 where he is assumed deceased after falling off a moving truck. He was revealed to be alive in Amazing Spider-Man #5, first published in November, 1968. 

By the way the flashback scenes in Captain America Annual #13 also reveal Malik reviving and working alongside fellow agent Electro/Ivan Kronov whose only previous appearance and apparent death had occured in Captain America Comics #78 . However the only Electro who has a listing at the project is Max Dillon. Any explanation?

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Posted: 05 Mar 2004 09:58 am    Post subject: Stalin's corpse is shown, so........
By Scathach80

"Howefer both the year 1953 and Malenkov were probably referenced in the flashback in connection with the actual first appearance of the Communist Red Skull." 

I recall that Stalin's corpse was shown in that issue. 

The Red Skull entry in Update '89#6 indicates that Malik was active as 
the Red Skull by himself in the 1940's, and then went to work for the Soviets in the 1950's. 

As to the gap in his career of six years......perhaps his defeat in Captain America Comics#61 discouraged him from continuing in the role. Later on, the Soviets (who knew from reports from the original Red Guardian the truth of the original Skull's outcome) decided to look him up to find out if he would be interested in resuming the role for them. 

I know Captain America Annual#13 seems to imply that he became the Red Skull for the first time in the 1950's, but I don't recall anything that definetly stated he had never worked as the Red Skull before 1953.

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Posted: 05 Mar 2004 02:41 pm    Post subject: Red Guardian and Red Skull
By dimadick

Actualy the Project theorises that Red Guardian I and Red Skull III were both Albert Malik. The flashback scenes in Captain America Annual #13 featuring the final battle in April, 1945 between Red Skull/Johann Schmidt on one side and Captain America/Stevent Grant Rogers, Spirit of '76/Willian Nasland. Patriot/Jeff Mace and Red Guardian on the other led to another scene. A scene featuring a private meeting between Red Guardian and Stalin. The account of this private meeting was found by Johann Schmidt in the private diary of Albert Malik. Thus the assumption. 

Anyway the only other time Red Guardian I was featured in action was in his own debute in Namor Annual #1 (1991). The Annual took place during the Potsdam Conference (July 17 - August 2, 1945). Red Guardian was featured as bodyguard to Stalin, Captain America/William Nasland as boduguard to Harry S. Truman and Namor McKenzie as bodyguard to Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill. The later is mentioned as Prime Minister which further helps place the flashback. His term ended on July 27, 1945 and the Prime Minister concluding the conference was his successor Clement Richard Attlee. 


Albert seems to have acquired quite a long presumptive history following his death in Captain America I #347, hasn't he?

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Thread 12

Posted: 05 Mar 2004 03:51 pm    Post subject: What do Braces/Red Font mean?
By Scathach80

What do braces and red fonts mean?

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Posted: 05 Mar 2004 08:42 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

From the Key: 

Quote: 
>>>
Where a character's first published appearance is not also the first chronological appearance, the first published appearance is listed in red. 
<<<


With the next update, the red text will be replaced by braces. 


watching: dateline

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Thread 13

Posted: 05 Mar 2004 09:32 am    Post subject: Transformers as canon?
By Nathan P. Mahney

I realise that later issues of Transformers precluse it from being canon, and I know what Marvel have said on the issue, but it's obvious that the early issues were considered part of the Marvel Universe. This would be frightfully easy to ignore were it not for that Circuit Breaker appearance in Secret Wars II #5... 

What I'm wondering is if it's possible to just include the early issues as canon. Is there a convenient break point in the series that could account for all those references and also count as an end to the series as well? I know it's probably more trouble than it's worth, but I thought I'd bring it up anyway. 

- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 05 Mar 2004 10:07 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

I think Marvel's official statement (in the book's own letters column) was that the series was never canon, regardless of what appeared in early issues. It's presumably an alternate Earth of some sort. The subtly different continuity from the UK edition of Transformers is definitely an alternate reality forming part of the Marvel multiverse, since it was the home of Death's Head for a while.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 05 Mar 2004 09:52 pm    Post subject: circuit breaker
By rhod

Do we assume therefore that Circuit Breaker -616 suffered an almost identical accident/incident as Circuit Breaker -T'formers, inspiring her to don a mesh of metal circuits to control her paralysed body? (and become one of the sexiest characters in comicdom  )

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Posted: 05 Mar 2004 10:55 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Or we could assume that the Beyonder plucked her from her universe ... or that he travelled there himself. 

That's what I assume, at any rate.  

-Jeph!

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Thread 14

Posted: 06 Mar 2004 02:25 pm    Post subject: Recent X-Men -- yet another stab at a calendar
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Haven't heard from Jeph about this in a while, so hoping that this means there were no or few other comments to make on my last attempt at a recent X-calendar, I'm giving it another shot here. 

To make NM2 2 occur the day after NM2 1, I had to shift a number of calendar entries back a week, then re-shuffle a few things (such as X-Isle and Snikt!) to make things fit. One thing I haven't double-checked is Logan's now-you-see-it, now-you-don't goatee, but maybe this arrangement works a bit better than the last one I submitted. 

To sum up, it looks like a very busy spring for our mutants, with lots of stories happening in a relatively short period of time. This is fine with me, as it slows the progress of Marvel Time, the passage of which we all recognize as a challenge. 

So here it is... 


Saturday, April 26 
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (20-21p2) 
One day, months after XX 24 (18-19). Sam and Lila return to Paris, where it isspring and we see green grass and trees. 

Sunday, April 27 
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (21p3-21p4) 
Probably the morning after XX 23 (1-16). In Paris, Cannonball and Lila have breakfast and read an on-line news item about the events of XX 20-22. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #423 
One day. It cannot be a few weeks after UX 422, but rather several months, as noted in UX 424. Nightcrawler, Havok, Polaris, Cyclops, and Jean are all at Xaviers. Logans goatee is gone and he has a new outfit, black with yellow tiger stripes. The Church of Humanity leaves a calling card in front of Xaviers  a bunch of crucified mutants, including Jubilee, Skin, Jesse Bedlam, and Magma, shortly before NM2 3 (1-19); I suggest a Sunday as a symbolic day to do this. Archangels healing powers save some of them, but Angelo dies. Xorn and Xavier cannot be reached; Xavier probably has left the school as he intended to do. After Cyclops chews out Kurt for not briefing the team about the Church, they discover that someones been messing with Kurt through his presumed life as a priest. That night, they find slaughtered mutants beneath St. Michaels Church. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #424 (1-5p1) 
The same night as UX 423. At St. Michaels church, the X-Men discover the plot of the Church of Humanity and decide to head to Montana to fight it. It is several months after the destruction of Genosha in X 115. 

Monday, April 28 
UNCANNY X-MEN #424 (5p2-24p2) 
The day after UX 424 (1-5). It is a few months after UX 422, and the reference that UX 423 is only a few weeks after UX 422 must be incorrect. The X-Men attack the Church of Humanity compound in Montana, where we see green grass. The X-Men prevail. 

Thursday, May 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN #424 (24p3-24p8) 
One day, days after UX 424 (5-24). Nightcrawler thinks about the Church of Humanitys pope and reflects on his own abiding faith. We see green trees and a butterfly at Xaviers. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #425 (1-4) 
One night. Havok has a romantic dream about Annie. 

Friday, May 2 
UNCANNY X-MEN #425 (5-17p1) 
The day after UX 425 (1-4). Iceman refers to having turned to solid ice the other day. At Alexs bachelor party, Alex comes to grips with his feelings for Annie. Forge is there, but he and Xavier probably have no opportunity to meet, given the reference in MYS 1. At Lornas bachelorette party, Lorna ends up with a stripper dressed like Gambit, while Iceman hooks up with Annie. Xavier is still nowhere to be seen. Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch appear at the parties (and at the wedding). Green grass and trees at Xaviers. 
X-STATIX #11 (18) 
One day, two weeks after XS 11 (17). El Guapo cheats on his girlfriend and Doop takes pictures of the infidelity. 

Saturday, May 3 
UNCANNY X-MEN #425 (17p2-23) 
The day after UX 425 (5-16). It is a few weeks (more like seven) before XX 40. Realizing his true feelings, Alex calls a halt to the wedding ceremony. Professor X is among the attendees, as is Forge, so this segment likely occurs after MYS 2; perhaps Xavier and Forge traveled together from DC to New York to attend the wedding. It also appears that Soldier X and Domino are here, probably sometime between SX 7 and WX2 6 (18-23). Rogue and Gambit are here, but the X-Treme team doesnt seem to be, and neither does Chamber. Magma cannot be one of those present, as she is in a coma. Cannonball is presumably here, based on remarks he makes in XX 40. Green grass and trees at Xaviers, where it is warm enough for an outdoor wedding; in fact, Alex remarks that its hot today. My placement of the wedding here means that Alexs and Lornas engagement lasted several months. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #426 
The same day as UX 425 (17-23). It is a few months after UX 419. Havok refers to UX 424 (5-24) as having occurred recently. He also notes that the last few weeks have been so chaotic. The scorned Polaris attempts to kill Havok and Annie, but shes taken out by Juggernaut. Havok and Annie discover that theyve had a relationship, thanks to the mutant power of Annies son Carter. Alex and Annie jet to Paris for a day to turn their fantasy relationship to reality. This issue must occur before EXILES 28. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. 

Sunday, May 4 
EXILES #28 
Probably the day after UX 426, since Annie tells Paige about her and Alexs time in Paris the previous night. Wolf-kid Nicholas Gleason cuts Havok open and good Alex is replaced by a bad Alex, who attacks the mutants at Xaviers. The Exiles teleport in to stop bad Alex and the Dominant Species werewolves show up. Warren admits his love for Paige and discovers that his uncle is responsible for the shenanigans at Lobo Tech. Wolverine has no goatee and is wearing is tiger-stripe costume. We see green grass and trees and blowing leaves and Xaviers. It is warm enough outdoors for short sleeves. 
EXILES #29 
The same day as EXILES 28. The Exiles and the X-Men battle both the bad Alex and the Dominant Species werewolves. Kurt notes that the X-Mens jets are all out, that they wrecked a few lately, and that Cyclops group has something big going. Green grass and trees in New York. 
EXILES #30 (1-21) 
The same day as EXILES 29. The Exiles and X-Men defeat the werewolves. Nocturne sends bad Alex to the empty void whence he came and good Alex returns. The Tallus gives the Exiles four days to stay with the X-Men, until EXILES 30 (22-23). During that four days, no other X-adventures are likely to occur. Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
WOLVERINE: XISLE #1 (1-22) 
One day. Logan takes Amiko to a museum, then they go to a carnival, where we see green grass and trees and a variety of dress, from shorts and halter tops to jackets. There, Logan gets angry and frustrated, and when he loses control, he forces Amiko to run away from him. Logan then drowns his sorrows at a bar. 

Monday, May 5 
WOLVERINE: XISLE #1 (23) 
The day after W:X 1 (1-22). Logan is passed out on a little island, where he paid a helicopter pilot to drop him off at sunrise. 
WOLVERINE: XISLE #2 
The same day as W:X 1 (23). 
WOLVERINE: XISLE #3 
The same day as W:X 2. 
WOLVERINE: XISLE #4 
The same day as W:X 3. 
WOLVERINE: XISLE #5 
The same day as W:X 4. Logans introspective anger management ends and the pilot arrives to pick him up at sunset. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #4 (1) 
One day. David tells his parents that he is thinking of taking another course  a summer class  at the University of Chicago. 

Tuesday, May 6 
WOLVERINE: SNIKT #1 
One night. While walking in New York City, Logan is approached by a girl named Fusa who demands that he help her save her people from extinction by genocide. Both are pulled into a vortex of space and time. In a future earth, Logan defends himself against cybernetic creatures called the Mandate. 
WOLVERINE: SNIKT #2 
The same night as W:S 1. Logan actually spends this issue in an alternate future. 
WOLVERINE: SNIKT #3 
The same night as W:S 2. Logan actually spends this issue in an alternate future. 
WOLVERINE: SNIKT #4 
The same night as W:S 3. Logan actually spends this issue in an alternate future. 
WOLVERINE: SNIKT #5 
The same night as W:S 4. Logan returns from the alternate future, presumably the same night as he left. 

Thursday, May 8 
EXILES #30 (22-23) 
One day, four days after EXILES 30 (1-21). The Exiles say their goodbyes to the X-Men, and Warren keeps Illyanas sword. Green trees at Xaviers. 
X-STATIX #12 (1-10) 
One day. Dead Girl becomes a fashion model and faces protesters while her teammates start a mission on the India/Pakistan border. Tike fetches Dead Girl for the mission and finds her at X-Statix morgue, where they encounter a mortician with necrophilia. Green grass and trees in California. 
NEW X-MEN #134 (1-2) 
One rainy night. Mutant designer Jumbo Carnation dies in Alphabet City. This event is noted as having occurred the other night in X 135 (1-14). 

Friday, May 9 
NEW X-MEN #134 (3-22) 
The day after X 134 (1-2). Logan is not at Xaviers. Reference is made to Jean being in Hong Kong and expected home soon after being away for a while; however, it seems Jean may run into unexpected delays, as she doesnt make it back home until X 138 (16-23). We see green grass and autumn leaves in Westchester and there is a reference to it being late summerwhich must be topical. 
X-STATIX #12 (11-22) 
The day after XS 12 (1-10). The morticians daughter goes on a shooting spree at her high school and ends up being shot dead by police. Dead Girl kills the mortician to protect the daughter and X-Statix finishes its work in Asia. Green grass and trees in California. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #427 
One day. Warren, Paige, and Jubilee visit Skins grave in Los Angeles, where we see green grass and trees. It is long enough after UX 423 for Angelo to have been buried. In fact, this story may occur after EXILES 30 (22-23). The narration notes that this story occurs after a month that included the attacks by the Church of Humanity and by Polaris  I interpret this to mean that those events occurred in the same month and that this story is set early in the following month. Husk and Jubilee deal with the exhumation and cremation of Angelos body because of cemetery policy regarding mutants, while Archangel uses his healing power to save some hospitalized kids. 

Saturday, May 10 
X-STATIX #13 (1-10) 
One day, years after XS 13-FB (1/2p3). Henrietta Hunters spirit inhabits a corpse and alters its appearance to look like herself. This news immediately spreads and Spike Freeman gets X-Statix to fetch her for the team. Once at X-Statix headquarters, the team makes her feel unwelcome and she bolts for Lacunas TV talk show. Xavier is shown here standing, so this story must occur before X 146 (and thus before X 142); it is likely before Xavier announces his intention to step down as headmaster in X 138 (10-14). 

Sunday, May 11 
X-STATIX #13 (11-17) 
Perhaps the day after SX 13 (4-10). After a foiled attempt on Henriettas life, Spike makes her part of X-Statix and the team expresses its displeasure with Spikes unilateral decision. Spike then signs a deal with those who want Henrietta dead to set up a battle between X-Statix and a group of super-powered Euro-Trash. 
NEW X-MEN #135 (1-14) 
A school day at Xaviers. Xavier notes that he is opening the doors to the Institute to non-mutants in three days time. Since X 138 labels Open Day a Wednesday, this then must be a Sunday; X 121 establishes that Xaviers doesnt hold to traditional human school practices, so there may very well be Sunday classes. Quentin Quire has changed considerably in recent weeks. Quire refers to the murder of Jumbo Carnation in X 134 (1-2) as having occurred the other night. Glob Herman probably appears here after UX 416. We see green grass and trees in Westchester and its seasonable enough for Xorns Special Class (which is convening for the first time) to go camping. Because of its special nature, Xorns class may not follow the traditional semester. High on kick, Quentin Quire and his Omega Gang assault a group of mutant-hating youths. 

Monday, May 12 
NEW X-MEN #135 (15-22) 
The day after X 135 (1-14). Xavier discusses the Quire situation telepathically with his X-Men, including Jean, who is still in Hong Kong, and Logan, who isnt necessarily at Xaviers. Xorn continues the camping trip with the Special Class. Green grass and trees. 
X-STATIX #13 (18-21) 
Perhaps the day after XS 13 (11-17). While in New York to attend the opening of the new X-Statix megastore, X-Statix are attacked by the Euro-Trash and Spider-Man joins the fray. It appears to be warm in Manhattan. 
X-STATIX #14 (1-19) 
The same day as XS 13 (18-21). X-Statix and Spidey battle the Euro-Trash, who retreat inside the store and hold Henrietta hostage. X-Statix leave the scene, but after Doop shows them how Spike Freemans been manipulating them, the team ties him up and returns to destroy the Euro-Trash and free Henrietta. Spidey kind of gets lost in the shuffle. At a follow-up press conference, Henrietta announces she intends to use X-Statix to continue her charitable work and to change the teams costumes. 

Tuesday, May 13 
NEW X-MEN #136 (1-21) 
The night of the day after X 135 (15-22). The Omega Gang attacks a group of U-Men, and a squad of U-Men attacks the Special Class, who are still on the camping trip. Beak and Angel have sex, apparently for the first time, given the dialog. Xorn defeats the U-Men and the class is taken back to Xaviers school, where the Omega Gang capture Xavier. It is before a Friday. Green grass and trees. 

Wednesday, May 14 
NEW X-MEN #136 (22) 
The morning after X 136 (1-21). It is Open Day at Xaviers, the day that Xavier has invited non-mutants to tour the school for possible enrollment, perhaps for the semester following this. The Omega Gang begin their attack on the school. According to XX 24, this issue occurs after XX 23. Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
NEW X-MEN #137 
The same day as X 136 (22). Wolverine is back at Xaviers, sporting a goatee once more. The X-Men battle the Omega Gang. In the end, Quentin Quire is defeated and Sophie of the Stepford Cuckoos is killed. Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
NEW X-MEN #138 (1-6) 
The same day as X 137. The X-Men deal with the aftermath of the Omega Gangs riot on a Wednesday. Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (21p5-22p1) 
One day. Still in Paris, Cannonball and Lila learn of the riot at Xaviers via the internet, so this segment may occur the same day as X 137. 

Thursday, May 15 
NEW X-MEN #138 (7-9) 
It is presumably a Tuesday, six days after X 138 (1-6), but Emma mentions that Sophie died yesterday, making this segment the day after X 137, a Thursday. The remaining Stepford Cuckoos announce that they will depart Xaviers after the upcoming prize-giving ceremony and walk out on Emma; this notice may be months in advance  the Cuckoos may intend to stick it out for the rest of the school year, then transfer to an exclusive school that may not have openings until the summer. Emma notes that she is twenty-seven; this would make her a teenager at the time of her debut in UX 129. Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
X-STATIX #14 (20-22) 
One day. It is probably a few days after XS 14 (1-19)  long enough for Henrietta to get lots of fan mail, design new costumes, and raise awareness and money for various causes, but no too long, as Spike Freeman is still trussed up in his bathrobe. With Henriettas Q-rating outstripping the rest of the team and demands for her to become team leader, X-Statix decide that she must die. 
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (22p2) 
One day. Cannonball learns that things with the X-Treme team are serious, though Im not sure what the exact reference is. 

Friday, May 16 
UNCANNY X-MEN #429 
One day. It must be more than a few weeks after UX 422. It is some time after UX 406 (1-21). One early morning, Nightcrawler inexplicably jets off from Westchester and as Xavier prepares to send a team after him, he has an altercation with Juggernaut and a restrained Polaris spouts off at Annie. Several hours later, the X-Men arrive at Isla des Demonas, where they find Kurt participating in a strange ritual. We see a full moon and green grass and trees at Xaviers and bathing suit weather off Florida. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #430 
The same day as UX 429. It must be more than a few weeks after UX 422. Sammy is abused by his father at his home in Vancouver, where we see green trees. Xorn wants to put Carter in his special class (and reveals some Magneto-like thoughts). Xavier and Annie explore Lornas mind to find the reason for her recent behavior. The X-Men are attacked by demonic creatures as they try to rescue Kurt from Isla des Demonas, Iceman is blown to bits, and the group is engulfed in a powerful telepathic blast. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #431 
The same day as UX 429. Polaris shows Xavier and Annie her experience in Genosha. Juggernaut and Northstar jet to Vancouver (where we see green trees) to see Sammy. The X-Men battle demon-like creatures. Mystique emerges from Abyss dimensional hole, having been trapped in there since UX 406. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #432 
The same day as UX 431. Given Xorn has not yet revealed is identity in UX 430 and Xavier is still walking here, this issue must occur before X 146; indeed, since Scott is still with the X-Men, this issue must occur before X 139 (1-20). 
UNCANNY X-MEN #433 
The same day as UX 432. Juggernauts battle with Alpha Flight results in the accidental injury of Sammys mother. Nightcrawler learns from Azazel the truth behind his teleportation power, and when Xavier, Annie, and Lorna arrive at La Isla des Demonas to search for Carter, Polaris opens a portal to Azazels dimension. Green trees in Vancouver. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #434 
The same day as UX 433. It is three days before UX 435 (1-18). Seeing what his battle has wrought, Juggernaut gives up the fight with Alpha Flight. Iceman re-forms, Kurt battles Azazel, and the X-Men, Carter, Mystique, Abyss, and Kiwi Black escape from Azazels dimension, with Polaris help. Given Xorn has not yet revealed is identity in UX 430 and Xavier is still walking there, this issue must occur before X 146; indeed, since Scott is still with the X-Men in UX 429, this issue must occur before X 139 (1-20). Mystique must appear here before MYS 1 (9-23). Green grass and trees in Vancouver and Westchester. 

Saturday, May 17 
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (22p3-23) 
One day. Cannonball calls Storm to Paris, where we see green trees. Storm wears the miniskirt we saw in XX 23. He accepts her offer to join the X-Treme team. 
X-STATIX #15 (3-11) 
One day, some years after XS 15-FB (1-2). As random sniper attacks claim lives throughout the country, Henrietta Hunter takes a break in the Caribbean after all the chat-shows and merchandising deals. X-Statix appear on the scene to kill her, but Lacuna makes the team think twice about that course of action. Green trees in Florida. 

Sunday, May 18 
X-STATIX #15 (12-18) 
Perhaps the day after XS 15 (3-11). X-Statix hope to rid themselves of Henrietta while on a mission in Afghanistan, but Phat ends up saving her life and El Guapo loses his legs. 

Monday, May 19 
X-STATIX #15 (19-20) 
Perhaps the day after XS 15 (12-18). The random shootings continue and Henrietta decides to stop the killing. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #435 (1-18) 
One day, three days after UX 434. Among the recent events Xavier mentions in this issue is a student uprising, so this story must occur after X 138 (1-6). Juggernaut is incarcerated at a high-tech Canadian facility and Jennifer Walters reviews his case as his attorney. As counsel confers with Xavier (sans wheelchair), Kurt, Warren, Bobby, and Paige, the Rhino (being subjected to some kind of experiment here sometime after his apprehension in PPSM2 50) attempts to bust out of the facility. In the melee that ensues, Cain is accidentally released from his bonds and battles and defeats Rhino, then he passes up an opportunity to flee and instead surrenders to a facility guard. Green grass and trees in Vancouver. 

Tuesday, May 20 
UNCANNY X-MEN #435 (19-20) 
Probably the day after UX 435 (1-18), judging by the fact that people from pages 1-18 are now wearing different clothes. Cains surrender and the situation with the Rhino result in a reduced sentence for Cain and his release from the Canadian facility. Cain and Jennifer become friendly. 
X-STATIX #15 (21-22) 
Perhaps the day after XS 15 (19-20). At a press conference, Henrietta announces that she will stop the random killings by accepting the position of Secretary of Homeland Defense. Green trees in Washington, DC. 

Wednesday, May 21 
UNCANNY X-MEN #435 (21-23) 
The morning after UX 435 (19-20). Cain and Jen are in bed after having spent the night together, presumably in Vancouver, where we see green grass and trees. A figure in Juggernaut gear appears outside their room. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #436 
The same day as UX 435 (21-23). Cain and Jen battle the ersatz Juggernaut, who turns out to be the animal-torturing boy from XU 44. Attorneys debate the fate of Juggernaut and when Sammy Pares mother testifies on Cains behalf, Juggernauts sentence is reduced and he is extradited. Given that A3 65 leads to Jens mass destruction of property in A3 73-75 and the fact that she holds that kind of destruction against Juggernaut in UX 435, this story probably occurs before A3 65. Because Xavier is without his wheelchair here, and because the list of things he relates as overwhelming in UX 435 does not include Magnetos destruction of the school, this story must occur before X 142. Green grass and trees in Vancouver. 

Thursday, May 22 
NEW X-MEN #138 (10-14) 
A Thursday. Xorn helps Quentin Quire cast off his physical body and achieve another plane of existence; it is not known how long Quire may have spent at Xaviers in a catatonic state; it is presumed that this is the Thursday of the week following X 138 (7-9), but isnt necessarily so. Xavier notes that the school will be closing for the summer in exactly six days  this may be the date that all students who attend Xaviers during the regular academic year should be gone; as we see in NM2, the school does remain open for relatively few students in the summer. He also notes that after the break, he will step down as headmaster. Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
WEAPON X v2 #18  FB 
One day, several weeks before WX 18. Cyclops notes that Cable recently informed the X-Men that Neverland is a myth, following WX2 13. Logan tells the X-Men that its time to take down Weapon X and that the way to do it is to plant a mole in the organization. Among those gathered is Xavier, who is sitting, but not in a wheelchair. Chamber volunteers to be the mole. 
WEAPON X v2 #15 
Perhaps the same day as WX2 18-FB. Xaviers school is still standing and Cyclops is with the X-Men, so this story must occur before X 138 (16-23). Chambers act to get him noticed by Weapon X goes into effect: he causes trouble in a Manhattan bar and the X-Men (Cyclops, Archangel, Husk, Iceman, and Wolverine) try to talk him down, but when Jono lashes out at them, they subdue him and hand him over to the authorities. Hours later, Brent Jackson shows up in Chambers prison cell to offer him a place in Weapon X. We see green grass and trees and warm picnic weather at Xaviers, but we also see autumn leaves, which may be topical. 
X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #1 
One night. Sage breaks into the New York office of a former shareholder in the Hellfire Club to retrieve a dossier about her. Green trees in New York. Full moon. 

Friday, May 23 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #500 
The same day as ASM2 58. Led by Strange, Spidey battles his way through time to end up moments before the arrival of Dormammu and saves the day, helping the heroes drive the Mindless Ones back to their dimension. Reed is not disfigured, so this story should occur before FF3 68 (1p1). Cyclops probably appears here before X 138 (16-23). It is Peters birthday (so this story should occur at the same time of year as S-M 21), and Strange gives him a present  five minutes to speak to Uncle Ben, whos been snatched out of time. We see a full moon, and M.J. mentions the moonlight specifically. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #1 (10-25) 
One school day. Rejected on her sixteenth birthday by her father and her classmates, Sofia Mantega destroys one of her fathers supermarkets and is thrown in jail. Dani Moonstar shows up to take Sofia to Xaviers, which is publicly known as a school for mutants with bad publicity, a clue that this segment occurs after the riot in X 138 (1-6). It is clear that Dani does not live at Xaviers, but rather in Colorado. It is a Friday in May. We see green grass and trees in Boulder. 
NEW X-MEN #138 (15) 
The day after X 138 (10-14), a Friday. Emma Frost goes clothes shopping with Angel. According to X 140, this segment occurs a few days before X 139 (21-22). 

Saturday, May 24 
NEW X-MEN #138 (16-23) 
The day after X 138 (15), a Saturday. Given Scotts presence in WX 15 and W/CA 4 (17-21), those stories must occur before this segment. We see a prize-giving ceremony at Xaviers  this is a year-end ceremony that probably occurs between the end of the spring session and the beginning of the summer session shown in NM2 2. Angel informs Beak that shes pregnant with his child; this revelation so soon after their apparent first sexual encounter in X 136 (1-21) is an indication that Angels physiology is radically different from a normal humans; this is confirmed by Beaks statement in X 141 that there is a life cycle of, like, only five days between the sex and the birth, but this doesnt mean that Angels pregnancy lasts only that long  it cant be less than five days after X 136 (1-21), given the other temporal references in this run of issues. That night, Jean Grey returns to Xaviers with Dust, who she may have retrieved after Dust spent some time in India after X 133. Jean finds Scott and Emma in a compromising situation; this segment probably occurs after ASM 500. That Jean is fetching mutants for Xaviers may be a clue that this segment occurs before NM2 2, where Dani gets the job of recruiter. Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
NEW X-MEN #139 (1-20) 
The same night as X 138 (16-23). An angry Jean mucks around with Emmas mind and the X-Men grow concerned about Jeans Phoenix power. Cyclops takes off. The Stepford Cuckoos state that school is over for the summer, implying that, while the school itself is to close on the upcoming Wednesday, classes are already over. We see green grass and trees at Xaviers. 

Monday, May 26: Memorial Day 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #2 
One day shortly after NM2 1 (10-25)  at least long enough for a train ride from Colorado to New York; it is unlikely that NM2 1 (10-25) occurred yesterday, as noted in this issue. NM2 2-FB is noted as having occurred last year, although this may be a reference to last school year. Dani and Sofia arrive at Xaviers, where they meet Professor X, who notes that it is the start of the summer session and that some students have gone home for the summer. This is an indication that this issue occurs after the prize-giving ceremony in X 138 (16-23). The fact that some students remain for classes appears to contradict the statement in X 138 (10-14) that the school would close for the summer. Xavier is still here, apparently before the time he planned to leave the school, as noted in X 138 (10-14). Dani is no longer a teenager, but it wasnt long ago that she was. Dani arranges for Sofia to room with Laurie Collins and agrees to be Xaviers recruiter  presumably after Jeans assumption of that role through X 138 (16-23). Northstar appears here. Green grass and trees and jacket weather at Xaviers. 

Tuesday, May 27 
NEW X-MEN #139 (21-22) 
One night. According to X 140, this segment occurs a few days after X 138 (15). Beast finds Emmas diamond body smashed to pieces. 

Wednesday, May 28 
NEW X-MEN #140 (1-14) 
The day after X 139 (21-22). It is sometime after XX 23 (17-22). Summer vacation is cancelled until further notice, while Bishop and Sage are called in to investigate Emma Frosts murder. That summer vacation reference may be for the benefit of those students who havent yet left for the summer; I have summer classes actually having just started (in NM2 2) by this time. Late this day, the Stepford Cuckoos note that school ought to have closed for summer by now (at least for those who dont take summer classes), so it is likely that this is the day the school was scheduled to close, six days after X 138 (10-14). Scott is still absent and Nightcrawler is here. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. 

Thursday, May 29 
NEW X-MEN #140 (15-22) 
The day after X 140 (1-14). Bishop and Sage continue their investigation, and Angels brood of larvae are discovered. 
NEW X-MEN #141 
The same day as X 140 (15-22). Angels brood hatches. The X-Men discover that Angel and Beak were set up to take the fall for Emmas murder by Esme and a partner whose identity remains unknown, as Esme mind-wipes Bishop and Sage to escape. Phoenix fuses Emmas diamond pieces back together, allowing Emmas disembodied spirit to return to her body. The missing Scott is now the prime suspect. Although not shown, presumably the lockdown at Xaviers is lifted at this point, and Xavier may relieve Bishop and Sage of their services. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. Esme makes another reference to summer. 

Friday, May 30 
ALIAS #28 
The same day as ALIAS 27 (19-22). As Cage and Jessica officially become a couple after this issue, this story must occur before SECWAR 1 (1-3). Jessica faces Killgrave, who tells her that Scotts condition is imagined by her at his instigation. As Killgrave proceeds to order Manhattanites to kill one another, Jean Grey appears to Jessica in a psychic projection and tells her about the psychic defense trigger she planted in Jessicas mind. When the Avengers arrive on the scene and Killgrave orders Jessica to kill Cap, she activates the trigger and beats up Killgrave. As the defeated villain is carried away, Jessica breaks up with Scott, as she is three months pregnant with a child that could have been Scotts (thus its at least three months after ALIAS 14?), but isnt. That night, the Bugle proclaims Jessica a hero, Cage confesses his feelings for Jessica, and she informs him that shes pregnant with his child. Warbird is with the Avengers and shes not in the new costume she adopted in A3 65, so this story must occur before A3 65. This means that the new costumes worn by Jack of Hearts and She-Hulk are seen here first, before A3 65. Jan wears the costume seen in A3 71. This also means that Subbys appearance with the Avengers here must occur after his departure from the team in A3 61; it is not known why he would have returned for this appearance. Jean notes that we have our hands full where my actual body is; this may be a reference to the continuing investigation of Emma Frosts murder after X 141; Jeans very presence here indicates that this story occurs before X . Green grass and trees in New York. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #3 (1-19) 
One day. While Magma lays in a coma (where shes been since just after UX 423), Dani recruits a mutant with decaying power in Atlanta, where we see green grass and trees. School is in session, both at Xaviers (where Beast is teaching as part of summer session) and at a public high school (its not summer vacation yet, and it cant be a holiday), where student Kevin Ford hasnt reported for the last two days. There is a reference to finals at the high school, and Dani claims to represent a summer program. We see short sleeves at Xaviers. 
X-TREME X-MEN #25 
One day. It is probably a weekday during the college year. Given Kurts conversation with Logan in W3 6, it appears that W3 6 must occur before this issue. In freeing Stryker from incarceration, Deathstrike makes it appear that Stryker was killed in an airplane explosion by the X-Men. We see snow in the Rockies and green trees in Kentucky, where Cannonball has invited Storm, Bishop, Sage, and Wolverine (sans goatee, perhaps after X 141). The X-Men investigate the site of the plane crash. Kitty sees her school psychologist, and that night, she is abducted from the Belles of Hell by Deathstrike and Stryker. 
X-TREME X-MEN #26 
The same day as XX 25. The X-Treme team battle Strykers troops in the snowy Rockies and take captives as they try to figure out what Stryker is up to. Stryker tries to break Kittys will, but fails. Deathstrike is forced to try to kill Stryker by the man who runs Mount Haven, who views Stryker as a threat. Stryker escapes with Kitty in hand. 
X-TREME X-MEN #27 (1-13) 
The same night as XX 26. Shadowcat phases cross-country as the earth as it spins on its axis, causing Storm to lose control in the Rockies, creating a blizzard and undoing all the good work....accomplished these past months in physical therapy. Waning crescent moon. 

Saturday, May 31 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #3 (20-22) 
The day after NM2 3 (1-19). Kevin Ford is examined at Xaviers and Xavier reveals the comatose Magma to Dani, who is wearing the same clothes she wore the previous day  an indication that this scene may occur in the wee hours of the morning after NM2 3 (1-19), technically the next day. 
X-TREME X-MEN #27 (14-23) 
The day after XX 27 (1-13). Kitty finds herself in Mt. Haven, where we see green grass and trees and warm weather. 
X-TREME X-MEN #28 
The same day as XX 27 (14-23). Stryker and Deathstrike defeat Kitty and the X-Treme team at Mt. Haven, where we see green trees and warm weather. Cannonball vows to save the day. 
X-TREME X-MEN #29 
The same day as XX 28. Cannonball fights Deathstrike after she seemingly kills Logan, then he faces a brainwashed Storm. Bishop faces a brainwashed Sage. Stryker shows Kitty the truth behind Mt. Haven, then strikes her and Reverend Paul down. Green grass and trees and warm weather in Washington state. 
X-TREME X-MEN #30 
The same day as XX 29. Logan recovers and many of Mt. Havens nannite-infested residents die when Paul is out of commission. Stryker and Kitty discover that Paul is a cybernetic sentient and Stryker sacrifices his freedom to keep Paul contained. That night in Chicago, the X-Men hang at the Belles of Hell and Kitty considers running for alderman in a municipal election this fall. Green grass and trees in Washington state. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #4 (2-11) 
One day. This segment may well occur the same day as NM2 3 (20-22). Xavier sends Dani (in a change of clothing from NM2 3) to Chicago to recruit David Alleyne, who turns out to be an acquaintance of Karma. (It must be after the lockdown from X 140-141 has been lifted.) Shan graduates from the University of Chicago, where we see light clothing and a commencement ceremony. Xavier checks up on Magma, who is still in a coma. Kevin Ford is given a clean bill of health; it may be quite a while after his arrival at Xaviers, given the comment, Its about time we got you into class. Green grass and trees and light clothing at Xaviers. Shan notes that summer session starts Monday. 

Sunday, June 1 
X-STATIX #16 (1-3) 
One day, long enough after XS 15 (12-18) for El Guapo to recover from the loss of his legs. As the random killings continue, Henrietta introduces new X-Statix costumes. Her photo is taken for the Time Magazine cover seen in XS 16 (4-). 

Monday, June 2 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #4 (12-24) 
The Monday after NM2 4 (2-11). It is the first day of class during summer session at the University of Chicago. David is outed as a mutant and decides to accompany Dani back to Xaviers. Shan and her siblings decide to join them. Green grass and trees in Chicago. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #5 (1-4) 
Probably the same night as NM2 4 (12-24). Donald Pierce has a meeting of the Reavers, now a group of mutant-hating humans. Among their recruits is Josh Foley. Sofias father is in New York on business and wants no contact with his daughter. 

Tuesday, June 3 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #5 (5-24) 
The day after NM2 5 (1-4). Logan instructs a class in self- defense at the Institute, while Xavier offers Shan a job there. Shan suggests that her siblings get the summer off before returning to school and Xavier notes that things are fairly quiet during the summer. Dani and Shan take Sofia, Laurie, Kevin, and David into Manhattan and the four kids are lured into an ambush by the Reavers, with Laurie getting critically wounded. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #6 
The same day as NM2 5. Josh uses his healing power to save Laurie and Shan arrives and chases off the Reavers. Kevin uses his death touch on Pierce and Dani stops him from killing the cyborg by using her illusion power. Pierce is taken into custody and the kids return to Xaviers, where we see green grass and trees. Josh returns home, but is spurned by friends and family as a mutant and, with nowhere else to go, arrives at Xaviers. Frightened by his actions, Kevin leaves Xaviers and Dani decides to quit, branding herself a failure as a teacher. But Shan, Xavier, and the remaining kids convince her to stay. Since Xavier is walking here, this segment must occur before X 146 and thus probably before X 142. 

Wednesday, June 4 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #7  FB 
One school day at Xaviers, sometime between NM2 6 and NM2 7 (1-15). Josh Foley attends classes taught by Warren Worthington, Dani Moonstar, and Shan Coy Manh. Xaviers school is whole and functioning, so this story must occur before X 142, the beginning of the story that leads to the destruction of the school. 
X-STATIX #16 (4-7) 
One day, long enough after XS 16 (1-3) for Time Magazine to publish Henriettas photo. Henrietta hopes to stumble upon the random killers. 

Thursday, June 5 
X-STATIX #16 (8-9) 
One day. Henrietta tries to get the dead to help her find the random killers, but Dead Girl blocks her attempt. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #7 (1-15) 
One school day at Xaviers, where we see green grass and autumn leaves (which must be topical). This segment occurs some days before XX 34 and during the week before NM2 8 (1-5). Josh Foley writes home about his life at Xaviers (he mentions classes with Hank McCoy, Emma Frost, and Tom Corsi). He notes that he hasnt written since coming to Xaviers (implying a while has passed) and that he saved Lauries life this summer, more clues that some time has passed since NM2 6, but given Xaviers chronology, this story is more likely to occur very shortly after NM2 6. Josh uses his healing power to jump-start Magmas brain, lifting her out of her coma. Unfortunately, when she awakens she blasts a big hole in the school and runs away. 

Friday, June 6 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #7 (16-18) 
The day after NM2 7 (1-15). It is two weeks before NM2 7 (19-22). With Jean and Northstar present, Xavier gives Josh detention for his reckless act of the day before. We see green grass and the last of autumn leaves falling from bare trees at Xaviers. 
X-STATIX #16 (10-14) 
One day. The random killings have been going on for a few weeks, and Henrietta is held accountable for the lack of progress in apprehending the killers. Lacuna makes a pass at Guy and is rebuffed, then she receives documents that would destroy Spike Freemans reputation. 
X-TREME X-MEN #31 (1-2) 
One night. In Los Angeles, Cutter, Porous, Dervish and company cause a car accident in which a girl named Marie is seriously injured. Mention is made of the state championship for cheerleading. 

Saturday, June 7 
X-STATIX #16 (15-22) 
One day. Lacuna tells Guy about the documents she received and how they would implicate not only Spike, but Edie as well. Guy confronts Spike about it and ends up killing him. Guy catches up to Lacuna, who gets shot by a sniper working for Mister Code. Green grass and trees in Washington, DC and California, where it is warm enough for outdoor swimming. 
X-STATIX #17 (1-9) 
The same day as XS 16 (15-22). Because Henrietta is Secretary of Homeland Defense, it is likely that this story occurs before IM3 73, the storyline that leads to Tony Starks bid for Secretary of Defense. Orphan catches the sniper, who kills himself. X-Statix ports to the law offices where they try to steal incriminating documents linking them to illegal arms and drug trades and other crimes. 
X-TREME X-MEN #31 (3-22) 
Probably the day after XX 31 (1-2). A Genoshan survivor slays a group of black marketeers in east Africa, and Marie recovers in a Los Angeles hospital. Val Cooper gives a presentation on the mutant threat at the presidential ranch in Texas, where Storm and Remy are undercover and we see green grass and trees and a barbecue; it is unclear whether the president appears here before or after X 150 (1-31). On assignment for the L.A. Division of X-Corp, Bishop and Sage deal with a dangerous mutant, then the duo check in on Rogue and the new life shes adopted in L.A., where we see green grass and trees as well. That night, they go to a club and meet up with Sam, Lila Cheney, and an anti-mutant terrorist with a bomb. 
X-TREME X-MEN #32 (1-17) 
The same night as XX 31 (3-22). This segment is referred to as having occurred the other night in XX 33 (5-13). Sam removes the terrorist from the club, then takes off with Lila. Rogue apprehends the terrorist, Marie Dancanto. Storm and Remy blow their cover at the presidential ranch. Green grass and trees in L.A and Texas. Full moon. 
X-TREME X-MEN #33 (14-16) 
The same night as XX 32 (1-17). At the presidential compound, Storm outlines her plan for diffusing the growing rift between human and mutant. As it picks up right from the scene in Texas in XX 32, this scene must occur out of sequence from the rest of this issue because more time passes in the Marie Dancanto storyline. From the conversation, it appears obvious that this segment occurs before X 142, the storyline that leads to Magnetos victory. Green trees and warm weather in Texas. Full moon. 

Sunday, June 8 
X-TREME X-MEN #32 (18-23) 
The morning after XX 32 (1-17). Marie Dancanto tells Rogue her story of hatred for mutants. 
X-STATIX #17 (10-22) 
Probably the day after XS 17 (1-9). The X-Statix scandal breaks and the team decides to go after Mister Code to redeem themselves. With help from the dead Spike Freeman, the team locates Code and defeats him. A boy wishes for a scooter for Christmas in his prayers, but this doesnt necessarily mean that the holiday is approaching. 
X-STATIX #18 (1-4) 
The same day as XS 17 (10-22). Codes body explodes, killing Henrietta and Phat. Henriettas record company decides to exploit her death by releasing a new CD called Back from the Dead. 

Monday, June 9 
X-TREME X-MEN #33 (1, 3-4) 
Perhaps the day after XX 32 (18-23)  enough time has to have passed for groups of people to organize support of and opposition to Marie Dancanto, who appears in court to plead not guilty to her attempted suicide bombing in XX 32 (1-17). 
MYSTIQUE #1 (1-8) 
One night. It must be a weeknight, as Charles Xavier appears on Nightline. Jean is at Xaviers. We learn that Xavier has covert operatives in the world and that one has been killed on a mission. 

Tuesday, June 10 
MYSTIQUE #1 (9-23) 
The early morning after MYS 1 (1-8). At 2:54 AM, Xavier arrives at Forges apartment in Baltimore to ask him to find Mystique. From the dialogue, it appears that Xavier and Forge have been out of touch for quite a while; perhaps they had no opportunity to connect at the wedding in UX 425 (17-23); in any event, that likely places this story, through MYS 6 (16-22), before W/CA 1-FB. At 3:12 AM, Mystique is on a mission in Washington DC. She must appear here following the Draco storyline in UX 433. 
MYSTIQUE #2 
The same early morning as MYS 1 (9-23). It is a few months before MYS 11-FB. At 3:27 AM, Forge discovers the whereabouts of Mystique, who is captured by government agents at 3:29 AM. At 4:36 AM, the captive Mystique awakens in a DHS flying justice unit, where she faces Johnny Kitano, a mutant whose mission is to eliminate mutant threats to the government. Mystique is rescued by Xavier, who is disguised as Magneto. Full moon. MYSTIQUE #3 
The same day as MYS 2. Xavier and Forge send Mystique to Cuba on a clandestine mission to destroy two mutant-killing robots. Once there, she meets her handler, Shortpack. Green vegetation in New York. 
MYSTIQUE #4 
The same day as MYS 3. Mystique insinuates her way to Luis Disovil, the man who purchased the Sentinels and is conducting experiments on Cuban mutants. She assumes his identity, only to face a band of freedom fighters, led by Lazaro Rivera. 
MYSTIQUE #5 
The same night as MYS 4. Mystique sides with the freedom fighters and battles Disovils soldiers. She finds the kidnaped children, only to learn that she must kill Lazaros little sister Evangelina to stop the Sentinels. 
MYSTIQUE #6 (1-15) 
The same night as MYS 5. Lazaro kills Evangelina and kills himself. Mystique, the rebels, and the freed mutants evacuate Disovils base before the Sentinels destoy it. Mystique reports back to Shortpack. 
X-TREME X-MEN #33 (5-13) 
Perhaps the day after XX 33 (3-4). XX 32 (1-17) is referred to as having occurred the other night. Rogue has a nightmare early this morning, then the X-Corp lawyer shows up to try to talk Rogue and Sam (who has returned with Lila), who he believes to be baseline human, into selling Rogues home. Lila ports Bishop to New York. 
X-TREME X-MEN #33 (17-23) 
The same night as XX 33 (5-13). Rogue and Sam attack Cutter, Porous, Dervish and company at their beach hangout while Sage arrives at X-Corp Los Angeles, which she discovers is the employer of the lawyer. Full moon. 

Wednesday, June 11 
MYSTIQUE #6 (16-22) 
The morning after MYS 6 (1-15). At 12:31 am, Mystique is asked to be a double agent by a man in a bar in Santiago de Cuba. Later that morning (the next morning), Mystique arrives at her safehouse in Brooklyn, where Xavier congratulates her on a job well done. Green vegetation in Brooklyn. 
X-TREME X-MEN #34 
Probably the day after XX 33 (17-23). It is some days after NM2 7 (1-15). Magma arrives in L.A. and she and Sam visit Roberto at X-Corp. The charges against Cutter, Porous, Dervish, and company are dismissed in court, an indication that its a weekday. That night, Rogue fights Revenant and Manacle and tails them back to X-Corp, where she confronts Roberto. Green trees in southern California. Full moon. 
X-TREME X-MEN #35 (1-22) 
The same night as XX 34. Roberto uses X-Corp employees Skitz and Stringfellow to keep Rogue and Sam occupied while he and Amara investigate X-Corps link to the shady deals in Valle Soleada. Elias Bogan, who is calling the shots behind the scenes, sends Cutter, Porous and Dervish against Rogue and Sam, but they are defeated. Vazhin informs Storm that the government has provisionally accepted her proposal to form the XSE strike force, but first she and Remy must infiltrate a mutant gladiator arena run by Tullemore Voge in Tokyo. Green grass and trees in California and Texas. Full moon. 

Thursday, June 12 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #8 (1-5) 
One day, during the week after NM2 7 (1-15)  that places this segment before NM2 7 (19-22). We see bare trees and green grass at Xaviers, where the Institute is preparing for Parents Week, apparently for parents of the summer session students. 
X-STATIX #18 (5-21) 
One day. It must be several days after XS 19 (1-4). Phat is buried. The deceased Henrietta fatally curses all those who start to sing her newly released song, and one of the victims is El Guapo. The team helps Henrietta get her revenge on those responsible for her first death so she can rest in peace and lift the curse. Green grass and trees. 
X-TREME X-MEN #35 (23) 
One day, shortly after XX 35 (1-22). Roberto holds a press conference, Marie apologizes to Rogue, and Sage and Bishop look into Elias Bogan. 
X-TREME X-MEN #36  FB (2-6) 
The same evening as XX 35 (23). It is several days before XX 36. Ororo and Remy return to California and reunite with the rest of the X-Treme team, and Storm informs them they are now XSE  mutant police. She also informs the team shes going solo to infiltrate Voges Tokyo arena. Green trees and warm weather in southern California. 

Friday, June 13 
HULK/WOLVERINE: SIX HOURS #1 
One day. On board a plane to Canada, fugitive Bruce Banner encounters a boy named Kyle who has been poisoned by a snake, and the prospect of turning the plane around for medical help forces the hand of drug dealers Sid and Whitie. Their actions lead to Banners change into the Hulk, who sends the plane plummeting. Banner has a full head of hair and is a fugitive, so this story must occur sometime after H3 54. Green grass and trees and coat weather in Canada. Since Kyle is on his way to a summer camp, it is likely June. 
HULK/WOLVERINE: SIX HOURS #2 
The same day as HW:SH 1. After the plane crash, Banner encounters Logan and they team up to save Kyle. A crime boss sends Shredder after Sid and Whitie, who have taken Kyle and pilot Margie White hostage in an attempt to find the buyer for their drugs. Green grass and trees in Canada. 
HULK/WOLVERINE: SIX HOURS #3 
The same day as HW:SH 2. It is two years after H/W:SH 3-FB. Whitie dies in a vehicle crash. Skinner kills Sid and comes close to killing Margie and Kyle when Logan and Banner arrive on the scene. It is a time of year in which sunset arrives before 6:15 PM, but that conflicts with the summer camp reference in HW:SH 1. Green grass and trees in Canada. 
HULK/WOLVERINE: SIX HOURS #4 
The same day as HW:SH 3. Publication order would place this issue before W/CA 1. Shredder is killed and Logan and Banner save Kyle with a coral snake and a transfusion from the Hulk. 
X-TREME X-MEN #36  FB (7-36) 
One night shortly after XX 36-FB (2-6). Storm meets up with Yukio in Tokyo and they infiltrate Voges mutant gladiator arena, where they meet Masato Koga, who knows their identities. Koga tricks Storm into entering the arena battle between Silkworm and Musclehead, only to become the exalted champ. Full moon. 
X-TREME X-MEN #37  FB (2-15) 
The same night as XX 36-FB (7-36). After tasting victory in the arena, Storm snatches Yukio and flees back to Yukios apartment, where they talk about the state of affairs between humans and mutants. 

Saturday, June 14 
X-TREME X-MEN #37  FB (16-36) 
The day after XX 37-FB (2-15). Strong Guy shows up at Yukios apartment and tries to dissuade Storm from joining the Fellowship of the Arena, in which he has been involved since X-Factor broke up. Storm does not heed his advice and joins the Fellowship, only to face Callisto. 
X-TREME X-MEN #38  FB (2-28) 
The same day as XX 37-FB (16-36). After Storm fights Callisto, it is revealed that Masque runs the show at the Arena and that she has broken Callistos will, just as she intends to do with Storm. 
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA #1  FB 
One day. Given that Xavier and Forge are together here, this story must occur after MYS 6 (16-22). Beast and Forge examine a mutant computer chip in the X-Mens communications systems and Forge takes the chip to the Avengers for further examination, but he is ambushed by the Contingency, which takes the chip. Green grass and trees in New York. 
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA #1 
The same day as W/CA 1-FB. Forge arrives at Avengers Embassy, where he tells his tale to Cap and Warbird. Xavier (BTS) sends Wolverine after the stolen chip and Logan finds the Contingency in the sewers under Manhattan. Cap and Warbird arrive to find Logan shot up. 
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA #2 
The same day as W/CA 1. Cap, Warbird, and a powerless Wolverine battle the Contingency in Manhattans sewers, and Logan is left for dead, his healing power neutralized. 
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA #3 
The same day as W/CA 2. Warbird gets Logan to the SHIELD helicarrier for medical attention while Cap goes after the Contingency, who get away. SHIELD finds a way to restore Logans healing factor and save him from death. 
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA #4 (1-16) 
The same night as W/CA 3. Warbird has her classic costume here, so this story must occur before A3 65. The heroes locate the Contingency making a deal with AIM for the mutant chip. In the ensuing battle, Logan retrieves the chip and guts Rapture. Full moon. 

Sunday, June 15 
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA #4 (17-21) 
The morning after W/CA 4 (1-16). Given that the Xavier is standing and the Institute is intact and operating, this issue must occur before X 142. Logan reports back to Xavier, Forge, and Beast, and someone who Im hoping is Iceman, not Cyclops. Rapture drops in on her incarcerated teammates, noting that her suits abilities are now fused to her nervous system. Cap confronts Sharon Carter about the Contingency program. 
X-TREME X-MEN #38  FB (29-36) 
Probably the day after XX 38-FB (2-28). In the Arena, Storm fights Paradise, disguised as Yukio, but Ororo refuses to kill her. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #8 (6-9) 
One day during Parents Week at Xaviers. Given the presence of the Parents Week sign, up since NM2 8 (1-5), this segment probably occurs before NM2 7 (19-22). A standing Xavier greets parents. Bare trees, green shrubs and green grass at Xaviers. 

Monday, June 16 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #8 (10-24) 
The day after NM2 8 (6-9). It is a few days before NM2 9. Sofia gets into another argument with her visiting father. Julian Keller switches advisors from Northstar to Emma Frost. David decides to stay at Xaviers. Autumn trees (the leaves have apparently risen back onto the trees) and green grass. 
X-TREME X-MEN #39  FB (2-18) 
Probably the night of the day after XX 38-FB (29-36). Storm and Callisto battle four challengers in the GWAs London arena, then Tullamore Voge arranges to buy Storm from Masque. Yukio and Guido talk Koga into staging a rebellion. Full moon. 

Tuesday, June 17 
X-TREME X-MEN #39  FB (23-24p1) 
Probably the day after XX 39-FB (21-18). Storm and Callisto fight challengers in the GWAs Hong Kong arena. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #55 (17p2-22) 
One day, probably months after DD2 55 (15-17), long enough for Maya to become a noted figure in the New York arts world. Daredevil does not have a goatee here. Maya (wearing a fur coat) and Daredevil meet on a rooftop. We see blowing leaves. 

Wednesday, June 18 
X-TREME X-MEN #39  FB (24p2-24p3) 
Probably the day after XX 39-FB (23-24). Storm and Callisto fight challengers in the GWAs Rio de Janiero arena. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #7 (19-22) 
One day, two weeks after NM2 7 (16-18), and so after NM2 8 (1-5). The Parents Week sign is not up, so this segment probably occurs after NM2 8 (10-24). Joshs parents arrive at Xaviers, but instead of retrieving him, they name the school his guardian and leave without him. Xavier is still standing. Trees are now bare, with the last leaves falling from them, but the grass at Xaviers is still green. 

Thursday, June 19 
X-TREME X-MEN #39  FB (24p4-25p2) 
Probably the day after XX 39-FB (24). Storm and Callisto fight challengers in the GWAs Riyadh arena. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #9 
One day, a few days after NM2 8 (10-24). It is a school day at Xaviers during what must be the summer semester, and tomorrow is referred to as a school day as well. After stopping Avalanche in Manhattan, a de-powered Rahne Sinclair arrives at Xaviers, and she gathers Sofia, Laurie, David, and Josh to investigate a mutant girl named Surge, whose powers are out of control. Havok and Nightcrawler cameo. Someone wonders where the Avengers are. Green grass, bare trees, and long-sleeve shirts (but no jackets) in Westchester. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #10 
The same night as NM2 9. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #437 
One summah day. The Xavier Institute is not destroyed, so this story must occur before X 142. Tired of being pushed around by Abe Cabot, Jeb Guthrie provokes Cabot into a fight in which Guthrie can let loose with his new powers in self defense. Sheriff Pete shoots Guthrie when he refuses to stand down. Paige is called, and she and Warren head to Cumberland, KY to be with her family. Meanwhile, musician Josh Guthrie performs at a local restaurant where he enchants waitress Julia Cabot. School is out and we see green grass and trees in Kentucky and Westchester. We see the bottom portion of what appears to be a full moon. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #438 
The same night as UX 437. As Josh and Julia rekindle their feelings for each other, the Guthrie/Cabot feud escalates into an armed altercation at the Guthrie farm. Later, as the Cabots plan to kill the Guthries with accomplice Sheriff Pete, the X-Men (Archangel, Husk, Nightcrawler, and Wolverine) arrive at the Guthrie farm. Green grass and trees in Kentucky. Full moon. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #439 
The same night as UX 438. It is eight years after UX 439-FB. Julia Cabot (and presumably Josh Guthrie) is eighteen. Julia and Josh rendezvous as Chester Cabot plans to use some abandoned armor to kill the Guthries. Warren apologizes to Logan for his past animosity. Green grass and trees in Kentucky. Full moon. 
MYSTIQUE #7 (1-10) 
One night. Mystique and Shortpack steal information from the palace of North Koreas Kim Jong Il. Full moon. 

Friday, June 20 
MYSTIQUE #7 (11-21) 
The morning after MYS 7 (1-10). At Mystiques Brooklyn safehouse, Xavier tells her that the North Koreans were planning to steal bigpox from Harrison Taylor, a scientist in South Africa, her next destination. On her way out at JFK Airport, Mystique again encounters Shepard, the man she met at the Cuban bar, who offers her another chance to be a double agent; she refuses and the man reports to his boss, the Quiet Man. Xavier is standing in this segment (even though its a telepathic projection, Mystique had to ask if he were real), so this story must occur before X 146 (and thus before X 142); it is likely before Xavier announces his intention to step down as headmaster in X 138 (10-14). Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #440 
The morning after UX 439. Warren explains the reason for his behavior toward Paige and after he apologizes, they profess their love for each other. The armored Chester Cabot catches Josh with Julia and blasts Josh. A jealous Sheriff Pete threatens Lucinda Guthrie and Kurt takes him down. Paige is nineteen. Green grass and trees in Kentucky. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #441 (1-23p3) 
The same day as UX 440. Believing Josh dead, Julia drowns herself, but Josh heals and despairs over Julias death. Chester Cabot attempts to murder the Guthries; Kurt teleports them to safety but fails to save Lucindas boyfriend. Sheriff Pete kills Cabot and is himself killed in the process. Green grass and trees in Kentucky. 
X-TREME X-MEN #36 (1) 
X-TREME X-MEN #37 (1) 
X-TREME X-MEN #38 (1) 
X-TREME X-MEN #39 (1) 
Probably the day after XX 39-FB (24-25). It is several days after XX 36-FB (2-6). A gladiator star, Storm enters the GWAs Las Vegas arena for a contest. 
X-TREME X-MEN #39 (25p3-39) 
The same day as XX 39 (1). With help from Yukio, Guido, and Koga, Storm and Callisto rebel against Masque and defeat her in Las Vegas. Storm and company celebrate their victory over Masque. Storm decides to leave the Arena life, but not before setting the arenas up as safe havens for mutants. 
NEW X-MEN #142 
One night. The narration notes Emmas murder in X 139 (21-22) as having occurred last month. As this issue leads to Xaviers crippling in X 146, it must occur after MYS 7 (11-21), UX 436, NM2 7, XU21/2, and W/CA 4 (17-21). As this issue leads to the death of Jean Grey in X 150, it must occur after ALIAS 28. Wolverine (sans goatee, and probably wearing the new outfit with yellow stripes under his jacket) happens to find Scott at the Hellfire Club trying to get drunk. He tells Scott the right after he left [actually it was a few days after, as noted in X 139 (21-22)], Emma was shot, and that Scotts the prime suspect. Sabretooth is also at the club, and it appears that hes on his own reconnaissance  he may be here after WX2 12. Logan is at the Hellfire Club to meet with Fantomex to begin a mission to take down the Weapon Plus program, and he tries to get Cyclops to join them. 
MYSTIQUE #8 
The same night as MYS 7 (11-21). As the Quiet Man and Shepard track her, Mystique arrives in Johannesburg at 10:14 PM SAST. After reconnoitering with Shortpack, she infiltrates Taylors compound, only to discover him dead. She battles the killer, the Host, who infects Mystique with a biological agent and takes off with Taylors bigpox. Green grass and trees in South Africa. 

Saturday, June 21: Summer Solstice 
MYSTIQUE #9 
The early morning after MYS 8 (starting 1:46 AM, Johannesburg time). Mystique staggers back to the hotel and partially recovers while Shortpack tracks the Host with a tracer Mystique put on her. Mystique pursues the Host and considers her beaten when the Host is hit by a car, but Host recovers and makes it back to Mystiques hotel before she does. When Raven arrives, the Host threatens to kill Shortpack. 
MYSTIQUE #10 (1-18) 
The same early morning as MYS 9. Mystique saves Shortpack and defeats the Host. She meets up with Shepard, who reports back to the Quiet Man. Full moon. 
NEW X-MEN #143 
Probably the early morning after X 142; since Scott is expected to have a hangover, it is likely several hours after X 142, but it is still dark out. Logan, Scott, and Fantomex infiltrate the evolutionary engineering facility, the World. There they encounter AIM agents who have been attacked by Weapon XV. 
NEW X-MEN #144 
The same early morning as X 143. Inside the World, Logan, Scott, and Fantomex encounter Weapon XV, who breaks free and heads for the Weapon Plus space station. Full moon. 
NEW X-MEN #145 
The same day as X 144. It is mere days before X 148 (6-22). Logan, Scott, and Fantomex follow Weapon XV to the Weapon Plus space station, where Logan accesses files concerning his identity, then, desperate and disturbed, he blows up the station. 
NEW X-MEN #146 
The same day as X 145. It is days before X 149 and three days before X 150 (1-31). Having escaped the satellite in a spacecraft, Scott and Fantomex crash into the Pacific Ocean. Beast and Emma head out to retrieve them, but their aircraft is sabotaged. Phoenix departs for space to retrieve Logan, who she finds alive. Jean and Wolverine discover that the Weapon Plus space program is Asteroid M, which also is rigged to explode. Xavier formally meets Dust, so this issue cant occur long after UX 138 (16-23). Dust attacks and disables Cerebra at the order of Xorn, who cripples Xavier and reveals himself to be Magneto. Xavier states that he still hopes to step down this summer as headmaster of the Institute. He may be here to deal with the drama over at the school that Forge mentions in MYS 10. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. 
NEW X-MEN #147  FB (20-21) 
The same day as X 146. After taking Xavier prisoner, Magneto destroys the Xavier Institute. 
X-TREME X-MEN #40 
The same day as X 147-FB (20-21). It is a few weeks (more like seven) after UX 425 (17-23). Marie is now working for Vange. Sage notes that the Xavier Institute is totally off-line and we see the school destroyed; the X-Treme team dont know the reason so Magneto has not yet gone public with his Manhattan conquest. Rogue notes that Paige is nineteen. Sam notes that Paige sounds way serious about being with Warren Worthington, a clue that this story occurs before UX 437. Storm is back in Tokyo. As the rest of the X-Treme team enjoy an evening clambake, Bishop fights Manacle, Rolling Thunder, Cudgel, Bludgeon, Revenant, and Bogan. Green grass and trees in Westchester. Full moon. 
X-TREME X-MEN #41 
The same night as XX 40. There still is no news from New York concerning the fate of the X-Men and the Xavier Institute. The captured Bishop is given Rave and falls under the control of Bogan. The X-Treme team discover Bishops and Sages plot to deal with Bogan, then they plan to fight Bogan. Storm says that things in Tokyo are confused, potentially serious. Green grass and trees in California Full moon. 
X-TREME X-MEN #42 
The same night as XX 41. The X-Treme team, joined by X-Corp reps, go up against Bogan and his minions, including Bishop. Full moon. 
X-TREME X-MEN #43 
The same night as XX 42. 
MYSTIQUE #10 (19-22) 
One night, twelve hours after MYS 10 (1-18). Mystique reports back to her Brooklyn safehouse, where she meets Forge, who notes that Xavier is indisposed right now...Im not sure if youve seen the news, but theres some drama over at the school  this may be a reference to the re-emergence of Magneto and the destruction of the school in X 146. The fact that this is now on the news indicates placement right after XX 41. 

Sunday, June 22 
NEW X-MEN #147  FB (2-3) 
The day after X 147FB (
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 Mar 2004 02:59 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul, 

Don't know if there was a problem during your posting, or if there's a limit to the size of messages that you've exceeded, but it appears your post was cut off in the middle. 



watching: bama v. miss state

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Posted: 06 Mar 2004 05:43 pm    Post subject: Here's the rest
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Don't know what happened, but here's the rest... 


Sunday, June 22 
NEW X-MEN #147  FB (2-3) 
The day after X 147FB (20-21). Magneto tears Manhattan apart. 
NEW X-MEN #147 
The same day as X 147-FB (2-3). Magneto notes that its taken one day to take over Manhattan, a good bit of which he destroys in this issue at great cost of human life. There is no sign of Asgard above Manhattan, and surely Thor would have opposed the carnage wrought by Magneto in this issue if he were around, so this issue must occur after the Reigning storyline in T2; one might argue that Magneto used the disappearance of Asgard as an opportunity to play his final hand. He refers to the time he spent masquerading as Xorn as all those months  indeed, Ive placed this story a little over a year after Xorn was invited to Xaviers in X 01 (30-42). It is not known where New Yorks heroes or the other X-Men are all this time. 
NEW X-MEN #148 (1-5) 
It must be the same day as X 147. Aboard the hurtling Asteroid M, Logan and Jean have 24 hours before the station hits the surface of the sun. 

Monday, June 23 
NEW X-MEN #148 (6-22) 
The day (24 hours) after X 148 (1-5). It is mere days after X 145, but perhaps at least two days after X 147, since Magneto notes that each day, more and more mutants flock to my cause. No other stories can occur in New York during the time Magneto has converted it to New Genosha. Magneto gloats over his victory, orders Esme to find the remaining X-Men via Cerebra, and orders the mass extermination of all remaining humans in New Genosha tomorrow. Meanwhile, Logan guts Jean to put an end to her pain as Asteroid M burns up at the sun. 

Tuesday, June 24 
NEW X-MEN #149 
The rainy day after X 148 (6-22). It is days after X 142. As Magneto drives New Yorks humans to their deaths, he accidentally kills Basilisk and loses the support of Angel and Beak, the latter of whom is sent to his death. Beak survives and is taken in by a mutant resistance force that includes Esmes sisters, Dust, Cyclops, and Fantomex. As Magneto gloats before the imprisoned Xavier, Charles is contacted telepathically by Jean. Green trees in New York. 
NEW X-MEN #150 (1-31) 
The same day as X 149. This segment occurs three days after X 146. It occurs before WX2 16 and XS 19 (1-5), and probably before MYS 11-FB. Logan and Jean are resurrected by the release of the Phoenix Consciousness and they hie back to earth, pick up Emma and Hank in the Pacific Ocean, and head to Manhattan, where Magneto faces restless followers, mutineering sidekicks, and an attack by Fantomex and Cyclops. In the ensuing melee, Xavier is freed and Esme is killed by Magneto. Magneto sends an electromagnetic pulse through Jeans body and it kills her. Logan decapitates Magneto. We see green grass and trees and rain in New York and Washington, DC. 

Friday, June 27 
MYSTIQUE #11  FB 
One night. It is a few months after MYS 2. Forge mentions that Xavier isnt at the mansion tonight, which seems to be an indication that its not the same night as MYS 10 (19-22), in which Forge notes that Xavier is responding to an incident at the mansion; if that incident is the Magneto episode, that means that this issue must occur after X 150 (1-31) but before Xavier leaves the school. Also, New York isnt being trashed by Magneto, so its better to place this story after the carnage. Forge takes Mystique out for coffee, then they respond to a live news story about the abduction of a mutant boy. They discover that the boy, a mind controller, is in charge, and he sets Forge against Mystique. 
MYSTIQUE #11 
The same night as MYS 11-FB. Forge takes a swing a Mystique. 
MYSTIQUE #12 
The same night as MYS 11. 

Saturday, July 5 
WEAPON X v2 #16 
One day, long enough after WX 15 for the doctors at Weapon X to give Chamber a new face. It is several years after WX 16-FB. This story must occur after X 150 (1-31), as monitors in the Weapon X compound show a recorded video of Weapon XVs attack on Magneto. Brent Jackson shows Jono around the Weapon X compound and offers him a trial assignment, to kill John Sublime. Logan is seen doing surveillance on Jono. Green trees. 
WEAPON X v2 #17 
The same day as WX2 16. Chamber meets Logan in a movie theater (in a place where its raining) and discuss Jonos assignment to infiltrate Weapon X for the X-Men. Hours later, Jono agrees to kill Sublime, and that evening, he, Jackson, Sauron, and Wild Child attack Sublimes headquarters, where it appears to be a normal business day. Sublime and his U-Men root out the skulking Jono. 
WEAPON X v2 #18 
The same night as WX2 17. It is several weeks after WX2 18-FB. Jackson, Sauron, and Wild Child save Chamber, who then finds and kills John Sublime and reports back to Wolverine. 

Thursday, July 17 
X-STATIX #19 (1-5) 
One night. Vivisector and his actor boyfriend Brandon Cody attend a premiere of Codys first movie. Dr. Finlay tells Xavier hes terminating his employment at Xaviers lab. Xavier is in a wheelchair here, so this segment must occur after X 150 (1-31). 

Friday, July 18 
X-STATIX #19 (6-9) 
Probably the night of the day after XS 19 (1-5). Finlay offers Vivisector a formula that will eliminate his mutant powers. Lacuna miraculously emerges from her coma on the set of her TV show. 

Saturday, July 19 
X-STATIX #19 (10) 
Probably the day after XS 19 (6-9). Finlay runs some tests on Vivisector. 

Sunday, July 20 
X-STATIX #19 (11-15) 
Probably the day after XS 19 (10). Vivisector gets into an altercation with his teammates when he announces his intention to take Finlays formula. Anarchists face is slashed and Guy needs to be placed in a sensory depravation chamber for a few days. 

Monday, July 21 
X-STATIX #19 (16p1-16p3) 
Probably the night of the day after XS 19 (11-15). Cody states that the first weekend box-office for his movie was abysmal, so its probably early in the week following the movie opening in XS 19 (1-5). Vivisector takes Cody out to dinner. 

Tuesday, July 22 
X-STATIX #19 (16p4-18) 
Probably the day after XS 19 (16). Guy is in his sensory depravation chamber, so its within a few days after XS 19 (11-15). Vivisector takes Finlays formula and demonstrates his loss of power on Lacunas TV show. 

Wednesday, July 23 
X-STATIX #19 (19-22) 
Probably the day after XS 19 (16-18). Cody leaves Vivisector and X-Statix boots him from the team. As X-Statix battle mutated loggers in Newfoundland, Finlay intends to become the next Vivisector with Miles genetic material. 

October 
NEW X-MEN #151  FB 
One day, 150 years before X 151. At Jeans grave, Emma Frost tries to convince Scott to reopen Xaviers school sometime after Xaviers retirement, but reflecting on the Xorn/Magneto affair of this past year, Scott quits. Falling autumn leaves.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 Mar 2004 06:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Recent X-Men -- yet another stab at a calendar
By Andy Holcombe

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
UNCANNY X-MEN #425 (5-17p1) 
Forge is there, but he and Xavier probably have no opportunity to meet, given the reference in MYS 1. 

Saturday, May 3 
UNCANNY X-MEN #425 (17p2-23) 
Professor X is among the attendees, as is Forge, so this segment likely occurs after MYS 2; perhaps Xavier and Forge traveled together from DC to New York to attend the wedding. 

Friday, May 16 
UNCANNY X-MEN #431 
Mystique emerges from Abyss dimensional hole, having been trapped in there since UX 406. 

Tuesday, June 10 
MYSTIQUE #1 (9-23) 
The early morning after MYS 1 (1-8). At 2:54 AM, Xavier arrives at Forges apartment in Baltimore to ask him to find Mystique. From the dialogue, it appears that Xavier and Forge have been out of touch for quite a while; perhaps they had no opportunity to connect at the wedding in UX 425 (17-23); in any event, that likely places this story, through MYS 6 (16-22), before W/CA 1-FB. At 3:12 AM, Mystique is on a mission in Washington DC.She must appear here following the Draco storyline in UX 433. 
<<<
 


Your notes don't agree. Do Mystique #1 and 2 happen before Uncanny X-Men #425 or after Uncanny X-Men #431? Personally, I like the current placement and suggest just changing your notes to reflect that. 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Friday, June 20 
UNCANNY X-MEN #440 
The morning after UX 439. Warren explains the reason for his behavior toward Paige and after he apologizes, they profess their love for each other. The armored Chester Cabot catches Josh with Julia and blasts Josh. A jealous Sheriff Pete threatens Lucinda Guthrie and Kurt takes him down. Paige is nineteen. Green grass and trees in Kentucky. 

Saturday, June 21: Summer Solstice 
X-TREME X-MEN #40 
Sam notes that Paige sounds way serious about being with Warren Worthington, a clue that this story occurs before UX 437. 
<<<
 


This doesn't quite line up correctly. I don't remember the context of Sam and Rogue's conversation (are they talking about a recent letter, e-mail, phone call, or telepathic conversation between Sam and Paige or one of his other relatives or are they just talking about general current events?), but if X-Treme X-Men #40 should take place before Uncanny X-Men #437, it should be moved. Or you could change the reference to be after Uncanny X-Men #441. 

Anyway, good job keeping track of a very tumultous time period.

Last edited by Andy Holcombe on 06 Mar 2004 09:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 06 Mar 2004 07:46 pm    Post subject: Good eye
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Andy, 

In one case, I think you misread my note. The calendar placement of MYS 1 after UX 431 is intentional, and the note under MYS 1 that suggests that Xavier and Forge did not have a chance to touch base in UX 425 is meant to explain how they had been out of touch for a while before MYS 1. 

In the other case, you caught one of those notes that I neglected to edit after the entry was shifted to a new spot on the calendar. When UX 437 came out, we thought that Warren was breaking up with Paige, but now we know that's not the case. This enabled us to move XX 40 after UX 437. But I didn't catch the edit in the UX 437 entry. I have removed that clause. 

Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Mar 2004 09:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Good eye
By Andy Holcombe

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Andy, 

In one case, I think you misread my note. The calendar placement of MYS 1 after UX 431 is intentional, and the note under MYS 1 that suggests that Xavier and Forge did not have a chance to touch base in UX 425 is meant to explain how they had been out of touch for a while before MYS 1. 
<<<
 


I was referrring to your notes on Uncanny X-Men #425 (17p2-23) where you mention Professor X and Forge flying down from DC together after Mystique #2. I included the notes for Uncanny X-Men #425 (5-17p1) and #431 and Mystique #1 (9-23) for completeness sake. As I said, I agree with you on placing Mystique #1 after Uncanny X-Men #431. 

Here's your note with emphasis added: 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Saturday, May 3 
UNCANNY X-MEN #425 (17p2-23) 
The day after UX 425 (5-16). It is a few weeks (more like seven) before XX 40. Realizing his true feelings, Alex calls a halt to the wedding ceremony. **Professor X is among the attendees, as is Forge, so this segment likely occurs after MYS 2; perhaps Xavier and Forge traveled together from DC to New York to attend the wedding.** It also appears that Soldier X and Domino are here, probably sometime between SX 7 and WX2 6 (18-23). Rogue and Gambit are here, but the X-Treme team doesnt seem to be, and neither does Chamber. Magma cannot be one of those present, as she is in a coma. Cannonball is presumably here, based on remarks he makes in XX 40. Green grass and trees at Xaviers, where it is warm enough for an outdoor wedding; in fact, Alex remarks that its hot today. My placement of the wedding here means that Alexs and Lornas engagement lasted several months.  
<<<

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Mar 2004 01:07 am    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 

>>>
Friday, June 13 
HULK/WOLVERINE: SIX HOURS #3 
The same day as HW:SH 2. It is two years after H/W:SH 3-FB. Whitie dies in a vehicle crash. Skinner kills Sid and comes close to killing Margie and Kyle when Logan and Banner arrive on the scene. It is a time of year in which sunset arrives before 6:15 PM, but that conflicts with the summer camp reference in HW:SH 1. Green grass and trees in Canada. 
<<<


I'm guessing that should read "Shredder" instead of "Skinner"? 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 

>>>
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA #1 
The same day as W/CA 1-FB. Forge arrives at Avengers Embassy, where he tells his tale to Cap and Warbird. Xavier (BTS) sends Wolverine after the stolen chip and Logan finds the Contingency in the sewers under Manhattan. Cap and Warbird arrive to find Logan shot up. 
<<<
 


You know you have the Wolverine/Cap. America miniseries happen the day after "Six Hours" concludes? I didn't buy W/CA , so I'm just asking: has Logan had enough time to get to New York from Canada, and to get all shot up? 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 

>>>
Tuesday, June 17 
DAREDEVIL v2 #55 (17p2-22) 
One day, probably months after DD2 55 (15-17), long enough for Maya to become a noted figure in the New York arts world. Daredevil does not have a goatee here. Maya (wearing a fur coat) and Daredevil meet on a rooftop. We see blowing leaves. 
<<<
 


I take it this is after DD v2 #56 page 7, (where we first see Matt has a goatee). How did we decide to resolve that? Cause he's still wearing his goatee right up until the one year anniversary of DD2 #50. Maybe he shaved it off for a day? 

And Logan's appearance in Daredevil 53-55 happens in the prior fall/winter before this Spring calender you've put up, correct? 

I'll continue to go over it and see if I spot anything else, but it looks really good from what I can see. I like how you've managed to compress time...cause events in the Marvel universe ARE supposed to be going at a slower rate than in real life. So this looks good. 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Mar 2004 10:17 am    Post subject: X-calendar comments
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I was referrring to your notes on Uncanny X-Men #425 (17p2-23) where you mention Professor X and Forge flying down from DC together after Mystique #2. I included the notes for Uncanny X-Men #425 (5-17p1) and #431 and Mystique #1 (9-23) for completeness sake. As I said, I agree with you on placing Mystique #1 after Uncanny X-Men #431. 
<<<



Ah, I see. Another good catch, Andy. Consider the entry for UX 425 edited. 


Quote: 
>>>
I'm guessing that should read "Shredder" instead of "Skinner"? 
<<< 


Yup, Shredder it is. Thanks, Kevin. 


Quote: 
>>>
You know you have the Wolverine/Cap. America miniseries happen the day after "Six Hours" concludes? I didn't buy W/CA , so I'm just asking: has Logan had enough time to get to New York from Canada, and to get all shot up? 
<<<
 


I suppose Logan could have summoned an aircraft from Xavier's to pick him up right after the Canadian adventure ends. It might be nice to allow more time, but I'm okay with the placement, especially considering Logan's history of globe-hopping. 


Quote: 
>>>
I take it this is after DD v2 #56 page 7, (where we first see Matt has a goatee). How did we decide to resolve that? Cause he's still wearing his goatee right up until the one year anniversary of DD2 #50. Maybe he shaved it off for a day? 

And Logan's appearance in Daredevil 53-55 happens in the prior fall/winter before this Spring calender you've put up, correct? 
<<<


DD2 56-FB (7) occurs in December. Matt could have shaved and regrown his goatee during the period in question. But that "year to the day" reference in DD2 56? I'm not buying it; it just doesn't work with Jessica's pregnancy.  This DD issue will be fodder for future discussion, I'm sure.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Mar 2004 12:54 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 

>>>
I suppose Logan could have summoned an aircraft from Xavier's to pick him up right after the Canadian adventure ends. It might be nice to allow more time, but I'm okay with the placement, especially considering Logan's history of globe-hopping. 
<<<



Well, it's possible. Wolverine IS the man with the most crossover appearances to make. He's freakin' everywhere! So yeah, the placement probably works... 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 

>>>
DD2 56-FB (7) occurs in December. Matt could have shaved and regrown his goatee during the period in question. But that "year to the day" reference in DD2 56? I'm not buying it; it just doesn't work with Jessica's pregnancy. This DD issue will be fodder for future discussion, I'm sure. 
<<<


LOL.  Well, I suspect it'll be discussed for some time to come. Okay, we'll come back to that topic. 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

*****************************************************************************************

Thread 15

Posted: 06 Mar 2004 10:12 pm    Post subject: Flashbacks
By rhod

If an entire issue is a flshback, does it really need to be marked FB? 
I 'm referring particularly to X-man -1 which I just noticed, though I'm sure I've seen this in other characters listings aswell, (mostly in the case of the -1 issues)

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Mar 2004 10:43 pm
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
If an entire issue is a flshback, does it really need to be marked FB? 
<<<

Nope. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Mar 2004 11:55 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Well, wait. If the entire issue is simply a story told out of order, then, no. But if the entire issue is a flashback, then why would it not be treated as a flashback? 


watching: the practice

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Mar 2004 10:27 am
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

It sounds to me like, if "the entire issue is a flashback", then it IS simply a story told out of order. To me, a flashback requires the presence of a framing sequence set in a different time. 

Rhod referenced X-Man #-1, which -- aside from a non-canon Stan Lee intro explaining that the issue was set back during the AoA -- was set entirely in the past, with no framing sequence. To me, that's not a flashback -- that's a story told out of order. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Mar 2004 10:54 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm not debating X-Man -1, as I don't have the book, but rather the issue of "is an entire story that's a flashback treated as a flashback?" I'll admit I'm having a little difficulty picturing exactly how an entire story could be a flashback--perhaps he's referring to when the first panel of a story has a character saying "I remember when..." and then the rest of the story is a flashback--but in my mind, it should be treated as a flashback. 

If the framing sequence is not canon, then I don't see how it could be a flashback, but the question--as presented--is that X-Man -1 was a flashback, but because it was an entire story, should be treated differently. 


watching: buffy

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Mar 2004 02:51 pm    Post subject: fb
By rhod

I confess that after a brief search, X-man -1 is the only example I found of this. Are we agreed then that the first entry should read XM -1, not XM -1-FB?

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Mar 2004 05:40 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I'll admit I'm having a little difficulty picturing exactly how an entire story could be a flashback--perhaps he's referring to when the first panel of a story has a character saying "I remember when..." and then the rest of the story is a flashback--but in my mind, it should be treated as a flashback. 
<<<


How about ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR #1, which has an opening scene captioned "21 years ago", a second scene captioned "ten years ago" and a third captioned "six months later"? The series doesn't actually catch up to "present day" until the closing pages of issue #2. 

Are these scenes to be regarded as flashbacks, or simply as scenes in their correct chronological order? 

For that matter, what about the majority of ULTIMATES #1, which takes place in 1945 before leaping forward almost sixty years to the final scene?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Mar 2004 06:53 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Those don't sound like flashbacks to me. 

Remember the recent storylines in Daredevil and Elektra, which were horribly non-linear ("5 hours ago...", "three weeks ago..."). We didn't treat those as flashbacks. 



watching: smallville

*********************************************************************************************

Thread 16

Posted: 08 Mar 2004 08:00 am    Post subject: QUENTIN HARDERMAN...VICTORIA HELLSTROM...HUGIN
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

new entries marked ** 


HARDERMAN, QUENTIN 

CA 170 
**CA 172 (2p2-2p5) 
CA 171 


HELLSTROM, VICTORIA 

H:PL 2-FB 
(M/SPT 12-FB not seeing her in M/SPT 12possible typo for) 
**M/SPT 13-FB 


HUGIN 

(T@ 14/3 this was in one of my earlier posts (#46) and my research notes show it checked as validated, but now I cannot find Hugin in T@ 14/3, very confusing. ) 
**T 375 
**T 376 
**T 379 
T 381 
A 310 

. . .similarly 
. . .MUNIN 
. . .**T 371 
. . .**T 373 
. . .**T 374 
. . .**T 375 
. . .**T 376 
. . .**T 379 
. . .T 381 
. . .A 310 


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#162

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Mar 2004 10:13 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

CA #172 comes between #170 and #171? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Mar 2004 05:53 pm    Post subject: oops
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

OOPS! 

you know I prooof these over and over. Usually even recheck the appearance just before posting. and still screwups get in. 


thx Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Mar 2004 05:56 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Anytime. What's it supposed to be? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Mar 2004 10:50 pm    Post subject: QUENTIN HARDERMAN
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

HARDERMAN, QUENTIN 

CA 171 
**CA 172 
CA 174

***********************************************************************************************

Thread 17

Posted: 09 Mar 2004 03:21 pm    Post subject: FF: Nobody Gets Out Alive TPB
By Cook

I saw that this TPB is listed in the chronology of a few characters. 
Does anyone know what was added to this TPB that is different than the individual issues? 

Thanks! 

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Mar 2004 07:57 pm    Post subject: Re: FF: Nobody Gets Out Alive TPB
By Andy Holcombe

Mostly it's a recap of Ant-Man 2 reviewing the files of recent Fantastic Four missions. Here's what I sent Russ when I reviewed the added material. 

Most of the book covers Fantastic Four (vol. 1) #387-392, although certain recap pages are omitted. As far as new material, all I could identify was a prologue set shortly before issue #387. 

Ant-Man 2 

Ant-Man reflects on his good fortune of becoming the Fantastic Fours technical advisor and scans the files to bring himself and the readers up to speed on the Fantastic Fours recent adventures, beginning with Franklin becoming an adult and continuing through Franklins fight with the Invisible Woman, Malices possession of Franklin, Lyjas return and announcement that she was carrying Johnny Storms baby, Huntaras appearance and fight with Mr. Fantastic, and the deaths of Mr. Fantastic and Dr. Doom.

************************************************************************************************

Thread 18

Posted: 09 Mar 2004 05:58 pm    Post subject: Vision and Scarlet Witch#5 question
By Scathach80

A lot of people, as I recall, appeared as ghosts in Vision and Scarlet Witch (Second Series)#5, such as Dracula, Baron Strucker, Baron Zemo, etc. I am wondering, as I did not see Vision and Scarlet Witch#5 listed in their chronologies, if my memory is faulty.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Mar 2004 11:47 pm    
By John Simons

Well, you are correct that a lot of deceased characters appear to Wanda when she is apparently pulled into "the Land of the Dead" However, the ghost of Agatha Harkness (the only ghost I would say is 100% certainly genuine), casts doubt on the reality of the various characters. 

Of Samhaim (the main baddie of the issue) Harkness says, "don't believe everything you see in his grim realm!" 

On page 20, the narration caption says, "...but like all else here, salvation in a black illusion!" 

So are the various characters other than Agatha and Samhain actual ghosts, or illusions or simulacrums conjured up by Samhain? If this appearence isn't listed in their various MCP entries, I would assume that the latter is the answer.

****************************************************************************************************

Thread 19

Posted: 09 Mar 2004 05:18 am    Post subject: Vulture's apparitons.
By latro

I'm sorry for my english.  Congratulations for your web, it is very useful for me. 
There is two apparitions of Vulture, Adrian Toomes, that are not report in the page. In WTS 15 and WTS 16 (Webspinners, Tales of Spider-man). 

Thank you!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Mar 2004 11:14 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Welcome to the Project, latro. 

Do you have either of these issues nearby? 


watching: beathany cabe reading a book

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Mar 2004 01:03 pm    
By latro

Yes, I have those comics. They are situated just after "PPSM2 12". At least, these are the last apparitions of Vulture that I know. 

Was that what you meant? (Remember my poor english, High School's level...  ) 


Thank you for your patience.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Mar 2004 01:15 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

latro wrote: 
>>>
Yes, I have those comics. They are situated just after "PPSM2 12". At least, these are the last apparitions of Vulture that I know. 

Was that what you meant? 
<<<


Yes, thanks. I asked because I wanted to invite you to write an issue analysis of the two books and post them to our "Issue Analysis" forum. The books you mentioned aren't included in the Project at the moment, and we need to know everyone who appears there--not just the Vulture--before we can add it. 

latro wrote: 
>>>
(Remember my poor english, High School's level...  ) 
<<<


There's no need to apologize. Your English is much better than my Spanish. 


watching: sec basketball: kentucky v. georgia

********************************************************************************************

Thread 20

Posted: 12 Mar 2004 08:04 am    Post subject: HUMP...IRON MAIDEN...IRON MAN
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

new entries marked ** 


HUMP/ 

**NM 91 
**NM 99 
NM 100 


IRON MAIDEN/ 

**M/FAN 11 
**M/FAN 12 
CA 388 
CA 389 


IRON MAN/TONY STARK 

IM 268-FB 
IM 144/2 (should be IM 144/2-FB. Most of the story is a flashback but it clearly takes place in current Marvel time. (3p3  16 are flashback and 1-3p2 and 17 are current) 
IM 244-FB-FB 

. 

IM 144 
**IM 144/2 
IM 145 

similarly 

IRON MAN IV/JAMES R. "JIM" "RHODEY" RHODES 
DD 258-FB 
IM3 20-FB 
IM 144/2 (should be IM 144/2-FB. 
IM3 20-FB 
M/SH3 15 

 

IM 141 
**IM 144/2 
IM 145 


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#163

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Mar 2004 02:34 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

Not a correction, but a small addition. In M/FAN 12 the name of Iron Maiden is given as Melina Vostokoff.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

**********************************************************************************************

Thread 21

Posted: 12 Mar 2004 09:08 pm    Post subject: Satan and Mephisto note; adjustment
By Scathach80

A while ago (under archive 23) Mr. Don Campbell asked me to back up my contention that the entity posing as Satan in Tomb of Dracula#63-68 was actually Mephisto. Now I can back it up. 

In Tomb of Dracula#64, Topaz was with Dracula in Hell when his power was taken away. Where was Topaz seen next? In Doctor Strange (second series)#75-in Mephisto's Hell. (Check Mephisto's chronology). 

So, this shows that the Handbook in the Dracula and Topaz entries was right, and that "Satan" in TOD was Mephisto. 

So, to adjust Satan's chronology; 

SATAN/"MARDUK KURIOS" 
H:PL 2-FB 
M/SPT 5 
M/SPT 6 
M/SPT 7 
M/SPT 8 
M/SPT 9 
M/SPT 11 
GR2 1 
GR2 2 
M/SPT 12 
M/SPT 13 
GR2 5 
M/SPT 15 
GR2 8 
GR2 9 
DRSTR2 15 
DRSTR2 16 
SOS 1 
GR2 19 
SOS 3 
SOS 8 
SSM&CB 238/2 
GR2 32 
DEF 99 
DEF 100 
DEF 101 
DEF 104 
DEF 105 
DEF 111 
TER 1 
TER 4 
H:PL 3-FB 
H:PL 1 
H:PL 5 

I have no idea where those Tomb of Dracula issues fit in with Mephisto's chronology.

******************************************************************************************

Thread 22

Posted: 13 Mar 2004 07:35 am    Post subject: Question about FORGE
By Ant-Man

Forge's chronolgy lists "FURY 1-FB" 

Is this the one-shot from 1994? 
I've been looking all through that issue to find Forge, and I can't seem to locate him. Can anybody clarify? 

Thanks!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Mar 2004 10:25 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

He's helping to build the HeliCarrier, on pp.29-31. I'm not sure why it's listed as a "flashback", though... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Mar 2004 12:19 pm    
By John Simons

As I mentioned in the latter days of the old board, I wonder if FURY has too many continuity problems to be considered canon. I'm not the world's biggest expert on Nick Fury, but as for Tony Stark's continuity the role he plays in this one-shot seems at odds with what he is up to in his own books. I particularly see problems reconciling FURY with the Iron Man: the Iron Age limited series. It's true that FURY was written first, therefore it was incumbent on Kurt Busiek to incorporate Tony's FURY appearences into his new book. Considering that Kurt is well known for doing his homework and respecting continuity, I find it hard to believe that he forgot about FURY; more likely, someone in Marvel told him it was okay to ignore it because all the mistakes had rendered it non-canon. 

Oh, and as for the FB issue, the entire comic is narrated by Nick Fury from the present day, even though there is never an actual on-panel scene of him doing this. I assume this is what was meant by whomever wrote "FURY- FB" under Forge's chronology.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Mar 2004 02:13 pm    
By Ant-Man

I guess I should have taken the time to read the dialogue, and not thumb through it! 

Thanks for the help!

*************************************************************************************************

Thread 23

Posted: 14 Mar 2004 07:40 pm    Post subject: "Parker" in THOR #141
By RLG

In THOR #141 (6p5), while making a housecall to an elderly woman, Don Blake watches a televised report that shows photographs of the rampage of Replicus. The newscaster states, "--these startling photographs were taken by a part-time photographer named Parker who happened to be at the window of the Daily Bugle building when the silent monster struck--!" 

Does this warrant a BTS appearance for Spider-Man? If so, where should it go in Spidey's chronology? The best I can figure (with Paul B's Avengers calandar and TOMITASM #2 as guides) would be somewhere between his UX #27 (late Nov) and FF #61 (Dec) appearances, as THOR #141 also occurs in late November. 

Unfortunately TOMITASM is silent on the calandar placement for ASM #44 - #46, which are the title appearances for Spider-Man between the guest appearances in X-MEN and FF. 

Glad to be aboard - RLG

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2004 09:45 pm    Post subject: Placement of T 141
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I don't have a definitive placement of T 141 relative to ASM 44-46, but in my notes for a master MU calendar, T 141 is the entry right before ASM 44.
_________________
Paul B.

***************************************************************************************************

Thread 24

Posted: 11 Mar 2004 10:09 pm    Post subject: Billy Connors, a lesson in MU aging
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Picked up SPECSM3 11 today. In the story it's been a while since Martha Connors died and Billy Connors is noted as being "a ten-year-old boy." 

The problem with this is that Martha Connors died in SM:QL 4 and in SM:QL 3, Billy is noted as being 16! 

The quick explanation is that the person noting Billy's age in SPECSM3 11 is Kurt Connors' psychiatrist, and she simply could have messed up. 

Still, it makes you wonder how closely writers are paying attention to little continuity details like characters' ages. (Cough) Franklin Richards (cough). 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Mar 2004 11:32 am    Post subject: Re: Billy Connors, a lesson in MU aging
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Still, it makes you wonder how closely writers are paying attention to little continuity details like characters' ages. (Cough) Franklin Richards (cough).  
<<<

Don't even start, buddy! He's very clearly ten now, according to 4 #1.  
(BTW, I'm really hoping 4 gets thrown out of continuity! Man, is that going to get ugly!)

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Mar 2004 11:55 am    
By John Simons

According to his birthday cake, Franklin is 8, not 10. 

Of course, according to the Olshevsky/Bourcier calendar he is 47. Billy Conners is eligible for social security. But they're young at heart![/quote]

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2004 01:10 pm    Post subject: Franklin and Billy
By dimadick

Well both boys should be allowed to grow up at some point. 

1.Fantastic Four Annual #6 featuring the debut/birth of Franklin was published back in November, 1968. 

That was more than a year after the debut of a newborn Adam Warlock in Fantastic Four I #66 in September, 1967. Our boy Adam has had time to grow over his inability to speak and got over his threatening to hurt Alicia Masters. He has gone through a long series of deaths, resurrections and hibernations and became a seasoned veteran of a series of cosmic conflicts. He has even started raising a kid of his own, becoming substitute father to Atleza Langunn. For Franklin less than nine years have passed. 

Back in 1968, Peter Parker was attending Empire State University, majoring in science. His group of friends included roomate Harry Osborn, fellow science major Gwen Stacy, party animal Mary-Jane Watson and Eugene "Flash" Thompson on leave from the army. Peter and Gwen were getting to know kindly Professor Miles Warren, too near-sighted to tell Spidey's uniform from Peter's sweater. Housemates Anna Watson and May Reilly Parker were just getting to know their new lodger, soft-spoken Dr. Otto Octavius. The year saw the debutes of Joseph Robertson and Captain George Stacy and the return from the dead of Red Skull/Albert Malik. Adrian Toomes also returned from the dead to reclaim the Vulture identity from Blackie Drago. 

Since then Albert has rejoined the ranks of the dead as did George, Gwen, Harry and Miles. Harry had time to marry and raise a child of his own. Peter has long graduated and settled down with Mary Jane. They have had a child of their own and lost it. Peter has already gained some experience as a science teacher. Eugene has long been discharged and has gone through a long series of personal trials. He is currently recovering from brain damage. Otto and May almost got married and have since separated. Both have died and returned. Adrian has arguably become the oldest supervillain still active though last seen acting as a vigilante. For Franklin only eight years have passed. 

Back in 1968, the Avengers had two rookie members in Black Panther and the Vision. Both have since become seasoned veterans among the team. A small army of other members have joined the team, some with years of service. Apparently all of them had time to become veterans in eight years. 

Back in 1968, the X-Men were in their late teens with Jean Grey attending College. Lorna Dane makes her debut as Magneto's daughter. Iceman soon explains to her that this is not the case. As for his sources: "I went to your home! Questioned your folks! Read the newspaper files!" In the "eight" years to follow the birth of Franklin, the X-Men have grown to adulthood as did the New Mutants and Generation X. Havok became the first of an army of X-Men to follow Polaris in debuting. Jean has gone through a series of deaths and resurrections and has taken the very appropriate name Phoenix. Scott Summers has gone through two marriages, parenthood and even extramarrital affairs. Magneto has died and returned time and again. Polaris has returned to being his daughter along with Scarlet Witch. 

Marvel characters have gone through a lot of changes in those "eight years" since Franklin's birth. Any particular reason fror Franlin being unique in never aging and maturing? And by the way most of his aging seems to have followed Onslaught:Marvel Universe where Nate Grey estimated Franklin to be a five-year-old. 

2. Billy Connors is an even older character than Franlin. He was introduced back in Amazing Spider-Man #6 (November, 1963) as the son of former army surgeon and current scientist Dr. Curtis Connors. He has forty years of published appearances. And the only one of them where he was co-starring was arguably Amazing Spider-Man #365 (August, 1992). There he celebrates his eleventh birthday and is determined to get his wish fulfilled. To kill the Lizard with his knife that is. Apparently the boy ages backwards.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2004 01:32 pm    
By Kevin W.

Hey, Dimadick's hit upon something I've been meaning to explore for some time. Maybe we can track how much time has passed in the Marvel Universe since FF#1 by going how old the kids have gotten. Can we like make a list of every kid born after FF#1? (or what characters were kids in their first appearance, like Billy Connors?) We could list their first appearances and note what age they are now... 

That Billy Connor's reference has obviously got to be a mistake, he's got to be a teenager by now. And as for Franklin, well, he's the exception because he's had god like powers over the years, which may have messed with his aging process...at one point in the 90's, he was a teenager from the future, wasn't he? 

But what about other characters? What about Crystal and Quicksilver's daughter? How old is she now, and when was her first appearance? Stuff like that may be interesting to follow... 

You know, now that Valeria has been born, maybe some age will finally show on Franklin, cause it'd be ridiculous for Valeria to remain a baby, or for Valeria to become a 2 or 3 year old, yet Franklin still hasn't hit puberty... 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 14 Mar 2004 03:45 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'd steer clear of characters with inherent super powers, and the children of said characters. You can't judge their proper age, because the super powers tend to delay the aging process. Concentrate on the non-powered characters (mostly supporting characters). 

Does anyone care to determine the ages of the following (but it only counts if you can do 'em all)? 

Sara Grey Bailey 
Bethany Cabe 
Vera Cantor 
Peggy Carter 
Sharon Carter 
Billy Connors 
Dum Dum Dugan 
Ernesto and Luigi Gambonno 
Pepper Potts 
Tony Stark 
J. Jonah Jameson 
Edwin Jarvis 
Gabe Jones 
Marlo Chandler Jones 
Rck Jones 
Cassie Lang 
Betty Brant Leeds 
Willie Lumpkin 
Alicia Masters 
Liz Allan Osborn 
Normie Osborn 
May Parker 
Ivan Petrovitch 
Robert Rider 
Randy Robertson 
Jill Stacy 
Flash Thompson 
Mary Jane Watson-Parker 
Wong 
Leiko Wu 


watching: ncaa basketball: wisconsin v. illinois

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Posted: 14 Mar 2004 05:48 pm    Post subject: Aging and Marvel time
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
I'd steer clear of characters with inherent super powers, and the children of said characters. You can't judge their proper age, because the super powers tend to delay the aging process.  


Sure you can. People's ages are marked by the anniversaries of their birth. As such, age is entirely chronological and has nothing to do with the physical health or condition of the person in question. Although Peter Parker's physical condition is atypical of a normal human of his age and may have the body of a 20-something, he is still the same age as Flash Thompson (mid thirties?) 

That having been said, it's easy to explain the fact that super-powered characters can seem younger than they are, but it's how Marvel treats the aging of normal humans that's a bit off-kilter; just like super-powered characters, they don't seem to age as quickly as they should. 

I've written about the passage of MU time in previous posts so I won't go into great detail. But given the flow of plotlines and the numerous "non-topical" temporal references that have appeared in Marvel comics for forty years, we know that, while MU time passes more slowly than time in the real world, more time must pass between FF 1 and "now" than Marvel would have us believe. I've yet to determine the exact number of MU years since FF 1, but suffice it to say that the answer is going to be hard to swallow. 

While the passage of time itself is problematic, we're probably going to be faced with the paradox that MU time doesn't appear to pass at the same rate universally. If someone does determine ages for all the folks on Russ' list, s/he may conclude that time is passing at different rates for different characters (rather than people's bodies aging at different rates). 

As for Billy Connor, the reference to his eleventh birthday in ASM 365 and the reference to his being sixteen in SM:QL 3 are probably in synch, with five MU years separating the two events (at least that's the way it's starting to look as I extrapolate the calendar back). Five MU years separating stories published ten years apart. That suggests that two years of MU time may pass in one real year. But by that reckoning, Billy would be in his twenties now, not 16. Whichever, he's certainly not 10. 

Truly a conundrum.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Mar 2004 08:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Aging and Marvel time
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
I'd steer clear of characters with inherent super powers, and the children of said characters. You can't judge their proper age, because the super powers tend to delay the aging process.  
<<<

Sure you can. People's ages are marked by the anniversaries of their birth. As such, age is entirely chronological and has nothing to do with the physical health or condition of the person in question. Although Peter Parker's physical condition is atypical of a normal human of his age and may have the body of a 20-something, he is still the same age as Flash Thompson (mid thirties?) 

That having been said, it's easy to explain the fact that super-powered characters can seem younger than they are, but it's how Marvel treats the aging of normal humans that's a bit off-kilter; just like super-powered characters, they don't seem to age as quickly as they should. 
<<<


That's what I meant, although perhaps "proper" isn't the right word. I meant that you could claim that Peter Parker is fifty, and, because of his radioactive blood, that's believable, but you run into a problem if you try to convince people that Mary Jane is also fifty. 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
If someone does determine ages for all the folks on Russ' list, s/he may conclude that time is passing at different rates for different characters . 
<<<

To me, that would be akin to admitting that trying to calculate character's ages just doesn't work. It makes more sense to say that there are four Christmases (indeed, even four Septembers) every year. 



watching: married...with children

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Posted: 14 Mar 2004 09:37 pm    Post subject: Aging
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
To me, that would be akin to admitting that trying to calculate character's ages just doesn't work. It makes more sense to say that there are four Christmases (indeed, even four Septembers) every year. 
 


I do think trying to calculate characters' ages would be a good thing, but I doubt it would be entirely convincing as a primary guideline to determining how much time has passed. I do believe you will 
find evidence that specific characters are aging (that is, time is passing for them) at different rates. You may find clues that in comics published between, say, 1986 and 1999, character X has aged 2 years while character Y has aged 5 years. Some character ages, like other temporal references, will need to be disregarded. 

As you know, I'm proposing having more than one "September" or "Christmas" occupy a given MU year and suggesting we disregard some of those references as "topical," as Olshevsky did. But four a year? If you strung the MCP chronologies together and allowed time for all the stories contained therein to occur in the order we have them, you'd have to be well past ten years since FF 1 by now. 

Take Billy Connors again. Five MU years (from age 11 to age 16) between ASM 365 (published 1992) and SM:QL 3 (published 2002) certainly is feasible. But for Billy to be 11 in ASM 365 is a real stretch. How old was he in ASM 6 (published 1963) -- 4, 5? Now think of everything that occurred in the MU between ASM 6 and 365. Six or seven years for all that to occur? Not likely. For those of you who feel it has some credibility, the Olshevsky calendar has more than that amount of time passing between ASM 6 and stories published in the early '80s. 

So yes, character ages could be useful clues to add to the many other clues we have about time passage in the MU. But I wouldn't construct a calendar based solely or even primarily on those references.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Mar 2004 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Aging
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
As you know, I'm proposing having more than one "September" or "Christmas" occupy a given MU year and suggesting we disregard some of those references as "topical," as Olshevsky did. But four a year? If you strung the MCP chronologies together and allowed time for all the stories contained therein to occur in the order we have them, you'd have to be well past ten years since FF 1 by now. 
<<<


"Four" is simply a number pulled out of a hat. Whether you're talking about two or four or seventeen Christmases a year, if you talk about more than one, the same principle applies. 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
So yes, character ages could be useful clues to add to the many other clues we have about time passage in the MU. 
<<<


Less so, as time marches on. Mary Jane Watson hasn't aged appreciably more than ten years in the almost forty years since we've met her. I daresay that, now that she has approached an almost iconic status, she won't age more than two years over the next fifteen. In the year 2020, she won't have changed at all, other than her hairstyle, but we'll be trying to convince everyone that menopause is just around the corner. 



watching: buffy...again

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Thread 25

Posted: 13 Mar 2004 09:14 pm    Post subject: Preparing for the newest Spiderman title...
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

I found a website where Mark Millar hangs out, (the writer for the newest Spiderman title, simply titled "Spiderman", which makes it's debut in April), and he has dropped some hints about chronological placement... 

I figured I'd share it now, to help in advance for chronology purposes...anyway, he's apparently going to have a rotating crop of villians and gueststars...and the covers to each issue revel who's appearing where: 

Quote: 
>>>
"This moves at a hell of a pace, the first cover featuring everybody, the next with The Avengers, then Electro, then The Vulture, then Doctor Octopus, then the X-Men with Spidey, then all his baddies led by Venom, then Venom defeating Spidey, number nine being Spidey with Black Cat and then... ah, @#$%. Just buy the comics." 
<<<

So in other words, issue #1 features the Green Goblin, ( know this from the previews) 
Issue #2 features the Avengers. 
#3 Electro 
#4 the Vulture 
#5 Doctor Octopus 
#6 Xmen 
#7 Venom, (and the Sinister Six maybe?) 
#8 Venom 
#9 Black Cat 

But here's the really interesting part: When asked by a fan if his story will be connected at all to the events in the other Spidey books, (in other words, is there going to be some respecting continuity), he answers as such: 

Quote: 
>>>
This book is at the heart of the MU. Kingpin, for example, is missing because DD took him down and so I have a replacement when Spider-Man pays a visit to Fisk's old office. The X-Men are Whedon's X-Men and The Avengers are the current line-up. I'm trying to do something a little different with each of these characters, showing them in a whole new light, but it's very much in the current continuity. 

What I wanted to avoid, of course, is the mess the 90s Superman books got into where the writers all had to finish one another's stories. Peter is teaching in High School. The Spectacular adventures are referred to. MJ and he are back together and Aunt May knows who he is, but the first twelve issues feature something dramatic happen that upsets the status quo and, for this reason, this story takes place a little AFTER the current Spider-Man stories in the other titles. I didn't want to bog the other guys down with my story and so this plot is self-contained, but the ramifications will be featured in all the Spidey books. 
<<<
 



It's just so nice to have a writer who respects continuity.  Wait, this is a Marvel Knights book? I thought they were saying they didn't have to respect continuity in other books? 

And the mention of Whedon's Xmen is a nod to the new Xmen title "Astonishing Xmen", so it's the roster of THAT Xmen book which will guest star in "Spiderman"... 

Quote: 
>>>
Just to be clear: The first story in Marvel Knights Spidey takes place THREE MONTHS after any other curent Spidey storyline during the twelve months when the first arc runs. You'll see why. 
<<<


So if the first 12 issues of "Spiderman" (and what volume are we up to with that title?) are one big long story, then going by that above quote, Issue 12 comes in March of 2005...so Issue 1 starts up 3 months after the events of whatever's happening in March 2005 in Amazing and Spectacular Spiderman...am I reading that right?
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 14 Mar 2004 09:43 am    
By Marc-Oliver Frisch

"(and what volume are we up to with that title?)" 

Vol. 2, if the title is indeed just SPIDER-MAN.
_________________
Marc-Oliver Frisch 
POPP'D! - Pop Culture Commentary for the Wicked 

Updated daily.

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Posted: 14 Mar 2004 01:17 pm
By Starman

Marc-Oliver Frisch wrote: 
>>>
"(and what volume are we up to with that title?)" 

Vol. 2, if the title is indeed just SPIDER-MAN. 
<<<


Actually it should be Vol. 3 if it's just Spider-Man (S-M). "Peter Parker, Spider-Man" (PPSM2) of the re-boot was Vol. 2 of "Spider-Man" (S-M). It's only Sensational Spider-Man (SENSM) and Web of Spider-Man (WOSM) of the regular montly core Spider-Man titles that hasn't gotten a second volume yet.
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

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Posted: 14 Mar 2004 09:53 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

It doesn't really work that way, though. 

Sure, PPSM2 was the second volume of the series that began as "Spider-Man" and ended as "Peter Parker: Spider-Man", but since that second series was titled "PP:SM" throughout its entire run -- it doesn't qualify as "Spider-Man volume 2". This new series gets that honor. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Mar 2004 04:27 pm    
By Starman

Okay, but then the original numbering is wrong. From the 30th issues of ASM2 and PPSM2 they had printed the original numbering from the end of the first volumes. ASM2 #30 were also #471 (last issue of ASM were #441 (441+30=471)) and PPSM #30 were also #128 (the last issue of S-M were #98 (98+30=128)). 

But I guess it's a typical procedure by Marvel Comics. To do as they wish and hope no one will notice. The picky "ber-fan-boys" (or how they say it) doesn't matter. 
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

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Posted: 15 Mar 2004 11:19 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Starman wrote: 
>>>
Okay, but then the original numbering is wrong. From the 30th issues of ASM2 and PPSM2 they had printed the original numbering from the end of the first volumes. ASM2 #30 were also #471 (last issue of ASM were #441 (441+30=471)) and PPSM #30 were also #128 (the last issue of S-M were #98 (98+30=128)). 
<<<

I don't get how that's "wrong", unless you're trying to say they made a math error. Or how that relates to the volume number of Millar's upcoming "Spider-man" book. 

To me, they can put whatever they want on the front cover -- I go by what's in the indicia. In my mind, ASM2 lasted 58 issues, and ASM (first series) goes from #1-441, and then from #500-up. PPSM2, since it never switched back to the original numbering in the indicia, remains a separate, second series. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 26

Posted: 17 Mar 2004 10:36 pm    Post subject: Iron Man: The Best Defense
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm currently reading The Best Defense in Iron Man, and have run across a stumper. As a preface, I should mention that I don't have IM3 73, which is Part 1, and my question may be answered there. 

The Best Defense concerns Tony Stark's bid to become Secretary of Defense, presumably replacing the Red Skull, who was outed in the Avengers "Red Zone" storyline in A3 65-70. 

Warbird resigns from the Avengers in A3 70. And yet, she appears, as an Avenger, in IM3 75. 

Possible solutions: 
1. The Best Defense actually occurs before Dell Rusk is named Secretary of Defense. 
2. The Best Defense occurs between pages of A3 70, after Red Skull is defeated, but before Warbird resigns. (I don't have A3 70 in my hands right now, so I don't know if this is even plausible.) 
3. That old standby: Carol's left the Avengers, but has just dropped by to clean out her room. 
4. I'm misreading things. 


watching: leno

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Posted: 18 Mar 2004 12:36 am    
By John Simons

Choice number 3 is your best bet, although I must say Carol does appear to be wearing her classic costume, as opposed to the Copiel hockey-goalie redesign. Guess that one was in the wash-- or cross our fingers maybe she'll ditch it soon and go back to her former duds. 

Of course, you are also assuming that Stark's tenure as Secretary of Defense will be short-lived. If he keeps the job for any considerable period of time, it greatly decreases the chances that the Skull would gain the position after him. 

AND remember that Dell Rusk already held the position as of A3 61, several issues befored Red Zone. So really, theory #1 becomes less and less likely... 

As for theory 2, the epilogue to Red Zone occurs at Avengers mansion "hours later", unless they mean 300 hours later! Everyone is still discussing the fallout of the storyline and Cap is still nursing injuries so I don't think this is doable either.

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Thread 27

Posted: 18 Mar 2004 04:43 pm    Post subject: NXM #154 and the Stepford Cuckoos (SPOILERS!)
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

A while back, after #153 came out, I started a thread where we discussed how to add the Stepford Cuckoos to the MCP ... a link to that thread is below. 

Well, X #154 gives us some more information -- those ARE the Cuckoos in the future, and the reason they lived so long is that they're not entirely human: they've been Weapon Plus Super-Sentinel hybrids all along -- Weapon Fourteen! 

I wondered before if "Stepford Cuckoos" was a nickname or a proper codename ... turns out it's their Weapon Fourteen official alternate codename, like "Wolverine", "Fantomex" or "Ultimaton". And according to X #154, the three surviving girls (Phoebe, Celeste, and one unnamed) were "Stepford Cuckoos versions 01, 03, and 04". Meaning, Esme and Sophie were versions 02 and 05... 

This handily solves my earlier dilemma of "how do we number them on the MCP, given that they were introduced simultaneously?" We can use their own Weapon Plus version codes to number them ... to an extent. 

We now have two groups -- we know that Esme is 02 or 05, for example, but not which one specifically. And we know that Celeste is 01, 03, or 04. 

I suggest we rank them, AS BEST WE CAN, by their version codes -- sorting out the difference by giving the earlier numbers to the ones whose real names were revealed first. 

So, in the 01/03/04 group, Phoebe was named first, then Celeste, then the one who was NEVER named. In the 02/05 group, Esme was named first, then Sophie. 

So their MCP designations, I suggest, should look like this: 

WEAPON FOURTEEN - see STEPFORD CUCKOOS 

STEPFORD CUCKOOS v01 - PHOEBE 
STEPFORD CUCKOOS v02 - ESME 
STEPFORD CUCKOOS v03 - CELESTE 
STEPFORD CUCKOOS v04 
STEPFORD CUCKOOS v05 - SOPHIE 

(Yes, I decided to keep "Cuckoos" pluralized -- because the computer voice that identifies the three remaining Cuckoos in #154 does so as well, labelling them "Stepford Cuckoos//Version01/03/04///Weapon XIV". And I like the idea of labelling them as "v03", say, rather than our usual "III".) 

Thoughts, anyone? 

-Jeph! 

Original Cuckoos thread: 
http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=23

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Thread 28

Posted: 17 Mar 2004 10:19 pm    Post subject: Ugh. Cyclops in NM2 #10.
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Well, fantastic. Cyclops showed up in New Mutants v2 #10, a series that's supposed to take place during his disappearance from X #139-142. 

Any ideas how to sort this one out? We sort of have three options: 

1) The NM2 series takes place before Cyclops rides off in X #139. 
2) Cyclops returns home during the period between X #141-142. 
3) This portion of the NM2 series takes place *after* X #150. (This may be impossible, given that the OLD mansion is still up -- they're going to be building an enormous new mansion to replace it. Check the link below for a picture.) 

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0402/25/xmenhandbook.jpg 

Thoughts? Placing it before X #139 is difficult given the sheer time the NM2 series encompasses, plus all the "summer session/school closing" references in X #138-141. Is it feasible, as Harrison suggested a while back, that Scott came back to the mansion between X #141-142? 

Groar. Thoughts, anyone? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 17 Mar 2004 10:38 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Damn. That sucks. Wasn't this the one thing you and Paul B. were crossing your fingers and desperately hoping wouldn't happen before the May reboot of all the Xmen titles? 

We just can't win it seems.... 

I don't see how we could have Cyclops return home between X 141 and 142....the New Xmen issues just don't read like he'd been home since fleeing the mansion after his affair with Emma had been discovered....
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 17 Mar 2004 11:39 pm    
By david

Hmmm. Couldn't it take place during X 139? 
Is there a big enough gap to have Cyclops teach a class somewhere between pages 1-18 (he's seen on the motorcycle in panel 4) and pages 19-22 (Wolverine comforting Emma / Beast finding Emma's shattered body)? Otherwise I choose option 2.

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Posted: 18 Mar 2004 12:24 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Damn. That sucks. Wasn't this the one thing you and Paul B. were crossing your fingers and desperately hoping wouldn't happen? 
<<<

It was, indeed, the ONE thing we were hoping wouldn't happen. Bah! 

Quote: 
>>>
Couldn't it take place during X 139? 
<<<

Probably not, no. I'm looking at the problem from a number of different angles right now, but -- the only break in X #139 is just AFTER Scott leaves, before Emma is shot. And that's shortly AFTER the Riot, judging by the graffitti still on the walls, and X #140 tells us that the students haven't left yet for summer break. Meanwhile, the NM2 series takes place over a number of weeks, and from the beginning has been set in the summer semester. From a school calendar standpoint, NM2 #1-10 seem to occur after X #141. 

I'm looking at all possible places for Scott to have returned home briefly -- between pp.20-21 of X #139, between X #141-142, between X #142-143 -- and they're all equally implausible. Honestly, unfortunately, the most acceptable scenario I can see, given ALL the evidence, is Scott returning home sometime between X #141-142. 

Luckily he's not teaching a class in NM2 #10 -- he's just lifting weights in the basement -- so his assertations in X #141-145 that he's quit the X-Men can still carry weight. He could just be slinking around the mansion moping, and leaving at night to go drink. 

(And just to head off a discussion on this point -- even though in X #142, Logan tells Scott that he's "a prime suspect" in Emma's shooting -- it's bull, as Emma's shooting was solved by the end of #141, and Logan knows it. Logan is likely referring to Scott being suspected of attacking Sage -- a crime that was unsolved until X #146. So Logan's statement *doesn't* imply that Scott hasn't been home since #139 -- he could just be summing up Scott's current situation: slunk home to the mansion, suspected in whispers of attacking Sage, and out drinking because he's depressed that everyone thinks that little of him.) 

And, honestly, if Scott was meant to have been away for the entire duration of NM2 #1-13 -- a duration which is getting longer and longer -- wouldn't he have come home at SOME point, just to get a change of clothes? Where has he been *sleeping* for the month or more that NM2 #1-10 cover, anyway? 

Bah. It's a mess -- but right now I'm going to just sigh and assume that, at some point between X #141-142, Scott slunk back home -- although he was persona non grata for a while, kept to himself in the weight room a lot, and went out drinking when the unspoken, gossipy rumors that he'd attacked Sage got too much to bear. 

However, let's try not to put any MORE Cyclops-in-the-mansion appearances in this gap... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 18 Mar 2004 01:04 am 
By david

Darn, there goes that theory out the window!  By the way, why would he attack Sage in the first place?

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Posted: 18 Mar 2004 10:16 pm    Post subject: Rationalizing
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Well, they went ahead and did the one thing that would muck up the works. It's absolutely clear that X 142 was written with the idea that Scott has not been back to the mansion since he took off in X 139. Let's not kid ourselves on that matter. 

But the writers of the X-books have forced us to make sense out of their continuity errors. I think Jeph is on the right track, at least given the evidence we currently have to work with. I'll offer an elaboration: 

Cyclops slunk back to the Institute earlier in the morning of NM2 10, probably to collect some things, but still determined to leave the X-Men. He catches up on events at the school, including the shooting and subsequent healing of Emma and the latest goings on with the new students. He asks to speak to Rahne in the gym and questions her recklessness and reasons for returning. He sounds like the "boy scout X-Man" in this scene, but his questioning Rahne's fitness to teach and her motivations for returning echo his questions about himself. Scott probably doesn't feel great about messing up his interaction with Rahne. Scott probably has a tete-a-tete with Xavier, who can't persuade Scott to stay. One person Scott does not see while at the Institute is Logan, who is with Warren, Kurt, and Paige in Kentucky on this day. It is doubtful Scott interacts with either Emma or Jean. Scott leaves without spending the night, and Logan returns from Kentucky. 

A very short time later (I'm hoping for that same night or at most the night after. Let's see how much time NM2 11-12 end up occupying), Logan unintentionally finds Scott drowning his sorrows at the Hellfire Club. Scott asks Logan if the Professor sent him to talk him out of leaving the X-Men, which could imply that Scott and Xavier had a recent interchange about the subject. Logan tells him about Emma being shot, because he doesn't know that Scott's been informed about it already (remember he wasn't around). Scott isn't the least bit phased by the news of Emma's shooting because he already knows she's okay. Logan tells Scott he's a prime suspect (because there are no other real leads at this point), although no one's really acting on that theory. 

So yes, this could still work...so far. But it's not a very neat and tidy sequence of continuity by any means.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 18 Mar 2004 10:54 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Good work, Paul. Do you think your "Scott talked to Xavier" theory also workswith Scott's line to Xavier in #146, "I'm sorry I ran out on the X-Men the way I did, sir! I'll try to explain later"? 

This is one of those cases where the pieces Just Don't Fit -- and we have to sigh, accept the hiccup, rationalize off the hiccup, list the hiccup in the MCP even though it doesn't make any sense at face value, and answer questions from newbies about the hiccup's placement on the forum for the rest of our days. 

Hey, here's a thought: apart from the summer references, what ELSE about the NM2 series forces it to occur in summer? And how many summer references are there? I mean, if we ignored the "summer semester" verbal references ... is there anything else that could stop us from trying to slot NM2 #1-10 into the SPRING semester, *prior* to the Riot? 

Oh, wait, yes. Magma was healed in NM2 #8, then joined up with the X-Treme Team a short time later in XX #34. XX has been occuring post-Riot since #24 ... so yeah, NM2 #8 should definitely be post-Riot as well. 

Sigh. Okay, so we keep the "summer" references, and Cyclops' chronology takes a hit. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 19 Mar 2004 06:55 am    Post subject: Scott and Xavier
By Paul Bourcier

Quote: 
>>>
Do you think your "Scott talked to Xavier" theory also workswith Scott's line to Xavier in #146, "I'm sorry I ran out on the X-Men the way I did, sir! I'll try to explain later"? 
<<<



Good point. The apology could be explained in my scenario, but not the explaining later. So Scott missed Xavier as well, underscoring the fact that his visit to the Institute needs to be short. When Logan caught up with him, Scott figured Xavier caught wind of his visit and sent Wolvie off after him. 

Like I said, this is obviously not the way the story was intended to be written, but the writers and editors at Marvel brought these compromises in storyline on themselves by being loose with continuity.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 29

Posted: 16 Mar 2004 07:38 pm    Post subject: Hulk chronology error: Mighty Thor #385
By Jonathanos

According to the Hulk's chronology page, Mighty Thor #385 occurs between IH #323 and 324. 

This is not possible. 

At the end of IH #323, the grey Hulk personality resurfaced while the Hulk of Mighty Thor #385 was speaking in third person. Also, the Hulk was in S.H.I.E.L.D. custody at the end of IH #323. 

IMO, the issue fits best right after IH Annual #14 (which itself occurs between the pages of IH #314). The Hulk would have minimal influence from Banner (MT #385 says Banner's conscience no longer dwells in the Hulk) and it would help explain why the Hulk did not get to the gamma bomb site before Samson (the Hulk was only captured in the annual for a few hours and imo a further delay would be needed to offset his headstart on Samson).

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Posted: 19 Mar 2004 10:03 am    
By Jonathanos

Marvel Fanfare #29 cannot fit between IH #314 and 315. The Hulk was kayoed by Samson in #314 and captured. Don't know about the Graphic Novel that's been placed between as I don't have it.

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Posted: 19 Mar 2004 04:03 pm    
By Starman

Jonathanos wrote: 
Marvel Fanfare #29 cannot fit between IH #314 and 315. The Hulk was kayoed by Samson in #314 and captured. 


Marvel Fanfare #29 could fit between IH #315 and #316, as he escapes in the end of #315.
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Mar 2004 09:54 pm    
By Jonathanos

That could be. The only problem with it is that the Hulk spoke at the end of the Fanfare issue. When Samson removed all of Bruce Banner (personalities, memory, etc) from the body, the body never spoke in the main title. 

JB intended this story to occur during the Bannerless/Mindless Hulk era but was taken off the title before he finished the storyline. The Hulk in Secret Wars II was intended to be the Bannerless/Mindless Hulk but he was speaking in typical Hulk speak. 

I suppose one could fit Thor #385, the Fanfare issue, and the Secret Wars II issue as occuring after Hulk Annual #14 and say that all of those events occurred as the Hulk was heading to the site of the original g-bomb test (between the pages of IH #314). 

It could work. Samson remarked that he shouldn't have beaten the Hulk to the site yet had. After being spotted by a kid in the opening of Hulk #314, the Hulk was captured by a group wanting to learn how to attain Hulk-like power and was held for a few hours (two or three, perhaps). 

Samson heard about the Hulk sighting over the radio. It would take some time for the story to get out. Having the Hulk encounter Thor definitely adds reason for the delay in getting to the g-bomb site. The story in Fanfare only lasted a couple minutes and the Beyonder encounter was likewise brief.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Mar 2004 10:22 pm    
By Starman

I buy that. 

I wonder thou in what order it makes most sense to sort the issues. I don't have the Thor issue, so I'm not sure where to place it, but I do have the other related issues.
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Mar 2004 09:17 am 
By Jonathanos

I glanced at IH #314. Something had to have held the Hulk up because it was several hours before Samson heard about the Hulk sighting. 

Thor #385 would have to be the first event after the annual. The battle occurs just west of the Mississippi while Fanfare #29 and Secret Wars #8 occur in southwest deserts. St. Johns' ship was forced to land at the end of the annual and it could just as easily have landed near the Mississippi as anywhere. 

I would place the Fanfare issue next. The Hulk gains a "friend" then loses him. That would typically place him in a foul mood-- which is perfect for the Beyonder encounter. 

There's a problem with placing SW #8 here, though. The Beyonder wanted to study Bruce Banner persona but said it was missing. The issue clearly intends this to be post-IH #315 but the Hulk's behavior denies it. 

Perhaps the Beyonder was mistaken? The distance between the Hulk and Banner personas at the time of IH #314 may have caused the Beyonder to believe Banner was missing when he was, in fact, deeply suppressed. Dr. Strange was fooled into thinking the Banner persona was dead, after all.

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Thread 30

Posted: 20 Mar 2004 11:57 am    Post subject: Odin chronology nits; Thor I#311-313
By Scathach80

ODIN [ASGARDIAN] 
T 311/2 
T 312/2 
T 313/2 
T 314/2 
T 400/4 
.......... 
JIM -1 
JIM 85 

I see you have the Thor I#311-313 back-ups taking place as before JIM-1. However, those back-ups actually take place in the modern era, after the events of Thor I#301. 

How do I know this? In Defenders I#109, Odin meets up with the Valkyrie, and he mentions that he asked her to resume her position as leader of the Valkyrior in Thor I#311. 

On page 12, Odin states "Yea-and after the Celestial menace was passed [i.e. after Thor I#300], I e'en summoned thee to return to the head of the Valkyrior. You refused". And an editorial footnote references Thor#311 and Defenders#95. 

Remember, not all Tales of Asgard stories are flashbacks.

*********************************************************************************************

Thread 31

Posted: 20 Mar 2004 02:44 pm    Post subject: RICARDO JONES...LUNATIK...MANITOU
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

new entries marked ** 


JONES, RICARDO 

**FF 50 (14p3-14p6) 
**FF 51 
(FF 53 Ricardo Jones is NOT in FF 53) 


LUNATIK/ARISEN TYRK 

DEF 62-FB 
**DEF 64 
DEF 65 

. . .Also re DEF 64: 
. . .DOLLAR BILL 
. . .DEF 63-BTS 
. . .DEF 64-BTS (should be DEF 64; Dollar Bill is definitely in DEF 64, not just a BTS) 
. . .DEF 65 


MANITOU 

**GR2 49 
**GR2 50 
IG 2 


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#165

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Thread 32

Posted: 21 Mar 2004 05:41 pm    Post subject: Valeria; actually two different characters
By Scathach80

The Valeria chronology is a bit of a problem. 

The Valeria from Strange Tales#103 is actually an alien from another dimension. The Valeria from H2 144 and FF3 67 is the Doctor Doom character. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/valeriadoom.htm 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/fifthdim.htm#Valeria 

Suggestion? For the moment: 

VALERIA [Fifth Dimensional Alien] 
ST 103 
FF 159 
FF 161 
FF 162

***********************************************************************************************

Thread 33

Posted: 21 Mar 2004 12:43 am    Post subject: Black Knight V/Dane Whitman and the Exiles
By Jim Smith

Black Knight's listing includes EX 4 in between A 380 and HFH 2. Does this code refer to Marvel's current Exiles series, or to Malibu's All-New Exiles, which was being published during Dane's time in the Ultraverse? Does the MCP even consider the Ultraverse appearances of MU characters like Sersi and the Juggernaut?

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2004 02:24 am    
By Peter Fabricius

It is the Malibu comic, but he does as far as I can tell, not appear in the book, He is in Ultraforce #4, and this is a lead-in to Exiles #4. 
In Exiles Cromwell refers to being put in charge by Black Knight, so perhaps a BTS is in order.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2004 06:55 pm
By Jim Smith

I'm confused. If EX refers to Malibu's Exiles, then what's the code for Marvel's Exiles? Or is Exiles not considered canon? And why not, if the Ultraverse is canon?

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2004 07:58 pm
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jim Smith wrote: 
>>>
If EX refers to Malibu's Exiles, then what's the code for Marvel's Exiles? 
<<<


It hasn't been addressed yet, because none of the books have been added to the project, but I suspect the code will be EX2. 


watching: simpsons

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2004 09:09 pm    Post subject: Exiles
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Technically, the code would be EX3, since Malibu had two runs of Exiles. It depends on how much of the Malibu Universe ends up on the MCP. IIRC, only the second Malibu Exiles series was from the Marvel crossover period. If the first series is discounted from the MCP, then I suppose the second series ("All New Exiles") could be coded "EX" and the current Marvel series "EX2."
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Mar 2004 12:52 am    
By Peter Fabricius

Quote: 
>>>
If the first series is discounted from the MCP, then I suppose the second series ("All New Exiles") could be coded "EX" and the current Marvel series "EX2. 
<<<

Personally I think that the system should leave room for the first series, since it would be possible to add the first at a later date, or in a seperate project using the same codes.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Mar 2004 12:33 pm    
By Ant-Man

Does it make any difference that the title of the series in question was THE ALL NEW EXILES ? 
It might make it easier to distinguish (that is the title from both cover and indicia)

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Thread 34

Posted: 23 Mar 2004 08:56 pm    Post subject: ASM 429
By Dhall

In Daredevil's listing: 

ASM 429 
UX 351 
DD 371 

In X-Man's listing: 
Xm 33 
DD 371 
ASM 429 

DD's listing has to be wrong, as in ASm 429, DD is recovering from the bullet wound, he's already been patched up. He was patched up in UX 351/DD 371, putting ASM 429 after DD 371, just like in X-Man's listing. 

Daredevil 
UX 351 
DD 371 
**ASM 429 


Next problem: 

Dardevil has Elektra 10 and 11 as occutring before UX 351, whereas 

Wolverine has it as such: 

X 71 
UX 351 
UX 352 
ELEK 10 
ASM 429 

I don't own Elektra 11, but elek 10 cannot come both before and after UX 351. Either these two come before DD 368, or after 371, so either the DD listing is wrong, or the Wolverine listing is wrong. 

Dave Hall

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Mar 2004 09:40 pm    Post subject: Daredevil's wound
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
DD's listing has to be wrong, as in ASm 429, DD is recovering from the bullet wound, he's already been patched up. He was patched up in UX 351/DD 371, putting ASM 429 after DD 371, just like in X-Man's listing.  
<<<


I can't say I looked terribly closely at the comics involved, but I think you're misinterpreting the sequence of events. DD gets shot in DD 368. His wound is tended to in DD 369. He's healing in ASM 429, but then his wound becomes infected in UX 351 and he's treated there and in DD 371. 

Note, though, the remarkable nature of the wound -- it moves around his body! In DD 369 we see the wound in his left chest, it's referred to as being in his left shoulder in ASM 429, then in UX 351 it's in his right side! That's what I call continuity. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Mar 2004 09:54 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

"Magic bullet". 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Mar 2004 10:42 pm 
By Dhall

I don't have DD 369 or 370, just 368 and 371. 

If your explanation of events is accurate then please explain and correct X-Man's listing which is at odd's with DD's. 

X-Man 
XM 33 
DD 371 
ASM 429 

They're not both correct...... 

Dave Hall

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Mar 2004 11:31 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Well-- 

If Daredevil's listing is the correct one, doesn't it seem pretty intuitive how to fix X-Man's? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2004 07:15 am    
By Dhall

And Wolverine's and Beast's...... 

Besides which are we sure Paul is correct? IN DD 368 Matt makes a dinner date with Karen. 371 is all about how he hasn't seen her (or Foggy or anyone but the Widow) since he got shot and had to break the date. (and again I don't have 369 and 370 to check) So it seems awfully weird that in ASM 429 Matt's hanging around with Foggy like nothing has happened (other than the bandage.) It seems like Foggy's already seen him in this condition, and there are no references about say how mad Karen's going to be about breaking thier date, etc., like you would expect to see if ASM 429 happened before DD 371. 

Dave Hall

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2004 07:17 am    Post subject: X-Man
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
If your explanation of events is accurate then please explain and correct X-Man's listing which is at odd's with DD's. 

X-Man 
XM 33 
DD 371 
ASM 429 
<<< 


Obviously, ASM 429 would go before DD 371. However, the exact sequence relative to issues of XM is open to debate. My preliminary analysis of this time period (in preparation for extending the calendar back) indicates that ASM 429 goes before XM 30 while DD 371 goes after XM 35. All of these issues occur in the span of a few weeks around the time of Heroes Return.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2004 08:10 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
there are no references about say how mad Karen's going to be about breaking thier date, etc., like you would expect to see if ASM 429 happened before DD 371. 
<<<


You can't do that. Can't use absence of evidence as evidence. The most likely scenario is that Matt didn't mention it because it wasn't germane to the story they were trying to tell. 


watching: american morning

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Thread 35

Posted: 24 Mar 2004 10:03 am    Post subject: MINDBLAST...MONSTER FROM THE LOST LAGOON...MYSTIQUE
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

new entries marked ** 


MINDBLAST 

I dont know what the 4 Femme Fatales look like in their civvies, but in ASM 342 6p3, Doc Turner (aks Chameleon) addesses four out-of-costume women. The next time we see Turner he is with the 4 Femme Fatales. Are the four females the Femme Fatales? Ive had a question mark on this panel for a decade. Opinions? 

So maybe. 
MINDBLAST 
ASM 340 
** ASM 342 
ASM 343 

BLOODLUST 
ASM 340 
** ASM 342 
ASM 343 

KNOCKOUT 
ASM 340 
** ASM 342 
ASM 343 

WHIPLASH II/ 
ASM 340 
**ASM 342 
ASM 343 


MONSTER FROM THE LOST LAGOON 

FF 97 
**FF 124 
FF 125 


MYSTIQUE/RAVEN DARKHOLME/"MALLORY BRICKMAN"/"B. BYRON BIGGS"/"RONNIE LAKE"/"DALE FYFE" 

MSM 18 
**MSM 23 (as Raven Darkholme 16p3-16p4) 
M/SH3 10/3-BTS 


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#166

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2004 10:48 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
MYSTIQUE 

MSM 18 
**MSM 23 (as Raven Darkholme 16p3-16p4) 
M/SH3 10/3-BTS 
<<<


Are you sure you don't mean MSM 22? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2004 10:53 am    Post subject: mystique
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

Damn! caught again ! <blush> 


yes MSM 22 for sure 


thx Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2004 02:45 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

Quote: 
>>>
I dont know what the 4 Femme Fatales look like in their civvies, but in ASM 342 6p3, Doc Turner (as Chameleon) addesses four out-of-costume women. The next time we see Turner he is with the 4 Femme Fatales. Are the four females the Femme Fatales? Ive had a question mark on this panel for a decade. Opinions? 
<<<


Knockout's skin color doesn't match any of the four women seen, but that could just be an error by the colorist, and their connection to the Chameleon is otherwise unexplained. 
So I think they were supposed to be the Femme Fatales. 
Two of them, the one in the green dress and the black-haired, are also seen in ASM341, you can also see the legs of a third, if we are assuming they are dressed the same, this is most likely the blonde. 
A pair of female hands can also be seen, but they could belong to woman #3. 
The girl in the green dress is called Charlene. 
This is on the pages numbered 6 and 8
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

**********************************************************************************************

Thread 36

Posted: 17 Mar 2004 12:52 pm    Post subject: Dr. Doom in UX 145-147 should not be BTS
By electronicLad

I was just reading theses issues last night, and I believe Dr. Doom should not be listed as behind the scenes for these issues. 

-electronicLad

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Mar 2004 02:57 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

Sorry, but John Byrne revealed in Fantastic Four #258 that it was not the real Doctor Doom, but a robot. The real Doom would never have let Arcade survive lighting a match on his armor.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Mar 2004 07:18 pm    
By electronicLad

Ahhh, 
A robot, of course. I should have known better. So, was this a robot created by the real Dr. Doom, and that is why he was listed at behind the scenes?

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Mar 2004 07:59 pm  
By ADMINISTRATOR

electronicLad wrote: 
So, was this a robot created by the real Dr. Doom, and that is why he was listed at behind the scenes? 


I think you would need more than that for a BTS notation. Something like, operating under direct orders. 


watching: larry king

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2004 03:02 pm    
By Ant-Man

Doombots and LMDs can be a real pain in the butt!

**********************************************************************************************

Thread 37

Posted: 16 Feb 2004 08:10 pm    Post subject: heroes reborn: doom
By poetdowns

Salut, 
Can anyone tell me what Heroes Reborn: Doom, and H.R.: Doomsday, are about? I've read the H.R. ls, but then i saw those books listed with H.R. I'm in this podunk little town, and there's a lot of books that i never see hit the shelf. 
Thanks, 
Poet

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Mar 2004 03:20 pm    Post subject: Heroes Reborn: Doom and Doomsday
By garbonzo

Heroes Reborn: Doomsday is the first appearnace of Doom on the Counter Earth of Heroes Reborn after the heroes returned to Earth 616. It serves as the first bookend to the Heroes Reborn one shots that chronicled the lives of the people and heroes of the counter-earth after the heores left. 

Heroes Reborn: Doom shows how Doom and his followers transported that Earth into the Earth 616 universe where it currently resides in orbit opposite Earth 616 (unless something has happened to it since it was lsat seen in the pages of Thunderbolts?). This is the other bookend. 

garbonzo

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Thread 38

Posted: 26 Mar 2004 04:02 pm    Post subject: Iron Monger
By garbonzo

The chronology for Iron Monger Currently Reads: 

IRON MONGER 
CA 419 


But, there is an appearance by someone wearing the Iron Monger Armor in IM 212. The identity of the person is never revealed to be more than "just some guy in the suit." Is this the same character, and if so, I believe the chronology should read: 

Iron Monger 
IM 212 *** 
CA 419 

Any thoughts?? 


garbonzo

**************************************************************************************************

Thread 39

Posted: 29 Mar 2004 09:44 am    Post subject: N'GASSI...NANNY II...NOBILUS
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

new entries marked ** 

N'GASSI 

BP 9 
**BP 10 
BP 11 


NANNY II 

UX 267 
**GENX 3 
GENX 4 


NOBILUS 

**T 420 Nobilus right arm visible on pg 18 
T 422 


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#167

*******************************************************************************************

Thread 40

Posted: 29 Mar 2004 10:32 am    Post subject: Nova Chronology
By RLG

>>Reading over MTIO@3, I noticed a reference to NOVA #19 in which Nova first encounters Blackout. In MTIO@3 (3p2), Nova states, "Blackout can't be back.. not already!" Currently, NOVA #19 takes place after MTIO@3. 

>>I propose to move Nova's appearance in NOVA #19 to an earlier date - just after NOVA #18/2. 

>>Also, school is in session in Nova #19. Placing the story after MTIO@3 would mean it occured sometime in June, YEAR 9. Placing the story just after NOVA #18/2 would put it as occuring around April (or May) - a better fit. 

>>(calendar references from Paul B's Avengers calendar and Geroge O's work) 

- RLG

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Mar 2004 04:31 pm    Post subject: Nova
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Good call, RLG. The reason that NOVA 19 appears in the MCP after M/TIO@ 3 is that the Marvel Comics Index #8B notes that M/TIO@ 3 occurs between NOVA 18/2 and 19. 

But yes, you're right. Although I wouldn't push NOVA 19 back as far as you suggest. I would keep NOVA 19 after DEF 64 and place it right before M/TIO@ 3. Nova's reference to Blackout in the latter suggests that he fought the villain very recently. The reference to the math test "tomorrow" in NOVA 19 might be to a final exam in that subject. (I believe the "make-up" final in NOVA 20 is in Spanish, and that it's a "make-up" because Rich needs to pull his grade up after flunking a so-called "final" in NOVA 16 (which I'm interpreting as a mid-term exam a couple of months earlier).
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 41

Posted: 29 Mar 2004 10:18 am    Post subject: Black Panther in KS
By Thom

As I was checking Black Panther's chronology, I saw you mention him appearing in KS, Korvac Saga. 

Is KS the Avengers trade paperback of that storyline, or something else? 

And if it is, you mean there's a new story in it?
_________________
The Brian Jonestown Massacre Rules OK!

			*	*	

Posted: 29 Mar 2004 11:18 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Yes, it is the Korvac Saga TPB. And yes, there's four pages of new material at the end. However, those pages are only in the FIRST printing ... you won't find them in the recent "Avengers Legends vol. 2: the Korvac Saga" re-release. 

Didn't we just answer this same question a month ago? maybe we should have something in the FAQ about how certain TPBs actually contain additional canon material... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Mar 2004 06:36 am    
By Thom

That would be an excellent idea!
_________________
The Brian Jonestown Massacre Rules OK!

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Thread 42

Posted: 09 Mar 2004 11:27 pm    Post subject: Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #9
By Mart

What with the first three issues of Ultimate Fantastic Four establishing a completely different origin story to that recalled in Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #9 (And the lack of seriousness that #9 is written with.) am I right in thinking that the book is no longer cannonical?

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Mar 2004 02:12 am    
By Peter Fabricius

Well, I just reread Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #9, and as far as I can see, the origin given is the official, non-classified, version, as told by a PR person. It is not referred to by any of the FF. 
It could be merely the version that they want people to belive. 

So I think it can be ignored.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Mar 2004 01:01 pm    
By PopularLoser

I recall Mark Millar (one of the UFF cowriters) saying that he thought of a way to fit Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #9 in with Ultimate Fantastic Four. But Millar said this before it was announced that Warren Ellis would be taking over the writing of Ultimate Fantasic Four after #6, so I don't know if that's still the plan. Only time will tell.
_________________
<Insert Signature Here>

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Mar 2004 04:05 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

As I understand it, Bendis' line in interviews is that Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #9 isn't canon.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Mar 2004 12:01 pm 
By PopularLoser

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
As I understand it, Bendis' line in interviews is that Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #9 isn't canon. 
<<<


That is true. Bendis said it was just supposed to be a joke. But Millar did say that he thought of a way to make it fit. 

Here's a quote from an interview at WizardUniverse.com 

Mark Millar wrote: 
>>>
"Itll tie into the rest of the Ultimate Universe 100 percent. The Ultimate Universe really does all tie together. The only thing that doesnt fit is the Ultimate Team-Up Fantastic Four story, but this morning I actually came up with a way itll fit in as well. Its utterly insane, but Im going to try to convince everyone that it works. Its kind of bugged me, so Ive come up with this insane plan that ties it all together. Itll just be explained in one panel."  
<<<


As I said though, I don't know if this is still a go due to the fact that Ellis is taking over with issue #7.
_________________
<Insert Signature Here>

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Mar 2004 04:16 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

As matters stand, I'm still inclined to ignore UMTU #9 - aside from anything else, it has Skrulls in it (and the Ultimate Skrulls are supposed to be the Chitauri in ULTIMATES, as a couple of lines of dialogue quietly confirm). Plus, it has the FF learning Spider-Man's secret identity, which they subsequently learn all over again in Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special. And the author didn't intend it to be canon. 

But hey, if Millar can make it work, then we shall see.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Mar 2004 04:33 pm 
By PopularLoser

Agreed.
_________________
<Insert Signature Here>

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Thread 43

Posted: 27 Feb 2004 01:20 am    Post subject: The wedding of Scott and Jean (warning: long)
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

The Wedding of Scott Summers and Jean Grey 

incorporating: 
- What If? v2 #60  "a What If X-Men Wedding Album" 
- Uncanny X-Men #310  "Show Me the Way to Go Home" 
- X-Men #30  "The Ties That Bind" 
- X-Men: the Wedding Album magazine  "Something Old, Something New, Something Borrowed, Something Blue & Gold" / "Cut to the Video" / Scott and Jean's thank-you card 

I decided to post this in the "issue analysis" forum, because that's essentially what it is  but as usual with my analyses, I end up suggesting a huge bunch of tangentially-related changes and updates to the MCP. Plus, the Wedding Album drops a boatload of flashbacks into the early lives of Scott, Jean, and Prof. X  so this isnt your typical list of who's in which issue. I thought I'd warn you ahead of time, to keep an eye out for all the alterations I'm suggesting. 

Oh, and I'm aware that all of the issues in question are first-Gap books, but Russ doesn't own What If v2 #60 or the Wedding Album, and I checked with him before writing these up  and unfortunately, I couldn't really do a proper write-up of the What If issue and the Album without including UX #310 and X #30. 

Enjoy 
-Jeph! 

-------- 

X-Men: the Wedding Album (which I suggest listing as X:WA for short), story #1: 

Synopsis: 
The day before the wedding, Jubilee hangs out with Jean and chats about the wedding  and, after Jean leaves, reads her diary. The "reading the diary" section contains several flashbacks  some new, some not  and has entries written by Jean at several points in the past. The story ends with a double-page sketch of Jean's dress by designer Nicole Miller, Jean's friend from her modeling days, along with a note from Jean to her mother. 

(I'm not sure what designation we should use to denote where in someone's chronology they've written a note or diary entry, but I'll just use "BTS"  as Jean herself doesn't appear, but her writing from those points in time does.) 

The note at the back should probably go first, before the actual story  the story takes place the day before the wedding, and yet the note sounds like it was written a little earlier. In it, Jean tells her mother that she can't come home for a day, as she's too busy with flowers and caterers and such, but she hopes to see her parents "on the 7th". If the wedding was tomorrow, Jean would have said "tomorrow"  plus, Jean is physically mailing her mother the sketch of the dress along with the note, and mail takes more than one day to be delivered. 

Appearances: 
Jubilee, Jean, Iceman and Storm, with a BTS off-panel appearance by Nicole Miller, who delivers the dress. Jean says to the departing Nicole "see you at the wedding", so we can infer that Nicole is in the crowd in X-Men #30 as well. (Nicole Miller, by the way, is a real person  a designer who came up with Jean's wedding dress.) 

Temporal/Calendar references: 
One afternoon. It's snowing, with snow on the ground and green and brown leaves blowing around. Storm mentions "tomorrow's ceremony"  the note says that the wedding is "the 7th", and X #30 says that it's "January". Also, UX #309 establishes that the wedding is on a "Saturday" -- so this story, the day before the wedding, takes place on Friday, January 6th. "January" could be a topical reference, though, as that's the month the issue was published. 


The note (pp.18-19): 
Appearances: Jean Grey, BTS 
Temporal / calendar references: the wedding is "the 7th". This seems like a few days before. 


Diary flashbacks: 
Each diary flashback consists of a diary entry written by Jean, and one image from that time period. As none of the images are of Jean actually writing in the diary, the visual flashbacks and the BTS entries for when Jean wrote in the diary could conceivably be (and in some cases, are) in different places in Jean's chronology. 

- Entry #1 
New visual. Shortly after Prof. X helps Jean recover from the mental shock of Annie's death. This flashback fits in-between pp.5-6 of Bizarre Adventures #27 FB. P.5 ends with a doctor suggesting that Prof. X help Jean, and p.6 begins at the mansion, with him tutoring her in her TK abilities  so this flashback, where she's still in the hospital, should fit in-between. 

Appearances: Jean, Prof. X 
Temporal / calendar references: none. 


- Entry #2 
New visual. Jean is living at the mansion, and Xavier is helping her deal with the initial stages of her mutation. She's writing mainly about a newfound appetite for knowledge, and says her head "feels strange"  but doesn't mention telekinesis at all, and doesn't seem comfortable with the word "mutation", so I'm placing this before her TK powers developed. (As in, also before BIZADV 27-FB p.6.) Bizarre Adventures tells us that Prof. X "simultaneously" sealed off her TP and helped her hone her TK, so I assume they all occurred while she was living at the mansion. 

Appearances: Jean. Prof. X 
Temporal / calendar references: none. 


- Entry #3 
New visual. Jean writes about "meeting" Scott for the first time, mentally, while helping Prof. X calibrate Cerebro. Occurs the day after the scene in CX #42/2 where young Scott and Jean meet. The MCP already has a listing for this scene for some reason, even though it doesn't have the rest of the issue  but it's in the wrong spot. It's currently just before CX #42/2, as opposed to just after it. (Also, the MCP lists "Professor Xavier and the X-Men" #1 as occurring before CX #42/2  and that's in the wrong spot as well. Even if that issue IS canon, which I find dubious, it's a retelling of UX #1 with no flashbacks to the time period of CX #42/2.) 

Appearances: Jean, Prof. X, astral image of Scott 
Temporal / calendar references: Jean has been "weirded out by all the things [she] can do with [her] mind" for "weeks now". She met Scott over Cerebro "last night". 


- Entry #4 
New visual. Jean meets Scott in person for the first time, as he takes her suitcase the day she arrives to join the X-Men. This is an example of an entry where the visual FB doesn't match the time of the diary entry  Scott taking Jean's bag is a new scene, and occurs between pages of UX #1  specifically on p.8, between panels 2-3. The diary entry must have been written shortly afterwards  after Jean is formally introduced to the X-Men on pp.8-11. It also needs to have been written before the X-Men's fight with Magneto, since the *next* entry details that fight. She refers to Cyclops as "Slim", and I posit that she wrote the entry in-between p.11 (the end of her arrival/introduction scene) and p.16 (being called off to fight Magneto) of UX #1. 

Appearances (visual): Jean, Scott. 
Appearances (diary entry): Jean, BTS 
Temporal / calendar references: Green grass. Jean says that Scott "looked like [he] could have been [the boy she met in CX #42/2] several years later." 

Now, this diary entry tells us that UX #1 "was the first time [Jean] returned to the mansion since the Professor cured" her, and she recognizes Scott as the boy she met in CX #42/2 "several years later". Currently the MCP has CX #42/2 placed after UX #-1, where Jean is eleven and living at home, but I'd like to move it to beforehand. 

We're told here that Jean hasn't been back to the mansion since Prof. X cured her. That implies that CX #42/2, where Jean is helping calibrate Cerebro, occurs during the period where Jean was still living at the mansion, being cured and tutored in her TK powers. However, in UX #-1, Jean is living at home again, and she and her father mention how Prof. X helped her, past tense, "become normal again". So, by UX #-1, she's cured  meaning she won't go back to the mansion until UX #1  and meaning that CX #42/2 (and the corresponding X:WA FB) should occur *before* UX #-1. Which in turn fits with the notion that CX #42/2 is "several years" before UX #1. 

CX #42/2 should therefore be moved back. UX #-1 can stay where it is, before XMF #3  in UX #-1 Jean is eleven, and in XMF #3 she's a freshman in high school. Moving this story back, by the way, doesn't seem to affect the chronology of Cyclops or Prof. X (or Mr. Sinister, who also appears in the story). 

Also, UX #273-FB needs to be moved back as well, since it corresponds to CX #42/2  in the FB, Prof. X and Moira MacTaggert are introducing Jean to Cerebro, so it should remain just prior to CX #42/2. As far as I can tell, moving this flashback back doesn't affect Prof. X or Moira's chronologies. 

By the way, the MCP's entry for UX #308-FB is slightly off. In fact, I'm not even sure why it's in here, since UX #308 is a Gap book, and the main issue isn't in anyone's listings  however, you currently have the FB placed between pages of UX #1. Unfortunately, there's not really any room for it there  it fits better just after UX #1 ends. In UX #1 p.16, Jean is admiring her new costume in the mirror, as the boys ogle her  the distinct impression is that this is the first time she's worn this outfit  and she is immediately called away to fight Magneto. However, in UX #308-FB, she's wearing her costume and walking into the Danger Room. Given the way the boys wouldn't leave her alone throughout UX #1, you'd think that  if UX #308-FB occurred during UX #1  they'd be following her around then too, and would have seen her in the outfit prior to UX #1 p.16. And there's no time between p.16 and the fight with Magneto for the scene to occur, either. It fits best after UX #1 ends  but before UX #2, since UX #308-FB is Jean's first look at the Danger Room, and she works out in it in UX #2. Also, in this FB, Jean learns Cyclops' real name  he was introduced to her as Slim in UX #1 p.8, but here he tells her his name is really Scott. Which brings us to the next flashback 


- Entry #5 
Recycled visual (the X-Men battle Magneto, from UX #1). Jean writes about how they fought "this Magneto person" "today", placing this the day of UX #1  but she refers to Cyclops as "Scott", placing it after UX #308-FB. (And in turn, implying that UX #308-FB occurs the day of UX #1 as well.) I posit that Jean's chronology fits together like this: 

UX #1 p.1-p.8 panel 2  Jean arrives at the school in a taxi. 
X:WA-FB  Scott takes Jean's bag at the door. 
UX #1 p.8 panel 3-p.15  Jean is introduced to the X-Men (including Cyclops as "Slim"), and Magneto attacks Cape Citadel. 
X:WA-BTS  Jean takes a minute to write in her diary about "Slim", saying that she thinks he's the same boy she met years prior via Cerebro. 
UX #1 p.16-23  Jean puts on her costume for the first time, and is called off to fight Magneto. They defeat him and free Cape Citadel. 
UX #308-FB  Later that day, Jean (still in costume) sees the Danger Room for the first time, and learns Scott's real name. 
X:WA-BTS  Jean writes in her diary about that day's fight with Magneto, and how being near "Scott" gave her confidence. 

Appearances (new): Jean, BTS 
Temporal / calendar references: the same day as UX #1. 


- Entry #6 
Recycled visual (Scott and Jean kiss, from UX #138-FB). Jean writes about how, on a walk in Central Park, Scott told her he loved her for the first time. This declaration happened in UX #138-FB, which itself occurred within UX #32 (between pp.12-13). However, figuring out when Jean penned the diary entry is problematic. The entry says that it's still the same day as Scott's declaration  but when Scott and Jean arrived back at the mansion that night, they found a rampaging Juggernaut, and by the time they defeated him in UX #33, Prof. X had been kidnapped. UX #34 follows straight from there, as the X-Men work to repair Cerebro and find the Professor. Jean really doesn't get a break until UX #34 p.2 panels 5-6, where she returns to her dorm at Metro College. However, she has a "terribly urgent" phone message waiting for her, and when she returns the call she learns that Ted Roberts' brother has been kidnapped  which spurs the X-Men into their next adventure, through to the end of UX #34. 

I could place the diary entry after UX #34 concludes, except that the Beast comments that it's now been "43 hours" since the X-Men got any sleep  which means that it's probably not the evening of Scott and Jean's romantic walk anymore. 

I could place the entry before p.13 of UX #32, but that means that Jean left Scott after a romantic evening so she could go to her dorm and write in her diary about him, before meeting back up with him at the mansion. I don't know about you, but if I were her, I'd stay by Scott's side until the evening ended. Plus, throughout the walk in UX #32, Scott is talking about how both of them have to hurry back to the mansion  which makes it even less likely that Jean would have swung by her dorm on the way to the mansion, just to write about Scott. 

I also doubt that, on the off-chance that the diary was kept at the mansion, she'd have had time to write in it before realizing that something was wrong  that Prof. X was unaccounted for, and the Juggernaut was loose in the house 

That leaves only one possible slot for Jean to have written the entry  UX #34, p.2, between panels 5-6, between Jean's return to her dorm and her calling Ted Roberts back. Jean's roommate did say that Ted's call was "terribly urgent", but after Jean gets off the phone with Ted, she immediately calls the X-Men  and they're now asleep in bed. That implies that some time has passed since Jean left the mansion on p.2 panel 4. Also, Jean shows an obvious reluctance to call Ted, as she fears he knows her secret identity  and also, in this diary entry, she says that "if I don't tell someone this right now, I think I'm going to bust"  so she clearly wants to get the events down on paper. All of this combined tells me that Jean probably put off calling Ted back for a little while, until she could get her thoughts in order  and that's probably when she made the diary entry. And that gives the rest of the X-Men enough time to have crashed, after a long night repairing Cerbro and worrying about Prof. X. 

The diary entry trails off, which is good, as Jean probably would have gone on to describe the rest of the night's events  including Prof. X's capture, another subject which would have been weighing heavily on her. The fact that the entry doesn't end outright, but instead presumably continues on to other topics, means that it *can* be slotted after Prof. X's capture. 

Oh, and Paul, there's a full moon in the recycled kissing scene  which jibes, luckily, with the full moon seen in both UX #32 and #34. 

Appearances (new): Jean, BTS 
Temporal / calendar references: same night as UX #32-34 (p.1-p.2 panel 5). Full moon. Green trees in central Park. 


- Entry #7 
New visual (new X-Men disentangle old X-Men from Krakoa's vines.) This is another example of an entry where the FB doesn't match the time of the entry. In the FB image, the old X-Men are being freed from where Krakoa was feeding on them  a new image which fits perfectly into GSX #1, p.28, between panels 1-2. However, the entry was written much later that night. In it, Jean talks about meeting Wolverine, and being impressed by his "gentle soul"  so this likely takes place after their first real conversation in CX #1. In that conversation, after initially coming on very strong, Logan warns Jean to stay away, that he's bad news  and she refuses to take him at face value, offering her help. They clearly bond in that scene, and that's likely what Jean is writing about. However, she mentions meeting Logan "today", and CX #1 ends at dawn the following day  and at that point Jean has decided to leave the X-Men. I propose that this entry was written between p.30 (the end of Jean's confrontation with Logan) and p.31 (dawn the next day). 

Appearances (visual): Jean, Scott, Banshee, Iceman, Wolverine 
Appearances (diary entry): Jean, BTS 
Temporal / calendar references: same day as GSX #1 and CX #1 (p.1-30). 

Incidentally, I'm not sure why CX #27/2 is stuck between pages of CX #1  except for Jean's line in the story about how "one of them" (her or Logan) "should leave the X-Men". In that context, it fits with Jean's decision to leave in CX #1 p.31-32, but the story itself doesn't seem to occur on the same night as GSX #1/CX #1. For one, the waiter/cook implies that Scott, Jean, and Logan's presence at the burger joint is the result of a "wrong turn", which implies they're fairly far from home  and although it's conceivable that they could get lost in and around Salem Center (especially if Logan was driving), or that the burger guy is making an incorrect assumption, I doubt the three of them would go out for burgers while the rest of the new X-Men are uneasily trying to fit in back at the mansion. Also, it really looks like Jean is manifesting the Phoenix raptor on the final page  which would place the story after UX #101. And Jean knows Wolvie's real name, too, which as far as I know he *never* revealed to her  Nightcrawler didn't even learn it until UX #139, after Jean's "death"  and Jean's diary entry for that night says that the "mutant who calls himself Wolverine  refuses to reveal anything about himself". More research is needed on this one, I think, so for right now I'll leave it where it is  and place Jean's diary entry just before it, since she apparently didnt know his name when she wrote the entry. 


-------- 

Wow, that took a long time. Moving on: Uncanny X-Men #310. 

This issue is Scott's bachelor party, and if the tradition of holding the party the night before the wedding holds up, then this is also January 6th  although, since it's now the evening, this issue occurs *after* X:WA story #1. 

Synopsis: 
On the way to his bachelor party, Scott has a long talk with Cable about abandoning him as a child  and they team up to fight the X-Cutioner, who has broken into the mansion to kill Emma Frost. One new flashback is presented, in the form of a video log, to shortly after XF #68. 

Appearances: 
Cyclops, Banshee, Cable, Strong Guy, Iceman (last in X:WA, earlier that same day), Beast, Nightcrawler, Archangel, Bishop, the X-Cutioner, Gambit, Sabretooth, Forge, the White Queen, and one other bachelor party guest, who I'm assuming is Havok (playing pool with Strong Guy, Gambit, and Forge, p.6 panel 1)  would Scott's brother and best man miss his bachelor party? Heck, as best man, he probably had to have organized it. 

Temporal/Calendar references: 
One evening, Scott's bachelor party (therefore the night before X #30's wedding, I'm guessing, making it Friday, January 6th according to other sources). 
Banshee mentions Cable's "corrupting" of Siryn "in recent weeks". 
Scott discovered that Cable was his son "recently", in Cable #6-8, and it doesn't sound as if he's seen him since. 
The Hellions died, in UX #281-282, "not long ago". 
The X-Cutioner has been active, since UXM @17, for "a very short amount of time". 


Flashback: 
A video log, showing a haggard Scott updating X-Factor's records and detailing the events of X-Factor #68. Jean tells him to get some sleep, that he can do this in the morning, but Scott wants to update the files "while the details are fresh in [his] mind". It seems clear that it's the evening of the end of X-Factor #68. 

Appearances: Cyclops, Marvel Girl 
Temporal references: Jean says they've "been through a lot in the past thirty-six hours", referring to the events of XF #65(pp.13-20)-68. 

-------- 

Now, onto X-Men #30, the big day. 

Synopsis: 
Scott and Jean get married  what else can I say? The issue begins as Jean and Scott are getting the finishing touches put on their outfits  Scott's bow tie is a particular problem. Jean is re-reading the letter Logan wrote her when he left in W2 #75, but Prof. X can't bring himself to read the one Logan wrote for him. The guests have all arrived and are seated behind the mansion, and the ceremony begins. Jean walks down the aisle, the vows are exchanged, and the married couple share their first kiss  and later, their first dance. Meanwhile, Sabretooth watches from the woods, and debates ruining the moment  but he's "discouraged" by an off-panel Wolverine, who apparently was there after all. At the reception, friends gather and chat, Rogue catches Jean's bouquet, and Gambit catches Jean's garter. As the afternoon winds down, Jean telekinetically lifts Prof. X to share the last dance with her  and later, as they head off to their honeymoon, Scott says a heartfelt thank-you and goodbye to Prof. X. Prof. X finally slits open Wolverine's note, which reads "Lighten up". He begins to laugh 


Appearances: 
Oh man, this was tough, because Andy Kubert draws everyone pretty much the same. If you think I've missed or misidentified anyone, chime in and help out, folks. 


Scene 1: Jean's dress and Scott's bow tie (p.1-p.8/9 panel 2) 
Jean Grey, Storm, Phoenix III (Rachel), Elaine Grey, Cyclops, Iceman, the Beast, Archangel, Havok, Prof. X. 


Scene 2: walking down the aisle (p.8/9 panel 3-p.11) 

On stage, p.8 panels 3-4: Cyclops, Havok, and the minister. 
Guests, p.8/9 panel 5 (double-page spread): 
- Left side: 
Front row: Leech, Artie Maddicks (both standing), Iceman, the Beast, Philip and Deborah Summers. 
Second row: Boomer, Cable, Archangel, Bishop, Prof. X. 
Third row: two unknowns (intended to be Meggan and Captain Britain, but events in Excalibur #74-75 make their presence impossible), Valerie Cooper, Nightcrawler, unknown (woman with short tan hair), Phoenix III. 
Fourth row: two unknowns (short-haired woman and man in tan suit), probably Cannonball (the rest of X-Force is there  why not him?), unknown dark-haired woman, Shatterstar, Rictor. 
Fifth row: two standing unknowns (blonde in blue dress and golden-haired man), probably Stevie Hunter. 
- Right side: 
Front row: Gailyn and Joey Bailey, Elaine Grey, Psylocke. 
Second row: Jubilee, Gambit, Rogue, probably Forge, probably Wolfsbane (both are definitely in the crowd somewhere, as they appear later in the issue  and these seem like the likeliest physical candidates to be them.) 
Third row: Quicksilver, Luna Maximoff, Crystal, Polaris, Strong Guy. 
Fourth row: Banshee, probably Siryn (sitting between Warpath and Banshee  who else could it be?), Warpath, Domino. 
Fifth row: five unknowns (black-haired woman, waving black-haired man, man with glasses, woman with hair in bun, golden-haired young man). 
Standing flower girl: probably Shadowcat (we know from EXCAL #75, WI2 #60 and X:WA/2 that she attended the wedding  and this girl seems the likeliest physical candidate). 

And don't forget, one of the faces in the crowd is Nicole Miller, as mentioned in X:WA. I'm guessing it's the standing blonde in the back left, because she's mentioned as an old friend of Jean's, and we see her again in the bouquet-catching crowd  and in real life, Nicole Miller *is* blonde. 

The rest, pp.10-11 
Storm, Lila Cheney (and her 3-person band, named as the X-Citers in X:WA/2), Jean Grey, John Grey. 


Scene 3: the vows and the first dances (pp.12-14) 
Cyclops, Jean Grey, the Beast, Philip Summers, Archangel, Elaine Grey, Deborah Summers, Quicksilver, Luna Maximoff, Crystal, Gambit, Rogue, John Grey, Cable, Phoenix III, Havok, Storm, Strong Guy, Jubilee, Prof. X, Bishop, Iceman, Lila Cheney (and her band), Psylocke, Leech, Artie Maddicks, unknowns in crowd (p.14 panel 4) 

Now, we know that everyone sighted in their seats in the last scene is still there watching in the first part of this scene  so BTS appearances go to: 

Boomer, Valerie Cooper, Nightcrawler, probably-Cannonball, Shatterstar, Rictor, probably-Stevie Hunter, Gailyn and Joey Bailey, Forge, probably-Wolfsbane, Polaris, Banshee, probably Siryn, Warpath, Domino, probably-Shadowcat, and Nicole Miller. 

(The reason I split the scene between pp.11-12 at all is because there's a scene from WI2 #60 that fits there.) 


Scene 4: watching from the woods (p.15) 
Sabretooth (last in UX #310), Wolverine (his foot in seen on-panel and the "shlukk" of his bone claws are heard). 


Scene 5: the reception begins (p.16) 
Strong Guy, Rogue, Gambit, Jubilee, Bishop, the Beast, Archangel, Iceman, Havok, Polaris, Wolfsbane, Rictor, probably-Quicksilver, Cable, Valerie Cooper, Psylocke, probably-Warpath, probably-Cannonball, unknowns in crowd (panels 3, 5). 

The Beast and Iceman confirm here that Trish Tilby and Opal Tanaka did not attend the wedding. 

The white-haired face seen behind Wolfsbane in panel 4 I took to be Quicksilver  here Rahne is updating people she hasn't seen in a while (like Rictor) on her life, and Quicksilver is a recent X-Factor member. The blond and long black-haired man next to Cable in panel 5 I took to be Cannonball and Warpath  they're both grouped as if speaking to Cable, so they're likely X-Force members  and Rictor is speaking to Rahne, so he probably isnt the black-haired man, and although the blond man could be Shatterstar, X:WA/2 tells us that Shatty is wearing a ponytail that day. 


Scene 6: the afternoon progresses  the bouquet, the garter, and cake (pp.17-20) 
Rogue, Polaris, Storm, Domino, Psylocke, Boomer, unknown blonde (p.17 panels 1-2, in the blue dress  possibly Nicole Miller?), Jubilee, Forge, Cyclops, Jean Grey, Archangel, the Beast, Strong Guy, Cable, Warpath, Gambit, Quicksilver, Luna Maximoff, probably Banshee, Phoenix III, Lila Cheney (and her band), Prof. X, Bishop, Crystal, probably Shadowcat, BTS (see below), unknowns in crowd (p.18 panel 3, pp.19-20) 

Given that Shadowcat enthuses in WI2 #60 p.1 about getting "every second on film", and that X:WA/2 tells us that Kitty's recording the wedding video, it seems likely that she's BTS here too, recording such important events as the cutting of the cake. Presumably that's why she's not part of the crowd catching the bouquet, as she's running the camera 

The white-haired man and the long black-haired man in the garter scene, I assumed to be Cable and Warpath  it's also possible that they were meant to be Iceman and Rictor, but the hair color more closely matches Cable, and the body type of the long black-haired man more closely matches Warpath. 

The man visible between and behind Scott and Jean as she mashes him with cake (p.18 panel 3), I took to be Banshee. The man standing behind Quicksilver is unidentifiable. 


Scene 7: leaving for the honeymoon (pp.21-22) 
Cyclops, Prof. X, (Corsair, BTS  Scott mentions getting a message from him), (Havok and Jean, BTS  Cyclops mentions that Alex is waiting to drive him and Jean to the airport), (Moira MacTaggert, BTS  Prof. X reads a note from her). 

If Logan's notes are to be taken as BTS appearances from him, he wrote them between pp.35-36 of Wolverine v2 #75. We see them sitting on a table in the mansion in p.37 panel 1. 

Also, there's a good chance that Moira had the wedding guests from Excalibur deliver the papers Prof. X is reading, so she likely wrote the sticky-note that tops the papers just before she sent them out  which would be in-between EXCAL 74 and 75, since that's where in Excalibur's continuity the wedding guests appear. 


Continuity references: 
Most of X-Factor appears after XF #100, as they reference Jamie Madrox's death  but before XF #101, Jamie's funeral, where Havok quits the team and leaves without a word. By the way, Prof. X and Storm appear in XF #101-102 following this issue. 

X-Force appears after XFO #34, because XFO #32 occurs on the same day as X #29 (they share a scene at the Hellfire Club), and leads into a New Warriors crossover that wraps up in XFO #34. NW #46 features a quick cameo of Strong Guy, Polaris, and Wolfsbane  and Wolfsbane has been cured of her perpetually "fuzzy" state, placing this cameo after X-Factor #100. 

Excalibur appears here right before EXCAL #75, as the opening scene in that issue is Rachel, Kitty, and Kurt returning home from the wedding. Moira and Meggan are waiting on the island, which tells us that they didn't attend the wedding. 

By the way, after Rachel is sucked into the timestream in EXCAL #75, the MCP has her continuing into Cable's future, becoming the Mother Askani and appearing in "X-Men: Phoenix" #1 through Cable v2 #71 -- *then* appearing in Gaunt's future time in Cable v2 #82-86. Cable v2 #85-86 would have us believe that Rachel lived the rest of her life as Mother Askani, died, and then when Cable's future was averted by the X-Men's defeat of Apocalypse in X-Men #97-98, the future was ERASED -- and Rachel was simply "rewound" back to immediately after EXCAL #75  still lost in the timestream, and making her way into a *second* alternate future, where we find her in Cable v2 #82. 

However, Marvel physics doesn't work that way. When the Guardians of the Galaxy's future was averted in M/TIO #69, for example, it merely branched off the main Marvel trunk  it wasn't wiped from existence. Similarly, there's no way that Cable's future was retroactively "erased" after it was averted by Apocalypse's defeat. Timelines don't vanish like that  they just become alternates, that branched off at a point now in the past. 

Cable's future still exists, as a tangent that split off at X #98. Which means that Cable v2 #85-86's explanation of what happened to Rachel  that her time as Mother Askani now never existed, even though it happened to her  doesn't quite work. Mother Askani exists, always has and always will, in that particular branch timeline. The simplest way to reconcile the current Rachel Summers with Mother Askani is to say that Mother Askani is an *alternate* Rachel  one who diverged from the "real" Rachel. 

Timelines diverge all the time  to use the GotG example above, Major Victory is a divergent Justice, one who diverged at M/TIO #69. In the same vein, we can legitimately claim that Mother Askani is a divergent Rachel Summers, one whose personal timeline diverged at a point just after EXCAL #75  and while our Rachel ended up in Gaunt's future as seen in C2 85-FB, the divergent Rachel ended up in Cable's future as seen in X-Men: Phoenix #1, and became Mother Askani. 

In that case, a new listing should be created for Mother Askani, and all of Phoenix III's appearances from X:P 1 to C2 71 should be attributed to her. I've indicated this change in the individual chronologies below. 


Temporal/calendar references: 
One day. It's "January", and although Storm has made it 70 degrees and sunny around the mansion, there's still snow on the ground in the surrounding woods. According to Jean's note in X:WA, it's "the 7th", and according to UX #309, it's a "Saturday". As I said before, though, January was the month the issue was published, so that could be considered a topical reference. There's either a full moon or a setting sun on p.18 panel 4  but given the pink coloring of the sky on p.20, I'm going with "setting sun". 

-------- 

Okay, moving on, to What If? v2 #60. 

This issue features three non-canon alternate-universe stories told by the Watcher, which I won't go into detail on, but it also contains new scenes of the Earth-616 wedding of Scott and Jean. The three alternate tales, by the way, were: 

- "What if Scott Summers and Jean Grey had married earlier?" (splits off some time before the AA2 #11-FB where Hank leaves to work at the Brand Corporation  in this reality, that's also when Scott and Jean announce their engagement.) 

- "What if Scott Summers and Jean Grey had never fallen in love at all?" (splits off around UX #1  probably before the UX #308-FB I discussed earlier.) 

- "What if Phoenix had fallen for Wolverine?" (splits off some time between UX #101-129.) 

Interspersed between these three stories are four segments from Earth-616. In order, they are: 


Segment #1 (pp.1-2) 
Storm, wearing her costume, manipulates the weather to make Jean's wedding day nicer. Kitty talks about catching every second on film, and X-Factor arrives. This scene must occur prior to X #30 p.1, because by that point Storm had changed into her dress for the wedding. 

Appearances: 
the Watcher, Storm, Shadowcat, Polaris, the Beast, Strong Guy, Crystal, Quicksilver, presumably Luna Maximoff, BTS (Iceman says "how's little Luna?", and besides, why would Crystal and Quicksilver arrive without her?), probably Iceman (light-haired man in tan striped suit), and probably Havok (blond man in black suit shaking probably-Iceman's hand). 

Temporal / calendar references: the Watcher says it's "the wedding day of Scott Summers and Jean Grey", and to reinforce that this is Earth-616, he says "It is my power  and my duty  to observe all that occurs, both here  and in other alternate universes, in which things occur differently." I know the phrase "*other* alternate universes" is open for debate, but it seems clear that the INTENT is that this is the 616 universe  even characters' outfits match what is seen in X #30. That makes it Saturday, January 7th. 


Segment #2 (p.10) 
Scott and Jean are at the altar. Nightcrawler asks Archangel if he has any regrets. This scene occurs between pp.11-12 of X #30, after Jean has walked up the aisle to Scott but before their hands are tied by a sash. 

Kudos to the artist, by the way, for following as best he could the seating arrangement shown in X #30 pp.8/9 panel 5. Just like in X #30, Nightcrawler is sitting behind and to the right of Archangel, and Deborah Summers is in front of him to the left. Other heads and hairstyles match up too, which means that I can use the seating arrangement shown in X #30 to identify the heads in the crowd in panel 1. 

Appearances: 
Panel 1, starting from the back: 
Fifth row (none visible) 
Fourth row: unknown dark-haired woman, probably-Cannonball, unknown man in tan suit. 
Third row: Phoenix III, unknown woman with short tan hair, Nightcrawler, unknown with long hair (probably the "supposed-to-be-Captain-Britain" guest). 
Second row: Prof. X, Cable 
First row: two unknowns (seated off to Iceman's right and not visible in X #30 p.8/9 panel 5). 
On stage: Jean Grey, Cyclops, Havok, and the minister. 

Not visible in panel 1, but shown in panel 2: 
Archangel, Deborah Summers. 

Not visible, but definitely in that section of crowd: probably-Stevie Hunter, Rictor, Shatterstar, Valerie Cooper, Bishop, Boomer, Philip Summers, the Beast, Iceman, Artie, and Leech. Should they get BTS entries? 

To be honest, everyone that we know to be in the audience should get a BTS for WI2 #60 p.10 panel 1, since this is a section of the ceremony we didn't see, and we know for a fact that they're all sitting there watching it, just off-panel. If that's the case, additional BTS entries should go to: 

Gailyn and Joey Bailey, John and Elaine Grey, Psylocke, Jubilee, Gambit, Rogue, Forge, Wolfsbane, Quicksilver, Luna Maximoff, Crystal, Polaris, Strong Guy, Banshee, probably-Siryn, Warpath, Domino, Shadowcat, Nicole Miller, Storm, and Lila Cheney (and her band). 

Oh, and the Watcher appears as well (full appearance), because he's watching. 

Speaking of, should the Watcher get BTS entries for X #30, since he's presumably watching that as well? Or can we assume, since he's busy screening alternate-universe scenes between the 616-bits that he DOES watch in WI2 #60, that he ISN'T paying attention to any of the wedding events we see in X #30  just the wedding events we see in WI2 #60? I'd assume that he's busy with the alternate-universe scenes, and is merely *recording* the parts of the wedding we don't see him watch  and therefore, doesn't get a BTS listing for X #30. 

Temporal references: none. 


Segment #3 (p.18) 
As the band plays at the reception, Jubilee mopes about Wolvie's absence. However, in the woods, we see that he's there after all. This scene occurs after Scott and Jean's first dance, and before Logan kicks Sabretooth in the back and leaves  so between pp.14-15 of X #30. 

Appearances: Lila Cheney (and her band), Rogue, Gambit, Strong Guy, the Beast, Jubilee, Wolverine. Several unidentifiable people are in the crowd, as well, but lines from X #30 tell us that some guests went home early  so, since I can't guarantee that everyone from the wedding is at the reception, or that some of them didn't wander off to change and then come back, I can't presume to give all  or any  of them BTS appearances. 

The only evidence we have that the Watcher watched this scene, by the way, is some narration talking about Wolverine  I can't say for sure if the Watcher was watching here, or if he was busy setting up the reel for his next alternate-universe story about Phoenix and Wolverine. 

Temporal references: snow on the ground in the woods surrounding the mansion. 


Segment #4 (pp.26-27) 
Jean and Scott succumb to the wedding tradition of throwing rice at the departing couple, even though they claim they're not departing until later. I place this between pp.20-21 of X #30, after the last dance of the reception but before night falls, the party ends, and Scott and Jean leave for the airport. 

Appearances: the Watcher, Cyclops, Jean Grey, Bishop, Havok, probably-Warpath, probably-Wolfsbane, Strong Guy, Gambit, Rogue, and presumably Shadowcat, BTS (see below). There are three unidentifiable people in the crowd as well  but again, since Jean says on X #30 p.20 that "most of the guests have gone home", I can't say for sure who is or isn't still there  so I don't have enough information to award specific BTS appearances. 

However, given that Shadowcat enthuses on p.1 about getting "every second on film", and that X:WA/2 tells us that Kitty's recording the wedding video, it seems likely that she's BTS here, recording the traditional throwing of rice. 

Temporal/calendar references: the sky is slightly cloudy and sunset-colored here as well, matching with what we see on X #30 p.20. All in all, the creative team did a great job synching this issue up to X #30. I'm impressed! 

-------- 

And finally, the second story in X-Men: the Wedding Album. 

This is Kitty's wedding video, her present to Scott and Jean. We see scenes that take place outdoors right after the wedding, and later indoors at the reception. There are also some repeated scenes from X #30, but as those are lifted directly from the issue, cut-and-paste style, I can safely ignore them. 

P.1, panels 1-3 are Kitty introducing the video. Since the following scene is Scott and Jean's vows, Kitty must have recorded the intro prior to the start of the ceremony (X #30 p.8/9). This should probably come after WI2 #60 pp.1-2, though, because in that scene Kitty is gushing about how she wants "to catch every second of it on film!" Apparently, she goes on to do so. 

Appearances: Kitty Pryde. 
Temporal / calendar references: day of Scott and Jean's wedding (Saturday, January 7th). 


The rest of p.1, and pp.2-3, are clips from X #30. The next new scene is on p.4, panel 1  Banshee and Strong Guy toast the couple from afar as they pose amidst flowers. Since X #30 p.16 starts off "and while Scott and Jean endure the torturous prompting of the wedding photographer, the reception begins", and Strong Guy is shown in the food line at the reception, I'm going to assume that this scene occurs just before p.16. 

Appearances: Cyclops, Jean Grey, Banshee, Strong Guy, Bishop, a crowd of unidentifiable people (and Kitty Pryde, BTS, working the camera). 
Temporal / calendar references: none. 


P.4 panel 2 is a video clip of Archangel, saying "Could have been magic, Red." 

Appearances: Archangel (and Kitty Pryde, BTS, working the camera). 
Temporal / calendar references: none. 


P.5/6 has two more toasts, from Shatterstar and Quicksilver. They're still outside, so I'm assuming this is also before the reception begins  a perfect time for Kitty to record messages of goodwill, actually, since the couple are still being occupied by the photographer. 

Appearances: Shatterstar, Boomer, Rictor, Quicksilver, Luna Maximoff, Crystal (and Kitty Pryde, BTS, working the camera). 
Temporal / calendar references: none. 


P.7-12 is now inside, so I'm placing it after the reception begins, between pp.16-17. Kitty captures more messages, as well as random moments from the reception. 

Appearances: Gailyn and Joey Bailey, Iceman, Bishop, Rogue, Gambit, the minister, Banshee, the Beast, Lila Cheney (and her band), Jean Grey, Cyclops, Psylocke, Nightcrawler, probably-Rictor, probably-Cannonball (both mock-coming on to Psylocke), Jubilee, probably-Val Cooper, unknown man in blue (and Kitty Pryde, BTS, working the camera). 
Temporal / calendar references: none. 

The two men damcing with Psylocke on pp.11-12 are a blond man whose outfit matches the guest I've labeled as Cannonball, and a long brown-haired man who could be either Rictor or Warpath. I decided he weas likely Rictor, based on his hair color (Rictor's Latin hair is probably browner that Warpath's Apache hair), size (same relative size as Cannonball), and the fact that he's holding an entire bottle of wine  after what Warpath recently went through with Siryn's alcoholism, I doubt he'd be drinking that heavily  especially if she was attending the wedding, which I believe she was. 

The blonde woman in the background I take to be Val Cooper  although she's lost the glasses she was wearing in X #30, no other blonde guest was wearing their hair the way this woman is. 


The final page of the issue is a message from Scott and Jean to their wedding guests, thanking them for attending. My girlfriend informs me that such notes are usually penned by the couple afterwards and mailed out, so if so this should come after the end of X #30  probably written from their honeymoon on St. Bart's, before they were spirited into the future in "the Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix" #1. (Because after 12 years in the future, who remembers to write wedding thank-yous when they get back?) The fact that the message appears to be accompanied by a wedding photo is more evidence  as it would take time for the photos to be developed. 

Appearances: Cyclops, Jean Grey (both BTS, collaborating on the message) 
Temporal references: none. Presumably a few days after X #30. 

The notion that Scott and Jean flew to a tropical island, received their wedding photos while on the island, picked one, wrote an accompanying note, and mailed thank-you cards out to all the guests, while still on the island, is a bit far-fetched  but they've got all kinds of handy Shi'Ar computer systems and they could have done the whole thing digitally. (Heck, these days I could probably pull off the same thing *without* Shi'Ar tech.) 

This message isnt part of Kitty's video, so it should probably be considered X:WA/3. 

By the way, regarding Scott and Jean getting pulled into the future  the MCP lists the "Cyclops and Phoenix" miniseries, but neglects to include the FB in C&P #1 where Scott and Jean are actually pulled forward through time. That FB, on pp.15-16, should be added to Scott and Jean's chronologies, coming right before the start of C&P #1. 

-------- 

So, how do all the pieces fit together? Like so: 
(New entries have been starred.) 

Bizarre Adventures #27 -FB (pp.4-5)  Jean is in shock from Annie's death. 

*X-Men: the Wedding Album -FB (diary entry #1)  Prof. X brings Jean back to consciousness in the hospital. 

* X-Men: the Wedding Album -FB (diary entry #2)  Jean lives in the mansion and begins learning about her mutation. 

*Bizarre Adventures #27 -FB (p.6 panel 1)  Prof. X begins training Jean in TK. 

*Uncanny X-Men #273 -FB (moved up from below)  Prof. X introduces Jean to Cerebro. 

*Classic X-Men #42/2  moved up from below  Jean meets Scott through Cerebro. 

* X-Men: the Wedding Album -FB (diary entry #3)  Jean writes about meeting Scott mentally. 

Uncanny X-Men #-1  Jean, age 11, is cured and living back at home. 
 
 
Uncanny X-Men #1 (p.1-p.8 panel 2)  Jean arrives in a taxi. 

* X-Men: the Wedding Album -FB  Scott takes Jean's bag at the door, from diary entry #4. 

Uncanny X-Men #1 (p.8 panel 3-p.15)  Jean meets the X-Men. 

* X-Men: the Wedding Album (diary entry #4)  Jean writes about meeting "Slim" in person. 

Uncanny X-Men #1 (pp.16-23)  Jean puts on her costume for the first time, and fights Magneto. 

*UX 308-FB (moved from in-between pages of UX #1)  Jean, in costume, asks Scott his name in the Danger Room. 

* X-Men: the Wedding Album (diary entry #5)  Jean writes about Scott and that day's battle with Magneto. 
 
 
Uncanny X-Men #32 (pp.1-12) 
Uncanny X-Men #138 -FB  the kiss! 
Uncanny X-Men #32 (pp.13-20) 
Uncanny X-Men #33 
Uncanny X-Men #34 (p.1-p.2 panel 5)  Jean returns to her dorm. 

*X-Men: the Wedding Album (diary entry #6)  Jean writes about Scott's declaration of love. 

Uncanny X-Men #34 (p.2 panel 6-p.20)  Jean calls Ted Roberts back. 
 
 
Giant-Size X-Men #1 -FB  the original X-Men are captured by Krakoa. 
Giant-Size X-Men #1 (p.1-p.28 panel 1)  the new X-Men are gathered and travel to Krakoa. 

*X-Men: the Wedding Album -FB  the old X-Men are freed from the vines, from diary entry #7. 

Giant-Size X-Men #1 (p.28 panel 2-p.36)  the X-Men defeat Krakoa. 

Classic X-Men #1 (pp.19-30)  Jean sees behind Wolvie's rough facade. 

*X-Men: the Wedding Album -BTS (diary entry #7)  Jean writes about meeting Wolverine. 

Classic X-Men #27/2 (if this is truly where this story belongs) 
Classic X-Men #1 (pp.31-32) 
 
 
X-Factor #65-68  Nathan is infected with the technovirus and taken to the future. 

*Uncanny X-Men #310 -FB  Scott mourns for the loss of Nathan. 
 
 
X-Men #25 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
Wolverine #75 (pp.1-36) (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 

*X-Men #30  Logan writes the notes read by Jean and Prof. X. 

Wolverine v2 #75 (pp.37-38) (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 
 
X-Factor #100 
X-Men #29 
X-Force #32 
New Warriors #45 
X-Force #33 
New Warriors #46 
X-Force #34 
(gap books, none of these yet in the MCP) 

*X-Men: the Wedding Album (pp.18-19)  Jean's note to her mother. (Jean "appears" here, BTS, by virtue of having written the note  but do we really need to include a BTS for a given issue in the listings, when it's right next to a full appearance from the same issue?) 

*X-Men: the Wedding Album (pp.1-17)  the day before the wedding, Jubilee chats about marriage with Jean  and sneakily reads her diary. 

*Uncanny X-Men #310  on the way to Cyclops' bachelor party, Scott and Cable bond and battle the X-Cutioner. 

*What If? v2 #60 (pp.1-2)  the big day. Shadowcat talks about catching the entire event on film, Storm manipulates the weather, and the guests begin to arrive. 

*X-Men: the Wedding Album /2 (p.1, panels 1-3)  Shadowcat records an introduction to Scott and Jean's wedding video. 

*X-Men #30 (pp.1-11)  with some last-minute outfit preparations, Scott and Jean take the big walk down the aisle. 

*What If? v2 #60 (p.10)  as Scott and Jean stand at the altar, Nightcrawler asks Archangel if he regrets never winning Jean's heart. 

*X-Men #30 (pp.12-14)  Scott and Jean exchange vows, and share their first dance as man and wife. 

*What If? v2 #60 (p.18)  Jubilee mopes that Logan didn't come  but what she doesn't know is that he's watching from the woods 

*X-Men #30 (p.15)  in the woods, an off-panel Wolverine "discourages" Sabretooth from disrupting the wedding. 

*X-Men: the Wedding Album /2 (pp.4-6)  Kitty records some messages and well-wishing outside, as the couple begins posing for the wedding photographer. 

*X-Men #30 (p.16)  the reception begins, and the guests mingle. 

*X-Men: the Wedding Album /2 (pp.7-12)  the reception moves indoors, and Kitty records some festive moments. 

*X-Men #30 (pp.17-20)  after the meal, Jean throws her bouquet, Scott throws Jean's garter, and the couple cut the cake. 

*What If? v2 #60 (pp.26-27)  the wedding guests pelt the happy couple with rice. 

*X-Men #30 (pp.21-22)  leaving for the airport that night, Scott shares a heartfelt moment with Prof. X. 

Excalibur #75 (gap book; not currently in the MCP)  "seven minutes" after leaving the reception, Excalibur arrive back on Muir Island. 

*X-Men: the Wedding Album /3  a few days later, Scott and Jean pick an appropriate wedding photo and send out thank-you notes to their guests. 

*the Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix #1 -FB (needs to be added)  Scott and Jean are psionically pulled into the future by the Mother Askani. 

the Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix #1  Scott and Jean arrive in the future, in new bodies, and are given another chance to raise baby Nathan 
 


-------- 

Now for the individual character chronologies. 

I've tried to provide before-and-after appearances for every entry I'm suggesting adding, but given that the wedding is smack in the '93-94 Gap, sometimes I'm not sure where a character's been or is going after the wedding. Where I could make an educated guess, I did, and those entries are all labeled "Gap book"  so take them with a grain of salt. Sometimes, however, I had no way to guess  so I left the entries without before-and-afters. Hopefully Russ will be able to determine where the wedding falls in those characters' chronologies as he closes the Gap. 

Also please note, when including the diary entries from X:WA, the entries with new visuals are listed as FBs for all present in the visual  however, the diary entries with recycled visuals, or where the time of writing the entry differs substantially from the time the visual occurred, are listed as BTS entries for Jean Grey. 

My "probably" entries below can pretty much be taken as gospel  if I wasn't 90% sure that a character appeared in a given scene or panel, I wouldn't have listed them at all. 


ARCHANGEL / WARREN WORTHINGTON III 
 
X 29 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*UX 310 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60 
*X 30 (pp.12-14) 
*X:WA/2 
*X 30 (p.16-20) 
X 31 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 


BAILEY, GAILYN 
 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS 
*X 30-BTS (pp.12-14) 
*X:WA/2 
 


BAILEY, JOEY 
 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS 
*X 30-BTS (pp.12-14) 
*X:WA/2 
 


BANSHEE / SEAN CASSIDY 
 
CA 172 
GSX 1 (p.7-p.15 panel 3) 
X:L 2-FB 
GSX 1 (p.15 panel 3-p.28 panel 1) 
*X:WA-FB  the old X-Men are freed from the vines, from diary entry #7. 
GSX 1 (p.28 panel 2-p.36)  the X-Men defeat Krakoa. 
CX 1 
 
*UX 310 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS 
*X 30-BTS (pp.12-14) 
*X:WA/2 
*X 30 (pp.17-20) (probably) 
 


BEAST / HENRY McCOY 
 
X 29 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*UX 310 
*WI2 60 (pp.1-2) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS (p.10) 
*X 30 (pp.12-14) 
*WI2 60 (p.18) 
*X 30 (p.16) 
*X:WA/2 
*X 30 (pp.17-20) 
UX 311 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 


BISHOP / LUCAS BISHOP 
 
*UX 310 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS (p.10) 
*X 30 (pp.12-14) 
*X:WA/2 (pp.4-6) 
*X 30 (p.16) 
*X:WA/2 (pp.7-12) 
*X 30 (pp.17-20) 
*WI2 60 (pp.26-27) 
UX 311 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 


BOOMER / TABITHA SMITH 
 
XFO 34 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS 
*X 30-BTS (pp.12-14) 
*X:WA/2 
*X 30 (pp.17-20) 
 


CABLE / NATHAN CHRISTOPHER CHARLES SUMMERS / NATHAN DAYSPRING ASKANI'SON 
 
XFO 34 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*UX 310 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60 
*X 30 (pp.12-20) 
 


CANNONBALL II / SAMUEL GUTHRIE 
 
XFO 34 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) (probably) 
*WI2 60 (probably) 
*X 30 (pp.12-16) (probably) 
*X:WA/2 (probably) 
 


CHENEY, LILA 
 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS (p.10) 
*X 30 (pp.12-14) 
*WI2 60 (p.18) 
*X:WA/2 
*X 30 (pp.17-20) 
 


COOPER, VALERIE 
 
XFO 100 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS 
*X 30 (pp.12-16) 
*X:WA/2 (probably) 
 


CORSAIR / CHRISTOPHER SUMMERS 
 
*X 30-BTS  Cyclops receives Corsair's best wishes over Shi'Ar commlink. 
 


CRYSTAL 
 
*WI2 60 (pp.1-2) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS (p.10) 
*X 30 (pp.12-14) 
*X:WA/2 
*X 30 (pp.17-20) 
 


CYCLOPS / SCOTT SUMMERS 
 
CX 42/2  Jean meets Scott through Cerebro. 
*X:WA-FB (diary entry #3)  Jean writes about meeting Scott mentally. 
UX 38/2-FB 
 
UX 1 (p.1-p.8 panel 2) 

*X:WA-FB  Scott takes Jean's bag at the door, from diary entry #4. 
UX 1 (pp.8 panel 5-p.23) 
*UX 308-FB (moved from in-between pages of UX #1)  Jean, in costume, asks Scott his name in the Danger Room. 
UX 2 
 
GSX 1-FB  the original X-Men are captured by Krakoa. 
GSX 1 (p.1-p.28 panel 1) 
*X:WA-FB  the old X-Men are freed from the vines, from diary entry #7. 
GSX 1 (p.28 panel 2-p.36)  the X-Men defeat Krakoa. 
CX 1 (pp.19-30) 
CX 27/2 (if this is truly where this story belongs) 
CX 1 (pp.31-32) 
 
XF 68 
*UX 310-FB  Scott mourns the loss of Nathan. 
IG 3 
 
X 29 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*UX 310 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60 (p.10) 
*X 30 (pp.12-14) 
*X:WA/2 
*X 30 (pp.17-20) 
*WI2 60 (pp.26-27) 
*X 30 (pp.21-22) 
*X:WA/3-BTS  Scott and Jean's thank-you card to their wedding guests. 
*C&P 1-FB (needs to be added)  Scott and Jean are pulled into the future. 
C&P 1 
 


DOMINO 
 
XFO 34 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS 
*X 30 (pp.12-20) 
 


FORGE 
 
*UX 310 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS 
*X 30 (pp.12-20) 
XF 101 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 


GAMBIT / REMY LeBEAU 
 
*UX 310 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS (p.10) 
*X 30 (pp.12-14) 
*WI2 60 (p.18) 
*X 30 (p.16) 
*X:WA/2 
*X 30 (pp.17-20) 
*WI2 60 (pp.26-27) 
X 31 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 


GREY, ELAINE 
 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS 
*X 30 (pp.12-14) 
 


GREY, JOHN 
 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS 
*X 30 (pp.12-14) 
 


HAVOK / ALEX SUMMERS 
 
XF 100 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*UX 310 (probably) 
*WI2 60 (pp.1-2) (probably) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60 (p.10) 
*X 30 (pp.12-16) 
*WI2 60 (pp.26-27) 
*X 30-BTS (pp.21-22) 
XF 101 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 


HUNTER, STEVIE 
 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) (probably) 
*WI2 60-BTS (probably) 
*X 30-BTS (pp.12-14) (probably) 


ICEMAN / BOBBY DRAKE 
 
GSX 1-FB  the original X-Men are captured by Krakoa. 
GSX 1 (p.1-p.28 panel 1) 
*X:WA-FB  the old X-Men are freed from the vines, from diary entry #7. 
GSX 1 (p.28 panel 2-p.36)  the X-Men defeat Krakoa. 
CX 1 
 
*X:WA 
*UX 310 
*WI2 60 (pp.1-2) (probably) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS (p.10) 
*X 30 (pp.12-16) 
*X:WA/2 
UX 311 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 


JUBILEE / JUBILATION LEE 
 
X 29 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*X:WA 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS (p.10) 
*X 30 (pp.12-14) 
*WI2 60 (p.18) 
*X 30 (p.16) 
*X:WA/2 
*X 30 (pp.17-20) 
UX 311 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 


LEECH 
 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS 
*X 30 (pp.12-14) 
 


MacTAGGERT, MOIRA 
 
EXCAL 74 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*X 30-BTS  Prof. X reads a sticky-note from Moira atop a stack of papers. 
EXCAL 75 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 


MADDICKS, ARTHUR "ARTIE" 
 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS 
*X 30 (pp.12-14) 
 


MARVEL GIRL / JEAN GREY SUMMERS 
BIZADV 27-FB (pp.4-5)  Jean is in shock from Annie's death. 
*X:WA-FB (diary entry #1)  Prof. X brings Jean back to consciousness in the hospital. 
*X:WA-FB (diary entry #2)  Jean lives in the mansion and begins learning about her mutation. 
*BIZADV 27-FB (p.6 panel 1)  Prof. X begins training Jean in TK. 
* UX 273-FB (moved up from below)  Prof. X introduces Jean to Cerebro. 
*CX 42/2 (moved up from below)  Jean meets Scott through Cerebro. 
*X:WA-FB (diary entry #3)  Jean writes about meeting Scott mentally. 
UX 1  Jean, age 11, is cured and living back at home. 
XMF 3  Jean is a freshman in high school. 
XMF 4  continues from XMF #3. 
-(X: WEDDING ALBUM 1-FB)  should be removed. 
-(PXX 1)  should be removed or moved up to UX #1. 
UX 322-FB  the day Jean leaves to join the X-Men. 
UX 1 (p.1-p.8 panel 2)  Jean arrives in a taxi. 
*X:WA-FB  Scott takes Jean's bag at the door, from diary entry #4. 
UX 1 (p.8 panel 3-p.15)  Jean meets the X-Men. 
*X:WA-BTS (diary entry #4)  Jean writes about meeting "Slim" in person. 
UX 1 (pp.16-23)  Jean puts on her costume for the first time, and fights Magneto. 
*UX 308-FB (moved down from above)  Jean, in costume, asks Scott his name in the Danger Room. 
*X:WA-BTS (diary entry #5)  Jean writs about Scott and that day's battle with Magneto. 
UX 2 
 
UX 32 (pp.1-12) 
UX 138-FB  the kiss! 
UX 32 (pp.13-20) 
UX 33 
UX 34 (p.1-p.2 panel 5)  Jean returns to her dorm. 
*X:WA-BTS (diary entry #6)  Jean writes about Scott's declaration of love. 
UX 34 (p.2 panel 6-p.20)  Jean calls Ted Roberts back. 
UX 35 
 
GSX 1-FB  captured by Krakoa. 
GSX 1 (p. 27 panel 5, p.28 panel 1)  prisoner of Krakoa. 
*X:WA-FB  freed from the vines, from diary entry #7. 
GSX 1 (p.28 panel 2-p.36)  the X-Men defeat Krakoa. 
CX 1 (pp.19-30)  Jean sees behind Wolvie's rough facade. 
*X:WA-BTS (diary entry #7)  Jean writes about meeting Wolverine. 
CX 27/2 (if this is truly where this story belongs) 
CX 1 (pp.31-32) 
UX 94 
 
XF 68 
*UX 310-FB  Scott mourns the loss of Nathan. 
IG 2-BTS 
 
X 29 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*X:WA-BTS ? (the note to her mother  do we really need to include a BTS for a given issue in the listings when it's right next to a full appearance from the same issue?) 
*X:WA 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60 (p.10) 
*X 30 (pp.12-14) 
*X:WA/2 
*X 30 (pp.17-20) 
*WI2 60 (pp.26-27) 
*X 30-BTS (pp.21-22) 
*X:WA/3-BTS  Scott and Jean's thank-you card to their wedding guests. 
*C&P 1-FB (needs to be added) Scott and Jean are pulled into the future. 
C&P 1 
C&P 2 
M/VS 1/5-FB 
C&P3 
C&P4 
See Phoenix IV 


MAXIMOFF, LUNA 
 
*WI2 60-BTS (pp.1-2) (probably) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS (p.10) 
*X 30 (pp.12-14) 
*X:WA/2 
*X 30 (pp.17-20) 
 


*MILLER, NICOLE (new entry) 

*X:WA-BTS 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS 
*X 30 (pp.12-20) (assuming she's the blonde in the blue dress on p.17, otherwise BTS here) 


*MOTHER ASKANI / RACHEL SUMMERS (ALTERNATE FUTURE) (new entry) 
*(diverges from PHOENIX III at EXCAL 75) 
*X:P 1 
*X:P 2 
*X:P 3 
*C&P 1 
*C&P 2 
*C&P 3 
*C&P 4 
*ASKANISON 1 
*ASKANISON 2 
*ASKANISON 3 
*ASKANISON 4 
*C2 23 
*UX 1 
*C2 65 
*C2 71 


NIGHTCRAWLER / KURT WAGNER 
 
EXCAL 74 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*UX 310 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60 
*X 30-BTS (pp.12-14) 
*X:WA/2 
EXCAL 75 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 


PHOENIX III / RACHEL SUMMERS 
 
EXCAL 74 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60 
*X 30 (pp.12-20) 
EXCAL 75 (Gap book, not yet on MCP) 
-(X:P 1)  everything in parenthesis below should be removed, and switched to a listing for MOTHER ASKANI 
-(X:P 2) 
-(X:P 3) 
-(C&P 1) 
-(C&P 2) 
-(C&P 3) 
-(C&P 4) 
-(ASKANISON 1) 
-(ASKANISON 2) 
-(ASKANISON 3) 
-(ASKANISON 4) 
-(C2 23) 
-(UX 1) 
-(C2 65) 
-(C2 71) 
C2 85-FB  this is *our* Rachel's next appearance after EXCAL 75, arriving in Gaunt's future. 
C2 82 
 


POLARIS / LORNA DANE 
 
NW 46 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*WI2 60 (pp.1-2) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS (p.10) 
*X 30 (pp.12-20) 
XF 101 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 


PROFESSOR X / CHARLES XAVIER 
 
UX 309-FB  I'm not sure why this FB is listed, as it's a Gap book and the issue itself isn't listed. 
UX 321-FB  I dont think this is the right place for this FB, but I can't put my finger on why, so I'll leave it be for now. 
*X:WA-FB (diary entry #1)  Prof. X brings Jean back to consciousness in the hospital. 
* X:WA-FB (diary entry #2)  Jean lives in the mansion and begins learning about her mutation. 
BIZADV 27-FB  Prof. X begins training Jean in TK. 
*UX 273-FB  Prof. X introduces Jean to Cerebro. 
-(X: WEDDING ALBUM 1-FB)  should be moved to below CX #42/2. 
*CX 42/2  Jean meets Scott through Cerebro. 
* X:WA-FB (diary entry #3)  Jean writes about meeting Scott mentally. 
UX 38/2 
 
X 29 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60 
*X 30 (pp.12-22) 
XF 101 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 


PSYLOCKE / ELISABETH BRADDOCK 
 
X 29 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS 
*X 30 (pp.12-16) 
*X:WA/2 
*X 30 (pp.17-20) 
X 31 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 


QUICKSILVER / PIETRO MAXIMOFF 
 
*WI2 60 (pp.1-2) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS (p.10) 
*X 30 (pp.12-14) 
*X:WA/2 
*X 30 (p.16-20) 
 


RICTOR / JULIO ESTEBAN RICHTER 
 
XFO 34 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS 
*X 30-BTS (pp.12-14) 
*X:WA/2 (pp.4-6) 
*X 30 (p.16) 
*X:WA/2 (pp.7-12) (probably) 
 


ROGUE / "ANNA RAVEN" 
 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS (p.10) 
*X 30 (pp.12-14) 
*WI2 60 (p.18) 
*X 30 (p.16) 
*X:WA/2 
*X 30 (pp.17-20) 
*WI2 60 (pp.26-27) 
X 31 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 


SABRETOOTH / VICTOR CREED 
 
X 29 (Gap issue, not yet in MCP) 
*UX 310 
*X 30 
UX 311 (Gap issue, not yet in MCP) 
 


SHADOWCAT / KITTY PRYDE 
 
EXCAL 74 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*WI2 60 (pp.1-2) 
*X:WA/2 (p.1) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS (p.10) 
*X 30-BTS (pp.12-14) 
*X:WA/2-BTS (pp.4-12)  working the camera. 
*X 30-BTS (pp.17-20) (probably)  working the camera. 
*WI2 60-BTS (pp.26-27) (probably)  working the camera. 
EXCAL 75 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 


SHATTERSTAR / GAVEEDRA-7 / "BENJAMIN RUSSELL" 
 
XFO 34 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS 
*X 30-BTS (pp.12-14) 
*X:WA/2 
 


SIRYN / THERESA ROURKE CASSIDY 
 
XFO 34 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) (probably) 
*WI2 60-BTS (probably) 
*X 30-BTS (pp.12-14) (probably) 
 


STORM / ORORO MUNROE 
 
*X:WA 
*WI2 60 (pp.1-2) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS (p.10) 
*X 30 (pp.12-20) 
XF 101 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 


STRONG GUY / GUIDO CAROSELLA 
 
NW 46 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*UX 310 
*WI2 60 (pp.1-2) 
*X 30 (pp.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS (p.10) 
*X 30 (pp.12-14) 
*WI2 60 (p.18) 
*X:WA/2 
*X 30 (p.16-20) 
*WI2 60 (pp.26-27) 
XF 101 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 


SUMMERS, DEBORAH 
 
*X 30 (p.1-11) 
*WI2 60 
*X 30 (pp.12-14) 
 


SUMMERS, PHILIP 
 
*X 30 (p.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS 
*X 30 (pp.12-14) 
 


WARPATH / JAMES PROUDSTAR 
 
XFO 34 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*X 30 (p.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS (p.10) 
*X 30 (pp.12-20) 
*WI2 60 (pp.26-27) (probably) 
 


WATCHER / UATU 
 
*WI2 60 
 


WHITE QUEEN / EMMA FROST 
 
*UX 310 
UX 311 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 


WOLFSBANE / RAHNE SINCLAIR 
 
NW 46 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*X 30 (p.1-11) 
*WI2 60-BTS (p.10) 
*X 30 (pp.12-16) 
*WI2 60 (pp.26-27) (probably) 
XF 101 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 


WOLVERINE / JAMES HOWLETT / "LOGAN" 
 
GSX 1 (pp.5-6) 
AF 52-FB 
GSX 1 (p.14-p.15 panel 3) 
X:L 2-FB 
GSX 1 (p.15 panel 3-p.28 panel 1) 
*X:WA-FB  the old X-Men are freed from the vines, from diary entry #7. 
GSX 1 (p.28 panel 2-p.36)  the X-Men defeat Krakoa. 
CX 1 (pp.19-30) 
CX 27/2 (if this is truly where this story belongs) 
CX 1 (pp.31-32) 
 
X 25 (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
W2 75 (pp.1-36) (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
*X 30-BTS  writing the letters read in X #30. 
W2 75 (pp.37-38) (Gap book, not yet in MCP) 
 
*WI2 60 
*X 30 
 


X-CUTIONER / CARL DENTI 
UX@17 (Gap book, not in MCP) 
*UX 310 
XM 11 


			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Feb 2004 02:53 am    
By david

Good list, Jeph. One minor quibble - you're missing two flashbacks set during Wolverine 75! If you like, I'll show where they should be added.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Feb 2004 05:07 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Hey, great work! 

I was thinking, though, is it possible that Brian and Meggan attended the ceremony, then left early? Or does Excalibur #75 explicitly state that they weren't there? 

- Nathan P. Mahney -
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Feb 2004 11:26 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
you're missing two flashbacks set during Wolverine 75! 
<<<


Uh ... flashbacks FROM the books I was analyzing? I really don't think so ... but okay, hit me -- what are they? 

Quote: 
>>>
is it possible that Brian and Meggan attended the ceremony, then left early? 
<<<


No. Brian had been lost in the timestream since Excalibur #68, and he wasn't rescued until Excalibur #75, which is just AFTER the wedding. And ever since Brian was lost, Meggan had been in an almost-catatonic state of extreme depression -- she, too, didn't recover until EXCAL #75. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Feb 2004 04:18 pm    
By david

Quote: 
>>>
Uh ... flashbacks FROM the books I was analyzing? I really don't think so ... but okay, hit me -- what are they? 
<<<

Everything up to Wolverine 75 is okay. Here's where you need to make the changes: 
Under Wolverine's bio, change the following - 
Wolverine 75 pp 1-35 
X Men 30-BTS 
Wolverine 75 p. 36 panel 1 ~ Gen X 34 p.13 panel 1-FB 
Wolverine 75 p. 36 panels 2-3 
Gen X 34 p.13 panels 2-3-FB 
Wolverine 75 p.36 panel 4

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Feb 2004 04:49 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Okay, a few things: 

Gen X #34 isn't one of the books I was discussing in this post -- I was discussing how the X-Men Wedding issues fit into other comics. In that sense, I'm not "missing" the flashbacks you mention -- I didn't mess up -- they're a completely different topic of conversation. 

However, since those FBs tie tightly into a scene that I just wedged other stuff into here, I suppose this is a good place to discuss them ... and discuss them I shall. :-) 

Flashbacks that add no new material generally aren't included on the MCP -- especially not using the "~" notation. That's generally used to link scenes that came out in books published simultaneously (like the old "Infinity War" crossover issues that repeated scenes from IW verbatim) -- it's not used to link a flashback back to its original scene. 

So Gen X #34 p.13 panel 1, which doesn't add any new information, doesn't need to be included. (And, by the way, I read it as synching up with Wolverine v2 #75 p.36 panel *3*, myself, rather than panel 1 as you have it.) 

The placement of your second FB, Gen X #34 p.13 panels 2-3, though, I agree with. 

So, yeah: 

WOLVERINE 

W2 75 (pp.1-35) 
*X 30-BTS 
W2 75 (p.36 panels 1-3) 
*GENX 34-FB (p.13 panels 2-3) 
W2 75 (p.36 panel 4, pp.37-38) 

Since we're discussing Gen X #34, do you know of any other FBs from that issue that we've missed? I'd like to make sure we take a thorough look at it while we've got it out, before it gets filed back in the "already properly in the MCP" pile. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Feb 2004 05:08 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Flashbacks that add no new material generally aren't included on the MCP -- especially not using the "~" notation. 
<<<


Thank you! I've been meaning to bring this up for a while. A lot of people seem to want to include flashbacks in their squiggles. You should never see a "FB" on the same line with a "~"; they're mutually exclusive, by definition. 


watching: lord of the rings: fellowship of the ring

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Feb 2004 11:35 pm    
By david

Jeph:
>>> 
Quote: 
So Gen X #34 p.13 panel 1, which doesn't add any new information, doesn't need to be included. 
<<<

Okay, I'll change it now. 

Quote: 
>>>
(And, by the way, I read it as synching up with Wolverine v2 #75 p.36 panel *3*, myself, rather than panel 1 as you have it.)  
<<<

Why panel 3 instead of panel 1? 

Quote: 
>>>
The placement of your second FB, Gen X #34 p.13 panels 2-3, though, I agree with. 
<<<

Okay. 

Quote: 

>>>
WOLVERINE 
W2 75 (pp.1-35) 
*X 30-BTS 
W2 75 (p.36 panels 1-3) 
*GENX 34-FB (p.13 panels 2-3) 
W2 75 (p.36 panel 4, pp.37-38) 
<<<
 

I'm happy with this! 

Quote: 
>>>
Since we're discussing Gen X #34, do you know of any other FBs from that issue that we've missed? I'd like to make sure we take a thorough look at it while we've got it out, before it gets filed back in the "already properly in the MCP" pile. 

-Jeph!  
<<<

Page 12 has three flashbacks: 
Gen X 27-FB (panel 1) 
Wolverine 117-FB (panel 2) 
X Men 25-FB (panel 3)

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Feb 2004 04:23 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
You should never see a "FB" on the same line with a "~"; they're mutually exclusive, by definition. 
<<<


I'm not sure I'd go that far. You might, for example, have a scene in COMIC #10, and a flashback in COMIC #15 which shows the same events but from a different perspective (and thereby reveals more information).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Feb 2004 11:25 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
"by the way, I read [Gen X #34 p.13 panel 1] as synching up with Wolverine v2 #75 p.36 panel *3*, myself, rather than panel 1 as you have it.)" 

Why panel 3 instead of panel 1? 
<<<

Well, look at them. The Gen X flashback shows Wolvie, holding his duffle, standing over a sleeping Jubilee. That corresponds exactly to W2 #75 p.36 panel 3, where Wolvie stares down at a sleeping Jubilee -- in panel 1, Wolvie is walking down the hall to Jubilee's room, so this DOESN'T match up to the Gen X flashback. 

Quote: 
>>>
"Since we're discussing Gen X #34, do you know of any other FBs from that issue that we've missed?" 

Page 12 has three flashbacks: 
Gen X 27-FB (panel 1) 
Wolverine 117-FB (panel 2) 
X Men 25-FB (panel 3) 
<<<

I'm asking about flashbacks that contain *new information* ... it doesn't look to me like any of those tell us anything new, am I right? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Feb 2004 12:37 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
You might, for example, have a scene in COMIC #10, and a flashback in COMIC #15 which shows the same events but from a different perspective (and thereby reveals more information). 
<<<


Depends on what you mean by "different perspective" and "more information." A flashback from a different character's perspective that didn't show any new information wouldn't show up here as a flashback. If it does show new information, perhaps a new word balloon, it shouldn't be treated as a synchronous appearance: the flashback would show up in between panels of the original appearance. 



watching: ncaa basketball

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Feb 2004 08:49 pm    
By david

Jeph: 
>>>
Quote: 
Well, look at them. The Gen X flashback shows Wolvie, holding his duffle, standing over a sleeping Jubilee. That corresponds exactly to W2 #75 p.36 panel 3, where Wolvie stares down at a sleeping Jubilee -- in panel 1, Wolvie is walking down the hall to Jubilee's room, so this DOESN'T match up to the Gen X flashback. 
<<<

Eek. You're right, I didn't spot the different lamps in panels 1 & 3! D'oh. 

Quote: 
>>>
I'm asking about flashbacks that contain *new information* ... it doesn't look to me like any of those tell us anything new, am I right? 
<<<


You didn't ask for new information, you just wanted to know what other flashbacks there were. 

By the way, have you looked at my profiles yet?

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Feb 2004 07:22 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
"I'm asking about flashbacks that contain *new information*..." 

You didn't ask for new information, you just wanted to know what other flashbacks there were. 
<<<


It was sort of implied, I thought. So either way, I assume the answer is no. 

Quote: 
>>>
By the way, have you looked at my profiles yet? 
<<<


Given that the only things in your profiles were first-Gap books ... and the Administrator wants to close the first gap entirely on his own ... no, I haven't. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Feb 2004 08:26 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Third row: two unknowns (intended to be Meggan and Captain Britain, but events in Excalibur #74-75 make their presence impossible) 
<<<


Jeph, I've never thought that these two were supposed to be Meggan and Captain Britain, since there was no way these two could have attended the wedding. 

I've always thought these two were supposed to be Ka-Zar and Shanna. 

In X-Men Unlimited #1 (a book set between UX 300 and 301) 
Cyclops and Storm are visiting Ka-Zar and Shanna. Ka-Zar asks Cyslops "What about you Scott? When are you going to make Jean an honest woman and start raising little mutants of your own?" 

I've always thought that Scott might have asked him and Shanna to the wedding. 


Also the "unkown" woman doesn't look anything like Meggan to me. 


Dave Hall

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Feb 2004 08:38 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I've never thought that these two were supposed to be Meggan and Captain Britain, since there was no way these two could have attended the wedding. 
<<<

You know that and I know that, but did Andy Kubert know that? I'm still under the impression that he was just drawing the current rosters of all the X-teams, and got a bit mixed up. The fact that these two are sitting in the same row as Nightcrawler and Rachel is a clue to me that Andy intended them to be CB and Meggan... 

Quote: 
>>>
I've always thought these two were supposed to be Ka-Zar and Shanna. 
<<<

Huh, there's a thought. But don't you think the man is just a bit too BIG to be Ka-Zar? 

Quote: 
>>>
Also the "unkown" woman doesn't look anything like Meggan to me. 
<<<

Which, the one to the large man's right (our left)? She kind of does ... given Andy Kubert's artistic limits (does Rachel look like Rachel? Does Iceman look like Iceman? Ugh). 

It's tempting, but unless we can get some better evidence that Scott or Jean *did* ask Ka-Zar to the wedding, I'm going to have to leave them both as "unknown". 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:03 am    Post subject: Correction of statement earlier in this thread; Guardians
By Scathach80

"Timelines diverge all the time  to use the GotG example above, Major Victory is a divergent Justice, one who diverged at M/TIO #69." 

A bit of tangent, but one I must go on; the timeline of the Guardians of the Galaxy actually diverged before Marvel Two-In-One#69. 

Vance Astro received an entry in the original Official Handbook (in with the V's), and then years later one in Update'89#1. Both entries contained this passage: 

"Astro volunteered for the first manned interstellar mission ever conducted by the United States government. *In this alternate future Reed Richards never released his own experimental starship to the government*." (The original handbook entry even goes on to say that the authorities did not even know that Richards had embarked on such a project.) 

(asterix mine) 

So that would mean that the Guardians of the Galaxy's world diverged at some point before Marvel Two-In-One#69.

********************************************************************************************

Thread 44

Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 9:28 am    Post subject: Crimson Dynamo
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Yes, somebody actually read it. 

OLD TOYS 
CRIMSON DYNAMO #1-6 
October 2003 to April 2004 

General comments: 
This is an Epic book, but it was certainly intended to be canon. The final issue contains express references to events in contemporary issues of IRON MAN. 

However, the story faces timeline problems. Writer John Jackson Miller wants to keep the idea of the original Crimson Dynamo as a Cold War character. But the Cold War ended twenty years ago, and it's not possible for the Dynamo to have fought Iron Man if his career took place entirely within the Cold War. Since the glitch can't just be glossed over, Miller ends up having to rewrite history, deleting the original Crimson Dynamo story in its entirety, and replacing it with the closest equivalent that still fits history. 

Although the book contains this glaring retcon, the reality is that all Cold War-era characters face similar problems where their history just can't have happened as depicted. The Dynamo is simply a rare example of a writer having to address the problem head-on. 

The revised origin is convoluted in terms of its timeline references, so I've listed it separately from the rest of the synopsis. 

Note that the lead character, Gennady Gavrilov, is never referred to as "the Crimson Dynamo." That's just the name of the armour. 

Gennady's mother Anna has remarried a man called Stepan, but we're never told his surname. I've listed her below as Anna Gavrilova, even though that's presumably no longer her name. (Russian surnames have masculine and feminine genders, so her original married name would be "Gavrilova", not "Gavrilov.") 

"Alexander Devereaux" is a pseudonym; issue #4 reveals that his real surname is Lachance, but his full name is never given. 

Synopsis: 
* Crimson Dynamo #1, page 1 panel 4 to page 3, panels 1; page 3, panels 3 and 5 - flashback. Aged 3, during the collapse of the Soviet Union, Gennady Gavrilov realises that his mother has sold all of his toys for money (though she denies it). [In issue #2, Gennady's age is given as 17 - so this is 14 years ago.] 

Characters: Gennady Dmitrievich Gavrilov, Anna Gavrilova 

* Crimson Dynamo #1, pp4-5 (flashback). Moscow. At school, teenage Gennady is caught stealing the batteries from the school clocks. The Dean decides to get rid of Gennady by packing him off for compulsory vocational training. 

Characters: Gennady Gavrilov, Dean Oleg Olegivich Zilberfarb 

* Crimson Dynamo #1, pp6-7 (flashback). Gennady is sent to intern at Moscow State University. The University is in the process of scanning decades of personnel files. Gennady's job is to find and collect the documents from the warehouses. 

Characters: Gennady Gavrilov, Professor Irina Shubnikova. 

* Crimson Dynamo #1. Day 1 of the main story. Moscow. Gennady Gavrilov talks online with a girl in Louisiana ("CajunAngel17", named as Angelica in issue #4). He is meant to be collecting the files but is using the internet connection instead. After she signs off, Gennady finds a forgotten box containing papers for Anton Vanko (the original Crimson Dynamo). Inside, he finds the helmet for a set of Dynamo armour. He puts the helmet on when riding back to Moscow on his scooter and discovers that it also picks up television. 

When he arrives at Moscow, Gennady flicks a switch and inadvertantly turns on the armour which the helmet is supposed to fit. The armour is in a military warehouse in Siberia. It smashes its way out of its crate and then just stands there. The corrupt guards contact arms dealer Devereaux, who arrives eight hours later and is delighted at the prospect of acquiring a Dynamo armour. American arms inspectors are also at the base, and Devereaux hopes to get the armour out without them noticing. One of the Russian guards tries to stop Devereaux, who shoots him. 

At home, Gennady experiments with the helmet. When he puts it on, the Dynamo starts to march towards Moscow, smashing all opposition aside. Eventually Gennady starts to receive a feed from the Dynamo armour itself, but he assumes that it's just a video game. 

Characters: CajunAngel17, Alexander Devereaux, Anna Gavrilova, Gennady Gavrilov, Wayne Jennings (the US weapons inspector), Max (Devereaux's sidekick), Stepan (Gennady's stepfather) 

* Crimson Dynamo #2, pages 1-3. Day 5. According to the media, the Crimson Dynamo armour has now been marching on Moscow "for five days." Gennady, who hasn't been watching the news, still thinks he's playing a video game. (What do you mean, "the plot is crap"?) 

Characters: Anna Gavrilova, Gennady Gavrilov, Nelli (Gennady's stepsister), Stepan 

* Crimson Dynamo #2, pages 4-20. Day 6? (It can't be much later because Gennady says he's been playing his "game" for a week in the next scene.) At work, Gennady talks with CajunAngel17 again. That night, Devereaux attends an ice hockey match in Omsk (because his cover is as a hockey scout). He discusses the armour's actions with his sidekick Max. Deveraux still wants to get control of the armour. 15 km outside Omsk, the Russian army and weapons inspector Jennings prepare to confront the armour. Acting on autopilot, the armour stumbles into a pit dug by Deveraux's men. However, Gennady returns home and resumes his "game." He fights off the armour's attackers, but shortly afterwards he loses contact with the armour. Assuming that the armour is broken, and realising that he's been playing through the night and it's now dawn, Gennady heads off to school... [The timeline on this doesn't make a tremendous amount of sense, since it's hard to see where all the time goes overnight.] 

Characters: CajunAngel17, Alexander Devereaux, Anna Gavrilova, Gennady Gavrilov, Wayne Jennings, Max, Tamara, Oksana Vasileyeva Zilberfarb 

* Crimson Dynamo #2, pages 21-22. Day 7. At school the next day, Gennady finally sees news reports of the Dynamo's rampage and realises what he's been doing. Meanwhile, the armour itself has landed on the back of a freight train and is being carted to Moscow. 

Characters: Gennady Gavrilov, Oksana Zilberfarb, Tamara 

* Crimson Dynamo #3, pages 1-18. Still Day 7. The French Embassy in Moscow - an aide, Jourdain, tells the Ambassador that their rogue agent Devereaux has been sighted near the Crimson Dynamo. However, Devereaux is believed dead, and the Ambassador is not persuaded that he is alive. At the US Embassy, Jennings reports back to his own government. And in the Kremlin, President Putin is briefed by General Konovalov. 

In a branch of MacDonalds, Gennady finally reads the papers and panics. Devereaux contacts Gennady through the helmet and asks where the helmet is. When Gennady does not tell him, Devereaux explains that the armour is coming to Moscow to get the helmet, and he plans to get there first. Next, Gennady gets a call from his stepsister Nelli to tell him that he's being expelled from school. 

Gennady and his mother Anna go to school. Anna blackmails the Dean to let Gennady stay in school, claiming that she can block his daughter's university application because of her job (which is untrue). 

The armour resumes walking again after the train journey finishes. Gennady tries to stop it using the helmet, but he does not have authority to cancel the homing sequence. Meanwhile, Jennings and the Russian soldiers confront the Dynamo again. Gennady stops the Dynamo from hurting them, and manages to programme it to take an alternate path to Moscow which won't cause so much damage. 

Characters: Alexander Devereaux, Wayne Jennings, Jourdain, General Pavel Ivanovich Konovalov, Nelli, Oksana Zilberfarb, President Putin, Tamara, Oleg Zilberfarb, Anna Gavrilova, the French Ambassador 

* Crimson Dynamo #3, pp19-22. Day 8. Past midnight, the same night. 1am - at the Gavrilov family home, Gennady's mother tries to talk to him. After she leaves, Gennady contacts CajunAngel17 and asks for suggestions on what to do about the Dynamo. On her suggestion, in the morning, Gennady goes to Moscow State University and gets directions to Anton Vanko's old office, hoping to find something there that might help. However, Devereaux and Max also arrive, with the same idea in mind. 

Characters: Gennady Gavrilov, Anna Gavrilova, CajunAngel17, Alexander Devereaux, Max 

* Crimson Dynamo #4. Still Day 8. On autopilot, the Dynamo armour marches up the River Volga towards Moscow. Jennings learns that it is battle armour and not a robot as he'd previously thought. Jourdain (from the French embassy) leaks information to Jennings about Devereaux's involvement with the armour. 

At the University, Gennady eludes Devereaux. When the armour gets close to the Russian soldiers, Gennady's helmet sounds an alarm, and he puts it on. Jennings holds up a sign to the Dynamo telling him that Devereaux wants to kill him, and giving a contact e-mail address. Gennady escapes with Vanko's old computer and cassette tapes and heads to the warehouse to work through the data. Devereaux also makes his way to the warehouse site, but there are 34 warehouses to hunt through. 

Gennady contacts CajunAngel17 and asks her to get her brother Kenney (sic) to help him contact Jennings anonymously. Kenney agrees. Gennady and Jennings exchange information. Jennings immediately calls Tony Stark, who agrees to help. Meanwhile, Devereaux's men finally find the right warehouse and attack Gennady. 

(Iron Man appears in this story between Iron Man #72-73 - his appearance in the next issue is directly pinned to a scene in Iron Man #73.) 

Characters: Wayne Jennings, Jourdain, Gennady Gavrilov, Alexander Devereaux, Max, CajunAngel17, Kenney, Iron Man, Sergei Yurivich (one of Devereaux's henchmen) 

* Crimson Dynamo #5, pages 1-18. Still Day 8. Louisiana - CajunAngel17 recaps the plot for the benefit of her mother and new readers. 

The warehouse complex: Gennady eludes Devereaux's men and escapes, but they manage to get one of Vanko's data tapes. 

"Later that night", President Putin discusses the situation with the military. The Russians have declined the Avengers' offer of help because they don't trust the USA. Meanwhile, Gennady reads through the data he got from Vanko's tapes, giving us a lengthy revised origin flashback for Vanko. He also learns that getting the armour to walk up the River Volga wasn't such a good idea after all - the armour is incomplete, and lengthy immersion in water is likely to cause a huge electromagnetic pulse. The excess energy has to be channelled using the armour's gauntlets, but they're not there - because Vanko didn't get around to building them before defecting. 

Iron Man contacts Gennady over the helmet and fills in more details about the back story of the Crimson Dynamo. Iron Man advises Gennady to seek help from the Russian government, but Gennady refuses, saying that they will throw him in jail. Iron Man then advises Gennady to forward Vanko's data to Jennings, explaining that he is otherwise occupied because "I'm on my way to a rescue now as it is." He advises Gennady to flee Moscow with the helmet so that the armour will be drawn away from the city. All of this is monitored by Devereaux and Max. Deveraux decides on a change of plan - since the USSR routed almost everything through Moscow, if the armour comes to Moscow and detonates, the country will be crippled and he and his allies will be able to seize power. 

(During this scene, Iron Man is shown helping with a rescue at sea. It's clearly the submarine rescue from Iron Man vol 3 #73, since Iron Man is carrying the same equipment around. Therefore, he appears in this story between pages 12 and 13 of that issue.) 

Characters: CajunAngel17, her mother, Gennady Gavrilov, Sergei Yurivich, Alexander Devereaux, Max, President Putin, Iron Man, Anna Gavrilova. 

* Crimson Dynamo #5, pp19-22. Day 9. Dawn. Gennady's mother catches him as he leaves and wishes him well, even though he won't explain what's going on. Afternoon; Gennady has left Moscow and is trying to get a train to Archangelsk. But the armour is still heading for Moscow, because the helmet has run out of power and is no longer sending a signal. In order to re-establish a connection, Gennady will have to get into line of sight of the armour. Evening; wearing the helmet, Gennady arrives in Red Square just as the military are about to open fire on the armour, which is crackling with electricity. 

Characters: Gennady Gavrilov, Anna Gavrilova 

* Crimson Dynamo #6, pages 1-17. Day 9, evening. On seeing Gennady, the armour starts to follow him. He escapes with the armour into the subway and puts it on. Devereaux follows. However, the armour's power is overloaded, and it is not working properly. Wayne Jennings arrives with the gauntlets, which Vanko had built in America and ended up in Tony Stark's custody. With the gauntlets installed, the Dynamo armour vents its power harmlessly. The Russian authorities try to arrest the Dynamo for murdering the guards at its original storage facility, but Gennady points out that the armour couldn't have strangled them because its fingers don't move when there's nobody inside. Gennady absconds with the armour. 

Characters: Gennady Gavrilov, Alexander Devereaux, Max, Wayne Jennings 

* Crimson Dynamo #6, pp18-21. "One month later." Angel and Gennady are still exchanging messages, and we get an epilogue summarising what everyone's up to. Jennings is still trying to make contact with them. Devereaux has built a new cover identity as a fisherman (though nobody else knows that, of course). For no particularly good reason other than closure, Anna and Stepan are getting on better. Gennady is keeping the armour as a keepsake in the basement of the warehouse where he found the helmet, and has decorated it to his own taste. Tony Stark, meanwhile, is "in politics now" and hasn't had time to follow up - we see Stark in the Oval Office with President Bush and Stu Conrad, subsequently giving a press conference. 

(The press conference is in front of a "White House" logo, not a "Pentagon" logo, so it isn't meant to be one from the "Best Defense" arc in Iron Man. The most sensible reading is that Tony is in fact Secretary of Defense by this point, but the story can't come out and say so because the relevant issue of Iron Man hadn't shipped yet.) 

Characters: CajunAngel17, her mother, her father, Gennady Gavrilov, Wayne Jennings, Alexander Devereaux, Anna Gavrilova, Stepan, Iron Man, Stu Conrad, President Bush 

Now, then... 

Anton Vanko's revised origin. 

All of the following are from issue #5. Unless otherwise stated, Vanko is the only significant character appearing. 

p9pn3: Vanko working in his lab. Vanko's narration says that he has "been selected by Chairman Brezhnev to consult with the Minister of Defense" after his engineering research has proved successful. (Leonid Brezhnv was Chairman of the Supreme Soviet from 1977 until his death in 1982. This scene is in 1981 at latest.) 

p9pn4: "17 October" [1981]. Vanko in a meeting with Suslov, who wants him to revive the long-forgotten Crimson Dynamo project. (This would be Mikhail Suslov, a high ranking official in the Soviet state at around that time.) 

p9pn5: "25 January" [1982]. Vanko at his secret facility in Tomsk. Narration says that Suslov died today, which is historically accurate. 

p10pn1: "13 August" [1982]. Vanko builds a successful prototype of the armour, but it is so heavy that only a large man like Vanko himself can operate it. 

p10pn2: "10 November" [1982]. More of Vanko at work. Narration says Brezhnev died today - again, this is historically accurate. 

p10pn3: "30 March" [1983]. Vanko's technicians work while he reads a letter from home with alarm - his native Armenians are being suppressed in Nagorno-Karabakh. Andropov is turning a blind eye. Vanko considers downing tools in protest, but his project nears completion and he is too enthralled to stop. (Yuri Andropov was leader of the USSR from November 1982 until February 1984, so if he's leader and it's March, it must be 1983.) 

p10pn4: "5 April" [1983]. Vanko has an idea involving communications satellites. 

p10pn5: "7 July" [1983]. Vanko's grumblings about Armenia have been noticed, and a sinister assistant, Nevsky, has turned up. Vanko is sure that he is a KGB informer. (Vanko and Nevsky appear. Nevsky, of course, goes on to become the third Crimson Dynamo.) 

p10pn6: "2 September" [1983]. Vanko secretly works on designs for the Mark 2 Crimson Dynamo - the one which appears in this series. 

p11pn1: "22 October" [1983]. No characters - this shows a satellite in orbit. 

p11pn2: "17 December" [1983]. Vanko reads a scientific paper published by Tony Stark as a teenager. It gives him ideas about computerisation. 

p11pn3: "10 January" [1984]. Vanko looks with pride at the Mark 2 armour, which he has built in secret while Nevsky is away. According to the narration, Andropov is ailing. 

p11pn4: "28 April" [1984]. A Russian general argues with Vanko about putting the Mark I armour into the field. Narration says that Chernenko has been pressuring for this "since Andropov's death", and that Vanko is diverting his funding into the secret Mark II project. (Konstantin Chernenko died in March 1985, so if he's in power and it's April, it must be 1984.) 

p11pn5: "18 June" [1984]. Vanko meets Gorbachev and is impressed. He thinks Gorbachev should have been made leader instead of Chernenko. According to the narration, Vanko fears that conservatives want him dead. 

p12: "17 August" [1984]. On Chernenko's orders, the Mark I Crimson Dynamo is despatched to the USA to attack the American munitions industry. This is a political attack in response to Reagan's threat to bomb Russia, made during the 1984 Olympics. Vanko is sent to operate the Mark I armour, because he never got around to making a lighter version. 

p15pn4: As the original Crimson Dynamo, Vanko attacks Stark Industries, which at that point is still being run by Tony Stark's father. Tony, aged 19, confronts the Dynamo and persuades him to defect. (This is an outright retcon. The Crimson Dynamo debuted in Tales of Suspense #46, where his mission was to assassinate Iron Man.) 

p16pn1: Vanko and Tony Stark work together in a Stark laboratory. (The accompanying narration suggests that Stark is still 19 at this point. There is some suggestion that the ropey-but-functional Crimson Dynamo armour inspired Stark to build the Iron Man armour.) 

p16pn3: Normal continuity at last resumes, as Vanko sacrifices his life saving Tony Stark from an assassin wearing the stolen Crimson Dynamo armour. This would be the second Crimson Dynamo, Boris Turgenov, from Tales of Suspense #52. Stark's narration says that Turgenov was sent by the KGB. The KGB continued to exist under that name until 1991 and this was a very early Iron Man story, so it might perhaps remain canon in its original form. 

p16pn5: Generic panel of Iron Man fighting some of the later Crimson Dynamos (symbolic).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:17 am    Post subject: Crimson Dynamo
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
However, the story faces timeline problems. Writer John Jackson Miller wants to keep the idea of the original Crimson Dynamo as a Cold War character. But the Cold War ended twenty years ago, and it's not possible for the Dynamo to have fought Iron Man if his career took place entirely within the Cold War. Since the glitch can't just be glossed over, Miller ends up having to rewrite history, deleting the original Crimson Dynamo story in its entirety, and replacing it with the closest equivalent that still fits history. 

Although the book contains this glaring retcon, the reality is that all Cold War-era characters face similar problems where their history just can't have happened as depicted. The Dynamo is simply a rare example of a writer having to address the problem head-on. 

The revised origin is convoluted in terms of its timeline references, so I've listed it separately from the rest of the synopsis. 
<<<


That's the problem when writers always try to tell stories from the vantage point of the real present, despite the fact that time moves more slowly in the MU than in the real world. 

If we strip away the temporal references in the retcon flashback, is the chronology of the characters salvageable? Can we add this flashback to character chronologies and pretend the retcon references to specific real-world events and individuals don't exist? 


Quote: 
>>>
(Iron Man appears in this story between Iron Man #72-73 - his appearance in the next issue is directly pinned to a scene in Iron Man #73.)  
<<<


Wouldn't Tony be in Crimson Dynamo #4 between pages 6 and 7 of IM3 73? Pages 1-6 of IM3 73 occur before this day. 


Quote: 
>>>
(During this scene, Iron Man is shown helping with a rescue at sea. It's clearly the submarine rescue from Iron Man vol 3 #73, since Iron Man is carrying the same equipment around. Therefore, he appears in this story between pages 12 and 13 of that issue.)  
<<<


This means that the temporal references in issues of Crimson Dynamo and Iron Man v3 for this period are incompatible. I had drawn the conclusion that these stories were occurring during different times of the year, with Dynamo in winter and Iron Man in summer. Now the references in one of them (most likely Crimson Dynamo) will need to be topical. Sigh.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:58 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The fundamental problem posed by Anton Vanko's revised origin is that Miller has him going to America, attacking Stark Enterprises, meeting Tony Stark and defecting all while Stark is still a teenager and BEFORE he becomes Iron Man. This flatly contradicts the character's original appearance, where Vanko's mission was to assassinate Iron Man (and he then defected instead of carrying it out). 

This is clearly an intentional retcon, because the originally published story is entirely unworkable in 2004 - it would require Tony Stark to have been active as Iron Man for over 20 years in order to allow him to have fought villains during the Cold War. Miller has really only got two options - rewrite the history of the characters, or jettison the history of the Soviet Union. I think it's entirely understandable that he would choose to jettison a long-forgotten issue of Tales of Suspense, in preference to making his Russia drastically different from the real one. Frankly, I think it's the correct choice. 

To allow all of those Cold War stories to stand in continuity as originally published involves dramatically warping twentieth century history so that the Cold War is still at its peak as recently as the mid-nineties. I just don't think the preservation of topical references in thirty-year-old stories justifies doing that sort of damage to the real-world mapping of the modern Marvel Universe. 

The story Miller's trying to tell in Crimson Dynamo would be crippled by either rewriting Russian history, or making the Dynamo a post-Soviet villain - the point of the story is that the Dynamo armour symbolises a relic of Soviet power in a country that's since collapsed.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:41 pm    Post subject: Topical references
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
To allow all of those Cold War stories to stand in continuity as originally published involves dramatically warping twentieth century history so that the Cold War is still at its peak as recently as the mid-nineties. I just don't think the preservation of topical references in thirty-year-old stories justifies doing that sort of damage to the real-world mapping of the modern Marvel Universe.  
<<<


To me, there's nothing wrong with letting the Cold War stories stand as told. In fact, it's preferred. Just because 40 years have passed in the real world doesn't mean that it's been 40 MU years since then. 

Again, everyone (including Miller, it seems) is hung up on it being "2004" or "the present day" (from our vantage point) in the MU. While there's no doubt that there was a Cold War period, followed by the collapse of the Soviet Union in the MU, who says that events in the MU happened the same years that they did in the real world? It's impossible, given the slower pace of MU time. 

For me, it's better to condense real world-based topical references into a shorter period of time in the MU than to retcon stories so that the classic tales lose validity. 

Miller did have a THIRD option -- not to sacrifice the general history of the Soviet Union and not to rewrite the history of a character (major bad there), but rather to divorce the history of the Soviet Union from the real world calendar. When reading (and writing) MU stories, things should be viewed in the context of the MU, not the real world, IMHO. 

Case in point: we have MU's "9-11" occurring on September 11, but there's nothing that says we have to peg it to the year "2001" -- or forty years after FF 1 -- in the MU. 

If I were Miller and had only two options, as you suggest, I'd jettison the history of the Soviet Union (real world continuity) before jettisoning the history of a character (MU continuity). After all, where in the history of Africa, as we know it, is the rise of Wakanda? Why not have a fictional Soviet Union in the MU rather than one that slavishly apes the one from the real world? 

After all, we have a fictional U.S. in the MU, in which there seems to be a presidential election every year or two.  

I propose ignoring the retcon in Crimson Dynamo for the purposes of the MCP, as we ignore all retcons. Let's assume that the flashback explained things in a way that is compatible with established contunuity. We should still be able to consider the "current" story in Crimson Dynamo canon for the MCP.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:51 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

I disagree - expecting writers to adhere to the Marvel Universe timeline on things like this just places needless limitations on the stories they can tell, for the benefit of strict adherence to a continuity from decades ago. From the standpoint of the present day Marvel Universe, I don't regard any of the Cold War stuff as having happened as depicted, simply because it isn't possible. The Cold War is a rare example of a topical reference so intrinsic to the plot that it causes tremendous difficulties to remove it, essentially necessitating the rewrite of many stories, but so be it. 

Nobody still insists on the canonicity of "Reed and Ben fought in World War II", for much the same reasons. If FANTASTIC FOUR had run a series of back-up strips in the sixties, showing their wartime exploits, would we really still be arguing that they should remain canon. 

If the Marvel Universe is still going in thirty years time, will it be remotely tenable to argue that characters in their twenties and thirties lived through the Cold War as adults? Surely not - and I think we've already passed that point. 

You CAN'T write 30-year Russian characters in 2004 and claim that they fought American superheroes as adults in a Cold War which every schoolboy knows ended in 1984. I think this is one of those areas where continuity has to bend to accommodate reality.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:31 am    Post subject: Topical references
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
You CAN'T write 30-year Russian characters in 2004 and claim that they fought American superheroes as adults in a Cold War which every schoolboy knows ended in 1984.  
<<<


Actually, the schoolboy would flunk. Historians date the end of the Cold War between 1989 and 1991. 

But again, you're hung up on real world dates. "1984" has no real meaning in the MU. The Cold War did end in the MU, but it's actual date is not important. 

I think you CAN write "30-year Russian characters" in 2004 within the context of the MU Cold War. I think readers can understand that they're reading about a fictional universe modeled (on a different scale) on the real universe. If they can't, then they'd be really confused by reading a comic published in, say, 1963, and thinking, "Man, that Tony Stark must be ancient in his current adventures." 

I disagree with the whole concept of a "sliding timeline" that necessarily and forceably retcons events. It makes you wonder whether anything we're reading now will have any integrity in twenty years. 

Don't get me wrong. We disregard topical references all the time; Christmases are a good example. So if you want to think that the FF was testing a star drive rather than a rocket, be my guest. But what you're describing in Crimson Dynamo involves rewriting a character's established history and forcing a once-canon story out of the picture. 

The MCP is based on the integrity of Marvel continuity. I don't think retcons belong.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:49 am    Post subject: Age of the Marvel Universe and Tony Stark
By dimadick

Both of you present interesting arguments. But the real problem lies with a Marvel Universe which constantly tries to emulate a world familiar to its contemporary readers. 

Almost every President of the United States , leader of the Soviet Union and/or President of the Russia since 1961 has been featured in one story or another. A modern reader can probably have a crash course in 20th century history just by reading them in order and counting the "topical" references to political and military events, musical and fashion trends, films and television shows. They made the stories relevant to the time of publication and "dated" in retrospect. And will probably continue to do so. 

But the Marvel cast has hardly aged while four decades have passed for their readers. The recent Crimson Guardian series is an example of the problems arising from a need to keep the characters eternally young both in appearance (which is not that difficult in a world with a large population of gods, magic users, mutates and mutants) and chronological age. Most characters remain shy of passing the "significant" threshold between young adulthood (18 - 39) and "old age" (40 and above from an adolescent point-of-view). Thus the constant need for rewriting their history. The rewritten version will in turn appear dated and "in need" of a rewrite in about a decade or so. Personally it reminds me of the history revisions featured in George Orwell's "Animal Farm" and "1984". 

Benjamin Jacob Grimm and Reed Richards are fine examples of the problem. Grimm for one is indeed featured as a prisoner-of-war in "Captain Savage and his Leatherneck Raiders" #7 where the starring force of Marines has to save him. More importantly the activities of both Fantastic Four founders during World War II were first described in the second story of Fantastic Four I #11 (February, 1963). 

Quotting from a summary by Gregg Allinson:Ben as "...a marine fighter ace over Okinawa and Guadalcanal!" and Reed "...behind the lines, working with the underground for O.S.S." Reed confides that "...all the time I was at the front, I dreamed of the day I'd return home -- to the girl who was always in my thoughts! The girl I had left behind..." Sue asks Reed to "...skip over that part of it! It -- it's rather painful for me!" Reed wonders why Sue is so upset, because she's that girl -- "It's always been you, since we were kids together living next door to each other!" 

The references connected Benjamin to both the Battle of Guadalcanal (August 7, 1942 - February 9, 1943) where casualties included 6, 000 Americans and 24,000 Japanese, and the Battle of Okinawa (April 1- June 21, 1945) where casualties included 72,000 Americans and 100,000 Japanese. Reed was connected to the Office of Strategic Services (June, 1942 - October, 1945), considered the precursor to the Central Intelligence Agency (founded September 18, 1947). The intended result was probably to add years of experience to the characters. And they succeeded. 

However the references have long been rejected as "topical" . Benjamin and Reed would have to be born in or before 1925 to be able to enlist in the United States Army. Consequently they would be 38 years old or older at the time of publication. Today nobody would even suggest that they are 79 years old or older. 

Similarly the Crimson Guardian series has Tony Stark being 19 years old in 1984. This would place his birth in 1965 and would make him 39 years old as of 2004. How long would it take for another retcon to make him even younger? If Tales of Suspense #46 (October, 1963) is droped from chronology because Tony was too young to be Iron Man then what becomes of his debut (Tales of Suspense #40 - March, 1963)?

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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:18 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Well, Iron Man's origin was already overhauled during the Mike Grell run, which dropped the wartime references and replaced it with Reagan's war on drugs. 

Since no comic has discussed Iron Man's origin since then, it's unclear whether this is going to stick. But given that it was a revised origin unambiguously presented in the character's own comic, I can only assume that Marvel regard it as the present state of canon. 

Many of these backstory problems can be avoided simply by never talking about them again - there are plenty of stories that reference the Vietnam War as a contemporary event, for example, but since almost nobody ever feels the need to mention them, it isn't a problem. But Iron Man's origin is what you might call an "always speaking" piece of continuity - if it ceases to be viable for modern-day audiences, it simply must be revised into something that does work. It can't be ignored because he's always got to have an origin story. (Whereas the vast majority of his actual appearances can simply be de-emphasised and never mentioned again, or referred to in vague terms, without actually having to delete them.) 

The modern Marvel Universe is now over 40 years old and it seems to me inevitable that there will increasingly have to be revision of stories which (a) remain relevant to present day stories (primarily characters' origins); and (b) contain inextricable topical references (the Cold War as an ongoing event, the USA having the draft, etc) that can't simply be de-emphasised in subsequent references. 

Historical continuity is never going to be preserved in amber in order to maintain consistency at the price of damaging the present day Marvel Universe. It might arguably be nice if they did, but that's just not the way the Marvel Universe has ever worked. Topical references have always just been quietly de-emphasised or deleted altogether when they ceased to be convenient. In some cases, that inevitably means retcon.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:24 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

In simple terms, then, the question is this: 

In terms of *the MCP*, what do we do when presented with retcons of this nature? 

I'm not talking about retcons that simply change "X fought in Vietnam" to "X fought in Korea" -- I'm talking about retcons that *re-order the events discussed*. Like this one: drop all the historical trappings and we're left with the simple question: did the Dynamo defect to America BEFORE or AFTER Tony Stark became Iron Man? 

We basically have three options, in terms of a general MCP retcon policy: 

1) Ignore the retcon in favor of the original story. 
2) Jettison the original story in favor of the retcon. 
3) Try to merge the two -- perhaps aspects of BOTH are acurate. 

Paul B. is in favor of option #1, Paul O. likes option #2. Both are arguing based on the way they prefer to read and interpret the ongoing Marvel Universe. 

But the real question here is, how should *the MCP* absorb and display the retcon? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:58 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

This is probably best discussed in the light of a more clearcut case. Let's suppose, for example, that SPIDER-MAN: CHAPTER ONE had stuck. That was an open, unambiguous and unashamed decision to rewrite history. It was referenced once in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN (in a story that makes no sense without CHAPTER ONE's version of history) but has since been comprehensively discredited. But let's assume that, instead, CHAPTER ONE had been a tremendous hit and Marvel had continued to regularly reference it as the present-day origin of Spider-Man. 

By necessary implication, this would kick a lot of early Spider-Man stories out of continuity. To refuse to acknowledge such a retcon would bring the MCP out of line with the Marvel Universe as defined by Marvel (whose decision on such matters must surely be determinative). 

I can't see how the MCP could ignore intentional retcons recognised by Marvel and still claim to be cataloguing the Marvel Universe - it's their universe. 

On the other hand, to simply remove all of those old Silver Age stories would be a shame. 

My inclination would be for the MCP to list both versions of history with some sort of marking to display that these are competing versions - perhaps showing the character's timeline branching and then reuniting at the end. In the case of CRIMSON DYNAMO, where a story is basically deleted and replaced with a similar story at an earlier point in continuity, this might be better achieved by footnotes. 

Thus far, this problem hasn't arisen in a crippling form, because it's been mainly confined to minor characters such as the original Crimson Dynamo. But at some point this problem is going to crystallise when Marvel pull a wholesale revision of a major character's origin, and continue to reference it. There are two likely contenders for this - the Punisher and Iron Man. 

Punisher has an origin tied to Vietnam, but Marvel have dealt with him unusually - his age has simply been continually revised upwards in order to allow that origin to stick. 

Iron Man similarly has a wartime origin, and one that has already been expressly deleted and replaced during the Mike Grell run. Since it's not been mentioned since, that retcon hasn't brought matters to a head. But Iron Man's origin is something that's bound to come up from time to time. If Marvel continue to reference the Grell version, I can't see how we could possibly exclude it from the MCP simply on the basis that Marvel weren't entitled to retcon their own universe. 

I'd be more reluctant to start including one-off retcons which may be simple errors or may simply reflect the views of a particular writer (and might not be adopted by Marvel as a whole). But if and when Marvel unambiguously adopts a retcon as a the new orthodoxy, I think it should be honoured. I think it's bound to happen sooner rather than later, and in Iron Man's case, it probably already has.
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-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:37 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

Quote: 
>>>
Iron Man similarly has a wartime origin, and one that has already been expressly deleted and replaced during the Mike Grell run. 
<<<

Actually, so did John Byrne in Iron Man #267-268, back in 1991. 

In this retelling Stark is in south-east Asia to investigate why the local branch of Stark Internationa is being attacked by a local bandit lord. (Wong-Chu acting on the orders of the Mandarin)
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 10:13 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Peter Fabricius wrote: 
Quote: 
Iron Man similarly has a wartime origin, and one that has already been expressly deleted and replaced during the Mike Grell run. 

Actually, so did John Byrne in Iron Man #267-268, back in 1991. 

In this retelling Stark is in south-east Asia to investigate why the local branch of Stark Internationa is being attacked by a local bandit lord. (Wong-Chu acting on the orders of the Mandarin) 


I thought our policy was to ignore every single instance of John Bryne messing with continuity? I thought it was some sort of unstated rule.  

Back to the topic at hand, I've always felt we should try and combine both versions, if at all possible...FF #1 says he was building a rocket ship to beat the Commies to the moon...later version have Reed trying to break the speed of light. If it's a simple glossing over, then I feel we can keep both versions. A total change like what's listed above for the Crimson Dynamo, that may be a little different, and yes, would force us to break down and choose which version to keep as "real"....though if you could somehow merge both versions, that would be nice as well.... 

I think Paul O's reccomendation of listing "Footnotes" might be good...that way the MCP lists both versions....
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:04 am    
By Peter Fabricius

Quote: 
>>>
I thought our policy was to ignore every single instance of John Bryne messing with continuity? I thought it was some sort of unstated rule.   
<<<

But if we start with him, who's next? Tieri? Austen?  

Quote: 
>>>
I think Paul O's reccomendation of listing "Footnotes" might be good...that way the MCP lists both versions.... 
<<<

That does seem to be the only sensible solution, not that I am recommending common sense, mind you. 
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:08 am    Post subject: An Example
By dimadick

Listing both versions of events is probably the best way. DC chronologists are probably more familiar with this solution. The following JSA chronology for example lists all versions of the teams history and explains their differences. Perhaps it could be used as a model for the revision of Iron Man's chronology:http://www.mykey3000.com/cosmicteams/jsa/index.html

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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:11 pm    Post subject: Avengers Log supports the Byrne revision, so......
By Scathach80

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Peter Fabricius wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Iron Man similarly has a wartime origin, and one that has already been expressly deleted and replaced during the Mike Grell run. 
<<<

Actually, so did John Byrne in Iron Man #267-268, back in 1991. 

In this retelling Stark is in south-east Asia to investigate why the local branch of Stark Internationa is being attacked by a local bandit lord. (Wong-Chu acting on the orders of the Mandarin) 
<<<


I thought our policy was to ignore every single instance of John Bryne messing with continuity? I thought it was some sort of unstated rule.  
<<<



In 1993, Avengers Log, a Marvel published magazine giving short bios of each member of the Avengers came out. In the Iron Man entry, it cited Byrne's Iron Man#267-268 origin for Iron Man's origin.

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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Avengers Log supports the Byrne revision, so......
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Scathach80 wrote: 

>>>
In 1993, Avengers Log, a Marvel published magazine giving short bios of each member of the Avengers came out. In the Iron Man entry, it cited Byrne's Iron Man#267-268 origin for Iron Man's origin. 
<<<


Yeah, but Marvel also told us that Spiderman: Chapter 1 was the new "canon" of continuity...only to later retract that 'ruling'. 

Actually, I'm not as worried about minor rewrites for Iron Man's origin. Just like the Fantastic Four's origin, the motivations are altered, but the outcome is still the same. No matter what the reason, the FF went into space and were bombarded by Cosmic Radiation. No matter what the reason, Tony Stark was in Vietnam, (or Manchuria, or whatever) when he sustained shrapnel damage to his heart. 

These type of rewrites can easily be written off one over the other, (pick whichever version you like, the rewrite or the original): in the end, it doesn't alter the outcome. 

The same can't be said for this Crimon Dynamo story, which alters a character's origin severly.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:26 pm    Post subject: So, where are we?
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

So, the questions remain... 

Can any part of the flashback in Crimson Dynamo be salvaged for the purposes of the MCP? 

If not, can we still consider the main, "current" storyline in Crimson Dynamo canon?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:53 pm    Post subject: Re: So, where are we?
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
So, the questions remain... 


If not, can we still consider the main, "current" storyline in Crimson Dynamo canon? 
<<<


In my opinion, yes. Even if we rule the stuff in the flashback as not canon, the stuff in the 'present' is still tied into present storylines, (to current storylines in the Iron Man title notably) . And I'm sure we can find a place for it on the calender. 

Think of it like the Spiderman: Blue miniseries, (and the Hulk: Grey miniseries, which I'll have up for Chronology reviews shortly). The stuff in the flashbacks clashes with previously established material, (we ruled it was Peter's skewed memory of the events). So you still had Spiderman: Blue, (the present day portion) on the calender on Valentine's Day, as I recall.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Thread 45

Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:11 pm    Post subject: X-Babies
By Dhall

Pint-Sized X-Babies 1 

August 1998 

Main Characters: 

X-Babies:Cyke, Shower, Wolvie, Creepy Crawler, Colossusus, Boyo, Charlie X 
Locksteed 

Also X-Baby version of: Sunfire, Angel, Marvel Girl, Thunderbird, Iceman, Psylocke, Dazzler, Rogue, Cap. Britain, Shadowcat, Beast, Meggan, Phoenix III, Karma, Mirage, Havok, Magma, Warlock, Magik, Wolfsbane, Sunpot, Cannonball, and Widget. 


Villains: 

BOMB (Brotherhood of Mutant Bullies): Mysti Q, Slob, Phyro, Snaggletooth, Juggernut, Toadpole, Magneato 

Funhouse (The X-Baby version of Aracade) 

Mojo (Last App. X-Force #76, Next App. Next App. X-Babies Reborn) 

Major Domo (Last App. M/FAN2 5, Next App. X-Babies Reborn) 

Plot: The X-Babies appear on a Mojoworld Gameshow. It appears that Arcade has designed a murderwold on Mojoworld for mojos entertainment, but it turns out that Arcade is really Funhouse, the X-Baby version of Aracade created by Mojo tio amuse him. 

This is the issue that proves that Marvel will publish anything! 

We know this issue occurs soon after X-Force #76, as Mojo talks about that issue briefly.

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Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:11 pm    Post subject: X-Babies Reborn
By Dhall

X-Babies Reborn #1 

January 2000 

Beware the Babymaker! 


X-Babies: 
Shower, Wolvie, Sugah, Creepy Crawler, Psychilde, Shadowkitty, The Prof (aka Boy X) 

Guest Stars: 
Minor Domo 
Dazzler (Last App. LShot 2 1-BTS, Next App. UX 392) 

Villains: 
Mojo (Last App. X-Babies #1) 
Major Domo (Last App. X-Babies #1) 
Spiral (Last App. Excalibur #110) 

Others: 
The Textbook Sisters: Tercia, Segundra, Prima 

The Mitey Vengers: 
Iron Ace, Thunderson, Big Boy, Wisp, Captain Amerikid, Hawkey 

Baby versions of: Thanos, Kraven, Lizard, Kingpin, Doctor Doom, Green Goblin, Venom, Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister, The Brood, Bullseye, and Mephisto

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Thread 46

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:02 pm    Post subject: Will last messages of old boards be archived at some point?
By Scathach80

Will last messages of old boards be archived at some point? It is convenient to have them all in one load.

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Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Will last messages of old boards be archived at some poi
By ADMINISTRATOR

Yep. 


watching: married...with children 
 
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Thread 47

Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:30 am    Post subject: Contest of Champions II
By Starman

I noticed that Contest of Champions II (vol. 2) isn't in the key. Is this a mistake, or haven't this mini-series been analyzed for the MCP yet? If an analysis is needed I can make an attempt if you wish?
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

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Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 7:33 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

We would welcome an issue analysis. 


watching: law & order
