	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Cable&NM / Xtincton agenda
2. Dracula chronology mistake?
3. X-Men/Teen Titans
4. Kull bts in flashback in Tomb of Dracula#26?
5. GERALD O'HARA...OUTLAW...OX II
6. Shinobi Shaw - Fb in X-51 #6
7. UX 5/ ST1 120
8. What's coming from Marvel in June...
9. Fandral/Warriors Three Chronology Notes; 145 would have to f
10. PAVANE...PEARLA..."HANDSOME HARRY" PHILLIPS
11. Tomb of Dracula; Epic series is in-continuity
12. Reverend Craig
13. Death in DPOOL '98
14. Masque (and House) in XX #37-39
15. Mystique #1-12
16. Nightcrawler
17. Wolverine: The End #3
18. Four #2
19. X-Men 2000
20. Silver Surfer - The Enslavers
21. Mr. Campbell, your Enforcer idea..........
22. X-Man Additions
23. PIRANHA II...JOSEPHINE "JOEY" PULASKI...SCARLET BE
24. Mariko Yashida
25. Cyclops and Phoenix
26. Gambit
27. SIBERCAT...SAM SILVERCLOUD...JOE SMITH
28. Elektra #35
29. Starjammers
30. Wolverine corrections
31. Deadpool 27 and Wolverine '99
32. Ogun
33. Ages of Apocalypse
34. New Mutants (2) # 11 is out...
35. Identity changes in recent X-books (SPOILERS!)
36. Mister Sinister; X-Factor Annual#1.....
37. Olshevsky question
38. Spider man and Captain America chronology corrections
39. THING...THOG..."FLASH" THOMPSON
40. Planet X and New York City Question
41. Jean Grey and Prof. X in Classic X-Men #43
42. JLA/Avengers
43. Ethan Thurm
44. THREADGOLD...BEN URICH...VAMP
45. IRON MAN IV...ANDREW "JOCK" JACKSON...CURTISS JACK
46. Issue analysis: The assignments
47. 1602: My Diagnosis...
48. What's coming from Marvel in July...
49. Cagliostro note
50. UXM 300
51. WILDRUN ... CLUMSY FOULUP
52. Merlin, Merlyn; another piece to a.....

	Issue Analysis Forum
53. Incredible Hulk in 1985-86. (Issues 314-323)
54. X-51 #7
55. X-51 #8
56. X-51 #3
57. X-51 #0
58. X-51 # 1
59. X-51 #2
60. X-51 #4 and #5
61. Warlock3 6-9
62. Black Sun: X-Men
63. X-Man 69
64. Elektra #32-35
65. Wolverine: Doombringer
66. Crimson Dawn #1
67. Daredevil: Ninja
68. Deadline LS?
69. Hellstorm #20
70. Conan?
71. Untold Legend of Captain Marvel
72. Moon Knight v4 #1, v5 #1-4







Thread 1

Posted: 31 Mar 2004 06:59 pm    Post subject: Cable&NM / Xtincton agenda
By rhod

On a similar note to the recent post about Korvac saga TPB, what extra material is there in the 'Cable &the New Mutants' TPB, and X-tinction Agenda TPB? According to Cable's chronology, there is someting in the middle of NM 93, and again in UX 270, but I can't see it - what am I missing?

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Posted: 31 Mar 2004 10:08 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

In the case of the Cable & NMs TPB, it's a single page just before the end of NM #93. It's easy to spot, as it's drawn by a completely different person -- it's an extension of the very beginning of Cable and Wolverine's fight. 

In the X-Tinction Agenda TPB, there are actually THREE segments of new material -- also drawn by poor substitutes, and easily spotted. Two come during and just after the "Cable bursts into the Danger Room" scene at the start of UX #270, and the third occurs midway through NM #96 -- an added scene of Rictor, Boom-Boom and Jubilee preparing to attack Genoshan soldiers. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 31 Mar 2004 10:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Jeph, 

Would you please provide the sequences of page and panel ranges for UX 270 and NM 96 relative to the added material from the TPBs? That would be helpful to me for future calendar entries. Thanks. 

Paul
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Apr 2004 12:06 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

The added page in the "Cable and the New Mutants" TPB occurs between pp.19-20 of NM #93. In the TPB it's page 146. 

The added pages in the "X-Tinction Agenda" TPB are: 

- between pp.6-7 of UX #270 (TPB p.13) 
- between pp.9-10 of UX #270 (TPB p.17 panel 1) 
- between pp.4-5 of NM #96 (TPB p.107) 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Apr 2004 06:55 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, Jeph! Just what I needed.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 2

Posted: 31 Mar 2004 02:30 pm    Post subject: Dracula chronology mistake?
By Starman

I wonder over the placement of GSS-M 1 and A 118 in Dracula's chronology. In the Human Torch's and Spider-Man's chronology A 118 occurs before GSS-M 1 as you can see down here, but in Dracula's chronology GSS-M 1 is placed before A 118. Is this a mistake, or is there a good reason for this? If it's a mistake, where should they be placed. Could these two issues just change place with eachother without problem? 

DRACULA/VLAD TEPES 
--- 
TOD 10 
DL 1-FB 
GSS-M 1 
DL 1 
DL 4 
DL 5/4 
DL 2/5 
DL 3/5 
TOD 11 
--- 
TOD 15 
A 118 
TOD 16 
--- 

HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM 
--- 
FF 133 
LCHFH 9 
M/TU 10 
A 118 
FF 134 
--- 
FF 149 
GSS-M 1 
M/TU 23 
GSFF 2 
M/TU 26 
A 127 
FF 150 
--- 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER PARKER 
--- 
ASM 125 
A 118 
M/TU 14 
ASM 126 
--- 
ASM 133 
GSSH 1 
M/TU 22 
GSS-M 1 
M/TU 23 
GSS-M 1 
ASM 134 
---
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

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Posted: 31 Mar 2004 10:14 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I believe this is a case in which references in two different Marvel Indexes are at odds. 

The Official Marvel Index to the Amazing Spider-Man (OMITASM) #6 notes Dracula as appearing in G-SSM 1 between TOD 10 and 11. The Official Marvel Index to the Avengers (OMITTA), vol. 2 #2 notes Dracula as appearing in A 118 between TOD 15 and 16. Thus A 118 presumably occurs after G-SSM 1. 

However, OMITTA2 2 notes Spidey as appearing in A 118 between ASM 125 and M/TU 14. And OMITASM 6 notes Spidey as being in G-SSM 1 between M/TU 22 and ASM 134 (with M/TU 23 placed between pages of G-SSM 1). So A 118 presumably occurs before G-SSM 1. 

Both references can't be right. I place more stock in the before and after appearances listed for Spidey (a main character) than in those for Dracula. And I place more stock in the OMITTA2 reference (more recent) for Dracula than in the OMITASM reference. 

So I'd place G-SSM 1 at some point after A 118 in Dracula's chronology. Exactly where is something I don't know, as I don't own, and thus haven't placed, Dracula's comics on a calendar. G-SSM 1 occurs one year after A 118 on the MU calendar; both are set in May.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Apr 2004 03:07 am    Post subject: Publication dates ... again
By dimadick

Based on our Administrator's creed "If there's nothing in the stories that contradicts publication order, then we place the stories in publication order. If information in the story indicates that the stories don't occur in publication order, then of course, we'll let the stories themselves determine the order." 

Avengers #118 was published with a cover date of December, 1973. Giant-Size Spider-Man #1 leads directly to Marvel Team-Up #23 and they were both published with a cover date of July, 1974. 

---------- 

Spider-Man actualy made two other appearances with a cover date of December, 1973. The first of them was in Amazing Spider-Man #127 which featured the debut of Vulture III/Dr. Clifton Shallot. He was apprehended in Amazing Spider-Man #128 (January, 1974) and presumably has remained a jailbird for the last thirty years. His predecessor Adrian Toomes had not appeared since he defeated Spidey in Amazing Spider-Man #64 (September, 1968). He re-apppeared in Spectacular Spider-Man #4 (March, 1977) after nine years of unexplained absence. 

The second appearance was in Marvel Team-Up #16 where Spidey allies himself with Captain Mar-Vell against debuting villain Basilisk/Basil Elks. The Captain was the only casualty of the battle, captured by the Mole Man. This leads to a rescue attempt in Marvel Team-Up #17 (January, 1974). Spidey seeks help from the Fantastic Four but discovers them disbanded as of Fantastic Four #141(also December, 1973). The only one available to join him is brooding Reed Richards. 

Dracula also made another appearance in December, 1973. Tomb of Dracula I #15 where he reccolects several events of his past, contemplating writing his memoirs. 

---------- 

Spider-Man' s only other appearance in July, 1974 was the debut of Tarantula/Anton Miguel Rodriguez in Amazing Spider-Man #134. The Torch is actually co-starring with Iceman in Marvel-Team Up #23. Spidey only makes a cameo, as do Angel, Cyclops and Marvel Girl of the X-Men. 

Jonnathon's other appearance in July, 1974 was Fantastic Four #148. He is part of the "War on the Thirty-Sixth Floor" of the Baxter Building as were also Invisible Girl, Medusa, Mr. Fantastic, Sandman, Sub-Mariner, Thing, Thundra, Trapster, Triton and Wizard. 

Dracula's other appearance in July, 1974 was Tomb of Dracula #22. Dracula was in Kamenka, Moldavia, Russia fighting against rival vampire Gorna Storski. 

---------- 

Have you placed any of this books in your calendars, Paul?

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Posted: 01 Apr 2004 07:08 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

All these issues occur during Peter Parker's junior make-up year of college (Year Five on the Avengers Calendar): 

ASM 127-128 -- September 
M/TU 16-17 -- early November 
FF 148 -- April 
M/TU 23 -- late May 
ASM 134 -- early June
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Apr 2004 08:19 am    Post subject: Re: Publication dates ... again
By ADMINISTRATOR

dimadick wrote: 
>>>
Based on our Administrator's creed "If there's nothing in the stories that contradicts publication order, then we place the stories in publication order. If information in the story indicates that the stories don't occur in publication order, then of course, we'll let the stories themselves determine the order." 
<<<


Thanks for the review of Spider-Man's publication history around the time in question, Dimadick. I think I'd prefer the word "guideline" rather than "creed", though. 


watching: american morning

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Thread 3

Posted: 31 Mar 2004 04:38 pm    Post subject: X-Men/Teen Titans
By Ocean Doot

Perhaps I am just missing it, but I couldn't find the X-Men/Teen Titans one-shot anywhere in the key. 

I know it's probably considered out-of-continuity, but I'm just wondering where it fits in X-Men chronology. Or where it would fit if it "really happened." Does anyone know? 

Thanks, 
Jason

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Posted: 31 Mar 2004 06:09 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The X-Men/Teen Titans one-shot is officially MARVEL & DC PRESENT #1. It's not in continuity - it takes place in a world where Marvel and DC characters co-exist. Intercompany team-ups are only part of Marvel continuity if they involve characters travelling to the other universe for the purpose. 

According to OFFICIAL TEEN TITANS INDEX #3, the story appears to take the X-Men as they stood at a point between UNCANNY X-MEN #153-154, and the Teen Titans as they stood between pages 7 and 8 of NEW TEEN TITANS #26. But it's academic because it's not the same characters, just counterparts from a shared world.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 Apr 2004 09:13 am    Post subject: Cool, thanks.
By Ocean Doot

Thanks, Paul. I figured it wasn't canonical, but I'm about to embark on a massive Chris Claremont X-Men re-read, and I wanted to include the Teen Titans one-shot into the mix. It's been a while since I read it, so I couldn't remember exactly where it fit. Now I know! 

Thanks again. 
Jason 

P.S. I really enjoyed this week's Article 10.

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Thread 4

Posted: 01 Apr 2004 04:34 pm    Post subject: Kull bts in flashback in Tomb of Dracula#26?
By Enda80

Apparently, in Tomb of Dracula#26, Kull was behind the scenes in a flashback. I'll see if I can find the issue to confirm this. If so, it might be possible to include this in the remote future for a Kull chronology. 


CHIMERA - magic power item in three pieces (serpents tail, lions head, goats body), created ?30000? (20000 more likely) years ago in Atlantis by C'Thunda, used against Kull, involved in the times of the Black Plague, sought in recent times by Dracula + Dr. Sun + David Eschol, destroyed by Sheila Wittier to prevent Dracula or Dr. Sun from using it 
*D*--Tomb of Dracula I#26 (26(fb1-3), 26, 27, 28d) 

CTHUNDA - Atlantean wizard @ 30,000? years ago, created Chimera, intended to use it to summon Elder Gods, slain before he could evoke its power. 
White hair + beard 
*D*--[Daredevil I#128], Tomb of Dracula I#26 (26(fb,dies)

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Thread 5

Posted: 01 Apr 2004 11:05 pm    Post subject: GERALD O'HARA...OUTLAW...OX II
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

new entries marked ** 


O'HARA, GERALD 

**SSD 1-FB-FB 18p1 
**SSD 1-FB-FB 19p6 
**SSD 1-FB 5p1 
**SSD 4 PRESUMED by Shanna  Hes escaping in that truck  with five men captive! (26p3 ). That fifth man must be my father! (26p4). Shield had earlier informed her that her father was captive of the Mandrill. The men in the truck are shadow figures, impossible to distinguish features. 
RH 9/2 I do not have RH 9 so I do not know where the above fit as far as RH 9 is concerned. Same goes for the Shanna entry following... 

also  
SHANNA/SHANNA O'HARA PLUNDER 
**SSD 1-FB-FB 18p1 
**SSD 1-FB-FB 19p6 
**SSD 1-FB 5p1 
**SSD 1-FB (12p2  26) 
RH 9/2-FB 
SSD 1 


OUTLAW/NIGEL HIGGINS 

PUN2 64 
**PUN2 65 (15p2-15p3) Okay, I grant the skin coloration is more than a little off, but who else would be walking around with his left arm in a sling chatting with Micro? When we last saw Outlaw (PUN2 64 17p4) his arm was hurt Frank Hows the shoulder? (Hes clutching his left shoulder). Outlaw  Kevlar helps. I can wait for Micro. 
PUN2 66 


OX II/DR. KARL STRAGG 

DD 15 
**DD 86 It is Karl Straggs body the OX is in at the beginning of the story. And it seems he reverts back to Stragg at the end (19p7) 


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#168

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Thread 6

Posted: 01 Apr 2004 11:20 pm    Post subject: Shinobi Shaw - Fb in X-51 #6
By Dhall

Shinobi's fb in X-51 #6 was left out of the MCP. 
It's a one panel fb as part of Otomo's origin. 
"Freedom came when a man named Shinobi Shaw was able to synthesize a form of the drug." 

This Fb could come anytime after Shinobi takes over the Hellfire Club, but since we never see him use Otomo as an assassin, I am inclined towards a late placement for this flashback. Perhaps right after SMTU 1. 

SHAW, SHINOBI 
XF 67 
UX 281 
UX 282 
UX 283 
NW 43 
NW 44-BTS 
NW 45 
X@ 3 
S-M 43 
NT2 20 
GENX 61-FB 
GENX '95 
SMTU 1 
*X-51 #6-FB 
XCAL 96 
XFOR 62

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Posted: 03 Apr 2004 06:40 pm    
By Dhall

Also Captain America appears BTS in X-51 #6, as the Avengers spokseperson who would NOT comment on the battle in the previous issue.

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Thread 7

Posted: 04 Apr 2004 10:56 am    Post subject: UX 5/ ST1 120
By Jason Doty

Between what pages of Uncanny X-Men no.5 does Strange Tales no. 120 occur? Any help would be appreiciated. Thanks

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Posted: 04 Apr 2004 11:24 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

According to the Olshevsky index, it's in a gap of several weeks between page 9, panels 1 and 2.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 8

Posted: 20 Mar 2004 02:49 pm    Post subject: What's coming from Marvel in June...
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Here's the latest previews from Marvel, for the month of June, (so we can be prepared chronology-wise for what's to come): 

http://comics.toonzone.net/solicitations/2004-06/marvel.php 

Let me say, it appears that Marvel is in a publication frenzy. it's getting hard to keep track off all the new publications that we'll need to keep track of for chronology purposes. 

There's a new Amazing Fantasy title, (set in the current chronology, or so it says). 

There's a Venom Vs. Carnage miniseries.... 

There's a miniseries called "Powerless"...(this isn't meant to be canon, is it?) 

There's a Spiderman/Dr. Octopus: Year One miniseries... 

There's a new Mary Jane ongoing series... 

An Identity Disk miniseries, (featuring the villians: Sabretooth, Juggernaut, Bullseye, Deadpool, Sandman, and the Vulture)... 

There's a new "Invaders" title coming out, (Invaders #0 comes out in June). 

A new title called "Witches"...can someone please tell me if this is a miniseries or a new ongoing series, or just what the heck this title is?!?! Is it Canon? 


Thor appears to have a new writer/artist team, (which means Dan Jurgens lengthy "Asgard on Earth" plot is finally coming to a conclusion).... 

Also, from online news articles that I've heard, the Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, and Avengers titles are going to undergo major revisions here in the next few months, so much like the X universe had an "Xmen Reloaded" event, (which'll be the focal point for resolving all of these last couple years of Xmen plots) look for the same for the Avengers side of the universe...we may need to construct an "Avengers calender" like Jeph and Paul B. have an Xmen calender, (and one of these days, we'll have a calender for ALL the Marvel universe...the last year or so has been harsh, chronology-wise, hasn't it?)
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 20 Mar 2004 07:10 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

AMAZING FANTASY is in canon. It appears to be basically a present-day Spider-Girl, although Marvel are refusing to confirm the title character's name. 

POWERLESS is a What If? story about a world where none of the Marvel heroes' origin stories happened. The big idea is that they were nice people anyway, as far as I can see. 

Reading between the lines, SPIDER-MAN/DR OCTOPUS: YEAR ONE seems to be the origin of Dr Octopus. There's actually a surprising number of gaps to fill in - as far as I can tell, his parents have only ever appeared in two flashbacks in recent issues of SPECTACULAR, for example. So this might not be quite as superfluous as it seems. 

MARY JANE is not in continuity. Writer Sean McKeever has been bending over backwards to stress this point in interviews. He's also helpfully confirmed that none of the titles created for the Marvel Age imprint are meant to be in continuity. Nor do they share a universe. They're just off on their own somewhere. (RUNAWAYS and SPIDER-GIRL are the exceptions because they weren't originally created for Marvel Age.) 

WITCHES is a project which has been in development hell for two and a half years. Given that the artist is already assigned to another project, I strongly suspect that this is a completed story arc which is being shoved out there to recoup costs. Anyway, yes, the book was intended to be canon. But don't be surprised if it seems to be lagging a bit behind the times. 

I note with interest that several titles are promising to feature lead-ins to AVENGERS #500 - which means plot threads are going to cross over between titles, something we haven't seen in a very long while. Oddly enough, one of the Avengers lead-in books is SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN - which lends some support to the rumours that AVENGERS is going to be relaunched as a big-guns JLA-style book.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 21 Mar 2004 02:10 am    
By Peter Fabricius

Quote: 
>>>
Reading between the lines, SPIDER-MAN/DR OCTOPUS: YEAR ONE seems to be the origin of Dr Octopus. There's actually a surprising number of gaps to fill in - as far as I can tell, his parents have only ever appeared in two flashbacks in recent issues of SPECTACULAR, for example. So this might not be quite as superfluous as it seems.  
<<<

There is some background in Spider-Man Unlimited #3 from 1993, it was written by Tom DeFalco and had art by Ron Lim. About 5 pages in all 
I think this was where we first saw his parents.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: 21 Mar 2004 08:05 am    Post subject: Witches
By dimadick

All three protagonists of the Witches series have not appeared in years. So placing this series in their own chronologies should not be much of a problem. 

Jennifer Kale's last appearance in X-Force #100 was published with a cover date of March, 2000. Topaz's last appearance in Dr. Strange IV #4 was published with a cover date of May, 1999. Satana Hellstrom's last appearance in Hellstorm #21 was published with a cover date of December, 1994. 

The question would probably be where to place the series within Dr. Strange's recent string of guest appearances. I'm curious of how "young" the three witches are supposed to be. Satana was reportedly 24 years old when she first died in Marvel Team-Up I #81 (May, 1979).

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Posted: 23 Mar 2004 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Witches
By Ant-Man

dimadick wrote: 
>>>
All three protagonists of the Witches series have not appeared in years. So placing this series in their own chronologies should not be much of a problem. 
<<<


I seem to recall that this was originally solicited as a non-canon series, kind of like the Supernaturals series from a few years ago...

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Posted: 04 Apr 2004 10:59 am    
By SeanCurtin

Peter Fabricius wrote: 
>>>
There is some background in Spider-Man Unlimited #3 from 1993, it was written by Tom DeFalco and had art by Ron Lim. About 5 pages in all 
I think this was where we first saw his parents. 
<<<


There's also some flashbacks in SMU #18, which tied into his resurrection. IIRC, #18 was also written by DeFalco, and was intended to jibe with #3.

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Posted: 04 Apr 2004 01:56 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

Quote: 
>>>
There's also some flashbacks in SMU #18, which tied into his resurrection. IIRC, #18 was also written by DeFalco, and was intended to jibe with #3. 
<<<

You recall correctly, it is by DeFalco, and it does jibe well with #3.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Thread 9

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:35 pm    Post subject: Fandral/Warriors Three Chronology Notes; 145 would have to f
By Scathach80

A while ago, Arthur Stein suggested the following additions to Fandral's chronology. 

FANDRAL [ASGARDIAN] 

T 145/2 
**T 404/2 
**T 405/2 
**T 406/2 
**T@ 14/3 
**T 401 
T 323 
**T 410/2 
**T 416/2 
M/:LG 5 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=28 features a long-winded post in which suggest that the Thor I#404-406 story had to have happened no later 8,000 BCE. 

However, the Thor I#137-145 storyline with the Mogul of the Mystic Mountain must take place much later, perhaps no earlier than 600 CE, since the sorcerer from that story, Mogul of the Mystic Mountain, was seen again in a flashback story in Thor I#474. In that story, Mogul stated that his magic came from ancient Bagdhad. Bagdhad did not exist during the Hyborian Age (to my knowledge). Also, Mogul and his entourage were obviously Islamic influenced, and there were no Muslims until after 600 CE.

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Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:15 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Try not to go overboard on your subject lines. 

"Fandral/Warriors Three" would do nicely on this one. 



watching: according to jim

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Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:38 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Try not to go overboard on your subject lines. 

"Fandral/Warriors Three" would do nicely on this one. 
<<<

 


Add on top of that that you've already started up this topic in other threads, Scathach. There's the post you linked to above, and this other one here: 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=49 

All of which deal with finding ways to make Thor's chronology click in sync with Conan chronology, (or rather, the timeline of the Earth due to the inclusion of the Hyborian Age in Marvel's past, *back when Marvel owned the rights to Conan at any rate*) 

If you're going to continue elements of the discussion started in previous threads, it would be best to post in those already existing threads, instead of starting up a whole new thread. 

Now I for one do know a great deal about the Conan comics, but I've stayed out of these threads till now because I know squat about Thor's chronology, (I didn't start collecting Thor whole-heartedly till 1998). 
So let me attempt to give my thoughts on the subject you've posed here: 

Now I don't have the Thor issues in question, but you're basically saying this Mogul storyline must have happened after the rise of Islam. Two possible theories: 

1. In Robert E. Howard's mind, (he's Conan's creator) civilization works in cycles, and thus, his Hyborian Age mirrors many aspects of our own Medieval ages. If you've looked at a Hyborian Age map, the country of Turan is roughly over where Modern Day Baghdad is. Turan is a Persian/Arabic Empire back in Conan's day. So maybe in saying his magic came from Ancient Baghdad, he meant it came from the version of Baghdad that existed in Ancient Hyboria, (and if this quote given by him came after the Hyborian age ended, maybe he didn't know the name for the country, so just referred to it as "Baghdad"). 

And as for them being Islamic influenced, as far as look goes, the Turanians basically looked like Arabians in culture...and if you mean in religious terms, well, Turan's god was the "Tarim" which has some similarities to the more fundamentalist version Islam, (in the sense that all other Gods were banned in Turan, I believe). 

2. Another theory, (which goes against the one I posted above): As Marvel no longer has the rights to Conan, it has now become much like the Transformers comics, or the Godzilla comics. They may have happened, but maybe not in the way presented exactly. For instance, Dr. Demonicus got his start in the Godzilla comics. But later moved on to be a villian in regular Marvel books...So does that mean his origin isn't canon? No, it means that the details are distorted, and there was a giant lizard, but it wasn't Godzilla...what I'm saying is, as Conan is now no longer part of Marvel history, (though something happened back at the Hyborian Age time period, as shown by the crossover events from Thor and certain issues of Avengers), the other title take's precidence in determining chronology. Thor's chronology dictates what's canon, as HIS TITLE is still part of the Marvel Universe... 

But that's open to interpretation...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:39 pm    Post subject: Mogul and the Hyborians
By dimadick

Mogul of the Mystic Mountain does present a few historical problems the way he was depicted: 

For one his Mystic mountain has also been called Zanadu, Zandu and Xanadu. Those are all variations of Xanadu or Shangdu. This was a historical city of Mongolia which served as summer capital for Kublai Khan(1215-1294), Emperor of the Mongols (1260-1294), Emperor of China(1279-1294). 

Then Mogul himself claims to have originated from "ancient" Baghdad. Well Baghdad is not particularly ancient but is far older than Xanadu. Baghdad was established in 762 by Al-Mansur to replace Damascus as the Capital of the Abbasid Caliphs. Previous major cities in her area only include Babylon (70 miles to the South) and Ctesiphon (20 miles Southeast). 

Then is the matter of Mogul's clothing. The guy walks around with a crescent moon on his helmet. Well this is not excactly a symbol of Islam. It is the symbol of the Ottoman Empire and its Muslim successor states. The Sultanate was only established in 1299 , became an Empire in 1453 and was disintegrated ino successor states during the 19th and early 20th century. By 1924 even the Caliphate was abolished. 

By the way the Muslims themselves date their beginning from the Hegira . This is when Muhammad and his followers had to flee Mecca for Medina in 622. 

Does our "ancient" Mogul start to seem as one big anachronism or is it just my impression? 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Now coming to those Hyborian ancestors. 

1.Robert E. Howard indeed based many of the cultures he featured in his fictional works in later established civilisation. Case in point "Turan" which is both a historical and heographical term. 

The following is from Wikipedia, a free content encyclopedia: 

"In Geography, Turan refers to the bulk of the Eurasian landmass including the Russian steppes, Central Asian Turkestan, Mongolia, the Caucasus and other regions where historical Hunnish, Avar, Turkic and Mongol powers held sway, such as Iran and Anatolia." 

"This name was established in the Persian-Turkish literary tradition by Shahnameh, designating the Turkic hordes north of Iran, used in a sense contradictive from the latter. However, the constructed historical name was revived by European (German, Hungarian and Slovak) ethnologists, linguists and Romantics to designate the vast Eurasian area belonging to populations speaking Uralic or Altaic languages. This area is often broadened into including Korea and Japan, whose languages are thought to share fundamental common featuers with Ural-Altaic languages" 

"An idyllic image of the historical nomad Eurasian hordes and Shamanist/Tengri worship have been, and still are, exploited by ultra-right elements from Hungary, Turkey to Japan to galvanize a "Pan-Turanic" sentiment, to a rather mediocre effect. Sometimes Pan-Turanism is used synonymously with the more popular Pan-Turkist movements, which exemplify in many ways, the symbolisms and dynamics of the Pan-Turanist culture." 

2.Then Turan then has very little to do with the Arabs but much to do with the Turks. Now Howard in his essay of the Hyborian age called Turan an "ancient Hyrkanian Kingdom" destroyed by the Cimmerians. The Surviving Hyrcanians " rode back onto the mysterious East. They would return thousands of years later, as Mongols, Huns, Tartars and Turks. " Seems familiar, doesn't it? 

3. The people of Shem are considered the Hyborian ancestors of the Arabs. They were under the influence of Stygia and Koth. Not of Turan. 

4.Forbiding the worhip of other deities is standard monotheistic and not just Islamic policie. The Turanians however often mention Ishtar in the Conan stories. 

5.Conan does not necessarily fall to the same category as Transformers or Godzilla. Both of the later occured in the Modern age of Marvel and the later authors had to somehow explain their interraction with the standard Marvel characters. However Conan and the Hyborians are parts of a long dead and mostly forgotten past for the inhabitants of the Marvel Universe. Not much different than the Invaders or the Liberty Legion. They still happened but nobody has reason to mention them. 

----------------------------------------------------------- 

Sorry for the long message. I hope that a few historic references can shed some light on what apparently serves as the prehistory of the Marvel Universe.

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Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:23 pm 
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
2. Another theory, (which goes against the one I posted above): As Marvel no longer has the rights to Conan, it has now become much like the Transformers comics, or the Godzilla comics. They may have happened, but maybe not in the way presented exactly. For instance, Dr. Demonicus got his start in the Godzilla comics. But later moved on to be a villian in regular Marvel books...So does that mean his origin isn't canon? No, it means that the details are distorted, and there was a giant lizard, but it wasn't Godzilla... 
<<<


Transformers is out of continuity altogether because Marvel say so (and said so when it was still being published), so it's not a very good example. 

As for Godzilla and other licensed titles such as Micronauts and Rom, to which Marvel no longer own the rights, the general position seems to be that these stories still happened and still form part of continuity in their entirety. However, for legal reasons, aspects of them can never actually be mentioned outright - they can say that the Dire Wraiths fought an alien hero, for example, but they can't come out and say that it was Rom. 

It's still canon - it's just a part of canon that has to be referred to obliquely in modern comics because Marvel no longer own the rights to the material.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:23 pm    Post subject: I wonder why Arthur Stein placed it the way he did
By Scathach80

I was disagreeing with Arthur Stein's placement of the story. A while ago, he suggested that it be added in this way 

"FANDRAL [ASGARDIAN] 

T 145/2 
**T 404/2 
**T 405/2 
**T 406/2 
**T@ 14/3 
**T 401 
T 323 
**T 410/2 
**T 416/2 
M/:LG 5 " 


However, Mr. Stein did not give any particular reasoning as to why he placed it the way I did. I detected no bit of dialogue in the Thor I#404-406 story to indicate that it took place after the Mogul of the Mystic Mountain adventure. I do not have those Thor issues with Mogul. 

As I argued, Thor I#404-406 back-ups would have to fall much earlier in Fandral's chronology, for it showed the Asgardians helping to restore Earth after some great Cataclysm, and the only notable Cataclysms in history happened at 18,000 BCE and 9,500 to 8,000 BCE.

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Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:30 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

dimadick wrote: 

>>>
5.Conan does not necessarily fall to the same category as Transformers or Godzilla. Both of the later occured in the Modern age of Marvel and the later authors had to somehow explain their interraction with the standard Marvel characters. However Conan and the Hyborians are parts of a long dead and mostly forgotten past for the inhabitants of the Marvel Universe. Not much different than the Invaders or the Liberty Legion. They still happened but nobody has reason to mention them. 
<<<
 


Good points.  I was merely wishing to suggest that if you had to break down and choose over which events to take as "canon" events in Thor would overrule events in Conan....but in retrospect, that doesn't really help, as I believe the events in question all happened in Thor...they're just conflicting in nature. 

Paul O'Brien wrote: 

>>>
Transformers is out of continuity altogether because Marvel say so (and said so when it was still being published), so it's not a very good example. 

As for Godzilla and other licensed titles such as Micronauts and Rom, to which Marvel no longer own the rights, the general position seems to be that these stories still happened and still form part of continuity in their entirety. However, for legal reasons, aspects of them can never actually be mentioned outright - they can say that the Dire Wraiths fought an alien hero, for example, but they can't come out and say that it was Rom. 

It's still canon - it's just a part of canon that has to be referred to obliquely in modern comics because Marvel no longer own the rights to the material.
<<< 


Also good points.  Though Marvel hasn't come right out and said as such, they still no longer have the rights...which means from here on out, anytime they wish to refer to events that happened in "the Hyborian Age" they'll have to just skirt around actually naming characters and events...so maybe "not canon" isn't the right word. But I can't think of a better term to describe the current state of affairs...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:15 pm    Post subject: Re: I wonder why Arthur Stein placed it the way he did
By ADMINISTRATOR

Scathach80 wrote: 
>>>
the only notable Cataclysms in history happened at 18,000 BCE and 9,500 to 8,000 BCE. 
<<<


Don't confuse our history with the Marvel Universe. I suspect there have been many more cataclysms than two in the Marvel Universe. 


watching: nbc 13 news

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Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:20 am    Post subject: Re: I wonder why Arthur Stein placed it the way he did
By Scathach80

I was not, repeat, not confusing our history with that of the Marvel Universe. I was referring to the Great Cataclysm and the cataclysm that ended the Hyborian Age, which are both solidly part of Marvel Universe history by way of the adaptation of Robert E. Howard's esssay the Hyborian Age in the early issues of Savage Sword of Conan. 

(In fact, in the history of the real world, the Great Cataclysm and the Hyborian Age would have no place. I am pretty sure that there are no college history books or anthropology books that include them....)

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Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:59 am    Post subject: Thor 404/2 - 406/2
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

I didn't have a whole lot of reason for the placement of T 404/2 after T 145/2. Simply there was NO reference to Midgard through the early Tales of Asgard so I have slotted these as WAY back in Asgardian history, i.e. pre Earth. ( I obviously missed the 'ancient Baghdad' reference...where is it ?) 

I disregraded the earth history Mogul as being this Mogul as this Mogul had battled and defeated Hogun's tribe.

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Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:44 am    Post subject: Re: I wonder why Arthur Stein placed it the way he did
By ADMINISTRATOR

Scathach80 wrote: 
>>>
I was not, repeat, not confusing our history with that of the Marvel Universe. I was referring to the Great Cataclysm and the cataclysm that ended the Hyborian Age, which are both solidly part of Marvel Universe history by way of the adaptation of Robert E. Howard's esssay the Hyborian Age in the early issues of Savage Sword of Conan. 
<<<



Then why do you seem to be ignoring the possibility that the Thor stories are referring to a third cataclysm? 


watching: american morning

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Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:49 pm    Post subject: Re: I wonder why Arthur Stein placed it the way he did
By Scathach80

My reasons for excluding a Third Cataclysm....well, I tried to stick to Occam's Razor. Two major Cataclysms have been established for the Marvel Universe. The first one, as noted, was at 20,000 BCE. The second one was at around 9,000 to 8,000 BCE. 

My main point in mentioning this was to object to Mr. Stein's placement of the Thor I#145 story as before the Thor I#404-406 story. For that to work, we would have to have the Cataclysm as coming after the foundation of the city of Baghad (since Mogul refers to himself as coming from Baghdad in Thor I#474). That would make the Cataclysm as happening after about 900 CE.......and a Cataclysm in 900 CE is something people would have noticed. 

So , I suggested that story should precede the Thor I#145 story, and probably should come very early in Thor, Fandral, etc.'s chronology, since as noted, to fit with previous cataclysms, it could have come no later than 8,000 BCE 


http://users.ev1.net/~peanut/bio-hogun.html 
Incidentally, since the Thor I#404-406 story was cited in The Master Edition Entries for Fandral, Hogun, Volstagg, etc. it is canonical.

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Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Thor 404/2 - 406/2
By Scathach80

Arthur wrote: 
>>>
I didn't have a whole lot of reason for the placement of T 404/2 after T 145/2. Simply there was NO reference to Midgard through the early Tales of Asgard so I have slotted these as WAY back in Asgardian history, i.e. pre Earth. ( I obviously missed the 'ancient Baghdad' reference...where is it ?) 

I disregraded the earth history Mogul as being this Mogul as this Mogul had battled and defeated Hogun's tribe. 
<<<


Thor I#474 has Mogul stating that he came from Baghad.

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Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:16 pm    Post subject: Re: I wonder why Arthur Stein placed it the way he did
By ADMINISTRATOR

Scathach80 wrote: 
>>>
My reasons for excluding a Third Cataclysm....well, I tried to stick to Occam's Razor. Two major Cataclysms have been established for the Marvel Universe. The first one, as noted, was at 20,000 BCE. The second one was at around 9,000 to 8,000 BCE.  
<<<


Fair enough. Lord knows, I've called on Occam too many times to count. If your proposal "fits", it sounds like Occam's Razor can be called upon to justify the placement. However, if there are problems, I think we have to consider the possibility that the Thor story is telling us about a third cataclysm. 


watching: simpsons

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Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:48 pm    Post subject: Re: I wonder why Arthur Stein placed it the way he did
By Scathach80

I think it could work for either the Cataclysm that ended the Thurian Age (at 18,000 BCE) or the Cataclysm that ended the Hyborian Age (at 8,000 BCE). 

To anticipate a counterargument, some people may bring the whole "repeating Ragnarok" idea from Thor I#293-294. For those of you who do not remember, those issues of Thor had Thor sit through a flashback narrated by Odin's severed eye in which said severed orb stated that a previous version of the Asgardian pantheon existed 2,000 years ago, one that more closely resembled the authentic Norse myths. It even had a red-haired Thor, just an in the authentic myths. The Jack Kirby-designed pantheon of JIM#83-on supposedly came into existance when this previous pantheon died in a cycle of Ragnarok that occured circa the birth of Jesus, son of Mary (around 4 BCE). 

Thor I#301 had Gaea make comments which seemed to support the idea of repeating Ragnarok, and it was generlly treated as canonical up till Thor I#355, when Tiwaz, Thor's great-grandfather appeared. After that, the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe entries for Thor and Odin treat it as a possibly falsified flashback. 

I thought the way the Handbook treated it was strange, since I thought that would have to mean that Gaea lied in Thor I#301! However, her comments only confirm the "fact" of a repeating Ragnarok, so perhaps the eye dissembled when it stated that this early Ragnarok took place simultaneously with the birth of Jesus, son of Mary. Possibly this earlier Ragnarok took place at some earlier point in time. 

I mention this because the Thor I#404-406 story shows Thor in his JIM#83 appearance.....and having a Cataclysm after 1 CE would not fit Occam's Razor very well. So, I propose that even if repeating Ragnarok is true, that the eye did not tell Thor the whole truth, so that the earlier Ragnarok took place actually centuries if not millennia before the birth of Jesus, son of Mary. 

Nailing down history for the Asgardians is slippery. However, we know that they were not worshipped on Earth during the Thurian Era/time of King Kull (because Varnae, the first vampire, was shown to be immune to Thor in Marvel Comics Presents#63, and Varnae is immune to those gods not worshipped when he was a human being). 

The Asgadians are invoked during the Hyborian Age in various issues of Conan the Savage, Conan of the Isles, and elsewhere, so we can go back that far with them.

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Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:32 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Nailing down history for the Asgardians is slippery ... The Asgadians are invoked during the Hyborian Age in various issues of Conan the Savage, Conan of the Isles, and elsewhere, so we can go back that far with them. 
<<<


Wait, though ... if the repeating-Ragnarok story IS true, how do you know that the Asgardians mentioned in the Conan comics aren't the *previous* versions? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 5:21 am    Post subject: An interesting point, but for the purposes of placing this s
By Scathach80

Good point. Still, whether they are or not the previous/red-haired Thor versions would not materially affect the placement of this story. It would still have to precede all other stories that involve the *modern*/blond Thor Asgardians and the Earth. 

I am leaning towards the 18,000 BCE Great Cataclysm for this Thor I#404-406 story, so I guess the *previous* version of the Asgardians would have to go before then. This could mean that the *previous* version of the Asgardians never managed to have worshippers on Earth. (I don't have a lot of Kull comics, but from the ones that I have read, I cannot recall any refernces to Thor, etc.)

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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:37 am    Post subject: An external link
By dimadick

The Appendix to the Marvel Handbook has now added a profile of Zanadu. A good introduction for those unfamiliar with the stories themselves:http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/zanadumogul.htm

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Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:54 pm    Post subject: Third Cataclysm....but just after 400,000 BCE
By Enda80

"Then why do you seem to be ignoring the possibility that the Thor stories are referring to a third cataclysm?" 

It turns out that a third notable cataclysm may have happened in Marvel Earth history....but it would have happened around 400,000 BCE. 

In the 1970's, Marvel adapted Lin Carter's Thongor Lemuria series. That took place in 500,000 BCE. In his indexes for Conan and The Sub-Mariner, George Olshevsky made comments indicating that the Thongor series took place in the Marvel Universe on Earth-616. 

Apparently, some great cataclysm took place that wiped out this stage of human civilization. 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/thongorlemuria.htm 

http://www.dracandros.com/Jebgarg/Nidoking/moa/moa-l.htm

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Thread 10

Posted: 06 Apr 2004 06:40 am    Post subject: PAVANE...PEARLA..."HANDSOME HARRY" PHILLIPS
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

new entries marked ** 


PAVANE 

MOKF 31 
**MOKF 63 (14p7  15p3, 31p4 - 31p5) 
MOKF 65 
**MOKF 66 


PEARLA 

**FF 16-FB (14p3,14p5) 
**FF 16 
FF@ 17-FB (***should read FF 17-FB (3p7) ) 
M/TIO 87 
FF 284 


PHILLIPS, "HANDSOME HARRY" 

FF 23 
ST 122 
**ST 129 
M/TIO 60 

additionally re ST 129. 

. . .BROGIN, BULL 
. . .FF 23 
. . .ST 122 
. . .**ST 129 
. . .M/TIO 60 

. . .DAKOR, YOGI 
. . .FF 23 
. . .ST 122 
. . .**ST 129 
. . .M/TIO 60 


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#169

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Thread 11

Posted: 06 Apr 2004 01:21 pm    Post subject: Tomb of Dracula; Epic series is in-continuity
By Enda80

The Epic Tomb of Dracula series is actually canonical, per the Marvel Knights Encyclopedia. Admittedly, many people think this story ignored the Montesi Formula and Drac's post TOD I#70 appearnaces, but there was an explanation; a demon recreated Dracula's body at his castle.

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Posted: 06 Apr 2004 03:26 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Also, Frank Drake's wife Marlene first appeared in this series.

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Thread 12

Posted: 06 Apr 2004 08:21 pm    Post subject: Reverend Craig
By captamr
The good reverend also makes an appearance in NM 44 when the mutants return to Muir Isle for a visit. 

CRAIG, REV. 

NM 26 
**NM 44 
XCAL 93
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 13

Posted: 07 Apr 2004 12:04 pm    Post subject: Death in DPOOL '98
By SeanCurtin

Death's appearance in DPOOL '98-FB should be moved from the beginnng of her chronology to between KS and CX 43/2.

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Thread 14

Posted: 06 Apr 2004 12:45 pm    Post subject: Masque (and House) in XX #37-39
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

X-Treme X-Men #38-39 confused readers in many ways when they brought back Masque, the misshapen leader of the Morlocks. 

For one, Masque was killed by Shatterstar in X-Force #9-10. 

Two, Masque -- who once could alter anyone's flesh EXCEPT his own hideous features -- now looked exactly like Marilyn Monroe. 

Three, Masque was referred to as "she" through the entire story. 

New character? Oh no, since this Masque harbored the same old hatreds for Storm and Callisto. It's clearly meant to be the same person. 

When fans asked about these discrepancies on the ComiX-Fan forums, Chris Claremont replied that Masque was, in fact, wearing a MASK -- and that Masque had morphed someone else into a doppelganger back in X-Force #9-10, and that was who Shatterstar had killed. 

That still doesn't explain why Masque is referred to as "she" the whole time -- and that "mask" he/she is wearing covers the entire body, corrects his stooped posture, can make a full range of facial expressions -- and Masque's powers can work right through the flesh-colored gloves. 

Also, there's a scene in XX #39 where Masque stares at pictures of old movie stars, wondering "who to become next" ... so Masque has a lot of those full-body masks, I guess. 

Needless to say, I don't buy the "wearing a mask" excuse Claremont came up with. However, I've got an alternate explanation: when the High Evolutionary took away everyone's powers in UX #379-380, it "rebooted" Masque's abilities -- so when the powers returned at the end of #380, Masque could now manipulate his own body. (The same thing happened to Warpath, who gained the ability to fly as a result of the Evolutionary's "reboot".) 

Anyway, returning this to a chronology-based discussion -- if Chris' second explanation, that Masque created a doppelganger who was killed in XFO #9-10, is true -- that means we need to amend Masque's listing for those issues. But, IS IT TRUE? 

This "explanation" was never established or hinted at IN THE BOOKS. 

And Chris' OTHER explanation for Masque's inconsistencies has quite a few holes in it, to the point of being an untrustworthy answer. 

So, regardless of what future posters who read Chris' comments may have to say about Masque's chronology -- I feel that, unless we get some IN-BOOK evidence that it wasn't really Masque in XFO #9-10, we should leave those appearances in his listing. Because Chris' answers were fairly obviously off-the-cuff, and there could be some OTHER plausible explanation for Masque's survival -- something as possibly simple as "he wasn't fully dead, and recovered over time". 

The moral of this post? Let's leave Masque's chronology as is. 


ALSO: Since Lila Cheney's extradimensional house is revealed in XX #37 to be fully sentient, should it receive an MCP listing? I think it should -- and its designation, by the way, is "House". 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Apr 2004 01:33 pm    Post subject: Lila's house
By Dhall

Jeph, 
I haven't (yet) read the issues that you are talking about. 
However, we have known that Lila's house was sentinent since at least Uncanny X-Men #259-260. I like the idea of giving it a listing. 

Dave Hall

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Posted: 06 Apr 2004 01:44 pm 
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Claremont's explanation for Masque is incomprehensible, and I wonder whether he's simply trying to cover an enormous error. And in fairness, at one point Masque's sex was meant to be undisclosed. I don't think the point was conclusively resolved until after Claremont left, and he may well not have been aware of that. 

Of course, there's a simple all-purpose explanation for these things: secondary mutation.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 06 Apr 2004 02:15 pm 
By Dhall

speaking generically, if an author writes a mess (which makes no sense or frankly contradicts things that have already been written in another comic) and then tries to cover it up by speaking (say in a fan publication, or at a convention) but never puts thier explanation on panel, why would the MCP change a listing? 

Sure, if we see a flashback, or an on-panel retcon the listing should change. If the author's retcon comes not in a comic, but in an interview we wouldn't make a change, right? 

I ask because as I understand it there is a lot of sloppy writing at Marvel these days. I've been away since 2000, ever since the X-Men:Revolution made me give up on buying comics. In many ways what I've heard about X-Men: Reload sounds exactly like Revolution did. It sounds like a lot of the writers do not even bother to research the characters or events they are writing about nowadays. 


Dave Hall

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Posted: 06 Apr 2004 02:42 pm
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
speaking generically, if an author writes a mess...and then tries to cover it up by speaking (say in a fan publication, or at a convention) but never puts thier explanation on panel, why would the MCP change a listing? 
<<<

I don't know -- I just wanted to head the Masque thing off at the pass, because the "he created a doppelganger to avoid death" line is increasingly becoming thought of as canon by posters on other boards. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Apr 2004 02:58 pm    
By Ant-Man

Paul O'Brien wrote: 

>>>
Of course, there's a simple all-purpose explanation for these things: secondary mutation. 
<<<


When I first read those issues, that was my first inclination... 
Secondary mutations seem to be becoming more prevalent in storylines...unfortunately!

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Posted: 06 Apr 2004 03:20 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Well, it could be that Masque *was* a man but is now a woman. Outlandish hypothesis: S/he is a transsexual, and his/her inability to alter his/her own body was a subconscious block (c.f. Molecule Man's inability to affect organics). Once s/he accepted his/her transsexuality, s/he was able to use his power to affect his own body and become female.

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Posted: 07 Apr 2004 04:10 am    Post subject: Sloppy researching
By dimadick

"I ask because as I understand it there is a lot of sloppy writing at Marvel these days. ... It sounds like a lot of the writers do not even bother to research the characters or events they are writing about nowadays. " 

Well the editors used to be able to point at inconsistancies between stories. These days Marvel seems to be proud of not confining the creativity of its creators by forcing them to stay true to the stories of their predecessors. They seem to consider that only hardcore fans care about continiuty. 

Naturally this is an open invitation for writers to offer their readers stories featuring glaring inconsistencies, minimal character development and events with little to no significance in the long run.

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Posted: 07 Apr 2004 10:45 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Naturally. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 07 Apr 2004 11:30 am    
By SeanCurtin

...alternately, we could assume that Masque's flesh-shaping abilities kicked in reflexively upon being fatally wounded by X-Force; the trauma of the injury caused her(?) powers to turn inward and regenerate her wounds. (There is a precedent for shapeshifters having minor regenerative abilities, as Mystique's demonstrated on several occasions.) 

Doesn't explain the sex change though.

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Posted: 07 Apr 2004 03:04 pm    Post subject: THe good old days
By garbonzo

Makes one long for the good old days when appearances were explained by characters in stilted, yet necessary, dialogue or in notes at the bottom of the panel from the editor. :confused:

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Thread 15

Posted: 25 Mar 2004 07:33 am    Post subject: Mystique #1-12
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

The placement of MYSTIQUE 1-12 seems to depend on two bookends: 

(1) This 12-issue stretch must begin after the conclusion of the Draco storyline in UX 433, which occurs after the Riot at Xavier's. Jean was in Hong Kong fetching Dust at the time of the Riot and did not return until X 138. Jean appears in MYSTIQUE #1. Therefore, the mini-series must begin after X 138. 

(2) This 12-issue stretch must end before Magneto destroys the Xavier Institute in X 147-FB (20-21), and thus likely before X 143, earlier that day. Why? Because in MYSTIQUE #12 the authorities agree to let Spencer Bronson attend Xavier's in lieu of juvenile detention. They wouldn't do that if the place were destroyed. 

Another placement clue is given in MYSTIQUE #10 (19-22), in which Forge tells Raven that Xavier is indisposed right now...Im not sure if youve seen the news, but theres some drama over at the school. My theory is that the newsworthy drama is the presumed fatal shooting of Emma Frost in X 139 (21-22). 

If this is the case, then issues 1 through 10 (page 18) of MYSTIQUE must occur between the time of Jean's return to the Institute with Dust in X 138 and Emma Frost's "murder" in X 139 (21-22). Given that X 139 (1-20) continues directly from X 138, then we should place MYSTIQUE 1-10 (page 18) between pages 20 and 21 of X 139. 

Now, according to X 140, this period of time occupies "a few days." We can probably stretch that "few days" reference to a week and have it maintain some credibility. So my proposal is to place MYSTIQUE 1-10 (page 18) into a week between pages 20 and 21 of X 139. Timewise, it is possible to do this, although it does require Mystique to be on the go from one assignment to the next. 

MYSTIQUE #11-12 can occur during the gap between X 141 and 142. (Remember that Emma's "murder" occurred "last month" according to a reference in X 142.) 

Well, how does this sound?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Mar 2004 09:48 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

A few things: 

- UX #429-434 don't *necessarily* occur before the Riot. We're only INFERRING that they do because UX #435-436 occur after the Riot, and there's a "three days later" reference in there between #434-435. 

Ignoring or re-interpreting the "three days" reference allows us, if necessary, to place the Riot between UX #434 and #435. 

- The "last month" reference in X #142 was in the recap page only, and I'd always read it to mean "in last month's issue". Like "Last week, on E.R. ..." I don't think we have to let that hold us to a month. (However, events in New Mutants v2 #1-13 seem to be setting the length of time between X #141-142 anyway.) 

- And Mystique #11-12 could always occur AFTER Xavier's is inevitably rebuilt and re-opened, as it will be in May. The "drama at the school" in #10 could be the fact that it's been burned down -- and Mystique #10 could occur between Magneto's destruction of the school in the second X #147-FB and his takeover of Manhattan in the first X #147-FB. 

(Is that feasible? XX #40-45 occur post-school destruction -- is there any evidence that they occur pre-, post-, or during Magneto's Manhattan takeover? Remember, in X #147-150 he wiped out Earth's electromagnetic communication means...) 

Anyway -- there are several ways to decompress the events of Mystique #1-10. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 Mar 2004 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: Mystique #1-12
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
(2) This 12-issue stretch must end before Magneto destroys the Xavier Institute in X 147-FB (20-21), and thus likely before X 143, earlier that day. Why? Because in MYSTIQUE #12 the authorities agree to let Spencer Bronson attend Xavier's in lieu of juvenile detention. They wouldn't do that if the place were destroyed. 
<<<


Not necessarily. The school is going to be rebuilt and reopened. The preview pages released for the first Claremont/Davis issue of UNCANNY X-MEN helpfully shows that it's still a fully functioning, publicly known school. 

Xavier isn't there any more (presumably because he's already left to appear in EXCALIBUR) but the school still bears his name.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 25 Mar 2004 03:10 pm    Post subject: Mystique #1-12
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
- UX #429-434 don't *necessarily* occur before the Riot. We're only INFERRING that they do because UX #435-436 occur after the Riot, and there's a "three days later" reference in there between #434-435. 
Ignoring or re-interpreting the "three days" reference allows us, if necessary, to place the Riot between UX #434 and #435.  
<<<


Um...why would we want to ignore the reference if we don't have to? 


Quote: 
>>>
- The "last month" reference in X #142 was in the recap page only, and I'd always read it to mean "in last month's issue". Like "Last week, on E.R. ..." I don't think we have to let that hold us to a month. 
<<<


Sorry, but no dice. The recap page in X 142 says: "And last month...Emma Frost was murdered." You suggest that's a reference to the previous month's issue, but Emma was "murdered" not one, but three issues before, in X 139. Again, is there any real need to ignore this reference? As you note, New Mutants is necessarily forcing time in there. 


Quote: 
>>>
And Mystique #11-12 could always occur AFTER Xavier's is inevitably rebuilt and re-opened, as it will be in May.  
<<<


Oh, Mystique #11-12 could occur after the rebuilding of Xavier's, but that would presume a number of things that may not be borne out of future comics. And something tells me not to count on events in future comics turning out a specific way (cough) Cyclops (cough) :wink:.  I'm particularly interested to see how Xavier's story unfolds. We know that he leaves at some point after the school's destruction, but we don't know yet how much time passes. 

As a minor point, I'd rather not put too much time between Mystique #10 and 11, given that Forge brought up going out with Raven in issue #10 and they do so in #11, but there could be time enough to go from a full moon to a waning crescent moon, though, if those lunar phases have any validity. 


Quote: 
>>>
The "drama at the school" in #10 could be the fact that it's been burned down -- and Mystique #10 could occur between Magneto's destruction of the school in the second X #147-FB and his takeover of Manhattan in the first X #147-FB. 
<<<


It's easier for me to swallow Forge not joining Xavier in responding to the "drama" if the drama were Emma's presumed murder rather than the crisis of the Institute's total destruction. And I don't think Forge would have chosen the word "drama" if the reference were to the latter. 
But yes, if the drama is indeed the destruction of the Institute, that would necessitate the placement of Mystique #11 and 12 after the rebuilding of the school, the timing of which is not yet revealed. 


Quote: 
>>>
Anyway -- there are several ways to decompress the events of Mystique #1-10. 
<<<


I suppose, but are there other ways that don't ignore temporal references and don't rely on the mercy of future storytelling? 

My question really was, "does my theory work?" Not "can any other theory possibly work?" I'm still waiting for flaws in my reasoning to be exposed with information we currently have available. Why can't my theory work? 

Again, as always, time will reveal -- the problem with staying on the cusp of newly released comics.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Mar 2004 03:34 pm    Post subject: Mystique #1-12
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

One other thing I forgot to mention that would support Mystique #11-12 occurring before the destruction of the Institute... 

In Mystique #11, Forge tells Raven that Xavier "isnt at the mansion tonight" -- as if he'd normally be at the mansion. The phrase isn't that he's not at the mansion anymore. And since Raven is Xavier's agent, won't she know when he's no longer based at the mansion? 

Take that into account, then take into account the fact that the school must be operating in Mystique #12 (as noted before). 

In addition, take into account the fact that Xavier leaves before the Institute is rebuilt (according to those scenes with Scott and Emma in X 151 and 154). 

Put it all together and you have Mystique #11-12 occurring before the destruction.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Mar 2004 04:59 pm    
By ShadZ

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
- The "last month" reference in X #142 was in the recap page only, and I'd always read it to mean "in last month's issue". Like "Last week, on E.R. ..."  
<<<


I haven't heard a TV show use that phrase in years. They all seem to have adopted "Previously, on ER..." instead. (I first remember that phrasing on LA Law, but I'm sure it's older.) The reason is simple -- quite often, the flashbacks don't just come from last week's episodes, but from much older episodes too. On X-Files, sometimes the flashback clips would be from episodes that aired years earlier! 

Not that this is relevant. You just triggered something, I guess...
_________________
ShadZ

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Posted: 25 Mar 2004 05:30 pm    Post subject: Previously...
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Not to digress, but I believe the reason to be syndication. A weekly series might end up being seen five days a week, so "last week" wouldn't work well.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Mar 2004 11:52 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Man, I'm getting behind in replying to these things. 

Quote: 
>>>
The recap page in X 142 says: "And last month...Emma Frost was murdered." You suggest that's a reference to the previous month's issue, but Emma was "murdered" not one, but three issues before, in X 139. 
<<<

I tend not to listen to ANYTHING the recap page has to say. I have no idea who wrote it, or what they were thinking when they said "last month". For me, it's the equivalent of the answers in the letter columns. 

Quote: 
>>>
Again, is there any real need to ignore this reference? As you note, New Mutants is necessarily forcing time in there. 
<<<

Well, on the other hand, if New Mutants #1-13 makes it THREE months between X #141-142, are you going to sweat to compress it to make it fit the "last month" reference in X #142's recap page? 

Personally, I say we ignore any information that comes from the recap pages, as their source is suspect. 

Quote: 
>>>
One other thing that would support Mystique #11-12 occurring before the destruction of the Institute ... In Mystique #11, Forge tells Raven that Xavier "isnt at the mansion tonight" -- as if he'd normally be at the mansion. The phrase isn't that he's not at the mansion anymore. And since Raven is Xavier's agent, won't she know when he's no longer based at the mansion? ... then take into account the fact that the school must be operating in Mystique #12 ... In addition, take into account the fact that Xavier leaves before the Institute is rebuilt (according to those scenes with Scott and Emma in X 151 and 154). 
<<<

Good logic, but a few holes. All X #151/154 tells us is that Xavier RETIRED as headmaster. We don't know that he left the school grounds permanently prior to its being rebuilt. 

IF there was a period of time after the school's rebuilding and reopening when Xavier lived there, retired, prior to leaving for Genosha -- that would fit the qualifications for placing Mystique #11-12 as well. 

Also, we know that Xavier and Forge like to keep Mystique a little in the dark -- separated from the others, Xavier appearing to her only in telepathic form, so -- no, Mystique might NOT immediately know when Xavier was no longer mansion-based. It's not out of the question that Forge was feeding her a party line. 

Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
UX #429-434 don't *necessarily* occur before the Riot. We're only INFERRING that they do because UX #435-436 occur after the Riot, and there's a "three days later" reference in there between #434-435. Ignoring or re-interpreting the "three days" reference allows us, if necessary, to place the Riot between UX #434 and #435. 
<<<

Um...why would we want to ignore the reference if we don't have to? 
<<<

If "The Draco" can occur before the Riot, then Mystique #1 can also occur before the Riot -- and Jean's appearance can occur before she leaves for Hong Kong, rather than after she returns -- and instantly, we have more room to expand the events of Mystique #1-10. 

So maybe it's a bad idea. That's okay, what if we tried to expand the OTHER end?... 

I still think that "the drama at the school that was on the news" from the end of #10 could have been the school's destruction by Magneto, who was then heading for Manhattan -- I mean, a one-day lockdown at the school might not have gotten on the news if word of the murder hadn't leaked out -- but the school in flames certainly would be newsworthy. 

I think it's a lot easier, temporally, to shift the bulk of Mystique #1-10 into the long gap between X #141-142, rather than try to crank open a larger-than-intended gap in X #139 and make Mystique's adventures ALL occur in a single week or less. 

Of course, like I say, that's contingent on what upcoming issues tell us about Xavier's whereabouts. UX #442-443, X #155-156 and XX #46 are supposed to be the big fallout/mop-up issues ... let's see what they have to say. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Mar 2004 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystique #1-12     
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
In addition, take into account the fact that Xavier leaves before the Institute is rebuilt (according to those scenes with Scott and Emma in X 151 and 154). 
<<<


I don't think we can say that with confidence. There's clearly a gap period (presmably intended to be the summer break) during which the school is rebuilt prior to reopening for the autumn term. 

By the time we see the school in the Uncanny promo pages, Xavier has apparently left for Genosha. But that doesn't mean that he left straight away. In fact, in X-STATIX #19, a wheelchair-bound Xavier is working with scientists somewhere in the USA (presumably an X-Corporation facility). So we know he didn't up and leave for Genosha immediately. 

It seems reasonable enough at this stage to assume that Xavier stuck around to supervise the reconstruction of his mansion and make sure things were running smoothly under Scott and Emma before decamping to follow his own project in EXCALIBUR. Of course, all of this will doubtless become much clearer when the first Reload issues ship.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 30 Mar 2004 09:28 pm    Post subject: Another wait-and-see
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I tend not to listen to ANYTHING the recap page has to say. I have no idea who wrote it, or what they were thinking when they said "last month". For me, it's the equivalent of the answers in the letter columns. ...Personally, I say we ignore any information that comes from the recap pages, as their source is suspect.  
<<<


So far, I just don't see a reason to flat-out ignore the recap page reference. 


Quote: 
>>>
Of course, like I say, that's contingent on what upcoming issues tell us about Xavier's whereabouts. UX #442-443, X #155-156 and XX #46 are supposed to be the big fallout/mop-up issues ... let's see what they have to say.  
<<<


You bet. But for now I'm leaving the chronology as is, since no one's made a strong argument that it can't possibly work, but rather that there are other possibilities contingent on a number of factors. 

As I've said, such are the perils of working "on the cusp" of newly released comics. But fun, eh? 

Those Reload issues can't come too soon...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 31 Mar 2004 09:32 am
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
So far, I just don't see a reason to flat-out ignore the recap page reference. 
<<<


Well, like I say -- if NM2 #1-13 tells us it's been THREE months, will you bother trying to compress it to keep the recap page's "month" reference? 

Quote: 
>>>
for now I'm leaving the chronology as is, since no one's made a strong argument that it can't possibly work 
<<<


Okay -- maybe I haven't made it explicitly clear above, but -- ratcheting open the gap in X #139 from "a few days" to "a week" ... *can't possibly work*. That is, unless you're prepared to ignore more explicit temporal clues. 

Remember, in X #138, Prof. X says on a Thursday that the school will be closing in "exactly six days". He actually says "exactly", a good reason not to disregard this reference. We determined that X #140, and the lockdown, occured the day the school was to close -- the following Wednesday. That's why the students are still there, sitting around with suitcases and sighing. 

So there's a gap of EXACTLY six days there. 

Further, the end of X #138 and pp.1-20 of X #139 occur on a Saturday. And the closing pages of X #139 occur the night before the lockdown, Tuesday. 

So the gap between pp.20-21 of X #139 is, explicitly, THREE days. 

Yet you're trying to fit a full week of Mystique's adventures in there. 

THAT'S why I've been suggesting alternate placements. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 31 Mar 2004 09:55 pm    Post subject: Sweet Clarity
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Ah! Things are coming into focus at last! Thanks for clarifying things. I will put final placement of Mystique #1-12 on hold until at least next week, when the first Reload issues come out. 

My initial placement of the first ten issues was during the gap between X 141 and 142, as you suggest. The newsworthy "drama" mentioned in issue #10 was the destruction of the school (although I'm still bothered by Forge's choice of words there). When Xavier was called away (to appear in X 146), the Institute wasn't yet destroyed, which is why Forge wouldn't have tagged along -- the situation hadn't built up to crisis mode yet. The destruction of the Institute in X 147-FB brought the media attention to which Forge refers. The destruction is also noted in XX 40, which occurs that same day. 

Now, we just have to deal with Mystique #11-12 and the fact that the school is open again and Xavier presumably has not yet left. Why do I get the sinking feeling that Xavier will be departing before the school is rebuilt? 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 Apr 2004 01:02 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Now, we just have to deal with Mystique #11-12 and the fact that the school is open again and Xavier presumably has not yet left. Why do I get the sinking feeling that Xavier will be departing before the school is rebuilt? 
<<<

Probably because you read the preview pages for X #155 and UX #442. :wink:

In X #155, which picks up RIGHT after the graveside scenes in X #151 and 154, the Beast comments that the Professor has left for Genosha, and Hank isn't sure if he'll be back. And in UX #442, Nick Fury strands Prof. X and Logan on Genosha with no ride home. 

Now, here I go again chronologizing by the preview pages -- Hank's impression means nothing, and clearly Logan, at least, will get a ride home -- which means the Prof. COULD come back to the school prior to Excalibur v3 #1. But it's something to flag nonetheless. 

By the way, in Mystique #12, Forge says that, once they send the three-eyed kid to Xavier's, *the Professor* can teach him how to use his powers. Not "the X-Men", but "the Professor". Ugh. 

So, either Prof. X DOES return to the school between UX #443 and EXCAL3 #1 (we'll see), or Forge has been ordered to keep Mystique in the dark about the Professor's new whereabouts (like I suggested earlier)... 

Or the "drama at the school" in Mystique #10 is something BESIDES Emma's shooting or the Institute's destruction, and ALL of Mystique #1-12 occur in the gap between X #141-142. 

Was there any newsworthy school drama in any of the OTHER books that occur in that gap? Or any books that COULD occur in that gap? Offhand, the only issues I know that fit in there are NM2 #1-13 and UX #437-441, with a possible inclusion of UX #435-436 -- but #435-441 take place away from the mansion anyway. 

So, any newsworthy drama in NM2 #1-10? Maybe there'll be some in #11-13 ... cross your fingers, because that would solve this. 

And here's hoping the Prof. comes home for a few days, even to get some supplies. (The preview pages for EXCAL3 #1 do show him with a heavy case of supplies, so there's some hope for that scenario.) 

Ah, Mystique #1-12. So many problems. :smile:

-Jeph!

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Posted: 07 Apr 2004 08:51 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
So, any newsworthy drama in NM2 #1-10? Maybe there'll be some in #11-13 ... cross your fingers, because that would solve this. 
<<<


I thought of that a week or so ago and couldn't find any newsworthy drama at the school in NM2 1-10.  :sad:

I'm about to crack open X 155 and UX 442. We'll see what we can glean from them that preview pages haven't already revealed.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 16

Posted: 07 Apr 2004 10:37 pm    Post subject: Nightcrawler
By Dhall

For some reason Nightcrawler's listing has Gambit 2000 listed in between X 105 and 106. For all of the other characters in Gam 00, it is after UX 380, and before the Black Sun limited Series. 

NIghtcrawler 

*Gam '00 
X 100 
X 101 
X 102 
X 103 
X '00

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Thread 17

Posted: 08 Apr 2004 07:23 am    Post subject: Wolverine: The End #3
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Wolverine: The End #3 contains two flashbacks adding details to events in Wolverine's back story. One is a photo of the infant James being cradled his parents, and the other is another scene of the Professor and the Weapon X scientists working on him. 

Are we treating this sort of material as canon? As I understand it, the END minis are generally supposed to take place in alternate future timelines, which presumably means that they share a common past with the present day Marvel Universe. If so, that would imply that they can add further material to characters' back stories and that these flashbacks ought to be treated as canon. 

Without getting into major spoilers, this may become increasingly significant as the series progresses. It seems to be embarking on an exposition of hidden details of Wolverine's back story.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 18

Posted: 19 Feb 2004 06:48 pm    Post subject: Four #2
By ADMINISTRATOR

Better sit down, Paul B. 

According to 4 #2, which ships next week, Johnny Storm is 25 years old.  

Which, I must admit, fits his current characterization a lot better. If this guy is in his mid-to-late thirties, he's in need of some serious counselling. 


watching: jeopardy

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Posted: 19 Feb 2004 10:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Four #2
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Why am I not surprised by the absurdly young age? And yes, Johnny *is* in need of serious counselling. The guy's extremely immature for his age; just ask Sue. Remember his responsibilities in the flagship title (after the current story in Four) are supposed to get him to finally grow up and it's long overdue.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 23 Feb 2004 09:07 pm
By Harrison

Is 4 considered canon? I've only read the first issue, but it already seems to contradict the main title.

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Posted: 23 Feb 2004 09:17 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Uhm ... in what way, exactly? 

Paul B. thinks it takes place sometime before the current story arc in "Fantastic Four" -- I personally think it takes place sometime after, but I'm keeping my mouth shut until more issues come out. 

Just because the status quo is slightly different doesn't mean that one book "contradicts" another -- it just means they're not taking place contemporaneously. 

-Jeph! 
who managed to spell "contemporaneously"

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Posted: 23 Mar 2004 07:25 pm    
By Harrison

Specifically, in both books they are newly bankrupt, under completely different circumstances. In both books, they have to get real jobs, and in both books, they act like this is the very first time they've ever had to go through this. 

How can being broke be totally new *twice*?

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Posted: 23 Mar 2004 08:58 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

I have a vague memory of the Fantastic Four being broke once before, and being evicted from the Baxter Building. 


watching: larry king

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Posted: 23 Mar 2004 09:44 pm    Post subject: FF 9
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Yup, you're right. It happened in FF 9. Kinda been there, done that. But to have two similar plots involving the same characters running in contemporaneous titles is...just bad. I'm starting to lean toward (and hoping for) Four being non-canon. We'll see...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 23 Mar 2004 10:37 pm    Post subject: Re: FF 9
By ADMINISTRATOR

Okay.....that's not the one I'm thinking of. I'm thinking somewhere in issues between 120 and 190. 


watching: nightline

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Posted: 24 Mar 2004 02:57 am    
By Peter Fabricius

160-163, perhaps. The story with Arkon and the multiple universes. 
I have only read the in the danish translation published in 1978, but they were in deep financial troubles in those issues. It is stated that Reed owns 51% of the shares in FF Inc.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: 08 Apr 2004 10:36 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Harrison wrote: 
>>>
Specifically, in both books they are newly bankrupt, under completely different circumstances. In both books, they have to get real jobs, and in both books, they act like this is the very first time they've ever had to go through this. 

How can being broke be totally new *twice*? 
<<<

Just breezing through in between mountains of "real" work. :smile: 

The stories are similar because Bill Jemas asked for them both. He asked Waid to write the FF as broke and having to move to suburbia. Waid tried doing that as organically as possible and proposed essentially what we saw at the end of "Authoritative Action." That's when Waid was fired and Jemas got Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa to come up with something. He wrote what we're now seeing as Knights 4 -- which is still being presented as canon, despite some radical changes in characterizations. 

Waid was re-hired and continued with what he had already established in "Authoritative Action" not thinking anything was going to become of Aguirre-Sacasa's version. But somebody liked what Aguirre-Sacasa did and decided it should be published as well, and now we have the same plot device used twice in a short period of time. 

On the plus side, though -- and I haven't kept up with these boards to see what the consensus is -- "Authoritative Action" does appear to be fairly far out of place chronologically with other books published more-or-less simultaneously. So Knights 4 -- painful though it may be -- is still in continuity but would supposedly take place much earlier than how it is presented. (Shortly after the Spider-Man/Dr. Strange/Dormammu story perhaps?) "Authoritative Action" and beyond in the main book would occur much later, by contrast, after Knights 4 has ended. (Hopefully soon.) Which would explain why Reed is such an idiot under Aguirre-Sacasa, but is able to take his mis-fortune (pun intended) in stride by the time Waid's story occurs -- Reed learned from his last mistake and made accommodations for perpetual financial solvency. 

Of course, I haven't done any thorough analysis to see if that holds water with other character appearances, but that's my initial take.

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Thread 19

Posted: 07 Apr 2004 10:46 pm    Post subject: X-Men 2000
By Dhall

IN the listings for the various X-Men characters X '00 is listed as being between pages of X 103. This is impossible. 

X 2000 comes after Rogue is made field leader. This happens well into X 103. Now take a close look at X 103. ON page 4, 8 Colossus is at Harry's Hideaway fighting the Goth. We know that this is going on at the same time as the rest of the issue, because right after making Rogue leader on Page 15, Angel, Psylocke, and Thunderbird go off, find the fight at Harry's on page 16, then while the rest of the team are still sitting around the table at the mansion, fight the Goth on pages 18-21. 

There is no time in this issue for X 2000 to occur. Colossus is simply not available any time during X 103. 

I'm not sure yet where X 2000 goes, but it has to be sometime after X 103.

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Posted: 08 Apr 2004 03:05 am    Post subject: X-Men 2000
By dimadick

Well there isn't much tying the Colossus scenes to those concerning the election of Rogue as a field leader. 

In X-Men II #103, the scenes leading to the election of Rogue are featured in pages 1-3, 5-7, 9-15. They all occure withing the mansion. No reference to it being day or night. The X-Men deciding her election were Wolverine, Psylocke, Nightcrawler, Thunderbird and Archangel. Tessa and Forge were also present but apparently took no part in the decision and were not even considered as candidates for leadership. 

The scenes involving Colossus in Harry's Hideway seem to have some hours in between them. Page 4 reportedly occures in a Sunday morning. Colossus changes the TV channel from a presentation of Presidential candidate Robert Kelly to a baseball game involving the Yankees. The Goth arrive in page 8 when it is obviously night-time. This leads directly to page 16 which features Psylocke, Archangel and Thunderbird discovering the fight scene. 

Rogue, Sage, Forge, Nightcrawler and Wolverine are featured in the "Situation Room" in pages 17 and 19. But there is no indication this is the same meeting as before. They are reportedly the "Lifers of this mutant monastery" and are discussing ways to locate Shadowcat and to enter the Neo stronghold in Brooklyn to recover Cecelia Reyes and Charlotte Jones. While they are at it the Goth abduct Colossus, Archangel, Thunderbird, Psylocke and "every living person" in the "whole town of Salem Center". 

X-Men 2000 involves the X-Men in a mission against Stryfe in in Monkey River Town, Belize. The field team included Rogue (leader), Colossus, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Psylocke, Thunderbird and Lady Deathstrike (Rogue's pet project). X-Men left behind in the mansion were Tessa, Forge and his sorcerer's apprentice Danielle Moonstar. 

This mission is for now placed between the election of Rogue as field leader and the abduction of Colossus, Psylocke and Thunderbird. The reason is that there is not much space left for alternate placements. 

X-Men II #104 have Rogue leading Beast, Nightcrawler, Phoenix and Wolverine in a mission to Honk Kong, in an effort to locate the Goth and release their fallen teammates. Said teammates included Archangel, Cable, Colossus, Gambit, Psylocke, Storm and Thunderbird. Clearly they were unavailable for a mission against Stryfe. 

This leads directly to Uncanny X-Men #385 where Rogue manages to kill the Goth and rescue her teammates. She is guilt-ridden and depressed for some time and not the rather cheerful figure from X-Men 2000. 

Then comes X-Men II #105. Psylocke is targeted by the Twisted Sisters, hired by a mysterious employer. Psylocke is assisted by Archangel, Colossus, Nightcrawler ,Rogue, Thunderbird, Wolverine. The mysterious employer is not recognized and we only see his rather bushy eyebrow. However Chris Claremont later revealed he was intended to be Stryfe, seeking revenge for his humiliating defeat in X-Men 2000. 

This would require X-Men 2000 to occure between X-Men II #103 and 105. Any ideas for alternate placements within this tight space?

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Apr 2004 08:46 am
By Starman

I don't know if this helps, but on the Chris Claremont Checklist (http://www.chrisclaremontchecklist.net/) the chronological placement of the feature characters in X'00 is between UX 385 and X 105.
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Apr 2004 09:39 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Dimadick: 

Couldn't you just say "X-Men #103 leads directly into an adventure that ends in UX #385"? You're not writing a thesis here. I have to admit I have a hard time following all of your posts, because they're simply so long and full of digressions -- for example, did you honestly need to list which X-Men were in X #104-105? If you could stick to *only the details relevant to making your point*, it would be a lot easier to read your stuff. 

Back to the chronological discussion ... if X 2000 needs to occur after UX #385, and should (IF the shadowy guy is Stryfe, which we only know from an outside interview) occur before X #105 ... then that's where it occurs. Rogue's mood notwithstanding, there's simply no other slot for it. 

(Unless the guy in X #105 *isn't* Stryfe. Or if his motivation *isn't* revenge for the events of X 2000 ... but since this particular outside interview doesn't contradict anything in the books, like his Masque one did, I think we can safely use it to guide our chronological analysis.) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Apr 2004 12:34 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Okay, I did a quick read-through of the relevant issues, and found a good slot for X 2000. 

Yes, it has to come after Rogue's election as field leader in X #103, as her new title is explicitly referenced in X 2000. 

As discussed earlier, it can't fit *into* X #103 unless we do a major page-shift, claiming that Colossus' time at Harry's on pp. 4, 8, and 16 occurs on a LATER DATE than Rogue's election as field leader on pp.1-3, 5-7, and 9-15. 

However, there's a better reason not to force the annual into X #103 -- on p.17 of X #103, Rogue states that the team's priority is to "find a way back into the Neo stronghold in Brooklyn ... we got friends trapped inside there." The stronghold has been sealed since X #102, with Cecelia Reyes and Charlotte Jones trapped inside ... so presumably freeing them has been a priority ever since X #102, before Rogue was made leader. 

Yet in X 2000, we open with a scene of the X-Men goofing off and swimming in Breakstone Lake -- NOT something they'd be doing if several of their friends were being held captive. (In fact, in X #106, when they DO storm the stronghold, Cece asks what took them so long, and Kurt replies "forgive us, Cecelia, we had other threats to deal with." It sounds like they came as soon as they could.) 

So I'm thinking that we should place X 2000 *after* the X-Men's successful rescue of their friends in X #106. This would be the first time, post X #103, that they'd feel right in having some downtime. 

So how does this work with Stryfe's chronology, as discussed in this thread? 

There's a subplot, beginning in UX #384 (during the Slaver arc), where Jean is menaced by a villain on the astral plane whom she recognizes -- a villain who then possesses Cable, makes him attack Gambit, then erases the memories of the event from all parties. Cable is still influenced by this villain, though, as in UX #385 he notes taking a strange joy from the defeat of Rogue and Wolverine. 

Cable is a bit broody in UX #386, and Gambit notes a change that has come over him since #384, but that's the last we ever hear of this particular subplot. The villain is never named. 

However, according to Claremont in later interviews, the villain was intended to be Stryfe -- who, if CC had had his way, would have eventually taken over Cable, Jean, and Havok -- the entire Summers clan -- and forced the rest of the X-Men out of the mansion. His influencing of Cable was only the first step, and the only step that made it to the printed page. 

If, as Dimadick claims CC said, this subtle attack was the beginnings of a REVENGE for his defeat in X 2000, then we'd definitely have to place X 2000 into X #103, before the Slaver arc starts -- which doesn't work so well, as covered above. 

(There ARE clues that Stryfe is the villain, by the way -- he refers to Jean as "Matriarch", asks Cable if fighting him is like "looking in the mirror", and when Cable's under his influence, he sees himself with two flesh arms and an unscarred face. Remember, Stryfe is Cable's clone, Jean's genetic offspring, and unaffected by Cable's T-O virus -- so these clues do point right at him.) 

Now, according to Dimadick's recollection of OTHER Claremont interviews, Stryfe was ALSO the mysterious telepath behind the Twisted Sisters' attack on Psylocke in X #105. According to him, CC claimed that Stryfe's presence there was more of his revenge for being defeated in X 2000 ... but there's no in-book evidence of that. The villain doesn't allude to the events of X 2000 in either appearance ... and in fact, there's no rationale given at all for his attacks on Psylocke OR Jean and Cable. 

CC's interviews seem to indicate that Stryfe FIRST resurfaced in X 2000; THEN went on to menace Cable in UX #384-385; THEN attacked Psylocke in X #105 -- and then, thanks to editorial mandate, dropped all his devious plots and suddenly vanished. 

However, could my suggestion for moving X 2000 work for Stryfe? Yes, I think it could. Consider this: 

With my new order, Stryfe would FIRST reappear on the astral plane in UX #384, menacing Jean and planting darkness in Cable -- then erasing everyone's memories of him, *since they still think him dead*. (Which, if X 2000 came before this, wouldn't be the case.) 

THEN he'd show up in X #105, in person but in shadows, attacking Betsy through surrogates. His dialogue at the end indicates that he was mainly testing to be sure that she'd lost her telepathy, and he left vowing an attack on the X-Men "very soon". If this issue comes last in his chronology, then thanks to editorial re-writes that attack would never come. However, by placing X 2000 after X #106... 

FINALLY Stryfe would step out of the shadows in X 2000, confirming to the X-Men that he was indeed alive. CC's intent to have him infiltrate the Summers clan had been destroyed by editorial mandates, so THIS must now have been what his earlier, subtle appearances were leading up to -- an attack on the X-Men with Prime Sentinels. And upon his defeat in this issue, instead of beginning to plot a subtle revenge that would never come (if X 2000 were placed prior to UX #384), he simply decided to lay low -- and next surfaced in the "Gambit & Bishop" limited series. 

Cable, I postulate, finally figured out who was messing with him in UX #384 -- that's why he was moody in #386 -- and after Stryfe's defeat in X 2000, Cable began to methodically hunt him down -- a hunt that culminated in the "Gambit & Bishop" series. 

It's a nice progression, I think -- Stryfe attacking first from the astral plane, then in shadow and through surrogates, and finally directly and in-person. And it gives some sort of closure to his plots in UX #384 and X #105, rather than leaving them forever unfinished. 

So, yeah -- long story short, I suggest placing X 2000 just after X #106, and before UX #386. It subverts Claremont's original intent a bit, but it makes for -- I think -- much smoother reading overall. 

Thoughts? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Apr 2004 12:50 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Jeez. And was I just ragging on Dimadick for long posts? for shame. 

By the way, there's a scene in X #107 that seems to indicate that X 2000 occured before the Slaver arc -- but it can be worked around. 

On p.5, Rogue thinks about her decision to kill the Goth (from UX #385). The art shows her battling Lady Deathstrike (from X 2000), THEN the Goth -- and the narration talks about the X-Men's refusal to kill -- which was a lesson Rogue was trying to impart to Lady Dee in X 2000. 

It reads like this: 

"The X-Men had always refused to allow the ends to justify the means. That was Rogue's belief, with all her heart. [Image of Rogue fighting Lady Dee, specifically the scene from where she tells her not to kill.]" 

"Then came the Goth." [images from the Slaver arc.] 

Note the "then". On the surface, it seems to be clearly implying that X 2000 occured before the slaver arc -- however, the implication only arises if you take the art and dialogue as one. Ignoring the art and going just by the dialogue, there's no such implication. 

So if the dialogue about Rogue refusing to kill BEFORE facing the Goth doesn't *specifically* reference the art of her fighting Lady Dee, why show that image? 

I say, because in that scene Rogue is very strongly trying to pass on the no-killing ideal -- and a good motivation for her to be doing so, especially on a lost cause like Deathstrike, could be her guilt over recently killing the Goth. 

If you consider it that way, and mentally separate the art from the dialogue, then the scene can STILL be read as if X 2000 occured after the Slaver arc. 

And, Dimadick, you mentioned that Rogue was depressed for quite some time after killing the Goth -- not the cheerful figure from X 2000 -- but in fact, we only see Rogue's depression on-panel ONCE, in X #107. In all other appearances between UX #385 and X #107, she's either portrayed as neutral, or -- in UX #386 -- cheerful and partying. Since UX #386 *must* fall between UX #385 and X #107 no matter what, and she's cheerful in it, I see no reason not to place a cheerful Rogue in X 2000 in that general timeframe as well. Clearly she must be internalizing her guilt. 

Okay, rambling over and off to bed for me. Looking forward to feedback in the morning... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Apr 2004 02:14 am    Post subject: Gambit and Bishop
By dimadick

Your rationalisation of Stryfe'sactivities seems to make sense. 

Actually when refering to Rogue's mood I was merely comparing her introduction in X 2000 of how "She loves life with a fierce passion. And lets the world know it with a laugh." to her depression mode which is evident again in X-Men II #109. 

If Claremont was planning for Stryfe to take over the mansion, Chris did get his wish with Gambit and Bishop Alpha and #1. But he only takes control of Beast, Nightcrawler and Professor X. Sometime after the departure of Psylocke, Rogue, Storm and Thunderbird and their re-appearance in X-Treme X-Men #1. Was his motivation for doing so ever explained, since he reportedly only wanted to ask for help against Cable?

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Apr 2004 09:34 am    
By Dhall

Good work guys, I like this order a lot better. 

Dave Hall

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Apr 2004 11:58 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, Dave. I aim to please. 

No, Dimadick, Stryfe's motivation for taking over some of the X-Men in the "Gambit & Bishop" series was never touched on -- as THAT series was hastily and utterly re-written midstream as well, thanks to the almighty editors. 

Still, it amounts to two appearances in a row where Stryfe begins his cunning plans by infiltrating the minds of the team, then veers off into something else entirely... 

-Jeph! 
Edit: hundredth post!

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:24 am    Post subject: Silver Surfer - The Enslavers
By Jopili

I didn't find (nowhere, in the MCP) "Silver Surfer: The Enslavers". 
Is it canon? 
jp

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: Silver Surfer - The Enslavers
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

I've never seen anything that says it is or isn't, but it's insanely tricky to place. I can't remember specifics offhand, but I remember there's a shot towards the end of the issue that defies a definitive placement. I know it was related to the Fantastic Four... I want to say it showed Reed in a cast, placing it between FF #277 and #278, but it also had another character there that was simply unavailable during that time frame.

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:46 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

I remember speculating about where it occured back when it was published. 
Turns out I kept some notes. 

We have 
The Surfer in outer space, so it must occur after Silver Surfer (vol 3) #1 
Spider-Man in his classic costume 
Hulk with grey skin 
Thor without a beard 
She-Hulk in FF costume, so it is between Secret Wars #12 and Avengers 278 
The Thing in his normal form 
Hercules, who was injured in Avengers 273 and did not appear on Earth uninjured again until Thor #408 
Iron Fist in his classic green costume, so it was before his last appearance in Power Man & Iron Fist 
Storm with a mohawk, so between Uncanny X-Men #173 and #224 
Nightcrawler, Rogue and Colossus in original costumes 
Professor X walking, so must be before Uncanny X-Men #200 
Vision in his original costume 
Snowbird 
And the Baxter Building, destroyed in Fantastic Four #278, and that takes place before Silver Surfer (vol 3) #1 

So something has to be dropped, or explained away. I think we can ignore the Baxter Building reference, and say it was 'really' Four Freedoms Plaza.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:12 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

The main problems, as far as I can recall, are the presence of the Baxter Building, Guardian (if that's actually him) being alive, the Silver Surfer free from Earth, Professor X (if that's actually him) being on Earth and walking, and the Richards's living in Connecticut.

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:19 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Okay, so I'm pleading ignorance here, but: 

What is this book? 

Is it a one-shot? Graphic novel? Hardcover? Mini-series? 

I know nothing about it -- and since according to the notes above it contains some X-Men, I Must Own It. 

Any info would be helpful ... thanks! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:01 am    
By Peter Fabricius

It is a hardcover graphic novel by Stan Lee and Keith Pollard, published in 1990. 
It deals with the Earth being enslaved by a powerful alien named Mrrungo-Mu. 
Aside from Reed and Sue Richards, all the other characters are bystanders that are only there so tell us how powerful Mrrungo-Mu is.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 11:51 am    Post subject:
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Is it also available in softcover, like the "Nick Fury / Wolverine: the Scorpio Connection" HC graphic novel? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:55 pm 
By Peter Fabricius

I don't know, a quick search on Google gets only hardcover versions, ditto for Amazon. 
So I don't think it is likely.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 8:05 pm    Post subject: Mr. Campbell, your Enforcer idea..........
By Scathach80

seems to have some merit. In The Official Index to Marvel Team-Up, George Olshevsky refers to the Enforcer from those Spider-Man issues as "the second Enforcer".

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 9:10 pm    Post subject: X-Man Additions
By Dhall

Since I've just read X-Man 67-70 and 63-66, I wanted to offer a few additions: (I'll do a write up of X-Man 69, and put that in the issue thread as well.) 

X-Man 
XM 67 
XM 68 
*XM 69 
XM 70 


Melchior (new listing) 
Xm 67 

Forge-998 
*XM-69-FB 
XM 63 

Grey, Nate-998 (new listing) 
XM 68 
XM 69 
XM 70 

Scratch-998 (new listing) 
Xm 63 
XM 67 
XM 68 
XM 69 
XM 70 

Grey, Jean-998 
*XM 69-FB 
XM 5 
XM 6 
Xm 7 
... 
XM 52 
C2 76 
XM 67 
XM 68 
*XM 69 
XM 70 

It's too bad we're stuck with the idea of Maddy being an alternate Jean. Oh, and she's not actaully from Earth-998, but another unnamed parallel dimension, that we never see, but where she was exiled from. 

Dave Hall

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 7:25 am    Post subject: PIRANHA II...JOSEPHINE "JOEY" PULASKI...SCARLET BE
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

new entries marked ** 


PIRANHA II/ 
(Piranha Jones  PM 30 (14p12) 

**PM 30 
**PM 31 
TER 6 
TER 7 


PULASKI, JOSEPHINE "JOEY" 

**AAF 17-FB (12p3-12p4) 
**AAF 16 unnamed, last page 
AAF 17 


SCARLET BEETLE 

TTA 39 
**UTSM 12 
IM 44/2 
ASM@ 24/4 


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#170

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 11:09 am    Post subject: Mariko Yashida
By Dhall

Mariko Appears BTS in XU 29/2, as Logan is on his way to having a date with her. (He has flowers, and is apparently late.) 

Yashida, Mariko 

UX 123 
UX 143 
BEST OF MARVEL COMICS 1 
*XU 29/2 -BTS 
W 1 
W 2 
W 3 
W 4

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:55 pm    Post subject: Cyclops and Phoenix
By Dhall

There are two flashbacks in UX 376, which appear to be new (among a bunch that aren't) 

On Page 2 of this issue, Jean and Scott are sitting on a hillside, talking about leaving the X-Men, finding some time away from the others. 

I believe that this takes place before X 71. 


On Page 3 of this issue, there is a flashback with Jean and Scott, where Jean tells Scott that she just got off the phone with Ororo. 
This happens after XM 55, and before X 92. 


Cyclops 
JIM 513 
*UX 376-FB 
X 71 
... 
XM 55 
*UX 376-FB 
X 92 

Phoenix IV 
JIM 513 
*UX 376-FB 
X 71 
... 
XM 55 
*UX 376-FB 
X 92 

David Hall

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 7:06 pm    Post subject: Gambit
By Dhall

The flashback in Gambit3 #25 needs to be added to Remy's listing: 

GAM3 1-FB 
*GAM3 25-FB 
GAM3 19-FB 
GAM3 6-FB 
GAM3 6 
GAM3 23-FB 

David Hall

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:44 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Why there specifically? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:53 pm 
By Dhall

Well from Remy's age, it has to go before Gambit #6 (Remy is 15 in that issue) Since he is a young child in the 25-fb. 

That puts it either before or after the gambit3 19-fb 

The next set of Flashbacks deal with Bella Donna and Remy's wedding. 

It seemed better to put the Gambit 25-Fb, before the Gambit 19-fb since Gambit is very young (and he seems younger here, than in 19-fb), and to keep the 25-fb from being in between a bunch of Bella Donna flashbacks. 

Sure judging Remy's age is an imprecise way of placing this, but it's also the main clue we have. 

Let me know if you have a different placement for this fb. 

David Hall

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I don't have any different ideas -- I just wanted to nudge you to justify your placement in writing.  As it turns out, now that I've seen your reasoning, I agree with your placement. 

It's just like those proofs you used to do in math class. Show your work, kids! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 6:38 am    Post subject: SIBERCAT...SAM SILVERCLOUD...JOE SMITH
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

new entries marked ** 


SIBERCAT/ILLYICH LAVROV 

**XF@ 1 I suggest that the SIBERIAN TIGER in XF@ 1 (1986) is the later SIBERCAT (SSS 1 1992). There are visually similar, have similar capabilities and both follow Father Alexei Garnoff. 
SSS 1 
IM3 9 
IM3 10 

Also: 
. . .GARNOFF, FATHER ALEXEI (currently not in MCP) 

**XF@ 1 
**SSS 1 


SILVERCLOUD, SAM 

GR2 1 
GR2 2 
**M/SPT 12 


SMITH, JOE 

ASM 38 
WTS 1-BTS 
WTS 2 
**WTS 3 
CA 246-FB 


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#171

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:33 pm    Post subject: Elektra #35
By Ant-Man

I just read Elektra #35, and it said that it's been 3 years since Elektra died in Daredevil #181...I though that was interesting...any comments?

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:18 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Being discussed over in the issue analysis forum, actually. 

By the way, did they say it was 3 years SINCE SHE DIED? Or just that it's been three years since ... something Elektra's-death-related? 

Three years since she came back, perhaps? I don't know. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:23 am    
By Ant-Man

Oops! 
Sorry for starting a duplicate thread on a subject (and in the wrong forum, too!)

			*	*	*

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:33 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

S'aight. 

:smile: 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 11:23 am    Post subject: Starjammers
By Dhall

I was looking at UX 391, and I realized that it's flashback is ommitted from some listings..... 

Also for some reason CX 15/2 isn't listed in Raza Longknife's listing. 

CX 15/2 is where Corsair meets the other Starjammers for the first time, so obviously the fb in UX 391, with him and the starjammers fishing, has to be after this.... 

Corsair 
UX 108-Fb 
UX 391-FB 
XF 115-FB 
CX 15/2 
* UX 391-FB (fishing flashback) 
UX 104 

Raza Longknife 
* CX 15/2 
UX 391-FB 
CX 14 
UX 107 

Mam'Selle Hepzibah 
CX 15/2 
*UX 391-FB 
CX 14 

Ch'od 
CX 15/2 
*UX 391-FB 
UX 104 

David Hall

			*	*	*

Thread 30

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 10:37 pm    Post subject: Wolverine corrections
By Dhall

There are some problems with Wolverines chronology, namely that some flashbacks have found their way into the middle of his listing (during the mutant massacre) that belong near the beginning. 


UX 209 
UX 210 
UX@ 10 
UX 211 
PP 27 
W2 10-FB 
UX 213-FB 
UX 268-FB 
W2 34-FB 
NM 46 
UX 212 

Do you see the problem? 
W2 10  Fb should be removed from Wolverines listing, as in W2 50 it is stated that this is a fake memory implant. Sabretooth did NOT kill Silver Fox. Logan is not Sabretooths son. 

UX 268-FB happens during 1941! Not during the mutant massacre! 

UX 213-Fb only shows Logan and Sabretooth fighting, and is pretty generic. However it happens years before the mutant massacre. 

Wolverine 
W2 -1 
AF 52-FB 
W/C 
W/NF-FB 
BFF:BGL 1 
BFF:BGL 2 
BFF:BGL 3 
L:SS 
AF SPECIAL 
W2 119-FB 
W2 120-FB 
W2 121-FB 
W2 126-FB 
**UX 213-FB 
W2 '97-FB 
W2 144-FB 
H2 180 

W2 34-Fb (Neither of the two fbs occur during the mutant massacre) 
One occurs in 1944, one sometime after the war. Both of these are already listed in the MCP, so we just need to remove the incorrect listing during the mutant massacre. 



Also Ive noticed that only one of the three Wolverine flashbacks from W2 126 is listed. 
Presumably the first one. I think it is listed correctly (Seraph saves Vipers life, but Sabreooth kills her.) 

W2 126 FB #2: Occurs early on, right after Wolverine meets Seraph, that puts it BEFORE the Fb in UX 268. Probably after the FB in W2 113. Wolverine was a punk when Seraph found him, and showed him there was more to life. She taught him that actions have consequences. 

Wolverine 
O 1 
O 2 
W2 113-FB 
** W2 126-FB 
**UX 268-FB 
W2 34-FB (1944 fb) 
W2 65-FB 
W2 103-FB 
W2 9-FB-BTS 


W2 126-Fb 3 is also missing from the MCP: Kitty faces Wolverine for the first time in the Danger Room. She phased through his attack, but the molecular structure of his admantium claws was so dense that it hurt. 

This occurs soon after Kitty joins the team, but before Logan teaches her to fight (Xcal 85-fb) 

Shadowcat 
UX 142 
DAZZ 1 
DAZZ 2 
UX 143 
W '95-FB 
**W2 126-FB 
XCAL 85-FB 
UX 144 
ROM 17 
ROM 18 
S-W 37 


Wolverine 
UX 142 
DAZZ 1 
DAZZ 2 
UX 143 
W '95-FB 
**W2 126-FB 
XCAL 85-FB 
UX 144 
M/TU 100 
ROM 17 
ROM 18 
S-W 37 


Dave Hall

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Wolverine corrections
By SeanCurtin

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
W2 10  Fb should be removed from Wolverines listing, as in W2 50 it is stated that this is a fake memory implant. Sabretooth did NOT kill Silver Fox. Logan is not Sabretooths son. 
<<<


Well, later issues in that same arc suggest that something similar to that flashback might have occured (Silver Fox obviously didn't die, and Sabretooth obviously isn't Logan's father). In particular, Wolverine finds the cabin he shared with Silver Fox, and evidence that the pair really did live there. It's likely that the parts of the flashback prior to Sabretooth's appearance actually occured; how much, if any, of the rest of the flashback is a real memory rather than an induced one is uncertain. I think (based on a recent re-reading of Essential Wolverine vol. 1-3) that Wolverine and Silver Fox should definitely have W2 10-FB listed in their respective chronologies; Sabretooth should have an indicator of where this flashback takes place if it's canonical, something like "W2 10-FB (?)". 

-- 
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 11:38 am    
By Dhall

Sean, 
What are you talking about? The "Flashback" in Wolverine 10 starts with Logan walking into a bar holding Silver Fox's dead body. It proceeds to a fight with Sabretooth at the same bar. There are no parts of the fb where SIlver Fox is alive..... 

We have it on irrefutable evidience that this flashback is a memory implant (I don't want to go and dig out Wolverine 48-50 right now, but if I have to I will.) 

Later issues imply (and even show) that (1) the cabin is real, and (2) that Silver Fox and Logan had a relationship in thier pre-Weapon X days. 
There is nothing in them to suggest that the "fb" in Wolv 10 is in part real. 

Again, if you want me to pull out Wolv 48-50 and find the parts where this is all revealed to be a memory implant I will. 

David Hall

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Thread 31

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:45 pm    Post subject: Deadpool 27 and Wolverine '99
By Dhall

Okay, I am re-reading the X-men and I'm up to the Skrullverine era. 

I noticed that W '99 (1st story) is not in the MCP. The second story is, so I presume that we don't need a full issue write up. As far as placement goes, this one comes sometime AFTER Deadpool #27, as Wolverine, (or Wolverine Skrull) is annoyed at Deadpool for what he did to Kitty in Deadpool 27. Now this issue also has a caption box which read 'this story occurs prior to X-Men 90.' (Of course I realize that doesn't necesarily make it so.) 

If we believe the box, then this (and deadpool 27) have to occur before ux 368 (not just X 90) and star the real Wolverine. 

If we ignore the box then we can put this sometime after deadpool 27 in the wolverine skrull's listing. 


I may have more thoughts on this after I read some more Wolverine Skrull issues. 

As far as placement clues in W '99, there is a Daily Bugle with the headline "Are Pesticides Killing Spider-Man?" Does this help to place the issue? 

If a full issue write up is needed, let me know and I can post one in the issue analysis thread. 

Does anyone else have any ideas on where to place W '99? 


Dave Hall

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Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:08 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I suppose it all comes down to what you think his claws are in this story -- bone or metal. 

There's not much to go on either way, but I eventually decided they were metal, and placed the story (along with the second stories in X-Men Unlimited #25 and #26) between X-men #98 and Uncanny #379, and between Wolverine v2 #147 and 149. 

I'm fairly sure that I actually wrote up an issue analysis for this story on the old board. I know that I've at least discussed its placement before. But another write-up couldn't hurt... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:48 pm    
By Dhall

I kind of thought the claws in Xu 25/2 were metal myself. 

Well whichever Wolverine we have in W'99, is the same one as in Deadpool 27. 

Dave Hall

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Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:24 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I kind of thought the claws in Xu 25/2 were metal myself. 
<<<


Me too -- but what about the claws in W2 '99? I'm voting "metal" -- what's your take? 

Quote: 
>>>
Well whichever Wolverine we have in W'99, is the same one as in Deadpool 27. 
<<<


Personally, I try to organize things from that era to ensure that it IS the real Wolverine at all times, if chronologically possible. In my mind, Skrullverine ONLY appeared in those Uncanny, Astonishing, X-Men, Wolverine and Hulk issues where he's already been proven to be. 

Unless the writer's INTENT was that it was Skrullverine, I'd like to try to keep things simple. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:35 am    
By Peter Fabricius

There are clear, to my eyes at least, metallic reflections on the claws in both issues
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:48 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Personally, I try to organize things from that era to ensure that it IS the real Wolverine at all times, if chronologically possible. In my mind, Skrullverine ONLY appeared in those Uncanny, Astonishing, X-Men, Wolverine and Hulk issues where he's already been proven to be. 

Unless the writer's INTENT was that it was Skrullverine, I'd like to try to keep things simple. <<<
 


Amen! 

In W'99 the claws are metal and make a "schlikt!" noise when popped. 

They're also metal in W'99/2 meaning that we need to move that story back too. 

While the claws in W/P Revelations are definilty bone, I see no evidence that this isn't Logan in this story. In the subway tunnels, the creatures identify Logan as a mutant (rather than a skrull)and the caption says that eight weeks have passed sicne the flashback, which seems like more time than passes in the other comics. 

Is it possible to move up this series? 


Dave Hall

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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:23 pm
By Dhall

I've reviewed it yet again, and I wanted to post a comprehensive post on Wolverine '99, and it's placement. 



We have argued back and forth about Wolverine 99 (if it is indeed actually Wolverine or Skrullverine, and where it goes in the listings) and I have some evidence that it is Logan. 

For anyone not familiar with the storyline at this point, for seven months (our time) Wolverine had been replaced by a skrull, as part of Apocalypses plan. 

The issues I will be primarily discussing are: 

Deadpool 27 
Wolverine 99 
And Wolverine 154 

My goal here is to establish once and for all, that the first two issues mentioned contain appearances by the real Logan, and not his Skrull counterpart. Note that all three issues have Wolverine and Deadpool in them. 

Wolverine 154 (This is long after the Skrullverine era, so we know this Logan is the real thing) Logan says to Deadpool Last Time we tangled, things ended on reasonably good terms The box refers readers to Wolverine Annual 99. 

Since Wolverine and Deadpool did part on reasonably good terms at the end of that issue, I am taking this reference to be an actual reference to Wolv 99. As such, that means that the Logan in Wolverine 99 is the real thing (and that Wolv 99 is the last time Logan met Deadpool.) I do not know what other issue this could be a reference to. 

Wolverine 99 : Here it gets a little trickier. First we know that the Wolverine in this issue, is the same as the one in Deadpool 27, as Wolverine slugs Deadpool in the head with a lead pipe, because of what he did to Kitty in that issue (and hes really mad about it.) So if this issue contains the real Wolverine, so does that one. 

Secondly, placement is the problem here, while the editorial box says this story occurs prior to X-Men 90, it cannot, as Logan is drawn with metal claws throughout the story. Since the claws make a metallic sound (A Schlikt! noise) when they are popped, I am going to assume that its not an art error. (Also in one panel, light even glints off the claws) 

Now if it were an art error, and these were bone claws, and if it did take place prior to X-Men 90, this would be still be the Real Wolverine (as he is not replaced by a skrull until AFTER the X-Men return to Earth.) 

Deadpool 27: this is currently listed in the Skrull Wolverine listing, but for the reasons stated above (that it occurs before Wolv 99, yet is referenced by it) this must be the real Wolverine appearing in this issue. 


I have Deadpool 27 listed as such for Wolverine: 
UX 367 
X 87 
PPSM2 4 
*Dpool3 27 
UX 368 

and for Shadowcat: 
X 87 
XU 23 
GAM3 5 
*Dpool3 27 
UX 368 

This issue should be deleted from Skrull Wolverine chronology. 

For Wolverine 99 
If the editorial box is correct, and the art is wrong (about the claws): 
Then this issue would have to come before UX 368. (Right after where I put Dpool3 27 in the above listing) 

If the art (metal claws) is correct, and the editorial box is wrong (my preference.): 

Then this issue would have to occur sometime after the Uncanny X-Men Annual (as this is the first time that Wolverine is available and sane (not Death) and probably before his appearances in XU 26/2, then UX 379. (I am leaving out the Ages of Apocalypse, I will cover that subject in a different post.) 

Wolverine 
UX 377 
UX '99 

(W2 148) 
X 98 
*W2 99 
XU 26/2 
UX 379 
W2 149 
X 99 

Deadpool: 
DPOOL3 36 
DPOOL3 37 
*W2 99 
DPOOL3 38 
DPOOL3 39 

Since we are on the subject, I will also cover the second story in Wolverine 99 

The claws are definitely metal in this story, as they can cut through a car. 

This could go anytime after where I placed the first story, as long as Captain America, She-Hulk, Nick Fury, and the Thing are available for a game of cards. 

If these characters are available, then I would place this as such for Logan: 
*W2 99 
*W2 99/2 
XU 26/2 
UX 379 
W2 149 
X 99 

David Hall

Last edited by Dhall on Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:56 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

David: 

"Schlikt" was the sound Wolvie's BONE claws made. "Snikt" is the traditional metal-claw sound. 

For the record, I agree with you that it's the REAL Logan, with BONE claws, in W2 @'99 -- mainly because of the reference in W2 #154. I disregard the "Schlikt" sound along with the footnote as editorial errors. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:15 pm
By Dhall

Jeph, did you mean that you think the Real Logan in Wolv'99 has Bone claws or metal claws? 

All of the editorial stuff (footnote, sound effect) says Bone, but the art shows metal. We'll have to pick one or the other. I have provided placements for this issue for either scenario. 

Dave H

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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:28 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Hoo-hah. It's typo season! 

I meant METAL claws. Sorry. 

They're DRAWN metal (flat and straight), they're COLORED metal, and they glint in the light. To me, that overrules a "schlikt" sound effect and an editor-added caption box. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 32

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:47 pm    Post subject: Ogun
By Dhall

While I realize W2 169 is not yet in the MCP, I am still going to use it to add some entries to Ogun's listing. 

In W2 169, it is revealed that Ogun has been inhabiting the body of Blok (Mr.X's main henchman) since before Wolverine first met him. 

this means that we have to add the following to Ogun's listing 

KPAOS 3 
*W2 159 
*W2 160 
*W2 161 
*W2 168 

There will also be a Fb in 169, which preceeds #159, but we can add that when W2 169 is put into the MCP proper. 

Dave H

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Thread 33

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:36 pm    Post subject: Ages of Apocalypse
By Dhall

Ages of Apocalypse 
(Sorry this is going to be a long post....) 

A little background. In the Apocalypse: The Twelve Storyline, Apocalypse gathers the Twelve, attempts to use their energies to revitalize himself, and take over X-Mans body. 
Cyclops, however interrupts this merger, by pushing Nate out of the way, and replacing him, thus Apocalypse merges with Scott instead. This is the end of X-Men 97. 

Still present in the room under the pyramid at the end of this issue are: 
Cyclops/Apocalypse 
Cable 
Gambit 
Phoenix IV 
Beast 
Sunfire 
Colossus 
Professor Xavier 
Iceman 
X-Man 
Magneto 
Polaris 
Marrow 
Storm 
Rogue 
Living Monolith 

Fiz and ZCann are also present here, as we see them in the last two pages of UX 378, and we see Fiz in page 20 of X 98. 


(Bishop has already been pulled back to his own series) (Mikhail Rasputin has also hopped dimensions by this time) 

None of the other X-Men are present, as they are off starring in X-51 #7-8, and UX 99 

Now the story continues in a series of visions that are provided by Apocalypse to the characters who are actually present under the pyramid at the time. This is made clear by the ending of both UX 378, and then X-Men 98. 

Ages of Apocalypse takes place in: 
UX 378 
C2 77 
XU 26 
W2 148 
X 98 

Where am I going with this? I am establishing that only the characters that I have listed above are physically present during the ages of apoc storyline. All other characters are illusions created by Apocalypse. 

This means for example, that Wolverine does not, and cannot appear in W2 148 (he is in Genosha fighting Exodus at this time, not in Egypt.) (He is in X 98, but that is back in New York, after the storyline is over.) His 'appearance' in W2 148 is an illusion, just the same as his app in XU 26, or in any other of these issues. 

Also, it means that all of the characters listed above should receive BTS appearances for all 5 of these issues (because they are physically present in the same room, but off-panel) (if they do not appear on panel) and (of course) actual appearances if they do. 

The last two pages of UX 378, occur between Pages 19 and 20 of X 98, after Apocalypse and the Monolith teleport away. 


In pages 15-19 (set in the real world) of X 98, we see: Cyclops/Apocalypse, Monolith (these two teleport away on page 19), Xavier, Phoenix, Gambit, Storm, Colossus, Beast, Marrow, Cable. 

In the last two pages of UX 378, in the real world, we see: Phoenix, Storm, Beast, Magneto, Rogue, Sunfire, Xavier, X-Man, Fiz, Zcann, another skrull, Gambit, Colossus, and perhaps Polaris. 

In Page 20(outside the pyramid) of X 98, we see: Cable, Phoenix, Storm, Colossus, Xavier, Polris, Magneto, Sunfire, Marrow, X-Man, Iceman,and Fiz. 

Note: Wolverine, Shadowcat, and Nightcrawler do appear in X 98, but back in New York after the Ages of Apocalypse storyline has ended.) 

David H

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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:11 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

It's the Dave Hall and Jeph York X-Men Variety Show today, I guess. 

Quote: 
>>>
only the characters that I have listed above are physically present during the ages of apoc storyline. All other characters are illusions created by Apocalypse. This means for example, that Wolverine does not, and cannot appear in W2 148 ... His 'appearance' in W2 148 is an illusion 
<<<

I posted something to this effect many moons ago. I'm glad I'm not the only one who caught that little detail! 

Quote: 
>>>
The last two pages of UX 378, occur between Pages 19 and 20 of X 98, after Apocalypse and the Monolith teleport away. 
<<<

That's not how I read it ... I took that ending, just like the similar ending to Cable #77, to mean that the X-Men broke out of Apoc's illusion and found themselves in the Chamber of the Twelve -- only to have Apoc cast ANOTHER illusion in time for the start of the next issue. The last two pages of UX #378 occured right after they broke his first illusion, and then he cast another one, which ensnared them again -- and we pick up in Cable #77. They break out of THAT one, and he casts a third -- which presumably remains unbroken for all of XU #26, W2 #148, and most of X #98. 

And honestly -- given that the third illusory reality did remain unbroken, and lasted 100 years (in X #98 we see Apoc essentially "rewinding" it back to the beginning), I'm tempted to believe that it played out in a larger space than just inside the Chamber of the Twelve. Someone notes in X #98 that "the vast bulk of Apoc now exists outside time and space" ... I'd take that to mean that all of these illusory realities played out inside a tesseract, a large infinite space *connected* to our world through Apoc and the Chamber of the Twelve -- but existing outside of it. 

What I'm leading up to is, if the third reality took place inside an enormous space, there's no reason to assume that the characters that we know are in the illusion -- are actually RIGHT THERE, cloaked by the illusion just off-panel. 

I propose that the ONLY character who gets an appearance for W2 #148 is Cyclops/Apocalypse -- and a BTS at that. He created the world we're seeing -- but you can't prove that the X-Men are actually *experiencing* that *particular* portion of it. 

Ditto any characters that don't appear in XU #26. Yes, they're SOMEWHERE inside the illusion -- but are they experiencing THAT PART of it? 

-Jeph!

Last edited by jephyork on Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:36 am    
By Dhall

heh, when I see some on-panel evidence for a tesseract, then I'll buy taht one. :very happy:

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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 3:53 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Well, let's see. 

The notion that Apocalypse just cast an illusion into the X-Men's heads, leaving them sitting around the Chamber of the Twelve thinking they were somewhere else -- that can't work. Because the third timeshift lasts 100 years -- and it LITERALLY lasts 100 years. At the end of it, Apoc rewinds that reality, absorbing "a century's worth" of their energies all at once. So the argument that the X-Men just THOUGHT it had been 100 years doesn't work. 

So, if the third illusion really lasted 100 years, then the X-Men must have been ACTIVE participants -- if they were just sitting around the Chamber of the Twelve for 100 years, thinking they were doing other stuff, they would have starved to death. 

So it wasn't an illusion, it was an actual reality manipulation. (The fact that Apoc is capable of time manipulation within his illusory world indicates that he was probably capable of reality manipulation too.) 

So -- there are three choices for the space in which the reality manipulation occured. 

- Reality was altered inside the Chamber of the Twelve only. 
- Apoc actually changed the entire world for 100 years, then changed it back 
- Apoc shunted the X-Men to some other space outside reality, and set up his illusory world there. 

You seem to think that the illusion was limited to the Chamber -- that even if we can't see the X-Men on-panel, they must be RIGHT THERE, hidden by the illusion -- since they were all there in the room where the illusion was cast. 

But if the phony world was only the size of the Chamber, the X-Men surely would have bumped into the walls every now and then -- since they were ACTIVE participants in the scenario. (Remember all those Star Trek episodes where people got trapped in the Holodeck?) 

Plus, in X #98 when Apoc rewinds his illusion -- the X-Men wind up OUTSIDE the Chamber, in the desert. So they definitely weren't in the Chamber for the *entirety* of the third illusion... 

So, either Apoc changed the entire world, or he created his own. 

In X #98, they note that "the vast bulk of what Apocalypse has become now exists outside time and space" -- so he'd have had (a) plenty of room to set up a phony reality, and (b) easy access to it. So both scenarios are viable. 

If Apoc changed the entire world -- then the other characters we see in XU #26 and W2 #148 ARE the real ones, as the entire planet is now participating in Apoc's illusions. 

And if Apoc created a new world "outside time and space" -- then Wolvie in W2 #148 is an illusion, as we both think -- BUT, since the created world is the size of a real one, there's no way of claiming that the other X-Men are RIGHT THERE, just off-panel and cloaked by illusion. For all we know, they could be on the other side of that fictional planet, and nowhere close enough by to qualify for a BTS. 

Personally, I'd vote for the latter option. 

Your thoughts? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 5:28 pm    
By Dhall

Jeph, I still think that it is all a mental illusion, taking place inside the heads of the X-Men. If Apoc's intent is to absorb the X-Men's energies, then why would he want to expend the energy drain needed to cast an illusion taking place over an entire world, let alone change space and time, when he could get the same effect by casting a mental illusion into the minds of the X-Men, and saying that it lasted 100 years? It didn't really last 100 years, that was part of the illusion, and the X-Men seem to come to that realization, and wake up in minutes. (Sure we had to sit through it all, and it seems like 100 years long when you read it...) 

I realize that the nature of the plot here is not well defined and is going to cause us some problems.... 

Dave H

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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 8:17 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I realize that the nature of the plot here is not well defined and is going to cause us some problems.... 
<<<


I agree. I'd also venture to say that it doesn't MATTER... 

What it comes down to, in my mind, is this: 

Since we can't PROVE that the other X-Men trapped in the illusory world ARE, in fact, directly off-panel ... then they *shouldn't* get a BTS appearance for XU #26 and W2 #148. 

If a time ever comes when we're able to prove that they ARE right there, and it IS just an illusion planted in their heads ... THEN we'll amend the MCP to give them BTSes. 

Until then, however, I'd like to use caution and restraint when we analyse comics, and try as hard as possible not to add *speculative* data to the MCP. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 10:58 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Until then, however, I'd like to use caution and restraint when we analyse comics, and try as hard as possible not to add *speculative* data to the MCP.  
<<<


That is the goal, and it sounds good to me. 

Dave H

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Thread 34

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:46 pm    Post subject: New Mutants (2) # 11 is out...
By ShadZ

... And it established that this whole series happens AFTER the Riot in New X-Men 

I don't remember where we were on placing NM. Does this help or hurt?
_________________
ShadZ

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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:50 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Nope, it's all good so far. We've got issue #1 placed after X #141 right now. 

The only hurdle I saw was that, when Laurie initially enrolled at Xavier's, he was walking -- making it after X #126 -- and yet issue #2 established she'd been there since "last year". 

Other than that ... jeez, Longest Recap Ever. But hey, at least we finally got solid confirmation that Reverend Craig is Rahne's father. And witnessed her conception. Ew. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:43 am 
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
But hey, at least we finally got solid confirmation that Reverend Craig is Rahne's father. 
<<<


Actually, we got direct confirmation of that in an issue of Excalibur around #104-106. 

-Sean

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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:28 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I remember it being heavily implied in #93 ... is that what you're thinking of, or was there another mention of it in #104-106 that I'm forgetting? 

-Jeph!

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Thread 35

Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 4:15 pm    Post subject: Identity changes in recent X-books (SPOILERS!)
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

So: 

- MAVERICK became AGENT ZERO in "Weapon X: the Draft - Agent Zero". I would count this issue as both his last apperance as Maverick, as well as his first as Agent Zero. 

- BOLT II became MAVERICK II in Weapon X v2 #6 (last seen as Bolt II in this past week's WX #21-FB, and before that in MAXSEC 3). He appeared as Maverick II in WX2 #6-13 and #19-21, and died in #21. 

- According to preview pages for NXM #156, the final Stepford Cuckoo is named "Mindee", giving us: 

STEPFORD CUCKOOS v01 - PHOEBE 
STEPFORD CUCKOOS v02 - ESME 
STEPFORD CUCKOOS v03 - CELESTE 
STEPFORD CUCKOOS v04 - MINDEE 
STEPFORD CUCKOOS v05 - SOPHIE 

(See this thread for an explanation of my rationale for the Cuckoo's numbering.) 

"Mindee". Fantastic name. Hooray for Chuck Austen. 

- And finally, if Chuck's going where I think he's going, Cassandra Nova and Stuff may not have become Ernst after all (see this thread). Dollars to donuts, X #156 features a cackling Cassandra Nova attacking Cyclops and the Beast with painfully purple prose, destroying one of the weirder "Y is actually X in disguise!" bits that pepper Grant Morrison's run. Hooray for Chuck Austen. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 36

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 11:03 am    Post subject: Mister Sinister; X-Factor Annual#1.....
By Scathach80

It turns out that X-Factor Annual#1 will have to be added to Mister Sinister's chronology. Why? See below 

I looked at High Evolutionary profile in 
the X-Men Encyclopedia. It states: 

"Beginning life as Herbert Wyndham, an Oxford University student in the 1930s, the High Evolutionary first built a machine capable of accelerating the genetic evolutionof living organisms thanks to information provided by Mr Sinister." 

So that shows that Mister Sinister was that bundled up stranger in that X-Factor back-up.

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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:12 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I wouldn't trust these new Marvel Encyclopedias as far as I could throw them. They're mostly written by fans (Eric Moreels from X-Fan). 

Didn't UX #379-380 and X #99 establish that Sinister HADN'T worked with the High Evolutionary before? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:26 pm    Post subject: As Essex, Sinister knew Wyndham from university days
By Scathach80

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/article/showquestion.asp?faq=4&fldAuto=68&page=3 

Silver Surfer Annual#1/4 should be added to Sinister's appearances, because the bundled up Stranger appears there as well.

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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:27 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Didn't UX #379-380 and X #99 establish that Sinister HADN'T worked with the High Evolutionary before?  
<<<


As I recall off the top of my head, they established that Sinister had worked with the Evolutionary in the past, but it did not establish that he was the mysterious stranger who contacted the Evolutionary. (It didn't establish that he wasn't either to my recollection, but that's not proof of anything.) 

Dave H

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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:52 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

John, the very page you linked to says: 

Quote: 
>>>
*While this is mere speculation* it is quite possible, even likely, that Wyndham was aided by the maniacal Mister Sinister. 
<<<

Note the "mere speculation" part. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:37 pm    Post subject: I wanted to draw your attention to the fact.......
By Scathach80

I wanted to draw your attention to the fact that Essex had worked with Wyndham before the modern era, which this page shows. 

I was not using the page in question as my source for Mister Sinister-as-the-bundled-up stranger from those Evolutionary War back-ups. 

For that, I was relying on the X-Men Encyclopedia. I wanted to show, however, that the X-Men Encyclopedia's revelation did not contradict the published stories.

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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:38 pm    Post subject: On the contrary, the established...
By Scathach80

"Didn't UX #379-380 and X #99 establish that Sinister HADN'T worked with the High Evolutionary before?" 

On the contrary, they established that he had worked with Wyndham in his pre-High Evolutionary days. So, this revelation from the X-Men Encyclopedia contradicts nothing.

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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:43 pm    
jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Sigh. 

"...except for a man named Essex, with whom he VERY WELL MAY HAVE interacted." 

More speculation and non-confirmation. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:00 pm    Post subject: No disrespect intended, but......
By Scathach80

I was not using that webpage as the source, I was using the X-Men Encyclopedia. I wanted to show that the X-Men Encyclopedia did not contradict a published story. 

(I admit to not having those X-Men issues, but I am pretty sure that no writer would have gone to the trouble of showing a photograph of Mister Sinister looking over the future High Evolutionary's shoulder for no reason.) 

In any event, this ties into an earlier topic; 
http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=78 
"A better question would be how much weight do we extend to information gleaned from Marvel, but not in the stories themselves?" 

To which Mr. Paul O'Brien said: "My view on the Handbook is that, as long as it's actually consistent with the stories themselves, it applies. If it's not consistent with the stories, then it's in error. 

Basically, it's authoritative when it comes to resolving ambiguities and filling in gaps."

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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:21 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Good point, and good quote from Paul. However-- 

He's referring to the original handbooks, written by folks like Mark Gruenwald that *worked for Marvel as a comic writer*. 

This new crop of handbooks seems to have mostly been written by folks from the ComiX-Fan website. 

I trust Mark Gruenwald ... I'm not so sure I trust Eric Moreels. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:15 am    
By Starman

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
"...except for a man named Essex, with whom he VERY WELL MAY HAVE interacted." 

More speculation and non-confirmation. 

-Jeph! 
<<<


Well, the dialogue between Dr. Essex/Mr. Sinister and High Evolutionary seems to support that they worked together a colleagues, and the story does state in a text-box that Wyndham (High Evolutionary) learned more from Essex's theories about genetic medicin than what his course books could offer. This makes it not so unlikely that it could have been Mr. Sinister that was the stranger, but it hasn't to my knowledge been confirmed yet, and might never be. Unfortunately not all mysterious plot threads gets resolved in the Marvel Universe. But I like the idea of Mr. Sinister having been Wyndham's mysterious benefactor.
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:58 am    Post subject: Again, I was proposing that if
By Scathach80

I was proposing that if these recent Marvel Encyclopedias contain new information that does not contradict the published stories, but clarifies or explains them, then their revelations should be accepted.

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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Again, I was proposing that if
By Starman

Yes, I agree with that proposal. But that's just me, what does the rest of the MCP forum members think? *being curious*
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:31 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'd like to know if Marvel editorial feels bound by revelations in the Encyclopedia, before expressing an opinion. 


watching: fast times at ridgemont high

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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:23 pm    Post subject: Marvel Encyclopedia
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

We've relied heavily on Marvel-published reference books before -- the Official Marvel Indexes come to mind. Heck, we've even used independently published Olshevsky books to help with chronological placement. What's different about the Marvel Encyclopedia? If Marvel publishes a reference work, I think we should put some stock in it. Granted, there are bound to be mistakes and inconsistencies, and when those occur the tip of the hat should go to the published stories (except, of course, when errors are acknowledged in them). But unless contradicted elsewhere, I don't see the harm in using information from the Encyclopedia.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:40 pm    
By Dhall

Here's a question. What do we do when information that is published in a story directly contridicts material in other stories? (I'm not talking about retcons, etc. I'm talking about out and out cases where a writer hasn't done their research.) 

Dave H

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Thread 37

Posted: 17 Apr 2004 07:10 pm    Post subject: Olshevsky question
By Scathach80

Someone once wrote: 

"We've relied heavily on Marvel-published reference books before -- the Official Marvel Indexes come to mind. Heck, we've even used independently published Olshevsky books to help with chronological placement. What's different about the Marvel Encyclopedia?" 

Does this mean that the 1970's Olshevsky Indexes were not officially approved by Marvel?

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Apr 2004 08:20 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

That's what it means, yes. 


watching: dave the barbarian

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Posted: 17 Apr 2004 09:23 pm    Post subject: Olshevsky
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

A note from "someone"... 

Olshevsky's "unofficial" early indexes were published by G&T Enterprises of Toronto. Material for the indexes was used with the permission of Marvel, but that's as far as Marvel's involvement went.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 38

Posted: 17 Apr 2004 09:40 am    Post subject: Spider man and Captain America chronology corrections
By Ian Rusten

In the Index to Marvel Team Up Vol 6, it stated that SM appeared in MTU 102, immediately after his appearance in Dazzler 2 and right before Peter Parker 53. Your Chronology Project states that Dazzler 2 takes place right after ASM 203, this appears to be incorrect. In Captain America 251, Cap states that the Cobra's escape from prison (shown in PPTSSM 46) took place a week ago. So your Chronology that lists Cap as appearing in Dazzler 1 and 2 inbetween CA 250 and 251 must also be wrong. Most likely CA appears in Dazzler 1 and 2 after CA 252- at the same time as his app in Hulk Ann 11. Also Spiderman appears in CA 250 after MTU 95, this affects the chronologies you have for JJJ and Joe Robertson- both of whom appear in CA 250. JJJ's app in CA 250 should be listed as following ASM 198 and preceding his app in PPTSSM 40.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Apr 2004 01:52 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

What?

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Posted: 17 Apr 2004 04:09 pm    Post subject: I am saying that the chronology needs to be fixed
By Ian Rusten

In your chronology, Dazzler 1 and 2 (in which Spiderman appears) take place right after ASM 203, but according to Olshevsky's Marvel Team Up index 6- published by Marvel some years ago- Spiderman's app in Dazzler 1 and 2 takes place later- in fact before his app in MTU 102 and PPSSM 53. This affects other chronologies- since many marvel characters appear in Dazzler 1 and 2

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Apr 2004 08:16 am    Post subject: Index references
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

This is an example in which Official Marvel Index references contradict one another, and our general rule of thumb is to accept the most recently published reference. Why? Because Olshevsky's indexes were works in progress. Lists of errata in subsequent issues of any given index and corrections made in subsequent index series testify to that fact. 

In the case you mention, the Official Marvel Index to Marvel Team-Up #6 (published July 1987) notes that Spidey's last appearance before M/TU 102, a story that occurs in May, was DAZZ 2. However, the errata listing in the Official Index to the X-Men #5 (published August 1994) notes that the X-Men appeared in DAZZ 1-2 between UX 142 and UX 143, the latter being a Christmas story. And if you look at the Official Marvel Index to the X-Men #3 (June 1994), you'll see that M/TU 100 occurs after UX 144. 
Thus, Spidey must appear in DAZZ 1-2 before M/TU 100, so it's not his last appearance before M/TU 102. My conclusion is that further research caused Olshevsky to move DAZZ 1-2 back on the calendar several months. 

Also, IIRC, there is a reference in DAZZ 1 to that issue occurring "shortly" after ASM 203.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 39

Posted: 18 Apr 2004 07:15 am    Post subject: THING...THOG..."FLASH" THOMPSON
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

new entries marked ** 


THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM 

A@ 12 
**M/TALES 198/2 
FF 251 


THOG 

Thog is not easily identifiable in MGK2 3, so I cannot state with assuredness that these are the same Thog. But then again, no reason to think otherwise either 

**AIF 11 (as the Netherspawn) 
**M-T 1 (Netherspawn) 
**M-T 22-FB (10p2-11p2) 
**M-T 21 (31) referred to as Thog, the Netherspawn 
**M-T 22-FB (22p1-30p5) 
**M-T2 11-FB (almost the whole story is FB (pgs 3-28) Thog appears on pgs 19-27) 
**DEF 99 (pg 21) 
**DEF 100 
MGK2 3 



THOMPSON, EUGENE "FLASH" 

**PPTSSSS 1/2-FB This is the second of three flashbacks, all of which precede WOSM@ 5/3 in Spideys chronology. 
WOSM@ 5/3 


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#172

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Posted: 18 Apr 2004 01:50 pm    Post subject: Well, thank you Arthur for bringing up Thog, because.......
By Scathach80

It turns out that Thog actually already has had his origin told. 

Doctor Strange Annual#2/2 revealed that Thog, Mephisto, and Satannish were created from energy left over after the Demogorge slew the Elder Gods. Over time, this energy formed into new demons. Most people missed this bit of data because it was in one of those "top ten villains" back-ups; this information is revealed by Rintrah as he is discussing Doctor Strange's enemies with some other people. 

There was earlier a one-panel flashback that established in Doctor Strange III#8 that had given a glimpse of this birth of the demons. Since Thog, as revealed in Doctor Strange Annual#2/2, was one of those demons, he can be considered behind the scenes in that issue. 

I am quite aware, by the way, that Satannish's was later revealed to be a creation of Dormammu, but this origin from Doctor Strange III#8 is still, as far as I know, valid for Thog and Mephisto. 

THOG 

*DRSTR3 8-FB-BTS 
**AIF 11 (as the Netherspawn) 
**M-T 1 (Netherspawn) 
**M-T 22-FB (10p2-11p2) 
**M-T 21 (31) referred to as Thog, the Netherspawn 
**M-T 22-FB (22p1-30p5) 
**M-T2 11-FB (almost the whole story is FB (pgs 3-28) Thog appears on pgs 19-27) 
**DEF 99 (pg 21) 
**DEF 100 
MGK2 3

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Thread 40

Posted: 19 Apr 2004 12:33 pm    Post subject: Planet X and New York City Question
By Sidewinder

I read the majority of the X-books, but currently don't read any of the other Marvel Universe books. I'm curious, have the events of the "Planet X" storyline (from New X-Men) been seen/felt in other Marvel Books? I mean, Magneto wasted all of New York, I would figure it would be mentioned in all of the Main Marvel books. What about Spiderman? Did he have any indirect connection to these events? 

Thanks in advance for the information. 

Sidewinder 
http://www.christophergiles.com

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Posted: 19 Apr 2004 02:06 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Hasn't been mentioned anywhere else, but some of the Avengers were shown helping clean it up in Uncanny #442... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 19 Apr 2004 07:29 pm    
By Sidewinder

Thanks for the info. I was so sure that "Here Comes Tomorrow" would negate all of "Planet X", but as we now all know, it didn't. I just really don't like the idea that New York got beat to a pulp and it's not been referenced anywhere but the X-books.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Apr 2004 08:09 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I thought the same thing too. Boo hiss, proved wrong. ::cries:: 

Hey, the UN was destroyed and Washington was nuked in the Avengers' Kang War and it wasn't mentioned anywhere else. Heck, the UN was shown meeting in FF, and the White House was shown in X-Treme X-Men, around the same time period. 

We dealt with that. We'll deal with this. It's all good here at the MCP. :smile:

-Jeph!

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Posted: 20 Apr 2004 01:21 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

It's just a convention of the Marvel Universe that nothing, no matter how serious, has lasting effects. Everything gets rebuilt, and even if the other titles HAD mentioned Magneto's takeover of New York, they would only have done it once before forgetting about it altogether. 

(The exception, of course, is 9/11, for reasons that have more to do with real-world attitudes than internal consistency.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 41

Posted: 20 Apr 2004 07:12 pm    Post subject: Jean Grey and Prof. X in Classic X-Men #43
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Jean Grey and Prof. X appear in a new flashback scene, not listed in the MCP, in CX #43/2. 

The first page of the story -- about the Phoenix Force-as-Jean showing up in the afterlife and having a chat with Death -- shows five scenes from Phoenix's memory. (Meaning, the Phoenix's stolen memories of Jean's life.) Four of the five are scenes we've seen before ... but the second scene is all-new. 

This new scene shows a young Jean using her TK to battle an off-panel opponent, while Prof. X and an unidentified woman hide in an alley. The artwork suggests Jean is stopping bullets, but it's unclear. 

The caption describing the scene reads: "A little older [than the previous FB, to Annie Richardson's death in BIZADV 27-FB], fighting as fiercely [as then] to save her mentor, Professor Charles Xavier." 

Jean is out of costume, and a reference to being only "a little older" than when Annie died suggests that this is before her X-Men days. 

I recently wrote up a complete redo of Jean's pre-UX #1 appearances in the "Wedding of Scott and Jean" thread. I was initially unsure where exactly to place this FB in that period, but I stumbled across a line in UX #381 that might help clarify things. In that issue, Jean is showing Cable a subterrenean cavern beneath Venice, filled with treasure. She says she discovered it "before the founding of the X-Men, during a time when Charles Xavier and I worked alone." 

Now, we've never seen a time like that. Sure, Jean lived at the mansion while he was suppressing her telepathy and tutoring her in using her telekinesis, but there was never a time period where they globe-hopped and adventured together in places like Venice. 

Unless that's what we're seeing in this CX #43/2 flashback. 

If that's what this FB is -- young Jean fighting fiercely to save Prof. X during a time when they globe-hopped and worked alone together -- then I propose it be placed here: 


MARVEL GIRL / JEAN GREY SUMMERS 
BIZADV 27-FB (pp.4-5)  Jean is in shock from Annie's death. 
X:WA-FB (diary entry #1)  Prof. X brings Jean back to consciousness in the hospital. 
X:WA-FB (diary entry #2)  Jean lives in the mansion and begins learning about her mutation. 
BIZADV 27-FB (p.6 panel 1)  Prof. X begins training Jean in TK. 
UX 273-FB (moved up from below)  Prof. X introduces Jean to Cerebro. 
CX 42/2 (moved up from below)  Jean meets Scott through Cerebro. 
X:WA-FB (diary entry #3)  Jean writes about meeting Scott mentally. 
UX 1  Jean, age 11, is cured and living back at home. 
**CX 43/2-FB  Jean Grey fights to defend Prof. X during an unexplored time when they adventured together. 
XMF 3  Jean is a freshman in high school. 
XMF 4  continues from XMF #3. 
UX 322-FB  the day Jean leaves to join the X-Men. 
UX 1 (p.1-p.8 panel 2)  Jean arrives in a taxi. 
... 


PROFESSOR X / CHARLES XAVIER 
 
X:WA-FB (diary entry #1)  Prof. X brings Jean back to consciousness in the hospital. 
X:WA-FB (diary entry #2)  Jean lives in the mansion and begins learning about her mutation. 
BIZADV 27-FB  Prof. X begins training Jean in TK. 
UX 273-FB  Prof. X introduces Jean to Cerebro. 
-(X: WEDDING ALBUM 1-FB)  should be moved to below CX #42/2. 
CX 42/2  Jean meets Scott through Cerebro. 
X:WA-FB (diary entry #3)  Jean writes about meeting Scott mentally. 
**CX 43/2-FB  Jean Grey fights to defend Prof. X during an unexplored time when they adventured together. 
UX 38/2 
... 


I initially thought the woman with Xavier in the FB might be Moira, but UX #381 says that Jean and Xavier worked ALONE during this period -- so there's no way to assume that the woman is anyone at all -- she might simply be a new character Jean and Xavier meet in that untold story. If Claremont ever comes back to this period in Jean and Xavier's lives, and identifies the woman, we'll go from there. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 42

Posted: 18 Apr 2004 05:17 pm    Post subject: JLA/Avengers
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Kurt Busiek has confirmed on Usenet that JLA/AVENGERS is canon. 

==== 

The JLA/Avengers crossover was originally supposed to be in issues of the actual JLA and Avengers series, but for presumably legal reasons they decided that was not possible. 

No, it was never supposed to be in issues of JLA and AVENGERS. That was a suggestion Mark Waid and I made, but it was not ever taken up as a practical idea. 

So yeah...it's in continuity. 

That, on the other hand, it is. 

==== 

In response to another post, arguing that the series isn't canon because it has never been referred to in any other Marvel comic, Busiek replies that "It's coming."
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 18 Apr 2004 09:03 pm    Post subject: JLA/Avengers
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Well, that's a relief, considering I've made room for it in the calendar. :very happy:
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Apr 2004 03:17 pm    
By Dhall

Would it be possible to have a statment in the faq, explaining why certain marvel/other company crossovers are considered cannon, and certain other ones are not? I know what the answer is, but a newcomer to the MCP would probably be confused as to why JLA/Avengers (or Marvel vs. DC) is cannon, and say X-Men/Teen Titans isn't. 

By the way, has the MCP ever made a ruling about X-Men/Wildcats, or other Marvel/Image books? Are those cannon? (I've never read them, and have no interest in buying non-cannon X-stuff.) 

Dave H

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Posted: 20 Apr 2004 04:36 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Most of the Marvel/Image stuff I know of falls into the "we all exist on the same world" camp -- making it squarely non-canon. 

X-Force/Youngblood and Youngblood/X-Force are a notable exception, though -- and Mojo, the villain from both, also shows up in Youngblood v2 #10 in a prologue. Those would all be considered canon. 

Ditto the Marvel/Top Cow "Devil's Reign" books -- those also treat the two universes as separate. 

I'd have to check the rest, though. Off the top of my head, I can say that Badrock/Wolverine, X-Men/WildCATs and Team X/Team 7 all take place in "universe X-over" -- as will the upcoming Witchblade/Wolverine one-shot. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 20 Apr 2004 05:37 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

And Deathblow/Wolverine. Gorgeous comic, though. Until halfway through issue #2 when the fill-in art kicks in. Still, if you ever see issue #1 in a quarter bin... 

Yeah, anyway - the basic rule of thumb for these things seems pretty clear by now, I think. If the characters are shown travelling between universes, it's intended as canon. Otherwise, it isn't. It does lead to the interesting situation where Youngblood has to be included in the MCP - but if Marvel authorised it, then so be it.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 20 Apr 2004 07:44 pm    Post subject: NOOOOOO!
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I am NOT doing a chronology for the Extreme Universe. :very mad:

You raise a good point, though -- a proper inclusion of inter-company crossover books in the MCP would have to actually include the other company's characters. 

So, let me nip this in the bud -- I do NOT advocate building a COMPLETE chronology for each of these characters. Just because Batman appears in Avengers/JLA, and Avengers/JLA is included on the MCP, that doesn't mean we have to build and maintain a complete Batman chronology. This is, after all, the MARVEL Chronology Project. 

I say we start a separate page for characters owned by other companies -- a sub-page, like the 2099 or Killraven one -- and on that page, we ONLY list the characters' appearances in CANON ISSUES THAT CROSS OVER WITH MARVEL. 

For example, Batman's listing would look like: 

BATMAN / BRUCE WAYNE 
... 
DC vs Marvel 1 
Marvel vs DC 2 
Marvel vs DC 3 
DC vs Marvel 4 
... 
JLA/Avengers 1 
Avengers/JLA 2 
JLA/Avengers 3 
Avengers/JLA 4 
... 

And Youngblood's Shaft would look like: 

SHAFT / JEFFREY TERRELL 
... 
Youngblood v2 10 
Youngblood/X-Force 
X-Force/Youngblood 
... 

In my examples above, the ellipses indicate where the non-Marvel characters' chronologies veer off into their non-Marvel (and non-Marvel-crossover) books -- books the MCP doesn't consider relevant. 

A page (or series of pages, one for each company) like this would serve to fulfill the MCP's purpose of *complete* listings for each book we deem canon -- without causing us to bend our "Marvel" mission statement and start listing DC and Image characters in full... 

Thoughts? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 20 Apr 2004 08:25 pm    Post subject: Malibu?
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

We've probably discussed this before, but how about Malibu Universe characters? I would propose Jeph's model of strictly cross-over books, at least to begin with. But we might eventually opt for complete listings (if no other sites have done so), simply because that universe was relatively short-lived and actually was "administered" by Marvel in the end.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Apr 2004 11:33 pm    
By John Simons

I like Jeph's idea of shortened chronology lists for crossover characters, although I would suggest lengthening the example by one book before and after, to show where the character appears within the context of his own universe's books. Another idea might be to link the character to his full chronology page on the DCU chronology site. 

As for the Malibu characters-- or for that matter the New Universe, which was brought into the Marvel multiverse in the pages of Quasar-- is there a difference between these characters and such alternate-Earth characters who are already listed in the MCP, such as the Squadron Supreme, or Mutant X characters? I'm not necessary arguing that there isn't, I'm just throwing the question out there. 

For example, Hyperion's listing doesn't just cover his appearences on Earth-616, but those on his home Earth as well. Although Malibu and the New Universe started out as completely independent lines, didn't they become part of the Marvel tapestry once Marvel characters began to interact with them?

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Posted: 21 Apr 2004 03:25 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Malibu and the New Universe are in a slightly different position, because these are universes which were brought into the MU orbit and have effectively been relegated to the status of "alternate Earth." The New Universe Earth, in fact, now literally exists within the Marvel Universe, doesn't it? 

My inclination would be that, ultimately, all New Universe and Malibu characters should be included in the MCP, just as Heroes Reborn characters and people from alternate futures are listed. Possibly they might get their own subsections a la Killraven.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 21 Apr 2004 04:36 am    
By Starman

Quote: 
>>>
I like Jeph's idea of shortened chronology lists for crossover characters, although I would suggest lengthening the example by one book before and after, to show where the character appears within the context of his own universe's books. Another idea might be to link the character to his full chronology page on the DCU chronology site. 
<<<


I do like this idea of shortened chronology lists with one book before and after. 

I do also like the idea of linking the DC characters to the DCU chronology site, where one can find the rest of the characters chronology, though I guess we might have to ask first. :wink:
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

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Posted: 21 Apr 2004 10:35 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I'd just as soon not bother with the "one book before and after", for a few reasons: 

1) We'd have to put these other books -- other companies' titles -- into the Key. That's more of a concession into our "Marvel" mission statement than I'd like. 

2) It might be a big help for the DCU characters, since there's a DC Chronology Project they can reference ... but it won't do our readers any good to know that, say, Shaft appears in Youngblood/X-Force between "Knightstrike" #2 and "Extreme Destroyer: Prologue". The information won't help them at all, since there's no Image/Extreme/Mamimum/Awesome chronology page out there. 

3) We'd have to *do the work*, and figure out where in the other company's continuity each of these appearances goes. Again, this would be a bigger deal for the Image characters than the DC ones -- there's no functioning Image chronology we can work from, and I really don't feel like slogging through Rob Liefeld's books to determine the last time and next time we see Riptide. 

Just acknowledging that these other companies' characters' appearances are canon is a big step for us. I don't think anyone is going to come to the MARVEL Chronology Project looking for information on what order to read their Extreme Studios books. 

-Jeph! 
(bonus points to anyone who can tell me why Shaft CAN'T appear between the two issues I referenced, by the way...)

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Posted: 21 Apr 2004 10:48 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

And the whole continuity of Image is a mess anyway - despite the best efforts of SHATTERED IMAGE to provide an in-story explanation, Earth-Image is a bizarre example of a continuity that's splintered into multiple, completely unrelated universes. At least three of which have separately interacted with the Marvel Universe, come to think of it!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 21 Apr 2004 10:53 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Also, notes on Malibu... 

The difference between the New Universe and Malibu is that the NU was created in-house by Marvel. And, since the NU Earth is now oribiting the Strangers's planet, the characters now exist IN the Marvel Universe. 

By contrast, the Malibu characters were created by an entirely different company -- and only BOUGHT by Marvel. Also, while they've visited the MU, the Malibu characters still live in a separate dimension. 

Seeing as how Malibu had such a small overall output, I don't see any real harm in deciding to eventually include full chronologies for every Malibu character -- hopefully on a "Malibu" sub-page -- but I wanted to point out that you really can't equate the Malibu situation with the New Universe situation. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 21 Apr 2004 11:01 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
despite the best efforts of SHATTERED IMAGE to provide an in-story explanation, Earth-Image is a bizarre example of a continuity that's splintered into multiple, completely unrelated universes. 
<<<

Wow, someone else besides me remembers Shattered Image! God, what a mess. Even though the point of the story was to split the earths, Liefeld's characters were messily edited out of #3-4, and thanks to Silvestri's last-second reversal, the Top Cow characters RE-appeared on Image-Earth -- indicated by dialogue balloons only -- in the final panel of #4. 

Not Kurt Busiek's finest hour. At least Alan Moore had a better time of it in the "Judgment Day" series when he revealed that the entire Extreme/Maximum/Awesome Universe was the fiction of an angry young man. Nicely done, Moore. 

Quote: 
>>>
At least three of which have separately interacted with the Marvel Universe, come to think of it! 
<<<

Okay, I'll bite -- Top Cow, Extreme, and ... I assume you mean WildStorm, but I can't think of any canon crossovers they've produced. At least, not what we'd consider canon. Am I right? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 21 Apr 2004 12:10 pm    
By Dhall

Regarding Malibu 

1) Does Marvel still own the rights? 

2) What evidence do we have that any Malibu comics without Marvel characters in them, are considered Marvel canon? 

3) Obviously, we need to add the ones that do have Marvel comics to the MCP. (And anything else that we determine is cannon.) 

Thanks! 

Dave H

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Posted: 21 Apr 2004 12:24 pm    
By John Simons

Well, Marvel bought Malibu outright, so unless they sold the characters again (which I think we would have read about in the comics press) they still own them. 

In the case of Malibu, Marvel characters didn't merely team-up with theirs in one-shots like Silver Surfer/Rune, but certain characters like Black Knight and Juggernaut actually took up residence on Malibu-Earth and were recurring characters in, I believe, Ultraforce and Exiles, respectively. 

As long as the Malibu characters who interact with the Marvel ones are continuations of the characters as they appeared in Malibu comics before the Marvel characters showed up, I would consider that acceptable evidence that all the Malibu comics would be canon. 

Did that last bit make sense? I know what I'm trying to say, but I'm not sure if I expressed myself very well. :smile:

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Posted: 21 Apr 2004 01:07 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Okay, I'll bite -- Top Cow, Extreme, and ... I assume you mean WildStorm, but I can't think of any canon crossovers they've produced. At least, not what we'd consider canon. Am I right? 
<<<


Earth-WildStorm crossed over into the Heroes Reborn universes with issue #13 of each title, where the HR universe nearly collapsed on itself and ended up briefly merging with Earth-WildStorm. The result was a rather strange hybrid universe where members of StormWatch were in the Avengers, and so forth.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 43

Posted: 23 Apr 2004 09:00 pm    Post subject: Ethan Thurm
By captamr

Ethan Thurm introduces the Super-Patriot (eventually the USAgent) to Cap in #323: 


Thurm, Ethan 

TG 30 
*CA 323 
CA 381/ 2 - FB
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 44

Posted: 23 Apr 2004 10:15 pm    Post subject: THREADGOLD...BEN URICH...VAMP
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

new entries marked ** 


THREADGOLD 

XCAL 86 
** XCAL 87 (unnamed; last two panels) 
XCAL 99 


URICH, BEN 

ASM 262 
**PUN 2-BTS (12p2) The Punisher phones Ben with a news tip - evening. Story appears in newspaper next morning 6:00 a.m. If Ben was not directly off panel on the phone, he had a message machine and received the message sometime between the call (12p2 ) and the following a.m. (13p1). Either way there is a direct influence on the story (the headline) as a result of his BTS appearance. 
(**DD 221 as per post #138 I cannot determine if this should be before or after PPTSS 104) 
PPTSS 104 
DD 227 


VAMP/ANIMUS 

CA 230 
**H 232 
CA 231 



Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#173

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Thread 45

Posted: 16 Mar 2004 07:58 am    Post subject: IRON MAN IV...ANDREW "JOCK" JACKSON...CURTISS JACK
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

new entries marked ** 


IRON MAN IV/JAMES R. "JIM" "RHODEY" RHODES 

IM3 20-FB 
**IM 118 
IM 120 


JACKSON, ANDREW "JOCK" 

T 433 
**C&D3 19 ( 29p1 lower right) 
M/CP 112/2 


JACKSON, CURTISS 

CA 331 
**H2 232 
H2 233 


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#164

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Posted: 24 Apr 2004 06:25 pm    Post subject: CURTISS JACKSON
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

additions, changes and adjustments... 


JACKSON, CURTISS 

**MM 7 (31p3(voice) - 31p5) 
MM 8 
CA 230 
**H2 232 (3p1) 
CA 231-FB (11p1) - currently shown as CA 231 
**H2 232 
H2 233 --relocated from after CA 331 
H2 234 --relocated from after CA 331 
H2 235 --relocated from after CA 331 
H2 236 --relocated from after CA 331 
H2 237 --relocated from after CA 331 

CA 328-FB 
CA 381/2-FB-BTS 
TG 35 
TG 36-BTS 
CA 328 
CA 329 
CA 330 
CA 331 
(H2 233-H2 237 relocated to earlier position) 
CA 358/2

			*	*	*

Thread 46

Posted: 24 Apr 2004 08:40 pm    Post subject: Issue analysis: The assignments
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

With all these new and changing publications coming from Marvel, I thought I'd take the opportunity to review where we are on assignments for issue analysis. Please let me know if there are any mistakes here, and continued thanks to all contributors.  :smile:

PAUL BOURCIER (putting info directly onto the calendar for these many, many titles) 
Alpha Flight 
Amazing Spider-Man 
Astonishing X-Men 
Avengers 
Avengers/Thunderbolts 
Cable & Deadpool 
Captain America 
Captain America & The Falcon 
Captain Marvel 
Excalibur 
Exiles (#46-48 in the mainstream MU) 
Fantastic Four 
4 
Hawkeye 
Identity Disc 
Invaders 
Iron Man 
Mystique 
New X-Men: Academy X 
Rogue 
Secret War 
She-Hulk 
Spectacular Spider-Man 
Spider-Man 
Spider-Man Unlimited 
Thor 
Uncanny X-Men 
Weapon X 
X-Men 
X-Men Unlimited 
X-Statix 

DREW 
Venom 

PETER FABRICIUS 
Epic Anthology 
Wolverine/Punisher 

GARBONZO 
Sentinel 

ANTONIO GAVIO (unconfirmed; other takers?) 
ACTOR Presents Spider-Man & The Incredible Hulk 
Marvelous Adventures of Gus Beezer & Spider-Man 

SEAN KLEEFELD 
Pulse 

PAUL OBRIEN 
Emma Frost 
Iron Fist 
NYX 
Silver Surfer 

DAN SPEARS 
Inhumans 
Runaways 
Thanos 

KEVIN WASSER 
Daredevil 
Daredevil: Father 
Incredible Hulk 
Punisher Max 
Thor: Son of Asgard 

JEPH YORK 
Wolverine 

UP FOR GRABS (any takers?) 
Amazing Fantasy 
District X 
Guardians 
Venom Vs. Carnage 
Witches 

NON-CANON (or at least I think so): 
Icon comics 
Loki 
Man-Thing 
Marvel Age comics 
Powerless 
Spider-Man 2: The Movie 
Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Year One?? 
Starjammers 
Supreme Power? 
Ultimate comics 
Wolverine: The End 


In case you need it, here are some things that would help me integrate your contributions into the calendar: 

1) If a single issue spans more than one day, please separate the issue into entries for each day, including page/panel ranges [e.g. X-MEN FOREVER #6 (1-33p1) or GAMBIT v3 #20 (20p3-22)] 

2) Likewise, if there are any flashbacks in the issue, devote a separate entry to each one, again with page/panel ranges [e.g. MAXIMUM SECURITY #1  FB (28p1-28p3) or BLACK PANTHER v3 #25  FB (1p4-14)] 

3) For each entry (be it flashback or contemporary segment or whole issue), please note what you can of the following: 
 Short plot synopsis 
 List of characters in that entry 
 Notes about characters and plotlines that might help in relative chronological placement (e.g. Falcon wearing costume introduced in A3 57, Logan sporting a goatee, Bruce Banner on the lam, Ant-Man with the Avengers, etc.) 
 Temporal references (see #4 below) 

4) Temporal references may include as many of the following as apply to the particular segment: 

 Specific references to issues of other titles made in editorial notes (usually so we know your segment occurs after the referenced issue, even though we may not have a clue about passage of time) 

 References to the passage of time between the segment and some previous issue or event [e.g.: same day as previous issue (if it picks up where things left off); so-and-so referred to as having occurred the other day or last week or last summer or last year; three weeks after XMF 6 (1-33) or a month after TW 5 (21-22). If you know the citation, you can use MCP abbreviations. 

 References to things that are expected to happen in the future (e.g. a promotion next month, a resignation in five days, a birthday coming up next Tuesday) 

 Specific mention of days of the week, months, dates, holidays, birthdays, anniversaries, etc. in speech, narration, calendars, journals, newspapers, invitations, etc. 

 Seasonal references such as vegetation and foliage, natural weather (snow, hurricane, tornado, etc.), temperature (nature of clothing), etc., including clues given in speech and narration (hot, cold, etc.) 

 Other clues to days of the week or time of year (banks open, schools open, vacations, sports seasons, etc.) 

 Lunar phases shown [e.g. full moon, gibbous moon, waxing crescent moon (backward C), waning crescent moon (C), half moon] 

Not all these references will have equal weight, and some will have to be chalked up to being temporal references (an Olshevsky term), but every one you note will be considered when placing flashbacks, segments, and entire issues on the calendar.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Apr 2004 04:14 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

I'm happy to take any or all of the "up for grabs" books - frankly, I'll be amazed if SILVER SURFER or IRON FIST last too much longer, and NYX never bloody ships, so there's plenty of spare capacity. 

SILVER SURFER's first story arc didn't actually end, so much as segue directly into the next one, so I'm still waiting for a sensible break point before posting any analysis. Nothing that's happened in the book should pose chronological problems, since nobody guest stars in it and the Silver Surfer hasn't been used prominently elsewhere (or in the book itself, for that matter!). About the only event which might have repercussions elsewhere is, bizarrely, the privatisation of NASA... 

As for the non-canon list, I agree about the Icon and Marvel Age books (Sean McKeever has been very explicit about saying they're not in any continuity), and the movie adaptations. POWERLESS looks to be off on an alternate earth somewhere and therefore irrelevant. SUPREME POWER also looks to be a completely separate continuity. 

Why is LOKI on the list? The solicitation seems to suggest that it's canon, albeit a questionable interpretation by Loki ("Odin's least favourite son rewrites Asgardian lore from his perspective...") 

WOLVERINE: THE END is off in an alternate future, but has included a couple of flashbacks to events in the past. I can't see any reason why they shouldn't be treated as canon - if it's a potential future, then flashbacks to the Weapon X project and ORIGIN are presumably to the same Marvel Universe versions because the timeline hasn't diverged yet. The series also seems to be trying to retrofit a new character into Wolverine's backstory. So while the events themselves are off in an alternate future, the series does seem to contain information relevant to the present-day Wolverine.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 25 Apr 2004 03:14 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Doctor Octopus: Year One looks like it's supposed to be canonical, from what I've seen. Whether or not it actually does mesh with Doc's established pre-origin continuity remains to be seen.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 03:24 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Just to confirm: yes, I'm still handling Wolverine (and, Paul, if you want to give up any of those X-books, I can shoulder the load) -- but at this point I'm only buying the trades, so I'm not 100% up-to-date. 

"Coyote Crossing" (W3 #7-11) is on its way to me, and after that it looks like we'll have a while to wait before the next one comes out (#12-19). 

On the other hand, it's always a good idea to wait until the arc is over before analysing it anyway, right?  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 Apr 2004 04:08 pm    Post subject: X-Calendar update
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
"Coyote Crossing" (W3 #7-11) is on its way to me, and after that it looks like we'll have a while to wait before the next one comes out (#12-19).  
<<<

I was going to post the new X-calendar later this week, after XX 46 comes out (at least I think that's this week), and that will bring us up to Reload. Jeph, if your analysis of W3 7-11 is coming this week, I can incorporate that into the new calendar. 

BTW, I have a theory about the newsworthy "drama over at the school" that called Xavier back to the Institute, as mentioned in MYSTIQUE #10 -- Wolfsbane's gutting of Josh Foley in NM2 11. In NM2 12, as Josh lies dying, folks are trying to contact Archangel for his healing power. They may also be contacting Xavier (who is not around and hasn't been seen in the pages of NM2 since #7) behind the scenes. In my theory, he is called and told that Rahne attacked Josh, he relays the message to Forge as he leaves, then Forge turns on the news to find out that a wolf-girl has been spotted on the loose in Westchester. Dani then finds Rahne in NM2 12 and brings her back to the Institute, where Xavier shows up just after the conclusion of NM2 12. And he remains based there until we see him again shortly thereafter in X 146 (although he does leave the school briefly as noted in MYSTIQUE #11; I'm still theorizing that MYSTIQUE 11-12 occur before Magneto's destruction of the Institute since Forge expects Xavier to be there). 

In short, it seems to me that Rahne's actions would be newsworthy and labeled a "drama over at the school" by Forge.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Apr 2004 10:43 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Not to point fingers or anything, but have we actually heard from Dan Spears, Drew, or Garbonzo lately? I can't keep track. If you guys are still with the MCP, let us know... 

Cause if not, we'll eventually need to divide up their titles among others...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Apr 2004 11:09 pm    Post subject: Re: X-Calendar update
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Jeph, if your analysis of W3 7-11 is coming this week, I can incorporate that into the new calendar. 
<<<

Unfortunately, that won't be happening. I usually get my comic shipments every 6-8 weeks, as I wait until my order builds up to the "free shipping" limit. I'm guessing you'll have to wait until the end of May to get your "Coyote Crossing" write-up. Sorry. 

Quote: 
>>>
BTW, I have a theory about the newsworthy "drama over at the school" that called Xavier back to the Institute, as mentioned in MYSTIQUE #10 -- Wolfsbane's gutting of Josh Foley in NM2 11. 
<<<

Works for me, fella. Write it on up. 

-Jeph!

				*	*	*

Thread 47

Posted: 24 Apr 2004 12:07 pm    Post subject: 1602: My Diagnosis...
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Well, the miniseries "1602" is now complete, and in the end, I don't see a definite connection to the main Marvel universe. 

The quick version: Something is out of whack in the year 1602. Violent storms, earthquakes, and other 'acts of God' have many feeling the world is about to end. A group of heroes (the classic early marvel heroes of the 1960's) eventually discover that time is out of whack, and that for some inexplicable reason, they're being born and existing over 400 years before they're supposed to be alive. Dr. Strange eventually finds out that someone came through a time portal and popped into existence about 15 years prior to the events of this story. This figure's arrival has caused a space/time anamoly, and will keep chaos They thoerize that if they send this person back through the time portal, then the universe will be made right, and everything won't be destroyed. 

The final issue reveals the figure who came through time to be Captain America. He's lived the past 15 years as a Native American Indian, named Rojhaz...he explains the future he comes from as follows: 

It appears to be several years into the future of our regular Marvel Universe. Cap. explains that all his hero buddies, (the Avengers and the rest) are all growing old, (or dying in the line of duty) while he remains young due to the Super Soldier Serum...eventually, America becomes a Fascist Dictatorship, run by the "President For Life" (a figure who looks strikingly like George W. Bush). We learn that all of the remaining heroes are rounded up and imprisoned, (we see old man versions of Peter Parker and Matt Murdock, in costume, being taking away by 'secret police'). Cap. America joined the underground resistance, but was eventually captured, and was executed...but they didn't want his body around to serve the purpose of a martyr, (basically, they wanted him to disappear all together) and so they use some sort of machine to disentigrate him, but instead, it sends Steve back in time, to 15 years prior to 1602. 

I for one kinda think this is Steve Rogers not realizing he's in Hell...I mean, if he was shot, then what the heck is this Time Travel business? 

At the end of 1602 #8, Steve is sent back into the future, along with Nick Fury, who ends up tagging along by accident. We don't see what ramifications this has for the future, but the Watcher tells us that the "Main" Marvel timeline has been restored to normal. And through a twist, the 1602 version of Marvel is allowed to continue in existence, but it's now split off as a seperate timeline...but the problem is, if Cap. America, (with Nick Fury tagging along) have been sent back to the future, they've been sent back to a far future, ahead of the present Marvel universe, when all of the superheroes are all old or dead. So this can have no ramifications that I can see on the present day "Mainstream" Marvel universe... 

But we were told this miniseries WOULD have ramifications on mainstream Marvel...but if it does, I fail to see any. This was a fun story, but I don't think we as chronologists should give it any more thought until proven otherwise...Neil Gaiman is rumored to be writing a sequel, or possible a new Nick Fury miniseries, (or even possibly ongoing series) and if these projects have links to the 1602 miniseries, then stayed tuned...but otherwise, let's not worry about it anymore.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Apr 2004 12:13 pm 
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Well, I guess I still have just a few unanswered questions from the miniseries: 

Where the heck did Virginia Dare get her powers from? And why give her powers? I mean, she was a real historical character, right? 

And what was up with the Dinosaurs running around on the North American continent? Was the Savage Land out of whack as well?
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 03:11 am    
By rhod

From the sudden 'origins' of Hulk and Spidey at the end, it seems fairly likely there'll be a sequel (1602 2? 1603?) - maybe that'll make things clearer.....

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 04:20 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Virginia Dare's powers are a reference to a rather obscure myth, the gist of which is that Dare did not really die in infancy, but instead was transformed into a white deer. It seems Gaiman was under a misapprehension as to how well known the story actually is. 

Gaiman has said unequivocally that this is meant to be the 1602 of the real Marvel Universe, and nothing in the book seems to contradict this. Strictly, the individual characters ought to get listings in the MCP. However, perhaps of most significance, the guy on the moon would seem to be the REAL Uatu, and 1602 should definitely get a listing in his chronology.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

Last edited by Paul O'Brien on 26 Apr 2004 12:20 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 25 Apr 2004 03:53 pm    
By rhod

If you were to list 1602 characters in the MCP, where would you put Rojhaz? Technically this series occurs after his 'death' and would have to be placed after everything else he's been in or has yet to appear in.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 04:25 pm 
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The Captain America who appears in 1602 is a character originating from an alternate future and would therefore have an independent listing of his own. He wouldn't be shown as a continuation of the mainstream Captain America.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 10:54 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Virginia Dare's powers are a reference to a rather obscure myth, the gist of which is that Dare did not really die in infancy, but instead was transformed into a white deer. It seems Gaiman was under a misapprehension as to how well known the story actuall is. 

Gaiman has said unequivocally that this is meant to be the 1602 of the real Marvel Universe, and nothing in the book seems to contradict this. Strictly, the individual characters ought to get listings in the MCP. However, perhaps of most significance, the guy on the moon would seem to be the REAL Uatu, and 1602 should definitely get a listing in his chronology.[/url] 
<<<


Huh? It IS supposed to be the 1602 of the Marvel Universe? I thought it was shunt off into an alternate timeline, (and thus, not the 'real' thing...) 

So Queen Elizabeth was murdered by Doctor Doom in the Marvel Universe...now THAT'S what I call revising history...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Apr 2004 02:55 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

The Watcher referred to the universe as number 616, which indicates that this did occur in Marvel's past, and not an alternate universe. Here's my interpretation of events: 

1) Future Cap is dumped in the year 1602. History starts to rewrite itself and the multiverse is threatened with destruction. 

2) Future Cap is returned to his own future, along with 1602 Fury. (One question: If Cap being outside of time will destroy everything, what about Fury being outside of time?) 

3) History is returned to the state it would have been in had Future Cap never been there. 

4) The Watchers gift Uatu with a universe that replicates the 1602 reality. 

So 1602 happened in the past of the real MU, and then was made to not have happened. So it's canon, in the same way that Marvel Universe: The End is canon. For chronology purposes, it's only important for the characters that experienced it, and their aren't many of those.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 26 Apr 2004 12:10 pm    Post subject: 1587-1602?
By dimadick

"Future Cap is dumped in the year 1602. " 

Actually if Cap was already in North America for fifteen years, he would have been dumped in the year 1587. I can't see how could this effect the births of all those other characters. Most of them seemed to have aged past their teens. The youngest of them would probably be Virginia Dare , historically born on August 18, 1587. 

By the way was any Marvel Universe date given for the death of Elizabeth I? The historical Queen died from apparrently natural causes on March 24, 1603. Just to check on the extent of this particular revision.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Apr 2004 03:04 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Well, I messed up that 1602 bit, but I think the rest of my post stands. 

Future Cap's presence doesn't directly influence the creation of those other heroes. It is his presence in the timeline that signals the beginning of an age of marvels, and there are two possible explanations brought up by the Watcher. 

The first is that Cap is kind of the harbinger of the Age of Marvels. His presence is a signal to the universe to bring the rest of the heroes into being. This theory means that Cap would probably have this effect in any timeline if he stayed long enough. 

The other is that the universe is bringing the heroes into being as an attempt to save itself - a self-defense mechanism of some sort, also in reaction to Cap's destructive presence.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Thread 48

Here's the latest previews from Marvel, for the month of July, (so we can be prepared chronology-wise for what's to come): 

http://comics.toonzone.net/solicitations/2004-07/marvel.php 

The publication frenzy continues... 

The Avengers Dissasemble big event is starting this month, and features tie ins into several titles. Is it possible that after the Xmen: Reloaded event, and now the Avengers Dissassemble event, we'll have enough "coming together" continuity points so as we can finally link it all together, and release the latest version of the calender?  :very happy:

The list of titles that are going to tie-in to Avengers are as follows: Cap. America and the Falcon, Captain America, (moving back from the Marvel Knights failure), Iron Man, Thor, and...Spectacular Spiderman. 

Okay, new miniseries to take note of: 

There's a new Rogue miniseries coming out this month. 

There's a new Starjammers miniseries coming out this month. 

Also, a new Man-Thing miniseries, but from the review, I think it's pretty safe to say that it's nothing more than a tie in to the movie, and is NOT in continiuty, (who cares about the Man-Thing anyway?) 

Plus, we have a new "Loki" miniseries...from the Previews book, it looks gorgious, but is it in continiuty? I hope so, as this'll be the coolest version of Loki in years... 

And as for new ONGOING series... 

There's a new title called "Guardians" coming out. I'm unsure if this is in continuity or not... 

The only other noteworthy event this month is that Captain Marvel's final issue comes out in July...it's being cancelled as of issue #25.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Apr 2004 01:01 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

"Starjammers" is completely out-of-continuity, according to interviews with the writer. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Apr 2004 01:26 pm    Post subject: Re: What's coming from Marvel in July...
By Andy Holcombe

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
The list of titles that are going to tie-in to Avengers are as follows: Cap. America and the Falcon, Captain America, (moving back from the Marvel Knights failure), Iron Man, Thor, and...Spectacular Spiderman.  
<<<



I've heard rumblings that Avengers, Captain America, Thor, and Iron Man will canceled and relaunched. If true (grr), this should provide a good place to catch a breath as well. 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
There's a new Rogue miniseries coming out this month. 
<<<


I think Rogue is supposed to be ongoing. 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
There's a new Starjammers miniseries coming out this month. 
<<<


As Jeph said, this will be non-canon. 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Also, a new Man-Thing miniseries, but from the review, I think it's pretty safe to say that it's nothing more than a tie in to the movie, and is NOT in continiuty, (who cares about the Man-Thing anyway?) 
<<<

Since it's being billed as a movie prequel, I concer that it looks to be noncanon. 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Plus, we have a new "Loki" miniseries...from the Previews book, it looks gorgious, but is it in continiuty? I hope so, as this'll be the coolest version of Loki in years... 
<<<


I saw somethink somewhere about this being in the Startling Stories imprint. That suggests noncanon, although Thing: Last Line of Defense didn't strike me as noncanon (unless I missed something), so the Startling Stories banner may not have to mean noncanon.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Apr 2004 04:28 pm    Post subject: Calendar
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
The Avengers Dissasemble big event is starting this month, and features tie ins into several titles. Is it possible that after the Xmen: Reloaded event, and now the Avengers Dissassemble event, we'll have enough "coming together" continuity points so as we can finally link it all together, and release the latest version of the calender?  
<<<


Yes, I've been looking for a good point to close the current chapter of the calendar, and converging continuity points such as Reloaded and Disassemble should do the trick. :smile:

The current calendar year has been a bit loose, because there has been a lot of leeway for placement, and because we've had long-running storylines (e.g. Reed's scarring and Ben's "death" in FF, Asgard-over-Manhattan in T2) that tend to force many stories to go either before or after them. Publication order between titles is taking a beating as a guideline for chronological placement. :smile:

So I expect to have something nailed down, at least as a draft, in June. In the meantime, I've readjusted the recent X-calendar, now that pre-destruction storylines appear to be over. I'll post that soon.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Apr 2004 04:02 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

I'm a little unclear as to the status of STARJAMMERS - the interviews I've seen with the writer describe it as not being in continuity, but context suggests he may simply mean that it's freestanding and doesn't interact with any other books, rather than being out of the Marvel Universe altogether. Has he given any interviews where this is made clearer?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 10:24 am  
By Andy Holcombe

Here are some comments from writer Kevin J. Anderson in an interview with Newsarama: 

First off, readers have to be prepared that this is a completely new version of Starjammers, retooled from scratch, Anderson told Newsarama. In fact, my instructions from the Powers that Be were to scrap everything, keep the good stuff, and begin over. This has no continuity with the old series or with other parts of the Marvel Universe. No Shi'ar Empire, no "Corsair" Summers -- it's an original science fiction tale that will have some familiar aspects for those who remember the old issues, but new readers don't have to haunt comic shops to pick up all the back issues. It's standalone in the Marvel universe, with no continuity with other titles." 

They're stuck fighting a hopeless war against a corrupt empire... but nothing is exactly black and white, and they find allies in unlikely places. You'll see several of the main characters -- but they're in different roles, now. Raza, Cho'd, Hepzibah. From the outset though, I was told not to include Chris Summers. 


It seems that the only thing he's keeping are the names, and possibly basic designs, for Raza, Cho'd, and Hepzibah. Their is also a ship that looks much like the old Starjammer.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 10:48 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Isn't it also set a hundred or so years into the future? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 12:46 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

That's the interview I had in mind, and if you read it closely, I think he's saying it IS in continuity. The key line is "It's standalone in the Marvel Universe, with no continuity with other titles." 

If he meant that it was outside the Marvel Universe altogether, he surely wouldn't describe it as "standalone IN THE MARVEL UNIVERSE." 

It seems to me that what he means by "continuity" is references to other books or interaction with other comics. When he says there's "no continuity" to other titles, he just means that the book is off in its own little corner where it won't affect anything else - but not that it's out of continuity altogether. It's still open for other creators to draw on if they want to do so.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 01:29 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
That's the interview I had in mind, and if you read it closely, I think he's saying it IS in continuity. The key line is "It's standalone in the Marvel Universe, with no continuity with other titles." 
<<<


That line does give me pause, but he also says he was told to start over, with no ties to the traditional Starjammers. I guess we'll know for sure when the books come out. I'm going with the interpretation of Marvel Universe to be more general and include everything Marvel publishes.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 04:24 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

When he says "no ties", he's obviously exaggerating, because the Starjammers are basically the same characters (save for the deletion of Corsair). 

I've seen it suggested that the real underlying purpose of the remit was to come up with a version of the Starjammers that was potentially licensable independently of the X-Men, which is certainly a possible interpretation.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 26 Apr 2004 02:21 am    Post subject: Fury
By dimadick

On a different note, the Uncanny X-Men apparently feature the return of the Fury who used to be a Marvel UK character only. Further indication that those old Marvel UK stories are in continiuty? 

A profile of its previous history can be found on: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/fury1.htm

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Posted: 26 Apr 2004 09:23 am    
By Dhall

To my knowledge, the old Marvel UK Captain Britian stories have always been considered to be in continuity by the MCP, and by Marvel itself (that's where Psylocke, and Captain Britain came from after all.) 

On a story note though, bringing back a really obscure villian (however good) from a comic published only in the UK twenty years ago strikes me as a silly move. Even most die hard X-Men fans won't know the character, unless they picked up the Captain Britian reprint issues. (And those were reprinted what about a decade ago?) 

Kind of reminds me of when Claremont based a new X-Men villain off some humor characters from Excalibur #17, and expected us to take it seriously, during his last run on Uncanny X-Men. 

Well it's all in the handling, so we shall see how it comes out on the page. 

David Hall

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Posted: 26 Apr 2004 11:30 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Dimadick-- 

The old Marvel UK Captain Britain stories ARE in-continuity. We've known that for ages -- they've been referenced in US books umpteen times. They've been legitimized with a US reprint series and TPB. They're already on the MCP, for crying out loud. 

We've all pretty much decided that the Marvel UK 90s output is canon as well. 

As far as I remember, the debate left unresolved is -- what about the Hulk, SHIELD, and other original stories created by Marvel UK, that *only* featured US characters? I don't know of too many, but there were some fairly vehement arguments at the time that they shouldn't be considered canon -- whereas my argument boiled down to: if they fit, and were published in comics alongside the canon CB stories, why not include them? 

Does anyone actually HAVE any of those UK-original US-character stories? It seems hard to debate them if nobody's read them. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Apr 2004 11:32 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

And, speaking of -- where did I leave off with my MCP write-ups of the UK CB books? I remember posting up through "Super Spider-Man" #247 ... did I ever post my write-up of "Hulk Comic" #1-5? Russ? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Apr 2004 11:37 am 
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The canon status of CAPTAIN BRITAIN - including the Black Knight strip that ran in the UK for a while - has been acknowledged by Marvel for decades. It's mentioned in Brian's entry in the original Official Handbook, and the Captain Britain and Black Knight stories are cited as legitimate (though not yet analysed) in AVENGERS INDEX. 

Plus, of course, Captain Britain exists! 

The point is pretty much beyond dispute.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 26 Apr 2004 01:24 pm    Post subject: Marvel UK
By dimadick

"The old Marvel UK Captain Britain stories ARE in-continuity. We've known that for ages" 

True but few of their featured characters are actually listed in the MCP. (Not to mention those featured in other Marvel UK titles). 

For example most issues of the Fury storyline are included in the chronology of Captain Britain. But several of the characters it features do not have listings such as the Fury of James "Mad Jim" Jaspers. Captain U. K actually debuted in this storyline but her only appearances listed are those in Excalibur. 

"They've been referenced in US books umpteen times. " 

Progressively less oftenly though and even the reprints are getting hard to find. David Hall makes a good point in their current obscurity. Actually I was just surprised to see Claremont bringing back a destroyed/deceased character this late after its last appearance. 

As for the Marvel UK storylines featuring US characters, no objection to their canonicity. But placing their events in relation to those featured in their contemporary US titles would be quite a feat. 

----- 

"Kind of reminds me of when Claremont based a new X-Men villain off some humor characters from Excalibur #17, and expected us to take it seriously, during his last run on Uncanny X-Men." 

That would be Tullamore Vogue. Claremont used him again in storylines featured in X-Treme X-Men #34- #39. Nothing much to take seriously but his appearances are still recent in memory and at least his chronology offers little complications.

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Posted: 26 Apr 2004 02:00 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
most issues of the Fury storyline are included in the chronology of Captain Britain. 
<<<

All. All of the Fury storyline issues are listed in CB's chronology. 

Quote: 
>>>
several of the characters it features do not have listings such as the Fury [or] James "Mad Jim" Jaspers. 
<<<

That's because I'm the guy in charge of writing up those issues for the MCP -- and I'm a big slacker. 

Quote: 
>>>
[They've been referenced] Progressively less oftenly though and even the reprints are getting hard to find. 
<<<

That doesn't make them non-canon, though. When was the last time UX #8 or FF #2 was referenced? They're still canon though. 

Quote: 
>>>
As for the Marvel UK storylines featuring US characters, no objection to their canonicity. 
<<<

Great! Have you read any of 'em? 

Quote: 
>>>
But placing their events in relation to those featured in their contemporary US titles would be quite a feat. 
<<<

Why? Have you read any of 'em? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Apr 2004 02:43 pm    
By Dhall

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I think we need a FAQ page listing what Marvel UK titles/issues are considered cannon (just like we need one for intercompany crossovers that are cannon.) 

Clearly there's no reason why the mid/late 90's (and perhaps other) Marvel UK issues wouldn't be cannon. 
Just because the stories don't have much impact on the US characters doesn't rule them out. 

After all, though they were published by Marvek UK, it was relativly easy to buy them in the US. 

It would be a challenge to put these all into continuity, but probably not harder than many of the challenges that the MCP has already met. 

(of course it would entail someone admitting that they own some of these issues....heh) 

As an X-Men ultracompletist, I would love a list of which UK issues I need to buy for my collection (yes I have some, but I'm sure not all.) 

Dave Hall

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Posted: 26 Apr 2004 03:39 pm    
By rhod

I don't see that not having appeared for a while should prevent a character from reappearing, Mimic, for example, suffered a gap of nearly 30 years between appearances in the original X-men series and a series of appearances in X-Force and Excalibur (personally I'd like to see him reappear again), and this is only one of what I'm sure are many precedents. 

On a Marvel UK note, aretitles such as Dragons Claws, Deaths Head and Killpower canon? It's been many years since reading these and I don't remember them too well. Deaths Head spent his time bouncing round various alternate universes and dimensions so I realise all his comics need'nt be included in the MCP, but he did make several visits tio Earth616, notably meeting the Fantastic Four and Wolverine, among others.

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Posted: 26 Apr 2004 05:21 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

"After all, though they were published by Marvek UK, it was relativly easy to buy them in the US. " 

I think it's worth reiterating this point once again: the "Marvel UK" comics which were produced in the nineties were edited in London but published and printed in America, for consumption by American audiences. Originally Marvel UK wanted to stop them being imported into Britain at all, and run only edited reprints in a British anthology title. 

They were NOT British comics which were being exported to America. They weren't even available in the UK, unless you got imported copies from a direct market store. The reason it was easy to get them in America was because the North American direct market was their sole distribution channel - even for readers in the UK.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 26 Apr 2004 06:17 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And, speaking of -- where did I leave off with my MCP write-ups of the UK CB books? I remember posting up through "Super Spider-Man" #247 ... did I ever post my write-up of "Hulk Comic" #1-5? Russ? 
<<<


I've updated with everything you've posted on the UK books. If it's not in the Project, you haven't provided it. 


watching: smallville

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Posted: 26 Apr 2004 06:29 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Good, thanks. I'll find it and provide it. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Apr 2004 05:03 am    Post subject: Marvel UK
By dimadick

"That's because I'm the guy in charge of writing up those issues for the MCP -- and I'm a big slacker." 

Distracted by analyzing more recent X-Titles rings closer to the truth. 

"Why? Have you read any of 'em?" 

Not realy since their not easy to obtain in Greece. But summaries and listing of appearances for several of them are available through the Internet. But where to place the various guest appearances within the established chronologies of the characters? 

For example Death's Head II vol. 1 # 2 (April, 1992) featured Death's Head II in the hunt for Reed Richards, invading Four Freedoms Plaza and ending up absorbing all the data contained in the FF computers. Meanwhile Fantastic Four #362 - #365 (March - June, 1993) featured the FF exploring the Inniverse and the title continued in joining the Infinity War crossover. Any idea were to place the equipment destruction in relation to the other two storylines? 

Death's Head II vol. 2 #1 - #4 (December, 1992 - March, 1993) features several of the X-Men (Beast, Cyclops, Gambit, Jubilee, Professor X, Psylocke, Rogue, Wolverine) joining a search for the Sapphire Lotus. Any idea of how to place the storyline in relation to its contemporary "X-Cutioner's Song"? 

The mini-series Battletide (December, 1992 - March, 1993) featured several characters being abducted and forced to take part in gladiatorial games , broadcasted across the multiverse. The abductees included Hercules, Psylocke, Sabretooth and Wolverine. Any ideas of where to place the mini-series in relation to the contemporary Avengers and X-Men titles? 

"It would be a challenge to put these all into continuity, but probably not harder than many of the challenges that the MCP has already met.(of course it would entail someone admitting that they own some of these issues....heh)" 

How true. 

"I don't see that not having appeared for a while should prevent a character from reappearing." 

Me neither. Reintroducing readers to older characters was after all the whole idea behind classics such as Fantastic Four #4 and Avengers #4. But conventional wisdom dictates that recognizable characters tend to increase sales. Or at least this seems to be the idea behind overusing Spider-Man, Punisher and Wolverine, 

"Mimic, for example, suffered a gap of nearly 30 years between appearances in the original X-men series and a series of appearances in X-Force and Excalibur (personally I'd like to see him reappear again), and this is only one of what I'm sure are many precedents. " 

Many characters have been absent for years, only to make more or less successful returns. But Mimic is probably unique in returning after that long an absence. Too bad his last appearance was a cameo in Uncanny X-Men #379 (April, 2000). His teammates Blob, Post and Toad have all since re-appeared.

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Posted: 27 Apr 2004 06:42 am    Post subject: Re: Marvel UK
Andy Holcombe

dimadick wrote: 

>>>
For example Death's Head II vol. 1 # 2 (April, 1992) 

The mini-series Battletide (December, 1992 - March, 1993) 
<<<


Those aren't the titles he was talking about. Several years prior, when Marvel UK was publishing Captain Britian, they also published some original stories featuring Marvel US chahracters like the Hulk and Spider-Man. Those are the stories Jeph is having a hard time finding. The later Marvel UK books (Death's Head 2, Battletide, Motormouth, Warheads, etc.) are quite easy and cheap to find. Granted, most of them aren't worth the paper they're printed on, but they're still easy to find.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Apr 2004 12:29 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
"That's because I'm the guy in charge of writing up those issues for the MCP -- and I'm a big slacker." 

Distracted by analyzing more recent X-Titles rings closer to the truth. 

No -- trust me -- I'm a big slacker. Don't put words in my mouth. :smile: 

And Andy's right -- I'm not talking about the mid-90s "Marvel UK" stuff that was mainly available in the USA -- I'm talking about the stuff produced by "Marvel Ltd." in the UK from 1972-1992. Their output, only available in the UK, was mainly reprints of US books -- but the occasional all-new story would appear. We've decided that the all-new Captain Britain stories at that time are canon -- but some folks seem opposed to presuming that the REST of those new stories could be canon as well. 

I'll post my write-up of Marvel Ltd.'s "Hulk Comic" #1-5 (1979) soon, and you'll see what I'm talking about. In addition to Black Knight/Captain Britain stories, there are all-new Hulk and SHIELD tales as well. 

By the way, it's come to my attention that I don't have Hulk Comic #2 -- I have some notes but not the actual issue. Does anyone have it? 

A write-up of the issue can be found here {http://www.hulklibrary.com/hulk/comics/comic-show.asp?Id=hcuk&Issue=2}, but I'm not a site member and can't read the whole thing. Is anyone here a member of "the Hulk Library"? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Apr 2004 04:40 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Actually, given the description of HULK COMIC on that page you linked to, the canonicity does seem questionable - it seems to feature a kind of hybrid Hulk based primarily on the TV show.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 Apr 2004 05:09 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

"Seems to", sure -- but have we bothered looking into it? 

I'm not prepared to write off a series of stories as entirely non-canon, every last one of 'em, just because they were produced to appeal to readers who know of the Hulk from his TV show. It'd be nice to look through them and find concrete evidence that they CAN'T be canon -- that there's NEVER been a Hulk like the one they're portraying. Or, alternately, to find a spot where they DO fit into the Hulk's history. 

Unfortunately, I think I'm the only one here who owns most of them -- and I don't know enough about the Hulk to be able to say for sure. 

I'd be happy to scan them and send the stories to a Hulk expert, though... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 49

Posted: 22 Apr 2004 08:24 am    Post subject: Cagliostro note
By Scathach80

Actually, Cagliostro's last published appearance was in Doctor Strange Annual#2, not 3. 

Checking this site, it turns out that Doctor Strange Annual#3 only had three stories. 

http://www.geocities.com/paulo_costa_2000/DRSTRAN.HTM#S13 

CAGLIOSTRO, ALESSANDRO/GUISEPPE BALSAMO 
DL 5/2 
DL 6/3 
A 187-FB 
DRSTR@ 2/4 
M/PRM 13 
M/PRM 14 
IM 149 
DRSTR@ 2/4

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Posted: 22 Apr 2004 11:30 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Uh, you realize that DRSTR@2/4 was ALREADY in his chronology, right? And now it's in there twice? 

Did you actually CHECK for this Cagliostro guy in Annual #3, or are you just assuming that he couldn't possibly be in @3/4, because @3/4 doesn't exist? So therefore we must have meant @2/4? 

You know, we might have meant @3/3, or @3/2 ... or we may be listing a one-page something-or-other as DRSTR @3/2, even though the Unofficial Handbook doesn't recognize it, meaning that from our POV the Annual DOES have four stories... 

Did you check the books themselves before posting this? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Apr 2004 11:52 am    Post subject: M/PRM#13-14 not the true Cagliostro, but Sise-Neg
By Scathach80

I apologize. I may have gone hog wild, but this would be a good time to bring up another point. 

That was not the true Cagliostro in Marvel Premiere#13-14. It was, in fact, Sise-Neg* posing as Cagliostro. 

So, the corrected entry; 

CAGLIOSTRO, ALESSANDRO/GUISEPPE BALSAMO 
DL 5/2 
DL 6/3 
A 187-FB 
DRSTR@ 2/4 
IM 149 
DRSTR@ 3/4 

The chronology also seems a bit fuzzy because IM DRSTR@/4 takes place in the modern era, while Iron Man#149 must take place in the past, because Doctor Doom time travels back to meet Cagliostro. Of course, the problem is that Cagliostro resembles a much older man in that Iron Man story. 

*Sise-Neg was a sorcerer from the future who named himself after the First Book of the Bible, which he thought was called Genesis*. 

*Well, it turns out that Sise-Neg needs a course in Bible history, since the true name for the first book of the Bible is *not* Genesis. "Genesis" is a Greek word that comes from the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Bible. In the original Hebrew, the name of the first book of the Bible is B'resheet". (Similar to an MS word document, in Hebrew, the name of a document comes from the first few words of a document)

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Posted: 22 Apr 2004 12:31 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
That was not the true Cagliostro in Marvel Premiere#13-14. It was, in fact, Sise-Neg* posing as Cagliostro. 

Where was this revealed? 

I'm not doubting you -- but please, remember to list your sources. If you can give us a huge footnote about Bible facts, you can remember to tell us where Sise-Neg's deception was revealed. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Apr 2004 02:17 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

It was stated by Sise-Neg in Marvel Premiere #13. 
'I have simply become Cagliostro, while he is away battling his arch-enemy Dracula." 

Al least it reads so in my copy of Doctor Strange: A Separate Reality. This reprints Marvel Premiere #9-10, 12-14 and Doctor Strange (vol. 2) #1-2, 4-5. 

So the person appearing in Marvel Premiere #13-14 is Sise-Neg, not Cagliostro. 

And I also just checked Doctor Strange Annuals 2, 3 and 4. 
Cagliostro is correctly in DRSTR@ 2/4 (it has 5 stories) together with Victor Strange and Morgana Blessing. 
Annual 3 has only 3 stories, no single or two page thing that could be a fourth story. The two first are with Strange and Kyllian, the last with Strange and Mordo. There are also 4 pin-ups. 

Annual 4 has two stories, no Cagliostro in either of them. 

So since both Strange and Sise-Neg impersonate Cagliostro in Marvel Premiere #13 (I presume that the Cagliostro seen earlier in the day before Strange impersonates him, is Sise-Neg. Sise-Neg was there to write a book posing as Cagliostro, he must have been there some time, the book was finished.) We coukl give Cagliostro a Behind-the-Scenes in this story. 

This would make his listing 

CAGLIOSTRO, ALESSANDRO/GUISEPPE BALSAMO 
DL 5/2 
DL 6/3 
A 187-FB 
M/PRM 13-BTS 
IM 149 
DRSTR@ 2/4
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: 22 Apr 2004 09:02 pm    Post subject: For simple things such as this
By Scathach80

Since it was simply stated in the stories themselves (in this case, in Marvel Premiere#13-14), I did not mention my sources. For the more complicated ones where I rely on letters pages, The Official Handbook, later published stories, indexes, etc. I will make a note of sources.

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Posted: 22 Apr 2004 11:07 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Since it was simply stated in the stories themselves (in this case, in Marvel Premiere#13-14), I did not mention my sources. 
<<<

You probably should anyway -- not all of us own the issues, and we can't pull them out and verify your claims. It's easier for all of us if you tell us where your information is from, every time. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Apr 2004 03:06 pm    Post subject: Cagliostro again; Iron Man appearance note
By Scathach80

A slight Cagliostro revisal. 

Iron Man 149 is a bit problematic, because Cagliostro appears there as an extremely old sorcerer with a three foot long white beard. Usually, he is shown in a more youthful form. However, in that issue, Cagliostro mentions that the items he receives from the time travelling Doctor Doom will enable him to creat his immortality formula, indicating that Cagliostro grew into his more youthful appearance after his encounter with Doctor Doom. 

So I suggest that it be slotted before Cagliostro's DL 5/2 appearance. 

CAGLIOSTRO, ALESSANDRO/GUISEPPE BALSAMO 
IM 149 
DRSTR3 15/2 
{DL 5/2} 
DL 6/3 
A 187-FB 
M/PRM 13-BTS 
DRSTR@ 2/4 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/cagliostrosorcerer.htm 
clarifies some of the Cagliostro confusion. Jean Marc Lofficier stated that the Marvel Universe Cagliostro is much older than the historical real world Cagliostro. So Cagliostro of Earth-616 was around in 1600 AD. 

As noted in the Book of Vishanti back-up in Doctor Strange III#15/2, and confirmed in the Darkhold entry in Update '89#2, Cagliostro sent the theif Murgo to steal the Darkhold. So I have slotted Cagliostro as behind the scenes in that issue. 

"Around 1600 A.D. Dracula learned of the existence of the Darkhold and that it threatened the existence of vampires. He forced the gypsy thief Murgo to steal the Darkhold from the Vatican Library in Rome. However, the sorcerer Cagliostro, king of the gypsies, murdered Murgo and took the Darkhold for himself." 

http://www.marveldirectory.com/misc/darkhold.htm

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Posted: 27 Apr 2004 04:56 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

John-- 

I do agree with your conclusions -- my only quibble is that you're using information from an unpublished story to support your conclusions. 

From the site you linked to: 

"The history in this profile makes a slight break from "the norm" in that it includes history as detailed by a writer from Marvel Comics, Jean-Marc Lofficier in an unpublished story. JML had written a Book of the Vishanti feature on Cagliostro that was to have been published as a back-up in the third Dr. Strange series. For whatever reason, this story never saw print..." 

The best way to prove a point is to use actual published comics to back it up -- Iron man travelled back to Year X, Cagliostro was around in Year X, therefore he was alive in Year X. Done. 

Info from the Handbooks is generally accepted as well ... the earlier Handbooks at least. 

But info from unpublished stories? No. 

Again -- I agree with your conclusions in this case. I just want you to be more aware, in general, of which sources are MCP-acceptable. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Apr 2004 05:16 pm    
By Scathach80

Actually, I was relying on a published story. I was referring to Doctor Strange III#15/2, an immediate sequel to an earlier Dracula Lives story. That Doctor Strange story showed Dracula discovering the existence of the Darkhold in 1459. Dracula then sends a thief called Murgo to steal the Darkhold, and Murgo is killed by Cagliostro. Ergo, Cagliostro existed in 1459. This is confirmed by the Official Handbook Update '89#2 entry for the Darkhold. 

I read Iron Man I#149. In it, Cagliostro notes that he created his immortality serum from the items he obtained through his dealings with Doctor Doom. 

I only mentioned Mr. Lofficier as an aside.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Apr 2004 05:25 pm    Post subject: Also, Doctor Strange III#10/2
By Scathach80

http://www.drstrange.nl/drstrange/sanctum/book/v_darkholdcurse08.htm 
Another published story, Doctor Strange III#10/2, also supports my conclusions, since that issue reveals that Cagliostro gained his immortality from the Darkhold, which he stole in 1459 per Doctor Strange III#15/2. Based on the aged appearance of Cagliostro in Iron Man I#149, that suggests that Cagliostro appeared there before he gained his immortality formula from stealing the Darkhold.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Apr 2004 05:28 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Nowhere in your earlier post did you say that DRSTR3 #15/2 took place in 1459. In fact, the bit you DID quote (from ANOTHER online site), said that it took place in the 1600s! 

If you're going to mention Lofficier's unpublished story as an aside, you should probably mention it LAST (rather than BEFORE the info about DRSTR3 #15/2), and mention that the info came from an UNPUBLISHED story. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Apr 2004 05:35 pm    Post subject: Sorry about that
By Scathach80

Sorry about that. Anyway, second run 

The Marvel Universe Cagliostro is much older than his real-world counterpart. Doctor Strange III#15/2 establishes that Cagliostro existed in 1459, when he killed a man who worked for Dracula to get the Darkhold. Doctor Strange III#10/2 establishes that Cagliostro gained his immortality from the Darkhold. 

So IM 149 must take place before Cagliostro became immortal. 

CAGLIOSTRO, ALESSANDRO/GUISEPPE BALSAMO 
IM 149 
DRSTR3 15/2 
{DL 5/2} 
DL 6/3 
A 187-FB 
M/PRM 13-BTS 
DRSTR@ 2/4 

Does this make sense?

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Apr 2004 05:43 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Does this make sense? 
<<<

Much more. Thank you. 

A few things, though -- you said that DRSTR3 #10/2 established that Cag gained his immortality from the Darkhold -- however, IM #149 established that the items Cag received from Dr. Doom would allow him to create his immortality formula. 

I'm not sure that this story hiccup will affect his chronology -- but it's got me wondering about the reliability of the logic you used to place the issues relative to one another. 

However, there's an easy way to establish which came first, IM #149 or DRSTR #15/2 -- in the Marvel Universe, what years did King Arthur reign in? 

I don't know, myself. But didn't IM #149 occur in King Arthur's time? If King Arthur's time in the MU was before the year 1459, then IM 149 must have come first. If after, then vice versa. 

Also -- in one of your earlier posts you said that Cag appeared *behind the scenes* in DRSTR3 #15/2. Yet you've got him listed for a full appearance. Which is it? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Apr 2004 05:49 pm    Post subject: My hiccup
By Scathach80

It was a full appearance. My mistake.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Apr 2004 11:10 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

And the King Arthur years thing? Do you know? 

I don't, unfortunately. Does anyone? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Apr 2004 11:56 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
A few things, though -- you said that DRSTR3 #10/2 established that Cag gained his immortality from the Darkhold -- however, IM #149 established that the items Cag received from Dr. Doom would allow him to create his immortality formula. 

I'm not sure that this story hiccup will affect his chronology -- but it's got me wondering about the reliability of the logic you used to place the issues relative to one another. 
<<<


Actually, this discrepancy's pretty easy to address: the Darkhold contained the spell that granted Cagliostro his immortality, but he couldn't cast the spell without a few items that he wasn't able to obtain until Doom gave them to him. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Apr 2004 12:23 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Which would imply that IM #149 occurs *after* DRSTR3 #15/2... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Apr 2004 04:12 am    Post subject: King Arthur lived in the Sixth century
By Scathach80

King Arthur lived in the sixth century CE. This is confirmed in numerous places in the Official Handbook. Also, Tyrannus' origin from Avengers Annual#20. 


"However, there's an easy way to establish which came first, IM #149 or DRSTR #15/2 -- in the Marvel Universe, what years did King Arthur reign in? 

I don't know, myself. But didn't IM #149 occur in King Arthur's time? If King Arthur's time in the MU was before the year 1459, then IM 149 must have come first. If after, then vice versa."" 

Iron Man#149 does not take place in the time of King Arthur. In that issue, Doctor Doom goes back in time to meet Cagliostro. Then, he returns to the present. 
In the present, Iron Man travels back in time to battle Doctor Doom. During the battle, they are accidentally throne into a time machine. 
It was not until Iron Man#150 that they emerge in King Arthur's time

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Posted: 28 Apr 2004 03:08 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
Which would imply that IM #149 occurs *after* DRSTR3 #15/2... 


...alternately: Cagliostro was aware that an immortality spell existed, and had rudimentary knowledge of its requirements, circa IM 149; but he didn't have the spell itself. So, he obtained what he needed for the spell from Doom without actually having come into possession of the spell itself. 

Either way, I think that his age in IM 149 does suggest that that appearance ought to occur before he attains immortality. 

-Sean

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Thread 50

Posted: 28 Apr 2004 07:24 am    Post subject: UXM 300     
By Jason Doty

I noticed UXM 300 was added to the Project, but Nightcrawler's appearance was not added to his chronology.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Apr 2004 03:04 pm    Post subject: Re: UXM 300
By SeanCurtin

The issues of Excalibur from that time period haven't yet been added to the MCP, so the relevant characters' chronologies from that time period won't get updated until that happens. 

(Right?)

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Apr 2004 03:17 pm    
By Dhall

I assume that Russ hasn't put any Excalibur guest appearances in for those UXM issues, because he hasn't yet had a chance to analyse the relevant issues of Excalibur at this point. 

The same thing occured when Russ updated the MCP with the Infinity Crusade issues, initially these issues did not appear in the X-Men's listings, because at that point, the relevant issues of UXM had not been analyzed. 

Of course, the issue # could be put in to Nightcrawler's listing, but if it was, it would be in a gap, and the "previous" and "next" issues would not reflect his true chronology. 

The other way to do it would be to list is as: 

Excal .... 
(gap) 
UXM 300 
(gap) 
Excal ... 

but that would be silly looking, and wouldn't provide any more information. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Thread 51

Posted: 28 Apr 2004 03:14 pm    Post subject: WILDRUN ... CLUMSY FOULUP
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

new entries marked ** 


WILDRUN 

**FF@ 25 (from an earlier post - #145) 
**A@ 21 (from an earlier post - #145) 
A@ 22/2 
**AVF 3 


CLUMSY FOULUP 

**SS3 11 
**SS3 12 
**SS3 19 
**SS3 20 
**SS3 25 
**SS3 26 
**SS3 27 
**SS3 28 
**SS3 29 
**SS3 30 
**SS3 31 
SS3 53 


Note to newcomers. Just to explain what my postings areas an avid Marvelist I had my own version of this Marvel Chronology Project (MCP). I am now comparing the two, and for all character entries in the MCP, I am checking if I have any appearances that may have been overlooked. Validating them. Chronologizing them. Posting them (so others have an opportunity to refute or comment). The aim... to help in the completeness of this magnificent piece of information engineering! 



#174 and fini! 

That's the last post in this series. I am now available for other projects. Just not sure what yet!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Apr 2004 05:33 pm   
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Just figured I'd say congratulations, Arthur! You've finished another milestone! 

Now to see what you find to do next! The suspense is killing me. :smile:

And now I'll go off and ponder just who the heck Clumsy Foulup is...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Apr 2004 10:02 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
And now I'll go off and ponder just who the heck Clumsy Foulup is... 
<<<


I believe he was a post-Supreme Intelligence Kree Emperor. Check out Steve Englehart's run on Silver Surfer (vol. 3).

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2004 07:36 am    Post subject: next...
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

I can't believe it took me 2 years!! my first post was May 2002! 

But now that I finished the character audit, I thought maybe I'd take one of my more nostalgic titles and do a full series audit. It seems to me like I have reference in issue notes to more flashbacks that are listed, particularly in the titles from the first decade of the MU. Possibly they're more rehashing than true Flashbacks (I wasn't as detailed 20 years ago!), but I won't know for sure until I do some research. (Avengers? Iron man?) 

On top of that, today is my last day at the office for ever! And I am in the process of building a retirement home in the country - with lots of space for my comic collection. They're currently in a room with a 4 foot high ceiling so it's a real pain (figuratively and literally) to pull issues for research. The house should be finished in 3-4 months so real soon I'll have plenty of time to spend on my favourite hobby!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2004 08:28 am    Post subject: Clumsy Foulup
By dimadick

"And now I'll go off and ponder just who the heck Clumsy Foulup is..." 

At least according to the following profile of him, Clumsy was a crew member of Captain Reptyl who eventually assassinated his own leader. He succeeded Nenora as the ruler of the Kree and was in turn succeeded by Ael-Dunn and Dar-Benn. He made his last appearance in a story called "The fool on the throne", published back in August, 1991. 

For more details see:http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/foulupcl.htm 

For Nenora see:http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/nenora.htm

			*	*	*

Thread 52

Posted: 30 Apr 2004 06:10 pm    Post subject: Merlin, Merlyn; another piece to a.....
By Scathach80

Is this recent Avengers storyline the first meeting between Morgan Le Fay and Brian Braddock? 

I find this interesting, that this is the first time Morgan Le Fay has crossed swords with the Captain Britain Corps version of Otherworld/Avalon, because of the fact that Namor#62 gave an origin for Morgan and Merlin which placed much doubt on the Merlin of Camelot being the same being as the Merlin of Otherworld (see link). 
http://www.geocities.com/ratmmjess/merlin.html 

A lot of people found this origin strange; however it was backed up later events in that storyline (namely, Morgan Le Fay did in fact raise her island). 

If anyone finds it strange that an Atlantean-derived culture would call itself Avalon, one should remember that the word "Avalon" comes from Celtic myth, and that the Atlanteans are the ancestors of the Celtic peoples, as established in the Conan comics. Conan's people, the Cimmerians, were descended from the Atlanteans, and the Cimmerians in turn were the ancestors of the Celts. Conan the Barbarian I#74 on page 23 notes that Mannanan and Lir served as gods of the sea, and were passed down to the Cimmerians from the Atlanteans. 

The origin of Merlyn from Excalibur I#50 seemed too different from Namor I#62. However, since it has been established that Merlyn goes around masquerading as the Merlin equivalent of each Earth that he deals with (for example, he impersonated the red-head Myrr of Earth-238), I guess we could say that Earth-616 had its own Merlin that Merlyn impersonated. 

There was a quite discussion about the connection between Merlin and Merlyn a while ago, so I thought this might be of interest.

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Thread 53

Posted: 01 Apr 2004 02:36 pm    Post subject: Incredible Hulk in 1985-86. (Issues 314-323)
By Ocean Doot

Hey MCP folks, 

A while back I was talking on this forum about my own personal pet project to chronologize the Hulk from issue 314-319. Someone (cant recall who, and I dont see the archives from that time anywhere, sorry) suggested that even though my stuff probably wont jive entirely with the greater work here at the MCP (on account of Im concentrating just on the Hulk, and ignoring temporal references in any other contemporaneous Marvel titles), I should still post my findings, as they might be somewhat helpful when yall go about chronologizing the larger Marvel Universe comics that are contemporaneous with my chosen Hulk window. 

Well, Im just about done! So, heres my findings for the first ten comics (314-323) in the cycle, and if yall like em, Ill post ten more the next time Im online, and so forth. If this is useless to everyone here, then I shall simply stop, and will take no offense. :smile:

So, here we go. One note  I wanted to work in all the references to lunar phases that occur in those early Hulks, and make them work (because lunar phases actually affected story events around the 330s and 340s). In order to make that work, I had to pick a specific year to work in. I chose to begin issue 314 in 1995, because at a rough glance against an online lunar calendar, that seemed like a year that would fit the most important moon-related incidents. If this is bothersome, just in your head, replace 1995 with a year in which the days of the week and the cycles of the moon are exactly the same as they were in 1995. Oh, and the dates on the right are the actual publishing dates, which I included just for completeness sake. 

Here we go, then ... hope this is of interest to someone. (Im a novice to this chronologizing stuff.) 

- Jason Powell 

------------------------------------ 

Friday, June 30, 1995 
TIH 314, pg 1-6 (August 1985) 
[Season described as being high summer. The Hulk is spotted leaping through Colorado. Doc Samson leaves Northwestern University to go fight him. Later, issue 325 will describe Samsons departure from NWU as happening right in the middle of finals. Presumably, the NWU of the Marvel Universe ends spring term fairly late.] 

Saturday, July 1, 1995 
TIH 314, pg 7-22 (August 1985) 
[It is twelve hours after Samson left the University, making it morning of the next day. Samson fights and defeats the Hulk. Meanwhile, Betty has a fight with her boyfriend, Ramon.] 

Thursday, Aug 24, 1995 
TIH 315 (Sept 1985) 
[Eight weeks after Samsons fight with the Hulk in the previous issue, Samson physically separates Banner from the Hulk. Banner goes into a coma and is taken to a nearby hospital. The Hulk is captured by SHIELD, who intends to kill him. Samson frees the Hulk, who subsequently goes on a rampage. Betty shows up at the hospital where Bruce is staying, having apparently left Ramon.] 

Saturday, Aug 26, 1995 
TIH 316 (Oct 1985) 
[Two days after the Hulk and Banner were split. The Avengers battle the mindless Hulk, and then allow Samson to attempt to rein him in solo. Meanwhile -- with the help of Betty, She-Hulk and a doctor named Fischer -- Banner comes out of his coma.] 

Monday, Sept 18, 1995 
TIH 317, pg 1-20 (Nov 1985) 
[A few weeks after the split of issue 315, Banner has taken charge of gamma base and has gathered five scientists to be his team of Hulkbusters. Betty is on Gamma Base with him. Samson is still chasing the Hulk. Note that Banner is seen writing in his journal this issue, and the date at the top says November 18. This cannot be correct, based on the chronology of the next twelve or thirteen issues. However, we will soon learn that Banners mental acuity has been in decline since his molecular split with the Hulk, and hes unable to concentrate and focus. I propose that he simply made an error. Perhaps he saw a calendar somewhere that said 9/18, and in a rush to write his journal entry, he wrote November in his journal, rather than September. (The word November comes from the same root as the Latin for nine, after all; Banner, as a scientist, would probably have a good grounding in Latin, and perhaps this is what confused him in his poor mental state.)] 

Thursday, Sept 21, 1995 
TIH 317, pg. 21-22 (Nov 1985) 
[After having spent a few days at Gamma Base, the five scientists who arrived on Monday agree to become Banners new Hulkbusters. Meanwhile, Banner proposes to Betty.] 

Tuesday, Oct 3, 1995 
TIH 318 (Dec 1985) 
[It is two weeks after Bruce proposed to Betty, and Betty finally says yes. Meanwhile, during a training mission, the Hulkbusters accidentally cross paths with Doc Samson, and the ensuing confusion ends in one of the Hulkbusters being killed.] 

Sunday, Oct 8, 1995 
TIH 319 (Jan 1986) 
[Rick shows up for Bruce and Bettys wedding. Its happening today, five days after Betty agreed to it. Theyre anxious to tie the knot, apparently. Thunderbolt Ross shows up, armed, to try and stop the wedding, and shoots Rick Jones. Betty talks Ross out of his frenzy, and the wedding continues through to a conclusion. Meanwhile, Samson and the Hulkbusters both fight the Hulk.] 

Tuesday, Oct 10, 1995 
TIH 320 (Feb 1986) 
TIH 321 (Mar 1986) 
TIH 322 (Apr 1986) 
TIH 323 (May 1986) 
[Two days after the wedding. Ross and Rick are both in the hospital: the former in a mental ward, the latter recovering from his bullet wound. Samson and the Hulkbusters catch up with the Hulk, who escaped them in the previous issue. Betty tries to convince Bruce to go on a Honeymoon cruise with her. He agrees, and they depart in short order (but first -- if were to believe a photographic reference in issue 340  Bruce and Betty pose for a picture that they give to head SHIELD agent Clay Quartermain, presumably in gratitude for letting them take some time off). The cruise, however, is cut short when Bruce falls ill. He begins to lose molecular cohesion as a result of his split with the Hulk. Meanwhile, the Avengers show up to aid Samson and the Hulkbusters in battling the Hulk. Eventually, they succeed in defeating him; theyre about to kill him, when Betty arrives to tell them that if they kill the Hulk, Bruce will die too. Finally, the Avengers assist in remerging Bruces molecules with the Hulks; at which point Bruce falls unconscious. Note: At one point, Doc Samson describes the events of issues 314-319 as having happened in the last few weeks, but this blatantly contradicts several temporal references made over the course of those issues. Samson, at the time he says this, has been flying around in a helicopter for days, so perhaps the thin air is affecting his memory a bit. He also refers to today as Day Six at one point. This means that Oct 5 was Day One  its not clear what the significance is of Oct 5. Perhaps its Samsons birthday?]

			*	*	*

Thread 54

Posted: 01 Apr 2004 09:55 pm    Post subject: X-51 #7
By Dhall

X-51 #7 

February 2000 

Main Character: 
Machine Man (Last App. X-51 #6, Next App. Fb in X-51 #8, then in X-51 #8) 

Guest Stars: 
Jill Spalding (Last App. X-51 #6, Next App. Fb in X-51 #8, then in X-51 #8) 
Peter Spalding (Last App. X-51 #6, Next App. Fb in X-51 #8, then in X-51 #8) 

X-Men: 
Shadowcat (Last App. UX 377, Next App. Fb in X-51 #8) 
Nightcrawler (Last App. UX 377, Next App. Fb in X-51 #8) 
Angel (Last App. UX 377, Next App. Fb in X-51 #8) 
Psylocke (Last App. UX 377, Next App. Fb in X-51 #8) 
Jubilee (Last App. UX 377, Next App. Fb in X-51 #8) 
Wolverine (Last App. UX 377, Next App. Fb in X-51 #8) 

Villains: 
Henry Peter Gyrich (Last App. X-51 #6, Next App. X-51 #8) 
Black King (Last App. X-51 #6, Next App. X:HC 4) 
Tessa (Last App. X-51 #5, Next App. X:HC 4) 

Aim agents 
Sentinels 
Hellfire club goons 
Others: 
Nurse Coerbell (Next App. Fb in X-51 #8, then in X-51 #8)

			*	*	*

Thread 55

Posted: 01 Apr 2004 09:58 pm    Post subject: X-51 #8
By Dhall

X-51 #8 

March 2000 

Main Character: 
Machine Man (Last App. X-51 #7, Appears in flashback only, , then in the main part of this issue, Next App. X-51 #9) 

Guest Stars: 
Angel (Last App. X-51 #7, Appears in flashback only, Next App. UX Annual 1999) 
Psylocke (Last App. X-51 #7, Appears in flashback only, Next App. UX 379) 
Shadowcat (Last App. X-51 #7, Appears in flashback only, Next App. UX Annual 1999) 
Nightcrawler (Last App. X-51 #7, Appears in flashback only, Next App. UX Annual 1999) 
Jubilee (Last App. X-51 #7, Appears in flashback only, Next App. UX Annual 1999) 
Wolverine (Last App. X-51 #7, Appears in flashback only, Next App. UX Annual 1999) 

Villains: 
Sentinels 
Henry Peter Gyrich (Last App. X-51 #7, Next App. TB 33-FB-BTS) 

Others: 
Nurse Coerbell (Last App. X-51 #7, Appears in fb in this issue, then in the main part of this issue) 
Jill Spalding (Last App. X-51 #7, Appears in fb in this issue, then in the main part of this issue) 
Peter Spalding(Last App. X-51 #7, Appears in fb in this issue, then in the main part of this issue)

			*	*	*

Thread 56

Posted: 03 Apr 2004 10:32 am    Post subject: X-51 #3
By Dhall

X-51 #3 

October 1999 
X.E.R.O. Tolerance 


Main Character: 
Machine Man (also appears in fbs to sometime after its origin) (Last App. X-51 #2, Next App. X-51 #4) 

Villains: 
Henry Peter Gyrich (Last App. X-51 #2, Next App. BTS in X-51 #4) 
Black King (Last App. X-51 #2, Next App. X-51 #4) 
Tessa (Last App. FB in X-51 #2, Next App. X-51 #4) 

Others: 
Todd Ritter 
Henry Ritter 
Abel Stack (in fb) 

Flashback: Abel stack puts a face onto Machine Mans robot body

			*	*	*

Thread 57

Posted: 01 Apr 2004 10:08 pm    Post subject: X-51 #0
By Dhall

X-51 #0 


Characters: 
Tessa (Last App. XM 28, Next App. Flashback. in X-51 #2, then she appears in X-51 #3) 
Black King (Last App. S-M 94, Next BTS in Flashback in X-51 #2, Then he appears in X-51 #1) 

Machine Man (Last App. TB 29, Appears only in Fb in this issue, next Apps. in UX 371, then X 91, then X '99, then he appears in FB in X-51 #1, then in the main part of X-51 #1) 

Hellfire club goons in fb (Richter, McCord, Diaz, Travis named) 


Machine Man 
TB 29 
*X-51 0-FB 
UX 371 
X 91 
X '99

Last edited by Dhall on 03 Apr 2004 06:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 01 Apr 2004 10:52 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I took this issue to occur BEFORE X @'99. 

After all, in X@'99, Machine Man is completely destroyed, and he's not put back together again until X-51 #1-2. 

Also, isn't he in his old body in this issue? From X-51 #1-on he's in that new Sentinel/LMD hybrid body. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Apr 2004 06:32 pm 
By Dhall

Yes you are correct, the Flashback in this issue (which has Machine Man, he's not actually in the main part of the issue) must take place before X @99. I'll edit the listing in my original post. 

Thanks! 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Thread 58

Posted: 03 Apr 2004 06:37 pm    Post subject: X-51 # 1
By Dhall

X-51 #1 


September 1999 


Characters: 
Machine Man (X-51) (Last App. X 99, Appears in fb in this issue, then in the main part of this issue, Next App. X-51 #2) 
Doctor Haines (in fb only) 
Senator Myles Brickman (in fb only) (Last App. UX #359, Next App. X-51 #4) 
Henry Peter Gyrich (Last App. ?, Next App. X-51 #2) 
Black King (Last Apps. X-51 #0, then in fb in X-51 #2, Next App. X-51 #2) 
Colonel Avery Walsh (First App. ?, Next App. X-51 #2) 
General Kragowski (Kragg)(in fb only) 

Mystique (Last Apps. UX 359, then FB in X-51 #2, Next App. X-51 #2) 
Blob (Last Apps. UX 364, then FB in X-51 #2, Next App. X-51 #2) 
Mimic (Last Apps. UX 364, then FB in X-51 #2, Next App. X-51 #2) 
Toad (Last Apps. UX 364, then FB in X-51 #2, Next App. X-51 #2) 
Post (Last Apps. UX 364, then FB in X-51 #2, Next App. X-51 #2)

			*	*	*

Thread 59

Posted: 03 Apr 2004 06:46 pm    Post subject: X-51 #2
By Dhall

Yes I realize that this issue is already listed in the MCP, but not all of the flashbacks in this issue are listed in the MCP. (Example Mystique's listing.) 
Dave Hall 

X-51 #2 

September 1999 

Main Character: 
Machine Man (Last App. X51 #1, Next App. X51 #3) (Also Appears in Fb, which is AFTER X99, but before X-51 #1) 

Villains: 
Mystique (Last App. X51 #1, Next App. X 93-FB) (Also Appears in Fb, which preceeds her app. in X 51 #1) 
Mimic (Last App. X51 #1, Next App. X-51 #6) (Also Appears in Fb, which preceeds his app. in X 51 #1) 
Post (Last App. X51 #1, Next App. Cable2 #72) (Also Appears in Fb, which preceeds his app. in X 51 #1) 
Blob (Last App. X51 #1, Next App. ASM2 #11) (Also Appears in Fb, which preceeds his app. in X 51 #1) 
Toad (Last App. X51 #1, Next App. UX 379) (Also Appears in Fb, which precedes his app. in X 51 #1) 


Black King (Last App. X51 #1, Next App. X-51 #3) (Also Appears BTS in Fb, which precedes his app. in X 51 1, but is AFTER his app. in X 51 #0) 

Henry Peter Gyrich (Last App. X-51 #1, Next App. X-51 #3) 
Col. Walsh (Last App. X-51 #1, Next App. ?) 

Tessa (Last App. X-51 #0, Appears in fb only, Next App. X-51 #3)

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Thread 60

Posted: 03 Apr 2004 06:26 pm    Post subject: X-51 #4 and #5
By Dhall

X-51 #4 

November 1999 

With friends like these 

Main Character: 
Machine Man (Last App. X-51 #3, Next App. X-51 #5) 

Guest Stars: 
Edwin Jarvis (Last App. ?, Next App. X-51 #5) 
Mr. Freeman (the Avengers govt liason) (Last App. ?, Next App. X-51 #5) 
Justice (he has a cast on his leg) (Last App. ?, Next App. X-51 #5) 
Firestar (Last App. ?, Next App. X-51 #5) 
Vision (Last App. ?, Next App. X-51 #5) 


Villains: 
Tessa (Last App. X-51 #3, Next App. X-51 #5) 
Black King (Last App. X-51 #3, Next App. X-51 #5) 
Henry Peter Gyrich (BTS only, talking to Mr. Freeman about Machine Man) Last App. X-51 #3, Next App. X-51 #6) 
Senator Myles Brickman (Last App. Fb in X-51 #1, Next App. ?)

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Apr 2004 06:28 pm    
By Dhall

X-51 #5 

December 1999 

Main Character: 
Machine Man (Last App. X-51 #4, Next App. X-51 #6) 

Guest Stars: 
Vision (Last App. X-51 #4, Next App. ?) 
Firestar (Last App. X-51 #4, Next App. ?) 
Justice (Last App. X-51 #4, Next App. ?) 
Duane Freeman (Last App. X-51 #4, Next App. ?) 
Edwin Jarvis (Last App. X-51 #4, Next App. ?) 

Villains: 
Tessa (Last App. X-51 #4, Next App. X-51 #7) 
Black King (Last App. X-51 #4, Next App. X-51 #6) 
Otomo (Last App. Fb in X-51 #6, Next App. X-51 #6) 


Okay, now someone else will have to help out with the avengers characters. Justice has a cast on his leg, so #4 and 5 happen before A3 24, but I don't know exactly when. 

David Hall

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Apr 2004 12:04 am    
By John Simons

A quick check of my Avengers box shows these issues filed between IM3 25 and A3 23. Which would make the character chronologies: 

Vision (Last App. IM3 25, Next App. A3 23) 
Firestar (Last App. IM3 25, Next App. A3 23) 
Justice (Last App. GENX 59, Next App. A3 23) 
Duane Freeman (Last App. A3 14, Next App. A3 24) 
Edwin Jarvis (Last App. GENX 59, Next App. A3 23) 

Does that work?

			*	*	*

Thread 61

Posted: 04 Apr 2004 11:19 pm    Post subject: Warlock3 6-9
By Dhall

Warlock (vol.3) #6 

March 2000 

Regular Cast: 
Warlock (Last App. Warlock3 #5, Next App. Warlock3 #7) 
Hope (Last App. Warlock3 #5, Next App. Warlock3 #7) 
Psimon (Last App. Warlock3 #5, Next App. Warlock3 #7) 

Guest Stars: 
Shadowcat (Last App. Warlock 3 #5, Next App. UX 372) 
Spider-Man (Last App. Warlock 3 #5, Next App. ASM2 #9) 


Villains: 
Mainspring (Last App. Warlock3 #5, Next App. Warlock3 #7) 
Bastions severed, but still living head (so this happens AFTER Astonishing X-Men #2, Next App. Warlock3 #7)

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Apr 2004 11:20 pm    Post subject: Warlock (Vol.3) #7
By Dhall

Warlock (Vol.3) #7 
April 2000 

Regular Cast: 
Warlock (Last App. Warlock3 #6, Next App. Warlock3 #8) 
Psimon (Last App. Warlock3 #6, Next App. Warlock3 #8) 
Hope (Last App. Warlock3 #6, Next App. Warlock3 #8) 
Chi-Chee (Last in Warlock3 #5, Next App. Warlock 3 #8) 

Guest Stars: 
Wolfsbane (Last App. XU 21, Next App. Warlock 3 #8) 
Moira MacTaggert (Last App. GAM 399, Next App. UX 375) 

Villains: 
Mainspring (Last App. Warlock 3 #6, Next App. Warlock 3 #8) 
Bastion (as a living severed head) (becomes Template this issue) (Last App. Warlock 3 #6, Next App. Warlock 3 #8) 
Magus II (Last App. New Mutants #50, Next App. Warlock 3 #8)

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Apr 2004 11:21 pm    Post subject: Warlock Vol.3 #8
By Dhall

Warlock Vol.3 #8 

May 2000 

Regular Cast: 
Warlock (Last App. Warlock 3 #7, Next App. Warlock 3 #9) 
Hope (Last App. Warlock 3 #7, Next App. Warlock 3 #9) 
Psimon (Last App. Warlock 3 #7, Next App. Warlock 3 #9) 
Chi-Chee (Last App. Warlock 3 #7, Next App. Warlock 3 #9) 

Guest Stars: 
Wolfsbane (Last App. Warlock 3 #7, Next App. Warlock 3 #9) 
Spider-Man 
Wasp 
Scarlet Witch 
Iron Man 
Giant-Man 
She-Hulk 
Triathlon (mentioned as being present, seen only as a silhouette on page 6) 
Warbird (mentioned as being present, seen only as a silhouette on page 6) 


Villains: 
Mainspring (Dies this issue) (Last App. Warlock3 #7, no further apps.) 
Bastion (Template) (Last App. Warlock 3 #7, Next App. ?) 
Magus II (Last App. Warlock 3 #7, Next App. Warlock 3 #9) 


Okay, once again I am asking for help with the Avengers, and Spider-Man's chronology. Thanks!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Apr 2004 11:22 pm    Post subject: Warlock Vol.3 #9
By Dhall

Warlock Vol.3 #9 

June 2000 

Regular Cast: 
Warlock (Last App. Warlock 3 #8, Next App. ?) 
Psimon (Last App. Warlock 3 #8, Next App. ?) 
Hope (Last App. Warlock 3 #8, Next App. ?) 
Chi-Chee (Last App. Warlock 3 #8, Next App. ?) 

Guest Stars: 
Wolfsbane (Last App. Warlock 3 #8, Next App. XU #27) 

Villains: 
Magus II (Last App. Warlock 3 #8, Next App. ?) 
Psiren (Last App. Warlock3 #3, Next App. ?) 
Other psi-cops

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Apr 2004 11:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Warlock Vol.3 #8
By John Simons

Dhall wrote: 

>>>
Okay, once again I am asking for help with the Avengers, and Spider-Man's chronology. Thanks! 
<<<

I have this issue filed between A3 27 and A3 28 in my box. They are the before and after for all of the Avengers characters in this story: 

Wasp 
Scarlet Witch 
Iron Man 
Giant-Man 
She-Hulk 
Triathlon (mentioned as being present, seen only as a silhouette on page 6) 
Warbird (mentioned as being present, seen only as a silhouette on page 6) 

By the way, Iron Man misspeaks when he calls Hank "Giant-Man" in this story, by this point Hank has once again switched names to Goliath. (Can't say I can fault Tony for being confused, though...) Also Goliath's costume is colored wrong throughout the entire issue...! 
Can't help with Spidey, not my corner of the universe...

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Apr 2004 06:15 am    Post subject: Re: Warlock Vol.3 #8
By Starman

I checked with my Spider-Man collection and I think I now have a suggestion where to place Warlock Vol.3 #8. In May 2000 ASM2 17 and PPSM2 17 was in the "Venom trying to get vengence on Sinister Six" storyline that began in PPSM2 16. In ASM2 18 Spider-Man's costume gets stolen. So my estimate of where WLOCK3 8 should be placed is between PPSM2 17 and ASM2 18. 

I do also have a suggestion to the MCP that ASM '00 is moved from it's placement between PPSM2 17 and ASM2 18 to between ASM2 16 and PPSM 16 thus making both the first and second story (ASM '00/2) of this annual happen around the same time. I can't see any problem with this in Spider-Man's chronology, and it doesn't require any change in any other characters' chronology. 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
- - - 
ASM2 16 
***ASM '00*** 
PPSM2 16 
ASM2 17 
PPSM2 17 
***WLOCK3 8*** 
ASM2 18 
- - -
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Apr 2004 08:11 am    Post subject: 
By Dhall

That's what I love about this board, no matter what the question, someone can answer it. 

Thanks John, and Starman. 


Dave Hall

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Apr 2004 10:46 am
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Shouldn't this be Warlock volume FOUR? 

There was a six-issue reprint series in the 80s or early 90s that collected some of Adam Warlock's early appearances ... it too was titled "Warlock". Even though it's purely reprints, shouldn't it be considered "Warlock vol. 2", bumping the Tom Lyle-drawn series to vol. 3? 

If I recall, we skipped a volume number for "Marvel Super Heroes vol. 2", which was also purely reprints... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Apr 2004 12:24 pm    
By Dhall

I would vote for skipping reprint series, but this is a very good question. 

Either way, it's a little weird that Marvel has published several series called 'Warlock' but they're about different characters.....

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Apr 2004 12:32 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The New Mutants' Warlock and his father Magus were both deliberately named in homage to Adam Warlock and the Magus. Since Adam was dead at that time (and had been for years, with no prospect of recovery), they didn't anticipate confusion.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 62

Posted: 06 Apr 2004 10:00 pm    Post subject: Black Sun: X-Men
By Dhall

Since #1 is already in the MCP, and I agree with it's placement, I will start with issue #2. 

X-Men: Black Sun 2 

November 2000 

X-Men: 
Shadowcat (Last in BS:X 1, Next in BS:X 5) 
Phoenix IV (Last in XU 27, Next in BS:X 4) 
Beast (Last in XU 27, Next in BS:X 4) 
Angel (Last in Gambit 2000 ???, Next BS: X 5) 
Iceman (Last in UX 380, Next in BS:X 3) 
Polaris (Last in M:DS 4, Next in BS:X 3) 
Colossus (Last in XU 27, Next in BS:X 4) 
Nightcrawler (Last in BS:X 1, Next in BS: X 4) 
Sunfire (Last in BS:X 1, Next in BS:X 3) 
Banshee (Last in BS:X 1, Next in BS:X 3) 
Storm (Last in BS:X 1, Next in BS:X 5) 
Psylocke (Last in X 99-BTS, Next in BS:X 3) 
Thunderbird III (Last in XU 27, Next in BS: X 3) 

Guest Stars: 
Magik II (Last in BS:X 1, Next in BS:X 2) 

Villains: 
Belasco (Last in BS:X 1, Next in BS:X 5) 
Pilgrimm (Last X75, Next in BS:X 3) 

NGarai

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Apr 2004 10:04 pm    Post subject: Black Sun:X-Men 3
By Dhall

X-Men: Black Sun 3 

November 2000 

X-Men: 
Thunderbird III (Last in BS:X 2, Next in BS:X 4) 
Psylocke (Last in BS:X 2, Next in BS:X 5) 
Wolverine (Last in UX 380, Next in BS:X 4) 
Iceman (Last in BS:X 2, Next in BS:X 5) 
Sunfire (Last in BS:X 2, Next in BS:X 5) 
Banshee (Last in BS:X 2, Next in BS:X 5) 
Polaris (Last in BS:X 2, Next in BS:X 5) 
Sunfire (Last in BS:X 2, Next in BS:X 5) 

Guests: 
Magik II (Last in BS:X 2, Next in BS:X 3) 
Dr. Alda Huxley (Last in M:DS 4, Next in ???) 
Magneto (Last in M:DS 4, Next in UX 388) 

Villains: 
NGarai 
Pilgrimm (Last in BS:X 2, Next in BS:X 4)

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Apr 2004 10:07 pm    Post subject: Black Sun: X-Men 4
By Dhall

X-Men: Black Sun 4 

November 2000 

X-Men: 
Thunderbird III (Last in BS:X 3, Next in BS:X 5) 
Wolverine (Last in BS:X 2, Next in BS:X 5) 
Beast (Last in BS:X 2, Next in BS:X 5) 
Phoenix IV (Last in BS:X 2, Next in BS:X 5) 
Colossus (Last in BS:X 2, Next in BS:X 5) 
Nightcrawler (Last in BS:X 2, Next in BS:X 5) 
Rogue (Last in Gam 16-FB, next in X 100) 
Gambit (Last in Gam 20 ???, Next in UX 381) 
Cable (Last in XU 27, Next in UX 381) 
Danielle Moonstar (Last in X 99, Next in X 102) 


Guests: 
Magik II (Last in BS:X 3, Next in BS:X 5) 

Villains: 
NGarai 
Pilgrimm (Last in BS:X 3, Next in BS:X 5)

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Apr 2004 10:11 pm    Post subject: Black Sun: X-Men 5
By Dhall

X-Men: Black Sun 5 

November 2000 

X-Men: 
Thunderbird III (Last in BS:X 4, Next in X 100) 
Wolverine (Last in BS:X 4, Next in W2 150) 
Phoenix IV (Last in BS:X 4, Next in UX 381) 
Storm (Last in BS:X 2, Next in UX 381) 
Sunfire (Last in BS:X 4, Next in IFW 2) 
Colossus (Last in BS:X 4, Next in X 100) 
Nightcrawler (Last in BS:X 4, Next in Magik2 1) 
Banshee (Last in BS:X 4, Next in GenX 74) 
Angel (Last in BS:X 2, Next in X 101) 
Beast (Last in BS:X 4, Next in UX 381) 
Iceman (Last in BS:X 4, Next in XMF 1) 
Polaris (Last in BS:X 3, Next in X 112) 
Psylocke (Last in BS:X 3, Next in IFW 2) 
Shadowcat (Last in BS:X 1m Next in X 100) 

Guest: 
Magik II (Last in BS:X 4, Next in Magik2 1) 

Villains: 
Belasco (Last in BS:X 2, Next in ???) 
NGarai 
Pilgrimm (Last in BS:X 4, Next in ???)

			*	*	*

Thread 63

Posted: 09 Apr 2004 09:20 pm    Post subject: X-Man 69
By Dhall

I've posted some various corrections regarding the Earth-998 characters, in the Marvel Universe thread. Here is the write-up for X-Man 69. 

X-Man 69 

November 2000 

Main Character: 
X-Man (Last App. XM 68, Next in XM 70) 

Guest Characters: 
Grey, Nate-998 (Last in XM 68, Next in XM 70) 
Forge-998 (Appears as a corpse only) (Also Appears in flashback which precedes his app. In XM 63) 

Villains: 
Scratch-998 (Last in XM 68, Next in XM 70) 
Jean Grey-998 (Last in XM 68, Next in XM 70) (Also appears in flashback in this issue, which precedes her app. In XM 5) 

Flashback: Jean Grey (998) appeared on earth 998 posing as the reincarnation of Maddy Pryor-998, conquered half the world, and had Forge create the Interscope, and other devices to allow her to travel at will across the worlds. This flashback precedes her appearance as Maddy Pryor-616 in X-Man 5. (sigh.)

			*	*	*

Thread 64

Posted: 12 Apr 2004 11:11 am    Post subject: Elektra #32-35
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

FEVER 
ELEKTRA #32 (March 2004) by Rob Rodi, Steven Cummings and Sandu Florea 
ELEKTRA #33 (April 2004) by Rodi, Cummings and Florea 
ELEKTRA #34 (May 2004) by Rodi, Cummings and Florea 

GENERAL COMMENTS: 
The final proper storyline. This picks up immediately on Elektra's return to the USA from Naou. Internal clues suggest the story starts on a Friday - it certainly spans a weekend. 

Green trees. The evening in issue #32 has a full moon. (When was the last time somebody published a comic with a crescent moon...?) 

SYNOPSIS: 
* ELEKTRA #33, pp12-13 (flashback). Backstory. New York - crimelord Evgeny Bezzubenkov attends a meeting with the Montenegri family. Elektra comes in and slaughters everyone in the Montenegri family. Evgeny is in awe of her ability. [Urishka says this was "a couple of years ago." Evgeny, who is presumably better placed to say, says it was "five or six years ago." That's as precise as it gets.] 

Characters: Elektra, Evgeny Bezzubenkov 

* ELEKTRA #32, pp1-3. Friday? Elektra arrives back in New York after a 20-hour flight from Naou. She heads home and, as she's showering, completely misses a TV report about a dangerous fever spreading through south-east Asia - she ought to be seeking medical attention. Elektra is phoned by a potential client (Urishka Bezzubenkov, as we learn in issue #34). She tells him that "I'm booked solid for the next few months, unless this is something I can handle before Monday. I've got the weekend free." They agree to meet "this afternoon." 

Characters: Elektra, Urishka Bezzubenkov (voice only) 

* ELEKTRA #34, p5pn3 to p7pn2 (flashback). Afternoon, same day. Elektra meets Urishka in a cafe. Urishka hires her to kill his father, Evgeny, so that he will inherit the family crime business. Urishka explains that Evgeny saw Elektra in action a couple of years ago and has lived in terror of her ever since - he feels this will give Elektra a vital psychological advantage. With uncharacteristic lack of co-ordination, Elektra spills her coffee; she attributes it to jet lag. 

Characters: Elektra, Urishka Bezzubenkov. 

* ELEKTRA #32, pp4-22. Next day - Saturday? Barrington Beach, New Jersey. Urishka tails sullenly around after his father Evgeny as they wander around the seafront. Evgeny owns the town and is proud of his old-school crime empire. Urishka feels that this line of business is needlessly wasteful and wants to "go digital", which will be more profitable. Evgeny has no interest - he likes being a local celebrity. At a brothel, Evgeny picks up Carlotta, a reluctant and inexperienced prostitute. He takes Urishka and Carlotta back to his house for lunch; Elektra tails them. 

When they arrive at Evgeny's house, Carlotta makes a break for it. Evgeny's henchmen open fire, but she evades them and escapes. Elektra cases the house, and misses a branch while swinging between trees. She falls to the ground, and again attributes it to jet lag. 

Night falls. Elektra heads for the roof of the building, planning to break in through the skylight. Her fever is setting in badly, and she draws attention to herself. After a skirmish with Evgeny's henchmen, Elektra kills one and injures another. Realising that something is badly wrong, she takes refuge in the garden. 

Characters: Elektra, Evgeny Bezzubenkov, Urishka Bezzubenkov, Kevin and Mickey (Evgeny's henchmen), Carlotta, Amanda (the brothel madam) 

* ELEKTRA #33. Same night. Mickey, the surviving henchman, reports back to Evgeny. Evgeny recognises Elektra from Mickey's description, and sends for reinforcements in a panic. At first Evgeny thinks (correctly) that one of his men has turned on him. Urishka talks him out of that idea. Evgeny and his henchmen go round the town demanding to know who put out the hit. Eventually Evgeny returns to his fortified home to pace up and down, and panic. Finally Elektra tries to break into Evegny's room through the skylight, but the fever overcomes her. She crashes through the window and lands unconscious at the floor. Evgeny is baffled. 

Characters: Elektra, Evgeny Bezzubenkov, Urishka Bezzubenkov, Sergei, Mickey, Amanda, Carlotta. 

* ELEKTRA #34, p1-p20pn3. Next day - Sunday? Evgeny interrogates Elektra (and has apparently been at it all morning before the issue starts). Urishka is afraid that she will reveal who hired her. Elektra begins to hallucinate and thinks that she is being tortured by mythical creatures. Evgeny finally realises that Elektra is diseased, and that he has her blood on him. He races off to clean, and his guards follow. Left alone with her, Urishka cuts Elektra loose, planning to let her go in order to avoid her exposing him. Hallucinating, Elektra sees everyone around her as an attacker. She kills Urishka, Evgeny and everyone else. Then she returns to her motel room and passes out. 

Characters: Elektra, Evgeny Bezzubenkov, Urishka Bezzubenkov, Sergei, Mickey 

* ELEKTRA #34, p20pn4-p22. Next day - Monday? After apparently sleeping for the whole intervening time, Elektra is woken by the motel owner, who is worried about her. ("When you checked in you said you'd be staying one night. That was three days ago.") Her fever has broken. [It's unclear when Elektra actually booked herself into the motel - I'm working on the assumption that it was on Friday evening, not Saturday morning.] 

========= 

DEAD RECKONING 
ELEKTRA #35 (June 2004) by Rob Rodi, Jon Proctor and Sandu Florea 

GENERAL COMMENTS: 
This was originally supposed to be a prologue for a new storyline and change of direction for the book. Instead, the book was axed due to low sales at this point. The plot is extremely simple; most of the issue is taken up with flashbacks and illustrations of Elektra's internal monologue. 

The story lasts an hour or so. There are leaves on the trees. Elektra and Daredevil's dialogue strongly suggests that this is the third anniversary of her death:- 

Elektra: "Matt, what are you doing here?" 

Matt: "Same as you, I imagine. Paying my respects. Been three years to the day." 

Elektra: "That's absurd. You can't grieve for me. I'm not dead." 

I'll list the flashbacks seperately - most of them aren't original, anyway. 

SYNOPSIS: 
ELEKTRA #35. Elektra visits her own grave and reflects on her life. Matt Murdock also visits. When Matt tells Elektra that "you died for me a long time ago", Elektra lashes out at him and then runs off in tears. Matt begins to give chase, asking her to stop and talk, but then thinks better of it. 

Characters: Daredevil, Elektra. 

FLASHBACKS: 
p3pn1: Bullseye kills Elektra. 

p4: Elektra lies on a slab in a church while men in robes look at her. The dialogue refers to her resurrection, and I assume this is a flashback to a DG Chichester story. 

Pages 6-9 consist of Elektra wondering where her spirit went when she was dead - she has no memory of that period. 

p10pn2-3. Generic scene of Elektra killing somebody. She looks in his eyes as he dies. The background looks vaguely industrial, but it's hard to identify. Probably an original flashback. 

p11. Elektra's mother is killed by the helicopter gunship. 

p12. While her father is working, young Elektra Natchios stays with her uncle Demetrios and Aunt Alexia in the countryside. Alexia is disturbed by Elektra's name and wonders why her father would have chosen it. Elektra hears the conversation but says nothing. (Elektra is shown here playing with dolls and looks to be about three or four. Her father is named as Kostas Natchios - I believe this may be the first time he's been given a first name.) 

Characters: Elektra, Demetrios Natchios, Alexia Natchios 

p13pn1. Elektra and Kostas in an airport. She is delighted to be accompanying him on his travels, and has just visited London (apparently for the first time). She has learned English by this point. 

Characters: Elektra, Kostas Natchios 

p13pn2. Elektra trains with her first sensei, having been sent by her father to study with him. 

Charactes: Elektra 

p14pn1. Elektra meets Matt Murdock. 

p14pn2. They kiss under a full moon. 

p14pn3. Kostas Natchios is killed. 

p15pn1. Elektra scaling a mountainside. The narration reads "I abandoned myself to my destiny. I gave myself over to darkness." I assume this is her making her way to Stick's group for the first time, but it's not clear. 

p15pn2. Elektra cradles the body of her first sensei, whom she's apparently killed, and says that she is sorry. 

p16pn1-2. Elektra and Daredevil fight on a rooftop.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 Apr 2004 06:33 pm    Post subject: Crescent moons
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
(When was the last time somebody published a comic with a crescent moon...?)  
<<<


In the last few years, I've noticed only a handful of crescent moons: 

Marvel Knights Double-Shot #3 
Cable v2 #106 
Tangled Web #3 
X-Treme X-Men #6 
X-Men Unlimited #30/2 
Brotherhood #2 

Crescent moons are usually shown as waxing crescents (light on right) rather than waning crescents (light on left). 

Even rarer are half moons. I think you have to go back to Namor #59 to find one. 

Am I a lunatic, or what? :wink:
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Apr 2004 06:41 pm    Post subject: "That's absurd"
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Matt: "Same as you, I imagine. Paying my respects. Been three years to the day." 

Elektra: "That's absurd.  
<<<



That IS absurd. There's no way that only three years have passed since DD 181. But if this issue indeed occurs on an anniversary of that issue, then it should be November. If that's so, this story may occur after the current story in DD. I'm assuming Daredevil is clean shaven in this issue?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Apr 2004 02:51 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Yup, Matt is clean shaven.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Apr 2004 12:00 am
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I suggested this on the MU forum, but-- 

The dialogue doesn't SPECIFICALLY say that it's the 3rd anniversary of her death. It could be the third anniversary of something else Elektra's-death-related ... her RETURN from the grave, perhaps? 

I don't know too much about her chronology -- I'm just trying to play devil's advocate, since nobody seems to think the "three years since her death" reference is viable. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Apr 2004 06:02 am    Post subject: Elektra #35
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Given the dialogue, it's hard to think that Matt's referring to anything other than Elektra's "death" in DD 181. I think the "three year" reference is going to be a problem with any other likely reference you'd suggest, so I don't see a problem with placing ELEK 35 on the anniversary of DD 181, just a different number of years later. 

This certainly isn't the first time we've had a problem with time references to MU events that occurred a long time back; it's just a symptom of Marvel writers not wanting much time to pass in the MU, despite the fact that the cumulative effect of temporal references in all the stories they've written in the interim demand more time than they're willing to admit. 

I'm still inclined to place ELEK 35 in November (the anniversary of DD 181), several months after ELEK 34 and after the current story arc in DD. We'll see if upcoming events in DD allow this placement.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 65

Posted: 14 Apr 2004 12:00 pm    Post subject: Wolverine: Doombringer
By Dhall

Wolverine: Doombringer 
1997 


Main Character: 
Wolverine (Last in Wolverine2 #3, Next in M/AGE@ 4) 

Guests Characters: 
Mariko Yashida (Last App W2 1-BTS, Appears in Flashback 2 in this issue, then in the main part of this issue,Next in XF 63) 
Silver Samurai (Last in W2 3, Next in W2 56) 
Archie Corrgian (Earliest Appearance, Next in W2 4) 

Villains: 
Doombringer (appears in fb in this issue, then in the main part of this issue, killed by Logan, no further apps.) 
Various warriors and monks 

Flashback 1: One thousand years ago, a group of warriors and monks open a portal to bring through to our Earth a creature called the Doombringer. They are stopped by another group of monks who freeze time. 

Flashback 2: A warrior (who was one of the warriors frozen in time after fb 1) comes to Mariko to ask for help. (This comes right before the main part of this issue) 

Brief Summary: 
Mariko comes to Madripoor to ask Logan for help in finding the lost city, and preventing the Doombringer from coming to Earth. Logan goes to Japan, and appeals to the Silver Samurai. Twenty of the Samurais men have left him without orders to track down the lost city. Logan and the Silver Samurai go to the jungle, flown there by Archie Corrgian. Once they find the lost city, time unfreezes, and the warriors and monks trapped in the time freeze die. Logan and the Samurai have to fight the renegade Clan Yashida warriors. The Samurai is injured, so Logan has to go and fight the Doombringer, which has made its way through the portal. After finishing it off, Logan carries the Samurai back to the plane. After the flight back to Japan, Logan visits Mariko to tell her that the threat is over.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Apr 2004 12:16 pm
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

And you placed it after W2 #3 ... why? :wink:

Show your work, kids... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Apr 2004 01:00 pm    
By Dhall

Sigh, I do not get this abuse from Russ. <grin> 

Okay 1) It has to go sometime after Wolverine2 3, since that was Silver Samurai's last appearance. 

2) In Theory it could go anywhere between W2 3 and XF 63 (Mariko's next app.) 

3) Since Logan is calling himself "Patch" and hanging around in Madripoor, the chances are that this happens sometime during the early run of the Wolverine series (though as you know, that is not conclusive evidence.) 

4) It was published in 1997, BUT it was meant to be set sometime in the past, HOWEVER there is nothing directly in the actual story saying so. (This is just what I remember being said in the promotional material when it came out.) 

5)I could make a case for putting this one later during Wolverine's long run in Marvel comics presents. (Placing it by publishing date.) If we did that, though, it becomes much less likely that Logan would be going by the name "Patch." 

David Hall

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Apr 2004 03:38 pm 
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Russ is too easy on you kids. You need discipline, dammit! :smile:

Quote: 
>>>
1) It has to go sometime after Wolverine2 3, since that was Silver Samurai's last appearance. 
<<<

I don't follow. What do you mean, SS's "last appearance"? He's made lots of appearances both before and after W2 #3. Are the events of W2 #3 referenced in Doombringer? 

Quote: 
>>>
2) In Theory it could go anywhere between W2 3 and XF 63 (Mariko's next app.) 
<<<

I don't follow this logic either. What, in Doombringer, specifies that Mariko appears AFTER W2 #3, or BEFORE XF #63? 

As far as I can tell -- the only real place it *has* to be set before is W2 #57, Mariko's death. Where are you deriving this other stuff from? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Apr 2004 05:48 pm    
By Dhall

Jeph, 
You're not following me. Sorry if I've stated some things that are opinions, as if they were facts. I should have been clearer. 

It HAS to be set sometime during the Wolverine/MCP series, as Logan is living in Madripoor. It also has to be some time during the period when he was calling himself "Patch" 

What this means is that it has to be set sometime after MCP 1-10, and before Mariko's death. 

The likely probability is that it is set sometime AFTER W2 #1-3, as after that app., Silver Samurai does not show up for many years, until W2 56. 

This means that this book published in 1997, has to fit sometime into the comics published between 1989, and 1992. 

From here on in, we can only try to narrow things down. 

From W2 1-33, Logan is living in Madripoor, and using the name "Patch," 
from W2 34-56, he is not. Now he makes enough appearances in MCP in this time, where he is in Madripoor, so we cannot draw a firm conclusion. 

To my knowledge, we never really learn when Mariko found out that Wolverine and the rest of the X-Men were alive (after faking their deaths and moving to Australia.) 

She was well aware of this by the time she appeared in XF 63. 

In this issue she knew exactly where to find Logan in Madripoor. 

Logan states in this issue, that the world thinks the X-Men are dead. 

Silver Samurai is the only one (as far as I know) who would have been in regular contact with Mariko who knew Logan was alive, and could possibly have told her. (This is another reason why I belive this book has to come somewhere after W2 1-3) 

In conclusion, for the reasons stated above, I believe this book has to occur sometime between W2 3 and 56. For that matter, since Logan is in his brown outfit, it has to occur before W2 48. 

It is most likely set between W2 3 and 33, as Logan says that he is "hidin' out here in lowtown's princess bar, calling myself "patch", something he was only doing between W2 1 and 33. (And so not what he was doing between 34 and 48!) 

I am willing to entertain any theories that will help narrow it down further! 

There is also a reference to Silver Samurai recieving the Honor Sword of the Yahsida Clan. This might help you narrow it down, but as far as I know Logan had the Honor sword in his room in Australia, until Lady Deathstrike claimed it. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Apr 2004 06:47 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Much better! Still, there's one bit I'm not following: 

Quote: 
>>>
The likely probability is that it is set sometime AFTER W2 #1-3, as after that app., Silver Samurai does not show up for many years, until W2 56. 
<<<

I still don't get how the Samurai's appearance in W2 #3 is an indicator that his appearance in "Doombringer" occurs afterwards. Why couldn't Doombringer occur before? 

So, let's see now: 

Quote: 
>>>
To my knowledge, we never really learn when Mariko found out that Wolverine and the rest of the X-Men were alive (after faking their deaths [in UX #227]) ... In this issue she knew exactly where to find Logan in Madripoor ... Logan states in this issue, that the world thinks the X-Men are dead. 
<<<

Okay -- the world learned that the X-Men were alive during the "X-Tinction Agenda", which kicked off in UX #270. So, if "the world thinks the X-Men are dead", Doombringer comes before that. Obviously then, Mariko knows the truth before the world learns it -- your supposition that the Samurai told her is likely true. 

The MCP has W2 #34 occuring just before the X-Tinction Agenda -- so your other supposition, that this occurs before W2 #33, is going to prove close to, if not on, the mark. 

Now, how's Wolvie's healing factor in "Doombringer"? If I recall correctly, Wolvie's healing factor was dealt a severe blow in UX #251 (occuring after W2 #23), one which he didn't recover from for quite a while -- and left him seeing phantoms of Nick Fury and Carol Danvers up until at least UX #261. 

If his healing factor is up to snuff, then this occurs sometime before UX #251. 

Personally, my preference for placing stories that were written much later, but fit chronologically into a much earlier window, is to place them at the tail end of the window. 

In this case, unless there are some chronological clues we've missed, I'd recommend placing the book between W2 #23 and UX #251. 

-Jeph! 
PS - I participated in this entire discussion without looking at the issue once -- or any other. If you see anything that looks like a logical error or a mistaken reference, it probably is.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Apr 2004 08:05 pm    
By Dhall

Logan's healing factor is 100%. He takes four shots at close range through the gut, and a page later, even the blood on his shirt is cleaned up. Seriously, he keeps walking the whole time, so I would put this before UX 251. (or before W2 23, as you will.) 

Also as Wolverine is in South America from W2 17-23, and comes straight back to Australia, he doesn't have time to go to Madripoor for about a week here, (remeber that a plot thread in UX 251 was that Logan could not get teleported by Gateway following W2 23, as The Reavers had already taken over the X-Men's base. He must have known that something was wrong with the X-Men, since he had to arrange for his own transport. It seems pretty explicit (in UX 251) that he came staright back to Australia.) so this is before W2 17, as well. 

See, we're narrowing it down. Sometime between W2 3 and W2 17, or between MCP 1-10 and W2 1. 

The other part is simple, This takes place during the period where Logan has a base of operatins in Madripoor at the Princess Bar, and his calling himself "Patch" This period starts in MCP 1-10, and lasts from Wolverine 1-33. 

Silver Samurai is in Wolverine 2-3. There is no direct reference to that in this issue. That means, that this issue has to happen either in between MCP 10 and W2 1, OR after W2 1-3, because A) Logan has to be calling himself "Patch" and B) It has to go either before or after Sam's app. in W2 1-3 (not DURING.) 
It cannot happen BEFORE MCP 1-10, as Logan is not calling himself "Patch" (and wearing an eyepatch) prior to his adventures in Madripoor (in MCP 1-10) 

So it's the eyepatch (not Silver Samurai) and the name "Patch" which makes me belive this has to go sometime after MCP 1-10. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Apr 2004 09:40 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

So, to simplify: 

Somewhere after M/CP #10 and before W2 #17, NOT overlapping another Silver Samurai or Mariko Yashida appearance. 

Right? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Apr 2004 09:47 pm    
By Dhall

That's correct, that's as far as I have narrowed it down......

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Apr 2004 11:36 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Then, going by my "as late as possible" general-rule, how about between "Wolverine: the Jungle Adventure" and W2 #17? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 66

Posted: 16 Apr 2004 12:53 am    Post subject: Crimson Dawn #1
By SeanCurtin

CRIMSON DAWN: PSYLOCKE AND ARCHANGEL #1 (August 1997) 
"Before the Break of Dawn" 

Characters appearing: 
Tar 
Kuragari (first appearance) 
Archangel 
Psylocke 
Gomurr the Ancient 
various Undercloaks 
Wolverine 

ARCHANGEL 
... 
X 61 
**CD 1 
CD 2 
... 

GOMURR 
X 61 
**CD 1 
CD 2 

**KURAGARI 
CD 1 
CD 2 
CD 3 
CD 4 

PSYLOCKE 
... 
X 61 
**CD 1 
CD 2 
... 

TAR 
XU 12 
**CD 1 
CD 2 

WOLVERINE 
... 
X 61 
**CD 1 
H2 454 
...

			*	*	*

Thread 67

Posted: 16 Apr 2004 12:55 am    Post subject: Daredevil: Ninja
By SeanCurtin

DAREDEVIL: NINJA #1 

Characters appearing: 
Daredevil 
Trahn (the Vietnamese woman - not named until #2) 
another unnamed member of the Seven (which is a misnomer, as next issue reveals that only five of them are alive, and one dies by the end of the series...) 

DAREDEVIL: NINJA #2 

Characters appearing: 
Daredevil 
Stone 
Trahn 
Foggy Nelson (on phone, not seen) 
the same unnamed guy from #1, plus two others 

DAREDEVIL: NINJA #3 

Characters appearing: 
Daredevil 
Stone 
Trahn 
Prince Yamato-Take (in flashback) 
the three unnamed members of the Seven (one dies - not the same one from #1) 

Updated character chronologies: 

DAREDEVIL/MATT MURDOCK 
DD:N 1 
**DD:N 2 
**DD:N 3 
FF3 36 

NELSON, FRANKLIN "FOGGY" 
A3 26 
**DD:N 2-BTS 
FF3 35 

STONE 
DD 326 
**DD:N 2 
**DD:N 3 

**TRAHN 
**DD:N 1 
**DD:N 2 
**DD:N 3 

**YAMATO-TAKE 
**DD:N 3-FB

			*	*	*

Thread 68

Posted: 16 Apr 2004 01:26 am    Post subject: Deadline LS?
By SeanCurtin

Has the MCP come to a general conclusion on where the Deadline miniseries goes into continuity? My best guess places it between TB 75 & 76, given the presence of Hawkeye, Man-Killer (if that is her tending bar in #2), Armadillo (in his original costume) and Taskmaster (in his new costume). Any thoughts? 

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Apr 2004 05:57 am    Post subject: Deadline
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

After much discussion about calendar placement, the Deadline limited series finally settled into a spot after Agent X #15, between TB 75 and 76, and between ASM2 55 and 56.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Apr 2004 01:39 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Sounds good to me. Where does Deadline fit into the Human Torch's chronology?

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Apr 2004 09:27 pm    Post subject: Deadline
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

The Torch is in Deadline between FF3 66 and 67. However, final placement of "4" (if canon) and the Human Torch series is still pending and may end up around this time.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 69

Posted: 17 Apr 2004 08:26 pm    Post subject: Hellstorm #20
By SeanCurtin

HELLSTORM: PRINCE OF LIES #20 (Nov. 1994) 
"Femme Fatale" 

Plot synposis: Disgraced police detective Gunyon, hunting for Hellstorm, falls under Satana's spell, while Hellstorm's consort Jaine Cutter has her weapon--the Breathing Gun--stolen from her by angelic emissary Gabriel Rosetti. In France, the sorceress LaVoisin (not her real name, it turns out) narrates the history of her historical namesake, Catherine DeShayes, to author Jaques Bordenave. LaVoisin is then revealed to be pregnant by Daimon Hellstrom, unaware that Hellstrom has already determined that Satan (who was apparently killed in H:PL 16) will be reborn in the form of Hellstrom's child. 

Note: Daimon Hellstrom does not actually appear in this issue. One could charitably give him a BTS appearance, but there's no direct contact with him other than LaVoisin telling a servant to write him a letter. 

Characters appearing: 
Satana 
Detective Gunyon 
Jaine Cutter 
Gabriel Rosetti 
Jaques Bordenave 
LaVoisin II 
Satan/Marduk Kurios (BTS) 

Characters appearing in flashback: 
LaVoisin/Catherine DeShayes 
Marquise de Montespan 

Second story: "Fur Bible" 

Synposis: Witch-hunter Stephen Loss describes his magic-killing arsenal, and his plans to kill Hellstorm. 

Characters appearing: 
Stephen Loss (also in flashback to 1923) 

Updated chronologies: 

**BORDENAVE, JACQUES 
**H:PL 20 

CUTTER, JAINE 
**H:PL 20 
TB '00 

**DE MONTESPAN, MARQUISE 
**H:PL 20-FB 

**GUNYON, DETECTIVE 
**H:PL 20 

HELLSTORM/DAIMON HELLSTROM 
H:PL 10 
**H:PL 20-BTS (if you like) 
DRUID (should be DRUID 1, since there was more than one issue) 

**LAVOISIN/CATHERINE DESHAYES 
**H:PL 20-FB 

**LAVOISIN II/ 
**H:PL 20 

**LOSS, STEPHEN 
**H:PL 20/2-FB 
**H:PL 20/2 

ROSETTI, GABRIEL 
H:PL 10 
**H:PL 20 

SATAN/MARDUK KURIOS ('true name' misspelled on the MCP) 
H:PL 5 
**H:PL 20-BTS 

SATANA/SATANA HELLSTROM 
H:PL 10 
**H:PL 20

			*	*	*

Thread 70

Posted: 17 Apr 2004 08:29 pm    Post subject: Conan?
By SeanCurtin

I have the Essential Conan handy, and can do issue analyses of its contents (CTB 1-25, including the reprint of Marvel's first Conan story from SVT 1). Is there a place on the MCP for an analysis of this series? 

-- 
Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Apr 2004 09:11 pm
By Starman

I, for one, would love having a Conan chronology on the MCP. :smile:
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Apr 2004 10:41 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

If it's a Marvel comic, and the issues don't have a listing under any characters, and it's not a comic published inside the GAP, then I'd say there's room for it on the MCP, (even though Marvel doesn't have the rights to Conan anymore *grumble*). So yes, feel free to give chronology reviews. However... 

The idea of making a chronology for Conan has been brought up by me before. Here's the thing: 

Marvel's Conan has been chronologized before, in the pages of the reprint magazine Conan Saga, (before that title was cancelled in the mid 90's). The chronology detailed there has been written up and posted on the internet by other websites, (not the MCP). I don't remember any of the links, but I'm sure some others out there have the links. 

So for the MCP to have a Conan listing, either someone just needs to sit down and post the exact contents from each of those issues of Conan Saga, (as given on other websites) and write it up for the MCP, or we need to do exactly as SeanCurtin is proposing and just post chronology reviews for each issue of Conan, and construct our own version...or do both. But if we've used the Olshevsky stuff, I don't see what's to keep us from relying on the Conan Saga chronology.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Thread 71

Posted: 16 Apr 2004 01:13 am    Post subject: Untold Legend of Captain Marvel
By SeanCurtin

UNTOLD LEGEND OF CAPTAIN MARVEL #1-3 

Plot synopsis: After proving himself excessively humanitarian in an intelligence-gathering mission against Galactus, Mar-Vell is assigned to his first command with Yon-Rogg and Una--a suicide mission into Brood territory to rescue the missing Admiral Devros, who is also sought by the Shi'ar. Mar-Vell, Yon-Rogg and Una are infected with Brood eggs by the Devros, the self-styled Brood King, but are cured; Devros, and the rest of Yon-Rogg's crew, are killed. The series takes place very shortly before M/SH 12; the closing pages lead directly into their mission there. 

UNTOLD LEGEND OF CAPTAIN MARVEL #1 

Characters appearing: 
Silver Surfer (not in flashback) 
Galactus 
Captain Mar-Vell 
Lieutenant Ran-Deff 
Colonel Hez-Tarr 
Una 
Yon-Rogg 
Supreme Intelligence 
Prime Minister Zarek 
Commander Zen-Pram 
Grand Admiral Devros (BTS; named and pictured in hologram but not in person) 
Imperial Guard (Fang, Oracle, Smasher, Starbolt) 
Deathbird 

Characters appearing in flashback: 
Devros (one-panel flashback narrated by Zen-Pram) 

UNTOLD LEGEND OF CAPTAIN MARVEL #2 
Characters appearing: 
Captain Mar-Vell 
Una 
Yon-Rogg 
Devros (becomes the Brood King) 
Imperial Guard (Fang, Oracle, Smasher, Starbolt) 
Deathbird 
Commander Zen-Pram 
unnamed Brood Queen (dies) 

Characters appearing in flashback #1: 
Captain Mar-Vell (aged eight or so, entering Kree military academy) 
Mar-Vell's mother (first appearance; unnamed) 

Characters appearing in flashback #2: 
Devros (shortly before issue #1) 
unnamed Brood Queen 

UNTOLD LEGEND OF CAPTAIN MARVEL #3 
Characters appearing: 
Captain Mar-Vell (briefly transformed into the Brood King) 
Una 
Yon-Rogg 
Devros (dies) 
Commander Zen-Pram (transformed into Brood; dies) 
Imperial Guard (Fang, Oracle, Smasher, Starbolt) 
Deathbird 


Updated character chronologies: 

BROOD KING: see DEVROS 

BROOD KING II: see CAPTAIN MARVEL 

CAPTAIN MARVEL/MAR-VELL [KREE] 
**ULCM 2-FB 
ULCM 1 
ULCM 2 
**ULCM 3 
M/SH 12 

**DEVROS, GRAND ADMIRAL [KREE] 
**ULCM 1-FB 
**ULCM 2-FB 
**ULCM 1-BTS 
**ULCM 2 
**ULCM 3 

DEATHBIRD/CAL'SYEE NERAMANI [SHI'AR] 
**ULCM 1 
**ULCM 2 
**ULCM 3 
MSM 9 

FANG II 
**ULCM 1 
**ULCM 2 
**ULCM 3 
UX 107 
(Fang's appearance in INH3 4 must be of a new Fang, since he died in UX 162. At least one other near-identical Fang has been seen since, a female, in XCAL 69 & 70. Either way, the male Fang from INH3 4 previously appeared (or reappeared, if he's the original) in the Starjammers LS.) 

GALACTUS/GALAN 
SS3 -1 
**ULCM 1 
FF 48 

**HEZ-TARR, COLONEL [KREE] 
**ULCM 1 

ORACLE/LADY SIBYL 
**ULCM 1 
**ULCM 2 
**ULCM 3 
UX 107 

**RAN-DEFF, LIEUTENANT [KREE] 
**ULCM 1 

SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD 
SS3 -1 
**ULCM 1 (not a flashback) 
FF 48 

SMASHER IV/VRIL-ROKK 
**ULCM 1 
**ULCM 2 
**ULCM 3 
UX 107 

STARBOLT 
**ULCM 1 
**ULCM 2 
**ULCM 3 
UX 107 

SUPREME INTELLIGENCE 
A 134-FB 
**ULCM 1 (not 100% sure of chronological placement, but should occur before WI? 28/3) 
WI? 28/3 

**UNA [KREE] 
**ULCM 1 
**ULCM 2 
**ULCM 3 
**M/SH 12 
**M/SH 13 
**CM 1 
**CM 2 
**CM 3 
**CM 4 
**CM 5 
**CM 6 
**CM 7 
**CM 8 
**CM 9 
**CM 10 
**CM 11 

**YON-ROGG [KREE] 
**ULCM 1 
**ULCM 2 
**ULCM 3 
**M/SH 12 
**M/SH 13 
**CM 1 
**CM 2 
**CM 3 
**CM 4 
**CM 5 
**CM 6 
**CM 7 
**CM 8 
**CM 9 
**CM 10 
**CM 11 
**CM 12 
**CM 13 
**CM 16 
**CM 17 
**CM 18 

**ZAREK, GRAND ADMIRAL [KREE] 
**ULCM 1 
**M/SH 12 
**CM 15 
**CM 16 
**CM 38 
**CM 39 
**CM 40 
**CM 41 

ZEN-PRAM, COMMANDER [KREE] 
**ULCM 1-FB-BTS 
**ULCM 1 
**ULCM 2 
**ULCM 3 

-Sean

Last edited by SeanCurtin on 18 Apr 2004 06:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Apr 2004 06:02 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Actually, on further review, the Supreme Intelligence's chronology should instead be updated as follows: 

SUPREME INTELLIGENCE 
FF 65 
**ULCM 1 
CM 16 

At the end of issue #3, the defeat of Ronan is mentioned, and most of the events of the series take place over a fairly tight time frame (slightly more than three weeks)--not long enough for FF 48-65 to pass. The Galactus sequence at the start of #1, and Mar-Vell's subsequent military inquiry, must take place further before the rest of the series than it seems on first reading.

			*	*	*

Thread 72

Posted: 28 Apr 2004 03:33 pm    Post subject: Moon Knight v4 #1, v5 #1-4
By SeanCurtin

MOON KNIGHT Vol. 4 ("Moon Knight: The Resurrection") #1 (Jan 1998) 

Yes, it's already analyzed, but there are a few characters whose chronologies don't reflect that. 

Characters appearing: 

Simon Darkover (dies) 
Set (actually Seth) 
Moon Knight 
Khonshu 
Marlene Alraune 
Frenchie 
Black Spectre, Stained Glass Scarlet, Morpheus, Bushman (all BTS) 
Werewolf/Jack Russell (hallucination only; not an actual appearance) 


MOON KNIGHT Vol. 5 #1-4 (Feb-May 1999) 
(alternately subtitled "High Strangeness" and "High Strangers" (sic)) 

Synposis: Marc Spector gets involved with the Brotherhood of the Red Dragon, a CIA-connected secret society that uses mind control to make people see paranormal phenomena (or that actually controls said phenomena; the protagonists tend to believe the former). They are evil, they confuse the hell out of the main characters and most of the readers, and they all die. 

It's possible, though unlikely, that the Red Dragon himself is two separate people (Aleister Ravenna in the past, and Germain Royce in the present), though there isn't any evidence for this other than one of several offhand suggestions made by Royce when Moon Knight brings up his apparent longevity. (The other suggestions involved alchemically stunted aging and so forth, all of which are equally plausible and much simpler for the humble chronologist to account for.) For simplicity's sake, I'm listing the two characters as one, since the bulk of the series seems to support that line of thought. 

MK5 1 

Characters appearing: 

Moon Knight 
Frenchie 
Johnson, Gena (owner of Gena's Diner) 
Lt. Flint 
Bertrand Crawley 
Dr. Isaac Rosslyn (first appearance) 
Marlene Alraune 
Bushman (bts) 
Candace "Candy" Calder (first appearance) 

MK5 2 

Characters appearing: 

Moon Knight 
Candece Calder 
Red Dragon/Aleister Ravenna/"Germain Royce" (first appearance) 
John Blackmon Parkins (in -fb only; dies) 
Marlene Alraune 
Frenchie 
Tulpa (the Marlene Alraune doppelganger; first appearance) 

Flashback #1: the Red Dragon (then going by the name Aleister Ravenna) holds mystic rituals with Parkins; later, the latter is killed in an explosion. 
Flashback #2: Spector and Calder on a date circa their mutual involvement with the CIA. 
Various other flashbacks depict the alleged history of the Brotherhood of the Red Dragon, but no named characters are seen. (Well, one panel shows Jack Ruby shooting Lee Harvey Oswald, but that sequence is practically a montage, and the context itself may be entirely fabricated.) 

MK5 3 

Characters appearing: 

Moon Knight 
Tulpa 
Marlene Alraune 
Frenchie 
Candace Calder 
Samuels (Moon Knight's butler) 
William Tryon 
Red Dragon 
Dr. Isaac Rosslyn 

Flashback #1: the Tulpa is apparently created out of Marlene's consciusness immediately prior to its appearance last issue. 
Flashback #2: a hypnotised Marlene recalls being abducted by aliens earlier in the issue. (The presence of aliens may be a hallucination or a false memory, but she was in fact kidnapped during that time frame.) 
Again, multiple flashbacks of questionable veracity featuring no named persons. 

MK5 4 

Characters appearing: 

Moon Knight 
Dr. Rosslyn (dies) 
Candace Calder 
Samuels 
Marlene Alraune 
Frenchie 
Red Dragon (dies) 
Tulpa (dies) 


Updated character chronologies: 

ALRAUNE, MARLENE 
MK4 4 
**MK5 1 
**MK5 2 
**MK5 3-FB 
**MK5 2 
**MK5 3 
**MK5 3-FB 
**MK5 3 
**MK5 4 
BP3 20 

**ALRAUNE, MARLENE IMPOSTER: see TULPA 

BUSHMAN, RAOUL 
MK4 4 
**MK5 1-BTS 

**CALDER, CANDACE "CANDY" 
**MK5 2-FB 
**MK5 1 
**MK5 2 
**MK5 3 
**MK5 4 

CRAWLEY, BERTRAND 
MK4 4 
**MK5 1 

DARKOVER, PROF. SIMON 
**MK4 1 
MK4 3 

FLINT, LT. 
**MK 12 
**MK 15 
**MK 17 
**MK 24 
**MK 25 
**MK 29 
**MK 33 
**MK 37 
MK4 3 
MK4 4 
**MK5 1 

FRENCHIE/JEAN-PAUL DUCHAMP 
MK4 4 
**MK5 1 
**MK5 2 
**MK5 3 
**MK5 4 

**JOHNSON, GENA 
**M/SPOT 28 
**HMAG 13/2 
**HMAG 17/2 
**MK 1 
**MK 2 
**MK 3 
**MK 4 
**MK 6 
**MK 7 
**MK 10 
**MK 13 
**MK 15 
**MK 22 
**MK 25 
**MK 29 
**MK 30 
**MK 33 
**MK 34 
**MK 34/2 
**MK 35 
**M/FAN 39 
**M/SH3 1 
**MK3 26 
**MK4 4 
**MK5 1 

**KHONSHU 
**WCA2 20-BTS 
**WCA2 21 
**WCA2 22-BTS 
**WCA2 23-BTS 
**MK 22/2 
**MK 21/2 
**MK 1 (first appearance) 
**MK3 37-FB-BTS 
**MK 25-BTS 
**MK 28-BTS 
**MK2 1 
(is merged with Moon Knight in MK2 1, at which point Khonshu is BTS for all Moon Knight's appearances through WCA2 41. Thus, WCA 20-23 would appear twice: once for Khonshu in the past, and once for Moon Knight travelling back in time) 
**WCA2 35 (briefly separated from Moon Knight's body) 
**WCA2 41 (separated from Moon Knight) 
**MK3 35-BTS 
**MK3 36-BTS 
**MK3 37-BTS 
**MK3 38-BTS 
**MK4 1 
**MK4 2 
**MK4 3 
**MK4 4 
**BP3 22 

MOON KNIGHT/MARC SPECTOR 
(Not certain where MK5 2-FB goes; it has to be at some point during Marc Spector's involvement with the CIA.) 
W2 134 
**MK5 1 
**MK5 2 
**MK5 3 
**MK5 4 
BP3 20 

**PARKINS, JOHN BLACKMON 
**MK5 2-FB 

**RAVENNA, ALEISTER: see RED DRAGON 

**RED DRAGON/ALEISTER RAVENNA/"GERMAIN ROYCE" 
**MK5 2-FB 
**MK5 1-BTS 
**MK5 2 
**MK5 3 
**MK5 4 
(If you were to separate Ravenna and Royce into separate chronologies, Ravenna only appears in the flashback; the rest of the appearances belong to Royce.) 

**ROSSLYN, DR. ISAAC 
**MK5 1 
**MK5 2-BTS 
**MK5 3 
**MK5 4 

**ROYCE, GERMAIN: see RED DRAGON 

**SAMUELS 
**M/SPOT 28 
(Samuels is Steven Grant's butler. I'm sure he has a number of appearances *somewhere* in here.) 
**MK5 3 
**MK5 4 

**TRYON, WILLIAM 
**MK5 3 

**TULPA/"MARLENE ALRAUNE" 
**MK5 3-FB 
**MK5 2 
**MK5 3 
**MK5 4 

-Sean
