	Marvel Universe Forum
1. FB within a FB
2. Sgt. Fury chronology problems
3. What If framing sequences, flashbacks
4. Alpha Flight (Volume 1, Issue 1)
5. Galactus
6. Error in Blob's sequence
7. dd 355
8. New Mutants (V1) and Uncanny 175
9. The new, improved X-calendar
10. Captain Universe
11. Avengers/ Alpha Flight teamup
12. FF #384 & FFU #5 problem
13. Wolsbane in ca 408
14. Arthur and Lady of the Lake in XX Crossing
15. Random question about Captain America #454...
16. Shadow King not in x60 and x 61
17. Placement of ASM@ 3 in The Hulk's Chronology
18. Damballah correction
19. Psylocke
20. Impossible Man
21. Characters only BTS; no on-panel ever
22. is Uncanny Origins canonical?
23. Sif correction
24. Loki Notes; Venus 6, 7, 9, 12
25. Dai Thomas question
26. USAgent first series
27. Appearances in IRON FIST
28. Tales of Suspense
29. Ghaur. Llyra additions
30. Weapon X flashback
31. Doctor Strange and supporting cast
32. These new Handbooks...
33. More content for Spidey's origin?
34. Juggernaut Addition
35. Cyclops - origin
36. Katherine Anne Summers and Corsair
37. Captain America (vol. 4) #26
38. When does a supporting character become relevant?
39. Dracula in FF III#36...probably not
40. Turk in DD I#181?
41. Venom, full name
42. Within Our Reach; Canonical?
43. Question about names?
44. Emma Frost
45. Merlin notes
46. Grotto and a bit of Turk
47. What If test case
48. Legion Quest Flashbacks
49. Obscure Plantman question
50. Chronology of the past three years of the mainX-Men titles.
51. Intercompany crossover list
52. NM 48-FB AND DOFP Stuff
53. Elektra: Assassin/Daredevil additions
54. Master Pandemonium and Mephisto
55. What's coming from Marvel in August...

	Issue Analysis Forum
56. Hulk Comic (Marvel UK) #1-5
57. Contest of Champions II (5 issues)
58. Chronology Review for Hulk issues #66-70.
59. What If v2 #60, 62, 65, 77, 84, 87, 94
60. Storm's origin (incorporating Uncanny Origins 9)
61. Nightcrawler's origin (incorporating Uncanny Origins 8)
62. Uncanny Origins #12: Doctor Strange
63. Iron Fist v2 #1-2
64. X-Men Unlimited #13
65. Crimson Dawn 1
66. Angels Origin incorporating Uncanny Origins 3.
67. Thor Annual#11 analysis; help......
68. Terror Inc. #1-5
69. Beast's Origin (incorporating Uncanny Origins 6)
70. DC vs. Marvel vol.1 no.1
71. XSE #1-4 and Bishop : XSE #1-3
72. Hellstorm : Prince Of Lies
73. Green Lantern/ Silver Surfer (all Marvel characters)
74. DC/Marvel All Access
75. Set in CTB I#147-issue analy
76. Spider-Man/Dr. Strange Graphic Novel
77. Newbie Question
78. Uncany Origins 1 - non-cannon
79. SUPERMAN/ FANTASTIC FOUR (Marvel Character Placement)
80. Access's placement
81. Which moderators are in charge of which books?
82. Days of Future Past #1-3
83. New DC vs. Marvel placement ( all Marvel characters )
84. Silver Surfer/ Superman (1997)
85. Age of Apocalypse chronology

	Bug Reports Forum
86. X-Men vol. 1/vol. 2
87. Various errata
88. Further typos
89. Hawkeye series
90. MISSING CODES
91. entry name not in bold
92. Missing linebreak
93. Marvel Comics Presents #88
94. Arranger
95. Wrong Codes
96. Excess line breaks
97. Hello from the old newbie
98. New comic site looking for help!
99. Definitive Character Websites
100. Computer program for chronology checking
101. Uncanny X-Men TPBs




Thread 1

Posted: 01 May 2004 12:58 pm    Post subject: FB within a FB
By captamr

Web of Spider-Man #21 is obviously a fill in issue reminiscent of the old Dreaded Deadline Doom in which a complete (usually subpar) story is wrapped around a few framing sequences before and after. This then makes the fill in story a flashback. The interesting aspect of this issue is the FB contained in the filler  pg. 15 and not anywhere in the MCP. The flashback has Spider-Man remembering the death of an innocent man after his involvement in a street mugging and his subsequent discussion with Mary Jane over a publicly announced quote of a J. Jonah Jameson headline of the event. 

The following pieces of evidence were used for placement of the FB: 

1. Spider-Man doesnt immediately recall the event and makes note of the event as similar to the situation of the Sin-Eater fight, which happened several weeks ago. This implies the event is older than the Sin-Eater episode in PPTSS # 107 110 and not as easily recollected. 
2. Mary Jane is shown walking arm in arm with Peter discussing the events of his Spider-Man life, implying events after ASM #258. 
3. The relationship seems chummy and light suggesting that both their lives are for the moment mundane and the conversation suggests that Spider-Mans life is still a new topic. (WOSM 3) 


J. Jonah Jameson headline which is announced by the newspaper salesman is pertinent to the conversation and the whole point of the FB and probably should be included as a behind the scenes note although this is still an area Im not sure how to handle. 

This leads to the following altered listings: 

SPIDER-MAN 
WOSM 3 
**WOSM 21  FB  FB (or designated as a FB within a FB?) 
ASM 265 


WATSON- PARKER, MARY JANE 
WOSM 3 
** WOSM 21  FB  FB 
ASM 265 

JAMESON, J. JONAH 
WOSM 3 
**WOSM 21  FB  FB  BTS 
PPTSS 103
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 2

Posted: 16 Feb 2004 05:05 pm    Post subject: Sgt. Fury chronology problems
By Enda80

The historical references in Sgt. Fury are a bit jumbled. Example: 

Sgt. Fury#1 takes place around time of D-Day, which occured in 1944. However, Sgt. Fury#51 takes place during the Teheran conference-which was in late 1943. 

I don't have a lot of Sgt. Furys, but if they continued with this sort of haphazard historical backdrop, then chronologizing Sgt. Fury would be difficult.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2004 05:53 pm    Post subject: Sgt. Fury
By ADMINISTRATOR

I had wondered about that. 

As long as each story gives some temporal references (like the two examples you mentioned), there should be no problems. The sticky part comes in with, now that we know the stories aren't told in order, what do we do if there are no temporal clues in the story? 

watching: moneyline

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Posted: 16 Feb 2004 06:33 pm    Post subject: Sgt. Fury issues that do have historical ref include
By Enda80

Well, the ones that do have concrete historical references include: 

Sgt. Fury#34 (fb) shows what Nick Fury was doing during Pearl Harbor in December 1941 

Sgt. Fury#62 covers Fury's basic training, so would presumably fall in-between #34 and #44 

#44 features the Howler's first mission, in late 1942 

#51 features the Teheran conference in late 1943 

D-Day was a busy time for Sgt. Fury, since three stories reference it; 
Sgt. Fury#1 takes place just befor D-Day 
#31 also takes place around Operation: Overlord 
Sgt. Fury Annual#2 takes place on June 5-6 of D-Day 
All of these D-Day stories would fall in 1944 

Sgt. Fury#108 features the firebombing of Dresden, which took place on February 13, 1945 

Sgt. Fury#42 references the Manhattan Project.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Feb 2004 01:41 am    Post subject: Re: Sgt. Fury
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
The sticky part comes in with, now that we know the stories aren't told in order, what do we do if there are no temporal clues in the story? 
<<<


My instinct would be to put the issues in publication order, and move the ones that have to be moved because they're obviously out of sequence.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 18 Feb 2004 07:23 am    Post subject: Sgt. Fury chronology
By Ron Flick

Over the last few years, I've been attempting to put the Sgt. Fury stories in some sort of logical sequence, and in my humble opinion, I would keep the stories in order of publication, and ignore the references to certain battles that may be out of place. 

Many of the early issues were set later in the war, but after Roy Thomas took over as editor, he made a decent attempt at retroactively setting the adventures earlier in the war. The major problem with trying to take the earlier stories that reference later battles and inserting them later in the chronology has to do with the characters. The early stories featured two characters that would soon die...a soldier named Juniper and Fury's girlfriend, Pamela Hawley. Later stories referenced their deaths many times. Also, as the series progressed, new characters were added, such as the Brit in the red beret (Sorry his name escapes me at this time) and Eric Koenig. Also, in the middle of the run of stories, a new series of adventures starring Captain Savage and his Raiders began to appear, paralleling many of the Fury adventures. 

Therefore, I think it would be much, much easier to ignore out-of-context references in earlier adventures and to stick to a chronology based on publication, except of course for the flashback issues mentioned in the previous post, as well as certain annual issues. 

I will pull out my on-again, off-again Fury chronology and post it here soon. 

Thanks, 

Ron Flick

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Posted: 01 May 2004 11:21 am    Post subject: Fury's WWII Chronology - including Captain Savage
By Agent of Shield

I've looked at the chronology for Sgt. Fury and Captain Savage - don't have all the Sgt. Fury books though - and come up with the following: 

1. Sgt Fury #34 and Captain Savage #18 each contain background stories set prior to WWII. 
2. Sgt Fury #62 is set during Fury's basic training. 
3. Captain Savage #14 details the Raiders' first mission (Jan 1942). 
4. Sgt Fury #44 details the Howler's first mission (Spring, 1942). 
5. Sgt Fury #1 - I assume the references to D-Day in this story are premature and write it off to a bunch of Howlers who may not have been told the entire truth about an allied invasion. Perhaps their mission was meant to achieve a classified objective they knew nothing about. In my view, it's the best way to write off the D-Day references and still set the story in continuity with the others. It should probably take place in the Spring-Summer of '42. 
6. Sgt. Fury #118 is set prior to issue 6 and deals with Rommel in North Africa (Aug, 1942). 
7. Sgt. Fury #2-31 are presumably chronological. I don't have most of these so I can't say for sure. 
8. Sgt. Fury #32 is set on 18 May, 1943 per the text. It also contains a running continuation of Dino Manelli being wounded and eventually returning to duty in subsequent issues. 
9. Sgt. Fury #33-46 are chronological after #32. 
10. Sgt. Fury #47 states that it's New Year's Eve. No way. Given later chronology detailing the events at Tarawa (Nov, 1943), that can't be right. I write that off as Fury being drunk or something. It's out of place. 
11. Sgt. Fury #49-50 take place in Oct-Nov, 1943. 
12. Sgt. Fury #50 and Capt Savage #1 are set in Nov, 1943 (Tarawa). 
13. Sgt. Fury #51 is on 28 Nov, 1943 (Tehran conference). 
14. Sgt. Fury #52-59 are chronological - Izzy Cohen is a POW in the Pacific after the events in Tarawa. Issue 57 is supposed to be the summer before D-Day - but I blow that reference off given the strength of the continuity of Tarawa and Cohen's status. 
15. Captain Savage #7 is set in 1944 and details the rescue of Ben Grimm, marine aviator. Interestingly, this fits very well with the classic Marvel version of Grimm. He was clearly a WWII pilot - present at Midway and Guadalcanal (1942). In CS #7, he is already famous and considered a valuable public relations asset by the military (similar to several real-world marine aviators - look up Marion E. Carl sometime for a real-life version of Ben Grimm. Maybe Stan Lee knew who this guy was). 
16. Sgt. Fury #60 is dated 19 Oct 1943. That's clearly out of place given that the story references Tarawa as occuring in the past. I've opted with the spirit of the story and have no choice but to blow off the date - assuming instead that is would be set sometime in early 1944. 
17. Sgt. Fury #61-92 - I don't have many of these, but the ones I have seem to be set before D-Day, placing them in the first 6 months of 1944. 
18. Captain Savage #8-12 also appear to be set prior to D-Day. 
19. Captain Savage #13 appears to be set after D-Day. 
20. Sgt. Fury #92 on appear to be set after D-Day. If there's a no-kidding D-Day story in the Sgt. Fury chronology, I don't have it. 
21. Sgt. Fury #119 is set on 10 Oct, 1944. It is out of place with the publication dates but as a stand-alone story doesn't impact the chronology. 
22. Capt Savage #19 is set on New Year's Eve (1943 according to the illustrations, but more likely 1944 - chalk it up to artistic license). 
23. Sgt. Fury #108 is set in Feb, 1945 during the firebombing of Dresden. 
24. The rest of the Sgt. Fury stories appear to be chronological after #108 (except #119). One anachronism is #117 in which is set in London during a German bombing raid. If this takes place after D-Day, the Germans weren't bombing England anymore. Since this is the Mavel Universe, we can assume that maybe this was an heroic effort on the part of some mad Nazi officer (Zemo anyone?). 

This is obviously incomplete but my best shot at reconciling artistic license with actual historical events.

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Posted: 01 May 2004 06:51 pm    Post subject: Sgt. Fury chronology
By Ron Flick

Excellent compilation...but I have one main comment at this point. 

The events depicted in issues #34 and #44 leading up to the Howlers' first mission take place over a number of months. Their first mission is said to take place in the late Fall of 1942, during which snow is found on the ground around Paris, I believe. 

This corresponds well with actual history. American troops did not take part in any action in the European theater of the war until late in 1942. Much of the action that the U.S. was involved in during 1942 was happening in the Pacific, due to the direct attacks by Japan, rather than Germany. 

The real-life American Ranger units did not form until mid-1942, patterned after the British commandos already in existence. I believe the U.S. Rangers actually trained at the British commando training facilities in England during the summer of 1942. The Rangers did not see any action until the North African campaign in late 1942 and early 1943. 

What is strange about the Marvel version of history is that Roy Thomas originally edited the Sgt. Fury stories in the mid to late 1960s, and then backdated the Howlers beginnings when he wrote the Invaders. Especially troubling is the Roy Thomas- written Captain America: Medusa Effect one-shot, which is supposedly set in January, 1943. The events are said to take place almost a year after Zemo's appearance in Sgt. Fury #7. This just couldn't be the case if the Howlers weren't formed until late Fall, 1942. 

I welcome any further comments. I will try to post in more detail in the near future. 

Ron Flick

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Thread 3

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 07:19 pm    Post subject: What If framing sequences, flashbacks
By Scatach80

A few What If characters have made appearances in What If framing sequences.....and not just in scenes that recap previously told Earth-616 events. Should we add a note to this efect in the FAQ? For these, we could put a note WI? -FS (framing sequence). 

If anyone wants a list, I can think of a few cases; 

What If I#5; cited in Avengers Index#1 and #4 for Baron Zemo 
What If I#35; Daredevil/Matt Murdock 
What If I#36; Nova 
What If II#28; Captain America 
What If II#31: Captain Universe (in a dog!), Glenn Herdling (yes, that Glenn Herdling; confirmed in a bullpen page) 
What If II#48: Ben Urich (note that this was not actually an alternate reality, but Ben Urich of Earth-616 writing a counterfactual story) 
What If II#60; X-characters (isochronally with wedding) 
What If II#66; Brotherhood of Evil Mutants 

What If I#13 has Conan and Shumash Shum-Ukin, but I do not have Savage Sword of Conan#7, so I cannot say if showed anything unseen in that issue. 
.......................................................................................................... 

Also, since in Quasar#6, the Watcher was shown observing the Earth from What If II#9, could we give a notation to the effect 

Uatu 
........................... 
M/CP 17/3 
*Q 6~WI2 9-FS 
DD@ 5/4 
A@ 18/4 

Similarly, Quasar#30 shows a flashback in which the Time Keepers are shown speaking to Uatu while he is observing the world from What If II#13 (What If Professor X became Juggernaut?) That would indicate that WI II#13 was observed just before Quasar#30. So 

Uatu 
............ 
A 338 
A 339 
*Q 30-FB~ WI2 13-FS 
Q 30 
Q 31 


Oh, and a note; 
PHOENIX 1 (?; may be alternate universe watcher) 
That is indeed an alternate reality watcher. As confirmed by The Official Handbook Deluxe Edition entry for Phoenix, Phoenix: The Untold Saga was supposed to be part of Rachel's origin. So, that was the Days of Future Past world's Uatu. (The entry for Rachel listed Phoenix: The Untold Story as her origin.) 
........................................................................ 
Immortus is kind of a tricky case. He made a cameo in What If I#32....and there is only supposed to be one Immortus for the whole multiverse. The same situation holds for the Living Tribunal. 
One thing I thought about with adding in appearances of the Living Tribunal. One snag I admit. What If stories are supposed to present worlds that are exactly the same as Earth-616 up to Point X. Then the story often continues to show us how the world was affected by the diveregence at point X.....often following the ramifications long after Point X. 
For some stories, it would be quite easy to figure out how much time has passed since Point X. For example, Immortus in Limbo made a cameo in What If I#32 soon after the point of divergence in that issue, which was at Avengers I#177. Easy to place. 
For other stories, it is kind of a guess, though I feel we make educated estimates. (Example; in What If II#6, the Living Tribunal made a cameo. Since that story diverged with Inferno, when the Human Torch was trapped in constant flame on form, and in that issue that world's Alicia Masters/Lyja had his baby, I would say that it took place soon after Inferno, since Lyja could not have had sex with Johnny in flame on form, and a pregnancy only lasts nine months.) 
...................................................................................... 
Finally, a question. What If worlds are supposed to be exactly the same as Earth-616 up to the point of divergence (Point X). If somebody in the story has a flashback to an event before the timeframe of the point of divergence, that means that something exactly the same happened on Earth-616. Could we add those into chronologies?

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Posted: 25 Apr 2004 07:46 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Funny you should mention all this. I've recently become obsessed with the idea of trying to find canon scenes in What If comics too. :smile:

By the way, Nova's appearance in WI 36 is already on the MCP, and I recently posted a long thread including a write-up of WI2 60. But there are many more that we haven't yet found... 

Right now, I have canon scenes in WI #36-37, and WI2 #-1, 60, 66, 75 and 96 -- but I've only been able to analyze a fraction of the series. 

Also, if Exiles #18-19 is to be believed, and there is only one Mojo in the multiverse, then any appearances of him in What If? comics would be canon. (He appears briefly in WI2 59, for example, pestering that reality's X-Men.) 

Yeah -- What If is a goldmine. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Apr 2004 01:28 am
By John Simons

Well, for starters, WI2 35-39 feature not only Uatu but Immortus, the Time Keepers and the Time Twisters. Also the deputy secretary of the Time Variance Authority, who unless I miss my guess is drawn to look like Mark Gruenwald. This story picks up from the ending of AWC 62. 

I might've brought this up sooner, but I believe they were published in the gap...

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Posted: 26 Apr 2004 03:59 am
By Nathan P. Mahney

Scathach80 wrote: 
>>>
Finally, a question. What If worlds are supposed to be exactly the same as Earth-616 up to the point of divergence (Point X). If somebody in the story has a flashback to an event before the timeframe of the point of divergence, that means that something exactly the same happened on Earth-616. Could we add those into chronologies? 
<<<


I would hesitate to do this, as many of those flashbacks will conflict with things that are revealed later on in the Marvel canon. What If has never really been treated as gospel by the Marvel writers.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 26 Apr 2004 04:57 am    Post subject: Gap only from 1993 to 1994
By Scathach80

A 1992 book would not be a gap book. 

"Currently the MCP holds no books published in the time period from early 1993 to mid 1994." 

So a 1992 book would not be a gap book.

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Posted: 26 Apr 2004 12:06 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Nathan P. Mahney wrote: 
>>>
I would hesitate to do this, as many of those flashbacks will conflict with things that are revealed later on in the Marvel canon. 
<<<

Oh, like flashbacks in the REAL Marvel Universe never contradict established character histories. 

If something like that happens, we have an easy out -- we can postulate that THAT particular universe actually branched off BEFORE the conflicting flashback. 

Or, like we usually do, we can work to rationalize and squeeze the flashback in somewhere. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Apr 2004 07:02 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Scathach80 wrote: 
>>>
"Currently the MCP holds no books published in the time period from early 1993 to mid 1994." 
<<<


Who are you quoting here? 

Whoever it is, they're incorrect. Currently the MCP holds about half the books published from early 1993 to mid 1994. 


watching: smallville

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Posted: 26 Apr 2004 07:31 pm    
By Scathach80

The Key said this.

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Posted: 27 Apr 2004 04:38 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Oh, like flashbacks in the REAL Marvel Universe never contradict established character histories. 

If something like that happens, we have an easy out -- we can postulate that THAT particular universe actually branched off BEFORE the conflicting flashback. 

Or, like we usually do, we can work to rationalize and squeeze the flashback in somewhere. 

-Jeph! 
<<<


Well, I did say I'd hesitate, not chuck out the idea completely. Certainly it would be a great idea to go through every flashback case by case to determine its canonicity. I'm just glad that I don't have to do it!
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 27 Apr 2004 11:17 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks, Scathach80. I'll update that right away. 


watching: Larry King

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Posted: 01 May 2004 10:01 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Huh. Nova's appearance in WI 36 ISN'T on the MCP. Why did I think it was? 

I'm working on a write-up of the What If? issues I have (only 17 ... 146 to go), focusing on the Earth-616 segments -- expect it in the Issue Analysis forum soon... 

-Jeph!

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Thread 4

Alpha Flight (Volume 1, Issue 1)
By clippertonenet

AF 1 (Alpha Flight, Volume 1, Issue 1) 
Published: August, 1983 
Written and drawn by John Byrne 

Appearances: 
Guardian/James MacDonald Hudson (appears as Vindicator) 
Shaman/Dr. Michael Twoyoungmen (give title / last name misspelled in the database) 
Aurora/Jeanne-Marie Beaubier (last name misspelled in the database) 
Northstar/Jean-Paul Beaubier (last name misspelled in the database) 
Sasquatch/Professor Walter Langkowski (give title) 
Snowbird/Narya/Corporal Anne Mckenzie Thompson (RCMP - Royal Canadian Mounted Police) (give full name) 
Cody, Gary 
after AF 51-FB 
before X&AF2 1 
Hudson, Heather McNeil (give full name) 
Puck/Eugene Milton Judd (already included) 
Marrina/Marrina Smallwood (already included) 
Easton, Dr. Richard (give title) 
Tundra (already included) 
Smallwood, Dan (already included) 

Flashback on page 2: The prime minister disbands Department H 
Trudeau, Canadian Prime Minister Pierre Elliott (needs to be added to database) 
AF 1-FB (happened just prior to the events in AF 1) 

Thompson, Doug (is NOT in AF 1)

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Posted: 02 May 2004 12:12 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Hey, Clipper. Welcome to the MCP board. 

A few things, though, because I've got nothing to do with my Saturday night: :wink:

Alpha Flight #1 is already on the MCP -- and what you're posting here is just corrections. That would go better in the "Marvel Universe" forum -- "Issue Analysis" is mainly for books that haven't been added to the MCP at all. 

Also, we don't necessarily add titles (like Doctor, Professor) to character names -- not yet, anyway. That may be something we'll add in the future... 

As for Snowbird, as far as I can tell we DO have her full name on the MCP. What are we missing? 

As for Guardian/Vindicator -- we've got his entire listing under "Guardian" for ease -- if you look up "Vindicator", all you'll get is "see Guardian". 

And the flashback on p.2 is from UX #140, with no new material added -- so it IS already on the MCP, and doesn't need to be listed separately. 

Good catch on Gary Cody -- he does appear in AF #1, and we don't have him listed -- but it took me a long time to figure out that was what you meant. A notation like (appears in issue, not listed) would work wonders. 

And I don't see Doug Thompson in AF #1 either. 

Thanks for contributing! Keep up the good work. 

-Jeph! 

EDIT: the page that Gary Cody's entry links to, no longer exists. THIS IS AN OUTRAGE. THIS MUST BE DEALT WITH.

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Posted: 02 May 2004 01:18 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
the page that Gary Cody's entry links to, no longer exists. THIS IS AN OUTRAGE. THIS MUST BE DEALT WITH. 
<<<


You're right. Somebody get that page back up! 


watching: max x

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Posted: 02 May 2004 11:48 am    
By clippertonenet

Thanks for the advice on getting started. 

If you don't use titles, then Snowbird's name is complete. The only incomplete one would be Heather Hudson. 

How about the misspellings? Does the chronology project mind those types of corrections? 

Last thing, how long do corrections typically take to be loaded into the database? 

Thanks again for the help.

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Posted: 02 May 2004 01:04 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
How about the misspellings? Does the chronology project mind those types of corrections? 
<<<

Heck no. Go to town. 

Quote: 
>>>
how long do corrections typically take to be loaded into the database? 
<<<

Heheheheheheheh. 

...Russ? 

-Jeph!

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Thread 5

Posted: 02 May 2004 05:08 pm    Post subject: Galactus
By GM2000

How up to date is the chronology for galactus? I know that he's in the new thanos series but what other issues are missing?

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Thread 6

Posted: 24 Apr 2004 01:20 am    Post subject: Error in Blob's sequence
By Jopili

This is the wrong sequence: 
CA 339 
XF 30 
XF 31 
CA 346 

This is the right sequence: 
XF 30 
XF 31 
CA 339 
CA 346 

On XF 30 Cyclops says that the Freedom Force stay in Dallas (where the X-Men disappeared), but on CA 339 the team stay in Fort Meade, AFTER the events of Dallas. 

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Posted: 03 May 2004 08:02 pm    
By Lia Brown

You can see why the MCP has placed CA 339 where they have---it's a Fall of the Mutants tie-in, and has Steve Rogers and co fighting Apocalypse's Horsemen. Thus it makes sense to put it close to other FotM issues. However, as you say, Cyclops mentions Freedom Force still being in Dallas after they clashed with the New Mutants in Dallas, so it's unlikely Blob and co would have gone to Maryland and then gone back to Dallas for X-Factor 30-31. 

I've always considered CA 339 a continuity mess when I wrote up a chronology for Freedom Force. It doesn't even make sense within the context of FotM, as FotM had Freedom Force helping the X-Men and getting along with them (seemingly caring about their deaths), and CA 339 has Blob and co celebrating their deaths. 

This is how I wrote up the sequence for Blob, FF, and the others: 

XF 30 
XF 31 
CA 339 
XF 33 
CA 346 

Note XF 33 in there.

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Thread 7

Posted: 23 Mar 2004 10:34 pm    Post subject: dd 355
By Dhall

dARDEVIL: 

DD 355 (Notice this) 
GG 12-BTS 
OE 10 
DD 356-FB 
DD 356 
DD 357 
DD 358 
DD 358-FB 
DD 358 
A '99-FB 
TM/U 1 
V:OT 1 
V:OT 2 
V:OT 3 


pYRO: 
UX 338 
XF 129 
XF 130 
UX 351 
DD 355 (???) 
QS 6 
QS 7 


Huh???? DD 355 is in the wrong spot on Pyro's listing, it does not go after UX 351. (It must go before UX 338.) 

As DD 371, comes right after UX 351 (not 355!) DD's listing wins! 

Pyro: 
**DD 355 
UX 338 
XF 129 
XF 130 
UX 351 

QS 6 
QS 7 


Dave Hall

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Posted: 03 May 2004 08:23 pm    
By Lia Brown

Sorry to sound like a "me too"-er, but you're correct here. Just backing you up! :smile:

Since I'm a Pyro geek, I've got a bunch of correction suggestions for his chronology, which I'll post later when I'm not so bloody tired :wink:

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Posted: 03 May 2004 09:25 pm    
By Dhall

Well Lia, 
Thanks for your support, 
just remember that you will be asked to justify your changes with evidence, usually directly from the comics themselves. In this case, all I did was point on inconsistancies between MCP listings. (There are probably a lot of cases in the MCP where for example two characters from the same team will have slightly different listings....) 

I'm looking forward to your Pyro corrections. 


Dave H

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Thread 8

Posted: 01 May 2004 03:47 am    Post subject: New Mutants (V1) and Uncanny 175
By electronicLad

I was just doing some reading of back issues, while trying to keep some events straight in my head between Uncanny X-men and New Mutants vol. 1. 

Uncanny 175 - states that at Scott and Maddy's wedding, the new mutants were in attendance. (I guess these would all have to be behind the scenes since I see none of them in panel). 

Has this been discussed or reconciled? Since as far as I can tell, the New Mutants had left for Brazil (new rome story) and did not return until after these events. I notice the entries for the new mutants in the chronology don't mention Uncanny 175 as BTS.

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Posted: 03 May 2004 09:29 pm    
By Dhall

As you surmise, despite that caption, the New Mutants are either in Brazil, or Nova Roma at the time, and thus unable to attend Scott and Madelyne's wedding. 

Here's a more sinister question regarding UX 175, given what we now know about Maddy's history from Inferno (Jean Grey clone, raised in a test tube, etc.) Who is the man walking down the isle with Maddy at her wedding? It's not Scott's father. Phillip is sitting next to his wife. So who is he? 

Dave H

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Thread 9

Posted: 30 Apr 2004 09:55 am    Post subject: The new, improved X-calendar
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Here is my revised X-calendar for a very busy period of four MU months. I do not have any notes for W3 7 and up, at least some of which may occur during the time outlined below; well see what Jeph comes up with. I hope Ive worked out most of the kinks and inconsistencies. One bothersome detail are the several references that suggest that a period of months pass between NM2 6 and 7, but I cant see how this can be accommodated within the larger framework of X-events. Otherwise, I think things are shaping up and were in a good position to deal with the chronology of Reload. I hope my fellow chronologists agree. 


Monday, March 10 
SPIDER-MAN & WOLVERINE #4  FB  FB (9p1-9p4) 
One day, days before SM&W 4-FB-FB (9p5-9p7). The Stuff of Legends program has quickly reached the field testing phase. During a time when Logan has ducked out on the X-Men for weeks if not months at a time, SHIELD agents drug and abduct him in a bar and deliver him to Edward Brecker for genetic testing. Logan is wearing a coat and no goatee. 

Tuesday, March 11 
X-TREME X-MEN #32  FB (20p2-20p3) 
One day. Marie Dancanto accidentally kills her brother when her mutant power manifests itself in the family car. Short sleeves and shorts in southern California. 

Thursday, March 13 
SPIDER-MAN & WOLVERINE #4  FB  FB (9p5-9p7) 
One day, days after SM&W 4-FB-FB (9p1-9p4). It is a straight week before SM&W 1-FB. Brecker studies Logans genetic material and decides to replicate his healing factor for profit. 

Thursday, March 20: Vernal Equinox 
SPIDER-MAN & WOLVERINE #1  FB 
One day, a straight week after SM&W 4-FB-FB (9p5-9p7). It is a couple of days before SM&W 1 and thirty-six hours before SM&W 3-4. It is a school day and Peters school has a new assistant principal. Nick Fury picks up Peter from school to send him on a mission as Spider-Man. Spidey is flown out to an island off Japan, where he parachutes in to rescue a prisoner, who turns out to be Wolverine. Full moon. 
SPIDER-MAN & WOLVERINE #2  FB 
The same night as SM&W 1-FB. Spidey frees Logan, and, with the help of Reed Richards, they determine that images of Logans torture were being transmitted to a house in Paris. 

Friday, March 21 
SPIDER-MAN & WOLVERINE #3  FB 
The day after SM&W 1-FB. In Paris, Logan and Spidey find a secret lab that explodes and nearly get run down by a car. Peter calls in to school claiming to be sick and planning to be back on Monday. It is a difficult time of year to find substitute teachers. That night, Cyclops picks them up and takes them to Switzerland, where they meet up with Nick Fury, who shoots Logan. We see green trees in Paris and snow in the Alps. 
SPIDER-MAN & WOLVERINE #4  FB 
The same night as SM&W 3-FB. This flashback occurs twenty-four hours before SM&W 4. Fury explains the situation and sends Logan and Spidey into Breckers mountain facility to stop him from selling his healing formula. By switching places (Peter wears Logans tiger-stripe costume), the heroes shut down Breckers operation. Snow in the Alps. 

Saturday, March 22 
SPIDER-MAN & WOLVERINE #1 
One day, a couple of days after SM&W 1-FB. Spidey relates his adventure with Logan. 
SPIDER-MAN & WOLVERINE #2 
The same day as SM&W 1. Logan and Spidey continue to relate their adventure together. 
SPIDER-MAN & WOLVERINE #3 
The same day as SM&W 2. Thirty-six hours after the beginning of SM&W 1-FB. Logan and Spidey continue to talk about their adventure. 
SPIDER-MAN & WOLVERINE #4 
The same day as SM&W 3. It is twenty-four hours after the end of SM&W 4-FB. Logan and Spidey finish their story, which turns out to be an explanation to Aunt May why Peters late for dinner. May knows that Peter is Spidey and has accepted it, so this story occurs sometime after PPSM2 50 (28-35). M.J.s whereabouts are not divulged, but she may be back together with Peter in New York at this time; if so, her absence cant be explained by a modeling or acting gig, given that she doesnt return to her career until ASM 505 (1-9). 

Sunday, March 23 
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (20-21p2) 
One day, months after XX 24 (18-19). Sam and Lila return to Paris, where it isspring and we see green grass and trees. This segment must occur before UX 425 (17-23), given that Sam was at the wedding in that issue, according to XX 40. 
the Piako Loio himself. Selvi stops him from disturbing the Piako Loio. 
One night, days after HT 10 (1-19). Still in the Balkans, Johnny and Jian pay their respects to the deceased Hugo. 

Monday, March 24 
X-TREME X-MEN #20 (1-15) 
One day. Bishop and Sage have returned from California to rejoin Storm and Logan in New Orleans, where Logan oversees her (resumed) rehabilitation. Logan tells Storm that nature has its own pace (a lesson theyve both learned now) and remarks that shes doing better than expected, nowhere as good as she wants. Storm also bemoans the fact that the rehab for her injury in XX 18 is taking so long. Sage refers to the events of X 115 as having occurred recently. She also references the mutants they met in XXX 1 (8-13), which may not have been very recent, given her comment, Remember California? Bishop talks of rejoining Xaviers band of X-Men, and Ororo may not have shared with him her encounter with Archangel in XXX 2 (19-22). Bishop and Sage then investigate some murders on a night with a full moon. 

Tuesday, March 25 
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (21p3-21p4) 
Probably the morning after XX 23 (1-16). In Paris, Cannonball and Lila have breakfast and read an on-line news item about the events of XX 20-22. 
X-TREME X-MEN #20 (16-22) 
The day after XX 20 (1-15). Bishop and Sage go to Xaviers, where they encounter Emma Frost and the mutant responsible for the murders. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. 
X-TREME X-MEN #21 
The same day as XX 20 (16-22). Bishop and Sage are teleported away from Xaviers while Emma Frost tries to deal with Garrett, who shes harboring while Professor X is away from the mansion, perhaps on his way back from his appearance in Los Angeles in XS 8 (1-6). Storm tries to reason with Emma from New Orleans, where we see Logan starting to grow another goatee. The weather at Xaviers is so cold that a lake on the grounds is iced over; this is inconsistent with the green grass and trees seen in XX 20 (16-22). 
X-TREME X-MEN #22 
The same night as XX 21. Although a student at Xaviers refers to the events of XX 20 (16-22) as the other day, it must have actually been earlier this day. Bishop and Sage storm the Xavier Institute, forcing Storm, despite her less-than-full recovery, to fly from New Orleans to New York, where she fights Emma. We see snow on the ground at Xaviers, even before Storms arrival, and this is inconsistent with the green grass and trees seen not only in XX 20 but in this very issue. Perhaps it is the beginning of spring and the different scenes co-exist. 
X-TREME X-MEN #23 (1-16) 
The same night as XX 22. The X-Men battle Elias Bogan in the Danger Room. 

Wednesday, March 26 
X-TREME X-MEN #23 (17-22) 
The morning after XX 23 (1-16). The X-Treme team disagree with Xaviers philosophy and leave Professor X, White Queen, and Jean Grey at the Institute, where we see snow. Emma must appear here before her murder in X 139 (21-22). 

Thursday, March 27 
WOLVERINE/DOOP #1 (1-9p3) 
One day, sometime after XS 10. Wolverine (sans goatee) is called in to investigate a missing piece of pink fur and encounters the Pink Lady. 

Friday, March 28 
WOLVERINE/DOOP #1 (9p4-11) 
One day. Wolverine cant get his mind off the Pink Lady. Orphan and Doop are called in to investigate people turning pink and talking gibberish. It is two weeks before W/D 1 (12-22). 

Monday, March 31 
WEAPON X v2 #7 
One day. Aurora has had plastic surgery on her face. Mesmero holds a press conference in disguise to quell rumors about Neverland and Nathan Summers team plant a bug on him. A pair of killers commit a string of massacres in Denver and Nathan sends Maverick to investigate. It is days before WX2 8. Green grass and trees in Washington, DC, but snow flurries at Weapon X headquarters. 

Tuesday, April 1 
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (22p3-23) 
One day. Cannonball calls Storm to Paris, where we see green trees. Storm wears the miniskirt we saw in XX 23. He accepts her offer to join the X-Treme team. 

Wednesday, April 2 
X-TREME X-MEN #32  FB (22-23) 
One day, long enough after XX 32-FB (20) for Marie to recover from the accident and have a series of nightmares probably spanning several days. An X-Corp representative gets Marie Dancantos father to sign over their house and reports back to Roberto da Costa. Green grass and trees in southern California. 

Saturday, April 5 
WEAPON X v2 #8 
One day, days after WX2 7. Mesmeros mother dies as Soldier X and company look on, Sabretooth confronts Dr. Windsor about his activities, Domino and Maverick battle Reaper and Wildside, Washout dehydrates, and the Director reveals his face job to Aurora. We see green grass and trees in Westchester, and snow flurries at Neverland. It is basketball season, so it is before late April. 
WEAPON X v2 #9 
The same day as WX2 8. Domino and Maverick defeat Reaper and Wildside, Mesmero has lost his mental powers and Sabretooth is free of Weapon X control, Washout faces his impending death, Kane is sent to Neverland, and the rest of Weapon X appear to plot against the Director and Aurora. We see green trees and short-sleeved fans at a Yankees game, so it must be after late March. 

Sunday, April 6 
WEAPON X v2 #10 
The day after WX2 9. Sabretooth has escaped during the night and he assigns Marrow to retrieve him. After Agent Jackson points out the hypocrisy of loving Aurora, Colcord attacks her. Soldier X interrogates the captured Reaper and Wildside, but ends up frying their minds. Jackson, Washout, Sauron, and Wildchild burst into the Undergrounds stronghold and announce that theyre there to join Soldier Xs team. 
WEAPON X v2 #11 
The same day as WX2 10. Colcord apologizes to Aurora, questions Windsor, orders that the powerless Mesmero be taken to Neverland, and is attacked by Washout, who dies in the attempt to kill Colcord, but not before cutting the power long enough for the Underground to enter the facility. Sabretooth returns. 
WEAPON X v2 #12 
The same day as WX2 11. Marrow battles Sabretooth and flushes him out of the Weapon X compound; he probably appears next in X 142. Jacksons Weapon X team and Soldier Xs Underground lay siege to the compound, and, in a change of heart, Kane sacrifices himself to help them. Colcord disfigures himself and escapes with Jeffries. Then Jackson double-crosses his allies and lays them all out with a mental blast from Nathan, triggered by a code Jackson gives to the Weapon X computer. 
WEAPON X v2 #13 (1-4p5) 
The same day as WX2 12. Colcord escapes the Weapon X compound with Jeffries and Aurora. 
WEAPON X v2 #13  FB (7p3-8p1) 
The same day as WX2 13 (1-4). Marrow evacuates the captured Soldier X, Blaquesmith, Meltdown, and Domino from the Weapon X compound. 
WEAPON X v2 #13  FB (9-11) 
The same day as WX2 13-FB (7-8). Maverick encounters and escapes from Agent Zero. 
WEAPON X v2 #13 (4p6-7p2, 8p2-8p3) 
The same day as WX2 13-FB (9-11). Agent Jackson reports to a mysterious board of directors on these escapes. 
WEAPON X v2 #13 (12-21) 
The same day as WX2 13 (8). It is at least six months before WX2 19-FB. Jackson is appointed the new director of Weapon X. Marrow flies Soldier X and company away and tricks Nathan into thinking that Weapon X is destroyed (after which Nathan reports to the X-Men that Neverland is a myth, not long before WX 18-FB). Dr. Windsor takes another batch of mutants out of Neverland to a secret lab, only to subdue them and reveal himself to be Mr. Sinister. 
WEAPON X v2 #22 (1-7) 
The same night as WX2 13 (1-4). This segment is noted as occurring on day 1, fifteen days  over two weeks  before WX2 22 (8-14). Manifesting another personality, Aurora beats Colcord and strands him and Jeffries in a secluded location. Full moon. 

Thursday, April 10 
WOLVERINE/DOOP #1 (12-22) 
One night, two weeks after W/D 1 (9-11). After working on the Pink Lady case for two weeks, Wolverine and Doop find the Pink Lady and end up suspecting that each other has Code-X, a gene that renders mutants unstable. Orphan and Professor X appear. 
WOLVERINE/DOOP #2 (1-19) 
The same night as W/D 1 (12-22). Wolverine and Doop rescue the Pink Lady from Hunter Joe. Professor X and Orphan appear. 

Friday, April 11 
WOLVERINE/DOOP #2 (20-22) 
The day after W/D 2 (1-19). This segment probably occurs before XS 11 (1-15). After spending the night in Toronto, Wolverine and Doop go their separate ways and share some post-op. Green trees in Toronto and in California, where we see X-Statix (but no El Guapo). 
Saturday, April 12 
X-STATIX #11 (1-15) 
One day. El Guapo is invited to become a member of X-Statix. He goes on a risky first mission and decides to join. Logan makes a guest appearance. We see green trees in California, where it is warm enough for an outdoor party. 

Sunday, April 13 
X-STATIX #11 (16) 
Perhaps the day after XS 11 (1-15). Phat suggests that Myles is falling for El Guapo. 

Saturday, April 19 
X-STATIX #11 (17) 
One day. It is perhaps several days after XS 11 (16), long enough for El Guapo to learn Doop-speak. El Guapo is tempted to cheat on his girlfriend but remains steadfast. Its two weeks before XS 11 (18). 

Monday, April 21 
WEAPON X v2 #14 
One day. As he gets ready to deal with another of his mutant test subjects, Mr. Sinister thinks back to his days working for the Nazis in World War II. 
WEAPON X v2 #22 (8-14) 
One day. It is day 16, or fifteen days  over two weeks  after WX2 22 (1-7), and seven days before WX2 22 (15-18). Colcord and Jeffries are now based at the old Weapon X complex, where we see bare trees and snow. Jeffries has been working with Bot, his new creation, while Colcord, in a drunken stupor, imagines seeing Logan. 

Saturday, April 26 
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (20-21p2) 
One day, months after XX 24 (18-19). Sam and Lila return to Paris, where it isspring and we see green grass and trees. 

Sunday, April 27 
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (21p3-21p4) 
Probably the morning after XX 23 (1-16). In Paris, Cannonball and Lila have breakfast and read an on-line news item about the events of XX 20-22. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #423 
One day. It cannot be a few weeks after UX 422, but rather several months, as noted in UX 424. Nightcrawler, Havok, Polaris, Cyclops, and Jean are all at Xaviers. Logans goatee is gone and he has a new outfit, black with yellow tiger stripes. The Church of Humanity leaves a calling card in front of Xaviers  a bunch of crucified mutants, including Jubilee, Skin, Jesse Bedlam, and Magma, shortly before NM2 3 (1-19); I suggest a Sunday as a symbolic day to do this. Archangels healing powers save some of them, but Angelo dies. Xorn and Xavier cannot be reached; Xavier probably has left the school as he intended to do. After Cyclops chews out Kurt for not briefing the team about the Church, they discover that someones been messing with Kurt through his presumed life as a priest. That night, they find slaughtered mutants beneath St. Michaels Church. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #424 (1-5p1) 
The same night as UX 423. At St. Michaels church, the X-Men discover the plot of the Church of Humanity and decide to head to Montana to fight it. It is several months after the destruction of Genosha in X 115. 

Monday, April 28 
UNCANNY X-MEN #424 (5p2-24p2) 
The day after UX 424 (1-5). It is a few months after UX 422, and the reference that UX 423 is only a few weeks after UX 422 must be incorrect. The X-Men attack the Church of Humanity compound in Montana, where we see green grass. The X-Men prevail. 
WEAPON X v2 #22 (15-18) 
One night. It is day 23, seven days after WX2 22 (8-14) and eleven days before WX2 22 (19-22). Colcord contacts his former superiors, who tell him that Jackson is the new director and that Colcords no longer wanted, despite the fact that recently things have gotten a bit...complicated at Weapon X (an unclear reference). Colcords imaginary Logan tells him to get back into the game. We see bare trees at the old Weapon X complex. Full moon. 

Thursday, May 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN #424 (24p3-24p8) 
One day, days after UX 424 (5-24). Nightcrawler thinks about the Church of Humanitys pope and reflects on his own abiding faith. We see green trees and a butterfly at Xaviers. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #425 (1-4) 
One night. Havok has a romantic dream about Annie. 

Friday, May 2 
UNCANNY X-MEN #425 (5-17p1) 
The day after UX 425 (1-4). Iceman refers to having turned to solid ice the other day. At Alexs bachelor party, Alex comes to grips with his feelings for Annie. Forge is there, but he and Xavier probably have no opportunity to meet, given the reference in MYS 1. At Lornas bachelorette party, Lorna ends up with a stripper dressed like Gambit, while Iceman hooks up with Annie. Xavier is still nowhere to be seen. Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch appear at the parties (and at the wedding). Green grass and trees at Xaviers. 
X-STATIX #11 (18) 
One day, two weeks after XS 11 (17). El Guapo cheats on his girlfriend and Doop takes pictures of the infidelity. 

Saturday, May 3 
UNCANNY X-MEN #425 (17p2-23) 
The day after UX 425 (5-16). It is a few weeks (more like seven) before XX 40. Realizing his true feelings, Alex calls a halt to the wedding ceremony. Professor X is among the attendees, as is Forge, but they may not have had a chance to hook up, as in MYS 1, its been a while since theyve touched base. It also appears that Soldier X and Domino are here, probably sometime between SX 7 and WX2 6 (18-23). Rogue and Gambit are here, but the X-Treme team doesnt seem to be, and neither does Chamber. Magma cannot be one of those present, as she is in a coma. Cannonball is presumably here, based on remarks he makes in XX 40. Green grass and trees at Xaviers, where it is warm enough for an outdoor wedding; in fact, Alex remarks that its hot today. My placement of the wedding here means that Alexs and Lornas engagement lasted several months. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #426 
The same day as UX 425 (17-23). It is a few months after UX 419. Havok refers to UX 424 (5-24) as having occurred recently. He also notes that the last few weeks have been so chaotic. The scorned Polaris attempts to kill Havok and Annie, but shes taken out by Juggernaut. Havok and Annie discover that theyve had a relationship, thanks to the mutant power of Annies son Carter. Alex and Annie jet to Paris for a day to turn their fantasy relationship to reality. This issue must occur before EXILES 28. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. 

Sunday, May 4 
EXILES #28 
Probably the day after UX 426, since Annie tells Paige about her and Alexs time in Paris the previous night. Wolf-kid Nicholas Gleason cuts Havok open and good Alex is replaced by a bad Alex, who attacks the mutants at Xaviers. The Exiles teleport in to stop bad Alex and the Dominant Species werewolves show up. Warren admits his love for Paige and discovers that his uncle is responsible for the shenanigans at Lobo Tech. Wolverine has no goatee and is wearing is tiger-stripe costume. We see green grass and trees and blowing leaves and Xaviers. It is warm enough outdoors for short sleeves. 
EXILES #29 
The same day as EXILES 28. The Exiles and the X-Men battle both the bad Alex and the Dominant Species werewolves. Kurt notes that the X-Mens jets are all out, that they wrecked a few lately, and that Cyclops group has something big going. Green grass and trees in New York. 
EXILES #30 (1-21) 
The same day as EXILES 29. The Exiles and X-Men defeat the werewolves. Nocturne sends bad Alex to the empty void whence he came and good Alex returns. The Tallus gives the Exiles four days to stay with the X-Men, until EXILES 30 (22-23). During that four days, no other X-adventures are likely to occur. Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
WOLVERINE: XISLE #1 (1-22) 
One day. Logan takes Amiko to a museum, then they go to a carnival, where we see green grass and trees and a variety of dress, from shorts and halter tops to jackets. There, Logan gets angry and frustrated, and when he loses control, he forces Amiko to run away from him. Logan then drowns his sorrows at a bar. 

Monday, May 5 
WOLVERINE: XISLE #1 (23) 
The day after W:X 1 (1-22). Logan is passed out on a little island, where he paid a helicopter pilot to drop him off at sunrise. 
WOLVERINE: XISLE #2 
The same day as W:X 1 (23). 
WOLVERINE: XISLE #3 
The same day as W:X 2. 
WOLVERINE: XISLE #4 
The same day as W:X 3. 
WOLVERINE: XISLE #5 
The same day as W:X 4. Logans introspective anger management ends and the pilot arrives to pick him up at sunset. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #4 (1) 
One day. David tells his parents that he is thinking of taking another course  a summer class  at the University of Chicago. 

Tuesday, May 6 
WOLVERINE: SNIKT #1 
One night. While walking in New York City, Logan is approached by a girl named Fusa who demands that he help her save her people from extinction by genocide. Both are pulled into a vortex of space and time. In a future earth, Logan defends himself against cybernetic creatures called the Mandate. 
WOLVERINE: SNIKT #2 
The same night as W:S 1. Logan actually spends this issue in an alternate future. 
WOLVERINE: SNIKT #3 
The same night as W:S 2. Logan actually spends this issue in an alternate future. 
WOLVERINE: SNIKT #4 
The same night as W:S 3. Logan actually spends this issue in an alternate future. 
WOLVERINE: SNIKT #5 
The same night as W:S 4. Logan returns from the alternate future, presumably the same night as he left. 

Thursday, May 8 
EXILES #30 (22-23) 
One day, four days after EXILES 30 (1-21). The Exiles say their goodbyes to the X-Men, and Warren keeps Illyanas sword. Green trees at Xaviers. 
X-STATIX #12 (1-10) 
One day. Dead Girl becomes a fashion model and faces protesters while her teammates start a mission on the India/Pakistan border. Tike fetches Dead Girl for the mission and finds her at X-Statix morgue, where they encounter a mortician with necrophilia. Green grass and trees in California. 
NEW X-MEN #134 (1-2) 
One rainy night. Mutant designer Jumbo Carnation dies in Alphabet City. This event is noted as having occurred the other night in X 135 (1-14). 

Friday, May 9 
NEW X-MEN #134 (3-22) 
The day after X 134 (1-2). Logan is not at Xaviers. Reference is made to Jean being in Hong Kong and expected home soon after being away for a while; however, it seems Jean may run into unexpected delays, as she doesnt make it back home until X 138 (16-23). We see green grass and autumn leaves in Westchester and there is a reference to it being late summerwhich must be topical. 
X-STATIX #12 (11-22) 
The day after XS 12 (1-10). The morticians daughter goes on a shooting spree at her high school and ends up being shot dead by police. Dead Girl kills the mortician to protect the daughter and X-Statix finishes its work in Asia. Green grass and trees in California. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #427 
One day. Warren, Paige, and Jubilee visit Skins grave in Los Angeles, where we see green grass and trees. It is long enough after UX 423 for Angelo to have been buried. In fact, this story may occur after EXILES 30 (22-23). The narration notes that this story occurs after a month that included the attacks by the Church of Humanity and by Polaris  I interpret this to mean that those events occurred in the same month and that this story is set early in the following month. Husk and Jubilee deal with the exhumation and cremation of Angelos body because of cemetery policy regarding mutants, while Archangel uses his healing power to save some hospitalized kids. 
WEAPON X v2 #22 (19-22) 
One day. It is day 34, eleven days after WX2 22 (15-18). Under Colcords direction, Jeffries has created an army of robots at the old Weapon X complex, where we see bare trees and snow. 

Saturday, May 10 
X-STATIX #13 (1-10) 
One day, years after XS 13-FB (1/2p3). Henrietta Hunters spirit inhabits a corpse and alters its appearance to look like herself. This news immediately spreads and Spike Freeman gets X-Statix to fetch her for the team. Once at X-Statix headquarters, the team makes her feel unwelcome and she bolts for Lacunas TV talk show. Xavier is shown here standing, so this story must occur before X 146 (and thus before X 142); it is likely before Xavier announces his intention to step down as headmaster in X 138 (10-14). 

Sunday, May 11 
X-STATIX #13 (11-17) 
Perhaps the day after SX 13 (4-10). After a foiled attempt on Henriettas life, Spike makes her part of X-Statix and the team expresses its displeasure with Spikes unilateral decision. Spike then signs a deal with those who want Henrietta dead to set up a battle between X-Statix and a group of super-powered Euro-Trash. 
NEW X-MEN #135 (1-14) 
A school day at Xaviers. Xavier notes that he is opening the doors to the Institute to non-mutants in three days time. Since X 138 labels Open Day a Wednesday, this then must be a Sunday; X 121 establishes that Xaviers doesnt hold to traditional human school practices, so there may very well be Sunday classes. Quentin Quire has changed considerably in recent weeks. Quire refers to the murder of Jumbo Carnation in X 134 (1-2) as having occurred the other night. Glob Herman probably appears here after UX 416. We see green grass and trees in Westchester and its seasonable enough for Xorns Special Class (which is convening for the first time) to go camping. Because of its special nature, Xorns class may not follow the traditional semester. High on kick, Quentin Quire and his Omega Gang assault a group of mutant-hating youths. 

Monday, May 12 
NEW X-MEN #135 (15-22) 
The day after X 135 (1-14). Xavier discusses the Quire situation telepathically with his X-Men, including Jean, who is still in Hong Kong, and Logan, who isnt necessarily at Xaviers. Xorn continues the camping trip with the Special Class. Green grass and trees. 
X-STATIX #13 (18-21) 
Perhaps the day after XS 13 (11-17). While in New York to attend the opening of the new X-Statix megastore, X-Statix are attacked by the Euro-Trash and Spider-Man joins the fray. It appears to be warm in Manhattan. 
X-STATIX #14 (1-19) 
The same day as XS 13 (18-21). X-Statix and Spidey battle the Euro-Trash, who retreat inside the store and hold Henrietta hostage. X-Statix leave the scene, but after Doop shows them how Spike Freemans been manipulating them, the team ties him up and returns to destroy the Euro-Trash and free Henrietta. Spidey kind of gets lost in the shuffle. At a follow-up press conference, Henrietta announces she intends to use X-Statix to continue her charitable work and to change the teams costumes. 

Tuesday, May 13 
NEW X-MEN #136 (1-21) 
The night of the day after X 135 (15-22). The Omega Gang attacks a group of U-Men, and a squad of U-Men attacks the Special Class, who are still on the camping trip. Beak and Angel have sex, apparently for the first time, given the dialog. Xorn defeats the U-Men and the class is taken back to Xaviers school, where the Omega Gang capture Xavier. It is before a Friday. Green grass and trees. 

Wednesday, May 14 
NEW X-MEN #136 (22) 
The morning after X 136 (1-21). It is Open Day at Xaviers, the day that Xavier has invited non-mutants to tour the school for possible enrollment, perhaps for the semester following this. The Omega Gang begin their attack on the school. According to XX 24, this issue occurs after XX 23. Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
NEW X-MEN #137 (1-10) 
The same day as X 136 (22). Wolverine is sporting a goatee once more. The Omega Gang cause chaos at the Institute. Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #11  FB (16) 
The same day as X 137 (1-10). Laurie Collins hides as the Omega Gangs riot rages. Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
NEW X-MEN #137 (11-22) 
The same day as NM2 11-FB (16). The X-Men battle the Omega Gang. In the end, Quentin Quire is defeated and Sophie of the Stepford Cuckoos is killed. Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
NEW X-MEN #138 (1-6) 
The same day as X 137. The X-Men deal with the aftermath of the Omega Gangs riot on a Wednesday. Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (21p5-22p1) 
One day. Still in Paris, Cannonball and Lila learn of the riot at Xaviers via the internet, so this segment may occur the same day as X 137. 

Thursday, May 15 
NEW X-MEN #138 (7-9) 
It is presumably a Tuesday, six days after X 138 (1-6), but Emma mentions that Sophie died yesterday, making this segment the day after X 137, a Thursday. The remaining Stepford Cuckoos announce that they will depart Xaviers after the upcoming prize-giving ceremony and walk out on Emma; this notice may be months in advance  the Cuckoos may intend to stick it out for the rest of the school year, then transfer to an exclusive school that may not have openings until the summer. Emma notes that she is twenty-seven; this would make her a teenager at the time of her debut in UX 129. Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
X-STATIX #14 (20-22) 
One day. It is probably a few days after XS 14 (1-19)  long enough for Henrietta to get lots of fan mail, design new costumes, and raise awareness and money for various causes, but no too long, as Spike Freeman is still trussed up in his bathrobe. With Henriettas Q-rating outstripping the rest of the team and demands for her to become team leader, X-Statix decide that she must die. 
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (22p2) 
One day. Cannonball learns that things with the X-Treme team are serious, though Im not sure what the exact reference is. 

Friday, May 16 
UNCANNY X-MEN #429 
One day. It must be more than a few weeks after UX 422. It is some time after UX 406 (1-21). One early morning, Nightcrawler inexplicably jets off from Westchester and as Xavier prepares to send a team after him, he has an altercation with Juggernaut and a restrained Polaris spouts off at Annie. Several hours later, the X-Men arrive at Isla des Demonas, where they find Kurt participating in a strange ritual. We see a full moon and green grass and trees at Xaviers and bathing suit weather off Florida. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #430 
The same day as UX 429. It must be more than a few weeks after UX 422. Sammy is abused by his father at his home in Vancouver, where we see green trees. Xorn wants to put Carter in his special class (and reveals some Magneto-like thoughts). Xavier and Annie explore Lornas mind to find the reason for her recent behavior. The X-Men are attacked by demonic creatures as they try to rescue Kurt from Isla des Demonas, Iceman is blown to bits, and the group is engulfed in a powerful telepathic blast. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #431 
The same day as UX 429. Polaris shows Xavier and Annie her experience in Genosha. Juggernaut and Northstar jet to Vancouver (where we see green trees) to see Sammy. The X-Men battle demon-like creatures. Mystique emerges from Abyss dimensional hole, having been trapped in there since UX 406. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #432 
The same day as UX 431. Given Xorn has not yet revealed is identity in UX 430 and Xavier is still walking here, this issue must occur before X 146; indeed, since Scott is still with the X-Men, this issue must occur before X 139 (1-20). 
UNCANNY X-MEN #433 
The same day as UX 432. Juggernauts battle with Alpha Flight results in the accidental injury of Sammys mother. Nightcrawler learns from Azazel the truth behind his teleportation power, and when Xavier, Annie, and Lorna arrive at La Isla des Demonas to search for Carter, Polaris opens a portal to Azazels dimension. Green trees in Vancouver. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #434 
The same day as UX 433. It is three days before UX 435 (1-18). Seeing what his battle has wrought, Juggernaut gives up the fight with Alpha Flight. Iceman re-forms, Kurt battles Azazel, and the X-Men, Carter, Mystique, Abyss, and Kiwi Black escape from Azazels dimension, with Polaris help. Given Xorn has not yet revealed is identity in UX 430 and Xavier is still walking there, this issue must occur before X 146; indeed, since Scott is still with the X-Men in UX 429, this issue must occur before X 139 (1-20). Mystique must appear here before MYS 1 (9-23) and Jubilee is probably here before XU2 2/2 (1-10). Green grass and trees in Vancouver and Westchester. 

Saturday, May 17 
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (22p3-23) 
One day. Cannonball calls Storm to Paris, where we see green trees. Storm wears the miniskirt we saw in XX 23. He accepts her offer to join the X-Treme team. 
X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #2/2 (1-10) 
One rainy day, two days before XU2 2/2 (11). Jubilee probably appears here after UX 434. The Xavier Institute is still standing and Cyclops is there, so this segment must occur before X 138 (16-23). In an attempt to help a friend making trouble in a local mall, Jubilee attacks local police who are called in. Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
X-STATIX #15 (3-11) 
One day, some years after XS 15-FB (1-2). As random sniper attacks claim lives throughout the country, Henrietta Hunter takes a break in the Caribbean after all the chat-shows and merchandising deals. X-Statix appear on the scene to kill her, but Lacuna makes the team think twice about that course of action. Green trees in Florida. 

Sunday, May 18 
X-STATIX #15 (12-18) 
Perhaps the day after XS 15 (3-11). X-Statix hope to rid themselves of Henrietta while on a mission in Afghanistan, but Phat ends up saving her life and El Guapo loses his legs. 

Monday, May 19 
X-STATIX #15 (19-20) 
Perhaps the day after XS 15 (12-18). The random shootings continue and Henrietta decides to stop the killing. 
X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #2/2 (11) 
One day, two days after XU2 2/2 (1-10). At the mall, Jubilee is dissed by a boy because shes a mutant. Some folks are seen wearing jackets and others arent. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #435 (1-18) 
One day, three days after UX 434. Among the recent events Xavier mentions in this issue is a student uprising, so this story must occur after X 138 (1-6). Juggernaut is incarcerated at a high-tech Canadian facility and Jennifer Walters reviews his case as his attorney. As counsel confers with Xavier (sans wheelchair), Kurt, Warren, Bobby, and Paige, the Rhino (being subjected to some kind of experiment here sometime after his apprehension in PPSM2 50) attempts to bust out of the facility. In the melee that ensues, Cain is accidentally released from his bonds and battles and defeats Rhino, then he passes up an opportunity to flee and instead surrenders to a facility guard. Green grass and trees in Vancouver. 

Tuesday, May 20 
UNCANNY X-MEN #435 (19-20) 
Probably the day after UX 435 (1-18), judging by the fact that people from pages 1-18 are now wearing different clothes. Cains surrender and the situation with the Rhino result in a reduced sentence for Cain and his release from the Canadian facility. Cain and Jennifer become friendly. 
X-STATIX #15 (21-22) 
Perhaps the day after XS 15 (19-20). At a press conference, Henrietta announces that she will stop the random killings by accepting the position of Secretary of Homeland Defense. Green trees in Washington, DC. 

Wednesday, May 21 
UNCANNY X-MEN #435 (21-23) 
The morning after UX 435 (19-20). Cain and Jen are in bed after having spent the night together, presumably in Vancouver, where we see green grass and trees. A figure in Juggernaut gear appears outside their room. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #436 
The same day as UX 435 (21-23). Cain and Jen battle the ersatz Juggernaut, who turns out to be the animal-torturing boy from XU 44. Attorneys debate the fate of Juggernaut and when Sammy Pares mother testifies on Cains behalf, Juggernauts sentence is reduced and he is extradited. Given that A3 65 leads to Jens mass destruction of property in A3 73-75 and the fact that she holds that kind of destruction against Juggernaut in UX 435, this story probably occurs before A3 65. Publication order suggests Jens placement here before S-H 1. Because Xavier is without his wheelchair here, and because the list of things he relates as overwhelming in UX 435 does not include Magnetos destruction of the school, this story must occur before X 142. Green grass and trees in Vancouver. 

Thursday, May 22 
NEW X-MEN #138 (10-14) 
A Thursday. Xorn helps Quentin Quire cast off his physical body and achieve another plane of existence; it is not known how long Quire may have spent at Xaviers in a catatonic state; it is presumed that this is the Thursday of the week following X 138 (7-9), but isnt necessarily so. Xavier notes that the school will be closing for the summer in exactly six days  this may be the date that all students who attend Xaviers during the regular academic year should be gone; as we see in NM2, the school does remain open for relatively few students in the summer. He also notes that after the break, he will step down as headmaster. Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
WEAPON X v2 #18  FB 
One day, several weeks before WX 18. Cyclops notes that Cable recently informed the X-Men that Neverland is a myth, following WX2 13. Logan tells the X-Men that its time to take down Weapon X and that the way to do it is to plant a mole in the organization. Among those gathered is Xavier, who is sitting, but not in a wheelchair. Chamber volunteers to be the mole. 
WEAPON X v2 #15 
Perhaps the same day as WX2 18-FB. Xaviers school is still standing and Cyclops is with the X-Men, so this story must occur before X 138 (16-23). Chambers act to get him noticed by Weapon X goes into effect: he causes trouble in a Manhattan bar and the X-Men (Cyclops, Archangel, Husk, Iceman, and Wolverine) try to talk him down, but when Jono lashes out at them, they subdue him and hand him over to the authorities. Hours later, Brent Jackson shows up in Chambers prison cell to offer him a place in Weapon X. We see green grass and trees and warm picnic weather at Xaviers, but we also see autumn leaves, which may be topical. 
X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #1 
One night. Sage breaks into the New York office of a former shareholder in the Hellfire Club to retrieve a dossier about her. Green trees in New York. Full moon. 

Friday, May 23 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #500 
The same day as ASM2 58. Led by Strange, Spidey battles his way through time to end up moments before the arrival of Dormammu and saves the day, helping the heroes drive the Mindless Ones back to their dimension. Reed is not disfigured, so this story may occur after FF 511. Cyclops probably appears here before X 138 (16-23). It is Peters birthday (so this story should occur at the same time of year as S-M 21), and Strange gives him a present  five minutes to speak to Uncle Ben, whos been snatched out of time. We see a full moon, and M.J. mentions the moonlight specifically. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #1 (10-25) 
One school day. Rejected on her sixteenth birthday by her father and her classmates, Sofia Mantega destroys one of her fathers supermarkets and is thrown in jail. Dani Moonstar shows up to take Sofia to Xaviers, which is publicly known as a school for mutants with bad publicity, a clue that this segment occurs after the riot in X 138 (1-6). It is clear that Dani does not live at Xaviers, but rather in Colorado. It is a Friday in May. We see green grass and trees in Boulder. 
NEW X-MEN #138 (15) 
The day after X 138 (10-14), a Friday. Emma Frost goes clothes shopping with Angel. According to X 140, this segment occurs a few days before X 139 (21-22). 

Saturday, May 24 
NEW X-MEN #138 (16-23) 
The day after X 138 (15), a Saturday. Given Scotts presence in WX 15, W/CA 4 (17-21), and XU2 2/2 (1-10), those stories must occur before this segment. We see a prize-giving ceremony at Xaviers  this is a year-end ceremony that probably occurs between the end of the spring session and the beginning of the summer session shown in NM2 2. Angel informs Beak that shes pregnant with his child; this revelation so soon after their apparent first sexual encounter in X 136 (1-21) is an indication that Angels physiology is radically different from a normal humans; this is confirmed by Beaks statement in X 141 that there is a life cycle of, like, only five days between the sex and the birth, but this doesnt mean that Angels pregnancy lasts only that long  it cant be less than five days after X 136 (1-21), given the other temporal references in this run of issues. That night, Jean Grey returns to Xaviers with Dust, who she may have retrieved after Dust spent some time in India after X 133. Jean finds Scott and Emma in a compromising situation; this segment probably occurs after ASM 500. That Jean is fetching mutants for Xaviers may be a clue that this segment occurs before NM2 2, in which Dani gets the job of recruiter. Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
NEW X-MEN #139 (1-20) 
The same night as X 138 (16-23). An angry Jean mucks around with Emmas mind and the X-Men grow concerned about Jeans Phoenix power. Cyclops takes off (and probably doesnt return until just before NM2 10). The Stepford Cuckoos state that school is over for the summer, implying that, while the school itself is to close on the upcoming Wednesday, classes are already over. We see green grass and trees at Xaviers. 

Monday, May 26: Memorial Day 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #2 (1-20p1) 
One day shortly after NM2 1 (10-25)  at least long enough for a train ride from Colorado to New York; it is unlikely that NM2 1 (10-25) occurred yesterday, as noted in this issue. NM2 2-FB is noted as having occurred last year. This story occurs after NM2 11-FB (16), and so after the riot at Xaviers. Dani and Sofia arrive at Xaviers, where they meet Professor X, who notes that it is the start of the summer session and that some students have gone home for the summer. This is an indication that this issue occurs after the prize-giving ceremony in X 138 (16-23). The fact that some students remain for classes appears to contradict the statement in X 138 (10-14) that the school would close for the summer. Xavier is still here, apparently before the time he planned to leave the school, as noted in X 138 (10-14). Dani is no longer a teenager, but it wasnt long ago that she was. Dani arranges for Sofia to room with Laurie Collins. Northstar appears here. Green grass and trees and jacket weather at Xaviers. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #11  FB (18p1) 
The same day as NM2 2 (1-20). Laurie finds Sofia unpacking in her room. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #2 (20p2-22) 
The same day as NM2 11-FB (18p1). Laurie meets Sofia. Dani agrees to be Xaviers recruiter  presumably after Jeans assumption of that role through X 138 (16-23). 

Tuesday, May 27 
NEW X-MEN #139 (21-22) 
One night. According to X 140, this segment occurs a few days after X 138 (15). Beast finds Emmas diamond body smashed to pieces. 

Wednesday, May 28 
NEW X-MEN #140 (1-14) 
The day after X 139 (21-22). It is sometime after XX 23 (17-22). Summer vacation is cancelled until further notice, while Bishop and Sage are called in to investigate Emma Frosts murder. That summer vacation reference may be for the benefit of those students who havent yet left for the summer; I have summer classes actually having just started (in NM2 2) by this time. Late this day, the Stepford Cuckoos note that school ought to have closed for summer by now (at least for those who dont take summer classes), so it is likely that this is the day the school was scheduled to close, six days after X 138 (10-14). Scott is still absent and Nightcrawler is here. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. 

Thursday, May 29 
NEW X-MEN #140 (15-22) 
The day after X 140 (1-14). Bishop and Sage continue their investigation, and Angels brood of larvae are discovered. 
NEW X-MEN #141 
The same day as X 140 (15-22). Angels brood hatches. The X-Men discover that Angel and Beak were set up to take the fall for Emmas murder by Esme and a partner whose identity remains unknown, as Esme mind-wipes Bishop and Sage to escape. Phoenix fuses Emmas diamond pieces back together, allowing Emmas disembodied spirit to return to her body. The missing Scott is now the prime suspect. Although not shown, presumably the lockdown at Xaviers is lifted at this point, and Xavier may relieve Bishop and Sage of their services. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. Esme makes another reference to summer. 

Friday, May 30 
ALIAS #28 
The same day as ALIAS 27 (19-22). As Cage and Jessica officially become a couple after this issue, this story must occur before SECWAR 1 (1-3). Jessica faces Killgrave, who tells her that Scotts condition is imagined by her at his instigation. As Killgrave proceeds to order Manhattanites to kill one another, Jean Grey appears to Jessica in a psychic projection and tells her about the psychic defense trigger she planted in Jessicas mind. When the Avengers arrive on the scene and Killgrave orders Jessica to kill Cap, she activates the trigger and beats up Killgrave. As the defeated villain is carried away, Jessica breaks up with Scott, as she is three months pregnant with a child that could have been Scotts (thus its at least three months after ALIAS 14?), but isnt. That night, the Bugle proclaims Jessica a hero, Cage confesses his feelings for Jessica, and she informs him that shes pregnant with his child. Warbird is with the Avengers and shes not in the new costume she adopted in A3 65, so this story must occur before A3 65. This means that the new costumes worn by Jack of Hearts and She-Hulk are seen here first, before A3 65. Jan wears the costume seen in A3 71. This also means that Subbys appearance with the Avengers here must occur after his departure from the team in A3 61; it is not known why he would have returned for this appearance. Jean notes that we have our hands full where my actual body is; this may be a reference to the continuing investigation of Emma Frosts murder after X 141; Jeans very presence here indicates that this story occurs before X 142. Green grass and trees in New York. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #3 (1-19) 
One day. While Magma lays in a coma (where shes been since just after UX 423), Dani recruits a mutant with decaying power in Atlanta, where we see green grass and trees. School is in session, both at Xaviers (where Beast is teaching as part of summer session) and at a public high school (its not summer vacation yet, and it cant be a holiday), where student Kevin Ford hasnt reported for the last two days. There is a reference to finals at the high school, and Dani claims to represent a summer program. We see short sleeves at Xaviers. 
X-TREME X-MEN #25 
One day. It is probably a weekday during the college year. Given Kurts conversation with Logan in W3 6, it appears that W3 6 must occur before this issue. In freeing Stryker from incarceration, Deathstrike makes it appear that Stryker was killed in an airplane explosion by the X-Men. We see snow in the Rockies and green trees in Kentucky, where Cannonball has invited Storm, Bishop, Sage, and Wolverine (sans goatee, perhaps after X 141). The X-Men investigate the site of the plane crash. Kitty sees her school psychologist, and that night, she is abducted from the Belles of Hell by Deathstrike and Stryker. 
X-TREME X-MEN #26 
The same day as XX 25. The X-Treme team battle Strykers troops in the snowy Rockies and take captives as they try to figure out what Stryker is up to. Stryker tries to break Kittys will, but fails. Deathstrike is forced to try to kill Stryker by the man who runs Mount Haven, who views Stryker as a threat. Stryker escapes with Kitty in hand. 
X-TREME X-MEN #27 (1-13) 
The same night as XX 26. Shadowcat phases cross-country as the earth as it spins on its axis, causing Storm to lose control in the Rockies, creating a blizzard and undoing all the good work....accomplished these past months in physical therapy. Waning crescent moon. 

Saturday, May 31 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #3 (20-22) 
The day after NM2 3 (1-19). Kevin Ford is examined at Xaviers and Xavier reveals the comatose Magma to Dani, who is wearing the same clothes she wore the previous day  an indication that this scene may occur in the wee hours of the morning after NM2 3 (1-19), technically the next day. 
X-TREME X-MEN #27 (14-23) 
The day after XX 27 (1-13). Kitty finds herself in Mt. Haven, where we see green grass and trees and warm weather. 
X-TREME X-MEN #28 
The same day as XX 27 (14-23). Stryker and Deathstrike defeat Kitty and the X-Treme team at Mt. Haven, where we see green trees and warm weather. Cannonball vows to save the day. 
X-TREME X-MEN #29 
The same day as XX 28. Cannonball fights Deathstrike after she seemingly kills Logan, then he faces a brainwashed Storm. Bishop faces a brainwashed Sage. Stryker shows Kitty the truth behind Mt. Haven, then strikes her and Reverend Paul down. Green grass and trees and warm weather in Washington state. 
X-TREME X-MEN #30 
The same day as XX 29. Logan recovers and many of Mt. Havens nannite-infested residents die when Paul is out of commission. Stryker and Kitty discover that Paul is a cybernetic sentient and Stryker sacrifices his freedom to keep Paul contained. That night in Chicago, the X-Men hang at the Belles of Hell and Kitty considers running for alderman in a municipal election this fall. Green grass and trees in Washington state. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #4 (2-11) 
One day. This segment may well occur the same day as NM2 3 (20-22). Xavier sends Dani (in a change of clothing from NM2 3) to Chicago to recruit David Alleyne, who turns out to be an acquaintance of Karma. (It must be after the lockdown from X 140-141 has been lifted.) Shan graduates from the University of Chicago, where we see light clothing and a commencement ceremony. Xavier checks up on Magma, who is still in a coma. Kevin Ford is given a clean bill of health; it may be quite a while after his arrival at Xaviers, given the comment, Its about time we got you into class. Green grass and trees and light clothing at Xaviers. Shan notes that summer session starts Monday. 

Sunday, June 1 
X-STATIX #16 (1-3) 
One day, long enough after XS 15 (12-18) for El Guapo to recover from the loss of his legs. As the random killings continue, Henrietta introduces new X-Statix costumes. Her photo is taken for the Time Magazine cover seen in XS 16 (4-). 

Monday, June 2 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #4 (12-24) 
The Monday after NM2 4 (2-11). It is the first day of class during summer session at the University of Chicago. David is outed as a mutant and decides to accompany Dani back to Xaviers. Shan and her siblings decide to join them. Green grass and trees in Chicago. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #11  FB (18p2) 
Probably the same night as NM2 4 (12-24). We see Laurie, Sofia, Kevin, and David at a table in the cafeteria at Xaviers. I interpret this scene as a dinner occurring right after David arrives at the school; these four are seen again, in different clothes, at the same cafeteria table in NM2 5 (5-24). 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #5 (1-4) 
Probably the same night as NM2 4 (12-24). Donald Pierce has a meeting of the Reavers, now a group of mutant-hating humans. Among their recruits is Josh Foley. Sofias father is in New York on business and wants no contact with his daughter. 

Tuesday, June 3 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #5 (5-23p1) 
The day after NM2 5 (1-4). Logan instructs a class in self- defense at the Institute, while Xavier offers Shan a job there. Shan suggests that her siblings get the summer off before returning to school and Xavier notes that things are fairly quiet during the summer. Dani and Shan take Sofia, Laurie, Kevin, and David into Manhattan and the four kids are lured into an ambush by the Reavers. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #11  FB (18p3-18p4) 
The same night as NM2 5 (5-23). Laurie uses her power to scare away Reavers. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #5 (23p2-23p6) 
The same night as NM2 11-FB (18p2-18p4). Lauries power affects Kevin. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #11  FB (18p5) 
The same night as NM2 5 (23). Pierce stabs Laurie through the heart. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #5 (24) 
The same night as NM2 11-FB (18p5). Josh and Kevin watch the stabbing. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #6 (1-3p2) 
The same night as NM2 5 (24). As Sofia, David, and Shan fight the Reavers, Pierce drops the stabbed Laurie to the floor. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #11  FB (20p1) 
The same night as NM2 6 (1-3). Laurie lies at the feet of Pierce. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #6 (3p3-4p5) 
The same night as NM2 11-FB (20p1). Kevin attacks Pierce and Josh tries to heal Laurie. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #11  FB (20p2-20p3) 
The same night as NM2 6 (3-4). Josh saves Laurie. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #6 (4p6-24) 
The same night as NM2 11-FB (20p2-20p3). This segment presumably occurs months before NM 13 (1-2), but it may only be weeks before. Kevin uses his death touch on Pierce and Dani stops him from killing the cyborg by using her illusion power. Pierce is taken into custody and the kids return to Xaviers, where we see green grass and trees. Josh returns home, but is spurned by friends and family as a mutant and, with nowhere else to go, arrives at Xaviers. Frightened by his actions, Kevin leaves Xaviers and Dani decides to quit, branding herself a failure as a teacher. But Shan, Xavier, and the remaining kids convince her to stay. Since Xavier is walking here, this segment must occur before X 146 and thus probably before X 142. 

Wednesday, June 4 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #7  FB 
One school day at Xaviers, sometime between NM2 6 (4-24) and NM2 7 (1-15). Josh Foley attends classes taught by Warren Worthington, Dani Moonstar, and Shan Coy Manh. Xaviers school is whole and functioning, so this story must occur before X 142, the beginning of the story that leads to the destruction of the school. 
X-STATIX #16 (4-7) 
One day, long enough after XS 16 (1-3) for Time Magazine to publish Henriettas photo. Henrietta hopes to stumble upon the random killers. 

Thursday, June 5 
X-STATIX #16 (8-9) 
One day. Henrietta tries to get the dead to help her find the random killers, but Dead Girl blocks her attempt. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #7 (1-15) 
One school day at Xaviers, where we see green grass and autumn leaves (which must be topical). This segment occurs some days before XX 34 and during the week before NM2 8 (1-5). Josh Foley writes home about his life at Xaviers (he mentions classes with Hank McCoy, Emma Frost  post-X 141  and Tom Corsi). He notes that he hasnt written since coming to Xaviers (implying a while has passed) and that he saved Lauries life this summer, more clues that some time has passed since NM2 6, but given Xaviers chronology, this story is more likely to occur very shortly after NM2 6. Josh uses his healing power to jump-start Magmas brain, lifting her out of her coma. Unfortunately, when she awakens she blasts a big hole in the school and runs away. 

Friday, June 6 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #7 (16-18) 
The day after NM2 7 (1-15). It is two weeks before NM2 7 (19-22). With Jean and Northstar present, Xavier gives Josh detention for his reckless act of the day before. We see green grass and the last of autumn leaves falling from bare trees at Xaviers. 
X-STATIX #16 (10-14) 
One day. The random killings have been going on for a few weeks, and Henrietta is held accountable for the lack of progress in apprehending the killers. Lacuna makes a pass at Guy and is rebuffed, then she receives documents that would destroy Spike Freemans reputation. 
X-TREME X-MEN #31 (1-2) 
One night. In Los Angeles, Cutter, Porous, Dervish and company cause a car accident in which a girl named Marie is seriously injured. Mention is made of the state championship for cheerleading. 

Saturday, June 7 
X-STATIX #16 (15-22) 
One day. Lacuna tells Guy about the documents she received and how they would implicate not only Spike, but Edie as well. Guy confronts Spike about it and ends up killing him. Guy catches up to Lacuna, who gets shot by a sniper working for Mister Code. Green grass and trees in Washington, DC and California, where it is warm enough for outdoor swimming. 
X-STATIX #17 (1-9) 
The same day as XS 16 (15-22). Because Henrietta is Secretary of Homeland Defense, it is likely that this story occurs before IM3 73, the storyline that leads to Tony Starks bid for Secretary of Defense. Orphan catches the sniper, who kills himself. X-Statix ports to the law offices where they try to steal incriminating documents linking them to illegal arms and drug trades and other crimes. 
X-TREME X-MEN #31 (3-22) 
Probably the day after XX 31 (1-2). A Genoshan survivor slays a group of black marketeers in east Africa, and Marie recovers in a Los Angeles hospital. Val Cooper gives a presentation on the mutant threat at the presidential ranch in Texas, where Storm and Remy are undercover and we see green grass and trees and a barbecue; it is unclear whether the president appears here before or after X 150 (1-31). On assignment for the L.A. Division of X-Corp, Bishop and Sage deal with a dangerous mutant, then the duo check in on Rogue and the new life shes adopted in L.A., where we see green grass and trees as well. That night, they go to a club and meet up with Sam, Lila Cheney, and an anti-mutant terrorist with a bomb. 
X-TREME X-MEN #32 (1-17) 
The same night as XX 31 (3-22). This segment is referred to as having occurred the other night in XX 33 (5-13). Sam removes the terrorist from the club, then takes off with Lila. Rogue apprehends the terrorist, Marie Dancanto. Storm and Remy blow their cover at the presidential ranch. Green grass and trees in L.A and Texas. Full moon. 
X-TREME X-MEN #33 (14-16) 
The same night as XX 32 (1-17). At the presidential compound, Storm outlines her plan for diffusing the growing rift between human and mutant. As it picks up right from the scene in Texas in XX 32, this scene must occur out of sequence from the rest of this issue because more time passes in the Marie Dancanto storyline. From the conversation, it appears obvious that this segment occurs before X 142, the storyline that leads to Magnetos victory. Green trees and warm weather in Texas. Full moon. 

Sunday, June 8 
X-TREME X-MEN #32 (18-23) 
The morning after XX 32 (1-17). Marie Dancanto tells Rogue her story of hatred for mutants. 
X-STATIX #17 (10-22) 
Probably the day after XS 17 (1-9). The X-Statix scandal breaks and the team decides to go after Mister Code to redeem themselves. With help from the dead Spike Freeman, the team locates Code and defeats him. A boy wishes for a scooter for Christmas in his prayers, but this doesnt necessarily mean that the holiday is approaching. 
X-STATIX #18 (1-4) 
The same day as XS 17 (10-22). Codes body explodes, killing Henrietta and Phat. Henriettas record company decides to exploit her death by releasing a new CD called Back from the Dead. 

Monday, June 9 
X-TREME X-MEN #33 (1, 3-4) 
Perhaps the day after XX 32 (18-23)  enough time has to have passed for groups of people to organize support of and opposition to Marie Dancanto, who appears in court to plead not guilty to her attempted suicide bombing in XX 32 (1-17). 
MYSTIQUE #1 (1-8) 
One night. It must be a weeknight, as Charles Xavier appears on Nightline. Jean is at Xaviers. We learn that Xavier has covert operatives in the world and that one has been killed on a mission. 

Tuesday, June 10 
MYSTIQUE #1 (9-23) 
The early morning after MYS 1 (1-8). At 2:54 AM, Xavier arrives at Forges apartment in Baltimore to ask him to find Mystique. From the dialogue, it appears that Xavier and Forge have been out of touch for quite a while; perhaps they had no opportunity to connect at the wedding in UX 425 (17-23); in any event, that likely places this story, through MYS 6 (16-22), before W/CA 1-FB. At 3:12 AM, Mystique is on a mission in Washington DC. She must appear here following the Draco storyline in UX 434. 
MYSTIQUE #2 
The same early morning as MYS 1 (9-23). It is a few months before MYS 11-FB. At 3:27 AM, Forge discovers the whereabouts of Mystique, who is captured by government agents at 3:29 AM. At 4:36 AM, the captive Mystique awakens in a DHS flying justice unit, where she faces Johnny Kitano, a mutant whose mission is to eliminate mutant threats to the government. Mystique is rescued by Xavier, who is disguised as Magneto. Full moon. 
MYSTIQUE #3 
The same day as MYS 2. Xavier and Forge send Mystique to Cuba on a clandestine mission to destroy two mutant-killing robots. Once there, she meets her handler, Shortpack. Green vegetation in New York. 
MYSTIQUE #4 
The same day as MYS 3. Mystique insinuates her way to Luis Disovil, the man who purchased the Sentinels and is conducting experiments on Cuban mutants. She assumes his identity, only to face a band of freedom fighters, led by Lazaro Rivera. 
MYSTIQUE #5 
The same night as MYS 4. Mystique sides with the freedom fighters and battles Disovils soldiers. She finds the kidnaped children, only to learn that she must kill Lazaros little sister Evangelina to stop the Sentinels. 
MYSTIQUE #6 (1-15) 
The same night as MYS 5. Lazaro kills Evangelina and kills himself. Mystique, the rebels, and the freed mutants evacuate Disovils base before the Sentinels destoy it. Mystique reports back to Shortpack. 
X-TREME X-MEN #33 (5-13) 
Perhaps the day after XX 33 (3-4). XX 32 (1-17) is referred to as having occurred the other night. Rogue has a nightmare early this morning, then the X-Corp lawyer shows up to try to talk Rogue and Sam (who has returned with Lila), who he believes to be baseline human, into selling Rogues home. Lila ports Bishop to New York. 
X-TREME X-MEN #33 (17-23) 
The same night as XX 33 (5-13). Rogue and Sam attack Cutter, Porous, Dervish and company at their beach hangout while Sage arrives at X-Corp Los Angeles, which she discovers is the employer of the lawyer. Full moon. 

Wednesday, June 11 
MYSTIQUE #6 (16-22) 
The morning after MYS 6 (1-15). At 12:31 am, Mystique is asked to be a double agent by a man in a bar in Santiago de Cuba. Later that morning (the next morning), Mystique arrives at her safehouse in Brooklyn, where Xavier congratulates her on a job well done. Green vegetation in Brooklyn. 
X-TREME X-MEN #34 
Probably the day after XX 33 (17-23). It is some days after NM2 7 (1-15). Magma arrives in L.A. and she and Sam visit Roberto at X-Corp. The charges against Cutter, Porous, Dervish, and company are dismissed in court, an indication that its a weekday. That night, Rogue fights Revenant and Manacle and tails them back to X-Corp, where she confronts Roberto. Green trees in southern California. Fu
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Apr 2004 01:12 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Your calendar kind of cuts off in the middle there... :sad:

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Apr 2004 05:47 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Tuesday, April 1 
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (22p3-23) 
One day. Cannonball calls Storm to Paris, where we see green trees. Storm wears the miniskirt we saw in XX 23. He accepts her offer to join the X-Treme team. 

Saturday, May 17 
X-TREME X-MEN #24 (22p3-23) 
One day. Cannonball calls Storm to Paris, where we see green trees. Storm wears the miniskirt we saw in XX 23. He accepts her offer to join the X-Treme team. 
<<<
 


You've got this segment listed twice.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2004 08:16 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Drat! I hate it when that happens. "Cut and paste," Paul, not "copy and paste." :rolling eyes: Anyway, the May 17 listing is the correct one. Ignore April 1. 


Quote: 
>>>
Your calendar kind of cuts off in the middle there...  
<<<


Double drat! I'll post June 11 to the end... :confused:
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2004 08:20 pm    Post subject: The rest of it
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Wednesday, June 11 
MYSTIQUE #6 (16-22) 
The morning after MYS 6 (1-15). At 12:31 am, Mystique is asked to be a double agent by a man in a bar in Santiago de Cuba. Later that morning (the next morning), Mystique arrives at her safehouse in Brooklyn, where Xavier congratulates her on a job well done. Green vegetation in Brooklyn. 
X-TREME X-MEN #34 
Probably the day after XX 33 (17-23). It is some days after NM2 7 (1-15). Magma arrives in L.A. and she and Sam visit Roberto at X-Corp. The charges against Cutter, Porous, Dervish, and company are dismissed in court, an indication that its a weekday. That night, Rogue fights Revenant and Manacle and tails them back to X-Corp, where she confronts Roberto. Green trees in southern California. Full moon. 
X-TREME X-MEN #35 (1-22) 
The same night as XX 34. Roberto uses X-Corp employees Skitz and Stringfellow to keep Rogue and Sam occupied while he and Amara investigate X-Corps link to the shady deals in Valle Soleada. Elias Bogan, who is calling the shots behind the scenes, sends Cutter, Porous and Dervish against Rogue and Sam, but they are defeated. Vazhin informs Storm that the government has provisionally accepted her proposal to form the XSE strike force, but first she and Remy must infiltrate a mutant gladiator arena run by Tullemore Voge in Tokyo. Green grass and trees in California and Texas. Full moon. 

Thursday, June 12 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #8 (1-5) 
One day, during the week after NM2 7 (1-15)  that places this segment before NM2 7 (19-22). We see bare trees and green grass at Xaviers, where the Institute is preparing for Parents Week, apparently for parents of the summer session students. 
X-STATIX #18 (5-21) 
One day. It must be several days after XS 19 (1-4). Phat is buried. The deceased Henrietta fatally curses all those who start to sing her newly released song, and one of the victims is El Guapo. The team helps Henrietta get her revenge on those responsible for her first death so she can rest in peace and lift the curse. Green grass and trees. 
X-TREME X-MEN #35 (23) 
One day, shortly after XX 35 (1-22). Roberto holds a press conference, Marie apologizes to Rogue, and Sage and Bishop look into Elias Bogan. 
X-TREME X-MEN #36  FB (2-6) 
The same evening as XX 35 (23). It is several days before XX 36. Ororo and Remy return to California and reunite with the rest of the X-Treme team, and Storm informs them they are now XSE  mutant police. She also informs the team shes going solo to infiltrate Voges Tokyo arena. Green trees and warm weather in southern California. 

Friday, June 13 
HULK/WOLVERINE: SIX HOURS #1 
One day. On board a plane to Canada, fugitive Bruce Banner encounters a boy named Kyle who has been poisoned by a snake, and the prospect of turning the plane around for medical help forces the hand of drug dealers Sid and Whitie. Their actions lead to Banners change into the Hulk, who sends the plane plummeting. Banner has a full head of hair and is a fugitive, so this story must occur sometime after H3 54. Green grass and trees and coat weather in Canada. Since Kyle is on his way to a summer camp, it is likely June. 
HULK/WOLVERINE: SIX HOURS #2 
The same day as HW:SH 1. After the plane crash, Banner encounters Logan and they team up to save Kyle. A crime boss sends Shredder after Sid and Whitie, who have taken Kyle and pilot Margie White hostage in an attempt to find the buyer for their drugs. Green grass and trees in Canada. 
HULK/WOLVERINE: SIX HOURS #3 
The same day as HW:SH 2. It is two years after H/W:SH 3-FB. Whitie dies in a vehicle crash. Shredder kills Sid and comes close to killing Margie and Kyle when Logan and Banner arrive on the scene. It is a time of year in which sunset arrives before 6:15 PM, but that conflicts with the summer camp reference in HW:SH 1. Green grass and trees in Canada. 
HULK/WOLVERINE: SIX HOURS #4 
The same day as HW:SH 3. Publication order would place this issue before W/CA 1. Shredder is killed and Logan and Banner save Kyle with a coral snake and a transfusion from the Hulk. 
X-TREME X-MEN #36  FB (7-36) 
One night shortly after XX 36-FB (2-6). Storm meets up with Yukio in Tokyo and they infiltrate Voges mutant gladiator arena, where they meet Masato Koga, who knows their identities. Koga tricks Storm into entering the arena battle between Silkworm and Musclehead, only to become the exalted champ. Full moon. 
X-TREME X-MEN #37  FB (2-15) 
The same night as XX 36-FB (7-36). After tasting victory in the arena, Storm snatches Yukio and flees back to Yukios apartment, where they talk about the state of affairs between humans and mutants. 

Saturday, June 14 
X-TREME X-MEN #37  FB (16-36) 
The day after XX 37-FB (2-15). Strong Guy shows up at Yukios apartment and tries to dissuade Storm from joining the Fellowship of the Arena, in which he has been involved since X-Factor broke up. Storm does not heed his advice and joins the Fellowship, only to face Callisto. 
X-TREME X-MEN #38  FB (2-28) 
The same day as XX 37-FB (16-36). After Storm fights Callisto, it is revealed that Masque runs the show at the Arena and that she has broken Callistos will, just as she intends to do with Storm. 
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA #1  FB 
One day. Given that Xavier and Forge are together here, this story must occur after MYS 6 (16-22). Beast and Forge examine a mutant computer chip in the X-Mens communications systems and Forge takes the chip to the Avengers for further examination, but he is ambushed by the Contingency, which takes the chip. Green grass and trees in New York. 
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA #1 
The same day as W/CA 1-FB. Forge arrives at Avengers Embassy, where he tells his tale to Cap and Warbird. Xavier (BTS) sends Wolverine after the stolen chip and Logan finds the Contingency in the sewers under Manhattan. Cap and Warbird arrive to find Logan shot up. 
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA #2 
The same day as W/CA 1. Cap, Warbird, and a powerless Wolverine battle the Contingency in Manhattans sewers, and Logan is left for dead, his healing power neutralized. 
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA #3 
The same day as W/CA 2. Warbird gets Logan to the SHIELD helicarrier for medical attention while Cap goes after the Contingency, who get away. SHIELD finds a way to restore Logans healing factor and save him from death. 
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA #4 (1-16) 
The same night as W/CA 3. Warbird has her classic costume here, so this story must occur before A3 65. The heroes locate the Contingency making a deal with AIM for the mutant chip. In the ensuing battle, Logan retrieves the chip and guts Rapture. Full moon. 

Sunday, June 15 
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA #4 (17-21) 
The morning after W/CA 4 (1-16). Given that the Xavier is standing and the Institute is intact and operating, this issue must occur before X 142. Logan reports back to Xavier, Forge, and Beast, and someone who Im hoping is Iceman, not Cyclops. Rapture drops in on her incarcerated teammates, noting that her suits abilities are now fused to her nervous system. Cap confronts Sharon Carter about the Contingency program. 
X-TREME X-MEN #38  FB (29-36) 
Probably the day after XX 38-FB (2-28). In the Arena, Storm fights Paradise, disguised as Yukio, but Ororo refuses to kill her. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #8 (6-9) 
One day during Parents Week at Xaviers. Given the presence of the Parents Week sign, up since NM2 8 (1-5), this segment probably occurs before NM2 7 (19-22). A standing Xavier greets parents. Bare trees, green shrubs and green grass at Xaviers. 

Monday, June 16 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #8 (10-24) 
The day after NM2 8 (6-9). It is a few days before NM2 9. Sofia gets into another argument with her visiting father. Julian Keller switches advisors from Northstar to Emma Frost. David decides to stay at Xaviers. Autumn trees (the leaves have apparently risen back onto the trees) and green grass. 
X-TREME X-MEN #39  FB (2-18) 
Probably the night of the day after XX 38-FB (29-36). Storm and Callisto battle four challengers in the GWAs London arena, then Tullamore Voge arranges to buy Storm from Masque. Yukio and Guido talk Koga into staging a rebellion. Full moon. 

Tuesday, June 17 
X-TREME X-MEN #39  FB (23-24p1) 
Probably the day after XX 39-FB (21-18). Storm and Callisto fight challengers in the GWAs Hong Kong arena. 

Wednesday, June 18 
X-TREME X-MEN #39  FB (24p2-24p3) 
Probably the day after XX 39-FB (23-24). Storm and Callisto fight challengers in the GWAs Rio de Janiero arena. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #7 (19-22) 
One day, two weeks after NM2 7 (16-18), and so after NM2 8 (1-5). The Parents Week sign is not up, so this segment probably occurs after NM2 8 (10-24). Joshs parents arrive at Xaviers, but instead of retrieving him, they name the school his guardian and leave without him. Xavier is still standing. Trees are now bare, with the last leaves falling from them, but the grass at Xaviers is still green. 
MYSTIQUE #7 (1-10) 
One night. Mystique and Shortpack steal information from the palace of North Koreas Kim Jong Il. Full moon. 

Thursday, June 19 
MYSTIQUE #7 (11-21) 
The morning after MYS 7 (1-10). At Mystiques Brooklyn safehouse, Xavier tells her that the North Koreans were planning to steal bigpox from Harrison Taylor, a scientist in South Africa, her next destination. On her way out at JFK Airport, Mystique again encounters Shepard, the man she met at the Cuban bar, who offers her another chance to be a double agent; she refuses and the man reports to his boss, the Quiet Man. Xavier is standing in this segment (even though its a telepathic projection, Mystique had to ask if he were real), so this story must occur before X 146 (and thus before X 142). Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
X-TREME X-MEN #39  FB (24p4-25p2) 
Probably the day after XX 39-FB (24). Storm and Callisto fight challengers in the GWAs Riyadh arena. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #9 (1-10) 
One day, a few days after NM2 8 (10-24). It is a school day at Xaviers during what must be the summer semester, and tomorrow is referred to as a school day as well. After stopping Avalanche in Manhattan, a de-powered Rahne Sinclair arrives at Xaviers. Havok and Nightcrawler cameo. Someone wonders where the Avengers are. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #11  FB (20p4) 
The same day as NM2 9 (1-10). Josh appears interested in Rahne. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #9 (11-20) 
One day, a few days after NM2 8 (10-24). Rahne gathers Sofia, Laurie, David, and Josh to investigate a mutant girl named Surge, whose powers are out of control. Green grass, bare trees, and long-sleeve shirts (but no jackets) in Westchester. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #10 (1-9) 
The same night as NM2 9 (11-20). Emma meets with her advisees and lets them pick their own code names. Sofia, Laurie, David, and Josh bring Surge to the school, where shes put under the Beasts care. Dani gives her students a weeks detention for breaking curfew and putting themselves in danger. Full moon. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #11  FB (19p3) 
The same night as NM2 10 (1-9). Dani and Rahne argue. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #10 (10-11) 
The same night as NM2 11-FB (19p3). Josh argues with his classmates and Dani. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #437 
One summah day. The Xavier Institute is not destroyed, so this story must occur before X 142. Tired of being pushed around by Abe Cabot, Jeb Guthrie provokes Cabot into a fight in which Guthrie can let loose with his new powers in self defense. Sheriff Pete shoots Guthrie when he refuses to stand down. Paige is called, and she and Warren head to Cumberland, KY to be with her family. Meanwhile, musician Josh Guthrie performs at a local restaurant where he enchants waitress Julia Cabot. School is out and we see green grass and trees in Kentucky and Westchester. We see the bottom portion of what appears to be a full moon. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #438 
The same night as UX 437. As Josh and Julia rekindle their feelings for each other, the Guthrie/Cabot feud escalates into an armed altercation at the Guthrie farm. Later, as the Cabots plan to kill the Guthries with accomplice Sheriff Pete, the X-Men (Archangel, Husk, Nightcrawler, and Wolverine) arrive at the Guthrie farm. Green grass and trees in Kentucky. Full moon. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #439 
The same night as UX 438. It is eight years after UX 439-FB. Julia Cabot (and presumably Josh Guthrie) is eighteen. Julia and Josh rendezvous as Chester Cabot plans to use some abandoned armor to kill the Guthries. Warren apologizes to Logan for his past animosity. Green grass and trees in Kentucky. Full moon. 
MYSTIQUE #8 
The same night as MYS 7 (11-21). As the Quiet Man and Shepard track her, Mystique arrives in Johannesburg at 10:14 PM SAST. After reconnoitering with Shortpack, she infiltrates Taylors compound, only to discover him dead. She battles the killer, the Host, who infects Mystique with a biological agent and takes off with Taylors bigpox. Green grass and trees in South Africa. 

Friday, June 20 
MYSTIQUE #9 
The early morning after MYS 8 (starting 1:46 AM, Johannesburg time). Mystique staggers back to the hotel and partially recovers while Shortpack tracks the Host with a tracer Mystique put on her. Mystique pursues the Host and considers her beaten when the Host is hit by a car, but Host recovers and makes it back to Mystiques hotel before she does. When Raven arrives, the Host threatens to kill Shortpack. 
MYSTIQUE #10 (1-18) 
The same early morning as MYS 9. Mystique saves Shortpack and defeats the Host. She meets up with Shepard, who reports back to the Quiet Man. Full moon. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #440 
The morning after UX 439. Warren explains the reason for his behavior toward Paige and after he apologizes, they profess their love for each other. The armored Chester Cabot catches Josh with Julia and blasts Josh. A jealous Sheriff Pete threatens Lucinda Guthrie and Kurt takes him down. Paige is nineteen. Green grass and trees in Kentucky. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #441 (1-23p3) 
The same day as UX 440. Believing Josh dead, Julia drowns herself, but Josh heals and despairs over Julias death. Chester Cabot attempts to murder the Guthries; Kurt teleports them to safety but fails to save Lucindas boyfriend. Sheriff Pete kills Cabot and is himself killed in the process. Green grass and trees in Kentucky. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #10 (12-22p1) 
The day after NM2 10 (10-11). Its a school day at Xaviers. Beast gives Surge gloves to regulate her electrical power. Rahne withdraws from Dani and links up with Josh. Cyclops is back at the mansion, lifting weights  he may have just returned to the mansion after being gone since X 139 (1-20). He notes that Rahne is several years younger than Dani and Shan and Josh says Rahne is underage for drinking, only a couple of years older than him, but this cant be right. Green grass and green and bare trees. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #11  FB (19p4) 
The same night as NM2 10 (12-22). Rahne and Josh kiss. Full moon. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #10 (22p2-22p6) 
The same night as NM2 11-FB (19p4). Joshs kiss heals Rahne. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #11  FB (19p5) 
The same night as NM2 10 (22). Rahne slashes Josh. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #10 (23) 
The same night as NM2 11-FB (19p5). Rahne has turned back into her wolf girl form. The bare trees may be topical. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #11 
The same night as NM2 10 (23). Laurie scares off Wolfsbane and Josh lies critically wounded in her arms from injuries inflicted by Rahne. The bare trees may be topical. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #12 (1-18) 
The same night as NM2 11. It is a few days before NM2 12 (19-22). The Beast tries to keep Josh alive while the word goes out for Archangel, who is not available, but is an hour away; he may be on his way back from Kentucky after UX 441 (1-23). Xavier is not here, and he may be contacted off-panel, providing an emergency for him to leave Forge as noted in MYS 10 (19-22). Surge saves Josh by allowing him to heal himself, and Josh turns gold in the process. Dani retrieves Rahne, who manages to control her power. Dani reveals to Josh that shes his legal guardian. Full moon. 
X-TREME X-MEN #36 (1) 
X-TREME X-MEN #37 (1) 
X-TREME X-MEN #38 (1) 
X-TREME X-MEN #39 (1) 
Probably the day after XX 39-FB (24-25). It is several days after XX 36-FB (2-6). A gladiator star, Storm enters the GWAs Las Vegas arena for a contest. 
X-TREME X-MEN #39 (25p3-39) 
The same day as XX 39 (1). With help from Yukio, Guido, and Koga, Storm and Callisto rebel against Masque and defeat her in Las Vegas. Storm and company celebrate their victory over Masque. Storm decides to leave the Arena life, but not before setting the arenas up as safe havens for mutants. 
MYSTIQUE #10 (19-22) 
One night, twelve hours after MYS 10 (1-18). Mystique reports back to her Brooklyn safehouse, where she meets Forge, who notes that Xavier is indisposed right now...Im not sure if youve seen the news, but theres some drama over at the school  this reference is unclear and doesnt necessarily mean that Xavier led Forge to believe hed be at the mansion. Nonetheless, Xavier may have been contacted regarding Rahnes attack on Josh in NM2 11 and news reports may have come in regarding a wolf-girl running around in the woods of Westchester. 

Saturday, June 21: Summer Solstice 
MYSTIQUE #11  FB 
One night. It is a few months after MYS 2. Forge mentions that Xavier isnt at the mansion tonight, as if Xavier would normally be there; this clue places MYS 11-12 before the destruction of the Institute, not after the reconstruction. Forge takes Mystique out for coffee, then they respond to a live news story about the abduction of a mutant boy, Spencer Bronson. They discover that Spencer, a mind controller, is in charge, and he sets Forge against Mystique. 
MYSTIQUE #11 
The same night as MYS 11-FB. Forge takes a swing a Mystique. 
MYSTIQUE #12 (1-18) 
The same night as MYS 11. After battling each other, Forge and Mystique defeat Spencer. The authorities agree to have the boy enrolled at Xaviers, which is an indication that this segment occurs before the destruction of the mansion in X 147-FB (20-21). Green trees in Brooklyn. The waning crescent moon is inconsistent with the full moon of MYS 7. 

Sunday, June 22 
MYSTIQUE #12 (19-22) 
The early morning after MYS 12 (1-18). Back at Mystiques safehouse, Forge forces Mystique to face the fact that she cant stand to see her true reflection. Waning crescent moon. 

Monday, June 23 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #12 (19-22) 
One day, a few days after NM2 12 (1-18). The Institute is still standing, so this segment must occur before X 147-FB (20-21). Surge gets a job at the caf to repay Luna DePaula. 
MYSTIQUE #13 (1-20) 
One night. Since Mystique is on another errand run for Xavier and Shortpack believes Xavier to be reachable by Shepard, this story may occur before the Magneto disaster of X 146-150. Mystique retrieves the stolen severed hand of a dead mutant named the Alchemist. Shepard, who has been in contact with Shortpack, asks Raven to help kill Xavier. We see Carnival in Rio de Janeiro, but it may be the wrong time of year for that celebration; instead we may be seeing the Brazilian national holiday of Festas Juninas. 
NEW X-MEN #142 
One night. The narration notes Emmas murder in X 139 (21-22) as having occurred last month. As this issue leads to Xaviers crippling in X 146, it must occur after MYS 7 (11-21), UX 436, NM2 7, XU21/2, and W/CA 4 (17-21). As this issue leads to the death of Jean Grey in X 150, it must occur after ALIAS 28. Wolverine (sans goatee, and probably wearing the new outfit with yellow stripes under his jacket) happens to find Scott at the Hellfire Club trying to get drunk, probably right after his return to the mansion in NM2 10. He tells Scott the right after he left [actually it was a few days after, as noted in X 139 (21-22)], Emma was shot, and that Scotts the prime suspect. Sabretooth is also at the club, and it appears that hes on his own reconnaissance  he may be here after WX2 12. Logan is at the Hellfire Club to meet with Fantomex to begin a mission to take down the Weapon Plus program, and he tries to get Cyclops to join them. 

Tuesday, June 24 
NEW X-MEN #143 
Probably the early morning after X 142; since Scott is expected to have a hangover, it is likely several hours after X 142, but it is still dark out. Logan, Scott, and Fantomex infiltrate the evolutionary engineering facility, the World. There they encounter AIM agents who have been attacked by Weapon XV. 
NEW X-MEN #144 
The same early morning as X 143. Inside the World, Logan, Scott, and Fantomex encounter Weapon XV, who breaks free and heads for the Weapon Plus space station. Full moon. 
MYSTIQUE #13 (21-23) 
The morning after MYS 13 (1-20). Mystique and Shortpack ride a train in Brazil. Raven notes that she wont be working for Xavier forever. 
NEW X-MEN #145 
The same day as X 144. It is mere days before X 148 (6-22). Logan, Scott, and Fantomex follow Weapon XV to the Weapon Plus space station, where Logan accesses files concerning his identity, then, desperate and disturbed, he blows up the station. 
NEW X-MEN #146 
The same day as X 145. It is days before X 149 and three days before X 150 (1-31). This story may occur after MYS 13 (1-20). Having escaped the satellite in a spacecraft, Scott and Fantomex crash into the Pacific Ocean. Beast and Emma head out to retrieve them, but their aircraft is sabotaged. Phoenix departs for space to retrieve Logan, who she finds alive. Jean and Wolverine discover that the Weapon Plus space program is Asteroid M, which also is rigged to explode. Xavier formally meets Dust, so this issue cant occur long after UX 138 (16-23). Dust attacks and disables Cerebra at the order of Xorn, who cripples Xavier and reveals himself to be Magneto. Xavier states that he still hopes to step down this summer as headmaster of the Institute. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. 
NEW X-MEN #147  FB (20-21) 
The same day as X 146. This flashback must occur after NM2 12 (19-22). After taking Xavier prisoner, Magneto destroys the Xavier Institute. 
X-TREME X-MEN #40 
The same day as X 147-FB (20-21). It is a few weeks (more like seven) after UX 425 (17-23). Marie is now working for Vange. Sage notes that the Xavier Institute is totally off-line and we see the school destroyed; the X-Treme team dont know the reason so Magneto has not yet gone public with his Manhattan conquest. Rogue notes that Paige is nineteen. Sam notes that Paige sounds way serious about being with Warren Worthington. Storm is back in Tokyo. As the rest of the X-Treme team enjoy an evening clambake, Bishop fights Manacle, Rolling Thunder, Cudgel, Bludgeon, Revenant, and a telepath under Bogans control. Green grass and trees in Westchester. Full moon. 
X-TREME X-MEN #41 
The same night as XX 40. There still is no news from New York concerning the fate of the X-Men and the Xavier Institute. The captured Bishop is given Rave and falls under the control of Bogan. The X-Treme team discover Bishops and Sages plot to deal with Bogan, then they plan to fight Bogan. Storm says that things in Tokyo are confused, potentially serious. Green grass and trees in California Full moon. 
X-TREME X-MEN #42 
The same night as XX 41. The X-Treme team, joined by X-Corp reps, go up against Bogan and his minions, including Bishop. Full moon. 
X-TREME X-MEN #43 
The same night as XX 42. Rogue, Sage, Magma, and Shadowcat infiltrate X-Corp headquarters and face Bogan, his minions, and possessed teammates. Full moon. 
X-TREME X-MEN #44 
The same night as XX 43. After trying to go against Bogan alone, Sage realizes that she needs to work with her teammates to drive Bogan away. The mysterious telepath is freed from Bogans control and turns out to be Rachel Summers. 
X-TREME X-MEN #45 (1) 
The same night as XX 44. Kitty cradles Rachel. 

Wednesday, June 25 
X-TREME X-MEN #45 (2-24) 
The day after XX 45 (1). Storm and Callisto arrive in California. The X-Treme team defeat Bogan and destroy the X-Corp building in the process. It is months after Rachel was abducted by Bogan, which occurred after C2 95. 
NEW X-MEN #147  FB (2-3) 
The day after X 147FB (20-21). Magneto tears Manhattan apart. 
NEW X-MEN #147 
The same day as X 147-FB (2-3). Magneto notes that its taken one day to take over Manhattan, a good bit of which he destroys in this issue at great cost of human life. There is no sign of Asgard above Manhattan, and surely Thor would have opposed the carnage wrought by Magneto in this issue if he were around, so this issue must occur after the Reigning storyline in T2; one might argue that Magneto used the disappearance of Asgard as an opportunity to play his final hand. He refers to the time he spent masquerading as Xorn as all those months  indeed, Ive placed this story a little over a year after Xorn was invited to Xaviers in X 01 (30-42). It is not known where New Yorks heroes or the other X-Men are all this time. 
NEW X-MEN #148 (1-5) 
It must be the same day as X 147. Aboard the hurtling Asteroid M, Logan and Jean have 24 hours before the station hits the surface of the sun. 

Thursday, June 26 
NEW X-MEN #148 (6-22) 
The day (24 hours) after X 148 (1-5). It is mere days after X 145, but perhaps at least two days after X 147, since Magneto notes that each day, more and more mutants flock to my cause. No other stories can occur in New York during the time Magneto has converted it to New Genosha. Magneto gloats over his victory, orders Esme to find the remaining X-Men via Cerebra, and orders the mass extermination of all remaining humans in New Genosha tomorrow. Meanwhile, Logan guts Jean to put an end to her pain as Asteroid M burns up at the sun. 

Friday, June 27 
NEW X-MEN #149 
The rainy day after X 148 (6-22). It is days after X 142. As Magneto drives New Yorks humans to their deaths, he accidentally kills Basilisk and loses the support of Angel and Beak, the latter of whom is sent to his death. Beak survives and is taken in by a mutant resistance force that includes Esmes sisters, Dust, Cyclops, and Fantomex. As Magneto gloats before the imprisoned Xavier, Charles is contacted telepathically by Jean. Green trees in New York. 
NEW X-MEN #150 (1-29) 
The same day as X 149. This segment occurs three days after X 146 and days before UX 442. It occurs before WX2 16 and XS 19 (1-5), and probably before MYS 11-FB. Logan and Jean are resurrected by the release of the Phoenix Consciousness and they hie back to earth, pick up Emma and Hank in the Pacific Ocean, and head to Manhattan, where Magneto faces restless followers, mutineering sidekicks, and an attack by Fantomex and Cyclops. In the ensuing melee, Xavier is freed and Esme is killed by Magneto. Magneto sends an electromagnetic pulse through Jeans body. We see green grass and trees and rain in New York and Washington, DC. 
X-TREME X-MEN #46  FB (5p2) 
The same day as X 150 (1-29). Logan decapitates Magneto in this televised video clip. 
NEW X-MEN #150 (30-31) 
The same day as XX 46-FB (5p2). Jean dies in Scotts arms. 
X-TREME X-MEN #46  FB (5p4) 
The same day as X 150 (1-31). Cyclops cries over Jeans dead body in his arms in this televised video clip. 

Saturday, June 28 
X-TREME X-MEN #46  FB (3-4) 
Perhaps the day after X 150 (30-31). Scenes of devastation and death in New York are shown in televised video clips. A destroyed Statue of Liberty is seen. 

Sunday, June 29 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #13 (1-2) 
One day. This segment presumably occurs months after NM2 6 (4-24), but it may only be weeks later. Donald Pierces nephew, FBI agent Justin Pierce, arranges the commutation of his death sentence and a prison transfer from France to the U.S. in return for testimony against Kevin Ford. 

Monday, June 30 
UNCANNY X-MEN #442 
One day, days after X 150 (30-31). This story must occur before X 151 (22). In the wake of Magnetos destruction of New York, Emma and Juggernaut assist with rescue efforts on Liberty Island, probably before XX 46 (1-15). They are assisted by She-Hulk, who must appear here either before A3 65 or after A3 75; it is probably the former, as she is not wearing the costume first seen in A3 65. Other X-Men and the Avengers are involved in the rescues behind the scenes. Meanwhile, Xavier and Logan arrive in Genosha with Nick Fury to bury Magneto. Logan shows his objection to Xaviers eulogy by destroying a monument to Magneto, which incurs the ire of a group of Magneto followers. Lorna reveals to Pietro and Wanda that she is Magnetos daughter and the three arrive in Genosha to attend the burial (although its strange that the latter two arent assisting the Avengers in saving lives). This may be the earliest chronological appearance of the costume first seen on Wanda in A3 65. Green trees in Genosha. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #443 
The same day as UX 442. Lorna refers to the Big Brother Watchers of Asgard hovering above New York; it is presumed that this is a reference to the recent past, not the present, since the Asgardians were not around during Magnetos attack on Manhattan. Amid the ruins of Genosha, Lorna challenges Xaviers belief in fighting war with peace, then she, Logan, Pietro, and Wanda leave Xavier in Genosha with Magnetos corpse. Logan probably appears next in WX2 16. 
X-TREME X-MEN #46 (1-11) 
One day. TV journalists report on the recent destruction of New York. The X-Treme team, joined by residents of Valle Soleada, decide to assist in the recovery efforts. After Sage and Rogue reactivate Gambits powers, Lila teleports everyone to New York; apparently they split up upon arrival, with Sam, Roberto and Amara heading for Xaviers and the rest staying in the city. 
NEW MUTANTS v2 #13 (3-23) 
Probably the same day as XX 46 (1-11). During his prison transfer, Donald Pierce escapes outside New York City. The original New Mutants are reunited at the ruins of the Institute, hang at the Grind Stone, and convene at a temporary shelter set up at the Salem Center headquarters of X-Corp, where, with Justin Pierce, they plan to bait Donald Pierce at Xaviers; the shelter is in good shape, placing this segment before X 155. The plan works, and Donald and the Reavers are defeated. Sam asks Dani to join the X-Men and she tells him shell think about it. Green trees and jacket weather in New York. 

Tuesday, July 1 
NEW X-MEN #151 (20-21) 
One day. Scott stands over Jeans grave. We see bare trees and leaves on the ground, which probably are topical. 
NEW X-MEN #151 (22) ~ NEW X-MEN #154 (22) 
The same day as X 151 (20-21). This segment must occur after Emmas appearance in UX 442. The Xorn/Magneto affair happened this past year. Scott mentions that Professor X has retired  this may be a reference to Xaviers stepping down as headmaster, a decision he announced in X 138 (10-14), but not to Xaviers leaving, which he does not know until X 155. At Jeans grave, Emma Frost tries to convince Scott to reopen Xaviers school. The bare trees and autumn leaves on the ground are probably topical, and who knows why Emmas wearing a fur coat and hat. 
NEW X-MEN #154 (23) 
The same day as X 154 (22). Thanks to the intercession of the deceased Jean Grey, seeking to avoid a bleak future (portrayed in X 151-154), Scott accepts Emma as his lover. We see blowing autumn leaves, which probably are topical. 
NEW X-MEN #155 
The same day as X 154 (23). Scott asks Hank if Xavier is planning on rebuilding the school, which is seen in ruins after its destruction in X 147-FB (20-21). Hank answers that hes left that up to us, Scott. Hes gone to Genosha with Logan...and Im not sure hes ever coming back. This dialog suggests that Xaviers departure was very recent, and Scott and Emma are probably here right after the completion of the rescue effort referenced in UX 442; Hank may have been stationed at the Institute. Emma wants to restart the school, but Scott and Hank arent enthusiastic about the idea; there are no construction vehicles or any sign of rebuilding at the Institute. Emma and the Cuckoos encounter mutant haters torching the temporary shelter for school survivors in Salem Center  last seen in NM2 13 (3-23)  while Scott and Hank discover that Cassandra Nova was freed from her force field prison when the school was destroyed. The falling autumn leaves are probably topical. 
NEW X-MEN #156 (1-22p3) 
The same day as X 155. It is several days before X 156 (22-24). Hank and Scott argue, then respond to Emmas summons for help against the attack on the shelter, where a mutant boy named Germaine is killed. The experience convinces Scott to join Emma in rebuilding the Institute. Since we see the Institute under reconstruction in XX 46 (12-23), this segment must occur before then. Green trees in Westchester. 

Wednesday, July 2 
X-TREME X-MEN #46 (12-23) 
One day, shortly after NM2 13 (3-23). The X-Treme team assist with recovery, not rescue, efforts (and thus probably post-UX 442) in New York City, where we see Cyclops, Cap, and Thor (in classic costume and thus after the Reigning); these efforts may have been going on for days since the arrival of the X-Treme team after XX 46 (1-11). Storm flies from the city to Xaviers, where we see some reconstruction already occurring; this places this segment after X 156 (1-22). After encountering Archangel there, Storm heads to Harrys Hideaway, where she meets up with the original New Mutants. The X-Treme team and the New Mutants gather for dinner in the complex beneath the destroyed mansion; this is another clue that this segment occurs after X 156 (1-22), as the Cassandra Nova situation must have occurred before now  the basement levels may now be considered a safe place and the mutants displaced by the torching of the Salem Center X-Corps building may now be residing here. Dani turns down Sams offer to be an X-Man and Storm rallies the X-Treme team to join her as XSE marshals. Rachel renames herself Marvel Girl. Green grass and trees in New York. 

Saturday, July 5 
WEAPON X v2 #16 
One day, long enough after WX 15 for the doctors at Weapon X to give Chamber a new face through surgery (as noted in WX2 19). It is several years after WX 16-FB. This story must occur after X 150 (1-31), as monitors in the Weapon X compound show a recorded video of Weapon XVs attack on Magneto. Brent Jackson shows Jono around the Weapon X compound and offers him a trial assignment, to kill John Sublime. Logan, probably here after UX 443, is seen doing surveillance on Jono. Green trees. 
WEAPON X v2 #17 
The same day as WX2 16. Chamber meets Logan in a movie theater (in a place where its raining) and discuss Jonos assignment to infiltrate Weapon X for the X-Men. Hours later, Jono agrees to kill Sublime, and that evening, he, Jackson, Sauron, and Wild Child attack Sublimes headquarters, where it appears to be a normal business day. Sublime and his U-Men root out the skulking Jono. 
WEAPON X v2 #18 
The same night as WX2 17. It is several weeks after WX2 18-FB. Jackson, Sauron, and Wild Child save Chamber, who then finds and kills John Sublime and reports back to Wolverine. 

Sunday, July 6 
NEW X-MEN #156 (22p4-24) 
One day, several days after X 156 (1-22). Scott apologizes to Jean at her grave. We see green and bare trees and fallen autumn leaves at Xaviers, which is under reconstruction and is clearly not finished, despite Scotts statement that weve rebuilt the school. Members of the Uncanny team appear here. 

That were heading further into summer is confirmed by the preview pages of UX 444: 
UNCANNY X-MEN #444 
One day, after XX 46 (12-23). On a sunny summer afternoon, the X-Men play baseball and tend to routine business and recreation at Xaviers, where we see green grass and trees. The new mansion is still under construction, although much of it appears completed. 

Ive taken notes on XS 19-22, WX2 19-21, and C&DP 1, for which I have assigned tentative dates after this point, but its too early to nail these down. (WX2 22 is, in essence, a flashback issue that I have placed before WX2 19 on the calendar, above.)
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Apr 2004 08:39 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Problem: 

You have the flashback in WX2 #18, where the X-men decide to plant a mole in Weapon X, occuring way way too early. In that flashback, Logan references his and Cyclops' "recent attack on Weapon Plus" -- so this has to come AFTER X #142-145, and by extension after X #150. 

Xavier is not in a wheelchair, but he IS sitting -- that may be good enough. However, he's PRESENT -- and if the ending of UX #443 is to be believed, he doesn't come back to the mansion between then and EXCAL3 #1. 

(However, preview pages for EXCAL3 #1 show him in a big techno chair with a bunch of supplies -- so maybe he DOES come back.) 

Either way, this has to occur after X #150 ... however, the beginning of WX2 #15 has to occur *before* the mansion is destroyed (since we see it standing) -- given that Paige and Angel are extremely lovey-dovey in that scene, I'd place this after their relationship problems were solved in UX #441. That keeps it as close as possible to the rest of the storyline, too. 

By the way, if it turns out that Xavier never comes back, then the WX2 flashback must occur before X #155 -- meaning, the mansion is still trashed at the time. So where are they meeting? Well, it looks like someone's den or rec room -- perhaps they're in the cabin near Xavier's where Angel had her babies -- a cabin that's been made over into a cute little house, as seen in preview pages for Exiles #46. Or maybe they're in the meeting room of the Salem Center X-Corp office that we see in X #155-156. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Apr 2004 09:00 pm    
By Dhall

Paul, 
I've read the first segment of your post. 
A couple of things stood out to me. 

Your notes for X-Treme X-Men 31 and 32-FB's are wrong. 
Marie is a human, not a mutant. 
The FB in X-treme #31 is written up correctly, but it is listed as "June 6" 

Quote: 

>>>
X-TREME X-MEN #31 (1-2) 
One night. In Los Angeles, Cutter, Porous, Dervish and company cause a car accident in which a girl named Marie is seriously injured. Mention is made of the state championship for cheerleading.  
<<<


Compare that to this segment: 
Quote: 

>>>
Tuesday, March 11 
X-TREME X-MEN #32  FB (20p2-20p3) 
One day. Marie Dancanto accidentally kills her brother when her mutant power manifests itself in the family car. Short sleeves and shorts in southern California. 
<<<



This is a misreading. Marie is the same character as Marie D'ancanto. The Fb in #31 and #32 are of the same event. Please re-read them both, and you will see what I mean. 

Also, in another segment regarding Marie, you say that her father sells the house, it is actually her uncle. Her father died in the car accident. 

You have that listed for: 
Wednesday, April 2 
X-TREME X-MEN #32  FB (22-23) 

Then you have Marie's attack on the nightclub listed for Saturday, June 7. 
I'm not disputing your dates, just reposting them, for discussion purposes. 


The second thing, and I can see why this could cause problems, but 
in the Fb in Weapon X 18, Logan says "The files I accessed at the Plus compound shut down when I mentioned Neverland." This strongly puts this issue, and (#15-18) after the Weapon Plus storyline. 

If that is true, this would have to be at the rebuilt mansion (or not at the mansion at all), sometime ahead of the current New X-Men issues. Is there any other time that Logan accessed the Weapon Plus files except during, New X-Men #145 ? 
If not, then Weapon X 15-18 must occur after that storyline. 

Dave H 

oh, and this has snuck into the X-Treme X-Men listing for Sunday March 23. 

Quote: 

>>>
and the Piako Loio himself. Selvi stops him from disturbing the Piako Loio. 
One night, days after HT 10 (1-19). Still in the Balkans, Johnny and Jian pay their respects to the deceased Hugo. 
<<<

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Posted: 30 Apr 2004 09:16 pm    Post subject: The problem with WX 18-FB
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

WX2 18-FB occurs at "the Xavier Institute for Higher Learning." This suggests that it's either at the mansion before it's destroyed, or it's in the rebuilt mansion, or it's in the complex beneath the destroyed mansion (after safety and security were assured, following X 156; and we don't see any exterior windows in the meeting room in WX2 18-FB that would discount this possibility). It's unlikely an off-site location would be labeled in the narrative as the Institute. 

Jeph, as you rightly point out, the reference to the events of X 142-146 in that flashback eliminate the first possibility. So it's all going to be up to Xavier's comings and goings in Reload to give us a clue. Another clue is going to come from the upcoming introduction of new costumes; the X-Men wear their old threads in WX2 18-FB. Darn; I wish we could have tied up all the loose ends prior to Reload... 

Anyway, this is a manageable adjustment. We know that WX2 16 on occur after X 150 anyway, so it's just a matter of moving things down a bit. Thanks, Jeph.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Apr 2004 09:27 pm    Post subject: Weapon X
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Oh, and in WX2 15, we see only one corner of "the Xavier Institute for Higher Learning." We don't get a big enough view to conclude that it's the old mansion (thankfully), nor do we see if reconstruction is completed or still in progress. In this corner of the building is "Chamber's room," which has an exterior window, but we don't know if rooms were being occupied as construction was proceeding; it's quite possible if all the students had to be accommodated (expecially following the destruction of the Salem Center X-Corp building) and the subterranean levels were cramped.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Apr 2004 09:30 pm    
By Dhall

looks like Jeph beat me to the Weapon Plus..... 

Paul, the figure in Wolverine/CA 4, that you hope is Iceman, not Cyclops, is wearing Cyke's visor. Is it possible to move this series up to before "Murder at the Mansion" to minimize the number of times that Scott stops by the mansion during this period? 

Dave H

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Posted: 30 Apr 2004 10:22 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks to Dhall for commenting on those Marie D'ancanto entries. I've made the necessary corrections, as follows: 

Friday, May 23 
X-TREME X-MEN #32  FB (20p2-20p3) 
One night. Marie Dancanto rides in a car with her family. Short sleeves and shorts in southern California. 
X-TREME X-MEN #31 (1-2) 
The same night as XX 32-FB (20). In Los Angeles, Cutter, Porous, Dervish and company cause a car accident in which a girl Marie Dancanto is seriously injured and her family killed. Mention is made of the state championship for cheerleading. 

Saturday, May 24 
X-TREME X-MEN #31 (3-4) 
Probably the day after XX 31 (1-2). A Genoshan survivor slays a group of black marketeers in east Africa, and Marie Dancanto recovers in a Los Angeles hospital. 

Wednesday, June 4 
X-TREME X-MEN #32  FB (22-23) 
One day, long enough after XX 32-FB (20) for Marie to be released from the hospital and have a series of nightmares probably spanning several days. An X-Corp representative gets Marie Dancantos uncle to sign over their house and reports back to Roberto da Costa. Green grass and trees in southern California. 

Saturday, June 7 
X-TREME X-MEN #31 (5-22) 
One day. Val Cooper gives a presentation on the mutant threat at the presidential ranch in Texas, where Storm and Remy are undercover and we see green grass and trees and a barbecue. On assignment for the L.A. Division of X-Corp, Bishop and Sage deal with a dangerous mutant, then the duo check in on Rogue and the new life shes adopted in L.A., where we see green grass and trees as well. That night, they go to a club and meet up with Sam, Lila Cheney, and an anti-mutant terrorist with a bomb. 
X-TREME X-MEN #32 (1-17) 
The same night as XX 31 (3-22). This segment is referred to as having occurred the other night in XX 33 (5-13). Sam removes the terrorist from the club, then takes off with Lila. Rogue apprehends the terrorist, Marie Dancanto. Storm and Remy blow their cover at the presidential ranch. Green grass and trees in L.A and Texas. Full moon. 
X-TREME X-MEN #33 (14-16) 
The same night as XX 32 (1-17). At the presidential compound, Storm outlines her plan for diffusing the growing rift between human and mutant. As it picks up right from the scene in Texas in XX 32, this scene must occur out of sequence from the rest of this issue because more time passes in the Marie Dancanto storyline. From the conversation, it appears obvious that this segment occurs before X 142, the storyline that leads to Magnetos victory. Green trees and warm weather in Texas. Full moon. 

How does this look? 


Quote: 
>>>
Paul, the figure in Wolverine/CA 4, that you hope is Iceman, not Cyclops, is wearing Cyke's visor. Is it possible to move this series up to before "Murder at the Mansion" to minimize the number of times that Scott stops by the mansion during this period?  
<<<


Aw, c'mon...can't those be Bobby's funky shades? The problem with moving this series back is the fact that both Forge and Xavier are in it together, and Mystique #1 leads one to believe that the two men hadn't seen one another for some time. Thus, I'd like to place W/CA after MYS 6. To keep this chronological relationship, we'd need to shove MYS 1-6 to an earlier spot, which in turn shoves UX up to 434 back. Ugh.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 May 2004 10:41 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Well, we do already have Cyclops at the mansion in NM2 #10 ... why not have his appearance in W/CA #4 occur that same day? 

Alternately, why not have the W/CA series occur before UX #425-426, the last time Xavier saw Forge prior to "Mystique"? 

(It was commissioned and drawn back then, after all...) 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 May 2004 01:59 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Worth remembering that we already have evidence of Xavier making at least one trip back to the USA after arriving in Genosha - he turns up in X-STATIX #19, in a wheelchair. 

So, however much any trips may be played down in EXCALIBUR, he clearly comes back at some point. Given that he headed off to Genosha to bury Magneto while rescue efforts were continuing in New York, there's no time for the X-STATIX appearance to sensibly take place before he goes - he's hardly going to visit some scientists and have a conversation about a vending machine in those circumstances.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 May 2004 05:46 pm    Post subject: Cap and Wolvie
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Worth remembering that we already have evidence of Xavier making at least one trip back to the USA after arriving in Genosha - he turns up in X-STATIX #19, in a wheelchair.  
<<<


True, but I'd prefer to minimize these appearances, at least until such time as Xavier's comings and goings post-X 150 are established as more frequent than limited clues currently suggest. Remember, too, that placement will be dictated by Warbird's classic costume and status as an active Avenger in W/CA. I don't want W/CA to have to force A3 65, etc. too far ahead. (In fact, my current hypothesis is that the Red Zone storyline in Avengers follows fairly closely on the heels of Magneto's destruction of New York, with the Red Skull taking full advantage of the recent shock to unleash his own mayhem.) 


Quote: 
>>>
Alternately, why not have the W/CA series occur before UX #425-426, the last time Xavier saw Forge prior to "Mystique"?  
<<<


Hmmm. I LIKE that idea! Dare we disregard publication order so wantonly?  

Given that it's been quite a while since Xavier and Forge saw each other before MYS 1 (Alex's and Lorna's crowded wedding excepted), and given the warm weather, green vegetation, and full moon in W/CA, I'm tempted to place this story in August of the previous year, between X 127 and 128. Logan has no goatee and sports the black leather jacket and slacks in W/CA; no tiger stripe costume. I don't think there's any reference in W/CA to anyone knowing Cap's secret ID either, so Cap could go here sometime after A3 62 and before CA4 1. 

I'm very tempted...someone tell me why this won't work...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 May 2004 10:00 pm
By Dhall

Paul, 
I notice that you have listed Amazing Spider-Man 500, but Not 498 and 499, which Cyclops is also in. 

Dave H

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Posted: 03 May 2004 06:54 am    Post subject: ASM2 57-58
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote:
>>>
I notice that you have listed Amazing Spider-Man 500, but Not 498 and 499, which Cyclops is also in.  
<<<


Oops. Insert these entries just before ASM 500... 

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN v2 #57 (8-23) 
The rainy early morning after ASM2 57 (1-7). Spider-Man joins the Fantastic Four (Reeds and Sues costumes are mismatched color-wise, but they both conform to the design introduced in FF3 40), Iron Man (in an armor not seen elsewhere), and Thor (in classic costume, probably after the Reigning, given that he appears in PPSM2 53 during the Asgard-over-Manhattan storyline) in a battle with the Mindless Ones in Manhattan. Dr. Strange shows up too late to prevent the return of Dormammu. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN v2 #58 (1-10) 
The same early morning as ASM2 57. As the heroes battle the Mindless Ones, Strange attempts to destroy Dormammu. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #503  FB (1-2p2) 
The same early morning as ASM2 58 (1-10). A woman gets caught in the melee. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN v2 #58 (11) 
The same early morning as ASM 503-FB (1-2). Spidey finds himself in the middle of the Strange-Dormammu battle and an explosion ensues. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #503  FB (2p4-3) 
The same early morning as ASM2 58 (11). Morwen takes over the womans body. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN v2 #58 (12-22) 
The same early morning as ASM 503-FB (2-4). Strange and Spidey end up in a plane outside of time and space and Spidey witnesses scenes from the past and future. 
 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 May 2004 04:29 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Paul: 

Why don't we just place the W/CA series just prior to UX #425? 

Yes, I'm willing to disregard publication order on this one, but my general rule of thumb is -- push things like this back JUST as far as they need to go, chronologically -- and no farther. So, since Forge's presence indicates it occurs before UX #425 -- I'd place it JUST before UX #425. 

Can it go between #424-425? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 03 May 2004 09:38 pm    Post subject: Placement of W/CA
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Why don't we just place the W/CA series just prior to UX #425? 
Yes, I'm willing to disregard publication order on this one, but my general rule of thumb is -- push things like this back JUST as far as they need to go, chronologically -- and no farther. So, since Forge's presence indicates it occurs before UX #425 -- I'd place it JUST before UX #425. Can it go between #424-425?  
<<<


First, we'd need to place W/CA before UX 423, the issue in which Logan gets his tiger-stripe outfit. Remember that in W/CA he's wearing the older black leather jacket and slacks. 

Second, I think this is an instance in which an understanding of the passage of Marvel time on a calendar can help with placement. We're disregarding the publication order consideration anyway, so my philosophy is to use other clues in the stories themselves to determine placement -- to wit, a long time has passed between W/CA and MYS 1. Are there clues in the stories to disprove the placement I suggest, between X 127 and 128 -- plot and character references, etc., etc.? For instance, I tried finding an instance in W/CA in which Cap was called "Steve," but it's not there (even though Cap calls Warbird "Carol," Warbird only refers to Cap as "Cap"), so W/CA doesn't have to occur after CA4 1. In fact, the depiction of Cap's costume -- more "classic" than the chainmail-prominent current look -- suggests placement before CA4 1; but granted, Cap's look in "current" stories may be more artistic license than actual costume change. 

As I've stated, I'm not a stickler for maintaining an "order" dictated by relative publication date, or of maintaining as little disruption to that order as "possible," not when little clues suggest that disruption may be warranted. And if there's nothing to disprove the placement of W/CA further back, is there really any harm in it? Do the chronologies of Xavier, Forge, Beast, and Cyclops really look strange if we drop W/CA between X 127 and 128?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 May 2004 09:46 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Are there clues in the story that DISPROVE your placement idea? No. But are there clues that SUPPORT it...? 

No. 

Quote: 
>>>
a long time has passed between W/CA and MYS 1. 
<<<

Actually, all we know is that "a long time" has passed between the last time Forge saw Xavier, and MYS #1. That last time is UX #425. 

So, as long as W/CA comes before UX #425, the "long time" reference has no bearing on it. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 May 2004 07:19 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Actually, all we know is that "a long time" has passed between the last time Forge saw Xavier, and MYS #1. That last time is UX #425. 

So, as long as W/CA comes before UX #425, the "long time" reference has no bearing on it.  
<<<


Not necessarily. There's no evidence in UX 425 that Xavier and Forge actually had a chance to get together, so from their perspective their last meeting may have been in W/CA. 

Regardless, I went back and re-read the dialog between Xavier and Forge in MYS 1 (early June), with the assumption that they would have last worked together in W/CA a month and a half before, in April (before UX 423), and that they briefly met at the wedding in May (UX 425). And you know what? There's really nothing to suggest that this scenario wouldn't have been possible. :smile:

So how about this for a new placement? 

Tuesday, April 22 
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA #1  FB 
One day. Beast and Forge examine a mutant computer chip in the X-Mens communications systems and Forge takes the chip to the Avengers for further examination, but he is ambushed by the Contingency, which takes the chip. Green grass and trees in New York. 
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA #1 
The same day as W/CA 1-FB. Forge arrives at Avengers Embassy, where he tells his tale to Cap and Warbird. Xavier (BTS) sends Wolverine after the stolen chip and Logan finds the Contingency in the sewers under Manhattan. Cap and Warbird arrive to find Logan shot up. 
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA #2 
The same day as W/CA 1. Cap, Warbird, and a powerless Wolverine battle the Contingency in Manhattans sewers, and Logan is left for dead, his healing power neutralized. 
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA #3 
The same day as W/CA 2. Warbird gets Logan to the SHIELD helicarrier for medical attention while Cap goes after the Contingency, who get away. SHIELD finds a way to restore Logans healing factor and save him from death. 
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA #4 (1-16) 
The same night as W/CA 3. Warbird has her classic costume here, so this story must occur before A3 65. The heroes locate the Contingency making a deal with AIM for the mutant chip. In the ensuing battle, Logan retrieves the chip and guts Rapture. Full moon. 

Wednesday, April 23 
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA #4 (17-21) 
The morning after W/CA 4 (1-16). Given that the Xavier is standing and the Institute is intact and operating, this issue must occur before X 142, and Logan does not have his tiger-stripe outfit, so this segment may occur before UX 423. Logan reports back to Xavier, Forge, and Beast, and someone who Im hoping is Iceman, not Cyclops. Rapture drops in on her incarcerated teammates, noting that her suits abilities are now fused to her nervous system. Cap confronts Sharon Carter about the Contingency program. 

This would place Cap and Warbird on this mission at the time Falcon and Gyrich were being spotlighted in A3 64. 

Let me know if there's something else that messes up this placement. Sometimes it takes reading, re-reading, and more re-reading, and trying to imagine things from the characters' perspectives to come to grips with placement. Thanks for the help, Jeph.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 10

Posted: 04 May 2004 11:15 pm    Post subject: Captain Universe
By SeanCurtin

It seems to me that the current MCP listing for Captain Universe is not really appropriate. Captain Universe seems to be more of an entity than a concept--it should certainly have its own chronology. (The entry currently given should be moved to COFFIN, CAPTAIN STEVE.) Not having much of a Micronauts collection, I've listed what I can for the character's appearances; there's at least one additional appearance (in Cosmic Powers Unlimited) that seems to fall into the Gap. 

CAPTAIN UNIVERSE 
Note: see also COFFIN, CAPTAIN STEVE 
MICRO 8 
M/SPOT 9 
M/SPOT 10 
M/SPOT 11 
MICRO 35 
H@ 10 
COC 1 
COC 2-BTS 
COC 3-BTS 
M/FAN 25 
WOSM@ 5/2 
PPTSS 148 
WOSM 59 
ASM 327 
PPTSS 159 
WOSM 60 
ASM 328 
PPTSS 160 
WOSM 61 
Q 7 
ASM 329 
WOSM@ 6/4 
WI2 31 (analyzed over on the other folder) 

-Sean

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Thread 11

Posted: 06 May 2004 09:46 pm    Post subject: Avengers/ Alpha Flight teamup
By captamr

The Avengers and Alpha Flight team up to attack Atlantis and rescue Marrina of Alpha from Attuma. This occurs in Avengers #272 and Alpha Flight # 39 and 40 with some interesting crossover events. The Avengers begin in #272 on their journey to Atlantis as Alpha Flight begins their journey in #39. The teams first meet in #39 crossing over back into #272 concluding their battle. This leads to some conflicting chronologies: 

The Avengers listings begin in #272, then #39, back to #272 as should be. Hercules appears with the Avengers and never in AF 39 until the two teams meet. Attuma shares Marrina timeline and should appear first in AF 39, pg.7, pn. 1. 

The biggest conflict is for the Submariner who has an additional FB for AF 40, which appears before the final scenes of A 272. The only new scene in AF 40 in FB form would be pg. 3, pn.3. I would suggest that this is not a flashback, but simply the retelling of events by Vindicator, as she understood them to be. If this were a FB, it would require the AF 40  FB listing in each of the other 4 Avengers listings as well as several of the Alphans who also appear in the disputed scene. The scene is significant since it is here that the Submariner resigns from the Avengers. The event occurs in much greater detail at the end of A 272 but only to Captain Marvel with the Submariner requesting that she tell the Wasp and the rest of the Avengers. I believe that these scenes are more important and credible making the FB moot and simplifying the Submariners listings in this area. 


HERCULES 

**AF 39 needs to be omitted 
A 272 
AF 39 
A 272 


ATTUMA 

AF 38 
**AF 39 
A 272 
AF 39 
A 272 

SUBMARINER 

A 272 
AF 39 
A 272 
**AF 40  FB needs to be omitted 
** A 272 needs to be omitted if previous entry omitted 
AF 40
_________________
Charlie

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Posted: 06 May 2004 09:57 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I'm confused. What exactly is wrong with the flashback in AF 40? Why can't it be incorporated as shown? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 May 2004 10:31 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

If it helps, here are my old notes on the sequence of events in these two issues. (I haven't gone back and checked the issues in response to this post.) I never noted anything new added from a flashback in AF 40, but then I may have overlooked it. Where exactly would that added scene, if genuine, go? 

ALPHA FLIGHT #39 (page 1-page 6, panel 1) 
AVENGERS #272 (pages 1-4) 
ALPHA FLIGHT #39 (page 6, panel 2-page 15, panel 2) 
AVENGERS #272 (page 5, panel 1-page 9, panel 1) 
ALPHA FLIGHT #39 (page 15, panel 3-page 16, panel 1) 
AVENGERS #272 (page 9, panel 2) 
ALPHA FLIGHT #39 (page 16, panel 2-page 17, panel 3) 
AVENGERS #272 (page 9, panels 3-5) 
ALPHA FLIGHT #39 (page 17, panel 4-page 18, panel 3) 
AVENGERS #272 (page 10, panel 1-page 12, panel 4) 
ALPHA FLIGHT #39 (page 19) 
AVENGERS #272 (page 12, panel 5-page 14, panel 1) 
ALPHA FLIGHT #39 (page 20, panel 1-page 21, panel 2) 
AVENGERS #272 (page 14, panels 2-4) 
ALPHA FLIGHT #39 (page 21, panel 3) 
AVENGERS #272 (page 14, panel 5-page 15, panel 1) ~ ALPHA FLIGHT #39 (page 22) 
AVENGERS #272 (page 15, panel 2-page 22, panel 6)
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 May 2004 09:43 am 
By captamr

Quote: 
>>>
ALPHA FLIGHT #39 (page 1-page 6, panel 1) 
AVENGERS #272 (pages 1-4) 
ALPHA FLIGHT #39 (page 6, panel 2-page 15, panel 2) 
<<<




I have a slight discrepancy with the beginning sequence. I dont see the need to interject the Avengers events here since this causes both Marrina and Attuma to have their first appearances of the series in A 272. This is currently correct for Attuma and incorrect for Marrina. AF 39 pg. 7, pn. 1 is my evidence for the correction on Attuma. Either way, Attuma and Marrina must have identical listings in these early scenes. I would suggest eliminating the first A272 (pages 1-4) interjection and correcting Attumas listing as in my previous post. 


I agree totally with the rest of Pauls scenario of events and that brings us to the flashback in AF 40. Page 3, pn. 1  3 are the only candidates for FBs and clearly the first two are events previously witnessed in the series. Pn. 3 shows the Submariner renouncing his membership in the Avengers before both teams. This didnt happen in respective previous issues. At the end of A 272, pg. 22, pn. 4, the Submariner tells only Captain Marvel of his intention to take a leave of absence and he wants her to tell the Wasp. The dialogue clearly indicates that this is the moment that he decides his course of action to pursue Marrina, not before both teams as illustrated in the one panel FB. The panel is easily explained as Vindicators assessment of the events that happened since it is her thoughts that provide the FB in AF 40. To my view the AF 40-FB only occurs in the Submariners listing which is what brought me to the problem in the first place. 


One could argue that (not what Im in favor of!) the FB is valid and did occur and that the Submariner was just reiterating to Capt. Marvel what hed already told the rest of the teams. This would place the FB in A 272 right before the Submariners final appearances there and as currently shown, however, this necessitates the FB listing in each of the Avengers and Alpha Flight members right after their A 272 final entries.
_________________
Charlie

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Posted: 07 May 2004 07:51 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

 have to agree that the flashback scene in AF 40 (3p3) cannot have occurred as depicted. It just doesn't fit the sequence of events as they unfolded in A 272, and trying to force fit it in somehow would disturb the flow of the story. We should chalk it up to a false imagination of events by Vindicator.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 12

Posted: 06 May 2004 04:00 pm    Post subject: FF #384 & FFU #5 problem
By RLG

In response to a recent posting asking for a resolution on the obvious chronology mix-up with FF #384 and FFU #5, here are a couple of theories. 

First, a quick recap: 
FFU #5: 
- Scott Lang (Ant-Man II) has been with the team for at least a few days. 
- Scott's secret identity is known to Ben, Sue, and Johnny (Reed is believed dead at this time) 
- A mutated Sharon Ventura (Ms.Marvel II) is in a stasis chamber at FF Plaza 
- Klaw frees Sharon and the two join the Wizard and the Red Ghost in the new Frightful Four 
- The FF (including Ant-Man II) battle the Frightful Four and ultimately win 
- As his teammates flee, the Wizard uses a paralysing beam and hypnosis on the FF to effect his escape. The end effect of the this is that the FF lose their memories to just before the bettle began. 
- A confused team make their way back to FF Plaza, as Ben stating he is wanting to check up on Sharon (he still believes is in the stasis chamber) 


FF #384 
- begins with Ben, Sue and Johnny finding that Sharon has disappeared from the stasis chamber. 
- Scott Lang arrives for his interview with Sue for the new technician job (PROBLEM!) 
- Sue introduces Scott to Ben and Johnny (PROBLEM!) 
- During the story, Scott reveals that he is Ant-Man II to Ben, Johnny, and Lyja (PROBLEM!) 


THEORY #1 
Scott Lang has in fact been with the FF for a few days prior to FFU #5. However, an unpredictible effect of the Wizard's hypnosis, leads the team to forget the last few days. When Ben, Sue, and Johnny return to FF Plaza and discover that Sharon is missing (beginning of FF #384), they obviously have forgotten that they recently fought her as one of the Frightful Four. 
The Wizard's hypnosis allows Scott to forget he is already a FFer, but he DOES remember that he has a meeting with Sue. Sue, also has a similar memory loss, because she DOES remember her appointment with Scott. 


THEORY #2 
The events in FF #384 are told out of chronological order. In the proper order: 

FF #384 (page 3, panel 4 - end): Sue is notified by the FF's receptionist that Scott Lang has arrived. During the issue, Scott gets the job with the FF and reveals his secret identity. 

FFU #5 (told as is) 

FF #384 (pg1 - pg3, panel 3): FF return from their Frightful Four battle to find that Sharon is gone (Basically, treating these first few pages as a misplaced epilogue) 

Both theories have plusses and minuses, so if anyone has another idea I'd like to hear it. 

- RLG

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Posted: 06 May 2004 06:54 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

RLG, I'm partial to your second explanation. It's just more straightforward and doesn't involve plot theories that we can neither confirm nor deny. Unless there's something sacred about page order dictating chronological order in such an obvious case of continuity blunder, I vote for placing the end of FF 384 before the beginning and inserting FFU 5 between the end and the beginning of FF 384. Objections, anyone?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 May 2004 09:17 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I tend to agree. There's another example of this in H2 209, where page 4, featuring Glenn and Betty Talbot, actually takes place between pages 6 and 7. 


watching: whose line is it anyway

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Posted: 08 May 2004 11:26 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

I agree with the out-of-sequence approach because, simply, that's what it is. There's no reason to think that Marvel, or any of the creators, intended a convoluted repetition of scenes - it's simply an error where the thrust of events are clear but the sequence is inconsistent. If the pages can sensibly be divorced from their context and re-ordered, it makes more sense to do it that way and just treat them as an unlabelled flashback.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 13

Posted: 08 May 2004 05:48 pm    Post subject: Wolsbane in ca 408
By Dhall

For some reason, Wolfsbane's listing is missing CA 408. She's there on Page 7, so this should be added to her listing. 

Wolfsbane 
XF 77 
XF 78 
AF 107 
CA 406-FB 
CA 402-BTS 
CA 403-BTS 
CA 404-BTS 
CA 405-BTS 
CA 406 
CA 407 
*CA 408 
XF@ 7 
XF@ 7/2

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Posted: 09 May 2004 05:38 pm    Post subject: Arthur and Lady of the Lake in XX Crossing
By Enda80

Is Excalibur: XX Crossing sort of a gap book? It has a scene with King Arthur and the Lady of the Lake just after Arthur's last battle in Camelot times with Mordred. 

LADY OF THE LAKE 
*XCAL: XX Crossing 
XCAL 37 
XCAL 38 
HFH 2 
HFH 8 

PENDRAGON, ARTHUR 

JIM 96-FB 
A@ 20/2-FB 
IM 150 
CB 34-FB 
CB 35-FB 
*XCAL: XX Crossing

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 05:51 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

John, would you mind sticking to one name, please? 

As far as I can tell, XX Crossing appears in the listings of the five original X-Men (plus Prof. X) and nowhere else. Perhaps it just hasn't been fully analyzed yet. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 15

Posted: 09 May 2004 06:16 pm    Post subject: Random question about Captain America #454...
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Can anyone tell me what the indicia read in the final issue of Captain America vol. 1? 

Was the book listed in the indicia as "Captain America" or "Steve Rogers: Captain America"? 

Thanks... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 07:11 pm    
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

Indicia... 

CAPTAIN AMERICA Vol 1, No. 454

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 08:14 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Sweet, thanks. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 16

Posted: 09 May 2004 08:42 pm    Post subject: Shadow King not in x60 and x 61
By Dhall

The Shadow King is NOT in X 60 or in X 61. 
The "Shadow King" that appears on the last page of X 60 is an illusion. 
cast by the girl Karima. 

Dave H

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Thread 17

Posted: 03 Mar 2004 01:49 am    Post subject: Placement of ASM@ 3 in The Hulk's Chronology
By Starman

The placement of ASM@ 3 in the Hulk's chronology doesn't really make sense to me. In the MCP it's placed between TTA 88/2 and TTA 89/2, but in the end of TTA 88/2 Banner lies exhausted on a mountain, and in the beginning of TTA 89/2 he still lies exhausted on the mountain and falls asleep before The Stranger arrives and awakes him. 

A more suitable placement of ASM@ 3 in the Hulk's chronology would probably be somewhere in between TTA 84/2 and TTA 85/2 as in TTA 84/2 Hulk arrives in New York to search for the Avengers. He disguises himself with a hat and a coat from a men's over-size clothing store, but in the end of the issue he discards his disguise and his presense in New York becomes public knowledge. 

In ASM@ 3 the Avengers are aware that the Hulk has been seen in the city and gives Spider-Man a test that is to bring the Hulk to the Avengers. Spider-Man finds the Hulk in an alley down-town near a gamma ray research center. After some fighting Hulk breaks thru a gamma ray shielding wall and changes back to Banner. After hearing Banner's story Spider-Man feels sorry for Banner/Hulk and let's the changed back to the Hulk man leave. 

In TTA 85/2 the Hulk is still in New York and after some rampaging he jumps after the "Orion Missile" to stop it from blowing up the whole city. 

My suggestion is to the chronology for the Hulk like this: 

TTA 83/2 
TTA 84/2 
TTA 84 
TTA 84/2 
ASM@ 3 (New Placement) 
TTA 85/2 
TTA 85 
TTA 86/2 
TTA 87/2 
TTA 88/2 
ASM@ 3 (Remove) 
H2 393/2 (Placement?) 
TTA 89/2 

I don't have H2 393/2 and haven't found an issue summary of it, so where to place it I don't know. Still between 88/2 and 89/2 or right after ASM@ 3? Maybe some one here on the board can help? 

- Starman (aka Stefan A. on the old message board)
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Mar 2004 08:11 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

The placement of ASM@3 between TTA 88/2 and 89/2 is taken from George Olshevsky's original Marvel Index #7A. However, that placement was questioned by the time Olshevsky and Marvel published The Official Marvel Index to the Amazing Spider-Man #2. The entry for ASM@ 3 in that later index notes no before and after appearances for the Hulk. This suggests to me that Olshevsky was no longer willing to commit to the earlier placement of ASM@ 3 between TTA 88/2 and 89/2. To my knowledge, no new placement of ASM@3 on the Hulk's chronology has ever been published. 

Your sequence of events makes sense to me, but I don't have TTA 84 or 85 to check out the details for myself.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 09 May 2004 07:52 pm    
By Starman

The Hulk Chrono at the Leader's Lair has the same placement of ASM@ 3 as I suggested. I'm not sure I agree with the placement of H2 393/2 thou, but I guess it could happen somewhere during TTA 88/2, as he do fight with the military. and leap away from General Ross and his troops, in that issue. But as I haven't read H2 393/2, I don't dare to suggest it's there it should be placed. 

Leader's Lair - Gamma People - The Incredible Hulk Chronology 
http://www.leaderslair.com/gammapeople/hulk.html
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

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Posted: 10 May 2004 06:50 pm    
By michel

In the first sequence of Hulk #393/2, we see the Hulk crashing into US army tanks and planes in a desert, and we have Thunderbolt Ross in one panel. The crook that will meet the Hulk three times in his life, Coyote Cash, says : "Coyote Cash ans his rolling cashstasher are gonna cut a swath of robberies from one end of the Midwest to...". So it seems we're in the Midwest and not near New YorK. Has an early Hulk ever been near Chicago ?

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Posted: 11 May 2004 08:44 am    Post subject: Damballah correction
By Enda80

It turns out that there exists more than two entities called Damballah in the Marvel Universe. 

The earliest Damballah is the son of Set. He was mentioned as being Set's son in Marvel Team-Up Annual#5, then his birth was shown in Silver Surfer Annual#2/7. This Damballah is not the same as the Voodoo god Damballah [Dam Ayido] as noted in Doctor Strange III#16 (in both the main story and the back-up). 

This Damballah was referenced innumberale times in the Conan comics, as well, such as CTB I#82-84. This Damballah also appeared in King Conan#3. If that is kind of a gap book, you can leave it out. 

DAMBALLAH [Hyborian] 
*SS@ 2/7 
*KING CONAN 3 
ST 170-BTS 
A 152 
DRSTR2 48 

The Voodo god Damballah is a benevolent deity. 

DAMBALLAH [DAM-AYIDO, AFRICAN GOD] 
*DRSTR II 10/2-FB 

DAMBALLAH [HUMAN SORCERER] 

ST 169 
ST 170

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Posted: 11 May 2004 01:03 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

So, John... 

Is this the name you're going to be posting under from now on, then? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 11 May 2004 06:31 pm    Post subject: Sure, I'll stick with this name
By Enda80

Yes, I will stick with this name.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 09:18 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Cool. Keep 'em comin'. :smile:

-Jeph!

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Thread 19

Posted: 11 May 2004 12:05 am    Post subject: Psylocke
By captamr

Another stray flashback in the Psylocke listing led me to some interesting issues in New Mutants Annual #2: 

The Psylocke FB seems to derive from the first three pages of the annual where the caption on the splash page reads Last year. This isnt a flashback, but the beginning of the story, which begins one year ago for Psylocke. Since there arent any other appearances by her in the year prior to this issue, one notation of her appearance in this issue should suffice. 

However, along with her introduction in the first three pages there is also included her capture by Spiral and Mojo (possibly the worst Claremont villains around!). Unfortunately, these two have been around in the last year prior to the annuals publication. Up to this point, Spiral has bounced around with the Freedom Force jumping from encounters with the X-Men, X- Factor, East and West Coast Avengers waiting for Mojo to begin their master strategy. This is mildly explained in Spirals first appearance in UX 199. Mojo originates in the Longshot limited series easily a year prior to the Annual and partnered with Spiral. After the limited series, Spiral returns to the Freedom Force awaiting her next call to duty by Mojo. These events can be seen in UX 209 as well as the 1986 annuals for both Avengers. 

These events lead me to discount any FB but include additional listings for the villains: 

PSYLOCKE 

SSM&CB 243/2 
XX 3  FB 
**NM@ 2 - FB omit 
NM@ 2 
UX@ 10 


SPIRAL 

LSHOT 5 
LSHOT 6 
**NM@ 2 
UX 205 
UX 206 
 
 
A@ 15 
WCA@ 1 
NM@ 2 



MOJO 

LSHOT 5 
LSHOT 6 
**NM@ 2 
UX 209  BTS 
XCAL 64  FB 
NM@ 2
_________________
Charlie

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Posted: 11 May 2004 12:56 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

"Last year" doesn't necessarily mean "one year ago", though. If the bulk of the Annual took place in, say, a February, and the start took place in early December ... well, that's still technically "last year", even though it's only two or three months prior. 

I'd lean towards leaving Mojo and Spiral's chronologies alone, myself... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 11:14 pm
By captamr

Quote: 
>>>
well, that's still technically "last year", even though it's only two or three months prior. 
<<<


Good point, however, the last year is seen as winter in Switzerland at the start of NM@ 2 and the Mutants end the issue forming one of their impromptu baseball games indicating summer or at least spring. Pg. 8, pn.3 has Capt. Britain looking for Psylocke, Its taken me months to track you down. 

More importantly, Spiral and Mojo are obviously a coordinated team at the beginning of the issue. In recent issues of the X-Men prior to this annual, Spiral is a very charter member of Freedom Force, implying she returns to Mojo only when called. There are too many appearances with the Force to not assume that a suitable period of time occurs between the beginning of the New Mutants adventure and the rest of the issue. 

Theres also another significant team up of the villains, which occurs between these two time periods as Spiral is again summoned by Mojo to reel in Phoenix. This ends Phoenixs current association with the X-Men for a while, kind of important. 

I believe it is also the story s intent to have Psylocke captured for a long period of time as it adds to her indoctrination to the X-Men and Mutants. Just my opinion. 

Perhaps, someone should check the original issue analysis notes. They at least thought it generated a flashback.
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 20

Posted: 11 May 2004 05:39 am    Post subject: Impossible Man
By Nathan P. Mahney

Reading through Fantastic Four #11 and skimming Impossible Man's chronology, I noticed that there is a flashback of him leaving Poppup that happens right before that issue. Making the change is a simple matter of adding it in at the start of his chronology, as there are no other characters in the flashback. 

I was also wondering, why is that story listed as FF 11/2 when it's the first story in the issue?
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 11 May 2004 01:02 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I think it IS the second story in the issue. 

Are you reading a reprint? Most reprints put the Impossible Man story first because it was more action-packed than "the FF answer reader mail". 

Check the recent re-release of Marvel Masterworks: FF vol. 2. I think they made sure the stories ran in the correct order in that book. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 May 2004 07:57 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Yep, I read it in the Essential volume. I thought maybe that was the case, but thanks for the clarification.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Thread 21

Posted: 12 May 2004 12:49 pm    Post subject: Characters only BTS; no on-panel ever
By Enda80

EISMAN, HY 

M/SH3 4/2-BTS 

I saw this. So I take that the project does accept listings for characters who have only ever appeared behind the scenes?

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Posted: 12 May 2004 01:18 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Yes, as long as they fit the other criteria. 


watching: something on cnn

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Thread 22

Posted: 07 Mar 2004 04:14 pm    Post subject: is Uncanny Origins canonical?
By Scatach80

Is Uncanny Origins considered canonical?

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Posted: 10 Mar 2004 05:34 pm    
By Ant-Man

Good question! 
I have most of the issues in this series (I'll buy just about anything for 25 cents each!!), and I don't recall many items that are definitely non-canon. This was one of the series directed at a younger audience, so the stories are simplified, but are pretty well done. 
I'm willing to bet that there are a few scenes in those issues that deserve consideration...

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Posted: 10 Mar 2004 05:46 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

It's not so much flat-out "non-canon" as it is a RE-TELLING of major characters' origins. The same events, but with -- let's say -- different dialogue. 

Yes, some issues have new scenes in them, but I think we should base the canonicity of the new scenes by how well the re-told bits adhere to the originals. 

Various issues were written by various people, so we should probably take the series' canonicity on an issue-by-issue basis. If, say, the Hulk's issue of UO sticks very closely to what's already been established, we could probably allow any new scenes presented to stand -- but if Cyclops' issue of UO goes heavily against what we've seen before, any new scenes probably shouldn't count. 

I've been wondering lately what degrees of tolerance we should have for flashbacks that re-play events differently, or with different dialogue from the original scene. What counts as "close enough"? What counts as "a new scene" embedded within a flashback of old scenes? What counts as a "non-canon" retelling? 

We should probably set up some kind of system... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 03 May 2004 11:49 pm
By Dhall

I've just read the X-Men issues of these, and they (mostly) seem to be cannon. A lot of new stuff too, but it's mostly bridging material, between major events that we've already seen. When I get the time I'll write them up. 

I think we're going to have to ask two questions with these: 
a) Is this panel/page cannon (Does it contradict anything we've seen before? If it does we toss it out.) 
b) Is this a new scene? (If it's just a retelling of a previous scene, we also toss it out, new or old dialogue.) 

Unfortunatly, these will require a page by page (sometimes panel by panel) synopsis, plus a discussion of each page's cannonicity, and newness. There's enough new material to make it worthwhile. 

Dave H

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Posted: 04 May 2004 08:29 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
a) Is this panel/page cannon (Does it contradict anything we've seen before? If it does we toss it out.) 
<<<



I don't want to pick and choose individual panels as canon. Either the story they're telling is canon, or it isn't. 


watching: other watchers

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Posted: 04 May 2004 08:32 am    
By Dhall

With this series, there are probably only a very few panels that wouldn't be cannon (if any.) The bigger issue will be Is this a new panel, or a previous event that we've seen. (Kind of like we have to treat flashbacks as new or previously seen material.) 

Dave H

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Posted: 12 May 2004 03:31 pm    
By Dhall

At least in the UO issues that I have looked at so far, there isn't much (if anything) that is non-cannon. There are a lot of sequences that are simplified re-tellings of events previously seen in other comics (like the original X-Men backup origins from the 60's....I wish Marvel would just reprint a book of these.) We can ignore material that is just re-tellings of other stories (with no new material.) There are a couple of cases where the new material presented is at odds with previously established material, but these are usually just badly done re-tellings of previous events where some of the important (but ultimatly minor) details are incorrect. We can just ignore these in favor of the original events as presented in the original comics. 

I've seen nothing yet, that activly contradicts cannon. (No retcons, etc. And nothing that is clearly intended to supplant previously shown events) 

I am almost finished with the Beast issue (UO 6) 
I plan on tackling the Cyclops issue (UO 1) next. 
I am missing exactly 2 comics with flashbacks involving Quicksilver, but once I get those, I can do a write up for UO 2. 

I will leave all the non-mutant issues of this series to someone else. 

I also think we should start looking for cannon new scenes in Professor Xavier and the X-Men. That may become my next project depending on how busy grad school keeps me this summer. (Some day I'll get back to the AOA chronology....) 

Dave H

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Thread 23

Posted: 12 Apr 2004 11:46 am    Post subject: Sif correction
By Scatach80

The Sif in Thor I#403/2 is not the more famous Sif who is Heimdall's sister. The letters page to Thor I#407 explains that "It is a good thing the next letter explains the real story behind this apparent confusion over the Lady Sif" and a letter by Jeff Melton states that the name Sif is fairly common in Asgard. 

Thor Annual#11 established that the more famous Sif originally had blonde hair, which was replaced with black hair in Thor Annual#11-which I do not see listed anywhere.

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Posted: 12 Apr 2004 03:19 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Are you basing this PURELY on the letters page info, or is there some in-story problems that make it impossible for the woman in Thor #403/2 to be the Lady Sif? 

By the way -- again, please keep the subject lines short. The mods here read every post, there's no need to draw particular attention to yours. "Sif Correction" is just fine -- and that's what I've edited this one down to. No offense meant.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Apr 2004 06:30 pm    Post subject: Thor Annual#11 shows that.....
By Scathach80

"Are you basing this PURELY on the letters page info, or is there some in-story problems that make it impossible for the woman in Thor #403/2 to be the Lady Sif?" 
Thor Annual#11 shows that Lady Sif had blonde hair originally, and did not have black hair until she became an adult, yet the girl in Thor I#403/2 is shown with black hair as a child. 
Also, Thor Annual#5 showed that Sif and Thor did not grow up together. Thor was already an adult when Sif was a child.

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Posted: 14 Apr 2004 12:26 pm    
By John Simons

Hmm... so where does that leave the current Thor: Son of Asgard miniseries, where Thor, Sif, Balder and Loki are all shown to be the Asgardian equivalent of teenagers at the same time? 

I guess it could be argued that Thor is actually 150 in this series, Balder is 90, and Sif is 20, they just all look the same age because Asgardians age differently than us mere mortals. 

However, Sif does have black hair in this series, too. Whoops.

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Posted: 14 Apr 2004 12:57 pm    Post subject: Balder presents another problem
By Scathach80

Thor I#294 indicates that Balder was one of the Asgardians recreated in the last Ragnarok, and that he did not have a childhood.

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Posted: 14 Apr 2004 11:27 pm    
By John Simons

Actually, you'll note in Balder's chronology that there is no mention of T 294- FB. 

This is probably because in T 355, Tiwaz (Odin's father or grandfather, I forget which) pretty much dismissed all of the dubious claims of that giant floating eyeball.

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Posted: 15 Apr 2004 06:20 am    
By Scathach80

In Thor I#301, Gaea made comments that backed up the floating eyeball's claims, so unless one thinks that Gaea lied to Thor, it is not so clear cut. 

Also, some of the floating eyeball's other claims were backed up by Odin himself in Defenders I#109. Odin admitted that he had erased the Valkryie's memories of the Sigfired/Sigmund adventure.

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Posted: 16 Apr 2004 01:47 am    
By SeanCurtin

Scathach80 wrote: 
>>>
Thor Annual#11 established that the more famous Sif originally had blonde hair, which was replaced with black hair in Thor Annual#11-which I do not see listed anywhere. 
<<<


The Official Handbook Update '89 (#2 or #3, I believe) points out that there are appearances of Sif that depict her with black hair as a child, and writes these depictions off as errors. It definitely doesn't say "there are multiple Sifs in Asgard who are friends of Thor". Problem solved. 

-Sean

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Posted: 16 Apr 2004 08:55 am    
By Scathach80

I was going by the letters page in Thor I#407, which definetly stated that the name Sif is common in Asgard (similar to how somebody in a Muslim country would bump into numerous women named Maryam in their lifetime). 

Also, the fact that the Lady Sif was, in Thor Annual#5, shown to considerably younger than Thor (Thor was already an adult when Sif was a child), shows that this could not be the the more famous Sif.

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Posted: 16 Apr 2004 02:46 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Well, we've got to disregard the age discrepancy in either THOR ANNUAL #5, or in both THOR #407 and the THOR: SON OF ASGARD miniseries. 

-Sean

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Posted: 17 Apr 2004 11:10 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Or do as Scathach seems to be suggesting, (at least, I think he is) and set up two seperate Sif entries, one featuring a blond hair version, another for a black haired version...cause there would appear to be no way to reconcile and merge the two versions...right? 

The "Thor: Son of Asgard" miniseries with the blackhaired Sif teenager seems to be Marvel's current version of 'canon' on the subject. But I don't think we should neccesarily wipe out previous stories...so the real question is "Which comic issues get to go under the 'real' Sif, and which get to go towards a new Sif character?"
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 18 Apr 2004 04:51 am    
By Scathach80

Probably we should do a new Sif entry, with a notation to the effect 

Sif 
Note: Per letters page of Thor I#407, the Sif in this story is simply a person who had the same name as the Sif who is Heimdall's sister. 

Thor 403/2 

I have not read Son of Asgard, so I am not sure what to do with it.

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Posted: 18 Apr 2004 04:55 am    Post subject: Sif entry; proposed correction
By Scathach80

SIF [Per letters page in Thor I#407, the person in this story is not the more famous Sif, sister of Heimdall, but just a namesake, similar to how one may know of many women named Mary in a Muslim or Christian nation.] 
T 403/2 

SIF 
T@ 5 
JIM 102/2 
T@ 14/3 
JIM -1 
T2 1-FB 
T 136 
T 137 
T 138

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Posted: 18 Apr 2004 02:30 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Or do as Scathach seems to be suggesting, (at least, I think he is) and set up two seperate Sif entries, one featuring a blond hair version, another for a black haired version...cause there would appear to be no way to reconcile and merge the two versions...right? 

The "Thor: Son of Asgard" miniseries with the blackhaired Sif teenager seems to be Marvel's current version of 'canon' on the subject. But I don't think we should neccesarily wipe out previous stories...so the real question is "Which comic issues get to go under the 'real' Sif, and which get to go towards a new Sif character?" 
<<<


Well, obviously they should all go under the "real" Sif's chronology; the question is now to make them fit. As I've suggested earlier, we assume that black-haired young Sif is a colorist's mistake--if Joe Robertson gets miscolored as Caucasian we're not going to include the miscolored character's appearances in a seperate entry for ROBERTSON, JOE II. 

As for the age discrepancy, I've never read T@ 5, but it's possible that Thor and Sif knew each other when Thor was in his late teens while Sif was in her early teens, and then went for years without seeing one another. Now, if Sif in T@ 5 is a young child and Thor is definitely an adult, the problem is much more difficult to reconcile; but again, we could assume that T@ 5 depicts Thor as being older than he actually was at the time, and Sif as younger--for example, at the time, Sif might be 8-10 years old while Thor is 16. 

I'd rather reconsider one story (especially if it's not been referenced since then) than chuck six subsequent issues out of continuity. It seems to me that there's a school of thought on the MCP lately that assumes that errors in a story mean the story is non-canonical or that the characters appearing in it aren't the "real" versions of those characters, rather than trying to reconcile the errors with established continuity. Where's the No-Prize love?? 

-- 
Sean Curtin

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Posted: 19 Apr 2004 11:13 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

I'm not in favor of pitching out the stories either, but those two different versions listed just seem hard to merge...if we can overlook the age difference somehow, then YES, let's just merge the two, but otherwise, just create a seperate entry.... 

I don't have the THOR issues in question, but as I'm reading the current Thor: Son of Asgard miniseries, I figured I'd give my two cents...it seems Marvel has Sif being the same age as Thor now...so that's the REAL Sif, as far as I'm concerned, (but again, if we can merge the two, that's fine with me).
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 19 Apr 2004 11:28 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Scathach80 wrote: 
>>>
Probably we should do a new Sif entry, with a notation to the effect 

Sif 
Note: Per letters page of Thor I#407, the Sif in this story is simply a person who had the same name as the Sif who is Heimdall's sister. 

Thor 403/2 

I have not read Son of Asgard, so I am not sure what to do with it. 
<<<


If we were to end up with seperate entries, I'm not in favor of having a footnote that bases the entry off of a letter's page. We should just have a footnote saying "This Sif cannot possibly be the same Sif as seen elsewhere, because of mixed ages in character portrayels" or something like that....
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 21 Apr 2004 12:42 pm    
By John Simons

Scathach80 is right that T@ 11 is currently missing from the MCP. Its not a gap book, so I cant see why it wouldnt be there. Russ, if you need this book analyzed I can step up to the plate. If needs be I could also do Thor: Son of Asgard upon its completion, assuming nothing that happens in it throws it out of continuity. 

As for T 403/2, it seems pretty plain to me that this is meant to be a young Sif, and it is simply a case of the colorist not knowing her hair is supposed to be blond. Maybe Sif dyed her hair for awhile as a young teen because nobody took her seriously as a blond??? 

Scathach80 mentions that there is an age disparity between Sif and Thor in T@ 5, but unfortunately I dont have that issue yet. Maybe he could explain the scene more thoroughly, and what ages the characters appear to be. In T 403/ 2, Thor refers to Sif as a child, but he doesnt appear all that old himself, perhaps 15 or 16 to her 11 or 12. 

Also, I feel Scathach80 is overstating the validity of the letter writers claims from T 407. Going by his posts, it seems as though some scholar of Norse mythology knows for a fact that Sif was a common name. In fact, what the letter writer says is, This then, is obviously not the same Sif that we know and love today, but another woman named Sif. Perhaps the name Sif is somewhat common in Asgard? To which the editors reply, Er... thanks for the Sif save, Jeff! I find this to be a weak pretext for assuming a retcon. 

If for some reason, the Sif of T 403/2 is judged to be a different Sif, I would argue that she isnt an important enough character to deserve an MCP entry. 

As for the veracity of the floating eyeballs claims, it is true that Gaea seems to support the idea that Odin created many of the current Asgardians. T@ 11 also has her mention this version of events. However, it doesnt neceassarily means she is lying, it could simply be that she was misled, either by Odin or the Eye, in the same way Thor was misled. 

The only reason why I lean toward Tiwazs version is because it is more recent, therefore it appears a deliberate attempt by Simonson to retcon history. I realize that retcons are tricky when they dont properly establish why the earlier version of events is false, but in this case since the earlier version is told second-hand through a possibly discreditible source, the doubt is definitely raised. Tiwaz could have ulterior motives as well, of course, so given the information we have been given so far it is hard to choose one version or the other as accurate. 

On a purely personal level, I dont like the Roy Thomas version as, in essence, it makes many of the Asgardian characters constructs created whole by Odin rather than beings who were born and matured in the usual way. This makes them seem less real to me (and yes, I do realize how dumb I sound arguing the realness of comic book characters) 

As for Odin mentioning the Sigmund adventures in Defenders, the Eyes claims could be a mix of fact and fiction (the best lies do have a grain of truth in them), so it could be that those are true while the origins of Odin and the new Asgardians is false. 

In short, I would say the jury is still out on this case. 

Incidentally, while researching this I noticed that in her first published appearence, Sif is referred to as Balders sister, rather than Heimdalls. Whats up with that???

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Posted: 21 Apr 2004 02:43 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Incidentally, while researching this I noticed that in her first published appearence, Sif is referred to as Balders sister, rather than Heimdalls. Whats up with that??? 
<<


That Stan Lee forgot what he had written in the first story? 

Sif is in the original legends a very minor character. Hardly anything is know about her, aside from getting her hair cut of by Loki, being married to Thor, and the mother of his son Modi and daughter Trud. Aside from this there is a suggestion that she was unfaithful to Thor, and she is also the mother of Ull.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: 21 Apr 2004 10:11 pm    Post subject: How could Gaea be fooled? She was around since just after th
By Scathach80

"As for the veracity of the floating eyeballs claims, it is true that Gaea seems to support the idea that Odin created many of the current Asgardians. T@ 11 also has her mention this version of events. However, it doesnt neceassarily means she is lying, it could simply be that she was misled, either by Odin or the Eye, in the same way Thor was misled." 
The only thing that worries me is how is it that Gaea could have been fooled? Gaea has existed since just after the creation of the Earth. She was around when the dinosaurs existed. She was worshipped during the Thurian Age and Hyborian Age as Danu. * 
Being around during the Hyborian Age she would have witnessed the worship of the various gods before and after. She would have noticed starting in the Hyborian Age* that one pantheon kept getting destroyed and coming back. Still, as stated below, I bow to editorial edicts. 

"The only reason why I lean toward Tiwazs version is because it is more recent, therefore it appears a deliberate attempt by Simonson to retcon history. I realize that retcons are tricky when they dont properly establish why the earlier version of events is false, but in this case since the earlier version is told second-hand through a possibly discreditible source, the doubt is definitely raised." 
The Official Handbook Deluxe Edition, and the Master Edition entries for Vidar and Thor, treated it as a possibly falsified flashback under the entries for Thor and Odin, so I bow to editorial fiat. 

"Tiwaz could have ulterior motives as well, of course, so given the information we have been given so far it is hard to choose one version or the other as accurate." 
Tiwaz persuaded Thor that he should trust his father. I would not trust my father if he erased my memory, crippled me, and dumped me on Earth for ten years. But, that is just me..... 

*In Kull II#2, a Pict invoked "The Great Mother Danu". In early issues of King Conan, another Pict invoked Danu. Also in Conan the Savage#5, the Sisterhood of Danu appeared. The Spider-Man Encyclopedia established that Danu is another name for Gaea. 

*In various Conan stories, gods with names such as Wodun (Conan the Savage#3 and #10, Conan Annual#7; Wodun's spear), Wotan (Savage Tales I#4), Bragi (CTB I#17), Hodar (Savage Tales I#4), and Thor (Conan of the Isles) were invoked.

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Posted: 23 Apr 2004 06:58 pm    Post subject: Sif image
By Scathach80

Here is an image of Sif from Thor Annual#5. 

(Edited by Jeph: Alvaro's got it set up so that any link or direct-post of his site's images just gets you his Comicboards logo -- as you can see by clicking on the URL below -- but by copying and pasting the URL text into your browser window you can see the image, of a young, blonde Sif meeting an adult-looking Thor.) 

http://www.comicboards.com/thor/attachments/040423235729/sif%20%282%29.jpg

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Posted: 24 Apr 2004 02:02 am    
By John Simons

Okay, something is way screwed up here. JIM 102/2 tells the story of Thor, aged 18, lifting mjolnir for the first time and going to rescue the very adult Sif from Hela. 

In this image from T@ 5, Sif looks like she's about 14--- but Thor is not only adult-looking, but holding his hammer already! 

This scene would only make sense if Sif was older, and it took place after JIM 102/2. 

If we can argue that some early Sif appearences have a colorist mistake because her hair is black instead of blond, can't we say that @5 contains an artist's mistake because she is flat-chested instead of buxom?

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Posted: 24 Apr 2004 12:44 pm 
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Scathach80 is right that T@ 11 is currently missing from the MCP. Its not a gap book, so I cant see why it wouldnt be there. Russ, if you need this book analyzed I can step up to the plate. If needs be I could also do Thor: Son of Asgard upon its completion, assuming nothing that happens in it throws it out of continuity. 


In short, I would say the jury is still out on this case. 
<<<
 


I think I'm going to agree with you: the jury's still out, and I'm content to leave it at that for now... 

But as for Thor:Son of Asgard, I was originally scheduled to do a review for placement upon the miniseries' completion, but if you want to do it, feel free to. I've got my hands full with reviews for many other titles, as it is...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 24 Apr 2004 06:43 pm    
By SeanCurtin

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Okay, something is way screwed up here. JIM 102/2 tells the story of Thor, aged 18, lifting mjolnir for the first time and going to rescue the very adult Sif from Hela. 

In this image from T@ 5, Sif looks like she's about 14--- but Thor is not only adult-looking, but holding his hammer already! 

This scene would only make sense if Sif was older, and it took place after JIM 102/2. 

If we can argue that some early Sif appearences have a colorist mistake because her hair is black instead of blond, can't we say that @5 contains an artist's mistake because she is flat-chested instead of buxom? 
<<<


Good point. Thor's age at which he first wields Mjolnir is, I'd say, more important than his age relative to Sif. I agree with moving T@ 5 to after Thor recieves Mjolnir, and chalking Sif's apparent youth up to writer/artist error.

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Posted: 05 May 2004 11:17 pm    
By John Simons

Well, I was finally able to track down T@ 5 (probably overpaid, too), and unfortunately the Sif issue is even more complicated when you look at the entire scene beyond the 2 panels linked to above. About Sif having a crush on him, Thor says, but there be many years ahead ere thou shouldst concern thyself with such weighty matters. In other words, the dialogue confirms what the art says and we were trying to ignore, namely that Sif is a younger girl-- at a time when Thor is full grown and in possession of his hammer. Although they did manage to remember that Sif had blond hair as a kid, the creators didnt do their homework as far the tale of Thor rescuing Sif and gaining Mjolnir as shown in JIM 102/2. 

Now, in order to make this work, the following hypothesis could be considered: the artists error is not in Sifs depiction, but in having Thors hammer in his hand. It actually should be-- eh, a croquet mallet! Yeah, thats the ticket! 

If only that were the one problem with this annual; theres more: 

T@ 5 is structured into 2 sections; Steve Englehart gives us a 10-page recap of the entire history of Asgard leading up to the opening of the main story. Then theres the one page thats been under discussion in this thread. Then the rest of the issue involves the cover story, a battle between Thor and the Asgardians against Hercules and the Olympians. 

In the Asgardian recap we learn the following tidbits: 

1. Although in JIM 97/2 we learn that Odin and his brothers implanted Yggdrasill into the Earth, this recap goes a step farther and claims that they created the Earth itself! Has any other non-Thor comic ever made reference to the formation of the Earth, whether by the Asgardians or by some other manner? (This also begs the question if Odin, Vili and Ve created the Earth, where did the other pantheons of Gods come from, and why are they suffered to squat on the Allfathers world?) 

2. Oh yeah, Englehart also claims they used sparks from Muspelheim to create the Sun, Moon, and Stars!!! So much for that whole Big Bang hoax! 

3. Englehart tells the story of Odin, Hoenir, and Lodur coming across tree trunks on the plains of Earth, and transforming them into Aske and Embla, the first humans. This is in direct contradiction of JIM 103/2, in which Thor is sent by Odin to the wizard Mirmir with a branch of Yggdrasill, which is transformed into, you guessed it, Aske and Embla. 
(By the way, is this the accepted origin of the MUs human race? Or are Aske and Embla just considered to be the first Norsemen?) 

4. Geirrodur is described as the forger of Mjolnir, when many other sources (including T@ 11, T 339 and various Marvel Handbook entries) name Eitri as the forger. Englehart also implies that Thor chose Mjolnir to be his hammer, when other stories show that Odin had the hammer forged and named it, and it was Odin who decreed it would be inherited by Thor when he grew powerful enough to wield it. 

In short, this annual is a chronologists nightmare! 

Now, since there is no notation for this annual early in Odins chronology, or in Geirrodurs, my assumption (and hope) is that Russ has already decided to discount the 10-page Asgardian recap as an illustration of Norse myths rather than what actually occured historically in the MU. 

As far as I can tell, the Asgard vs. Olympus story has no serious flaws... so its only that darn Thor/Sif page thats giving me heartburn. T@ 11 establishes that Thor first visited Earth after Sif is not only an adult but also already has black hair. 

So, trying mightily for a no-prize here, heres how I propose making this annual work: 
Page one: Just a title page, not part of the story. 
Page 2-11: Non-canon illustration of some Asgardian myths. Ignore. 
Page 12, panels 1-4: Take place shortly after Thor and Sif meet in T 403/2. Artwork depiction of hammer is the mistake. 
Page 12, panel 5- end of book: Takes place years later, after Thor has become involved with the Vikings as shown in chapter 5 of T@ 11. 

Assuming that Russ and the board find this attempt at placement do-able, I make suggestions for rearranging Thors chronology in the T@ 11 thread over on the Issue Analysis board...

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Posted: 05 May 2004 11:58 pm    
By SeanCurtin

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
3. Englehart tells the story of Odin, Hoenir, and Lodur coming across tree trunks on the plains of Earth, and transforming them into Aske and Embla, the first humans. This is in direct contradiction of JIM 103/2, in which Thor is sent by Odin to the wizard Mirmir with a branch of Yggdrasill, which is transformed into, you guessed it, Aske and Embla. 
(By the way, is this the accepted origin of the MUs human race? Or are Aske and Embla just considered to be the first Norsemen?) 
<<<


I'd assume that Aske and Embla really did exist and were the ancestors of (some of) the Norsemen, as none of the other JIM "Tales of Asgard" stories seem to be non-canonical. 

-Sean

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Posted: 06 May 2004 12:26 am    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

John Simons wrote: 

>>>
As far as I can tell, the Asgard vs. Olympus story has no serious flaws... so its only that darn Thor/Sif page thats giving me heartburn. T@ 11 establishes that Thor first visited Earth after Sif is not only an adult but also already has black hair. 
<<<

 


Hmmm...Dan Jurgens run on Thor has had a couple of instances showing Thor visit Earth as a kid. There was one story in an Annual, I think, and another in Thor #52, I think...So that contradicts T@ 11... 

Thor's chronology is the biggest nightmare among all the "immortal" characters...I mean, not even Wolverine is this difficult!
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 06 May 2004 12:47 am    
By John Simons

With all due respect, I disagree that Thor is "a kid" in T2 52. He has an innocent face, and less muscles than we are accustomed to seeing, but he is wearing his traditional costume and sporting Mjolnir. I buy him as being in his early 20's, which is what T@ 11 implies... 

Not sure which annual you are thinking of, but I would be interested in checking it out...

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 May 2004 11:27 am    Post subject: Thor Annual#5 caveat; time-travelling Greek warriors
By Scathach80

There is a peculiar note to Thor Annual#5. Thor I#300 and The Official Handbook entries for Zeus and Hercules reveals that this incident happened around 1000 CE, around the time of the Third Host of the Celestials. 

However, this created a problem. Namely, in Thor Annual#5, Hercules leads a group of Greek Warriors against the Vikings. Yet, the Greeks had stopped worshipping the Olympian gods long before 1000 CE. So, we find out that those Greek warriors were time-travellers! 


Verbatim from official Handbook; 
http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/z/zeus.htm 
"A millennium ago Zeus' son Hercules led a band of warriors he had *transported through time* from ancient Greece to battle Norsemen who were under the protection of the Asgardian god Thor. This conflict led to war between the Asgardians and Olympians. Zeus secretly met with Odin, ruler of the Asgardians, and the two gods not only put an end to the war, but also formed an alliance to defend Earth from danger posed by the alien Celestials." 
(*asterix mine)

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 May 2004 11:37 am    Post subject: The Floating Eyeball said that those were just fables, but..
By Scathach80

"In the Asgardian recap we learn the following tidbits: 

1. Although in JIM 97/2 we learn that Odin and his brothers implanted Yggdrasill into the Earth, this recap goes a step farther and claims that they created the Earth itself!" Has any other non-Thor comic ever made reference to the formation of the Earth, whether by the Asgardians or by some other manner?" 
In Silver Surfer Annual#2, in the Serpent Crown back-up, the Watcher relates seeing the formation of the Earth. He does not mention Odin. 

2. "Oh yeah, Englehart also claims they used sparks from Muspelheim to create the Sun, Moon, and Stars!!! So much for that whole Big Bang hoax!" 
The Handbook entries for Ymir and Surtur note that stories of Asgardians create the moon, etc. are fables. 

3. Englehart tells the story of Odin, Hoenir, and Lodur coming across tree trunks on the plains of Earth, and transforming them into Aske and Embla, the first humans.............................(By the way, is this the accepted origin of the MUs human race? Or are Aske and Embla just considered to be the first Norsemen?) 

Hmmm. The human race, as seen in Uncanny X-Men Annual#13 and elsewhere, evolved from fossil primates. Otherwise the Celestials would not make sense. 
In Thor I#293-294, the floating eyeball called many of those Tales of Asgard stories just fables that the Asgardians made up. But then, the eyeball itself made some assertions that were controversial......... 
As for the origins of the Norsemen.......well, in Conan's time there existed a land called Nordheim. The Nordheimr had many elements in common with Viking Culture. In fact, one part of Nordheim was even called Asgard! 
http://blaklion.best.vwh.net/timeline597.html has info on Nordheim. 
By the way, in Thor Annual#5, we also see the origin of Ymir retold. It shows the birth of his first children. 
Well, one of them is a blonde female. In Savage Tales I#1, Atali, Ymir's daughter appeared. She was a blonde female. A man also said that Atali was Ymir's first child.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 May 2004 12:30 am    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
With all due respect, I disagree that Thor is "a kid" in T2 52. He has an innocent face, and less muscles than we are accustomed to seeing, but he is wearing his traditional costume and sporting Mjolnir. I buy him as being in his early 20's, which is what T@ 11 implies... 

Not sure which annual you are thinking of, but I would be interested in checking it out... 
<<<


You're right, I was remembering wrong...he was somewhat older in T2 52...and now that I think about it, the other story I was thinking of wasn't in an annual...it was Thor Issue #50. A back up story...all's I remember was a kid Thor crying because humans were sacrificing other humans to him...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 11:30 pm    Post subject: Thor history jumbled again
By Enda80

http://milehighcomics.com/firstlook/marvel/thor/page01.html 

Oeming seems to think that Buri was the name of a dwarf. 
Also, that the forging of Mjolnir caused the destruciton of the dinosaurs! 
http://milehighcomics.com/firstlook/marvel/thor/page02.html 

Two previous explanations for extinction of dinosaurs 
*Atum's battle with Set per Iron Man Annual#10 
*a meteor per Conan the Barbarian I#163

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Posted: 12 May 2004 05:48 pm    Post subject: Loki Notes; Venus 6, 7, 9, 12
By Enda80

Venus takes place in the 1940's, so after T 370, which is an Old West story. 

Loki [ASGARDIAN] 

T 400/4 
T@ 14/4 
T 323 
T 370 
*VENUS 6 
*VENUS 7 
*VENUS 9 
*VENUS 12 
T 479-FB 
M/TALES 252/2 
JIM -1 
{JIM 85} 
JIM 88-FB 
JIM 88 
JIM 91

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 09:28 am    
By dimadick

"Venus takes place in the 1940's". 

Not entirely. The series was published between August, 1948 and April, 1952. When does "T 479-FB" take place?

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Posted: 14 May 2004 08:56 pm    Post subject: Dai Thomas question
By Enda80

Was Dai Thomas already known as the "hero hater" in his Captain Britain Weekly appearances? Also, did his spouse ever appear in any of those stories? 

I ask because in Captain Britain Monthly#1, a brief flashback to Thomas' spouse's death (named as Valerie in the original Knights of Pendragon series) occurs. We know this happened before The Daredevils#9, because in a newspaper article in that issue, Thomas refers to his spouse's death.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 May 2004 10:59 pm    
By Dhall

Dai's wife is already dead by the time he makes his first appearances in Captain Britian Weekly. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 May 2004 12:56 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

According to the MCP, Dai first appears in Marvel Preview #3. I initially thought that this would be the appearance where his wife dies (I don't have the issue), but our handy search feature here only shows appearances by Dracula, Blade, Dai, and his assistant Kate Fraser. According to the FB, Dai's wife is killed in a battle between Thor and some shadowed villain -- so since Thor isn't in M/PRV #3, this can't be where she dies. 

So, does Dai mention anything about a dead wife -- or an alive wife -- in his M/PRV #3 appearance? 

-Jeph! 

Oh, also: Kate Fraser appears in M/PRV #3 as Kate "Frasier" -- but when she goes on to appear in CB comics with Dai, her name changes to Fraser. Right now we have two entries for her, one on top of the other -- they should be combined down into one. 

FRASER, DET. KATE 
*M/PRV 3 
CB 5 
CB 8 

*(FRASIER, KATE) - removed

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 May 2004 04:15 am    Post subject: If it helps.....
By Enda80

In the Daredevils#7 and #9, there is a newspaper that features an article in the Guardian where Dai Thomas gives a statement to the public. In it, it is mentioned that his spouse died in New York, and that the battle she died in involved the Hulk. 

So the Hulk was that other figure in the CB flashback. 

In the original Knights of Pendragon series, Thomas' spouse's name was given as Valerie.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 May 2004 07:42 am    
By Dhall

According to Uncanny X.net 



Quote: 
>>>
Kate Fraser had previously appeared in some Vampire Tales comics as a psychic helping Scotland Yard.  
<<<


Hope this helps..... 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Posted: 12 May 2004 02:09 pm    Post subject: USAgent first series     
By Ron Flick

With USAgent/John Walker's anticipated starring role in the upcoming Invaders series, I was curious to see what his chronology looked like. I didn't see a listing for his self-titled 1993 4-issue miniseries, the one in which the 1940s Angel shows up as a disturbed ally to the Scourge. 

Is this an oversight? 

Thanks, 

Ron Flick

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 10:56 pm    
By John Simons

Are you unfamiliar with the dreaded Gap? See the Key for details.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 May 2004 10:56 pm
By Ron Flick

Ooops...I spaced that possibility!

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Posted: 17 May 2004 06:02 am    Post subject: Appearances in IRON FIST
By RLG

Peter Parker and Mary Jane appear in IRON FIST #8 on pg 7, pn 1. I'm not 100% sure where this fits in with their chronologies, but this should be close (providing that the "summer" reference is accurate.) 

SPIDER-MAN/ PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 

ASM 152 
HTD 1 
IF 8 - new 
MTU 39 


WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 

ASM 152 
IF 8 - new 
ASM 153 


Also, the flashback in IRON FIST #15 in which Misty Knight accepts an undercover assignment from D.A. Tower is not in either Tower's or Lt. Scarfes' chronologies. However, it is in Misty Knight's chronology. 

SCARFE, RAFAEL 

IF 10 
IF 15 -FB - new 
IF 15 


TOWER, BLAKE 
(not sure where the flashback should go, but have narrowed it down) 

DD 138 (Oct) 
??IF 15 - FB 
DD 148 (early March or early April) 
??IF 15 - FB 
PM/IF 53

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Posted: 18 May 2004 01:16 pm    Post subject: Tales of Suspense
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

Tales of Suspense #39-#99 and IM&SM 1: 


* adjustment required 
** new entries 


BYRD, SEN. HARRINGTON 
IM:IA 1 
{TOS 46} 
TOS 47 
**TOS 53 (voice only) (7p3) not definitive, but the Senator was not given a name until TOS 68, and we never saw any other politician be concerned with Stark International 
TOS 66 

BLACK PANTHER/T'CHALLA 
FF@ 5 
*TOS 97 s/b TOS 97/2 
*TOS 98/2 s/b TOS 98 
A 51-BTS 
TOS 98 
TOS 99/2 
A 51 
*TOS 99 s/b TOS 99/2 
CA 100 

CHAMELEON/DMITRI SMERDYAKOV 
SENSM '96-BTS 
TOS 58 (1-16) 
**TOS 58-FB (18p2) Chameleon watching fight between CA and IM and being discovered by Giant-Man & Wasp 
TOS 58 (17-18) 


CLEOPATRA 
** TOS 44-FB (6p4) Cleopatra entombing the Mad Pharoah 
TOS 44 

CRIMSON DYNAMO/PROF. ANTON VANKO 
**TOS 46-FB1 (2-5p4) "back two weeks.back to Red Russia" Crimson Dynamo demos armour to Khrushchev 
**TOS 56-FB (9p6) Crimson Dynamo is wearing his armour while he puts finishing touches to Unicorn's armour. Figure he wouldn't be wearing his if it was not fully operational and the demo for the leader would have been as soon as operational. So I place this in the two week span between TOS 46-FB1 and TOS 46-FB2 
**TOS 46-FB2 (6p1) Crimson Dynamo sabotages launch. 
TOS 46 
TOS 52 

DORMA [ATLANTEAN] 
TOS 79 
**TOS 80-FB-BTS (Lady Dorma is aboard Krang's command ship when it is observed by Namor (7p3-8p2) 
TTA 82-BTS 

DR. STRANGE 
**TOS 41-FB (8p2) prior capture by US troops 
TOS 41 

GARGANTUS 
**TOS 40-FB (13p2) first contact 
TOS 40 

GIANT-MAN/HANK PYM 
ASM@ 1 
**TOS 58-FB (18p2) 
TOS 58 (17p2-18p8) Giant-man & Wasp discovering Chameleon observing IM-CA fight 

HALF-FACE 
**TOS 93-FB (7p3 - 9p1) origin of Half-face 
TOS 92 

HOGAN, HAROLD J. "HAPPY" 
TOS 45 
**TOS 46-FB (5p5-6p2) Happy & Pepper watching pre-launch 
TOS 46 
. . . . . 
TOS 76 
**TOS 80 (11p1-BTS, 11p2, 11p4) 
TOS 82 
. . . . . 
TOS 87 
*TOS 88 Im not seeing Happy in TOS 88 
TOS 89 

HOGAN, VIRGINIA "PEPPER" POTTS 
TOS 45 
**TOS 46-FB (5p5-6p2) Happy & Pepper watching pre-launch 
TOS 46 

IRON MAN/TONY STARK 
TOS 45 
** TOS 46-FB1 (6p1-6p3) excusing self from Happy & Pepper to change to IM 
TOS 46 (1,6p6-12p2 ) 
**TOS 46-FB2 (13p2) falsifying evidence 
TOS 46 (12p3-13p1,13p3 on) 
M/CP 58/4 
. . . . 
ASM@ 1 
TOS 58 (1-15p5) 
** TOS 58-FB (18p2) observed by the Chameleon (IM is all but indiscernible but the Wasp states that the Chameleon was "crouched above you"" to IM.) 
TOS 58 (15p6 on) 
MARVELS 2 
. . . . . 
TOS 79 (1-11p3) 
**TOS 80-FB (7p3) observed by Namor just prior to the repulsor blast hitting Krangs ship 
TOS 79 (1p4-11p2) 
**TOS 80-FB (8p3) followed by Namor back to land 
TOS 79 (12p3 on) 

KENNEDY, JOHN FITZGERALD 
FF 17 
JIM 96 
**TOS 41 
**TOS 43 

KHRUSHCHEV,NIKITA Not in MCP but I figured if I was doing JFK I should do both 
**TOS 41 
**TOS 46-FB 
**TOS 52 
**TOS 53 
**TOS 64-FB 

KRANG [ATLANTEAN] 
TOS 79 
*TOS 80 s/b TOS 80-FB-BTS (Krang is aboard his command ship when the ship is observed by Namor (7p3-8p2) 
TTA 82-BTS 


MAD PHARAOH/HATAP 
**TOS 44-FB (6p2-6p3,6p4-BTS) shows the Mad Pharoah taking suspended animation serum and then Cleopatra entombing him 
TOS 44 

MANDARIN 

The Mandarins origin was told in TOS 62; I consider the IM 274 origin to be comparable with nothing really new added, and as such I would delete the IM 274-FB reference as a retelling of TOS 62-FB (which begins at an earlier point in time and goes further) 

MANDARIN 
*IM 274-FB to be removed 
**TOS 62-FB 
IM 267-FB 


Mapping: 

TOS 62-FB 2p4 - 3p5 infancy to adult wandering 
TOS 62-FB 3p6 ~ IM 274-FB 8p3 wandering the mountains 
TOS 62-FB 4p1 ~ IM 274-FB 8p4 finds cave 
TOS 62-FB 4p2-4p3 ~ IM 274-FB 8p5 finds dragon skeleton 
TOS 62-FB 4p4 ~ IM 274-FB 8p6-9p1 sees ship 

(biggest variance in TOS 62 Mandy is so startled by the unexpected skeleton that he steps back from the cave mouth and falls into the valley below, discovering the spaceship. In IM 274 he steps past the skeleton and finds the ship further into the cave. My take on it is that by IM 274 the Mandarin's ego would not allow him to admit that the discovery was part accident that he only found because he was startled/scared and then actually FELL into it. So in IM 274 he boasted that he conquered his fear and went PAST the skeleton to find the ship. Also CHEN HSU (IM 274) states that the ship crashed. More likely it would be outside rather than inside a mountain.) 

TOS 62-FB 4p5-5p6 ~ IM 274-FB 9p2 (narratives 1&2) enters and explores ship 
TOS 62-FB 5p7 ~ IM 274-FB 9p2 (narratives 3&4) finds rings 
TOS 62-FB 5p8-6p6 ~ IM 274-FB 9p2 (narrative 5) studies and gains ring control 



However if you want to maintain both, I make the interweaving as: 

TOS 62-FB 2p4 - 3p5 infancy to adult wandering 
IM 274-FB 8p3 wandering, lost,near death 
TOS 62-FB 3p6 sees glow from valley 
TOS 62-FB 4p1 approaches cave 
IM 274-FB 8p4 finds cave 
TOS 62-FB 4p2 ~ IM 274-FB 8p5 finds dragon skeleton 
TOS 62-FB 4p3 falls of cliff edge 
IM 274-FB 8p6 Shock at seeing spaceship 
TOS 62-FB 4p4 post shock immediate appraisal of ship (see discrepancy note above) 
IM 274-FB 9p1 approaches ship (translate cave to valley) 
TOS 62-FB 4p5 ~ IM 274-FB 9p2 (narratives 1&2) enters ship 
TOS 62-FB 4p6-5p6 explores ship 
IM 274-FB ~ IM 274-FB 9p2 (narratives 3&4 and panel) sees rings 
TOS 62-FB 5p7 approaches rings 
TOS 62-FB 5p8-6p1 takes rings and everything salvageable to valley castle 
TOS 62-FB 6p2-6p3 ~ IM 274-FB 9p2(narrative 5) studies and gains ring control 
TOS 62-FB 6p4-6p6 dons rings and displays power 

STARK, MORGAN 
TOS 97 
** TOS 99 6p1, 6p3,6p5-6p6) 
IM 17 

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
TTA 81 
**TOS 80-FB (7p2,7p3,8p2,8p3) 
TOS 79 
TOS 80 

UNICORN/MYLOS MASARYK 
**TOS 56-FB (9p6-10p7) creation and testing of the Unicorn Armour 
TOS 56 

WASP 
ASM@ 1 
**TOS 58-FB-BTS (18p2) Giant-man & Wasp discovering Chameleon observing IM-CA fight 
TOS 58 (17p2-18p8)

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Posted: 19 May 2004 05:58 pm    Post subject: Ghaur. Llyra additions
By Enda80

Those Saga of the Serpent Crown stories have some interesting additions 

**GAEA [EARTH-S] 
**AWC@ 4/5-FB 

GHAUR [DEVIANT] 
**XF@ 4/4-FB 
E2 2 
E2 5 

JONES, HUGH 
IM:IA 1 
IM:IA 2 
CA 180 
CA 181 
CA 185 
**WOSM@ 5/6-FB 
A 141 

LLYRA/LLYRA MORRIS 
**NM@ 5/3-FB 
**XF @4/4-FB 
SUB-M 32 
SUB-M 36 
SUB-M 37 

The Watcher relates how Namor tried to kill Naga (in possession of the Serpent Llyra, the high priestess of Set, plans to kill Karthon and become empress. Ghaur observes her. 

Since these stories all narrated by the Watcher, that makes them all flashbacks, and I have so listed them. 

The Gaea from AWC was presumably the Earth-S version, and I have so listed her.

			*	*	*

Thread 30

Posted: 18 May 2004 07:26 am    Post subject: Weapon X flashback
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

In last week's Weapon X v2 #23, we see a flashback in which John Sublime calls "the Professor," the man who runs the Weapon X program. This flashback clearly occurs before another flashback in which the Professor is dead and Sublime asks Malcolm Colcord to head up Weapon X. 

So what the heck is Maverick doing in the first flashback, in firearm practice in the Professor's facility? He was recruited into Weapon X by Colcord and turned into Agent Zero. Later on, Bolt assumes Maverick's identity and appears in WX2 6. How can anyone with the Maverick identity be involved in Weapon X while the Professor is still around?? 

(BTW, in that same flashback in which Maverick appears with Weapon X, the Weapon Plus program is creating Weapon XIII (Fantomex), placing this before X 128.) 

One theory: For whatever reason, Maverick was involved in the Weapon X program much earlier than we've supposed. He may have left before Colcord took over (his name does appear with Sabretooth's on a list of "candidates" that Director Colcord holds in yet another WX2 23 flashback), and then appeared in the W2 arc that ended with his grave injury in W2 166, which in turn led right into his induction by Colcord, Jackson, and Sabretooth in Weapon X-Zero. 

Does this make sense? Should we conclude that Maverick was involved in the Weapon X program twice? Once under the Professor (as himself) and again under Colcord (as Zero)?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 May 2004 08:36 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

I must admit, I thought it was long established (or at least heavily implied) that Maverick was one of the other experimental subjects of the incarnation of Weapon X that was responsible for Wolverine and Sabretooth. Doesn't he mention somewhere in his early appearances that he somehow overcame the Weapon X memory implants?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 May 2004 10:26 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Yeah, Maverick was definitely a part of the original Weapon X program. Remember the "Team X" concept, in which he, Wolvie and Sabretooth would perform international espionage while dressed in yellow body armor? Remember the flashbacks in X #5-7? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 May 2004 10:58 am    
By Dhall

Not much to add here, except that it has been long established that Maverick was a product of the original Weapon X project, along with Wolverine, Sabretooth, John Wraith, Silver Fox, Mastodon, etc. 

This was back when "The Professor" was in charge of the program, and Colcord was a guard. 

While we'll have to think about the chronology of the flashback scenes in this issue, I saw nothing that violated what we already know about the project. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 May 2004 11:39 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Remember the "Team X" concept, in which he, Wolvie and Sabretooth would perform international espionage while dressed in yellow body armor?  
<<<


Team X was BEFORE Wolverine got into the Weapon X Project, though, wasn't it? He never actually worked as an agent of Weapon X - he was kidnapped by them, they gave him adamantium, he went nuts, he escaped while still nuts, and he didn't become lucid again until after James and Heather Hudson had found him.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 May 2004 12:28 pm    
By Dhall

Wolverine, Sabretooth, John Wraith, (and for a short time) Maverick all worked together as "Team X" (To my knowledge that name hasn't been used in a comic, but I may be wrong.) 

Sometime after Maverick quit, Wolverine also went his own way, and ended up at the Prophecy hotel, then was targted and captured by the Weapon X Program, under the direction of "The Professor." 

As far as I can rememeber, we don't know exactly how Sabretooth, Maverick and the others got dragged into the program. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 May 2004 09:06 pm    Post subject: Weapon X chronology
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I have to admit -- I've been exposed to bits and pieces of Weapon X history here and there, sometimes in comics I collected and sometimes in back issues -- and do recall now that Maverick was involved. Since so much of this history occurs in flashbacks that didn't unfold chronologically, I'm still a bit confused about the order of events and when in Marvel time they occurred. Does anyone have a handy Weapon X chronology list?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 May 2004 09:56 pm    
By Dhall

Part of the thing with Maverick, is that for the most part, his involvment with the old Weapon X program is implied, rather than shown on panel. We know that he's involved, because the other characters that were involved with the program know this and act like it, and say things that tell us he had to have been involved. (For example in the maverick one shot, Wraith refers to the weapon x facility as his and Maverick's "alma Mata" or in Wolverine 62-65 (the issues with Psi-Borg) Maverick is worried about something going wrong with their anti-aging factors. 

In Weapon X we are starting to see more straightforward stuff on the weapon x program, than we've ever been allowed to see. (I hope this continues, so that Weapon X will finally make some sense!) 

For background, I would start with Wolverine 48-50, and 60-65, and the Maverick one shot. ..... 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 May 2004 07:24 am    Post subject: Two Mavericks (and a ROM question)
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

So, the history of Weapon X is not making complete sense to someone else? I thought it was just me. 

On a related note, the Maverick we're discussing is actually Maverick II. The first Maverick was a crook (one of Stryker's men) whose one and only appearance was in ROM 2. I looked up ROM 2 in the MCP, but only a handful of characters are listed. The MCP listing does not include: 

Dr. Peters, Tempest II (Brandy's dog), Maverick I, Basher, Chief Rogers, Braddock II, Clara Knowles, Kevin Kraller, Dr. Daedalus, Rachel Sweet, General Sutherland, and Senator Carlisle. 

Is the MCP lacking complete character listings for ROM generally?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2004 07:18 am    Post subject: Maverick
By dimadick

Maverick's backstory and association with "Team X" are covered in greater detail in Maverick II #2 (October, 1997). See: http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=570

			*	*	*

Thread 31

Posted: 20 May 2004 03:49 am    Post subject: Doctor Strange and supporting cast
By Peter Fabricius

I have tested the program I mentioned in another thread, and found the following interesting things comparing Doctor strange with some of his supporting cast. 

SARA WOLFE 
... 
DRSTR2 63 
*DRSTR3 65 (should be DRSTR2 65) 
DRSTR2 66 
... 

I am fairly certain this is a typo, she is definetely not in DRSTR3 65. 
I don't have DRSTR2 65, but I presume she is in that one. 

--- 
DR. STRANGE II/STEPHEN STRANGE 
... 
DEF 71 
DEF 72 
DEF 73 
DEF 74 
DEF 75 
DEF 78 
DEF 79 
DEF 80 
DEF 81 
DEF 82 
DEF 83 
DEF 84 
DRSTR2 43 
DRSTR2 44 
... 

WONG 
... 
DRSTR2 43 
DRSTR2 44 
*DEF 71 
*DEF 78 
*DEF 80-BTS 
... 

I have neither the Doctor Strange issues, nor the Defenders issues, but unless one of them was engaged in timetravel, there is something wrong here. 
Presumably Stranges appearances are correct, so the 3 Defendes issues should be moved up before DRSTR2 43 on Wong's listing. 

--- 

CLEA 
... 
DRSTR2 42 
DRSTR2 43 
DRSTR2 44 
*DEF 70 
*DEF 71 
*DEF 72 
*DEF 73 
*DEF 74 
*DEF 75 
*DEF 78 
*DEF 80 
*DEF 84 
... 

DR. STRANGE II/STEPHEN STRANGE 
... 
DRSTR2 42 
DEF 69 
DEF 70 
DEF 71 
DEF 72 
DEF 73 
DEF 74 
DEF 75 
DEF 78 
DEF 79 
DEF 80 
DEF 81 
DEF 82 
DEF 83 
DEF 84 
DRSTR2 43 
DRSTR2 44 

Basically the same issues here, again I suggest moving DEF 70-84 up between DRSTR2 42 and 43 as in Strange's listing. 

--- 

CLEA 
... 
DRSTR2 45 
DRSTR2 46 
*DEF 85 
*M/FAN 5 
*M/FAN 8 
*DEF 89 
*DEF 92 
*DEF 93 
*DEF 94 
*DEF 95 
... 

DR. STRANGE II/STEPHEN STRANGE 
... 
DRSTR2 44 
UX@ 4 
CA 250 
DEF 85 
DEF 86 
DRSTR2 45 
M/FAN 5 
M/FAN 6/2 
M/FAN 8 
DEF 90 
ASM@ 14 
DEF 92 
DEF 93 
DEF 94 
DEF 95 
H@ 11 
DRSTR2 54-FB 
DRSTR2 46 
... 

More of the same, but here I have at least the M/FAN and some of the DEF issues, and Clea at least does not seem to be doing any time travel.  

I suggest moving DEF 85 to between DRSTR2 44 and 45, as in Doc's list, and M/FAN 5, M/FAN 8, DEF 89-95 to between DRSTR2 45 and 46. 

--- 
Finally we have this 

CLEA 
... 
DEF 103 
DRSTR2 54-FB 
*DRSTR2 46/2 
DRSTR2 47 
... 

DR. STRANGE II/STEPHEN STRANGE 
... 
DRSTR2 46 
DRSTR2 46/2 
DEF 96 
... 

Again, I don't have DRSTR2 46, but I find it unlikely that it occurs in different places in their chronology, so I suggest moving it to between DRSTR2 46 and DEF 98 in Clea's list. 

The flashback in DRSTR2 54 is also in different places in the two characters listings, being just before DRSTR2 46 in Doc's list, but this could be correct. However if anybody has the the issue, please check this. 


I know Doctor Strange was involved in timetravel in the story in DRSTR2 48-53, but if any of the above is also due to time travel, I apologize for the trouble.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2004 09:36 am    
By dimadick

DR. STRANGE II/STEPHEN STRANGE 
... 
DEF 71 
DEF 72 
DEF 73 
DEF 74 
DEF 75 
DEF 78 
DEF 79 
DEF 80 
DEF 81 
DEF 82 
DEF 83 
DEF 84 
DRSTR2 43 
DRSTR2 44 
... 

WONG 
... 
DRSTR2 43 
DRSTR2 44 
*DEF 71 
*DEF 78 
*DEF 80-BTS 
... 

I have neither the Doctor Strange issues, nor the Defenders issues, but unless one of them was engaged in timetravel, there is something wrong here. 
Presumably Stranges appearances are correct, so the 3 Defenders issues should be moved up before DRSTR2 43 on Wong's listing." 

There is also quite a difference in publication dates here. Defenders #70 - 83 featured more or less a single storyline published from April, 1979 to May, 1980. See:http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/unnameab.htm 

Defenders #84 was published in June, 1980. Doctor Strange #43 (October, 1980) and #44 (December, 1980) are a single storyline with Strange facing Shadowqueen/Shialmar, a sorceress formerly serving the N'Garai.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2004 09:36 am  
By dimadick

DR. STRANGE II/STEPHEN STRANGE 
... 
DEF 71 
DEF 72 
DEF 73 
DEF 74 
DEF 75 
DEF 78 
DEF 79 
DEF 80 
DEF 81 
DEF 82 
DEF 83 
DEF 84 
DRSTR2 43 
DRSTR2 44 
... 

WONG 
... 
DRSTR2 43 
DRSTR2 44 
*DEF 71 
*DEF 78 
*DEF 80-BTS 
... 

I have neither the Doctor Strange issues, nor the Defenders issues, but unless one of them was engaged in timetravel, there is something wrong here. 
Presumably Stranges appearances are correct, so the 3 Defenders issues should be moved up before DRSTR2 43 on Wong's listing." 

There is also quite a difference in publication dates here. Defenders #70 - 83 featured more or less a single storyline published from April, 1979 to May, 1980. See:http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/unnameab.htm 

Defenders #84 was published in June, 1980. Doctor Strange #43 (October, 1980) and #44 (December, 1980) are a single storyline with Strange facing Shadowqueen/Shialmar, a sorceress formerly serving the N'Garai.

			*	*	*

Thread 32

Posted: 08 May 2004 09:08 pm    Post subject: These new Handbooks...
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

A notorious piece of misinformation has slipped into the new "Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe - X-Men 2004". The Handbook alleges that Wolverine has a son, named Erista. 

This is something that's been up on Wolverine's bio at ComiX-Fan for over a year, and despites several posters questioning it -- and NOBODY being able to find any evidence to support it -- Eric Moreels hasn't bothered to either back it up or take it down. 

And now it's in an officially published Handbook. Hooray. 

In some other thread, we were discussing whether to use information from the Handbooks to plug holes and fill in gaps in plotlines. I believe the determination was that, as long as this new information didn't actively contradict anything from the books, we would accept it as canon. 

Now, telling us that Wolvie has a son named Erista doesn't actively CONTRADICT anything we've seen in the books. By that logic then, should we accept it as canon? 

I say thee nay. This is an example of one person's shoddy research being posted as fact, despite several ignored calls to authenticate it. This is an example of the folks at ComiX-Fan just cutting and pasting their own fan-made biographies into Marvel's book. 

And it bothers me deeply that anything postulated or added by *fans* could be allowed to be considered as canon as anything by Mark Gruenwald -- especially fans that routinely ignore any calls to back up their conclusions. 

As I did in the previous thread, I want to draw a serious distinction between the old Handbooks and these new ones. The old ones were written by Marvel staffers, Marvel editors, and Marvel employees -- people who, by the nature of their jobs, contribute to Marvel's creative output. The new ones are written by fans. 

And because of that, I don't believe that they should be included in the "assumption of canonicity" we've extended to the old books. 

Agree? Disagree? Anyone want to provide proof for Erista? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 12:49 am    
By John Simons

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
A notorious piece of misinformation has slipped into the new "Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe - X-Men 2004". The Handbook alleges that Wolverine has a son, named Erista. 

This is something that's been up on Wolverine's bio at ComiX-Fan for over a year, and despites several posters questioning it -- and NOBODY being able to find any evidence to support it -- Eric Moreels hasn't bothered to either back it up or take it down. 
<<<


Well, my intitial reaction is "what difference does it make?", that is, in terms of the MCP. Wolverine's chronology is his chronology whether he has a kid or not. 

But of course you are just using this as an example. Sometimes we do try to look to handbook info to support or explain stuff we don't understand in the comics. 

Before I jump on the bandwagon and agree with you that the new Handbooks are crap, maybe we should make sure there really is no Erista. A quick check of "Erista Wolverine" on Google groups found the following claim from Moreels from Usenet: 

"Wolverine had a son with a Savage Land native in the Wolverine: The Jungle Adventure graphic novel." 

Now does anyone have that book who can confirm or deny this? 

John!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 01:10 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I have that book. Wolverine has a CHILD with that Savage Land native, sure -- but the child's sex and name are never revealed. 

Believe me, I Googled "Erista" before posting this, too. The only comic references I could find on it were people quoting (and in some cases questioning) the information on ComiX-Fan. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 01:52 am    
By John Simons

Okay, let's assume for the sake of argument that Moreels made up the name Erista for Wolverine's lad. Once he does it in Marvel's employ and Marvel releases it in an Official Handbook, does it not become canon? The guys on the previous Handbooks did this a lot, filling in the blanks, creating names for alien species and such. It seems you find them more acceptable because they worked for Marvel for longer. Moreels was just a fan, but now he works for Marvel. I think there is precedent that he could create a name for Wolverine's kid if that information has not already been revealed in a comic.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 02:09 am    
By ShadZ

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Okay, let's assume for the sake of argument that Moreels made up the name Erista for Wolverine's lad. Once he does it in Marvel's employ and Marvel releases it in an Official Handbook, does it not become canon? 
<<<


Or, at least as cannon as the previous Handbooks. I agree.
_________________
ShadZ

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 02:11 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

1) Moreels didn't make up the name -- he is under the impression that it was actually revealed in a comic somewhere. 

2) This information was posted on X-Fan long before he was hired by Marvel to produce work for them. 

So, no. I don't consider it canon. And now this DOES affect the MCP -- because, if Moreels thinks he's naming the baby from Wolverine: the Jungle Adventure, it's the difference between us creating an "Erista" entry or not. 

I vote "not". Loudly. Mainly because Moreels can't or won't back up this "fact" that he "read somewhere". 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 04:20 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Tend to agree. Given that we know why it's in there - and we know there's no evidence whatsoever to support it - it's clearly a misreading of the stories and therefore ignorable.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 10:09 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

See this thread for some Erista goodness and insight. 
http://www.comicboards.com/xmb/view.php?trd=040508130023

The child's sex is based on a gross misreading of UX #353. The name? To this day, Eric doesn't know where he got it from -- BUT ITS REAL I SWEAR TO GOD. 

And he just won't listen to other folks' interpretation of the events. 

This is who we want filling in the gaps in continuity in future handbooks? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 10:24 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
1) Moreels didn't make up the name -- he is under the impression that it was actually revealed in a comic somewhere. 

2) This information was posted on X-Fan long before he was hired by Marvel to produce work for them. 
<<<
 

Not that I'm rushing to Eric's defense here, but we can't necessarily apply the same logic to Eric that we're applying to Mark Gruenwald. Mark was a HUGE fan before he worked for Marvel, but he simply didn't publish much that saw wide distribution. For all we know, he was doing the EXACT same thing Eric is/was doing and using his own ideas from years earlier to fill in the holes in some official capacity. Olshevsky essentially did the same thing: he began working on his chronologies before Marvel hired him and he lifted much of what he had done for the Indexes. 

We can't distinguish whether something is or isn't canon simply based on whether or not the idea in question was generated before or after someone worked for Marvel; in more cases than not, we don't know when an idea was conceived. I know John Byrne brought a lot of ideas that he had as a teenager to fruition once he began working for Marvel -- FF 236 being one of his more significant examples. The fact remains that Marvel still published the story and we must determine its canonicity (or lack thereof) against other published documents. 

The bottom line is that Marvel published that Wolverine has a son called Erista. If that's not contradicted anywhere and is presented as canon, there's no reason we shouldn't include it.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 10:34 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Yes, but Eric doesn't claim it to be his idea. He claims it to be something that already appeared in a published story. 

If he's wrong about that, then it's simply an error and can be ignored. And if he's right, then the Handbook doesn't change anything because it was already established. 

Since nobody else seems to be able to identify this mystery reference, I can only assume Eric's mistaken. If Eric was actually claiming it as a name that he'd invented (on the basis that the character plainly exists and needs to be called SOMETHING) then that would be a different situation.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 03:08 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Well, if this Eric fellow pulled the name out of thin air, when he thought that he had heard it somewhere else, then he still has in effect created the name. Just because he doesn't know where he got it from doesn't change the fact that it's out there now. I'm saying where the name comes from is inconsequential now. It's out there. 

It's still an employee of Marvel publishing a name for Wolverine's kid. And therefore, if we take these new handbooks as canon, then yes, we should post the name Erista in the MCP. But that's only IF we're taking these new handbooks as canon...and going by Sean's logic, we should...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 03:50 pm    Post subject: Wolverine *does* have a son
By Enda80

I refer you to Wolverine: The Jungle Adventure. In the last coupel of panels, Wolverine's son is seen. 

He mated with a Savage Land woman.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 03:52 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

What's your point? 


watching: birdman and the galaxy trio

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 03:56 pm    
By Enda80

Oh, sorry, you already hear about that.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 04:00 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
It's still an employee of Marvel publishing a name for Wolverine's kid. And therefore, if we take these new handbooks as canon, then yes, we should post the name Erista in the MCP. But that's only IF we're taking these new handbooks as canon...and going by Sean's logic, we should... 
<<<


I doubt that Eric's an employee of Marvel (unlike Mark Gruenwald), but that's neither here nor there. I can't help but think this is a hoax that Eric has attempted to pull on everyone. Many reference books--and it's to be expected, reference web sites--have deliberate false information in them. Dictionaries will have words that don't exist, to help protect their copyright. Any other dictionaries published with that word? Gotcha! 

I think Eric created this name out of whole cloth, and knows it. He has somehow swindled Marvel into including it in a reference book (and Marvel's reference books themselves have been known to include errors). His hoax will be completely successful when some unsuspecting Marvel writer uses it in a story. So far, it amounts to little more than fan fiction. 


watching: birdman and the galaxy trio

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 04:48 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I doubt that Eric's an employee of Marvel (unlike Mark Gruenwald), but that's neither here nor there.  
<<<


Lives in Australia, doesn't he? He's a fan who runs a site that numerous freelancers have become involved with. 

It wouldn't entirely surprise me if it was a hoax. The fact that the name includes "Eris" is always cause for suspicion, always assuming that Eric knows his Discordianism.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 05:07 pm  
By Dhall

Generaly speaking, I have never accepted teh theory that just because something is published in one of Marvel's reference guides that it is true, unless it has previously appeared in an actual comic. I know that many people on this site accept the original Marvel Handbook, and some of the Indexes as cannon, that there are other versions of the Handbook that no one considers as such. 

The real trick of course is if a subsequent writer picks up on material from a handbook and uses it in a story. Then and only then does it become cannon, as far as I am concerned. Until then, it is just published fan fic. 

I mean it's not like the original handbooks and indexes were completely error-free. Of course, here we are dealing with a case, where I suspect a deliberate error was made, but still. I haven't seen the index yet, but have seen the Wolverine profile on the X-Fan site. Does the handbook have Wolverine's brother listed as "Daniel Howlett" instead of the cannon John Howlett like on the COmoc-X Fan site? 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 05:10 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Now, it's been quite a while since I read Wolverine: The Jungle Adventure, but... is it even confirmed that Wolverine is actually the father of his lover's child? Or is it just implied by context? 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 05:10 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Dhall wrote: 
Does the handbook have Wolverine's brother listed as "Daniel Howlett" instead of the cannon John Howlett like on the COmoc-X Fan site? 


In fact, yes, it does. I rather wonder whether Marvel actually edited Eric's work for anything other than length and grammar. 

And god knows where Eric got that name from. John Howlett Jr's gravestone appears on panel in ORIGIN #2.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 05:29 pm    
By Dhall

Well then there is a mistake that is clearly non-cannon. And that certainly points to shoddy research, IMO. It's not too hard afterall to open up Origin #2, and check stuff like this. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 May 2004 01:20 am    
By Peter Fabricius

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Now, it's been quite a while since I read Wolverine: The Jungle Adventure, but... is it even confirmed that Wolverine is actually the father of his lover's child? Or is it just implied by context? 

-Sean 
<<<

I just checked the book, it is only implied. 
We clearly see she has the hots for him, and on the final page she is sitting with an infant. But there is no doubt in my mind that it is supposed to be his child.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 May 2004 09:17 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Let's take a minute to back away from this specific instance and look at what the MCP does. 

Our job is to analyze what Marvel publishes, determine it's degree of canonicity and, if it is determined to be canon, incorporate it into an overall chronology (separated by character) of the Marvel Universe. The general rule of thumb has been that everything Marvel publishes IS canon unless a) they specifically say it isn't, or b) it blatantly contradicts something that has already been determined to be canon. 

If you look at What If? #1, Roy Thomas uses what would become the letters page to talk about how the whole series is not canonical by design. Consequently, we don't really incorporate that series into the MCP. In the Official Handbook, Mark Gruenwald listed the Human Torch's full name as Jonathan Lowell Storm. However, John Byrne had just written an issue in which his sister calls him "Jonathan Spencer Storm." Here, there's a blatant contradiction and we must determine which carries more weight and is therefore canon. We've had that type of discussion and determined that the actual stories carry more clout than the Handbooks. But discounting that particular incident does not discount the entire set of Handbooks. 

Now if we apply that thinking here, we have a Marvel published story that implies Wolverine has a son. We have another Marvel published book that confrims that relationship and establishes a name for the character. Until and unless a Marvel story contradicts that somehow, then we have a character called Erista who is definitely Wolverine's son with one appearance to date. That there are errors in Eric's book and that he may have generated the name wholecloth do not discount that it was published by Marvel and it is not contradicted in any of their other publications. 

We can't discount Eric's work just because it was published by himself prior to being published by Marvel any more than we can discount fan fiction written by Busiek or Byrne or whomever that was later adapted for a "real" story. Cripes, the whole ressurection of Jean Grey from the bottom of the Hudson river was an idea from Kurt Busiek before he became a professional writer. The legal aspects of the Acts of Vengenance storyline in Fantastic Four were based on conversations Walt Simonson had with an online community of fans. The "flying bathtub" nickname for the original Fantasticar was from a fan who had one of their letters published. 

Our job is to address evident contradictions in what Marvel publishes and "streamline" the Marvel Universe. Unless it proves to be a particular problem/contradiction should we address the notions of how/when the idea was generated and what the author's intent was.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 May 2004 11:30 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

'Course, we could always take the *opposite* extreme, and take NOTHING from the Handbooks as canon here... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 May 2004 12:15 pm    
By Dhall

My preference, is to ignore the handbooks, and only use material from published stories. Otherwise where do you draw the line? Do we include material from press releases, promos, and other such sources because they are all published by Marvel? 


We clearly have to draw a line somewhere, or it becomes rediculous. 
I say draw the line with published stories. 

Dave H

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Posted: 10 May 2004 01:06 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

There's a significant difference between press releases and the Official Handbook (in whatever incarnation). Press releases are just that - promotional material. The Official Handbook exists for the express purpose of setting out Marvel's official version of history. 

It can, of course, be completely wrong on occasions. But where its interpretation of events is tenable, it is definitive - at least until something comes along to displace it. 

I would, however, be inclined to ignore entries which we know have been written erroneously. That's why Eric's attempt to name Wolverine's son fails. It isn't an attempt to interpret an ambiguity. It's simply an inaccurate recollection of what's been in print.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 May 2004 03:33 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
The Official Handbook exists for the express purpose of setting out Marvel's official version of history. 
<<<


Paul, regarding the old Official Handbooks, I would agree with you about that being the purpose. I am not sure (and I haven't seen the material in question yet, though I have seen the source material on X-Fan) that the purpose of the new one isn't just a glorified press release, for sales purposes. (Here is Reload, Here our important characters.) If it was meant to be "Marvel's official version of history" like the old handbooks were meant to be, I think they would have gotten a Marvel staffer to write it, and perhaps (at the least) have checked the facts. 

Regardless of it being a Marvel publication, it seems to be one fan's version of Marvel History. As it seems that Marvel could not be bothered to check the factual accuracy of this publication, it doesn't seem to me like they are considering it official. 

Again, though this is my opinion. Everyone is going to have a different take on the issue. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 May 2004 04:27 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Me, I'm liking Peter Luzifer's argument over on that comicboards thread that these books should be a secondary source, a method of summing up the primary sources only -- not a source unto themselves. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 May 2004 04:35 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
It can, of course, be completely wrong on occasions. But where its interpretation of events is tenable, it is definitive - at least until something comes along to displace it. 

I would, however, be inclined to ignore entries which we know have been written erroneously. That's why Eric's attempt to name Wolverine's son fails. It isn't an attempt to interpret an ambiguity. It's simply an inaccurate recollection of what's been in print. 
<<<

I'd be very leary of this approach. You're essentially getting into author intent, which is at best ambiguous. John Byrne didn't intend to have Johnny Storm hook up with a Skrull; he intended him to hook up with the Thing's long-time girlfriend. Does his intent then supercede Tom Defalco's change of direction when he revealed that "Alicia" had really been a Skrull all along? Steve Ditko intended the Green Goblin to be an entirely unknown person that no one had heard of; does that supercede Stan Lee's eventual revealing that the Green Goblin was in fact Norman Osborne? The first appearance of Apocalypse was actually written and drawn as The Owl (in shadows). Does that intent mean that Apocalypse and The Owl are one and the same? 

See where I'm getting at? It's just a really dangerous slope if you allow intent to dictate canonicity. 


Dhall wrote: 
>>>
If it was meant to be "Marvel's official version of history" like the old handbooks were meant to be, I think they would have gotten a Marvel staffer to write it, and perhaps (at the least) have checked the facts. 

Regardless of it being a Marvel publication, it seems to be one fan's version of Marvel History. As it seems that Marvel could not be bothered to check the factual accuracy of this publication, it doesn't seem to me like they are considering it official. 
<<<

Big difference betweeen the two. The original Handbooks were conceived and designed quite literally as creator handbooks, so that everyone knew where a character was developmentally. This was spearheaded almost entirely by Mark Gruenwald, who was, by all accounts, borderline obsessive with continuity. These were checked by an editor (Mark) who knew this stuff backwards, and could recite most of it off the top of his head. The new Handbooks were spearheaded from a marketing perspective in an effort to get the character names wider prominence in traditional bookstores. There is no one in place currently that has Gru's knowledge at their fingertips -- even fount-of-knowledge Tom Brevoort claims to only know a small fraction of what Gru knew. Plus, there's an additional 20 years of books (or so) that have been published in the interm. There's almost no way anyone could possibly check each and every fact throughout those books. 

That being said, the new Handbooks were written no differently than most stories are today. They're farmed out to freelancers with a finite knowledge of MU history. Some of them double check their materials in some capacity, but that's not always the case. Paul Jenkins and Brian Michael Bendis play notoriously fast and loose with continuity -- have you tried getting Sentry into continuity? Good grief! 

The upshot is that Marvel paid somebody to write material for them. Whether that's The Amazing Spider-Man or a new Handbook, it's out there in some official capacity, and I say we need to treat it as such.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 May 2004 05:46 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
That being said, the new Handbooks were written no differently than most stories are today. They're farmed out to freelancers with a finite knowledge of MU history. Some of them double check their materials in some capacity, but that's not always the case. Paul Jenkins and Brian Michael Bendis play notoriously fast and loose with continuity -- have you tried getting Sentry into continuity? Good grief! 
<<<


That responsibility would fall into the lap of the editor, at least as much as that of the writer. 

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
The upshot is that Marvel paid somebody to write material for them. Whether that's The Amazing Spider-Man or a new Handbook, it's out there in some official capacity, and I say we need to treat it as such. 
<<<


Marvel paid John Byrne to write Spider-Man: Chapter One, and I don't remember anyone here losing sleep over declaring that non-canon. 


watching: city confidential

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 May 2004 06:40 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Marvel paid John Byrne to write Spider-Man: Chapter One, and I don't remember anyone here losing sleep over declaring that non-canon. 
<<<


To be fair, if you'd asked me about it at the time it came out, I'd have agonized about it. It was clearly INTENDED as a retcon, but it was poorly received and a conscious decision was obviously taken to run a couple of stories which deliberately ran flashbacks to the original version of Spider-Man's origin in order to discredit it. (Of course, this in turn raises questions as to the canonicity of that Mackie/Byrne Spider-Man story which works on the assumption that Spider-Man and Dr Octopus share an origin!) 

As things presently stand, it's quite clear that CHAPTER ONE is not canon, because Marvel have gone out of their way to discredit it. But at the time it came out? I would have been arguing for it supplanting the original stories, that being the clear intention of Marvel at the relevant time. With reluctance, because the book was terrible. But we can't judge canonicity on the basis of quality, otherwise we'd lose half the 1990s...
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 11 May 2004 10:10 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
That responsibility would fall into the lap of the editor, at least as much as that of the writer. 
<<<


True. Again, though, Mark Gruenwald was an extreme exception in terms of continuity editing. Tom Brevoort probably comes as close as anyone to Gru in that regard, and he's fully admitted to not being able to catch everything. Time/workload, pre-existing inconsistences, and simple human error allow some things to fall through the cracks and become unintentionally canon. 

Marvel is (or at least traditionally has been) a publisher. It's up to the publisher to say what is or is not canon. Martin Goodman deferred this to Stan Lee. Stan eventually deferred that to the revolving door editor-in-chief. Thet chemcial corp. (can't recall the name offhand) deferred to Jim Shooter... The upshot is that Marvel is still paying people to create what is or isn't canon, whether that's an on-staff editor or a freelance writer. 

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Marvel paid John Byrne to write Spider-Man: Chapter One, and I don't remember anyone here losing sleep over declaring that non-canon. 
<<<


I'm going to go back to my earlier post on this one... 
SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
The general rule of thumb has been that everything Marvel publishes IS canon unless a) they specifically say it isn't, or b) it blatantly contradicts something that has already been determined to be canon.  
<<<


I've added the emphasis. 

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 01:06 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I woulda emphasized B there. Did Marvel ever specifically SAY "Chapter One" was non-canon? Or are we just inferring that from stories in books published later? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 03:21 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Marvel is (or at least traditionally has been) a publisher 
<<<


Actually, they make almost all of their money through liscensing. 
Publishing is a very small part of Marvel's business these days. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 03:33 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

"Almost all" is a bit of an exaggeration, but only slightly. The licensing division brings in around 75% of Marvel's operating income. Another 12-13% is the toy division. The remainder is publishing.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 04:23 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I woulda emphasized B there. Did Marvel ever specifically SAY "Chapter One" was non-canon? Or are we just inferring that from stories in books published later? 
<<<


Actually, they did. There was a big stink at the time because they initially said (before the book came out) that this was the NEW continuity. They took a lot of heat for that, and publicly backpeddled, saying that it was just a reintreptation. 

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
"Almost all" is a bit of an exaggeration, but only slightly. The licensing division brings in around 75% of Marvel's operating income. Another 12-13% is the toy division. The remainder is publishing. 
<<<

... which is why I said they were traditionally a publisher.  They formally changed to a licensing agency in 2003. (I think. I'd have to double check their press releases.) Regardless, they still do publish the material and it remains the publisher's perogative to determine what is or isn't canon. Often that authority is passed to the editor-in-chief, who often passes that down to the individual editors. But the point is that it works it's way DOWN the ladder, not up.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 May 2004 04:34 pm    
By Dhall

Still haven't picked this handbook up yet, but a poster on the comic-x fan site said that the handbook says that Jean Luc Lebeau is deceased. (He's not.) 

I find it hard to attach any level of credibility to this book, based solely from other people's comments. When my copy actually arrives it will be interesting to compare it to the real comics. Has anyone made up an errata list for this book yet? 

By the way Eric Moreels posted on the comic X-fan board. He still hasn't been able to find an refernce for "Erista" but refuses to retract his claim that this is from a source other than himself. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2004 12:32 pm    
By PeteD

I cannot comment on Spider-Man:Chapter One, haven't read it, but as for the Handbook I wouldn't have thought a reference work was in any way canon, only a report of canon material previously published. 

Errors from any reference work need to be highlighted (as per the deliberate dictionary example earlier) and from there the reference material can be used by those who need to use it. 

The only difference with the new handbook to George Olshevsky's books or any other unofficial history/chronology/directory or whatever is that Marvel publishes it. 

I wouldn't use Erista, or comment on the baby even being Wolvie's until canon material proves the facts as such.

			*	*	*

Thread 33

Posted: 21 May 2004 09:39 pm    Post subject: More content for Spidey's origin?
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

In this week's ASM 507, we see a flashback to the fateful day that Peter was bitten by the radioactive spider. There is no dialog in this flashback, but there may be new visuals to organize in and among panels in AF 15 and PPTSS 60/2. Does anyone with both AF 15 and PPTSS 60 want to check on this? Is there new content, and if so, is it worthwhile to add? 

BTW, a boy who looks suspiciously like Harry Osborn appears here, but it can't be him. Unlike the movie, the comics don't have Peter and Harry meeting until college. 

There is also a montage of flashbacks within this flashback in ASM 507 that show Peter getting picked on and ridiculed in school on various occasions. I suppose these need to be added to Peter's earlier chronology. 

Thoughts?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Posted: 21 May 2004 08:32 am    Post subject: Juggernaut Addition
By Enda80

I thought that flashback in Avengers West Coast#64 would be unplaceable. However, there are clues that help in its placement. 

For those who do not remember, that story featured a little boy named Stevie with the Ruby of Cyttorak. It was explained that the ruby returned to Earth when Nova, in Excalibur#25, bumped it out of orbit. So that flashback in Avengers West Coast#64 must take place after Excalibur#25. 

Avengers West Coast#64 was published in November 1990. In Thor#411, the Juggernaut was sent into space, and he did not to my knowledge return to Earth till after Thor#429, published in January 1991. 

So apparently, the best place to put that AWC 64 fb would be; 

JUGGERNAUT/CAIN MARKO 
XCAL 3 
**AWC 64-fb 
T 411 
CA 366 
T 411 
T 412 
S-H2 29-BTS 
T 428 
T 429 
XFOR 2 
XFOR 3 
S-M 16 
XFOR 4 
XFOR 5 

Can anyone think of any objections to this placement?

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 May 2004 11:06 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Can anyone think of any objections to this placement? 
<<<

Yeah -- in Thor #411, the Juggernaut is still imprisoned in Crossmoor -- the BRITISH prison where we last saw him in EXCAL #3. 

The story behind the flashback was that this AMERICAN kid found the ruby -- and helped the HULK defeat the Juggernaut. The Hulk doesn't get to England much, and I doubt this kid does either. And it's unlikely that the Juggernaut could have escaped Crossmoor, come to America, been defeated, and shipped back to England for incarceration. 

The trouble is -- Juggernaut *doesn't* come back to Earth in Thor #429. He remains trapped in another dimension until X-Force #2 ... and I doubt we can place this flashback, and then the whole of AWC #64, after that point. 

The only OTHER option is to decide that the "Excalibur #25" reference is incorrect, and place Nova's accidental bumping of the Ruby of Cytorrak at an earlier point. 

Any likely slots? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 May 2004 12:40 am    
By david

Quote: 
>>>
Yeah -- in Thor #411, the Juggernaut is still imprisoned in Crossmoor -- the BRITISH prison where we last saw him in EXCAL #3. 
<<<


That's true for pages 1-3 of that issue but on page 4 panel 4 onwards he finds out he's in New York and stays there until he's sent into space at the end of issue 412! 

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 May 2004 03:46 am    
By SeanCurtin

Good point. Juggernaut's run-in with Stevie and the Hulk can fit between pages 4 & 5; everything from page 5 panel 1 to the end of #412 is pretty much continuous. Problem solved! 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 May 2004 11:41 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I don't know if that works either. In AWC #64, Cap and the Torch are lured to an abandoned amusement park in the *Midwest*, that's close enough to the kid's house for him to walk to. 

So unless that kid was randomly in NYC, with the Ruby of Cytorrak, at the same time as the Juggernaut happened to pop up, I'm guessing that the battle in the flashback occured in the Midwest. (I'm also guessing that Juggy was lured there by the emanations of the ruby.) 

So, it couldn't occur between pp.4-5 of Thor #411.  

(Plus -- what was the Hulk up to in this time period? As far as I know, during the time of Thor #411 [Acts of Vengeance], he was grey and living in -- you guessed it -- the Midwest. The only time he was in NYC during that period was ASM #328. It seems to make a lot more sense to place this battle in the Midwest than in NYC.) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 35

Posted: 22 May 2004 05:57 pm    Post subject: Cyclops - origin
By Dhall

While reviewing UO 1 for cannonicity, I noticed some other problems with Scott's listing. 


There is no such thing as UX 39/2-FB. Scott appears in some non-flashback scenes which occur after his app. in UX 38/2-FB. 
Yes, these probably happen before the events of UX 38/2, but that doesn't make them a flashback (Especially since Scott isn't in 38/2.) 

Scott does NOT appear in UX 38/2 (only in it's already placed) flashback. 

So: 
CYCLOPS II/SCOTT SUMMERS 
UX 156-FB 
UX 144-FB 
UX 114-FB 
UX 156-FB 
UX 144-FB 
XF 115-FB 
XF 39-FB 
XF 35-FB 
CX 41/2 
CX 42/2 
UX 38/2-FB 
(UX 39/2-FB) Remove, no such fb. 
(UX 38/2) Remove, Scott does not appear in this story. 
UX 39/2 
UX 40/2 
UX 41/2 
UX 42/2 
UX 309-FB-BTS 
UX 42/2 

Additional listings: 

Dr. Robyn Hanover 
CX 41/2 
CX 42/2 

Rails, Toby 
CX 41/2 

Bogart, Rick 
CX 42/2 

Bogart, Trish 
CX 42/2 

JACK O'DIAMONDS 

**UX 40/2-FB 
UX 39/2 
UX 40/2 
UX 41/2 
UX 42/2 
S-H2 34 
S-H2 35 

Also, we'll need to add a listing for Kate Ann Summers. I'll write one up. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 May 2004 03:41 pm    Post subject: Katherine Anne Summers and Corsair
By Dhall

Does Alex and Scott's mom (Corsair's wife) have no MCP listing? 

I cannot find Katherine Anne Summers in the MCP. IS she listed under something else? 

Dave H

Last edited by Dhall on 22 May 2004 07:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 May 2004 05:11 pm
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Is she listed under something else? 
<<<

"Wormfood". 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 May 2004 07:23 pm    
By Dhall

CORSAIR 

. . .*CX 15/2-FB (5p3) 
. . .UX 156-FB (10p4-7) 
. . .UX 144-FB (12p5) 
. . .*CX 15/2-FB (6p2) 
. . .UX 114-FB 
. . .UX 156-FB 

. . .UX 154-FB (flying the plane) 
**UX 156-FB (11p4  teleported to Shiar ship) 
**CX 15/2-FB (6p3) (on Shi'ar ship, Dken gloats, as he forces Chris and Kate to watch their sons parachute on fire) 

. . .UX 156-FB (on a Shi'ar planet, Christopher escapes and goes to find his wife) 
**CX 15/2-FB (6p4) Dkens guards zap Christopher. Dken and Kate are present. This is before Dken kills Kate) 
**UX 156-FB (Dken stabs Kate) 
. . .UX 154-FB 
. . .UX 108-FB 

. . .*(UX 391-FB) --- entry should be moved to after CX 15/2 
. . .**(XF 115-FB ) should be removed (Corsair and Kate only appear in this fb before the plane crashes, and this material is the same as other previously seen scenes) 
. . .CX 15/2 
. . .*UX 391-FB --- relocated from current position. CX 15/2 is where Christopher Summers meets and joins the other Starjammers. The UX 391-FB follows, according to Corsair  It wasnt long after I started the Starjammers 
. . .UX 104 


(oh, for the record CX 15/2-fb (6p5) is the same as UX 154-Fb panel 3 so I didnt list it.) 

The * corrections were already posted by Arthur, see his earlier post 
CYCLOPS II...DAGDA...LIONEL DIBBS 

**Are new corrections by me. 

All New Listing: 

Katherine Ann Summers 
CX 15/2-FB (5p3) 
UX 156-FB (10 p4-7) 
UX 144-FB (12p5) 
CX 15/2-FB (6p2) 
UX 144-FB (11p1) 
UX 114-FB 
UX 156-FB 
UX 154-FB 
UX 156-FB 
CX 15/2-FB 
UX 156-FB 
UX 154-FB 
UX 108-FB 


D'KEN [SHI'AR] 
**(UX 154-FB) remove, incorrect 
**(UX 156-FB) remove, incorrect 
**(CX 15/2-FB) remove, incorrect 
UX 156-FB-BTS 
UX 144-FB-BTS 
UX 114-FB-BTS 
**CX 15/2-FB (6p3 Dken gloats, as he forces Kate and Chris to watch their sons parachute on fire.) 
**CX 15/2-FB (6p4) (Dken watches, as his guards blast Christopher. Kate is present.) (Yes for listing purposes, well put CX 15/2 once, but for description purposes, Im listing the two fbs seperatly.) 
**UX 156-FB-(BTS) Actual App., Not BTS! (Dken stabs Kate) 
UX 154-FB 
UX 108-FB 
**(CX 15/2-FB) Remove, same panel as UX 108-FB 
CX 14/2 
**(CX 15/2-FB) Remove, this is incorrect. 
UX 107-FB 
UX 106-FB-BTS 


Dave H

			*	*	*

Thread 37

Posted: 20 May 2004 12:01 am    Post subject: Captain America (vol. 4) #26
By Andy Holcombe

This issue is a mess. 

Bucky's real name is now Michael. 

I can overlook the story Bucky gives Colonel Price about suspecting Rogers as Captain America. It might even be more realistic than the original story. Certainly, it provides a rational explaination where none previously existed. On the other hand, Bucky could be lying about how he discovered that Rogers is Cap. 

Bucky's final mission. 
I'm not knowledgeable enough about the events leading up to Bucky's death, but this recap didn't feel right to me. Maybe I'm just looking for reasons to not like this run (or the current volume as a whole, with the exception of the Dave Gibbons/Lee Weeks arc).

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2004 08:38 am    Post subject: Bucky
By dimadick

"Bucky's real name is now Michael." 

Bucky's real name has been established as James Buchanan Barnes in clear reference to James Buchanan, 15th President of the United States (1791 - 1868, term 1857 - 1861). Apparetly the new writer missed the reference. 

Not much of a difference. Michael is at worst a mistake due to poor research and at best a new addittion to the name. "James Michael Buchanan Barnes" or "Michael James Buchanan Barnes"? 

"I can overlook the story Bucky gives Colonel Price about suspecting Rogers as Captain America." 

Is this Colonel Walker Price, introduced in the recent retconn Truth: Red, White and Black (January - June, 2003) ? 

"Bucky's final mission." 

His final moments are covered in Avengers I #56 (September, 1968). See: http://members.aol.com/ojerasmus/av56.html 

How does this compare to the new version?

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2004 05:17 pm 
By Andy Holcombe

dimadick wrote: 
>>>
Not much of a difference. Michael is at worst a mistake due to poor research and at best a new addittion to the name. "James Michael Buchanan Barnes" or "Michael James Buchanan Barnes"? 
<<<


I was just mentioning it. Of course it can be explained as sloppy research. But if writer Robert Morales can't even be bothered to check the names of his characters, what else has he not checked. 


dimadick wrote: 
>>>
Andy Holcombe wrote: 
>>>
"I can overlook the story Bucky gives Colonel Price about suspecting Rogers as Captain America." 
<<<


Is this Colonel Walker Price, introduced in the recent retconn Truth: Red, White and Black (January - June, 2003) ? 
<<<


Probably. The writer is the same person. 

dimadick wrote: 
>>>
Andy Holcombe wrote: 
>>>
"Bucky's final mission." 
<<<


His final moments are covered in Avengers I #56 (September, 1968). See: http://members.aol.com/ojerasmus/av56.html 

How does this compare to the new version? 
<<<



In this issue, Cap and Bucky are cleaning a warehouse, waiting for an attempt on the drone plane. They he sounds of a conflict, get on a motorcycle, get shot at by nameless goons that one must assume are Nazis, and jump on the plane. Both Cap and Bucky are on the plane when it explodes. No Baron Zemo, no robots, no plain clothes, not captured and tied to the drone. 

Maybe this arc (if not volume) and The Truth: Red, White, and Black exist on Earth-Morales

Last edited by Andy Holcombe on 21 May 2004 07:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2004 05:32 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
In this issue, Cap and Bucky are cleaning a warehouse, waiting for an attempt on the drone plane. They he sounds of a conflict, get on a motorcycle, get shot at by nameless goons that one must assume are Nazis, and jump on the plane. Both Cap and Bucky are on the plane when it explodes. 
<<<

That sure sounds like the version originally presented in Avengers #4. And in Dimadick's link, it should be noted that Cap and Bucky, while briefly tied to the drone plane, both get untied -- so in all three: Avengers #4, 56, and this new retelling -- nobody's tied to the drone-jet as it takes off. 

I don't think this retelling is as divergent as you think it is. The "cleaning the warehouse" bit could come just before the bit in A #56 where they jump through the window and are captured -- the rest could come after they're freed, syncing up with A #4 and #56. 

I wouldn't sweat it. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2004 10:00 pm    
By Ron Flick

In my opinion, the scene with the drone plane in the recent Cap issue could easily be considered an abbreviated or abridged version of what has been shown many times in the past. The primary problem, however, is Cap and Bucky wearing their costumes, rather than their military uniforms. I don't think it was an attempt to rewrite Cap's history (as was the case with the earlier attempt in issue 17)...just a major goof-up. In fact, the dialogue between Cap and Bucky as the plane explodes is very similar to dialogue shown in past issues. 

I agree wholeheartedly that it would be nice if the writers and editors would take a little time to do the proper research.... 

Ron Flick

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2004 10:30 pm    
By scott

Is anyone else disturbed by the recent art in this book? The bulbous noses and huge popeye forearms? I keep hoping for a new artist... 

Not to mention how the writing has weakened. You want a REAL lack of research? How about that scene early in this latest story arc, when the car Cap was riding in came under attack and he grabbed a soldiers gun and began shooting at the bad guys... What the Hell was that? Cap doesn't use a gun!! 

I have much higher hopes for the new Priest Cap and Falcon book than this current Cap title.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 May 2004 08:24 am    
By Ant-Man

Andy Holcombe wrote: 
>>>
I was just mentioning it. Of course it can be explained as sloppy research. But if writer Mark Morales can't even be bothered to check the names of his characters, what else has he not checked. 
<<<



Hey now! Let's be fair...the writer that you're referring to is ROBERT Morales. Mark is an inker, and a very nice guy...drop him a line at this forum: http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=355

Last edited by Ant-Man on 21 May 2004 01:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 May 2004 11:09 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

It's funny that a guy complaining that the writer got a character's name wrong ... got the writer's name wrong. 

:smile:

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 May 2004 07:02 pm 
By Andy Holcombe

Oops. I shall edit my post to reflect this.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 May 2004 07:05 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
It's funny that a guy complaining that the writer got a character's name wrong ... got the writer's name wrong. 
<<<
 


A great case for a return to editors actually editing. Of course, we certainly don't want to return to those halcyon days of editors writing the books and attaching somebodies name as a scripter.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 May 2004 03:59 am    Post subject: Steve Rogers the Immortal?
By dimadick

"Both Cap and Bucky are on the plane when it explodes." 

Shouldn't they be both dead then? Or does the Super Soldier serum protect Steve from turning to pieces during an explosion? By the way the "Lyle Dekker" storyline covered the events between the death of Bucky over the English Cnannel and Rogers' suspended animation in the Arctic cycle. Have any recent retconns questioned them yet?: 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/ameridrd.htm

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 May 2004 09:15 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
"Both Cap and Bucky are on the plane when it explodes." 

Shouldn't they be both dead then? Or does the Super Soldier serum protect Steve from turning to pieces during an explosion?  
<<<


Both Cap and Bucky were on the drone plane, but Cap slipped off and fell just moments before the bomb exploded with Bucky still clinging to the plane.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 38

Posted: 20 May 2004 11:03 pm    Post subject: When does a supporting character become relevant?
By scott

Obviously a character like J. Jonah Jameson or the Avengers butler Jarvis has played a role in the Marvel Universe, but what about the characters that only impact a single book? Someone like Luke Cage's friend D.W. Griffith? He made it in. What determines when a character has made it? I mean it looked like this Agent Driver was going to become important in the current Daredevil series, but after a half-dozen or so appearances, he's apparently been killed, so will he find a place in here? I'm just trying to see the boundries...

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2004 11:19 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Short answer: everyone gets in. 

The only people we intentionally leave out are un-named characters or characters only known by first name. However, if they become hugely relevant supporting characters (like Crystal), they get in anyway. 

If we've left someone out -- "relevant" or not -- just send us a chronology write-up for them and in they go. 

Agent Driver will be added to the MCP. By the way, thanks for spoiling his fate for me ... grrrr.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2004 11:28 pm
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
The only people we intentionally leave out are un-named characters or characters only known by first name. However, if they become hugely relevant supporting characters (like Crystal), they get in anyway. 
<<<


Crystal's her codename, though (yes, it's also her real name, but that's not the point). A better example would be Peter Parker's old neighbors Randi, Candi and Bambi. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 May 2004 08:07 am    Post subject: Crystal has a last name
By Enda80

Crystalia Amaquelin Maximoff is her full name per Official Handbook.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 May 2004 11:08 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

And the "Official Handbook's added information" argument begins again.  

Was it ever stated in a comic book? 

-Jeph!, nitpicking for the sake of it

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 May 2004 03:10 pm    Post subject: Jeph, she married Quicksilver
By Enda80
	
whose real name is Pietero Maximoff. Hence, Cyrstal Maximoff.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 May 2004 03:37 pm    
By Dhall

What's her maiden name? <just causing trouble for the heck of it.> 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 May 2004 06:28 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Crystal Amaquelin is her maiden name. "Amaquelin" means offspring of "Quelin," Crystal's father.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 May 2004 07:21 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

John, was it ever explicitly stated that she *took Quicksilver's last name?* Lots of married women either keep their own name or hyphenate (Watson-Parker, Grey-Summers). 

Heck, did he even consider his last name to BE Maximoff at that point? There was a time in there when he was "Pietro Frank". 

Plus, aren't they separated now? Might she not have gone back to her maiden name? 

All I'm saying is -- sure, the Handbook says what it thinks her name is. But what have the comics said? 

Primary sources are always nice. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 May 2004 04:14 am    Post subject: Amaquelin
By dimadick

" "Amaquelin" means offspring of "Quelin," Crystal's father." " 

Before Jeph starts a debate on the canonicity of Quelin and the possible meaning and origin of her name, one could note that the Project already lists Crystal's sister as "Medusa/Medusalith Amaquelin". Presumably the two sisters share the same last name.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 May 2004 11:00 am  
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Pre ... zoo ... ma ... blee? 

What is this word? :wink:


No, see, here's what I'm getting at. I've been told what the HANDBOOK says Crystal's last name is -- and now I've been told what the *MCP* says Medusa's last name is, and therefore is probably also Crystal's last name. 

But I haven't yet been told WHAT THE COMICS SAY. 

Like I say -- quoting primary sources is always the best way to go here. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 39

Posted: 13 Mar 2004 04:07 pm    Post subject: Dracula in FF III#36...probably not
By Scathach80

I see that Dracula is listed as appearing in a flashback in FF III#36. I even found online a scan of the panel where Dracula is supposed to appear. 

http://www.comicboards.com/fantasticfour/attachments/040310012849/FF36Dracula.jpg 

However, it would be very strange if that were Dracula. Because Diablo was born in 9th Century Spain, while Dracula didn't get his powers until the 15th Century. I guess Diablo had to wait 6 centuries to learn how to extend his lifespan?

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 May 2004 05:35 pm    Post subject: Mephisto in FF III#36, not Dracula
By Enda80

Actually, it is Mephisto, not Dracula, in FF III#36. 
http://www.comicboards.com/fantasticfour/attachments/040310012849/FF36Dracula.jpg 

Unless you were referring to a different panel, of course.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 May 2004 06:27 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Are you seriously having a conversation with yourself?! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 40

Posted: 24 May 2004 10:22 am    Post subject: Turk in DD I#181?
By Enda80

In Daredevil#181, a black man resembling Turk was seen in Ryker's 
Island prison when the Punisher went over to speak to Bullseye. This 
black man, at first not recognizing the Punisher, told him to stay 
away from Bullseye, but upon recognizing the Punisher, ran away. I 
am not sure if this was supposed to be Turk. I guess it could be, 
since Turk was seen in Ryker's in Daredevil#182. 

If it was Turk, then 

DD 178 
DD 180 
**DD 181 
DD 182 
DD 185 
DD 186

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 May 2004 02:48 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

I'm pretty certain that Frank Miller intended this to be Turk, since in #181 he has a bandage on the cheek, where Daredevil hit Turk in #180. 

The appearance is however not listed in Olshevsky's Marvel Comics Index 9B, but DD#181 is the last issue in the index, so it may not have been so thorougly checked as the earlier issues. 

Just noticed that the guy 'Turk' in #181 is with, looks suspiciously like Grotto, who is also in DD#180 & 182, so this should also be added to his listing, if he had one. 

Maybe I should submit one....
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Thread 41

Posted: 25 May 2004 10:04 am    Post subject: Venom, full name
By Peter Fabricius

Web of Spider-Man Annual gives Venom's full name as Edward Charles Brock. 

I admit I have not gone through my entire collection of Spider-Man and Venom comics to check if it has ben retracted since. 

So his name should be listed as 

VENOM/EDWARD CHARLES 'EDDIE' BROCK
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2004 10:08 am    
By Peter Fabricius

The idiot who wrote the above didn't proofread it. 

It is Web of Spider-Man Annual 7 from 1991. 

The relevant story was written by David Michelinie, who also wrote Venoms first major appearance in Amazing Spider-Man #299-300.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2004 12:57 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Peter, 

Rather than posting a reply to correct a minor error, it's usually better to simply edit your original message. The button is to the upper right of the message. 


watching: cnn headline news

			*	*	*

Thread 42

Posted: 25 May 2004 09:50 am    Post subject: Within Our Reach; Canonical?
By Enda80

Within Our Reach, a one-shot from Star*Reach, featured an authorized by Marvel Spider-Man story by Roy and Dann Thomas. Should it be considered canonical?

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2004 03:09 pm    
By Dhall

What do you mean by authorized? 

Lot's of times publications are authorized by Marvel and are not cannon, (not ruling either way on this particular case, here, mind you.) 

Also not everything that Marvel publishes itself is cannon. 

Perhaps you could give us some more details about the comic. Was it a giveaway, a benefit, or something of the like? Does it appear to be a cannonical story? What are the details of the story? When was it published? 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2004 03:15 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

As David says, we need to know more about the book. Hostess adverts are "authorised by Marvel", for example.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 43

Posted: 25 May 2004 05:48 pm    Post subject: Question about names?
By Jason Doty

When a character changes their hero name should'nt they be listed by that? 

Prime examples would be: 
Angel to Death to Archangel 
Invisible Girl to Invisible Woman 
Scarlet Spider to Spider-man II 
Sprite to Ariel to Shadowcat 
Captain America to Captain to Captain America 
Captain America(#) to US Agent To Captain America(#) 
Iron Man II to War Machine 

I noticed for some characters you do this and some you don't. 
My question is why some and not the others?

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Posted: 25 May 2004 07:44 pm    
By Starman

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Scarlet Spider to Spider-man II 
<<<


Sorry to be nit-picking, but shouldn't it be even more, like this: 
Spider-Man clone, or Peter Parker clone, then Ben Reilly to Scarlet Spider to Spider-Man II. 

- Starman the Nerd strikes again!    

P.S. But yes, I see your point. It would be a bit more difficult to follow some character's chronology on the MCP with all those links one has to follow, but it would be nice to be able to follow the changes the character makes.
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

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Posted: 25 May 2004 10:18 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I noticed for some characters you do this and some you don't. 
My question is why some and not the others? 
<<<


It's a judgement call, and you can't challenge a judgement call. I'm a little league umpire, so I can get away with that. 

The decision to split a chronology between two different names is based on the significance of the character under each name. It's a feeling that I get. Of the ones you mention, the only one that jumps out at me that isn't split and probably should be is Invisible Girl/Woman. 

Starman wrote: 
>>>
P.S. But yes, I see your point. It would be a bit more difficult to follow some character's chronology on the MCP with all those links one has to follow, but it would be nice to be able to follow the changes the character makes. 
<<<


It's not our charter to follow the changes that a character makes. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Thread 44

Posted: 23 May 2004 02:32 pm    Post subject: Emma Frost
By Dhall

Has anyone nailed down exactly where the Emma Frost series takes place in X-Men chronology, or more to the point, where the video scene of the 5 original X-Men (from EF 6) takes place in thier chronology? 


Some thoughts, the X-Men are not recognized by the media. That implies that it is soon after they recieved thier individual costumes, which they are wearing. It's probably also the first time that anyone has had an opportunity to film them in these costumes. 

Second, it works to our advantage to place this fb as early as possible, so as not to contradict Banshee's app. in Gen X -1, where he is a policeman. 

Third, we do not see who the X-Men are fighting in this fb, so it could either go between issues of UX, or it could be a video of an already seen incident. Either way it has to take place udner the following conditions: 

a) While wearing the individual costumes (after X-Men 39) 
b) when the 5 original x-men are together 
c) and in NYC 
d) at a time when Havok and or Lorna would not be physically with the team (they could be off-somewhere else, but not present in the same scene.) 
e) ditto for Xavier 
f) has to be before GSX 1, and probably before the Hidden Years. It seems like Havok and Lorna join the team full time with X-Men 66/Hidden Years, so probably before then. 

These above guildines rule out appearances between issues 41-42 (which occur in the same evening) 43-45 (off fighting Magneto in Europe), 46-49 (the X-Men have split up), 54-63 (one long continuous storyline where the X-Men go from Alex's graduation, to Egypt, to the Adirondacks, to Dr. Karl Lykos' to the Savage Land), and 65-66 (where Xavier comes back to the team. 

For Banshee's sake, we will have to make the assumption that he was working as a NYC policeman during at least part of the original run of the X-Men, ending before GSX 1. (so that Gen X -1 would be between ux 43-58, or between UX 60 and CA 172, or CA 172, and GSX 1, but later clues in EF may help us to place this, when Emma gets to New York.) 

The earliest possible placement would be between UX 39 and 40. It could not happen during #40, as the X-men are either inside the museum, or on a freighter in this issue. 

The next would be between 40 and 41. 

It would seem weird to place this between 42 and 43, as the X-Men would be making funeral arangements for Xavier during this time. 

After that 43-45 they are off as prisoners of Magneto in Europe. 

The next place would be between 45 and 46. 

After ux 46 the team is broken up until 49, by the time they would be available again, it would be after UX 52. 

53 is a filler issue, set at the mansion, so between 52 and 53, or 53-54 are open possibilities, though later than I would like to place this. 

54-63 are one continous storyline (with Havok, etc.) 

Before or after ux 64 is open. 

65-66 is not, and those kind of flow into the Hidden Years, which is a big continuous storyline. 

My suggestion would be to place the EF 6 flashback between UX 39 & 40, or between 40 & 41. I wouldlike to place this as early as we can, to allow the most time possible for any additional EF storylines that occur before she meets Banshee and the Hellfire Club. 

Placing it between UX 39 & 40, would definitly be before anyone in the media could have seen the new costumes. 

Dave H

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Posted: 23 May 2004 03:00 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I posted similar suggestions a while back. I agree with you. 

However: 

The dialogue over the news broadcast seems to indicate that nobody's ever seen these weird teenage superhumans before. Remember, these are the same X-Men that saved Cape Citadel ... would a mere change of costume be enough to confuse the media? They're fairly recognizable figures ("who is this NEW ice-covered man, and man with wings, and man who shoots red beams..."). 

It's possible that the costumes are an art error, and this is meant to refer to the early early days of the X-Men, when they were first being spotted in public. 

Also, the dialogue at the Hellfire Club party in GENX #-1 refers to MU events like building the Helicarrier and Reed Richards patenting unstable molecules ... they may point to, or force, a placement for that issue that's earlier than post-UX #39. 

For what it's worth, I'd like to see the EF #6 FB and GENX #-1 listed where you suggest. But it may not work out. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 May 2004 06:09 pm 
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

I have to admit to taking a broad brush approach to this. I agree that the X-Men are clearly being presented as newcomers in the TV appearance, and therefore the costumes are probably an art error. (Another possibility is that, because of the costume change, the reporter simply hasn't recognised them as the X-Men. But that doesn't seem to be the idea.) 

But ultimately, it doesn't really matter - the X-Men's appearance, in one panel on a TV, is completely irrelevant to the plot. If the overall timeline of EMMA FROST dictates an earlier placement, then clearly that should take precedence.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 23 May 2004 07:54 pm    
By Dhall

C'mon now how easily recognizable (as the X-Men) were the X-Men back in the old days? They got the least media coverage of any super team. 

As for the X-Men becoming famous for saving Cape Citadel, where is the evidence for this? The only people who knew about it (at the time) were one base commander and his men. Do you really think that the US gov't told the media that they needed the X-Men to save them? (Sure it all came out later on, and the X-Men became known for it later, but not at the time!) 

Yes the X-Men were known to the media (see X-Men #2 for an example), but Well-known is a stretch, let alone well known outside of Washington DC, and New York City. (Remember this series takes place in Massachusetts, not exactly a hotbed of superheroes.) Why wouldn't a reporter in Massachusetts get confused on this subject? 


More importantly, what we are talking about is "footage captured by an amateur video camera in New York City, of a bizarrely uniformed group of teens, exhibiting fantastic powers. Elaborately staged hoax perpetrated by FX wizardry? Or the real deal? Log onto our Surreal TV website and cast your vote..." 

If this tape were being aired in NYC, by a large news organization, and they didn't recognize the X-Men then I might agree with you. 

Instead, it is being shown on "Surreal TV" which is some kind of fact or fiction? program, where viewers are being invited to tune in and vote on a website. 

It seems to me, the producers of "Surreal TV" don't care if they know who the X-Men are or not. The point of this segment is to provide sensationalistic programming, not well documented reporting. 


Also, we do not know that this is a recent tape.....we are just assuming this! 

I know there is some dialogue in Gen x -1 that suggests it occurs before FF 1. I've always thought that to be a mistake (Because I don't think that Emma is old enough to have been 16 pre-FF 1.) Now in that issue, it also says that Emma is 16, and she ran away from home a year ago. I would say that there are a lot of topical references in that issue. 

Some will turn out be correct, others probably won't, this is the way of topical references. 

Also the temporal references in EF will likely conflict with those in Gen X -1, and we'll have to live with it. I don't see any reason to say "art error" at this stage. 

Dave H

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Posted: 23 May 2004 08:21 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
[Gen X #-1] also says that Emma is 16, and she ran away from home a year ago. I would say that there are a lot of topical references in that issue. 


Those aren't "topical" references, though. Topical references are references to REAL-WORLD events, like an issue published in October having a Halloween story, or an issue showing the current President. 

On an unrelated note, it bothers me deeply that this series mentioned "websites". If it's set 9-10 years ago, as it claims, even in the REAL world there weren't widely-popular websites in 1994-95 -- let alone in the era of Marvel history it's set in. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 May 2004 09:16 pm    
By Dhall

Well normally I would agree with you Jeph about what is and isn't a topical reference. In the case of a continuity implant issue, it seems to me that some of the referneces to MU events could be considered topical ones. (I'm not saying they are, just that they could be.) After all do we know when Reed patented unstable molecules? It could be way after FF 1 that he filed the application. (And are they refering to when he filed it, or to when the patent was granted, and do we know exactly when that was? )Also there is a reference to a company being awarded a contract for a "Helicarrier" Do we know that this is building the original one, and not just a contract to repair it, or to make improvements on the existing one? This is what I mean by "topical" in this case. References that might refer to pre-FF 1, but could easily be stretched to refer to a later period. 
(I probably should have explained what I meant by this before.) 

We may have to wait for more evidence to roll in, to place EF and Gen X -1, we may even have to wait for events in EF to ctach up to and go past Emma meeting/joining the Hellfire Club. 

Still based on what we have, I believe that the EF 6-FB will fall in between or around the issues that I had mentioned. I hope that when all is said and done in EF, that we can keep Gen X -1. I think that the references in it are fairly malleable, as I described. 

I also believe that we will end up placing EF & Gen X -1 by clues primarily found in EF, and that Gen X -1 will become a secondary consideration, but I do wonder if we'll get anymore X-Men references, or if we'll end up determining placement based on what is going on in the Hellfire Club? 

It'll be interesting to see what they do with Tessa. So far it's been 3 years or so since they revealed that she was Xavier's plant all along, and I still haven't seen any evidence which makes this to be a believable idea. 

Perhaps they'll plant something in EF..... 

Oh, yeah the "websites" Marvel stories seem to be set in the eternal present...... that makes for <sarcasm> great reading </sarcasm> when your reading all of your comics. Oh it's the sixties topical references, then there are "websites" and "cell phones" then back to the sixties, then to early nineties references in HY, then back to the seventies ones..... 


Dave H

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Posted: 23 May 2004 09:33 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
We may have to wait for more evidence to roll in, to place EF and Gen X -1, we may even have to wait for events in EF to ctach up to and go past Emma meeting/joining the Hellfire Club. 
<<<


I don't think they can have this Emma Frost join the Hellfire Club. The trades of the series are being marketed in the Marvel Age section. The series itself has a PSR rating. I could be wrong, but I don't ever see this Emma Frost joining the Hellfire Club, much less assassinating the Lords Cardinal. I think the angle of this being the origin of the White Queen of the Hellfire Club is just a line to get the X-Fans in while Marvel tries to sell a book to girls. Nothing wrong with that, just this entire series will have to come well before Uncanny X-Men #129 should the MCP decide that it's a canon series.

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Posted: 23 May 2004 09:58 pm    
By Dhall

Andy, it is difficult to make predictions of what Marvel will or will not do. 

I don't understand the Marvel rating system, but issue 1 was pg+ 
issues 2-6 were psr+, issues 7-11 are psr. 

X-Statix and Wolverine are psr+, whatever that means. And the old wolverine series was pg, and Logan was out killing mobsters! 

The XX: Storm: The Arena issues were PSR, and those are kind of S&M themed comics. I don't think anything we've ever seen Emma do would have to be any more graphic than those issues were. 

Do we really know that oh say issues 17-21 won't be Marvel's verision of NC-17 or R? (I don't think I'm alone in hoping for a very special Emma Frost storyline, with a parental warning: explicit content label (like Alias has.) Yes that would be a different direction for EF, but my point is that the series will have to take a different direction (or end) once she gets into the Hellfire Club. 

And um, given the Greg Horn covers, are you sure this is marketed at girls? The inside content maybe...though I suspect it's marketed at people who like Emma from New X-Men, and to long time fans. 

oh, and I haven't heard anyone express doubts that this series is cannonical. The Assasination of the Lords Cardinal took place circa UX 99, not 129. 

Personally, I wouldn't mind if this series was at some point replaced by one delving into the backstory of all the original Hellfire Club members, but written/drawn by the same creative team. 

Dave H

Last edited by Dhall on 23 May 2004 10:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 23 May 2004 10:00 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Dave: 

I think we're a bit split on what "topical" means. You seem to be saying that any reference that can't actually be correct is by definition a "topical" one. Me, I think "topical reference" means "reference to the real world". yes, some of the references to other MU events in EF and GENX #-1 may end up not working -- but all that means is that they're incorrect references, not "topical references". 

Andy: 

When the Emma Frost series was originally announced, Marvel said that she'd be caught up to present day within the first year. As the solicits for #13-18 have her enrolled at ESU, it seems they've changed their mind -- as you say, likely to prolong the PSR-level amount of time they can market the book to teenage girls, rather than backstory-loving X-fans. 

That said, I still feel that this is "our" Emma Frost -- that the book is canon. And who knows, maybe when it's cancelled, the final issue will have her cross paths with the Club, with a blurb saying "follow the adventures of Emma every month in 'Astonishing X-Men'!" :wink:

(On the other hand, aspects of this book quite sharply contradict FBs in GENX #24 and 48, as well as #-1 -- so, depending what else the series crosses, we just might end up junking it after all. Who knows?) 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 May 2004 10:10 pm    
By Dhall

okay Jeph, 
Just go and replace every "topical reference" with "incorrect reference" and my post will make more sense. 

I just meant that the references (whatever we call them) in gen x -1 are fairly malleable in terms of placement. More so than some people would think at first reading. They are not hard and fast fixed to being pre-FF 1 refereneces. There is a lot of room to play with them. 

I dislike the term "incorrect reference" for these, because what I am saying is that they are not incorrect, they just have don't have to refer to pre-FF 1 events. 

Unless we see for example, Reed recieving his approved patent application for unstable molecules, how do we know when it was given? (Maybe he filed the application before FF 1, but that doesn't mean it was approved then. And maybe for all I know, that particular patent was never addressed. We need a FF expert for this!) 

Dave H

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Posted: 23 May 2004 11:05 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
I don't understand the Marvel rating system, but issue 1 was pg+ 
issues 2-6 were psr+, issues 7-11 are psr. 
<<<


PSR=PG 
PSR+=PG+=PG-13 

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Do we really know that oh say issues 17-21 won't be Marvel's verision of NC-17 or R? 
<<<


Marvel has stated that they're not going to do a bunch of changes in a books ratings. This of course could change at any moment, but that's the current policy. 

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
And um, given the Greg Horn covers, are you sure this is marketed at girls?  
<<<


In case you haven't noticed, the covers have changed, which is part of my concern. Everyone wants the mythical female comic book reader. Marvel has apparently quietly changed the focus of a book in the hope of appealing to that demographic. Those of us who want the Hellfire Club may have to do without. 

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
oh, and I haven't heard anyone express doubts that this series is cannonical. 
<<<


I'm not saying it isn't either, yet. I'm just expressing some concerns. I'm having a difficult time reconciling this Emma Frost with the one from the Hellfire Club. Not that other characters haven't reversed personalities at the whim of the writer/editor/management.

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Posted: 24 May 2004 09:56 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
mythical female comic book reader 
<<<


My wife really likes Emma Frost..... 

Whatever happens in the book, according to Gen X -1, Emma spends a year doing unknown stuff between the time she left home, and the time she met Harry Leland. (And she hadn't even met, let alone allied with Sebastian Shaw at that point.) 

So given how many issues could be in a "year" of Marvel time...... 

Let's just say I don't think they can sustain Emma wandering around in NY for more than a storyline or two. She's not a titan of industry, until long after she joins the Hellfire Club, so they don't have that angle to play with either. Ditto with the Academy. 

So what are they going to do? Emma Frost in school doesn't sound promising, but she did have to learn to use her powers at some point between EF 12 and Gen X -1. 

Dave H

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Posted: 24 May 2004 10:24 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
My wife really likes Emma Frost..... 
<<<

As does my girlfriend. Hey, maybe they're onto something. 

The digest of the first six issues was solicited this past week for August -- everyone buy one for your wife/GF/female friend! (It's only eight bucks, too ... you can swing it.) 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 May 2004 11:48 am    Post subject: Unstable Molecules
By dimadick

"Also, the dialogue at the Hellfire Club party in GENX #-1 refers to MU events like building the Helicarrier and Reed Richards patenting unstable molecules ... they may point to, or force, a placement for that issue that's earlier than post-UX #39." 

The "Unstable Molecules" are the material first used for the Fantastic Four uniforms. The uniforms themselves debuted in Fantastic Four #3 (March, 1962). In Fantastic Four #6 (September, 1962), Reed Richards explains his own costume to be "woven from chemical fibers containing unstable molecules that shift in structure when I affect the change!". That is considered to be the source of the term. 

Both SHIELD and its Helicarrier debuted in Strange Tales #135 (August, 1965). 

Could the events of GENX #-1 be occuring at some point between Fantastic Four #6 and Strange Tales #135 rather than predating Fantastic Four #1 (November, 1961)? Do other mentioned events force its placement before the Fantastic Four debute?

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Posted: 24 May 2004 12:08 pm    
By Dhall

The question though, is did Reed recieve (from the US govt) a completed US patent for the unstable molecules? That is what is being referenced in Gen X -1, not his discovery. As far as I can tell from references that I do have, he kind of kept the discovery a secret. (Please correct me on this if I'm wrong.) 

Also there is reference to a company being awarded a contract on a "Helicarrier" It's not explicitly stated that this contract is to build the original one. It could be to upgrade it, to repair it after a battle, or even to build a new one later on. 

Dave H

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Posted: 24 May 2004 01:07 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

The X-Men appear, in their original costumes, in ST #156 -- which is, of course, after the Helicarrier was initially constructed. 

So if the EF series and GENX #-1 are to occur after UX #39, then the "Helicarrier" line would have to refer to refurbishing it. 

Either that or the X-Men's costumes in EF #6 are an art error, and the EF series and GENX #-1 do occur earlier than UX #39. (Right now the MCP has ST #156 occuring between UX #27-28.) 

Or, you know, maybe EF isn't a canon series. 

I honestly don't know which way I'm leaning. We'll have to see what future issues of EF have to say, I guess... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 May 2004 01:22 pm    
By Dhall

Refurbishing the Hellicarrier would definitly be a big enough contract for the guy with the inside information to get excited about. (This is the same gov't that pays $900 for a toilet seat....) 

We'll still have to wait for more info....grrr.... 
Maybe they'll give us more to go on.... 

Dave H

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Posted: 25 May 2004 03:13 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Or, you know, maybe EF isn't a canon series. 
<<<


I don't think there's any doubt that EMMA FROST is canon. It's gone to great lengths to be consistent with NEW X-MEN, and the writer has promised explanations of the apparent inconsistencies with GENERATION X flashbacks (presumably along the lines that Emma was lying in those flashbacks, which is perfectly tenable). 

There are no problems with EMMA FROST's canonicity other than window dressing such as the X-Men's costumes (which strongly appear to be an art error considering the tone of the news commentary).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 25 May 2004 04:40 pm    
By Dhall

Paul, 
I disagree with the "art error based off the tone of the news commentary" theory. 

The tone of the commentary does not support this theory. 

The news commentary invites viewers to log onto a website to vote if this footage is "fact or fiction" 

Here is the Exact quotation: 

"footage captured by an amateur video camera in New York City, of a bizarrely uniformed group of teens, exhibiting fantastic powers. Elaborately staged hoax perpetrated by FX wizardry? Or the real deal? Log onto our Surreal TV website and cast your vote..." 

Surreal TV is hardly a reputable news program, it is an entertainment based program. In fact, I object to labeling this segment as "news" 

It was neither video'ed by a reputable reporter, nor was the commentary done by a reputable news organization. It is tabloid journalism. 

So even if the Surreal TV producers recognized the "group of teens" as the X-Men (which is by no means a given, as the X-Men were not very well known outside of NYC and Washington DC in the Silver age) they are choosing to ignore that. 

I would need a lot more (like some supporting evidence) to agree with the art error theory. The evidence in the EF 6-FB does not support it. 

If "Surreal TV" were oh let's say, oh say the Daily Bugle, or the Washington Post, (or even FOX tv) then you'd have a case. 

By the way, how many websites were there during the Silver Age? <sigh> 

Dave H

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Posted: 25 May 2004 06:13 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The point is that the commentary acts as if the X-Men are unfamiliar figures. It's unlikely that they would do that if it was late enough in their career for them to be in the late-sixties uniforms. 

The Silver Age is, as of 2004, full of websites because the Marvel Universe is in the eternal present.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 25 May 2004 08:46 pm    
By Dhall

And my point is that the X-Men are unfamiliar figures to the producers of "Surreal TV" and NOT to the news media at large (which is familiar with the X-Men) 

There is no reason why the producers of a fact or fiction? show would recognize the X-Men in thier new costumes. 

Yes, a legitimate reporter who checked his or her facts would recognize the X-Men, but that's not the situation we see in EF 6. 

We cannot generalize that because the producers of one non-news based tv show are fooled by the X-Men's new costumes, that the costumes must be an art error. (All that it means, is that these costumes are likely to be new.) 

What you seem to be overlooking is that this is a tabloid trashy program, purveying sensationalism, not honest fact-based reporting. 

Do you get your news from oh, a news channel, or from trashy daytime entertainment shows? That's the difference we are talking about here. 

(For all we know, this is could be cable access programming....) 

The only thing that we do know (as a fact) is that an amateur camerman took some footage of the X-Men in new costumes fighting something that did not make into the video, and that it took place in New York City. 


Anything else is supposition, until we get some more facts. 

Dave H

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Posted: 26 May 2004 02:30 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Well, if you don't want to go by the tone of the scene (which I genuinely think is self-evident), let's go for cold logic. 

The first arc of EMMA FROST takes place before she leaves the family home. Therefore it precedes GENERATION X #-1, where she first arrives at the Hellfire Club. 

In that issue, Sean Cassidy is still a police officer. So it's before his debut in X-MEN #28, by which time he'd been pressganged into slavery by Factor Three. 

The X-Men were still wearing their black and gold costumes in X-MEN #28. Therefore they can't possibly be wearing later costumes in any video footage seen in EMMA FROST. 

Therefore it's an art error.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 26 May 2004 07:09 am    
By Dhall

Gen X -1 is the only issue that we've seen Sean working as a NYC cop. (rather than an Interpol one.) So we don't really know where it occurs in his chronology. It is perfectly likely that he was a cop, and went back to being one after the Factor Three kidnap incident. It's hardly unprecidented for a MU character to work a normal job, and moonlight as a superhero.... 



Dave H

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Posted: 26 May 2004 10:43 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Yeah, I was going to mention that too -- it's not that Gen X #-1 has Sean as "still" a cop -- it's the ONLY time we see him as a cop. 

As opposed to, like Dave says, an Interpol guy. 

Which is where this wiggle room comes in, I suppose... 

Look -- let's all just leave this be until we get more clues one way or the other. We're going around in increasingly pointless circles here. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 May 2004 12:28 pm    
By Dhall

I agree with Jeph. We might as well drop this for now, until the next chronologically relevant fact is revealed to us. 

All that I really wanted to accomplish with this thread is to show that there is more than one possible interpretation to both the EF 6-Fb and Gen X -1. 

And I think we've done that, so let's move on to other thigns for now.... 

Dave H

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Thread 45

Posted: 27 Apr 2004 05:06 pm    Post subject: Merlin notes
By Scathach80

A while ago the discussion as to whether Merlyn (from Captain Britain) was in fact the Earth-616 Merlin of antiquity came up. However, some appearances that belong to Merlyn still remain in the listing for the Merlin of antiquity. To address this: 

MERLIN 
N 62-FB 
A@ 22/2 
BK2 1-FB 
BK2 2-FB 
A@ 20/2-FB 
IM 209-FB 
FF 5-BTS ~ DAZZ 3-FB 
IM 250 

Note: Namor 62's flashback should precede Avengers Annual#22/2-FB because Merlin (or Myraddin of Ruta)'s origin was told in that flashback. 

MERLIN II/See Maha Yogi 


MERLYN 
Note: Merlyn of Otherworld claims to be Merlin of Camelot. All of the known versions of Merlin/Merlyn so far, though, have been portrayed as master manipulators. So, for the moment, his claim is unverified. 

XCAL 50-FB 
CB 35-FB 
CB 1-FB 
M/TU 65-FB 
CB 1-FB 
CB 2-FB 
CB 2 
CB 33 
CB 34 
CB 35 
CB 36 
CB 37 
CA 306 
XCAL:P 
XCAL 47 
XCAL 48-BTS 
XCAL 49 
XCAL 50 
XCAL 125 

There is also an addition to the Maha Yogi entry. According to The Official Handbook in the Modred entry, the Maha Yogi was the "Merlin" in the origin of Modred the Mystic. Modred's origin was told in DRSTR3 11/2 and M/CHL 1-FB. "Merlin" was not seen in the latter issue, so the Maha Yogi would be behind the scenes. 


Actually, several additions to the Maha Yogi entry have to do with some flashbacks to his origin. 

MAHA YOGI 
DSTR3 27/2-FB 
H2 210-FB 
JIM 96-FB 
ST 134 
DRSTR3 11/2-FB~M/CHL 1-FB-BTS 
H2 210-FB 
JIM 96 
UX 30 
UX 47 
H2 211-FB 
H2 210 
H2 211 
A@ 22 
CM5 9 
CM5 11 
CM5 13 
CM5 16 
CM5 20 
CM5 21 

By the way, in one of those Citizen Kang back-ups, Kang noted that the Black Knight was away fighting Morgan Le Fay when he battled the Maha Yogi in ST 134. That would further explain how the Maha Yogi pulled off the impersonation.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Apr 2004 05:37 pm    Post subject: Another Merlin note
By Scathach80

Problem; one will have to split Doctor Strange 3#11/2 flashback between the two Merlins. I say this because the Handbook attributed the Maha Yogi as the one who summoned Modred in Modred's entry, but in Update '89#2:Darkhold entry, it stated that Merlin (the real one, Myraddin of Ruta) summoned Saint Brendan to deal with the Darkhold. 

Interestingly, Merlin (real one)'s defeat of the Maha Yogi and placing him into suspended animation was shown in in a flashback in Hulk#210. One can shoehorn this flashback inbetween Doctor Strange III#11/2's flashback. 

In other words, the Maha Yogi, posing as Merlin, summoned Modred to Camelot. Modred refused to come, and went for the Darkhold. Modred was overcome and thrown into suspended animation. After this, the real Merlin returned, placed the Maha Yogi in suspended animation, and then summoned Saint Brendan to deal with the Darkhold.* 

So: 

MERLIN 
N 62-FB 
A@ 22/2 
BK2 1-FB 
BK2 2-FB 
A@ 20/2-FB 
*DRSTR3 11/2-FB 
*H2 210-FB 
*DRSTR3 11/2-FB 
IM 209-FB 
FF 5-BTS ~ DAZZ 3-FB 
IM 250 

*As I mentioned elsewhere, in the Citizen Kang history back-up in Thor Annual#17, it is revealed that the Black Knight was away from Camelot, fighting Morgan Le Fay when Kang battled the Maha Yogi in ST 134. Possibly, Merlin was actually away too, and Kang did not see on his screen. 

Speaking of which............. 
The Thor Annual#17 flashback must follow Morgan Le Fay's raising of Chthon, because Doctor Strange III#11/2's Vishanti back-up (which you read online here 
http://www.drstrange.nl/drstrange/sanctum/book/v_darkholdcurse12.htm states that Merlin's summoning of Saint Brendan followed Morgan's raising of Chthon shown in that Avengers 187 flashback. As noted above, the Maha Yogi impersonation of the true Merlin must have also taken place after Morgan's raising of Chthon, because he was the "Merlin" who summoned Modred to Camelot. 

LE FEY, MORGAN 

N 62-FB 
IM 150 
BK2 1-FB 
BK2 2-FB 
IM 209-FB 
A 241-FB 
A 187-FB 
*T @17/4-FB 
A 241-FB 
S-W 2

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Apr 2004 06:00 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
Problem; one will have to split Doctor Strange 3#11/2 flashback between the two Merlins. I say this because the Handbook attributed the Maha Yogi as the one who summoned Modred in Modred's entry, but in Update '89#2:Darkhold entry, it stated that Merlin (the real one, Myraddin of Ruta) summoned Saint Brendan to deal with the Darkhold. 


Again, John -- you're suggesting your change based PURELY on what the Handbooks say. 

What does the ISSUE ITSELF say? Which version of Merlin is appearing there ACCORDING TO THE ISSUE? 

And, forget the Handbooks, what's the simplest way to resolve the problem? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Apr 2004 08:41 am  
By Scathach80

"Quote: 
Problem; one will have to split Doctor Strange 3#11/2 flashback between the two Merlins. I say this because the Handbook attributed the Maha Yogi as the one who summoned Modred in Modred's entry, but in Update '89#2:Darkhold entry, it stated that Merlin (the real one, Myraddin of Ruta) summoned Saint Brendan to deal with the Darkhold. 


Again, John -- you're suggesting your change based PURELY on what the Handbooks say. 

What does the ISSUE ITSELF say? Which version of Merlin is appearing there ACCORDING TO THE ISSUE? 

And, forget the Handbooks, what's the simplest way to resolve the problem?" 
..................................................................................................... 
According to the issues......well, Marvel Chillers#1 does not actually show Merlin. He is strictly behind the scenes. We only hear about him when the Modred mentions how he heard of Merlin showing erratic behavior. Remember, Modred did not actually meet Merlin. He only went for the Darkhold based on what he had *heard* about Merlin. 

Doctor Strange III#11/2 blandly tells the story of the summoning of Saint Brendan as if the true Merlin was involved.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Apr 2004 08:56 am    
By Scathach80

Actually, technically, Doctor Strange III#11/2 does not detail the summoning of Modred to Camelot, only the summoning of Saint Brendan to deal with the Darkhold. 

For those of you unfamiliar with Modred's origin, in Marvel Chillers#1 he was a minor sorcerer in Arthurian times. Modred, the apprentice to the sorcerer Gervasse, was summoned to Camelot by "Merlin" to serve as apprentice. 
Modred had no interest in serving under "that dry and aging charlatan, who is so senile that he cannot tell a wand from a poker." Gervasse echoed his sentiment, commenting, "Merlin has grown strange of late, and there art whispered tales of dealings he has made with dark forces! His students are sworn to silence by him, and none may leave on pain of death" 
Rather then go to train under "Merlin" in Camelot, and thus leave his beloved Janice, he instead sought power from the Darkhold, and was overcome by its power. 
"Merlin" was not actually seen in Marvel Chillers#1, but The Official Handbook entry for Modred states that it was in fact that Maha Yogi posing as Merlin who summoned Modred to Camelot. That would seem to fit with the eratic behavior that the characters in the story had heard about. 
I am not sure if this idea (that the man who summoned Modred was actually the Maha Yogi) has ever been mentioned in a published story. It does not really contradict the original story, and it helps flesh it out. Should we run with it? 

.......................................................................................................... 
Making things even more complicated; Marvel Two-In-One#33 (fb) - BTS) - Unwilling to give up on obtaining Modred as an apprentice, "Merlin" placed four elementals at Stonehenge and sent them forward in time to find Modred when he might awaken, and bring Modred back in time to serve him. These elementals arrived in the modern era when Modred had revived, but they were destroyed by Modred, with a little help from the Thing and Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew).

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 May 2004 09:32 am    Post subject: Saint Brendan
By dimadick

"In other words, the Maha Yogi, posing as Merlin, summoned Modred to Camelot. Modred refused to come, and went for the Darkhold. Modred was overcome and thrown into suspended animation. After this, the real Merlin returned, placed the Maha Yogi in suspended animation, and then summoned Saint Brendan to deal with the Darkhold.* " 

Jean-Marc Lofficier has recently posted a profile for Saint Brendan which has a somewhat different order of events. He was kind enough to offer his own intended/ suggested chronological placements for the various issues involving both the real and the imposter Merlin. See if it helps clear things : http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/brendan.htm

			*	*	*

Thread 46

Posted: 24 May 2004 04:16 pm    Post subject: Grotto and a bit of Turk
By Peter Fabricius

Here is a listing for Turk's partner in crime. 

GROTTO 
DD 168 (first appearance) 
DD 170 (first named) 
DD 171 
DD 172 
DD 176 (he starts wearing a woollen cap, and looses the generic thug look that makes him difficult to locate in earlier appearances) 
DD 178 
DD 180 
DD 181 
DD 182 
DD 190 
DD 196 
DD 220 
DD 229 
DD2 6 (I think that one of Turk's partners is supposed to be Grotto, he has the cap, but looks somwhat different) 



TURK 
... 
DD 203 
** DD 220 (clearly seen with Grotto, being interrogated by Daredevil) 
DD 229 


This is based on Olshevsky's index and my own collection. 
I used the 3 DD Visionaries volumes collecting DD 158-191. 
Love's Labors Lost collecting DD 215-217, 219-222, 225-226 
Born Again collecting DD227-233 
I also checked M/FAN 23, M/GN 24, M/CP 5 &19, NT2 2, DD 196, DD 223, DD 235, DD 236, DD 238, DD 351, DD2 6 and DD2 47. 

My Daredevil collection doesn't really start until #343, I only have about 40-50 issues between 196 and 343, I may check the rest of them at some later date for Turk and Grotto. 

First though, I'm rereading Spider-Man, form about Peter Davids first stories.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2004 03:39 am    Post subject: Turk has a last name?
By dimadick

The Appendix to the Marvel Handbook has recently added a profile of Turk. According to it "Turk's last name was revealed in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, original edition, MAULER entry." The last name was given as Barrett. Shout it be added to his listing? See: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/turkbarretdd.htm

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2004 09:53 am    
By Peter Fabricius

I knew I had seen the name Barrett before, and the Appendix to the Marvel Handbook was nice enough to give a source. 

Official Handbook to the Marvel Universe #7 page 9, does indeed list Turk's last name as Barrett. 
So again should we take this as canon? 

At least this is not one of those 'funny' names as Telford Porter. 

My vote is for yes.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2004 03:14 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The Handbook didn't coin the name Telly Porter - it was the name Vanisher used back in the Silver Age. I think the Handbook lists it as "Probably an alias", or something like that.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 25 May 2004 06:16 pm    
By Dhall

Paul, that's simply not true. Vanisher is the Only name he used during the Silver Age. I'm not sure exactly the first time that the name "Telford Porter" appears in a Cannon book, but it was coined for the Handbook. (probably the 1987 edition, but I don't have either one available to check.) 

(I just looked through all of Vanishers apps. from UX 2 through FF 335, publsihed in 1989, and it's never used once.....) 

I'm sure it's probably used later in a book, but I think that the last X-Men (or was it Uncanny) annual that featured him is the only time I remember the name being used outsode the Handbook (not saying it wasn't used before that....) 

This is why I don't like using information from any of the Handbooks, no matter who wrote them. Information is NOT cannon in my book, until it appears in an actual cannon story. 

The name "Telford Porter" did not become cannon (as far as I'm concerned) until a writer used it in a story. 

This is what concerns me about the new handbooks, the danger that a writer will flip through one, not check the facts, and suddenly we'll have "The Uncanny Amazing adventures of Erista, Son of Wolverine" or some such nonesense. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2004 07:54 pm    
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
probably the 1987 edition, but I don't have either one available to check.)  



The 1987 Handbook shows as 

Real name: Unknown 
Former aliases: Telford Porter 

no reference in the text. 



My personal feeling, like yours, is that only information from canon stories should be considered. All information should be able to be backed up with issue and page/panel references.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2004 10:21 pm
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
This is what concerns me about the new handbooks, the danger that a writer will flip through one, not check the facts, and suddenly we'll have "The Uncanny Amazing adventures of Erista, Son of Wolverine" or some such nonesense. 
<<<


That's almost certainly the way it will happen. 


watching: lou dobbs

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2004 10:59 pm    
By Dhall

I'm sure that "Telford Porter" was meant to be a joke, and now it's a cannon name.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2004 11:22 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

As I've said elsewhere, I believe that Erista is meant to be a hoax, and it'll become canon, once somebody uses it in a story. 


watching: larry king

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Posted: 26 May 2004 02:09 am    
By Peter Fabricius

Arthur wrote: 
>>>
The 1987 Handbook shows as 

Real name: Unknown 
Former aliases: Telford Porter 

no reference in the text. 
<<<


And the 1983 edition has it as 

Real Name: Telford Porter 
Former Aliases: None known 

I never should have mantioned the d*mn thing in the first place 
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2004 04:43 am    Post subject: Porter
By dimadick

"I'm sure it's probably used later in a book, but I think that the last X-Men (or was it Uncanny) annual that featured him is the only time I remember the name being used outsode the Handbook (not saying it wasn't used before that....) " 

That would be Uncanny X-Men 2001. There he is adressed by the last name "Porter". No reference to a first name though.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2004 06:11 am    
By rhod

Sorry, I only just got that, I'm a bit slow today, 
Telly Porter = Teleporter, hahahahahaha

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2004 12:55 pm    
By Dhall

Well then, at least as of Uncanny X-Men 2001 he's using it. It's still likely to be an alias. I would like to know if 'Telford' or 'Telly' has ever made it into a story.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2004 03:06 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

I just looked through She-Hulk #59, where Vanisher is supposed to appear in court. We get the following read from a dossier. 

'Telford Porter... ...aka I. M. Owdaheere, B. Meeup Scotti, I. M. Histeree, C. Yah, Lon Gawne-- --and The Vanisher!' 

She-Hulk is reading this from a dossier given to her by Blake Tower, and only because Vanisher had disappeared from the cell, does she realise it is him. 

So it can be read as if this is really his name, but also as it is just another alias. 

A fun story by the way, not the least because of the courtroom scene with the Tinkerer being sued by about a dozen unsatisfied supervillains. 

It was written by Len Kamisky and Scott Benson, with art by Pat Oliffe and Steve Montano.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 May 2004 09:38 am    Post subject: Vanisher the Joker.
By dimadick

" 'Telford Porter... ...aka I. M. Owdaheere, B. Meeup Scotti, I. M. Histeree, C. Yah, Lon Gawne-- --and The Vanisher!' 

So it can be read as if this is really his name, but also as it is just another alias." 

And also that Vanisher has a thing for humorous aliases. Confirming Telford Porter to be among them. So should any of them be added to his MCP listing?

			*	*	*

Thread 47

Posted: 27 May 2004 12:45 pm    Post subject: What If test case
By Enda80

I mentioned a while ago how I thought that What Ifs would present a challenge because What If worlds are supposed to be the same as Earth-616 up until the point of divergence. This means that any event depicted in a What If story that takes place before the point of divergence, such as a flashback, would have taken place on Earth-616. 

Well, What If I#18 features a flashback to Agamotto finding the Eye of Agamotto.....and this occurs in a timeframe from before the point of divergence. 

Any thoughts?

			*	*	*

Thread 48

Posted: 25 May 2004 10:30 pm    Post subject: Legion Quest Flashbacks
By Dhall

Sean, Jeph and I were discussing the Age of Apocalypse in the Issue forum thread. Sean pointed out to me that the flashbacks for the Legion Quest issues, which proceed the AOA are not in the MCP. 

Since these are cannon events that happen to the canon versions of characters, due to Legion time travelling, and generally causing some unpleasantness in the past, I thought I would add them in here. 

(I'm starting a new thread, because they aren't part of the AOA. I will add the AOA Characters who appear in FB in XM 41, to the AOA thread) 

Professor Xavier 

UX 117-FB 
UX 161-FB 
UX 309-FB 
**X 40 
**UX 321 
**X 41 
**XOmega 
UX 161-FB 

BY the way, Xavier is NOT in CX 19/2, so that should be deleted from his listing (it's a Magneto solo story.) 

Magneto 
XMU 2-FB 
UX 161-FB 
UX 309-FB 
**X 40 
**UX 321 
**X 41 
**XOMEGA 
UX 161-FB 
CX 19/2 

Haller, Gabrielle 
UX 161-FB 
UX 309-FB 
**X 40 
**UX 321 
**X 41 
**XOMEGA 
UX 161-FB 
NM 1 


Apocalypse 
C2 '99-FB 
**X 41 
C2 -1 



Dave H

Last edited by Dhall on 26 May 2004 07:14 am; edited 2 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2004 11:13 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I just want to verify here that when you say XM 41, you mean X-Man. If you mean X-Men, the code is X. 


watching: larry king

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2004 11:34 pm    
By Dhall

You caught the post, before I could edit it. I've already changed XM to X.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2004 12:38 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Why do you consider them "flashbacks"? They're not flashbacks as far as I'm concerned -- they're just scenes taking place in another time period. 

Also -- I've been holding my tongue but I have to say it -- it's spelled "canon". One N in the middle. A "cannon" is something you shoot cannonballs out of, and every time I read a post about "cannon scenes" I giggle and think of a scene featuring a pirate ship. I'm sorry -- I'm not mocking you -- it just had to be said. :smile:

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2004 05:33 am
By Starman

Thanks for noticing, I began to think I was the only one who saw the amusement in it.  
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2004 07:12 am    
By Dhall

And it took this long for people to notice that I'm doing this...sheesh! Okay, seriously I think I picked up some extra consonants when I was in Britian, yeah that's it...it is hilarious.... 


FB's okay yeah I gsuppose your right. We don't have a notation for scenes occuring in other time periods. I think we should, but we don't so I shouldn't use FB to cover it. Correct. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2004 07:35 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

As I always say, 

"We know that a cannon goes 'boom,' but for canon stories we must make room." 

Why do I feel like Nipsey Russell?  

Also, as a general public service announcement, posters please note the spelling of "calendar."
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2004 08:33 am    
By Ant-Man

Actually, the word should be "canonical" (the adjective) 

"Canon" is the noun form, so you would have to say "Is this series part of the Marvel canon?"

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2004 10:45 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

So "cannon stories" is doubly wrong? 

WHERE DOES THIS CANNONICAL TALE OCCUR ON PAUL'S CALANDER? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2004 02:48 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

Are you sure you don't mean colander?
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2004 10:42 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I think I mean "salamander". 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 May 2004 09:11 pm    
By Dhall

Getting back to the original purpose of this thread: 

Psylocke's listing is somehow missing her app. in X:Omega 

Psylocke: 
UX 319 
UX 320-FB 
UX 320 
X 40 
UX 321 
X 41 
**X:OMEGA 
X:PRIME 
UX 322 

Legion 
X 41 
C2 20-BTS (debatable, he is 20 years in the past during this issue, so that is some long range BTS.....I would say remove it.) 
**X:OMEGA 
FF3 16(?) 

(Storm & Iceman are listed correctly) 


Bishop 
X 41 
**X:ALPHA (should be removed, this is AOA Bishop) 
**ASTONX 1(should be removed, this is AOA Bishop) 
**GENNXT 1(should be removed, this is AOA Bishop) 
**AMAZX 1(should be removed, this is AOA Bishop) 
**ASTONX 2(should be removed, this is AOA Bishop) 
**ASTONX 3(should be removed, this is AOA Bishop) 
**AMAZX 3(should be removed, this is AOA Bishop) 
**AMAZX 4(should be removed, this is AOA Bishop) 
X:OMEGA (both real and AOA Bishop appear in this issue) 
X:PRIME 

Please note that AOA Bishop is a seperate character who's history diverged from that of Bishop on Page 18 of X 41. 

At the end of X:Omega, both Bishops are in the past, AOA Bishop manages to impart some of his memories to Bishop, and then he fades out of existance. (So the two Bishops are not the same.) 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Thread 49

Posted: 28 May 2004 10:59 am    Post subject: Obscure Plantman question
By BobMM

Under Plantman, the Project lists GENERATION X #25 as a "BTS" appearance. 

Here's what I know: The villain of GEN X #25 is Black Tom Cassidy who, by this time, has indeed been transformed into a plant-man, but not the Plantman. There is no reference to Sam Smithers in the book, and no indication that Black Tom's plant-powers are in any way related to Sam's. 

Smithers' next actual appearance is AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #437. Here, the real Plant-Man attacks one of the Gen X characters, and says that he is seeking revenge for his defeat in an earlier battle with the team. Smithers even claims that the X kids made fun of his costume. Yes, a footnote claims that this occurred in GEN X #25. 

But it clearly didn't. So my question is: Other than the footnote in ASM 437, does anyone have any evidence that Plantman was somehow involved with Black Tom's attack in GEN X #25? Or with Generation X at any other time?

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2004 01:42 pm
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]
 
Well, in all other Tom appearance, he's made partially of wood. WOOD, not plant matter. 

And in GENX #25, he's entirely made of plant matter. And he dies. 

The next time we see him, he's entirely human again. 

It's conceivable that SOMEthing was going on ... that Plant-Man was helping Black Tom manipulate the local plants into a humanoid form -- or something. 

On the other hand, Austen recently had Black Tom revert "back" to being entirely made of plants, and showed him having control of other plants (or everything he controlled was grown from himself) ... so with that "revelation", it's conceivable that Black Tom WAS acting alone in Gen X #25. 

In that case, the Plant-Man thing would become a reference to an untold story, I guess... 

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Thread 50

Posted: 27 May 2004 11:43 pm    Post subject: Chronology of the past three years of the mainX-Men titles.
By Spiman1

One of the biggest "concerns" that hit the X-titles three years ago when Morrison and Casey first took over the titles and Claremont began X-Treme X-Men, was the lack of title continuity. But now that the titles have somewhat realigned (acknowleging events in other books)I thought I'd record what I think is the best way to order the stories of the past 3 years (of only the main three core X-men books)and hopefully make sense of what occured when and why Wolverine was always around. It's not perfect, but how does this look for the reading order? 

-Uncanny X-Men 394 
-X-Treme X-men 1-4 
-New X-Men 114-116 
-Uncanny 395-398 
-New X-Men 117 
-X-Treme X-Men Annual and the Savage Land mini 
-Uncanny 399-400, 2001 Annual, then 401 
-New X-Men 118-121 (occur the same time as: X-Treme X-men 5-9 and -Uncanny 402-409 
-New X-Men 122-127 
-New X-Men 132 (This is out of order, but it doesn't fit in very well ANYWHERE, so I planted it here out of order--as it had to go after Imperial and before the Invasion arc of X-treme) 
-Uncanny X-men 410-441 (I thought these stories must all run together. We see Cyclops reacting to his dead brothers return in these stories--that we don't see in New. Also, while the Uncanny team is in the foreground, the New X-men of Grant's book can be explained as teaching classes and being low key off panel. Jean is also present, so I figure a lot of this has to take place before the X-Corps tour) 
-X-Treme X-men 10-19,X-Treme Expose 1 and 2 and X-treme 20-23 (occuirng during the lengthy Austin run) 
-New X-men 128-138 
-X-Treme X-men 24 
-New X-Men 139-141 
-X-Treme X-men 25-39 (Wolvie leaves the mansion afetr Cyclops runs off, joins the X-Treme team for a bit during this time.) 
-New X-men 142-145 (Cyclops hasbeen gone a week or so. Wolverine finishes with the X-Treme team and meets up with Fantomex and Cyclops) 
-X-Treme X-men 40-45 
-New X-men 146-154 (Planet X is happening during X-Treme 40-45) 

Then the titles rejoin a bit for New 155 and 156, Uncanny 442 and 443 as well as X-Treme X-men 46 

This timeline still has so unexplained things in it, but I think it is a pretty solid timeline of events. What does everyone else think?

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2004 07:31 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Check out this previous thread. 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=216&start=0 

It doesn't completely cover the time period you mention, but there were posts a while back dealing with earlier chronology. And I've been keeping things up-to-date off-board. 

Hopefully you'll see the whole thing come together as part of a Marvel Calendar I plan to post next month.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2004 01:44 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Hey, Spiman. I asked you over on X-Board, but I'll ask again: 

why do you feel the need to place NXM #132 out of order? What makes you say that it can't fit between #131-133? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2004 01:55 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Paul, are you sure that's the thread you meant? It seems to be the one about Marvel characters in the Ultraverse.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2004 07:15 pm    
By Spiman1

The reason I put 132 out of order in my box is only because I place the X-Corps tour after the Invasion arc of X-Treme X-men and Thunderbird is not on the team. That was my thinking when I tried to assemble my own chronilogical order. So, I thought maybe this event isn't part of Xavier's world tour, but happens seperate of it. (This wasn't Grant intent, but it seems to make some kind of sense when ordering them.)

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2004 09:32 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Oops. Here's the link: 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=224&start=0 


BTW, I have X 131-133 occurring in their proper order, in quick succession at the end of August and the beginning of September of the year before the current year. They occur during the gap between pages 13 and 14 of XXX 1. 

_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 51

Posted: 21 Apr 2004 12:54 pm    Post subject: Intercompany crossover list
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Okay, folks, spinning out of the JLA/Avengers thread (and re-titled to attract more attention): can we get a list going of ALL the inter-company crossovers that Marvel has published or participated in? 

All of them -- canon or not. If we have a complete list, there's less chance we'll miss a canon book because someone remembers it incorrectly. 

I've gone through everyone's contributions and tried to confirm the official titles (what the cover reads) and publication dates. There are some titles that I couldn't find a cover scan for, though, and at least one book (Prophet/Spider-Man) that I couldn't find any proof of its existence. If anyone has any corrections or updates here, please add them to the bottom of the thread. 

I'll just keep editing this list as more issues are discovered: 

- Marvel/DC: 
Superman vs. the Amazing Spider-Man (1976) (tabloid format?) 
(DC Special Series #27): Batman vs. the Incredible Hulk (1981) 
Marvel Treasury Edition #28: Superman and Spider-Man (1981) (tabloid format) 
the Uncanny X-Men and the New Teen Titans (1982) 
Batman/Punisher (June 94) 
Punisher/Batman (Oct. 94) 
Spider-Man and Batman (Sept. 95) 
Darkseid vs. Galactus: the Hunger (1995) 
Green Lantern/Silver Surfer (1995) (lead-in to DC versus Marvel) 
DC versus Marvel (Marvel versus DC) #1-4 (1996) 
Sovereign Seven #2-3 (1996) (Wolvie, Kitty, Illyana and Lockheed appear in a cross-dimensional coffehouse) 
DC / Marvel: All Access #1-4 (Dec. 96-Feb. 97) 
Batman & Captain America (1996) 
Silver Surfer/Superman (Jan. 97) 
Green Lantern #87 (June 97) (Access, native to Marvel-Earth, appears) 
Batman & Spider-Man (1997) 
Daredevil and Batman (1997) 
Unlimited Access #1-4 (Dec. 97-Mar. 98) 
the Incredible Hulk vs. Superman (July 99) 
Batman/Daredevil: King of New York (1999) 
Superman/Fantastic Four (1999) (tabloid format, mentions Access) 
JLA/Avengers (Avengers/JLA) #1-4 (Sep. 2003-Apr. 2004) 

- Questionable: 
Showcase '95 #12 (DC-canon follow-up to X-Men/New Teen Titans, prologue to Sovereign Seven) 


- Amalgam (merged Marvel and DC universes): 
Amazon (Apr. 96) 
Assassins (Apr. 96) 
Bruce Wayne: Agent of SHIELD (Apr. 96) 
Bullets And Bracelets (Apr. 96) 
Doctor Strangefate (Apr. 96) 
JLX (Apr. 96) 
Legends of the Dark Claw (Apr. 96) 
Magneto and the Magnetic Men (Apr. 96) 
Speed Demon (Apr. 96) 
Spider-Boy (Apr. 96) 
Super Soldier (Apr. 96) 
X-Patrol (Apr. 96) 
Bat-Thing (June 97) 
Challengers of the Fantastic (June 97) 
the Dark Claw Adventures (June 97) 
the Exciting X-Patrol (June 97) 
Generation Hex (June 97) 
Iron Lantern (June 97) 
JLX Unleashed (June 97) 
Lobo the Duck (June 97) 
Magnetic Men featuring Magneto (June 97) 
Spider-Boy Team-Up (June 97) 
Super-Soldier: Man of War (June 97) 
Thorion of the New Asgods (June 97) 


- Marvel/Image: 
Hulk/Pitt (Feb. 97) 
Spider-Man Team-Up #5 (overlapped scenes from Savage Dragon/Destroyer Duck) 
the Savage Dragon/Destroyer Duck (overlapped *and expanded* scenes from Spider-Man Team-Up #5) 

- Marvel/Extreme 
Badrock/Wolverine (June 96) 
Youngblood v2 #10 (prologue to Youngblood/X-Force) 
Youngblood/X-Force (July 96) 
X-Force/Youngblood (Aug. 96) 
Prophet/Cable #1-2 (Jan.-Mar. 97) (#2's cover reads #1) 
Gladiator/Supreme (Mar. 97) 
Spider-Man/Badrock #1A, 1B (Mar. 97) 

- Questionable: 
Prophet/Spider-Man (1995) (does it exist?) 

- Marvel/WildStorm: 
Backlash/Spider-Man #1-2 (July/Aug.-Sept./Oct. 96) 
Deathblow and Wolverine #1-2 (Sept. 96-Feb. 97) 
Spider-Man/Gen13 (Nov. 96) 
Team X/Team 7 (Nov. 96) 
WildC.A.T.s/X-Men: the Golden Age (Feb. 97) 
WildC.A.T.s/X-Men: the Silver Age (June 97) 
Gen13/Generation X (July 97) 
WildC.A.T.s/X-Men: the Modern Age (Aug. 97) 
X-Men/WildC.A.T.s: the Dark Age (May 1998) 
Generation X/Gen13 (1998) 
Gen13/Fantastic Four (Mar. 01) 

Avengers v2 #13 
Captain America v2 #13 
Fantastic Four v2 #13 
Iron Man v2 #13 (Earth-HR merges with Earth-WS) 

- Marvel/Top Cow: 
Silver Surfer/Witchblade (Wizard #1/2) 
Weapon Zero/Silver Surfer (Jan. 97) 
Cyblade/Ghost Rider (Jan./Feb. 97) 
Ghost Rider/Ballistic (Feb. 97) 
Ballistic/Wolverine (Feb. 97) 
Wolverine/Witchblade (Mar. 97) 
Witchblade/Elektra (Mar. 97) 
Elektra/Cyblade (Mar. 97) 
Silver Surfer/Weapon Zero (May 97) 
Darkness/Hulk (2004, out yet?) 
Witchblade/Wolverine (2004, coming soon) 


- Marvel/Archie: 
Archie meets the Punisher 
the Punisher meets Archie 

- Questionable: 
Is this really the same book, with two different covers and two different titles? 


- Marvel/Crusade: 
Shi/Daredevil (Jan. 97) 
Daredevil/Shi (Feb. 97) 
Shi #0 (Wolverine appears) (2000?) 
Wolverine/Shi: Dark Night of Judgment (2000) 

- Questionable: 
Shi: Judgment Night (2000) 
Wolverine: Judgment Night (2000) (are these separate comics, or the same one with different covers? Is there any actual story in them?) 


- Marvel/Event: 
the Punisher/Painkiller Jane 


- Marvel/Malibu: 
Rune/the Silver Surfer (Apr. 95) 
Ultraforce/Avengers Prelude (July 95) (is this a flipbook from UF #11? Does #11 exist?) 
Avengers/Ultraforce (Sept. 95) 
Ultraforce/Avengers (Sept. 95) 
the All-New Exiles vs. X-Men (Oct. 95) 
Conan vs. Rune (Nov. 95) 
the Night Man vs. Wolverine (1995) 
Prime versus the Incredible Hulk (1995) 
Rune vs. Venom (1995) 
the Phoenix Resurrection: Genesis (Dec. 95) 
the Phoenix Resurrection: Revelations (Dec. 95) 
the Phoenix Resurrection #0 (1996) (collects 7-part prelude story plus all-new epilogue) 
Ultraforce/Spider-Man #1A-1B (Jan. 96) 
Prime/Captain America (Mar. 96) 
the Night Man/Gambit #1-3 (Mar.-May 96) 

- regular Malibu comics that guest-starred Marvel characters: 
the All-New Exiles #1-11, Infinity 
Black September: Infinity 
Curse of Rune #4 
Eliminator #3 
Foxfire #1-4 
Godwheel #1, 3 
Hardcase #23 
Lord Pumpkin/NecroMantra #1, 4 
Mantra #22 
Mantra v2 #2 
Night Man #22 
Night Man v2 #2 
Prime v2 #1, 2, Infinity 
Rune v2 #1-3, 6, 7, Infinity 
Siren #1-3, Infinity, Special 
UltraForce #8-10 
UltraForce v2 #1, 2, 4-12, Infinity 
Ultraverse Unlimited #1, 2 

- regular Marvel comics that guest-starred Malibu characters (shock!) 
Conan v2 #4 (prologue to Conan vs. Rune) 
Conan the Savage #4 

- Questionable: 
Conan v2 #5 (epilogue to Conan vs. Rune?) 
the Phoenix Resurrection: Aftermath (Jan. 96) (takes place in the future  I don't think any Marvel characters appear) 
Black Knight: Exodus (shows the Knight and Sersi returning from the Ultraverse?) 
Wolverine v2 #93 and 
X-Men #53 (show the Juggernaut travelling to and from the Ultraverse) 


- Marvel/Acclaim: 
Iron Man/X-O Manowar in Heavy Metal (Sept. 96) 
X-O Manowar/Iron Man in Heavy Metal (Sept. 96) 


- Marvel/licensed properties: 
Star Trek/X-Men (Dec. 96) 
Star Trek: the Next Generation/X-Men: Second Contact (May 98) 
Star Trek: the Next Generation/X-Men: Planet X novel (continued from Star Trek/X-Men: Second Contact) 


There may be a few more we've missed, but -- if at all possible, please try to confirm before posting that: (a) the book actually EXISTS, and (b) that you have the right title order (for example, Wolverine/Witchblade and Witchblade/Wolverine are two different things). 

-Jeph!

Last edited by jephyork on 29 May 2004 12:44 am; edited 9 times in total

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Posted: 21 Apr 2004 03:21 pm    
By John Simons

A few more, blatantly stolen from the Unofficial Handbook of Marvel Comics Creators: 

Marvel/Crusade: 
Shi/Daredevil (1997) 
Daredevil/Shi (1997) 

Marvel/DC: 
Superman vs. Spider-Man (1976) 
Batman vs. the Incredible Hulk (1981) 
Amazing Spider-Man and Superman (1981) 
Uncanny X-Men/New Teen Titans (1982) 
Batman/Punisher: Lake of Fire (1994) 
Punisher/Batman Deadly Knights (1994) 
Spider-Man/Batman vol.1 (1995) 
Galactus vs. Darkseid: The Hunger (1995) 
Green Lantern/Silver Surfer (1995) 
Batman/Captain America (1996) 
Silver Surfer/Superman (1997) 
Batman/Spider-Man (1997) 
Daredevil/Batman (1997) 
Incredible Hulk vs. Superman (1999) 
Batman/Daredevil (1999) 
Superman/Fantastic Four (1999) 

Marvel/Image: 
Prophet/Spider-Man (1995) 
Spider-Man/Gen13 (1996) 
Hulk/Pitt (1997) 
Gladiator/Supreme (1997) 
Spider-Man/Badrock (1997) 
Gen13/Fantastic Four (2001) 

Marvel/Malibu: 
Rune/Silver Surfer (1995) 
Ultraforce/Avengers Prelude (1995) 
Avengers/Ultraforce (1995) 
Ultraforce/Avengers (1995) 
Exiles vs. the X-Men (1995) 
Conan vs. Rune (1995) 
The Phoenix Resurrection: Genesis (1995) 
The Phoenix Resurrection: Revelations (1995) 
Mutants vs. Ultras: First Encounters (1995) 
Prime vs. the Incredible Hulk (1995) 
Rune vs. Venom (1995) 
Ultraforce/Spider-Man (1996) 
The Phoenix Resurrection: Aftermath (1996) 
Night Man vs. Gambit (1996) 
Prime/Captain America (1996) 
The Phoenix Resurrection (1996) 

Also, we could list the issues of Quasar where "Buried Alien" (Barry Allen) appears! 

I just remembered, various Image characters appear in the 13th issues of the 4 Heroes Reborn titles, A2, IM2, CA2, and FF2!

Last edited by John Simons on 22 Apr 2004 01:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 21 Apr 2004 03:22 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

To add a few 

- Marvel/DC: 
Batman/Punisher 
Punisher/Batman 
Darkseid vs Galactus 
Spider-Man and Batman 
Green Lantern/Silver Surfer (lead-in to DC versus Marvel, the glowing cardboard box is seen on the last page) 
Batman/Captain America 
Silver Surfer/Superman 
Daredevil/Batman 
Batman/Spider-Man 
Incredible Hulk vs Superman 
Batman/Daredevil 
Superman/Fantastic Four (big format 13 by 10 inch, mentions Access) 


- Marvel/Image: 
Spider-Man/Gen13 
Hulk/Pitt 

- Marvel/Archie: 
The Punisher meets Archie 

- Marvel/Crusade: 
Daredevil/Shi 
Shi/Daredevil 
Wolverine/Shi (there was supposed to be a conclusion to this, but I never saw it) 

- Marvel/Maximum Press 
Spider-Man/Badrock #1A-1B 
Gladiator/Supreme 

- Marvel/Event: 
Punisher/Painkiller Jane 

This is what i have, that is not on Jeph's list
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Apr 2004 07:40 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Dear God ... Shi/Wolverine. What nonsense. 

It started in Shi #0 with a final-page cameo of Wolvie, continued into "Wolverine/Shi: Dark Night of Judgment", where they fought for twenty pages ... and THAT continued into the first of Crusade's Battlebooks. Oh yes, Battlebooks -- some sort of game you played with dice, hit points, and twenty pages of pin-ups with various "moves" on them. ("Wolverine slashes!" "Shi kicks!") 

There were two of them -- "Shi: Judgment Night" and "Wolverine: Judgment Night", and I don't remember if they had any actual story in them at all, or if they were 100% Battlebooks. But, basically, the crossover never really ENDED -- it just degenerated into a game. 

Even if all single-universe intercompany crossovers were considered canon, I doubt this one would be included. It's basically a big full-comic ad for Battlebooks. 

Ugh. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Apr 2004 12:38 am 
By JLH

John Simons wrote: 
Batman/Punisher: Lake of Fire (1994) 


Azrael-Bats mentioned Jigsaw, whom he fought in this story, as one of the villains he's faced, in an issue of Batman during Knightquest. So it seems in-continuity for DC, at least. 

John Simons wrote: 
Punisher/Batman Deadly Knights (1994) 


Jigsaw's new "pretty boy" look, introduced here, sticks around, featured in "Punisher" (1995), newly stitched as a result of what happens here. 

John Simons wrote: 
Spider-Man/Ultraforce (1995) 


Long before Slingers, this book featured "alternate interiors". So there's two versions of it, an A and a B. 

John Simons wrote: 
Conan vs. Rune (1995) 


This special tied in with an issue of Conan's current comic at that time, and the magazine format run, Conan The Savage. One was a prequel to it, one a follow-up.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Apr 2004 07:13 am    Post subject: Further to Conan vs. Rune.........
By Scathach80

Further to Conan vs. Rune, I should mention that Conan#5 has Conan recalling his battle with Rune while speaking to a Frost Giant named Hanar. 

Conan the Savage#4 takes place while Conan is king of Aquilonia, and advertisements state that it takes place 20 years after the events of Conan vs. Rune. 

(Conan#4 only has a one page prologue which has Rune seeing Conan in a vision. That is it.)

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Apr 2004 11:21 am    Post subject: Intercompany cross-overs
By Jason Doty

Why don't we start with the ones that are definately universe to universe first. 

JLA/ Avengers 
Superman/Fantastic Four 
Silver Surfer/ Superman 
Green Lantern/ Silver Surfer 
All Access 
Marvel vs. DC 
Unlimited Access 
Youngblood/ X-Force 
X-Force/Youngblood 
Star Trek/ X-Men 
Star Trek TNG/ X-Men 
Top Cow's Devil's Reign

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 07:39 pm
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

My initial post has been updated to reflect the full list so far -- and has some questions you folks might be able to answer. Check it out. 

-Jeph! 

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 10:17 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

jephyork wrote: 

>>>
- Questionable: 
Prophet/Spider-Man (1995) (does it exist?) 
<<<


It's not ringing any bells with me, for whatever that's worth. 


jephyork wrote: 

>>>
- Marvel/Top Cow: 
Silver Surfer/Witchblade (Wizard #1/2) 
Weapon Zero/Silver Surfer (Jan. 97) 
Cyblade/Ghost Rider (Jan./Feb. 97) 
Ghost Rider/Ballistic (Feb. 97) 
Ballistic/Wolverine (Feb. 97) 
Wolverine/Witchblade (Mar. 97) 
Witchblade/Elektra (Mar. 97) 
Elektra/Cyblade (Mar. 97) 
Silver Surfer/Weapon Zero (May 97) 
<<<


Weapon Zero #10 and Cyberforce (vol. 2) #30 are Devil's Reign Interludes. I don't remember where these books are set in thecrossover, but I would guess between Ballistic/Wolverine and Wolverine/Witchblade. It's been awhile since I read the books. Cyberforce (vol. 2) #29 leads into the Devil's Reign crossover. The crossover is much more readable with these issues. I don't know about any other preludes/interludes/epilouges. I just stumbled across these. 

jephyork wrote: 

>>>
- Marvel/Archie: 
Archie meets the Punisher 
the Punisher meets Archie 
<<<


This is the same book with a different cover, if I remember correctly. 

jephyork wrote: 

>>>
- Marvel/Malibu: 
Ultraforce/Avengers Prelude (July 95) (is this a flipbook from UF #11? Does #11 exist?) 
<<<


I think this is as close to Ultraforce #11 as there is. 


jephyork wrote: 

>>>
- Questionable: 
the Silver Surfer/Rune? (1995) (is this a separate release from Rune/Silver Surfer?) 
<<<


It's a flip book with Rune/Silver Surfer. 

jephyork wrote: 

>>>
the Phoenix Resurrection: Red Shift #0 (what is this? A reprint of the 7-part prelude?) 
<<<


It's got a different cover scan on Milehigh Comics from The Phoenix Resurection #0. 

jephyork wrote: 

>>>
the Phoenix Resurrection: Aftermath (Jan. 96) (takes place in the future  I don't think any Marvel characters appear) 
<<<


Wolverine and the Beast are on the cover for what it's worth.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Apr 2004 01:41 am    
By John Simons

Andy Holcombe wrote: 

>>>
jephyork wrote: 

>>>
- Marvel/Malibu: 
Ultraforce/Avengers Prelude (July 95) (is this a flipbook from UF #11? Does #11 exist?) 
<<<


I think this is as close to Ultraforce #11 as there is. 
<<<
 


Indeed. The copy I have says #1 on the cover (in the top left corner box with the price), however the indicia says: "Ultraforce/Avengers Prelude Vol. 1, Number 11"

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 May 2004 09:20 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

A few Ultraverse notes: 

- Phoenix Resurrection: Red Shift #0 does exist, and it's a separate release from Phoenix Resurrection #0. They both contain the same material (the 7 3-page preludes to the PR crossover) -- however, PR #0 (not PR:RS #0) has an additional 5-page epilogue. PR:RS #0 is entirely a reprint book. 

- the Black September Preview exists as well, but it's all pin-ups of upcoming Infinity books -- no canon material at all. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 May 2004 11:05 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Updated my initial post to include Paul B.'s list of Malibu books featuring Marvel characters. Thanks, Paul! 

By the way ... any reason UltraForce v2 #3 isn't on the list? Does it somehow not contain a Black Knight appearance, or do you just not own it and you can't check? 

Ditto Rune v2 #4-5 ... no appearances, or do you not own them? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 10:34 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Added the Heroes Reborn #13 issues. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2004 12:56 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

How could I forget Sovereign Seven #2-3? 

Wolvie, Kitty, Illyana and Lockheed all pop up in cameos at Crossroads, the coffeehouse that exists across all dimensions at once. 

Also, while I'm on the topic -- Showcase '95 #12 featured a Sovereign Seven prelude, and made direct reference to the events of the X-Men/Teen Titans crossover. In that crossover, the X-Men and Titans (who exist on the same earth, which is why the book is considered non-canon) were strapped into a device called the Psychon-Wave Amplifier, which was used to essentially re-create Dark Phoenix. At the end of the book, Darkseid was imprisoned in The Wall, a barrier at the edge of the universe. 

In Showcase '95 #12, Maitresse (Cascade's evil mother) is summoned from her home dimension to the site of the abandoned Psychon-Wave Amplifier -- and she drains the residual energy of the last people that were strapped to it in order to free Darkseid from The Wall. 

Now, the Showcase issue is canon as far as the DCU goes -- and yet it ties up plot points from a book we DON'T consider canon. (I suppose we have to assume that in the DCU, Darkseid was imprisoned in The Wall in some OTHER off-panel story involving the Psychon-Wave Amplifier.) 

But, combine THIS DC-canon story that makes reference to a non-canon crossover book -- and the reference in "Unlimited Access" #1, published by Marvel, to a non-canon crossover book... 

...well, maybe there's more precedent than we think for being able to argue that "earth-crossover" could conceivably be, in some form, canon. 

A topic for another day... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2004 02:31 am    Post subject: Spider-Man and Joker
By dimadick

"...well, maybe there's more precedent than we think for being able to argue that "earth-crossover" could conceivably be, in some form, canon." 

You might want to note that in DC versus Marvel #1, the Joker recognizes Spider-Man but comments on his costume change. This was probably a reference to then recent Spider-Man and Batman #1 (September, 1995).

			*	*	*

Thread 52

Posted: 25 May 2004 08:08 pm    Post subject: NM 48-FB AND DOFP Stuff
By Dhall

I need someone (Jeph maybe) to look at NM 48-FB with me. 

In it we see (in 2013) 
Wolverine fighting Captain America, with other members of the X-Men, Avengers, and the Brotherhood in the panel. 

These characters (besides Wolverine and Colossus) need to have 2013 entries added. 

From left to right: 
Colossus, unknown woman in the air (Rogue? the hair looks like it could be hers), Storm (on her back, on ground, the mohawk gives it away), Wolverine, Captain America, Tigra, Wasp, Blob, Hercules, Iron Man, Captain Marvel II, Mockingbird?, Hawkeye 


Also in a later FB panel, we see the deaths of Reed Richards, the Human Torch, and Captain America. 

If someone whould please check the panel in question, for the characters that I am unsure of, it would be appreciated. 

Needed additions: 

Storm 2013 
Phoenix 1 
**NM 48-FB 

new listings: 

Pyro 2013 
NM 48-FB 

Captain America 2013 
NM 48-FB 

Wasp 2013 
NM 48-FB 

Tigra 2013 
NM 48-FB 

Iron Man 2013 
NM 48-FB 

Blob 2013 
NM 48-FB 

Hercules 2013 
NM 48-FB 

Captain Marvel II 2013 
NM 48-FB 

Hawkeye 2013 
NM 48-FB 

Mr. Fanstatic 2013 
NM 48-FB 

Human Torch 2013 
NM 48-FB 

Possible additions: 

Mockingbird 2013 
NM 48-FB 

Rogue 2013 
NM 48-FB 



Also, so that it doesn't get forgotten about in the WDFp topic: 

Cannonball 2013 
NM 48 

Mirage 2013 
NM 48 

Brightwind 2013 
NM 48 

Lila Cheney 2013 
NM 48 

Should be deleted: 
BANSHEE 2013 
NM@ 6 

This character was only a projection of Franklin Richards will, and not actually presnt in the past. 


New listings from Excalibur 66-67: 

Albion 2015 
XCAL 66 

Dark Angel 2015 
XCAL 66 
XCAL 67 

Killpower 2015 
XCAL 66 
XCAL 67 

Arthur (Nigel Orpington-Smythe) 2015 
XCAL 66 
XCAL 67 

Grace 2015 
XCAL 66 
XCAL 67 

Yes 2015, not 2013. Excal 66-67 are set in 2015. 

IN addition: 

Tangerine 2013 
Xcal 94 (set in 2013) 
**Xcal 66 (set in 2015) 
**Xcal 67 (set in 2015) 



Dave H

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Posted: 25 May 2004 09:36 pm    
By Starman

Are grave stones BTS-appearences? Then we need to take a look at the panel of the gravesite in UX 141...
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2004 10:26 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Starman wrote: 
>>>
Are grave stones BTS-appearences? 
<<<


Not unless/until they're resurrected. 


watching: lou dobbs

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2004 10:35 pm    
By Starman

Not even people that have had earlier appearences? Like for example Human Torch 2013 who's only earlier chronological appearence seems to be in NM 48-FB. His grave is in UX 141.
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2004 10:57 pm    
By Dhall

What if we see them die on panel? Would it count as a corpse-BTS? 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2004 11:19 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

No, because at some point, the body becomes dust; it doesn't exist anymore. It's the site of the grave that plays a role in the story, not the body, not the character. 


watching: larry king

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2004 11:47 pm    
By John Simons

Not that I necessarily agree that alternate-universe characters who appear in a single FB panel deserve a MCP listing, but... 

Dhall wrote: 

>>>
In it we see (in 2013) 
Wolverine fighting Captain America, with other members of the X-Men, Avengers, and the Brotherhood in the panel. 

These characters (besides Wolverine and Colossus) need to have 2013 entries added. 

From left to right: 
Colossus, unknown woman in the air (Rogue? the hair looks like it could be hers), Storm (on her back, on ground, the mohawk gives it away), Wolverine, Captain America, Tigra, Wasp, Blob, Hercules, Iron Man, Captain Marvel II, Mockingbird?, Hawkeye 
<<<
 


I can't help you on the unknown woman; Rogue seems as good a guess as any. Did she ever wear swashbuckler-type boots like that? 

Not only do I disagree that the character laying on the ground is Storm, I don't even think he is lying on his back. Looks like Black Knight III to me, laying on his stomach. What you see as a mohawk is that fin-thing on the top of his helmet. 

You're right about Mockingbird.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2004 12:43 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Re: gravestones -- we can't honestly be sure that characters' bodies are buried beneath the stones with their names. Especially during a mass genocide event like the DoFP future -- you'd think the Sentinels would just atomize a bunch of the heroes, like they did with Franklin in UX #141, and some prison groundskeeper would just make a nice memorial headstone. 

So no, no BTS appearances for headstones. 

(The completist in me says: rats.) 

And -- is the NM #48 future the same as the DoFP future? I mean, I agree that it's pretty similar, but I don't remember any bits about the heroes being ordered to take down the mutants in any other DoFP story. And it ends with Magma raising a huge volcano in Manhattan -- does that get contradicted by any later DoFP stories? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2004 02:51 am    Post subject: Black Knights
By dimadick

"Looks like Black Knight III to me" 

Black Knight III was Eobar Garrington, active during the Third Crusade (1189 - 1192). Perhaps you instead mean Black Knight V/ Dane Whitman who is active with the Avengers?

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2004 05:30 am  
By Starman

I just think that gravestone might be important for chronology reasons because they establish that the character is dead, thus helping one place the character's other already seen, and their future, appearences. 

I think that only the first time one sees the gravestone is neccessary thou, listing everytime would be a bit redundant.
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2004 08:46 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Starman wrote: 
>>>
I just think that gravestone might be important for chronology reasons because they establish that the character is dead 
<<<


But that's a plot point, and again, not part of our charter. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 May 2004 10:25 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
I can't help you on the unknown woman; Rogue seems as good a guess as any. Did she ever wear swashbuckler-type boots like that? 

Not only do I disagree that the character laying on the ground is Storm, I don't even think he is lying on his back. Looks like Black Knight III to me, laying on his stomach. What you see as a mohawk is that fin-thing on the top of his helmet. 

You're right about Mockingbird. 
<<<


Thanks! I'll take another look. If it is Rogue, then she's there with the Brotherhood, not the X-Men. If the character wasn't all yellow, it would be much easier to figure out. 

Dave H

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Posted: 26 May 2004 10:37 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
And -- is the NM #48 future the same as the DoFP future? I mean, I agree that it's pretty similar, but I don't remember any bits about the heroes being ordered to take down the mutants in any other DoFP story. And it ends with Magma raising a huge volcano in Manhattan -- does that get contradicted by any later DoFP stories?  
<<<


Well, if it isn't, then Wolverine 2013 and Colossus 2013shouldn't have this in their chronology. 

I agree that we're on dicey territory, as to which stories can fit into DOFP and which are similar but alternate (alternate) futures. 

However, I can't see why it couldn't fit. Keep in mind, that NM 48 would have to be one of the latter stories to occur in the timeline, after UX 141 and 142. Now does it contradict xcal 66 and 67, or possibly occur at the same time or afterwards (if the sentinels weren't all wiped out then?) 

My fear, is that it's all going to come down to a judgement call in the end. 
And to really boggle the mind, what if one of these stories occurs in a future that diverged from DOFP due to Rachel travelling back in time? 

heh heh..... 

Dave H

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Posted: 26 May 2004 12:27 pm    
By John Simons

dimadick wrote: 
>>>
Black Knight III was Eobar Garrington, active during the Third Crusade (1189 - 1192). Perhaps you instead mean Black Knight V/ Dane Whitman who is active with the Avengers? 
<<<


Nope, I definitely meant ol' Eobar. In the DOFP timeline, he spent several millenia asleep in a cave after being trapped by a fairy, and he when he awoke the Brothergood convinced him that they were the modern day Round Table and he joined up. 

Not buying that? Okay, I meant Whitman. Guess I should have rechecked the listings, but in my head all I could remember was Sir Percy, the evil Knight from the Masters of Evil, and Dane. Completely blanked about those other two. 

So I guess this means that the new Black Knight that Austen just introduced in "Lionheart of Avalon" is the seventh of that name?! Sheesh. Marvel could assemble an entire team just of Black Knights.

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Posted: 26 May 2004 12:53 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I thought Austen just introduced a new CAPTAIN BRITAIN. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 May 2004 01:00 pm    
By Dhall

What was wrong with the old one?

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Posted: 26 May 2004 03:18 pm    Post subject: More Days of Future Past Additions
By Enda80

Most of these are future versions of Marvel UK characters such as Killpower and Motormouth. 

ARNHEIM, STACY 2015 
XCAL 67-FB 

BREEZE 2015 
XCAL 67-FB 

DEATH's HEAD 2015 
XCAL 67-FB 

LIGER 2015 
XCAL 67-FB 

MOTORMOUTH 2015 
XCAL 67-FB 

ULTRAMARINE 2015 
XCAL 67-FB 

UNION JACK 2015 
XCAL 67-FB 

Yes 2015, not 2013. Excal 66-67 are set in 2015. 

By the way, something interesting. Most of the above characters are based on Marvel UK characters. Ironically, their Earth-616 present counterparts do not have entries on the Project!

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Posted: 26 May 2004 04:00 pm    
By Dhall

So far, no one has stepped up and provided info for the various Marvel UK issues that aren't captain Britain related. 

Dave H

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Posted: 26 May 2004 07:49 pm    
By Starman

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Most of these are future versions of Marvel UK characters such as Killpower and Motormouth. 
<<<

Some of those, for example Liger and Death's Head are time-travelling. Is it sure they're future versions? 

Dave Hall wrote: 
>>>
So far, no one has stepped up and provided info for the various Marvel UK issues that aren't captain Britain related. 
<<<


I can try to provide info for some of the Death's Head II and Warheads issues. By the way I can add that DH II has met X-Men's Blue team it what seems to be a canonical story. And Liger of the Warheads has met Wolverine twice, both in a barfight and in X-Men's Australia base, it was Wolverine who gave Liger his horribly scared face, by his own request also, thou he wasn't aware of that at the time. Time-travel...  *heheheh*
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

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Posted: 27 May 2004 07:36 am    
By John Simons

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I thought Austen just introduced a new CAPTAIN BRITAIN. 
<<<


That would be bad enough, right? But no, one of the villains of the story is a new Black Knight, who works for Morgan le Fey and spends most of the storyline disguised as Thunderball.

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Posted: 27 May 2004 07:37 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Or might actually BE Thunderball, transformed into a new Black Knight. It's very hard to tell.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 May 2004 10:40 am    Post subject: Marvel UK
By dimadick

"the Brothergood " 

As opposed to the Brotherhood? 

"Completely blanked about those other two." 

Black Knight II/Sir Raston was suppossedly active in the late 6th/early 7th century but the whole of his appearances are with the Anachronauts of Kang. Black Knight III spend most of his appearances being possessed by the time-traveling spirit of Black Knight V. They are easy to forget. But imagine my surprise to hear of Black Knight III returning, following the on-panel destruction of his body in Avengers #226. 

"So I guess this means that the new Black Knight that Austen just introduced in "Lionheart of Avalon" is the seventh of that name?! Sheesh. Marvel could assemble an entire team just of Black Knights." 

This identity seems to be similar to the "Starman" identity of the DC Universe. Users include (without counting alternate future successors) : 

1) Theodore Henry Knight, starting on April 1941. 
2) Dr. Charles McNider/ Dr. Mid-Nite I, starting in flashbacks set in 1951. 
3) Bruce Wayne/Batman, starting on September 1957. 
4) A supervillain, starting on December, 1960. 
5) Mikaal Tomas, starting on March, 1976. 
6) Prince Gavyn of Kranaltine, starting on January, 1980. 
7) William Payton, starting on October, 1988. 
8) David Knight, starting on September, 1990. 
9) Jack Knight, starting on September, 1994. 

"I thought Austen just introduced a new CAPTAIN BRITAIN." "What was wrong with the old one?" 

Well he is now married and settled down as the ruler of Otherworld. Finding a replacement to take up his superheroe duties was not that unreasonable. However Austen instead had Brian Braddock learning that Morgan Le Fey wants to kill Captain Britain. Apparently this is motivation enough for Brian to turn Kelsey Leigh into the new Captain Britain. 

"By the way, something interesting. Most of the above characters are based on Marvel UK characters. Ironically, their Earth-616 present counterparts do not have entries on the Project!" 

Death's Head and most of his supporting characters have profiles and chronological listings in the "Appendix to the Marvel Handbook". Perhaps it could be used as reference material? See: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/appmuk.htm 

"Or might actually BE Thunderball, transformed into a new Black Knight. It's very hard to tell." 

Dr. Eliot Franklin (at least in his Spider-Man appearances) prides on being a weapons' designer and being better educated than most of his allies. Any of this indicated in his Avengers' dialogue?

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Posted: 29 May 2004 09:34 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 

I can't help you on the unknown woman; Rogue seems as good a guess as any. Did she ever wear swashbuckler-type boots like that? 

Not only do I disagree that the character laying on the ground is Storm, I don't even think he is lying on his back. Looks like Black Knight III to me, laying on his stomach. What you see as a mohawk is that fin-thing on the top of his helmet. 

You're right about Mockingbird. 


It could be the Black Knight (I'm not that familiar with the top of Dane's head. Your right that it does look like a man with a cape lying on his stomach, now that I look again.) 

Also the woman in the air, is definitly wearing the pants and boots from a New Mutants uniform. It doesn't really look like she is flying, more like she was thrown up in the air for some reason. 

It's not Dani because she was alive in this future. That means it is either Illyana, Rahne, Xi'an, or Amara. 
As Karma and Wolfsbane are listed on the poster on page 1 as terminated it is most likely one of them, as every one in the Fb was supposed to be captured, and most later terminated or thrown in camps. 

I suggest that it's probably Wolfsbane, based on the fact that the character has shorter hair than Karma usuallly wears (in this period.) 

Dave H

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Posted: 30 May 2004 04:37 am 
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

dimadick wrote: 
>>>
Dr. Eliot Franklin (at least in his Spider-Man appearances) prides on being a weapons' designer and being better educated than most of his allies. Any of this indicated in his Avengers' dialogue? 
<<<


Oh, he's completely out of character, but in fairness, that's the point. There ARE a couple of lines which suggest that the character is in the advanced stages of a transformation into the Black Knight, rather than being an impostor who replaced Thunderball at some point in past. 

Frankly, though, it's a lovely Sunday morning, and I can't bring myself to wade through that godawful storyline again in search of quotes.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 53

Posted: 28 May 2004 03:35 pm    Post subject: Elektra: Assassin/Daredevil additions
By DCW3

A few additions from Elektra: Assassin and some related Daredevil issues: 

First, none of John Garrett's E:A appearances are listed. 

GARRETT, JOHN 
**E:A 6-FB 
**{E:A 2-FB} 
**E:A 2 
**E:A 3 
**E:A 3-FB 
**E:A 3 
**E:A 3-FB 
**E:A 3 
**E:A 4 
**E:A 5 
**E:A 6 
**E:A 7 
**E:A 7-FB 
**E:A 7 
**E:A 8-FB 
**E:A 8 
DD 319 
.... 

And if you want to get technical about it, the fractured chronology of the series should probably be reflected in Elektra's chronology: 

Instead of: 

ELEKTRA 
.... 
BIZADV 28 
E:A 1 
E:A 2 
E:A 3 
E:A 4 
E:A 5 
E:A 6 
E:A 7 
E:A 8 
W2 103-FB 
.... 

it ought to be: 

.... 
BIZADV 28 
E:A 1-FB 
E:A 1 
E:A 2 
E:A 2-FB-BTS 
E:A 2 
E:A 3-FB 
E:A 3 
E:A 3-FB 
E:A 3 
E:A 4 
E:A 5 
E:A 6 
E:A 7 
E:A 7-FB 
E:A 7 
E:A 8-FB 
E:A 8 
W2 103-FB 
.... 

Stick is missing some flashbacks from DD 190 and E:A 1 involving Elektra joining his group, training, and getting kicked out. Elektra's chronology places these in the space between ELEK -1 and W2 103-FB, so that's where I'm putting them in Stick's chronology: 

STICK 
.... 
ELEK -1 
**DD 190-FB 
**E:A 1-FB 
**DD 190-FB 
**E:A 1-FB 
W2 103-FB 
{DD 176} 
DD 177 
**DD 187 
DD 188 
DD 189 
.... 

Stick's associate, Stone, is missing his early appearances: 

STONE 
**DD 190-FB 
**{DD 187} 
**DD 188 
**DD 189 
**DD 190 
DD 296 
.... 

Also missing appearances are some of the other members of Stick's group: 

CLAW 
**DD 187 
**DD 188 
**DD 189 
DD:FFG 
.... 

*SHAFT 
**DD 187 
**DD 188 
**DD 189 

I put these guys in this post because we see some of the members of Stick's group (Claw, Flame, Shaft, Star, Stone and Wing) in the flashbacks in DD 190 and E:A 1--but not all six in the same scene and not individually identified. Without their weapons, they can't be differentiated from each other, and it's impossible to tell who exactly appears. 
In E:A 1-FB, it's stongly implied all six are present, but we never see more than five at once, and nobody is personally identified. Is there a way to note these appearances? Do you give them all BTS notations, even though some are actually seen?

Last edited by DCW3 on 30 May 2004 03:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 28 May 2004 09:44 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

DCW3 wrote: 
>>>
ELEKTRA 
.... 
BIZADV 28 
E:A 1-FB 
E:A 1 
E:A 2-FB-BTS 
E:A 2 
<<<


What is the nature of the behind-the-scenes appearance in E:A 2-FB? 


watching: seinfeld

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Posted: 29 May 2004 01:48 pm    
By DCW3

The main plotline in E:A 2 involves Elektra watching a tape taken from an implant inside John Garrett's head that records not only what Garrett sees but also his thoughts. During the course of Garrett's activities--which Elektra is studying from a vantage point of several days later--Elektra continually menaces him: breaking into his apartment, cutting off his hand in an office, and finally blowing up most of his body. Several times in this sequence, especially when she cuts off Garrett's hand, Elektra has to be directly off panel, but she is never actually seen in the flashback.

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Posted: 30 May 2004 04:39 pm    
By DCW3

I edited my first post with a correction to Elektra's chronology I'd left out before (the first E:A 2 listing). 

Here are the listings for the rest of the supporting characters from E:A (who aren't already in the MCP). I figured I didn't need to do full writeups of the issues since they're already in Elektra and Fury's chronologies. As per Jeph's post a couple weeks ago, I'm just listing everybody who seems to qualify: 

BEAKER, HAROLD 
E:A 3 
E:A 5 
E:A 6 
E:A 6-FB 
E:A 6 
E:A 7-FB 

BEAST (the Hand's patron demon) 
E:A 1-FB 
E:A 4 
E:A 5 
E:A 7 
E:A 8-FB 

(The Unofficial Handbook's Master List says that it also appears in Elektra: Glimpse & Echo #4, but that issue's not in the MCP, and I don't have it. 

Since this Beast has been around for millions of years, maybe Hank McCoy would be Beast II? I'm not quite sure how the MCP does Roman numerals.) 

CATTIVO, EUGENE 
E:A 2 

CHUCK (not his real name...he's a cloned maintenance dwarf who follows Arthur Perry around, and "Chuck" is what Perry decides to call him. This could probably be considered a codename.) 
E:A 6 
E:A 7 
E:A 8-FB 

DANZIGER, MARK 
E:A 2 

GONZALEZ, JULIO 
E:A 1-FB 
E:A 2-FB 

HUEVOS, CARLOS (President of San Concepcion) 
E:A 1-FB 

MCBRYDE, CHASTITY 
E:A 6-FB 
{E:A 5} 
E:A 6 
E:A 7-FB 
E:A 7 
E:A 8-FB 
E:A 8 

PERRY, ARTHUR 
E:A 2-FB 
E:A 4 
E:A 6-FB-BTS (surgeons are shown operating on him in a video recording, but he's not actually seen) 
E:A 6 
E:A 7 
E:A 8-FB 

REICH, AMBASSADOR 
E:A 1-FB 
E:A 3-FB 

WILLING, SEN. BOB 
E:A 4-BTS (on the phone) 
E:A 5-FB 

WIND, KEN 
E:A 3-FB 
E:A 4 
E:A 6 
E:A 7
E:A 8-FB 
E:A 8 

WRECK, MARION 
E:A 3-BTS (we hear a report he dictates but do not see him) 
E:A 6

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Thread 54

Posted: 30 May 2004 11:26 pm    Post subject: Master Pandemonium and Mephisto
By captamr

West Coast Avengers #15 continues the origin of Master Pandemonium (yet another lame anti-hero with potential never realized), pg.4 pn. 3  6. Pn. 2 is actually the FB from WCA2 9 already listed. Its kind of significant as it further explains Master Ps motives and it also involves Mephisto: 

MASTER PANDEMONIUM 
WCA2 9  FB 
*WCA2 15  FB 
{WCA2 4} 


MEPHISTO 
WCA2 9  FB 
*WCA2 15  FB 
MEPHV.1
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 55

Posted: 28 May 2004 02:00 pm    Post subject: What's coming from Marvel in August...
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Here's the latest previews from Marvel, for the month of August, (so we can be prepared chronology-wise for what's to come): 

http://comics.toonzone.net/solicitations/2004-08/marvel.php 

Okay, so here's what needs to be taken into consideration right off the bat: 

Thor: Son of Asgard is now an apparent ongoing series, not a miniseries. So I guess this confirms that Marvel wants this to be the "new canon" in regards to Thor's history, (the source of much debate lately, especially in regards to Sif). 

Hey! Fantastic Four Issue #517 features a tie in to the Avengers Disassemble event! Blessed continuity, how I've long awaited thy return... 

Invanders #1 comes out, launching that new ongoing series... 

And there's a new X-Force series out, with Issue #1 hitting the stands in August! But is it a miniseries or an ongoing series? 

The Runaways series is coming to a close, but is from the looks of things going to be rebooted. We'll probably find out more next month... 

X-Statix is coming to an end as of Issue #26... 

I'm loving that all this continuity is coming together, at least on the seperate Xmen and Avengers sides...now if only the two would acknowledge the existence of each other....
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 28 May 2004 03:03 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
And there's a new X-Force series out, with Issue #1 hitting the stands in August! But is it a miniseries or an ongoing series? 
<<<


I'm pretty certain that it's a mini. 

This interview with Liefeld indicates that it is 6 issues
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2004 09:23 pm    
By Paul Bouricer [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
And there's a new X-Force series out, with Issue #1 hitting the stands in August! But is it a miniseries or an ongoing series? 

I'm pretty certain that it's a mini.  
<<<


Marvel Previews #10 lists it as a "new series" and the first issue is noted as "X-FORCE #1," not "X-FORCE #1 (of 6)," as is customary for limited series listings in Previews. 

It looks like this series is, fittingly, replacing X-Statix on the roster. I plan to collect X-Force, although I don't know how much of Liefeld I can take. 


Quote: 
>>>
Hey! Fantastic Four Issue #517 features a tie in to the Avengers Disassemble event! Blessed continuity, how I've long awaited thy return... 
<<<


Yes, we should see the most recent portion of the calendar really take shape with tight continuity among the following titles: 
Avengers 
Captain America 
Captain America & The Falcon 
Fantastic Four 
Iron Man 
Spectacular Spider-Man 
Thor 
Plus, we may get clues about the placement of other Spidey titles, Invaders, and She-Hulk relative to all this. Let's just hope that the writers don't make continuity blunders that we'll need to explain in typical No Prize fashion. 

Still waiting for next week's (?) Thor #80 to see how the return of classic Thor will fit into the scheme of things. We've already seen this version of Thor several times (Amazing, X-Treme, X-Statix), we've seen panoramic views of Manhattan minus floating Asgard (Fantastic Four, Human Torch), we've seen Asgard back in otherdimensional space (Amazing, X-Statix), we've seen the subject of Asgard over Manhattan dropped (Avengers), and we've seen major Manhattan events that did not involve Asgard (X-Men). It's about time Thor catches up to the rest of the MU.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 May 2004 02:03 am    
By Peter Fabricius

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Marvel Previews #10 lists it as a "new series" and the first issue is noted as "X-FORCE #1," not "X-FORCE #1 (of 6)," as is customary for limited series listings in Previews. 

It looks like this series is, fittingly, replacing X-Statix on the roster. I plan to collect X-Force, although I don't know how much of Liefeld I can take. 
<<< 


Interesting. 

Liefeld on X-Force, multiple cover variants, inter company crossovers, and Venom in his own book. 
Clearly the 1990's have made a comeback. 
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2004 09:07 am 
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Thor: Son of Asgard is now an apparent ongoing series, not a miniseries. So I guess this confirms that Marvel wants this to be the "new canon" in regards to Thor's history, (the source of much debate lately, especially in regards to Sif). 
<<<


I'm very surprised that this series is continuing beyond issue #6. Sales are not particularly good. 

Quote: 
>>>
Hey! Fantastic Four Issue #517 features a tie in to the Avengers Disassemble event! Blessed continuity, how I've long awaited thy return... 
<<<


Oh goody, a line-wide crossover. Hold me back. 

Quote: 
>>>
And there's a new X-Force series out, with Issue #1 hitting the stands in August! But is it a miniseries or an ongoing series? 
<<<


According to interviews with Fabian Nicieza, the position is that they're doing six issues and then they'll see how it goes. So the current status is "indeterminate." 

Quote: 
>>>
The Runaways series is coming to a close, but is from the looks of things going to be rebooted. We'll probably find out more next month... 
<<<


Not next month. The plan is to put out another two digests before starting Runaways vol 2. Quesada has said that the new series will be either late 2004 or early 2005. 

Quote: 
>>>
I'm loving that all this continuity is coming together, at least on the seperate Xmen and Avengers sides...now if only the two would acknowledge the existence of each other.... 
<<<


From a chronology standpoint, sure. But there's a happy medium between completely ignoring the other books and doing a line-wide crossover. Avengers Disassemble is running through seven titles in August alone, and promises to last for four months. Frankly, I find 28-part crossovers a grim and depressing prospect.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 31 May 2004 11:33 am    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Still waiting for next week's (?) Thor #80 to see how the return of classic Thor will fit into the scheme of things. We've already seen this version of Thor several times (Amazing, X-Treme, X-Statix), we've seen panoramic views of Manhattan minus floating Asgard (Fantastic Four, Human Torch), we've seen Asgard back in otherdimensional space (Amazing, X-Statix), we've seen the subject of Asgard over Manhattan dropped (Avengers), and we've seen major Manhattan events that did not involve Asgard (X-Men). It's about time Thor catches up to the rest of the MU. 
<<<


Hey, did you catch the reference to Asgard over Manhatten in Uncanny Xmen 443? Polaris refers to all the stuff New York has gone through lately, and events in Thor are among them! So I guess the Asgard over Manhatten stuff wrapped up before the attack by Magneto on New York... 



Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
From a chronology standpoint, sure. But there's a happy medium between completely ignoring the other books and doing a line-wide crossover. Avengers Disassemble is running through seven titles in August alone, and promises to last for four months. Frankly, I find 28-part crossovers a grim and depressing prospect. 
<<<


It's my understanding that the events happening in the core book, (Avengers) will be reflected in the other titles that have been mentioned. I don't believe this'll be anything like the 90's extravanganza crossover crap, wherein you have to read all "28 issues" to understand the plot, (with part 1 in Avengers, part 2 in Cap. America, part 3 in Thor, etc).
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 11:37 am 
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Hey, did you catch the reference to Asgard over Manhatten in Uncanny Xmen 443? Polaris refers to all the stuff New York has gone through lately, and events in Thor are among them! So I guess the Asgard over Manhatten stuff wrapped up before the attack by Magneto on New York... 
<<<


That would make sense considering when the issues in question were published. 

For the benefit of those not reading THOR, as everyone predicted, Jurgen's final issue of THOR did indeed hit the reset button. Effectively this relegates a huge chunk of his run to alternate-reality status. However, the point of departure is shortly before Asgard was destroyed - everything up to that point remains valid. So Odin is still dead, Thor, is still running Asgard, and Asgard still spent months hovering over New York.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 56

Posted: 29 Apr 2004 11:13 pm    Post subject: Hulk Comic (Marvel UK) #1-5
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Hulk Comic #1-5 
by Marvel Ltd., UK 

Notes: I only have temporal references for the Black Knight stories  I forgot to take them for the new Hulk and SHIELD stories, and I no longer have these issues. I apologize. Anyone else with the issues, feel free to contribute. 


Hulk Comic #1  March 7, 1979  B&W 

Story #1  the Incredible Hulk (untitled, 3p) 

Characters: 
the Hulk 
Ed Edkins 
Cath Edkins ("Catherine"?) 
Leroy Jones 
Tommy Henry 

Synopsis: outside the small town of Arbory, a vicious electrical storm knocks out power  and the Hulk is hit by lightning. His body holds the charge, and he stumbles into town crazed with pain. Meanwhile, two young thugs, Leroy and Tommy, use the pitch-blackness to mug citizens  until the electrified Hulk's arrival causes the streetlights to go on again. Furious at being identified, the thugs shoot Ed Edkins, fire at police, and drive off  but their car hits the Hulk, discharging the electricity. The thugs are killed, and the Hulk wanders back into the woods 

Notes: the early Hulk stories in this series are all of the "Hulk wanders the USA running into trouble" variety. He seems to be the traditional stupid/"savage" Hulk in each story, but I don't know enough about the Hulk's chronology to determine where, if anywhere, these stories best fit  can someone help? 


Story #2  the Black Knight (untitled, 3p) 

Characters: 
the Black Knight V (last in A 226) 
Valinor (the Black Knight's winged horse) (last in A 226) 
Sarah Mumford 
Greymalkin (Sarah's cat) 
Captain Britain (last in M/TU 66, then EXCAL 53-FB, then HC 42/3-FB, then HC 43/2-FB) 
"Modred" (I think we decided that this was really *Mordred* the Evil.) (If so, last in DEF 11) 
Merlyn BTS (revealed in HC #4, Merlyn sent the Black Knight on a quest to Cornwall to find Captain Britain) (last in CB 37) 

Synopsis: outside Cornwall, a helicoptor has a near-miss with the Black Knight, astride his flying horse. The startled pilot crashes, and calls his accident in as a UFO  and a nearby army base launches a plane to intercept it. Meanwhile, old Sarah Mumford, a local eccentric, notes the freak blizzards and strange phenomena that have been happening around Cornwall lately  and how they started when a strange, wandering blond man showed up in the area. And in a darkened castle, the army's transmissions are intercepted by "Modred, prime mover of darkness", who sends winged creatures of his own after the Knight. Converging at the same time, the jet knocks Valinor out of the sky  and Modred's birds swoop in for the kill 

Temporal references: One night  it's a full moon, and Sarah Mumford says it's June  although freak storms and blizzards have been occuring lately, and the ground is covered in snow. 

Notes:"Modred" is noted to be "enthralled by the nether gods". I don't think they get named specifically in this story, but if any are, should they get BTS appearances whenever "Modred" does? Or just for his initial appearance in this storyline? 

Also: I'm going to continue to spell his name "Modred" for these write-ups, but I'm fairly sure that we decided that this character is more properly known as Mordred, the Evil. 


Story #3  Nick Fury, agent of SHIELD (untitled, part 1, 4p) 

Characters: 
Nick Fury 
Dum Dum Dugan 
"the Gaffer" (Sydney A. Levine), SHIELD weaponry expert 
Carlyle Pallis, head of SHIELD's internal security dept. 

Synopsis: Nick Fury is working out, when the equipment suddenly goes crazy  stun beams turn lethal, and a hologram image of seven stars is projected into the training room. Fury escapes and questions his men as to who reprogrammed the room, but the heli-carrier is suddenly attacked by seven missiles  whose explosion pattern matches the seven stars Fury saw earlier 

Notes: I don't know enough about SHIELD's chronology to determine where this 7-issue story (and later original storylines) best fit, but it's during a time when Nick, Dum Dum, Gabe Jones, and the Contessa are all working for SHIELD aboard the Helicarrier, and Nick is seeing a woman named Laura Brown  can someone help? Is anything wrong with a publication-order placement of between M/TIO@4 and CA 237? 


Story #4  reprint of Tales to Astonish #27 (part 1, 3p, recut?) 

Notes: Many issues of Hulk Comic, and presumably other UK weeklies at this time, had a tactic of cutting up the panels of the US issues they reprinted -- re-cropping and juggling them around, dropping subplots and unnneccesary moments, to fit more panels on each page and more story in each 3-page segment. As a result, these reprints are far from complete. 

Story #5  Night Raven (untitled, 3p) 

Characters: 
Night Raven 
Granacci 

Synopsis: 1930s  a nighttime meeting of city crimelords is infilitrated by Night Raven, who kidnaps Granacci and drags him to the roof. The other mobsters arrive on the roof and shoot down the cowled figure, only to find it's Granacci! Night-Raven has switched clothes  the mobsters race back downstairs where they left their other associate, but it is too late  the mark of Night Raven is burned into his forehead

Last edited by jephyork on 30 Apr 2004 12:28 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 29 Apr 2004 11:15 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Hulk Comic #2  March 14, 1979  B&W 

I don't have the issue at all. Can anyone help me out? 

Stories: 

Hulk (new, 3p) 
Contact! (new  comedy strip, 2p) 
SHIELD part 2 (new, 3p) 
reprint of Tales to Astonish #27 (part 2, recut?, 3p) 
Night Raven (new, 3p) 
reprint of Incredible Hulk v2 #161 (part 1, recut, 3p) 

(no Black Knight story this issue) 

Notes: from what I can tell from the later SHIELD stories, apparently in this issue Pallis is killed, and SHIELD discovers that the missile attack came from North Africa  possibly Cairo itself. Anyone with the issue, feel free to pitch in.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2004 02:52 am    
By SeanCurtin

Marvel Appendix profiles on a couple of characters from Hulk Comic #2: 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/carlpall.htm (Carlysle Pallis) 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/howardhulkuk.htm (the main character from Contact!) 

According to the latter page, Contact! is a reprint (probably truncated) of a story from TOD 6/2 which was also reprinted in SOS 8/2. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2004 11:06 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

My previous analysis of Olshevsky's work for the Avengers Calendar places Captain Britain's appearance in the middle segment of H2 250 in March and the Black Knight's appearance in A 226 in May. HC 1/2, of course, occurs after A 226, and that would mean Braddock's appearance in HC 1/2 would be after H2 250, not before, as currently in the MCP. Would it work for Captain Britain's chronology to have H2 250 occur before the HC stories (and after M/TU 66, HC 42/2-FB, and HC 43/2-FB -- which I have earlier in March)? 

With A 226 occuring in May, it's great that HC 1/2 is supposed to occur in "June." My analysis places COC 1 in June as well. Now the question: 
Do all of Captain Britain's appearances in the second stories of HC 1-46 need to occur before COC 1? Obviously, the initial storyline uniting Captain Britain and the Black Knight must, as they are seen together in COC 1. But does the passage of time in HC 1/2-46/2 allow both HC 1/2 and COC 1 to happen in June? Or can COC 1-3 be inserted between storylines in HC? 

As far as Nick Fury goes, I don't see any real problem with the placement you suggest, although it would mean that this story occurs nearly a year (in the MU) before the Captain Britain story, not that there's anything wrong with that. This would place Laura Brown here between NFAOS 15 and S-W 13. What I don't know is if Fury and Brown were still an item after NFAOS 15 (and it would have to be a long while).
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2004 11:26 am   
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Hulk Comic #3  March 21, 1979  B&W (no issue number on cover) 

Notes: I only have temporal references for the Black Knight stories  I forgot to take them for the other new stories, and I no longer have these issues. I apologize. 


Story #1  the Incredible Hulk (untitled, 3p) 

Characters: 
the Hulk 
Frankie Carson 

Synopsis: in Joyeaux, Mississippi, the Hulk easily puts an end to a bar-brawl he became involved with, and swims off downstream. He spies a young woman, Frankie, fishing and about to be bitten by an alligator. The Hulk saves her and fights the alligator, killing it  and Frankie stops the sheriff from shooting at the Hulk. Art, by the way, by John Bolton. 


Story #2  Black Knight (untitled, part 2, 3p) 

Characters: 
Black Kinght V 
Valinor 
Captain Britain 
"Modred" (Mordred) 
(all last in HC #1/2) 

Synopsis: one of Modred's Hellravens attacks the jet, causing the pilot to bail out over the nearby ocean. The other Hellraven attacks and wounds Valinor, and is killed by the Black Knight. The foundering pilot is pulled from the ocean by the blond stranger, and the Knight seeks shelter for Valinor in an oceanfront cave. Moving deeper into the cave, he discovers a crude shelter, and a heavy wrapped object. Before he can react, though, he is set upon and attacked by the stranger 

Temporal references: early morning, continuing directly from HC #1/2 (which was at night). I'd say that all the action in both issues takes place after midnight, making it all the same "day". 

Notes: the Black Knight kills the Hellraven with his Ebony Blade, graphically spilling its blood  shouldn't that have invoked his Blood Curse or whatnot? Did the blade have a blood curse at the time of A 226? (The chronological placement of this story is inviolate  the Knight appears with CB in "Contest of Champions" between pages of this adventure  so we can't use the lack of a curse as a chronological clue.) Maybe, when sending the Knight on his quest, Merlyn temporarily suspended the curse? 


Story #3  Nick Fury, agent of SHIELD (untitled, part 3, 3p) 

Characters: 
Nick Fury 
Dum Dum Dugan 
Gabe Jones 
the Countess Valentina 
"High Leader" 
Senor Garcia Juanilla 
his chauffeur, Boaz 
Presidente Gomez of San Miguele 

Synopsis: SHIELD agents in San Miguele and Cairo have been murdered, prompting Fury to investigate  meanwhile, someone called the High Leader is behind it, funding phony guerillas to take over San Miguele's capital, Rio Villa. In the midst of the battle, San Miguele's top businessman, Senor Juanilla, makes an offer to the president to wipe out the guerillas once and for all 


Story #4  reprint of Tales to Astonish #27 (part 3, 3p, recut?) 


Story #5  Night Raven (untitled, part 1, 3p) 

Characters: 
Night Raven 
Sam Venuti 
The Taxman 
Mrs. Venuti 
Carlo Canalone 

Synopsis: 1930's city nightlife  the Taxman, a collector of protection money, and his henchmen, are leaning on local businesses. Night Raven catches up to them too late for Venuti's pawn shop  and the arriving officers think HE beat Mr. Venuti. Night Raven attacks the officers and steals their car, driving it to Carlo's Restaurant  just in time to get hit by a bomb-blast, courtesy of Carlo's refusal to pay the Taxman. Dazed, Night Raven looks up into the barrel of a police revolver 


Story #6  reprint of Incredible Hulk v2 #161 (part 2, recut, 3p)

Last edited by jephyork on 30 Apr 2004 12:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 30 Apr 2004 11:44 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Hulk Comic #4  March 28, 1979  B&W 

Notes: I only have temporal references for the Black Knight stories  I forgot to take them for the other new stories, and I no longer have these issues. I apologize. 


Story #1  the Incredible Hulk (untitled, 3p) 

Characters: 
Bruce Banner / the Hulk 
Jimmy Cobb 
Hiram J. Cobb 
Lieutenant Queeg 

Synopsis: Bruce Banner has taken a job on board a cruise ship operating in the Caribbean, hoping that the calm of the job will keep the Hulk at bay -- but he stumbles onto a plot to kidnap the son of Hiram Cobb, one of the world's wealthiest men. Banner is pushed overboard by Queeg, the ship's lieutenant in on the scam, and a helicopter takes the conspirators off the ship  but Banner changes into the Hulk, wrecks the coptor, and saves the boy. Queeg is found in the water, and the plot is foiled. 


Story #2  Black Knight (untitled, part 3, 3p) 

Characters: 
Captain Britain 
Black Knight V 
Valinor BTS? (in the cave with CB and BK, off-panel) 
"Modred" (Mordred) 
"Ancient One" III (golem) 

Synopsis: the Black Knight battles the stranger, who pulls a fighting staff from the wrapped pouch  a staff capable of withstanding the Ebony Blade. The Knight deduces that the stranger must be the man Merlyn sent him to locate  the long-missing Captain Britain! Unfortunately, the stranger can't seem to remember who he is  and, outside the cave, Modred raises a stone golem that he refers to as "the Ancient One", and sends it towards the cave 

Temporal references: picking up directly from last issue  still before noon. 

Notes: as mentioned in my write-up for issue #1, it is revealed here that Merlyn sent the Black Knight to Cornwall to locate Captain Britain  so I gave Merlyn a BTS for #1. 

Also, although Valinor doesn't actually appear in this issue, next issue shows that he's still in the cave with CB and the Knight. I assumed that the cave was a smallish place, decided that Valinor was probably just off-panel the whole time and gave him a BTS. 


Story #3  reprint (Ant-Man [issue unknown], part 1, 3p, recut?) 


Story #4  Nick Fury, agent of SHIELD (untitled, part 4, 3p) 

Characters: 
Nick Fury 
Presidente Gomez 
Garcia Juanilla 
Dum Dum Dugan 
"the Gaffer" 
Countess Valentina 
Gabe Jones 

Synopsis: the President of San Miguele accepts Juanilla's proposal to wipe out the guerillas, and within minutes, a private army sweeps the streets, killing or capturing all the rebels. However, the "rebels" are paid actors, on the same side as the private army. As Nick Fury regroups with Gabe and Val, Juanilla drugs President Gomez and forces him to order the arny disbanded and declare Juanilla acting president  and the SHIELD agents come under fire from the sky 


Story #5  reprint of the Eternals #1 (part 1, 3p, recut) 


Story #6  Night Raven (untitled, part 2, 3p) 

Characters: 
Night Raven 
Albert Feldstein 
the Taxman 

Synopsis: Night Raven, being arrested, is able to sleight-of-hand the cuffs onto the officer himself and escape. Meanwhile the Taxman visits poor old clockmaker Albert Feldstein, who offers a valuable clock in lieu of payment. The Taxman's hired goon checks the back room to find the REAL Feldstein  and is attacked by Night Raven, who has been masquerading. The Taxman escapes with the clock, but as he drives off its ticking gets louder and louder  until his car explodes and his body is found drifting in the river, along with Night Raven's trademark note 


Story #7  reprint of Incredible Hulk v2 #161 (part 3, recut, 3p)

Last edited by jephyork on 30 Apr 2004 12:27 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 30 Apr 2004 12:01 pm 
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Notes: the Black Knight kills the Hellraven with his Ebony Blade, graphically spilling its blood  shouldn't that have invoked his Blood Curse or whatnot? Did the blade have a blood curse at the time of A 226? (The chronological placement of this story is inviolate  the Knight appears with CB in "Contest of Champions" between pages of this adventure  so we can't use the lack of a curse as a chronological clue.) Maybe, when sending the Knight on his quest, Merlyn temporarily suspended the curse? 
<<<
 


The Ebony Blade WAS cursed at that point. Perhaps the curse applied only to the spillage of *human* blood? 

In any case, you have confirmed that the MCP is incorrect in placing all of Captain Britain's appearances in HC before COC 1. Only HC 1/2 and part of HC 3/2 precede COC 1-3. The June placement of HC 1/2 can stand, as can my June placement of COC. :smile: (I'd still like to push H2 250 back before HC 1/2.) 

Jeph, can you provide details about exactly where (between which pages)in HC 3/2 the Knight and Captain Britain disappear to be in COC? If it is the wee early morning hours in Britain when COC occurs, then American heroes would have been snatched away in the evening.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2004 12:05 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Hulk Comic #5  April 4, 1979  B&W 

Notes: I only have temporal references for the Black Knight stories  I forgot to take them for the other new stories, and I no longer have these issues. I apologize. 


Story #1  the Incredible Hulk (untitled, part 1, 3p) 

Characters: 
Bruce Banner / the Hulk 
Sergeant Kyle (named next issue) 
unnamed android 

Synopsis: Bruce Banner is hitchhiking, sleeping in the back of a truck passing through the swamplands of America, when the truck is stopped by army men on the lookout for a giant creature who escaped from a nearby lab. They chase Banner into quicksand, but it is the Hulk who climbs out, attacking and defeating the army men. Suddenly, though, the Hulk becomes tired, and changes back to Banner  which is when he is grabbed by a giant robot 


Story #2  Black Knight (untitled, part 4, 3p) 

Characters: 
Captain Britain 
Black Knight V 
"Ancient One" III (golem) 
"Modred" (Mordred) 
Valinor 

Synopsis: Modred's golem attacks the cave, intending to collapse it with the Black Knight and Captain Britain still inside  but the Knight makes a break for it aboard Valinor, attacking the enormous creature's leg. He is unhorsed by a mighty blow, and Captain Britain  still an amnesiac  instinctively leaps to his defense. The two of them lead the golem towards a patch of sand, and their hunch proves correct  this close to the ocean, the wet sand is unsupported by rocks  and the golem's immense weight traps him, sinking into the sand until he's gone. The Knight notices Modred watching, but he vanishes before the Knight can attack him. The two heroes walk off, now comrades-in-arms. 

Temporal references: picking up directly from last issue. 


Story #3  Hulk Comic Relief Page  "Spaceburst" (1p) 

Synopsis: a sound-effects-gag page about a spaceman who needs to use the toilet. Really. Normally I wouldn't count this, but the cover advertises "7 Top Adventure Stories", and without this there's only six. 


Story #4  Nick Fury, agent of SHIELD (untitled, part 5, 3p) 

Characters: 
Nick Fury 
Gabe Jones 
Countess Valentina 
Dum Dum Dugan 
"the Gaffer" 
Garcia Juanilla 
President Gomez 

Synopsis: Fury realizes that the clothes they stole are bugged, and Juanilla's army is tracking them. They discard the clothes, evade the troopers, and take shelter in a church until night falls. Then, Fury announces that they'll be taking the fight to the presidential palace 


Story #5  reprint of the Eternals #1 (part 2, 4p, recut) 


Story #6  reprint (Ant-Man [issue unknown], part 2, 3.5p, recut) 


Story #7  Night Raven (untitled, part 1, 3p) 

Characters: 
Night Raven 
Ace Diamond 
"Fat Freddie" 

Synopsis: Night Raven interferes in a pool hall when a dirty card-player, Ace Diamond, is being beaten by three friends he tried to scam. Diamond recovers during the fight and, producing a revolver, steals the keys to the hall and locks Night Raven in with the three men he was fighting

Last edited by jephyork on 30 Apr 2004 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 30 Apr 2004 12:14 pm    Post subject: Ancient One
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
"Ancient One" II (golem)  
<<<


I think your listing should be "Ancient One III." Ancient One II was the Mandarin's vizier in AA2 3-4.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2004 12:16 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Hi Paul. 

Yes, the MCP is incorrect in a few spots -- a thread on the old board decided that H2 #250 *does* have to occur after M/TU #66 and before HC #1/2. The trouble is, that would mean that Captain Britain was an amnesiac in that scene -- OR that it occurs between M/TU #66 and EXCAL #53-FB, during a period where CB returned to Britain briefly. I don't know if that works. 

Also, we did determine that COC has to happen *during* the HC saga rather than after it -- but it can't happen between pages of HC #3/2 as you suggest. In COC, a fully-facultied and fully-costumed Captain Britain sits astride Valinor with the Black Knight -- and the Knight doesn't even discover CB's identity until HC #4/2. 

COC does occur sometime before HC #22/2, but I don't recall exactly where. Never fear, though, as I keep writing up these books I'll figure it out. Valinor's wing has to be healed, the Captain has to have some or most of his memories back, they have to be on Earth, and the Captain has to be alive -- he dies sometime in the #20s, and by the time he is brought back to life, the Knight has crossed over into Otherworld, where the two remain until the saga's end. 

If I keep doing these in 5-issue chunks, we'll find the available point for COC soon. Or, if you're not into waiting for me, you can check the archives from the old board -- I'm fairly certain I nailed down a placement for it there. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2004 12:25 pm 
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Hmm. Ancient One II isn't on the MCP -- I didn't know about him. Sorry. 

I'll go edit my write-ups above. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2004 12:29 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

And, Sean, thanks for the info. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Apr 2004 01:56 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

By the way, Paul, COC #3 shows that the heroes were gone from earth for an hour, from 2-3 pm EST. That would be, what, 7-8pm in England? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2004 05:16 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Ah ha! Whoops. 

Paul wrote: 
Quote: 
>>>
you have confirmed that the MCP is incorrect in placing all of Captain Britain's appearances in HC before COC 1. Only HC 1/2 and part of HC 3/2 precede COC 1-3. 
<<<

Then I wrote: 
Quote: 
>>>
we did determine that COC has to happen *during* the HC saga rather than after it -- but it can't happen between pages of HC #3/2 as you suggest. 
<<<

Sorry, Paul -- now I get where the "during HC #3/2" thing came from. YOU didn't suggest it -- *I* did. Kind of. Witness: 

My write-up for HC #3/2 read, in part: 
Quote: 
>>>
the Knight appears with CB in "Contest of Champions" between pages of this adventure 
<<<

But I didn't mean "in-between pages of this ISSUE" ... I meant "in-between pages of this *story arc*" -- the arc encompassing ALL of the Black Knight strips from HC #1-63. 

Sorry if it sounded like I was correcting *you* for something *I* said. Wheee! 

Hey, why isn't anyone else posting? Not like it's a Friday night or anything... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2004 07:45 pm    Post subject: Hulk Comic #2
By Ant-Man

Hulk Comic #2  March 14, 1979  B&W 

Story #1  the Incredible Hulk (untitled, 3p) 

Characters: 
the Hulk 
Jody (a cab driver) 
Leroy 
Billy 

Synopsis: Bruce arrives in "Retribution U.S.A." via train, and gets a ride in Jody's cab. 
On the road, Leroy and Billy drive by, and try to spook Jody and Bruce, which runs them off the road. Jody is stuck in the crashed car, so Bruce transforms into the Hulk and pulls her free as the car explodes. 
Hulk goes after Leroy and Billy, trashes their car, and then tells them to get a doctor for Jody! 
**SEVERAL DAYS LATER** 
Bruce is with Jody in the hospital, and as he leaves, Billy offers him a ride, which he refuses... 

Story #2  Nick Fury, agent of SHIELD (untitled, part 2, 3p) 

Characters: 
Nick Fury 
Dum Dum Dugan 
"the Gaffer" (Sydney A. Levine), SHIELD weaponry expert 
Carlyle Pallis, head of SHIELD's internal security dept. 
Spence (head of SHIELD records department) 

Synopsis: Spence runs into the room where Nick is talking to an unnamed communications officer. Pallis is running after Spence, accusing him of being the traitor that tried to kill Fury. Pallis claims there are records that make Spence look suspicious, and takes Spence to another room to "question" him. Nick goes to talk to Dugan, and Dugan points out that Spence would have been able to cover up any records that would have given him away as the traitor, and the only other person with access to those records was Pallis. 
Fury and Dugan confront Pallis, and after Punching Dum Dum in the jaw, he runs out onto the flight deck of the helicarrier. As he's running across the deck, Nick shoots the controls for the catapult on the deck, send Pallis flying off the helicarrier to the ground below. 

Story #3  "Contact!" (2p) 
Comedy strip 

Story #4  reprint of Tales to Astonish #27 (part 2, 3p, recut?) 

Story #5  Night Raven (untitled, 3p) 

Characters: 
Night Raven 
Unnamed Policemen 
Unnamed Gangster 
Unnamed Blind Man 

Synopsis: 1930s  Night Raven, using a cane, poses as a blind man to get past policemen and walk into a building where a gangster is holed up. 
The gangster hears the tapping of the cane, and goes to check it out, and Night Raven leaves his mark on him. 
As Night Raven leaves the building, he ditches the cane, and tips a blind man walking outside the building. 

Story #6 - Hulk (reprint of Incredible Hulk #161; 3p)

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2004 08:09 pm    Post subject: Hulk Comic
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Sorry if it sounded like I was correcting *you* for something *I* said. Wheee!  
<<<


No problem, Jeph. It's cool.  


Quote: 
>>>
By the way, Paul, COC #3 shows that the heroes were gone from earth for an hour, from 2-3 pm EST. That would be, what, 7-8pm in England?  
<<<


Not that it's an issue for HC 3/2, but yes, for the Black Knight and Captain Britain, COC would occur from 7-8 pm. So ideally, we'll have to look for a spot in HC that corresponds to that time of day. 


Quote: 
>>>
Hmm. Ancient One II isn't on the MCP -- I didn't know about him. Sorry.  
<<<


Hmm. I'm surprised you didn't ask me for documentation.  I don't own Amazing Adventures #3-4, but Ancient One II, the Mandarin's aged vizier, is noted as appearing in the Inhumans stories in those issues in Marvel Comics Index 8B (the old Olshevsky series), page 51. 


Quote: 
if you're not into waiting for me, you can check the archives from the old board -- I'm fairly certain I nailed down a placement for it there. 
 


I think I can wait a little bit...
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 May 2004 01:22 am    
By SeanCurtin

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
The Ebony Blade WAS cursed at that point. Perhaps the curse applied only to the spillage of *human* blood? 


Well, it's quite likely that Mo(r)dred's "Hellravens" aren't even living creatures, but are instead golems like the "Ancient One" he creates. In that case, their "blood" is actually some kind of alchemical fluid. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 57

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 04:06 pm    Post subject: Contest of Champions II (5 issues)
By Starman

Okay, here comes my first attempt of issue analysis for the MCP. I even attempted to write a brief summary of the issues, but it didn't even get close to brief, got too long, so I skipped it as it's only optional. (Crom be thanked!)  

Contest of Champions II #1 (of 5) 
(Swedish reprint and translation in Mega Marvel no. 3 - 2001) 

Published: September 1999 (released on July 7, 1999) 

"The Gathering" (23 pages) 
Writer: Chris Claremont 
Pencils: Oscar Jimenez 
Inks: Eduardo Alpuente 

Appearences: 
Black Panther 
Brother Royal 
Captain America 
Cyclops 
Deadpool 
Emperiatrix (Brood Queen)-BTS 
Harry Malone (Sgt.) ("Hardcase") 
Hulk 
Human Torch 
Iron Man 
Kitty Pryde 
Moon Knight 
Psylocke 
Ricochet (Slingers) 
Rogue 
She-Hulk 
Spider-Man 
Storm 
Thing 
Thor 
Wolverine 

X-Force: 
Cannonball 
Domino 
Jesse Bedlam 
Meltdown 
Moonstar 
Proudstar 
Siryn 
Sunspot
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 04:07 pm    Post subject: Contest of Champions II #2 (of 5)
By Starman

Contest of Champions II #2 (of 5) 
(Swedish reprint and translation in Mega Marvel no. 3 - 2001) 

Published: September or October 1999 (released on July 21, 1999) 
(The Unofficial Handbook of Marvel Comics Creators states October, while The Chris Claremont Checklist states September.) 

"Process of Elimination" (23 pages) 
Writer: Chris Claremont 
Pencils: Oscar Jimenez 
Inks: Eduardo Alpuente 

Appearences: 
Brother Royal 
Emperiatrix (Brood Queen)-BTS 
Hulk 
Human Torch 
Iron Man 
Kitty Pryde 
Mr. Fantastic 
Psylocke 
She-Hulk 
Spider-Woman (Mattie Franklin) 
Storm
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 04:12 pm    Post subject: Contest of Champions II #3 (of 5)
By Starman

Contest of Champions II #3 (of 5) 
(Swedish reprint and translation in Mega Marvel no. 3 - 2001) 

Published: October or November 1999 (released on September 8, 1999) 
(UHMCC and CCC disagree here too.) 

"Culling the Herd" (23 pages) 
Writer: Chris Claremont 
Pencils: Oscar Jimenez 
Inks: Eduardo Alpuente 

Appearences: 
Beast 
Black Panther 
Black Widow 
Brother Royal 
Cable 
Carol Danvers (Binary, Warbird) 
Colossus 
Daredevil 
Deadpool 
Domino 
Emperiatrix (Brood Queen) 
Firestar 
Gambit 
Generation X? (Panel shows X-Force defeated, but text says Generation X defeated, and as X-Force gets defeated in the next issue, I go with the text.) 
Hawkeye 
Hercules 
Invisible Woman 
Iron Fist 
Iron Man 
Justice 
Kitty Pryde 
Lockdown 

New Warriors: 
Aegis 
Bolt 
Namorita 
Nova 
Speedball 
Turbo 

Phoenix 
Powerman 
Psylocke 
Quicksilver 
Rosetta Stone 
Scarlet Witch 

Slingers: 
Dusk 
Hornet 
Prodigy 
Ricochet 

Spider-Man 
Spider-Woman (Mattie Franklin) 
Storm 
Thor 
Wasp 
Wolverine 
Wonder Man
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 04:13 pm    Post subject: Contest of Champions II #4 (of 5)
By Starman

Contest of Champions II #4 (of 5) 
(Swedish reprint and translation in Mega Marvel no. 3 - 2001) 

Published: November 1999 (released on October 6, 1999) 

"Final Cut" (23 pages) 
Writer: Chris Claremont 
Pencils: Michael Ryan 
Inks: John Livesay and Kryssing 

Appearences: 
Beast 
Black Panther 
Black Widow 
Brood Queen 
Captain America 
Daredevil 
Deadpool 
Domino 
Gambit 
Hawkeye 
Hercules 
Hulk 
Iron Man 
Kitty Pryde ("Shadowcat") 
Lockdown 
Mr. Fantastic 
Phoenix 
Psylocke 
Rogue 
Rosetta Stone 
Scarlet Witch 
Spider-Man 
Spider-Woman (Mattie Franklin) 
Thing 
Thor 
Wasp 
Wolverine 

X-Force: 
Cannonball 
Jesse Bedlam-BTS 
Meltdown-BTS 
Moonstar 
Proudstar 
Siryn-BTS 
Sunspot
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 04:14 pm    Post subject: Contest of Champions II #5 (of 5)
By Starman

Contest of Champions II #5 (of 5) 
(Swedish reprint and translation in Mega Marvel no. 3 - 2001) 

Published: November 1999 (released on October 20, 1999) 

"Victory" (23 pages) 
Writer: Chris Claremont 
Pencils: Michael Ryan (first half) and Oscar Jimenez (second half) 
Inks: John Livesay (first half) and Eduardo Alpuente (second half) 

Appearences: 
Beast 
Black Panther 
Black Widow 
Brood Queen 
Brother Royal 
Captain America 
Cyclops 
Deadpool 
Domino 
Gambit 
Harry Malone (Sgt.) ("Hardcase") 
Hawkeye 
Hulk 
Human Torch 
Iron Man 
Lockdown 
Phoenix 
Power Man (Luke Cage) 
Psylocke 
Rogue 
Rosetta Stone 
Scarlet Witch 
Shadowcat 
She-Hulk 
Spider-Man 
Storm-BTS 
Thing 
Thor 
Warbird 
Wolverine
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 04:19 pm    Post subject: Contest of Champions II References & Notes
By Starman

Contest of Champions II References & Notes: 

* Rogue is wearing her green/white hooded costume. 
* Shadowcat is wearing the yellow/blue costume, with huge shoulderpads in #1-3 and second half of #5, without in #4 and first half of #5. (I think the shoulderpads could be ignored as an artist error, as she quit the shoulderpads when she rejoined the X-Men in X-Men 80.) 
* The Thing is wearing is wearing the same FF costume as the rest of FF in issue #1, but is just wearing blue-shorts in issues #4-5. 
* It looks like Iron Man is wearing the "safe armour", the one that later becomes the "sentinent armour". 
* Siryn's throat still injured. 
* Spider-Woman (Mattie Franklin) wearing the same costume she wore in ASM #5-6, PPSM2 #5 and the first issues of S-W3. 
* The Hulk is in his Savage Hulk personage. 
* She-Hulk is wearing what looks like a purple full-body bathing suit and thigh-high purple boots. 
* Scarlet Witch is wearing her gypsy costume. 
* Wasp is wearing a white costume. 
* Phoenix in the green phoenix costume. 
* Captain America having an energy-shield. 
* Wolverine with bone-claws.

Going by the publication dates, and the costumes they're wearing I guess that CoC2 goes between the 8 and the 9 issues of the vol. 2 Spider-Man issues (ASM2 and PPSM2), as that's between storylines. For the X-Men members I guess it goes after X '99, and before Uncanny X-Men 372, thus making this being the Wolverine Skrull in the Coc2 issues, but I don't see any problem with this. Lacking many non-Spider-Man and non-X-Men issues I can't place it especially well in other characters' chronologies, but the Chris Claremont Checklist place CoC2 between FF3 21 and 22, and I assume it goes before the 8th Day crossover in IM3, T2 and PPSM2. 

I guess that, just as in the first Contest of Champions from the beginning of the 80's, all people in these issues, except for Sgt. Harry "Hardcase" Malone, could be considered to be between the scenes in the issues where they don't make an actual appearence.
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Apr 2004 01:00 am    
By John Simons

...The Brood Queens name actually fluctuates between Emperiatrix and Imperiatrix, but more often it is Imperiatrix (or just plain Brood-Queen) 
...and she is not BTS in issue 1 & 2 , she does appear (true, its only a tentacle, but its an appearence nonetheless) 

Well, in my Big Box o Avengers, I have this miniseries placed between CA3 15-19 (the team gets trashed by an omnipotent Red Skull) and BP3 8 and 9. The reason being that in the latter story some tension builds between the team and TChalla when they learn that he originally joined, way back when, to spy on them. The Panther and the Avengers part on bad terms at the end of BP3 9, whereas there is no particular animosity or even tension between Cap and the Panther when they are forced to fight in COC2 4. 

Suggested COC2 Avengers placement: 
Iron Man: between IM# 18 and BP3 7 
Black Panther: not sure; prior to BP3 7, but I dont have issues earlier than that to place more precisely. 
Captain America: between CA3 19 and BP3 8 
Thor, Wonder Man, and Scarlet Witch: between TB 25 and BP3 7 
She-Hulk: dunno, either before or after W 99/2, which I dont have... 
Wasp: between CA3 21 and A3 16 
Hawkeye: between TB 26 and TB 27 
Firestar: between A3 15 and BP3 7 
Justice: between A3 15 and A3 16 
Quicksilver: after MR 1, but I dont have his next few appearences, which are X-books. 
Hercules: between T2 13 and FF3 21, unless the Chris Claremont chronology Starman mentions is accurate, in which case between FF3 21 and A3 25. 

Warbird: theres a problem between Iron Mans and Warbirds listings in the MCP. Shellhead is listed as appearing in IM3 18 prior to A3 16-18, whereas in Warbirds listing the opposite is true. I think the Iron Man version works better, since Carol is still lushy in IM3 18 but she appears to have her act more or less together in A3 16-18. Therefore I suggest the following reshuffling of Warbirds chronology: 
.... 
IM3 15-BTS 
IM3 18 
COC2 3 
COC2 4- BTS 
COC2 5 
A3 16 
A3 17 
A3 18 
IM3 19-FB 
... 

Hopefully the chronologies of the other characters in COC2 fit in with these placements...

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2004 02:04 pm    
By Starman

Okay, maybe I should add the URLs to the two sites I've tried to use to help me with my issue analysis? 

Chris Claremont Checklist 
www.chrisclaremontchecklist.net 

The Unoffical HandBook of Marvel Comic Creators (UHBMCC) 
Markus's site is at www.maelmill-insi.de/UHBMCC/ 
Paulo's site is at www.geocities.com/paulo_costa_2000
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 May 2004 01:46 am 
By John Simons

Visiting the site you linked I couldn't find any chronology in terms of story order, but only publication order. It's true that COC2 1 was published the same month as FF3 21, but by no means does that automatically assume the miniseries takes place between FF3 21 and 22. 

'Course, since I didn't collect Claremont's FF run, I don't have a better suggestion. My reasonng why Herc would appear in the mini before FF3 21 follows from my opinion that Thor appears here shortly after T2 13 (also featuring Herc), whereas the Avengers have quite a few adventures before they turn up in FF3 23 (just 2 issues beyond Herc's next appearence in FF3 21)

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 May 2004 12:15 pm    
By Starman

Check in the bottom of the webpages of the related issues. From 1990 and forward there are a chronology in story order on the bottom of the webpages. (Excluding non-Claremont issues, but still).
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Thread 58

Posted: 03 May 2004 02:12 am    Post subject: Chronology Review for Hulk issues #66-70.
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Chronology Review for Incredible Hulk #66 to 70. 

If needed, you should probably consult my last batch of Hulk reviews, as this storyarc picks up right where we left off at the end of last issue. That issue ended with Betty and Doc Samson flying off in helicopter away from the remains of Home Base, which has been disentigrated from a nuclear explosion, which we are lead to believe took the lives of Sondra Verdugo and Ricky Myers. Bruce Banner is at Nadia Blonsky's house, (which I'm surprised this structure is still standing after the mayhem of the last few issues). Banner, (in Hulk mode) had killed a clone of Banner, who was about to kill Nadia. 

Incredible Hulk #66 
"Dead Like Me pt. 1" 
Written by Bruce Jones 
Drawn by Dougie Braithwaite 

Appearances: Bruce Banner, Nadia Blonsky, Doc Samson, Betty Ross,and the "Banner Clone"(his body at least). 

Synopsis: EVENTS PICK UP RIGHT WHERE THEY LEFT OFF AT THE END OF LAST ISSUE. NO TIME HAS PASSED. ENTIRE ISSUE TAKES PLACE OVER THE COURSE OF ONE DAY. 

Doc Samson and Betty are flying away in the stolen chopper, with Samson mourning the loss of Sandra and Ricky Myers, (the son he never knew). Samson tells Betty to head to a location of one of his secret bases which he has all over the American West, (which he uses in his journeys around America, as he helps Banner evade the forces of the Secret Conspiracy). He specifically says, "turn east at that canyon towards Carlsbad" , so they're still in the New Mexico/Arizona region. They head to the base, (it's a hidden shack in the middle of the woods) and travel down into the basement, to find a fully functioning labratory at Samson's disposal... 

Meanwhile, Nadia and Banner are taking the body of the Banner clone that he killed last issue, and burying it out behind Nadia's house. Cutting to a bit later, they then go inside and Banner starts packing up his stuff to leave. Nadia urges him to stay, and he says he's not going to put her in danger any more with his presense around here. But she comments that it's nearly noon, (last issue did end shortly after dawn) and he's exhausted, and urges him to sleep for at least an hour, to get some rest. He decides to stay... 

Doc Samson starts working on one of his fancy devices to track Banner's unique radiation signature, while Betty pulls out a bottle of wine from Samson's cabinet and starts drinking. Samson manages to use the device to locate Banner, discovering he's at Nadia's house. This realization sickens Betty, who knows there's something going on between the two of them. Samson starts to get up to leave, so they can go rendevous with Banner, but Betty says it's been a long day, and starts flirting with Samson. Samson asks what this is all about, and Betty says Bruce has Nadia to take care of him now, and she wants to hop in the sack with Samson for the night. Samson pushs her advances away, and she gets rough with him, tossing him over her shoulder! Betty is suddenly showing immense superstrength on par with Samson's own! 

He asks how in the world this is possible, and she reveals some tidbits of her history after her "demise". The superstrength is a side effect from the irradiated blood the Abomination poisoned her with, (that's what killed her, way back in Hulk #366, as was revealed in Hulk #374, or thereabouts I believe...this actually makes sense to me, as blood transfusions from Gamma characters have been shown to have numerous benefits and problems. She explains she was brought back to life thanks to a mysterious group that's fighting against the "Secret Consipiracy" (another rogue govt. agency? She doesn't know who they are..) and was told she'd be used to infiltrate the Secret Conspiracy to aid her husband, Dr. Banner. They gave her the facial surgery and had her go undercover...She goes on to explain the other reason she's showing a particular "I don't care" attitude this night: the other side effect of the Abominations transfusion and of this mystery group's efforts to bring her back to life is that she has Ovarian Cancer. These men told her that it's uncurable. Apparently they managed to bring her back to life, but it's on a timetable that's not very long... 

In a flashback that correspondes to her words, we see doctors standing over her body lying inside of the glass coffin Gen. Ross put her in. She says they fed a dream into her brain, about walking along a beach and a metronome, (these are the reaccuring images Banner uses to control the beast within him, as seen in previous issues). This flashback runs from pg. 18 panels 3 through 6, to and all of page 19, all 4 panels. 

Meanwhile, Banner and Nadia take an afternoon nap, but Nadia wakes up from a nightmare. Banner feels the nightmare is about him, and starts to leave, but Nadia convinces him to stay the night, saying again that she's afraid of the dark. So Banner and Nadia go to bed together, and Samson puts Betty to bed, and they all lie around, Banner thinking of Betty, and Samson thinking of Sandra Verdugo and young Ricky Myers... 

References: None, besides any that I note above...the issue ends as our 4 heroes go to bed. 

Incredible Hulk #67 
"Dead Like Me pt. 2: Bury Me Not" 
Written by Bruce Jones 
Drawn by Dougie Braithwaite 

Appearances: Bruce Banner, Nadia Blonsky, Doc Samson, Betty Ross,and the "Banner Clone". 

Synopsis: ISSUE STARTS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, AFTER OUR HEROES WENT TO BED LAST ISSUE, AND LASTS NO MORE THAN AN HOUR I SUSPECT. 

Betty wakes up to find Samson working on his lab computer. He explains to her that he's examined a sample of her blood, and found that the Gamma cells in her blood are fighting the cancer cells, slowing the cancer down, but not stopping it. Samson theorizes that if a larger dose of Gamma irradiated cells were injected into her bloodstream, her body would defeat the cancer permanently. So Samson wants to go to Nadia's and get Banner to do a transfusion. But Betty refuses, explaining she's ready to die. She says she's already forced her husband to deal with the fact that she's lost her face, but doesn't want him to know she is dying again, after he just realized she's alive. Betty wants Banner to stay with Nadia, to find love somewhere else...well, there's that, and she's just being selfish: she's suicidal, and tired of running from the forces of the Secret Conspiracy. 

Her and Samson fight, Samson mad at her for giving up on life. Betty knocks Samson's base down around him, and she charges off to the chopper, starting it up and taking off. Samson breaks free of the wreckage of his lab, and hightails it to the chopper, bursting in just as she's taking off, and he takes over flying, and basically demands they fly onwards to Nadia's, to see Banner... 

Meanwhile, Nadia is awakened in the middle of the night, by the sound of an unearthly roar...she's startled to find Bruce isn't in bed beside her, and when she tries the light, she finds the fuse box has blown. She grabs a flashlight and heads downstairs...where she unexpectedly finds a monster in her house! It's a greenskinned horror, looking much like a cross between a giant insect or crab...it turns and walks away, leaving her alone. She finds a blood trail going out the backdoor, and she fears it's Bruce's, so she heads out the door, into the night, with only her flashlight in hand. She follows the blood out to the hole in the ground where her and Bruce had buried the Banner Clone, to find a huge hole in the ground , and the body gone. Scared already, she's aghast when she sees a pack of desert coyotes appear, encircling around her, eyeing her in hunger. They're about to pounce, when the monster Nadia encountered returns, leaping in and slaying the coyote's. It roars inhumanly, and she wonders if it just saved her, or is about to slay her next... 

References: It's after Midnight, as Betty notes: "It's 3 am in the morning". 

Incredible Hulk #68 
"Dead Like Me pt. 3: 'Hello', He Lied" 
Written by Bruce Jones 
Drawn by Dougie Braithwaite 

Appearances: Bruce Banner, Nadia Blonsky, Doc Samson, Betty Ross,and the "Banner Clone". 

Synopsis: PICKS UP IMMEDIATELY FROM WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE, AND CONTINUES FROM THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE AFTERNOON LATER THAT DAY. 

Nadia starts to flee the roaring monster, only to turn and encounter Bruce, who has a shotgun from Nadia's place in her hands. She asks where he's been, and says he heard a roaring outside, so he went to investigate. Nadia tells him to shoot the monster, but Banner's already figured out what the monster is...and as they stand there, the monster reshapes itself, getting smaller and smaller, till it resembles Banner completely. It's the Banner clone. And he's about to explain what just happened here, when all of a sudden, he's shot in the head, and falls to the ground. Betty Ross and Doc Samson arrive on the scene, Samson's gun still smoking. He says he thought whatever it was, it was attacking Nadia and Banner. 

Banner and Betty hug each other dearly, the first time they've gotten a chance to see each other peacefully in some time. So they all head back to Nadia's place, dragging the body of the Banner corpse, (dead again) and go over the events of the last little bit. Samson tells Banner that Betty has cancer, and they need a transfusion of Banner's blood to make her well. Betty explains she doesn't want the transfusion, that she's ready to die, saying she doesn't have her old face anymore, and she's tired of it all. Just then, the Banner clone wakes up, and overhearing their conversation, boldly explains the transfusion won't work if it's just Banner's blood. He needs to become the Hulk and use the Hulk's blood to cure her. 

Banner suspects he's still an agent of the Secret Conspiracy, just wanting Banner to turn into the Hulk, so he can get a chance to get some Hulk blood, to take back to Mr. Lips and the Secret Conspiracy. The clone says that when Banner killed him the first time, as his body reintegrated itself, this cast off the programming from the Secret Conspiracy. This clone reveals that they've gotten samples of Banner's blood in the past, (that's how they made him, the Banner Clone) but they've yet to get pure Hulk blood, to clone a Hulk. When the four heroes act a bit concerned about this clone in their midst, he explains he is incapable of transforming into a "Hulk" himself. The monster he was earlier in the night was a result of his reintegration DNA running wild. But the clone claims that won't happen again. 

But the four heroes decide they can't have a second Banner lying around, so they determine they'll have to kill him, (as they don't particularly trust him either). Betty pulls out a gun and aims it at the clone, but can't do it, and Samson tries, and can't bring himself to kill someone who looks exactly like Bruce, so Banner says he'll do it. And he marches the clone out the door and up the mountainside at gunpoint. The afternoon sun is coming out, (it's been a few hours) and they finally make it up over the ridge. 

The clone asks why he's been taken all the way out here, and Banner says because he knows the only true way to kill the Secret Conspiracy's reintegration clones is to "carve him up and scatter the pieces". A simple bullet to the brain won't do, (which is correct, going by all the 'zombies' we've seen in past Hulk issues, like Sondra Verdugo for instance). But now that they're up in the mountains, the clone reveals a startling secret. He really DOES have a Hulk version within him, and he transforms into a monster that's a cross between the Hulk and the spider/crab thing he was earlier, (though it was Banner DNA that was used to create the clone, the Secret Conspiracy was able to at least squeeze out a monstrosity like this from Banner's own mixed up DNA...but it's not a pure Hulk clone)...the Banner Clone Monster explains that since they've gone to all the trouble to come up here, he'll kill the real Banner, and go back posing as him, and Banner's friends won't be able to know the difference! 

References: None, besides anything mentioned above... 

Incredible Hulk #69 
"Dead Like Me pt. 4: Trust Me" 
Written by Bruce Jones 
Drawn by Dougie Braithwaite 

Appearances: Bruce Banner, Nadia Blonsky, Doc Samson, Betty Ross,and the "Banner Clone". 

Synopsis: PICKS UP WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE, AND RUNS INTO THE EVENING HOURS AFTER NIGHTFALL, OF THAT SAME DAY. 

Hulk and the Hulk Clone monster fight a long and lengthy battle, and all the while the Clone is teasing Banner, telling him Mr. Lips has it all planned out, and there's nothing Banner can do to stop him. He even teases Banner by saying there is no one he can trust, not even Betty Ross, (trying to plant seeds of doubt, perhaps?). Hulk, (with Banner's brain in control) counters by revealing there's one difference between the two of them, (besides the fact that the Hulk Clone Monster has extra arms and fangs, like a crab or insect or...something): The original Hulk still has extra strength, due to the fact that the Madder Hulk gets, the Stronger Hulk gets! 

Meanwhile, back at Nadia's, the three others are wondering what's taking Bruce so long to execute the clone. Soon, they hear a rumble like an Earthquake, coming from up the mountainside. They suddenly realize that there must be a battle up there, and that the Banner Clone was capable of turning into a Hulk-like monster after all. Betty wants to rush up there to help, while Nadia wants to trust in Bruce to handle it on his own, and Samson doesn't know what to do... 

Before Betty can go charging off into the desert, (it's after dark now, so they must've been waiting for sometime), they hear the sound of the helicopter starting up. The three of them rush outside, to see Banner (or is it the Banner clone?) starting up the chopper. They run over, and Banner shuts off the chopper and walks over to greet them, telling them he just wanted to make sure the chopper was still operational, saying they need to head out of here soon, as Nadia's house isn't safe anymore. 

They ask him how it went, and Banner tells them the creature is dead now, but they don't trust him. As they step back inside the house, Banner figures out they don't know if he's the clone or the real deal, and he offers a blood sample. But they say it's possible he could fool the blood sample. So Banner just says they'll have to trust him. Nadia walks over and kisses Banner, and says, "He's the real Banner" but Betty and Samson are not so trusting. Those two turn around and walk outside, heading back up the mountainside, to go look at the body of the dead "Banner"... 

They take the long walk up over the mountain, and spot the corpse of a Hulk-like creature below. They go down and look at it, and can tell it's the clone, and Betty feels like a fool for doubting Banner. They stick around to bury the monster. It'll stay dead this time because, as Samson notes, "He cut out the brain and the heart and scattered them..." Ewww. 

Cut to the next morning, right around dawn. Betty and Samson arrive back at Nadia's, to find what they expected: Banner's gone. Nadia's there, to explain since they didn't trust him, he's gone on ahead alone. He left behind a vial of Hulk blood, to give to Betty for a transfusion to cure her cancer. They all get the idea it may be some time before they ever see Banner again... 

And we cut to Banner, walking alone on the road, off into the desert, as the morning sun comes up... 

References: Pg. 20 ends with Samson and Betty beginning the long task of burying the Hulk Clone monster. Pg. 21 cuts to dawn the next morning, as they arrive back at Nadia's, to find Banner has left. Pg. 22 cuts to what I guess is that same morning at dawn, as Banner is shown walking down the road, backpack over one shoulder, all alone. He's passing a sign that reads "Californa State Line: 3 miles". Which sets up for the next issue, which takes place in Californa. But now that I think about it, Nadia's house was near Area 51, which was in New Mexico, not Arizona, so if this is the same morning, Banner must've pulled some fancy footwork to get so close to the Californa state line... 

Incredible Hulk #70 
"Symetry" 
Written by Bruce Jones 
Drawn by Mike Deadato Jr. 

Appearances: Bruce Banner, New Character: "Even" Mathews, and several Californa policemen... 

Synopsis: DUE TO THIS ISSUE NOT PICKING UP DIRECTLY WHERE THE LAST ISSUE LEFT OFF, WE NOT HAVE SOME ACTUAL PASSAGE OF TIME, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MONTHS!!! EVENTS OF THIS ISSUE HAPPEN OVER THE COURSE OF ONE EVENING. 

Banner jumps off a freight train he hitched a ride on, to find himself in the small rural town of Symetry, Californa. It's a rainy evening, and the sun is going down. He goes into a local diner to grab a bite to eat, when a man comes up and sits across from him. This man introduces himself as "Even" Mathews, (it's a nickname: like 'Even-Steven' we're told) a clairvoyant who says he knows that this is Bruce Banner sitting across from him. He says he's been known to have several visions involving Banner, such as visions showing the day Bruce Banner became the Hulk, and also a vision showed him the conversation Banner had with a young boy in a hotel room back in Kansas City, (the events of Issue #34 of the Hulk, which was Bruce Jones first issue on the title). He says he has another vision, this one in the future, of a man bursting in and killing his wife with a knife. Banner says that vision doesn't involve him at all, but Mathews seems to think otherwise. Mathews pulls a gun on Banner and marches him outback, urging Banner not to Hulk out in here, where there are civilians. 

So they march outback, and Mathews gives the gun over to Banner, and tells him to check and make sure there are bullets in the gun, and to fire a round at a nearby tree. Which Banner does. Mathews takes the gun back and points it at his head, and Banner's like, "Don't do it!" But Mathews fires, but all we hear is click. Mathews says he knew the gun would malfunction just now, because this isn't how he's scheduled to die. Fate, (which Mathews believes strongly in, thanks to his visions) has predestined Mathews die by cancer, as he explains to Banner. Mathews has tried to kill himself before, but it somehow never works. He is destined to die a slow, painful death at the hands of the cancer. 

Just then, a bunch of policemen burst into the field where they are, (looks like every policeman in the county) and Mathews reveals he's working for the Feds. He says they use his visions to catch killers, (since most of his visions involve people being killed) and now they've asked him to help in capturing Banner. Banner turns into the Hulk and smacks all of the cops away, (not killing them of course, but knocking them all unconsious). Hulk transforms back down to Banner, and tells Mathews that his visions were wrong for once, that it looks like he's not going to jail afterall. Banner gives Mathews some advice: that he should try tempting fate sometime. But as Banner turns to walk away, Mathews pulls out a tranquilizer gun, shoots Banner in the back, and takes him down. 

Cut to later. Mathews and a sheriff are in a nearby hotel in town, keeping Banner sedated, till a FBI chopper can arrive to pick Banner up. The Sheriff leaves the room, and Mathews turns off the tranquilers juice that's being continuously pumped into Banner, who then wakes up. Mathews says he's given some thought to Banner's words about tempting fate, and says there's still time for Banner to go and stop the man from killing his wife, right here in this small town. Mathews says the police told him they'd look into stopping the perp, but Mathews knows they won't spare any men to go stop another rural killing, when they have the more important national fugitive Banner in their midst. So Mathews sets Banner free, telling Banner that he mustn't use the Hulk, but he must go stop this killing. Banner escapes out a window, knocks out some policemen standing guard in the alley below, and steals a police car. 

Banner arrives at the house which Mathews gave directions to, and burst in, and in the dark, he says a man standing over a woman, a knife raised in the man's hand. But Banner doesn't fire the gun. He says, "You can drop the knife now, and the manniquin while you're at it." And sure enough, it's revealed to be Even Mathews, standing over a manniquin in the dark of this room. Mathews asks how Banner figured it out, and Banner says when Mathews said not to use the Hulk, (when it would've been faster for the Hulk to get over here and stop this murder) that this got Banner suspicious. Banner says he knows that what Mathews wants most is a bullet to the head, so he won't have to suffer from the cancer. Banner reveals he knows what it's like to have pointed a gun at his own head a time or two, and Mathews asks why he never pulls the trigger. And Banner replies, "Because there is always hope." Mathews replies he doesn't believe in hope, and Banner has just confirmed you can't tempt fate. Mathews says a more sympathetic man would've pulled the trigger. But they come to understand one another better, and Banner leaves, hopping onto another freight train and leaves the small town of Symetry behind. As he rides out of town, he sees a sign which reads, "Don't miss the view: Getting there is half the fun!" which Mathews suggests sums up Banner's feelings on life... 

References: There's a few flashbacks to note here: 

Pg. 4, panel 2: A flashback to Banner being struck by the blast from the Gamma Bomb, on the day the Hulk was born. Mathews says he saw this event in his head. 

Pg. 4, panel 6: A flashback to Banner having the conversation with the little boy who tried to steal from him in the hotel room, from Issue 34. Mathews says he saw this event in his head. 

Pg. 7, panel 2: As Banner and Mathews stand out in the field, Mathews says he asked a carnival fortune teller about his own fate once, and we see a quick flashback to Mathews and the fortune teller, staring into a crystal ball, and the fortune teller says, "God has forbidden those with the gift to take their life by their own hand!" Mathews goes on to say this has come to explain why he has been unable to kill himself, except he believes it to be the work of Fate, not God... 

When Mathews tells Banner about the wife being killed by her husband, he describes it happening on "an Autumn evening"...since later on, he tells Banner this event is happening this very night, and that Banner can prevent it, then I can thus assume this issue takes place in Autumn. That's quite a jump from the Winter/Spring setting of the last few issues, (I know we were in February at one point). I'll note that their are green trees and grass outside, and judging by outfits, it doesn't appear to be cold outside, (short sleeves on the policemen uniforms, for instance). 

As Mathews set's Banner free, and instructs him to go stop the murder, in exchange for him setting Banner free, he warns him that the "Husband arrives home at 4:24, grabs the kitchen knife at 4:26" I'm guessing that's in the AM, as this is after nightfall. If I had to judge when the break occurs between the two days, (the sun is setting in the evening at the start of the issue) I'd say it's between pgs 10 and 11. On page 10, Mathews shoots Banner with the trainquilizer gun, and on page 11, we cut to later on in the hotel room, where the Sheriff and Mathews are keeping Banner doped up in a bed. 

Well, that's unless the sun is rising at the start of the issue...with the gloomy rain clouds in the sky throughout the issue, it's hard to tell what time of the day (or night) it is. I suppose that could be 4:24 in the afternoon, but Mathews says the murder of the housewife occurs in the evening...but 4:24 in the am, that's technically at night, before dawn, not in the evening...okay, now I'm thinking too hard about this... 

The only other thing to note is that it's raining outside... 

I'll go on to note that the next issue starts off a 4 part storyarc in which Bruce Banner meets up with Tony Stark, Iron Man, (in Los Angeles we're led to believe, but that's still up in the air to me). I've already read the first issue, (issue 71, to be precise) and I don't feel comfortable doing a full fledged review till the whole story arc has played out, but I'll go ahead and note some things I've noticed, to take into consideration. This story arc seems to occur after Tony Stark's been revealed to be Iron Man, yet before the period where he's running for Sectretary of Defense. What are the dates that you have for those events, Paul? How much of a window does that give us? I say we put a little passage of time in here if possible, (seems like the Hulk title has been stuck in February forever). Maybe this'll make the "Autumn" reference in Hulk #70 plausible...though the general idea, I think, is that little time has passed between Banner leaving Nadia, Samson, and Betty in isue #69, (he was in New Mexico/Arizona in those issues, and now he's in Californa). Still, I think we can plant time between arcs, if needed... 

Here's to hoping the portrayel of Tony in the next few issues won't be too radically different from anything we've seen in Avengers or Iron Man's own title...with the editor of the Marvel Knights title's mentatility of "I think the Marvel Universe is a big enough place for multiple versions of characters" all I can do is cross my fingers...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 May 2004 09:02 pm    Post subject: Placement of H2 70
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I'll go on to note that the next issue starts off a 4 part storyarc in which Bruce Banner meets up with Tony Stark, Iron Man, (in Los Angeles we're led to believe, but that's still up in the air to me). I've already read the first issue, (issue 71, to be precise) and I don't feel comfortable doing a full fledged review till the whole story arc has played out, but I'll go ahead and note some things I've noticed, to take into consideration. This story arc seems to occur after Tony Stark's been revealed to be Iron Man, yet before the period where he's running for Sectretary of Defense. What are the dates that you have for those events, Paul? How much of a window does that give us? I say we put a little passage of time in here if possible, (seems like the Hulk title has been stuck in February forever). Maybe this'll make the "Autumn" reference in Hulk #70 plausible...though the general idea, I think, is that little time has passed between Banner leaving Nadia, Samson, and Betty in isue #69, (he was in New Mexico/Arizona in those issues, and now he's in Californa). Still, I think we can plant time between arcs, if needed... 

Here's to hoping the portrayel of Tony in the next few issues won't be too radically different from anything we've seen in Avengers or Iron Man's own title...with the editor of the Marvel Knights title's mentatility of "I think the Marvel Universe is a big enough place for multiple versions of characters" all I can do is cross my fingers... 
<<<



I have H3 69 ending on February 22. I'm inclined to put a large gap between H3 69 and H3 70, and place the latter issue in early September, a spot in which it may not technically be autumn, but after Labor Day, a point at which many consider summer to be over. And the green grass and trees confirm it's not too far into "autumn." 

Then I would place the current arc, H3 71-74, shortly thereafter, with the suicide of Lisa Cummings occurring on "Wednesday," September 10. 

It's clear from H3 71 that Cummings and Tony Stark had been an item for some time, with rumors (I'm sure just that) floating that they were engaged. I would imagine this whole relationship would need to happen at some point in which Tony's relationship with Rumiko Fujikawa was strained. Indeed, such was the case at the conclusion of the storyline that ended in IM3 69, which I have placed back in February, just a couple of days after H3 69. 

H3 71-74 must occur before the Stark-as-Secretary-of-State storyline, which follows very closely on the heels of Stark's Las Vegas adventure (according to Rumiko's dialog in IM3 74, the issue in which she turns up again, apparently back on fairly good terms with Tony). The Las Vegas adventure begins in IM3 70. 

So...I tentatively have H3 71-74 late in a big seven-month gap between IM3 69 and 70. I'm also inclined to place the current Avengers/Thunderbolts series and the most recent Avengers story arc (ending with A3 81) just before H3 71. And we do have a reference in A/TB 2 that it is football season. 

BTW, we can fit the flashback of Iron Man fighting a monster of some sort in H3 71 "some time" before H3 71, but still in the big gap between IM3 69 and 70. And the various flashbacks showing Tony with Lisa would happen in the gap as well. 

Of course, this placement is tentative. Who knows what H3 72-74 will bring? 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 04 May 2004 09:00 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Whoa, waitaminute...you already have issue the latest issue of Hulk!!! What, are you buying these issues because they have Iron Man in them? Do you need me to do reviews for these issues still? 

And that football reference in Avengers/Thunderbolts #2 is pretty shaky, going by Zemo's complete lack of understanding of American sports, (he thought he was talking baseball afterall). 

But I agree wholeheartedly with everything you propose, so yeah, it's all good... 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Thread 59

Posted: 05 May 2004 04:16 pm    Post subject: What If v2 #60, 62, 65, 77, 84, 87, 94
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Since What If's been a big discussion topic recently... 

Are there any canon (616) scenes in What If? 

Many times during the run, the Watcher observes how events unfolded on our Earth, and contrasts them with events on an alternate earth. Most of the time, the Watcher is reviewing scenes we've seen already  but occasionally, he'll show us a previously-unseen scene. 

In order to divine these, though, I had to figure out my definiton of a "new scene". If, for example, an original issue shows Colossus punching Sasquatch with a right  and the What If? flashback shows him using a left  I don't qualify that as a new scene. I'll call it symbolic, clearly intending to simply portray the original event. Similarly, if one large panel shows a bunch of events that happened at different points in the original issue  I'll just call it a "symbolic splash" that encompasses all the events. 

But if there's substantially new dialogue  or actions or events that differ so greatly that they can't be reconciled with the original scenes  I'll attempt (if it fits) to qualify it as a new scene. 

This is my first batch of issues -- I have about ten more to review as well. 

-------- 
-------- 

v2 #60  a What If X-Men Wedding Album 

The Watcher appears (presumably after WI2 #59 and before WI2 #61). 

Earth-616 temporal references and new scenes: plenty. This issue's framing sequence occurs on Earth-616 concurrent to X #30, and was already written up by me in the "Wedding of Scott and Jean" thread. However, I didn't cover the three What If? stories the Watcher shows. I'll do that here 

- Story #1: What if Scott Summers and Jean Grey had married earlier? 

Earth-616 temporal references: none. 

This timeline branches off sometime before AA2 #11 p.9 panel 5 (FB), as Scott and Jean decide to marry prior to their announcement of it during the Beast's departure for a job at Brand. 

No pre-existing scenes. 


- Story #2: What if Scott Summers and Jean Grey had never fallen in love at all? 

Earth-616 temporal references: UX #1 was "some years in the past" from the time of X #30. 

This timeline branches off between UX #1 and UX #308-FB, as Jean develops feelings for the Angel rather than Cyclops. 

Pre-existing scenes: 

p.11 panels 1-2 ~ UX #1 p.8 panel 5p.9 panel 1 
(This scene is slightly differently posed than the original  but not so different that I'd consider it "new".) 


- Story #3: What if Phoenix had fallen for Wolverine? 

Earth-616 temporal references: none. 

This timeline branches off between pp.6-7 of UX #129. 

No pre-existing scenes.

Last edited by jephyork on 05 May 2004 04:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 05 May 2004 04:17 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

v2 #62  What if Wolverine battled Weapon X? 

The Watcher appears (presumably after WI2 #61 and before WI2 #63). 

Earth-616 temporal references: none. 

This timeline branches off at M/CP p.1 panel 3. 

Pre-existing scenes: 

p.1 panels 1-3 ~ M/CP #73 p.1 panels 1-3 
p.2 panel 6 monitor 1 ~ M/CP #73 p.1 panel 4 
p.2 panel 6 monitor 2 ~ M/CP #73 p.3 panel 4 
*p.2 panel 6 monitor 3 ~ M/CP #73 p.4 panel 3 
*p.3 panel 1 monitor 1 - generic shot from H2 #181  p.2 panel 1, p.6 panel 3, or p.14 panel 5? 
p.3 panel 1 monitor 2 - generic shot of the X-Men (circa X #4-61) 
*p.3 panel 1 monitor 3 ~ M/CP #81 p.1 panel 1 
p.3 panel 1 monitor 4 - generic shot of Logan circa M/CP #72 (p.1 panel 4?) 

The starred scenes are slightly differently posed shots than the originals  but not so different that I'd consider them "new".

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 May 2004 04:18 pm    Post subject: And the rest...
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

v2 #65  What if Archangel fell from grace? 

The Watcher appears (presumably after WI2 #64 and before WI2 #67). 

Earth-616 temporal references: none. 

This timeline branches off at XF #25 p.31 panel 2. 

Pre-existing scenes: 

p.5 panel 1  generic shot of X-Factor (circa XF #9-22) 
p.5 panel 2 ~ XF #15 p.1 panel 1 
p.5 panel 3 ~ XF #15 p.22 panel 1 
p.5 panel 4  this could be a symbolic amalgam of XF #24 p.9 panel 1 and p.16 panel 4 (differently posed  Archangel's wings folded vs. spread), or a differently-angled and differently-posed XF #24 p.21 panel 6 (Apoc in front vs. in back). I don't really consider it different enough to be a "new" scene, though. 
p.5 panel 5  XF #24 p.18 panel 4 
p.6 panel 1  XF #25 p.31 panel 2 

-------- 
-------- 

v2 #77  What if Legion had killed Magneto 

The Watcher does not appear. 

Earth-616 temporal references: none. 

This timeline branches off in two spots, thanks to time-travel from the divergent reality back before the point of divergence  first, on p.19 of Uncanny X-Men #320, when Legion decides to travel back to a DIFFERENT point in time  and second, the point at which he now travels back to  X-Factor Annual #4, story #2, p.7 panel 3. 

Pre-existing scenes: 

p.1 panel 1 ~ XF @4/2 p.7 panel 3. 
(Magnus and Magda, running through the woods away from the camp, are in different relative positions here  it's conceivably a new scene, though probably not. It could simply be symbolic or "reversed".) 

-------- 
-------- 

v2 #84  What if Shard had lived instead of Bishop? 

The Watcher does not appear. 

Earth-616 temporal references: none. 

This timeline branches off in two spots, thanks to time-travel from the divergent reality back before the point of divergence  first, at XSE #3 pp.15-16, when Bishop is killed, and second at some unknown point between X #3 and UX #282 when, because he's dead, Bishop doesn't travel back in time  and instead (and presumably not to the same instant), Shard does. 

No pre-existing scenes. 

-------- 
-------- 

v2 #87  What If starring Sabretooth 

The Watcher does not appear. 

Earth-616 temporal references: this issue tells us that UX #311 takes place the day after X #30. 

This timeline branches off at UX #311 p.17 panel 5. 

No pre-existing scenes. 

-------- 
-------- 

v2 #94  What If starring the Juggernaut 

The Watcher does not appear. 

Earth-616 temporal references: none. 

This timeline branches off sometime during UX #13, as Juggernaut successfully kills most of the X-Men. 

No pre-existing scenes.

			*	*	*

Thread 60

Posted: 06 May 2004 09:36 pm    Post subject: Storm's origin (incorporating Uncanny Origins 9)
By Dhall

Storms origin 

If I've left out anything, please let me know. 
Oh, I took PXX 4 out of the listing, as a)it's in the wrong place (that issue comes between UX 1 and 4), and b) there is only a picture of Ororo in the issue, not a flashback. 


UO 9=Uncanny Origins 9 

(UO 9 Page 1: Splash Page, no new scenes) 

UO 9 Page 2: A New York Hospital Ward: Newborn Ororo is held up in the air, by her father, David Munroe. Then her mother, NDare Munroe holds her, and sings her to sleep. 

UX 102-FB: Harlem, David, NDare, and Ororo leave New York. Ororo is six months old. 

UX 265-FB: David and NDare Munroe, take young Ororo on a picnic. She is already talking by this time. 

UX 96-FB: In Cairo, NDare and Ororo go for a walk. 

UO 9 Page 3: Cairo Six years on: The family is in Cairo, because David is a photojournalist who has been sent to Egypt to cover the war situation. He is accompanies by NDare and Ororo. Ororo is drawing a picture of a mountain. David regrets bringing his family with him, because of the danger. NDare says that they are there because he is. NDare says that she remembers a man who had the nerve to approach a Kenyan princess in an American embassywho later asked her to make a new life with him. We can see a plane in the background. 

UX 102-FB: Five years after the move to Cairo, planes attack the city. At the Munroes family hotel room, we see planes and explosions in the sky. David says the French are bombing, and tells NDare to take Ororo and head for the American embassy. Unfortunately a bomber crashes into the hotel. David has just enough time to tell his family to get down, before the hotel collapses. 

(UO 9 Page 4: Moments later fighter bombers fill the sky. One crashes into the Munroe familys hotel. David shouts a warning to get down. This is shown in UX 102-FB, nothing new is added here.) 

UX 96-FB: Ororo lies unconscious, under a lot of rubble. 

UX 102-FB: Ororo wakes up, and sees her mothers corpse underneath the rubble. 

XU 7-FB: Ororo sees the bodies of both of her parents, and screams. 

UO 9 Page 5: Ororo crawls through the pit to escape. She manages to climb towards the surface. 

UX 102-FB: Ororo reaches the surface. 

UO 9 Page 6 Panels 1-3: Cairo streets: Weeks have passed Ororo is begging on the streets. Street urchins approach her, and wish to take her to meet Achmed El Gibar, their master. 

UX 102-FB: Ororo talks to the urchins, who take her to meet Achmed. 

UO 9 Page 6 Panels 4-6: Achmed tells Ororo that he thinks she will not survive in Cairo, unless he teaches her how to. 

XU 7-FB: Achmed accepts Ororo into the ranks of the thieves. He teaches her how to pick pockets. She goes out and steals her first wallet, Achmed is proud of her. 

UO 9 Page 7: Cairo The Years roll on Ororo has learned how to pick locks, and to be a thief. She has become Achmeds favorite. But the plane crash still haunts her dreams. Ororo wakes screaming during the night. 

UX 113-FB: Achmed teaches Ororo how to open a safe, with her feet. 

Storm 2-FB: Ororo steals a wallet. 

X60-FB: Ororo stakes out a mansion in Kasime, near Cairo. She uses a rope to descend into the building, avoiding the guards, and grabs a gem. Suddenly a white glow erupts from the gem case, it explodes killing the guards. Ororo fled, and watched from a distance as the building was destroyed. When she showed Achmed the gem, he told her that he would keep it for her, until she was old enough to understand what she had done this day. 

UX 117-FB: On the streets of Cairo, Ororo steals Xaviers wallet. She runs, he realizes what has happened, and chases after her. On a deserted side street, he uses his telepathy to freeze her in place, recovering his wallet. Then he is struck down by a psychic bolt from the Shadow King. Ororo runs off. 

(UO 9 Page 8-9: Cairo: daytime: Ororo steals Professor Xaviers wallet. His telepathic powers alert him to the situation, but she is fast and runs. Xavier uses his powers to keep her in one spot, and catches up. But then, the shadow King attacks Xavier, and Ororo runs. There is nothing new here.) 

UX 113-FB: Ororos final exam. Achmed locks her in a room, tied up. Her test is to escape from it without any help. Achmed says that If you are still here when I return you are not the pupil I thought you were, and you will deserve your fate. 

UO 9 Page 10: Ororo has a dream about her parents. She tells Achmed that she must journey into the wider world. 


UX 267-FB : On her way out of Egypt, Ororo accepts a ride with a man in a truck. Later, he tried to rape her. Storm struggles, he hit her, she stabbed him in the chest with her knife, killing him. 

UX 102-FB: Ororos journey south. Ororo walks across the plains. She is twelve when she left, and her (entire) journey (from Egypt to the Serengeti) takes a year. 

UO 9 Page 11-13: Africa: Years pass and Ororo has grown into a young woman. Since leaving Cairo she has followed the Nile to Khartoum, and the Sudan. Lately she has been drawn further south to the Kingdoms of Ethiopia and Kenya. A storm is brewing. Ororo observes it, and finds that she can feel it. A bolt of lightning crashes down, knocking her off her feet. She gets up and learns that she can control the storm. After she wills it to disappear, she lies back exhausted. 

UX 226-FB: Somewhere on the plain, Ororo calls upon the Bright Lady for the first time. 

M/TU 100/2-FB : Ororo walks across the plain. She hears a gunshot, sees TChalla being attacked by white men. She flies over to help, scattering most of the men. De Ruyter the Bull explains that the South African apartheid government wants to take TChalla prisoner. He and TChalla fight, but De Ruyter pulls out a dart gun. Ororo uses lightning to fry it. Then she flies off taking TChalla with her. 


(UO 9 Page 14: Day has broken There is a gunshot. Ororo summons the power of the winds, and flies. She finds TChalla being attacked by a private army in the pay of Apartheid South Africa. 
UO 9 Page 15: Ororo and TChalla fight the South Africans, Ororo using wind and lightning. She fires a bolt of lightning at DeRuyter the Bull, knocking him out, before he can shoot TChalla. These two pages are the same as M/TU 100/2-fb with less detail, and add nothing new.) 

UO 9 Page 16: later, an evening in the homelands Ororo and TChalla sit around a fire. TChalla plays the flute. The two decide that they must part as friends, because their paths lie in different directions. TChalla must return to Wakanda, and Ororo wishes to continue on her journey. 

BP 3 26: Dawn, Ororo and TChalla nearly kiss, but then they dont. They part and go their separate ways. 


UO 9 Page 17: The Serengeti Plains: Ororos long journey comes to an end. She meets Mshanga of the Masai tribe, who tells her that My tribe has dreamed of your coming at this time, on this spot, for many days. The Dreams which tell of the coming of the Goddess Ororo. Ororo finds herself surprised by the Mshangas use of the word Goddess. (He also knew her name without being told.) 

UO 9 Page 18: Ororo likes being a goddess. She uses the winds to fly. Mshanga and his sons are amazed. 

CX 10-FB: Ororo bathes, by flying through a waterfall, then talks to the tribal elders who ask for help to combat the drought that ravaged their land. She brings down a rainstorm to solve the problem 

X:HY 5 : Ororo meets the Beast. 
X:HY 6: Ororo and Hank find Jean, and Scott and fight Deluge, but are captured and tied to posts. 
X:HY 7: The team breaks free, and Storm takes back control of the weather, and the X-Men defeat Deluge. Ororo flies off. Jean says that the Professor already knows about Ororo, and a number of other mutants too. 


GSX 1 Pages 7-9: Under some type of stone arch, village elders offer to sacrifice animals to Ororo, if she will bring them rain. She says to save the animals, she will do as they plead. She brings down a rainstorm. As the villagers rejoice, Professor Xavier appears on the scene, to make Ororo an offer to leave Africa, and serve the world. 

UO 9 Page 19: Years have passed. The Goddess, now very much a woman. Ororo lives a solitary existence on the slopes of Mount Kilimanjaro. She controls the weather for the benefit of her people. She flies, and thinks about Xaviers offer to leave with him, and go to America. 

UO 9 Page 20: Arusha Airport, on board a plane, on the ground. Ororo talks to Xavier. He tells her that by going with him, she will be a valued member of his new X-men. She thinks he is too arrogant and snaps at him. A storm brews outside. He asks if she has made her decision. 

UO 9 Page 21: Ororo thinks about all the people in her life, some of whom (by leaving Africa) she may never again see. 

UO 9 Page 22: Panels 1-2: Ororo decides that now is the time to move on towards her destiny. 

GSX 1 
X:L 2-FB 
GSX 1: The New X-Men fight Krakoa 
CX 1 
UX 94 
CX 2 
UX 94 
CX 2/2 
CX 3/2-FB 
CX 2 
UX 94 
CX 2 
UX 94 
UX 95 
CX 3 
UX 95 
CX 3 
UX 95 
CX 3/2 
UX 96 
CX 4 
UX 96 

UO 9 Page 22: Panel 3: New York, outside. Banshee sets the timer on a camera. 

UO 9 Page 22: Panel 4: The New X-Men pose for a group photo. Present (and in costume) are Storm, Colossus, Wolverine, Cyclops, Banshee, and Nightcrawler. Also Professor Xavier, and Jean Grey. (Jean is not in costume, so this has to be after GSX 1. I put this between CX 3/2 and UX 97, due to Jeans availability to appear here. Any later and it would be in between the Christmas storyline, that leads to her being replaced by the Phoenix. Any earlier, would be in the middle of the X-Mens training period, and Thunderbird would be alive for the group photo. I could have put it before UX 96, but as Cyclops is still upset about Thunderbirds death, to the point of blasting things, this seems like the better fit.) 

UX 106-FB 
UX 97 

Here are the character listing changes. The first part of Ororos listing is so heavily changed, that I didnt bother showing the new items with stars. 


Storm Ororo Munroe 
UO 9 
UX 102-FB 
UX 265-FB 
UX 96-FB 
UO 9 
UX 102-FB 
UX 96-FB 
UX 102-FB 
XU 7-FB (this issue doesnt appear to be in the MCP yet.) 
UO 9 
UX 102-FB 
UO 9 
UX 102-FB 
UO 9 
XU 7-FB 
UO 9 
UX 113-FB 
STORM 2-FB 
X60-FB 
UX 117-FB 
UX 113-FB 
UO 9 
UX 267-FB 
UX 102-FB 
UO 9 
UX 226-FB 
M/TU 100/2-FB 
UO 9 
BP3 26 
UO 9 
CX 10-FB 
X:HY 5 
X:HY 6 
X:HY 7 
GSX 1 
UO 9 

Also: 
CX 3/2 
UX 96 
CX 4 
UX 96 
*UO 9 
UX 106-FB 
UX 97 

Professor Xavier 

GSX1 
*UO 8 (see my Nightcrawlers origin thread) 
GSX 1 
*UO 9 
GSX 1 

Also: 
UX 96 
CX 4 
UX 96 
*UO 9 
UX 106-FB 

Munroe, David 
*UO 9 
UX 102-FB 
*UX 265-FB 
*UO 9 
UX 102-FB 

Munroe, NDare 
*UO 9 
UX 102-FB 
*UX 265-FB 
UX 96-FB 
*UO 9 
UX 102-FB 

El Gibar, Achmed 
UX 102-FB 
*UO 9 
*XU 7-FB 
*UO 9 
*UX 113-FB 
X60-FB 
UX 113-FB 
*UO 9 
*XU 7 

Colossus 
UX 96 
CX 4 
UX 96 
*UO 9 
UX 106-FB 
UX 97 

Wolverine 
UX 96 
CX 4 
UX 96 
*UO 9 
UX 106-FB 

Cyclops 
UX 96 
CX 4 
UX 96 
*UO 9 
UX 106-FB 
UX 97 

Banshee 
UX 96 
CX 4 
UX 96 
*UO 9 
UX 106-FB 

Nightcrawler 
UX 96 
CX 4 
UX 96 
*UO 9 
UX 106-FB 

Marvel Girl (Jean Grey) 
CX 3/2 
*UO 9 
UX 97

			*	*	*

Thread 61

Posted: 04 May 2004 07:54 pm    Post subject: Nightcrawler's origin (incorporating Uncanny Origins 8)
By Dhall

In view of our discussion about Uncanny Origins, I've decided to start incorporating some of the X-issues into the MCP. First up, Nightcrawler. 
Uncanny Origins 8, is listed as UO 8. In doing so, I have found that this issue contains all cannon material. In fact, the material matches up very well with previously shown material, with one or two exceptions, as noted below. 

Nightcrawlers origin 

UO 8 Page 1  Splash/Introduction page  no new material 


UX 428  Kurt is born, the townsfolk think hes a demon, and when Mystique reverts to her true form, they think shes one too. She flees towards the falls, and tosses Kurt off. He survives by teleporting to the bottom of the falls. (We see this same event as a fb in XU 4) 

(UO 8 Page 2  Mystique, being chased by townsfolk with torches shape shifts, then tosses Kurt off a waterfall.) Note: This is essentially the same scene as in UX 428/XU 4  Fb, only in this one the townspeople catch up to Mystique, after she shape shifts, and then she throws the baby off the cliff. I would say that UX 428 should be considered the cannon version of this scene, as its not shown in Flashback, and is also consistent with the Fb in XU 4) 

New Material: 
UO 8 Page 3  Margali finds young baby Kurt, at the base of the waterfall. 

Excal 77-Fb: Kurt (as a young boy) loses his friend Christian, because his father is afraid of Kurts appearance. Margali comforts Kurt. 

New Material: 
UO 8 Page 4- Panel 1: Kurt grows up with Jimaine (Amanda), Stefan, and other circus folk. 

UX @ 4-Fb Page 31 panels 4-5: Kurt and Stefan become Blood brothers, and Stefan has Kurt swear that if he ever takes an innocent life, that Kurt will kill him. 

(UO 8 Page 4 Panels 2-5: Stefan has Kurt swear a blood oath to kill him, in the event that Stefan ever turns evil. Note: This is the same scene as in UX @4-fb) 

New Material: 
UO 8 Page 5 : Kurt imitates Errol Flynn at a theatre, but is mistaken for a demon and has to flee 
UO 8 Page 6: Kurt runs home to Margali, covered in dirt. 
UO 8 Page 7-8: Kurt joins the circus, and begins learning from the trapeze master Sabu. 

XU 4- FB: Kurt at age 14 flirts with Jimaine. Jimaine tries to convince him to leave the circus and explore the world, but Kurt isnt ready for that yet. 

New Material: 
UO 8 Page 9: After Years of training, Kurt is ready for the spotlight. Margali suggests that he wears a mask to hide his identity, but Kurt will have none of it. 
UO 8 Page 10-11: Kurt and Jimaine perform in the circus for the first time. She slips from a swing, and he teleports to save her life. In the shadows, Stefan watches. His dark side has already taken control of him, and he is not happy about what he sees. 
UO 8 Page 12: As the months march by, Kurt performs in the circus. 


Excalibur 77 FB: Kurts old friends, Christian comes to visit Kurt at the circus, to apologize, and to introduce Kurt to his son, Amil. 

New Material: 
UO 8 Page 13: Amos Jardine, the new American owner of the circus wishes to take Kurt and a few other acts to Florida to perform there, in a freak show. 
UO 8 Page 14: Kurt decides to leave the circus instead of doing this. He tells his decision to leave to Margali, Jimaine, and Sabu. (Stefan has already left to see the world himself.) 

Note: As far as I can tell, there is no Fb in M/tu 89, however there is a bit of expository dialogue in that issue, explaining that when Jardine bought the circus, he took Kurt off the High wire, and put him in the freak show, that night Kurt ran away, two days later he joined the X-Men. (Since we actually get to see this on panel in UO 8, these scenes replace M/TU 89-Fb in Kurts listing.) 

Excalibur -1: Before Kurt leaves, he makes his final performance at the circus. He makes an attempt to persuade Jimaine to come with him and see the world, just like she has always wanted to. He is able to convince her, but Margali persuades Jimaine that her path lies down a magical route. She shows Jimaine visions of Belasco, in order to persuade her that she has a greater responsibility to the winding way. Jimaine has a practice session with Sabu. They discuss Margali, and Jimaine says that she will leave with Kurt. Margali decides that a sacrifice will keep Jimaine with her. Belasco also shows up to taunt Jimaine. In Kurts final performance with Sabu, Sabus trapeze snaps and he falls. Kurt tried to teleport, but was not fast enough. Kurt leaves the circus, Jimaine decides that she must stay with Margali. 

New Material: 
UO 8 Page 15: Two days later, Kurt tracks down Stefan in a camp outside the town of Winzeldorf, Germany. Stefan is surrounded by a pile of his victims. Stefan tells Kurt that he fells that Kurt stole his place in his family, and in the circus, and that he is going to kill every child who shows signs of becoming a beast like you. Kurt remembers his oath and attacks Stefan. 

UX @ 4-Fb Page 32 Panel 6, Page 33 panel 1: Kurt and Stefan fight 

UO 8 Page 16: Kurt and Stefan fight, Kurt kicks Stefan who falls backwards and hits his head on a large rock, and dies. 

UX @ 4-FB Page 33 Panel 2: Kurt holds Stefans body. 

UO 8 Page 17: Kurt tries to help Stefan. A hunter comes across the scene, sees the bodies of Stefans victims, and assumes that Kurt is the murderer. Kurt flees. 

(Note it is impossible to reconcile the accounts in UX @ 4 (and UO 8) with the one shown in MCP 103-fb. In that issue they fight in a house, then fall back through a window, then Kurt wraps his tail around Stefans neck, Stefan talks about how he sees monsters, then pulls Kurts tail tight, chocking himself, and then his neck snaps. This is NOT what we see in UX @4, or in UO 8, where Kurt and Stefan are fighting outside for the entire fight.) 

GSX 1 Pages 2-4: Kurt flees from a crowd, Xavier saves his life. 

(Note: Pages 18-21 are a retelling of Pages 2-4 of Giant Size X-Men 1. 
UO 8 Page 18: Kurt flees through Winzeldorf, while the villagers chase him with torches. He climbs up a wall. 
UO 8 Page 19: Kurt realizes that he cant get away, so he jumps into the crowd and prepares to fight. 
UO 8 Page 20: Professor Xavier appears, and uses his powers to make the villagers freeze in place. 
UO 8 Page 21: Prof. X explains who he is, and asks Kurt to come back to America with him.) 

New Material: 
UO 8 Page 22: Kurt and Xavier are aboard a plane, on the way to New York. Xavier tells Kurt that he should pick a codename and costume. Kurt says he will wear his circus costume, and call himself Nightcrawler. 
UO 8 Page 23: Panel 1: This Scene continues, as in his mind, Kurt wishes farewell to his family, and Sabu. 


X:L 2-FB: Kurt watches while Logan tests Colossus. 
GSX 1  The New X-Men are assembled for the first time. 

UO 8 Page 23 Panel 2: This is a montage talking about how Kurt went on to serve in the X-Men, then in Excalibur. Nothing new here. 

I didnt bother putting * for new apps in Kurts listing, since I am proposing making major changes. Let me know what you think.. 

Dave H 


Nightcrawler 
UX 428 
UO 8 
XCAL 77-FB 
UO 8 
UX @4-FB 
UO 8 
XU 4-FB 
UO 8 
XCAL 77-FB 
UO 8 
XCAL -1 
UO 8 
UX@4-FB 
UO 8 
UX @4-Fb 
UO 8 
GSX 1 
UO 8 
GSX 1 
X:L 2-FB 
GSX 1 


Margali Szardos 
*UO 8 
*XCAL 77-FB 
*UO 8 
XCAL -1 
UX @4 

Daytripper (Amanda Sefton/ Jimaine Szardos) 
*UO 8 
XU 4-FB 
*UO 8 
XCAL -1 

Stefan Szardos 
*UO 8 
*UX @4-FB 
*UO 8 
*UX @4-FB 
*UO 8 
*UX @4-FB 
*UO 8 

Professor Xavier 
GSX 1 
*UO 8 
GSX 1 

Sabu 
*UO 8 
XCAL -1 


Jardine, Amos (New listing) 
UO 8 
MT/U 89

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 May 2004 10:21 pm
By SeanCurtin

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
UX 428  Kurt is born, the townsfolk think hes a demon, and when Mystique reverts to her true form, they think shes one too. She flees towards the falls, and tosses Kurt off. He survives by teleporting to the bottom of the falls. (We see this same event as a fb in XU 4) 

(UO 8 Page 2  Mystique, being chased by townsfolk with torches shape shifts, then tosses Kurt off a waterfall.) Note: This is essentially the same scene as in UX 428/XU 4  Fb, only in this one the townspeople catch up to Mystique, after she shape shifts, and then she throws the baby off the cliff. I would say that UX 428 should be considered the cannon version of this scene, as its not shown in Flashback, and is also consistent with the Fb in XU 4) 
<<<


If memory serves, MCP policy is to list the original published source of any given scene, regardless of whether or not it's a flashback or a "contemporary" sequence. So this scene would be best listed like this: 

UX 4-FB ~ UO 8 ~ UX 428 

assuming that the version of this scene seen in UO 8 contains information not already revealed in UX 4-FB, and that the version seen in UX 428 contains information not already seen in either of the other issues. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 May 2004 10:50 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
If memory serves, MCP policy is to list the original published source of any given scene, regardless of whether or not it's a flashback or a "contemporary" sequence. 
<<<


Correct. 

Sean Curtin wrote: 
>>>
So this scene would be best listed like this: 

UX 4-FB ~ UO 8 ~ UX 428 

assuming that the version of this scene seen in UO 8 contains information not already revealed in UX 4-FB, and that the version seen in UX 428 contains information not already seen in either of the other issues. 
<<<


Incorrect. Per your assumption above, the listing would reflect the order that the scenes occur in, for example: 

XU 4-FB (presumably not UX) 
UO 8 
XU 4-FB 
UX 428 
UO 8 
XU 4-FB 

or countless other variations. Use of the "~" is reserved almost exclusively for either time travel or concurrently published stories. Flashbacks and the "~" are pretty much mutually exclusive. If UO 8 or UX 428 contain no new information, they aren't listed, in deference to the previously published XU 4. If they do contain new information, the appearances are incorporated and treated just like any other appearances. 


watching: king of the hill

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 May 2004 12:49 am    
By SeanCurtin

Well, I think I worded that badly. Rather, what I meant was: if (for example) UO 8 reveals certain things that occurred concurrently with the exact same scene shown in XU 4-FB, then the listing would be XU 4-FB ~ UO 8 rather than simply XU 4-FB. 

For example--this is an example, I don't have UO 8--say that both XU 4-FB and UO 8 both depict the exact same scene of Mystique being chased out of town, but while the original flashback didn't give dialogue to the people chasing Mystique, UO 8 did. That would be sufficient new information to merit a dual inclusion for XU 4-FB ~ UO 8. Right? 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 May 2004 08:36 am    
By Dhall

Let's talk about the specific situation we have. 

XU 4-FB though published first, is essesntially a flashback to events shown in UX 428, and provides no additional information, therefore we would not need to list it. (We might list it, until UX 428 is analyzed and put in the MCP, but that's a seperate issue.) 

The equivelent scene in UO 8, is actually one of the few cases of UO slightly contradicting something that we've previously seen. 

In this case, in Xu 4-Fb and later shown in UX 428 we see Mystique throw Kurt over the falls, shape shift, and then the villagers catch up with her, she explains that she threw the demon child over the falls. 

In UO 8 Page 2, Mystique shapeshifts, the villagers ctach up to her, she is holding Kurt, and then throws him over the falls. 

It's a minor difference, but it is a case where we have to make a choice between two slightly different versions of the same scene. 

It does add more information than XU 4-FB did, BUT contradicts that FB. 

I say we go with the version shown in UX 428, which is the most complete version of this sequence of events, and does not contradict XU 4-FB. 

There is one other case like this (though a bit different) in UO 8. 

That is in the sequence of events where Kurt kills Stefan, UO 8 presents a much expanded version of the events from UX @ 4-FB (which devotes 3 panels to something that important.) 

UO 8 complements this sequence, and fits into it, as I described in my earlier post. 

However, both UO 8 AND UX @4 -FB both contradict the version shown in 
MCP 103-FB. 

The fight in UO 8 and UX @4-FB takes place outside the whole time, and during the daytime. The one shown in MCP 103-FB is at night, and mostly inside, and Stefan dies in a different fashion than in the other two versions. 

Here I propose we go with both UX 4@-FB and UO 8. 
We should throw out MCP 103-FB (This isn't Kurt's fb anyway, it is the mutant/demon/whatever (I can't remember what the guy was supposed to be) from MCP 103 recalling the events. 

Here we have a case where UO agrees with the originally shown event, but not with a later retelling. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 May 2004 12:11 am    
By SeanCurtin

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
XU 4-FB though published first, is essesntially a flashback to events shown in UX 428, and provides no additional information, therefore we would not need to list it. (We might list it, until UX 428 is analyzed and put in the MCP, but that's a seperate issue.) 
<<<


The first published instance of a scene is the version listed on the MCP, regardless of whether or not it's a flashback. As the sequence in UX 428 is a retelling of a previously-depicted scene, it doesn't get included. If there is anything new in UX 428 not already seen in XU 4-FB, it would be included; otherwise, it's only a retelling. 

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
In this case, in Xu 4-Fb and later shown in UX 428 we see Mystique throw Kurt over the falls, shape shift, and then the villagers catch up with her, she explains that she threw the demon child over the falls. 

In UO 8 Page 2, Mystique shapeshifts, the villagers ctach up to her, she is holding Kurt, and then throws him over the falls. 

It's a minor difference, but it is a case where we have to make a choice between two slightly different versions of the same scene. 

It does add more information than XU 4-FB did, BUT contradicts that FB. 

I say we go with the version shown in UX 428, which is the most complete version of this sequence of events, and does not contradict XU 4-FB. 
<<<


Agreed with not using the discrepant UO 8 version here, but again, XU 4-FB would be the version used since it was published first. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 May 2004 08:02 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
3. Was this appearance a flashback to some previous story, with no new information imparted (what the denizens of our Posting Board call a "rehashback")? If yes, we'll have the appearance listed where the flashback was originally told.  
<<<


This would be the policy you are referring to, I believe. 

I'm not quite sure that what you say is correct though. 

XU 4-FB is a flashback to a later published story, with no new information imparted. Why would we treat that issue any differently than "a flashback to some previous story, with no new information imparted." just because UX 428 was published later? There's lots of new info in UX 428 about Kurt, like him being born, and how he survives the fall off the cliff,that isn't in XU 4-FB. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 May 2004 08:48 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

We're not treating it differently. You say above that we shouldn't include XU 4-FB, once UX 428 is analyzed, although I'm not sure why--perhaps solely because it's a flashback. Sean is saying that if UX 428 shows new information, it should be included, like so: 

UX 428 
XU 4-FB 
UX 428 

and if it doesn't include new information, UX 428 should be ignored. The distinction here is that if UX 428 has new information both before and after the XU 4-FB, and it also includes a retelling of the XU 4-FB, it is the retelling in UX 428 that gets ignored. 

The key phrase in the FAQ, which you seem to be ignoring here, is where was the story "orginally told"? 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 May 2004 05:28 pm    
By Dhall

Okay. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 May 2004 11:19 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
XU 4-FB is a flashback to a later published story, with no new information imparted. 
<<<


I think that's where your logic is going wrong. The flashback in X-MEN UNLIMITED #4 does indeed impart new information, precisely because the fuller account hasn't been published yet. It might be fleshed out in a later story, but it remains the original source. 

To look at it another way: once an appearance is entered in the MCP, it doesn't come out again (unless it's retconned away entirely, of course). Later versions elaborate on it, but do not replace it.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 May 2004 12:49 pm    
By Dhall

Yes, I already agreed with that. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Thread 62

Posted: 10 May 2004 04:27 pm    Post subject: Uncanny Origins #12: Doctor Strange
By SeanCurtin

UNCANNY ORIGINS #12 (Aug 1997) 

Framing sequence: Dr. Strange narrates his origin on his late father's birthday (June 30). Occurs between SENSM 23 and JIM 513. 

Flashbacks are almost entirely interspersed with scenes from ST 115/2. Where a scene is a retelling, dialogue in most panels differs slightly but not by much. Altered dialogue is not noted below, unless sufficiently different from the source material. 

I don't have DRSTR3 45, 84 or 85, so I'm not sure if the flashbacks to Strange's childhood in this issue are retellings or not, and if not, where they go in relation to these new scenes. 

In sequence (new scenes/dialogue marked with **), not counting ads: 

(ST 115/2 p1 and UO 12 p1 are both pin-ups.) 

**UO 12-FB p4pn1-6: The Stranges (Stephen, his mother Beverly, his younger brother Victor and his older sister Donna) are ready to celebrate little Stevie's birthday, but Strange's father Eugene comes home late and scolds them for wasting time and money on a party. Stephen Strange looks to be about seven years old. 
**UO 12-FB p5pn1-6: Stephen tells his father about an award he won at school, and is reprimanded for caring about silly, unprofitable things. 
**UO 12-FB p6pn1-6: Stephen's next birthday party. Having taken after his father, he throws a tantrum over the fact that the family is bothering with a party, throws the cake against the wall, and storms out. 

**UO 12-FB p7pn1: Stephen in a bar during his college days, halfway collapsed onto his table. 
**UO 12-FB p7pn2: Dr. Strange graduates from med school at the head of his class. 
**UO 12-FB p7pn3: Dr. Strange, in the office where he practices medicine, drinking. 
**UO 12-FB p7pn4: Continuation of previous panel, but with metaphorical "demons" swirling around Strange's head. 

ST 115/2-FB p2pn8-9, p3pn1-2, UO 12-FB p7pn1-4: Demonstrations of Strange's callousness. 
**UO 12-FB p7pn5: Dr. Strange, exhausted and possibly drunk, driving his car. 
**UO 12-FB p7pn6: The car has crashed, but nobody's yet arrived to help. 
ST 115/2-FB p3pn3: Strange's wreck is found. 
**UO 12-FB p8pn1: The doctor's speech here opens with "Stephen, we've performed every possible test we can think of and--well," 
ST 115/2-FB p3pn4-6, UO 12-FB p8pn1-3: "I don't know how to tell you this..." Strange learns of the loss of the use of his hands. 
ST 115/2-FB p3pn7, UO 12-FB p8pn4: Strange turns down a job as another doctor's assistant. 
ST 115/2-FB p3pn8, UO 12-FB p8pn5: Strange broods alone at home as his fortune becomes exhausted. 
ST 115/2-FB p3pn9, UO 12-FB p9pn1: Strange, now derelict, hears of the Ancient One. 
ST 115/2-FB p4pn1, UO 12-FB p9pn2: Strange decides to find the Ancient One. 
**UO 12FB p9pn2: Strange's decision concludes with him thinking "I've got to know!" 

**UO 12-FB p9pn3: Strange in the mountains sees the Ancient One's abode atop the nearest mountain. 
ST 115/2 p2pn1, UO 12-FB p9pn4: Strange enters the Ancient One's home. 
ST 115/2 p2pn2-4, UO 12-FB p9pn5, p10: Strange meets the Ancient One, and is told that he must prove himself worthy of assistance. 
ST 115/2 p2pn5-6, UO 12-FB p11pn 1-2: Strange is levitated and his mind read. 
ST 115/2 p4pn2, UO 12-FB p11pn2-3: The Ancient One determines that Strange is unworthy, but that there is a spark of decency within him. 
**UO 12-FB p11pn3: Strange: "Wh-What are you saying?!" 
ST 115/2 p4pn 3-4, UO 12-FB p11pn4-5: The Ancient One suggests that Strange remain as his pupil. Strange calls the Ancient One a fraud, and the Ancient One summons a snowstorm to prevent his exit. 
ST 115/2 p4pn5, UO 12-FB p11pn6: This panel shows the outside of the Ancient One's temple in ST 115/2, but shows Strange and the Ancient One in UO 12-FB. Strange accuses the Ancient One of having conjured the storm, then chides himself. The Ancient One notes that Strange would never allow himself to believe in magic... 
ST 115/2 p4pn5, (UO 12-FB p11pn7): "...It would be unseemly!" In ST 115/2 this dialogue is delivered by the Ancient One; in UO 12, it is delivered by the off-panel Mordo. 
**UO 12-FB p11pn7, p12: Strange reacts to Mordo's entrance: "Who?!" Strange is introduced to Mordo. 
ST 115/2 p4pn6, UO 12-FB p12: The Ancient One asks Mordo to show Strange to his chamber. 
**UO 12-FB p12: Ancient One: "It appears he will be with us for a while." Mordo: "Your request is my honor, master!" 
ST 115/2 p4pn7, UO 12-FB p13pn1: Strange observes Mordo. Strange's monologue is an internal one in UO 12. 
ST 115/2 p4pn8-9, UO 12-FB p13pn2-3: Strange sees the Vapors of Valtorr attack the Ancient One. 
ST 115/2 p5pn1-2, UO 12-FB p13pn4-5: The Ancient One banishes the Vapors. 
ST 115/2 p5pn3-4, UO 12-FB p14pn1-2: Strange approaches the weakened the Ancient One. 
ST 115/2 p5pn5, UO 12-FB p14pn3: Strange wonders that he might become a believer. In UO 12, this monologue is internal. 
ST 115/2 p5pn6-8, UO 12-FB p14pn4-6, p15pn1: Strange stumbles onto Mordo's ritual invoking Dormammu. 
ST 115/2 p6pn1: Mordo reveals his plans, as super-villains are wont to do. 
ST 115/2 p6pn2, UO 12-FB p15pn2: Strange threatens to tell the Ancient One of Mordo's treachery; Mordo laughs it off. 
**UO 12-FB p15pn2: Mordo reveals that he plans to become the Sorcerer Supreme. 
ST 115/2 p6pn2-3, UO 12-FB p15pn3: "Behold!!" Mordo casts his spell. 
ST 115/2 p6pn4-6, UO 12-FB p15pn4-6: Mordo's spell binds Strange's mouth. 
ST 115/2 p6pn7-9, UO 12-FB p16pn1-3: Strange is physically bound by the magic as well. 
ST 115/2 p7pn1-3, UO 12-FB p16pn4-6: Strange tests the spell, and is prevented from acting against Mordo. 
ST 115/2 p7pn4-7, UO 12-FB p17pn1-4: Strange tries to warn the Ancient One, but cannot. 
ST 115/2 p7pn8, UO 12-FB p18pn1: Strange admits that he believes in magic, and vows to not give up. 
**UO 12-FB p16pn2: Strange: "There must be something I can do here... hmmm..." 
ST 115/2 p8pn1, UO 12-FB p18pn2: Strange decides to become the Ancient One's pupil. 
ST 115/2 p8pn 2-5, UO 12-FB p18pn3-6: Strange requests to become the Ancient One's pupil. He is accepted, and Mordo's spell removed. 

ST 115/2 p8pn6, UO 12-FB p19: Montage of Strange in training, reading scrolls and performing relatively low-key spells. 
**UO 12-FB p19: Montage of Strange in training, practicing more involved spells, such as astral projection. 

**UO 12-FB p20pn1-3: Mordo looks on in contempt as the Ancient One tells Strange that his time as a student is over. He's wearing the Cloak of Levitation and the Ancient One calls him "Sorcerer Supreme", and Strange hadn't obtained either the cloak or the title until some time later, so either this scene occurs later in the chronology or the cloak and reference to Strange's title need to be ignored as errors. I'm assuming the latter, given Mordo's continuing presence. 

**UO 12 p2-3, 21: Dr. Strange in the present, on his late father's birthday, recounts his origin and forgives his father. 

-Sean

Last edited by SeanCurtin on 10 May 2004 08:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 May 2004 08:13 pm    Post subject: Minor correction
By Jason Doty

Should'nt the issue be UO 12 instead of UO 8.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 May 2004 08:34 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Yes, yes it should. -sigh- 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 May 2004 09:20 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Framing sequence: Dr. Strange narrates his origin on his late father's birthday (June 30). Occurs between SENSM 23 and JIM 513. 
<<<



Sean, is this placement for Strange based on publication order or are there in-story references that suggest the sequence of appearances?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 02:39 am  
By Peter Fabricius

I have those issues, so I'll add a few comments. 

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
**UO 12-FB p7pn4: Continuation of previous panel, but with metaphorical "demons" swirling around Strange's head. 
<<<

Those demons are real, as seen in DRSTR3 84 and 85, they are sent by Mordo. 

Quote: 
>>>
**UO 12-FB p7pn5: Dr. Strange, exhausted and possibly drunk, driving his car. 
**UO 12-FB p7pn6: The car has crashed, but nobody's yet arrived to help. 
<<<


This corresponds to DRSTR3 85-FB p16pn1-3 and DRSTR3 85-FB p16 pn4 respectively. The car is green here and is open, not blue. 
And in DRSTR3 45-FB p18pn3-5 and DRSTR3 45-FB p19pn1, it is a red open car. (Just how many cars did he crash? :laughing: ) 

Quote: 
>>>
ST 115/2-FB p3pn3: Strange's wreck is found. 
<<<

DRSTR3 85-FB p17pn1 has Strange walking away from the crash, where ST 115/2-FB p3pn3 has the rescuers call for an ambulance, possibly he was less seriously hurt than they thought, and got out of the car after the call. 

There are a few more flashbacks in those three issues, I could probably do a writeup of them later today, putting them into the correct places in your list, as I have UO12 and Essential Doctor Strange.[/quote]
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 07:33 pm    
By ShadZ

Peter Fabricius wrote: 
>>>

Quote: 
>>>
**UO 12-FB p7pn5: Dr. Strange, exhausted and possibly drunk, driving his car. 
**UO 12-FB p7pn6: The car has crashed, but nobody's yet arrived to help. 
<<<


This corresponds to DRSTR3 85-FB p16pn1-3 and DRSTR3 85-FB p16 pn4 respectively. The car is green here and is open, not blue. 
And in DRSTR3 45-FB p18pn3-5 and DRSTR3 45-FB p19pn1, it is a red open car. (Just how many cars did he crash?  ) 
<<<
 


Who does Dr. Strange think he is -- Billy Joel?
_________________
ShadZ

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 01:59 am    
By Peter Fabricius

Just to add one more. DRSTR2 56 also has a flashback to the accident. Red open car, but not hitting a roadside tree, going over a cliff.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 06:21 am    
By Starman

Peter Fabricius wrote: 
>>>
(Just how many cars did he crash? :laughing: ) 
<<<


No wonder he couldn't use his hands anymore. Accumulated damage. :wink:
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Thread 63

Posted: 11 May 2004 04:44 pm    Post subject: Iron Fist v2 #1-2
By michel

Iron Fist Vol.2 #1, 09/96 by James Felder / Robert Brown / Rey Garcia 

This story continues from Marvel Comics Presents #125-132 (in the first gap), where Iron Fist acquired the Anomaly Gem, a doorway to the Contemplator's dimension. The power of his iron fist still fluctuant, Danny trusts the Contemplator and has chasing down pieces of the Anomaly. He finds the last one in the K'un Lun mountains and finds out he has been tricked : once complete, the Gem shatters and frees Steel Serpent, who was there since his defeat in Marvel Team-Up #64. The Contemplator's goal was to set "the trial to pick he who will wield the fist" (Lei Kung will later say "legend says the Contemplator appears at crucial times to restore the cosmic balance of power"). Steel Serpent wins the Iron Fist from Danny, then meets his father Lei Kung in K'un Lun. Danny is almost killed by wolves but is saved by Misty Knight and Colleen Wing who were looking for him. Then Lei Kung asks Danny to fight his iron fist back in K'un Lun. 

Characters : Iron Fist, the Contemplator, Steel Serpent, Lei Kung, Colleen Wing, Misty Knight 

Iron Fist Vol.2 #2, 10/96 by James Felder / Robert Brown / Rey Garcia 

Danny is filled with doubt, but an inner search and the meeting of the skeleton of his father in the K'un Lun mountains gives him his faith back. Then, in K'un Lun, in front of the Dragon Kings, he fights his iron fist back, but refuses to kill Serpent Steel. 

Characters : Iron Fist, Lei Kung, Colleen Wing, Misty Knight, Wendell Rand-K'ai (his skeleton), Yu-Ti and the Dragon Kings 

The iron fist is still weak in Daredevil #329. I will check Spider-Man Unlimited #13 later when I'll have it available. 

IRON FIST/DANIEL RAND 
DD 329 
ASMU 13 
**IF2 1 
**IF2 2 
HFH 1 

CONTEMPLATOR/TATH KI [ELDER] 
Q 40 
[M/CP 132/2 First Gap] 
**IF2 1 

STEEL SERPENT II/DAVOS 
**M/TU 64-FB (instead of M/TU 64) 
{IF 1} 
IF 15 
M/TU 63 
M/TU 64 
**IF2 1 
**IF2 2 
NW2 5 

LEI KUNG, THE THUNDERER 
N 23 
**IF2 1 
**IF2 2 

WING, COLLEEN 
ASMU 13 
**IF2 1 
**IF2 2 
HFH 10 

KNIGHT, MISTY 
N 34 
ASMU 13 
**IF2 1 
**IF2 2 
DD 353 

**RAND-K'AI, WENDELL 
**M/TU 64-FB 
**M/PRM 15-FB 
**IF2 2 

I will check Iron Fist / Wolverine #2 later when I'll have it available 

AUGUST PERSONAGE IN JADE/YU-TI 
PM&IF 119-FB 
**IF2 2 
IFW 2-FB 
IFW 2 

Michel

Last edited by michel on 12 May 2004 08:25 am; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 11 May 2004 09:45 pm 
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I have this series happening between ASMU 13 and M/FAN2 6, with ASMU 13 occurring after DD 329 and M/FAN2 6 occurring before HFH 1. 

I only have issue #2 of IF2. This occurs the same night as IF2 1 and into early the following morning. There is a full moon. Are there any temporal references of any sort in IF2 1? Please remember to include those in issue analyses. Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 May 2004 08:55 am    
By michel

Yes there are some temporal references in issue #1. 

p1-p3pn2, Iron Fist fights guards in a border station in the K'un Lun mountains. We barely see the sky, it seems to be night-time. 

p3pn3-p4, Danny rests in the Drunken Ape Inn. Night-time, full moon. The station incident was "just another stumble in a week-long flight out of communist China". 

p5-p9, it's still night-time ("who else would ride these roads at this hour ?") , presumably the same night. Iron Fist frees Serpent Steel and is defeated. 

p10-p15, the sun rises on K'un Lun. Serpent Steel meets his father while Iron Fist fight wolves. 

p16-p24, from sunset to the beginning of the night, full moon. Colleen, Misty and Lei Kung meet Iron Fist. 

Michel

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Thread 64

Posted: 12 May 2004 02:16 pm    Post subject: X-Men Unlimited #13
By michel

X-Men Unlimited #13, 12/96 

1st story by George Perez and Jorge Gonzalez / Duncan Rouleau, Jim Calafiore and Andrew Robinson / Rob Hunter, Mark MacKenna and Al Milgrom 

p1-p21 : A team of X-Men (Cyclops, Phoenix, Beast, Bishop and Rogue) and Binary were asked by Peter Corbeau to provide assistance on the Starcore research station. Deathbird sends shi'ar troops to capture Binary (as a potential threat) at the same moment Binary's powers become uncontrolable. Then Lilandra claims that the Silver Surfer has destroyed Zenn-La. Then unusual activities are found at the white star Kiletra, star of the Clench worlds. 

p22-p37 : Later, with some flash-backs occuring in between pages 21 and 22. No other temporal reference, we're in space. The whole area in the triangle formed by the Sun, Zenn-La and Kiletra could be destroyed. The X-Men and the Silver Surfer find out the responsible are the Inciters, mysterious aliens. The Surfer and Rogue beat them. 

Flashback 1 : p22pn6-p23pn2. Binary must be taken care of. 
Characters : Beast, Phoenix, Cyclops, Bishop, Rogue 
Flashback 2 : p24pn5. Growing interstellar disturbances will come. 
Character : Beast 
Flashback 3 : p26pn1-2. Same stellar activity on the three spots. 
Characters : Beast, Rogue, Cyclops, Bishop, Phoenix, Lilandra, Deathbird 
Flashback 4 : p27pn4-6. The whole triangular area is in danger. 
Characters : Beast, Cyclops, Phoenix, Bishop, Deathbird, Lilandra 
To me it's a single flash-back framed in four sequences. 

p38-p39 : Epilogue. The X-Men's ship having been damaged, Bishop says the Starjammers loaned them one. Phoenix says the Surfer has returned to the Deneb system to mourn the death of his homeworld. Lilandra and Deathbird didn't say the X-Men the Inciters "have been an almost-forgotten part of shi'ar folklore for many generations". 

Characters : Peter Corbeau - BTS, Phoenix, Binary, Cyclops, Beast, Bishop, Rogue, Starcore's staff (including Doctor Barnes), Shi'ars officers (including Commander K'Illace), Deathbird, Lilandra, Silver Surfer, Inciters, the Starjammers - BTS 

Zenn-La (or rather the illusion of Zenn-La) was destroyed in Silver Surfer #122. The same X-Men and Binary are seen into the Starcore station when the Surfer comes to Earth in Silver Surfer #123. 

CORBEAU, DR. PETER 
IM 319 
**XU 13-BTS 
UX 360-BTS 

PHOENIX IV/JEAN GREY SUMMERS 
H2 455 
**XU 13 
**XU 13-FB 
**XU 13 
SS3 123 

BINARY/CAROL SUSAN JANE DANVERS 
A 351 
**XU 13 
SS3 123 

CYCLOPS II/SCOTT SUMMERS 
H2 455 
XFOR '96/2 
**XU 13 
**XU 13-FB 
**XU 13 
SS3 123 

BEAST/HENRY "HANK" P. MCCOY 
BEAST 3 
**XU 13 
**XU 13-FB 
**XU 13 
SS3 123 

BISHOP/LUCAS BISHOP 
X '96 
**XU 13 
**XU 13-FB 
**XU 13 
SS3 123 

ROGUE 
X '96 
**XU 13 
**XU 13-FB 
**XU 13 
SS3 123 

A note places this issue after X-Force / Cable '96 

DEATHBIRD [SHI'AR] 
XFOR '96 
**XU 13 
**XU 13-FB 
**XU 13 
UX 342 

The Imperial Guard flashbacks are during the Shi'ar / Phalanx war 

LILANDRA NERAMANI [SHI'AR] 
A 398 
**XU 13 
**XU 13-FB 
**XU 13 
GUARD 1-FB 
GUARD 2-FB 
UX 344 

SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD 
SS3 122 
XFOR '96 
**XU 13 
SS3 123 

The Starjammers are BTS, but we don't know exactly which ones. 


2nd story by Jorge Gonzalez / Greg Land / Mark MacKenna 

All Hallows' Eve. Night-time, full moon. The Juggernaut is back at Junction, "home of the annual All Hallows' Eve Festival". He had a bad experience here in his childhood. 

Flashback : Cain is a child (maybe ten years old), he's at the Festival with his parents. He leaves them to have a better look at the balloons but disturbs some guys. He talks back to them, so they pursue him and beat him. He's saved by the coming of a young girl, Marie. But he runs away, vowing that "no one would get the best o' Cain Marko ever again". 
Characters : Cain Marko, Kurt Marko and his first wife, Marie Cavendish 

Once again, some guys try to make fun of Cain. He reacts badly and begins to wreck the town, letting show his frustration after having been imprisoned in the Cyttorak Gem (a note says we're a few days after X-Men Unlimited #12). Gomurr the Ancient appears and shows him his wreckage has injured Marie Cavendish, the girl who saved him years ago : it is because "the moment you embraced the power of Cyttorak's gem, you forfeited your soul and forever became a victim of its curse !" 

Characters : Juggernaut, Gomurr, Marie Cavendish 

Marjory Marko is still alive. Mention of the curse is made in the Juggernaut one-shot. 

JUGGERNAUT/CAIN MARKO 
**XU 13/2-FB 
UX 12-FB 
XMF 4 
... 
XU 12 
**XU 13/2 
JUGGERNAUT 

MARKO, KURT 
**XU 13/2-FB 
UX 12-FB 
XMF 4 

**MARKO, MARJORY 
**XU 13/2-FB 

**CAVENDISH, MARIE 
**XU 13/2-FB 
**XU 13/2 

GOMURR 
XU 12 
**XU 13/2 
X 61

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Posted: 12 May 2004 03:06 pm    
By Dhall

I've never liked this issue. It is the one that would have us believe that both Jean Grey, and Rogue can fly through interstellar (and warp) space unaided (without even an air tube...) 


Dave

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Thread 65

Posted: 12 May 2004 11:07 pm    Post subject: Crimson Dawn 1
By Dhall

I sent this to Russ a while back, but I don't recall if I ever posted it to the board. 

CD 1 has made it's way into Angel's listing, but is still missing from Psylocke, Wolverine, Gomurr, Tar, and Kuragari's listings. 


Crimson Dawn 1 

August 1997 

Before the Break of Dawn 

Main Characters: 
Psylocke (Last App. X61, Next App. CD #2) 
Angel (Last App. X97, Next App. CD #2) 

Others: 
Wolverine (Last App. W2 114, Next App. UX 341) 
Gomurr (Last App. XU 13/2, Next App. CD 2) 
Tar (Last App. XU 12, Next App. CD 2) 
Kuragari (First App., Next App. CD #2) 

Plot: Kuragari kills Tars physical body. Gomurr takes care of the funeral rites. Angel tries to reach Psylocke, but she will hardly communicate with him. Logan stops by for a visit, and he and Warren bond. Betsy works out. Kuragari sends undercloaks to attack her. 

Chronology Note: 
Angel 
UX 338 
X 61 
X97 
XFOR 67 
**CD 1 
CD 2 
CD 3 
CD 4 



Psylocke 
UX 338 
X 96 
X 61 
**CD 1 
CD 2 
CD 3 
CD 4 


Wolverine 
H2 454 
H2 455 
X '97 
W2 111 
W2 112 
W2 113 
W2 114 
**CD 1 
UX 341 
X 62

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Thread 66

Posted: 09 May 2004 06:22 pm    Post subject: Angels Origin incorporating Uncanny Origins 3.
By Dhall

Angels Origin incorporating Uncanny Origins 3. 
This issue is a little more dodge than some of the other UO issues. The pages 2-7 as well as Page 12 contain new material. Most of the rest of the issue has bad retellings of events seen in UX 54/2-UX 56/2. 

I made the assumption (based on Warrens age) that L:SS (and X 29-FB) occurs before UX 54/2. I based this on the fact that we never see Warren at the Hellfire Club as a teenager, just while he was a boy. This makes the most sense if we place these issues before his parents decided to ship him off to private school. (Note that it is possible to place them between pages of UX 54/2, but as doing so seems out of place, I decided against it.) 

I also moved M/Fan 50-FB to later in Angels listing, as he is a teenager, and attending private school at the time. Its currently in the MCP during a period where he was a boy attending grade school. 

Let me know if you disagree with any of my assumptions. 

Dave H 

UO 3=Uncanny Origins 3 


UO 3: Page 1: Splash page, no new information. 

UO 3: Page 2: Panel 1: Warren plays croquet with his parents 
UO 3: Page 2 Panel 2: Warren excels at soccer and other sports. 
UO 3: Page 2 Panel 3: Warren takes a class at grade school. 

XF 47-FB: Page 5 Panels 2-4: In grade school, the other boys put a tin foil halo on Warren, because he is nice to the teacher. 
XF 47-FB: Page 5: Panels 5-7: At an expensive birthday party that his father held for him, Warren, instead of hanging out with the other kids, sits in his room watching the birds fly, until his father comes up and yells at him to get back to the party. 

L:SS: Warrens dad takes him, as a boy, to the Hellfire Club for the very first time. 

X 29-FB: At the Hellfire Club, as a boy, Warrens father introduces him to Sebastian and Shinobi Shaw. 

UX 54/2: Pages 1-2: Warren climbs a tree, then falls out of it, and lands in a swimming pool after being spooked by a bird. His parents decided to send him to a private school. 

XF 47-FB: Page 5 panel 8:Warren is dropped off at Fairburn Boys School for the first time. 
UO 3: Page 2 Panel 4: Warren is dropped off by his chauffeur at private school. (not necessarily the same time as the previous fb.) 
UO 3: Page 2 Panel 5: Warren becomes the most popular and envied boy at school. 

XF 47-FB Page 5:Panel 9:Warren reads a paper to his class about flight. 

XF 47-FB: Page 5: Panel 10: Warren attends a school dance. 

M/FAN 50-FB: Page 26 Panels 1-2: Warren goes to a school dance with Cressida, a mutant obsessed girl from the school across the river, and later takes a walk with her. (The caption notes that this is before he grew his wings.) 

UX 54/2: Page 3 Panels 1-4: Warren excels at sports, and academics. In the locker room, one of the boys notices that Warren has huge shoulder blades. 

UX 54/2: Page 3: Panel 4=5: Warren finds a feather in his bed, takes his shirt off, and realizes that he has wings. 

UO 3: Page 3: Warren removes his pajama top, and finds that his wings have grown larger. He can no longer deny them. 

UO 3: Page 4: Panel 1: Warren keeps his wings bound. 


UO 3: Page 4 Panel 2: Warren tries to drive distance between himself and his classmates, by acting strangely, in this panel he is wearing a trench coat to class, even though it is 70 degrees and sunny outside. 
UO 3: Page 4 Panel 3: Warrens wings have grown to full length. 
UO 3: Page 4 Panel 4-6: Warren tries a new coat to see if he can hide his wings under it, but they still show through. 
UO 3: Page 4 Panel 7: Warren loses his friends, and quits sports, and withdraws from the world, all to hide his wings. 

UX 54/2: Page3: Panel 6: We see a shot of the outside of a dorm. (No characters appear) The caption explains that Warren began a campaign to make himself the most hated kid at school, in order to secure his own private room. 

UX 54/2: Pages 4-5: Warren realizes that his dorm is on fire. He has no choice but to leave through the window, realizing that his wings allow him to fly for the first time, He grabs some props from the theatre storeroom, a rope, a wig, and a costume, and flies back to the dorm, attaches a rope to the window, rescuing many boys at the school. Once on the ground, he discards the gear, and puts on a normal pajama top, and talks to some of the boys he rescued. He kids them when they tell him that they were saved by an Angel. 

The next section of UO 3 contradicts the account given in UX 54/2, and I have decided to consider it a flawed retelling of these events. 
(UO 3: Page 5: At night, Warren flies around campus. 
UO 3: Page 6 Panels 1-2: During one such night flight (probably the same evening as Page 5, as there is a full moon present in both pages.) Warren sees that a dormitory is on fire. 
UO 3: Page 6 Panels 3-4: So as not be recognized, Warren grabs a wig, and a costume from the talent show. 

UO 3: Page 7 panels 1-3: Warren grabs a student, who has leaped out of a window, to avoid the 
fire. 
UO 3: Page 7 Panels 4-6: Warren sets the student down, then overhears him talking to the fire department, referring to Warren as some kind of heavenly Angel.) 



UX 55/2: Page 4 Panels 1-3: FLASHBACK: Warren rents an apartment in NYC, experiments with a gas gun, and practices flying. 

UX 55/2:Page 1: Angel is patrolling NYC. He spies something going on at a warehouse below him. 
UX 55/2: Page 2-Page 3 Panels 1-3: Warren uses his gas gun, and knocks out all but one gang member who flees. Warren chases him, and hits him, knocking him out. The mans name is Big Albert 
UX 55/2: Page 3 Panel3: The police find the Grady gang unconscious. Angel has left behind his halo symbol to try to gain some publicity as a crime fighter. 
UX 55/2: Page 3 Panels 4-5: Warren is at his apartment. The radio tells him that a partially deaf man claims he was attacked by a man with wings, but that he is a known pathological liar. Warren is annoyed that the incident will not boost his rep as a crime fighter. 

UX 55/2 Page 4 Panels 4-7: After hearing reports on the radio, Xavier manages to locate Angel. He tells Iceman and Cyclops, that whether that mutant weve located uses his powers for good or evil-may well depend on us. 

UX 55/2 Page 4 Panel 8- Page 5 Panels 1-5: Angel busts a gang of thieves robbing the atomic institute. He knocks them out with the gas gun, but he is also affected by the gas. He grabs the vial that the criminals were after. He decides that he will return it to the institute the next day, in order to gain publicity for his crime fighting career. 


Unfortunately, the next incident as shown in UO 3 completely contradicts the version shown in UX 55/2. As such, I am choosing to disregard it as a flawed retelling. 
Please feel free to compare the descriptions of the warehouse event as described in the original, and in UO 3, and decide for yourself. 

(UO 3: Page 8: Many months later (Again a full moon, is there any other kind in comics?) (Warren has dropped out of school, and gotten an apartment in New York City.) 
He flies up to bust a gang of warehouse thieves. Butch McGuiness, and Charley named) 

UO 3: Page 9: Warren uses his gas gun to knock two of them out. Two others run. Warren grabs one. 
UO 3: Page 10: Warren drops one thief on top of the other to knock them both out. 
UO 3: Page 11: Warren picks up the canister that the thieves had been trying to steal. There is some sort of gas escaping from it, that affects Warren. Under its influence, he decides 
To take it for himself.) 

UO 3: Page 12: In Westchester, at the mansion, Professor Xavier sends Iceman and Cyclops out on a mission, to contact Warren at his apartment. 

UX 55/2 Page 5 Panel 6: Warren enters his apartment through the window, Cyclops and Iceman are there, and ask Warren to join the X-Men. Warren says that he is a loner. 

UX 56/2: Page 1: Xavier telepathically orders Scott and Bobby to capture Angel. Angel attacks them. 
UX 56/2: Page 2: Cyclops tries to explain that they are fellow mutants but Angel wont listen. Iceman puts up a wall of ice to protect Scott from Angels attack. Scott uses his beam to shoot the skylight, dropping glass on Angel, and waking up his landlady. 
UX 56/2: Page 3: Xavier tells Bobby to grab the vial from Warrens belt, but Angel hits him. Xavier telepathically communicates with Warren, explaining that the vial he retrieved last night contains A new untried nuclear explosive and that it is active. 
UX 56/2: Page 4: Warren flies up into the sky with the vial to deactivate it. 
UX 56/2: Page 5 Panels 1-5: Once high enough, Warren twists the top off the vial, which does deactivate it. Then he falls towards the ground, blacking out. Xavier wakes him up, and Angel manages to safely land. 
UX 56/2 Page 5 Panel 6:Xavier shows up in person, to ask Warren to join the X-men, and he agrees. 

Once again, I am forced to decide that pages 13-17 are a flawed retelling, as they contradict UX 56/2 in every detail. (Bobby is drawn in Ice-form, for example, not in snow-form.) 

(UO 3: Page 13: Inside Warrens apartment, Cyclops and Angel confront him. Bobby sends a little ice towards Warren. 

UO 3: Page 14: Cyclops shoots his beam, stopping Bobbys ice . Warren tries to use his gas gun, but Cyke shoots it out of his hand. Warren hits him with a wing. Warren tries to grab the gas gun, but Iceman freezes it over. 

UO 3: Page 15: Xavier contacts Warren telepathically, and explains that the gas has affected him, and that the canister he has taken is a bomb. 

UO 3: Page 16: Still in communication with Xavier, Warren soars up into the air, and when it is safe, he hurls the canister. 

UO 3: Page 17: It explodes, catching Angel is the blast, but he is still able to land safely. Warren decides to join the group.) 

UX 51/2: 
UX 52/2: 
UX 53/2: Angel participates in part of the Beasts origin. I will probably need to add to this section , after I analyze Uncanny Origins 6. 
MCP 85/3: Warren appears briefly, trying to restrain the Beast. 
UX 1: Magneto attacks Cape Citadel, and Xavier and the X-Men stop him. 


(UO 3: Page 18-20, Page 21 panels 1-2: These pages are a montage of scenes showing how Angel was in the X-Men, then in X-Force, then transformed by Apocalypse into Archangel, No new information.) 

. 

X 88 

UO 3: Page 21 Panel 3: Angel and Psylocke stroll around outside. He is wearing his blue halo costume. (His wings are not visible) 
UO 3: Page 21 Panel 4- Page 22: Warren opens up a window at the mansion, and flies into the night. (Again a full moon.) He has his original wings back, and is wearing the blue halo costume. 

TB 27 

(I am placing these two scenes between X 88, and TB 27 for the following reasons: 
Psylocke has the Crimson Dawn mark, So this issue is after CD 1-4. CD 1-4 lead directly into UX 348-350. In UX 352, 353 there is a subplot where Angel and Psylocke teleport back to their loft, instead of sticking around to help the X-Men. Angel is given a lot of grief about this, and he flies off. When he does come back to the mansion, he gets involved in a plot with Marrow, then off to Alaska for the original X-Men reunion, then to England for Brian and Megans wedding, then to California for the Champions revival. Its only after X 88, that Warren has time to make misc. appearances, that involve him being at the mansion, without getting tangled up into other subplots. Psylockes appearing here between X 88 and UX 375 causes no additional problems. 
Any later, and they both get tangled up in the Astonishing X-men/The Twelve storyline, and after that change costumes) 


This gives us the following sequences: 


Angel Warren Worthington III 

*UO 3 
*XF 47-FB 
*L:SS (moved) 
*X29-FB 
*UX 54/2 (moved) 
XF 47-FB 
*UO 3 
*XF 47-FB 
*M/Fan 50-FB (moved) 
UX 54/2 
*UO 3 
UX 54/2 
*UX 55/2-FB 
UX 55/2 
UX 56/2 
UX 51/2 
UX 52/2 
UX 53/2 
MCP 85/3 
UX 1 

Also 
UX 338 
X '97 
*UO 8 
XFOR 67 
CD 1 
CD 2 
CD 3 
CD 4 

Psylocke 
UX 338 
X '96 
X 61 
*UO 8 
*CD 1 
CD 2 
CD 3 
CD 4 


Worthington, Kathryn 
*UO 3 
UX 54/2 
UX 14 
UX 17 
UX 18 
KZ 2/2 
X:HY 13 
X:HY 14 
X:HY 15 
X:HY 16-BTS 

Worthington, Warren Jr. 
X:HC 4-FB 
*UO 3 
*XF 47-FB 
L:SS (moved) 
*X29-FB 
UX 54/2 
UX 14 
UX 17 
UX 18 
KZ 2/2 


Professor Xavier 
UX 55/2 
*UO 3 
UX 55/2 
UX 56/2 

Iceman 
UX 55/2 
*UO 3 
UX 55/2 
UX 56/2 

Cyclops 
UX 55/2 
*UO 3 
UX 55/2 
UX 56/2

Last edited by Dhall on 12 May 2004 11:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 10 May 2004 01:40 am    Post subject: Did his Avenging Angel career take place........
By Enda80

Diagetically, when did Warren's solo career take place? Was it after the Fantastic Four had formed?

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Posted: 10 May 2004 02:42 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Psylocke already had the Crimson Dawn mark by the Crimson Dawn miniseries. She got it in Uncanny X-Men #330, when the Dawn was used to revive her.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 10 May 2004 12:08 pm    
By Dhall

Yes, you are correct about the mark. I should have added that she was well, up and walking around, in perfect health, Also these two pages require Warren at least to be at the mansion rather than at Warren's penthouse apartment. They also have to be after UX 338 because Warren has his original wings back, AND he has already adjusted to having them back. 

If there's an earlier period that we could put this in, let me know. I would be happy to take another look. 

Dave H

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Posted: 12 May 2004 11:12 pm    
By Dhall

Nathan, 
You are correct. For some reason I had forgotten just how much time there is between UX 338, and the Crimson Dawn series. 

This means we can move the two panels in question up considerably. 

I am going to edit my earlier post. 

Thanks! 

Dave H

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Thread 67

Posted: 23 Apr 2004 09:01 pm    Post subject: Thor Annual#11 analysis; help......
By Scathach80

Need help with this one. Still, I tried to do a Thor Annual#11 analysis 

Thor Annual#11 

Published: 1983 

Written By Alan Zelenetz, drawn by Bob Hall 
......................................................................................................... 
Framing Sequence: The Norns (Urd, Skuld, Verdanda) congregate to speak of the history of Thor. 

Appearances: Urd, Skuld, Verdanda 

Brief Syopsis: They just met together 

References: I will presume that this takes place in the present. 

Flashback sequence/: No flashback 
............................................................................................ 
Chapter 1 
Appearances: Odin, Gaea, Frigga 

Brief Syopsis: Odin mates with Gaea. Thor is born, and brought to Frigga. 

References: birth of Thor; references Repeating Ragnarok 

Flashback sequence: One panel flashback to repeating Ragnarok (ref Thor I#293-294) 

Comments: an elaboration of a one-panel flashback in Thor I#301 
................................................................................................ 
Chapter 2 

Appearances: Odin, Thor, Loki, Brokk, Eitri 

Brief Syopsis: Odin sends Thor to dwarfds Brokk and Eitri to have mjolnir created. 

References: Thor is said to be eight summers old. (Eight years old...not sure how Asgardian years compare to human years.....) 

Flashback sequence: The creation of Gungnir 

1. a few unnamed dwarves appear in flashback 
2. the dwarves create Odin's spear Gungnir 
3. creation of Gungnir; possibly during Hyborian Age (see end comments) 

Comments: The Offiical Handbook#15 stated that Gungnir predated the current incarnation of Odin. If one accepts that reincarnations of the Asgardians gods occurs (see end comments), then Gungnir would have been created in the Hyborian Age. (In Conan Annual#7, a character swears by "Wodun's spear!". This indicates strongly that an incarnation of Odin existed in the Hyborian Age who used Gungnir.) 

Loki and Thor mention Hela in this story. Update '89#2's corrections notes that these references are in error, since Hela is, after all, at least allegedly Loki's daughter. 
...................................... 
Chapter 3 

Appearances: Odin, Thor, Loki, Gullin 

Brief Syopsis: Thor first uses Mjolnir to defeat Gullin 

References: Thor is said to be sixteen 

Flashback sequence: Three flashback sequences 

1. Thor, unnamed giants, Agnar king of Eagles 
2. Thor saves Agnar king of eagles from giants 
3. before Thor gains Mjolnir 

1. Thor, "forces of evil" 
2. Thor battles "forces of evil" 
3. before Thor gains Mjolnir 


1. Thor, Hela, Sif 
2. Thor saves Sif from Hela 
3. before Thor gains Mjolnir 

Comment: If Hela is Loki's daughter, and Loki is the same age as Thor, Hela's appearance here may be a problem. 
............................................... 
Chapter 4 

Appearances: Sif, Thor, Loki, Brokk, Eitri 

Brief Syopsis: Loki shaves Sif's head, but Brokk and Eitri create black hair for her 

References: Thor is said to be younger than twenty, but is older than sixteen (he has Mjolnir). 

Flashback sequence: None 
................................................................................ 
Chapter 5 

Appearances: Thor, Odin, unnamed vikings and monks 

Brief Syopsis: Thor comes to Earth for first time, many years later sees monks killed by vikings, decides to stop seeking worship on Earth. 

References: Thor states that he set foot on Earth for the first time in this story; The Official Handbook Deluxe Edition for Thor states that he first set foot on Earth in the 9th century A.D. 

Flashback sequence: None 

Comment: Thor II#52 showed Thor setting foot on Earth at an age which seemed to be much younger than he is in this story. 
.................................................................. 
Chapter 6 

Appearances: Thor, Gondolff, Volstagg, Hogun, Fandral, Odin, Frigga, Absorbing Man (in generic vision), Captain America, Skrulls, Iron Man, Captain America, unnamed skrulls? (generic vision) 

Brief Syopsis: Thor gets into a bar fight with Gondolff. Later, Odin summons Thor. To punish him for being headstrong, Mjolnir is surrendered, Thor is turned into Donald Blake. Ten years later, Frigga and Odin watch as Donald Blake finds Mjolnir. Later, odin lifts the spell of forgetfullness and Thor recalls his full past life. 

References: Implicilty, bar fight with Gondolff takes place soon before Thor becomes Donald Blake. Thor turned into Donald Blake ten years before JIM#83. Frigga and Odin watch isochronally with JIM#83 

Flashback sequence: None 

Comment: Generic visions just montage shots. 

Frigga is shown in a youthful appearance, similar to a 30 year old woman. In her current appearances, she is shown as older, matronly, similar to a grandmother. She aged a lot in ten years. 
........................................................................................ 
Comments: Some useful info for this issue 

One annual, many complications. Nailing down when Thor was born is a very difficult task. 

As noted above, in the first chapter, Gaea makes a reference to repeating Ragnarok. This was the idea that the Asgardians go through periodic cycles of death and recreation, with the last one occuring circa 4 BCE (around the time of the birth of Jesus son of Mary). This idea was introduced in Thor I#293-294, told by a severed eye of Odin to Thor. It was supported by the original Official Handbook entries for Odin, Surtur, and Gungnir, and by comments Gaea made in Thor I#301. 

Later, in Thor I#355, Thor met with Buri, who made comments that seemed to indicate that repeating Ragnarok was not true. This was picked up on by the Deluxe Edition version of the Handbook, which treated the idea of repeating Ragnarok as at least possibly spurious. This was reflected in Vidar's Master Edition Handbook entry. 

As discussed in this thread I wrote, http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=28 
there, was however, also a story that strongly indicated that Thor and the Warriors Three (in their current incarnations) were around before 4 BC, since that story showed them observing Earth at the time of some sort of Deluge. Even if that was not the Great Cataclysm (18,000 BC), the 17,500 BC Cataclysm that created the Vilayet Sea, or the time of the end of the Hyborian Age (circa 9,500 to 8,000 BC), this would more properly fit before 4 BC. It would be kind of hard to fit a Deluge after 4 BC, I should think. 

Gaea's comments in Thor I#301 did not confirm that the last Ragnarok took place in 4 BC, so it may be possible to harmonize accounts by saying that the eye did not tell the whole truth, and that the last Ragnarok took place at some point before 4 BC. 

By the way, if repeating Ragnaroks are accepted as true, we can say quite confidently that they have been going on at least since the Hyborian Age (circa 10,000 BC), since the Conan stories make numerous references to: gods with names such as Wodun (Conan the Savage#3 and #10, Conan Annual#7; Wodun's spear), Wotan (Savage Tales I#4), Bragi (CTB I#17), Hodar (Savage Tales I#4), and Thor (Conan of the Isles) were invoked. 

Also, a nation called Nordheim existed in Conan's time. These humans, called the Nordheimr, had two tribes; the Aesir and the Vanir. The Aesir lives in one part of Nordheim called Aesgaard, the Vanir lived in another part called Vanaheim. Do these names sound familiar? As confirmed by Ulysses Bloodstone's entry in the Official Handbook, Vanaheim was located in what today is Scandinavia. 

The earliest post-Hyborian reference to the Asgardian gods occurs in a Bran Mak Morn story in Savage Sword of Conan#102/2. In that story, a Norseman invoked Thor and Wodun. Bran Mak Morn's adventures take place in Britain before the time of King Arthur, probably around 200 AD. 


GULLIN 
T@ 11 
A3 1 

The Norns do not have entries on the site. Suggested entries; 


URD 
*T 197 
*T 200 
*T 201 
*DEF 66 
*T@11 
*T 346 
*T 347 
*T 348 
*NMSE 1 
*T 374 


SKULD 
*T 197 
*T 200 
*T 201 
*DEF 66 
*T@11 
*T 346 
*T 347 
*T 348 
*NMSE 1 
*T 374 


VERDANDI 
*T 197 
*T 200 
*T 201 
*DEF 66 
*T@11 
*T 346 
*T 347 
*T 348 
*NMSE 1 
*T 374 

EITRI 

*T@ 11 
T 339 
NMSE 1 
UX@ 9 
T 376 
NM 79

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Apr 2004 03:59 pm    Post subject: Viking Era Thor Appearances
By Scathach80

<Viking era> Thunderstrike#20/2+21/2, Thor I#300(fb, Journey into Mystery An1, Thor Annual#5, Annual#7(fb2)), Thor Annual#7, Thor I#403, Marvel Comics Presents#63/4, Thor II#52(fb), Captain Marvel V#17, Citizen V and the V Battalion: Everlasting#4(fb), 
JiM#103/2, 108/2, 109/2, 110/2, 111/2, 116/2-125/2, Thor I#126/2-136/2, 137/2-145/2 
Thor Annual#18(fb), Bizarre Adventures#32(fb), Thor323, 
http://www.marvunapp.com/master/ 
a list of Viking Era Thor appearances. Some of them might have to be considered for this analysis.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 May 2004 11:48 pm    
By John Simons

Scathach80 wrote: 
>>>
Framing Sequence: The Norns (Urd, Skuld, Verdanda) congregate to speak of the history of Thor. 
<<<


Actually, since this framing sequence exists, wouldn't that make the rest of the chapters of this annuals FBs? And by extension, FBs within such as the forging of Gugnir would be FB-FBs? 

Quote: 
>>>
Brief Synopsis: Odin mates with Gaea. Thor is born, and brought to Frigga. 
<<<


Naturally, this would be the chronologically earliest appearence of Thor. 

For Odin, it would come before or after SS@ '98-FB, which I don't have. 

Quote: 
>>>
Brief Synopsis: Odin sends Thor to dwarfs Brokk and Eitri to have mjolnir created. 

References: Thor is said to be eight summers old. (Eight years old...not sure how Asgardian years compare to human years.....) 
<<<


I would place this after the Dark Gods war shown in T2 9- FB, if for no other reason than because Odin probably would've wielded Mjolnir in the war if it had existed at that time. 

Therefore, I'd place this FB between T2 9- FB and T2 44- FB 

Quote: 
>>>
Chapter 3 

Appearances: Odin, Thor, Loki, Gullin 

Brief Synopsis: Thor first uses Mjolnir to defeat Gullin 

References: Thor is said to be sixteen 
<<<


Where is this reference? For the life of me, I can't see it. JIM 102/2 describes Thor as 18 on the day he firsts wields Mjolinir. 

>>>
Quote: 
Flashback sequence: Three flashback sequences 

1. Thor, unnamed giants, Agnar king of Eagles 
2. Thor saves Agnar king of eagles from giants 
3. before Thor gains Mjolnir 
<<<


This story is told in full in JIM 100/2. This one-panel addition occurs between panels 3 and 4 of the final page of the story. Although the artist does not depict him, Loki is BTS riding on the eagle, as well. 

Quote: 
>>>
1. Thor, "forces of evil" 
2. Thor battles "forces of evil" 
3. before Thor gains Mjolnir 
<<<


This story is told in full in JIM 101/2. This particular panel could be placed between panels 1 and 2 of page 3 of this story. 

Quote: 
>>>
1. Thor, Hela, Sif 
2. Thor saves Sif from Hela 
3. before Thor gains Mjolnir 
<<<


This isnt a flashback, its the present of chapter 3, which picks up immediately after 102/2. 

Quote: 
>>>
Comment: If Hela is Loki's daughter, and Loki is the same age as Thor, Hela's appearance here may be a problem. 
<<<


Well, in the actual mythology, Hela is Lokis daughter, however in the comics, Im not sure anyone ever established this before Simonson. The earliest issue Im aware of where they speak of their relationship is T 375, but from then on (at least thru the end of Simonsons run), they both seem to be under the impression that they are father and daughter. 

How could this be when Hela was already in charge of Hel when Loki was a boy? Hard to say, but this is the Marvel Universe were talking about, and Loki is a powerful sorcerer. Just as Fry went back in time to become his own grandfather on the TV show Futurama, for all we know Loki traveled back into the past and fathered Hela before he was even born! Okay, that may be a stretch, but my point is somehow Loki and Hela are father and daughter, so there must be some explanation! 

Quote: 
>>>
Chapter 4 

Appearances: Sif, Thor, Loki, Brokk, Eitri 

Brief Synopsis: Loki shaves Sif's head, but Brokk and Eitri create black hair for her 

References: Thor is said to be younger than twenty, but is older than sixteen (he has Mjolnir). 
<<<


When I see the words not yet seen twenty summers, I sort of assume it means hes nineteen. Sif appears here directly from the previous chapter. Since Thor is also said to be not yet 20 in JIM 109/2, a good place for this FB might be between JIM 109/2 and JIM 110/2. 

Quote: 
>>>
Chapter 5 

Appearances: Thor, Odin, unnamed vikings and monks 

Brief Synopsis: Thor comes to Earth for first time, many years later sees monks killed by vikings, decides to stop seeking worship on Earth. 

References: Thor states that he set foot on Earth for the first time in this story; The Official Handbook Deluxe Edition for Thor states that he first set foot on Earth in the 9th century A.D. 
<<<


The only comics already in Thors chronology that have him interacting with vikings are T@ 5, T: G 1 and CM5 17- FB, so pages 29 and 30 must take place prior to them. However, none of the abovementioned comics are where they need to be in the current chronology. 

I already made my case for the placement of the main story of T@ 5 over in the Sif Correction thread. 

T: G 1 must be moved forward beyond JIM 102/2, as Thor already carries Mjolnir in this tale. He says that only recently have I won stewardship of my hammer Mjolnir 

As I already mentioned, JIM 109/2 takes place when Thor is still 19, and the Thor of CM5 17- FB looks considerably older than that, with a full beard. Since Thors interaction with the Vikings happened for years, I dont see how CM5 17- FB could take place before JIM 109/2 and still have Thor be only nineteen in the latter story. 

Quote: 
>>>
Comment: Thor II#52 showed Thor setting foot on Earth at an age which seemed to be much younger than he is in this story.  
<<<


I dont agree with this, simply because Bob Hall draws Thor as looking like a full adult even in Chapter 3, when hes only 18. I think it was just an artistic choice on Jurgens part to draw Thor a little more innocent-looking as it fits in better with his part in T2 52 - FB. 

Just to try it on for size, I shifted the Thor/viking stuff down to between JIM 109 and 110 on the chronology below. Offhand, I cant see any reason why there couldnt be a gap of several years between these two issues. Maybe someone sees something I dont? 

Quote: 
>>>
Chapter 6 

Appearances: Thor, Gondolff, Volstagg, Hogun, Fandral, Odin, Frigga, Absorbing Man (in generic vision), Captain America, Skrulls, Iron Man, Captain America, unnamed skrulls? (generic vision) 

Brief Synopsis: Thor gets into a bar fight with Gondolff. Later, Odin summons Thor. To punish him for being headstrong, Mjolnir is surrendered, Thor is turned into Donald Blake. Ten years later, Frigga and Odin watch as Donald Blake finds Mjolnir. Later, odin lifts the spell of forgetfullness and Thor recalls his full past life.  
<<<


Okay, when we get closer to Thors first published appearence, I cant really be of much help because I dont have all the relevant issues yet. I do have T 415 and T 479, which add more to the origin, but the latter book also introduces the fact that Don Blake was an actual person whose life Thor co-opted while the real Blake slept under Mount Wundagore?? Looking at the MCP I see that theres a listing for Blake but also a listing for a Blake construct!? Im missing some key issues in the 470s and 480s, so I really dont know the whole story here. 

Further, I dont have M/TALES 252/2 or JIM -1 and have no clue what happens in them, so I have no basis to help with this section of T@ 11. 

The most problematic bit of T@ 11 may be the last 3 pages, which seem to suggest that Thor did several years worth of superheroing on Earth before his memory that he was the true God of Thunder (as opposed to a normal human granted Thors power) was returned to him by Odin. However, Thor seems to be aware of his true identity and his relationship to Odin as early as JIM 86, a mere 3 issues after his premere and well before he first fought Absorbing Man (pg. 38 panel 5) or fought with the Avengers (pg. 38 panel 6) Not sure what to make of this! 

Quote: 
>>>
GULLIN 
T@ 11 
A3 1 
<<<



He also appears in JIM 103/2, which would make his chronology: 
GULLIN 
**T@ 11 
**JIM 103/2 
A3 1 
-------------------------------------------------------- 

While looking this stuff up, I came across what I consider a few problem areas in Thors current MCP listing. Heres a few suggested revisions and additions: 

1. T 402/2 and T 403/2 are listed in the chronologies of Sif and Loki, but not Thor himself! 

2. As I mentioned above, I suggest moving T: G 1 forward in Thors chronology, to a time when he is still young yet wields Mjolnir and interacts with Vikings. Also, I believe it is technically a FB, which the current entry does not note. Balder needs a listing for this story. 

3. Similarly, T 466- FB must be moved forward because, again, Thor already has his hammer. Since Thor is described as young and fairly unaware of the various regions of the Golden Realm, I would place this to just after he gains the hammer in JIM 102/2, and just before T 252/2 - T 253/ 2, in which he is still on the road, presumably on the same journey. The note on the 1st page of T 252/2 states that it occurs immediately after JIM 102/2, however since T 466- FB actually shows Odin standing by Thor as he is about to set off on this journey, I think the story of T 466- FB should come first. It must be added to Odins chronology, since it is currently missing. 

4. I think the current placement of T 252/2 and T 253/2 is okay, however I notice that there are 4 short FBs in T 252/2 which arent currently represented in Thors MCP entry. 

FB 1- From the adventure in JIM 100/2, a giant is threatening Thor, who is being defiant. It is the same situation as page 2, panel 4 of JIM 100/2, but with almost completely different dialogue. 
From JIM 100/2: 
It is the puny one-- from the land of Asgard! Let us slay him as a warning to others not to enter our domain! 
Hold your tongue, insolent one! You speak to Thor, son of Odin! I am here to return the Golden Apples to Iduna! 
From T 252/2: 
Puny godling... thinkest thou can creep unseen into Jotunheim and escape with thy worthless life?! 
Save thy foul breath, giant! Tis thine own life which is in danger-- for I am Thor, son of Odin-- and it is to the champions of Asgard thou shalt answer now for the theft of the Golden Apples! 
So although Thor repeats who his is twice, technically both scenes can count. In the first example, the giants have discovered him, in the second example they are attacking. For the sake of completness, the panel from T 252/2 could be added between pages 2 and 3 of JIM 100/2. 

FB 2- Thor opposes the Forces of Evil. This is all new dialogue which seems to fit in nicely immediately after the panel from T@ 11 which I already recommended earlier in this post. 

FB 3- This is just a scene of Odin counseling Thor as he tries to lift Mjolnir. It takes place between 101/2 and 102/ 2. 

FB 4- This final scene shows Thor approaching Helas castle and challenging the storm giant guards which he battles in JIM 102/2. It takes place between panels 2 and 3 of page 3 of JIM 102/2. 

5. T2 1- FB is too far forward. Thor and Loki are still young and scrawny, and Thor doesnt appear to have Mjolnir yet. I would place this just after T 403/2, since Sif also appears in the scene. 

6. Lokis appearence in T@ 8 is listed very early in his chronology, whereas Thors is listed way down between the Korvac saga and T 269 (not sure why there, since that would place it about 2 years prior to when it was actually published) A quick check of other characters such as Zeus and Athena shows no mention at all. Im beginning to suspect that Russ is not a big fan of Thor annuals, for some reason :smile:

7. Theres a reference to a T@ 1 in Lokis chronology. Is this even an existing comic? Because it is not a reference to JIM@ 1, which is quite rightfully listed after JIM 111/2 

8. Lokis and Odins appearence in T 401 (which despite its publication order actually takes place circa 1000 AD) is placed just before JIM 111/2, which seems right, yet this appearence is not mentioned in Thors chronology, while in others it is quite mistakenly listed between T 400 and T 402! 
------------------------------------------------------- 

Based on everything Ive discussed above, heres my suggested changes to the affected characters. Entries with one * indicate books which already appear in the chronologies, but which I have relocated. Books with ** are completely new entries. 


BALDER 
JIM 102/2 
JIM 106/2 
JIM 107/2 
**T:G 1- FB 
**T@ 5 (page 12, panel 5- end) 
*T 401 
JIM 111/2 
... 

FANDRAL 
**T@ 5 (page 12, panel 5- end; may come after TS 18/2- FB as I dont have that issue) 
**T 401 (same comment about TS 18/2- FB applies) 
TS 18/2-FB 
{JIM 119/2} 
... 

FRIGGA 
**T@ 11- FB 
T:G 1 
... 

GAEA 
**T@ 11- FB (birth of Thor, may come after T@ 10 as I dont have that issue) 
T@ 10-FB 
... 

HEIMDALL 
*T@ 5 (page 12, panels 1-4 only) 
JIM 104/2 
... 

HOGUN 
T@ 5 
**T 401 
{JIM 119/2} 
... 

KARNILLA 
{JIM 107/2} 
*T@ 5 
JIM 117 
... 

LOKI 
JIM 112/2 
**T2 9- FB 
**T2 11- FB (hammer forged) 
T2 44-FB 
T2 44-FB 
JIM 113/2 
T 402/2 
T 403/2 
*T2 1-FB 
JIM 100/2 
**TA 11- FB- FB- BTS (riding on eagle, not shown) 
**JIM 100/2 (last panel, watching Thor trying to lift hammer) 
JIM 101/2 
**T@ 11- FB (mopes as Thor receives Mjolnir) 
JIM 107/2 
DF 2.4 
DF 3.6 
(T@ 1 whats this?) 
(T@ 8 needs to be moved) 
**T@ 11- FB (Loki cuts off Sifs hair) 
*T:G 1-FB 
T@ 5 
T 401 
JIM 111/2 
... 

ODIN 
JIM 97/2 
JIM 111-FB 
JIM 97/2 
JIM 98/2 
JIM 99/2 
**T@ 11- FB (birth of Thor; may come after SS 98 as I dont have that issue) 
SS '98-FB 
T2 9-FB 
**T2 11- FB (hammer forged) 
JIM 104/2 
JIM 105/2 
JIM 112/2 
T2 44-FB 
T2 44-FB 
**T 402/2 
JIM 100/2 
JIM 101/2 
**T 252/ 2- FB (page 3, panel 1) 
**T@ 11- FB (awards mjolnir) 
**T 466-FB 
JIM 103/2-BTS 
JIM 106/2 
JIM 109/2 
DF 2.4 
DF 3.6 
DF 4.8 
**T@ 11- FB (pg. 30) 
**T2 52- FB 
*T@ 5 (page 12, panel 5- end) 
T 401 
JIM 110/2 
... 

SIF 
T 403/2 
T@ 5 (page 12, panels 1-4 only) 
*T2 1- FB 
{JIM 102/2} 
**T@ 11- FB (after rescue) 
**T@ 11- FB (Loki cuts off Sifs hair) 
T@ 14/3 
... 

THOR 
**T@ 11- FB (birth) 
T2 9-FB 
**T2 11- FB (hammer forged) 
T2 44-FB 
JIM 113/2 
**T 402/2 
**T 403/2 
**T@ 5 (page 12, panels 1-4 only) 
*T2 1- FB (Loki steals Thors goose) 
JIM 100/2 (page1 and 2) 
** T 252/2- FB (page 2, panel 3) 
**JIM 100/2 (page 3-end) 
**T@ 11- FB- FB (escapes with apples) 
**JIM 100/2 (last panel, trying to lift hammer) 
JIM 101/2 (pg. 1 thru pg. 3, panel 1) 
**T@ 11- FB- FB (shouts challenge at Forces of Evil) 
**T 252/ 2- FB (page 2, panel 4) 
**JIM 101/2 (pg. 3, panel 2 thru end) 
**T 252/ 2- FB (page 3 panel 1, Thor tries to lift hammer) 
JIM 102/2 (Pg1- pg 3, panel 2) 
**T 252/ 2- FB (page 3 panel 2 and 3) 
**T@ 11- FB (awarded mjolnir, battles Gullin) 
*T 466-FB 
T 252/2 
T 253/2 
JIM 103/2 
JIM 106/2 
JIM 108/2 
JIM 109/2 (not yet 20) 
**T@ 11- FB (Loki cuts off Sifs hair) 
**T@ 11- FB (pg. 29 and 30) 
**T2 52- FB 
*T:G 1- FB 
*T@ 5 (page 12, panel 5- end) 
**T 401 
*CM5 17- FB 
**T@ 11- FB (pg. 31-34) 
JIM 110/2 
... 

TYR 
JIM 106/2 
**T@ 5 (page 12, panel 5- end) 
{JIM 85} 
... 

VOLSTAGG 
**T@ 5 (page 12, panel 5- end) 
**T 401 
JIM 119/2 
...

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 11:31 pm    
By Enda80

http://milehighcomics.com/firstlook/marvel/thor/page01.html 

Oeming seems to think that Buri was the name of a dwarf. 
Also, that the forging of Mjolnir caused the destruciton of the dinosaurs! 
http://milehighcomics.com/firstlook/marvel/thor/page02.html 

Two previous explanations for extinction of dinosaurs 
*Atum's battle with Set per Iron Man Annual#10 
*a meteor per Conan the Barbarian I#163

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 11:36 pm    
By Enda80

GAEA 
T@ 10-FB 
**T@ 11- FB 

T@10 is Gaea's origin.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 12:26 am    
By John Simons

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Oeming seems to think that Buri was the name of a dwarf. 
<<<



I don't see why that would be out of the question. If indeed Odin did create the race of dwarves, maybe he named one Buri to honor his father. 

Much more frustrating to me is the revealtion that the hammer Odin wields against Laufey in JIM 112/2 is indeed Mjolnir. Now, it's true that the hammer looks just like Mjolnir, but since it is never specifically named, I was hoping that the origin of Mjolnir shown in T@ 11 wouldn't be invalidated. 

So much for that. If Odin already had Mjolnir at the time he adopted Loki, then obviously the origin of the hammer shown in chapter 2 of T@ 11 (in which Thor and Loki are involved in its commission) is quite impossible. Dagnabbit.

			*	*	*

Thread 68

Posted: 13 May 2004 04:19 pm    Post subject: Terror Inc. #1-5
By michel

Terror Inc. #1 (already in the MCP) 

Characters : Roger Barbatos, Terror, Lola, Mikal Drakonmegas, Jessie Drakonmegas, Maximillian, Alexis Primo, Rekrab 

Flashback : Barbatos makes a contract with Beelzeboul : he promises "a steady diet of death, destruction, reaped from the munitions I sow in your name. In return, a small boon... safety from those who oppose the dark work I do for you". 
Characters : Roger Barbatos, Beelzeboul (alias for Satan) 

Terror Inc. #2 (already in the MCP) 

Characters : Terror, Roger Barbatos, Lola, Mikal Drakonmegas, Jessie Drakonmegas, Maximillian 

In a nightmare, Mikal sees a man with a demonical face holding a dagger near the corpse of a woman. In his eyes, another woman, Victoria Wingate (her maiden name is revealed here), mother of Daimon and Satana. She hears Satan saying "Cut the cat deep, Satana, and it won't struggle... the same goes for everything else". This is a nightmare, not true flashbacks, but it seems to say that Mikal is younger than Daimon and Satana 

Terror Inc. #3 : 07/92, by D.G. Chichester / Jorge Zaffino 

Continues straight from #2. 

p1 : under Barbatos orders, Lola hires some guys to get Terror at Alcatraz. 

p2-p13 : At the same moment, daytime. Drakonmegas has transformed into Hellfire. To calm him, Terror uses Mikal's mother's hand (preserved through embalming techniques and a tight seal casket) and caress him, making him relive when his pregnant mother caressed her belly. 

Flashback 1 : Cassandra Drakonmegas, pregnant, caress her belly 
Character : Cassandra Drakonmegas 

Terror has given back to Mikal his demoniac part to be able to reach his father, Satan, so he can make him break his contract with Barbatos and then kill Barbatos. Terror and Hellfire escape the police, then Barbatos' men. 

p14-p15 : later, presumably the same day. Terror prepares for his next move in Alexis Primo's yacht. Mikal tries to phone his wife, and learns through the answering machine that she definitely leaves him. 

p16-p22 : presumably the night after, at a lighthouse. Using Cassandra's eye and ears, Terror tells Mikal about his parents. 

Flashback 2 : Cassandra has been hired to fix up an old lighthouse. She's seduced by a young man, no identity given. Later, while they restore the lighthouse together, Cassandra cuts herself, her blood is shed on the lamp casing and etches a pentagram in the metal. Months later, Cassandra is pregnant but is worried, because she suffered an abortion in her youth and she knows she can't have children anymore. 
Characters : Cassandra Drakonmegas, Satan 

Terror is interrupted : a portal has opened and Satan himself is watching them. 

I think the two flashback can be merged. 
Characters : Lola, Roger Barbatos, Terror, Hellfire, Alexis Primo, Jessie Drakonmegas-BTS, Satan. 

Terror Inc. #4 (already in the MCP) 

Characters : Roger Barbatos, Lola, Terror, Hellfire, demons (including Se'irim, Vulkanus, Neith, Ghasta), Dr Strange, Satan 

Terror Inc. #5 : 10/92, by D.G. Chichester / Jorge Zaffino 

Continues straight from #4. 

p1-p20 : in Satan's realm. Terror takes back Cassandra Drakonmegas' body parts from Vulkanus, so he can tell the end of the story of Hellfire's parents. 

Flashback : Cassandra discovers objects that suggest the diabolical side of her boyfriend. She writes a letter to a man, Rekrab, that sends her back a dagger. By surprise, she uses it against Satan who reveals himself but is pulled back into his realm, though he can hurt Cassandra badly. She dies but doctors can save her child. 
Characters : Satan, Cassandra Drakonmegas, Rekrab-BTS, Mikal Drakonmegas 

When Terror and Hellfire confront Satan, Terror removes Mikal's darksoul. In exchange for delivering to Satan his helpless son, Terror obtains the breaking of Barbatos' contract. Then he goes away, but comes back to free Mikal : he makes him Hellfire again (but breaks the serpent's fangs : Hellfire will keep his darksoul). Then Hellfire uses once again the dagger against Satan : that opens a portal in which Terror and he can escape. Near the lighthouse, Doctor Strange is waiting for them and accuses Terror to weaken the occult lines between worlds. 

p21-p24 : at Barbatos' house. He learns now Terror has escaped his men, so it can't be very long after #4, presumably the same night. Terror can finally kill Barbatos. 

Characters : Terror, Hellfire, demons (Vulkanus, Imps), Satan, Doctor Strange, Roger Barbatos, Lola 

TERROR II 
TER 1 
TER 2 
**TER 3 
TER 4 
**TER 5 
W2 58 

HELLFIRE/MIKAL DRAKONMEGAS (and not DRAGONMEGAS) 
**TER 5-FB 
TER 1 
TER 2 
TER 3 
TER 4 
**TER 5 

PRIMO, ALEXIS 
TER 1 
**TER 3 
TER 6 

**REKRAB 
**TER 5-FB-BTS 
**TER 1 

**BARBATOS, ROGER 
**TER 1-FB 
**TER 1 
**TER 2 
**TER 3 
**TER 4 
**TER 5 

**LOLA 
**TER 1 
**TER 2 
**TER 3 
**TER 4 
**TER 5 

DRAKONMEGAS, JESSIE (and not DRAGONMEGAS) 
TER 1 
TER 2 
**TER 3-BTS 

**MAXIMILLIAN/"MAX" 
**TER 1 
**TER 2 

SATAN/"MARDUK KURIOS"/"BEELZEBOUL" 
H:PL 2-FB 
**TER 3-FB 
**TER 5-FB 
M/SPT 5 
... 
DEF 111 
**TER 1-FB (instead of TER 1) 
**TER 3 
TER 4 
**TER 5 
H:PL 3-FB 

**DRAKONMEGAS, CASSANDRA 
**TER 3-FB 
**TER 5-FB 
I don't know if Cassandra's hand, eye and ears, taken from her embalmed body, count for an appearance... If yes must be added : 
**TER 3 
**TER 4 
**TER 5 

DR. STRANGE II/STEPHEN STRANGE 
M/SH3 12 
TER 4 
**TER 5 
DRSTR3 37 

**SE'IRIM 
**TER 4 

**VULKANUS 
**TER 4 
**TER 5 

**NEITH 
**TER 4 

**GHASTA 
**TER 4 

**IMPS 
**TER 5

			*	*	*

Thread 69

Posted: 12 May 2004 09:14 pm    Post subject: Beast's Origin (incorporating Uncanny Origins 6)
By Dhall

Beasts origin (incorporating Uncanny Origins 6) 
This one took me a lot longer than I thought it would. Still it fits together rather well. 
Let me know if I missed anything. 

UO6 = Uncanny Origins 6 


(UO 6 Page 1 Splash Page, no new information) 

UO 6 Page 6 Panel 1-FB: Norton and Edna McCoys wedding. (new scene) 

UX 49/2-FB: Page 2 Panel1: Norton and Ednas wedding day 
UX 49/2-FB: Page 2 Panel 2: They drive to their new home in the city. (Not the farmhouse.) 
(UO 6 Page 6 Panel 2-FB: The Newlyweds driving home (to their old home in the city, not the farmhouse.)(Same as above) 


UX 49/2-FB: Page 2 panel 3: Edna is concerned about the safety at the nuclear plant that Norton works at (and rightfully so, as things turn out.) 
UX 49/2-FB: Page 2 Panel 5: Norton carries Edna over the threshold into their new home. 
(UO 6 Page 6 Panel 3-FB: Edna doesnt like Nortons job at the nuclear plant. Norton carries his new bride over the threshold. Same as above.) 

UX 49/2-FB: Page 2 Panels 6-7: Norton informs Mr. Marlin about the emergency. 

(UO 6 Page 6 Panel 4-FB: A Few Months later Norton tells his supervisor Mr. Marlin that there is trouble in sector-B, in the breeder reactor. 
UO 6 Page 6 Panel 5-FB: Norton tells Mr. Marlin that the control system has shorted out, and the carbon rods cannot be lowered.) (Same as above) 


UX 49/2-FB: Page 3 Panels 1-2: Mr. Marlin and his workers cannot get the short circuit under control, they wonder who they can get to go and manually lower the rods, but as it turns out there is no need. 

UO 6 Page 7 Panel 1-3-FB: Mr. Marlin orders his men to evacuate the sector. The men hear Nortons voice on the intercom. He volunteers himself. 

UO 6 Page 7 Panel 4-FB: Mr. Marlin tells Norton that his suit is not fully radiation proof, while Norton is suiting up. (This is a new scene of Norton holding the suits helmet before he puts it on, but the dialogue is lifted from the scene below.) 

UX 49/2-FB: Page 3 panels 3: Norton suits up. 

UX 49/2-FB Page 3 panel 4:Norton begins working on the rods. Exterior shot. 

(UO 6 Page 7 Panel 5-FB: Exterior shot, of Norton working.) (This is the same as the above scene) 


UX 49/2: Page 1: Norton McCoy is in the booth, trying to lower a rod into the nuclear pile before the reactor goes critical. 

UX 49/2: Page 3 Panel 5: Norton turns the wheel to lower the rods. The radiation is starting to get to him. 
UX 49/2: Page 4 Panels 1-3: He manages to lower the rods, and save the day, but Norton passes out, and is carried out of the booth by his co-workers. 


(UO 6 Page 8 Panels 1-3-FB: Norton manages to lower the control rods, by using the device. Then some of the other workers get him out of it.) (Same as above.) 


XU 10-FB:Page 35 Panel 3: Norton is the hospital, Edna holds his hand. 

UX 49/2: Page 4 Panel 4: In the hospital, Edna tells Norton that he must choose between his job and his wife. 

(UO 6 Page 9 Panel 1-FB: Edna makes Norton choose her or his job.) 


UX 49/2 Page 5 Panels 1-2: So they found a new town and a new job and Edna and Norton find out that they are going to have a baby. The doctor is concerned that the child might not be normal due to Nortons radiation exposure, but Norton is not worried. 

(UO 6 Page 9 Panels 2-3-FB: Edna and Norton find out theyre going to have a baby.) 


UX 49/2 Page 5 Panel 3: Hank is born, the doctor notices his large hands and feet. 

UO 6 Page 2: Its a boy! Norton and Edna McCoy hold Baby Hank for the first time. 
UO 6 Page 3 Panels 1-3: The nurse remarks about Hanks large feet and hands. 

XU 10-FB: Page 35 Panel 4: Edna and Norton watch Hank in his crib. 

UX 49/2 Page 5 Panel 4-6: at the McCoy home, Uncle Bob plays with Hank, but Hank pops him in the chin, while his parents watch. 

(UO 6 Page 3 Panel 4: At the McCoy home, Hanks parents watch, as Uncle Bob plays with Hank 
UO 6 Page 4 panels 1-3: Hank smacks Uncle Bob with his bottle. A retelling of the above scene.) 



(UX 50/2 Page 1 Panel 1: FB to Norton turning the reactors wheel, nothing new.) 

PXX 17-Fb: Page 8: Panel 4: Edna holds baby Hank, while she and Norton comment on his grip, and his dexterity. (This is a new scene.) 

UX 50/2 Page 1 Panel 2: young Hank lifts up his crib, to try to find a ball. 
UX 50/2 Page 1 Panel 3: Hanks parents are amazed, when they find him climbing a wall to get a balloon. 

(PXX 17-FB Page 8: Panel 5: Put in here just for completeness.) This panel is not cannon, as it shows Hank and Norton moving into a new house, after the nuclear plant is shut down. It cant be cannon, as Norton quit his job at Ednas insistence, and the family moved before Hank was born, not after he was old enough to walk. We could assume a third house and another move, but thats not what the caption describes.) 

UX 50/2 Page 2 Panels 1-2: Uncle Bob shakes Hanks hand, but his grip is too much, and hurts Bob. Edna tells him that he should be more careful. 

(UO 6 Page 4 Panels 4-5: The Years passed Quickly Uncle Bob shakes Hanks hand, but Hanks powerful grip hurts.) (This is a retelling of the above scene.) 

UO 6 Page 4 Panel 6: Edna scolds Hank, who runs off upset. (This is new) 

UO 6 Page 5: He runs off to his dad, who is working out in the field. Norton and Hank talk about how he is different. 
UO 6 Page 6: Norton narrates his life story to Hank, who is hearing it for the first time. 
UO 6 Page 7 Middle Panel: Norton and Hanks storytelling session continues. 
UO 6 Page 8 Panel 4: Hank tells Norton that hes a hero. 
UO 6 Page 9 Panels 4-6: Norton tells Hank that hes better than normal. 


XU 10-FB: Edna and Norton are in the principals office. The three of them go outside to find Willy the custodian, watching Hank take a bus engine apart to see how it works. 

(UO 6 Page 10: Edna and Norton are called into school Hank is taking apart the school bus to figure out how it works, while Willy the mechanic looks on.) 
(UO 6 Page 11 Panels 1-2: Hank leaps off the bus) 

UO 6 Page 11 Panels 3-4: Hank is both praised and scolded by the principal, in front of Willy and Hanks parents. (New scene) 

XU 10-FB: Page 35 Panel 5: Norton wants to play baseball, but Hank is too absorbed in a book. 

XU 10-FB: Page 35: Panel 6: Edna comes home to find Hank swinging from the ceiling light by his feet. 
UO 6 Page 12 Panel 1: Hank is on a date with a blonde girl named Mindy. They walk down the street together. They are on their way back from seeing a movie together. 


UX 15-FB: Page 13 Panels 3-6: Bullies pick on Hank. One of them punches him, but Hank easily dodges the blow. The boy dares Hank to stand still, which he does. The boy hits Hank, who falls over into the street, in the path of an oncoming car. The driver cannot stop in time. Hank uses his powers to leap backwards over the car. 

(UO 6 Page 12: As the years evolve Hank is on a date with a blonde girl named Mindy. Then hes attacked by some kids. Hank gets pushed into the street, where he has to leap out of the way of an oncoming truck. The coach sees this, and vows that Hank will be on the team.) (Unfortunately this does not work with the above scene.. Note to writers: A truck is not the same as a car. Also the coach had no idea about Hanks powers in the UX 50/2 storyline. It would be absurd to consider this as being a different incident, so I will consider it a bad retelling of the first fb in UX 15. We can salvage the first panel with Hank and Mindy on a date, as described above. Note: This is not the same date with Mindy as in XU 10-FB, as here he took her to the movies, in that FB they went to an amusement park) 

(PXX 17-FB Page 9: This is basically the same scene as the UX 15-FB, except that the characters are wearing different clothes. However, the car is correct (even the color is red.) So, Here Professor X and the X-Men gets it right, where Uncanny Origins gets it wrong.) 

PXX 17-FB: Page 10: Panels 2-3: We see the rest of Hanks flip, and his landing. (This is new material.) 

XU 10-FB: Pages 17-18: Hank and Mindy are on a group date, with some friends. He gets them thrown out of the amusement park, after he takes apart some of the animatronics to see how they work. 


UX 50/2 Page 2 Panels 3-5, Page 3 Panels 1-2: Hank is walking past the football field with an unnamed blonde woman. (This is presumably Mindy from XU 10 and UO 6.) The coach tells the team that any freshman could kick better than they can. He picks on Hank to prove his point. Hank kicks the ball, and it explodes. The coach goes long, and has Hank toss him a ball, The coach catches it, but it knocks him down. 

(UO 6 Page 13 panels 1-2: The coach makes Hank try out for the football team. Hank easily destroys a football when he kicks it. Mindy is present for this scene. This is pretty much the same as the first part of the above scene.) 

M/CP 86/3-FB: Page 4 Panel 6 through Page 5: Hank is already on the football team. Hanks friend Jennifer Nyles persuades the coach to let Hank try out as quarterback. He easily evades the other players, and makes a touchdown. The coach passes out. 

PXX 17-FB Page 13: Panel 3: We finally see Hank take a class! (For someone who is supposed to be a genius, this is the first time weve ever seen him in school.) Hank is the head of the class. He is teaching his math class while the professor watches. 

XU 10-FB: Page 35 Panel 7: Hank plays football. 

PXX 17-FB Page 13: Panel 4: Hank plays football. Due to Hanks agility, the other players seem to be like statues to him. 

UX 15-FB: Page 16: Panel 2: Hank outmaneuvers the other players. 

UX 15-FB: Page 16: Panel 3: Then he leaps up on the goalpost, upside down by his feet. Someone calls him a Beast, and the name sticks. 

PXX 17-FB Page 14: Panel 1: Hank is now on top of the goalpost, standing up on it. 

M/CP 86/3-FB: Page 1-Page 2 Panels 1-6: Hank is out moping on the night of the Junior Prom. Unexpectedly, Jennifer Nyles shows up and asks him to go to the prom with her. 

M/CP 86/3-FB: Page 3 Panels 3-4: After putting on a tuxedo, that Jennifer rented for him, Hanks parents take pictures of Hank and Jennifer. 

M/CP 86/3-FB: Page 3 Panels 5-6: At the prom, a jerk named Evan starts making disparaging remarks about Hank, until Jennifer slugs him. 

M/CP 86/3-FB: Page 6 Panels 3-5: The Night of the big game, Jennifer calls Hank from London, where she is studying genetics. Then he goes out to play football, completely unaware that the events of the next few hours would completely change his life. 


UX 50/2 Page 3 Panels 3-6: after Hank has lead the team to six consecutive victories, he is playing a football game at the stadium. Criminals try to hold up the stadium for the receipts. They use gas to knock out the teller. When the cops show up, they decide to duck into the stadium. 
UX 50/2 Page 4: Due to the crowd, the police cannot fire. So Hank throws helmets at them, knocking down a couple of crooks. 
UX 50/2 Page 5 panels 1-4: One of the criminals has a live grenade. Hank climbs up a goalpost, then leaps down, tackling the man, knocking him out. 
UX 50/2 Page 5: Panel 5: In a secret lair, The Conquistador and his lackey watch the action on TV. He thinks that Hank could be just the person to help him in his scheme. 

(UO 6 Page 13 panels 3-4, Page 15: during a game, some hooded men attack the stadium. Hank throws things at them to knock some of them out. The Conquistador observes.) (This is just a simplified version of the above scene.) 

PXX 17: Page 14: Panel 2: Professor Xavier hears a news report that the mysterious Beast has fled the field, before reporters could question him as to the exact nature of his alleged powers. 

UX 15-FB: Page 16: Panel 4: Xavier reads up on Hank in the Alumni news. 

UX 51/2: Pages 1-2: At yet another football game, Hank is the star quarterback, is carried off the field by his teammates, and climbs up the scoreboard! Meanwhile, the Conquistador, and his lackey Chico watch Hank on some type of viewing device. Then El Conquistador makes a speech to his helmeted troops. He plans to capture Hank. 

UO 6 Page 14: Panel 1: Hank walks home from the game. 

UX 51/2: Page 3: Walking past a construction site, Hank is ambushed by El Conquistadors men. One of them drives a truck filled with gravel straight at Hank, who jumps up, and then over a large pit. El Conquistador orders his men to execute Operation Snare. 

UX 51/2: Page 4: Operation Snare commences. It involves two goons tossing a net over Hank. Hank jumps, thus foiling Operation Snare. (Ah, for the good old days of comics. <Sarcasm>) The goons grab Hank by the feet, but he grabs their feet and knocks them over. Then El Conquistador shoots Hank with electricity from a glowing trident, knocking him out. 

(UO 6 Page 14 panels 2-4: the Conquistadors men throw a net over Hank, he avoids this, but then the Conquistador stuns him, capturing him.) (This is a simplified version of the above scene.) 



UX 51/2 Page 5:Panels 1-4: Back at Hanks house, Iceman checks out the scene. He finds the table freshly set, and signs of a struggle. It doesnt take Bobby long to get back to the mansion and report to Xavier, Angel, and Cyclops that the suspected mutant is gone, and so are his folks. Xavier decides that now is the time for them to get involved. 

(UO 6 Page 14 Panel 5: Iceman tells Cyclops and Xavier that the suspected mutant and his parents have disappeared.) (Simplified version of above scene) 


UX 51/2 page 5: panel 5: El Conquistador and his men have Hank tied up. He shows Hank on a view screen, that he also has captured Edna and Norton, and has them tied up elsewhere. He threatens to kill them if Hank wont cooperate. 

(UO 6 Page 14 Panel 6: The Conquistador reveals to Hank that he has captured his parents, and that Hank must do as he says.) (Same as above) 


UX 52/2: Page 1: Hank is loose, and has managed to overcome the goons, by El Conquistador shocks him again with the trident, and takes Hank to another location. There, he helpfully explains his master plan to Hank. He want Hank to grab an experimental miniaturized power plant from a government lab. Hank refuses, then El Conquistador turns on the monitor, and reminds Hank that he still has Edna and Norton hostage. 

UX 52/2 Page 2: Back at the mansion, Xavier attempts to locate Hank with his mental powers, then he unveils Cerebro. He finds Hanks location, and orders the X-Men to prepare for immediate action. (Though they do not show up until next issue!) 

UX 52/2 Page 3: Hank breaks into the government lab, and steals the power plant. He escapes from the lab, and jumps a fence. Then he takes the plant back to El Conquistador, who refuses to release Hanks parents, wanting to keep Hank working for him. 

(UO 6 Page 1 Panels 1-4: Hank breaks into the lab, and grabs the power plant., then he brings it back to the villain. Same as above, but simplified.) 


UX 53/2: Page 1- Page 3 Panels 1-4: El Conquistador installs the power plant into his device. The device, is a giant power transmitter, which threatens every world capital with destruction. Hank tries to sneak past the villain and his men, but is spotted. El Conquistador attacks Hank with his electric trident and shield. Hank dodges, but then the door busts inward. 

UX 53/2 Page 3 Panel 4: Angel, Cyclops and Iceman bust in. 

UX 53/2 Page 4: The three X-Men, and Hank take on the henchmen. Iceman manages to imprison them in a block of ice. Then a siren goes off from the device. 

UX 53/2 Page 5: Panels 1-3: El Conquistador tries to activate his device. Cyclops goes to stop him, but Xaviers telepathic command stops him. Xavier tells them to evacuate the building. As they do, the panel explodes, killing El Conquistador. 


(UO Page 15 Panel 5: Cyclops, Angel, and Iceman appear to stop them. 
UO 6 Page 16 Panel 1: Xavier somehow uses his powers to alter some circuits, somehow causing an explosion, and stopping the conquistador.) (A simplified version of the above events.) 

UX 53/2 Page 5: Panel3: The building explodes, but not before Hank manages to free his parents. Xavier has a car waiting for everyone. 


UX 15-FB: Page 16 Panels 5-6: At dinner at the McCoys, Xavier explains to Enda and Norton (while Hank climbs on the table.) that Hank is not a freak and that he wants to take and train Hank, so that Hank can be a benefactor to the human race. 

(PXX 17-FB: Page 15: The dinner scene. Pretty much the same.) 
UO 6 Page 16 Panel 2-3: At the McCoys, Xavier explains how he destroyed the machine, for Hanks benefit. Edna and Norton ask Hank what his decision regarding going to Xaviers is. 

UX 53/2: At the McCoy home, Beats joins the X-Men. Cyclops explains that Xavier has used his powers to make the town forget about Hanks powers. 

(UO 6 Page 16 Panel 3: Xavier, Angel, and Cyclops recruit Hank with his parents permission. ) (no new information.) 


M/CP 85/3-FB: Pages 1-3: The Beast is upset that Xavier erased Jennifer Nyles memory of him. Angel, Cyclops, and Iceman have to restrain him. The Professor explains that he had to do it, because she knew too much about Hank. 

M/CP 88/3-FB: Pages 1-3: Hanks first session in the Danger Room. Hank is still upset. 
Xavier explains (again) that his actions were necessary. 

UX 1: Magneto attacks Cape Citadel, and the X-Men go to defeat him. 


(UO 6 Page 16 Panels 4-5: Montage of X-Mens early appearances. (Nothing new.) 


UX 2-UX 66, and X:HY 1-22 (and no theres not going to be a recap of these issues.) 

AA2 11-FB: Page 6 Panels 2-3: The Beast says goodbye to Xavier, Cyclops, Iceman, Angel, and Marvel Girl. Jean gives him a farewell kiss. 

(UO 6 Page 17 Panels 1-2: Hank leaves the X-Men. Xavier, Cyclops, Iceman, Angel, and Marvel Girl say goodbye to him.) (Same as above.) 

AA2 11-FB: Page 7: Beast packs, the X-Men wave goodbye to Hank as he drives off. 

UO 6 Page 17 Panels 3-4: Hank drives to start his job at the Brand Corporation. 

AA2 11-FB: Page 8 through Page 12 Panels 1-4: Hank starts his new job at Brand Corporation. He meets his new boss, Mr. Grant, his new colleague, Professor Maddicks, and a new girlfriend, Linda Donaldson. Over the next few weeks Hank and Linda start a relationship. Beast bounces around. Hank starts his study of genetic mutation, while Professor Maddicks spies on him. 


UO 6 Page 17 Panel 5: Hank mixes up his serum. 

AA2 11-FB: Page 12 Panels 5-7: Hank isolates The chemical cause of mutation 

AA2 11-FB: Page 13:Panels 1-4: Hank finds out that Professor Maddicks is a spy (for the Secret Empire.) when he overhears him contacting Agent Nine on the phone. 

(UO 6 Page 18: Hank discovers that Maddicks is an enemy spy, drinks the serum, and is changed into the gray furry Beast.) (This is a simplified version of the above scene.) 


AA2 11-fb: page 13: Panels 5-6: Hank agonizes over what to do. 

AA2 11-FB: Page 14: Hank drinks his own serum, and changes into the gray and furry Beast. Then he leaps through a window. 

(XU 10-FB: Page 26: Hank drinks his serum and turns gray. Nothing new here.) 

AA2 11-FB: Page 15 Panels 1-3: He lands, and spies a guard. 

AA2 11:Pages 1-7, Page 8 Panel 1: Hank lands on the guard, knocking him out. Then he goes inside another lab, a guard (who is an enemy agent) attacks him with a gun, and shoots Hank, but Hank knocks him out, then runs from some other guards. The other guards shoot the spy, and kill him. Hank runs back to his own lab, but he has misjudged the time. The hour has passed, and he is stuck in his furry form. 

(UO 6 Page 19 Panels 1-2: He is shot at, and when he gets back to his lab, he realizes that it is too late to change back, and he is stuck this way. ) (A very simplified version of the scene above.) 


AA2 11 Pages 15 Panels 4-7: hank is upset, and beats up some lab equipment. 

AA2 11 Page 16: Then he goes after Maddicks. Hank breaks down the door, knocking out two guards. The guards already know the Professor is a spy, as the other spy talked before his death. 
AA2 11 Page 17-18: Hank battles guards, then they shoot him. Beast goes after Maddicks, then decides not to kill him. 

(UO 6 Page 19 Panels 3-4: Hank fights evil doers at Brand) (Nothing new, simplified version of above.) 

AA2 11 Page 19: Hank jumps through a window to escape. Agent Nine enters the room, she is the Beasts new girlfriend, Linda Donaldson. She shoots Professor Maddicks. 

AA2 12: Pages 1-4: Xavier and Jean attempt to contact Hank, but he doesnt want to make contact. 

AA2 12: Pages 5-6: Hank makes a harness, and rubber masks of his hands and face, so he can show up at work the next day. 

(UO 6 Page 19 Panel 5: Hank makes a rubber mask and gloves to hide who he has become.) (Simplified version of scene above.) 

AA2 12 Page 7-21: Beast Vs. Iron Man 

AA2 13: Beast Vs. The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants 

AA2 14: Beast talks to Iron Man, then to Linda. 

MTU 4: Hank briefly appears, talking to Xavier by telepathy. 
AA2 14: Beast Vs. Quasimodo. 

UO 6 Page 19 Panel 6- Page 20 Panel 1: Hank accepts his new (gray) appearance. 

AA2 15:Pages 1-4: Beast passes out on Patsys couch. Beasts fur turns blue. 

A 144-FB: Patsy Walker nurses Hank back to health, in exchange for a promise that Hank will help her to become a super heroine. 

UO 6 Page 20 Panel 2: Hank looks in the mirror, and admires his new blue fur. 

AA2 15: Pages 5-20: Hank and Angel fight the Griffin. 
A 140-FB: Hank is fired from Brand for taking so many leaves of absence. 
AA2 16: Beast is blue, goes on road trip with Vera and fight Juggernaut 
H2 161: Mimic 

(UO 6 Page 20 Panel 3-Page 21: A montage of Super Hero groups that Hank later joins. Nothing new.) 
(UO 6 Page 21: Next Issue: Venom!) 

Wow that was long! 

Okay here is the chronology: 
(I did not put stars for the new stuff in Beasts listing, as I am revising it extensively.) 
Beast Henry Hank McCoy 
UX 49/2 
UO 6 
XU 10-FB 
UX 49/2 
PXX 17-FB 
UX 50/2 
UO 6 
XU 10-FB 
UO 6 
XU 10-FB 
UO 6 
UX 15-FB 
PXX 17-FB 
XU 10-FB 
UX 50/2 
M/CP 86/3-FB 
PXX 17-FB 
XU 10-FB 
PXX 17-FB 
UX 15-FB 
PXX 17-FB 
M/CP 86/3-FB 
UX 50/2 
UX 51/2 
UO 6 
UX 51/2 
UX 52/2 
UX 53/2 
UX 15-FB 
UX 53/2 
M/CP 85/3-FB 
M/CP 88/3-FB 
UX 1 

And much later. 

AA2 11-FB 
*UO 6 
AA 2 11-FB 
*UO 6 
AA 2 11-FB 
*UO 6 
AA2 11-FB 
AA2 11 
AA2 12 
AA2 13 
AA2 14 
M/TU 4 
AA2 14 
*UO 6 
AA2 15 
A 144-FB 
*UO 6 
AA2 15 
A 140-FB 
AA2 16 
H2 161 

Edna McCoy 
*UO 6 
*UX 49/2-FB 
XU 10-FB 
UX 49/2 
*UO 6 
*XU 10-FB 
UX 49/2 
*PXX 17-FB 
*UX 49/2 
*PXX 17-FB 
M/CP 86/3-FB 
UX 50/2 
*UO 6 
*XU 10-FB 
*UO 6 
*XU 10-FB 
UX 51/2 
UX 52/2 
UX 53/2 
UX 15-FB 
*UO 6 
X:HY 10 
M/TU 124 
XU 10 
XU 14 

Norton McCoy 
*UO 6 
*XU 49/2-FB 
*UO 6-FB 
*UX 49/2-FB 
UX 49/2 
XU 10-FB 
*XU 49/2 
*UO 6 
*XU 10-FB 
*XU 49/2 
*PXX 17-FB 
M/CP 86/3-FB 
UX 50/2 
*UO 6 
*XU 10-FB 
*UO 6 
*XU 10-FB 
UX 51/2 
UX 52/2 
UX 53/2 
UX 15-FB 
*UO 6 
M/TU 124 
XU 10 
XU 14 

Professor Xavier 
* PXX 17-FB 
UX 15-FB 
UX 51/2 
UX 52/2 
UX 53/2 
UX 15-FB 
* UO 6 
M/CP 85/3-FB 
M/CP 88/3-Fb 
UX 1 

Cyclops 
UX 56/2 
UX 51/2 
UX 52/2 
UX 53/2 
*UO 6 
*UX 53/2 
M/CP 85/3-FB 
{UX 1} 

Iceman 
UX 56/2 
UX 51/2 
UX 52/2 
UX 53/2 
*UO 6 
*UX 53/2 
M/CP 85/3-FB 
{UX 1} 

Angel 
UX 51/2 
UX 52/2 
UX 53/2 
*UO 6 
*UX 53/2 
M/CP 85/3 
UX 1 


Next up Cyclops! 
David H

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Posted: 12 May 2004 09:42 pm  
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Good stuff. However, I wish you hadn't slipped in the stuff from PXX #17. There'll be time enough to include it when you're writing up the issue as a whole ... and honestly, I'm afraid that when we get around to doing so, we're going to find so many differences from the original issues that we may have to just chuck the whole series out as non-canon. There's only so many times you can go "this is a simplified/altered/bad retelling" before you give up and go "this ain't how it happened" and ditch the book. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 10:53 pm    
By Dhall

In all fairness, I have only analyzed the flashbacks from PXX 17. 

I did that because I do not want to have to go back and re-analyze the Beast's origin yet again. (And also they stand out quite clearly from the rest of PXX 17, so it's not like I've only written up some and ignored others.) 

It will be interesting to see how much of PXX we can keep. I think we will have to write off most of that series as rehash, and just keep any new scenes. 

I would only write off a whole book as non-cannon if it actually contradicts cannon stories, or if later books make it clear that a particular book is non-cannon, or if possibly if Marvel comes right out and says something isn't cannon. 

With these rehash series such as PXX and UO, we mostly have to concern ourselves with the new scenes. The only reason that I am taking as detailed an approach as I am with UO, is that it deals with everyone's origins. 

I suspect that PXX will contain much less new material than UO does, but it should still contain some new cannon scenes. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 09:03 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
It will be interesting to see how much of PXX we can keep. I think we will have to write off most of that series as rehash, and just keep any new scenes. 
<<<

It doesn't really work that way, though. To quote Russ, from a thread on the UO series: 

Quote: 
>>>
I don't want to pick and choose individual panels as canon. Either the story they're telling is canon, or it isn't. 
<<<

If the main stories in the PXX series differ too greatly from the originals, then they're simply non-canon. And any "new scenes" included in those issues are non-canon as well -- as we have no evidence that they actually occured in the *original* stories, just these non-canon retellings. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 09:24 am    
By Dhall

I don't see PXX as non-cannon. I see it exactly the same as I see UO. That is, it is mostly re-tellings of previously seen events with some new material added. 

We have had no problem doing just the same thing with flashbacks,or Classic X-Men for that matter, that is ignoring any previously told events, and just adding the new information to the MCP. 

Now if we were talking about say the comic book adaption of the cartoon series, I would say that isn't cannon. 

Now if there are major events in the PXX issues, that oh for a made up example, tell us that Bolivar Trask is Magneto's half-brother, I would start questioning the cannonicity of that series. 

Right now, I have no reason to do so. 

To be sure, I think that the amount of new material in PXX, is likely to be lower than in UO, but I won't know until these issues are analyzed. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 12:39 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
We have had no problem doing just the same thing with flashbacks,or Classic X-Men for that matter, that is ignoring any previously told events, and just adding the new information to the MCP. 
<<<


Help me out here. Where are we ignoring previously told events? 


watching: law and order

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 01:03 pm    
By Dhall

We are not for example listing scenes from classic x-men that appear in the original comics, only the new scenes (Because the original scenes are already in the MCP under the original comic listing.) 

This is also how we treat flashbacks to previously seen events. We do not list depictions of events that we have already seen in other issues,(since we are listing the original issue) if they provide no new information, and add only the ones that do provide new information. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 01:12 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I see. I misunderstood you. I took you to mean that we were ignoring previously told events where they were previously told. 

I think the distinction that Jeph is making here is that Classic X-Men, to my knowledge, didn't attempt to change previously told events, so we were never forced to say "this scene is canon, while that scene is not," in regards to Classic X-Men. It's all canon. 


watching: psylocke sleeping

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 01:34 pm    
By Dhall

Agreeed. Like I said, if we find some major event that changes or distorts the original cannon X-Men issue as originally seen, then the whole issue probably wouldn't be cannon. 

I would like to make a distinction here, though, and say that if we find a number of really minor differences (hairstyles, different clothing, or mid-90's pop culture references, scenes presented from different angles, or slight dialogue changes) that any number of these would not make the issue in question non-cannon. 

Now if we find that events are happening in a completely fashion, then we have a cannonicity question. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 05:41 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
I would like to make a distinction here, though, and say that if we find a number of really minor differences (hairstyles, different clothing, or mid-90's pop culture references, scenes presented from different angles, or slight dialogue changes) that any number of these would not make the issue in question non-cannon. 
<<<


Agreed. 


watching: lou dobbs

			*	*	*

Thread 70

Posted: 09 May 2004 06:51 pm    Post subject: DC vs. Marvel vol.1 no.1
By Jason Doty

D.C versus Marvel Comics Vol.1 no.1 (1996) 
Written by Ron Marz 
Penciled by Dan Jurgens (Pgs 1-8 and 17-24) 
and Claudio Castellini (Pgs 9-16 and 25-32) 

Basic Story: The Cosmic Conscience of the Marvel Universe and DC Universe become aware of each other. A bum in an alley is the key, his job is to keep the universes apart, and enlists the aid of a young man to help him that wants nothing to do with what is transpiring. Various heroes and villains from both universes are transported to the other universe. Eventually, whole landscapes are transported. 

Chronology tips for placement 

Spider-Man is wearing the redesigned blue and red costume and is going by the name Ben Reilly. 
Joker is on the loose in Gotham City and seems to know Spider-Man, who does not recognize him. 
X-Men Storm, Wolverine, and Gambit are battling Juggernaut in Westchester, when Juggernaut disappears. Wolverine has bone claws and all are wearing the Jim Lee designed uniforms. 
Juggernaut is transported to Metropolis and is taken down by Superman in front of the Daily Planet. Superman is wearing his original costume, but is sporting a mullet. 
Captain America is plucked from the Marvel Universe, while battling Hydra Agents at the Statue of Liberty. 
Wonder Woman is taken from Gateway City after saving a cop on a collapsing bridge. She is wearing the redesigned John Byrne bikini. 
Hulk and his wife Betty are collecting firewood when he is taken. Hulk is big, green, and intelligent. 
Superboy is showing off in Hawaii, and is taken after his girl friend Tana gets upset. Superboy is sporting his New Kids on the Block look. 
Lobo is taken while beating up aliens in a space bar located in deep space. 
Storm, Gambit, and Wolverine disappear while telling Professor X, Beast, Cyclops, Phoenix, and Psylocke what happened to Juggernaut. 
Green Lantern ( Kyle Rainer), Elektra, Flash (Wally West), Thor (In the costume made by Deodato Jr.), Aquaman, Silver Surfer, Captain Marvel (DC), Sub-Mariner (long hair ponytail), Quicksilver, and Catwoman (in original costume) all disappear. 
In the Batcave, Batman defeats Bullseye, whose in costume, after taking Robin (Tim Drake) hostage. Robin is transported to the Massachusetts Academy, in front of Jubilee and Husk, who are both in there original Generation X uniforms. Batmans uniform is a solid black uniform. 
Now whole landscapes switch universes, 4s Freedoms Plaza is located in Metropolis. 
J. Jonah Jameson is now the new editor at the Daily Planet, and tells Clark Kent and Lois Lane to find out what is going on. Kent and Lane are engaged. 
Jimmy Olsen is a TV reporter. 
Clark Kent writes a story about the events transpiring. (Montage) Steel vs. the Absorbing Man, Green Lantern vs. the Green Goblin, Captain America vs. Bane, Daredevil vs. the Riddler, Batman vs. Venom, Dr. Doom vs. Captain Marvel (DC), Punisher vs. the Terminator (Teen Titians) Punisher has a ponytail, The Demon vs. Ghost Rider (Dan Ketch), Firestorm and the Martian Manhunter vs. Thing and the Human Torch, Dr. Strange wearing a red trench coat with a big White shirt is working with Starman (no costume), Archangel and Hawkman flying together ( Archangel is wearing his Angel costume but still has metal wings and blue skin), She-Hulk and Super Girl taking down some villains (Super Girl is wearing the costume that looks like Supermans), Superman vs. Annihulus, and Spider-Man taking down the Man-Bat. 
Ben Reilly gets a job at the Daily Planet. 
The Original Spectre does not know what is transpiring. 
The Living Tribunal is also caught off guard. 

List of Characters 

Spider-Man (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol. 1 no.2) 
A grungy old man (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Access (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Joker (last in?, next in?) 
Wolverine (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Storm (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Gambit (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Juggernaut (last in?, next in?) 
Superman (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Captain America (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Hydra Agents (last in?, next in?) 
Wonder Woman (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Hulk (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Betty Banner (last in?, next in?) 
Superboy (Last in? Next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Tana (last in?, next in?) 
Lobo (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Professor X (last in?, next in?) 
Psylocke (last in? next in?) 
Beast (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Cyclops (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Jean Grey (last in?, next in?) 
Green Lantern (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Elektra (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Flash (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Thor (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Aquaman (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Silver Surfer (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Captain Marvel (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Sub-Mariner (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Quicksilver (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Cat Woman (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Batman (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Robin (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Bullseye (last in?, next in?) 
Jubilee (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Husk (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Lois Lane (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
J. Jonah Jameson (last in?, next in?) 
Steel (last in?, next in?) 
Absorbing Man (last in?, next in?) 
Green Goblin (last in?, next in?) 
Bane (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Daredevil (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Riddler ( last in?, next in?) 
Venom (last in?, next in?) 
Doctor Doom (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Punisher (last in?, next in?) 
Wilson Slade (last in?, next in?) 
Firestorm (last in?, next in?) 
Thing (last seen?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Demon (last in?, next in) 
Ghost Rider (last in?, next in?) 
Martian Man Hunter (last in?, next in?) 
Human Torch (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Doctor Strange ( last in?, next in?) 
Starman (last in?, next in?) 
Archangel (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Hawkman (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
She-Hulk (last in?, next in?) 
Super Girl (last in?, next in?) 
Annihilus (last in?, next in?) 
Man-Bat ( last in?, next in?) 
Spectre (last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Living Tribunal ( last in?, next in Marvel Comics versus DC vol.1 no.2) 
Giant Blue Figure (Last in? Next in Marvel Comics versus DC Vol.1 no.2) 
Giant Red Figure (Last in? Next in Marvel Comics versus DC Vol.1 no. 2)

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 May 2004 11:59 pm    Post subject: X-Men Placement for DC versus Marvel, Marvel Versus DC
By Jason Doty

I think I've narrowed the X-Men appearances down for this cross-over. 

I think we should list this series as Versus, because the title goes back and fourth between the four issues. 

Storm 
UX 325 
*Versus 1 
*Versus 2 
*Versus 3 
*(Amalagam titles, not yet analyzed) 
*Versus 4 
UX 326 

Wolverine 
UX 325 
*Versus 1 
*Versus 2 
*Versus 3 
*(Amalagam titles, not yet analyzed) 
*Versus 4 
W2 93 

Gambit 
UX 325 
*Versus 1 
*Versus 2 
*Versus 3-BTS 
*(Amalagam titles, not yet analyzed) 
*Versus 4-BTS 
X 45 

Juggernaut 
X 42 
*Versus 1 
*Versus 2-BTS 
*Versus 3-BTS 
*(Amalagam titles not yet analyzed) 
*Versus 4-BTS 
W2 93 

Psylocke 
UX 325 
*Versus 1 
*Versus 2-BTS 
*Versus 3-BTS 
*( Amalagan titles, not yet analyzed) 
*Versus 4-BTS 
XU 9 

Professor X 
W2 92 
*Versus 1 
*Versus 2-BTS 
*Versus 3-BTS 
*(Amalagam titles not yet analyzed) 
*Versus 4-BTS 
UX 326 

Beast 
UX 325 
*Versus 1 
*Versus 2 
*Versus 3-BTS 
*(Amalagam titles, not yet analyzed) 
*Versus 4-BTS 
UX 326 

Cyclops 
UX 325 
*Versus 1 
*Versus 2 
*Versus 3-BTS 
*(Amalagam titles, not yet analyzed) 
*Versus 4-BTS 
XF 115 

Phoenix 
UX 325 
*Versus 1 
*Versus 2-BTS 
*Versus 3-BTS 
*(Amalagam titiles, not yet analyzed) 
*Versus 4-BTS 
XU 8 

Jubilee 
UX 325 
*Versus 1 
*Versus 2 
*Versus 3 
*(Amalagam titles, not yet analyzed) 
*Versus 4 
GX 7 

Husk 
GX 6 
*Versus 1 
*Versus 2-BTS 
*Versus 3-BTS 
*(Amalagam titles not yet analyzed) 
*Versus 4-BTS 
GX 7 

Archangel 
UX 325 
*Versus 1 
*Versus 2 
*Versus 3-BTS 
*(Amalagam titles not yet analyzed) 
*Versus 4-BTS 
XU 8 

The reason I chose this placement was, I had to place Juggernaut here prior to his Malibu appearances, and have him in Westchester. I also had to place it before Psylocke was injured by Sabretooth. The Uniforms all match as well as Wolverine's bone claws.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 02:26 am    
By david

One problem here: 
Quote: 
>>>
The reason I chose this placement was, I had to place Juggernaut here prior to his Malibu appearances, and have him in Westchester. I also had to place it before Psylocke was injured by Sabretooth. The Uniforms all match as well as Wolverine's bone claws. 
<<<


That paragraph doesn't make sense because you have that particular mini happening in 1996, i.e after Psylocke gets injured by Sabertooth! :confused:

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 05:17 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Nope, he's got it happening just after Uncanny X-Men #325. Psylocke was injured in Uncanny X-Men #328, so there are no worries on that score. 

I'm wondering about the placement for Gambit, though. Uncanny X-Men #325 leads straight into X-Men #45, so there's not a great deal of room for Marvel Vs. DC to slot in there.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 09:01 am    
By david

This is from the start of Jason's first post: 
Quote: 
>>>
D.C versus Marvel Comics Vol.1 no.1 (1996) 
<<<

How the last paragraph from his second post ties in with the above line, I'm not sure? :laughing:

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 11:00 am    Post subject: Absent Rogue
By dimadick

Speaking of X-Men characters in the crossover, where was Rogue? Could DC vs Marvel actually occur during her leave of absence which started in X-Men II #45 (October, 1995) and ended in Avengers I #401 (August, 1996)? 

By the way are you sure that the amalgamated appearances should be added to the characters chronologies? I could offer an analysis of the first bunch of Amalgam books if needed. But the Amalgamated versions more often than not vary from their parent characters in personal history, personality or even appearance. Perhaps enough to be considered separate characters?

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 12:46 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Dimadick-- 

No, it couldn't take place after Rogue left the X-Men in X #45, because by that time the Juggernaut was already in the Ultraverse. 

David-- 

Jason isn't saying that this mini *takes place* in "1996" -- he's noting that it was PUBLISHED in 1996. 

Jason-- 

As to the "official title" of the book, a few thoughts ... we could potentially list the series by: 

- the title of the first issue (DC versus Marvel) 
- the title of the final issue (DC versus Marvel) 
- the title of the TPB edition (DC versus Marvel) 

Hmm, they're all the same! :wink:

Yeah ... I'm voting for "DC versus Marvel" as the official title, with a possible Key note for "Marvel vs DC" directing readers to the "DC versus Marvel" entry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 01:26 pm    
By Ant-Man

The title for this series has the same problem as JLA/Avengers (which is also titled Avengers/JLA)... 

I agree with Jeph, that the title should be listed based on the first issue...

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 01:41 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Eh ... in general, in my own comic collection, though, I base a book's "official title" on the title of the LAST issue. 

I mean, you wouldn't list "Uncanny X-Men" under "X-Men" and you wouldn't put all your Captain Americas under "Tales of Suspense". So my personal rule is, stick all the books under the series' *most recent* title. 

Of course, that leads me to stuff like putting all my Defenders v1 issues under "New Defenders" ... so it's not a blanket rule that I can recommend using here. I'd recommend a case-by-case basis for changing titles on the MCP, which seems to be what we're using ... "X-Men"/"Uncanny X-Men" is listed by its most recent title, "JLA/Avengers "/"Avengers/JLA" will probably get listed by its better known original title, and "Tales of Suspense"/"Captain America" is listed as two separate titles. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 03:12 pm    
By Ant-Man

You're right. I didn't intent it to be a blanket rule...I was implying that name changes of a "lesser" nature don't need to be noted. 

Personally, I have all of my X-Men under X-Men until the title changes to Uncanny, at which point it moves over to the U's. 
Same thing with Defenders...it move from Defenders to New Defenders within my collection. 

(Oh man...do I have to admit that I have issues of Mutant Misadventures of Cloak and Dagger, which changes to Cloak & Dagger vol 3?) :very happy:

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 03:18 pm    
By Dhall

Perhaps for limited series, we can adopt the rule of listing them by their first issue, as they are of a finite nature (unlike X-Men/Uncanny.....) 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 03:41 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Huh. I have some issues of "Mutant Misadventures of C&D" too ... does the title really change to "C&D v3" later on? 

What's the final issue's indicia read? 

Nice to know I'm not the only one here anal about filing their comics... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 03:55 pm    
By michel

Oddly, the indicia for #14-19 reads Cloak and Dagger Vol.1 and not Vol.3 

Michel

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 04:22 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Volume numbers don't bother me so much -- Marvel always messes up their volume numbers. 

You want weird indicia? Check out "Sgt. Fury and his Howling Defenders" #147. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 04:39 pm    
By michel

True, this is is a good one ! But Marvel has found the answer for not messing up the volume numbers : they don't use them anymore on "dangerous" titles. The last Silver Surfer issue's indicia reads : Silver Surfer No. 8 :smile:

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 05:20 pm    Post subject: This was first official analysis.
By Jason Doty

I was going to annalyze each issue and post it, but it seems easier to just post where I believe a charecter appears and go from there. The person who said Gambit's chronology is off is correct. His should read 

Gambit 
X45 
* DC Versus Marvel 1 ( I suppose this is how the consensus wants to post it.) 
* DC Versus Marvel 2 
* DC Versus Marvel 3-BTS 
* DC Versus Marvel 4-BTS 
UX 326 

Also the DC Chronology Project has placed this crossover for Wonder Woman, Robin, Superboy, Hawkman, and Super Girl. 

After we nail down the Marvel Charecters, I guess we can start on them. 

Also should'nt we start a Amalagam Page, and do a chronological listing for that. 

Also could I get some help with the other Marvel Charecters. I've got all the X-Men and related titles, but no Spider-Man, Thor, Captain America, Elektra, and such. 

Oh! and what do you guys think about my placement.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 05:26 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Is there any way it can go earlier? 

Right now we have "Exiles vs the X-Men" and "the Phoenix Resurrection" placed between X #45 and UX #326. In both of those, the Juggernaut is in the Ultraverse, and has been for at least a short while. 

Since the Juggernaut appears on Marvel-earth in the DCvM series, we need to place it "at least a short while" before X #45. 

Do we see any gaps available *before* UX #325? When does Gambit wake up from his coma? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 05:42 pm    Post subject: Malibu happens after UX 326
By Jason Doty

Jeph, I know it's close but my current chronology does not interfere with the Malibu titles. It can happen easily in this spot because because nothing is going on between UX 325 and 326. 
I had to place it after X:Prime after 322 because of Juggernaut and before W2 93, where he leaves for Malibu, before Psylocke is injured in UX 328. This is the only place it could fit. The Issues where published in early 1996, so they were probably drawn around this time in 1995. 
Also, not any of the X-Charecters appear in Malibu untill after UX 326 and W2 93. 

Any thoughts?

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 06:16 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I had to place it...after 322 because of Juggernaut and before W2 93, where he leaves for Malibu... This is the only place it could fit. 
<<<


Why? 

What's wrong with, say, between UX #324-325? 

We have "Exiles vs. the X-Men" and "the Phoenix Resurrection" happening, like, ONE DAY after UX #325 and X #45, in order to rationalize Rogue's appearance in both -- she decided to leave the team in X #45, but EXvX and PR occured as she was gathering her stuff from the mansion -- and she left right after they ended. 

Since by EXvX, Juggy's been in the Ultraverse more than a day, it'd be nice to place his pre-departure scene in DCvM #1 a few days prior to UX #325. 

Like I said -- what's wrong with between UX #324-325? Gambit's up and around by then, right? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 06:30 pm    Post subject: You are the expert
By Jason Doty

I'm still new to this, but your the expert. So, between 324 and 325. I'll check it out.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 08:51 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

michel wrote: 
>>>
True, this is is a good one ! But Marvel has found the answer for not messing up the volume numbers : they don't use them anymore on "dangerous" titles. The last Silver Surfer issue's indicia reads : Silver Surfer No. 8  
<<<


I have to ask. What's dangerous about the Silver Surfer title? 


watching: larry king

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 09:45 pm    
By david

Quote: 
Jason isn't saying that this mini *takes place* in "1996" -- he's noting that it was PUBLISHED in 1996.  

Heh, heh. Whoops! :embarassed: :laughing:

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 02:52 am    Post subject: Gambit
By dimadick

"When does Gambit wake up from his coma? " 

Gambit wakes up from his "three week coma" in Uncanny X-Men #323 (August, 1995). Psylocke for the first time senses "danger" from him. This leads to her unconsentual scanning of his mind in Uncanny X-Men #324 (September, 1995). Rogue and Iceman are in a road trip during both issues. 

So Jeph, any clear idea where to fit DC versus Marvel among the X-Titles of the time?

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 07:27 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Why are we all placing DC VS. MARVEL so far back? Using publication order as a first clue (but certainly not the only one to consider), we have the following: 

UX #323-325 was published in Aug-Oct 1995 
All New Exiles #5 was published in Feb 1996 
The Amalgam titles were published in Apr 1996 

Why do we have to have Juggernaut in DC VS. MARVEL before he leaves for the Ultraverse? Why not after he returns to the MU in All New Exiles #5? 

It looks like folks are using Rogue's and Psylocke's appearances in DC VS. MARVEL to determine earlier placement. IIRC (and granted I haven't rechecked all the issues), both Rogue and Psylocke appear only as amalgamated characters -- Rogue in JLX #1 and Psylocke in Magneto & the Magnetic Men #1. Given the warped reality of the Amalgam Universe, can't Rogue be here after she leaves the X-Men? And isn't it possible for Psylocke to appear here after her injury (after all, she's merged with a DC character who's probably hale and hearty)? 

The problem I see with the early placement as currently proposed is that it may pose problems as we try to work DC VS. MARVEL into the chronologies of non-X characters.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 08:17 am    
By michel

>I have to ask. What's dangerous about the Silver Surfer title? 

Well I just meant the titles with numerous volumes, for them it's easy to forget one. The MCP has for Vol.2 the 1982 Graphic Novel, and there's the 1988 two-issue limited serie, so the current volume should be Vol.5. Ask people in a comic-shop, I'm not sure most of them would answer that. That's what I meant with dangerous titles, imho. 

Michel

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 10:31 am    
By Ant-Man

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Volume numbers don't bother me so much -- Marvel always messes up their volume numbers. 

You want weird indicia? Check out "Sgt. Fury and his Howling Defenders" #147. 
<<<


I remember that one! 

Don't forget that Marvel Team-Up often had Marvel Team-Up Starring Spider-Man and ________ in the indicia (insert guest star into the blank!)...

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 11:34 am    Post subject: Why Dc vs. Marvel has to go back farther?
By Jason Doty

Quote: 
>>>
Why are we all placing DC VS. MARVEL so far back? Using publication order as a first clue (but certainly not the only one to consider), we have the following: 

UX #323-325 was published in Aug-Oct 1995 
All New Exiles #5 was published in Feb 1996 
The Amalgam titles were published in Apr 1996 

Why do we have to have Juggernaut in DC VS. MARVEL before he leaves for the Ultraverse? Why not after he returns to the MU in All New Exiles #5? 

It looks like folks are using Rogue's and Psylocke's appearances in DC VS. MARVEL to determine earlier placement. IIRC (and granted I haven't rechecked all the issues), both Rogue and Psylocke appear only as amalgamated characters -- Rogue in JLX #1 and Psylocke in Magneto & the Magnetic Men #1. Given the warped reality of the Amalgam Universe, can't Rogue be here after she leaves the X-Men? And isn't it possible for Psylocke to appear here after her injury (after all, she's merged with a DC character who's probably hale and hearty)? 

The problem I see with the early placement as currently proposed is that it may pose problems as we try to work DC VS. MARVEL into the chronologies of non-X characters. 
<<<

First Psylocke is in Dc vs. Marvel 1, and is injured in UX 328 
Second Wolverine mutates around Wolverine 100 
Archangel is injured by Sabretooth in the Sabertooth one shot 
This is before Onslaught and after X-Men Prime. 
There is just to much change going on in 1996 (as far as publication dates go) To have the charecters look the same. 

Just visually checking out was going on with other Heroes by covers and right ups from other sights. The Avengers would appear hear just prior to the Crossing. (New Uniforms, for Quicksilver, Hawkeye, and Black Widow) 
Hulk appears here as inteligent. (Around H2 434) 

If Spider-Man, and Fantastic Four people could jump on this conversation, we could definatly nail it down.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 03:47 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I have to ask. What's dangerous about the Silver Surfer title? 
<<<


Well, in terms of publications that have been titled "Silver Surfer" (no subtitles), there's been: 

* Silver Surfer (Lee/Kirby one-shot) 
* Silver Surfer (18-issue ongoing series) 
* Silver Surfer (Lee/Moebius two-issue miniseries later reprinted with the "Parable" subtitle) 
* Silver Surfer (Lee/Byrne one-shot) 
* Silver Surfer (longest-running ongoing series) 
* Silver Surfer (current ongoing series) 

The Lee/Kirby book is all but forgotten, and it and the Lee/Moebius Parable both occur outside of Marvel continuity. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 04:29 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I don't think we (or Marvel) count one-shots as separate volumes... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 05:06 pm    
By michel

Yet, the Lee/Byrne Graphic Novel is listed in the MCP as Silver Surfer Vol.2. And the 1987 ongoing is Vol.3 for both Marvel and the MCP 

Michel

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 05:48 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

michel wrote: 
>>>
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I don't think we (or Marvel) count one-shots as separate volumes... 
<<<

Yet, the Lee/Byrne Graphic Novel is listed in the MCP as Silver Surfer Vol.2. And the 1987 ongoing is Vol.3 for both Marvel and the MCP 
<<<


We do, and it's not a graphic novel. It's just a comic book. 


watching: lou dobbs

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 06:02 pm    
By michel

I didn't know that. The french print was in a graphic novel size, so I mistakenly assumed the US print was a GN too. 

Michel

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 06:19 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

So, wait, what's the difference between one-shots that we list as "Title: Subtitle", and one-shots that we list as "Title vol. X"? 

If the one-shot comes out when there is no ongoing "parent" title, does it get listed as a new volume or as a one-shot? 

If the one-shot comes out when there IS an ongoing "parent" title, does it get listed as a new volume or as a one-shot? 

If the one-shot comes out without a specific subtitle, does it automatically get listed as a new volume? 

If the one-shot comes out WITH a specific subtitle, does it automatically get listed as a one-shot? 

Do we actually have hard-and-fast rules for this sort of thing, or do we just wing it? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 07:22 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Do we actually have hard-and-fast rules for this sort of thing, or do we just wing it? 
<<<


We wing all of them. There's nothing official about it. We don't even have guidelines. They're just codes that we use to say *this* is a shorthand way of saying *that*. 

When I started, I could have said that the code for Avengers was Q, but A was easier to remember. There are some that, almost by definition, are not easy to remember. That's what the Key is for. 

The most hard-and-fast rule that I use in assigning codes is that the long-run titles have shorter codes, which means less typing for me. 


watching: paula zahn

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 10:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
First Psylocke is in Dc vs. Marvel 1, and is injured in UX 328 
Second Wolverine mutates around Wolverine 100 
Archangel is injured by Sabretooth in the Sabertooth one shot 
This is before Onslaught and after X-Men Prime. 
There is just to much change going on in 1996 (as far as publication dates go) To have the charecters look the same.  
<<<


Okay, given Psylocke we put DC VS. MARVEL before UX 328 (which is before W2 100 anyway), but does it have to go before UX 325? Does Rogue's presence absolutely dictate placement during her leave between X 45 and A 401? 

As far as Sabretooth goes, I had originally thought that DC VS. MARVEL was his first MU appearance after return from the Ultraverse, and that the Sabretooth one-shot occurred after DC VS. MARVEL. Does this placement make sense? 

In DC VS. MARVEL, Peter Parker is back in costume (the new Spider-Man duds), so I'm thinking it has to be after SENSM 0 (is that right?). Note, too, that Spidey's calendar placements around this time must consider Mary Jane's nine-month pregancy. 

Quicksilver was first seen in the new costume in the Crossing, making it possible for DC VS. MARVEL to occur after the Crossing. At first glance, it's hard to conclude the relative placement of DC VS. MARVEL and the Crossing, as we don't see Iron Man in the DC crossover and the Wasp and Hawkeye appear only as amalgamations. (Could Jan be bug Jan at this point, and could Hawkeye be back with the Avengers?) And don't forget the loss of Thor's powers around this time -- possibly something else to consider. Could DC VS. MARVEL actually occur after T 501 and A 397? 

Unfortunately I lack the time right now to delve into this (dang!), and I've only just begun to spec out a rough calendar for this time period, but I just offer a point that DC VS. MARVEL might occur later than you think. We need to look at the big MU picture and see not only how DC VS. MARVEL fits into individual chronologies but also how all those chronologies interact in other crossovers and plotlines.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 10:30 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
The most hard-and-fast rule that I use in assigning codes is that the long-run titles have shorter codes, which means less typing for me. 
<<<



So how about DCVM for DC VS. MARVEL? I'm getting tired of typing out the whole title. :wink:
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 10:51 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

Quote: 
>>>
As far as Sabretooth goes, I had originally thought that DC VS. MARVEL was his first MU appearance after return from the Ultraverse, and that the Sabretooth one-shot occurred after DC VS. MARVEL. Does this placement make sense? 
<<<


Umm, didn't Juggernaut , not Sabretooth, go to the Ultraverse? 

Quote: 
>>>
In DC VS. MARVEL, Peter Parker is back in costume (the new Spider-Man duds), so I'm thinking it has to be after SENSM 0 (is that right?). Note, too, that Spidey's calendar placements around this time must consider Mary Jane's nine-month pregancy. 
<<<


I'm going from memory here, but wasn't the Spider-Man in DCVM Ben Reilly? Except he was working at the Daily Bugle, not at the Daily Grind/waiter/whatever else he did.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 07:10 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
Umm, didn't Juggernaut , not Sabretooth, go to the Ultraverse?  


Yup, it's Juggie. Where did Sabretooth come from? :embarassed:


Quote: 
I'm going from memory here, but wasn't the Spider-Man in DCVM Ben Reilly? Except he was working at the Daily Bugle, not at the Daily Grind/waiter/whatever else he did. 


Your memory serves you correctly. It is Ben Reilly. (My mind is trying to fog that whole clone era. :wink: ) But my point about DC VS. MARVEL having to occur after SENSM 0 is valid, as the latter issue is when the costume Ben wears in DC VS. MARVEL debuted.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 May 2004 03:13 pm    Post subject: Spider-Man II
By dimadick

"Okay, given Psylocke we put DC VS. MARVEL before UX 328 (which is before W2 100 anyway), but does it have to go before UX 325? Does Rogue's presence absolutely dictate placement during her leave between X 45 and A 401? " 

This seems like a confused comment. We can either place the series before UX 325 or after X 45. Both can not be true since the former is followed by the later. 

"Yup, it's Juggie." 

Juggernaut returned to the X-titles with X-Men II #53 (June, 1996). He then appears in Uncanny X-Men #334 and X-Men II #54 (July, 1996). The later finds him defeated by Onslaught and trapped within the realm of Cytorrac. DC versus Marvel presumably happens before this issues. Ideas for placement in his chronology? 

"In DC VS. MARVEL, Peter Parker is back in costume (the new Spider-Man duds), so I'm thinking it has to be after SENSM 0 (is that right?). Note, too, that Spidey's calendar placements around this time must consider Mary Jane's nine-month pregancy." 

Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson are not even mentioned during the crossover. It occurs during the term of Ben Reilly as Spider-Man. This term indeed started in Sensational Spider-Man #0 (January, 1996) and ended in his death during Spider-Man #75 (December, 1996). So where to place the crossover within a year of appearances? 

"We don't see Iron Man in the DC crossover and the Wasp and Hawkeye appear only as amalgamations." 

Actually Hawkeye makes a cameo in DC versus Marvel #3. He is seen in an archery competition with Green Arrow II/Connor Hawkes. I don't remember Iron Man or Wasp depicted on panel though. 


"And don't forget the loss of Thor's powers around this time -- possibly something else to consider." 

Thor is one of the main participants of the crossover and actually manages to defeat Captain Marvel. He seems to be powerful enough. 

"I've only just begun to spec out a rough calendar for this time period" 

Can you think of any important events affecting the main Marvel participants? They include Captain America, Elektra, Hulk, Jubilee, Namor, Quicksilver, Silver Surfer, Spider-Man II, Storm, Thor and Wolverine. If not, the crossover can be equally well be placed between any title published during 1995-1996. 

"Except he was working at the Daily Bugle, not at the Daily Grind/waiter/whatever else he did." 

He was actually working in the Daily Planet as the photographer attached to reporters Clark Kent and Lois Lane. The Planet was under the new direction of J. Jonah Jameson and under the new ownership of Kingpin/Wilson Fisk. 

"(My mind is trying to fog that whole clone era. ) But my point about DC VS. MARVEL having to occur after SENSM 0 is valid, as the latter issue is when the costume Ben wears in DC VS. MARVEL debuted." 

Not just the costume but his Spider-Man identity. You might want to refresh your memory with the following link. The "Life of Reilly" is a 35 part introspection of the Clone Saga.: 

http://www.newcomicreviews.com/GHM/specials/LifeOfReilly/

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 06:56 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
"Okay, given Psylocke we put DC VS. MARVEL before UX 328 (which is before W2 100 anyway), but does it have to go before UX 325? Does Rogue's presence absolutely dictate *against* placement during her leave between X 45 and A 401? "  
<<<


Forgot that crucial little word. That's what I get for rushing.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 May 2004 07:29 pm    Post subject: Other problems I see!
By Jason Doty

I'm not an expert on any of the other titles, but this is why I believe it should fall oround this time period. 

Hulk is intelegent, and starts getting more savage after H2 434 
That Hulk issue also guest stars many of the people who will be in the DCVM series. 

Dr. Strange is also wearing the trench coat outfit. 

I believe the Avengers charecters would be wearing their new uniforms, just prior to the events in the Crossing. In the crossing Iron Man goes bad, and he is in DCVM 3, and the armor he is wearing would place him before the Crossing. 

Thor is wearing his new costume, but I don't believe he ever wore it in his comic book. untill Onslaught, I chose the break in storyline in his own comic to place him. Just before he fell ill. 

Ben Reily Spider-Man would have to come between SENSM 0 because he dyes his hair blonde, and in DCVM it is brown. 

I'm doingt my best with this and check out my New DCVM post to see if this would not work for the group.

			*	*	*

Thread 71

Posted: 13 May 2004 09:47 am    Post subject: XSE #1-4 and Bishop : XSE #1-3
By michel

XSE #1, 11/96 by John Ostrander / Chris Gardner / Terry Austin and Tom Palmer 

Main sequence : Bishop and Shard use the Danger Room to recall memories of their past and talk about them. 
Characters : Bishop, Shard 

Flashback 1 : into the Mutant Relocation Camp, where Bishop and Shard were born. They're children. Virago is "part of the Exhumes, the radical mutant group with hate for humanity. Used to vibrate her hand or legs so fast she could shatter anything." Sureshot and Rochimbeux are after Virago, so she uses little Shard as a living weapon. Seeing that, young Bishop jumps on Virago's neck, so Sureshot has a clear shot and kills Virago. At that moment, Bishop knows he wants to be one of the XSE. 
Characters : Bishop, Shard, Sureshot, Rochimbeux, Virago 

Flashback 2 : Bishop doesn't remember his parents, but he remembers his grandmother. She told him and Shard stories about the X-Men. It is implied that it could be Storm or one of her descendant, but it's not clearly stated. Hancock says to Bishop "If anyone would know [about the X-Men], your grandmother would". She says "People think me dead ; with my powers gone, it is better for the children and myself that they do." 
Characters : Bishop, Shard, Bishop's grandmother, Hancock 

Flashback 3 : Bishop and Shard are older and at the bedside of their dying grandmother. Bishop swears he will always look after Shard. 
Characters : Bishop, Shard, Bishop's grandmother. 

Flashback 4 : Billboy and Halftrack kill Hancock and are stopped by Recoil and Amazon. This scene was already shown in Uncanny X-Men Annual '96 and Bishop #3, nothing new here. 

Flashback 5, Part 1 : in the XSE HQ West, Bishop and Shard begin their classes with a crew of other young mutants under Hecate's orders. Hecate is the commanding officer of the XSE and was Hancock's teammate during the Summers Rebellion. She teaches the children some history. 

Historic facts : "You know of the concentration camps for homo superior, of how each mutant was tattoed over the right eye with an "M", so that, even if one escaped the camp, he could easily be identified. You've all heard of the Summers Rebellion, in which I was honored to serve. You know how the alliance of humans and mutants brought low the hated Sentinels, those robots designed to detect and kill or immobilize mutants or anyone whose talents made them feared and hated by normal humans. The Sentinels assumed dictatorial powers over all beings until Summers came and forged an alliance between human and mutant to bring them down. Alas, almost as soon as the rebellion succeeded, that alliance started to break apart, especially since Summers was no longer there to keep it going. Our people wanted to move out of the camps and make better lives, but over and over they were met with hostility and driven away. Some more radical mutant groups, such as the Exhumes, led by a literal firebrand named Daemon, met hate with hate.And Daemon could hate. Perhaps it's because his talent made his skin contantly burn with exposure to air or perhaps it was a rage festering in his soul. But even during the rebellion, Summers found it difficult to keep him and the exhumes in line. With Summers gone, Daemon listened to no one except his own dark soul. He and his exhumes made war on humans. At first, it was mere raids, but then he and his Exhumes destroyed the human settlement near Del Ray. That brought the Council into session, and nearly at war with one another !" 
Flashback 6 (flashback in flashback 5) : at the Council, a compromise is reached. The camp are closed and the branding are stopped, but Deamon and his Exhumes can't be allowed to continue, so the mutants must police themselves. The XSE is created with at least Hecate, Recoil, Amazon, Sureshot and Rochimbeux. "And the tattoo, the "M" that was once our shame, was made into a badge of honor." 
Characters : Hecate, Recoil, Amazon, Sureshot, Rochimbeux 

Flashback 5, Part 2 : Fitzroy is one of the new cadets. Shard sees in Hecate a model. When she talks her back because she didn't come to visit Hancock, Hecate uses her null-light field to impress her. Bishop wants to protect his sister, and Hecate likes that. But she says Shard she's here only because of Bishop, and Shard resents that. 
Characters : Hecate, Bishop, Shard, Fitzroy 

Flashback 7 : Sureshot and Trace take the cadet with them on a training patrol. A horde of Emplates attack them and kills Sureshot and Trace. Fitzroy wants to flee, but an Emplate threaten Shard. 
Characters : Sureshot, Trace, cadets (including Bishop, Shard, Fitzroy, Shirley Baylor, Hooper), Emplates 


XSE #2, 12/96, by John Ostrander / Deodato Studios and Mozart Cuto 

Main sequence : continues from #1. It's daytime. 
Characters : Bishop, Shard 

Flashback 1 : continues from #1-FB7. Shard manifests her mutant power for the first time. Bishop takes command : he and Shirley (who was the best shot on the practice field) use guns and protect the other cadets, but one of them, Hooper, is killed by an Emplate before the help arrives. I can only recognize Amazon through the XSE officers. 
Characters : Sureshot, Trace, cadets (including Bishop, Shard, Fitzroy, Shirley Baylor, Hooper), Emplates, Amazon 

Flashback 2 : one month later, Shard and Baylor are rewarded, and Bishop is the youngest cadet ever to be invested as an officer in the XSE. 
Characters : Hecate, Bishop, Shard, Shirley Baylor 

Flashback 3 : years later, Bishop is a grown-up. Harmony Base is created, "the utopian ideal where humans and mutants were dedicated to living the dream, making it work.". Bishop has just been made a squad commander and Hecate has a new recruit for his squad : Malcolm. His mutant talent is detecting humans, and his father is very rich, very powerful and very influential. Bishop agreeds to take him if he can have another recruit, Randall. Hecate finds him raw, irreverent and undisciplined, but Bishop likes his spirit and that he does the unexpected. 
Characters : Bishop, Hecate, Malcolm, Randall 

Flashback 4 : Malcolm and Randall are always bickering, but one event will make them inseperable. The Exhumes, leaded by Styglut, attack Harmony Base and kill all the humans, including Donalbain, Malcolm's brother. 
Characters : XSE agents (including Bishop, Malcolm, Randall, Feral), Exhumes (including Styglut, Feebs), Donalbain Malcolm-BTS 


XSE #3 : 01/97, by John Ostrander / Deodato Studios and Mozart Cuto 

Main sequence : continues from #2. 
Characters : Bishop, Shard 

Flashback 1 : Bishop, Malcolm and Randall are after Mountjoy, but it's Shard that gets him, and that should get her a promotion. 
Characters : Mountjoy, Bishop, Malcolm, Randall, Shard 

Flashback 2 : Shard's ambition is to get Hecat's job. For that, she works on a project : using holographic replicas to augment or replace XSE personnel. Bishop fights a prototype in a demonstration with Hecate and Mr Lycadeon (who works for the Witness) but he isn't convinced, and that makes Shard angry. 
Characters : Bishop, Shard, Hecate, Lycadeon 

Flashback 3 : it's after the XSE moved the Academy to New York. Shard and Fitzroy flirt together, both of them mostly to infuriate Bishop. Fitzroy says her he's the illegitimate son of Anthony Shaw, Black King of the Hellfire Club. But tonight, his true son, William, will die. That really happens, but Shard is not sure if Fitzroy killed his brother or not. 
Characters : Bishop, Shard, Fitzroy 

Flashback 4 : after that, Fitzroy robbed banks, stealed technology. Bishop arrests him using a plan made by Shard. At the trial, Anthony Shaw meets Bishop and tells him his son won't be found guilty. He offers membership in the Hellfire Club to Bishop, who declines. 
Characters : Bishop, Malcolm, Randall, Shard, Fitzroy, Anthony Shaw 

Flashback 5 : freed, Fitzroy gathers together other rich young mutants and forms a group of Hellions, who likes to torture humans. Once again, Bishop arrests him, but Fitzroy knows his father won't allow a second trial. He proposes a deal : his freedom against the location of the Exhumes. Bishop wants to check first, and send Shard with other XSE agents. But Fitzroy lied : Emplates were waiting for them. When Bishop arrives, Shard has become an Emplate ! 
Characters : Fitzroy, Bishop, Malcolm, Randall, Shard 


XSE #4 : 02/97, by John Ostrander / Deodato Studios and Mozart Cuto 

Main sequence : continues from #3. The night has fallen. Full moon 
Characters : Bishop, Shard, Storm 

Flashback 1 : continues from #3-FB5. Bishop must fight Shard and he can see the real Shard is still there. He knocks her down without killing her and brings her to Lycadeon, at Stark / Fujikawa. He wants to use the holographical prototype to make a replica of her, but he has to ask the Witness, who proposes a deal : if Bishop works one year for him, then he'll get the holographic uniprojector of Shard. The deal is agreed, and Shard's body dies. Next day, Hecate suspends Bishop from all duties for one year. Then, Lycadeon introduces him to the head of security at Stark / Fujikawa : Shackle. And Bishop recognizes her : it's Shirley Baylor ! 
Characters : Bishop, Shard, Malcolm, Randall, Lycadeon, Witness, Hecate, Shackle 

Flashback 2 : the Witness is satisfied with Bishop's missions. But Bishop is uncomfortable with him being an X-Man. How did he live so long ? Is he good or evil ? One day he'll know him and he'll judge him. 
Characters : Bishop, Witness, Shackle 

Flashback 3 : when his year's service is up, Bishop is given the uniprojector with the holographic matrix of Shard. He destroys the master matrix Stark / Fujikawa wanted to keep, then comes back to Hecate, who gives him his old rank back. His first assignment is to pick up Fitzroy, and then come the events that led him to our era. 
Characters : Bishop, Shard-BTS, Lycadeon, Witness, Hecate 

A logical place for the main sequence would be just after the Uncanny X-Men Annual '96, where Bishop and Shard meet again. 


Bishop XSE #1 : 01/98, by John Ostrander / Steve Epting / Mark Prudeaux 

p1-p10 : Nighttime. "The scene : the penthouse of J. Jerome Knox, a wealthy human devoted to better relations between homo sapiens and homo superior, which makes him a target to extremists on both sides. Tonight was supposed to be a fund raising event, a unification party atteneded by both humans and mutants to support those ideals. The gatecrashers are the Fanatix, an extremist mutant group that wants to rule humans, not live with them." Bishop, Shard, Malcolm and Randall are the Omega Squad. They take down the Fanatix, only the leader Pulsar and his girlfriend Shadowbox escape. Knox is worried for the relations between mutants and humans, a task he works on since his wife and son died in a accident last year. Suddenly, Randall kills Knox, then says he wasn't aware of what he was doing. 

p11-p12 : later the same night. Anthony Shaw meets a young woman, Annabella Knox, Knox's niece, also called the Rook. She wants to be part of Shaw's Inner Circle, and for that claims she will destroy the XSE. 

p13-p22 : later, the same night, at the XSE HQ. Hecate and the Omega Squad watch on TV : 
"We are talking with Selden Seymour..." 
" Trask. I've taken the name Trask in honor of the man who created the Sentinels." 
"... of the Human Defense League in the wake of the tragic death today of Alexander Knox who worked tirelessly for human and mutant coexistence. Mr. Trask, is the HDL suggesting a return to the terrible days of Sentinel rule which humans and mutants alike worked to overthrow ?" 
"Sentinel rule was flawed, June, but it shouldn't blind people to the essential truth : mutants are dangerous ! Knox's death at the hands of the XSE, a state-sponsored terrorist group, proves once and again that mutant cannot be trusted to police mutants, not when they have killers in their own midst ! The HDL calls for immediate dismantling of the XSE and for branding of mutants to recommence until a more permanent solution can be found !" 
Bishop guesses a high level psionic could have taken control of Randall. In jail, Randall is replaced by an impostor and breaks free with the help of Pulsar and Shadowbox. Later in the Rook's HQ, the real Randall learns from the Rook that "this body you see is just one of a number of bodies I can wear. I grow them from organic, plant-like materials and can switch between them." And the next body the Rook will use is Bishop's one. 

Characters : Bishop, Shard, Malcolm, Randall, J. Jerome Knox, the Fanatix (Pulsar, Shadowbox, Kali, Hardball, Dogface, Razorback, Visigoth), Anthony Shaw, the Rook, Hecate, Trask 


Bishop XSE #2 : 02/98, by John Ostrander / Steve Epting and Nick Napalitano / Mark Prudeaux, Robert Jones, Andrew Pepoy and Steve Moncuse 

p1-p5 : presumably the night after #1. The Fanatix crush a celebration for the reconstruction of the Statue of Liberty, the Rook is photographed in Bishop's body. 

p6-p7 : same moment, nighttime, full moon. Anthony Shaw has called Bishop and tells him what he knows about the Rook. 

p8-p11 : at the XSE HQ. Hecate agrees Bishop has been set up but since there's no proof, she asks Malcolm to apprehend Bishop. Shard finds Bishop in her room, he asks her to find data on the Know family and on shape-changers. 

p12-p13pn1 : at the Rook's HQ. The Rook takes Annabella Knox's body to take possession of the Knox holdings. Randall learns the Rook's bodies are unstable. 

p13pn2-p19pn3 : The day after. Bishop looks for info on the Rook in a bar. He learns nothing, then Shard calls him. For the replicants, she "dug up somethin in ancient history about a group called SHIELD. They used to have something called LMDs, Life Model Decoys. Evidently, just before the Sentinel takeover, they were experimenting with organic variations that could be grown to most configurations but were abandoned as physically unstable". Shard also learned that J. Jerome Knox changed his will just a week ago, making his niece Annabella his sole beneficiary, and she's scheduled to show up at the court today to make her claim. Then Malcolm arrestst Shard, he monitored her channel. 

p19pn4-p22 : Bishop spots Annabella Knox at Courts Central, he hopes she'll lead him to Randall, but Malcolm arrives to arrest him. 

Characters : the Fanatix (the Rook, Pulsar, Shadowbox, Hardball, Razorback), Anthony Shaw, Bishop, Hecate, Shard, Malcolm, Randall 


Bishop XSE #3 : 03/98, by John Ostrander / Steve Epting / Andrew Pepoy and Mark Prudeaux 

p1-p4 : continues straight from #2. Bishop convinces Malcolm to help him 

p5-p7 : Randall tries to persuade Pulsar the Fanatix are expendable to the Rook. The Rook arrives and takes Hecate's body : he wants to involve the XSE in the assassination of Trask. They leave to gather troops at the Gem. 

p8-p9pn4 : Bishop learns from an informer, Booger, guys are hired at the Gem to trash some humes. 

p9pn5-p11pn4 : Malcolm frees Shard 

p11pn5-p21 : At the Gem, the Rook informs his troops of his plans, a proof of XSE implicatin will be Randall's dead body. That makes Bishop reveal himself, but Randall "wakes up" and tells him it's a fake-out. The Rook understands he's been tricked and kills Pulsar and Shadowbox. The Omega Squad follows him at his HQ and catches him in his real body : Jimmy Knox. 

p22 : later, debriefing at XSE HQ. "J. Jerome Knox probably knew his kid was a potential mutant from birth, DNA testing. Hence, his interest in furthering mutant/human relations. What he didn't know is that the kid is a sociopath. The boy's body in the crash was an organic LMD. The kid killed both his parents and took over his father's identity. The boy's talent manifested early and seems to allow him to possess non-sentient organic life-forms for an unlimited time or take over sentient ones for brief bursts. His desire to foster a war between humans and mutants seems genuine because he believes mutants will win this time and then rule." 

Characters : Bishop, Malcolm, Randall, Pulse, the Rook, Shadowbox, Booger, Shard, Hecate. 



There are 3 flashbacks in Uncanny X-Men Annual '96 
UX '96-FB1 : Bishop and Shard, teens, eat with Hancock 
UX '96-FB2 : Billiboy and Halftrack kill Hancock, Bishop uses his power for the first time and take them. Amazon and Recoil pick Bishop and Shard and ask them to join the XSE. 
UX '96-FB3 : initially, Shard dies here in an ambush. It has been retconned in the XSE mini, so we must assume she survived the ambush. 

BISHOP/LUCAS BISHOP 
**XSE 1-FB1 
**XSE 1-FB2 
**XSE 1-FB3 
UX '96-FB1 
UX '96-FB2 
**XSE 1-FB5 
**XSE 1-FB7 
**XSE 2-FB1 
**XSE 2-FB2 
**XSE 3-FB3 
**XSE 2-FB3 
**XSE 2-FB4 
**XSE 3-FB4 
**BXSE 1 
**BXSE 2 
**BXSE 3 
**XSE 3-FB1 
UX '96-FB3 
**XSE 3-FB2 
**XSE 3-FB5 
**XSE 4-FB1 
**XSE 4-FB2 
**XSE 4-FB3 
UX 287-FB 
{UX 282} 
... 
UX '96 
**XSE 1 
**XSE 2 
**XSE 3 
**XSE 4 
X 58 

SHARD II 
**XSE 1-FB1 
**XSE 1-FB2 
**XSE 1-FB3 
UX '96-FB1 
UX '96-FB2 
**XSE 1-FB5 
**XSE 1-FB7 
**XSE 2-FB1 
**XSE 2-FB2 
**XSE 3-FB3 
XF 141 
**XSE 3-FB4 
**BXSE 1 
**BXSE 2 
**BXSE 3 
**XSE 3-FB1 
UX '96-FB3 
**XSE 3-FB2 
**XSE 3-FB5 
**XSE 4-FB1 
**XSE 4-FB3-BTS 
{BSHP 2} 
... 
UX '96 
**XSE 1 
**XSE 2 
**XSE 3 
**XSE 4 
M/FAN2 6 

STORM/ORORO MUNROE 
UX '96 
**XSE 4 
UX 338 

HANCOCK 
**XSE 1-FB2 
UX '96-FB1 
BSHP 3-FB 
UX '96-FB2 

FITZROY, TREVOR 
**XSE 1-FB5 
**XSE 1-FB7 
**XSE 2-FB1 
**XSE 3-FB3 
XF 141 
**XSE 3-FB4 
**XSE 3-FB5 
UX 287-FB 
UX 281 

AMAZON 
**XSE 1-FB-FB6 
UX '96-FB2 
BSHP 3-FB 
**XSE 2-FB1 
UX '96-FB3 

**FERAL II 
**XSE 2-FB4 

**HECATE II 
**XSE 1-FB-FB6 
**XSE 1-FB5 
**XSE 1-FB7 
**XSE 2-FB2 
**XSE 2-FB3 
**BXSE 1 
**BXSE 2 
**BXSE 3 
**XSE 3-FB2 
**XSE 4-FB1 
**XSE 4-FB3 

**MALCOLM 
**XSE 2-FB3 
**XSE 2-FB4 
**XSE 3-FB4 
**BXSE 1 
**BXSE 2 
**BXSE 3 
**XSE 3-FB1 
**XSE 3-FB5 
**XSE 4-FB1 
**UX 287-FB 
**UX 282 
**UX 283 
**UX 284 
**UX 285 
**UX 287 

**RANDALL 
**XSE 2-FB3 
**XSE 2-FB4 
**XSE 3-FB4 
**BXSE 1 
**BXSE 2 
**BXSE 3 
**XSE 3-FB1 
**XSE 3-FB5 
**XSE 4-FB1 
**UX 287-FB 
**UX 282 
**UX 283 
**UX 284 
**UX 285 
**UX 287 

RECOIL II 
**XSE 1-FB-FB6 
UX '96-FB2 
BSHP 3-FB 
UX '96-FB3-BTS 

**ROCHIMBEUX 
**XSE 1-FB-FB6 
**XSE 1-FB1 

**SURESHOT II 
**XSE 1-FB-FB6 
**XSE 1-FB1 
**XSE 1-FB7 
**XSE 2-FB1 

**TRACE 
**XSE 1-FB7 
**XSE 2-FB1 

**FEEBS 
**XSE 2-FB4 

MOUNTJOY 
**XSE 3-FB1 
BSHP 1 

STYGLUT/ 
**XSE 2-FB4 
**UX 287 
UX 288 

** VIRAGO II 
**XSE 1-FB1 

**SHACKLE/SHIRLEY BAYLOR 
**XSE 1-FB7 
**XSE 2-FB1 
**XSE 2-FB2 
**XSE 4-FB1 
**XSE 4-FB2 
**UX 287-FB 

**HOOPER 
**XSE 1-FB7 
**XSE 2-FB1 

**LYCADEON 
**XSE 3-FB2 
**XSE 4-FB1 
**XSE 4-FB3 

**MALCOLM, DONALBAIN 
**XSE 2-FB4-BTS 

**SHAW, ANTHONY 
**XSE 3-FB4 
**BXSE 1 
**BXSE 2 

WITNESS II/REMY LEBEAU 
**XSE 4-FB1 
**XSE 4-FB2 
**XSE 4-FB3 
**UX 287-FB 
BSHP2 2 

**KNOX, J. JEROME 
**BXSE 1 

**ROOK/KNOX JIMMY 
**BXSE 1 
**BXSE 2 
**BXSE 3 

**PULSAR III 
**BXSE 1 
**BXSE 2 
**BXSE 3 

**SHADOWBOX 
**BXSE 1 
**BXSE 2 
**BXSE 3 

**KALI II 
**BXSE 1 

**HARDBALL II 
**BXSE 1 
**BXSE 2 



**DOGFACE 
**BXSE 1 

**RAZORBACK II 
**BXSE 1 
**BXSE 2 

**VISIGOTH 
**BXSE 1 

**TRASK/SELDEN SEYMOUR 
**BXSE 1 

**BOOGER 
**BXSE 3

Last edited by michel on 14 May 2004 07:30 am; edited 3 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 10:10 am 
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

We don't know that Bishop's grandmother was Storm. She could just have white hair because she was old ... and on her deathbed, we see her with brown eyes. Storm has blue eyes. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 10:26 am    
By michel

well, she isn't named, but 

* she really looks like her 
* Hancock says about the X-Men : "if anyone would know, your grandmother would" 
* she says "people think me dead; with my powers gone, it is better for the children and myself that they do" 
* on the picture on her deathbed where we see she's got brown eyes, she has not her M tattoed, then has it again two panels later. 

it's strongly implied she's Storm, no ? 

Michel

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 10:31 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

"Strongly implied" isn't "stated". And she only "really looks like her" because she has white hair ... which most old women have. 

As for: 

Quote: 
>>>1
* on the picture on her deathbed where we see she's got brown eyes, she has not her M tattoed, then has it again two panels later. 
<<<

I don't see what that has to do with ANYthing. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 10:45 am    
By michel

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
"Strongly implied" isn't "stated". 
<<<


Point taken. I'll edit my post. 

Quote: 
>>>
As for: 
* on the picture on her deathbed where we see she's got brown eyes, she has not her M tattoed, then has it again two panels later. 
I don't see what that has to do with ANYthing. 
<<<


it's just to point that the brown eyes could be a mistake, too 

Michel

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 12:48 pm    
By SeanCurtin

There was also an issue of GENERATION X that strongly implied that M was his grandmother. Not that he couldn't be descended from both M and Storm. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 01:42 pm    Post subject: Re: XSE #1-4 and Bishop : XSE #1-3
By John Simons

michel wrote: 
>>>
Flashback 1 : into the Mutant Relocation Camp, where Bishop and Shard were born. They're children. Virago is "part of the Exhumes, the radical mutant group with hate for humanity. Used to vibrate her hand or legs so fast she could shatter anything." Sureshot and Rochimbeux are after Virago, so she uses little Shard as a living weapon. Seeing that, young Bishop jumps on Virago's neck, so Sureshot has a clear shot and kills Virago. At that moment, Bishop knows he wants to be one of the XSE. 
Characters : Bishop, Shard, Sureshot, Rochimbeux, Virago 

Flashback 2 : Bishop doesn't remember his parents, but he remembers his grandmother. She told him and Shard stories about the X-Men. It is implied that it could be Storm, but it's not clearly stated. Hancock says to Bishop "If anyone would know [about the X-Men], your grandmother would". She says "People think me dead ; with my powers gone, it is better for the children and myself that they do." 
Characters : Bishop, Shard, Bishop's grandmother, Hancock 

Flashback 3 : Bishop and Shard are older and at the bedside of their dying grandmother. Bishop swears he will always look after Shard. 
Characters : Bishop, Shard, Bishop's grandmother. 
<<<
 


As I mentioned in the ""Behind the scenes", flashbacks, recordings, etc." thread, these first few FBs aren't true FBs, but rather replays in the Danger Room of events from Bishop's memories. All the characters who "appear" in the flashbacks are actually holograms. The rest of the FB in this issue (and the rest of the series) are the more traditional variety.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 09:23 pm    Post subject: Bishop's granny
By rhod

Actually I assumed when I read this series that Bishop's grandmother was Storm's daughter or even grand-daughter, who knew about the X-men from stories told to her.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 10:44 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

michel wrote: 
>>>
well, she isn't named, but 

* she really looks like her 
* Hancock says about the X-Men : "if anyone would know, your grandmother would" 
* she says "people think me dead; with my powers gone, it is better for the children and myself that they do" 
* on the picture on her deathbed where we see she's got brown eyes, she has not her M tattoed, then has it again two panels later. 
<<<


Going from memory again here, but didn't we see Storm's death in Bishop: The Last X-Man (#8, based on cover scans). I'd like to think that Bishop would have commented on it if she hadn't died at that point or if she was a relative.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 May 2004 07:29 am    
By michel

Andy Holcombe wrote: 
>>>
Going from memory again here, but didn't we see Storm's death in Bishop: The Last X-Man (#8, based on cover scans). I'd like to think that Bishop would have commented on it if she hadn't died at that point or if she was a relative. 
<<<


You're right, Bishop tells the story of the death of Wolverine and Storm in this issue. And though BSHP2 8 appears in the MCP, neither Storm nor Wolverine are listed, is it intentional ? Is there a reason to doubt Bishop's story ? 

Michel

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 May 2004 10:47 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

But the "Last X-Man" future was a different timeline than the one Bishop came from, wasn't it? Just because Storm died a certain way in that world, doesn't say anything about how she died (or didn't die) in the future timeline of Bishop's past. 

And the reason they're not listed on the MCP is because they're from an alternate future. "Days of Future Past"/2013 excepted, we don't really list alternate-future characters with any regularity. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 May 2004 05:45 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
But the "Last X-Man" future was a different timeline than the one Bishop came from, wasn't it? Just because Storm died a certain way in that world, doesn't say anything about how she died (or didn't die) in the future timeline of Bishop's past. 
<<<


I thought that Last X-Man spun out of Bishop's time. Or maybe I'm misremembering.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 May 2004 06:22 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Not that I remember. There was a "Witness" character in that time, but since we now know that he's "trans-chronological" or whatnot, and everywhen at once, that doesn't really matter. 

I don't think it was ever specified. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 72

Posted: 14 May 2004 09:30 am    Post subject: Hellstorm : Prince Of Lies
By michel

Hellstorm's childhood : flashbacks in Marvel Spotlight #13 and Hellstorm #2 
I only have the french print for Marvel Spotlight #13, printed in a small-size book. I can't give the original pages, so I have numbered the panels. Victoria Hellstorm's listing gives M/SPT 12-FB instead of M/SPT 13-FB 

M/SPT 13-FB panels 1-5 : Satan takes a human form. Ch : Satan 

M/SPT 13-FB panels 6-8 and H:PL 2 p9pn6-p10pn5 : Satan meets Victoria and seduces her. Ch : Satan, Victoria 

M/SPT 13-FB panel 9 : Satan and Victoria's wedding, before Daimon's birth. Ch : Satan, Victoria 

H:PL 2 p11pn1 : Victoria is pregnant. Ch : Victoria, Satan 

H:PL 2 p11pn2-4 : Daimon's birth. Ch : Victoria, Satan, Daimon 

H:PL 2 p11pn5 : Daimon is less than a year and a half. Satan reads him books. Ch : Satan, Daimon, Victoria 

H:PL 2 p11pn6-7 : Daimon is a year and a half, Satan begins to take extended trips, leaving him and Victoria alone. She decides to have another child. Ch : Victoria, Daimon 

H:PL 2 p11pn8 : Daimon is three, when his mother gives birth to Satana, he hears her shriek and his father laugh. It's only a red panel. Ch : Daimon-BTS, Victoria-BTS, Satan-BTS, Satana-BTS 

M/SPT 13-FB panel 10 : Satan and Victoria look at Daimon watching her sister in her cradle. 
Ch : Satan, Victoria, Daimon, Satana 

M/SPT 13-FB panel 11 : again, Satan takes extended trips. Ch : Victoria 

H:PL 2 p12pn1-2 : Daimon and Satana are little kids. While Daimon plays alone, Satan teachs Satana how to kill birds. Ch : Daimon, Satan, Satana 

H:PL 2 p12pn3 : Victoria looks at Daimon reading comic books. Ch : Victoria, Daimon 

M/SPT 13-FB panels 12-16 : later the same day, Victoria looks for his husband and Satana in the basement, she finds Satan ordering Satana to kill a cat. Satana runs away, and Satan reveals his true identity to Victoria. Ch : Victoria, Satan, Satana, Daimon-BTS 

H:PL 2 p12pn4-6 : Daimon hears his mother's screams. Passing near Satana giggling, he finds Victoria in a state of shock. Satan is gone. Ch : Daimon, Satana, Victoria, Satan-BTS 

M/SPT 13-FB panel 17 : Victoria is put in an asylum, unable to think or to speak. Ch : Victoria 

M/SPT 13-FB panel 18 : Victoria gets better. She waves Satana goodbye when she's placed in an orphanage. Ch : Victoria, Satana 

M/SPT 13-FB panel 19 : Daimon visits his mother. She gives him a chain. Ch : Victoria, Daimon 

H:PL 2 p13pn5 : Daimon was placed in a different orphanage than Satana's. At eighteen he joined a monastery. He is twenty-one when his mother dies. Ch : Daimon 

SATAN/"MARDUK KURIOS"/"BEELZEBOUL" 
M/SPT 13-FB 
H:PL 2-FB 
M/SPT 13-FB 
H:PL 2-FB 
M/SPT 13-FB 
H:PL 2-FB-BTS 
TER 3-FB 

HELLSTROM, VICTORIA 
M/SPT 13-FB 
H:PL 2-FB 
M/SPT 13-FB 
H:PL 2-FB 
M/SPT 13-FB 
H:PL 2-FB 
M/SPT 13-FB 

HELLSTORM/DAIMON HELLSTROM 
H:PL 2-FB 
M/SPT 13-FB 
H:PL 2-FB 
M/SPT 13-FB-BTS 
H:PL 2-FB 
M/SPT 13-FB 
H:PL 2-FB 
GR2 1 

SATANA 
H:PL 2-FB-BTS 
M/SPT 13-FB 
H:PL 2-FB 
M/SPT 13-FB 
H:PL 2-FB 
M/SPT 13-FB 
VT 2/4

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 May 2004 12:25 pm    
By michel

I've just read #16 and #18 in which it's said that Victoria lied in her diary. "The Hellstroms, throughout the generations, were satanists. My mother was sold, without question, to an occult group her parents were involved with. In the diary, she claims to have been seduced by the devil, without knowing his true nature. In truth, she underwent savage medical preparation to become the mother of his children. And she knew it. Jaine, they tattoed her womb with satanic symbols. Anyway, the group died some years later, ending their somewhat diseased plans for myself and my sister." 
also "[Satan] was delighted to have driven your mother insane with guilt over being the devil's receptacle". 

Yet, parts of the flashbacks in Hellstorm #2 are Daimon's memories. Could we say that only Victoria's motivations and explanations were false, but the scenes seen really happened, letting the flashbacks accurate ? 

Michel

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 May 2004 07:49 pm    
By michel

Issues #1-10 are already in the MCP 

Hellstorm : Prince Of Lies #3 

Flashback 1 : p2pn4-p3 on a roof, Pasty says she can't love Daimon and runs away from him = Defenders #116-FB slightly deformed (on a roof, Patsy says she doesn't know if she can love Daimon and he runs away from her) 
Flashback 2 : p4pn1 Patsy and Daimon admit their love = Defenders #122 
Flashback 3 : p4pn2 Patsy and Daimon's wedding = Defenders #125 
Flashback 4 : p4pn3 Patsy and Daimon in front of their first huge house 
Flashback 5 : p4pn4-5 Hellstorm and Hellcat working together for Hellstrom & Hellstrom - Occult Investigations 

These two flashbacks are merged and already appear in the MCP, though it's just before Marvel Fanfare #20 in Hellcat's listing and just after in Hellstorm's one. 

Flashback 6 : p5-p6. Allusion to Defenders #118, then = Defenders #120-121. It's mistakenly placed here, it should be in between flashbacks 1 and 2. 
Flashback 7 : p7pn1. = West Coast Avengers #14-16. Hellstorm and Hellcat help the West Coast Avengers against Master Pandemonium 
Flashback 8 : p7pn2-4. Daimon's power is waning 
Flashback 9 : p8. Gargoyle is invited to stay in their home 
Flashback 10 : p9pn5-p10pn4. Unpacking some crates, Patsy finds an old book, the Grimorium Verum, which contains a spell to summon the devil. Daimon has a small heart attack. 
Flashback 11 : p10pn5-p13. Daimon has a bigger attack and stays inconscious. A normal doctor can't do anything, so Dr. Strange is called. He diagnoses Daimon is going to die without his darksoul. 
Flashback 12 : p14-p22. Patsy uses the Grimorium Verum to call Satan. Satan agrees to give back his son his darksoul, but Patsy sees her husband in his true form, and becomes mad. 

Flashbacks 8-12 are listed in the MCP. Oddly, they are five separate FBs in Hellstorm's listing, but only one in Hellcat's and Gargoyle's ones. 

Hellstorm : Prince Of Lies #5 

Flashback : Gabriel Rosetti exorcises Jason Maldonado from Soulfire, but Soulfire is just dormant. Three years later, at puberty, Soulfire manifests again. That was four years ago. 
Characters : Gabriel Rosetti, Jason Maldonado/Soulfire 

Hellstorm : Prince Of Lies #11, 02/94 by Len Kaminski / Peter Gross 

Continued straight from #10. Hellstorm arrives in Hell and visits it, guided by someone pretending to be Simon Garth, but in the end he reveals himself as Satan. 
Characters : Hellstorm, Satan 

Hellstorm : Prince Of Lies #12, 03/94 by Warren Ellis / Leonardo Manco 

Months after #11. Avram Siegel goes where a friend, Emeneya, an african magician, has been murdered. He's killed by the same murderer and like Emeneya, some organs are taken from his body. Hellstorm makes Detective Gunyon tell him about Avram's death. Ingenuity Lee proposes Gabriel Rosetti a drug of his own invention, K. Hellstorm invokes the demon responsible for Avram's death : Zahgurim, armorer to Satan. Out of love for him, a creature is building himself a magical armor, made of magicians body parts. Satana feeds herself with human souls, keeping her victims in an abandoned church in Alphabet City, the Body Orchard. 

Characters : Zahgurim's demon, Hellstorm, Gargoyle, Avram Siegel, Deathurge, Hellcat, Detective Annie Hecht, Detective Gunyon, Gabriel Rosetti, Ingenuity Lee, Cameron Kilburn, Jaine Cutter, Zahgurim, Satana. 

Hellstorm : Prince Of Lies #13, 04/94 by Warren Ellis / Leonardo Manco 

Presumably the same night than in #12. Full moon. Hellstorm seeks informations about Zaghurim's creature. A satanist, Cameron Kilburn, tells him to go and see Anton Devine in San Francisco. Detective Gunyon is obsessed with what Hellstorm made to him. Deathurge, the agent of suicide for the guilty, makes some victims. In San Francisco, Anton Devine is threatened by an emissary of Heaven and is saved by Jaine Cutter, aka the Terrorist. Patsy makes some progress, she speaks using names. Rosetti has taken K and his soul reaches the angels. At his club, Hellstorm meets Devine and Cutter. Jaine Cutter wants to avoid both Hell and Heaven to invade Earth. She has sold the souls of seven policemen to Hell, in exchange Zahgurim armored her with a second skin. She also carries the legendary Breathing Gun, which can kill demons. Devine deduces that the spots where Zaghurim's creature has killed form, joined together on a map, the mark of Zaghurim. Another magician, Dust Johanssen, is killed by the creature. Daimon and Jaine are attracted by each other and kiss. 

Characters : Hellstorm, Cameron Kilburn, Detective Annie Hecht, Detective Gunyon, Deathurge, Anton Devine, Jaine Cutter, Gargoyle, Hellcat, Bruno Coffee, Gabriel Rosetti, Al Shaitan, Dust Johanssen, Zahgurim's demon 

Hellstorm : Prince Of Lies #14, 05/94 by Warren Ellis / Peter Gross 

Continued from #13. Hellstorm brings Jaine Cutter and Anton Devine at Fire Lake. Unnoticed, Patsy gets her sanity back, while in the necromanteion (magical workspace) Daimon and Jaine have sex. Gabriel Rosetti agrees to work for the angels. Hellstorm and Jaine find Johanssen's body, and make his ghost talk. Meanwhile, the creature kills a minor adversary of Dr. Strange, Hellstorm and Jaine still arrive too late, but they prevent the creature to kill another magician, Jakita Wegener. Hellstorm kills the demon and Jaine kills Zahgurim. Deathurge feels Patsy's will to die and kills her. 

Characters : Hellstorm, Jaine Cutter, Anton Devine, Gargoyle, Hellcat, Gabriel Rosetti, Dust Johanssen, Jakita Wegener, Zahgurim's demon, Zahgurim, Deathurge. 

Hellstorm : Prince Of Lies #15, 06/94 by Warren Ellis / Leonardo Manco 

Days after Patsy's death (at least a week as seen in #16), nighttime. Her family took her away. Hellstorm and Jaine have to deal with Inanna, demoness of inspiration and madness, and her servant, the Bailiff (we'll learn later there are numerous Bailiffs, I'll put them in the same entry). Fighting Inanna, Hellstorm wears the Black Halo, but only the ruler of Hell should have it. Stephen Loss is a devil-breaker. He works on the electronic voice phenomenons : through his equipment he can hear the dead talk. Tonight, he hears Patsy who wants to talk to Daimon. 

Characters : Hellstorm, Jaine Cutter, Anton Devine, a Bailiff, Inanna, Jack Wintergarden, Stephen Loss, Hellcat-BTS 

Hellstorm : Prince Of Lies #16, 07/94 by Warren Ellis / Leonardo Manco 

Dr. Stephen Loss comes at Fire Lake to visit Hellstorm, presumably the day after #15. He claims he has an audiotape of Patsy speaking from the afterlife. Jaine tells Anton that Hellstorm has changed and has doubts. Hellstorm listens to Patsy : "I died a week ago. Longer, maybe. I couldn't live with my guilt, you see. A good man came to end it. And me. Find my husband, Stephen. Daimon Hellstrom. Give him a message from me. Tell him... the place I'm in... I can leave it, get a new body. As I said, he was a good man. When I feel ready to return to the world, he will arrange it. But I won't come back to a world with a creature like my husband in it. Tell him that. And tell him that I loved him."Stephen Loss happens to know a lot of things. He tells Daimon her mother "was purchased from her parents, themselves satanists, by a group names the Chapel of Dresden. These were occult psychopaths, once closely connected to Hitler. Their intention was to breed a new high priest and priestess. Half human, half hell, messiahs from the pit, to lead the chapel into a new century, as rulers of men. It didn't work, of course. The breeding was fine, you understand, but I myself exterminated the Chapel of Dresden six months after your sister was born.". The diary his mother wrote is "absolute rot". She always knew she dated Satan, and it's guilt that drove her to madness. Loss also knows that Hellstorm has killed his father and that he wears the Black Halo. He knows the whole plan : "You've been planning since your rebirth. For the injection of the inhuman component of your soul, previously expelled, began the feud anew. "To the death, Father". Your words. So you bought a second home in San Francisco, always the center of occultism in America, gained the acquaintance of Al Shaitan, satanist and nightclub owner, and listened. Listening for a way to kill Satan. For you knew the power of all magic is in naming. Should you possess the true name or identifying symbol of a thing, you would control that thing. And you did not know your father's name. There are many demons, and most of them have purported to be the mythic "Satan" at one time or another. Your father simply claimed the name more than most. It was clever, because he commanded a great deal of Hell. It wasn't safe for the true name of such a creature to be common knowledge. But you needed it." Hellstorm learned the name from a woman using the name LaVoisin. "It was expected at a high price, one which in the future will have repercussions.". The transmigration of damned souls from Hell to Heaven provided an alibi. Hellstorm could confront his father in Hell. 

Flashback : continued from #11. Hellstorm uses his trident against his father, Marduk Kurios, and kills him. But he didn't intend to take the Black Halo, the mark of regency : he's now ruler of Hell. 
Characters : Hellstorm, Satan 

"But you didn't take the throne immediately. You spoke to the devil's courtiers, who kept Satan's death quiet, like he was an old soviet premier. And you returned to Earth with no one the wiser. The rest of Hell noted only that Satan's rule had gone lax. They bent the rules. Zahgurim, the Bailiff of Madness, the antimuse Inanna, all sought to claim pieces of Earth for themselves. Due to the apparent power vacuum in Hell, Heaven is pushing the war. The Asura, the Lord's soldiers, have begun by killing satanists. Reducing the power of Hell on Earth. Your friend, Gabriel Rosetti, the Exorcist, knows them." Loss gone, Daimon can cry over Patsy. 

Characters : Dr. Stephen Loss, Gargoyle, Anton Devine, Jaine Cutter, Hellstorm 

Hellstorm : Prince Of Lies #17, 08/94 by Warren Ellis / Derek Yaniger 

This story happens in the January of the year before Satan's death. Hellstorm dealed with the Somnambulist and Ervil Allred, a murderer who had hided in the Jericho Monastery. 

Characters : Hellstorm, Somnambulist and his servants (January and December), Ervil Allred 

Hellstorm : Prince Of Lies #18, 09/94 by Warren Ellis / Leonardo Manco 

Hellstorm tells Jaine Cutter the truth, that he is Satan know, but that he is not his father. He wants to make his own job description. Gabriel Rosetti and two Asuras kill the whole Ambasat group, the Ambassadors of Satan, though they're all amateurs. Full moon. Jaine tries to become friend with Isaac. Hellstorm brings Jaine to Hell. He summons a Bailiff and tells him to inform Hell that the throne is once more occupied. 

Charactes : Hellstorm, Jaine Cutter, Gabriel Rosetti, Gargoyle, Bailiff 

Hellstorm : Prince Of Lies #19, 10/94 by Warren Ellis / Leonardo Manco 

It's the morning. Hellstorm and Jaine haven't been out of bed in two days. Devine hears about an angelic possession. Hours later, Hellstorm investigates and finds Dr. Loss is already there. He exorcises the angel, Tzadqiel, and emprisons him in the house of his victim. 

Characters : Anton Devine, Gargoyle, Hellstorm, Jaine Cutter, Dr Loss, Tzadqiel. 

Hellstorm : Prince Of Lies #20 has been treated by Sean Curtin in this board : http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=197. I totally agree with his analysis, except that we don't know yet LaVoisin's child is Satan, it will be told in #21. It's autumn in France. 

Hellstorm : Prince Of Lies #21, 12/94 by Warren Ellis / Leonardo Manco 

Last issue, Ellis concludes in haste. It's nighttime. Rosetti comes at the Fire Lake mansion to kill Hellstorm with the Breathing Gun but can just shoot him in the leg. When Hellstorm makes him enter his house, he goes into convulsions, because nothing angelic or demonic can enter the mansion, so the angelic drugs has been dragged out of his system instantly. Loss thinks about his plans to kill Hellstrom. He devised K, he's an agent of Heaven, made by the Angels of the Asura to live only during the 20th century as the Earthly hand of Heaven's war. Suddenly Hellstorm appears and kills him ! Back at the mansion, he learns that Gabriel has gone mad. In Manhattan, Gunyon bears Satana's mark. She gives him a gun, loaded with bullets bearing Satana's mark, impregnated with occult juices. He will go out into the city and shoot people at random. Their souls will belong to Satana, and she will eventually grow powerful enough to challenge the supernatural supremacy of Heaven and Hell. Hellstorm destroys the House of Blue Lights where K were released. At the mansion, he receives LaVoisin's letter and laugh. In exchange for his father's true name, he was forced to donate his seed to LaVoisin. But dead devils are reborn on Earth, and the boy is almost certainly Satan. It's nighttime, full moon. Hellstorm kisses Jaine. It has been a year since he arose anew. 

Characters : Hellstorm, Jaine Cutter, Gargoyle, Anton Devine, Gabriel Rosetti, Dr. Loss, Satana, Detective Gunyon. 

HELLSTORM/DAIMON HELLSTROM 
**H:PL 3-FB (moved from after M/FAN 20) 
M/FAN 20 
DEF 148 
C&D2 8 
WCA2 14 
WCA2 15 
WCA2 16 
WCA2 41 
M/FAN 59/2 
**H:PL 3-FB (instead of 5 H:PL-3 FB) 
**H:PL 17 
H:PL 1 
H:PL 2 
H:PL 3 
H:PL 4 
H:PL 5 
H:PL 6 
H:PL 7 
H:PL 8 
H:PL 9 
H:PL 10 
**H:PL 11 
**H:PL 16-FB 
**H:PL 12 
**H:PL 13 
**H:PL 14 
**H:PL 15 
**H:PL 16 
**H:PL 18 
**H:PL 19 
**H:PL 21 
DRUID 1 

**ALLRED, ERVIL 
**H:PL 17 

ARMAZIEL 
H:PL 7 
** H:PL 10 

**BAILIFF 
**H:PL 15 
**H:PL 18 

**BORDENAVE, JACQUES 
**H:PL 20 

**COFFEE, BRUNO 
**H:PL 2 
**H:PL 13 

CUTTER, JAINE 
**H:PL 12 
**H:PL 13 
**H:PL 14 
**H:PL 15 
**H:PL 16 
**H:PL 18 
**H:PL 19 
**H:PL 20 
**H:PL 21 
TB '00 

**DE MONTESPAN, MARQUISE 
**H:PL 20 

DEATHURGE 
Q 25 
Q 39 
**H:PL 12 
**H:PL 13 
**H:PL 14 
SS/RUNE 

**DECEMBER 
**H:PL 17 

DEVINE, ANTON 
**H:PL 13 
**H:PL 14 
**H:PL 15 
**H:PL 16 
**H:PL 19 
**H:PL 21 
TB '00-FB 

GARGOYLE II/ISAAC CHRISTIANS 
Q 20 
H:PL 3-FB 
H:PL 2 
H:PL 3 
H:PL 7 
H:PL 8 
H:PL 9 
**H:PL 12 
**H:PL 13 
**H:PL 14 
**H:PL 16 
**H:PL 18 
**H:PL 19 
**H:PL 21 

**GUNYON, DET. 
**H:PL 12 
**H:PL 13 
**H:PL 20 
**H:PL 21 

**HECHT, DET. ANNIE 
**H:PL 12 
**H:PL 13 

HELLCAT/PATSY WALKER BAXTER HELLSTROM 
M/FAN 59/2 
H:PL 3-FB 
H:PL 2 
H:PL 3 
H:PL 7 
H:PL 9 
**H:PL 12 
**H:PL 13 
**H:PL 14 
**H:PL 15-BTS 
A3 10 

**INANNA 
**H:PL 15 

**JANUARY 
**H:PL 17 

**JOHANSSEN, DUST 
**H:PL 13 
**H:PL 14 

**KILBURN, CAMERON 
**H:PL 12 
**H:PL 13 

**LAVOISIN/CATHERINE DESHAYES 
**H:PL 20-FB 

**LAVOISIN II 
**H:PL 20 

**LEE, INGENUITY 
**H:PL 12 

**LOSS, STEPHEN 
**H:PL 20/2-FB 
**H:PL 15 
**H:PL 16 
**H:PL 19 
**H:PL 20/2 
**H:PL 21 

ROSETTI, GABRIEL 
MU 11 
HOH 2 
**H:PL 5-FB 
FF 222 
FF 223 
M/CP 106/4 
H:PL 1 
H:PL 2 
H:PL 7 
H:PL 8 
H:PL 9 
H:PL 10 

**H:PL 12 
**H:PL 13 
**H:PL 14 
**H:PL 18 
**H:PL 20 
**H:PL 21 

SATAN/"MARDUK KURIOS"/"BEELZEBOUL" 
TER 5 
H:PL 3-FB 
H:PL 1 
H:PL 5 
**H:PL 11 
**H:PL 16-FB 
**H:PL 20-BTS 

SATANA 
M/TU 81 
H:PL 7-BTS 
H:PL 10 
**H:PL 12 
**H:PL 20 
**H:PL 21 

SHAITAN, AL 
H:PL 1 
H:PL 2 
**H:PL 13 

SIEGEL, DR. AVRAM 
H:PL 1 
H:PL 4 
H:PL 7 
H:PL 8 
H:PL 9 
**H:PL 12 

**SOMNAMBULIST 
**H:PL 17 

**TZADQIEL 
**H:PL 19 

**WEGENER, JAKITA 
**H:PL 14 

**WINTERGARDEN, JACK 
**H:PL 15 

**ZAHGURIM 
**H:PL 12 
**H:PL 14 

**ZAHGURIM'S DEMON 
**H:PL 12 
**H:PL 14

Last edited by michel on 15 May 2004 05:27 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 14 May 2004 09:11 pm    Post subject: Inanna is same as Ishtar
By Enda80

Inanna is actually a variant name for Ishtar. Ishtar was seen earlier in an issue of Conan the Barbarian, and was bts in SSOC 98. So: 

**INANNA/ISHTAR/ALONIA 
**CTB 40 
**SSOC 98/2-BTS 
**H:PL 15

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 May 2004 09:13 pm    Post subject: Ancient One BTs in Somnambulist fb?
By Enda80

Wasn't the Ancient One bts in Somnambualist fb?

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 May 2004 05:24 am    
By michel

I think you talk about that : http://marvunapp.com/Appendix/somnam.htm 

But there is no flashback shown, it's only told. Should it count as a BTS appearance ? Also, Stephen Loss is told having visited the monastery "recently". Is it a BTS appearance too ? 

Michel

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Thread 73

Posted: 15 May 2004 08:07 am    Post subject: Green Lantern/ Silver Surfer (all Marvel characters)
By Jason Doty

This is a lead in to the DC Versus Marvel 

Silver Surfer 
CPU 1 
*GL/SS 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4 
SS/RUNE 

Thanos 
CPU 1 
*GL/SS 
*DCVM 1-BTS 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4 
SMTU 2 

Terrax II 
SS3 97 
*GL/SS 
CPU 5 

I reviewed this issue online to get the charecters and story outline, other than this I have all of the DC/ Marvel Team Ups. Does this work for the Marvel chronology side.

			*	*	*

Thread 74

Posted: 15 May 2004 12:27 pm    Post subject: DC/Marvel All Access
By Jason Doty

I started with the X-Men, and I believe they appear here between UX 338 and UX 339. 

None of the Marvel Heroes that went into the Heroes Reborn universe appear in the series. 

Issue one stars Venom and Spider-Man (This is Spider-Man after Peter Parker returned to being Spider-Man, So it must occur after SENSM 11) 

It also stars Dr. Strange (He is wearing his original uniform) 

Issue 2 Features Wolverine( looking quite feral, no mask), Gambit, and Cyclops (All are working out in the Danger Room), Dr. Strange, Daredevil (Red Uniform), Jubilee, Synch, Husk, Skin (Wearing original Gen X uniforms), And the Scorpion (Wearing a new form of armor) 

Issue 3 features Scorpion, Jubilee, Black Cat, Dr. Strange, Phoenix, Cyclops, Bishop,Iceman, Storm( Storm is wearing her new costume, but it is colered incorrectly), and Cannonball. 

Issue 4 features Cyclops, Iceman, Storm, Phoenix, Bishop, Iceman, Jubilee, Cannonball, and Dr. Strange. 

The series is dated between DEC 96 and FEB 97 

It's cold weather in the whole series. 

Would this fit in this time frame?

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 May 2004 07:38 am    Post subject: Spider-Men
By dimadick

"I started with the X-Men, and I believe they appear here between UX 338 and UX 339." 


"Issue one stars Venom and Spider-Man (This is Spider-Man after Peter Parker returned to being Spider-Man, So it must occur after SENSM 11)" 

I'm afraid your placement doesn't really work. Uncanny X-Men #339, pages 1-5 features a guest appearance by Spider-Man II/ Ben Reilly. 

This opening scene starts in the X-Men mansion at "3:14 AM". Ben has just travelled there from Manhattan. Bishop considers him an intruder and reacts accordingly while Ben fails to recognize him as an X-Man. Their fight is interrupted by the more familiar Beast, Cyclops, "Marvel Girl" and "Wolverine, almost". Ben apparently hasn't been updated in the renaming of Marvel Girl to Phoenix IV and the bestial form of Wolverine. 
He informs the X-Men that J. Jonah Jameson uses the Daily Bugle 's resources to investigate Graydon Creed. His source is "a friend". Phoenix gets a mental image of Peter Parker overhearing Jonah. End of the scene. 

This scene, if not the entire issue, apparently has to be placed before the crossover.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 May 2004 11:57 am
By SeanCurtin

dimadick wrote: 
>>>
I'm afraid your placement doesn't really work. Uncanny X-Men #339, pages 1-5 features a guest appearance by Spider-Man II/ Ben Reilly. 

This opening scene starts in the X-Men mansion at "3:14 AM". Ben has just travelled there from Manhattan. Bishop considers him an intruder and reacts accordingly while Ben fails to recognize him as an X-Man. Their fight is interrupted by the more familiar Beast, Cyclops, "Marvel Girl" and "Wolverine, almost". Ben apparently hasn't been updated in the renaming of Marvel Girl to Phoenix IV and the bestial form of Wolverine. 
He informs the X-Men that J. Jonah Jameson uses the Daily Bugle 's resources to investigate Graydon Creed. His source is "a friend". Phoenix gets a mental image of Peter Parker overhearing Jonah. End of the scene. 
<<<


Peter Parker isn't currently listed as appearing in UX 339. If this isn't a retelling of a scene seen elsewhere, the mental image ought to be placed accordingly as a flashback: 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER PARKER 
SENSM 10 
**UX 339-FB 
S-M 73 

Likewise, Jameson's appearance in the flashback needs to be put into his chronology just before UX 339. 

-Sean

Last edited by SeanCurtin on 16 May 2004 04:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 16 May 2004 01:23 pm    Post subject: DC/ Marvel: All Access (Marvel character placement)
By Jason Doty

I've tried to narrow down the appearances and this is what I've come up with. 

Venom 
V:TC 3 
*DC/M:AA 1 
V:OT 1 

Spider-Man 
S-M 78 
*DC/M:AA 1 
XM 26-(F/B) 

Dr. Strange 
ASMU 15 
*DC/M:AA 1 
*DC/M:AA 2 
*DC/M:AA 3 
*DC/M:AA 4 
ELEK 4 

Cyclops 
M/VS 1/5 
*DC/M:AA 2 
*DC/M:AA 3 
*DC/M:AA 4 
X '96 

Wolverine 
UX 340 
*DC/M:AA 2 
X '96 

Gambit 
UX 340 
*DC/M:AA 2 
X'96 

Daredevil 
TB '97-(F/B) 
*DC/M:AA 2 
DD 352 

Jubilee 
GEN X 22 
*DC/M:AA 2 
*DC/M:AA 3 
*DC/M:AA 4 
X '96 

Synch 
GENX '96 
*DC/M:AA 2 
X '96 

Husk 
GENX '96 
*DC/M:AA 2 
X '96 

Skin 
GENX '96 
*DC/M:AA 2 
X '96 

Scorpion 
ASMU 13 
*DC/M:AA 2 
*DC/M:AA 3 
ASMU 22 

Black Cat 
SENSM 7 
*DC/M:AA 3 
SENSM 29 

Iceman 
UX 340 
*DC/M:AA 3 
*DC/M:AA 4 
X '96 

Phoenix IV 
M/VS 1/5 
*DC/M:AA 3 
*DC/M:AA 4 
X '96 

Storm 
UX 340 
*DC/M:AA 3 
*DC/M:AA 4 
X '96 

Bishop 
X 59 
*DC/M:AA 3 
*DC/M:AA 4 
X '96 

Cannonball II 
UX 340 
*DC/M:AA 3 
*DC/M:AA 4 
X '96 

The X-men must appear here because it is after 339 (which stars the Ben Reily, Spider-Man, and before Gambit goes to space in UX 342) 

That made Generation X's appearance most likely to occur just before they are in X '96, which would place them around New York. 

It must also occur before Iceman goes on his leave of absence, which he announces in UX 340, but before he leaves in X'96 

Spider-Man has to be back in his old costume. So' after UX 339 and before UX 346. By Using his appearences in XM, I took an educated guess of where to place his appearance. 

See if these placements work for the characters, and we'll keep pushing along.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 May 2004 05:06 pm    Post subject: Another Error on my part
By Jason Doty

Daredevil should be 

Daredevil 
TM/U 1 
*DC/M:AA 2 
V:OT 1 

Dr.Strange should be 

Dr.Strange 
TM/U 1 
*DC/M:AA 1 
*DC/M:AA 2 
*DC/M:AA 3 
*DC/M:AA 4 
XU 12

			*	*	*

Thread 75

Posted: 20 May 2004 06:09 am    Post subject: Set in CTB I#147-issue analy
By Enda80

CTB I47 

Published: June 1983 

Written By Bruce Jones, Drawn by John Buscema 

Appearances: 
Conan (last seen in CTB I#146, next in CTB I#148) 
Pelija Lon (last seen in CTB I#139, no further appearances) 
C'harona (first and only known appearance) 
Revelle Lon (in fb to CTB I#139) 
Set (bts; last in ASM@ 23/4-FB, next in PUN2@ 2/4) 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/ishiti.htm 

Brief Syopsis: Conan rides to the town of D'eim, to find Pelija Lon, an old acquaintance. He discovers that she has been enslaved by C'harona, a woman who serves Set. Later C'harona manages to free rat demons that serve Set from the Earth. Set then transforms C'harona into a harpy. C'harona is slain. 


References: According to Conan Saga articles, between #146 and #148 

Flashback sequence 

1. Conan, Pelija Lon, Revelle Lon 
2. A summary of events already depicted in issues #134 and #138-139 
3. events in #134 and #139 

So, Set's Chronology should now go: 

SET 
........... 
ASM@ 23/4-FB 
DD@ 5/4-FB 
**CTB 147-BTS 
**PUN2@ 2/4 
A@ 18/4-FB 
NM@ 5/3-FB

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Thread 76

Posted: 19 May 2004 08:44 pm    Post subject: Spider-Man/Dr. Strange Graphic Novel
By SeanCurtin

SPIDER-MAN/DOCTOR STRANGE: THE WAY TO DUSTY DEATH Graphic Novel (1992) 

Synposis: Spider-Man saves the suicidal Melinda Morrison (Xandu's love interest) from some demons; he teams up with Dr. Strange to protect her. The demons are being sent by Xandu, who possesses Spider-Man's body and uses the Wand of Watoomb to open a portal to the Death Dimension. The Wand is destroyed (for now), and it is revealed that Melinda is actually dead. She becomes the ruler of the Death Dimension, and Xandu is returned to Earth. 

Chronological notes: 
* Occurs on the anniversary of Gwen Stacy's death. 
* Clea is not present (so probably during her journey to the Dark Dimension from DRSTR@ 2/5 to DRSTR3 48). 
* Rintrah is still Strange's pupil. 
* Spider-Man does not recognize Rintrah. 

I've tenatively placed this shortly before IW 1. 

Characters appearing: 
Spider-Man 
Melinda Morrison 
Dr. Strange 
Wong 
Rintrah 
Xandu 
unnamed death demons (two of which impersonate Gwen Stacy and Uncle Ben) 

Characters in flashback: 
Xandu, Melinda Morrison (retelling of M/TU 21-FB; Melinda also in -fb after her last appearance) 


Updated character chronologies: 

DR. STRANGE/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 
DRSTR3 41 
**SMDSGN 
IW 1 

**MORRISON, MELINDA 
M/TU 21-FB 
{M/TU 21} 
M/FAN 6 
SMDSGN-FB 
SMDSGN 

RINTRAH 
DRSTR3 40 
**SMDSGN 
DRSTR3 42 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER PARKER 
WOSM 90 
**SMDSGN 
IW 1 

WONG 
DRSTR3 41 
**SMDSGN 
DRSTR3 46 

XANDU 
M/FAN 21 
**SMDSGN

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 May 2004 10:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

A few thoughts... 

I have a feeling that, since there is some leeway here, the anniversary of Gwen Stacy's death will nail down the final chronological placement, and a calendar may help here. (Does this graphic novel occur within a single day?) ASM 121-122 (Gwen's death) occurred in February. My initial extension of the MU calendar back from the recent past includes a preliminary placement of the Infinity War in the summer, five MU years ago. I wonder if this graphic novel might occur a bit earlier than just before IW. 

As far as Spidey goes, I would think that his last appearances before IW 1 would be DHAWK 19-20, SLEEP 17, and S-M 24. IIRC, there was tight continuity between SLEEP 17, S-M 24, and IW 1, and SLEEP 17 followed right on the heels of DHAWK 20. I wouldn't place another story in there. (BTW, I'm stumped by the inclusion of WOSM 90 between SLEEP 17 and S-M 24 in Spidey's MCP listing. I would think that there's no time for WOSM 90 to happen here and would place that story before DHAWK 19.)
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 May 2004 11:09 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I have a feeling that, since there is some leeway here, the anniversary of Gwen Stacy's death will nail down the final chronological placement, and a calendar may help here. (Does this graphic novel occur within a single day?) ASM 121-122 (Gwen's death) occurred in February. My initial extension of the MU calendar back from the recent past includes a preliminary placement of the Infinity War in the summer, five MU years ago. I wonder if this graphic novel might occur a bit earlier than just before IW. 
<<<


The whole GN necessarily occurs in the space of less than an hour. My main reason for including it priopr to IW 1 (aside from having a definite shared reference point for Spidey and Doc's chronologies) was Clea's non-presence; her departure occurs shortly prior to the Infinity War crossover, and I felt that that was as good a reason as any for her to be the only member of Doc's supporting cast to not be present. 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
As far as Spidey goes, I would think that his last appearances before IW 1 would be DHAWK 19-20, SLEEP 17, and S-M 24. IIRC, there was tight continuity between SLEEP 17, S-M 24, and IW 1, and SLEEP 17 followed right on the heels of DHAWK 20. I wouldn't place another story in there. (BTW, I'm stumped by the inclusion of WOSM 90 between SLEEP 17 and S-M 24 in Spidey's MCP listing. I would think that there's no time for WOSM 90 to happen here and would place that story before DHAWK 19.) 
<<<


So, assuming for the moment that the GN stays in its current general time frame: 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER PARKER 
NW@ 2 
**SMDSGN 
*WOSM 90 
DHAWK 19 
DHAWK 20 
SLEEP 17 
(WOSM 90 moved) 
S-M 24 
IW 1 

Correct? 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2004 07:08 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER PARKER 
NW@ 2 
**SMDSGN 
*WOSM 90 
DHAWK 19 
DHAWK 20 
SLEEP 17 
(WOSM 90 moved) 
S-M 24 
IW 1 

Correct? 
 


You do reflect my wish to move WOSM 90 before DHAWK 19, but the placement of SMDSGN may end up a bit earlier, based on calendar reference. Clea's absence in a story that lasts an hour doesn't necessarily mean she was in some other dimension. Maybe she was shopping or something. Unless there's a specific reference to Clea's whereabouts, I wouldn't use her absence as the governing clue for placement. 

If we want to assign a temporary chronological spot for SMDSGN for the sake of not losing track of its existence, then I suppose it's okay where you have it, although any number of places may be appropriate. For example, from Spidey's perspective, if calendar references are accurate (and that's a bif "if"), then the February anniversary of Gwen Stacy's death in SMDSGN would occur sometime between the Christmas of PPTSS 175 and the "spring" setting of PPTSS 176 -- maybe the same "February" as Q 21. 

Like I said, my current calendar work is going back as far as Infinity War, so it's way too early to figure out where SMDSGN would go if a calendar approach is called for.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2004 02:08 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
You do reflect my wish to move WOSM 90 before DHAWK 19, but the placement of SMDSGN may end up a bit earlier, based on calendar reference. Clea's absence in a story that lasts an hour doesn't necessarily mean she was in some other dimension. Maybe she was shopping or something. Unless there's a specific reference to Clea's whereabouts, I wouldn't use her absence as the governing clue for placement. 
<<<


Fair enough. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 77

Posted: 20 May 2004 10:22 pm    Post subject: Newbie Question
By scott

I'm new to the site and newer still to the boards. In reading the explanations of book analysis, I was intrigued... Where is this information on the site? Can you search by comic instead of character? Is there a place where you can find say all of the characters that appeared in Thunderbolts 25? Or do you have to look up each character individually to see if they appeared in that issue? Is the analysis information on the site somewhere or is it just used to place the characters and then discarded? Just curious. Still learning my way around... 

Thanks.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2004 10:37 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

scott wrote: 
>>>
I'm new to the site and newer still to the boards. In reading the explanations of book analysis, I was intrigued... Where is this information on the site? Can you search by comic instead of character? Is there a place where you can find say all of the characters that appeared in Thunderbolts 25? 
<<<


Yes. On the home page, click on the link near the top of the page that says "Search the MCP." One of the options is to list all the characters who appear in a particular book. You have to know the code for that book, which can be found on the Key. The code for Thunderbolts is TB. 

scott wrote: 
>>>
Is the analysis information on the site somewhere or is it just used to place the characters and then discarded? Just curious. Still learning my way around... 
<<<


The analysis information can be found in three places, depending on the age. Recent analyses (back to February), are found here, in the Issue Analysis forum. Analyses from early February back to October 2003 are on the old Posting Board. Older analyses are in the Archives. 


watching: jay leno

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Thread 78

Posted: 22 May 2004 05:42 pm    Post subject: Uncany Origins 1 - non-cannon
By Dhall

Ive written up Uncanny Origins 1 featuring Cyclops. I was hoping that this one would be canonical (as all of the other UO issues that I have read are.) What I have found instead, is that there are some major problems with this issue conflicting with Classic X-Men 41/2 and 42/2 that make it hard to believe this issue is canonical. It doesnt really contradict anything in UX 38/2-42/2, however the retold scenes dont add anything. 
There are a few pages that would be considered new in this issue, BUT some of them offer us major contradictions between established cannon and this issue. 

In Classic X-Men 41/2 and 42/2, Dr. Robyn Hanover is the new doctor at the orphanage, and has never met Scott before (and indeed has never even heard of Alex.) 
In UO 1, she is the administrator of the orphanage, and takes Scott and Alex back to the orphanage from the hospital after the crash. 
This alone would cause me to want to throw this issue out, as it is irreconcilable with established cannon. 

Also it is pretty well established that Scott spent a year in a coma after the crash, during which time Alex was adopted. In, UO 1 both brothers are at the orphanage, until Alex is adopted. There is no mention of the year spent in a coma. Instead, Scott wakes up and is taken to the orphanage with Alex right away. 

Some of this could be accommodated, but only by changing some of the things that we already know about the situation. 

Verdict : Uncanny Origins 1  not cannon 

(I did find a few things in the MCP that need to be changed, or added, but Ill do that in the Main analysis thread.) 

Dave H 

(UO 1:Page 1: Splash Page) 

UO 1: Page 2: Just South of Cape Yakataga, Alaska In the plane, the Summers family talk about how Christopher is going to go up in space soon. Then an alien spaceship appears, shoots, and hits the fuselage. 

UO 1: Page 3: Panel 1: Christopher Summers radios for help, and tells Kate to get herself and the kids into parachutes. 

UO 1: Page 3: Panel 2: Kate tells Christopher that there is only one parachute. 

UO 1: Page 3: Panel 3: Kate puts the parachute on Scott, who asks how she and his dad will get down. Alex hugs Kate. 

UO 1: Page 3: Panel 4: Kate tells Scott that theyre not, and kisses him. 

UO 1: Page 3: Panel 5: Kate pushes the boys out of the aircraft, and tells them that their parents will always love them. 

UO 1: Page 4: Panel 1: The parachute is open, and on fire. The plane can be seen with smoke coming out of it. Alex holds onto Scott and says that he wants his mommy and daddy. 

UO 1:Page 4: panel 2-3: Scott lies to Alex, and tells him that theyll see mommy and daddy soon, to comfort him. 

UO 1: Page 4: Panel 4: Rescuers on the ground, spot the kids with binoculars. 

UO 1: Page 4: Panel 5: We see the parachutes going down past the tree line, while the rescuers watch. 

UO 1: Page 5: The boys are rushed to the hospital, and rush Scott into the O.R., due to his cerebral edema. It is a miracle that he survives. 

UO 1: Page 6:Panels 1-2:Later, at the hospital. Dr. Robyn Hanover from the orphanage, comes to talk to the doctor about the boys. 

UO 1: Page 6: Panels 3-5: Dr. Hanover takes the boys to the orphanage. It is kind of creepy. Nathan (Sinister) spies them through the window. 

UO 1: Page 7: Scott and Alex play baseball outside the orphanage, while Nathan(Sinister) watches them. Scott has some kind of headache attack. Alex runs towards Scott, yelling for Dr. Robyn Hanover to come quickly. Scotts eyes are glowing, which both Alex and Nathan notice. 

UO 1: Page 8: Scott gets an eye exam, and gets ruby quartz glasses. 

UO 1: page 9: Panel 1: Alex has been adopted, and waves to Scott as he is driven away in a car. 

UO 1: Page 9: Panels 2-5: Scott is sad as he waves, but Nathan (Sinister) comes over, puts his hand on Scotts shoulder, and tells him that Alex comes from inferior genetic stock, and holds nowhere the potential you posses. Scott, not comforted by this, just thinks that Nathan is a weird kid. 

UO 1: Page 10: Months Pass Scott and Nathan (Sinister) have become friends (and roommates at the orphanage.) Scott tells Nathan about Rick and Trish, the couple who is planning to adopt Scott. Nathan Says that he wont let anyone take Scott. He tells Scott to stop deluding himself that he can ever be normal. 

UO 1: Page 11: The following morning Rick and Trish go up in their plane, which explodes, killing them both. Underneath the orphanage, in his secret lair, Mr. Sinister watches on a monitor, and laughs. 

UO 1: Page 12: Washington D.C. Mr. Lamb is taking Scott to New York City (by bus) to see some specialists about his condition. Scott wonders about this, given that the Bogarts are supposed to pick him up and adopt him this week. Mr. Lamb tells Scott about the accident. Scott runs away and hides at the bus terminal. 

UO 1: Page 13: That night, at FBI headquarters Fred Duncan and his partner, Bill Ross watch a film of Scott Summers shooting an eye beam, and pulverizing a steel crate. They realize that the boy is a mutant, and talk about calling the national guard. At that moment, Professor Xavier shows up in his wheelchair, and uses his telepathy to freeze the two FBI agents. He apologizes, and then introduces himself. 

UO 1: Page 14: About 50 miles from our nations capital Scott has escaped the city, by hitching a ride on a boxcar on a train. He is worried that the mob will catch up with him. He runs into the woods, and finds a clearing, where two bums are cooking hotdogs over a fire. They want to steal Scotts money. The cops show up, and the bums run off. 

UO 1: Page 15: The cops grab Scott, and realize that he is the boy with the mutant powers. There is an APB out for him. They want to bring him in, but his glasses fall off. Scott, unable to control his powers fire his optic blasts, and the cops run off. Scott grabs his glasses, and put them back on. But then he hears a telepathic call from a nearby shack. (From Jack Winters) 

UO 1: Page 16: Panel 1: Scott enters the shack, Jack Winters introduces himself. 
UO 1: Page 16: Panel 2: The cops come back, and are outside the shack, they want Scott to come out. 
UO 1: Page 16: Panel 3: Jack uses his teleportation powers to get him and Scott out of there. 
UO 1: Page 16: Panel 4: They hitch a ride on a train. 
UO 1: Page 16: Panels 5-6: Back in Westchester County, at the mansion, Professor Xavier uses Cyberno to detect both Scott and Jack Winters, who is a mutant unknown to the Professor. 

UO 1: Page 17: About 50 miles due North of Westchester Scott and Jack Winters have broken into a nuclear facility. Jack explains that he got his powers when he tried to steal some radioactive material from the plant. And that he is now called Jack O Diamonds He shows Scott that his hands are now made of diamond. Professor Xavier appears on the scene to save Scott. Jack orders Scott to attack him with his optic blasts. 

UO 1: Page 18: Xavier tells them that he is here to help them. Scott refuses to shoot him. Jack grabs Scott and they run off. The security guards show up. Scott shoots the gun out of one of the guards hand, because he knows that Jack would kill the guard, if he didnt do it. Jack runs off. Scott uses his beam to turn over a car full of guards, who want to grab him. 

UO 1: Page 19:Panels 1-4: All of a sudden, the guards fall unconscious. Xavier telepathically introduces himself to Scott, and offers to have him come to the school. 

UO 1: Page 19: Panel 1- Page 20:Jack is in the cyclotron, he has used the machine to turn his entire body to diamond. He calls himself the Living Diamond. Scott and Xavier use their powers to blast him. Jack falls unconscious. Xavier wants to use the machine to revert him back to his original form. 

UO 1: Page 21: Jack wakes up, and attacks them. Xavier tells Scott to activate the Vibrating Inducer. Scott does so and the vibrations rip Jack apart. Xavier tells Scott not to blame himself. If Jack had worked with them, they could have saved his life. Xavier offers to take Scott back to the mansion with him. 

UO 1: Page 22: The following morning After making certain arrangements with Fred Duncan, Scott is remanded to Xaviers custody. The both ride in a limo through Sale Center, then to the mansion. Scott still thinks about being normal, while Xavier hopes that he can realize his dream of peaceful co-existence.

			*	*	*

Thread 79

Posted: 22 May 2004 10:15 am    Post subject: SUPERMAN/ FANTASTIC FOUR (Marvel Character Placement)
By Jason Doty

Okay this one takes place after Heroes Return 
The FF are living on the docks, and they have returned to wearing thier just prior to Onslaught Uniforms. 

Mr. Fantastic 
ASM2 4 
*SUP/FF 
FF3 13 

Invisable Woman 
ASM2 
*SUP/FF 
FF3 13 

Human Torch II 
ASM2 4 
*SUP/FF 
FF3 13 

Thing 
ASM2 4 
*SUP/FF 
FF3 13 

Caledonia 
FF3 12 
*SUP/FF-BTS 
FF3 13 

Galactus 
I don't read to much FF, but the story starts in the past with Galactus viewing the destruction of Krypton from the Marvel Universe. I have no idea where to place this. 

Galactus 
W2 138 
*SUP/FF 
GAL 1

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 May 2004 11:46 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Jason, I have to confess I know nothing about this crossover comic. I'm assuming that you're considering it canon because it involves Superman and the FF living in different universes. 

Would you do an issue analysis? The FF living at Pier 4 and the nature of their costumes are definitely clues to placement, but they don't necessarily narrow it to precisely where you have it, between ASM2 14 and FF3 13. I actually have FF3 13 occurring on the same night as ASM2 14; unfortunately both the Valentine's Day reference in the former and the autumn reference in the latter are topical. 

A summary of the plot and notations of temporal references in SUP/FF would help. Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 22 May 2004 01:36 pm    Post subject: Superman/ Fantastic Four analyzed
By Jason Doty

Superman/ Fantastic Four (1999, DC Comics) 
Dan Jurgens (Story and Layouts) and Art Thibert (Finished Art) 
Title: The Infinate Destruction 

In the DC Universes Past 
Galactas is observing the destruction of Krypton, which has little interest to him, except for a lone occupant of a space craft, that he might find useful one day, He sends a tracking probe to keep track of it. (I assume he is watching from the Marvel Universe, because the probe comes through a portal in the next scene. 

DC Universe the Present 
The probe enters the DC Universe and sends something toward the Earth, it is intercepted by a dark figure. (Cyborg Superman) 

In Metropolis a mysterous looking item is in the middle of the street, and a Metropolis hazmat team is trying to move people along whaen Superman arrives. Superman says it's a bomb and melts the detonator, then he hears theb terrorists that are trying to still detonate it and rushes to capture them. As he confronts them he is momentarily confused when the object from the probe appears out of nowhere. He thinks it looks Kryptonian in nature. Just then a vision of his father appears to him from the crystal. He explains to Superman that he believed Krypton's destruction was from natural causes, but before the planet was destroyed he found out that Galactus was inhancing the process and asks Superman to avenge them. He says he's heard wispers of Galactas from the other universe, and he must find Access. (It's a sunny day in Metropolis) 

The Marvel Universe 
At pier four Franklin Richards is playing with his DC and Marvel toys and watching the Superman cartoon. He talks about how his mother said that in another universe Superman is real. He goes into the lab to tell the Thing what he missed in the cartoon. There the FF are working on an experiment and Reed says that it's too dangerous for Franklin and has the Invisible Woman escort him out. After escorting him out, she notices that the buildings defense systems are offline. Just then Superman walks in. She takes Superman into see Reed and Superman says he needs to speak to him regarding Galactis. Superman says that Galactis has been in his universe according to this communication crystal he is holding. Just then the crystal starts to glow and an energy spike heads into the machinery. All of the FF's defenses go online and start attacking everyone. As the FF and Superman defend themselves a beam shot from a ship outside of the building grabs Superman. The Human Torch goes after him. Superman realizes that the design is much like that of Galactis's ships. Just then machine parts start coming together to form a being. It's the Cyborg Superman. The Invisible Woman. the Thing, and Mr. Fantastic battle the Cyborg. 

Chapter Two: The Power Cosmic 
The Human Torch tries to intercept the ship when Superman comes out. Inside the ship, Superman is being altered by Galactis. The Cyborg Superman rushes out and says "No. Take me instead," but is blocked by the Invisible Woman. The Human Torch and Mr. Fantastic approach teh now transformed Superman who has been infused with the Power Cosmic. Mr. Fantastic grabs a hold of Superman and they both disappear. The Invisible woman has the Cyborg Superman in a force field. She cuts a deal with him to help the other FF members get to wherever Reed and Superman have been taken. 

Superman and Reed arrive on Galactis' ship where Reed tries to convince Superman to fight galactis. He seems to waver slightly, but doesn't and Galactis makes him his most powerful herald ever. Reed tries to stop Superman, but Superman sends him away and heads into space. Then Reed tries to reason with Galactis. 

Back on Earth the Cyborg Superman is modifying and FF ship to go into space. The Invisible Woman tells Franklin that he'll be staying with Caledonia and that they'll be back soon. They all take off for space. 

In space, the Superman Herald finds a planet for Glactis to devour. Galactis comes and sts up his giant round feeding machine. The Superman Herald tells Galactis to hold because they are not alone. The FF and the Cyborg Superman arrive at the planet. The Superman Herald fights the FF. Galactis starts to feed and the Cyborg Superman suggests that they should leave or end up dying. They all retreat as Galactis feeds. After the destruction of the planet the Superman Herald feels that something is wrong. Galactis tells him to go find another living world. 

Chapter Three: Scorge 

The FF and the Cyborg Superman track the Superman Herald. When they catch up to him Galactis is about to feed on another world. Superman asks what will happen to all of the people on this planet. The FF believe they must stop the Superman Herald in order to stop Galactis. The Superman Herald switches sides. Galactis blasts the Superman Herald. As the FF try to hold off Galactis the Cyborg superman is trying to learn the secrets of Galactis's ship. Mr. Fantastic, who was recently freed from his prison, tries to stop the Cyborg Superman. He is taken down, but rescued by the Thing. The Superman Herald reverts back to Superman. Utilizing Reed's intellect and Superman's strength and speed, they are able to disrupt Galactis's machine. It causes Galactis to lose energy. Superman and the Fantastic Four then barter with Galactis, but Superman says that he still must pay for the destruction of Crypton. Galactis said he had nothing to do with it and that the crystal he recieved contained no such information. The FF figure out that it was the Cyborg Superman who altered the crystal. The Cyborg superman breaks free of their control and asks Galactis to endow him with the Power Cosmic and make him perfect. Galactis turns him into a solid square of metal. The FF and Superman return back to Earth to Pier Four where they are greeted by Franklin. Superman leaves Franklin's cape and says that he must return home to his own universe. 

Here's your analysis. I hope it's helpful. The story is not contained in a comic sized book, but something slightly larger than a treasury addition.

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Posted: 22 May 2004 04:18 pm
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks for the analysis, Jason. 

Pier 4, Caledonia, and the costumes place this story after FF3 12 (cover date: Dec 1998). Agreed. 

There seem to be no MU references to weather, seasons, events, or the passage of time since specific plotlines. 

Okay, let's consider publication order. What month in 1999 did SUP/FF come out?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 23 May 2004 02:34 am 
By Peter Fabricius

The book doesn't have anything more than a 1999 date, but I have it listed as being published arond the same time as Marvel's May 1999 coverdates, so around the time of FF #17
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: 23 May 2004 09:35 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Publication order falls flat again. There's really no decent way to work SUP/FF into the FF's chronology between FF3 13 and 22. 

I think that placing SUP/FF sometime between FF3 12 and 13 is indeed the way to go. My tentative calendar for this time period places a few months between FF3 12 and ASM2 4/FF3 13. I suggest that SUP/FF go in that gap. The sequence would read: 

FF3 12 
SUP/FF 
ASM2 4 
FF3 13 

Oh, and don't forget Franklin Richards in the character list.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 80

Posted: 22 May 2004 10:30 am    Post subject: Access's placement
By Jason Doty

Access is a native to the Marvel Universe 

Access/Axel Asher 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3 
*DSF 1 (Doctor Strange Fate no.1) 
*DCVM 4 
*DC/M:AA 1 
*DC/M:AA 2 
*DC/M:AA 3 
*DC/M:AA 4 
*UA 1 
*GL3 87 (Green Lantern vol.3 no.87, DC) 
*UA 1 
*UA 2 
*UA 3 
*UA 4 
*SUP/FF-BTS

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 May 2004 11:14 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

More Access chronology notes: 

Just prior to UA #1, Access managed to "sort out that whole Spider-Man / Batman / Kingpin / Ra's Al Ghul mess". Is this a reference to 1997's "Batman / Spider-Man"? Does Access appear in that book? Are there any hints that he's BTS there? If so, it should go between DC/M:AA #4 and UA #1 in his chronology. 

Plus there's Morty the bum, revealed to be an (alternate?) future version of Access: 

ACCESS II / AXEL ASHER II / "MORTY" 
UA 2 
DCvM 1 
DCvM 2 
DCvM 3 
DCvM 4 

Then the evil alternate-future version of Access that was working with Darkseid... 

ACESS III / AXEL ASHER III 
UA 2 
UA 3 
UA 4 

...who our Access amalgamates himself with, creating a technically new and different Access... 

ACCESS IV / AXEL ASHER IV (amalgam of Access I and III) 
UA 4 

And, finally, does Access actually *appear* BTS in Superman / Fantastic Four? I had thought he was just mentioned, but if he actually does put in a BTS appearance, it would be an appearance by the new, amalgamated Access -- number IV. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 May 2004 03:37 pm
By Peter Fabricius

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And, finally, does Access actually *appear* BTS in Superman / Fantastic Four? I had thought he was just mentioned, but if he actually does put in a BTS appearance, it would be an appearance by the new, amalgamated Access -- number IV. 
>>>


He is just mentioned by Superman. I skimmed through the issues, and couldn't find him. 
Technically we don't even know if it was Access who transported Superman to Earth-Marvel, just that Superman went looking for him.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 May 2004 07:30 pm    
By Jason Doty

First to adress whether he's in Sup/FF or not is not relevant. The only way known (and I stress known), by the heroes is Access. They seem to forget over time, and the only reason (and i'm taking a guess) Superman remembers is a: proximity to the other cross-overs, and b: He's not human. It hurts nothing to assume that Access teleported Superman to the Marvel Universe, especially since a: he went looking for him, and b: Access left for the DCU at the end of Unlimited Access. I doubt he went looking for Mr. Myxlplex or what ever his name is since the Silver Surfer/ Superman crossover. 

As for the Batman/ Spider-man plug, in All Access. I've set that aside for right now. The theory I'm working with on that one is there is a Marvel/DC Universe out there, and Access traveled to that, or we might be abile to say that at certain places in history he merged the two, temporarily similar to the events we see in his chronal fever dream, while traveling through time. Anyway we could say alot of things, but lets just work from universe to universe for now.

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Posted: 22 May 2004 10:50 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Hmm. Something I just thought of: 

Since we meet Morty the bum before we met Axel, should Morty be "Access" and Axel be "Access II"? 

As for Superman/FF: 

Quote: 
>>>
First to adress whether he's in Sup/FF or not is not relevant. 
<<<

What? Of course it's relevant! 

Quote: 
>>>
It hurts nothing to assume that Access teleported Superman to the Marvel Universe 
<<<

Well, sure. Given that Superman stated his intent to go find Access so he could get to the MU -- then he turns up in the MU -- it's pretty safe to connect the dots and assume Superman found Access. 

(Remember, this'd be Access IV -- the amalgamated version.)  

Quote: 
>>>
They seem to forget over time, and the only reason (and i'm taking a guess) Superman remembers is a: proximity to the other cross-overs, and b: He's not human. 
<<<

Spider-Man seemed to remember Access just fine in UA #1. Maybe, sometimes, people just don't forget? (Or, something else -- see below.) 

Quote: 
>>>
As for the Batman/ Spider-man plug, in All Access. I've set that aside for right now. The theory I'm working with on that one is there is a Marvel/DC Universe out there, and Access traveled to that 
<<<

So, uh, what you're trying to say here is -- the "Spider-Man - Batman - Kingpin - Ra's Al Ghul" line in UA #1 DOES refer to "Batman/Spider-Man" -- however, "Batman/Spider-Man" takes place on that weird non-canon earth where the DC and Marvel characters co-exist, and always have. 

I wouldn't want to posit, as you suggested, that a THIRD Earth is out there where all the Marvel and DC characters live together in harmony -- mainly because, if that's the natural state of that world ... what would the "mess" Access referred to have been? He handles "crossover clean-up", that's all. 

His line is a fairly good indicator that SOMEthing just happened with those characters ... the REAL versions of those characters. If not the events of Batman/Spider-Man, then they should all at least get BTS' for this issue. 

(Another clue is that, in UA #1, Spider-Man *remembers Access*. As you say, that shouldn't happen -- people generally forget Access, OVER TIME. However, in UA #1, Acess had JUST finished sorting out whatever the Batman / Spider-Man mess was ... so perhaps that's why Spidey hadn't forgotten him yet? If so, then the "mess" would have involved the real Spidey.) 

So it's clear that SOMEthing happened -- but that doesn't necessarily mean that *the exact events of "Batman / Spider-Man"* happened. 

I dunno, man. Maybe the worlds DO merge every so often -- resulting in worlds where Marvel and DC co-exist, and think they've always co-existed. Maybe it's a relatively common thing, and it's up to Access (or Morty, whoever) to unravel them. 

That type of "crossover world" did exist briefly during "DC versus Marvel" -- not the actual Amalgam world, and not the characters hopping to the OTHER world -- but a world where both companies' characters lived and interacted. Off the top of my head, there was that scene in #1 where the Kingpin bought the Daily Planet, which was next to Four Freedoms Plaza ... and there was that line in #4 about the worlds "co-existing" but not being fully separated yet. So there's a slim precedent. 

For now, though, I think we should steer way clear. That's a metaphysical discussion for another day. For now let's just give Batman, the Kingpin and Ra's Al Ghul BTS's for UA #1, and later on we can possibly -- POSSIBLY -- change them to full appearances for "Batman/Spider-Man". 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 May 2004 10:58 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Also, the Silver Surfer should get a BTS for UA #1. In the scene where Access mentions his "zig-zagging around the universes", looking for help -- he mentions encountering Green Lantern and the Surfer. 

His meeting GL happened in GL3 #87, as you mentioned -- and his meeting the Surfer was SUPPOSED to have happened in an SS3 issue around that time -- but was nixed for whatever reason. 

So, the Surfer meeting Access now becomes a mere BTS for UA #1 -- presumably occuring in the present day (as in, around the same time UA #1 was published). 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 May 2004 12:04 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Since we meet Morty the bum before we met Axel, should Morty be "Access" and Axel be "Access II"? 
<<<


The question is who was Access first, not necessarily in the order we met them. 


watching: cold case files

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Posted: 23 May 2004 10:46 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

In that case -- what about the two alternate-future Accesses? 

"Morty the bum" is a much older alternate-future Access. And the evil alternate-future Access in UA #4 looks about the same age as our Access. 

Should the evil one be Access II, and Morty be Access III, then, since "Morty" is older and presumably comes from farther in the future? 

I still think the amalgamated version should come after evil-Access -- because, even though he technically exists NOW, prior to the time period the evil alt-future guy comes from, half of him IS the evil alt-future Access -- so technically his chronology would *continue* from evil-Access. 

And since Morty is so much older than either one, he should come last, huh? 

ACCESS / AXEL ASHER 
DCvM 1 
DCvM 2 
DCvM 3 
DSF 
DCvM 4 
DC/M:AA 1 
DC/M:AA 2 
DC/M:AA 3 
DC/M:AA 4 
UA 1 
GL3 87 
UA 1 
UA 2 
UA 3 
UA 4 

ACCESS II / AXEL ASHER II (alt-future) 
UA 2 
UA 3 
UA 4 

ACCESS III / AXEL ASHER III (amalgam of Access I and II) 
UA 4 
SUP/FF -BTS 

ACCESS IV / AXEL ASHER IV / "MORTY" (future) 
UA 2 
DCvM 1 
DCvM 2 
DCvM 3 
DCvM 4 

-Jeph!

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Thread 81

Posted: 23 May 2004 02:31 pm    Post subject: Which moderators are in charge of which books?
By Jason Doty

While trying to do the DC/Marvel crossovers, I've had to reley on other websites for their issue summeries for the books I don't own, which is pretty much anything that's not X-Men related. Now I have a complete X-Men collection except for 1 issue (The X-Men I-Connect Edition), that includes all the branch off books, giveaways, cross-overs, ect... 

My question is who do I address in my posts? 
I know Jeph York and David Hall are the resident X-Men experts, but who focuses on the other Marvel books? 

Also, when utilizing the message board, when the moderators come to a consensus is it then added to the MCP? 

Is there a verification process to find if a post is correct? 

You guys do an awsome job, but being fairly new to accually analyzing issues, Is it easier to post what I've come up with and then debate? 

And on the calender issue, I take it your working backwards? 

After I make the post about the DC/Marvel cross-overs, it would help to know if this works for all characters. So, I can move on to the next issue with a bit more confidance.

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Posted: 23 May 2004 03:24 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
My question is who do I address in my posts? 
I know Jeph York and David Hall are the resident X-Men experts, but who focuses on the other Marvel books? 
<<<

You would normally address the general reading public. While all of the moderators are just like anyone else, in that they have their favorite books, and there are books which they don't read, their general knowledge of the overall Marvel Universe is widespread enough that they can carry on reasonable discussions on just about any character. But again, you shouldn't start out a thread by addressing it to a particular moderator, unless the thread deals with the forums themselves, or the MCP itself, rather than chronologies, or comics, or characters. 

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Also, when utilizing the message board, when the moderators come to a consensus is it then added to the MCP? 
<<<


Well, the "moderators" are just that: they moderate the boards. They make sure that people stay on topic. They move, edit, or delete posts, as needed. It just so happens that the moderators are also Directors, and Directors are more concerned with the big picture. Do we branch off 2013 characters into their own page? That would be an issue for the Directors. Does Iron Man 65 occur before or after Avengers 69? Directors opinions here count only a little bit more than the casual visitor, because they've previously shown their extensive knowledge. One thing that's common among Directors, though: they're not closed-minded. State your case well, and you might be able to convince them to change their minds. 

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Is there a verification process to find if a post is correct? 
<<<


The forums themselves can serve as a verification process. There are enough knowledgeable minds on the forums that if your post is incorrect, you'll be called on it. 

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Is it easier to post what I've come up with and then debate? 
<<<


As opposed to...? 

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
And on the calender issue, I take it your working backwards? 
<<<


Left for Paul B. 


watching: angel

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Posted: 23 May 2004 03:26 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I have a complete X-Men collection except for 1 issue (The X-Men I-Connect Edition) 
<<<

What's that? I've never heard of that book ... Dave Hall's and my ears just perked up. 

Quote: 
>>>
that includes all the branch off books, giveaways, cross-overs, ect... 
<<<

Giveaways? Even the "Spider-Man and Skids" NCPCA comic? Everyone learns a valuable lesson in that one, you know. 

Quote: 
>>>
who do I address in my posts? 
<<<

I'd say "the group at large". Every post is open for general discussion and comments by anyone -- if anyone has a question, comment, or correction, they can chime on in -- there's no need to specifically address, say, me. 

Quote: 
>>>
I know Jeph York and David Hall are the resident X-Men experts 
<<<

And Paul O'Brien. Don't forget good old Paul O'Brien. 

Quote: 
>>>
who focuses on the other Marvel books? 
<<<

Good question ... Sean Kleefeld is your go-to FF guy, but he's busy finishing grad school or night school or clown college or somesuch, so he's not around too much. Paul Bourcier's a jack-of-all-trades and (I think) a big Avengers guy. John McDonough handles all sorts of Hyborian age and magical nonsense that the rest of us wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. And somebody likes Spidey, but I can't remember who.  

Oh, and Russ knows all. 

Quote: 
>>>
when utilizing the message board, when the moderators come to a consensus is it then added to the MCP? 
<<<

I think it goes something like -- if a correction or opinion goes unchallenged for a month or so, in it goes. 

Quote: 
>>>
Is there a verification process to find if a post is correct? 
<<<

Not as such -- just ask for someone else's input if you're unsure of something. 

Quote: 
>>>
being fairly new to accually analyzing issues, Is it easier to post what I've come up with and then debate? 
<<<

As opposed to ... what? Yeah, that's a good system -- post your write-up and chronology placement suggestions, and let the vultures descend. 

Quote: 
>>>
on the calender issue, I take it your working backwards? 
<<<

Some of us aren't working on it at all.  

Hope that answered either all or none of your questions ... I still need to find the time to pick your Unlimited Access review to complete tatters. Soon enough, soon enough... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 May 2004 03:37 pm    Post subject: The X-Men Iconnect Issue
By Jason Doty

This was a give away by Marvel and I-Connect for signing up to the Marvel Online ICP or whatever. It's a short story that happens in the Movie Universe between the first X-Men film. It's about rogue gaining some of Wolverines more charming aspects. It was written by Scott Lobdell with art by Salvador Larroca. I saw it on e-bay, twice after it was first released. I'd pay about $450.00 for it, if anyone has it. It's that hard to find. Just type in X-Men I-Connect in the search engine, and I believe theres a review online.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 May 2004 09:29 pm    
By Dhall

I should like to point out that while I would consider myself an X-Men expert, I am not a board moderator, nor would I consider myself a general Marvel Universe expert as some of the people on the boards are. 

I'm kind of focused on the X-Men, New Mutants, X-Factor, X-Force, X-related anything, Alpha Flight, Wolverine, Captain Britain, etc. 

I have a general working knowledge of the rest of the Marvel Universe, but I would probably defer to someone else on a lot of the non-X books. 

Oh and I'm only an expert on cannon X-Men issues. I don't do pizza hut giveaways, Ultimate X-Men, or non-cannon books. I have some of the giveaways, but I don't specifically collect them. I also do not own any movie related X-books. 


Still, if you have an X-Men question, then between me, Jeph, Paul and eveyone else, if there's a cannon answer to be had, you'll probably get it! 

Dave H

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Posted: 24 May 2004 10:34 pm    Post subject: My grasp of the chronology
By Starman

Okay, as there has been a listing here of which parts of the Marvel Universe one has the most grasp of, I feel inclined to tell of which Marvel characters I have the most knowledge, and can give my insight. 

Early Hulk from the beginning to H2 117, and from somewhere around H2 150 to around Secret Wars 1. 

The Spider-Man comics from the beginning to around ASM 113, from ASM 141 to 185, the Spider-Man issues from around PPTSS 66 and forward. 

My X-Men comics from Uncanny X-Men 1 to 24, from 94 to somewhere before X-Cutioner's Song, from somewhere before Onslaught and forward. 

Also a few Marvel issues from here and there, but quite sparse. 

I'm aware that my comic collection probably isn't as large or complete as you others might have, it's a bit spotty here and there, with a few holes, and some quite visible gaps as you can see, but hopefully I will still be able to help and assist you here at the MCP. :smile:

(Am in progress of doing chronology analysises of gap issues to help you fill the gap, takes a lot of time thou, as I have the problem of being a perfectionist, trying to get them good enough to make me pleased before I dare to show them. :wink: ) 

P.S. Oh, I guess I should add that I'm not a moderator, so that no one gets the wrong idea. 
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

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Thread 82

Posted: 22 May 2004 02:36 pm    Post subject: Wolverine: Days of Future Past #1-3
By Dhall

Wolverine: Days of Future Past #1 

December 1997 

Ill Winds 

Characters: 

Jubilee 2013 (First App., Next App. WDFP 2) 
Leech 2013 (First App., Next App. WDFP 2) 
Synch 2013 (First App., Next App. WDFP 2) 
Magneto 2013 (Last App. In Second FB in this issue, Earliest Actual App., Next App. WDFP 2) 
Wolverine 2013 (Last App. Phoenix 1, then in Flashback in this issue, then in flashback in W:DOFP 2, then in fb in this issue, then in flashbacks in W:DOFP 2, then BTS in W:DOFP:2-FB, then in NM 48-Fb, then Appears in the main portion of this issue, Next in W:DoFP 2) 
Crimson Dynamo 2013 (First App., No further apps.) 
Amiko 2013 (Midnight)(Previous Apps. in FB in this issue, then in W:DOPF 2- FB, then FB (picture) in W:DOPF 2, then in the main part of this story, Next in W:DoFP 2) 
Psylocke 2013 (Earliest App., Next App. WDFP 2) 
Helmut Zemo 2013 (First App., Next App. WDFP 2) 
Sabretooth 2013 (Appears BTS only) (First App., No further apps.) 
Shinobi Shaw 2013 (First App., Next App. WDFP 2) 

Flashbacks: 
Page 13: Logan rescues Amiko (Characters, Amiko, Wolverine, Amikos dying mother) (see UX 186) 

Page 14: Magneto rips out Logans adamantium (Wolevrine, Magneto) (see: X-Men 25)

Last edited by Dhall on 25 May 2004 07:28 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 22 May 2004 02:37 pm    Post subject: Wolverine: Days of Future Past #2
By Dhall

Wolverine: Days of Future Past #2 

January 1998 

Uneasy Alliances 


Characters: 
Wolverine 2013 (Last App. W:Dofp 1, Next App. W:Dofp 3) 
Magneto 2013 (Last App. W:Dofp 1, Next App. W:Dofp 3) 
Jubilee 2013 (Last App. W:Dofp 1, Next App. W:Dofp 3) 
White Queen 2013 (First App., Next App. W:Dofp 3) 
Scarlet Witch 2013 (First App., Next App. W:Dofp 3) 
Psylocke 2013 (Last App. W:Dofp 1, Next App. W:Dofp 3) 
Shinobi Shaw 2013 (Last App. W:Dofp 1, Next App. W:Dofp 3) 
Midnight (Amiko) 2013 (Last App. W:Dofp 1, Next App. W:Dofp 3) 
Synch 2013 (Last App. W:Dofp 1, Next App. W:Dofp 3) 
Leech 2013 (Last App. W:Dofp 1, Next App. W:Dofp 3) 
Charlotte Jones 2013 (First and only app.) 
James McDonald Hudson 2013 (First and only app.) 
Helmut Zemo 2013(Last App. W:Dofp 1, Next App. W:Dofp 3) 

Colossus 2013 (Last App. NM 48-Fb, Next App. UX 141) 
Shadowcat 2013 (Earliest App., Next App. UX 141) 
Storm 2013 (Last App. Phoenix 1, Next App. UX 141) 
Rachel Summers (Last App. XCAL 52-Fb, Next App. UX 141) 
Franklin Richards 2013 (Earliest App., Next App. UX 141) 


Flashbacks: 

Page 14: Panel 1 (Logan holds Amiko, near her mothers body) 
Page 14 panel 2: Logan leaves Amiko with Yukio and the Silver Samurai (circa Wolv 109?) 
Page 14 Panel 3: Logan lays flowers at Amikos gravesite. (She died sometime before she was 13, no body was recoverd) 
Page 14 Panel 4: A photograph of Amiko as an adult, Logan got a hold of this, and started following her trail to Moscow.)

Last edited by Dhall on 25 May 2004 07:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 22 May 2004 02:38 pm    Post subject: Wolverine: Days of Future Past #3
By Dhall

Wolverine: Days of Future Past #3 

February 1998 

Chain Reactions 


Characters: 
Shinobi Shaw 2013 (Last App. W:DOFP 2, No Further apps.) 
Psylocke 2013 (Last App. W:DOFP 2, Next App. XCAL 94) 
Wolverine 2013 (Last App. W:DOFP 2, Next App. UX 141) 
Midnight (Amiko) 2013 (Last App. W:DOFP 2, No Further apps.) 
Magneto 2013 (Last App. W:DOFP 2, Next App. UX 141) 
Jubilee 2013 (Last App. W:DOFP 2, No Further apps.) 
Helmut Zemo 2013 (Last App. W:DOFP 2, No Further apps.) 
Leech 2013 (Last App. W:DOFP 2, No Further apps.) 
Synch 2013 (Last App. W:DOFP 2, No Further apps.) 
Scarlet Witch 2013 (Last App. W:DOFP 2, No Further apps.) 
White Queen 2013 (Last App. W:DOFP 2, No Further apps.) 
Captain Britain 2013 (Appears BTS only, Next App. XCAL 94) 

Flashbacks: 
Page 5: Flashback to last two pages of previous issue (#2) Nothing new. 


All of this is without considering the info from the Unlimited Access thread, since I don't have those issues yet. Clearly they can be fitted into this, or vice versa.... 

Dave H

Last edited by Dhall on 25 May 2004 07:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 23 May 2004 10:58 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Remember, the DoFP timeline split off from our own at UX #142. (Or, depending which version of Rachel Summers' mother you believe, UX #137.) 

Either way, all the flashbacks in these issues to modern-day Marvel events -- like Wolvie having his adamantium ripped out by Magneto -- are flashbacks to an ALTERNATE version of events, on an alternate world. 

That is, they're new scenes. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 May 2004 12:05 pm    
By Dhall

Jeph, 
Are you implying that you would like to see any such flashbacks added to the 2013 character's chronologies as well? 

If we're going to do that, then we might as well just do a complete overhaul on the 2013 timeline in it's entirety to makw sure we're not missing anything. 

Dave H

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Posted: 23 May 2004 02:50 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
Are you implying that you would like to see any such flashbacks added to the 2013 character's chronologies as well? 

Well, if you're going to write up the issues, then yeah. :smile:

Quote: 
If we're going to do that, then we might as well just do a complete overhaul on the 2013 timeline in it's entirety to makw sure we're not missing anything. 

I don't know as that's entirely 100% necessary -- especially given the continuity quagmire that the DoFP timeline is. (Who's Rachel's mother? When did Prof. X die?) I'd rather not HAVE to get into it, just because you're writing up an issue that has some flashbacks to that period. There's no majorly obvious flaws with what we've got right now -- let's just stick the FBs into the established framework for now. 

Some day, EVERYthing will get an overhaul. But some of us have to work for a living. :wink:

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 May 2004 09:40 pm    
By Dhall

And go to grad school! 

I'll look into the flashbacks at some point, and the AOA stuff, and the PXX stuff, and everything else... 

The good news is that I'm at a standstill on UO. I'll look at the Quicksilver issue after I get the last few Quicksilver/Scarlet Witch flashbacks that I don't already have.... When I looked back on thier chronology I found out that I already owned 95% of thier pre-X-men 4 appearances anyway...... I hope that UO issue will be cannonical. #1 is the only questionable one so far. 

In the meantime, it'll give me (some) time to look into everything else. 


By the way, back on the 2013 topic: 

Some character additions: 

Cannonball 2013 
NM 48 

Mirage 2013 
NM 48 

Brightwind 2013 
NM 48 

Lila Cheney 2013 
NM 48 


Dave H

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Posted: 23 May 2004 10:03 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

...DoFP should DEFINITELY have its own page. 


(Hee -- anyone else besides me, when they see "DoFP", think "DoP" - the Dimension of Pain, from the online comic Sluggy Freelance?) 

http://www.sluggy.com/ 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 May 2004 10:11 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
...DoFP should DEFINITELY have its own page. 
<<<


Only one? Are we sure that it's all in the same timeline? <evil laughter> 

Oh and 
BANSHEE 2013 

NM@ 6 

This listing should be deleted, as "Banshee 2013" was just a projection made up from memories of Franklin Richards. The actual Banshee of the DOFP has never been seen (to my knowledge) and certainly didn't appear in NM @6. 

The following should be added, all appear in Excalibur 66 and 67 except Albion who only appears in Xcal 66. 

Albion 2015 (First app., killed by Ahab in Xcal 66) 

Dark Angel 2015 
Killpower 2015 
Arthur (Nigel Orpington-Smythe) 2015 
Grace 2015 

Yes 2015, not 2013. Excal 66-67 are set in 2015. 

IN addition: 

Tangerine 2013 
Xcal 94 (set in 2013) 
**Xcal 66 (set in 2015) 
**Xcal 67 (set in 2015) 

Dave H

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Posted: 24 May 2004 12:20 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Thought we weren't going to tackle DoFP as a whole, here... 

Quote: 
>>>
Excal 66-67 are set in 2015. 
<<<

Yeah -- and the scenes in UA #2 were set in 2012. I think "Character X 2013" is sort of a misnomer of a designation -- we really should call them "Character X DoFP". (Or, ideally, just have them listed under their normal names on a DoFP page...) 

Quote: 
>>>
Are we sure that it's all in the same timeline? <evil laughter> 
<<<

Well, we know that the bits from X-Men Forever weren't. And there's been some doubt expressed that the timeline seen in UX #141-142 was the same one "our" Rachel came from ... that there might be two nearly-identical DoFP timelines. And I hate issues like Excalibur #94 and W:DoFP that bloody-mindedly try to tell us that the DoFP world *hasn't branched off the main MU timeline yet* -- that it's still a viable possible future, despite it being averted back in UX #142... 

Who knows? I say we just try to mush it all together, and if pieces pop out we hammer 'em back in. 

And with that, I'm off to get hammered. You can only chronologize the DoFP world while drunk, you know. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 May 2004 02:22 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Quote: 

>>>
Dark Angel 2015 
Killpower 2015 
Arthur (Nigel Orpington-Smythe) 2015 
Grace 2015 

Yes 2015, not 2013. Excal 66-67 are set in 2015. 
<<<
 


If they're the same timeline, though, it would be more user-friendly for all the character therein to have the same designation. Either keeping them as 2013 (e.g. Killpower 2013), or switching them all to DoFP (e.g. Killpower DoFP) seem the best way to go, short of a separate page for the timeline.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 24 May 2004 09:57 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Thought we weren't going to tackle DoFP as a whole, here... 
<<<


Well I'm not, but I did see a couple of things that I could easily update w/o having to crack open a book, and this is as good a place as any to do it. (Since we were on the subject.) 

Dave H

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Posted: 24 May 2004 10:53 pm    Post subject: Wolverine: Days of Future Past
By Starman

Have been polishing and trying to finish my analysis for this limited series during my free hours for a few weeks now (long time because of absent-mindedness and probably trying to be too exacting about it. :wink: ), I'll try to fit in the flashbacks and such as accurate as possible at the same time, assuming that they where in the same order as in the regular Marvel Universe.
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

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Posted: 25 May 2004 07:08 pm    
By Dhall

Jeph, 

Quote: 
>>>
Remember, the DoFP timeline split off from our own at UX #142. (Or, depending which version of Rachel Summers' mother you believe, UX #137.)  
<<<


Technically speaking, in Wolverine: Days of Future Past the divergence point is Wolverine 109, when Logan leaves Amiko with Yukio. 

(Yes nevermind that contradicts everything else we've ever seen....) 

I'll add in the flashbacks anyway..... 
Dave H

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Posted: 25 May 2004 07:49 pm    
By Dhall

And in MCP format, just including the WDFP additions..... 


Wolverine 2013 
Phoenix 1 
**WDFP 1-FB 
**WDFP 2-FB 
**WDFP 1-FB 
**WDFP 2-FB 
**WDFP 2-FB-BTS 
NM 48-FB 
**WDFP 1 
**WDFP 2 
**WDFP 3 
UX 141 
UX 142 
UX 202-FB 

Magneto 2013 
**WDFP 1-FB 
WDFP 1 
WDFP 2 
WDFP 3 
{UX 141} 

Psylocke 2013 
**WDFP 1 
**WDFP 2 
**WDFP 3 
XCAL 94 

CAPTAIN BRITAIN 2013 
**WDFP 3-BTS 
XCAL 94 

COLOSSUS 2013 
PHOENIX 1 
NM 48-FB 
**WDFP 2 
{UX 141} 
UX 142 
UX 202-FB 

SHADOWCAT 2013 
**WDFP 2 
UX 141 
UX 142 
UX 188-FB 
XCAL 52-FB 
UX 192-FB 
UX 202-FB 
XCAL 66 

STORM 2013 
PHOENIX 1 
**WDFP 2 
{UX 141} 
UX 142 
UX 202-FB 

RICHARDS, FRANKLIN 2013 
**WDFP 2 
UX 141 
FF@ 23 
XF@ 5 
NM@ 6 
XF@ 5 
UX@ 14 
UX@ 14/2 
UX@ 14 

PHOENIX III/RACHEL SUMMERS 
UX 199-FB 
XCAL 52-FB 
UX 199-FB 
XCAL 35-FB 
XCAL 22-FB 
XCAL 52-FB 
**WDFP 2 
{UX 141} 
UX 142 
UX 188-FB 



New listings: 
Midnight (Amiko) 2013 
WDFP 1-FB 
WDFP 2-FB 
WDFP 1 
WDFP 2 
WDFP 3 

Jubilee 2013 
WDFP 1 
WDFP 2 
WDFP 3 

Leech 2013 
WDFP 1 
WDFP 2 
WDFP 3 

Synch 2013 
WDFP 1 
WDFP 2 
WDFP 3 

Crimson Dynamo 2013 
WDFP 1 

Zemo, Helmut 2013 
WDFP 1 
WDFP 2 
WDFP 3 

Sabretooth 2013 
WDFP 1 

Shaw, Shinobi 2013 
WDFP 1 
WDFP 2 
WDFP 3 

White Queen 2013 
WDFP 2 
WDFP 3 

Scarlet Witch 2013 
WDFP 2 
WDFP 3 

Jones, Charlotte 2013 
WDFP 2 

Guardian (James McDonald Hudson) 2013 
WDFP 2

Last edited by Dhall on 25 May 2004 08:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 25 May 2004 07:57 pm    
By Starman

Dhall wrote: 
CAPTAIN BRITAIN 2013 
**WDFP 2-BTS 
XCAL 94 


Shouldn't this BTS-appearence be in WDFP 3? Last page, first panel, Emma Frost's comment? (I'm not exactly sure of the BTS-concept, but I guess this count as it.)
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

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Posted: 25 May 2004 08:03 pm    
By Dhall

Quite right, Ill change it.

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Thread 83

Posted: 13 May 2004 03:26 pm    Post subject: New DC vs. Marvel placement ( all Marvel characters )
By Jason Doty

Here's a corrected list containing all of the Marvel characters shown in the crossover. See if this works. 

Spider Man 
SENSM 0 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4 
SENSM 0 

Wolverine 
H2 434 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4 
UX 325 

Storm 
UX 324 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4 
UX 325 

Gambit 
W/G 4 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
UX 325 

Juggernaut 
X 42 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
W2 93 

Captain America 
CA 445 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4 
CA 446 

Hulk 
H2 434 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4 
OE 3 

Banner, Betty 
H2 434 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
OE 3 

Professor X 
W2 92 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
UX 326 

Beast 
W2 92 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
X '95 

Psylocke 
UX 324 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
X '95/2 

Cyclops 
W2 91 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
X '95 

Phoenix 
W2 91 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
X '95 

Elektra 
DD 332 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4 
W2 100 

Thor 
T 490 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4 
T 491 

Silver Surfer 
CPU 1 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4 
SS/RUNE 

Sub-Mariner 
FFU 11/2 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4 
FFUP 2 

Quicksilver 
CA 445 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4 
A:C 

Bullseye 
DD 290 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
PUN3 1 

Jubilee 
GX 6 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4 
UX 325 

Husk 
GX 6 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
GX 7 

Jameson, J. Jonah 
DB 3 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4 
ASM 407 

Absorbing Man 
T 490 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
AUP 3 

Daredevil 
H2 434 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
DD 345 

Venom 
WOSMSS 1 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4 
V:STA 5/2 

Dr. Doom 
FF 402 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
FF 403 

Punisher 
DRSTR3 81-BTS 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
PUN3 1 

Ghost Rider III 
DE:O 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
O:E 4 

Human Torch 
FFUP 1 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
FFUP 2 

Thing 
CA 445 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
FFUP 2 

Moleman 
SS3 94 
*DCVM 1-BTS 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4 
HFH 1 

Dr. Strange 
DRSTR3 89 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
OE 2 

Archangel 
UX 323 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
X '95 

She Hulk 
H2 442 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
AUP 4 

Annihulus 
FFU 3 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
WLOCK2 3 

Living Tribunal 
FF@ 27 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4 
SS/RUNE 

Thanos 
CPU 1 
*DCVM 1-BTS 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4 
SMTU 2 

Lizard II 
PPTSS 238 (F/B) 
*DCVM 1-BTS 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
PPTSS 238 

Iceman 
UX 324 
*DCVM 1-BTS 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
UX 325 

Scarecrow 
GR3 7 
*DCVM 1-BTS 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
GR3 85 

Jones, Rick 
H2 427 
*DCVM 1-BTS 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
H2 439 

Kingpin 
DD 342 
*DCVM 1-BTS 
*DCVM 2 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4 
X 62 

Captain Marvel III 
CM5 14 (F/B) 
*DCVM 1-BTS 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
AUP 5 

Iron Man 
H2 434 
*DCVM 1-BTS 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
A:C 

Black Widow 
AUP 3 
*DCVM 1-BTS 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
A:C 

Hawkeye 
WARM 19 
*DCVM 1-BTS 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
A:C 

Nightcrawler 
W '95 
*DCVM 1-BTS 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4 
XCAL 88 

Abomination 
H2 432 
*DCVM 1-BTS 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4 
XM 19 

I've narrowed down every character except the Green Goblin, tell me what you think about this placement.

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Posted: 13 May 2004 05:47 pm    Post subject: A minor mistake
By Jason Doty

She Hulk is in correct. 
It should be 

She Hulk 
TS 21 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3-BTS 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
FFUP 2

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Posted: 14 May 2004 02:51 pm    Post subject: Phillip Urich
By dimadick

"I've narrowed down every character except the Green Goblin" 

Phillip Urich had a very short-lived career as the Greee Goblin. Debuting in Web of Spider-Man #125 (June, 1995) and retiring in Green Goblin #13(October, 1996). Unfortunately the crossover offers no clues about placement in his own chronology. Perhaps we could determine it basen on publication dates and encounters with other characters. 

1)Green Goblin #3 (December , 1995) features a battle involving Scarlet Spider/ Ben Reilly, Green Goblin IV/ Phil Urich, Joystick/Janice Olivia Yanizeski and El Toro Negro. This seems to have occured before Sensational Spider-Man #0. Ben, as Spider-Man II, encounters Joystick again in Amazing Spider-Man #409 (March, 1996), "some weeks" from their last fight. 

2)Green Goblin #4 (January, 1996) features Phil confronting Hobgoblin IV /Jason Philip Macendale in battle. Jason defeats him and attempts to kill him. Phil is saved by the arrival of Thing/Benjamin Jacob Grimm. 

3)Green Goblin #5 (February, 1996) features Phil assisting his uncle Ben Urich in investigating the activities of Judge Tomb. Ben is hospitalized by unnamed attackers. Phil blames Judge Tomb and decides to seek revenge for his uncle. This despite having recurring nightmares, involving the phrase: "Death comes to all who dare assume the mantle of the Green Goblin!". 

4)Green Goblin #6 (March, 1996) features the introduction of Ben to Daredevil/Matthew Murdock, who is also interested on the attack on Ben Urich. and to Liz Allan Osborn, who is interested in the latest Green Goblin. Ben is back in action, assigned to investigate the latest grave robbery by Spider-Man. This is a reference to Sensational Spider-Man #2 (March, 1996) where Spider-Man II/Ben Reilly steels the skeleton of a Peter Parker clone. Thus definitely occuring after Sensational Spider-Man #0. 

Green Goblin's DC versus Marvel appearances would then have to be placed following Green Goblin #3 but preceeding Green Goblin #6. Any ideas about further narrowing the placement?

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Posted: 14 May 2004 04:35 pm    
By SeanCurtin

My best guess for the Green Goblin's placement would be between GG 3 and 4. 

-Sean

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Posted: 15 May 2004 02:11 am
By Starman

dimadick wrote: 
>>>
This seems to have occured before Sensational Spider-Man #0. Ben, as Spider-Man II, encounters Joystick again in Amazing Spider-Man #409 (March, 1996), "some weeks" from their last fight. 
<<<


Ben did also encounter Joystick and Phil in Amazing Scarlet Spider #2 (December, 1995), also before Sensational Spider-Man #0. Same month as Green Goblin #3. I wonder which story order it is of these issues? Which comes first? I've read neither of Amazing Scarlet Spider #2 and Green Goblin #3, so I don't know.
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 May 2004 03:47 am    Post subject: Joystick
By dimadick

Joystick and El Toro Negro were both participants of "The Great Game", where bets were placed on the outcome of battles between various superhumans. 

In Amazing Scarlet Spider #2 Joystick defeats El Toro Negro. She hopes to face Spider-Man next but is dissapointed to be assigned Scarlet Spider instead. The issue marks her introduction to both Scarlet Spider and Green Goblin IV who falls for her. She marks their first encounter as a warning skirmish. 

Green Goblin #3 suppossedly occures "the night after" Amazing Scarlet Spider #2. Joystick has left an invitation for battle with Scarlet Spider. Green Goblin turns up instead. They fight and flirt at the same time. El Toro Negro seeks revenge for his defeat and joins the fight. Scarlet Spider arrives late and also joins the fight. 

So the order of the two issues seems pretty clear.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 May 2004 07:19 am    Post subject: Any other Spider-Man charecter mistakes
By Jason Doty

So, Green Goblin IV would read like this 

Green Goblin IV 
GG3 
*DCVM 1 
*DCVM 2-BTS 
*DCVM 3 
*DCVM 4-BTS 
GG4 

Also is my asumption about this occuring between SENSM 0 correct, I do not have the issue, but was going by a review on the Spider-Fan site. 

The other two Spider-Man charecters would be Lizzard II and J. Jonah Jameson. How are these placements ? 

Also, per Jeph!'s suggestion I moved the X-Men appearances between UX 324 and UX 325. Does this satisfy the X-Men side of things ? 

Hopefully, The resident Avengers and Fantastic Four Guru's can also chime in !

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 May 2004 10:20 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Hopefully, The resident Avengers and Fantastic Four Guru's can also chime in ! 
<<<


I've been working on preliminary calendar placements for various Avengers during this time period, which is during the few August weeks before the early September anniversary of the Avengers seen in A:C. 

Quicksilver, Black Widow, and Hawkeye all have their new costumes in DCVM. This means that Pietro and Natasha must appear in DCVM after CA 444, in which they are seen in their old costumes. Cap cannot make any appearances during the "month" between CA 444 and 445. Since Cap appears in a Hydra raid in DCVM 1, that means that DCVM must occur after CA 445. CA 445 leads directly into CA 446-448. Thus, Cap must appear in DCVM after CA 448 (and before A:T; although Prime/Captain America #1 may be sometime around that point). 

Getting back to the new costumes, calendar placements are suggesting that they make their earliest chronological appearance in DCVM. Clint's last appearance in his old costume was in IM 317/2; Pietro and Natasha, as mentioned, are last seen in their old costumes in CA 444. The next appearance of the new Hawkeye duds would be in WARM 19 (at the end of which he heads off to the Avengers reunion in A:C) and the next appearance of the new Widow duds would be in AUP 3, which occurs "just before" A:C. AUP 3 also features a Pietro impersonator in the new Quicksilver duds; Pietro's next appearance in the new costume would be in A:C. 

Calendar placement suggests Thor in DCVM between T 490 and 491, where you have it. However, this would require Thor switching back and forth between costumes. 

As for the FF, I have FFUP 1, CA 445, and DCVM during the span of "barely a week" between FF:AR 2 and FF 403. 

As for Spidey, DCVM seems to be settling into a spot between PPTSS 230 and S-M 64, during a time shortly after SENSM 0 that Ben Reilly was rejoicing in his claim of the Spider-Man role (and new costume). 

Gee, it seems everyone was donning new duds around that time! 

BTW, thanks for the analysis of the placement of X-Men in DCVM; it has forced me to reshuffle some things. The sequence seems to make sense as follows: 

DCVM (Juggie in the MU) 
W2 93 (Juggie to Ultraverse) 
UX 325 (end of Iceman's and Rogue's separation from X-Men) 
X 45 (Rogue leaves) 
Then the Ultraverse/Marvel crossovers (Exiles Vs. X-Men #0, PhoenixResurrection: Genesis #1, Phoenix Resurrection: Revelations #1). 

Rogue's involvement in the crossovers is still a little sloppy; she really left in X 45 and Gambit decided to take time off, but there they are back in action together. We'll just have to assume a logical explanation exists and let it stand.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 May 2004 12:25 pm    Post subject: When placeing Spider-man
By Jason Doty

In Sensational Spider-man #O, The Ben Reilly Spider-man dyes his hair blonde. Does his hair stay blonde the whole time he is Spider-man?, because in DCVM his hair is brown. That is why I made the assumption that his appearance takes place between that issue. I don't own it and only read a review.

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Posted: 25 May 2004 12:33 pm    
By Starman

Yes, his hair stays blond from when he dyes his hair in Sensational Spider-Man #0 until he dies in Spider-Man #75. He cuts it short too, he's was a long-haired brunett.
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 May 2004 09:22 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
In Sensational Spider-man #O, The Ben Reilly Spider-man dyes his hair blonde. Does his hair stay blonde the whole time he is Spider-man?, because in DCVM his hair is brown. That is why I made the assumption that his appearance takes place between that issue. I don't own it and only read a review. 
<<<


Ben cuts his hair and dyes it in the same scene in SENSM 0 in which he dons the new costume. This takes place after hours in the Centennial University fashion department. He's seen sneaking into the building, and picking out fabric remnants from a bin, and then he sews the costume together on site. There in the fashion department he sees the bottle of hair dye and cuts his hair, then is seen leaving that fashion department building. It is presumed that he dyed his hair there on site. He spends that same night fighting Armada and the next morning, he stops into the Daily Grind with his newly blond hair. The woman at the Grind hardly recognizes him as the man she met the day before, when Ben's hair was brown (a scene depicted before the Centennial U scene). 

It's awkward to try to insert the DCVM story in this sequence of events. I'm inclined to think that Ben Reilly's hair in DCVM was depicted incorrectly. Or maybe he dyed it brown for DCVM, in which for some reason he's posing as photographer "Ben Reilly, but my professional name is Peter Parker." What was that about? It was never Ben's intention to assume Peter's occupation or any other part of Peter's life, especially since at this point in time Peter's life was his own, just without the webs. And Ben made it a point that he was claiming his own life. Was the "photographer Ben" from DCVM just some weird effect of elements from the DC and Marvel Universes switching places? Inquiring minds want to know!
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 May 2004 04:56 pm    Post subject: I think we should go with the artist error.
By Jason Doty

On the Spider-man issue 
I do think this was an artist error, and I guess we could assume he just dyed it back, because of being on the "merged" earth, he wanted to find out was going on, and working for a news sourse would be the best way. 

After making the changes Paul has suggested, Is there any other corrections people believe should be changed? 

I'd like to finalyze the DC/ Marvel stuff, so we can work on the All Access.

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Thread 84

Posted: 28 May 2004 09:51 am    Post subject: Silver Surfer/ Superman (1997)
By Jason Doty

I'm trying to place the last universe to universe (excluding JLA/ Avengers, because I believe other people have already placed it and are just waiting to post) I believe the Silver Surfer/ Superman oneshot should come between SS3 122 and XFOR '96 

Silver Surfer 
SS3 122 
*SS/SUP 
XFOR '96 

Imposible Man 
XFOR&C '95 
*SS/SUP 

I placed these here because around SS3 123 because the Silver Surfer returns to Earth, and it's prior to that.

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Posted: 29 May 2004 03:25 am    Post subject: Shi'ar and Kree
By dimadick

Does this crossover contain a reference to the Shi'ar and/or the Kree who are the conflicting forces of X-Force'96? Perhaps chronology could be based on their own activities at the time.

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Posted: 13 May 2004 01:33 am    Post subject: Age of Apocalypse chronology
By SeanCurtin

As far as I can tell, the overall Age of Apocalypse chronology should look something like this: 

X 40 
UX 321 
X 41 (actual point at which the timeline diverges) 
X-Men Chronicles 1 
Tales of the Age of Apocalupse vol. 1 (By the Light) 
XM '96 
X-Men Chronicles 2 
XM -1 
X:ALPHA (crossover officially begins) 
ASTONX 1 
Weapon X 1 
Factor X 1 
XM 1 
X-Calibre 1 
Gambit &c 1 
GENNXT 1 
AMAZX 1 
AMAZX 2 
ASTONX 2 
Weapon X 2 
Factor X 2 
XM 2 
X-Calibre 2 
Gambit &c 2 
GENNXT 2 
AoA: The Chosen (framing sequence) 
ASTONX 3 
Weapon X 3 
Factor X 3 
XM 3 
X-Calibre 3 
Gambit &c 3 
GENNXT 3 
AMAZX 3 
X-Universe 1 
ASTONX 4 
Weapon X 4 
X-Calibre 4 
XM 4 
Factor X 4 
Gambit &c 4 
GENNXT 4 
AMAZX 4 
X-Universe 2 
X:OMEGA 

My reasoning: The "X-Facts" Bullpen Bulletins-style page in each issue suggests that the chronological order of the individual series is as follows: Astonishing X-Men; Weapon X; Factor X; X-Man; X-Calibre; Gambit & the X-Ternals; Generation Next; Amazing X-Men. This is pretty much identical to publication order. Exceptions include Weapon X #2/Amazing X-Men #2 (the latter must occur before the former, and AMAZX 1 ends on a cliffhanger, so I'm placing AMAZX 2 at the very beginning of the chronology for that month's releases) and XM 4/X-Calibre #4/Factor X #4 (XM 4 references the events of X-Calibre #4, and has to take place either during or just prior to Factor X #4). 

I don't have the Blink mini or the second Tales of the AoA one-shot, so I couldn't say for certain where those occur. 

Also, as long as we're on a What If kick, WI2 77 and WI2 81 are both AoA-related issues. #77, What If Legion Killed Magneto?, diverges from (a point just after) UX 320; #81, What If The Age of Apocalypse Never Ended?, diverges from X-Men Omega. 

-Sean

Last edited by SeanCurtin on 13 May 2004 01:44 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 13 May 2004 01:41 am  
By SeanCurtin

Suggested abbreviations for the AoA titles not already listed in the Key: 

AOA:CHOSEN - Age of Apocalypse: The Chosen 
FX - Factor X 
GAM&XT - Gambit and the X-Ternals 
TAOA:BTL - Tales of the Age of Apocalypse: By the Light (following the naming conventions of the Tales of the Marvels titles) 
WX - Weapon X 
X-CALIBRE - X-Calibre (there's no elegant way to abbreviate this one without causing confusion with XCAL (Excalibur)) 
XCHRON - X-Men Chronicles 
X-U - X-Universe 

-Sean

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Posted: 13 May 2004 07:10 am    
By Dhall

(I've deleted this post, since I reposted the whole list later on in this thread.)

Last edited by Dhall on 13 May 2004 09:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 13 May 2004 02:35 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Summaries of flashbacks: 

Astonishing X-Men #2-fb 
Nemesis (not yet Holocaust) and Apocalypse drown a normal-looking Sunfire during the culling of Japan. 

Astonishing X-Men #3-fb 
Weapon X and Sabretooth find a young Blink. This should occur after the -fb in Blink #3 but before Tales of the Age of Apocalypse. 

Factor X #2-fb 
Rogue, pre-X-Men, teams up with Polaris and inadvertently drains half her power. This occurs before X-Men Chronicles #1. 

Factor X #3 (fb2) 
Mr. Sinister makes a deal with Weapon X and Jean Grey. This should occur shortly prior to X-Men Alpha. 

Factor X #3 (fb3) 
Jean Grey is captured by Cyclops. Mr. Sinister examines her while cyclops watches from the shadows. This occurs shortly prior to Tales of the Age of Apocalypose: Sinister Bloodlines. 

Factor X #3 (fb4) 
Jean Grey escapes. Cyclops and Weapon X confront and maim one another. This occurs shortly after Tales of the Age of Apocalypse: Sinister Bloodlines, and before X-Men Chronicles #2. 

Gambit and the X-Ternals #2-fb 
Jonath serves in the army of D'Ken's Shi'ar empire, and witnesses massacres. Occurs at some nebulous point in the past, probably after Tales of the Age of Apocalypse: Sinister Bloodlines. 

Gambit and the X-Ternals #4-fb 
Most of the issue takes place in flashback form between #3 and the present-day parts of this issue. Lila Cheney, Gambit, Rictor, Jubilee, Charles Lehnsherr and Guido Carosella appear in the flashback and the present; Dazzler, Exodus, Nanny and Apocalypse also appear in the present. 

X-Man #1-fb 
Nate Grey escapes from the pens with Cyclops's assistance; Mr. Sinister watches from the shadows (as revealed in #4). Occurs after the -fb in #4 and before the -fbs in #3. 

X-Man #3 (fb1) 
Forge, pre-cybernetics, in an early alliance with Magneto. Must be prior to XM '96. Forge is portrayed as being quite a bit younger, so I placed this early in Magneto's chronology. 

X-Man #3 (fb2) 
Forge finds a young Nate Grey. (Cybernetics may or may not be present; he's wearing a cloak.) This, and the subsequent flashbacks, must be after both the -fb in #1 and XM '96. 

X-Man #3 (fb3) 
Forge kissing a unidentified woman (Storm) with a lightningbolt tattoo over one eye. 

X-Man #3 (fb4) 
Forge tests his cybernetic arm for the first time. 

X-Man #3 (fb5) 
Forge watches Brute, Toad and Nate celebrating something-or-other. 

X-Man #3 (fb6) 
Essex (Sinister) confronts Forge (a retelling of previous scenes). 

X-Man #4 (fb1) 
Sinister working on Nate Grey (seen here in a more or less adult form). Occurs after X-Man Minus One but before the -fb in #1. 

X-Man #4 (fb2) 
A retelling of the flashback from #1, from Sinister's POV. 

Also, the pin-ups in X-Men Chronicles #2 are chronologically important, believe it or not. 

X-Men Chronicles #2/2 
Pin-up: "Holocaust." Title page; the only pin-up that's not chronologizable. 

X-Men Chronicles #2/3 
"The Rescue of Chamber." Chamber, Colossus, Shadowcat and Skin appear. Should occur shortly prior to Generation Next #1. 

X-Men Chronicles #2/4 
"The Transformation of Nemesis to Holocaust." Dark Beast and Holocaust appear. Occurs after X-Men Chronicles #1 and the flashback in Astonishing X-Men #2 (which are, I believe, the only appearances of Holocaust as Nemesis). 

X-Men Chronicles #2/5 
"The Funeral of the Scarlet Witch." Magneto, Quicksilver, Rogue, Weapon X, Jean Grey, Storm, Bova, Iceman and Colossus appear (and the Scarlet Witch, BTS). Occurs very shortly after X-Men Chronicles #1. 

X-Men Chronicles #2/6 
"The Salvation of Exodus." Magneto and Exodus appear. Should occur not too long before X-Man Alpha, as Exodus is still pretty green in Amazing X-Men. 

-Sean

Last edited by SeanCurtin on 26 May 2004 03:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 13 May 2004 03:35 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Also, the pin-ups in X-Men Chronicles #2 are chronologically important, believe it or not. 
<<<



Sean, I agree with you 100% that the pinups can be put in chronological order. This is something that I wouldn't suggest for most comics, but those that have read this issue will know what we are talking about. 

Before we proceed with doing that, I would like to hear from one or two other people on the board about adding the pinups for this issue to the MCP. 

Thanks for writing up the flashbacks. I am now very torn about which project I want to work on next..... 

Dave H

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Posted: 13 May 2004 04:28 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

They're not really "pin-ups" as such. Pin-ups are generic action shots, Wolvie grimacing at the camera or the like. These are one-panel, silent, representations of new scenes. 

I'd agree that they should be included -- when we get 'round to tackling the AoA. (And when that happens, Dave, I've got a few nitpicks with your ordering...) :wink:

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 May 2004 04:45 pm    
By Dhall

Jeph, please pick away. Either on the board, or email me. 

If I'm missing something, I would appreciate the chance to iron it out, before I post an updated version of my AOA order with flashbacks. 


Thanks! 

Dave H

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Posted: 13 May 2004 07:05 pm    
By Dhall

There is an additional flashback in X-Factor #3. 


It is a flashback with no new information (so we won't have to index it, as it presents the end of Weapon X #2, with Jean leaving Weapon X to fly to America. I mention it, because we'll need to change the fb #'s, and I want us all to be on the same page with this project. (This would be fb1) 

Dave H 

Copied from Sean's post, but with revised fb #'s. 

Factor X #3 (fb2) 
Mr. Sinister makes a deal with Weapon X and Jean Grey. This should occur shortly prior to X-Men Alpha. 

Factor X #3 (fb3) 
Jean Grey is captured by Cyclops. Mr. Sinister examines her while cyclops watches from the shadows. This occurs shortly prior to Tales of the Age of Apocalypose: Sinister Bloodlines. 

Factor X #3 (fb4) 
Jean Grey escapes. Cyclops and Weapon X confront and maim one another. This occurs shortly after Tales of the Age of Apocalypse: Sinister Bloodlines, and before X-Men Chronicles #2. 


Also: 
Blink #3 (fb) 

Blink, and Illyana are imprisoned in the pens. The Sugar Man comes to torture his captives. (This is before the fb in Astonishing X-men #3) 

And X-Man #3 (fb3) 
Forge kissing a unidentified woman with a lightningbolt tattoo over one eye. 

This woman is Storm. We can id her by the hair, and the tattoo, which the AOA Storm has.

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Posted: 13 May 2004 09:09 pm    Post subject: Age of Apocalypse Annotated
By Dhall

Age of Apocalypse Annotated 

With thanks to Sean Curtin for the flashback help. (I have used or altered most of his descriptions for the flashbacks.) 

Note: The AOA Timeline diverges from X-Men 41 Page 18 panel 4. 

X-Men 41-FB 

Characters: Magneto, Bishop, Xavier (First Appearance of the AOA versions of these characters) 
Xavier is killed in the past be his son from the future. This paradox causes, Legion, Psylocke, Storm, and Iceman to disappear, as there were no X-Men to come back in time, cause Xavier never created the team, etc. Magneto cradles Xavier in his arms, and weeps. Bishop, already time displaced remains the SOLE SURVIVOR of a world which is now LOST, possibly forevermore! 
(This issue has to occur before anything else set in the AOA Timeline, as it is in this issue, that the timeline diverges from the mainstream MU.) 

Tales from the Age of Apocalypse: Sinister Bloodlines FB 

Characters: Corsair, Kate Summers, Alex Summers (Havok), Scott Summers (Cyclops) 
The Summers family are flying in Corsairs plane, when it is attacked by a Shiar Warship. Kate pushes Scott and Alex out of the plane with the one reminaing parachute. 

These two flashbacks occur after the divergence point from the main universe, and therefore count as new flashbacks (for the AOA.) 

Tales from the Age of Apocalypse: Sinister Bloodlines FB 

Characters: Corsair, Kate Summers, Shiar, Chod, Hepzibah, Raza 
Corsair and Kate are taken prisoner by the Shiar, and subjected to terrible experiments. Kate dies from this treatment. Later, Corsair is thrown in a cell with Chod, Hepzibah, and Raza. They break out, steal a ship, and spend years frightin the Shiar. 
These two flashbacks occur after the divergence point from the main universe, and therefore count as new flashbacks (for the AOA.) 

Factor X #2-FB 

Characters: Rogue, Polaris 
Rogue, pre-X-Men, teams up with Polaris and inadvertently drains half her power. This occurs before X-Men Chronicles #1. 

X-Men Chronicles 1 

Characters: 
Colossus, Jean Grey, Iceman, Magneto, Quicksilver, Rogue, Scarlet Witch, Storm, Weapon X (all X-Men) 
Mystique 
Bova 
Candra, Gideon, Death, Sabretooth, War (all Horsemen of Apocalypse) 
Nemesis 
Apocalypse 
This issue occurs BEFORE Apocalypse takes over North America, so it must be the first AOA issue (as every other AOA takes place after Apocalypses conquest.) Scarlet Witch is killed by Nemesis in this issue, Sabretooth is working for Apocalpyse. Also the Horsemen we see in this issue are not the same ones as established in X-Men:Alpha, and onwards. Weapon X joins the X_Men in this issue. 

X-Men Chronicles 2/5 

Characters: Magneto, Quicksilver, Rogue, Weapon X, Jean Grey, Storm, Bova, Iceman, Colossus, (and Scarlet Witch  deceased-BTS) 
The Funeral of the Scarlet Witch 

X-Man #3-Flashback (FB 1) 

Characters: Forge, Magneto 
Forge, pre-cybernetics, in an early alliance with Magneto. Must be prior to XM '96. Forge is portrayed as being quite a bit younger, so I placed this early in Magneto's chronology. 

Astonishing X-men #2-Flashback 

Characters: Nemesis, Apocalypse, Sunfire. 
Nemesis (not yet Holocaust) and Apocalypse drown a normal-looking Sunfire during the culling of Japan. 

Tales from the Age of Apocalypse: Sinister Bloodlines (First Five Pages) 

Characters: Sinister, Corsair, Havok, Cyclops, Dark Beast 
This happens five years before the main part of this issue. Corsair returns to Earth, his ship crashes into the bay, near Apocalypses citadel. Scott and Alex fight each other, but Alex cheats by using his power. Sinister reprimands him for that. McCoy (who is still human looking, so this is befored he transformed into the dark beast) tells Sinister about the downed space craft. 

X-Men Chronicles # 2/4 

Characters: Dark Beast, Holocaust (formerly Nemesis) 
The Transformation of Nemesis to Holocaust." Dark Beast and Holocaust appear. Occurs after X-Men Chronicles #1 and the flashback in Astonishing X-Men #2. 

Blink #3-FLASHBACK 

Characters: Blink, Illyana, Sugar Man 
Blink, and Illyana are imprisoned in the pens. The Sugar Man comes to torture his captives. 

Astonishing X-Men #3-Flashback 

Characters: Sabretooth, Weapon X, Blink 
Weapon X and Sabretooth find a young Blink. This should occur after the -fb in Blink #3 but before Tales of the Age of Apocalypse. 

Factor X #3-FB (FB3) 

Characters: Jean Grey, Cyclops, Mr. Sinister 
Jean Grey is captured by Cyclops. Mr. Sinister examines her while cyclops watches from the shadows. This occurs shortly prior to Tales of the Age of Apocalypose: Sinister Bloodlines. 

Tales from the Age of Apocalypse: Sinister Bloodlines 

Characters: 
Aurora, Beast, Bedlam Brothers, Cyclops, Emplate, Havok, Monet twins, Northstar (all Mutant Elite Force) 
Sinister 
Christopher Summers 
Angel 
Robbie Robertson 
Misty Knight 
Colleen Wing 
Cobra 
Mister Hyde 
In flashbacks : 
Alex, Catherine, Christopher and Scott Summers 
Ch'od, Corsair, Hepzibah, Raza Longknife (all Starjammers) 
On a video monitor : 
Jean Grey, Weapon X 
Notes: The first portion of this issue occurs five years ago 
The main part of this issue occurs some time before X-Men: Alpha, so five years ago is (at least) 6 or 7 before X-Men:Alpha depending on how much time passes between the main part of this issue, and X-Men:Alpha. 
This issue has to occur BEFORE X-Man -1, as Jean Grey, and Weapon-X are on the video monitor, and Sinister and the Dark beast are talking, and Sinister says This Womans Genetic Code may be the perfect complement to Scotts X-Factor This implies that hes had a chance to study Jeans genetic material. (It also has to occur BEFORE X-Men Chronicles 2, as in that issue, Jean has already been rescued from Sinister, and is planning to leave the X-Men with Weapon X) 
ALSO, Scott has two perfectly good eyes in this issue, meaning that this is BEFORE Jeans escape, and so BEFORE X-Men: Chronicles #2) 

Gambit and the X-ternals #2-Flashback 

Characters: Jonath 
Jonath serves in the army of D'Ken's Shi'ar empire, and witnesses massacres. Occurs at some nebulous point in the past, probably after Tales of the Age of Apocalypse: Sinister Bloodlines. 

FACTOR X #3-FB (FB4) 

Characters: Jean Grey, Cyclops, Weapon X 
Jean Grey escapes. Cyclops and Weapon X confront and maim one another. This occurs shortly after Tales of the Age of Apocalypse: Sinister Bloodlines, and before X-Men Chronicles #2. 

Tales from the Age of Apocalypse (By the Light) 

Characters: 
Blink, Colossus, Gambit, Magneto, Morph, Nightcrawler, Rogue, Sabretooth (all X-Men) 
Sunfire 
Robert Kelly 
Cyclops 
Death / Maximus 
Diablo 
Absorbing Man 
Notes: Cyclops is already missing an eye, (so this is after Tales of Aoa:SB) Sabretooth is an X-Men. Death is still one of the Horsemen. Weapon X and Jean are not in the X-Men, implying that this occurs before they return and formally quit the team (X-Men Chronicles #2) Blink is a recent addition to the team, so this is after Sabretooth has rescued her. 

X-Men Chronicles #2 

Characters: 
Colossus, Gambit, Iceman, Magneto, Quicksilver, Rogue, Sabretooth, Storm (all X-Men) 
Jean Grey, Weapon X (both former X-Men) 
Holocaust 
Wolverine (not to be confused with Logan who is Weapon X in the AOA) 
Notes: 
The issue takes place several years (ca. 3-4) before the actual Age of Apocalypse crossover storyline. Jean Grey and Weapon-X both leave the X-Men in this issue. 
Sabretooth is an X-Man in this story, so we know that it occurs sometime AFTER X-Men: Chronicles #1. 
Logan says Been that way since the day you had us abandon Jean to Apocalypses camps. This means that Jean has already escapes from Sinister, and that Sinister already has her genetic material (to make X-Man) Also Logan is already missing his hand. 
Rogue and Magneto hook up in this issue. Gambit leaves. 

X-man 96 

Characters: 
First story : 
Nate Grey(Note he travels back in time to appear in this issue, after X-Man 23) 
Sugarman (Note he travels back in time to appear in this issue) 
AoA characters : 
Forge 
Magneto 
Morph 
Mastermind 
Calvin Rankin 
Notes: This is a few years before X-Man 1. This story explains how the AoA Forge lost his eye and why the AoA Mastermind was mute. Due to their disagreement of whether or not to use Nates power to go after Apocalypse, Forge realizes that the events of this issue, represent the final wedge between him and Magneto. This issue comes a few years before X-Men:Alpha. 

X-Man -1 

Characters: 
Nate Grey 
Mr. Sinister 
Dark Beast 
Infinites 
In a flashback : 
Scott Summers, as a child 
Notes: This issue has to occur AFTER Sinister has decided to use Jeans genetic material to create Nate. This decision was being contemplated in Tales of AOA: Sinister Bloodlines. 
Nate isnt supposed to be more than a few years old in X-Man 1-4, so Ive placed this as close to X-men Alpha as I could. It could be flipped with Tales of AOA, BUT since there is NO overlap in the list of characters appearing in each issue, it would not make a difference to the chronology. 

X-Man #4-Flashback 

Characters: Mr. Sinister, Nate Grey (grown to adulthood) 
Sinister working on Nate Grey (seen here in a more or less adult form). Occurs after X-Man Minus One but before the -fb in #1. 

X-Man #1-Flashback ~ X-Man #4-Flashback 

Characters: Nate Grey, Cyclops, Mr. Sinister (as revealed in the X-Man 4 fb retelling of the X-Man 1 fb) 
Nate Grey escapes from the pens with Cyclops's assistance; Mr. Sinister watches from the shadows (as revealed in #4). Occurs after the -fb in #4 and before the -fbs in #3. 

X-Man #3-Flashback (FB 2) 

Characters: Forge, Nate Grey 
Forge finds a young Nate Grey. (Cybernetics may or may not be present; he's wearing a cloak.) This, and the subsequent flashbacks, must be after both the -fb in #1 and XM '96. 

X-Man #3-Flashback (FB 3) 

Characters: Forge, Storm 
Forge kissing Storm (who we can identify by the lightning bolt tattoo over one eye.) 

X-Man #3-Flashback (FB 4) 

Characters: Forge 
Forge tests his cybernetic arm for the first time. 

X-Man #3-Flashback (FB 5) 

Characters: Forge, Brute, Toad, Nate Grey 
Forge watches Brute, Toad and Nate celebrating something-or-other. 

Blink 1 

Characters: 
Blink, Magneto, Morph, Rogue (all X-Men) 
Poppup Ambassador (possibly the Impossible Man) 
Dark Beast 
Holocaust 
Apocalypse 
Blastaar and several other Baluurrians 
Ahmyor 
Notes: Blink is in the X-Men, so this is after Tales of the AOA. The Blink series is set a few months before X-Men:Alpha. 

Blink #2 

Characters: 
Blink 
Ahmyor 
Marcul, Ahmyors steed 

Blink #3 

Characters: 
Blink 
Ahmyor / Annihilus 
Marcul and Tavella, ferecats 
Ahmyors followers 
Blastaar 
Hammat, Meltia and other guards 
Blastaars army 
In a flashback : 
Blink 
Illyana Rasputin 
Sugar Man 

Blink #4 

Characters: 
Blink, Iceman, Magneto, Quicksilver, Rogue, Sabretooth, Storm (all X-Men) 
Nocturne 
Ahmyor / Annihilus 
Blastaar 
Note: The last few pages occur during the end of X-Men: Omega 

X-Men Chronicles #2/6 

Characters: Magneto, Exodus 
The Salvation of Exodus." Magneto and Exodus appear. Should occur not too long before X-Man Alpha, as Exodus is still pretty green in Amazing X-Men. 

X-Men Chronicles #2/3 

Characters: Chamber, Colossus, Shadowcat, Skin 
The Rescue of Chamber." Chamber, Colossus, Shadowcat and Skin appear. Should occur prior to Generation Next #1. 

Factor X #3-Flashback (FB 2) 

Characters: Mr. Sinister, Weapon X, Jean Grey 
Mr. Sinister makes a deal with Weapon X and Jean Grey. This should occur shortly prior to X-Men Alpha. 

X-Men Chronicles #2/2 

Characters: Holocaust 
Pin-up: "Holocaust." Title page; the only pin-up that's not chronologizable. 
I put this one before Alpha, because all of the other pages come before Alpha. There is no specific events going on, just Holocaust performing a culling in an unspecified city. (It could be moved earlier, or later, if someone has a reason to do so.) 

X-Men: Alpha 

Characters: 
Blink, Iceman, Magneto, Morph, Nightcrawler, Quicksilver, Rogue, Sabretooth, Storm, Wildchild (all X-Men) 
Bishop 
Charles Lehnsherr (the son of Rogue and Magneto) 
Nanny (Charles Lehnsherrs robot guardian) 
Gambit (X-Ternals) 
Jean Grey, Weapon X (both former X-Men) 
Angel, owner of the nightclub Heaven 
Karma and Scarlett, Angels employees 
Brian Braddock, Emma Frost, Bolivar Trask, Moira MacTaggert-Trask, Mariko Yashida (all Human High Council) 
Apocalypse 
Abyss, Holocaust, Sinister (all Four Horsemen) 
Beast, Cyclops, Havok (all Mutant Elite Force) 
Sebastian Shaw 
Unus, Infinites leader 
Infinites 
Fred Dukes, one of Beasts test subjects 
Notes: This issue is the jumping off point for AOA titles. All eight of the regular #1s occur AFTER this issue. Bishop first comes to Magnetos attention. 
Now here comes the harder part, Magneto appears in 6 of the 8 #1 issues: Amazing X-Men, Astonishing X-Men, Gambit and the X-ternals, Gen Next, X-Calibre, and X-Man. But not in Factor X or Weapon x 1. 

Astonishing X-Men 1 

Characters: 
Banshee, Blink, Iceman, Magneto, Morph, Nightcrawler, Quicksilver, Rogue, Sabretooth, Storm, Sunfire, Wild Child (all X-Men) 
Charles Lehnsherr, the son of Magneto and Rogue 
Bishop 
Gambit (X-Ternals) 
Prelate Delgado 
Rex 
Apocalypse 
In a flashback : 
Charles Xavier 
Eric Magnus Lehnsherr 
Legion 
Bishop 
Primary location: Ruins of Xaviers mansion 
We know this occurs BEFORE Gambit and the X-Ternals #1 since Gambit is in this issue, getting his briefing. 
We know that this occurs BEFORE X-Calibre #1, as Nightcrawler is in this issue, getting his briefing. 
We know that this occurs BEFORE Amazing X-Men #1, as Quicksilver is in this issue, getting his briefing. 
Also Kurt talks about Kitty and Peters mission in Seattle, so this happens BEFORE Gen Next #1. 

Weapon X #1 

Characters: 
Weapon X 
Jean Grey 
Brian Braddock, Emma Frost, Bolivar Trask, Moira MacTaggert-Trask, Mariko Yashida (all Human High Council) 
Sentinels 
Apocalypse 
Abyss, Holocaust (both Horsemen of Apocalypse) 
Balrog Class Meta-Cyborg 
Beast 
Cyclops 
Havok 
Infinites 
Magma 
Notes: Weapon X and Jean Grey are doing a favor for the Human high Council, this puts this one after X-Men Alpha,(where the two of them bring the Human High Council information) and sometime before X-Universe 1 (where the High council ends up acting on it) The favor that they are doing currently, is to attack the Sea Wall, so as to disable its defenses, to allow for the Great Airlift as seen in Amazing X-Men 1, so this issue must come BEFORE Amazing X-Men 1. Since this mission is successful, the Sentinels are able to penetrate the Sea Wall, and head for North America. 
Cyclops Tells Apocalypse about Sinisters betrayal (which also puts this issue after alpha) Havok is wounded in this issue, beuing fused with a Sentinel hand on a molecular level. (Which put this issue, BEFORE Factor X 1) 

Factor X #1 

Characters: 
Amazon / Elizabeth Guthrie, Aurora, Beast, Bedlam Brothers / Terrence and Jesse Aaronson, Cannonball, Cyclops, Havok, Northstar (all Mutant Elite Force) 
Sinister 
Wolfsbane 
Artemis, Avalanche, Newt, Phantazia, Pyro and other inmates of the pens 
Angel 
Scarlet McKenzie 
Henry Peter Gyrich 
several unnamed mutants and humans at the Heaven nightclub 
Primary locations: Washington DC, New York. 
Sinister is hiding in the statue of Apocalypse, which he destroys at the end of this issue. 
The Dark Beast refers to Havoks injuries, (getting fused with a sentinel hand) so this takes place some time AFTER Weapon X #1. (Long enough for Havok to have made a full recovery.) Beast is upset that there are no new recruits for his body banks, as Apocalypse is still pretending to negotiate with the HHC. (This put this one BEFORE X-universe 1) 
Cyclops says that he hasnt seen Sinister since their disturbing conversation X-Men:Alpha. He breaks into Sinisters personal quarters, but they have already been trashed. 

X-Calibre #1 

Characters: 
Magneto, Nightcrawler (both X-Men) 
Mystique 
Switchback 
Cain Marko 
Destiny 
Angel 
John Proudstar 
Damask, Danielle Moonstar, Dead Man Wade (all Pale Riders) 
Apocalypse 
the Madri 
Notes: 
Kurt spends time making travel arrangements through Warren. (This occurs after Astonishing X-Men 1, when Kurt left the mansion) 
Magneto is at the mansion, trying to persuade Mystique to do his bidding. No other X-Men are seen. 

X-Man #1 

Characters: 
Brute, Forge, Mastermind, Nate / X-Man, Soaron, Toad (all Forges resistance band) 
Theresa 
Magneto (X-Men) 
Bishop 
Essex / Sinister 
Cyclops 
Apocalypse 
Shadow King 
Domino 
Notes: 
Cyclops tells Apocalypse that he has searched Sinisters lab, and that Sinister has disappeared. (This puts this issue AFTER Factor X 1) 
Sinister shows up at the end of the issue, calling himself Essex, and trying to get in god with Forges band. (Again, AFTER Factor X 1) 

Gambit and the X-Ternals #1 

Characters: 
Lila Cheney, Gambit, Guido, Jubilee, Sunspot (all X-Ternals) 
Magneto (X-Men) 
Dr. Peter Corbeau 
Rictor, leader of the Infinites 
Madri, Jamie Madroxs dupes 
Primary location: Morlock tunnels 
Notes: Gambit says that Magneto came back to the Morlock tunnels with him, so this happens after Astonishing X-Men #1. 
Since the Morlock tunnels are the closest destination, and since Gambit is not with Magneto in any of the other number ones (besides Astonishing), and since they were supposed to be traveling together, I have placed this next after Astonishing X-Men 1. 

Generation Next #1 

Characters: 
Chamber, Husk, Know-it-all, Mondo, Skin, Vincente (all Generation Next) 
Colossus, Shadowcat (teachers and tutors of Generation Next) 
Magneto (X-Men) 
Bishop(as a hologram) 
Primary location: Seattle area 
Magneto shows up. Magneto says BEFORE I departed Westchester I gave specific instructions. This puts this one AFTER Astonishing X-Men 1. He also says that Gambit and Nightcrawler are brining him the resources he needs to verify Bishops story. (So this happens after they have left the Mansion as well) 

Amazing X-Men #1 

Characters: 
Banshee, Dazzler, Exodus, Iceman, Magneto, Quicksilver, Storm (all X-Men) 
Bishop 
Charles Lehnsherr, the son of Rogue and Magneto 
Nanny, Charles robot nanny 
Jeremy Graves and his family 
Sentinels 
Arclight, Vanessa Carlysle, Madison Jeffries, Spyne, Yeti (all Brotherhood) 
The Madri 
Abyss 
as Dazzlers Light-Constructs: 
Jean Grey, Weapon X (former X-Men) 
a Sentinel 
Primary locations: X-Mansion, Eastern seaboard 
At the end of this issue, we see the Sentinels arrive in North America, since they left Europe during Weapon X #1, this issue must happen AFTER Weapon X 1. 
Quicksilver remarks that half the team is off on another mission, so this occurs AFTER Astonishing X-Men 1. 
Bishop and Magneto appear back at the mansion. Magneto makes reference to having dispatched Rogues team to stop the cullings, Nighctrawler to seek out his mother, and Peter and Katya to search for Illyana, and Gambit to steal the Mkraan crystal. Since they are already dispatched, this must occur AFTER astonishing 1, Gambit and the X-ternals 1, and Gen Next 1, and X-Calibre 1. 

Astonishing X-Men #2 
Characters: 
Blink, Magneto, Morph, Rogue, Sabretooth, Sunfire, Wild Child (all X-Men) 
Charles Lehnsherr, Magneto and Rogues baby 
Bishop 
Holocaust 
Apocalypse 
Rex 
In flashbacks : 
Sunfire 
Apocalypse 
Nemesis 
Notes: In this issue, Apocalypse learns where the X-Mens base is. This means that this has to occur BEFORE Amazing X-Men #2. 
Bishop and Magneto are at the mansion, with Magnetos son Charles. Bishop says that your X-Men are scattered around the globe 

Amazing X-Men #2 
Characters: 
Banshee, Dazzler, Exodus, Iceman, Storm, Quicksilver (all X-Men) 
Jeremy Graves and his family 
Karma 
Sentinels 
Arclight, Box, Copycat, Spyne, Yeti (all Brotherhood) 
the Madri 
Abyss (Horseman) 
Apocalypse 
Rex 
Sebastian Shaw 
Notes: This one happens after Amazing 1. It also has to Occur BEFORE Weapon X #2, as in this issue, Box and Copycat go to Europe, where they appear in Weapon x 2. 
The great airlift is a success, as Dazzler reprograms the Sentinels, and they ask for the X-Mens help to evacuate the Humans. (This puts this issue, before Weapon X 2, where the humans arrive in Europe.) 
Apocalypse knows out where the X-Mens base is. (This means that this has to occur AFTER Astonishing X-Men 2) 
Karma is arrested in this issue, because Shaw saw Angel talking to Gambit in X-Men:Alpha. This must happen BEFORE Factor X #2, where Scarlet talks about this. 
Weapon X 2 
Characters: 
Weapon X 
Jean Grey 
Brian Braddock, Emma Frost, Bolivar Trask, Moira MacTaggert-Trask, Mariko Yashida (all Human High Council) 
Eurasia Army Soldiers 
Human Escapees from America 
Sentinels 
Box, Copycat (both Brotherhood) 
Clegg, Donald Pierce, Slocum (all Reavers) 
Notes: The Humans arrive in Europe, from the Great Airlift in this issue so this occurs AFTER Amazing X-Men #2. Box and Copycat arrive with them. (Also the Reavers appear in the crowd too.) 
The Reavers attack the Human High Councils airships, foiling their attempt at a First Strike (so this occurs before X-Universe #1) 
Jean leaves Weapon X in this issue,in order to return to the States and warn her friends to get out of the way of the HHCs plans, so this must happen BEFORE Factor x 3) 
Factor X #2 
Characters: 
Amazon, Aurora, Beast, Bedlam Brothers, Cannonball, Cyclops, Havok, Northstar (all Mutant Elite Force) 
Apocalypse 
Wolfsbane 
Tommy Chang, Samantha DuPris, Polaris and other inmates of the pens 
Angel 
Scarlett McKenzie 
Val Cooper 
In flashbacks : 
Rogue, Polaris 
Notes: 
Sinister contacted the Human Council in X-Men:Alpha. 
Apocalypse is not surprised that Sinister has disappeared, and suspects that he is up to some scheme designed to destroy Apocalypse. This puts this after Factor X #1 and X-Man #1. 
Scarlett talks about Karmas arrest, so this issue happens AFTER Amazing X-Men 2. 
Scott releases Polaris from the pens, while Havok gathers evidence on Scott by following him. 

X-Calibre 2 
Characters: 
Nightcrawler 
Mystique 
Switchback 
Cain Marko 
Destiny 
Captain Walt Newell 
John Proudstar 
Callisto 
Damask, Danielle Moonstar, Dead Man Wade (all Pale Riders) 
Apocalypse 
the Madri 
This issue has to occur AFTER Astonishing1, and X-Calibre 1, but other than that there is no real way to tell where it fits in. There is a fairly nondescript Apocalypse appearance, where he talks to Damask. All we know from this is that Darkolme is Magnetos creature, and that one is scheming. This implies that Apocalypse hasnt moved against Magento yet, placing it BEFORE Amazing X-Men 3. 
X-Man 2 
Characters: 
Brute, Forge, Mastermind, Nate, Soaron, Sonique, Toad (all Forges resistance band) 
Magneto (X-Men) 
Charles Lehnsherr, baby of Magneto and Rogue 
Essex / Sinister 
Caliban, Domino, Grizzly (all Apocalypses bounty hunters) 
Rossovitch 
The Madri 
Notes: Magneto is still at the Mansion, with his son Charles. 
This issue has to occur sometime AFTER X-Man 1. 
Gambit and the X-Ternals #2 
Characters: 
Lila Cheney, Gambit, Guido, Jubilee, Sunspot (all X-Ternals) 
Chod, Deathbird, Hepzibah, Raza Longknife (all Starjammers) 
Jonath 
Rictor, leader of the Infinites 
Fang, Gladiator, Hobgoblin, Impulse, Mentor, Nightside, Oracle, Scintilla, Smasher, Starbolt, Titan, Warstar (all Imperial Guard) 
Generation Next #2 
Characters: 
Chamber, Husk, Mondo, Skin, Vincente (all Generation Next) 
Colossus, Shadowcat (teachers and tutors of Generation Next) 
Illyana Rasputin 
Ace, Illyanas friend 
High Foreman Quietus 
Sugar Man 
Various guards 
Unnamed mutant with trident 
An Undercloak 
Notes: There is no particular connections to other issues, except that this would happen sometime AFTER Gen Next 1 (of course.) 

Factor X #3 
Characters: 
Amazon, Beast, Bedlam Brothers, Cannonball, Cyclops, Havok (all Mutant Elite Force) 
Wolfsbane 
Jean Grey 
Angel 
Scarlett McKenzie 
Apocalypse 
Rex 
In flashbacks : 
Cyclops 
Jean Grey 
Weapon X 
Sinister 
Notes: Since Jean is in this issue, it occurs AFTER Weapon X #2. 
The Bedlam Brothers mention Karmas arrest, so this happens AFTER Amazing X-Men 2. They arrest Scarlett in this issue. 
Havok and the Dark beast depose Cyclops, and chain him up with Jean, but Jean and Scott escape. 
Apocalypse tells Rex to shut down McCoys breeding pens. 
Astonishing X-Men #3 
Characters: 
Blink, Magneto, Morph, Rogue, Sabretooth, Sunfire, Wild Child (all X-Men) 
Charles Lehnsherr, Magneto and Rogues baby 
Bishop 
Nanny 
Holocaust 
Infinites 
Apocalypse  BTS (as sensed by Nanny) 
In a flashback : 
Sabretooth, Weapon X (both X-Men) 
Blink 
Notes: Magneto and Bishop are STILL at the mansion with young Charles. Nanny senses a security perimeter breach, and folds up into a cocoon around Charles. This means that this issue happens BEFORE Amazing X-Men #3. We do not get to see who or what has breeched the perimeter. However, according to Magneto, the triggering of Nannys program could have been caused by only one thing: Apocalypse is coming. 
Amazing X-Men #3 
Characters: 
Banshee, Dazzler, Exodus, Iceman, Magneto, Quicksilver, Storm (all X-Men) 
Bishop 
Charles Lehnsherr, the son of Rogue and Magneto 
Nanny, Charles robot nanny 
Angel 
Abyss 
The Madri 
Infinites 
Vanisher 
Shadow King 
Apocalypse 
Notes: Bishop and Magneto go outside to face the assault on the mansion. Apocalypse himself comes to bring in Magneto. He also captures Bishop. At this point, he knows nothing about Bishop, and refers to him as The mysterious stranger rescued by the X-Men in Seattle. (This put this issue BEFORE AOA: The Chosen) 
Since this is the long awaited assault on the mansion, it comes AFTER Astonishing 3, AND any other issue where Magneto is at the Mansion. After this, Magneto is a prisoner of Apocalypse and does not return to the mansion again. 
Nanny has Charles in the Morlock tunnels, so this issue comes BEFORE gambit and the X-ternals 4. 
Warren says Scarlett was arrested yesterday That put this issue AFTER Factor X 3. 
The X-Men return to the mansion, Quicksilver goes to Angel to get information about where Apocalypse has taken Bishop and Magneto. 
The Shadow King probes Bishops mind, and they find out that Bishop is from another reality. (putting this issue before AOA:The Chosen) 
Quicksilver sends Dazzler and Exodus to look for Charles. Quicksilver sends Iceman off to tell Rogue. (putting this BEFORE astonishing x-men 4) He takes the rest of the team to free Bishop. 

Weapon X #3 
Characters: 
Weapon X 
Carol Danvers 
Gateway 
Brian Braddock, Emma Frost, Bolivar Trask, Moira MacTaggert-Trask, Mariko Yashida (all Human High Council) 
Dead Eye, Mangle, Donald Pierce, Vultura (all Reavers) 
Notes: This happens AFTER Weapon x 2 (of course) (Basically Weapon X 3, X-Universe 1 and 2, and Weapon X 4 show what happens in Europe while the rest of the AOA #3 and #4 issues are happening.) 
Logan fight the Reavers, and convinces Gateway to allow the HHC a chance to talk him into leading the armada against Apocalypse. This occurs BEFORE X-universe 1 and 2. 

X-Calibre #3 
Characters: 
Nightcrawler 
Mystique 
Switchback 
Cain Marko 
Destiny 
Douglas Ramsey 
Damask, Dead Man Wade (both Pale Riders) 
Notes: Only has to come after #2, No particular connections to other issues. 
X-Man #3 
Characters: 
Forge, Mastermind, Nate, Soaron, Sonique, Toad (all Forges resistance band) 
Essex / Sinister 
Caliban, Domino, Grizzly (all Apocalypses bounty hunters) 
Notes: Sinister kills Forge. 
This issue continues from #2,and continues into #4, but has no stong ties to any other issues. 
Gambit and the X-Ternals #3 
Characters: 
Lila Cheney, Gambit, Guido, Jubilee, Sunspot (all X-Ternals) 
Chod, Deathbird, Hepzibah, Raza Longknife (all Starjammers) 
Rictor 
Jahf 
Gladiator (Imperial Guard) 
ShiAr Emperor DKen 
Notes: Other than occurring AFTER Gambit and the X-ternals #1, issues 2 and 3 have no strong connections to any of the other issues. 
#3 ends with the group teleporting back to Earth. 

Generation Next #3 
Characters: 
Chamber, Husk, Know-it-all, Mondo, Skin, Vincente (all Generation Next) 
Colossus, Shadowcat (teachers and tutors of Generation Next) 
Illyana Rasputin 
Ace 
May, another prisoner 
Sugar Man 
Hag, Quietus secretary 
Various guards 
Notes: Again, this follows Gen Next #2, but otherwise has no particular strong connections to any other issue. 
Meanwhile on the other side of the world: 
X-universe #1 
Characters: 
Anthony Stark 
Ben Grimm 
Citizens of Eurasia 
Donald Blake 
Gwen Stacy 
Hawkeye (Clint Barton) 
NKim and other Wakanda citizens 
Susan Storm 
The Thing (Bruce Banner) 
Victor Von Doom 
Arcade, Dirigible (Fisk), Owl, Red (Osborne), (all Marauders) 
Empath 
Keeper (Matthew Murdock) 
Members of Rasputins Enhanced Human Army 
Mikhail Rasputin 
Notes: The Fourth Horseman finally shows up, for a peace convoy. THE HHC are still in their crisis session, so this happens DURING/AFTER Weapon X #3. This leaves the Human heroes to meet and Greet Mikhail. 

X-Universe #2 
Anthony Stark 
Ben Grimm 
Bolivar Trask, Moira Mactaggert-Trask, Thunderbolt Ross (all Human High Council Members) 
Bullseye and other Cell block escapees 
Donald Blake 
Frankie, Marta, Rafe, and other Eurasia Citizens 
Gwen Stacy 
Hawkeye (Clint Barton) 
Susan Storm 
The Thing (Bruce Banner) 
Victor Von Doom 
Empath 
Keeper (Matthew Murdock) 
Mikhail Rasputin 
Rasputins Stryfe Force 
Notes: Mikhails peace initiative turns out to be worthless, but it takes most of this issue for the Human heroes to discover this. Mikhail meets Moira and Bolivar Trask, of the HHC. The Human Heroes are captured, break free, and destroy Mikhails ships. The hUman heroes fight Mikhail, and Dr. Blake shoves him through a window, to his death. The Human Heroes take the mothership into orbit to rescue the humans. 
Astonishing X-Men #4 
Characters: 
Blink, Iceman, Magneto, Morph, Rogue, Sabretooth, Sunfire, Wild Child (all X-Men) 
Holocaust 
Apocalypse 
Rex 
Notes: Apocalypse gloats to Magneto, who is still his prisoner. Apocalypse says that he has all but crippled the Eurasian HHC resistance (putting this after Weapon X 3, and X-Universe 1 and 2) 
Holocaust tells Rogue that Apocalypse has captured Magneto and Bishop. (putting this AFTER amazing X-Men 3) 
Iceman shows up at the end, to tell Rogue about Magnetos capture. 
X-Calibre #4 
Characters: 
Damask, Mystique, Nightcrawler, Switchback (all X-Calibre) 
Destiny 
Douglas Ramsey 
Anatoly, Marcus, Wendy and other residents of Avalon 
Shadow King 
Notes: 
Must occur after #3, and BEFORE Amazing X-Men 4, no strong connection to other issues. 
The Age of Apocalypse: The Chosen 
Characters: 
Madri 
Apocalypse 
As images in Apocalypses files: 
Bishop, Magneto, Rogue, Quicksilver, Sabretooth, Storm, Wildchild (all X-Men) 
Colossus, Jean Grey, Weapon X (former X-Men) 
Lila Cheney, Gambit, Guido, Jubilee, Sunspot (all X-Ternals) 
Destiny, Mystique, Nightcrawler (all X-Calibre) 
X-Man 
Angel 
Charles Xavier 
Aurora, Beast, Cyclops, Havok, Northstar (all Factor X) 
Abyss, Holocaust, Mikhail Rasputin, Sinister (Four Horsemen) 
Madri 
Brian Braddock, Emma Frost, Moira MacTaggert-Trask, Bolivar Trask, Mariko Yashida (all Human High Council) 
Notes: This is a simple story, one of the Madri wants to know if the Madri are forgotten or chosen. He looks in Apocalypses files and finds out that the Madri are Chosen, but Apocalypse catches him, changes the status to Forgotten, and kills the inquisitive Madri. By itself this story could go anywhere there is a madri available. However, we must consider that what we see in Apocalypses files is what the Madri sees. 
Since apocalypse is aware of Bishops true nature, this must come AFTER Amazing X-Men 3. 
Also, since there is a listing for X-Calibre, under that Name, it must occur AFTER X-Calibre #4 (as Kurt names the team in that issue.) 



Generation Next #4 
Characters: 
Chamber, Husk, Know-it-all, Mondo, Skin, Vincente (all Generation Next) 
Colossus, Shadowcat (teachers and tutors of Generation Next) 
Illyana Rasputin 
Ace 
Sugar Man 
Notes: This happens after Gen Next 3, and sometime BEFORE X-Men: Amazing X-Men 4, but has no Strong connections to other issues. 
X-Man #4 
Characters: 
Nate, Soaron, Sonique (the survivors of Forges resistance band) 
Magneto (X-Men) 
Cyclops 
Jean Grey 
Sinister 
Apocalypse 
Shadow King 
Notes: Magneto is a captive of Apocalypse, so this issue occurs AFTER Amazing X-Men #3. 
Nate kills Sinister, and then decides to go after Apocalypse. 
Nate ends up in the pens, and runs into Jean and Scott, so this comes AFTER Factor X 3, and BEFORE Factor X #4. 
Factor X #4 
Characters: 
Amazon, Beast, Bedlam Brothers, Cannonball, Havok (all Mutant Elite Force) 
Wolfsbane 
Cyclops 
Jean Grey 
Angel 
Scarlett McKenzie 
Notes: An unidentified rebel along with Scott and Jean have already caused a disturbance, placing this issue AFTER X-Man #4. Jean also references their encounter with Nate. 
The Inifnites finally come after Angel ,placing this AFTER every other appearance that he has (except for X-Men:Omega.) 
Havok releases Scarlett. 
Scott and Jean liberate the breeding pens. She says that they have to get these people out of here, before the High Human Council launches its preemptive strike at the stronghold. 


Gambit and the X-ternals # 4 
Characters: 
Lila Cheney, Gambit, Guido, Jubilee (all X-Ternals) 
Dazzler, Exodus (both X-Men) 
Charles Lehnsherr, the child of Rogue and Magneto 
Rictor 
Apocalypse 
Notes: Dazzler and Exodus appear looking for Charles. This issue happens AFTER Amazing X-Men #3. Jubilee has Charles and the crystal, but Guido betrays her and takes them and brings them to Apocalypse. Gambit and Lila run into Dazzler and Exodus in the tunnels. 

Weapon X #4 
Weapon X 
Gateway 
Brian Braddock, Emma Frost, Bolivar Trask, Moira MacTaggert-Trask, Mariko Yashida (all Human High Council) 
Eurasia Army members 
Carol Danvers, Donald Pierce (both Reavers) 
Infinites 
Apocalypse 
Rex 
Magneto 
genetically altered humans in Apocalypse's lab 
Notes: The HHC convinces gateway to lead the armada against Apocalypse. (Putting this AFTER X-Universe 1 and 2) Magneto is still a prisoner. Mikhail has not reported in from his trip to London (because he died in X-Universe #2) 
The armada takes off, is attacked by the Reavers, defended by Weapon X. Braddock turns traitor. Pierce tries to kill Gateway, but Logan uses the claws that are hidden in his stump to kill Pierce. Gateway teleports the armada to New York. 
This issue happens BEFORE X-Men:Omega..(which is when the armada arrives) 




Amazing X-Men #4 
Characters: 
Banshee, Blink, Dazzler, Exodus, Iceman, Morph, Rogue, Sabretooth, Storm, Quicksilver, Wildchild (all X-Men) 
Bishop 
Colossus, Shadowcat (both Generation Next) 
Illyana Rasputin 
Gambit, Jubilee, Lila Cheney (all X-Ternals) 
Destiny, Nightcrawler (both X-Calibre) 
Jamie Madrox 
The Madri 
Abyss 
Notes: The Madri are completely aware of Bishops being from another reality. Storm, Quicksilver, and the X-Men rescue Bishop. Rogues team returns to the mansion, running into Kitty, Colossus, and Illyana (putting this issue AFTER Generation Next #4, and Astonishing X-Men #4) Rogue heads into the tunnels to look for Charles, but runs into Gambit, Jubilee, Dazzler and Exodus (putting this AFTER Gambit and the X-ternals #4) MAddrox dies, taking the MAdri with him (putting this AFTER AOA: The Chosen) Banshee dies taking Abyss with him. Nightcrawler and Destiny show up at the mansion (putting this AFTER X-Calibre #4) Quicksilvers team brings Bishop back to the mansion. (This is all right BEFORE X-Men:Omega obviously.) 
X-Men:Omega 
Characters: 
Blink, Iceman, Magneto, Morph, Nightcrawler, Rogue, Sabretooth, Quicksilver, Wildchild (all X-Men) 
Colossus, Shadowcat (both Generation Next) 
Gambit, Jubilee (both X-Ternals) 
Bishop 
Destiny 
Illyana Rasputin 
Charles Lehnsherr 
Angel 
Karma 
X-Man 
Cyclops 
Jean Grey 
Weapon X 
Bolivar Trask, Moira MacTaggert-Trask (both Human High Council) 
Apocalypse 
Holocaust 
Rex 
Shadow King 
Beast 
Havok 
Sugar Man 
Guido 
Infinites 
ca 20 years in the past, before the split between AoA and 616 realities: 
Gabrielle Haller, Erik Magnus Lehnsherr, Charles Xavier 
timetraveling 20 years into the past (from the main Marvel Universe): 
Bishop, Iceman, Psylocke, Storm (all X-Men) 
Legion 
Notes: Everyone knows what happens in this issue. This happens AFTER all eight of the #4 issues. The last three pages of Blink 4 show how she is able to escape. Dark Beast, Sugar Man, Holocaust, and Nate make it back to the main Marvel universe through the Mkraan Crystal. The Human High Councils armada strikes, Bishop goes back and changes time by saving Xavier, The AOA is wiped from existence. 
Blink 4 (Last three pages): These three pages show how Blink survives the AOA, and meets Nocturne. 
Characters: Blink, Nocturne 
Age of Apocalypse: 
X-Men Ashcan (Age of Apocalypse) 
X-Men Collectors Preview 
X-MEN CHRONICLES 1 
TALES FROM THE AGE OF APOCALYPSE: SINISTER BLOODLINES 
TALES FROM THE AGE OF APOCALYPSE: BY THE LIGHT 
X-MEN CHRONICLES 2 
(X-man 96) 
X-MAN MINUS ONE 
BLINK 1-4 
X-MEN ALPHA 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 1 
WEAPON X 1 
FACTOR X 1 
X-CALIBRE 1 
X-MAN 1 
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 1 
GENERATION NEXT 1 
AMAZING X-MEN 1 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 2 
AMAZING X-MEN 2 
WEAPON X 2 
FACTOR X 2 
X-CALIBRE 2 
X-MAN 2 
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 2 
GENERATION NEXT 2 
FACTOR X 3 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 3 
AMAZING X-MEN 3 
WEAPON X 3 
X-CALIBRE 3 
X-MAN 3 
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 3 
GENERATION NEXT 3 
X UNIVERSE 1 
X UNIVERSE 2 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 4 
X-CALIBRE 4 
AGE OF APOCALYPSE: THE CHOSEN 1 
X-MAN 4 
FACTOR X 4 
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 4 
GENERATION NEXT 4 
WEAPON X 4 
AMAZING X-MEN 4 
X-MEN OMEGA

Last edited by Dhall on 30 May 2004 06:23 pm; edited 5 times in total

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Posted: 13 May 2004 09:30 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
There is an additional flashback in X-Factor #3. 

It is a flashback with no new information (so we won't have to index it, as it presents the end of Weapon X #2, with Jean leaving Weapon X to fly to America. I mention it, because we'll need to change the fb #'s, and I want us all to be on the same page with this project. (This would be fb1) 
<<<


Good call. I'd not noted that flashback initially precicely because it didn't reveal new information (and got the repeated dialogue wrong to boot). 

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
And X-Man #3 (fb3) 
Forge kissing a unidentified woman with a lightningbolt tattoo over one eye. 

This woman is Storm. We can id her by the hair, and the tattoo, which the AOA Storm has. 
<<<


Ah, well, if the flashback didn't have the washed-out coloring I would've caught that one... really! 

Also: I'd placed Tales from the Age of Apocalypse shortly prior to X-Men Chronicles #2 due to the presence of Gambit but lack of presence of Jean or Logan. I believe that it makes the most sense to place Tales after Jean is kidnapped, and after Weapon X leaves on his own to find her, but before they return (and so before they, and Gambit, formally leave the team in X-Men Chronicles #2). 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 09:42 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Also: I'd placed Tales from the Age of Apocalypse shortly prior to X-Men Chronicles #2 due to the presence of Gambit but lack of presence of Jean or Logan. I believe that it makes the most sense to place Tales after Jean is kidnapped, and after Weapon X leaves on his own to find her, but before they return (and so before they, and Gambit, formally leave the team in X-Men Chronicles #2).  
<<<


You are right. That makes a lot more sense. I'll modify my previous post. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 May 2004 06:48 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Combining my love of TPB extras with my "love" of the AoA... 

The "Twilight of the Age of Apocalypse" has two new story pages in it -- one added to each issue of "X-Universe". 

They don't add much, but they're new material. I'll do little write-ups for them later on down the road. 

Anyone know of any other added pages in the AoA TPBs? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 18 May 2004 09:58 pm    
By Dhall

Jeph, 
Now I'll have to buy them...grrr.... 
Do you have any idea how much extra stuff I've been buying lately, because you found a few canon pages in it? 

Must buy all Canon X-Men related appearances ever...... 

Dave H 

BY the way, are there any AOA What if's with any AOA Canon material?

Last edited by Dhall on 26 May 2004 09:08 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 18 May 2004 10:06 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Ha ha. That's my mission too. 

However ... c'mon, the pages were added to *X-Universe*. Even if you count the AoA X-Men as "canon", that title didn't have any X-characters in it! 

Track it down if you want, but stick it at the tail end of your "must buy" list.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 20 May 2004 12:22 am    
By SeanCurtin

It should be noted that the Death in X-Men Chronicles is a different Death than the one in Tales from the Age of Apocalypse. 

Jahf in Gambit &c. #3 remembers meeting Wolverine in the original Phoenix Saga--in other words, this is the "real" Jahf (presumably he's some sort of multiversal singularity). 

I believe that that's May Parker in the mines alongside Illyana in GENNXT 3. 

I'm not quite sure how the time travel in "Legion Quest" and X-Men: Omega should be handled. The chronologies for Xavier, Magneto, Gabrielle Haller and Apocalypse don't reflect the scenes set in the past, though X-Men Omega makes it pretty clear that this is actually an altered timeline, not an alternate one; in other words, the events of X 40-41, UX 321 and X:OMEGA should be reflected as having occured on the relevant characters' chronologies, even though they were retroactively undone in X:OMEGA. Or should the entire time travel sequence only be recorded in the AoA characters' chronologies? Or should we record them on both versions (my preferred option)? At the very least, Prof. X and Magneto's appearances in X 41 from Xavier's death onwards should be in the AoA chronology, since that is the point at which the timeline irrevocably diverges. 

-Sean

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Posted: 20 May 2004 03:50 pm    
By Dhall

Some excellent points Sean. 

There is only one Jahf in all the multiverse. He guards access to the M'kraan Crystal in all parallel dimensions. His chronology should be listed as such (that his AOA appearances would come in between whatever his MU-616 appearances from before and after the AOA published issues.) 

There is NO such thing as the AOA-Jahf, just the regular one, so he should NOT get an aoa-specific listing. 

I'll check on May Parker, you may be right. 

How to Handle Legion Quest? I hadn't added that to my AOA list, because I was hoping to get a consensus about this before I did it. 

My prefered option would be to list the various back in time appearances in Xavier, Magnus, and Gabby Haller's chronologies, because they did 
actually experience these events in realty (never mind that they only did so due to Legion's time travel ability.) 
It is clear enough in theese issues, that they later remember the events (going from memory) Xavier makes some kind of remark about being in a bar fight with Magnus. 

Now, that part is straightforward. For the AOA characters, I would list them from the point of diverenge onwards, with perhaps a link back to the listings of the pre-diveregnce characters, as the characters who were born Before the AOA took hold would share the same pre-AOA chronology as thier mainstream MU counterparts. So that would mean we would list events from X 41 on in the AOA character's listings with a link back to their main pre-divergence listings. 

For the mainstream MU versions of these characters, I would list all events up to the divergence point, where the mainstream versions simply cease to be, and then list events from X-Men:Omega as that is where the mainstream reality (and thus these characters continuity) is restored. 

The only thing that was actually undone was Xavier's death, Legion still did travel back in time and muck with the timeline after all, he just didn't manage to kill Xavier, in the new X-Men: Omega timeline. 

That the Age of Apocalypse still happened, and then was undone is evident from the fact that characters from that universe were brought over into both Earth-616, and into the Exiles series. (So we know the timeline occured, was canon, and has since ceased to exist.) Also Nate was able to find his way back to the AOA on at least one (documented) occasion. (in X-Man '96) 


If we can agree to handle Legion Quest, either in the manner that I have described, or in some other way that is consistant with the books, I would update the AOA list as soon as I have the time to do it. 

If I've gotten any of my references wrong, it is because I am working from memory at the moment. 

Dave H

Last edited by Dhall on 26 May 2004 09:09 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 20 May 2004 07:04 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
There is NO such thing as the AOA-Jahf, just the regular one, so he should NOT get an aoa-specific listing. 
<<<


I agree; that was the point I was trying to get at. 

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
My prefered option would be to list the various back in time appearances in Xavier, Magnus, and Gabby Haller's chronologies, because they did 
actually experience these events in realty (never mind that they only did so due to Legion's time travel ability.) 
It is clear enough in theese issues, that they later remember the events (going from memory) Xavier makes some kind of remark about being in a bar fight with Magnus. 
<<<


Agreed. The only parts of "Legion Quest" that should be included in the AoA chronology are the parts of X 41 from Xavier's death onwards. I don't know if a cross-reference is necessary from the AoA chronologies. It seems to me that it would be best to list the AoA characters on a separate page entirely, so a note at the beginning of that page that the timeline diverges from X 41 (page 18 not counting ads, panel 4) should suffice. 

I've got "Legion Quest" between UX 161-FB and CX 19/2 in Xavier and Magnus' chronologies, between UX 161-FB and NM 1 on Haller's, and between C2 '99 and C2 -1 on Apocalypse's. Does that work? 

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
That the Age of Apocalypse still happened, and then was undone is evident from the fact that characters from that universe were brought over into both Earth-616, and into the Exiles series. (So we know the timeline occured, was cannon, and has since ceased to exist.) Also Nate was able to find his way back to the AOA on at least one (documented) occasion. (in X-Man '96) 
<<<


It's arguable whether or not the timeline ceased to exist, and if so exactly what that means. I prefer to think that that universe was destroyed, but the timeline that contained it was not, if that makes any sense - as I understand it, if the entirely timeline was destroyed, Nate Grey wouldn't have been able to return to any point in its past, because its past wouldn't be there any more - no timeline means no travelling along that timeline. On the other hand, if the universe was destroyed but not the timeline, it's still possible to travel to a point in time before the destruction; anyone trying to travel there afterwards would find an empty space (similar to what the Fury did to Sir James Jaspers). 

Or, alternately, the timeline wasn't destroyed at all, and was transformed into an alternate timeline rather than an altered present timeline once Bishop prevented Legion from changing the past (in other words, just like every other Marvel time travel story that involves changing the past). We know the crystal wave hit the AoA, but the crystal wave started before the AoA was prevented from occuring, so if the crystal wave did hit it, there might have been less lasting effects than there were in Earth-616. 

Moot point either way, and in no way relevant to chronology, but still quibble-able. 

-Sean

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Posted: 20 May 2004 11:24 pm    
By SeanCurtin

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
It seems to me that it would be best to list the AoA characters on a separate page entirely, so a note at the beginning of that page that the timeline diverges from X 41 (page 18 not counting ads, panel 4) should suffice. 
<<<


Actually, it's page 17 panel 3, between Legion's third and fourth speech balloons, at which point Bishop arrives in X-Men Omega. 

-Sean

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Posted: 21 May 2004 10:53 am    
By Dhall

It would be nice to have a seperate AOA page to list the characters chronologies. I would like to see a seperate page for all of the Mutant X Characters too (as it's a little confusing looking through the listings, and seeing all of the alternate universe versions of a character, when you are looking for the 616 version.) 

It would also be nice to have a sepeate page for the Exiles series characters. Of course this brings up the point of how far do you go in listing minor characters who appear only in one reality. I would say let's not (as it leads to lots of listings for one time characters that we would never see again, from unknown realities.) 

But back to the thread topic, Either a header saying that the reality diverges at Point X (which is as you said page 17 panel 3, between Legion's third and fourth speech balloons, at which point Bishop arrives in X-Men Omega) or links from the main listings for the few characters who would have pre-AOA apps. would be fine with me. 
Whichever way would be less confusing to MCP readers, but still contain all of the relevant information would be the best. 


Re: May Parker....and this is lifted from Uncanny X-Men.net 


May seems to be the counterpart for Spidermans Aunt May, however X-Universe #1 shows May Parkers gravestone. 


So, we have two different issues, with two different things going on. I would think that we could resolve this in one of two ways: 

1) May Parker is dead, and we believe that she is buried, and that May in GenNext 3 is just that, a prisoner named May who appears in Gen Next 3. 

2) May Parker is belived to have died, and a gravestone was set up, but she was really taken prisoner by Apocalypse's forces. 

I prefer #2, because it seems to be what the writer of gen next 3 intended. what does everyone else think? 

Dave H 


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Posted: 21 May 2004 01:53 pm    
By SeanCurtin

I agree about Mutant X and Exiles characters getting separate pages. The same should probably be done for Heroes Reborn-specific characters, too, although that's not so much of an issue as most of the relevant issues haven't had those characters' appearances listed yet. 

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
So, we have two different issues, with two different things going on. I would think that we could resolve this in one of two ways: 

1) May Parker is dead, and we believe that she is buried, and that May in GenNext 3 is just that, a prisoner named May who appears in Gen Next 3. 

2) May Parker is belived to have died, and a gravestone was set up, but she was really taken prisoner by Apocalypse's forces. 

I prefer #2, because it seems to be what the writer of gen next 3 intended. what does everyone else think? 
<<<


Agreed, I prefer #2. 

-Sean

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Posted: 21 May 2004 07:31 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Can we *prove* it was May Parker in the Gen Next series? 

There's only so far that I feel comfortable taking assumptions... 

(And speaking of two writers taking the same character -- check out Factor X #1. That's obviously the Toad and Callisto there, but -- whoops -- thanks to character conflicts, they became heavily-edited speech bubbles and new characters named Newt and Artemis.) 

Honestly, the overall AoA page is going to be so small, we can probably get away with a listing for "MAY (PARKER?)". But I wouldn't want to go ahead and decide that it MUST be her -- simply because there's evidence, just as compelling, that shows she's dead. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 21 May 2004 10:17 pm    
By Dhall

See that's the problem with option #2, that we are forced to make an assumption. I still like it better, but am afriad that we may have to go with option #1, and just list her as May. 

Dave H

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Posted: 21 May 2004 11:31 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Fair enough. I suppose a cross-reference from May Parker's entry is in order, though (something along the lines of "Note: may the same character as May from GENNXT 3"). 

-Sean

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Posted: 21 May 2004 11:42 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Sure. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 May 2004 10:55 pm    
By Dhall

Okay, I have added X-Men 41 to my Age of Apocalypse Annotated list 
(so you don't have to go through the whole thread, I'll post that here too.) 

I've added the Legion Quest fb's for the regular timeline characters, in a Legion Quest thread in the MU forum. 

I have not recieved very much feedback on my issue order for the AOA. I had kind of hoped that you guys would nitpick it all to heck, and then we could rebuild it......I know this list can't be perfect, right? 

Well my next step with the AOA will be to build MCP listings for the Big Three, Magneto, Bishop, and Apocalypse. We'll have to check them to see if their storylines make sense in that order. If they do, it will be possible to make chronologies for all AOA characters. 

BY the way, does anyone know of any AOA-canon pages in any other books (like the tpb that Jeph mentioned) that we would need to add? I would much rather add stuff in now, then later on. 

Thanks to Sean and Jeph for contributing to the AOA project! 

Dave H 


Note: The AOA Timeline diverges from X-Men 41 Page 18 panel 4. 

X-Men 41 
Characters: Magneto, Bishop, Xavier (First Appearance of the AOA versions of these characters) 

Xavier is killed in the past be his son from the future. This paradox causes, Legion, Psylocke, Storm, and Iceman to disappear, as there were no X-Men to come back in time, cause Xavier never created the team, etc. Magneto cradles Xavier in his arms, and weeps. Bishop, already time displaced remains the SOLE SURVIVOR of a world which is now LOST, possibly forevermore! 
(This issue has to occur before anything else set in the AOA Timeline, as it is in this issue, that the timeline diverges from the mainstream MU.)

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Posted: 26 May 2004 04:26 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
I have not recieved very much feedback on my issue order for the AOA. I had kind of hoped that you guys would nitpick it all to heck, and then we could rebuild it......I know this list can't be perfect, right? 
<<<


I'd put X-Men Chronicles #2/2 right before X-Men Alpha; Astonishing X-Men #1 reveals that Holocaust is directly responsible for the most recent cullings, and the bodies in X-Men Alpha must be fairly recently dead. 

For the monthly series, I tried to keep them as close to publication order as possible; it makes sense to me to keep the #1 issues together in the same time frame, same for the #2s, etc. 

I'd disagree with the way you put several series' last few issues together chronologically, as all of the series occur more or less concurrently with one another over a fairly short span of time. Granted, for some of them it doesn't make any difference for the character chronologies, but placing the end of one group's mission before the midway point of another's mission means that the former group must have been sitting on their thumbs for a good part of the crossover. 

I had Factor X #1 and X-Man #1 both occuring directly following Weapon X #1; one would assume that Havok would get medical attention shortly after his injury in Weapon X, and that Sinister wouldn't waste any time finding Nate. Plus, X-Men Alpha suggests that Sinister is basically on his way out the door when he speaks with Scott, and he leaves in Factor X #1. I'd also placed Weapon X #1 at an earlier point (just after Astonishing X-Men #1) in keeping in with publication order. 

Apocalypse's presence is detected by Nanny in Astonishing X-Men #3, and arrives at the mansion in Amazing X-Men #3, so he can't appear elsewhere between the former and the latter. I placed AMAZX 3 immediately following ASTONX 3 in my listing. 

So here's the revised order I had the crossover in, using the notations I suggested earlier in the thread: 

X:ALPHA 
ASTONX 1 
WX 1 
FX 1 
XM 1 
X-CALIBRE 1 
GAM&XT 1 
GENNXT 1 
AMAZX 1 
ASTONX 2 
AMAZX 2 
WX 2 
FX 2 
XM 2 
X-CALIBRE 2 
GAM&XT 2 
GENNXT 2 
ASTONX 3 
AMAZX 3 
WX 3 
FX 3 
XM 3 
X-CALIBRE 3 
GAM&XT 3 
GENNXT 3 
X-U 1 
X-U 2 
ASTONX 4 
WX 4 
X-CALIBRE 4 
AOA:CHOSEN 
XM 4 
FX 4 
GAM&XT 4-FB 
GAM&XT 4 
GENNXT 4 
AMAZX 4 
X:OMEGA 
BLINK 4 (last few pages) 

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Well my next step with the AOA will be to build MCP listings for the Big Three, Magneto, Bishop, and Apocalypse. We'll have to check them to see if their storylines make sense in that order. If they do, it will be possible to make chronologies for all AOA characters. 
<<<


Bishop's chronology already includes his AoA appearances (minus XM 1), as the AoA Bishop was merged with the real Bishop in X:OMEGA. There don't seem to be any issues with the order of what's listed in his chronology, though your placement of XM 1 would differ from mine. 

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
X-Men 41 
Characters: Magneto, Bishop, Xavier (First Appearance of the AOA versions of these characters) 
<<<


AoA's Apocalypse and Gabrielle Haller could both get BTS appearances here. We know that Haller is present, and we just saw the Earth-616 Apocalypse reacting to the events of the issue a few pages prior; his AoA counterpart would retain his observations of these events, which is one of the main reasons why he rules the AoA timeline (he awoke ten years sooner, in a world with fewer, less experienced active heroes to stop him). 

-Sean

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Posted: 26 May 2004 09:18 pm    
By Dhall

Excellent Sean, this is what I was hoping for. I'll look at all of your ideas. I have no real objections to moving something up, if it doesn't affect character placement. I wasn't trying to construct a perfect timeline (Jeph is the king of these) just to create a basis for the character chronologies. 
And as far as character placement, keep the ideas and the nitpicks coming in. We're going to get AOA in the MCP......

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Posted: 26 May 2004 10:41 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

AoA Bishop did NOT merge with regular Bishop in X-Men Omega. 

AoA Bishop faded away after he severed the AoA timeline. ("I, too, fade, and with me all memory of your crime.") Regular Bishop somehow has a few of AoA Bishop's memories, but I attribute that to AoA Bishop's cyclical absorption and rechanneling of Legion's telepathic energies -- surely our Bishop absorbed some of their residue. 

So, the AoA Bishop appearances shouldn't be in the "real" Bishop's chronology. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 May 2004 11:07 pm    
By Dhall

That's why it's always puzzled me a bit that the AOA appearances were in Bishops listing in the MCP. 

I like Sean's suggestions for the #1 issues...I'll try and look at those this week. They certainly sound plausible. 

It doesn't really seem to make any difference if we move all the #1's, then #2's etc. together. It doesn't change the chronology at all, and it doesn't put things into a strict timeline order either (there's stuff in X-Man for example that continues directly from the previous issue, and the true "breaks" are in the issue, and not between them. One would have to breakup some of the issues to get a proper timeline.) 

So it's really a preference thing. I have a feeling that more people would prefer to have the #1's, then 2#'s, etc. together than the way I have things listed, but again it doesn't change the chronology at all. 

I've seen several lists like Sean's, but with different orders within the #'s. I don't think it makes a bit of difference, for example, that Sean has XM 2, before X-Calibre 2, and I have them the other way around..... 

Sean, I also like your idea of placement for X-Men Chronicles 2/2. It could go before any of the cullings, but since Blink wasn't published until way after Chron 2, we might as well assume that it's a reference to Alpha. 

My list already has Amazing 3, following Astonishing 3, so I agree with you on that one. 

Dave H

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Posted: 26 May 2004 11:22 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
I've seen several lists like Sean's, but with different orders within the #'s. I don't think it makes a bit of difference, for example, that Sean has XM 2, before X-Calibre 2, and I have them the other way around..... 
<<<


Actually, double-checking, it probably ought to be the way you have it (X-Calibre, then X-Man). X-Calibre #4 is referenced as having already occured in X-Man #4, which suggests that the other issues of X-Man ought to be placed after, not before, the concurrently published issues of X-Calibre. 

-Sean

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Posted: 27 May 2004 07:38 pm    
By Dhall

Okay, so our changes to #1's give us the following: 

ASTONX 1 - Magneto & Bishop at mansion, Apocalypse at his citadel 
WX 1 - Apocalypse at his citadel 
FX 1 - Sinister is on Liberty Island (he blows up statue of apocalypse) 
X-CALIBRE 1 - Magneto is at mansion (talking to Mystique), Apocalypse at his citadel 
XM 1 - Magneto & Bishop are at the mansion (Bishop accuses Mag of not telling the X-Men the truth), Apocalypse is at his citadel, Sinister shows up looking for Nate 
GAM&XT 1 - Magneto is in Morlock tunnels with Gambit 
GENNXT 1 - Magneto is in Seattle to see Colossus and Shadowcat 
AMAZX 1 - Magneto has returned to the mansion, Bishop is present 

This seems to make sense to me in terms of Magneto's trip. It also makes Sinister's appearances flow in a more logical fashion, as Sean had suggested. 

Dave H

Last edited by Dhall on 27 May 2004 09:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 27 May 2004 07:57 pm    
By Dhall

There's not too much overlap with the #2's: 

ASTONX 2 - Magneto & Bishop (at mansion), Apocalypse (in his citadel) 
(Apocalypse discovers that the mansion, is Magneto's base) 
AMAZX 2 
WX 2 
FX 2 - Apocalypse (in his citadel) 
X-CALIBRE 2 - Apocalypse (in his citadel) 
XM 2 -Magneto(at mansion), Sinister 
GAM&XT 2 
GENNXT 2

Last edited by Dhall on 28 May 2004 02:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 27 May 2004 08:16 pm    
By Dhall

#3's: 

FX 3 -Apocalypse (in his citadel) (Note: Scarlett is arrested) 
ASTONX 3 -Magneto& Bishop(at the mansion) 
AMAZX 3 -Apocalypse, Magneto, Bishop (Apocalypse captures them) 
(Note: Scarlett was captured yesterday) (This issue follows directly from ASTONX 3) 
WX 3 
X-CALIBRE 3 
XM 3 - Sinister 
GAM&XT 3 
GENNXT 3 
X-U 1 (these come between WX 3 & 4) 
X-U 2 (these come between WX 3 & 4)

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Posted: 27 May 2004 08:51 pm    
By Dhall

and the #4's: 

ASTONX 4 - Magneto & Apocalypse (both in Apocalypse's citadel) 

X-CALIBRE 4 
AOA:CHOSEN - Apocalypse 
XM 4 - Magneto & Apocalypse (bothin Apocalypse's citadel), Sinister 
FX 4 

GAM&XT 4 -NOW 
GAM&XT 4 -LATER Apocalypse (questions Rictor) 
GENNXT 4 

WX 4 - Gateway teleports the entire armada across the Atlantic (in X:Omega they destroy the midwest, then move on Manhattan. This issue must proceed Omega by a very brief amount of time, less than an hour, which is why I put it here.) Apocalypse & Magneto (at Apocaypse's citadel) 

AMAZX 4 -Bishop (freed by the X-Men) 
X:OMEGA -Magneto & Apocalypse (in Apocalypse's citadel), Bishop (with X-Men) The Armada blows away the Midwest, then moves on Manhattan (Armageddon minus thirty minutes, etc.) The real universe is restored, and the AOA comes to an end. 
BLINK 4 (last three pages) 


By the way, Gambit & The X-ternals 4 does not include a flashback portion, rather as Jeph would say, it takes place in two different time periods. The part with Dazzler, Exodus, Gambit, etc. takes place in a time period called NOW (and sometimes called EARLIER) (which rules out that it's a flashback) and the part with Apocalypse and Rictor occurs in a time period called LATER. 

Dave H

Last edited by Dhall on 30 May 2004 11:01 am; edited 3 times in total

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Posted: 28 May 2004 01:03 am    
By SeanCurtin

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
FX 2 - Magneto (rescues prisoners from the pen, but not Lorna) 
<<<


That's not Magneto; it's Cyclops using an image inducer. 

Also, I believe this issue is the first time that someone's used genetic testing to determine conclusively that Polaris is not Magneto's daughter. 

-Sean

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Posted: 28 May 2004 03:14 am    Post subject: Polaris
By dimadick

"Also, I believe this issue is the first time that someone's used genetic testing to determine conclusively that Polaris is not Magneto's daughter." 

And probably the last as well. Uncanny X-Men #442 (June, 2004) uses genetic testing to determine conclusively that she shares a father with Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver. Another difference betweet the Earth-616 and the AOA timeline?

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Posted: 28 May 2004 04:59 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

We-e-e-elll... Polaris CLAIMS to have proved that she's Magneto's daughter. But then, Polaris is insane. 

Yes, I realise Austen clearly intends the claim to stand, but I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see it swept aside once he's gone.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 May 2004 05:33 am    
By dimadick

I wouldn't be surprised either way. But at least Austen did not mess with a character's long established personal history. I personally find it more acceptable than Bill Mantlo's revelation that Wanda and Pietro aren't even related to Whizzer and Miss America. Polaris' past remains mostly unexplored. Some information is better than none at all.

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Posted: 28 May 2004 02:43 pm    
By Dhall

Sean, your right, I flipped theough that issue really fast. I will correct and remove the reference. 

Thanks, 

Dave

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Posted: 29 May 2004 08:57 am 
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

dimadick wrote: 
>>>
But at least Austen did not mess with a character's long established personal history. 
<<<


Er, yes, he has. Polaris was originally introduced as the alleged daughter of Magneto. That claim was discredited in X-MEN #52 (January 1969) and lay undisturbed for the following 34 years. I'd say that was fairly long established.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 May 2004 12:28 pm    
By dimadick

The discradation was rather weak in the first place. Newspaper articles at their best are not particularly reliable sources on family history. Since then the only look at Polaris' background had been Zaladane's doubtfull claim of being her sister. Concequently Polaris' origin story is far from being fully explored and established.

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Posted: 29 May 2004 01:51 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

That's not the point. You said it wasn't long-established history. I'm saying that it's been the established canonical position for 34 years.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 May 2004 08:58 pm    
By Dhall

It wasn't just newspaper articles and the like. Bobby went and got signed affidavits from her adoptive family (who were relatives of her dead parents) testifying as to the fact that she was not Magneto's daughter, and that her real parents had died in the plane accident. 

Not as conclusive as a DNA test, but the original storyline had been written back in 1969, before such things. 

No one is saying that Polaris' family history has been well explored, as it clearly hasn't been, but the claim that she wasn't Magneto's daughter has stood for many many years. 

Dave H

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Posted: 29 May 2004 09:13 pm    
By Dhall

Back to the AOA.... 

Here is the chronology I have for the Big Three (Magneto, Apocalypse, and Bishop) If everyone agrees that these are correct, we can go ahead with chronology for all of the AOA Characters. 

AOA Bishop 
XM 41 
X:ALPHA 
ASTONX 1 
XM 1 
AMAZX 1 
ASTONX 2 
ASTONX 3 
AMAZX 3 
AMAZX 4 
X:OMEGA 

AOA APOCALYPSE 
XCHRON 1 
ASTONX 2-FB 
BLINK 1 
X:ALPHA 
ASTONX 1 
WX 1 
X-CALIBRE 1 
XM 1 
ASTONX 2 
FX 2 
X-CALIBRE 2 
FX 3 
ASTONX3-BTS 
AMAZX 3 
ASTONX 4 
AOA:CHOSEN 
XM 4 
GAM&XT 4 
WX 4 
X:OMEGA 

AOA MAGNETO 
X 41 
XCHRON 1 
XCHRON 2/5 
XM 3-FB 
TAOA:BTL 
XCHRON 2 
XM '96 
BLINK 1 
BLINK 4 
XCHRON 2/6 
X:ALPHA 
ASTON X 1 
X-CALIBRE 1 
XM 1 
GAM&XT 1 
GENNXT 1 
AMAZX 1 
ASTONX 2 
XM 2 
ASTONX 3 
AMAZX 3 
ASTONX 4 
XM 4 
WX 4 
X:OMEGA 

Please let me know if this works for you, and especially if I've left out any issues. 

Dave H

Last edited by Dhall on 30 May 2004 11:05 am; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 30 May 2004 12:15 am    
By SeanCurtin

Apocalypse also appears in WX 4 and is BTS in ASTONX 3 (Nanny initiates a program that Magneto says is only triggered by the presence of Apocalypse). As I suggested earlier, AMAZX 3 should directly follow ASTONX 3 in the chronologies - otherwise, Apocalypse goes to Westchester (ASTONX 3-BTS), inexplicably goes home to handle his middle management (FX 3), then returns to Westchester for the long-awaited battle with Magneto (AMAZX 3). 

The hologram of Bishop in GENNXT 1 could count as a BTS appearance for him. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 12:33 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Dude, Sean, I just noticed -- you're in Mass.? 

I'M in Mass.! 

Neat. Close-by chronologist. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 01:00 am    
By SeanCurtin

Yup, a little over two hours from Boston. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 10:59 am    
By Dhall

Thanks Sean. 
Yes AmazX 3 does immediatly follow Astonx 3. in Amazx3 Magneto says that the program running means only one thing "Apocalypse is coming." That should be enough to qualify for a BTS. 

I'm not so sure that Bishop's hologram would. Jeph what do you think about that? 

I will add in WX 4 to Apocalypse's chronology, and the BTS in Astonx3. 
Also Magneto appears in WX 4 (though he is just off panel in the room next to Apocalypse.) This should qualify for a full appearance. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 06:28 pm    
By Dhall

I've updated my AOA annotated list (see the first page of this thread) and have added some thigns from TAOA:SB which we didn't have listed. (The two flashbacks, and the first five pages, now get thier own listing, as they happen 5 years in the past.) 

Tales from the Age of Apocalypse: Sinister Bloodlines FB 

Characters: Corsair, Kate Summers, Alex Summers (Havok), Scott Summers (Cyclops) 

The Summers family are flying in Corsairs plane, when it is attacked by a Shiar Warship. Kate pushes Scott and Alex out of the plane with the one reminaing parachute. 


Tales from the Age of Apocalypse: Sinister Bloodlines FB 

Characters: Corsair, Kate Summers, Shiar, Chod, Hepzibah, Raza 

Corsair and Kate are taken prisoner by the Shiar, and subjected to terrible experiments. Kate dies from this treatment. Later, Corsair is thrown in a cell with Chod, Hepzibah, and Raza. They break out, steal a ship, and spend years frightin the Shiar. 

These two flashbacks occur after the divergence point from the main universe, and therefore count as new flashbacks (for the AOA.) 

I listed the two flashbacks after XM 41, and before the Factor-X 2 fb's. 

Tales from the Age of Apocalypse: Sinister Bloodlines (First Five Pages) 
Characters: Sinister, Corsair, Havok, Cyclops, Dark Beast 
This happens five years before the main part of this issue. Corsair returns to Earth, his ship crashes into the bay, near Apocalypses citadel. Scott and Alex fight each other, but Alex cheats by using his power. Sinister reprimands him for that. McCoy (who is still human looking, so this is before he transformed into the dark beast) tells Sinister about the downed space craft. 

I listed this before X-Men Chronicles # 2/4, as Mc Coy hadn't experimented on himself, and become bestial in appearacne yet, something that had happend by X-Men Chronicles # 2/4. 

Also since Apocalypse's citadel already stood, I placed it as late as possible, which is right after Astonishing X-men #2-Flashback. 

There is also a brief FB in X-Man -1 with Scott Summers as a child. Nate uses his powers to see the past. He sees Scott standing on a desk, clowning around at the orphanage. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 10:24 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
I'm not so sure that Bishop's hologram would [qualify for a BTS]. Jeph what do you think about that? 
<<<

Yeah, I don't really think it should either. He's not "behind the scenes" by any definition -- Magneto's just showing around a high-tech picture of him. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 86

Posted: 10 May 2004 04:18 pm    Post subject: X-Men vol. 1/vol. 2
By SeanCurtin

The Key lists the series abbreviated as X as being X-MEN, when it should actually be listed as X-MEN Vol. 2. X-MEN Vol. 1 ran for 141 issues before the indicia started calling it UNCANNY X-MEN. 

I suppose listing MIGHTY THOR, MIGHTY AVENGERS, INVINCIBLE IRON MAN etc in the Key would be a bit much, although a lot of people do refer to THOR as MIGHTY THOR. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 09:52 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Except nobody anywhere really calls Uncanny X-Men "X-Men vol.1". We've all gotten used to calling it "UNcanny X-Men", and thinking of the early issues as "Uncanny". (Heck, the word "Uncanny" started appearing with regularity on the cover of issue #112, even though the indicia change hit on #142). 

I wouldn't call the current volume "X-Men vol.2" -- but I would call it "X-Men (1991)" or something like that. 

Just like I wouldn't call the upcoming relaunched "New X-Men" series "New X-Men vol. 2", just because "X-Men" retitled itself "New X-Men" for 41 issues. 

What I'm thinking is, in the section of the key that's alphabetical by title, we should have double listings, like this: 

New X-Men (2001, see X-Men) - X 
New X-Men (2004) - NX 
... 
Uncanny X-Men - UX 
... 
X-Men (1963, see Uncanny X-Men) - UX 
X-Men (1991, see also New X-Men) - X 


And in the section that's alphabetical by abbreviation, it should look like this: 

NX - New X-Men (2004) 
... 
UX - X-Men (1963) / Uncanny X-Men 
... 
X - X-Men (1991-present) / New X-Men (2001-2004) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 87

Posted: 07 Apr 2004 01:00 pm    Post subject: Various errata
By SeanCurtin

I'm assuming that the BLADE listed in the MCP is the BLADE: CRESCENT CITY BLUES one-shot. That was actually the second Blade title--there was a BLADE: THE VAMPIRE HUNTER series published after NIGHTSTALKERS ended. So the one-shot listed as BLADE should either be retitled to BLADE:CCB or BLADE2. 

All text on K from KNIGHT, SEAN down is displayed in red. 

And finally, ELEKTRA Vol. 2 isn't listed on the Key.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 03:46 pm    
By michel

All text on G from GAUNTLET II is displayed in bold.

			*	*	*

Thread 88

Posted: 09 May 2004 05:04 pm    Post subject: Further typos
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

The following all have codes that are not in the key -- presumably typos. 

Wherever possible I validated that my suggested correction was actually the right code. 

In some case I just ASSUMED it: 
- if the true title was blatantly obvious 
- if I did not have the issue to validate the appearance 


BALDWIN, MADELYNE "MADDIE" NAYLOR 
NW 32 
*DAWK 27 (s/b DHAWK 27) 
NW 37 

BANSHEE/SEAN CASSIDY 
GENX -1 
*X-FOR 31-FB (s/b XFOR 31-FB) 
UX 26-BTS 
BERSERKER II 
*FRANK 16 (assumption FMON 16) 

BLACK KNIGHT V/DANE WHITMAN 
A 285 
*MEPHVS 4 ~ T 381 (s/b MEPHV. 4 ~ T 381) 
XVSA 1 

BLACK TALON II/SAMUEL DAVID BARONE 
WM2 24 
*WMS 25 (s/b WM2 25) 
DPOOL3 29 

BLACK TOM CASSIDY 
XFOR 91-FB 
*X-FOR 31-FB (s/b XFOR 31-FB) 
UX 103-FB 
. . . . . 
GENX 25 
*SM 84-BTS (s/b S-M 84-BTS) 
UX 361 

BLACK WIDOW II/NATASHA ROMANOVA 
CHAMP 15 
*GZIL 3 (assumption GZILL 3) 
IM@ 4 

BLARE/ 
*MTU2 1 (s/b M/TU2 1 ) 

BULLSEYE II/BENJAMIN POINDEXTER 
DPOOL3 16 
*DD3 4 (s/b DD2 4 ) 
*DD3 5 (s/b DD2 5 ) 
DPOOL3 28 

BUSHKIN, BARNEY 
PPTSS 46 
*SW 29-BTS (s/b S-W 29-BTS ) 

ASM 208 
BYRNE, JOHN 
UX 121 
*THING 7/2 (s/b TG 7/2 ) 
FF 262 

CHARLIE-27, CAPTAIN 
A 181 
*MSM/ 23-BTS (assumption MSM 23-BTS) 
M/TU 86 

CH'THON 
A 187-FB 
M/CHIL 1-FB (s/b M/CHL 1-FB ) 
ASM@ 22/3-FB 
A 187-FB-BTS 
UX@ 12/3-FB 
*{M/CHIL 1} (s/b M/CHL 1) 
*M/CHIL 2 (s/b M/CHL 2 ) 
A 185-BTS 
A 186-BTS 
A 187 
*SW 44 (s/b S-W 44) 
DRSTR3 72-BTS 

COMET MAN/DR. STEPHEN BECKLEY 
*COM 1 (assumedCOMET 1) 
*COM 2 (assumedCOMET 2) 
*COM 3 (assumedCOMET 3) 
*COM 4 (assumedCOMET 4) 
*COM 5 (assumedCOMET 5) 
*COM 6 (assumedCOMET 6) 
FF 315 

DAYTRIPPER/AMANDA SEFTON 
UX 179 
*CRYSTAR 6 (assumedCRYS 6) 
UX 188 


more to follow...

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 May 2004 11:25 pm    
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

DEATHCHARGE 
*NAMOR@ 4/2 (s/b N@ 4/2) 

DELGADO, FATHER 
C&D2 4 
*D&D2 5 (s/b C&D2 5) 
C&D2 6 

DR. DRUID/ANTHONY LUDGATE/"ANTHONY DRUID" 
A 285 
*MEPHVS 4 ~ T 381 (s/b MEPHV. 4 ~ T 381 ) 
XVSA 1 

DR. STRANGE II/STEPHEN STRANGE 
DRSTR3 16 
*DTSTR3 16/2 (s/b DRSTR3 16/2) 
DRSTR3 16 

ESON [CELESTIAL] 
*WI 23/2 (s/bWI? 23/2) 
{E 7} 

FALCON/SAM WILSON 
AWC 55 
*MSH3 2/7 (s/b M/SH3 2/7 ) 
A@ 19/5 

FANDRAL [ASGARDIAN] 
JIM -1 
*T:GS 2 (s/b T:G 2) 
T@ 2 

GAMMENON [CELESTIAL] 
*WI 23/2 (s/b WI? 23/2 
T 300-FB 

GEIRRODUR 
JIM 101/2 
*T:GS 2 (s/b T:G 2) 
JIM 504 

GEMINI II 
DEF 51 
*DEV 65 (???? I do not know what this should be. My first thought was DEF 65 but I cant see GEMINI II there.) 
S-H 12-FB 

GRIFFITH, D.W. 
PM 41 
PM&andIF 56 (assumed PM&IF 56 ) 

Ditto. 
PM&andIF 58 
PM&andIF 59 
PM&andIF 60 
PM&andIF 63 
PM&andIF 66 
PM&andIF 67 
PM&andIF 71 
PM&andIF 73 
PM&andIF 76/2 
PM&andIF 79 
PM&andIF 83 
PM&andIF 84 
PM&andIF 88 
PM&andIF 89 
PM&andIF 90 
PM&andIF 93 
PM&andIF 94 
PM&andIF 95 
PM&andIF 96 
PM&andIF 97 
PM&andIF 98 
PM&andIF 100 
PM&andIF 102 
PM&andIF 105 
PM&andIF 108 
PM&andIF 111 
CAGE 6 

GRIM REAPER/ERIC WILLIAMS 
A 160 
*V&andSW 3 (assumed V&SW 3) 
WCA2 1-BTS 
*V&andSW2 1 (assumed V&SW2 1) 
WCA2 2 
*V&andSW2 2 (assumed V&SW2 2) 
*V&andSW2 12 (assumed V&SW2 12) 
WOSM 46 

HERCULES [GREEK GOD] 
A 38-FB 
*M/PV 10/2 (??? another one I couldnt figure out) 
A 265-FB 
. . . . . 
CHAMP 4 
*GR 17 (s/bGR2 17) 
CHAMP 5 
. . . . . 
CHAMP 15 
*GZIL 3 (assumedGZILL 3) 
IM@ 4 

HOGUN [ASGARDIAN] 
JIM -1 
*T:GS 2 (s/bT:G 2) 
T@ 2 

HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND 
HUMAN TORCH 1 
*INVADERS 22-FB (s/bINV 22-FB) 
SAGAHT 2 

IKARIS/IKE HARRIS [ETERNAL] 
E2 4-FB 
*WI 29/2 (s/bWI? 29/2) 
X:HY 21 

IMPOSSIBLE MAN 
H2 417 
*XFOR&C '95 (s/bXF&C 95) 

INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUE STORM RICHARDS 
FF 26 
*MCP 18/4-FB (s/bM/CP 18/4-FB) 
ST 120 

JAMESON, COL. JOHN 
COTL 37 
*M/PM 45 (s/bM/PRM 45) 
*M/PM 46 (s/bM/PRM 46) 
M/TU 36 

JOHNSON, LYNDON BAINES 
CA:SL 1-FB (CA:SL vol 1 is not in the KEY. I do not have it so I cannot validate if that is where this FB is from. I am not spotting Johnson in CA:SL2 1 unless its more of a BTS because someone signed an executive order. Then again I might not recognize Mr Johnson even if I DID see him!) 

JUNIPER, JONATHAN "JUNIOR" 
SGTF 1 
*SGFT 2 (s/bSGTF 2) 
CS 1 

KINGPIN/WILSON FISK 
IM3 37 
*SM:TW 4 (assumedTW 4) 
DD2 21 

KRAVEN THE HUNTER/SERGEI KRAVINOFF 
COTL 33 
*M/CHILL 4 (s/bM/CHL 4) 
PPTSS 2 

LILITH/ANGEL O'HARA/"LILY DRAKE" 
TOD MAG 5-FB 
TOD MAG 5-FB 
{GSCH 1} 
. . . . . 
TOD 67 
TOD MAG 5 
TOD MAG 6/2 
UX@ 6 

If these TOD MAG entries refer to TOMB OF DRACULA VOL. 2 (MAGAZINE), the listed key code is TOD2. If not, then TOD MAG is missing from the key. 

LOAN SHARK 
*GR 65 (s/bGR2 65) 

LOBO 
RW 7 
M/CHILL 3 (s/bM/CHL 3) 
M/CHILL 5 (s/bM/CHL 5) 
M/CHILL 6 (s/bM/CHL 6) 
M/CHILL 7 (s/bM/CHL 7) 
H2 265

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 05:28 pm    
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

MAA-GOR 
*AA 11-FB (s/bAA2 11-FB) 
AT 20-FB 

MACTAGGERT, MOIRA KINROSS 
UX 97 
*M/HOL SPECIAL 1-BTS (s/bM/HOL 1-BTS) 
UX 98 

MAJOR VICTORY/MAJ. VANCE ASTRO 
T@ 6 
*MSM/ 23 (s/bMSM 23) 
M/TU 86 
A 167 
A 173 
A 177-BTS 
*MSM/ 23 (s/bMSM 23) 

MARVEL GIRL/JEAN GREY SUMMERS 
CX 6/2 
*M/HOL SPECIAL 1-BTS (s/bM/HOL 1-BTS) 
UX 98 

MOCKINGBIRD/DR. BARBARA "BOBBI" MORSE/HUNTRESS 
KZ2 5 
*SVG TALES 8 (assumedSVT 8) 
M/SA 1/2 

MODRED THE MYSTIC 
AF2 16-FB 
*{M/CHILL 1} (s/bM/CHL 1) 
*M/CHILL 2 (s/bM/CHL 2) 
M/TIO 33 

MOON KNIGHT/MARC SPECTOR/"STEVEN GRANT"/"JAKE LOCKLEY" 
PPTSS 23 
*MTIO 52 (s/bM/TIO 52) 
CA 245 

MR. DOLL/NATHAN DOLLY 
*SW 12-FB (s/bS-W 12-FB) 
{TOS 48} 
*SW 12-FB (s/bS-W 12-FB) 
TOS 48 
A 182-FB 
*SW 12-FB (s/bS-W 12-FB) 
*SW 3 (s/bS-W 3) 
*SW 5 (s/bS-W 5) 
*SW 7 (s/bS-W 7) 
*SW 11 (s/bS-W 11) 
*SW 12 (s/bS-W 12) 

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS 
FF@ 3 
*MH&L (assumedM/H&L) 
FF@ 3 
*MH&L (assumedM/H&L) 
FF@ 3 ~ *MH&L (assumedM/H&L) 
*MH&L (assumedM/H&L) 
FF@ 3 
. . . . . 
FF 203 
*GZIL 20 (assumedGZILL 20) 
*GZIL 21 (assumedGZILL 21) 
M/TIO 46 
*GZIL 22 (assumedGZILL 22) 
*GZIL 23 (assumedGZILL 23) 
*GZIL 24 (assumedGZILL 24) 
M/TIO 46 

NIGHTCRAWLER/KURT WAGNER 
XU 25-FB 
*M/HOL SPECIAL 1 (s/b..M/HOL 1) 
UX 98 

NIKKI/NICHOLETTE GOLD 
A 181 
*MSM/ 23-BTS (assumed MSM 23-BTS) 
M/TU 86 

OWAYODATA 
*RED WOLF 6 (s/bRW 6) 
{A 80-FB} 

PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER 
XCAL 79-FB 
*XCD 1-FB (s/bX&CD 1-FB) 
UX 20-FB 

RAGA-SHAH 
*SAVAGE TALES 10 (assumedSVT 10) 
RH 9/2 

RALEIGH, RICHARD 
DD 42 
*SPEC S-M 1 (assumedSPECSM 1 i.e., SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN (MAGAZINE), if not then missing from key. 
DD 42 

RAVONNA LEXUS RENSLAYER 
A 200-FB 
*A:TERM OBJ 3 (assumedA:TO 3) 
A@ 21-FB 

RED RONIN 
*GZIL 17 (assumedGZILL 17) 
A 197 

RED WOLF III/WILL TALLTREES 
RW 7 
*M/CHILL 3 (s/bM/CHL 3) 
*M/CHILL 5 (s/bM/CHL 5) 
*M/CHILL 6 (s/bM/CHL 6) 
*M/CHILL 7 (s/bM/CHL 7) 
H2 265 

REDWING 
CA 290 
*FALC 1 (s/bFAL 1) 
*FALC 2 (s/bFAL 2) 
*FALC 3 (s/bFAL 3) 
*FALC 4 (s/bFAL 4) 
PM&IF 112 

ROBERTSON, JOE 
ASM 58 
*SPEC S-M 1 (assumedSPECSM 1 i.e., SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN (MAGAZINE), if not then missing from key. 
ASM 60-BTS 

SCANLAN, MAUREEN 
*T:GS 1-FB (s/b T:G 1-FB) 
*{T:GS 2} (s/b T:G 2) 
*T:GS 2 (s/b T:G 2) 

SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF 
M/FAN 14 
*GZIL 23 (assumedGZILL 23) 
CA 228 

SEA LEOPARD 
*NAMOR 52 (s/bN 52) 
*NAMOR 53 (s/bN 53) 

SEESHA 
*SVG TALES 11 (assumedSVT 11) 
KZ2 20 

SHANG-CHI 
MOKF 20 
*MOFK 21 (assumedMOKF 21) 
DHKF@ 1 

SHE-HULK/JENNIFER WALTERS 
A 285 
*MEPHVS 1 (s/b MEPHV. 1 ) 
*MEPHVS 4 ~ T 381 (s/b MEPHV. 4 ~ T 381 ) 
*FFVX 1 (assumed FFV.X 1) 
*FFVX 2 (assumed FFV.X 2) 
*FFVX 3 (assumed FFV.X 3) 
*FFVX 4 (assumed FFV.X 4) 
FF 299 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
ASM:F&E 4 
*M/HOLI 1994/5 (assumedM/HOL 1994/5) 
ASM 398 

STONE-FACE 
*CA&F 171 (s/bCA 171) 
M/TU 114 

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
WI? 4 
*SH2 22-FB (s/bS-H 22-FB) 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82 

THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM 
CS 7 
*M:/LG 11 (s/bM/:LG) 
TG 10-FB 

THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" 
DD2 16 
*T:GS 2 (s/bT:G 2) 
TB 0 

THORNN II/LUCIA CALLASANTOS 
XFOR 11 
*CABLE2 15 (s/bC2 15) 
XFOR 40 

TONGAH 
AT 7 
*SVG TALES 11 (assumedSVT 11) 
KZ2 4 

TORK, SGT. 
*FALC 1 (s/bFAL 1) 
*FALC 2 (s/bFAL 2) 
*FALC 3 (s/bFAL 3) 
*FALC 4 (s/bFAL 4) 
ASM 286 

TORRENT/JARED CARSTAIRS 
*T:GS 2-FB (s/bT:G 2-FB) 
*{T:GS 1} (s/bT:G 1) 
*T:GS 2 (s/bT:G 2) 

TWO-GUN KID/MATTHEW J. LIEBOWICZ/"MATT HAWK"/"CLAY HARDER" 
M/TALES 100/2 
*CHAMPS 11 (s/bCHAMP 11) 
A 161 

TYPHON 
A 50 
*M/PM 26 (s/bM/PRM 26) 
A 163 

VISION 
A 179-FB 
*GZIL 23 (assumptionGZILL 23) 
*GZIL 24 (assumptionGZILL 24) 
CA 228 

VOLSTAGG 
JIM -1 
*T:GS 2 (s/bT:G 2) 
T 128 

VON DOOM, CYNTHIA 
DSDDGN-FB 
*DSDDGB (assumedDSDDGN) 

VON FRANKENSTEIN, BARONESS VICTORIA 
*FRANK MON 18 (assumedFMON 18) 
IM 102 

WHITE KING 
UX 100-FB 
*{P-M@ 1} ??? another one unidentified  
UX 96-BTS 

WHYTE, HARMONY (HARMONY YOUNG) 
PM&IF 106 
*PM&ID 108 (assumedPM&IF 108) 

WIZARD/BENTLEY WITTMAN 
TB '97-FB 
*PPTSS2 12/2 (s/bPPSM2 12/2) 
ASM2 4 

ZEMO/BARON HEINRICH ZEMO 
CA:ME-FB 
*SGT. FURY 8 (s/bSGTF 8) 
{A 6-FB}

			*	*	*

Thread 89

Posted: 12 May 2004 08:18 am    Post subject: Hawkeye series
By (guest)

If 
HAWK 
is the first series ("Hawkeye", 1983) 

and 
HAWK2 
is the series known as "Hawkeye: Earth's Mightiest Marksman" (1998) 

what about 
"Hawkeye", 1994 
and 
"Hawkeye", 2003 
?

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 03:29 pm    
By SeanCurtin

This problem was fixed once it was brought up on the old message board. Now the only listing reading HAWK2 is for a character who actually did appear in the second miniseries, rather than the later one-shot. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 90

Posted: 09 May 2004 03:15 pm    Post subject: MISSING CODES
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

As per SeanCurtin's post, "ELEKTRA Vol. 2 isn't listed on the Key." 
- Code used was ELEK2 

Here's a few more: 

BK (only in Percy of Scandia's listing) 
GR (only Night Rider ) 
GR4 (only issue 2 and only Johnny Blaze) 
GSSVTU 
IM&SM 
M/AGE 
NMARE 
SAGAHT 
SOS 
WI?2 (#39 only in Immortus's listing... do not have WI?2 39 to verify, but even if not, it seems like we'll need WHAT IF? vol 2 in the key anyway) 
WOSSSS 


And in line with key maintenance... 

the Key lists J for JUSTICE and J2 for JUSTICE vol 2. Other than the New Universe JUSTICE, the only JUSTICE title I know is the 4-issue JUSTICE:FOUR CONTROL 

the following characters have JUSTICE in their listing: 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 
HITCHUCK, KELLY 
MARVEL BOY VII/DAVID BANK 
THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM 

The following have J: 
BANK, IRVING 
GAULTHING, ANDERSON 

and these have J2: 
ASTROVIK, NORMA 
CHORD, ANDREW 
FIRESTAR/ANGELICA JONES 
HATE-MONGER IV 
JANES, FATHER MICHAEL 
JUSTICE II/VANCE ASTROVIK 
NIGHT THRASHER/DWAYNE TAYLOR 

All of these are from the same title...JUSTICE:FOUR CONTROL

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 03:43 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Arthur wrote: 
>>>
WOSSSS 
<<<


This sounds like a mistake, and I think it should be WOSMSS. Where do you find it? 


watching: birdman and the galaxy trio

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 04:45 pm    
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

sorry.. should have checked further. I've been reading in the clone saga era and assumed this to be the non-existent Web of Scarlet Spider Super-Special.. but you're right, it should read WOSMSS 

Occurs in both Flash Thompson and Black Cat's listings.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 04:53 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Arthur wrote: 
>>>
the Key lists J for JUSTICE and J2 for JUSTICE vol 2. Other than the New Universe JUSTICE, the only JUSTICE title I know is the 4-issue JUSTICE:FOUR CONTROL 
<<<


I believe you're right, although in my view, listings for Justice should be either J2 or J:FC, leaving space for the incorporation of New Universe listings down the line. (After all, they're out there in a sealed part of the Marvel Universe somewhere.) 

Just to be irritatingly complete, there's also a book called JUSTICE COMICS which ran from 1947 to 1955. According to the Unofficial Handbook of Marvel Comics Creators, it was a continuation from a book called WACKY DUCK. Now that must have been a change in tone...
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 07:12 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
I believe you're right, although in my view, listings for Justice should be either J2 or J:FC, leaving space for the incorporation of New Universe listings down the line. (After all, they're out there in a sealed part of the Marvel Universe somewhere.) 
<<<


Yeah, it should be J2. 


watching: scream

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 05:18 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I was thinking, it would be safer to change it to J:FC. 

There's a series out there *called* "J2" (the Juggernaut's-son MC2 series) ... wouldn't things get confusing if the MCP abbreviation "J2" referred to a different series entirely? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 05:23 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Besides, what would we call J2? :smile:
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 02:21 pm    Post subject: entry name not in bold
By Dhall

REAVER/JOSHUA STRAGG 


text on name should be bold.

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Posted: 19 May 2004 09:55 am    Post subject: Missing linebreak
By Peter Fabricius

There is a missing linebreak in Beast's listing 

it is as present 
XF 13 
XF 14 
XF 15 
T 377 
XF 17 ~ T 379 M/FAN 50-FB 
XF 17 ~ FA 3 
XF 18 
XF 19 
XF 20 

I think it shoud be 
XF 13 
XF 14 
XF 15 
T 377 
XF 17 ~ T 379 
M/FAN 50-FB 
XF 17 ~ FA 3 
XF 18 
XF 19 
XF 20
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 May 2004 10:44 am    
By Peter Fabricius

And here is a handful more 

BOBSTER/STURDEVANT E. ROBBINS See Hypertron II 

this is in most other entries formatted as 

BOBSTER/STURDEVANT E. ROBBINS 
See Hypertron II 

--- 

CONOWAY, SEKMEHT 
{GAM3 3-FB} GAM3 1 
GAM3 3 
... 

should be 

CONOWAY, SEKMEHT 
{GAM3 3-FB} 
GAM3 1 
GAM3 3 
... 

--- 

CYPHER/DOUG RAMSEY 
... 
XCAL:P 
NM 64 
See also Douglock WLOCK3 1 

should be 

CYPHER/DOUG RAMSEY 
... 
XCAL:P 
NM 64 
See also Douglock 
WLOCK3 1 

--- 

GEIST 
W2 19-FB 
W2 18-FB 
{W2 17} W2 18 
W2 19 
W2 20 
W2 21 
W2 22 
W2 23 

should be 

GEIST 
W2 19-FB 
W2 18-FB 
{W2 17} 
W2 18 
W2 19 
W2 20 
W2 21 
W2 22 
W2 23 

--- 

GREEN GOBLIN IV/PHIL URICH 
... 
GG 5 
[ULTRAFORCE/SPIDER-MAN] GG 6 
GG 7 
... 

should be 
GREEN GOBLIN IV/PHIL URICH 
... 
GG 5 
[ULTRAFORCE/SPIDER-MAN] 
GG 6 
GG 7 
... 

--- 

HOBGOBLIN II/RODERICK KINGSLEY 
... 
ASM 245 
S-H2 29-BTS S-H2 30 
ASM 245 
... 

should be 

HOBGOBLIN II/RODERICK KINGSLEY 
... 
ASM 245 
S-H2 29-BTS 
S-H2 30 
ASM 245 
... 

--- 

HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM 
... 
FF 48 
MARVELS 3 FF 48 
FF 49 
... 

should be 

HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM 
... 
FF 48 
MARVELS 3 
FF 48 
FF 49 
... 

--- 

JEFFRIES, MAGGIE NW 73 

should be 

JEFFRIES, MAGGIE 
NW 73 

--- 

KRAVEN THE HUNTER II/ALYOSHA KRAVINOV PPTSS 245 
PPTSS 246 
... 

should be 

KRAVEN THE HUNTER II/ALYOSHA KRAVINOV 
PPTSS 245 
PPTSS 246 
... 

--- 

MASTER MAN/WILHELM LOHMER GSINV 1-FB 
GSINV 1 
INV 16 
... 

should be 

MASTER MAN/WILHELM LOHMER 
GSINV 1-FB 
GSINV 1 
INV 16 
... 

--- 

MOLECULA/JULIE POWER From Lightspeed 
PP 32 
XF@ 2 
... 

should be 

MOLECULA/JULIE POWER 
From Lightspeed 
PP 32 
XF@ 2 
... 

--- 

OSBORN, LIZ ALLAN 
... 
ASM 400 
[SPIDER-MAN: LEGACY OF EVIL] GG 6 
GG 7 
... 

should be 

OSBORN, LIZ ALLAN 
... 
ASM 400 
[SPIDER-MAN: LEGACY OF EVIL] 
GG 6 
GG 7 
... 

--- 

STARLING, JAMES-MICHAEL OU 1 
OU 2 
... 

should be 

STARLING, JAMES-MICHAEL 
OU 1 
OU 2 
... 

--- 

TECHNOCRAT/RANDY 
XM 72-FB {XM 71} 
XM 72 

should be 

TECHNOCRAT/RANDY 
XM 72-FB 
{XM 71} 
XM 72 

---- 

THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM 
... 
WOSM 76 
XF 66 N 13 
FF@ 24 
... 

should be 

THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM 
... 
WOSM 76 
XF 66 
N 13 
FF@ 24 
... 

--- 

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 
... 
UTSM:SE 
{ASM 25} ASM 259-FB 
ASM 38 
... 


should be 

... 
UTSM:SE 
{ASM 25} ASM 259-FB 
ASM 38 
... 

--- 

YELLOWJACKET/HANK PYM 
From Goliath A 60-FB 
A 59 
... 

should be 

YELLOWJACKET/HANK PYM 
From Goliath 
A 60-FB 
A 59 
... 


Sorry about the carpet bombing. 
This all popped out when debugging the program i mentioned on another thread.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 May 2004 11:47 am    
By Peter Fabricius

And one more error 

VYREK 

the HTML code ends with a 
<P. 
not a 
<P>
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 May 2004 12:39 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
CONOWAY, SEKMEHT 
{GAM3 3-FB} GAM3 1 
GAM3 3 
... 

should be 

CONOWAY, SEKMEHT 
{GAM3 3-FB} 
GAM3 1 
GAM3 3 
... 
<<<


Shouldn't the brackets be around GAM3 #1? I thought the point of the brackets was to highlight a character's first PUBLISHED appearance... 

-Jeph!

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Thread 93

Posted: 21 May 2004 09:44 am    Post subject: Marvel Comics Presents #88
By michel

Beast story : the flashback from the early X-Men era is listed M/CP 88/3-FB instead of M/CP 88/2-FB for Beast and Professor X 

Solo story : Tarantula's appearance is listed (M/CP 88/3) but not Solo's one. Based on publication date, it should be in between ASM@ 24/2 and S-M 20

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Posted: 21 May 2004 10:45 am    
By Dhall

Regarding,The MCP story numbers.... 

Marvel Comics Presents for a long time, had 2 covers, one on either side of the book. So that one could number the stories starting from either one cover, or from the other cover. 

Somewhere along the line the decsion must have been made as to how to list these on the MCP. I'm not sure which way we would count stories from. 

I think you are pointing out, that both the Beast Story and the Solo story are listed in the MCP as 88/3. 

So One or the other must be incorrect. But which one should be story 2, and which one should be story 3? 

Dave H

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Posted: 21 May 2004 10:52 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

My usual practice, personally, is that the side with the indicia is the "first two" stories, and the side without the indicia is the "last two". 

The MCP's mileage may vary, though. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 May 2004 11:12 am    
By michel

No, the Beast appearance is correctly listed MCP 88/2. It's only the flashback in this story that is listed MCP 88/3-FB

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Posted: 21 May 2004 01:45 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
My usual practice, personally, is that the side with the indicia is the "first two" stories, and the side without the indicia is the "last two". 

The MCP's mileage may vary, though. 
<<<


That's our policy. 


watching: cnn live

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Posted: 21 May 2004 04:43 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
No, the Beast appearance is correctly listed MCP 88/2. It's only the flashback in this story that is listed MCP 88/3-FB 
<<<


Ah, so the problem is the main story and the flashback, are listed as being in different story #'s. 

I see. 

By the way, these issues (for this Beast MCP story) have /3 notations for every X-Men character who appears in them. 

Dave H

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Thread 94

Posted: 23 May 2004 03:03 pm    Post subject: Arranger
By Peter Fabricius

His real name is not listed, but the last page of PPTSS165 has a news report where it is given as Oswald R. Silkworth.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Thread 95

Posted: 24 May 2004 02:58 pm    Post subject: Wrong Codes
By Peter Fabricius

I discovered that the following characters have some wrong codes in their listings 

GRIFFITH, D.W. 
has PM&andIF 
should be PM&IF 

GRIM REAPER/ERIC WILLIAMS 
has V&andSW and V&andSW2 
should be V&SW and V&SW2
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Thread 96

Posted: 25 May 2004 09:56 am    Post subject: Excess line breaks
By Peter Fabricius

There seems to be an extra linebreak in the entry for Raa 

RAA 
FF@ 25 
A@ 21 
A@ 22/2 

AVF 3
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Thread 97

Posted: 13 May 2004 10:35 am    Post subject: Hello from the old newbie
By PeteD

Just wanted to introduce myself, and say thanks to all those who have made this such a goldmine of information. 

My name's Pete, I'm 49, living in Lancashire,UK, married with a collection of around 4,000 Marvel's and some DCs.( I have bought and sold collections four times over the years, so my current collection goes no further back than the early 70's except for reprints) 

I have been reading Marvel and DC since the early 60's and remember fondly picking up the latest imports ( I am in the UK) each month for a few pennies, where they now command figures that look more like a couple of months pay. :smile:

I still have many pages of reading to do, but do have a couple of questions: 

In the analysis of books thread, there is a description of how to put together a summary of the contents, is this information available anywhere for review, it seems a lot of the compiled info is hidden with only the appearance list on view. 

Where the calender for X titles is published, how complete is it, and where is the latest up to in terms of years, I note that only the date is given, not the year. And are there calendars for other titles, or just the X books? 

Once again, thanks for putting together such detailed info, I don't know when you guys sleep!! 

If I can contribute, I will certainly be in touch ( Currently all my collection needs sorting after a house move). 

Pete.

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Posted: 13 May 2004 06:50 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Welcome, Pete! 

Quote: 
>>>
Where the calender for X titles is published, how complete is it, and where is the latest up to in terms of years, I note that only the date is given, not the year. And are there calendars for other titles, or just the X books?  
<<<


I'm the main calendar guy in the group. The calendar is a tool for determining the big picture of character chronologies and for seeing how temporal references may determine placement. We're currently working in chunks of Marvel time and going backwards. For the past year or two, I've been compiling a Marvel Universe calendar for the period from Maximum Security to the present. Hopefully I'll get the latest draft posted (in increments of MU months) sometime next month, after we see how the current Thor storyline wraps up. 

The X-calendar you saw is a subset of the larger calendar described above. It's been posted as a way of testing the validity of placement of the recent X-books, both in terms of relative and absolute time. If you go back in the forum archives, you might find other calendar subsets and discussions about them. By now, many probably have been modified. 

There is no year indicated because real-world years don't correspond with the passage of time in the MU. As you probably know, time passes more slowly there than it does from our frame of reference. Once we work our way backward to calendar placements for comics published in the early '80s (and who knows how long that will take), we'll have a good sense of how many years have passed since FF 1. My current hunch is that it's been 19 Marvel years since Avengers #1. 

Aside from wrapping up the post-Maximum Security period, I'm trying to start a rough calendar outline for the period from the Infinity War to Maximum Security.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 98

Posted: 20 May 2004 09:28 pm    Post subject: New comic site looking for help!
By scott

Some friends of mine and I have set up a new site. We are all Marvel fans and we were all professional web designers and programmers. To that end, we set up a comic database in a way that makes sense to all of us. We have most of the shell active in the beta testing phase and we're looking for some feedback. We have begun putting in data to test it, but most of it remains incomplete. It will eventually house information on thousands of comics, characters and creators and we are hoping to find comic fans of like mind to help us populate the database. People that say, have a favorite comic and would be willing to summarize the story, list the characters, the credits, scan the cover and even add some personal comments if they want to. Please take a look and feel free to e-mail me. 

www.themarveluniverse.com 

Thanks. 
--Scott 

PS -- to see how a completed comic run works in the database, look up Generation X

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Thread 99

Posted: 03 Apr 2004 08:05 am    Post subject: Definitive Character Websites
By Oedivanth

Hi folks - 

I just found the definitive Daredevil website (manwithoutfear.com) and have added it to my favorites alongside a Spider-Man one (spider-fan.org). Can anyone recommend similar sites?

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Posted: 03 Apr 2004 01:52 pm    
By Starman

Another good DareDevil website I've found is Daredevil Resource (http://daredevil.dreamhost.com/). 

Two good X-Men sites I can recommend are Children of the Atom (www.snikt.com) and the UncannyXmen.Net (http://www.uncannyxmen.net/). 

A good Iron Man website is Advanced Iron (http://www.advancediron.com/) 

For Fantastic Four I recommend FFPlaza.com (http://www.ffplaza.com/)
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Apr 2004 04:01 pm    
By Ant-Man

Don't forget Stephen Yarish's Hulk site... 

http://www.incrediblehulk.com/

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Posted: 05 May 2004 06:29 pm    
By Starman

One of my fav. websites devoted to Marvel Comics characters is The Leader's Lair (http://www.leaderslair.com/), especially the pages devoted to the Hulk and other gamma people. :smile:
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2004 09:54 pm    Post subject: shameless site plug
By scott

Hopefully, this site will soon house lots of definitive character sites. Here is the Luke Cage one that's being built (still in progress) right now. 

http://www.themarveluniverse.com/appearances/default.aspx?aid=19 

You can poke around and check out the beginnings of some of the other characters too. :smile:

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Posted: 21 May 2004 12:30 pm    
By PopularLoser

Another great X-Men site is Mutatis Mutandis: The Online Division of the Xavier Institute. 
http://www.mutanthigh.com/

A good Punisher site is The Punisher Archives. 
http://www.thepunisher.com/archives.html

Avengers Assemble and Avengers Forever are good Avengers sites. 
http://www.avengersassemble.us/
http://www.avengersforever.org/

For Ultimate Marvel, there's Ultimate Marvel Directory (although it hasn't been updated in awhile) and Ultimate X. 
http://ultimatemarvel.web1000.com/index1.htm
http://www.ultimate-x.com/home.shtml

And for general info on a multitude of Marvel (as well as other publishers's) comics, there's Sequart.com.
http://www.sequart.com/

_________________
<Insert Signature Here>

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Thread 100

Posted: 12 May 2004 02:29 pm    Post subject: Computer program for chronology checking
By Peter Fabricius

I've been writing a program that allows me to compare the chronologies of characters listed in the MCP. Mainly to see if I could find errors in the listings. 

If someone would like a copy of it, I'm willing to give it to you. 

I'm doing some final bug-checking at the moment, it made some weird errors when I compared Dr. Strange with Wong. But I think I know what happened. 

I will be posting the chronology errors I discover, when I have checked them manually.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 01:32 am    
By Peter Fabricius

Just a small followup, the program is Windows only, and it uses a downloaded set of pages from this website. 

When first run it compiles this into a text list of all the characters, this takes a few minutes on a fast pc, but needs to be done only once. 

I'll write a small document detailing the program soon.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 May 2004 11:00 am    
By Dhall

Peter, 
I would love a copy, so I can check X-Men chronology. 

Thanks! 

Dave H

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Posted: 20 May 2004 02:06 pm    
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

I'm very non-technical...but if you think a layman can understand how to use it...I'd LOVE it ! 

Many thanks.. Arthur

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Posted: 20 May 2004 03:04 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

So, 4 people so far. 

JonathanC 
DHall 
Arthur 
Starman 

This is just to keep track. :laughing:

Any suggestions for improvement, and finding of errrors will be much appreciated. 

This also goes for documentation, where I know there is room for improvement. 

And if you don't find it useful, well, maybe I can write something else. 

One thing I seem to have forgotten, the program is Windows only. Sorry if this leaves someone out, but for now it can't be helped. 
I am going to be installing Linux as soon as I have time, and money for another harddisk, so maybe I will try to make it more portable.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 May 2004 02:44 am    
By jimmyppi

Very interesting! This sounds very alike the java-program I've written. 
It can be found here: http://medlem.spray.se/marvels/chronology.htm 

I would like a copy of your program

			*	*	*

Thread 101

Posted: 27 May 2004 08:36 pm    Post subject: Uncanny X-Men TPBs
By Starman

I have the Uncanny X-Men trade paperbacks Vol 1: Hope (UX 410-415) & Vol 2: Dominant Species (UX 416-420), but I'm very wary about buying any of the following volumes, as I've seen lots of negative things about the following story-lines, and Chuck Austen's writing, on the net. So now I'm seeking your advice on if any of the following volumes are worth buying, and which if any, or if I just should put my money on Essential volumes, and old crossovers on TGPs instead. 

Thanks in advance from Stefan the Starman! :smile:
(And those wondering about my nickname choice, I've chosen it because that's a wrestler's name in an old game to the 8-bit Nintento, Pro Wrestling, my interest in sci-fi like Star Trek and Star Wars, and because of a Swedish Christmas tradition, not because of the DC superhero which I learned about first long afterwards, and never have read. :wink: )
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2004 03:19 am    
By rhod

Depends what you look for in a comic: if you want good stories featuring well-known characters, and don't mind the occasional bit of 'unconventional' artwork, or that the characters involved sometimes bear little or no relation to established characterisations, then go for it. 
Otherwise be warned: some of the artwork is, frankly, poor; the whole Polaris/Magneto's daughter thing gets resurrected again (they really should let it be); Nightcrawler's parentage gets changed against common belief, etc. 
Personally, I own the entire Austen run, and found I enjoyed enough of it to compensate for the bits that made me go 'Ugh' or 'Duh?'

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2004 07:53 am    
By dimadick

Its all a matter of personal opinion. Personally I found his run to contain many intriguing ideas and many appaling ones. 

I always found the Magneto/Polaris relationship to be intriguing. They basically share the same methods of sensing and controling their enviroment. Polaris was actually dubbed M2 (Magneto II) back in her introductory story. The resolution to that old story was rather goofy. Iceman suppossedly got all the answers concerning her parents and past from old newspaper articles and an unseen meeting with her step-parents. Yep, that ought to resolve all questions of her origin and identity. Austen has raised the question of how truthful those accounts were. Whether the airplane crash was an accident or an assassination and how much of a role Magneto has played in her life. This father/daughter relationship seems to have room for exploration yet. 

The Juggernaut storyline is probably among Chuck's best efforts. Cain's attempt at reformation has so far included a mentoring relationship with Squidboy, a reconciliation of shorts with his step-brother, a return home to the mansion and a membership with the X-Men. Not to mention an apparent newfound interest in She-Hulk. Mr. Marko finally adresses his motivations and actions of the past and his personal trial is "just beginning". 

Archangel and Husk have their moments. I have personally grown rather fond of both characters. Their developing relationship provides for some decent material. Excluding "She Lies With Angels" where we found out Paige has a brother who could pass for a Warren look-alike. 

Nightcrawler's priesthood was discovered to be a delusion. Thus resolving a subplot going back to the six months gap that never went anywhere. The Church of Humanity storyline was seemingly resolved. The conception and birth of Nightcrawler received an issue of their own to develop. 

So far, so good. But then follows the parade of misused characters. : 

The love-square of Havok- Polaris - Iceman - Annie Ghazikhanian. Havok going along with a marriage proposal by Polaris only to turn her down for Annie. Polaris complaining to her female friends of Alex's and Robert's poor performances in bed. As well as admitting of having the hots for Gambit! Annie being in love with Alex but repeatedly smooching with Robert. Robert complaining about Alex stealing his women (Lorna and Annie)! And Lorna is the one supposed to be the mentaly unstable among them. 

Kurt is established as the leader of the Uncanny team. But decisions are actualy left to Archangel and Havok. Kurt ever accepts scolding by Cyclops. Not exactly his finest moments. 

Chamber is supposedly part of the team but hardly makes an appearance. Jubilee returns from limbo but is hardly given a speaking line. Mystique is revealed to have been sleeping around while married and abandoning her baby for no apparent reason. Azazel is established as the father of Nightcrawler. Four issues and practically no character development for him. He is hinted to have practicaly arranged for Margali Szardos to raise his son. No resolution on that front. Alpha Flight are reccuring guest stars but are apparently on decline. Guardian, Vindicator and Snowbird are taken out with minimal effort, Sasquatch and Puck get head first into battles and end up causing a mess. 

Not brilliant material but not particularly painful either.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2004 01:17 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Oh, they're dire. Each volume just gets worse and worse and worse. 

Forget plots -- Austen has a severe problem with pacing and timing. Big explosions will happen and the X-Men will stand around yelling for pages and pages afterwards, rather than leaping into action. 

He doesn't know how to let the artwork, or character's actions, tell the story, so he has his characters constantly explain their actions and their motivations in clunky dialogue. Archangel from #427: 

"Sorry. That was intended to be advice, but it came off as a command. Hard habit to break." 

See how subtlely he sets up that Archangel is (1) commanding (2) trying to be less commanding? 

Bystander from #427: 

"--and then Jeremy uprooted a tree, and hit her with it, And then she held ON to the tree, and let go and fell right on top of him when he lifted it over his head, and--" 

Thank you -- we saw the fight. Recapping the fight on the very next page is completely unnecessary. 

And his characters yell their lines in all caps, bold and italic all at once. Their entire lines. Husk from #420: 

"THANK GOD! THE X-MEN ARE HERE!" 

And his characters constantly repeat themselves. Whether it's asking the same question in different forms several times, or just plain repeating their lines verbatim ... here, sample dialogue between Juggernaut and Sammy's mom and dad. 

J: "Hi. I'm here to see Sammy. Did you hear me? I said I'm here to see--" 
M: "You're not -- you're not supposed to come here!" 
J: "I just want to see Sammy." 
M: "YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO COME HERE!" 
D: "There's a restraining order ... there's a RESTRAINING ORDER on you!" 
M: "Where is it, where is it, where is it?" (looking for item) 
J: "I just wanted to see Sammy." 
M: "I found it! THANK GOD, I FOUND IT!" 
J: "What is that? What did you just do?" 
D: "You're not supposed to come in here!" 
J: "What's that thing she's pressing?" 

Isn't that fantastic? Not only does every character repeat their lines several times over, Juggernaut asks "what's that thing" three times in three different ways over two panels. (The answer, by the way, is that it summons Alpha Flight.) 

And everyone's screaming full sentences in bold italicized caps. 

Oh, and lest we forget Austen's women. All they think about is (1) sex, and (2) their existence as it relates to the men in their lives. 

Jubilee and Husk are standing over Skin's grave, and what do they talk about? How horny Husk is for Archangel, and how Jubilee regrets never letting the deceased go through with his horny feelings for her. Never mind that the deceased never SHOWED any desire for Jubilee on-panel, ever ... he's dead, and her only regret is that she didn't let him grope and fuck her. (How old is Jubilee?) 

Oh, and Northstar's gay. Did you happen to realize Northstar's gay? because Austen likes to have Northstar talk about being gay. Gay. He's gay. He's gay. Gay. 

EDIT: And every single character was somehow abused by a father figure. EVERY CHARACTER. Including Professor X! Even Northstar, the ORPHAN, whose adoptive parents ALSO died when he was small -- he too was somehow beaten by his father when he came out. 

It's all bullshit. Don't buy them. Austen has so many very visible writing quirks -- plot, pacing, dialogue, motivation, the occasional amazingly ignorant continuity error -- it's not even worth it. 

Ugh. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 May 2004 09:56 pm    
By rhod

Hey Jeph, don't hold back mate, why don't you tell us how you really feel? 

I'm sure I read in an interview somewhere that Chris Claremont had intended Nightcrawler to have been the son of Destiny and Mystique (she's a shapeshifter- why not), but this was never made explicit due to the comic code, anyone know what the truth of this is? Personally I prefer this explanation to the whole Azazel garbage, maybe that's just my twisted brain talking again.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2004 05:56 am    
By dimadick

Forget plots -- Austen has a severe problem with pacing and timing. Big explosions will happen and the X-Men will stand around yelling for pages and pages afterwards, rather than leaping into action." 

True. 

"He doesn't know how to let the artwork, or character's actions, tell the story, so he has his characters constantly explain their actions and their motivations in clunky dialogue." 


He has a point, concidering the often complains that this particular artwork isn't clear enough for several characters to be remotely recognizable. 

"And his characters yell their lines in all caps, bold and italic all at once. Their entire lines. Husk from #420: 

"THANK GOD! THE X-MEN ARE HERE!" " 

Compare it to Chris Claremont's recent introduction of characters with them yelling their own names in all caps. 

"And his characters constantly repeat themselves. Whether it's asking the same question in different forms several times, or just plain repeating their lines verbatim ... here, sample dialogue between Juggernaut and Sammy's mom and dad. 

J: "Hi. I'm here to see Sammy. Did you hear me? I said I'm here to see--" 
M: "You're not -- you're not supposed to come here!" 
J: "I just want to see Sammy." 
M: "YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO COME HERE!" 
D: "There's a restraining order ... there's a RESTRAINING ORDER on you!" 
M: "Where is it, where is it, where is it?" (looking for item) 
J: "I just wanted to see Sammy." 
M: "I found it! THANK GOD, I FOUND IT!" 
J: "What is that? What did you just do?" 
D: "You're not supposed to come in here!" 
J: "What's that thing she's pressing?" 

Isn't that fantastic? Not only does every character repeat their lines several times over, Juggernaut asks "what's that thing" three times in three different ways over two panels. (The answer, by the way, is that it summons Alpha Flight.) " 

I suppose its his way of exibiting the panic and/or confusion of the characters. Not my favorite but I'll take it over long-winded speeches of the X-Men standing for hope. 

"Oh, and lest we forget Austen's women. All they think about is (1) sex, and (2) their existence as it relates to the men in their lives. " 

His previous work on porn books probably has much to do with that. His men are not much better. With the possible exceptions of the Profesor and Nightcrawler. Sadly Austen's interviews reoort of his supposed effort to add depth to the characters by making them face everyday problems. His sources on everyday life seem to be bad sitcoms and soap operas. 

"Jubilee and Husk are standing over Skin's grave, and what do they talk about? How horny Husk is for Archangel, and how Jubilee regrets never letting the deceased go through with his horny feelings for her. Never mind that the deceased never SHOWED any desire for Jubilee on-panel, ever ... he's dead, and her only regret is that she didn't let him grope and fuck her. (How old is Jubilee?) " 

I didn't find that particularly offensive. Some catching up with their lives was to be expected at this point. Jubilee and Skin suppossedly shared an apartment in Los Angeles for a while. We never did get to see much of their domestic lives. Concidering Husk is now 19, I would suppose Jubilee is at least 16 years old at this point. I don't see them having a great age difference. What bugged me with that particular issue was the identification of Skin as Angelo Torres rather than Angelo Espinoza" and the completely unecessary fight with a Colossus look-alike." 

"Oh, and Northstar's gay. Did you happen to realize Northstar's gay? because Austen likes to have Northstar talk about being gay. Gay. He's gay. He's gay. Gay." 

Yep, Austen had a ball flagging this up. Whenever he remembers to use him. The only member of the cast with less time in the spotlight is Chamber. 

"EDIT: And every single character was somehow abused by a father figure. EVERY CHARACTER. Including Professor X! Even Northstar, the ORPHAN, whose adoptive parents ALSO died when he was small -- he too was somehow beaten by his father when he came out." 

Kurt Marko had long been established as an abusive father to Cain. Being abusive to Charles as well is not that much of a stretch. The Northstar reference was obviously a blander. Honestly, Austen seems to feel strongly about matters of child abuse, marital abuse and such. As a whole its not a bad idea. Too bad it gets to be repetitive. 

"It's all bullshit. Don't buy them. Austen has so many very visible writing quirks -- plot, pacing, dialogue, motivation, the occasional amazingly ignorant continuity error -- it's not even worth it." 

As opposed to Claremont's sex-change of Masque, Morrison's ressurection of Unus the Untouchable and Casey's manic version of Mystique? 

"I'm sure I read in an interview somewhere that Chris Claremont had intended Nightcrawler to have been the son of Destiny and Mystique (she's a shapeshifter- why not), but this was never made explicit due to the comic code, anyone know what the truth of this is?" 


Frow what I heard at least, he intended for Rogue to be revealed as the love child of Mystique and Destiny. I'd take that over the currently confusing reports of her childhood. Actually the mythical Azazel interpreted as a mutant was not such a bad idea. The execution of the idea however was as impressive as any of Howard Mackie's sub-plots.

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Posted: 29 May 2004 08:54 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The Austen run is every bit as bad as you've heard. "Hope" is passable, and it's all downhill from there. "Dominant Species" starts off promisingly and collapses, and after that it gets really grim. 

Don't waste your money.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 May 2004 09:43 pm    
By Dhall

If you like watching train wrecks, then by all means buy Chuck Austin's work. It can be enjoyable in the same way that a truly awful movie is. It's also annoying, BUT personally I'd take it over Chris Claremont's recent work. (Neither one has a grasp of basic characterization, or continuity.) 

Dave H
