	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Fin Fang Foom
2. UX 300/2
3. is Rawhide kid and Apache sky's canon?
4. She-Hulk/FF/Avengers Error
5. Iron Man #1-#50
6. Why is Cage and blade uncannon?
7. Breaks in Daredevil, Howard the Duck, Thing:Freakshow
8. specsm 1/ asm 116-118
9. Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine
10. Time in the Marvel universe
11. The Fury
12. Arcade
13. Two X-Men history questions
14. Elektra in Captain America#388?
15. Is "Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandos" a canon t
16. What's coming from Marvel in September...
17. Doc Savage Chronology?
18. Logan's Run
19. Questions...
20. X-Titles Pre-X-Men 1 History (Rough) Reading Order
21. Marvel Preview
22. Nick Fury in fbs in Daredevil#322-323 fbs
23. Marvel Age Annual #4
24. Nick Fury in Elektra: Assasin....
25. Reading Orders, Calendars, etc.
26. Tangled Web
27. Baron Zemo notes; WI 5 intro, Av#4
28. Ymir chronolgy; slight revisions
29. Awesome Android additions
30. Apollo in Doctor Strange II#46
31. Agatha Harkness question......
32. Seth Update; Saga of the Sub-Mariner
33. Rules about Flashbacks
34. Spidey one shots:
35. Cage is canon
36. Godzilla and company additions
37. Marvel UK
38. Yeti update; Olshevsky said he is same
39. Team America

	Ultimate Universe Forum
40. Ultimate Universe Chronology version 1.4
41. Ultimate Fantastic Four #005
42. Ultimate Universe Team & Group Chronologies version 1.5
43. Thank you to all Ultimate fans who read this board.
44. Ultimate Universe Character Chronologies version 1.5

	2099 Forum
45. 2099 - the beginnings of a chronology?
46. Nobody Loves 2099

	Issue Analysis Forum
47. Bishop's Timeline
48. do you want issue analysis for 'Nam?
49. Call for analyses
50. NYX #1-4
51. Silver Surfer #7-9
52. The Pulse #1-2
53. Emma Frost #7-12
54. Inhumans #1-6
55. B-Sides #1-3
56. Silver Surfer #1-6
57. Inhumans #7-12
58. Chronology Review for Daredevil #57-60.
59. Chronology Review for DD #61 and The Pulse #3
60. Sentinel #1-6
61. Sentinel #7-12

	Chat Forum
62. Someone care to explain all the dangling New Xmen plots?
63. Marvel Edge
64. Marvel Mini Comics
65. Here we are the FANTASTIC 4 Fan Video

	Bug Reports Forum
66. Bullseye II
67. Incorrect codes (GZIL)
68. The Orb


Thread 1

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 11:45 am    Post subject: Fin Fang Foom
By Enda80

Fin Fang Foom and the Midgard Serpent are separate entities. The Midgard Serpent only impersonated FFF in a couple of Thor issues. This was clarified in the offiical Handbook entries for Fin Fang Foom (Update '89) and Midgard Serpent (Book of the Dead, Deluxe Edition). 

FIN FANG FOOM 

IM 274-FB 
IM 272-FB 
ST 89 
AT 23 
AT 24 
IM 261 
IM 262 
..........

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 06:41 pm    
By SeanCurtin

And a chronology for the Midgard Serpent (probably missing a few flashbacks): 

MIDGARD SERPENT/JORMUNGAND 
{T 127} 
T 128 
T 200 
T 272 
T 278 
T 327 
T 389 
T 390 
T 486 
T 487 
T 488 
A3 1 

--Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 08:59 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

And then there's today's T2 80.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 2

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 03:42 pm    Post subject: UX 300/2
By DCW3

A minor nitpick-- 

I think that the last eight pages of UX 300 ought to be considered a separate story from the first part of the issue. Granted, the last section is titled "Epilog," so it's understandable that one might consider it to be the conclusion to the earlier story. However, the "Epilog" title is used just as the title to a backup story would be, and the section has different artwork from the rest of the issue and--most notably--a new credit box. I can't remember ever seeing new credit boxes used for separate chapters of a story in one issue; they're almost invariably used to mark the start of a new story. The credit box also points out a switch in inkers from "pages 1-4" to "pages 5-8"--new page numbers, not continued from the earlier part of the issue. (Failing all this, Paul O'Brien agrees with me--in this review, he treats "Epilog" as a separate story.) 

If this change is accepted, then the following corrections would be necessary: 

COLOSSUS II/PETER RASPUTIN 
... 
UX 299 
UX 300 
**UX 300/2 
UX@ 17-FB 
UX@ 17 
... 

CORTEZ, FABIAN 
... 
UX 299 
UX 300 
**UX 300/2 
UX 301 
UX 304 
... 

GAMESMASTER/"JEREMY" 
... 
UX 299 
UX 300 
**UX 300/2 
X 22 
UX 301 
... 

MACTAGGERT, MOIRA KINROSS 
... 
XF 86 
UX 300 
**UX 300/2 
UX 301 
UX 303-FB 
... 

PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER 
... 
UX 299 
UX 300 
**UX 300/2 
UX 301 
UX 302 
... 

RASPUTINA, ILLYANA II 
... 
X 17 
UX 299 
[UX 300] - delete 
**UX 300/2 
UX 301 
UX 302 
... 

VOGHT, AMELIA 
... 
UX 309-FB 
{UX 300} 
**UX 300/2 
UX 304 
UX 315 
...

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 03:49 pm    
By Dhall

For what it's worth, I agree that this is a seperate story. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 04:00 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Yes, I agree. It has its own credit box, and a substantiall different creative team. It's a separate story, entitled "Epilog."
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 3

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 11:50 am    Post subject: is Rawhide kid and Apache sky's canon?
By Marvel Jedi

are they?
_________________
-snoogans!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 03:40 pm    
By SeanCurtin

There's no reason for them not to be. If there [is] some reason for Apache Skies to be non-canon, that probably brings Blaze of Glory out of continuity as well. 

--Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 04:02 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Since the books exist to tie up the lives of various western heroes, it would be rather odd if they WEREN'T canon. There's a definite style shift from the original stories, of course, but no more than between any Silver Age and modern day comic.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 4

Posted: 05 Jun 2004 05:55 pm    Post subject: She-Hulk/FF/Avengers Error
By SKleefeld

I was scanning through some of the issues and noticed a bit of a discrepency. Here's a portion of She-Hulk's listing... 

S-H2 1-3 
FF 328 
S-H2 4-5 
A 305-310 
FF 333 

And Mr. Fantastic's... 

FF 326 
FF 327 
T 405 
A 305 
SS@ 2/2 
A 306-308 
FF 327 
FF 328-333 
S-H2 6 

Notice particularly, the placement of Avengers #305 compared to FF #328 in both lists. 

In Avengers #305, Captain America calls everyone who was ever an Avenger to Hydrobase to see if he can rebuild the team. Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman and Ben Grimm show up. Reed notes that he and Sue recently rejoined the FF and Ben notes that he recently lost his Thing powers. Clearly, this occurs at least after FF #327 page 17. 

In FF #328, Ben calls She-Hulk to compare notes on Dragon Man. She's surprised that Ben is in human form, indicating that she did not see him yet in Avengers #305. She also notes that "a guy named Byrne" has been bugging her, in reference to her own then-new series. Following that conversation, Ben heads off to find the rest of the FF, saves them, only to have the whole team and the Frightful Four captured by Aron the Watcher. There are no significant breaks until the end of the issue, but the FF are captured at that point. And from #328 until #333, the FF remain in stasis and are unavailable. 

Consequently, an updated, compiled list should look something more like... 

A 300 
T 405 (I don't have this issue, but I'm guessing this placement is more accurate based on Thor's MCP listing) 
A 301-304 
S-H2 1-3 
FF 326-333 
S-H2 4-5 
A 305 
SS@ 2/2 (I'm guessing this is still valid, but I don't have this issue either) 
A 306-310 
S-H2 6

			*	*	*

Hey, Sean. Your notes do point out some errors in the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, vol. 2, #6. The Index notes that Reed and Sue appear on page 15 of FF 327 after A 305. But your note about She-Hulk being surprised at Ben Grimm is well taken and suggests that FF 333 occurs before A 305. 

In fact, there are other errors in that Index. It tells us that FF 326 occurs before A 303, but after M/CP 21 (which follows A@ 18/2, which follows A 303). Also T 408 occurs before A 301, but T 305 is Reed's and Sue's last appearance before A 305. My notes indicate that the latter is correct, and that A 304 occurs between pages of T 402. 

However, let's not forget those two appearances of Reed and Sue as Avengers that the Index lists between A 303 and FF 326: 
A@ 18/2 
M/CP 21 - BTS 

The Index lists She-Hulk's last appearance before A 305 as S-H2 5. This suggests that S-H2 5 occurs after FF 328. 

Thus the order would be: 
A 303 
A@ 18/2 
M/CP 21 - BTS 
FF 326 
FF 327 
T 405 
FF 327 
FF 328 
FF 329 
FF 330 
FF 331 
FF 332 
FF 333 
S-H2 5 
A 305 

(And A 304 and T 402-404 occur between M/CP 21 and T 405.)
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Hey, Sean. Your notes do point out some errors in the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, vol. 2, #6. The Index notes that Reed and Sue appear on page 15 of FF 327 after A 305. But your note about She-Hulk being surprised at Ben Grimm is well taken and suggests that FF 333 occurs before A 305. 
<<<

Hurm... I'm getting increasingly disappointed with those Indexes. Granted, it was a MASSIVE project for one man, but I'm inclined to think of them more as a rough guideline than actual references. :confused:

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
The Index lists She-Hulk's last appearance before A 305 as S-H2 5. This suggests that S-H2 5 occurs after FF 328. 
<<<


I couldn't find any real cross-references between She-Hulk and Avengers. There was only that vague reference to Byrne in FF #328. Plus, there are significant breaks at the end of She-Hulk #s 4, 5 and 6 so I don't know that it really matters too much whether #5 occurs before or after FF #328. 

That said, I would be loosely inclined to say it should appear afterwards, if for no other reason than to fill up She-Hulk's otherwise empty schedule between FF #328 and #333.

			*	*	*

Thread 5

Posted: 06 Jun 2004 12:49 am    Post subject: Iron Man #1-#50
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

Iron Man #1-#50 

* adjustment required 
** new entries 

ALPHA II 
**IM 15 The Red Ghosts apes in IM 15 and IM 16 were Alpha (11p4) and Beta (12p1), who planned on returning themselves to the wild in IM 16(19p2). (Currently listed as the originalsPeator, Mikhlo and Igor) 
**IM 16 

BETA 
**IM 15 The Red Ghosts apes in IM 15 and IM 16 were Alpha (11p4) and Beta (12p1), who planned on returning themselves to the wild in IM 16(19p2). (Currently listed as the originalsPeator, Mikhlo and Igor) 
**IM 16 

COLLECTOR/TANELEER TIVAN [ELDER] 
A 51 
**IM 26-FB (3p6-3p7) The Collector takes Pepper hostage. 
IM 26 

CONTROLLER/BASIL SANDHURST/XANDER BASEL 
**IM 12-FB (9p4-11p4) Controller's History 
IM 12 
IM 13 
IM 28 

CORD, JANICE 
IM 10 (13p3-14p1) Janice Cord arrives; the stark LMD grabs her shoulder 
**IM 11-FB (7p3) Janice and "Tony" (LMD) converse observed by Tony Stark 
IM 10 (14p2-14p3) Tony escorts Janice out 

CRIMSON DYNAMO/PROF. ANTON VANKO 
**IM 22-FB (8p4) Shows Vanko developing the Crimson Dynamo armour with Alex Nevsky (Crimson Dynamo III) -before premier's visit 
Note: this FB precedes the two flashbacks in TOS 46 and TOS 52 referenced in my Tales of Suspense post 
TOS 46 

CRIMSON DYNAMO III/ALEX NEVSKY ("NIVEN") 
** IM 22-FB (8p4) Shows Nevsky working with Vanko developing the original Crimson Dynamo armour. (10p2-10p3)  on the run and escaping to America 
IM 15 

CRUSHER/EL PROFESSOR 
TOS 91 
**IM 6-FB (4p7-7p1) how Crusher survived last encounter 
IM 6 

EGO 
MAXSEC:DP 
*IM 34-BTS s/b IM3 34-BTS 
*IM 35-FB-BTS s/b IM3 35-FB-BTS 
MAXSEC 1-FB 

FIREBRAND/GARY GILBERT 
**IM 48-FB1 (7p4 - 8p2) Firebrand growing up; harnessing Thermal energy 
IM 27 
**IM 48-FB2 (8p5) Firebrand improves his powers following his first defeat 
IM 48 

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
NFAOS 14 
**IM 16-FB (3p2-3p4) retrieving Sitwell following the crash 
IM 16 

HOGAN, HAROLD J. "HAPPY" 
IM 21 
**IM 26-FB (3p6-3p7) detailing Peppers kidnapping by the Collector 
IM 26 

HOGAN, VIRGINIA "PEPPER" POTTS 
IM 19 
**IM 26-FB (3p6-3p7) detailing Peppers kidnapping by the Collector 
IM 26 

IGOR 
FF@ 3 
*IM 15 entry should be removed. The Red Ghosts apes in IM 15 and 16 were Alpha and Beta, who returned themselves to the wild in IM 16 
*IM 16 entry should be removed. The Red Ghosts apes in IM 15 and 16 were Alpha and Beta, who returned themselves to the wild in IM 16 
DEF 7 

IRON MAN/TONY STARK 
IM 10 (13p2) Iron Man remembers Cord lab 
**IM 11-FB (7p2) Tony Stark working in the lab 
IM 10 (13p3-14p1) Janice Cord arrives; the stark LMD grabs her shoulder 
**IM 11-FB (7p3) Janice and "Tony" (LMD) converse observed by Tony Stark 
IM 10 (14p2-14p3) Tony escorts Janice out 
. . . . . 
IM 24 
**IM 25-FB (3p1-20p1) a few days prior to IM 25 
IM 25 

JONES, GABE 
NFAOS 14 
**IM 16-FB (3p2-3p4) retrieving Sitwell following the crash 
IM 16 

MCCALL, MEREDITH 
**IM 28-FB (6p3-7p1) at 17 yrs old with Tony Stark 
IM 28 

MERCENARY/ 
**IM 23-FB (7p6-8p1) being contacted for the hit on Cheryl Porter 
IM 23 

MIKHLO 
FF@ 3 
*IM 15 entry should be removed. The Red Ghosts apes in IM 15 and 16 were Alpha and Beta, who returned themselves to the wild in IM 16 
*IM 16 entry should be removed. The Red Ghosts apes in IM 15 and 16 were Alpha and Beta, who returned themselves to the wild in IM 16 
M/S&L /3 

MINOTAUR II 
Real name: Miklos Vryolak (IM 24 6p3,5p7) 
**IM 24-FB (8p3-8p6) early development of Miklos condition 
IM 24 

NIGHT PHANTOM/TRAVIS HOYT 
**IM 14-FB (5p3-5p5) origin 
IM 14 

PEATOR 
FF@ 3 
*IM 15 entry should be removed. The Red Ghosts apes in IM 15 and 16 were Alpha and Beta, who returned themselves to the wild in IM 16 
*IM 16 entry should be removed. The Red Ghosts apes in IM 15 and 16 were Alpha and Beta, who returned themselves to the wild in IM 16 
DEF 7 

SANDHURST, VINCENT 
**IM 12-FB (9p3-11p4) Vincents (and the Controllers) history 
IM 7 

SITWELL, JASPER 
NFAOS 13 
IM 15 (1-12p3) whereUnicorn blasts Sitwell 
**IM16-FB (1) Sitwell dodges full force 
IM 15 (12p4-12p5) control unit explodes; Unicorn abandons ship 
**IM 16-FB (2-3p4) Unicorn escapes; Sitwell jumps, is injured and rescued 
IM 16 (1) SHIELD 'debriefing' via Psionic-Amplifier 
. . . . . 
IM 35 
*IM 36 Im not seeing Sitwell in IM 36. At best a BTS as Iron Man tells us Jasper Sitwella man in critical condition implying he is still in the hospital. 
**IM 38-BTS (2p1) doctors report on Sitwells condition 
IM 39 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
ASM 105 (1-10) 
**IM 45-BTS Peter Parker takes a photo of IM and Guardsman fighting. The photo with credit appears on pg 1 of the Bugle (dated Feb 3 1977) presumably the next morning (IM 46 pg 1). Likely a few places it could go but I place the shot as taken during the late evening following Harrys welcome home party, the night that Peter returns from the Savage Land. 
ASM 105 (11-22) 

SPYMASTER/"JAKE JORDAN" 
IM 34 
**IM 35-FB (3p4) continues with Spymasters escape and shows that Spymaster plans to abandon the Espionage Elite 
IM 35 

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
IM 24 
* IM 25 s/b IM 25-FB (3p1-20p1) takes place a few days prior to IM 25 

TITANIUM MAN/BORIS BULLSKI 
TOS 94 
**IM 23-FB-BTS (6p3- 7p1) Captain reveals he is smuggling in the Titanium Man. 
**IM 21-BTS ( 16p5,17p1) unseen; in box 
IM 22 

UNICORN/MYLOS MASARYK 
IM 4 
**IM 15-FB (4p1 - 4p4) how Unicorn survived last encounter 
IM 15 up to 12p3 where the Unicorn blasts Sitwell 
**IM 16-FB (1) Sitwell dodges full force 
IM 15 (12p4-12p5) control unit explodes; Unicorn abandons ship 
IM 16-FB 2-3p4 Unicorn escapes; Sitwell injured 
IM 15 
IM 16

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 10:12 am    Post subject: Why is Cage and blade uncannon?
By Marvel Jedi

Why! same with fury and war machine! 
thanks in advance.
_________________
-snoogans!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 01:08 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Have you read Fury, or War Machine? 


watching: cnn

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 01:31 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

To be fair -- each of those titles has more than one volume -- one of which IS canon and one of which ISN'T. 

It's entirely possible this guy has a full run of War Machine v1, and doesn't get the distinction between the Marvel series and the two MAX series. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 01:45 pm    
By Dhall

The non-cannon list in the FAQ doesn't give volume numbers. I was confused about Fury myself, as I had no idea there was a non-cannon MAX series (until recently.) 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 07:52 pm    
By SeanCurtin

At any rate, just what makes either or both of the post-movie Blade series non-canon? 

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Posted: 30 May 2004 05:22 pm    Post subject: Breaks in Daredevil, Howard the Duck, Thing:Freakshow
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I'm fine-tuning the calendar and need some feedback on where the breaks between days occur in the following issues: 

HTD2 5 (at least I think it's vol. 2 -- the most recent run) -- covers two days, I think. 

T:F 4 -- covers two days. 

DD2 53 (pages 18-21) -- covers three days. 

Thanks!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 08:59 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

TGFS #1 pp. 1-4 -- Flashback to Ben's youth. 10-15 minutes total 
TGFS #1 pp 5-10 -- Better part of one day. Parade and fight with Wrecking Crew. All FFers present 
TGFS #1 pp 11-12 -- Ben has crossed town to a train yard. Could be the same day or next, but no time reference is given. We hear Reed via a comm link but Ben is the only FFer we see in the series from this point on. At the end of this sequence he falls asleep. 
TGFS #1 pp 13-19 -- Ben wakes up after and indeterminant amount of time. We learn in #4 that he is roughly 568 miles from New York (State?) so he was asleep for between 6-12 hours depending on how fast the train was going. This sequence has him walk 3 miles to town, plus take a bath in a lake. Maybe an hour or so total. 

TGFS #2 pp 1-22 -- This picks up right from the end of #1 and runs pretty much with no appreciable breaks. The issue ends sometime after nightfall. 

TGFS #3 p 1 -- Summary page, as told by Ben 
TGFS #3 pp 2-22 -- Picks up from the end of #2 and runs straight through with no appreciable breaks. It is night throughout the issue, but no moon is shown 

TGFS #4 pp 1-22 -- Picks up from end of #3 and runs straight through with no appreciable breaks. Story ends shortly after daybreak of the day after #2. Ben is last seen walking 568 miles back to New York. 

HTD #1 p1 - p6 panel 1 -- One evening in the "dead of winter". 
HTD #1 p6 panel 2 - p12 panel 1 -- The next day, all day. 
HTD #1 p12 panel 2 - p15 panel 3 -- The next evening, beginning at 5 pm 
HTD #1 p15 panel 4 - p23 -- The next evening, beginning at 5pm 

HTD #2 p1-22 -- Picks up a little while after #1 (enough time for Bev and Howard to go home) and runs straight through evening until the next morning. 

HTD #3 p1-22 -- Bev and Howard have apparently been house/apartment-hunting for at least a the better part of a day, perhaps longer. Issue begins in the evening and runs more or less straight through until the next morning. There is one "mile and a half" walk that's glossed over, but that's the largest break I see offhand. 

HTD #4 p 1-11 -- Bev and Howard head to a place that boards them. It appears to be night by the time they get there, so the issue apparently starts 8-12 hours after #3. There's a potential break at the end of this sequence as the two try to go to sleep. 
HTD #4 p12-22 -- The story is presented as more-or-less continuous from the first half. The art suggests the two do actually go to sleep before being rudely awakened by gunfire, and the dialogue is non-descript. But there are no captions or anything saying they do indeed fall asleep or if any time has actually passed bewteen the two pages. 

HTD #5 p1-6 -- Starts at "half past the hour of the wolf" at breakfast. They head to a TV studio downtown. 
HTD #5 p7-21 -- By afternoon (see notes on HTD #6) they're filming The Iprah Show. Runs straight through and ends with Howard turning to dust. 

HTD #6 p 1-19 -- Howard chats with God. I don't know that time is really relevant here. 
HTD #6 p20-21 -- Howard lands back on the set of The Iprah Show. He claims "I've been out out or gone for hours, at the very least. It was mid-afternoon when we got to The Iprah Show, and now it's the dead of..." Presumably he was going to end with "night" given the starry sky. :smile:

DD #53 -- You don't actually have the issue, do you? :wink: That part is a peyote-induced vision quest. You can pretty much throw in any breaks you want/need over the three days.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 11:55 am    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
DD #53 -- You don't actually have the issue, do you? :wink: That part is a peyote-induced vision quest. You can pretty much throw in any breaks you want/need over the three days. 
<<<


Sean's right, but I'll pull this issue back out in a couple days and see if I can make sense of it for you. 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 12:54 pm    Post subject: Passage of time
By dimadick

"DD #53 -- You don't actually have the issue, do you? That part is a peyote-induced vision quest. You can pretty much throw in any breaks you want/need over the three days." 

True. The pages include seemingly random images accompanated by Echo's subjective narration. There is little to indicate the passage of time. 

Page 18 : Images of Echo meditating under a forest tree. Green leaves seem to be falling from its almost naked branches. 

Narration: "Night turns to dawn, and day turns to night, the wind blows, and it rains and stops raining". 

"I listened to stories of people being visited by wolf spirits, and coyote spirits, eagle spirits, and hearing words from their dead ancestors in the form of animal or nature manitous that approached them during their past". 

"I began to understand that the vision quest is a way of leaving your old kind of boxed in thinking behind. It is a way of shedding fear and opening yourself up so that you can see the solutions and lessons from nature that are right under your nose. Even though they may not come in the language that you are used to". 

"I think of my father. Remembering all the animal stories he told me. The lessons that were in the stories. He didn't tell me what the lessons were. He let me figure them out. He asked me if I learned anything from the story". 

"And when I told him my interpretations, he smiled. He didn't say if I was right or wrong. He let me see my own lessons in the story, even if they weren't the ones other people might see." 

Page 19, "panel" 1. Echo observing a rabbit. Narration: "I fall into something like a dream or a memory. When I open me eyes there is a rabbit sniffing at my feet. The first thing I think of is a children's book where the girl follows the rabbit into the woods and then she begins to change in size and shape. I just look at it. Appreciating it. Until it has sniffed me enough and scampers off." 

Page 19, "panel" 2. Echo observes a dog. Narration: "It is a dog. A wild dog sniffing my face. Its hot breath mixes with my own. And its wet nose brushes against mine. I'm not sure what this means, but I realize that I'm not afraid. "You must be the dog spirit?" I say. "Are you going to tell me something? Do you have a message from my father?" The dog looks at me, cocks his leg to a nearby tree, urinates, and walks away. I search the scenery for some kind of code or detail to insight. After a time, my eyes go closed again". 

Page 20, "panel" 1. Echo observes two dogs fighting under a crescent moon. Narration: "When I open my eyes I see two dogs fighting right in front of me. It is the big dog from before, and another wild dog. It is a vicious fight. Probably over territory. Tearing at each other. Going for the throat. Crashing through trees and bushes. They don't stop. They don't even seem to get tired. This happens for a long time. Until it goes completely dark". 

Page 20, "panel" 2. Echo observing an owl under the stars. Narration: "When the moon moves over my direction, I get a bit more light. No sign of the dogs. But I notice a pair of wide yellow eyes up in the tree that the dog peed on. I'm told that owls ask questions. "Who?", over and over. I wonder if this owl is asking me that. I remember that the Chief said that his quests involve asking himself three questions. "Who am I?" "What have I become with the who that I am?" and "Why am I here?" I wonder if the owl is here to remind me of that. I decide that he is. And I thank him. The owl flees away". 

Page 21: Maya observing a series of lightnings. Leaves continue to fall but are now collored brown. Narration: "There is a chill in my body that I recognize as thunder. It rains hard. I haven't seen any animals for a while, so I expected it. The wind blows a different way, and the trees turn their leaves upside down to catch the water. It's darker than ever. I'm thinking that I won't see any more animals until morning. I decide that maybe I am to learn something from the rain. But that seems so abstract. Then the lightning flashes again and I see something moving in the distance. I'm so interested in it that I forgot the thunder would come a second later and its chill catches me off guard. A hot instictive bit of red fear or surprise jolts through my system. There is definitely something there. Something Big. Getting closer. Moving right at me. The sky light up again, and I see the silhouette in the trees. I think I even saw its face. The thunder surprises me again. and makes my body shake. I tell myself that I will be ready for it next time. I strain into the darkness, through the screen of rain and moving trees and blowing leaves. It's close now. It's right there". 

You already know that page 22 reveals that "it" is better known as Wolverine. You can probably now draw your own conclusions for the events depicted in the pages in question.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 01:44 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

So I guess I could record the vision quest as follows? 

Day 1: page 18 
Day 2: page 19 
Day 3: page 20-21
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 02:14 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Yeah, that works for me. I'm out at my parents for Memorial Day, and couldn't get to my issue for a couple days anyway. Thanks, Dimadick. 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 05:53 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
TGFS #2 pp 1-22 -- This picks up right from the end of #1 and runs pretty much with no appreciable breaks. The issue ends sometime after nightfall. 

TGFS #3 p 1 -- Summary page, as told by Ben 
TGFS #3 pp 2-22 -- Picks up from the end of #2 and runs straight through with no appreciable breaks. It is night throughout the issue, but no moon is shown 

TGFS #4 pp 1-22 -- Picks up from end of #3 and runs straight through with no appreciable breaks. Story ends shortly after daybreak of the day after #2. Ben is last seen walking 568 miles back to New York. 
<<<
 



If TGFS 4 ends shortly after daybreak of the day after TGFS 2, then about where does midnight fall? Sometime during issue #3 or #4?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jun 2004 04:20 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

You actually work off midnight as the break between specific days? I figure it would be much easier to use daybreak, and that's what I do when I work on my X-Men calendar (progressing very slowly).
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jun 2004 06:56 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
You actually work off midnight as the break between specific days?  
<<<


Well, that is when the date changes...
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jun 2004 09:45 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
TGFS #2 pp 1-22 -- This picks up right from the end of #1 and runs pretty much with no appreciable breaks. The issue ends sometime after nightfall. 

TGFS #3 p 1 -- Summary page, as told by Ben 
TGFS #3 pp 2-22 -- Picks up from the end of #2 and runs straight through with no appreciable breaks. It is night throughout the issue, but no moon is shown 

TGFS #4 pp 1-22 -- Picks up from end of #3 and runs straight through with no appreciable breaks. Story ends shortly after daybreak of the day after #2. Ben is last seen walking 568 miles back to New York. 
<<<

If TGFS 4 ends shortly after daybreak of the day after TGFS 2, then about where does midnight fall? Sometime during issue #3 or #4? 
<<<


Sometime during #3 presumably, but I don't see any chronal references between nightfall and sunrise. No clocks, no dialogue to indicate the passage of time, no moon to rise and fall... For the sake of simplicity, it might be easiest just to put midnight between the two issues.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jun 2004 09:52 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks to all for answering my questions. Just one more, probably for Kevin... 

From Kevin's analysis of some time ago, I think there's a break between days in H3 25 but I don't know where.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 08:42 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
You actually work off midnight as the break between specific days?  
<<<

Well, that is when the date changes... 
<<<

Yeah, but... it makes things a bastard! And for me the date changes when I get out of bed - today, 8 PM!
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 08:58 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
Yeah, but... it makes things a bastard! And for me the date changes when I get out of bed - today, 8 PM! 


8...PM? :shocked:

Dividing stories into days is apt to be a challenge no matter what time we choose as the divider. Since I label the days as dates, I figured midnight to midnight is the way to go for the sake of accuracy.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 04:11 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

That smiley you used? That's about what I look like when I get out of bed. I've been laid up with bronchitis this week, though, so that's my excuse for getting up late. 

I still prefer to use daybreak as the marker between days, as opposed to midnight. You can categorically say which scenes fall on which side of the divide. But midnight is much better from a factual standpoint. Ah, the perils and pitfalls of calendarizinging!
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 07:03 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
That smiley you used? That's about what I look like when I get out of bed. I've been laid up with bronchitis this week, though, so that's my excuse for getting up late.  
<<<


8 at night really IS late. Or maybe it's 8 PM Eastern Standard Time, which would be a very different time of day for you. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2004 05:24 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Thanks to all for answering my questions. Just one more, probably for Kevin... 

From Kevin's analysis of some time ago, I think there's a break between days in H3 25 but I don't know where. 
<<<


I'll check my issue and reply to this on Wednesday.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 03:17 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Okay, upon double checking, yes there is a break between pages 35 and 36 of Hulk #25. This could be a break of one day, or could be several days later. Page 35 wraps up the battle between Hulk and the Abomination, as Gen. Ross and the army "arrest" Emil Blonsky, (this takes place in New Hampshire, I believe). Page 36 shows the epilogue, with Banner confronting Emil one last time inside the prison cell where they are keeping Emil locked up, (in Area 51, we won't see him again till Hulk #50). 

And so you know: there are 40 pages of story in Hulk #25. 

Hope that helps. 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 09:10 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, Kevin. I sent you an e-mail asking the same question about H3 12 and 20. (Just cleaning up the last few uncertain page breaks in the calendar.)
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 03:24 am    Post subject: specsm 1/ asm 116-118
By rhod

(Before I start I'll just mention I don't own specsm1, and my memory for detail is sketchy so please don't anyone interrogate me about it) 

As noted by SeanCurtin in another thread, the first story of specsm1 was retold in asm 116-118 and therefore only one of the other of the 2 should be listed. However there are problems: 
At the moment both versions are listed in several characters chronologies, including Spidey's and Richard Raleigh's(the politician who transpires to be the villain of the piece). Raleigh in particular has me bemused as his current listing has him appearing in specsm(where he is killed) then daredevil 42(where he is a dead body), then asm116( where he is alive and well). 

OK so onto the problems: 
1) Specsm1 features slightly different characters insupporting roles, not all of whom can be incorporated into asm116-118, (Captain Stacy, for one, as he was dead by the time of asm116-118). This rules out eg asm116~specsm1 
2)If we throw out specsm1 altogether it means asm116-118 must take place at the same time as dd42, forcing one of these way out of publication order 
3)Can we disregard asm116-118? As one of Marvel's core titles I would be reluctant to throw out any issues of ASM, also I'm not sure how this would affect other stories and characters around this time. 

I'll check back through my issues to see how 2) works, in the meantime, any thoughts?

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 07:24 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

The Official Index to the Amazing Spider-Man was equivocal about the canonicity of Spectacular Spider-Man #1 (the magazine) vis-a-vis Amazing Spider-Man #116-118. I don't own the original comics, but here is my impression, based on a reading of the Index. 

Spectacular Spider-Man #1 is a canonical story that occurs between pages 4 and 12 of Amazing Spider-Man #59. 

Amazing Spider-Man #116-118 reprinted the story in Spectacular Spider-Man #1, but altered the story to make it appear like it was happening between issues #115 and #119 (e.g. all references to George Stacy were deleted, the names of some of the villains were changed, dialogue was altered to make references more contemporary, and the depiction of Spidey's mask was altered). These reprinted and altered portions of ASM 116-118 are, I believe, non-canonical. 

These issues of ASM featured new artwork that brought the page count in each issue to 20 pages. For the most part, this artwork interweaves with the original scenes from Spectacular Spider-Man #1. IMHO, if this added artwork fits in with the original story, not the altered version, then it should be considered canonical. 

Amazing Spider-Man #117 does, however, feature an added scene (featuring Dr. Octopus' gang) unrelated to the original story in Spectacular Spider-Man #1. This scene is a subplot that actually does occur between ASM 115 and 118 and is in fact canonical.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 08:46 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

But why can't we do this for every story that is originally thought not canon? By that, I mean, why not toss out only the scenes that don't fit, and include the scenes that do, in, say, FF 1234? This, I believe, is the path to chaos. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 09:04 am    
By Dhall

There's a difference (IMO) though between trying to take scenes from something that reprints and alters the original story with added scenes, and just picking and choosing panels out of say 1234, or a non-cannon MAX series. Otherwise we'd have to toss out Classic X-Men, which basically does reprint/alter old stories and add new canon material. 

Of course there are degrees of alteration to consider, and I don't know where these spider-man issues would fit. I would be more inclined to consider the original story as canon, rather than the altered reprint (if we had to choose between the two.) 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 09:17 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Hmm. I wasn't previously aware of this glitch. Some initial thoughts:- 

Despite the alterations, SPECSM 1 and ASM 116-118 are essentially the same story. They can't both be canon. That would be absurd. Spider-Man can't have had substantially the same adventure twice. 

However, ASM 116-118 clearly revises continuity references in order to be consistent with the then status quo of ASM. So it can't be dismissed as just an extended flashback to the original story, at least without ignoring some changes that were clearly deliberate insertions. 

So, what are our options? 

1. SPECSM 1 is canon. ASM 116-118 isn't. It's just a slightly unusual series of reprint issues and completely irrelevant for canon purposes. 

2. ASM 116-118 is canon. SPECSM 1 is not canon (and possibly never was, though it doesn't matter now). 

3. The awkward hybrid approach: SPECSM 1 is canon. ASM 116-118 are not canon, insofar as no story of that sort takes place between ASM 115 and ASM 119. However, its additional scenes are to be treated as insertions into SPECSM 1. 

Option 3 is cumbersome, unnecessary and undesirable. Something must be jettisoned from continuity whatever happens, and once that point is reached, it might as well be kept simple. Besides, it's internally inconsistent to dismiss ASM 116-118 as non-canon and yet take its extra scenes into account. 

So, that leaves a more straightforward choice: Which version is correct, SPECSM 1 or ASM 116-118? I would be interested to know whether subsequent issues of ASM make any references to ASM 116-118. Provisionally, however, I would go for ASM 116-118, for the following reasons. 

1. It's a core title. SPECSM 1 is a fairly obscure magazine format book. I'm predisposed to favour core titles over marginal books, all else being equal. 

2. RAMPAGING HULK provides a precedent for treating magazine format stories as doubtful and disregarding them where a contradiction arises. 

3. ASM 116-118 aren't simply a reprint with added scenes. They revise the story to make it fit into contemporary continuity. This is clearly a conscious editorial decision. 

4. It also suggests that, at the time of ASM 116-118, the editors took the view that SPECSM was not canon. Straightforward reprints were not uncommon in those days. It seems more likely that the editors considered themselves to be taking a non-canon source akin to the newspaper strip, and using it to construct a new canonical story out of off-cuttings. 

5. ASM comes later. If SPECSM was intended to be canon at the time, then evidently Marvel changed their mind. Retconning the Marvel Universe - in whatever manner they see fit - is within their discretion.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 01:14 pm    Post subject: An analysis
By dimadick

Spider.Fan seems to have noticed that problem some time ago. They have posted a detailed and comparative analysis of both versions. See if it might help our chronologists get a better perspective on the subject. See: http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/reviews/spiderman_spectacular_magazine/001.html

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 02:51 pm    
By Dhall

After reading the synopsis of the two, I feel inclined to agree with Paul on this. ASM 116-118 are canon, and the magazine isn't. Clearly, this was done on purpose (though I'm not sure why) and was what the editorial staff intended. If it was just meant as a reprint to fill time, they could have published the issue as such, instead of making changes to it to fit then-current chronology. 

It's also clearly not a Classic X-Men case, where a few panels are added, or dropped, but the main storyline reamins unchanged. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 02:59 pm    Post subject: Daredevil#42 throws in a wrench
By Enda80

Richard Raleigh appears in that issue alive at the start of the story, and at the end, he is dead. 

Spec#1 took place inbetween.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 07:14 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Yes, Daredevil #42 certainly poses a problem. Now, that's the issue for July 1968, the same month as Spectacular Spider-Man #1. Amazing 116-118 come from January 1973. 

Is Raleigh's death actually relevant to the plot of Daredevil #42, or is it simply a background colour reference to another title? If the latter, my view would be to ignore it, on the basis of an evident editorial decision in 1973 to revise continuity. 

If Raleigh "dies", the death is relevant to the plot, but is somehow explicable, I would leave it to stand and let him die properly in Amazing #116-118. 

If on the other hand Raleigh MUST die, properly, in Daredevil 
#42 then we have a clash between two core titles and a much more difficult problem emerges. My instinct would still be to go for the later version, simply on the basis that the most recent authoritative interpretation prevails over all earlier ones, at least where there is clear evidence that the relevant editors have put some thought into it.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 08:09 pm    Post subject: Daredevil 42 plot synopsis
By rhod

We now have the problem, then, that dd42 has to tie in with asm116-118, despite being published 5 years apart. This creates further problems: 
DD42 must occur soon after DD41 as Daredevl, Foggy and Karen Page are shown to be mourning the 'death' of Mike Murdock (Matt's 'twin brother'/alter-alter-ego). It also must occur before DD48 as it features Foggy running for DA (he is elected to the post in 48). Both of these points are pretty important for DD continuity at the time, Foggy's campaign being integral to the plot of this particular issue. 

Synopsis: Matt Murdock has ostensibly killed off Daredevil in the previous issue,( those around him believe Daredevil to have been Matt's brother Mike). Foggy is running for D.A. Richard Raleigh, running for mayor, realises he can't have someone as incorruptible as Foggy as his D.A. and so hires the Jester to kill Foggy Nelson. Murdock is forced to don his costume to protect his friend, claiming to be a new Daredevil trained by Mike Murdock before his death. 
The Jester chickens out of fighting Daredevil, goes to Raleigh's apartment to tell him the deal's off. DD follows him, they both find Raleigh's dead body(pictured+no detectable heartbeat=definitely dead), Jester escapes promising to kill DD next time they meet, the end. 

This would seem to suggest that in order to keep asm 116-118 canon, the whole of DD and ASM will have to shift, calender-wise so as to meet at this point, however I do not have all the issues from this time to check whether this is possible

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 08:28 pm  
By SeanCurtin

DD 42 and SPECSM 1 were both published in July 1968. They were probably meant to occur concurrently; comics.org described Raleigh's appearances in both as a crossover. Which doesn't help if the ASM version is canon, which seems the likeliest option to me. Seems to me that we'll have to just ignore the fact that Raleigh was dead in DD 42 (he must've faked his death, or something). 

--Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 08:35 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Different characters, same name? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2004 08:39 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

I'd be reluctant to start retconning Raleigh into two separate characters. Clearly this poses difficulties, but if we accept that SPECSM 1 was removed from continuity in favour of ASM 116-118, that would imply knock-on effects in DAREDEVIL. Maybe in the revised version Raleigh just disappeared, or something like that. He obviously can't have died.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2004 10:03 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

A character coming back from seeming death with no explanation? 

My God, this has never happened before! What will we do? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 9

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 04:28 pm    Post subject: Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine
By Marvologist

I see that this magazine version of Spectacular Spider-Man is listed on the Key page along with the other in-canon titles, not in the list of non-canon titles in the FAQ section. But I want to confirm with you guys whether this is correct. Was this magazine comic actually part of MU continuity? I notice The Transformers is also listed among the in-continuity titles, but obviously that series is not part of the MU (ignoring alternate universes that are part of Marvel's larger multiverse scheme). 

So I'm guessing there are a few minor mistakes in the Key list, and not everything there should be automatically assumed to be in-continuity?
_________________
I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 04:41 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Uh ... can you explain to those of us who've never read it why it SHOULDN'T be canon? 

I mean, it's a comic from Marvel starring Spider-Man. You'd assume those things are canon. What about this book makes you think it's not? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 05:45 pm    
By Marvologist

I didn't explain what I was referring to clearly enough. I was using the term "magazine" to distinguish the type of magazine format you find on newsstands from regular comic books. "Magazine" can be confusing when you're talking about comics. 

Confusing things even more is the fact that there is a half-tab comic with the same title, Spectacular Spider-Man. I didn't mean that one. 

I was referring to the Spider-Man magazine that was akin to the black and white magazines Conan and the Hulk had. I'm not sure if it was also black and white. On the FAQ page, the Hulk black and white magazine is listed among titles that are not part of the canon. So this lead me to wonder if the Spider-Man magazine of this type should also be disregarded.
_________________
I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 07:59 pm    
By SeanCurtin

The first story from Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine #1 was retold in a two-part storyline in Amazing Spider-Man; only one version of those events could be canonical, and it's only natural to accept the ASM version over the SPECSM version. However, the backup story in SPECSM #1 adds new material to Spidey's origin (material that was later confirmed in ASM #200), and that is what's included. 

Similarly, the Hulk stories in Hulk Magazine aren't canonical (though I don't recall exactly why they aren't; are these the stories that were invented by Bereet?), but the Moon Knight backup stories in the Hulk Magazine are canon. 

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 08:39 pm    
By Marvologist

Wow, what a delicate situation these Marvel continuity questions can put us in. The way specific issues of a series, scenes, back-up stories, and whole titles get parceled out and divided up with respect to continuity just amazes me. The more I read at the MCP and its message board the more I realize how many threads there really are comprising this thing we call the Marvel Universe, and how many of those threads need to be cut, or undone, or interwoven, or rewoven to make this whole business of Marvel continuity make more sense. Thanks for that specific answer, though. 

I had no idea the Hulk and Spider-Man magazines were so complicated to deal with in terms of the overall canon we're all trying to sort out. 

I'm not sure who Bereet is; I've never read the Hulk magazines. By the way you phrase that question, it sounds as though Bereet's stories had either a bad reputation for some reason, or there was some well known situation concerning his particular story contributions to the Hulk magazine. I'm curious to know what it is about him that would make you wonder if just the fact of the magazines containing his stories might be the reason the stories aren't included. I'm interested in the history behind the Marvel Universe's fictional history. 

It is funny to wonder about how these things are decided, which titles are canon and which are not, let alone which particular stories within a title are canon or not. I'd also like to know where the information came from that the Hulk magazine stories aren't canon. 

It's curious that the Moon Knight stories were included as canon, but not the Hulk stories from the same magazine. Do you know why Moon Knight's stories are considered canon, and who determined that? I want to know because I find it surprising that anyone at Marvel was even thinking of this in such a particular way. For such an obscure thing as Moon Knight back-up stories in a magazine that wasn't even one of the regular comic books, involving one of their less popular characters. 

I'm sure Mark Gruenwald would take this kind of fine point with the Moon Knight stories seriously, but I'm not assuming he was the one that made this official. I'm hoping you know where this came from. And hopefully someone else out there can explain to us the opposite issue, the question of why the Hulk's stories are not Marvel reality. 

I'm usually long-winded. But my God does it ever take scholarly attention to detail to understand Marvel and DC chronology. Don't get me wrong though. This is what I like about it.
_________________
I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 09:10 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Marvologist wrote: 
>>>
Wow, what a delicate situation these Marvel continuity questions can put us in. The way specific issues of a series, scenes, back-up stories, and whole titles get parceled out and divided up with respect to continuity just amazes me. 
<<<


If you know of a case where we've declared some "scenes" in a story canon, and other scenes non-canon, please bring it to our attention. I'd like to avoid that. In my mind, a story is either canon or it's not. 


Marvologist wrote: 
>>>
It is funny to wonder about how these things are decided, which titles are canon and which are not, let alone which particular stories within a title are canon or not. I'd also like to know where the information came from that the Hulk magazine stories aren't canon. 
<<<


The rule of thumb is that stories are canon unless (a) Marvel says they aren't, or (b) they can't be. 

A particular issue can contain any number of stories, some of which are canon, and some which aren't. I'm not sure why that would come as a surprise. 


Marvologist wrote: 
>>>
For such an obscure thing as Moon Knight back-up stories in a magazine that wasn't even one of the regular comic books, involving one of their less popular characters. 
<<<


Well, I'm not sure that Moon Knight was considered "less popular" at the time the stories were published. 


Marvologist wrote: 
>>>
I'm sure Mark Gruenwald would take this kind of fine point with the Moon Knight stories seriously, but I'm not assuming he was the one that made this official. I'm hoping you know where this came from. And hopefully someone else out there can explain to us the opposite issue, the question of why the Hulk's stories are not Marvel reality.  
<<<


I'll try. I believe the Hulk stories in Hulk Magazine were originally intended to be canon. They told untold tales from Hulk's early years. Later, around Hulk #280-290, we were told that the Hulk stories in Hulk Magazine were actually movies directed by Bereet, an alien film director, and were entirely fictional. So in this case, the Hulk stories in the Hulk Magazine are declared non-canon because of clause a (Marvel says they're not canon). The Moon Knight stories, on the other hand, are declared canon, because neither a nor b is true. 


watching: bruce almighty

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 09:42 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
By the way you phrase that question, it sounds as though Bereet's stories had either a bad reputation for some reason, or there was some well known situation concerning his particular story contributions to the Hulk magazine. I'm curious to know what it is about him that would make you wonder if just the fact of the magazines containing his stories might be the reason the stories aren't included.  
<<<


Bereet is not a Marvel writer, or even a real person, but rather a Marvel character (see her listing in the MCP). She was an alien film maker who made movies about the Hulk. At some point in Hulk v2 it was established that the stories in Rampaging Hulk (the magazine) were fictional productions by Bereet.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 05:42 am    
By michel

If I recall correctly only issues #1-9 of the Hulk Magazine were considered non-canon as Bereet's scenarii. Issues #10-25 appear in the Hulk chronology of the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 12:04 pm    
By Marvologist

Quote: 
>>>
If you know of a case where we've declared some "scenes" in a story canon, and other scenes non-canon, please bring it to our attention. I'd like to avoid that. In my mind, a story is either canon or it's not.  
<<<


There actually isn't any example of that, I was speaking from vague impressions that were scattering around in my mind as I was reading the message boards here, seeing how detailed the selection process can be. Now that I pay attention this afternoon to what you are pointing out, I realize that what I said about "scenes" isn't literally true, it just conveys the overall impression I had of all the particulars we have to sift through in order to figure out this puzzle called the Marvel Universe. The way I wrote it sounded as if I was making a literal statement, though. Sorry for that bit of confusion. There's no misinformation on the site in that regard. 

I've always known that the MU was complicated. But the amount of things I'm learning here shows me that the details go far beyond what I was previously aware of. The sorting of what is and isn't canon goes down to so many more levels than I had conceived of before. But I find all this much more fasincating than if the Marvel comics published through the decades were all separate, isolated stories that didn't link into a larger world. The way all these many disparate pieces fit together makes each title and issue a lot more interesting than they would be individually. At least to the fans who find the larger continuity interesting, anyway. Some don't care, and just like a certain series or certain stories for their own sake. Fine for them, but I think there's more fun for us here at the MCP.
_________________
I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 12:28 pm    
By Marvologist

Quote: 
>>>
Well, I'm not sure that Moon Knight was considered "less popular" at the time the stories were published. 
<<<


I forgot to respond to this. It's interesting. I wasn't aware that Moon Knight had a better following in the past. It was just an assumption I made based on his recent series and their cancellations. The problem with assumptions is that we don't even know we're making an assumption. We just keep on thinking certain things unconsciously. 

About the Rampaging Hulk scenario, thanks for expanding on that. I found that really interesting, that those stories were retroactively (in the real world) made into movies in the MU world. I think that is such a neat way for them to have used the magazine stories. It's probably unique to superhero shared-worlds, using stories that were fully depicted and published on their own, as a fiction within a fictional world (as distinct from similar things such as showing that there is a Fantastic Four comic published within the MU).
_________________
I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 01:15 pm    
By Marvologist

Paul and michel, thanks for adding to this. (Michel, what you're revealing about the Hulk's magazine pulls the curtain back more. It's another surprise to me. I'll have to try and buy them.) 

I had no idea any of this stuff with the alien movie director had happened in the Hulk's past. It feels like the distant past, compared to what's going on in the series today. I feel that, as a series goes on for years and years, you lose the sense that all the issues in a series are connected and actually took place. The changes in the look and style of the artwork and the characters, the colouring process, and the storylines, make all the issues from years ago seem so foreign, as though they have nothing to do with the title that is being published today. When I look at a Hulk comic from the 60s or 70s or the 80s, the look and feel of them is so different compared to what the Hulk comic looks like today, that I can't believe they have anything to do with one other, that they are actually part of a continuous reality and series of events that apply to this one character. This applies to all the Marvel Universe titles. 

I don't know about the rest of you, but the differences just give me a weird feeling when I look at Marvel titles from the old days and the same Marvel titles from the present. Obviously things change, and this development in the look of any long-running series is inevitable. It just makes it seem strange visually when you look at old and new issues of one series and try to think, "These are all related. Part of one on-going world, not a broken series of self-contained stories that just happen to use the same subjects (the Marvel characters)." 

Adding to this feeling of disconnect, in whatever the current storylines are at any given time, is the way there's hardly ever any reference to the thousands of details from the many, many things that have happened in the past throughout the decades (regardless of whether there is a passage of time or not, I'm just thinking of the long chain of events the Marvel history comprises, independent of any time frame). I'm thinking of the way Kevin Smith wrote Green Arrow. I know this is by design, because it would be extremely inconvenient for a lot of readers to decipher what the hell is going on, but the various series lose that pleasing effect of the MU being a vast, coherent reality, with all kinds of fantastic things happening in one world. I know there are many exceptions this, and thank God for those. I just wish the direct impression of that cohesiveness was more continuously present. 

A lot of readers wouldn't like this because they like only certain characters and certain titles. I guess there are two different camps of readers, each side pulling this one universe in two different directions. I was hoping that the Ultimate Universe would resolve this conflict, giving each side what it wants. Then we could have a continuity-obsessed shared world. But it hasn't quite worked out that way.
_________________
I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 01:17 pm    
By Marvologist

I meant that Green Arrow was the exception, full of references to all kinds of things that happened at many different times in the character's past.
_________________
I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 01:43 pm    
By dimadick

"I had no idea any of this stuff with the alien movie director had happened in the Hulk's past. It feels like the distant past, compared to what's going on in the series today." 

No wonder! Bereet of Krylor last appeared in Incredible Hulk II #287 (September, 1983). Planet Krylor itself was destroyed in Maximum Security: Dangerous Planet (October, 2000). She is one of numerous supporting characters than are largely forgotten today. For more on Bereet see: http://www.incrediblehulk.com/bereet.html

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2004 01:58 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Does anyone here have any idea why those Rampaging Hulk stories were declared non-canon? Was there anything in them that necessitated them being tossed out? I'm just curious, because it seems like a really strange way to achieve that goal.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2004 11:18 am    
By John Simons

I have a couple early issues where the Hulk teams up with Iron Man, Thor, Wasp and Ant-Man before they formed the Avengers. I think subsequent writers/editors found this just too cute for words. These are the only two issues I have, but I think the general objection is that Moench tried to shoehorn in some Hulk prequel stories without really having them fit in properly with already-existing Hulk stories. Imagine if Busiek hadn't actually bothered reading the Lee/Ditko Amazing Spider-Mans before writing his Untold Tales of Spider-Man stories.

			*	*	*

Thread 10

Posted: 29 May 2004 04:24 pm    Post subject: Time in the Marvel universe
By Shmi

I only found the chonology page a couple days ago. It's great. I can't belive how complete it is. 

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this post or even if this post id appropriate for MCP. If the post in inappropriate, let me know and I won't do it again. 

I've been trying to figure out the passage of time in the marvel universe. I was wondering if anyone could suggest a website that would help. So far my only conclusion is that it's been 14-15 years since Fantastic Four #1 anf that Hank and Jan's would-be anniversary in Avengers (v3) 71 would have been their ninth. And even that I'm not sure about.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2004 05:01 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Most sources claim that it's been approximately ten years since FF #1 and the rest of Marvel's first wave of Silver Age titles; some sources say it's been longer, others say shorter (in an interview for Marvel: The Lost Generation, John Byrne claimed that it'd only been seven years). (By comparison, the DC Universe timelines published during Zero Hour claimed that it'd been 12 years since the beginning of the "modern" DCU.) I personally don't see any major problems with condensing 40+ years of Marvel into 10 years of "Marvel Time"; that works out to a nice 1:4 time ratio, meaning that a year's worth of publications cover a season's worth of time, and a month's worth of comics cover a week of the characters' lives (assuming that the comics published that month are all single-issue stories). The main sticking point is how long it's been since specific points in time since then, particularly the ages of Franklin Richards and Kitty Pryde, but that's more of a problem with inconsistent writing and editing.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2004 05:17 pm    
By Shmi

I was using Franklin Richards as my primary reference point, so I'm probably way off then. (Plus, Sue being 20 in FF #1, Reed's (40th, I think) birthday when Franklin was 4; and Sue being 11 years younger than Reed.) 

I was thinking an average of close to 4:1 since Franklin was born, but at only a little slower than real-time (around 1.3:1) before that. Time deffinately moved faster then. Of course, a simple ratio doesn't work when the different titles aren't exactly aligned. And different years move at differnt rates. I think FF moved at almost real-time between Valeria's birth and the beginning of this year. I don't know since then. 

Oh well, I'll keep trying.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 May 2004 09:20 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I moved this thread to the most appropriate forum. Issue Analysis is reserved for chronologists' descriptive and analytical notes on specific issues or runs of issues of various Marvel titles. 

The passage of Marvel Time has been a frequent topic of discussion here on the boards, and while folks agree that Marvel Time must be compressed relative to real time, opinions vary about: (1) the amount of time that has elapsed since FF 1; 2) the assignment of year numbers to Marvel time;and 3) the very nature of Marvel Time itself (e.g. the theory that it doesn't progress in a consistent, linear fashion, but rather like the movement of a caterpillar, making dates fluid and a calendar a useless tool for recording Marvel Time). 

The time immediately following FF 1 was roughly a 1:1 ratio with real time for a couple of years. In the Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, Vol. 1, George Olshevsky plotted 7 Marvel years between UX 1 and UX 138 (published October 1980). So that's about nine MU years already, and we still have 24 more years of Marvel stories to accommodate! 

Picking up from Olshevsky, my Avengers Year-By-Year feature at the Avengers Assemble web site plots ten MU years between A 1 and A 251 (published January 1985). 

As you can see, I'm in the small camp that believes that more than ten years have elapsed since FF 1. In fact, from working on the recent MU calendar, I believe it's been two MU years since Maximum Security. My current guess is that if FF 1 occurred in "Year 1," A 1 occurred in "Year 3," and we're now in (gasp) "Year 22!" That would make Peter Parker about 36 now, and that's hard for some folks to swallow (to me, that's still young). 

And yes, while this roughly 2:1 ratio allows decent (and proper) time for Marvel's many stories to unfold and for chronologies and temporal references to hold some semblance of integrity, it is definitely problematic when one considers how characters (especially non-super-powered ones) will age (or not) in stories published during the next 10, 20, or 30 years. 

But then part of me thinks that the powers-that-be at Marvel will just up and reboot the whole MU before we get to that point. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 10:18 pm    
By Shmi

I have read in several character profiles that Sue Storm and Reed Richards met for the first time when she was tweleve and he was staying at her aunt's boarding house. In what issue was this stated? 

Because I read a review that stated Sue and Reed met 21 years before FF3 #55. That would put Sue at 33. I believe she said at some point that shw was 20 as of FF #1. 

That would inply 12-14 years (depending on birthdays) between FF #1 and FF3 #55. 

It seems to work fairly well with Franklin's age. It implies that there were arond 4-6 years Marvel time between FF #1 and Franklin's birth. Marvel time moved faster then (18968) than it's averaged since, but had already begun to slow from real time (look at Sue's pregnancy). Five Marvel years in 7 real years seems reasonable. Plus I think it would work with Jan Van Dyne's age. Wasn't she describes as still in her teens when we met her? And we saw her twenty-third birthday. She wouldn't have been more than 24 when Franklin was born would she? 

Of course, basing time on character's ages can be misleading and I have no idea how much time has passed since then, but it's the best I can do. I'm not in the same league as most of the people here. 

Please forgive me if there are any glaringly obvious things that make this impossible.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 10:34 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Shmi wrote: 
>>>
I have read in several character profiles that Sue Storm and Reed Richards met for the first time when she was tweleve and he was staying at her aunt's boarding house. In what issue was this stated? 
<<<

I think the age difference thing is only mentioned in the Official Handbook, but there are a handful of references to Reed being a boarder during college. 


Shmi wrote: 
>>>
Because I read a review that stated Sue and Reed met 21 years before FF3 #55. That would put Sue at 33. I believe she said at some point that shw was 20 as of FF #1. 
<<<

I believe it was actually written as four to the fourth power months, but Sue's been in her early thirties now for a while now. 


Shmi wrote: 
>>>
That would inply 12-14 years (depending on birthdays) between FF #1 and FF3 #55. 
<<<

That's fine for the Fantastic Four, but you start running into problems with other characters. Kitty Pryde for example was introduced when Franklin Richards was about four. He's aged five years and she's aged around ten since then. So the big problem we run into is consistency across the MU. 


Shmi wrote: 
>>>
It seems to work fairly well with Franklin's age. It implies that there were arond 4-6 years Marvel time between FF #1 and Franklin's birth.  
<<<

Personally, I don't count Franklin's age as a reliable way to estimate the age of the MU. He's been aged and de-aged and taken out of the timestream so many times already that's his real age doesn't really have any appreciable impact on determining the MU timeline. 


Shmi wrote: 
>>>
Of course, basing time on character's ages can be misleading and I have no idea how much time has passed since then, but it's the best I can do. I'm not in the same league as most of the people here. 
<<<

The only real difference is that some of us have been looking at this stuff longer. We don't have any real opinions that are "more right" than yours. In fact, several of us flatly disagree on several points and that's part of what these boards are for -- to discuss those types of issues. 

I think I can safely speak for all those who contribute when I say we're happy that you stopped by, and we look forward to whatever thoughts you'd like to share with us. 


Shmi wrote: 
>>>
Please forgive me if there are any glaringly obvious things that make this impossible. 
<<<

Time is a tricky buisness in the Marvel Universe and it by necessity doesn't make complete sense. Our job is to organize it as best we can and resolving as many problems as we can. But we still have issues hanging out there like Ben Grimm having fought in WWII and still being young and healthy enough to help clear rubble from 9/11.  

So this will be an ongoing discussion for YEARS, I'm sure. Feel free to add whatever thoughts you have.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 08:03 pm    
By SeanCurtin

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
That's fine for the Fantastic Four, but you start running into problems with other characters. Kitty Pryde for example was introduced when Franklin Richards was about four. He's aged five years and she's aged around ten since then. So the big problem we run into is consistency across the MU. 
<<<


Kitty was thirteen years old when she first appeared (I believe this is stated on panel in a very early appearance, maybe even specified to "thirteen and a half" IIRC) and is still college-aged (~18-22) now. Given that Claremont tried to retroactively make her seventeen again in his second X-Men run, it seems to me that she really can't be more than 18-20 years old right now (probably 19ish). 5-7 years since UX 129 works out to about 8-10 years since FF@ 6, which seems reasonable. 

--Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 09:18 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
Kitty was thirteen years old when she first appeared (I believe this is stated on panel in a very early appearance, maybe even specified to "thirteen and a half" IIRC) and is still college-aged (~18-22) now. 


Then there's some guy who theorizes that Kitty is now 25... :wink:
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 10 Jun 2004 07:01 am; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 10:27 pm    
By Starman

Maybe in the Marvel Universe people are only as old as they feel. :wink:
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2004 09:09 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Kitty was thirteen years old when she first appeared (I believe this is stated on panel in a very early appearance, maybe even specified to "thirteen and a half" IIRC) and is still college-aged (~18-22) now. 
<<<


One more observation about Kitty's age. In XU 36, Kitty gets a job tending bar in Chicago. This means that she has to be at least 21 years old at that point. And she's obviously older than Dani Moonstar, who is no longer a teenager herself, as noted in NM2 2.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2004 09:42 pm    
By Shmi

I don't know for sure, but I've been told that the law in Chicago is that you have to be 21 to drink alcohol, but only 18 to serve alchol. 

I do know that the required age is as young as 18 in some parts of Illinois, but I don't know about Chicago in particular. 

http://ira.affiniscape.com/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=27

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 05:49 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

You can serve alcohol at age 18 in Illinois (think wait staff), but you must be 21 to tend bar in Illinois (see link below). I'm not sure if Chicago differs from the rest of the state, but I did see an ad for a Chicago bartenders school that requires students to be 21 years of age. 


http://www.bartendingonline.com/legalage.html#IL
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Posted: 10 Jun 2004 05:39 pm    Post subject: The Fury
By Ant-Man

Well, since The Fury has returned in Uncanny X-Men, I thought we should get a listing of appearances going: 

Marvel Super-Heroes (UK) #388 - fb 
Daredevil #7 - fb 
Marvel Super-Heroes (UK) #387 
Marvel Super-Heroes (UK) #388 
Daredevils #2 
Daredevils #6 
Daredevils #8 
Captain Britain v2 #4 - fb 
Daredevils #9 
Daredevils #10 
Daredevils #11 
Mighty World of Marvel #8 
Mighty World of Marvel #10 
Mighty World of Marvel #11 
Mighty World of Marvel #12 

I think that does it...if anyone spots a mistake, please let me know...

Last edited by Ant-Man on 11 Jun 2004 09:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2004 06:03 pm
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I have his appearance in CB2 #4 as a flashback, occuring between The Daredevils #8-9. 

Otherwise, your list agrees with mine. 

I guess I need to get back to writing this stuff up, huh? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2004 06:07 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Oh, hey, there's one we both missed -- in CB2 #14, Roma changes the past -- saving Captain UK's husband Rick from the Fury's slaughter in DDs #7-FB -- and a flashback shows that new past. So: 

MSH2 388-FB 
DDS 7-FB 
* CB2 14-FB 
MSH2 387 
MSH2 388 
DDS 2 
DDS 6 
DDS 8 
* CB2 4-FB 
DDS 9 
... 

and so on. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 08:11 am    
By Ant-Man

I was considering Captain Britain v2 #4 as an appearance, since it's a piece of the Fury that "gets" Sid...

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 10:25 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I don't consider it "a piece of the Fury", to be honest ... the Fury accidentally infects Sid with some weird mutating microbes when it comes to earth. It didn't mean to do it, and Sid doesn't exhibit any evidence of becoming "the new Fury" (that is, the Fury's personality isn't starting to show up inside him). 

I dunno, man. I wouldn't count it. 

And by the way, Sid shows up in MWoM #14 as well, doesn't he? That bum that Meggan attacked because of his smell? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 12:38 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

Looks the same, and the name is given as Sidney Crumb in both instances. 
Yes I think it is safe to say this is the same guy.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 08:59 pm    
By Ant-Man

Jeph, you're right...that's what I get for trying to work from memory and scribbled notes... 
I was thinking of the flashback in CB v2 #4 (when Sid gets infected), but I had forgotten that it was a flashback. 
I finally took the time to pull out the issue...I stand corrected! 
I'll correct the first post... 

In Daredevils #4, Sidney and Mrs. McGeary can be seen in the crowd on the next to last page (4th panel). They are identified by McGeary's smiley-face bag... 

On the last page of the CB story in Daredevils #3, they show the owners of "Forbidden Planet"...for some reason, I've always wanted to know their names, because I'm sure they're modeled after the true owners of that shop...

			*	*	*

Thread 12

Posted: 12 Jun 2004 09:31 am    Post subject: Arcade
By Ant-Man

Arcade's appearance in Daredevils #4 needs to be added between his appearances in Micronauts #45 and Uncanny X-Men #177 

Miss Locke also makes an appearance in that issue...

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jun 2004 10:24 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Let's wait til DDS #4 gets fully analyzed first, shall we? :wink:

(And I mean FULLY analyzed -- not just the CB story.) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jun 2004 12:02 pm    
By Ant-Man

Sorry... 
Since the issue appears in Captain Britain's MCP listing, I just assumed that it HAD been analyzed...

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jun 2004 12:34 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Nah. CB is one of those rare cases where a single MCP listing is complete, even though the books in it aren't fully analyzed. 

So far, only the British books up through Hulk Comic #5 have been analyzed. This is because I'm a lazy shirking bastard. 

Every other British book from HC #6 through CB2 #14, hasn't yet been analyzed -- even though they appear in CB's listing. 

I'll get around to it. I swear to God. I really want to. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jun 2004 12:14 am    
By Dhall

And we really want you to! :laughing:

Dave H

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Posted: 20 Apr 2004 07:09 pm    Post subject: Two X-Men history questions
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Both of these questions flag up my pet chronology problem: the referencing of real world events in continuity, and how they're affected by the passage of time. I realise that one possible interpretation to explain this is to shunt everything forward in time regardless of real-world history, but for reasons I've gone into before, I don't accept that approach. (Basically, I don't see any evidence in the comics to suggest that Marvel adopt it, and I can't see how the benefits of coherent continuity outweight the damage done to the Marvel Universe by distorting its mapping of the real world.) 

1. Who killed Storm's parents? 

The first Storm origin flashback appears in X-MEN vol 1 #102 (December 1976). In that issue, the history runs as follows. "Nearly 25 years ago" - ie, the early 1950s - Ororo and her family moved to Cairo. Ororo was 6 months old at the time. "Five years later", the Suez War took place. This is historically consistent, since the Suez Crisis was in 1956. 

During Suez, Cairo was besieged by British, French and Israeli forces. In X-MEN vol 1 #102, the death of Storm's parents is attributed to a French fighter aircraft being hit by flak and crashing into the family home. This of course leads her to develop claustrophobia, which is a recurring theme in the years ahead - so the entire scene can't just be thrown out of continuity. Besides, Storm's parents need to disappear off the scene somewhere in order for the rest of her history to remain valid. 

Plainly it is no longer tenable to suggest that Storm's parents were killed in the Suez Crisis. That would require her to be 50 years old, at a bare minimum. But if that's no longer supportable, what DID kill her parents? 

When the story was reprinted in CLASSIC X-MEN #10 (June 1987), the origin flashback was revised to make it generic. All references to the Suez Crisis were deleted. The pilots were no longer described as French. The flashback simply alluded to a generic middle Eastern conflict. 

So - has there actually been a historical conflict that could account for this part of Storm's origin? Or are we just going to have to invent something? It's not an insuperable problem if we do, of course - planes crash. But it's still a glitch in her timeline. 

2. Which war did Charles Xavier fight in? 

This is a really irritating one. 

Charles Xavier's military service was first established in X-MEN vol 1 #12 (July 1965), which contains the Juggernaut's origin flashback. That issue explicitly says that Charles and Cain Marko fought in the Korean War. The Korean War lasted from 1950 to 1953, so at the time that story was written, the flashback was being placed 12-15 years before. 

There is no question that Xavier DID serve in the military in present continuity. A flashback was shown as recently as UNCANNY X-MEN #389 (2001). Besides, deleting this would require a significant revisal of the Juggernaut's continuity. 

Equally, it's clear that Xavier was drafted into the military. This was established in X-MEN vol 1 #117, and it's an essential plot point to justify his break-up with Moira MacTaggert. Besides, UNCANNY #389 makes great play of the fact that Xavier was a pacifist and refused to take an active combat role (instead, he helped medics). Given that, it's highly unlikely that he volunteered for any conflict. 

So Xavier's war service (and the Juggernaut's origin) is pinned to either Korea or Vietnam. 

I'm not aware of any story which expressly disapproves Korea as the location of Xavier's military service. Traditionally, the approach has been to justify Xavier's comparatively youthful appearance on the basis of his moving to a cloned body after the Brood storyline in the early eighties. But consider these problems:- 

1. The Marvel Universe has been around for, in its terms, a little over ten years. If we hold to Korea as the site of the Juggernaut's flashback, then it is no longer a flashback to 12-15 years ago, but a flashback to some 40 years previously. 

2. Xavier is meant to be a contemporary of Magneto. Magneto's origin is expressly pinned to his childhood in the Nazi concentration camps. This points strongly to Xavier serving in Korea. 

3. BUT... Xavier met and romanced Moira MacTaggert before being drafted, per X-MEN #117. She was a student at Oxford University at the time, so it follows that she was at least 17 when he was drafted. If Xavier was drafted to fight in Korea, Moira would have to have been born in the early 1930s. There is no continuity explanation for Moira to age slowly. She was obviously not 70 when she died. Therefore Korea is untenable. On the other hand, if you move Xavier's military service to Vietnam, Moira would have died when middle aged. That would work. 

4. The flashback in UNCANNY #389 never says what war Xavier fought in. But the artwork shows a jungle. It looks a lot more like the popular image of the Vietnam War. 

I can't see how it's workable to preserve Xavier's military career as Korean, whatever X-MEN vol 1 #12 says. Vietnam is the only other option and, for the moment at least, appears to be workable. Am I missing something?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Apr 2004 08:06 pm    
By rhod

While in the real world, we know the exact dates between which wars were fought (i.e. ww2 1939-45, Korea 1950-53) is there anything to indicate that these wars occured at the same time in Marvel? We know that only 10ish years have passed in Marveltime since FF #1, why can't the Korean War have been only '10 years' ago? 

Or, how about the other way around? I just read an old issue of X-men that had an FB of Wolverine and Captain America in ww2 that was specifically dated 1941, but the present is only dated 'the present'. Is it possible to see 'the present' as only being the early- to mid-60s? 

Or should we just accept that EVERYONE ages slower in the Marvelverse regardless of superpowers/mutations etc? 

PS your theory of 1 marvel year to 4 real years is kind of scary when you think about it, I mean, Franklin Richards is due to leave high school sometime around 2030, by which time I'll be in fifties :shock:

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Apr 2004 08:08 pm    Post subject: Magneto's origin has got to go.........
By Scathach80

"2. Xavier is meant to be a contemporary of Magneto. Magneto's origin is expressly pinned to his childhood in the Nazi concentration camps. This points strongly to Xavier serving in Korea." 

Magneto's origin has got to go. Otherwise, the problem of the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver's ages comes up, since they are his children. 

The other thing is, how did Magneto stay so young?

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Apr 2004 08:22 pm
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Magneto's origin has got to go. Otherwise, the problem of the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver's ages comes up, since they are his children. 
<<<

That's not really a big issue -- CX #12/2 establishes that, after escaping from the camps, Magnus and Magda lived together peacefully for many many years. The story implies that Magda had been sexually abused in the camps, and it took Magnus a long time to gain her trust and get past her emotional walls. Meaning, they didn't start having children right off the bat. 

Little Anya, their first child, was somewhere between 7-10 the day she died, and that was the day a pregnant Magda ran away from Magnus forever. 

So, if it took Magda, say, three years to recover from her traumas, and another year to marry Magnus and have Anya, it would be 11-14 years before Wanda and Pietro were conceived. That's 1956-1959 -- and that's assuming she had Anya right off the bat. They could have lived together for years and years before starting a family. 

'Course, that would still put Wanda and Pietro in their mid-40s today. But I don't see that as a reason to call for the wholesale junking of an integral part of Magneto's origin... 

This is me leaning towards the "it's not actually 2004 in the MU" camp. 

Also, don't sweat it. In terms of CHARACTER CHRONOLOGY, these sort of temporal-reference hiccups matter very little. We're still easily able to determine the RELATIVE ORDER in which various things happened in these characters' pasts, and THAT'S the main drive of the MCP. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Apr 2004 08:29 pm    
By Dhall

The way Marvel Time works, any story that you read is always set in the present. Any real-world references made are the ones that were current at the time of publication. This explains why John Bryne was making current cultural references in X-Men: The Hidden Years, not 1970's ones. 

There is really no problem leaving things the way they are, as written, because the Marvel Universe is NOT the real universe. Who says that the only war in Korea in the Marvel Universe was in the same decade as the one in the real universe. All we know is that Xavier served in a war that was fought in Korea, some number (10-15 perhaps?) of years before X-Men 1. I see no reason that this causes us any problems. 

If you say that it does, than please explain to me, why Franklin Richards isn't 40 years old..... 

You'll just have to accept that cultural refrences in the Marvel Universe are topical. Wasn't there an issue where the FF met the Beatles? 

Also, the Marvel Universe seems to have a presidential election, every two (of our) years. I can't reconcile that with the real world, can you? 


As far as Storm goes, the scene as originally shown works fine. It doesn't mattter to me if it was the 1956 Suez Crisis, or a fictional one that takes place in the 60's, 70's or 80's. It's just a topical reference. By the way, was the plane French, or the pilot? 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Apr 2004 09:20 pm    Post subject: Marvel Years and Reed Richards
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
This is me leaning towards the "it's not actually 2004 in the MU" camp.  
<<<

That's the camp where I've had a tent pitched for some time. I've been operating on the model of MU time and real world time being in sync until the early 60s sometime (not necessarily 1961), then we see a divergence in which topical "real world" events in the MU occur in a more compressed time frame. As I've noted, 9-11 in the MU probably occurs on September 11, but not in 2001. I've been postulating that it's the early 80s in the MU now, and that the early 80s in the MU looks a lot like 2004 in the real world. 

By starting things off in the early 60s and proceeding from there, you don't have to re-do origin stories and other tales just to keep things in perspective from the ever-changing, real world "present." 

Then we come to stories like that in last weeks issue of "4." Reed Richards' grandfather serving as a young man and WWII?? Arghh!! In my model, we'd either have to pretend that the war in question was an earlier war and/or the relative in question was another person (older brother?). This, of course, changes the specifics of the story considerably. 

Marvel plays both sides of the fence on this issue. Magneto's origin is still bound up in WWII (original temporal grounding), but that same war is contemporaneous with Reed's grandfather (the temporal retcon approach). Kind of reminds me of the "Back to the Future" trilogy, which involved two totally different theories of time travel. (Don't get me started...  )
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Apr 2004 04:48 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

You see, the reason I can't accept the "compression of history" theory is because I don't see any evidence in the comics to suggest that Marvel apply that approach - and a vast amount to suggest that they don't. World War II keeps getting further and further away. Flashbacks to topical events that can't be shifted (such as wars) get de-emphasised or outright revised. The entire LOST GENERATION miniseries was published specifically to explain what happened during the multi-decade gap which had opened over time. 

The argument seems to be that you must have a compressed timeline because otherwise you can't have a consistent universe (due to immutable topical references that can't be extricated from the plot). The flaw in this argument is that it assumes that Marvel in fact aspires to that degree of consistency. It seems to me that Marvel's approach to such matters has always been to take one or other of two paths: revise history (as they've done on a couple of occasions with Iron Man's origin), or age the character when the topical references can't sensibly be removed (eg, Magneto and Punisher retain their war service). 

In contrast, I can't think of any examples which support the theory that Marvel compresses the timeline in order to maintain absolute consistency. Flashbacks are revised, historical events are invariably referred to as being in their proper timeframe relative to the date of publication. It might be NICE if Marvel ran their universe in that way, but is there any evidence at all to suggest that they DO? I can't think of any. 

I'm convinced that the Marvel Universe operates on the basis of creeping revision of history, starting with the de-emphasis of problematic topical references and proceeding to revise them outright where history is no longer tenable - an increasing problem now that the Marvel Universe has been underway for 43 years and incorporates numerous references to topical events that plainly did not happen in the 1990s. 

If push comes to shove, would Marvel seriously ask readers to accept that Flash Thompson had been drafted into the army during Spider-Man's career (and thus in the 1990s)? Of course they wouldn't. That story hasn't been revised for the simple reason that it never comes up - and I'd be willing to bet that if anyone ever does feel the need to reference Flash's military career again, it won't be in Vietnam and won't involve the draft. The problems of credibility posed by asking readers to accept this timeframe dwarf the problems of asking chronologists to revise history. 

For the moment, such stories fade into an awkward continuity limbo, where clearly SOMETHING along those lines happened, but the details will require heavy revision if and when the story is referred to again. 

Anyhow - for those who want to argue for the compressed timeline route, what evidence do you find in Marvel's stories, and Marvel's editorial policies, to support such an approach? Are you actually analysing the Marvel Universe which exists, or the Marvel Universe you would like them to publish...?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Apr 2004 06:56 am    
By Dhall

Compressed time means that Franklin Richards is not 40 in the comics.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Apr 2004 07:14 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Yes, but he's a fictional character. (And a bad example anyway, given how often he's been aged and de-aged.) 

My point is that real-world history maintains its real-world timeline. As the Marvel Universe progresses, characters (or most of them) are dragged forward through time, leaving historical events behind them and, where possible, latching onto the more modern equivalents consistent with their age. Where historical events are key plot points and not merely background colour, this requires history to be rewritten. 

The passage of real-world history does not compress to match the timelines of the fictional characters. The fact that characters don't age (or do so very slowly) doesn't bear on that.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Apr 2004 12:41 pm    
By Dhall

What does real-world history have to do with the Marvel Universe? They are two seperate things. 


Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Apr 2004 02:08 pm
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

It has to do with the Marvel Universe because they reference it all the time and tie major events in characters' lives to it! 

If you ignore them altogether, you strip the stories of all meaning. And what's the point of a mathematically correct timeline where the stories are just empty shells, because the Holocaust has been replaced by a Notional Bad Thing in 1976?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Apr 2004 02:15 pm    
By John Simons

Because nobody demanded it, heres my two bits on the whole real world/Marvel time conundrum. 

First off, I agree with Jeph that Im not sure if this question has too much bearing on the MCP itself. Whether Prof. X fought in Korea, Vietnam or (if Marvel Comics are published for long enough) Iraq, would that really affect the order in which the comics are read? 

As for the conumdrum, let me just explain how I look at my comics when Im reading them. Im not even necessarily arguing that the following should be the official position of the MCP, this is just how I approach my own collection: 

The Marvel Age (the period of time since the FFs test flight) has lasted roughly 12 years. About 15 years prior to the Marvel Age, there was a World War instigated by the Nazis and the Japanese. At the time of the Marvel Age, the threat of communism had the US on edge, Southeast Asia was in upheaval, and there was a cold war between the two superpowers. By about year 6, the USSR disbanded. In year 8, China took control of Hong Kong. In year 12, the World Trade Center was destroyed. The reason why there are no cell phones or internet in year one, but there are in year 12 is because of the presence of super-intellects like Reed Richards and Tony Stark in the MU. There isnt really a new president every two years, as the appearence of real-life figures is topical. Therefore, the president who briefly deported Captain America during Mark Waids run is probably the same guy who currently hired Tony Stark, even though they are drawn to look like Clinton and Dubya, respectively. 

Now, revisiting for a minute the discussion from a month back on the attempted Anton Vanko retcon in Crimson Dynamo 5-- if one were to subscribe to my rather laissez-faire interpretation of Marvel time, it could be argued that only the part of the FB directly contradicting TOS 46 and 52 (namely, pages 15 and 16) needs to be thrown out. If one doesnt try to interlock real time and Marvel time, I see no reason why the rest of Antons backstory (shown on pages 9-13) couldnt be added to his listing.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Apr 2004 02:47 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
The reason why there are no cell phones or internet in year one, but there are in year 12 
<<<


Oh, sure there are. Just check out "Emma Frost". She's got cellphones, laptops and the internet, and it takes place around the time of UX #43... 

Inevitably, as "year one" gets dragged forward into the 90s by Marvel editorial, there will be more and more inclusion of things like cellphones, the internet, etc. "back then" -- yet when you read a "contemporary" comic originally published in Year One, like FF #1, you'll see that clearly no such thing existed. 

My point of view, honestly? It's just best not to think about it. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Apr 2004 03:31 pm    
By Dhall

From my POV, it doesn't matter, as the "marvel time factor" doesn't change the character's chronologies in any way. 

At BEST it's completely irrelevent, as we have no way of knowing or proving that real world events a) took place in the Marvel Universe, and/or b) took place on the same dates that they did in the real one. (It is an alternate fictional universe after all, not just a fictional representation of ours up to point X.) If we have no way of knowing, it has no effect. 

At WORST it ends up with a retcon of which war someone fought in, and is this any worse than having a retcon, which say brings Jean Grey back from the dead? (to throw out an example) 

Of far more concern to me, is when the writers and editors get their own Marvel Universe hsitory wrong. (Like the Uncanny X-Men I just read where Austin put Cassidy Keep in Scotland, instead of Ireland. Now that concerns me!) 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Apr 2004 05:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Magneto's origin has got to go.........
By SeanCurtin

Scathach80 wrote: 
>>>
The other thing is, how did Magneto stay so young? 
<<<


He didn't. Alpha regressed him to infancy in DEF 15, and Eric the Red re-aged him to early adulthood prior to his reappearing in UXM. There have been more than a few references to Magneto being much younger than he should be, though the only ones that spring immediately to mind are actually in reference to Joseph, from stories when writers were operating under the assumption that Joseph was the real Magneto.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Apr 2004 05:57 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

It's fortunate we have the Alpha stuff as an explanation, because Magneto's World War II origin story would otherwise make him around 70 by now. Even as things stand, he doesn't get de-aged until DEFENDERS #16, by which point he must have been pushing 60 at best. 

It'll be interesting to see what happens in ten or fifteen years when the idea of Magneto as a concentration camp survivor becomes an obvious barrier to credibility. It's very hard to see how you can relocate his origin anywhere else without doing a drastic rewrite on the whole thing.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Apr 2004 07:16 am    Post subject: Marvel Time
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

John Simons wrote: 
Quote: 
>>>
The Marvel Age (the period of time since the FFs test flight) has lasted roughly 12 years. About 15 years prior to the Marvel Age, there was a World War instigated by the Nazis and the Japanese. At the time of the Marvel Age, the threat of communism had the US on edge, Southeast Asia was in upheaval, and there was a cold war between the two superpowers. By about year 6, the USSR disbanded. In year 8, China took control of Hong Kong. In year 12, the World Trade Center was destroyed. The reason why there are no cell phones or internet in year one, but there are in year 12 is because of the presence of super-intellects like Reed Richards and Tony Stark in the MU. There isnt really a new president every two years, as the appearence of real-life figures is topical. Therefore, the president who briefly deported Captain America during Mark Waids run is probably the same guy who currently hired Tony Stark, even though they are drawn to look like Clinton and Dubya, respectively.  
<<<


That's pretty much a summary of my approach to Marvel Time, although I'd say about 21 years rather than 12 have passed since FF 1. That's one way to make sense of "real world" topical references in the MU and, at the same time, recognize that MU time passes more slowly than real time, from our perspective. We get into trouble with the approach, however, when writers feel the need to write about historical events (like WWII, the Cold War, the Space Race, etc.) as having occurred in the MU the same number of years ago as they occurred in the real world. Thus their need to continually retcon the details of characters' histories (which, IMHO, should be sacrosanct) for the sake of the perspective of the reader in the real world "present." 

Two things I don't like about this "presentist" approach are: (1) it requires a concept of time that has no bearing on reality, and while I can accept many fantastic things in the MU, I have issues with a basic thing like the nature of time; (2) it requires mucking with details of character history -- how can we trust the integrity of stories we're reading today? 

But, yes, it's true that these retcons rarely affect the MCP because they rarely affect characters' chronologies. It's only when you try to nail a sequence of appearances on a calendar that you need to grapple with the issue of Marvel Time. And things like The Lost Generation are going to cause problems. 

But still, foolish mortal that I am, I remain undeterred in constructing a calendar, which operates under the assumption that time in the MU can be understood and interpreted on a calendar, as Olshevsky believed.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 May 2004 11:15 pm    Post subject: So what do we do?
By garbonzo

So what do we do with storylines which are clearly in continuity (or at least designed to be in continuity) that deal with specific dates which are integral to the storyline? 

For example: In the late issues of Heroes for Hire, Iron Fist summons K'un Lun to join with Earth's reality at the dawn of the new millenium. Now, I don't know about in any other universes or calendars, but a millenium only comes about once every thousand years (unlike wars). And, as we saw in the Iron Fist/Wolverine mini-series, that event came to pass. So, we have something that we must use as an iron-clad date (year 2000) and anything that has come after the Iron Fist/Wolverine storyline must be post Millenium. Right? 

So we do have at least one date that can be used to reference the rest of the times in the MU (or at least from that point forward). Time may be flexible, but there have to be some constants. Maybe everyone ages slower and has exceptionally long lives in the MU. Or, maybe we can use that one constant and backtrack to determine a reasonable time-passage (ignoring temporal/pop-culture references) for what had come before.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 May 2004 11:40 pm    
By SeanCurtin

garbonzo wrote: 
>>>
So what do we do with storylines which are clearly in continuity (or at least designed to be in continuity) that deal with specific dates which are integral to the storyline? 
<<<


Almost all of those are topical and need to be disregarded in order to actually maintain consistency with subsequent publications. Unless Marvel switches to a real-time publishing schedule (ha, ha). The only Marvel book I can recall ever using real time was Squadron Supreme... and that was only 12 issues anyways, and the team didn't reappear again afterwards for about four years of real time, which gave Marvel Time enough time to catch up. 

garbonzo wrote: 
>>>
For example: In the late issues of Heroes for Hire, Iron Fist summons K'un Lun to join with Earth's reality at the dawn of the new millenium. Now, I don't know about in any other universes or calendars, but a millenium only comes about once every thousand years (unlike wars). And, as we saw in the Iron Fist/Wolverine mini-series, that event came to pass. So, we have something that we must use as an iron-clad date (year 2000) and anything that has come after the Iron Fist/Wolverine storyline must be post Millenium. Right? 
<<<


That's actually an example that's very easily explained away: why on Earth would K'un-L'un base its convergence around the Julian calendar? K'un-L'un was founded by aliens who interacted almost exclusively with eastern Asians. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 May 2004 01:34 pm    Post subject: Other real time series
By Scathach80

Besides Squadron Supreme; 
Wolfpack was real time. 
The 'Nam was real time.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jun 2004 12:25 am
By Agent of Shield

The 12 issue Vision & Scarlet Witch limited series occured over about 9 months and at specific holidays (Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, MLK day, etc.). Too bad she couldn't keep the kids - bad mom!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2004 09:09 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

"Bad mom"??? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 05:49 pm    Post subject: Elektra in Captain America#388?
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/femizons2 

If that is Elektra, then 

DD 179 
DD 180 
DD 181 
DD 190 
**CA 388 
DD 322 
DD 323

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 05:52 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

...This wasn't meant to be a reply, was it? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 06:04 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I've split it off, Jeph. 

I don't see any reason to say that's Elektra. Even the Appendix is ambivalent on the issue. Their only reason for claiming it's Elektra is that she's holding a sai. 


watching: wcft news

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Posted: 12 Jun 2004 01:05 am    Post subject: Is "Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandos" a canon t
By Agent of Shield

I noticed the MCP entry for Nick Fury and the other Howlers only have a few references to the old '60s Sgt. Fury comics. I figure that's becuase a) nobody's bothered to chrono that series, b) the MCP doesn't count the series as canon, or c) the MCP only counts the stories that are somehow referred to in the "modern" marvel setting. 

That said, you've got Ben Grimm's appearance in Captain Savage #7, but not Reed Richards' appearance in Sgt. Fury #3. Deliberate? Both of those series' were clearly overlapping with their continuity on several occasions. 

If Sgt Fury and Capt Savage are considered canon, this puts both Richards and Grimm clearly active as college-educated adults in World War II (as their original incarnations were in the early FF stories). Makes them 80-somethings if modern marvel takes place today. 

Maybe those old Sgt. Fury comics deserve their own continuity separate from mainstream Marvel - call it Marvel WWII. Lump all Marvel WWII stories in their own continuity. That would explain Reed Richards talking about his GRANDFATHER as a WWII paratrooper in a recent issue of Knights 4. 

....unless Richards and Grimm used Doom's time machine to travel to WWII in an as-yet undisclosed adventure....

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jun 2004 01:36 am    
By Starman

I don't really see Reed Richards' and Ben Grimm's participation in the WW2 as a problem. They're comic book characters, it's not self-evident or a necessity that their years are the same length as years as in our world , or as many years has been since the WW2. And if the age difference isn't too large between Reed and his grandfather it might be possible that they both were in the war. I don't want to declare issues as non-canon just because they're old, or took place a long time ago in our world. 
Just use some suspension of disbelief in these cases, they're just comic books. :wink:
Not everything happen in real time...
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jun 2004 04:31 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

It's no longer believable for Reed or Ben to have served in World War II - they're far too young. Marvel have been disavowing those stories since at least the mid-1980s.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jun 2004 10:36 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Agent of Shield wrote: 
>>>
I noticed the MCP entry for Nick Fury and the other Howlers only have a few references to the old '60s Sgt. Fury comics. I figure that's becuase a) nobody's bothered to chrono that series, b) the MCP doesn't count the series as canon, or c) the MCP only counts the stories that are somehow referred to in the "modern" marvel setting. 
<<<


It's (a). 


watching: people in the news

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jun 2004 08:53 pm    
By Starman

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
It's no longer believable for Reed or Ben to have served in World War II - they're far too young. Marvel have been disavowing those stories since at least the mid-1980s. 
<<<


As many Marvel characters pretty much stay the same age since their creation, I don't really about if they're too young or too old for having participated in anything. They're only as old as the creators and the readers perceive them to be, and that's very subjective. Canon stories will always be canon, unless it's impossible for them to be canon because they very clearly and obviously contradicts other established canon material. Then you have to use some suspension of disbelief too, as if one is gonna compare everything in the comics with the real world hardly anything at all would be canon except for the non super powered or non magic knowledgable people.  

No offense I hope, I just think it's a shame to shunt things into non-canonicity because they happened a long time ago in our own world. I don't really care if Marvel has been disavowing stories or not, if it still possible to make them fit, so why not include them?  

If it then shows to be clearly and obviously impossible, then I'll except that. But before that my stubborn mind won't quit.  

I think it's pretty much a case by case thing. Man Without Fear Vs. Daredevil Yellow and so on.  

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
It's (a). 
<<<


Is it the same case with the Captain America comics of the 40s and the 50s?
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jun 2004 09:57 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Starman wrote: 
>>>
Is it the same case with the Captain America comics of the 40s and the 50s? 
<<<


Apples and oranges, since Sgt. Fury was published in the silver age. Consult the FAQ for more information. 


watching: seinfeld

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jun 2004 10:17 pm    
By Starman

Okay, maybe I should rephrase my question, or maybe this is a whole new one, well I'll let you decide. 

Do we know which 1940's and 1950's stories did happen, and which didn't because they conflict with stories which have appeared in the current Marvel continuity?
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 11:18 am    
By Marvologist

I am also very interested in that question, Starman. I'm trying to figure out what to buy and what not to buy to have all canon issues of Marvel comics.
_________________
I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 05:40 pm    
By SeanCurtin

I'm not actually aware of any pre-Marvel comics that expressly didn't happen, though there are plenty that happened differently than they were depicted as happening (the Greek gods didn't really appear in Red Raven Comics #1, that wasn't the real Captain America in those post-WWII titles, the Human Torch didn't really fly to Jupiter under his own power, et cetera). 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 11:38 pm    
By Starman

Are some of those stories in the need of chronology analysis?
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2004 12:01 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Starman wrote: 
>>>
Are some of those stories in the need of chronology analysis? 
<<<


Yes. I have no Golden Age books. 


watching: conan

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Posted: 15 Jun 2004 01:41 pm    Post subject: What's coming from Marvel in September...
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Millarworld have got the advance solicitations. Unofficial - but they've been right the last few months. 

The big push is for the fifth anniversary of Marvel Knights. Here's the new stuff... 

Marvel Knights 

STRANGE #1. 
It's that J Michael Straczynski Dr Strange series that they've been mentioning in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN for months. Although it's actually co-written by one of his proteges. Seems to be listed as an ongoing title. 

BLACK WIDOW #1. 
Six-issue miniseries. (The third, by my count.) Expressly described as a Marvel Universe title, incidentally. 

HULK & THING: HARD KNOCKS #1 
Four-issue miniseries by Bruce Jones and Jae Lee. 

ELEKTRA: THE HAND #1 and #2 
Five-issue miniseries by Akira Yoshida and Christian Gossett. "Will change the Marvel Universe forever", apparently. Mind you, they say that when Speedball goes to the shops. 

BULLSEYE: GREATEST HITS #1 
Five-issue mini about the origin of Bullseye. Really. 

MARVEL KNIGHTS 2099 
No, seriously. Five one-shots, apparently revisiting the 2099 timeline. ("These five one-shots are set in a familiar time for longtime Marvel fans.") One each for Daredevil, Black Panther, Inhumans, Punisher and "Mutant." All written by Robert Kirkman. Looks to me like an attempt to revive the imprint, if they sell acceptably. 

MADROX #1 
Five-issue miniseries. It's also got Wolfsbane and Strong Guy in it, so it's kind of an X-Factor reunion. 

X-books 

JUBILEE #1 
NIGHTCRAWLER #1 
GAMBIT #1 
Three new ongoing titles. Yes, they're really doing an ongoing Jubilee title. Coming next month: a solo title for the bloke third from the left in a crowd scene from X-Factor #17. 

Marvel Age 

We already know that these books aren't canon, but for completeness, there's two new titles: MARVEL AGE SPIDER-MAN TEAM-UP #1 and MARVEL AGE HULK #1. 

Avengers Disassembled 

Crossing over this month into AVENGERS, CAPTAIN AMERICA & THE FALCON, CAPTAIN AMERICA, FANTASTIC FOUR, IRON MAN, SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN and THOR. 

Marvel heroes 

WARLOCK #1 
First I've heard of this one. It's a new ongoing Adam Warlock title. The solicitation copy suggests that this is off in an alternate future. ("In a world on the brink, humankind's time is running out... Prepare yourself for the brave new world of Warlock!") No doubt the promotional interviews will make things clearer.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jun 2004 06:15 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Oooh, I see how it is...getting the jump on me, eh? :smile:

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
HULK & THING: HARD KNOCKS #1 
Four-issue miniseries by Bruce Jones and Jae Lee. 
<<<


It's my understanding that this miniseries actually REPLACES the ongoing Hulk title for 6 months, (I heard it was a 6 issue miniseries...I'm hoping it's only 4 issues, as shown here).
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jun 2004 07:45 pm    
By Starman

:question: Essential Super-Villain Team-Up I read about in that link sounds fun, but do anyone know why issue #15 is excluded? 
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jun 2004 08:32 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Oh, maaaannn. Are they trying to wear out my wallet? There hasn't been this kind of title expansion at Marvel in a decade.  

I'm willing to hear from volunteers who'd like to summarize these new titles. I may end up getting the mutant titles but probably not the others (Strange, Widow, Hulk/Thing, Elektra, Warlock).
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jun 2004 08:41 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

What? The Pulse #5 doesn't ship till September? Is it possible that the great Mark Bagely has finally fallen behind? (the only artist to pump out more artwork is John Romita Jr.) 

Well, looks like we're going to have to wait a while for the conclusion of this storyline...Does this mean Issue 4 isn't coming out this week?
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jun 2004 08:43 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I'm willing to hear from volunteers who'd like to summarize these new titles. I may end up getting the mutant titles but probably not the others (Strange, Widow, Hulk/Thing, Elektra, Warlock). 
<<<


I'll be getting the Hulk/Thing miniseries. 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jun 2004 09:31 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I figured you might. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 12:23 am    
By John Simons

Starman wrote: 
>>>
Essential Super-Villain Team-Up I read about in that link sounds fun, but do anyone know why issue #15 is excluded?  
<<<


It's a reprint of some Astonishing Tales issues-- which look to already be included in the book.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 03:48 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
What? The Pulse #5 doesn't ship till September? Is it possible that the great Mark Bagely has finally fallen behind? 
<<<


PULSE switched to a bimonthly schedule after issue #2. USM is already doing 18 issues a year, and even Mark Bagley can't draw 30 complete books a year. 24, apparently, is considered to be within his grasp.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2004 06:18 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Ah, thanks for the clarification. So I guess it'll be a little while yet before Issue #4 comes out. I'll also note that the synopsis for Pulse #5 from the link Paul provided references this Pulse storyline as tying into the 1st issue of the Marvel Knights Spiderman title...which will make placement for all of this even harder, as we have to deal with Jessica's pregnancy, the tie into Daredevil, and making the MK Spiderman fit in with Amazing and Spec....
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2004 09:26 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Ack! Um, maybe there's a gap before PULSE 5? Or maybe the MK Spidey title will pick up on something in PULSE? I guess we wait and see.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 03:25 am    Post subject: Green Goblin
By dimadick

It already did actually. Pulse #2- 3 (May - July, 2004) feature an increasingly unstable Green Goblin/ Norman Osborn. Marvel Knights : Spider-Man #1 (June, 2004) features the Goblin defeated by Spidey and taken into police custody. Marvel Knights: Spider-Man #2 (July, 2004) features Norman pulling strings from his new prison cell in Riker's Island. Order of appearances seems clear enough.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 07:07 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
It already did actually. Pulse #2- 3 (May - July, 2004) feature an increasingly unstable Green Goblin/ Norman Osborn. Marvel Knights : Spider-Man #1 (June, 2004) features the Goblin defeated by Spidey and taken into police custody. Marvel Knights: Spider-Man #2 (July, 2004) features Norman pulling strings from his new prison cell in Riker's Island. Order of appearances seems clear enough. 


Ah, so we're just talking about the matter of Gobby's appearances in PULSE occurring before MK Spider-Man #1. That shouldn't be a problem. However, I wonder if PULSE #5 is going to pick up the story from MK Spider-Man -- in other words, an intertwining of story arcs between titles rather than one arc occurring before the other.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Posted: 17 Jun 2004 01:25 pm    Post subject: Doc Savage Chronology?
By Enda80

I know this would be not something for the present, but in Spider-Man Index#6, Olshevksy noted that Doc's GS Spider-Man#3 appearance took place between Doc Savage Magazine#8 and Doc Savage (comic)#7. 
He noted that internal dates or publication dates for those Doc Savage novels adapted from original pulp novels. 

Doc Savage also appeared with the Thing in MTIO, and had a cameo in Marvels#1 in a movie theater. He is drawn in that latter issue the way he appeared on the covers of the pulps, with a normal haircut, instead of the more severe haircut from the James Bama paperback covers.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 03:13 am    Post subject: Clarc "Doc" Savage, Jr
By dimadick

The following chronology of Doc incorporates various pulp novels and the comic book series by Marvel Comics. According to it the series takes place between April, 1933 - June, 1941. See: http://www.pjfarmer.com/woldnewton/Savage.htm

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 08:25 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Take anything on that site with a grain of salt. The wold-newtonites would also have us believe that Doc Savage was secretly one of the expeditioners in Who Goes There?, and financed another expedition to capture King Kong. And they're serious. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 08:20 am    Post subject: Logan's Run
By Marvologist

I noticed Logan's Run is listed among titles that are not accepted canon in the FAQ section, but it is also listed in the Key. What's the status of this limited series?
_________________
I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 08:28 am    
By Ant-Man

Issue #6 of Logan's Run has a second story featuring Thanos that IS canonical, hence the inclusion in the Key

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 08:28 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

It's listed in the Key because there's a backup story featuring Thanos in issue 6 which is canon. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 08:59 am    
By Marvologist

Thanks! Now I know what to buy.
_________________
I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Posted: 10 Jun 2004 11:39 am    Post subject: Questions...
By Marvel Jedi

Is Punisher Max canon? 
when does nick fury loose his eye? 
Is electra/ woverine canon?
_________________
-snoogans!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2004 12:53 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Marvel Jedi wrote: 
>>>
when does nick fury loose his eye? 
<<<


This is probably not the best place to ask about plot elements. You might find someone who knows the answers to questions such as "When did Scott marry Jean?" or "When did Peter Parker graduate from high school?" or "How did the Avengers defeat Ultron in Avengers #68?", but if so, you should consider yourself lucky, because it's not really what we're here for. Generally, for plot elements, you'll find the denizens of the newsgroup rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe, or the guys at Alvaro's comicboards, are excellent at this kind of thing. 


watching: court tv

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 07:32 pm    
By Starman

I can't answer about if Punisher MAX or Electra/Wolverine is canon, as I haven't read them, but Nick Fury lost his eye somewhere in the end of WW2 if my memory serves me right. 

But the Administrator is right, it might be better to ask about plot elements and find someone who knows the answers to these kinds of questions at the newsgroup rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe, or at Alvaro's comicboards. Thou I guess you can try your luck in the Chat section of this board too. You never know. 
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jun 2004 12:32 am    
By SeanCurtin

Marvel Jedi wrote: 
>>>
Is Punisher Max canon? 
when does nick fury loose his eye? 
Is electra/ woverine canon? 
<<<


Maybe, but probably not - it's too early to tell for sure, but a lot of Microchip's history in current issues contradict what we already know about the character; 
a piece of grenade shrapnel was lodged in it while he was on a mission (see Sgt. Fury #27); 
and no, although I could see a case for shoehorning it in somewhere between Daredevil #325 and Wolverine #98ish. 

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2004 02:20 pm    Post subject: Punisher Max
By Marvel Jedi

Micro's return is mentioned in the Mk encyclopedia. When Micro Died in PWJ it was probably a Life Model Decoy.
_________________
-snoogans!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2004 05:11 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

What's your point? 


watching: lou dobbs

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2004 07:18 pm    
By Marvel Jedi

Marvel sez it's canon so it is! Marvel knows best!!!!
_________________
-snoogans!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2004 07:32 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Well, his point is presumably that if the officially sanctioned Marvel Knights Encyclopaedia takes the view that the PUNISHER Max book is canon, and acknowledges Microchip as somehow returning from the dead, that's a pretty strong indication that it's canon after all - notwithstanding speculation to the contrary.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2004 08:45 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Marvel Jedi wrote: 
>>>
Marvel sez it's canon so it is! Marvel knows best!!!! 
<<<


Why wouldn't you post this as a reply to this thread?: http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=343 

Starting a new topic makes it look like we've come in on the middle of a discussion... 


watching: hope and faith

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2004 09:08 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Well, let's just fix that right up. Look, I'm amalgamating! 

AH HA HA HA HA ... SUCH POWER! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 10:32 am    
By Marvologist

I don't understand why Marvel just doesn't make it clear to the fans when a series is or isn't canon. Sometimes Quesada or somebody will mention it, but then you have cases like this where the editors of the books don't say anything. They know we wonder about these things, that we like to know whether we should read something because it's in-continuity. Yet they leave everything up in the air even though they're the ones publishing the series. Maybe they want to deliberately be ambiguous. Who knows. 

But this raises an interesting question. If the MAX series isn't canon, where does that leave the MU Punisher? I wonder what he's doing in that big Marvel Universe when there's no series to let us see. Then again, maybe that reference in the Encyclopedia does settle the question. I'm not sure why it still leaves me feeling unsure as to what Marvel is saying about this new Punisher series.
_________________
I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 11:04 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Marvologist wrote: 
>>>
I don't understand why Marvel just doesn't make it clear to the fans when a series is or isn't canon. 
<<<


Because the moment a book is announced as non-canon, sales plummet. It's immediately perceived as a title that "doesn't matter", even if it had zero impact on the wider Marvel Universe anyway.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 11:25 am    
By Marvologist

I forgot about that. You're right. And as usual there are exceptions. Kevin J. Anderson made it clear that his new Starjammers series won't be part of continuity. Considering what you said, I'm surprised this got by.
_________________
I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 12:19 pm    
By Marvel Jedi

It's unfair to not let us know if somtihng is uncanon because I love P and he is the most moraly superior hero ever created and I would be sadend to know that he didn't really desemate Micro's dome. I Quesada or Ennis If you read this please tell us, please!
_________________
-snoogans!

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 04:30 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

It's actually not at all clear whether STARJAMMERS is in continuity or not. Anderson has said both that it's in the Marvel Universe and that it isn't in continuity with the other X-books - in the same interviews! He appears to use "in continuity with" to mean "interacts with" rather than "shares a universe with."
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2004 05:57 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Perhaps Garth Ennis heard all the complaints from obnoxious fanboys about Micro dying back in Punisher War Journal in the 90's, and said, "Well, fine, I'll kill the #$%^ off! So now he's dead again!"  


But really, I think the rational way to explain it is that Micro faked his death somehow. He did say repeatedly throughout the storyline about how he quit the game, cause he could no longer stand the Punisher's tactics. And besides, it doesn't matter, because Micro's dead. AGAIN. 

I'm still reeling from the fact that Punisher blew Micro's head off...Garth Ennis is the one writer I find myself in the biggest love/hate relationship with... 

The latest issue of Punisher MAX has Frank in Hell's Kitchen, and right there on the first page he's mentioning how they've been renovating and cleaning up Hell's Kitchen. Could we use this as a reference to the cleaning up that DD performed on the Kitchen in his own title, (over the course of that year where he declared himself the Kingpin)?
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2004 09:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Sure can, if we're swinging toward Punisher Max as canon. Looks like you're back on the hook for submitting a review, Kevin. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 07:38 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Well, okay then. Look for a review hopefully in the next few days.  

I really think we haven't seen enough to declare the series non canon. There's been some stuff that's raised the eyebrows, but I don't think it's enough to toss Punisher out the window. Now if Garth Ennis includes an appearance in Punisher by this non canon version of Nick Fury he came up with a while back, then we have a problem.... 

But I believe Ennis has said in interviews about Punisher MAX that he doesn't intend to include appearances by any superheroes. So don't look for Fury, and don't look for Daredevil in this current Hell's Kitchen arc...the most we can hope for is for Punisher or someone to make an offhand mention of them, and use that as a reference...which hasn't happened yet...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 08:21 pm    
By jimmyflowers

If Fury lost his eye in WWII, then he's either wearing a glass eye in Wolverine Minus 1 or the artist messed up.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Jun 2004 04:05 am    
By SeanCurtin

Or the writer messed up. Or all of the above. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Jun 2004 04:43 am    
By Peter Fabricius

The Deluxe Edition of the Official Handbook states that Fury got his left eye damaged by a bone chip during WWII, and over the years lost 95% of his vision in the eye.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Jun 2004 12:22 pm    
By Marvel Jedi

They talk about Max P in Secret War 1. 
They tell a perp about the punisher getting arrested during an interogation.
_________________
-snoogans!

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Jun 2004 12:28 pm    
By Marvel Jedi

Quote: 
>>>
But I believe Ennis has said in interviews about Punisher MAX that he doesn't intend to include appearances by any superheroes. So don't look for Fury, and don't look for Daredevil in this current Hell's Kitchen arc...the most we can hope for is for Punisher or someone to make an offhand mention of them, and use that as a reference...which hasn't happened yet... 
<<<


He says he will use nick but not the "FURY" nick but his nick would still be a harsh badass like in "FURY" just not crazy, he says Nick is not a Super Hero. But anyway in the end Punisher is essentially a spidey spin-off.
_________________
-snoogans!

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jun 2004 01:02 am    
By John Simons

I believe the jury is still out on whether the FURY one-shot is canon, but if it is, it presents another version of Fury losing his eye. While struggling with his traitor brother Jake, a gun goes off right near his face and he loses vision in that eye. 
I even buy the idea that Nick might make up a "grenade shrapnel" lie if he didn't want to admit that his own brother was actually responsible.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jun 2004 01:24 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Yeah, according to that one-shot, his eye WAS injured, but he eventually got his vision back -- only to have Jake shoot that same eye out. 

I think that was their way of patching older Fury appearances where he had two good eyes, but shouldn't have. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jun 2004 01:34 am    
By SeanCurtin

In that case, it would probably be quite helpful to consider the Fury one-shot canon. (I'd always assumed it was.) 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jun 2004 09:12 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

SeanCurtin wrote: 
In that case, it would probably be quite helpful to consider the Fury one-shot canon. (I'd always assumed it was.) 


It's always been treated as canon here. It's in the Key, and the flashback is listed in Fury's chronology. I don't have the book, so it hasn't been analyzed, per se. The FAQ is ambiguous. It should read volume two in the non-canon list. 


watching: e! true hollywood story

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jun 2004 09:30 am    
By Marvologist

Is the Fury of S.H.I.E.L.D. 4 issue series from 1995 canon as well?
_________________
I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Posted: 20 Jun 2004 03:22 pm    Post subject: X-Titles Pre-X-Men 1 History (Rough) Reading Order
By jimmyflowers

Hi, 

I've been reading the early exploits of X-related characters, and I put together a chronology or reading order (if you will). I'd like everyone to help me refine it and tell me what's missing (a lot I'm sure). 

LIST REVISED 6/22/2004 
Rise of Apocalypse 1 
Rise of Apocalypse 2 
Rise of Apocalypse 3 
Rise of Apocalypse 4 
Black Knight: Exodus 
Hellfire Club 1-FB 
Hellfire Club 2-FB 
The Further Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix 1 
The Further Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix 2 
The Further Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix 3 
The Further Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix 4 
Origin 1 
Origin 2 
Origin 3 
Origin 4 
Origin 5 
Origin 6 
Uncanny X-Men 241-FB 
Wildcats/X-Men: Golden Age 
Professor X & The X-Men 012-FB (Pages 2-11) 
X-Men Classic 16 Story 2 
Professor X & The X-Men 012-FB (Pages 12-19) 
Uncanny Origins 2 (Pages 2-8, panel 2) 
Uncanny Origins 6 (Pages 2-9) 
Uncanny Origins 9 (Page 2) 
Uncanny Origins 9 (Pages 3-10) 
Uncanny X-Men 161-FB (Pages 5-20, panel 6) 
X-Men Classic 19 Story 2 
Logan: Path of the Warlord 
Untold Tales of Spider-Man Minus 1 
Wolverine Minus 1 
Before the Four: Ben Grimm & Logan 1 
Before the Four: Ben Grimm & Logan 2 
Before the Four: Ben Grimm & Logan 3 
Generation X Minus 1 
Logan: Shadow Society 
Uncanny Origins 1 (Pages 2-9) 
X-Factor vol. 1 Minus 1 (Pages 4+) 
X-Men Classic 15 Story 2 
Uncanny Origins 6 (Pages 10-11) 
Uncanny X-Men Minus 1 
X-Men Classic 41 Story 2 
Uncanny Origins 1 (Pages 10+) 
Uncanny Origins 3 
Uncanny Origins 6 (Pages 12-17) 
Uncanny Origins 8 (Pages 2-8) 
Uncanny Origins 2 (Page 8, panel 3+) 
X-Men vol. 2 Minus 1 

AFTER UNCANNY X-MEN 1 BUT BEFORE GIANT-SIZE X-MEN 1 

Weapon X (aka Marvel Comics Presents stories in issues 73 thru 86) 
Alpha Flight vol. 1 Minus 1 
Cable Minus 1 
Wolverine & Cable: Guts & Glory 
Alpha Flight Special 1992 
Excalibur vol. 1 Minus 1 
Uncanny Origins 8 (Pages 9+) 
Uncanny Origins 9 (Pages 11-18) 
Uncanny Origins 9 (19+) 

I'd love to include the Emma Frost series, but I haven't read it. Any ideas where to place it? The only appearance by Emma in the above list is in Generation X Minus 1 (she's 16 at that time). 

Any additions, corrections, etc. would be terrific! 

Thanks! 
Jimmy

Last edited by jimmyflowers on 22 Jun 2004 09:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jun 2004 05:10 pm    
By Dhall

I'm not sure that Wildcats/X-Men is cannon. Jeph could probably address that. 

There's much debate already on other threads about Emma. Basically people here have chosen to agree to disagree about this, until we see some more evidence. I'd rather not get into the issue again, until we do, so please read some of the olf threads for more info. 

Oh, and I posted my X-Men reading order list a while back. It should be on the board somewhere. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Posted: 20 Jun 2004 09:25 am    Post subject: Marvel Preview
By Marvologist

I noticed that Thor is featured in Marvel Preview #10, but it isn't listed in his chronology. Is this just a case of it not being reviewed? 

I also noticed many issues of this series featuring Star Lord, and if I remember correctly, there was also a regular comic book series starring this character. Since there have been so many appearances by him published by Marvel, what is Marvel's affiliation with this character? Where did he come from? Is it a creator-owned property? I ask because he's not in the character listing, so I'm curious to know why Marvel has published so many books with him. 

Same question for a feature called Paradox that also appeared in Marvel Preview. 

While we're at it, could somebody give me a listing of which stories from this series are in-continuity?
_________________
I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jun 2004 03:31 pm 
By Enda80

Thor's appearance takes place after Thor Annual#5 (the battle with Olympus).

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jun 2004 11:41 pm    
By DCW3

See this page at the Unofficial Handbook of the Marvel Universe for a great discussion of Star-Lord and his ambiguous relationship to the MU.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/starlor1.htm

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Posted: 21 Jun 2004 07:22 pm    Post subject: Nick Fury in fbs in Daredevil#322-323 fbs
By Enda80

I was reminded recently of Nick Fury's appearances in fbs in Daredevil#321-323......specifically how problematic they were! 

These were flashbacks to the 1960's or x-30 years before the modern era. They showed Nick Fury objecting to the creation of the About Face virus. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/aboutfacedd.htm 

"The story also discusses SHIELD being involved in the creation of About Face. They were named SHIELD at least once (DD322), and they did show a Helicarrier and Flying Car, as well as Nick Fury. However, SHIELD did not form until after the start of the modern era, with Tony Stark being involved with its creation AFTER he became Iron Man. However, since it wasn't [consistently?] named as SHIELD and since Fury was active in the 1960s, I think the events could still stand, if detailed as some earlier espionage group or just a division of the Department of Defense. 
Alternatively, if it has to be SHIELD, then, yes, the dates are topical, AND the time scale is wrong, as it could not have been more than 10-14 years before the story in DD319-325."

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jun 2004 10:06 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I think the reference to SHIELD is more important than the topical references to dates. The flashback is currently placed after Captain America #104. 


watching: married with children

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Posted: 22 Jun 2004 09:48 am    Post subject: Marvel Age Annual #4
By Marvologist

What was it in Marvel Age Annual #4 that is considered canon?
_________________
I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2004 10:23 am    
By Andy Holcombe

There are some preview stories that set up then-new Marvel series, including Wolverine, Speedball, Damage Control, and A Shadowline Saga.

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 08:44 am    Post subject: Nick Fury in Elektra: Assasin....
By Enda80

If anyone everyone to make a go at placing Fury's Elektra: Assassin appearances; 

We can actually nail down when some of the events of Elektra: Assassin took place thanks to George Olshevksy's Avengers Index#3. In that issue, he discusses Avengers I#61, and notes that some freak weather conditions, such as the abnormally premature snowstorms seen in Elektra: Assassin, were caused by the battle between Ymir and Surtur in Avengers I#61, as well as by the events of Incredible Hulk I#109-110 (in which a large machine that affected the Earth's rotation existed in the Savage Land). 
Thus, some of the events of Elektra: Assassin took place around the time of other stories with premature snowstorms, such as Amazing Spider-Man I#85, Incredible Hulk I#115, and Daredevil I#52-53. These premature snowstorms came ever now and then during a period of two or three months following the events of Avengers I#61. 
Further, Avengers I#61 took place towards the end of the third week of September of Peter Parker's sophomore year in college.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 09:36 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

You're right, Enda80. The Index you cite does suggest that Elektra:Assassin occurs within the two or three months following A 61. Are there temporal references in Elektra: Assassin that can help us nail down a more precise placement? Fury is pretty darn busy throughout that September and October, but I see a break that might accommodate Elektra: Assassin at the end of October and in early November, between Fury's appearances in CA 132 and FF:WGCM 6. Then there's a gap in his appearances between FF:WGCM 12 (BTS) in November and IM 33 in December.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2004 12:51 pm    
By DCW3

Quote: 
>>>
Fury is pretty darn busy throughout that September and October, but I see a break that might accommodate Elektra: Assassin at the end of October and in early November, between Fury's appearances in CA 132 and FF:WGCM 6.  
<<<


The second half of E:A 7 and most of E:A 8 take place on Election Day, the date of which is given in E:A 6 as November 5. As best I can tell, Fury's appearances in E:A 4 through 7 take place over the course of three days, ending the day before the election. So if you accept the Nov. 5 date as correct, that means that Fury's appearances would take place on November 2-4.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2004 09:12 pm  
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Those dates would fit nicely. Would you mind posting a day-by-day breakdown of issue, page, and panel rages?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 12:41 am    
By DCW3

I can probably do that tomorrow or Saturday. But how much do you need? Just Fury's appearances (issues 4-7 or parts thereof) or the whole miniseries? I can do the whole series if you need it, but the timeline for issues 1-3 would be rather complicated.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 06:59 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I'd appreciate anything you can provide. I'm not sure what makes 1-3 complicated, but I'm primarily interested in the contemporary early November scenes; if there's a complex series of flashbacks to previous times, etc., don't sweat it if you don't have time. Thanks, DCW3.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 02:14 pm    
By DCW3

Issue 1 does have a number of flashbacks to Elektra's youth, and issues 1-3 are extremely jumbled chronologically and lack the nice, neat temporal references found in issues 4-8. It won't be a problem for me to do them; it'll just probably take a few more days and (because of all the jumping around in the timeline) will necessarily be a little untidy.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 08:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

We've dealt with messy chronologies before, so if you're game, go for it. I look forward to seeing your post.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Jun 2004 09:08 am    Post subject: Nick Fury in Elektra
By captamr

Im confused! Although I would have no problem with Furys placement in Elektra: Assassin sometime after A 61, theres already a listing for Fury sometime after the events of A 118. 

By the way Fury as an intricate part of the series, probably deserves at least a BTS in E:A 3. 

Im not a fan of the series, but I concur with the need for listings of John Garrett and Chastity McBride as they were primary throughout most of the issues.
_________________
Charlie

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jun 2004 01:43 pm    
By DCW3

As it turns out, there are enough temporal references in the series for me to make some reasonable assumptions about calendar dates for most of the scenes in the series. I put these dates in bold; even if you don't accept them, they at least make this breakdown easier to read. To derive these dates, I had to work backwards from an Election Day date of Nov. 5, given in E:A 6, so some of my reasoning may not be clear until you read the entire calendar. 

Unlike the calendar dates, the unqualified references to passage of time are taken directly from the text. In a few instances, I had to make an educated guess about how much time passes between scenes, but it should be clear which ones those are. 

Since this is not a full analysis, I only included a minimum of plot summary. For more plot details and background, the Unofficial Appendix has profiles up on Arthur Perry, John Garrett, the Dwarves, Ken Wind, and Chastity McBryde. If you need anything else, just let me know. 

E:A 1, pg. 1-2, 3p3-4p4 (all fb): Elektra's birth and the death of her mother. The date is given as August 13. (Note: The flashback in DD 168 establishes that the death of Elektra's father while she is in college occurs on her birthday.) 

E:A 1, pg. 5p4-6p3 (fb): Elektra is five years old. Her father kisses her goodnight. 

E:A 1, pg. 6p4-p7 (fb): Unplaceable scenes of Elektra (between ages 5-12) with her father. In panel 7 she attempts suicide. 

E:A 1, pg. 8p2-p3 (fb): Elektra, age 12, training with her sensei. 

E:A 1, pg. 10-11 (fb): Elektra trains with the Chaste. Between pages 4-5 of DD 190. 

E:A 1, pg.13 (fb): Elektra leaves the Chaste's mountain. Between pages 6-7 of DD 190. 

E:A 1, pg. 18 (fb): Elektra, age 20, joins the Hand. Continued from page 12 of DD 190; the opening dialogue of this scene is taken verbatim from that issue. 

E:A 1, pg. 19-20 (fb): An unknown time later--I would guess probably at least a few months. Elektra, as part of the Hand, first encounters the Beast. 

E:A 6, pg. 10p5-p6 (fb): Three years before the main story. Garrett gets too fresh with Chastity in Libya. 

May ?. E:A 1, pg. 22 (fb): The beginning of the main storyline. Elektra, age 24, is hired to kill Carlos Huevos. 

May 23. E:A 1, pg. 23 (fb): An unknown time later. Elektra kills Huevos. 

May 26. E:A 1, pg. 24p1, 24p3-p4, 24p8, 25p2-p6, 26p2-27, 28p2-p4, 29p2-p3 (all fb): Three days later. Huevos's funeral. That night, Elektra fights the Beast in the American Embassy. 

Sep. 25. E:A 1, pg. 3p1-p2, 4p5-5p3, 6p8-8p2, 8p5, 12, 14p1, 14p6: About four months later (see below). Elektra is in an insane asylum. 

Sep. 26. E:A 1, pg. 15-17, 21, 24p2, 24p5-p7, 25p1, 26p1, 28p1, 29p1, 29p4-32: Probably the next day. Elektra escapes the asylum. A newspaper article in E:A 2 about the escape says that Elektra was found amnesiac (probably the day after her battle with the Beast) four months ago. I'm taking this reference literally and guessing that the article was from the next day's paper. 

E:A 2, pg. 1-8p9: I'm not even going to try to break this down. It's a surreal, stream-of-consciousness narration of Elektra's journey throught the jungle. At one point, she says that "weeks" pass. 

Oct. 19. E:A 2, pg. 9p1, 9p3, 9p5-11p1 (all fb): Five days before Elektra watches the videorecording of Garrett's thoughts and experiences (see below). Probably overlaps with the end of the sequence above. Garrett and Perry begin their investigation. 

Oct. 20 or 21. E:A 2, pg. 12p2-13p5 (fb): Probably either the next day or the day after that. Garrett and Perry interrogate Julio Gonzales. 

Oct. 22. E:A 2, pg. 15p2, 15p4-17, 18p2, 18p4, 19p5-22, 25-26, 27p2, 27p5-30 (all fb): Two days before Elektra watches the videorecording. Garrett and Perry travel to Bolivia and back to San Concepcion, where they are ambushed by Elektra. 

A newspaper report in E:A 3, from the day after the explosion on E:A 2 pg. 30, says that Huevos's assassination occured five months before. I took this reference literally and used it to derive the earlier dates. 

Oct. 24. E:A 2, pg. 31, 8p10, 9p2, 9p4, 11p2-12p2, 13p6-14, 15p3, 18p1, 18p3, 19p1-p4, 23-24, 27p1, 27p3-p4, 32; E:A 3, pg. 9-10p3 (fb): Two days later. Elektra visits Garrett in the hospital. She then views a videorecording of the above sequences before being captured by SHIELD. 

Oct. 25. E:A 3, pg. 1-6: An indefinite time later, but most likely the next day: In a later issue, Beaker says that Garrett's transformation allowed him to return to duty within "the space of hours," while reports the next day treat Elektra's capture like a very recent event. Garrett is rebuilt as a cyborg. 

Oct. 26. E:A 3, pg. 7p1, 10p7-13: The next day. Garrett gives his report on the operation. 

Oct. 27. E:A 3, pg. 14-19p1, 19p3-p5 (fb), 20-21: The next day. Elektra escapes with Garrett's help. (Fury, BTS, rejects Beaker's request for "extreme sanction.") 

Oct. 28. E:A 3, pg. 22-23 (fb): The next day. Ken Wind arrives in San Concepcion. 

Oct. 29. E:A 3, pg. 24-27 (fb): The next day. Elektra kills Ambassador Reich. (A newspaper article in E:A 4 says this happened on a Tuesday; if Election Day, Nov. 5, is also a Tuesday, as it would be in real life, then this would put Reich's assassination the week before on Oct. 29.) 

Oct. 31 or Nov. 1. E:A 3, pg. 28-30: Garrett gets a transfer to America; he and Elektra prepare to leave San Concepcion. In Garrett's report to Beaker, the narration of which overlays the previous sequence, he says that Beaker has "waited long enough for" his report, and refers to the day of Reich's assassination as "the next day" after Wind's arrival, rather than "yesterday." This, to me, indicates that it's been at least two days since the assassination. This sequence probably occurs either the day Garrett files the report or the next day. (Pretty flimsy, I know, but there're no clear temporal references here, and things seem to fit best this way.) 

Nov. 2. E:A 4; E:A 5: Garrett meets with Fury in the Helicarrier, which is where Fury remains through all of his appearances in the series. The rest of the two issues is devoted to a long chase scene involving Garrett and Elektra that Fury monitors. 

Nov. 3. E:A 6, pg. 1-10p4, 10p7-18: The next day. Garrett and Elektra wait in a hotel; Fury continues his investigation. (On pg. 6, Election Day is said to be Nov. 5. All the other dates in this calendar are derived from that date.) 

E:A 6, pg. 19: Fury gives Beaker six hours to complete Perry's reconstruction. Later, Beaker references this deadline as "0600 hours," meaning that this scene occurs right at midnight between Nov. 3 and 4. 

Nov. 4. E:A 6, pg. 20-30; E:A 7, pg. 1, 2p5-3p2 (fb), 2p1-p4, 3p3-22, 23p2-p3(fb), 23p1, 23p4-24p4: The next day. Garrett and Elektra continue their plot; Perry escapes the Helicarrier. (On E:A 7 pg. 9 and 13, Chastity says the election is "tomorrow.") With regard to Fury's appearances--his last on-panel appearance is on E:A 7 pg. 8, probably around 7 AM (a brief time after Perry's escape, which occurs at 6 AM). On pg. 9, the President has a phone conversation with Fury (off-panel) that occurs after Chastity's report at 6 PM. 

It's not totally clear where the break between Nov. 4 and 5 is, but pg. 24p5 is the first panel that definitely occurs on Election Day. 

Nov. 5. E:A 7, pg. 24p5-30; E:A 8, pg. 5p6-6p5 (fb), 7p2 (fb), 7p4-12 (fb), 14p1-p5 (fb), 15-17p4 (fb), 18 (fb), 19p4-20 (fb), 21p2-p3 (fb), 21p6-23p1 (fb), 23p3 (fb), 24-26 (fb), 27p3-31p4 (fb): Election Day. Elektra and Garrett defeat Wind. 

The rest of E:A 8 consists of a framing sequence set four months later; however, I understand that later DD issues say that this framing sequence was just a hallucination of Garrett's and never really happened.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jun 2004 08:28 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Many thanks for your hard work, DCW3. Now I can see how the flow of this story is rather choppy. Good job in untangling it all.  We should get Nick Fury's listing changed to reflect this placement, between CA 132 and FF:WGCM 6.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2004 09:12 am    Post subject: Elections
By dimadick

"(A newspaper article in E:A 4 says this happened on a Tuesday; if Election Day, Nov. 5, is also a Tuesday, as it would be in real life, then this would put Reich's assassination the week before on Oct. 29.)" 

But in real life there would only be four occassions through the entire 20th century where U. S Presidential election date would fall on a Tuesday, November 5.: 

1) 1912 - Thomas Woodraw Wilson achieved election over Theodore Roosevelt and William Howard Taft. 

2) 1940 - Franklin Delano Roosevelt achieved election over Wendell Lewis Wilkie and Norman Thomas. 

3) 1968 - Richard Milhouse Nixon achieved election over Hubert Horatio Humphrey and George Corley Wallace. Popular candidate Robert Francis Kennedy had been assassinated on the night of June 5/6. 

4) 1996 - William Jefferson Clinton achieved election over Robert Joseph Dole and Henry Ross Perrot. 

Were the events of E:A intended to coincide with any of the four historical events or was the date likely to be chosen at random?

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2004 11:01 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Given that the story saw print in the 1980s, and Elektra's age as depicted in comics at the time, I can't see how it would be intended to refer to any of those elections. Elektra's the wrong age.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2004 12:00 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Dimadick... 

Again, with the needlessly complete full names! Why? 

Are you trying to distinguish from all the OTHER Nixon and Clintons that have been president? 

You can just write "Clinton beat Dole", you know. We'll know what you're referring to. 

(IN some cases, putting these folks' full names made it LESS clear who you're referring to. I stared at "Robert Joseph Dole" for quite a while before I went "oh, Bob Dole!") 

You're not writing a thesis here. Please try to relax, with this constant need for 100% completion. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2004 12:06 pm    
By DCW3

Quote: 
>>>
Were the events of E:A intended to coincide with any of the four historical events or was the date likely to be chosen at random? 
<<<


Given that Ken Wind is elected President in this series, it wasn't meant to refer to a real election. Since so many other things are different in the MU from the real world (they seem to pick a new President practically every year, for one), this Election Day certainly could be on a day other than Tuesday. I just decided that this one was on a Tuesday, because it makes some of the other dates in the series easier to figure out and fits pretty comfortably with other references to the passage of time. I'm not sure how Paul Bourcier reconciles days of the week and calendar dates on his calendar, but that calendar is the only thing that is going to be affected by these dates, so I'll let him make the decision. 

Oh, before I forget: Elektra's parents' names are given in E:A 2 as Hugo and Christina Natchios. They probably ought to have listings: 

*NATCHIOS, CHRISTINA 
**E:A 1-FB 

*NATCHIOS, HUGO 
**E:A 1-FB 
**{DD 168-FB} 

I think that Hugo, at least, may have made some other FB appearances.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2004 06:26 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

dimadick wrote: 
>>>
Were the events of E:A intended to coincide with any of the four historical events or was the date likely to be chosen at random? 
<<<


I always thought that the incumbent President (defeated by Ken Wind/Garrett in the fantasy universe) looked like LBJ.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2004 10:16 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I'm not sure how Paul Bourcier reconciles days of the week and calendar dates on his calendar, but that calendar is the only thing that is going to be affected by these dates, so I'll let him make the decision. 
<<<


I'm apt to put election day on the Tuesday after the first Monday in November and let the calendar year determine the date. Working backward from the present, it's too early to tell if November 5 will actually work out as the election day seen in E:A.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Posted: 20 Jun 2004 06:41 pm    Post subject: Reading Orders, Calendars, etc.
By jimmyflowers

Hi, 

Being more of a team and universe-oriented guy, the individual chronologies in the MCP are interesting to me, but not very useful when it comes to trying to read the Marvel comics in my collection in chronological order. 

I've seen mentions of "calendars" etc. on these boards, but I can't seem to find them. Are they posted anywhere? 

I've tried searching the new board for the word calendar, and have only seen a few postings that concern calendars, mostly just recent x-tite history. 

Any idea where I could find the rest? 

Thanks!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jun 2004 08:48 pm 
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

The calendar is still very much in its prototypical form. The first twelve years of the MU after FF 1 are represented by a rough chronological listing of story entries with notes that I've been compiling for more than 10 years. After that, things are even rougher. And it's based on comics I have and on Marvel Indexes, so it's not entirely comprehensive. These documents have a long way to go before I feel comfortable sharing them. If you're interested in reading the Avengers' adventures in chronological order, a select portion of the calendar (without exact dates or page/panel ranges, and not recently updated) can by found in the Year-By-Year section of the Avengers Assemble web site: 

http://www.avengersassemble.us/bourcier/bourciertoc.html 

On the other hand, if you're looking for a fleshed-out chronology of all MU stories from just before Maximum Security to the near present, I'm preparing to post that part of the calendar on the MCP site soon. (The recent X-calendar you mentioned was done in partial preparation of this upcoming MU calendar.)
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jun 2004 08:54 pm    
By jimmyflowers

Paul, 

Nice work on the Avengers chronology. Yes, very helpful. Thank you. 

I look forward to your MU calendar as well. 

I would be at a loss to explain the joys of chronologies, but I sure am taken with them! 

Jimmy

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jun 2004 02:18 pm    
By jimmyppi

Take a look at the Marvel Chronology Graph: 

http://medlem.spray.se/marvels/chronology.htm

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Posted: 23 Jun 2004 06:47 pm    Post subject: Tangeled Web
By Marvel Jedi

Is it canon I know it is impossible to chronolize but does it directly mess with anything?
_________________
-snoogans!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jun 2004 07:54 pm
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

It's canonical, and not impossible to chronologize. You'll see the series in the calendar.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Posted: 25 Jun 2004 08:57 am    Post subject: Baron Zemo notes; WI 5 intro, Av#4
By Enda80

In Avengers Index#1 and #3, Olshevsky listed the introduction to What If I#5 as an appearance of the Earth-616 Baron Zemo (under listings for issues#4, #6, and #56). 

Also, in Avengers I#4, Baron Zemo does appear in the death of Bucky flashback in shadow-his hand is plainly visible and he does speak, so that actually counts as his first published appearance, not Avengers I#6. 

ZEMO/BARON HEINRICH ZEMO 
CA:ME-FB 
SGT. FURY 8 
A 6-FB 
CA 168-FB 
CA:ME-FB 
CA:ME 
CA '98-FB 
TB -1-FB 
CA:SL2 12-FB 
A 56-FB 
CA:SL2 12-FB 
A 56-FB 
**{A 4-FB} 
A 56-FB 
**WI? 5 
SPIDER-MAN: FEAR ITSELF-FB 
TB -1 
UTSM 13-FB 
A 6 
MARVELS 2-BTS 
A 6

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Posted: 25 Jun 2004 09:04 am    Post subject: Ymir chronolgy; slight revisions
By Enda80

A few notes; Ymir's "appearance" in Thor#294 was just a one-panel flashback to events shown in Thor Annual#5/JIM#97/2 that added no new information, and in fact, even disputed that Ymir had ever actually existed! (In fact, the panel in Thor#294 was actually a direct swipe from Thor Annual#5.) 

Also, Ymir's appearance in SSOC 141 is a bit erroneous, since now that I check it, his battle with vampires was only mentioned, not graphically depicted, unless you count a few cave drawings. (If photographs do not count, then I guess we must exclude cave drawings.) By the way, this battle with vampires would have predated Ymir's encounter with Conan in SVT 1/1 by years. 

I'll have to take a look at Thor Annual#5. It does feature Ymir in a one-page flashback to his battle with Villi, Ve, and Odin-an event which has not, to my knowledge, been shown elsewhere. I am not sure which side of SVT 1/1 it should go, but it does happen before Odin's battle with Surtur shown in Thor I#349-fb according to dialogue in the latter issue. 


YMIR 
JIM 97/2 
SVT 1-BTS 
JIM 97/2 
JIM 98/2 
DRSTR 177 
DRSTR 178 
A 61 
M/SH3 5 
T 417/2-BTS 
T 418/2-BTS 
T 419/2-BTS 
T 420/2-BTS 
T 421/2 
T 422/2 
T 423/2 
T 424/2 
T 425 
T2 14-FB

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Posted: 25 Jun 2004 01:14 am    Post subject: Awesome Android additions
By lkseitz

Way back when (before the PHP bulletin board), I noted the Thinker's Awesome Android was absent. I see he's finally been added, but the minimal information I provided then is not included. The following come (way) before the currently listed appearances, but AFAIK there were no apperances between these two: 

ROM 14 
CA 311
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Jun 2004 10:21 am    
By lkseitz

Sorry to follow up my own post, but now that it's a reasonable hour, I found my original post at http://web.archive.org/web/20010124061000/http://www.chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/. Here's a slight amendment to my addition: 

ROM 14 
CA 311-FB 
CA 311
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Thread 30

Posted: 25 Jun 2004 08:41 pm    Post subject: Apollo in Doctor Strange II#46
By Enda80

APOLLO 
**DRSTR2 46-FB 
A 50 
T 301 
T@ 10 
A 256 
A 283 
A 284 
A 285 
NM 81-FB 

The flashback in Doctor Strange II#46 takes place about 2,000 years ago, so it safely predates A 50. 

Apollo looks a bit different in his Doctor Strange appearance, but hay, D II#46 came out in 1981, before The Official Handbook was published, so artists could not use it as a reference.

			*	*	*

Thread 31

Posted: 25 Jun 2004 09:07 pm    Post subject: Agatha Harkness question......
By Enda80

NO2 7; I have that issue. I did not see it mentioned anywhere as to if that was Agatha Hakrness in that issue. Was it revealed in NO 2 6?

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jun 2004 02:19 am    
By Peter Fabricius

No, it isn't stated anywhere in the crossover.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Thread 32

Posted: 26 Jun 2004 06:27 pm    Post subject: Seth Update; Saga of the Sub-Mariner
By Enda80

In the Saga of the Sub-Mariner series, Roy Thomas inserts Seth into various Namor stories that predate his first appearance, such as FF@1. 

SETH 
**SAGASM 8-FB 
{TTA 98} 
TTA 99/2 
TTA 101/2 
SUB-M 2 
SUB-M 3 
SUB-M 4 
SUB-M 5

			*	*	*

Thread 33

Posted: 26 Jun 2004 09:39 am    Post subject: Rules about Flashbacks
By lkseitz

(This post isn't MU specific, but there's not really a "meta" board for the MCP, so I'm putting it here. Russ, et al, should there be a "meta" board strictly for questions and discussion about the MCP rather than particular chronologies? Or do you already have one that's reserved for directors? If so, maybe you should create one for newbies, too.) 

As a former director, I should know this, but I've forgotten and couldn't find it listed on the site. What's the rule for flashbacks of the same event? I'm looking through my old issues of Godzilla and discovered an unlisted flashback for Dr. Demonicus. The flashback covers his origin and contains the same information as one which is already listed for him (AWC 72). However, the one in GZILL 5 is slightly more complete than the one in AWC 72. Does it pre-empt that flashback (because the latter one adds no information), or do we list them both as "GZILL 5 ~ AWC 72." 

I seem to recall that flashbacks to previous events that add no new information don't get listed. If that's the case, I presume more complete flashbacks pre-empt less complete ones.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jun 2004 11:47 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

No, we discussed this a while back, and I'm pretty sure Russ's ruling was that the original flashback remains listed. Additional elements get listed around it, of course.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jun 2004 11:54 am
By ADMINISTRATOR

No, they don't pre-empt. They interweave, if necessary. And no, there's no "squiggle". 


watching: looney tunes in hollywood

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jun 2004 03:10 pm    
By lkseitz

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
No, we discussed this a while back, and I'm pretty sure Russ's ruling was that the original flashback remains listed. Additional elements get listed around it, of course. 
<<<


What do you mean by "original"? Do you mean the one first listed in the MCP or the one Marvel published first? In this case, the flashback listed (AWC 72) was published over a decade after the original telling of Dr. Demonicus' origin (GZILL 5) and is just a pared down version of the first one. The one in AWC 72 is like the hundreds of time you've seen a single panel flashback of Peter Parker getting bitten by the spider. It adds nothing to what's been revealed before. (Feel free to point me to the original discussion if you can and I'll go read it.) 

To add more fun, after posting I discovered a second flashback in GZILL 5 that took place after the first flashback. However, IIRC, for the average minor character (e.g. not Spider-Man ), we don't list something like: 

GZILL 5-FB 
GZILL 5-FB 

Dang, I've been away too long. My memory is shot.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jun 2004 03:14 pm    
By lkseitz

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
No, they don't pre-empt. They interweave, if necessary. And no, there's no "squiggle". 
<<<


Well, then, I'm confused. The two flashbacks show exactly the same scene (one less detailed than the other). You cannot say one happened before the other, which is what I thought the "squiggle" (~) was for.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jun 2004 08:45 pm
By ADMINISTRATOR

lkseitz wrote: 
>>>
What do you mean by "original"? Do you mean the one first listed in the MCP or the one Marvel published first? In this case, the flashback listed (AWC 72) was published over a decade after the original telling of Dr. Demonicus' origin (GZILL 5) and is just a pared down version of the first one. The one in AWC 72 is like the hundreds of time you've seen a single panel flashback of Peter Parker getting bitten by the spider. It adds nothing to what's been revealed before. 
<<<


Based on your description, it sounds like we should drop the flashback in AWC 72 and replace it with GZILL 5. 


lkseitz wrote: 
>>>
(Feel free to point me to the original discussion if you can and I'll go read it.) 
<<<


Use the posting board's search feature (at the top of the page) and search for "flashback". 

EDITED: okay, scratch that. WAY too many threads to be of use. Try the discussion here. 

watching: lizzie mcguire

Last edited by Administrator on 26 Jun 2004 09:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jun 2004 08:54 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

lkseitz wrote: 
>>>
Administrator wrote: 
>>>
No, they don't pre-empt. They interweave, if necessary. And no, there's no "squiggle". 
<<<

Well, then, I'm confused. The two flashbacks show exactly the same scene (one less detailed than the other). You cannot say one happened before the other, which is what I thought the "squiggle" (~) was for. 
<<<


Flashbacks and the squiggle are mutually exclusive. The squiggle is used to show the same scene, yes, but only in time travel stories, or stories that are published at the same time. 

Flashbacks are treated differently. Ask yourself one question. Does the flashback impart new information? If not, and it's simply repeating something that's already been shown, it's ignored. If so, it's treated chronologically like any other published event. Does it come before another story/flashback, after another story/flashback, or both before and after another story/flashback, or in between panels of another story/flashback? It's placed in a character's chronology the same as a non-flashback, as long as it imparts new information. 


watching: lizzie mcguire

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Posted: 28 Jun 2004 05:38 pm    Post subject: Spidey one shots:
By Marvel Jedi

Are Spiderman/kingpin (or is it daredevil) to the death and Sweet Chairity canon?
_________________
-snoogans!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jun 2004 08:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Sweet Charity is canonical and will be on the calendar.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jun 2004 03:24 am    
By Andy Holcombe

To the best of my knowledge, both Spider-Man/Kingpin: To the Death and Spider-Man: Sweet Charity are canonical.

			*	*	*

Thread 35

Posted: 26 Jun 2004 04:49 pm    Post subject: Cage is canon
By Marvel Jedi

Why don't you guys think so? It's clearly set around Alias cage not squeakey clean cliche Powerman. What do you guys dislike about it? 

plus is: The Hood, The Eternals canon?
_________________
-snoogans!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jun 2004 04:57 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Marvel Jedi wrote: 
>>>
Why don't you guys think so? It's clearly set around Alias cage not squeakey clean cliche Powerman. What do you guys dislike about it? 
<<<

Cage's personality is entirely inconsistent with his previous and subsequent appearances. 

Quote: 
>>>
plus is: The Hood, The Eternals canon? 
<<<

The Hood is canon. The Eternals is canon, though I assume you're asking about The Eternal, which almost certainly isn't canon as it contradicts previously established information about the origins of the Eternals and Deviants. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jun 2004 03:40 am    
By Andy Holcombe

Marvel Jedi wrote: 
>>>
Why don't you guys think so? It's clearly set around Alias cage not squeakey clean cliche Powerman. What do you guys dislike about it? 

plus is: The Hood, The Eternals canon? 
<<<


It's been a while since I looked at the book, but here's why I believe the recent Cage series (vol. 2?) is non-canon. 

The series features two local crime figures Hammerhead and Tombstone, neither of which is the familiar version. I have serious doubts that either one of them, much less both of them, would let some other thug trade on his name. The Cage versions of both Tombstone and Hammerhead where established crime-lords, so this wasn't a case of a young turk trying to scare his rivals by using an established name. And then, as Sean said, the title character wasn't consistent with any previous version of the character, at least not one that I'm familiar with. There may have been more to it than that, but I'm going from memory here, and I haven't looked at the series since it finished. The series read like Cage: The Movie or Ultimate Cage, and not a series set in the regular Marvel Universe. 

As far as the Hood and the Eternals, I echo Sean's statements. The Hood appears to be canon. I've never read the two volumes of the Eternals, but I've never seen any reason they shouldn't be canon. The recent series, The Eternal is definately non-canon, with little-to-no resemblance to prior stories involving the Eternals, the Deviants, and Celestial manipulation of humanity.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jun 2004 04:42 am    
By Dormammu

Chuck Austen, The Eternal's writer, said the book had nothing to do with Marvel Universe's canonical continuity. (Source: a Newsarama interview... one year ago, I think).

			*	*	*

Thread 36

Posted: 26 Jun 2004 11:15 pm    Post subject: Godzilla and company additions
By lkseitz

You work on one little project (a map of Godzilla's travel through the U.S.) and the next thing you know you're doing chronologies for all the characters missing from the MCP for that series. I tell you, it's disgusting.  

First, here are some additions to existing MCP entries: 

I believe {ST 143/2} is actually an appearance by Demonicus, who is a 
different being than Doctor Demonicus. 

DR. DEMONICUS 
GZILL 5-FB (Replaces AWC 72-FB, as discussed here) 
GZILL 4 
GZILL 5 
... 

Godzilla #2 is missing from Gabe's entry. 

JONES, GABE 
... 
H2 199 
GZILL 2 
GZILL 3 
... 

All entries for Red Ronin before Godzilla #17 are missing. (And the abbreviation for GZILL #17 is incorrect, as already noted in a bug report.) 

RED RONIN 
GZILL 6 
GZILL 7 
GZILL 8 
GZILL 9 
GZILL 10 
GZILL 11 
GZILL 12 
GZILL 13 
GZILL 14 
GZILL 15 
GZIL 17 
... 

Add a flashback to Yetrigar: 

YETRIGAR 
GZILL 10-FB 
GZILL 10 
GZILL 11 
... 


Now, here are the currently non-existant entries: 

BATRAGON (suggested URL: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/batragon.htm) 
GZILL 5-FB 
GZILL 4 

BEDDIT, WINSLOW 
GZILL 9 

BETA BEAST 
GZILL 12 

CENTIPOR 
GZILL 4 
GZILL 5 

FORD, BILL 
GZILL 15 
GZILL 16 

GHILARON (suggested URL: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/ghilaron.htm) 
GZILL 4 
GZILL 5 

GODZILLA (suggested URL: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/godzilla.htm) 
GZILL 1-FB 
GZILL 2-FB 
GZILL 1 
GZILL 2 
GZILL 3 
GZILL 4 
GZILL 5 
GZILL 6 
GZILL 7 
GZILL 8 
GZILL 9 
GZILL 10 
GZILL 11 
GZILL 12 
GZILL 13 
GZILL 14 
GZILL 15 
GZILL 16 
GZILL 17 
GZILL 18 
GZILL 19 
GZILL 20 
GZILL 21 
GZILL 22 
GZILL 23 
GZILL 24 

HASHIOKA, TAMARA 
GZILL 1 
GZILL 2 
GZILL 3 
GZILL 4 
GZILL 6 
GZILL 7 
GZILL 8 
GZILL 9 
GZILL 10 
GZILL 13 
GZILL 14 
GZILL 15 
GZILL 17 
GZILL 18 
GZILL 19 
GZILL 20 
GZILL 21 
GZILL 22 
GZILL 24 

HAWKINS, DR. GLADSTONE 
GZILL 17 
GZILL 18 
GZILL 19 
GZILL 20 
GZILL 21 
GZILL 22 

HAWKS, JOHN 
GZILL 15 
GZILL 16 
GZILL 17 

HOWARDS, HUGH 
GZILL 6 
GZILL 7 
GZILL 8 
GZILL 9 
GZILL 10 
GZILL 11 
GZILL 17 
GZILL 18 
GZILL 19-BTS 
GZILL 22 
GZILL 23 
GZILL 24 

KROLLAR (suggested URL: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/krollar.htm) 
GZILL 12 
GZILL 13 
GZILL 14 

LEPIRAX (suggested URL: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/lepirax.htm) 
GZILL 4 
GZILL 5 

RHIAHN (suggested URL: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/rhiahn.htm) 
GZILL 12 
GZILL 13 
GZILL 14 

TAKIGUCHI, ROBERT 
GZILL 1 
GZILL 2 
GZILL 3 
GZILL 4 
GZILL 6 
GZILL 7 
GZILL 8 
GZILL 9 
GZILL 10 
GZILL 11 
GZILL 12 
GZILL 13 
GZILL 14 
GZILL 15 
GZILL 17 
GZILL 18 
GZILL 19 
GZILL 20 
GZILL 22 
GZILL 23 
GZILL 24 

TAKIGUCHI, DR. YURIKO 
GZILL 1-FB 
GZILL 1 
GZILL 2 
GZILL 3 
GZILL 4 
GZILL 6 
GZILL 7 
GZILL 8 
GZILL 9 
GZILL 17 
GZILL 18 
GZILL 19 
GZILL 20 
GZILL 21 
GZILL 22 
GZILL 24 

Note that this changes the currently listed "Triax" to "Triax I." 

TRIAX II 
GZILL 12 
GZILL 13 
GZILL 14 

WALSH, LEFTY 
GZILL 15 
GZILL 16 

WELLMAN, HAL 
GZILL 15 
GZILL 16 
GZILL 17 
[/url]
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jun 2004 09:02 am    Post subject: Small addendum
By lkseitz

Further reading along Red Ronin's appearances led me to an additional entry for: 

TAKIGUCHI, DR. YURIKO 
GZILL 1-FB 
GZILL 1 
GZILL 2 
GZILL 3 
GZILL 4 
GZILL 6 
GZILL 7 
GZILL 8 
GZILL 9 
GZILL 17 
GZILL 18 
GZILL 19 
GZILL 20 
GZILL 21 
GZILL 22 
GZILL 24 
A 199-BTS
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Thread 37

Posted: 30 May 2004 11:29 am    Post subject: Marvel UK
By Dhall

Does anyone have a list of canon Marvel UK titles? And which Marvel US characters appeared in them? 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 03:39 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Marvel UK titles originating in the UK: 

Death's Head vol. 1 (1988-89) #1-10 
Dragon's Claws (1988) #1-10 
Knights of Pendragon vol. 1 (1990-92) #1-18 
Strip ("adult" anthology) #1-(18?) 
Transformers UK (not Earth-616, but features the first appearances of Death's Head) 

and countless others, such as the numerous Captain Britain-related titles, reprint series with the occasional new story, and so forth; but these are thw ones that lead into the later glut of Marvel UK titles. 

1990s American-published Marvel UK titles: 

Battletide vol. 1 (aka Death's Head/Killpower: Battletide) (1993) #1-4 
Battletide II (1993-94) #1-4 
Black Axe (1993-94) #1-7 
Body Count (1993) #1 (character profiles) 
Codename: Genetix (aka Genetix vol. 1) (1993) #1-4 
Cyberspace 3000 (1993-94) #1-8 (set in the future of the world seen in "Silver Surfer: Parable") 
Dark Angel (remamed from Hell's Angel) (1993-94) #7-16 
Dark Guard (1993-94) #1-4 
Death's Head II vol. 1 (1992) #1-4 
Death's Head II vol. 2 (1992-94) #1-16 
Death's Head & Die-Cut (aka Death's Head II and the Origin of Die-Cut) (1993) #1-4 
Death's Head Gold (1994) #1 
Death Metal (1994) #1-4 
Death Metal vs. Genetix (1994) #1-4 
Death Wreck (1993-94) #1-4 
Death3 (that's "Death cubed") (1994) #1-4 
Die-Cut (1993) #1-4 
Die-Cut vs. G-Force (no, not Battle of the Planets) (1994) #1-4 
Digitek #1-4 (1992-93) 
Gene Dogs (1993-94) #1-6 
Genetix vol. 2 (1993) #1-6 
Gun Runner (1993) #1-6 
Hell's Angel (1992) #1-(6?) (renamed to Dark Angel for #7) 
Incomplete Death's Head (1992-1993) #1-12 (edited reprint with new framing sequences) 
Killpower: The Early Years (1993-94) #1-4 
Knights of Pendragon vol. 2 (1992-93) #1-15 
Motormouth (and Killpower) (1992-93) #1-12 ("and Killpower" starting with #3 or 4) 
Mys-Tech Wars (crossover mini) (1993) #1-4 
Plasmer (1994) #1-4 
Shadow Riders (1993-94) #1-4 
Super Soldiers (1993-94) #1-8 
Warheads vol. 1 (1992-93) #1-14 
Warheads vol. 2 (aka Warheads: Black Dawn) (1993) #1-2 
Wild Thing vol. 1 (aka Nikki Doyle: Wild Thing) (1993-94) #1-7 (set in the 2020 future timeline) 

Frontier Comics titles (they're canonical, Mephisto is the villain in Immortalis): 
Bloodseed (1994) #1-2 
Children of the Voyager (1993-94) #1-4 
Dances with Demons (1993-94) #1-4 
Frontier Comics Special (1993) #1 
Mortigen Goth: Immortalis (1993-94) #1-4 

Overkill #1-52 was a UK reprint of the Marvel UK line (the UK line being published in the US first). Theoretically, the only way for a UK retailer to obtain Marvel UK titles was in the form of Overkill. 

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 05:08 pm    
By SeanCurtin

It occurs to me that "Death's Head II" will pose a problem in regards to character numbering, should we ever get around to analyzing Marvel UK. The character in NF3 1-6 appeared before Death's Head II v1 #1, meaning that "Death's Head II" will actually be Death's Head III. (For that matter, there's also Paxton Page, aka Death's-Head, making "the original Death's Head" into Death's Head II.) 

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 05:17 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
For that matter, there's also Paxton Page, aka Death's-Head, making "the original Death's Head" into Death's Head II. 
<<<


But, with the difference of a hyphen, wouldn't they be considered two different names?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 05:47 pm    
By SeanCurtin

By MCP policy (I think) yes, but that's always seemed like a silly rule to me. The character Stone-Face has also been called Stoneface and Stone Face in the comics - always a different version of the same name in each appearance (Stone-Face twice, Stoneface twice, Stone Face once). Likewise, Blood Wraith was consistently called Bloodwraith in the Avengers vol. 3 appearances (or do I have that backwards?). It makes very little sense to me to list essentially identical names like "Agent X" and "Agent-X" or "Bullseye" and "Bull's-Eye" as completely different character names; it only helps confuse visitors to the site, particularly casual viewers. 

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 06:29 pm    
By Dhall

Thanks Sean. 
Do you know which Marvel US Characters made guest appearances in the Marvel UK issues? 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 07:49 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
It makes very little sense to me to list essentially identical names like "Agent X" and "Agent-X" or "Bullseye" and "Bull's-Eye" as completely different character names; it only helps confuse visitors to the site, particularly casual viewers. 
<<<


In practice, I think the list of appearances will distinguish adequately enough. Realistically, I'm not sure the MCP gets all that many truly "casual" viewers. Surely, anyone sufficiently informed to care whether a listing refers to Death's Head or Deaths-Head will be able to tell the difference? 

Listing homonyms as different iteratons of the same name wouldn't alter this - if anything, it would make characters harder to find, because people would look for the wrong spelling. And people still wouldn't know which numeral was their character!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 May 2004 08:07 pm    Post subject: Cyberspace 3000
By StAkAr Karnak

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
1990s American-published Marvel UK titles: 

Cyberspace 3000 (1993-94) #1-8 (set in the future of the world seen in "Silver Surfer: Parable") 
<<<


C3K took place in the reality of the Guardians of the Galaxy, set shortly after the 25th issue of their series. The Surfer & Galactus in C3K were plucked from Parable, and Warlock was taken from a point during the Infinity Crusade. 

- StAkAr Karnak

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 03:18 am    Post subject: Death's Head II vol. 1 #1-4
By Starman

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Do you know which Marvel US Characters made guest appearances in the Marvel UK issues? 
<<<


Death's Head II vol. 1 #1-4 

2020 AD 
A.I.M. (2020 AD) in issue #1 
Baron Strucker the Fifth (2020 AD). By combining cybernetics and necromantics he fuses together with Death's Head's original body becoming Charnel. Issues #2-3. 

Earth-Charnel (an alternate future, year 2020 AD) 
Charnel, issue #4. 
Avengers from an alternate future (Earth-Charnel). Members are Daredevil, Spider-Man, Punisher, Dr. Strange, Wolverine, Rhino, She-Hulk, Scarlet Witch, Captain America, Mr. Fantastic. Issue #4. 

Earth-616, year 1992 (the present) 
Fantastic Four (all four original members) in issues #2 and 4. 
Avengers. Members are Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Scarlet Witch. Issue #4. 
Hulk (green), issue #4 
Ghost Rider (Dan Ketch), issue #4.
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

Last edited by Starman on 31 May 2004 05:45 am; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 03:44 am    Post subject: Which American characters didn't?
By Enda80

"Do you know which Marvel US Characters made guest appearances in the Marvel UK issues?" 

Actually, in The Black Axe series, Sunfire and the Black Panther appeared, as did the Hand. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/doctorwh.htm 
Incomplete Death's Head#11-12 features cameos by 
Rocket Raccoon, the Hulk, Random, the Scarlet Witch, Doctor Doom, Doctor Strange, Namor, the Crazy Gang, Thor, Doctor Octopus, the Human Torch, the Silver Surfer, Adam Warlock, Apocalypse, and Conan (who wears a "Crom Rules" hat).

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 05:43 am    Post subject: Warheads vol. 1 #1-2
By Starman

Warheads vol. 1 #1 
The Warheads Kether Troop timetravel back to 1988 in the Australian Outback, arriving in a small town, which was X-Men's HQ at this time. They encounter the auto-defences until Wolverine in the underground base shuts them off. The narrative states that Wolverine is alone having been left on guard duty. Three of the the troop dies, and Colonel Liger lets the other travel home, talks with Wolverine, asks him to give him a warning the next time he meets Liger. 
Flashback to Madripoor 1990, Wolverine finds Liger in a bar, they fight, Wolverine gives Liger his scared face. 

Warheads vol. 1 #2 
Nick Fury orders three SHIELD ninja-agents to break into the Mys-Tech HQ to find and steal some of their technology for SHIELD's technicians to examine.
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

Last edited by Starman on 31 May 2004 11:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 05:58 am    Post subject: Death's Head II vol. 2 #1-4
By Starman

Death's Head II vol. 2 #1-4 

X-Men Blue and Gold team trains in the Danger Room. Carebro finds energy readings in Paxton, Oregon. X-Men's Blue team, plus Jubilee, goes there, sees Death's Head II, automatically assumes he's the enemy and attack. Later they team-up against the real enemies.
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 10:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Warheads vol. 1 #1-2
By SeanCurtin

Starman wrote: 
>>>
Warheads vol. 1 #1 
The Warheads Kether Troop timetravel back to 1998 in the Australian Outback, arriving in a small town, which was X-Men's HQ at this time. They encounter the auto-defences until Wolverine in the underground base shuts them off. The narrative states that Wolverine is alone having been left on guard duty. Three of the the troop dies, and Colonel Liger lets the other travel home, talks with Wolverine, asks him to give him a warning the next time he meets Liger. 
Flashback to Madripoor 1990, Wolverine finds Liger in a bar, they fight, Wolverine gives Liger his scared face. 
<<<


Are the 1998/1990 references from the comic itself, or extrapolation based on "X years ago" comments? 

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Warheads vol. 1 #1-2
By Starman

SeanCurtin wrote: 
Are the 1998/1990 references from the comic itself, or extrapolation based on "X years ago" comments? 


They're references from the comic itself, but I think one can look at the publication years of X-Men and Wolverine issues for help in placing the events. X-Men has the HQ in Australia from when they take the HQ from the Reavers in UX 229 (May -88) to when Colossus, Dazzler, Havok and Psylocke enters the Siege Perilious in UX 250-251 (Oct-Nov -89). I think the 1988 event is supposed to have happened somewhere during the 1988 issues.
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

Last edited by Starman on 31 May 2004 11:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 11:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Warheads vol. 1 #1-2
By SeanCurtin

So that's 1988, not 1998? 

-Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 May 2004 11:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Warheads vol. 1 #1-2
By Starman

Oooops! Yes, that's correct, I will edit my earlier posts... 
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 08:37 am    
By Ant-Man

Deathlok (Michael Collins) appears in Digitek 1-3 

Alpha Flight [Aurora, Box (Madison Jeffries), Guardian (Heather Hudson), Northstar, Puck, Sasquatch, Wildheart] appear in Death Metal 1-2 

Beast appears in Die-Cut #1 

Captain Britain and Black Knight appear in Plasmer #2

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 08:48 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Alpha Flight's appearance in Death Metal #1-2 carries right over into Death Metal vs. Genetix #1, as well... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 10:44 am    
By Ant-Man

I didn't know that...I guess I'm headed to the store to try and find that one...

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 10:57 am    
By Dhall

Which issues of Black Axe did Sunfire appear in? 

Which issues of Dark Angel/Hell's Angel did the X-Men appear in? 

Does anyone know of any other X-related apps. in Marvel UK titles, that have not been listed here yet? 

Thanks! 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 11:48 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Dave, you consider Sunfire an X-Man? I mean, I guess so, but he never joined any of the teams -- in fact, he refused twice! I consider him an ally at best... 

As for Marvel UK X-Men guest appearances, I have the following issues, but couldn't tell you exactly who's in them. I believe this is ALL the X-guest shots in Marvel UK (except Sunfire) -- if anyone can add to the list, please do... 

Battletide #1-4 
Codename: Genetix #1-4 
Dark Angel #1-12 
Death Metal #1-2 
Death Metal vs. Genetix #1 
Death's Head II v2 #1-4 
Death's Head II Gold #1 
(do any other issues of DH2:Gold even EXIST?) 
Die Cut #1, 2 
the Knights of Pendragon #1, 4-8, 10-12, 18 
Motormouth & Killpower #6-9 
MyS-Tech Wars #1-4 
Shadow Riders #1-4 
Warheads #1, 4, 5, 8, 9 

And, on my shopping list: 

Incomplete Death's Head #11, 12 
Plasmer #2 (also maybe #1 or 3?) 
(Team Helix #1-4 - does this exist?) 

What've YOU got, Dave?  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 11:54 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Ant-Man wrote: 
>>>
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Alpha Flight's appearance in Death Metal #1-2 carries right over into Death Metal vs. Genetix #1, as well... 
<<<

I didn't know that...I guess I'm headed to the store to try and find that one... 
<<<

Good luck. It took me a LONG time. (Also, FYI, that issue came polybagged with two cards...) 

Oh, and from much earlier in the thread: 

Hell's Angel only held that title for the first FIVE issues. It was renamed "Dark Angel" with issue SIX, not seven. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 12:30 pm    
By Ant-Man

It was no sweat...I ordered it online, and I can pick it up at my local store on Tuesday! 

Sunfire is in Black Axe #2 

Battletide #1-4 - Wolverine & Sabretooth - issues 2-4 only, if I recall correctly 

Codename: Genetix #1-4 - Wolverine 

(do any other issues of DH2:Gold even EXIST?) - Nope 

Die Cut #1, 2 - Beast 

Motormouth & Killpower #6-9 - Cable 

Shadow Riders #1-4 - Cable 

(Team Helix #1-4 - does this exist?) - Nope 

--I have the rest of the issues that you listed, and I'll check them soon...

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 01:08 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Battletide #1-4 
<<<

Wolverine & Sabretooth - issues 2-4 only, if I recall correctly 
<<<

Psylocke too -- and they're in all four issues. 

Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
(do any other issues of DH2:Gold even EXIST?) 
<<<

Nope 
<<<

Are you sure? 

Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
(Team Helix #1-4 - does this exist?) 
<<<

Nope 
<<<

Are you suuuure?  

Team Helix, at least, was solicited in the Bullpen Hype Box at one point -- I'm thinking it was re-named something else. Maybe Gene Dogs or Genetix? In any case, Wolvie was said to be in issue #2. 
-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 01:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Death's Head II vol. 1 #1-4
By John Simons

Starman wrote: 
>>>
Death's Head II vol. 1 #1-4 

Avengers. Members are Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Scarlet Witch. Issue #4.. 
<<<


Actually, based on the beard and helmet, the Thor in question is likely Thor III, Eric Masterson. 

Starman mentions the X-Men being in Death's Head vol. 2, but for those of us who don't have specific X-lineups ("Blue Team") memorized: 

Death's Head II Vol. 2 #1 
Beast 
Colossus 
Cyclops 
Gambit 
Jubliee 
Psylocke 
Rogue 
Wolverine 

For some reason Colossus does not accompany the rest of the X-Men on the mission, so only the other 7 appear in issues 2-4. 

Some other Marvel UK stuff I came across in my basement... 

Hell's Angel #1 
Beast 
Cyclops 
Iceman 
Mephisto 
Professor X 
Psylocke 
Rogue 
Storm 
Wolverine 

Knights of Pendragon, Vol. 1 #1 
Captain Britain 
Alistaire Stuart 
Alysande Stuart 
Dai Thomas 

(don't have #2) 

Knights of Pendragon, Vol. 1 #3 
Dai Thomas 

Knights of Pendragon, Vol. 1 #4 
Captain Britain 
Meggan 
Alysande Stuart 
Dai Thomas 

Knights of Pendragon, Vol. 1 #5 
Captain Britain 
Alistaire Stuart 
Alysande Stuart 
Dai Thomas 

Knights of Pendragon, Vol. 1 #6 
Captain Britain 
Alistaire Stuart 
Alysande Stuart 
Dai Thomas 

Knights of Pendragon, Vol. 1 #7 
Iron Man (on the phone only) 
Dai Thomas 
Union Jack III 

Knights of Pendragon, Vol. 1 #8 
Captain Britain 
Union Jack III 

Knights of Pendragon, Vol. 1 #9 
Dai Thomas 

Knights of Pendragon, Vol. 1 #10 
Captain Britain 
Iron Man 
Alysande Stuart 
Union Jack III 

Knights of Pendragon, Vol. 1 #11 
Captain Britain 
Iron Man 
Dai Thomas 
Union Jack III 

Knights of Pendragon, Vol. 1 #12 
Captain Britain 
Iron Man 
Dai Thomas 
Union Jack III 

Knights of Pendragon, Vol. 1 #13 
Dai Thomas 
Union Jack III 

Knights of Pendragon, Vol. 1 #14 
Black Panther 
Invisible Woman 
Mr. Fantastic 
Union Jack III 

Knights of Pendragon, Vol. 1 #15 
Black Panther 
Union Jack III 

Knights of Pendragon, Vol. 1 #16 
Black Panther 
Union Jack III 

(don't have #17) 

Knights of Pendragon, Vol. 1 #18 
Black Panther 
Captain Britain 
Hawkeye 
Iron Man 
Dai Thomas 
Union Jack III 

I've only brought myself to pick up one issue of Vol. 2. It looks positively ghastly. 
Knights of Pendragon, Vol. 2 #12 
Union Jack III 

Mys-Tech Wars #1 
Archangel 
Bishop 
Black Knight V 
Black Widow II 
Captain America 
Colossus 
Cyclops 
Dr. Strange 
Nick Fury 
Gambit 
Jean Grey 
Havok 
Hercules 
Hulk 
Human Torch II 
Iceman 
Invisible Woman 
Jubilee 
Madrox 
Mr. Fantastic 
Polaris 
Professor X 
Psylocke 
Quicksilver 
Rogue 
Sersi 
She-Hulk 
Storm 
Strong Guy 
Thing 
Thor III 
Union Jack III 
Vision II 
Wolfsbane 
Wolverine 

Mys-Tech Wars #2 
Archangel 
Beast 
Bishop 
Black Knight V 
Black Widow II 
Johnny Blaze 
Captain America 
Captain Britain 
Colossus 
Cyclops 
Dr. Strange 
Nick Fury 
Gambit 
Ghost Rider III 
Jean Grey 
Hulk 
Human Torch II 
Iceman 
Invisible Woman 
Jubilee 
Meggan 
Mr. Fantastic 
Nightcrawler 
Professor X 
Psylocke 
Rogue 
Shadowcat 
She-Hulk 
Spider-Man 
Storm 
Thing 
Thor III 
Vision II 
Wolverine 

Mys-Tech Wars #3 
Archangel 
Beast 
Bishop 
Black Knight V 
Black Widow II 
Captain America 
Colossus 
Cyclops 
Dr. Strange 
Gambit 
Jean Grey 
Havok 
Hulk 
Human Torch II 
Iceman 
Jubilee 
Madrox 
Mr. Fantastic 
Polaris 
Professor X 
Psylocke 
Quicksilver 
Rogue 
She-Hulk 
Strong Guy 
Thing 
Thor III 
Union Jack III 
Vision II 
Wolfsbane 
Wolverine 

Mys-Tech Wars #4 
Black Knight V 
Captain America 
Colossus 
Dr. Strange 
Nick Fury 
Gambit 
Jean Grey 
Hulk 
Invisible Woman 
Professor X 
Psylocke 
Strong Guy 
Wolverine 

Super-soldiers #4 
USAgent 
(He is apparently in other issues, too, but this is the only issue I have of the series) 

Warheads #3 
Nick Fury 
Iron Man 
James Rhodes 

Warheads #4 
Boom Boom 
Cable 
Cannonball 
Domino 
Feral 
Shatterstar 
Warpath 

Warheads #5 
Boom Boom 
Cable 
Cannonball 
Domino 
Feral 
Shatterstar 
Warpath

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 02:06 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Dave, you consider Sunfire an X-Man? I mean, I guess so, but he never joined any of the teams -- in fact, he refused twice! I consider him an ally at best...  
<<<


Um no. I do consider him to be an X-related character, in that he first appeared in X-Men, and that most of his later appearances occur in X-Titles. But I wouldn't consider him to be an X-Man. Still I do try to collect the other appearances of characters whose majority of apps. occur in X-Titles. 


What do I have? For Marvel Uk, sadly not very much. It is the single biggest hole remaining in my X-Men collection. 

I have some Hell's Angels/Dark Angels, Codename: Genetix, some Death'd Head II's, and I just ordered some Knights of Pendragon. 

I've just recently acquired all of the Captain Britain issues from both series, and I've gotten 90% of all of the various other titles that CB was in during the 80's. I've been working on completeing my CB collection recently. I think I may have found sources for everything that I don't have, except a few of the UK Hulk Comics. 

The next gap in my collection will be the rest of the 90's Marvel UK X-Men appearances that I don't have. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 02:13 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

John, Captain Britain appears in Knights of Pendragon #7 as well, out of costume. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 02:18 pm    
By Ant-Man

Quote:
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
(do any other issues of DH2:Gold even EXIST?) 
<<<

Nope 
<<<

Are you sure? 
<<<


Yes 

Quote:
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
(Team Helix #1-4 - does this exist?) 
<<<

Nope 
<<<

Are you suuuure?  
<<<


Yeeeeeeesssss  


I remember the Team Helix solicitation, but didn't give it much thought. After I saw it listed on The Unofficial Handbook of Marvel Comics Creators, I searched everything at my disposal to find evidence of its existence, and came up empty...

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 02:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Death's Head II vol. 1 #1-4
By Ant-Man

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
I've only brought myself to pick up one issue of Vol. 2. It looks positively ghastly. 
<<<
 


Ghastly...that's a pretty good description of it. 
But then again, most of these Marvel UK titles were...lacking. 

I noticed that Dan Abnett & Andy Lanning are receiving critical praise for their current work (I don't recall what the project is--I thinks it's for DC); and I just have to laugh, because they're the people to credit/blame with much of the Marvel UK writing...I guess they've come a long way!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 03:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Death's Head II vol. 1 #1-4
By Andy Holcombe

They were putting out some decent books around the time of Marvel UK as well, including the very nice first volume of Knights of Pendragon. The second volume is horrible, but the first volume is pretty good.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 03:52 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Dark Angel #1-12 
<<<


The X-Men (Wolverine, Psylocke, Cyclops, Iceman, Rogue, Prof. X) appear in #10. Illusions of Beast, Hulk and Spider-Man are in one panel, but this isn't an actual appearance or even a BTS one. I believe the X-Men also appear in #9. 

Quote: 
>>>
Plasmer #2 (also maybe #1 or 3?) 
<<<


According to the Appendix entry on Plasmer, Captains America and Britain and the Black Knight appear in #1-4 and the Silver Surfer in #3-4. 

--Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 03:58 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Knights of Pendragon vol 2 is indeed horrible. But vol 1 is surprisingly good - especially when you consider it was a series about ecology, themed around the medieval poem "Sir Gawan and the Green Knight." It's well worth reading if you can find it. 

Don't touch volume 2 with a ten foot bargepole. It dumps everything that was good about the series, and turns the cast into the Power Rangers.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 06:06 pm    
By Dormammu

Wild Angels (a never released Marvel UK 4-issue miniseries) has been published in Italy only, just because it was pencilled by an italian artist.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 10:05 pm    
By Dhall

Does Wild Angels have any regular Marvel characters in it, or any of the other Marvel UK ones?

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jun 2004 03:26 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

This Italian site suggests that WILD ANGELS was a spin-off from WILD THING. (This was, after all, Marvel UK, who couldn't write a shopping list without giving it four spin-offs and a miniseries co-starring Death's Head II.) 

This does, however, raise an interesting question about the status of stories commissioned by Marvel but only published abroad. I suppose it depends on the reason why it wasn't published - if it was simply considered to be a money-loser, I suppose it ought to count. For example, take that half-completed BLADE miniseries from the time of the first movie. If a foreign licensee had printed the remaining issues, I'd say those ought to count as canon (at least until such time as Marvel did something to disavow them). 

Didn't Marvel Italia produce a handful of original comics claiming to be set in the Marvel Universe? I have vague memories of a comic called EUROFORCE, or something like that - something about a European Union team of superheroes. Marvel Italia was a Marvel subsidiary at the time, and we've included a load of Marvel UK comics never intended for distribution in the USA. Then again, Marvel US has expressly adopted large chunks of Marvel UK continuity, and so far as I know, they've never referenced anything from Italy...
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jun 2004 09:30 am    Post subject: Re: Marvel UK
By Todd

There is a six?-issue miniseries from Marvel Italia called Gemini/Euroforce: Europa. Issue 0 has a date of April 1996, and issue 1 has a date of July 1996. I only have these two issues. Each issue has two 22 page stories: one focusing on Gemini and the other on Euroforce. (Actually by the end of issue 1, the Euroforce story was still about two teams [Eurolab and Task Force] which were, I think, about to merge into one following the murder of half of the characters. The bulk of the characters appearing are original to Marvel Italia but there are many references to existing Marvel Universe insitutions. 

In the Gemini story in issue 0, SHIELD sends an agent code-named Lancelot to check out the Gemini project. The Gemini team are training in a virtual reality world against Marvel characters: Iron Man, Venom, Carnage, Hulk, Thor, and Ghost Rider. In the Gemini story in issue 1, the real Iron Man makes a 1 page appearance. 

The Euroforce story in issue 0 has the teams teaming up with some Subterraneans to battle a shape-shifting monster who is the descendent of a group of Inhumans who escaped from the Spanish Inquisition into Subterranea and survived by consuming the corpses of some Skrulls who had crashed there. One of the characters mentions who Reed Richards determined that Skrull shapeshifting could be passed along through ingestion and mentions the "King's Crossing" episode. The Task Force team is also said to be a special SHIELD group. 

t

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jun 2004 10:09 am
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

My own personal rule is, if it's not published in English, it's not canon. 

(Hmm, I suppose I only mean that for pre-existing characters. If, say, the Fantastic Four guest-star in an Italian Marvel comic, speaking fluent Italian, it's probably not canon.) 

Heh. What about a comic commisioned by Marvel UK but published only by Marvel Italia, with US guest-stars who speak Italian -- but it's in <brackets> and a footnote says "*translated from English"? 

Ugh.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jun 2004 12:20 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
This Italian site suggests that WILD ANGELS was a spin-off from WILD THING. (This was, after all, Marvel UK, who couldn't write a shopping list without giving it four spin-offs and a miniseries co-starring Death's Head II.) 
<<<


As I remember it, Nikki Doyle: Wild Thing was set in a future, so we'd only need to pay as much attention to it as we care to. Of course I've tried to forget most of the Marvel UK stuff, so I could be wrong.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2004 01:27 am    
By SeanCurtin

Wild Angels was apparently a Dark Angel/Wild Thing spin-off, a la Power Man and Iron Fist. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2004 05:39 am    Post subject: Red Skull
By dimadick

"Die Cut #1, 2 - Beast" 

Die Cut #4 features a guest appearance by Red Skull. Or at least someone claiming to be him. Since when does Johann dream of creating his own race of gods? See: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/diecutmuk.htm

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2004 12:32 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Where'd you get the X-Men info? The site you link to doesn't appear to have anything about their appearance in Super Soldiers. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2004 02:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Death's Head II vol. 1 #1-4
By Peter Fabricius

Starman wrote: 

>>>
Super-soldiers #4 
USAgent 
(He is apparently in other issues, too, but this is the only issue I have of the series) 
<<<
 


I have #1-4 & 6-7 

Super-soldiers #1 
US Agent (at Av. Compound) 
Spider-Woman II 
Henry Peter Gyrich (as member of Commision of Superhuman Activities) 

There is a flashback referencing Captain America & Bucky during WW2, Nomad III (Jack Monroe), Fantastic Four, Crimson Dynamo, Omega Red and Nuke (Simpson) from Daredevil. 
The flashback explicitly says that the FF first appeared in the early 1960's. 

Super-soldiers #2 
US Agent (at Av. Compound) 
Henry Peter Gyrich 

Super-soldiers #3 
US Agent 
Henry Peter Gyrich 

Super-soldiers #4 
US Agent 

Super-soldiers #6 
Nick Fury 

Super-soldiers #7 
Nick Fury (aboard the Helicarrier) 
Hydra 
Shinobi Shaw 
Mandarin 
Has a flashback with Charles Xavier, Cyclops II, Colossus II and Wolverine trying to recruit The Guvnor.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2004 03:29 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

"The Guvnor"? Oh my. 

I must own this. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2004 04:21 pm    
By SeanCurtin

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/guvnorss.htm 
"Initially they thought the strange bald american was from the police, but when Andrews father realised Charles wanted to take his son to "boarding school" he became angry, thinking him a pervert." 

And there was not one, but two Guvnors. 

Peter, does the flashback give any clues as to its chronological placement regarding the X-Men? Specifically, what costumes are they wearing? 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2004 04:34 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
"The Guvnor"? Oh my. 

I must own this. 
<<< 


I just ordered one... 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2004 05:55 pm    Post subject: Super-Soldiers #5 and #8
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

Super-Soldiers #5 
US Agent 
Captain America 

Super-Soldiers #8 
Punisher 


also... 

Super Soldiers #6  
Hydra 

Super-Soldiers #7  
Reference to the Gamesmaster: Shinobi Shaw  Perhaps the Gamesmaster will award me a point or two in my contest with the other upstarts.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2004 08:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Death's Head II vol. 1 #1-4
By Starman

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Starman mentions the X-Men being in Death's Head vol. 2, but for those of us who don't have specific X-lineups ("Blue Team") memorized: 

Death's Head II Vol. 2 #1 
Beast 
Colossus 
Cyclops 
Gambit 
Jubliee 
Psylocke 
Rogue 
Wolverine 

For some reason Colossus does not accompany the rest of the X-Men on the mission, so only the other 7 appear in issues 2-4. 
<<<


You missed the appearences of Archangel and Jean Grey, so the full list would be something like this: 

X-Men Gold team members in DHII vol. 2 #1 
Archangel 
Colossus 
Jean Grey 
(all three fighting in the Danger Room) 

X-Men Blue team members in DHII vol. 2 #1-4 
Beast (in the Danger Room's control room in his first appearence in issue #1) 
Cyclops (in the Danger Room's control room in his first appearence in issue #1) 
Gambit (fighting in the Danger Room in his first appearence in issue #1) 
Psylocke (in the Danger Room's control room in her first appearence in issue #1) 
Rogue (in the Danger Room's control room in her first appearence in issue #1) 
Wolverine (fighting in the Danger Room in his first appearence in issue #1) 

Jubliee (Guest member or whatever one should call her. To my knowledge she never were an official member of the Blue team. In the Danger Room's control room in her first appearence in issue #1)
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jun 2004 11:32 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Peter, does the flashback give any clues as to its chronological placement regarding the X-Men? Specifically, what costumes are they wearing? 
<<<


They are in civilian, specifically Xavier, Colossus and Wolverine are in the exact same clothes as in Uncanny #129 where they first meet Kitty Pryde. 

So it could be around that time, I don't think I've seen Colossus dressed like that anywhere else.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2004 03:19 pm    
By SeanCurtin

There's a little room between pages 2 & 3 of UX 129 where the flashback could fit. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2004 08:32 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

That doesn't work so well. On page 2 of UX 129, the X-Men (Kurt, Scott, Logan, Peter, Ororo, and Phoenix, all in costume) take off from Muir Island in the Blackbird. On page 7, they arrive at Westchester, where Xavier is waiting for them. The X-Men are surprised at his return and Xavier expresses his relief at seeing the team alive and well. In the Super Soldiers flashback, we see Scott, Peter, Logan, and Xavier (all in plain clothes). But you are right, the clothes Peter and Logan wear are identical to those they wear a little later in UX 129. 

Placing the flashback in Super Soldiers #7 during the span of "days" between pages 6 and 7 of UX 129 would work much better. Although these days are described in the narrative as "quiet" and "lazy," I suppose a visit to recruit the Guvnor wouldn't be too much of a disruption of the tranquility.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jun 2004 05:42 pm    
By Jim

Warheads # 7 

Lord Chaos 
Master Order 
Silver Surfer 

Warheads # 8 

Silver Surfer 
Cyclops 
Storm 
Jubilee 
Wolverine 

Cyberspace 3000 # 6 also has Thanos. I don't have anymore beyond #6 but the story development suggests more Adam Warlock and Thanos. 

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jun 2004 09:44 pm    
By Dhall

Now that I have all of these, Does anyone know where they fit in X-Men chronology? 


Dave H

			*	*	*

Thread 38

Posted: 26 Jun 2004 03:50 pm    Post subject: Yeti update; Olshevsky said he is same
By Enda80

YETI/KALIBAN 
M/:LG 10 
M/:LG 11 
{M/:LG 12} 
X:HY 16-FB 
FF 99 ~ M/:LG 7 
X:HY 16-FB-BTS 
X:HY 16 
**FF 117 

In FF Index, Olshevksy said Yeti was the same as Kaliban, so I have made the above changes. Does XHY take place before or after FF 117?

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jun 2004 08:58 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

XHY takes place well before FF 117. See, for instance, Mr. Fantastic's chronology circa FF 103. 


watching: lizzie mcquire

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jun 2004 10:58 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Wasn't this point already raised and settled on the old posting board? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jun 2004 11:25 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

No, really. I'm asking. WAS this settled on the old board, or are you adding something new here that I'm not realizing? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jun 2004 12:23 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

He may be questioning why the entry for FF 117 hasn't been made to Yeti's chronology, and...I don't know why.  


watching: conan o'brien

			*	*	*

Thread 39

Posted: 19 Jun 2004 02:02 pm    Post subject: Team America
By Marvologist

In what way does this series connect to the MU? I was thinking that Captain America had something to do with it, but after a couple of scans of his chronology I didn't spot "TA" if it's there.
_________________
I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Jun 2004 08:17 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Cap didn't appear in Team America, but Team America did appear in CA 269. Team America also appeared in NM 5-6 and 8.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jun 2004 01:31 am    
By SeanCurtin

Also, most of their enemies were HYDRA agents, and they later resurfaced in the Thing's solo series. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jun 2004 10:45 am    
By Ant-Man

Didn't they change their name to Thunderiders when they appeared in Thing?

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jun 2004 04:18 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Yup. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 40

Posted: 24 Feb 2004 01:02 pm    Post subject: Ultimate Universe Chronology version 1.4
By jimmyflowers

Reposting this for the new board format. Will be updating it at the beginning of March at the latest. 

Ultimates 010-FB1 (Pages 2-5) 
Ultimates 010-FB2 (Pages 6-7) 
Ultimates 001 (Pages 1 through 23) 
Ultimate Team-Up 005-FB (Page 3, panels 3-4) 
Ultimate Adventures 005-FB1 (Pages 14-17) 
Ultimate Adventures 005-FB2 (Page 19, panels 2, 4+ through Page 21) 
Ultimate Team-Up 005-FB (Page 3, panel 5) 
Ultimate Team-Up 005-FB (Page 3, panel 6) 
Ultimate X-Men 011-FB (Pages 1 through 9) 
Ultimate Adventures 005-FB3 (Page 22, panel 2 through Page 23) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 005-FB (Pages 2-3, 6, 9, 13-14, 16-19) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 033-FB (Page 8, panel 4 through Page 11) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB01 (Pages 2-5) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB02 (Pages 6-9) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB03 (Pages 10-11) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB04 (Pages 12-13) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB05 (Pages 14-15) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB06 (Pages 16-17) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB07 (Pages 18-20) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB08 (Page 21, panel 1) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB09 (Page 21, panel 2) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB10 (Page 21, panel 3) 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra 1 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra 2 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra 3 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra 4 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 012-FB (Pages 2 through 3) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 014-FB1 (Pages 1 through 2) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 010-FB (Pages 6 through 10) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 001 
Ultimate Spider-Man 002 
Ultimate Spider-Man 003 
Ultimate Spider-Man 004 
Ultimate Spider-Man 005 
Ultimate X-Men 001 
Ultimate X-Men 003-FB (Page 7, panel 4) 
Ultimate X-Men 002 
Ultimate Spider-Man 006 
Ultimate Spider-Man 007 
Ultimate X-Men 003 
Ultimate X-Men 004 
Ultimate Spider-Man 008 
Ultimate Spider-Man 009 
Ultimate Spider-Man 010 
Ultimate Spider-Man 011 
Ultimate Spider-Man 012 
Ultimate X-Men 005 
Ultimate X-Men 006 
Ultimate X-Men One-Half 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 001 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 002 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 003 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 004 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 014-FB2 (Page 3) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 005 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 006 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 007 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 008 
Ultimate Spider-Man 013 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 009 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 1-25) 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 26-28) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 014 
Ultimate Spider-Man 015 
Ultimate Spider-Man 016 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 010 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 011 
Ultimate X-Men 007 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 012 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 013 
Ultimate X-Men 008 
Ultimate X-Men 009 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 014 
Ultimate Spider-Man 017 
Ultimate Spider-Man 018 
Ultimate Spider-Man 019 
Ultimate Spider-Man 020 (Pages 1-18) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046-FB1 (Page 6) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 020 (Pages 19+) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 1-12) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046-FB2 (Pages 7-31) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 13+) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046 (Pages 2-5 and 32) 
Ultimate X-Men 013 
Ultimate X-Men 014 
Ultimates 001 (Page 24+) 
Ultimate X-Men 015 
Ultimates 002 
Ultimates 003 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 1 through 13) 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 29-30) 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 31+) 
Ultimate X-Men 016 
Ultimate X-Men 017 
Ultimate X-Men 018 
Ultimate X-Men 019 
Ultimate X-Men 020 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 015 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 016 
Ultimate Spider-Man One-Half 
Ultimate Spider-Man 022 
Ultimate Spider-Man 023 
Ultimate Spider-Man 024 
Ultimate Spider-Man 025 
Ultimate Spider-Man 026 
Ultimate Spider-Man 027 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 14+) 
Ultimates 005 
Ultimates 006 
Ultimates 007 
Ultimates 008 
Ultimates 009 
Ultimates 010 
Ultimates 011 
Ultimates 012 
Ultimate X-Men 021 
Ultimate X-Men 022 
Ultimate X-Men 023 
Ultimate X-Men 024 
Ultimate X-Men 029-FB1 (Pages 2-7) 
Ultimate X-Men 029-FB2 (Pages 10-11) 
Ultimate X-Men 025 
Ultimate X-Men 029-FB3 (Page 14 panels 1-3) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 028 
Ultimate War 1 
Ultimate War 2 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate Adventures 001 
Ultimate Adventures 002 
Ultimate Adventures 003 
Ultimate Adventures 004 
Ultimate Adventures 005 
Ultimate Adventures 006 
Ultimate Spider-Man 029 
Ultimate Spider-Man 030 
Ultimate Spider-Man 031 
Ultimate Spider-Man 032 
Ultimate Spider-Man 045-FB (Pages 9-10) 
Ultimate X-Men 026 (Pages 22-24) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 033 
Ultimate Spider-Man 034 
Ultimate Spider-Man 035 
Ultimate Spider-Man 036 
Ultimate Spider-Man 037 
Ultimate Spider-Man 038 
Ultimate Spider-Man 039 
Ultimate X-Men 027 
Ultimate X-Men 028 
Ultimate X-Men 029-FB4 (Page 14 panel 4 through Page 16) 
Ultimate X-Men 029 
Ultimate X-Men 030 
Ultimate X-Men 031 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 1-10) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 040 
Ultimate Spider-Man 041 
Ultimate Spider-Man 042 
Ultimate Spider-Man 043 
Ultimate Spider-Man 044 
Ultimate Spider-Man 045 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 
Ultimate X-Men 033 
Ultimate X-Men 034 
Ultimate X-Men 035 
Ultimate X-Men 036 
Ultimate X-Men 037 
Ultimate X-Men 038

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Mar 2004 07:28 pm    Post subject: Ultimate Adventures Placement
By Jason Doty

Jimmy, don't you think Ultimate Adventures should be moved up on your chronology list, based on the Ultimates line up. It should occur somewhere between issue six of Ultimates.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Mar 2004 08:15 pm    
By jimmyflowers

It's possible. I'm kind of waiting until I get a good look at Ultimates 13. I know Hawkeye and Black Widow don't appear in the Ultimate Adventures series, but that doesn't mean they weren't part of the team at that point. 

All of the members that appear in Ultimate Adventures (Giant Man, Wasp, Thor, Captain America, and Iron Man) were still members of the Ultimates as of issue 12, so unless any of them die off in 13, I think it's possible that it could occur after the Ultimate War. 

Not sure. Really need to read Ultimates 13 first (if there ever is one!).

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Mar 2004 09:00 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

jimmyflowers wrote: 
>>>
All of the members that appear in Ultimate Adventures (Giant Man, Wasp, Thor, Captain America, and Iron Man) were still members of the Ultimates as of issue 12, so unless any of them die off in 13, I think it's possible that it could occur after the Ultimate War. 
<<<


Giant-Man is not shown as a member of the Ultimates in ULTIMATE WAR (in fact, he's not in the series at all). When he turns up in ULTIMATE SIX, we're told unambiguously that he's no longer on the team (and it's made clear that his presence at a meeting with the Ultimates is awkward). The clear implication is that Giant-Man was kicked off the team after assaulting Wasp, in which case the story has to be shoehorned in between pages of issue #6 (since immediately after that story Giant-Man goes on the run following his attack on Wasp and, for aught seen, never returns to the active roster). 

I have Giant-Man's continuity as follows:- 

GIANT-MAN (Dr Hank Pym) 
Ultimate Spider-Man #14 
Ultimates #2 
Ultimates #3 
Ultimates #4 
Ultimates #5 
Ultimates #6 
Ultimate Adventures #3 
Ultimate Adventures #4 
Ultimates #6 
Ultimates #8 
Ultimates #9 
Ultimate Six #1 
Ultimate Six #2 
Ultimate Six #3
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2004 11:56 am    
By Marvologist

Do any of you know how Marvel is going to include Ultimate Spider-Man #46 in the hardcover sequence? Is the Ultimate Spider-Man hardcover vol. 5 going to include 46 and the Ultimate Six mini-series? 

And if so, does that mean #46 should actually be read out of numerical sequence, in the exact order they arrange it in the hardcover volumes?
_________________
I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jun 2004 08:16 pm    
By jimmyflowers

I'm not sure what the plan is for the hardcover books. Having read Ultimate Spider-Man 46 after issue 45, I can tell you that it makes sense there as well as in its chronological position. If I were to read it all over again, I would read it in chronological order, but it's really an individual choice. If you've got this list (see above), you can read it either way (chronologically or published order). 

BTW, I will be posting an update to the chronology soon. All I need to do is read the Ultimate FF issues 1-6, and I'll be ready to post a new list!

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 10:20 am    
By Marvologist

Thanks for the response to my confusion over this #46 thing. I'll wait for the next hardcover and just read that issue in the order they put it. 

I'm looking forward to your placement of the UFF. I'm going to read the Ultimate titles in the order you put them, with the exception of Ultimates 1-13. Ultimate Spider-Man 1-26, Ultimate X-Men 1-10, and Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 1-3. I read those already, more or less as they were coming out. But I stopped there and have been buying all the other Ultimate series and limited series until I reach the current issues, then I will start reading again from there, going by your system.
_________________
I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Thread 41

Posted: 29 Apr 2004 03:06 am    Post subject: Ultimate Fantastic Four #005
By Mart

Ok, I don't really have the time right now to get all the references and issue numbers I need, this is just something to mull over for the moment. 

UFF #005 - When the Mole Man's monster starts smashing up New York, Johnny Storm accidentally burns through the glass of one of the upper levels of the Baxter building and falls out, flaming on in mid-air. As he flies towards the creature, his father calls to him to come back and to "Let the Ultimates handle it!" 

I'm only 70-80%ish sure of this, but haven't all the Ultimate books prior to now always referred to the Fantastic Four as having been around a long time? They've also made references to Reed being a great scientist, and although it's unlikely that the Government would let him go commercial while he's still working at the Baxter Building, it's possible that even so he's fairly renowned. 

Of course the simple solution would be to just throw the reference out.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Apr 2004 04:16 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The Ultimate Fantastic Four have been referred to sporadically, but have only one previous canonical appearance, in ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN SUPER SPECIAL. (ULTIMATE MARVEL TEAM-UP seems not to count, according to interviews.) 

Both comics, however, showed a much older version of Reed Richards, complete with greying hair. For this to be the same character seen in UFF would require the FF to have debuted decades before Spider-Man and the Ultimates. (Not inherently implausible, because UMTU made clear that numerous heroes had indeed been active for years before Spider-Man came around.) 

I think it's highly unlikely that a reference to the Ultimates is an accident on a multi-decade scale. It's much more likely that this is a conscious indication that the FF's appearance in USSS was also non-canon, and the team's (very, very minor) previous appearances in the Ultimate continuity are being wiped in favour of this fresh start.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Apr 2004 02:36 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

However... on further reflection, there's another problem with that line. Thunderbolt Ross has appeared in ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR, and was present at their origin. In Ultimate continuity, he was the previous head of SHIELD, and Nick Fury took over when he died. 

The Ultimates weren't formed until after Ross had died, which means that the story now has internal references pointing both ways. So the reference must be a mistake - it's that or discard the appearance of a character with a speaking part.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 May 2004 01:08 am    
By PopularLoser

Can we rule that line as topical (I don't know if that's the right term), since the Ultimates has been published for a year or two prior to Ultimate Fantastic Four?
_________________
<Insert Signature Here>

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 01:21 pm    
By SKleefeld

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
However... on further reflection, there's another problem with that line. Thunderbolt Ross has appeared in ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR, and was present at their origin. In Ultimate continuity, he was the previous head of SHIELD, and Nick Fury took over when he died. 

The Ultimates weren't formed until after Ross had died, which means that the story now has internal references pointing both ways. So the reference must be a mistake - it's that or discard the appearance of a character with a speaking part. 
<<<

I think you guys are missing the "obvious" answer. Now I haven't heard Bendis speak to this, but I wouldn't put it past him to have conceived of a 1940s (or '60s or '80s or whatever) Ultimates. You could therefore place the Ultimate FF with Ross substantially prior to the current Ultimates book and still have both references make sense. The line of dialogue would then be interpretted as something akin to Stan and Jack using "Call the All-Winners Squad!" in their first FF issue.

			*	*	*

Thread 42

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 09:43 pm    Post subject: Ultimate Universe Team & Group Chronologies version 1.5
By jimmyflowers

ACOLYTES 
Ultimate X-Men 020 

BROTHERHOOD OF MUTANTS 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB03 (Pages 10-11) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB04 (Pages 12-13) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB05 (Pages 14-15) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB06 (Pages 16-17) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB07 (Pages 18-20) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB08 (Page 21, panel 1) 
Ultimate X-Men 001 
Ultimate X-Men 002 
Ultimate X-Men 003 
Ultimate X-Men 004 
Ultimate X-Men 005 
Ultimate X-Men 006 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate X-Men 015 
Ultimate X-Men 022 
Ultimate X-Men 023 
Ultimate X-Men 024 
Ultimate X-Men 025 
Ultimate War 1 
Ultimate X-Men 026 (Pages 22-24) 
Ultimate X-Men 027 
Ultimate X-Men 028 
Ultimate X-Men 029-FB4 (Page 14 panel 4 through Page 16) 
Ultimate X-Men 029 
Ultimate X-Men 030 
Ultimate X-Men 031 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 1-10) 

DINOSAURS 
Ultimate X-Men 023 
Ultimate X-Men 029-FB2 (Pages 10-11) 

ENFORCERS 
Ultimate Spider-Man 009 
Ultimate Spider-Man 010 
Ultimate Spider-Man 011 
Ultimate Spider-Man 012 

FANTASTIC FOUR 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 001 (Pages 1-2) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 001 (Pages 18+) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 002 (Pages 1-14) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 002 (Pages 15+) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 003 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 004 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 005 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 006 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 31+) 
*Currently, Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 009 is considered non-canon. 

FBI 
Ultimate Spider-Man 009 
Ultimate Six 0 
Ultimate Six 1 

HAWKEYE 
Ultimate War 1 

HELLFIRE CLUB 
Ultimate X-Men 024 
Ultimate X-Men 025 

IRAQI ARMY 
Ultimate X-Men 011-FB (Pages 1 through 9) 

MANDROIDS 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 004 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 005 

MILITARY 
Ultimates 010-FB2 (Pages 6-7) 
Ultimates 001 (Pages 1 through 23) 
Ultimate X-Men 011-FB (Pages 1 through 9) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 002 (Pages 15+) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 003 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB10 (Page 21, panel 3) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 003 
Ultimates 009 
Ultimates 010 
Ultimates 011 
Ultimates 012 
Ultimates 013 
Ultimate War 1 
Ultimate X-Men 028 
Ultimate Six 5 

MOLODS 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 005 

MOLOIDS 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 003 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 004 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 006 

MUTANT X 
Ultimate X-Men 008 

NASA 
Ultimate X-Men 027 

NATZIS 
Ultimates 010-FB1 (Pages 2-5) 
Ultimates 001 (Pages 1 through 23) 
Ultimates 011 
Ultimates 012 

PLASMIDS 
Ultimate Spider-Man 025 

RED DEVIL 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 005-FB (Pages 2-3, 6, 9, 13-14, 16-19) 

RUSSIAN MAFIA 
Ultimate X-Men 008 

SENTINELS 
Ultimate X-Men 001 
Ultimate X-Men 003 
Ultimate X-Men 005 
Ultimate X-Men 006 
Ultimate X-Men 027 
Ultimate X-Men 028 
Ultimate X-Men 029 
Ultimate X-Men 030 
Ultimate X-Men 031 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 1-10) 
Ultimate X-Men 044 
Ultimate X-Men 045 

SHIELD 
Ultimate Spider-Man 016 
Ultimate X-Men 007 
Ultimate X-Men 008 
Ultimate X-Men 009 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate Spider-Man 018 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046-FB1 (Page 6) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 1-12) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046-FB2 (Pages 7-31) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 13+) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046 (Pages 2-5 and 32) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046 (Pages 2-5 and 32) 
Ultimates 002 
Ultimates 003 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 1 through 13) 
Ultimate X-Men 016 
Ultimate X-Men 017 
Ultimate X-Men 018 
Ultimate Spider-Man 026 
Ultimate Spider-Man 027 
Ultimates 008 
Ultimates 009 
Ultimates 010 
Ultimates 011 
Ultimates 012 
Ultimates 013 
Ultimate War 2 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate Spider-Man 039 
Ultimate X-Men 027 
Ultimate X-Men 028 
Ultimate X-Men 029 
Ultimate X-Men 032 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 
Ultimate X-Men 039 
Ultimate Six 1 
Ultimate Six 2 
Ultimate Six 3 
Ultimate Six 4 
Ultimate Six 5 
Ultimate Six 6 
Ultimate Six 7 
Ultimate X-Men 043 
Ultimate X-Men 044 
Ultimate X-Men 045 
Ultimate Spider-Man 057 
Ultimate Spider-Man 059 (Pages 1-18) 

SKRULLS 
Ultimates 008 
Ultimates 010 
Ultimates 011 
Ultimates 012 
Ultimates 013 

STRIKE 
Ultimate X-Men 016 
Ultimate X-Men 017 
Ultimate X-Men 018 

ULTIMATES 
Ultimates 001 (Page 24+) 
Ultimates 002 
Ultimates 003 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 1 through 13) 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 14+) 
Ultimates 005 
Ultimates 006 (Pages 1-5) 
Ultimates 006 (Pages 6+) 
Ultimates 007 
Ultimates 008 
Ultimates 009 
Ultimates 010 
Ultimates 011 
Ultimates 012 
Ultimates 013 
Ultimate War 1 
Ultimate War 2 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate Adventures 003 
Ultimate Adventures 004 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 
Ultimate Six 0 
Ultimate Six 1 
Ultimate Six 2 
Ultimate Six 3 
Ultimate Six 4 
Ultimate Six 5 
Ultimate Six 6 
Ultimate Six 7 

US ARMY 
Ultimate X-Men One-Half 

WEAPON X 
Ultimate X-Men 002 
Ultimate X-Men 007 
Ultimate X-Men 009 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate X-Men 034 
Ultimate X-Men 035 
Ultimate X-Men 036 
Ultimate X-Men 037 
Ultimate X-Men 038 
Ultimate X-Men 039 

X-MEN 
Ultimate X-Men 011-FB (Pages 1 through 9) 
Ultimate X-Men 001 
Ultimate X-Men 002 
Ultimate X-Men 003 
Ultimate X-Men 004 
Ultimate X-Men 005 
Ultimate X-Men 006 
Ultimate X-Men One-Half 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 011 
Ultimate X-Men 007 
Ultimate X-Men 008 
Ultimate X-Men 009 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate X-Men 013 
Ultimate X-Men 014 
Ultimate X-Men 015 
Ultimate X-Men 016 
Ultimate X-Men 017 
Ultimate X-Men 018 
Ultimate X-Men 019 
Ultimate X-Men 020 
Ultimate X-Men 021 
Ultimate X-Men 022 
Ultimate X-Men 023 
Ultimate X-Men 024 
Ultimate X-Men 029-FB1 (Pages 2-7) 
Ultimate X-Men 025 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate X-Men 028 
Ultimate X-Men 029 
Ultimate X-Men 030 
Ultimate X-Men 031 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 1-10) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 042 
Ultimate Spider-Man 043 
Ultimate Spider-Man 044 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 
Ultimate X-Men 033 
Ultimate X-Men 034 
Ultimate X-Men 035 
Ultimate X-Men 036 
Ultimate X-Men 037 
Ultimate X-Men 038 
Ultimate X-Men 039 
Ultimate X-Men 040 
Ultimate X-Men 041 
Ultimate X-Men 042 
Ultimate X-Men 043 
Ultimate X-Men 044 
Ultimate X-Men 045 
Ultimate X-Men 046

			*	*	*

Thread 43

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 09:55 pm    Post subject: Thank you to all Ultimate fans who read this board.
By jimmyflowers

Just wanted to offer a note of thanks to those who frequent this board. Due to your suggestions, I moved the placement of Ultimate Adventures within my chronologies. I also relied upon you to help me take a stab at the whole Ultimate FF thing. 

Please continue to post comments and notes. Your help is appreciated. 

Long live the Ultimate Universe! 

--Jimmy Flowers

			*	*	*

Thread 44

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 09:46 pm    Post subject: Ultimate Universe Character Chronologies version 1.5
By jimmyflowers

NOTE: Currently, Ultimate Marvel Team-Up is considered non-canon. 

AGENT COBB (FBI) 
Ultimate Six 0 
Ultimate Six 1 

AGENT TUCCI (FBI) 
Ultimate Six 0 
Ultimate Six 1 

ALLEN, LIZ 
Ultimate Spider-Man 054 
Ultimate Spider-Man 055 
Ultimate Spider-Man 059 (Pages 19-20) 

ANGEL/WARREN WORTHINGTON 
Ultimate X-Men 040 
Ultimate X-Men 042 
Ultimate X-Men 043 
Ultimate X-Men 044 
Ultimate X-Men 045 
Ultimate X-Men 046 
Ultimate X-Men 047 

ANT-MAN/DOCTOR PYM 
Ultimate Spider-Man 014 
Ultimates 002 
Ultimates 003 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 1 through 13) 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 14+) 
Ultimates 005 
Ultimates 006 
Ultimates 006 (Pages 1-5) 
Ultimate Adventures 003 
Ultimate Adventures 004 
Ultimates 006 (Pages 6+) 
Ultimates 008 
Ultimates 009 
Ultimate Six 1 
Ultimate Six 2 
Ultimate Six 3 
Ultimate Six 7 

APOCALYPSE 
Ultimate X-Men 047 

ARAD, AVI 
Ultimate Spider-Man 054 
Ultimate Spider-Man 055 
Ultimate Spider-Man 056 
Ultimate Spider-Man 057 
Ultimate Spider-Man 059 (Pages 1-18) 

AYERS, MR. 
Ultimate Spider-Man 043 
Ultimate Spider-Man 044 

BARNES, GAIL 
Ultimates 007 

BEAST/HENRY MCCOY 
Ultimate X-Men 001 
Ultimate X-Men 002 
Ultimate X-Men 003 
Ultimate X-Men 004 
Ultimate X-Men 006 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 011 
Ultimate X-Men 007 
Ultimate X-Men 008 
Ultimate X-Men 009 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate X-Men 015 
Ultimate X-Men 016 
Ultimate X-Men 017 
Ultimate X-Men 018 
Ultimate X-Men 019 
Ultimate X-Men 020 
Ultimate X-Men 021 
Ultimate X-Men 022 
Ultimate X-Men 023 
Ultimate X-Men 024 
Ultimate X-Men 025 
Ultimate War 2 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate X-Men 028 
Ultimate X-Men 029 
Ultimate X-Men 030 
Ultimate X-Men 031 
Ultimate X-Men 031 
Ultimate X-Men 032 
Ultimate Spider-Man 044 
Ultimate X-Men 037 
Ultimate X-Men 038 
Ultimate X-Men 039 
Ultimate X-Men 040 
Ultimate X-Men 042 
Ultimate X-Men 043 
Ultimate X-Men 044 
Ultimate X-Men 045 

BLACK CAT 
Ultimate Spider-Man 050 
Ultimate Spider-Man 052 
Ultimate Spider-Man 053 

BLACK WIDOW 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 014-FB1 (Pages 1 through 2) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 014-FB2 (Page 3) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 014 
Ultimates 007 
Ultimates 008 

BLACK WIDOW/NATASHA ROMANOV 
Ultimates 009 
Ultimates 011 
Ultimates 012 
Ultimates 013 
Ultimate War 1 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate X-Men 035 
Ultimate Six 0 
Ultimate Six 1 
Ultimate Six 2 
Ultimate Six 3 
Ultimate Six 5 
Ultimate Six 6 
Ultimate X-Men 045 

BLADE 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 1-28) 

BLOB 
Ultimate X-Men 003 
Ultimate X-Men 004 
Ultimate X-Men 005 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate X-Men 015 
Ultimate X-Men 022 
Ultimate X-Men 023 
Ultimate X-Men 025 
Ultimate X-Men 026 (Pages 22-24) 
Ultimate X-Men 027 

BORIS 
Ultimate X-Men 008 

BRADDOCK, BRIAN 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 

BRADDOCK, LORD 
Ultimate X-Men 019 

BRADDOCK, PROFESSOR 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 

BRADDOCK, STRIKE AGENT BETSY 
Ultimate X-Men 016 
Ultimate X-Men 017 
Ultimate X-Men 018 
Ultimate X-Men 019 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 

BRADLEY, AGENT 
Ultimate Spider-Man 011 
Ultimate Spider-Man 024 

BRANKIN, DR. EAMONN 
Ultimates 007 

BRANT, BETTY 
Ultimate Spider-Man 008 
Ultimate Spider-Man 016 
Ultimate Spider-Man 019 
Ultimate Spider-Man One-Half 
Ultimate Spider-Man 029 
Ultimate Spider-Man 043 

BROCK SR., EDDIE 
Ultimate Spider-Man 033-FB (Page 8, panel 4 through Page 11) 

BROCK SR., MRS. EDDIE 
Ultimate Spider-Man 033-FB (Page 8, panel 4 through Page 11) 

BROWNING, DETECTIVE 
Ultimate X-Men 047 

BRTICK, SHIELD AGENT 
Ultimate Six 7 

BUCKY/BUCKY BARNES 
Ultimates 010-FB2 (Pages 6-7) 
Ultimates 001 (Pages 1 through 23) 
Ultimates 003 
Ultimates 007 

BULLIT, SAM 
Ultimate Spider-Man 047 
Ultimate Spider-Man 048 

BUSH, PRESIDENT GEORGE 
Ultimate X-Men 005 
Ultimate X-Men 006 
Ultimates 003 
Ultimates 011 
Ultimate X-Men 022 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 1-10) 

CAPTAIN AMERICA 
Ultimates 010-FB1 (Pages 2-5) 
Ultimates 010-FB2 (Pages 6-7) 
Ultimates 001 (Pages 1 through 23) 
Ultimates 002 
Ultimates 003 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 1 through 13) 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 14+) 
Ultimates 005 
Ultimates 006 
Ultimates 006 (Pages 1-5) 
Ultimate Adventures 003 
Ultimate Adventures 004 
Ultimates 006 (Pages 6+) 
Ultimates 006 (Pages 6+) 
Ultimates 007 
Ultimates 008 
Ultimates 009 
Ultimates 010 
Ultimates 011 
Ultimates 012 
Ultimates 013 
Ultimate War 1 
Ultimate War 2 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate X-Men 033 
Ultimate Six 0 
Ultimate Six 1 
Ultimate Six 2 
Ultimate Six 3 
Ultimate Six 4 
Ultimate Six 5 
Ultimate Six 6 
Ultimate Six 7 

CARTER, SHIELD AGENT SHARON 
Ultimate Spider-Man 018 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046-FB1 (Page 6) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 1-12) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046-FB2 (Pages 7-31) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 13+) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046 (Pages 2-5 and 32) 
Ultimate Six 1 
Ultimate Six 2 

CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT DICK 
Ultimate War 1 
Ultimate X-Men 027 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 1-10) 

CHI, LEE 
Ultimate Adventures 005-FB1 (Pages 14-17) 
Ultimate Adventures 005-FB2 (Page 19, panels 2, 4+ through Page 21) 
Ultimate Adventures 005-FB3 (Page 22, panel 2 through Page 23) 
Ultimate Adventures 005 
Ultimate Adventures 006 

CHI, MASTER KWI 
Ultimate Adventures 005-FB1 (Pages 14-17) 
Ultimate Adventures 005-FB2 (Page 19, panels 2, 4+ through Page 21) 
Ultimate Adventures 005-FB3 (Page 22, panel 2 through Page 23) 

COLOSSUS 
Ultimate X-Men 001 
Ultimate X-Men 002 
Ultimate X-Men 003 
Ultimate X-Men 004 
Ultimate X-Men 005 
Ultimate X-Men 006 
Ultimate X-Men One-Half 
Ultimate X-Men 007 
Ultimate X-Men 008 
Ultimate X-Men 009 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate X-Men 015 
Ultimate X-Men 016 
Ultimate X-Men 017 
Ultimate X-Men 018 
Ultimate X-Men 019 
Ultimate X-Men 020 
Ultimate X-Men 021 
Ultimate X-Men 024 
Ultimate War 2 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate X-Men 028 
Ultimate X-Men 029 
Ultimate X-Men 030 
Ultimate X-Men 031 
Ultimate X-Men 032 
Ultimate Spider-Man 044 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 
Ultimate X-Men 037 
Ultimate X-Men 038 
Ultimate X-Men 039 
Ultimate X-Men 040 
Ultimate X-Men 042 
Ultimate X-Men 043 
Ultimate X-Men 044 
Ultimate X-Men 045 
Ultimate X-Men 046 
Ultimate X-Men 047 

CONNORS, TIMMY 
Ultimate Spider-Man 060 

CROWLEY, SHIELD AGENT 
Ultimate X-Men 009 

CRUSHER HOGAN 
Ultimate Spider-Man 003 
Ultimate Spider-Man 004 

CURRIE, LAUCHLIN 
Ultimates 010-FB2 (Pages 6-7) 

CYCLOPS/SCOTT SUMMERS 
Ultimate X-Men 001 
Ultimate X-Men 002 
Ultimate X-Men 003 
Ultimate X-Men 004 
Ultimate X-Men 005 
Ultimate X-Men 006 
Ultimate X-Men One-Half 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 011 
Ultimate X-Men 007 
Ultimate X-Men 008 
Ultimate X-Men 009 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate X-Men 015 
Ultimate X-Men 016 
Ultimate X-Men 017 
Ultimate X-Men 018 
Ultimate X-Men 019 
Ultimate X-Men 020 
Ultimate X-Men 021 
Ultimate X-Men 022 
Ultimate X-Men 023 
Ultimate X-Men 024 
Ultimate X-Men 029-FB1 (Pages 2-7) 
Ultimate X-Men 029-FB2 (Pages 10-11) 
Ultimate X-Men 029-FB3 (Page 14 panels 1-3) 
Ultimate X-Men 029-FB4 (Page 14 panel 4 through Page 16) 
Ultimate X-Men 029 
Ultimate X-Men 030 
Ultimate X-Men 032 
Ultimate Spider-Man 044 
Ultimate X-Men 033 
Ultimate X-Men 037 
Ultimate X-Men 038 
Ultimate X-Men 039 
Ultimate X-Men 040 
Ultimate X-Men 042 
Ultimate X-Men 043 
Ultimate X-Men 044 
Ultimate X-Men 046 
Ultimate X-Men 047 

DANNER, RUTH 
Ultimate Adventures 005-FB1 (Pages 14-17) 
Ultimate Adventures 005-FB3 (Page 22, panel 2 through Page 23) 
Ultimate Adventures 003 
Ultimate Adventures 004 
Ultimate Adventures 006 

DAREDEVIL/MATT MURDOCK 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra 1 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra 2 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra 3 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra 4 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 007 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 008 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 1-28) 
Ultimate X-Men 036 
Ultimate X-Men 037 

DAZZLER 
Ultimate X-Men 042 
Ultimate X-Men 044 
Ultimate X-Men 045 

DE WOLFE, CAPTAIN JEAN 
Ultimate Spider-Man 060 

DETONATOR/RICKY GIBSON 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB02 (Pages 6-9) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB05 (Pages 14-15) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB10 (Page 21, panel 3) 

DEWOLFF, CAPTAIN JEAN 
Ultimate Spider-Man 031 
Ultimate Spider-Man 032 

DOCTOR BRANKIN 
Ultimate War 1 

DOCTOR CORNELIUS 
Ultimate X-Men 007 
Ultimate X-Men 009 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 

DOCTOR DOOM 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 002 (Pages 1-14) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 002 (Pages 15+) 

DOCTOR KNOX 
Ultimate X-Men 027 

DOCTOR OCTOPUS 
Ultimate Spider-Man 002 
Ultimate Spider-Man 003 
Ultimate Spider-Man 014 
Ultimate Spider-Man 015 
Ultimate Spider-Man 016 
Ultimate Spider-Man 017 
Ultimate Spider-Man 018 
Ultimate Spider-Man 019 
Ultimate Spider-Man 020 (Pages 1-18) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046-FB1 (Page 6) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 020 (Pages 19+) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 1-12) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046 (Pages 7+) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 13+) 
Ultimate Six 1 
Ultimate Six 2 
Ultimate Six 4 
Ultimate Six 5 
Ultimate Six 6 
Ultimate Six 7 
Ultimate Spider-Man 054 
Ultimate Spider-Man 056 
Ultimate Spider-Man 057 
Ultimate Spider-Man 058 
Ultimate Spider-Man 059 (Pages 1-18) 

DOCTOR SKRTIC 
Ultimate Spider-Man 017 
Ultimate Spider-Man 019 

DOCTOR STRANGE 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 012-FB (Pages 2 through 3) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 013 

DUGAN, SHIELD AGENT 
Ultimate X-Men 039 
Ultimate X-Men 043 
Ultimate X-Men 044 
Ultimate X-Men 045 

ELECTRO 
Ultimate Spider-Man 010 
Ultimate Spider-Man 011 
Ultimate Spider-Man 012 
Ultimate Six 0 
Ultimate Six 1 
Ultimate Six 2 
Ultimate Six 4 
Ultimate Six 5 
Ultimate Six 6 
Ultimate Six 7 

ELEKTRA 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra 1 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra 2 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra 3 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra 4 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 1-28) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 051 
Ultimate Spider-Man 052 
Ultimate Spider-Man 053 

ELIZABETH, SHANNON 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 1 through 13) 

ESHELMAN, BOAZ 
Ultimate X-Men 001 

FANCY DAN 
Ultimate Spider-Man 009 
Ultimate Spider-Man 010 
Ultimate Spider-Man 011 
Ultimate Spider-Man 012 
Ultimate Spider-Man 047 
Ultimate Spider-Man 049 

FATHER JOE 
Ultimate Adventures 005-FB1 (Pages 14-17) 
Ultimate Adventures 001 
Ultimate Adventures 003 
Ultimate Adventures 006 

FIMMEL, TRAVIS 
Ultimate X-Men 030 

FISK, VANESSA 
Ultimate Spider-Man 053 

FORGE 
Ultimate X-Men 027 
Ultimate X-Men 030 

FROST, EMMA 
Ultimate X-Men 042 
Ultimate X-Men 043 
Ultimate X-Men 044 
Ultimate X-Men 045 
Ultimate X-Men 046 

FURY, NICK 
Ultimate X-Men 011-FB (Pages 1 through 9) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 005 
Ultimate X-Men 009 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 014 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046-FB1 (Page 6) 
Ultimates 002 
Ultimates 003 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 1 through 13) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 024 
Ultimate Spider-Man 026 
Ultimate Spider-Man 027 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 14+) 
Ultimates 005 
Ultimates 006 
Ultimates 006 (Pages 1-5) 
Ultimates 006 (Pages 6+) 
Ultimates 007 
Ultimates 008 
Ultimates 009 
Ultimates 010 
Ultimates 011 
Ultimates 012 
Ultimates 013 
Ultimate War 1 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate Spider-Man 039 
Ultimate X-Men 027 
Ultimate X-Men 028 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 1-10) 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 
Ultimate X-Men 038 
Ultimate Six 1 
Ultimate Six 2 
Ultimate Six 3 
Ultimate Six 4 
Ultimate Six 6 
Ultimate Six 7 
Ultimate X-Men 043 
Ultimate X-Men 044 
Ultimate X-Men 045 
Ultimate Spider-Man 059 (Pages 1-18) 
Ultimate X-Men 047 

GAMBIT 
Ultimate X-Men 013 
Ultimate X-Men 014 
Ultimate X-Men 044 
Ultimate X-Men 045 

GELDOFF 
Ultimate Spider-Man 040 
Ultimate Spider-Man 041 
Ultimate Spider-Man 042 
Ultimate Spider-Man 043 
Ultimate Spider-Man 044 

GIANT MAN 
See Ant-Man 

GREEN GOBLIN/NORMAN OSBORN 
Ultimate Spider-Man 001 
Ultimate Spider-Man 002 
Ultimate Spider-Man 003 
Ultimate Spider-Man 004 
Ultimate Spider-Man 005 
Ultimate Spider-Man 006 
Ultimate Spider-Man 007 
Ultimate Spider-Man 022 
Ultimate Spider-Man 023 
Ultimate Spider-Man 024 
Ultimate Spider-Man 025 
Ultimate Spider-Man 026 
Ultimate Spider-Man 027 
Ultimate Six 1 
Ultimate Six 2 
Ultimate Six 4 
Ultimate Six 5 
Ultimate Six 6 
Ultimate Six 7 

GREENWOOD, BRUCE 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 007 

GREY, PROFESSOR 
Ultimate War 2 

HALE, TRACI 
Ultimate Spider-Man 020 (Pages 1-18) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 020 (Pages 19+) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 1-12) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046 (Pages 7+) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 13+) 

HAMMER, JUSTIN 
Ultimate Spider-Man 017 
Ultimate Spider-Man 018 
Ultimate Spider-Man 019 
Ultimate Spider-Man 020 (Pages 1-18) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 020 (Pages 19+) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 1-12) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046-FB2 (Pages 7-31) 

HAMMERHEAD 
Ultimate X-Men 013 
Ultimate X-Men 014 

HARD-DRIVE 
Ultimate War 1 

HAVOK 
Ultimate X-Men 045 
Ultimate X-Men 046 

HAWKEYE 
Ultimates 008 
Ultimates 009 
Ultimates 011 
Ultimates 012 
Ultimates 013 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate Six 1 
Ultimate Six 2 
Ultimate Six 3 
Ultimate Six 4 
Ultimate Six 6 

HAWK-OWL/JACK DANNER 
Ultimate Adventures 005-FB1 (Pages 14-17) 
Ultimate Adventures 005-FB2 (Page 19, panels 2, 4+ through Page 21) 
Ultimate Adventures 005-FB3 (Page 22, panel 2 through Page 23) 
Ultimate Adventures 001 
Ultimate Adventures 002 
Ultimate Adventures 003 
Ultimate Adventures 004 
Ultimate Adventures 005 
Ultimate Adventures 006 

HERBIE 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 31+) 

HERR KLEISER 
Ultimates 010-FB1 (Pages 2-5) 
Ultimates 010 
Ultimates 011 
Ultimates 012 
Ultimates 013 

HHVX 
Ultimate X-Men 022 

HULK 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 002 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 003 
Ultimates 002 
Ultimates 003 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 1 through 13) 
Ultimates 005 
Ultimates 007 
Ultimates 009 
Ultimates 012 
Ultimates 013 
Ultimate War 2 

HUMAN TORCH/JOHNNY STORM 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 001 (Pages 18+) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 002 (Pages 1-14) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 002 (Pages 15+) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 003 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 004 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 006 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 31+) 

ICEMAN/BOBBY DRAKE 
Ultimate X-Men 001 
Ultimate X-Men 002 
Ultimate X-Men 003 
Ultimate X-Men 004 
Ultimate X-Men 005 
Ultimate X-Men 006 
Ultimate X-Men One-Half 
Ultimate X-Men 008 
Ultimate X-Men 009 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate X-Men 015 
Ultimate X-Men 016 
Ultimate X-Men 017 
Ultimate X-Men 018 
Ultimate X-Men 019 
Ultimate X-Men 020 
Ultimate X-Men 023 
Ultimate X-Men 024 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate X-Men 028 
Ultimate X-Men 029 
Ultimate X-Men 030 
Ultimate X-Men 031 
Ultimate X-Men 032 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 
Ultimate X-Men 037 
Ultimate X-Men 038 
Ultimate X-Men 039 
Ultimate X-Men 040 
Ultimate X-Men 042 
Ultimate X-Men 043 
Ultimate X-Men 045 
Ultimate X-Men 046 
Ultimate X-Men 047 

INVISIBLE GIRL/SUE STORM 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 001 (Pages 18+) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 002 (Pages 1-14) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 002 (Pages 15+) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 003 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 004 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 006 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 31+) 

IRON FIST/DANNY RAND 
Ultimate Spider-Man One-Half 

IRON MAN/TONY STARK 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 005-FB (Pages 2-3, 6, 9, 13-14, 16-19) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 004 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 005 
Ultimates 001 (Page 24+) 
Ultimates 002 
Ultimates 003 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 1 through 13) 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 14+) 
Ultimates 005 
Ultimates 006 
Ultimates 006 (Pages 1-5) 
Ultimate Adventures 003 
Ultimate Adventures 004 
Ultimates 006 (Pages 6+) 
Ultimates 007 
Ultimates 008 
Ultimates 009 
Ultimates 010 
Ultimates 011 
Ultimates 012 
Ultimates 013 
Ultimate Spider-Man 028 
Ultimate War 1 
Ultimate War 2 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 1-10) 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 
Ultimate Six 0 
Ultimate Six 1 
Ultimate Six 2 
Ultimate Six 3 
Ultimate Six 3 
Ultimate Six 4 
Ultimate Six 5 
Ultimate Six 6 
Ultimate Six 7 

JACKSON, DRAKE 
Ultimate Adventures 003 
Ultimate Adventures 004 

JAMESON, J JONAH 
Ultimate Spider-Man 006 
Ultimate Spider-Man 008 
Ultimate Spider-Man 012 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 002 
Ultimate Spider-Man 015 
Ultimate Spider-Man 016 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 014 
Ultimate Spider-Man 020 (Pages 1-18) 
Ultimate Spider-Man One-Half 
Ultimate Spider-Man 029 
Ultimate Spider-Man 031 
Ultimate Spider-Man 047 
Ultimate Spider-Man 048 
Ultimate Spider-Man 049 

JARVIS 
Ultimates 002 
Ultimates 003 
Ultimates 006 
Ultimates 006 (Pages 6+) 

JONES, DEBBIE 
Ultimate Adventures 003 
Ultimate Adventures 004 

JUBILEE 
Ultimate X-Men 007 

JUGGERNAUT 
Ultimate X-Men 008 
Ultimate X-Men 009 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate War 1 

KARMA 
Ultimate X-Men 042 
Ultimate X-Men 044 
Ultimate X-Men 045 

KING, LARRY 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 1 through 13) 

KINGPIN 
Ultimate Spider-Man 009 
Ultimate Spider-Man 010 
Ultimate Spider-Man 011 
Ultimate Spider-Man 012 
Ultimate Spider-Man 047 
Ultimate Spider-Man 048 
Ultimate Spider-Man 049 
Ultimate Spider-Man 052 
Ultimate Spider-Man 053 

KITTY PRYDE 
Ultimate X-Men 021 
Ultimate X-Men 022 
Ultimate X-Men 023 
Ultimate X-Men 024 
Ultimate X-Men 037 
Ultimate X-Men 038 

KONG 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 26-28) 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 31+) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 031 
Ultimate Spider-Man 034 
Ultimate Spider-Man 040 
Ultimate Spider-Man 048 
Ultimate Spider-Man 051 
Ultimate Spider-Man 054 
Ultimate Spider-Man 055 
Ultimate Spider-Man 059 (Pages 19-20) 

KRAVEN 
Ultimate Spider-Man 016 
Ultimate Spider-Man 017 
Ultimate Spider-Man 019 
Ultimate Spider-Man 020 (Pages 1-18) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 020 (Pages 19+) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 1-12) 
Ultimate Six 1 
Ultimate Six 2 
Ultimate Six 4 
Ultimate Six 5 
Ultimate Six 6 
Ultimate Six 7 

LIZARD 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 010-FB (Pages 6 through 10) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 010 
Ultimate Spider-Man 039 
Ultimate Spider-Man 060 

MACTAGGERT, MOIRA 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB01 (Pages 2-5) 
Ultimate X-Men 016 
Ultimate X-Men 017 
Ultimate X-Men 018 
Ultimate X-Men 019 
Ultimate War 2 
Ultimate X-Men 027 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 

MAGNETO 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB01 (Pages 2-5) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB02 (Pages 6-9) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB03 (Pages 10-11) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB04 (Pages 12-13) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB05 (Pages 14-15) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB06 (Pages 16-17) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB07 (Pages 18-20) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB08 (Page 21, panel 1) 
Ultimate X-Men 001 
Ultimate X-Men 003-FB (Page 7, panel 4) 
Ultimate X-Men 003 
Ultimate X-Men 004 
Ultimate X-Men 005 
Ultimate X-Men 006 
Ultimate X-Men 015 
Ultimate X-Men 020 
Ultimate X-Men 022 
Ultimate X-Men 025 
Ultimate War 1 
Ultimate War 2 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate X-Men 026 (Pages 22-24) 
Ultimate X-Men 028 
Ultimate X-Men 030 
Ultimate X-Men 031 
Ultimate X-Men 032 
Ultimate X-Men 033 

MAGNETO'S COMPUTER 
Ultimate X-Men 024 

MAN-THING 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 010 

MARVEL GIRL/JEAN GREY 
Ultimate X-Men 001 
Ultimate X-Men 002 
Ultimate X-Men 003 
Ultimate X-Men 004 
Ultimate X-Men 005 
Ultimate X-Men 006 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 011 
Ultimate X-Men 007 
Ultimate X-Men 008 
Ultimate X-Men 009 
Ultimate X-Men 009 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate X-Men 015 
Ultimate X-Men 016 
Ultimate X-Men 017 
Ultimate X-Men 018 
Ultimate X-Men 019 
Ultimate X-Men 020 
Ultimate X-Men 021 
Ultimate X-Men 022 
Ultimate X-Men 023 
Ultimate X-Men 024 
Ultimate X-Men 025 
Ultimate War 2 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate X-Men 028 
Ultimate X-Men 029 
Ultimate X-Men 030 
Ultimate X-Men 031 
Ultimate X-Men 032 
Ultimate Spider-Man 042 
Ultimate Spider-Man 043 
Ultimate Spider-Man 044 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 
Ultimate X-Men 037 
Ultimate X-Men 038 
Ultimate X-Men 039 
Ultimate X-Men 040 
Ultimate X-Men 042 
Ultimate X-Men 043 
Ultimate X-Men 044 
Ultimate X-Men 045 
Ultimate X-Men 046 
Ultimate X-Men 047 

MASTER STONE 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra 1 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra 2 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra 3 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra 4 

MASTERMIND 
Ultimate X-Men 003 
Ultimate X-Men 004 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 015 
Ultimate X-Men 027 

MCGUIRE, TOBEY 
Ultimate Spider-Man 054 
Ultimate Spider-Man 056 
Ultimate Spider-Man 057 

MISS KLEIN 
Ultimate X-Men 030 

MISTER BIG 
Ultimate Spider-Man 009 
Ultimate Spider-Man 010 

MISTER FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 001 (Pages 1-2) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 001 (Pages 3-17) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 001 (Pages 18+) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 002 (Pages 1-14) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 002 (Pages 15+) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 003 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 004 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 005 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 006 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 31+) 

MISTER SEVILLE 
Ultimate X-Men 025 

MISTER SINISTER 
Ultimate X-Men 046 
Ultimate X-Men 047 

MOLE MAN 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 002 (Pages 1-14) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 003 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 004 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 006 

MONTANA 
Ultimate Spider-Man 009 
Ultimate Spider-Man 010 
Ultimate Spider-Man 011 
Ultimate Spider-Man 012 
Ultimate Spider-Man 047 
Ultimate Spider-Man 049 

MS. WILLOW 
Ultimate Adventures 003 
Ultimate Adventures 004 
Ultimate Adventures 005 
Ultimate Adventures 006 

MULTIPLE MAN 
Ultimate X-Men 027 

MYSTERIO 
Ultimate Spider-Man 055 
Ultimate Spider-Man 056 

NAGRA, DETECTIVE 
Ultimate X-Men 047 

NELSON, FOGGY 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra 1 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra 2 
Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra 4 

NIGHTCRAWLER 
Ultimate X-Men 007 
Ultimate X-Men 008 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate X-Men 027 
Ultimate X-Men 029 
Ultimate X-Men 030 
Ultimate X-Men 031 
Ultimate X-Men 032 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 
Ultimate X-Men 037 
Ultimate X-Men 038 
Ultimate X-Men 039 
Ultimate X-Men 040 
Ultimate X-Men 042 
Ultimate X-Men 043 
Ultimate X-Men 045 
Ultimate X-Men 046 
Ultimate X-Men 047 

NORTHSTAR 
Ultimate X-Men 046 
Ultimate X-Men 047 

OCTAVIUS, ROSALITA 
Ultimate Spider-Man 056 

OCTAVIUS, ROSELITA 
Ultimate Spider-Man 055 

ORB-WEAVER 
Ultimate X-Men 022 

OSBORN, HARRY 
Ultimate Spider-Man 001 
Ultimate Spider-Man 002 
Ultimate Spider-Man 003 
Ultimate Spider-Man 004 
Ultimate Spider-Man 005 
Ultimate Spider-Man 006 
Ultimate Spider-Man 007 
Ultimate Spider-Man 022 
Ultimate Spider-Man 023 
Ultimate Spider-Man 024 
Ultimate Spider-Man 025 
Ultimate Spider-Man 026 
Ultimate Spider-Man 027 
Ultimate Six 6 
Ultimate Six 7 

OX 
Ultimate Spider-Man 009 
Ultimate Spider-Man 010 
Ultimate Spider-Man 011 
Ultimate Spider-Man 012 
Ultimate Spider-Man 047 
Ultimate Spider-Man 049 

PARKER, AUNT MAY 
Ultimate Spider-Man 033-FB (Page 8, panel 4 through Page 11) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 001 
Ultimate Spider-Man 002 
Ultimate Spider-Man 003 
Ultimate Spider-Man 004 
Ultimate Spider-Man 005 
Ultimate Spider-Man 006 
Ultimate Spider-Man 007 
Ultimate Spider-Man 008 
Ultimate Spider-Man 010 
Ultimate Spider-Man 013 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 011 
Ultimate Spider-Man 017 
Ultimate Spider-Man 018 
Ultimate Spider-Man 019 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 13+) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 023 
Ultimate Spider-Man 024 
Ultimate Spider-Man 028 
Ultimate Spider-Man 029 
Ultimate Spider-Man 030 
Ultimate Spider-Man 031 
Ultimate Spider-Man 032 
Ultimate Spider-Man 045-FB (Pages 9-10) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 033 
Ultimate Spider-Man 043 
Ultimate Spider-Man 044 
Ultimate Spider-Man 045 
Ultimate Six 3 
Ultimate Six 4 
Ultimate Six 5 
Ultimate Six 7 
Ultimate Spider-Man 048 
Ultimate Spider-Man 050 
Ultimate Spider-Man 052 
Ultimate Spider-Man 053 
Ultimate Spider-Man 054 
Ultimate Spider-Man 058 

PARKER, MARY 
Ultimate Spider-Man 033-FB (Page 8, panel 4 through Page 11) 

PARKER, RICHARD 
Ultimate Spider-Man 033-FB (Page 8, panel 4 through Page 11) 

PARKER, UNCLE BEN 
Ultimate Spider-Man 033-FB (Page 8, panel 4 through Page 11) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 001 
Ultimate Spider-Man 002 
Ultimate Spider-Man 003 
Ultimate Spider-Man 004 
Ultimate Spider-Man 005 

PHOENIX 
Ultimate X-Men 025 

PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. 
Ultimate Six 3 
Ultimate Six 4 
Ultimate Six 5 
Ultimate X-Men 042 
Ultimate X-Men 043 

PRINCIPAL ZEVAD 
Ultimate Spider-Man 043 

PRINZE JR., FREDDIE 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 14+) 
Ultimates 005 

PROFESSOR X/CHARLES XAVIER 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB01 (Pages 2-5) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB02 (Pages 6-9) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB03 (Pages 10-11) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB04 (Pages 12-13) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB06 (Pages 16-17) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB07 (Pages 18-20) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB09 (Page 21, panel 2) 
Ultimate X-Men 001 
Ultimate X-Men 003 
Ultimate X-Men 004 
Ultimate X-Men 005 
Ultimate X-Men 006 
Ultimate X-Men 007 
Ultimate X-Men 008 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate X-Men 014 
Ultimate X-Men 015 
Ultimate X-Men 017 
Ultimate X-Men 018 
Ultimate X-Men 019 
Ultimate X-Men 020 
Ultimate X-Men 021 
Ultimate X-Men 022 
Ultimate X-Men 024 
Ultimate X-Men 025 
Ultimate War 2 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate X-Men 028 
Ultimate X-Men 029 
Ultimate X-Men 030 
Ultimate X-Men 031 
Ultimate X-Men 032 
Ultimate Spider-Man 043 
Ultimate Spider-Man 044 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 
Ultimate X-Men 033 
Ultimate X-Men 038 
Ultimate X-Men 039 
Ultimate X-Men 040 
Ultimate X-Men 042 
Ultimate X-Men 043 
Ultimate X-Men 045 
Ultimate X-Men 046 
Ultimate X-Men 047 

PROSIMIAN 
Ultimate X-Men 022 
Ultimate X-Men 023 
Ultimate X-Men 024 
Ultimate X-Men 025 

PROTEUS/DAVID XAVIER 
Ultimate X-Men 016 
Ultimate X-Men 017 
Ultimate X-Men 018 
Ultimate X-Men 019 

PRYDE, KITTY 
Ultimate X-Men 029-FB1 (Pages 2-7) 
Ultimate War 2 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate X-Men 028 
Ultimate X-Men 029 
Ultimate X-Men 030 
Ultimate X-Men 031 
Ultimate Spider-Man 042 
Ultimate Spider-Man 043 
Ultimate Spider-Man 044 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 
Ultimate X-Men 039 
Ultimate X-Men 040 
Ultimate X-Men 042 
Ultimate X-Men 043 
Ultimate X-Men 044 
Ultimate X-Men 045 
Ultimate X-Men 046 
Ultimate X-Men 047 

PUNISHER/FRANK CASTLE 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 006 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 007 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 008 

QUARTERMAIN, SHIELD AGENT CLAY 
Ultimate Spider-Man 026 
Ultimate Spider-Man 027 
Ultimate Six 3 
Ultimate Six 4 
Ultimate Six 5 
Ultimate Six 7 

QUICKSILVER/PIETRO LEHNSHEER 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB03 (Pages 10-11) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB07 (Pages 18-20) 
Ultimate X-Men 001 
Ultimate X-Men 002 
Ultimate X-Men 003 
Ultimate X-Men 004 
Ultimate X-Men 005 
Ultimate X-Men 006 
Ultimate X-Men One-Half 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate X-Men 015 
Ultimates 008 
Ultimates 013 
Ultimate X-Men 022 
Ultimate War 1 
Ultimate War 2 

RALPH (THE OWL) 
Ultimate Adventures 003 
Ultimate Adventures 004 
Ultimate Adventures 005 
Ultimate Adventures 006 

RAMI, SAM 
Ultimate Spider-Man 054 
Ultimate Spider-Man 055 
Ultimate Spider-Man 056 
Ultimate Spider-Man 057 

RASPUTIN, ILYANA 
Ultimate X-Men 018 

RHINO 
Ultimate Spider-Man 028 

RHODES, JIM 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 004 

RICHARDS, ENID 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 001 (Pages 3-17) 

RICHARDS, GARY 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 001 (Pages 1-2) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 001 (Pages 3-17) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 001 (Pages 18+) 

RICHARDS, MRS. 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 001 (Pages 1-2) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 001 (Pages 3-17) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 001 (Pages 18+) 

RIGGS, SHIELD AGENT 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046-FB1 (Page 6) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046-FB2 (Pages 7-31) 

ROBERTSON, JOE 
Ultimate Spider-Man 006 
Ultimate Spider-Man 008 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 002 
Ultimate Spider-Man 015 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 014 
Ultimate Spider-Man 020 (Pages 1-18) 
Ultimate Spider-Man One-Half 
Ultimate Spider-Man 029 
Ultimate Spider-Man 031 
Ultimate Spider-Man 047 
Ultimate Spider-Man 048 
Ultimate Spider-Man 051 

ROGUE 
Ultimate X-Men 007 
Ultimate X-Men 008 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate War 1 
Ultimate X-Men 031 
Ultimate X-Men 032 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 
Ultimate X-Men 038 
Ultimate X-Men 040 
Ultimate X-Men 042 
Ultimate X-Men 043 
Ultimate X-Men 044 
Ultimate X-Men 045 
Ultimate X-Men 046 
Ultimate X-Men 047 

ROSS, BETTY 
Ultimates 003 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 1 through 13) 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 14+) 
Ultimates 005 
Ultimates 006 
Ultimates 006 (Pages 1-5) 
Ultimates 007 
Ultimates 009 

ROSS, GENERAL THUNDERBOLT 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 002 (Pages 1-14) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 003 
Ultimate X-Men 009 
Ultimate X-Men 011 

RUMSFIELD, DONALD 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 1-10) 

SABRETOOTH 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 001 
Ultimate X-Men 008 
Ultimate X-Men 009 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate X-Men 026 (Pages 22-24) 
Ultimate X-Men 027 
Ultimate X-Men 030 

SALUKI 
Ultimate X-Men 022 

SANDMAN 
Ultimate Spider-Man 017 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046-FB2 (Pages 7-31) 
Ultimate Six 1 
Ultimate Six 2 
Ultimate Six 4 
Ultimate Six 5 
Ultimate Six 6 
Ultimate Six 7 

SCARLET WITCH/WANDA LEHNSHEER 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB03 (Pages 10-11) 
Ultimate X-Men 026-FB07 (Pages 18-20) 
Ultimate X-Men 001 
Ultimate X-Men 002 
Ultimate X-Men 003 
Ultimate X-Men 004 
Ultimate X-Men 005 
Ultimate X-Men 006 
Ultimate X-Men One-Half 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate X-Men 015 
Ultimates 008 
Ultimates 013 
Ultimate X-Men 022 
Ultimate War 1 
Ultimate War 2 

SEBASTIAN SHAW 
Ultimate X-Men 024 
Ultimate X-Men 025 

SENATOR ANDREW BORDER TURK 
Ultimate X-Men 023 
Ultimate X-Men 024 

SHANG-CHI 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 015 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 016 

SISTER MARY 
Ultimate Adventures 001 

SPIDER-MAN IMPOSTER 
Ultimate Spider-Man 029 
Ultimate Spider-Man 030 
Ultimate Spider-Man 031 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER PARKER 
Ultimate Spider-Man 033-FB (Page 8, panel 4 through Page 11) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 001 
Ultimate Spider-Man 002 
Ultimate Spider-Man 003 
Ultimate Spider-Man 004 
Ultimate Spider-Man 005 
Ultimate Spider-Man 006 
Ultimate Spider-Man 007 
Ultimate Spider-Man 008 
Ultimate Spider-Man 009 
Ultimate Spider-Man 010 
Ultimate Spider-Man 011 
Ultimate Spider-Man 012 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 001 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 002 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 003 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 004 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 005 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 006 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 007 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 008 
Ultimate Spider-Man 013 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 1-28) 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 26-28) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 014 
Ultimate Spider-Man 015 
Ultimate Spider-Man 016 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 010 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 011 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 012 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 013 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 014 
Ultimate Spider-Man 017 
Ultimate Spider-Man 018 
Ultimate Spider-Man 019 
Ultimate Spider-Man 020 (Pages 1-18) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046-FB1 (Page 6) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 020 (Pages 19+) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 1-12) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046-FB2 (Pages 7-31) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 13+) 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 29-30) 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 31+) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 015 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 016 
Ultimate Spider-Man One-Half 
Ultimate Spider-Man 022 
Ultimate Spider-Man 023 
Ultimate Spider-Man 024 
Ultimate Spider-Man 025 
Ultimate Spider-Man 026 
Ultimate Spider-Man 027 
Ultimate Spider-Man 028 
Ultimate Spider-Man 029 
Ultimate Spider-Man 030 
Ultimate Spider-Man 031 
Ultimate Spider-Man 032 
Ultimate Spider-Man 045-FB (Pages 9-10) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 033 
Ultimate Spider-Man 034 
Ultimate Spider-Man 035 
Ultimate Spider-Man 036 
Ultimate Spider-Man 037 
Ultimate Spider-Man 038 
Ultimate Spider-Man 039 
Ultimate Spider-Man 040 
Ultimate Spider-Man 041 
Ultimate Spider-Man 042 
Ultimate Spider-Man 043 
Ultimate Spider-Man 044 
Ultimate Spider-Man 045 
Ultimate X-Men 034 
Ultimate X-Men 035 
Ultimate X-Men 036 
Ultimate X-Men 037 
Ultimate Six 3 
Ultimate Six 4 
Ultimate Six 5 
Ultimate Six 6 
Ultimate Six 7 
Ultimate Spider-Man 047 
Ultimate Spider-Man 048 
Ultimate Spider-Man 049 
Ultimate Spider-Man 050 
Ultimate Spider-Man 051 
Ultimate Spider-Man 052 
Ultimate Spider-Man 053 
Ultimate Spider-Man 054 
Ultimate Spider-Man 055 
Ultimate Spider-Man 056 
Ultimate Spider-Man 057 
Ultimate Spider-Man 058 
Ultimate Spider-Man 059 (Pages 1-18) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 060 
Ultimate Spider-Man 059 (Pages 19-20) 

STACY, CAPTAIN 
Ultimate Spider-Man 015 
Ultimate Spider-Man 016 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 011 
Ultimate Spider-Man 019 
Ultimate Spider-Man 023 
Ultimate Spider-Man 029 
Ultimate Spider-Man 031 

STACY, GWEN 
Ultimate Spider-Man 014 
Ultimate Spider-Man 015 
Ultimate Spider-Man 016 
Ultimate Spider-Man 017 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 31+) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 022 
Ultimate Spider-Man 023 
Ultimate Spider-Man 028 
Ultimate Spider-Man 029 
Ultimate Spider-Man 031 
Ultimate Spider-Man 032 
Ultimate Spider-Man 033 
Ultimate Spider-Man 034 
Ultimate Spider-Man 036 
Ultimate Spider-Man 040 
Ultimate Spider-Man 041 
Ultimate Spider-Man 043 
Ultimate Spider-Man 044 
Ultimate Six 3 
Ultimate Spider-Man 048 
Ultimate Spider-Man 050 
Ultimate Spider-Man 051 
Ultimate Spider-Man 053 
Ultimate Spider-Man 054 
Ultimate Spider-Man 055 
Ultimate Spider-Man 056 
Ultimate Spider-Man 057 
Ultimate Spider-Man 058 
Ultimate Spider-Man 059 (Pages 1-18) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 059 (Pages 19-20) 

STARK, MORGAN 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 005-FB (Pages 2-3, 6, 9, 13-14, 16-19) 

STORM, PROFESSOR 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 001 (Pages 18+) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 002 (Pages 1-14) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 002 (Pages 15+) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 003 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 004 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 005 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 006 

STORM/ORORO MUNROE 
Ultimate X-Men 001 
Ultimate X-Men 002 
Ultimate X-Men 003 
Ultimate X-Men 004 
Ultimate X-Men 005 
Ultimate X-Men 006 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 011 
Ultimate X-Men 007 
Ultimate X-Men 008 
Ultimate X-Men 009 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate X-Men 014 
Ultimate X-Men 015 
Ultimate X-Men 016 
Ultimate X-Men 017 
Ultimate X-Men 018 
Ultimate X-Men 019 
Ultimate X-Men 020 
Ultimate X-Men 021 
Ultimate X-Men 023 
Ultimate X-Men 024 
Ultimate X-Men 025 
Ultimate War 2 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate X-Men 028 
Ultimate X-Men 029 
Ultimate X-Men 030 
Ultimate X-Men 031 
Ultimate X-Men 032 
Ultimate Spider-Man 042 
Ultimate Spider-Man 043 
Ultimate Spider-Man 044 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 
Ultimate X-Men 037 
Ultimate X-Men 039 
Ultimate X-Men 040 
Ultimate X-Men 042 
Ultimate X-Men 043 
Ultimate X-Men 044 
Ultimate X-Men 045 
Ultimate X-Men 046 
Ultimate X-Men 047 

SUMATRAN 
Ultimate X-Men 022 

TABIDI 
Ultimate Spider-Man 017 
Ultimate Spider-Man 019 
Ultimate Spider-Man 020 (Pages 1-18) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 1-12) 

TALBOT, GENERAL 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 005 

TARA 
Ultimate X-Men 034 
Ultimate X-Men 035 
Ultimate X-Men 036 
Ultimate X-Men 037 
Ultimate X-Men 038 
Ultimate X-Men 039 

THE PRINCIPAL/MORGAN JONES 
Ultimate Adventures 003 
Ultimate Adventures 004 
Ultimate Adventures 005 
Ultimate Adventures 006 

THING/BEN GRIMM 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 001 (Pages 3-17) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 002 (Pages 15+) 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 003 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 004 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 005 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 006 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 31+) 

THOMAS, STRIKE AGENT DAI 
Ultimate X-Men 016 
Ultimate X-Men 017 

THOMPSON, FLASH 
Ultimate Spider-Man 001 
Ultimate Spider-Man 002 
Ultimate Spider-Man 003 
Ultimate Spider-Man 004 
Ultimate Spider-Man 005 
Ultimate Spider-Man 006 
Ultimate Spider-Man 007 
Ultimate Spider-Man 008 
Ultimate Spider-Man 009 
Ultimate Spider-Man 011 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 001 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 004 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 26-28) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 014 
Ultimate Spider-Man 015 
Ultimate Spider-Man 017 
Ultimate Spider-Man 019 
Ultimate Spider-Man 022 
Ultimate Spider-Man 023 
Ultimate Spider-Man 034 
Ultimate Spider-Man 040 
Ultimate Spider-Man 041 
Ultimate Spider-Man 048 
Ultimate Spider-Man 051 
Ultimate Spider-Man 054 
Ultimate Spider-Man 055 
Ultimate Spider-Man 059 (Pages 19-20) 

THOR 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 1 through 13) 
Ultimates 005 
Ultimates 006 
Ultimate Adventures 003 
Ultimate Adventures 004 
Ultimates 006 (Pages 6+) 
Ultimates 007 
Ultimates 008 
Ultimates 009 
Ultimates 010 
Ultimates 011 
Ultimates 012 
Ultimates 013 
Ultimate War 1 
Ultimate War 2 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 
Ultimate Six 1 
Ultimate Six 2 
Ultimate Six 3 
Ultimate Six 4 
Ultimate Six 5 
Ultimate Six 7 

TOAD 
Ultimate X-Men 001 
Ultimate X-Men 002 
Ultimate X-Men 003 
Ultimate X-Men 004 
Ultimate X-Men 005 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate X-Men 015 
Ultimate War 1 

TOLLIVER, DANIEL 
Ultimate Adventures 005-FB1 (Pages 14-17) 
Ultimate Adventures 005-FB2 (Page 19, panels 2, 4+ through Page 21) 
Ultimate Adventures 005-FB3 (Page 22, panel 2 through Page 23) 
Ultimate Adventures 003 
Ultimate Adventures 004 
Ultimate Adventures 005 
Ultimate Adventures 006 

TRASK, BOLIVAR 
Ultimate X-Men 001 
Ultimate X-Men 015 

UNKNOWN GUY WITH SCAR ON FACE 
Ultimate X-Men 043 

UNKNOWN MUTANT 
Ultimate X-Men 041 

UNUS 
Ultimate War 3 

URICH, BEN 
Ultimate Spider-Man 006 
Ultimate Spider-Man 008 
Ultimate Spider-Man 012 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 002 
Ultimate Spider-Man 015 
Ultimate Spider-Man 016 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 014 
Ultimate Spider-Man 017 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 1-12) 
Ultimate Spider-Man One-Half 
Ultimate Spider-Man 029 
Ultimate Spider-Man 031 
Ultimate Spider-Man 043 
Ultimate Spider-Man 047 
Ultimate Spider-Man 048 

VANISHER 
Ultimate War 1 

VENOM/EDDIE BROCK JR. 
Ultimate Spider-Man 033-FB (Page 8, panel 4 through Page 11) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 017 
Ultimate Spider-Man 033 
Ultimate Spider-Man 034 
Ultimate Spider-Man 035 
Ultimate Spider-Man 036 
Ultimate Spider-Man 037 
Ultimate Spider-Man 038 

WALTERS, BARBARA 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 1-10) 

WASP/JANET VAN DYNE 
Ultimates 002 
Ultimates 003 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 1 through 13) 
Ultimates 004 (Pages 14+) 
Ultimates 005 
Ultimates 006 
Ultimates 006 (Pages 1-5) 
Ultimate Adventures 003 
Ultimate Adventures 004 
Ultimates 006 (Pages 6+) 
Ultimates 007 
Ultimates 009 
Ultimates 010 
Ultimates 011 
Ultimates 012 
Ultimates 013 
Ultimate War 1 
Ultimate War 2 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate Spider-Man 031 
Ultimate Six 1 
Ultimate Six 2 
Ultimate Six 3 
Ultimate Six 5 
Ultimate Six 6 
Ultimate Six 7 

WATSON, CRAIG 
Ultimate Spider-Man 050 
Ultimate Spider-Man 051 
Ultimate Spider-Man 053 

WATSON, MARY 
Ultimate Spider-Man 052 
Ultimate Spider-Man 053 

WATSON, MARY JANE 
Ultimate Spider-Man 001 
Ultimate Spider-Man 002 
Ultimate Spider-Man 003 
Ultimate Spider-Man 004 
Ultimate Spider-Man 005 
Ultimate Spider-Man 006 
Ultimate Spider-Man 007 
Ultimate Spider-Man 008 
Ultimate Spider-Man 009 
Ultimate Spider-Man 010 
Ultimate Spider-Man 011 
Ultimate Spider-Man 012 
Ultimate Spider-Man 013 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 1-28) 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 26-28) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 014 
Ultimate Spider-Man 015 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 011 
Ultimate Spider-Man 018 
Ultimate Spider-Man 020 (Pages 1-18) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 1-12) 
Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special (Pages 31+) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 015 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 016 
Ultimate Spider-Man 022 
Ultimate Spider-Man 023 
Ultimate Spider-Man 024 
Ultimate Spider-Man 025 
Ultimate Spider-Man 026 
Ultimate Spider-Man 027 
Ultimate Spider-Man 028 
Ultimate Spider-Man 029 
Ultimate Spider-Man 030 
Ultimate Spider-Man 031 
Ultimate Spider-Man 034 
Ultimate Spider-Man 035 
Ultimate Spider-Man 037 
Ultimate Spider-Man 040 
Ultimate Spider-Man 041 
Ultimate Spider-Man 043 
Ultimate X-Men 034 
Ultimate Six 3 
Ultimate Six 5 
Ultimate Spider-Man 047 
Ultimate Spider-Man 048 
Ultimate Spider-Man 050 
Ultimate Spider-Man 051 
Ultimate Spider-Man 053 
Ultimate Spider-Man 055 
Ultimate Spider-Man 056 
Ultimate Spider-Man 059 (Pages 1-18) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 059 (Pages 19-20) 

WATSON, MRS. 
Ultimate Spider-Man 043 

WOLVERINE/LOGAN 
Ultimate X-Men 011-FB (Pages 1 through 9) 
Ultimate X-Men 001 
Ultimate X-Men 003-FB (Page 7, panel 4) 
Ultimate X-Men 002 
Ultimate X-Men 003 
Ultimate X-Men 005 
Ultimate X-Men 006 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 001 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 011 
Ultimate X-Men 007 
Ultimate X-Men 008 
Ultimate X-Men 009 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate X-Men 015 
Ultimate X-Men 016 
Ultimate X-Men 017 
Ultimate X-Men 018 
Ultimate X-Men 019 
Ultimate X-Men 020 
Ultimate X-Men 021 
Ultimate X-Men 023 
Ultimate X-Men 024 
Ultimate X-Men 029-FB1 (Pages 2-7) 
Ultimate War 2 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate X-Men 028 
Ultimate X-Men 029 
Ultimate X-Men 030 
Ultimate X-Men 031 
Ultimate X-Men 032 
Ultimate X-Men 033 
Ultimate X-Men 034 
Ultimate X-Men 035 
Ultimate X-Men 036 
Ultimate X-Men 037 
Ultimate X-Men 038 
Ultimate X-Men 039 
Ultimate X-Men 040 
Ultimate X-Men 041 
Ultimate X-Men 043 
Ultimate X-Men 044 
Ultimate X-Men 045 
Ultimate X-Men 046 
Ultimate X-Men 047 

WONG 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 012-FB (Pages 2 through 3) 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 013 

WOO, SHIELD AGENT 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 1-12) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046-FB2 (Pages 7-31) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 13+) 

WOO, SHIELD AGENT JAMES 
Ultimate Spider-Man 057 

WOODY/HANK TIPPLE 
Ultimate Adventures 001 
Ultimate Adventures 002 
Ultimate Adventures 003 
Ultimate Adventures 004 
Ultimate Adventures 005 
Ultimate Adventures 006 

WRAITH, JOHN 
Ultimate X-Men 011-FB (Pages 1 through 9) 
Ultimate X-Men 002 
Ultimate X-Men 007 
Ultimate X-Men 008 
Ultimate X-Men 009 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 

XANDU 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 012 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 013 

ZELAZNY, AGENT 
Ultimate War 4

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2004 01:02 am
By Andy Holcombe

jimmyflowers wrote: 
>>>
NOTE: Currently, Ultimate Marvel Team-Up is considered non-canon. 
<<<



Do you mean issue #9 only or the entire series?

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2004 05:47 am    Post subject: Names
By dimadick

Impressive job of keeping track of all these characters. But are you certain concerning their names? Could the following listing work as well?: 


"ANT-MAN/DOCTOR PYM " 

ANT-MAN/ DR. HENRY "HANK" PYM 

"BRADDOCK, STRIKE AGENT BETSY " 

BRADDOCK, COLONEL ELISABETH "BETSY" 
Ultimate X-Men 016 
Ultimate X-Men 017 
Ultimate X-Men 018 
Ultimate X-Men 019 
Ultimate X-Men 032 (Pages 11+) 


"BUSH, PRESIDENT GEORGE" 

Is this the Ultimate version of George Herbert Walker Bush, 41st President of the United States (June 12, 1924 - , term January 20, 1989 - January 20, 1993) of of George Walker Bush, 43rd President of the United States (July 6, 1946 - , term January 20, 2001 - )? 

BUSH, GEORGE HERBERT WALKER or 

BUSH, GEORGE WALKER ? 

"CAPTAIN AMERICA" 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/ STEVEN ROGERS 
"CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT DICK" 

Presumably this is Richard Bruce "Dick" Cheney, 46th Vice President of the United States. So: 

CHENEY, RICHARD BRUCE "DICK" 

"COLOSSUS " 

COLOSSUS/ PIOTR RASPUTIN 





"DE WOLFE, CAPTAIN JEAN 
Ultimate Spider-Man 060 

DEWOLFF, CAPTAIN JEAN 
Ultimate Spider-Man 031 
Ultimate Spider-Man 032 " 

There is a difference in the spelling of the last name. But is there any other clear reason for Captain Jean DeWolff to have two ultimate counterparts? 

"DOCTOR DOOM" 

DOCTOR DOOM/ VICTOR VAN DAMME 






"FURY, NICK" 

FURY, COLONEL NICHOLAS "NICK" 


"GAMBIT" 

GAMBIT/ REMY LE BEAU 

"HAWKEYE " 

HAWKEYE/ CLINT BARTON 
"HULK" 

HULK/DR. BRUCE BANNER 

"ICEMAN/BOBBY DRAKE" 

ICEMAN/ ROBERT "BOBBY" DRAKE 

"IRON MAN/TONY STARK" 

IRON MAN / ANTHONY "TONY" STARK 

"MAGNETO" 

MAGNETO/ ERIK LENSHERR 



"MCGUIRE, TOBEY" 

Other than the different spelling, any relation to Tobias Vincent "Tobey" Maguire who plays Spider-Man in the films? 

"MOLE MAN" 

MOLE MAN/ ARTHUR MOLEKEVIC 

"NIGHTCRAWLER" 

NIGHTCRAWLER/ KURT WAGNER 


"PRESIDENT OF THE U.S." 

Any reason to give a separate listing than whoever Bush is the active president of the time? 



"RUMSFIELD, DONALD" 

Other than the difference in spelling, is he supposed to be the man who has served both as the 13th (1975 - 1977) and the 21st (2001 - ) Secretary of Defense of the United States? Then he should be under 

RUMSFELD , DONALD HENRY 



"SENATOR ANDREW BORDER TURK' 

Shouldn't this be under 

TURK, SENATOR ANDREW BORDER 



"WASP/JANET VAN DYNE" 

WASP/ JANET PYM (has the VAN DYNE name ever been used for this Asian looking version?) 

WOLVERINE/LOGAN 
Ultimate X-Men 011-FB (Pages 1 through 9) 
Ultimate X-Men 001 
Ultimate X-Men 003-FB (Page 7, panel 4) 
Ultimate X-Men 002 
Ultimate X-Men 003 
Ultimate X-Men 005 
Ultimate X-Men 006 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 001 
Ultimate Marvel Team-Up 011 
Ultimate X-Men 007 
Ultimate X-Men 008 
Ultimate X-Men 009 
Ultimate X-Men 010 
Ultimate X-Men 011 
Ultimate X-Men 012 
Ultimate X-Men 015 
Ultimate X-Men 016 
Ultimate X-Men 017 
Ultimate X-Men 018 
Ultimate X-Men 019 
Ultimate X-Men 020 
Ultimate X-Men 021 
Ultimate X-Men 023 
Ultimate X-Men 024 
Ultimate X-Men 029-FB1 (Pages 2-7) 
Ultimate War 2 
Ultimate War 3 
Ultimate War 4 
Ultimate X-Men 028 
Ultimate X-Men 029 
Ultimate X-Men 030 
Ultimate X-Men 031 
Ultimate X-Men 032 
Ultimate X-Men 033 
Ultimate X-Men 034 
Ultimate X-Men 035 
Ultimate X-Men 036 
Ultimate X-Men 037 
Ultimate X-Men 038 

"WOO, SHIELD AGENT 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 1-12) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 046-FB2 (Pages 7-31) 
Ultimate Spider-Man 021 (Pages 13+) 

WOO, SHIELD AGENT JAMES 
Ultimate Spider-Man 057 " 

Any reason for James Woo, former FBI agent, archenemy of Yellow Claw, organizer of the 1950s Avengers and current SHIELD agent to have two Ultimate counterparts?

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2004 08:51 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

dimadick wrote: 
>>>
"WASP/JANET VAN DYNE" 

WASP/ JANET PYM (has the VAN DYNE name ever been used for this Asian looking version?) 
<<<


Let me preface this by saying I know nothing about the Ultimate Universe, aside from what's in this thread. 

Is there any reason why you assume that other heroes have the exact same names for alter egos, yet are reluctant to do the same for Wasp? There are countless reasons why an "Asian looking" woman could be named van Dyne. 


watching: 9/11 hearings

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2004 05:28 pm    
By jimmyflowers

Thanks for your notes on the listings. 

I keep track of the chronologies using a database, so it's not the easiest thing in the world to change the name of a character without updating all of the entries to match. So, that's why some characters have their "secret IDs" listed and others do not. 

I will endeavor to update a lot of them before the next version. I will also update items where Agent or Senator etc. appears first so that they are consistent, with last name appearing first. Example: AGENT COBB will be listed as COBB, AGENT in the next version. 

Also, and very importantly, I definitely do NOT want to assume characters have the same names in the Ultimate universe as they do in the Mainstream Marvel Universe, because that may not be the case. Some characters have wildly divergent origins, so why not different names? 

As for the specifics, let me respond: 

BRADDOCK, STRIKE AGENT ELISABETH 
I don't recall her being referred to as colonel. If I missed it, please let me know. 

BUSH, PRESIDENT GEORGE 
This should be BUSH, GEORGE HERBERT WALKER. Although I am basing this appearance on a visual of the President, not a textual reference. 

CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT DICK 

See above. Should be: CHENEY, RICHARD BRUCE "DICK" 

DE WOLFE, CAPTAIN JEAN 
vs. 
DEWOLFF, CAPTAIN JEAN 
These are the result of a typo. Will be corrected in next version. 

MCGUIRE, TOBEY 
--PSEUDO-SPOILER ALERT-- 
Question: Other than the different spelling, any relation to Tobias Vincent "Tobey" Maguire who plays Spider-Man in the films? 
Answer: Indeed it is the same person. 

PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. 
Q: Any reason to give a separate listing than whoever Bush is the active president of the time? 
A: Yes, actually, in recent Ultimate issues the President's face has been shadowed, perhaps due to the upcoming election. 

RUMSFIELD, DONALD 
A typo again. Should be: RUMSFELD , DONALD HENRY 

WASP/JANET VAN DYNE 
I am not listing "Van Dyne" as yet, because there has been no mention of her maiden name in the Ultimate universe. 

WOO, SHIELD AGENT 
vs. 
WOO, SHIELD AGENT JAMES 
Same character. Discrepancy in database, will be corrected in next version. 

The rest of the notes were all covered in my opening statements to this reply. Thanks for taking a thorough look. I appreciate the feedback! 

Jimmy

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2004 06:06 pm    Post subject: Please Change!
By Jason Doty

Excellent job keeping up with everything, but please change Ant-Man to Giant Man, other than wearing the helmet a couple of times, his hero identity has always been as Giant Man.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 03:43 am    
By dimadick

"Let me preface this by saying I know nothing about the Ultimate Universe, aside from what's in this thread. " 

I am somewhat less than interested in it as well. But I have come across biographical profiles of some of these Ultimate characters on occassion. 

"Is there any reason why you assume that other heroes have the exact same names for alter egos, yet are reluctant to do the same for Wasp? There are countless reasons why an "Asian looking" woman could be named van Dyne. " 

Actually I have only used names that were reportedly already given to these Ultimate characters in their various past appearances. They are far from identical to the originals. Middle names seem to have been dropped, nick-names have replaced the first names. There is no Victor von Doom, Mole Man has a civilian identity. I am reluctant about Wasp's maiden name because I am unsure if it has been given already at this point.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 08:33 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

dimadick wrote: 
>>>
I am somewhat less than interested in it as well. But I have come across biographical profiles of some of these Ultimate characters on occassion. 
<<<


I'd feel better if I knew that the writers of these profiles shared our reservations about assuming identical names. I'm not even prepared to assume that "Bobby" is a derivative of "Robert" for Iceman. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Thread 45

Posted: 14 Jun 2004 05:53 pm    Post subject: 2099 - the beginnings of a chronology?
By jimmyflowers

I haven't had time to devote to 2099, so I will post something I came across online. I do not know the author. At any rate, it appears to be the beginnings of a chronlogy. Can anyone flesh it out or fill in the blanks...? 

Here goes... 

FALL OF THE HAMMER: 
Spider-Man 16 
Ravage 15 
X-Men 5 
Doom 14 
Punisher 13 

SPIDEY ANNUAL 
Spiderman 24 
Spiderman Annual 
Spiderman 25 

HULK 
Unlimited 1 - 6 (initial appearences of Hulk) 
First Issue of Hulk 

DOOM TAKEOVER 
Doom 29 
2099 AD Special 
World of Doom Special 
Doom 30 +, Spidey 30+, Ravage 30+, Punisher 27+, Unlimited 8+, X Men 20+, Hulk 6+ (approximates based on issue dates) 

X MEN ANNUAL 
X Men 24 
X Men Special 
X Men 25 

APOCALYPSE 
Last Issues of Hulk and Punisher 
Apocalypse Special 

GENESIS 
Genesis Special 
First Issues of X Nation, Fantastic Four 

THE END 
Last Issues of X Men, X Nation, Spiderman, Doom 
Fantstic Four #8 
World Of Tommorow 

CODA 
Manifest Destiny

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2004 02:58 pm    Post subject: Nobody Loves 2099
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

It's true.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2004 03:47 pm    
By SKleefeld

I talked to Karl Kesel about it a few years ago. What basically happened is that line-editor Joey Cavalieri was "callously fired" after only a few issues of the various series and nearly all of the creators walked out in protest. Consequently, all of the 2099 books suffered a sudden, major lack of direction and there were a few months of stumbling as Marvel did triage. I think that showed in the stories, and fans reacted to that by walking away.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 05:45 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Originally Cavalieri wanted to allow the imprint's timeline to advance from 2099 to 2101, and had all of the creators backing him up on the planned changes, but Marvel nixed it because it would've interfered with marketing for a video game that was in the works. Cavalieri kept butting heads with Marvel, got fired, the line imploded, and the video game deal fell through (for unrelated reasons, IIRC). 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Jun 2004 11:54 am    Post subject: More People Loved it than you think
By TheMunch

Actually, you both have it sort of half right. The general view was that Joey C was fired because the line wasn't successful, or that his direction was not in line, or that he didn't get along with the higher ups. Truth was, Marvel was hemorraging money, and not only did they fire Joey C, but 1/3 of the entire Marvel staff as well. They also cancelled 1/4 of their titles. Bankruptcy was declared the following year anyway, $750 million in debt. 

Basically, the 2099 line was cancelled as a cost-cutting measure, which included Joey C's firing. The line continued with WORLD OF TOMORROW out of a contractual obligation to publish a 2099 title so it could tie in with the video game. The game, of course, was never finished. 

There was a creator walkout of solidarity to Joey, which forced a bunch of fill-in creator folks to compress their year-long storylines conceived by Joey and the staff into a couple of months. Some creators stayed on to finish what they started (like John Francis Moore on X-MEN 2099), and probably so they could continue making a living. 

All the details can be found at 2099comics.com, which is currently down but will be back up soon. 

That site will also help you with your chronology of issues and appearances. It will be back up soon, but if you use the Wayback Machine you can peruse its older incarnation. 

Also, stop by the 2099 Underground Message Board if you have any other questions. Thanks..! 

http://www.comicboards.com/2099ug

Munch

			*	*	*

Thread 47

Posted: 31 May 2004 11:08 pm    Post subject: Bishop's Timeline
By Dhall

Here is a list of characters from Bishop's Timeline that need to be added, or updated in the MCP. I will post issue analysis over the next few days. 

I think we should have a seperate page for the Bishopverse. 

I seem to be specializing in alternate timelines lately. 

Dave H 

BISHOPs Timeline: 

AMAZON 
**XSE 1-FB 
UX 96-FB 
BSHP 3-FB 
**XSE 2-FB 
UX 96-FB 

ARCHER (ALREADY IN MCP) 
XF 140 
XF 141 

BANTAM II (ALREADY IN MCP) 
XF 140 
XF 141 
UX 287-FB-BTS 
UX 282 

BILLIBOY (ALREADY IN MCP) 
BSHP 3-FB 
UX 96-FB 
BSHP 3-FB 

BISHOP 
**XSE 1-FB 
UX 96-FB 
**BSHP 3-FB 
UX 96-FB 
**BSHP 3-FB 
**XSE 1-FB 
**XSE 2-FB 
UX 96-FB 
**B:XSE 1 
**B:XSE 2 
**B:XSE 3 
**XSE 3-FB 
**BSHP 3-FB 
**XSE 3-FB 
**XF 140 
**XSE 3-FB 
**XSE 4-FB 
UX 287-FB 
UX 282 

BOOGER (NEW LISTING) 
B:XSE 2 
B:XSE 3 

DAEMON (NEW LISTING) 
XSE 1-FB 

DeCAMP (NEW LISTING) 
XSE 1-FB 

DOGFACE (NEW LISTING) 
B:XSE 1 

DONALBLAIN (NEW LISTING) 
XSE 2-FB 

FERAL II (NEW LISTING) 
XSE 2-FB 

FITZROY 
**XSE 1-FB 
**XSE 3-FB 
XF 141 
**XSE 3-FB 
UX 287-FB 
UX 281 

FIXX (ALREADY IN MCP) 
XF 140 
XF 141 

GENESIS II (FORGE) (PRESUMED TO BE HIM) 
XF 140 

GREYSTONE (ALREADY IN MCP) 
XF 145-FB 
XF 140 
XF 141 

HALFTRACK (ALREADY IN MCP) 
BSHP 3-FB 
UX 96-FB 
BSHP 3-FB 

HANCOCK 
**XSE 1-FB 
UX 96-FB 
BSHP 3-FB 
UX 96-FB 

HARDBALL II (NEW LISTING) 
B:XSE 1 
B:XSE 2 

HECATE II (NEW LISTING) 
XSE 1-FB 
XSE 2-FB 
B:XSE 1 
B:XSE 2 
B:XSE 3 
XSE 3-FB 
XSE 4-FB 

HOOPER (NEW LISTING) 
XSE 1-FB 
XSE 2-FB 

LYCADEON (NEW LISTING) 
XSE 3-FB 
XSE 4-FB 

KALI (NEW LISTING) 
B:XSE 1 

MALCOLM (NEW LISTING) 
XSE 2-FB 
B:XSE 1 
B:XSE 2 
B:XSE 3 
XSE 3-FB 
BSHP 3-FB 
XF 140-BTS 
XSE 3-FB 
XSE 4-FB 
UX 287-FB 
UX 282 
UX 283 
UX 284 
UX 285 
UX 287 

MONK 
UX 96-FB-BTS 

MOUNTJOY 
**XSE 3-FB 
**UX 287-FB-BTS 
BSHP 1 

PULSAR (NEW LISTING) 
B:XSE 1 
B:XSE 2 
B:XSE 3 

RANDALL (NEW LISTING) 
XSE 2-FB 
B:XSE 1 
B:XSE 2 
B:XSE 3 
XSE 3-FB 
XF 140-BTS 
XSE 3-FB 
XSE 4-FB 
UX 287-FB 
UX 282 
UX 283 
UX 284 
UX 285 
UX 287 

RAZORBACK (NEW LISTING) 
B:XSE 1 
B:XSE 2 

RECOIL II 
**XSE 1-FB 
UX 96-FB 
BSHP 3-FB 
UX 96-FB-BTS 

ROCHIMBEUX (NEW LISTING) 
XSE 1-FB 

ROOK (JIMMY KNOX) (NEW LISTING) 
B:XSE 1 
B:XSE 2 
B:XSE 3 

SEYMOUR SHELDON (TRASK) (NEW LISTING) 
B:XSE 1 
B:XSE 3-BTS 

SHACKLE (BAYLOR, SHIRLEY) (NEW LISTING) 
XSE 1-FB 
XSE 2-FB 
XSE 4-FB 
UX 287-FB 

SHARD II 
**XSE 1-FB 
UX 96-FB 
**BSHP 3-FB 
UX 96-FB 
**BSHP 3-FB 
**XSE 1-FB 
**XSE 2-FB 
UX 96-FB 
**B:XSE 1 
**B:XSE 2 
**B:XSE 3 
**XSE 3-FB 
**BSHP 3-FB 
**XSE 3-FB 
**XF 140 
**XF 141 (THIS ISSUE IS LISTED IN THE WRONG PLACE IN HER MCP LISTING) 
**XSE 3-FB 
**XSE 4-FB 
**BSHP 1 (AS A SHADOW) 
BSHP 2 (AS A HOLOGRAM) 
BSHP 4 

SHADOWBOX (NEW LISTING) 
B:XSE 1 
B:XSE 2 
B:XSE 3 

SHAW, ANTHONY (NEW LISTING) 
B:XSE 1 
B:XSE 2 
XSE 3-FB 

SHAW, WILLIAM (NEW LISTING) 
XSE 3-FB-BTS 

STYGLUT 
**XSE 2-FB 
**UX 287-FB-BTS 
UX 288 

SUMMERS (NEW LISTING) 
XSE 1-FB 

SURESHOT (NEW LISTING) 
XSE 1-FB 
XSE 2-FB 

TOASTER (NEW LISTING) 
B:XSE 2 

TRACE (NEW LISTING) 
XSE 1-FB 
XSE 2-FB 

VIRAGO (NEW LISTING) 
XSE 1-FB 

VISIGOTH (NEW LISTING) 
B:XSE 1 

WITNESS (LeBEAU) 
**XSE 1-FB 
**UX 287-FB 
BSHP2 2 

And for the present day: (posted for completness. Michel already has these listed in the xse specific thread) 
Bishop 
UX '96 
**XSE 1 
**XSE 2 
**XSE 3 
**XSE 4 
X 58 

Shard II 
UX '96 
**XSE 1 
**XSE 2 
**XSE 3 
**XSE 4 
M/FAN 2 6 

Storm 
UX '96 
**XSE 4 
UX 338

Last edited by Dhall on 01 Jun 2004 07:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jun 2004 12:23 am    
By John Simons

Hasn't michel already more or less done this in the "XSE #1-4 and Bishop : XSE #1-3" thread? It's true that some of your suggested chronologies differ a bit from his, but wouldn't it be more productive to post responses to his initial work there, rather than reinventing the wheel from scratch?

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jun 2004 09:57 am    
By Dhall

That thread does NOT take into consideration the missing entries in Bishop 3, XF 140, UX 287-FB, and other sources. (These are entries for issues that should already be in the MCP, but for some reason character chronologies do not reflect this. ) It's easier for me (and I think more readable) to start a new thread, than to do a point by point rebuttal, and add items in that thread. Michel does do a good job on the issues which has himself analyzed, and I have not compared my list to his yet. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jun 2004 12:51 pm    
By michel

Actually I took into consideration the Uncanny X-Men issues but not the others, you're right. It seems we just have minor differences, but I won't have the comic books available until this week-end to check them. But I'll be glad to discuss them 

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jun 2004 02:47 pm    
By Dhall

That sounds good to me michel. I plan on posting analysis of Bishop 3, XF 140 and 141 in this thread tonight. (These are partially indexed in the MCP, but not fully.)(UX '96 seems to be fullly indexed.) I would be happy to discuss those here, or the B:XSE & XSE issues in the other thread. I also want to compare your listings to mine. I didn't mean to imply that you didn't consider UX 287, but there are some appearnces in it, which haven't made it into the MCP, as I'm sure you are aware. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jun 2004 03:22 pm    
By michel

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
(UX '96 seems to be fullly indexed.) 
<<<


I'm one of the two guys who offered a contribution for this issue in the "Closing The Gap" section. 

Quote: 
>>>
I would be happy to discuss those here, or the B:XSE & XSE issues in the other thread. 
<<<


Let's stick with this thread, it will be easier than two simultaneous threads 

Quote: 
>>>
I also want to compare your listings to mine. I didn't mean to imply that you didn't consider UX 287, but there are some appearnces in it, which haven't made it into the MCP, as I'm sure you are aware. 
<<<


Yes, that's odd. Malcolm and Randall aren't listed, though they appear in five issues of Uncanny X-Men ! 

Michel

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jun 2004 06:12 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Malcolm and Randall aren't listed, though they appear in five issues of Uncanny X-Men! 
<<<


Yeah, that's one of the main reasons I wanted to do an overhaul of Bishop's timeline. I too sent in a synopsis of UX '96. I've found that the listings get more complete when you have two or more people analyzing the issues rather than just one. 

I'll post some of my analysis, and we can compare it with yours. I've already sent some stuff to Russ, but I haven't posted it on the board yet. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jun 2004 06:45 pm    Post subject: XF 140
By Dhall

X-Factor 140 

Note: that most of this issue (and 141) takes place in the future, as present day Shard has been sent forwards in time, and is reliving events that she experienced in her past. 

Characters: 

Shard (Last App. X-Factor 136, next in X-Factor 141) (Also appears in scenes from her past which occur between flashbacks in XSE 3) 

Bishop (Appears between flashbacks in XSE 3) 

Malcolm (Appears only BTS between flashbacks in XSE 3) 

Randall (Appears only BTS between flashbacks in XSE 3) 

Fixx (Fixxs first app., Next in X-Factor #141) 
Greystone (Last in FB in XF 145, This is Greystones first app., Next in X-Factor #141) 

Archer (Archers first app., Next in X-Factor #141) 

Bantam (Earliest app. To date in fb in this issue, next in fb in xf 141) 

Exhumes 

Genesis (Forge) (never revealed as such, but it clearly was meant to be Forge (who calls himself Genesis in this timeline) as evidenced by dialogue in XF 143, that he told the XUE where in the past to find Mystique. Also if you look at the close up of him in the last panel, its the same as how Forge is drawn in XF 141 ) (First App., No further apps. to date) 

The clues in XF 143 to this are: Mystique as Mallory Brickman, gets a call from someone who knows she is Mystique. When she meets the XUE and asks how they knew where to find her, Fixx Says Obviously someone did. And HE told us exactly where to find you on this day. Archer says He Banded us together, recruited us from within the ranks of the XSE. He sent us to you for help. Mystique: Who is this He? Archer: A Friend of yours. After some other dialogue Archer says He said to tell you this: Now is the time foretold by your friend Irene Adler, Destiny. Heed the call Mystique. After that Mystique becomes willing to listen. 

So the XUEs leader is someone close to Mystique, who is familiar with Destinys powers and identity, looks like Forge (as drawn by the same artist in XF 141) and knows what identity Mystique is using at a specific time. My conclusion is that it is the Forge of Bishops timeline. Fitzroy once referred to Forge as Genesis, and implied that he was a big player in Bishops timeline, but if this is him, this is the only time we have ever seen the character. 


Synopsis: Shard relives events that took place in her past which is in the future. She secretly joins up with a group called the Xaviers Underground Enforcers, an offshoot of the XSE. Their mission is given to them by a shadowy unnamed figure, who is the groups leader is to break Bantam out of jail, so that they can obtain information about Fitzroy from him. This they accomplish.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jun 2004 06:46 pm    Post subject: XF 141
By Dhall

X-Factor 141 

Bantam (Last in FB in XF 140, Next BTS in UX 287-FB) 

Fixx (Last in FB in XF 140, Next in XF 143) 

Greystone (Last in FB in XF 140, Next in XF 143) 

Archer (Last in FB in XF 140, Next in XF 143) 

Fitzroy (in Between FBs in XSE #3) 

Shard (Last in FB in XF 140, Next App. XF 143) (Also appears in scenes from her past after XF 140, and between flashbacks in XSE 3) 

In real timeline: 

Polaris (Last App. XF 139, Next App.XF 146) 
Wild Child (Last App. XF 138, Next App. XF 142) 
Forge (Last App. XF 139, Next App. XF 145) 


Synopsis: Continuing from last issue, in the future, Shard and the XUE hunt down Bantam, who has escaped, find Fitzroy who has been opening portals into the past, and capture him. However, Shard makes the mistake of letting Fitzroy convince her (on the strength of their past relationship) to let him go. She does this, and then he attacks her and the XUE. He tries to open up a portal, but Shard knocks him out. The XUE wants to use Fitzroys power to travel to the past to try to change the future, but Shard isnt interested. Instead, shes going to take Fitzroy into the XSE. Fixx tells her that she is psionically linked to the XUE, and that they will find some way to get into the past. Indeed, they are able to use that link to follow Shard through the time stream, and emerge as Shard does from the future, into the present time.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jun 2004 06:48 pm    Post subject: Bishop 3
By Dhall

Bishop 3 

February 1995 

Future Intense 

Main Char: 

Bishop (Last App. Bishop #1, Next App. Bishop #4) (Also appears in fbs in this issue) (Last in FB 1 in UX96, then Appears in Fb 1 of this issue, then in fb 2 of UX96, then in Fb #3 of this issue, then in fb 5 of XSE #1) (Appears in FB 4 of this issue, in between FB 1 and 2 of XSE #3) 

Villain: 
Mountjoy (Last App. Bishop #1, Next App. Bishop #4) 

Others: 
Various NYPD 

Char only in fb: 

Hancock (Appears in Fb 1 of this issue, between Fb 1 and 2 of Ux96) 

Shard (Last in FB 1 in UX96, then Appears in Fb 1 of this issue, then in fb 2 of UX96, then in Fb #3 of this issue, then in fb 5 of XSE #1) (Appears in FB 4 of this issue, in between FB 1 and 2 of XSE #3) 

Halftrack (Appears in Fb 2 of this issue, which is his earliest app., then in FB 2 of UX 96, then Appears in fb 3 of this issue, no further apps to date.) 

Billiboy (Appears in Fb 2 of this issue, which is his earliest app., then in FB 2 of UX 96, then Appears in fb 3 of this issue, no further apps to date.) 

Amazon (Last App. FB 2 of UX 96, Appears in FB 3 of this issue, then in FB 1 of XSE #2) 

Recoil (Last App. FB 2 of UX 96, Appears in FB 3 of this issue, then in in Fb 3 of UX 96) 

Malcolm (Appears in FB 4 of this issue, after FB 1 of XSE#3, and before his BTS app. In X-factor 140-fb) 

Flashbacks: 

FB 1) Page 8 panels 4-6 and Page 9-10. Hancock cooks supper, as Bishop waits for shard to return, She returns with vegetables. (This is right before Halftrack and Billiboy attack) 

Fb 2) Halftrack and Billiboy attack, though we do not actually see the fight in this issue. 

Fb 3) After the fight, Recoil and Amazon take halftrack and Billliboy away, Amazon offers Bishop a chance to join the XSE, but he will not go unless Shard can come too. 

Fb 4) Page 17 Panels 5-7, Page 18 Panels 1-8: Malcolm watches, then leaves as Shard chews out Bishop. She is upset that he doesnt want a higher position than squad commander in the XSE. (This Flashback occurs in between Flashbacks 1 and 2 of XSE #3)

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 12:07 am    
By Dhall

Uncanny X-Men # 287 
Date:April 1992 

Story Title 
"Bishop to King's Five!" 

Credits 
Editor in Chief: Tom DeFalco 
Editor: Bob Harras 
Plot: Jim Lee 
Script: Scott Lobdell 
Penciler: John Romita Jr. 
Inker: Scott Williams, Ivy, Sienkiewicz, Panosian, Wiacek 
Letterer: Tom Orzechowski 
Colorist: Going + Rosas 

Feature Characters 
Jean Grey, Storm, Iceman, Colossus, Archangel, Forge, Xavier (last App. Uncanny X-Men #286, Next App. for all uncanny X-men #288) 

Guest Stars 
Bishop (Last App. Uncanny X-Men #285, Next App. Uncanny X-Men #288) (Also appears in fb in this issue: Last App. Fb 3 in XSE #4, Next App. Uncanny X-Men #282) 
Randall (Last App. Uncanny X-Men #285, Dies this issue) 
Malcom (Last App. Uncanny X-Men #285, Dies this issue) 

Villains 
various mutant criminals from the future (all die) 

Characters who appear only in flashback: 
Fitzroy (Last App. Flashback 5 of XSE #3., Next App. In Uncanny X-men #281) 
Shackle (Last App. Flahback 3 of XSE #4, no further apps. To date) 
LeBeau, The Witness (Last App. Flashback 3 of XSE #4, Next App. Bishop Vol2 #2) 
Bantam (behind the scenes in flashback) (Last App. In FB in X-Factor #140 and X-Factor #141, Next App. Uncanny X-men #282) 
Mountjoy (Last App. FB 1 in XSE #3, appears Behind the scenes in flashback, must have merged with Bantam, during this flashback, after being freed along with the other prisoners, Next App. Bishop #1) 
various future criminals (in flashback) 
Styglut (behind the scenes in flashback, Next App. BTS in UX #282, then in UX #288) 
Randall (Last App. Fb 1 in XSE #4., Next App. Uncanny X-men #282) 
Malcom (Last App. Fb 1 in XSE #4., Next App. Uncanny X-men #282) 

Special Weapons and Devices 
Blackbird 
Cerebro unit in Blackbird 
Professor Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters 
In Flashback only: Morlock Tunnels, Xavier Sanctum, Neuro-Collar, Jean's transmission, The Pool, shuttlecraft, The Witness' place, Time Portal created by Fitzroy in Uncanny X-Men #282. 

Flashback 
This occurs before Fitzroy's first app. in Uncanny X-Men #281(in the future). Bishop, Malcom, and Randall chase Fitzroy through the old Morlock tunnels, and into the X-Men's old place, and find a transmission from Jean going on about how someone betrayed the X-Men and killed them. Then Bishop drops Fitzroy off at the Pool for imprisonment, and goes to see the Witness. 
The Witness is known as LeBeau, and is rumoured to have been the last person to see the X-Men alive. The Witness already knows about what Bishop has found, then Bishop is forced to leave. Meanwhile Fitzroy escapes.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 12:08 am    
By Dhall

XSE #1 

November 1996 


Timelost 


Main Characters: 

Bishop (Last App. Uncanny X-men 96, next App. XSE #2) (Also Appears in flashbacks in this issue) (Appears in FB 1 then 2, then 3 of this issue, Next in FB 1 of UX 96, then in Fb 1 of Bishop 3, then in fb 2 of Ux96, then in fb 3 of bishop 3, then in fb 5 and 6 of this issue, Next in Fb 1 of XSE #2) 

Shard (Last App. Uncanny X-men 96, next App. XSE #2) (Also Appears in flashbacks in this issue) (Appears in FB 1 then 2, then 3 of this issue, Next in Next in FB 1 of UX 96, then in Fb 1 of Bishop 3, then in fb 2 of Ux96, then in fb 3 of bishop 3, then in fb 5 and 6 of this issue, Next in Fb 1 of XSE #2) 


Characters who appear only in flashback: 

Virago (First App. In Fb 5b of this issue, then in FB 1 of this issue, Dies this issue, killed by XSE member Sureshot) 

Sureshot (First App. In FB 5d of this issue, then in FB 1 in this issue, next App. Flashback 6 of this issue, where she dies, next app. As a corpse in XSE #2) 

Trace (First App. In FB 5D of this issue, then in FB 1 in this issue, next App. Flashback 6 of this issue, where he dies, next app. As a corpse in XSE #2) 


Bishop and Shards grandmother (Possibly Monet St. Croix(M)) (First and only app., in FB 3 of this issue, where she dies) 

Hancock (First App. BTS in FB 5A of this issue, then appears In FB 2 of this issue, Next App. In FB 1 and 2 of UX 96) 

Fitzroy (First App. In FB 6 of this issue, Next App. In FB 3 of XSE #3) 

Shirley Baylor (later becomes Shackle) (First App. In FB 6 in this issue, Next App. FB 1 of XSE #2) 

Hooper (First App. BTS in FB 6 of this issue, Next app. Fb 1 in XSE #2 

Summers (First and only app. In FB 5A of this issue) (Is a woman, probably a decendent of Scott or Alex Summers.) (Dies sometime after this fb) 

Daemon ( First and only app. In fb 5b of this issue, leader of the Exhumes) 

Rochimbeux (First and only app. In fb 5c of this issue) (a member of the council) 

DeCamp (First and only app. In fb 5c of this issue) (a member of the council) 

Amazon (Earliest App. In Fb 5D of this issue, Next App. In FB 2 in UX 96 then in BISHOP 3-FB, THEN IN FB 1 of XSE #2) 

Recoil (Earliest App. In Fb 5D of this issue, Next App. In FB 2 in UX 96) 

Hecate (First App., in FB 5 A-5D of this issue, then appears in the main portion of Flashback 5 of this issue, Next App. In FB 2 of XSE #2) 

Various emplates 

Plot Synopsis: After the events of UX 96, Bishop and Shard watch various episodes from their shared past as Danger Room scenarios, and reminisce about flashbacks. 


Flashbacks: 

FB 1) Page 4-6: At the mutant relocation camp, that Bishop and Shard lived in when they were young, 2 XSE agents, Sureshot and Recoil chase Virago, a member of the Exhumes, a dangerous band of mutant terrorists. Virago uses Shard as a human shield, but Bishop jumps at her, forcing her to drop Shard. Sureshot shoots Virago. 

FB 2) Page 8: After leaving the camp, Bishop and Shard are raised for a time, by their grandmother, and Hancock. (Note: in Gen X 14, Bishop looks at M, and thinks that she is his grandmother.) 

FB 3) Page 9 panels 2,-5: Bishop and Shard watch as their grandmother dies from natural causes. Bishop promises her that he will always look after Shard. 

FB 4) Page 10 Panel 5-Page 11 Panel 1: This recaps how Bishop and Shard came to join the XSE, it is just a fb back to events already shown in fb in Bishop #3, and UX 96, and is not a new flashback. 

FB 5) Page 11 panels 2-4, Page 12- Page 17: Bishop and Shard join the newest class of recruits at the XSE West HQ. Hecate reveals some of the XSEs past, including an account of the Summers rebellion. Fitzroy is also a member of the new class. Shard confronts Hecate about Hancock, and she uses her powers to try to scare Shard and Bishop, but Bishop stands up to her. 
There are flashbacks within this flashback: 

FB 5 A) Page 13: Hecate narrates her past overthrowing Sentinel rule, and participating in the Summers rebellion. (Note we see Summers in this, who is female, but dies sometime during the rebellion.) 

FB 5B) Page 14 Panels 1-2: Hecate talks about the Exhumes, including Daemon and Virago. 

Fb 5C) Page 14 Panels 3-5, Page 15 panels 1-3: Hecate talks about her role in bringing the XSE into existence, how she worked with members of the council, Rochimbeux, DeCamp, and others. 

FB 5D) Page 15 panel 4: Hecate stands with the founding members of the XSE: Hecate, Amazon, Recoil, Sureshot, and Trace. 

FB 6) Page 19-22: Sureshot and Trace take the new class, including Bishop, Shard, Sherry, Fitzroy, Hooper,and other young recruits on a field trip, but they are ambushed by Emplates, who kill Sureshot and Trace. Fitzroy wants to run away, but Bishop and Shard want to fight.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 12:09 am    
By Dhall

XSE 2 

December 1996 

Future Intense 

Main Characters: 
Bishop (Last App. XSE #1, Next App. XSE #3) (Also appear in FBs in this issue: Last in FB 6 of XSE #1, Appears in Fb 1 and 2 of this issue, then appears next in FB 4 of this issue, then in FB 3 of this issue, then in FB 5 of this issue, Next App. FB 3 in UX 96, then In Bishop: XSE #1) 

Shard (Last App. XSE #1, Next App. XSE #3) (Also appear in FBs in this issue: Last in FB 6 of XSE #1, Appears in Fb 1 and 2 of this issue, Next App. Fb 3 in Ux 96, then In Bishop: XSE #1) 


Characters who appear only in FB: 
Sureshot (Last App. In FB 6 of XSE #1, appears only as a corpse, no further apps.) 

Trace (Last App. In FB 6 of XSE #1, appears only as a corpse, no further apps.) 

Amazon (Last App. In Fb 3 of Bishop 3, Appears in FB 1 of this issue, Next App. Fb 3 of UX 96) 

Hecate (Last App. In FB 5 of XSE #1, Appears in FB 2 of this issue, then in FB 4 of this issue, Next App. In Bishop: XSE #1) 

Shirley Baylor (later Shackle) (Last App. In FB 6 of XSE #1,Appears in FB 1 of this issue, Next App. Fb 2 of XSE #4) 

Malcom (First App. In FB 4 of this issue, Next App. In Fb 3 of this issue, then in Fb 5 of this issue, next app. In Bishop: XSE #1) 

Randall (First App. In FB 4 of this issue, Next App. In Fb 3 of this issue, then in Fb 5 of this issue, next app. In Bishop: XSE #1) 

Styglut (Earliest App. In FB 5 of this issue, Next App. BTS in fb in UX #287) 

Feral II (First App., no further apps. To date) (member of XSE) 

Donalblain (First and only app. As a corpse in this issue (He is Malcolms younder brother) No further apps.) 

Plot synopsis: Bishop and Shard view old memories as Danger room scenarios, and talk about their past. 


Flashbacks: 
FB 1) Pages 1-8 Panels 1-2: Bishop and Shard fight emplates. (This continues from FB 6 in xse #2) Shards powers manifest for the first time, and she kills several emplates. She also kills one of the students, Hooper. Bishop and Shirley hold off emplates with guns, and with Bishops power until it runs out. Various unnamed XSE members turn up to help out, along with Amazon. 

FB 2) Page 8 panels 3-5: Hecate rewards Bishop with his own command, and honors the actions of Shard an Shirley Baylor. 

FB 3) Page 11 Panels 3-5: Bishop first visits Harmony Base with Malcom and Randall. 

FB 4) Page 13-16: Hecate asks Bishop to take on Malcolm as a member of his squad, he agrees provided he can take on Randall too. 

FB 5) Page 17 Panels 2-4, Pages 18-21 panels 1-4: Bishops second visit to Harmony base. Bishop, Malcolm, and Randall fight Styglut and the Exhumes, until Feral II comes with his XSE squad. Malcolm rushes into the compound only to find that everyone is dead, including his younger brother Donalbain. He apprehends Styglut, instead of killing him.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 12:09 am    
By Dhall

XSE 3 

January 1997 

Future Betrayed 


Main Characters: 
Bishop (Last App. XSE #2, Next App.XSE #4) (Also appears in fb1 of this issue, (after Bishop: XSE #3,)then in fb in bishop 3, then in Fb 2 of this issue, then in FB 3 of this issue, then in Fb in X-Factor #140, then in FB 4 and 5 of this issue, Next App. Fb 1 of XSE #4) 

Shard (Last App. XSE #2, Next App.XSE #4) (Also appears in fb1 of this issue, (after Bishop: XSE #3,) then in fb in bishop 3then in Fb 2 of this issue, then in Fb 3 of this issue, then in FB in X-Factor #140, then in FB in X-factor #141, then in FB 4 and 5 of this issue, Next App. Fb 1 of XSE #4) 

Characters who appear only in Fb: 

Mountjoy (Earliest App. In FB 1 of this issue, Next App. BTS inside of Bantam during Bantams BTS app, in fb in UX #287, then in Bishop #1) 

Malcolm (Last App. Bishop: XSE #3, appears In FB 1 of this issue, then in fb in bishop 3, then BTS in Fb in X-Factor #140, then in FB 4 and 5 of this issue, Next App. FB 1 of XSE #4) 

Randall (Last App. Bishop: XSE #3, appears In FB 1 of this issue, then BTS in Fb in X-Factor #140, then in FB 4 and 5 of this issue, Next App. FB 1 of XSE #4) 

Hecate (Last App. Bishop: XSE #3, Appears in FB 2 of this issue, Next app. FB 1 and 3 of XSE #4) 

Lycadeon (First App. In FB 2 of this issue, Works for the Witness, Next App. In fb 1 in XSE #4) 

Fitzroy (Last App. In Fb 6 of XSE #1, Appears in FB 3 of this issue, then appears in FB in X-factor #140 and X-Factor #141, then in FB 4 and 5 of this issue, Next App. Fb in Uncanny X-Men #287) 

William Shaw (Appears BTS in FB 3 only, and is killed in some unrevealed way by Fitzroy during FB 3,his First and only app.) 

Anthony Shaw (Last App. Bishop: XSE #2, Appears in fb 4 of this issue, no further apps. To date) 

Unnamed emplates 
Unnamed Hellions 

Plot Synopsis: Shard and Bishop remember the past. 


Flashbacks: 

FB 1) Pages 1-5: Bishops Squad (Bishop, Shard, Malcolm and Randall) pursues and captures Mountjoy. For capturing the #1 most wanted criminal, Shard expects that she will get a promotion (which she does.) 

FB 2) Page 7 Panels 4-6, through Page 11 panels 1-3: After Shards promotion, she heads a project, working with Mr. Lycadeon (who works for the witness) to develop a prototype solid hologram to augment and replace the ranks of the XSE. The problem is that for it to work, it would have to absorb all of that persons memories, killing them in the process. Hecate decideds not to pursue the project. Shard is pisssed off, and blames her brother. They fight, Hecate reprimands them. 

FB 3) Page 12 panels 2-3, Page 13-14: Mainly to get back at Bishop, Shard gets involved in a relationship with Fitzroy (who is still in the XSE training program.) He tells her about his father, Anthony Shaw, and the Hellfire Club. He tells her that he is only Shaws illegitimate child, and that his brother William is the true heir. He also tells her that William will die tonight, and that he will be called home. This happens the next day. Fitzroy leaves the XSE. (Bishop briefly appears in this fb, watching Shard and Fitzroy) 

FB 4) Page 15-16: Shard captures Fitzroy, and turns him over to the XSE. He stands trial. Anthony Shaw talks to Bishop about how Fitzroy will not be found guilty, and offers Bishop a place in the Hellfire Club, which Bishop refuses. 

FB 5) Pages 17-21: Fitzroy is not convicted. Instead he creates a band of young mutant Hellions, which Bishop, Randall and Malcolm bust up, capturing Fitzroy once again. Fitzroy offers to make a deal with the XSe, in echange for his freedom, he will give up the location of a band of exhumes. Bishop says that if Fitzroy talks, hell see what he can do, but that Fitz will be held in the meantime. Bishop wants Shard to receive credit for making the exhume bust, so he goes along with her request for him, randall and Malcolm to not come with her. Instead, she rounds up a squad of XSE agents, and goes after the Exhumes. When they get there, Shard finds instead, a group of Emplates ready to feast. When Bishop realizes that theyve lost contact with Shard, he confronts Fitzroy, who tells him the truth. Bishop takes Randall and Malcolm to go save his sister, but when he gets there it is too late, she is already and emplate.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 12:11 am    
By Dhall

XSE #4 

February 1997 

Conflagration 

Main Characters: 

Bishop (Last App. XSE #3, Next App. X 58) (Also appears in fb 1 of this issue, after fb 5 of XSE #3, then in FB 2 and 3 of this issue, Next App. Fb in Uncanny X-Men #287) 

Shard (Last App. XSE #3,Next App. In M/FAN2 6) (Also Appears in Fb 1 of this issue, where she dies, after FB 5 of XSE #3, Next App. As a shadow in Bishop #1, then in Bishop #2 as a hologram) 

Guest Character: 

Storm (Last App. UX 96, Next App. UX 338) 


Characters who appear only in fb: 
Malcolm (Last App. FB 5 of XSE #3, Appears in fb 1 of this issue, Next App. Fb in Uncanny X-Men #287) 

Randall (Last App. FB 5 of XSE #3, Appears in fb 1 of this issue, Next App. Fb in Uncanny X-Men #287) 

Lycadeon (Last App. In FB 2 of XSE #3, Appears in fb 1 of this issue, then in fb 2 and 3 of this issue, no further apps. To date) 

The Witness (LeBeau) (Earliest App., in Fb 1 of this issue, then appears in FB 2 and 3 of this issue, then in fb in Uncanny X-Men #287) 

Hecate (Last App. In FB 2 of XSe #3, Appears in FB 1 of this issue, then in fb 3 of this issue, no further apps. To date) 

Shackle (Shirley Baylor) (Last App. Fb 1 of XSE #2,Appears in fb 2 of this issue, thenin fb 3 of this issue, Next App. In fb in Uncanny X-Men #287) 

Various emplates 
Various xse agents 

Plot Synopsis: Bishop and Shard talk about the past 

Flashbacks: 

FB 1) Pages 1-14, Page 15 Panels 1-2: Bishop, Malcolm, and Randall attempt to recuse Shard, but find out that she is already an emplate. They fight emplates, but Bishop is only interested in trying to save Shard. Bishop orders Malcolm to shoot him, to gain bio fuel, which he uses to knock out Shard. They, and Randall retreat from the battle, leaving the rest of the XSE to fight emplates, while they take Shard to Stark/Fujikawa. Bishop volunteers Shard for the holomatrix process, which will kill her, even though she is already dying. Lycadeon is surprised, and takes them to see the Witness. He makes a deal with Bishop. They will use the process on Shard, if he agrees to serve the Witness for one year. Lycadeon uses the processon Shard, which put her brain patterns into the holomatrix, but kils her body. The next day, Bishop faces Hecate, and tries to resign his commission, but she tells him to go work for the witness, and then come back to the XSE, and tell them what he has learned. 

FB 2) Page 16, Page 17, Panels 1-4: Bishop is outfitted for his new job. Lycadeon intrioduces him to Shackle, who is Shirley from the XSE training class. 

FB 3) Page 18 panels 4-6, Page 19-21: At the end of his years service, Bishop meets with the Witness. Afterwards, he recives Shard holoprojector, then destroys the main matrix so that the Witness cannot have Shard too. The witness arrives, and tells security to let Bishop go back to the XSE. Bishop goes back, Hecate returns him to duty.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 12:11 am    
By Dhall

Bishop: XSE #1 
Date: January 1998 

Story Title 
Rook Takes Pawn" 

Credits 
Editor in Chief: Bob Harras 
Editor: Kelly Corvese 
Writer: John Ostrander 
Penciler: Steve Epting 
Inker: Mark Prudeaux 
Letterer: Richard Starkings 
Colorist: Brad Vancata 

Feature Characters 
Bishop (Last Apps. FB 5 of XSE #2, and FB 3 of UX 96, Next App. Bishop:XSE #2) 
Shard (Last Apps. FB 2 of XSE #2, and FB 3 of UX 96, Next App. Bishop:XSE #2) 
Malcom (Last App. Fb 5 of XSE #2, Next App. Bishop:XSE #2) 
Randall (Last App. Fb 5 of XSE #2, Next App. Bishop:XSE #2) 
Hecate (Last App. Fb 4 of XSE #2, Next App. Bishop:XSE #2) 

Supporting Characters 
Various XSE members 

Villains 
Rook (Jimmy Knox)(appears in several different bodies, and LMDs, including one of his father, J. Jerome Knox, and a made up relative Anabelle Knox, Randall, and Bishop)(Also takes over Randalls body in this issue) 
Pulsar (First App., Next App. Bishop:XSE #2) 
Kali (First App., Dies this issue) 
Hardball (First App., Next App. Bishop:XSE #2) 
Dogface (First App., Dies this issue) 
Razorback (First App., Next App. Bishop:XSE #2) 
Visigoth (First App., No Further Apps. To date) 
Shadowbox (First App., Next App. Bishop:XSE #2) 

Anthony Shaw (Fitzroy's father, and head of Hellfire Club) (First App., Next App. Bishop: XSE #2) 
Seldom Seymour (aka Trask) (First App., Next App., Behind the Scenes in Bishop:XSE #3) 

Ploy Synopsis: Instead of being a series of Flashbacks like the XSE limited series, the Bishop: XSE limited series, concenrs a series of events which occur in between the flashbacks of XSE 2 and 3. 

Bishops squad: Bishop, Shard, Malcolm, and randall fight Fanatix a mutant terrorist group working for Rook. After the fight, Randal apparently kills a human who is an advocate for better human/mutant relations. (He is really being controlled by Rook.) Rook (as an LMD Annabelle knox) meets with Anthony Shaw, the leader of the Hellfire Club. (Who is also Fitzroys father.) Rook tells Shaw that he is going to eliminate the XSE, and wants to be made a member fo the Hellfire Club. On TV a man called Selden Seymour talks about his group, the Human Defense League, how much better Sentinel rule was, and how he wants to be called Trask in honor of the creator of the Sentinels. Hecate has Randall imprisoned for his apparent crime. Pulsar, Shadowbox , and Knox (as an LMD opf Randall) teleport into the holding area, and try to free the other prisoners, but Bishops squad stops them, but they do manage to grab the real Randall, and teleport away. Knox appears as a Bishop LMD.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 12:12 am    
By Dhall

Bishop: XSE #2 
Date: February 1998 

Story Title 
Rook Vs. Bishop" 

Credits 
Editor in Chief: Bob Harras 
Editor: Kelly Corvese 
Writer: John Ostrander 
Penciler: Steve Epting and Nick Napalitano 
Inker: Mark Prudeaux, Robert Jones, Andrew Pepoy, and Steve Moncuse 
Letterer: Richard Starking 
Colorist: Brad Vancata 

Feature Characters 
Bishop (Last App. Bishop: XSE #1, Next App. Bishop: XSE #3) 
Hecate (Last App. Bishop: XSE #1, Next App. Bishop: XSE #3) 
Shard (Last App. Bishop: XSE #1, Next App. Bishop: XSE #3) 
Malcom (Last App. Bishop: XSE #1, Next App. Bishop: XSE #3) 
Randall (Last App. Bishop: XSE #1, Next App. Bishop: XSE #3) 

Supporting Characters 
Various XSE members 

Villains 
Rook (Last App. Bishop: XSE #1, Next App. Bishop: XSE #3) (Appears as LMDs of Bishop, and Anabella Knox) 
Pulsar (Last App. Bishop: XSE #1, Next App. Bishop: XSE #3) 
Shadowbox (Last App. Bishop: XSE #1, Next App. Bishop: XSE #3) 
Razorback (Last App. Bishop: XSE #1, No Further Apps. To date) 
Hardball (Last App. Bishop: XSE #1, No Further Apps. To date) 

Anthony Shaw (Last App. Bishop: XSE #1, Next App. In Fb # 4 in XSE #3) 

Toaster (First App., No Further Apps. To date) 
Booger (First App., Next App. Bishop: XSE #3) 
Various other bottom-feeders 

Other Characters 
Mayor of NYC (first app., dies this issue) 
Various police, reporters, bystanders 


Plot Snyopsis: 
This story continues from Bishop: XSE 1. Knox and Fanatix attacks the new statue of liberty, destroying it, and killing the mayor of nyc. Since he appears as a Bishop LMD, his plan is to discredit the XSE. The real Bishop meets with Anthony Shaw, who tells him about the Rook, who Shaw sees as a threat to his own plans. Hecate thinks that Bishop is innocent, but inists that he be brought in. Shard wont go along with this, and is confined to monitor duty. Malcolm leaves to hunt down Bishop. In Shards quarters, Bishop surprises her and enlists her aid to track down Rook. In rooks HQ, Randall watches while Rook takes on a new body, an Anabella Knox LMD. Bishop goes to a bar to shake down some lowlifes for information. Shard contacts him and explains about the LMDs. Malcolm arrests Shard for working with Bishop. Malcolm and Bishop fight.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 12:12 am    
By Dhall

Bishop:XSE #3 
Date: March 1998 

Story Title 
Final Ploy" 

Credits 
Editor in Chief: Bob Harras 
Editor: Kelly Corvese 
Writer: John Ostrander 
Penciler: Steve Epting 
Inker: Andrew Pepoy and Mark Prudeaux 
Letterer: Richard Starking 
Colorist: Brad Vancata 

Feature Characters 
Bishop (Last App. Bishop: XSE #2, Next App. Flashback 1 in XSE #3) 
Malcom (Last App. Bishop: XSE #2, Next App. Flashback 1 in XSE #3) 
Randall (Last App. Bishop: XSE #2, Next App. Flashback 1 in XSE #3) 
Shard (Last App. Bishop: XSE #2, Next App. Flashback 1 in XSE #3) 
Hecate (Last App. Bishop: XSE #2, Next App. Flashback 2 in XSE #3) 

Supporting Characters 
Various XSE members 

Villains 
Rook (Jimmy Knox)(Last App. Bishop: XSE #2, No Further Apps. To date) (Appears as LMD anabella Knox, LMD of Hecate, and in his own real body of Jimmy Knox) 
Pulsar (Last App. Bishop: XSE #2, Dies this issue) 
Shadowbox (Last App. Bishop: XSE #2, Dies this issue) 

Seldom Seymour (Trask) (Last App. Bishop:XSE #1, Appears behind the scenes only, no futher apps. To date) 

Booger (Last App. Bishop:XSE #2, no further apps. To date) 
Various Bottom-feeders 

Plot Snyopsis: 
This issue continues directly from Bishop: XSE #2. Malcolm and Bishop fight, but Bishop convinces Malcolm to join him, and then knocks him out to make Bishops escape look convincing. Knox explains his plan to Randall, while Randall sows doubt in the minds of Pulsar and Shadowbox. Knox takes on the LMD identity of Hecate. Bishop shakes down Boogar for information. Malcolm frees Shard, and explains that he is working with the real Hecate to clear Bishop and randall. At a theater, Knox tries to enlist a bunch of lowlife cannon fodder to help his plan to frame the XSE for Tarsks murder. He plans to kill Randall as proof, but Pulsar and Shadowbox only pretend to do it. Puslar is killed by Rook. Bishopds squad chases after Rook. They find Shadowbox, killed by Rook. They destroy Rooks LMD making machine, and kill the Anabells Know LMD. In his real body, Knox tries to kill Malcolm, but Bishop prevents this. Later at a briefing, Hecatse sums up Rooks plan.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 12:15 am    
By Dhall

Ok, I've posted issue analysis for every issue in Bishop's timeline, except UX '96 (as both micel's and my analysis of this are already incorporated into the MCP.) The more analysis of any issue not in the MCP (or of those that are only partially indexed) the closer we come to filling in the second gap. 


Dave H

			*	*	*

Thread 48

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 01:03 pm    Post subject: do you want issue analysis for 'Nam?
By Enda80

I have many issues of the 'Nam in my possession. If you want, I could, at some future point, do issue analysis for it. 

I am asking before jumping into it because of the fact that, to my knowledge, the only character introduced in The 'Nam who ever appeared in another series was Ice Phillips, who shows up in some issues of Punisher War Journal and Punisher War Zone. 

Since The 'Nam series is very easy to chronologize in that it rarely did flashbacks, it would not be too difficult.

			*	*	*

Thread 49

Posted: 01 Jun 2004 10:18 pm    Post subject: Call for analyses
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I'd like to fill in a few gaps before posting the calendar this month. I wonder if our issue analysts would consider contributing their notes on the following in the next several days: 

DAREDEVIL v2 #58-60 
NYX #1-5 
PUNISHER v7 #1-6 
RUNAWAYS #1-14 
SILVER SURFER v4 #1-6 
THANOS #1-10 
VENOM #6-13 
WOLVERINE v3 #7-12 

I think these runs of issues contain story arcs that are now completed. I know some current regulars have signed up for some of these but that other titles may have fallen by the wayside. 

Also, if anyone can provide initial thoughts on the possible placement of DISTRICT X, PULSE, and WOLVERINE/PUNISHER, that would be great. 

Thanks to all. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Jun 2004 12:45 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Paul, the TPB of Wolverine #7-11 is on its way to me now, and I should get it Saturday or Monday. I'll have your write-up a day or so after that. 

Also, I have Venom #6-10 ... want details, or does someone else have those covered? 

I have Pulse #1-2 and Wolvie/Punisher #1-2, too, if you'd like info ... did you want full synopses of them, or just thoughts on when they might occur? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Jun 2004 06:27 am 
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I'd like to fill in a few gaps before posting the calendar this month. I wonder if our issue analysts would consider contributing their notes on the following in the next several days: 

NYX #1-5 
<<<


NYX #5 still hasn't shipped. The book is up to issue #4 and, as yet, features no other Marvel Universe characters at all. The story spans several months. Placement at this stage would be pretty much guesswork. 

Quote: 
>>>
PUNISHER v7 #1-6 
<<<

I'm increasingly of the view that this isn't canon. It completely contradicts previous Microchip stories. Moreover, Ennis has mentioned in interviews the possibility of having a guest appearance in upcoming stories by the Max version of Nick Fury. If you really want to place, it, though, it's a few days of the Punisher being held hostage by some characters we've never seen before (allied with Microchip) and then escaping (and killing Microchip). 


Quote: 
>>>
RUNAWAYS #1-14 
<<<

Who's meant to be covering this? I can do it if you want. 


Quote: 
>>>
SILVER SURFER v4 #1-6 
<<<

Issue #6 doesn't resolve the story but simply leads directly into a continuation. Again, I can let you have an analysis of the series to date if you want. Nothing of importance transpires, and the Silver Surfer is the only Marvel character to appear. 


Quote: 
>>>
THANOS #1-10 
<<<

Issues #1-6 contain a completed story arc. Issues #7-10 are the first two thirds of a storyline projected to end with issue #12. Again, I can cover this if nobody else wants it. 


Quote: 
>>>
VENOM #6-13 
<<<

Again, I can cover this if need be. This one gets REALLY complicated, I'll warn you. 


Quote: 
>>>
WOLVERINE v3 #7-12 
<<<

Entirely straightforward. Self-contained. Again, if nobody else wants to take it... 


Quote: 
>>>
Also, if anyone can provide initial thoughts on the possible placement of DISTRICT X, PULSE, and WOLVERINE/PUNISHER, that would be great. 
<<<

PULSE must precede "King of Hell's Kitchen" in DAREDEVIL, since an issue of the Pulse supplement is seen in the final page of that story. It also precedes the Marvel Knights SPIDER-MAN, since the Green Goblin is in jail in that story. 

DISTRICT X appears to take place after Storm's team of X-Men move back into the Mansion. As of yet, they haven't done so in UNCANNY, but have done in X-MEN. (And they're not mentioned in ASTONISHING.) There's also an X-MEN UNLIMITED story to account for, but we'll have to wait and see where that best fits in DISTRICT X - I suspect it'll fit somewhere in the course of the opening storyline, since it involves Bishop knowing about characters who are going to turn up again in later issues. 

WOLVERINE/PUNISHER is entirely freestanding.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Jun 2004 07:14 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Paul, the TPB of Wolverine #7-11 is on its way to me now, and I should get it Saturday or Monday. I'll have your write-up a day or so after that. 
<<<

Great! Thanks, Jeph. 


Quote: 
>>>
Also, I have Venom #6-10 ... want details, or does someone else have those covered?  
<<<

This was assigned to Drew, who's been MIA for a while. If you wouldn't mind doing this, that would be great, Jeph. 


Quote: 
>>>
I have Pulse #1-2 and Wolvie/Punisher #1-2, too, if you'd like info ... did you want full synopses of them, or just thoughts on when they might occur? 
<<<

Some folks prefer to wait until a story arc finishes before writing things up, but I certainly wouldn't mind full synopses if you're so inclined. Thanks again. 


Quote: 
>>>
NYX #5 still hasn't shipped. The book is up to issue #4 and, as yet, features no other Marvel Universe characters at all. The story spans several months. Placement at this stage would be pretty much guesswork.  
<<<

Any temporal references that might nail calendar placement? 


Quote: 
>>>
I'm increasingly of the view that this isn't canon. It completely contradicts previous Microchip stories. Moreover, Ennis has mentioned in interviews the possibility of having a guest appearance in upcoming stories by the Max version of Nick Fury. If you really want to place, it, though, it's a few days of the Punisher being held hostage by some characters we've never seen before (allied with Microchip) and then escaping (and killing Microchip).  
<<<

Let's hold off on this, then. 


Quote: 
>>>
RUNAWAYS #1-14 
Who's meant to be covering this? I can do it if you want.  
<<<

Dan Spears, also MIA. He was assigned Thanos and INHUMANS, too. That reminds me, I don't have any info on INHUMANS. Can anyone lend a hand? 


Quote: 
>>>
SILVER SURFER v4 #1-6 
Issue #6 doesn't resolve the story but simply leads directly into a continuation. Again, I can let you have an analysis of the series to date if you want. Nothing of importance transpires, and the Silver Surfer is the only Marvel character to appear.  
<<<

An analysis of issues to date would be great, Paul. Thanks. 


Quote: 
>>>
THANOS #1-10 
Issues #1-6 contain a completed story arc. Issues #7-10 are the first two thirds of a storyline projected to end with issue #12. Again, I can cover this if nobody else wants it.  
<<<

As noted, Dan Spears is MIA, so go for it! 


Quote: 
>>>
VENOM #6-13 
Again, I can cover this if need be. This one gets REALLY complicated, I'll warn you.  
<<<

Jeph was first to volunteer, but feel free to chime in with additional comments if need be. 


I just realized: I'm totally lacking in notes on SENTINEL, which was assigned to the MIA Garbonzo. Can anyone tackle this? 


Thanks to all volunteers!  

_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 01:10 pm    
By PopularLoser

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I just realized: I'm totally lacking in notes on SENTINEL, which was assigned to the MIA Garbonzo. Can anyone tackle this?  
<<<


I can take it if no one else will.
_________________
<Insert Signature Here>

			*	*	*


Posted: 03 Jun 2004 01:57 pm
By Peter Fabricius

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Also, if anyone can provide initial thoughts on the possible placement of DISTRICT X, PULSE, and WOLVERINE/PUNISHER, that would be great. 
<<<


Wolverine/Punisher is almost freestanding, there is a full moon on the last page of #1, but aside from that, nothing. 

The first part of #1 takes place '10 years ago' and inculdes Punisher in ordinary clothes, but has a picture of him in his classic costume, and he is already using the name Punisher.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 03:31 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

I think Pulse was on my plate. One of the reasons, Paul, I asked you about the current state of the calendar was to see how Daredevil gets laid out. I've been following the series, but haven't the time to sort through all the flashbacks/flashforwards. 

It looks as if all the Bendis titles will be somewhat interwoven, so I'll look Pulse more closely once I figure out DD.  

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Dan Spears, also MIA. He was assigned Thanos and INHUMANS, too. That reminds me, I don't have any info on INHUMANS. Can anyone lend a hand? 
<<<

I can look at Inhumans. Offhand, there's not too much intergration with the rest of the MU, so it'll boil down to the school year more than anything else, I think. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
VENOM #6-13 
Again, I can cover this if need be. This one gets REALLY complicated, I'll warn you.  
<<<

Jeph was first to volunteer, but feel free to chime in with additional comments if need be. 
<<<


And, rest assured, I'll provide my notes on the FF's cameos! 

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 08:52 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Kevin Wasser has the DD assignment and I just received an e-mail from him that he intends to post his synopsis soon. Kevin indicated that there are many clues in recent DD issues that help us nail down calendar placement. He appeared confident that these clues support the direction in which we were heading. We'll see...
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2004 05:21 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Hello gang, 

Sorry I haven't stopped by in about a week now, but as Paul noted, I've been in contact with him via email. I'm in the process of getting moved into my new place, and am still looking for a reliable internet connection. But anyway: 

Yes, I intend to post my writeup for the last few issues of Daredevil in the next few days, maybe as early as this weekend. I actually want to see the next issue of DD, (which should be released two Wednesday's from now) to confirm a few things, but if I finish my review before then, I'll post it, and then later post my thoughts on the next issue of DD after I get it. 

Moving on, I'll note that I have all 12 issues from the latest Inhumans series. I see Sean mentioned he could do a write up for it, and that's fine. Most of my time is devoted to Daredevil, Hulk, and Punisher. Just like Sean probably has some comments to chime in on the Venom synopsis, I can add any comments I have on Inhumans on top of his own.  

One thing about Inhumans I will note real fast is that I do recall at least one, (maybe two) offhand comments to events happening in the book Sentinel, (which I didn't collect). So if we could indeed get a review for Sentinel, that would be great, (it being the only book Inhumans had any connection to, both of them being set in Wisconsin and written by the same writer). 

I'm also going to try and start getting all of the Bendis titles, (I need to get the 1st issue of the Pulse) so I can try and keep track of the overall picture of all of the Bendis titles... 

Quote: 
>>>
He appeared confident that these clues support the direction in which we were heading. We'll see... 
<<<


Well, now you've got me wondering just what "direction" you guys are headed in...  
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2004 08:06 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

To quote my state motto, "forward!" And to quote a certain chronologist whose initials are KW, "Yes, indeed, I think this is all finally starting to come together." 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 50

Posted: 07 Jun 2004 04:04 pm    Post subject: NYX #1-4
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Incomplete, because there's still another two issues to go in the first arc. But for the benefit of the calendar... 

NYX #1 (11/03) 
NYX #2 (1/04) 
NYX #3 (2/04) 
NYX #4 (7/04) 

NYX #1, pages 1-4 (flashback). Alphabet City. Liz Nixon takes her daughter Kiden, son Ty and infant twins to visit her husband Pat, a police officer. As Pat goes off work, Liz leaves him to look after Kiden while she goes off to buy him a birthday cake. As Pat leaves the police station with Kiden, he is shot in a drive-by. 

Characters: Kiden Nixon, Pat Nixon, Liz Nixon, Tyler Nixon, the Nixon twins 

No date is given. It's Pat Nixon's birthday, but that doesn't assist. 

Kiden is drawn as a pre-pubescent girl in ringlets in this scene; Ty appears to be hitting puberty, and the twins are in pushchairs. Kiden is said to be sixteen in the modern day part of the issue, so presumably we can take it that this is around seven or eight years ago. 


* NYX #1, pages 5 to 7. Day 1. Night. Kiden Nixon and her friend Kara take drugs and dance in an unspecified nightclub. 

Characters: Kiden Nixon, Kara 

[The day before a schoolday. The present day.] 

* NYX #1, pages 8 to 24. Day 2. 7am: Kiden wakes up at the family home and talks to the family before heading to school. She visits Nino's newsagents. At school, she meets up with Kara. Kiden gets into a fight with the school bully, Hector Morales. After school, on their way home, they are attacked by Hector and his thugs. Kiden's mutant powers emerge, freezing time. When she touches Hector, time restarts, but Hector's arm is broken. Teacher Cameron Palmer is present throughout this. 

Characters: Kiden Nixon, Liz Nixon (Kiden's mother), Tyler Nixon (Kiden's brother), unnamed Nixon Twins, Nino, Hector Morales, Cameron Palmer 

[Obviously, a school day. Can't be Friday because Kiden's class are given an assignment for "tomorrow." The clock in the classroom says 8:23, but that's clearly wrong. Green trees.] 

* NYX #2, pages 1 to 16. Day 3. Breakfast. Cameron Palmer's husband Sam brings her breakfast in bed. Cameron is still disturbed by yesterday's events - she didn't realise that Kiden had superhuman powers, but feels something was wrong. (NB: We're never expressly told that Sam and Cameron are married; however, a torn wedding photo at the end of the issue shows Cameron in a wedding dress, so presumably they're meant to be married.) 

The Nixon household. Kiden eats breakfast while Liz confronts Tyler about drugs found in his room. Tyler denies knowing anything about them, so Liz flushes them down the toilet. Tyler is horrified and protests that "you just signed my death warrant." Kiden gets bored of the fighting and walks out. 

School. Hector arrives at school with his arm in a sling, looking for revenge. He bribes a security guard in order to bring a gun into school. Kiden is called to the Principal's office. Principal Weissman and Cameron ask her who started the fight, but she refuses to answer. The Principal suspects her of being on drugs, but lets her go. Afterwards, Kara catches up with Kiden in the school halls. Kiden tries to tell Kara about her powers but is interrupted by Hector, who draws his gun and fires on her. Kiden uses her powers to stop time. She sidesteps the bullet but when she touches Hector, time restarts. The bullet resumes moving and hits Cameron instead. 

Characters: Kiden Nixon, Cameron Palmer, Tyler Nixon, Liz Nixon, the Nixon twins, Sam Palmer, Hector Morales, Principal Sherman Weissman, Kara. 

[Cameron mentions that she's been teaching for two years. You never know, it might become relevant later on.] 

* NYX #4, page 5 panel 4 to page 6 panel 3, flashback. Direct continuation. Kiden flees the school in panic. She goes to the hospital, intending to check on Cameron's condition, but there are too many school staff there. Believing that the police will be looking for her at home and at school, Kiden decides to live on the streets. 

Characters: Kiden Nixon. 

[This segment leads into an extended flashback covering a period of several months and bridging the gap between pages 16-17 of NYX #2.] 

* NYX #4, page 6 panel 4 to page 8, flashback. A few days after? Kiden is sleeping in an alley when she's attacked by muggers. She freezes time and finally works out how to turn her powers on and off at will. (Time resumes when she touches someone. It also turns out that she doesn't absolutely freeze time, but slows it to a crawl.) Kiden finds that the longer she freezes time, the more euphoric she becomes. She decides to simply leave her powers on. 

Characters: Kiden Nixon. 

* Not depicted: Kiden leaves her powers on and, increasingly euphoric, walks out of New York. With her powers on, she does not require food or water. She continues wandering for three days, which she experiences as a period of four months. [Kiden explains this in voice-over.] 

* NYX #4, page 9 to page 10 panel 1, flashback. Three days after the previous scene. Kiden finds herself in Pittsburgh. Finally tiring of slowed time, she touches a homeless boy called Alex and time resumes. Alex introduces her to his "tribe", a group of homeless kids (none of whom are individually named). 

Characters: Kiden Nixon, Alex 

* NYX #4, page 10 panels 2-5, flashback. Montage sequence covering "the next five months." Kiden and Alex live on the streets of Pittsburgh. She claims that she's never been happier. 

Characters: Kiden Nixon, Alex 

* NYX #4, page 11 panel 1, flashback. Night. Kiden and Alex (and other tribe members) sit around a makeshift fire. According to the caption, "Alex decided he was homesick" - the implication is that this is him telling Kiden that he's going home. The trees are bare, so it's apparently now winter. Then again, they might just be dead. 

Characters: Kiden Nixon, Alex 

* NYX #4, page 11 panels 2 to 5, flashback. Another day. A railway yard. Kiden says goodbye to Alex as he gets on a train and heads home. She decides to return home as well. She phones home and somebody answers (with "hello") but she hangs up. She starts to hitch a lift back to New York. 

Characters: Kiden Nixon, Alex. 

* NYX #4, pages 12 and 13, flashback. After "a couple of days", Kiden arrives back home in Alphabet City. She meets Tyler and his friend Jerome. Tyler tells Kiden that things have gone well for the family while she's been away. Liz Nixon has met a new man and is about to remarry. The family will move to Long Island next month. Kiden irrationally decides that she family is better off without her, and leaves. Night (possibly a different day); Kiden tries to sleep in an alley and is visited for the first time by the ghost of her father Pat. 

Characters: Kiden Nixon, Tyler Nixon, Jerome, Pat Nixon 

* NYX #2, pages 17 to 22. Around "six months" after Cameron was shot. Cameron is on long-term sick leave and is sitting, depressed, in her apartment. Something has happened to Sam, but exactly what isn't specified - it's strongly implied that he's either dead or he's left her. Principal Weissman comes by to try and persuade her to come back. Cameron says that "I can't ever go back", without really explaining why. Weissman leaves. Later, Kiden arrives at the flat. When nobody answers the door, she goes in anyway. She finds Cameron has attempted suicide. [Subsequent issues confirm that Kiden was sent to Cameron's apartment by Pat. This is apparently the same night as the flasback in issue #4, page 13.] 

Characters: Kiden Nixon, Cameron Palmer, Sherman Weissman 

* NYX #3, pages 1 to 12. Same night. In a cheap New York hotel, prostitute X-23 sits in silence as her customer dresses and leaves. [NB: X-23 is never named in the story itself. However, it's the name used for her on the recap page in issue #4.] 

Cameron's flat. Cameron is taken to hospital (after Kiden phoned for an ambulance). Kiden dodges questions about how she knows Cameron, but asks to go to hospital with her. 

The corner of 34th Street and Park Avenue. Night, heavy rain. X-23 is waiting for business but is picked up by her pimp, Zebra Daddy. 

NYU Hospital. Kiden sits by Cameron's bedside. Eventually Cameron comes round. 

The Flatiron District. Zebra Daddy takes X-23 to a party. He is annoyed to see that she is cutting herself. Before he can investigate further, he gets a phone call to tell him that an important client is in town. He calls over another prostitute, Jade, to deal with him. Jade protests that the last time she dealt with this client, he hospitalised her. Zebra Daddy beats her up and sends her anyway. 

Characters: Kiden Nixon, Cameron Palmer, X-23, Zebra Daddy, Jade, X-23's customer. 

* NYX #3, pages 13 to 17. A few days later? Cameron's apartment. Cameron and Kiden eat together. Kiden finally tries to explain that she's a mutant and that Hector was trying to shoot her. Cameron dismisses most of this as fantasy. After some squabbling, she lets Kiden stay the night, but threatens to call Child Services in the morning if Kiden does not visit her parents. 

Characters: Kiden Nixon, Cameron Palmer 

* NYX #3, pages 18-20. The same night, past midnight. Cameron's apartment. Kiden has a dream where her father tells her to go to Hotel Brasil, Room 202. Kiden notes down the address and races off to the hotel. Cameron hears the disturbance, wakes up, and sees the address written down (through the ink impression on the page below). 

X-23 is in a hotel room with the same client we saw at the beginning of the issue. He says that he "wants to try something new" and produces a knife. 

Characters: X-23, her client, Kiden Nixon, Cameron Palmer 

* NYX #4, pages 19-20, flashback. Direct continuation. After drawing the knife, her client said that "I've done some very bad things in my life. Please tell my wife, tell my children, I'm sorry." Then he killed himself with the knife. [This is X-23's version of events, as told to Cameron and Kiden. It may be fabricated.] 

Characters: X-23, her client. 

* NYX #3, pages 21-23. Direct continuation. Kiden and Cameron race to Room 202 and find X-23 crouched over the body of her client. He is lying dead in a pool of blood on the floor. X-23 has two Wolverine-link claws extending from her left hand, and has apparently been using them to cut her own right arm, which is bleeding from claw marks. 

Characters: X-23, her client (deceased), Kiden Nixon, Cameron Palmer 

* NYX #4. The next day. Afternoon - a girl called Tatiana visits various shops, performs errands, and collects food. She goes back to a ruined building and feeds a large number of animals who are apparently her pets. Green trees, and it's apparently spring. 

Kiden, Cameron and X-23 eat in a cafe. Kiden recounts what she was doing during her six month absence from New York. According to Kiden, her father says that she and Cameron need one another, but she does not know why. Cameron is sceptical. X-23 denies killing the client. 

Tatiana returns home to her family apartment in the Bronx and is met by even more pets. She talks with her sister Laurie. Their mother arrives home with a man called Rueben in tow, who looks rather disreputable. Tatiana's parrot Barretta attacks Reuben, and he thwacks it into a wall. 

Back at Cameron's apartment, Cameron, Kiden and X-23 are still talking. Kiden begins to panic as her father's ghost appears on the sofa. 

Characters: Kiden Nixon, Cameron Palmer, X-23, Pat Nixon, Tatiana, Laurie, Tatania's mother, Reuben, Senora Ventura, Mr Ferrara, Barretta
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

Last edited by Paul O'Brien on 08 Jun 2004 01:08 am; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2004 06:00 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Eek! 

You mean "NYX #1-4" ... not "X-23 #1-4"... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jun 2004 09:31 pm    Post subject: NYX
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, Paul, for the analysis. I have added these four issues of NYX to the calendar, running from October of the last MU year to April of the current year. I think I'll just relegate that four-panel, five-month-long flashback montage in issue #4 to a single day in November to make life simpler.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 01:08 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Fortunately, I can change the thread title...
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 04:44 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I would have just touched it up, but I didn't feel right editing another mod's post without their consent. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 51

Posted: 10 Jun 2004 04:50 pm    Post subject: Silver Surfer #7-9
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

This is a storyline still in progress, but Paul Bourcier requested it for the calendar:- 

REVELATION 
SILVER SURFER #7 (May 2004) by Dan Chariton, Stacy Weiss and Lan Medina 
SILVER SURFER #8 (June 2004) by Chariton, Weiss and Medina 
SILVER SURFER #9 (July 2004) by Chariton, Weiss and Medina 
With further parts to follow. 

Synopsis: 

SILVER SURFER #7, pages 1-2, flashback. "Over a hundred million years ago." Advanced civilisations live on Mars and its sister planet Tiamat. "For reasons long forgotten", the two civilisations go to war. 

The Silver Surfer goes on to explain that Mars was left a desolate wasteland, and its people were wiped out. Tiamat was destroyed and became part of the asteroid belt. 

SILVER SURFER #7, page 4, panels 1-2, flashback. Later. The alien Annunaki - who allegedly seeded intelligent life on Mars and Tiamat in the first place - return to Mars and mourn the death of its people. 

SILVER SURFER #7, page 4, panel 3 to page 5 panel 1, flashback. Some time later. ("In time...") On Earth, the dinosaurs become extinct and mammals emerge to replace them. According to the Surfer's commentary, "The Earth was ready for the development of consciousness." The art shows three Annunaki aliens apparently showering a pre-human ape with energy. 

The implication is that they are in the process of advancing human evolution to the stage of intelligence. 

Somewhere around this time, as revealed later in issue #7, the Annunaki create Marduk - an artificial planet created to preserve life in the solar system. It destroys dangerous civilisations in order to save their planets as a whole. 

SILVER SURFER #7, pages 15-17, flashback. "Long before [human] civilisation was born." Great kingdoms exist on earth with very advanced technology. They grow corrupt and degenerate into endless war. As programmed, Marduk arrives and destroys the warring kingdoms by flooding them. 

While the names aren't used, the obvious implication is that Marduk is responsible for sinking Atlantis and Lemuria. 

SILVER SURFER #7, pages 1-18. Direct continuation from the end of issue #6. Space. The Silver Surfer takes Gabe Acheron to the asteroid belt and tells him about Mars and Tiamat. 

Denise's home in New Orleans. Night. The soldiers storm the building and seize Ellis. Ellie screams. Everyone's eyes glow and they are knocked out. Ellie then revives Denise and Elvis by laying on of hands. Denise, Elvis and Ellie leave. 

New Orleans airport. Stewart Acheron arrives on a private flight with his PA Apryl. Stewart meets with Dick Cheney, and they agree on the importance of containing Ellie. 

Outer space. The Silver Surfer takes Gabe to the artificial planet Marduk and explains what it is. The Surfer says that Marduk is slowly making its way to earth once again. It will arrive in around six months, when it will destroy human civilisation for the greater good of the Earth. Marduk cannot be stopped, but by taking gifted children away from Earth, the Surfer hopes that they can return afterwards and lead a new world. 

Characters: Silver Surfer, Gabe Acheron, Denise Waters, Ellie Waters, Elvis Morin, Stewart Acheron, Apryl, Dick Cheney 

SILVER SURFER #7, pages 19-21. Next day. Ellie, Denise and Elvis are on the road together. News reports say that Ellie killed thirteen of the soldiers. Elvis is torn as to whether to turn her in. 

Characters: Denise Waters, Ellie Waters, Elvis Morin 

SILVER SURFER #8. Some time later. The Silver Surfer takes Gabe to the utopian planet Sof in the Sirius system. According to the Surfer, the inhabitants of Sof are "distant cousins" of the human race. They came to Sof after their own homeworld was destroyed. Aya, a native, gives Gabe a tour and delivers some homilies. Meanwhile, the Silver Surfer drinks honey wine with Aya's husband Aman. The whole thing is cloyingly sweet. 

Later, Aya and Aman merge into a single being, Ayaman, who apparently has authority to speak on behalf of their world's "Council." The Surfer is working under the Council's directions. Ayaman tells the Surfer that the Council's plans have changed. The children are to be brought to Sof, so that they can live there. Earth is doomed to die, and the Council have given up hope of saving it. The human race will destroy the planet before Marduk even gets there. Helpfully for plot purposes, Ayaman clarifies that the Council is working on the basis of its three precognitives - they all agree on the end result but are unclear on how it will come to pass. The Surfer is discomfited. 

Houma, Louisiana. Denise, Ellie and Elvis have moved in with Annie Laronde in her remote cottage in the bayou. Elvis sneaks out and phones Poirier. Poirier reluctantly hands over the call to a woman called Agent Callamaro, who has apparently been hanging around the precinct waiting for Elvis to phone in. Callamaro tells Elvis that Ellie is "an alien in a human body." If she is not brought in, she will kill again. 

Elvis returns to Annie's home to find Denise and Ellie meditating together, and telepathically linked. Elvis and Annie interrupt the link, much to the annoyance of Denise, who felt she was close to understanding what is going on. Elvis heads outside again and calls Callamaro on his cellphone. 

Characters: Silver Surfer, Gabe Acheron, Aya, Aman, Ayaman, Denise Waters, Ellie Waters, Elvis Morin, Annie Laronde, Lt Poirier, Agent Callamaro. 

SILVER SURFER #9, pages 1 to 11. Next day (confirmed by Denise's narration). Sof. Gabe spends time with Laliya, an 11-year-old girl. Much cloying sweetness ensues until Gabe is told that he cannot remain on Sof and must return with the Surfer. 

9.36pm. Housa, Louisiana. Dark, full moon. Elvis sneaks into Denise and Ellie's bedroom. He injects Ellie with a sedative. Soon, soldiers arrive, and Ellie is taken away in a containment unit. Stewart Acheron is with the soldiers, and phones Dick Cheney to thank him for his help. Elvis has mixed feelings about his actions, but Callamaro gives him his payoff. 

The Surfer and Gabe make their way back to the moon complex. Gabe says that following his visit to Sof, he now wants to help change the Earth. The Surfer doesn't tell Gabe about the change of plans. 

On returning to the moon complex, the Surfer tells Amnel about the change of plan. They are to leave in "three days." Amnel is appalled. The Surfer calmly resumes looking for other children. 

Characters: Gabe Acheron, Laliya, Denise Waters, Ellie Waters, Elvis Morin, Annie Laronde, Stewart Acheron, Dick Cheney, Agent Callamaro, Amnel 

SILVER SURFER #9, pages 12 to 21. Next day? Gabe goes to classes with the other children. The kids have noticed the alien activity and one of them, an embittered cyborg who isn't named, wonders whether Marduk is coming. The cyborg boy is happy for Marduk to wipe out earth but annoyed by what he sees as favouritism shown to Gabe by the Surfer. 

Ellie wakes up in a hospital surrounded by people in containment suits. She panics and screams. 

Denise wakes in Annie's home; it's daylight. Elvis has disappeared. Denise takes Annie's truck and drives off in pursuit. As she drives, Denise prays for Elvis to die. She loses control of the truck, drives off the road, and is impaled on a tree. There is a flash of light, and she appears on a table in front of the aliens at the moon complex. 

Characters: Gabe Acheron, the cyborg boy, Ellie Waters, Denise Waters, Annie Laronde
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2004 08:58 pm    Post subject: But Lemuria and Atlantis WERE human
By Scathach80

"SILVER SURFER #7, pages 15-17, flashback. "Long before [human] civilisation was born." Great kingdoms exist on earth with very advanced technology. They grow corrupt and degenerate into endless war. As programmed, Marduk arrives and destroys the warring kingdoms by flooding them. 

While the names aren't used, the obvious implication is that Marduk is responsible for sinking Atlantis and Lemuria." 

Marduk will have to get in line. Actually, Atlantis and Lemuria were human civilizations. Perhaps this was an event that preceded Kull's life? 

Here is an compilation on the various sinking of Atlantis stories. 

http://www.captaincomics.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=2150&hl=Kull

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 02:43 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

To be fair to the writers, I've misquoted them in saying "Long before [human] civilisation was born." The Surfer actually says "Long before YOUR civilisation was born", and he's talking to Gabe. So he might well be referring to an earlier human civilisation. 

All of this, of course, is third-hand hearsay - the Surfer has obviously picked up this story from somebody else somewhere along the line. So it might be hugely inaccurate for all we know. Then again, it can't be total nonsense, because Marduk certainly exists.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 04:34 pm    Post subject: The Pulse #1-2
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Paul B. was after these ... I know we can look forward to a full write-up from Kevin at the end of the arc, but I hope this helps in the interim. 

-Jeph! 

-------- 

the Pulse #1 
"Thin Air" part 1 

This issue takes place over a single day. 

The issue opens with Ben Urich reading that morning's Daily Bugle. The lead story details how a battle between Spider-Man and Doc Ock cost the life of a bystander (Emma Stern, age 46). Meanwhile, Ben's piece about Yakuza violence in Hell's Kitchen was relegated to page 17-c. Meanwhile, in Central Park, a body floats in the water, and Jessica Jones goes to the Bugle for a job interview, where Jonah pitches a new section of the paper spotlighting super-heroes, to be called "The Pulse". That night, Jonah takes Ben Urich off the City desk and pitches him the same section, and the body is fished out of the water 

Pp.1-6 take place at dawn. 
Pp.7-16 take place in the morning  around 9-10am. 
P.17 takes place in the late afternoon  the body has been in the water "all day". 
Pp.18-22 take place after sundown. 

I had originally thought that the article on p.1, Spidey vs. Doc Ock, was a reference to Spidey's pursuit of Doc Ock in Alias #15  the paper references him carrying "a bright yellow metal canister under his left arm", and I know how Bendis likes to reference his own stories  but in Alias #15, Ock was carrying some piece of grey machinery under his *right* arm  and the Human Torch was in pursuit of him as well. 

And it's a good thing, too  since Pulse #1 takes place by neccessity after Alias #28  and Ben Urich is reading that day's paper, reporting the previous day's events. If Bendis was trying to tell us that Alias #15-28 were all the day before the Pulse #1, I'd have issues. 

On the other hand, the story about Yakuza violence in Hell's Kitchen IS a reference to Daredevil v2 #56-57. It seems that Pulse #1 occurs the day after DD fought the Yakuza in those issues. I don't have those issues, but Ben Urich appears in them as well  hopefully Kevin will have a better time integrating Ben Urich in Pulse #1-2 with DD2 #56-57 and upwards. (He appears here in pretty much all the scenes, dawn to nighttime.) 

Clocks in the Bugle newsroom on pp.8-9 show that it's around ten past something, but since each clock is a different time zone, I don't know what. I'm guessing mid-morning  9-10 am. Video monitors in the newsroom show footage of Captain America, the Human Torch, the Hulk , and Daredevil fighting what looks like the Owl. Unknown if these are live or recordings. 

Green leaves on trees. 

No other temporal references. It's probably before Friday, though  Pulse #2 takes place the day BEFORE #1, and has a line where Terri Kidder fears being fired "by Friday". 

Appearances: 
Ben Urich 
Kat Farrell (BTS, she wrote that day's Bugle cover story) 
Spider-Man (BTS, story describes his fight with Doc Ock) 
Doctor Octopus (BTS, story describes his fight with Spider-Man) 
Emma Stern (BTS, story describes her death) 
Terri Kidder (the body in the water, as revealed next issue) 
Luke Cage 
Jessica Jones 
(Jessica's unborn child, BTS  assuming the child ever gets named in the comics) 
Joseph "Robbie" Robertson 
J. Jonah Jameson 
Officer Burman, NYPD 

-------- 

the Pulse #2 
"Thin Air" part 2 

This issue takes place in a single business day, from 3:15pm to around 7pm  the day BEFORE Pulse #1. The issue begins with a caption reading "Yesterday". There's a full moon, of course. 

The issue opens with Terri Kidder, who's worked for the Bugle for two weeks but hasn't yet produced a substantial story, worrying that she'll be fired. She does a piece on the Avengers for Jonah's " 100 most powerful people in Manhattan" feature, but Jonah chews her out. Later that day Terri is scopped by Fox News on a Spider-Man/Vulture battle. That evening, at a dinner with a friend who works at Oscorp, Terri hears that a few Oscorp staffers have gone missing over the last week. Terri gets a quick interview with Norman Osborn before a reception he has at 8pm, but when she asks him about the missing people, he strangles her to death and  as the Green Goblin -- dumps her body in the Central Park reservoir 

Pp.1-7 take place at 3:15pm. 
Pp.8-9 take place at 4pm (in Jonah's 4pm meeting). 
Pp.10-13 take place at the start of sundown (Fox News labels it as "in broad daylight", so it's still early sundown). 
Pp.14-18 take place at 5:45pm. 
Pp.19-23 take place sometime before Osborn's 8pm reception (late sundown outside). 
P.24 takes place after night has fallen. It might continue straight from p.23, or might occur after Osborn's 8pm reception. On the other hand, if sundown began before 5:45, night might well have fallen by 8pm. 

The fact that sundown began before 5:45 might also be a clue what time of year this is (late fall/winter/early spring)  although issue #1, occuring the next day, has green leaves on the trees. 

As I said before, in this issue Terri worries about being fired "by Friday". I'm inferring from this that it's between Monday and Wednesday in this issue  not Thursday, or she might have said "by tomorrow". Its a regular business day, as Terri's friend Sheryl worked her regular job at Oscorp that day. 

Clocks in the Bugle newsroom on pp.2-3 show that it's 15 past some hour, and Terri Kidder says that it's 3pm  so I'm assuming it's 3:15 when the issue opens. Monitors in the newsroom play footage of Thor in what looks like his classic helmet, Mister Fantastic (or just a reporter with the "4" logo behind him), and someone blue with a lightning bolt on his chest. Again, unknown if these are live or recordings  the only helpful one might be Thor in his classic look. 

According to Kat Farrell, Jonah hasn't spoken to Urich in "over a month". And this is probably unhelpful, but Urich "nailed all that Kingpin stuff" "a billion years ago". What story does that refer to? It's not DD2 #50, is it? 

There's no indication what the current Avengers lineup is here  Terri turns in a stock photo of the classic founders. 

So apparently, per Pulse #1-2, Spider-Man fought both the Vulture and Doc Ock on the same day. I don't exactly know which fight came first, but Fox News, covering the Vulture fight live, doesn't mention anything about a bystander being injured in the Doc Ock fight  although they DO mention the Vulture robbing a museum earlier that day. From that omission, I'm assuming that the Doc Ock fight occurs later that evening. (He fought the Vulture at Port Authority, and chased Doc Ock "up 8th Avenue", for what it's worth.) 

Which in turn means that Kat Farrell's write-up of the Spidey/Ock fight (her BTS appearance from #1) occurs *after* her appearance in this issue 

And finally, remember that there's some Pulse/DD2 Ben Urich overlap to deal with. He appears here from 3:15-4pm. 

Appearances: 
Terri Kidder 
J. Jonah Jameson 
Kat Farrell 
Joseph "Robbie" Robertson 
Ben Urich 
Spider-Man 
the Vulture 
Terri's friend Sheryl at Oscorp (full name to possibly be revealed later in the arc?) 
Finkelblatt, Oscorp R&D (BTS  Sheryl mentions that he vanished this past week.) 
Kirby, Oscorp security (BTS  Sheryl mentions that he vanished just that day.) 
the Green Goblin 

And it looks like Peter Parker was at Jonah's 4pm meeting (just prior to him fighting the Vulture between 4-5:45pm). Any other Bugle faces at that meeting that I'm unfamiliar with?

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 08:52 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
hopefully Kevin will have a better time integrating Ben Urich in Pulse #1-2 with DD2 #56-57 and upwards 
<<<

Kevin's previous report has Ben chatting with Milla in a diner in DD2 56-57 and I believe this is the same day as PULSE 1 (aka the day after PULSE 2). But we'll see what Kevin says about the relative timing of Ben's appearances in PULSE 1-2. 


Quote: 
>>>
So apparently, per Pulse #1-2, Spider-Man fought both the Vulture and Doc Ock on the same day.  
<<<

Could Spidey's battle with Vulture be the one from Spider-Man Unlimited v2 #3/2? Could Spidey's battle with Doc Ock be from Spider-Man/Dr. Octopus: Out of Reach? Curiously, my calendar currently has tentative PULSE and OUT OF REACH placements within days of each other. And the placement of SMU2 3/2 is pretty flexible.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2004 04:14 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Kevin's previous report has Ben chatting with Milla in a diner in DD2 56-57 and I believe this is the same day as PULSE 1 (aka the day after PULSE 2). 
<<<


Correct, (from what I can tell anyway). I have events happening like this: 

Day 1: (I'll let Paul fill in dates and page breakdowns): 

Jonah holds his conference from Pulse #2, (Ben Urick is there). Later that night, while the Green Goblin is disposing of the reporter's corpse, the Yakuza attack Matt Murdock. After the battle, the FBI haul off most of the Yakuza, and Matt has disappeared. We know Ben is later at the scene of the battle, interviewing witnesses to the battle, going by comments in DD#57. 

Day 2: The events of The Pulse #1 happen. Ben reads the Bugle that morning, to find his Yakuza story isn't front page news. Sometime later on, during daylight hours, Ben meets with Milla, and agrees to help her find Matt, (we know it's daylight hours because sunlight is filtering into the restaurant window where they are meeting. Now just what time of day, I don't know...). 

Now here's where it gets tricky: Going by the way DD#58 reads, after escorting Milla to a safehouse, Ben goes and talks to Foggy Nelson at his office. He then later on goes down to "The Night Nurses" location and finds Matt. 

But according to Jeph's notes of The Pulse #1, Ben is offered the job to work on The Pulse this same night. So does he go talk to J. Jameson first, then go talk to Foggy and then find Matt? Or vice versa? Jeph, could you give a more detailed explanation of what happens in pages 18 to 22 of Pulse #1? It might help determine what makes most sense from Ben's point of view. Unless I'm reading all of this wrong. I'll let you guys go over my notes from DD and decide. 

The DD storyline then cuts to "9 days later" but the Pulse storyline continues onto the next day, (after they fish the body out of the resevior). 

Paul, do you want a review for Pulse #3 and 4? Issue 3 is already out, and Issue 4 comes out next Wednesday. I'm sure Jeph or myself or somebody wouldn't mind giving a review...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2004 10:14 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

You betcha! The calendar won't start to roll out until after I add notes from next week's comics, so go for it. Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Jun 2004 10:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
Terri Kidder 


Ha, ha, ha.  Named after two actresses who played Lois Lane!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 10:16 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Kevin, I don't have the issues anymore -- I borrowed them from a friend.  And neither she nor I plan to continue buying the series, so I can't continue the analyses... 

What I can say about the Jonah/Urich scene on pp.#18-22 of Pulse #1 is that it looks like everyone's gone straight to a bar from work. They're all in rolled-up work shirt sleeves. Does that help? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 03:09 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Well, I got to thinking, and the scene in DD#58 with Ben meeting up with Foggy Nelson could happen during daylight office hours, (Foggy was at the office, as was his secretary). Even though we don't see outside (through a window for instance) in this scene, it could be daylight. 

So Ben could end his meeting with Milla, go see Foggy, then meet up in a bar with Jonah, get offered the Pulse, then go to the Night Nurses' place... 

Or something like that...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 03:11 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
You betcha! The calendar won't start to roll out until after I add notes from next week's comics, so go for it. Thanks. 
<<<

Okay, I'll do it in the next few days.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 05:20 pm    Post subject: Emma Frost #7-12
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The second story arc is now complete, and actually, it's pretty good... 

MIND GAMES 
EMMA FROST #7-12 (March to August 2004) 
by Karl Bollers, Carlo Pagulayan and Dennis Crisostomo 

GENERAL COMMENTS: 
Some time must have passed since the previous arc - it's now "nine years ago", compared to ten at the beginning of issue #1. Having said that, the previous arc covered several months. In issue #11, when the police ask Winston how long Emma has been away, he can't even remember: "I believe it's been three, maybe four months. Or is it closer to five?" 

SYNOPSIS: 
* EMMA FROST #7, pages 1-12. "Nine years ago." Boston. Day 1. Emma is working in a clothing boutique. After squabbling with an obnoxious client, she is fired. As Emma leaves, her narration tells us that this is the third job she's been fired from in the past two weeks. She returns home to the cheap hotel where she is staying and uses her severance pay to clear her debt. She begs Lou, the clerk, to let her stay until she can get another job; however, she has no more money. Lou asks for sexual favours, and Emma fends him off. 

Emma heads out to a newsstand and browses the classified ads. She discovers that she can telepathically trick the owner into seeing a penny as a quarter, and buys a paper with her change. Emma tries to use the same trick to get free food at a restaurant, but while the waitress is fooled, the Maitre D' isn't. Emma is put to work in the kitchen washing dishes, and meets employee Troy Killkelly. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Elaine (her employer), Ms Throckmorton (the customer), Lou (the hotel clerk), Troy Killkelly. 

* EMMA FROST #7, pages 13-20. Day 2. 4.03am - Emma and Troy sit and talk. Troy offers to let Emma stay at his flat. She accepts. 

"Later that morning", they collect Emma's belongings from the hotel. They head to Troy's flat. When they get there, they find two thugs, Milo and Stu, waiting for Troy. Troy owes ten thousand dollars to their boss, Lucien. Emma tries to fend off Milo and Stu telepathically, but she panics and loses focus. 

10.32pm, Boston Medical Center. Emma meets Troy as he leaves the hospital (with a bandaged nose but apparently no other injuries). Troy explains that he owes money to local loan shark Lucien Goff. They return to Troy's flat, where Troy comes up with a plan. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Troy Kilkelly, Milo, Stu 

* EMMA FROST #7, pages 21 to 22. Day 3. Posing as socialites, Troy and Emma enter a casino. (This is the first time that we see Emma with her hair dyed blonde. They definitely arrive before midnight, because by the start of issue #8, Troy has been gambling "for hours.") 

Characters: Emma Frost, Troy Killkelly 

* EMMA FROST #8. Day 4, 1.06am. Troy tries to win the money he needs at poker. Instead, he just loses even more money. Emma and Troy leave together. 

Afternoon, back at Troy's apartment. Emma persuades Troy to return to the casino so that she can try and win the money. She demonstrates how she can read his mind to know what cards he's holding. Troy naturally thinks her plan is fantastic. Milo and Stu turn up again, but Emma senses them coming. She and Troy flee down the fire escape. 

Eventually, Troy leaves to go to his work (for the dinner shift). Emma sees Milo and Stu go into the restaurant after him. She telepathically freezes them in spot so that Troy can knock them out with a frying pan. 

11.59pm. Troy and Emma return to the casino. Emma plays poker and, of course, wins an enormous amount of money simply by reading the other players' minds. [Midnight falls between pages 20-21 - or possibly during the lengthy dialogue on page 20.] 

Characters: Emma Frost, Troy Kilkelly, Milo, Stu. 

* EMMA FROST #9, pages 1-14. Day 5, daybreak. On leaving the casino, Emma and Troy get a taxi direct to the premises of Lucien, the loan shark. It seems they've been celebrating all night - the colouring suggests that it's dawn. Troy gives Lucien $10,000 in cash, repaying his loan. Lucien tells Troy that he still owes $5,000 in interest, and gives him until the next day to come up with it. 

Emma and Troy return to Troy's apartment. It's now daylight. Milo and Stu have trashed the apartment. The landlord tells Troy that he's a danger to the other tenants, and throws him out. Troy begins to pack, intending to flee town. But Emma persuades him to simply return to the casino that night. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Troy Kilkelly, Lucien, Milo, Stu 

* EMMA FROST #9, pages 15-23. Day 6, just past midnight. 12.06am. Emma and Troy have arrived at the casino only to find that there's a poker tournament on that night, and Emma can't enter. After confirming that her powers can't affect fruit machines, Emma goes for simple fraud: she telepathically tricks a clerk into thinking that she's got five thousand dollars worth of chips, and then cashes them in. Unfortunately, Emma doesn't influence anyone else's mind, and the other staff assume that the clerk and Emma are trying to defraud the casino. The clerk is fired, and Emma is thrown out. 

3.10am. As Emma and Troy leave, they're picked up by Milo and Stu. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Troy Kilkelly, Milo, Stu 

* EMMA FROST #10, pages 1-13. Still day 6. Milo and Stu bring Emma and Troy to Lucien's garage headquarters. When Troy reveals that he doesn't have the money, Lucien orders him killed. In desperation, Troy comes up with a plan: they'll pretend to hold Emma hostage and demand ransom money from the Frost family. That way, Lucien will make far more than five thousand dollars. Lucien agrees. Emma is reluctant, but Troy talks her round. 

Later. Lucien's girlfriend Petal reports that she's looked into the Frost family on the web, and they're as wealthy as Troy said. Lucien brings in Bazz, a film student who owes him money. They film a video with Emma chained in a cage. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Troy Kilkelly, Lucien, Milo, Stu, Petal, Bazz 

* EMMA FROST #10, pages 14-23. Day 7. Winston and Adrienne meet in his office. Winston suspects Adrienne of embezzling from the company. ("Again.") They're interrupted by the delivery of the video ransom. On it, Lucien demands that Winston leave a written response in a PO box in the next two hours, failing which Emma will be killed. Adrienne immediately recognises the ransom as a hoax because of her mutant powers, but can't explain why she distrusts it without revealing her powers. Winston responds by sending a video tape in reply. He refuses to pay anything for Emma's release, and says that she's dead to him already. Adrienne takes the ransom tape to Samuel Sampat, a news producer, and gives it to him to air. 

Characters: Adrienne Frost, Winston Frost, Emma Frost, Troy Kilkelly, Lucien, Milo, Stu, Petal, Samuel Sampat 

* EMMA FROST #11. Day 8. 4.07am, the news studios. Sampat is worried about broadcasting the tape on the morning news, because Lucien claims on the tape that he'll kill Emma if there is any publicity. Adrienne reminds him of the glorious ratings. Sampat is won over. 

4.29am. Lucien's garage. Lucien is throwing a tantrum about Winston's response. Troy tries to create a distraction so that Emma can escape, but it doesn't work. Emma briefly reads Lucien's mind and we get a montage flashback to his life - none of it's remotely important, so I won't bother with it. A fight breaks out, and Lucien shoots Troy dead. 

7.15am. The Frost family home. Adrienne arrives back home, while Cordelia, Hazel and Winston gather for breakfast. The tape airs on the morning news. Hazel is drugged up to the eyeballs and doesn't even recognise Emma. Cordelia is genuinely shocked by her parents' reaction. Winston immediately realises that Adrienne has released the tape to the media, and hits her. Now that the tape has gone public, he says, he will have to pay off the kidnappers in order to avoid bad publicity. 

Lucien's group learn that the tape has been on the TV. Lucien decides to cut off part of Troy's ear and send it as a warning. 

Noon, the Frost house. Lieutenants Church and Pascal of the Boston Police arrive to meet the family, while the police gather outside. A package from Lucien arrives, with the severed ear and a lock of Emma's hair. Adrienne verifies the hair as Emma's. 

2.02pm. (The art seems to show a night sky, but that doesn't fit the timeline or the caption.) Lucien despatches Milo and Stu to dispose of Troy's body. Winston appears on TV again, giving a press conference in which he promises to pay the kidnappers. 

Characters: Adrienne Frost, Samuel Sampat, Emma Frost, Troy Kilkelly, Lucien, Milo, Stu, Petal, Bazz, Cordelia Frost, Hazel Frost, Winston Frost, Lt Church, Lt Pascal 

* EMMA FROST #12. Still day 8. Direct continuation - just after 2pm. Winston continues his press conference, on the steps of the Frost home. He tells Emma to give the kidnappers his contact details. Emma duly gives them Winston's private e-mail address, and contact is made. They tell Winston to drop the money in a locker at South Station. On prompting from the police, Winston replies suggesting that he pay part now and part when Emma is released. Lucien agrees to take $160K up front, with the remainder after Emma is released. Privately, Lucien has no plans to pick up the second instalment, which he knows is a set-up. He's happy enough with the $160K. 

Milo and Stu return, having disposed of Troy's body. Emma realises that Lucien has no intention of releasing her - he's going to collect the first instalment, kill her, and disappear. She manages to use her telepathy to sow doubt among all the gang as to each others' loyalty. When Winston e-mails to say that the money is ready to pick up, Lucien turns on his gang and decides to collect it all himself. A stand-off ensues, and Lucien, Milo, Stu and Petal manage to kill one another. Bazz emerges from hiding and unlocks Emma. She uses her telepathy to handcuff him to the cage, and leaves, planning to call the police anonymously. 

7.30pm. Emma goes to South Station and uses her telepathy to make sure the police don't see her. She goes to the locker and steals the money for herself. With the $160K in a suitcase, she boards a bus to New York. 

Characters: Emma Frost, Lucien, Milo, Stu, Petal, Bazz, Winston Frost, Adrienne Frost, Hazel Frost, Cordelia Frost, Lt Church, Lt Pascal
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 54

Posted: 13 Jun 2004 12:09 pm    Post subject: Inhumans #1-6
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

OK, here's a look at the latest Inhumans series. The indicia says "vol. 6" but it's only "vol. 4" by my count. I think the difference stems from two Inhumans series that were actually titled "Inhumans: The Great Refuge" and "Inhumans Special." In any event, it looks like all of this takes place in the fall, with no references to events happening in the rest of the MU... 

INHUMANS #1 
pp. 1- 7 
A ball game is being played on the moon. Appearances by San, Nallo, Tonaja, Alaris 

pp. 8-10 
The next day at the Royal Palace. Several inhumans are subjected to the Terrigan Mists. Appearances by Black Bolt, Medusa, Carthus, Alaris, San, San's father 

pp. 9-13 
"Several days later..." San and Nallo watch a NASA shuttle land on the moon. Appearances by San, Nallo 

pp. 14-15 
"Later..." It appears to be evening, but that's mainly from internal lighting. Appearances by San, San's father 

pp. 16-20 
San goes around moping and is summoned to the Royal Palace. Possibly the next day, but the captions run as a continuous narrative. Appearances by San, Gorgon, Alaris, Senschi 

INHUMANS #2 
p. 1 
Text recap of last issue 

pp. 2-4 
"Sunset" likely of the same day as the end of last issue. Tonaja is summoned to the Palace. Appearances by Tonaja, Senschi, Dewoz 

pp. 5-8 
At the Royal Palace "days" after the shuttle landed. The Inhumans kids receive their mission. Appearances by Black Bolt, Medusa, Gorgon, Lockjaw, Tonaja, Alaris, San, Nahrees, Jolen, Karnak 

pp. 9-11 
Tonaja mopes, evidently the same day. Appearances by Tonaja, Dewoz 

pp. 12-13 
"The next day." The Inhumans meet with a U.S. ambassador. Appearances by Michael Abrams, Medusa, Nahrees, San, Tonaja, Alaris, Jolen, Carthus 

pp. 14-17 
The last day before the kids leave; Tonaja confronts Gorgon. Appearances by Gorgon, Tonaja 

pp. 18-19 
"Sunset" that evening. Appearances by Tonaja, Dewoz 

pp. 20-22 
Morning the next day. The Inhumans leave for Earth. Note that this is the same shuttle from earlier. It appears as if it has been docked this entire time. Appearances by Nallo, San, Tonaja, Dewoz, San's father. Behind-the-Scenes: Nahrees, Alaris, Jolen 

INHUMANS #3 
p. 1 
Text recap 

pp. 2-5 
Continuation from last issue, but apparently much later that day. The shuttle is still in flight. Appearances by Alaris, un-named Captain 

pp. 6-8 
Shuttle lands and is reported on the news. Appearances by San, Tonaja, Nahress, Jolen, Alaris, an unidentified rich guy with a butler 

pp. 9-19 
The Inhumans move into a house on fraternity row of the University of Wisconsin. It's written as more-or-less continuous, but there could be a few conceivable breaks here if necessary. Appearances by Alaris, San, Nahrees, Jolen, Tonaja 

pp. 20-23 
"Hours later..." it's clearly nightime. A full moon is shown. Appearances by Alaris, San 

INHUMANS #4 
p. 1 
Text recap 

pp. 2-8 
Classes at U of WI. A student is clearly lost and asking for many directions, suggesting it's the start of the school year. It's certainly the start of the term as there are several references to the first day of classes. Appearances by Tonaja, San, Alaris, Nahrees, Jolen, Tasha 

pp. 9-13 
Alaris out on the town. A student refers to it still being the first week of classes. Appaerances by Alaris, Nahrees, Tasha, Brett, Scott, Myatt 

pp. 14-23 
The rest of the issue occurs in the same day. A full moon is still evident. Appearances by Tasha, Nahrees, Alaris, San, Tonaja, Jeremy Markley, Jolen 

INHUMANS #5 
p. 1 
Text recap 

pp. 2-4 
Appears to pick up shortly after last issue, full moon still seen. Appearances by Alaris, San, Tonaja, Jolen, Nahrees, Medusa (via hologram) 

pp. 5-12 
"The Next Day..." Appearances by San, Alaris, Jolen, Nahrees, Tasha, Deena, Tonaja, Myatt, Scott 

pp. 13-15 
The caption simply says "later", but the moon is only shown to be a thin sliver of a cresent... at first. By the end of the same scene, it has become a full moon again.  Appearances by Deena, Randy, Kevin, Trent, Nahrees 

pp. 16-22 
"Later that night..." The dialogue suggests this is the same day as pp. 5-12. Appearances by Jolen, Alaris, Tonaja, Nahrees, San 

INHUMANS #6 
p. 1 
Text recap 

pp. 2-6 
Tonaja is working on speech she is to give to the student council "later this week." Appearances by Tonaja, Alaris, Jolen, San 

pp. 7-21 
Deena references the party from #5 pp. 13-15 as happening "the other night." Tonaja addresses the student council. Full moon is present. Appearances by Tonaja, Alaris, Jolen, San, Nahrees, Deena, Jeremy Markley, Scott, Myatt, Brett

			*	*	*

Thread 55

Posted: 13 Jun 2004 04:54 pm    Post subject: B-Sides #1-3
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Since no one seems to have looked at this wondeful series :rolling eyes: I figured I'd throw this out there... 

B-SIDES #1 
pp. 1 -15 
One day during the school year. Football is in season, and some trees are sporting brown/red leaves. Appearances by Mize, Fateball, Jughandle, Valerie Silvermane 

pp. 6-9 
According to the notes given to the kids, this begins the following day at 8 pm. Appearances by Mize, Fateball, Judghandle, Charley Huckle 

p. 10 
Interlude at the Baxter Building. Reed and Sue are going to bed and say good night to Ben. Appearances by Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman 

pp. 11-13 
Meanwhile, back in New Jersey. The B-Sides decide to stick together as a team when they hear a call for help. Appearances by Mize, Fateball, Judghandle, Charley Huckle 

B-SIDES #1, 2ND STORY 
pp. 1-9 
One night, a "couple of months ago." Dialogue indicates that high school just finished up that day. Story ends with Feeva getting a call from the Pegasus Institute that she has been accepted but will need to take summer classes. Appearances by Mize, Fateball, Judghandle, Feeva 

B-SIDES #2 
p. 1 
Text recap 

pp. 1-2 
We witness Charley's nightmare 

pp. 3-13 
Morning. Supposedly, the day after Charley meets the team, but he's already gotten shirts printed up and a building bought as a headquarters. Could be that he had that done in advance? Appearances by Mize, Fateball, Judghandle, Charley Huckle 

pp. 14-23 
"One bus ride later." The B-Sides run into Dr. Dark. During the battle, the FF show up, indicating we're still in the day after #1, pp. 6-13. Appearances by Mize, Fateball, Judghandle, Charley Huckle, Mr. Fantastic, Thing, Invisible Woman, Human Torch II, Dr. Dark 

B-SIDES #3 
Begins shortly after the end of #2 and runs straight through the rest of the day. The FF and B-Sides deal with the local media, and a minor Skrull/Kree skirmish. The story ends at dusk. Appearances by Mize, Fateball, Judghandle, Charley Huckle, Invisible Woman, Mr. Fantastic, Human Torch II, Thing, Dr. Dark, Joel Stuckmeier

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jun 2004 08:26 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, Sean. I picked up these issues in a quarter bin a while back (glad I didn't pay full price). I took the liberty of assigning this series the code, B-S. No jokes. 

I have B-S 1/2 occuring in July after the Kang War (remember a while back we theorized that the school year in many communities was extended because of the disruptions of that war). I have B-S 1-3 occurring the following late September and early October.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2004 02:30 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

I kind of liked B-SIDES. It was written as the first three issues of an expected ongoing title, which is why it's full of unresolved plots.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2004 07:02 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

That explains some things. I wonder if there'll ever be any follow-up.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2004 12:32 pm    
By SeanCurtin

I doubt it. Personally, I'd rather see The Hood volume 2. 

--Sean Curtin

			*	*	*

Thread 56

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 06:18 pm    Post subject: Silver Surfer #1-6
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

I'll take the first six issues together, since they're supposed to form a storyline - although it ends on a cliffhanger, and the plot isn't really decipherable until the next arc. For present purposes, suffice to say that the Surfer has reason to believe that an impending peril is going to obliterate the human race, and has concluded that this cannot be avoided. Therefore, he is working with a group of aliens who plan to collect gifted children and use them to repopulate the world after the apocalypse. 

COMMUNION 
SILVER SURFER #1 (September 2003) by Dan Chariton, Stacy Weiss and Milx 
SILVER SURFER #2 (December 2003) by Chariton, Weiss and Lan Medina 
SILVER SURFER #3 (January 2004) by Chariton, Weiss and Medina 
SILVER SURFER #4 (February 2004) by Chariton, Weiss and Medina 
SILVER SURFER #5 (March 2004) by Chariton, Weiss and Medina 
SILVER SURFER #6 (April 2004) by Chariton, Weiss and Medina 


SYNOPSIS: 

SILVER SURFER #5, pages 1-4, flashback. 1559. Mother Shipton writes her prophecies. In one passage, she predicts an apocalypse, after which the Silver Surfer will help to repopulate the world using the children he removed from the planet in advance. 

SILVER SURFER #3, pp1-2, flashback. Generic scenes of the infant Ellie Waters being cared for by her mother Denise, and the infant Gabe Acheron being cared for by his parents. 

Characters: Ellie Waters, Denise Waters, Gabe Acheron, Stewart Acheron, Mrs Acheron 

SILVER SURFER #1, pp1-3. The South Sudan; a burning village, destroyed by the civil war. An elder and a woman hold up a baby as an offering to the "Shining One." There is a flash of light and the baby disappears. From overhead, the face of an alien "gray" can be seen burned into the land. 

Characters: Silver Surfer (bts) 

No date is given for this. Presumably it is meant to be present day. In any event, the narration states that the war referred to in the scene is the one with the Muslim north of Sudan which began in 1983 and, apparently, has been running ever since. For what it's worth, it seems to be night, although the lighting effects are a little obscure. From later issues, it's fairly clear that this is the Surfer abducting a child for his collection. 

SILVER SURFER #1, pp4-22. New Orleans, day. June 15th. Six-year-old autistic girl, Ellie Waters, attends a hospital day care facility. She ignores all the other children (she never talks to anyone) and instead draws repeated pictures resembling the Silver Surfer. Her mother Denise comes to pick her up. 

Later, in Jackson Square, Ellie sits by while Denise works as a palmist. She doesn't genuinely believe in palmistry. Denise is spotted by the local police - Lt Poirier and Lt Elvis Morin - who interrupt her act and send her home. 

During a brief rain shower, Denise and Ellie return home to their apartment in "Voodoo Realm". Denise puts Ellie to bed. Denise tries to sleep but cannot. Glowing light is seen coming from Ellie's bedroom. Denise goes in and finds Ellie, seemingly cured, being held by the Silver Surfer. (The Surfer then leaves with Ellis, as confirmed next issue but never actually seen on panel). 

In the background, the TV news reports that NASA has been sold to Tesseract. As we find out later, that's Stuart Acheron's company. 

Characters: Silver Surfer, Denise Waters, Ellie Waters, Elvis Morin, Lt Poirier 

The weather appears to be changeable; it's mainly sun, but it's raining as they walk home. There are leaves on the trees. 

The June 15th date comes from issue #4. It's the date that Denise gave to Acheron's phone operators. Ellie's age is given as six in the same issue. 

SILVER SURFER #2, pages 1-8. The same night. Washington State. The Silver Surfer goes to the mansion home of industrialist Stewart Acheron (owner of Tesseract) and abducts his son Gabe Acheron. 

New Orleans. Denise's apartment. Poirier and Morin arrive in response to Denise's call. She shows them Ellie's drawings of the Surfer, and a burn on her arm left by the Surfer. The police don't believe Denise, but they take her to hospital. According to Denise's narration, she is kept in hospital for the next three days. 

Characters: Silver Surfer, Gabe Acheron, Stewart Acheron, Denise Waters, Elvis Morin, Lt Poirier 

SILVER SURFER #2, pages 9-12. "Two weeks later." An internet cafe in New Orleans. Denise researches other recent abductions. Later, in Jackson Square, Denise works as a palmist. She is obviously still distressed and trade is bad. Morin watches. 

Characters: Denise Waters, Elvis Morin 

SILVER SURFER #2, pages 13-21. "Two weeks later." Full moon. Denise is still trying to research alien abductions. She's thrown out of the internet cafe for scaring the customers. She goes back to the apartment of Ed McKee, who offers to let her use his computer. She e-mails a newspaper editor in Wales about the local abduction of Eryl Hughes. The man attacks her and there is a fight. Denise has a vision of Ellie and escapes. Morin sees her leave the building with McKee in pursuit. It's now 9.15pm. Denise briefly has a vision of Ellie and Gabe with the Silver Surfer in an undisclosed location. Morin tries to offer help. Denise passes out in his arms. Background detail: the Weekly World News is leading on Stuart Acheron's claim that his son has been abducted by aliens. 

Characters: Denise Waters, Elvis Morin, Ellie Waters, Gabe Acheron, Silver Surfer, Ed McKee 

SILVER SURFER #3, pages 1-6. Several days later. Aboard a complex on the dark side of the moon (as revealed in issue #4), Gabe and Ellis play together. 

5.15pm (according to a clock). Ambrose Psychiatric Hospital. Morin visits Denise, who is being drugged up. Stewart Acheron appears on the ward TV to make an appeal for help in finding his son Gabe. He offers a five million dollar reward and gives a phone number to call. Denise memorises the number as she goes to bed. 

Characters: Denise Waters, Elvis Morin, Ellie Waters, Gabe Acheron, Stewart Acheron 

In his broadcast, Stewart says that Gabe was abducted "two weeks ago." Obviously, it's been at least four. However, the broadcast appears to be a paid advertisement, so possibly he taped it two weeks after the abduction and it's still running. 

At some point between pages 6 and 7, Denise phones the number and tells her story to Stewart's phone operators. 

SILVER SURFER #3, pages 7-12. A day or so later. Stewart Acheron and an employee, Apryl, discuss the response to his advert. They agree that Denise is the most promising lead. 

Shortly, men in black (in the traditional sense) visit the New Orleans Police Department and seize the files on Ellie's abduction. (It's not made clear exactly who they are, but the police accept them as having authority.) Outside the hospital, Morin watches as two more men in black lead Denise to a limo. Morin tries to intervene, but Denise is happy to go - the men have offered to help find Ellie. Denise is taken to the airport and put on a flight to Washington. 

The moon complex. Ellie and an alien, Amnel, observe Denise and discuss. 

Characters: Stewart Acheron, Apryl, Lt Poirier, Elvis Morin, Denise Waters, Ellie Waters, Amnel 

SILVER SURFER #3, pages 13-21. The next day. Denise is brought to the Acheron mansion and recounts her story to Stewart. 

The moon complex. Gabe is exploring, and finds a room which he isn't allowed to enter. The Silver Surfer appears and explains that the room contains information communicated through "high frequency sonic and light vibrations. Exposure to it in your current state of development would cause insanity, followed by physical death." The Surfer offers to accelerate Gabe's development so that he can enter immediately. (Gabe would otherwise have been able to do so in several decades time.) Gabe accepts. 

Characters: Stewart Acheron, Lt Poirier, Elvis Morin, Denise Waters, Ellie Waters, Amnel, Apryl, Gabe Acheron, Silver Surfer 

Issue #4 confirms that there is a page break between pages 12-13: "Two days ago, I was in New Orleans. Yesterday, Seattle." 

SILVER SURFER #4, pages 1-12. The next day. Tokyo. The Silver Surfer turns up as a huge wave is about to hit the city. 

Portmeirion, Wales. (The town where "The Prisoner" was filmed.) Stewart and Denise leave their hotel and go to visit Flora Hughes, a local woman whose child has also been abducted. Stewart makes various cellphone calls to an employee, Walter, and gives Walter instructions relating to satellites. (It's impossible to work out from Stewart's end of the conversation exactly what he's asking for.) 

Colwyn Bay, Wales. Stewart and Denise meet with Flora Hughes. Her child Eryn has indeed also been abducted by the Silver Surfer. Unfortunately, Flora turns out to be a rambling religious lunatic who is convinced that the abductions are a sign of the impending apocalypse, as prophecied in the Book of Revelations. Eventually her husband William returns and throws them out. Before they leave, Flora gives Denise a copy of Mother Shipton's prophecies. Stewart considers Flora a waste of time; he is uncertain about Denise. 

Back at the hotel, Denise attempts to kill herself with an overdose of sleeping pills. 

Characters: Silver Surfer, Denise Waters, Stewart Acheron, Apryl (bts), Walter (bts), Flora Hughes, William Hughes 

SILVER SURFER #4, pages 13-21. Next day. The moon complex. Because of the Silver Surfer's interference, Gabe begins to resist Amnel's telepathic conditioning. Amnel protest to the Surfer - he is trying to secure the welfare of the children, and now Gabe will cause discord. The Surfer objects to keeping the children ignorant, and tells Amnel to separate Gabe and Ellie from the other children. 

Ellie and Gabe wander around a seemingly utopian landscape which Gabe calls "Dr Yedlin's zoo." Yedlin is apparently an alien scientist collecting DNA for the purposes of cloning Earth animals after earth is destroyed. Gabe tells Ellie that he believes the children have been abducted for the same purpose. As a result of their conversation, Ellie breaks her conditioning and realises how upset Denise must be. Ellie panics. 

Denise sees some of this in a dream, and wakes in her hotel room. She tries to tell Stewart, but he has already checked out, leaving her a plane ticket to make her own way back to New Orleans. 

Characters: Silver Surfer, Gabe Acheron, Amnel, Ellie Waters, Denise Waters, Stewart Acheron (bts) 

SILVER SURFER #5. Later. New Orleans. Tourists are partying in the streets; Denise isn't much impressed. She meets Poirier and Morin again. Morin takes Denise for something to eat as night falls. Denise helpfully recaps the plot. 

Jackson Hole, Wyoming. Stewart Acheron visits Dick Cheney and briefs him about the research NASA has been carrying out into the Silver Surfer's abductions. From satellites, Acheron has photographic proof of the Silver Surfer's involvement. (The tone of the conversation suggests that neither of them recognise the Silver Surfer, but it's not entirely clear. Or perhaps the photo isn't meant to be as clear as the art makes it.) 

The moon. Ellie's "mind is locked in a recursive loop" as she tries to contact her mother. The Surfer takes her for medical treatment. Amnel tries to treat her as Gabe watches. Amnel explains that Ellie cannot be allowed to contact her mother telepathically, because (like Gabe) she has "evolved." Telepathic contact would kill Denise. Gabe turns his attention to the Silver Surfer and demands explanations. The Surfer gives a lengthy speech, the gist of which is that Earth is doomed to die, and he is doing the best he can by preserving children to repopulate the human race afterwards. The Surfer leaves the complex and surfs into a portal that leads to a... well, THING.... called the Singularity. It's basically a tunnel of eyeballs. 

Characters: Denise Waters, Lt Poirier, Elvis Morin, Stewart Acheron, Dick Cheney, Katherine Cheney, Silver Surfer, Ellie Waters, Amnel, Gabe Acheron, Singularity 


SILVER SURFER #6. A few days later. (Time inside the Singularity is indeterminate - the Surfer seems to be meditating and could well be there for ages.) Inside the Singularity. A garbled collection of panels and slogans, which amounts to a rather pretentious pep talk to the Silver Surfer from the Singularity. It's along the general lines of "stick to the plan, but you can send Ellie back to Earth now because she's protected somehow." 

Later, back at the moon complex, the Silver Surfer tries to explain to Amnel what the Singularity is. He doesn't do a very good job of it, largely because he isn't sure himself. 

Houma, Louisiana. Elvis takes Denise to visit Annie Laronde, a friend of his grandmother's. Laronde is a voodoo practitioner. Denise is at first annoyed, but soon breaks down in tears. At the same time, Ellie prepares to return home. Amnel gives Ellie a small gold sphere. Gabe asks Ellie to tell his father that he will come back soon. 

Goddard Space Flight Center. Staff pick up the Silver Surfer and contact Acheron. He is stunned when the satellite footages shows the Surfer with Ellie. Stewart has his flight re-directed to New Orelans and then calls Dick Cheney. 

Evening. The Surfer arrives at Denise's apartment. Denise and Elvis have already got back. The Surfer returns Ellie to Denise and then leaves. Soldiers gather outside. 

Characters: Silver Surfer, Singularity, Amnel, Denise Waters, Elvis Morin, Annie Laronde, Ellie Waters, Gabe Acheron, Stewart Acheron, Apryl, Dick Cheney (bts)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 09:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, Paul. I'm glad for that June 15 reference. It's helped me place these first six issues from mid-June to late July of the current Marvel year.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jun 2004 06:10 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

I figured Id note a few things I spotted in the early issues of this latest volume of the Silver Surfers adventures. 

Silver Surfer #2, pages 9 and 10: As noted, in this scene, Denise is using the internet connection at a local caf, to do some investigating of her own on child abductions similar to the incident which took her daughter. 

On page 10, we see her jotting notes down in a notebook, and those notes read as follows: 

April 14  Nan Lim  Singapore 
Age  8 Poet 

May 17  Alexandre Torres  Cuba 
Age - 5 Botany 

May 31  Loen Ranch  Austria 
Age 7  Acrobat 

June 15  Ellie 

August 2  Eryl Hughes  Wales 


The June 15th date listed is when her own daughter Ellie was abducted. The August 2nd date is the Christian fanatic woman in Wales, whom Denise and Acheron go to see as shown in Issue 4. Since the calender lists all days activities by our heroes happen on, I believe these dates can be added. 

Im also not so sure the abduction of Gabe Acheron happened on the same night as the abduction of Ellie. The date Gabe is abducted is never precisely revealed, but let me explain: 

Also in issue 2, on page 18, after Denise sends the email and flees the sexual predators house, she runs into Officer Morin, (whos apparently scooping out the place). Paul O. already noted this: While Morins scooping out the place, hes shown reading a newspaper (the Weekly World), which has the headline, Aliens took my son! says Billionaire. And it shows a picture of Acheron and his son. This suggests to me that the abduction of that child was fairly recent, (maybe yesterday, thus the front page headline). However, maybe Im interpreting that wrong. While its certain Gabe Acherons disappearance immediately made the news, (a billionares sons disappearance would be a hot topic) Im not sure Stewart Acheron went out and told the media that his son was abducted by aliens. Perhaps this is a few days or weeks later, and the Weekly World, (which does sound like a tabloid) decided to make Mr. Acherons plight the typical Sensationalism sludge that tabloids print all the time. 

But heres one more interesting tidbit: In small fine print, at the top of that newspaper Officer Morin is holding, the date reads, September 30 Beside that, it appears to be 1903 but I cant make out it very well. Still, as this was published in 2003, the 03 date makes sense in that regards. And at this point in the story, it is indeed clearly after August 2nd, going by the plot. 

Maybe these clues give a bit more credit to Stewarts claim in SS #3 (on the television broadcast) that his son Gabe was abducted two weeks ago? 

Im also not sure if Silver Surfers riding the tidal wave which strikes Tokyo is anything more than a part of one of Denises hallucinations, (a foreshadowing of the future apocolypse which is feared to strike the earth). I mean, this is one huge tidal wave portrayed, and Ill note that Mt. Fuji is erupting wildly in the background, and it just looks like Tokyo is about to be wiped off the map. And then we immediately cut to Denise opening her eyes, and waking up. 

Im not saying these things Ive noted are necessarily correct, but they are stuff I noted.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jun 2004 09:28 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
The June 15th date listed is when her own daughter Ellie was abducted. The August 2nd date is the Christian fanatic woman in Wales, whom Denise and Acheron go to see as shown in Issue 4. Since the calender lists all days activities by our heroes happen on, I believe these dates can be added. 

Im also not so sure the abduction of Gabe Acheron happened on the same night as the abduction of Ellie.  
<<<


Because of the sequence of events in SS4 1 and 2, it appears that the abduction of Gabe Acheron occurs between Ellie's abduction and Denise's transport to the hospital that same night, i.e. June 15. 

When Denise does her research and makes notes of the dates, it's supposed to be "two weeks" later, or around the end of the month of June. Yet she notes the Wales abduction as occurring on "August 2." My theory is that she wrote the wrong date here and that it should be July 2. That means that Denise's research could occur as early as July 3 (a Thursday two weeks after Sunday, June 15). 

I buy the idea that Acheron's appeal in SS4 3 was taped at about the time that Denise was doing her research. This would explain the "two weeks ago" reference to Gabe's abduction. By the time we see that appeal on TV in SS4 3, at least another "two weeks" have gone by (between pages 12 and 13 of SS4 2). 

Granted, I'm going solely on the posts here, but how does that sound?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2004 06:04 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Well, I guess it boils down to a question of which of the references is stronger to use for the calender: the "two weeks later" narrative mentioned twice, (thus, 4 weeks have passed) or the Aug. 2nd date, (along with possibly the mentioning on TV by Stewart Acheron that his son was kidnapped 2 weeks ago). 

Either one works for me, I just figured I would bring those references to your attention.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2004 09:55 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Much appreciated, Kevin. I'm currently leaning toward the August-error-and-taped-message theory, but does anyone else care to chime in about the conflicting temporal references and how to handle them?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jun 2004 02:37 pm    Post subject: Inhumans #7-12
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Here's the rest of the last Inhumans series. Looks that when all is said and done, the whole series takes place over about one month in the September/October timeframe. 

INHUMANS #7 
p. 1 
Text recap 

pp.2-14 
U of WI, Greek Row. Lots of leaves blowing around indicating that it is (still) autumn. Runs from afternoon to deep evening. San creates a sculpture that he claims will last 18 days. Continued full moon. Appearances by San, Britney, Annie, Stacey Motezon, Jolen 

pp. 15-16 
"Days later..." at the Putting Palace. Appearances by San, Stacey Motezon, Kelly Stapleton, Britney, Annie 

pp. 17-23 
We see San and Stacey on several dates. Stacey notes that "two weeks ago" she didn't know about San. At the end of the sequence, San breaks it off with Stacey. San's sculpture is still intact. Appearances by San, Stacey Motezon, Kelly Stapleton, Britney, Annie 

INHUMANS #8 
p. 1 
Text recap 

pp. 2-4 
A "missing" poster showing Scott, Myatt and Brett. Alaris sees it for the first time, so it should still be fairly soon after Jolen killed them in #6. Appearances by San, Tonaja, Alaris, Jolen, Nahrees 

p. 5 
Seemingly the same afternoon as pp. 2-4. Appearances by San, Tonaja, Alaris, Richard Anderson 

pp. 6-22 
"The Next Day." Alaris is watching football and heads off to join the U of WI team. There's TV coverage of a "School Attacked by Alien Robot" presumably referring to Sentinel. (I didn't get that series though.) There's also a newspaper headline of "Hundreds saved from tunnel collapse by heroes." The photo shows Captain America and Iron Man sifting through rubble. A silhouette in the background looks like it might be Thor and another figure vaguely resembles the Vision. No specific mention, though, of it being the Avengers per se or just a gaggle of heroes. Dialogue near the end of the issue indicates this is still the day after Richard Anderson approached them. Appearances by San, Alaris, Tonaja, U of WI Football Coach, Richard Anderson, Terrence Haller Jr. 

INHUMANS #9 
p. 1 
Text recap 

pp. 2-9 
This is supposedly Alaris' first public appearance as the team mascot. Appearances by Jolen, San, Tonaja, Nahrees, Ellen, Damon Hart, Alaris 

pp. 10-12 
"That evening..." at a club. Appearances by Damon Hart, Nahrees, Ellen 

pp. 13-19 
"The Next Day..." Appearances by Tonaja, Alaris, Nahress, Damon Hart, Ellen 

pp. 20-22 
"Meanwhile, in Chicago..." There's reference to Wisconsin having "nice foliage this time of year" suggesting it is still autumn. Chase states he will be in Madison tomorrow. Appearances by Dr. Dowlati, Dr. Myers, "Mister Chase", Terrence Haller III, Terrence Haller Jr. 

INHUMANS #10 
p. 1 
Text recap 

pp. 2-3 
Late at night, at a rest stop 8 miles from Madison. Appearance by Mister Chase 

pp. 4-21 panel 2 
Evidently the next day. Everyone is pretty much going out partying and such, so it's probably a weekend. Appearances by Alaris, Tonaja, San, Jolen, Nahrees, Damon Hart, Ellen, Mister Chase 

p. 21 panel 3 - p. 23 
Nahrees is in Chicago, so it's probably the day after pp. 4-21. Appearances by Nahrees, Dr. Dowlati, Terrence Haller III, Terrence Haller Jr. 

INHUMANS #11 
p. 1 
Text recap 

pp. 2-6 
Flashback through the life of Terrence Haller, Jr. Starts when he's age 6 and runs through "one month ago" in which he's reading the Chicago Tribune front page story about the Inhuman exchange students. The paper's date is listed as February 20, 2004 but that is almost certainly topical given all the autumn references we've seen thus far in the series. Appearances by Terrence Haller Sr., William Haller, Margaret Haller, Terrence Haller III, Sheila Bergstrom Haller, Terrence Haller Jr. 

p. 7 
Back in Chicago. Appearances by Mister Chase, Terrence Haller III, Terrence Haller Jr. 

pp. 8-9 
U of WI. The students consult with Medusa via hologram. Appearances by San, Tonaja, Jolen, Alaris, Ellen, Medusa (via hologram) 

pp. 10-12 
Chicago. Appearances by Nahrees, Mister Chase, Dr. Dowlati, Dr. Myers, Terrence Haller Jr. 

pp. 13-14 
"Outside Beloit, Wisconsin. The middle of the night." Appearances by Ellen, San, Alaris, Jolen, Tonaja 

pp. 15-17 
Back in Chicago. Judging by dialogue, we're still in the same 24-hour period that began at the end of last issue. Appearances by Terrence Haller Jr. Terrence Haller III, Nahrees, Dr. Dowlati, Dr. Myers 

pp. 18-22 
The students arrive at Haller Labs. It's still dark out. Appearances by Dr. Dowlati, Ellen, Jolen, San, Alaris, Tonaja, Mister Chase 

INHUMANS #12 
p. 1 
Text recap 

pp. 2-13 
"Early morning." It's still dark out. Appearances by San, Terrence Haller III, Jolen, Alaris, Tonaja, Nahrees, Mister Chase, Dr. Dowlati, Dr. Myers, Terrence Haller Jr., FBI Agent Scott Forbes, Ellen 

pp. 14-19 
Afternoon, evidently of the same day. Appearances by Nahrees, Damon Hart, Jolen, San, Stacey Motezon, Tonaja, Alaris 

p. 20-21 panel 1 
"That evening." Tonaja sits on the roof all night. Appearances by Tonaja, Medusa (via hologram) 

p. 21 panel 2 - p. 23 
Tonaja gets down off the roof finally and goes to class. San and Alaris discuss the previous night's airing of Alias. Appearances by San, Tonaja, Alaris

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2004 07:27 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Hey, Sean. Thanks for these notes on the latest Inhumans series. I suppose we should code this as volume 6? Marvel usually makes the mistake of not having a high enough volume number on the indicia, but it looks like they're being comprehensive here for once. 

I assume volume 5 would be the four-issue limited series from 2000. That series is labelled as volume 3 in the indicia. I have issues #3 and #4 only. Can anyone supply a summary of the first two issues? 

Sean, you have piqued my curiosity with all the references to the UW. I have a decent familiarity with "Greek Row" (Langdon Street) and "the team mascot" (Bucky Badger). I should be able to nail down the start of school without a problem. The temporal references do help, and I assume that there is a gap between issues #6 and #7, given the references to autumn foliage that follow. It's a little hard to tell without more elaboration on plot. Is it possible to insert a little more detail on plot in the various entries? Also, a breakdown of the flashback scenes in issue #11 would be great, especially indication of the panel(s) in which Haller reads the Trib story, which I assume refers to issue #3 (pages 6-8)? 

(Actually, regarding pagination: we don't count the text recaps as a story page. Page 1 would be the first page of story. So my listings will be a page off from your notes.) 

The tie-in to Sentinel #6 (the news reference to the alien robot attack) is also helpful, and reinforces October placements for issues #7-12. (In SENT 2, there's a reference to Juston having missed too much school already because of his father's Chicago trips, indicating that we may be a month or so into the school year by that point.) 

I believe the scene with Cap and Iron Man rescuing folks from the tunnel collapse is new material. Any appearance of Thor here would be critical to placement. Can we confirm whether he is actually here and if so, what he's wearing? 

Again, many thanks! 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2004 10:23 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Hey, Sean. Thanks for these notes on the latest Inhumans series. I suppose we should code this as volume 6? Marvel usually makes the mistake of not having a high enough volume number on the indicia, but it looks like they're being comprehensive here for once. 
<<<

Well, I think Russ has already got the nebulous two series noted differently anyway. With regard to indicia, I tend to NOT go with what Marvel publishes since they're pretty inconsistent and screw things up frequently. Geez, I think their last Moon Knight book changed volume numbers every issue! 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I assume volume 5 would be the four-issue limited series from 2000. That series is labelled as volume 3 in the indicia. I have issues #3 and #4 only. Can anyone supply a summary of the first two issues? 
<<<

That series is correctly labeled volume 3, but would indeed by volume 5 by their count here. I'll try to get you a summary when I get a chance. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
The temporal references do help, and I assume that there is a gap between issues #6 and #7, given the references to autumn foliage that follow. It's a little hard to tell without more elaboration on plot.  
<<<

There are distinct breaks between all issues, unless I've noted otherwise. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Is it possible to insert a little more detail on plot in the various entries? 
<<<

I had a little problem with that since most of the series is one, big character study. #1 was your basic set-up/introduction. #2-7 were a series of character moments: Alaris having people take advantage of him, San adjusting his new self-image, Nahrees learning "humanity", etc. Lots of talking heads stuff. I dare say one of the primary reasons it didn't sell better was that the first 7 issues were largely just a series of hey-look-how-mean-humans-are-to-people-who-are-different moments. This guy was overtly mean, that women was just clueless, that sorority girl was entirely superficial, that guy just took advantage of their ignorance... 

#8-12 have Mr. Chase kidnap Nahrees for Terry Haller Jr. Terry Haller III is deathly sick, and Jr thinks analyzing Inhuman metabolics can help cure him. The other Inhuman kids go save Nahrees and have a few more character moments afterwards. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Also, a breakdown of the flashback scenes in issue #11 would be great, 
<<<

Can do. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
especially indication of the panel(s) in which Haller reads the Trib story, which I assume refers to issue #3 (pages 6-8)? 
<<<

I would have to assume so as well. We can't read the text of the article and the picture is a generic shot of the five kids. I'm guessing that particular scene (with Haller actually reading the published paper) occurs between #3 and 4. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
(Actually, regarding pagination: we don't count the text recaps as a story page. Page 1 would be the first page of story. So my listings will be a page off from your notes.) 
<<<

I know, but I wanted to make absolutely clear how I was counting pages. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I believe the scene with Cap and Iron Man rescuing folks from the tunnel collapse is new material.  
<<<

That's my belief as well. I don't recall seeing the Avengers saving any collapsing tunnels since the mid-80s. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Any appearance of Thor here would be critical to placement. Can we confirm whether he is actually here and if so, what he's wearing? 
<<<

It looked like the classic Kirby Thor costume in silohuette. That said, it could conceivably have been Beta Ray Bill. What appeared to have been a cape may have been a piece of rubble. I don't see this as a deal-breaker on anything. It's certainly intended to be Thor, but if that doesn't mesh with his continuity, we've got plenty of "outs" for him.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jun 2004 10:04 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
It looked like the classic Kirby Thor costume in silohuette. That said, it could conceivably have been Beta Ray Bill. What appeared to have been a cape may have been a piece of rubble. I don't see this as a deal-breaker on anything. It's certainly intended to be Thor, but if that doesn't mesh with his continuity, we've got plenty of "outs" for him. 
<<<


Well, the classic costume wouldn't work that well in this calendar spot, but I'm inserting this issue of INH4 into Thor's chronology as his last appearance before T2 46, the storyline that leads to Asgard-over-Manhattan. (This would be his first appearance after his hair grows back from M/DS 2/2.) I'm hoping it's okay to stick this series (and SENTINEL) in the fall of what is "last year" to contemporary story arcs in current titles. 

Anyway, Sean, I know I'm asking a lot, but in addition to the other requests I have for you, I wonder if it's possible to break down the sequence of the "several dates" that San and Stacey have in pages 16-22 of INH4 7. Thanks again!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jun 2004 07:41 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

OK, here's the flashback sequence from INHUMANS #11... 

Pg 1, panel 1: Haller family portrait. Appearances by Terry Haller Sr. (age 42), Margaret Haller (age 30), William Haller (age 4), Terry Haller Jr. (age 6) 

Pg 1, panel 2: One year later. Terry Sr. inherits his father's estate. No character appearances. 

Pg 1, panel 3: Terry Jr. wins a Pinewood Derby at age 8. Appearance by Terry Haller Jr. 

Pg 1, panels 4-6: Terry Jr. (age 10) plays with his brother in the snow and watches as he dies from an aortic anqurysm. Appearances by Terry Haller Sr., Margaret Haller, William Haller, Terry Haller Jr. 

Pg 2, panels 1-2: Terry Jr. (age 11) heads off to Ellington Prepatory School. Appearances by Terry Haller Sr., Margaret Haller, Terry Haller Jr. 

Pg 2, panel 3: Terry Jr. (age 12) plays Tom Sawyer in the school play. Appearances by Terry Haller Sr., Margaret Haller, Terry Haller Jr. 

Pg 2, panel 4: Terry Jr. (age 15) wins the Ellington Creative Writing Prize. Appearances by Terry Haller Sr., Margaret Haller, Terry Haller Jr. 

Pg 2, panel 5: Terry Sr. dies one year later. Appearances by Terry Haller Sr. (visable in casket), Margaret Haller, Terry Haller Jr. 

Pg 2, panel 6: Margaret dies "shortly thereafter." Appearances by Margaret Haller (in a closed casket), Terry Haller Jr. 

Pg 3, panels 1-2: Terry Jr. (age 20) is made CEO of Haller Industries. Appearance by Terry Haller Jr. 

Pg 3, panels 3-4: Terry Jr. (age 23) watches as Haller Industries joins the Fortune 50. Appearance by Terry Haller Jr. 

Pg 3, panels 5-6: Terry Jr. (age 27) named CEO of the Year. Appearances by Sheila Bergstrom, Terry Haller Jr. 

Pg 4, panel 1: Terry Jr. (age 29) gets married. Appearances by Sheila Bergstrom Haller, Terry Haller Jr. 

Pg 4, panel 2: Birth of Terry III one year later. Appearances by Sheila Bergstrom Haller, Terry Haller III (behind the scenes), Terry Haller Jr. 

Pg 4, panel 3: Family portrait of Terry Jr., Sheila, and Terry III. No time references are given but Terry III appears to be maybe two or three. Appearances by Sheila Bergstrom Haller, Terry Haller III, Terry Haller Jr. 

Pg 4, panels 4-5: Terry Jr. (age 34) watches Sheila die and his company go down the tubes. Appearances by Sheila Bergstrom Haller (in closed casket), Terry Haller III, Terry Haller Jr. 

Pg 5, panel 1: Terry Jr. (age 35) invests millions in Progeria research. Appearance by Terry Haller Jr. 

Pg 5, panel 2: Terry Jr. (age 36) brings in specialists to perform gene therapy on Terry III. Appearances by Terry Haller III, Terry Haller Jr. 

Pg 5, panel 3: Terry Jr. (age 38) consults shamans, witch doctors, etc. Appearances by Terry Haller III, Terry Haller Jr. 

Pg 5, panel 4: Terry Jr. (age 40) hires biochemists to conduct embryonic stem cell research "despite a government ban." Appearance by Terry Haller Jr. 

Pg 5, panels 5-6: "One month ago" Terry Jr. reads about the Inhuman exchange students in the paper. Appearance by Terry Haller Jr.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jun 2004 08:59 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Holy smokes, Sean, that has to be one of the choppiest and lengthiest flashbacks Marvel's published in quite some time. Many thanks for getting down to that level of detail. I had no idea it was going to be so involved... 

I've assigned some dates, based on clues you've provided. See if they make sense, and note if I'm putting class days on weekends, etc... 

Thu, Aug 1 -- INH4 1 (1-7) 
Fri, Aug 2 -- INH4 1 (8-10) 
Wed, Aug 7 -- INH4 1 (11-15) 
Thu, Aug 8 -- INH4 1 (16-20) and INH4 2 (1-3) 
Sat, Aug 10 -- INH4 2 (4-10) 
Sun, Aug 11 -- INH4 2 (11-12) 
Mon, Aug 12 -- INH4 2 (13-18) 
Tue, Aug 13 -- INH4 2 (19-21) and INH4 3 (1-4) 
Wed, Aug 14 -- INH4 3 (5-7) 
Thu, Aug 15 -- INH4 3 (8-22) -- traditional move-in day at UW 

Tue, Sep 3 -- INH4 4 (1-7) -- UW classes start right after Labor Day 
Wed, Sep 4 -- INH4 11-FB (5p5-5p6) 
Thu, Sep 5 -- INH4 4 (8-12) 
Fri, Sep 6 -- INH4 4 (13-22) 
Sat, Sep 7 -- INH4 5 (1-3) 
Sun, Sep 8 -- INH4 5 (4-21) 
Mon, Sep 9 -- INH4 6 
Tue, Sep 10 -- INH4 7 (1-13) 
Fri, Sep 13 -- INH4 7 (14-15) 
??? -- INH4 7 (16-22) -- looks like a span of days before Sep 21 

Mon, Sep 30 -- INH4 8 (1-4) 
Tue, Oct 1 -- INH4 8 (5-21) 
Wed, Oct 16 -- INH4 9 (1-11) 
Thu, Oct 17 -- INH4 9 (12-21) and INH4 10 (1-2) 
Fri, Oct 18 -- INH4 10 (3-20p2) 
Sat, Oct 19 -- INH4 10 (20p4-23) and INH4 11 (6-11) 
Sun, Oct 20 -- INH4 11 (12-21) and INH4 12 (1-20p1) 
Mon, Oct 21 -- INH4 12 (20p2-23)
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 12:40 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

I see one problem and one discussion point. 

I think #6 should happen over at least 2 days. Tonaja specifically says at the beginning of the issue that her speech is "later this week." If it were later that day she would have said "later today" or "this afternoon" or something. Additionally, the later part of the issue has a refernce to the party from #5 occurring "the other night." As you have it here, the party would've been "last night" or "yesterday." 

Now, my discussion point. Jolen kills three human students at the end of #6. (I know, I didn't elaborate on this in my earlier posts.) These are the same three students that show up on the "missing" poster at the outset of #8, which Alaris sees for the first time. Now it's possible that no one reported them missing right away, but the three week interval between those #6 and #8 seems a bit much to me. So let me throw out this possibility... 

What if #7 actually occurs concurrently with #8 and part of #9? After the first few pages, San is the only Inhuman we see in #7 and he only has the briefest of appearances in #8. What if the order were something like... 

Mon, Sep 9 -- INH4 6 (1-5) 
Tue, Sep 10 -- INH4 6 (6-20) 
Wed, Sep. 11 -- INH4 7 (1-13) 
Fri, Sep 13 -- INH4 7 (14-15) 
Sat, Sep 14 -- INH4 8 (1-4) 
Sun, Sept 15 -- INH4 8 (5-21) 
Sun, Sep 15-Sun, Sep 29 -- INH4 7 (16-22) 

I don't know how that ties in (or doesn't) with Sentinel though. Like I said, it's a discussion point.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jun 2004 09:52 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Sean, your revision doesn't affect the Sentinel tie-in, which I have on October 1.  

Question: you seem to imply that Tonaja's speech occurs in issue #6. If that's the case, pages 6-20 should occur two to four days after pages 1-5, as the speech is "later this week," not "tomorrow." Does this mess up date placements? 

As far as the timing of #7 and #8, I suppose that's okay, although it does violate a "keep in sequence unless you're told a scene occurs out of sequence" rule. I'd be interested in feedback on this idea, especially from others who might have these two issues. 

Sean, can you break down pages 16-22 of issue #7 into separate dates?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2004 12:08 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Sean, your revision doesn't affect the Sentinel tie-in, which I have on October 1.   
<<<

Wait. My revised placement put the tie-in on Sept 15, though. Does you mean that Sentinel has enough flexibility to slide around like that? 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Question: you seem to imply that Tonaja's speech occurs in issue #6. If that's the case, pages 6-20 should occur two to four days after pages 1-5, as the speech is "later this week," not "tomorrow." Does this mess up date placements? 
<<<

Tonaja's speech is indeed in #6. I've got that noted in the thread analyzing the first six issues. 

With the exceptions of the Sentinel tie-in and the first week or so of U of WI classes, the only real time references are internal. ("The Next Day..." or "That Night..." for example.) I just was trying to muck about with placements as minimally as possible. So we can add a full week there if need be. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
As far as the timing of #7 and #8, I suppose that's okay, although it does violate a "keep in sequence unless you're told a scene occurs out of sequence" rule. I'd be interested in feedback on this idea, especially from others who might have these two issues. 
<<<

The only reason I brought it up was because of that Alaris sees that missing persons poster for the first time in #9. If we follow the issues as published, then we've got at least a two or three week period between when those students were killed, and when Alaris sees a missing poster for the first time. One could argue that he can be oblivious at times, or that he was focused on his studies, or was just out partying, but that just strikes me as a particularly long time for what was a significant plot point earlier in the series... 

By way of explanation, the first week of classes, Alaris was accosted by three human students who had already blown their cash allowances for the term. They "befriended" Alaris and got him to buy crud-loads of stuff for them on his credit card. The card, it turns out, was tied to a fund to be used by all of the Inhuman students. Not surprisingly, Alaris blew the card's limit quite substantially and Medusa ordered all of the students to get University jobs to help pay back the debt. It is through these jobs that many of the Inhumans' future interactions take place. San gets asked out in #7 because he was seen working at the Library, Nahrees learns some degree of humility because she was working at the on-campus dining facilities, Jolen finds some measure of solace working as a groundskeeper, etc. 

Anyway, the human students who snookered Alaris were nowhere to be found, until sometime in #6 when Jolen happened across them at a party. He lured them back to the Inhumans house (considered soverign soil, where they were not bound by U.S. laws) and buried them alive, unbeknownst to the rest of the Inhumans. 

So because those students' existence was a more significant plot point to the overall series than San's dating experience in #7, I thought it makes sense to give that a little more weight than the publishing timeline. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Sean, can you break down pages 16-22 of issue #7 into separate dates? 
<<<

On my list of things to do. I'll post that here as soon as I get a chance to pull out the issue again.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2004 09:50 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Wait. My revised placement put the tie-in on Sept 15, though. Does you mean that Sentinel has enough flexibility to slide around like that?  
<<<

Oops. My bad. It's going to be hard to place the Sentinel tie-in as early as Sept. 15, given that part of SENTINEL #1 occurs on a school day and by SENTINEL #2, Juston's already missed a lot of school. See the SENTINEL thread for how time passes there, but having SENTINEL #6 in mid-September is too soon. 


Quote: 
>>>
Tonaja's speech is indeed in #6. I've got that noted in the thread analyzing the first six issues. 

With the exceptions of the Sentinel tie-in and the first week or so of U of WI classes, the only real time references are internal. ("The Next Day..." or "That Night..." for example.) I just was trying to muck about with placements as minimally as possible. So we can add a full week there if need be.  
<<<

So, then this would be okay?... 

Mon, Sep 9 -- INH4 6 (1-5) 
Wed, Sep 11 -- INH4 6 (6-20) 
Thu, Sep 12 -- INH4 7 (1-13) 
Sat, Sep 14 -- INH4 7 (14-15) 


As far as the poster goes, can we put a gap between pages 3 and 4 of INH4 8? You note that page 4 "seemingly" occurs the same afternoon as page 3, but if we insert a gap there, the scene with Alaris' noticing the poster (in issue #8, not #9, right?) could be placed closer to the killings. 

So maybe we can assign Sun, Sep 15 to INH4 8 (1-3) then have pages 16-22 of INH4 7 occur (on a span of dates you can assign), then pick up with INH4 8 (4) on Mon, Sep 30. 

Does that make sense?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 10:14 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Yeah, that should work. (At least, as far as I can tell.) 

Now, speaking of that two week period in #7, here's a review of it. The text doesn't expressly give a timeline, but the artwork is drawn such that we are looking at a series of dates and not aspects of one really long one. I don't even know that I'd be able to harzard guestimated dates, other than some that might work better on weekends. I'll include the captions (there is no dialogue at first) for reference. 

page 16, panel 1 -- San is showing Stacey how he creates art. It looks like the end piece is intended to be Attilan, but it's hard to tell for sure since we've never really seen Robert Teranishi's version of it from that angle. "It's wild. These past days have been so bizarre, so incredible..." 

page 16, panel 2 -- Stacey and some other girls (presumably her sorority sisters) appear to be at a nightclub... sans San. (Couldn't resist the pun. Sorry. ) Stacey's wearing her hair up, so it's not likely to be the same night as panel 1. "I can see everything now. Everything makes sense. Two weeks ago, I never imagined someone like him existed. Now I can't imagine him not existing." A weekend? 

page 16, panel 3 -- Stacy is doodling San's name and cutesy hearts on her notebook. Technically, it might not be Stacey, since we only see her hand, but she's the only human in the series that shows any interest in him so I think it's a safe bet. "I know he feels the same way. So awkward and shy... I'm sure he'd never believe a girl like me could fall for a guy like him." 

page 16, panel 4 -- San and Stacey go to a movie. Her hair's down here and San is wearing a ballcap. "He used to be the epitome of the ugliness I was so eager to get away from..." 

page 16, panel 5 -- San and Stacey are in a boat on a lake/pond/river. (It's a bird's-eye view so it's impossible to determine what type of water mass they're on.) Stacey has a clearly different outfit on here than anywhere else. "... but now that I see what he's like on the inside, it's like the outside just doesn't matter anymore. It's part of what makes San who he is." 

page 16, panel 6 -- Stacey is in her room, examining the art San made her on page 13. "And I would never want him to change who he is. After all..." 

page 17 -- "... he helped me finally realize where I belong." We start back into full sequences. At night, Stacey goes to her sorority house and withdraws from the group. 

Page 18-19 -- Stacey -- wearing the same outfit she had on page 17, with her hair done the same way (so it's almost certainly the same night) --visits San to tell him she loves him. He replies, "You're just a human." (Ouch!) 

Page 20-21 -- Stacey's lying on her bed with a bottle of something. Presumably it's the same night, but she's just wearing a t-shirt and panties so it's hard to tell. Her roommate's mom calls and Stacey tells her that Kelly (the roomate) is at the Eta Rho Theta induction party. (I missed that earlier.) Stacey then looks at San's art from page 13. Looking at it again, I think it's supposed to be in a state of decay, but it wasn't drawn terribly consistently throughout the issue, so it's hard to tell.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 03:58 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Oops. My bad. It's going to be hard to place the Sentinel tie-in as early as Sept. 15, given that part of SENTINEL #1 occurs on a school day and by SENTINEL #2, Juston's already missed a lot of school. See the SENTINEL thread for how time passes there, but having SENTINEL #6 in mid-September is too soon. 
<<<


Cetainly, Juston's school would have it's own rules regarding attendance, but where I teach, classes start in mid-August. We have an attendance policy that if a student misses ten or more times in a class in one semester, the student looses credit for that semester in that class (in compliance with a State law regarding students having 90 percent attendance). If school started on the eighteenth of August (as it did in my school), he could easily be in trouble regarding absences during those four weeks. Does anyone know anything about Wisconsin attendance policies and when school starts there?

Last edited by Andy Holcombe on 19 Jun 2004 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 08:46 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

By state law, Wisconsin schools typically start after Labor Day (the summer tourist lobby, dependent on youth labor, helped pass that legislation). School districts can apply for special dispensation, but generally even those schools don't start more than a week before the holiday. 

Of course, this is the Wisconsin of the Marvel Universe with which we're dealing.  

Still, placing the Sentinel/Inhumans tie-in on Sept. 15 would mean that by the time Labor Day comes along, Juston already has been missing quite a lot of school because of his dad's Chicago trips. This probably would mean that those trips happen a few times a week, which is unlikely.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 09:07 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks for the elaboration, Sean. Here are my thoughts on dates (in bold): 

We put pages 1-3 of issue #8 on Monday, Sept. 15, between pages 15 and 16 of issue #7. Then... 

Wed, Sept. 18 
issue #7: page 16, panel 1 -- San is showing Stacey how he creates art. It looks like the end piece is intended to be Attilan, but it's hard to tell for sure since we've never really seen Robert Teranishi's version of it from that angle. "It's wild. These past days have been so bizarre, so incredible..." 

Fri, Sept. 20 
issue #7: page 16, panel 2 -- Stacey and some other girls (presumably her sorority sisters) appear to be at a nightclub... sans San. (Couldn't resist the pun. Sorry. ) Stacey's wearing her hair up, so it's not likely to be the same night as panel 1. "I can see everything now. Everything makes sense. Two weeks ago, I never imagined someone like him existed. Now I can't imagine him not existing." A weekend? 

Saturday, Sept. 21 
issue #7: page 16, panel 3 -- Stacy is doodling San's name and cutesy hearts on her notebook. Technically, it might not be Stacey, since we only see her hand, but she's the only human in the series that shows any interest in him so I think it's a safe bet. "I know he feels the same way. So awkward and shy... I'm sure he'd never believe a girl like me could fall for a guy like him." 
issue #7: page 16, panel 4 -- San and Stacey go to a movie. Her hair's down here and San is wearing a ballcap. "He used to be the epitome of the ugliness I was so eager to get away from..." 

Sunday, Sept. 22 
issue #7: page 16, panel 5 -- San and Stacey are in a boat on a lake/pond/river. (It's a bird's-eye view so it's impossible to determine what type of water mass they're on.) Likely Lake Mendota, on whose shores the UW is situated. Stacey has a clearly different outfit on here than anywhere else. "... but now that I see what he's like on the inside, it's like the outside just doesn't matter anymore. It's part of what makes San who he is." 

Wednesday, Sept. 25 
issue #7: page 16, panel 6 -- Stacey is in her room, examining the art San made her on page 13. "And I would never want him to change who he is. After all..." 

Saturday, Sept. 28 
issue #7: page 17 -- "... he helped me finally realize where I belong." We start back into full sequences. At night, Stacey goes to her sorority house and withdraws from the group. 
issue #7: page 18-19 -- Stacey -- wearing the same outfit she had on page 17, with her hair done the same way (so it's almost certainly the same night) --visits San to tell him she loves him. He replies, "You're just a human." (Ouch!) 
issue #7: Page 20-21 -- Stacey's lying on her bed with a bottle of something. Presumably it's the same night, but she's just wearing a t-shirt and panties so it's hard to tell. Her roommate's mom calls and Stacey tells her that Kelly (the roomate) is at the Eta Rho Theta induction party. (I missed that earlier.) Stacey then looks at San's art from page 13. Looking at it again, I think it's supposed to be in a state of decay, but it wasn't drawn terribly consistently throughout the issue, so it's hard to tell. Okay, I've placed this scene 18 days after San makes the sculpture that was supposed to last 18 days. It makes sense that the sculpture would decay on the day Stacey is rejected by San.* 

Then we pick up with page 4 of issue #8 on Monday, Sept. 30 and go from there. 

This sequence means that San's chronology would read: 
INH4 7 
INH4 8 
INH4 7 
INH4 8 
Other characters' chronologies would read: 
INH4 7 
INH4 8 


*This would necessitate some rearranging of dates in INH4 4-7: 
Tue, 9/3 -- INH4 4 (1-7) -- first week of classes 
Wed, 9/4 -- INH4 4 (8-22) 
Thu, 9/5 -- INH4 5 (1-3) 
Fri, 9/6 -- INH4 5 (4-21) 
Sat, 9/7 -- INH4 6 (1-5) -- speech "later this week" 
Mon, 9/9 -- INH4 6 (6-20) -- the speech; maybe Tonaja has some difficulty with the concept of earth weeks; hey it is later in a TV Guide week  
Tue, 9/10 -- INH4 7 (1-13) 
Fri, 9/13 -- INH4 7 (14-15)
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 58

Posted: 10 Jun 2004 04:00 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for Daredevil #57-60.
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Okay, I wrote up the following review before seeing Jeph's review for the Pulse #1 and 2 was up. So now that I've had a chance to go over that, I'll post my thoughts on the how this story arc relates to events in The Pulse over there in that thread. 

But anyway, here's the latest: 

Chronology reviews for Daredevil #57-60. 

As I have given a synopsis for issue #56, the start of this latest storyline, (The King of Hells Kitchen) I figured Id go ahead and start with Issue #57, which picks up right where we left off last issue. You may wish to review my synopsis for Issue #56. 

Daredevil #57 
The King of Hells Kitchen pt. 2 
written by Brian Michael Bendis 
drawn by Alex Maleev 

Appearances: Matt Murdock, Ben Urick, Milla Donovan, FBI Agent Driver, Sano Orii, (a Yakuza crime lord). 

Synopsis: Pg. 1-2: Picks up where we left off last issue. Ben Urick is meeting with a mystery person, (whos face we are unable to see so far) in a restaurant. Their topic of conversation is Matt Murdock, who declared himself the new Kingpin last year. The quote from Ben last issue was Almost a year to the day when Matt Murdock took control of the Kitchen. At the end of last issue, in the flashback sequence, we saw Matt Murdock telling Milla, (his lover) to flee, and that he was about to be attacked. The issue ended with 100 Yakuza stepping around the street corner and preparing to kick Matts ass. 

Here, in this scene set in the present day, Ben begins to tell the story of what happens next. And so, we cut to: 

Pg. 3  19: As Ben continues his narrative, we see in flashback the battle between Matt and 100 Yakuza. 

On pg. 3, Ben notes that is was just yesterday that this battle between Matt and the Yakuza took place. A while back, we were wondering how far in the past this events were happening. Well, now were caught up to the present day, (by way of the Yakuza battle happening yesterday), and this is supposedly nearly one year later after the events of DD #50. 

Anyway, Matt fights like a devil, kicking and punching wildly, and unbelievably manages to hold his own for most of the battle. Oh, he does take a ton of damage, including sword slashs and bullets, but he continues fighting. 

Ben says he knows all this because he questioned all the witnesses, (people who living in housing complexes nearby heard the sound of battle in the streets below). He also notes that not one person could identify it was Matt Murdock as the mysterious redhead battling the Yakuza below, (meaning the people of Hells Kitchen are still covering Matts butt. Everyone knows at this point that Matt is DD, but no one says it aloud). 

The FBI finally arrive, and break up the gang war, arresting many of the Yakuza on the scene. Agent Driver, (the FBI agent whos been leading the DD case for many of the last issues) is there, and he searches desperately for Murdock amidst the confusion. But as the rest of the Yakuza disperse, no one can find any sign of Matt. Hes disappeared. 

Pg. 20  21: And so Ben concludes his story. The mystery stranger thanks Ben for telling all he knows about Matt, and the last year of his life, and we are then shown that this mystery person is none other than Milla Donovan, Matts lover from the last few story arcs. Milla reveals she doesnt really care about why the Yakuza may have a grudge against Matt, (Bens been trying to drive home the point that if the Yakuza knock off Matt, they make a big name for themselves in the Kitchen). Matt is missing, and Milla says all she cares about is that Ben help find her husband. 

Husband!?!? Ben says. Yes, the big surprise here is that Matt has apparently in secret married Milla at some point in the last year. 

References: Besides the Yesterday comment listed above, Ill note that it is raining throughout the fight sequence, so yesterday was a rainy evening in NYC. 

Also, Matt has a goatee in the battle with the Yakuza, (this is the goatee hes been wearing for probably the whole last year). 

Daredevil #58 
The King of Hells Kitchen, part 3 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev 

Appearances: Matt Murdock, Foggy Nelson, Ben Urick, Milla Donovan, Sano Orii, FBI Agent Driver, New Character: Agent Del Toro, (a new female partner for Agent Driver). 
Other New Character: The Night Nurse? 

Synopsis: CONTINUES FROM WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE. 

Pg. 1-4, 6: Ben and Milla continue their conversation. Ben agrees to help Milla by finding whats happened to Matt. He leads Milla out of the restaurant, saying hell guide her to a safe place, while he goes and looks for Matt. 

Pg. 5: Flashback: On this page, while Milla talks about Matt, and about all the misfortunes that have happened to him, we see in flashback a splash page of a young Matt Murdock holding the body of his dead father, as the body lies in the middle of the street. This has probably been shown before, (the classic scene where Matts dad is murdered and Matt finds the body). 

Pg. 7-10: Meanwhile, at an FBI holding station, Agent Driver and his new partner, Agent Del Toro, interrogate Sano Orii, the Yakuza who led the attack against Matt last night. Sano knows hes going to get off the hook easily, as they have nothing firm to charge him with, (Matt disappeared after all). 

Pg. 1117: Ben begins searching for Matt. He goes to see Foggy Nelson, who is holed up in the office of Nelson and Murdock. Foggy has hired a bunch of body guards, who pat down Ben and do a DNA test, just to make sure he is who he says he is. They finally let Ben into Foggys office, and the two talk. Foggy voices his frustration over Matts problems always spilling over and causing problems for him. Foggy notes that things were much simpler back when Karen page was still alive. This gets a thought going in Bens head. But in the end, Foggy refuses to tell Ben where Matt is. But Ben spies a piece of paper on Foggys desk, which reads, Water Front Medical Center, and he decides to try there. 

Pg. 18-22: Later that night, Ben goes down the Waterfront Medical Center, and upon entering this apparently seedy medical place, is confronted by a woman in a nurses outfit, who calls herself, The Night Nurse. She says the person Bens looking for isnt here. But Ben is insistent, and the Night Nurse gets a phone call, (from Matt, whos just down the hallway) and she tells Ben hes been cleared to go speak to Matt. Matt explains The Night Nurse is a figure who is sympathetic to superhero types, and who lets them heal in this place, no questions asked, (Matt jokes he couldnt file all these injuries on his insurance without raising a few eyebrows). Matt says the Night Nurse has been in business for years, and thats its a big secret, (this figure reminds me of that tailor from Amazing Spiderman #502, who provides costumes for the superheroes). 

Ben changes subjects, and comes right out and asks Matt about all this craziness thats happened in the last year. He asks if Matt feels he had a nervous breakdown after Karen Page died, (way back in DD2 #5). 

References: 

Right on page 1, we have Ben come right out and ask: Milla, when did you and Matt Murdock get married? To which Milla replies, About  about four months ago. May 4th. So going by that this is nearly 4 months later after May 4th. 

On page 2, when Milla again asks Ben for help, Ben replies, But I havent spoken to Matt in a year and a half. Hes referring to the events of DD #35, (I believe) when Matt came back from Japan, and decided to hold the press conference to deny being Daredevil. He at that time told Ben he wasnt going to share any more secrets with him anymore. 

Pg. 7: Agent Driver, (while interrogating Sano) refers again to the Yakuza attack as having happened last night. 

Also, in the final pages, when Ben finds Matt, Matt still has his goatee. I was wondering if maybe it was a fake goatee, (for when hes out in public) but if hes wearing it in the hospital bed, then its real. 

Daredevil #59 
The King of Hells Kitchen, part 4 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev 

Appearances: Matt Murdock, Foggy Nelson, Ben Urick, Milla Donovan, Sano Orii, FBI Agent Driver, Agent Del Toro, Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, Iron Fist, and Spiderman. 

Synopsis: Page 1-5: FBI Agents Driver and Del Toro are sitting in a car outside of a Federal Courthouse, watching as Sano is released from any charges. They see Sanos lawyers escort him into a car, (Sano is looking over at them) and watch as he drives off. Driver and Del Toro are frustrated, and dont know what to do next. Del Toro says they should seek out Murdock for help, but Driver scoffs at the idea. He says these Yakuza punks are just going to crawl back under the rock they came from. 

But just then, a truck pulls up, the door springs open, and a group of Yakuza riddle the two FBI agents car with bullets, killing Driver, who manages to push Del Toro out of the vehicle just in time, as the car explodes from all the gunfire the Yakuza put into it. 

Pg. 6-9: This scene continues from where we left off at the end of last issue, with Ben and Matt continuing their conversation in the hospital. Ben says that now that he thinks about it, he feels certain all this crazy stuff that happened is a result of a nervous breakdown Matt had after Karen Page died. Matt of course denies it, before falling unconscious from his wounds. Foggy enters the room, and says he overheard them talking. Foggy agrees with Ben: Matts had a nervous breakdown. Ben gets a phone call. His media contacts are alerting him to the assassination of Agent Driver. Ben warns Foggy they need to keep Matt hidden, as the Yakuza are still running rampant. 

Pg. 10-14: Narrative Caption reads: 9 days later. Matt wakes up in bed to find Milla next to him. She explains that Foggy and Ben had him moved to a private house that Foggy bought through extra funds that the Nelson and Murdock co. had on hand. Apparently Matt has spent the last 9 days shifting in and out of consciousness in bed here. Matt says hes now sufficiently healed, that its time to deal with the Yakuza problem. He gets on the phone to Foggy, (whos hiding in another location) and gets Foggy to bring him his Daredevil costume. 

Pg. 15-18: Cut to later that night, at Luke Cage and Jessica Jones apartment, (theyre living together at this point). Luke is telling Jessica not to rearrange his CDs, (they have apparently only recently moved in together). Just then, Daredevil arrives at the window, startling both of them. Jessica chews out Matt for not telling her ever while she was employed by him that he was Daredevil, (she apparently believed him when he told the public he wasnt DD). He apologizes to her, then takes Luke up on the roof, where he apologizes to Luke, saying Luke was right: Matt had gone to far, (hes apologizing for the argument Matt had with Luke, Reed Richards, Dr. Strange, and Peter Parker, in the park, as shown in DD# 56). Luke says an apology is all he needed to hear, and so they rush off into the night, ready to deal with the Yakuza. 

Pg. 19-21: Cut to still later that night, at the Yakuzas base in some nightclub in New York. Sano is rallying his troops, telling them that if they can finish off Murdock, theyll own Hells Kitchen. Just then, the wall comes bursting down, and the Yakuza turn to find in their midst Daredevil, Spiderman, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist, all of whom look ready to kick some butt. 

Pg. 22: Meanwhile, at the same time, Foggy is watching over Milla, in the safehouse where Matt woke up earlier that day. Milla can tell something is weighing on Foggys mind, and she gets him to speak his mind, (hes been thinking about Matt having had a nervous breakdown). Foggy asks Milla, Has Matt ever told you about Karen Page? 

References: pg. 16: Luke, (still recovering from the shock of DD showing up in his window) says, You havent worn your costume for- and Matt finishes by saying, For a long time. So after the 6 week reign of terror performed by Daredevil, (upon declaring himself the new Kingpin, as shown in DD# 56) Matt did indeed put up the costume, and this is the first time hes worn it since that time. 

Also, on page 17, when Matt looks to Luke, (with a look on his face asking why Jessica is so cranky), Luke says, Shes pregnant. Too which Matt replies, Oh. Okay. I read that to mean Matt didnt know she was pregnant. From the artwork, it seems Jessica isnt showing, (meaning its not too far along in the pregnancy, though just how far along is debatable). 

Also, on pages 6-9, when Ben is talking to Matt, Matt has his goatee, (along with several bruises). But on pages 10-14, when Matt wakes up 9 days later he is clean shaven, and the bruises on his face are gone. And of course, when hes in costume later on, he doesnt have the goatee. 

Daredevil #60 
The King of Hells Kitchen, part 5 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev 

Appearances: Matt Murdock, Foggy Nelson, Ben Urick, Milla Donovan, Sano Orii, Agent Del Toro, Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, Iron Fist, and Spiderman. 

Synopsis: PICKS UP RIGHT WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE. 

Pgs. 1-21: The four superheroes offer the Yakuza a chance to surrender. They of course refuse. And so Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, and Spiderman promptly proceed to kick all their asses. Daredevil shouts out to Sano, explaining You bring an army to take me down, Ill bring an army to take you down. 

Sano flees out a back door, and DD gives chase. DD and Sano have a knock down drag out battle, which ends up being mostly one sided, as DD wipes the floor with Sano. He then drags Sano outside, where the police now have this place surrounded. DD makes Sano confess to the murder of Agent Driver and to manufacturing the MGH drug, (the Mutant Growth Hormone, last scene being produced by the Owl in Issues #41-45 I believe). 

Matt later on that night meets up with the other 4 heroes, thanking them for the help, and telling them hes back in the superhero business again. They go their separate ways. 

Matt goes back to Milla, and tells her its over. Foggy has left, and Matt asks whats wrong, (he can tell somethings up). Milla asks Matt about this nervous breakdown theory that Ben started up, (Foggy told her about it). Matt says he doesnt know anymore, whether its true or not. Milla asks flat out if their getting married was a part of this nervous breakdown, and he says hes not sure anymore, and this makes Milla mad, and she storms out. 

Pg. 22: This is probably the next day. Ben is standing next to a newspaper machine, having just bought a copy of The Pulse. The cover story is about Daredevils return, and the Yakuza smackdown. Its written by Ben Urick, (so Ben is going over his own story). 

And thats how the story ends. 

References: On page 15, after handing Sano over to the police, one of the police officers asks Daredevil if hes the same guy who was around last year. To prove it, DD says, Weve met before, yes? And the officer says, Couple of years back. The Jester. DD responds, Yes. Yes, thats right. Ill just note that the last time the Jester was in a DD storyline was in the events of DD2 #20-25. 

Theres a full moon in the sky on page 17, as the four heroes go their separate ways. 

Also on page 17: Funniest moment ever: They all start to go their separate ways, and Spidey says hes got a hot wife waiting for him at home. Luke Cage and Iron Fist comment after he takes off that they thought Spiderman was gay! But hey, not only is it funny, its continuity! Mary Jane is apparently residing in the Parker home at this time. Peter also says that DDs problems have convinced him to keep his identity a secret forever. 

Also, in this issue, Sano says his name is Sano Ren. Back in Issue #58, Agent Driver called him Sano Orii. Oh well. That just caught my eye. 

On page 21, as Milla walks out the door on Matt, there are falling leaves around her on the sidewalk. Which would signal to me that its Autumn. 

On page 22, as Ben reads The Pulse, its raining lightly outside around him. 

Thats all for now. Now to get these events in line with events happening in other titles, such as The Pulse.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 02:55 am    Post subject: Night Nurse
By dimadick

"Other New Character: The Night Nurse?" 

Either new or a very old one. See: http://www.toonopedia.com/nightnrs.htm and http://www.geocities.com/paulo_costa_2000/INDEX_NS.HTM 

According to this articles: 

1) "Linda Carter, Student Nurse". A series published from Marvel concerning the adventures of a student nurse, "written by Stan Lee and drawn by Al Hartley". Issue #1 was published on September, 1961. The series ended with issue #9 in January, 1963. Linda had black hair. 

2) Linda Carter, Student Nurse made a guest appearance in "Patsy Walker" #99, published on February, 1962. This was reportedly her only crossover with another Marvel character. See: http://www.perpetualcomics.com/Column.asp?ColId=325 

3) "Night Nurse". A series published from Marvel concerning the adventures of Linda Carter, Night Nurse and her co-workers Georgia Jenkins and Christine Palmer. They faced "bomb threats, seriall killers" and even "gothic horror". This series was written by Jean Thomas and drawn by Winslow Mortimer. Issue #1 was published in November, 1972. The series ended with issue #4 in May, 1973. Linda had blonde hair. 

4) A person calling herself "Night Nurse" makes her appearance in Daredevil #58. She has black hair. This intrigued me and I did some research on the character. (I have a thing for obscure characters). 

Its uncertain if the 1960s and the 1970s Lindas are in fact the same person. Perhaps Linda makes her first appearance in 31 years in Daredevil #58? This would be her fifteenth appearance in all.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 08:41 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
References: pg. 16: Luke, (still recovering from the shock of DD showing up in his window) says, You havent worn your costume for- and Matt finishes by saying, For a long time. So after the 6 week reign of terror performed by Daredevil, (upon declaring himself the new Kingpin, as shown in DD# 56) Matt did indeed put up the costume, and this is the first time hes worn it since that time. 
<<<


Except for the times he met Maya on a rooftop in DD2 52 and DD2 55.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 08:45 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Linda Carter, Student Nurse made a guest appearance in "Patsy Walker" #99, published on February, 1962. This was reportedly her only crossover with another Marvel character. 
<<<

This appearance would not be an actual appearance in the MU. It was established long ago that the stories in Patsy Walker comics were fictional adventures written by Patsy's mother. This is akin to those fictional adventures scripted by Bereet in Rampaging Hulk (see other thread).
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 08:50 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
He then drags Sano outside, where the police now have this place surrounded. DD makes Sano confess to the murder of Agent Driver and to manufacturing the MGH drug, (the Mutant Growth Hormone, last scene being produced by the Owl in Issues #41-45 I believe).  
<<<


Speaking of the Owl, are we to believe that he somehow escaped from prison? He's appearing in current issues of Spider-Man.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 09:23 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Also, on page 17, when Matt looks to Luke, (with a look on his face asking why Jessica is so cranky), Luke says, Shes pregnant. Too which Matt replies, Oh. Okay. I read that to mean Matt didnt know she was pregnant. From the artwork, it seems Jessica isnt showing, (meaning its not too far along in the pregnancy, though just how far along is debatable).  
<<<


Picking up an old topic of discussion, I estimate her to be about six months pregnant now. Ugh. Start showing already, Jessica! 

We'll see how her pregnancy progresses and if and when she delivers the baby. Some calendar adjustment may become necessary. One thing we need to keep in mind is that she was three months pregnant in ALIAS 28, in which Jean Grey appears. This suggests placement before X 142-150, the arc that leads to Jean's (yeah, sure) death. Calendar placement for that intertwines with a number of references in the X-universe to the end of a school year and the beginning of summer. 

If it's truly autumn in DD2 60, we're pushing it. And if DD2 56 really occurs "almost a year to the day" after DD2 50, then we're really pushing Jessica's lack of visible pregnancy.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 02:50 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
References: pg. 16: Luke, (still recovering from the shock of DD showing up in his window) says, You havent worn your costume for- and Matt finishes by saying, For a long time. So after the 6 week reign of terror performed by Daredevil, (upon declaring himself the new Kingpin, as shown in DD# 56) Matt did indeed put up the costume, and this is the first time hes worn it since that time. 
<<<

Except for the times he met Maya on a rooftop in DD2 52 and DD2 55. 
<<<

I thought the appearance of DD from DD52 happened in the 6 week period. While the appearance in DD2 55 happened after the events of this current arc, because Matt has now decided to start wearing the costume again.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 02:54 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Speaking of the Owl, are we to believe that he somehow escaped from prison? He's appearing in current issues of Spider-Man. 
<<<


The Marvel Knights Spiderman series says in issues 2 and 3 that he was released from prison, (probably on one of those technicalities the lawyers love). The MK Spiderman series is also set a few months in advance of events happening in the other Spidey titles.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 09:28 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I thought the appearance of DD from DD52 happened in the 6 week period. While the appearance in DD2 55 happened after the events of this current arc, because Matt has now decided to start wearing the costume again. 
<<<


Yup, you're right. The DD2 52 scene did indeed occur during the 6-week spree. And now that you mention it, I like the idea of placing the scene at the end of DD2 55 after DD2 60. So be it.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 09:36 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
The MK Spiderman series is also set a few months in advance of events happening in the other Spidey titles. 
<<<

Kevin, is this something you read somewhere? My first inclination is to place the current Marvel Knights Spider-Man storyline (which featured the Avengers last issue) before the current "Royal Flush" story in Spectacular Spider-Man, which is an Avengers Disassembled tie-in. Just figured it was safer to put as many Avengers appearances as possible before the big shakeup coming in Dissassembled.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 09:49 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Hmmm...that is something to consider, (the Avengers appearance). I'm just going by the author's own words, from an interview. He said that by Issue 12 of the MK Spiderman title, the status quo will be shook up immensely, so he's setting his title many months in advance, so the events in ASM and Spec. Spiderman can wrap up their plots before the status quo is shook up. Too bad from the way things sound, the status quo in ASM and Spec. is about to be shook up in those titles as well... 

So maybe we should wait and see...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 10:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Well, the first story arc in Marvel Knights Spider-Man ends with issue #4. Perhaps they'll be gaps in the first 12 issues in which to insert other stories without mucking up continuity. As you say, we'll see. My calendar postings won't go this close to the present as there's still a lot of readjustment possible.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2004 06:14 pm    Post subject: Issue 61: the quick rundown...
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Okay, DD #61 came out yesterday, and I read it. Without doing a full fledged review, (I think it's just safest to wait till the end of the storyline), I WILL note the following... 

Milla has Matt served a subpeona, asking for an annulment to their marriage. On this legal document, in very small print, amidst all the legal mumbo jumbo, we see the date of their marriage listed as July 23rd. Which runs contrary to Milla telling Ben they were married on May 4th.  

Why is nothing ever simple? I figure you could use whichever one you desire more for the calender, Paul, but the one spoken aloud by Milla is probably a stronger reference... 

Also, this issue involves appearances by the Black Widow, and the Avengers. Going by the costumes, I believe this is the current roster, set BEFORE the big Avengers Dissassemble event. We see Cap. America, Iron Man, Scarlet Witch, and Hawkeye... 

There's a copy of The Daily Bugle which references a headline about DD and Black Widow, but above that, a smaller headline reads, "Trouble at the Avengers Mansion?" I bet that's Bendis doing a quick foreshadowing of Avengers Dissassemble, but I suspect it could be a reference to anything in the Avengers title... 

In fact this whole issue, (and this whole arc, I'll go ahead and predict) has the sneaking feel of Bendis getting warmed up for Avengers...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jun 2004 10:05 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
above that, a smaller headline reads, "Trouble at the Avengers Mansion?" I bet that's Bendis doing a quick foreshadowing of Avengers Dissassemble, but I suspect it could be a reference to anything in the Avengers title...  
<<<

I think we're pretty safe there. There have been picketers off and on at Avengers Embassy since the team was declared an international authority, so the "trouble" could refer to any picketing flare-up there. 
If DD2 61 follows on the heels of DD2 60, it would be roughly contemporaneous with the current Invaders storyline, according to my rough calculations. Hey, how does Hawkeye look -- leg and hand in casts or fine and dandy? 

You know that you got my curiosity piqued enough to request a review before its time? 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 03:30 am    Post subject: Re: Issue 61: the quick rundown...
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
On this legal document, in very small print, amidst all the legal mumbo jumbo, we see the date of their marriage listed as July 23rd. Which runs contrary to Milla telling Ben they were married on May 4th. 
<<<


If you really want to preserve both these dates, then they had two weddings - one civil, one religious. Not altogether unknown. The annulment writ, of course, will refer to the legal one.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 07:19 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

In the U.S., a church wedding has to be legal, a legal one doesn't need to be religious. To be married in a church, all your legal paperwork needs to be done and the civil authority must recognize the marriage. Matt and Milla cannot have married in a church first (in May) before a "legal" (civil) ceremony in July. (In other words, there's no point to a civil ceremony two months after a church ceremony because the church ceremony is legal.) The other way around is possible, though (civil ceremony before church ceremony). Of course, a subpoena would not have mentioned the date of a church ceremony for folks who would have been legally wed already.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 09:11 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Interesting side note that I don't know if anyone else caught. The SHIELD data files listed in the back of Secret War #2 list Daredevil's martial status as unknown. Coming from the world's biggest intelligence agency, it's a curious notation. 

Before Matt and Milla's wedding, he clearly would be "single." As soon as the civil paperwork and such were filed, he would be "married." He would still be considered "married" through the annullment proceedings until such time as they were completed, at which point he would switch back to "single." All of these are standard government papers that get filed daily; how would SHIELD not have access to those records? 

Would it be possible that Matt and Milla DID in fact have a religious ceremony first? Possible misleading the priest on their legal standing?

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 10:06 am    Post subject: Ceremonies
By dimadick

"In the U.S., a church wedding has to be legal, a legal one doesn't need to be religious. To be married in a church, all your legal paperwork needs to be done and the civil authority must recognize the marriage. Matt and Milla cannot have married in a church first (in May) before a "legal" (civil) ceremony in July. " 

The situation in the U. S may be far diffent from that in Greece, but isn't this usually the other way around? Civil marriages require minimal paperwork and expenses, concequently typically performed by those who can not afford a religious wedding. The couple may then procced in having a religious wedding when it can afford it. Taking into account the constant increase of church fees, the civil and religious marriages may be years appart from each other.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 06:35 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I don't think the U.S. and Greece are that different in that regard, but you may have misread Paul B's post. He's saying that having a religious marriage (in a church) prior to a civil ceremony doesn't make sense, since the religious ceremony is already legal. He then goes on to say that having a civil ceremony prior to a religious ceremony happens a little more frequently. 

If I'm reading you correctly, you're agreeing with him. 


watching: seinfeld

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 07:20 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Guys, I'm sorry I didn't make this clearer in my original review, but right there in DD#58, after Milla gives the date of their wedding to Ben, (May 4th) later on in that same conversation, she tells Ben a little more about the wedding: 

"We did it quietly. In his office. It was very sweet." 

So the wedding was a simple legal one, performed in his office, probably by a local judge.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 07:23 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
You know that you got my curiosity piqued enough to request a review before its time?  
<<<


Heh. I figured with the Avengers tie in you might.  

Okay, I'll go ahead and post a review for DD #61 and The Pulse #3 in the next day or two...or tonight, if I can just find time to write it up. 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jun 2004 09:12 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>1
Guys, I'm sorry I didn't make this clearer in my original review, but right there in DD#58, after Milla gives the date of their wedding to Ben, (May 4th) later on in that same conversation, she tells Ben a little more about the wedding: 

"We did it quietly. In his office. It was very sweet." 

So the wedding was a simple legal one, performed in his office, probably by a local judge. 
<<<


Well, there you go. That subpoena is incorrect. We can either chalk it up to clerical error in the MU or continuity error by Marvel staff.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 59

Posted: 19 Jun 2004 09:59 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for DD #61 and The Pulse #3
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Okay, here we go: 

Daredevil #61 
"The Widow pt. 1" 
written by Brian Michael Bendis 
drawn by Alex Maleev 
22 pages in length. 

Appearances: Matt Murdock, Foggy Nelson, Ben Urick, Captain America, Viper, (also called Madame Hydra), Falcon, Iron Man, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Nick Fury, the Ambassador of Bulgaria, and the apparent director of the CIA. 

Also, I think Kat Farrel, (the Pulse journalist from The Pulse comic), Jigsaw, and Modok qualify for a BTS appearance... 

Synopsis: It's unknown how much time has passed since last issue. Could be a short amount of time, could be a lot, but probably not too much time has passed. 

Pgs. 1-2: Matt and Foggy are in their law offices. Matt is going over a legal form which has been sent to his office. It reads, "Complaint for Annulment" There is a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo amidst the small print on the form, but I will point out the following: It reads in one section: "That plantiff Donovan and defendant Murdock were married on the 23rd day of July in New York City, New York." 

Which of course contradicts what Milla said in DD #58. 

But moving on... 

Matt is tore up about it all, and complains to Foggy that the legal document says he lied to her. He says he never lied to her. Foggy advises him to grant the annulment, that it'll be best for everyone if he lets her go... 

pg. 3-5: We cut to Sofia, Bulgaria. It's unknown if this is the same day, or later, (or possibly even earlier). Madame Hydra, (Cap. America also calls her Viper, sorry, I don't know jack about this character, except she's a former love interest of Steve's, right?) is sitting in a cafe's outdoor dining area, reading a paper, when Cap. America, (face mask off, but in uniform) walks up and tells her to surrender. He tells her that he knows all about her meeting up with Modok this afternoon, but says that Modok sold her out. She gets up and pushes a remote control, but nothing happens. Cap. America tells her that Iron Man has disarmed her bomb, so their will be no suicide bombing on her part today. He arrests her, and the other Avengers march into the scene, to take her into custody. But just then, members of the Bulgarian army step up to the Avengers, and they seem to have an agenda of their own... 

I'll note that the Avengers making appearaances here include Iron Man, Falcon, Hawkeye, and Scarlet Witch. They are wearing the exact same costumes seen in the Lionheart of Avalon storyline, (Hawkeye has the strange sleeve on one arm, but not the other). 

pg. 6-7: Cut to an indeterminite time later. We see a meeting between the Bulgarian ambassador and someone high up in the Pentagon, whom the ambassador calls "Director"...as in Director of the CIA? 

They are having a dispute over the acquisition of the Viper. The Bulgarian army apparently took her from the Avengers. The Avengers were to hand her over to US custody for her crimes against America. The Bulgarian ambassador says Bulgaria gets the right to prosecute her for crimes against their country. So they play politics. The Director asks what they want in exchange for handing Viper over. So the Ambassador says the people of Bulgaria would prefer another criminal to be handed over to them, to take Viper's place. He explains they want Black Widow handed over to them, for crimes she commited back when she was a Russian Spy. The Director says he'll look into it. 

pg. 8: We cut to the SHIELD Helicarrier. Fury gets a call from the Director, who tells Fury to recall Widow from the field immediately. Fury says she's on a mission, but the Director demands he abort the mission. Fury grudgingly agrees to comply. 

pg. 9-11: We cut to later on. It's nighttime in London. Black Widow is attending some sort of Grunge music concert, and after the show, meets up in private with the lead singer out back. She's making out with him, and he's drunk, and she's trying to fish information out of him, concerning he's apparently bragged that he's the nephew of Baron Strucker. She's about to ask more questions, when she gets a message over her communicator to abort the mission. She complies. We see it was Nick Fury himself who sent the message, back on the Helicarrier. He tells her to disappear for a while... 

pg. 12 -21: Cut to a different scene, some time later, (could be days later). Matt is showing a front page headline of The Pulse magazine which goes over again the connection between DD and Matt Murdock. It says, "DEVIL? HERO? KINGPIN? BLIND? IS THIS MAN HELL'S KITCHEN'S AVENGING DEVIL OR NOT? a feature report by Kat Farrel." 

This piece of sensationalism has stirred up the media again, Matt and Foggy conclude that Jameson must've had a slow news day, so he decided to bring all the Murdock/DD news to the forefront again). A bunch of reporters are waiting outside, to ask Matt's opinion on the newspiece. 

Matt leaves the office, and goes out to dinner alone that evening. He contemplates his fate in life, but determines he's satisfied, and that's he's gotten what he wanted: the streets of Hell's Kitchen are indeed safer now. His only concern is over his woman problems, (still upset over Milla leaving him)... 

He goes back home later that night, and finds Natasha inside. She says she just wants to crash here for a few days, and starts flirting with Matt, and he starts to be receptive, when he gets a phone call. It's Ben Urich, and Matt starts to chew him out over that piece in The Pulse, but Ben says he had no control over that. But Ben does go on to say he has recieved an inside tip that Jigsaw (an old Punisher enemy) is recieving a shipment of guns down on the docks. Ben urges Matt to go take care of it, as long as Ben gets the exclusive on it. Natasha is already in costume when Matt gets off the phone, and the two of them slip out to go fight crime. 

pg. 22: Cut to the next day, at the Pentagon. The Director is reading a headline from the Daily Bugle about Daredevil and the Black Widow busting a gun running operation on a New York Pier last night. This headline makes the Director furiuos, and he tells his sectretary to get Nick Fury on the phone "NOW!" 

And that's how it ends... 

References: In the London scene, there is a crescant moon in the sky. The crescant is on it's right side, and the blackness is on it's left. 

On page 14, as Matt flees his office, one of the reporters asks if he's DD. Matt says he answered that question "A year ago." A reference to his press conference. 

on page 18, Natasha explains she's been on the road "for over a year" and she needs a break. She's explaining that she's been doing SHIELD assignments for that length of time... 

Okay, that's it for DD#61...now onwards... 

'The Pulse #3 
"Thin Air pt. 3" 
written by Brian Michael Bendis 
drawn by Mark Bagely 
22 pages. 

Appearances by: J.Jonah Jameson, Robbie Robertson, Ben Urick, Peter Parker, Kat Farrel, Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, Iron Man, New Characters: "Det. Gans" and "Tommy" (an intern at the morgue), and Terri's friend Sheryl. 

In flashback, we see: Green Goblin, Terri Kidder, (or her body). This flashback shows the Goblin beating up Terri and throwing her body in the Resevoir, and is on pages 20 and 21. To be more specific, it's panels 2 and 4 of page 20, (which has 4 panels) and panels 1,2, and 4, of page 21, (which has 5 panels). The other panels on those pages show Ben Urich figuring this out in his head, as he stands around the Daily Bugle. 

pgs. 1-2: Narrative caption reads, "Daily Bugle, Today, 9:22 am" 

Jameson is holding an emergency conference. Him and Robbie break the news that they've found out one of their reporters was murdered. They make this story their top proirity and order Ben Urick and Kat Farrel to lead the investigation into how she died. Jonah says he wants answers by 2 oclock that afternoon... 

pgs. 3-7: Cut to across town. Luke Cage is meeting up with Jessica Jones at a cafe'. She's just broke the news to him that she's been offered a job to work for Jameson on the Pulse. Cage doesn't like it at all. They have a minor squable over it all, and Jessica breaks down and cries, and this softens Cage, who agrees to her having the job, (she had wanted to okay it with him). Just then, she gets a phone call from someone at the Bugle, and she tells Luke she has to go down there, that they're calling her in on her first case. They kiss and she leaves. 

pg. 8-9: Narrative caption reads, "Daily Bugle, 10:58 am" Ben Urick steps over to the now deceased Terri Kidder's office, to find a Det. Gans in her office. Ben starts to ask her some questions, but Det. Gans tells Ben she won't help him out at all, and the police are going to keep this investigation to themselves. It seems many of the police force have a grudge against The Bugle for always breaking stories that put the police in danger. Jessica arrives and meets up with Ben, just in time for Det. Gans to kick them out of the room. 

pg. 10-13: Cut to across town. Kat Farrel meets up in an alley behind the morgue with Tommy, and intern. She gets the inside scoop from the coroner on the cause of death: Someone big and heavy strangled Terri, then dropped her body from up high in the air into the resevior. They know it was from up high because of the impact on the body when she hit the water. The body was cited as being in the water for "At least 7 hours" 

As they sit there and talk, Iron Man flies by over head. Tommy says he flies by everyday at the same time and says, "He must live around here or something..." 

pg. 14-16: Narrative caption reads, "Central Park, 3:22 pm" Kat meets up with Ben and Jessica, and goes over what she's learned from the morgue. Ben and Jessica say "It could've been a helicopter or plane" but Kat says that it was determined to be some big guy, judging by the strangle marks, and they're suspecting a supervillian. They try and consider what person would drop Terri from up high, but come up with nothing. 

pg. 17-22: Narrative caption reads, "9:37 pm" We're now back at the Daily Bugle Office. Ben is frustrated over their lack of progress. He's alone, and he looks around, and decides to go have a looksie in Terri's office, (which was quartined by Det. Gans earlier). He goes in, and sees a new message on Terri's personal answering machine. He plays it, and hears a message from Terri's friend, (the one she had dinner with in Issue 2). The friend tells Terri to forget that stuff about people disappearing at Oscorp which she was mentioning to her "yesterday". She says she fears losing her job, and begs her not to look into it. 

Ben does some quick rationalizing in his head and quickly concludes it's Norman Osborn, the Green Goblin, who killed Terri! He then picks up the phone and dials up Peter Parker, who greets Ben friendly, but Ben says, "I need to talk to you. It's about Norman Osborn." And there's silence on the other end of the line...Ben's apparently just stunned Peter. 

The End. 

References: Okay, so since when does Ben know that Peter is Spidey and Norman is the Green Goblin? Well, it's my understanding that several people in the Marvel Universe suspect the Goblin is Norman...but as for Peter...well, Ben was relating to Milla in DD#56 about the confrontation between Matt and the other superheroes in the park, (of which Peter was a part). So Ben must know...how he found out, I don't know... 

Now I'll also note that this clearly must be the next day after Issue 1, (the body was fished out that night). And thus, it's two days after Issue 2. But during the meeting on page 2, Robbie says, "We lost one of our own last night" Well, she was murdered two nights ago going by this time line. He must mean the body was discovered last night. 

Also, on page 8, inside Terri's office, as Ben stops in, Det. Gans plays the answering machine, and sees there are no new messages for Terri. 

But later on, on page 18, when Ben does his own search of Terri's office, he discovers one new message. He plays it, and it's the message from Terri's friend Sheryl. In the message, Sheryl asks Terri to forget that stuff about Oscorp which she told Terri "Yesterday". Well, wasn't that 2 days ago? And the message had to be left that afternoon, because Det. Gans had checked the answering machine earlier that morning...Sheryl must've been mistaken. She does note in the message that she was a little drunk at the time she was telling Terri that stuff, (and she regrets it). That's the only way I can rationalize it... 

And no, Jessica's not really showing she's pregnant yet... 

That's it. Hope it helps...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jun 2004 05:27 am    Post subject: Viper and Ben Urich
By dimadick

"pg. 3-5: We cut to Sofia, Bulgaria. It's unknown if this is the same day, or later, (or possibly even earlier). Madame Hydra, (Cap. America also calls her Viper, sorry, I don't know jack about this character, except she's a former love interest of Steve's, right?) " 

Wrong. You probably confuse her with Diamonback/ Rachel Leighton. Both favorite characters to me but not nearly resembling each other. The basics on Viper. She was born somewhere in Eastern Europe and experienced war during her childhood. The traumatised girl apparently grew up with the conflicting ambitions of acclaiming power and influence over others but to eventually bring annihilation to the world. She debuted as Madame Hydra , the first known female operative of Hydra, in Captain America #110 ( February, 1969). She eventually severed ties to the organization. In Captain America #180 (December, 1974) she assassinated Viper/ "Jordan Dixon"/ Jordan Stryke, leader of the Serpent Squad , in order to claim his codename and organisation. 

By Marvel Team-Up #83 (July, 1979) she had formed a proffesional (and hinted personal) partnership with Silver Samurai/ Kenuichio Harada. In Spider-Woman I #42- #44 (February - June, 1982) she was revealed to have delayed aging due to a pact with the Elder God Chthon, trapped under Wundagore mountain, Transia. Her identity was also "revealed" to be Merriem Drew, long-lost mother of Spider-Woman/ Jessica Drew. This identity was retconned as mental manipulation by Chthon in Captain America #281 (May, 1983) though. In Captain America I #394 (November, 1991) Viper found herself rescued from prison by a long distance admirer: Red Skull/ Johann Schmidt. They formed a professional partnership (though scenes of swimming together in the pull probably hinted at a more personal relationship). 

In Wolverine II #125 - 128 (June - September, 1998) Viper brainwashed Jessica Drew, Phoenix IV/ Jean Grey-Summers, Psylocke/ Elizabeth "Betsy" Braddock, Rogue, Tyger Tiger/ Jessan Hoan and Yukio into versions of herself in order to capture Wolverine/ James "Logan" Howlett. Wolvie was saved by Black Widow II/ Natalia Alianovna Romanova, Jubilee/ Jubilation Lee and Shadowcat/ Katherine Anne "Kitty" Pryde. Only to learn that Viper wanted to call in an old favor by marrying him. They tied the knot and then the newlyweds had to survive assassination attempts by Sabretooth/ Victor Creed, the Hydra and the Hand. The whole game was for control of Madripoor of the Philipines islands. Viper became the "ruling prince" of the island. Logan forced her into a divorce in Wolverine II #169 (December, 2001). She was still ruling Madripoor when last seen in X-Treme X-Men #17 (October, 2002). 

See "The Viper Pit" for more information on her : http://www.geocities.com/mhydra/viperhome.html 

"References: Okay, so since when does Ben know that Peter is Spidey and Norman is the Green Goblin? Well, it's my understanding that several people in the Marvel Universe suspect the Goblin is Norman...but as for Peter...well, Ben was relating to Milla in DD#56 about the confrontation between Matt and the other superheroes in the park, (of which Peter was a part). So Ben must know...how he found out, I don't know... " 

I have no idea where Ben Urich found out about the identity of Spidey. Urich investigated the whole history of the Osborns and the Green Goblins in the one-shot "Spider-Man: Legacy of Evil" (June, 1996). He even wrote a book called "Dynasty of Evil" that revealed to the public the formerly secret activities of Norman Osborn as Green Goblin I and Harold "Harry" Osborn as Green Goblin II. Norman thoroughly discredited the book in Sensational Spider-Man #25 (March, 1998) by having his own grandson Norman Harry "Normie" Osborn kidnapped by Green Goblin V. The later's demand of ransom from a seemingly shocked Norman convinced the public that Norman and the Goblin are in fact two different persons.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jun 2004 08:25 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
(Hawkeye has the strange sleeve on one arm, but not the other). 
<<<


That's his armored sleeve. He's worn it in A3 77-83, in S-M2 2, and in HAWK3 6-8. (He's not wearing it in the current X-Statix storyline.) I'm going to assume that he's not wearing any casts (for injuries sustained in A3 79) in this DD2 61 appearance.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jun 2004 08:58 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
In Wolverine II #125 - 128 (June - September, 1998) Viper brainwashed Jessica Drew, Phoenix IV/ Jean Grey-Summers, Psylocke/ Elizabeth "Betsy" Braddock, Rogue, Tyger Tiger/ Jessan Hoan and Yukio into versions of herself in order to capture Wolverine/ James "Logan" Howlett. Wolvie was saved by Black Widow II/ Natalia Alianovna Romanova, Jubilee/ Jubilation Lee and Shadowcat/ Katherine Anne "Kitty" Pryde. 
<<<

Dimadick, why do you always write out everyone's real, full name after their codename? It's one thing to do it when making lists, but when you throw them into full-sentence paragraph structure, it's really weird. Not to mention, completely unnecessary. 

Just say "Psylocke". Just say "Wolverine". Everyone knows who you're talking about. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jun 2004 02:39 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
That's his armored sleeve. He's worn it in A3 77-83, in S-M2 2, and in HAWK3 6-8. (He's not wearing it in the current X-Statix storyline.) I'm going to assume that he's not wearing any casts (for injuries sustained in A3 79) in this DD2 61 appearance. 
<<<

Yes, from his one panel appearance, it appears Hawkeye is not injured here.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jun 2004 04:28 am    Post subject: Identification
By dimadick

"Just say "Psylocke". Just say "Wolverine". Everyone knows who you're talking about. " 

For fear of confusion with characters using the same or similar aliases. For all I know somebody could yet mistake this "Wolverine" for the Skrull who wouldn't debut until sixteen issues after the marriage and this "Psylocke" for then deceased Revanche.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jun 2004 08:53 am
By ADMINISTRATOR

But that's an unreasonable fear. Has anyone on the posting board made such a mistake? Certainly no one who's taken the time to read what's available on the Project. I have to wonder if that's the real reason: You didn't distinguish Rogue from the Rogue Doppelganger in Infinity War. You mention Phoenix IV/Jean Grey Summers. Is there more than one Phoenix IV? Is there more than one Tyger Tiger? 

If you do it out of a sense of completeness, I can understand that. Completeness is what we're all about here. But Jeph has a point. In the Posting Board section of the site, we should strive to communicate, and adding the alter egos of characters we already know detracts from communicating your idea. 

Including the /alterego notation would be appropriate if we were discussing who's who in the Psylocke/Revanche/Betsy Braddock/Kwannon mess, but in normal discussion, we know--or we should know (and if we don't, you could rightfully chastise us)--which Wolverine, Psylocke, Phoenix IV, and Tyger Tiger you're talking about. 

Aside from my anal retentive nitpicking, thanks for the post. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jun 2004 11:12 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

I'll just say that I agree with Jeph and the Administrator's point of view on this topic. But thanks for clarifying that bit about Madame Hydra. And not only did you JUST post a link, but you gave a very detailed synopsis. In situations where one of us professes to not knowing a character, (as I did) a quick rundown of the character's history like that really helps, (and is so much more informative than JUST posting a link). 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Thread 60

Posted: 10 Jun 2004 04:17 pm    Post subject: Sentinel #1-6
By PopularLoser

Sentinel #1-6 
============= 

Notes before I begin: I'm using the first Sentinel Trade Digest that collects Sentinel #1-6. At the present time, I do not have the remaining 6 issues but plan to get them. Also, the whole series as far as I can tell, takes place in Antigo (a small town in Wisconsin). And, with the exception of a few minor X-Men references, there is no link to anything else in the Marvel Universe. But I see no reason whatsoever to declare this book non-canonical. Story is by Sean McKeever. Art is by Udon Studios. 


Sentinel #1 (04/03) 
Sentinel #2 (05/03) 
Sentinel #3 (06/03) 
Sentinel #4 (07/03) 
Sentinel #5 (08/03) 
Sentinel #6 (09/03) 



Sentinel #1, pages 1-3. Day 1 (a Sunday): Justin Seyfert clowns around in his fathers junk yard until its time for dinner. While eating canned soup, Justin, his brother Chris and their father discuss what's going on in their lives. It is immediately clear that the family is working class, the mom is nowhere to be found, and Justin is not satisfied with his life. 

Characters: Justin Seyfert, Chris Seyfert, and their dad Seyfert 


Sentinel #1, pages 4-22. Day 2 (a Monday): The next day at school, Justin and his friends Alex and Matt (all sophomores) are hanging out when two senior jocks (Josh and Greg) pick on them. Justin also discovers that Alex no longer has the same lunch period as him. At lunch, Justin decides to eat in a classroom instead of the school cafeteria. There he meets a senior named Jessie who takes an interest in the introverted boy. On the ride home from school, Justins father notices that Justin is in a better mood. Justin tells him that he's met a girl. At dusk, Justin and Alex take out Justin's homemade ATV but it breaks down once the get into the woods near Justin's house. While trying to fix the ATV, they notice some downed trees and a giant crater with some broken machinery near it. They have no idea what caused this (although it's clear upon reading issues 2 & 3 that this was probably the site of a battle between Mutants and Sentinels). Justin salvages some of the machinery before hauling the ATV back home with Alex. That evening, Justin wires up a control chip he found while out with Alex to a toy a robot he built. The chip couses the robot to run into Justin's dad's junkyard. He and his friend Matt look everywhere for it but don't find it. They decide to wait 'till morning to look for the robot. Little does justin know that his toy robot has found the remains of what appears to be mutant-hunting Sentinel in the junkyard. 

Characters: Justin Seyfert, Chris Seyfert, Mr. Seyfert, Alex, Matt, Jessie, Josh, Greg and the remains of a Sentinel robot. 


Sentinel #2, pages 1-19. Day 3 (a Tuesday): Next morning, Justin's dad tells him that he's gotta go to Chicago and that he's takin' Chris because Chris is too young to stay home alone. He also tells Justin to take the bus home. At school, Justin goes into the senior hallway against better judgment so he can talk to Jessie. But he is stopped Josh, Greg, Dan and some other senior jocks. They're about to shove him in a locker when Justin kicks Josh in the balls and manages to escape. After School, Josh is standing in front of the bus Justin needs to take. Instead of going to the bus, Justin sits on the steps, not knowing what to do. When the buses leave, so do Josh and the other jocks. It's late afternoon before anyone notices Justin. And it just so happens to be Jessie. She offers him a ride home and he excepts. They talk during the ride home and Justin discovers that she has a boyfriend. By the time he gets home, it's dark. Before he goes inside, he notices that there's a light on in one of the shacks in the junkyard. As soon as he enters the shack, he sees a giant robot in a heap on the floor struggling to get up. After being scared for a bit, he decides to try and fix the robot. He spends all night in the shed talking to the robot while trying to get it's computer system running again. 

Characters: Justin Seyfert, Chris Seyfert, Mr. Seyfert, Alex, Matt, Jessie, Josh, Greg, Dan and the remains of a Sentinel robot. 


Sentinel #2, pages 20-21 & #3, pages 1-9. Day 4 (a Wednesday): Early that Morning, Justin notices that he's spent all night in the shed. Tired, he goes inside and immediatly falls asleep on his bed. A few hours later, he's woken up by his dad and brother who just got back from Chicago and are ready to go to school. Justin gets ready and goes to school. That afternoon, Justin is working on the robot and decides to test a few a things. During the test, the robot spews sparks and lasers from its hands, burning a hole in the side of the shack. His dad finds him trying to cover up the hole and they have an argument, largly about the fact that Justin is spending all his time alone in the junk yard. His dad tells him to wash up for supper. 

Characters: Justin Seyfert, Chris Seyfert, Mr. Seyfert, and the remains of a Sentinel robot. 


Sentinel #3, pages 10-21 & #4, page 1. Day 5 (a Thursday): The next day at school, Justin goes to the computer lab to search the net for real-life Giant Robot Weapons. He finds a (mosted likely dated) Daily Bugle article about The U.S. Government Sentinel Program. There he finds a picture of the X-Men (Cyclops and Wolverine in their Jim Lee/Early 90s era costumes) fighting a robot that looks just like the one he's been working on. At lunch, Justin is hangin out with Jessie when they decide to go explore the drama class costume closet. Their Justin asks Jessie out on a date to the school dance on Friday only to have her remind him that she has a boyfriend. Embarrassed, Justin leaves spending the remainder of the day waiting till he can go home and present his findings to the robot. That night, Justin decides to continue fixing the robot despite the fact that he now knows it is a Sentinel. Meanwhile, Josh, Greg, Dan and a bunch of their friends are hanging out drinking. Josh tells everyone that Greg got kicked in the balls by a sophmore named Justin. Dan tells him to pound the kid. Greg agrees, deciding that it is imperative to his reputation that he get back at Justin bigtime. 

Characters: Justin Seyfert, Mr. Seyfert, Alex, Jessie, Josh, Greg, Dan, Brenda, and the Sentinel robot. 


Sentinel #4, pages 2-6. Day 6 (a Friday): Justin is in shop class, using his time to work on components needed for the Sentinel. Later that night, Justin contines working on the Sentinel, inputing a prime directive that the Sentinel will not abandon Justin once it becomes mobile. 

Characters: Justin Seyfert, the shop teacher, and the Sentinel robot. 

Note: If day 10 is Friday, which it probably has to be to accomadate Justin's verbal invitation to Jessie, than there is a seven-day gap here. 


Sentinel #4, pages 7-21. Day 13 (a Friday as well): At school Alex and Matt confront Justin about why they don't ever see him anymore. Justin doesn't want to talk and walks away. At lunch, Jessie is in the classroom waiting for Justin but he never shows up. After school she tracks him down and they talk. She explains that she thinks he's cool and would have gone out with him if she hadn't already made plans to see her boyfriend. They hug while Josh looks on from a distance. That night Justin finally completes work on the Sentinel. He decides to take it for a test drive. The Sentinel works just fine. Across town, Greg, Josh, and Dan are spending their Friday nigh driving around discussing how they're gonna get back at Justin. They see Alex and his girlfriend Shelly hanging out and decide to go beat them up to send a message to Justin. 

Characters: Justin Seyfert, Alex, Jessie, Josh, Greg, Dan, Shelly, and the Sentinel robot. 


Sentinel #5, pages 1-4. Day 14 (a Saturday): Justin calls Alex's house and finds out what happened form Alex's dad. Justin decides to go over to Alex's house, using the Sentinel as transportation. Once he gets there, he and Alex talk. Justin is pissed off about what Greg, Josh, and Dan did and wants revenge. Alex tells him to calm down because he doesn't want anymore trouble. Justine spends the rest of the weekend programming the Sentinel to fight. 

Characters: Justin Seyfert, Alex, Alex's mother, Alex's father (bts), and the Sentinel robot. 


Sentinel #5, pages 5-15. Day 16 (a Monday): In the girls locker room, Greg's girlfriend Brenda and her friends are babbling and gossiping and suddenly mention Justine Seyfert's name. Jessie overhear's them and askes them what they're talking about. They tell her that Justin's telling everyone that they had sex, which of course he isn't. Later in the halls, Justine says hi to Jessie only to have her slug him in the face. She tells him what she's overheard and before he can tell her it's not true she storms off. Immediatly after that, Greg and Josh show up. They tell him that they started the rumor about Justin and Jessie having sex and start pushing Justin around. He tries to fight back but is slammed into the lockers. Greg and Josh continue to jeer at him while the crowd around them begins chanting the word fight. Justin begins to cry and yells at them to leave him alone. But Greg and Josh just laugh at him, satisfied with their revenge. Later, after driving home, Justin's dad tries to find out who beat him up but Justin won't talk. Instead he goes to the shack in the junkyard and rants to the Sentinel about how he never did anything to Greg and Josh. He decides that he's going to get his revenge on Greg and Josh by sending the Sentinel to attack them. 

Characters: Justin Seyfert, Mr. Seyfert, Jessie, Josh, Greg, Brenda, and the Sentinel robot. 


Sentinel #5, pages 16-22 & #6, pages 1-12. Day 17 (a Tuesday): The next morning at school Alex and Chris are sitting in the school yard when Jessie walks up to them wondering where Justin is. Apparently, she wants to apologize for yesterday. She also notices the bruises and black eye on Alex's face. Suddenly, the Sentinel appears from the trees surrounding the school. It starts shooting lasers at the building and talks in a robotic voise to the students as if it's an alien weapon sent to destroy humanity. The Sentinel than spots Greg and Josh and charges after them. It is about to kill them when Justin shows up driving a Dan's jeep and crashes into the Sentinel. The Sentinel runs away as if it's been scared off and the students praise Justin for apparently saving the day. 

Characters: Justin Seyfert, Alex, Matt, Jessie, Josh, Greg, many other students and teacher, and the Sentinel robot. 


Sentinel #6, pages 13-21. Day 18 (a Wednesday): Justin, Chris, their dad, Alex and Matt are eating dinner in pizzaria while watching the evening news. The news is almost entierly about the incedent yesterday morning at Antigo high school involving a "robot from outer space." The news has even proclaimed Justin to be a town hero and everyone in the pizzaria is treating him as such. After dinner, Justin and his brother and friends go and play some video games. Two girls walk by and make googly eyes at Justin. On the ride home, his father patronizes him some more. Upon getting home, Justin heads to the shed in the junk yard. He talks to Sentinel about how although he should feel good, instead he feels like a fraud because he only saved the school from something he sent there in the first place. Now he doesn't know what to do. After going to bed, the Sentinel begins to access previously unaccessable information within it's operating system. It discovers its Mutant Hunting protocols. 

Characters: Justin Seyfert, Chris Seyfert, Mr. Seyfert, Alex, Matt, Josh (on the news only), many other students and teachers on the news, and the Sentinel robot. 

Temporal references: Through the entire storyline there are green leaves on trees. Characters are wearing light jackets in many outdoor scenes. There appears to be a full moon (or nearly full) on a panel in p. 18 of issue #1 (putting it on a Monday) and there is defineatly a crescent moon on p. 16 of issue #4 (putting it on a Friday, almost two weeks after the full in #1).
_________________
<Insert Signature Here>

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 09:46 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quick question for now: is it "Justin" or "Juston"?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 10:58 am    
By PopularLoser

Oops. It is indeed "Juston."
_________________
<Insert Signature Here>

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 05:58 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, PopularLoser. 

I managed to snag a couple of issues of SENTINEL in a quarter bin recently. Thanks to your notes, I have a fair handle on the first six issues, although my calendar placement differs from yours, mostly because there's a reference in issue #3 to Juston having spent "four days" working on the Sentinel since issue #2. We have to insert those four days in there and that throws off your calculation of days. Aside from the dance being noted as occurring on "Friday," where there other references to specific days of the week in narrative or dialogue?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jun 2004 08:30 pm    
By PopularLoser

There is nothing in the dialoge aside from Juston's invitation to Jessie that explicitely states any particular day of the week. The issues mostly just title each day "The Next Day" or something similar. All of my calculations are based off of the Friday references and a couple of other things the character's say. However, I didn't go back and apply day numbers and days of the week until after the page write-ups and apparently forgot the four-day gap in issue three (oops again). That would push the beginning of #3 to it's own day (a Wednesday) and the end of #2 being a Saturday Morning. That changes the way I orignally read the issue, but I think it makes more sense chronologically. 

By the way, I just got #7-9. I should have write-ups done in a few days.
_________________
<Insert Signature Here>

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Jun 2004 05:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Hi, PopularLoser. Any progress on the write-ups for issues #7 on?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 61

Posted: 29 Jun 2004 03:51 am    Post subject: Sentinel #7-12
By PopularLoser

Paul B.-- Sorry I didn't get you these sooner. I did get #7-9 almost two weeks ago because I thought that #7-9 was one story arc and #10-12 was another. But as it turns out, #7-12 is the complete arc and it made better sense to do it all at once. Anyways... 

Sentinel #7-12 
============== 

Notes before I begin: It's been almost a month of Marvel Time since the last issue. Juston has spent the time building a remote to operate the Sentinel from afar and has been trying to help people every night with the Sentinel. 

Sentinel #7 (10/03) 
Sentinel #8 (11/03) 
Sentinel #9 (12/03) 
Sentinel #10 (01/04) 
Sentinel #11 (02/04) 
Sentinel #12 (03/04) 


Sentinel #7 (pages 1-21), #8 (pages 1-21), & #9 (pages 1-17): At 2:28 AM, a truck driver is driving his truck down the road outside Antigo. He is barely awake when he spots a deer and narrowly swerves to avoid it only to drive off the side of the road. He is saved by what looks like a giant robot. (There is what appears to be a full moon in the background). 

Later that day, Juston is at school hanging with Jessie and his friends when Ashleigh Nichols (a popular blonde cheerleader) walks by and starts hitting on Juston, angering Jessie. Across town, Agent Brian Rinehart of the Commission on Superhuman Activities (CSA) is on the phone to his superiors requesting a bigger budget for his investigation of the Antigo High robot incident. He also states that he knows about a number of bizarre incidents involving a giant robot helping people in the middle of the night, but explains to his superiors that he has no idea why. After hanging up, he and his crew start tracking the robot, finding what appears to be two blast marks on the ground. They deduce that the robot must have some sort of a propulsion system, but can't seem to figure out why it didn't use it during it's attack on the high school. 

Later that night, Juston drives out to a nearby lake and remotes to the Sentinel to come out. He has the Sentinel use it's hand blasters to become airborn and he and the robot head off to help people. Not long after, an airplane 30,000 feet above Wisconsin has some technicle trouble and begins fall from the sky. Just as Juston and the Sentinel return to the lake, Juston's see the plane overhead and watches helplessly as it crashes into a shallow part of the lake near the bank. Juston maneuvers the Sentinel over to the downed plane, in preperation to help possible survivors. Across town, Agent Rinehart gets a phone call from local law enforcement that a plane has just crashed near Antigo. He and his unit head out to the lake, to help possible survivors as well and investigate what the cause was. 

Back at the crash site, Juston is trying to communicate with the survivors inside the plane. The survivors easily figure out that Juston is a kid, but don't care so long as they survive. Juston has the Sentinel steady the plane while the some of survivors help an injured woman down to the door. Just as they are about to open the door, Agent Rinehart and his team reach the scene and attack the Sentinel. The Sentinel releases its hold on the plane and charges at the CSA team, leaving the survivors to fend for themselves. They manage to get the door open and but almost drown as water pours into the plane cabin. Meanwhile the Sentinel disables Agent Rinehart and the other CSA agents just as Juston jumps into the lake. The Sentinel remembers Juston's protocol that the Sentinel will not abandon Juston, and aides Juston in rescuing the plane crash survivors. Juston and the Sentinel disappear before law enforcement or the CSA can get to them. 

Issue 7 Characters: Justin Seyfert, Chris Seyfert, Mr. Seyfert, Alex, Matt, Jessie, Ashleigh Nichols, Agent Brian Rinehart, Agent Walsh, various plane passengers, and the Sentinel robot. 

Issue 8 Characters: Justin Seyfert, Agent Brian Rinehart, Agent Walsh, other CSA agents, some local cops, various plane passengers, and the Sentinel robot. 

Issue 9 (part 1) Characters: Justin Seyfert, Agent Brian Rinehart, Agent Walsh, other CSA agents, some local cops, various plane passengers, and the Sentinel robot. 


Sentinel #9 (pages 18-21) and #10 (pages 1-17): By the time Juston gets home, it's early morning. As he sits down on the couch, he turns the TV on and catches an on-scene news report about the plane crash. Feeling guilty that he was only able to save four of the passengers, he decides to wake his brother Chris and tell him what's been going on. He's just about to begin when his brother has a seizure as a result of his chronic migrains. Juston and his father rush Chris to the hospital. While his dad is talking to the doctor (who doesn't know what's wrong with Chris), Juston goes to the bathroom and practices telling his dad everything that's been going on. At school, Jessie finds Ashleigh waiting for Juston at his locker and gets mad at her for using Juston to enhance her reputation. They argue for awhile, until a freshmen walks up to them and tells them that Juston is at the hospital with his sick brother. Ashleigh rushes off, wanting to be there to comfort Juston. Jessie is still convinced that Ashleigh's intentions are less than pure and decides to go see Juston as well, getting Matt and Alex to accompany her. They find Juston asleep in the waiting room and all attempt comfort him. 

After taking Juston home, Mr. Seyfert decides to spend the night at the hospital. Juston tries to sleep but has nightmares about the Sentinel. He decides to go get the Sentinel and perform more good deeds. But when he gets to the lake, he finds Agent Rinehart and the CSA there. They ask him what he's doing so Juston lies, saying he's playing with his brother. After heading home, Juston sees lights on in the shack. There he finds the Sentinel and tries to find out what it's doing back here, but the Sentinel won't tell him anything. After Juston leaves, the Sentinel continues data recovery on it's mutant hunting files. 

Issue 9 (part 2) Characters: Justin Seyfert and Chris Seyfert. 

Issue 10 (part 1) Characters: Justin Seyfert, Chris Seyfert, Mr. Seyfert, Alex, Matt, Jessie, Ashleigh Nichols, Agent Brian Rinehart, Agent Walsh, and the Sentinel robot. 


Sentinel #10 (pages 18-22), #11 (pages 1-21), & #12 (pages 1-10): The next day at school, Juston is hanging out in the cafeteria with Alex, Matt, and Jessie when Ashleigh walks up and grabs Juston, saying she has to talk to him alone. She drags him to the Janitor's broom closet and asks him to go to the homecoming dance with her. Juston can't even finish the word yes before she kisses him. Later at the hospital, Justin can't get over the fact that Ashleigh kissed him. His father notices he's acting funny and asks Juston what's going on. Justin tells him that he kissed a girl and is about to tell him everything else when Agent Rinehart walks in and asks to speak to Juston alone. His father doesn't like the idea but Juston agrees. Back at Seyfert salvage, the Sentinel finishs it's data recovery and begins a mutant detection protocol. It detects one in downtown Antigo. Back at the hospital, Agent Rinehart tells Juston that he knows Juston lied last night. But before either one of them can say anything, Chris starts groaning loudly. The Doctor decides that they need to drive him to a specialist in Wausau (apparently a larger town not that far away from Antigo). As Chris is loaded on an ambulence, the Sentinel is cruising through the city searching for the mutant it detected and scaring the living crap out of the townspeople. Back at the hospital, only Mr. Seyfert is aloud to ride in the ambulence with Chris. Agent Rinehart volunteers to drive Juston and follow the ambulence. But instead of following the ambulence he grills Juston about the inconsistencies of all the details about the robot. He tries to get Juston to confess to reparing the robot, sending it Antigo high, and using the robot to try and help people every night for the last month but Juston won't cooperate. Rinehart even reveals that he knows the robots a Sentinel. Just as Juston is about to finally tell the truth, the ground starts shaking all around the car and the Sentinel appears, running down the road at top speed. Rinehart starts the car and speeds down the road, trying to get away but the Sentinel easily catches up. Juston sticks his head out the window and tries to reason with the Sentinel but is almost hit by a blast. Rinehart pulls Juston back into the car but crashes just as he makes a turn. He tells Juston to run for cover as he reveals that he's the mutant that the Sentinel is after. Rinehart is eventually able to disable the Sentinel but is killed nonetheless. Hours later, Juston reaches the hospital in Wausau with the help of the CSA. He reunites with his father and brother, who is now getting adaquate care. 

Issue 10 (part 2) Characters: Justin Seyfert, Chris Seyfert, Mr. Seyfert, Alex, Matt, Jessie, Ashleigh Nichols, and Agent Brian Rinehart. 

Issue 11 Characters: Justin Seyfert, Chris Seyfert, Mr. Seyfert, Agent Brian Rinehart, and the Sentinel robot. 

Issue 12 (part 1) Characters: Justin Seyfert, Chris Seyfert, Mr. Seyfert, Agent Brian Rinehart, Agent Walsh, and the Sentinel robot. 


Sentinel #12 (page 11): A week later, Chris is finally deemed well enough to go home. He and Juston happily reunite. 

Issue 12 (part 2) Characters: Justin Seyfert, Chris Seyfert, and Mr. Seyfert. 


Sentinel #12 (pages 12-20): The next day at school, Juston is hanging out with Alex, Jessie, Shelly, and Matt when Ashleigh and a couple of her cheerleader friends walk up. Juston walks over to Ashleigh (they are now apparently an item). She tells him that the Homecoming dance is only two days away and that he will be presented a special hero award there. But before she can kiss him, Agent Walsh shows up and asks to see Juston. In an empty classroom, Walsh discusses the past events with Juston. He reveals that a number of facts don't add up (he also reveals for sure that Rinehart was killed by the Sentinel and that neither Rinehart's family nor the CSA was aware that he was a mutant. He also tells Juston to keep the all the details about Rinehart a secret and that some technicians will be coming to acces the Sentinel's hard drives and take it back to Langley Air Force Base. 

That night Juston hugs his brother goodnight, and than drives his ATV down to the CSA base three miles outside Antigo. He sneaks in and reactivates the Sentinel. He is somehow able to get the Sentinel out of the base and back to Seyfert Salvage where he spends the night fixing up the Sentinel. 

Issue 12 (part 3) Characters: Justin Seyfert, Chris Seyfert, Alex, Matt, Shelly, Jessie, Ashleigh Nichols, Agent Walsh, and the Sentinel robot. 


Sentinel #12 (pages 21-22): The next morning, Mr. Seyfert is all ready to take Juston and Chris to school. But Juston isn't in his room. Instead he has run away from home with the Sentinel. Obviously the story was supposed to continue Juston's adventures from here but the book was canceled after this issue. Here's hoping that the trade digests sell well enough to revive the book. 

Issue 12 (part 4) Characters: Justin Seyfert, Mr. Seyfert, and the Sentinel robot. 


Temporal references: It is now clear that the whole series takes place during the fall, due to the light jackets, homecoming dance references, and the fact that in issue twelve an off-hand comment is made about the weather getting cooler. There is indeed a month gap inbetween inssues 6 and 7 and a week gap in the middle of issue of 12.
_________________
<Insert Signature Here>

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jun 2004 07:16 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, PopularLoser. A few questions: 

You combine issues in your plot synopses. Where in the plot do the issue breaks occur? 

Rinehart notes that Juston and the robot have been helping people for a month. Is "every night for the last month" the accurate quotation? 

You mention that there's a reference to the weather getting cooler in issue #12. What was the exact quotation, is it narrative or dialog, and where in issue #12 is it noted? 

BTW, based on current clues, my inclination is to place these six issues in early to mid November.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jun 2004 08:02 pm    
By PopularLoser

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
You combine issues in your plot synopses. Where in the plot do the issue breaks occur? 
<<<

Issue 7 ends with the plane crashing into the lake. Issue 8 picks up right after #7 and ends with the CSA attacking the Sentinel. Issue 9 picks up right after #8 and ends with Chris having a seizure. Issue 10 starts later on the same day as the end of #9 and ends with Agent Rinehart showing up at the Hospital to speak to Juston. Issue 11 picks up right after #10 and ends with Rinehart about to fight the Sentinel. Issue 12 picks up right after #11 and ends with Juston running away from home. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Rinehart notes that Juston and the robot have been helping people for a month. Is "every night for the last month" the accurate quotation? 
<<<

It's not made clear exactly how often Juston has been helping people for the past month except that there's been quite a few unexplained incidents that have baffled the CSA. What I should have said was 'many times during the last month.' 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
You mention that there's a reference to the weather getting cooler in issue #12. What was the exact quotation, is it narrative or dialog, and where in issue #12 is it noted? 
<<<

The exact quotation is "The mornings're gonna start getting cold pretty soon." This is said by Juston on the second day after the week long break in #12. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
BTW, based on current clues, my inclination is to place these six issues in early to mid November. 
<<<

Early November is better in my opinion.
_________________
<Insert Signature Here>

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jun 2004 08:43 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks for the added info. It's now in the calendar, and just in time...
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 62

Posted: 21 Mar 2004 12:16 am    Post subject: Someone care to explain all the dangling New Xmen plots?
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Okay, Grant Morrison is done. Finally. And I'm left with a big "HUH?" in trying to figure it all out. Can someone explain every single mystery that was supposedly "resolved" in the last few issues of New Xmen? 

What the hell is Sublime? 

What's the flippin' deal with the whale? 

Do we now know who all the WX characters are, (I saw the post by Jeph about the Cuckoo girls were WX opperatives...when the hell did that happen?) 

I saw on another message board that one of the Phoenix's in that group was Rachel Summers...is that true? Someone care to explain that whole scene to me? 

Someone also said that Apolyon was Fantomex...huh? 

I swear, I need footnotes just to figure it all out! 

Also, this week's Wolverine #12 was equally frustrating...was Pheonix influencing Logan's dream? And does this mean that Wolverine #12 comes AFTER the events of New Xmen #150? (there's a reference in the dream sequence to Logan killing Jean Grey, ala New Xmen #148...I think...)
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2004 03:29 am    
By Peter Fabricius

Quote: 
>>>
Someone also said that Apolyon was Fantomex...huh?  
<<<

I haven't read the issue yet, I won't get it until friday. But I must admit when I first saw Apolyon I immediately thought he looke suspiciously like Fantomex.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2004 05:54 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
What the hell is Sublime? 
<<<

Sublime is a sentient bacteria colony - a hive mind, basically. It takes over host bodies and wants to steer evolution to make sure it continues to survive. Essentially, it's an infection. Sublime considers the emergence of mutants to be a threat to its future existence and has therefore been motivating various plans to wipe them out. 

Kick turns out to have been not merely a drug but a device for infecting mutants. Any character taking Kick was therefore under the influence of Sublime at the time. (Hence Magneto's rather erratic behaviour in New York.) 


Quote: 
>>>
What's the flippin' deal with the whale? 
<<<

The whale is unimportant. It's just a future mutant. 


Quote: 
>>>
Do we now know who all the WX characters are, (I saw the post by Jeph about the Cuckoo girls were WX opperatives...when the hell did that happen?) 
<<<

When the surviving Cuckoos are using Cerebra in the Xavier institute, Cerebra refers to them as "Stepford Cuckoos, version 01/03/04, Weapon XIV." The implication is that the two dead Cuckoos must have been versions 2 and 5. How they ended up with the X-Men is unexplained; perhaps they were a plant. 


Quote: 
>>>
I saw on another message board that one of the Phoenix's in that group was Rachel Summers...is that true? Someone care to explain that whole scene to me? 
<<<

I can't see Rachel in there. As near as I can decipher, the idea is that (having obliterated the entire timeline around her) Jean is either dying or moving on to another plane of existence, and as she does so, she's united with the Phoenix counterparts from other universes. 


Quote: 
>>>
Someone also said that Apolyon was Fantomex...huh? 
<<<

Immediately after Appolyon removes his mask, the dying EVA has a garbled line of dialogue which actually says "Fantomex? Is that you?" This would tie in with the oblique comments earlier in the arc about something happening to Fantomex. 


Quote: 
>>>
Also, this week's Wolverine #12 was equally frustrating...was Pheonix influencing Logan's dream? 
<<<

Don't believe so. I can't see how that would help the story at all.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2004 06:09 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Sublime is a sentient bacteria colony - a hive mind, basically. It takes over host bodies and wants to steer evolution to make sure it continues to survive. Essentially, it's an infection. Sublime considers the emergence of mutants to be a threat to its future existence and has therefore been motivating various plans to wipe them out. 

Kick turns out to have been not merely a drug but a device for infecting mutants. Any character taking Kick was therefore under the influence of Sublime at the time. (Hence Magneto's rather erratic behaviour in New York.) 
<<<
 


Huh? Mutant Bacteria? Did we get any foreshadowing of this at all? I for one didn't see that plot twist coming....
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2004 06:23 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

There's some stuff in the earlier issues in which Sublime claims to have been around for millennia. Sublime also inexplicably turns up running BOTH the U-Men AND Weapon Plus.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 02:09 pm    
By Belacaleb

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
When the surviving Cuckoos are using Cerebra in the Xavier institute, Cerebra refers to them as "Stepford Cuckoos, version 01/03/04, Weapon XIV." The implication is that the two dead Cuckoos must have been versions 2 and 5. How they ended up with the X-Men is unexplained; perhaps they were a plant. 


On a side note, were we ever introduced to Weapon 11? There's Logan (10), Huntsman (12), Fantomex (13), the Cuckoos (14), and Ultimaton (15). Were we ever clued into 11? 

And does anyone know who that is on the screen after Captain America in issue #145? I'm not familiar with him...
_________________
Caleb Monroe - Writer 
Read Prince Charming online!

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 02:29 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

If you mean the guy with the US flag facepaint, I believe that's Nuke. He's a Daredevil villain.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jun 2004 03:34 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Okay, Grant Morrison is done. Finally. And I'm left with a big "HUH?" in trying to figure it all out. Can someone explain every single mystery that was supposedly "resolved" in the last few issues of New Xmen? 
<<<

There have been two comic book writers ever who I've not been able to tolerate because their craft is so poor: Chuck Austen and Grant Morrison. David Anthony Kraft (the first comic book writer I ever thought was just plain bad -- although I've mellowed somewhat since then and now think he's just very sophomoric) is a genius next to Morrison, and he doesn't have the attitude either. I think 1234 was the worst Fantastic Four story ever and... 

Wait. Sorry. Wrong thread. :laughing:

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jun 2004 01:54 am    
By dimadick

"If you mean the guy with the US flag facepaint, I believe that's Nuke. He's a Daredevil villain.' 

Was actualy. He is dead since Daredevil #233. For a detailed profile of Nuke/Simpson see: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/darenuke.htm

			*	*	*

Thread 63

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 11:13 am    Post subject: Marvel Edge
By PopularLoser

Does anyone happen to know all the books that were part of this now-defunct imprint?
_________________
<Insert Signature Here>

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jun 2004 01:10 pm    
By michel

I have listed : 

Double Edge : Alpha 
Double Edge : Omega 
Cutting Edge #1 
Ghost Rider : Crossroads #1 
Skrull Kill Krew #1-5 
Typhoid #1-4 
Punisher Vol.2 #1-6 
Daredevil Vol.1 #344-351 
Dr. Strange (3) #81-88 
Ghost Rider Vol.2 #65-72 
Hulk Vol.1 #433-439 
Over The Edge #1-5 
Doc Samson #1-4 
The Savage Hulk #1 

Michel

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jun 2004 10:14 pm    
By Starman

I'm not sure, but wasn't Cage (vol 2) also part of the Marvel Edge imprint? 

Oh, I think I remember now that it was part of the MAX imprint. Sorry, these different imprints are easy to confuse sometimes.
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Thread 64

Posted: 13 Jun 2004 12:17 pm    Post subject: Marvel Mini Comics
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

I have three Marvel comics that maybe someone can help me identify. I cannot recall where or when I acquired them. 

These comics are 2 3/8 by 3 5/8 (6.0 cm x 9.2 cm). 

Published by Marvel in 1981 according to the copyright on the inside cover. 

MARVEL COMICS GROUP and the issue number are bannered across the top. The title designs are identical to the regular issues of the time. 


i) The Amazing Spiderman  displays No. 1 on cover 

Title: In the Clutches of Doc Ock!" 

Peter goes to the World Computer Communications building the do research for a test in Advanced Computer Science the following day. 
He finds a robbery in progress. Spiderman webs the henchmen then tangles with Doc Ock who is trying to steal the main computer system. 

10 pages; 2 panels per page. Page 1 on inside front cover is a quick intro to the character. Page 10 is on inside back cover. Back cover is blank. 


ii) The Incredible Hulk displays No. 2 on cover 

Title: Follow the Leader! 
(on front cover says Trapped in the Lair of -- the Leader!) 

In an attempt to charge his body with more power, the Leader lures the Hulk to his laboratory in the south-west where he gasses him. The Leader then transfers the Hulks strength to himself, causing Hulk to change back to Banner. Being ignored, Banner reverses the machine polarity and takes the Leader by surprise; he reverts to the Hulk and game over for the Leader. 

10 pages; 2 panels per page. Page 1 on inside front cover is a quick intro to the character. Page 10 is on inside back cover. Back cover is blank. 


iii) Captain America.. displays No. 3 on cover 

Title: Satellite of the Red Skull! 
(on front cover says The Red Skull Strikes From Space!) 


Opens at SHIELD with Nick Fury telling Cap (seen on monitor) the president wants to see him. The President tells Cap the Red Skull has destroyed a major city to prove his point and wants control of the country or hell destroy more cities from his orbiting Skull Satellite. Using a top secret prototype stealth plane Cap assaults the satellite. In the ensuing battle Caps ricocheting shield activates the self-destruct and then both combatants beat a hasty retreat as the satellite explodes. 

10 pages; 2 panels per page. Page 1 on inside front cover is a quick intro to the character. Page 10 is on inside back cover. Back cover is blank. 


does anyone know the history behind them? 

Arthur

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jun 2004 01:12 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

You've got Bubble Funnies, my friend. 

Check it out!: 
http://217.196.238.182/big-tel/promos/mini/bubblefun.htm 

The main site, with all sorts of cool nonsense, can be found here: 
http://217.196.238.182/big-tel/ 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jun 2004 05:43 pm    Post subject: thanks
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

many thanks. I knew someone would have the answer!

			*	*	*

Thread 65

Posted: 29 Jun 2004 01:57 pm    Post subject: see "Here we are the FANTASTIC 4 Fan Video
By phonepkh
Hi EVERYONE if you have a High speed connection you can see the fan video . 
it is a music Video/comic style storyboard 
thanks. PK 
here is the link 
http://www.paulhone.com/song2.html

Last edited by phonepkh on 02 Jul 2004 03:12 am; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jun 2004 03:28 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Moved to Chat.  

Is this from the BLAMMO newsletter that just went out from Gormuu on the Masterworks forum? It was supposed to have some kind of movie link in it, but it seems like everyone's gotten it so far but me.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jun 2004 10:22 pm    Post subject: FANTASTIC 4 Fan Video
By phonepkh

yes this link is a direct link to the video...No dailup's will load, 
to slow...go to link and click player to watch video. it will work.  
http://www.paulhone.com/song2.html

			*	*	*

Thread 66

Posted: 23 Jun 2004 09:56 am    Post subject: Bullseye II
By Starman

In Bullseye II/Benjamin Poindexter's it says DD3 4 and DD3 5 between his appearences in DPOOL3 16 and DPOOL3 28. As DD3 isn't in the key, my guess is that you mean DD2, right? 
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Thread 67

Posted: 26 Jun 2004 10:32 am    Post subject: Incorrect codes (GZIL)
By lkseitz

The following entries have GZIL (one L) listed for Godzilla instead of GZILL (two Ls), most in multiple places: 

Black Widow 
Hercules 
Human Torch II 
Iceman 
Invisible Woman 
Red Ronin 
Scarlet Witch 
Vision
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Thread 68

Posted: 29 Jun 2004 01:03 am    Post subject: The Orb
By Breeder29

The Orb is listed as having appeared in Captain America 395. I believe this is a mistake. It's actually 8-Ball, a rather tacky villain from Sleepwalker. He's playing pool in the back ground of the back-up story. The Orb was dead by then, and though villains do come back from death quite often, it is, after all, the frigging Orb we're talking about. 
I hope this was in some way helpful.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jun 2004 11:29 am    
By SeanCurtin

The Orb also appeared in Deadline #2, so the Orb is back from apparent death even if that is 8-Ball in CA 395. 

-Sean
