	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Invaders in Namor Annual#1 fb; need help
2. Phil Sheldon addition (M/H&L 1)
3. SHIELD, Iron Man, & Captain America in YEAR 4
4. Ghost Rider chronology corrections
5. Help! Can anybody explain why . . .
6. Wolverine Xisle
7. Which comes first, Uncanny #442-443 or New X-Men #155-156?
8. Wolverine in "Devil's Reign" question...
9. Punisher Max is cannon! Joe Quesada told me!!!!!
10. X-Statix versus Avengers
11. Citizen V
12. The Angel - back story
13. Juggernaut - back story
14. is fantastic four 1234 canon?
15. Various flashbacks
16. Magneto - back story
17. Iceman - back story
18. Jemiah the Analyzer in Thor I#260
19. Hercules canon Q
20. Vapor in Wolverine
21. Placement of Cable & Deadpool
22. Sabretooth and Scalphunter
23. New Avengers and continuity (SPOILERS)
24. Krang note; Oracle attack
25. Professor X - Back Story
26. Astonishing X-Men #4
27. Legion of the Unliving were fakes.....
28. Guardians -- canonical?
29. Jennifer Kale
30. Chthon Notes
31. What's coming from Marvel in November...
32. Immortus, Kang, Rama-Tut, Scarlet Centurion
33. Zarathos question; Thor#431 showed....
34. Hellcat question
35. Absorbing Man and discontinuity
36. I have a differing opinion on the chronology of Johnny Blaze
37. Witches; name who that is......
38. Magma (New Mutants) in Hel? Index.......
39. Winston Churchill question

	Issue Analysis Forum
40. Venom #6-10
41. Captain America: What Price Glory? 2-4
42. Chronology Review for Punisher MAX #1-7
43. Iron Fist #1-6
44. X-Factor vol. 2
45. Marvel Double Features
46. What If v2 #28, 31, 48, 80
47. Venom: Sign of the Boss #1 & 2
48. Ghost Rider GR3 50 analysis
49. Citizen V and the V Battalion v1 #1-3, v2 #1-4

	Bug Reports Forum
50. Schedule for fixing bugs?
51. M/H&L missing issue number
52. Bad Links to Character Pages...
53. Hauptmann Deutschland to Vormund
54. Armageddon
55. Bad Hybrid link

	Chat Forum
56. Grayson
57. searchthemcp has moved!
58. Can The JLA's Big Seven Individually defeat The X-Men?
59. where could i find a pic
60. Scarlet which



Thread 1

Posted: 01 Aug 2004 04:15 pm    Post subject: Invaders in Namor Annual#1 fb; need help
By Enda80

Namor Annual#1 has a flashback in Bitbur Germany in the final days of World War II. It shows the Invaders (Namor, Bucky and Cap, Torch and Toro, and Spitfire) in a freed concentration camp. 

As noted, the narration says this takes place in the final days of World War II. Well, Japan surrendered on September 2, 1945. So, very literally, it would have to be in August or September of 1945.

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Posted: 01 Aug 2004 07:46 pm    
By OnionMan

The War ended earlier in Europe. 

http://www.fact-index.com/t/th/the_end_of_world_war_ii_in_europe.html

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Thread 2

Posted: 02 Aug 2004 11:36 pm    Post subject: Phil Sheldon addition (M/H&L 1)
By lkseitz

Marvel: Heroes & Legends (M/H&L) is missing from Phil Sheldon's entry: 

A 6-BTS 
MARVELS 2 (through p. 32) 
*** M/H&L 1 
*** MARVELS 2 ~ FF@ 3-BTS 
*** MARVELS 2 
*** M/H&L 1 
UTSM:SE-BTS 

I actually don't have FF@ 3 (just the Official Marvel Index containing that issue), but here's my basic analysis. We proceed through MARVELS 2 until the arrival of Reed and Sue's wedding guests. Then all heck breaks lose with the super-villains (not shown in MARVELS). I'm presuming most of Sheldon's scenes in M/H&L 1 are new and not in FF@ 3. Certainly any scenes of him interacting the the heroes are new. 

Next we go to the actual wedding (not in M/H&L 1), which is MARVELS 2, p. 33 and FF@ 3. Then the rest of the events in MARVELS 2 take place, including Sheldon handing his film from the wedding over to Barney Bushkin and the riots resulting from the Sentinels release. My take is that the final Sheldon bit of M/H&L takes place the next day (morning?), after the photos have been developed (obviously). The "next day" caption for the final scene with the young boys can either be treated as topical (can we do that?) or assume the riots took precedence on the front page immediately after the wedding, so the wedding front page photo was delayed a day. 

It looks like there's a lot of BTS entries missing for Phil Sheldon, but I'll have to limit my meager contribution to this. 

BTW, what story is in M/H&L 97? I missed that one.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 02 Aug 2004 11:40 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
BTW, what story is in M/H&L 97? I missed that one. 
<<<

An expanded version of Avengers #16, if I recall correctly... 

I think you're pretty well on the mark with the Sheldon stuff here -- I have all the books in question, but right now I'm working from memory. If I get a free minute (HA!) I'll give them a look-see. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 3

Posted: 03 Aug 2004 01:38 pm    Post subject: SHIELD, Iron Man, & Captain America in YEAR 4
By RLG

Two things have been bothering me as I review the TOS & ST stories circa September - November, YEAR 4: 

1) In ST 142/1 (page 6, panel 1-2) Fury, uses the Inter-Continental phone to check on Inferno 42. He ends the conversation by telling the other end to warn him if Batroc shows up. This is a reference to TOS 75/2, in which Captain America first meets Agent 13 as she is attacked by Batroc. Agent 13 is carrying Inferno 42 in a container. My thought is that TOS 75/2 (and its continuation in TOS 76/2) occur after or at the least during ST 142/1. This is not the case in Paul B's Avenger's calendar. 

2) TOS 76/1 is said to have a gap in it in both Iron Man's chronology and in the Avenger's calander. Within the gap, Tony appears in ST 143/1 as he takes control of SHIELD whille Fury is held captive by the Fixer and Mentallo. Where does the gap occur? 
A quick recap of the story: Tony revives Happy (who was the Freak last issue), who awakes with amnesia. Just then, Senator Byrd arrives and has Tony taken into custody. Tony is transported from the Senator's car to the Mandarin's Asian castle... to be continued. 

Here's my rough thumb-nail suggestion for a new order: 

SEPTEMBER 

TOS 73/1: Iron Man vs. Black Knight 
ST 137/1 - 141/1: SHIELD vs. HYDRA, Fixer escapes prison (Tony in ST 138/1 -140/1) 
ST 142/1: Mentallo & Fixer invade SHIELD HQ & capture Fury (Inferno 42 reference) 
ST 143/1: Tony Stark & SHIELD rescue Fury 
TOS 75/2 - 76/2: Captain America vs Batroc; meets Agent 13. 
A 26 (start): Wasp leaves to Henry to warn team that Sub-Mariner is coming 
TOS 74/1-75/1: Iron Man vs. the Freak 
TOS 76/1: Happy cured, Tony captured by Mandarin 
TOS 77/1 - 78/1: Iron Man vs. Mandarin & Ultimo 
AV 26 (end) Avengers vs. Attuma 

What do you think? 

- RLG

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Posted: 03 Aug 2004 07:48 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I'll defer to Russ to provide a response. I'm afraid I don't have the original comics to check, and according to my notes, the idea to place ST 143 in a gap separating the beginning and end of TOS 76 was his. 

But that placement explains why I have TOS 75/2 before ST 142. You see, according to the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, Cap appears in A 26 after TOS 76/2 and Stark appears BTS in A 26 between TOS 72 and 73. That automatically puts TOS 73 (and thus TOS 76 and thus ST 142, as above) after TOS 76/2 (and thus TOS 75/2). 

Your explanation of the sequence of events makes sense, and Olshevsky's indexes do indicate a plot crossover between TOS 75/2 and ST 142, but there may be some reason for Russ' gap in TOS 76.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Aug 2004 09:19 pm    
By RLG

Looking at my notes a second time, I need to make a quick revision: 

Beginning in TOS 73/1, Iron Man bursts into Happy's hospital room. During the story< happy is kidnapped by Black Knight. Iron Man rescues Happy and defeats Black Knight, but his power is so diminished that he is unable to move. The story ends with Iron Man helpless in Black Knight's castle. 

TOS 74/1 opens with Iron Man laying powerless in the castle. It is not until Pepper shows up and helps him recharge, that he is able to leave. Once they get back to SI, Senator Byrd telephones looking for Tony. Byrd tells Iron Man that he is coming to New York with a subpoena. 

By the end of TOS 74/1, Happy has turned into the Freak. Iron Man's search for the dangerous Freak and the ensuing battle takes up TOS 75/1. TOS 76/1 opens with Tony waking a cured Happy, then being confronted by Senator Byrd. This leads directly to Tony being captured by the Mandarin, etc.. (see previous posting above.) 

As best I can tell, there is no discernable break between TOS 73/1 to TOS 78/1. The stories within appear to occur within 2-3 days. I realize that sometimes a break MUST occur (like the months long taxi ride in FF 176), but other than Iron Man's listing in A 26 in the Official Guide, I can't see a reason to keep it as one flowing storyline. 

So let me revise my previous list to: 

TOS 72/2 (Iron Man vs. Mad-Thinker & Awesome Android. Happy's condirion turns for the worse in hosptial. Tony is on his way, but...) 
ST 137/1 - 143/1 (..he must first aid SHIELD vs. HYDRA, then Mentallo & Fixer) 
TOS 75/2 - 76/2 (Cap vs. Batroc) 
A 26 (beginning) (Cap back in mansion w/ team. Tony, having recently seen first hand the world of espionage cloak & dagger stuff devises a tamper proof message system for team. Also, during the Mentallo/ Fixer caper, Tony's heart is strained (pressure's of his commentment to the free world and his best friend needing him??) 
TOS 73/2 - 78/2 (see above) 

By the way, Tony Stark/Iron Man's BTS appearance in A 26 takes place 2p1 (thus the beginning.) Captain America tells Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and the Scarlet Witch that "Tony Stark sent me a note this morning! He's developed a new tamper-proof way for us to leave messages for each other!" (you know, until I started quoting Cap, I never realized how much he used the exclamation point!!!) Anyway, the BTS is in reference to the note, which could easily be sent from the [i]office of[/i]Tony Stark. 

- RLG

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Thread 4

Posted: 05 Aug 2004 02:15 am    Post subject: Ghost Rider chronology corrections
By JLH

GHOST RIDER II/JOHNNY BLAZE 
GR4 2 (Where's the rest of the MK series, and the 1/2 issue? I could'a swore someone did the analysis for it some time ago, and it doesn't exactly fall into the gap area) 

GHOST RIDER III/DAN KETCH 
TB 57 (the T-Bolts appearance is clearly the Marvel Knights Johnny Blaze revamp. The Dan Ketch version hasn't been seen since S-M 93. So this should be moved) 

Also, where's the WEREWOLF BY NIGHT volume 2 run from the Strange Tales imprint from 97-8? I see Man-Thing's is in the MCP, as are the Strange Tales issues which features the final issues of both series lumped together, but nothing for the mini. It has a Dan Ketch Ghost Rider appearance, which is what lead me to ask. 

I'm sure somebody's attached to all of these analysis wise, I'm just curious as to the statuses, and wanna make sure they didn't slip between the cracks.

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Posted: 03 Aug 2004 09:44 am    Post subject: Help! Can anybody explain why . . .
By WayneLW

. . . Marvel Super-Heroes #18, the first appearance of the Guardians of the Galaxy, ISN'T in continuity? 

Is it only their modern day appearances which are?

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Posted: 03 Aug 2004 05:21 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

It is only their modern day appearances which are so far cataloged on our site. Their appearances in Marvel Super-Heroes, Marvel Presents, Galactic Guardians, and Guardians of the Galaxy, among others, are in continuity, or canon. The list of books we consider non-canon are in the FAQ. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 05 Aug 2004 09:22 am    
By WayneLW

Thanks for the info!

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Posted: 06 Aug 2004 10:38 pm    Post subject: Wolverine Xisle
By stevesacre79

Hey. I was just wondering if Wolverine Xisle is canon, and if so, where would you place it? Is Wolvie's foster daughter EVER mentioned in ANY other comic book? Also, I was wondering what clues you used to place Wolverine: The Jungle Adventure where you did. Thank you.

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Posted: 06 Aug 2004 10:43 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

It's canon -- I personally haven't placed it anywhere, but try word-searching Paul B.'s calendar for "Xisle". 

Wolvie's foster daughter Amiko has been in quite a few other comics ... check this very site under her name for a list. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Aug 2004 11:29 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

stavesacre79 wrote: 
>>>
I was wondering what clues you used to place Wolverine: The Jungle Adventure where you did. 
<<<


Marvel told us it went there, in the X-Men Index #5. 


watching: tonight show

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Thread 7

Posted: 04 Aug 2004 10:55 pm    Post subject: Which comes first, Uncanny #442-443 or New X-Men #155-156?
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I wanted to solicit everyone's opinion on this -- I just got the "Uncanny X-Men: Bright New Mourning" TPB, which collects the issues in the subject line -- an epilogue to Morrison's X-run. Now, the TPB placed the New X-Men issues first, then the Uncanny issues -- but I'm not so sure that's the way to go. 

There's not much character overlap, but we've got the White Queen in both X #155-156 and UX #442, and Nightcrawler, who's BTS in UX #442, appears at the end of X #156. 

Now, in UX #442, the White Queen is helping locate survivors trapped in the rubble of Liberty Island -- and in X #155-156, she's checking in on the mansion's students in Salem Center. It seems to me that finding trapped survivors would take priority over checking on students that are already relocated to relatively safe housing ... and for this reason, I'd slot the UX issues first. 

Any other thoughts on this? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Aug 2004 05:50 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

UNCANNY X-MEN comes first, because there's a throwaway line in X-MEN establishing that Xavier has already left for Genosha. 

The sequence of the current storylines is also rather confused, through what seems to be a lack of co-ordination: 

UNCANNY X-MEN - Storm's team are described as "visitors" to the Institute. Icarus (Jay Guthrie) is present. Gambit can see, and is playing baseball. 

X-MEN - Icarus arrives at the School as a new pupil, and is given a tour. Storm's team are living at the Mansion. Gambit is blinded in action. Scott has only just announced the new team rosters. Shadowcat is present at the Mansion. Angel is also there, protesting about being assigned to Genosha (apparently in reference to an upcoming EXCALIBUR storyline). 

NEW X-MEN - Icarus is given another tour of the Mansion! To be fair, the tour is being given to all pupils starting at the school for the autumn term, including Surge, who complains bitterly about being sent on a tour of a building she's been living in for ages. So Icarus apparently does get two tours. Term starts in the course of the opening storyline. Cyclops is already wearing his ASTONISHING X-MEN costume as the arc begins. 

ASTONISHING X-MEN - Term is apparently already underway. Shadowcat arrives at the Mansion to take up her position with the team. Cyclops and co debut their new costumes. 

Now, obviously, some bending is going to have to go on here. As things presently stand, my inclination is that the correct sequence should be: 

UNCANNY X-MEN: Term is not yet underway, but the resident students have moved back into the rebuilt School. Gambit can see. Jay Guthrie is simply visiting the School. He seems uncharacteristically happy to be there, given that he's sulking in all other stories about being sent there against his will - presumably the decision hasn't yet been taken. 

X-MEN: Jay Guthrie arrives at the School. Term has not yet begun. Cyclops announces the new teams (presumably finalising some arrangements already partially in place). Shadowcat is visiting the Mansion. Storm's team have set up in the building by this point. Gambit is blinded in action. 

NEW X-MEN: Term begins. 

ASTONISHING X-MEN: Term is underway. Shadowcat moves in full time, having gone home to get her belongings from Chicago. Cyclops unveils costumes for the rest of his team (having changed his own a while back). 

Does this work...?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 05 Aug 2004 08:46 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
UNCANNY X-MEN comes first, because there's a throwaway line in X-MEN establishing that Xavier has already left for Genosha. 
<<<

Well, that in itself isn't conclusive -- because we don't see Xavier leave in UX #442 -- we see him en route. It's conceivable that he LEFT prior to X #155, was in transit for all of X #155-156, and arrived in UX #442... 

Quote: 
>>>
The sequence of the current storylines is also rather confused 
<<<

I agree -- unfortunately, I don't pick up the single issues anymore, so I won't be able to pay full attention to chronologizing the ReLoad books until they come out in TPB -- but from what I've gleaned by flipping through in the stores gives me a slightly different order... 

-Astonishing X-Men - the costumes debut and the students are given a general "welcome back" speech. Emma scans them for hostility or whatnot, which makes me think this is before they're split up into squads. Lockheed turns up in #2. 

-X-Men - Lockheed is present. Jay Guthrie arrives, very depressed. The X-Men are split into squads. Gambit is blinded. Kitty's line to Cyclops "I thought you didn't need me anymore" implies to me that the first AX arc is over. 

(X-Men continues on until such time as Gambit's blindness is cured, as we all know it will be.) 

-New X-Men - Jay Guthrie is present but less depressed. The students are split into squads. A sighted Gambit appears in #3. 

-Uncanny X-Men - the X-Men are already split into teams and Gambit has his sight (back?). Jay Guthrie is happy again. 


Dunno -- that's what I've got, but we've obviously got to hold off a few more months to allow the initial arcs to wrap up. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Aug 2004 09:37 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

FWIW, my two cents -- my current calendar notes for recent X-issues, picking up from where the posted calendar leaves off. 

A lot will depend on how quickly Gambit recovers from his loss of sight, but this is my take on the chronological order so far: 


Tuesday, July 1 
NEW X-MEN #151 (20-21) 
One day. Scott stands over Jeans grave. We see bare trees and leaves on the ground, which probably are topical. 
NEW X-MEN #151 (22) ~ NEW X-MEN #154 (22) 
The same day as X 151 (20-21). This segment must occur after Emmas appearance in UX 442. The Xorn/Magneto affair happened this past year. Scott mentions that Professor X has retired  this may be a reference to Xaviers stepping down as headmaster, a decision he announced in X 138 (10-14), but not to Xaviers leaving, which he does not know until X 155. At Jeans grave, Emma Frost tries to convince Scott to reopen Xaviers school. The bare trees and autumn leaves on the ground are probably topical, and who knows why Emmas wearing a fur coat and hat. 
NEW X-MEN #154 (23) 
The same day as X 154 (22). This segment probably occurs before W3 7. Thanks to the intercession of the deceased Jean Grey, seeking to avoid a bleak future (portrayed in X 151-154), Scott accepts Emma as his lover. We see blowing autumn leaves, which probably are topical. 
NEW X-MEN #155 
The same day as X 154 (23). Scott asks Hank if Xavier is planning on rebuilding the school, which is seen in ruins after its destruction in X 147-FB (20-21). Hank answers that hes left that up to us, Scott. Hes gone to Genosha with Logan...and Im not sure hes ever coming back. This dialog suggests that Xaviers departure was very recent, and Scott and Emma are probably here right after the completion of the rescue effort referenced in UX 442; Hank may have been stationed at the Institute. Emma wants to restart the school, but Scott and Hank arent enthusiastic about the idea; there are no construction vehicles or any sign of rebuilding at the Institute. Emma and the Cuckoos encounter mutant haters torching the temporary shelter for school survivors in Salem Center  last seen in NM2 13 (3-23)  while Scott and Hank discover that Cassandra Nova was freed from her force field prison when the school was destroyed. The falling autumn leaves are probably topical. 
NEW X-MEN #156 (1-22p3) 
The same day as X 155. It is several days before X 156 (22-24). Hank and Scott argue, then respond to Emmas summons for help against the attack on the shelter, where a mutant boy named Germaine is killed. The experience convinces Scott to join Emma in rebuilding the Institute. Since we see the Institute under reconstruction in XX 46 (12-23), this segment must occur before then. Green trees in Westchester. 

Wednesday, July 2 
X-TREME X-MEN #46 (12-23) 
One day, shortly after NM2 13 (3-23). This segment must occur before XU2 3 (1-2). The X-Treme team assist with recovery, not rescue, efforts (and thus probably post-UX 442) in New York City, where we see Cyclops, Cap, and Thor (in classic costume and thus after the Reigning); these efforts may have been going on for days since the arrival of the X-Treme team after XX 46 (1-11). Storm flies from the city to Xaviers, where we see some reconstruction already occurring; this places this segment after X 156 (1-22). After encountering Archangel there, Storm heads to Harrys Hideaway, where she meets up with the original New Mutants. The X-Treme team and the New Mutants gather for dinner in the complex beneath the destroyed mansion; this is another clue that this segment occurs after X 156 (1-22), as the Cassandra Nova situation must have occurred before now  the basement levels may now be considered a safe place and the mutants displaced by the torching of the Salem Center X-Corps building may now be residing here. Dani turns down Sams offer to be an X-Man and Storm rallies the X-Treme team to join her as XSE marshals. Rachel renames herself Marvel Girl. Green grass and trees in New York. 

Friday, July 4: Independence Day 
MYSTIQUE #14 (1-5) 
One night. A mutant escapes and is recaptured at the testing labs of Derma Free in Austria. 

Saturday, July 5 
MYSTIQUE #14 (6-10) 
The day after MYS 14 (1-5). Xavier appears to Mystique in a telepathic projection sent from Genosha, so this segment must occur after UX 443. He and Forge send her to Sweden to investigate Derma Free. We see Raven eating an ice cream cone at Coney Island. 

Sunday, July 6 
NEW X-MEN #156 (22p4-24) 
One day, several days after X 156 (1-22). Scott apologizes to Jean at her grave. We see green and bare trees and fallen autumn leaves at Xaviers, which is under reconstruction and is clearly not finished, despite Scotts statement that weve rebuilt the school. Members of the Uncanny team appear here. 
MYSTIQUE #14 (11-21) 
The day after MYS 14 (6-10). Mystique infiltrates Derma Free headquarters in Sweden and learns about the companys testing lab in Vienna. 
MYSTIQUE #15 (1-12) 
The same day as MYS 14 (11-21). Mystique escapes from Derma Free headquarters, having learned that the company uses her cloned cells. Xavier appears telepathically. 

Monday, July 7 
MYSTIQUE #15 (13-22) 
The day after MYS 15 (1-12). In Salzburg, Mystique encounters Shepard then infiltrates Derma Frees labs with Shortpack, who gets caught. 
MYSTIQUE #16 (1-7) 
The same day as MYS 15 (13-22). Mystique and Shortpack escape from Derma Frees Salzburg labs with the mutants they free. 

Tuesday, July 8 
MYSTIQUE #16 (8-22) 
The day after MYS 16 (1-7). Mystique goes after Viktor, Derma Frees mutant supplier in Prague. Xavier appears telepathically. Green, leafy trees in Stockholm. 
MYSTIQUE #17 (1-7) 
The same day as MYS 16 (8-22). Xavier appears telepathically to Raven in Prague and instructs her not to kill Viktor. 

Wednesday, July 9 
MYSTIQUE #17 (8-22) 
The morning after MYS 17 (1-7). Mystique knifes Viktor and the Salzburg police burst in on the freed mutants harbored by Raven and Shortpack. Full moon. 

Tuesday, July 15 
WEAPON X v2 #18  FB 
One day, several weeks before WX 18. Cyclops notes that Cable recently informed the X-Men that Neverland is a myth, following WX2 13. Logan mentions the files he accessed in the Weapon Plus compound, which places this flashback after X 146, and by extension, after X 150 (30-31). Logan tells the X-Men that its time to take down Weapon X and that the way to do it is to plant a mole in the organization. Among those gathered is Xavier, who is sitting, though not in a wheelchair; he must be crippled at this point, given that this flashback must occur after X 150 (30-31). Chamber volunteers to be the mole. 
WEAPON X v2 #15 
Perhaps the same day as WX2 18-FB. We see one corner of the Xavier Institute, in which Chambers room is located; this structure must be part of the new facility, not the one destroyed in X 147-FB. Chambers act to get him noticed by Weapon X goes into effect: he causes trouble in a Manhattan bar and the X-Men (Cyclops, Archangel, Husk, Iceman, and Wolverine) try to talk him down, but when Jono lashes out at them, they subdue him and hand him over to the authorities. Hours later, Brent Jackson shows up in Chambers prison cell to offer him a place in Weapon X. We see green grass and trees and warm picnic weather at Xaviers, but we also see autumn leaves, which may be topical. 

Saturday, July 19 
X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #3 (1-2) 
One night. In New Orleans, Gambit accepts a job from a Mr. Green to retrieve some discs from Tyler Winn, a man he is told is a rogue CIA agent. Full moon. 

Sunday, July 20 
X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #3 (3-11) 
The day after XU2 3 (1-2). Gambit discovers the true story of the discs, saves Winn from CIA operatives, and loses his earnings in the process. He says that the discs will go to a schoolmaster in Westchester, but that may be a reference to Cyclops, not Xavier. 

Monday, July 21 
X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #3 (12) 
The day after XU2 3 (3-11). Gambit reports back to Mr. Green. 

Wednesday, August 6 
WEAPON X v2 #16 
One day, long enough after WX 15 for the doctors at Weapon X to give Chamber a new face through surgery (as noted in WX2 19). It is several years after WX 16-FB. This story must occur after X 150 (1-31), as monitors in the Weapon X compound show a recorded video of Weapon XVs attack on Magneto. Brent Jackson shows Jono around the Weapon X compound and offers him a trial assignment, to kill John Sublime. Logan, probably here after UX 443, is seen doing surveillance on Jono. Green trees. 
WEAPON X v2 #17 
The same day as WX2 16. Chamber meets Logan in a movie theater (in a place where its raining) and discuss Jonos assignment to infiltrate Weapon X for the X-Men. Hours later, Jono agrees to kill Sublime, and that evening, he, Jackson, Sauron, and Wild Child attack Sublimes headquarters, where it appears to be a normal business day. Sublime and his U-Men root out the skulking Jono. 
WEAPON X v2 #18 
The same night as WX2 17. It is several weeks after WX2 18-FB. Jackson, Sauron, and Wild Child save Chamber, who then finds and supposedly kills John Sublime and reports back to Wolverine. 

Friday, August 15 
ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #1 (1-11p3) 
One day. Kitty Pryde arrives at Xaviers, just in time to be part of an orientation presentation to the student body, signaling the very beginning of a new school year. Kitty remarks that the Institute was destroyed and now it looks like nothing happened. 
X-STATIX #20 (22) 
Perhaps the night of the day after XS 20 (10-21). X-Statix attends a charity gala, their first appearance with the re-formed Vivisector. 

Saturday, August 16 
ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #1 (11p4-24) 
The day after ASTONX3 1 (1-11). Logan arrives at the Institute (perhaps after W3 12) and gets into a fight with Scott over his relationship with Emma. Scott outlines his plans for the X-Men and unveils the new costumes, which puts ASTONX3 1-6 before X 157, another beginning-of-semester tale. Ord and his group of mutant terrorists take hostages in the Chapman Building while scientist Dr. Rao announces a cure for the mutant gene. Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #2 
The same night as ASTONX3 1 (11-24). The X-Men defeat Ord and his gang and save the hostages at an annual fundraiser which Emma hasnt attended for the first time; its because her identity as a mutant is now publicly known, an indication that this story likely occurs the year after X 116. Tension builds between Emma and Kitty and Beast visits Dr. Rao. Green grass and trees. Full or gibbous moon. 

Sunday, August 17 
ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #3 
The day after ASTONX3 2. As mutants line up at Genetech to take Raos mutant cure serum, Beast examines a sample that Rao gave him, much to Ords displeasure. Scott and Nick Fury argue over Ord and the mutant situation, and Beast and Logan fight about the serum. Beast discovers that Genetech is testing the serum on the deceased Jean Grey. Green grass and trees in Westchester. Full moon. 
ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #4 
The same night as ASTONX3 3. 

Wednesday, August 20 
X-MEN v2 #157 
One August day. This story must occur after UX 439 and before NX 1 and UX 444. Construction on the new Xavier Institute appears to be completed, and the greenhouse has been up for weeks, but some work appears undone later in UX 444. Josh Guthrie shows up at Xaviers to attend school. Iceman notes that Xavier abandoned the school. Everyones up in arms about Scotts team assignments and the X-Men wear new costumes, a clue that this story occurs after ASTONX3 6. When Emma detects a disturbing mutant presence in China, Havoks team takes the five-hour flight there in an X-plane and encounters what appears to be Xorn. Green grass and trees in Westchester. 
X-MEN v2 #158 
The same day as X 157. Sammy gets to know his new roommate Josh Guthrie (now going by Jay). In China, the X-Men battle and defeat eight Chinese immortals. In the melee, Gambit is blinded and Xorns head cracks open, creating a black hole. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. 
X-MEN v2 #159 
The same day as X 158. Havok manages to contain Xorn and sends most of his team, except the bickering Cain and Bobby, to find Xorns helmet. Both groups encounter the Collective Man and the Chinese army. Jay familiarizes himself with Xaviers, where we see green grass and trees, and Sammy reports to Emma that he thinks Black Tom is on the grounds. 
X-MEN v2 #160 
The same day as X 159. This story must occur before ROGUE3 1. 

Thursday, August 21 
NEW X-MEN v2 #1 
One day, before a Monday on which the school has scheduled an assembly for which Scott must prepare. Since Josh Guthrie is on the new student tour of the Xavier Institute, this story must occur shortly after X 157 and probably before XU2 3/2 (1-2) and UX 444. Sofia has been in the States for only a year, since NM2 1 (5-7). David Alleyne and Noriko Ashida are 17, Sofia Mantega and Josh Foley are 16, and Laurie Collins is 15, making this story occur between one and three years after NM2 11-FB (8), in which Laurie is 13. The kids sneak into the Danger Room and run into trouble. 
NEW X-MEN v2 #2 (1-9) 
The same day as NX 1. Surge and Dust get off on the wrong foot as roommates. Cyclops (in his new costume) confronts Surge about the Danger Room escapade. Afraid that the students are being trained to be X-Men, David intends to leave Xaviers. 

Friday, August 22 
NEW X-MEN v2 #2 (10-17) 
The day after NX 2 (1-9). Jay Guthrie meets Danis and Emmas students. Dani reassures her students about new school policies to be announced at Mondays assembly. Iceman appears. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. 
ROGUE v3 #1 
One day. Rogue deals with a blind, bandaged, humiliated Gambit, so this story must occur after X 160. She goes on a mission with her teammates to find a reality-warping mutant girl in Mississippi. The girl gives Juggernaut a heart attack and Havok proclaims him out for a few weeks minimum. Rogue calms the girl and absorbs her powers. The X-Men take the girl back to Westchester while Rogue stays in Mississippi to find the girls family. Rogue encounters a man who knew Rogues mother and is immune from Rogues powers. Green grass and blowing leaves in Westchester. 
ROGUE v3 #2 
The same day as ROGUE3 1. 

Saturday, August 23 
X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #3/2 (1-2p1) 
One evening. This segment probably occurs after NX 1. Between 8:30 PM and 9:07, Josh (now Jay) Guthrie (aka Icarus) broods about his dead girlfriend at Xaviers, where we see green grass and trees. 

Sunday, August 24 
X-MEN UNLIMITED #3/2 (2p2-12) 
The early morning after XU2 3/2 (1-2). I placed Jay in this story between pages 17 and 18 of NX 2. At 3:07" AM, Cannonball checks in on brother Jay. They fly to Manhattan, rescue people from a burning building, and have a talk. Green grass and trees in New York. 

Monday, August 25 
NEW X-MEN v2 #2 (18-23) 
The Monday morning after NX 2 (10-17). Ive placed Jay in this segment after XU 3/2. At an orientation meeting for the students, Cyclops, Emma, and Dani introduce their student training squads, the Corsairs, the Hellions, and the New Mutants. The students now have costumes and code names. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. 
NEW X-MEN v2 #3 (1-19) 
The same day as NX 2 (18-23). The New Mutants and Hellions argue and Cyclops decides to have them compete in field day exercises. Nineteen-year-old Rahne tells sixteen-year-old Josh shes too old for him; age really should be an issue, as Rahne must be older than 19 by now. Emma and Dani find and recruit Kevin Ford for the school. Gambit cameos here without a bandage around his eyes, but it is not known for sure that he is sighted. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. 

Tuesday, August 26 
NEW X-MEN v2 #3 (20-23) 
The morning after NX 2 (1-19). The Hellions beat the New Mutants in their field day exercise. Green grass and trees at Xaviers. 

Tuesday, September 9 
X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #4 (1-4) 
One evenin. Juggernaut requests to be a gym teacher at Xaviers and Scott decides to test him. Sammy has a math test tomorrow. Green trees in Westchester. 

Wednesday, September 10 
X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #4 (5-12) 
The morning after XU2 4 (1-4). Logan mentions Juggernauts bust-up with Spider-Man last year (sometime before UX 411) and Juggernauts tossing Logan through a car two years back; these events may not match up to any published story. Logan tests Juggernaut and Cain passes. Scott gives him the job of gym teacher, with his first class scheduled for tomorrow and a semesters lesson plans due by next Monday. 

Friday, September 12 
X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #4/2 (1) 
One night. Emma invites Logan to accompany her to the wedding of old college acquaintances. 

Saturday, September 13 
X-MEN UNLIMITED v2 #4/2 (2-11) 
Perhaps the day after XU2 4/2 (1). Emma and Logan attend the wedding, where they are cooly received. Logan ends up fighting a bunch of guys and Emma outs the groom as a mutant. 

Wednesday, September 17 
UNCANNY X-MEN #444 
One day, after XX 46 (12-23). Since Josh Guthrie is at the school, this story must occur after X 157 and probably after NX 1. Gambit is sighted. Brian Braddock probably appears here after A3 81. The new mansion is still under construction, although much of it appears completed. On a sunny summer afternoon, the X-Men play baseball and tend to routine business and recreation at Xaviers, then Sage gives them missions. Rachel, Bishop, Sam, and Ororo battle mutant terrorists in Africa, while Logan and Kurt try to handle a powerful mutant in Washington state. Green grass and trees in both Westchester and Washington. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #445 (1-10) 
The same day as UX 444. Logan is forced to kill the powerful mutant kid to save lives and as he and Kurt are arrested, Storm and Warbird arrive to confirm their status as officers of the law. Carol appears in her classic costume, but she identifies herself as chief of tactical operations with DHS, placing this segment after A3 70 (16-20); she appears to be alternating between her classic and new costumes since joining the DHS. 

Thursday, September 18 
UNCANNY X-MEN #445 (11-22) 
The day after UX 445 (1-10). Ororo and Kurt share a dance in the sky over the Institute in what must be the wee hours of the morning, while in post-sunrise Britain, Rachel, Sam, and Bishop discover a cybernetic creature, the Fury, at Braddock Manor. Green grass and trees at Xaviers and in Britain. Full moon. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #446 
The same morning as UX 445 (11-22). The Fury keeps the X-Men at Braddock Manor at bay as he reaches out through the data network in the heroes sunglasses to possess Sage. Sage fights Kurt, Ororo, and Logan and gasses the Institute before fighting off the Furys control. Green grass in Westchester and England. Full moon. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #447 
The same day as UX 446. Sage, Kurt, Ororo, and Logan head to England, where they join the rest of the team and defeat the Fury, thanks in large part to Rachel. Green grass and trees in England. 

Wednesday, October 15 
WEAPON X v2 #19 
The day after WX2 19-FB. Maverick infiltrates an old safehouse of Cables, only to discover that its been taken over by Marrow and her Gene Nation, the terrorist successors to Nathans underground movement. Marrow convinces Maverick to join Gene Nation. Unbeknownst to them, Weapon Zero is in the facility. At Weapon X headquarters, Chamber discovers a room of telepaths. 
WEAPON X v2 #20 
The same day as WX2 19. Chamber contacts Logan, who is at the Hellfire Club, and reports on the telepaths; he plans to stow away on a transport about to leave for Neverland. Weapon Zero forces Marrow to divulge Grand Central Station as the location of Gene Nations current job, and Zero hurries there to face Maverick, who he believes to be the terrorist. In reality, the terrorist is a living bomb who explodes herself. In the rubble, Weapon Zero unmasks Maverick. 
WEAPON X v2 #21 
The same day as WX2 20. Maverick turns out to be Bolt, and Weapon Zero turns our to be Maverick. Bolt dies and Zero hunts down Gene Nation, slaying hordes of operatives, but sparing Marrow. Zero reports back to Weapon X headquarters, which he finds deserted. Logan tracks Chamber to Neverland, which he finds deserted. Full moon. 
WEAPON X v2 #23 
The same night as WX2 21. The message Roanoke is discovered by Logan at Neverland, Zero at Weapon X headquarters, and Fantomex at the empty grave of John Sublime. Full moon. 
WEAPON X v2 #24 (1-16) 
The same night as WX2 23. Fantomex goes to Weapon X headquarters, where he battles Agent Zero until they decide to work together. Logan takes a train to Roanoke. 

Thursday, October 16 
WEAPON X v2 #24 (17-22) 
The morning after WX2 24 (1-16). Fantomex and Zero arrive at Roanoke, where they encounter Logan. 
WEAPON X v2 #25 
The same day as WX2 24 (17-22). Logan recounts his unsuppressed memories of killing innocents as a Weapon X operative. John Sublime emerges alive and well. He tells Logan, Fantomex, and Zero of a war between the Weapon X and Weapon Plus programs and sends the U-Men to kill them. The heroes escape. Green grass and trees in Roanoke.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 Aug 2004 03:39 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

I'm not sure I follow why you've got Chamber leaving the X-Men to join Weapon X AFTER the destruction of the Mansion. Chamber disappeared from the X-Men titles months before, and it would seem to make more sense to have the relevant Weapon X story take place at around that point. True, there's a reference to "Planet X" in the storyline, but that doesn't come until after Chamber's gone through reconstruction by Weapon X's scientists, which could surely have taken a while. 

This also avoids the need to drag Xavier back from Genosha to appear in a WEAPON X flashback.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 06 Aug 2004 08:39 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

That's not right. Here's the reference in Weapon X v2 #18-FB, the scene in which Chamber volunteers to infiltrate Weapon X -- Logan states, "When Cyclops an' me recently stormed the Weapon Plus compound, I learned a few things...some of it was about myself...some of it was about Weapon Plus' possible connection to Weapon X." That clearly places WX2 18-FB shortly after X 146 and the destruction of the mansion. So where at the "Xavier Institute for Higher Learning" are the X-Men meeting in WX2 18-FB? Could be in a portion of the facility not destroyed (e.g. an underground portion; we don't see windows to the outside) or in some other building on the property. 

Of course, this means Xavier returns to Westchester to be involved in this meeting. He may have come back to see how the rebuilding was going. No one said he was divorcing himself from all association with the Institute, just that he's no longer running the show. He's been making appearances in Mystique (telepathically) and X-Statix this summer, too, so we'll see how his main title, Excalibur v3, unfolds and see what chronology makes sense.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 Aug 2004 10:21 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Of course, this means Xavier returns to Westchester to be involved in this meeting. 
<<<

...Or, that the meeting occurs before he leaves... 

I don't see UX #442-443 on here -- am I to assume, then, that this means you think they take place before X #155-156? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Aug 2004 04:09 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Yup, June 30. You'll find those issues at the very end of page 4 of the posted calendar.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 07 Aug 2004 05:44 am   
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
That's not right. Here's the reference in Weapon X v2 #18-FB, the scene in which Chamber volunteers to infiltrate Weapon X -- Logan states, "When Cyclops an' me recently stormed the Weapon Plus compound, I learned a few things...some of it was about myself...some of it was about Weapon Plus' possible connection to Weapon X." That clearly places WX2 18-FB shortly after X 146 and the destruction of the mansion.  
<<<


Unfortunately, that doesn't work either, because WX2 18-FB and WX2 15 both show Iceman in human form. He's supposed to have been trapped in ice form from "The Draco" through to the present day. Nor can the story be pushed back until after Iceman regains human form (if he ever does) because the X-Men are all wearing their Morrison-era costumes.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 07 Aug 2004 07:09 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Grr. Danged X-continuity.  

It's hard to ignore Logan's reference to UX 146 in WX2 18-FB; it's the catalyst behind his plans to infiltrate Weapon X. A plot-driven reference is going to have to take priority. 

As for Iceman...image inducer?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 07 Aug 2004 10:01 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I'm thinking image inducer too. "The Draco" can't be manipulated forward past X #146, since Prof. X is walking and "Xorn" is present -- and Iceman's WX appearances can't be manipulated back before X #146, because of Wolvie's explicit reference to X #142-146. I'm thinking Iceman's appearance is going to have to lose here... 

While we're on the subject -- Paul, your calendar reflects the notion that WX2 #18-FB (with Prof. X) and the opening of WX2 #15 (showing the mansion) might occur the same day. I'm of the opinion that they don't -- that WX2 #18-FB, where the X-Men and Prof. X hatch the Weapon X infiltration plot, occurs in the "days" between X #150 and UX #442 -- but that the plot doesn't go into effect until after Prof. X leaves and the mansion is rebuilt (for the sake of the costumes, let's say between Exiles #48 and AX3 #1). 

I think that Prof. X's appearance in X-Statix #19 occurs before UX #442, too -- look how distracted and muddled he is there. Looks like he's grieving for Jean and the Institute to me... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 07 Aug 2004 08:14 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I'm not enamored of sticking appearances between X 150 (the death of Jean Grey and "Magneto" and the aftermath of the Institute's and Manhattan's destruction) and UX 442 (where we see emergency salvage operations in Manhattan and the tending to "Magneto's" funeral). I don't think Xavier would be dealing with X-Statix right then (just not a priority), nor would Logan be hatching a plot to infiltrate Weapon X right then. They're still dealing with Jean's death and the results of "Magneto's" carnage. I'm thinking these events make more sense after the dust settles. And Xavier could have any number of reasons to appear distracted and muddled in XS 19; could be something to do with events in Genosha. 

Like I say, as XCAL3 continues to unfold, we might find a good opportunity for Xavier's appearances elsewhere. If that does happen, then it appears that Xavier is keeping the real Magneto's existence a secret from the X-Men. Tsk, tsk.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 8

Posted: 07 Aug 2004 10:20 am    Post subject: Wolverine in "Devil's Reign" question...
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Okay, everyone pull out your Marvel/Top Cow "Devil's Reign" books. 

Wolverine appears in chapters 3-6 ... but when we leave him in chapter 6 (Witchblade/Elektra), he's a prisoner of Mephisto. Does he ever get free? 

Does he appear on-panel or behind the scenes in the final two chapters of the series (Elektra/Cyblade and Silver Surfer/Weapon Zero)? Is there a point where Mephisto is defeated, and "all the souls" in his power escape, or something? 

Does Wolvie, by chance, appear on-panel or behind the scenes in the Top Cow crossover issues, CyberForce #29-30 or Weapon Zero #10? 

Or is Wolvie's fate in that crossover left unresolved? 

Any help would be appreciated ... thanks! 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 07 Aug 2004 02:25 pm    
By Ant-Man

I just checked Elektra/Cyblade, and I didn't find anything... 

Wizard produced Silver Surfer/Witchblade #1/2 as part of the Devil's Reign storyline. Does anyone have it, and where does it fit in?

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Posted: 07 Aug 2004 04:58 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I read through the 1/2 issue at a convention recently (its indicia title, by the way, is actually "Devil's Reign 1/2: Silver Surfer/Witchblade"). It takes place right before the rest of the crossover ... in it, Mephisto basically just talks about how he's going to invade this great new Top Cow universe he just found. 

Thanks for looking, Ant-Man. Anyone else have the other issues? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 07 Aug 2004 08:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I have Silver Surfer/Weapon Zero (chapter eight of "Devil's Reign"). Wolverine does not appear on panel at any point. However, at the end the Surfer declares that Mephisto's "deeds are undone and his captives shall all return to their proper places." So there ya go.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 9

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:26 pm    Post subject: Punisher Max is cannon! Joe Quesada told me!!!!!
Marvel Jedi

I instant messaged Joe Quesada and asked him the burining question and lo and behold Punisher Max is canon!!!!!
_________________
-snoogans!

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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:30 pm    
By Jhaeman

I've read interviews with Quesada where he basically takes the position that everything is canon because stories are more important that consistency, and that any apparent contradictions can always be ironed out later . . . 

Jhaeman

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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:01 pm    
By Ant-Man

Did Quesada understand the question? 

I agree that the MAX version of Punisher is probably canonical, but preserving the flow of the Marvel Universe doesn't seem to be his main priority...

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Thread 10

Posted: 09 Aug 2004 04:06 pm    Post subject: X-Statix versus Avengers
By Ant-Man

The recent storyline in X-Statix featured The Avengers...did anyone read these, and if so, do they fit into the Avengers chronology? 

All I saw from the advertisements was a fairly old Avengers lineup, so I was a little perplexed...

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Posted: 09 Aug 2004 08:58 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I've placed the Avengers' appearances in X-Statix sometime between A3 76 (the end of the story arc that re-introduces Hawkeye to the team) and 77 (the beginning of the story arc that introduces the new Captain Britain to the team). Thor is there during the span of time between T2 79 and 80. I have a tentative placement of those X-Statix issues during the "few weeks" between Avengers/Thunderbolts #1 and #2. Calendar placement is still a little squishy.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 10 Aug 2004 01:45 am    
By John Simons

Ant-Man wrote: 
>>>
All I saw from the advertisements was a fairly old Avengers lineup, so I was a little perplexed... 
<<<


Actually, Thor's the only one on the team in X-Statix who hasn't been on the Avengers during the last year or two. It only seems like an old line-up because Scarlet Witch and Hawkeye are both wearing silver age-era costumes for some reason (presumably because Mike Allred thinks they're groovy). Scarlet Witch has been wearing different variations of her costume in nearly every appearence she's made lately, so there's really no use trying to place any story based on what she's wearing. 

As Paul mentions, Thor must appear in the brief time between the end of the Jurgens' "Lord of Asgard" run and the current Oeming "Ragnarok" story. 

Ever since Paul B.'s calendar went up I've been meaning to reread all my Avengers books in his suggested order to see how it holds up. I will definitely read the X-Statix issues in the spot mentioned above.

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Posted: 10 Aug 2004 08:38 am    
By Ant-Man

From what I gathered, that was Hank Pym in the Ant-Man suit...does that complicate things, or am I incorrect that that is Hank?

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Posted: 10 Aug 2004 02:30 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

I don't think there's anything in the story to indicate that it's Hank rather than Scott Lang.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 10 Aug 2004 07:45 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Indeed, the identity of Ant-Man in this storyline is unclear. It could be Scott Lang, but of course that would mean that he went back to his old costume for this adventure (the old laundry excuse?). Then again, Hank Pym is not entirely out of the question, given that he's been switching back and forth between identities lately. Although that he would choose to be Ant-Man when Scott is on the team would be pretty insensitive. 

On the bright side, placement of Hawkeye in X-Statix between A3 76 and 77 makes sense, given that the X-Statix appearances are without the armored sleeve we see from A3 77 (and HAWK3 6) on.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 Aug 2004 03:52 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

True, but all the Avengers are out of their regular costumes in this story. I wouldn't place any weight on them - it's just artistic licence to use the Silver Age versions, in my view.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 11

Posted: 13 Aug 2004 12:55 am    Post subject: Citizen V
By SeanCurtin

CITIZEN V/JOHN WATKINS 
CA '98-FB 
**CV 1-FB 
TB -1 
TB 42-FB 
(TB 45-46 are appearances of John Watkins III, not John Watkins Sr.) 

CITIZEN V VI/JOHN WATKINS III: he was chronologically active as Citizen V before Zemo, so he should be listed first (in other words, John Jr. is Citizen V III and John III is V IV). 
TB 45 (body only) 
TB 46 (body only) 
**TB 47 (body only) 
**TB 48 (body only) 
**TB 49 (body only) 
**TB 50-FB (body only) 
**TB 50 (body only) 
**CV 1 (body only) 
**CV 2 (body only) 
**CV 3 (body only) 
**TB 54 (body only) 
**TB 55-FB (body only) 
**TB 55 (body only) 
**TB 56 (body only) 
**TB 57 (body only) 
(etc) 

-Sean

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Thread 12

Posted: 13 Aug 2004 10:48 am    Post subject: The Angel - back story
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

This one, of course, is much more straightforward - but still includes a couple of obscure flashbacks worth double checking. Everything from the point where he joins the X-Men (in an Origins of the X-Men back-up strip) is completely straightforward, so I'll just list the appearances before that point. 

X-MEN vol 1 #54, second story, pages ??? - This brief story spans a number of years, and at least three other appearances have to be inserted between its pages. Again, I don't have a copy, but I gather it broadly falls into three stages: (1) Warren as a young boy who keeps climbing things, and eventually is packed off to boarding school; (2) Warren as a somewhat unpopular but academically successful teenager, who discovers that he is growing wings; and (3) the school burns down, but Warren dresses as an angel and rescues everyone. I'm placing stage (1) at this point. 

MARVEL FANFARE #50, flashback - The MCP lists this as Warren's second appearance. I read it years ago but can't seem to find my copy. I believe this is something along the lines of a childhood relationship with a girl called Cressida - how old is Warren at this point? 

LOGAN: SHADOW SOCIETY - A cameo appearance. Warren's father takes him to the Hellfire Club for the first time. Warren has been dressed up in shorts and a bow tie, so he's clearly meant to be very young at this point. (The whole issue is a godawful mess so far as Wolverine's chronology is concerned, and Sabretooth is wrongly depicted in a costume he wouldn't assume for years to come. But for Warren, his age is the only real clue of any significance.) 

X-FACTOR vol 1 #47, flashback - This is a montage spanning the period from Warren as a precocious young boy all the way through to Warren as an unpopular teenager. Basically, it spans a period of years with three specific scenes - little Warren giving his teacher an apple, an older Warren refusing to attend his own birthday party, and teenage Warren giving a pretentious speech to a hostile class. Does this interweave with an equivalent montage in X-MEN #54, or does that story just skip forward several years? 

The remainder is straightforward: 
UX 54/2 (at least some of it - the school-burning scene must follow all of the above) 
UX 55/2 
UX 56/2 
UX 51/2 
UX 52/2 
UX 53/2 
MCP 85/3-FB
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Aug 2004 04:39 pm    
By Dhall

I covered Angel's origin pretty well in the issue anaylsis thread: 
Angels Origin incorporating Uncanny Origins 3. 


Dave H

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Posted: 13 Aug 2004 07:02 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, Dave. I see you've already covered the Beast as well, which is handy. Great work. I'm planning to start a section of the X-Axis website tracking the pre-debut appearances of the X-Men (and a handful of villains with obscenely convoluted histories) - would it be okay for me to draw on these as a starting point for those characters' pages, with credit to you? 

For what it's worth, I'm inclined to accept the canonicity of UNCANNY ORIGINS wherever possible (and I agree that the Cyclops one is too much of a stretch to fit in). After all, the purpose of the story was to recap continuity, and for the most part there seems to have been a solid effort to adhere to it. I'm still not inclined to touch PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN, though, especially now that the Marvel Age books seem to be establishing a whole line of "modernised rewrite" books that have no canonical status.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Aug 2004 10:42 pm    
By SeanCurtin

MARVEL SAGA #8 & #9 retells the Angel's origin from X-Men #54 with new art; the new art may include some previously untold scenes (not having any of those X-Men issues, I can't help there). Issue #10 does the same with new art in the origins of the Beast and Jean Grey from X-Men #49-53 and Bizarre Adventures; the recap runs up through the first several pages of X-Men #1. Previous issues presumably did the same with the origins of Cyclops and Iceman. 

-Sean

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Posted: 14 Aug 2004 08:41 am    
By Dhall

Paul, 
Quote away! I do think the Uncanny Origins deserve the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. For the most part they adhere to continuity. I just can't include the Cyclops one in this. Despite the cartoony art, I would, except that the person who wrote it clearly did not understand the details of those Cyclops Classic X-Men backup stories, and thus it has some major contradictions. 


I think when we do look at PXX we'll have to throw it out, if it gets continuity wrong, there wouldn't be any real point in adding a scene here or there, IF the rest of the issue contradicts the originals. 

Dave H 

(And now that I've flipped through a couple issues, I'm inclined to agree with Paul on this, there are too many divergences to make it worth trying to salvage.....)

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Posted: 14 Aug 2004 10:18 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Thanks!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Aug 2004 11:09 am    
By Dhall

Paul, 
It's an honor. I am really impressed by your X-Axis site. I like how it's clear, concise, factual, and that you obviously are willing to change something if someone points out an inacuracy. That puts it above so many other fan web sites. 

Dave H

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Thread 13

Posted: 15 Aug 2004 09:19 am    Post subject: Juggernaut - back story
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Don't worry, I'm not going to go through all of the X-characters right now - just the ones who debuted in the early Silver Age issues. 

A bit of digging turns up a surprising amount to add to Juggernaut's continuity. Here's my current list: 

X-MEN UNLIMITED #13, second story, pages 4-6 (flashback) 
Young Cain Marko attends the Halloween parade in Junction, New York. He is accompanied by his father Kurt and, in her only published appearance, his natural mother (unnamed, but Cain calls her mom). Cain wanders off and is attacked by bullies. He is saved by Marie, the reverends daughter, but runs away when she tries to comfort him. Cain later recalls this event as the occasion when he vowed that no one would get the best of Cain Marko ever again. (This flashback appears to contradict the previous issue, in which Cain said that his real mother died when he was 3.) 

X-MEN vol 2 #12, page 7 panel 3 (flashback) 
Flashback to Brian Xaviers funeral. Cain is behind the scenes, per X-MEN FOREVER #5. 

X-MEN FOREVER #4, page 11 panel 2 (flashback) 
The funeral of Brian Xavier. In the foreground, Charles kneels at the gravestone. In the background, Cain stands next to Kurt Marko. (The fact that Cain himself is remembering this flashback pretty much confirms he was there. This also establishes Cain as being behind the scenes in the funeral flashbacks in X-Men vol 2 #12 and X-Men vol 1 #12. This flashback should also be inserted into Professor Xs backstory continuity, taking place between the X-Men vol 2 #12 and X-Men vol 1 #12 appearances  ie, immediately after the panel of Charles looking at the gravestone, since thats what hes still doing here. Sharon Xavier must also be behind the scenes in this panel.) 

X-MEN vol 1 #12, page 4 panels 4-6 (flashback) 
Flashback to Brian Xaviers funeral. Cain is behind the scenes, per X-MEN FOREVER #5. 

Cains father, Kurt Marko, marries Sharon Xavier and moves into the X-Men Mansion. Cain, who is attending a boarding school, is expelled. 

X-MEN vol 1 #12, page 5 panels 4-6 (flashback) 
Cain Marko arrives at the Xavier Mansion, having been expelled from school. On meeting Charles Xavier, Cain immediately slugs him. (Cain acts as though this is the first time hes met Charles, even though they were both at Brian Xaviers funeral. However, perhaps they just didnt talk at that point.) 

X-MEN UNLIMITED vol 1 #12, page 22 panel 1 (flashback) 
Kurt Marko tells Cain to try and be friends with Charles, your new stepbrother. 

X-MEN UNLIMITED vol 1 #12, page 22 panels 3-4, 6 (flashback) 
Cain overhears as Kurt tells Sharon that Charles is gifted in ways we never imagined and is going to change the world. Sharon advises Kurt to devote more time to Cain. She believes that his behaviour is only an attempt to get Kurts attention. 

X-MEN FOREVER #4, page 11 panel 3 (flashback) 
Generic panel of Cain bullying Xavier. A different incident from the one above  hairstyles and clothes dont match. (Also add to Professor Xs continuity, after X-MEN vol 1 #12, page 5 panels 4-6.) 

X-MEN FOREVER #4, page 11 panels 4-7 (flashback) 
In order to separate the two boys, Kurt Marko takes Cain with him on a three week consulting trip to the Eugenics Information Centre in Nevada, a facility run by the Black Womb. Cain sulks in his room until his body is occupied by his own time-travelling future self, acting on a mission set by Prosh. Cain then sets out to explore the facility. [Alexander Ryking and Kurt Marko both also appear in this flashback.] 

X-MEN FOREVER #4, pages 10-17 
Cain discovers a large number of mutant babies in tanks of fluid, one of which is the infant Toad. He joins forces with fellow time-traveller Mystique [Alexander Ryking, Kurt Marko, Mystique, Destiny and Black Womb also appear.] 

X-MEN vol 1 #12, page 7 panel 5 to page 8 panel 4 (flashback) 
Charles overhears Cain trying to blackmail Kurt. Cain alleges that Kurt murdered Brian Xavier. Charles intervenes and confronts Kurt and Cain. In the following altercation, Cain knocks over one of Kurt's experiments. There is an explosion, and the Mansion is set alight. [The version in X-Men Unlimited #12 has different dialogue, including a glaring continuity error  Cain threatens to tell Sharon Xavier that Kurt murdered her husband. Of course, Sharon is dead by this point.] 

X-MEN UNLIMITED vol 1 #12, page 24 panels 1-3 (flashback) 
Kurt Marko picks up Charles and Cain... 

X-MEN vol 1 #12, page 8 panels 5-6 (flashback) 
...and carries them to safety. Kurt warns Charles about Cain, and reveals that he knows about Charles' powers. Then he dies (from injuries caused by the fire). 

X-MEN UNLIMITED vol 1 #12, p24pn4 to p25pn2 (flashback) 
Direct continuation from the previous scene, as Cain reacts to Kurt's death. 

X-MEN vol 1 #12, page 10 panel 6 to page 11 (flashback) 
When Xavier returns home with yet another trophy, Cain flies into a jealous rage and starts to smash Xaviers trophies. Xavier subdues him with a martial arts chop. 

X-MEN vol 1 #12, page 12 panels 2-5 (flashback) 
Cain drives Xavier to college after vacation. He drives recklessly in an attempt to scare Xavier. Instead, he crashes, but Xavier makes him jump to safety at the last moment. 

X-MEN vol 1 #12, page 15 panel 3 to page 16 panel 1 (flashback) 
Cain and Xavier serve together in the Korean War (though more recent flashbacks seem to be laying the groundwork to reassign this to Vietnam). Cain deserts under fire, and Xavier gives chase. They find the Temple of Cyttorak. Cain touches the gem and is transformed into the Juggernaut. Then the temple caves in, tapping the Juggernaut for years to come. 

X-MEN FOREVER #3 
Still buried under tons of rock, the Juggernauts body is possessed by the mind of his time-travelling future self. 

X-MEN FOREVER #4, page 5 
Still possessed by his future self, the Juggernaut claws his way out of the rubble and emerges on the mountainside. 

X-MEN vol 1 #11, behind the scenes 
Cerebro sets off an alarm as the Juggernaut approaches the X-Men Mansion. 

X-MEN vol 1 #12 
The Juggernaut attacks the X-Men Mansion. First published appearance of the Juggernaut. 

And that gives the following listing, with changes from the current MCP marked. (I realise, of course, that some of these are Gap books.) 

*XU 13/2-FB 
*X 12-FB-BTS 
*XMF 4-FB 
*UX 12-FB-BTS 
UX 12-FB 
*XU 12-FB 
*XMF 4-FB 
XMF 4 
UX 12-FB 
*XU 12-FB 
*UX 12-FB 
*XU 12-FB 
*UX 12-FB 
XMF 3 
*XMF 4 
UX 11-BTS 
{UX 12}
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Aug 2004 10:19 am   
By Dhall

Paul, 
Please keep going through the X-Characters.....It's definitly something that needs to be done. Can't wait until you're up to Wolverine...heh 


Dave H

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Thread 14

Posted: 15 Aug 2004 03:58 pm    Post subject: is fantastic four 1234 canon?
By Marvel Jedi

is it?
_________________
-snoogans!

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Posted: 15 Aug 2004 04:40 pm    
By StAkAr Karnak

Why wouldn't it be? I think Sean Kleefeld analised it with some depth when it was released and plugged it in at a specific point in the FF's history. 

- SK
_________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:StAkAr_Karnak

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Posted: 15 Aug 2004 05:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

For a previous discussion of the canonicity of 1234, see: 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=318&start=30
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 15 Aug 2004 08:46 pm
By StAkAr Karnak

Huh. I stand corrected. 

- SK
_________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:StAkAr_Karnak

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Posted: 13 Aug 2004 02:01 am    Post subject: Various flashbacks
By SeanCurtin

The various members of the Octessence (Balthakk, Cyttorak, Farallah, Ikonn, Krakkak, Raggadorr, Valtorr, and Watoomb) appear in IM3 22-FB. This is the first chronological appearance for all, including Cyttorak. XU 12-FB should occur after this, as the flashback in IM3 22 just features the Octessence gathering while the flashback in XU 12 features the origin of the Cyttorak ruby itself. 

Baron Helmut Zemo and William Malcolm Taurey are both seen in a one-panel flashback in TB 54. Zemo makes a remark suggesting that he was a "youth" when this occurred but is seen wearing his Zemo outfit. Based on that, this should be placed between CA 200 and TB 31-FB for Taurey and between CA 168 and 275 for Zemo. (Incidentally, the Barons Zemo are listed under ZEMO but Baroness Zemo is listed under BARONESS ZEMO; one or the other should be changed.) 

Gambit and Joanna Cargill appear in a one-panel flashback in GAM3 20. It could either be placed before all of Cargill's prior appearances (in which case it would occur best between W/G 3-FB and UX 350-FB for Gambit) or between XF 33 and NM@ 7 in Cargill's chronology (in which case it would have to occur between UX 350-FB and UX 266 in Gambit's chronology). The latter is a neater timeframe, and fills up some "dead time" between both characters' confirmed chronological markers. Aside: The MCP spells Cargill with one L, but most stories seem to use two Ls in her name (as do other Scott Lobdell stories featuring other women named Cargill). 

The extended flashback from X 33 is in the wrong place in from Gambit and Sabretooth's chronologies. It's currently listed just before UX 310, which makes no sense; it occurs much earlier than that. I figure that it should be placed between GAM3 23-FB and X 8-FB in Gambit's chronology (he's still a fledgling member of the Thieves' Guild), but am not sure exactly where it should go in Sabretooth's chronology; my best guess is between L:SS and W2 126-FB-BTS. Sabretooth is in costume throughout all of X 33-FB. Henri LeBeau and Genevieve Darceneaux both appear prominently in the flashback, and should receive entries; Henri later appears (and dies) in GAM 1. 

-Sean

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Posted: 16 Aug 2004 05:28 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Mystique and an infant Graydon Creed both appear in flashback at the end of X 33, before XMF 2-FB and, in Mystique's case, after the unlisted flashback in Sabretooth #3, which occurs after the first chronological occurance of XMF 4. Although Sabretooth remembers her here as having been Leni Zauber, she wasn't actually using that identity at this point in time. 

-Sean

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Posted: 16 Aug 2004 01:13 pm    Post subject: Magneto - back story
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The last one for now. Again, I have some minor changes to the current listing. 

The Master List lists two flashbacks that I can't track down. One is supposedly in X-MEN vol 2 #86, but I can't find anything there that matches. There's a panel of Astra standing with the Brotherhood, but Magneto isn't in it. There's also a number of origin flashbacks for Joseph. But nothing of Magneto, unless I'm missing something. 

The other is in, of all places, CITIZEN V & THE V BATTALION #2. I got rid of that series when I moved house last year, but my notes do mention a flashback insinuating that the V Battalion had something to do with the creation of Cerebro. However, I don't have any notes of Magneto being in the issue. 

Anyway - here's my listing: 

Note: In X-MEN UNLIMITED vol 1 #2, Gabrielle Haller gives a version of Magnetos life which is open to doubt, since it accepts Magnetos cover identity of Erik Magnus Lehnsherr (since thoroughly discredited). Nonetheless, much of what Haller says is verified by other accounts. According to Haller, Magneto was born near Danzig (now Gdansk, Poland) in 1928. This is broadly consistent with his age as shown in other wartime flashbacks. Haller claims that Magnetos families were gypsies of Sinte descent; since he was imprisoned in Auschwitz, they were almost certainly one of the various groups targeted by the Nazis. The fact that Magneto later headed to Israel might point towards him being Jewish. 

NEW MUTANTS vol 1 #49, page 17 to page 18 panel 1 (flashback) 
World War II. Spring. German soldiers line up a group of people in a field next to a mass grave. Among them are the boy who will become Magneto, and his father, mother and sister. When the soldiers open fire, Magnetos powers emerge for the first time, and he uses them to deflect the bullets. He wakes up in a partially buried grave, but digs his way out, much to the surprise of the German soldiers. (If Magneto was indeed born in 1928 then this could viably take place in 1939, at the outset of World War II, when he would have been 11. Thats consistent with the art.) 

According to Magneto, the German soldiers then decided not to kill him, but instead sent him to Auschwitz: New Mutants #49. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #344 (flashback) 
Generic scenes of Magneto, as a young boy, in a Nazi concentration camp. This is a flashback recalled by Joseph, subsequently revealed as a Magneto clone, and therefore it may be inaccurate; however, the substance matches other accounts of Magnetos life. 

X-MEN UNLIMITED vol 1 #2, page 11 panel 4 to page 12 panels 1-2 (flashback) 
Film or still photos shown by Gabrielle Haller, showing a noticeably older Magneto in the concentration camps. Again, this would be workable on the basis of him being born in 1928, in which case he would have emerged from the camps at age 17. 

CLASSIC X-MEN #12, second story (flashback) 
1945. The guards at Auschwitz are slaughtering inmates in order to eliminate witnesses. The adolescent Magneto stops a guard from killing Magda. They escape the camp together and flee into the snow. They make their way through the Carpathian Mountains. In the mountains, Magneto finds work and marries Magda. They have a daughter, Anya. About 2 years later, the family move to Vinnitsa in the Ukraine. When threatened by a foreman on his building site, Magneto rediscovers his powers (unused since before he went into the camp). He returns home to tell Magda, only to find the home on fire. Magneto rescues Magda, but the local authorities try to arrest him for fighting the foreman, and prevent him from saving Anya, who dies. Magneto slaughters the police, foreman and onlookers. Magda is horrified and runs away, never to return. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #304, pages 12 to 15 (flashback) 
Magneto has carried Anyas corpse some 60 km west, tailed by Soviet soldiers. Presumably Magnus is planning to dispose of the body. Magnus uses his powers to slaughter the soldiers. Then he picks up Anyas body and heads on his way. 

X-MEN UNLIMITED vol 1 #2, page 12 panel 3 (flashback) 
A shot of Magnus, in a trenchcoat, standing on a hill and looking at a group of people. The accompanying dialogue concerns Magda leaving  the relevance is unclear, but presumably this takes place at around that point. Possibly this is supposed to be Magnus watching Anyas funeral from a distance. 

X-MEN UNLIMITED vol 1 #2, page 12 panel 4 (flashback) 
Magnus, now using that name, works at Daniel Shomrons hospital in Haifa, Israel. Generic shot of him helping an old woman. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #161, page 5 panel 2 to page 9 (flashback) 
"Twenty years ago." Charles Xavier arrives in Haifa and meets Magnus for the first time. On his first day there, Charles uses his telepathic powers to wake Gabrielle Haller from her catatonic state. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #161, page 10 panels 1-3 (flashback) 
Montage sequence. "Over the weeks that follow", Xavier and Magnus tend to Gabrielle's recovery. Xavier and Magnus become friends, and discuss their views on human/mutant relations. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #309, page 9 panel 2 (flashback) 
Magnus watches while Xavier assists Gabrielle Haller with some sort of exercise. 

X-MEN vol 2 #40 
LegionQuest. Charles has been at the hospital for several weeks. The time-travelling Legion has arrived in the hospital as an amnesiac patient, and Magnus treats him. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #321 
LegionQuest. Magnus and Xavier get into a bar fight together. Later, they are attacked by Legion. 

X-MEN vol 2 #41 
Legion battles the time-travelling X-Men, and accidentally kills Xavier while aiming for Magnus. This creates the divergent timeline which becomes the Age of Apocalypse. 

X-MEN OMEGA 
Legion is defeated and the true timeline is restored. The end of X-MEN vol 2 #41 (and possibly all Legion's appearances in the above issues) are deleted from history. Magnus is left with no memory of what has happened. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #161, p10pn4 to p20pn5 (flashback) 
Xavier kisses Gabrielle, despite his fears that he may be exploiting her. Baron Strucker and HYDRA attack the hospital, hoping to learn the location of hidden Nazi gold from Gabrielle. Xavier and Magnus join forces to defeat them. Magnus absconds with the gold, ending his association with Xavier. 

CLASSIC X-MEN #19, second story 
Magneto is working as a Nazi-hunter, under the guidance of western intelligence agencies. He has been given the codename Magneto, though he doesnt yet have a costume. Magneto goes to South America in search of war criminal Hans Richter. He trails Richter to Rio de Janeiro, only to be stopped by his own superior, Control, who says that Richter is a valued double-agent. Control tries to kill Magneto for disobeying orders, only for Magneto to kill him instead. Magneto decides that he can trust no one, and that it is his destiny to rule the world and lead mutantkind to glory. 

GENERATION X #10, flashback 
A trenchcoated Magneto visits Interpol agent Sean Cassidy and gives him information that will help him track down Omega Red. Magnetos last pre-costume appearance. Sean does not know who Magneto is, but knows that he has been helping for weeks now. (The MCP places this right before Magneto debuts, but it seems to me to fit much more naturally back before Magneto got into costume and started recruiting the Brotherhood - though after Magneto loses faith in the western governments, since Interpol were protecting Omega Red in this story.) 

X-MEN FOREVER #3 
Magneto saves the Toad from a mob, and invites him to join the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. 

X-MEN FOREVER #4 
Magneto takes the Toad back to a headquarters. Astra is the only other villain seen, and she is occupied gathering extraterrestrial technology for Magneto. She also makes clear that Pietro and Wanda have not yet joined the team, though theyre under observation. Astra is only interested in money, and walks out on the team (though she evidently returned, because other flashbacks show her alongside Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch). 

AVENGERS vol 1 #47, flashback 
Magneto went to the Transian village where Wanda and Pietro lived, and saw them being hounded by locals who believe Wanda to have the evil eye. When Pietro is overcome by the mob, Magneto magnetically disarms them 

X-MEN vol 1 #4, flashback 
and as he holds back the crowd, Wanda says that she owes him her life. 

AVENGERS vol 1 #47 flashback 
The villagers flee, and Magneto holds Wanda and Pietro to the idea that they owe him their lives. He conscripts them into the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. 

X-MEN vol 2 #-1 
Magneto, Wanda and Pietro (not yet in costume) meet Professor X and Amelia Voght in an abandoned concentration camp, and have an inconclusive conversation. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #300 (flashback, behind the scenes) 
Word reaches Xavier and Moira MacTaggert that Magneto is planning an attack on Cape Citadel. 

X-MEN vol 1 #1 
Magneto attacks Cape Citadel and is defeated by the X-Men. His first published appearance. 

That brings out the following list (with changes marked):- 

NM 49-FB 
UX 344-FB 
XU 2-FB 
CX 12/2-FB 
UX 304-FB 
XU 2-FB 
UX 161-FB 
UX 309-FB 
*X 40 
*UX 321 
*X 41 
*X-MEN OMEGA 
UX 161-FB 
CX 19/2 
*GENX 10-FB [moved from below] 
XMF 3 
XMF 4 
A 47-FB 
UX 4-FB 
A 47-FB 
X -1 
[moved earlier: UX 321-FB. Part of LegionQuest.] 
[moved earlier: GENX 10-FB. Pre-costume.] 
UX 300-FB-BTS 
UX 1
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 Aug 2004 01:56 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The other is in, of all places, CITIZEN V & THE V BATTALION #2. I got rid of that series when I moved house last year, but my notes do mention a flashback insinuating that the V Battalion had something to do with the creation of Cerebro. However, I don't have any notes of Magneto being in the issue. 
<<<


No Magneto in that flashback, only Mighty Destroyer, Iron Cross, Golden Sun (daughter of Golden Girl from Invaders and mother of Goldfire) and Twister (son of Human Top from Invaders and father of Topspin). The notes at the end of the comic imply that Xavier and Magneto are present, but they are unseen. 
The group is watching Cerebro. 
Caption "Secretly helped prevent the genocide of the entire mutant race." 
Destroyer: "He calls it Cerebro..."
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: 16 Aug 2004 02:18 pm    
By John Simons

Paul O'Brien wrote: 

The other is in, of all places, CITIZEN V & THE V BATTALION #2. I got rid of that series when I moved house last year, but my notes do mention a flashback insinuating that the V Battalion had something to do with the creation of Cerebro. However, I don't have any notes of Magneto being in the issue. 
 


I don't see any sign of Magneto in that issue, either. 

As for the Cerebro scene, there's nothing really in it (a single panel), that suggests they had anything to do with creating it. 

On page 14 there's a sort of montage of FB's to old V-Battalion missions we haven't seen yet. In the third such FB four members of V-B are in the mansion, standing before Cerebro. The narration by Elizabeth Barstow says the team "secretly helped prevent the genocide of the entire mutant race." In the FB, Destroyer is saying "He calls it Cerebro" (As opposed to, "I call it Cerebro") What I infer from that is on some mutant-hatred-related mission, the team somehow gained access to the X-Mansion and somehow utilized Cerebro to diffuse the situation. 

Truth be known, there just isn't enough info given to draw any solid conclusion. 

Looking at the text page in the back of the book, I see where the Magneto suggestion might come from. Perhaps hoping to tease readers into demanding more V-Battalion comics, Fabian Nicieza gives a little bit more information about the potential stories behind these panels. Here's what it says for the FB we're talking about: 
"Call them MUTANTS, Call Them DEATH!" featuring Twister, Iron Cross, Golden Sun, Destroyer, Charles Xavier and Magneto. 

So apparently Magneto has something to do with why the V-Battalion are standing in front of Cerebro, but he doesn't actually appear in the flashback. Perhaps this might merit a BTS, but without more information even that might be a stretch... 

Edit: Obviously, I wrote this while Peter was already posting the above. Oh well.

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Posted: 16 Aug 2004 02:33 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

That explains that. Sounds to me like it's an allusion to an untold tale Magneto was involved in, but that the comic doesn't say Magneto was actually present at that particular scene.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 Aug 2004 04:37 pm    
By SeanCurtin

The MCP doesn't have profiles for Magda or Anya yet. 

ANYA "LEHNSHERR" (assuming that Magneto created that identity after she died and not before she was born) 
CX 12/2-FB 
UX 304-FB 

MAGDA "LEHNSHERR" ("MAGDA THE GYPSY") 
CX 12/2-FB 
UX@ 12/3 (Evolutionary War backup, may retell parts of the next two flashbacks) 
{A 186-FB} 
A 234-FB 
(she may also appear in WOSM@ 3/3) 
V&SW2 5 (as a ghost) 

-Sean

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Posted: 16 Aug 2004 06:53 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Magneto and Magda also appear, fleeing from Auschwitz, in a flashback in X-Factor Annual #4, story #2, p.7. It fits between pages of Classic X-Men #12/2, and from what I can see, constitutes new material. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 17 Aug 2004 04:12 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Thanks - I'll add that to the list. You wouldn't know the page numbers, would you?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 17 Aug 2004 08:20 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

All I have in my notes, like I posted above, is "story #2, p.7" ... did you mean the page numbers overall, counting the first story as (for example) pp.1-20, and the second story as pp.21-28? 

I'm at work right now, but I can check the flashback when I get home. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 17 Aug 2004 08:31 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

No, no - I meant the page numbers for the CLASSIC X-MEN story, to see where it fits in there.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 17 Aug 2004 09:11 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Oh, I see -- sorry. I'll look into it when I get home tonight. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 18 Aug 2004 08:47 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Okay -- the X-Factor FB in question is the second story, p.7 panel 3 through p.9 panel 3. Only p.7 panels 3-4 recount new material (an emaciated Magnus and Magda flee through the woods) -- the rest of the FB recaps portions of Classic X-Men #12/2-FB, showing the birth and death of Anya. 

Given that the duo look considerably more haggard and emaciated in XF@ 4/2-FB than in the "escaping Auschwitz" portion of CX #12/2-FB, I'd say they've been wandering the woods for some time at that point -- so I'm placing the X-Factor FB between pp.3-4 of CX #12/2, during the period described in the CX story as "For a time, they were little better than animals. Yet somehow -- sick and hungry as they were -- they survived." 

The rest of the FB recaps Anya's birth and death, as I said -- and while in some panels, it stays very true to the original (including the same colored clothing!), in some panels it deviates. In particular, the scene where Magda runs from Magneto, frightened by his powers, contains substantially different dialogue. I don't *think* any of it is different enough to consitute new material -- but I'll take a closer look at it on my lunch break.  

Hope that helps for now... 

-Jeph!

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Thread 17

Posted: 15 Aug 2004 06:22 am    Post subject: Iceman - back story
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

This one's nice and simple. One query about a flashback I know nothing about, and a slight re-ordering of Bobby's first two appearances proposed. Other than that, it's as per the existing MCP listing (with the addition of two UNCANNY ORIGINS scenes). 

UNCANNY X-MEN #319, flashback 
Young Bobby Drake goes for a walk on the beach with his father William, after dinner. William is unimpressed with Bobbys sandcastles, and unsupportive of his dreams. [This flashback is presently placed after XMF 5-FB. However, while no age is given, Bobby looks to me younger than 10, and younger than he appeared in XMF 5-FB. Hes wearing shorts. Besides, UX 319-FB and XMF 5-FB in this order keeps them in publication sequence, which appeals to me as a tie-breaker.] 

X-MEN FOREVER #5, page 1 panel 1, flashback 
Age 10, Bobby Drake breaks his arm. No context. 

X-MEN FOREVER #3 
The time-travelling Iceman briefly occupies the body of his own past self, just as his mutant powers are beginning to emerge. Teenage Bobby Drake is wrapped in a blanket, shivering, and always seems to have a cold. His mother is heard off-panel. 

X-MEN FOREVER #4 
Still occupying the body of his own past self, Bobby Drake meets up with Jean Grey (who is time-travelling in the same way). They dont achieve anything of significance before moving on with their travels. This is the first time that Bobby and Jean meet  though they evidently dont remember it until this series. 

ICEMAN (first series) #4, flashback 
No clue, but the MCP places it here... 

And from here on, it's completely uncontroversial:- 

X-MEN (first series) #44, second story 
Bobby Drake and his girlfriend Judy Beasley are walking home from a date when they are attacked by bullies. Bobby uses his powers publicly in self-defence, and word of his mutant powers quickly spreads through the town. The local Sheriff puts Bobby in protective custody as a lynch mob gathers. Cyclops arrives and breaks him out. 

X-MEN (first series) #45, second story 
Cyclops and Bobby fight one another, and attract attention. 

X-MEN (first series) #46, second story 
Professor X saves Cyclops and Bobby from the mob. Bobby joins the X-Men as Iceman. 

X-MEN (first series) #55, second story, page 1-4 
The X-Men detect the Angel 

UNCANNY ORIGINS #3, page 12 
Professor X sends Cyclops and Iceman to get him 

X-MEN (first series) #55, second story, page 5 
and Cyclops and Iceman confront the Angel in his apartment. 

X-MEN (first series) #56, second story 
The X-Men subdue the Angel and he joins the team. 

X-MEN (first series) #51, second story 
The X-Men learn that Hank McCoy has been kidnapped 

X-MEN (first series) #52, second story 
track him down 

X-MEN (first series) #53, second story, page 1 to page 5 panel 3 
and rescue him and his parents. 

UNCANNY ORIGINS #6, page 16 panels 2-3 
Everyone goes back to Hanks house, where Xavier delivers some exposition to tie up some loose ends from the plot 

X-MEN (first series) #53, second story, page 5 panels 4-5 
and the Beast joins the X-Men. 

MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS #85, third story (flashback) 
Cyclops, Angel and Iceman subdue an enraged Beast. 

X-MEN (first series) #1 
The X-Men make their public debut against Magneto. Icemans first published appearance. 

That gives a listing of:- 

*UX 319-FB 
*XMF 5-FB 
XMF 3 
XMF 4 
ICE 4-FB 
UX 44/2 
UX 45/2 
UX 46/2 
UX 55/2 
*UO 3 
*UX 55/2 
UX 56/2 
UX 51/2 
UX 52/2 
UX 53/2 
*UO 6 
*UX 53/2 
MCP 85/3-FB 
UX 1 

By the way, there's no link to Iceman's entry at the top of the I page. Surely he's popular enough to deserve one...!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 19 Aug 2004 03:43 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Update: Several X-Axis readers have now been in touch to say that ICEMAN 4-FB does not exist, and that they can't work out what the entry refers to. Apparently the miniseries was basically a rip-off of the plot of BACK TO THE FUTURE, only with cosmic entities thrown in. There's a degree of time travel to alternate realities, and there's some dialogue about Bobby arguing with his father in the past, but no actual flashback.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Aug 2004 07:46 am    Post subject: Speaking of Iceman mini........
By Enda80

Oblivion's appearance in that series is not listed in this chronology.

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Thread 18

Posted: 20 Aug 2004 04:21 am    Post subject: Jemiah the Analyzer in Thor I#260
By Enda80

Eternals#7 came out in January 1977. Thor I#260 came out in June 1977. 
On page 16-17 of Thor I#260, in the lower rightand corner, can be seen Jemiah the Analyzer. The eyes, nose, mouth and headpiece look the same. 

JEMIAH 
E 7 
**T 260 
T 284 
T 300 
SS3 4 
SS3 5 
FF@ 23

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Posted: 18 Aug 2004 07:05 pm    Post subject: Hercules canon Q     
By rhod

Hercules:Prince of Power is not listed in the key or in the list of books that aren't canon. Any reason ? 

Also, why isn't invaders vol2 listed in Captain America's chronology?

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Aug 2004 08:05 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Hercules should be in the non-canon list. 


watching: dog eat dog

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Aug 2004 10:29 pm    
By JLH

What about "The Punisher: Kingdom Gone", a Hardcover from 1990? I don't see it anywhere on the site.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Aug 2004 05:08 am    
By rhod

To follow then, why is Hercules:prince of power non-canon?

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Aug 2004 06:00 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

It's set in an alternate future.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Aug 2004 09:45 am    
By SeanCurtin

There was also a second Hercules: Prince of Power miniseries and the Hercules: Full Circle graphic novel, all set in the same future timeline.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Aug 2004 03:34 pm    
By rhod

OK, (out of curiosity, I'm not trying to hassle anyone), where is the divergent point? 
Cheers for all the help.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Aug 2004 06:44 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

There's not a divergent point. It's simply a story that's not canon. 


watching: Degrassi

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Aug 2004 01:25 pm    
By SeanCurtin

There wasn't a point of divergence - it was (is?) a possible future timeline, set several centuries in the future, rather than a divergent timeline. 

Also, there was a follow-up in Marvel Comics Presents. 

-Sean

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Thread 20

Posted: 01 Aug 2004 08:25 pm    Post subject: Vapor in Wolverine
By garbonzo

Hi there, 

In the current issues of Wolverine, The Native is captured by someone who is referred to alternately as "Doctor" and as Vapor. Is this the same character who is currently listed in the MCP as Vapor? I am unfamiliar with the character as she appears in the Wolverine book. 

garbonzo

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2004 12:30 am    
By SeanCurtin

Maybe. Vapor and the other three members of the U-Foes were allegedly killed by the Master of the World in Heroes for Hire, but they were killed by a teleportaton device and never confirmed as dead - and even if her teammates didn't survive, someone with Vapor's powers could probably survive a little molecular jumbling. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2004 03:40 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Aren't the rest of the U-Foes running around in the current SHE-HULK storyline, among the horde of minor supervillains in the prison?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2004 08:41 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Yes, Vector, Ironclad, and X-Ray are in the current She-Hulk story arc, starting with issue #5. Vapor is not present, at least not yet.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Aug 2004 03:21 pm    
By Ant-Man

Vapor showed up in She-Hulk #6

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Aug 2004 08:15 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Indeed she did. Now we'll have to determine: (1) is Wolverine's Vapor the same person; and (2) if so, which appearance comes first. An analysis of the current Wolverine storyline may give us clues. If the story arc isn't over, let's see how things play out.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Posted: 20 Aug 2004 10:11 pm    Post subject: Placement of Cable & Deadpool
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Having just read Cable & Deadpool #6, I'm finding it necessary to adjust the placement of the first story arc of this series. 

Issue #1 through page 16 of issue #6 occur over the course of a couple of weeks. This whole span of time must occur before "Magneto's" destruction of the Xavier Institute and Manhattan because: 

1) In issue #3, a standing Xavier shows up at Nathan's Swiss headquarters, placing the scene before Xavier's crippling by "Magneto." 

2) In the first 16 pages of issue #6, we see small glimpses of a normal-looking Manhattan (e.g. just outside the Daily Bugle). BTW, the day on which these pages occur must allow about a hour or so for the whole population of earth to have pink skin, so it can't conflict with any other story set on earth. 

This being the case, we'd have to find a suitable spot for Xavier to appear in issue #3, long enough before Manhattan's destruction for everything from that point through page 16 of issue #6 to occur. 

I think I've found a good spot -- the day after the prize-giving ceremony in X 138 (and Scott's taking off in X 139). That would be Sunday, May 25 according to the current calendar. This is also the day before the start of the summer session shown in NM2 2. It's quite conceivable that Xavier used the one-day break between spring and summer semesters to jet to Switzerland to discuss important matters with Nathan. And fortunately, this placement would not conflict with other Xavier appearances. 

Pages 17-21 of C&DP 6 occur "weeks" after pages 1-16. It must be quite a few weeks after because Cyclops, Beast, and Emma show up here in the new costumes that Scott unveiled in ASTONX3 1, and that first story arc in ASTONX3 occurs at the beginning of a new school year at Xavier's (the fall semester after the rebuilding of the Institute). 

To conclude, I've placed C&DP 1 through C&DP 6 (1-16) from May 19 through June 1. (The destruction of Manhattan is still on June 25.) My tentative placement of C&DP 6 (17-21) is on August 30. 

Does this make sense to the X-perts among us?
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 22

Posted: 20 Aug 2004 10:24 pm    Post subject: Sabretooth and Scalphunter
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

This week's issue of Weapon X (#27) includes a flashback to "1968" (topical date) Vietnam which shows the first meeting of Sabretooth and Scalphunter. Creed is in Vietnam because he's been hired by a woman to investigate mysterious disappearances of soldiers, prostitutes, and locals. Scalphunter, employed by Mr. Sinister, whose experiments are the cause of the disappearances, pays Creed to abandon his investigation. 

WX2 27-FB is Scalphunter's earliest chronological appearance. I wonder where this might fall in Sabretooth's early history.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Aug 2004 01:18 am
By Enda80

Scalphunter also appears with the Howling Commandos in an earlier issue of Weapon X, if I recall correctly.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Aug 2004 10:14 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Yeah -- Scalp's earliest chronological appearance is in WX2 #14, where, as John Greycrow, he is shot by a firing squad for scalping prisoners ... during the closing days of WWII, I think? 

-Jeph!

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Thread 23

After the catastrophic carnage wrought by Avengers Disassembled, a new team will rise. The team's composition should make continuity tighter between three of Marvel's major lines of comics, but if creative teams are not in synch, this could lead to some real challenges for us chronologists. 


S 

P 

O 

I 

L 

E 

R 


The line-up as of New Avengers #1 is: 

Captain America 
Iron Man 
Spider-Man 
Spider-Woman I 
Wolverine 
Luke Cage 
Sentry 

This line-up reflects Bendis' personal faves and has been hailed and criticized as Marvel JLA. 

We'll see how Secret War and Pulse tie in here, not to mention Spidey's titles and the relaunches (yet again, sigh) of Cap and Iron Man. 

Well, at least we won't have to worry about how Thor will fit into continuity any more. He, his title, and all the Asgardians will be toast, apparently.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 11:47 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Only until the next relaunch. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Aug 2004 11:13 am    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Yeah, focusing on continuity between all the Bendis titles just became paramount in importance...the next few months should be...interesting. 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Aug 2004 11:26 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

And we all know how loose Bendis is with his temporal references. Paul B. is gonna have a stroke. 

FWIW, the solicits for the second arc of The Pulse -- starting with #6 -- imply that it takes place either after "Secret War" #1, or after the series wraps up. 

And speaking of "Secret War", how does Iron Man's behavior towards the Latverian ambassador in Avengers #500 relate to the revelation in "Secret War" #1-2 that Latveria was funding most of the USA's techno-villains? I've only skimmed "Secret War", but is there a clear indication that one book occurs after the other? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Aug 2004 12:40 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
I've only skimmed "Secret War", but is there a clear indication that one book occurs after the other?  


I'm really hoping that SECWAR occurs before Avengers Disassembled, given Jessica Jones' pregnancy. This week's FF 517 occurs on Halloween, just after the Avengers catastrophe. According to my calculations, this is eight months after Jessica becomes pregnant. In SECWAR 1-2, Jessica is not showing and there is no reference to her having had a child. 

Curiously, in SECWAR 2, there is a reference to the U.S. Secretary of Defense, but that person is unnamed. This person could be Dell Rusk or Tony Stark, and I'm hoping the this story occurs during Rusk's tenure, before Red Zone (A3 65-70), which I've placed in early July. Perhaps June (before "Magneto's" destruction of Manhattan), given the warm weather we see in SECWAR. 

However, in SECWAR 1, there's a reference to a sports column that reports that the Indiana Pacers are 7 and 1 overall and have won six straight since losing at New Jersey on Nov. 1; that would place this segment in mid-November, when Jessica would be nearly due. 

So... 

Quote: 
And we all know how loose Bendis is with his temporal references. Paul B. is gonna have a stroke.  


Yeah. 

Unless Jessica had a miscarriage or the baby shows up in SECWAR, reconciling all these conflicting references may get messy. We'll see how SECWAR plays out.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 24

Posted: 22 Aug 2004 03:20 pm    Post subject: Krang note; Oracle attack
By Enda80

Saga of the Sub-Mariner#1 establishes that Krang led the Atlantean soldiers who attacked the crew of the Oracle, so we can add that to his chronology. 

You have got to love the Saga of the Sub-Mariner series if only in that Roy Thomas kept retroactively naming unnamed Atlanteans from previous Namor stories as familiar characters introduced later such as Merrano (U-Man), Krang, and Seth. 

KRANG [ATLANTEAN] 
SAGASM 1-FB 
M/:LG 3 
{FF@ 1} 
DD 7 
TTA 70 
TTA 71 
................ 

For those who are wondering, Merrano was revealed as one of Namor's playmates from those 1950's published young Namor stories, Krang as the leader of the attack on the Oracle, and Seth as one of the soldiers who fought with Namor against the Avengers in Avengers I#4.

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Posted: 11 Aug 2004 02:44 pm    Post subject: Professor X - Back Story
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Working through the X-Men Index for my own site, I've spotted what seem to me to be some glitches in Xavier's pre-X-MEN #1 chronology. Rather than point out individual entries, it's probably easiest to start by running down all the appearances of Xavier that I have noted, and the sequence I've put them in. In most cases, the logic for the sequence is pretty evident from the synopsis:- 

NEW X-MEN #121  Charles Xavier and Cassandra Nova battle in utero 

X-MEN vol 2 #12, p19pn3  As children, Charles Xavier and Carter Ryking play together in the shadow of Almagordo. 

X-MEN vol 2 #13, p20pn2  Charles and Carter play in the woods with a football, presumably near Almagordo. (Not the same scene as the previous flashback  the clothes have changed, and they didnt have a football in the previous panel.) 

GAMBIT vol 3 #4, p8pn1-3  Inside the Almagordo complex, Charles Xavier and Carter Ryking run away in fear after Carter sees the Black Womb. 

X-MEN vol 1 #12, p4pn3  Brian Xavier is killed at Almagordo. No actual appearance by Charles  this panel simply shows a mushroom cloud. 

X-MEN vol 2 #12, p17pn1  Sharon Xavier dresses Charles in preparation for Brians funeral. 

X-MEN vol 2 #12, p17pn3  Charles looks at his fathers gravestone; adds nothing of significance to the existing funeral flashback from X-Men vol 1 #12 and placed here simply to avoid breaking up the flashbacks in X-Men vol 2 #12. 

X-MEN FOREVER #4, page 11 panel 2 - Another shot of the funeral, this time establishing that Cain Marko was present with his father. 

X-MEN vol 1 #12, p4pn4-6  Brian Xaviers funeral. Charles watches in annoyance as Kurt Marko moves in on Sharon. 

X-MEN vol 1 #12, p4pn7-p5pn1  Months after Brians funeral, Kurt Marko moves into the Xavier Mansion. Xaviers powers have emerged by this point, and he realises that Kurt only cares about money and power. 

X-MEN vol 1 #12, p5pn2-3  Time passes. Kurt has begun to neglect Sharon in favour of his work. Sharon tries to shelter Charles from Kurt. Charles still has hair at this point. Cain is due to move in tomorrow. 

X-MEN vol 1 #12, p5pn4-6  Having been expelled from his boarding school, Cain Marko moves into the Xavier Mansion. He meets Charles for the first time (implying that at least one of them didnt even go to the wedding), and immediately hits him. 

X-MEN FOREVER #4, p11pn3 - Another incident of Cain bullying Xavier. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #309, p7pn5, p8pn2-3  A series of panels depicting an incident in which Charles, age 10, sees Kurt Marko beating Sharon, and comforts her afterwards. This flashback also asserts that Sharon turned to drink around this time, although nothing of that sort is shown. 

Sharon Xavier dies, heartbroken. Never actually depicted on panel, but referenced in the next flashback. 

X-MEN vol 1 #12, page 7 panel 5 to page 8 panel 4 (flashback) - Charles overhears Cain trying to blackmail Kurt. Cain alleges that Kurt murdered Brian Xavier. Charles intervenes and confronts Kurt and Cain. In the following altercation, Cain knocks over one of Kurt's experiments. There is an explosion, and the Mansion is set alight. 

X-MEN UNLIMITED vol 1 #12, page 24 panels 1-3 (flashback) - Kurt Marko picks up Charles and Cain... 

X-MEN vol 1 #12, page 8 panels 5-6 (flashback) - ...and carries them to safety. Kurt warns Charles about Cain, and reveals that he knows about Charles' powers. Then he dies (from injuries caused by the fire). 

X-MEN UNLIMITED vol 1 #12, p24pn4 to p25pn2 (flashback) - Direct continuation from the previous scene, as Cain reacts to Kurt's death. 

X-MEN vol 1 #12, p10pn3-5  A montage sequence of the teenage Xavier excelling at school, both academically and at sport. Xavier loses his hair during this period, which seems to run up to his final year at school (since he becomes the star quarterback). 

X-MEN vol 1 #12, p10pn6-p11  Xavier brings another sports trophy back home. Cain flies into a rage and starts to destroy Xaviers trophies. Realising that Cain will attack him next, Xavier subdues him with a martial arts chop. 

X-MEN vol 1 #12, p12pn2-5  After vacation, Cain Marko offers to drive Xavier to college. Xavier accepts, but Cain deliberately drives recklessly in order to try and scare him. The car crashes. Xavier telepathically makes Cain leap to safety. He survives the crash by creating a mental shield around me. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #389, p5  Charles has won a scholarship to Oxford University. While attending a tutorial by a renowned scientist, he meets Moira Kinross. Her boyfriend, Joe MacTaggert is immediately jealous. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #389, p6-p8pn5  Charles, Moira and Joe spend a weekend away, and visit a country pub in Devon. Moira and Joe leave early, riding together on Joes motorbike. He crashes. Xavier sense what has happened and goes after them. Xavier and Moira make telepathic contact, and fall in love, beginning their relationship. 

EXCALIBUR vol 1 #79  Xavier and Moira on holiday together in Europe. They are clearly lovers at this point. Placed here to avoid needlessly breaking up issue #117, page 6. (Xavier is discussing his dream already, which is a bit early  hes not supposed to get that idea clearly in his mind until after he meets Amahl Farouk. But its clearly meant to be during Xavier and Moiras time as lovers, which takes precedence.) 

X-MEN vol 1 #117, p6pn2-3  Page 6 is a montage sequence. These panels show Xavier and Moira together as lovers. According to Xaviers narration, they were considering marriage. 

X-MEN vol 1 #117, p6pn4  A shot of Xaviers call-up letter. Its addressed to Xavier in New York, and later in the page Xavier talks about Moira returning to Scotland. The implication is that at some point before this, Moira moved to New York with Charles. 

X-MEN vol 1 #12, p15pn2-p16pn2  The Korean War (later retconned to Vietnam?). Charles Xavier and Cain Marko serve in the same unit. Cain deserts under fire. Charles gives chase. They find the lost temple of Cyttorak. Cain touches the gem of Cyttorak and becomes the Juggernaut. Enemy fire brings down the temple. Xavier escapes, but the Juggernaut is trapped under the mountain. 

X-MEN vol 1 #117, p6pn5  A generic shot of Xavier in battle. 

X-MEN vol 1 #117, p6pn6  Xavier receives Moiras Dear John letter. According to Xavier, at this point he was in the hospital, recovering from battlefield wounds. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #389, p10pn7-p13pn2  Still in the army, Xavier goes on a helicopter search and rescue mission. He is brooding over the Dear John letter from Moira, which arrived when he had barely a month to go. However, he renews his focus in order to help the American soldiers who need him. 

After leaving the US army, according to issue #117, Xavier went a little crazy then. I became a nomad, bumming around the Mediterranean. Most of this period remains undocumented. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #309, p9pn7, p10pn2-3  In a bar somewhere, Charles Xavier re-reads Moiras Dear John letter, and then sets light to it. 

X-MEN vol 1 #117, p6pn7  Xavier walks up a hill carrying a backpack, and meets a painter. The significance of this scene remains unexplained. In accompanying narration, Xavier says that he came to Kirinos, Greece, where the people there needed my help in return they gave me the care and love I needed to burn the psychic poison out of my system. The details are unexplained. 

X-MEN vol 1 #117, pp7-15  Xavier goes to Cairo, where he crosses paths with the young Ororo Munroe, and battles Amahl Farouk. This is the first time he meets an evil mutant. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #161, p5pn2-p9  Twenty years ago. Xavier arrives in Haifa, Israel, after being invited by psychologist Daniel Shomron, an old army colleague. At Shomrons hospital, Xavier meets Magnus for the first time. On his first day in Haifa, Xavier uses his telepathy to wake Gabrielle Haller from her catatonic state. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #161, p10pn1-3  Over the weeks that follow, Xavier and Magnus tend to Gabrielle. Xavier and Magnus become friends, and discuss their views on human/mutant relations. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #309, p9pn2  Magnus watches as Xavier assists Gabrielle Haller with some sort of exercise. 

X-MEN vol 2 #40 - Magnus and Xavier are still working at the hospital in Israel, and have been together for a few weeks. The time-travelling Legion has arrived as a patient, but neither of them realise who he is. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #321  Magnus and Xavier get into a bar fight together. Afterwards, as they return to the hospital, Xavier asks whether it would be right to have a relationship with Gabrielle. Magnus advises him to go for it. When they arrive back at the hospital, Xavier and Magnus are attacked by Legion. (Most of this story is probably invalidated when Legion is subsequently banished. However, Xavier specifically recalls the bar fight in a flashback in the present day. The discussion about his relationship with Gabrielle indicates that they have not yet begun a relationship at this point.) 

X-MEN vol 2 #41  Xavier is present as the time-travelling Legion fights the X-Men. This entire story is deleted when history is revised upon Legions defeat. 

X-MEN OMEGA  Legion is defeated and time is restored. Xavier retains no memory of the anomaly. However, at least the closing part of this issue is an appearance of the mainstream Professor X. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #161, p10pn4-p20pn5  Xavier kisses Gabrielle, who believes she is in love with him, despite his doubts about the probity of the relationship. [This is not necessarily the first time they kiss.] Baron Strucker and HYDRA attack the hospital, hoping to learn the location of hidden Nazi gold from Gabrielle Haller. Xavier and Magnus defeat them, and Magnus absconds with the gold. Xavier and Gabrielle are left together as a couple. 

Never shown on panel: Xavier fathers Daniel Haller, and then leaves Israel. 

X-MEN/CLANDESTINE #1  Xavier helps Gracie Gamble and Cuckoo against Synraith. (This is consistent with him continuing to head east.) 

X-MEN vol 1 #20, p14-p18pn4  Some years ago, Xavier travels through Tibet to a walled city in the shadow of the Himalayas, investigating tales that he has heard. He swiftly realises that Lucifer is controlling the city through a combination of alien technology and mind-control. Xavier rounds up a group of rebels and starts to make plans to overthrow Lucifer. When it becomes clear that Lucifer has already found out about them, Xavier leads his people in an immediate attack on Lucifers citadel. Lucifers superiors order him to abandon the castle. Lucifer and Xavier come face to face. Lucifer drops a slab of rock on Xavier, crushing his legs. Xavier is paralysed from this point onwards. Lucifer escapes. 

X-TREME X-MEN #44  Shortly after having his legs crushed, Xavier telepathically attracts help from Tessa (the future Sage). They meet for the first time. Tessa gets Xavier to safety. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #309, p11pn 2-6  Xavier has been airlifted to a hospital in India. There, he meets Amelia Voght for the first time. She is working there as a nurse. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #309, p12  Two weeks later. Amelia is helping Xavier with his rehabilitation. She reveals that she is in love with him. They kiss. Xavier does not tell her that he is a mutant. Xavier has a beard. 

UNCANNY X-MEN 2000  Xavier, cleanshaven, is still undergoing rehab with Amelia. Amelia is in her nurses uniform, so theyre at the hospital where she works. Amelias comment that Xavier had better get used to his wheelchair indicates that he has not been in it for long. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #309, pp13-14  Three months after page 12. Xavier and Amelia are sharing an apartment in Bombay. Amelia finds his notes for a prototype Cerebro, and Xavier reveals that he is a mutant. 

Not depicted: Xavier and Amelia leave India and (per X-Men #-1) return together to the Xavier Mansion in New York. Xavier proceeds to become a renowned expert in genetics (per Classic X-Men #19). While "recovering" from losing the use of his legs, Xavier is asked by the Grey family to help out Jean Grey (per pages 4-5 of BIZARRE ADVENTURES #27, in which Xavier himself does not appear). 

X-MEN: THE WEDDING ALBUM, flashbacks 1-2 - Xavier wakes Jean from her catatonic state. She moves into the Mansion with him, and begins to train. 

BIZARRE ADVENTURES #27  Xavier seals off Jeans telepathic powers and begins to tutor her in telekinesis. Jean will proceed to undergo several years of therapy before finally joining the X-Men. 

CLASSIC X-MEN #19, second story  Xavier appears in a photograph showing him attending a genetics conference. This is a Magneto story; Magneto reads about the conference in the newspaper and makes clear that he already knows Xavier, but has lost contact with him. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #273  Xavier shows the first Cerebro machine to Moira MacTaggert and Jean Grey. Jean looks to be in her early teens, and certainly a few years younger than when she joined the X-Men. 

CLASSIC X-MEN #42, second story  A Cyclops story, set while he was still in Sinisters orphanage. At the end of the story, Cyclops briefly makes mental contact with Xavier and Jean. 

X-MEN: THE WEDDING ALBUM, third flashback - Aftermath of the scene from CLASSIC X-MEN #42. At some point after this, Jean moves out of the Mansion and goes back to living with her family. 

X-MEN vol 2 #-1  Xavier and Amelia Voght meet up with Magneto, Pietro and Wanda in a Nazi concentration camp. Magneto is already in costume, but Pietro and Wanda have not yet got costumed identities. Xavier and Magneto have an inconclusive discussion. 

X-MEN vol 1 #38, second story  Xavier begins recruiting the X-Men. He reads a newspaper account of Scott Summers using his optic beam in public. Xavier makes contact with FBI agent Fred Duncan and forms an alliance. 

X-MEN vol 1 #39, second story  Xavier goes on the trail, meeting with Duncan and with Scotts optometrist. 

X-MEN vol 1 #40, second story  Xavier tracks down Scott and Jack ODiamonds using Cyberno, his prototype Cerebro. He confronts Jack. 

X-MEN vol 1 #41, second story  Xavier fights Jack ODiamonds. 

X-MEN vol 1 #42, second story, pp???  Jack ODiamonds is defeated, and Xavier brings Scott to the Mansion. [I dont own a copy of the story, so I dont know the page numbers.] 

UNCANNY X-MEN #309, pp15-17  The night that Scott Summers comes to live at the Xavier Mansion. Amelia Voght immediately walks out on Xavier. He tries to make her stay telepathically, but immediately realises that that would be unacceptable. Amelia realises what has happened, and slaps him before leaving. 

X-MEN vol 1 #42, second story, pp???  Xavier gives Scott his uniform and visor, and names him Cyclops. 

X-MEN vol 1 #44, second story  Xavier reads that Bobby Drake has been imprisoned for his own protection, and sends Cyclops to rescue him. 

X-MEN vol 1 #46, second story  Xavier rescues Scott and Bobby from a lynchmob, and enlists Bobby in the X-Men. 

X-MEN vol 1 #55, second story, page 4  Xavier detects the Angel 

UNCANNY ORIGINS #3, page 12 - Xavier sends Cyclops and Iceman to track him down. 

X-MEN vol 1 #55, second story, page 5 - Xavier monitors as Cyclops and Iceman arrive at Angel's apartment. 

X-MEN vol 1 #56, second story  Xavier gives mental commands as Cyclops and Iceman subdue the Angel and enlist him in the X-Men. 

X-MEN vol 1 #15, p16pn4  Xavier reads about Hank McCoys college football exploits in the Alumni News. 

X-MEN vol 1 #51, second story  Xavier learns that Hank McCoy and his family have been abducted by El Conquistador. 

X-MEN vol 1 #52, second story  Xavier tracks Hank down with Cerebro. 

X-MEN vol 1 #53, second story, pp???  Xavier and the X-Men defeat El Conquistador and rescue the Beast and his family. 

X-MEN vol 1 #15, p16pn5-6  Xavier has dinner with Hank and his family, and asks to have Hank as a pupil. 

UNCANNY ORIGINS #6, page 16 panels 2-3 - Continuation of the dinner scene, with additional exposition. 

X-MEN, vol 1 #53, second story, pp???  Still at the McCoy family home, Xavier and the other X-Men welcome the Beast into the ranks, after erasing everyones memories of him. 

MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS #85, third story  The Beast becomes angry after realising that Xavier has erased his ex-girlfriends memories of him. The other X-Men subdue him. Marvel Girl is not yet on the team. 

MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS #88, third story  Dont own it, but I assume its more of the same. 

And then X-Men vol 1 #1. 

That would produce the following listing, which differs wildly from the one currently in the MCP for much of the first half... 

X 121-FB 
X 12-FB 
X 13-FB 
GAM3 4-FB 
X 12-FB 
XMF 4-FB 
UX 12-FB 
XMF 4-FB 
UX 12-FB 
XU 12-FB 
UX 12-FB 
XU 12-FB 
UX 12-FB 
UX 309-FB 
UX 12-FB 
UX 389-FB 
XCAL 79-FB 
UX 117-FB 
UX 12-FB 
UX 117-FB 
UX 389-FB 
UX 309-FB 
UX 117-FB 
UX 161-FB 
UX 309-FB 
X 40 
UX 321 
X 41 
X-MEN OMEGA 
UX 161-FB 
X/CD 1-FB 
UX 20-FB 
XX 44-FB 
UX 309-FB 
UX@ '00-FB 
UX 309-FB 
X-MEN: THE WEDDING ALBUM-FB 
BIZADV 27-FB 
CX 19/2-FB 
UX 273-FB 
CX 42/2-FB 
X-MEN: THE WEDDING ALBUM-FB 
X -1 
UX 38/2 
UX 39/2 
UX 40/2 
UX 41/2 
UX 42/2 
UX 309-FB 
UX 42/2 
UX 44/2 
UX 46/2 
UX 55/2 
UO 3 
UX 55/2 
UX 56/2 
UX 15-FB 
UX 51/2 
UX 52/2 
UX 53/2 
UX 15-FB 
UO 6 
UX 53/2 
MCP 85/3-FB 
MCP 88/3-FB 
UX 1 

Comments? 

Edited to add: I forgot Xavier and Magnus' appearances in X-MEN vol 2 #40, another chapter of LegionQuest. Again, it's arguable that this scene was deleted in X-MEN OMEGA (since it involves Legion), but my inclination would be to list it. 

Further edited to correct the X-MEN: THE WEDDING ALBUM listings in line with Jeph's analysis. 

Further edited to add references to UNCANNY ORIGINS and additional flashbacks from Juggernaut's stories.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

Last edited by Paul O'Brien on 15 Aug 2004 09:10 am; edited 4 times in total

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Posted: 11 Aug 2004 09:25 pm 
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Hey, Paul. 

Pretty impressive work here. It appears that you are not salvaging any scenes from Professor X and the X-Men as canonical. Have we written that entire series off or just portions that don't fit established continuity?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 Aug 2004 11:45 pm    
By SeanCurtin

There's also some flashback material in X-Men Unlimited #12. Although it's revealed via Spite's illusions, Juggernaut's dialogue suggests that it's all real (although his faulty memories might explain some erroneous dialogue, noted below). 

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
X-MEN vol 1 #12, p5pn4-6  Having been expelled from his boarding school, Cain Marko moves into the Xavier Mansion. He meets Charles for the first time (implying that at least one of them didnt even go to the wedding), and immediately hits him. 
<<<


X-Men Unlimited #12 p21pn1-p22pn1 - Shortly after his arrival, Kurt tries to convince Cain to be nicer to Charles. (Charles does not appear; Cain and Kurt are mostly in voiceover, only appearing on panel in p13pn1.) 

X-Men Unlimited #12 p22pn3-6 - Cain observes Kurt telling Sharon that Charles is "gifted" and will "change the world" and that Cain is "a bad seed". Charles does not appear. (Incidentally, Cain states here, "My real mother died when I was three.") Sharon is seen with a drink in hand, but the drink is colored blue and might just be water; given that their relationship seems to still be civil I'd place this before the flashback that reveals the abuse and alcoholism. 

Quote: 
>>>
UNCANNY X-MEN #309, p7pn5, p8pn2-3  A series of panels depicting an incident in which Charles, age 10, sees Kurt Marko beating Sharon, and comforts her afterwards. This flashback also asserts that Sharon turned to drink around this time, although nothing of that sort is shown. 

Sharon Xavier dies, heartbroken. Never actually depicted on panel, but referenced in the next flashback. 

X-MEN vol 1 #12, p7pn5-p8  Charles (still with hair) overhears Cain Marko try to blackmail Kurt. Cain alleges that Kurt murdered Brian. Charles intervenes, and in the ensuing altercation, Cain knocks over an experiment. There is an explosion, and the Mansion is set alight. Kurt Marko saves Cain and Charles from the fire. He reveals that he knows about Charles powers, and to beware of Cain. Then Kurt dies. 
<<<


X-Men Unlimited #12 p23pn2-p25pn2 - reiteration of UX 12 p7pn5-p8, with new details. Repeated dialogue differs slightly, notably in an error in which Cain threatens to "tell Sharon... that it was no accident her husband died at Almagordo." Exact sequence of events: 

UX 12 p7pn5-6, p8pn 1-4 (Cain confronts Kurt, Charles bursts in, Cain causes an explosion) 
XU 12 p24pn1-3 (Kurt picks up the stunned or unconscious Charles, then picks up the conscious, screaming Cain) 
UX 12 p8pn5-6 (Kurt carries the boys to safety, warns a now-lucid Charles about Cain, and dies) 
XU 12 p24pn4 (as UX p8pn6, ending with Charles saying "He's dead, Cain. Your father's dead." 
XU 12 p24pn5, p25pn2 (Cain broods in the wreckage of the lab) 

-Sean

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Posted: 12 Aug 2004 02:45 am    
By Peter Fabricius

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS #85, third story  The Beast becomes angry after realising that Xavier has erased his ex-girlfriends memories of him. The other X-Men subdue him. Marvel Girl is not yet on the team. 

MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS #88, third story  Dont own it, but I assume its more of the same. 
<<<


Minor correction, it is actually the second story in #88. The third story is a story with Solo. 

And you are coorect, it is more of the same, a training session in the Danger Room, with only Hank and Xavier.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: 12 Aug 2004 03:55 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
It appears that you are not salvaging any scenes from Professor X and the X-Men as canonical. Have we written that entire series off or just portions that don't fit established continuity? 
<<<


Well, the position on PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN seems to be a bit up in the air. My instinct is to dismiss it altogether. Most of the book is rewritings of existing stories, and I really don't like the idea of declaring fragmentary new scenes (eg, Jean in a taxi on the way to the X-Men Mansion at the beginning of PXX 1) to be canonical while asserting that the rest of the stories are wrong and that events took place as originally depicted. 

The arguable exception to that is the two original stories. The MCP does have a listing for PXX 4, which it places in two sections - one between the back-up stories in UX 46 and UX 54 (ie, between recruiting Iceman and recruiting the Beast), and one between UX 3-4. The issue also appears in the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver's chronologies (where it's shown interweaving with A 47-FB). On the other hand, the Blob had an original appearance in PXX, and that's not listed at all. 

A case can be made for PXX as canonical, but given that the overwhelming majority of the book has been dismissed as a Marvel Age-style retelling, I'm not personally inclined to make exceptions for what amounts to a relative handful of scenes.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 Aug 2004 04:07 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
There's also some flashback material in X-Men Unlimited #12.  
<<<


Thanks, Sean - I'll add that to the list!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 Aug 2004 10:59 am    
By Dhall

PXX Series - My take on it is that it needs to be examined more closely. I agree that some of the issues (and perhaps all of them) are poor retellings of the original stories. I would argue that IF we had an issue where the story matched the original (with minor dialogue rewrites, etc.) and there were new scenes, that we should consider those canon. If an issue is so different as to be a completely different story then we should forget about any extra scenes. 

The two new issues, are definitly meant to be canon. 

Dave H

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Posted: 12 Aug 2004 11:15 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
X-MEN: THE WEDDING ALBUM  Contains a flashback which is placed roughly here by the MCP. I dont have the issue  what is it? 


http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=59 

-Sean

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Posted: 13 Aug 2004 03:56 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, Sean!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Aug 2004 09:41 am    
By Dhall

Since I'm at work, I can't get the book # for you. There is a PXX which has a new story featuring (mostly) Iceman, as the X-Men prepare the mansion for Juggernaut's assualt. I noticed it's not listed in the MCP, so I'll have to pull it out and do a review. 

Dave H

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Posted: 13 Aug 2004 10:53 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

It looks like you're thinking of PXX #13 -- but that's not a "new story" -- it's just a re-telling of portions of UX #12-13, with several new scenes added. 

It should probably be subject to the same criteria as the other PXX issues -- if enough details match up with the original story, the new scenes should be considered for canonicity -- if enough details clash, they shouldn't. 

PXX #4, on the other hand, is in every way a new story. (Unfortunately, it clashes with X #-1 in terms of *when* Wanda and Pietro were recruited by Magneto, but I think I see a way around that...) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Aug 2004 04:37 pm    
By Dhall

From memory, most (over 80%) of the material is new. That puts it in a bit of a different class to me. 

Dave H

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Posted: 14 Aug 2004 11:19 am    
By Dhall

Regarding PXX 13, 
While a lot of the new material would actually fit in pretty well, there is a glaring inconsistancy which upon consideration has made me decide that we cannot salvage this issue after all. This is too bad, as I think the new material with Iceman, really shows his potential as a character, which is all too lacking in many of the issues that he appears in. Also the new material, beefs up the fortifying the mansion sequence, which in X-Men 12 consists of 2 measly pages. 

The format that is used in PXX has all of the flashback portions of X-Men 12 appear in PXX 12, and the action portions (with new material) in PXX 13. The problem is that since there is then no need for Xavier to be present in this story, he is relegated to the Danger Room control room for the entire time that Juggernaut is attacking the mansion. This directly contradicts what has been established in X-Men 12, where he is with the otehr X-Men, narrating his origin, and then near the end Jean wheels him down to the Danger Room. 

Sadly, I think we're going to have to throw out everything in PXX except for PXX 4. Just by flipping through a couple of issues, I've noticed glaring inconsistancies popping out. I'm throwing in the towel for PXX. 

This will probably be the fate of any "modern retelling" series that Marvel produces. Now does any know about the material in Marvel Saga? I should think we would want to treat that like Uncanny Origins, which shows previously told events with new art, but sticks to the original storyline. (That is if any of the material is new.) 

Dave H

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Posted: 14 Aug 2004 11:39 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

I would be inclined to accept any new material from MARVEL SAGA - it was a title produced for the express purpose of setting out a definitive version of Marvel history, and so there ought to be a very strong presumption in its favour.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 18 Aug 2004 04:27 pm    Post subject: Marvel Saga
By Enda80

Hmmm.....well, Marvel Saga#1 did feature five pages of new material...though I would be hard pressed to place it. I remember that it showed Conan, then Hercules fighting a lion (the Nemean Lion?), the Black Knight attacking a green-skinned, winged monster.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Aug 2004 06:32 pm    
By freetibet83

How would X-Men: Children of the Atom (1 - 6) tie into this chronology? Does it take place within continuity?

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Aug 2004 07:05 pm    
By Dhall

No it does not. 

Dave H

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Posted: 22 Aug 2004 09:50 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I'd always harbored a sad, secret hope that I could interweave the "Children of the Atom" series with the origin stories shown in the back of UX #38-56 ... but it looks more and more doubtful every time I read the series. Sigh. 

But hey, if "Hulk: Grey" #1 can be interwoven ... there's always hope, man. There's always hope. 

-Jeph! 
deluding self

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Aug 2004 04:13 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

CHILDREN OF THE ATOM is completely irreconcilable with the Origins of the X-Men stories - it's a different plot from the ground up. And that's clearly intentional, because Joe Casey dropped in a number of nudge-wink references to the original story (such as naming one of the football teams after El Conquistador). 

I think there were plans at one point to pull a CHAPTER ONE with it, and cement COTA as the official X-Men origin story, but nobody ever got round to it. I can certainly understand why Casey felt the desire to write something different, because "Origins of the X-Men" has never sounded like a classic to me. It's really just a string of workmanlike origin stories chained together. It's telling that these "Origin" stories are almost never referred to - they've had virtually no impact on the characters.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 23 Aug 2004 12:13 pm    
By Dhall

Still, they ARE the origin stories. Workmanlike as they may be, there's no real reason to change them. 

Dave H

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Posted: 23 Aug 2004 12:40 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Ehhh, I dunno. I think the absence of a remotely decent origin story for the team is a weakness of the X-Men. I honestly wouldn't object too much to somebody yanking all of that stuff out of continuity and replacing it with something better. None of it ever gets referred to anyway, so it's not like it would cause major knock-on effects. 

My position on continuity, basically, is that I want it to be stable. I don't want readers to be uncertain what happened and what didn't. If you can pull a nice clean retcon with minimal knock-on effects, and you're open about doing it, fair enough. Just as long as everyone's clear where they stand afterwards. There's usually only a point to doing this if you're clearing away a mediocre and unimportant story in order to make way for something better.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 23 Aug 2004 01:37 pm    
By freetibet83

I think I'd agree with that. 

As for this story not being referred to, yeah, it hasn't really gotten much credit, but remember, Joe Casey is releasing a similar "Year One" style Avengers story this November, so I think there is potential for "Children of the Atom" to get some references.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Aug 2004 02:14 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Last I heard, the plan was for his AVENGERS series to stick to existing continuity. 

Frankly, I don't care if Casey references COTA in an AVENGERS book - unless and until the X-Men titles adopt it, it doesn't count.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 23 Aug 2004 04:59 pm    
By SeanCurtin

He said in an interview that it'd bump Avengers #1.5 out of continuity, presumably because his series will treat the first appearances of Giant-Man and Doom in AVENGERS, and the Hulk's departure from the team, differently. 

-Sean

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Posted: 23 Aug 2004 07:10 pm    
By Dhall

See a retcon is one thing, they usually don't wipe out what we've seen in the past, they usually just alter it's meaning a great deal. I don't think origins are that big a deal for the X-Men. They did just fine for the first 48 issues without one. Besides which, these characters are mutants.....mutants don't need big origin stories to tell us how they got thier powers. I would be upset if a series tried to wipe out storylines and events that have been established since the 1960's. Since it's not that important, let us leave it alone. Now if they want to expand on someone who's origins realy need it, let's give Polaris a proper origin story. 

Dave H

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Posted: 24 Aug 2004 04:04 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
He said in an interview that it'd bump Avengers #1.5 out of continuity, presumably because his series will treat the first appearances of Giant-Man and Doom in AVENGERS, and the Hulk's departure from the team, differently. 
<<<


Well, I'm sure we can live without AVENGERS #1.5. I don't think it's even been referenced since it was published.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 24 Aug 2004 08:07 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I remember Paul B. having problems reconciling Avengers #1.5 with Human Torch #1 ... I'm loathe to see any comic jettisoned from continuity by sloppily-researched future publications, but if it was causing problems before ... maybe this is a good thing? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Aug 2004 01:54 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

If Casey's aware of it and deliberately ignoring it, then you can't accuse him of sloppy research.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 24 Aug 2004 10:02 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I remember Paul B. having problems reconciling Avengers #1.5 with Human Torch #1 ...  
<<<


The problem wasn't with Avengers #1.5. The problem was that page 17, panel 2 of Human Torch #1 had a reference to Avengers Mansion in a scene that must occur a year before the Avengers were formed. 

The problem with Avengers #1.5 was the references to the passage of time in that comic -- that issue must occur after TTA 49, so it cannot occur only a week after A 1. Judging from research in the Indexes and Marvel Saga, Avengers #1.5 must occur more than barely a year after FF 1, and it must be more than just a coupla months after FF 12. 

To me, those references aren't reason enough to jettison the whole story in favor of anything that might come along to contradict it.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 26

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 04:43 am    Post subject: Astonishing X-Men #4
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Just to say that I've deleted a one-post thread relating to this issue, since it contained an un-flagged spoiler, and had nothing to do with chronology.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 27

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 05:13 pm    Post subject: Legion of the Unliving were fakes.....
By Enda80

The Legion of the Unliving from Avengers Annual#16 were actually fakes. This is confirmed by Thor's dialogue with Skurge the Executioner, as well as in Avengers Log#1's entry for Legion of the Unliving II; 

"doppelgangers of deceased combatants created by the Grandmaster...." 

Should we demark the appropriate entries with some sort of symbol?

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Posted: 25 Aug 2004 09:22 pm    Post subject: Guardians -- canonical?
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I don't recall a previous post about this series, but I just picked up the first issue of Guardians (Sept. 2004) in a quarter bin. 

My inclination is to treat this series as non-canonical, since it's predicated on the general public's disbelief in the existence of extraterrestrial life. In the MU, there's been plenty enough evidence to the contrary. 

Opinions?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Aug 2004 09:31 pm    
By Ant-Man 

Marvel advertised this as a non-Marvel Universe title, so I would have to say non-canonical

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Aug 2004 09:39 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Cool. Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Aug 2004 04:41 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Where did Marvel advertise it as a non-MU title? I don't remember seeing that. 

Issue #2 has a shot of a spacecraft where the crew include recognisable MU aliens - Skrulls and so forth. 

Strictly speaking, the plot is premised on the extreme implausibility of what the kids claim to have experienced, rather than the existence of aliens more generally. Besides, there are plenty of previous stories in which characters have stubbornly treated superhuman powers, psychic abilities and magic as ridiculously unlikely, despite the fact that they're obviously commonplace.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 26 Aug 2004 07:59 am    
By Ant-Man

I'll try to dig back through my notes. I may have spoken too soon. For some reason I have it listed along with the new Starjammers series as being 2 new non-canonical series. 

Now I just have to figure out WHY I have that listed like that...

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 09:34 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Way too many "Average Joe" characters in the Marvel universe refuse to believe in the existence of Aliens, (though there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary). 

I partially blame it on some writers writing "average joes" as they would react in the real world. I've always figured "average joes" in the Marvel universe would believe in aliens whole heartedly. 

And this disbelief applies to the heroes at times as well...I remember back around 1999 when the Spidey titles were being rebooted, there was an issue where Spidey teamed up with Blade, and they were facing vampires. And Spidey spent the whole issue saying, "These aren't REAL vampires, cause I don't believe in the supernatural!" 

And I was like, "Sorry, but Peter's seen WAAAAAY too much to write off vampires as being urban legends." 

Sorry, I'm straying off topic, but I believe the "Average joes" in Guardians are being written as the stereotypical disbeliever who are all too common in the Marvel universe, (thanks to certain Marvel writers...)
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Thread 29

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 02:29 pm    Post subject: Jennifer Kale
By scottandrewhutchins

Jennifer Kale appeared in the following issues not listed: 

GR 77 
GR 78 
GR 79 
GR 80 
GR 81 
GR 82 
GR 83 
GR 86 
GR 88 
GR 89 
The Legion of Night 1 
The Legion of Night 2 
Witches 1 
Witches 2 
Witches 3 
Witches 4

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Posted: 26 Aug 2004 10:15 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Legion of Night and Witches have not been analyzed; if you have either of these series and would like to analyze them for the MCP, you can post an analysis in the Issue Analysis folder. Most if not all of the relevant issues of Ghost Rider are in the second Gap (see the FAQ for details). 

-Sean

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Thread 30

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 11:23 pm    Post subject: Chthon Notes
By Enda80

Finally found his chronology. However, to my knowledge, there is no ' in his name. 

Chthon appeared in a story set in the 1700's in Doctor Strange III#17/2 omitted from his chronology. 

More problematic is that Darkholders#6-7 revealed that the Scarlet Witch was not actually possessed by Cthon in Avengers, but rather that exposure to his aura caused her to develop a sort of dark side. So, Chthon was actually BTS in those issues. 

CHTHON 
T@ 10 
A 187-FB 
SS@ 2/5-FB 
A 187-FB 
M/CHIL 1-FB 
ASM@ 22/3-FB 
A 187-FB-BTS 
UX@ 12/3-FB 
**DRSTR3 17/2-FB 
{M/CHIL 1} 
M/CHIL 2 
A 185-BTS 
A 186-BTS 
A 187-BTS 
SW 44 
DRSTR3 72-BTS 
DRSTR3 90

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Thread 31

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 10:38 pm    Post subject: What's coming from Marvel in November...
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Here's the latest previews from Marvel, for the month of November, (so we can be prepared chronology-wise for what's to come): 

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=4111 

LOT'S of new stuff this month to take into consideration: 

The Avengers title is getting rebooted to issue #1, and is now called New Avengers. 

Captain America and Iron Man are starting over at Issue #1. No sign of Thor anywhere though... 

And Thunderbolts is back, as an ongoing series!!! And it's apparently called "New Thunderbolts" now... 

A new miniseries called "Avengers: Earth Mightiest Heroes" is debuting, and will shed new light on the period right after Avengers #1... 

There's a Marvel Holiday Special, (this looks like a one-shot). 

There's a new Marvel Team Up ongoing series...it's not going to star just Spiderman, (like in the old days)... 

Spiderman: India looks to be decidedly non-canon. 

And finally, I'll note that Nick Fury is popping up in the pages of Punisher, starting in issue 13...this will be the first time another "regular" Marvel hero has popped up there since Punisher went to the MAX...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Aug 2004 03:36 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The appearance of Nick Fury ought to resolve once and for all whether the current PUNISHER series is meant to be canonical. If the version of Ennis' FURY series turns up, it's evidently not in the MU. If it's the mainstream Nick Fury, we're in the MU. Simple. 

The solicitations make it pretty clear that AVENGERS: EARTH'S MIGHTIEST HEROES is canon: "A bi-weekly look into the early, pivotal period of the Marvel Universe... Previously untold secrets surrounding the formation of the Avengers are revealed..." Actually, the preview pages in MARVEL PREVIEWS look quite promising.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 Aug 2004 09:12 am    Post subject: Dracula
By Enda80

Maybe in November or so, they will finally release the rest of the Stoker novel adaptation that was left unfinished in the 1970's. That would serve as an interesting addition to Dracula's chronology.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Aug 2004 09:23 am 
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Er, they are. STOKER'S DRACULA #1 (of 4) was solicited for October 20. ("30 years later, comics legends Roy Thomas and Dick Giordano reunite to at last complete their unfinished B&W ink-wash adaptation of Bram Stokers classic tale of vampire horror, Dracula!") 

It's on a six-week schedule, so issue #2 will be out at the start of December.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 Aug 2004 08:40 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Hey, I just noticed: Where's the latest issue of the Dr. Strange miniseries? The third issue should have been listed in this month's Previews...this is an ominous sign...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Thread 32

Posted: 27 Aug 2004 09:40 pm    Post subject: Immortus, Kang, Rama-Tut, Scarlet Centurion
By SeanCurtin

Revised chronologies for all four entries, trying to account for the fact that they're essentially the same character. 

Analysis of the flashbacks in CA@ 11/4 would be helpful in determining where the flashbacks in A 269 and AVF 9 fit into Kang's early chronology, and what flashbacks are new material. Rama-Tut's chronology as currently listed seems wonky, and the revised version below probably needs to be checked by someone with the relevant issues at hand. 

IMMORTUS 
From KANG THE CONQUEROR 
**AVF 12 
**AVF 8-FB 
T 281-FB 
... 
A@ 2-BTS 
**AVF 8-FB 
A 131 
... 
A 254-BTS 
**AVF 8-FB 
WCA2 43-BTS 
... 
AWC 62 
**A 347-BTS 
**IM 278-BTS 
A@ 21/4 
**AVF 8-FB 
A 393 
... 
AVF 12 
**A 269-FB (skeleton) 

KANG THE CONQUEROR/"VICTOR TIMELY" 
From SCARLET CENTURION 
(move CA@ 11/4-FB and FF@ 2 to Rama-Tut entry) 
**A 269-FB 
**AVF 9-FB 
{A 8} 
... 
A 269-FB 
**AVF 9-FB 
T 160 
... 
AVF 9-FB 
See PHARAOH RAMA-TUT 
From PHARAOH RAMA-TUT 
AVF 9-FB 
... 
AVF 12 
Note: See also IMMORTUS 
XCAL2 4 

PHARAOH RAMA-TUT 
**WI2 39 
**CA@ 11/4-FB 
{FF 19-FB} 
... 
FF 19 
**C2 32-BTS 
C2 57 
FF@ 2/2 
See SCARLET CENTURION 
From KANG THE CONQUEROR 
A 129 
GSA 2 
FF@ 27 
WCA2 20 
GSA 2 
A 131 
A 132 
GSA 3 
See KANG THE CONQUEROR 

SCARLET CENTURION 
From PHARAOH RAMA-TUT 
A 56-BTS 
{A@ 2} 
See KANG THE CONQUEROR 

**SCARLET CENTURION | EARTH-S 
**SQS 9-FB 
{SQS 2} 
SQS 9 

-Sean

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Posted: 27 Aug 2004 10:19 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

I thought the Scarlet Centurion was Kang's son, not Kang himself...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Aug 2004 12:42 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Kevin, you're thinking of Scarlet Centurion II. Kang himself was the original.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 02:17 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Ah, I see...well, this confirms one thing: I'll never be able to sort out all of the Kang/Immortus timeline ... 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Thread 33

Posted: 28 Aug 2004 03:06 pm    Post subject: Zarathos question; Thor#431 showed....
By Enda80

I have a question on Zarathos; when was he freed from that crystal he and Centurious were sucked into? I ask because in Thor I#430, Mephisto was shown holding that gem that green gem from GR II#81 that contained the two of them. 

If Centurioius and Zarathos were still in that gem as of Thor I#430, then they ought to rate BTS appearances. If so, then; 

ZARATHOS 
BFF:S 3 
GR2 76 
GR2 80 
GR2 81 
ASM 274 
**T 431-BTS

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 05:48 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Is it #430 or #431? 

-Sean

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 07:42 pm    
By Enda80

Thor#430. My mistake.

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Thread 34

Posted: 28 Aug 2004 03:56 pm    Post subject: Hellcat question
By rhod

Is this the same Patsy Walker who had her own romance comic inthe 60's?

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 04:00 pm    
By Shmi

If I'm not mistaken, the romance comic books were stated to be fictional comic books written by Patsy's mother.

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 10:00 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

That is correct. This was established in the original Defenders series. So Patsy's appearances in those romance comics do not count in the MCP. But those romance comics themselves were part of the MU.
_________________
Paul B.

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Absorbing Man and discontinuity
By lkseitz

The Absorbing Man (Crusher Creel) appeared in SHE-HULK #6 this week (and #5 last month) absolutely no worse for the wear from his most recent HULK appearances (which I didn't read). A small thread was started in r.a.c.m.u about it and someone pointed to http://peterdavid.malibulist.com/archives/001857.html, stating Marvel has officially acknowledged, in a handbook but not a story, that Creel's recent appearance in Hulk were due to temporal anomaly. 

My question is, since Marvel published it, does the MCP accept it, even though it wasn't done in an actual story? And if so, how do Creel's discontinuous appearances in HULK get listed?
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 03:34 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The "temporal anomaly" explanation for the duplicate Absorbing Man comes from an issue of CAPTAIN MARVEL, which quite explicitly used the conflicting Absorbing Men as an example of a "discontinuity" arising from Captain Marvel destroying and remaking the universe. Apparently this can now be a Hypertime-style explanation for irreconcilable continuity errors. 

Basically, the guy in the HULK story appears to be some kind of alternate-reality or duplicate Absorbing Man inadvertantly created by Captain Marvel.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 20 Aug 2004 08:24 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
The "temporal anomaly" explanation for the duplicate Absorbing Man comes from an issue of CAPTAIN MARVEL, which quite explicitly used the conflicting Absorbing Men as an example of a "discontinuity" arising from Captain Marvel destroying and remaking the universe.  
<<<


That's correct. I recall discussing this in a previous thread. 

Quote: 
>>>
Apparently this can now be a Hypertime-style explanation for irreconcilable continuity errors.  
<<<


Oh, man. Wouldn't that be con-veeeeeen-ient? An instant excuse for writers to ignore continuity.  

Quote: 
>>>
Basically, the guy in the HULK story appears to be some kind of alternate-reality or duplicate Absorbing Man inadvertantly created by Captain Marvel. 
<<<


So how will we list him in the MCP? 

It's also interesting that somewhere behind the scenes the real Creel made his way from being a Thor follower to being an incarcerated felon.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 21 Aug 2004 11:04 am    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Oh, man. Wouldn't that be con-veeeeeen-ient? An instant excuse for writers to ignore continuity.  
<<<

Well, it's also provides us an excuse to ignore any absurd continuity errors made by writers...  

Quote: 
>>>
So how will we list him in the MCP? 
<<<
 
I notice there's a listing for Absorbing Man / Mutant X-verse...Maybe this version should be listed as Absorbing Man / Temporal Anomaly-Captain Marvel-verse? 


Quote: 
>>>
It's also interesting that somewhere behind the scenes the real Creel made his way from being a Thor follower to being an incarcerated felon. 
<<<

*sigh* Well, I guess with the removal of Asgard from Earth, and no one to lead him onwards down the 'path of good', Creel reverted to normal behavior....
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 22 Aug 2004 10:19 pm    
By lkseitz

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The "temporal anomaly" explanation for the duplicate Absorbing Man comes from an issue of CAPTAIN MARVEL, which quite explicitly used the conflicting Absorbing Men as an example of a "discontinuity" arising from Captain Marvel destroying and remaking the universe. 
<<<


Ah, I see. This is what I get for not actually having seen the CAPTAIN MARVEL story in question. Thanks!
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 23 Aug 2004 09:30 am    
By Ant-Man

Kevin W. wrote: 
Maybe this version should be listed as Absorbing Man / Temporal Anomaly-Captain Marvel-verse? 


That makes my head hurt... 

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Posted: 23 Aug 2004 09:38 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

How about just ABSORBING MAN II / CRUSHER CREEL II (alt.) ? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 Aug 2004 12:42 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Unless he turns up again, I'd be tempted to just list him as "Absorbing Man Duplicate" or something like that. We don't treat the Silver Surfer duplicate as Silver Surfer II, or the numerous Infinity War duplicates as extra iterations of the character. He's just a copy. 

And since he was killed off at the end of the Hulk story, it's highly unlikely we'll ever see him again.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 23 Aug 2004 02:25 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Works for me. 

Does Captain Marvel (vol. whatever) #25 add anything at all to this duplicate's chronology? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 Aug 2004 05:06 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
Unless he turns up again, I'd be tempted to just list him as "Absorbing Man Duplicate" or something like that. We don't treat the Silver Surfer duplicate as Silver Surfer II, or the numerous Infinity War duplicates as extra iterations of the character. He's just a copy. 


On a similar note, there are a bunch of Heroes Reborn duplicates that are listed as "Character Name II" and so forth that probably should be listed as "Character Name | Heroes Reborn". 

-Sean

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Posted: 24 Aug 2004 12:05 am    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
And since he was killed off at the end of the Hulk story, it's highly unlikely we'll ever see him again. 
<<<

Well, technically, he was reincarnated at the end of the story...back when it was still thought that this was THE Absorbing Man, I took this as a clear sign we'd see him again...but with Marvel pulling a switcheroo, we may indeed never see this version of Creel again... 


Quote: 
>>>
Does Captain Marvel (vol. whatever) #25 add anything at all to this duplicate's chronology? 
<<<

None whatsoever...Captain Marvel #25 does poke some fun at the barrier between dimensions, (if the 'real world' counts, so to speak)...but Creel and the events of Captain Marvel #18, (where this alternate reality concept came up) are not mentioned whatsoever...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 24 Aug 2004 12:12 am    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
On a similar note, there are a bunch of Heroes Reborn duplicates that are listed as "Character Name II" and so forth that probably should be listed as "Character Name | Heroes Reborn". 
<<<

Perhaps the difference is in when an "alternate character" appears in THIS Marvel Universe, (Earth 616) and when the "alternate character" appears in another universe...Thus, the Absorbing Man of the Mutant-X verse is listed "Absorbing Man l Mutant-X verse" and I agree, the Heroes Reborn Characters should be renamed as shown in Sean's example above...but the duplicates that appear in this dimension, (like the ones listed in Paul O's post) get listed as "Character Name l Duplicate" or something like that....this version of the Absorbing Man would follow that criteria then...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 24 Aug 2004 08:06 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Kevin, I'm sorry, I meant Captain Marvel v6 #18, not #25 ... any new scenes of the Absorbing Man II there? 

Also, I agree on the difference between alt-universe characters that show up in the Marvel Universe, versus ones that stay in their own dimension ... however, the Heroes Reborn situation is a bad example. Remember, the HR Earth was physically relocated to the Marvel Universe -- it now orbits the far side of the sun -- so, all the HR characters are actually now residents of the Marvel Universe -- and should probably get the "II" notation rather than the "| Heroes Reborn" notation. 

Ideally, I'd like to see every "alternate universe" eventually get its own page (all the Mutant X characters, for example), and make the main MCP listings ONLY for characters that are native to, or now live in, the main Marvel Universe. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 Aug 2004 02:01 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Kevin, I'm sorry, I meant Captain Marvel v6 #18, not #25 ... any new scenes of the Absorbing Man II there? 
<<<

Nope, nothing new. I don't have the issue in front of me, but in it, the characters are talking about the universe being remade over the course of events in Captain Marvel v6, and they mention how this event produced "alternate characters" in some cases. As an example, (which really has nothing to do with the plot in Captain Marvel), we see a panel showing the "Absorbing Man" seen in Dan Jurgen's Thor, and we see another panel showing an "Absorbing Man" seen in Bruce Jones' Hulk. Both panels show scenes already seen from the prior books...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 26 Aug 2004 01:16 pm    
By lkseitz

jephyork wrote: 
Ideally, I'd like to see every "alternate universe" eventually get its own page (all the Mutant X characters, for example), and make the main MCP listings ONLY for characters that are native to, or now live in, the main Marvel Universe. 


I'm with you up until "now live in." That's a dangerous and slippery path. As already mentioned, most the Heroes Reborn characters now live in the Marvel Universe. So do all the New Universe characters. The members of Squadron Supreme come from an alternate universe, but lived in the mainstream one for a few years (real time) before going back. I doubt our beloved Administrator wants to have to be shuffling characters around every time they move to a new universe.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 26 Aug 2004 01:36 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

On the other hand, there are characters like Rachel Summers who are native to a divergent future but now reside in, and have made the majority of their appearances in, the main Marvel Universe ... should she be removed from the main MCP listings, and listed *only* in the eventual page I hope to have for 2013 characters? 

That's the sort of thing I was trying to cover by the phrase "now live in". 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Aug 2004 01:55 pm    
By lkseitz

jephyork wrote: 
On the other hand, there are characters like Rachel Summers who are native to a divergent future but now reside in, and have made the majority of their appearances in, the main Marvel Universe ... should she be removed from the main MCP listings, and listed *only* in the eventual page I hope to have for 2013 characters? 

That's the sort of thing I was trying to cover by the phrase "now live in". 


Well, seeing as I'm not the one that would have to do the work, in this particular case I'd list her in the main section with a link to that entry from the 2013 section. But before such a thing is done, there's needs to be hard rule written about how such cases should be handled. I can forsee so many exceptions that I have no clue how to create such a rule. 

Actually, the more I think about it, the less I like this idea after all. The Marvel Universe is actually a multiverse at this point, with semi-frequent inter-universe journeys. Trying to sort all the alternate characters will probably drive you (the Directors) mad. You don't want a separate page for every issue of WHAT IF...?, but you don't really want to see a hundred variant Spider-Man listed on the main page either. You could stick them all on a single WI? page, but then you have the lovely case of Spider-Girl, where an issue of WI?2 spawned an entire universe of titles (MC-2). And then there are WI? worlds that have been seen more than once, such as that issue of QUASAR that briefly revisits some of them. Add to that the previous examples (Squadron Supreme, Rachel Summers) and it's madness I tell you. Madness! 

_________________ 
Lee K. Seitz 
Running away screaming

Last edited by lkseitz on 30 Aug 2004 11:09 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 26 Aug 2004 02:05 pm    
By Ant-Man

I guess the Yellowjacket II / Guardians of the Galaxy situation might fall into this category...or am I off track?

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 11:12 pm    
By Starman

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
On the other hand, there are characters like Rachel Summers who are native to a divergent future but now reside in, and have made the majority of their appearances in, the main Marvel Universe ... should she be removed from the main MCP listings, and listed *only* in the eventual page I hope to have for 2013 characters? 

That's the sort of thing I was trying to cover by the phrase "now live in". 
<<<

Well, if there ever will be a 2013 page, I hope you call it Days Of Future Past instead. I don't think that year is valid anymore. The year is for example not mentioned even once in Wolverine: Days of Future Past #1-3. Not what I could find anyway. 

In addition UncannyXmen.Net does also call that timeline Days of Future Past.  

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/time/showfaq.asp?fldAuto=9
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 11:33 pm    
By Dhall

Yes, let us dispense with all the 2013 notations for characters. The DofP now has 2012, 2013, 2015, and probably more, so it's innacurate at this point. Let's just go With Days of Future Past for Rachel's timeline.....

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Thread 36

Posted: 21 Aug 2004 08:44 pm    Post subject: I have a differing opinion on the chronology of Johnny Blaze
By zarathos42

In the chronology of Ghost Rider II (Johnny Blaze) I have an issue in a different place from you. You have the following issues in this order: GR2 63, M/SH3 11, SS3 14, M/GN 1, SS@ 6, A 214. Now most of these I can't say if they're right or not, I only have GR2 63 and A 214 from these books. In my poinion GR2 63 has to come after A 214. 
In A 214 Blaze says, "--while I'm wondering when I'll be able to afford a meal again!" (page 9 panel 3) Then on page 15 panel 5 he says, "Got me a job pumping gas so I can eat regular!" This contradicts events that happen in GR2 63, namely that Blaze gets a job working for the Quentin Carnival. This job lasts untill issue 80. This is why I feel that A 214 shoild come first. 
Sadly I don't have the others I listed so I don't know if they fit or not. 
Also I have an appearance you haven't listed, M/SPT 22. Admittedly he is a product of Hellstrom's mind and only on one page but I still think it should be listed for those wanting to know all the appearances. I have this book between GR2 12 and 13. 
Hopefully this will help. I know that you helped me know what issues I'm missing (16 to be exact).
_________________
The God Zarathos shall some day return to his former glory. Or at least I hope he does.

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Posted: 21 Aug 2004 10:46 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

You make a good point with the job references. 

The MCP has based the order on the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers, Vol. 2 #4, which states that Ghost Rider appears in A 214 between GR2 63 and 64. 

Does anyone have all the comics listed so we can see if the sequence of Ghost Rider's/Johnny Blaze's appearances makes sense?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 21 Aug 2004 11:05 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

zarathos42 wrote: 
>>>
Also I have an appearance you haven't listed, M/SPT 22. Admittedly he is a product of Hellstrom's mind and only on one page but I still think it should be listed for those wanting to know all the appearances. 
<<<


This is addressed in the FAQ. Answer #4 applies here. 


watching: degrassi the next generation

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Posted: 21 Aug 2004 11:42 pm    
By zarathos42

Ok that clears that up for me. I should have read the FAQ's. My fault for not paying attention I guess.
_________________
The God Zarathos shall some day return to his former glory. Or at least I hope he does.

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Posted: 22 Aug 2004 03:06 pm    Post subject: Quick question....does
By Enda80

I seem to have a Ghost Rider fan on the horn, so I though I would ask; does Ghost Rider III#11 add much to the flashback in Ghost Rider II#77 to Zarathos' origin? Just wondering.

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Posted: 22 Aug 2004 05:11 pm    
By zarathos42

No there is nothing new added. Howard Mackie was able to take the relevant facts from GR2 77 and tell it all in two pages. Gotta say though it was cool to know that GR was once a god. guess that's why he was able to do things like take on The Avengers(A 214) and insult Zues(CHAMP 3).
_________________
The God Zarathos shall some day return to his former glory. Or at least I hope he does.

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Posted: 24 Aug 2004 01:15 pm    
By zarathos42

Hopefully someone will see thisthat can help me. I'm attempting to obtain EVERY appearance of Ghost Rider, in all the forms(western, Blaze, Ketch, and the others). If anyone knows of any appearances not listed here in the MCP I'll appreciate it. I don't care if they're cannon or not, I just want all the appearances. 
Also, I have some Ketch appearances not listed. I'm currently going through trying to sort it all out in chronological order. When I get what I feel is right how do I get what I feel is right to you?
_________________
The God Zarathos shall some day return to his former glory. Or at least I hope he does.

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Posted: 24 Aug 2004 05:45 pm    
By ADMINSTRATOR

If you find canon appearances in books that are already in the MCP, then this is the place to notify us, right here in this forum. 

If the book is not currently included in the MCP, you should post an analysis in the Issue Analysis Forum, here on the MCP. Instructions on how to perform an analysis are in the FAQ, and you should read several existing threads in the forum to understand what we're looking for. If we don't have the book in the Project already, we need to know *everyone* who appears, not just Ghost Rider. 

If the book was published in 1993 or the first half of 1994, we are not currently accepting analyses. Again, read the FAQ for more information. 

And when we say "the FAQ", we mean the FAQ for the MCP. You'll find a link at the bottom of every page in the forums, and to the left of every page in the MCP proper. The link that you see at the top of this page is the FAQ for the Forum, not the MCP itself. 

Looking forward to your contribution. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 27 Aug 2004 10:07 pm    
By zarathos42

Ok I think I have two ready. I just need to check about the dates. The stories I have are from June of '94. Too early?
_________________
The God Zarathos shall some day return to his former glory. Or at least I hope he does.

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Posted: 27 Aug 2004 10:41 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

That'll be fine, but remember to post it in the Issue Analysis forum. 


watching: phantasm II (on America Movie Classics? Classics?! I mean, Phantasm, I can understand, but...Phantasm II? What have we become? What's next, Puppet Master? (looks at guide, squints eyes) Wait a minute. Dear God, that *is* next.)

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Posted: 27 Aug 2004 10:49 pm    
By zarathos42

Now I know this isn't about comics but... ANYTHING with Reggie is a classic, even Phantasm 2. He's a great guy, he'll talk your ear off though if you meet him. Speaking from experience on this. 
Ok back to comics now.[/quote]
_________________
The God Zarathos shall some day return to his former glory. Or at least I hope he does.

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 05:02 am    
By JLH

You mean to say that all the missing issues of GR from mid-94 onward were available for analysis all this time? And that they didn't count as extensions of the original Gap? 

NOW you tell me... 

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Posted: 29 Aug 2004 08:52 pm    
By Ant-Man

zarathos42 wrote: 
>>>
Hopefully someone will see this that can help me. I'm attempting to obtain EVERY appearance of Ghost Rider, in all the forms(western, Blaze, Ketch, and the others). If anyone knows of any appearances not listed here in the MCP I'll appreciate it. I don't care if they're cannon or not, I just want all the appearances. 
<<<


Well, if you're not concerned about canonicity, do you have Beavis & Butt-Head #7 ? 
It feature Ghost Rider by Javier Saltares. 
I thought it was interesting how that series featured them reading comics, and it was usually the regular artist for that character that supplied the artwork. Plus, it was always new material. It wasn't clipped from some other book. Issue #7 also feature Namor by Geof Isherwood...

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Posted: 29 Aug 2004 09:56 pm    
By zarathos42

Oh god, I HATE Beavis and Butt-head. But now I have to find it. Hell I'd buy an issue of Barbie if GR was in the story.
_________________
The God Zarathos shall some day return to his former glory. Or at least I hope he does.

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Posted: 29 Aug 2004 10:20 pm    Post subject: Witches; name who that is......
By Enda80

Witches#1 had a spot that charage page 

The characters identified are 
Morgan LeFay, 
the Scarlet Witch, 
Jack Russell, 
Snowbird, 
Nekra, 
Belasco, 
Brother Voodoo, 
Agatha Harkness, and 
Glamour 
Illusion 

The hooded figure could be Gaea. 

The one with the trident pendant on her neck could be Llyra. 

http://www.vengeanceunbound.com/images/witchespread.jpg a copy of the image from that issue 

http://www.vengeanceunbound.com/W01.html

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Posted: 30 Aug 2004 09:28 am    
By Ant-Man

Here's the list (in no particular order) according to Mike Deodato Jr. 

Gaea 
Scarlet Witch 
Agatha Harkness 
Belasco 
Selene 
Enchantress 
Morgan LeFey 
Brother Voodoo 
Jack Russell 
Glamour 
Illusion 
Nekra 
Lilith

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Posted: 30 Aug 2004 09:41 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I'm no expert on the MU mystics, but that reeeally looks like Snowbird on the bottom right. Which one from that list is it supposed to be? 

-Jeph! 
Heh. "Which witch"...

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Posted: 30 Aug 2004 09:45 am    
By Ant-Man

Enchantress

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Thread 38

Posted: 30 Aug 2004 07:56 pm    Post subject: Magma (New Mutants) in Hel? Index.......
By Enda80

NMSE 1 
T 362 
NMSE 1 

I had heard about this. Magma supposedly got sent to Hel for eating dark elf food. I had heard that the 1990's X-Men Index did not acknowledge this appearance, but that a letters page in Thor supported that that was Magma. I think it was Thor I#468.

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Thread 39

Posted: 31 Aug 2004 05:04 am    Post subject: Winston Churchill question
By Enda80

CHURCHILL, SIR WINSTON 
INH2 10-FB 
When does this Inhumans appearance take place? I ran across an issue of Namor where Churchill sends Shackleton to find Vibranium in 1915, and I was wondering how to place it.

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Posted: 31 Aug 2004 02:13 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

The comic itself states that it takes place in the afternoon of 14th November 1940
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: 31 Aug 2004 03:59 pm    Post subject: Well, Namor 52 was published in 1994, but anyway......

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CHURCHILL, SIR WINSTON 
**N 52-FB-BTS 
INH2 10-FB 
{GSINV 1} 
INV 3-FB 
INV 3-BTS 
INV 4 
INV 30

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Thread 40

Posted: 04 Aug 2004 03:35 pm    Post subject: Venom #6-10
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Whoops! I went on vacation for a week or so there, came back and this completely slipped my mind! Here's a quick write-up  feel free to ask for clarifying details if necessary. 

-Jeph! 


Venom #6-10 
"Run" 

---- 

Venom #6 

The Suit, carrying Patricia Robertson, tracks Venom across the Arctic tundra. As they conceal themselves from a hovercraft that's also looking for Venom, the Suit reports in to his superior that Venom is headed towards a settlement  the small town of Voici, in Canada's Northwest Territories. That night, Venom arrives, and begins killing people and hopping bodies. Meanwhile, the occupants of the hovercraft  two odd young ladies  arrive in a Voici bar, where they encounter Wolverine 

Appearances: 
Lieutenant Patricia Robertson 
the Suit 
Frankie II 
Vic II 
Venom (II?) 
Wolverine 
the Suit's superior, BTS (speaking to him via cellphone  Mr. Fantastic?) 

Ivan (the dog that Venom escaped on in V #5  corpse  does the MCP track named but non-sidekick animals?) 
Orrie (a Venom host) 
Clem (a Venom host) 

Temporal references: 
Pp.1-13 take place in the daytime, "70 miles SSE" of the US Radar Station "Christmastown", where V #1-5 took place. In V #1 (the only other issue I have), Christmastown was said to be 50 miles North of the Arctic Circle. (Anyone want to do the math out and figure out how many miles straight south they've gone?) Without having read V #5, this looks like pretty much a straight continuation  the Suit is chasing Venom, and he's only travelled 70 miles  and as a synthetic being, you'd think he'd travel fast, even carrying Patricia. When she awakens, he keeps speaking to the urgency of recapturing Venom. My best guess is, if V #5 ended in daytime, this is that same day  and if V #5 ended at night, this would be the very next morning. 

Pp.14-22 take place that same night, in Voici, a small settlement in the Northwest Territories populated by about 150 loggers and pipeline workers. Voici is farther SSE of Christmastown  the Suit remarks that he should reach Voici by dawn. There is  wait for it  a full moon out that night. 

It's snowing, hard up north in the daytime, and lightly in Voici that night. 

Notes: 
Later issues will reveal that the Frankie and Vic seen here are clones  and, from preview pages I've seen, I think they'll reveal that the Venom symbiote featured in this series is a clone as well. Also, we'll later discover that Reed Richards is behind the technology that created the Suit  could he be the "superior" that the Suit keeps reporting to via cellphone? 

I'm not sure who to credit first  the original Frankie and Vic, or their clones. The clones appear on-panel first, in publishing order, but it seems odd to credit clones with a "I" and the originals with a "II". I'm fairly sure that the original Frankie and Vic appear in flashbacks that precede the clone's first appearances, though  does that count as them "appearing first" chronologically? I'm giving the clones here "II" notations  feel free to debate or disagree with this 

Also, V #10 reveals Vic's full first name ("Victoria", of course). Meaning that "Frankie" and "Vic" arent really code-names  they're real first names. And we're not supposed to list characters who we only know by first name. Do later issues ever reveal Frankie and Vic's last names? If not, do we list them in the MCP simply as "Frankie" and "Vic / Victoria"? Do we not list them at all? 

Anyone who's read more Venom issues, please feel free to jump in here 

---- 

Venom #7 

Venom attacks the patrons in a diner, who run screaming into the snow  only to be shot down by Frankie and Vic, who are trying to deny Venom a suitable host body. Frankie is attacked by Wolverine, who is in turn attacked by Venom  and Vic is ambushed by the Suit. As a fleeing Frankie encounters Patricia Robertson, the Suit realizes that Venom wants Wolverine for a host body  and promptly fries Wolverine to a crisp. 

Appearances: 
Venom (II?) 
Frankie II 
Vic II 
Wolverine 
the Suit 
Patricia Robertson 
the Suit's superior, BTS (speaking to him via cellphone  Mr. Fantastic?) 

Clem (a Venom host) 
Nan (a Venom host) 
Yooper 

Temporal references: 
It's daytime in Voici  presumably the day after V #6. No snow today. 

Notes: 
Did Frankie and Vic appear in V #1-5? Frankie recognizes Patricia here. 

---- 

Venom #8 

Patricia Robertson fights Frankie, knocking off her wig  revealing a bald head and a collar with tubes and wires leading into her skull. Vic stops the Suit from attacking Venom, and removes HER wig as well, revealing the same thing. Apparently, both of them have been modified into "Venom traps"  if he takes either of them as a host body, he'll become trapped there. Cornered between Vic and the Suit, Venom looks to have no choice but to merge with her  but then Yooper, one of the survivors from the diner, regains consciousness  and Venom possesses him and flees. Frankie and Vic blast the Suit and board their hovercraft, where we see that Frankie has taken Patricia prisoner. As Wolverine recovers, he sees the Suit lying prone  nanobots crawling out of his eyes to fix him. Wolvie recognizes the nanites as Reed Richards' work  just as Frankie and Vic get their orders from their superior  to nuke Voici. Which they do. 

As the nuclear dust clears and Wolverine lies healing (again), the fully-repaired Suit does something mysterious and off-panel with his cellphone 

Appearances: 
Patricia Robertson 
Frankie II 
Vic II 
Venom (II?) 
the Suit 
Wolverine 
Frankie and Vic's superior, BTS (text messages shown  "The Arc"?) 
the Suit's superior, BTS (speaking to him via cellphone  Mr. Fantastic?) 

Nan (a Venom host) 
Yooper (a Venom host) 

Temporal references: 
Continues directly from V #7. Blue sky with clouds and light snow, in Voici. 

Notes: 
Yes, Wolverine survives a point-blank nuclear explosion. 

Also, Frankie and Vic mention "contacting The Arc" for further instructions  I don't know if that refers to the name of their superior, of the name of their base. Their superior is shown on-panel in V #10 as a rich old man in an office in the Empire State Building, leading me to think that "the Arc" *isn't* their base name  but those preview pages I mentioned earlier showed the original Frankie and Vic cloning Venom in some lab  perhaps *that's* the Arc. Or maybe it's their superior's name. I don't know. Has this been made clear in future Venom issues? 

---- 

Venom #9 

Having killed off nearly every living thing in Voici, leaving Venom without host bodies, Frankie and Vic search for the symbiote. Their scanners detect him in a cellar, but when they investigate, they discover that he's taken hundreds of cockroaches as his host bodies  overrunning them and killing Frankie. Vic, running, is then killed by the Suit  who then commandeers their hovercraft and discovers Patricia on board. Meanwhile, Wolverine recovers, examining a strange gash in his chest  and is attacked and possessed by Venom. 

Patricia awakens to find the Suit using nanites to create a new cellphone  and discovers that he has implanted Vic's control collar onto her! As they argue, the Suit is attacked from behind and chopped into pieces  by Venom, who has fully possessed Wolverine and now weilds his claws. Venom is about to kill Patricia, but is stopped by the arrival of ANOTHER hovercraft  with ANOTHER Frankie and Vic inside 

Appearances: 
Wolverine 
Frankie II 
Vic II 
Patricia Robertson 
Venom (II?) 
the Suit 
Frankie III 
Vic III 
Frankie and Vic's superior (voice heard  "The Arc"?) 

Temporal references: 
It's nighttime, presumably the night of (as in, the same calendar day as) V #7-8. Another full moon, of course. 

---- 

Venom #10 

Venom downs the second hovercraft and kills the second Frankie. The second Vic chases after Venom, but trips over the body of the first Vic  and realizes that her organization has made more clones than they let on. Distraught that she had been lied to, the second Vic shoots herself in the head  as, back in the first hovercraft, the Suit's disembodied head explains to Patricia that the new phone is a detonator, that will signal his original phone to explode. Patricia is attacked by Venom, and presses the detonation key triggering the first phone, which it turns out the Suit had placed inside Wolverine! The explosion disperses Venom  and when Patricia comes to, she picks up the Suit's head, leaves the hovercraft, and reveals that Venom has possessed her  but, thank to the control collar, he is trapped. She webs the Suit to a tree stump and leaves. The next morning, Wolverine comes to, realizes what happened, and walks off  past the now-empty tree stump. In an epilogue, eighteen days later, Patricia resurfaces in Buffalo, New York, where her pay phone call is intercepted by yet ANOTHER Frankie and Vic  who report Patricia's whereabouts to their boss, a rich old man whose office is in the Empire State Building. As he stares out the window, musing about finally ending things, Spider-Man swings by 

Appearances: 
Frankie III 
Vic III 
Venom (II?) 
Wolverine 
Vic II (corpse) 
Patricia Robertson 
the Suit 
Jack Mitchell (voice on phone) 
Frankie (I? IV?) 
Vic (I? IV?) 
Frankie and Vic's superior ("The Arc"?) 
Spider-Man 

Temporal references: 
Pp.1-17 occur the same night as V #9. Full moon, still. It has begun to snow. 

Pp.18-19 occur the next morning, still in Voici. Snowing lightly. Wolverine sets off on foot for the next bar, "a hundred miles down the road", and by the sun's position, he's headed southeast. 

Pp.20-22 occur "eighteen days later", meaning that if pp.18-19 were "day three" of this arc, this would now be day 21. Blue sky and clouds at 10:30am in Buffalo and New York City, and although there's no snow, it looks to be coldish weather  I say "cold-ish" because I see one family wearing heavy jackets, hats, gloves and scarfs, but I see a young man just wearing a hooded sweatshirt. 

Notes: 
I have no idea if the Frankie and Vic seen at the end of this issue are more clones, or the originals  do future Venom issues shed light on this? 

---- 

MCP-style summaries: 


FRANKIE II 
V 6 
V 7 
V 8 
V 9 

FRANKIE III 
V 9 
V 10 

MITCHELL, JACK 
V 10 

ROBERTSON, PATRICIA 
 
V 6 
V 7 
V 8 
V 9 
V 10 
 

SPIDER-MAN / PETER PARKER 
 
V 10 
 

THE SUIT 
 
V 6 
V 7 
V 8 
V 9 
V 10 

VENOM (II?) 
 
V 6 
V 7 
V 8 
V 9 
V 10 
 

VIC II / VICTORIA 
V 6 
V 7 
V 8 
V 9 
V 10 

VIC III / VICTORIA 
V9 
V 10 

WOLVERINE / JAMES HOWLETT / "LOGAN" 
 
V 6 
V 7 
V 8 
V 9 
V 10 
 

---- 

Characters whose identities I'm unsure of: 

FRANKIE (I? IV?) 
V10 

VIC (I? IV?) / VICTORIA 
V 10 

[Frankie and Vic's superior] ("THE ARC"?) 
V 8-BTS 
V 9 
V 10 


[the Suit's superior] (MR. FANTASTIC?) 
V 6-BTS 
V 7-BTS 
V 8-BTS 

---- 

Random Venom hosts w/ no last names: 

CLEM 
V 6 
V 7 

IVAN (dog) 
 
V 6 

NAN 
V 7 
V 8 

ORRIE 
V 6 

YOOPER 
V 7 
V 8 

("Yooper" may actually be a last name  should he get an MCP listing then?)

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Aug 2004 04:40 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
As Wolverine recovers, he sees the Suit lying prone  nanobots crawling out of his eyes to fix him. Wolvie recognizes the nanites as Reed Richards' work  just as Frankie and Vic get their orders from their superior  to nuke Voici.  
<<<

Well, I don't have the issues you're looking at here, but in #11, Mr. Fantastic talks about the nanites in more detail. He claims to have found them (where would Wolverine have studied Reed's microcircuitry before, anyway?) and has established rudimentary communication. While they are receptive to his suggestions, they have a type of collective consciousness that does not seem to regard him as a superior or a leader or anything. 

Additionally, the piece of Venom's tongue that Reed gives them to examine is evidently the first time he's aware of their interaction with any part of the symbiote. 

I don't know if this has been clarified in later issues, but I would say that Reed is NOT the entity they are talking with in these issues. 

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2004 05:39 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Notes: 
I have no idea if the Frankie and Vic seen at the end of this issue are more clones, or the originals  do future Venom issues shed light on this? 
<<<

The angle with Frankie and Vic is that they're all clones, but none of them know it (or even know that the other clones exist). They all think they're top-drawer special agents, when in fact they're just cannon fodder. Basically, every office has its own Frankie and Vic, blissfully unaware of the existence of the others. 

One of the clones actually survives this storyline and turns up again in "Twist", having turned on Bob's organisation after learning the truth. (Can't remember which one, and I'm at work at the moment.) Other than that, they're just glorified henchmen.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2004 07:13 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

When does this story arc end? Somehow Venom has to get free of Patricia in Buffalo and end up in NYC in Spectacular Spider-Man v2 #1. And I have no clue about Venom's chronology after issue #5 of Spectacular. 

BTW, because Logan appears in VENOM 6-10, I've had to slide VENOM 1-5 forward on the calendar a day to prevent a conflict.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2004 07:42 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

No, no, no, no... all of this gets explained in the third VENOM arc. 

In a nutshell: The creature that's appearing in VENOM isn't Venom. A while back, part of the symbiote got severed in battle. Bob's organisation got hold of it and grew it into a second symbiote - like taking a cutting. Then they sent the symbiote up to the Arctic for further experiments. 

That's where we come in with VENOM #1. 

The third VENOM arc is entirely a flashback, explaining all of this (and trying to unscramble the continuity mess - which, to be fair, was supposedly not the original plan). In the current arc, Patricia and Venom II finally arrive in New York and cross paths with the real Venom, who is depicted in accordance with his SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN status quo. 

It's an absolute mess - but to be fair, there IS an explanation buried in there.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2004 09:04 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Ah, thus the "Venom (II?)." This is a bit confusing. I'd be interested in seeing a brief chronological list of the events involving Venom and this "Venom II." From the sound of it, we have VENOM 11-13 (or flashbacks therein), then VENOM 1-10. Then I assume SPECTACULAR #1-5 come along, followed by VENOM 14-18 (Venom I vs. Venom II), then I suppose VENOM/CARNAGE 1-4.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2004 12:23 am 
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
I'm not sure who to credit first  the original Frankie and Vic, or their clones. The clones appear on-panel first, in publishing order, but it seems odd to credit clones with a "I" and the originals with a "II". I'm fairly sure that the original Frankie and Vic appear in flashbacks that precede the clone's first appearances, though  does that count as them "appearing first" chronologically? I'm giving the clones here "II" notations  feel free to debate or disagree with this 


The MCP already lists ADORA CLONE and ROM CLONE, and possibly others. Under that convention, the characters from Venom would be listed as FRANKIE CLONE I, VIC CLONE II, and so forth. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 41

Posted: 05 Aug 2004 01:56 pm    Post subject: Captain America: What Price Glory? 2-4
By John Simons

Captain America: What Price Glory #2 (May 2003) 

Pages 1-11 (Thursday): 

Issue 1 ended with Steve hopping a plane for Vegas, and this issue opens with him arriving (probably on a Thursday morning, see issue #3 description below). The first thing he sees is a gigantic statue of the Red Skull, part of the new Captain America theme park which he authorized, since the proceeds go to charity. According to the planes captain, it is 11:26 am and a balmy 78 degrees with clear skies and twenty percent humidity. Steve checks in at Spanos hotel, the Reef, where the bellboy mentions in conversation that his boss is planning a hostile takeover of the park. 

Down in the casino, it doesnt take long for Steve to spot Pasha, but a friendly girl named Tina Foley who is sitting at the bar near him warns him that she belongs lock, stock and barrel to Nicoli Spano Tina convinces Steve to dance, but he begs off having dinner with her because night is when I go to work 

After dark, some construction workers are still on the job at the Cap park (they must be earning some wicked overtime pay!) when some of Spanos thugs come around to intimidate them. They knock over and smash a Cap statue, but then the real Cap comes out of the shadows and lays into them. After they are all unconscious, the crew complains to Cap that Spanos so vindictive he goes after yer family, that half the police are on his payroll and he is slowly taking over the entire town. 

Pages 11- 19(Friday): 

The next evening, Steve watches Pasha lose some more money at the casino, then buys her a drink. He asks her to dance, and as they do she warns him that Spano might hurt him if he doesnt back off. Steve begins to try to convince her she should leave, saying things like A gilded cage is still a cage He follows her out to a garden, where only the bottom fifth of the moon can be seen. His words seem to fall on deaf ears and she stalks away from him again. Tina finds Steve and asks are you working late again? 

2:00 am, at Spanos amusement park, Cap spots some thugs sabotaging the roller coaster. In order to intimidate them, Cap ties them up and forces them to ride the coaster! Of course, he pulls them out before they reach the sabotaged section of the ride. 

Back in his hotel room, Steve attacked by one of Spanos thugs, whom he flips into a chair. The thug pulls a gun, and Steve has no shield! Suddenly a masked woman in black busts in and defeats the thug. She unmasks, and its Tina! She deflects Steves question about whether she works for SHIELD by saying, Lets just say a mutual friend back east asked me to keep an eye on you. Steve gives the unconsicious thug to the housekeeper who knocks on his door (investigating a report of noises) and by the time he turns around Tina is gone. He climbs up and down the walls of the hotel pursuing her, but he becomes distracted when he accidentally comes across Spanos window, and watches Pasha give him a back massage. 

Pages 19-23: (Saturday) 

A sun-drenched next afternoon, Pasha is sunning herself on the beach when Steve approaches her again. She saw him out the window and mentions it to him. Pasha feels that Spanos goons are probably watching them from his yacht through binoculars, and when Steve gets too close she slaps him, for his own good! Steve keeps trying to convince her to leave, but she is held back because Spano would crumble without me. As she hops a jet ski to ride out to the yacht, Steve is worried that he may be falling for her. He watches in horror as her jet ski collides with a racing motor boat! 

Characters in this issue: CAPTAIN AMERICA, NICOLI SPANO, PASHA SPANO (for obvious reasons her last name is never mentioned, but her relationship to Nicoli is revealed in issue 4), TINA FOLEY, BILL SPENCER (the crew foreman). One of the construction boys is named CHARLIE, two of the thugs are named ANGELO and LENNY, the casino bartender is named JOSEPH. 

Captain America What Price Glory #3 (May 2003) 

Pages 1-22: 

This issue picks up immediately from last issue. Spano is reading a newspaper on page one in which the letters Satur and the bottom loop of a possible "d" can he seen at the top of the page, so this is probably Saturday, which would make the day Steve arrived in Vegas a Thrusday. By the way according to the paper, the weather for the day will be High 108, Low 84 

Spano is on his yacht reading about Caps activities when he hears about the accident. Meanwhile, Steve has jumped in the water, swam out, and resuced Pasha. They are hauled aboard the yacht at gunpoint, but when she explains that Steve saved her Spano invities him to stay for dinner. In order to gauge how much he can trust Steve, Spano brings him below decks and shows him that they have Tina captured and strung up. Steve says, Sorry. Never saw her before. As they return to the deck, a gunshot rings out behind them! 

Over dinner, Spano obliquely mentions the troubles hes having with Cap, and suggests that he would like Steve to serve as Pashas bodyguard. Suddenly Tina comes above decks, and Spano admits his trick to test Steves trustworthiness (Steve seems unsurprised that Tina is alive, but I have no idea why. I cant figure out how he knew that she wouldnt really be killed). Steve mentions that the thug who was supposedly torturing Tina was the same one they arrested in Steves hotel room two nights ago. 

Spano invites Steve to sleep over on the yacht. From his cabin, Steve phones Kate back in Brooklyn (where it is 2 am), from whom he seeks advice because he is uncomfortable lying to Pasha and he doesnt want to hurt her. Kate insists that its in Pashas own best interest for him to get her out of there, regardless of what he has to tell her to convince her to leave. 

The call is interrupted by Pasha knocking on his cabin door. She basically lays her cards on the table by asking if he would commit to her if she were to run off with him. She fears Spano would hunt them down, and Steve encourages her to fight Spano by telling him how the crime boss intends to take over Vegas. Pasha explains Spanos backstory: how he grew up watching gangster movies which taught him everything he needed to know He built up a gang, and when the Vegas mafia (she doesnt say maggia, unfortunately) crumbled he moved in to fill the void and used threats and intimidation to succeed. Spano is half-owner of the Cap theme park (he owns the Red Skull half), but if he can cause the owners of the other half to miss the deadline for the parks completion, all rights revert to him. She knows that Spano plans to plant some explosives, but the location can only be found in his journal. 

Cap busts into the yachts wheelhouse and finds the journal. He races to the park, and begins laying into the thugs playing poker in a half-constructed building on the grounds. Unfortunately he is felled by a rocket launcher(!) and he is tied to the foot of the gigantic Captain America statue, which will slay him when it is blown up. 

Characters appearing: CAPTAIN AMERICA, NICOLI SPANO, PASHA SPANO, TINA FOLEY, KATE ?, two thugs on the yacht are CARLOS and SANCHEZ, the thug with the rocket launcher is SPIRO. 

Captain America: What Price Glory? #4 (May 2003) 

Pages 1-6 (late Saturday, early Sunday): 

In the middle of the night (again we see about a third of what appears to be a gigantic full moon), Spano catches Pasha packing. Suddenly they hear a terrible explosion. At the park, the thugs learn that Cap had moved the explosives before attacking, and so they have blown up the Red Skull statue instead of the Cap one! Cap slips his bonds in the confusion and defeats the thugs. 

Back in his room, Steve gets a call from Pasha where to meet, but she is acting on the instructions of Spano. 

Pages 7- 23 (Sunday): 

Steve and Pasha were set to meet after only 5 minutes, so it must be barely sunrise as Steve comes across a disguised Tina Foley on the pier. Suddenly Spano arrives with a couple of men, and they take a walk. Spano mentions looks to be a promising summer, Mr. Rogers. The best on Las Vegas records, which would seem to imply that this story takes place in the spring or early summer. Spano tells Steve he knows why hes here and who sent him. His soul would die it Steve takes Pasha to Frizini, and he tries to convince Steve that he will let Steve and Pasha be together as long as they stay around Vegas where Spano can be around them: promise not to take her from me altogether. what do you say? Spano gives Steve some plane tickets, hoping he will use them to take Pasha on a honeymoon to Jamaica rather than take her to New York and Frizini. It turns out the men with Spano are FBI agents (and associates of Tina) named Falco and Rutledge, who take Spano into custody. 

Steve meets Pasha at the airport and they fly to New York. She seems genuinely to think that they are going to be together, and feels betrayed when he brings her to Frizini. She tearfully tells Steve that Spano, not Frizini, is her father, and races out of the room. Frizini admits he lied to get Steves help, and Steve wont touch his dirty money. Out by the elevator, Steve admits to Pasha that he knew from near the beginning that Spano was her father, but he went ahead with his assignment anyway because of all the innocent lives Spano was destroying in Vegas. Pasha is hurt, and Steve tells her about a bench overlooking Brooklyn bridge where she can meet him later if she decides to forgive him. 

Steve goes to Sal and Kates house, where Sal is out. Steve tells Kate that Spano had the same picture on his yacht as Sals: they served together in the Gulf War. Kate admits that it was Spano who accidentally shot and paralyzed Sal, while they were drunk and celebrating. Kate manipulated Steve into meeting Frizini, which in turn got him put into Spanos path. A disappointed Steve feels that Kate has ruined their friendship with her lies. 

At about 4:50 pm (according to Steves wristwatch) he is waiting at the bench, but no Pasha. Instead Tina shows up, on leave (how she got back to New York so quick I have no idea). She mentions admiring the skyline, even though its changed. And Steve asks her to come look at the Twin Towers with him. Shes confused, but Steve takes her to the top of the Empire State Building and they look southwest to where the Towers once were, and use their imagination to see them again. (The sun appears to be setting in the south, whoops) 

Characters in this issue: CAPTAIN AMERICA, NICOLI SPANO, PASHA SPANO, TINA FOLEY, KATE ? (cant see her and Sals last name anywhere), CHARLES MEDFORD FRIZINI, FALCO, RUTLEDGE, JIMMY the baker.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2004 09:28 pm    
By Paul Bouricer [DIRECTOR]

Hey, John. Thanks for this synopsis of issues #2-4. So my initial hunch about a summer placement seems to be confirmed by an actual citation. We do have to deal with inconsistent lunar phases (there's a full moon in issue #1) and interesting temperature references ("a cold wind" in New York in issue #1, then the 78-degree reference and the high/ow of 108 and 84 in Las Vegas). 

Quick questions: 

Between which panels of issue #2, page 11 does the break to the next evening occur? 
On what page and panel of issue #2 does the cut to the 2 AM scene occur?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Aug 2004 03:52 am    
By John Simons

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quick questions: 

Between which panels of issue #2, page 11 does the break to the next evening occur? 
<<<


Between panels 1 and 2. 


Quote: 
>>>
On what page and panel of issue #2 does the cut to the 2 AM scene occur? 
<<<

oh! I guess that would be a more accurate beginning to Saturday, now wouldn't it?  

The 2 am scene begins on panel 1 of page 14.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Aug 2004 07:03 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, John. One more quick question: in issue #3, Steve phones Kate in Brooklyn, where it's 2 AM; what point in issue #3 would be a good spot for midnight EST to occur?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Aug 2004 01:54 am    
By John Simons

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Thanks, John. One more quick question: in issue #3, Steve phones Kate in Brooklyn, where it's 2 AM; what point in issue #3 would be a good spot for midnight EST to occur? 
<<<


EST? Not midnight where Steve is? Well, let's see. There's a three-hour time difference between Brooklyn and Vegas, so it's 11 pm Steve's time when he makes the call, minus 2 hours it would be 9 pm in Vegas when it's midnight in Brooklyn. 

So I guess I would say midnight EST happens between the time everyone has a late dinner on the yacht, and the scene where Steve phones Kate, so the break would be between pages 8 and 9.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Aug 2004 08:43 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Great. Thanks, John.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 42

Chronology Review for Punisher MAX #1-7 

Issue #8 came out just today, and I just got done reading it, and I will do a review for it eventually, but I promised I'd get this review to you, Paul, and I'm running behind, so here is the review for the first 7 issues. 

Initial comments: Garth Ennis leaves the dark comedy behind, but increases the violence and gore to maximum levels. This isn't your Daddy's Punisher! This volume of Punisher is going to have little impact on the rest of the Marvel universe. There will not be any appearances by other superheroes, (for now anyway) and the Punisher might as well exist in his own little dimension. 

While we're at it, let's open up for discussion whether or not this new Punisher series is truly canon. Maybe we can settle this once and for all. 
I for one don't see enough evidence to rule it out, (though there is questionable stuff, like Micro's unexplained return from the dead. But lots of characters return from the dead, and a good percentage of those don't get explained either). 

Punisher #1 
"In the Beginning pt. 1" 
written by Garth Ennis 
drawn by Lewis Larosa 

Appearances: The Punisher, Micro, New Characters: O'Brien, William Roth, Don Massimo Cesare, Robert Bethel. 

Please note: this storyline has all the characters of this arc going by their last name, like (Bethel and OBrien), or by their nickname, (like Pittsy or Ink) but they do let slip the full names for some of these characters as the storyline goes on. I bring that up to point out why some of the characters in the Appearances section will have full names listed, while others have just their nickname or last name. 

Synopsis: ENTIRE ISSUE OCCURS OVER THE COURSE OF ONE DAY. 

Pages 1 and 2: Frank stands over the graves of his family. He's making his annual pilgramage to their gravesite, on what I think we're supposed to believe is the anniversary of their death, so many years ago... 

pg. 3-5: As Frank's narration goes on, we see Flashback images of Frank's family dying or dead on the ground. The depictions are a bit off from what we've seen in the past, in stories like "Punisher: Year One" The narration says it all, so I'll just post it in it's entirety here. This is what we read on pages 2 thru 5: 

"They hated that old man so much they shot him through my family. The world went crazy on a summer's day in Central Park, in the time before uzis and berettas, before nine millimeter popguns ruled the streets. 

It was a Thompson, like the ones our fathers carried, and I recognized it's rattle even as it's big, man-stopping forty-fives punched blood and breath from my lungs. I hit the ground beside my daughter. She'd been gutshot, badly, and when she saw the things that boiled and wriggled from her belly the expression on her face was not a little girl's. 

My wife bled out later on the operating table, her heart a gaping hole her life drained through. Whenever I get careless, that yearning in her eyes creeps up and brings me to my knees. Right then the old man's soldiers started shooting back. My son dropped wordlessly, without a mark on him. I took a breath that cut like glass, spat blood, rose to my knees, picked up the boy and searched in vain for entry wounds. 

The bullet had entered through his open mouth. 

That was our picnic in the park." 

pg. 6-7: Frank leaves the graveyard and goes back to his latest dwelling place, which is stocked to the max with guns and weapons. We see Frank getting armed, and preparing to go out and kill. 

pg. 8: As Frank leaves in a van, we see two people watching him from down the street. These two figures are O'Brien and Roth, who are part of a CIA cell that is seeking to capture the Punisher. 

pg. 9-18: Cut to that evening. Punisher goes out to a mobster's mansion. Today is the 100th birthday for Don Massimo Cesare, a senile old mobster. A bunch of mobsters from several of the East Coast crime families have sent representatives out to pay their respects. Frank just walks on in through the front door and kills the old Don right before every ones eyes. He then walks out, and after the mobsters recover from the shock of it all, they all come pouring out of the mansion, pulling out guns to kill the Punisher. But he's waiting for them, and with a combination of machine gun fire and explosives, decimates the entire group, killing the majority of them. 

He then up and leaves the scene... 

pg. 19-22: And at the exact same time, we cut to a hotel room in downtown New York, where on surveliance monitors, CIA agents are watching the Punisher do his work on the mobsters. This CIA cell is under the command of a Mr. Bethel, who hopes to capture the Punisher. O'Brien and Roth have arrived back at this location, (which is their makeshift base) and they are monitoring the Punisher's activities by means of NASA satelite imagery. Mr. Bethel goes into another room and talks to Micro, who is apparently alive and well. Micro told them that Frank would be making the visit to the graveyard, but warns them to stop surveiling Frank. He says the opportunity to capture Frank will come soon... 

References: 

The first thing to note is the passage of time in the Marvel Universe. Right there on page 1, we see the tombstone for Frank's family, which reads as follows: 

"Maria Elizabeth Castle 
1948-1976 

Lisa Castle 
1967-1976 

Frank David Castle 
1971-1976" 

So the massacre of his family, (according to Ennis) happened in 1976. Which is interesting, because didn't the Punisher debut in 1972? If he was going for real world authenticity, shouldn't the massacre have accured in 1971 or earlier? But anyway, on Page 8, O'Brien notes "he's in great shape for a guy his age". So Frank's supposedly getting up there in age, according to Ennis. Indeed, if this is supposed to be 2004, then almost 30 years have passed since his family was killed! So the old question comes back to me: was Frank's family killed before or after the Fantastic Four debuted in FF#1? All of this isn't really relevant, as these can be ruled off as "topical references" but they are interesting to note. 

Now as has been pointed out, this is not the name of Frank's daughter that's been used in the past. Could it be an editor slip up? Could it be that Garth Ennis just doesn't care? Who knows? 

On page 3, as noted above in Frank's narration, the death of his family occured on "a summer's day in Central Park". Well, if this is really the anniversary, (though maybe it's not) then this storyline takes place in the summer. But the trees in the graveyard on page 2 have no leaves...however the grass is green and the trees are blooming in the scene at the birthday party for Don Cesare, (and throughout the rest of the arc). 

On page 21, Micro says that Frank makes the visit to his family's tombstone "once a year". Maybe Frank goes there on the anniversary of their death, (though maybe not). I dunno, the more I think about it, since it doesn't clearly say "It's the anniversary of their deaths." I suppose you COULD, (if you wanted to) rationalize it as being a random date he picked out to go visit them every year. Maybe it's the anniversary of when he declared his war on crime, (he didn't transform into the Punisher instantly after his family died, after all). Maybe it's his wedding anniversary. Who knows? 

Punisher #2 
"In the Beginning pt. 2" 
written by Garth Ennis 
drawn by Lewis Larosa 

Appearances: The Punisher, Micro, O'Brien, William Roth, Robert Bethel, New characters: Nadine, (a hooker and occasional contact for Frank), Nicolas Nicky Cavella, Carmine Pittsy Gazzera, Ink, Larry Barucci. 

Synopsis: ALL EVENTS IN THIS ISSUE HAPPEN OVER THE COURSE OF ONE DAY. 

Pg.1 to 4: ITS NOW 5 DAYS LATER SINCE THE END OF LAST ISSUE. ITS PROBABLY WEDNESDAY OR THURSDAY. Many of the remaining mobsters are attending the funeral for Don Cesare. As the mourners start to go back to their cars, some of the remaining high ranking mobsters begin discussing ways to deal with the Punisher. They dont get too far though, when a van drives by and from inside, the Punisher fires a bazooka, blowing them to pieces. The Punisher then drives off. 

Pg. 5-9: Cut to a short time later. The funeral massacre is all over the news, and the CIA cell is watching it all from their hotel room. Bethel and Roth are aghast at the audacity of the Punisher, that hed hit a funeral. Micro says thats what Frank does: keeps the pressure on the mobsters. Roth starts mocking Micro, complaining that Micro acts like he knows everything about the Punisher. Micro gets in Roths face and puts him in his place, and tells Mr. Bethel that its time to make their move against Frank. Theyll go after him tonight. 

Pg. 10-12: Cut to later. The Punisher is sitting on a bench on a sidewalk talking to a hooker. Shes apparently one of his contacts on the comings and goings in the mafia. Frank notices that one of her fellow hookers is real young, (probably still a teenager), and Frank asks if the local pimp has got her hooked on any drugs. He then goes over and promptly kills the pimp, and tells his contact to put the underage girl on a bus back to her hometown. He also tells her to let the next pimp know not to take on any underage girls, and then walks off. 

Pg. 13-17: Meanwhile, in a restaurant across town, Larry, (a low ranking mobster) is meeting with Nick Cavella, and his two right hand thugs, Ink and Pittsy. Nick (Nicky)and his two friends are mobsters that were exiled from the New York Mafia scene some 15 years ago, for performing acts that were unspeakably violent. These three are more along the lines of serial killers than regular mafia thugs. Larry says he called them down from Boston, (which is where they were exiled to) to have Nicky take over as leader since there is a shortage of bosses, (cause the Punisher killed most of them). They begin plotting what to do with the Punisher 

Pg. 18-22: Cut to later that night. Frank stocks up on weaponry, and figures its a good night to go out hunting for more thugs. He leaves his hideout, and outside as he walks down the street, we see inside a nearby van the figures of Mr. Bethel, OBrien, Roth, Micro, and a whole squadron of Green Beret type figures. Theyre there to make their move against Frank. Micro jumps out of the van after Frank walks by, calls out his hame. Frank spins around, and Micro shoots him with a shotgun, knocking Frank to the ground. Micro then stands over Frank, and appears to shoot him in the face 

References: 

Pg. 6: Roth mentions in his confrontation with Micro that theyve known where the Punisher is for 5 days, and havent done anything. So its 5 days after Issue #1. 

Pg.7: Micro tells Roth, I worked with Frank Castle for ten years. I helped him kill over eight hundred people. 

Now I believe that matches the passage of time in real life. Wasnt Micro with Frank from the mid 80s to the mid 90s? Id love for someone to actually count how many people Frank killed in all issues with Micro, to see if it totals over 800 kills. 

Pg. 10: Going by the dialogue on this page, this is where I concluded its Wednesday or Thursday. The hooker Frank is talking to talks about the hit on the birthday party from issue #1, referring to it as that shit you pulled last week. If she had said, that shit you pulled earlier this week then Id say this day is Friday or Saturday. And then she goes on to talk about how all the mafia is in hiding, bunkered down. She brings up her pimp, who usually has a higher up mafia figure come by every Tuesday, regular as clockwork to collect dues from the pimp. But she says the mafia guy didnt stop by this week. So its after Tuesday, (and thus, I feel its probably Wednesday or possibly Thursday). 


Pg. 14: Another reference to last week. At the meeting between Larry and Nicky, Pittsy, and Ink, Larry refers to the hit on the birthday party as having happened last week. 


Punisher #3 
"In the Beginning pt. 3" 
written by Garth Ennis 
drawn by Lewis Larosa 

Appearances: The Punisher, Micro, O'Brien, William Roth, Robert Bethel, Nicolas Nicky Cavella, Carmine Pittsy Gazzera, Ink, Larry Barucci, New Character: Walter Krause, (an old man who witnessed the Punisher's 'arrest'). 

Synopsis: IT'S THE NEXT DAY AFTER LAST ISSUE. ALL EVENTS OF THIS ISSUE HAPPEN ON THE SAME DAY. 


I got to thinking: Page numbers don't matter, because all events happen on the same day... 

Larry goes to the hospital to tell one of his fellow mobsters, (named Jackie, who's apparently one of the last living mob bosses to survive the birthday massacre) that he's bringing in Nicky Cavella from Boston to take care of the Punisher. Jackie tells Larry to go tell Nick to go home, (he doesn't want those psychopaths running around). So Larry does just that, but a few seconds after Larry leaves the room, in walks Ink and Pittsy, who murder Jackie. 

Outside in the hospital hallway, Nicky is watching a TV monitor set up for viewing in the hospital. The news is running a story saying the N.Y. police apprehended the Punisher last night. The CIA cell fed the police this line, telling them to feed it to the Media, (and the Police dept. does as told, because it comes from the Pentagon). Nick is suspicious, and has Larry call up a police officer who's on the mafia payroll, to see what's REALLY going on. Later on, Larry gets confirmation from his cop on the payroll that they DID NOT arrest the Punisher. The police were told to tell that to the media. So Nick and Larry begin to wonder what's REALLY going on, and decide to go have a talk with an old man who showed up on the news, saying he witnessed the Punisher's arrest... 

Meanwhile, at the CIA cell's hotel room, Micro is having a one sided conversation with Frank in a private room. Micro explains he had to hit Frank with 7 rounds of stun bullets to knock Frank out, (so he DID shoot him at the end of last issue. Ouch.) Micro is trying to convince Frank that this one man war on crime has been on is wrong, that it's nothing more than cold blooded murder. Micro shows pictures of Frank's dead family to him, to try and get him to open up. Micro says he's seen the error of his ways, and that's why he had to 'quit the game'. He says he came to the realization that "as long as people want the things the law forbids them having, nothing you or I or anyone can do will make a difference." 

Outside the private room where Micro is 'interrogating' Frank, O'Brien is listening in on Micro, while Roth and Bethel watch the news. The media has found a 90 year old man named Walter Krause, who witnessed the last moments of the Punisher's arrest, and saw him being loaded into the back of the CIA's van, (the old man thinks it was the police, just as the NYPD is reporting). Bethel tells Roth to go and have a word with Mr. Krause, not to kill him, but to tell him it's not wise to talk to the media... 

So Roth goes downtown to Mr. Krause's home. He knocks on the door, and tries to tell Mr. Krause to let him in, so they can talk, but Mr. Krause is somewhat wary. Just then, Nick, Pitsy and Ink step up behind Roth, and drag him away from the door. Nick tells the old man not to worry, and that this guy won't bother him any more. Pulling Roth's CIA badge off of him, the three thugs decide they can get some useful info out of Roth. The drag poor Roth out to Larry's car, and begin an intense interrogation, about where the CIA is keeping the Punisher, and what the CIA wants with him... 

Frank finally talks to Micro, telling him to put the pictures of his dead family away, "or I guarantee you'll have to kill me." So Micro does. 

O'Brien finally hears the Punisher's voice, and while she's impressed, she's suddenly fearful. She tells Bethel that maybe trying to recruit the Punisher wasn't such a good idea after all. Bethel scoffs, and tells O'Brien to go downtown, to see what's holding up Roth, (who should've been back by now). 

Meanwhile, inside the interrogation room, Micro says he's about to make Frank a proposition, an offer for him to leave the Punisher behind forever... 

References: 

Pg. 12: FLASHBACK: Micro makes a passing comment about his son dying, and that's why he joined Frank's war on crime, and we see a brief panel flashback: a picture of Micro standing over the body of his son in the morgue, (his son looks like a teenager or a full grown young man). I don't know if this scene has been shown before. Apparently Micro was called down to the morgue to identify his son's body. This one panel scene is panel 4 of page 12, (5 panels total). 

pg. 13: As Micro continues to talk to Frank, Micro brings up Frank's past in Vietnam. Micro says the following: "You kill because you like it, Frank. Maybe it was in you all along, but...I believe you got a taste for it in Vietnam. I know all about that scout-sniping work on your second tour. I know SOMETHING happened on your third. You see, I believe some...darkness...reached out to you, Frank. And I believe you told it yes." 

And we see a vague flashback, (sorta) of Frank standing on top of a bunch of corpses, the Punisher's skull symbol behind him. This 'flashback' (if it constitutes one) is the 2nd panel of page 13, (there's only 2 panels). I believe this picture and the words spoken by Micro are a direct reference to the events of the Punisher: BORN miniseries that came out last year. 

Other than that, there's no other references, besides the TV reporting that the 'arrest' of the Punisher happened last night... 

Punisher #4 
"In the Beginning pt. 4" 
written by Garth Ennis 
drawn by Lewis Larosa 

Appearances: The Punisher, Micro, O'Brien, William Roth, Robert Bethel, Nicolas Nicky Cavella, Carmine Pittsy Gazzera, Ink, Larry Barruci, Walter Krause, New Character: Bob Garrett. 

Synopsis: CONTINUES RIGHT WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE. 

Nicky, Pittsy, and Ink, (having just finished up their interrogation of Roth) decide to head over to the hotel where the CIA is holding the Punisher. Larry is disgusted at what all they did to Roth, and is starting to have second thoughts about calling these three in to help 

Meanwhile, inside the interrogation room, Micro offers Frank the chance to do some real justice in the world. "How would you like to hunt Osama Bin Laden?" he says. Micro explains the CIA wants to recruit Frank as a top level assasin, to go out and kill the most evil men in the world. Micro wants Frank to give up this small time crap of hunting mafia goons, and go back to working for the USA. Frank turns the offer down, (to put it mildly). He says he refuses to work for the govt. anymore, (saying he had enough of that in Vietnam). 

Meanwhile, O'Brien goes and interviews old Walter Krause, and finds out about three men dragging Roth off. Just then, Roth reappears, blood all over his pants and holding a paper cup (which contain Roth's manly vitals...) O'Brien whisks him off to the hospital, and on the way there, calls up Bethel, warning him that they're about to be hit by someone who's after the Punisher. Bethel tells her to drop off Roth and to get her butt back to the hotel. Nicky, Larry, Pittsy, and Ink arrive at the hotel... 

Bethel starts to scramble his CIA commandoes, who are waiting in the basement for orders from Bethel to move out. They start to head up the elevator, but Ink sabotages the elevator, sending it plummeting back down to the basement, killing all the commandoes within. 

Meanwhile, Frank shares a story with Micro, which I'll detail in the references section below... 

Just then, Nick, Pittsy, and Ink come bursting in through the door to Bethel's room. They shoot Bethel in the knee caps and order all of the rest of the operatives in the room not to move, (these are the techno spooks who were doing the work of tapping into NASA satellites for Bethel). While Larry holds a gun on them, the other three burst into the room where Micro and the Punisher are, and prepare to shoot Frank... 

References: 

Okay, here's the story Frank shares with Micro. As he tells it, we see it unfold in flashback, as we cut back and forth between the events of the flashback and back to the interrogation room. The scenes of flashback are shown on pg. 16, panels 4 and 5, (5 panels total) page 17, (all 6 panels), page 18, panels 1 thru 4, (5 panels total), and page 19, panels 1 and 3, (5 panels total). 

At any rate, Frank tells Micro about a nieghbor named Bob Garrett, who used to live next door to Frank back when his family was still alive. A few months after his family was murdered, before Frank became the Punisher, Bob came knocking on the door, a bottle of beer in hand, coming to check up on how Frank was doing. So they sat around and talked, and Bob expressed his sympathies for Frank, but Bob then goes on to tell Frank about how he and his wife are seperated, because Bob has found a new love interest at his workplace. Bob smiles about it all, happy that he's found a new fling, but Frank is suddenly irked. He asks how Bob's wife is doing, and Bob says she's staying with her mother, and is pretty shook up, but says these things happen. Frank responds by saying, "I lost my wife. And you threw yours away like she was nothing." 

To which Bob starts to apologize, but Frank says, "Run." We then see a bloodied and broken Bob Garrett lying on the front yard of Frank's house, the other neighbors trying to restrain Frank. Frank tells Micro, "In his heart, he knew it was wrong. But it was what he wanted. So he went ahead and did it, and hoped everything would work out all right. That's why he deserved to be punished." 

Micro asks why Frank is telling this story to him, but Frank changes subjects, asking where Bethell gets his funding from. But just then, Nicky, Ink, and Pittsy break in... 

Punisher #5 
"In the Beginning pt. 5" 
written by Garth Ennis 
drawn by Lewis Larosa 

Appearances: The Punisher, Micro, O'Brien, Robert Bethel, Nicolas Nicky Cavella, Carmine Pittsy Gazzera, Ink, Larry Barruci. 

Synopsis: CONTINUES RIGHT WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE. THIS ISSUE IS DIVIDED OVER TWO DAYS, (AS EXPLAINED BELOW). 

Pg. 1-12: Nicky, Pittsy, and Ink walk into the room Micro and Frank are in, and Nicky fires on Micro, dropping him to the ground, (they think Micros dead, but hes wearing a bullet proof vest). Nicky raises a gun to the head of the Punisher and fires, but at that very instant, Frank jerks his head forward and bites Nicks fingers, causing the gunshot to skim over Franks head! 

At that instant, OBrien bursts into the room, (having dropped off Roth at the hospital) with a machine gun in her hand. She starts firing at Ink and Pittsy, killing Ink. In the ensuing shootout, while Nicky and Pittsy wound OBrien, dropping her to the floor, Micro unchains Frank, who proceeds to stomp the asses of Pittsy and Nicky. Those two flee the scene, grabbing Larry, (whos done nothing but cower on the floor the entire fight) and run out of the hotel. Frank grabs Micro and flees the scene himself. 

Pg. 13-22: Micro guides Frank, (theyre in Micros car) to a warehouse in the Bronx, where Micro has been storing weapons, from one of the last missions Micro and Frank worked on together years ago. Micro decides to answer Franks earlier question about where Bethel gets his money: 

Turns out Bethel didnt have the funding needed to do what he was assigned to do: Find top dollar assassins. So Micro reveals Bethel was a CIA operative in Afganistan back in 2001, and he set up a heroin smuggling operation to bring the drugs over to the USA, for big bucks. Micro says Bethel found him a little while back, and Bethel wanted to hire Frank. Micro says he figured this was a good opportunity to try and redeem Frank. Frank tells Micro that all hes done is side with the enemy. 

Back at the hotel room, Bethels CIA operation is in shambles. In anger, he fires OBrien, (who saved his ass) and phones in to the Pentagon to have a helicopter come pick him up. He has a bug activated to track Micro, (its planted in Micros cellphone), and he intends to finish this, either by getting the Punisher to work for him, or to kill him. 

Speaking of finishing things off: the mobsters regroup at Larrys house, having a mob doctor fix up the wounded Nicky and Pittsy and best he can. Frank (using Micros cellphone) calls up the mobsters home and speaks to Nicky. Nicky asks where Frank got this number, to which Frank replies, I recognized Larry Barucci pissing his pants on the floor back there. Got the number last year when I bugged his house. Frank challenges Nicky to send all of the mafia troops down to the warehouse, so they can finish this. To which Nicky is more than happy to comply, figuring theyll whack the Punisher 

After getting off the phone, Frank points out to Micro that his cellphone has been bugged. They both realize the CIA will be on their way as well. Good, Frank says. Micro asks why Frank had told him the story about the neighbor Bob Garrett. Frank responds, You missed part of it. I warned him first. I told him to run because I knew what I was going to do to him. Micro wonders why that applies to him, till Frank says, Run. Micro pauses in fear, but says he wont run. He doesnt want Frank to face all the mobsters alone. Frank says he cant be redeemed, and Micro should stop trying, but Micro chooses to stay and fight by his side. 

Together again, for now 

References: 

Pg. 13: As they arrive at the storage house, Frank asks when Micro set this place up. Micro says, ninety-six, just before I left town. Wasnt 96 the real life year when they killed Micro in the comics? 

Its comments like this, along with comments about he quit the game, which lead me to believe were supposed to believe Micro faked his death. 

Theres a break inbetween two days here in this issue: The scenes in the first half of this issue continue from the last couple of issues, and the attack on the hotel room happened at night. On pages 11 and 12, Frank, Micro, and the mobsters are fleeing the scene, and its nighttime outside. On pages 13, we see Frank and Micro pulling into the warehouse, and its dawn outside. I believe the break in between the two days occurs there. The rest of the scenes take place in daylight hours. 

Punisher #6 
"In the Beginning pt. 6" 
written by Garth Ennis 
drawn by Lewis Larosa 

Appearances: The Punisher, Micro, Robert Bethel, Nicolas Nicky Cavella, Carmine Pittsy Gazzera, Larry Barruci. 

Synopsis: CONTINUES A SHORT TIME LATER FROM RIGHT WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE. 

This is the knock down, blow out, action conclusion. Instead of detailing the whole battle, lets just skip to the results: Punisher kills Pittsy and Larry, but Nicky manages to escape. He hijacks a police car and flees the scene. (A Punisher villain actually living past the end of the story arc? This is unprecedented for a Ennis storyline. It can only mean hell be back at a later date). Bethel arrived in a CIA helicopter, but starting firing on the mobsters without authorization from the Pentagon, (hes a little crazy by this point) so the other CIA operatives in the chopper get permission from higher up to get rid of Bethel, so they push him out the chopper and to his death. 

And thus, after the battles over, Punisher goes and has one last talk with the wounded Micro, (theyre both wounded pretty bad at this point). Micro starts to get this creepy feeling about why Franks just standing there over him, (like the Punisher is ready to pass judgement) so Micro tries to reason with Frank, but Frank just tells him, We both of us know what heroin does. Micro was taking money from Bethel, and Bethel got his money through heroin, so Franks saying Micros just as guilty. Micro starts to plead, but Frank says, You shouldve run. You really going to beg? So Micro lowers his head in defeat. And the Punisher blows Micros head off. The End. 

References: 

On page 21, Frank tells Micro, Hadnt seen you in eight years. Thats definently a match to real time, but with the passage of time being slower in the Marvel Universe, I dont know if thats really how long its been. 


Punisher #7 
"Kitchen Irish Pt. 1" 
written by Garth Ennis 
drawn by Leandro Fernandez 


Initial comments: Ennis returns to his Irish roots for this storyline. Only the first issue of this arc is out so far, but Ill go ahead and do a review for it. 

Appearances: The Punisher, New Characters: Finn Cooley, Peter Cooley, Michael Morrison, Tommy Toner, Napper French, Billy, (Nappers nephew), Maginty. 

Synopsis: 

Pgs. 1-11: Frank is walking through the streets of Hell's Kitchen, when he decides to stop for a bite to eat at a small little restaurant. He's about to begin staking out the bar across the street, (he's heard of some shady activity going on there). But he's not there too long before a bomb tears through the bar across the street, (called the 'Kerry Castle'). Frank barely survives the explosion, (while most everyone around him is butchered from the shockwave and exploding glass and debris). In the aftermath, Frank picks himself up off the floor, and as the paramedics arrive, Frank actually decides to help out with the wounded, performing CPR, stopping bloodflow, that sort of thing. He complains about with bombs, there's no one around to kill afterwords, so he's resorting to his old training, (he's done this emergency treatment stuff before, back in Vietnam). 

Later on, he's still sticking around the scene of the blast, (everyone's too busy to recognize he's the Punisher, they're too busy dealing with the bomb fallout). Frank listens in on two police officers, who conclude that going by the initial evidence, the IRA (Irish Republican Army) just set off a bomb in New York City. 

Pgs. 12-22: THE NEXT DAY. We cut to a meeting going on between three Irish terrorists, Finn Cooley, Peter Cooley, (Finn's younger nephew) and Michael Morrison. They had set up the bomb at the Kerry Castle, but had meant for it to go off at 4 am in the morning, when a bunch of Irish gangsters and terrorists were supposed to meet there, for some sort of declaration of peace between the warring gangsters. The bomb went off prematurely, thus killing innocent civilians in the middle of the day. Finn has a badly damaged face from a bomb blast that went off prematurely some time back, (another horribly grotesque figure created by Ennis; this is something he seems to specialize in). Michael complains that their plans are all going wrong, but Finn puts him in his place. 

Meanwhile, the Punisher has resumed staking out the remains of the Kerry Castle. He spots Tommy Toner (an Irish gangster) and his men staking out the place as well. Tommy is the owner of the place, (the Kerry Castle was a meeting place for Irish gangsters) and he wants to know who's responsible for blowing up his bar. Punisher contemplates whacking him, but just then, a van pulls up, and the men inside kill Tommy's bodyguards, and drive off with Tommy. Punisher's like, "Well, this is an interesting development". 

We cut to a different scene. An old man named Napper French is watching over his grandson Billy, as the boy plays in the park in a local playground. Napper is confronted by a big black man (looks like Lenny Kravits on steroids) who calls himself Maginty, and who says he wants to hire Napper. Napper was apparently a hitman for an Irish gangster well over 30 years ago, and Napper has a reputation as being famous for how he dismembered corpses. Napper tells Maginty he doesn't work for anyone anymore, but Maginty then points to a van in the corner. Napper looks to it to find a thug is holding his grandson inside the van, a knife to the boy's throat. Napper agrees to do whatever Maginty wants, but asks who he is. Maginty explains he's Irish too, just like Napper, and fresh from Dublin. 

That's how it ends. Frank's apparently stumbled smack dab into the middle of an Irish gang war. 

References: 

First, some time has to have passed since the last arc. Punisher was pretty badly wounded by the end of that arc, and in this issue, (at the start of it anyway) he doesnt appear wounded at all. 

Also, the weather in this issue: On page one, the figures on the street are wearing coats, and the wind is blowing through the streets. It appears a bit nippy outside. In the scenes in the park towards the end of the issue, there are leaves on the ground, and the trees are bare, and many figures are wearing coats. Napper French is wearing a scarf. Yes, all signs point to it being Autumn outside, (or possibly winter). So far anyway... 

Right on page 1 and 2, Frank narrates to us, They call Hells Kitchen Clinton these days. I dont know who they think theyre kidding. Price the locals out. Let them rot in Queens or Jersey. Build Yuppie condos, clubs and gyms. A gallery or two. An internet caf. Open coffee shops in shells of ancient sports bars, where not so long ago, the westies cut each other up with razors. Give the neighborhood to joggers; these twenty blocks that drank and fought and fucked their way to New York City legend. Pretend it never happened. Deny, Deny, Deny. Just dont be surprised when the past creeps up and bites you in the ass, the way it always does. 

And thats when the bomb goes off. But could these references to the renovating of Hells Kitchen be a reference to the events of the last year in Daredevil? Wherein Matt Murdock declared himself the new Kingpin, and cleaned up the streets of the Kitchen? 

Heres something to think about in advance, before this arc ends: Matt Murdock and Daredevil wont appear in this arc, (if Enniss line about not using any superheroes in this new MAX series). Yet this entire arc is set to take place in the Kitchen, which is DDs territory. Perhaps we could rationalize DD not appearing because this is set during the period in which Matt isnt wearing the DD costume, (before the Yakuza storyline in DD)? 

Of course, we may end up rationalizing this needs to take place after the Yakuza storyline. Cause its hard to imagine a bomb going off in the Kitchen, and Matt Murdock not doing anything about it. Im saying if this event occurred before the Yakuza incident, then maybe that wouldve been the trigger which brought Matt out of seclusion and back into the DD costume.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jul 2004 07:29 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
So the massacre of his family, (according to Ennis) happened in 1976. Which is interesting, because didn't the Punisher debut in 1972? If he was going for real world authenticity, shouldn't the massacre have accured in 1971 or earlier? But anyway, on Page 8, O'Brien notes "he's in great shape for a guy his age". So Frank's supposedly getting up there in age, according to Ennis. Indeed, if this is supposed to be 2004, then almost 30 years have passed since his family was killed! So the old question comes back to me: was Frank's family killed before or after the Fantastic Four debuted in FF#1? All of this isn't really relevant, as these can be ruled off as "topical references" but they are interesting to note. 
<<< 

Interesting indeed. Usually, when past dates are noted in this context, it's a reference point to the number of years before the reader's vantage point. So I find it intriguing that 28 years are supposed to have passed since the Castle Family massacre. This lends some credence to believing that more than ten or twelve years have passed since FF 1. But even going by my radical theory that 21 years have passed since FF 1, that means that Castle's family were killed seven years before that. That's really not likely. Castle's wife's birth year is interesting, too. If Frank is the same age, that means he's 56! If 21 years have passed since FF 1 and FF 1 actually occurred ca. 1961 in the MU, then Frank would be 34 now. But yes, we really are talking about topical references here. 


Quote: 
>>>
On page 3, as noted above in Frank's narration, the death of his family occured on "a summer's day in Central Park". Well, if this is really the anniversary, (though maybe it's not) then this storyline takes place in the summer. But the trees in the graveyard on page 2 have no leaves...however the grass is green and the trees are blooming in the scene at the birthday party for Don Cesare, (and throughout the rest of the arc). On page 21, Micro says that Frank makes the visit to his family's tombstone "once a year". Maybe Frank goes there on the anniversary of their death, (though maybe not). I dunno, the more I think about it, since it doesn't clearly say "It's the anniversary of their deaths." I suppose you COULD, (if you wanted to) rationalize it as being a random date he picked out to go visit them every year. Maybe it's the anniversary of when he declared his war on crime, (he didn't transform into the Punisher instantly after his family died, after all). Maybe it's his wedding anniversary. Who knows?  
<<<


Here's another way to approach this. In what other issues do we see Frank visiting his family's graves? Can these visits actually be tied to a single day of the year? I'd be surprised if this actually works.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Jul 2004 01:10 am    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

I'd be shocked if that worked. But I honestly don't recall the last time we saw depicted in an issue Frank visiting the grave of his family. Frank's not like Peter Parker, who we see depicted standing in a graveyard every few issues or so: I get the feeling Frank visiting his family's grave is not something that's depicted in comics too often. 

I don't have my Punisher: Year One issues out, (or any other classic issues which depict the murder of Frank's family). Did the murder of the Castle family happen in the summer time? I know we got some Punisher experts on this board, how about a hand? 

And I do know that the depiction of how the family was murdered as written here is different then other versions. This version says Frank's wife survived till she got to the ER, and that only one bullet struck his son: inside the boy's mouth. Well, I bet we can simply chalk this up to Frank's selective memory, (it's 28 years in the past, remember?)  

I saw one more clue in Issue 8 (which came out yesterday) which lends credit to this volume of Punisher being canon. Yorkie Mitchell, the MI6 (British Secret Service) character who was in Frank's unit in Vietnam, stops by to pay Frank a visit in that issue. Yorkie last appeared in the last volume of Punisher, (written by Garth Ennis) in issue 17 I believe, wherein Frank paid a visit to Belfast. 

Well, the fact that he's stopping by to visit Frank AGAIN, this looks like continuity to me: a continuation of events from the last volume, (which we do consider canon)...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 02 Jul 2004 07:55 am    Post subject: PYO indicates that it took place after FF#1
By Enda80

The Punisher Year One series retcons it to be at a point not too far in the past from his first appearance in ASM 129, due to appearances by various modern era characters. 

In ASM 202, Castle did make a statement that he had been fighting crime for ten years. The best way to reconcile this is to say that this included his time in the military, where, as seen in The 'Nam#67-69, he defeated a rogue officer involved in crime.

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Posted: 02 Jul 2004 10:12 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Kevin W wrote: 
>>>
Well, the fact that he's stopping by to visit Frank AGAIN, this looks like continuity to me: a continuation of events from the last volume, (which we do consider canon)... 
<<<

I agree - now that we're seeing recurring characters picking up from the previous story, I think it's pretty clear that (whatever the anomalous position of Microchip) this should still be treated as canon. 

I think it's been previously noted that, for what it's worth, the Marvel Knights Encyclopaedia acknowledges Microchip as returning from the dead. So that's an official Marvel source which is clearly treating Punisher Max as canon.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 02 Jul 2004 01:41 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Here's another way to approach this. In what other issues do we see Frank visiting his family's graves? Can these visits actually be tied to a single day of the year? I'd be surprised if this actually works. 
<<<

I'd suggest taking a look at Punisher War Journal #3. As I remember, Frank celebrates the anniversary of something by flying a kite in Central Park. I don't remember the occassion, but that's the only remembrance I can recall.

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Posted: 03 Jul 2004 08:26 pm    Post subject: Punisher War Journal 81
By Marvel Jedi

at the end micro's body is never fully seen.
_________________
-snoogans!

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Posted: 03 Jul 2004 08:37 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Marvel Jedi, 

I've moved your posting to the most recent discussion on the subject of Microchip's status, because starting a new thread with your message would be...well...a little confusing. 


watching: there's something about mary

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Posted: 03 Jul 2004 10:19 pm    
By rhod

Dug out my old copies of War Journal to help : 
PWJ #1-3 is a continuous storyarc (reprinted as 'an eye for an eye' tpb). 

Part 1 is titled 'Sunday in the Park', don't know if this'll help with a calendar, probably not. 
At the end of PWJ 1/beginning of PWJ 2, Frank Castle is flying a kite in Central Park. A youth recognises him as having flown a kite in Central Park on the same day the previous year and deduces that this is Frank Castle, whose family was killed on this day. The boy himself is in the park to commemorate the anniversary of his fathers death, his father being the victim of the mob rubout that started the whole thing. This is a definite statement that the Punisher visits Central Park on this day. Would he visit the graveyard onthe same day? 

Further info on a specific date is sketchy at best- trees are green; Frank's son is shown in flashback wearing t-shirt and shorts suggesting Summer; Frank does comment though, when coming round after being knocked out, that 'it should be dark by now' as it is after 7pm (his watch actually reads 7.10)- anyone know what time of year the sun sets in New York this early? 

Also possibly helpful is a newspaper headline 'Canadian superhero team disbands'. One for Alpha Flight fans? 

PS I'm a bit spun out by the subject header 'pwj 81'. pwj ran for 80 issues?

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Posted: 04 Jul 2004 06:46 pm    
By Marvel Jedi

I meant 79, sorry. But in the middle of it MICRO is hit by a missile we see a sillouette of his body and frank talking and then the paramedics have micro coverd up on a gourney in the end. BODY NOT REVEALED MEANS CHARECTER IS ALIVE!
_________________
-snoogans!

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Posted: 15 Aug 2004 06:56 am    
By JLH

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
I don't have my Punisher: Year One issues out, (or any other classic issues which depict the murder of Frank's family). Did the murder of the Castle family happen in the summer time? 
<<<

According to a caption on page 2 of P:YO 1, over the scene of the Castle family massacre, "And the spring air is full of approaching rain..." 


Marvel Jedi wrote: 
>>>
BODY NOT REVEALED MEANS CHARECTER IS ALIVE! 
<<<


No, the rule is "No body = might not be dead". In this case, Microchip was burnt to a crisp. There was really nothing to show, other than charred flesh and bone. This was BEFORE Marvel Max, ya know. There was enough left for his Punisher replacement to ID him, and even Frank seemed to be pretty sure it was him lying there. 

But the story provides plenty of room for him to have slipped away, and placed an LMD in his place. He WAS a damn good tech guy, after all, could have put one together out of scrap parts.

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Posted: 15 Aug 2004 05:17 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
According to a caption on page 2 of P:YO 1, over the scene of the Castle family massacre, "And the spring air is full of approaching rain..." 
<<<

Well, there is a way to reconcile both the "summer" and "spring" references. We could place that event (and thus PUN7 1) in mid-June, which is still technically spring but commonly considered to be summer. 

I have the last five pages of PUN6 37 occurring on June 17 in the calendar. We could scooch that to a spot a little earlier in June, and start PUN7 within a couple of days after that, qualifying the anniversary for the spring/summer placement. Then the first six issues of PUN7, occurring over the course of a week, would fit before the destruction of Manhattan by "Magneto." 

How's that sound?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 15 Aug 2004 10:55 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

I like the idea.  And thus, PUN7 picks up right after PUN6 ends. And as banged up as Frank is at the end of PUN7 6, this gives him time to heal, cause he appears to be just fine at the start of PUN7 7, (which seems to me to take place in the Autumn).
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 18 Aug 2004 12:01 am    
By JLH

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
The Punisher Year One series retcons it to be at a point not too far in the past from his first appearance in ASM 129, due to appearances by various modern era characters.  
<<<

Just before "Year One" was published (Feb 94, in fact), Marvel made the "Punisher Anniversary Magazine" (one of those Marvel Age specials). One of the articles included "chronological confirmed incidents". Most were just in publishing order, it was by no means complete. But it DOES say, for Amazing 129, it was "...six months following his family's death." 

(the article tends to place the events in the Spidey books following that in true chronological terms, meaning Amazing 134 & 135 was "5 months later", 161 & 162 was "two years later". But the 6 months between Frank's family's death and the Jackal incident is at least some evidence for the mindset of where Spidey, Miles Warren, and others in P:YO took place)

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Posted: 18 Aug 2004 07:07 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Most were just in publishing order, it was by no means complete. But it DOES say, for Amazing 129, it was "...six months following his family's death."  
<<<

Guess what guys...this totally works! According to my analysis of the Official Marvel Indexes, ASM 129 takes place in December; and there's a reference to an upcoming Christmas party in that issue to boot. Now "six months" prior to ASM 129 puts us in...June -- the month that accommodates a setting considered "summer" but with "spring air." Love it when this happens.  

This would mean that the murder of Castle's family occurs in June of Year 7 of the Marvel Calendar, which (if you buy my estimation of the passage of Marvel Time, of course  ) is 15 years before PUN7 1. 

And as it happens, ASM 134-135 does indeed occur "5 months" (Marvel Time as well as real time) after ASM 129. The reference to "2 years" to ASM 161-162 doesn't hold up, though.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 18 Aug 2004 11:00 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Well, I dunno...both the Punisher Year 1 miniseries and the flashbacks in PUN7 1 suggest that a period of several months passed in between Frank's family getting killed and his actually becoming the Punisher. Yet I thought that in Frank's first appearance, (in ASM 129) he acts like he's been the Punisher for a while... 

(maybe that's just how I read the story...after all, since Frank fell for the Jackel's lies, he very well could be new to the profession...or he simply didn't have any experience in dealing with super powered types). 

So what JLH is saying is that Frank's family was killed, a few months passed, he becomes the Punisher, (as shown per the "Punisher: Year 1 miniseries, his first act is to kill a bunch of the mobsters responsible for his families death, and disfigure Jigsaw's face) and after that was all wrapped up, he immediately pops up in ASM 129, teaming up with the Jackel? Wierd...but I suppose it could work. 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Thread 43

Posted: 17 Aug 2004 04:16 pm    Post subject: Iron Fist #1-6
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

God, this series was boring. Please don't make me read it again. Please. 

"Breathless" 
IRON FIST #1-6 (May to October 2004) 
Writer: James Mullaney 
Artist: Kevin Lau (except Rick Mays on issue #5) 

General comments: 
What a dog. Still, it's fairly straightforward, so it shouldn't cause us any problems... 

Synopsis: 
* IRON FIST #4, page 1 to page 4 panel 3 (flashback). "One thousand years ago." K'un-Lun. Chi and other treasonous priests are sentenced to banishment on Earth, rendering them mortal. When they arrive on Earth (in an extraordinarily clunky scene), everyone else is worried for their personal comfort, but Chi just wants revenge. 

Characters: Chi 

* IRON FIST #4, pages 5-6 (flashback). Time unclear. Chi and the other exiled priests perform a ritual where the others all commit suicide, and their life energy flows into Chi, making him younger. (This is a recurring dream of Mary's.) 

Characters: Chi 

* IRON FIST #5, page 8 panel 5 (flashback). Decades ago. (Karen's age has apparently been frozen since this point, and she says that she was "over 21 in 1921" - so it's apparently the early part of the century, if not earlier.) Karen Hildebrande is brought before Chi, having been selected by the Whispers on the Wind - disembodied spirits that answer to him. 

Characters: Karen HIldebrande, Chi, the Whispers on the Wind. 

* IRON FIST #5, page 9 panels 4-7 (flashback). Montage of Shadow Thieves doing generic Shadow Thief stuff. Basically, they're Chi's footsoldiers, and their job is to kill people and absorb life energy for Chi's use. 

* IRON FIST #1, pages 1-3. Day 1. South Sioux Falls, South Dakota. Night. One of the Shadow Thieves attacks a man called Andy as he is using an ATM, and kill him. 

Characters: Shadow Thieves 

* IRON FIST #1, pages 4-16. Day 2. New York, twilight. Iron Fist fights a bunch of generic street thugs. When he dodges a bullet, it goes through a window and kills a woman in a nearby flat. Iron Fist defeats the criminals. "45 minutes later", the police arrive. Iron Fist has learned about the dead woman. A Shadow Thief watches from a nearby rooftop. 

7.55pm (by the clock in Iron Fist's room). He phones Misty Knight, hoping to talk about the dead woman. She is going out, but they agree to meet for breakfast the next day. 

"Meanwhile", in the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, South Dakota. A young girl, Mary Blue Cloud, is tormented by precognitive visions in her sleep. Her mother Elizabeth watches helplessly. 

Characters: Iron Fist, Shadow Thieves, Mary Blue Cloud, Elizabeth Blue Cloud, Scarfe (Danny's police friend) 

* IRON FIST #1, page 17 to page 22 panel 2. Day 3. Iron Fist meets with Misty for breakfast. As Misty was expecting, a bank robbery takes place across the road. Iron Fist and Misty intervene. However, during the fight, Iron Fist decides that he no longer cares, and wishes to retire as a hero. He abandons the fight and lets the villains go. (Simultaneously, in South Dakota, Mary is still dreaming.) 

Characters: Iron Fist, Misty Knight, Mary Blue Cloud 

* IRON FIST #1, page 22 panels 3-6. "Days later." Danny stands in his apartment. All his belongings are in crates. He has set out an envelope addressed to Rand-Meachum, an envelope to Misty, and his costume. 

Characters: Iron Fist 

* IRON FIST #2, page 5 to page 6 panel 4 (flashback). Apparently the same day. Luke Cage comes round to say goodbye before Danny leaves New York. 

Characters: Iron Fist, Luke Cage 

* IRON FIST #2. "Three months" after the above scene. The Himalayas. A Shadow Thief reports back to his master, Chi, with Iron Fist's abandoned mask. 

The Colorado countryside. Danny's new home. Green trees. Danny is chopping wood in the yard. Mary Blue Cloud arrives and asks for Iron Fist's help. Danny tells that he's retired and that she should go away. He reluctantly listens to her story (basically, that she's had some precognitive visions which suggest she should get his help), but isn't interested. However, the weather's terrible, so he agrees to let her stay the night. During the night, the house is attacked by Shadow Thieves. Iron Fist fights them. 

Characters: Iron Fist, Mary Blue Cloud, Chi, Shadow Thieves 

* IRON FIST #3, page 1 to page 11 panel 2. Continuation from the above. Iron Fist defeats the Shadow Thieves and leaves with Mary in his car. 

Characters: Iron Fist, Mary Blue Cloud, Shadow Thieves 

* IRON FIST #3, page 11 panel 3 to page 22. Next day. Sioux Falls, South Dakota. Another victim of the Shadow Thieves is delivered to the office of coroner Karen Hildebrande. She is intrigued by them. 

Colorado. Danny takes Mary to the bus station and puts her on a bus back home. Then he phones his NYPD contact, Lt Scarfe and exchanges information on recent killings by the Thieves. However, then Iron Fist realises that Mary's bus is full of Shadow Thieves, and he breaks off to rescue her. After defeating the Shadow Thieves again, Danny reluctantly agrees to drive Mary back home himself. 

Characters: Iron Fist, Karen Hildebrande, Mary Blue Cloud, Scarfe 

* IRON FIST #4, page 1 to page 21 panel 3. "Somewhere in South Dakota." Full moon. Early hours of the morning. At the roadside, Danny watches over Mary as she sleeps. 

Day. Danny and Mary drive on and arrive at the Blue Cloud home, where Mary's parents happily greet Iron Fist. 

The Shadow Thieves carry out another random killing at a motel. 

After dinner, Danny talks with Mary's mother, who delivers some tiresome exposition and talks about Mary's powers. 

Yet another corpse is delivered to Karen Hildebrande. 

A Shadow Thief attacks the Blue Cloud home. Iron Fist defeats it. 

Characters: Iron Fist, Mary Blue Cloud, Elizabeth Blue Cloud, Mr Blue Cloud, Karen Hildebrande 

* IRON FIST #4, page 21 panels 4-6. Morning; Danny leaves with Mary, having reluctantly accepted that he needs to stick with her in order to fulfil her visions (which seem to be accurate thus far). Mary's parents watch them leave. 

Characters: Iron Fist, Mary Blue Cloud, Elizabeth Blue Cloud, Mr Blue Cloud 

* IRON FIST #5, page 1 panels 1-2. "Yesterday." A Shadow Thief in South Sioux Falls begins to glow with energy and then turns into a bolt of energy which flies upwards. 

* IRON FIST #5, page 1 panel 3 to page 22. "Today." A montage of other Shadow Thieves doing the same thing in Paris, Rio, London and New York. All of the energy flies to the Himalayas and energises Chi. 

Following a lead from Scarfe, Danny and Mary go to visit Karen. Karen agrees to talk to them and reveals that she herself was once a Shadow Thief. (Cue flashbacks.) Karen has traced one of the Shadow Thieves to a warehouse address, and she invites Iron Fist to join her in visiting it. 

The Himalayas - Chi talks with the Whispers on the Wind. 

Iron Fist drops Karen off in a motel, and then heads to the warehouse. Meanwhile, Karen - who is, after all, an ex-murdering psycho - goes to the motel and abducts Mary, with encouragement from the Whispers on the Wind. Iron Fist soon realises that he has been tricked, but by the time he gets back to the motel, Karen and Mary are gone. Iron Fist improvises a costume for himself and puts on a makeshift mask. 

Characters: Iron Fist, Mary Blue Cloud, Karen Hildebrande, Chi, Whispers on the Wind 

* IRON FIST #6, page 1. "Eight days ago." Mary and Karen arrive by teleportation in the Himalayas. 

Characters: Mary Blue Cloud, Karen Hildebrande. 

* IRON FIST #6, pages 2-22. "Today." Central Park, New York. Iron Fist defeats some Shadow Thieves. Afterwards, he compares notes with Scarfe again. Eventually the Whispers on the Wind appear and teleport him to the Himalayas to confront Chi. Outside Chi's mountain headquarters, Iron Fist is attacked by Karen, whom he defeats. He fights past the Shadow Thieves, defeats Chi and rescues Mary. The end. 

Characters: Iron Fist, Shadow Thieves, Scarfe, Chi, Whispers on the Wind 

In fairness, I should add that Chi has some plan or other involving getting Mary to lead him to the God of Breath using her psychic abilities, which will then somehow give him the power he needs to raise an army and return to take revenge on K'un-Lun. But the story is so grindingly dull that I really can't summon up the willpower to summarise the plot in that level of detail...!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 17 Aug 2004 09:32 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, Paul, for the synopsis. Sorry you had to plod your way through what appears to be a boring story. 

A few questions: 

1) Is this volume 3 of Iron Fist? 

2) Does that "yesterday" scene at the beginning of issue #5 occur the same day as the last few panels of issue #4? 

3) You didn't note any seasonal references. I'm sure we can place this story after ASMU2 1 and before SECWAR 1. The question is whether we place Danny in this mini-series before or after his appearance in DD2 59.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 18 Aug 2004 04:07 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

1. Fourth. He had two minis in the 1990s. 

2. Impossible to say. 

3. Looks like spring in Colorado to me. Danny's standard outfit for most of the story is an unbuttoned shirt over a vest.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 18 Aug 2004 04:28 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

One further bit of info - a check of the Master List reveals that this Scarfe chap is actually an established character. His name's Rafael Scarfe, and he was a supporting character in the original IRON FIST, and in POWER MAN AND IRON FIST. He hasn't been seen since NAMOR #25. 

Also, on re-reading, the flashback in issue #2 actually takes place between panels 2-3 of page 23 of issue #1. The tip-off is that in issue #2, Iron Fist is still writing the letter which he leaves for Misty at the end of issue #1 - it's lying on a table unfinished. 

And one further addition - Elizabeth Blue Cloud is behind the scenes in issue #2. (Mary phones home, and specifically says that she's talking to her mother. However, we don't hear the other end of the conversation.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 18 Aug 2004 07:55 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Also, on re-reading, the flashback in issue #2 actually takes place between panels 2-3 of page 23 of issue #1.  
<<<


Just checking...do you mean page 22 of issue #1? If so, there's a span of "days" between those two panels. Do we have the latitude to put IF4 2-FB anywhere in that span? 

Also, if we're talking spring, then Danny would be in this series between his appearances in ASMU2 1 (April 20) and DD2 59 (Sept. 7). Unless there are other clues (such as days of the week, etc.) that preclude it, I'll place this series in May of Year 22, with exact days determined by the full moon reference in issue #4.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 19 Aug 2004 03:41 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The flashback shows Danny in his apartment with packing mostly complete. The end of issue #1 has the apartment all packed up.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 19 Aug 2004 07:01 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Okay, Paul. Thanks. I'll add these issues to the master draft of the calendar.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 19 Aug 2004 09:14 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

BTW, the span of time I have between ASMU2 1 (April) and DD2 59 (September) accommodates that "three month" gap between IF4 2-FB and IF4 2 well. I have IF4 starting in May and wrapping up in August, a time we see those green trees in Colorado.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 44

Posted: 22 Aug 2004 02:20 am    Post subject: X-Factor vol. 2
By SeanCurtin

Chronological placement of the X-Men seen here (the Morrison team plus Nightcrawler) is tenuous; I'd hazard a guess that the 

X-FACTOR vol. 2 #1 (June 2002) 

FBI Mutant Civil Rights Task Force agents Catherine Gray and Aaron Kearse investigate the murder of alleged mutant William Sumner. 

I disagree with the calendar's assumption that #1 should occur before the X-Men go public; Jean's not anonymous, she's concealing herself via telepathy. 

Characters appearing: 

William Sumner/"Billy Plummer" 
Catherine "Cathy" Gray 
Ramon (Catherine's lover or husband) 
Aaron Kearse 
Amy Kearse 
Police Chief Murray 
Helen Sumner 
Jean Grey 
Moira Gray (Catherine's mother, BTS) 
Alex Clowes 
Matthew Kearse (BTS) 
Sterling Whitman 
Tippy Kingston (Whitman's publicist) 
Malcolm Whitman 
Dean Crawford (dies) 
Cyclops 
Kendall Green 

Flashback: Catherine Gray's infant daughter Moira's mutant powers manifest and burn her to death. One panel. 

X-FACTOR Vol. 2 #2 (July 2002) 

Gray and Kearse investigate the death threats being sent to baseball star Tony Robb by schizophrenic Earl Whitacker. 

Characters appearing: 

Tony Robb 
Aaron Kearse 
Matthew Kearse 
Kendall Green 
Louis P. Handlesman (Robb's lawyer) 
Moira Gray 
Earl Whitacker 
Nightcrawler 
Ramon 

Flashbacks: 
#1: 18 months ago. Aaron Kearse and Kendall Green lose their right arms to mutant Ashton Wither. 
#2: Tony Robb, age 5, discovers his mutantcy. His father Wesley teaches him how to hide his power and to play baseball. 
#3: A younger Tony Robb, probably in his teens, playing baseball. 
#4: Robb playing for the major leagues. 
#5: Robb uses his powers to cheat in a Little League game for the first and only time. 

X-FACTOR Vol. 2 #3 (September 2002) 

Gray and Kearse investigate the bombing of a church that gave sanctuary to mutants. Kearse kills the bomber, Nakamura, who was using four invulnerable mutant girls as human shields. 

Characters appearing: 

Kyle Nakamura (dies) 
Catherine Gray 
Ramon 
Aaron Kearse 
Agent Duncan 
Jimmy Fingers (dies) 
Wolverine 
Moira Gray 
Kendall Green (dies) 
Jean Grey 
Beast 
Cyclops 
Emma Frost 

Catherine is seen holding her daughter in a photograph. I've listed it as a flashback below. 

X-FACTOR Vol. 2 #4 (October 2002) 

Kearse and Gray investigate Green's files and learn that the MCRTF has been spun into a conspiracy thanks in part to Duncan's paranoia. Ashton Wither kills Duncan and, three days later, Kearse becomes the task force director. 

Characters appearing: 
Ari Hussan 
Catherine Gray 
Aaron Kearse 
Ashton Wither 
Agent Duncan (dies) 
Amy Kearse 
Jean Grey (BTS) 
Beast (BTS) 
Moira Gray 
FBI Director Stone 
Ramon 
Matthew Kearse 

Flashbacks: 
#1: Directly following from last issue, the X-Men take the mutant children that Nakamura was holding hostage and warn Kearse that he needs to prove himself. 
#2: "Right after Wither", Kearse's church votes against allowing mutants sanctuary; Kearse abstains. 
#3: Gray sees her daughter burst into flames while Ramon is at a poetry reading. Occurs immediately prior to the one-panel flashback in #1. 

A videotape recorded by Kendall Green is viewed here; it was probably made not long before #1. 

Updated chronologies: 

BEAST/HENRY MCCOY 
A3 56 
**XF2 3 
**XF2 4-FB 
**XF2 4-BTS 

CLOWES, ALEX 
XF2 1 

CRAWFORD, DEAN 
XF2 1 

CYCLOPS/SCOTT SUMMERS 
X 117 
**XF2 1 
**XF2 3 
**XF2 4-FB 

DUCAN, AGENT 
XF2 3 
XF2 4 

GRAY, CATHERINE 
XF2 3-FB 
XF2 4-FB 
XF2 1-FB-BTS 
{XF2 1} 
XF2 2 
XF2 3 
XF2 4-FB-BTS 
XF2 4 

GRAY, MOIRA (Catherine's mother) 
XF2 1-BTS 
XF2 2 
XF2 3 
XF2 4 

GRAY, MOIRA II (Catherine's daughter) 
XF2 3-FB 
XF2 4-FB 
{XF2 1-FB} 

GREEN, KENDALL 
XF2 2-FB 
XF2 4 
{XF2 1} 
XF2 2 
XF2 3 

HANDLESMAN, LOUIS P. 
XF2 2 

HUSSAN, ARI 
XF2 4 

JIMMY FINGERS 
XF2 3 

KEARSE, AARON 
XF2 2-FB 
XF2 4-FB 
{XF2 1} 
XF2 2 
XF2 3 
XF2 4-FB 
XF2 4 

KEARSE, AMY 
XF2 1 
XF2 2 
XF2 4 

KEARSE, MATTHEW 
XF2 1-BTS 
XF2 2 
XF2 4 

KINGSTON, TIPPY 
XF2 1 

MURRAY, POLICE CHIEF 
XF2 1 

NAKAMURA, KYLE 
XF2 3 

NIGHTCRAWLER/KURT WAGNER 
UX 399 
**XF2 2 

PHOENIX IV/JEAN GREY 
X 117 
**XF2 1 
**XF2 3 
**XF2 4-FB 
**XF2 4-BTS 

RAMON II 
XF2 4-FB-BTS 
{XF2 1} 
XF2 2 
XF2 3 
XF2 4 

ROBB, TONY 
XF2 2-FB 
XF2 2 

ROBB, WESLEY 
XF2 2-FB 

STONE, DIRECTOR 
XF2 4 

SUMNER, HELEN 
XF2 1 

SUMNER, WILLIAM/"BILLY PLUMMER" 
XF2 1 

WHITACKER, EARL 
XF2 2 

WHITE QUEEN/EMMA FROST 
X 117 
**XF2 3 
**XF2 4-FB 

WHITMAN, STERLING 
XF2 1 

WITHER, ASHTON 
XF2 2-FB 
XF2 4 

WOLVERINE 
A3 51-FB 
**XF2 3 
**XF2 4-FB 
HW:6H 1 

-Sean

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Posted: 22 Aug 2004 08:55 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I disagree with the calendar's assumption that #1 should occur before the X-Men go public; Jean's not anonymous, she's concealing herself via telepathy.  
<<<

If she is concealing herself, then yes, my assumption that XF2 1 must occur before X 116 is incorrect. However, does her concealment prove that this scene in issue XF2 1 occurs *after* the X-Men go public in X 116? Or are we still free to place XF2 1 before X 116? Here's a case in which calendar placement is based on actual dates given in the comic -- in Jean's scene, "Sunday, April 7."
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 22 Aug 2004 03:48 pm    
By SeanCurtin

There's still room in the story for the X-Men to have not gone public yet - Tony Robb needs time to get forty home runs during the course of #2 -but it's not specifically necessary to place XF2 before X 116. 

The first couple of pages in #2, where the Kearses are at the game where Robb gets home run #32, could be an unlabelled flashback if need be. Although that scene seems to flow directly into the definitely-present-day sequence in which Kearse gets his new and improved arm, it could just be a flashback to the time period when Kearse first decided to get a new arm - he's not the type to make a decision like that without hemming and hawing over it for weeks or months first. 

-Sean

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Thread 45

Posted: 22 Aug 2004 07:04 pm    Post subject: Marvel Double Features
By Ant-Man

I was browsing the chronologies, and I noticed the following story listed: 

A 380/2 

This got me thinking about the Marvel Double Feature titles from 1994. 

To most people, this would appear to be the 2nd story in Avengers #380. 
The only problem is, the "normal" version of Avengers #380 doesn't have a 2nd story. 

This refers to MARVEL DOUBLE FEATURE...THE AVENGERS/GIANT-MAN according to the indicia. 
The same applies to the Thunderstrike/Code Blue issues. 

Is there an easy way to distinguish between the regular series and the Marvel Double Feature issues?

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Thread 46

Posted: 04 May 2004 10:28 pm    Post subject: What If v2 #28, 31, 48, 80
By SeanCurtin

(edited to add synopses) 

WHAT IF Vol. 2 #28 (Aug 1991) 
"What If Captain America Had Led An Army of Super-Soldiers In World War II?" (Part 1) 

Framing sequence synpois: Ted Koppel interviews Captain America, giving a brief retrospective of his origins. 

Characters appearing in framing sequence: 
Captain America 
Ted Koppel 
Uatu the Watcher 

Flashbacks narrated by Cap cover his origin; no new information revealed. 


WHAT IF Vol. 2 #31 (Nov 1991) 
"What If Spider-Man Had Kept His Cosmic Powers?" 

Framing sequence: Glenn Herdling proposes to his girlfriend Laura in a hot air balloon, but it almost crashes. Captain Universe briefly possesses Glenn's dog Casey, and saves the day. 

Characters appearing in framing sequence: 
Glenn Herdling 
Laura (Herdling) 
Casey (their dog) 
Captain Universe (possesses Casey) 
Uatu the Watcher 


WHAT IF Vol. 2 #48 (Apr 1992) 
"What If Daredevil Had Saved Nuke?" 

Framing sequence: Ben Urich writes a hypothetical story in which (wait for it) Daredevil saves Nuke; at the end of the issue, he burns it. 

Characters appearing in framing sequence: 
Ben Urich 
(no Uatu) 


WHAT IF Vol. 2 #80 (Dec 1995) 
"What If The Hulk Had Evolved Into The Maestro?" 

Framing sequence: Scott Lang uses one of Reed Richards' devices to scan alternate realities for a cure for the Thing. He finds a magazine from one such world in which Doc Samson cured the Hulk, only for the Hulk to turn evil and eventually die. Lang summons Doc Samson while the Thing reads the magazine in the john; in the end, the Thing rips up the magazine and sends Samson away. 

Characters appearing in framing sequence: 
Ant-Man II/Scott Lang 
Thing/Ben Grimm 
Doc Samson 
(no Uatu; his last issue as narrator was #76) 

Footnote places this sequence prior to FF 381. 

-Sean

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Posted: 05 May 2004 06:57 am    Post subject: Ant-Man in What If and FF
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
WHAT IF Vol. 2 #80 (Dec 1995) 
"What If The Hulk Had Evolved Into The Maestro?" 
Footnote places this sequence prior to FF 381.  
<<<

Sean, from your description, it appears that Scott Lang is based at Four Freedoms Plaza in WI2 80. Scott joined the cast of FF in issue #384, yet you note that a footnote places WI2 80 before FF 381. I'm not sure what to make of placement in this case. 

That raises the question of FF 384 relative to FFU 3. Ant-Man appears in FFU 3, suggesting placement after FF 384. Yet Ms. Marvel II leaves in FFU 3 and Ben discovers that she's missing in FF 384, suggesting that FFU 3 occurs before FF 384. Has someone figured this out?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 May 2004 12:01 am    
By SeanCurtin

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Sean, from your description, it appears that Scott Lang is based at Four Freedoms Plaza in WI2 80. Scott joined the cast of FF in issue #384, yet you note that a footnote places WI2 80 before FF 381. 
<<<

Yes, that's what it says, which is nonsensical. I believe that the editors must have meant #391. 

-Sean

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Posted: 06 May 2004 07:11 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Yes, that's what it says, which is nonsensical. I believe that the editors must have meant #391.  
<<<


Any idea why they'd note that WI2 80 occurs before that particular issue of FF? #391 is in the middle of a story arc that begins in #389. Should we place WI2 80 between FFU 9 and FF 389?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 May 2004 06:21 pm    
By SeanCurtin

I've no idea what the editor and/or writer were thinking when they included that footnote. I suppose it's best to simply ignore the footnote entirely and place this sequence either during FF 384 or after FFU 5. Contextually, WI2 80 seems to be the first chance that Lang has to take a close look at Reed's equipment and notes, so it would best be placed early in his FF chronology. 

-Sean

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Posted: 19 May 2004 09:53 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Belated character chronologies: 

ANT-MAN II/SCOTT LANG 
*FF 384 (per other thread) 
*FFU 5 
*FF 384 
**WI2 80 
FF 385 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN GRANT ROGERS 
CA 393 
**WI2 28 
IG 1 

DOC SAMSON/DR. LEONARD SAMSON 
H2 433-BTS 
**WI2 80 
DE:O 

**HERDLING, GLENN 
WI2 31 

**HERDLING, LAURA 
WI2 31 

**KOPPEL, TED 
WI2 28 

THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM 
*FF 384 (per other thread) 
*FFU 5 
*FF 384 
**WI2 80 
FF 385 

UATU [WATCHER] 
Q 25 
**WI2 28 
**WI2 29 (issues 28 & 29 are a continuous two-parter, and Uatu also appears in #29 according to http://www.comics.org ) 
**WI2 30 
**WI2 30/2 (there are two stories around the same theme in WI2 30, and Uatu narrates both) 
**WI2 31 
IG 3 

URICH, BENJAMIN 
ASM 360 
**WI2 48 
ASM 368 

-Sean

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Posted: 20 May 2004 01:55 am    
By Peter Fabricius

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Belated character chronologies: 


UATU [WATCHER] 
Q 25 
**WI2 28 
**WI2 29 (issues 28 & 29 are a continuous two-parter, and Uatu also appears in #29 according to http://www.comics.org ) 
**WI2 30 
**WI2 30/2 (there are two stories around the same theme in WI2 30, and Uatu narrates both) 
**WI2 31 
IG 3 
<<<

 


Just to confirm, I have WI2 29, and Uatu is on the first and last pages.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: 25 Aug 2004 05:23 am    Post subject: Uatu's shadow appears behind Urich........
By Enda80

"WHAT IF Vol. 2 #48 (Apr 1992) 
"What If Daredevil Had Saved Nuke?" 

Framing sequence: Ben Urich writes a hypothetical story in which (wait for it) Daredevil saves Nuke; at the end of the issue, he burns it. 

Characters appearing in framing sequence: 
Ben Urich 
(no Uatu) " 

Uatu's shadow appears behind Urich in the full panel page.

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Thread 47

Posted: 28 Aug 2004 05:06 am    Post subject: Venom: Sign of the Boss #1 & 2
By JLH

Back when I did the analysis for most all of the Venom mini-series, I left this 2-parter out (it was stuck with my GR collection). So here it is: 

------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
VENOM: SIGN OF THE BOSS, #01 [SEP 97] 

Venom/ Eddie Brock 
-Last in SM:VA, next in V:SOTB 2. 

Smith, Special Agent Daryl 
-Last in SM:VA, next in V:SOTB 2. 

Jones, Agent 
-First appearance. Next in V:SOTB 2. 

Ghost Rider III/ Dan Ketch 
-Last in GR3 87?, next in V:SOTB 2. This is the "neon yellow & red" suit for Ghost Rider, which appeared from GR3 79 until GR3 90. 

Maro, Melissa 
-Last in GR3 72?, next in V:SOTB 2. 

Santera, Franco 
-President of San Gregorio. Last in V:SOTB 2-FB, next in V:SOTB 2. 

Stigmata 
-Mutant bodyguard of President Santera. Next in V:SOTB 2. 

Teraknid 
-Super-powered terrorist with cyborg-spider body. Last in V:SOTB 2-FB, next in V:SOTB 2. 

Dolan, Stacy 
-Last in GR3 86?, next in V:SOTB 1. 

Sokolowski, Lt. Jim "Ski" 
-Last in GR3 76?, next in V:SOTB 1. 

A priest, some nuns, children, gunmen, Santera's wife Marta and two kids 
-other characters. Most next in V:SOTB 1, Marta last in V:SOTB 2-FB. 

Synopsis: Venom has been assigned to protect President Franco Santera while the visiting South American leader makes a public appearance in a poor New York church. Danny Ketch -- the Ghost Rider -- has come to the church to hear Santera's speech about his spiritual and political awakening. Danny is accomapied by his politically active classmate, Melissa Maro. A terrorist group attacks the church, but soon find themselves dealing with Venom, who had been there disguised as a nun! Venom is particularly brutal when dealing with the terrorists, prompting Danny Ketch to transform into the Ghost Rider to confront the lethal protector. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

VENOM: SIGN OF THE BOSS, #02 [OCT 97] 

Venom/ Eddie Brock 
-Last in V:SOTB 1, next in V:OT 1. 

Smith, Special Agent Daryl 
-Last in V:SOTB 1, next in V:OT 1. 

Jones, Agent 
-Last in V:SOTB 1, next in V:OT 1?. 

Ghost Rider III/ Dan Ketch 
-Last in V:SOTB 1, next in GR3 88? 

Maro, Melissa 
-Last in V:SOTB 1, next ? 

Santera, Franco 
-Last in V:SOTB 1. 

Stigmata 
-Last in V:SOTB 1. Revealed to be a member of the Vatican Secret Guard. 

Teraknid 
-Last in V:SOTB 1. 

Dolan, Stacy 
-Last in V:SOTB 1, next in GR3 90? 

Sokolowski, Lt. Jim "Ski" 
-Last in V:SOTB 1, next in GR3 91? 

A priest, some nuns (one named "Sister Mary Ann"), children, gunmen, Santera's wife Marta and two kids 
-other characters.Last in V:SOTB 1. 

FLASHBACK occurs, showing Teraknid, Santera, and his wife prior to their appearances in V:SOTB 1. 

Synopsis: Venom and Ghost Rider fight a lot. And it turns out the guy they were trying to protect set the whole terrorist thing up to begin with. He gets penace-stared, and hauled off by the Vatican. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Thread 48

Posted: 27 Aug 2004 11:36 pm    Post subject: Ghost Rider GR3 50 analysis
By zarathos42

Hopefully I'll do this right. First analysis. 

GR3 50/1 

June 1994 

Written: Howard Mackie 

Art: Ron Garney 

Appearances: 
Wei, Linda 
Badlino, Michael (Vengeance) 
Ski 
Blaze, Johnny 
Ketch, Dan (Ghost Rider III) 
Hellgate, Anton 
Mrs. Ketch 
Blaze, Roxanne 
Blaze, Craig 
Blaze, Emma 
Dolan, Stacy 

Synopsis: Beaten criminals lead to the speculation that Ghost Rider has returned. Blaze and Badlino go to GR's crypt to check, they find him inside. Badlino goes off after Hellgate. Blaze takes Dan home. Badlino is ambushed by Hellgate and escapes to the Ketch house interrupting the homecomming. Hellgate arrives and takes Badlino. During the battle Hellgate blows up the car Roxanne and the kids are hiding behind. GR gives pennance Stare to Hellgate who then escapes. During the aftermath Blaze tells Dan he'll kill him or GR if they come near him again. Dan vows to go after Hellgate. 

References: This would be before SOV 23 since Blaze's family is already dead in that story, but after SOV 22 since he mentions they were returned from their last dissappearance. This would also be before the Blaze regular series since he is looking for them in the beginning of the series, which is before the Blaze story in GR@2 since he doesn't have the Armour in that story. 


GR3 50/2 

June 1994 

Written: Howard Mackie 

Art: Roger Cruz 

Appearances: 
Ketch, Dan (Ghost Rider III) 
Dolan, Stacy 
Flag-Smasher (BTS) 

Synopsis: Dan and Stacy talk about the fact that he is Ghost Rider. Man in apartment screams for help. Stacy says it's a police matter and Dan to stay out of it. He changes to GR and meets Stacy inside. She tells him six heavily armed men took the man and his wife to the roof. When he gets there we learn that the men work for Flag-Smasher. GR desimates them and destroys their chopper. Stacy says she still loves Dan. GR says he's not Dan. 

References: This would come within a few days after GR3 50/1 since Dan has shaved the beard he had in GR3 50/1.
_________________
The God Zarathos shall some day return to his former glory. Or at least I hope he does.

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 09:48 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Looks good. In the future, though, please list the issue you're analyzing in the subject line. I've edited this one for you. 


watching: flowers in the attic

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 12:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

One other thing, if I may...a suggestion for all who post analyses: 

Please include any temporal references in your analyses -- e.g. lunar phases, days of the week, months, dates, holidays, birthdays, anniversaries, school year, foliage, weather, the amount of time that passes in the story and the time that has passed since other referenced events. In some cases, these references may also help place the relative order of events in the MU. 

Thanks, zarathos42.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 01:37 pm    
By zarathos42

Glad I could help. If no one's currently doing analysis on any of the missing GR3 and SOV issues, I have most of them, I'd be more than happy to do them. I currently have the time (joys of being temporarily unemployed) and I'm trying to get my issues in order anyway. Just curious though why no analysis on '93 and early '94 books. I read the FAQ and still don't understand that.
_________________
The God Zarathos shall some day return to his former glory. Or at least I hope he does.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Aug 2004 05:15 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Well, they're not in the FAQ cause it's not a frequently asked question, but since you asked... 

Beginning sometime in the mid seventies, I went through my Marvel comics collection and "cataloged" it. I had an index card (sometimes more than 1, as I'm sure you can imagine) for each comic book. One of the items on each card was the characters who appeared in that issue. There was an annotation section of each card that listed the before and after appearances of each character. 

Sometime around 1990, I decided I didn't want to do that anymore. I just wanted to read the books. So I stopped. Then the second set of the Official Marvel Indexes came out, featuring Avengers and X-Men. I was hooked, and started up again tracking character's chronologies in 1994. I went through all of my old index cards, while at the same time, tracking books that were currently being published. When I finished, that left me with a gap running from 1990 to 1994. 

I posted what I had, originally as a text list to the newsgroup rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe. It was well received, and I set up a website on Geocities, before eventually moving to my own server here. Over the years since that original posting (I think it was spring of 1996; if someone wants to do a google newsgroup search, they can narrow it down), I've managed to slowly close that gap, so that now, it runs for 1993 to mid-1994, and at that, only for about half the line. 

That's the why of the first gap. Here endeth the lesson. 


watching: traffic cams

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 08:33 pm    
By zarathos42

Well that's not exactly what I meant. Why are you not accepting analysis on the '93 and '94 books? Unless I just missed something.
_________________
The God Zarathos shall some day return to his former glory. Or at least I hope he does.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Aug 2004 08:45 pm    
By zarathos42

Meant to put this in my last post and forgot. 
Kinda unsure about flashbacks. Do we list them and put them in chronological order even if it shows what we already know? Or does it only apply when something new is learned on the events shown?
_________________
The God Zarathos shall some day return to his former glory. Or at least I hope he does.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Aug 2004 08:56 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Only when they show new material. 

As for WHY we're not accepting them ... basically, the Administrator wants to do it himself. Once they're up, I'm sure he'll welcome critiques and corrections. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 09:15 pm    
By zarathos42

Makes sence... on both parts. Thanks now I can get back to doing some analysis.
_________________
The God Zarathos shall some day return to his former glory. Or at least I hope he does.

			*	*	*

Thread 49

Citizen V and the V Battalion v1 #1-3, v2 #1-4
By SeanCurtin

The present-day scenes in the first volume are already included, but the flashbacks aren't, and a number of Thunderbolts appearances and minor characters are missing, so I've analyzed the first Citizen V mini along with the second. 

Citizen V and the V Battalion: The Everlasting includes a cameo of the Avengers in #3; this issue was published the same month as Avengers #51. I've put this sequence in between TB 57 and A3 45 for lack of a better placement. All other chronologies are relatively obvious. 

The chronology of Thor's appearance in flashback escapes me. He has Mjolnir and it's 950 AD. 

The Collective Man's off-panel resurrection for his subsequent appearances can probably be attributed to the same mystical means that resurrect Roger Aubrey in #4. 

CITIZEN V AND THE V BATTALION Vol. 1 #1 

Characters appearing: 
Destroyer/Roger Aubrey 
Fred Davis (former Bucky II) 
Diamondback II 
Eamonn (dies) 
Piers (dies) 
Citizen V/John Watson III/Baron Helmut Zemo 
Silver Scorpion/Betty Barstow 
Nuklo 
Topspin 
Goldfire 
Andrea Sterman 
Iron Cross/Helmut Gruler 
Fenris/Andrea & Andreas Strucker 
MODOK 

single panel flashbacks, p 11-12: 
#1: generic shot of the Invaders (Cap & Bucky, Torch & Toro, Namor) 
#2: Roger Aubrey as Dyna-Mite being held in someone's hand (possibly a repeated scene from an Invaders appearance) 
#3: Roger Aubrey and Brian Falsworth swapping identities (possibly a repeated scene from an Invaders appearance) 
#4: generic shot of the Destroyer punching a Nazi 
#5: Destroyer and Citizen V liberating a concentration camp 
#6: Union Jack, Destroyer, Spitfire and an unidentified woman in a wheelchair rebuilding London 
#7: Union Jack, Destroyer, Spitfire and unnamed members of the Wild Pack (led by Ernst Sablinova) fighting unnamed Nazi war criminals; some or all of these characters may be established characters 
#8: late 1940s - Union Jack and Destroyer meet the All-Winners Squad (Captain America III, Bucky II, Human Torch I, Toro I, Angel I, Sub-Mariner, Whizzer I, Miss America) 
#9: 1951 - Founding members of the V Battalion (Destroyer, Union Jack, Angel/Thomas Halloway, Whizzer, Miss America, Silver Scorpion, Iron Cross, Irene Martinez, Sam Sabuki and Reb Ralston) 
#10: generic shot of the modern V Battalion (Destroyer, Iron Cross, Topspin, Goldfire, Nuklo) 

CITIZEN V v1 #2 

Characters appearing: 
Bucky II/Fred Davis 
Destroyer 
Silver Scorpion 
Goldfire 
Nuklo 
Iron Cross 
Topspin 
Attuma 
Andrea Sterman 
MODOK 
Citizen V/Zemo 
Fenris 
Sub-Mariner 
Isadora Martinez 
Irene Martinez (BTS) 

Single panel flashbacks: 
#1: occurs during or after flashback #8 in issue #1. Union Jack, Destroyer and Angel speak with Namor. Characters are positioned differently, so this is a different scene. They appear to be in the middle of a coversation here while they're greeting one another in the fb in #1, so I'm listing this fb second. 
#2: Destroyer, Reb Ralston, Silver Scorpion, Sam Sabuki and Whizzer stand over a dead Skrull 
#3: Human Top, Golden Girl (now "Golden Woman" per the text page), Iron Cross and Destroyer surrounded by extra-dimensional energy 
#4: Destroyer and Iron Cross meet the Watcher, Howard Stark and Nathaniel Richards 
#5: Destroyer, Iron Cross, Twister and Golden Sun in the X-Mansion see Cerebro. (According to the text page, this "untold story" also features Professor X and Magneto, but the actual story doesn't indicate that.) 
#6: Destroyer watches a news broadcast on the election of Reb Ralston to Senator. 

CITIZEN V v1 #3 

Characters appearing: 
Baron Strucker 
Fenris (Andreas & Andrea Strucker; Andrea may die here) 
Citizen V/Zemo 
Vradec 
Guy Fontreaux 
Andrea Sterman 
Destroyer 
Fred Davis 
Silver Scorpion 
Nuklo 
Topspin 
Goldfire 
Iron Cross (dies) 
Human Torch I 

CITIZEN V AND THE V BATTALION: THE EVERLASTING #1 

Characters appearing: 
Citizen V/John Watkins III 
Aqhat 
Flag-Smasher 
Vradec 
Destroyer 
Silver Scorpion 
Fred Davis 
Nuklo 
Goldfire 
Topspin 
Andrea Sterman 
Collective Man (BTS) 
Marduk (BTS) 
Papahanau-Moku (BTS) 

Flashback #1: 1953: Brian Falsworth's funeral. In rear - two unknowns, Jack Frost, Miss America, Whizzer, Blue Diamond, Thin Man, Namora. Middle row - Angel, Golden Girl, Iron Cross, Human Top, unknown man, unknown woman (probably Irene Martinez), Sam Sabuki, unknown man, Namor. Front row - Destroyer, Lord Falsworth (former Union Jack I), Spitfire, Silver Scorpion. All unknowns are wearing suits, so it's hard to tell who's who. One of the unknown men is definitely William, Lord Crichton; the others almost certainly include Fred Davis and "Reb" Ralston. The remaining man should be Red Raven, since the rest of the Liberty Legion is present. Meanwhle, Citizen V/Paulette Brazee hunts down war criminal Johann Weimer only to see him killed by Aqhat. Upon dying, Weimer flashes back across his crimes. She kills Aqhat, who invokes the Everlasting and vows to return in another life. 
Flashback #2: Citizen V/John III following Aqhat immediately prior to the main story. 
Flashback #3: Two years after Paulette's encounter with Aqhat, Destroyer turns Aqhat's bow over to an Israeli museum. 

CITIZEN V v2 #2 

Characters appearing: 
Citizen V 
Destroyer 
Nuklo 
Topspin 
Goldfire (dies) 
Silver Scorpion 
Fred Davis 
Andrea Sterman 
Aqhat 
Collective Man (dies) 
Flag-Smasher 
Marduk 
Papahanau-Moku (unnamed) 

Flashback #1: 1971: John Watkins Jr. meets Amahl Farouk (still physically alive) in Riyadh, learns from his telepathic assistance that "Marduk" is involved with the Everlasting, and reports back to Aubrey. 

CITIZEN V v2 #3 

Characters appearing: 
Flag-Smasher 
Avengers (Captain America, Vision and Warbird seen; a silhouetted man in one panel could be Quicksilver, but it's too obscure to tell) 
Alpha Flight (Guardian/James Hudson and Snowbird seen) 
Winter Guard (Powersurge, Sibercat and Vostok seen) 
Marduk 
Destroyer 
Fred Davis 
Silver Scorpion 
Andrea Sterman 
Human Torch I 
Citizen V 
Vradec (BTS) 
Topspin 
Human Top 
Aqhat 
Papahanau-Moku (only called "Papa") 
Collective Man's remains 

Flashback #1: 1981: Destroyer meets with Marduk, who is in his human guise as Zoltan Nestor (or Nestor Zoltan, the story seems confused as to which it is), and is misled. Aqhat and Papahanau-Moku converse with Marduk. 

CITIZEN V v2 #4 

Characters appearing: 
Marduk 
Flag-Smasher 
Destroyer 
Silver Scorpion 
Andrea Sterman 
Human Torch I 
Citizen V 
Aqhat 
Papahanau-Moku (named in full) 
Topspin 
Fred Davis 
Goldfire (BTS, funeral) 

Flashback #1: 950 AD: Marduk wages war against the Norsemen, and is stopped when Thor strips him of his godhood (presumably Thor was empowered by Odin to do so). Thor is wielding Mjolnir. 


Character chronologies: 

The V Battalion have a number of individual appearances prior to TB 39 that aren't yet listed. Several members (notably Piers, Eamonn and Vradec, CV's radio support team) don't have entries. 

ANDREAS 
**TB 31-BTS 

ANGEL/THOMAS HALLOWAY 
CV 2-FB 
**CV2 1-FB 
M/SH3 7/2 

AQHAT 
{CV2 1-FB} 
CV2 3-FB 
CV2 1-FB 
CV2 1 
CV2 2 
CV2 3 
CV2 4 

BLUE DIAMOND 
INV 38 
**CV2 1-FB 

BUCKY II/FREDERICK "FRED" DAVIS 
**M/PRM 30 
**WI? 4 
**S-H2 22 
**CV 1-FB 
**CV2 1-FB 
**TB 38 
TB 39 
... 
CV 3 
**CV2 1 
**CV2 2 
**CV2 3 
**CV2 4 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS 
TB 57 
**CV2 3 
A3 45 

CITIZEN V/JOHN WATKINS 
CA '98-FB 
**CV 1-FB 
TB -1-FB 

CITIZEN V II/PAULETTE BRAZEE 
**CA '98-FB 
**CV2 1-FB 

CITIZEN V III/JOHN WATKINS JR. 
**CA '98-FB 
**CV2 2-FB 

CITIZEN V IV/JOHN WATKINS III 
TB 57 
**CV2 1-FB 
**CV2 1 
**CV2 2 
**CV2 3 
**CV2 4 

COLLECTIVE MAN 
M/CP 55/4 
(XFOR@ 3 - isn't this the same character?) 
**CV2 1-BTS 
**CV2 2 
**CV2 3 

CRICHTON, LORD WILLIAM 
**CV2 1-FB 

DAVOS 
**CA '98-BTS 

DESTROYER II/ROGER AUBREY 
INV 34 
**CV 1-FB 
**CV 2-FB 
**TB 42-FB 
**CV2 1-FB 
**CV2 2-FB 
**CV2 3-FB 
**TB 35 
**TB 38 
TB 39 
... 
TB 57 
**CV2 1 
**CV2 2 
**CV2 3 
**CV2 4 

EAMONN 
**CA '98-BTS 
**TB 24-BTS 
**TB 27 
**TB 31-BTS 
**TB 35 
**TB 36 
**TB 38 
**TB 39 
**TB 40 
**CV 1 

FIXER/PAUL NORBERT EBERSOL 
From Techno 
**TB 52-FB 
**TB 49 
TB 50-FB 

FLAG-SMASHER 
CA '99 
**CV2 1 
**CV2 2 
**CV2 3 
**CV2 4 

GOLDEN GIRL/GWENNY LOU SABUKI 
INV 39 
**CV 1-FB 
**CV 2-FB 
**TB 42-FB 
**CV2 1-FB 

GOLDEN SUN/KENJI SABUKI 
**CV 2-FB 

GOLDEN WOMAN 
See GOLDEN GIRL 

GOLDFIRE/AMEIKO SABUKI 
CV 3 
**CV2 1 
**CV2 2 
**CV2 4-BTS 

GUARDIAN/JAMES MACDONALD HUDSON 
GENX 58 
**CV2 3 

HUMAN TOP/DAVID "DAVEY" MITCHELL 
INV 39 
**CV 1-FB 
**CV 2-FB 
**CV2 1-FB 
**CV2 4 

HUMAN TORCH/JAMES "JIM" HAMMOND 
(ALL WINNERS 20 should read ALL WINNERS 21; there was no ALL WINNERS 20. S-H2 22-FB should read S-H 22. FF@ 4-FB repeats scenes from MARVEL COMICS 1, and should be moved or removed depending on whether or not it contains new information. If it is removed, FF@ 4 becomes his first modern appearance and should be labelled as such.) 
S-H2 22 
**CV 1-FB 
SUN GIRL 1 
... 
CV 3 
**CV2 3 
**CV2 4 

IRON CROSS/HELMUT GRULER 
INV 37 
**CV 1-FB 
**CV 2-FB 
**CV2 1-FB 
TB 40 

MARDUK/"ZOLTAN NESTOR" OR "NESTOR ZOLTAN" 
**CV2 4-FB 
**CV2 1-FB-BTS 
**CV2 2-FB-BTS 
**CV2 3-FB 
**CV2 1-BTS 
**{CV2 2} 
**CV2 3 
**CV2 4 

MARTINEZ, IRENE 
**CV 1-FB 
**CV2 1-FB 
**CV 2-BTS 

MARTINEZ, ISADORA 
**TB 38 
TB 39 

MISS AMERICA 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 85 
**CV 1-FB 
SUN GIRL 1 
**CV 1-FB 
**CV2 1-FB 
GSA 1-FB 

NAMORA/AQUARIA NAUTICA NEPTUNIA 
**MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82 
M/:LG 2 
**CV2 1-FB 
N 20-FB 

NUKLO/ROBERT FRANK JR. 
A 311 
**TB 38 
TB 39 
... 
CV 3 
**CV2 1 
**CV2 2 
**CV2 4 

PAPAHANAU-MOKU 
**CV2 3-FB 
**CV2 1-BTS 
**{CV2 2} 
**CV2 3 
**CV2 4 

PATRIOT/JEFF MACE 
*S-H2 22 (time travel sequence; not a flashback) 
CA@ 6 
**CV 1-FB 
CA 284 

PIERS 
**CA '98-BTS 
**TB 24-BTS 
**TB 27 
**TB 32-BTS 
**TB 35 
**TB 36 
**TB 38 
**TB 39 
**TB 40 
**CV 1 

POWERSURGE 
TB 25 
**CV2 3 

QUICKSILVER/PIETRO MAXIMOFF 
TB 57 
**CV2 3 
A3 45 

RALSTON, SEN. ROBERT "REB" 
SGTF 74 
**CV 1-FB 
**CV 2-FB 
**CV2 1-FB 
CA 273 

RED RAVEN 
INV 38 
**CV2 1-FB 
SUB-M 26-FB 

RICHARDS, NATHANIEL 
**CV 2-FB 
**AVF 9-FB 
{FF 272} 

SABUKI, DR. HIJIRI "SAM" 
INV 28 
**CV 1-FB 
**CV 2-FB 
**CV2 1-FB 

SABLINOVA, ERNST 
**CV 1-FB 
**{SSWP 9} 

SHADOW KING/AMAHL FAROUK 
**CV2 2-FB 
DPOOL 2-FB-BTS 

SHE-WOLF/PAULETTE BRAZEE 
See CITIZEN V II 

SIBERCAT/ILLYICH LAVROV 
**XF@ 1 (as Siberian Tiger) 
SSS 
IM3 9 
IM3 10 
**CV2 3 

SILVER SCOPRION/ELIZABETH "BETTY" BARSTOW 
COMEDY COMICS 9 
**INV2 2 
**INV2 3 
**INV2 4 
**CV 1-FB 
**CV 2-FB 
**CV2 1-FB 
**TB 38 
TB 39 
... 
TB 57 
**CV2 1 
**CV2 2 
**CV2 3 
**CV2 4 

SMUGGLER II/CONRAD JOSTEN 
**TB 47 
TB 48 

SNOWBIRD/NARYA 
GENX 58 
**CV2 3 

SPITFIRE/JACQUELINE FALSWORTH CRICHTON 
M/CP 89/3 
**CV 1-FB 
**CV2 1-FB 
CA 253 

STARK, HOWARD 
X:HC 4-FB 
**CV 2-FB (best guess) 
IM:IA 1-FB 

STERMAN, ANDREA "ANDIE" 
CV 3 
**CV2 1 
**CV2 2 
**CV2 3 
**CV2 4 

SUB-MARINER/PRINCE NAMOR MACKENZIE 
(SH2 22 is not a flashback; it's a time travel sequence) 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 42 
**CV 1-FB 
**CV 2-FB 
M/:LG 3 
... 
SUB-M2 1-FB 
**CV2 1-FB 
SUB-M 1-FB 

THIN MAN/BRUCE DICKSON 
M/CP 34 
**CV2 1-FB 

THOR 
**CV2 4-FB (no idea where this goes.) 

TOPSPIN/DARREN MITCHELL 
CV 3 
**CV2 1 
**CV2 2 
**CV2 3 
**CV2 4 

TORO/THOMAS "TOM" RAYMOND 
{M/SH 16} 
**CV 1-FB 
SAGAHT 4 

UATU [WATCHER] 
TOS 53/2-FB 
**CV 2-FB 
M/:LG 12 

UNION JACK/LORD MONTGOMERY FALSWORTH 
{INV 7-FB} 
**C2 50 
X:HC 3 
... 
INV 41 
**CV2 1-FB 
CA 253 

UNION JACK II/BRIAN FALSWORTH 
N 27 
(C2 50 is an appearance of Union Jack I, not II) 
**CV 1-FB 
**CV2 1-FB-BTS 

VISION II 
TB 57 
**CV2 3 
A3 45 

VOSTOK 
TB 57 
**CV2 3 

VRADEC 
**TB 23-BTS 
**TB 27 
**TB 35 
**TB 36 
**TB 38 
**TB 39 
**TB 40 
**CV 1 
**CV 3 
**CV2 1 
**CV2 3-BTS 

WARBIRD/CAROL DANVERS 
TB 57 
**CV2 3 
A 45 

**WEIMER, JOHANN 
**CV2 1-FB-FB 
**CV2 1-FB 

WHIZZER 
S-H2 22 
**CV 1-FB 
**CV 2-FB 
**CV2 1-FB 
GSA 1-FB

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Aug 2004 10:22 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Okay, you've got me curious... 

There is no "All-Winners" #20, but there IS an All-Winners #21? How does THAT work? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Aug 2004 11:14 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Just speculating here, but perhaps it's the same as "There is no Thor #125, but there IS a Thor #126." 


watching: buffy

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Aug 2004 01:55 pm    
By SeanCurtin

ALL-WINNERS was renamed after #19, to ALL-TEEN #20. Some time later, YOUNG ALLIES was renamed after #20 to ALL-WINNERS #21, which was its final issue. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Aug 2004 02:18 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

If I'm reading you right, since it seems that ALL-WINNERS #21 was an entirely different book from ALL-WINNERS #19, based on the way *we* treat books, this would be ALL-WINNERS vol. 2. 


watching: olympics

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Aug 2004 10:55 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Yes, that would probably be less confusing to 99% of the people browsing the chronologies. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Aug 2004 04:59 am    Post subject: Jack Frost Problem; Emil Stein
By Enda80

I am told that one of the characters from those World War II fbs in Citizen V resembles Emil Stein. Take a look at this link if you please 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/dantecapim.htm#Stein 

Also, Jack Frost's appearance at Citizen V's funeral may contradict Catpain America#384. 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/iceworm.htm

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Aug 2004 03:41 pm
By SeanCurtin

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
I am told that one of the characters from those World War II fbs in Citizen V resembles Emil Stein. Take a look at this link if you please 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/dantecapim.htm#Stein 
<<<

There's a strong resemblance, but not so strong as to say that it's definitely or even probably the same character. I doubt he was the only dark-haired Nazi war criminal to ever wear round glasses. 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Also, Jack Frost's appearance at Citizen V's funeral may contradict Catpain America#384. 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/iceworm.htm 
<<<

What's the context given for Jack Frost's disappearance? If someone just said "he hasn't been seen since WWII" that doesn't mean that that's when he was swallowed by the worm, just that that's when he dropped out of the public eye. Even if Jack himself explicitly said "I've been in there since WWII", that could have been hyperbole or his memories could have gotten fuzzy after half a century of suspended animation inside a snake's belly. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Aug 2004 05:16 am    
By Jim Smith

SeanCurtin wrote: 

>>>
single panel flashbacks, p 11-12: 
#3: Roger Aubrey and Brian Falsworth swapping identities (possibly a repeated scene from an Invaders appearance) 
<<<
 
Brian switches from Destroyer I to Union Jack II in the middle of rescuing the Invaders deep behind enemy lines. At the time, Roger is Dyna-Mite and stuck in his miniature size--it isn't until several issues later that they treat his condition, so Roger doesn't ask to use the Brian's Destroyer costume until well after Brian has stopped using it. The scene shown here is essentially symbolic. 


Quote: 
>>>
#10: generic shot of the modern V Battalion (Destroyer, Iron Cross, Topspin, Goldfire, Nuklo) 
<<<

This could be argued to be a repeated scene from Thunderbolts #40.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Aug 2004 11:33 am    Post subject: Schedule for fixing bugs?
By lkseitz

Is there any sort of schedule for fixing reported bugs? Just curious. I was feeling neglected because bugs I reported weren't fixed. Then I checked and saw there are bugs from early May that still need fixing. 

Also, do topics in this forum (Bug Reports) get locked automatically after a certain length of inactivity, or do the moderators do that themseles using some list of criteria?
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Aug 2004 04:34 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Yeah, that's odd -- I never noticed the locked threads before. What IS the criteria for locking up a thread? In Chat it looks to be four months of inactivity, but here in Bug Reports a July 30th thread is already locked... 

Huh. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Aug 2004 05:31 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

We moderators lock threads in the Bug forum once the Bug is corrected. All the locked bugs here have been corrected, and are just waiting for the next update. 


watching: lou dobbs

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Aug 2004 10:46 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Oh, we mods do that, do we?  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 51

Posted: 02 Aug 2004 10:40 pm    Post subject: M/H&L missing issue number
By lkseitz

The Marvel: Heroes & Legends (M/H&L) entries for the following characters are missing the issue numbers: 

Daredevil (twice) 
Thing (4 times)
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2004 12:10 am    
By SeanCurtin

Wasn't there only one issue anyways? 

(Not that I'm contesting that there should be issue numbers listed; I'm not.) 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Aug 2004 01:01 am    
By OnionMan

There were two issues. 

One from 1996 featuring Fantastic Four, and a second one from 1997 with Avengers.

			*	*	*

Thread 52

Posted: 18 Aug 2004 03:34 pm    Post subject: Bad Links to Character Pages...
By Ant-Man

**SUPER LOW PRIORITY** 
Not even sure if it's worth noting, but the links for Longshot and Lunatik character pages are dead links.

			*	*	*

Thread 53

Posted: 20 Aug 2004 02:23 pm    Post subject: Hauptmann Deutschland to Vormund
By Ant-Man

The link from HAUPTMANN DEUTSCHLAND to VORMUND doesn't work. 
There is no name tag in the HTML for Vormund's listing, so it just takes you to the top of the V page.

			*	*	*

Thread 54

Posted: 28 Aug 2004 03:55 pm    Post subject: Armageddon
By rhod

Armageddon has first app brackets around H2 463 even though he has appearances listed as early as H2 413

			*	*	*

Thread 55

Posted: 30 Aug 2004 11:30 am    Post subject: Bad Hybrid link
By lkseitz

The link for Hybrid (I) should be http://fly.hiwaay.net/~lkseitz/comics/Rom/enemies/hybrid.shtml.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Thread 56

Posted: 04 Aug 2004 11:02 pm    Post subject: Grayson
By ADMINISTRATOR

Has anybody seen the Grayson trailer? Download this and compare it to the Catwoman trailer. 


watching: larry king

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Aug 2004 12:03 pm    Post subject: Pretty Cool
By garbonzo

I liked it. Although I was disappointed that they decided to throw in every member of the Justice League and Rogues Gallery. Although the marrige between Dick and Barbara was cool. All in all I liked it. On ppar with World's Finest.

			*	*	*

Thread 57

Posted: 17 Aug 2004 04:38 pm    Post subject: searchthemcp has moved!
By jimmyppi

No more irritating advertisment. I've added a link on the old site. 
The new one is: 

http://www.chronologygraph.com/searchthemcp.php 

Could you update the link? 


Some advertising for my new site:  

Go to: 
http://www.chronologygraph.com/download.htm 
for the Marvel Chronology Graph. I've added a step by step page to make it easier to get started with the java program. 

Go to: 
http://www.chronologygraph.com/published_info.htm 
for a database over all comics marvel has published (well, sort of. Read info for limitations). One column in the table tells you if the title is canon or not and another the abbreviation used by the MCP.

			*	*	*

Thread 58

Posted: 24 Aug 2004 10:57 pm    Post subject: Can The JLA's Big Seven Individually defeat The X-Men?
By doncarlo

For the most part...Yes! 
Supes, GL (Hal), The Flash and MM...no doubt. 
WW, probably. 
Aquaman? Underwater...Yes. Otherwise, puts up a good fight, draws blood and loses. 
Batman? Given time.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Aug 2004 11:16 pm    
By jephyork [jephyork]

Which X-Men? There's only been about 400 of 'em. 

This thread REEEEALLY belongs in "Chat". 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 59

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 09:00 pm    Post subject: where could i find a pic
By peter porker

Could someone help me out please i would like to find a pic of peter porker amazing spider ham 

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 09:15 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Go to www.google.com, click on "Images" and search for Peter Porker. 

And, Peter, this has nothing to do with Marvel Universe chronology, so it doesn't belong in that forum. I've moved it to Chat. 


watching: newsnight

			*	*	*

Thread 60

Posted: 20 Aug 2004 01:18 pm    Post subject: Scarlet which
By COCONUT

i have this comic and it says "In her 1st solo limited series SCARLET WHICH" it came out in 1 jan 1994 can any one help me???

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Aug 2004 02:13 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

He/she probably needs some Milk of Magnesia. Have you ever read Scarlet Witch #1?

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Aug 2004 01:53 pm    
By COCONUT

How much is it wouth???

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Aug 2004 02:48 pm    
By Ant-Man

It's around $2 in the price guides. Mile High Comics will sell you a copy for $1, and it can usually be found in the 25-cent bins at most shops.

Last edited by Ant-Man on 23 Aug 2004 09:25 am; edited 2 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Aug 2004 09:47 pm    Post subject: Which is wouth what?
jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Speaking of the wouth of the book, I've never even HEARD of "Scarlet WHICH" #1. Must be rare ... might be wouth a lot. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Aug 2004 12:32 pm    
By COCONUT

YEAH :embarassed: !!!!
