	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Prince Baran
2. Avengers/Fantastic Four/Thor/Thunderbolts chronology
3. Paladin BTS appearance
4. Excalibur story in M/CP 31-38
5. An unlisted Omega Red appearence.
6. Bereet in Rampaging Hulk
7. Banshee - back story
8. X 29 - two corrections
9. What are the Prime Sentinals listed under?
10. XU 42/3 - placement
11. Emma Frost
12. Magneto in X 115
13. Uatu in Marvel Saga#24; he narrates the whole story
14. Those darn Richards kids
15. XX 1-FB-FB
16. Chronology additions and revision from UX 149-193, @3
17. She-Hulk v3
18. Character addition: Dianne Bellamy
19. Character Addition: Half-Life / Masterson, Tony
20. Dracula in MS. MARVEL 23?
21. Betty Dean
22. Kate Frasier/Fraser
23. Excalibur 26
24. Breaks in Excalibur 11
25. Questioning N'astirh's appearances
26. Revisions in the Black Panther's origin & early years
27. District X and UX 450
28. [POLL] Venom/Symbiote/Eddie Brock chronology question
29. MKSM #7 - timeline clue
30. Man-Thing
31. Hemingway from Gene Nation isn't on the list.
32. Gerber, Steve
33. A page by page breakdown of UX and CX
34. Contemplator change
35. Exiles
36. Ultraverse
37. Secret War #2-3 (spoilers)
38. X 162
39. Union Jack questions...
40. Question on some Kang appearences
41. Greetings, lad! 
42. Ningal and Ludi note; mixed up first.........
43. She-Hulk and Disassembled
44. Two questions, one small, one huge
45. Hate-Monger question; BTS in Taking AIM?
46. Starlord, that crazy Starlord
47. Coming from Marvel in January
48. Fandral Question; when did.......
49. Placement of Spectacular #20 (spoiler)
50. CX 27/2, XCAL 107-(f/b), CX 1
51. Giant-Size X-Men #1, and all that mingles with it...
52. Red Lucy Keough
53. Hulk Annual #15
54. Annuals in General, Oh and MCP Too
55. Daredevil in Relation to the Calender Project
56. Silver Surfer
57. Dervish in X-Treme X-Men
58. Back story - Gambit
59. X-Force 116 & 117 related corrections
60. Calendar question
61. Moving Alias #1-10
62. Flashbacks in ASM 513
63. Adding page & panel ranges to the MCP
64. MTIO#20...didn't the modern Blue Diamond....
65. Ux 425 & UX 426


	Issue Analysis Forum
66. Ultimates Vol. 1 #1
67. Ultimates Vol. 1 #2
68. Ultimates Vol. 1 #4
69. Ultimates Vol. 1 #3
70. Ultimates Vol. 1 #5
71. Ultimates Vol. 1 #6
72. X-Men: True Friends 1-3
73. Ultimate Fantastic Four #11
74. Are there any issues of Generation X you need analysis on?
75. She-Hulk v3 #1
76. She-Hulk v3 #3
77. She-Hulk v3 #4
78. She-Hulk v3 #6
79. She-Hulk v3 #5
80. She-Hulk v3 #2
81. She-Hulk v3 #7
82. Cable 101-104
83. Cable 105
84. Wolverine2 173-174
85. Weapon X: The Draft: Agent Zero 1
86. WOLVERINE/HULK #1-4
87. Gambit & Bishop
88. X-Man 74, 75
89. CFA: PPSM2 35
90. Logan: Path of The Warlord
91. Deadpool 67
92. Deadpool 69
93. X-Treme X-Men 19
94. Cable 99-100
95. Wolverine Annual 2001
96. Wolverine 177-180
97. Cable 106-107
98. CFA: Spectacular Spider-Man
99. Wolverine 181-186
100. Witches 1-4
101. Chronology Review for DD:Target #1 and DD: Father #1
102. CFA: Amazing Spider-Man
103. Chronology Review for DD2 #62-64
104. Venom #11-13
105. X 128-130
106. Venom #14-18
107. XXX 1-2
108. X 131-133
109. UX 414-416
110. Ux 410-413
111. UX 417-420
112. DD2 26-31
113. Chamber 1-4
114. UX 421-422
115. XX 20-24
116. CFA: X-Treme X-Men
117. Exiles 28-30
118. X 134
119. X 423-424
120. Wolverine 187
121. What If v2 #1, 7, 46, 47, 49, 61
122. Chronology Review for DD2 #65
123. Runaways #11-18
124. Chronology Review for Hulk: Gray #1 - 6
125. What If v2 #9
126. UX 425-426
127. UX 427
128. X-Statix 6-10, W/Doop 1-2. X-Statix 11-12
129. WX2 0.5
130. The rest of the Weapon X oneshots

	Bug Reports
131. X-Man 70
132. Age of Apocalypse page errata
133. Missing paragraph tag
134. Wolverine
135. Sage
136. Denise and Ellie Waters
137. E-mail Update Alerts?
138. A couple of typos

	Chat
139. Flashback Watch
140. Almost everything you ever wanted to know about Arcturus
141. Covering old ground
142. I'm new and interested in helping out.
143. Jeph on Vacation!
144. Statues and Mini Busts
145. how much is done?
146. Avengers Index question; what do they go up to?
147. Avengers #503, or the lack thereof...
148. Rogue panel
149. DB'ing your Comics
150. Who wants a copy of "Reading to the Rescue"?



Thread 1

Posted: 01 Oct 2004 11:21 pm    Post subject: Prince Baran
By Dhall

While looking through Wolverine Stuff, I noticed I couldn't find a listing for Prince Baran......I can't check if he's in any Marvel Comics Presents (w/o this turning into a big project) so could someone else do that? 

Prince Baran 
*W2 6 
*W2 7 
*W2 15 
*W2 16 
*W2 17 
*W2 18 
*W2 23 
*W2 27 
*W2 29 
*W2 31 
*W2 98 

Dave H

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Thread 2

Posted: 25 Sep 2004 01:14 pm    Post subject: Avengers/Fantastic Four/Thor/Thunderbolts chronology
By jannepie

Ive come to couple chronological conclusions that I would like to share. 

First, I think Avengers: Celestial Quest takes place between Avengers # 37 and # 38 even though Thor shouldnt be an active member that time. 

Heres the explanation. Fantastic Four Annual 2001 and # 46 (and most of the issues till 49) take place during the same day as Avengers # 41-43, where the Scarlet Centurion attacks the UN. Thor returns to Avengers in # 38 and that is the first time when both Thor and Triathlon are active members at the same time. Avengers # 38-40 take place during the two days before the UN incident but both Triathlon and Thor are seen in the team several days before in Fantastic Four # 39. 

So if Thor was with the Avengers in Fantastic Four # 39, why not in Avengers: Celestial Quest? 


Also, because Fantastic Four # 46-49 and the UN incident in Avengers take place the same day, the Kang War takes place between FF # 49 and # 50. She-Hulk is helping the Avengers the day after in Avengers # 44-45 and is tied in the Kang War since that so she doesnt have a chance to go to Sues ultra sound in FF # 50 before the Kang War ends. 


Captain Americas appearances in Thunderbolts # 53-54 and 57 cant take place between Avengers # 44 and # 45 because hes injured then. Thunderbolts # 48-52 also take place between Avengers # 37 and # 38. TB 53 between Avengers # 40 and # 41. TB 54-57 between Avengers # 45 and # 46. 

Theres a lot going on during the early days of the Kang War. Most of them take place during the same days. Heres the conclusion where Ive come to. 

Day 1 TB 51-52 
Day 2-3 TB LS, A3 38-40 
Day 4 TB 53, A3 41-43, Annual 2001, FF Annual 2001, FF3 46- 
Day 5 A3 44-45, the Ultron Imperative 
Day 6 TB 54-56 
Day 7 TB 57-61, A3 46-47 
Day 8 A3 48, 49 (the beginning), 50 (the beginning) 
Day 10? A3 49 (the end) 


Thors appearance in Avengers # 56 takes place before Thor vol. 2 # 46-51 which take place during one day in February. That is the day when Thor moves Asgard in Midgard and in Avengers # 56 Thor came from FAR Asgard. Thor vol. 2 # 53 takes place 100 days after # 46-51 which would make it May, perhaps. Avengers vol. 3 # 57-60 take place during the summer (there are butterflies) and they arent that many chronological months before # 72-75 where there is some snow. I would say A3 57-60 take place between Thor vol. 2 # 55 and # 56. A3 61-62 could also take place there or between Thor vol. 2 # 57 and # 58. 


What do you think?

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Posted: 25 Sep 2004 01:47 pm    
By Jim Smith

jannepie wrote: 
>>>
Theres a lot going on during the early days of the Kang War. Most of them take place during the same days. Heres the conclusion where Ive come to. 

Day 1 TB 51-52 
Day 2-3 TB LS, A3 38-40 
Day 4 TB 53, A3 41-43, Annual 2001, FF Annual 2001, FF3 46- 
Day 5 A3 44-45, the Ultron Imperative 
Day 6 TB 54-56 
Day 7 TB 57-61, A3 46-47 
Day 8 A3 48, 49 (the beginning), 50 (the beginning) 
Day 10? A3 49 (the end) 
<<<
 


Note that Hawkeye is sent to prison in T-bolts #50, is temporarily released to help with Ultron Imperative, and plots with Dum Dum Dugan to escape with Mentallo in Thunderbolts #52 and Life Sentences, and he actually escapes somewhere around #56. You've got his entire prison term lasting about a week. 

Ultron Imperative probably needs to take place before Thunderbolts: Life Sentences--in Imperative, Hawkeye says something to the effect that he couldn't believe Gyrich would ever let him out of jail, which wouldn't make sense if he's already accepted Mentallo's offer to escape. (On the other hand, Hawkeye could be trying not to let anyone find out what he's up to over in T-bolts, since it's a secret mission disguised as an illegal activity.) 

That rather awkwardly places Thunderbolts #53-54 after Cap recovers from his injuries in Avengers #45 and before Avengers #46, where the war gets into full swing. But up to this point the Avengers are going about their usual business, dealing with side missions and taking a night off to hang out, so I suppose it's not completely unrealistic that Cap would spend his time working with the Redeemers.

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Posted: 25 Sep 2004 08:38 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

According to Tom Brevoort, Avengers: Celestial Quest occurs between A3 40 and 41. 

You may want to (if you have plenty of time) check out the extensive discussion of the Kang War that we had quite some time back, on the old message board. I'm not sure how to get to it, but if someone can point to the thread for Jim, that would be great. 

If you want to skip to the results of that discussion, search for the relevant comics in part 2 of the posted Marvel Calendar.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 01:01 am    
By John Simons

http://www.chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/archive/mcparc23.zip 
http://www.chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/archive/mcparc25.zip 
http://www.chronologyproject.com/wwwboard/archive/mcparc26.zip
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 02:10 am    
By jannepie

Thanks everyone! I had never heard of this Marvel Calendar, I just have to go through it immediately. I've been driving myself mad for years because of the Kang War, this might finally put me to rest. 

Oh, Jim Smith, I only listed Hawkseye's last week in prison. There's a gap between TB 50 and 51 where he's in prison. But I seriously have to go through my notes after I've gone through the Marvel Calendar.

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Posted: 26 Sep 2004 10:49 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

No comics can really occur after Avengers #45 but "before the Kang War", since at the end of the issue the Master's ring-walls pop up around every major city. 

So what we did was imagine a large gap between A3 #44-45, wherein Cap recovers from his injuries, and goes on to appear in many books -- including Ultron Imperative, Thunderbolts #54 and 57 and Cap v3 #45-49. The final book we placed in that gap was Captain America v3 #50, where Cap is presumed killed in a nuclear explosion. 

Since Marvel helpfully never published a comic showing his *escape* from this presumed death -- he just showed up fine and dandy in Cap v4 #1 -- we decided that (since he *must* have survived and been found off-panel), his injuries in A3 #45 are from the nuke in CA3 #50, not fighting the Presence in A3 #44. 

We also had to place FF3 #50-54 before Thunderbolts #57, because Sue Richards becomes visibly pregnant in FF3 #49 (the same day as A3 #41) and gives birth in #54 -- and is shown as not pregnant in TB #57. TB #57 has to occur before the ring-walls go up at the end of A3 #45, so Sue must have given birth before then. 

Personally I think there's got to be a gap of around a month or so between A3 #44 and 45. 

-Jeph!

Last edited by jephyork on 27 Sep 2004 08:40 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 27 Sep 2004 08:36 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Man, that is NOT a discussion I'm eager to have again any time soon! That was just a nasty mess to wade through!

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2004 02:31 am    
By jannepie

You know, jephyork, that sounds good.

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Thread 3

Posted: 27 Sep 2004 06:56 pm    Post subject: Paladin BTS appearance
By SeanCurtin

Paladin is BTS in Avengers #267; the Wasp receives a letter from him. 

PALADIN 
PPTSS 106 
**A 267-BTS 
A 271 

-Sean

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Posted: 03 Oct 2004 09:19 am    
By Arthur [DIRECTOR]

I would qualify it more as 

PPTSS 106 
**A 267-FB-BTS 
A 271 

Paladin's action clearly must have happened PRIOR to A 267

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Oct 2004 04:12 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Yes, but it's not a flashback. Most letters, messages on answering macines and the like are made before the sequence in the story in which they are seen, but the MCP usually lists them like an out-of-sequence part of the main story. For example, Prof. X's letter that the Beast reads in the UX issue with Mesmero and Magneto is qualified as a BTS appearance in Xavier's chronology even though the letter could have been written a week before McCoy visited the mansion. 

-Sean

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Thread 4

Posted: 03 Oct 2004 12:18 pm    Post subject: Excalibur story in M/CP 31-38
By Dhall

There is an Excalibur story running through: 
M/CP 31/4 
M/CP 32 
M/CP 33 
M/CP 34 
M/CP 35 
M/CP 36 
M/CP 37 
M/CP 38 

This is listed inncorectly in the MCP, as between Excal 8 and 9, when it has to happen AFTER the cross-time caper. 

Why you ask? In M/CP 37 and 38, the big grey dragon is with the team. 
They rescued this dragon from the Nazi Excalibur at the end of Excalibur 11 (when they get zapped across the dimensions), and it was with them through the cross time caper, and into the beginning of the Alan Davis run. 

Since they are on 616 Earth, and Kitty is also with the team, this story must occur AFTER Excalibur 34. 

I have it listed: 

Shadowcat: 
XCAL 34 
XSOS 2 
*M/CP 31/4 
*M/CP 32 
*M/CP 33 
*M/CP 34 
*M/CP 35 
*M/CP 36 
*M/CP 37 
*M/CP 38 
T 427 
T 428 
T 429 

Nightcrawler: 
XCAL 34 
XSOS 2 
*M/CP 31/4 
*M/CP 32 
*M/CP 35 
*M/CP 36 
*M/CP 37 
*M/CP 38 
T 427 
T 428 
T 429 

Lockheed: 
XCAL 34 
XSOS 2 
*M/CP 31/4 
*M/CP 32 
*M/CP 37 
*M/CP 38 
T 427 
T 428 
T 429 

Phoenix III: 
XCAL 34 
XSOS 2 
FF@ 23 
XF@ 5 
UX@ 14 
UX@ 14/2 
UX@ 14 
*M/CP 31/4 
*M/CP 32 
*M/CP 36 
*M/CP 37 
*M/CP 38 
T 427 
T 428 
T 429 


Meggan: 
XCAL 34 
XSOS 2 
FF@ 23 
*M/CP 31/4 
*M/CP 32 
*M/CP 34 
*M/CP 35 
*M/CP 36 
*M/CP 37 
*M/CP 38 
T 427 
T 428 
T 429 


Captain Britain: 
XCAL 34 
XSOS 2 
*M/CP 31/4 
*M/CP 32 
*M/CP 33 
*M/CP 34 
*M/CP 35 
*M/CP 36 
*M/CP 37 
*M/CP 38 
T 427 
T 428 
T 429 

Widget: 
XCAL 30 
XSOS 2 
*M/CP 31/4 
*M/CP 32 
*M/CP 37 
*M/CP 38 
S-H2 26-FB 
S-H2 26 

Dave H

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Posted: 03 Oct 2004 12:25 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

What about putting Meggan and Phoenix prior to the Annuals? I'd prefer not to contradict the Marvel Index, unless there's no way around it. 


watching: perfect crimes?

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Posted: 03 Oct 2004 05:02 pm    
By Dhall

That wouldn't cause any problems that I am aware of. 

There are a few other probelms with the Excalibur timeline around #11, but it's easier for me to address them one at a time, and I'm going to be out of town for a few days, so...... 

Dave H

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Thread 5

Posted: 05 Oct 2004 11:12 pm    Post subject: An unlisted Omega Red appearence.
By arthur_phillip_dent

Omega Red appears for four panels in Generation X #8. He has several thought clouds and then a single line of dialogue just after the team jumps into the other dimension. 

It would put him in Ireland during their time there.
_________________
Eagles may soar but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

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Thread 6

Posted: 30 Sep 2004 07:19 pm    Post subject: Bereet in Rampaging Hulk
By shadrakor

According to her current listing, Bereet appears in Rampaging Hulk #9, which is inaccurate for a couple reasons. First of all, she was in all 9 issues of Rampaging Hulk, not just #9. More importantly, H2 269 declared RH 1-9 to be fictional "Techno-Art" movies produced by Bereet to entertain the people of Krylor. That is, of course, why RH 1-9 are not included in the Hulk chronology anywhere. 

Removing the reference entirely doesn't feel right, however. RH isn't exactly "non-canon," it's just fiction within the MU, and relevant at least to Bereet's chronology. I suggest as the "author" of RH, she be placed as BTS in all 9 issues. Her new entry would be as follows. 

BEREET 
** RH 1-BTS 
** RH 2-BTS 
** RH 3-BTS 
** RH 4-BTS 
** RH 5-BTS 
** RH 6-BTS 
** RH 7-BTS 
** RH 8-BTS 
** RH 9-BTS 
H2 269 
H2 270 
H2 271 
...

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Posted: 05 Oct 2004 08:35 am    
By shandrakor

So, do I take everyone's silence as implicit agreement? Dismissal? Or maybe just nobody has the books that I'm talking about to agree or disagree with me?

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2004 08:44 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Not quite. We don't list Spider-Man as behind the scenes, every time we see a Peter Parker photograph in the Daily Bugle. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 05 Oct 2004 12:00 pm    
By rhod

That's not quite the same though is it? If an issue was entirely photographs of Spidey, explicitly stated to have been taken by Peter Parker, then you'd be able to make a comparison. 
I've not read the Hulk issues in question though so maybe I don't quite get it - do these stories have absolutely no basis in 'fact'? They're completely 'invented' by Bereet?

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2004 12:55 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

rhod wrote: 
>>>
That's not quite the same though is it? If an issue was entirely photographs of Spidey, explicitly stated to have been taken by Peter Parker, then you'd be able to make a comparison. 
<<<

I don't see a practical difference between the two. 

rhod wrote: 
>>>
I've not read the Hulk issues in question though so maybe I don't quite get it - do these stories have absolutely no basis in 'fact'? 
<<<

They have no basis in fact. Offhand, I'm not sure why Bereet is listed as appearing in RH 9. We need to check that. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 05 Oct 2004 05:42 pm    
By shandrakor

Quote: 
>>>
I don't see a practical difference between the two.  
<<<


Just to clarify: if there were an issue of Spiderman, consisting entirely of a photo album of in-continuity images taken by Peter Parker, but he himself never appeared in panel, you would disagree with including Peter Parker as BTS in that issue? 

It's not that I'm against removing Rampaging Hulk completely, that's certainly one way to go with it. I was just trying to find a good way of including the cannon justification written in for removing Rampaging Hulk from continuity. 

In short, RH needs to either go away completely, or all 9 need to get added to Bereet. Either way is fine with me.

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Posted: 05 Oct 2004 09:45 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Just to clarify: I'm saying that a photo album is not somehow more important than a photo. 


watching: vice-presidential debate

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Posted: 05 Oct 2004 10:39 pm    
By shandrakor

So, no, you would not support including Peter Parker as BTS in that hypothetical photo album issue, correct? 

I realize that I'm probably coming across as really antagonistic and hostile here, and that's honestly not my intent. In terms of issue analysis, BTS is the hardest concept for me to get a firm grasp on, and figuring out where the line is drawn can be a problem.

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Posted: 05 Oct 2004 11:29 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
So, no, you would not support including Peter Parker as BTS in that hypothetical photo album issue, correct? 
<<<

Correct. And my reasoning, selfish as it may be, is that there's no difference between one photo, and a bunch of photos, that as soon as we include a photo album as a bts appearance by Peter Parker, everyone will want to add every photo ever taken by Peter, and every story ever written by Ben Urich, and so on. 

And also worth noting that the Marvel Indexes don't treat these as bts appearances. 


shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
I realize that I'm probably coming across as really antagonistic and hostile here, and that's honestly not my intent. In terms of issue analysis, BTS is the hardest concept for me to get a firm grasp on, and figuring out where the line is drawn can be a problem. 
<<<

You don't come across as antagonistic, or hostile. And maybe we have our first topic for San Diego. 


watching: terror in the aisles

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Posted: 05 Oct 2004 11:48 pm    
By shandrakor

My case for the distinction is that BTS is used when a character not shown has a direct impact on what's going on. A single photo in the panel isn't really affecting anything. A photo album issue however, there's more case that Peter Parker is definately present and potentially influencing things. 

Less hypothetically, Bereet's influence on the events is pretty clear - all of the words are hers, the situation was created entirely by her. (Well, her and the Star Eye, but that's confusing things unduly) 

I simply have this feeling like, as long as Bill Mantlo contrived a way for the Rampaging Hulk story to remain cannon, without actually impacting continuity, we should try to find some way to include it too. It would be less of an issue if Bereet hadn't show up in the "real" book, and stuck around for a year and a half realtime...

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Posted: 05 Oct 2004 11:57 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

shandrakor wrote: 
>>>
My case for the distinction is that BTS is used when a character not shown has a direct impact on what's going on. A single photo in the panel isn't really affecting anything. A photo album issue however, there's more case that Peter Parker is definately present and potentially influencing things. 
<<<


Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. A photo album "potentially influenc[es] things" to the same extent that a photo does. 


watching: terror in the aisles

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Thread 7

Posted: 22 Sep 2004 04:29 am    Post subject: Banshee - back story
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

More pre-debut appearances, and again I seem to find myself reorganising the list. The general thrust of Sean's career is pretty straightforward - marries Maeve, fathers Theresa, off on an Interpol mission, doesn't know Theresa is born, Maeve gets killed, Sean throws himself into his work, Sean eventually gets kidnapped by Factor Three and debuts as the Banshee. Unfortunately, his back story is cluttered with random Interpol flashbacks, many of which contain conflicting continuity references and at least one of which is now a major continuity headache... 

CLASSIC X-MEN #16, second story 
Sean Cassidy is returning home from a concert when he is stopped by the evil, nasty, corrupt Northern Irish police. Maeve Rourke rescues him. Over the following weeks, Maeve is torn between Sean and his cousin Black Tom Cassidy. Sean misses a date with Maeve after he's run off the road by the evil police. Tom equivocates but eventually tells Maeve why Sean isn't there, rather than trying to move in himself. (This story is currently placed after Sean and Maeve's wedding, which can't be right!) 

X-FORCE vol 1 #31, page 8 panel 3 (flashback) 
Sean and Maeve's wedding. Tom is the best man. 

X-MEN ANNUAL vol 2 #3, second story (flashbacks) 
Sean is "a promising new agent of Interpol" and is keeping his power a secret. He is assigned to safeguard weapons specialist Patrick Lipton. HYDRA attack and Sean is defeated. Lipton agrees to go with them if they will spare Sean's life. (The MCP currently has this much later in Sean's career, but there seems no reason not to make it his first Interpol flashback, as suggested by the "promising new agent" line.) 

DEADPOOL vol 1 #2, pages 1-3 (flashback) 
(For the avoidance of doubt, this is the second Deadpool miniseries - the first one was called DEADPOOL: THE CIRCLE CHASE.) Another Interpol mission. Sean Cassidy and his partner break into the office of a mobster, Almadovar. Almadovar nearly kills Sean, but is himself murdered by Deadpool (in full costume). 

The chronological references here are somewhat garbled. Sean and his partner mention Amahl Farouk as being active, which puts it very far back indeed. In the present-day sequences, Sean also says that shortly after this mission, he left Interpol as a result Maeve's death. That conflicts with all other accounts, but confirms that this story is intended to be a LONG time ago - far enough back to predate Siryn's birth, which is also consistent with the story taking place before Farouk's death. Perhaps Sean took a leave of absence after Maeve's death before returning. Of course, this also gives Deadpool a strikingly early debut, but that seems to be deliberate. 

CLASSIC X-MEN #26, second story (flashbacks) 
"Twenty years ago" (relative to the framing sequence, which is itself contemporaneous with late-70s X-Men stories). While on an Interpol assignment in Calgary, Sean meets Logan for the first time when they cross paths in a bar. Nothing of particular import happens. (This is a fairly throwaway back-up strip written by, of all people, Tom Orzechowski. Placed here on the basis that Siryn was presumably still under the age of 20 at the time of the framing sequence, so Maeve's still alive at this point.) 

Not depicted: Sean Cassidy returns to Cassidy Keep from a lengthy undercover mission, and learns that Maeve is dead. 

X-FORCE vol 1 #31, page 9 (flashback) 
Sean visits Maeve's grave. Black Tom approaches him, intending to tell him about Theresa. Sean attacks Tom on sight, irrationally blaming him for failing to protect Maeve. He breaks Tom's leg and flies off in a rage. Tom later changes his mind and keeps Theresa's existence secret. 

GENERATION X #10 (various flashbacks) 
"Twenty years ago" or "nearly twenty years ago" (per issue #11), in both cases relative to mid-nineties Generation X stories. Sean Cassidy goes against orders to investigate a serial killer who Interpol seem determined to ignore. Other Interpol agents try to arrest him, but Sean escapes. On a train, Sean is approached with information by the man who will go on to become Magneto (evidently not for the first time). 

GENERATION X #11 (various flashbacks) 
Sean traces the serial killer to Cassidy Keep. It turns out to be Arkady Rossovich. For political reasons, Interpol are covering up Arkady's killings. Completely demented, Arkady asks Sean to kill him. Sean shoots him, but Arkady survives. (According to Sean, Arkady was then taken away by officials, and was subsequently transformed into Omega Red.) 

X-FORCE vol 1 #31, page 10 panel 2 (flashback) 
After "years" away on Interpol missions, Sean returns to Cassidy Keep on a mission to capture Black Tom; they fight. (No details. Theresa is said to be at a private school at this time, so Sean does not learn about her. The MCP places this after GENX -1, but as discussed below, GENX -1 has to come very soon before Sean's debut; this flashback has more flexibility.) 

GENERATION X #-1 
A continuity nightmare. Sean is described as an NYPD detective at this point; perhaps he's on secondment. While keeping surveillance on Harry Leland with his partner, Sean sees the teenage Emma Frost being abducted by the Dark Beast. He goes after her. Emma saves him from the Dark Beast, but then wipes his memory of events and sends him and his partner away, intending to form an alliance with the Dark Beast. (This story has Emma, aged 16, attending a society ball. Both the narrator and the Dark Beast confirm Emma's claim to be a runaway who spent time living on the streets, which seems to have been comprehensively discredited by the EMMA FROST series. Assuming that this story remains canonical at all - and EMMA FROST writer Karl Bollers maintains that it is - it must take place after current events in EMMA FROST, which in turn would place it after the dawn of mutant hysteria seen in EF #14. That would place it after the debut of the original Sentinels, meaning that this story is only very shortly before Sean's capture by Factor Three and subsequent debut.) 

Sean is traditionally listed as BTS in UX 26-27 on the basis that he's sensed as a mutant menace in those issues, and then goes on to debut in UX 28. That gives the following listing:- 

CX 16/2 
XFOR 31-FB 
X@ 3/2-FB 
DPOOL2 2-FB 
CX 26/2-FB 
XFOR 31-FB 
GENX 10-FB 
GENX 11-FB 
XFOR 31-FB 
GENX -1 
UX 26-BTS 
UX 27-BTS 
UX 28
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 22 Sep 2004 07:12 am    
By Dhall

As Gen X -1 is the ONLY issue ever where Sean is with the NYPD, it's entirelly possible that this issue occurs AFTER his debut with Factor Three. That it's after his time in Interpol no one doubts. My argument for putting it later is: 

1) The X-Men appear in their individual costumes in EF, which places this after UX 39. (Unless, and until we have definite information that this is an art error, there's no reason to treat it as such.) 

2) What was Banshee doing after Factor 3, and before he was kidnapped by the Sentinels for UX 58-60? I'd have to check the issues of course to confirm, but as far as we know, not much. I'd guess that this is the period where he was working for the NYPD. He certinaly wanted to go on the straight and narrow after the factor three experience, and there is no evidence that he went back to Interpol. 

3) Emma supposedly spends a year homeless prior to the events of GEN X -1. This places it at least a year after EF. Whatever that means exactly, a year or so, should put this issue well after UX 28 (since as you say the dawn of mutant hysteria is seen in EF 14.) 


Dave H

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Posted: 22 Sep 2004 09:10 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The costumes in the early issue of EF are definitely an error, since the existence of mutants doesn't even become public knowledge until EF 14, when anti-mutant hatred appears more or less overnight. It's inconceivable that Emma could have been ignorant of the concept of mutants up until that point if the X-Men had been active that long before her series started.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 22 Sep 2004 09:31 am    
By Dhall

Paul, 
If it's any consolation, I would agree with you,regarding the internal logic of the EF series, IF we were just discussing the EF series (and not Gen X -1.) Gen X -1 is really incompatible in many ways with EF. I think we should wait for EF to finish, before we try to hash this out. I'm really wondering if it is still canon. 

My thoughts currently about Gen X -1, is that it is so incompatible with the EF series, that we're going to have to throw it onto the non-canon pile. If we do that, then I would probably go along with you on an early placement 
for EF. 

It seems to me that there is no real way to reconcile Gen X -1 with EF. Why would Emma spend a year living on the streets, now that she has enough money to go to college? When exactly was Banshee in the NYPD? 

As things are, we're already having to throw out some Gen X flashbacks, that clearly contradict the EF series. 


Dave H

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Posted: 22 Sep 2004 10:29 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

True; however, Karl Bollers insists that he's well aware of these flashbacks and that (assuming the series survives that long) they'll be explained in the end. 

I rather expect that the answer is going to be that Emma started lying about her past at some point, which would require a degree of revisionism to GENX -1 but wouldn't really invalidate the story as a whole - her age would have to be increased, the bit about her living on the streets has to go, but the overall plot remains valid.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 22 Sep 2004 11:54 am    
By Dhall

Then we should wait until EF is finished before we try to place gen x -1. My worry is that the series will get cancelled, and leave us without an explanation for gen x -1, and the genx fb's.

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Posted: 22 Sep 2004 12:34 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

If we never do get an explanation for the Gen-X FBs, then I suggest we simply place them based on Emma's relative age -- before EF #1. 

She appears to be eleven or twelve in the FBs -- and it's not inconceivable that she had a slight development of her psychic powers back then. From what we know of her father, he likely WOULD have tossed her in a mental hospital. And her powers could have diminished, and returned fully years later in EF #1. 

I know it doesn't make a perfect sense upon a close reading -- but it's the simplest way to order the events. 

As for Gen-X #-1 and Emma's period of homelessness -- could it have happened between EF #6-7? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Sep 2004 12:57 pm    
By Dhall

No, it could not, unless you are prepared to believe that she's met the Dark Beast, Harry Leland, and Banshee by EF #7. That just strains credibility to the extreme.....

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Sep 2004 01:42 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I ... am prepared to believe that. What's wrong with it, other than her not knowing what mutants are in EF #13-14? She just might not know the term -- surely by this point in EF, she's heard of super-beings in general. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Sep 2004 09:47 pm    
By Dhall

Well that's the point, if she'd met some mutants, she'd know what they are, yes? 

Dave H

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Posted: 23 Sep 2004 04:04 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Placement of Generation X #-1 before Emma Frost #1 is completely unworkable. Aside from anything else, by the time of Generation X #-1 she's left home and is reasonably skilled in the use of her powers. In Emma Frost #1 she's a taciturn mouse who's never summoned up the nerve to cross her parents, and her powers haven't even emerged yet.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 23 Sep 2004 08:51 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I wasn't suggesting placing Gen-X #-1 before EF #1 ... I was suggesting placing it between EF #6-7, and chucking the "living on the streets for a year" reference. 

I was suggesting placing the "insane asylum" flashbacks in Gen-X #24 and 48 before EF #1 -- based mainly on Emma's relative age. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Sep 2004 09:49 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Still wouldn't work, though. Emma's telepathy is far too advanced in GENX #-1. There's just no way that that story can take place until some time after the current EF storyline because Emma simply doesn't yet have the skill or power to do things that are central to the plot of GENX -1. She's only just learned to read thoughts; GENX -1 has her doing mind control and memory wiping. Granted that GENX -1 shows Emma to be inexperienced with those tricks, as of the most recent EF issue, she can't do them at all. Nowhere even close. And her lack of telepathic skill isn't just a major plot point in EF - it pretty much IS the plot. 

It's much easier to ignore the specific age given for Emma in GENX #-1 (which is irrelevant to the plot), and the references to her living on the streets (which are alluded to, but ultimately incidental and capable of being worked around).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 23 Sep 2004 01:15 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Revisal to the sequence: UX 148 doesn't have any flashbacks, but it does have dialogue establishing that Sean was already in Interpol before marrying Maeve. After their marriage, they went on honeymoon, and then Sean was called up for active duty again. He disappeared for months, and that's when Maeve was killed. So X@ 3/2 has to be shifted back before any of the flashbacks in XFOR 31. 

As for the other flashbacks, both CX 26/2-FB and DPOOL2 2-FB are in the vague bracket of "around twenty years ago", so they can both fit plausibly into the period when Sean was away. GENX 10-FB and GENX 11-FB are "nearly twenty years ago" and involve Sean returning to Cassidy Keep. These could, I suppose, go in the same gap, with the idea being that GENX 11-FB IS Sean returning home and (shortly afterwards) learning that Maeve's dead. But it's a lot simpler to have Sean going rogue shortly after her death. Sean doesn't mention Maeve anywhere in GENX 11-FB, and you'd think she'd be a concern if he was expecting to find her alive in Cassidy Keep when he arrived there tracking a homicidal lunatic. 

So, that gives the following sequence:- 

CX 16/2 
X@ 3/2-FB 
XFOR 31-FB 
CX 26/2-FB 
DPOOL2 2-FB 
XFOR 31-FB 
GENX 10-FB 
GENX 11-FB 
XFOR 31-FB 
GENX -1 
UX 26-BTS 
UX 27-BTS 
UX 28
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 Sep 2004 10:53 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Waitaminute...I got to thinking about comic series staring villians, and I remembered: 

A while back, I seem to recall that the Kingpin series from last year was ruled non-canon, because it contradicted prior stories of the Kingpin. Yet here we have the Emma Frost series contradicting the prior published GENX -1. So wouldn't that comic overrule whatever is shown in Emma Frost, (as far as what's canon)?
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 30 Sep 2004 04:00 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

No, because (a) the writer of EMMA FROST has repeatedly assured readers that these discrepancies will be explained in due course, and (b) EMMA FROST spins off from Emma's background flashbacks in NEW X-MEN. 

In this case, the latter definitely prevails over the former. If the GENERATION X material ultimately proves completely unsalvageable, then it's an outright retcon, and EMMA FROST prevails.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 05 Oct 2004 06:25 pm    
By arthur_phillip_dent

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Waitaminute...I got to thinking about comic series staring villians, and I remembered: 

A while back, I seem to recall that the Kingpin series from last year was ruled non-canon, because it contradicted prior stories of the Kingpin. Yet here we have the Emma Frost series contradicting the prior published GENX -1. So wouldn't that comic overrule whatever is shown in Emma Frost, (as far as what's canon)? 
<<<


GENX -1 should definetely apply to the canon because it sets up her relationship with Dark Beast which is refered to both in other issues of GENX and in X-MAN when she enters Nate's mind to see if he should enter the school.
_________________
Eagles may soar but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

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Posted: 05 Oct 2004 10:13 pm    
By david

So basically the main problem here is: 
Making sure Emma Frost 1 onwards doesn't muck up Gen X -1 in Emma's timeline, right? :wink:

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Posted: 06 Oct 2004 09:15 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

And thus far, it doesn't - it merely requires some dialogue to be disregarded. The thrust of the story in GENX -1 presents no major problems.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 8

Posted: 06 Oct 2004 12:32 pm    Post subject: X 29 - two corrections
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

This one's only recently been added to the MCP. A couple of minor corrections: 

1. Tessa appears on page 12, and ought to be listed. This would fit into the multi-year gap between UX 247 and SMTU 1. 

2. Sebastian Shaw's appearance in X 29-FB is currently listed as preceding L:SS. They should be the other way round - L:SS is Warren Worthington's first visit to the Hellfire Club, and he's there in X 29-FB. (He's also wearing different clothes, so it can't be the same occasion.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 9

Posted: 06 Oct 2004 02:06 am    Post subject: What are the Prime Sentinals listed under?
By arthur_phillip_dent

I've been looking all over for them and can't find them anywhere.
_________________
Eagles may soar but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Oct 2004 09:16 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The MCP only lists individual characters, not groups. So you won't find an entry for the Prime Sentinels as a collective. There might be entries for individual named Prime Sentinels, such as Thunderbird's girlfriend Karima.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 06 Oct 2004 10:23 am    
By Ant-Man

The MCP has a listing for Sentinels, so I can see how the question could arise...
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 06 Oct 2004 02:42 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Yeah, that's a holdover from *years* ago that I keep meaning to delete. 


watching: closing arguments

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Thread 10

Posted: 06 Oct 2004 11:00 am    Post subject: XU 42/3 - placement
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

I'm sure we discussed this back on the old board, but I can't find the thread. What did we decide about the placement of XU 42/3, the story where Jean Grey is given her green Marvel Girl costume? Did it fit just before the issue where Xavier is kidnapped by Factor Three?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 06 Oct 2004 04:20 pm
By ADMINISTRATOR

There's a lengthy discussion from April 2003. 


watching: mary tyler moore

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Posted: 06 Oct 2004 06:11 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Thanks!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 11

Posted: 06 Oct 2004 03:58 pm    Post subject: Emma Frost
By stavesacre79

I read somewhere that the current Emma Frost comic book is part of the Marvel Age world, but it doesn't say so on the covers (as the other Marvel Age comics do.) Does anyone have any reason for believing why that book wouldn't be considered canon?

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Posted: 06 Oct 2004 06:14 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

EMMA FROST is a Marvel Age title, but Marvel Age isn't a separate continuity. It's an imprint covering those titles which are being produced in the manga-style digest format for the bookstore market. Some are canon, some aren't.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 07 Oct 2004 08:53 am    
By stavesacre79

Do you happen to have a list of which Marvel Age titles ARE canon, because I'd like to start collecting those.

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Posted: 07 Oct 2004 09:11 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

JUBILEE, EMMA FROST and THOR: SON OF ASGARD, of the current line. RUNAWAYS and SENTINEL were both Marvel Universe titles which were reprinted under the Marvel Age imprint for their collected editions. 

SPIDER-GIRL is set in a divergent future timeline, and you can decide for yourself whether that constitutes being part of the Marvel Universe or not. 

The others aren't canon.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 12

Posted: 08 Oct 2004 04:31 pm    Post subject: Magneto in X 115
By Dhall

Magneto 
UX 392-FB 
X 112 
UX 393 
X 113 
*X 115 

This was missed. Last panel three pages from the end of the issue. Magneto is in his wheelchair, before the Sentinels strike. 

Dave H

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Thread 13

Posted: 08 Oct 2004 05:57 pm    Post subject: Uatu in Marvel Saga#24; he narrates the whole story
By Enda80

Marvel Saga#24 has an odd surprise; Uatu the Watcher is revealed as the narrator for the whole series, and he appears on the last page 

Marvel Saga#24 came out in December 1987.

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Thread 14

Posted: 24 Sep 2004 09:57 pm    Post subject: Those darn Richards kids
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

The more I follow the adventures of the FF in FOUR (my vote for the code for Marvel Knights 4), the more it's stretching the bounds of continuity. 

We've already discussed the incredibly slow aging of Franklin Richards, but let's turn our attention to his little sister, shall we? In FOUR 4, she's a teething baby; in FOUR 10, she looks like a three-year-old! Does she have the opposite problem from her big brother? Of course we could just insert a lot of time in there, but the problem with that is the FF would have retained their jobs (Reed as an office temp, Ben as a construction worker, etc.) throughout that whole time, despite totally different life situations in their own flagship title and elsewhere. Ugh. 

I'm still managing to make this title work in the canonical MU (for one thing, by chalking up Valeria's physical appearance to artistic license), but it seems to get tougher every month...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Sep 2004 06:07 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

At the moment, I'm working on the provisional assumption that FOUR is non-canon. The genesis of the book, after all, was the desire to take FANTASTIC FOUR in a completely different direction, and the feeling that the material was still worth publishing after that plan was abandoned. I'm inclined to view it as a divergent universe spinning off from roughly the point at which Aguirre-Sacasa would have taken over FF, unless either (a) the book dumps that concept and swerves back in line with mainstream continuity at some point, or (b) another title starts referencing events from FOUR. 

I'm not normally inclined to kick books out of continuity, but this is one which seems to be quite consciously designed to take the characters in an entirely divergent direction.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 25 Sep 2004 09:07 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

You mean I'm spending my hard-earned dough on non-canonical stuff???  
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Sep 2004 08:39 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

I'm tellin ya -- we just declare this puppy non-canonical and that'll keep everybody happy. Roberto can do whatever he wants in his own little sandbox. 

(The FF on cell phones? I mean, come on!)

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Posted: 27 Sep 2004 03:19 pm    
By Jim Smith

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
At the moment, I'm working on the provisional assumption that FOUR is non-canon. The genesis of the book, after all, was the desire to take FANTASTIC FOUR in a completely different direction, and the feeling that the material was still worth publishing after that plan was abandoned. 
<<<

I gave up on the book right after finishing #1, because nothing had happened and I wasn't prepared to spend six months getting to the first plot point. 

So what, exactly, is the direction that takes the book so far from canon? My understanding was that the FF were broke and getting real jobs, but that could theoretically be stuck after Waid brought Ben back from heaven and before he started showing the team recovering financially. Or is the direction so drastically different that this isn't possible? 

I suppose I'm coming in late, but I just find it odd that people are so eager to dump this from canon just because it kinda doesn't match up with the other FF book. From the sound of it, you'd think Sue left Reed for Ben and Franklin is old enough to drive, something irreconcilable like that.

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Posted: 27 Sep 2004 04:20 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

There are actually several issues I have with the book. For the purposes of continuity, there are several issues that make it very difficult to pinpoint chronologically. Off the top of my head... 
The FF lose all their money and Reed takes a job as a computer temp. 
They're evicted from the Baxter Building and living in a cheap apartment. 
There's specific reference to another person as CFO of FF, Inc. The main book made a point of giving that role to Johnny. 
They have access to virtually none of their old equipment. 
Not to mention the fact that Reed is acting nothing like any version of Reed I've ever seen before. 

Where we run into problems are A) because they're evicted from the Baxter Building, the whole series must be relatively self-contained chronologically, B) because Reed so readily comes up with many solutions to financial problems in the main book, it doesn't make sense for this to come after that, but C) Johnny is already established as CFO, and D) Reed's face is all scarred throughout a big portion of Waid's run. Logically, this and the main book don't fit very well togethher at all primamrily because they're taking the same basic plot point -- the FF with no money -- and giving two very different, seemingly simultaneous, sets of stories. 

I believe someone suggested in might fit after FF #511, but I haven't been able to go back to see how many other issues need to be explained away somehow.

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Posted: 28 Sep 2004 04:52 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The problem with MARVEL KNIGHTS 4 is that it changes the entire status quo and set-up of the book, and the changed status quo is the premise of the series, which would suggest that it isn't going to be reversed. (And since it's selling perfectly well, it's not likely to get axed any time soon.) It also requires you to accept the premise that Reed can't simply rebuild their finances by inventing new stuff, which is what worked over in the main title. 

If MK4 does eventually drift back into line with mainstream canon then its canonicity may have to be revisited, but at the moment, this appears to be a book which is consciously and deliberately going its own way and diverging altogether from the mainstream FF title. It's not doing a one-off storyline about the FF losing their money - that's the premise of the book.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 Sep 2004 07:06 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

And we still haven't had official word from Marvel about the canonicity of Marvel Knights 4?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Sep 2004 07:37 am    
By Andy Holcombe

I would be extremely surprised if Marvel ever said that 4 was non-canon. With rare occasions that term has been a book killer.

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Posted: 28 Sep 2004 08:16 am    
By JLH

I say blame Captain Marvel and write-off FOUR as a timeline glitch, ala Absorbing Man.

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Posted: 28 Sep 2004 09:13 am    
By John Simons

This solicit from December has me hopeful that they might finally be wrapping up the "FF: Penniless Losers" storyline. 

MARVEL KNIGHTS 4 #13 
Written by Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa 
Penciled by Jim Muinez 
Cover by Frank Cho 

"Eyes Without a Face" Part 1 (of 2) 
Its good news all around-not just for the FF, who have reclaimed their status as New Yorks premiere super hero team-but for their friend and ally Alicia Masters. After a lifetime of darkness, the blind sculptresss eyesight has been restored by her father Philip Masters-the seemingly reformed villain Puppet Master-but at what cost? Either all is as it seemsor darker forces are at work. 

December 8 :: 32 pages :: Marvel PSR :: $2.99 

The "reclaimed their status" line sounds promising to me!
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 29 Sep 2004 11:01 pm  
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
We've already discussed the incredibly slow aging of Franklin Richards, but let's turn our attention to his little sister, shall we? In FOUR 4, she's a teething baby; in FOUR 10, she looks like a three-year-old! Does she have the opposite problem from her big brother? 
<<<


Well, to be fair, I've noticed the exact same problem in the pages of Waid's Fantastic Four. During the "Unthinkable" storyarc, Valeria was just old enough to utter her first word. Yet in FF 517, when we see Valeria and Franklin out in Halloween costumes, she appears to be around 3 years old, (to me anyway...she's standing on her own, and seems to understand the concept of asking strangers for candy)... 

So how much time has passed in the pages of Waid's FF?
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 30 Sep 2004 09:02 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Admittedly, Val's aged more in the book than would seem appropriate, but I get kids trick or treating at my house every year who aren't even old enough to stand! (Obviously, they're being held by their parents -- who continue to prompt them to say something anyway.) Since Val doesn't actually say anything, I don't know that we can use that as a judge of her age. 

Or, hey, how about this: for Halloween this year, Val dressed up as an older version of herself! 

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2004 05:39 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
The more I follow the adventures of the FF in FOUR (my vote for the code for Marvel Knights 4), the more it's stretching the bounds of continuity. 
<<<

I said that nine months ago! 

Nobody takes me seriously. 

Wah.

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Posted: 08 Oct 2004 10:36 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Admittedly, Val's aged more in the book than would seem appropriate, but I get kids trick or treating at my house every year who aren't even old enough to stand! (Obviously, they're being held by their parents -- who continue to prompt them to say something anyway.) Since Val doesn't actually say anything, I don't know that we can use that as a judge of her age.  
<<<

Actually, I think Val is aging appropriately. I estimate her to be a year and a half old during this Halloween story, and that seems about right. And she has said at least one word so far: "Doom."
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 09 Oct 2004 09:18 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Actually, I think Val is aging appropriately. I estimate her to be a year and a half old during this Halloween story, and that seems about right. And she has said at least one word so far: "Doom." 
<<<

Well, I interpretted that as a result of Doom's magiks. Kind of a way of lauding himself over Reed. 

Kind of minor point, though, given how many conundrums Franklin's given us over the years. 

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Posted: 09 Oct 2004 04:11 pm    Post subject: XX 1-FB-FB
By Dhall

Here's a flashback that isn't in the MCP. 

Mystique 
XU 4-FB 
*XX 1-FB-FB 
S&M 1-FB 
S&M 2-FB
S&M 3-FB 

Destiny 
*XX 1-FB-FB 
S&M 1-FB 
S&M 2-FB 
S&M 3-FB 
XFOR -1 

XX 1-FB-FB: Destiny age 13, writes the diaries, and goes blind. Years later she meets Mystique, who is a consulting detective named Raven Darkholme. Note: There are horses and a trolley car in this flashback.

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Thread 16

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 02:28 am    Post subject: Chronology additions and revision from UX 149-193, @3
By SeanCurtin

**COLOSSO 
UX 22 
UX 94 
CX 2 
UX 110 
UX@ 3 

**DAMIANO, NICK 
UX 184 

DANVERS, JOSEPH "JOE" 
{MSM 13} 
**UX 171 

DANVERS, MARIE (listed as DANVERS, MRS. JOE) 
{MSM 13} 
**UX 171 
IM3 7 

**DZILOS [BROOD] 
UX 162 
UX 163 

FANG II 
UX 157 
**UX 162-FB (transformed into Brood) 
UX 162 (as a Brood) 

LILANDRA NERAMANI [SHI'AR] 
FF 262 
*UX 154-FB (only appears in Corsair's flashback, not in the present) 
UX 156 
UX 157 
UX 158 
UX 161 
**UX 162-FB 
UX 162 

**LOWELL, FRANK 
UX 176 

**KAM'N'EHAR [BROOD] 
UX 155-BTS 
UX 156 
UX 157 
UX 161 
UX 162 

NANNY 
UX 113 
**UX 149 (inert) 
UX 347 

**RODRIGUEZ, JAMIE 
UX 188 
UX 189 
UX 191 
UX 193 

**RODRIGUEZ, TOMAS 
UX 193 

**ROSEN, PHILIP 
UX 186 

SHADOWCAT/KATHERINE "KITTY" PRYDE 
UX 151 
**UX 152-FB (looking out the window after "Storm" leaves) 
UX 151 

**SKUR'KLL [BROOD] 
UX 155 

STARBOLT 
UX 137 
**UX 155 (standing next to Gladiator) 
UX 157 

**T'CRILEE [BROOD] 
UX 164 

WEBWING 
**UX 157 
UX 387 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Posted: 04 Oct 2004 06:55 pm    Post subject: She-Hulk v3
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

OK, I've been doing some thinking about the current She-Hulk series, which has had a lot of people confused with regards to placement. Here's my intial thoughts... 

Okay, She-Hulk is more or less cured in Avengers #75, so the series is definitely after that. That would also explain her... ah... exuberant attitude seen in the first few issues, as she is celebrating her return to "normalcy." We can also use that explanation for her behavior in UXM 435-436. 

Then, we've got an appearance in Alias #28, which features Jack of Hearts, so that's prior to Avengers #76. Which would also explain Ant-Man's foul mood in that issue, since he and Jessica would've just broken up. 

Next, the new series definitely starts before Avengers #500 since there needs to be an Avengers Mansion for Jen to get kicked out of. Given the general drop in the Avengers Q-ratings post-500, it stands to reason that She-Hulk #4 (in which an Avengers' scanner is used to validate Spider-Man's credibility) is also before #500. 

Now, Avengers #77-81 are self-contained and set in England. The She-Hulk series can't really occur during that time period. Likewise with #82-84. But it does appear that Jen is staying at the Mansion, based on her appearances in #83 (that could be up for debate if other reasons warrant) meaning that the She-Hulk series should appear pretty much in its entirety between A3 83 and 500. 

So, I'm suggesting that She-Hulk's (and all those who appear in the following issues) chronology run something like... 

A3 75 
UXM 435-436 
ALIAS 28 
SECWAR (for Cap's continuity) 
A3 76 (placed after SECWAR to account for Cap's sprained arm in this issue. Although it's supposed that this is a result of the fight in A3 75, he clearly does not have such an ailment in ALIAS 28, which must occur before this issue.) 
A3 77-84 
FOUR 1 (Jen may have taken the Leigh kids to Franklin's birthday party to help cheer them up) 
SH3 1-7 
A3 500-503

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2004 11:01 am  
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Couple of clarifications... 

I don't mean to imply that Jen appears in SECWAR. I only placed it in the list to try to put that long string of Avengers issues in some perspective with their other appearances. 

Also, I put She-Hulk #5-7 prior to A3 #500 because Jen is taken into SHIELD custody in A3 #501. This placement also help provide insight into Yellowjacket's temperment in SH3 #5 -- since he would've still be upset with Jan -- as well as why he's still given some degree of clout/credibility in that same issue.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Oct 2004 05:48 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I have quite a different take on this. We've been talking about the whole "Bendis War" thing with ALIAS, etc., and I've proposed a Tony Stark chronology that affects things as well. I have S-H3 1-4 occurring roughly during A/TB, which explains Jennifer's absence from that series. 

FOUR 1 (if canon, the year before everything else, but that's another thread) -- the Leigh kids were present?? 
... 
UX 435-436 
ALIAS 28 
A3 65-76 
UX 442 
S-H3 1-4 
A3 77-84 
S-H3 5-8 
A 500-503 

I'm withholding judgment on the placement of SECWAR.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 08:40 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
FOUR 1 (if canon, the year before everything else, but that's another thread) -- the Leigh kids were present?? 
<<<

We don't see them specifically, but it might help explain why Captain America is at the party. Jen hung out with the FF for a long time so her presence makes sense, but why Cap? It's not like every hero showed up and Cap was among them, there was just Jen and Cap. 

But, as you say, that canonocity of the series is still up for debate at this point. 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
UX 435-436 
ALIAS 28 
A3 65-76 
UX 442 
S-H3 1-4 
A3 77-84 
S-H3 5-8 
A 500-503 
 

I placed the series entirely after A3 84 largely because it appears that SheHulk is still living in the Avengers Mansion as of A3 #83. We have it established that the Leigh kids are residing there during this time, and SheHulk is spending a lot of time with them. Now, admittedly she could stop in every day, but that seems a bit awkward if she's got a 9 to 5 at GLK&H. 

But you say that there's some Iron Man evidence to move things around? I'm not as fluent with him, so what've you got? 
Paul Bourcier wrote: 

I'm withholding judgment on the placement of SECWAR. 
<<<

You're the one who put it on your calendar in the first place! 

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 04:38 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I placed the series entirely after A3 84 largely because it appears that SheHulk is still living in the Avengers Mansion as of A3 #83. We have it established that the Leigh kids are residing there during this time, and SheHulk is spending a lot of time with them. Now, admittedly she could stop in every day, but that seems a bit awkward if she's got a 9 to 5 at GLK&H.  
<<<

I don't get the impression that She-Hulk is living at the Embassy in A3 84. First, she is shown having dinner with some of her teammates there; this can easily occur after she gets home from work, and Cap is there too, and we know from his series that he doesn't live at the Embassy either. Then she is shown playing "monster" with the Leigh kids after dinner. This is one day, and there's no implication that this is an everyday thing. Second, I don't think She-Hulk would be acting like a party girl (with casual sex partners staying over, no less) around the Avengers like she is in S-H3 1 after the Leigh kids move in; bad example and all, you know. That's another reason to put the first She-Hulk story arc before A3 77. 


Quote: 
>>>
But you say that there's some Iron Man evidence to move things around? I'm not as fluent with him, so what've you got?  
<<<

Check out the "Tony Stark's recent chronology" thread in this forum. 


Quote: 
>>>
You're the one who put it on your calendar in the first place!  
<<<

Oh, you're talking about the flashbacks in SECWAR, not the main story. Got it. I have SECWAR flashbacks between ALIAS 28 and A3 65.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Posted: 06 Oct 2004 06:51 pm    Post subject: Character addition: Dianne Bellamy
By shandrakor

She was a briefly recurring character, a reporter for KL17 news, covering the separation of Bruce Banner from the Hulk, and the subsequent hunt after Hulk escaped. 

Bellamy, Diane 
H2 315 
H2 316 
H2 317 
H2 320 
H2 321 
H2 322 
H2 323 
H2 341

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 11:51 pm    Post subject: Character Addition: Half-Life / Masterson, Tony
By shandrakor

Dead body that reanimates only at night, was created by additional gamma bomb tests. His first apperance was as a solo one-shot baddy, and was briefly brought back as Leader's henchman. 

I don't have any of the issues for the character listed as "Halflife," but this one is so self-contained within Hulk that I very much doubt that they're the same character. 

Half-Life / Masterson, Tony 
H2 334 
H2 340 
H2 342-FB 
H2 342

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Oct 2004 12:37 am    
By John Simons

You're right, they're not.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Posted: 11 Oct 2004 02:20 pm    Post subject: Dracula in MS. MARVEL 23?
By Gorgo

I'm updating my Dracula run, so I checked Drac's chronology to see if there are any holes in my set I wasn't aware of. I came across an entry for a Dracula appearance in MS. MARVEL 23. I didn't recall any such appearance, and, indeed, when I pulled out MSM 23, I found no sign of Drac. So was it the wrong issue? Wrong series? Wrong altogether? 

Gorgo

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Oct 2004 03:00 pm    
By Ant-Man

I know he had a cameo appearance in Ms. Marvel #14, but I don't remember him in #23...
_________________
-Brian Cook-

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Posted: 11 Oct 2004 08:36 pm    Post subject: Betty Dean
By theManThing

I noticed that there are only 2 entries under her name: 

DEAN, BETTY 
INV 29-FB 
INV 4 

I just bought Super-Villain Team-Up #2 in which she appears and dies in. 

I think she also appears in the background in one of the panels in "Marvels" when they show Namor. It's around the time of the Hammond/Namor feud in "Marvels".

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Oct 2004 09:09 pm    
By Ant-Man

Look at her entry under PRENTISS, BETTY DEAN 

She first appeared in Marvel Mystery Comics #3 (January 1940)
_________________
-Brian Cook-

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Oct 2004 09:22 pm    
By theManThing

oop. My mistake. Sorry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Oct 2004 10:02 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

No need to apologize. You've alerted us to a mistake. We need to merge the Betty Dean and Betty Prentiss chronologies. 


watching: green bay v. tennessee

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Posted: 04 Sep 2004 09:12 am    Post subject: Kate Frasier/Fraser
By Dhall

FRASER, DET. KATE 
CB 5 
CB 8 

FRASIER, KATE 
M/PRV 3 

Despite the spelling change, this is the same character, and the listings should be combined. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Sep 2004 02:01 pm    
By whoisthedoctor

Incidentally, is this the same Kate Fraser who guest stars in Giant-Size Dracula #2?

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Sep 2004 04:51 pm    
By Dhall

I don't have that issue, but if she is a London policewoman/psychic who sometimes gets involoves in fighting vampires, then yes it is, and that appearance should be added to her listing. 

By the way, is Dai Thomas in that issue too? 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Sep 2004 01:24 pm    
By Ant-Man

No. Kate's partner against Y'Garon is a Scotland Yard inspector named Chelm. 

She also appeared with him in Giant-Size Dracula #3 

Inspector Chelm appeared in 7 issues of Tomb of Dracula; Giant-Size Chillers #1; Giant-Size Dracula #2, 3 -- and as far as I can tell, they never game him a FIRST NAME !! 


_________________
-Brian Cook-

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Sep 2004 06:06 pm    
By Dhall

Did Kate appear in any other issues? 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Sep 2004 01:01 pm    
By Ant-Man

As far as I can tell, she only appeared in the Captain Britain stories, Giant-Size Dracula #2, Giant-Size Dracula #3, and Marvel Preview #3
_________________
-Brian Cook-

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Sep 2004 03:08 pm    
By Dhall

I've ordered the Draculas, becuase I'm just taht obsessive. Kate is in two Captain Britain issues, then as far as I know, never appears again. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Sep 2004 03:21 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Man, where do you guys get your money? 

You and Ant-Man -- you hear about a comic you like, boom, you order it the next day. I wish I could afford that -- I have to wait every two months until the local comic show comes to town and then scrounge through the 50-cent bins. 

I think we should set something up so that the rich MCP posters have to buy comics for the poorer MCP posters. All in the name of enabling chronological research, of course. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Sep 2004 03:39 pm    
By Ant-Man

Actually, I just got my latest shipment from Mile High Comics. 
121 new comics...oh, the joy!...I love getting a big batch of new stuff to read. And, the whole thing cost me $127...when you do the math, that's not too bad per book. MHC has been running some good sales lately. 

I'm lucky that I've got good sources close by for back issues. Lone Star Comics (www.mycomicshop.com) has 3 locations within 25 minutes of my house, and Titan Comics (the largest back issue selection in Texas at 70,000+ issues) is about 30 minutes away. 

And just to be fair...I still haven't gotten a copy of Wolverine #102.5 
But I will... 
_________________
-Brian Cook-

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2004 03:42 pm    
By Dhall


>>>
Man, where do you guys get your money? 
<<<


Um, by not going to the Bahamas? heh heh 

I order all of my comics from Lone Star, I usually wait until they have a 50% off back issue sale, and I have it all sent with my new comic order, thus I pay no postage costs for back issue comics, just what I pay for new comics. The only drawback is that I am getting my comics only every two weeks, as I don't want to pay more for weekly shipping. 

I find this arrangement to be much easier than going to the local comic stores, I don't miss anything, and the discount on new comics usually makes up for the shipping costs. 

Back on topic, is there a code for Giant-Size Dracula? All I see in the key is Giant-Size Tomb of Dracula? I am assuming that this is the same series, as I can't find any records of Marvel publishing a Giant-Size Tomb of Dracula. 

FRASER, DET. KATE 
*GSTOD 2 
*GSTOD 3 
M/PRV 3 
CB 5 
CB 8 

I wonder what ever happened to Kate Fraser? 
Oh, and Fraser is the correct spelling, per her first app. in GSTOD 2. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 08:38 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Hey -- that entire eight-day trip cost me a total of $600. Including the plane fare.  (A friend's parents gave him their time-share, and he invited us -- so the resort was basically free!) I'd say that was money well-spent. 

And now I'm the only person in New England with a healthy tan in October.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 08:39 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
And just to be fair...I still haven't gotten a copy of Wolverine #102.5 
But I will...  
<<<

Heyyy ... *I* have that!  

I win! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 08:41 am    
By Dhall

Yeah, definitly money well spent....I rented a cbain up in Northern Minnesota for a few days....since it's off season, it was perfect solitude.....definitly a good thing!

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Posted: 03 Oct 2004 05:44 pm    Post subject: Excalibur 26
By Dhall

This is listed as being between Excal 11 and 12, which isn't true, nothing can be set in that time, because the team as transported to the cross-time caper at the end of #11. 


Now Excal 26, can't go between pages of Excalibur 11 either, as do Excal 20, and MM (those are both incorrectly listed as being between 11 and 12, by the way.) because MOira appears in Excal 26, and she is a prisoner of Nazi Excalibur betwen issues 9 and 11, and therfore not available to appear in this story. The team is in America for Excal 6-9, so pushing it up really doesn't help. 

So, this again has to take place after Excal 34 (as Kitty is with the team.) 
That also puts it a lot closer to publication order. 

We could put it before or after that years x-men annuals, but since Russ wants us to put the M/CP 31-38 story before them, we might as well place this story before the annuals, and after the MCP Story. 

It doesn't change Mastermind's listing. 

Shadowcat: 
XCAL 34 
XSOS 2 
M/CP 31/4 
M/CP 32 
M/CP 33 
M/CP 34 
M/CP 35 
M/CP 36 
M/CP 37 
M/CP 38 
*XCAL 26 
T 427 
T 428 
T 429 

Nightcrawler: 
XCAL 34 
XSOS 2 
M/CP 31/4 
M/CP 32 
M/CP 35 
M/CP 36 
M/CP 37 
M/CP 38 
*XCAL 26 
T 427 
T 428 
T 429 

Lockheed: 
XCAL 34 
XSOS 2 
M/CP 31/4 
M/CP 32 
M/CP 37 
M/CP 38 
*XCAL 26 
T 427 
T 428 
T 429 

Phoenix III: 
XCAL 34 
XSOS 2 
M/CP 31/4 
M/CP 32 
M/CP 36 
M/CP 37 
M/CP 38 
*XCAL 26 
FF@ 23 
XF@ 5 
UX@ 14 
UX@ 14/2 
UX@ 14 
T 427 
T 428 
T 429 


Meggan: 
XCAL 34 
XSOS 2 
M/CP 31/4 
M/CP 32 
M/CP 34 
M/CP 35 
M/CP 36 
M/CP 37 
M/CP 38 
*XCAL 26 
FF@ 23 
T 427 
T 428 
T 429 


Captain Britain: 
XCAL 34 
XSOS 2 
M/CP 31/4 
M/CP 32 
M/CP 33 
M/CP 34 
M/CP 35 
M/CP 36 
M/CP 37 
M/CP 38 
*XCAL 26 
T 427 
T 428 
T 429 

Widget: 
XCAL 30 
XSOS 2 
M/CP 31/4 
M/CP 32 
M/CP 37 
M/CP 38 
*XCAL 26 
S-H2 26-FB 
S-H2 26 

Moira MacTaggert 
NM 89 
*XCAL 26 
UX 269 
UX 271 
UX 273 


Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 08:42 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Hee! I pointed that out to Russ in private e-mail about five years ago. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Posted: 03 Oct 2004 07:59 pm    Post subject: Breaks in Excalibur 11
By Dhall

Breaks in Excalibur 11 

There is a lot going on between pages of this listing, Excalibur: Mojo Mayhem, Excalibur 20, and X-Men: True Friends all have to happen within its pages. I will come back and explain why this is true for each one of these books, but for now I want to concentrate on exploring the time gaps in Excalibur 11, so we can see when and why there is enough space for each book, and where they fit the best. 

Excalibur 11 

Pages 1-9: Monday Morning 
Phoenix and Kitty fly home to the lighthouse. Nigel has his meeting with Sat-yr-9. 
Phoenix and Kitty find Lockheed, who is injured after the Nazi Excaliburs attack. 

A Few Days pass between Pages 9 and 10 

Pages 10-14: A rainy night, Alistaire Stuart comes to visit Phoenix. Kitty is still nursing a sick Lockheed. Alistaire comments that the negotiations to exchange the Nazi Excalibur for Moira and Calisto are proceeding apace. Kittys mad that the government is just going to let them go. Alistaire drops off Widget, who is inert. He hasnt been able to even get in the casing, and think Kitty might like to try. Kitty offers to make soup. Everyone leaves the room, and Widget opens its eyes. 

In Scotland Yard, theres a subplot with the rest of Excalibur and their Nazi counterparts, including Alysande.. 

Page 15 is listed as the next morning after Page 14 
Page 15-17: Lockheed is up and flying, Kitty is trying on clothes, Ray is showing Alistaire around the lighthouse grounds, Kitty gets transported, without her clothes to a world where there is an animal version of Excalibur, then back to the Lighthouse, where still being nude, Alistaire and Rachel get a good look. Kitty phases through the floor to avoid them. 


Page 18 is Considerably later than page 17 

Page 18: Alistaire has returned to London, Kitty contemplates Widget, Lockheed has recovered, and Rachel tells Kitty that she has a call from Nightcrawler and they are needed. 

Page 19 is Later Still than Page 18: 

The Exchange, Lockheed discovers the big grey dragon is the power source for the train, Kitty refuses to send him back with the Nazi team. A portal is opened up, the exchange takes place, The Nazi Moira sends a micro nuke back through the portal, Phoenix tries to contain the explosion, this interacts with Widget, and transports the whole of Excalibur, Alistaire Stuart, and the Nazi train with the big dragon in it off to the cross time caper. 

Pages 19-22 have no break, and leas right into Excalibur 12 and the Cross-Time Caper. NO books can come in between Page 19 of Excal 11 and the end of the cross time caper. 


Now its pretty much already accepted that Excalibur: MM and XCAL 20 go in between breaks in Xcal 11, so Im going to concentrate on the when. 

XCAL: MM 

There are two flashbacks in this issue, which are not indexed in the MCP. Both proceed the main part of XCAL:MM 

Page 14-Page 16: Kitty decides to go to a jazz concert, leaving the rest of Excalibur at the lighthouse. 
Page 17 Panel 7-Page 19 Panel 1: Kitty attends a jazz concert. 

The Fb on Pages 14-16 includes: Kitty, Rachel, Alistaire, Lockheed (well enough to fly), Captain Britain, Nightcrawler, Meggan, and Widget. There are references to Kitty going off to have the wildest of weekends, references to the current situation. 

The FB on Page 17-19: Just has Kitty at a concert. 

The caption on Page 13 says that This story occurs amidst the events of XCAL 10 and 11 Kitty thinks about encountering the Nazi version of herself. 

Since Lockheed is up and about, and Widget is at the light house, this issue has to occur between pages 17 and 18 of Excalibur 11. (It could be between pages 14 and 15, but we would have to throw out the next morning reference on page 15 of XCAL 11. Also Lockheed is up and flying by Page 17 of XCAL 11, so this placement makes the most sense.) 
The whole issue can take place in a night and a day. 

Excalibur 20 is an untold tale from Before the Cross Time Caper 
If Widget were not in this issue, I would be tempted to place it between XCAL 3 and 4, but since he is, this issue has to take place AFTER Alistaire drops him off in Xcal 11. Also Widget is up and running! (Kitty and Brian make a device to hook up to him.) This means it has to take place after XCAL: MM. 

It also has to take place after Page 18 of Excalibur 11(because Widget is up and running), which begs the question of what the call from Nightcrawler is about, but if we theorize that it has to do with Meggans condition (as seen in XCAL 20) then this works out. 

XCAL 20 takes place over two nights. 

So what we have (so far) is: 
XCAL 11 Pages 1-9 
XCAL 11 Pages 10-14 
XCAL 11 Pages 15-17 
XCAL:MM 
XCAL 11 Page 18 
XCAL 20 
XCAL 11 Pages 19-22 
XCAL 12 (Cross-Time Caper) 

Now, what I am going to argue next is that X-Men: True Friends also has to go in this gap, and it has to go right after Xcal 20. 

X-Men: True Friends was originally written and penciled in 1990, and sat on the shelf until 1999, when it was pulled from the archives and published. It was originally going to be published as Excalibur Special Edition 3 and 4. 

This story is referenced in Excalibur 22 (during the Cross-Time Caper) so it has to come before that issue, which also means that it has to come before the caper, and since Alysande appears in it, it has to come after Excalibur 9 and 10, where they meet her. 

The reference in #22 is this: Phoenix is talking about an encounter she had with the Shadow King in her past, as a kid. The Shadow King said: At last my precious a moment Ive been eagerly anticipating since before your parents were born. Rachels caption box says I didnt understand what he meant, then. The editorial box refers confused readers to Excalibur Special Edition 3 and 4, on sale this spring and summer, and were never published. 

X-Men: True Friends makes sense out of this reference, as if Phoenix encountered Farouk in the past, then he has been waiting for revenge since before her parents were born. 

Note though, that present-day Logan shows up in issue #3, and Kitty and Rachel just accept that hes alive, which they really should be surprised about at this point. 

Also , the series is set in 1936, but features a Wolverine who has admantium claws, and is not afraid to use them. He hasnt met Kitty or the X-Men yet. Logan has to be doing some time travel himself in this series, as he didnt have admantium back in 1936 (though its never stated that he is time traveling, he does have to be.) 

So, where in Excalibur 11 should this go? None of the rest of the team, besides Kitty and Rachel are in this, not even Lockheed, so it could go any night, where Kitty and Ray can take a night away from the team together. To Keep it as early as possible, to not have Lockheed present (due to his injuries) and to not have the rest of the team around, Im placing this between Pages 9 and 10 of Excalibur 11, where we have a few days to play with. 



Going on the assumption that XM:TF 1-3 do occur between pages of Excal 11, gives us this: 

XCAL 11 Pages 1-9 
XM:TF 1 
XM:TF 2 
XM:TF 3 
XCAL 11 Pages 10-14 
XCAL 11 Pages 15-17 
XCAL:MM -FB 
XCAL:MM 
XCAL 11 Page 18 
XCAL 20 
XCAL 11 Pages 19-22 
XCAL 12 (Cross-Time Caper) 


Ill write up True Friends for the issue analysis when I get back in town. 
Not including True Friends (until it is analyzed) gives us the following chronology changes: 

Captain Britain 
XCAL 11 
* XCAL:MM-FB 
XCAL:MM 
XCAL 20 
*XCAL 11 
XCAL 12 

Lockheed 
XCAL 11 
* XCAL:MM-FB 
XCAL:MM 
*XCAL 11 
XCAL 20 
*XCAL 11 
XCAL 12 

Meggan 
XCAL 11 
* XCAL:MM-FB 
XCAL:MM 
XCAL 20 
*XCAL 11 
XCAL 12 

Nightcrawler 
XCAL 11 
* XCAL:MM-FB 
XCAL:MM 
XCAL 20 
*XCAL 11 
XCAL 12 

Phoenix III 
XCAL 11 
(X-Men True Friends 1-3 will go here, when analyzed) 
*XCAL 11 
* XCAL:MM-FB 
XCAL:MM 
*XCAL 11 
XCAL 20 
* XCAL 11 
XCAL 12 

Shadowcat 
XCAL 11 
(X-Men True Friends 1-3 will go here, when analyzed) 
*XCAL 11 
*XCAL:MM-FB 
XCAL:MM 
*XCAL 11 
XCAL 20 
*XCAL 11 
XCAL 12 

Stuart, Brig. Alysande 
XCAL 10 
(X-Men True Friends 3 will go here, when analyzed) 
XCAL 11 
XCAL:MM 
*XCAL 11 
XCAL 27 

Stuart, Dr. Alistaire 
XCAL 11 
* XCAL:MM-FB 
XCAL:MM 
*XCAL 11 
XCAL 12 

Widget 
XCAL 11 
* XCAL:MM-FB 
XCAL:MM 
*XCAL 11 
XCAL 20 
*XCAL 11 
XCAL 12 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2004 12:27 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Not sure I follow your logic about X-MEN: TRUE FRIENDS. The story is referenced during the Cross Time Caper, true, but only as an upcoming issue which will explain a flashback scene. Does anything in the Cross Time Caper establish that RACHEL now understands (correctly) what the Shadow King was referring to? If not, then the story should be placed much later so that the Excalibur characters are reacting appropriately to Wolverine's appearance.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Oct 2004 02:36 pm    
By Dhall

quote:
>>>
Does anything in the Cross Time Caper establish that RACHEL now understands (correctly) what the Shadow King was referring to?
<<<

Yes, the dialogue on page 7 of Excalibur #22, does indeed establish that Rachel now understands what the Shadow King was referring to. 

I didnt understand what he meant, then. Rachel 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Oct 2004 03:19 pm    Post subject: Seems to be Courtney Ross in Excalibur#20
By Enda80

It seems to be Courtney Ross in Excalibur#20. A note in that issue places it before the Cross-Time Caper, and Ross' presence would place it much earlier than Excalibur I#11 (which the MCP places it inbetween.) In a thought balloon the platinum haired woman thinks "Brian doesn't need anything more to worry him"-I'd imagine that an icognito Sat-Tyr-9 would not have been so caring in her thoughts. 

Problem; the real Courtney Ross died in issue 5-and was replaced by Sat-Tyr-9, as noted. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/rosscourtney.htm

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Oct 2004 04:17 pm    
By Dhall

quote:
>>>
If Widget were not in this issue, I would be tempted to place it between XCAL 3 and 4, but since he is, this issue has to take place AFTER Alistaire drops him off in Xcal 11. Also Widget is up and running! (Kitty and Brian make a device to hook up to him.) This means it has to take place after XCAL: MM.
<<<


quote:
>>>
It seems to be Courtney Ross in Excalibur#20.
<<<


Like I said, if Widget was not present, I would put this between XCAL 3 and 4, and say that it's the real Courntey Ross. It cannot be the real thing though, as Widget appears in this issue, so it must come after Courtney is replaced by Sat-YR-9. 

Also, there's no evidence that Brian was having an affair with the Real Courtney in Excalibur 1-4 (and cheating on Meggan.) This is something that started AFTER she was replaced by Sat-YR-9. 

Dave H

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 10:58 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Is there anything preventing us from ignoring the footnote and placing Excalibur #20 AFTER the Caper? 

Given that Widget wasn't shown as awake in any other pre-Caper appearance -- and he's awake here -- after the Caper seems the most likely spot for this issue. 

Workable? 

-Jeph!

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Thread 25

Posted: 08 Oct 2004 07:03 pm    Post subject: Questioning N'astirh's appearances
By electronicLad

Hi all, 
I've been trying to read my inferno issues in some semblance of order (god help me). i've consulted a number of sites, as well as the chronology information and an excellent X-men reading order provided by someone here. 

But I hit a snag and was wondering if it had been disucussed or explained elsewhere. The chronology displays Nastirh's appearances as 

PP 40 
XF 32 
PP 42-FB 
UX 236 
XTERM 1 

The problem I see is that in X-terminators 1 - S'ym is shown giving N'astirh the instructions to steal 13 babies. 
In X-Factor 32, N'astirh is contacted by Hodge, and N'astirh says ' the one I serve requires infants'. 

Unless this is something explained in the Power Pack issues, which I have never read, I believe the scene in X-terminators must take place 'in the past' some time before XFactor 32 (although the rest of the comic can not for reasons I won't go in to).

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Posted: 09 Oct 2004 05:31 pm    
By shandrakor

During the scene between Hodge and N'astirh in XF 32, N'astirh is currently located in limbo. 

p27.pn1. N'astirh: "It is...most unusual...for us in Limbo to recieve a call from your dimension" 

At the start of X-T 1, N'astirh is commanded to collect the 13 babies, and then immediately transported to Earth. 

There does exist room in X-T 1 to allow the first scene to come early, since there's already a "7 days later" partway through the issue, so the Inferno problems don't start immediately after N'astirh reaches Earth. 

Two possible solutions: 
1) N'astirh was told of S'ym's plan previously, was contacted by Hodge, and S'ym was simply reiterating the plan before he sent them away. This seems like the most self-consistant way. 

2) pp.1-5 of X-T 1 occur prior to the end of XF 32. This is harder to justify, since N'astirh would have to have meant "those of us FROM limbo" instead of "IN limbo." Additionally, how did Hodge know to contact N'astirh at the graveyard where he was hiding out? 

I vote for leaving the chronology as it's currently listed, and assume that S'ym was just repeating himself, which wouldn't be out of character.

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 12:05 pm    
By electronicLad

You brought up an interesting point which would definately support your theory- which I will pay attention too next time I look at this: 

Once N'astirh arrives on earth - does he stay there for the duration of the Inferno story? I'm not sure if he can pop back and forth, or if he is essentially stuck on earth. (I'm rusty on my black magic. :evil: )

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 12:55 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Inferno needs a huge overhaul. This used to be our mythical "next project" after the Kang War was wrapped up -- in fact, I made quite a few notes on it at the time -- but as usual around here we never actually came to a *consensus* on the Kang War, and other things distracted us... 

I'd like to get back to discussing Inferno at some point. There's a lot of meaty stuff there. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 01:11 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
but as usual around here we never actually came to a *consensus* on the Kang War, and other things distracted us... 
<<<


Hunh. I thought it was resolved. 


watching: live from...

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 07:09 pm    
By Dhall

Dare I ask this? Briefly, what is wrong with Inferno? (Forseeing a need to dig through a lot of books....) 

I vote for a Wolverine overhaul myself.....

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 09:29 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Briefly, it's a mess. 

And as for the Kang War, we all sort of stopped talking about it -- and Paul continued to tinker and tinker with his calendar -- but I feel like the conversation just fizzled out, as opposed to everyone actually agreeing on everything. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 09:50 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Briefly, it's a mess. 

And as for the Kang War, we all sort of stopped talking about it -- and Paul continued to tinker and tinker with his calendar -- but I feel like the conversation just fizzled out, as opposed to everyone actually agreeing on everything. 
<<<


Well, I thought we had solved the "Hank Pym costume dilemma" which was perhaps the main problem as far as placement, and so therefore we all came to agreement. I thought we put this behind us!!!!  


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Hunh. I thought it was resolved. 
<<<


Agreed. C'mon, Jeph, we've got the Bendis War to worry about now!!! Screw this Kang and Inferno business! :wink:
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Thread 26

Posted: 13 Oct 2004 10:02 pm    Post subject: Revisions in the Black Panther's origin & early years
By SeanCurtin

BLACK PANTHER/T'CHALLA 
FFU 1/2-FB (don't have it; presumably it shows T'Challa's birth) 
BP3 27-FB (newborn) 
JA 15-FB (don't have it) 
FF 53-FB (young T'Challa and his father) 
BP3 5-FB (T'Challa encounters Hunter as the White Wolf; Hunter was made the leader of the Hatut Zeraze shortly before T'Challa's death according to dialogue in later issues) 
FF 53-FB (T'Challa hears gunshots from Klaw's men and assumes his father to be dead, then tells the soldiers to retreat) 
BP3 5-FB (T'Challa runs to his father and, seeing him alive, calls out to him; T'Chaka has Zuri take T'Challa away as Klaw uses the sound blaster to kill the remaining Wakandan warriors) 
FF 53-FB (T'Challa grieves over his father's body, then sneaks up on the men guarding the sound blaster) 
BP3 5-FB (T'Challa knocks out the guard) 
FF 53-FB (T'Challa takes the sound blaster and confronts Klaw's men) 
BP3 5-FB (dialogue between Klaw and T'Challa as the latter activates the sound blaster) 
FF 53-FB (T'Challa uses the sound blaster on Klaw and his men) 
BP3 5-FB (sound blaster overloads; later, T'Chaka's funeral) 
BP3 12-FB (behind Hunter at the funeral) 
A 87-FB, etc. 

KLAW/ULYSSES KLAW 
FFU 1/2-FB (don't have it) 
{FF 53-FB} (men enter Wakanda and confront T'Chaka) 
BP3 5-FB (Klaw shoots a subordinate and activates the sound blaster) 
BP3 27-FB-BTS (the sound blaster's energies kill T'Chaka) 
BP3 5-FB (directs his men to destroy the village) 
FF 53-FB (oversees the destruction of the village) 
BP3 5-FB (confronted by T'Challa) 
FF 53-FB (crippled by T'Challa) 
A 87-FB-BTS, etc. 

N'YAMI (T'Challa's biological mother; new entry) 
BP3 12-FB (with Hunter) 
BP3 27-FB-BTS (revealed to have died in childbirth) 

RAMONDA 
M/CP 37/2-FB 
BP3 10-FB 
BP3 12-FB 
M/CP 37/2-FB 
M/CP 35/2-BTS 
M/CP 36/2-BTS 
M/CP 37/2 
BP3 1, etc 

T'CHAKA 
FF 53-FB (T'Chaka as chieftain but not as Black Panther) 
BP3 30-FB (T'Chaka meets Captain America circa 1941) 
BP3 27-FB (Hunter hunts alongside T'Chaka) 
FFU 1/2-FB (don't have this issue so can't verify its chronology, but if it features T'Challa then it needs to occur between flashbacks in BP3 27) 
BP3 27-FB (T'Challa is born) 
BP3 12-FB-BTS (Hunter and Ramonda; T'Chaka not seen) 
FF 53-FB (T'Chaka and youthful T'Challa; Klaw arrives in Wakanda, confronts T'Chaka) 
FF 53-FB-BTS ~ BP3 5-FB (T'Challa leads warriors against Klaw; T'Challa hears gunshots from the battle and believes the king dead by them) 
BP3 5-FB (T'Chaka sends Zuri to protect T'Challa; Klaw uses the sound blaster on the assembled Wakandans) 
BP3 27-FB (T'Chaka is struck by the sound blaster's energy) 
FF 53-FB (T'Challa grieves over his father's body) 
BP3 5-FB (funeral; body seen by T'Challa) 
BP3 12-FB (funeral; body seen by Hunter) 

-Sean

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Posted: 14 Oct 2004 06:14 am    
By Enda80

FFUnlimited#1 actually revealed that Nick Fury's Foe Klaue was Klaw's father.

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 09:52 pm    Post subject: District X and UX 450
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

District X references in this week's UX 450 lead me to the hunch that UX 450 occurs after the first story arc (issues #1-6) of District X. Can someone confirm this? Perhaps PopularLoser's upcoming analysis of District X #1-6 will shed light on the chronology here. Issue #6 is out this Wednesday.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 10 Oct 2004 11:41 pm    
By shandrakor

I'm tempted to say that District X starts after UX 450. 

First, the mutant guy at the morgue contacts the X-Men directly to deal with this likely mutant-related crime. After District X starts, I would expect them to pull in Bishop, and he might contact the XSE himself. 

More importantly, Bishop is costumed all wrong. After joining the police in District X, he wears all black street clothes with a trench, though he does wear an X belt buckle. Basically, he's trying to fit in as a regular police detective, if a self-declared badass one. In UX 450, he's shown in an obvious costume, black with a red vertical stripe, red gloves and prominant X logo on the breast. 

Unless there's some significant change coming in DX 6 that catches us all by surprise, I have a hard time seeing Bishop running off with his X-buddies to beat info out of an informant rather than doing it with his partner and then passing the information along. DX just portrays Bishop as playing too "by the rules" for that.

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Posted: 11 Oct 2004 06:04 pm    
By PopularLoser

I won't get this issue until later this week. Expect a full review by next week.
_________________
<Insert Signature Here>

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Posted: 11 Oct 2004 08:01 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
More importantly, Bishop is costumed all wrong. After joining the police in District X, he wears all black street clothes with a trench, though he does wear an X belt buckle. Basically, he's trying to fit in as a regular police detective, if a self-declared badass one. In UX 450, he's shown in an obvious costume, black with a red vertical stripe, red gloves and prominant X logo on the breast.  
<<<


Okay, but doesn't Bishop wear that "District X" get-up in XU2 2, the story that shows his "first time in Mutant Town" (and thus before UX 450)? I was under the impression that he splits his time between the X-Men and being a cop in District X, and with different jobs come different uniforms. 

One thing in UX 450 that led me to believe that DX 1-6 occur before UX 450: Bishop tells informant Carl, "I thought we had an arrangement." That implies he's been in District X before, and I figured Carl for a character introduced in DX 1-6.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 11 Oct 2004 09:06 pm    
By shandrakor

Well, you're right. I'd forgotten that XU2 2 explicitly stated that it was Bishop's first trip to Mutant Town. How inconvenient. 

Carl isn't a character that's been established in DX, thus far anyway. 

There's no good reason to place UX 450 between XU2 2 and DX 1-6, so it'll have to go afterwards. 

As a suggestion, we may want to try sliding DX as far back on the calendar as we can, making room for additional storylines in that book to hopefully put this appearance in better context.

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Posted: 11 Oct 2004 09:52 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
There's no good reason to place UX 450 between XU2 2 and DX 1-6, so it'll have to go afterwards. 

As a suggestion, we may want to try sliding DX as far back on the calendar as we can, making room for additional storylines in that book to hopefully put this appearance in better context. 
<<<


I'll hold off on placement until PopularLoser submits his analysis of DX 1-6. That also means setting aside UX 450 for the time being and adding that after DX 1-6 get placed.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Oct 2004 02:06 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The X-Men Unlimited story appears to fit somewhere during the first District X arc, since while it's Bishop's first visit to the district, he knows the names of the major crimelords - something he doesn't find out until Izzy gives him a tour in District X #2. 

Uncanny X-Men #450 shows Bishop with at least one established contact on the streets of District X, so it must follow District X #1-6. (Well, you could probably shoehorn it in earlier if you really wanted, but there's no need to break up the storyline, as far as I can see.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Thread 28

POLL: Should the Venom entry be split betwen the Symbiote, Brock, and Venom?
YES: 19
NO: 1
DON'T CARE: 0

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 02:08 pm    Post subject: Venom/Symbiote/Eddie Brock chronology question
By lkseitz

Can someone clarify the Venom chronology entry for me? My knowledge of Venom is limited. Does it treat the appearances of Venom, the alien symbiote (black costume), and Eddie Brock as a single entity? It looks to me like appearances of Spider-Man's black costume are mostly treated as BTS appearances. Then it lists ASM 258 as the first appearance. 

To the best of my knowledge, Venom didn't come about until after WOSM 1, which is listed after ASM 258. So I presume ASM 258 is actually Brock's first appearance. Then I see there's also a single UTSM entry under plain old Eddie Brock (with a link to the Venom entry). So I'm hopelessly confused at this point. Would it be too much to ask that the entries be split between "Alien Symbiote Costume [or Spider-Man Symbiote Costume or something like that]", "Eddie Brock," and "Venom"? The former two would both end with "See Venom," much like when a character changes their codename. 

Ooh, let's try this poll thing!
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Aug 2004 02:39 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I think plans are in the works. I know it's been discussed before. 

I personally think there should be a bunch of entries: BROCK, EDDIE and VENOM SYMBIOTE, which should both end with "see Venom" for when they meet. Then there's this clone running around on the body of Patricia Robertson in the "Venom" comic, which I'd list as VENOM SYMBIOTE II [CLONE]. 

VENOM should begin with "from Brock, Eddie, and Venom symbiote" or somesuch ... there was a thread a while back about how to list characters that merge and split from one another, but (as usual around here) nothing conclusive came of it. 

I know Eddie and the symbiote have split a few times, but they always end up back together ... are there any times where they've split, and Eddie OR the symbiote has appeared in a comic -- but not both? We may have to have the "VENOM" entry split back into Eddie and the symbiote, track them separately for a bit, then re-merge the listings... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Aug 2004 02:48 pm    
By Ant-Man

Venom: Separation Anxiety had them split for issues 2 and 3 (reuniting in issue #4), but both Brock and the symbiote appeared.
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 26 Aug 2004 02:57 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

In that case, I'd probably leave their listings joined as "VENOM", just for simplicity's sake. 

If, however, they split and only Eddie appeared for a few issues before they rejoined ... then I'd want to reflect that in the MCP by temporarily splitting their listings for the occasion. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Aug 2004 05:59 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Keep in mind that, while we're not bound by the results of polls, we will take them under honest consideration. 


watching: lizzie mcguire

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Posted: 26 Aug 2004 06:03 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

By now, it's pretty clearly established that the symbiote has a mind and personality of its own, independent of Eddie. They also both have a history prior to becoming Venom, which ought to be listed separately. 

My instinct is that they've been separated frequently enough that they deserve separate listings. They ARE two different characters, they just happen to work together regularly. 

That admittedly creates a problem with deciding who to attribute the codename to, but no more so than with duo characters like the Fenris twins. Although Venom now seems to be relatively settled as the name of the symbiote, rather than the name of Eddie.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 26 Aug 2004 11:12 pm    
By JLH

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
My instinct is that they've been separated frequently enough that they deserve separate listings. They ARE two different characters, they just happen to work together regularly. 
<<<


Something similar would need be done to four of the other five symbiote-offsprings from "Lethal Protector". Aside from the Yellow one, the four ended up combining into the entity known as Hybrid. Hybird then joined with a former Vault Guardsman, who had appeared solo a long while prior, in an issue of New Warriors. But the current listing for Hybrid lacks any lack of symbiote distinction, nor that the symbiotes are merged form of the four. 

A little tougher would be Carnage. His original symbiote was destroyed, only to have it somehow live on within his bloodstream. Venom ended up eating it out of him, leaving Kletus to hunt down a new symbiote, which just so happen to be of the same color scheme as the old one.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Aug 2004 03:40 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

I'm not too familiar with Carnage, but I'm not sure his symbiotes have ever shown quite the same level of free will or independent thought as Venom's. (The Venom symbiote has the unusual aspect of having been bonded to Peter for a long time, so it was already imprinted after somebody else.) "Carnage" seems to just be a codename for Cletus Kassady, as near as I can see. 

Of course, technically the individual Carnage symbiotes would still be separate characters.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 27 Aug 2004 08:31 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Hmm. Would they? If, as you say, the Carnage symbiotes have less free will and independent thought than the Venom symbiote, do they really qualify as "characters"? I mean, we don't list house pets, do we? 

Although, on the other hand, we do list sidekick animals like Redwing, Aragorn, Valinor, and so on ... would the Carnage and Hybrid symbiotes count as "characters" in that "sidekick animal" sense? 

Oh man, I can just see the listings now: 

BROCK, EDDIE 
(becomes Venom) 
(splits from Venom) 
(becomes Venom) 

VENOM SYMBIOTE 
(becomes Venom) 
(splits from Venom) 
(becomes Venom) 

VENOM / EDDIE BROCK 
(from Brock, Eddie, and Venom symbiote) 
(splits into Brock, Eddie, and Venom symbiote) 
(from Brock, Eddie, and Venom symbiote) 

VENOM SYMBIOTE OFFSPRING 
(merges with Carnage) 

CARNAGE / KLETUS CASADY 

VENOM SYMBIOTE OFFSPRING II (the yellow one) 

VENOM SYMBIOTE OFFSPRING III 
(becomes Hybrid) 

VENOM SYMBIOTE OFFSPRING IV 
(becomes Hybrid) 

VENOM SYMBIOTE OFFSPRING V 
(becomes Hybrid) 

VENOM SYMBIOTE OFFSPRING VI 
(becomes Hybrid) 

GUARDSMAN III 
(becomes Hybrid) 

HYBRID 
(from Guardsman III and Venom Symbiote Offspring III-VI) 

CARNAGE SYMBIOTE (the second one) 
(merges with Carnage) 

CARNAGE SYMBIOTE OFFSPRING 

VENOM SYMBIOTE II (clone) 


Mind-boggling. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Aug 2004 01:13 pm    
By lkseitz

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Oh man, I can just see the listings now: 
<<<

Oh, my. I'm only passingly familiar with Carnage. (Do you blame me?  ) I didn't realize what a can of worms I was going to open. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Keep in mind that, while we're not bound by the results of polls, we will take them under honest consideration. 
<<<

I've missed any previous polls or mention of them. I just wanted to play with it and see how it works.  I in no way expected the MCP to be bound by them. You have the final word on everything, Russ, as it should be.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

Last edited by lkseitz on 12 Nov 2004 04:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 03:48 am    
By JLH

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
VENOM SYMBIOTE OFFSPRING II (the yellow one) 

VENOM SYMBIOTE OFFSPRING III 
(becomes Hybrid) 

VENOM SYMBIOTE OFFSPRING IV 
(becomes Hybrid) 

VENOM SYMBIOTE OFFSPRING V 
(becomes Hybrid) 

VENOM SYMBIOTE OFFSPRING VI 
(becomes Hybrid) 
<<<


Here's how they're currently listed in the MCP: 

YELLOW SYMBIOTE/DONNA 
VIOLET SYMBIOTE/LESLIE 
GREEN SYMBIOTE/CARL 
INDIGO SYMBIOTE/TREVOR 
ORANGE SYMBIOTE/RAMON 

The Venom toy line gave them names, like the Yellow one was "Scream", but they were never mentioned in any of the comics.

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 12:53 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Weren't four of them named Scream, Lasher, Riot, and Hybrid in Venom: Separation Anxiety? If not, it still seems to me that those names would be better MCP entries that "[color] Symbiote."
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 01:04 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Weren't four of them named Scream, Lasher, Riot, and Hybrid in Venom: Separation Anxiety? If not, it still seems to me that those names would be better MCP entries that "[color] Symbiote." 
<<<


You don't mean that, do you? I mean, if they're not given those names in the books, surely you're not suggesting we give them those names on our own? 


watching: avengers (not those avengers)

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Posted: 28 Aug 2004 09:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Surely I am. They weren't named "Yellow Symbiote," etc. in the comics either. Marvel, through it's subsidiary Toy Biz, did name the characters. In this particular case, unless evidence is presented in the comics themselves to contradict it, I'd give those names to the characters. IMHO, it's better than descriptive "non-names." Call it an exception to the general rule about names, given the alternative is really no name.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Aug 2004 01:58 am    
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Weren't four of them named Scream, Lasher, Riot, and Hybrid in Venom: Separation Anxiety? If not, it still seems to me that those names would be better MCP entries that "[color] Symbiote." 
<<<


As I said, some of them got names in the toyline. Not all of them. Hybrid is Hybird, the combo of the four of them. Scream was the Yellow one, Lasher was the green, and Riot was either the Indigio one, or the Navy one from "The Madness" mini. 

The Separation Anxiety video game SHOULD have had names for the characters in its booklet, but as far as I've been able to tell, they didn't get names there, either.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Aug 2004 03:39 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Marvel, through it's subsidiary Toy Biz, did name the characters. In this particular case, unless evidence is presented in the comics themselves to contradict it, I'd give those names to the characters. IMHO, it's better than descriptive "non-names." Call it an exception to the general rule about names, given the alternative is really no name. 
<<<


If Marvel--not a subsidiary, but Marvel itself--were to explain in an issue of Ultimate Spider-Man that Answer's real name was Thomas Everett, I would not be inclined to list that alter ego for Answer, because the source isn't canon, even though the alternative is not to have any name at all. I don't see how a toy could be any more canon that Ultimate Spider-Man. 


watching: nightmare on elm street 2

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Posted: 29 Aug 2004 09:55 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

What I think Paul's trying to say is -- in this case, in the comics, these symbiotes don't have ANY names. Not even a code-name. There's NO effective way to look them up -- who's going to think to look under "Y" for "yellow symbiote"? 

I agree with him there -- that the MCP's current designations for the symbiotes need to be changed, because they're not intuitive. But I don't agree that we should give them names from the toy-line -- that's ALSO not intuitive. Nobody will know how to look them up. 

So how SHOULD we list them? 

The thing is, Paul, four out of the five of them DID eventually receive a codename in the comics -- they merged with that Vault Guardsman to become Hybrid (II). We DO have a way to list them as a gestalt -- just not individually. 

But what we can do is link the "descriptive non-names" for the individual symbiotes back and forth from Hybrid's listing -- so people can, with a little research, find them in the MCP. 

HYBRID II 
(from Descriptive Non-names I-IV) 

And if we make all those non-names start with the same word (for example, "symbiote"), then once people find them, we can also direct their attention to the yellow symbiote's listing, the one that never got a name -- but who's descriptive non-name would be found right next to the other four. 

So what should the names be? We could us "Symbiote" or "Symbiote offspring" ... I actually prefer "Venom symbiote offspring" -- I can see how that might be a bit less than intuitive too, but at least it would be right next to "Venom" and "Venom symbiote" in the MCP, providing another way for site readers to accidentally come across it. 

Thoughts? 

By the way, where did Carnage's second symbiote (the one he found after Venom ate the synthetic one he'd made from his blood) come from? "Venom: the Hunted" established that there were a few symbiotes left on earth after the "Invasion of the Symbiotes" from the 1995 Spider-Man Super Specials ... is that where it came from? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Aug 2004 11:23 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks, Jeph. This has potential, or at least the seeds of it.

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Posted: 29 Aug 2004 02:24 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I agree with him there -- that the MCP's current designations for the symbiotes need to be changed, because they're not intuitive. But I don't agree that we should give them names from the toy-line -- that's ALSO not intuitive. Nobody will know how to look them up.  
<<<


BUT, what if someone's first exposure to these characters IS through the toy line? Let's say someone acquired the Lasher, Riot, Scream, etc. action figures and wants to look up where they appeared in the comics? I think a cross-reference to those toy names would be in order.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Aug 2004 10:48 pm    
By JLH

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
By the way, where did Carnage's second symbiote (the one he found after Venom ate the synthetic one he'd made from his blood) come from? "Venom: the Hunted" established that there were a few symbiotes left on earth after the "Invasion of the Symbiotes" from the 1995 Spider-Man Super Specials ... is that where it came from? 
<<<


Webspinners #13 or 14, IIRC. It was in the Negative Zone, in a box or something. Kletus had some sort of mental bond with it and was able to hunt it out. 

Course, lucky for him, it was the exact same color as his old one, instead of being pink with neon-blue polka dots...

			*	*	*
Posted: 30 Aug 2004 09:34 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, JLH. 

Paul, about your question -- what if people who know the symbiotes from the toy line try to look them up on the MCP? Shouldn't we have some sort of cross-listing? 

My feeling is that no, we shouldn't. Why? Well, because as far as the comics -- the canon sources -- are concerned, those AREN'T the character's names. 

If someone DOES come to this site armed with the toy names, and starts searching -- well, "Hybrid" was one of the toy names, wasn't it? Meaning, after striking out looking for "Scream", "Lasher", "Riot", etc. ... they'll hit Hybrid's listing. And from there they'll hopefully be cross-referenced to "Venom symbiote offspring III-VI". Bingo -- they've just found the symbiotes' listings. 

Failing that, searchers who are still confused will probably post a question here on the message board, and we can help them out that way. 

What if someone comes to the site, fresh from watching the 1990s FOX "X-Men" cartoon, and they want to look up all of Morph's appearances? Well, in the Marvel Universe, there WAS no "Morph" -- he exists only in the AoA and Exiles universes. In the mainstream Marvel Univserse, he was known as the Changeling. Should we put in a cross-reference from "Morph" to "Changeling", to help anyone who only knows the X-Men from the cartoon? 

I like the MCP to be intuitive and easily organized -- but I think there's a point at which we stop holding the site visitors' hands. If there's something they don't understand, well, that's what the FAQ and posting board are for. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Sep 2004 10:47 pm    Post subject: Venom Symbiote
By stavesacre79

Hey - this is Sean Arnold - what about when the Venom Symbiote bonds with other people like Eddie's Wife in Sinner Takes All? Also, in the current Spectacular Spider-Man series, the symbiote goes rogue for a while and I'm PRETTY SURE Eddie isn't in the first couple of those issues. So I definately think they should be seperated... but there's GOT to be an easier way to do it. Perhaps you could do three seperate entries: one for Venom where you only list the appearances where they are together as "Venom", one for Eddie Brock where you list only those appearances where he doesn't have the costume (mostly flashback issues) and a third for the symbiote where you list issues while it's by itself (like Secret Wars 8, Web of Spider-Man 1, etc.) Just a suggestion. As for Carnage, I know the symbiote appears as a seperate entity because it merges with Silver Surfer in ASM 430, 431. But (as far as I know) there are no issues that don't have both Cassidy and the symbiote (even ASM 344 has the symbiote, doesn't it?) So they could just stay listed under Carnage. As far as Venom's offspring, though I don't agree with naming them after the Toy Biz toys I think they shouldn't be listed by their color - that just makes it hard to find them for people who don't already know how they're listed. Okay - that's my 2 cents worth - hopefully you guys'll see this. Thank you for listening.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Sep 2004 11:01 pm    
By stavesacre79

Alright, I'm sorry, I completely didn't see the second page of this posting. I think that Jeph has a good point about Morph and a cross-reference listing shouldn't be added. I think it would diminish the integrity of the site. Jeph also has a good point about listing them under something similar like "Venom Symbiote Offspring." I actually think that would be the best way to list them, but what about listing by their host's names - Donna, Ramon, etc? That might actually make them harder to find, but it's an idea. Again, thanks for taking my thoughts into consideration.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Sep 2004 08:34 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

It's not a bad thought, Sean -- but for two things: 

1) the MCP doesn't generally list characters by their FIRST names. (There are exceptions, like Amiko, but not many.) 

2) those humans weren't the symbiotes' only hosts. Sure, we *could* potentially list "Donna" or "Ramon", but as soon as the symbiote left Ramon and joined up with someone else, we'd need a new listing for it anyway. 

Since the human characters are only known by first name -- and we don't bother listing characters who are only known by first name -- we don't need to worry about listing the human halves of the gestalts. We just need to worry about listing the symbiotes -- and the symbiotes AREN'T named Donna and Ramon. 

-Jeph! 

(Hey, 500th post!) 

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Sep 2004 06:44 pm    
By SeanCurtin

A separate page listing non-canonical codenames would be a helpful reference for finding obscure characters like these. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 05:36 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

When did Eddie Brock and the symbiote orginally merge? 


watching: seattle v. st. louis

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Oct 2004 06:44 pm    
By Starman

It has just been shown in flashbacks, to my knowledge. First time in Amazing Spider-Man #300.
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 01:07 am    
By JLH

As the MCP reflects, the round of Spidey annuals from 1990 had back-ups which fleshed out those flashbacks into whole stories. I forget which one exactly has the bonding scene, but likely the first one.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 08:22 am    
By Enda80

Amazing Spider-Man Annual #26, Spectacular Spider-Man Annual #12, Web of Spider-Man Annual #28= Solo tale of Eddie Brock when he first came into contact with the symbiote.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2004 07:34 pm    Post subject: MKSM#7
By stavesacre79

Okay, I still don't know how it should be done, but due to the recent events in MKSM#7 (namely the new Venom) I REALLY think Eddie and the symbiote should get seperate listings.

			*	*	*


Thread 29

Posted: 14 Oct 2004 02:10 pm    Post subject: MKSM #7 - timeline clue
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #7 is unusually specific about how old Peter is. Aside from Peter saying that he's in his twenties, he also attends a class reunion. The banner over the school doorway is crumpled, but clearly reads "Class of 1993." 

So on that basis, it's been 11 years since Peter left school, presumably making him 28 or 29 right now.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 14 Oct 2004 10:31 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
The banner over the school doorway is crumpled, but clearly reads "Class of 1993."  
<<<

Clear to you, maybe. As I saw that panel, I thought it clever how they made that date vaguely obscure! 

Quote: 
>>>
Aside from Peter saying that he's in his twenties,  
<<<

Well of course Marvel's going to say Peter's in his twenties. Gotta keep those protagonists young, you know. And Peter won't hit thirty officially for many, many years to come. But it still doesn't make sense considering the course of the many events that have transpired in the MU.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 30

Posted: 15 Oct 2004 07:43 pm    Post subject: Man-Thing
By the Krayon

I'm assuming that Man-Thing is a canonical character, but perhaps he and the other horror characters aren't. 

i was just re-reading my three Man-Thing issues and wondered if and when they fit into the timeline. though, perhaps, because it is a pre-lude to the movie then it isn't cannonical? 

help with this would be good. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------the-Krayon

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Oct 2004 09:44 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

The recent Man-Thing miniseries is not canon. Marvel is usally vague one what IS and IS NOT canon, but I seem to recall reading somewhere from Marvel that this miniseries is nothing more than a movie tie-in, and so therefore: not canon.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 15 Oct 2004 11:52 pm    
By shandrakor

Aside from the movie tie-in series, the actual character of Man-Thing is certainly canonical, and has encountered a number of big-name Marvel characters. I can think of two fights with the Hulk offhand, and I'm quite certain he/it's appeared in other books.

			*	*	*

Thread 31

Posted: 05 Oct 2004 10:40 pm    Post subject: Hemingway from Gene Nation isn't on the list.
By arthur_phillip_dent

He appears in Generation X #5, 6, and 50. 
He also appears in X-Man # 50
_________________
Eagles may soar but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

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Posted: 05 Oct 2004 11:24 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

He's listed here under his codename, Pain. 


watching: terror in the aisles

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Posted: 05 Oct 2004 11:27 pm    
By arthur_phillip_dent

cool thanks
_________________
Eagles may soar but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

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Posted: 07 Oct 2004 12:58 am    
By SeanCurtin

Although, since he only went by "Hemingway" in his first several appearances, there ought to be a cross-reference there. 

-Sean

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 08:49 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

You mean those "codenames" given exactly once in the Storm limited series -- the ones that they never once went by again? 

Weren't Marrow, Vessel and Sack given those "names", too? One of them was "Glass", or the like? 

I don't know *what* to make of that scene. Half of those folks already HAVE codenames -- I tend to think the names given in the Storm series were metaphorical for their roles in the Gene Nation unit, or some other Warren Ellis oddness. 

I see another "Rusty/Firefist" discussion waiting to happen, though... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 03:40 pm    
By arthur_phillip_dent

I'm not sure what you are referring to but I know the name Hemingway was used in Generation X when Warren Ellis wasn't writing it.
_________________
Eagles may soar but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 06:03 pm    
By shandrakor

Quote: 
>>>
Weren't Marrow, Vessel and Sack given those "names", too? One of them was "Glass", or the like? 
<<<


Yeah, the names were Pain, Snow, Loss, Glass and Charm. 

The listings are for Pain II (Pain I being Hemmingway also?), Loss, Glass (from Sack), and Charm II. For some reason Vessel's apperance as Snow is still listed under Vessel. 

Clearly something is screwed up here.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Oct 2004 12:33 am    
By jannepie

Well, both Vessel and Hemingway used the names Vessel and Hemingway in recent issues of Weapon X where they were killed. Haven't the others also appeared somewhere since the Storm mini series?

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Thread 32

Posted: 16 Oct 2004 04:48 pm    Post subject: Gerber, Steve
By scottandrewhutchins

Gerber, Steve 

Spoof 4 (possibly non-continuity) 
M-T 22 
HTD 16 


I noticed entries for Bill Mantlo, Jim Shooter, and several other Marvel Bullpenners, but no entry for Steve Gerber (whcih he's probably fine with, so Marvel doesn't turn him into Jewboy-X). 

Scott

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Thread 33

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 09:02 am    Post subject: A page by page breakdown of UX and CX
By Jason Doty

Over the weekend I compared CX to UX, except for the 2 Dazzler backstories and the stories that happened before GSX 1. This is a page by panel review. Please tell me what you think. It does not include anything other than CX and UX. Next weekend I might tackle PXX and UX, but wanted to get a response to this first. 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.1 pgs. 1-4 
Giant Size X-Men vol.1 no.1 pgs. 1-36 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.1 pgs. 19-32 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.94 pgs. 1-6 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.2 pgs.7-8 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.94 pg.8 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.2 pgs. 10-12 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.2/2 pgs.1-10 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.5/2 pgs.1-12 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.10/2 pgs.1-12 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.94 pgs. 9-18 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.95 pgs.1-2pn.1 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.3 pgs.2pn.2-3pn.3 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.95 pgs.2pn.3-5pn.2 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.3 pgs.6pn.3-7pn.8 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1no.94 pgs.5pn.6-9 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.3 pg.12 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.95 pgs.10-18 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.3/2 pgs.1-11 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.96 pgs.1-8 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.4 pgs.9-10 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.96 pgs.9-18 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.4/2 pgs.1-12 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.97 pgs.1-5 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.5 pg.6 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.97 pgs.6-10 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.5 pg.12 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.97 pgs.11-18 

Classix X-Men vol.1 no.6/2 pgs.1-12 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.98 pgs.1-6 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.6 pg.7 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.98 pgs.7-11 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.6 pg.13-14 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.98 pgs.12-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.99 pgs.1-2 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.7 pg.3 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.99 pgs.3-7 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.7 pg.9 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.7/2 pgs.1-12 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.99 pgs.8-15pn.1 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.7 pgs.17pn.2-18pn.1 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.99 pgs.16pn.2-18 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.100 pgs.1-11 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.8 pg.12 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.100 pgs.12-14pn.1 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.8 pgs.15pn.2-16pn.1 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.100 pgs.15pn.2-18 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.8/2 pgs.1-12 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.101 pgs.1-6 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.9 pgs.7-9 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.9/2 pgs.1-12 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.101 pgs.7-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.102 pgs. 1-7pn.3 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.10 pgs.7pn.4-8 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.102 pg. 9 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.10 pg.10 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.102 pgs. 11-12 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.10 pg.13 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.102 pgs. 13-18 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.103 pg.1 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.11 pgs.2-3pn.2 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.103 pgs.2pn.2-3 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.11 pg. 5pn.1 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.103 pgs.5pn.2-6pn.3 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.11 pgs. 6pn.4-7pn.4 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.103 pgs.6pn.4-12 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.11 pg.14 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.103 pgs.13-17 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.11/2 pgs.1-13 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.104 pgs.1-3 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.12 pgs.4-6 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.104 pgs.4-17 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.12/2 pgs.1-12 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.13 pgs.1-3pn.1 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.105 pgs.1-4 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.13 pg. 7 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.105 pgs.5-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.106 pgs.1-2pn.4,17pn.4 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.107 pg.1 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.14 pgs.2-3 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.107 pgs.2-12 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.14 pg.15 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.107 pgs.13-18 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.108 pgs.1-15pn.3 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.15 pgs. 15pn.4-pn.5 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.108 pgs.15pn.4-16pn.1 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.15 pgs. 17-19pn.3 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.108 pgs.16pn.2-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.109 pgs.1-5 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.16 pgs.6-8 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.109 pgs.6-17 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.16 pg. 21 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.26/2 pgs.1-12 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.28/2 pgs.1-11 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.110 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.27/2 pgs.1-12 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.13/2 pgs.1-12 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.18/2 pgs.1-12 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.17/2 pgs.1-13 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.17 pgs.1-3pn.2 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.111 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.112 pg.1 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.18 pgs.2-3 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.112 pg.2-14 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.18 pg.15 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.112 pgs.15-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.113 pgs.1-4 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.19 pg.5 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.113 pgs.5-7 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.19 pgs.9-10 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.113 pgs.8-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.114 pgs.1-5 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.20 pgs.6-7 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.114 pgs.6-9 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.20 pg.12 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.114 pgs.10-13 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.20 pg.17 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.114 pgs.14pn.1-7 
Classic X-Men vol. no.21/2 pgs.1-12 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.114 pgs.7pn.8-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.115 pgs.1-10 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.21 pgs.11-13 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.115 pgs.11-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.116 pgs.1-7pn.3 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.22 pgs.7pn.4-8pn.3 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.116 pgs.7pn.4-16 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.22/2 pgs.1-11 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.116 pg.17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.117 pgs.1-6, 15pn.5-17 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.23 pg.18 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.23/2 pgs.1-11 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.118 pgs.1-6 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.24/2 pgs.1-2 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.24 pg.7 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.24/2 pgs.3-12 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.118 pgs.7-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.119 pgs.1-11 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.25 pgs.12-13 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.119 pgs.12-13 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.25 pg.16 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.119 pgs.14-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.120 pgs.1-2 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.26 pgs.3-5 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.120 pgs.3-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.121 pgs.1-3 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.27 pg.4 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.121 pgs.4-10 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.27 pg.12 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.121 pgs.11-17 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.27 pg. 20 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.25/2 pgs.1-12 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.122 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.123 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.124 pgs.1-17 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.29/2 pgs.1-12 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.30/2 pgs.1-12 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.31/2 pgs.1-12 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.39/2 pgs.1-12 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.40/2 pgs.1-12 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.125 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.126 pgs.1-15pn.5 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.32/2 pgs.1-12 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.126 pgs.15pn.6-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.127 pgs.1-4 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.33/2 pgs.1-12 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.127 pgs.5-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.128 pgs.1-4 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.129 pgs.1-5 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.34/2 pgs.1-12 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.129 pg.6 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.20/2 pgs.1-12 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.129 pgs.7-16pn.3 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.35/2 pgs.1-12 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.129 pgs.16pn.4-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.130 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.131 pgs.1-17 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.36/2 pgs.1-15 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.132 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.133 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.134 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.135 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.136 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.137 pgs.1-35 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.43/2 pgs.1-13 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.138 pgs.1-18 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.44/2 pgs.1-12

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Posted: 17 Oct 2004 09:14 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

This would be a lot easier to read if you briefly mentioned what was going on in the added panels... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 11:40 am    Post subject: How's this Jeph!
By Jason Doty

Here you go. 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.1 pgs. 1-4 (Cyclops returns from Krakoa and trains, Professor X leaves to recruit help.) 
Giant Size X-Men vol.1 no.1 pgs. 1-36 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.1 pgs. 19-32 (The New X-Men and Old X-Men mesh for the first time.) 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.94 pgs. 1-6 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.2 pgs.7-8 (The New X-Men train in Danger Room.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.94 pg.8 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.2 pgs. 10-12 (Professor X asks Cyclops about their progress. Moira gets a telegram. Storm talks with Thunderbird.) 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.2/2 pgs.1-10 (Storm and Jean Grey go shopping.) 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.5/2 pgs.1-12 (Colossus aides a Russian defector.) 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.10/2 pgs.1-12 (Wolverine gets tagged by Sabretooth.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.94 pgs. 9-18 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.95 pgs.1-2pn.1 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.3 pgs.2pn.2-3pn.3 (Nefaria watches X-Men fall from the sky and his motives are questioned by the Ani-Men.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.95 pgs.2pn.3-5pn.2 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.3 pgs.6pn.3-7pn.8 (Banshee does a sonic radar thing, then Nightcrawler teleports into the base.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1no.94 pgs.5pn.6-9 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.3 pg.12 (Thunderbird is upset that he cant have point.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.95 pgs.10-18 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.3/2 pgs.1-11 (Thunderbirds funeral) 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.96 pgs.1-8 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.4 pgs.9-10 (The X-Men catch Storm swimming nude, Professor X talks to Moira.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.96 pgs.9-18 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.4/2 pgs.1-12 (Nightcrawler takes a walk through town on a bet from Wolverine.) 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.97 pgs.1-5 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.5 pg.6 (Alex thinks about how much he loves Lorna.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.97 pgs.6-10 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.5 pg.12 (Havok reverts back to normal temporarily.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.97 pgs.11-18 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.6/2 pgs.1-12 (Jean gets ready for her date with Scott.) 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.98 pgs.1-6 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.6 pg.7 (Banshee and Wolverine try fighting Sentinels.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.98 pgs.7-11 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.6 pg.13-14 (Kurt and Peter end their date. Cyclops searches for missing teammates. Hellfire Club discuses their plans.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.98 pgs.12-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.99 pgs.1-2 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.7 pg.3 (X-Men sneak into Cape Kennedy.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.99 pgs.3-7 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.7 pg.9 (Lang speaks with the Hellfire Club.) 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.7/2 pgs.1-12 (Sentinels attack Hellfire Club. Shaw takes over the Inner Circle.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.99 pgs.8-15pn.1 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.7 pgs.17pn.2-18pn.1 (X-Men free their captive teammates.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.99 pgs.16pn.2-18 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.100 pgs.1-11 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.8 pg.12 (Lang gets a damage report and Cyclops tries to free himself.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.100 pgs.12-14pn.1 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.8 pgs.15pn.2-16pn.1 (Jean saves Lang from the blast.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.100 pgs.15pn.2-18 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.8/2 pgs.1-12 (Phoenix replaces Jean.) 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.101 pgs.1-6 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.9 pgs.7-9 (The X-Men escape undercover and take Jean to the hospital.) 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.9/2 pgs.1-12 (Nightcrawler meets a ghost.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.101 pgs.7-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.102 pgs. 1-7pn.3 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.10 pgs.7pn.4-8 (Storms origin.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.102 pg. 9 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.10 pg.10 (Storms origin.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.102 pgs. 11-12 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.10 pg.13 (Professor X has visions of Lilandra.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.102 pgs. 13-18 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.103 pg.1 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.11 pgs.2-3pn.2 (A recap of what happened to the X-Men.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.103 pgs.2pn.2-3 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.11 pg. 5pn.1 (Nightcrawler told by elf to come quickly.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.103 pgs.5pn.2-6pn.3 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.11 pgs. 6pn.4-7pn.4 (Professor X has more visions of Lilandra.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.103 pgs.6pn.4-12 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.11 pg.14 (Storm evades lasers.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.103 pgs.13-17 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.11/2 pgs.1-13 (Storm prevents a suicide.) 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.104 pgs.1-3 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.12 pgs.4-6 (The X-Men escape from the water as Magneto watches.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.104 pgs.4-17 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.12/2 pgs.1-12 (Magneto saves a family from burning to death.) 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.13 pgs.1-3pn.1 (The X-Men head home. Professor X has more visions.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.105 pgs.1-4 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.13 pg. 7 (The X-Men battle Firelord.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.105 pgs.5-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.106 pgs.1-2pn.4,17pn.4 (Professor X hallucinates about a previous adventure and then wakes.) 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.107 pg.1 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.14 pgs.2-3 (The X-Men travel through the srargate.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.107 pgs.2-12 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.14 pg.15 (The Starjammers come to help.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.107 pgs.13-18 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.108 pgs.1-15pn.3 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.15 pgs. 15pn.4-pn.5 (Corsair loves his son and the Phoenix takes form.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.108 pgs.15pn.4-16pn.1 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.15 pgs. 17-19pn.3 (Phoenix meets the Dark side of herself while in the crystal.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.108 pgs.16pn.2-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.109 pgs.1-5 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.16 pgs.6-8 (Vindicator gets ready and Lilandra learns about the shower.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.109 pgs.6-17 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.16 pg. 21 (Vindicator goes home.) 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.26/2 pgs.1-12 (Wolverine ,Banshee, and Cyclops at a bar.) 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.28/2 pgs.1-11 (X-Men costume party.) 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.110 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.27/2 pgs.1-12 (Jean Scott, and Logan go out for a burger.) 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.13/2 pgs.1-12 (Jean and Misty Knight go to the beach.) 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.18/2 pgs.1-12 (Outdoor Danger Room fun.) 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.17/2 pgs.1-13 (Mesmero captures the X-Men.) 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.17 pgs.1-3pn.2 (Beast searches for the X-Men.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.111 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.112 pg.1 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.18 pgs.2-3 (Individual X-Men think about Magneto.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.112 pg.2-14 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.18 pg.17 (Phoenix battles Magneto.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.112 pgs.15-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.113 pgs.1-4 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.19 pg.5 (X-Men in think in the baby chairs.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.113 pgs.5-7 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.19 pgs.9-10 (Magneto ponders his next move.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.113 pgs.8-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.114 pgs.1-5 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.20 pgs.6-7 (Storm recounts the X-men journey through the Earth.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.114 pgs.6-9 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.20 pg.12 (Beast talks to Captain America and consoles Phoenix.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.114 pgs.10-13 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.20 pg.17 (Cyclops thinks.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.114 pgs.14pn.1-7 
Classic X-Men vol. no.21/2 pgs.1-12 (Colossus and native girls.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.114 pgs.7pn.8-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.115 pgs.1-10 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.21 pgs.11-13 (Phoenix upset she couldnt save the X-Men.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.115 pgs.11-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.116 pgs.1-7pn.3 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.22 pgs.7pn.4-8pn.3 (X-Men break into the fortress.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.116 pgs.7pn.4-16 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.22/2 pgs.1-11 (Storm becomes part of the Neverending Story.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.116 pg.17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.117 pgs.1-6, 15pn.5-17 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.23 pg.18 (X-Men on the ship home.) 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.23/2 pgs.1-11 (Nightcrawler in a swashbuckling adventure.) 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.118 pgs.1-6 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.24/2 pgs.1-2 (Jean arrives in Greece.) 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.24 pg.7 (Jean reports her luggage missing.) 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.24/2 pgs.3-12 (Mastermind toys with Jeans emotions.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.118 pgs.7-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.119 pgs.1-11 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.25 pgs.12-13 (Mosses remembers his meeting with Apocolypse.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.119 pgs.12-13 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.25 pg.16 (X-Men at the Tokyo hospital.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.119 pgs.14-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.120 pgs.1-2 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.26 pgs.3-5 (Vindicator plots to get Wolverine.Phoenix talks with Moira.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.120 pgs.3-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.121 pgs.1-3 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.27 pg.4 (Government officials talk.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.121 pgs.4-10 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.27 pg.12 (Government officials talk more.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.121 pgs.11-17 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.27 pg. 20 (Alpha Flight investigates Wolverines escape.) 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.25/2 pgs.1-12 (Wolverine takes on a hunter.) 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.122 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.123 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.124 pgs.1-17 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.29/2 pgs.1-12 (Colossus visits home.) 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.30/2 pgs.1-12 (Arcade puts himself through Murder World.) 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.31/2 pgs.1-12 (Professor X talks with alien plumber.) 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.39/2 pgs.1-12 (X-Men vs. some upset guy.) 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.40/2 pgs.1-12 (Nightcrawler helps the handicapped.) 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.125 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.126 pgs.1-15pn.5 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.32/2 pgs.1-12 (Proteus practices on Wolverine.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.126 pgs.15pn.6-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.127 pgs.1-4 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.33/2 pgs.1-12 (Havok and Polaris look for Proteus and Havok hallucinates.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.127 pgs.5-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.128 pgs.1-4 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.129 pgs.1-5 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.34/2 pgs.1-12 (Mastermind vs. White Queen in chess.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.129 pg.6 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.20/2 pgs.1-12 (Storm fights Zombies.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.129 pgs.7-16pn.3 
Classic X-Men vol.1 no.35/2 pgs.1-12 (Kitty goes through a unconscious dream.) 
Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.129 pgs.16pn.4-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.130 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.131 pgs.1-17 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.36/2 pgs.1-15 (Moira and Sean talk about Proteus.) 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.132 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.133 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.134 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.135 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.136 pgs.1-17 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.137 pgs.1-35 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.43/2 pgs.1-13 (Phoenix spends time in the after life.) 

Uncanny X-Men vol.1 no.138 pgs.1-18 

Classic X-Men vol.1 no.44/2 pgs.1-12 (Mystique has an important assignment for Rogue.)

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Thread 34

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 11:55 pm    Post subject: Contemplator change
By lkseitz

I beg your pardon if this is verboten, but a change needs to be made to the Contemplator's entry. The problem is, it relies on information that falls in the first Gap. 

Details are given at http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/contimp.htm, but I'll summarize. The Contemplator seen in SILVER SURFER vol. 3 (SS3) was a Skrull imposter. I don't have Contemplator's early appearances, but believe they should be split like this: 

CONTEMPLATOR/TATH KI [ELDER] 
CABT 
CA@ 6 
Q 37 
Q 38 
Q 40 
IF2 1 

CONTEMPLATOR IMPOSTER [SKRULL] 
SS3 4 
SS3 7 
SS3 8 
SS3 9 
SS3 11 
SS3 12 
SS3 21 
SS3 12 
SS3 13 
SS3 20 
SS3 25 
SS3 26 
SS3 27 
SS3 28 
SS3 29 
SS3 30 
SS3 31 
Q 47 
Q 48
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Thread 35

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 05:27 pm    Post subject: Exiles
By Dhall

We need to resolve something, soon. 

Namely, the code for Exiles. 

I am in favor of renaming the Malibu series to ANE, as the correct name of that series is "All New Exiles" that's what's in the indicia, and on the cover. 

This would leave EXI open for Marvel's Exiles Series, rather than naming it EXI2. 

Secondly: how to list the exiles characters, I presume it'll be something like 
Rasputina, Illyana (Exiles) 
But instead of doing that, I think we should have a seperate page. 

Thirdly: Do we list varient's of characters who are not on the Exiles/Weapon X teams? This could get confusing after the 26th version of Iron Man. 

Anyway, let's discuss. 
(And let's resolve at least the code question soon, before I'm up to the X-Men/Exiles storyline for the issue analysis thread.) 

Dave H

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Posted: 17 Oct 2004 05:33 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I am in favor of renaming the Malibu series to ANE, as the correct name of that series is "All New Exiles" that's what's in the indicia, and on the cover. 

This would leave EXI open for Marvel's Exiles Series, rather than naming it EXI2 
<<<


Then what do we do, if anything, about Malibu's FIRST series titled "Exiles?"
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 09:23 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I'm leery of naming Marvel's "Exiles" series as anything with a "2" -- I know that the abbreviation codes are essentially random, but we generally only end our codes with a number when we mean to indicate a new volume of a previous title. And this is MARVEL'S first and *only* series titled "Exiles" -- the other books were Malibu comics. 

(By the way, David, EXI stands for All-New Exiles: Infinity. The current code for All-New Exiles is "EX".) 

Since "EX" and "EXI" are both taken ... why not "EXIL" for Marvel's Exiles series? 

I mean, I *would* like to see "All-New Exiles" changed to "ANE", but that topic's been brought up a number of times before and Russ never seems to take us up on it. At this point I'd just roll with it and pick something different for Marvel's Exiles. And if and when we ever put Malibu's original Exiles series into the MCP ... well, it could be "EXILES", I suppose. 

As for listing ALL the alternate versions of ALL the characters we see in the Exiles series ... my rule of thumb is, if they appear in more than one story arc, THEN we should list 'em. If not -- let 'em lie. 

And yes, indicators like "Magik (Exiles)" work fine for me. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Oct 2004 07:18 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Technically, the first series was published by Malibu, the second series was published by Marvel under the Malibu/Ultraverse imprint, and the third is published by Marvel. As to the number issue: X-Men vol. 2 is simply listed as X and not X2. Likewise, the original Ultraverse Exiles could be EXUV and the All-New Exiles as EXUV2 or ANE, leaving the current Exiles series to be EX. Ultimately though, it seems pointless to me to have two series included under identical titles given different abbreviations (see also: Spectacular Spider-Man). 

-Sean

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Thread 36

Posted: 27 Sep 2004 08:51 pm    Post subject: Ultraverse
By Jim Smith

Recent posts have me curious about the status of the Ultraverse on the MCP. Crossovers are already being listed, as are the issues of Exiles featuring Juggernaut. (I assume Black Knight's tenure in Ultraforce is just waiting for someone to analyze it.) What about characters indiginous to the Ultraverse? Personally I couldn't care less if they're included, but it'd be nice to know if I should disregard them if I analyze any more Malibu books. 

Also, do we have a definitive list of the Malibu books featuring Marvel characters? So far all I'm aware of are: 

Avengers/Ultraforce 
Exiles vol. 2 #Infinity, 1-11? (Juggernaut, Siena Blaze, Reaper) 
Exiles vs. X-Men #0 
Foxfire #1-4 (Black Knight, Punisher?) 
Godwheel #3 (Thor app.) 
Mantra vol. 2 #2 (Gateway) 
Night Man vol. 2 #2 (Hellstorm) 
Night Man/Gambit #0-3 
Night Man vs. Wolverine #0 
Phoenix Resurrection #0, Genesis, Revelations 
Prime vol. 2 #2 (Gateway) 
Prime/Captain America #1 
Prime vs. Incredible Hulk 
Rune vol. 2 #1-7? (Adam Warlock, X-Men) 
Rune/Silver Surfer #1 
Rune vs. Venom 
Siren #2 (Beast, Whizzer II) 
Ultraforce vol. 1 #8-10 (Black Knight, Sersi) 
Ultraforce vol. 2 #Infinity, 1-12 (Black Knight) 
Ultraforce/Avengers Prelude 
Ultraforce/Avengers 
Ultraforce/Spider-Man #1A, 1B 
Ultraverse Unlimited #1-2 (Marvel characters leave Ultraverse) 

I don't own most of these books (and I probably wouldn't want them all), but it'd be nice to know which of them need to be on the MCP and which don't.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Sep 2004 09:21 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Also Conan vs. Rune and Spider-Man/Prime. Siren's series featured War Machine and Diamondback, and I think Godwheel #0 featured Loki. 

-Sean

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Posted: 28 Sep 2004 07:20 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Marvel characters and/or the Infinity Gems appear in Black September Infinity, Curse of Rune #1-4, Hardcase #23 and #26, Necromantra/Lord Pumpkin flipbook #4, Night Man vol. 1 #22-23, and Rune Infinity. Rune appeared in Conan #4 and Conan the Savage #4, and may have appeared as a corpse in Thanos #3. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Oct 2004 12:35 pm    
By shandrakor

I just read Prime vs. Hulk, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be considered canon. It appears to be taking place in 616, Peter David was brought in as a plotting assistant, and there's nothing especially off about the continuity. 

I can do an analysis this evening if it's needed.

			*	*	*

Thread 37

Posted: 14 Oct 2004 06:19 pm    Post subject: Secret War #2-3 (spoilers)
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Well, with the release of Secret War #3, Bendis has nailed down the time-frame of the present-day story -- as occuring *before* Avengers Disassembled. Cap mentions "coming from the mansion" in this issue, and Diamondback is still alive. 

Sooooo, that means the "one year ago" sequence occurs sometime in the past. I guess in terms of other Bendis comics, it'd be sometime during the early part of the "one year" gap between DD2 #50-56. 

(By the way, I say if we ignore one "one year" leap we ignore both. Or at least make them line up with one another, THEN ignore 'em...) 

Also: now that we know the "one year ago" portion of Secret War is set in the past ... Wolverine notes to Spider-Man in #2 that he's "never seen him out of costume" -- a comment that might tempt some chronologists to place these sequences *before* the "Spider-Man/Wolverine" series, where Wolverine definitely learns Spidey's identity. 

However! Wolvie has ACTUALLY known Spidey's identity since Todd McFarlane's Spider-Man #11, published over ten years ago. So Logan's comment in SW #3 has got to be a mistake, rather than a chronology clue. 

(To fix this mistake, by the way, I propose that when Logan says "never seen you out of costume", he's actually talking to Daredevil -- who's sitting right next to Spider-Man. Yes, DD's identity would have been all over the papers for weeks at that point, but who's to say Logan reads the papers? Or is making any sense at all -- after all, he's pretty drunk in that scene.) 

In any case -- I'm sure we all expected this, but Jessica Jones is still pregnant in SW #3. 

And, interestingly, Bendis tells us that Peter and MJ's anniversary is the same day as the one-year anniversary of their Secret War. I wonder if he'll establish in #4-5 that this means that, the year before, Peter missed his anniverary while fighting to take over Latveria... 

The Bendis Temporal Reference War continues... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2004 06:34 pm    
By rhod

Wolverine actually worked out that Spider-man was Peter Parker in the Spider-man & Wolverine one-shot from the late 80's (87 I think) though if I remember correctly he didn't let on at the time.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2004 07:16 pm    
By Ant-Man

If you'll read the latest issue of Captain America, you'll see that Diamondback is still alive (LMD got "killed")
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 14 Oct 2004 07:26 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Oh phew. Still, there's the "mansion" comment to deal with. 

Also, DB is a villain in this issue ... does that give any clues to whether this is before or after these recent Cap issues? 

-Jeph! 
(oh, and Brian -- did you get my e-mail?)

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2004 10:21 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

No help at all. But consider this: the real Diamondback does show up in CA4 32 (apparently as a hero, not a villain). As it turns out, according to Nick Fury, "she's been on the Helicarrier this whole time, recovering from a brain scramble at the hands of the V-Battalion." That's a reference to CV&VB 1, which occurred "one week" after the beginning of TB 50, quite a while back. This implies that Rachel Leighton shouldn't make other appearances between CV&VB 1 and CA4 32. Going by this one clue, that would place SECRET WAR after Disassembled. Maybe Avengers Embassy gets rebuilt as Avengers Mansion II, just like the Xavier Institute was rebuilt?? 


Quote: 
>>>
In any case -- I'm sure we all expected this, but Jessica Jones is still pregnant in SW #3.  
<<<

#$@^&%!! 


Quote: 
>>>
The Bendis Temporal Reference War continues...  
<<<


Oh yes.... 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Oct 2004 01:03 am    
By DonCampbell

For what it's worth, the villainous Diamondback in SECRET WAR #3 is probably NOT the same person as the Diamondback from CAPTAIN AMERICA #32. On page 14, Scorcher calls his partner "Debbie." She quickly reacts, telling him, "Diamondback!! When we're in gear it's Diamondback!! I've got enough problems without everyone knowing my name!!" 

If the present-day events in the Secret War LS take place before CA 32, then "Debbie" is definitely not the original Diamondback because Rachel has been on board the SHIELD Helicarrier recovering from the brain scramble she suffered quite some time ago (in CV&VB 1). Therefore, Debbie must be some new would-be super-villainess who liked the codename "Diamondback" and, since the original DB hadn't been seen in a long time, she decided to use it herself. 

Of course, it's possible that Bendis intended the SW Diamondback to be the real DB but a) he got her real first name wrong and b) he ignored the fact that the real Diamondback has been reformed for quite some time (and was never an assassin-for-hire in the first place). 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Oct 2004 07:09 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
If the present-day events in the Secret War LS take place before CA 32, then "Debbie" is definitely not the original Diamondback because Rachel has been on board the SHIELD Helicarrier recovering from the brain scramble she suffered quite some time ago (in CV&VB 1). Therefore, Debbie must be some new would-be super-villainess who liked the codename "Diamondback" and, since the original DB hadn't been seen in a long time, she decided to use it herself.  
<<<


Good catch, Don. I'm going to have to pick up this issue; the comic store I went to this week didn't have it. I'm anxious to place this mini-series, especially given the PULSE crossover and the implications that has for M/KS-M and other Bendis messes.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Oct 2004 07:13 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Okay, I've read SECWAR 3. The Diamondback in this issue definitely is not Rachel Leighton -- different costume, different appearance, different name (she's upset when Scorcher calls her by her real name, "Debbie," so I take it that the name is not an alias). And yes, Cap's reference to having returned from the "mansion" seems to indicate that this story occurs before Disassembled. 

However, the "second story" in this issue -- a transcript of a phone recording that occurs this same night -- notes that the date of the recording as "6/12/05." Is this supposed to be a clue that the main story should occur sometime in the future relative to other titles? The story occurs on the one-year "anniversary" of the flashback Secret War mission, which, curiously, I've placed on June 9 of Year 22. That's spooky. But if the "today" portion of SECWAR doesn't occur until June of Year 23, that's a long time in the future...after many more stories yet to be published.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Oct 2004 11:04 am
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Remember, though, that there are two more issues to go in this series, and it's a quarterly (running late, at that). By the time the series is actually finished, and the trade paperback is ready to hit the shelves, June 2005 will indeed be more or less the present day.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Oct 2004 11:15 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Aside from the "mansion" reference -- which we can't hang much on yet, for we don't know if Avengers Mansion will be rebuilt, or when -- there's one piece of evidence tying the "present-day" portions of the series to the MU's present-day: they occur at the same time as The Pulse #6-10. 

So, while we're waiting for SECWAR #4-5 to inch out, look to the Pulse arc for placement clues... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Oct 2004 09:18 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
And, interestingly, Bendis tells us that Peter and MJ's anniversary is the same day as the one-year anniversary of their Secret War. I wonder if he'll establish in #4-5 that this means that, the year before, Peter missed his anniverary while fighting to take over Latveria... 
<<<


Well, could the scene with Peter and Mary Jane on their anniversary happen in the days leading up to the rest of the events of SECWAR? Peter was probably having several flashbacks in the days leading up to his going over to Matt's apartment and asking Matt if he was experiencing anything similar. Cause I really don't think that Peter would go to Latveria with his wife's anniversary coming up. Especially when in SECWAR 2 Peter asks Mary Jane what they have planned for "next week". Well, I'm sure MJ would've promptly reminded him about their wedding anniversary. 

I'll also note that there's no sign or mention of Milla Donovan as being Matt's wife. Perhaps it's after the seperation, or around the time of the pending annulment? This might also give merit to status of Matt's marriage, which was apparently unclear in the SHIELD Database files, as seen in the back up material in SECWAR 2. Perhaps the SHIELD experts were like, "Hmmm...Matt's looking at a possible annulment. We better leave his marriage status as 'unclear'!" 

And I don't know if Avengers Mansion is rebuilt, but one thing which might lend credit to this story being AFTER Disassembled is that when Captain America calls for backup in SECWAR 3, he says, "Tony Stark, this is Cap, I'm at-" He doesn't really put an "AVENGERS PRIORITY ALERT" out to anyone who will hear him, he specifically calls up Tony Stark. And Iron Man IS going to be a part of the Bendis Avengers lineup...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 18 Oct 2004 09:37 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Aside from the "mansion" reference -- which we can't hang much on yet, for we don't know if Avengers Mansion will be rebuilt, or when -- there's one piece of evidence tying the "present-day" portions of the series to the MU's present-day: they occur at the same time as The Pulse #6-10. 

So, while we're waiting for SECWAR #4-5 to inch out, look to the Pulse arc for placement clues... <<< 


So true. But of course, I can never resist formulating hypotheses based on scanty data.  

And of course, if SECWAR occurs too far in the future, that complicates Jessica's @#$%^&* eternal pregnancy. 

Here's another theory: the "today" portion of SECWAR occurs between Disassembled (late October) and the formation of the new Avengers (whenever). In fact, SECWAR might result in the New Avengers, given the fact that we have Cap, Spidey, Wolvie, and Cage involved. 

First off, that "6/12/05" reference in SECWAR 3/2 doesn't square with a temporal reference in a scene from SECWAR 1 that occurs earlier that same day. In that scene, Danny Rand reads a sports column that reports that the Indiana Pacers are 7 and 1 overall and have won six straight since losing at New Jersey on Nov. 1. That probably would place this segment in mid-November, a few weeks after Disassembled, and so still (technically) in the future relative to other stories out now. And, FWIW, we have a full moon in SECWAR 3 that would occur in mid-November. (Not that that's critical; just a nice bonus.) 

Cap does say the following in SECWAR 3: "I was coming home from the mansion--" But for all we know he could be dealing with the ruins of the mansion -- security, salvage, etc. Besides, the entire mansion wasn't obliterated in A 500; we see portions of it still standing after the carnage, and who knows how intact the sub-basements could be. So on second thought, SECWAR doesn't need to occur before Disassembled. Of course, this would mean that the Black Widow can't be killed off in A 503. 

Note also who Cap calls for back up when the horde of villains attacks at the end of SECWAR 3 -- "Tony Stark, this is Cap. I'm at--" He's not sending out an "Avengers" alert but instead is contacting an Avenger known to survive Disassembled and who will join the others in New Avengers. (Of course, Tony could be on monitor duty for the Assemblers, but the dialog doesn't discount the possibility that SECWAR occurs after Disassembled.) 

[Another temporal clue is the fact that we see Peter and M.J. celebrating their anniversary in SECWAR 3...but I'm interpreting this scene as part of Peter's dream, with the idea of an anniversary -- actually the anniversary of his Secret War mission -- in his mind. Did anyone else interpret that scene this way, or does M.J. actually appear in SECWAR 3?] 

Speaking of anniversary, if SECWAR actually does occur in mid-November of Year 22 and on the anniversary of the series flashbacks, then the flashbacks (the Secret War itself) would occur in mid-November of Year 21, and that means... 

Spidey would be in the flashbacks between PPSM2 57 and SPECSM3 1 (and SM&W 1-4 would need to be moved to a point before this, given Fury's and Peter's chronology). 

Daredevil would be in the flashback during the six-week period in which he's cleaning up Hell's Kitchen following DD2 50 -- fortunately not after he hung up the costumed identity. 

Cap would be in the flashbacks between CA4 16 and 21. 

Cage would participate in the Secret War before he and Jessica became a couple -- specifically during the six weeks between pages 16 and 17 of ALIAS 21. 

Logan would participate during a period in which he doesn't appear to have a whole lot else going on, so no conflicts there. 

This would also mean: 
1) that the unnamed Secretary of Defense noted in the SECWAR flashbacks would be Dell Rusk (not a big deal, at least not yet); and 
2) that the Secret War occurred in Latveria at a time when Doom was head of that country (ouch...that doesn't seem to agree with the references to a new prime minister of Latveria in those flashbacks). 

Looks like more noodling is required...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 18 Oct 2004 09:55 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Heh, looks like we were posting our thoughts at the same time, Paul... 

Quote: 
>>>
First off, that "6/12/05" reference in SECWAR 3/2 doesn't square with a temporal reference in a scene from SECWAR 1 that occurs earlier that same day. In that scene, Danny Rand reads a sports column that reports that the Indiana Pacers are 7 and 1 overall and have won six straight since losing at New Jersey on Nov. 1. That probably would place this segment in mid-November, a few weeks after Disassembled, and so still (technically) in the future relative to other stories out now. 
<<<


Well, this is why I don't give as much credit to dates that are written down, as opposed to dates spoken by characters. 6/12 could've been the date that the writer was writing this story...and heck, it's not even part of the story: it's an "bonus section!" in the back of the comic...however, what if Danny Rand was reading an OLD sports section? Maybe Luke Cage really enjoyed that game back in the prior fall, and Danny was reading him the old scores... 

Quote: 
>>>
[Another temporal clue is the fact that we see Peter and M.J. celebrating their anniversary in SECWAR 3...but I'm interpreting this scene as part of Peter's dream, with the idea of an anniversary -- actually the anniversary of his Secret War mission -- in his mind. Did anyone else interpret that scene this way, or does M.J. actually appear in SECWAR 3?] 
<<<


That's not how I interpretted it. When he later talks to Matt, he says these visions are occuring "like a dream, but I'm awake"...however, the prior scene shows Peter waking up in bed from a flashback to the battle...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Oct 2004 10:13 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
what if Danny Rand was reading an OLD sports section? Maybe Luke Cage really enjoyed that game back in the prior fall, and Danny was reading him the old scores...  
<<<

I think I'd rather chuck the "6/12/05" reference. 


Quote: 
>>>
That's not how I interpreted it. When he later talks to Matt, he says these visions are occuring "like a dream, but I'm awake"...however, the prior scene shows Peter waking up in bed from a flashback to the battle... 
<<<

I thought the whole scene was presented in a confusing way. If the wedding anniversary scene is real, then I hope our placement works out to be the same day of the year as ASM@ 21 (and, no, I haven't placed that annual yet). BTW, M.J. does appear in SECWAR 3 regardless, as she's in the bed with Peter when he is jolted awake by the dream.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 05:30 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Generally I find it best to ignore date references to the year in Marvel Time - who knows what year it's supposed to be? 

The 6/12 reference I think can be kept, possibly, if the dating conventions are shifted around. Does it have to be 12 June? Because when I see 6/12, my mind automatically says 6 December. This might fit better with the references to November earlier.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 07:43 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
The 6/12 reference I think can be kept, possibly, if the dating conventions are shifted around. Does it have to be 12 June? Because when I see 6/12, my mind automatically says 6 December. This might fit better with the references to November earlier. 
<<<

Now there's a thought. If we interpret it this way, however, we should assign the reference to "4/5/2003" in SECWAR 1/2 to May 4, for the sake of consistency. 

But if we're to place the Secret War exactly a year before this (Dec. 6 of Year 21), I'd have to juggle some Spidey stories, and that ain't easy.  

Still, the main thing that bothers me about that "anniversary" reference is Latveria. Was the Secret War supposed to happen at a time when Doom was not around? 

Bendis and his #$@%^ year-to-the-day references... 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 38

Posted: 19 Oct 2004 09:28 pm    Post subject: X 162
By Dhall

Well we're getting closer to getting an answer to the whole Xorn/Magneto/imposter retcon, but we're not quite there yet. 

According to Emma Frost, there are two Xorn's: 
Shen Xorn who is the new one, 
and Kuan-Yin Xorn "The man who's body Magneto someohow appropriated for his rampage against New York," 

Shen Xorn then says "...it was not Magneto who did the things you accuse him of. It was someone else...someone I still sense within your midst." 

I'm sure we'll eventually get to the bottom of this.... 

Dave H

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Posted: 20 Oct 2004 03:35 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

It's apparently planned for a future EXCALIBUR storyline. So at the pace that book's going, we can expect to see it some time in 2007...
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 20 Oct 2004 10:34 am    
By Dhall

Yeah, we'll probably be up to the point of doing listings, before we get the mess explained. 

Dave H

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Thread 39

Posted: 19 Oct 2004 08:43 pm    Post subject: Union Jack questions...
By Ant-Man

The MCP lists appearances for UNION JACK II/BRIAN FALSWORTH in Namor, The Sub-Mariner #27 and Cable #50 

I didn't see him in Namor #27, and it appears that the Union Jack in Cable #50 is UNION JACK/LORD MONTGOMERY FALSWORTH 

Does anybody see something that I'm missing?
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 20 Oct 2004 02:17 am    
By Peter Fabricius

I think someone mistook Brian Falsworth for Kenneth Crichton, who does appear. But he is missing an entry in the MCP. 
And the Cable appearance is in the 1915 portions of the story, so that has to be Montgomerey Falsworth.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: 21 Oct 2004 02:03 am    
By Peter Fabricius

Just noted that Kenneth Crichton is also in the Spitfire story in Marvel Comics Presents 89, so an entry for him should be 

Crichton, Kenneth 
M/CP 89/3 
N 27
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Thread 40

Posted: 22 Oct 2004 12:10 am    Post subject: Question on some Kang appearences
By electronicLad

Hi everyone, 
I was reading the last of my inferno issues today. I came up with something of a glitch with repect to the appearances of Kang ( a character I know next to nothing about) in Avengers 300 and Fantastic Four 323. Further, I couldn't find a either appearence in the MCP. 

I tried to do some brief online research about him, only to encounter that he likes to meddle with time a lot (uh oh) - this leads me to ask 

Is it possible, or even probable, that these are different versions of Kang? 
ARe they in the MCP as something else? 

Thanks, 
-electronicLad

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Posted: 22 Oct 2004 01:44 am    
By John Simons

Greetings, lad! 

During Walt Simonson's short run on Avengers, he introduced the Crosstime Kang Corps, a legion of strange alien beings dressed as Kang. The Kang in A 300 actually isn't the real Kang but a pretender in his armor. 

The Kang in FF 323 is the real Kang, as far as I know. Not sure why this appearence isn't listed in his chronology. 

To learn more about Kang, may I recommend 
http://www.avengersassemble.us/kang/kangtoc.html 
some very intelligent and entertaining person wrote summaries of the issues in question. 
They were written before Avengers Forever but about 90% of it is still valid ( I think)
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Thread 42

Posted: 22 Oct 2004 06:10 am    Post subject: Ningal and Ludi note; mixed up first.........
By Enda80

The OHotMU Demon entry lists Ningal's first appearance as Chamber of Chills#4, and Ludi's as Dr. Strange II#35. They got them reversed. Ludi appeared in Chamber of Chills#4, not Ningal. 

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~cje/mh/MM/Pages/COC.html 
does say that Ningal appeared in Chamber of Chills#*3*. Anyone know?

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Thread 43

Posted: 15 Oct 2004 07:17 am    Post subject: She-Hulk and Disassembled
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I just read She-Hulk v3 #8 and noticed that there's a "three month" gap in this story. That tempts me to place S-H3 5-8 after Disassembled rather than before. The only problem with that is that She-Hulk goes wild and is incarcerated in Disassembled. My guess is that she reverts to normal and is released, especially given that S-H3 is an ongoing series that will go to at least issue #12. Has anyone heard any buzz about this?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 15 Oct 2004 02:18 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Since we don't have a full analysis of the issue up yet, let me point out to everyone that this three-month gap has She-Hulk off-world for that entire time, during which she cannot make any guest appearances. 

As for buzz and whatnot, SH3 10 is listed as being part 1 of 3, so that suggests we'll at least get a #12. Dan Slott's talked about/plugged the book out through #11. And I've got record of him saying back in September, "The book is NOT ending at its "100th" issue (the issue that adds up to 100 when you put together all of She-Hulk's various volumes). It will continue on..." 

I get the impression that She-Hulk will actually NOT make an appearance in #10, and #11 is a She-Hulk/Titania battle. 

Beyond that, I've got nothing.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Oct 2004 03:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I went back over issues of She-Hulk v3 and deduced that the break for Disassembled must occur between issues 6 and 7 of S-H3. 

Yellowjacket appears in S-H3 5-6 so these issues must occur before Disassembled. (I expect YJ will be out of commission as of A 503.) 

S-H3 7 involves a three-month gap, during which She-Hulk is on another planet, as is Beta Ray Bill, who must get his arse kicked by Champion at the beginning of S-H3 7 after his appearance in the last issue of T2. Best for that gap to occur after Disassembled (not enough time before). 

If I'm right, then She-Hulk must get better after A 503. Maybe we'll see her back to normal in Avengers: Finale.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 44

Posted: 02 Oct 2004 05:52 pm    Post subject: Two questions, one small, one huge
By Harrison

It's been a while since I've looked at this board, and I can't find the answers to these questions using "search," so I'll ask them straight out. 

1) [easy question] Where do Avengers/Thunderbolts and Avengers/JLA fall? 

2) [impossible question] Do we have a preliminary chronolgy for the relaoded X-title to date? In the interest of simplifying the question, I'm really just asking about the three core books (Uncanny, Astonishing and "just"), and maybe X-Acedemy thrown in. One might think that Wolverine's inclusion in all three boks might actually make that task easier. One might think. Heh.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2004 06:49 pm    
By Jim Smith

My personal opinion is that JLA/Avengers occurs shortly after A3 55 (the Kang War is over, Jack of Hearts has joined the team) and before A3 56 (Thor's changed to the look he used when he was taking over Earth). It'd be harder to get specifics on Iron Man, Cap, or Hawkeye (strictly speaking Hawk's appearance makes no sense except that I'm too glad he showed up to complain), but that's as much thought as I've given it so far. 

Avengers/Thunderbolts #1-2 has to occur after Hawkeye rejoins the Avengers but before Hank and Jan's relationship breaks down, so those issues are somewhere between A3 75 and 77. But there's little indication of how much time has passed between #2 and 3, so it's possible that Chuck Austen's entire run on Avengers occurs between those issues. I doubt this, however, since it's hard for me to believe that the Thunderbolts were still based so close to England during "Lionheart of Avalon" and didn't raise a finger to help.

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Posted: 08 Oct 2004 10:37 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
My personal opinion is that JLA/Avengers occurs shortly after A3 55 (the Kang War is over, Jack of Hearts has joined the team) and before A3 56 (Thor's changed to the look he used when he was taking over Earth).  
<<<

Yup. That's where it is on the calendar. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 08:56 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I'm still hashing out the Reloaded X-stuff, but my personal opinion -- at least as far as the opening arcs go -- is that things flow this way: 

X-Men #157-160 
Astonishing #1-6 
New X-Men #1-6 
Uncanny #444-449 

(Gambit is blinded in X #158, but appears, intended as sighted, in NXM #3 and UX #444-445 -- but we'll work around that later. It's possible he was just wandering around blind without his bandage on -- we never actually see the whites of his eyes.) 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 10:28 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Jeph, I have ASTONX3 1-6 occurring before X 157-160. In ASTONX3 1, Scott outlines his plans for the X-Men and unveils the new costumes, which we see being worn in X 157.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 11:09 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Technically, only Scott and Wolvie are wearing the new costumes -- and since Scott must have come up with them prior to unveiling them, it's plausible that he could be wearing his around prior to Astonishing #1. 

The Beast is still in his Morrison-era costume, and -- more importantly -- Kitty is still in her straight-haired bartender look. AND she's saying "I thought you didn't need me anymore?", which to me indicates that this is AFTER she helped out with the rebuilding of the mansion in XX #46, but BEFORE she has accepted a teaching position at the school and a place on Cyclops' squad, as seen in Astonishing #1. 

Yes, Lockheed is present, but he was also present in XX #46 -- he and Kitty could *still* be there, after the rebuilding was finished. 

Also: in Astonishing #1, Kitty stares up at the REBUILT, COMPLETELY DIFFERENT-LOOKING mansion, and thinks how it looks so familiar. (This is, of course, a mistake, as Joss has her thinking back on classic memories of the classic mansion while staring at a completely new one.) But it can be inferred that she's been to the rebuilt, finished new mansion before. (As in, in X #157.) And that, after she initially reacts badly to Cyclops' "drafting" her (as seen in X #157), she goes back to Chicago, packs her things, gets a haircut, and shows back up at the mansion (Aston #1) -- with Lockheed joining her later (Aston #2). 

Also: in Astonishing #1, the team roster seems fairly set. Yet in X #157, everyone is reacting (badly) to the obviously extremely recent announcement of the roster. 

If you disregard Wolvie's costume as an art mistake, X #157 seems to very clearly fit before Astonishing #1. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 23 Oct 2004 06:02 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Jeph, you've convinced me that X 157-160 occur before ASTONX3 1. Also, students are seen in X 157 showing up for the beginning of the school year, and in ASTONX3 1, we see student orientation. This placement also allows a bit more time for ROGUE3 to occur, as that series must begin after X 160.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 45

Posted: 24 Oct 2004 04:35 pm    Post subject: Hate-Monger question; BTS in Taking AIM?
By Enda80

Was the Cosmic Cube from Taking AIM the same one that the Hate-Monger was trapped in? 


http://www.geocities.com/datacore_faf/modok.html 

AIM's original Cosmic Cube had eventually matured into a sentient life form known as Kubik, which had long since left earth. Since that time, the Red Skull had joined forces with Nazi geneticist Arnim Zola to recreate the Cube. They had been joined in this venture by the Hate-Monger, a reincarnation of Adolf Hitler, whose mind had been transferred into a cloned body at the end of the Second World War by Zola's technology. Ultimately, the Cube they had created had been flawed, and had not worked as the original had, but the Skull had used it to trap the mind of Hitler, since he knew that it was only a matter of time before his one-time mentor betrayed him. Recently however, the Cube had become active and had started to function as the original had. The Super-Adaptoid learned that it was housed at a secret facility owned by the Skull in the Canadian Northwest, and decided to steal it.

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Thread 46

Posted: 24 Oct 2004 05:35 pm    Post subject: Starlord, that crazy Starlord
By Enda80

Starlord Special Edition#1 features new material. 

Starlord Special Edition#1 had that lovely sort of tidbit; a reprint 
with a new framing sequence and epilogue. 

(Starlord Special Edition#1) On the one hundredth anniversary of his 
taking the throne, Jason of Sparta could look back at 50 years of 
peace. Kip, Sandy Alain, Rhys, and Robyn wandered in to see him. 
(Alain, Robyn, and Rhys were Kip and Sandy's sons and daughter.) 
Noting that he waited "eighty years to bear this trio", Jason of 
Sparta decided to tell them a story; a reprint of Marvel Preview#11. 

Not only did Starlord Special Edition have a prologue, it also had an epilogue which I slovenly forgot to mention. Anyway, below you will find a summary. 

This impacts the Starlord, Ship, and Jason of Spatra entries. 

(Starlord Special Edition#1: Epilogue (fb, bts)) Kip attempted to convince Peter to return, but he chose not to. 

(Starlord Special Edition#1: Epilogue) After having sat through the reprint of Marvel Preview#11, the children nodded off. Jason announced that he would abdicate the throne. However, later Starlord returned to see Jason, with Ship present, too. Sandy and Kip came to Jason's bed and found the imperial signet ring and Starlord's helmet, as Jason and Starlord, with Ship, too to the stars. 

This framing sequence had artwork by Michael Golden. It is new 
material.

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Thread 47

Posted: 19 Oct 2004 08:32 am    Post subject: Coming from Marvel in January
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

A very preliminary list posted on Atomikpop.com (via Millarworld) - no doubt somebody will leak the full text in the next day or do. This is the order form, with the list of titles and the backlist catalogue, but no more details than that. http://atomikpop.com/marvel11.txt 

EMMA FROST is missing from the list, and since it would have ended a storyline with December's issue #18, I expect it's been cancelled. No WARLOCK, either - which would be a very quck cancellation, but then it debuted with lower sales than the final issue of WEAPON X. JUBILEE ends with issue #6, and as usual, Marvel are trying to pass it off as "Oh, didn't we mention it was a miniseries?" 

New titles: 

X-MEN: PHOENIX ENDSONG. Five-issue mini. We've known about this one for a while. Definitely canon. 

ARANA: HEART OF THE SPIDER. Ongoing series - the only one this month. Presumably this is the relaunched AMAZING FANTASY, which ends with November's issue #6. Spider-Girl fans can breathe easy, then. 

X-23. Six-issue mini. Again, previously announced. 

SPIDER-MAN/HUMAN TORCH. Five-issue mini. Presumably canon. 

COMBAT ZONE: TRUE TALES OF GIS IN IRAQ. Five-issue mini. Please god let it be tasteful. Anyway, if they're billing it as "true tales", I take it as read that it's not canon. 

STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL. Five-issue mini. Previously announced. Keeps the Thor audience ticking over, I guess. (By the way, Comics Continuum is reporting that January's THOR: SON OF ASGARD #12 will be the final issue.) 

FANTASTIC FOUR FOES. Five issue mini. Because we need four FF books a month!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 09:09 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
SPIDER-MAN/HUMAN TORCH. Five-issue mini. Presumably canon. 
<<<

First I've heard of it. Possibly reprint material, though. 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
FANTASTIC FOUR FOES. Five issue mini. Because we need four FF books a month! 
<<<

Fantastic Four 
Marvel Knights 4 
Ultimate Fantastic Four 
Marvel Age Fantastic Four 
X-Men/Fantastic Four 

Don't know what math you're using, but that's six by my count! 

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Oct 2004 05:47 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Full text is available here. 

For some reason ARANA #1 is on the date list but doesn't seem to get a proper solicitation; however, a solicitation for the first Arana digest confirms that it's a continuation of AMAZING FANTASY. 

SPIDER-MAN/HUMAN TORCH is a series of "five all new old school adventures" set at various points in continuity. It's by Dan Slott and Ty Templeton, so it'll probably be quite good. 

COMBAT ZONE is apparently a miniseries about three months in the life of a US regiment, written by an embedded journalist. It's being presented as essentially non-fiction, so we can confidently assume that it's not canon. 

SECRET WAR crosses over into PULSE. WOLVERINE, rather more surprisingly, crosses over into NEW THUNDERBOLTS and NEW INVADERS, of all places. Well, they could probably use the sales boost. 

FANTASTIC FOUR: FOES is a five issue miniseries by Robert Kirkman, which appears to recount the careers of various FF villains from their point of view.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 21 Oct 2004 03:23 pm    
By Ehain

Arana? Will they write this like that? If they want to write spider in spanish it is Araa. It's not a small difference. Arana doesn't mean anything.

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Posted: 21 Oct 2004 03:51 pm    
By Ant-Man

I think that they'll spell it correctly. Look at this blurb for OFFICIAL HANDBOOK OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE: WOMEN OF MARVEL 2005: 

"Marvels leading ladies take center stage! This Official Handbook includes in-depth bios on more than 40 of the Houses most powerful women warriors  from Araa to Vindicator!" 

somebody knows what they're doing...
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 21 Oct 2004 04:06 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Oh, they're spelling it correctly. I just have no clue how to type that character.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 21 Oct 2004 04:32 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

I disabled that key on your computer anyway. Just to make things difficult.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Oct 2004 06:23 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

I find it disturbing they're already renaming the book after only 6 issues...I mean, what sounds more impressive: AMAZING FANTASY or ARANA: HEART OF THE SPIDER? Hell, that sounds like a tacky Anime name...wouldn't "Spiderwoman" be better? (since that's who she's supposed to be...even though she hasn't even gotten into costume yet...) 

This title is really starting to perplex me...I'm beginning to doubt if it makes it past issue 12, (or issue 6, since they're renaming it)... 

Wasn't "Call of Duty" canon? So what's to prevent "Combat Zone" from being canon? Just because there's no mention of superheroes, doesn't mean it can't be real, (in the context of the Marvel Universe, that is)...after all, the Iraq War did happen in the Marvel Universe, as was demonstrated by recent issues of Iron Man. 

I wonder if they'll make mention of who's Sect. of Defense in the story...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 21 Oct 2004 08:36 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Quote: 
>>>
Wasn't "Call of Duty" canon? So what's to prevent "Combat Zone" from being canon? 
<<<

CALL OF DUTY was fiction. COMBAT ZONE is based on actual events. Big difference. 

-Sean

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Posted: 21 Oct 2004 08:46 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Hmmm...well, Sept. 11th is real, yet Sept. 11th happened in the Marvel Universe as well, (some superheroes just got added into the mix, in dealing with the aftermath)...but I suppose you're right, since this is non-fiction...I'm just saying the exact same events published in "Combat Zone" could've happened in the Marvel Universe's version of the Iraq war...however, I suppose the intent of the miniseries is what's at heart here, and since it's written as "non-fiction" thus, it's "non-canon"...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 22 Oct 2004 01:27 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Oh, they're spelling it correctly. I just have no clue how to type that character.  
<<<

For those interested, here's how you can get the "" character: 
Alt+0241= 
Alt+0209=

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Posted: 22 Oct 2004 04:51 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

ARANA: HEART OF THE SPIDER is meant to sound like a manga name. That's precisely the audience they're going for here. This is meant to be an outreach project - although I don't fancy its chances, since the book is dreary schlock, and the sole selling point seems to be "Hey, she isn't white!" I can't see the manga audience being quite that undiscriminating, and even if they were, there's still a ton of better material available to them. 

COMBAT ZONE isn't in the same category as CALL OF DUTY. COD was expressly set in the Marvel Universe, and was always intended to end up with the three lead characters as a hero team (though they took so long to get there that the book was cancelled before they reached that point!). COMBAT ZONE is being presented expressly as non-fiction - it's an account by an embedded journalist of three months that he spent with US forces in Iraq. Granted that there will be the inevitable conflation of characters and bending into some sort of dramatic shape, it's clearly not being presented as an MU story.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 23 Oct 2004 04:33 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

If you're interested in seeing the covers for Marvel's January solicitations, they're available here: 

http://comics.toonzone.net/solicitations/2005-01/marvel.php 

I'll point out that the solicitations for Spectacular Spiderman #23 and 24 give spoilers to the current Amazing Spiderman arc. And I thought Paul Jenkins was writing the sequel to Sins Past? But it now appears that one of JMS's flunkies is taking over the title? 

There's also spoilers in the picture for MKS-M #10, I believe...and in the write up for Cap. America and the Falcon #11, and in the write up for Fantastic Four #522,(it ruined the ending to the latest issue!) Geez, Marvel...the only title they seem to be able to keep secrets on is Astonishing Xmen...it's like they don't give a damn as far as any other titles go... 

Question: In the solicitation for Arana: Heart of the Spider, not only does Marvel insult all non-Hispanics by calling us gringo's, but they also say that this is Marvel's first Latina superhero. Is this true? I bet there are several instances of Latina superhero's in the Marvel Universe...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 23 Oct 2004 05:18 pm 
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
they also say that this is Marvel's first Latina superhero. Is this true? I bet there are several instances of Latina superhero's in the Marvel Universe... 
<<<


Um...Firebird (Bonita Juarez)...Silverclaw (Maria de Guadelupe Santiago)...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 23 Oct 2004 05:47 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
they also say that this is Marvel's first Latina superhero. Is this true? I bet there are several instances of Latina superhero's in the Marvel Universe... 
<<<

Several, though IIRC this is at least Marvel's first Latino superhero (or either gender) to have her own series. 

-Sean

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Posted: 24 Oct 2004 04:51 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

All of my complaining aside, I'll still pick up the Arana title, for chronology review for the calender. I've been collecting the Amazing Fantasy title, so might as well not stop now. It's just the name change that bugs me more than anything...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 24 Oct 2004 09:47 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Much appreciated, Kevin. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 48

Posted: 25 Oct 2004 06:04 am    Post subject: Fandral Question; when did.......
By Enda80

In what issue was the first meeting between Fandral and Volstagg shown? I ask because I have a copy of Thunderstrike#18 in front of me, and Fandral notes that his activities as Robin Hood predated his first meeting with Volstagg. 

Oh, another odd bit........Thor 401 takes place around 1000 CE. I see it listed before T 404-406's backups, which take place around the time of some Great Flood. I would have to say it was a previous incarnation of Asgard. 

FANDRAL [ASGARDIAN] 
T 401 
T 404/2 
T 405/2 
T 406/2 
T@ 14/4 
T 401

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Thread 49

Posted: 22 Oct 2004 07:05 am    Post subject: Placement of Spectacular #20 (spoiler)
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I have two questions concerning this week's Spectacular Spider-Man #20 that affect its placement: 

1) Who are the two flying heroes who accompany Iron Man and the helicopters on page 1, panel 2? I think one is likely the Vision, which would confirm my placement of this story arc before Disassembled. (BTW, that whole Disassembled label on this story arc was just a cheap marketing trick, as far as I can tell. No plot tie-ins to A 500-503 at all.) 

SPOILER BELOW 
* 
* 
* 
* 
* 
* 
* 

2) In this issue, Peter is mutated so that he is now able to spin webs naturally. Now given Aunt May's disappearance in M/KS-M 1, I've placed this Spectacular story arc before M/KS-M 1. Before I go back and pour through M/KS-M 1-7, can someone tell me if there is anything in those issues to show that Peter does or does not have this new ability?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 23 Oct 2004 11:32 am    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Which one looks like Vision to you? I thought the one in the back of the panel behind Iron Man looked like Vision. The other one, (the one flying up towards the top of the panel) looks female to me, so I thought it was Scarlet Witch or...Moondragon...bah! Beat's me.... 

Also, where do you have the current ASM issues in comparison to this Spec. Spiderman arc? Because going by the solicitations for January, there's going to be a direct sequel to the "Sins Past" story arc in Spec. Spiderman #23...if it follows directly on the heels of Sins Past, then does Spidey have "Natural Webs" in the Sins Past arc?
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 23 Oct 2004 03:26 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Also, where do you have the current ASM issues in comparison to this Spec. Spiderman arc?  
<<<

I have the current ASM2 story arc ("Sins Past") before the current PPTSS2* story arc. 

*Is this really the code for the current "Spectacular Spider-Man," which has no "Peter Parker" in the title?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 04:01 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Peter is still relying on his webshooters as of MKSM 6 (where he is dropped from a height by the Vulture and can't save himself because he isn't wearing them).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 07:12 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Oh, crap. That's right. In M/KS-M 4, he's falling and notes that he can't save himself because he's "not wearing web shooters." So that means either: 
1) the current story arc in M/KS-M must occur before PPTSS2 15, or... 
2) Peter must lose his natural ability to shoot webs in an as-yet unpublished story between PPTSS2 20 and M/KS-M 1, or... 
3) Peter is shaken up in M/K-SM 4 and isn't thinking straight. 

We have evidence that M/KS-M (at least issues 1-6) occurs before Disassembled. The question remains about the relationship between Disassembled and PPTSS2 15-20 -- IS that the Vision on page 1 of PPTSS2 20?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 08:11 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
IS that the Vision on page 1 of PPTSS2 20? 
<<<

Yes. Yes it is. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 02:38 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Note that there's no way this storyline can be shoehorned between issues of MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN. May Parker appears in SPECTACULAR #19; it can't be before she was kidnapped in MKSM 1 (because Peter's still relying on his webshooters in MKSM 6), so it must be after she's eventually rescued. 

So if you want to place this before Avengers Disassembled, then that storyline can't happen during MKSM either.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 08:09 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Right. I never considered shoehorning as an option because of Aunt May's appearances in PPTSS2 19 and 20. I'm going to see about moving the whole M/KS-M story arc (and the DD2 tie-in I'd like to maintain) back before PPTSS2 15 and see how that works. I know off-hand that one piece of calendar evidence that supports doing this is the fact that Peter seems to have a new class to teach in M/KS-M 1, so it could be the start of a new school year here, while PPTSS2 19 would occur the Friday night before Thursday the twenty-third, or October 17. We'll see how this re-placement will work given the many other related threads in the MU cobweb.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 50

Posted: 13 Oct 2004 09:50 pm    Post subject: CX 27/2, XCAL 107-(f/b), CX 1
By Jason Doty

I've been trying to compare chronology's for the X-Men issue by issue starting with Giant Size X-Men 1 and Classic X-Men. 
First, I think it would be benificial if we listed between what pages and panels if a book falls between the pages of another book. Using the original book as reference. Also, if there are more than one flashback in a comic, list (f/b 1), (f/b 2), ect... 
Second, in analyzing GSX 1 and CX 1, CX 27/2 dosn't fit between the pages of CX 1. I think it would fit better after UX 94 between the time the old X-Men say they are leaving. Then Cyclops, Jean, and Wolverine go out for a burger. Then Cyclops stays up pondering what to do. The following morning the old X-Men leave. 
I know this has been brought up before, but don't know if the group came to a concensus. 
Third, I looked at the flashback in XCAL 107-(f/b) and it does not show anything new for Colossus or Professor X, the Colossus flashback only shows things from a slightly different angle, but nothing new. It should be struck from their chronology's. 
Fourth and finally, CX 1 the first several pages are not presented as a flashback, even though we saw them in one first. I think these should supercied the flashback if they are presented this way. 
Example would be Cyclops 

GSX 1-(F/B) (X-Men go to Krakoa, Cyclops sent back) 
CX 1 (pgs. 1-4) (Cyclops returns to Xavier, then practices) 
GSX 1 
CX 1 (pgs.17-22) (the X-Mens first night) 

I actually didn't count the pages I was just doing a rough thing, and I also just showed what happened for example. I hope that makes sense. 
Tell me what you think.

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Posted: 14 Oct 2004 08:15 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Classic X-Men #27/2 actually looks to come much later ... Jean appears to have Phoenix powers, and she knows Logan's real name. I actually addressed its re-placement a little bit in the "Wedding of Cyclops and Phoenix" thread a few months ago, but I don't think I came to a conclusion. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Oct 2004 09:15 am    
By Jason Doty

Quote: 
>>>
Incidentally, I'm not sure why CX #27/2 is stuck between pages of CX #1  except for Jean's line in the story about how "one of them" (her or Logan) "should leave the X-Men". In that context, it fits with Jean's decision to leave in CX #1 p.31-32, but the story itself doesn't seem to occur on the same night as GSX #1/CX #1. For one, the waiter/cook implies that Scott, Jean, and Logan's presence at the burger joint is the result of a "wrong turn", which implies they're fairly far from home  and although it's conceivable that they could get lost in and around Salem Center (especially if Logan was driving), or that the burger guy is making an incorrect assumption, I doubt the three of them would go out for burgers while the rest of the new X-Men are uneasily trying to fit in back at the mansion. Also, it really looks like Jean is manifesting the Phoenix raptor on the final page  which would place the story after UX #101. And Jean knows Wolvie's real name, too, which as far as I know he *never* revealed to her  Nightcrawler didn't even learn it until UX #139, after Jean's "death"  and Jean's diary entry for that night says that the "mutant who calls himself Wolverine  refuses to reveal anything about himself".  
<<<


Sorry if I didn't copy paste your original post correctly. 
The reason I came to the assumption of inbetween UX 94 was it definately does not fit between CX 1, and the line about leaving. There is one night passing between them announcing there leaving and them doing so. This I believe is how Jean is saying that she is going to correct the advances that Wolverine is making. I think they could get lost, while looking for a place for Jean or anything else. It could have been an erand. As far as the Phoenix raptor at the end, has'nt it been with Jean since X-Men: the Hidden Years and then offically replaces her in UX 101. As far as the name thing, maybe Logan confided in her but no one else. 
Speaking of which would'nt that give Phoenix a behind the scenes appearance from the story in Hidden Years to UX 101, sort of slowly emerging.

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Posted: 14 Oct 2004 12:42 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
As far as the Phoenix raptor at the end, has'nt it been with Jean since X-Men: the Hidden Years and then offically replaces her in UX 101. 
<<<

No. It encountered her once in Hidden Years #9, then encountered her a second time in UX #101 -- but it *wasn't* following her around or living inside her in the iterim. 

If that IS the Phoenix raptor in CX #27/2, then the story has to take place after UX #101. (The main story in CX #27 reprinted UX #121, by the way ... maybe we should look for placement options in that timeframe? Anything wrong with placing CX #27/2 between UX #121-122?) 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Oct 2004 05:42 pm    Post subject: Placing this later !!
By Jason Doty

First, Jean and Scott are not reunited after the X-Men are beluieved dead untill UX 126 (The X-Men were believed to be dead after their battle with Magneto that seperated Jean and Beast from the rest of the X-Men, UX 113) 
So, to put it later it would have to be after UX 129 and before UX 137 
Or it has to go prior to UX 113 and after UX 110, where Jean returns to the X-Men full time. 
Any suggestions? 
Maybe between 110 and 111

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Posted: 14 Oct 2004 06:04 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Given Jean's comment to Logan that "one of them should leave the X-Men", it would appear that she's a member at the time. So I'd be inclined to place this after the X-Men's return from Scotland -- possibly in-between pp.6-7 of UX #129, in the span of "days" mentioned there. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 14 Oct 2004 06:33 pm    
By Jason Doty

She returns to the X-Men at the end of 110, officially. I think it should be placed earlier in their chronology's because of the getting to know each other feel to the story, also after the Proteus story Wolverine is a major contributor to the team. I don't think anyone would have asked him to leave after the events from UX 111-128. Even her.

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 02:27 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Okay -- I agree provisionally on a new placement for CX #27/2 between UX #110-111. 

However, one of your other assertions, that the Colossus FB in Excal #107 adds nothing new, is NOT correct. Every single panel in that FB contains new material -- new lines in the first two, and new scenes in the final two (Illyana hugs Colossus, and Colossus gets in Prof. X's car). 

Expect a LARGE post about GSX #1 from me very soon. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 07:57 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Classic X-Men #27/2 actually looks to come much later ... Jean appears to have Phoenix powers, and she knows Logan's real name. I actually addressed its re-placement a little bit in the "Wedding of Cyclops and Phoenix" thread a few months ago, but I don't think I came to a conclusion.  
<<<

Would there have been any reason for the Official Marvel Index to the X-Men v2 #2 to place CX 27/2 between pages of CX 1 for Cyclops and Marvel Girl and between CX 1 and UX 94 for Wolverine?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 08:05 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

That placement isn't even consistent with itself -- Jean and Wolvie appeared on pp.25-30, and Jean appeared with Prof. X on pp.31-32 -- so if it goes "between CX #1 and UX #94" for Wolvie but "between pages of CX #1" for Jean, then they mean for it to occur between pp.30-31 of CX #1. 

However, that would mean that it'd go *between CX #1 and UX #94* for Cyclops, too -- as his last appearance in CX #1 is on p.20. 

That said, I suspect whoever wrote the Index placed it there simply because that's where they thought it went. It's a fairly ambiguously written story. At first glance it *could* go there -- but after thinking about it for a bit, in my opinion, it probably shouldn't. This wouldn't be the first time I've disagreed with the Indexes, and it likely won't be the last either... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 08:32 pm    
By Jason Doty

I 'll admit to doing a cursory glance at XCAL 107, I'll check it out again. Also, I updated the post I made about reviewing CX and UX, with your suggestion about what is going on in the extra scenes. CX 26/2 and 28/2 also occur around UX 110, I think Claremont was fitting these stories in that time frame. I also want to move the hunter vs. Wolverine story between the pages of UX 121 and the CX issues last page. Other than that I think what I've done is pretty spot on. Maybe you and David Hall could review it for his read list. Next, I'll go through the PXX and see what I can do

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 09:00 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Claremont didn't write the back-ups for #26-28 -- they were written by Tom Orzechowski and Ann Nocenti. Claremont only wrote #19, 21-24 and #29 from that period. 

Also, I think we've pretty much come to the unanimous conclusion that, with the exception of #4, PXX is non-canon. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 09:20 pm    
By Dhall

Perhaps we need to review placements for all of the CX back up stories. 27 always did seem a little out of place where the index put it. 

I tried looking into PXX once myself, because I really wanted it to work, but it doesn't. Go ahead and poke into a couple of issues, you'll understand why I gave up. 

Dave H

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 09:44 pm    
By Jason Doty

David check out the post I did, a little farther down the list, specifically the second post I did about CX and UX. Oh! and my bad about the Claremont thing. I just assumed he wrote the back-ups. I'm still new at reviewing chronologies and analyzing. I'll attempt to be more accurate with my posts. Also maybe we can move that review into the review section.

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 10:28 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
That said, I suspect whoever wrote the Index placed it there simply because that's where they thought it went. It's a fairly ambiguously written story. At first glance it *could* go there -- but after thinking about it for a bit, in my opinion, it probably shouldn't. This wouldn't be the first time I've disagreed with the Indexes, and it likely won't be the last either...  


So noted. I've moved tentative placement of CX 27/2 to a spot between X 110 and 111. It looks like other X-Men appearances take place during that gap. Any idea where to place CX 27/2 relative to those?
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 51

Posted: 25 Oct 2004 11:00 pm    Post subject: Giant-Size X-Men #1, and all that mingles with it...
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Ever had one of those times when you're hard at work on a project  say, analyzing a troublesome comic for the MCP  and you find yourself digressing into a side project that demands almost as much of your time? 

While analyzing What If v2 #9, I discovered that the MCPs interlocking of Giant-Size X-Men #1 and its much-embellished reprint in Classic X-Men #1 is pretty scanty. There's a healthy amount of overlap between the two issues, but on the MCP its only listed as: 

GSX #1-FB 
CX #1 
GSX #1 
CX #1 

That's not even the half of it  there's so much more interlocking than that. Heck, GSX #1 itself is more complex than just one FB followed by the main story. Here's how GSX #1 flows, just by itself: 

p.1  a symbolic page heroically showcasing the new X-Men. Discardable. 

p.29 panels 2-4 (FB)  the origin of Krakoa, as atomic tests mutate everything on the island into a colony intelligence. 

p.16-p.17 panel 5 (FB)  Prof. X sends the X-Men on a mission to Krakoa. Shortly after arriving, they are ambushed by  something. 

(p.29 panel 5  this FB just shows us p.17 panel 5 from Krakoa's POV  the only new information it adds is Krakoa's hand descending upon the X-Men. Normally, this would be added in order to change Krakoa from a BTS in the p.17 panel 5 FB into a full-on appearance  but since Krakoa IS the island, he appears on-panel in that panel anyway. In this case, the FB can safely be discarded.) 

p.17 panel 6 (FB)  coruscating energy fills the entire panel. 

p.29 panel 6 (FB)  after a time, Krakoa frees Cyclops, hoping he'll bring him more mutants to feed on. In this panel, we see Cyclops stumbling out of the chamber where the X-Men are captive  we see Iceman and Marvel Girl on-panel, and Havok, Polaris and Angel are obviously BTS. 

p.18-p.19 panel 4 (FB)  Cyclops awakens to find himself on board the X-Men's jet, the autopilot set for home and his optic blasts gone. He returns to the mansion and explains what happened to Prof. X, just as his blasts return, stronger than ever. 

pp.2-15  Prof. X gathers a new team of mutants to help rescue the X-Men. 

p.19 panel 5-p.36  the new X-Men travel to Krakoa, free the original team, and send the island hurtling into space. 

So, GSX #1 alone reads like this: 

GSX #1-FB (p.29 panels 2-4) 
GSX #1-FB (pp.16-17) 
GSX #1-FB (p.29 panel 6) 
GSX #1-FB (p.18-p.19 panel 4) 
GSX #1 (pp.2-15, p.19 panel 5-p.36) 

-------- 

And CX #1 complicates matters even more. Here's a rundown of what it recaps and what it adds: 

p.1 ~ GSX #1 p.18 panel 8 

p.2 panels 1-2  NEW: although the line "where are the others?" is repeated from GSX #1 p.18 panel 8, the rest of the scene  Xavier using his mental powers to read Cyclops' memories  is new. (By the way, I take "panel 2" to be Prof. X's floating head in the center of the page, and the memories around it to be "panels 3-6".) 

p.2 panel 3 (FB)  NEW: Iceman, Jean and Havok look around shortly after de-planing  a scene we never see in GSX #1 (on p.16, Jean is IN the plane in panel 3, and ambushed in panel 5  and panel 4 only shows Cyclops and Angel). Presumably, then, this new panel takes place simultaneously with GSX #1 p.17 panel 4. 

p.2 panel 4 (FB) ~ GSX #1 p.17 panel 5 

p.2 panel 5 (FB)  NEW: Cyclops is felled by the energy bolt seen in GSX #1 p.17 panel 6. 

p.2 panel 6 (FB) ~ GSX #1 p.18 panel 7 
p.3 panel 1 ~ GSX #1 p.19 panel 1 
p.3 panel 2 ~ GSX #1 p.19 panel 2 (word balloons 1-3) 
p.3 panel 3 ~ GSX #1 p.19 panel 2 (word balloon 2) and panel 3 

p.3 panel 4-p.4 panel 5  NEW: Prof. X ties a cloth around Cyclops' eyes, commenting that his powers have been amplified. Later, after finishing using Cerebro, he informs Scott (who is practicing with his new powers in the Danger Room) that he is going to recruit new mutants to help liberate the original team. 

pp.5-16  a straight-up reprint of GSX #1 pp.2-13. 

p.17 panel 1  NEW: this panel doesnt really fit. Visually it's a rehash of GSX #1 p.14, but Cyclops is in the background  and he doesn't come into the room until p.15 panel 3. It's conceivable that all the new X-Men are still standing in the same spot when he arrives, which would place it sometime after p.15 panel 3  except in this new panel, Thunderbird is asking why they've been brought there, and by Cyclops entry in p.15 panel 3, Prof. X and Cyclops are beginning to answer that question. My recommendation is to wedge it between GSX #1 p.15 panels 2-3, assume that Cyclops JUST walked into frame in the CX panel, and ignore the motion lines on the doors in GSX p.15 panel 3. 

p.17 panel 2  NEW: although Cyclops' line "the X-Men have disappeared" is repeated (with the usual mild dialogue tweaks that crop up in FBs), the rest of the panel is new dialogue for him. 

Overall, the dialogue for the combined scene should read like this: 

GSX #1 p.15 panels 1-2: 
(Sunfire moves from halfway up the stairs to confront Prof. X.) 
Sunfire: "Right now you will tell us why you dragged us here, Professor. I, for one, am swiftly losing my patience!" 
Prof. X: "Sunfire, please  it was not my intention to waste your time. I've merely awaited the arrival of one who can explain the situation far better than I." 

(a short amount of time passes  Sunfire returns to his spot halfway up the stairs.) 

CX #1 p.17 panel 1: 
Banshee: "We're here, Xavier  all dolled up pretty as you please." 
Thunderbird: "Now tell us why?" 
(Cyclops walks into the edge of the frame, behind Prof. X.) 

GSX #1 p.15 panels 3-4: 
(Cyclops stands silhouetted in front of swinging doors. Despite the motion lines, he must be *catching* the doors as they swing *back* towards him.) 
Prof. X: "My friends, allow me to present Scott Summers  the man called Cyclops! He will fill you in on the details." 
Cyclops: "The 'details', people are depressingly simple! You have been called here because  the X-Men have disappeared!" 

CX #1 p.17 panel 2: (Cyclops' line "the X-Men have disappeared, Thunderbird" must be an edited recap of his line in GSX #1.) 
Cyclops: "It's our job to find them  and the mutant responsible. And deal with him." 

GSX #1 p.15 panel 5: 
Cyclops: "You seven are our only hope of  but I'm getting ahead of myself. Come on. I may as well show you where it all began!" 

He then takes them into the Cerebro chamber. The two scenes aren't a PERFECT fit, but I think this is the best fit we're going to get. 


Anyway, back to the rundown of what CX #1 recaps and adds 

p.17 panel 3  I suppose this is a re-posed GSX #1 p.22 panel 1, although Storm and Colossus disagreement in that panel is missing. Id be tempted to call it a new panel that occurred after they stopped arguing  but in GSX p.22 panel 2, Thunderbird comments that the pair have reached the ground and are *still* arguing  so presumably they argued all the way down. Therefore this scene, where they float down calmly, cant really have "happened", and must simply be a re-posed flashback that adds no new information. 

p.17 panel 4 ~ GSX #1 p.27 panel 5 (Cyclops, Colossus and Storm cropped out) 

p.18 panel 1  a re-posed version of the fight scene from GSX #1 p.31 panel 1  Id be tempted to call it a new scene from the same fight, but since the narration in GSX #1 tells us that the panel is meant to sum up the entire fight, Im content to just let this one go. 

p.18 "panel 2" (inset  Prof. X's head) ~ GSX #1 p.32 panel 1 
p.18 "panel 3" (between panel borders  Storm and Polaris) ~ GSX #1 p.33 panel 1 
p.18 panel 4 ~ GSX #1 p.35 panel 1 
p.18 panel 5 ~ GSX #1 p.36 panel 6 (word balloons only) and panel 7 

pp.19-32  NEW: after Krakoas defeat, the new X-Men spend their first night at Xaviers. 

-------- 

Think that intertwining will be complicated? It gets worse. 

There are several other comics intertwining with GSX #1: 

- Defenders #15-16: These issues guest-star Prof. X, with the X-Men away on some "secret mission". According to the MCP, these issues take place while the X-Men are prisoners of Krakoa. #16 ends with Magneto and his brotherhood reduced to infancy. 


- X-Men #2 p.16 panel 1 (FB): Prof. X gives the infant Magneto to Moira, to live at her Muir Island research facility. The MCP has this placed while the X-Men were prisoners of Krakoa  and I'd be tempted to disagree, based on a scene in CX #2 (occurring between pp.8-9 of UX #94) where Moira receives a telegram and thinks "after all these years, he's sent for me"  implying that Charles and Moira havent spoken in years at the time of UX #94. However, retcons make this impossible  in X:HY #10, Charles takes Jean to Muir Island for some tests, and we see that Charles and Moira are in fairly constant contact back then, pursuing mutant research together. (Oddly, though, Charles is hiding this fact from the rest of the X-Men.) 

So the X #2 FB can remain where it is  and Moira's line, to herself, in CX #2 can refer to the notion that, "after all these years" of aiding his research clandestinely, Charles has "sent" for her  asked finally her to step forward and assist him *openly* at the mansion. 

(By the way, the MCP has this FB occurring *before* X:HY #10 in Moira's chronology  it, and the X #2 p.17 panel 4 FB showing Moira experimenting on the infant Magneto, need to be moved to after X:HY #10.) 

(Also, Moira is credited for a BTS in UX #94, which I don't understand  nothing that occurs in that issue was in any way caused by her  and according to the new material in CX #2, Moira wasnt even aware of the events in UX #94. This BTS should likely be removed.) 


- Alpha Flight #52 p.4 panels 2-5 (FB): Guardian tries to convince Wolverine not to resign from Dept. H. This flashback can stay right where it is, just after GSX #1 pp.5-6. 


- Excalibur #107 p.8 (FB): In one of two FBs in this issue, Colossus recalls his first meeting with Prof. X  and virtually every panel is new: 

p.8 panel 2  Colossus shouts warnings at Illyana as he races towards her. 
p.8 panel 3  Colossus punches the tractor, shouting "Nyet!" Although we see Colossus winding up in GSX #1 p.10 panel 7, and tractor parts go flying in GSX #1 p.11 panel 1, we never see Colossus actually *connect* with the tractor until now  and his "Nyet" line is certainly new. 
p.8 panel 4  this *might* be a re-posed version of GSX #1 p.11 panel 2, or it might be a new scene occurring shortly after  Colossus hugs his little sister. 
p.8 panel 5  Colossus gets in Prof. X's car as his family waves goodbye. 

Assuming that p.8 panel 4 *is* a new scene, then the MCP has this FB listed correctly. 


- Excalibur #107 p.11 (FB): In the other FB this issue, Nightcrawler recalls his first meeting with Prof. X  and this FB is much more in line with the original scene: 

p.11 panel 1  a re-posed version of GSX #1 p.3 panel 1. 
p.11 panel 2  GSX #1 p.3 panel 3, with new lines for the villagers, and new information for Nightcrawler  showing that he *teleported* from the roof to above the crowd, rather than leaping, as GSX #1 seems to show. 
p.11 panel 3 ~ GSX #1 p.4 panel 1 
p.11 panel 4  this *might* be a new scene  actually showing Prof. X on-panel as he orders the mob to stop, as opposed to his off-panel order in GSX #1 p.4 panel 1  or it could merely be a simplified, inexact flashback, boiling his line from p.4 panel 1 and a re-posed visual from p.4 panel 3 down into one image. As the only truly "new" thing about this scene is Prof. X holding his hand up, I'm tempted to just call it a re-posed simplified flashback and move on. 

(However, Nightcrawler's "Bamf" in panel 2 *does*, to me, represent substantively new material.) 


- X-Men: Liberators #2 p.1-p.2 panel 5 (FB). This is another problematic flashback that doesnt quite fit. It seems to show Prof. X accepting Colossus affirmative decision to join the team, and shows the new X-Men (including Cyclops, Thunderbird and Sunfire) sizing him up  and Wolvie startling him with his claws in order to get a rise out of him. Now, the impression I get from Nightcrawler and Wolverines comments is that this is the very first time theyve seen him in metal form  and right now the MCP seems to have it somewhere between GSX #1 p.13-p.20 panel 3. The trouble is, theres not really enough time in there. Cyclops is present in this FB, and GSX #1 makes a big point of Cyclops entrance to the assembled group, as discussed above. As soon as he enters, events move very quickly: he immediately tells them of the old X-Men's ambush, argues briefly with Sunfire, and "moments later" they're airborne to Krakoa. There's simply no time for Wolvie to mess with Colossus while everyone else watches  unless we ignore both the "moments later" notation and Cyclops line about not having time to argue with Sunfire, and place it between p.20 panels 2-3. 

Which we may have to do. Its possible that after Sunfire declined to help the X-Men in p.20 panel 2, Prof. X quickly went around the room and confirmed that everyone else *would* help. This would explain why Prof. X seems to be accepting Colossus affirmative decision ("Excellent, my boy"), and it gives us a pause in the action for Wolvie to test his reactions. Again, its not a perfect fit, but it seems to be the best option. 


- X-Men: the Wedding Album p.15 (FB and BTS): As I discussed a few months ago in my "Wedding of Scott and Jean" thread, the FB image, of the new X-Men freeing the old X-Men from Krakoa's vines, occurs at a different time than Jean's diary entry for that day, where she talks about meeting Wolverine "tonight" and being touched by his gentle soul. Both, to me, represent new material  I suggest giving Jean a BTS appearance at the time she wrote the entry. Only Cyclops, Marvel Girl, Iceman, Banshee, Wolverine and Krakoa's vines are visible in the FB  presumably the rest of the new X-Men are freeing (or have just freed) the rest of the old team, but the chamber is large enough that I feel comfortable *not* giving them all BTS appearances for this scene. 


Finally, two last bits of errata: 

As discussed in another thread, CX #27/2 should be moved from its current MCP placement  somewhere within CX #1 pp.19-32  and moved to a later point. Jason Doty suggests a placement between UX #110-111, and I provisionally agree  he suggests a placement just before CX #17/2. This, by the way, would mean deleting this story entirely from Marvel Girls chronology, and adding it to Phoenix IIs. 

And finally, in GSX #1, Krakoa claims that Prof. X gathered the new X-Men "at the command of a voice only he could hear." This would give Krakoa a BTS for the scene where Prof. X decides to seek them out with Cerebro  except we never see such a scene. CX #1 cuts from Prof. X binding Cyclops eyes to "later", as he *finishes* his Cerebro search. I would try to give Krakoa a BTS for this general area of CX #1 anyway, except for one thing  this entire post diverged from a write-up I was doing on What If v2 #9, and its that issue that actually shows Prof. X beginning his Cerebro search. I deliberately left WI2 #9 out of this post  Ill cover its additions to GSX #1, including Krakoas BTS for that scene, in my analysis of the issue. 

-------- 

Okay, everyone ready? Below is what I feel to be the appropriate chain of events: 

GSX #1-FB p.29 panels 2-4  the origin of Krakoa, as atomic tests mutate everything on the island into a colony intelligence. 
GSX #1-FB p.16 panel 1-p.17 panel 4  Prof. X sends the X-Men on a mission to Krakoa  on p.17 panel 3, theyre still de-planing. 
CX #1-FB p.2 panel 3  Iceman, Jean and Havok look around shortly after de-planing  a scene we never see in GSX #1. Presumably this new panel takes place simultaneously with GSX #1 p.17 panel 4. 
GSX #1-FB p.17 panels 5-6  the X-Men are ambushed by Krakoa. 
CX #1-FB p.2 panel 5  Cyclops is struck down. 
DEF #15-16  These issues guest-star Prof. X, with the X-Men away on some "secret mission". Magneto is reduced to infancy. 
X #2-FB p.16 panel 1  Prof. X gives the infant Magneto to Moira, to live at her Muir Island research facility. 
X #2-FB p.17 panel 4  Moira experiments on the infant Magneto. 
GSX #1-FB p.29 panel 6  after a time, Krakoa frees Cyclops, who stumbles out of the chamber where the X-Men are captive  we see Iceman and Marvel Girl on-panel, and Havok, Polaris and Angel are obviously BTS. 
GSX #1-FB p.18 panels 1-8  Cyclops finds himself aboard the X-Mens jet, the autopilot set for home and his optic blasts gone. 
CX #1 p.2 panels 1-2  Prof. X scans Cyclops memory of Krakoas attack. 
GSX #1-FB p.18 panel 9-p.19 panel 4  Cyclops optic blasts return, stronger than ever. 
CX #1 p.3 panel 4-p.4 panel 5  Prof. X binds Cyclops eyes shut. Later, after using Cerebro, he informs Cyclops that hes about to recruit new members. 
GSX #1 p.2 panel 1-p.3 panel 2  a mob of angry villagers chase Nightcrawler. 
XCAL #107-FB p.11 panel 2  Nightcrawler teleports into the air above the villagers. 
GSX #1 p.3 panel 3-p.10 panel 4  Nightcrawler attacks the villagers, and is about to be killed when Prof. X intervenes. He recruits Nightcrawler, and goes on to recruit most of the other new X-Men. Meanwhile in Russia, an out-of-control tractor rushes towards Colossus sister Illyana. He races towards her, changing to metal form 
XCAL #107 p.8 panel 2  Colossus shouts warnings as he runs in metal form. 
GSX #1 p.10 panels 5-7  Colossus snatches up Illyana, and winds up 
XCAL #107 p.8 panel 3  Colossus punches the tractor, shouting "Nyet!" 
GSX #1 p.11 panels 1-2  tractor parts go flying, and Colossus and Illyana stare down at the ruined tractor. 
XCAL #107 p.8 panel 4  Colossus and Illyana embrace. 
GSX #1 p.11 panel 3-p.12 panel 1  Prof. X arrives and recruits Colossus. 
XCAL #107 p.8 panel 5  Colossus gets in Prof. X's car as his family waves goodbye. 
GSX #1 p.12 panel 2-p.15 panel 2  Prof. X recruits Thunderbird, and gathers the assembled new team at the mansion, where they wait for Cyclops arrival. 
CX #1 p.17 panel 1  Thunderbird asks why theyve been gathered. Cyclops is walking into frame. 
GSX #1 p.15 panels 3-4  Cyclops arrives and announces that the X-Men have disappeared. 
CX #1 p.17 panel 2  Cyclops expands on that statement, saying that its their job to locate them. 
GSX #1 p.15 panel 5-p.20 panel 2  Cyclops describes the original X-Mens capture, and Sunfire refuses to help. 
X:L #2-FB p.1 panel 1-p.2 panel 5  While Prof. X presumably checks that everyone else *will* help, Colossus displays his metal form and Wolverine tries to get a rise out of him. 
GSX #1 p.20 panel 3-p.28 panel 1  the new X-Men travel to Krakoa and locate the original team. 
X:WA-FB p.15  the new X-Men free the old team from Krakoas vines. 
GSX #1 p.28 panel 2-p.36 panel 7  both teams of X-Men battle Krakoa and send the island hurtling into space. 
CX #1 pp.19-30  after Krakoas defeat, the new X-Men spend their first night at Xaviers. 
(CX #27/2  should be moved from this spot and placed between CX #17/2 and UX #111.) 
X:WA-BTS p.15  during her sleepless night, Jean writes a diary entry about her first meeting with Wolverine. 
CX #1 pp.31-32  the next morning, Jean talks with Prof. X about leaving the team. 
(UX #94  Moiras BTS for this issue should likely be removed.) 

-------- 

If this order is agreeable, that gives us the following MCP-style individual listings: 

ANGEL 
 
M/TU #23 
GSX #1-FB p.16 panel 1-p.17 panel 6 
*GSX #1-FB-BTS p.29 panel 6 
GSX #1 p.27 panel 5-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
UX #94 
 


BANSHEE 
 
CA #172 
GSX #1 p.7 panel 1-p.15 panel 2 
*CX #1 p.17 panel 1 
*GSX #1-BTS p.15 panels 3-4 (Banshee must be BTS here, listening to Cyclops speech.) 
*CX #1-BTS p.17 panel 2 (Banshee must be BTS here, listening to Cyclops speech.) 
*GSX #1 p.15 panel 5-p.20 panel 2 
X:L #2-FB p.1 panel 1-p.2 panel 5 
*GSX #1 p.20 panel 3-p.28 panel 1 
*X:WA-FB p.15 
GSX #1 p.28 panel 2-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
UX #94 
 


COLOSSUS II 
 
PXX #4-FB 
{GSX #1} p.9 panel 7-p.10 panel 4 
XCAL #107-FB p.8 panel 2 
GSX #1 p.10 panels 5-7 
XCAL #107-FB p.8 panel 3 
GSX #1 p.11 panels 1-2 
XCAL #107-FB p.8 panel 4 
GSX #1 p.11 panel 3-p.12 panel 1 
XCAL #107-FB p.8 panel 5 
*GSX #1 p.14 panel 1-p.15 panel 2 
*CX #1 p.17 panel 1 
*GSX #1-BTS p.15 panels 3-4 (Colossus must be BTS here, listening to Cyclops speech.) 
*CX #1-BTS p.17 panel 2 (Colossus must be BTS here, listening to Cyclops speech.) 
GSX #1 p.15 panel 5-p.20 panel 2 
X:L #2-FB p.1 panel 1-p.2 panel 5 
GSX #1 p.20 panel 3-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
UX #94 
 


CYCLOPS II 
 
M/TU #23 
GSX #1-FB p.16 panel 1-p.17 panel 6 
*CX #1-FB p.2 panel 5 
*GSX #1-FB p.29 panel 6 
*GSX #1-FB p.18 panels 1-8 
*CX #1-BTS p.2 panels 1-2 (Prof. X speaks to an off-panel Cyclops, and scans his mind  although he doesnt appear on-panel, does this give Cyclops a BTS here?) 
*GSX #1-FB p.18 panel 9-p.19 panel 4 
CX #1 p.3 panel 4-p.17 panel 1 
*GSX #1 p.15 panels 3-4 
*CX #1 p.17 panel 2 
*GSX #1 p.15 panel 5-p.20 panel 2 
X:L #2-FB p.1 panel 1-p.2 panel 5 
*GSX #1 p.20 panel 3-p.28 panel 1 
*X:WA-FB p.15 
GSX #1 p.28 panel 2-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
(CX #27/2  should be moved from this spot) 
UX #94 
 
GR2 #34 
CX #27/2 (should be moved to this spot) 
CX #17/2 
 


HAVOK 
 
CA #175 
GSX #1-FB p.16 panel 1-p.17 panel 3 
*CX #1-FB p.2 panel 3 
*GSX #1-FB p.17 panels 5-6 
*GSX #1-FB-BTS p.29 panel 6 
GSX #1 p.20 panel 3-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
UX #94 
 


ICEMAN 
 
M/TU #23 
GSX #1-FB p.16 panel 1-p.17 panel 3 
*CX #1-FB p.2 panel 3 
*GSX #1-FB p.17 panels 5-6 
*GSX #1-FB p.29 panel 6 
*GSX #1 p.27 panel 5-p.28 panel 1 
*X:WA-FB p.15 
GSX #1 p.28 panel 2-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
UX #94 
 


KRAKOA 

*{GSX #1-FB} p.29 panels 2-4 
*GSX #1-FB p.16 panel 1-p.17 panel 4 
*CX #1-FB p.2 panel 3 
*GSX #1-FB p.17 panels 5-6 
*CX #1-FB p.2 panel 5 
*GSX #1-FB p.29 panel 6 
*GSX #1 p.21 panel 1-p.28 panel 1 
*X:WA-FB p.15 
GSX #1 p.28 panel 2-p.36 panel 7 
Q #14-BTS 
Q #15 


MACTAGGERT, MOIRA 
 
UX #300-FB 
X:HY #10 (moved to this spot) 
X #2-FB p.16 panel 1 
X #2-FB p.17 panel 4 
(X:HY #10  moved from this spot) 
(UX #94-BTS  this should likely be removed) 
CX #2 
 


MARVEL GIRL 
 
M/TU #23 
GSX #1-FB p.16 panel 1-p.17 panel 3 
*CX #1-FB p.2 panel 3 
*GSX #1-FB p.17 panels 5-6 
*GSX #1-FB p.29 panel 26 
*GSX #1 p.27 panel 5-p.28 panel 1 
*X:WA-FB p.15 
GSX #1 p.28 panel 2-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
(CX #27/2  should be deleted) 
*X:WA-BTS p.15 
CX #1 pp.31-32 
UX #94 
 


NIGHTCRAWLER 
 
UX@ 4-FB 
*{GSX #1} p.2 panel 1-p.3 panel 2 
*XCAL #107-FB p.11 panel 2 
GSX #1 p.3 panel 3-p.15 panel 2 
*CX #1 p.17 panel 1 
*GSX #1-BTS p.15 panels 3-4 (Nightcrawler must be BTS here, listening to Cyclops speech.) 
*CX #1-BTS p.17 panel 2 (Nightcrawler must be BTS here, listening to Cyclops speech.) 
*GSX #1 p.15 panel 5-p.20 panel 2 
X:L #2-FB p.1 panel 1-p.2 panel 5 
GSX #1 p.20 panel 3-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
UX #94 
 


PHOENIX II 
 
CX #18/2 
*CX #27/2 
CX #17/2 
 


POLARIS 
 
CA #175 
GSX #1-FB p.16 panel 1-p.17 panel 6 
*GSX #1-FB-BTS p.29 panel 6 
GSX #1 p.20 panel 3-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
UX #94 
 


PROFESSOR X 
 
M/TU #23-BTS 
GSX #1-FB p.16 panel 1-p.17 panel 4 
DEF #15 
DEF #16 
X #2-FB p.16 panel 1 
*GSX #1-FB p.18 panel 8 
*CX #1 p.2 panels 1-2 
GSX #1-FB p.18 panel 9-p.19 panel 4 
CX #1 p.3 panel 4-p.4 panel 5 
GSX #1 p.4 panel 1-p.12 panel 1 
XCAL #107-FB p.8 panel 5 
GSX #1 p.12 panel 2-p.15 panel 2 
*CX #1 p.17 panel 1 
*GSX #1 p.15 panels 3-4 
*CX #1 p.17 panel 2 
*GSX #1-BTS p.15 panel 5-p.20 panel 2 (as Cyclops is still giving his speech, Prof. X must be off-panel, at least at the start of this scene.) 
X:L #2-FB p.1 panel 1-p.2 panel 5 
GSX #1 p.29 panel 1-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-32 
UX #94 
 


STORM 
 
PXX #4-FB 
{GSX #1} p.7 panel 4-p.15 panel 2 
*CX #1 p.17 panel 1 
*GSX #1-BTS p.15 panels 3-4 (Storm must be BTS here, listening to Cyclops speech.) 
*CX #1-BTS p.17 panel 2 (Storm must be BTS here, listening to Cyclops speech.) 
*GSX #1 p.15 panel 5-p.20 panel 2 
X:L #2-FB p.1 panel 1-p.2 panel 5 
GSX #1 p.20 panel 3-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
UX #94 
 


SUNFIRE 
 
IM #70 
GSX #1 p.9 panel 4-p.15 panel 2 
*CX #1 p.17 panel 1 
*GSX #1-BTS p.15 panels 3-4 (Sunfire must be BTS here, listening to Cyclops speech.) 
*CX #1-BTS p.17 panel 2 (Sunfire must be BTS here, listening to Cyclops speech.) 
*GSX #1 p.15 panel 5-p.20 panel 2 
X:L #2-FB p.1 panel 1-p.2 panel 5 
GSX #1 p.20 panel 3-p.36 panel 7 
UX #94 
 


THUNDERBIRD 
 
CX #3/2-FB 
{GSX #1} p.12 panel 2-p.15 panel 2 
*CX #1 p.17 panel 1 
*GSX #1-BTS p.15 panels 3-4 (Thunderbird must be BTS here, listening to Cyclops speech.) 
*CX #1-BTS p.17 panel 2 (Thunderbird is definitely BTS here, as Cyclops is addressing him directly.) 
*GSX #1 p.15 panel 5-p.20 panel 2 
X:L #2-FB p.1 panel 1-p.2 panel 5 
GSX #1 p.20 panel 3-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
UX #94 
 


WOLVERINE 
 
M/CP #51-FB 
GSX #1 pp.5-6 
AF #52-FB p.4 panels 2-5 
*GSX #1 p.14 panel 1-p.15 panel 2 
*CX #1 p.17 panel 1 
*GSX #1-BTS p.15 panels 3-4 (Wolverine must be BTS here, listening to Cyclops speech.) 
*CX #1-BTS p.17 panel 2 (Wolverine must be BTS here, listening to Cyclops speech.) 
GSX #1 p.15 panel 5-p.20 panel 2 
X:L #2-FB p.1 panel 1-p.2 panel 5 
*GSX #1 p.20 panel 3-p.28 panel 1 
*X:WA-FB p.15 
GSX #1 p.28 panel 2-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
(CX #27/2  should be moved from this spot) 
UX #94 
 
CX #18/2 
CX #27/2 (should be moved to this spot) 
CX #17/2 
 


The chronologies for Magik, as well as Colossus' parents (Nikolai Rasputin and Alexandra Rasputina), are unchanged  they already incorporate the XCAL #107-FB scene correctly. In addition, the chronologies of Guardian (AF #52-FB), Magneto (X#2-FB), and everyone in DEF #15-16 remain unchanged. 

-------- 

So, now that I've untangled this mess  stay tuned for my analysis of What If v2 #9, and what it ADDS to the mix 

-Jeph!

Last edited by jephyork on 26 Oct 2004 01:57 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 07:09 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Whoa, Jeph...I'm...speechless... Bravo.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 08:24 am    Post subject: Question
By Jason Doty

I know the original issue is always sited first when doing the chronologies, but in the case of a flashback, when we see something presented in regular time and not as a flashback, shouldn't that supersied the flashback? I'm basically talking about the part in CX where Cyclops runs in and says he's back.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Oct 2004 08:27 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

And THIS is exactly why it takes me so horribly long to do any chronology write-ups. Heck, I wrote five drafts alone of the section discussing the X:L #2 FB -- each longer than the last -- and all I was really saying was "leave it where it is"! Yeesh! 

And I'm *still* not done with What If v2 #9. Sigh. 

Still, thanks for the praise, Paul. 

-Jeph!

Last edited by jephyork on 26 Oct 2004 08:49 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 08:28 am    Post subject: I think there is a typo.
By Jason Doty

Under Cyclops, Phoenix, and Wolverine 

UX 110 
CX 27/2 
CX 17/2 (This is Mesmero capturing the X-Men) 
UX 111

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Oct 2004 08:29 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I know the original issue is always sited first when doing the chronologies, but in the case of a flashback, when we see something presented in regular time and not as a flashback, shouldn't that supersied the flashback? 
<<<

Good question, but no. Like you said -- the *first* time a scene appears wins out over any subsequent showings of that scene -- even if the first time it was a flashback, and the second time it was in real time. 

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I think there is a typo 
Under Cyclops, Phoenix, and Wolverine 
UX 110 
CX 27/2 
CX 17/2 (This is Mesmero capturing the X-Men) 
UX 111 
<<<

I wouldn't call it a typo -- but, mea culpa -- you're right. That's what I get for idly tossing CX #27/2 into a gap without actually *looking* where I'm tossing it. I'll just edit that, and place CX #27/2 *before* CX #17/2. 

(BTW, I edited your two almost identical posts on the subject down into one.) 

I'm at work now, and don't have the books -- so I'm still firing blind. Does anyone see anything wrong with placing it just before CX #17/2 -- just after CX #18/2 for Wolvie and Phoenix II, and after GR2 #34 for Cyclops? 

EDIT: Let's continue the discussion of CX #27/2 here. 

-Jeph!

Last edited by jephyork on 26 Oct 2004 08:42 am; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 09:31 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
I know the original issue is always sited first when doing the chronologies, but in the case of a flashback, when we see something presented in regular time and not as a flashback, shouldn't that supersied the flashback? 
<<<

No, the policy is that the original version of a scene always remains on the MCP, no matter how much it's elaborated on by later versions. (So if you have a one panel flashback to something, and it's later elaborated at greater length, the original flashback will still be listed, taking place halfway through the longer one.) 

At best, if the new flashback shows the same events in a way which reveals more information, it would be listed as taking place concurrently.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 09:44 am    Post subject: Redirected here
By Jason Doty

I have no objection to keeping things in the publication order, if it works, but once again I placed it as early as possible, because of the "getting to know you " feel of the story that we discussed earlier. I understand that my notes were very vague, in my other post. I also appreiciate that people don't like going against the official indexes. After researching issue by issue I only noticed a couple of glitches. 27/2, The Havok and Polaris story, and the Wolverine vs. the hunter one. 

Also, If a comic falls between another comic could we list it with a side note saying between what pages of the comic it comes between. This would help us all when trying to figure out or correct the individule chronologies.

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 12:26 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Also, If a comic falls between another comic could we list it with a side note saying between what pages of the comic it comes between. This would help us all when trying to figure out or correct the individule chronologies. 
<<<


I agree, but understand that this would be a huge undertaking. I would seriously prefer that we take a structured approach to it, rather than scattershot additions as we find them. Perhaps completely fleshing out the A page, before moving on the the B page, and so on. 


watching: both sides

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 12:51 pm    Post subject: reply to huge undertaking
By Jason Doty

I know their are many cases, but shouldn't we start with series like CX and Untold Tales of Spider-Man. That were written later and trully meant to be in the chronologies. After we took care of these series it would be just a mater of scanning from A to Z. Other series would include Marvels, Code of Honor, Daredevil: Yellow, Hulk: Grey, and ect.. The top to series had long runs and that would leave the mini series then we scan. What do you think?

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 01:08 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I agree that alphabetically is the way to go. It's the best way to ensure that we don't miss anything. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 09:38 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

A worthwhile endeavor indeed, but...do we have any volunteers?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 09:46 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Why does that sound like we're taking volunteers for a suicide mission? 

"Yes, you would be sacrificing your life, but it's for the greater good of the cause!" 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 10:33 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
A worthwhile endeavor indeed, but...do we have any volunteers? 
<<<


That's usually the person who made the original suggestion. 

Thanks, Jason, for taking on this massive project. You're a real trooper.  


watching: boston v. st louis

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Thread 52

Posted: 26 Oct 2004 11:22 pm    Post subject: Red Lucy Keough
By SeanCurtin

Red Lucy Keough isn't the same character as the Scarlet Witch. Lucy is Wanda's ancestor (on which side of the family it's not stated); Wanda's time-displaced spirit briefly inhabited Lucy's body. 

-Sean

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Thread 53

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 12:12 am    Post subject: Hulk Annual #15
By captamr

Hulk Annual #15 needs to be changed as the events here occur much earlier than between H2 329 and H2 330 as currently noted. The annual opens with Bruce pondering yet another attempt to separate the Hulk persona (this time the Grey one) from himself using the Doc Samson nutrient bath made popular in H2 324. Betty Banner and Rick Jones are also present and seek to aid the endeavor. However, there is no mention or attitude that the cure would also be useful for Ricks Hulk also who starts making appearances in H2 325. The Annuals events must take place before Rick realizes that he shares the same affliction. This necessitates changing Betty and Ricks listings also. Shield agent, Clay Quartermain, is also a regular cast member during this run so the listing change affects him also. There is ample time from the origin of the gray Hulk in H2 324 to the first appearance of the Rick Hulk at the end of H2 325 where all the characters have access to Gamma Base as shown in the annual. 

HULK 

H2 324 
*H@ 15 (moved from between H2 329 and H2 330) 
H2 325 

Tyrannus and the Abomination also make appearances. There is a FB showing the merger of the two separated by events in SW2 7 for the Abomination. The FB is missing for Tyrannus and should be included without the Secret Wars notation. This should read: 

TYRANNUS 
H2 243 
*H@ 15  FB (as a cobalt cloud, pg.19 by my count) 
H@ 15
_________________
Charlie

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Thread 54

Posted: 26 Oct 2004 05:10 am    Post subject: Annuals in General, Oh and MCP Too
By whoisthedoctor

The single hardest thing I ever find to stick into chronologies are old Annuals. They never have a publication "month" in the publisher's info, so I'm always stuck trying to figre out which month they actually came out. I usually end up trying to piece it together between ads in other comics and just generally where I think they would "fit" chronology-wise. (Which actually probably isn't that helpful, since the annuals didn't always fit particularly well with the comics that came out the same month.) Add to this that the months things come out are frequently severtal months out from the "cover months" of books and I find figuring out what months annuals were actually published, extremely difficult. 

Does anyone know if there's a listying somewhere of the actual publication months of Marvel's annuals? 

In a related vein, the Marvel Comics Presents series stopped bothering to list its publication month a bit into it's run as well, does anyone have a decent listing of when those actually came out? 

--Tom 

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 02:14 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

I have a list that I have compiled from Marvel's listings in the comics themselves, and their various news publications like Marvel Age Magazine from the 1980's. I can try to put it together in a usable form, perhaps a comma seperated file. 

I could do the same for Marvel Comics Presents. 
But probably not until this weekend.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 03:34 pm    
By whoisthedoctor

That would be much appreciated, thanks. 

--Tom

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 01:30 am    
By Peter Fabricius

I'll get it done as soon as I can.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 02:13 am    
By Peter Fabricius

Okay, that took all of 2 minutes, so I'll just try to paste it in here. 

Marvel Annuals 1960's 

---------- 

"Title",1962,1963,1964,1965,1966,1967,1968,1969 
"Strange Tales Annual","1/","2/",,,,,, 
"Fantastic Four Annual",,"1/","2/","3/","4/Nov 66","5/Nov 67","6/Nov 68","7/Nov 69" 
"Amazing Spider-Man Annual",,,"1/","2/","3/Nov 66","4/Nov67","5/Nov 68","6/Nov 69" 
"Marvel Tales Annual",,,"1/summer 64","2/summer 65",,,, 
"Journey Into Mystery Annual / The Mighty Thor Annual",,,,"1/","2/Sep 66",,, 
"Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandoes Annual",,,,"1/","2/","3/","4/","5/" 
"The Avengers Annual",,,,,,"1/Sep 67","2/Sep 68","3/Sep 69" 
"Daredevil Annual",,,,,,"1/Sep 67",, 
"The Incredible Hulk Annual",,,,,,,"1/Oct 68","2/Oct 69" 
"Marvel Super Heroes Annual (#1 only)",,,,,,,, 
"Marvel Triple Action Annual (#1-3) (?)",,,,,,,, 

------ 

Copy the above to a file, and save it with a csv extension. Then you can open it in a spreadsheet, or whatever you want. 

This all comes from a big Excel file I made years ago, containing all the Marvel Universe comics I could find the cover dates for. 
It hasn't been updated with older comics for quite some time, and probably contains several errors, but I will send it to anyone who wants it.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 02:14 am    
By Peter Fabricius

And the next one. 

Marvel Annuals 1970's 

----- 

"Title",1970,1971,1972,1973,1974,1975,1976,1977,1978,1979 
"Fantastic Four Annual","8/Dec70","9/Dec 71",,"10/Mar-Apr 73?",,,"11/Jun 76","12/Feb 78","13/","14/" 
"Amazing Spider-Man Annual","7/Dec 70","8/Dec 71",,"9/Dec 72-Jan 73?",,,"10/Sep?76","11/Sep?77","12/Nov-Dec78","13/" 
"The Mighty Thor Annual","3/Jan 71","4/Dec 71",,,,,"5/","6/Oct?77","7/Nov 78","8/" 
"Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandoes Annual","6/","7/",,,,,,,, 
"The Avengers Annual","4/Jan 71","5/Jan 72",,,,,"6/","7/Nov?77","8/","9/" 
"Daredevil Annual","2/Feb 71","3/Jan 72",,,,,"4/Sep?76",,, 
"The Incredible Hulk Annual","3/Jan 71","4/Jan 72",,,,,"5/Sep?76","6/Nov77","7/","8/" 
"Marvel Super Heroes Annual (#1 only)",,,,,,,,,, 
"Marvel Triple Action Annual (#1-3) (?)",,,,,,,,,, 
"Iron Man Annual","1/Aug 70","2/Nov71",,,,,"3/Jun 76","4/Aug?77",, 
"The Uncanny X-Men Annual","1/Dec 70","2/Nov 71",,,,,,,,"3/Nov 79" 
"Captain America Annual","1/Jan 71","2/Jan 72",,,,,"3/Jul 76","4/Aug?77",, 
"Sub-Mariner Annual","1/Jan 71","2/Jan 72",,,,,,,, 
"Dracula Lives Annual",,,,,,"1/",,,, 
"Monsters Unleashed Annual",,,,,,"1/",,,, 
"Savage Tales Annual",,,,,,"1/",,,, 
"Tales of the Zombie Annual",,,,,,"1/",,,, 
"Vampire Tales Annual",,,,,,"1/",,,, 
"Doctor Strange Annual",,,,,,,"1/",,, 
"Luke Cage, Power Man Annual",,,,,,,"1/",,, 
"Marvel Team-Up Annual",,,,,,,"1/",,,"2/" 
"Marvel Two-In-One Annual",,,,,,,"1/Sep?76","2/Dec?77","3/","4/" 
"Master of Kung Fu Annual",,,,,,,"1/Jul 76",,, 
"Defenders Annual",,,,,,,"1/",,, 
"Eternals Annual",,,,,,,,"1/Oct 77",, 
"Howard the Duck Annual",,,,,,,,"1/Sep?77",, 
"Invaders Annual",,,,,,,,"1/Oct 77",, 
"Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man Annual",,,,,,,,,,"1/" 
"Micronauts Annual",,,,,,,,,,"1/" 

-----
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 02:15 am    
By Peter Fabricius

And one more 

Marvel Annuals 1980's 

----- 

"Title",1980,1981,1982,1983,1984,1985,1986,1987,1988,1989 
"Fantastic Four Annual","15/Oct 80","16/",,"17/Sep 83","18/Nov 84","19/Nov 85",,"20/Sep 87","21/Sep 88","22/Nov 89" 
"Amazing Spider-Man Annual","14/Dec 80","15/","16/Nov 82","17/Dec 83","18/Dec 84","19/Nov 85","20/Nov 86","21/Sep 87","22/Sep 88","23/Sep 89" 
"The Mighty Thor Annual",,"9/","10/Nov 82","11/Nov 83","12/Nov 84","13/Dec 85",,,,"14/Nov 89" 
"The Avengers Annual",,"10/","11/Dec 82","12/Jan 84","13/Nov 84","14/Nov 85","15/Oct 86","16/Oct 87","17/Nov 88","18/Oct 89" 
"Daredevil Annual",,,,,,,,,,"5/Sep 89" 
"The Incredible Hulk Annual","9/Sep 80","10/","11/Oct 82","12/Aug 83","13/Nov 84","14/Dec 85","15/Oct 86",,, 
"Iron Man Annual",,,"5/Dec 82","6/Nov 83","7/Oct 84",,"8/Oct 86","9/Dec 87",,"10/Aug 89" 
"The Uncanny X-Men Annual","4/Nov 80","5/Oct?81","6/Nov 82","7/Jan 84","8/Dec 84","9/Jan 86","10/Jan 87","11/Sep 87","12/Oct 88","13/Aug 89" 
"Captain America Annual",,,"6/Nov 82","7/Oct 83",,,"8/Sep 86",,, 
"Doctor Strange Annual",,,,,,,,,, 
"Marvel Team-Up Annual","3/Nov 80","4/","5/Nov 82","6/Oct 83","7/Oct 84",,,,, 
"Marvel Two-In-One Annual","5/Sep 80","6/","7/Oct 82",,,,,,, 
"Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man Annual / the Spectacular Spider-Man Annual","2/Aug 80","3/",,,"4/Nov 84","5/Oct 85","6/Oct 86","7/Nov 87","8/Nov 88","9/Sep 89" 
"Micronauts Annual","2/Oct 80",,,,,,,,, 
"Rom Annual",,,"1/Nov 82","2/Oct 83","3/Dec 84","4/Dec 85",,,, 
"The New Mutants Annual",,,,,"1/Jan 85",,"2/Oct 86","3/Oct 87","4/Sep 88","5/Oct 89" 
"Web of Spider-Man Annual",,,,,,"1/Sep 85","2/Sep 86","3/Oct 87","4/Oct 88","5/Oct 89" 
"Marvel Age Annual",,,,,,"1/Oct-Nov 85","2/Oct 86","3/Oct 87","4/Oct 88", 
"Alpha Flight Annual",,,,,,,"1/Sep 86","2/Dec 87",, 
"West Coast Annual / Avengers West Coast Annual",,,,,,,"1/Oct 86","2/Sep 87","3/Oct 88","4/Nov 89" 
"X-Factor Annual",,,,,,,"1/Oct 86","2/Oct 87","3/Aug 88","4/Oct 89" 
"Starbrand Annual",,,,,,,,"1/Oct 87",, 
"Psi Force Annual",,,,,,,,"1/Oct 87",, 
"Mark Hazzard : Merc Annual",,,,,,,,"1/Nov 87",, 
"D.P.7 Annual",,,,,,,,"1/Nov 87",, 
"Punisher Annual",,,,,,,,,"1/Aug 88","2/Sep 89" 
"Silver Surfer Annual",,,,,,,,,"1/Aug 88","2/Aug 89" 
"Wolverine Annual",,,,,,,,,,"1/Feb 90" 

-----
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 02:16 am    
By Peter Fabricius

And yet another. 

Marvel Annuals 1990's 

----- 

"Title",1990,1991,1992,1993,1994,1995,1996,1997,1998,1999 
"Fantastic Four Annual","23/Jul 90","24/Jun 91","25/Sep 92","26/Jun 93","27/Jun 94",,,,,"Nov 1999" 
"Amazing Spider-Man Annual","24/Aug 90","25/Aug 91","26/Aug 92","27/May 93","28/May 94",,"Oct 1996","Sep 1997",,"Jun 1999" 
"The Mighty Thor Annual","15/Sep 90","16/Jun 91","17/Sep 92","18/Aug 93","19/Aug 94",,,,,"Mar 1999" 
"The Avengers Annual","19/Oct 90","20/Sep 91","21/Sep 92","22/May 93","23/Jul 94",,,,,"Jul 1999" 
"Daredevil Annual","6/Jun 90","7/Jun 91","8/Jul 92","9/Jul 93","10/May 94",,,,, 
"The Incredible Hulk Annual","16/Jun 90","17/Sep 91","18/May 92","19/Aug 93","20/Aug 94",,,"May 1997",,"Oct 1999" 
"Iron Man Annual","11/Sep 90","12/Sep 91","13/Aug 92","14/Aug 93","15/Jul 94",,,,,"Aug 1999" 
"The Uncanny X-Men Annual","14/Jul 90","15/Aug 91","16/May 92","17/Jun 93","18/Jun 94","Nov 1995","Sep 1996","Oct 1997",,"Feb 2000" 
"Captain America Annual","9/Sep 90","10/Jun 91","11/Sep 92","12/May 93","13/May 94",,,,,"Oct 1999" 
"Doctor Strange Annual",,,"2/Jun 92","3/Jun 93","4/Jun94",,,,, 
"the Spectacular Spider-Man Annual","10/Aug 90","11/Aug 91","12/Aug 92","13/Sep 93","14/Sep 94",,,,, 
"The New Mutants Annual","6/Jul 90","7/Jul 91",,,,,,,, 
"Web of Spider-Man Annual","6/Aug 90","7/Sep 91","8/Aug 92","9/Jun 93","10/Jun 94",,,,, 
"Avengers West Coast Annual","5/Sep 90","6/Oct 91","7/Aug 92","8/Sep 93",,,,,, 
"X-Factor Annual","5/Jul 90","6/Aug 91","7/May 92","8/May 93","9/May 94",,,,, 
"Punisher Annual","3/Jun 90","4/Jun 91","5/Jun 92","6/Oct 93","7/Oct 94",,,,, 
"Silver Surfer Annual","3/Jun 90","4/Jul 91","5/Jun 92","6/Oct 93","7/Oct 94",,,"Jul 1997",, 
"Wolverine Annual","2/Dec 90","3/Nov 91",,,,"Sep 1995","Oct 1996","Jan 1998",,"Dec 1999" 
"Guardians of the Galaxy Annual",,"1/Jul 91","2/Jul 92","3/Aug 93","4/Aug 94",,,,, 
"New Warriors Annual",,"1/Jul 91","2/Sep 92","3/May 93","4/May 94",,,,, 
"Namor the Sub-Mariner Annual",,"1/Sep 91","2/Jun 92","3/Jul 93","4/Jul 94",,,,, 
"X-Men Annual",,,"1/May 92","2/Oct 93","3/Oct 94","Oct 1995","Nov 1996","May 1997",,"Aug 1999" 
"X-Force Annual",,,"1/May 92","2/Oct 93","3/Oct 94",,,,,"Nov 1999" 
"Wonder Man Annual",,,"1/Jul 92","2/Jul 93",,,,,, 
"Darkhawk Annual",,,"1/Jul 92","2/Jul 93","(3/Jul 94)",,,,, 
"Deathlok Annual",,,"1/Aug 92","2/Oct 93",,,,,, 
"Punisher War Zone Annual",,,,"1/Aug 93","2/Aug 94",,,,, 
"Excalibur Annual",,,,"1/Sep 93","2/Sep 94",,,,, 
"Ghost Rider Annual",,,,"1/Sep 93","2/Sep 94",,,,, 
"Spider-Man 2099 Annual",,,,,"1/Sep 94",,,,, 
"Generation X Annual",,,,,,"Nov 1995","Nov 1996","Oct 1997",,"Dec 1999" 
"X-Force / Cable Annual",,,,,,"Dec 1995","Oct 1996","Jun 1997",, 
"Sensational Spider-Man Annual",,,,,,,"Nov 1996",,, 
"Untold Tales of Spider-Man Annual",,,,,,,"Dec 1996","Jul 1997",, 
"X-Man Annual",,,,,,,"Jan 1997","Feb 1998",, 
"Peter Parker, Spider-Man Annual",,,,,,,,"Mar 1997",,"Aug 1999" 
"Thunderbolts Annual",,,,,,,,"Aug 1997",, 
"Daredevil / Deadpool Annual",,,,,,,,"Sep 1997",, 
"Ka-Zar Annual",,,,,,,,"Nov 1997",, 
"Cable / Machine Man Annual",,,,,,,,,"May 1998", 
"Machine Man / Bastion Annual",,,,,,,,,"Jun 1998", 
"X-Men / Doctor Doom Annual",,,,,,,,,"Jun 1998", 
"Deadpool / Death Annual",,,,,,,,,"Jul 1998", 
"The Amazing Spider-Man / Devil Dinosaur Annual",,,,,,,,,"Jul 1998", 
"The Incredible Hulk / Sub-Mariner Annual",,,,,,,,,"Aug 1998", 
"Silver Surfer / Thor Annual",,,,,,,,,"Aug 1998", 
"X-Man / The Incredible Hulk Annual",,,,,,,,,"Aug 1998", 
"The Uncanny X-Men / Fantastic Four Annual",,,,,,,,,"Sep 1998", 
"Avengers / Squadron Supreme Annual",,,,,,,,,"Sep 1998", 
"Peter Parker, Spider-Man / Elektra Annual",,,,,,,,,"Oct 1998", 
"Heroes for Hire / Quicksilver Annual",,,,,,,,,"Oct 1998", 
"Alpha Flight / Inhumans Annual",,,,,,,,,"Nov 1998", 
"X-Force / Champions Annual",,,,,,,,,"Dec 1998", 
"Generation X / Dracula Annual",,,,,,,,,"Dec 1998", 
"Captain America / Citizen V Annual",,,,,,,,,"Jan 1999", 
"Iron Man / Captain America Annual",,,,,,,,,"Jan 1999", 
"Fantastic Four / Fantastic Four Annual",,,,,,,,,"Feb 1999", 
"Cable Annual",,,,,,,,,,"Apr 1999" 
"Mutant X Annual",,,,,,,,,,"May 1999" 
"Gambit Annual",,,,,,,,,,"Sep 1999" 
"Spider-Girl Annual",,,,,,,,,,"Sep 1999" 

-----
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 02:18 am    
By Peter Fabricius

And finally. 

Marvel Annuals 2000's 

----- 

"Title",2000,2001,2002,2003,2004,2005,2006,2007,2008,2009 
"Fantastic Four Annual","Aug 2000","Sep 2001",,,,,,,, 
"Amazing Spider-Man Annual","May 2000","May 2001",,,,,,,, 
"The Mighty Thor Annual","Mar 2000","Mar 2001",,,,,,,, 
"The Avengers Annual","Jul 2000","Sep 2001",,,,,,,, 
"The Incredible Hulk Annual","Nov 2000","Nov 2001",,,,,,,, 
"Iron Man Annual","Oct 2000","Oct 2001",,,,,,,, 
"The Uncanny X-Men Annual","Feb 2001","Feb 2002",,,,,,,, 
"Captain America Annual","Nov 2000","Nov 2001",,,,,,,, 
"Wolverine Annual","Jan 2001","Jan 2002",,,,,,,, 
"X-Men Annual","Sep 2000","Sep 2001",,,,,,,, 
"Peter Parker, Spider-Man Annual","Dec 2000","Jan 2002",,,,,,,, 
"Thunderbolts Annual","May 2000",,,,,,,,, 
"Mutant X","Apr 2000","May 2001",,,,,,,, 
"Gambit Annual","Oct 2000",,,,,,,,, 
"X-Treme X-Men Annual",,"Feb 2002",,,,,,,, 

-----
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Thread 55

Posted: 05 Sep 2004 09:14 pm    Post subject: Daredevil in Relation to the Calender Project
By PopularLoser

To Paul Bourcier: 

What year do you have Matt Murdock as Daredevil first appearing? And for that matter, when do you have Matt Murdock's origin (truck w/ toxic chemicals hitting him) occuring? 

On a slightly related note, are you going to eventually calenderize (sorry, made that word up  ) pre-Fantastic Four #1?
_________________
<Insert Signature Here>

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Posted: 05 Sep 2004 10:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I have DD 1 in February of Year 4. I have Matt and Foggy graduating from law school in late May of Year 2, nearly two months after Ben Parker's death. 

No plans to go back beyond FF 1. Heck, it's going to take me forever to get back to that point. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 05 Sep 2004 11:27 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

You know that, according to Alias #22, Spider-Man and Daredevil's origins occur on the same day, right?  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Sep 2004 09:25 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Seriously?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 Sep 2004 09:32 am    
By rhod

Exactly which days of each's origins? I mean do you consider the day of origin of spidey to be the day he got bitten, the first time he wore the costume, or the day the burglar killed Uncle Ben?

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Posted: 06 Sep 2004 10:03 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Jessica is present at the science expo where Peter is bitten. As she leaves, she is almost hit by a crazily-driving truck conatining radioactive material. 

To be fair -- it wasn't *necessarily* the same truck that spilled radioactive material on Matt Murdock. Nothing explicitly tells us that it is -- we don't see Matt at all -- but it's supposed to be the same truck. The joke is, Jessica is having near-misses with everyone else's origin. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Sep 2004 11:31 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

It is a joke. Matt was hit by that truck years before, when he was a kid!
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 Sep 2004 09:07 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Sigh. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 Oct 2004 11:29 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

We have a bigger problem with that origin story. In Alias #22, Jessica is definitely hanging around when Peter Parker is bitten. Later, she awakens from her coma to watch the Silver Surfer and the Fantastic Four battling Galactus. Then she is adopted. 

In Alias #23, she returns to Midtown High, and encounters Flash (who is running for Class President) and Peter. 

Is anyone prepared to say that Peter graduates from high school (in, I believe ASM 28) *after* Galactus attacks (in FF 50)? 

........ Come to think of it, didn't we have this discussion on the old posting board? And didn't I say at the time that it was no big deal? hmph. 

watching: angel

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Posted: 24 Oct 2004 09:50 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Sounds vaguely familiar. And no, I'm not ready to accept Jessica's origin as a canonical story. I'm thinking -- implanted memories.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 10:30 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Well, we COULD consider it canon...if we either somehow discount the Galactus scene, or if we just ditch the reference to it being Midtown High, and say it's actually the college that Peter attended in which the scene takes place...yes, far fetched, but it's the best I can come up with... 

You know, reading over Alias, I've come to the conclusion that Bendis's thoughts on continuity match the words of his villian the Purple Man in Alias #27, (in which I think Bendis is poking fun and taking a swipe at us the readers): 

Purple Man: "Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!" 

I swear, he had us in mind...Bendis burgers anyone? 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 12:24 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I don't think anyone here is considering it non-canon, although the idea may have been brought up on the old posting board. 

I don't know how to discount the Galactus scene. The story is not a flashback, so we can't chalk it up to faulty memory. If it was some hallucination or dream as she awakens from the coma, that would mean Jessica is somehow prescient, something that hasn't even been hinted yet. 

We could *say* it's Empire State University, but that's not what the *story* says, so what we say is meaningless. Any theories on why Peter and Flash would both be visiting Midtown High, after their graduation? (Flash's banner campaigning for class president could at least be explained as a joke perpetrated by other students, on the basis that they didn't believe that Flash's grades would have allowed him to graduate the previous year.) 


watching: lippy the lion and hardy har har

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 10:34 am    
By John Simons

Well, I half agree with you about this. I certainly don't think Bendis subscribes to the "don't contradict the continuity" part; I think his thoughts on continuity can more accurately be summed up as "continuity, shmontinuity, I just wanna tell a good story." 

The reason I've been using the above quote as my sig lately is because I do think it's a direct meta-commentary about guys like us who obsess about this stuff. 

As for the Galactus thing, any chance we can write off the Big G's appearence as an "artist error" and assume it's some other 3-story-tall menace the heroes are fighting, like Fin Fang Foom or something?
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 11:23 am 
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Which would you rather write off as an art error: the school (making it ESU instead of Midtown High), or Galactus and the Silver Surfer (oops, they're some OTHER menacing creature)? 

Personally, if we're going to go the "art error" route, I'd vote for making the school the art error. It seems the lesser of two evils. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 12:26 pm    
By rhod

Can someone explain why Peter can't still be at school when Galactus first arrives? I've never read the original FF story, but surely it occurs early enough that it wouldn't require much deviation from publication order.

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 09:32 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

To make this work would require contradicting the sequence of events as laid out in the Marvel Saga and the Official Marvel Indexes. The scene at Midtown High would have to occur sometime before Peter's graduation in ASM 28, which occurs before Spidey's appearance at Reed's and Sue's wedding in FF@ 3, which in turn occurs before FF 44. Galactus and the Surfer don't appear until FF 48. 

The question -- especially given that only one month (Marvel time) separates Peter's June graduation and the coming of Galactus in July -- is whether we want to undo what's been established by the Saga and the Indexes to accommodate this flashback.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 10:27 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Yes, Paul, you've succinctly stated the question. Allow me to ask a radical question. 

It seems to me that there are two basic methods that Marvel might have used in determining story order. One is that the stories require it. The other is that they had to choose one story taking place before the other, and (more or less arbitrarily) made a decision. 

In the case of the former, we have a minor dilemma. In the case of the latter, I believe Marvel was perfectly willing to change these placements in subsequent volumes of the indexes, if newly published stories required that change. 

The crux of the question is, can we justify that the placement from Marvel Saga/Index is required, based on the stories themselves, or, as long as Alias doesn't contradict the stories (as opposed to Saga/Index), can we justify "tweaking" things a bit? 


watching: boston v. st louis

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 04:19 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Personally, I trust the findings of this group more than what was printed in the Marvel Saga and the Indexes. They're both useful tools, but they're also badly out of date, and it's not like errors haven't been found in them before. My preference in chronology matters is to place things according to the story, and bugger whatever the Indexes say. In other words, tweak away!
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 07:11 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

One thing that pops into my head about tweaking this... We'd have to change Reed's and Sue's wedding from the "late June" setting cited by the Official Marvel Index to the FF #3 to sometime prior to Peter's high school graduation. This would change the date of subsequent wedding anniversaries, including, most recently, that shown in FF3 50/4. Not necessarily a big problem, just one of the many things of which we should be mindful. 

We might be able to move FF@ 3 and FF 44-49 (plus the beginning of FF 50; there's a gap in FF 50 -- Johnny enrolls a Metro College at the end of that issue) to early June. I think the Index also notes FF 38-43 as occurring in June. So we could compress all these issues of FF into a short period of time; do temporal references in the comics allow it? Or we could move FF 38-43 back to May. There are some options here. 

Also, to get that flashback in ALIAS 22 (a comic which, unfortunately, I don't have) as close to the end of the school year as possible (to minimize disruptions), we'd have to explain why there's a class president campaign banner present. Class elections would have to have occurred the previous fall. Possible explanation: Flash's friends found the old banner and tacked it up as part of their celebration of the end of school.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 07:57 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

If memory serves (and I'd have to go back and check the books more carefully to be sure) those issues run through as a fairly quick narrative with each issue starting where the previous one left off. I want to say, though, that #50 does contain a number of references to the start of Fall term, along with everyone wearing coats and the trees being without leaves. 

I'll try to check on that when I get a chance.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 08:48 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I think Nathan Mahney's post sums up my feelings on the Indexes and Sagas as well. They're useful guideposts, but we shouldn't feel 100% BOUND by them. 

I don't think there's a single person here that takes excessive *liberties* with continuity -- we all respect the material. With that in mind, how can we NOT make the atempt to reconcile things that almost-but-don't-quite-work, like this Alias scene? 

Tweak away! 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 01:56 pm    
By John Simons

Let me jump in here with a few points: 

First off, how old and in what year or high school was Peter Parker when he got his powers? I have it in my head that it was his sophomore year, but I'm not sure where that factoid came from, and I'm sure I've adequately proven in previous posts how unreliable my memory is when is comes to these sort of little details. 

Anyway, the reason I ask is because the FB which opens ALIAS 22, which occurs on the same day Peter is bitten by that durn spider, takes place, according to the caption "fifteen years ago", whereas Jessica's return to school, shown in the FB at the beginning of ALIAS 23 takes place "fourteen years ago" You could quibble about how long ago it actually was based on what timeline you go by, but clearly Bendis' intent was that it was a year later. 

So if Peter was a sophomore in the first FB, it's only his (and Johnny's; they're the same age, right?) junior year, not senior, when Jessica comes back. 

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Also, to get that flashback in ALIAS 22 (a comic which, unfortunately, I don't have) as close to the end of the school year as possible (to minimize disruptions), we'd have to explain why there's a class president campaign banner present. Class elections would have to have occurred the previous fall. Possible explanation: Flash's friends found the old banner and tacked it up as part of their celebration of the end of school. 
>>>


Well, there are other considerations. I can think of two big ones: 

1) Why in the world would Jessica's foster parents put her back into school close to the end of the school year? Obviously she would be unprepared to take any finals and would have to repeat the grade, anyway. What would be the point? 

2) Aside from the election banner, you also have the football team practicing. Why would they be doing that in May or June? Preparing waaayyy in advance for the following fall's season? 

I'm gonna stick by my guns and say the necessary solution is to toss the Galactus/Surfer panel and assume some different, earlier, Manhattan-shaking event. 

BTW I agree with the idea that the Indexes/Handbooks should not be considered the be-all and end-all of all continuity discussions. However, my reading of the comics themselves is that Bendis is trying to cram a square peg into a round hole and it isn't going to work.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 05:13 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Anyway, the reason I ask is because the FB which opens ALIAS 22, which occurs on the same day Peter is bitten by that durn spider, takes place, according to the caption "fifteen years ago", whereas Jessica's return to school, shown in the FB at the beginning of ALIAS 23 takes place "fourteen years ago" You could quibble about how long ago it actually was based on what timeline you go by, but clearly Bendis' intent was that it was a year later. 

So if Peter was a sophomore in the first FB, it's only his (and Johnny's; they're the same age, right?) junior year, not senior, when Jessica comes back. 
<<<


References in narration are among the first things that I'd toss out, if they didn't work. Paul B's likely response here is that "fifteen years ago" could mean "fifteen years and eleven months", while "fourteen years ago" could mean, well, "fourteen years," giving you an effective 23-month difference between the two scenes. 


John Simons wrote: 
>>>
1) Why in the world would Jessica's foster parents put her back into school close to the end of the school year? Obviously she would be unprepared to take any finals and would have to repeat the grade, anyway. What would be the point? 
<<<

Well, we don't know why, only that they did. And that only becomes an issue if you're trying to place it on a calendar, rather than just reading the books. The calendar must bow to what's in the books. 


John Simons wrote: 
>>>
2) Aside from the election banner, you also have the football team practicing. Why would they be doing that in May or June? Preparing waaayyy in advance for the following fall's season? 
<<<

Yes, exactly. Most high schools in my area have spring training in April or May. My theory on the election banner: For the last couple of months, Flash's friends have been teasing him that his grades aren't good enough to graduate. So as a prank, they put up last fall's election banner, hoping to help Flash get a head start on running for senior class officer again next fall. 

But again, these are just topical references that must fall by the wayside, if necessary. 


John Simons wrote: 
>>>
I'm gonna stick by my guns and say the necessary solution is to toss the Galactus/Surfer panel and assume some different, earlier, Manhattan-shaking event. 
<<<

But you're asking us to toss out an on-panel appearance by Galactus, the Silver Surfer and the Fantastic Four, in favor of getting things to line up with a calendar that no one at Marvel is trying to follow. It sounds like you're contending that the appearances of nameless football players and background decorations are more important than the appearances of Galactus and Silver Surfer. 


watching: charmed

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 09:11 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Paul B's likely response here is that "fifteen years ago" could mean "fifteen years and eleven months", while "fourteen years ago" could mean, well, "fourteen years," giving you an effective 23-month difference between the two scenes.  
<<<

Except that more than 24 months separate the birth of Spidey and the graduation of Peter Parker. But I'd argue that "fourteen" and "fifteen" aren't accurate anyway. 


Quote: 
>>>
Well, we don't know why, only that they did. And that only becomes an issue if you're trying to place it on a calendar, rather than just reading the books. The calendar must bow to what's in the books. 
<<<

Yup. (Did I say that?) We can make up a reason for Jessica to be back at school -- to sign up for a make-up summer semester? 


Quote: 
>>>
Most high schools in my area have spring training in April or May. 
<<<

Good point. And the team is just practicing, not playing a game against a rival team, right? 


Quote: 
>>>
So as a prank, they put up last fall's election banner, hoping to help Flash get a head start on running for senior class officer again next fall.  
<<<

Please excuse my ignorance of early Spidey plot lines and my laziness for not scouring the Marvel Index for an answer -- but did Flash run for class president in any issues of ASM? 


Quote: 
>>>
But you're asking us to toss out an on-panel appearance by Galactus, the Silver Surfer and the Fantastic Four, in favor of getting things to line up with a calendar that no one at Marvel is trying to follow. It sounds like you're contending that the appearances of nameless football players and background decorations are more important than the appearances of Galactus and Silver Surfer.  
<<<

I have to agree with Russ on this. Accommodating the appearance of Galactus and the Surfer is of prime importance if this is indeed a canonical flashback and not some weird false memory or something. And I think we can explain temporal references in a way that makes sense. 

It sounds like a shifting back of a few weeks (and perhaps a slight compression) for FF@ 3, FF 38-49, and the start of FF 50 is not only doable but warranted, given this new piece of "evidence" that the compilers of the Saga and Index did not have at their disposal. One thing that would help are references that give us a sense of the passage of time between story arcs in these FF issues. I'm still digging out, but I might be able to suggest some slight shuffling in MCP listings to reflect this calendar adjustment. 

And if the consensus is to move FF@ 3, I'll move FF3 50/4 back accordingly on the current calendar.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 09:20 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Please excuse my ignorance of early Spidey plot lines and my laziness for not scouring the Marvel Index for an answer -- but did Flash run for class president in any issues of ASM? 
<<<

None, that I know of. But there's no evidence that he didn't. And the banner in ALIAS is evidence that he did, at some point in time. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I have to agree with Russ on this. Accommodating the appearance of Galactus and the Surfer is of prime importance if this is indeed a canonical flashback and not some weird false memory or something. And I think we can explain temporal references in a way that makes sense. 
<<<

I don't see any evidence that Jessica's origin in ALIAS is a flashback. Unless I'm mistaken, it's simply a story told out of order. Which doesn't allow us to play the "faulty memory" card. 


watching: boston v. st louis

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 02:57 pm    Post subject: Memories
By rhod

Just to drift off the point slightly, have we ever discarded a flashback as being misremembered? I ask because I personally have difficulty remembering exactly what order events happened to me 15 years ago, and given that Jessica is surely suffering mental stress as a result of her mutant ever-lasting pregnancy  can her memory be relied upon? 
(Me and my girlfriend have had 2 kids in the last 18 months so I know very well how absent-minded pregnant women get  )

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 05:08 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

rhod wrote: 
>>>
Just to drift off the point slightly, have we ever discarded a flashback as being misremembered? 
<<<

If memory serves, Spider-Man had a flashback to his origin that incorporated Doctor Octopus (probably intended to verify that Chapter One was canon), and we chalked that up to a faulty memory. 


rhod wrote: 
>>>
given that Jessica is surely suffering mental stress as a result of her mutant ever-lasting pregnancy  can her memory be relied upon? 
<<<

We're not relying upon her memory. I don't think this is a flashback. In any case, she had no stress from the pregnancy, as she had no idea she was pregnant. 


watching: charmed

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Thread 56

Posted: 28 Oct 2004 10:12 am    Post subject: Silver Surfer
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Well, the final issue is out, and guess what? It's the cosmic reset button. Entire run cancels itself out. Ends with a scene of various supporting characters going about their business from issue #1 in a different way, with no recollection of anything happening. 

Since the entire story is self-cancelling, and features no other Marvel Universe characters, it can fit in absolutely anywhere. The one vaguely relevant scene in issue #14 is a flashback to the origin of Marduk (which discredits what we were told about it earlier in the run - apparently, it's just a projection of mankind's self-loathing!). 

Does anyone really want an issue analysis of the second storyline? Be warned that it would simply feature alternate-reality versions of supporting characters unlikely ever to reappear, and a summary of a godawful pretentious plot about why we should all love one another more...!
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 11:50 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

So you're saying that this series is different from THE END in that the "cosmic reset button" actually throws this whole series into non-canonical status? In other words, the series is cast into oblivion or some alternate reality, as opposed to THE END, which, for the characters involved, actually occurred?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 12:22 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

I can only speculate on what exactly is meant to be happening in issue #14. Basically, the autistic girl turns out to be cosmically significant in some way, and chooses to defeat Marduk through the power of hope. Big flash of light, and we immediately go back to issue #1 in New Orleans, except everyone is happier, and it's not raining any more. (Seriously.) No time travel is involved; as near as I can decipher, Ellie seems to be exercising some kind of cosmic fiat to rewrite reality. 

Frankly, the entire thing is sub-Vertigo drivel, and it's one of the most pretentious comics I've ever slogged through. It's full of self-important bombastic tripe and makes very little sense. ("Holy, holy, holy is the Dream. Holy, holy, holy is the Dreamer." The book continues in much the same vein for most of its length.) It amounts to little more than a tree-hugging exercise in telling the audience to love one another more, dressed up as some kind of philosophical insight. 

The closest it ever really comes to explaining what's happening is a passage in which we're told that "To defeat Marduk, man's consciousness had to die and be reborn." Apparently Ellie is somehow essential to this, although quite how anything she does in this issue relates to man's consciousness is thoroughly oblique. 

It is, in short, borderline incomprehensible - save to the extent that Marduk is clearly defeated and the reset button is hit, with the only lasting effects being that Ellis is slightly more peaceful (but still autistic) and her mother mentions vaguely remembering an extremely vague dream which very loosely reflects the themes of the last 14 issues.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 03:54 pm 
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

It seems that this entire series -- except for what, if anything, precedes the reset in issue #1 and what follows the reset in issue #14 -- should not appear on a calendar. From what you describe it's an alternate future, not the mainstream MU. However, should we include this entire series in the Surfer's chronology in the MCP? Can we say that the Surfer of the mainstream MU spent perhaps months of his life in an alternate future, all in a blink of an eye? Does this experience actually "count" for the Surfer?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 05:09 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

That is certainly a valid reading of the story. On that approach, only the Surfer's appearance in the final panel of issue #14 would be canonical (a generic shot of him flying through space). 

In any event, since he's hanging around Earth in this series, and flying through space at the end, I'd suggest placing the whole series between the Surfer's cameo appearance in X-Statix #26 (he was one of the guests at their farewell party) and his recent appearance in She-Hulk #8 (where he's off on an alien world).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 05:22 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
That is certainly a valid reading of the story. On that approach, only the Surfer's appearance in the final panel of issue #14 would be canonical (a generic shot of him flying through space).  
<<<

Okay. Unless anyone objects, the last panel of issue #14 (XpY citation please?) will be the only content from this series that appears in the calendar. (Nothing from issue #1 before the reset point?) 

Quote: 
>>>
I'd suggest placing the whole series between the Surfer's cameo appearance in X-Statix #26 (he was one of the guests at their farewell party) and his recent appearance in She-Hulk #8 (where he's off on an alien world). 
<<<


And I'll place it between XS 26 and S-H3 8. Thanks, Paul.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 05:41 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

That would be page 21, a splash page. Pages 17 to 20 are also in the mainstream MU, but only feature supporting characters who are specific to this series (and, in the revised continuity, have never met the Silver Surfer, or done anything of significance). 

The only other canonical material is a gripping flashback to some people sitting around a campfire in Ancient Sumeria, inventing religion. I think we can safely disregard it.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 06:52 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Ah, but if they're named, they're eligible for listing in the MCP. Unless I hear objections, I'll assume I can delete all references to SS4 from the calendar with the exception of SS4 14 (17-21). Paul, would you provide a one- or two-sentence description of what's going on in pages 17-20? We have the Surfer flying through space on page 21.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 57

Posted: 28 Oct 2004 08:27 pm    Post subject: Dervish in X-Treme X-Men
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm sifting through the tail end of X-Treme X-Men for this week's update, and, um....am I going crazy, or did Chris Claremont, write two totally unrelated characters named Dervish, running through these books at the same time? 

The first Dervish is one of a group of beach-bum mutants that attacked and killed Marie D'Ancanto's family in XX 31-35 (and prior to that, in a minor role in XXX). 

This story is immediately followed by The Arena in XX 36-39, and has a different Dervish as one of the "gladiators" that Storm is forced to fight. 

And if I'm not mistaken, Dervish the First returns in the *next* arc, where the X-Men take out Elias Bogan. 

Couldn't one of these be named Tumbleweed, or something? Is there really a need for two Dervishes, at the same time? I mean, I could understand if two were published in different books, or if the two of them had some connection, but this is the same writer. Was Claremont unable to keep up with the new characters he was spewing out on a daily basis? 


watching: virginia tech v. georgia tech

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Thread 58

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 04:28 pm    Post subject: Back story - Gambit
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Finally got up to X-MEN vol 2 #33 - the Paris flashback - so here's a rundown of Gambit's pre-debut flashbacks. Actually, nowhere near as convoluted as you might fear. 

GAMBIT vol 3 #23, p6pn4 (flashback) 
Jean-Luc LeBeau lifts the newborn Remy - not yet named, obviously - from his cot in a New Orleans hospital (because Remy's unusual eyes match a prophecy). Unlikely to be surpassed as Remy's chronologically earliest appearance! 

GAMBIT vol 3 #1, p15 (flashback) 
Immediately afterwards, Jean-Luc leaves the hospital through the window and takes Remy to the Antiquary, a member of the Guild. Jean-Luc is troubled by the prospect of Remy "spending his life in the Velvet Ministry." 

GAMBIT vol 3 #1, p16pn2 (flashback) 
A generic shot of young Remy with the Antiquary's children, "Fagan's Mob." 

GAMBIT vol 3 #25, pp1-11 (flashback) 
Young Remy (a "l'il mutant scamp") audaciously tries to steal an amulet from Mondo Mastiff, a powerful New Orleans businessman. He is caught, but Mastiff lets him go as a favour to his daughter. Remy's age is not given, but he is clearly a pre-teen boy, and his appearance is consistent with this placement. 

GAMBIT vol 3 #1, p16pn3-p17pn3 (flashback) 
Young Remy is wandering the rooftops when he sees Bella Donna Boudreaux being attacked by rebel members of the Assassins Guild. He rescues her, in their first meeting. They quickly bond. (The dialogue is inconsistent about Remy's age - he's either 8 or 10. The art is consistent with either.) 

GAMBIT vol 3 #1, p17pn4 (flashback) 
"Days later", Remy tries to pick Jean-Luc's pocket, and gets caught. 

GAMBIT vol 3 #19, p15pn4 (flashback) 
Bella Donna distracts a shopkeeper while young Remy shoplifts. 

Age 13, Gambit "marks his tilling" by completing a rite of passage ceremony (basically, stealing something). Never depicted, but references in GAMBIT #6. 

GAMBIT vol 3 #6, p4pn2-5 (flashback within flashback) 
13-year-old Thieves Guild member Etienne Marceaux is despatched on his own Tilling assignment. Remy, aged 15 years 6 weeks, is sent with him. 

GAMBIT vol 3 #6, pages 1-7 (flashback) 
Granada, Spain. Remy and Etienne have been discovered while trying to raid Candra's home as part of Etienne's tilling. They are captured. Candra recognises Gambit, having met him as a time-travelling adult. She has them sent to the Pig's slave training pen. The Pig tries to sell them to Madame Hydra; Remy uses his powers to blast a hole in the wall, and he and Etienne make a break for it. 

GAMBIT vol 3 #6, pages 11-15 (flashback) 
Very shortly after the above flashback. Remy and Etienne fight the Pig. Remy escapes, but Etienne is killed. 

X-MEN vol 2 #33, various flashabcks 
Aged 17 ("four months shy of my 18th birthday"), Remy is sent to Paris by the Thieves Guild. He is instructed to steal a pendant in order to obtain admission to the Guild's Elite. Rather than simply steal it, Remy cynically seduces Genevieve Darceneaux, the girl who currently holds it. Remy meets Sabretooth for the first time, when Sabretooth is hired to recover the pendant for its real owner. Sabretooth forces Gambit to let Genevieve die in order to rescue his brother Henri LeBeau. 

GAMBIT vol 3 #1, p17pn5 (flashback) 
Remy and Bella Donna's wedding ceremony. Seen from a different angle in issue #19, page 2, but that flashback adds nothing. 

X-MEN vol 2 #8, p18pn2 (flashback) 
Remy and Bella Donna kiss at their wedding ceremony, after being married. The same scene appear in flashback in GAMBIT #19, p16pn2, but again it adds nothing. 

X-MEN vol 2 #8, p18pn3 (flashback) 
Remy kills Bella Donna's brother Julien in a swordfight, after he protests the truce between the Assassins and the Thieves Guilds. 

X-MEN vol 2 #8, p18pn4 (flashback) 
The Guilds agree that Remy should leave New Orleans. Remy describes this as "a feeble attempt to maintain the non-aggression pact." The art shows Remy walking away from a group of Assassins in an underground vault; presumably the Thieves are off panel. 

Not depicted: Remy leaves New Orleans. Bella Donna is believed dead. 

WOLVERINE/GAMBIT: VICTIMS #3, pp1-10 (flashback) 
Events "from when I [Gambit] first came to London." Yukio is also operating as a thief, and tries to frame Gambit for her crimes. Gambit charms police officer Alexandra Davies into believing him, and helps Davies to arrest Yukio. He kisses Alexandra before he leaves; Gambit's narration says that "Trust was something I hadn't experienced in a long, long time." 

UNCANNY X-MEN #350, pp2-4 (flashback) 
Seattle. Gambit meets with Mr Sinister, to collect his pay for recruiting the Marauders. Dialogue makes clear that Gambit has definitely left New Orleans by this point. ("My people disowned me... My wife Bella Donna, been taken off dis earth well before her time.") Sinister pressgangs Gambit into helping the Marauders to find the Morlocks. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #350, p28pn5 (flashback) 
Gambit with the Marauders, apparently immediately before they leave for the Morlock Massacre. Arguably a symbolic panel; it makes no real difference for purposes of Gambit's chronology. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #350, p31pn2-3 (flashback) 
Gambit shows the Marauders (or at least some of them) the way into the Morlock tunnels. He sees the start of the Massacre. The MCP has him behind the scenes in issue #210 at this point as well, which seems reasonable. 

GAMBIT vol 3 #7, p8 (flashback) 
The Morlock Massacre is in progress. Gambit is shocked, having been told that the Marauders were merely going to abduct Morlocks for experimentation. He saves a boy from Sabretooth, protests to Scalphunter (the only Marauder he regards as a friend), and makes to leave. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #350, p31pn4,6-7 (flashback) 
Gambit tries to stop the Massacre, but Sabretooth nearly kills him. He saves Marrow, "but that was all I could do." Apparently he saved nobody else; this can be squared with GAMBIT #7 if Gambit did not actually succeed in escaping the tunnels with the boy, presumably because Sabretooth caught up with him. 

This gives us the following list, with additions asterisked and deletions in square brackets:- 

**GAM3 23-FB 
GAM3 1-FB 
GAM3 25-FB 
**GAM3 1-FB 
GAM3 19-FB 
GAM3 6-FB 
GAM3 6-FB [currently listed as GAM3 6 - but it does seem to be a FB, insofar as it's clearly set years before the "present day" timeframe for the series, albeit that nobody actually narrates it] 
[GAM3 23-FB - moved up] 
**X 33-FB 
[X 8-FB] 
GAM3 1-FB 
X 8-FB 
[GAM3 1-FB] 
[X 8-FB] 
W/G 3-FB 
UX 350-FB 
UX 210-BTS 
UX 350-FB 
GAM3 7-FB 
UX 350-FB 
UX 266
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 Oct 2004 05:49 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

The "boy" in GAM3 #7-FB is Marrow. Despite the short hair, Sabretooth calls her "girly", and she has telltale bones sticking out of her skin. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Oct 2004 06:00 pm    
By Dhall

It's not in the MCP itself, but in the issue anlysis thread, anyway 
I placed the flashback from Gambit & Bishop 2 before the fb in Gam3 25, based on Remy's age. 


GAM3 1-FB 
*G&B 2-FB 
GAM3 25-FB 


Dave H

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Thread 59

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 12:56 pm    Post subject: X-Force 116 & 117 related corrections
By Dhall

X-Force 116 

Characters: 

Zeitgeist 
Coach 
Anarchist 
Wolverine 
Cyclops 
Gin Genie / Beckah 
Battering Ram 
U-Go-Girl 
Le Nuit 
Plazm 
Doop 

Flashback Page 1, Page 21 panels 1,2: (Note that this is Axels dream, but these events really happened.) Axel, age 14 is about to have sex with a girl on the beach, when his powers manifest, and hurt her. 

Flashback Page 2: Panels 1,3, Page 3, Page 4 panel 4,5, Page 5: (on video monitor) 
X-Forces fight in North Africa. Zeitgeist burns some guys, Plazm, and Battering Ram and Le Nuit fight some other guys, Sluk dies, Gin Genies tremors nearly kill the team, Doop films, Edie is passed out after teleporting. 

Note: the fb (with Coach and Axel) in #120 occurs both after this fb, and sometime after Axel has met Tike. Probable between pages 6 and 7 of this issue. 

Note: The FB with Anarchist, Battering Ram, and Zeitgeist in #117 occurs between pages 19 and 20 of this issue, (We see the missile being fired at them, and we see how Tike survives, by jumping) 


Note: Cyclops appears in the same panel as Wolverine in this issue (116). (The glasses are a give away, look on the right side of the panel.) 

Note: The flashbacks in X-Statik 1, Page 1, Page 2 Panel 1: occur between pages 17 and 18, of issue 116, and show Zeitgeist, U-Go-Girl, Anarchist, La Nuit, and Battering Ram. 

Additions: 
ZEITGEIST II/AXEL CLUNEY 
*XFOR 116-FB 
*XFOR 116 
XFOR 120-FB 
{XFOR 116} 
*XSTATIX 1-FB 
*XFOR 116 
*XFOR 117-FB 
*XFOR 116 
*XFOR 117-FB (corpse) 


COACH 
*XFOR 116 
XFOR 120-FB 
{XFOR 116} 
XFOR 117 
XFOR 118 
XFOR 119 
XFOR 120 

GIN GENIE/BECKAH 
*XFOR 116-FB 
XFOR 116 

BATTERING RAM 
*XFOR 116-FB 
XFOR 116 
*XSTATIX 1-FB 
*XFOR 116 
*XFOR 117-FB 
*XFOR 116 

PLAZM 
*XFOR 116-FB 
XFOR 116 

LA NUIT 
*XFOR 116-FB 
XFOR 116 
*XSTATIX 1-FB 
*XFOR 116 (as corpse) 


U-GO GIRL/EDIE SAWYER 
*XFOR 116-FB 
XFOR 116 
*XSTATIX 1-FB 
*XFOR 116 
XFOR 117-FB 
XFOR 117 
XFOR 118 
XFOR 119 
XFOR 120 
TB 57 

DOOP 
*XFOR 116-FB 
XFOR 116 
XFOR 117-FB 
XFOR 117 
XFOR 118 
XFOR 119 
XFOR 120 
TB 57 

ANARCHIST/TIKE ALICAR 
XFOR 116 
*XSTATIX 1-FB 
*XFOR 116 
XFOR 117-FB 
XFOR 117 
XFOR 118 
XFOR 119 
XFOR 120 
TB 57 


SLUK 
*XFOR 116-FB 
(Note: His listing needs to be changed, as he only appears in the flashback, and NOT in the main part of 116.) 

Cyclops 
UX 393 
X 113 
TB 57 
CYCLOPS 1 (moved) 
CYCLOPS 2 (moved) 
CYCLOPS 3 (moved) 
CYCLOPS 4 
UX 394 
*XFOR 116 
W2 174-FB 
W2 173 
X 114 
X 115 
X 116

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 04:42 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Flashback Page 1, Page 21 panels 1,2: (Note that this is Axels dream, but these events really happened.) Axel, age 14 is about to have sex with a girl on the beach, when his powers manifest, and hurt her. 
<<<

It may have happened, but it doesn't qualify for an appearance, if it's in a dream...unless there's something extraordinary about this dream. 


watching: angel

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 04:49 pm    
By Dhall

Axel explicity states that this happened, (that it's not based on true events) but is in fact a true event. 

Or to quote the issue directly: 

"This is my dream. Only it's not just a dream. It really happened. It's the day that everything changed." 

If the dream is showing actual events that occured (and we know that to be the case,) why wouldn't we treat it as a flashback? 



Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 05:13 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

The very nature of a dream would tend to disqualify it. In a flashback, the character maintains conscious control over what they're remembering. In a dream, the subconscious is in control, and they can remember things that never happened. Dreams aren't trustworthy. 

Now if a character wakes up and says, "I had a dream, and the events in that dream actually happened that way," you might have a point. If the character says "I'm dreaming, and these events really happened," while he's dreaming, well, no, that's simply the subconscious talking, and the events are apocryphal. 


watching: charmed

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 05:53 pm    
By Dhall

Well in this case, the narration is in a yellow box voice over, that continues into the time when he is awake, and is not part of the dream itself. 

Does that help?

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 05:53 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
"I had a dream, and the events in that dream actually happened that way" 
<<<

See, I took Zeitgeist's narration to mean exactly that. 

It's notable that, in the dream, he can never remember the girl's name ... and he finally remembers, as he lays dying. "Maybe I'll stop dreaming about you now", he says. I'd count his dream as an accurate depiction of a past event. 

By the way, haven't we been taking Fontanelle's dreamscrapes from the GAM3 series as more-or-less canon flashbacks? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 06:41 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Yes, while it's a dream, it's very clear from the context that this is supposed to be an accurate depiction of events from Axel's past. There's nothing that would suggest otherwise.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 08:07 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
it doesn't qualify for an appearance, if it's in a dream...unless there's something extraordinary about this dream. 
<<<


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
haven't we been taking Fontanelle's dreamscrapes from the GAM3 series as more-or-less canon flashbacks? 
<<<


Yes, but that would be the "something extraordinary" part. 


watching: casper and wendy

			*	*	*

Thread 60

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 03:17 pm    Post subject: Calendar question
By Dhall

Paul, 
I see that the calendar has X-Statix 4 between X 130 and 131. 

Xavier makes a BTS app. in X-Statix 4, so I was wondering if it were 
possible to move these issues around, to put X-Statix 4 after Xavier's trip in X 130-133. 

Xavier, Professor 

X 133 
*XSTATIX 4-BTS 
UX 410

Last edited by Dhall on 29 Oct 2004 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 08:10 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Good catch, Dave. I'm moving X-Statix entries from XS 2 (2-13) through XS 5 (18-22) forward a week so that Xavier's BTS appearance in XS 4, in which he is presumed to be at the Institute, not globe-hopping, occurs two days after X 133. 

Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 61

Posted: 28 Oct 2004 10:01 pm    Post subject: Moving Alias #1-10
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

In the Marvel Calendar thread, Kevin W. wrote: 
Quote: 
>>>
I don't know exactly how to solve this conundrum perfectly, but I propose moving Alias 1-10 back, having the first part of issue 10 happen right after DD is outed by the newspapers...and having Alias 11-15 happen after Jameson fires Jessica in Alias 10 
<<<


I can see the need to move ALIAS 1-10 back so that the end of ALIAS 10 occurs before ALIAS 11. This not only allows for a sequential presentation of scenes involving Jessica, but it makes sense in relation to her work history. However, given the passage of time indicated in DD2, I'd be hard-pressed to get a full "two months" between ALIAS 10 (1-11) and ALIAS 10 (12-21). (Thanks yet again, Bendis.) 

Here's what I propose for new calendar placement of ALIAS 1-10. 

Sat 3/9 -- ALIAS 1 (1-12) 
Sun 3/10 -- ALIAS 1 (13-17) 
Mon 3/11 -- ALIAS 1 (18-23) 
Mon 3/11 -- ALIAS 2 
[New theory: There's nobody at Avengers' Mansion in ALIAS 2 because...they're all fighting Graviton in TB 57-58.] 
Mon 3/11 -- ALIAS 3 
Tue 3/12 -- ALIAS 4 
Tue 3/12 -- ALIAS 5 (1-5) 
Wed 3/13 -- ALIAS 5 (17-22) 
[Kang War proper -- 4/9 through 5/1] 
Thu 5/9 -- ALIAS 6 
Thu 5/9 -- ALIAS 7 (1-7) 
Fri 5/10 -- ALIAS 7 (8-22) 
Fri 5/10 -- ALIAS 8 (1-15) 
Sat 5/11 -- ALIAS 9-FB (19-22) 
Sat 5/11 -- ALIAS 8 (16-22) 
Sat 5/11 -- ALIAS 9 (1-18) 
Tue 5/14 -- ALIAS 10 (1-11) 
Thu 6/27 -- ALIAS 10 (12-21) 

Then we pick up with ALIAS 11 on 6/28 and so on. How does this look?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2004 11:11 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Looks pretty good overall. Your placement for a gap between issues 5 and 6 now works even better. In Issue 5, at the end of the storyline, Jessica calls up Carol, and it appears they're setting up a time to have lunch together. In Issue 6, they have that lunch together. So why the delay in getting together for a reunion? Well, a little old thing called the Kang War came up and put their little get together on hold... 

I like it. 

However, 

Quote: 
>>>
Tue 5/14 -- ALIAS 10 (1-11) 
<<<


Isn't this the actual date that Daredevil was outed by the press? Everyone's chronologies, (including J. Jonah Jameson's) are really busy that day. I was more thinking along the lines of it being the next day, or a few short days later, after Matt was outed. 

But yeah, this looks pretty good! So...you're actually willing to ignore the references made by Jessica and Jonah in Alias 10, to make this work? Cool! Who would've thought it!  

All kidding aside, I really do believe this placement helps out Jessica, Jonah, and Matt's chronologies over all...it just makes everything flow smoother...or as smooth as anything can be, when it comes to Bendis...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 07:02 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
In Issue 6, they have that lunch together. So why the delay in getting together for a reunion? Well, a little old thing called the Kang War came up and put their little get together on hold... <<<


Except that we still have a period of a few weeks between ALIAS 5 and the Kang War... 


Quote: 
>>>
Isn't this the actual date that Daredevil was outed by the press? Everyone's chronologies, (including J. Jonah Jameson's) are really busy that day. I was more thinking along the lines of it being the next day, or a few short days later, after Matt was outed.  
<<<


I think I can push it to the next day. 


I'll wait a day or two for more commentary on this, then if no one objects, I'll make the changes on the master copy of the calendar.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 08:34 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

For us non-calendar-heads, how does this proposed change alter the before-and-after appearances of the various guest stars in these issues, like Cap, Warbird, Jarvis, Jonah Jameson, etc.? 

Does Jarvis' contention in #9 that Rick Jones is "safe and sound in California" (or whetever he said) still stand up? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 07:46 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Warbird would be in ALIAS 3-6 between A3 44 and CA 50/6. 
Cap would be in ALIAS 5 between CA3 49 and CA 50/2. 
Jarvis would be in ALIAS 9 between CA3 45-FB and CA 50/2. 
JJJ would be in ALIAS 10 between PPSM 45 and ASM2 40. 


Quote: 
>>>
Does Jarvis' contention in #9 that Rick Jones is "safe and sound in California" (or whetever he said) still stand up?  
<<<


No problem. ALIAS 9 would occur between CM5 26 and 32.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 08:41 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Except that we still have a period of a few weeks between ALIAS 5 and the Kang War... 
<<< 


Ummm...well, Avengers business kept them from getting together! They were all getting ready for the Kang War! Yeah, that's it...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Thread 62

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 10:30 pm    Post subject: Flashbacks in ASM 513
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I'm not going to touch the flashbacks involving the twins, at least not yet. But there are three flashbacks involving Spidey on page 2 that I'd like to place. 

panel 3 
Spidey is grabbing hold of the back of Galactus' boot yelling "Hey! Hey! Hey-Hey-Hey-Hey-Hey!" Although the boot really doesn't look like Galactus', we're told that this is "rare footage from his [Spidey's] first encounter with Galactus." 
Could this occur between panels of FF 243? In that issue, the FF, the Avengers, and Dr. Strange battle Galactus while Spidey and DD decide to sit it out and watch. But maybe Spidey decided to get in the game or just got too close? 

panel 4 
Spidey is being grabbed in the fist of a Sentinel and Spidey says, "Careful, pal, that's not a bag of peanuts you're squeezing there, you know." We're told that this is a time when Spidey "got between a Sentinel and its prey." 
When does this occur? 

panel 5 
Spidey is yelling into a camera held by one Ray Hastings, a Spidey expert who got in Spidey's way one day in New York City. Spidey yells, "What the bleep is wrong with you? I almost had Doctor Doom until I tripped over you and this stupid bleep camera! Now stop bleep following me!" 
When does this occur?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2004 11:01 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

In regards to Spidey's battle with the Sentinel, it may have been during Onslaught, when a whole host of Sentinels descended on Manhattan. Spidey ended up fighting a few during an issue. 

It's possible that might have been Ben Reilly, though... It was somewhere during the Clone Saga. The costume will probably be a good indicator. 

I'm guessing that these scenes aren't particularly intended to fit anywhere specific. They've just been thrown out as gags, and it's now up to you guys to hammer them in somewhere.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2004 11:59 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
In regards to Spidey's battle with the Sentinel, it may have been during Onslaught, when a whole host of Sentinels descended on Manhattan. Spidey ended up fighting a few during an issue.  
<<<


Really? Can you provide a citation?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2004 12:18 pm    
By Ant-Man

That was Ben Reilly... 
Here's a link to the cover 

http://www.mycomicshop.com/webpics/B2328415.JPG
_________________
-Brian Cook-

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2004 12:29 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Spidey is grabbing hold of the back of Galactus' boot yelling "Hey! Hey! Hey-Hey-Hey-Hey-Hey!" Although the boot really doesn't look like Galactus', we're told that this is "rare footage from his [Spidey's] first encounter with Galactus." 
Could this occur between panels of FF 243? In that issue, the FF, the Avengers, and Dr. Strange battle Galactus while Spidey and DD decide to sit it out and watch. But maybe Spidey decided to get in the game or just got too close? 
<<<

I don't have ASM 513 yet, but there's certainly room for Spidey to sneak in on the action in FF 243. 

Of course, have we ever placed the flashback in Peter Parker: Spider-Man #36? That may be earlier chronologically. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Spidey is being grabbed in the fist of a Sentinel and Spidey says, "Careful, pal, that's not a bag of peanuts you're squeezing there, you know." We're told that this is a time when Spidey "got between a Sentinel and its prey." 
When does this occur? 
<<<

My guess is The World's Greatest Comic Magazine #3. There's a very clear battle between a bunch of heroes (including Spider-Man) and some Sentinels. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Spidey is yelling into a camera held by one Ray Hastings, a Spidey expert who got in Spidey's way one day in New York City. Spidey yells, "What the bleep is wrong with you? I almost had Doctor Doom until I tripped over you and this stupid bleep camera! Now stop bleep following me!" 
When does this occur? 
>>>

My guess would be ASM2 50. Although ASM 5 and ASM 349-350 seem like possibilities as well.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2004 04:34 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Good suggestions, Sean. 

I did some checking and here's what we have: 

ASM 513-FB (2p3) -- between pages 18 and 19 of FF 243 
(Spidey doesn't appear in pages 19-22 of FF 243.) 

ASM 513-FB (2p4) -- between panels 2 and 3 of page 16 of FF:WGCM 3 
(This scene involves Peter in the classic costume and can't be Onslaught related. One glitch, though...the Sentinels in FF:WGCM 3 are green and the one in this flashback is classic purple -- either a coloring error or perhaps a purple one was among the green bunch.) 

ASM 513-FB (2p5) -- between pages or panels of ASM 5? 
(It can't be tied to the Colorado setting of ASM2 50, as this flashback occurs "on the streets of New York City." As for ASM 349-350, Spidey doesn't encounter Doom until the end of ASM 349 and there's no logical place for this flashback in the course of ASM 350.) 
I don't have ASM 5 and am relying on the Index synopsis. There's a scene in which Doom uses a fire to distract Spidey to make his escape. Perhaps Spidey spots Doom again, but then trips over the photographer, so the escape is successful after all.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2004 05:19 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I don't have ASM 5 and am relying on the Index synopsis. There's a scene in which Doom uses a fire to distract Spidey to make his escape. Perhaps Spidey spots Doom again, but then trips over the photographer, so the escape is successful after all. 
<<<


Er...nope. Spidey makes a point of not going after Doom. "He's probably miles away by now, planning his next move. Well, time enough for him later...I'll snap a few pix of the burning building." 


watching: charmed

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 05:24 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Drat. Any other suggestions, folks?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2004 10:53 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

I got to thinking on the Dr. Doom one: we don't neccesarily HAVE to place it during a time when Spiderman and Doom actually fought. Spiderman could've been trailing Dr. Doom, and was about to "nab" Dr. Doom, when he tripped over the dork and his camera. Dr. Doom could've been in NYC concerning the Fantastic Four, not in relation to something happening in the Spiderman titles. So how many times has Dr. Doom been to New York, and is there some sort of spot where Spiderman could've been trailing/chasing Dr. Doom, only to trip and end up loosing Doom, (and thus, Doom continued doing whatever he was doing in that particular issue of Fantastic Four, or whatever...) 

I'm saying we're probably better off looking for spots in Fantastic Four's chronology, then in Spiderman vs. Dr. Doom chronology...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 06:55 am  
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Good idea, Kevin. Sean K., as our resident FF expert, do you have any suggestions?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 08:35 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Couple of things off the top of my head... 

FF@ 20 -- Doom barges into the Baxter Bldg to "borrow" Franklin to help fight Mephisto. He doesn't actually spend much time in NYC, and heads off to Hell fairly quickly. 

FF@ 23/2 -- Doom realizes how dangerous Molecule Man is and tries to dispose of him rather crudely. I like the placement here because Doom is being uncharacteristically nefarious. He's also definitely shown out and about on the streets of NYC, instead of specifically at the Baxter Bldg or the Latverian Embassy. 

FF 39-40 -- Doom tries to destroy a powerless FF. Daredevil is called upon for assistance, so it's possible Spidey was given a heads up to the situation as well. 

FF 259-260 -- Doom unleashes Terrax on the FF. His body is destroyed near the end of this tale. He's in view of the FF for most of this story. 

FF 311-312 -- Doom solicits the FF's help in regaining his lost memory. I'm disinclined to place things here since Doom is dining comfortably in the company of the Black Panther early on. 

FF 320/Hulk 350 -- Doom convinces the Hulk to take on the Thing. A possibility. 

Marvel: Onslaught -- Doom "helps" in the final confrontation against Onslaught. There wouldn't be much following necessary here, though, since everyone's fully aware of where Doom is. 

FF3 52-54 -- Doom speaks at the UN and midwifes for Sue Richards. He's in the company of the FF for most of this.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 10:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Well, Paul, based on your descriptions, I'd pick FF@ 23/2. Now where would that fall in Spidey's chronology?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 63

Posted: 26 Oct 2004 11:07 pm    Post subject: Adding page & panel ranges to the MCP
By Jason Doty

Since I Was Volunteered by the Administrator! 

I started with the letter "Z" as a trial run. I did not include flashbacks because I'm not sure if there are a single flashback in a book or more than one. Scanning the letter "Z" very closely, this is what I came up with. 
I will need help from everyone, because my collection is X-Men related as such. 

Zabu 

KZ2 1 
A 118 
KZ2 1 
........ 

KZ2 3 
M/TU 19 
KZ2 3 
........ 

UX 116 
CX 22/2 
UX 116 


Zarrko, Arthur 

FF 407 
FFUP 3 
FF 407 

Zemo/ Barron Heinrich Zemo 

A 6 
MARVELS 2-BTS 
A6 
........ 

A 15 
A 131 
A 132 
GSA 3 
A 15 


Now doing my part having the X-Men appearance of Zabu. How do you want to do this? 

Zabu 

UX 116 (pg.7 pn.1) 
CX 22/2 
UX 116 (pg.17 pn.1) 

or 

Zabu 

UX 116 
CX 22/2 (between pg.7 pn.1 and pg.17 pn.1) 
UX 116 

Of course I'll need help with characters outside the X-Men side, but how is this for a start. We can deal with the flashback issue at another time. 

Please post, so we can make the project just that much more complete.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Oct 2004 11:21 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Now doing my part having the X-Men appearance of Zabu. How do you want to do this? 

Zabu 

UX 116 (pg.7 pn.1) 
CX 22/2 
UX 116 (pg.17 pn.1) 
<<<


This way, although it would be more like 
UX 116 (pg. 1-pg. 7 pn. 1) 
CX 22/2 
UX 116 (pg. 17 pn. 2 - pg. 22 (or whatever)) 


watching: fox 6 news

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Oct 2004 11:38 pm    Post subject: Sounds Good!
By Jason Doty

Just so my post is correct. 

Zabu 

UX 116 (pgs. 1-7 pn.1) 
CX 22/2 
UX 116 (pg.17) 

Can anyone help with the other appearances using this aproach? 

Once we finish "Z", I'll move on to "Y". Thanks.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 12:01 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Okay, I've changed my mind. The reason why I was asking for a page and panel *range*, rather than simply a page/panel is because it's not clear at first glance whether the chronology continues *from* that panel to the next appearance, or *to* that panel from the previous appearance. 

However, listing a range of pages and panels will get unbearably tedious, and difficult to read, so what about this: 

follow the page/panel with a -> if we're going *from* a mid-story break, and precede the page panel if we're coming back *into* the break. 

Something like this: 

UX 116 pg 7 pn 1-> 
CX 22/2 
UX 116 ->pg 17 

The first UX 116 implies that you'd start with page 1, panel 1, and the second one implies that you finish with the last page and panel of the story. 

Hmmm....On third thought, if there were *two* breaks in the story, we'd still have to have a range, right? 

Thoughts, anyone? 


watching: malcolm in the middle

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 06:01 am    
By Jason Doty

We find range by comparing chronologies already. Lets go with your suggestion and just put a parenthesis around it. 

Zabu 

UX 116 (pg.7 pn.1->) 
CX 22/2 
UX 116 (->pg.17)

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 08:37 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Now I'm just lost. 

My concern about this is twofold: immediate readability, and space issues. I mean, the reason we have *codes* for each title rather than writing out the full title is to save space, yes? It seems to me that if we laboriously write out something like "p.1-p.3 panel 6" for EVERY character, EVERY time they have an issue interrupted by another scene -- it's going to build up to be a LOT of added text. 

That said, I suggest something similar to Paul's calendar notation of "XpY", where X is the page number and Y is the panel number. And I suggest listing the range, rather than just the panel where things break. 

Our Zabu example might be a bad one, since his CX #22/2 appearance doesn't BREAK UP a sequence of touching panels -- it just occurs in the gap between his appearances on p.7 and 17. For something like this, we don't even need to list the specific panels -- we just need to list the general PAGES that CX #22/2 falls between. 

Like this: 

UX 116 (1-7) 
CX 22/2 
UX 116 (17) 

(That's assuming that UX #116 has 17 pages, as most issues at that time did.) 

Now, let's pretend that Zabu's CX #22/2 appearance actually BREAKS UP a sequence of touching panels. Say, between p.4 panels 6-7. In that case, I think it should be listed like this: 

UX 116 (1-4p6) 
CX 22/2 
UX 116 (4p7-17) 

There's no need to specify that Zabu doesn't appear between p.7 panel 1 and p.17 -- the fact is, p.17 is Zabu's last appearance in that book, and no other appearances interrupt that range (now that I've "moved" the CX story). 

Also, if Zabu didn't appear until, for example, p.1 *panel 4* -- I still wouldn't feel the need to specify anything further than just the page number. In my opinion, the panel number should only be listed if it's completely necessary -- if the flashback or inserted story actually interrupts two panels on the same page. 

Anyway, there's my attempt to combine brevity with clarity. Any thoughts? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 11:05 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

What I've done on some of my material has been to note things with issue.page.panel with periods bewteen each. So Ben Grimm's early chronology might look like... 

FF 355.8.4 - 355.8.5 
FF3 56.3.2 - 56.4.6 
TG 1.10.1 - 1.15.2 
IC 2.16.2 - 2.16.5 
FF3 56.6.2 - 56.6.6 
TG 1.15.3 - 1.17.8 
FF3 56.10.2 - 56.10.5 
T:FS 1.1.1 - 1.4.9 

Now, you could easily truncate that since several instances cover entire pages... 

FF 355.8.4 - 355.8.5 
FF3 56.3.2 - 56.4 
TG 1.10 - 1.15.2 
IC 2.16.2 - 2.16.5 
FF3 56.6.2 - 56.6.6 
TG 1.15.3 - 1.17 
FF3 56.10.2 - 56.10.5 
T:FS 1.1 - 1.4 

... but I find that more confusing since you're switching in and out of using panel numbering. 

You could also do this... 

FF 355.8.4-5 
FF3 56.3.2-4.6 
TG 1.10.1-15.2 
IC 2.16.2-5 
FF3 56.6.2-6 
TG 1.15.3-17.8 
FF3 56.10.2-5 
T:FS 1.1.1-4.9 

... but I find that even more confusing as you're using the exact same system to express page AND panel ranges. 

Just food for thought.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 12:46 pm    
By shandrakor

Well, repeating the issue numbers is messy, since that won't change on any given line. 

Why not: 
FF 355 8p4-5 
FF3 56 3p2-4p6 
TG 1 10-15p2 
IC 2 16p2-5 
FF3 56 6p2-6 
TG 1 15p3-17p8 
FF3 56 10p2-5 
T:FS 1 1-4p9 

I changed the TG and T:FS ones because p1 is entirely unnecessary.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 12:47 pm    
By shandrakor

Quote: 
>>>
There's no need to specify that Zabu doesn't appear between p.7 panel 1 and p.17 -- the fact is, p.17 is Zabu's last appearance in that book, and no other appearances interrupt that range (now that I've "moved" the CX story). 

Also, if Zabu didn't appear until, for example, p.1 *panel 4* -- I still wouldn't feel the need to specify anything further than just the page number. In my opinion, the panel number should only be listed if it's completely necessary -- if the flashback or inserted story actually interrupts two panels on the same page. 
<<<
 


I absolutely agree.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 12:51 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I think parentheses are important, to better separate the page/panel number information from the issue number. 

My nightmare scenario is something like this: 

Silver Surfer vol. 3, issue #3, page 3 panel 3. 

SS3 3.3.3 

Or 

SS3 3 (3p3) 

Which is more easily readable? 

-Jeph! 


EDIT: Speaking of clarity, I'm gonna change the title of this thread so that folks know what we're discussing in here...

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 05:54 pm    
By Jason Doty

I'm definatly for Jeph's idea. the run on number thing hurts my eyes. 

Quote: 
UX 116 (1-7) 
CX 22/2 
UX 116 (17)  


Is this idea good for everyone? 

It is simple, easy to read and does not take up much text.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 07:04 pm    
By shandrakor

Looks good to me

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 09:22 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I have grown accustomed to the "XpY" convention and the parentheses and find that easy to read. I also agree with Jeph that we only get as specific with panel numbers as we need to for that character. 

Examples: 

UX 323 (1-6) 
DD2 63-FB 
UX 323 (19-22) 

A 124 (14-15p1) 
CX 17/2 
A 124 (15p2-21) 

And if a story has more than one flashback, it would be helpful to know which one it is with a similar page/page range notation after the "-FB."
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 11:02 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
A 124 (15p2-21) 
<<<


Is "21" referring to "page 21" or "page 15 panel 21"? The "XpY" notation isn't very clear; I personally prefer Jeph's version of the system. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 11:13 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Uh...that *is* Jeph's version. Isn't it? I mean, it's Paul B's version, but Jeph is supporting it. 


watching: buffy

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 12:36 am    
By shandrakor

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Is "21" referring to "page 21" or "page 15 panel 21"? 
<<<


Page 21. Panel numbers are always designated with a p. If it were the other case, it would be (15p2-15p21). Awfully busy page layout  

I haven't noticed people having trouble reading the calendar, which is formatted exactly this way...

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2004 07:12 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

He's got a point, though -- what if it was (1p2-3)? 

Does that mean page one, panels 2-3? Or page one, panel 2 -- to page three inclusive? 

A little tweaking might be necessary here... 

(1p2-p3) for p.1 panels 2-3, versus (1p2-3) for p.1 panel 2 to the end of p.3? 

Or, in a range where the beginning lists a panel number, should we also always list the panel number of the range's end? 

(1p2-3) for p.1 panels 2-3, versus (1p2-3p6) for p.1 panel 2 to the end of a six-panelled p.3? 

I'll think about this a little more on my way to work. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Oct 2004 08:58 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

A "p" should always (and only) be used to signify a panel. So page 1 panel 2 through page 1 panel 3 would be 1p2-p3. Page 1 panel 2 through page 4 panel 3 would be 1p2-4p3. 

You should not use the panel (p) notation for ranges that begin with a first panel or end with a last panel. Page 1 panel 2 through page 3 panel 6 (where page 3 has six panels) would be 1p2-3. Page 2 panel 1 through page 3 panel 3 would be 2-3p3. In practice, I don't think a range would ever start with a p1. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 09:43 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
So page 1 panel 2 through page 1 panel 3 would be 1p2-p3. 
<<<


Actually, my convention is to make it more obvious, thusly: 1p2-1p3. A number is always at the beginning of a page/panel designation, whether you're dealing with the beginning of a range or the end of the range.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Oct 2004 11:47 am    Post subject: Has a concencus been reached!
By Jason Doty

Has the Administrator or Moderators come to a concensus of how they want to approach this?, and if not do you want me to scan the MCP and post where we need to address this and line up volunteers where needed? 

I still think this is a worth while endevour, and don't want to see it pushed back indefinately. 

After this project I think it would also be benificial to list page and panel numbers for the flashbacks, but one step at a time.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Oct 2004 02:08 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Has the Administrator or Moderators come to a concensus of how they want to approach this?,  
<<<

No, the discussion is centered on how to present the listings. It has nothing to do with your posts. You can post them as you like, so long as they're readable and comprehesible. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
and if not do you want me to scan the MCP and post where we need to address this and line up volunteers where needed? 
<<<

Don't scan the MCP. Do it one page at a time. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
After this project I think it would also be benificial to list page and panel numbers for the flashbacks, but one step at a time. 
<<<


We might at some point start numbering the flashbacks, if a character appears in more than one. While it would be appropriate to list page and panel if a flashback is broken in the middle by other appearances, we would not do that for simple flashbacks, any more than we would for regular appearances. 


watching: tennessee v south carolina

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Posted: 30 Oct 2004 03:39 pm    
By Jason Doty

When I scan, I was planing to do it one letter at a time, listing all of the comics that appear between the pages of another comic, excluding flashbacks. Then posting the characters who start with that letter in alphabetical order along with the issues for assistance in showing between what pages numbers these comics take place. 

Is that what you mean by page by page? 

Once all of the characters for that letter are completed, well close out that letter and and start the next. Giving people insentive to participate. 

Hows that? 

In the mean time yourself and the moderators can come up with the best possible way to present the collected info. 

Also would you like me to post here or in the issue analysis section?

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Oct 2004 04:00 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
When I scan, I was planing to do it one letter at a time, listing all of the comics that appear between the pages of another comic, excluding flashbacks. Then posting the characters who start with that letter in alphabetical order along with the issues for assistance in showing between what pages numbers these comics take place. 

Is that what you mean by page by page? 

Once all of the characters for that letter are completed, well close out that letter and and start the next. Giving people insentive to participate. 

Hows that? 
<<<


I'm not sure why you'd want to exclude flashbacks, only to have to revisit them later, but...what I'm asking is that we not bring up these questions about the Y page, until the Z page questions have been answered. 


Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Also would you like me to post here or in the issue analysis section? 
<<<


Here. 


watching: georgia v florida

			*	*	*

Thread 64

Posted: 30 Oct 2004 05:27 am    Post subject: MTIO#20...didn't the modern Blue Diamond....
By Enda80

I am told that in MTIO#79, when the Thing meets the modern Earth-616 Blue Diamond, the latter remembered the meeting between the Liberty Legion and the Thing that took place in MTIO#20 and Invaders Annual#1. That would seem to indicate that it was part of regular history. If so, that might mean that the appearance of U-Man, Sky Shark, Master Man, Brain Drain, Blue Diamond, etc. could be added to their chronology.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Oct 2004 01:52 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Er...not quite. The Blue Diamond looks back on his career, and there's a footnote pointing the reader to the Invaders series (no specific issue) for more information, but he doesn't mention meeting the Thing. Ben Grimm later tells Blue Diamond that he (Grimm) remembers meeting him (Diamond) back in the war (a comment which, in fact, must have mightily confused the Diamond), but nothing pointing in the other direction. 

At one point his thought balloons indicate they've never met: 

Blue Diamond said: 
>>>
For hours, I have stood by this window--hoping to catch a glimse of him--anxious to see one of the world's greatest super heroes... 
<<<


But, in any case, thanks for bringing the issue to my attention. Reviewing it reveals that the chronologies are incorrect, and that Blue Diamond appears here after Invaders 35-38, not before. 


watching: tennessee v south carolina

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Oct 2004 03:25 pm 
By DonCampbell

Since the story in MTIO #20 and MTIO Annual #1 involved Ben Grimm going back to 1942 to retrieve a half-cylinder of Vibranium that had been accidentally sent back in time, the whole story SHOULD have been set in a divergent timeline. That's what happened with FANTASTIC FOUR Annual #11, in which the FF went back in time to 1942 France to retrieve the other half of that Vibranium cylinder and met up with the Invaders. That story, written by Roy Thomas, ended with Reed Richards explaining that the reason why their friends (Captain America and Namor) had never mentioned meeting them in 1942 was because the whole adventure had taken place in an alternate timeline which diverged from the mainstream timeline when the Vibranium appeared out of nowhere and fell into Nazi hands. Unfortunately, the fact that several issues of INVADERS refer to the MTIO adventure indicates that the writers involved were a bit unclear on the concept. 

First, there's INVADERS #17 in which Master Man mentions that "It is good that (Hitler's) spies rescued me from the top-security cell in which the hated Liberty Legion had me confined." Since Master Man's only known prior encounter with the Liberty Legion was in that MTIO storyline, this would indicate that writer Roy Thomas believed that that storyline took place on Earth-616's past and not in a divergent timeline. However, if you wanted to get around that reference, you could argue that, in Earth-616's history, the Liberty Legion DID fight and capture Master Man in an (unpublished) adventure that took place sometime between the events depicted in Giant-Size Invaders #1 and Invaders #16. 

Second, there's INVADERS #41 in which Meranno the U-Man mentions that "Once, Master Man and I even fought side-by-side...against the Liberty Legion."* Althhough this story was written by Don Glut, editor Roy Thomas added the footnote which reads "*Way back in Marvel Two-in-One #20." I can't think of any way around this reference except to say that both the writer and the editor made a mistake. 

In conclusion, while the 1942 events depicted in those MTIO stories should have taken place in a divergent timeline, there are stories which were written as though the MTIO adventure was part of Earth-616's history. Should those in-story references be ignored as mistakes? Or should they *somehow* be treated as canon? 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Oct 2004 05:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
That story, written by Roy Thomas, ended with Reed Richards explaining that the reason why their friends (Captain America and Namor) had never mentioned meeting them in 1942 was because the whole adventure had taken place in an alternate timeline which diverged from the mainstream timeline when the Vibranium appeared out of nowhere and fell into Nazi hands.  
<<<


This evidence is enough for me to treat those stories as divergent timeline epics that don't involve mainstream MU WWII figures, but rather divergent timeline counterparts. The Master Man and U-Man comments can be attributed to unpublished adventures and the editor's footnote to M/TIO 20 is just a mistake. And fortunately the Blue Diamond is not shown as remembering the Thing.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 65

Posted: 03 May 2004 04:35 pm    Post subject: Ux 425 & UX 426
By Dhall

This may have been addressed on the previous board, but does anyone have a list of which characters appear in UX 425 and 426 (the art kind of doesnt make this clear.) If someone could post a link, or a list, or email me at Dhall@mn.rr.com It would help me out. 

Thanks, 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 May 2004 09:30 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I can't find my original post on the old board, nor any notes on my computer ... but here's what I posted to the X-Universe Message Board back when #425 came out: 

-------- 
I've spent a while staring at the issue and discussing it on the Marvel Chronology Project board, and here's the identities we've sort of decided on: 

Bachelorette party: 

Jean Grey, Polaris, Jubilee, Northstar, Val Cooper, Dani Moonstar, the Scarlet Witch, Husk, and Shadowcat. 

Bachelor party: 

Cyclops, Forge, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Havok, the Beast, Archangel, the Multiple Man, Quicksilver, and the Juggernaut. 

The wedding: 
- Double-page spread, pages 17-18: 

Left side: 
First row: Wolfsbane, Shadowcat, Jubilee, Husk, Jean (standing). 
Second row: unkown (Siryn?), Dani Moonstar, Val Cooper, the Multiple Man. 
Third row: Gambit, Rogue, unknown, Northstar, unknown. 
Fourth row: two unknowns, Iceman, Annie, and Carter. 
Fifth row: unknown, Domino, Soldier X, unknown, Wolverine. 

Right side: 
First row: the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver. 
Second row: unknown. 
Third row: Forge. 
Fourth row: unknown, Xorn. 

The blonde next to Forge MIGHT be Emma Frost, but I doubt it very much. 

On stage: 
Archangel, the Beast, Prof. X, Nightcrawler, Cyclops and Havok, with some blonde woman. 

- pages 19-20: 
Polaris is led down the aisle by her adopted father, Mr. Dane. The only other new addition is an unnamed priest. 

- page 21: 
presumably the gray-haired woman in the front is Lorna's adopted mother, Mrs. Dane. Even if that's not her, Lorna claims on this page that both her parents are in attendance -- so Mrs. Dane must be somewhere in that crowd. 

- page 22, the border shots: 

Top row: Archangel, unknown man, unknown blonde, Corsair, unknown old woman, Mam'selle Hepzibah, two unknowns and the Beast. 

Left column: Forge, the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Xorn, Jean Grey, Cyclops. 

Right column: the Beast, unknown girl and boy, Val Cooper, Iceman, Carter, and Annie. 

Bottom row: Husk, Nightcrawler, unknown woman, Prof. X, Wolverine, Jubilee, and plenty of unknowns in the background. 

-------- 

Here's some notation on WHY I made the decisions I did. 

Bachelorette party: 

Jean Grey, Polaris, Jubilee, Northstar - identified by dialogue. 

Husk - dialogue on p.17 proves she was at the party. 

the Scarlet Witch - assumption based on Quicksilver's presence at the bachelor party, and a woman with this hairstyle sitting next to Quicksilver at the wedding (p.18). 

Val Cooper - assumption, based on the fact that Quicksilver and Forge from X-Factor are also in attendance. 

Dani Moonstar, Shadowcat - assumptions, based on hairstyles. 


Bachelor party: 

Cyclops, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Havok, the Beast, Archangel, Quicksilver, the Juggernaut - identified by dialogue, costume, or distinctive physical characteristics. 

Forge - assumption based on hairstyle (who else has a mustache and ponytail?) 

the Multiple Man - assumption, based on the fact that Quicksilver and Forge from X-Factor are also here. 


The wedding: 
- Double-page spread, pages 17-18: 

On stage: 

Archangel: shown on-stage at the very start of #426. 

the Beast, Prof. X, Nightcrawler, Cyclops, Havok, (unknown blonde) - identified by distinctive looks or dialogue. (The blonde on Havok's right is likely one of Lorna's other bridesmaids -- she mentioned wanting six in UX #422, and only four are in the front row.) 

Left side: 
First row: 

Wolfsbane, Shadowcat - assumptions based on hairstyles. (I feel confident in saying that the brunette, Shadowcat or not, was the same brunette from the party.) 

Jubilee, Husk - identified by dialogue. 

Jean (standing) - identified in previous issues as the maid of honor. 

Second row: (unknown) 

Dani Moonstar, Val Cooper, the Multiple Man - assumptions. Whoever they are, they're likely the same people from the parties. 

Third row: 

Gambit, Rogue - assumptions based on the woman's hairstyle (white stripes) and the man's scruffy chin. (Plus, of course, the story point that Lorna has a thing for Gambit.) 

(unknown), Northstar, (unknown) -- hey, Northstar was at the party, he MUST have been invited to the wedding. You don't come to the bachelor/ette party and not the wedding. If this guy isn't Northstar, then someone else in the audience is. 

Fourth row: 

(two unknowns), Iceman, Annie, and Carter - identified by dialogue. 

Fifth row: 

(unknown), Domino - identified by the patch on her eye. 

Soldier X - assumption. A large man sitting next to Domino, with what appears to be eye scarring, combined with the notion that since Nathan is Havok's NEPHEW, he would definitely be invited -- which would explain why Domino, who's obviously present, got invited as well. 

(unknown), Wolverine - identified by his distinctive look. 

Right side: 
First row: the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver - Quicksilver was at the bachelor party, and was likely also invited to the wedding. Here we see a man with white hair seated next to a woman with curly red hair. It's GOT to be Pietro and Wanda, and that would allow me to assume that the curly redhead from the bachelorette party is Wanda too. 

Second row: (unknown) 

Third row: Forge - assumption, based on mustache. Likely the same guy from the party, whoever he is. 

(unknown blonde) - there's an outside chance that this is Emma Frost, but I wouldn't put money on it. 

Fourth row: (unknown), Xorn - identified based on distinctive look. 


- page 22, the border shots: a lot of these folks I'd already assumed/confirmed on the previous page. Here I'm only justifying the few who I didn't already point out at the wedding. 

Top row: 

Archangel - already listed 

(unknown man), (unknown blonde), Corsair, (unknown old woman), Mam'selle Hepzibah - assumption, but a good one. Corsair is the groom's FATHER, he's got to be there -- and here we see a man with a mustache (with Forge elsewhere on the same page), next to a woman with white skin who's not Domino. Kind of shouts Corsair and Hepzibah, doesn't it? 

(two unknowns) and the Beast - already listed. 

Left column: 

Forge, the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Xorn, Jean Grey, Cyclops - already assumed to be in attendance. 

Right column: 

(unknown girl and boy), Val Cooper, Iceman, Carter, and Annie - already assumed to be in attendance. 

Bottom row: 

Husk, Nightcrawler, (unknown woman), Prof. X, Wolverine, Jubilee, (and plenty of unknowns in the background) - all already listed. 
-------- 

Hope that helps, Dave. Let me know if you disagree with any of this -- I've gotten pretty good at defending my choices over on X-Board. ;-) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 May 2004 09:47 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I can't find my original post on the old board, nor any notes on my computer ...  
<<<


It's in the archive from June 2003. 


watching: married with children

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 May 2004 10:40 pm    
By Dhall

Question: How do we get to the archives? (I can't find a link.) 

I don't have a lot to add (except for a few things, heh) and I do not disagree with any of your assumptions Jeph, though I do believe that you ragged on me for making assumptions about who was attending Jean and Scott's wedding (I still think that is Shanna and Ka-zar!), so in that spirit I will caution you sternly about making assumptions. That said I think yours are spot on. 

Okay, Iceman and Annie were also invited to the Bachelorette party, but ended up sitting together at the "runner's up table" instead of sitting with the party. 
Lorna probably invited the both of them in order to make them feel bad, judging from her (austin written) actions in these issues. 

The page 22 man you list as top row: unknown shouting man, is green with green hair, looks like the Hulk to me (Yes I know it makes no sense, I didn't write it.) 

Lorna's adopted mother should also be somewhere at the wedding. Havok and Annie both refer to "Lorna's parents in the beginning of the issue, " so she must be somewhere at the wedding. Since she's the mother of the bride, she should have a good seat. 

Since we've never seen Mr. or Mrs. Dane before on panel, it's impossible to tell where she is, perhaps off panel on the other side of Quicksilver. 
She has to be present anyway. 
Perhaps she's the white haired woman we see on pg.21 crying (standing behind Alex) 

Sam (Cannonball)'s dialogue in X-Treme X-Men 40 strongly implies that he was at the wedding. It also sounds like he talked to Paige while he was there. He saw her in costume, and got some ideas about the Husk-Archangel relationship. Perhaps he is the blonde unknown in the row behind Jean. 

Also is it possible that Jean brought along Joey and Gayln and that they are the two unkown children in the border? There's no real reason why Jean's parents would be here, but why not the kids? 

Now let's think logically about who else might have gotten an invite (even if they didn't show up) and ALSO about who might have gotten brought along, as a date or guest of someone who did get an invite. 

For example, if that woman next to Logan was a date, who could it be? Or who could Forge have possibly come with, who has blonde hair? (Too bad there's no way that could be Mystique....) 

Also, if Cannonball, Shadowcat, Rogue, and Gambit got invites, it's likely that Storm, Bishop, and Sage did too. (I doubt they attended the wedding though, and I see no evidence for adding them.) It's likely that evey current X-Man was invited. 

Likewise, if most of the original New Mutants were invited, Xian probably was too. (Again no evidence that she attended.) 

Now if Sam came, he may have brought Lila with, but that is speculative. 

If the rest of Lorna's old X-Factor team is present, where's Guido? I would have loved to see him at the bachelor party. <sigh> 

I didn't see anyone who meets the description, but any evidence that any of the otehr Starjammers attended? 

Jeph, Why are you so convinced that Emma wouldn't attend? If anyone would know (and want to watch) the train wreck that was about to happen, it would be Emma. 

and lastly can we think of anyone else close enough to Lorna or Alex that they would HAVE to be there? 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 May 2004 02:13 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Surely Havok's adoptive parents are there. Assuming that they're still alive, which I'm unsure of.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 May 2004 08:27 am    
By Dhall

His parents should be there. It is a little odd, how he keeps talking about Lorna's adoptive parents and not his own. I think we may have actually seen Havok's adoptive parents once in an old back up story somewhere, but I'm not sure. I'm also not sure if we've ever learned thier names, which would make it hard to list them in the MCP. 


Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 May 2004 10:07 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

We met them in X-Factor #-1. 

Dunno if they'd be there, though -- I mean, once Havok was reunited with Cyclops in UX #55, has he mentioned his adoptive family even once? He's a bad son. Bad, bad Havok. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 May 2004 11:07 am    
By Dhall

You would think that he might have mentioned them if they were going to be at the wedding, but Jeph is right, Havok has never mentioned them before. So we cannot assume that they were there. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 May 2004 09:40 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Question: How do we get to the archives? (I can't find a link.) 
<<<


There's a link to archives at the top of the old posting board. There's no onsite link to the old posting board, because I don't want anyone posting there. 


watching: seinfeld

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 May 2004 10:37 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
We met them in X-Factor #-1. 


His adoptive fathers name was Andrew, and his adoptive sister's name was Haley... but the mother wasn't given a first name and the family didn't get a last name. Alex was called "Summers" more than once in XF -1, so it's likely that they hadn't formally adopted him by that point (aged ~13). 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 May 2004 08:51 am    
By Dhall

Russ, How far along are you in regards to posting corrections from the old board? 

Thanks, 
Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 May 2004 10:09 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

We'll post all corrections from the old posting board this weekend, catching us up to February. 


watching: smallville

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 May 2004 10:45 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

As promised, all corrections from the old posting board are now up on the site. 


watching: wolfen

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Posted: 11 May 2004 07:12 pm    
By Dhall

By the way, according to X-Men 52 Lorna was brought up by her Father's sister and her husband, after the plane crash in which her parnets were killed (which happened only a few weeks after Lorna's birth.) 

Recent issues make her out to be the daughter of Magneto. 

So the question is, who are Lorna's stepparents supposed to be? 

And how does Zala Dane work into that equation? 


Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2004 09:25 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I would assume she was brought up by her *mother's husband's* sister and her husband. That, if she was Magneto's daughter, her mom *slept* with Magneto -- but was married to another man. 

Zala Dane, then, is probably the natural child of Lorna's mom and Lorna's mom's husband. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2004 10:04 am    
By Dhall

Well presumably, but I would like to see it in a story. I mean, the family never told Lorna she had a sister? And Zala would have had to have been the older sister, as Lorna's parents died in a plane crash a few weeks after her birth. 

They both have to have the same mother (if Magneto is Lorna's real dad.) as Moira determined they were so genetically similar that they must be sisters. 

So why was the existance of Lorna's sister covered up? She kept the family name after all.... 

And who names their kid Zala anyway? 

We'll probably never get an actual in story answer to any of this. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 09:02 am    
By dimadick

"And Zala would have had to have been the older sister, as Lorna's parents died in a plane crash a few weeks after her birth." 


Lorna helds the name "Dane" from her addoptive father. Her natural mother's brother-in-law. The last names of her natural mother and her own husband have never been revealed. So Lorna's birth name is effectively unknown. 

Perhaps Zala is an addoptive sister, the natural daughter of the Danes?

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 09:16 am    
By Dhall

Moira said that Zala would have to be Lorna's sister, in order for her to be able to absord Lorna's powers.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 09:49 am    Post subject: Cousins?
By dimadick

Yes, but in Uncanny X-Men #274-275 Zala also manages to absorb some of Magneto's powers. And they are not suppossed to be related to each other. As the Danes' daughter Zala would at least be first cousins with Lorna. Close enough a genetic match to fool Moira? Or did the Danes addopt two daughters? And people wonder about Lorna's paranoid behavior these days!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 10:45 am    
By Dhall

Unless Lorna and Zala are twins, and both Magneto's daughters.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 11:38 am    Post subject: Magneto, father of five?
By dimadick

That would mean Magneto has killed one of his own daughters. By the way Magnus seems to be quite a candidate for the title of "Father of Homo superior" if he is indeed the father of five of them: Anya, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Polaris, Zaladane. The only sibling excluded as a candidate yet seems to be Nuklo.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 May 2004 02:17 pm    
By Dhall

Sadly, I doubt that we'll ever get a good on panel explanation of the Dane family. It would really make me happier, if it was properly addressed in an issue. (And yes I know the chances of that are slim to none.) 

Still it's fun to speculate. 

Dave H

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 02:39 pm    
By Dhall

Back to the topic at hand: 
I am going to write up an analysis of this issue for the issue thread. I am going to use Jephs list with the following additions: 

Cannonball (the dialogue in XX 40 makes it clear that hes present at the wedding.) 

Siryn (Jeph has her listed with a question mark, but given that her and Lorna were both on the Muir-Island X-Men, why wouldnt she get an invite?) 

Hulk (I dont have any idea why the Hulk is here, perhaps its an in-joke, but the fact is thats the Hulk on page 22, it makes no sense, but unless its impossible for him to be here, then here he is.) (Someone give me a well thought out rationale to ignore this panel, and I would be happy to!) 

Dave H

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 02:48 pm    
By Dhall

And a list for UX 426, please post if you can recognize any unkowns on pages 2-4..... 

Page 2-3: 
Juggernaut (clearly identifiable, is inside mansion, and not at the wedding) 
Angel (clearly identifiable) 
Nightcrawler (clearly identifiable) 
Cyclops (has head thrown back) 
Xavier (clearly identifiable) 
Polaris (clearly identifiable) 
Jean Grey (clearly identifiable) 
Husk (based on being in front row in UX 425, dress) 
Jubilee (clearly identifiable) 
Shadowcat (based on being in front row in UX 425, dress) 
Wolfsbane (based on being in front row in UX 425, dress) 
Forge (man with mustache and hands on top of head?) 
Annie (clearly identifiable, by hair, proximity to Iceman) 
Carter (clearly identifiable by being by Annie) 
Havok (man in front of Iceman, clearly identifiable in later pages) 
Iceman (clearly identifiable, by glasses) 

Other wedding guests (many from UX 425 will receive a bts) 

Page4: 
Polaris, Nightcrawler, Annie, Carter, Iceman, Havok (previously identified) 

Could the floating woman with the red hair be the Scarlet Witch? 
Several unknowns

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 02:53 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

As for Siryn -- just because she MIGHT have been sent an invite, doesn't mean she actually showed up. Never Assume. 

And as for the Hulk? No. I'm sorry, but ... no. Call it a large angry member of Lorna's extended family, accidentally colored green. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 03:18 pm    
By Dhall

Siryn, there's a red head that could be her next to Dani. There's as much evidence for it being Siryn, as there is for some of the other characters whom we've decided are present (hairstyle, and hair color) such as Shadowcat, Wolfsbane, Val Cooper, or Forge for that matter. 

Can we just say that Lorna's extended family members turn green? 
Whatever, I'm just pointing out that "The Hulk" was probably put in there deliberately as a joke by the artist. It seems like a stretch for him to be here, but given the panel, it seems like a stretch for it to be anyone else. I'm happy to ignore it if that's the consensus..... 


Dave H

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 08:47 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

FWIW, in the revamped calendar (not the one posted), Bruce Banner is in California (between H3 70 and 71) at the time of UX 425-426.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 09:42 pm    
By Dhall

Perfect, then it cannot be him. And we can chalk that up to either colorist error, or more likely a joke. That is a relief. Thanks Paul. 

Dave H

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 11:07 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Perfect, then it cannot be him. 
<<<


Unless there's textual evidence in the comics themselves that the Hulk was in one place at the exact point of the wedding, then yes, it could. (Not that I think it was him.) 

-Sean

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 11:52 pm    Post subject: Some things i thought of
By AaronRStanley

not to be a johnny come lately, but in #425, Lorna is seen walking down the aisle with a man. tradionally (and this wedding seems pretty traditional), the father gives the bride away. 
and Lorna does say her parents are there. 

also, at the bachelor party, instead of Madrox, could it not be Corsair? would a father not want to be there?
_________________
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Posted: 29 Oct 2004 08:27 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Corsair's got a big freaking mustache. Madrox doesn't. 

Corsair IS present at the wedding, though, with Mam'selle Hepzibah. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Oct 2004 09:13 am    
By Dhall

The Dane family, Mr. and Mrs. and probably lots of assorted relatives are definitly there. The problem is that none of then have ever appeared in a comic before, and none of them are named, so we can't put anybody besides Mr. and Mrs. Dane into the MCP..... 

Now if we ever get a comic, where Lorna's cousin Edgar (let's say) shows up and starts talking about being at the wedding, then he gets a listing added for these issues, no questions asked. Right now, we're hard pressed to know for sure which woman is Mrs. Dane, just that she is definitly present. 

Dave H

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Posted: 29 Oct 2004 11:21 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Again -- do we even know that Lorna's step-parents' last names ARE Dane? 

Okay, from memory: she was adopted by the (brother or sister) of her (mother or father). I forget which -- and more importantly, I can't figure out if Dane was her birth parents' family name, her step-parents' family name -- or both. 

I'll try to do some research on this, but if someone knows the answer, feel free to speak up. Paul O'Brien, I'm hopefully looking at you... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Oct 2004 11:56 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Okay -- according to the bio on uncannyxmen.net, which allegedly pulls information from UX #52, Lorna was adopted by her father's sister and her husband, and took THEIR family name of Dane. 

So if "Dane" was the sister's married name, then it WASN'T her family name -- and therefore her birth parents weren't named Dane. And neither was Lorna, originally. 

(Yes, I say "birth parents", even though by current retcon Magneto is Lorna's father. When I say "birth parents", I suppose I mean Lorna's birth mother and her husband.) 

Oddly, though, Zaladane -- real name, presumably Zala Dane -- claims to be Lorna's sister. If she was born of Lorna's birth parents, her name wouldn't be Dane. And if she was born of Lorna's adoptive parents, the Danes, and was her adoptive sister -- then they wouldn't be genetically related at all. (The logic being: the only genetic link between Lorna's birth parents and the Danes is that Mrs. Dane is the sister of Lorna's "birth father". However, according to the recent retcon, he's not her birth father at all, but merely her birth mother's husband -- the birth mother must have cheated on him [or something] with Magneto. So, no true genetic link between Lorna and Zala.) Which begs the question, how did they switch powers in UX #249? 

Possible answers: 

- they switched powers through some method that DIDN'T rely on genetic relation. 

- "Zala Dane" isn't her real name, and she IS Lorna's genetic sister. (Perhaps she was orphaned and adopted alongside Lorna, and had her last name changed to Dane as well.) 

- Zala IS Lorna's birth sister, Zala Dane IS her real name, and "Dane" WAS her parents' family name -- meaning the info in the online bio is flawed. 

- Magneto is NOT Lorna's biological father -- the tests were rigged somehow -- and Lorna IS her "birth father's" daughter, making her genetically related to Zala no matter which family are Zala's parents -- either she's Zala's sister, or her cousin. (This supposition is supported by a genetic test done over in the Age of Apocalypse -- Factor X #2 -- which showed that Magneto WASN'T Lorna's father.) 

In any event, if the UXM.net bio *is* accurate on the matter of her step-parents' last names -- and three out of the four options above presume that -- then Lorna's step-parents at the wedding *were* named "Mr. and Mrs. Dane". 

For the moment I'd enter them as Dane, Mr. and Mrs. and change it only if we get some more information from future books. 

(Can anyone check if the machine used in UX #249 depended on genetic similarity to give Zala Lorna's powers? That could help us narrow down the possibilities here.) 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Oct 2004 02:10 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
(Can anyone check if the machine used in UX #249 depended on genetic similarity to give Zala Lorna's powers? That could help us narrow down the possibilities here.) 
<<<


I just checked #249 and 250, it is acutally the latter issue where it is used. There is no mention as to how the device works.
_________________
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Posted: 29 Oct 2004 03:06 pm    
By Dhall

Another possibility: 
both birth father and step-father had the last name Dane. 

yeah, unlikely but then I know a woman who's mother and father both have the same last name (by birth) and while we tease her often, there is no relation there other than marriage. 

Just saying there are ways that her original name could have been Dane, and that still be her adopted families name. The birth father and the step-father could have been cousins or something. Who knows? 

Dave H

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Posted: 29 Oct 2004 03:16 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I'll check UX #52 when I get home, but it seems that we've got heavy odds favoring that Lorna's step-parents ARE named "Mr. and Mrs. Dane". 

I'm still not convinced about Siryn's presence at the wedding, though. I'll buy that the former members of X-Factor were invited, but "Siryn and Lorna were on the Muir Island X-Men together" isn't much of a bond -- wasn't Lorna locked up in a shielded room and being used as a negative-energy amplifier by the Shadow King for most of the time Siryn was on the island? I doubt they had the time or opportunity to become friends. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Oct 2004 06:11 pm    
By Dhall

Sure, but when did she become friends with say Shadowcat, or Moonstar, or Husk and Jubilee? 
I would consider Siryn to be more of an acquaintance for Lorna., same as the others I just mentioned. 

I think Siryn was invited to increase the number of single women around, thus making Lorna feel superior to them. That's probably the same reason that some of the others appear. 

Also, Some people clearly got invited for being around the mansion..... 

Dave H

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Posted: 30 Oct 2004 09:08 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

So when exactly did they have the time to get acquainted on Muir Island? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Oct 2004 10:48 am    
By Dhall

Perhaps after the Shadow King storyline was over, Behind the scenes in X-Factor 70. That's where Lorna gets aquianted with Madrox, Guido, etc. 

What I'm trying to say, is that there is a greater likelyhood of a connection between Lorna and Siryn, than say Lorna and Moonstar. I'm not implying that there's much of a connection. 

That's Not evidence, of course. 

What I am going by is just that there is a redhead with Siryn's hairstyle up in the front rows at the wedding, near the bridesmaids. Some of the women who were bridesmaids have never met Lorna (or have only met her in passing) before the previous few UX issues. 

So, if some of the bridesmaids were not chosen because of a connection to Lorna, but instead to fill out the number of bridesamids that Lorna wanted to have, it is NOT that implausable that Siryn was invited, particularily if she happened to be visting the mansion at the time. (I mean why else was Dani Moonstar invited?) 

Basically there is as much evidence for Siryn, as there is for Moonstar, or Shadowcat, hairstyle and hair color. It is certainly not impossible for her to be at the mansion at this time, so why not Siryn? 

Dave H

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Posted: 30 Oct 2004 05:58 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I'll check UX #52 when I get home, but it seems that we've got heavy odds favoring that Lorna's step-parents ARE named "Mr. and Mrs. Dane". 
<<<


In UX 52, when Iceman tells Lorna that she's adopted and that her natural parents died in a plane crash, it appears to be news to her. If so, she didn't previously know that she was adopted - in which case, logically, the adoptive parents must have been called Dane.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 30 Oct 2004 10:13 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, Paul. I was about to post something similar. 

David: 

Given that both bride AND groom served on X-Factor, it makes a great deal of sense to me that they'd invite their teammates -- and Forge and Quicksilver's presence backs up that hypothesis. Which is why I feel that the Rahne-looking and Val Cooper-looking characters have a good chance of actually being them, and why I'm assuming that Madrox is the only unnamed man at the bacahelor party. (Still, where's Guido?) 

But the reason that I think the curly-haired girl is Shadowcat is not JUST because she was a bridesmaid -- it's because she was ALSO at the bachelorette party. It seems to me that, being depicted at both events, she was intended to be a Somebody -- an actual character -- whereas the rest of the bridesmaids that DIDN'T attend the party were intended to be Anonymous Nobodies. 

(Granted, Shadowcat's presence IS odd. I can't offhand think of a time when she and Lorna were on the team together.) 

Moonstar's presence is odd too. As a matter of fact, in NM2 #2, she states that she "hasn't been back to the mansion for a while", or something similar. (And there's no good way to place NM2 #2 before UX #425.) And Xavier gives her a tour, stating that they've added several buldings as dormitories -- a fact Dani would probably be aware of if she'd been to the mansion for the wedding. 

To be honest, I wouldn't fight too hard to insist that it MUST BE either one of them -- only that it MIGHT be them. And "might be" isn't good enough, really -- they might also be some of Lorna's childhood friends with similar hairstyles. It might be prudent to strike both of them from the list of appearances until we can somehow confirm them. 

By that logic, we should likely strike "Siryn" too. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 30 Oct 2004 11:08 pm    
By Dhall

Jeph, 
I cannot argue with you there. The problem comes down to the fact that the art is meant to convey who these people are, and well it doesn't do the job. 

We have a situation where people who really know the X-Men cannot pick out who is supposed to be who in this comic. At least not to the standards that we would usually use. 

Unless we get a copy of the script, or a list from Chuck Austin of who is supposedly presnt, I don't know how to defintivly resolve this question. 

Could we have a listing for a character such as: 
UX 425 ? 

With the question mark meaning identity probable, but unconfirmed? 
It could be of great use for these type of indistinct crowd scenes.... 

Dave H.

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Thread 66

Posted: 01 Oct 2004 03:15 pm    Post subject: Ultimates Vol. 1 #1
By AaronRStanley

Ultimates Vol. 1 #1 

Published: March, 2002 

Written By: Mark Millar 
Drawn By: Bryan Hitch (p)/ Andrew Currie (i) 


Appearances: 
1945 
Captain America 
Bucky Barnes 
Kowalski 

2002 
Tony Stark 
Happy (?Hogan?) 


Brief Syopsis: 
There are two "stories" in this issue, one that is set in 1945, and one that is set in 2002 

Story A: 1945 
Captain America and Allied Forces are air-dropped onto a secret Nazi complex, in the North Atlantic, that houses a prototype hydrogen bomb. Captain America is able to detonate the bomb shortly after its launch, but is knocked into the frigid waters, where he remains for approximately 60 years. 

Story B: 2002 
Tony Stark is high atop Mount Everest, and tells his aides that he has been struck with a great notion/ idea (later revealed to be a new Iron Man suit. He tells "Happy" (possibly Happy Hogan?) that the board meets on Monday. 


References: 
1945 
This story MUST be set after the two flashback sequences in Ultimates Vol. 1 #11, as Captain America is lost for 60 years at the end of Story A, and thusly is inactive for that time. 

2002 
This story is set AFTER Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #4 and 5, but BEFORE Ultimates Vol. 2 #2, as Tony Stark was wearing what appears to be an older form of his Iron Man armour in the Ultimate Marvel Team-Up story, and after this story, is only over wearing the "new" armour. 


Flashback sequence 
As the first story involving Captain America is set in the past, I decided NOT to list it as a flashback, so much as a contemporary story, that is set years before the events in the second story. But for the sake of accuracy 


1945 
Captain America (first appearance, next in Ultimates Vol. 1 #2)) 
Bucky Barnes (first appearance, next in Ultimates Vol. 1 #3) 
Kowalski (first and last) 

Story A Synopsis: 1945 
Captain America and Allied Forces are air-dropped onto a secret Nazi complex, in the North Atlantic, that houses a prototype hydrogen bomb. Captain America is able to detonate the bomb shortly after its launch, but is knocked into the frigid waters, where he remains for approximately 60 years. 


References: 
1945 
This story MUST be set after the two flashback sequences in Ultimates Vol. 1 #11, as Captain America is lost for 60 years at the end of Story A, and thusly is inactive for that time. 



Before I post anymore Analysis', I would like to get some feedback on this analysis, in case how i analyze books needs to be altered at all, or if this one is acceptable. Currently, I do have ALL of Ultimates Vol. 1 analyzed, as well as the World Tour and Return of the King arcs from Ultimate X-Men. Ultimate X-Men will be held off until the entire series is done, and well be posted AFTER I have all of the Ultimate Vol. 1 series online. 

So, feedback, please. 




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Last edited by AaronRStanley on 04 Oct 2004 04:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 01 Oct 2004 05:56 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Your style is excellent. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Thread 67

Posted: 01 Oct 2004 07:48 pm    Post subject: Ultimates Vol. 1 #2
By AaronRStanley

Ultimates Vol. 1 #2 

Date: April, 2002 

Written by: Mark Millar 
Drawn By: Bryan Hitch (p)/ Andrew Currie (i) 


Appearances: 
Bruce Banner 
Wasp 
Giant Man 
Iron Man 
Nick Fury 
Jarvis 
Captain America 
Mr. Hogan 
Jason 


Brief Syopsis: 
Nick Fury meets Bruce Banner, and tells him that the President of the USA has decided to invest $150, 000, 000, 000 into a super-human defence program, and that Banner, Hank Pym, and Janet Pym, as well as assistants and staff, are beign moved to a new location, the Triskelion. 
Janet Pym and Hank Pym talk about the relocation, and how Tony Stark has decided to let Nick Fury have the Iron Man for the team. 
Hank Pym tries out the giant-man formula, which is a success. 
Captain America is found, and his body is shown as its beign thawed. 


References: 
Nick Fury and Bruce Banner have lunch at a restaurant overlooking Chelsea Piers, which Banner, when he was the Hulk, circa Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #2, 3, destroyed. Banner makes mention of not having any traces of the Hulk serum in his system for at least six weeks, and Nick Fury tells Banner if he needs ANOTHER six months of leave, to just say the word, implying that it is roughly 6 months since the events of Ultimate Marvel Team-Up #2, 3. 

Also, Hank Pym, Janet Pym, and Bruce Banner are moved from Pittsburgh, to the Triskelion, which is still under construction. A move of that size would take several days. Also, Hank Pym conducts his first test of the growth formula, and this is the first appearance of Pym as Giant-Man. 

Captain America is found, and the thawing of his body is begun. 


As always, feedback is welcome, and requested, if needed.
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Thread 68

Posted: 01 Oct 2004 08:20 pm    Post subject: Ultimates Vol. 1 #4
By AaronRStanley

Ultimates (Vol. 1) #4 

Date: June, 2002 

Written by: Mark Millar 
Drawn By: Bryan Hitch (p)/ Andrew Currie (i) 

Appearances: 
Bruce Banner 
Captain America 
Giant Man 
Wasp 
Iron Man 
Nick Fury 
Betty Ross 
Thor 
Freddie Prinze Jr. 
Shannon Elizabeth -- telecommunications screen only 
Larry King -- telecommunications screen only 

Brief Synopsis: 
Tony Stark in Space. The Ultimates do alot of nothing, until Banner mixes the Super-Soldier serum, and the Hulk serum, and injects it into himself. The team is assembled, a la the Avengers, and they go to put a beating on Banner. 

References: 
A month has occured between last issue, and the beginning of this issue, as detailed in Tony Stark's interview with Larry King. Tony Stark is in space, and has time to return.
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Thread 69

Posted: 01 Oct 2004 08:06 pm    Post subject: Ultimates Vol. 1 #3
By AaronRStanley

Ultimates (Vol. 1) #3 

Date: May, 2002 

Written by: Mark Millar 
Drawn By: Bryan Hitch (p)/ Andrew Currie (i) 

Appearances: 
Bruce Banner 
Giant Man 
Wasp 
Iron Man 
Captain America 
Nick Fury 
Bucky Barnes 
Gail Barnes 
Betty Ross 
Jarvis 

Brief Syopsis: 
Captain America revived, taken to meet Bucky Barnes, and shown the graves of his immediate family. 
Also, the Triskelion is now complete, and a gala event is held around the public unveiling of the Ultimates program. 

References: 
Captain America's body is completely thawed, so at least several hours have passed since the end of last issue. Also, Captain America is revivied, marking his first activity since the end of World War 2.
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Last edited by AaronRStanley on 04 Oct 2004 04:30 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: 01 Oct 2004 08:14 pm    
By AaronRStanley

Correction (yes, already) 

Betty Ross (???, next in Ultimates Vol. 1 #5)
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Posted: 01 Oct 2004 08:28 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

When correcting a message that has no replies, you should simply edit the original message, rather than replying to your own post. 


watching: radio free roscoe

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Thread 70

Posted: 01 Oct 2004 08:38 pm    Post subject: Ultimates Vol. 1 #5
By AaronRStanley

Ultimates (Vol. 1) #5 

Date: July, 2002 

Written by: Mark Millar 
Drawn By: Bryan Hitch (p)/ Andrew Currie (i) 

Appearances: 
Iron Man 
Captain America 
Giant Man 
Wasp 
Bruce Banner 
Betty Ross 
Freddie Prinze Jr. 
Nick Fury 
Thor 

Brief Synopsis: 
The Ultimates go to battle with Banner/ Hulk. Giant-Man gets beaten badly, and the Ultimates are on the verge of losing, when Thor saves the day, and the team rallies to beat Banner/ Hulk. 

References: 
Giant-Man makes mention of the fact that Banner has destroyed several blocks of New York in ten minutes, so, only ten minutes have passed since the end of last issue, up until the Ultimates meet the Hulk in battle.
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Thread 71

Posted: 02 Oct 2004 04:30 pm    Post subject: Ultimates Vol. 1 #6
By AaronRStanley

Ultimates (Vol. 1) #6 

Date: August, 2002 

Written by: Mark Millar 
Drawn By: Bryan Hitch (p)/ Andrew Currie (i) 

(Pages 1 to 5) Appearances: 
Nick Fury 
Betty Ross 
Bruce Banner 
Iron Man 
Captain America 
Thor 
Giant-Man 

(Pages 6 to 23) Appearances: 
Nick Fury 
Wasp 
Thor 
Captain America 
Tony Stark 
Jarvis 
Wasp 
Giant-Man 

Brief Synopsis: 
The Ultimates deal with the aftermath of the battle with the Hulk. Wasp and Giant-Man have a domestic incident, with Hank assaulting Janet, and causing her to be hospitalized next issue. Captain America, Thor and Iron Man have dinner together. 

References: 
Tony Stark, while greeting Thor and Captain America, makes mention of the Hulk fight "a few weeks back". This clearly marks a split in the story, between pages 5 and 6. Also, since this is a point of time where Giant-Man is still part of the team, it means that the Ultimates appearance in Ultimate Adventures 3, 4, must go in here, as from issue #7 to issue #13 of Ultimates, Giant-Man isn't part of the team, and Ultimate Nightmare appeares to be the first time Pym is seen by the team since the domestic assault of the Wasp.
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Last edited by AaronRStanley on 04 Oct 2004 04:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 02 Oct 2004 10:20 pm    
By PopularLoser

AaronRStanley wrote: 
Also, since this is a point of time where Giant-Man is still part of the team, it means that the Ultimates appearance in Ultimate Adventures 3, 4, must go in here, as from issue #7 to issue #13 of Ultimates, Giant-Man isn't part of the team, and Ultimate Nightmare appeares to be the first time Pym is seen by the team since the domestic assault of the Wasp. 


Actually, I thought Pym's next appearance with the team was in the early issues of the Ultimate Six Mini-series. And I would think Ultimate Nightmare would come after just about everything else in the Ultimate Universe, but only time will tell. 

On a slightly related note, would an Ultimate Marvel Calender help at all in the chronologizing of the Ultimate Universe?
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Posted: 02 Oct 2004 11:42 pm    Post subject: I'm sure your correct, but sadly...
By AaronRStanley

I completely forgot about Ultimate Six. Also, these Analysis are still an ongoing thing, so they might have to be extensively edited, which is somewhat unfortunate in that they are posted. For one, ihate posting information I'm not 100% on, but on the plus side, this is just a rough analysis for now, all in the hopes of helping the MCP in its Ultimate Universe area.
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Thread 72

Posted: 03 Oct 2004 11:31 pm    Post subject: X-Men: True Friends 1-3
By Dhall

X-Men: True Friends 1 

*Events in this story take place prior to current continuity.* 
(It says so, right on the inside front cover!) 

September 1999 
Writer: Chris Claremont 
Pencils: Rick Leonardi 


Characters: 
Shadowcat 
Phoenix III 

In 1936: 
Lilibet (Princess Elizabeth) 
The Bean-nighe 
Alasdhair Kinross 
Mrs. Fraser (Kinross housekeeper) 
Lady Windermeres butler 
Various Nazis 
Baron Wolfgang Von Strucker 
Geist 
Lady Regina Windermere 
Shadow King-BTS 



Note: Pages 4-9 happen before pages 1-3 

X-Men: True Friends 2 

*Events in this story take place prior to current continuity.* 

September 1999 
Writer: Chris Claremont 
Pencils: Rick Leonardi 

Characters: 
Shadowcat 
Phoenix III 

From 1936: 
Shadow King 
Baron Wolfgang Von Strucker 
Geist 
Lady Regina Windermere 
Lilibet (Princess Elizabeth) 
Alasdhair Kinross 
The Bean-nighe 


From Who knows what year: 
Wolverine 

Note: Logan has never met Kitty, but he has admantium claws, and goes by the name Wolverine. He didnt have these claws in 1936, so he must be time traveling too (even though this is never stated in the story.) 

He says  Some people I work with called in a marker, said thered be trouble, young folks needin help. Nazis to be taught a lesson. He is working with Destiny and Mystique (of 1936) in the next issue. 

X-Men: True Friends 3 

*Events in this story take place prior to current continuity.* 

September 1999 
Writer: Chris Claremont 
Pencils: Rick Leonardi 

Characters: 

Phoenix III 
Shadowcat 
Wolverine 
Stuart, Brig. Alysande 
Queen Elizabeth II 
Mr. Mostyn-Williams 


From 1936: 
Shadow King 
Baron Wolfgang Von Strucker 
Geist 
Lilibet (Princess Elizabeth) 
Alasdhair Kinross 
Destiny 
Mystique (disguised as Mr. Raven) 
Mr. Carmody 
Mrs. Carmody 


From ???: 
Wolverine 

Note: Destiny says  Consider Katherine Pryde the right instrument in the right place at the right timefor the wrong purpose. Wolverines claws are definitely admantium, several decades too early. 

Pages 29 and 30 are printed in the wrong order. 

Kitty and Rachel have no particular reaction to seeing Logan alive at the end of this issue. They think the X-Men are dead, so this is strange. 


Plot: Kitty and Rachel go to a pub, rent a room for a night, and get sucked back into the past through a stone circle, ending up in Scotland circa 1936. 

Theres some fairly ridiculous goings-on, who knew that Edinburgh was such a hotbed of Nazi activity? 

Kitty falls for Alasdhair Kinross (who is presumably Moiras ancestor.) His distant cousin, Lilibet (really Princess Elizabeth, because the Royal family would just let her stay unguarded in a castle with Alasdhair and his housekeeper!) is also along. 

They go to the neighboring place to try to find out what happened to Rachel. Rachel was taken by the Shadow King. He is working with Nazis, Strucker (who gets into every WW II related comic) and Geist (from the W2 series.) 
There is a nazi plot to put Lady Windermere on the throne. 

Kitty and Alasdhair escape from the castle, but Lilibet has been kidnapped(as has Rachel.) They take a plane toward Edinburgh, but are attacked by Phoenix, under the Shadow Kings control. 

They escape (shocker!) and go to Edinburgh, to a Nazi fancy dress party, where they meet the rest of the Nazi members of the cast. Kitty searched around, and finds Lilibet and Rachel in trunks. The Shadow King comes looking for her, so she cannot rescue them. The Nazis turn Alasdhair over to the Shadow King for some kind of sacrifice, which is supposed to kill off the royal family. Kitty ruins it, and Farouk has to dissipate the energies unleashed by killing most of the Nazis present, as well as Lady Windermere. Kitty and Alasdhair escape (from another castle) and pass out in the back of a Nazi truck. The Shadow King commands the Nazis to kill the two of them, so the Nazis decide to take them down by the docks and do it. Alasdhair wakes up, fights the Nazis, the truck goes in the Firth. Logan saves them 

Rachel tries to fight off Farouks control, but fails. Lilibet is left unguarded, and escapes, Kitty decides she wants to go kill Hitler. Logan, Destiny, and Mystique talk about how this would screw things up, but that it is important that it be Kittys choice. Rachel hunts down and recaptures Lilibet. Logan wounds Geist. Alasdhair proposes to Kitty, Kitty and Logan go to fight the Shadow King. 
There is some nonsense about the Sword of Scone, and such showing who the rightful heir to the throne is, but well ignore that. 
Logan fights Strucker, who surrenders rather than being killed. Rachel breaks free, and she and Kitty fight the Shadow King, and seemingly, but not really killing him, they wake up in the present day. 

Going downstairs, they run into Logan and Alysande. Neither Kitty or Ray act surprised to see Logan alive. QE II gives them a wrap up of what happened to all the major characters from this series. Apparently, Alasdhair dies in WW II as a pilot. 




Chronology Notes: 

X-Men: True Friends was originally written and penciled in 1990, and sat on the shelf until 1999, when it was pulled from the archives and published. It was originally going to be published as Excalibur Special Edition 3 and 4. 

This story is referenced in Excalibur 22 (during the Cross-Time Caper) so it has to come before that issue, which also means that it has to come before the caper, and since Alysande appears in it, it has to come after Excalibur 9 and 10, where they meet her. 

The reference in #22 is this: Phoenix is talking about an encounter she had with the Shadow King in her past, as a kid. The Shadow King said: At last my precious a moment Ive been eagerly anticipating since before your parents were born. Rachels caption box says I didnt understand what he meant, then. The editorial box refers confused readers to Excalibur Special Edition 3 and 4, on sale this spring and summer, and were never published. 

X-Men: True Friends makes sense out of this reference, as if Phoenix encountered Farouk in the past, then he has been waiting for revenge since before her parents were born. 



This series makes no sense unless you assume that Wolverine was also time-traveling. 

Logan appears in the past, sometime after he gets the admantium, probably before he joins the X-Men, definitely before he meets Kitty. 

Im inclined to push this into the post-Weapon X period where, while he was mainly working for Hudson, he still went off and did odd jobs for various contacts on occasion. 

The rest of the characters (besides Logan, Kitty, and Rachel) are all from 1936, and shouldnt present too many problems for us. 




Queen Elizabeth II 
*XM:TF 1 
*XM:TF 2 
*XM:TF 3 
CB 37 
CB 38 
CB 39 
SSM&CB 231/2 
SSM&CB 232/2-BTS 
*XM:TF 3 

Phoenix III 
XCAL 11 
*XM:TF 1 
*XM:TF 2 
*XM:TF 3 
XCAL 11 
XCAL:MM-FB 
XCAL:MM 
XCAL 11 
XCAL 20 
XCAL 11 
XCAL 12 

Shadowcat 
XCAL 11 
*XM:TF 1 
*XM:TF 2 
*XM:TF 3 
XCAL 11 
XCAL:MM-FB 
XCAL:MM 
XCAL 11 
XCAL 20 
XCAL 11 
XCAL 12 

Stuart, Brig. Alysande 
XCAL 10 
*XM:TF 3 
XCAL 11 
XCAL:MM 
XCAL 11 
XCAL 27 

The Bean-nighe 
*XM:TF 1 
*XM:TF 2 

Windermere, Lady 
*XM:TF 1 
*XM:TF 2 

Alasdhair Kinross 
*XM:TF 1 
*XM:TF 2 
*XM:TF 3 

Mrs. Fraser (Kinross housekeeper) 
*XM:TF 1 

Mr. Mostyn-Williams 
*XM:TF 3 

Mystique 

XU 4-FB 
*XM:TF 3 
S&M 1-FB 
S&M 2-FB 
S&M 3-FB 

Destiny 
*XM:TF 3 
S&M 1-FB 
S&M 2-FB 
S&M 3-FB 

Shadow King 
*XM:TF 1-BTS 
*XM:TF 2 
*XM:TF 3 
DPOOL 2-FB-BTS 
{UX 117-FB} 
NM 34-FB 

Baron Strucker 
(Im kind of guessing here, its 1936 so its before the war) 
GAM3 10 
HMAG 23/2 
*XM:TF 1 
*XM:TF 2 
*XM:TF 3 
XFOR 64 
UX 268-FB 

Geist 
*XM:TF 1 
*XM:TF 2 
*XM:TF 3 
W2 19-FB 
W2 18-FB 
{W2 17} 


Wolverine (He must be time-traveling, its the only way to explain the admantium in 1936.) 


BFF:BGL 1 
BFF:BGL 2 
BFF:BGL 3 
L:SS 
*XM:TF 2 
*XM:TF 3 
AF SPECIAL 
.. 
UX 243 
XF 39 
*XM:TF 3 
UX@ 13/2 
PWJ 6 
PWJ 7 


The placement for the earlier apps. is arbitrary, I know, but it must be after Weapon X, and after the Hudsons take in Logan, so that hes not feral anymore. Around the period that I placed these, Logan goes off on a few missions that have nothing to do with Dept. H, so this is a good place (but not the only choice) for these adventures.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Oct 2004 05:27 am    
By Enda80

The Bean-nighe 
*XM:TF 1 
*XM:TF 2 
*DRUID 2 

The Bean-nighe also appeared in Druid#2, in the present. 

............................................................................. 
http://blaklion.best.vwh.net/timeline597.html 

1937 
======================== 
Baron Strucker is sent to assasinate an American senator in New York, but Dominic Fortune stops him. [The Hulk! #23/2.] 

Baron Strucker 
(Im kind of guessing here, its 1936 so its before the war) 
GAM3 10 
*XM:TF 1 
*XM:TF 2 
*XM:TF 3 
HMAG 23/2 
XFOR 64 
UX 268-FB

			*	*	*

Thread 73

Posted: 05 Oct 2004 07:59 pm    Post subject: Ultimate Fantastic Four #11
By AaronRStanley

Ultimate Fantastic Four #11 

Published: November, 2004 

Written by: Warren Ellis 
Drawn by: Stuart Immonen (p)/ Wade Von Grawbadger (i) 

Appearances: 
Johnny Storm 
Sue Storm 
Ben Grimm 
Reed Richards 
Victor Van Damme 

Brief Synopsis: 
The "Fantastic Four" are in the fantastic-car, makign there way to Europe to try and talk to Van Damme befor the US Army can capture him. Van Damme muses bout how the FF were also mutated, and Van Damme also prepares the people of the shantytown he resides in to protect him. The FF arrive, get blown out of the sky, and get beaten by Van Damme, with the exception of Reed Richards. 

References: 
None really needed, or made. This issue occurs immediately after the previous issue.
_________________
Expand your mind

			*	*	*

Thread 74

Posted: 05 Oct 2004 08:24 pm    Post subject: Are there any issues of Generation X you need analysis on?
By arthur_phillip_dent

I have every regular issue and most of the specials. I checked the Closing the Gap link on your site and saw that you have some issues listed. On the other hand, these boards say that you only have a few things left to do on the gap. I don't want to do something you don't need. 

If one of the mods wants to give me an assignment, I'll get to work right away.
_________________
Eagles may soar but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2004 09:42 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

We don't really do assignments here; we're not that kind of project. If you have something to contribute, then just...contribute. As for Generation X, I think all of the issues have been analyzed, but you're welcome to go behind us and let us know, if you think we've made any mistakes. 


watching: vice-presidential debate

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2004 09:51 pm    
By arthur_phillip_dent

I'm still new. Where can I read the other analysis?
_________________
Eagles may soar but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2004 09:59 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Until about six months ago, the great majority of the analyses were done privately. More recently, Issue Analyses have been popping up right here, in this forum. Again, for the Generation X issues specifically, you can't read the analyses themselves, but you can read the results of the analyses in the Project itself. If someone appears in one of the books that we don't have listed, or if you disagree with the chronological placement of those appearances, let us know. Note though, that in both cases, you should post corrections in the relevant forum (in this case, the Marvel Universe forum)--not here in the Issue Analysis forum. 


watching: vice-presidential debate

			*	*	*

Thread 75

Posted: 05 Oct 2004 11:12 pm    Post subject: She-Hulk v3 #1
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Pages 1-2 
Flashback. Jen Walters studies and graduates from college. Appearances by Jen and Morris Walters 

Pages 3- 10 
Jen wakes up and heads to the courtroom. Her case is interuppted by an Avengers call, and the team heads into space to battle MODOK. Appearances by She-Hulk, Mika (an underwear model), Jarvis, Judge Gibson, Holden Holliway, Mal Book, Capt. America, Wasp, Iron Man, Hercules, Vision, Scarlet Witch, MODOK, Blizzard, various Hydra agents. 

Pages 11-12 
New day. Jen in court and party afterwards. Appearances by She-Hulk, Mal Book, Judge Gibson, Mika 

Pages 13+ 
New day. Jen gets kicked out of the Avengers Mansion, gets fired from work, and is rehired by Holliway. Appearances by She-Hulk, Capt. America, Wasp, Mika, Blake Tower, Mal Book, Blizzard, Holden Holliway.

			*	*	*

Thread 76

Posted: 06 Oct 2004 08:15 am    Post subject: She-Hulk v3 #3
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Pages 1-2 
Occurs "weeks ago" at Hammer Aeronautics. Bailey Briggs dies under mysterious means. Appearances by Bailey Briggs, Angie Cryer, Maxwell Newton. 

Page 3 
Holliway's agency takes Briggs' case. Appearances by Max Newton, Dr. Strange, Holden Holliway, Mal Book, Bailey Brigg's ghost, Mr. Quarrel 

Pages 4-10 
"Friday Night" Jen and Mal finish up some paperwork, then Ben helps Jen move into her new home from the Avengers Mansion. Page 8 includes a flashback to Augustus' college days where he was saved once by Spider-Man. Appearances by She-Hulk, Mal Book, Thing, Augustus Pugliese, Jarvis. 

Pages 11+ 
Begins Monday morning. Jen goes to court, then returns to the scene of the crime to collect more evidence, before finally watching as Briggs' ghost is jailed. There are a couple of gaps in time here, but the narration says there's only "hours" between scenes indicating that this all occurs in one day. Also of note is that Ben references having died and come back to life recently. Appearances by She-Hulk, Mal Book, Judge Phillips, Max Newton, Thing, Angie Cryer, Bailey Briggs' ghost, Dr. Strange

			*	*	*

Thread 77

Posted: 06 Oct 2004 08:34 am    Post subject: She-Hulk v3 #4
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Page 1 
"Tuesday Night." Jen introduces Augustus to Spidey. Appearances by She-Hulk, Augustus Pugsliese, Spider-Man. 

Page 2 
"Wednesday" Jameson is subpeonaed. Appearances by J. Jonah Jameson, Gloria Grant, Ditto (as Clint Eastwood). 

Page 3, panels 1-4 
"Thursday" Spidey and MJ talk. Appearances by Spider-Man, Mary Jane Watson Parker 

Page 3, panel 5 - Page 4 
"Friday" Jen and Augustus work out. Appearances by She-Hulk, Augustus Pugsliese, Awesome Andy. 

Page 5 
Scorpion rants. A newspaper is shown with the date, "Wednesday, June 23, 2004". Appearances by Scorpion, Alistair Smythe. 

Pages 6-18 
"June 24th, 2004...The case of Spider-Man v. the Daily Bugle." Appearances by She-Hulk, Augustus Pugsliese, John Jameson, J. Jonah Jameson, Betty Brant, Robbie Robertson, Mr. Bachman, Spider-Man, Whiz Kid (from the GLK&H mailroom), Scorpion, Ditto (disguised as MJ) 

Page 19 
"June 25th, 2004. Trial Day Two" Appearances by Spider-Man, Augustus Pugsliese. 

Page 20 
"The Following Morning" Spidey swings by GLK&H. Appearances by Spider-Man, J. Jonah Jameson, Augustus Pugsliese, Mr. Bachman, She-Hulk 

Page 21 
A newspaper story evidently talks about the settlement, suggesting that it's the day after page 20. Appearances by Spider-Man, J. Jonah Jameson (both in chicken suits!), Augustus Pugsliese, She-Hulk

			*	*	*

Thread 78

Posted: 06 Oct 2004 11:26 am    Post subject: She-Hulk v3 #6
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Pages 1-2 
Basically, we follow Awesome Andy througout one day. He wakes up, goes to work, chats with coworkers, has to stay late, etc. This must occur out of sequence with the main story, as we'll see shortly. Appearances by Awesome Andy, Mal Book, Ditto (Andy's sleeping roommate) 

Pages 3-20 
Picks up from the end of #5. Jen and Holden take Southpaw (and many other inmates unintentionally) back to GLK&H. Yellowjacket is already there arguing with Mal. The mini-villains enlarged themselves slightly and run rampant through the building. Jen, Hank and Andy kick their collective butt. Jen references her wishing to discuss her termination from "yesterday", so presumably this ends in the wee hours of the morning since we really haven't had a break since #5. Appearances by She-Hulk, Holden Holliway, Southpaw, Yellowjacket, Mal Book, Awesome Andy, Thinker (eventually revealed to be a robot), Vermin, Tiger Shark, Rhino, Grey Gargoyle, Figment, Sandman, Absorbing Man, Power Keg, Eight-Ball, Wrecker, Piledriver, Bulldozer, Thunderball, Vector, X-Ray, Vapor, Ironclad, Electro, Dragon Man, Albert Cleary 

Page 21 
Andy has the morning off, so evidently this is at least the day after when Jen and Holden first went to The Big House. This might, however, be within the same 24-hour period as the previous page. Pug makes a joke about it being "Wednesday." Appearances by Augustus Pugsliese, Mal Book, Awesome Andy, Ditto, Thinker's robotic head

			*	*	*

Thread 79

Posted: 06 Oct 2004 09:06 am    Post subject: She-Hulk v3 #5
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Pages 1-2 
A big fight scene between Southpaw and the New Warriors. Appearances by Southpaw, Speedball, Namorita, Night Thrasher, Nova, Turbo (the latest, whichever number she happens to be) 

Pages 3-7 
Starts a half hour earlier, but soon catches up with pages 1-2. Pug and Jen meet with a client, then Jen goes on her date with John Jameson (the date was arranged last issue). Nova comes crashing through their date (from the fight on page 1) and She-Hulk stops a bus from killing someone. Appearances by She-Hulk, Augutus Pugsliese, John Jameson, Nova, Mal Book, Holden Holliway, and a client named Mr. Bobo. 

Pages 8-9 
The Thinker rants in "Pym Experimental Penitentiary Number One" nicknamed "The Big House" -- a prison for superhumans where the criminals are shrunk to the size of mice. Appearances by Thinker, Southpaw, Electro, Rhino (yelling from off-camera), Vermin, Sandman, Eight-Ball, Scarecrow, Figment 

Page 10 
Sunset. John is wearing the same shirt from page 3, so it's the same day. Appearances by She-hulk, John Jameson, Holden Holliway. 

Pages 11-21 
"A little later..." Jen and Holden visit the Big House and several criminals escape. Appearances by She-Hulk, Holden Holliway, Wrecker, Piledriver, Thunderball, Bulldozer, Thinker, Mandrill, Sandman, Vermin, Absorbing Man, Southpaw, Grey Gargoyle, Dragon Man, Rhino, Vector, Scarecrow, Scorpion, Eight-Ball, Electro, Figment, X-Ray, Whirlwind, Tiger Shark, Powder Keg, Silencer

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Oct 2004 12:08 pm    
By lkseitz

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Pages 8-9 
The Thinker rants in "Pym Experimental Penitentiary Number One" nicknamed "The Big House" -- a prison for superhumans where the criminals are shrunk to the size of mice. Appearances by Thinker ... 

Pages 11-21 
"A little later..." Jen and Holden visit the Big House and several criminals escape. Appearances by ... Thinker...  
<<<


Let's not forget to reference that this isn't the Thinker, but a robot as revealed in #6.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Thread 80

Posted: 05 Oct 2004 11:22 pm    Post subject: She-Hulk v3 #2
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Pages 1-13 
First day of Jen's new job: the Monday after the end of #1. Page eight includes a flashback to Danger Man's origin "a couple of weeks ago." Appearances by She-Hulk, Danger Man, Holden Holliway, Stu Cicero, Ditto, Awesome Andy (aka Mad Thinker's Awesome Android), Dr. Strange, Mal Book, Nicholas Wilkes, Scarlet Witch, Wasp, Jarvis, Norma Jermain, Tina Jermain 

Pages 14-20 
The next day. Jen and Dan talk. Appearances by She-Hulk, Holden Holliway, Norma Jermain, Danger Man, Tina Jermain 

Page 21 
Sometime after the suit is settled. Appearances by She-Hulk, Holden Holliway

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Oct 2004 06:38 pm
By shandrakor

Regarding page 21: 
Specifically, it is "Weeks of legal maneuvering" later

			*	*	*

Thread 81

Posted: 06 Oct 2004 10:59 pm    Post subject: She-Hulk v3 #7
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Pages 1-2 
On the planet Skardon. A professional fight between the Champion and Beta Ray Bill. Appearances by Beta Ray Bill, Champion, Gamora, Pip, Adam Warlock 

Pages 3-6 
"A few days" after the end of #6. Jen and Holden argue about Southpaw at GLK&H. Appearances by She-Hulk, Southpaw, Holden Holliway, Awesome Andy, Mal Book, Augustus Pugsliese 

Pages 7-8 
Continuation of the fight from page 2. Appearances by Champion, Beta Ray Bill (unconscious), Adam Warlock, Pip, Gamora, Gladiator 

Pages 9-11 
Continuation from pg 6. Jen is transported to the Star Chamber. Appearances by She-Hulk, Holden Holliway, Southpaw, Living Tribunal 

Pages 12-13 panel 2 
Continuation from pg 8. Appearances by Gladiator, Champion, Gamora, Pip, Adam Warlock 

Pages 13 panel 3 - 20 panel 4 
Jen presides over the Star Chamber's Cosmic Claims Court. Appearances by She-Hulk, Southpaw, Rigel Type Zeta 9, Emporer Merkaa, Empress Merkaa, Prince Rollo of Sloggs, Uatu, Zoma (another Watcher), Qyre (yet another Watcher) 

Pages 20 panel 5 - 21 panel 3 
The end of the fight on Skardon. Appearances by Gamora, Adam Warlock, Champion, Pip 

Page 21 panel 4 
Jen gets her next assignment about some planet called Skardon. Appearances by SheHulk, Southpaw, Rigel Type Zeta 9

			*	*	*

Thread 82

Posted: 07 Oct 2004 06:24 pm    Post subject: Cable 101-104
By Dhall

Cable 101-104 

Plot: Cable blows up a virus lab, and a cloning facility and gets involved in the latest round of Balkan conflict. Its filled with a bunch of characters that we will never likely see again. As characters who only have a first name dont get MCP listings, I will list them for the character section of this analysis, and ignore them for chronology purposes. Im not sure what our policy is for people who only have last names and are unlikely to show up again. 

Note: It is two Hundred days since 9/11 (In Cable 104 we see film footage of the twin towers on fire, with the voiceover giving us the amount of time that has passed.) 

Listings: 

Cable 
C2 97 
C2 98 
DPOOL3 61 
*C2 101 
*C2 102 
*C2 103 
*C2 104 

Cuzco, Inza (Note shes in C2 97-100, but is only given a last name in this storyline.) 
*C2 97 
*C2 98 
(*C2 99, when analyzed) 
(*C2 100, when analyzed) 
*C2 104-BTS 

* Goldberg, Ruben 
*C2 101 
*C2 103 
*C2 104 

* Hoyle, Eddie 
*C2 101 
*C2 102 
*C2 103 
*C2 104 


All of the other characters either have only first names, or last names and a title. None of them are really important enough to list, and will likely not show up again. 

If we list characters with only last names and titles then: 


Dr Cvetkovski 
*C2 101 
*C2 102 
*C2 103 

Dr. Gani 
*C2 101 
*C2 102 
*C2 103 
*C2 104 

Dr Yacoupi 
*C2 101 
*C2 102 
*C2 103 
*C2 104 

Popov, General 
*C2 101 
*C2 102 
*C2 103 
*C2 104 

Mikael, Father 
*C2 102 


Full list of characters: 

101 
Characters: 
Cable 
Eddie Hoyle 
Reuben Goldberg 
Dr Cvetkovski 
Viktoria 
Zlatko 
General Popov 
Major Winchester 
Dr. Gani 
Dr Yacoupi 
Fadili, 
Samir 
Three years ago : 
Dr. Gani 
Sofia 
Mrs. Gani 
102 
Characters: 
Cable 
Viktoria 
Eddie Hoyle 
Dr Cvetkovski 
Zlatko 
General Popov 
Dr. Gani 
Dr Yacoupi 
Samir 
Ana, clone of Ganis sister 
Sali, Helen, and several more unnamed clones 
Father Mikael 
Anton 
103 
Characters: 
Cable 
Viktoria 
Eddie Hoyle 
Reuben Goldberg 
Dr Cvetkovski 
Zlatko 
General Popov 
Dr. Gani 
Dr Yacoupi 
Samir 
Fadili 
Ana 
several unnamed clones 
104 
Characters: 
Cable 
Viktoria 
Dr. Yacoupi 
Dr. Gani 
Samir 
Sali and Ana clones 
Rebel soldiers and unnamed clones 
Antarctic Engineers 
Communal Leader 
Eddie Hoyle 
General Poplov 
Reuben Goldberg 
Macedonian Second Division Soldiers 
Inza Cuzco (Peruvian terrorist from Cable 98-100)  BTS (escaping from custody in news report) 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Oct 2004 08:12 pm    Post subject: Cable 105
By Dhall

Cable 105 

July 2002 

Plot: Cable befriends a mutant boy in Rio de Janiero, and finds an arena where mutsntas fight to the death. 

Characters: 
Cable 

Xande (mutant kid) 
Caralho, Marcelo, Paolo (soccer playing kids) 

Piranha, Thiago 
Jararaca, Juliana 

Listings: 

Cable 
C2 97 
C2 98 
C2 99 
C2 100 
C2 100/2 
DPOOL3 61 
C2 101 
C2 102 
C2 103 
C2 104 
*C2 105 
BHOOD 8 

Piranha, Thiago 
*C2 105 

Jararaca, Juliana 
*C2 105

			*	*	*

Thread 84

Posted: 08 Oct 2004 04:00 pm    Post subject: Wolverine2 173-174
By Dhall

173 
Characters: 
First story : 
Wolverine 
Guardian, Shaman 
Heather Hudson 
Cyclops, Nightcrawler 
Beast  BTS (putting Nightcrawler on life support) 
Yukio 
Amiko 
Omega Red 
Lady Deathstrike 
Sabretooth 
Director (Malcolm Colcord) 
Mr. Sinister (as Dr. Windsor) 
Brent Jackson 
Leech 

Second story : 
Aurora, Puck, Sasquatch, Snowbird 
Director, Brent Jackson 


Plot: First Story: Logan is still up in Canada with Shaman. Lady Deathstike and Omega Red are attacking Logans closest friends: Nightcrawler, The Hudsons, Yukio and Amiko. The Director is giving Sinister (as Dr. Windsor) a tour of the Weapon X facility. The MPC (Mutant power cannon) with Leech in it, goes off, targeting Logan, who loses his powers. One weird line in this with Kurt saying that his days as a man of the cloth are behind him. He must be having a crisis of faith about becoming a priest, at this point, but must later change his mind. Heather is not wearing her Vindicator suit, because she is pregnant. 

Second Story: Shaman puts Aurora (who is mentally damaged after the fight in W2 172) on an ambulance to be taken to a care facility. When he gets the word that the Hudsons plane has gone down (in story one) he leaps out of the ambulance, and goes after them. Meanwhile the Director has some Weapon X guys attack the van, and kidnap Aurora. 



174 
Characters: 
Wolverine 
Yukio 
Amiko 
Omega Red 
Lady Deathstrike 
Sabretooth 
Director, Brent Jackson, Garrison Kane 

In flashbacks : 
Beast, Cyclops, Nightcrawler 
Guardian 
Heather Hudson 

Flashbacks: 1)Beast and Cyclops pull Nightcrawler out of the water. 
2) Nightcrawler is on the examining table at the mansion. 
3) Guardian (wearing his suit) flies Heather to safety after the plane crash. 

Plot: It is the anniversary of Marikos death. Logan lays a flower on her grave, then goes to visit Yukio. Her spine is injured, and she asks Logan that if it cant be put right, to kill her. Lady Deathstrike has carved instructions for Logan to go to the Bellagio hotel in Las Vegas. Kane finds out that Sabretooth was the one who tapped into the codes and fired the MPC. Agent Jackson mouths off to the director. He tries to start a fight, but is prevented due to a chip the Director had implanted in him, that prevents him attacking a superior. This is standard Weapon X issue. Logan lands at the hotel, and fight Lady Deathstrike, and Omega Red. Since he doesnt have his powers, he borrowed an extra (partial functional) Guardian suit from Mac. Although Logan does well, without his mutant powers he is no match, and the two eventually overcome him. He wakes up in a suite, where Sabretoooth has Amiko tied up. 


Listings: 

Wolverine 
W2 @2001 
W2 @2001/2 
W2 170 
W2 171 
W2 172 
*W2 173 
*W2 174 
(prob. W2 175-176 when analyzed) 
X 114 
X 115 
X 116 


Guardian 
GENX 58 
W2 171 
W2 172 
*W2 173 
*W2 174-FB 

Shaman 
W2 143 
W2 171 
W2 172 
*W2 173 

Heather Hudson 
W2 142 
W2 143 
*W2 173 
*W2 174-FB 
BP3 42 
BP3 43 

Cyclops 
CYCLOPS 4 
UX 394 
*W2 174-FB 
*W2 173 
X 114 
X 115 
X 116 

Nightcrawler 
NC2 3 
NC2 4 
*W2 173 
*W2 174-FB 
*W2 173-BTS 
UX 395 
UX 396 
UX 397 

Beast 
XX 3 
CYCLOPS 1 
ICE2 1 (moved) 
*W2 174-FB 
*W2 173-BTS 
X 114 
X 115 
X 116 

Yukio 
W2 152 
W2 153 
W2 158-BTS 
*W2 173 
*W2 174 

Amiko 
W2 153 
W2 158 
*W2 173 
*W2 174 
WXISLE 1 

Omega Red 
X:L 4 
UX 380 
W2 170 
*W2 173 
*W2 174 

Lady Deathstrike 
W2 114 
CA3 1 
X '00 
W2 171 
*W2 173 
*W2 174 

Sabretooth 
DPOOL3 60 
DPOOL3 61 
W2 170 
W2 171 
*W2 173 
*W2 174 

Director (Malcolm Colcord) 
WX2:AGENTZERO 
DPOOL3 57 
DPOOL3 58 
DPOOL3 60 
*W2 173 
*W2 173/2 
*W2 174 

Mr. Sinister (as Dr. Windsor) 
UX 380 
GAM3 15 
X 102-FB 
XU 30/2 
*W2 173 

Brent Jackson 
DPOOL3 59 
DPOOL3 60 
DPOOL3 61 
*W2 173 
*W2 173/2 
*W2 174 

Leech 
GENX 60 
GENX 68 
GENX 69-BTS 
*W2 173 

Weapon X II/ Garrison Kane 
C2 39 
W2 142 
W2 143 
WX2:AGENTZERO 
*W2 174 

Aurora 
W2 142 
W2 143 
UX 379 
W2 171 
W2 172 
*W2 173/2 

Puck 
AF2 20 
W2 142 
W2 143 
GENX 58 
W2 171 
W2 172 
*W2 173/2 


Sasquatch 
W2 142 
W2 143 
W2 143/2 
GENX 58 
W2 171 
W2 172 
*W2 173/2 

Snowbird 
W2 143 
W2 143/2 
GENX 58 
W2 171 
W2 172 
*W2 173/2

			*	*	*

Thread 85

Posted: 07 Oct 2004 11:29 pm    Post subject: Weapon X: The Draft: Agent Zero 1
By Dhall

Weapon X: The Draft: Agent Zero 1 
October 2002 
Plot: Agent Zero has been brought in dying, by Sabretooth. The Director and Brent Jackson offer him a choice, join the Weapon X program and theyll save his life, or die. Of course he joins. They give him some upgrades. He sits in on a meeting including Copycat, Kane, Mesmero, Sabretooth, Sauron, Wild Child. The Director sends him out on some minor missions, then gives him an anti-metal bullet and sends him off to kill Logan. Hes not able to do it. It turns out the bullet was a fake, and the Director was using this mission to break down Agent Zeros psyche. 
Spoiler: Agent Zero is Maverick, as we know from later issues of Weapon X. 

Characters: 
Agent Zero (Maverick) 
Copycat, Kane, Mesmero, Sabretooth, Sauron, Wild Child 
The Director 
Agent Brent Jackson 
Dr. Duncan and Dr. Zira 
Wolverine 

Note: Since Copycat is in this issue, it has to come before Deadpool 57-60. 

Listings: 

Maverick (Agent Zero) 
MAV2 12 
W2 163 
W2 164-BTS 
W2 166 
*WX2:AGENTZERO 


Copycat 
DPOOL3 55 
DPOOL3 56 
*WX2:AGENTZERO 
DPOOL3 58 
DPOOL3 59 

Weapon X II/ Garrison Kane 
C2 39 
W2 142 
W2 143 
*WX2:AGENTZERO 

Mesmero 
X 0.5 
*WX2:AGENTZERO 
DPOOL3 57 
DPOOL3 61 


Sabretooth 
W2 160 
W2 162 
W2 164 
W2 165 
W2 166 
*WX2:AGENTZERO 
DPOOL3 57 
DPOOL3 58 
DPOOL3 59 
DPOOL3 60 
DPOOL3 61 

Sauron 
UX 356 
*WX2:AGENTZERO 
DPOOL3 57 
DPOOL3 60 
DPOOL3 61 

Wild Child 
XF 142 
AF2 3 
*WX2:AGENTZERO 
DPOOL3 57 
DPOOL3 60 
DPOOL3 61 

The Director (Malcolm Colcord) (new listing) 
*W2 166-FB 
*W2 162-BTS 
*W2 166 
*WX2:AGENTZERO 
*DPOOL3 57 
*DPOOL3 58 
*DPOOL3 60 


Agent Brent Jackson 
W2 166 
*WX2:AGENTZERO 
DPOOL3 57 
DPOOL3 58 
DPOOL3 59 
DPOOL3 60 
DPOOL3 61 

Duncan, Dr. (new listing) 
*DPOOL3 57 
*WX2:AGENTZERO 

Zira, Dr. (new listing) 
*DPOOL3 57 
*WX2:AGENTZERO 

Wolverine 
W2 168 
W2 169 
UX 392 
X 112 
UX 393 
X 113 
TB 57 
CYCLOPS 1 (moved) 
CYCLOPS 4 
UX 394 
XFOR 116 (moved) 
XFOR 120 (moved) 
*WX2:AGENTZERO 
DPOOL3 60 (moved) 
DPOOL3 61 (moved) 
(probably w2 @2001, W2 170-176, when they are indexed) 
X 114 
X 115 
X 116

Last edited by Dhall on 08 Oct 2004 11:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Oct 2004 07:11 pm    
By SeanCurtin

You've got Mesmero listed as appearing after DPOOL3 57-61 when it should be before those appearamces. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Oct 2004 11:21 pm    
By Dhall

Fixed, thanks!

			*	*	*

Thread 86

Posted: 09 Oct 2004 09:52 am    Post subject: WOLVERINE/HULK #1-4
By Dhall

To save time, Im copying Pauls brief description of this series from the calendar: 

WOLVERINE/HULK #1 
One day. On some kind of mission, Logan crash lands a plane in the snowy Arctic, where he encounters a girl named Po and Bruce Banner, who turns into Stupid Hulk. 
WOLVERINE/HULK #2 
The same day as W/H 1. Hulk and Wolverine fight, and Pos mystery deepens. 
WOLVERINE/HULK #3 
The same day as W/H 2. Banner tells Logan the story of Po. It is "20 friggin years" after H 1. 
WOLVERINE/HULK #4 
The same day as W/H 3. Logan and Hulk find the remains of Po and her father and conclude that the girl theyre with is a spirit which they set free. 

I agree with the calendar placement, which puts this after X 126, and between Hulk 33 and 34. 

(For some reason the next w/h series 6 hrs, is in the MCP, but not this one. According to the calendar, that one should go between UX 437 and 438.) 

Flashback Issue 3: Bruce tells Logan about Po: Pos father (Hank)was a technician for the gamma bomb test, her parents (Hank and Lois)asked Bruce to be the godfather. 
Po grows up with a morbid curiosity about the afterlife. 
Then Po and Hank were in a plane crash. (This is meant to be a few weeks before Bruce turned into he Hulk.) 

Characters: 
Wolverine 
Hulk 
Po (spirit) 


Listings: 
Wolverine 
X 126 
BHOOD 8 
*W/H 1 
*W/H 2 
*W/H 3 
*W/H 4 
XX 18 
UX 408 
UX 409 

Hulk 
H3 32 
BP3 35 
DEF2 8 
*W/H 1 
*W/H 2 
*W/H 3 
*W/H 4 
TB 57 
H3 33-FB 
H3 34 

Bruce also appears in flashback, before and after Hulk 1, which I will have to let someone else handle the chronology for.. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Thread 87

Posted: 09 Oct 2004 04:20 pm    Post subject: Gambit & Bishop
By Dhall

Gambit & Bishop 

Gambit & Bishop 5-FB 
The Phoenix Force and The Bete Noir fight, and the Phoenix Force traps it in the still forming Earths core. 


Gambit & Bishop 2-FB 
Young Remy LeBeau (age six) as a kid, at the graveyard, doing something acrobatic. Then he meets the Witness. (I put this before Gambit3 25-FB, just based on the appearance of Remy's age.) 

Gambit & Bishop 3-FB 
Stryfe narrates his past, mostly its stuff weve already seen. There is a new scene of him holding up the newly created legacy virus. (Im placing this before X-Cutioners song, as the virus is ready to use, but hasnt been released yet, and is still in Stryfes possession. My specific placement is between XFOR 10 and the Cable limited series.) 

Gambit & Bishop 5-FB 
The Bete Noir infects Bishop, as Bishop makes his way through the Timestream (in Bishops own series between Bishop2 14 and 15) 


Gambit & Bishop 1-FB 

Bishop has a muddled recollection of Storm, Psylocke, Rogue, and Thunderbird III leaving the mansion. (This takes place between Flashbacks seen in XX 3) 

Gambit & Bishop Alpha 

Bishop has a weird dream about him and Gambit fighting Cyclops and Iceman, then he wakes up. Xavier believes that Bishops mind had slipped off into the (possible) future. 
Its night, full moon over the Mansion. 
Beast, Nightcrawler, Xavier, Bishop are present. (Apparently so are Storm, and Psylocke, but of course they are telepathic projections) 
Beast discovers a symbiote in Bishops system (the Bete Noir) 
Gambit comes back home from a date (apparently with Rogue, who is another projection) 

Gambit & Bishop 1 
Same night, at the mansion Gambit smokes. Beast runs tests on Bishop. Xavier, Nightcrawler, Bishop, Beast, Gambit are present. (Storm, Rogue & Psylocke appear as telepathic projections.) (X-Men Annual 2000 mentioned as a few weeks ago.) 
Gambit is suspicious, and eventually attacks the other X-Men. The three ladies being projections disappear. Gambit and Bishop team up to fight the team, then they figure out that Stryfe is behind things, and Gambit decides that Stryfe wants the symbiote, so that he and Bishop should escape, which they do. 

Gambit & Bishop 2 
Gambit and Bishop on a plane. (Sen. Kellys death is mentioned) They go to the graveyard, meet the Witness and Stryfe. 

Gambit & Bishop 3 
Stryfe begs for help, Bishop wants to fight, Remy wants to go eat, so they go to a diner, where Stryfe narrates his life story. Cable appears at the window. 

Gambit & Bishop 4 
The diner sequence continues.Cable distracts G and B with an illusion, and takes Witness and Stryfe back to the graveyard. 

Gambit & Bishop 5 
The graveyard scene continues, Cable makes Stryfe remember everything he has done, Stryfe explains about the Bete Noir. 

Gambit & Bishop 6 
Le Bete Noit tries to escape from Bishops body, but Stryfe pulls it into himself, sacrificing himself, and apologizes to Cable, before he dies. 



Alpha 
Beast 
Nightcrawler 
Xavier 
Bishop 
Gambit 
The Bete Noir 
Stryfe  BTS 

1 
Beast 
Nightcrawler 
Xavier 
Bishop 
Gambit 
The Bete Noir 
Stryfe  BTS 

In FB: 
Bishop,Storm, Psylocke, Rogue, and Thunderbird III 


2 
Bishop 
Gambit 
The Bete Noir 
Hercule (from Gambit 25) 
Witness II/ Remy LeBeau 
Stryfe 

In FB: Remy LeBeau as a child, age six, Witness II 

3 
Stryfe 
Bishop 
Gambit 
Witness II 
The Bete Noir 
Cable 

FB: Stryfe (creating legacy virus) 

4 
Cable 
Stryfe 
Witness II 
Gambit 
Bishop 
The Bete Noir 

5 
Gambit 
Bishop 
The Bete Noir 
Cable 
Stryfe 
Witness II 

FB: Bishop, The Bete Noir, Phoenix Force 


6 
Witness II 
Bishop 
Gambit 
Cable 
Stryfe 
Le Bete Noir 

Listings: 
(come back to fbs) 

Bishop 
BSHP2 14 
*G&B 5-FB 
BSHP2 15 
 
(XX 3-FB) Remove: Bishop is NOT in this flashback 
*G&B 1-FB 
XX 3-FB 
XX 1-FB 
*G&B ALPHA 
*G&B 1 
*G&B 2 
*G&B 3 
*G&B 4 
*G&B 5 
*G&B 6 
XX 1 
XX 2 
XX 3 

Gambit 
GAM3 1-FB 
*G&B 2-FB 
GAM3 25-FB 
 
UX 390 
XU 30/2 
*G&B ALPHA 
*G&B 1 
*G&B 2 
*G&B 3 
*G&B 4 
*G&B 5 
*G&B 6 
XX 4 

Stryfe 

XFOR 10 
*G&B 3-FB 
C 1-BTS 
C 2 
X 13 
.. 
XFOR 74 
XM 45-BTS 
XM 46 
C2 63 
XM 47 
X '00 
*G&B ALPHA-BTS 
*G&B 1-BTS 
*G&B 2 
*G&B 3 
*G&B 4 
*G&B 5 
*G&B 6 

Xavier 
UX 390 
X 110 
C2 92 
GENX 75-BTS 
*G&B ALPHA 
*G&B 1 
X 111 

Beast 
XX 3-FB 
*G&B 1-FB 
XX 2-FB 
XX 1-FB 
*G&B ALPHA 
*G&B 1 
XX 1 
XX 2 
XX 3 

Nightcrawler 
X 109 
XU 30/2 
XU 32/2 
*G&B ALPHA 
*G&B 1 
NC2 1 
NC2 2-FB 
NC2 2 
NC2 3 

Cable 
C2 94 
C2 95 
*G&B 3 
*G&B 4 
*G&B 5 
*G&B 6 
C2 96 
C2 97 

Le Bete Noir (new listing) 
*G&B 5-FB 
*G&B ALPHA 
*G&B 1 
*G&B 2 
*G&B 3 
*G&B 4 
*G&B 5 
*G&B 6 

Note: The Witness exists in all times and places simultaneously, or some such, we never get a very good explanation of the character. 

Witness II/Remy LeBeau 
XSE 4-FB 
XSE 4-FB 
XSE 4-FB 
{UX 287-FB} 
BSHP2 2 
BSHP2 3 
BSHP2 6 
BSHP2 7 
BSHP2 14 
*G&B 2-FB ??? I put this here, because it has to be before G&B) 
*G&B 2 
*G&B 3 
*G&B 4 
*G&B 5 
*G&B 6 


Note: There is no listing in the MCP for the Phoenix Force, which does also appear in some Excalibur FBs before going on to become Phoenix II) 

Phoenix Force 
*G&B 5-FB 
(other fbs in various Excalibur issues) 
later becomes Phoenix II 

Rogue 
XX 3-FB 
XU 30/3 
*G&B 1-FB 
XX 3-FB 
XX 2-FB 
XX 1-FB 
XX 1 

Storm 
XU 30/2 
XX 3-FB 
*G&B 1-FB 
XX 2-FB 
XX 1-FB 
XX 1 

Psylocke 
X 109 
XX 3-FB 
*G&B 1-FB 
XX 3-FB 
XX 2-FB 
XX 1-FB 
XX 1 

Thunderbird 
X 109 
XX 3-FB 
*G&B 1-FB 
XX 3-FB 
XX 1-FB 
XX 1 

Tessa (not in g&b fb, but XX 3-fb was missed from her listing) 
X 109 
*XX 3-FB 
XX 1-FB 
XX 1 


Dave H

			*	*	*

Thread 88

Posted: 09 Oct 2004 04:47 pm    Post subject: X-Man 74, 75
By David Hall

X-Man 74 

Fearful Symmetries Part Four 

April 2001 

Characters: 
X-Man 
Idris 
Melchior 
Qabari 
Sister Perpetua 

Plot: X-Man Vs. Qabari 

X-Man 75 
May 2001 

Till the End of the World 

Characters: 
X-Man 
Mike 
Carla 
Harvester 

FB: Harvester comes to earth 

Plot: X-Man Vs. Harvester, both are dispersed, the end. 

Listings: 
X-Man 
XM 73 
*XM 74 
*XM 75 

Idris 
XM 73 
*XM 74 

Qabari 
XM 73 
*XM 74 

Sister Perpetua 
XM 73 
*XM 74 

Melchior (new listing) 
*XM 67 
*XM 74 

Harvester (alien, new listing) 
*XM 75-FB 
*XM 71-BTS 
*XM 75-FB 
*XM 75

			*	*	*

Thread 89

Posted: 09 Oct 2004 11:20 pm    Post subject: CFA: PPSM2 35
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm working on Peter Parker: Spider-Man vol. 2 for this week's update, and if anyone out there has issue 35 handy, I'd appreciate an analysis. 


watching: bad boys ii

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 05:20 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

That's the issue about a small boy called LaFronce Bennett who idolises Spider-Man. The pay-off is that LaFronce imagines Spider-Man is black, like him. 

No established characters appear. Spider-Man is seen only in dream scenes and daydreams.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 90

Posted: 02 Oct 2004 01:23 pm    Post subject: Logan: Path of The Warlord
By Dhall

Logan: Path of The Warlord 
Feb 1996 


Backstory: Logan hooked up with Chang after the war. Chang works for Landu, Luckman, and Lake. Logan sometimes goes on missions for Chang. Logan has fought Kimora some time previous in Kyoto. Its been a long time since Kyoto Kimora is the ruler of another dimension. He was trapped in ours when he followed Carling, whom he wanted to get the secrets of inter dimensional travel from. Dr. Carling invented inter dimensional travel, he went to Kimoras world, and settled down, met a woman, and had a daughter, Rose. Kimora killed his wife, and chased him to our dimension. Kimora was trapped in our dimension for years. 


Some Time Ago on a bridge fifty miles west of Tokyo: 
(This is some time after the war) 
Logan is doing a mission (from Chang.) Armed with a gun, he is attempting to free a scientist named Carling from a group of men working for Kimora. Logan was supposed to arrange a meeting between Carling and agents of Landu, Lackman, and Lake. 
Instead Kimoras agents seized Carling. Logan fights with his gun and two knives, but some of them men get away with Carling. On the Ginza strip, Logan goes to the LLL office to find Chang. Even though Logan considers Chang to be one of the few friends he has in this life, he is still concerned about the possibility that Chang might have sold him out. Logan finds the guard murdered, and he sees Chang. Change explains that it was Kimoras men who did this. Logan decides to go after Kimora himself. He tracks Kimora down. Kimora has Carling tied up. Logan and Kimora fight. During this fight, Carling manages to free himself. Kimora is winning his fight with Logan, but as he does so, Carling takes a blade and cuts off Kimoras head. 


Years later, in the high mountains of Japan: 
Logan is training with an unnamed sensei in a place called Jasmine Falls. He has been doing this for the better part of five years. Logan is sparring with Miyagi, a fellow student, but he cuts him by accident. For this his sensei takes away his sword, and gives him a wooden one to use. Chang has come to find Logan. He tells him that Kimora is alive, and has taken Dr. Carling. Logan agrees to join Chang on this mission. 


The Next Day: The bulk of the issue occurs on Kimoras world. LLL has a machine that can take them across dimensions. This machine was built by Dr. Carling. Kimora wants him so that power can become his. On Kimoras world, Kimora has used Oracle to etract this information from Carlings mind. Logan and Chang journey to Kimoras world, and meet up with Rose, and fight two of Kimoras warriors. Rose has the ability to alter her body mass. Wolverine was wounded in the fight, and is unconscious for almost a day, to due the poison on the blade. The three of them infiltrate Kimoras fortress. They fight his guards, and use a shadow teleporter to go to Kimoras location. Logan loses himself to the rage, and goes through Kimoras men, and after Kimora. Kimora kills Carling, then Logan shoots him. Logan pushes Kimora into the rift between worlds in Kimoras device, then destroys the machine with his wooden sword. 

Japan, Three Days Later: Carlings funeral. Chang, Logan and Rose talk about the future. Rose has decided to stay on as an operative with LLL, and she wants Logan to team up with her. Logan says he will think about it. 
(We know from the photo in UX 257, that he goes on at least one more mission with her.) 


Characters: 

Logan 
Dr. Carling 
Chang 
Kimora 
Rose Carling (Later in life known as Rose Wu) 
Oracle II 
Miyagi 



Listings 

Carling, Dr. 
*L:POTW 

Miyagi 
*L:POTW 

Kimora 
*L:POTW 

Orcale II 
*L:POTW 


Chang 

*W2 5-FB (Tintype of Logan and Chang, before Chang wore glasses) 
*L:POTW 
*W2 98-FB (Chang goes into Warp Chamber to get Logans stuff, he looks older here than in POTW) 
*W2 5 
*W2 6-FB (killed by Bloodscream) 
*W2 5 (Corpse) 



Rose Wu (Carling) 
*L:POTW 
*UX 257-FB (Photograph of Rose and Logan in an alien city, possibly in her home dimension) 
*UX 257 
*UX 261 
*W2 87 
*W2 98 (dies) 


Ruth Wu 
*UX 257 


Logan 

(Note: Logans chronology in the MCP is SO messed up, that its pointless for me to try to fit this in there. It needs a complete overhaul, as the listing has stuff from WW II, followed by stuff from the 1930s, followed by more WW II, it has UX-268-FB (which occurs in 1941) sitting in the middle of the Mutant Massacre, lots of flashbacks that arent listed at all, etc.) 

But these are the flashbacks and appearances that are relevant, to Logan: Path of the Warlord.) 

*W2 5-FB (Tintype of Logan and Chang, before Chang wore glasses) 
*L:POTW 
*UX 257-FB (Photograph of Rose and Logan in an alien city, possibly in her home dimension) 


*W2 97-FB (Chang goes into Warp Chamber to get Logans stuff, he looks older here than in POTW) (Lowtown- Madripoor) 


These have to be sometime after Logan goes to the Far East for the first time. He met Chang sometime after the war, this is probably the first world war, and before the second, probably in the early 1930s. 

The five year training period is probably not Logans first exposure to the martial arts, that would have come from Ogun.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 09:49 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I didn't think photos counted for MCP purposes. 

::shiftily ignores the time he got Russ to include a photo from Excalibur #4 as a FB, sidles away whistling:: 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 01:21 pm    
By Dhall

Yeah, well you set a precedent....I only count them if they are of extreme importance.... in this case the photos are the only evidence that Logan and Rose teamed up as a unit, and went on further missions for LL&L. I think that should count. 

I wouldn't count a generic photo that a) showed nothing new b) showed something that we've seen in a flashback, or c) couldn't be placed in chronology at all. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Thread 91

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 06:03 pm    Post subject: Deadpool 67
By Dhall

Deadpool 67 


Characters: 
Black Swan 
Nijo 
Deadpool 
Sandi Brandenberg 
Ratbag 
Rhino 
Outlaw II 
Dazzler 
Cruise Minor 
Taskmaster 


Plot: This issue is a homage to the movie Bodyguard. Deadpool is hired to protect Dazzler against an unnamed assassin who hates disco music, and wants to kill Dazzler during her big comeback. Deadpool is still suffering the effects of Black Swans brain virus in this issue. 



Brandenberg, Sandi 
*DPOOL 3 67 
AGENTX 1 
AGENTX 2 
AGENTX 3 
AGENTX 4 
AGENTX 6 
AGENTX 7 
AGENTX 10 
AGENTX 11 
AGENTX 12 
AGENTX 13 
AGENTX 14 
AGENTX 15 


Black Swan 
*DPOOL 3 67 
AGENTX 13 
AGENTX 14 
AGENTX 15 

Cruise Minor 
*DPOOL 3 67 


Dazzler 
LSHOT2 1-BTS 
XBR 
UX 392 
X 112 
UX 393 
X 113 
*DPOOL 3 67 


Deadpool 
DPOOL3 61 
*DPOOL 3 67 
AGENTX 13 
AGENTX 14 
AGENTX 15 

Outlaw II 
*DPOOL 3 67 
AGENTX 1 
AGENTX 2 
AGENTX 3 

Ratbag 
*DPOOL 3 67 

Rhino 
TB 26 
TW 1 
TW 5 
TW 6 
*DPOOL 3 67 
AGENTX 6 
PPSM2 50 

Taskmaster 

W2 167 
W2 168 
CA3 44 
*DPOOL 3 67 
AGENTX 1 
AGENTX 2 
AGENTX 3 

Nijo 
*DPOOL3 67

			*	*	*

Thread 92

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 06:57 pm    Post subject: Deadpool 69
By Dhall

Deadpool 69 

Healing Factor: Chapter Three: Finale 
Characters: 
Deadpool 
Ratbag / Erik 
Sandi 
Taskmaster 
Siryn 
Weasel 
Blind Al 
Wolverine 
Captain America 
Jerry, Sandi's abusive boyfriend 
Nijo 
Black Swan 
Plot: Final Issue. Sandi is in the hospital. Her abusive boyfriend put her there. She makes Wade promise not to kill him. Wade beats him up. Taskmaster comes and kills him (he didnt make a promise.) Wade and Ratbag go to Germany to confront the Black Swan. (Before he leaves he prank calls Siryn, Wolverine, Captain America, Blind Al, and Weasel.) After Deadpool messes up his castle, Swan tells Nijo that Deadpool didnt kill the Four Winds (issue 65) he did. He kills Nijo. Swan is mad at Deadpool because Deadpool messed up his hit. Wade shows Swan that he has a large bomb in his briefcase. He makes Swan rewire Ratbags mind. Ratbag escapes, Wade fights Swan, who chops off Wades hand. Wade gets the better of Swan, but then realizes that the code to shut off the bomb is written on the hand that was chopped off. Wade dives for it, as the bomb goes off, and the castle explodes.. 

Listings: 

Brandenberg, Sandi 
*DPOOL 3 67 
*DPOOL 3 69 
AGENTX 1 
AGENTX 2 

Black Swan 
*DPOOL 3 67 
*DPOOL 3 69 
AGENTX 13 
AGENTX 14 
AGENTX 15 


Deadpool 
DPOOL3 61 
*DPOOL 3 67 
*DPOOL 3 69 
AGENTX 13 
AGENTX 14 
AGENTX 15 

Ratbag (Erik) 
*DPOOL 3 67 
*DPOOL 3 69 


Taskmaster 
W2 167 
W2 168 
CA3 44 
*DPOOL 3 67 
*DPOOL 3 69 
AGENTX 1 
AGENTX 2 
AGENTX 3 

Nijo 
*DPOOL 3 67 
*DPOOL 3 69 

Siryn 
W2 154 
W2 155 
DPOOL3 56 
DPOOL3 61 
*DPOOL 3 69 

Weasel 
DPOOL3 14 
DPOOL3 61 
*DPOOL 3 69 

Blind Al 
DPOOL3 26-FB-FB 
DPOOL3 31-FB 
DPOOL3 61 
*DPOOL 3 69 

Wolverine 
XX 18 
UX 408 
UX 409 
*DPOOL 3 69 


Captain America 
A3 56-FB 
XX 11 
XX 13 
XX 18 
BP3 41 
BP3 42 
A3 56 
*DPOOL 3 69 
A3 57

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 07:59 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Of course, Nijo goes on to become Agent X. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 93

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 09:12 pm    Post subject: X-Treme X-Men 19
By  Dhall

X-Treme X-Men 19 

Characters: 
Phoenix IV 
Beast 
Wolverine 
Nightcrawler 
Shadowcat 
Thunderbird III 
Lifeguard 
Storm 
Gambit 
Rogue 
Tessa/Sage 
Bishop 


Plot: The X-Treme team is now headquartered in New Orleans, courtesy of Rogue, who has inherited a house from Destiny. In New Orleans, Jean throws the X-Treme team a welcome back (from Madripoor) party, and invites them to return to the mansion. They decline, and Kitty also refuses to come back. Rogue and Gambit quit the team, as theyve both lost their powers, as does Thunderbird, who decides to go with Lifeguard and look for her brother. Logan decides to stay on for a while, to help Storm with her rehabilitation. He is around through X-Pose, and XX 20-22. 

Notes: Kitty is referred to as a college girl and working in a saloon. The events of X 126, 116 and 114 are referred to. Also Jean mentions that theyve established X-Corp. Storm tells them about the death of Kittys father. (so its after XU 36/1) (Its likely before Mekanix, as Kitty has to go back to school in this issue.) 


Phoenix IV 
X 126 
UX 407 
XX 18 
X 127 
**XX 19 

Beast 
X 125 
X 126 
XX 18 
**XX 19 

Wolverine 
XX 18 
UX 408 
UX 409 
DPOOL 3 69 
**XX 19 

Nightcrawler 
XX 18 
UX 408 
UX 409 
*XX 19 

Shadowcat 
X 100 
X:D 
X 110 
*XX 01/2 
*XX 19 

Thunderbird III 
*XX 17 
*XX 18 
*XX 19 

Lifeguard 
*XX 17 
*XX 18 
*XX 19 

Storm 
*XX 17 
*XX 18 
*XX 19 

Gambit 
*XX 17 
*XX 18 
*XX 19 

Rogue 
*XX 17 
*XX 18 
*XX 19 

Tessa/Sage 
*XX 17 
*XX 18 
*XX 19 

Bishop 
*XX 17 
*XX 18 
*XX 19

			*	*	*

Thread 94

Posted: 07 Oct 2004 07:02 pm    Post subject: Cable 99-100
By Dhall

Cable 99-100 

Plot: Cable fights the Shining Path in Peru, and rids himself of the techno-organic virus (for now anyway) 

Listings: 

Cable 
C2 97 
C2 98 
*C2 99 
*C2 100 
*C2 100/2 
DPOOL3 61 
C2 101 
C2 102 
C2 103 
C2 104 

Cuzco, Inza 
*C2 97 
*C2 98 
*C2 99 
*C2 100 
C2 104-BTS 

Cuzco, Phillipe 
*C2 97 
*C2 98 
*C2 99 
*C2 100 

* Goldberg, Ruben 
*C2 98 
*C2 100 
C2 101 
C2 103 
C2 104 

Tilby, Trish 
X 111 
*C2 97-BTS 
IM3 37 
IM3 38 

Sanz, Ernesto 
C2 97 
C2 98 
*C2 99 
*C2 100 

*Simpson, Dani 
*C2 99 
*C2 100 

Victor Nazario 
*C2 98 

Freda Nazario 
*C2 98 


Cable 99 
Characters: 
Cable 
Elidia, Inza, Juana, Ernesto Sanz, Theresa (all Shining Path) Phillipe, Inzas son 
Steinberg 
Commander and several unnamed Kaval Police officers 
Dani Simpson, news woman 
Cable 100 (2 stories) 

Characters: 
Cable 
Carla, Inza, Maria, Ernesto Sanz, Theresa (all Shining Path) 
Pedro, Philipe and Sela, kids in the Shing Path camp 
Reuben Goldberg 
Gomez and Kaval (police officers) 
Dani Simpson, news woman 

Story two: Cable

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 11:07 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

About that second story in #100: 

Are all of the flashbacks to Cable's past scenes that we've seen before? Something tells me there's a few new ones. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 95

Posted: 08 Oct 2004 01:03 pm    Post subject: Wolverine Annual 2001
By Dhall

Wolverine Annual 2001 

Characters: 
First story : 
Wolverine 
Squeegie Man, a homeless man 
Squeegie Mans son 
Bloodscream 
Vermin 
Mauvais 

Note: First story takes place over three days and nights. Plus the epilogue which takes place three days later. 

Plot: Logan befriends a homeless man who ends up missing. He runs into Bloodscream and Vermin, fights them and wins. Mauvais is pulling their strings, but Logan does not find this out at this time. 

Second story : 
Wolverine 
Father Braun 
A deputy 
A plodex bear 
Grant, Thomas 
Grant, Peter 

Plot: Logan goes to check out a missing friend, to a small town in Canada. He meets Father Braun (who is later in W2 177 and 178) and fights a plodex bear. 

Flashback: Father Braun appears BTS in the flashback in this issue, where the townfolk burn down the establishment that he is staying at. 



Listings: 

Wolverine 
UX 393 
X 113 
TB 57 
CYCLOPS 1 (moved) 
CYCLOPS 4 
UX 394 
XFOR 116 (moved) 
XFOR 120 (moved) 
WX2:AGENTZERO 
DPOOL3 60 (moved) 
DPOOL3 61 (moved) 
*W2 @2001 
*W2 @2001/2 
(prob. W2 170-176 when analyzed) 
X 114 
X 115 
X 116 

Bloodscream 
W2 86 
XU 9 
W2 123 
ASM 435 
*W2 @2001 

Vermin 
ASM 403 
PPTSS 230 
M/K 14 
M/K 15 

Not sure if this comes before or after the M/k apps. He is a prisoner in an institution, but Bloodscream transforms him back to Vermin in this issue. 
*W2 @2001 

Mauvais 
W2 165 
*W2 @2001 

Braun, Father 
*W2 @2001 

Grant, Thomas 
*W2 @2001 

Grant, Peter 
*W2 @2001

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 11:11 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
Braun, Father 
*W2 @2001 

Grant, Thomas 
*W2 @2001 

Grant, Peter 
*W2 @2001 

These last three should read "W2 @2001/2". 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Oct 2004 07:55 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Actually, that would be W '00/2. @'s are used for the numbered annuals (and the space would follow the @, not precede it); apostrophes are used for annuals that are identified by the year. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Thread 96

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 09:41 pm    Post subject: Wolverine 177-180
By Dhall

177 
Characters: 
Wolverine 
Father Braun 
Father Davidson 
Cardinal Parente 
Cardinal Panzer 
Dogma 
Sister Inquisitor 

Plot: Cardinal Panzer is broadcasting radio waves across New York City, to make everyone convert. Father Braun contacts Logan and they work to destroy the device. Logan faces off against Dogma, who is some kind of super powered assassin type. Braun is captured by Vatican ninja, while Dogma pushes Logan off the bridge, into the water. Logan is then brought to Rome by persons unknown. 

178 
Characters: 
Wolverine 
Father Braun 
Cardinal Parente 
Cardinal Panzer 
Dogma 
Sister Inquisitor 

Plot: Wolverine escapes from ninja, Sister Inquisitor tortures Braun. Logan breaks in through the sewers, to find Dogma waiting for him. He manages to breach Dogmas containment suit, thus dispersing or killing Dogma. Panzer kills Braun, so that what Wolverine knows cannot be proven. Parente tells Logan that he will see that Panzer pays for his crimes, but Parente is part of the same secret society. 

179 
Characters: 
Wolverine 
Puck, Sasquatch, Shaman, Snowbird 
Chuck Moss 
a demon 

Plot: Wolverine receives a message from Shaman, and goes up north. Alpha Flight has been possessed by a demon. While Shaman confronts it on the astral plane, Logan uses grubs given to him by Shaman, to free Sasquatch. They are able to confront the demon, and Shaman is able to send it back to the spiritual realm. Shaman asks Logan to help him train Shamans new protg, Chuck Moss. 

180 
Characters: 
Wolverine 
Chuck Moss 
Shaman 

Plot: Logan teaches Chuck Moss the way of the warrior. 

Listings: 


Wolverine 
X 126 
BHOOD 8 
W/H 1 
W/H 2 
W/H 3 
W/H 4 
BP3 41 
BP3 42 
BP3 43 
*W2 177 
*W2 178 
*W2 179 
*W2 180 
XX 18 
UX 408 
UX 409 
DPOOL 3 69 
XX 19 

Father Braun 
W2 @2001 
*W2 177 
*W2 178 

Father Davidson 
*W2 177 

Cardinal Parente 
*W2 177 
*W2 178 

Cardinal Panzer 
*W2 177 
*W2 178 

Dogma 
*W2 177 
*W2 178 

Sister Inquisitor 
*W2 177 
*W2 178 

Puck 
GENX 58 
W2 171 
W2 172 
W2 173/2 
*W2 179 

Sasquatch 
GENX 58 
W2 171 
W2 172 
W2 173/2 
*W2 179 

Shaman 
W2 143 
W2 171 
W2 172 
W2 173 
*W2 179 
*W2 180 

Snowbird 
GENX 58 
*W2 171 
*W2 172 
*W2 173/2 
*W2 179 

Moss, Chuck (new listing) 
*W2 179 
*W2 180

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 11:28 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Chuck Moss eventually takes the codename Earthmover -- but I can't for the life of me remember which issues that name saw print in. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Oct 2004 04:50 pm    
By Dhall

Wolverine 180, when Chuck pulls a worm out of the mud as his totem, Logan suggests that means he will be an Earthmover. I'm not sure if it becomes an official name at that point, but clearly he took Logan's idea and used it.

			*	*	*

Thread 97

Posted: 07 Oct 2004 08:50 pm    Post subject: Cable 106-107
By Dhall

Cable 106 
Characters: 
Cable 
Joy (undercover S.H.I.E.L.D. agent) 
Kolya and Vanya (Russian brothers) 
Kemhebek, Nurian & Oraz 
Captain Chikarev, Gerri and other Astan police officer 
Desert thieves 
Plot: Two Russian brothers have an a-bomb, that SHIELD is trying to buy from them with old comic books. (sigh.) one brother kills Joy, the Shield agent, Cable causes an explosion which kills people. 


Cable 107 
Characters: 
Cable 
Mr. Singapore (Jackie) 
Jocko, Richard and 3 other mercenary kids. 
Lazarus Ganglion 
a cameraman 
Plot: Mr. Singapore wants to talk to Nathan. He wants Nathan to become a messiah and change the world. Nate flies off into a storm, his helicopter gets hit, and his TK protects him. 
Listings: 

Cable 
C2 97 
C2 98 
C2 99 
C2 100 
C2 100/2 
DPOOL3 61 
C2 101 
C2 102 
C2 103 
C2 104 
C2 105 
BHOOD 8 
*C2 106 
*C2 107 


*Ganglion, Lazarus 
*C2 107 

*Mr. Singapore (Jackie) 
*C2 107

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 11:09 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Why are you listing him as "Mr. Singapore (Jackie)", rather than the seemingly obvious "Singapore, Jackie"? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Oct 2004 04:51 pm    
By Dhall

Mr. Singapore is his code name, Jackie is his real first name. We do not know what his real last name is. 
Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Oct 2004 07:02 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

That's not what I took from the issue. Sure, he's referred to alternately as "Mister Singapore" and "Jackie", and he claims that he named himself after the city of Singapore -- but what that says to me is that he legally changed his last name to Singapore ... rather than adopting "Mister Singapore" as a codename. He's a businessman -- what does he need a codename for? 

Soldier X #3 explicitly refers to him as "Jackie Singapore". I think that's his real legal name. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Oct 2004 07:06 pm    
By Dhall

Ah, ok.

			*	*	*

Thread 98

Posted: 11 Oct 2004 06:26 pm    Post subject: CFA: Spectacular Spider-Man
By ADMINISTRATOR

I plan to include the latest volume of Spectacular Spider-Man in this week's update, but I'm missing issues #7 and #10, if anyone can provide analyses. 


watching: naughty amateur home videos

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Oct 2004 08:17 pm    
By Ant-Man

I...uh...hmm...nevermind...
_________________
-Brian Cook-

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Oct 2004 08:25 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

"...tonight, on FOX!" 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 99

Posted: 11 Oct 2004 08:32 pm    Post subject: Wolverine 181-186
By Dhall

181 
Characters: 
Wolverine 
little blonde girl 
three mobsters 
bartender 

Plot: Wolverine has a drink in a bar with dead people. After his drink he goes downstairs and rescues the girl. 
Flashback: Twenty Minutes ago: Wolverine walks into the bar, and orders a drink. There are three mob guys at a table. After a while, they finally notice that Logan is paying attention to their conversation. He goes over, and sits down, and buys some shots, and starts telling them a story about a friend of his, who borrowed some money from mobsters to pay for an operation for his daughter. (Of course these are the same mobsters.) Logan tells them what he his going to do to them. 



182 
Characters: 
Wolverine 
Freddo Pazzo, the Godfather of the Pazzo Family 
Johnny Delacavva, underboss of the Pazzo Family 
Tony Ditello and other members of the Pazzo Family 

In a flashback : 
Sal Pazzo, former Don of the Pazzo Family 
Johnny Delacavva 

Flashback: Sal leaves the family not to Johnny like he should have, but to his son Freddo, because of a deathbed promise that he made. 

Plot: Freddo and Johhny talk, some of their guys have been hit recently (besides the ones that Logan killed in the previous issue.) Logan comes to the house with the severed hand of one of the guys from last issue in a giftbox. The Pazzo families muscle pull their guns on him, but Logan uses his claws to break them. Then Logan offers Freddo a deal. In exchange for forgiving his friends debt, Logan will handle the Pazzos rival, the Roman. 


183 
Characters: 
First Story: 
Wolverine 
Freddo Pazzo, the Godfather of the Pazzo Family 
Johnny Delacavva, underboss of the Pazzo Family 
Tony Ditello and other members of the Pazzo Family 
The Roman 
Bruno 
Vincente 
The Punisher 
The Sweeper 
The Kingpin 

Plot: Logan takes out a club full of mob guys. The Punisher puts in a cameo. The Roman acts crazy for the feds, then feeds one of his own guys to the lions for disobeying a rule. Then he decides to hire The Sweeper to take out Logan. Meanwhile the Sweeper kills some guys, dumps acid on them, and brings a diamond to the Kingpin. Freddo tries to offer Logan permanent employment, but Logan will not be bought. 

Second Story: 
Wolverine 
Lady Deathstrike 
Nicopetti 
Nicopettis henchmen 


Plot: This has to occur sometime after the arc where Deathstrike attacked Logans family (W2 173-176) Theres no reason it cant happen after the current arc (181-186) but theres no reason it couldnt happen earlier. Logan chases down Deathstrike to a cantina in Kobe, Japan. Her sometime employer, Nicopetti, refuses to help her against Logan. So she puts him through a window. Logan chases her, they have a fight with sword, no claws. She manages to put a sword through Logans guts, but cannot bring herself to kill him. Logan refuses to kill her, and walks off. Nicopetti and his men catch up with Deathstrike. 

184 
Characters: 
Wolverine 
Freddo Pazzo, the Godfather of the Pazzo Family 
Johnny Delacavva, underboss of the Pazzo Family 
Tony Ditello and other members of the Pazzo Family 
The Roman 
the Romans henchmen 
The Sweeper 
Logans friend and his daughter 

Plot: Logan kills the Sweeper in a diner. The Roman tells his henchman to bring Logan in for a talk. Johnny tries to have Logan whacked. The Romans men pick up both of them. The Roman tries to make Logan a better offer. Logan quickly gets the better of him, but then Romans men throw Johnny into the lion pit. Logan jumps down, and convinces the lions that they want no part of him, then he grabs Romans foot and drags him down, then pulls Johnny out. Logan borrows Johnnys cell phone to tell Freddo that he is out, but Freddo has kidnapped Logans friend and his daughter, and wants Logan to kill a grand jury witness. 

185 
Characters: 
Wolverine 
Freddo Pazzo, the Godfather of the Pazzo Family 
Johnny Delacavva, underboss of the Pazzo Family 
Tony Ditello and other members of the Pazzo Family 

Plot: Freddo tells Logan to kill the witness, or he will kill the girl. Logan tells Freddo hes dead. Johhny doesnt like threatening kids, but he wont shoot Freddo. The next day, the witness is still alive, and testifies. Freddo motions for Tony to go kill the kid. Later in his car, Freddo finds out that Logan has replaced his driver. Logan drive shim out to the country, to meet with Johnny and Tony. Logan cuts the ring off Freddos finger and gives it to Johnny. Johnny asks about Logans friend with the kid. Logan tells him that hes just some guy that Logan overheard a sob story in a bar, and decided to check it out. Logan leaves. Johnny tells Freddo that they did not kill the kid, and thats a line he wasnt about to cross. Tony and Johnny shoot Freddo. Logan hears the shots from his car. 

186 
Characters: 
Wolverine / Logan 
The Punisher / Frank Castle 

Plot: Logan Vs. The Punisher. This is sometime after Punisher 16-17, which is referred to, and before Punisher 33-37. Punisher goes after Wolverine because he doesnt like that Logan promoted Johnny Delacavva. Its a follow up to Punisher 16-17. 

Listings: 

Wolverine 
W2 180 
XX 18 
UX 408 
UX 409 
DPOOL 3 69 
*W2 181 
*W2 182 
*W2 183 
*W2 184 
*W2 185 
*W2 186 
XX 19 
*W2 183/2 

Punisher 
*W2 183 
*W2 186 
(Sometime between Punisher v.6 #17 and 33) 

Kingpin 
*W2 183 
(no idea where this goes in his chronology.) 

Sweeper 
*W2 183 
*W2 184 

Freddo Pazzo 
*W2 182 
*W2 183 
*W2 184 
*W2 185 

Johnny Delacavva 
*W2 182-FB 
*W2 182 
*W2 183 
*W2 184 
*W2 185 

Tony Ditello 
W2 182 
*W2 183 
*W2 184 
*W2 185 

The Roman 
*W2 184 
*W2 185 

Sal Pazzo 
*W2 182-FB 

Lady Deathstrike 
X '00 
W2 171 
W2 173 
W2 174 
*W2 183/2 

Nicopetti 
*W2 183/2

			*	*	*

Thread 100

Posted: 02 Oct 2004 03:52 pm    Post subject: Witches 1-4
By ADMINISTRATOR

WITCHES 1 
August 2004 

Pg. 1-5 
Daytime 

At the New York Public Library, Andy Kale is introduced to his new job bagging and boxing books in the rare book collection by his boss, Lou. Lou is actually Satan, and Andy is Jennifer Kale's brother. Lou points out a pile of books to start with and leaves. When Andy opens one of the books, he is transformed into a monstrous demon. 

Characters: Andy Kale, Satan (as Lou), Hellphyr 

Pg. 6-11 
Across the Marvel Universe, and in Dr. Strange's Sanctum Sanctorum, mystics are shocked by the realization that the tome of Zhered-Na has been opened and read. Strange explains to Topaz that the book holds guarded secrets. "Long ago, a spell was cast, trapping a creature known as the Hellphyr inside to protect the tome from anyone seeking its power. Now the Hellphyr has been released into this world. It won't rest until all mystics are gone. Every one of us. The Hellphyr will feed upon us one by one, our energies, our bodies...our souls. We must stop it." Strange tells Topaz they need the help of two other witches, and he sets out to find Jennifer Kale. 

Characters: Dr. Strange, Topaz, Gaea, Scarlet Witch, Agatha Harkness, Belasco, Selene, Enchantress, Morgan LeFey, Brother Voodoo, Jack Russell (Werewolf), Glamour, Illusion, Nekra, Lilith 

Pg. 12-14 
Later that day 

Strange confronts Jennifer in between college classes and convinced her to help defeat the Hellphyr and recover the book. Jennifer says the book belonged to her father, and she agrees to help Strange only after he agrees to let her keep the book. 

Most characters are wearing T-shirts and halter tops, although a couple are wearing jackets. Professor Hogan tells the class to "have a great weekend," suggesting this scene occurs on a Thursday or Friday. 

Characters: Dr. Strange, Jennifer Kale, Professor Hogan 

Pg. 15 
Presumably that evening 

In his apartment, Andy receives a call from Jennifer. She tells him she's coming to New York. Before he can protest, she hangs up, due to a bad connection. 

Even though blue skies can be seen through the window, Andy's bedroom is dark, suggesting twilight. 

Characters: Andy Kale, Jennifer Kale (voice on phone) 

Pg. 16-22 (end) 
Night (although whether it is the same night or the next night is open to interpretation, depending on how long it would take Jennifer to reach New York from wherever she attends college) 

Jennifer arrives at Strange's house and meets Topaz. Strange is in the cellar, trying to find the third member of their group. When Jennifer recalls a comment that Strange made earlier about angels and demons, they realize who Strange is attempting to contact and race down to the cellar, just in time to watch him resurrect Satana. 

Characters: Jennifer Kale, Wong, Topaz, Dr. Strange, Satana 


watching: lsu v. georgia

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2004 05:03 pm    Post subject: Witches #2
By ADMINISTRATOR

Witches 2 
August 2004 

Enough time has passed since issue one for the Hellphyr to attack three psychics and a shaman, as revealed by Strange on page 10. 

Pg. 1-3 pn. 1 
Night 

The Hellphyr attacks and injures Glamour in her home. 

Characters: Glamour, Illusion, Hellphyr (transformed Andy Kale) 

Pg. 3 pn. 2-pg. 8 
That night, continues directly from scene 1. 

Using the Orb of Agamotto, Dr. Strange, Wong, Jennifer, Topaz and Satana view the aftermath of the Hellphyre's attack on Glamour. Strange explains why he has called the three women together. "Many centuries ago, a divine spirit and a dark spirit came to the earth, and passed on the knowledge of all mysticism to Illyana Kale, Jennifer's great ancestor, and the Tome of Zerhed-Na was forged. But the gods were angered at the spirits for giving away their most guarded secrets to a human. Knowing the book was too powerful and that humans could not be trusted to watch over it, they cast a spell, locking in the Hellphyr for protection. The prophecy mandates that someone from the Kale lineage must retrieve the tome. And since the book's origins came from a trust between all three worlds, one representative from the underworld and one from the divinity must assist her." 

But Strange is unimpressed with how the three are working together, and he leaves, saying he has business on the other side of town. The three women snipe at each other. 

Characters: Dr. Strange, Jennifer Kale, Satana, Topaz, Wong, the Hellphyr (image cast by the Orb of Agamotto) 

Pg. 9 
That night, continues directly from scene 2. 

Unknown location, although the scene is surrounded by crumbling stone pillars. 

Lilith, who has been watching the three witches bickering, gives birth to a demon and sends it to attack the witches. 

Characters: Lilith, Lilith's demon 

Pg. 10-11 
Later that night (presumably this is the business Strange referred to earlier) 

Strange visits Glamour's hospital room and warns Illusion that if he tries to interfere, he'll die. He leaves, commenting that he has "others to visit." 

Characters: Dr. Strange, Glamour, Illusion 

Pg. 12-13 
That Night 

Andy is met by two friends on the street who convince him to provide some money so they can buy some stolen CD's. He offers to take them back to his apartment. 

Characters: Andy Kale, Andy's two friends (one is named Mieze) 

Pg. 14-16 
Later that Night 

Wong spars with the two witches, and during the exercise, Satana accidentally injures Jennifer. Wong warns them they must work together. 

Characters: Wong, Jennifer Kale, Topaz, Satana 

Pg. 17-20 
Later that Night 

Illusion arrives at his magic shop and comforts Lizzie, his cat. He lights a candle in an effort to track the Hellphyr, but the spell conjures the Hellphyr, and it attacks and apparently kills him. Lou watches from the sidewalk outside the shop. 

Characters: Illusion, Lizzie, Satan (as Lou), Hellphyr (transformed Andy) 

Pg. 21-22 (end) 
That night, same time 

Strange arrives at Lilith's base, in time to witness Illusion's death, scried by Lilith. Strange warns Lilith to stay away from the witches. She assures him she will, but cautions that other bad things can happen, and shows him an image of her demon stalking the three witches, back at Strange's house. 

Characters: Dr. Strange, Lilith, Illusion, Hellphyr, Lilith's demon, Jennifer Kale, Topaz, Satana (latter six as images in Lilith's scrying pool) 


watching: alabama v. south carolina

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2004 05:54 pm    Post subject: Witches #3
By ADMINISTRATOR

Witches #3 
September 2004 

Continues directly from issue 2. 

Pg. 1-3 
That night, same time 

Lilith's demon attacks the witches. During the battle, Jennifer accidentally injures Satana. 

Characters: Lilith's demon, Jennifer Kale, Satana, Topaz 

Pg. 4-5 
That night, same time 

Lilith taunts Strange, while they watch the battle. 

Characters: Dr. Strange, Lilith, Lilith's demon (image), Jennifer Kale (image) 

Pg. 6-11 
That night, same time 

The witches destroy Lilith's demon. Satana and Jennifer argue, and Jennifer rushes out, leaving the house. 

Characters: Lilith's demon, Jennifer Kale, Satana, Topaz 

Pg. 12-14 
That night, five minutes later 

Jennifer calls Andy and leaves a message saying she's on her way over. Andy tries to reach the answering machine to stop her, but he inadvertantly partially transforms into Hellphyr and destroys the answering phone. When Andy wonders what's happening to him, Lou steps out of the shadows, offering answers. 

Characters: Jennifer Kale, Andy Kyle, Hellphyr (partially transformed), Satan (as Lou) 

Pg. 15-17 
That night, same time 

Strange arrives home, and compares notes with Jennifer and Satana. 

Characters: Dr. Strange, Satana, Topaz 

This scene takes place at the same time as pages 12-14, because in essense, no time passes between pages 14 and 18. Satana observes that Strange arrives five minutes too late, referring to Jennifer's bolting. 

Pg. 18 
That night, same time 

Lou taunts Andy, and watches through a window as Jennifer's cab arrives. 

Characters: Andy Kale, Satan (as Lou), Jennifer Kale-bts 

Pg. 19 
That night, same time 

Strange divines that Jennifer has gone to Andy's apartment. 

Characters: Dr. Strange, Topaz, Satana 

Pg. 20-22 (end) 

Lou explains to Andy what's happening to him, while Andy gradually transforms into Hellphyr. "The spirits chose the Kale family to serve as the eternal guardians of the Tome of Zhered-Na. You are but one in a long line of guardians. Your grandfather, his grandfather before him, and so on. But you're the only one stupid enough to actually open the thing." Lou taunts Andy with the corpses of his two friends from issue 2, now hidden in a closet. Just as Andy completes the transformation into Hellphyr, Jennifer arrives outside his door, waiting to be let in. 

Characters: Andy Kale, Jennifer Kale, Satan (as Lou), the Hellphyr, corpses of Andy's two friends (one is named Mieze) 


watching: alabama v. south carolina

Last edited by Administrator on 02 Oct 2004 07:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2004 06:20 pm    Post subject: Witches #4
By ADMINISTRATOR

Witches #4 
September 2004 

Continues directly from issue #3. 

Pg. 1-3 
That night 

The Hellphyr opens the door and attacks Jennifer in Andy's apartment. Jennifer thinks the Hellphyr has injured Andy, but Lou reveals that the Hellphyr is Andy. 

Characters: Jennifer Kale, Hellphyr (transformed Andy Kale), Satan (as Lou), corpses of Andy's two friends (one is named Mieze). 

Pg. 4-5 
That night, immediately following, but dawn may be approaching 

Strange, Satana and Topaz appear on the sidewalk outside Andy's apartment. Strange sends the witches inside, but then he is attacked by Lilith. 

Characters: Dr. Strange, Lilith, Topaz, Satana 

Pg. 6-7 
That night, immediately following 

The three witches battle the Hellphyr. 

Characters: Satana, Topaz, Jennifer Kale, Hellphyr (transformed Andy Kale), Satan (identity revealed) 

Pg. 8-9 
That night, same time 

Strange continues his battle with Lilith. 

Characters: Dr. Strange, Lilith 

Pg. 10-13 
That night, immediately following 

While Jennifer and Topaz fight the Hellphyr, Satan entices Satana to quit the team and join him, revealing that the book is inside the Hellphyr, and the only way to get the book is to kill the Hellphyr (and Andy). 

Pg. 14 
That night, same time 

Strange and Lilith fight some more. 

Characters: Dr. Strange, Lilith 

Pg. 15-19 
That night, immdiately following 

Satana refuses Satan's offer, and the witches destroy the Hellphyr with Andy's encouragement, gaining possession of the book. 

Characters: Satana, Jennifer Kale, Topaz, Satan, the Hellphyr, Andy Kale 

Pg. 20 
That night, immediately following 

Strange defeats Lilith, and she teleports away. 

Characters: Dr. Strange, Lilith 

Pg. 21-22 (end) 
That night, immediately following 

In Andy's apartment, Strange insists that the witches give the book to him. They remind him of his promise to Jennifer, and they leave him, taking the book with them. 

Characters: Dr. Strange, Topaz, Satana, Jennifer Kale 

I believe the first issue takes place over one day and that night, or possibly the next night, and issues 2-4 take place over one night, with enough time passing between issues 1 and 2 for the Hellphyr to attack 4 other unnamed characters. 


watching: alabama v. south carolina

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2004 07:21 pm    
By Ant-Man

I assume that you meant to say that Issue #3 continues directly from issue #2...
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 02 Oct 2004 07:46 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Yeah, thanks. I'll edit it. 


watching: tennessee v. auburn

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 01:27 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I may have found a slot for WITCHES. 

We know that it was originally solicited, or promoted, many months ago, so we were prepared to place it in the past, relative to current comics. 

Dr. Strange guests in ASM2 46, and his astral form tells Spider-Man: 

I would have come in person, but vital matters elsewhere must take precedence.* 

The footnote reads: 

*As seen in...Oh, never mind. Just take our word for it. 

I humbly propose that Dr. Strange appears here between pages 15 and 16 of WITCHES 1. 


watching: closing arguments

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 08:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Oh, so you're gonna make me move AMAZING SPIDER-MAN v2 #46 (2p5-8p3) from a Monday (Sept. 16, Year 21) to a Friday, eh? And move a whole bunch of issues of ASM2 back a few days as a result?  

I think my day of the week placements here were based on the fact that in ASM2 47 (four days after the Doc Strange appearance in ASM2 46), someone says "see you Monday," leading me to believe that day was Friday (much like the "have a great weekend" statement you note in WITCHES 1). My placement also means that ASM2 48-49 occur over a weekend, involving less time away from teaching school for Peter. 

Also, I have Doc Strange in ASM2 46 during the wee hours of the morning. You appear to have WITCHES occurring all in one day, with pages 15 and 16 of WITCHES 1, and indeed, WITCHES 2-4 occurring at night before midnight. Does this series take all night to unfold?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 08:59 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Question: Is it clear anywhere throughout this miniseries whether this is before or after the events of The Order miniseries? 

Just curious...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 09:06 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
Also, I have Doc Strange in ASM2 46 during the wee hours of the morning. You appear to have WITCHES occurring all in one day, with pages 15 and 16 of WITCHES 1, and indeed, WITCHES 2-4 occurring at night before midnight. Does this series take all night to unfold? 


Huh? While it's true that issues 2-4 occur on the same night, the note for issue 2 mentions that enough time has passed between issues 1 and 2 for Hellphyr to kill several mystics. It's really an indeterminate time after issue 1, but at least one night later. And the break between pages 15 and 16 *could* allow pages 16 and up to occur on the same night as the first part of the book, depending on how long is needed for Jennifer to reach New York, but it doesn't *have* to. She may have arrived in the Big Apple the *next* night, as she may not have been able to get a flight on such short notice. 

Also, when I say "night," I just mean between dusk and dawn, without regard to midnight. Notice that in Witches #4, page 4, I note that "dawn may be approaching" (judging by the lightening skies). 


watching: new york v. boston

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Thread 101

Posted: 06 Oct 2004 07:55 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for DD:Target #1 and DD: Father #1
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Heres the start of my latest batch of reviews. In the Requests for Analysis thread, I questioned whether miniseries that didnt get completed were considered canon. I mean, if the story is never finished, then where are you supposed to fit the miniseries into a characters chronology? But if they are canon, then heres a couple of reviews for two miniseries first issues. Both Kevin Smith and Joe Quesada swear that these miniseries will be completed someday, but well have to wait and see 

DD/Bullseye: The Target 
Written by Kevin Smith 
Drawn by Glenn Fabry 

This miniseries was supposed to be the rematch between Daredevil and Bullseye after their last encounter in the pages of DD2 5, wherein Karen Page was killed by Bullseye. But the issue doesnt even have the two meet up, it just sets Bullseye up to perform a hit on someone, which will obviously bring him into conflict with Daredevil. As the miniseries was never finished, Marvel told Daredevil series writer Brian Michael Bendis to go ahead and write Bullseye into the pages of the ongoing series, (at first, they wanted Kevin Smith to write the Rematch but Bendis ended up getting the go ahead, as seen in DD2 #49, which came out in August of 2003, I believe). 

The title on the cover seems to be DD/Bullseye: The Target. Inside the book, in the small print at the bottom of the first page, its listed as Daredevil: The Target vol. 1, No. 1, January, 2003. The title of the story shown in bold letters on pages 2 and 3 says The Target. Now which is the title we shall choose for the purposes of the MCP and the calender? (if its canon, that is) 

Appearances: Daredevil, Bullseye 

Synopsis: ALL EVENTS HAPPEN ON THE SAME NIGHT. 

Daredevil goes out on patrol one night. As he goes, he pauses to look at Ground Zero, which is still a pile of rubble in this comic. He then goes out to put some flowers on Karen Pages grave. He then continues his patrol, and comes across the Owl robbing a bank vault. DD stomps the Owl, taking out his grief for Karen on the villain. Later on, Daredevil is back at what I presume to be his house, doing some training, trying to ease the anger over the loss of Karen. 

We cut to across town, where we see Bullseye meeting up with a couple of Middle Eastern terrorists, who want to hire him to kill someone. Who that someone is, the comic doesnt tell us, but Bullseye agrees to take the hit for 20 million dollars. The terrorists want him to prove that hes a cold blooded killer, so they ask him to kill a newborn babys mother in an apartment complex next door. He does so, just by using a toothpick. The terrorists are impressed, but ask why Bullseye doesnt wear a costume anymore. Bullseye says it draws too much attention. But he paints a bullseye on his forehead to say, Hey, if you want a costume: heres my costume. 

And thats how it ends. To be continued 

References: 

Pg. 1: Daredevil says right there in the opening monologue that its been over a year since the events of 9/11. Which matches up with real time for when this book came out: it appeared on the stands in November of 2002. Something doesnt quite add up with Daredevils statement though, as seen on: 

Pg. 2 and 3: On these pages we see a splash page of Ground Zero, which is still filled with debris and rubble from the destruction of the Twin Towers. But wasnt all the debris removed from the site by May of 2002? Yet here Daredevil claims its after September, 2002. 

Pg. 6: DD, whos swinging across some rooftops, passes over a bookstore in which we see a stack of books, with the title: OFF THE AIR: The murder of Karen Page and the growing costume menace. By J. Jonah Jameson. Was this book mentioned anywhere else, in any other title? 

Pg. 7: DD says its been 3 years since Karen was murdered, (as seen in DD2 5). I would say this is topical, (thats how much time had passed in real life as of November, 2002). In this small segment on pages 7 and 8, DD is taking flowers out to Karens grave, and theres some suggestion by the dialogue that its the actual anniversary of Karens death. But its ambiguous and it doesnt say it flat out, so I suppose its open to interpretation. 

The exact dialogue is: Its been 3 years since she was murdered, and I still havent fully recovered. Thats never more evident than this nightA night I dread throughout most of the yearThe night I head out to Queensto pay my respectand more than thatto mourn my loss. 

The fight between Owl and DD on page 9 is a throwaway scene, to show DD giving a smackdown to one of his rogues gallery. Unfortunately, Im left wondering where this fits in with the Owl storyline in the regular DD title. This issue came out in November, 2002. The Owl story arc in the Bendis DD book comes in DD2 41-45, which was published from January to April of 2003. So which Owl appearance comes first? In the pages of DD: Target, the Owl seems to be reduced to robbing banks. Yet in the pages of DD 2, hes a crimelord, (which is backed up by the current MK Spiderman storyline). Owl was beaten up pretty badly at the end of DD2 45, but hes also beaten up pretty badly in DD: Target as well. I cant say one way or the other where this Owl appearance goes 

Bullseye as depicted here is not wearing his typical costume, and he has a shaved bald head. This depiction was setting him up for his then upcoming movie appearance. At the end of this issue, he paints a bullseye target on his forehead, which completes the movie look. In DD2 #49, he looks the same, except I believe the bullseye on his forehead is a tattoo by then. Could be wrong about that. But in that issue, DD beats Bullseye up and carves up the villains forehead, before shipping him off to jail. The dialogue in DD2 49 suggests its the first time Daredevil has seen Bullseyes new costume. Which almost seems to indicate the final issues of DD: Target never happenedmaybe Bullseye decided not to take the job after all 

Daredevil: Father #1 
Fathers Day 
Written and drawn by Joe Quesada 

This miniseries first issue came out back in June or July, and we havent seen heads or tails of any further issues since then. The next few issues have even stopped appearing in the monthly previews books. The story is convoluted, and doesnt seem to have a coherent plot by the end of the first issue. From the previews solicitations, it appears to be a story about Matt Murdock coming to grips with his father, (who wasnt always a good man the story informs us) and it revolves around a serial killer being on the loose in Hells Kitchen during a summer heatwave. 

Appearances: Daredevil, Foggy Nelson, Jack Murdock, (in flashback), New characters: Maggie Farrell, Sean Farrell, Nestor Nero Rodriguez, and a mysterious serial killer whos identity we dont know yet. Oooh, the suspense is killing me.  

Synopsis: EVENTS IN THIS ISSUE ARE BROKEN UP OVER A COUPLE OF DAYS AS FOLLOWS. 

Pgs. 1-13: Daredevil is on patrol, jumping from rooftop to rooftop, thinking about his father. He stops by an old boxing gym, and pauses to see a poster of his father, who of course was a boxer. 

Flashbacks: pg. 2 is a splash page showing a side of Matts father, Jack, which I dont believe weve seen before. Hes slapping young Matt in the face, drawing blood. The image of Matts beloved father as a occasional child abuser strikes me as a bit out of character. I mean, Jack Murdock was no Uncle Ben. He was an alcoholic and a man with many moral failings. But a child abuser? I dont know 

Pg.3 is a flashback splash page showing Jack Murdock roughing up someone in a back alley. Matts narration explains to us that Jack was a bruiser for the local mafia for a time. I thought that was only in the Daredevil movie, and not the comic book? 

Pg. 4-7 is a flashback to the classic scene where Matt is blinded by the chemical truck. Weve already seen this before. 

Going back to the present day now: 

THE NEXT DAY. 

Pg. 14-20: Cut to the next morning. Narrative caption reads: 9 am. Matt arrives at the office, where he meets up with Foggy, and they both meet up with todays first client. The clients turn out to be Sean and Maggie Farrell, who are wanting to sue the New Jersey Power and Light company. According to Maggie, theyve been dumping chemicals in the river near Maggies house, and she got cancer from it. Its Erin Brokavitch all over again. Matt and Foggy agree to take the case. 

We learn that Maggie and Sean are both from Hells Kitchen originally, before moving to Jersey, (or wherever it is they live now). Matt suspects that Sean and him have met somewhere before now, though Sean says hes never met him before today. Matt can tell hes lying though. 

Pg. 21-22: Cut to later that night, where we see Nestor Nero Rodriguez sitting in his own house watching his own Biography on television. Nero, we learn, is the son of a popular NYC city counselman. Nero was concerned about gang violence in NYC and become a young teenage advocate against crime, until his father was murdered by gangsters. Nero dropped from sight for a while, before reemerging on the public scene as a media mogul, putting out pop albums and merchandise. 

Nero flips off the television and walks away, seemingly unhappy with the biography of his life. 

Pg. 23-24: Meanwhile, we cut to a pointless scene wherein Daredevil beats up a thug and gets the thug to turn himself into the police. 

Pg. 25-26: Narrative caption reads: Sutton Place, Manhattans East Side. Meanwhile, we cut to a scene where a woman and a man are preparing to have some kinky sex, when it turns violent, and the man kills the woman. 

To be continued 

References: 

Pg. 13: Matt says, Happy Fathers Day So I guess its Fathers day. 

Pg. 22: Nestors life as shown on the TV is a bunch of snipet flashbacks, as follows: 

Panel 1: A young Nestor standing next to his father, whos running for office as a city counselman. 

Panel 2: Young Nestor is shown to be a community activist, working on the soup lines at a homeless shelter. 

Panel 3: Young Nestor is shown heading up a teenage Neighborhood Watch group called the Street Angels. 

Panel 4: Young Nestor is shown attending the funeral of his slain father. 

Panel 5: A close up shot of the same thing shown in Panel 3. 

Pg. 23: A continuation of the flashbacks 

Panel 1: A now grown up Nestor, (who now goes by the name Nero) is seen at some sort of MTV music awards like ceremony. Hes reemerged as a media mogul. 

Panel 2: A shot of Nero standing alongside Matt Murdock, Foggy Nelson, the Thing, (Ben Grimm), and are those other 3 standing in front of Ben the rest of the FF? I cant say for certain. But in this shot, Nero is being presented with a civic medal for good deeds in the community, (I guess). The narration says: Recently seen alongside former Mayor Rudolf Giuliani and Hells Kitchen Lawyer/Activist Matthew Murdock, Nero was presented the Civic Medal of - Click! 

Panel 3: The TV goes black. Nero has turned it off. 

Panel 4: We see Nero was the one who turned it off. 

Panel 5: He gets up and walks away, throwing down a newspaper hes finished reading. 

Panel 6: This is a close up on the newspaper. Its a Daily Bugle, with a headline that reads, Hells Kitchen Spotless: Crime Rate continues to fall. Daredevil cooks crooks good. 

Waitaminute.a Daily Bugle headlinewhich is supportive of Daredevil?!? This is out of character, to me 

Also, throughout the entire issue, we have people telling us that theres a killer heatwave coming in over the next few days. 

Now where does this particular miniseries stand in connection with other DD tales? Well, there's no mention of Karen Page, and there's no mention of DD's secret identity being a hot topic in the news media. And you would think with the scene in Matt's office, that the DD media fiasco would've come up. I'm getting the feeling from this 1st issue that this is supposed to be somewhat of a timeless tale, not confined to any particular time period. The only connection to any time periods that I see is a reference to "former mayor Rudolf Guiliani". Which of course would place this after Sept. 11th. But I say just ignore that as topical. I would recommend placing it on the Father's Day of the year prior to the DD2 #26 onwards, (the start of the "DD's secret is out" storyline period). But that's only if we take this miniseries as being canon. 

Maybe further issues could shed more insight, but I don't expect those issues to come out anytime soon...Hell may freeze over before these two miniseries' conclude.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 02:46 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks for this analysis, Kevin. I am slowly going to plow through accumulated analyses of recently published comics, as well as deal with other issues that have come up recently (like the UX 401-407 matter elsewhere) -- all in an effort to update the calendar to make it more accurate and complete. Bear with me, folks... 

Anyway, I thought I'd tackle this first. 

Quote: 
>>>
Now which is the title we shall choose for the purposes of the MCP and the calender?  
<<<


I propose "DAREDEVIL: THE TARGET" with a code of "DD:T." The code for DAREDEVIL: FATHER would be "DD:F." 


Quote: 
>>>
Daredevil says right there in the opening monologue that its been over a year since the events of 9/11. 
<<<


Let's go with that...it is "over a year," Marvel Time, after 9-11 (September 11 of Year 20 on the calendar, which isn't necessarily "2001" -- see below). 


Quote: 
>>>
But wasnt all the debris removed from the site by May of 2002? Yet here Daredevil claims its after September, 2002.  
<<<


Don't confuse real world events with Marvel Universe events. It may have taken longer to remove debris from the site in the MU than it did in reality. Do we see all the debris removed in another Marvel story that is supposed to occur before DD:T 1? 


Quote: 
>>>
OFF THE AIR: The murder of Karen Page and the growing costume menace. By J. Jonah Jameson. Was this book mentioned anywhere else, in any other title?  
<<<


Not that I know of. Anyone else? 


Quote: 
>>>
The exact dialogue is: Its been 3 years since she was murdered, and I still havent fully recovered. Thats never more evident than this nightA night I dread throughout most of the yearThe night I head out to Queensto pay my respectand more than thatto mourn my loss. 
<<<


I have the death of Karen Page, in DD2 5, occurring on December 4 of Year 19. Three years after this would be December of Year 22, after DD's current storyline, so that can't be right. If were the two-year anniversary, that would place this story during DD's six-week cleanup after DD2 50, but since DD:T 1 should occur before DD2 41 for the sake of the Owl's chronology (see below), and before DD2 49 for Bullseye's sake (see below), that can't be right either. 

DD:T 1 would need to occur after September 11 of Year 21 and before October 11 of Year 21, where I have DD2 41. That would mean that three calendar years have occurred, inclusive, since Karen's death -- Years 19, 20, and 21; yes, that's a cheat. That also means it can't be the anniversary of Karen's death. So maybe Matt picked another night to commemorate Karen Page -- perhaps the anniversary of her birth? Is there a reference to Karen's birthday in any Marvel comic? 

How about this placement for DD:T 1 -- in the long gap between pages 18 and 19 of DD2 38, during the Hector Ayala storyline? 


Quote: 
>>>
In the pages of DD: Target, the Owl seems to be reduced to robbing banks. Yet in the pages of DD 2, hes a crimelord, (which is backed up by the current MK Spiderman storyline).  
<<<


That's why I'm inclined to put DD:T 1 before DD2 41. 


Quote: 
>>>
The dialogue in DD2 49 suggests its the first time Daredevil has seen Bullseyes new costume. Which almost seems to indicate the final issues of DD: Target never happenedmaybe Bullseye decided not to take the job after all  
<<<


Well, nothing we've seen in DD:T thus far would suggest that DD "saw" Bullseye's non-costume before DD2 49. But the fact that DD carves the symbol in Bullseye's forehead in DD2 49 definitely places DD:T 1 before that. 


ON TO DAREDEVIL: FATHER... 

Quote: 
>>>
Matt says, Happy Fathers Day So I guess its Fathers day. 
<<<


Agreed. 


Quote: 
>>>
The only connection to any time periods that I see is a reference to "former mayor Rudolf Guiliani". Which of course would place this after Sept. 11th. But I say just ignore that as topical.  
<<<


Agreed. But then again, does Giuliani appear as mayor or is he referenced as mayor in a Marvel comic set after the MU's 9-11? 


Quote: 
>>>
I would recommend placing it on the Father's Day of the year prior to the DD2 #26 onwards, (the start of the "DD's secret is out" storyline period). But that's only if we take this miniseries as being canon.  
<<<

I'll go with that proposal. That would mean that DD:F 1 occurs on Sunday and Monday, June 17-18, of Year 20, six months after Karen Page's death. That puts DD:F in the long gap between DD2 15 and 20. It appears like this would work. 


Quote: 
>>>
A shot of Nero standing alongside Matt Murdock, Foggy Nelson, the Thing, (Ben Grimm), and are those other 3 standing in front of Ben the rest of the FF? I cant say for certain. But in this shot, Nero is being presented with a civic medal for good deeds in the community, (I guess). The narration says: Recently seen alongside former Mayor Rudolf Giuliani and Hells Kitchen Lawyer/Activist Matthew Murdock, Nero was presented the Civic Medal of - Click!  
<<<


So then, according to my calculations, this "recent" flashback relative to DD:F 1 shows Ben and perhaps others of the FF sometime between FF3 28 and 29. Now this is a period in which Reed was in Dr. Doom's armor, but if Reed isn't shown, that should be okay. Does the Thing wear dark blue trunks with a wide white waistband in this flashback in DD:F 1?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 07:42 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I propose "DAREDEVIL: THE TARGET" with a code of "DD:T." The code for DAREDEVIL: FATHER would be "DD:F." 
<<<

Agreed. 


Quote: 
>>>
Let's go with that...it is "over a year," Marvel Time, after 9-11 (September 11 of Year 20 on the calendar, which isn't necessarily "2001" -- see below). 

I have the death of Karen Page, in DD2 5, occurring on December 4 of Year 19. Three years after this would be December of Year 22, after DD's current storyline, so that can't be right. If were the two-year anniversary, that would place this story during DD's six-week cleanup after DD2 50, but since DD:T 1 should occur before DD2 41 for the sake of the Owl's chronology (see below), and before DD2 49 for Bullseye's sake (see below), that can't be right either. 

DD:T 1 would need to occur after September 11 of Year 21 and before October 11 of Year 21, where I have DD2 41. That would mean that three calendar years have occurred, inclusive, since Karen's death -- Years 19, 20, and 21; yes, that's a cheat. That also means it can't be the anniversary of Karen's death. So maybe Matt picked another night to commemorate Karen Page -- perhaps the anniversary of her birth? Is there a reference to Karen's birthday in any Marvel comic? 

How about this placement for DD:T 1 -- in the long gap between pages 18 and 19 of DD2 38, during the Hector Ayala storyline? 
<<<
 
I think you're best bet probably is between Sept. 11th and Oct. 11th of Year 21. When does the Hector Ayala storyline end again? 

And when did you place Karen's death on the calender? I'd like to see your full calender dates for all events of the early issues of DD2, (if you've got them all plotted out, which is what you seem to be saying). 


Quote: 
>>>
Agreed. But then again, does Giuliani appear as mayor or is he referenced as mayor in a Marvel comic set after the MU's 9-11? 
<<<

Are you asking does Giuliani appear in this comic? Cause he doesn't. We're told by the reporter that Giuliani was at the same award ceremony that Matt Murdock, Nero, and the Thing were at, (though I can't see him in the panel). 



Quote: 
>>>
So then, according to my calculations, this "recent" flashback relative to DD:F 1 shows Ben and perhaps others of the FF sometime between FF3 28 and 29. Now this is a period in which Reed was in Dr. Doom's armor, but if Reed isn't shown, that should be okay. Does the Thing wear dark blue trunks with a wide white waistband in this flashback in DD:F 1? 
<<<

Thing doesn't appear in costume at all. He's in a business suit with a tie, (as is everyone at this ceremony). The more I look at the panel, the more I believe those are NOT the other FF members standing in front of the Thing. Sure, the woman has blond hair, (like Sue) but Reed Richards and Johnny Storm were never this ugly... 

Though why would Ben Grimm be at a "Civic Medal award" ceremony without the rest of the FF? Oh well...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 09:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I think you're best bet probably is between Sept. 11th and Oct. 11th of Year 21. When does the Hector Ayala storyline end again?  
<<<

I have DD2 38-39 spanning July 19 through October 8 of Year 21, with a large gap between pages 17 and 19 of DD2 38 (July 22-Oct. 4) to allow time for the case to go to trial. That's where I propose we put DD:T. 


Quote: 
>>>
And when did you place Karen's death on the calender? I'd like to see your full calender dates for all events of the early issues of DD2, (if you've got them all plotted out, which is what you seem to be saying). 
<<<

I have Karen's death on December 4 of Year 19. Here's a (still tentative) rundown of early DD2 issues: 
Year 19 
DD2 1 -- 11/28-29 
DD2 2 -- 11/30 
DD2 3 -- 12/1 
DD2 4 -- 12/1-3 
DD2 5 -- 12/4 
DD2 6 -- 12/5 
DD2 7 -- 12/6 
DD2 8 -- 12/12-15 
Year 20 
DD2 19-FB -- 2/13 
DD2 9 -- 2/14 
DD2 10 -- 2/14 
DD2 16 -- 2/15 
DD2 17 -- 2/15 
DD2 11 -- 2/15 
DD2 12 -- 2/15 
DD2 13 -- 2/15-16, 2/19 
DD2 18 -- 2/16 
DD2 19 -- 2/16 
DD2 14 -- 2/21-25 
DD2 15 -- 2/25-26 


Quote: 
>>>
Are you asking does Giuliani appear in this comic?  
<<<

I was wondering if Giuliani shows up as mayor in any Marvel comic that is supposed to occur after the MU's 9-11. 


Quote: 
>>>
Thing doesn't appear in costume at all. He's in a business suit with a tie, (as is everyone at this ceremony). The more I look at the panel, the more I believe those are NOT the other FF members standing in front of the Thing. Sure, the woman has blond hair, (like Sue) but Reed Richards and Johnny Storm were never this ugly...  
<<<


Well, that makes life easier. And I don't think it's unusual for Ben to appear at a public function alone.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 09:36 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I have DD2 38-39 spanning July 19 through October 8 of Year 21, with a large gap between pages 17 and 19 of DD2 38 (July 22-Oct. 4) to allow time for the case to go to trial. That's where I propose we put DD:T. 
<<<
 
Yeah, late September or ealy October works for me. 


Quote: 
>>>
I have Karen's death on December 4 of Year 19. Here's a (still tentative) rundown of early DD2 issues: 
Year 19 
DD2 1 -- 11/28-29 
DD2 2 -- 11/30 
DD2 3 -- 12/1 
DD2 4 -- 12/1-3 
DD2 5 -- 12/4 
DD2 6 -- 12/5 
DD2 7 -- 12/6 
DD2 8 -- 12/12-15 
Year 20 
DD2 19-FB -- 2/13 
DD2 9 -- 2/14 
DD2 10 -- 2/14 
DD2 16 -- 2/15 
DD2 17 -- 2/15 
DD2 11 -- 2/15 
DD2 12 -- 2/15 
DD2 13 -- 2/15-16, 2/19 
DD2 18 -- 2/16 
DD2 19 -- 2/16 
DD2 14 -- 2/21-25 
DD2 15 -- 2/25-26 
<<<

Hmmm, sounds promising. I'll have to take time to disect it. 


Quote: 
>>>
I was wondering if Giuliani shows up as mayor in any Marvel comic that is supposed to occur after the MU's 9-11. 
<<<

Not to my knowledge. Anyone else?
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2004 06:08 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Yeah, late September or ealy October works for me.  
<<<

Okay. I have DD:T placed on Thursday, September 26, Year 21.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 102

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 12:57 pm    Post subject: CFA: Amazing Spider-Man
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm missing a bunch of these, folks. We'll be catching up with ASM2 this weekend, but I'm looking for analyses of the following books: All I *really* need is character appearances. 

ASM2 41 
ASM2 42 
ASM2 43 
ASM2 44 
ASM2 57 
ASM 504 


watching: live from...

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 09:21 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

ASM #41 
One night and the next day. Appearances by Spider-Man, Jennifer, (student from Peter's school) Lt. William Lamont, May Parker, Richard Cranston, Dr. Strange, The Shade (BTS) 
Flashback to "six years ago": appearance by Richard Cranston 

ASM #41, story 2 
Continuation from #40/2. Appearances by Kraven II, Spider-Man, Stilt-Man, Dr. Octopus, Rhino, Electro, Tarantula, Mr. Hyde, Timby (Kraven's girlfriend), Kraven I, and some guy in a wolf-type costume that I don't recognize 

ASM #42 
Shortly after #41. Appearances by Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, The Shade, Jennifer, Mary Jane Watson Parker, May Parker (BTS, on the phone) 

ASM #43 
Appearances by Spider-Man, Peter's principal, Dr. Octopus, Mr. Carlyle, Mary Jane Watson Parker, May Parker, Mr. Devereaux 
Flashback: Mr. Carlyle 

ASM #44 
Picks up right after #43. Appearances by Spider-Man, May Parker, Mary Jane Watson Parker, Rick Turk, Mr. Carlyle, Dr. Octopus 

ASM #57 
The day before and Peter's birthday. Appearances by Spider-Man, May Jane Watson Parker, May Parker, Iron Man, Human Torch II, Thing, Thor, Invisible Woman, Mr. Fantastic, Cyclops, Dr. Strange, Dormammu, hordes of Mindless Ones 

ASM #504 
Appearances by Spider-Man, Loki, Morwen, Tess Black

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 09:33 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Ooops. I'm also missing ASM2 40. Thanks, Sean! 


watching: news

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 09:41 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Wait a minute. I do have ASM2 40, but there's no 40/2 in my book for 41/2 to continue from. What's up? 


watching: new york v. boston

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 09:57 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Sounds like the 5-page "Get Kraven" prologue that ran sporadically through the backs of various books to me. Likely this Chapter 2 continues from some other random titles -- and also appears IN other random titles. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Oct 2004 10:14 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Sounds like the 5-page "Get Kraven" prologue that ran sporadically through the backs of various books to me. Likely this Chapter 2 continues from some other random titles -- and also appears IN other random titles. 
<<<

That's probably it. I assumed it picked up from ASM #40 since 41/2 A) is a Spider-Man story and B) has a "Chapter Two" in the story title.

			*	*	*

Thread 103

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 07:48 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for DD2 #62-64
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Before reading the rest of this storyarcs reviews, I would recommend going back and reading my review for DD#61, as a refresher for what happened at the start of this story arc. 

Daredevil #62 
The Widow Pt. 2 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev 

Appearances: Daredevil, Black Widow, Jigsaw, Ben Urich-BTS, The Director of the CIA, (who I later learn is named Director Wallace). 

Synopsis: CONTINUES FROM RIGHT WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE. 

Pg. 1-2: The Director of the CIA is talking to another politician. Director Wallace is ticked off at Fury, who has apparently allowed the Black Widow to remain free, (when Fury was supposed to bring her in, so the US govt. could exchange her for Madame Hydra). But now Black Widow and Daredevil are all over the morning newspapers. The Director concludes there are other ways of capturing Natasha 

Pg. 3-10: Narrative caption reads: LAST NIGHT: NORTH SHORE PIER. 
Now we cut back to the events of last night, as shown on the newspaper headline on the morning of pages 1-2 of this issue, and the last page of last issue. DD and Black Widow beat up Jigsaw down at the Pier, before heading back home to Matts place. Daredevil says Ben is hiding behind a car a block away, close at hand to get the story for the Bugle, once the fighting is over, (so thats a BTS appearance). Once back in Matts home, Natasha hits on Matt, trying to seduce him. He stops her, and says to give him a minute. He rushes downstairs to his briefcase, and pulls out the annulment papers given to him by Millas lawyers. Hes just about to sign the papers, making the annulment official, but decides against it. He tells Natasha hes sorry, but he cant follow through on the sexual fling she had in mind. 

Pg. 11-22: Now we cut back to the next day, (the "today" of pages 1 and 2 of this issue). Matt is meeting up with Foggy Nelson at the law office. Foggy holds up a newspaper featuring the Widow/Daredevil story. Foggy asks if Matt slept with her, but Matt says no, that he still loves Milla. Foggy points out that Milla wants an annulment, and Matt says he doesnt care. 

Just then, Jigsaw, (fresh out on bail) bursts into Matts office. Jigsaws heard that Matt is the new Kingpin, so he asks what he did wrong to bring Daredevil down upon his weapons smuggling operation. Jigsaws thinking he can give Matt a cut of the money, which is basically how he did it with Wilson Fisk. Matt rejects Jigsaw and has his office bodyguards, (the two big black men last seen in DD2 #58) kick Jigsaw out. 

Cut to later this same day. Matt is having lunch with Natasha in Soho. Natasha asks just what happened last night. Matt explains hes legally married, and still in love for that matter, and thats why he didnt follow through on having sex last night. Matt turns around and asks Natasha to explain why shes REALLY here. She starts to explain she thinks someones put a price on her head, but just then, someone opens fire on the little caf where theyre having lunch! 

References: 

Pg. 1: In the scene where the head of the CIA is talking to another politician about the Widow, the CIA director says, I asked Fury to bring in the Widow. And instead, he tipped her off and two days later I have to read this headline on every paper on the Eastern Seaboard. So its two days ago that that scene between Fury and the Director happened, as shown in DD2 #61. 

Also on pg. 1: The CIA director says, The trade is the Widow for Madame Hydrathe President needs Madame Hydra. Its an election year. He needs her. Just figured Id point out the reference to it being an election year. 

Daredevil #63 
The Widow Pt. 3 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev 

Appearances: Daredevil, Black Widow, Jigsaw, New Character: Quinn 

Synopsis: ALL EVENTS HAPPEN ON SAME DAY AS THE END OF LAST ISSUE. 

Now we see things from the assassin's point of view. We see him on a nearby rooftop, aiming his machine gun down at Matt and Natasha, as they eat lunch, and he opens fire on them. He tells us that he's been ordered to make it look like gang warfare, with lots of extra people getting shot in the hit. 

But Matt's extra senses smelt the gun powder, and he and Natasha duck under the table just in time. Mere moments later, Daredevil jumps up on to the rooftop, and starts to pummel the assassin, who's name he informs us is Quinn, a CIA operative. The assassin flips out a device, and turns it on, which emits a high pitched shriek, that only dogs, (and Daredevil) can hear. Daredevil collapses to the ground in agony. Just then Natasha shows up, to pick up the fight, but Quinn shoots her through the shoulder and tosses her off the side of the building. She lands in a garbage dumpster down below. 

She climbs back up to the roof to find Quinn gone, (having fled the now botched asssassination). She destroys the device messing with DD's head, and they go back down to the cafe, and help the people wounded in the assasination attempt. 

Cut to later that evening. Back at Matt's house, Matt dresses Natasha's wound, and finally gets her to confess as to why she's here. She says she was called in by Nick Fury, but she knows this was Fury's way of tipping her off that someone was after her, because "a big-time covert SHIELD operative like me? Never, ever, EVER do we get called in." So she needed to lay low for a while, but decided it'd be best for her to hide in plain sight. As Matt's in the media spotlight with his DD mess, she figured this was as good a place as any. But she says she didn't realize they'd attempt to kill her in public. She tells Matt that she does miss him, and still loves him, but that's not the reason she came back here. 

Before anything else can happen, Matt's senses pick up on others breaking into the house. Jigsaw's back, with a group of armed thugs, and he's determined to make Murdock pay. 

References: 

None, actually, that I can see. That's a first. 

Daredevil #62 
The Widow Pt. 2 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev 

Appearances: Daredevil, Black Widow, Jigsaw, Quinn, CIA Director Wallace, The Red Guardian. 

Synopsis: PICKS RIGHT UP WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE, AND IS SPREAD OVER A FEW DAYS. 

pg. 1-2: Narrative caption reads: "SHIELD Helicarrier. Floating world headquarters of the UN peacekeeping task force. Present location: 1000 feet over Langley, Virginia" 

Nick Fury is looking at the online addition of the Daily Bugle, the headline of which reads: Murdock Mowdown: Gunfire rings out for lunchtime lawyer and his mystery gal pal. 

He quickly concludes that the Widow is hiding in plain sight with Murdock. 

Pg. 3-11: Cut back to the scene at Murdocks house. Murdock has slipped out the back and is climbing up on a neighbors roof. He dials up the police on his cellphone, and tells them someones breaking into his house, (the police dont believe him at first, telling him to put on his costume and kick their butts if hes Matt Murdock). Murdock calls back 911 and pretends to be a neighbor, who sees someone breaking into Murdocks house, (this works better). Murdock says he cant risk having a fight in his own house, because the perps will say Murdock beat them up, and itll give more evidence to Murdock being Daredevil. 

So Jigsaw and his men climb up the stairs inside the house, only to find the Black Widow, (wearing only a bath towel) upstairs. She toys with them, but then they hear the cops coming, and Jigsaws men flee the scene. Jigsaw in turn gets his butt kicked by Natasha, (who turns around and plays helpless girl as the cops burst inside). 

Matt comes back down and across the street as the cops are hauling Jigsaw away. A police officer thanks Matt for all his hard work as DD, and says hell make sure they throw the book at Jigsaw. 

Pg. 12: Cut to later that night. Natasha and Matt are gathering up their stuff, preparing to flee Matts house. Matt says that Natashas assassin is still after her, and this house isnt safe. Just then, Natasha gets a message on her wristwatch from Fury, telling the two of them to sit tight, to spend the night there. Theyre going to be bait to draw Quinn out. Furys going to nail the assassin. 

Pg. 13-15: The next morning. We see the assassin Quinn again taking aim at Matt and Natasha, as they step out their front door. Hes on a nearby rooftop. Hes about to fire, when Natasha looks right up at him and blows him a kiss. Just then, a tranquilizer dart hits Quinn in the neck. Fury and a bunch of SHIELD agents are on the scene, to take the assassin into custody. The danger now over with, Natasha kisses Matt goodbye, and they go their separate ways. 

Pg. 16: Narrative caption reads: Morning. So I guess this is the next day. We learn that during the last 24 hours, Fury has been interrogating the assassin, to learn who hired him to take out the Widow. Fury calls up CIA Director Wallace, and tells him that he knows Wallace hired Quinn, (a former CIA operative whos now a mercenary). Fury tells Wallace hes not to do anything unlawful like this again, or hell send a file on Wallace to the email account of J. Jonah Jameson. 

Pg. 17, panels 1-5: Narrative caption reads: Stara Zagora Prison, Bulgaria. A guard opens up the prison cell holding Madame Hydra, and lets her go free. 

Pg. 17, panel 6, plus pg. 18-19: Cut to whats probably a short time later. The Black Widow enters the room of the Bulgarian diplomat whom originally asked for the Widow in exchange for Madame Hydra. It turns out this is a former husband of the Black Widow, whom she refers to as Alexi and also as The Red Guardian. A former Soviet superspy? She thought him to be dead, but shes now discovered that hes come to power in a new guise here in Bulgaria. She chastises him for letting Madame Hydra, a known terrorist, go free, just because he wasnt able to get her. She says 22 SHIELD agents are already on the scene, and then pushes her communicator button and says, Avengers Assemble and we see an Avengers jet flying towards the castle, which is the apparent stronghold of the Red Guardian. Thats how the scene ends, but the implication is they take the Red Guardian into custody. Question: Have we ever heard of this Red Guardian before now? 

EDIT: I just checked the MCP. Yes, he's listed as: 

RED GUARDIAN II/ALEXI ALANOVICH SHOSTAKOV 

His last appearance was in A 354 it seems. 

Pg. 20-22: Cut to a different scene. Outside Milla Donovans apartment, in the pouring rain, Matt Murdock approaches her. He asks for Milla to reconsider the annulment, because he swears he still loves her. She says hes mentally unwell, and not in a position to determine whom he loves or doesnt love. He hands her the annulment paper, saying he signed it. He just wanted one last chance to get her to reconsider. But he says, But I do know I love you. Because I love you enough to give you this-this thing that I wholeheartedly do NOT want to give you. And he walks away, in the pouring rain*sniff* 

References: 

Page 1: The online addition to the Daily Bugle, (which I must say, they did a really good job of making this look like an authentic newspaper website), has the following headlines and tidbits: 

"NYC weather: 85 degrees, partly cloudy 

Filipino truck driver freed in Iraq 

Clinton aide investigated on terror memos 

U.N. weapon inspectors bound for Iraq 

Greenspan: Fed may up rates on inflation 

Bush: Reelection will ensure US safety 

7/26/04 3:57 EST" 

Now that's in very small print, (and I actually can't tell whether that's a 26 or a 28 on the date) and I'll just say once again that I don't put as much emphasis on stuff written down on paper as what's spoken by characters, but then again, maybe using that date will help out placement on the calender. 

Pg. 11: As the police are taking away Jigsaw, one of the officers says to Murdock, Hey, last week you handed me that Yakuza collar. Wanted to thank you. To which Matt replies, You, uh, you have me mistaken for somebody else. So I guess the final battle against the Yakuza, (as seen in DD2 #60) happened last week. 

Pg. 13: As Quinn narrates to us, (he likes to talk to himself) he mentions that Natasha and Matt have been at each others side for 39 hours and counting. That sounds about right for the length of time theyre depicted together in this story arc. 

Pg. 15: As Natasha and Matt go their separate ways, we see falling leaves in the wind and on the sidewalk, (which would indicate Autumn, to me). 

Pg. 20-22: As noted above, its raining in this scene. 

And thats all for this arc. Next issue is a stand alone issue, but its giving me continuity headaches, so Ill handle it alone in a separate thread.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 09:14 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Kevin, 

Just wanted to thank you quickly for the posts on DD2. The backlog of analyses is building faster than I can add the issues to the calendar, and tomorrow I get a whole new batch of comics to deal with. Bear with me; I'll get to this... 

I really appreciate everyone's posts -- I'm dealing with Venom and Witches, and Runaways and DD are on deck. 

Paul
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Oct 2004 05:39 pm
By SeanCurtin

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
RED GUARDIAN II/ALEXI ALANOVICH SHOSTAKOV 

His last appearance was in A 354 it seems. 
<<<


Of course, in that arc he was a ghost-zombie type undead creature. Then again, so was Count Nefaria. Legion of the Unliving stories, sigh. 

-Sean

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Posted: 13 Oct 2004 07:24 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Just wanted to thank you quickly for the posts on DD2. The backlog of analyses is building faster than I can add the issues to the calendar, and tomorrow I get a whole new batch of comics to deal with. Bear with me; I'll get to this... 

I really appreciate everyone's posts -- I'm dealing with Venom and Witches, and Runaways and DD are on deck. 
<<<

Take your time Paul. I'm in no rush.  There's a lot of chronology reviews up right now, and it's a lot for all of us to sort through, you in particular, "Mr. Calender!"  


Quote: 
>>>
Of course, in that arc he was a ghost-zombie type undead creature. Then again, so was Count Nefaria. Legion of the Unliving stories, sigh. 
<<<

Oh, so he's dead? Well, the story makes mention of that: Natasha comments on her thinking he was dead. Still, how do you come back from being a zombie?!?! 

Gee, Bendis showing blatent disregard for what's happened in other stories!! Who would've thought it! 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2004 07:33 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Oh, so he's dead? Well, the story makes mention of that: Natasha comments on her thinking he was dead. Still, how do you come back from being a zombie?!?! 
<<<

A number of the "undead" members of the various Legions of the Unliving have later been revealed to have never actually died in the first place. Off the top of my head, Frankenstein's monster, Green Goblin, Nighthawk, Count Nefaria and now the Red Guardian have all done this. 

-Sean

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Posted: 13 Oct 2004 07:38 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
A number of the "undead" members of the various Legions of the Unliving have later been revealed to have never actually died in the first place. Off the top of my head, Frankenstein's monster, Green Goblin, Nighthawk, Count Nefaria and now the Red Guardian have all done this. 
<<<

Well crap. Guess I can't really grumble about Bendis too much on this one then...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Thread 104

Posted: 28 Sep 2004 01:55 pm    Post subject: Venom #11-13
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

VENOM #11-13 

Christ, what a mess. Somewhere in issues #11-18, Daniel Way seems to have abandoned all hope of telling a coherent story, and just focussed on trying to disentangled the continuity quagmire created by the conflicting version of Venom in PETER PARKER, SPIDER-MAN (which, allegedly, was not part of the original plan). The first part of that is "Patterns", running through VENOM #11-13. This is a flashback story which leads into issue #1 and explains where the duplicate Venom (the one in this book) came from. 

A note on Frankie and Vic: By this point it's apparent that "Bob" just has a horde of the bloody things. They're all clones and more of them keep showing up all the time. I'm not going to bother ascribing numbers to them - it's futile. It's like trying to track Generic HYDRA Soldiers I through XXVI. However, where it's clear that we're dealing with a specific Frankie or Jen clone, I'll flag that up. Suffice to say that EVERYONE in Bob's facilities is Frankie and Vic. 

There are ALSO two Bobs - one in New York, one in New Mexico. The implication is that both are colonies of the alien creatures, like the Suit. The New York one wears a suit, the New Mexico one wears a lab coat. 

* VENOM #11. "Two years ago." Queens. Venom (Eddie Brock) has just beaten up Spider-Man. The Fantastic Four appear and save Spider-Man. During the fight, part of Venom's tongue is torn off. Using a device built by Reed, they separate the symbiote from Brock. Sue holds them in separate force fields. The FF leave with Brock, the symbiote, and the unconscious Spider-Man (intending to get him medical treatment). They do not notice the severed tongue. An unnamed passer-by grabs the tongue fragment, and takes it home to his apartment in Brooklyn. There, he tries to sell it on Ebay. Almost immediately, Frankie and Vic turn up in a helicopter, attack the apartment with ludicrously excessive firepower, and recover the tongue. A series of Frankies and Vics then convey 
the tongue to Bob's facility in Mesa Verde, New Mexico. 

Meanwhile, Spider-Man wakes up at Four Freedoms Plaza (sic - the art and dialogue both confirm that it's NOT the Baxter Building). Reed is using the little metal insects [the ones that make up the Suit in earlier issues] to examine the symbiote. Reed explains that he recovered them on "one of our more far-flung expeditions" and that they have shown particular interest in examining the symbiote. [The implication is that this is the colony which will go on to beocme the Suit. Another colony is already Bob.] 

[The FF are wearing blue costumes with black rings around the neck, black gloves, boots and belts, and white circles in the chest with "4" in them.] 

Characters: Venom I, Eddie Brock, Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, Bob-NY, Bob-NM, Frankies & Vics, the Suit. 

* VENOM #12. "Nineteen months ago." The New Mexico facility. The tongue has been grown into a second Venom symbiote. Unfortunately, Venom II has proven uncontrollable. Rather than bonding with a host, it just kills them. Bob appears and proposes sending in two hosts at once. Venom still kill them, but behaves somewhat differently. Bob declares that Venom is ready to be transferred to the Arctic facility. 

Four Freedoms Plaza. Nick Fury and SHIELD arrive to take Eddie Brock and Venom into custody - apparently both of them have been there for the last five months! During this period, Reed says that he has diagnosed Eddie's brain cancer [tying in with the PPSM storyline]. One of the little insects jumps onto Fury and leaves with him, presumably going on to become the Suit. 

New Mexico; Perry (from issue #1) arrives to pick up the symbiote and transfer it to the Arctic. 

Characters: Venom I, Eddie Brock, Venom II, Bob-NM, Bob-NY, Frankies & Vics, Mr Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Nick Fury, Suit, Perry. 

* VENOM #13, pages 1-21. "One month ago." (In other words, the immediate run-up to issue #1.) The scientists at the Arctic facility are frustrated with their assignment to monitor Venom II; the experiments they are being given to do seem pointless. (Which they are - the Arctic facility is only there to hold Venom.) After a conference call with Bob-NY, Bob-NY decides to release the Venom symbiote. It promptly slaughters everyone except Perry, and adopts him as a host. 

SHIELD HQ. Nick Fury takes a phone call from Reed Richards (not seen). They discuss Eddie and the original Venom symbiote, who both escaped the Vault last night. Fury activates the untested Suit, and drops him in the Arctic, with strict instructions to deny all contact with SHIELD and claim to be an alien. 

Characters: Venom II, Perry, Bob-NY, assorted staff of the Arctic facility who all die so they don't matter, Nick Fury, Mr Fantastic (behind the scenes), Venom I (bts), Eddie Brock (bts) 

* VENOM #13, pages 22-23. "Four days later." Perry is still stuck in the facility with Venom. Patricia Robertson arrives to return some movies, and we've come full circle and reached the start of issue #1. 

Characters: Venom II, Perry.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 Sep 2004 08:40 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, Paul. 

I'll work on incorporating your analyses into the calendar next week, after I return from a trip. 

A clarification: since these entire issues are set in the past, I assume that we do not cite these as flashbacks. The temporal references ("two years ago," "nineten months ago," etc.) are relative to other issues of this book, not to other material (e.g. framing sequences) in these same issues. 

And one quick comment: 
Quote: 
>>>
"One month ago." (In other words, the immediate run-up to issue #1.)  
<<<

I think this means one month before the end of VENOM 10 (pages 20-22), which occurs "eighteen days" after VENOM 10 (18-19), which in turn is a few days after VENOM 1.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Sep 2004 03:03 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Correct, there are no framing sequences in these stories. It's a matter of taste whether you treat them as flashbacks; obviously, if you're reading them in the context of the series as a whole, they're flashbacks. As individual issues, they're simply set in the past.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 29 Sep 2004 06:29 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

So what is MCP convention for listing these issues?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Sep 2004 07:24 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The convention is not to mark them as flashbacks - compare the Flashback Month issues, or the really out-of-sequence back-up strips in CLASSIC X-MEN (some of which were set in the past, even relative to the reprinted lead story).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 11 Oct 2004 08:48 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Hey, Paul. I'm finally getting around to trying to place VENOM 11-13. 

Quote: 
>>>
Nick Fury and SHIELD arrive to take Eddie Brock and Venom into custody - apparently both of them have been there for the last five months!  
<<<

Not necessarily. VENOM 12 occurs "nineteen months ago," and VENOM 11 occurs "two years ago," but "two years" doesn't necessarily mean 24 months; it can be anything from 13 to 35 months. It sounds like VENOM 12 occurs days after VENOM 11, and nineteen months ago is two years ago. 


Quote: 
>>>
[The FF are wearing blue costumes with black rings around the neck, black gloves, boots and belts, and white circles in the chest with "4" in them.]  
<<<

I think the FF may hold the key to placing issues 11-13 and thus the entire VENOM series thus far. Here's what I know: 

** The costumes you describe were introduced in FF3 39. 
** There are no appreciable continuity breaks between FF3 39 and page 7 of FF3 45. (And the Baxter Building reappears in FF3 40.) 
** There is a break of several days between pages 7 and 8 of FF3 45, but Ben is not with the team during that break and the Torch can't control his flame. 
** From page 8 of FF3 45 through FF3 49, Johnny needs a "robo-tech suit" to control his flame. 
** Sue becomes visibly pregnant in FF3 49 and has Valeria in FF3 54. 

Thus, if all four members of the FF appear in those costumes, Johnny is in control of his flame, and Sue is not visibly pregnant, then VENOM 11 will have to occur after FF3 54. 

Checking the current calendar for FF3 54, we see it in early March of Year 21. Assuming VENOM 11 occurs shortly after this, and VENOM 12 shortly after that, then VENOM 13 would occur in September of Year 22 (eighteen months later -- "nineteen months" minus "one month ago") and VENOM 14-18 would occur in October of Year 22 (earlier in the month of the Halloween of FF 517). Of course, all this would mean that VENOM 11 would be one year ago, not "two years" ago.  

Now that I've set all that up...it can't work that way! Unless I'm mistaken, SPECSM 1 must occur after VENOM 18 in Eddie Brock's chronology, and SPECSM 1 has to occur quite some time before October of Year 22. Argh. 

So we seem to be faced with a choice: 
1) Consider that quite a bit more than 19 months have passed since FF3 54, and let's face it, it never pays to lengthen the amount of Marvel time  ; 
2) Chalk the FF's costumes in VENOM 11 up to artist error; 
3) Disregard those temporal references to "two years" and "nineteen months" ago. 

Much to y'all's shock, I'm prepared to go with option #3. Maybe the "two years" reference is to "two months?" I have FF3 54 in early March of Year 21. I could, for example, place VENOM 11 and 12 in early April of Year 21 (just prior to the Kang War proper), VENOM 13 (leading into VENOM 1) in May of Year 21, and VENOM 14-18 in June of Year 21. Then SPECSM 1 occurs in November of that year, as currently on the calendar. 

Question: what do the FF's costumes look like in VENOM 17-18? The same as in VENOM 11? They would in the scenario above. 

Okay, enough babbling. Reactions (assuming, of course, that I'm making any sense)?
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 12 Oct 2004 05:53 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 11 Oct 2004 09:11 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I would think that the presence of Four Freedoms Plaza, in both art and dialogue, would be a better indicator of where to place the books. 

How many "years ago" was Onslaught? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 06:08 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I would think that the presence of Four Freedoms Plaza, in both art and dialogue, would be a better indicator of where to place the books. 
<<<

Ah, yes. That's right. So we're talking before Onslaught here. I guess those costumes are not the ones I figured they were. 


Quote: 
>>>
How many "years ago" was Onslaught?  
<<<

Four years ago -- October of Year 18. But if VENOM 11-12 get placed way back then, doesn't that mess up Eddie Brock's chronology?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 07:25 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Dunno -- what was Venom's status at the time? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 09:19 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
I would think that the presence of Four Freedoms Plaza, in both art and dialogue, would be a better indicator of where to place the books. 
<<<
Ah, yes. That's right. So we're talking before Onslaught here. I guess those costumes are not the ones I figured they were. 
<<< 

Here's a problem, though. The FF never wore the costumes shown while Four Freedoms Plaza was around. The blue costumes with black trim went away in the late #250s, while the Baxter Building was still around. The FF don't return to the blue/black look until FF3 1 (and that was a somewhat modified version of the suit). 

There are two options: either the suits or the building must be rendered *shudder* topical (which I detest doing), or the timeframe is post-Onslaught, after the heroes return. Despite being blown up by the Thunderbolts, we see on several occassions that the remnants of Four Freedoms Plaza are still habitable and at least partially functioning. It's possible the nanites (or whatever they're called) were still residing in the building and Reed went back to collect them. 

-- Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 09:54 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I'm pretty sure we see the big old "4" on top of the building, though. As I recall, that bit was never rebuilt post-Onslaught -- the T-Bolts made it into a big lightning-logo, and then the Plaza was moved to the moon. 

Is there a time post-Onslaught when the "4" on top of the Plaza is rebuilt? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 10:07 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I'm pretty sure we see the big old "4" on top of the building, though. As I recall, that bit was never rebuilt post-Onslaught -- the T-Bolts made it into a big lightning-logo, and then the Plaza was moved to the moon. 

Is there a time post-Onslaught when the "4" on top of the Plaza is rebuilt? 
<<< 

No, but my point was that SOMETHING is going to have to be tossed out. The building, the costumes and the cirucmstances simply do not all work together. You either have to toss out the costume reference entirely, the building reference entirely, or the building reference in part. My preference, as always, is the throwing out as little as possible and, for me, with regards to the FF in this story, that is the exterior shot of Four Freedoms Plaza. (IIRC, there were only one or two in the whole series that actually showed the "4".) 

Now, since this is Venom we're talking about, that's naturally subject to Eddie Brock's chronology. I don't know Eddie's status circa 1998 (our time) where the FF's appearances would suggest this appears.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 06:00 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Now, since this is Venom we're talking about, that's naturally subject to Eddie Brock's chronology. I don't know Eddie's status circa 1998 (our time) where the FF's appearances would suggest this appears. 
<<<

Well, I don't know about 1998, but in 1999, when Eddie Brock reappears in the rebooted PP:SM, he gets back together with the symbiote, after being seperated from it for what seems to have been a good chunk of time, (though just how much time is debateable). 

Venom's chronology looks like this currently: 

V:F 3 
PPSM2 8-BTS 
PPSM2 9 
PPSM2 10 
ASM2 12 

V:F is listed as "Venom: Finale" in the Key, (which I don't have). I would suspect that this is where Eddie and the symbiote were seperated, (and it's also the end of all of the atrocious Venom "Lethal Protecter" miniseries of the 90's).
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 08:48 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
My preference, as always, is the throwing out as little as possible and, for me, with regards to the FF in this story, that is the exterior shot of Four Freedoms Plaza. (IIRC, there were only one or two in the whole series that actually showed the "4".)  
<<<

I, too, am inclined to disregard that Four Freedoms Plaza rendering in VENOM 11. After all, Paul O. reported that in VENOM 17, Four Freedoms Plaza is seen but is called the Baxter Building, so we know the artist was in error at least once. Then again, Paul also reported that both art and dialogue in VENOM 11 confirmed Four Freedoms Plaza as Four Freedoms Plaza. 


Kevin, what are you suggesting as a viable spot for Eddie/Venom in VENOM 11 and 12 relative to their chronology? Sometime after ASM2 12, and thus after PP:SM 12? Do VENOM 11 and 12 have to occur before another tale?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 09:25 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Kevin, what are you suggesting as a viable spot for Eddie/Venom in VENOM 11 and 12 relative to their chronology? Sometime after ASM2 12, and thus after PP:SM 12? Do VENOM 11 and 12 have to occur before another tale? 
<<<

All's I'm saying is that if you're looking into the Venom of circa 1998/1999, you have to place it before Eddie and the Symbiote are seperated in Venom: Finale, or after they get back together in PP:SM 8 and 9. I don't have the Venom: Finale miniseries, so I can't shed any more insight. 

I can't keep track of this Fantastic Four business...but I did notice you saying this Paul: 

Quote: 
>>>
It sounds like VENOM 12 occurs days after VENOM 11, and nineteen months ago is two years ago. 
<<<

I thought going by Paul O's notes above, VENOM 12 occurs 5 months after VENOM 11? 

I think there's going to be some time constraint issues if you try and put the 5 months that Eddie and the symbiote were in the custody of the FF after PP:SM 12...do you have 5 free months for Eddie to be in custody on the calender during this time? Wasn't Reed pretending to be Doom around this period?
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 09:54 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

He's saying that if you pretend that the "two years" reference is an estimate or rounded-up, you can make it mean "around 19 months". Meaning that Venom WASN'T in custody for five full months, but a shorter period of time. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2004 06:18 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
He's saying that if you pretend that the "two years" reference is an estimate or rounded-up, you can make it mean "around 19 months". Meaning that Venom WASN'T in custody for five full months, but a shorter period of time.  


Kind of right. I'm not suggesting that "two years" is rounded up from "nineteen months." I'm saying that 19 months ago can actually be two years ago. Let's say our frame of reference is April of 2004. Nineteen months before is September 2002. 2002 is two years before 2004. That's all. 

I'm proposing that VENOM 12 occurs mere days after VENOM 11.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2004 10:22 am    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
I think there's going to be some time constraint issues if you try and put the 5 months that Eddie and the symbiote were in the custody of the FF after PP:SM 12...do you have 5 free months for Eddie to be in custody on the calender during this time? Wasn't Reed pretending to be Doom around this period? 
<<<

It was ever so slightly later. Spider-Man appears in PPSM 14 just before FF #27. The Reed-as-Doom thing started at the very end of FF #25 and ran through FF #31.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2004 07:34 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
It was ever so slightly later. Spider-Man appears in PPSM 14 just before FF #27. The Reed-as-Doom thing started at the very end of FF #25 and ran through FF #31. 
<<<

So which comes first on the calender: ASM2 12 and PP:SM 12, or FF3 #25?
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2004 08:55 pm  
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
So which comes first on the calender: ASM2 12 and PP:SM 12, or FF3 #25? 
<<<

ASM2 12 leads into PP:SM 12. FF3 25 occurs four weeks later.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2004 01:15 pm    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

For what it's worth, my inclination is to keep the Four Freedoms Plaza reference in the flashback story and ignore the costumes. One FF costume looks much like any other, frankly, unless you're paying very close attention. Four Freedoms Plaza, on the other hand, seems to be a deliberate use of a piece of Marvel history to give a sense of the timeframe. I suspect it just never really occurred to anyone to double check what costumes the FF were wearing at that point. 

True, the artist wrongly repeats the same building in the establishing shot in the present day, but the dialogue firmly corrects the point.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2004 04:58 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
One FF costume looks much like any other, frankly 
<<<

Bite your tongue!

			*	*	*

Thread 105

Posted: 13 Oct 2004 05:44 pm    Post subject: X 128-130
By Dhall

128 
Characters: 
Cyclops 
Emma Frost 
Phoenix IV 
Professor X 
Cannonball 
Darkstar 
Multiple Man 
M II 
Rictor 
Siryn 
Fantomex/Weapon XIII/Jean-Phillipe 

Weapon XII (BTS) 

Plot: Jean shows extreme signs of Phoenix-ness. Cyclops turns to Emma for marriage councling. X-Corp Europe answers an emergency call to the Chunnel. Jean Grey and Xavier meet Fantomex. 

129 
Characters: 
Phoenix IV 
Professor Charles Xavier 
Darkstar 
M II 

Fantomex /Weapon XIII/Jean-Phillipe 
E.V.A. 
Weapon XII 
Corporal Animal 
Plot: Jean and Xavier meet E.V.A. Fantomex takes them to his home where they meet his mother and see a disc filled with Weapon Plus program details. All of these (except E.V.A.) are misdirection. Meanwhile, in the Chunnel, M and Darkstar fight Weapon XIIs controlled creatures. 

130 
Characters: 
Phoenix IV 
Professor Charles Xavier 
Cannonball 
Darkstar 
M II 
Multiple Man 
Rictor 
Siryn 
Fantomex / Weapon XIII 
E.V.A. 
Weapon XII/Zona Cluster 6 

Flashback: 
Wolverine @ weapon X facility 


Plot: Both Fantomex (Weapon XIII) and Weapon XII were released in a faked train wreck, which was designed to drawn in some of Xaviers mutants, in order to test Weapon XII. Both are products of the Weapon Plus project, which is an outgrowth of the earlier Weapon Projects, including the original Weapon X project that gave Wolverine his admantium. Jean and Fantomex head into the Chunnel. Xavier takes over Madrox to use his duplicates to fight Weapon XII. Fantomex kills Darkstar, who had been touched and taken over by Weapon XII. Xavier and MAdrox fight Weapon XII, as Jean and Fantomex investigate the pods. He finds the shutoff switch, and uses it to kill Weapon XII. Fantomex explains to Jean that what shed seen earlier was his misdirection, that he is a product of the Weapon Plus project, and that he wont let himself be used as a soldier. Jean agrees to block the tunnel, so that Fantomex can escape. Soldiers show up, and give Xavier an official cover story involving biological weapons being released in the Eurotunnel. 
Flashback: The Original Weapon X Facility, snow falling outside, Logan is strapped to a table, while various probes inject him with something. He has hair and a beard. 
Note that in the fb, Logan is NOT floating in a tank, he has some wires attached to him, but not nearly as many as seen in M/CP 72-73, and they are doing something painful. I believe that this is before they throw him in the tank, before they shave his head, and before they implant the admantium. They are probably attaching the wires and conduits seen in M/CP 72 and 73. This is why I am placing this scene where I am. 
Listings: 

Wolverine 

M/CP 72 
M/CP 73 
*X 130-FB 
M/CP 72 
M/CP 73 
M/CP 74 
M/CP 75-FB 
M/CP 75 
M/CP 76 
M/CP 77 
M/CP 78 
M/CP 79 
M/CP 80 
M/CP 81 
M/CP 82 
M/CP 83 
M/CP 84 
W2 166-FB 
M/CP 84 

Cyclops 
X 126 
BHOOD 8 
X 127 
*X 128 


Emma Frost 
X 125 
X 126 
*X 128 

Phoenix IV 
X 126 
UX 407 
XX 18 
X 127 
XX 19 
*X 128 
*X 129 
*X 130 

Professor X 
X 126 
BHOOD 8 
X 127 
*X 128 
*X 129 
*X 130 


Cannonball 
UX 388 
XFOR 114 
XFOR 115-FB 
XFOR 117 
*X 128 
*X 130 


Darkstar 
MAXSEC 3 
A3 42-FB 
A3 42 
TB 57 
*X 128 
*X 129 
*X 130 

Multiple Man 
UX 406 
UX 407 
*X 128 
*X 130 

M II 
UX 405 
UX 406 
*X 128 
*X 129 
*X 130 


Rictor 
XFOR 70 
XFOR 76-FB 
XFOR 76 
XFOR '99 
*X 128 
*X 130 

Siryn 
W2 154 
W2 155 
DPOOL3 56 
DPOOL3 61 
DPOOL 3 69 
*X 128 
*X 130 

Fantomex/Weapon XIII/Jean-Phillipe 
*X 128 
*X 129 
*X 130 


E.V.A 
*X 129 
*X 130 

Weapon XII/Zona Cluster 6 
*X 128-BTS 
*X 129 
*X 130 

Animal, Corporal 
*X 129

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2004 07:19 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Are these words from the future? 

I know you haven't gotten there yet, but in X #144 Fantomex's real name is revealed as "Charlie Cluster 7". "Jean-Phillipe" is evidently an alias. 

Also, since we're filing Weapon X under "Wolverine", Weapon XIII under "Fantomex", and Weapon XIV under "Stepford Cuckoos", then Weapon XII should probably be listed under the codename the World prepared for him -- Huntsman. Or, in terms of the MCP, Huntsman III. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2004 08:38 pm    
By Dhall

Fair enough, and thanks for pointing out the names...I'm kind of just going through everything sequentially......but we might as well get all the listing details worked out as we go along.... 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Oct 2004 09:46 pm    
By the Krayon

when were the Stepford Cuckoos revealed as Weapon IV? 

i've never heard of this before. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------the-Krayon

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Oct 2004 08:48 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

There are some vague bits of dialogue in New X-Men #154 that hint at the possibility, but they're not at all conclusive. I don't think there's anything there that's concrete enough to justify listing the Cuckoos as Weapon XIV.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Oct 2004 11:43 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I'd call it pretty conclusive, myself. 

Either way, we won't be listing the Cuckoos as Weapon XIV -- we'll be listing Weapon XIV as the Cuckoos. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 106

Posted: 29 Sep 2004 11:56 am    Post subject: Venom #14-18
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

VENOM #14-18 
"Twist" 

This is a remarkably convoluted storyline, which I've simplified enormously in the summary below, by explaining motivations and impostures which often don't become clear until later in the series. The storyline is left unresolved. 

This arc appears to make clear that while there are multiple Bob bodies, there is only one actual Bob - "Bob" is a collective name for a colony of insects with a shared hivemind. It seems that all Bobs are equally valid versions of the same Bob, rather than one being an original. 

Issues #16-17 contain some expository dialogue (but no flashbacks) explaining the origin of the Suit and Bob's race. According to the Suit, their hivemind species was first brought to Earth in biblical times. The Suit claims to have been there in person (which may simply indicate that the species hivemind has continued unbroken so far as he is concerned). 

According to the Suit, his species were brought to earth for the purpose of wiping out the human race. They had been told that humanity was a danger, and believed this to be a just cause. They made some headway on wiping out humanity. The Biblical flood story is a garbled account of these events. However, the Suit's race discovered that they were being manipulated by a single entity (whose name the Suit does not know). That entity was keeping a single chosen race immune (by implication, the Jews). The Suit's race concluded that they were being manipulated into committing religious genocide. They abandoned the plan and left Earth. 

However, a small number of the race were left behind. Cut off from the colony, they mutated, and became the Bob colony. They apparently resumed the original mission. 

This, at least, is the Suit's understanding of events. 

We also establish that the Frankie and Vic clones are collectively known as the Ark. 

"Twist" takes place over two days, with a full moon. No seasonal refernces. Day 1 is pages 1 to 9 of issue #14; the rest of the storyline is day 2. 


* VENOM #14, pages 1-9. Patricia Robertson/Venom II has arrived in Manhattan. Thanks to the control collar she picked up in "Run", she largely has control of the symbiote. SHIELD locate her, and Nick Fury makes plans to go after her. Bob poses as the Suit and tells Patricia that there has been a change of plan. He gives her new orders. Following those orders, Patricia uses Venom II's shapechanging powers to pose as a blonde girl and pick up a SHIELD agent in a bar. They head off together. 

Characters: Venom II, Patricia Robertson, Nick Fury, SHIELD, Bob, the Ark. 

* VENOM #14, pages 10-22. Next night. Patricia has killed the SHIELD agent and replaced him (again, using Venom II's shapechanging powers for disguise). A SHIELD team led by Nick Fury heads out to capture Venom. Not realising that there are two, they attack and subdue the real Venom, Eddie Brock. Following Bob's orders, Patricia/Venom II kills all the SHIELD officers on her helicopter and seizes the controls. She opens fire on the other SHIELD agents. Spider-Man arrives and brings down the helicopter with his webbing. Bob remotely deactivates Patricia's control collar, and she turns fully into Venom II. The two Venoms confront one another. 

Characters: Venom I, Venom II, Eddie Brock, Patricia Robertson, Nick Fury, Spider-Man, SHIELD, Bob, the Ark. 

* VENOM #15. Direct continuation. The two Venoms fight one another. Patricia re-establishes some control over Venom II and flees. Nick Fury attacks Venom I with a bazooka. Venom I defeats Fury and webs him up. He considers killing Fury, but decides to give chase to his duplicate instead. Bob arrives and cuts Fury down. He reveals himself as a superior officer, and orders Fury not to interfere with his plans any further. Fury reluctantly complies. Meanwhile, Spider-Man catches up with Venom II, but cannot make sense of Patricia's deranged ramblings. Venom I arrives and the two Venoms start fighting again. They brawl into the sewers. The real Suit appears and attacks them both. 

Characters: Venom I, Venom II, Eddie Brock, Patricia Robertson, Nick Fury, Spider-Man, SHIELD, the Suit, Bob, the Ark 

* VENOM #16. Direct continuation. The renegade Frankie clone (the one who survived the battle with Venom in issue #10 and turned on Bob after learning that she was a clone) arrives in New York, planning to kill Venom II. In the sewers, the Suit has driven away Venom I. Patricia has temporarily re-established control of Venom II, but only barely. The Frankie clone arrives and confronts Patricia and the Suit. Meanwhile, above ground, the real Venom attacks Spider-Man, wrongly assuming that he is somehow connected with the Suit. Spider-Man fends off Venom I, and leaves. 

Characters: Venom I, Venom II, Eddie Brock, Patricia Robertson, Spider-Man, the Suit, Bob, the Ark, the renegade Frankie clone 

* VENOM #17. Direct continuation. The Suit and the renegade Frankie reactivate Patricia's control collar. The Suit and Frankie compare notes on Bob. We establish that Venom II is "genetically skewed to produce a collection of reproductive hormones", and if it is reunited with the original Venom, something unspecified but apparently unpleasant will happen. The Suit comes up with a drastic and convoluted plan to thwart Bob and Venom. He delivers Patricia/Venom II to the Fantastic Four (in the Baxter Building, as confirmed by dialogue, though the art shows Four Freedoms Plaza). Then the Suit attacks a power relay station and somehow causes a blackout throughout the northeast. The blackout disrupts Bob's communications with the Ark clone agents. The Fantastic Four tell the media that they have captured Venom. Hearing this on the radio, Spider-Man goes to the Baxter Building to try and warn the FF about the second Venom. The FF brush him off and tell him not to interfere in their plan. Moments later, the real Venom arrives and attacks. 

Characters: Venom I, Venom II, Eddie Brock, Patricia Robertson, Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, the Suit, Bob, the Ark, the renegade Frankie clone 

* VENOM #18. Direct continuation. Mr Fantastic and the Human Torch immediately flee the Baxter Building in the Fantasticar, taking Patricia with them in a container. Venom does not realise that they have gone and continues to search the building for Venom II. Reed and Johnny take Patricia to a FF storage facility in midtown. Bob overpowers Reed and Johnny. Posing as the Suit, Bob releases Patricia and sends her back to the Baxter Building. Meanwhile, despite Ben and Sue's efforts to stop him interfering, Spider-Man also enters the Baxter Building. The Suit ambushes Venom I and tries to kill him. Spider-Man saves Venom, refusing to let Eddie Brock be murdered. Venom II arrives. The two Venom symbiotes merge into one (it's not clear what happens to the host bodies - whether they're both inside the symbiote, or whether Patricia is simply consumed). The reunited Venom swings happily away into the night. Bob pronounces himself satisfied with events, and says that now they must wait (presumably for the unspecified consequences mentioned in issue #17). End of series, with the plot cut off in midstream. 

Characters: Venom I, Venom II, Eddie Brock, Patricia Robertson, Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, the Suit, Bob, the Ark.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Oct 2004 03:22 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Hey, Paul. This posting is getting lost in the discussion of Venom's chronology that sprouted from your analysis VENOM 11-13. Following up on that discussion in a way that pertains to VENOM 14-18 (and apologizing for any repetition)... 

The FF appear in VENOM 17-18. What costumes do they wear? Is Sue pregnant? Is Johnny in control of his flame? 

I'm inclined to place VENOM 13, 1-10, and 14-18 after the return of the Baxter Building (in FF3 40) and after Sue delivered Valeria (in FF3 54). That would place these issues well after ASM2 23. (That would mean that the symbiote reunited with Eddie after ASM2 23 and somehow ended up in the Vault for VENOM 13.) I'm thinking of placing this series (except for issues #11-12) in May-June of Year 22 (current year), before Spectacular #1. 

So where would that place VENOM 11 and 12? If we go by the "nineteen months ago" reference relative to the end of VENOM 10, that would mean November of Year 20. Fortunately in this scenario, the "two years ago" reference works. But very unfortunately, that would put the FF in VENOM 11-12 during a time they were living in Pier 4 (not the Baxter Building OR Four Freedoms Plaza) AND wearing costumes that are nothing like you describe in your analysis of VENOM 11. It's difficult to discount BOTH the building and the costumes. I think we're going to have to disregard the temporal references to nineteen months and two years. 

PROPOSAL #1: 
How about chucking those references and ignoring (or explaining away) the costumes of VENOM 11-12 in favor of the integrity of the Four Freedoms Plaza reference in VENOM 11-12? To do so, however, may require placing VENOM 11-12 way back before FF 379. FF 379 begins the story arc that results in Reed's lengthy absence from the FF. The story arc involving a bearded Reed's return culminates in FF 412. Reed doesn't shave until FF 413, which is presumed to occur shortly after FF 412. And the story arc that starts in FF 413 segues into Onslaught. The FF never occupy Four Freedoms Plaza after that point. 

And heck if I know where in Eddie Brock's chronology he'd appear in VENOM 11-12 if it's before FF 379! 

PROPOSAL #2: 

Again, chuck the temporal references. But instead of honoring the reference to Four Freedoms Plaza in VENOM 11-12, honor the costume references in those issues. This would require really shortening the span of time between VENOM 12 and 13. Let's say that VENOM 11 occurred "two months" rather than "two years" before the end of VENOM 10. Ignore the "nineteen months ago" reference to VENOM 12 altogether (or maybe explain it as nineteen real world months back, as in, imagine VENOM 12 occurring at around the time of comics published 19 months ago??). 

This scenario would explain how Eddie/Venom became incarcerated after ASM2 23 -- he was captured in VENOM 11. The sequence would be as follows: 
ASM2 23 
VENOM 11-13 
VENOM 1-10 
VENOM 14-18 
SPECSM 1 

How do folks feel about these proposals? I'm partial to #2, but as has been noted before, something's gotta give.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 107

Posted: 16 Oct 2004 11:07 am    Post subject: XXX 1-2
By Dhall

X-Treme X-Men X-Pose 1 

Characters: 
Bishop 
Emma Frost 
Sage 
Storm 
Wolverine 
Esme 
Colonel Alexi Vazhin 
Maria Pilar Cortes 
Paul DAntoni 
Neal Conan 
Manoli Wetherell 
Nicki Yeoh 

Stuart, Alistaire, Dr. (BTS) 

Cutter Sullivan, Dervish, Paint, Porous 
Officer Mendes 

In Video: (These are fairly generic shots of the team doing stuff in Madripoor) 
Bishop, Gambit, Rogue, Sage, and Storm 

Flashbacks: All in Madripoor storyline, sometime when they could have been caught on tape. Storm flies, and uses lightning, Bishops hand glows, Sage looks at something off-camera, Rogue punches a rock, and Gambit has his arm raised. If we make the assumption that this is MBC footage (like the video we see of Rogue & Vargas in XXX 2) then we can assume that it was taken at some point when the reporter, Shanna Cho was available. She appeared in XX 11, 14, 17 and 18. These could also be from anytime in between those issues, that the X-Men appear outside, in Madripoor. 


As the Pictures of Storm have to be taken, before Khan captured her, and took her back to his base with him, they must be from XX 11. Indeed both pictures very much resemble the one on page 12 of XX 11. Based on the poses, I would put the one on page 1 of xxx 1 before pg. 12 of xx11, and the one on page 2 of xxx 1, right after it. 
So for Storm: 

XX 11 
XXX 1-FB 
XX 11 
XXX 1-FB 
XX 11 

The picture of Rogue shows her busting rocks, and she is in her red outfit. This must be before X 16, where she joins Gambit in being a captive of Khans force field. Probably before 14-15, in which she is not depicted doing any fighting. It most likely occurs in XX 13, after Rogue has been super charged by Sage. This puts in between pages 4 and 5 of XX 13. 

The picture of Sage, shows her holding onto a pillar of rock, or a stone, with no glasses on. She is wearing her regular costume. This means it most likely before the end of #12 where she switches to combat armor. She has her glasses off for part of that issue, so it would fit. The reporter is available in #11, so lets place this as an on-the-rooftop shot from #11. Sage has her glasses off for those scenes too, so this seems like a good place for it to go. Im putting it between pages 10 (where the reporter is introduced to the X-men, and Page 11, where Viper attacks. Theres really no reason, that say twenty minutes or a half hour couldnt pass between the pages, plenty of time for a reporter to get some background shots of the X-Men. 


The Picture of Bishop shows him with his right fist glowing. We can put this around the same place as the one with Sage. It could come after page 10 (after Bishop puts his gun down ) of XX 11. Possibly its during Vipers attack, or right after, but before the X-Men abandon their position on the rooftop. 


The picture of Gambit shows him up against a rock with his left arm up. It appears that at least one eye is open. He is not on a red round glowing platform, so this is not Gambit chained to the platform. (A reporter would not have been able to sneak past Khans guards to get a shot of that anyway.) So, it must come between XX 17 and 18, where Gambit is against the rock. On the first page of XXX 1, we see another shot of Gambit against a rock, with his coat on. Since he has his coat on at the beginning of XXX 18, Im placing both of these shots between 17 and 18. Possibly Gambit came to briefly between issues, and raised his arm, before they put his coat on. The reporter certainly could have followed Rogue back to the X-Men after her battle with Vargas in XXX 17, and changed her tape. 

This also gives the reporter a few BTS apps. in these flashbacks, taking the footage. 

Alternative suggestions for placement of these shots is welcome.. 


Note: X 128-130 are referenced, so this issue comes after those. Storm is in a wheelchair, though she does keep trying to exert herself. This is after the Madripoor/Khan storyline, as it is continually referenced. 

Characters: 
Archangel, Bishop, Gambit, Rogue, Sage, Storm, Wolverine 

Paul DAntoni 
Manoli Wetherell 
Neal Conan 


Cutter Sullivan, Dervish, Paint, Porous 
Officer Mendes 

ON Video Flashback: (1st fb) 
Rogue 
Vargas 

On Video: 
Nicki Yeoh (in second fb) 

In Interview footage: (3rd fb) 
Storm 
Neal Conan (BTS) 


Flashbacks: Rogue holds up a sword, and is pointing it at Vargas. Note: This is not new material, it is the same as Pages 18-19 of XX 17. 

2nd fb: After the reporters were dunked in the water, they film footage outside of Xaviers gates. This occurs directly after the reporters app. In XXX 1. 

3rd fb: Interview footage of Storm. This is new material, and comes after her app. In XXX 1 (where we see her giving an interview) and before her app. In XXX 2. 

Note: Some time must pass (the issue says a week) between the first and second parts of XXX2. Angel has white skin, and no casts so this section probably comes after UX 414. This period gives Wolverine (and other X-Men) time to make various appearances between XXX1 and XXX2. 

Listings (except for fbs from 1 so far): 
Archangel 
UX 407 
BHOOD 8 
UX 408 
UX 409 
*XXX 2 

Gambit 
XX 10 
XX 11 
XX 13 
XX 15 
XX 16 
XX 17 
*XXX 1-FB 
*XXX 1-FB 
XX 18 
XX 19 
*XXX 2 

Rogue 
XX 17 
XX 18 
XX 19 
*XXX 2 


Bishop 
XX 10 
XX 11 
*XXX 1-FB 
*XX 11 
XX 12 
XX 13 
XX 14 
XX 15 
XX 16 
XX 17 
XX 18 
XX 19 
*XXX 1 
*XXX 2 

Emma Frost 
X 126 
X 128 
*XXX 1 

Tessa/Sage 
XX 10 
XX 11 
*XXX 1-FB 
*XX 11 
XX 12 
XX 13 
XX 14 
XX 15 
XX 16 
XX 17 
XX 18 
XX 19 
*XXX 1 
*XXX 2 

Storm 
XX 11 
*XXX 1-FB 
*XX 11 
*XXX 1-FB 
*XX 11 
XX 12 
XX 13 
XX 14 
XX 15 
XX 16 
XX 17 
XX 18 
XX 19 
*XXX 1 
*XXX 2 

Wolverine 
Wolverine 
W2 184 
W2 185 
W2 186 
XX 19 
*XXX 1 
W2 183/2 
*XXX 2 


Stepford Cuckoos: Esme 
*X 125 
*X 126 
*XXX 1 

Colonel Alexi Vazhin 
X 19 
UX 383-FB 
UX 384 
*XXX 1 


Maria Pilar Cortes 
XX 1 
XX 2 
XX 3 
*XXX 1 

Paul DAntoni 
*XXX 1 
*XXX 2 

Neal Conan 
UX 200-BTS 
{UX 226} 
UX 227 
UX 264-BTS 
FF3 9 
FF3 27-BTS 
*XXX 1 
*XXX 2-FB (BTS) 
*XXX 2 

Manoli Wetherell 
UX 226 
UX 227 
FF3 9 
FF3 11-FB 
FF3 27 
*XXX 1 
*XXX 2 

Nicki Yeoh 
*XXX 1 
*XXX 2-FB 

Stuart, Alistaire, Dr. 
XFOR 102 
XFOR 115-FB 
XFOR 115 
*XXX 1 - BTS 

Sullivan, Cutter 
*XXX 1 
*XXX 2 

Dervish 
*XXX 1 
*XXX 2 

Paint 
*XXX 1 
*XXX 2 

Porous 
*XXX 1 
*XXX 2 

Mendes, Officer 
*XXX 1 
*XXX 2 

Cho, Shanna 
XX 11 
*XXX 1-FB-BTS 
*XXX 1-FB-BTS 
XX 14 
XX 17 
*XXX 1-FB-BTS 
XX 18 

She is bts, taking video footage..

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 12:56 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Great job here, Dave, especially with the placement of all the videotaped segments. You must have had to pour over every page and panel of every issue of XX to figure out where to put them. Anyway, I've inserted these FB panels into my updated copy of the calendar. Thanks!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 03:03 pm    
By Dhall

Thanks Paul, 

It was much harder to place those, than it was to place the issue itself. 
It's kind of a pain, when the panels add nothing to the storyline, but still..... 


Dave H.

			*	*	*

Thread 108

Posted: 16 Oct 2004 07:53 pm    Post subject: X 131-133
By Dhall

X 131 
Characters: 
Archangel, Beast, Cyclops, Emma Frost, Phoenix IV, Wolverine, Professor Charles Xavier 
Sabra, Cannonball, M II, Multiple Man, Rictor, Siryn 
Angel Salvatore, Beak, Skywalker 

Plot: Darkstars funeral. Logan is noted as being back from Madripoor. (I theorize that this trip is the last part of a leg that started in Japan in UX 183/2, Netsuke, and XU 39/2, then Madripoor, then Europe for the funeral.) Back in the US, Archangel (still blue) leads Beak and Angel S. and the other flyers to the Shiar ship. (Since Warren is still blue, this is before UX 410-413) Angel S. kisses Beak on a bet. Emma lectures Hank, then acts as Scotts sex therapist, finally dressing up as Phoenix. 

X 132 
Characters: 
Phoenix IV, Storm, Thunderbird, Professor Charles Xavier 
Sabra 
Quicksilver 
Polaris 
Unus 
Toad 
Shocker 
Toad-in-Waiting 
Magneto (in voice flashback) 
Plot: On the way to India, the X-Men take a side trip to Genosha. They find Unus, Toad, and Polaris. They also locate a black box recorder containing Magnetos final thoughts as Genosha is destroyed. 
Voice Flashback: Magnetos last words. 

X 133 
Characters: 
Phoenix IV, Wolverine, Professor Charles Xavier 
Feral, Sunfire, Thornn, Warpath 
Dust / Sooraya 
Fantomex 
Lilandra 
Araki 6 

Gladiator, Nrilliree, Starbolt 

Plot: India at last. Logan meets Fantomex, and rescues Dust from soldiers. Jean and Xaviers flight on Air India experiences an attempted attack, by a terrorist with a dirty bomb. Xavier and Jean handle the situation. Lilandra tries to assassinate Charles, thinking that he is Cassandra. (Warpath, Thornn, Feral, and Sunfire make for a strange group of X-Corporation Mumbai members) Araki 6 returns Lil to her people, and tells Charles that the Shiar must have no further contact with the mutants of Earth. Araki tells him that his marriage to Lilandra is annulled, and that the Phoenix has hatched. 


Listings: 

Archangel 
UX 408 
UX 409 
*X 131 
XXX 2 

Beast 
*XX 18 
*XX 19 
*X 131 

Cyclops 
*X 127 
*X 128 
*X 131 

Emma Frost 
*X 128 
*XXX 1 
*X 131 


Phoenix IV 
XX 19 
X 128 
X 129 
X 130 
*X 131 
*X 132 
*X 133 

Wolverine 
*XX 19 
*XXX 1 
*W2 183/2 
(Probably in W: Netsuke, then XU 39/2 when analyzed) 
*X 131 
*X 133 

Professor Charles Xavier 
X 130 
*X 131 
*X 132 
*X 133 


Sabra 
UX 366 
UX 368 
UX 379 
X 111-FB 
*X 131 
*X 132 

Cannonball 
X 128 
X 130 
*X 131 

M II 
X 128 
X 129 
X 130 
*X 131 

Multiple Man 
UX 407 
X 128 
X 130 
*X 131 

Rictor 
XFOR '99 
X 128 
X 130 
*X 131 

Siryn 
DPOOL 3 69 
X 128 
X 130 
*X 131 

Angel Salvatore 
X 125 
X 126 
*X 131 

Beak 
*X 125 
*X 126 
*X 131 

Skywalker 
*X 131 

Storm 
*XX 19 
*XXX 1 
*X 132 
*XXX 2 

Thunderbird III 
*XX 18 
*XX 19 
*X 132 

Quicksilver 
*X 132 
(not sure where this falls in his chronology) 

Polaris 
BS:X 3 
BS:X 5 
X 112 
UX 393 
*X 132 

Unus 
PPTSS 91 
*X 132 

Toad 
UX 388 
BSHP2 16 
TB 53 
W2 167 
*X 132 

Shocker II/ Paralyzer 
CA 343 
CA 346 
NW2 6 
*X 133 

Toad-in-Waiting 
*X 132 


Magneto (in voice flashback) 
X 113 
*X 115 
*X 132-FB 
*X 01 (as Xorn???) 

Feral 
XFOR 88 
XFOR 89 
XFOR 90 
*X 133 

Sunfire 
IFW 4 
MAXSEC 1-FB 
MAXSEC 3 
*X 133 

Thornn II 
C2 15 
XFOR 40 
XFOR 41 
C2 42 
*X 133 

Warpath 
XFOR 114 
XFOR 115-FB 
XFOR 117 
DPOOL3 61 
*X 133 

Dust/Sooraya 
*X 133 

Fantomex/ Charlie Cluster 7/Weapon XIII/Jean-Phillipe 
X 128 
X 129 
X 130 
*X 133 

Lilandra 
X 125 
X 126 
*X 133 

Araki 6 
X 124 
X 125 
X 126 
*X 133 

Gladiator II 
X 125 
X 126 
*X 133 

Nrilliree (new listing) 
*UX 155 
*UX 157 
*X 133 

Starbolt 
AWC 81 
Q 33 
STARJAM 4 
INH3 4 
*X 133

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Oct 2004 10:36 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I don't know about shoving all those Wolverine appearances right before X #131. It seems to me we've had this conversation before on the old board, but -- analysis of the short amount of time passing in the books doesn't really support it. Here's my notes on the subject: 

(All days of the week are extrapolated backwards from the "weekend" comment in X #132.) 
---- 
Tuesday 

X-TREME X-MEN X-POSE' #1 pp.1-4 
XX #10-18 were "a few weeks back". The executive producer of "Spotlight" assigns two sets of reporters to get dirt on the X-Treme X-Men. From here, it takes Neal and Manoli "a whole week" to get the X-Men's address (p.6), so this sequence takes place a week before p.6. 

---- 
Friday? 

X-TREME X-MEN X-POSE' #1 pp.5 
Reporters visit X-Corp in Paris, trying to speak to Prof. X or Archangel, both of whom are implied to be in Paris at that time. Probably at least two days after pp.1-4, as one reporter "called yesterday"  unless he called the day he got the assignment. Probably shortly before X #128-130, as THESE reporters make no mention of the Chunnel incident, and the lobby (attacked by troops in X #129) is spotless. Also, by X #131, Archangel (implied to be in Paris here) is back at the school. 

---- 
Monday 

NEW X-MEN #128-130 
One day, mostly at night. Jean and Prof. X have begun their first worldwide trip on X-Corp's behalf, beginning in Paris. Weapon XII crashes a train in the Channel Tunnel, and Darkstar is killed. 

---- 
Tuesday 

X-TREME X-MEN #24 pp. 1-6 
Cannonball helps the rescue workers at the Channel Tunnel crash site, the day after the accident (and probably same day as XXX #1 pp.6-7). The other X-Men are leaving the scene, so this is likely early morning. 

X-TREME X-MEN X-POSE' #1 pp.6-7 
After XXX #1 pp.5. Neal and Manoli reference "the incident in the Channel Tunnel", placing this after X #130, and they make a number of phone calls to try to track down the X-Men. Manoli confirms an appointment with Valerie Cooper's secretary "for tomorrow", so this page takes place during normal business hours. Neal and Manoli's clothes don't change, so it's likely all the same day. They finally get an address  it took them "a whole week". Meanwhile, on p.7, the other reporters visit the X-Mansion 

X-TREME X-MEN X-POSE' #2 pp.3-4 (FB) 
and are dunked in the lake by Esme of the Cuckoos. Time-code on the camera footage reads "13:34.27.03"  this either means they've shot over 13 hours of footage (I don't think any tape holds that much) or it's 1:34 pm. 

---- 
Wednesday 

X-TREME X-MEN X-POSE' #1 pp.8-13 
Neal and Manoli arrive in New Orleans  Logan says it is "morning" and the reporters' clothes are different, placing this very probably the day after XXX #1 p.6. By the way, Manoli still has an appointment with Val Cooper today, so it's unlikely that they travel directly out to California (as seen in pp.14-23) from here. 

X-TREME X-MEN #24 pp. 7-14 
Cannonball is STILL volunteering. News reports say that no survivors have been found for over 24 hours, and a survivor was found on p.4  so this is likely the evening of the day after pp.1-6, and TWO days after X #130. 

---- 
Thursday 

WOLVERINE v2 #183 (second story) 
In X #132, Storm states that she left for Genosha "three days" prior to the issue. Using the passage of time the books give us, that's today, Thursday. In X #131, occuring the day before #132, we see Logan being picked up from Madripoor -- and when we last saw him, he was caring for Storm in New Orleans in XXX #1. We've got kind of a tight window here to explain Logan's rationale for suddenly going to Asia, and I'd like to slip a published story in here rather than an "off-panel adventure". So I nominate W2 #183/2, where Logan travels to Japan to track down Lady Deathstrike after the events of W2 #173-176. I figure after he deals with her, he can drop by Madripoor to relax, kill a "coupla bad guys", and rendezvous with Cyclops in X #131. 

(Ororo's portrayal here is odd -- unwell in XXX #1 pp.8-13 and walking three days later in X #132 -- but it's consistent with her later appearances that show her to be healing but impatient, and constantly overexerting herself ... walking, trying to fly, etc.) 

---- 
Friday 

X-TREME X-MEN #24 pp.15-16 
"Much, MUCH later", all bodies have been accounted for. Given the time-references between Storm appearing in New Orleans in XXX #1 and "three days later" in Genosha in X #132, this sequence must be TWO days after pp.7-14. 

---- 
Saturday 

NEW X-MEN #131 pp.1-3 
Darkstar's funeral. Going by XX #24, it's been five days since X #130. 

X-TREME X-MEN #24 pp.17-18 
"The next morning" after pp.15-16, Cannonball attends Darkstar's funeral, in a scene ripped from X #131. Prof. X accepts Sam's resignation from X-Corp. 

NEW X-MEN #131 pp.4-21 
Archangel is blue here, placing it before UX #410. Logan has most recently been in Madripoor, according to Cyclops (and he's likely being dropped off in Afghanistan here). It's the first time Scott and Jean have been together for "weeks" (since X #127). 

X-TREME X-MEN #24 pp.18-19 
The night of Darkstar's funeral, Sam leaves Earth with Lila Cheney, and doesn't return for "months". 

---- 
Sunday 

NEW X-MEN #132 
Sabra says she "should have stayed in Paris with X-Corp" and that this has been "the worst weekend of her life"  since Sabra isn't a MEMBER of X-Corp Paris, this must refer to the only time she was ever in Paris with them; X #131  which in turn implies that X #131-132 take place over the same "weekend". Storm has been in Genosha for "three days", meaning she left on the date I've placed W2 #183/2. We see her walk, manipulate clouds and fly (with the aid of her cape to catch the wind)  that's one hell of a recovery. Prof. X and Jean are "on their way to India". Since France, Genosha, and India are NOT in a straight line, I have to assume that they're following a planned itinerary of X-Corp locales. 

---- 
NEW X-MEN #133 
Shortly after X #132. Prof. X and Jean arrive in India via commercial aircraft. Wolverine travels separately from Afghanistan to meet them there. Given that Logan's recently left Storm in poor health, and they're both in the same general area of the world, it makes sense that he'd offer to meet her in Japan before he returns home, to use that country's spas and check up on her (see XU #39/2). 

---- 
WOLVERINE: NETSUKE #1-4 
One night? Wolverine follows his dreams of Mariko's spirit to a set of four carved figurines. This series must be placed before Wolverine is ordered out of Japan in XU #39/2. 

---- 
X-MEN UNLIMITED #39 (second story) 
Storm and Logan rendezvous in Japan, but are ordered out by Sunfire (who likely appears here *after* X #133, given that he and Logan don't seem to be at odds with each other in that issue). The costume Storm wears here is never seen again. She can fly and maneuver quite well, but just like in X #132, she seems to need her cape to catch the winds. 


Anyway, what do you think of that sequence? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 08:05 am    
By Dhall

Jeph, I think I see what you are saying, but I'm not 100% sure what you are objecting to. It's the placement of Netsuke, and XU 39/2? Correct? 

I was trying to economize on Logan's asian trips, but if time is so tight, then the later placement would make more sense. Neither Netsuke, or XU 39/2 takes place over much time, BUT if we're stuck within a three day window, and we have to include an off-panel trip to Madripoor (or did Logan just tell Scott he was going to Madripoor, and not tell him about Lady D?) then putting those apps. AFTER X 133 probably works out for the best. 

And it definitly does make more sense for Storm, since it sounds like she went straight to Genosha, and probably met up with Logan for XU 39/2 afterwards. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 08:13 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
I'm not 100% sure what you are objecting to. It's the placement of Netsuke, and XU 39/2? Correct? 
<<<

Correct. I originally tried to boil his trips to Japan down to one timeframe, too, but couldn't make it work -- plus, Wolvie didn't seem to hold any animosity towards Sunfire in X #133, indicating that Sunfire hadn't yet legally barred Wolvie from Japan in XU #39/2. 

I still want to keep "Netsuke" attached to XU #39/2, though, just to keep Logan's trips to Japan down as much as possible. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 12:46 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

So, it appears that the listings in the Calendar are still okay?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 03:06 pm    
By Dhall

I think we're better off with the current calendar placements for these. If we didn't have Storm's 3 day comment, I would like to amalgamate Logan's trip, but it seems that in this case that would do more harm than good.

			*	*	*

Thread 109

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 04:12 pm    Post subject: UX 414-416
By Dhall

414 
Characters: 
Archangel, Iceman, Nightcrawler, Stacy X, Professor Charles Xavier 
Northstar 
Nurse Annie Ghazikhanian 

415 
Characters: 
Archangel, Iceman, Nightcrawler, Northstar 
Havok 
Nurse Annie Ghazikhanian 
Josette 
Robert 

416 
Characters: 
Archangel, Cyclops, Iceman, Nightcrawler, Northstar, Professor Charles Xavier, Stacy X 
Havok 
Juggernaut 
Squidboy 
Nurse Annie Ghazikhanian 
Glob Herman 


Flashback: 
young Cain Marko 
Dr. Kurt Marko 

Kurt abuses Cain, and talks about how they are moving into a mansion, and that Cain should be happy about it. 

Listings: 
Archangel 
UX 413 
*UX414 
XXX 2 
*UX 415 
*UX 416 

Iceman 
UX 413 
*UX 414 
*UX 415 
*UX 416 

Nightcrawler 
UX 413 
*UX 414 
*UX 415 
*UX 416 

Stacy X 
UX 413 
*UX 414 
*UX 416 


Professor Charles Xavier 
UX 413 
*UX 414 
*UX 416 

Northstar 
UX 392 
X 112 
UX 393 
X 113 
*UX 414 
*UX 415 
*UX 416 

Ghazikhanian, Annie 
UX 413 
*UX 414 
*UX 415 
*UX 416 

Havok 
UX 413 
*UX 415 
*UX 416 

Cyclops 
X 131 
UX 411 
UX 412 
*UX 416 

Juggernaut 
XU 13/2-FB 
*UX 416-FB (before he moves into the mansion) 
{UX 12-FB} 
XMF 4 
UX 12-FB 
XMF 3 
UX 11-BTS 
UX 12 
.. 
*UX 412 
*UX 413 
*UX 416 

Squidboy 
UX 412 
UX 413 
*UX 416 

MARKO, KURT (copied from Sean Curtains post) 
XU 13/2-FB 
{UX 12-FB} (during Xavier's funeral) 
XMF 4-FB (more of the funeral) 
*UX 12-FB (after the funeral) 
*UX 416-FB (before the Markos move into the mansion) 
**XU 12-FB (discussing Cain with Sharon) 
**XMF 4 
**UX 309-FB (abusing Sharon) 
*UX 12-FB (explosion in his lab) 
**XU 12-FB (saving Charles and Cain from the fire) 
*UX 12-FB (dies) 
**XU 12-FB (dead) 

Glob Herman 
X 117 
X 122 
*UX 416

			*	*	*

Thread 110

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 08:50 am    Post subject: Ux 410-413
By Dhall

Question for Jeph: Sammy (Squidboy) real name is Samuel Pare right? Do his parents ever get first names? 

410 
Characters: 
Archangel, Beast, Iceman, Nightcrawler, Stacy X, Wolverine, Professor Charles Xavier 
M II 
Sammy (Samuel Pare) 
Sammys parents (Mr. and Mrs. Pare) 
Juggernaut 
Black Tom Cassidy - BTS 

411 
Characters: 
Archangel, Beast, Cyclops, Iceman, Nightcrawler, Phoenix IV, Stacy X, Wolverine, Professor Charles Xavier 
M II 
Sqiudboy 
Juggernaut 
Black Tom Cassidy 
Alex Summers / Havok 
Nurse Annie Ghazikhanian 
Carter Ghazikhanian 

412 
Characters: 
Archangel, Beast, Cyclops, Iceman, Nightcrawler, Stacy X, Wolverine, Professor Charles Xavier 
M II 
Squidboy 
Juggernaut 
Black Tom Cassidy 
Alex Summers / Havok 
Nurse Annie Ghazikhanian 

413 
Characters: 
Archangel, Iceman, Nightcrawler, Stacy X, Wolverine, Professor Charles Xavier 
Havok 
Sammy 
Juggernaut 
Husk 
Nurse Annie Ghazikhanian 
Carter Ghazikhanian 

Plot: 410-412: There are three plots in these issues, which all come together by 413. Xavier and Beast go to Canada to bring Squidboy back to the institute. The X-Men answer a distress call from the Juggernaut, Black Tom goes wild. Nurse Annie finds out who Havok is, and calls Scott. Resolution: Xavier goes to Scotland after the X-Men, Juggernaut helps the X-Men, Squidboy saves his life. Juggernaut goes back to the institute with them. Nurse Annie, is in love with Havok, who is in a coma, she tells Scott that Havok will still need a nurse. Oh, and Archangel loses his blue. 

413: Annies first day at the institute. The X-Men return from Scotland (By the way Chuck Austin, Cassidy Keep is in Ireland, because Scotland is a different country altogether.) She meets Paige. Archangel requires medical attention. Stacy verbally attacks Paige, because she senses Paiges attraction to Warren, in front of the team. Annie is nervous about the mutant school, but agrees to join the staff. At the end of the issue, we learn that her son Carter is a mutant. 

Note: Chamber 1 occurs before UX 410, as it is referenced in this issue. 

Listings: 

Archangel 
X 131 
*UX 410 
*UX 411 
*UX 412 
*UX 413 
XXX 2 (note Angel is white, with no casts, putting this after UX 414) 

Beast 
XX 19 
X 131 
*UX 410 
*UX 411 
*UX 412 

Iceman 
UX 409 
*UX 410 
*UX 411 
*UX 412 
*UX 413 

Nightcrawler 
UX 409 
XX 19 
*UX 410 
*UX 411 
*UX 412 
*UX 413 

Stacy X 
UX 409 
*UX 410 
*UX 411 
*UX 412 
*UX 413 


Wolverine 
*XXX 1 
*W2 183/2 
*X 131 
*X 133 
(Prob. Netsuke, then XU 39/2 when analyzed) 
*UX 410 
*UX 411 
*UX 412 
*UX 413 
*XXX 2 

Professor Charles Xavier 
X 133 
*UX 410 
*UX 411 
*UX 412 
*UX 413 

M II 
X 131 
*UX 410 
*UX 411 
*UX 412 

Phoenix IV 
X 132 
X 133 
*UX 411 

Cyclops 
X 128 
X 131 
*UX 411 
*UX 412 


Juggernaut 
ASM2 36 
CYCLOPS 1 
CYCLOPS 2 
DPOOL3 61 
*UX 410 
*UX 411 
*UX 412 
*UX 413 


Black Tom Cassidy 
GENX 61 
CYCLOPS 1 
CYCLOPS 2 
*UX 410-BTS 
*UX 411 
*UX 412 


Havok 
MX 31 
MX '01 
MX 32 
*UX 411 
*UX 412 
*UX 413 



Ghazikhanian, Annie 
*UX 411 
*UX 412 
*UX 413 

Ghazikhanian, Carter 
*UX 411 
*UX 413 

Pare, Samuel Luc "Sammy" 
*UX 410 
*UX 411 
*UX 412 
*UX 413 

Mr. Pare 
*UX 410 

Mrs. Pare 
*UX 410

Last edited by Dhall on 19 Oct 2004 08:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 07:58 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

No first names for the Pares as far as I know. I just call 'em Arnold and Norma, myself. (And anyone who knows why gets a prize.) 

And I'd hesitate to list Sammy as "Squidboy" -- as far as I can recall, that name was only used by the schoolkids to mock him. I don't think he ever took it on as a "codename" (although I have a nagging feeling that he might have in, like, one issue). 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 08:53 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
And I'd hesitate to list Sammy as "Squidboy" -- as far as I can recall, that name was only used by the schoolkids to mock him. I don't think he ever took it on as a "codename" (although I have a nagging feeling that he might have in, like, one issue).  
<<<

No, I don't think Sammy ever used Squidboy as a codename either.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 09:20 pm    
By Dhall

Then Pare, Samuel "Sammy" it is.....at least until we find out otherwise....

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 09:39 pm    
By Ant-Man

His father's name is Claude 
If I remember correctly, it was Uncanny #432 where his wife calls him by name...
_________________
-Brian Cook-

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Oct 2004 01:50 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Dhall wrote: 

413: Annies first day at the institute. The X-Men return from Scotland (By the way Chuck Austin, Cassidy Keep is in Ireland, because Scotland is a different country altogether.) 
 


This was clarified in a later issue of Uncanny. It's not Cassidy Keep, despite what the caption says; Juggernaut bought this castle with money he and Tom had saved up.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Oct 2004 10:10 am    
By ferdy

Wow... my first post... been around for awhile though.... lurking.... hehehe... nevermind. 

I'm not going to get into the debate into whether or not his 'code-name' is Squidboy or Squid Boy or just Sammy Pare.... but his middle-name was revealed in New X-Men#161 to be Luc.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Oct 2004 08:23 pm    
By the Krayon

Sammy also joked around about code-naming himself the Sub-Mariner in X157. he was unaware of Namor using the same name and, while this is obviously a joke, it is the closest thing Sammy has to a code-name. so if you want to use one, that would be it. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------the-Krayon

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Oct 2004 08:18 pm    
By Dhall

There, I changed the post to: 
Pare, Samuel Luc "Sammy"

			*	*	*

Thread 111

Posted: 19 Oct 2004 09:47 pm    Post subject: UX 417-420
By Dhall

417 
Characters: 
Archangel, Iceman, Nightcrawler, Northstar, Professor Xavier, Stacy X, Wolverine 
Husk, Juggernaut 
Havok 
Annie Ghazikhanian 
Carter Ghazikhanian 
Pare, Samuel Luc 
Detective Charlotte Jones 
Maximus Lobo 

418 
Characters: 
Archangel, Iceman, Nightcrawler, Northstar, Wolverine 
Husk, Juggernaut 
Havok, Polaris 
Nurse Annie Ghazikhanian 
Carter Ghazikhanian 
Pare, Samuel Luc 
Father Whitney 
Maximus Lobo 

419 
Characters: 
Archangel, Iceman, Nightcrawler, Northstar, Professor X, Wolverine 
Husk, Juggernaut 
Havok, Polaris 
Nurse Annie Ghazikhanian 
Carter Ghazikhanian 
Pare, Samuel Luc 
Father Whitney 
Maximus Lobo 

420 
Characters: 
Archangel, Iceman, Nightcrawler, Northstar, Professor X 
Wolverine 
Husk, Juggernaut 
Havok, Polaris 
Nurse Annie Ghazikhanian 
Carter Ghazikhanian 
Pare, Samuel Luc 
Maximus Lobo 

Note: I am assuming that is Carter and Samuel playing ball with Juggernaut at the end of the issue (since that was mentioned in 417.) 

Listings: 

Archangel 
UX414 
XXX 2 
UX 415 
UX 416 
*UX 417 
*UX 418 
*UX 419 
*UX 420 

Iceman 
UX 414 
UX 415 
UX 416 
*UX 417 
*UX 418 
*UX 419 
*UX 420 

Nightcrawler 
UX 414 
UX 415 
UX 416 
*UX 417 
*UX 418 
*UX 419 
*UX 420 

Northstar 
X 113 
UX 414 
UX 415 
UX 416 
*UX 417 
*UX 418 
*UX 419 
*UX 420 

Professor Xavier 
UX 414 
UX 416 
*UX 417 
*UX 419 
*UX 420 

Stacy X 
UX 414 
UX 416 
*UX 417 

Wolverine 
UX 413 
XXX 2 
*UX 417 
*UX 418 
*UX 419 
*UX 420 
PUN6 33 
PUN6 34 
PUN6 35 
PUN6 36 
PUN6 37 

Husk 
UX 403 
UX 404 
UX 405 
UX 406 
*UX 417 
*UX 418 
*UX 419 
*UX 420 

Juggernaut 
UX 413 
UX 416 
*UX 417 
*UX 418 
*UX 419 
*UX 420 

Havok 
UX 413 
UX 415 
UX 416 
*UX 417 
*UX 418 
*UX 419 
*UX 420 

Ghazikhanian, Annie 
UX 414 
UX 415 
UX 416 
*UX 417 
*UX 418 
*UX 419 
*UX 420 

Ghazikhanian, Carter 
UX 411 
UX 413 
*UX 417 
*UX 418 
*UX 419 
*UX 420 

Pare, Samuel Luc 
UX 413 
UX 416 
*UX 417 
*UX 418 
*UX 419 
*UX 420 

Jones, Charlotte Detective 
X 101 
X 106 
*UX 417 

**Maximus Lobo 
*UX 417 
*UX 418 
*UX 419 
*UX 420 

Polaris 
UX 393 
X 132 
*UX 418 
*UX 419 
*UX 420 

**Whitney, Father 
*UX 418 
*UX 419

			*	*	*

Thread 112

Posted: 16 Oct 2004 06:32 pm    Post subject: DD2 26-31
By SeanCUrtin

Are analyses for Daredevil v2 #26-31 needed? I can't find any previous analysis and they're not yet in the MCP. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 12:41 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks for offering, Sean, but Kevin has the entire run of DD2 covered in previous posts on this portion of the board.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Oct 2004 09:09 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Thanks for offering, Sean, but Kevin has the entire run of DD2 covered in previous posts on this portion of the board. 
<<<

True, however I can't find what section of the old board that lengthy post on those issues is at...but it's somewhere in the Archives, that much is true. 

However, if you find my old analysis, and see things that are missing, I welcome the corrections...I've lost my own copy of my notes for those issues when I moved a few months back, but Paul has all of them added to the calender, if that helps. 

As for why those issues haven't been added to the MCP, well we keep having to go back and tweak Daredevil's chronology surrounding this period! I think Russ is just waiting for Bendis to leave the title before adding anymore Daredevil chronology to the MCP! 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Oct 2004 10:42 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Actually, I just haven't gotten around to it. I've tried to keep relatively up to date with Iron Man and Avengers, and recently have caught up with Peter Parker Spider-Man, Spectacular Spider-Man and Amazing Spider-Man, although my computer is in the shop, so I wasn't able to update this past weekend. I've analyzed all the X-Treme X-Men, but haven't had the opportunity to update the chronologies yet, what with no computer and all.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Oct 2004 05:56 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
I've analyzed all the X-Treme X-Men 
<<<

So, I don't have to right?  

Dave H.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Oct 2004 06:13 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
True, however I can't find what section of the old board that lengthy post on those issues is at...but it's somewhere in the Archives, that much is true.  
<<<

Archive #29. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Oct 2004 08:27 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
I've analyzed all the X-Treme X-Men 
<<<
So, I don't have to right?  
<<<

Technically you don't have to do any of this.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Oct 2004 10:21 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Just as with Spectacular and Amazing, there are a handful of issues I don't have, which I'll get around to posting, as soon as I can post from the house.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Oct 2004 03:07 pm    
By Dhall

Well I will probably still post them. It makes it much easier to follow certain character's chronologies for me to just go through every book they are. (Wolverine, I'm looking at you...) 

But, Since Russ has analyzed them, I might not pore over obsessivly every minor flashback, like I otherwise would.... 


Dave H

			*	*	*

Thread 113

Posted: 20 Oct 2004 09:36 pm    Post subject: Chamber 1-4
By Dhall

Chamber 1 
Characters: 
Chamber, Cyclops 
Molly 
Nicholas Gleason 
Amber 
Gigi Martin 
Walter 
Neutrino Annihilator / Kirk 
Frank and his friend, cyborgs 
Note: Im going to make the assumption that the appearance of X-Force on the TV, was (in story context) promo art, rather than an actual flashback scene, as its the cover of X-Force #116. 
2 
Characters: 
Chamber 
Walter 
Amber 
Gigi Martin 
Neutrino Annihilator 

3 
Characters: 
Chamber 
Amber 
Walter 
Gigi Martin 
Neutrino Annihilator 
4 
Characters: 
Chamber, Cyclops 
Juggernaut 
Carter Ghazikhanian, Nicholas Gleason, Molly, Samuel Pare, Amber 
Walter 
Gigi Martin 
Kovalski twins 

in flashback: 
Gigi Martin, Alex and other mutants 
Neutrino Annihilator 
Note: This series must start before UX 410 (as Chamber leaving is referenced in that issue) , and end before UX 422 (when Chamber is back at the school.) Also, note that the end segment of #4, happens One Month later according to the caption, and features Chamber back at Xaviers. 

Listings: 

Chamber 
UX 407 
UX 408 
UX 409 
*CHAMB 1 
*CHAMB 2 
*CHAMB 3 
*CHAMB 4 

Cyclops 
*X 131 
*CHAMB 1 
*UX 411 
*UX 412 
*UX 416 
*CHAMB 4 

**Gleason, Nicholas 
*CHAMB 1 
*CHAMB 4 


**Martin, Gigi 
*CHAMB 4-FB 
*CHAMB 1 
*CHAMB 2 
*CHAMB 3 
*CHAMB 4 


**Neutrino Annihilator / Kirk 
*CHAMB 4-FB 
*CHAMB 1 
*CHAMB 2 
*CHAMB 3 
*CHAMB 4 


Juggernaut 
*UX 419 
*UX 420 
*CHAMB 4 


Ghazikhanian, Carter 
*UX 419 
*UX 420 
*CHAMB 4 


Pare, Samuel Luc Sammy 
*UX 419 
*UX 420 
*CHAMB 4

			*	*	*

Thread 114

Posted: 21 Oct 2004 06:53 am    Post subject: UX 421-422
By Dhall

421 
Characters: 
Archangel, Beast, Cyclops ,Husk 
Iceman, Nightcrawler, Phoenix IV, Professor X 
Juggernaut 
Havok, Polaris 
Nurse Annie Ghazikhanian 
Carter Ghazikhanian 
Earthmover, Guardian, Puck, Sasquatch, Snowbird, Vindicator II 
FBI Agents 
Miss Ishikawa 

Pare, Mrs. BTS (She deserves a BTS for these issues, as she is the one who started these events, by calling the Canadians to get her son back from Xavier.) 

422 
Characters: 
Archangel, Husk, Iceman, Nightcrawler, Northstar, Professor X 
Juggernaut 
Chamber, Havok, Polaris 
Nurse Annie Ghazikhanian 
Carter Ghazikhanian 
Pare, Samuel Luc 
Unnamed Students at Xavier Institute 
Earthmover, Guardian, Puck, Sasquatch, Snowbird, Vindicator II 
Miss Ishikawa 

Professor Havass 

Pare, Mrs. BTS (She deserves a BTS for these issues, as she is the one who started these events, by calling the Canadians to get her son back from Xavier.) 

Church of Humanity 
On Video Recording: 
Stacy-X (Former X-Man) 
Over phone conversations. 
Polaris mother (stepmother) 
Jack White, Xaviers lawyer 


Listings: 

Archangel 
UX 419 
UX 420 
*UX 421 
*UX 422 

Beast 
UX 411 
UX 412 
*UX 421 

Cyclops 
UX 416 
CHAMB 4 
*UX 422 

Husk 
UX 419 
UX 420 
*UX 421 
*UX 422 

Iceman 
UX 419 
UX 420 
*UX 421 
*UX 422 

Nightcrawler 
UX 419 
UX 420 
*UX 421 
*UX 422 

Phoenix IV 
X 133 
UX 411 
*UX 421 

Professor X 
UX 419 
UX 420 
*UX 421 
*UX 422 

Northstar 
UX 419 
UX 420 
*UX 422 

Chamber 
UX 409 
CHAMB 1 
CHAMB 2 
CHAMB 3 
CHAMB 4 
*UX 422 

Juggernaut 
UX 419 
UX 420 
CHAMB 4 
*UX 421 
*UX 422 

Havok 
UX 419 
UX 420 
*UX 421 
*UX 422 

Polaris 
UX 419 
UX 420 
*UX 421 
*UX 422 

Pare, Samuel Luc 
UX 419 
UX 420 
CHAMB 4 
*UX 422 

Ghazikhanian, Annie 
UX 419 
UX 420 
*UX 421 
*UX 422 

Ghazikhanian, Carter 
UX 420 
CHAMB 4 
*UX 421 
*UX 422 

Earthmover 
W2 179 
W2 180 
*UX 421 
*UX 422 


Guardian 
W2 173 
W2 174-FB 
*UX 421 
*UX 422 

Puck 
W2 173/2 
W2 179 
*UX 421 
*UX 422 

Sasquatch 
W2 173/2 
W2 179 
*UX 421 
*UX 422 

Snowbird 
*W2 173/2 
*W2 179 
*UX 421 
*UX 422 

Vindicator II 
*W2 173 
*W2 174-FB 
BP3 42 
BP3 43 
*UX 421 
*UX 422 

**Havass, Professor 
*UX 422 

Stacy X 
*UX 416 
*UX 417 
*UX 422-FB 

**Miss Ishikawa 
*UX 421 
*UX 422 

**White, Jack 
*UX 422-BTS 

Pare, Mrs. 
*UX 421-BTS 


Mrs. Dane ???? 
Polaris stepmother (does she have a name at all? She cant get a listing w/o a name.) 
*UX 422-BTS 

Edited due to Jeph's points below.

Last edited by Dhall on 21 Oct 2004 12:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Oct 2004 07:29 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I'd say that Sammy Pare's mother only merits a BTS for UX #421. 

And wouldn't Polaris' stepmother be Mrs. Dane? Oh dear God I've opened the Polaris' adoptive parents Pandora's box again. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Oct 2004 12:26 pm    
By SeanCurtin

By "stepmother" I'm assuming you mean "adoptive mother" (or "adoptive stepmother" if she's actually referred to as her stepmother). 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Oct 2004 12:28 pm    
By Dhall

Quote:
>>>
And wouldn't Polaris' stepmother be Mrs. Dane?
<<<

Not if Dane is her birth name, and not the adoptive mother's name at all. 

Mind you, I'm, not saying that is the case, just that we don't know. 

I'm all for listing it as Mrs. Dane, and changing it if it's ever revealed, but how much do we know abiout the Dane's anyway? 

Quote:
>>>
I'd say that Sammy Pare's mother only merits a BTS for UX #421
<<<
 
Yeah, I take your point 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Oct 2004 07:07 pm    
By Shmi

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
And wouldn't Polaris' stepmother be Mrs. Dane? 
<<<
Not if Dane is her birth name, and not the adoptive mother's name at all. 
<<<

I've read profiles of Lorna that say she didn't know she was adopted until she was twenty. I don't know if it's canon or came from some guide. If it is actually in the comic then Dane is probably her mother's last name as well. 

Sorry I can't be any more help.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Oct 2004 08:15 pm    
By Dhall

Well yeah, she didn't know she was adopted until later in life, that's why we are assuming that her mother is Mrs. Dane. 

It's very possible that she was adopted by relatives. 

Dammit, I want to see those adoption papers.... 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Thread 115

Posted: 21 Oct 2004 08:19 pm    Post subject: XX 20-24
By Dhall

XX 20 
Characters: 
Bishop, Emma Frost, Sage, Storm, Wolverine 
Gloom, Jeffrey Garrett, Silicon, Tantra, Zach 
Elias Bogans friends and employees (deceased) 
Sheriff Mulder and a few of his men 

21 
Characters: 
Bishop, Emma Frost, Professor X, Sage, Storm, Wolverine 
Jeffrey Garrett, Rubbermaid 
Elias Bogan 
Detective Cardones 
Detective Moran 
Sheriff Gideon Troy 
Mary Holland in fb 
Evangeline Whedon 

Charles Xavier 
Emma Frost 
Jeffrey Garret 

22 
Characters: 
Bishop, Emma Frost, Sage, Storm, Wolverine 
Jeffrey Garrett, Gloom, Rubbermaid, Tantra 

Charles Xavier 
Emma Frost 


XX 23 
Characters: 
Bishop, Charles Xavier, Emma Frost, Phoenix IV, Sage, Storm 
Phoenix III (as Bogans captive telepath) 
Jeffrey Garret, Gloom, Rubbermaid , Tantra 

Mr. Talent, Mrs. Talent, Oliver Ryland, Xander, Ms. Andes, Mary Holland, Mr. Rosario (as Danger Room simulacrums only) 

Charles Xavier 


Note: I did the best I could with the kids who are in these issues, they don't do a terribly good job of id'ing all of them, so If I got any wrong, or missed some please let me know. 


Listings: 
Bishop 
XX 19 
XXX 1 
XXX 2 
*XX 20 
*XX 21 
*XX 22 
*XX 23 


**Bogan, Elias 
*XX 21 
*XX 22 
*XX 23 


**Cardones, Detective 
*XX 21 

**Garrett, Jeffrey 
*XX 20 
*XX 21 
*XX 22 
*XX 23 

Glob Herman 
*X 117 
*X 122 
*UX 416 
*XX 20 

**Gloom 
*XX 20 
*XX 22 
*XX 23 

**Holland, Mary 
*XX 21-FB 
*XX 20 (body) 

**Moran, Detective 
*XX 21 

**Mulder, Sheriff 
*XX 20 

Phoenix III 
C2 86 
C2 92 
C2 93 
C2 94 
C2 95 
*XX 23 

Phoenix IV 
*X 133 
*UX 411 
*UX 421 
*XX 23 

**Rubbermaid/ Andrea Margulies 
*XX 20 
*XX 21 
*XX 22 
*XX 23 


**Silicon 
*XX 20 

Storm 
*X 132 
*XXX 2 
*XX 20 
*XX 21 
*XX 22 
*XX 23 


**Tantra/Rueben 
*XX 20 
*XX 22 
*XX 23 

Tessa/Sage 
*XX 19 
*XXX 1 
*XXX 2 
*XX 20 
*XX 21 
*XX 22 
*XX 23 


**Troy, Gideon Sheriff 
*XX 21 

**Whedon, Evangeline 
*XX 21 

White Queen 
X 128 
XXX 1 
X 131 
*XX 20 
*XX 21 
*XX 22 
*XX 23 


Wolverine 
PUN6 37 
W2 187 
*XX 20 
*XX 21 
*XX 22 


Xavier, Charles 
*UX 421 
*UX 422 
*XX 21 
*XX 22 
*XX 23

			*	*	*

Thread 116

Posted: 21 Oct 2004 07:03 pm    Post subject: CFA: X-Treme X-Men
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm looking for an analysis of XX 7, for this week's update. Can anyone help? 

EDIT: Oops. Never mind. David Hall submitted one September 20. 


watching: syracuse v. west virginia

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Oct 2004 08:19 pm    
By Dhall

Any other issues that you need?

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Oct 2004 08:37 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I think X-Treme X-Men is covered. 


watching: syracuse v. west virginia

			*	*	*

Thread 117

Posted: 23 Oct 2004 07:09 am    Post subject: Exiles 28-30
By Dhall

Exiles 28 

Characters: 

Earth-616: 
Nicholas Gleason 
Archangel, Havok, Husk, Iceman, Juggernaut, Wolverine 
Annie Ghazikhanian 
Carter Ghazikhanian 
Maximus Lobo 
Havok/Mutant X-Verse/Alex Summers 
Exiles: 
Mimic / Calvin Rankin (Exiles) 
Nocturne / Talia Josephine Wagner (Exiles) 
Morph (Exiles) 
Sunfire / Mariko Yashida (Exiles) 
Sasquatch / Dr. Heather Hudson(Exiles) 
Magik / Illyana Rasputin(Exiles) 
Timebroker 

Note: This issue must take place after UX 426, as Alex and Annies time together in Paris is referred to in this issue. 

Exiles 29 
Characters: 
Exiles: 
Magik, Mimic, Morph, Nocturne, Sasquatch, Sunfire 

Earth-616: 
Archangel 
Havok 
Husk, Iceman, Juggernaut, Nightcrawler, Wolverine 
Annie Ghazikhanian 
Carter Ghazikhanian 
Nicholas Gleason 
Maximus Lobo 
Havok/Mutant X-Verse/Alex Summers 

Exiles 30 
Characters: 
Exiles: 
Magik, Mimic, Morph, Nocturne, Sasquatch, Sunfire 
Timebroker 
Earth-616: 
Archangel, Havok, Husk, Iceman, Juggernaut, Nightcrawler, Wolverine 
Annie Ghazikhanian 
Carter Ghazikhanian 
Nicholas Gleason 

Maximus Lobo 
Havok/Mutant X-Verse/Alex Summers 


Plot: Mutant X-Verse Alex comes back, the Exiles are given the mission of stopping him, and protecting Carter and Nicholas. At the same time, Maximus Lobo comes back. 

Listings: 
Nicholas Gleason 
CHAMB 1 
CHAMB 4 
*EXIL 28 
*EXIL 29 
*EXIL 30 

Archangel 
UX 421 
UX 422 
*EXIL 28 
*EXIL 29 
*EXIL 30 

Havok 
UX 421 
UX 422 
*EXIL 28 
*EXIL 29 
*EXIL 30 

Husk 
UX 421 
UX 422 
*EXIL 28 
*EXIL 29 
*EXIL 30 

Iceman 
UX 421 
UX 422 
*EXIL 28 
*EXIL 29 
*EXIL 30 

Juggernaut 
CHAMB 4 
UX 421 
UX 422 
*EXIL 28 
*EXIL 29 
*EXIL 30 

Wolverine 
W2 187 
(possibly: W2 188-189, W3 1-6, Spm/Wolv 1-4, when analyzed) 
XX 20 
XX 21 
XX 22 
(Possibly: W/Doop 1-2, W/Ca 1-4 when analyzed) 
(possibly: UX 423-426, when analyzed) 
*EXIL 28 
*EXIL 29 
*EXIL 30 
WXISLE 1 
WXISLE 2 

Annie Ghazikhanian 
UX 421 
UX 422 
*EXIL 28 
*EXIL 29 
*EXIL 30 

Carter Ghazikhanian 
CHAMB 4 
UX 421 
UX 422 
*EXIL 28 
*EXIL 29 
*EXIL 30 

Maximus Lobo 
*UX 419 
*UX 420 
*EXIL 28 
*EXIL 29 
*EXIL 30 

Havok/Mutant X-Verse/Alex Summers 
MX 24-FB 
MX 1 
*EXIL 28 
*EXIL 29 
*EXIL 30 

Nightcrawler 
*UX 421 
*UX 422 
*EXIL 29 
*EXIL 30 

**Mimic/Exiles/ Calvin Rankin 
*EXIL 28 
*EXIL 29 
*EXIL 30 

**Nocturne /Exiles/ Talia Josephine Wagner 
*EXIL 28 
*EXIL 29 
*EXIL 30 

**Morph/ Exiles 
*EXIL 28 
*EXIL 29 
*EXIL 30 

**Sunfire / Exiles/ Mariko Yashida 
*EXIL 28 
*EXIL 29 
*EXIL 30 

**Sasquatch /Exiles/ Dr. Heather Hudson 
*EXIL 28 
*EXIL 29 
*EXIL 30 

**Magik / Exiles/ Illyana Rasputin 
*EXIL 28 
*EXIL 29 
*EXIL 30 


**Timebroker 
*EXIL 28 
*EXIL 30

			*	*	*

Thread 118

Posted: 23 Oct 2004 07:43 am    Post subject: X 134
By Dhall

X-Men 134 

Characters: 
Jumbo Carnation 
Glob Herman (finally gets a name this issue) 
Stepford Cuckoos (Sophie named this issue) 
Tattoo 
Slick 
Quentin Quire 
Martha Johanssen 
Spike 
White Queen 
Beast 
Cyclops 
Foster, Fred Officer 

Note: Jean is mentioned as being in Hong Kong during this issue, although shes not shown, despite being on the cover. 

Plot: Mutant designer Jumbo Carnation is killed by humans in mutant town. This issue serves mainly to introduce some new characters for the upcoming storyline, as well as to re-introduce a couple of characters. Much of it focuses on Quentin Quire 


Listings: 

**Jumbo Carnation 
*X 134 

Glob Herman (finally gets a name this issue) 
X 117 
X 122 
UX 416 
XX 20 
*X 134 

Stepford Cuckoos  Celeste 
X 125 
X 126 
*X 134 

Stepford Cuckoos  Esme 
X 125 
X 126 
XXX 1 
*X 134 

Stepford Cuckoos  Mindee 
X 125 
X 126 
*X 134 


Stepford Cuckoos  Phoebe 
X 125 
X 126 
*X 134 


Stepford Cuckoos  Sophie 
X 125 
X 126 
*X 134 


**Tattoo 
*X 134 

**Slick 
*X 134 

**Quire, Quentin 
*X 134 

Johansson, Martha 
X 118 
X 119 
X 120 
*X 134 

**Spike 
*X 134 

White Queen 
X 131 
XX 20 
XX 21 
XX 22 
XX 23 
*X 134 


Beast 
X 131 
UX 410 
UX 411 
UX 412 
UX 421 
*X 134 

Cyclops 
CHAMB 4 
UX 422 
*X 134 


**Foster, Officer Fred 
*X 134

Last edited by Dhall on 23 Oct 2004 09:54 am; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Oct 2004 09:06 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I think you mean, Foster, Officer Fred.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Oct 2004 09:54 am    
By Dhall

Changed....

			*	*	*

Thread 119

Posted: 23 Oct 2004 09:55 am    Post subject: X 423-424
By Dhall

UX 423 

Characters: 
Cyclops 
Phoenix IV 
Iceman 
Wolverine 
Nightcrawler 
Chamber 
Husk 
Archangel 
Havok 
Polaris 
Ghazikhanian, Annie 


Bedlam/Aaronson, Jesse 
Magma 
Jubilee 
Skin 

Mutant 143 

Plot: The X-Men find several mutants crucified, and left for dead on their front lawn. Among these, are Skin, Bedlam, Jubilee, Magma, and two unnamed mutants. Skin definitely dies this issue. Archangel is able to save Jubilee, and Magma. The X-Men are surprised when Kurt tells them about the Church of Humanity, and about his ordination ceremony. Someone has been messing with his mind. They go to St. Michaels church in Brooklyn, and find a group of dead mutants underneath the church. Mutant 143 is down there, but the team does not notice him (and he is gone by the beginning of next issue.) 

UX 424 

Characters: 

Cyclops 
Phoenix IV 
Iceman 
Wolverine 
Nightcrawler 
Havok 
Polaris 

Whitney, Father 
Supreme Pontiff 
Mutant 143 
Desmond, Bishop 

Plot: A dying Father Whitney tells Kurt that the Church of Humanity is still in Montana. They have been messing with Kurts mind, by use of mutant 143. The X-Men are able to destroy the church. 

Note: Its pretty clear from this issue, that we should give mutant 143 a BTS for UX 400, for messing with Kurts mind, and for making the X-Men think that the Church had abandoned their cathedral in Montana. 

Listings: 
Cyclops 
CHAMB 4 
UX 422 
*UX 423 
*UX 424 
X 134 

Phoenix IV 
UX 411 
UX 421 
XX 23 
*UX 423 
*UX 424 

Iceman 
UX 422 
*UX 423 
*UX 424 
EXIL 28 
EXIL 29 
EXIL 30 

Wolverine 
XX 20 
XX 21 
XX 22 
(Prob: W/Doop 1-2, W/Ca 1-4, when analyzed) 
*UX 423 
*UX 424 
(probably: UX 425-426, when analyzed) 
EXIL 28 
EXIL 29 
EXIL 30 

Nightcrawler 
UX 422 
*UX 423 
*UX 424 
EXIL 29 
EXIL 30 

Chamber 
CHAMB 4 
UX 422 
*UX 423 


Husk 
UX 422 
*UX 423 
EXIL 28 
EXIL 29 
EXIL 30 

Archangel 
UX 422 
*UX 423 
EXIL 28 
EXIL 29 
EXIL 30 

Havok 
UX 422 
*UX 423 
*UX 424 
EXIL 28 
EXIL 29 
EXIL 30 

Polaris 
UX 421 
UX 422 
*UX 423 
*UX 424 

Ghazikhanian, Annie 
UX 422 
*UX 423 
EXIL 28 
EXIL 29 
EXIL 30 

Bedlam/Aaronson, Jesse 
UX 388 
XFOR 114 
XFOR 115-FB 
*UX 423 

Magma 
XFOR 88 
XFOR 89 
XFOR 90 
*UX 423 

Jubilee 
*UX 405 
*UX 406 
*UX 423 

Skin 
GENX 71 
GENX 73 
GENX 75 
*UX 423 

**Mutant 143 
*UX 400-BTS 
*UX 423 
*UX 424 

Whitney, Father 
UX 418 
UX 419 
*UX 423-BTS 
*UX 424 

Supreme Pontiff 
*UX 400 
*UX 424 

**Desmond, Bishop 
*UX 424

			*	*	*

Thread 120

Posted: 21 Oct 2004 06:57 pm    Post subject: Wolverine 187
By Dhall

Wolverine 187 

Down the Road 

Characters: 

Wolverine 

Hillbilly 

Various bar patrons 

This story takes place all in one night, with a full moon. NO characters besides Logan are named. Logan takes his bike to the Red Onion Saloon, where he find a man and asks him for a lift. This man is a murderous drunken hillbilly, who has taken to picking up hitchhikers and shooting them. He has a truck with two bodies in the back. He and Logan drive around and drink whiskey. The man is suicidal, but lacks the guts to go through with it alone. They end up at a bridge that is closed for repair. Logan offers to drive, because the other man cannot do it. Logan drives them off the bridge, into the canyon. The last panel is of the car on fire. 

Listing: 

Wolverine 
UX 420 
PUN6 33 
PUN6 34 
PUN6 35 
PUN6 36 
PUN6 37 
*W2 187

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Oct 2004 09:11 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, Dave. 

Any idea where this bar is supposed to be and is there any sense of season here? 

My inclination is to place this at the time of the first full moon following PUN6 37 -- just before Thanksgiving of Year 21 -- unless other clues nix that idea. (Logan's Savage Land adventure in XU 48 would occur between PUN6 37 and W2 187.)
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Oct 2004 09:46 pm    
By Dhall

NO actual place names are used in the story, just the name of the bar. 
It is possible that it takes place in the southern U.S. judging from the way the one guy talks, but that's by no means certain. ll that is certain is that there is a small town, and some highways. 

I'm pretty sure that it is meant to be autumn. There are leaves on some trees ,but not on others. NO reason that I see why it couldn't be placed where you mention. 

Dave H

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Posted: 23 Oct 2004 02:13 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Okay, Dave. I've put this issue on Wednesday, November 27. Thanks.
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 121

Posted: 19 Oct 2004 09:28 pm    Post subject: What If v2 #1, 7, 46, 47, 49, 61
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Since I haven't done anything around here in a while, here are some more What If issues I've managed to write up. Sadly, none of these issues offer concretely new MU material, but some offer some additional temporal and calendar clues to the Earth-616 comics they branch off of  and there's an interesting discussion about the nature of Death and Eternity in #1. Enjoy! 

-Jeph! 

-------- 

v2 #1  What if the Avengers lost the Evolutionary War? 

The Watcher appears (presumably before WI2 #2). 
Quasar appears behind the scenes. (See notes.) 
Death and Eternity appear as well, in scenes that occur in the far future. (See Notes.) 

Earth-616 temporal references: UX@ 12 is said to be "only days before" A@ 17. Cap has been around for "nearly half a century" at the time of A@ 17, but that's one of those Marvel-time/real-time calendar references that need to be ignored or rationalized. 

This timeline branches off during A@17, sometime between p.40 panel 1 and p.44 panel 3. 

Pre-existing scenes: 

p.1  generic shot of the Squadron Supreme. 
p.1  either a symbolic splash of the Avengers' fight with the Evolutionary from A@17 before the timeline diverged, or a specific shot from after the timeline diverged. It doesn't represent any single panel or sequence of events from A@17. 
p.2 panel 4  if this is meant to be a representation of anything from our Earth, it's from A@17 p.49 panel 4. 

Notes: this issue's story goes far, far into the future of this alternate dimension  up to the next time the Celestials visit Earth, and pass judgment. (The Fifth Host, I think.) I have no idea how long between Hosts the Celestials go, but it's been many generations by the time the story comes to a close. And yet, the Watcher watches all of it. 

We know that the Watcher's machines can allow him to look into the PAST of the alternate worlds he views  but a flashback in Quasar #30 proves that he can see their FUTURES as well. (In a scene occuring between Quasar #6-30  "present day"  the Watcher views the events of WI2 #13, which are stated in that issue to occur in "the near future". And that scene shows that his extradimensional viewing portal was given to him by the Time-Keepers, so it's not such a leap that it has time-viewing abilities.) 

So I'm going to assume that, barring any temporal evidence to the contrary, the Watcher appears in the WI series in order  that is, his appearance in WI2 #1 comes before WI2 #2, which comes before WI2 #3, etc etc. And most, if not all of those appearances occur in the "present day" of when they were published. 


More notes: Quasar #30 reveals that the MU Quasar, travelling dimensions, was present for the events of p.16 panel 2  the evolved mutants departing Earth en masse. I don't know if we'd give him a "~" entry for this (as in Q 30 ~ WI2 1-BTS), or just let the Q #30 entry cover it. Thoughts? 

The Quasar issue also reveals that a variant of our Living Laser was on this earth at that time, but given that (a) his Q #30 scenes don't mirror any scenes from this issue, and (b) he's only a *variant* of our Living Laser, I don't think we need to focus too hard on how to chronologize this appearance. 

By the way, Q #30 shows Quasar crusing through several other worlds featured in What If issues  some I own, some I don't. The ones I can't place are a giant Korvac about to use the Ultimate Nullifier, Captain Marvel breaking up an intergalactic war, the Venom symbiote possessing Thor, a Quasar/Captain Universe amalgam fighting the serpent god Set, and Thanos and Maelstrom playing tug-of-war with the sun. (This final dimension may not be from a What If comic). 

(The other ones, that I *do* recognize, I'll cover when I get around to writing up those issues of WI2.) 


More notes: as I said above, Death and Eternity appear in this future segment. Are Death and Eternity pan-dimensional? Is there only one Eternity in the entire multiverse  meaning that any Eternity appearance in any What If comic is the same guy? Or is there one embodiment of Eternity for each dimensional plane  meaning that this is an alternate Eternity? 

And how's this for a wrinkle: if there IS only one Eternity, then any appearance of him in a FUTURE timeline  alternate or not  would be canon too. Even though we consider all future stories to be "alternates" by default, and don't chronologize the characters shown under the assumption that the "real" MU won't end up flowing into that future  that wouldn't matter to Eternity. If he exists in ALL dimensions, he'd exist in ALL futures too. He would have no "alternate" future  instead he would have a set, concrete future, where he exists everywhere at once. 

(Same question for Death  is she pan-dimensional?) 

Now, in this future, both Death and Eternity are absorbed by the evolved mutants of Earth, and used to create a new universe  a new Big Bang. It would seem logical that these were just *that universe's* versions of Eternity and Death  otherwise, as this is a canon timeline, we've just seen the final, inescapable fate of the ONE and ONLY Eternity and Death. 

And if this was their canon, inescapable fate, then it should probably go dead last in their MCP entries  as, for them, this *wouldn't* be an "alternate" future. 

Slim evidence exists that this was only one dimension's Eternity  his departure into an adjacent, empty dimension (and subsequent Big Bang there) causes his original universe to vanish. Once he leaves, everything disappears. However, the Watcher notes that "thus ends one continuum of time and space  as your own continues on its temporal flight, blissfully unaware." 

This could be interpreted to mean that, at that point in the future, our timeline still exists. Meaning, Eternity's departure to an adjacent dimension didnt erase the entire MULTIVERSE  just his home universe. And that in turn implies that Eternity ISN'T a pan-dimensional being, but that there's one of him for every single divergent timeline. 

(Heck, the fact that Eternity left one dimension to enter another implies that he's a single-dimensionan entity  if he embodies all dimensions, how could he "leave one" and "enter another"?) 

Of course, if this is the Watcher from the present day looking ahead, he could have meant that although their universe vanished in that *future*, our own universe continued on its temporal flight *in our present day*  and that wouldn't give us any hints as to what happened to the multiverse in the future. 

Meh. Thoughts, anyone? 

-------- 

v2 #7  What if Wolverine was an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.? 

The Watcher appears (presumably after WI2 #6 and before WI2 #8). 

Earth-616 temporal references: they actually got the phase of the moon right. Just as in H2 #181, it's a right-facing crescent (C). GSXM #1 was "several months" after H2 #181 (if the events of GSXM #1 occur at the same time in this dimension as they did in the MU). Strucker has waited "forty years" to kill Nick Fury, but that's one of those Marvel-time/real-time calendar references that need to be ignored or rationalized. 

This timeline branches off either at the end of H2 #181, or some time before that. In this reality, Wolvie isn't picked up six hours after first engaging the Hulk  but the next day. By this point, SHIELD has been heavily infiltrated by Hydra-controlled LMDs. As I don't recall a storyline like this ever occuring in the MU at the time of H2 #181, I'm going to assume that it only occurred in the divergent universe. And, unless Hydra began and implemented their plan  including manufacturing all the necessary LMDs  in the day between the end of H2 #181 and when SHIELD picks him up, then this universe diverged from the MU some time *before* Wolverine battled the Hulk. 

Pre-existing scenes: 

pp.2-3 panel 1  if this is meant to be a representation of anything from our Earth, it's a generic shot from H2 #181 (p.2 panel 1?). 

Notes: this issue also contains three joke sequences  What if Aunt May was a mutant with claws (she threatens Peter and MJ into staying for dessert), What if Captain America hadn't been thawed out (Eskimos pose for pictures with him), and What if the Punisher didn't use guns (he spanks criminals). Only the Cap one could conceivably be considered a canon dimension  but in it, he's posed and dressed differently than he is when he's found in A #4, so this reality probably diverged before Cap was frozen in 1945. No information relevant to Earth-616 is offered, and the Watcher does not appear. 

-------- 

v2 #46  What if Cable had destroyed the X-Men? 

The Watcher appears (presumably after WI2 #45 and next in WI2 #47). 

Earth-616 temporal references: none. 

This timeline branches off sometime between UX #266-269. 

Pre-existing scenes: none. 

-------- 

v2 #47  What if Magneto took over the USA? 

The Watcher appears (last in WI2 #46 and presumably before WI2 #49). 

Earth-616 temporal references: the Watcher last looked into this reality "recently" (in WI2 #46) "and now [does] so again". Although I'm inclined to place his appearance here directly after #46, if events somehow necessitate that he appears elsewhere between the two issues, it wont be a problem. 

This timeline continues from that shown in WI2 #46, and diverged sometime between UX #266-269. 

Pre-existing scenes: none. 

-------- 

v2 #49  What if the Silver Surfer possessed the Infinity Gauntlet 

The Watcher appears (presumably after WI2 #47 and before WI2 #50). 

Earth-616 temporal references: none. 

This timeline branches off at IG #4 p.36 panel 9. 

Pre-existing scenes: 
p.1 panel 1 ~ IG #4 p.35 panel 4 
p.1 panel 2 ~ IG #4 p.36 panels 2-4 (or 6-8) 
p.3  symbolic panel of Thanos' defeat of the heroes in IG #4. 
p.3  generic panel of the cosmic beings (from IG #4-5  #4 pp.39-40?). 
p.3  generic panel of Nebula wielding the Infinity Gauntlet (from IG #5-6  #6 p.2?) 
p.3  generic panel of Adam Warlock wielding the Infinity Gauntlet (from IG #6  p.35 panel 6?) 

-------- 

v2 #61  What if Spider-Man's parents destroyed his family? 

The Watcher appears (presumably after WI2 #60 and before WI2 #62). 

This timeline branches off sometime prior to ASM #388  I used to own the issues, but don't anymore. 

Pre-existing scenes: 

Like I said, I no longer own the issues, but the following exchange seems familiar: 

p.1 panel 2: 
Aunt May: "You want me to see a doctor? But I'm fit as a fiddle! My nerves may be a bit frazzled these days, but I have a tonic for that! 
Peter: "This is a special doctor, Aunt May. She wants to run some tests " 

p.1 panel 3: 
Peter: " see if there's anything making you see things that aren't  well  real." 
Aunt May: "Peter? You  you think I'm  losing my mind?" 

p.1 panel 4: 
"Richard": "Look, Mary  Peter's here!" 
"Mary": "We were just going into the city to look for you!" 
Aunt May: "You!" 

The Watcher says that in our reality, May never spoke up and confronted the phony Parkers  so that was the divergence point, right there in panel 4 between word balloons 2-3  but where does that correspond to in the MU? 

Earth-616 temporal references: the Watcher says that "in the world you know, Spider-Man spent the next few hours [right after the 616 divergence point] hunting down the Vulture"  another story reference that I can no longer accurately place. Green trees and jackets right after the divergence from 616  and the Bugle's Final edition (that same day?) forecasts the weather as "partly cloudy, chance of snow. High 25-30." (Presumably this would also be the weather forecast for that day in the MU.) Full moon that night, as usual.

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Posted: 20 Oct 2004 04:13 am    
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/earthqualostc.htm 

Quasar's going through the Watcher's portal to visit What If Worlds sprung from the events of Quasar#6 (January 1990). In that issue, Quasar chased the Living Laser to the moon. The Laser slipped into the Watcher's home, and saw the portal through which the Watcher observes alternate Earths. In this case, Uatu observed E105709-a world where the new X-Men died on their first mission, as seen in What If II#9 (January 1990). The Living Laser flew into the portal at some point after page 24 of that story. 

(This indicates, by the way, that the Watcher does not observe alternate Earths in any particular order, since the above world diverged from Earth-616 in Giant Size X-Men#1, which came out in 1975. This is important, since chronologizing his What If appearances has been a pet project many have thought of pursuing over the years.) 

The Living Laser inexplicably appeared in Iron Man I#258-261 with no explanation as to how he returned to Earth-616. So, in Quasar#30, the Watcher explained that the Earth-616 Living Laser encountered his E105709 counterpart, after which the Earth-616 Living Laser attempted to make his way back to Earth-616, so he went to the moon and went through the E105709 Watcher's portal. 

However, the Living Laser diverged in transit through the portal. One counterpart made it back to Earth-616, while the other counterpart went astray and went somewhere else. Everytime he realized he was not home, he went through the portal again, creating more and more counterparts. The Time Keepers, observing this, threatened to have the Watcher's alternate-reality viewing privileges revoked. 

(This issue explained that the Time Keepers authorized the Watcher's alternate Earth portal. A flashback showed the Time Keepers talking to the Watcher as he observed the alternate Earth where Xavier became the Juggernaut from What If II#13.) 

Other Alternate Earths Seen in This Issue 

Seven alternate Earths were affected by the wandering Living Laser. Quasar was dispatched to visit them to find the Living Laser. The Earths included: 

1. The world where Korvac attempted to conquer the universe and unleashed the Ultimate Nullifier. This world was seen in What If I#32 and in What If I#43/2. (Quasar arrives at some point before the What If I#43/2 story, since that story took place after Korvac had used the Nullifier, when the Doctor Strange, Phoenix, and Silver Surfer of that universe, whom Korvac had banished, returned to find the remains of their universe.) 

Or, rather, it was supposed to be this world. As the great Don Campbell points out 

"In QUASAR #30, Quasar arrived in this alternate Earth dimension just as Korvac was about to use the Ultimate Nullifier to destroy that universe. He quickly collected the Living Laser who had ended up in that dimension and then sped to the moon to use the Watchers portal to take him to the next alternate Earth. However, theres a problem. In the original What If story, Korvac did not grow to enormous size and sit on Earth until AFTER the moon was shattered as a result of the Strangers attempt to distract him from the kidnapping of Carina. If the Quasar story really took place in the alternate reality first seen in the What If story, then the moon should have already been reduced to a ring of debris orbiting Earth (as it was at the end of the WI story) by the time he got there. The fact that the moon in the Quasar story was still intact may mean that that story did NOT occur in the exact same reality as the What If story did. Maybe the Quasar story is actually set in yet another divergent reality, one which is also destroyed by Korvac but in which the events leading up to that point took a slightly different course? After all, as your profile pointed out, the story in Fantastic Four Annual #24 revealed that this timeline didn't quite diverge at the point that the WI story claimed it did so maybe its possible that other timelines could have diverged from this one during the course of the WI story. 
--Yes, or it was just an error in the Quasar story, and wherever Quasar went was only described as the moon. Maybe it was Titan, the moon of Saturn? 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/earthkorvacconquers.htm 

2. The world where the Avengers lost the Evolutionary War. (What If II#1) 

3. The world where Captain Marvel did not die of cancer. First seen in the humor issue, in one-panel of What If I#34, then seen again in What If II#14. 

4. The world where Wolverine became Lord of the Vampires from What If II#24 (note: a variation of this Earth appeared in What If II#37) 

5. The world where Spider-Man was not freed until too late from his alien costume from What If II#4. 

6. An Earth, which was shown in one panel of page 22 which involved the Phoenix, but not much else was given to identify it; however, since on the cover of the issue, the Phoenix appears in the form of Jean Grey, one could guess that it was the world seen in What If I#27, as well as in one panel of the humor issue What If I#34, and since Quasar comments "Is it my imagination, or is every single reality the Laser propragated himself into on the verge of destruction?", this also fits this world (since that Earth was destroyed by its Phoenix). (The world where Conan fought Wolverine from What If II#16 was also destroyed by the Phoenix, and could also be this Earth.) 

7. The world where Set came to Earth and conquered it from What If II#25. This was described as the last of the seven alternate Earths the Watcher told him to locate a renegade Laser. 

8. Finally, Quasar goes to Earth-Quasar Lost Cosmos in Collision. This was never shown in any issue of What If, by the way. In fact, Quasar never got his own issue of What If, and even comments while passing through Earths that he never seemed to encounter a world where he played an important role!

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Posted: 20 Oct 2004 07:28 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
More notes: Quasar #30 reveals that the MU Quasar, travelling dimensions, was present for the events of p.16 panel 2  the evolved mutants departing Earth en masse. I don't know if we'd give him a "~" entry for this (as in Q 30 ~ WI2 1-BTS), or just let the Q #30 entry cover it. Thoughts? 


I think the BTS would be preferrable. 

Quote: 
More notes: as I said above, Death and Eternity appear in this future segment. Are Death and Eternity pan-dimensional? 


No. In "What If Korvac Defeated The Avengers?", Korvac used the Ultimate Nullifier on his world's version of Eternity, thus destroying the universe (although a backup story in a later issue revealed that that world's versions of Dr. Strange, Silver Surfer and Phoenix survived). 

Quote: 
(Heck, the fact that Eternity left one dimension to enter another implies that he's a single-dimensionan entity  if he embodies all dimensions, how could he "leave one" and "enter another"?) 


By "dimension" I assume "universe" was originally meant. 

Quote: 
What if Captain America hadn't been thawed out [...] could conceivably be considered a canon dimension  but in it, he's posed and dressed differently than he is when he's found in A #4, so this reality probably diverged before Cap was frozen in 1945. 


There have been several What Ifs where Captain America remained frozen because Namor was unavailable to throw him into the watewr where he unthawed. "What If Captain America Led An Army of Super-Soldiers?" and "What If The Avengers Fought Galactus?" both featured worlds where the Human Torch died before helping Namor recover from his amnesia; "What If Namor Joined The Fantastic Four?" had Namor in vastly different circumstances that would have led to his never freeing Cap. 

Quote: 
The Watcher says that in our reality, May never spoke up and confronted the phony Parkers  so that was the divergence point, right there in panel 4 between word balloons 2-3  but where does that correspond to in the MU? 

Earth-616 temporal references: the Watcher says that "in the world you know, Spider-Man spent the next few hours [right after the 616 divergence point] hunting down the Vulture"  another story reference that I can no longer accurately place. 


All of this is from the "Lifetheft" arc in ASM. 

-Sean

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Posted: 24 Oct 2004 02:32 pm    Post subject: Living Tribunal's What If and Guardians of the Galaxy appear
By Enda80

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And how's this for a wrinkle: if there IS only one Eternity, then any appearance of him in a FUTURE timeline  alternate or not  would be canon too. Even though we consider all future stories to be "alternates" by default, and don't chronologize the characters shown under the assumption that the "real" MU won't end up flowing into that future  that wouldn't matter to Eternity. If he exists in ALL dimensions, he'd exist in ALL futures too. He would have no "alternate" future  instead he would have a set, concrete future, where he exists everywhere at once. 
<<<


Hey they that reminds me; the Living Tribunal is confirmed as a multiversal singularity....only one of him for the whole multiverse, so his What If appearances such as in I#32 and II#6 merit inclusion. So would his appearances in Guardians of the Galaxy. 

Also, the Living Tribunal appeared in last few issues of Adventures of the X-Men, where it was revealed that that whole series took place in the universe that existed before the Big Bang. 

19th Century CE 
b.1820 
Having been judged by the Living Tribunal in the 31st Century, the Hawk God is demoted and arrives on Arcturus, to stand in solitary confinement as a silent deity in the Forbidden City. [GOTG 49. The Hawk God was in the City for at least two "centuries" when the Ogord children found him in about 2020.] 

http://www.geocities.com/glakandar/gotw/times.htm

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Thread 122

Posted: 12 Oct 2004 07:58 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for DD2 #65
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

This extra length stand-alone issue is billed as being Daredevils 40th anniversary tribute, (though the actual anniversary was a few months back, this just came out in September). It basically shows how other superheroes in the Marvel Universe handled Daredevils secret identity being revealed to the press. Its also a chronology nightmare. Help me make sense of this. Please. 

Daredevil #65 
The Universe 
Written by Brian Michael Bendis 
Drawn by Alex Maleev, and a whole slew of guest artists 

Unlike my usual format, I think Im going to list Appearances and References for each scene, (as each scene will require its own set of analysis). 

Scene 1: (pages 1-5) 

Appearances: Matt Murdock, Foggy Nelson, Nick Fury, Reed Richards, (BTS) 

Synopsis: pg. 1 Narrative caption reads: 14 months ago This is supposedly the date on which Matt Murdocks identity as Daredevil appeared in the press. We start out by seeing Nick Fury looking at an online newspaper, which has the headline from DD# 32: Globe Exclusive: Pulp Hero of Hells Kitchen is Blind Lawyer 

Cut to Matt Murdocks office. Reporters surround him and Foggy as they walk up to the front door of their law office. They walk inside. Matt walks into his office to find Nick Fury in it. Fury asks Matt what hes going to do now that his life is over. Matt says hell be going about his usual business, ignoring the reporters outside. Fury says again that Matts life is over, but tells him he can start a new life. Fury offers him a new job as a SHIELD agent, saying that Matt Murdock/Daredevil can disappear, but Matt can still do a lot of good in the world as an undercover SHIELD agent. Matt turns Fury down, saying hell handle this mess his way, on his own. Fury teleports out of there, telling Murdock to give him a call when he wakes up and realizes this mess wont go away. 

References: The 14 months ago caption bugs me, because if you take into consideration all the events that have happened since Bendis took over the title in issue 26, and if you take the numerous 1 year ago since DD2 50 as truthI mean, its almost like Bendis forgot the Trail of the White Tiger from DD2 38-40, which supposedly took months. 

Pg. 2: Heres the problem with this scene: Its already been done before. As seen in the pages of DD2 #32-24. Matt came to the law office that morning to find Foggy already there, and Foggy then proceeds to chew him out for letting all this get so out of hand. Here, Foggy and Matt walk into the office together, swarmed by reporters outside, and Matt says, Foggy, lets order lunch in. To which Foggy replies, Thats what I get? Jokes? The implication being this is the first time theyve arrived at the office this morning, (and its before lunch). The only way we can make this work is if we come up with some sort of rationale for Matt and Foggy leaving the office for a bit that morning after meeting up as originally seen in DD2 #33. They then came back to the office and Nick Fury was waiting, as shown here. Maybe they stepped out to the mailbox to get the mail, then came back inside. 

Also on pg. 2: Matts secretary is taking numerous phone calls, and she tells Matt as he passes by that his 10 oclock appointment has cancelled. Matt asks who that is, and she says, Reed Richards. So this is a BTS appearance for Reed, (though why would he have an appointment with Matt?!?). 

Scene 2, (pgs. 6-11): 

Appearances: Peter Parker, Matt Murdock, Mr. Hyde, and Mary Jane Watson Parker. 

Synopsis: This is a reenactment of Peter Parkers involvement in the day when Matts secret identity was blown to the press. 

Pg. 6: Spiderman, swinging along through the city, happens to notice the headline of the newspapers this morning. He stops to read the headline over. The newspaper salesman tells Spiderman to take a hike, and that he could be next in having his secret identity revealed. This is a new scene. 

Pg. 7: Spiderman goes over to the Bugle to see what J. Jonah Jameson is making of all this. Weve seen this scene before. Peter goes into the press meeting to find Ben Urich standing up and saying that its all a lie, that Matt isnt really Daredevil, and he knows who Daredevil really is. Peter decides to back Ben, saying the same thing basically. Peter heads out the door of the Bugle, and Ben catches up to Peter, saying thanks for backing him up against Jameson. Both Ben and Peter stare at each other, wondering how the other knows Daredevils real identity. Peter fears Bens figured out hes Spiderman, (which is revealed to be true, as shown in the pages of the Pulse). 

Pg. 8: Cut to later on that evening. Now dressed back up in costume, Spiderman swings over to Murdocks office, to see the crowd of reporters outside. We see him sitting on a lamppost outside, watching the reporters below. Hes mad at the reporters, and thinking about going down there and giving them a chewing out. This is a new scene. 

Pg. 9: Just then, as Peters about to leave, Mr. Hyde makes his attack on the Murdock/Nelson law office, (as seen already in the pages of DD2 #35). Spidey comes down and starts to beat up Mr. Hyde, and Daredevil comes along and finishes off the job. The two superheroes flee the scene together. 

Pg. 10: A new scene. Having escaped the reporters, Spiderman and Daredevil are talking up on a rooftop. Spiderman offers his sympathies, and asks how he can help out. Daredevil basically turns down any offers of help. Daredevil tells Spiderman the best thing he can do is stay away from him. 

Pg. 11: Cut to later, (the same evening?) Peter is back home, sitting on the sofa, Mary Jane hugging him. But he has a worried expression on his face. Hes thinking about Matts predicament, and thinking that if the same thing ever happened to him, itd be 10 times worse. Cause he knows hed loose Mary Jane and Aunt May, and everything around him. 

References: 

Pg. 11: Mary Jane is with him, so this must happen after theyve gotten back together, as seen in ASM2 #50. 

Scene 3, (pgs 12-16): 

Appearances: Matt Murdock, Captain America 

Synopsis: Narrative Caption reads: 13 months ago. Inside Central Park, Matt Murdock meets up with Captain America. Matts in his civilian clothes, while Steve is wearing part of his uniform, (but his face is exposed). Matt says he cant be seen around Steve in uniform, but Steve gets Matt to stay briefly. Steve says, Why didnt you turn to us for help? Matt says he didnt want to drag the Avengers into the mess. Steve says the Avengers couldve put Matt under their umbrella for protection. Matt says, The politics you play? I wouldve ruined you along with me. Steve finally tries to comfort him, and says, These things happen for a reason, and maybe its a good reason. So they shake hands and go their separate ways. 

References: This is obviously after Captain America has revealed his identity to the public, as seen in CA4 #3. Steve says, Im public too. Its supposedly one month after the day DDs identity was revealed to the press, (going by the 14 months ago and 13 months ago narration) but I suppose it could go at any point between Matt coming back from Japan in DD2 #35 and before Matts defeating the Kingpin in DD2 #50. 

Scene 4, (pgs 17-19): 

Appearances: Daredevil, Kingpin, Punisher 

Synopsis: This is a recreation of those final pages of DD2 #50, with a slightly different twist. Apparently Frank Castle, the Punisher, was on the scene at that bar where DD declared himself the new Kingpin. We see Frank in a backroom of the bar, interrogating a thug for info about the Kingpin. He hears a crash, and peeks out the door of the back room to see Daredevil crashed a car into the bar, with the unconscious Wilson Fisk on the hood of the car. Daredevil gets up and gives his speech about Im the new Kingpin, now clean up or get out! Daredevil rips off his mask in this scene as well, to reveal hes Matt Murdock. Frank sees this from his position hiding in the back of the bar 

References: Ill just point out that Daredevil probably wouldve been able to pick up on Franks distinct heartbeat being in the bar. Both wouldve known the other is there at that scene. This just gives further credit to the placement of the events of that last Punisher story arc, (before going to the MAX), wherein we see Daredevil, Spiderman, and Wolverine teaming up to take Frank down. In that one scene where Frank calls up Matt Murdock, and Matt at first denies hes Daredevil, before Frank says, Give it a rest (or whatever). If this scene happened after DD2 50, there would be no reason for Matt to try and lie: because Frank was at the bar scene where Daredevil unmasked! He saw DD unmask, and Matt knows it, (or he should, going by his radar sense). 

The point is moot, since I think we solved placement for those Punisher issues months ago, but I just wanted to point this out 

Scene 5, (pages 20-25): 

Appearances: Daredevil, Punisher 

Synopsis: Narrative Caption reads: 10 months ago 

This is supposedly set during Daredevils 6 weeks of terror (as narrated by Ben Urich in DD2 #56). Daredevil busts some hoods in a warehouse who are doing some weapons smuggling. After knocking out all the bad guys, Daredevil walks over and picks up a suitcase full of guns or money, (its unclear). Punisher appears, aiming a gun at Daredevil, and says, What are you going to do with that shipment you just hijacked? Daredevil tells Frank to put the gun down. They get into an argument, with Frank telling Daredevil hes gone too far, and shouldnt have declared himself the new Kingpin. They get into a fight, and Daredevil basically kicks Franks ass, knocking him out cold. Daredevil picks up a cell phone and calls the FBI, to come and arrest Frank. 

References: The implication here is that Frank is taken into custodyeither he escaped shortly after being brought in, or he wakes up and escapes before the cops arrive after the end of this scene. Frank has to be free for the events in Punisher MAX to take place. 

Scene 6, (pages 26-32): 

Appearances: Matt Murdock, Reed Richards, Peter Parker, Luke Cage, Dr. Strange, Wong 

Synopsis: Narrative Caption reads, 12 months ago. This one must be an obvious typo. I say that because first of all, the narrative is moving this story forward, back up to the present day. But the last scene was 10 months ago, and now it says 12 months ago? Also, page 26 is pretty much an exact duplicate of the final bit of that confrontation between Matt and the four other superheroes, as narrated by Ben Urich in DD2 #56. Luke Cage says they are washing their hands of Matt, and Matt turns to Dr. Strange and asks if he has anything to say, (the others have done all the talking). Dr. Strange starts to recite a proverb, and Matt basically interrupts him, saying, Yeah, you know what? Fine. And walks away. This scene happened relatively recently, according to Bens narrative in DD2 #56. In the scene where Matt and Milla are walking home in the rain and are attacked by the Yakuza, they are talking about Matts confrontation with the other superheroes, (like it happened that same day, or just recentlyI dont believe the exact date is given by Ben, in his narration). So the 12 months ago narrative caption is just plain wrong. 

Pg. 27 to 32 is new material though. Same day as pg. 26. After Matt walks away from the others, he walks around town, in the pouring rain. He finally walks over to Dr. Stranges house, who invites him inside. Matt sits down to tea, served to him and Dr. Strange by Wong. Matt apologizes to Dr. Strange, saying of all of the superheroes that confronted him in the park, Strange is perhaps the one he has the most respect for, and he shouldnt have interrupted Stranges proverb. He says he looks up to Dr. Strange as somewhat of a spiritual guru. So he asks Strange to finish the proverb, but once he does, Matt finds it doesnt offer any guidance. Strange asks when was the last time Matt attended church, and Matt flashes back inside his head to the death of Karen Page inside the church, as seen in DD2 #5, (its a scene weve already seen before). Matt says its been a while. He makes an offhand comment about his wife, and Dr. Strange says, Your wife? Congratulations! So when did you and Karen get married? 

To which Matt replies hesitantly that its not Karen. Hes married someone else. Matt then asks Strange for a favor of sorts. He asks if there is any way to reverse thingsto make things go back to the way they once were. Hes basically asking for some sort of time travel spell, or some way to go back to before Matt became the Kingpin, before Matts identity was the talk of the press, before Karen died. But Dr. Strange tells him no, there is no way to do that. Matt sighs and says; I guess this is it then. This is my life. 

References: First, Im pretty sure that Dr. Strange DOES have a time travel spell, or something along the lines of what Matt was asking for. But thats not the way to fix your problems, so thats why Strange said No. 

Second, theres a big editorial screw up here! Dr. Strange was at the funeral for Karen Page in DD2 #8! Yet here Dr. Strange doesnt even know shes dead?!? She was a popular local DJ for a while, and as discussed in another thread, J. Jonah Jameson wrote a book about her death! Everyone knows shes dead! This was just bad writing, and bad editing 

Also, in the scenes from DD2 #56, (as narrated by Ben Urich) Matt has a goatee for this period when he didnt wear his costume. Well, here it looks more like facial hair, like a few days growth for a beard, but ehIm willing to interpret it as a goatee. 

Scene 7, (pgs 33-35): 

Okay, heres where it gets a little weird. Pages 33-35 are all splash page pinups. I guess theyre what would be called Bonus Pin Ups (to bad it doesnt say anywhere what theyre intended to be). Pg. 33 has Daredevil standing on top of a Gargoyle atop a building. Pg. 34 has DD fighting the Hulk! (or fighting alongside the Hulk, its unclear from the pin up). Pg. 35 has DD fighting a bunch of ninjas atop a building. 

Problem is, theres one final scene after these pin ups. So one could interpret these splash pages as part of the storyIm against that somewhat, because if this is during the 1 year period, then DD didnt wear his costume again till after the Yakuza attack. 

Scene 8, (pgs 36-37, or pgs 33-34 if you dont count those pinups): 

Appearances: Agent Del Toro of the FBI, (last seen in DD2 #59 I believe, wherein we saw Agent Driver killed by Yakuza. Agent Del Toro is taking up the case for him now). 

Narrative Caption reads Today. Which I take to mean were back after the events of last issue. 

Agent Del Toro is standing around the FBI headquarters going over the Murdock file. A coworker teases her about staring to hard at Matts picture. Del Toros boss comes along and hands her a memo. The memo states for all agents to be advised that Alexander Bont is being released from prison today. 

She asks her boss who Alexander Bont is, and he says, You know who Wilson Fisk, the Kingpin was, right? To which she says yes. The boss says, Alexander Bont was the Kingpin before the Kingpin. And Matt Murdock was his lawyer. 

And thats how it ends. Which leads us into our next arc, which I suspect will have numerous flashbacks. 

References: 

On the wall, where the FBI have pinned up photos of Matt Murdock, (the FBI is going over the case again it seems) they also have photos pined up showing the exact things we saw on the pin up pages from pgs. 33-35. Which would tend to make them real events that someone took photos of. Maybe theyre not recent events, and are from the past? But why put them up on the wall inside the FBI building now? 

Im still more in favor of not counting the stupid pin ups all together as being part of the story 

The Bendis War continuesmake the hurting stopplease
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 08:28 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Maybe the typo was supposed to say "2 months ago". That might fit better... 

Also, if the pin-ups are later shown as part of the FBI photo wall, then I believe they ARE meant to have been real events, and DID happen. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Oct 2004 09:20 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
The Bendis War continuesmake the hurting stopplease 
<<<

.... (Jeez, it's too late in the day for this...) 

Okay, I'm putting this baby off until the other analyses are addressed.  

I think Bendis' hobby is driving chronologists nuts.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Oct 2004 05:41 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Synopsis: Narrative Caption reads, 12 months ago. This one must be an obvious typo. 
<<<

"1.2 months ago" maybe? 


Quote: 
>>>
Second, theres a big editorial screw up here! Dr. Strange was at the funeral for Karen Page in DD2 #8! Yet here Dr. Strange doesnt even know shes dead?!? She was a popular local DJ for a while, and as discussed in another thread, J. Jonah Jameson wrote a book about her death! Everyone knows shes dead! This was just bad writing, and bad editing 
<<<

I attribute this to memory loss caused by Baron Mordo in the recent ASM arc that set up the Strange series... or not. 

-Sean

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Posted: 13 Oct 2004 07:15 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I attribute it to a phenomenon known as "death amnesia". Beta Ray Bill seems to have forgotten that Odin was dead too, recently. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Oct 2004 07:29 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Also, if the pin-ups are later shown as part of the FBI photo wall, then I believe they ARE meant to have been real events, and DID happen. 
<<<

That's somewhat how I see it too, but it's also what I'm afraid of... If they're recent events, then where do we fit them on the calender? DD fighting the Hulk? DD fighting ninja's?!? 

I'd rather these were "old" photos, and not recent events which will have to find a way to splice into the calender...but that's just me.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2004 08:18 pm  
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

What's wrong with DD fighting ninjas? Happens all the time. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 17 Oct 2004 09:27 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
The 14 months ago caption bugs me, because if you take into consideration all the events that have happened since Bendis took over the title in issue 26, and if you take the numerous 1 year ago since DD2 50 as truthI mean, its almost like Bendis forgot the Trail of the White Tiger from DD2 38-40, which supposedly took months.  
<<<

It bothers me, too. But then this is typical of Bendis' temporal messes. 


Quote: 
>>>
Heres the problem with this scene: Its already been done before. As seen in the pages of DD2 #32-24. Matt came to the law office that morning to find Foggy already there, and Foggy then proceeds to chew him out for letting all this get so out of hand. Here, Foggy and Matt walk into the office together, swarmed by reporters outside, and Matt says, Foggy, lets order lunch in. To which Foggy replies, Thats what I get? Jokes? The implication being this is the first time theyve arrived at the office this morning, (and its before lunch). The only way we can make this work is if we come up with some sort of rationale for Matt and Foggy leaving the office for a bit that morning after meeting up as originally seen in DD2 #33. They then came back to the office and Nick Fury was waiting, as shown here. Maybe they stepped out to the mailbox to get the mail, then came back inside.  
<<<

I'll go with that explanation, Kevin. Request: can you give a page/panel breakdown of how this DD2 65-FB sequences with DD2 33? 


Quote: 
>>>
Mary Jane is with him, so this must happen after theyve gotten back together, as seen in ASM2 #50. 
<<<

This totally sucks. I have the unmasking of DD occurring right smack dab in the middle of the period in which Peter and M.J. are apart! Argh! I have no idea how to reconcile this on the calendar... 
unless the scene with M.J. occurs much later than the rest of the unmasking flashback, namely sometime between ASM2 50 and DD2 50. Could the scene with M.J. show Peter reacting, say, to media coverage of Rosenthal's case against Matt in DD2 42-43? 


Quote: 
>>>
This is obviously after Captain America has revealed his identity to the public, as seen in CA4 #3. Steve says, Im public too. Its supposedly one month after the day DDs identity was revealed to the press, (going by the 14 months ago and 13 months ago narration) but I suppose it could go at any point between Matt coming back from Japan in DD2 #35 and before Matts defeating the Kingpin in DD2 #50.  
<<<

Well, the thirteen months reference certainly works better here than the fourteen months reference does in the previous scene. I may be inclined to call it thirteen months, inclusive, especially given that the next scene, during the six weeks after DD2 50, occurs ten months ago. 


Quote: 
>>>
This is a recreation of those final pages of DD2 #50, with a slightly different twist. Apparently Frank Castle, the Punisher, was on the scene at that bar where DD declared himself the new Kingpin. We see Frank in a backroom of the bar, interrogating a thug for info about the Kingpin. He hears a crash, and peeks out the door of the back room to see Daredevil crashed a car into the bar, with the unconscious Wilson Fisk on the hood of the car. Daredevil gets up and gives his speech about Im the new Kingpin, now clean up or get out! Daredevil rips off his mask in this scene as well, to reveal hes Matt Murdock. Frank sees this from his position hiding in the back of the bar  
<<<

Another request: can you give a page/panel breakdown of the sequence between this flashback in DD2 65 and DD2 50? 


Quote: 
>>>
The point is moot, since I think we solved placement for those Punisher issues months ago, but I just wanted to point this out  
<<<

And thanks for doing so. It confirms our placement of PUN6 33-35. 


Quote: 
>>>
Narrative Caption reads, 12 months ago. This one must be an obvious typo.  
<<<

Indeed, "two months" would work out very well. 


Quote: 
>>>
Second, theres a big editorial screw up here! Dr. Strange was at the funeral for Karen Page in DD2 #8! Yet here Dr. Strange doesnt even know shes dead?!?  
<<<

Maybe Strange knows more than Daredevil and we do.  


Quote: 
>>>
Narrative Caption reads Today. Which I take to mean were back after the events of last issue.  
<<<

Yes, and I'm inclined to place this scene in late October, just before Disassembled. 


Quote: 
>>>
On the wall, where the FBI have pinned up photos of Matt Murdock, (the FBI is going over the case again it seems) they also have photos pined up showing the exact things we saw on the pin up pages from pgs. 33-35. Which would tend to make them real events that someone took photos of. Maybe theyre not recent events, and are from the past? But why put them up on the wall inside the FBI building now? 
Im still more in favor of not counting the stupid pin ups all together as being part of the story  
<<<

I'm afraid I agree that as photographs in the MU (rather than as comic book pin-ups in the real world), they would count as appearances just as much as any other still photo or video. But who wants to even attempt to place 'em??
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 18 Oct 2004 09:41 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
What's wrong with DD fighting ninjas? Happens all the time. 
<<<

Yeah, but Daredevil gave up the costume for "a year", so it can't be from that period, and finding placement for this and the Hulk appearance amidst the current issues may prove difficult, it we place these events around recent issues. 


Quote: 
>>>
I'm afraid I agree that as photographs in the MU (rather than as comic book pin-ups in the real world), they would count as appearances just as much as any other still photo or video. But who wants to even attempt to place 'em 
<<<

Well, the fact that the "pin ups" occur in mid story, I suppose we're to conclude these are events that happen between the section in which Matt meets up with Dr. Strange, and the section noted as "Today", which is set at the FBI building in NYC. 

Well...the other option is to say these are old events...so do we take these to be old photos, from "years ago" or should we strive to put these pin ups in context of recent issues? 

If we say they are recent events, then they must occur AFTER DD2 59-60, when Matt resumes wearing the costume. I'd say place all 3 photo's (or pin-ups, or whatever they are) in between DD2 60 and DD2 61. There's not much of a time period there, though...maybe you could also put them in between DD2 64 and DD2 65, (the "Today" portion)...as for where the Hulk's appearance falls within his own chronology, I suppose I need to hurry up and finish my chronology review for the latest issues...  

Quote: 
>>>
This totally sucks. I have the unmasking of DD occurring right smack dab in the middle of the period in which Peter and M.J. are apart! Argh! I have no idea how to reconcile this on the calendar... 
unless the scene with M.J. occurs much later than the rest of the unmasking flashback, namely sometime between ASM2 50 and DD2 50. Could the scene with M.J. show Peter reacting, say, to media coverage of Rosenthal's case against Matt in DD2 42-43? 
<<<

Yes, it could. I mean, I suspect it's supposed to be interpretted as happening the same night as the rest of the events in the sequence, but the artwork for the section is one where we have a splash page of artwork on the left side of the page, and a column of text on the right side of the page, (which is Peter's narrative). I suppose the scene of Peter and Mary Jane sitting on the sofa at home, with Peter having a worried expression on his face, could occur at a much later date. The narrative is broad enough to allow this, (or so I feel). 

Well, here, let me reprint the text: 

"But at least now I know what I was feeling all day. It wasn't guilt. It feels like guilt. It feels a lot like guilt. But no, it was dread. All-consuming dread. Because now that they have a taste of it. Blood. Murdock's...eventually they'll get sick of him or totally destroy him, and I'm pretty sure I'm next. And in my head I go over every stupid time my mask ripped, or the eye lens popped out, or someone got the better of me and yanked the mask right off my stupid head. And I think about poor Harry Osborn and Norman Osborn, and Gwen Stacy. I think about the look Ben Urich gave me today. And how stupid I was for even going over there. And all of a sudden I feel the sharp, damp chill on my forehead. Because now I know what the worst case scenario looks like and feels like. And as bad as it was for him, I think for me, it'll be worse. For me it'll be everything I ever loved. My wife, my Aunt, my job, my everything. Destroyed. Gone. Looks like I already lost a friend. Good luck, Matt." 

I'll get those page/panel breakdown's to you tomorrow... 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*
Posted: 19 Oct 2004 06:31 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
"I think about the look Ben Urich gave me today." 
<<<

Is this quotation supposed to reflect what Peter was thinking when he was home with M.J.? If so, then it's clear that DD's unmasking is supposed to happen during a time when Pete and M.J. were together. Sigh.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 08:57 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
"I think about the look Ben Urich gave me today." 
<<<
Is this quotation supposed to reflect what Peter was thinking when he was home with M.J.? If so, then it's clear that DD's unmasking is supposed to happen during a time when Pete and M.J. were together. Sigh. 
<<<

Yes, I suppose so...but eh, I'm sure you can find some way out of this mess....for instance: Even when they were seperated, Mary Jane and Peter were still friendly towards one another. Maybe she happened to be in town, and was visiting Peter...although she's kinda hugging Peter in the panel... 

Looks like I won't be able to get those panel breakdown's to you till tomorrow, more than likely...it's one of those nights...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Oct 2004 09:01 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I'll go with that explanation, Kevin. Request: can you give a page/panel breakdown of how this DD2 65-FB sequences with DD2 33? 
<<<

Well, it appears I need to clarify this. After going back and reviewing the issues, I've refreshed my memory. DD2 32-35: All scenes with Matt and Foggy discussing Matt's identity being revealed to the press happen at Matt's HOME. I was unclear about this before now...I had thought that the attack by Mr. Hyde in DD2 35 happened at Matt's office, but no, Mr. Hyde attacks Matt's home... 

So since the scene in DD2 65-FB happens at Matt's office, the only possible way to make this work is as follows: Insert this new scene on the calender between DAREDEVIL v2 #33 (19-22) and DAREDEVIL v2 #34. 

So events happen as follows: 

Foggy sees the newspaper with Matt on the cover. He goes over to Matt's place after reading the newspaper. Foggy warns Matt to give up being Daredevil. They go to the office. Nick Fury is waiting inside Matt's office. Foggy and Matt then head home. Foggy continues trying to convince Matt to give up being Daredevil, (as narrated in DD2 34) but Matt puts on his costume and goes out for a bit, to come back and find Mr. Hyde attacking his house. 

The narrative beween Foggy and Matt in DD2 34 would've suggested that it's a direct continuation from DD2 33, (19-22) but we could just say they paused the talks of Matt hanging up the costume to go into work, (to act like everything's normal, and they're going about their daily business). That's the only possible way I see to insert this new flashback in DD2 65. 

Let me know if that helps, or if I've confused you. 

Quote: 
>>>
Another request: can you give a page/panel breakdown of the sequence between this flashback in DD2 65 and DD2 50?  
<<<

Really, the pages tell exactly the same story... 

DD2 50 is brokedown as follows: Pg. 1-20 feature DD breaking in on Kingpin's meeting in the parking lot outside of Josie's bar. They fight, and Matt wins. 

pg. 21-23: Features Matt ramming the car into the bar, with Kingpin on the hood of the car. He gives the "clean up or get out" speech. 

DD2 65 pgs. 17-19 is brokedown as follows: 

pg 17: panel 1-4: Punisher interrogates a Kingpin flunkie in the backroom of the bar. 

Panel 5: Frank hears a crash in the main bar area. He lets the thug go... 

Panel 6: He peeks out the door into the main bar area, as he hears Matt's voice, starting to give his speech...really, from here on, the scene is the same, except we see Frank peeking out from a backroom. Both scenes end with Matt declaring himself the new Kingpin, and telling all the thugs to "Look at him!" (referring to the beaten Wilson Fisk on the floor). 

So wouldn't this be on the calender 

DD2 50, pages 21-23 ~ DD2 65, pages 17-19 (FB) 

(or something like that...)
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Oct 2004 06:21 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
So wouldn't this be on the calender 
<<<

DD2 50, pages 21-23 ~ DD2 65, pages 17-19 (FB)  


Hey, Kevin. I'm actually looking for a more precise breakdown. Something like this... 

DD2 50 (1-20) 
DD2 65-FB (17p1-17p4) 
DD2 50 (21p1) -- DD crashes car 
DD2 65-FB (17p5) -- Punisher hears crash 
DD2 50 (21px-whatever) -- chaos ensues 
DD2 50 (xpx) ~ DD2 65-FB (17p6) -- Matt begins speech 
DD2 50 (18-23) -- DD wrap up 
DD2 65-FB (18-19) -- Punisher wrap up 

I know it's not exactly like this, but the idea is to break things up a bit more, if possible.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 21 Oct 2004 07:38 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Ah, I see...well, I started to go that route, but didn't know how far you wanted to go... 

Well, try this: 

DD2 50 (1-20). Daredevil breaks in on Wilson Fisk's big ganglord meeting. He and Daredevil fight, and Daredevil knocks Fisk unconsious. 

I'll just go ahead and break down entirely the rest of the pages that we're dealing with here... 

DD2 50, pg 21: Panel 1: A shot of the exterior of Josie's Bar. 

Panel 2: A car comes charging towards the bar , Fisk on the hood of the car. 

Panel 3: The car crashes into the bar. 

Panel 4: A shot of Fisk unconsious on the floor of the bar in front of the car. Daredevil starts giving "the speech" "Listen and listen good!" 

Panel 5: A shot of Daredevil standing over Fisk's unconsious body. He's still talking. 

Page 22: 

Panel 1: A shot of the people in the bar standing back in shock, all scared of DD. We see DD's arm, which is pointing down at Fisk. 

Matt is still giving "the speech" throughout this page. 

Panel 2: Cut to a close up on DD's face. Now we see Matt has taken off the mask, showing who he is. 

Panel 3: Cut back to the people, who are still scared 

Panel 4: A shot of DD standing over Fisk, telling people to clean up or get out, tonight! 

Panel 5: The thugs in the bar look down at Kingpin's unconsious body. 

Page 23: A splash page, showing a close up on Fisk's unconsious face. DD tells them: "Look at him!" 

The end. 

DD2 65, page 17-19: 

pg. 17: panel 1: Punisher is choking a Kingpin thug. 

panel 2: Close up on the thug's face, as he chokes. 

panel 3: Close up on Frank's face. Frank demands information on where the Kingpin is. 

panel 4: Close up on the thug's face. He's gasping for breath, (someone should tell Frank, you really can't interrogate a person if they're choking to death)... 

Panel 5: Frank hears a crash in the main bar area. He lets the thug go... 

Panel 6: He peeks out the door into the main bar area, as he hears Matt's voice, starting to give his speech... 

"Listen and listen good!" 

pg. 18: 

Panel 1: Daredevil is standing over the Fisk's body, giving the speech. By the way, the words match exactly with what is said in DD2 50. 

Panel 2: We see the looks on the faces of the thugs. They're intimidated. In the back of the panel, we can see Frank peaking out from a back room, observing all this. 

Pg. 19: 

Panel 1: Close up on Matt, as he rips off his mask. 

Panel 2: Cut to a close up on Frank's face, peaking out of the back room, a scowl upon his face. Matt's still talking, he's telling everyone to clean up or get out. 

Panel 3: Cut to Daredevil, still standing over Fisk, telling the people to stare down at Fisk. 

Panel 4: Close up on Matt's face. He yells: "Look at him!!!" 

The End of the scene. 


So, I *think* that would look something like this: 

DD2 50 (1-21p2) 
DD2 65-FB (17p1-17p4) 
DD2 50 (21p3-23) ~ DD2 65-FB (17p5-19) 

Or does it get even more broke down because the panels are slightly different in the DD2 65 version?
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Oct 2004 09:28 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Let's see if I have this right... 

DD2 50 (1-20). Daredevil breaks in on Wilson Fisk's big ganglord meeting. He and Daredevil fight, and Daredevil knocks Fisk unconscious. 

DD2 50 
pg. 21: panel 1: A shot of the exterior of Josie's Bar. 
pg. 21, panel 2: A car comes charging towards the bar , Fisk on the hood of the car. 

DD2 65  FB 
pg. 17: panel 1: Punisher is choking a Kingpin thug. 
pg. 17: panel 2: Close up on the thug's face, as he chokes. 
pg. 17: panel 3: Close up on Frank's face. Frank demands information on where the Kingpin is. 
pg. 17: panel 4: Close up on the thug's face. He's gasping for breath, (someone should tell Frank, you really can't interrogate a person if they're choking to death)... 

DD2 50 
pg. 21: panel 3: The car crashes into the bar. 

DD2 65-FB 
pg. 17: panel 5: Frank hears a crash in the main bar area. He lets the thug go... 

DD2 50 
pg. 21: panel 4: A shot of Fisk unconscious on the floor of the bar in front of the car. Daredevil starts giving "the speech" "Listen and listen good!" 
~ DD2 65-FB 
pg. 17: panel 6: He peeks out the door into the main bar area, as he hears Matt's voice, starting to give his speech..."Listen and listen good!" 

DD2 50 
pg. 21: panel 5: A shot of Daredevil standing over Fisk's unconscious body. He's still talking. 
~ DD2 65-FB 
pg. 18: panel 1: Daredevil is standing over the Fisk's body, giving the speech. By the way, the words match exactly with what is said in DD2 50. 

DD2 50 
pg. 22: panel 1: A shot of the people in the bar standing back in shock, all scared of DD. We see DD's arm, which is pointing down at Fisk. Matt is still giving "the speech" throughout this page. 

DD2 65-FB 
pg. 18: panel 2: We see the looks on the faces of the thugs. They're intimidated. In the back of the panel, we can see Frank peaking out from a back room, observing all this. 
pg. 19: panel 1: Close up on Matt, as he rips off his mask. 

DD2 50 
pg. 22: panel 2: Cut to a close up on DD's face. Now we see Matt has taken off the mask, showing who he is. 
pg. 22: panel 3: Cut back to the people, who are still scared 

DD2 50 
pg. 22: panel 4: A shot of DD standing over Fisk, telling people to clean up or get out, tonight! 
~ DD2 65-FB 
pg. 19: panel 2: Cut to a close up on Frank's face, peaking out of the back room, a scowl upon his face. Matt's still talking, he's telling everyone to clean up or get out. 

DD2 65-FB 
pg. 19: panel 3: Cut to Daredevil, still standing over Fisk, telling the people to stare down at Fisk. 

DD2 50 
pg. 22: panel 5: The thugs in the bar look down at Kingpin's unconsious body. 

DD2 50 
pg. 22: page 23: A splash page, showing a close up on Fisk's unconsious face. DD tells them: "Look at him!" 
~ DD2 65-FB 
pg. 19: panel 4: Close up on Matt's face. He yells: "Look at him!!!"
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 22 Oct 2004 04:11 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Bingo! Yes, that looks right to me. I'm amazed, you actually managed to put that in a logical order...! 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 22 Oct 2004 06:48 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

So here's how it ends up looking on the calendar... 

DAREDEVIL v2 #50 (1-21p2) 
Early the morning after DD2 49. It is almost a year to the day before DD2 56. It is a weekend day before Sunday. Daredevil breaks in on Wilson Fisks big gang lord meeting. He and Daredevil fight and Daredevil knocks Fisk unconscious. A car comes charging towards Josies Bar, with Fisk on the hood. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #65  FB (17p1-17p4) 
The same morning as DD2 50 (1-21). Punisher chokes a Kingpin thug and demands information on the Kingpins whereabouts. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #50 (21p3) 
The same morning as DD2 65-FB (17). The car crashes into the bar. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #65-FB (17p5) 
The same morning as DD2 50 (21p3). Frank hears a crash in the main bar area and lets the thug go. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #50 (21p4-21p5) ~ DAREDEVIL v2 #65  FB (17p6-18p1) 
The same morning as DD2 65-FB (17p5). Fisk lies unconscious on the floor of the bar and Daredevil starts giving a speech. Frank peeks out the door into the main bar area, as he hears Matt giving his speech. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #50 (22p1) 
The same morning as DD2 50 (21p4-21p5). The people in the bar stand back in shock, all scared of Daredevil, who points down at Fisk as he continues his speech. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #65  FB (18p2-19p1) 
The same morning as DD2 50 (22p1). The thugs are intimidated by DD as Frank peaks out from the back room. DD rips off his mask. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #50 (22p2-22p3) 
The same morning as DD2 65-FB (18-19). Matt has taken off the mask, showing who he is, and the thugs are still scared 
DAREDEVIL v2 #50 (22p4) ~ DAREDEVIL v2 #65  FB (19p2) 
The same morning as DD2 50 (22p2-22p3). Daredevil stands over Fisk and tells the thugs to clean up or get out tonight. Frank continues to peek from the back room. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #65  FB (19p3) 
The same morning as DD2 50 (22p4). Daredevil tells the thugs to stare down at Fisk. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #50 (22p5) 
The same morning as DD2 65-FB (19p3). The thugs in the bar look down at Kingpins unconscious body. 
DAREDEVIL v2 50 (22-23) ~ DAREDEVIL v2 #65  FB (19p4) 
The same morning as DD2 50 (22p5). Matt yells at the thugs again to look at Fisk.
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Paul B.

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Posted: 23 Oct 2004 03:05 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Pg. 11: Mary Jane is with him, so this must happen after theyve gotten back together, as seen in ASM2 #50.  
<<<

Well, I've come to the conclusion that M.J. appears here with Peter during the extensive length of time they were separated. I just can't make DD's or Spidey's chronologies work without this conclusion. 

But I do have a rationale for M.J. being there. First, keep in mind that we do know that M.J. got together socially with Peter on at least one occasion during the separation -- for the previous Christmas in TW 21. So a visit is not entirely out of the question. 

Second, remember that the Kang War would have ended just a couple of weeks before the revelation of DD's identity. The chaos and uncertainty of that event might have forced an attempt at reconciliation. 

Third, Peter's anxious thoughts following the revelation of DD's identity, as shown in this flashback in DD2 65, may have put a damper on this theorized reconciliation attempt. The next time we know Peter tries to contact M.J. is a month later, in PPSM2 42. 

Does this make sense? Moreover, will it make sense when an MCP visitor sees this flashback in this spot in Spidey's and M.J.'s chronologies? It looks like another one of those chronology sequences that on the surface doesn't look correct but must be so.
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Paul B.

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Posted: 23 Oct 2004 03:24 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Well, my feeling is that the casual MCP goer will look through the listings, and expect the listings to go by publication date probably more than anything else...now granted, this is a 2004 comic, and the original "DD's secret is out!" storyarc came in early 2002...this was a period when Mary Jane and Peter were actually seperated...I see this as another instance of sloppy writing/editing on the part of Bendis and Marvel. 

What I guess I'm saying is that your rationale works for me...Peter and Mary Jane shouldn't be together during this period, but Bendis wrote it in, so we do have to find an excuse for their being together here...
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With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 23 Oct 2004 03:26 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
Pg. 9: Just then, as Peters about to leave, Mr. Hyde makes his attack on the Murdock/Nelson law office, (as seen already in the pages of DD2 #35). Spidey comes down and starts to beat up Mr. Hyde, and Daredevil comes along and finishes off the job. The two superheroes flee the scene together.  


Is there new material on page 9? If so, how does it weave into DD2 35?
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Paul B.

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Posted: 23 Oct 2004 03:42 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Nope. No new material on page 9. It's a splash page that's a compilation of the Mr. Hyde sequence. It shows Mr. Hyde throwing the news van at Murdock's house, and it shows DD punching Mr. Hyde, knocking Hyde out...
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With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 23 Oct 2004 03:51 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

One more question, Kevin. Where within DD2 56-FB (10-21) does DD2 65-FB (20-25) occur? In other words, where does the break between the scene with the heroes and the Yakuza scene appear in DD2 56-FB?
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Paul B.

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Posted: 24 Oct 2004 03:42 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

I'll have to check on that tomorrow late tonight or tomorrow; I'm not at my house today, and am using a friends computer.  

However, I think you mean DD2 65, pages 26-32, not pages 20-25. 20-25 is the 2nd half of the "Punisher scene" where Punisher confronts DD about being the new Kingpin.
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With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 24 Oct 2004 08:43 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Yup, that's what I meant. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 10:18 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Sorry for the delay. I had to track my copy of DD2 56 down. The flashback with Matt and the other superheroes confronting him in the park goes from pages 12 to 17 of DD2 56. Page 18 cuts to Matt and Milla walking home in the rain, and getting attacked by the Yakuza. So I guess the break you're looking for is between pages 17 and 18 of DD2 56. 

But wait...no, I guess it's a bit more complicated then that. As I believe I mentioned, DD2 65, pages 26 to 32, (the scene with Matt and Dr. Strange) starts out with the end of the DD2 56 scene. It's pretty much the same scene, though I've noticed some differences, and actually, the DD2 56 scene drags on a tad bit longer. 

To save you the trouble of asking, I'll just break it down: 

pg. 12-15: Matt arrives in the park. He's confronted by Peter Parker, Luke Cage, Dr. Strange, and Reed Richards. They argue. 

pg. 16, panel 1: A close up on Murdock: "So...Is that what you REALLY came down here to say? You're washing your hands of me?" 

Panel 2: A close up on Luke Cage, with Reed standing behind him: Cage "No, I'm saying you keep this up...you washed your hands of us." 

Reed: "I just want you to think about the balance we bring to the people--" 

Panel 3: A close up on Matt. Matt: "Nothing out of you, Dr. Strange?" 

Panel 4: A close up on Dr. Strange. Strange: "The Ancient One once told me a wise proverb that said..." 

Panel 5: Matt turns around and walks away. As he goes, he says, "Yeah, you know what? Fine." 

Panel 6: Matt walks down the sidewalk... 

Panel 7: Matt stops at an intersection, his radar notices a FBI van across the street...they're tailing him, keeping an eye on him. 

Page 17: Matt stares at the van, while inside the van, the FBI agents, led by Agent Driver, realize he's figured out they're following him around. That's the end of this scene then. Pg. 18 cuts to Matt and Milla walking home in the rain, (it's not raining in the prior scene). 

DD2 65: pgs. 26-32: 

Page 26: This is for the most part a duplicate of the prior scene. 

Panel 1: A huge panel, with all the heroes talking: 

"So...Is that what you REALLY came down here to say? You're washing your hands of me?" 

Cage "No, I'm saying you keep this up...you washed your hands of us." 

Reed: "I just want you to think about the balance we bring to the people--" 

Matt: "Nothing out of you, Dr. Strange?" 

Panel 2: A close up on Strange's face. He stares at Matt, pausing before speaking. 

Panel 3: Matt starts to walk away in this panel... 

Strange: "The Ancient One once told me a wise proverb that said..." 

Matt: "Yeah, you know what? Fine." 

Panel 4: Matt is now down the street, apparently stopped at the street corner. 

Panel 5: A close up on Matt's face. He's pausing in reflection, regretting what he said to Dr. Strange, (going by the next few pages, that's what I conclude...or it could be he's focusing his radar on the FBI van across the street, as seen in DD2 56...) 

Panel 6: Cut to later. Matt is being rained upon. 

Page 27: We are now clearly in a new scene. Matt is standing in the rain outside of Dr. Strange's house. Dr. Strange invites him in. 

Does this help you any, Paul?
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With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 06:03 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks, Kevin. I'm going to ignore the slight differences in that scene with the heroes and enter these scenes thusly: 

DAREDEVIL v2 #56  FB (10-17) 
One day. Reed Richards appears here with an unscarred face; this flashback likely occurs after FF 511. The Democratic Party of New York asks Matt (with goatee) to run for mayor of the city on their ticket and tell him that an official request will come at a dinner tomorrow. Matt then meets Reed Richards, Luke Cage, Peter Parker, and Stephen Strange in a park, where we see short sleeves, green trees, and what appears to be warm weather. As the FBI surveys the situation, the four chastize Matt for going too far and an argument ensues; they feel Matt has become a dictator, something about which Reed should know. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #65  FB (26p4-32) 
The same rainy day as DD2 56-FB (10-17). It must be 2 months, not 12 months, before DD2 65. It is a while after DD2 5. After Matt leaves the other heroes, he walks around town and finally goes to Dr. Stranges house for advice and assistance. Mention of Karen Pages death seems to surprise Strange, who should know better, as he attended Karens funeral. Matts facial hair doesnt quite match his goatee in DD2 56-FB (10-17). 
DAREDEVIL v2 #56  FB (18-22) 
The same rainy night as DD2 65-FB (26-32). During a thunderstorm, Matt is attacked by a gang of Yakuza thugs. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #57  FB 
The same rainy night as DD2 56-FB (18-22). Matt battles the Yakuza, sustaining heavy injury. When the FBI arrive on the scene, Matt is gone.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 07:15 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Sounds good Paul. Looks like we might finally have this all sorted out.
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With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Thread 123

Posted: 28 Sep 2004 01:02 pm    Post subject: Runaways #11-18
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

The remaining issues of RUNAWAYS. Nice and straightforward, actually. It's clear that the entire first run doesn't last all that long. I'm not going to bother noting full moons - suffice to say that it's ALWAYS a full moon in RUNAWAYS, so there's no point paying attention to them. 

First, some important flashbacks: 

* RUNAWAYS #13, pages 3-10, 13-17 (flashback). "Twenty years ago." The future parents of the Runaways, who haven't previously met, are teleported to the undersea Vivarium of the Gibborim. The Gibborim are three giant mystical creatures from Jewish mythology. (They aren't given individual names.) The Gibborim explain that they intend to wipe out the human race and restore the earth to paradise. However, they lack the power to do something on that scale. They enlist the twelve as their Pride, whose job is to kill people and obtain lifeforce to empower the Gibborim. In exchange, six of the Pride will be allowed to survive the Gibborim's apocalypse and become immortal in the utopian future. The Pride accept. 

Characters: Geoffrey & Catherine Wilder, Dale & Stacey Yorkes, Gene & Alice Hayes, Victor & Janet Stein, Robert & Tina Minoru, Frank & Leslie Dean, the Gibborim 

* RUNAWAYS #13, pages 19-21. Eighteen years ago (since Chase was 17 in issue #1). The Pride are in the middle of performing that year's Rite of Blood (the ritual killing we saw in issue #1) when Janet Stein announces that she is pregnant. The Pride are initially baffled that the Steins would want to have a child when they are trying to help the Gibborim destroy the human race. But the Steins explain that they plan to sacrifice their place in paradise for their child. Inspired by this, the other couples also decide to have a single child each. All of the Pride will be survived by their child in the Gibborim's new world. 

Characters: Geoffrey & Catherine Wilder, Dale & Stacey Yorkes, Gene & Alice Hayes, Victor & Janet Stein, Robert & Tina Minoru, Frank & Leslie Dean, the Gibborim 

* RUNAWAYS #18, page 1. A photograph showing the future Runaways and all twelve of their parents. Daylight; the clothes are the same as the flashback in issue #17, so this was a photo taken earlier in the day before the previous year's Rite of Blood. This is the Runaways' chronologically earliest appearance. 

* RUNAWAYS #17, page 4. The day of last year's Rite of Blood. The kids are left to watch TV. Alex wanders off and finds the secret passage. On his own, he goes in and sees the Rite of Blood. He is naturally shocked. 

[All of the Runaways appear in this flashback. All of the Pride must be present, but the Steins and Yorkes are off panel.] 

* RUNAWAYS #17, page 5. Over the following days, Alex sneaks into his father's basement study at night. He finds books about the Pride and reads up on them. He concludes that the Pride are trying to bring about paradise, and are therefore heroes. 

Character: Alex Wilder 

* RUNAWAYS #17, page 6. The Minorus and the Deans break into Alex's father's office. They have agreed a scheme to eventually kill the other six members of the Pride. They plan to enter paradise themselves, accompanied by their children. However, the Abstract book is a magical artefact and records the future history of the Pride (apparently changing as events fluctuate). They must therefore tear out the relevant pages so that they are not exposed. Alex overhears all of this and thereby learns about the scheme. 

Characters: Alex Wilder, the Minorus, the Deans. 

From this Alex ends up deciding to manipulate the other Runaways to help him stop the coup and secure his own parents' position - which is what he's been up to in the series so far. Right, back to the present day stuff. 

* RUNAWAYS #11, pages 1-13. Evening. Cloak and Dagger arrive in LA, having been called in by Lt Flores (the corrupt police officer workingfor the Pride). He gives them the Pride's cover story that the older Runaways abducted the younger ones, and sends them off to catch the team. Meanwhile, the Runaways decide to go out on a supply run into town (apparently the first time they've done so). Flores meets with the Pride and tells them what he's done. They're furious - he's just invited superheroes into their territory. Mrs Wilder shoots him in the knee. 

Characters: The Runaways, Old Lace, the Pride, Lt Flores, Cloak, Dagger 

[Cloak and Dagger mention during this storyline that in an unpublished adventure their powers were reset to their original status. So we're back with the Dark Dimension and so forth. No details are given.] 

* RUNAWAYS #11, pages 14-23. 12.12am. The Runaways drive into town and stop to fight some vandals (the only criminals they can find). Cloak and Dagger attack. Cloak consumes Alex, Lucy in the Sky, Talkback and Sister Grimm in his cloak. 

Characters: The Runaways, Old Lace, Cloak & Dagger 

* RUNAWAYS #12. Direct continuation. To everyone's amazement, Bruiser manages to tear off Cloak's cloak. Arsenic and Bruiser persuade Cloak & Dagger that they've been duped. The heroes manage to reattach the cloak, and Cloak brings back Alex, LITS, Talkback and Sister Grimm. Cloak & Dagger tell the Runaways that they will return to New York and alert the Avengers to the Pride. The Runaways refuse to go with them, but agree to lie low until the Avengers arrive. 1.23am. The Runaways stop to buy food on their way home. Alex breaks away and phones Flores to tip him off about Cloak & Dagger's whereabouts. Flores alerts the Pride. The Pride (well, four of them) attack and defeat Cloak & Dagger. They wipe Cloak & Dagger's memories and send them back to New York with no recollection of meeting of the Runaways. 

Characters: the Runaways, Old Lace, Cloak & Dagger, Lt Flores, Frank Dean, Victor Stein, the Hayes. 

* RUNAWAYS #13. Three weeks later. [NB: Issues #13-18 all take place in 24 hours. It's afternoon at this point.] The Runaways have been hiding out at their Hostel base. It's finally dawning on them that the Avengers aren't coming. Alex announces that he's finished decoding the Abstract, and relates the origin of the Pride (see flashbacks above). Flores arrives with the police in tow, having been tipped off by Alex. 

Characters: The Runaways, Old Lace, Lt Flores 

* RUNAWAYS #14. Same day, 4.30-7.30pm. The Runaways fight Flores and his police officers. The Hostel collapses in the fight. The Runaways use their powers to dig their way to freedom. They regroup and decide to go after their parents that night, now that they have nowhere to hide out. Mr Wilder and Mr Stein show up at the Hostel's wreckage. Finally fed up of Flores' incompetence, they kill him. Meanwhile, other members of the Pride prepare for that night's Rite of Thunder (in which they will travel to the Vivarium again and present the Gibborim with the soul of the girl they killed in issue #1). The Deans and the Hayes are planning to kill the other members of the Pride that night. 

Characters: The Runaways, Old Lace, Lt Flores, Mr Wilder, Mr Stein, the Deans, the Hayes 

* RUNAWAYS #15. Same day, 8pm to 10.50pm. The Pride gather at the Wilders' house. They board a vehicle called the Leapfrog which has been designed by the Steins; it flies and travels underwater. With the Pride aboard, the Leapfrog sets off for the Gibborim's undersea Vivarium off the west coast of California. The Runaways follow; Sister Grimm casts a spell to get them to the Vivarium. When they arrive, they are attacked by an animated statue which serves as a guard. Alex deliberately delays in using the password which shuts it down, and Talkback is seemingly killed. 

Characters: The Runaways, Old Lace, the Pride 

* RUNAWAYS #16. A period of around half an hour starting at 11pm. CPR saves Talkback's life, but he is in no condition to fight, so the Runaways leave him behind and go on to face their parents. The Runaways fight the Pride. During the fight, Alex reveals himself as the traitor. Ultimately, only Alex and his parents are left standing. 

Characters: The Runaways, Old Lace, the Pride 

* RUNAWAYS #17, pages 1 to 16. Ten minutes to midnight, and counting. Alex explains his hidden agenda. He and his parents invite Sister Grimm and her parents to join THEM in utopia, and kill the rest of the Pride. Sister Grimm refuses. The Steins and the Yorkes realise that everyone else in the Pride is trying to kill them, and the fight breaks out again. Talkback arrives, piloting the Leapfrog. Bruiser destroys the vessel which holds the girl's soul, and it disappears into the ether. The Pride realise that they're screwed, but too late, because... 

MIDNIGHT. 

* RUNAWAYS #17, pages 17 to 23. Not often we can place it this precisely! The Gibborim appear, and they're not happy. Where's their food? Alex tries to show how grown-up he is by accepting responsibility. The Gibborim promptly vapourise him. The Pride fight the Gibborim in order to buy the remaining Runaways time to escape. The Runaways board the Leapfrog and escape the Vivarium. Moments later, it explodes. The Pride are presumably killed (*cough cough*). On arriving back at the coast, the five remaining Runaways are met by Captain America. (It's not actually clear what he's doing there. Maybe Cloak & Dagger's memory wipe wore off after a bit, and they phoned the Avengers after all.) 

Characters: The Runaways, Old Lace, the Pride, the Gibborim, Captain America 

* RUNAWAYS #18, pages 2-3 (flashback). News footage shot "recently", relative to the main story, which itself comes "three months" after the Pride were exposed. Captain America, the Scarlet Witch and the Vision are at LA City Hall, where they've apparently just arrested some Pride agents. Accompanying narration suggests that this has been happening fairly regularly over the last few months. Journalists ask Cap whether it's true that the Runaways stopped the Pride. Cap dodges the question and lectures everyone about the dangers of underage superheroics. (And yes, the journalist promptly cites Bucky and asks him why he's being such a hypocrite.) 

Characters: Captain America, Vision, Scarlet Witch. 

* RUNAWAYS #18. Early hours of the morning. The five remaining Runaways meet up at the observatory again. We're told that Gert and Nico have been in orphanages; Molly has been in the custody of the X-Corporation; Karolina has been placed with foster parents; and Chase has already run away, though he turns up for this meeting. None of them are happy with the situation. Chase announces that he has found out where Old Lace is being held. They go there - a warehouse in downtown LA - fight their way past robot guards, and free Old Lace. They also recover the Leapfrog. The Runaways decide not to return to their new homes. Instead they board the Leapfrog and go on the run. End of series. 

Characters: The Runaways, Old Lace.
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-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 Oct 2004 01:44 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Paul, 

Let me extend an overdue note of appreciation to you for submitting this analysis. A few quick questions: 

1) Does issue #11 pick up right after issue #10 or is there a gap there? 

2) I think you're saying that the flashback on page 6 of issue #17 occurs days after the flashback on page 4, and that the flashback on page 5 spans those days. Is that right? 

3) I think you're saying that issue #18 and its flashback occur three months after issue #17. Is that right? 

4) I'm assuming the full moons pertain to the main story in issues #11-17. Is there also one in issue #18? 

Thanks!
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 08:28 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

1) There's no clear indication about the passage of time between issues #10-11; however, the fact that the kids are only starting to complain aobut their lack of food in issue #11 and their unwashed clothes in issue #13 suggests that it can't have been that long. The news reports of the alleged kidnap, from issue #6, must also presumably be fairly recent, since that's what Cloak & Dagger think they've been called in to deal with. 

2) Yes. 

3) Yes. The newsreader in issue #18 (who introduces the flashback sequence) says that it's been "three months" since the Pride were exposed - which presumably occurred immediately on the surviving Runaways being found by the Avengers. They told Cloak & Dagger immediately, after all, so there's no reason why they'd delay here. 

4) There are full moons everywhere. It's always a full moon in RUNAWAYS. They have no practical value as chronological guides, in my view. As far as I can see, the moon remains stubbornly full throughout the entire run of the series, despite this being manifestly impossible in light of the timeline.
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-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 08:07 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Thanks much for the added info on these issues. I'll add these to the calendar right away and scratch another item off my backlog. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 124

Posted: 28 Mar 2004 09:40 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for Hulk: Gray #1 - 6
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Chronology review for Hulk: Grey miniseries issues 1 thru 6 


General Summary: This miniseries begins, (like the other "Spectrum" miniseries), in 'the present' before cutting back to the past in a series of flashbacks. The scenes set in the present happen over the course of one rainy evening, as Banner and Samson get together at Samson's office to have a impromptu 'therapy session'. Please note I'm not as familiar with the Hulk's early appearances as I am with, say, Spiderman. I've read Hulk #1, (well, a reprint) but not much more than that, (as far as his early Silver Age appearances go). I'll note every single scene that occurs in the flashbacks, but I'll need you guys' help to determine what's a replay of previous events, and what is brand new Flashback material. 


Hulk: Grey #1 
Written by Jeph Loeb 
Drawn by Tim Sale 

Appearances: Bruce Banner, Doc Samson, (in present), Bruce Banner, Betty Ross, Rick Jones, General Ross, (in flashback). 

Synopsis: 

PAGES 1 THRU 5: Banner meets up with Samson at Samson's office, seeking his old friend's company. 

Banner notes mentally, "I should keep moving. Whoever it is that is chasing me - and it always is someone - will know to look here. Particularly on this day...what would've been - should've been my wedding anniversary." 


This notes two things: Banner is on the run again, (a reaccuring feature in his life) and since he doesn't know who's after him, I suspect strongly this is in the early days of the current Bruce Jones storyline of the Hulk title, (starting in issue #34). In fact, it's probably before Issue #34, (though how much before is uncertain), as by that issue, Banner has been framed for the 'death' of Ricky Myers, and has the mysterious laptop computer through which he remains in contact with 'Mr. Blue'. None of these plot elements are mentioned here, so maybe the 'Secret Conspiracy' hasn't fully emerged as Banner's true foe yet, (and that's why Banner's unsure of who is chasing him). 

The other point to note is that Banner says, "would've been, should've been" my wedding anniversary. So Banner still thinks his wife is dead at this point, (and doesn't know that she is 'Mr. Blue' and alive and well). So it's clearly before Hulk #60 to 65. 

Samson and Banner begin talking, and start a therapy session of sorts. Samson asks him to open up, and Banner decides to talk about his early days as the Hulk, going right back to the day he became the Hulk. 

PAGES 6 - 7: We see, in flashback, the classic scene of Banner getting hit by the Gamma Bomb, (after having thrown Rick Jones in the trench) before diving into the trench himself. 

PAGE 8 - 9: We cut to General Ross in the bunker of the army base, after the Gamma Bomb went off. He has just realized that Banner was out there in the field. Betty enters the control room asking her father what happened to Bruce. He takes her out of the Control Room and tells her that Bruce is probably dead. 

Banner, (in narration to Samson) says about this scene, "Betty once told me that this was the moment her father found out about...us. In her hysteria, she revealed to the only man who had ever cared for her that she had feelings for me." I don't know if that matches previous history. 

PAGE 10-20: A reenactment of the moment in the doctor's office where Banner becomes the Hulk for the first time, before Rick's eyes. He bursts out of the office, and an army jeep crashes into him, and Hulk has his first tussle with the army. He then leaps away... 

PAGE 21 - 22: Cut to a short time later. Gen. Ross is at his home with Betty, when Ross gets the phone call about some sort of monster attacking his troops. He leaves, telling Betty to lock the doors. Outside, we see the Grey Hulk standing outside Betty's house, looking in at her, longingly. 

Other chronology comments: 

None, besides that it's raining outside of Samson's office in the present day. 

Speaking of "Samson's office" I still don't know where it's at...Banner was staying there, (or at Samson's personal house, but aren't they one and the same?) during the Paul Jenkins run on the title, (Hulk #15 to Hulk #32, while he was dying from Lou Gehrig's Disease). I think this was the place where Banner would return to inbetween his exploits as the Hulk with the Defenders, (the version written by Busiek and Larson), so maybe he's returning here one last time before truly going out 'on the run from the authorities' starting in Hulk #34. 

Hulk: Grey #2 
Written by Jeph Loeb 
Drawn by Tim Sale 

Appearances: Bruce Banner, Doc Samson, (in present, though we only hear their narration as they discuss the past, we don't actually see them), Bruce Banner, Betty Ross, Rick Jones, General Ross, (in flashback). 

Synopsis: CONTINUES FROM WHERE WE LEFT OFF, WITH SAMSON AND BANNER DISCUSSING THE EVENTS SHOWN IN FLASHBACK. THE FLASHBACK CONTINUES FROM WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE, WITH THE GREY HULK OUTSIDE BETTY'S DOOR. 

PAGE 1 - 10: The Grey Hulk goes up and knocks on Betty's door. She stupidly opens it, and comes face to face with the Hulk, who faints in his arms. He turns around, carrying Betty, only to be confronted by Gen. Ross, (who apparently didn't have time to leave, before spotting the Hulk snooping around his own house. He's called up a bunch of troops, all of whom have their rifles aimed on the Hulk. Before they can fire, the Hulk stomps his foot, sending the troops tumbling to the ground. He lays Betty down and goes jumping off into the night. 

PAGE 11 - 12: Cut to a short time later. Ross has put Betty to bed, giving her a sleeping pill to help her rest after the traumatic events of the day. 

PAGE 13 - 22: Banner's narration notes that this is "the next day". Banner wakes up to find Rick standing over him. Rick tracked him down due to the trail of devastation left in the Hulk's wake, (we see army jeeps and crashed helicopters litering the desert floor). Banner is in shock of what he has become. Rick says he's going to help Banner in any way needed. So Banner leads Rick to an cave, deep within which is a vault. Banner says he's going to lock himself inside, and Rick isn't to open it up unless it's Banner he's talking to. Rick agrees, but thinks Banner may need help. He waits around (how long is uncertain) for Banner to ask from within to be let out, but instead, is surprised to hear the walls start shaking, as the Grey Hulk yells from within to be let out. Rick is scared silly, but doesn't let Hulk out... 

References: 

Besides what's mentioned above, I'll just note that there's no mention whatsoever of the Gremlin, and Banner's trip to Russia, (which happened shortly after he became the Hulk for the first time, as I recall). I mean, yeah, the "Gremlin episode" was cheesy as hell, and we'd all like to forget it, but it's still a part of the Hulk's history...isn't it? 

Hulk: Grey #3 
written by Jeph Loeb 
Drawn by Tim Sale 

Appearances: Bruce Banner, Doc Samson, (in present, though we only hear their narration as they discuss the past, we don't actually see them), The Hulk, Betty Ross, Rick Jones, General Ross, Tony Stark, (in flashback). 

Synopsis: STILL IN FLASHBACK MODE, ON WHAT IS PROBABLY A FEW NIGHTS LATER. The implication seems to be that Rick and Banner have been on the run from the military for a few nights now. 

PAGES 1 - 8: We see Grey Hulk sitting outside on a bluff top, holding a desert hare in his huge hands. He thinks he has a new friend, but he accidently crushes the bunny in his huge hands. Enraged at this loss, Hulk strikes the ground, causing an earthquake, and Hulk is caught underneath a mountain of falling rocks. 

PAGE 9: Meanwhile, somewhere else in the desert that night, Rick Jones is caught out in the desert by the U.S. Military. They knock him out. 

PAGE 10 - 13: Cut to a short time later, as Rick Jones wakes up in a Army interrogation room, with Gen. Ross interrogating him. Gen. Ross says, (about Rick and the Hulk) "People have seen the two of you together." Ross leaves the room and speaks to Tony Stark, who was watching the interrogation from the other room. Betty Ross comes in and asks Gen. Ross if there's any word on Bruce being found yet. He says none yet, (Bruce hasn't reappeared since showing up at that clinic where he first became the Hulk). 

PAGE 14 - 15: The Hulk bursts out of the rubble he was caught underneath, and finds Rick's jacket nearby, (the army yanked it off of him). Hulk concludes the Army has Rick, and jumps off to the Army Base. 

PAGE 16 - 19: The interrogation resumes, with Betty and Tony Stark watching from the other room. Gen. Ross slaps Rick around when the boy won't talk. Just then, Hulk bursts in, knocking over Ross, injuring him. He frees Rick, and when Betty rushes in to help her unconsious father, Hulk picks her up and leaps off into the night with her. Rick runs off by himself. Tony Stark calmly walks in and basically tells the slowly recovering Ross, "I'll take it from here, Ross." He's been brought on by the army to use his 'secret weapon' to catch the Hulk. 

PAGES 20-22: Cut to a short time later. Hulk is next to a lake, giving the fainted Betty some water, to get her to wake up. But just then, Iron Man appears, and tells the Hulk to let her go. 

References: Okay, first let's deal with Tony Stark. He's seen at the Army base, with a glass of alcohol in his hands, and comes across as somewhat smug, (like the famous playboy he was shown to be). On the last page, he's in the 1st Golden Iron Man armor, (the first armor he wore was grey. This is the 1st Golden armor, which always reminds me of cheesy 50's Scifi movie robots). I thought Tony couldn't take off the armor in his first few appearances, because of the damage to his heart? When did he get that fixed anyway? And this is supposedly before Avengers #1, seeing as Hulk and Iron Man act like they've never met before. 

When Samson asks Banner, (in the narration) why he's never heard of the incidents referred to in this issue, Banner says, "Let's just say, it was in everyone's best interest to keep it on a "Need to Know" basis...and evidently, Dr. Leonard Samson, PhD, M.D. doesn't need to know." 

And so that's their explanation for why we have never heard of this "first encounter" between Tony Stark and the Hulk before. 

Hulk: Grey #4 
Written by Jeph Loeb 
Drawn by Tim Sale 

Appearances: Bruce Banner, Doc Samson, (in present, though we only hear their narration as they discuss the past, we don't actually see them), The Hulk, Betty Ross, General Ross, Tony Stark, (in flashback). 

Synopsis: CONTINUES FROM WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE. This entire issue details the battle between Iron Man and the Hulk, with Betty on the sidelines. Basically, though they start off pretty evenly matched, Hulk eventually kicks Iron Man's ass. Betty fears the Hulk will accidently kill the man inside the armor, and so rushes forward, accidently getting herself knocked upside the head by the wild swinging punches of the Hulk. She's tossed backwards and hits her head on a rock. Hulk stops beating up the now unconsious Iron Man, and picks up the injured Betty and leaps off into the night. A short time later, Ross and his soldiers show up, see that Iron Man was defeated, and resume their hunt for the Hulk and Betty. 

References: More conversation between Samson and Banner in the narrative, about this battle which has never been documented before. I'll let the narration speak for itself: 

Samson: "What is this story you're telling me?" 

Banner: "I don't understand the question." 

Samson: "Bruce, I've read about every known battle the Hulk...you...have had. The Hulk never met Iron Man while he was Gray. In fact, when the Avengers were founded, THAT'S when they first encountered each other. It's in the Avengers' Archives. Iron Man himself recorded most of those early adventures. They're in the Stark Foundation Library-" 

Banner: "Stark Industries was the nation's leading munitions manufacturer at the time. You do the math. 

Samson: "You're claiming there was a cover-up by both the Govt. and Tony Stark? Bruce, that's -" 

Banner: "Leonard - shut up and listen to the story." 

Here's my question: Does Leonard know Tony Stark and Iron Man are one and the same by this point? And does this narration excuse this battle we've never seen before? 

Hulk: Grey #5 
Written by Jeph Loeb 
Drawn by Tim Sale 

Appearances: Bruce Banner, Doc Samson, (in present, though we only hear their narration as they discuss the past, we don't actually see them), The Hulk, Betty Ross, General Ross, (in flashback). 

Synopsis: PICKS UP A SHORT TIME LATER AFTER THE EVENTS OF LAST ISSUE. I SUPPOSE IT COULD BE THE FOLLOWING NIGHT, BUT BETTY IS STILL UNCONSIOUS FROM THE BLOW SHE TOOK LAST ISSUE. I BELIEVE IT'S LATER ON THAT SAME NIGHT. 

PAGES 1 - 4: Hulk breaks intoa gas station, (that's closed for the night) to get a first aid kit from the bathroom. The police pull up just in time to see Hulk leap away. 

PAGES 5 -22: Hulk goes back to a place up in the Desert Mountains, where he's placed Betty. She's unconsious, and he does his best to patch her up, (in a kinda funny scene, he places bandages all over the left side of her face). She wakes up, and using the medical kit, she properly dresses the blow to her head. Her and the Hulk have a heart to heart, as she tries to figure out what the Hulk could possibly want out of her. She asks to be let go, but Hulk wants her to stay with him, saying he'll protect her. She's cold, so after lightning strikes nearby, (it's raining outside from page 5 onward) he goes and grabs the tree hit by lightning, and brings it's flaming form back, laying it before her to keep warm. They try to understand one another, but it's like they're speaking two different languages. Just then, on the last page, a military chopper flies up, Gen. Ross inside... 

References: None, besides the fact that it's storming outside from page 5 onward, out in the desert. 

Hulk: Grey #6 
Written by Jeph Loeb 
Drawn by Tim Sale 

Appearances: Bruce Banner, Doc Samson, (in present, though we only hear their narration as they discuss the past, we don't actually see them), Bruce Banner, Betty Ross, Rick Jones, General Ross, (in flashback). 

PAGES 1 - 16: PICKS UP FROM WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST ISSUE. 

Hulk leaps into the sky and forces the chopper Ross is in to crash. Yanking Ross out of the crashed chopper, Hulk and Ross take turns yelling at each other, trying to paint each other as the bigger monster. The army arrives, and Ross orders them to fire on the Hulk, but Betty leaps forward and begs them not to fire. They don't fire, and Ross is furious. Betty says, "They know the bullets would bounce off the Hulk and hit you!" But Ross is perfectly willing to die a martyr if it'll prove that the Hulk is a monster, (figuring his death would be seen to be at the 'Hulk's hands'). 

Betty calmly pleads to the Hulk to let him go, and Hulk is confused, saying he doesn't understand why Betty loves Gen. Ross, when he does nothing but hurt her. But Hulk tosses Ross to the side and leaps off into the night. 

PAGES 17 - 18: Cut to some time later, (it could be the next day, it could be many days later). Bruce and Rick head back to the military base. Bruce says he went back because he didn't want it thought that the Hulk was responsible for Banner's death. He says, "I'd didn't know then that I'd always be on the run." 

So Bruce and Rick walk calmly up to the military gate, and out march Ross and Betty, shocked to find Banner is alive after all. Ross asks Banner where the devil he's been. Banner weakly explains he got lost out in the desert, but Rick here found him. This infuriates Ross, who complains about how they've spent precious military time searching for him. Ross starts calling Banner all sorts of insults, (not unlike Banner's abusive dad, if I do say so myself) and Betty steps inbetween the two of them and says, "Stop it! STOP IT! DADDY, YOU'RE AS HORRIBLE AS THAT HULK!" 

PAGES 19-22: Now we cut back to the present. It's dawn outside now. The rain has stopped. Now the two friends pause, as Banner goes over that last line said by Betty from the story he was telling. (And the two of them have been hinting throughout the last few issues at how similar Ross and the Hulk are). I'll let the last few lines speak for themselves, (because it is a pretty powerful ending). 

Banner: "So...that was it then...the "Why" of it all. Why Betty stayed with me all those years...even after she found out - after the ENTIRE WORLD found out that Bruce Banner is the Hulk." 

Samson: "Bruce, don't go there." 

Banner: "She loved me because she saw the Monster as something familiar...as something...someone...she could love." 

Samson: "Not everything is as black and white as you're saying-" 

Banner: "Dammit, Leonard, I've known this ALL ALONG. I was juist too much of a coward to admit it. Me. Ross. What's the difference?" 

Samson: "Bruce. Calm down." 

But Banner becomes the Green Hulk, (it appears to be Classic Stupid Hulk) and smashs out of the office, leaping off into the sky. 

The final words come as Hulk pauses on a mountain off in the distance, looking down at a picture of Betty which Banner was holding in the back in the office, (Stupid Hulk carried the photo off): 

Banner, (narrative words): "She's gone now...There are so many other stories of what happened afterwards...But...they will now always be colored by the knowledge that she loved me for all the wrong reasons..." 

Fear not, Banner! She's back alive now! And maybe you can finally figure out once and for all what she ever saw in you! (Hey, it's a sad ending, and with Betty back alive now, I for one hope Bruce and Betty can finally find happiness...yeah, unlikely, I know). 

References: Besides the stuff mentioned above, during the battle sequence in this issue between Ross and Hulk, Samson says, "Bruce...it's nearly dawn...but we have to be practical. That sun is going to come up and whoever it is that is looking for you is going to have a much easier time of it..." 

But Banner decides to stick around a few more minutes to finish his story. I only mention this because it's another reference to the fact that someone, (or some group) is after Banner, and he's on the run... 

That's it. The End. Let me know if you have any questions.
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 28 Mar 2004 10:17 pm    Post subject: Continuity problems
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
The other point to note is that Banner says, "would've been, should've been" my wedding anniversary. So Banner still thinks his wife is dead at this point, (and doesn't know that she is 'Mr. Blue' and alive and well). So it's clearly before Hulk #60 to 65.  


The wedding anniversary would place Hulk:Grey on the same calendar date as H2 319. Unfortunately, I haven't yet worked out the calendar details for that period in MU history. 


Quote: 
Here's my question: Does Leonard know Tony Stark and Iron Man are one and the same by this point? And does this narration excuse this battle we've never seen before?  


I don't believe Leonard knew Iron Man's true identity until the rest of the world found out in IM3 55/2, which is placed on the calendar on June 30, during the long gap between H3 33 and 34. So according to your assessment, this would place Hulk: Grey between IM 55/2 and H3 34, which we have on November 21. If H2 319 ends up on a date between June 30 and November 21, we're good. 


Quote: 
References: Okay, first let's deal with Tony Stark. He's seen at the Army base, with a glass of alcohol in his hands, and comes across as somewhat smug, (like the famous playboy he was shown to be). On the last page, he's in the 1st Golden Iron Man armor, (the first armor he wore was grey. This is the 1st Golden armor, which always reminds me of cheesy 50's Scifi movie robots). I thought Tony couldn't take off the armor in his first few appearances, because of the damage to his heart? When did he get that fixed anyway? And this is supposedly before Avengers #1, seeing as Hulk and Iron Man act like they've never met before.  


Okay, here's the deal. The flashbacks in Hulk:Grey create yet another conundrum that could have been avoided. 

Clearly, the flashbacks are meant to occur before the Hulk turns green -- that is, before H 2. According to the Marvel Saga, Iron Man didn't even exist then! (And in the real world, Iron Man's debut postdated the Hulk's by 10 months!) 

The Marvel Saga places TOS 40 -- the issue in which Tony Stark paints the Iron Man armor gold -- between H 5 and H 5/2. This is long after the presumed setting of the flashbacks in Hulk: Grey. 

Argghhh!!! 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Mar 2004 12:13 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
The Marvel Saga places TOS 40 -- the issue in which Tony Stark paints the Iron Man armor gold -- between H 5 and H 5/2. This is long after the presumed setting of the flashbacks in Hulk: Grey. 

Argghhh!!!  
<<<


I wonder if the Marvel Saga placement was based on in-story evidence or an arbitrary decision. ("We have to place it somewhere; let's put it in the middle of Hulk 5.") 

If the latter, perhaps this is evidence to the contrary, and the references in Marvel Saga should be updated. I think I've seen this happen to Olshevsky, too. 


watching: dave the barbarian

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Posted: 29 Mar 2004 07:11 am    Post subject: Accommodating Hulk: Gray
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

The Marvel Saga was based on known character chronologies, but I believe that in cases in which those chronologies allowed for leeway, the Saga tried to stick roughly to publication order. SO, maybe here's an argument for not relying too heavily on publication order!  

I should preface this by saying that I don't have the actual comics from this time period, or even reprints. However, I do believe it is possible to move Iron Man's debut back to a point before the Hulk's. 

It looks like we can do the following: 

FF 4 -- contemporaneous with Tales of the Marvels: Inner Demons, in which Tony Stark appears, in all likelihood before TOS 39 

Then TOS 39 (and various continuity implants interwoven into this time from The Iron Age, Age of Innocence, IM '00-FB, IM 144/2, IM 244-FB) -- the debut of Iron Man 

Then TOS 40 -- the armor is painted gold 

Then H 1 and the flashbacks in Hulk: Grey 

Then H 2 -- Hulk now green 

Then FF 5 -- as noted in the Marvel Saga 

I don't believe there are any in-story references that would make this ordering impossible, but I could be wrong. 

If someone has H 1 and H2 312 (in which a flashback adds new scenes to the Hulk origin story, IIRC), I wonder if we could weave a page-by-page, panel-by-panel storyline from those two sources and the flashbacks in Hulk: Gray.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Mar 2004 08:06 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
maybe here's an argument for not relying too heavily on publication order!   
<<<


It says the opposite to me. Marvel seems to say, "If there's nothing in the stories that contradicts publication order, then we place the stories in publication order. If information in the story indicates that the stories don't occur in publication order, then of course, we'll let the stories themselves determine the order." 


watching: american morning

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Posted: 29 Mar 2004 12:05 pm    Post subject: Publication dates
By dimadick

If publication dates alone are left to determine order of early events concerning the Fantastic Four, the Hulk and Iron Man then the order without taking account of later retcons would be as following: 

1)Fantastic Four #1 - November, 1961. Debut of Human Torch II, Invisible Girl, Mole Man, Mr. Fantastic and the Thing. 

2)Fantastic Four #2 - January, 1962. Debut of the Skrulls. 

3)Fantastic Four #3 - March, 1962. Debut of the Miracle Man. 

4)Fantastic Four #4 - May, 1962. Re-introduction of Sub-Mariner. Debut of Giganto. 

Incredible Hulk #1 - May, 1962. Debut of Robert Bruce Banner the Incredible Hulk, General Thadeus "Thunderbolt" Ross, Betty Ross, Igor Drenkov, Richard Milhouse "Rick" Jones and Gargoyle/Yuri Topolov. 

5)Fantastic Four #5 - July, 1962. Debut of Doctor Doom. 

Incredible Hulk #2 - July, 1962. Debut of the Toad Men. The Hulk changes his skin color from Grey to Green. 

6)Fantastic Four #6 - September, 1962. First alliance between Sub-Mariner and Dr. Doom. Yancy Street Gang first mentioned. 

Incredible Hulk #3 - September, 1962. Debut of the Citcus of Crime (Ring-Master/Maynard Tiboldt, Human Cannonball/Jack Pulver, Bruto the Strong Man, Teena the Fat Lady). Previously nocturnal, Hulk first operates in daytime. 

7)Fantastic Four #7 - October, 1962. Debut of Kurrgo, Master of Planet X. 

8)Fantastic Four #8 - November, 1962. Debut of Puppet Master and Alicia Masters. 

Incredible Hulk #4 - November, 1962. Debut of Mongu/Boris Monguski. 

9)Fantastic Four #9 - December, 1962. The Fantastic Four first go bankrupt and regain their fortune. Debut of S. M Studios (Sub Mariner Studios) . 

10)Fantastic Four #10 - January, 1963. Dr. Doom returns from space and first exchanges bodies with Mr. Fantastic. 

Incredible Hulk #5 - January, 1963. Debut of Turannus/Romulus Augustulus(Roman Emperor 475-476) and Chinese General Fang. 

11)Fantastic Four #11 - February, 1963. Re-introduction to Willie Lumpkin . Debut of the Impossible Man. 

12)Fantastic Four #12 - March, 1963. First Crossover between the Fantastic Four and the Incredible Hulk. 

Incredible Hulk #6 - March, 1963. Series ends. Bruce and Betty reveal their mutual affection to Thadeus. Debut of Metal Master/Molyb of Astra and the Teen Brigade(Rick Jones, Mike Armstrong, Bill Bishop, KC Ritter, Tom Smith). 

Tales of Suspense #39 - March, 1963. Debut of Iron Man. 

13)Fantastic Four #13 - April, 1963. Debut of Uatu the Watcher, Red Ghost and his Super Apes (Igor ,Mikhlo, Peator). 

Tales of Suspense #40 - April, 1963. Debut of Gargantus II. 

14)Fantastic Four #14 - May, 1963. Puppet Master returns from the dead and manipulates the Sub-Mariner against the Fantastic Four. 

Tales of Suspense #41 - May, 1963. Debut of Doctor Strange the Criminal Scientist and his daughter Carla. 

15)Fantastic Four #15 - June, 1963. Debut of Mad Thinker and his Awesome Android. 

Tales of Suspense #42 - June, 1963. Debut of Red Barbarian and Actor. 

16)Fantastic Four #16 - July, 1963. First Crossover between the Fantastic Four and Ant-Man (much too cute according to the Invisible Girl). First cameo of Wasp in the series. First alliance against Doctor Doom. Debut of Princess Pearla of the Microverse, fiancee to Doctor Doom and potential girlfriend to the Human Torch II. 

Tales of Suspense #43 - July, 1963. Debut of Kala, Queen of the Netherworld. 

17)Fantastic Four #17 - August, 1963. Doctor Doom first asks John Fitzgerald Kennedy for a position in his cabinet. 

Tales of Suspense #44 - August, 1963. Debut of Mad Pharaoh Hatap. A time-traveling Iron Man refuses the offer of Cleopatra VII of Egypt (December, 70 BC/January 69 BC - August 12, 30 BC, reigned Spring , 51 BC to her death) to become her consort. 

18)Fantastic Four #18 - September, 1963. Debut of the Super-Skrull. 

Tales of Suspense #45 - September, 1963. Debut of Jack Frost/Gregor Shapanka. 

Avengers #1 - September, 1963. Hulk, Iron Man, Ant-Man, Wasp and Thor form the Avengers. 

19)Fantastic Four #19 - October, 1963. Debut of Rama-Tut. 

Tales of Suspense #46 - October, 1963. Debut of Crimson Dynamo/Anton Vanko. 

Any particular reason to maintain this order of events? Reasons against it?

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Posted: 29 Mar 2004 04:44 pm    Post subject: Hulk and Iron Man
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Dimadick wrote: 
Quote: 
>>>
Any particular reason to maintain this order of events? Reasons against it? 
<<<


Well...um...as noted earlier, Hulk: Gray is giving us a reason to re-order things, with TOS 40 occurring before H 1 rather than in publication order. 


Administrator wrote: 
Quote: 
>>>
It says the opposite to me. Marvel seems to say, "If there's nothing in the stories that contradicts publication order, then we place the stories in publication order. If information in the story indicates that the stories don't occur in publication order, then of course, we'll let the stories themselves determine the order."  
<<<

My point is just that Marvel writers don't necessarily consider publication order to be a sacred cow. I agree -- evidence should suggest placing things out of publication order. We've had disagreements about what constitutes evidence, but I think we're all willing to reorganize things if need be -- like in this instance with Hulk: Gray.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Mar 2004 02:04 am    Post subject: Contradictions
By dimadick

I get the point. I just notice a contradiction between the recent retcons. Hulk:Gray would place the first couple of Iron Man stories before the debut of the Hulk rather than after it. Crimson Dynamo would have Tony Stark be 18 years old and not yet Iron Man at the time of Tales of Suspense #46 rather than having already become Iron Man and joined the Avengers. Both can't be right. 

I just wonder how the order of publication dates and the established chronology of the characters compare to the recent revisions. 

Thankfully the order of publication becomes mostly irrelevant after Avengers #2 (November, 1963). That issue established that the Avengers hold monthly meetings while their book continued to be published bi-monthly till Avengers #6 (July, 1964).

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Posted: 30 Mar 2004 03:35 am
By Starman

Would it help anything in the Hulk chronology if we consider Hulk being gray in both H1 and H2, and in the beginning of H3 as he's the "Hulk by night" in those issues, until he becomes the "mind-controlled-by-Rick-Jones-Hulk" in H3. Or would that just complicate things? 

One of the Gray Hulk's trademarks, except for the intelligence, are that he is only Gray Hulk during the night, until he got that spell from Jarella's world that allowed him to be Gray Hulk on the day too for awhile until the spell wore off. 

Can one kinda disregard the Hulk being green in H2 and beginning of H3 as a colouring error? I haven't found him being referenced as being green in the text of those issues. 

Would extending his time as gray to this help in chronologizing?
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

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Posted: 30 Mar 2004 09:16 pm    Post subject: Retcons and Continuity Implants
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
I just notice a contradiction between the recent retcons. Hulk:Gray would place the first couple of Iron Man stories before the debut of the Hulk rather than after it. Crimson Dynamo would have Tony Stark be 18 years old and not yet Iron Man at the time of Tales of Suspense #46 rather than having already become Iron Man and joined the Avengers. Both can't be right. <<<

I believe we're leaning toward dismissing the flashback in Crimson Dynamo, at least as presented, as non-canon. It's an example of a retcon that contradicts not only temporal references but character histories/chronologies as well. This is, in my dictionary anyway, a classic example of a "retcon" -- a re-writing of history that makes it impossible for published stories to have occurred the way they did. 

From the description Kevin provides, Hulk: Gray is an example of what I would call a "continuity implant" -- a story that fills in the blanks between and behind already published scenes. Continuity implants complement rather than conflict with established events. 

My inclination is to accept Hulk: Gray as a canon story that forces a re-shuffling of the order of events in the MU in a way that does not contradict any established in-story references. But I think that we still need to have someone lay out the events of H 1, H2 312-FB, and the flashbacks in H:G in chronological order to make sure that everything does make sense. 



Quote: 
>>>
Would it help anything in the Hulk chronology if we consider Hulk being gray in both H1 and H2, and in the beginning of H3 as he's the "Hulk by night" in those issues, until he becomes the "mind-controlled-by-Rick-Jones-Hulk" in H3. Or would that just complicate things?  
<<<

I'm not sure what we would gain by having Hulk remain gray through H 2, and I'd rather not reinterpret H 2 as involving a big coloring error if it can be avoided.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Apr 2004 10:09 pm    Post subject: Hulk: Gray non-canon?
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

One of our fellow chronologists PM'd me with the following observation, which he permitted me to post: 

"I feel sure that Hulk: Gray cannot be canon because it contradicts H1 in a major way. In H1, Banner is shown screaming when the G-Bomb explodes behind him, then still screaming "hours later" when he awakens in the base infirmary. By contrast, Hulk: Gray posits that, after the bomb blast, Rick and Bruce secretly skedaddle to the office of a regular GP in a nearby town (with no screaming IIRC). This is not something you would expect of Rick or Bruce knowing that there would be hazmat teams scouring the blast area as soon as it was safe. Add to this Banner's comments just before sundown that "they are waiting for me to die" (implying that the Army/Air Force stuck him in the infirmary with the usual military resigned stoicism toward an "expendable"...which I don't think would necessarilybe the attitude of the local GP), and the fact that , when the HULK breaks through the wall, it is shown to be of a building on-base, guarded by uniformed soldiers who waste no time in alerting Ross and quickly bringing him to the scene...not what one would necessarily expect at the local GP's office, even in a town near a proving grounds/militry base." 

As I have neither Hulk: Gray nor H 1, I can't comment on this. Are there indeed glaring differences in storytelling that render Hulk: Gray non-canon, or can any differences be reconciled by such explanations as faulty memory? 

We'll want to be sure the Hulk's story as shown in H 1 (and H2 312-FB) and Hulk: Gray is consistent enough to declare Hulk: Gray as a canon story before we go mucking around with the relative placement of TOS 39-40 and H 1, not to mention the canonicity of the framing sequences in Hulk: Gray set in the "present." 

Can anyone shed more light on this?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Apr 2004 09:16 am    Post subject: Discrepancies.
By Ocean Doot

"As I have neither Hulk: Gray nor H 1, I can't comment on this. Are there indeed glaring differences in storytelling that render Hulk: Gray non-canon, or can any differences be reconciled by such explanations as faulty memory?" 

The differences are pretty glaring. Another fairly blatant one is the fact that Loeb has the grey Hulk talking like the savage Hulk. (i.e., he says "Hulk smash" a lot), whereas in the original Hulk #1, the Hulk was far more intelligent. To compare -- Hulk #1 has the Hulk saying things like, "So ... THIS is what the puny humans fear!" or "I recognize that face, but it is weak ... soft! I hate it!" Hulk: Gray, on the other hand, has the Hulk saying things like, "Betty hurt. Hulk help Betty." "Hulk not thing. Hulk is Hulk." 

So, Loeb is writing a very different incarnation of the Hulk. The only way to reconcile it, to my mind, would be to say that since Bruce is an MPD, both of these personas were shifting back and forth around the time of Hulk #1. 

As for the scene in the clinic, it does strain credulity a bit that Rick and Bruce would go to some local clinic rather than an on-base infirmary, but if you're willing to accept *that*, there are ways to sort of insert the panels of Hulk: Gray in between the panels of Hulk #1, and vice versa. A friend and I came up with a way to do this, actually. 

For example, in Hulk #1, when the Hulk busts out of the clinic and then runs into some soldiers a few panels later, the inference is that those soldiers were positioned right outside of the building. But, really, there's no clear indication of how much time passed between those panels. Theoretically the Hulk could have traversed quite a great distance in the space of those two or three panels (and some of the stuff that we see in Hulk: Gray could be placed between those panels as well). 

So, Hulk: Gray could be made to fit into the canon, but it would require a *lot* of effort -- possibly more than it's worth. 

Jason

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Posted: 04 Apr 2004 10:35 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Okay, I'm sorry, I would've posted this much earlier, but it's been a super busy week for me...but I do have a reprint of Incredible Hulk #1, (can't say I'm lucky enough to own the original). Yes, upon further review, it may prove extremely difficult to merge Hulk: Grey with Hulk #1, but shouldn't we try to overlook the inconsistancies? 

Incredible Hulk #1: 

pg 1: a close up on the Hulk, as Stan Lee does his usual prologue bit, saying, "Half Man, Half Monster, the Mighty Hulk thunders out of the night to take his place among the most amazing characters of all time!!" 

pg. 2-3: Banner is about to set off the Gamma bomb at the military base for the first time. One of his fellow scientists (who goes by the name of Igor) asks Banner to share the secrets of the bombs creation with him, but Banner says only he should know. Banner spots Rick Jones driving out onto the field, and tells Igor to delay the countdown. Igor has his own ideas, and lets the countdown continue. 

pg. 4, panels 1-6: Banner throws Jones into the trench, the bomb goes off, and Banner is bathed in Gamma rays... 

pg. 4, panels 7 - 9: Banner wakes up screaming in the doctor's office at what we are led to believe is the Army base... 

pg. 5-6: Left alone with Rick now, as the doctor goes off to do other things, Banner transforms into the Hulk for the first time, and bursts out the wall, just as an army jeep happens to be driving by...it slams into Hulk, and Hulk walks away unharmed, walking off into the desert... 

pg 7-11: Hulk wanders back to Banner's home on instinct, (apparently Banner's mind is still operating somewhere deep inside the Hulk). The army, (now knowing about the Hulk from the army jeep that ran into him) is searching the area for the Beast. Rick follows the Hulk back home. As the Hulk breaks inside Banner's home, we find Igor searching through Banner's papers, trying to find Banner's formula for the Gamma bomb. The Hulk knows out Igor, and is possibly going to attack Rick, when the sun comes up, and the Hulk reverts to Bruce Banner. 

pg. 12-14: The army bursts in, arrest Igor, charging him with being a commie spy, (gee, what gave it away? Was it the name?!?!) and they ask Dr. Banner if he's seen the Hulk. Banner and Rick Jones get the army to leave upon showing their's no Hulk here. Betty is there as well, to check up on Bruce. This contradicts with Hulk:Grey #6, which says that Betty didn't see Banner again till he returned to base, claiming he got lost in the desert...Banner finally gets Betty to leave, assuring her that he'll be allright. Banner tells Rick after everyone is gone that he's afraid he'll become the Hulk again when night falls. 

pg 15 - 17, panels 1-6: Cut to what's supposed to be that same day, (though maybe we can twist it so that it's several days later?) Igor is sitting in a holding cell, when he decides it's time to relay a message to his Commie masters in Soviet Russia, via a secret communicator embedded in his thumbnail. The message works it's way up the Soviet command structure, before getting to a figure codenamed "The Gargoyle". He's a mutant freak, with a swelled head, (reminscent of the Leader, the Hulk's main villian later on). He decides this creature called the Hulk is worth looking into, so he hops aboard an "experimental man-carrying rocket" and he arrives in the states near the army base by that nightfall. 

pg. 17, panels 7-8 - page 18: Banner is racing out away from the base in a military jeep, with Rick by his side. Banner fears he'll become the beast again tonight, and doesn't want to be around the base when it happens. He transforms at sundown as he drives, causing the jeep to crash. Hulk marches off into the night, this time in the direction towards Gen. Ross and Betty's house...meanwhile, the Gargoyle spots the Hulk and Rick Jones off in the distance... 

pg. 19: Betty is at home with Gen. Ross when she decides to step out for some fresh air. She bumps into the Hulk, and faints, (somewhat reminiscent of the scene in Hulk: Grey #2). Rick Jones tries to tell Hulk to let Betty go...Just then, the Gargoyle arrives on the scene! 

pg. 20-24: Gargoyles, (a scientific genius) shoots the Hulk and Rick Jones with a special gun that makes them obey his orders. Hulk puts Betty Ross on the ground, and him and Rick follow the Gargoyle, who hijacks a truck, and takes it to the coast, (and if this is the American Southwest, than the coast is pretty far away, isn't it?!?!). They reach the coast, meet up with some fellow commies, who get him abourd a ship, and the Gargoyles takes the Hulk and Rick Jones by plane back to Russia. By the time they get to Russia though, and land the jet, the Gargoyle is stunned to find the Hulk is gone, and Bruce Banner is in his place...Gargoyle figures out that the Hulk and Bruce Banner are the same, and covets how Banner is able to go from man to monster...Banner feels sympathy for the Gargoyle, and they work together, till they come up with a cure for the Gargoyle's own radiation condition. The Gargoyle reverts to being a simple man, not a freak genuis. He's thankful to Banner for showing him the error of his ways, and sends Banner and Jones blasting off on a rocket back to America. Meanwhile, the person who was the Gargoyle sets off a bomb, destroying the army base and killing himself, but taking a bunch of commies with him...as Rick and Banner zip through the air, Banner comments, "It's the end of the Gargoyle! And perhaps...the beginning of the end of the Red Tyranny, too!" 

And that's how the story ends....so yes, they're hard to merge...but Hulk #1 is hard to manage on it's own...Banner becomes the Hulk at night here, and this first issue chronicles what's supposed to be his first two transformations into the Hulk...yet we also have to fit a trip to Russia in there, and man, what a mess.... 

And yes, the Hulk depicted is a somewhat more intelligent Hulk than the Classic, Stupid Hulk...this is why Peter David later came up with the concept of the Joe Fixit...he figured this was a seperate personality...but on the other hand, the Hulk is written the exact same ways in the next few issues, and in his appearances in other titles as well! And this is when he's GREEN! (for instance, notice on the cover of FF#12, Green Hulk is acting intelligent and stealthy. He's thinking, "Another second, and I'll destroy them all!" The FF is who he's referring to...)Eventually, within 3 to 4 years after Hulk #1 though, something happens, and the Hulk gets a subtle shift in personalities...he becomes Classic, Stupid Hulk. Can someone perhaps point out the exact issue in which this happened? Cause it's a mystery to me... 

Hulk: Grey never shows what causes Banner's transformation in that miniseries...but in the original first couple of issues of Hulk, it was nightfall that did it...and at some point after that, it became anger...it's my opinion that we can make the transformations in Hulk: Grey suit either way...in Hulk: Grey, we only see the Hulk at night... 

I don't know if Hulk: Grey and Hulk #1 can be resolved or not, but Hulk #1 doesn't help by being so....corny....
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 04 Apr 2004 11:29 pm    
By John Simons

Kevin W. wrote: 


And yes, the Hulk depicted is a somewhat more intelligent Hulk than the Classic, Stupid Hulk...this is why Peter David later came up with the concept of the Joe Fixit...he figured this was a seperate personality...but on the other hand, the Hulk is written the exact same ways in the next few issues, and in his appearances in other titles as well! And this is when he's GREEN! (for instance, notice on the cover of FF#12, Green Hulk is acting intelligent and stealthy. He's thinking, "Another second, and I'll destroy them all!" The FF is who he's referring to...)Eventually, within 3 to 4 years after Hulk #1 though, something happens, and the Hulk gets a subtle shift in personalities...he becomes Classic, Stupid Hulk. Can someone perhaps point out the exact issue in which this happened? Cause it's a mystery to me... 
 


I hope I "quoted" correctly... I'm still learning how to use this board... 

The Hulk's conversion from the sly, "Mr. Fixit" cunning personality to dumb "Hulk smash" personality unfolded over the course of a 3 issues, TTA 64-66, which are part of one continuous story about the Leader and his humanoids. 

Here's Hulk dialogue and thought balloons from TTA 64: 
"There is no Banner! There's only the Hulk!" 
"It's Banner's fault! He brought me here! But where is he?" 
"Hah! I'm being attacked! At last I have something to smash!" 
"No one can beat the Hulk!" 
"They're not alive! They're just some kind of fighting machines!" 
"I'll finish them all at once by smashing into something--" 
"Go down!! Fall! Nothing stands up to the Hulk! You can't fight me! No one can fight me!!" 
"Why won't they fall?? Why can't I smash them?? Why? Why??" 

Now, from TTA 65: 
"Powerful gun...aimed at me! Need shield!! I'll use the floor! ARGHHH!! Just in time!" 
"Nothing'll stop the Hulk!" 
"I'll get 'em for this!" 
"Beam goes through walls... through everything! But it won't hit me! I'll show 'em...!" 
"Run, run! Everyone runs from me!" 
"Shoulder hurt...!!" 
"Go 'way...!" 
"No more talk! Don't need nothing! I'm the Hulk!" 

Finally, TTA 66. Keep in mind this is a continuous story: 
"You go! Hulk walks alone!" 
"Dead! Saved my life! Died for Hulk!" 
"Was friend! Died for Hulk!" 
"They killed Hulk's friend! They killed Hulk's friend!" 
"Now it is Hulk's turn!" 
"No one escapes Hulk!" 
"Hulk will find! Hulk will destroy!!" 
"None can hide from Hulk!" 
"Arms getting tired! No! Not now!" 
"Can't stop now! Can't let him escape--!" 
"Now the Hulk strikes back!" 
"Puny insects! They come to kill Hulk!" 
"None can kill Hulk!" 

In just 3 issues his speech goes from rough to monosyllabic to childlike with no real explanation. I suppose using Peter David's later MPD explanation we can surmise that Hulk became so frustrated by his failure to harm the pack of humanoids he is fighting at the ending of 64 and beginning of 65, that his brain turns more savage to compensate.

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Posted: 06 Apr 2004 12:05 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Ah, thanks for the explanation, John Simons! 

Well, someone in this thread said Hulk: Grey and the early Hulk issues were incompatible because in Hulk: Grey, it was Stupid Hulk with Grey Skin...but we've seen examples in those early issues of Green Hulk with Joe Fixit's personality...basically, this was all up in the air at this point in Marvel history, (I guess Banner's MPD was still formatting itself)...so I don't think that's a reason to disqualify the Hulk: Grey miniseries... 

Now if only we could merge the two stories....
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 07 Apr 2004 08:39 am    Post subject: Hulk Fixit to Hulk Savage
By Ocean Doot

"The Hulk's conversion from the sly, "Mr. Fixit" cunning personality to dumb "Hulk smash" personality unfolded over the course of a 3 issues, TTA 64-66, which are part of one continuous story about the Leader and his humanoids." 

Note that the savage persona then persists through to issue 69. Then, in issue 70, a bullet lodged in the Hulk's brain causes him to once again have Banner's intellect. Over the course of issues 70-79. we once again see a devolution of intellegence level, with the Hulk starting to act more like Fixit at first, then eventually settling back into his childlike speech patterns at TTA 79. Which is how he would stay all the way through TTA becoming The Incredible Hulk at issue 102, and then remaining childlike until issue 271. 

"Now if only we could merge the two stories...." 

There is a way to do it. I've got it written down somewhere. When I find it, I'll post it. 

Jason

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Posted: 24 May 2004 11:17 pm    
By Starman

Maybe this link could be of any help? It seems to be an attempt to make a full list of the many incarnations that Bruce Banner has turned into. I don't agree with it completely, but it's fairly accurate. 

Leader's Lair - Gamma People - Incarnations of the Incredible Hulk 
http://www.leaderslair.com/gammapeople/incarnations/incarnations.html
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

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Posted: 13 Jul 2004 09:05 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

I just picked up Hulk: Gray #1 in a quarter bin. It made me think of this thread and the fact that we never did get around to trying to integrate and reconcile, on a page-by-page, panel-by-panel basis, Hulk: Gray and early issues of Hulk, vol. 1. If this is possible, then we face the notion that Hulk: Gray is canonical, and if that's the case, we need to place early Iron Man stories before the debut of Hulk. Having only issue #1 of Hulk: Gray and no issues of Hulk, vol. 1, I'm at a disadvantage. Anyone care to give this a shot?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 13 Jul 2004 10:25 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Well, I already detailed a breakdown of the original first issue of Hulk in this very thread, and I was thinking the general idea for this miniseries was that it was supposed to go between issues 1 and 2 of the Hulk, (before he turned green). But I don't have issue 2, so I can't say much more than I already have at this point. Time to go out and buy Essential Hulk vol. 1! (yeah, when I can afford it...  ) 

Of course, I don't know how well in the end this miniseries and the original Hulk are going to integrate...but maybe we can write off the flashbacks in this miniseries as nothing more than faulty memory on Banner's part? (I'm referring to the stuff that doesn't line up so neatly with previously detailed Hulk issues).
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 14 Jul 2004 06:07 am    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Quote: 
>>>
Well, I already detailed a breakdown of the original first issue of Hulk in this very thread,  
<<<

Yes, I did see that, and upon looking at Hulk: Gray #1 I saw opportunities to integrate the two issues, but it would require even further breakdown of Hulk, vol. 1 #1 to do it -- for instance, how the scene in the doctor's office would shift between panels of the two issues. And I'm betting the doctor looks different in Hulk: Gray #1 than in Hulk vol. 1 #1. Plus, I'm leaning toward two skirmishes with soldiers, with the first occurring in H 1 and the second in H:G 1. 


Quote: 
>>>
maybe we can write off the flashbacks in this miniseries as nothing more than faulty memory on Banner's part? (I'm referring to the stuff that doesn't line up so neatly with previously detailed Hulk issues). 
<<<

I think you're suggesting the declaration of certain flashback memory scenes as canonical and others as non-canonical. Is there a precedent for that? I have no particular problems with declaring the "present" scene -- Banner talking to Samson -- as canonical. As pointed out earlier, placement of that ultimately may rest on calendar placement of H2 319, which is probably a while in coming. I suppose we could assign a tentative spot for the non-flashback scenes of Hulk: Gray.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Jul 2004 05:49 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Paul Bourcier wrote: 


Yes, I did see that, and upon looking at Hulk: Gray #1 I saw opportunities to integrate the two issues, but it would require even further breakdown of Hulk, vol. 1 #1 to do it -- for instance, how the scene in the doctor's office would shift between panels of the two issues. And I'm betting the doctor looks different in Hulk: Gray #1 than in Hulk vol. 1 #1. Plus, I'm leaning toward two skirmishes with soldiers, with the first occurring in H 1 and the second in H:G 1. 

 


Good Lord, man!!! Now that's dedication!  I personally don't see how that would work, but maybe someone who actually owns all of the early Hulk issues could break it down better... 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 


I think you're suggesting the declaration of certain flashback memory scenes as canonical and others as non-canonical. Is there a precedent for that? I have no particular problems with declaring the "present" scene -- Banner talking to Samson -- as canonical. As pointed out earlier, placement of that ultimately may rest on calendar placement of H2 319, which is probably a while in coming. I suppose we could assign a tentative spot for the non-flashback scenes of Hulk: Gray. 


I coulda swore we've had a precedent for this sort of thing before now... 

Not that I can think of one off the top of my head. But yes, a tentative spot would be fine by me, for now...
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 14 Jul 2004 06:29 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
I coulda swore we've had a precedent for this sort of thing before now... 

Not that I can think of one off the top of my head. But yes, a tentative spot would be fine by me, for now... 
<<<

You may be thinking of the statements that I've made. I don't want to pick out certain scenes of a story and say that one is canon and the other isn't. 

Flashbacks, though, provide us with more flexibility. Since they are usually told from a character's perspective, we can chalk up discrepancies to faulty memory, or a lie. 

From that standpoint, it is possible for the framing sequence of a story to be canon, while the flashback might not be. Offhand, I can't think of a situation where the reverse would be true, though. 


watching: smallville

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Posted: 15 Jul 2004 08:03 am    
By Paul O'Brien [DIRECTOR]

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
From that standpoint, it is possible for the framing sequence of a story to be canon, while the flashback might not be. Offhand, I can't think of a situation where the reverse would be true, though. 
<<<

The closest situation, I think, would be a character from a possible future recounting events that happened in the past. (For example, WOLVERINE: THE END generally won't make it into the MCP, but the flashbacks to Wolverine's childhood should presumably take their place interweaving with ORIGIN.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 15 Jul 2004 12:07 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Ah, yes. Good point. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 11:20 pm    
By shandrakor

Gray 1 (6-7): Banner hit by gamma bomb. - Concurrent with H 1 (4p4-4p6). No contradiction. 

Gray 1 (8-9): Gen. Ross breaking the news to Betty. - Between H 1 (4p6) and (4p7). Only problem I see is that in H 4 (2p2), Betty claims that the day of the Gamma Bomb test was the first time she was introduced to Banner. I'm pretty sure that's changed in other flashbacks already though. 

Gray 1 (10p1-10p3): Doc checks up Banner, says he should have died. - Concurrent with H 1 (4p7-4p9). Different dialogue, doctor is now black. H 1 doesn't *explicitly* state that it's an army hospital, so it's a stretch, but survivable. 

Gray 1 (10p4-11p2): Banner freaks out at Rick. Immediately prior to, then concurrent with, H 1 (5p1). Makes for a different tone from Banner, but nothing horrible. 

Gray 1 (11p3-13): Banner changes to Hulk. Concurrent with H 1 (5p3-5p6). Moving to a hospital offbase requires removing at least the geiger counter portion of the transformation sequence. 

Gray 1 (14-20): Hulk breaks out of hospital, encounters an army jeep, smashes it up. Concurrent with H 1 (5p7-6). Here's where we start running into real problems. Hulk uses his famous long jump right in front of Rick, who will be surprised to see it for the first time in H 3 (11p2). Also, he's using Savage Hulk dialogue, when in H 1, he's using Gray Hulk dialogue. It's not a matter of his brain bouncing back and forth, these are the exact same scenes with different intelligence-level dialogue. Justifiable possibly that Banner doesn't really remember how smart he was at the time, it's been years and years ago. 

Gray 1 (21-22): Ross recieves a report about Hulk, tells Betty to lock the door. Hulk is seen outside the door. New material between H 1 (6) and (7). Nothing particularly problematic. 

Gray 2 (1-12): Hulk visits Betty, is attacked by soldiers, leaves. Ross has a touching moment with Betty. New material between H 1 (6) and (7). Good scene, no problems with it other than the Savage Hulk dialogue. Works well to explain why the army was out in force hunting him by H 1 (7). 

Gray 2 (13p1): "The Next Day". No, No, No, No. No! We've now disregarded everything from page 7-12 of H 1 and *skims ahead* yep, there goes the rest of H 1 with it. Sure, the Gargoyle story could be cut free from continuity without problem, but it just cut out *IGOR*. Without Igor, there's no reason for the bomb to have gone off, and no reason for *HULK*. Ugh. No two ways about it, this scene cannot possibly fit without some editing. *pulls out his shoehorn* 

Gray 2 (13p1-22, edited): We crop out the idea that this is the next day. Any dialogue supporting that goes too. This is now immediately following H 1. Rick and Banner have just been rocketed back to the US by Gargoyle and landed in the general area of the Desert Base. Rick says they need a place to keep him locked up at night, Banner shows him the cave prison, shown here to be an empty vault intended for nuclear waste. It involves Rick already knowing about the prison before the start of H 2. That's fiddly, but not disgustingly so. It also makes a lot more sense than Rick and Banner having built it together in just a couple weeks. Also, it gives me something better to call it than the "cave prison" 

Gray 3: Ross spends some time interrogating Rick, and he's giving up nothing. Hulk's not being locked up, which is good, cause he needs to be free at the start of H 2. The Rick interrogation makes it a little wierd that he'd come back to the base willingly in H 2, but makes more sense that Ross would try a different tactic with him to bring in Hulk before he goes back to arresting him in H 3. The Iron Man mess I'm calling someone else's problem. 

Gray 4: Issue long fight between Iron Man and Hulk. Sampson points out how nobody's ever heard of this fight and gives us an out if we want to declare that Banner is lying about any or all of this entire mini. No other Hulk-related holes other than the ever-present Savage Hulk dialogue. However, we're into the several week gap between H 1 and H 2, so if we want to crack out the brand-new MPS hasn't quite settled claim, it might work here. Not well, but it'd survive as well as the rest of this spit and bailing wire. 

Gray 5: More of the same, with another out from Sampson: "Bruce...is this what happened, or is it how you remembered what happened?" Bruce: "I can't answer that." 

Gray 6: Wraps us back to enough of a status quo to allow passage into H 2 without any more fiddling necessary. There's the question of how he got out of the Vault again, but hell, how'd he get out between Gray 2 and Gray 3? 

So, that's what I've got. Fiddly, but acceptable as memory-tainted generally cannon events if you'd like. 

~J. Darien Riffe

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 07:23 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

:: long, slow clapping :: 

Oh, I *like* your style, shandrakor. 

Keep up the good work. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 07:23 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Wow. He's good. He's reaaaaal good. 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 26 Oct 2004 08:13 pm    
By Paul Bourcier [DIRECTOR]

Hey, shandrakor! First time out of the gate and you're getting kudos from the Board of Directors. Keep those analyses coming! 
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 125

Posted: 26 Oct 2004 01:37 pm    Post subject: What If v2 #9
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

What If v2 #9  What if the X-Men died on their first mission? 

In this analysis, I'll be building on the changes and conclusions I came to in my recent "Giant-Size X-Men #1" thread. In the individual chronologies below, those changes have been included unstarred, to better emphasize the NEW additions I'm making to that time period. 


This story diverges from GSX #1 p.34, when the X-Men fail to get off of Krakoa before it is hurled into space. 

The Watcher appears in this issue (presumably after WI2 #8 and before WI2 #10, although possibly not  see notes). 


Pre-existing scenes: 

p.1  generic shot of the X-Men circa GSX #1. 
p.6 panel 4 (FB) ~ CX #1 p.3 panel 4, with truncated dialogue. 
p.7 panel 2 (FB) ~ GSX #2 p.2 panel 3, with no thought balloons. 
p.7 panel 4 (FB)  generic shot of Sunfire and Wolverine circa GSX #1. 
p.7 panel 5 (FB) ~ GSX #1 p.8 panel 1. 
p.8 panel 1 (FB)  a re-posed version of the fight scene from GSX #1 p.31 panel 1. Just as with the re-posed fight scene in CX #1, Im not bothering to consider it as a new scene, since the narration in GSX #1 tells us that the panel is meant to sum up the entire fight sequence. 


NEW scenes: 

p.6 panel 3 (FB)  this image is based on GSX #1 p.27 panel 5 (with Colossus and Storm cropped out), which showed Cyclops finding the other X-Men held prisoner by Krakoa  but from the narrations context, this is Cyclops being *released* by Krakoa  a never-before-shown sequence occurring between his being felled in CX #1-FB p.2 panel 5 and stumbling out of the chamber in GSX #1-FB p.29 panel 6. Is it a recycled image in the wrong spot? Is it a new scene? 

p.6 panel 5 (FB)  this image is based on CX #1 p.3 panel 5, which showed Prof. X removing the Cerebro helmet after locating the new X-Men candidates  but from story context, this is Prof. X *putting on* the helmet and *about to* locate them. In CX #1, theres a time gap between p.3 panels 4-5  a narration caption says later. But in WI2 #9, theres no time gap  in fact, Prof. X is still speaking his lines from CX #1 p.3 panel 4 as he puts on the helmet. Is it a recycled image in the wrong spot? Is it a new scene? I say its a new scene, because of 

p.7 panel 1 (FB)  Prof. X uses Cerebro to search for the new X-Men. This IS a new scene  and Im going to lump it together with p.6 panel 5, and call them both a single new scene. (I take panel 1, by the way, to be Prof. Xs floating head, and panels 2-7 to be the panels surrounding it.) 

By the way, in GSX #1, Krakoa claims that he subconsciously commanded Prof. X to gather new X-Men to combat him (rather than, for example, calling the Avengers), so he could feed on more mutants. In that case, Krakoa should get a BTS for the scene where Professor X first decides to search out the new team  and we see that scene for the very first time here. 

p.7 panel 3 (FB)  Nightcrawler teleports across several roofs while avoiding the mob. This is a new scene, occurring between GSX #1 p.2 panels 6-7. 

p.7 panel 6 (FB)  Colossus punches the tractor that would have crushed Illyana. This scene is covered in XCAL #107-FB p.8 panel 3  however, WI2 #9 was published years earlier, and is technically the first time we see this scene. It, then, should supersede and bump the XCAL FB  except that the XCAL FB adds some new information: Colossus' new line "Nyet!" 

Given that both scenes occur at the very same instant, I can't really place them one after the other  and I have to include them both, since the WI2 #9-FB came first but the XCAL FB contains a new line. I suppose I'll have to go with the old "~" notation in this case: "WI2 #9-FB p.7 panel 6 ~ XCAL #107-FB p.8 panel 3". 

(Interestingly, after all the pains artist Rich Buckler took to faithfully re-draw scenes from GSX #1, this panel has Colossus punching the tractor with the wrong arm. Ah well.) 

p.7 panel 7 (FB)  this scene, drawn faithfully from GSX #1 p.12 panel 4, shows a new detail  John Proudstars brother, James, standing on an overlooking bluff and watching John wrestle the bison. This may not be a new scene for John, but it is for James  and may even merit him a BTS for GSX #1. (Ill probably end up using the ~ notation again to denote that.) 

p.8 panel 2 (FB)  Prof. X thinks Fight, my X-Men! Fight! This new line should occur between GSX #1 p.31 panels 1-2  before Prof. X realizes that the X-Men are fighting Krakoa all wrong, gives them the plan to negate gravity, and begins to mentally attack Krakoa himself. 


Earth-616 temporal references: 

Green grass and trees a month after GSX #1. 

The story begins a month (also not long) after the events of GSX #1, and weeks before Count Nefarias attack on Valhalla Base (seen in the MU in UX #94-95). Nefarias initial speech is basically identical in both stories, so presumably his attack occurs at the same time in both universes  and that tells us theres a gap of one month plus weeks between GSX #1 and UX #94 (pp.8-on). (Which corresponds roughly to the weeks covered by UX #94 p.7.) 

The Moira/Rahne horse-riding scene in this issue was clearly inspired by the similar scene in CX #2. Moira refers to Rahne, Reverend Craigs ward at the time, as his nieces child here  but that sounds to me like a small-town social cover-story rather than the intended truth. 

The Beast says that hed just joined the Avengers (in A #137) at the time of GSX #1  but left them after the divergence point to care for Prof. X. In our world, when UX #94 occurred, Prof. X called the Avengers and spoke to the Beast, who claimed they were busy  but in this world, when the Beast calls the Avengers from the X-Mansion, he finds them off-planet. Either UX #94 occurs at different times in both worlds  or, more likely, the Beasts absence from the Avengers in this world caused their adventures to take different turns, and they wound up off-planet at the time of UX #94. 

Other events that, in this world, are occurring at the time of UX #94-95: 

- the Vision and the Scarlet Witch are on their honeymoon, in Polynesia. 
- Quicksilver is living with his wife, Crystal, among the Inhumans. 
- Namors off in the Marianas trench someplace. 
- at Cassidy Keep, Black Tom is training Siryn (whos already wearing her version of Banshees costume) in her sonic powers. Siryn is no older that Namorita. 

If these events and details correspond to anything real in the Marvel Universe, we may be able to use the notion that they occur at (roughly) the same time as UX #94-95 to get more accurate calendar placements. 

Also, this issue confirms that Namorita is, by Cerebros definition, a mutant. 


Notes: 

From some of his comments, the Watcher seems to be narrating from a point in the past, not a point near the 1990 publication of this issue. He claims that this story is playing itself out even now in the alternate world  and he claims that the beginning of the story (a month after GSX #1) occurred some weeks ago from his perspective  which would mean that the end of the issue, occurring weeks after the beginning, probably occurs around the same time as hes narrating from. If thats the case, then the Watcher appears here shortly after UX #94 occurred in the MU. 

On the other hand, the rest of the Watchers comments indicate hes looking back on this from farther in the future  at the end of the issue he mentions X-Factor, the New Mutants, and Excalibur, for one thing. Also, he claims that the original X-Men were *once* enslaved by Krakoa, and mentions that the new X-Men went on to be even more formidable [and] fearless than the original team  which hadnt happened by the time of UX #94. However, we know from other WI2 analyses that the Watcher can view the future through his alternate-dimension portal, so he could conceivably know about the X-Mens reputation and spin-off teams before they occur. 

Personally, I would tend to place the Watchers appearance here in its publication order  between WI2 #8-10, and around other comics published in 1990. For one thing, even though the Watcher can look into the futures of the alternate timelines he views through his portal, we have no evidence that he can view the future of the MU. And even if he can, he probably views a lot of alternates  and has no way of knowing which futures will actually *occur*. If hes making grand pronouncements about the X-Mens reputation and spin-offs, theyve probably already occurred from his perspective. (His comment that the X-Men were once enslaved is telling to me, as well.) 

His comment about the story of the X-Mens death even now playing itself out in the alternate world could then be taken to mean that, in that reality, the replacement X-Men team drafted in this story continues to function even to the present day. Im not sure what to make of his comment that the story began only weeks ago, but to my mind the evidence that hes narrating from comics circa 1990 is stronger than the evidence that hes narrating from just after UX #94. 


More notes: 

When the Beast informs Moira that Prof. X is a mutant, and the founder of the X-Men, she seems not to know  despite loads of retcons in the MU that show that he talked the idea of forming the X-Men over with her several times. Obviously, this discrepancy occurs because this comic was written before those retcons  but is it evidence that this timeline did NOT diverge at GSX #1 p.34  but instead diverged several years earlier, at a point when Prof. X did *not* reveal his powers to Moira? 

I say, no. In Moiras first MU appearance in UX #96, Prof. X is similarly tight-lipped about his past with Moira  and when Moira is speaking to her housekeeper earlier in this issue, shes deliberately evasive on the subject of Prof. X (who, in the real MU, she saw as recently as X:HY #10). I suspect that shes being similarly evasive with the Beast  she could be obeying the professors wishes stated in X:HY #10, that the X-Men not know the full details of her involvement with him. 

There are certain other dialogue errors in this issue  Thunderbird II refers to himself as James Proudfoot and Proudstar, alternately, and the Beast confuses himself with Cyclops at one point  that, combined with the Watchers conflicting temporal references, give me the overall impression of a sloppily edited issue. Most of writer Roy Thomas references to other stories are right on, but there are holes every so often in the issue. So Im not going to take Moiras professed ignorance of the X-Men as a canon-breaker or evidence that the dimension in this book splits off earlier than suggested  Im just going to go with the flimsy excuse I invented.  


Finally, this issue ends with two one-page joke sequences  What if Black Bolt talked in his sleep? (he destroys Attilan), and What if the Things body continued mutating? (he becomes a large orange rock). Of the two, only the Thing page  a series of shots of all of his various looks  could conceivably have canon material, and all the shots of the different forms hes had in the MU are sufficiently generic that theres no chance they contain new material. The Watcher does not appear in either sequence. 


CHRONOLOGY ADDITIONS: 

ANGEL 
 
M/TU #23 
GSX #1-FB p.16 panel 1-p.17 panel 6 
*WI2 #9-FB p.6 panel 3 
GSX #1-FB-BTS p.29 panel 6 
GSX #1 p.27 panel 5-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
UX #94 
 


COLOSSUS II 
 
PXX #4-FB 
{GSX #1} p.9 panel 7-p.10 panel 4 
XCAL #107-FB p.8 panel 2 
GSX #1 p.10 panels 5-7 
*WI2 #9-FB p.7 panel 6 ~ XCAL #107-FB p.8 panel 3 
GSX #1 p.11 panels 1-2 
XCAL #107-FB p.8 panel 4 
GSX #1 p.11 panel 3-p.12 panel 1 
XCAL #107-FB p.8 panel 5 
GSX #1 p.14 panel 1-p.15 panel 2 
CX #1 p.17 panel 1 
GSX #1-BTS p.15 panels 3-4 
CX #1-BTS p.17 panel 2 
GSX #1 p.15 panel 5-p.20 panel 2 
X:L #2-FB p.1 panel 1-p.2 panel 5 
GSX #1 p.20 panel 3-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
UX #94 
 


CYCLOPS II 
 
M/TU #23 
GSX #1-FB p.16 panel 1-p.17 panel 6 
CX #1-FB p.2 panel 5 
*WI2 #9-FB p.6 panel 3 
GSX #1-FB p.29 panel 6 
GSX #1-FB p.18 panels 1-8 
CX #1-BTS p.2 panels 1-2 
GSX #1-FB p.18 panel 9-p.19 panel 4 
CX #1 p.3 panel 4-p.17 panel 1 
GSX #1 p.15 panels 3-4 
CX #1 p.17 panel 2 
GSX #1 p.15 panel 5-p.20 panel 2 
X:L #2-FB p.1 panel 1-p.2 panel 5 
GSX #1 p.20 panel 3-p.28 panel 1 
X:WA-FB p.15 
GSX #1 p.28 panel 2-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
UX #94 
 


HAVOK 
 
CA #175 
GSX #1-FB p.16 panel 1-p.17 panel 3 
CX #1-FB p.2 panel 3 
GSX #1-FB p.17 panels 5-6 
*WI2 #9-FB p.6 panel 3 
GSX #1-FB-BTS p.29 panel 6 
GSX #1 p.20 panel 3-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
UX #94 
 


ICEMAN 
 
M/TU #23 
GSX #1-FB p.16 panel 1-p.17 panel 3 
CX #1-FB p.2 panel 3 
GSX #1-FB p.17 panels 5-6 
*WI2 #9-FB p.6 panel 3 
GSX #1-FB p.29 panel 6 
GSX #1 p.27 panel 5-p.28 panel 1 
X:WA-FB p.15 
GSX #1 p.28 panel 2-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
UX #94 
 


KRAKOA 

{GSX #1-FB} p.29 panels 2-4 
GSX #1-FB p.16 panel 1-p.17 panel 4 
CX #1-FB p.2 panel 3 
GSX #1-FB p.17 panels 5-6 
CX #1-FB p.2 panel 5 
*WI2 #9-FB p.6 panel 3 
GSX #1-FB p.29 panel 6 
*WI2 #9-FB p.6 panel 5-p.7 panel 1 
GSX #1 p.21 panel 1-p.28 panel 1 
X:WA-FB p.15 
GSX #1 p.28 panel 2-p.36 panel 7 
Q #14-BTS 
Q #15 


MARVEL GIRL 
 
M/TU #23 
GSX #1-FB p.16 panel 1-p.17 panel 3 
CX #1-FB p.2 panel 3 
GSX #1-FB p.17 panels 5-6 
*WI2 #9-FB p.6 panel 3 
GSX #1-FB p.29 panel 26 
GSX #1 p.27 panel 5-p.28 panel 1 
X:WA-FB p.15 
GSX #1 p.28 panel 2-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
X:WA-BTS p.15 
CX #1 pp.31-32 
UX #94 
 


NIGHTCRAWLER 
 
UX@ 4-FB 
*{GSX #1} p.2 panels 1-6 (adding the WI2 entry here splits the existing GSX entry, p.2 panel 1-p.3 panel 2, into two) 
*WI2 #9-FB p.7 panel 3 
*GSX #1 p.2 panel 7-p.3 panel 2 
XCAL #107-FB p.11 panel 2 
GSX #1 p.3 panel 3-p.15 panel 2 
CX #1 p.17 panel 1 
GSX #1-BTS p.15 panels 3-4 
CX #1-BTS p.17 panel 2 
GSX #1 p.15 panel 5-p.20 panel 2 
X:L #2-FB p.1 panel 1-p.2 panel 5 
GSX #1 p.20 panel 3-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
UX #94 
 


POLARIS 
 
CA #175 
GSX #1-FB p.16 panel 1-p.17 panel 6 
*WI2 #9-FB p.6 panel 3 
GSX #1-FB-BTS p.29 panel 6 
GSX #1 p.20 panel 3-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-30 
UX #94 
 


PROFESSOR X 
 
M/TU #23-BTS 
GSX #1-FB p.16 panel 1-p.17 panel 4 
DEF #15 
DEF #16 
X #2-FB p.16 panel 1 
GSX #1-FB p.18 panel 8 
CX #1 p.2 panels 1-2 
GSX #1-FB p.18 panel 9-p.19 panel 4 
*CX #1 p.3 panel 4 (adding the WI2 entry here splits the existing CX entry, p.3 panel 4-p.4 panel 5, into two) 
*WI2 #9-FB p.6 panel 5-p.7 panel 1 
*CX #1 p.3 panel 5-p.4 panel 5 
GSX #1 p.4 panel 1-p.12 panel 1 
XCAL #107-FB p.8 panel 5 
GSX #1 p.12 panel 2-p.15 panel 2 
CX #1 p.17 panel 1 
GSX #1 p.15 panels 3-4 
CX #1 p.17 panel 2 
GSX #1-BTS p.15 panel 5-p.20 panel 2 
X:L #2-FB p.1 panel 1-p.2 panel 5 
*GSX #1 p.29 panel 1-p.31 panel 1 (adding the WI2 entry here splits the existing GSX entry, p.29 panel 1-p.36 panel 7, into two) 
*WI2 #9-FB p.8 panel 2 
*GSX #1 p.31 panel 2-p.36 panel 7 
CX #1 pp.19-32 
UX #94 
 


THUNDERBIRD II 
 
XFOR #-1 
*GSX #1-BTS p.12 panel 4 ~ WI2 #9-FB p.7 panel 7 
CX #3/2 
 


-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Oct 2004 06:58 pm    Post subject: Check out Quasar#6
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/earthqualostc.htm 

Quasar's going through the Watcher's portal to visit What If Worlds sprung from the events of Quasar#6 (January 1990). In that issue, Quasar chased the Living Laser to the moon. The Laser slipped into the Watcher's home, and saw the portal through which the Watcher observes alternate Earths. In this case, Uatu observed E105709-a world where the new X-Men died on their first mission, as seen in What If II#9 (January 1990). The Living Laser flew into the portal at some point after page 24 of that story. 

(This indicates, by the way, that the Watcher does not observe alternate Earths in any particular order, since the above world diverged from Earth-616 in Giant Size X-Men#1, which came out in 1975. This is important, since chronologizing his What If appearances has been a pet project many have thought of pursuing over the years.)

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Oct 2004 07:26 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Okay -- granted, this answers my question about the time period the Watcher was viewing from. Answers it really well, in fact. But, dude, you posted THE EXACT SAME TEXT IN ANOTHER THREAD SIX DAYS AGO. 

Do you really need to regurgitate the same exact same material twice in one week? Why do you cut-and-paste answers at all? Can't you just type "the Watcher was observing this earth in Quasar #6" in your own words? 

Ugh. Anyway -- after checking out Quasar #6, I guess I've got some updates for the Watcher and Living Laser's chronologies to write. Both issues came out in January 1990 and I think I spy a sly crossover. 

I'm tempted to just delete my whole long debate about exactly when the Watcher was watching from, as I feel a little foolish missing the really obvious answer -- but I think I'll leave it in, if at least to lend some context to your reply. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Oct 2004 09:53 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

UPDATE: 

As Enda80 pointed out, the Watcher is busily observing this alternate Earth (named as E105709) in Quasar #6  published the same month as WI2 #9, January 1990. So the question of what time period he's observing from is pretty concretely answered. 

Based on the overlap here, we might also be able to start placing Utau's other WI2 appearances around this period into his chronology. (Worryingly, though, a FB sequence in Q #30 that seems to show Uatu *receiving* his dimensional portal years ago also shows him viewing the events of WI2 #13  so his presence in that issue may have to be placed out of order.) 

Anyway, assuming that the Watcher is recording the narration for WI2 #9 as he's observing it in Q #30, then we can interweave his appearances in Q #30 with those in this issue, like so: 

Q #30 p.12 panel 5  Uatu is observing WI2 #9 p.8 panel 1  a flashback scene that occurs "a month" before the point at which Uatu begins narrating WI2 #9  and, technically, a scene that occurs before the divergence point. 

Q #30 p.15-16  Uatu is observing WI2 #9 p.24 panels 2-3. This occurs *after* two instances of Utau's narration in WI2 #9  pp.1-3 and pp.9-10. Presumably, he's narrating those scenes between pp.12-15 of Q #6, while Quasar is chasing the Living Laser around his home. 

(Uatu also narrates the end of WI2 #9, p.28, which should occur after Q #30 p.16.) 

On the final panel of Q #6 p.15, the Living Laser jumps into the Watcher's portal. In the world shown in WI2 #9, this corresponds to a point in time very shortly after p.24 panel 3  so, I checked the panels that followed closely to see if they sneakily worked in a Living Laser cameo. 

And lo and behold, I think they did. 

In WI2 #9 p.24 panel 5, a strange orange beam of light shoots outward from Nefaria's plane explosion. In panel 6, you can see it arcing away in the sky over James Proudstar's head. Looking at Q #6, I see that when the Living Laser flies, he leaves behind a trail of that exact same color. 

Looks like someone at Marvel tried to pull a fast one on us. Cool, huh? 

So, updated chronologies for the Watcher and Living Laser should be: 

UATU 
 
M/CP #17/3 
Q #6 p.12 (observing prior to the divergence point, prior to the beginning of WI2 #9) 
*WI2 #9 pp.1-10 (observing and narrating the beginning of the issue) 
*Q #6 pp.15-16 (during WI2 #9 p.24  his Q #6 entry needs to be split into two.) 
*WI2 #9 p.28 (observing and narrating the end of the issue) 
DD@ 5/4 
 


LIVING LASER 
 
Q #6 
*WI2 #9-BTS p.24 panels 5-6 (contrail visible) 
Q #30-FB 
 


-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 04:11 am    Post subject: Maybe that was the scene of the Time Keepers coming to compl
By Enda80

"(Worryingly, though, a FB sequence in Q #30 that seems to show Uatu *receiving* his dimensional portal years ago also shows him viewing the events of WI2 #13  so his presence in that issue may have to be placed out of order.)" 

Perhaps that scene was of the Time Keepers coming to tell him about the Living Laser mess he had to ask Quasar to clean up.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 07:21 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Oh, that's a good suggestion! I'll look into that when I get around to analyzing WI2 #13 ... thanks. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 126

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 09:42 pm    Post subject: UX 425-426
By Dhall

UX 425 

Sacred Vows Part One of Two 

Characters: 

Archangel 
Beast 
Cable/ Soldier X 
Cannonball 
Corsair 
Cyclops 
Dane, Mr. 
Dane, Mrs. 
Forge 
Gambit 
Ghazikanian, Annie 
Ghazikanian, Carter 
Husk 
Iceman 
Jubilee 
Juggernaut. 
Domino 
Mam'selle Hepzibah 
Moonstar, Dani 
Multiple Man 
Nightcrawler 
Northstar 
Phoenix IV 
Polaris 
Prof. X 
Quicksilver 
Rogue 
Scarlet Witch 
Shadowcat 
Havok 
Siryn 
Val Cooper 
Wolfsbane 
Wolverine 
Xorn I 



UX 426 

Sacred Vows Part 2 of 2 

Characters: 

Page 2-3: 

Angel (clearly identifiable) 
Annie (clearly identifiable, by hair, proximity to Iceman) 
Carter (clearly identifiable by being by Annie) 
Cyclops (has head thrown back) 
Forge (man with mustache and hands on top of head?) 
Havok (man in front of Iceman, clearly identifiable in later pages) 
Husk (based on being in front row in UX 425, dress) 
Iceman (clearly identifiable, by glasses) 
Jean Grey (clearly identifiable) 
Jubilee (clearly identifiable) 
Juggernaut (clearly identifiable, is inside mansion, and not at the wedding) 
Nightcrawler (clearly identifiable) 
Polaris (clearly identifiable) 
Shadowcat (based on being in front row in UX 425, dress) 
Wolfsbane (based on being in front row in UX 425, dress) 
Xavier (clearly identifiable) 
Other wedding guests (many from UX 425 will receive a bts) 

Plot: Wedding preparations, Juggernaut joins Alex & Nightcrawlers X-Men team, the Bachelorette and Bachelor parties, the stripper, Alexs growing realization of love for Annie and not Lorna, the wedding interrupted, insane Lorna, passed out wedding guests, Havoks new use of his powers to fly, and Juggernaut saving the day. 

Characters: 

Archangel 
UX 423 
*UX 425 
*UX 426 
EXIL 28 
EXIL 29 
EXIL 30 

Beast 
UX 421 
*UX 425 
*UX 426-BTS 
X 134 

Cable/ Soldier X 
C2 106 
C2 107 
(He very likely appears in some issues of Soldier X here) 
*UX 425 
*UX 426-BTS 

Cannonball 
X 130 
X 131 
*UX 425 
*UX 426-BTS 

Cooper, Dr. Valerie 
TB 50 
A3 44 
*UX 425 
*UX 426-BTS 


Corsair 
UX 387 
UX 391 
XU 32/3 
*UX 425 
*UX 426-BTS 

Cyclops 
UX 424 
*UX 425 
*UX 426 
X 134 

**Dane, Mr. 
*UX 425 
*UX 426-BTS 

**Dane, Mrs. 
*UX 422-BTS 
*UX 425 
*UX 426-BTS 

Domino 
X '01 
*UX 425 
*UX 426-BTS 

Forge 
UX 384 
XU 29 
*UX 425 
*UX 426 

Gambit 
XX 19 
XXX 2 
*UX 425 
*UX 426-BTS 

Ghazikanian, Annie 
UX 423 
*UX 425 
*UX 426 
EXIL 28 
EXIL 29 
EXIL 30 

Ghazikanian, Carter 
UX 422 
*UX 425 
*UX 426 
EXIL 28 
EXIL 29 
EXIL 30 

Havok 
UX 424 
*UX 425 
*UX 426 
EXIL 28 
EXIL 29 
EXIL 30 

Husk 
UX 423 
*UX 425 
*UX 426 
EXIL 28 
EXIL 29 
EXIL 30 

Iceman 
UX 424 
*UX 425 
*UX 426 
EXIL 28 
EXIL 29 
EXIL 30 

Jubilee 
UX 406 
UX 423 
*UX 425 
*UX 426 

Juggernaut. 
UX 422 
*UX 425 
*UX 426 
EXIL 28 
EXIL 29 
EXIL 30 

Mam'selle Hepzibah 
GAL 6 
UX 387 
XU 32/3 
*UX 425 
*UX 426-BTS 

Moonstar, Dani 
X 99 
BS:X 4 
X 102 
X '00 
*UX 425 
*UX 426-BTS 

Multiple Man 
X 128 
X 130 
X 131 
*UX 425 
*UX 426-BTS 

Nightcrawler 
UX 424 
*UX 425 
*UX 426 
EXIL 29 
EXIL 30 

Northstar 
UX 422 
*UX 425 
*UX 426-BTS 

Phoenix IV 
UX 423 
UX 424 
*UX 425 
*UX 426 

Polaris 
UX 422 
UX 423 
UX 424 
*UX 425 
*UX 426 

Prof. X 
UX 422 
XX 21 
XX 22 
XX 23 
*UX 425 
*UX 426 

Quicksilver 
*UX 425 
*UX 426-BTS 

Rogue 
XX 19 
XXX 2 
*UX 425 
*UX 426-BTS 


Scarlet Witch 
*UX 425 
*UX 426-BTS 

Shadowcat 
X 110 
XX 01/2 
XX 19 
*UX 425 
*UX 426 

Siryn 
X 128 
X 130 
X 131 
*UX 425 
*UX 426-BTS 

Wolfsbane 
X 108 
UX 389-FB 
*UX 425 
*UX 426 

Wolverine 
UX 423 
UX 424 
*UX 425 
*UX 426-BTS 
EXIL 28 
EXIL 29 
EXIL 30 
WXISLE 1 

Xorn I 
X 125 
X 126 
X 127 
*UX 425 
*UX 426-BTS

			*	*	*

Thread 127

Posted: 28 Oct 2004 07:47 pm    Post subject: UX 427
By Dhall

UX 427 

Characters: 

Archangel 
Husk 
Jubilee 

Mr. Mendoza 
Mrs. Mendoza 
Reyna Mendoza 
Jeremy 

Plot: Archangel, Husk, and Jubilee visit Skins grave in Beverly Glen Cemetery in Los Angeles. Angel flies off to a hospital to use his powers to heal the sick. He demonstrates for a skeptical doctor, who then uses Warrens blood to save a girl. Meanwhile, two gravediggers threaten to exhume Angelo and cremate him, due to the cemetarys anti-mutant policy. Jubilee argues with the manager, Mr, Mendoza, while Husk fights Jeremy, a mutant with Colossus like powers. Its all to no avail, as the manager gets his way. The twist at the end, is that the girl Angel saved, is Mr. Mendozas daughter. 

Note: Everyone forgets Angelos name, and calls him Angelo Torres in this issue. Seriously, a little bit of research please. Ask a fan, or someone who knows. Cmon its not hard. 

Second Note: Can we give Angelos corpse a BTS for this issue, since it is the reason for the story? 


Listings: 

Archangel 
UX 426 
EXIL 28 
EXIL 29 
EXIL 30 
*UX 427 

Husk 
UX 426 
EXIL 28 
EXIL 29 
EXIL 30 
*UX 427 

Jubilee 
UX 423 
UX 425 
UX 426 
*UX 427 


Skin  BTS (deceased) 
GENX 75 
UX 423 
*UX 427-BTS

			*	*	*

Thread 128

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 02:42 pm    Post subject: X-Statix 6-10, W/Doop 1-2. X-Statix 11-12
By Dhall

X-Statix 6 

The Moons of Venus Part 1 

Characters: 
Professor Xavier 
Venus Dee Milo 
Swaine, Doctor 
Lacuna 
Orphan / Mister Sensitive 
The Anarchist 
Dead Girl 
Phat 
Vivisector 
Doop 
Spike Freeman 

Solomon OSullivan 
Sharon Ginsberg 

Morinson, Morry (newsreader) 
Bad Guy 

The news report segment on pages 14-15 is technically a flashback, although it occurs in the correct point in the issue. It contains, Bad Guy and Lacuna. Note that Guy is watching the news, but hes not in the fb. 

X-Statix 7 
The Moons of Venus Part Two 

Characters: 
Bad Guy 
Anarchist 
Venus Dee Milo 
Spike Freeman 
Professor Xavier 
Dead Girl 
Phat 
Vivisector 
Orphan / Mister Sensitive 
Swaine, Doctor 
Doop 

Solomon OSullivan 
Sharon Ginsberg 
Lacuna 


X-Statix 8 
The Moons of Venus Part III 

Characters: 
Bad Guy 
Venus Dee Milo 
Orphan / Mister Sensitive 
Professor Xavier 
Spike Freeman 
Anarchist 
Dead Girl 
Phat 
Vivisector 
Doop 

Solomon OSullivan 
Sharon Ginsberg 

Swaine, Doctor 
Venus family: Mom, Dad, Grandma (and Brothers-BTS) 

X-Statix 9 
X-Statix: The Movie 

Characters: 
Anarchist 
Venus Dee Milo 
Orphan / Mister Sensitive 
Phat 
Vivisector 
Doop 
Dead Girl 
Solomon OSullivan 
Sharon Ginsberg 

Capriati, Lennox (also in film footage fb) 
Withnail, Rimi 
El Guapo / Robbie Rodriguez 
Spike Freeman 
Other actors playing X-Statix members 

Flashback: Page 21 panel 5: Shows the team (minus Doop) going into battle. This takes place right before the beginning of this issue. 

Flashback: Page 9 panel 1: Film footage of Lennox Capriati, and the actor playing Mister Sensative. 

Flashback: Page 13 Panels 1-2: In-fighting in X-Statix (not movie footage, but real footage) Playing for the cameras, Guy punches Phat. In Panel 2: Vivisector holds Phat back, while Anarchist holds back Guy. (This is staged, so that the media will talk about the team.) This flashback can actually occur in the same place as it is located in the issue (a device sometimes used in X-Statix) This would place it between the first visit to the X-Statix movie set, and where X-Statix is watching the Flashback on video. 

Flashback: Page 20 Panel 1: Film footage of El Guapo (predates his app. In this issue.) 



X-Statix 10 
The Diaries of Edie Sawyer 

Characters: 
Venus Dee Milo 
Orphan / Mister Sensitive 
Affleck, Ben  BTS 

In Flashbacks: 
U-Go-Girl / Edie Constance Sawyer 
Cal, Edies boyfriend 
Zeitgeist / Axel Cluney (on tv, within flashback, then in the actual flashback) 
Coach, Doop, Gin Genie, Sluk 
Unnamed members of X-Force (None of these are Plazm, Battering Ram, or Le Nuit) 



Wolverine/Doop 1 
Characters: 
Wolverine 
Pink Lady 
The Collector (not the Avengers villain) 
Doop 
Orphan / Mister Sensitive 
Halloran, Officer 
Spike Freeman 
Professor Xavier 

Wolverine/Doop 2 

Characters: 
Hunter Joe 
Doop 
Wolverine 
Professor Xavier 
Orphan / Mister Sensitive 
Spike Freeman 
Von Hosen, Professor 
Pink Lady 
Venus Dee Milo 
Dead Girl 
Phat 
Vivisector 
Anarchist 



X-Statix 11 

3 in a Bed 

Charcaters: 
El Guapo 
Conseula (El Guapos girlfriend) 
Orphan / Mister Sensitive 
Anarchist 
Spike Freeman 
Vivisector 
Venus Dee Milo 
Dead Girl 
Phat 
Doop 
Wolverine 
Swaine, Doctor 
Clooney, George  BTS 
Smith, Kevin 
Ginsberg, Sharon  in fb 

Flashback: Page 3 Panels 1,3: El Guapo grabs Sharon Ginsberg. Panel 1 is the same as Page 19 of X-Statix 9. Panel 3 is new: El Guapo holds up Sharon. Sharon is still conscious so I would put this between Pages 18 and 19 of X-Statix 9. 

X-Statix 12 
If You think Im Sexy 

Characters: 
Dead Girl 

Orphan / Mister Sensitive 
Anarchist 
Vivisector 
Venus Dee Milo 
Phat 
El Guapo 
Doop 
Spike Freeman 
Saxxon, Savannah 
Gutman, Brad (mortician) 
Gutman, Brenda 
Gutman, Britney 
Stone, Officer 

Listings: 

**Affleck, Ben 
*XSTATIX 10-BTS 

Anarchist 
XSTATIX 5 
*XSTATIX 6 
*XSTATIX 7 
*XSTATIX 8 
*XSTATIX 9-FB 
*XSTATIX 9 
*XSTATIX 9-FB 
*XSTATIX 9 
*WDOOP 2 
*XSTATIX 11 
*XSTATIX 12 
X-STATIX 13 

**Bad Guy 
*XSTATIX 6 
*XSTATIX 6-FB 
*XSTATIX 6 
*XSTATIX 7 
*XSTATIX 8 

**Capriati, Lennox 
*XSTATIX 9-FB 
*XSTATIX 9 

**Clooney, George 
*XSTATIX 11-BTS 

COACH 
*XSTATIX 10-FB 
XFOR 116 
XFOR 120-FB 
XFOR 116 
XFOR 117 
XFOR 118 
XFOR 119 
XFOR 120 

**Collector II 
*WDOOP 1 

Dead Girl 
XSTATIX 5 
*XSTATIX 6 
*XSTATIX 7 
*XSTATIX 8 
*XSTATIX 9-FB 
*XSTATIX 9 
*WDOOP 2 
*XSTATIX 11 
*XSTATIX 12 
X-STATIX 13 


DOOP 
*XSTATIX 10-FB 
XFOR 116-FB 
XFOR 116 
XFOR 117-FB 
XFOR 117 
XFOR 118 
XFOR 119 
XFOR 120 
. 
XSTATIX 5 
*XSTATIX 6 
*XSTATIX 7 
*XSTATIX 8 
*XSTATIX 9 
*WDOOP 1 
*WDOOP 2 
*XSTATIX 11 
*XSTATIX 12 
X-STATIX 13 

**El Guapo / Robbie Rodriguez 
*XSTATIX 9-FB 
*XSTATIX 9 
*XSTATIX 11-FB 
*XSTATIX 9 
*XSTATIX 11 
*XSTATIX 12 

Freeman, Spike 
XSTATIX 5 
*XSTATIX 6 
*XSTATIX 7 
*XSTATIX 8 
*XSTATIX 9 
*WDOOP 1 
*WDOOP 2 
*XSTATIX 11 
*XSTATIX 12 
X-STATIX 13 

GIN GENIE/BECKAH 
*XSTATIX 10-FB 
XFOR 116-FB 
XFOR 116 

Ginsberg, Sharon 
XSTATIX 4 
*XSTATIX 6 
*XSTATIX 7 
*XSTATIX 8 
*XSTATIX 9 
*XSTATIX 11-FB 
*XSTATIX 9 

**Gutman, Brad 
*XSTATIX 12 

**Gutman, Brenda 
*XSTATIX 12 

**Gutman, Britney 
*XSTATIX 12 

**Halloran, Officer 
*WDOOP 1 

**Hunter Joe 
*WDOOP 2 

Lacuna 
XSTATIX 5 
*XSTATIX 6 
*XSTATIX 6-FB 
*XSTATIX 7 
X-STATIX 13 

** Morinson, Morry 
*XSTATIX 6 

Orphan / Mister Sensitive 
XSTATIX 5 
*XSTATIX 6 
*XSTATIX 7 
*XSTATIX 8 
*XSTATIX 9-FB 
*XSTATIX 9 
*XSTATIX 9-FB 
*XSTATIX 9 
*XSTATIX 10 
*WDOOP 2 
*XSTATIX 11 
*XSTATIX 12 
X-STATIX 13 

OSullivan, Soloman 
XSTATIX 4 
*XSTATIX 6 
*XSTATIX 7 
*XSTATIX 8 
*XSTATIX 9 

Phat 
XSTATIX 5 
*XSTATIX 6 
*XSTATIX 7 
*XSTATIX 8 
*XSTATIX 9-FB 
*XSTATIX 9 
*XSTATIX 9-FB 
*XSTATIX 9 
*WDOOP 2 
*XSTATIX 11 
*XSTATIX 12 
X-STATIX 13 

**Pink Lady 
*WDOOP 1 
*WDOOP 2 

Professor X/Xavier, Professor 
UX 413 
UX 414 
*XSTATIX 6 
*XSTATIX 7 
*XSTATIX 8 
UX 416 
UX 417 
.. 
XX 23 
*WDOOP 1 
*WDOOP 2 
*UX 425 
*UX 426 
XSTATIX 13 

**Saxxon, Savannah 
*XSTATIX 12 

SLUK 
*XSTATIX 10-FB 
XFOR 116-FB 

**Smith, Kevin 
*XSTATIX 11 

**Stone, Officer 
*XSTATIX 12 

**Swaine, Doctor 
*XSTATIX 6 
*XSTATIX 7 
*XSTATIX 8 
*XSTATIX 11 

U-GO GIRL/EDIE SAWYER 
*XSTATIX 10-FB 
*XFOR 116-FB 
XFOR 116 
*XSTATIX 1-FB 
*XFOR 116 
XFOR 117-FB 
XFOR 117 
XFOR 118 
XFOR 119 
XFOR 120 

Venus Dee Milo 
XSTATIX 5 
*XSTATIX 6 
*XSTATIX 7 
*XSTATIX 8 
*XSTATIX 9-FB 
*XSTATIX 9 
*XSTATIX 10 
*WDOOP 2 
*XSTATIX 11 
*XSTATIX 12 
X-STATIX 13 

Vivisector 
XSTATIX 5 
*XSTATIX 6 
*XSTATIX 7 
*XSTATIX 8 
*XSTATIX 9-FB 
*XSTATIX 9 
*XSTATIX 9-FB 
*XSTATIX 9 
*WDOOP 2 
*XSTATIX 11 
*XSTATIX 12 
X-STATIX 13 

**Von Hosen, Professor 
*WDOOP 2 

**Withnail, Rimi 
*XSTATIX 9 

Wolverine 
XX 20 
XX 21 
XX 22 
*WDOOP 1 
*WDOOP 2 
*XSTATIX 11 
(Prob: W/Ca 1-4, when analyzed) 
UX 423 
UX 424 
UX 425 
UX 426-BTS 

ZEITGEIST II/AXEL CLUNEY 
XFOR 116-FB 
*XSTATIX 10-FB-FB 
*XSTATIX 10-FB 
XFOR 116 
XFOR 120-FB 
XFOR 116 
XSTATIX 1-FB 
XFOR 116 
XFOR 117-FB 
XFOR 116 
XFOR 117-FB (corpse)

			*	*	*

Thread 129

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 04:50 pm    Post subject: WX2 0.5
By Dhall

Weapon X 0.5 

Characters: 
The Director 
Kane 
Sauron (in fb) 
Mesmero 
Wild Child 
Sabretooth 
Jackson, Brent 

Orphan 
Washout 


Plot: The Director takes stock of the current state of the Weapon X project. There are many flashbacks to previous issues of Wolverine and Deadpool, that show nothing new, but serve as a good set up issue for the series. 

Flashback: At night, Sauron swoops down and drains the life energy from a couple. 

Listings: 

The Director 
DPOOL3 60 
W2 173 
W2 173/2 
W2 174 
*WX2 0.5 


Kane 
W2 143 
WX2:AGENTZERO 
W2 174 
*WX2 0.5 

Sauron 
DPOOL3 60 
DPOOL3 61 
*WX2 0.5-FB 


Mesmero 
DPOOL3 57 
DPOOL3 61 
*WX2 0.5 


Wild Child 
DPOOL3 60 
DPOOL3 61 
*WX2 0.5 

Sabretooth 
DPOOL3 61 
W2 170 
W2 171 
W2 173 
W2 174 
*WX2 0.5 


Jackson, Brent 
DPOOL3 61 
W2 173 
W2 173/2 
W2 174 
*WX2 0.5 


Orphan 
XFOR 129 
*WX2 0.5 
XFOR 129 

Washout 
XFOR 129 
*WX2 0.5

			*	*	*

Thread 130

Posted: 31 Oct 2004 09:20 am    Post subject: The rest of the Weapon X oneshots
By Dhall

Note: For placement of these issues, I relied heavily on Pauls calendar. The sequence of events there seems to make sense, as these issues are supposed to occur at roughly the same time (except for the Kane issue, which has a different phased moon.) 

Weapon X: The Draft  Sauron 

Characters: 
Sauron 
Mesmero 
Kane 
Director 
Jackson, Brent 
Wild Child 

White Queen 
Jack, Austalian mutant 
Ballz, his dog 
Miller, Meredith 

Weapon X: The Draft  Wild Child 

Characters: 
Wild Child 
Aurora 
Director 
Brent Jackson 

Six months ago: (must be before deadpool 57) 
Wild Child 
Sunfire 
Sabretooth 


Three months later: 
Wild Child 
Director 
Aurora 
Mesmero 
Brent Jackson 

Weapon X: The Draft  Marrow 

Characters: 
Director 
Marrow 
Mesmero 
Kane 
Dgard 
Is the fb with her and Gene nation new? It might be. Check this out. 

Weapon X: The Draft  Kane 

Characters: 
Director 
Rapture 
Brent Jackson 
Kane 


Listings: 

Sauron 
UX 356 
WX2:AGENTZERO 
DPOOL3 57 
DPOOL3 60 
DPOOL3 61 
WX2 0.5-FB 
*WX2:SAURON 

Mesmero 
X 0.5 
WX2:AGENTZERO 
DPOOL3 57 
DPOOL3 61 
WX2 0.5 
*WX2:SAURON 
*WX2:MARROW 
*WX2:WILDCHILD 


Weapon X II/ Garrison Kane 
C2 39 
W2 142 
W2 143 
WX2:AGENTZERO 
W2 174 
WX2 0.5 
*WX2:SAURON 
*WX2:MARROW 
*WX2:KANE 

Director 
W2 166-FB 
W2 162-BTS 
W2 166 
WX2:AGENTZERO 
DPOOL3 57 
DPOOL3 58 
DPOOL3 60 
W2 173 
W2 173/2 
W2 174 
WX2 0.5 
*WX2:SAURON 
*WX2:WILDCHILD 
*WX2:SAURON 
*WX2:MARROW 
*WX2:KANE 
*WX2:WILDCHILD 


Jackson, Brent 
W2 166 
WX2:AGENTZERO 
DPOOL3 57 
DPOOL3 58 
DPOOL3 59 
DPOOL3 60 
DPOOL3 61 
W2 173 
W2 173/2 
W2 174 
WX2 0.5 
*WX2:SAURON 
*WX2:WILDCHILD 
*WX2:SAURON 
*WX2:KANE 
*WX2:WILDCHILD 


Wild Child 
XF 142 
AF2 3 
WX2:AGENTZERO 
*WX2:WILDCHILD-FB 
DPOOL3 57 
DPOOL3 60 
DPOOL3 61 
WX2 0.5 
*WX2:SAURON 
*WX2:WILDCHILD 

White Queen 
X 125 
X 126 
*WX2:SAURON 
X 128 
XXX 1 
X 131 
XX 20 

**Jack, (Austalian telepath) Do we ever get a last name or code name, so that we can list him? 
*WX2:SAURON 

**Ballz (Jacks dog) 
*WX2:SAURON 

**Miller, Meredith 
*WX2:SAURON 

D'GARD 
UX '97 
*WX2:SAURON 

Marrow 
UX 379 
X 99 
UX 380 
SM/M-FB 
SM/M 
*WX2:MARROW 

Rapture II 
*WX2:KANE 

Aurora 
W2 142 
W2 143 
UX 379 
*W2 171 
*W2 172 
*W2 173/2 
*WX2:WILDCHILD 

Sunfire 
IFW 4 
MAXSEC 1-FB 
MAXSEC 3 
*WX2:WILDCHILD-FB 
*X 133 


Sabretooth 
W2 160 
W2 162 
W2 164 
W2 165 
W2 166 
WX2:AGENTZERO 
*WX2:WILDCHILD-FB 
DPOOL3 57 
DPOOL3 58 
DPOOL3 59 
DPOOL3 60 
DPOOL3 61 
W2 170 
W2 171 
W2 173 
W2 174 
WX2 0.5

			*	*	*

Thread 171

Posted: 07 Oct 2004 09:03 pm    Post subject: X-Man 70
By Dhall

X-man's listing looks like this: 

XM 61 
XM 62 
XM 67 
XM 68 
XM 69 XM 70 (this should be on two seperate lines) 
XM 63 
XM 64 
XM 65 
XM 66 
MAXSEC 1-FB 
XU 31/3 
XM 70 (this should not be here) 
XM 71 
XM 72 
XM 73

			*	*	*

Thread 132

Posted: 09 Oct 2004 10:41 pm    Post subject: Age of Apocalypse page errata
By SeanCurtin

Bishop's and Charles Xavier's chronologies both list XM 41 rather than X 41. 

Several characters are missing {brackets} around their first published appearances: 

Angel, Apocalypse, Blink, Cyclops, Gambit, Jean Grey, Havok, Iceman, Morph, Quicksilver, Rogue, Sabretooth, Sinister, Storm, Weapon X (all first in X:ALPHA); 
Aurora, the Bedlam Brothers, Northstar (all first in FX 1); 
Brute, Forge, Mastermind, Toad (all first in XM 1); 
Ch'od, Mam'zelle Hepzibah, Raza Longknife (all first in GAM&XT 2); 
Chamber, Colossus, Shadowcat, Skin (all first in GENNXT 1); 
Exodus (first in AMAZX 1); 
Mystique (first in X-CAL 1); 
Nightcrawler, Sunfire (both first in ASTONX 1); 
Illyana Rasputin (first in GENNXT 2). 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 133

Posted: 17 Oct 2004 08:48 pm    Post subject: Missing paragraph tag
By lkseitz

All bugs closed? Well, we can't have that, can we?  

The <p> tag is missing between Tylor Nixon's chronology and Nobilus, resulting in no blank line between them. Also, "NIXON, TYLOR" is not bolded as it should be.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Thread 134

Posted: 25 Oct 2004 05:37 pm    Post subject: Wolverine
By Dhall

I am happy to see some flashbacks being moved earlier, but now they're listed before (and after) the character name.... 


UX 213-FB 
UX 268-FB 
WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT Subscribe! 
O 1 
O 2 
W2 113-FB 
W2 126-FB 
UX 213-FB 
UX 268-FB

			*	*	*

Thread 135

Posted: 25 Oct 2004 08:50 pm    Post subject: Sage
By Dhall

Sage's entire listing is in bold text

			*	*	*

Thread 136

Posted: 26 Oct 2004 07:29 pm    Post subject: Denise and Ellie Waters
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

While searching for the Watcher's listing, I discovered that the listings for Denise and Ellie Waters of SS4 fame are all bold. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 137

Posted: 25 Oct 2004 07:08 pm    Post subject: E-mail Update Alerts?     
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I don't know if this counts as a bug, but I'm subscribed to the "MCP Update E-Mail Alerts" under two separate e-mail addreses, and I don't think I've ever recieved more than one update report. 

Glitch? Or just not sending them out? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Oct 2004 08:53 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

It's a glitch, but not just for you. I've had reports from several people who aren't getting them. I'll try to look into it with this weekend's update. 


watching: csi something or other

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Oct 2004 09:16 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jeph, did you get anything? 


watching: st louis v. boston

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 05:54 am    
By Andy Holcombe

Not Jeph, but I did.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 07:22 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I did. I got two of 'em, one for each e-mail address. 

Success! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 138

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 05:18 am    Post subject: A couple of typos
By jimmyppi

SEEKER III: 
The list is in bold. 

DOC OCTOPUS 
Line breaks between PPTSS 73 and PPTSS 74 (don't show in browser). 

HOBGOBLIN II 
Empty lines in the list (don't show in browser).

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Oct 2004 07:44 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Those are intentional. 


watching: american morning

			*	*	*

Thread 139

Posted: 04 Oct 2004 08:20 am    Post subject: Flashback Watch
By Dhall

I had an idea for a different kind of watch. Sometimes when I'm going through my comic collection and the MCP I'll notice certain flashbacks are not indexed, though the main issue is. I don't always have the time to address these directly, especially when they concern complicated areas of chronology. I was thinking that if we had a flashback watch, it would be easy to jot down the flashback and then anyone who wanted to write it up could do so, and we'd have a record of which fb's aren't indexed. This would be better than the current system of say me writing down such info, for future use, and then not getting around to it for a good long time.... 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Thread 140

Posted: 05 Oct 2004 05:50 am    Post subject: Almost everything you ever wanted to know about Arcturus
By StAkAr Karnak

Hey people, 

I put together a history of the planet Arcturus to give context to biographies of Starhawk and Aleta I've been wanting to write. Take a look if you're interested. 

http://www.geocities.com/glakandar/gotw/main.htm 

- SK
_________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:StAkAr_Karnak

			*	*	*

Thread 141

Posted: 09 Oct 2004 11:02 pm    Post subject: Covering old ground
By AaronRStanley

What is the protocol/ consensus on someone redoing issues? I ask, as i recently acquired the Kitty Pryde, Agent of SHIELD LS, and wanted to analyse it, but everyone is already in there. 
So, would i be wasting my time if i did these books?
_________________
Expand your mind

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 12:35 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

We don't need analyses of books that are already in the MCP. If you find mistakes, that should posted in the Marvel Universe forum. As to whether you'd be wasting your time, only you can make that judgement. 


watching: smallville

			*	*	*

Thread 142

Posted: 05 Oct 2004 04:31 pm    Post subject: I'm new and interested in helping out.
By arthur_phillip_dent

I just stumbled across this project today and its really interesting. 
I have every issue of Generation X (minus a couple of the Annuals). What should I do to help out?
_________________
Eagles may soar but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2004 06:16 pm    
By Ant-Man

Welcome to the boards! 
I recommend reading the FAQs, learning about the 'gap' books, and contributing on the Issue Analysis boards... 
Or, if you're like me, and can't do a decent analysis to save your life, just contribute by getting involved in the discussions on these boards (I tell myself that I'm bound to help somebody with something if I hang around long enough...)
_________________
-Brian Cook-

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2004 07:09 pm    
By arthur_phillip_dent

I'm a real knee-biter. 

Thanks, I'll start posting there as soon as I see something I'm knowledgable about.
_________________
Eagles may soar but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2004 08:36 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Don't worry about that. Jeph's been talking about stuff that he doesn't know anything about since he started here!  

Seriously, welcome aboard. Feel free to chime in when/where you can.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Oct 2004 09:05 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Ooooo. Cat fight! Cat fight! 


watching: larry king

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 08:37 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
Jeph's been talking about stuff that he doesn't know anything about since he started here!  
<<<

It's true ... it's all true! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 143

Posted: 01 Oct 2004 07:41 am    Post subject: Jeph on Vacation!
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Attention, MCP faithful! One-sixth of your moderating team is going on vacation this coming week. 

That's right -- I'm off to the Bahamas for a week, starting tomorrow and back late on Oct. 9th. 

It goes without saying that I won't have Internet access there, so I can't keep up with all our scintillating discussions ... but I'll think fondly of you as I lie out on the beach, staring at clouds above me forming into a new and deadly hurricane... 

(And, as an open letter to those of you who I'm mailing comics to ... you know who you are ... I will *try* to get them in the mail before I go. No promises, but I'll do my bestest.) 

Have a good week, all! Don't discuss the X-Men without me! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Oct 2004 12:25 pm    
By John Simons

The Bahamas? Do they even have comic stores in the Bahamas? What's the point of even going on vacation if you can check out other locales' comic stores?  

Have a great time. I, for one, should have no problem refraining from X-Men talk.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Oct 2004 12:31 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Attention, MCP faithful! One-sixth of your moderating team is going on vacation this coming week. 

That's right -- I'm off to the Bahamas for a week, starting tomorrow and back late on Oct. 9th. 
<<<

Bastard! 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
It goes without saying that I won't have Internet access there, so I can't keep up with all our scintillating discussions ... but I'll think fondly of you as I lie out on the beach, staring at clouds above me forming into a new and deadly hurricane... 
<<<

No internet access, my butt! I was in Nowhere, Alaska for two weeks and could get online! And I took print-outs of Paul's calendar with me to go over in the plane! You just didn't want to talk to us any more!  


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
(And, as an open letter to those of you who I'm mailing comics to ... you know who you are ... I will *try* to get them in the mail before I go. No promises, but I'll do my bestest.) 
<<< 

Gotta love a good Bails-ism!  


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Have a good week, all! Don't discuss the X-Men without me! 
<<<

I gather you're not directing that comment to me specifically? 

Seriously, have a good trip!

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Oct 2004 01:31 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Quote: 
>>>
I'm off to the Bahamas for a week, starting tomorrow and back late on Oct. 9th. 
<<<

Drive carefully!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Oct 2004 08:40 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I'm back, folks!! 

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Drive carefully! 
<<<

Ha! That I did. (Actually, they drive on the left down there -- so even though we WERE going to rent a car, we decided not to die in a fiery wreck and simply availed ourselves of the fine Bahama bus system...) 

Let the thread-catching-up begin! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 144

Posted: 14 Oct 2004 07:35 pm    Post subject: Statues and Mini Busts
By Ant-Man

If any of you are statue/bust collectors, Bowen has some new items in development that are pretty cool... 

Juggernaut statue 
http://www.bowendesigns.com/img/portfolio/9.juggy_2.full.jpg 

Guardian bust 
http://www.bowendesigns.com/img/portfolio/9.vindicatoronbase.full.jpg 

Uatu bust 
http://www.bowendesigns.com/img/portfolio/134.Watcherbust9.full.jpg 

There are also busts of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, among many other COOL things...
_________________
-Brian Cook-

			*	*	*

Thread 145

Posted: 14 Oct 2004 09:57 pm    Post subject: how much is done?
By the Krayon

hey there, i'm new around these parts so maybe this question has already been adressed. 

when looking through Wolverines calendar i saw it ends shortly after Morrison's run began, i haven't thoroughly checked the other characters from New X-Men. 

is there a reason you stopped here, like perhaps you only have calendars worked out up until 2001? i'm really dying to figure out the chronology of the X-books from 2001 to the present. any help with this? 

actually, i have one more question, are there any plans for a single, comprehensive chronology for everything? that's a lot of work, but would be well worth it. 

thanks!  

----------------------------------------------------------------------the-Krayon

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Oct 2004 08:59 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

Welcome to the boards, Krayon! These questions have pretty much already been answered. Check out this thread: 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=594 

Also, I'm unclear about what you mean by "single, comprehensive chronology for everything?" but it's probably something along the lines of this: 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/calendar1.htm 

And finally, let me say that with the amount of updates to the MCP that Russ has been doing lately, (he's on a weekly schedule of updates it seems!) it may not be too long till we're at bit more caught up, (beyond 2001 at least). All of the recent contributions in the Analysis section is helping out a lot!
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 16 Oct 2004 10:13 am 
By Dhall

While we do have some of the Morrison-era chronology worked out (to some extent, there's still some disagreements) we are just starting to work out listings for the 2002 X-Men issues. 

The project has made great strides in closing up the 1996 gap, and Russ is whitling down the 1993 gap. It can take a while for some of the corrections and updates to be reflected in the listings, but considering how many issues, and listings there are, that's only natural. 

Also do keep in mind that everyone is encouraged to submit issue analysis, so if you wish to help get some Morrison-era issues in, or just to comment on the chronology of these issues, you can jump right in. 

Dave H

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Posted: 16 Oct 2004 07:37 pm    
By the Krayon

hey, thanks guys. 

i figured the 2001 ending for MCP was something along those lines. 

and yah, that's definitely what i was looking for in terms of a single chronology. single character chronologies are great, but an all encompassing chronology will definitely make my life easier. 

i'll be going back and submitting some analysises(sp?) when i have the time. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------the-Krayon

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Thread 146

Posted: 23 Oct 2004 03:55 pm    Post subject: Avengers Index question; what do they go up to?
By Enda80

How far did vol.2 of the Avengers Index go up to? 


Official Marvel Index to the Avengers vol. 2 # 1-6 

This monthly six-issue limited series by Murray Ward and friends ran six issues (though I've never been able to find the sixth for some reason). The first issue indexes Avengers (v1) # 1-60 and Annual # 1-2. The second issue indexes Avengers (v1) # 61-122 and Annual # 3-5. The third issue indexes Avengers (v1) # 123-176, Giant-Size Avengers # 1-5 and Avengers Annual # 6-7. The fourth issue indexes Avengers (v1) # 177-230 and Annual # 8-11. The fifth issue indexes Avengers (v1) # 231-285 and Annual # 12-16.

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Posted: 23 Oct 2004 04:24 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Issue 6 covers Avengers 286-333 and Annual 17-20. 


watching: alabama v. tennessee

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Thread 147

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 12:43 pm    Post subject: Avengers #503, or the lack thereof...
By Ant-Man

So, I get into work this morning, and I check the Marvel "Due This Week" list, and I see Avengers #503 on there. 

I didn't realize that it was due out today, but I got a little excited by the thought of the "big revelation". 

So I head over to the shop near my office at lunchtime, and what do you know...it didn't ship this week. 

I generally don't complain too much about late books, but for some reason this ticked me off a little bit.  

There are no comic readers (that I know about) in my office, so griping about it would get me the "you're a dumb@$$" look. 

I just needed to vent... 

The clerk at the comic shop mentioned that the latest issue of Wizard accidently reveals the culprit behind Avengers Disassembled...has anyone seen this? (I'm just wondering if it is clear who the responsible party is...I'm not interested in finding out early)
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 01:09 pm    
By John Simons

Brian- 

Every week as Wednesday approaches I check out: 
http://www.comiclist.com/new.html 
which gives a heads up on what will and won't be out. 

Also, you can look at 
http://www.comiclist.com/upcoming.html 
to not only get a sneak peak at next week's books, but there's also a master list of what's running late and when it will supposedly finally ship. 

As for the Avengers spoiler, it's been mentioned on at least one message board and according to them-- it's exactly who I thought it was since this whole debacle started!
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 01:14 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Ant-Man wrote: 
>>>
So, I get into work this morning, and I check the Marvel "Due This Week" list, and I see Avengers #503 on there. 
<<<

See, your problem is in what source you're using. Marvel puts out those release dates months in advance, based on a general schedule. They rarely go back and revise it on the web site once it's put live. 

Your best bet for what comics are actually shipping in a given week is Charles S. LePage's New Comic Release List. It's far more accurate and includes comic releases from pretty much every publisher.

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 01:29 pm    
By shandrakor

I like to just check the web site of my local comic shop, Zanadu (in Seattle) because then I know whether a book should be right where I can get it...but I guess not every store bothers to keep an updated web page, huh?

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 01:40 pm 
By Ant-Man

My local shop features the new books on the front page of their site. 
It was my fault for not checking that site or any other that I knew would be more reliable than marvel.com
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 03:45 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Diamond's web site has never led me astray, at least for Marvels. 


watching: angel

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 08:17 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

My comic shop dealer told me Avengers #503 ships next week. 

So can anyone confirm what Antman was saying? Does the latest issue of Wizard, (released today) have spoilers in it? Cause I was just about to sit down and read my copy of Wizard, but by Galactus, I'll put it off for a week to keep from reading spoilers! The spoilers in the Marvel Previews was bad enough....
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 08:34 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

According to Diamond's web site, the following Marvel titles ship next week: 

ALPHA FLIGHT 9 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 6 
AVENGERS 503 
AVENGERS EARTH'S MIGHTIEST HEROES 1 
CAPTAIN AMERICA AND THE FALCON 9 
EXILES 54 
GUARDIANS 5 
HULK AND THING HARD KNOCKS 3 
JUBILEE 3 
MARVEL AGE FANTASTIC FOUR 8 
MARVEL AGE SPIDER-MAN 15 
SABRETOOTH 3 
SPIDER-GIRL 80 
SPIDER-MAN DOCTOR OCTOPUS YEAR ONE 4 
SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED 6 
PUNISHER 13 
TOMB OF DRACULA 2 
ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR 12 
ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN 68 
UNCANNY X-MEN 452 
VENOM VS CARNAGE 4 

and, of course, sundry trades. 


watching: boston v. st louis

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 08:43 pm    
By John Simons

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
So can anyone confirm what Antman was saying? Does the latest issue of Wizard, (released today) have spoilers in it?  
<<<

I haven't personally read the Wizard in question, but at http://www.comicboards.com/avengers/ it's pretty much all they're talking about. Unless the entire board is "punking" us en masse, I think the spoilers are for real.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Thread 148

Posted: 25 Oct 2004 07:04 pm    Post subject: Rogue panel
By ADMINISTRATOR

A sneak peek at the Rogue panel that will be going up on the R page this weekend. 


watching: everybody loves raymond

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Posted: 25 Oct 2004 07:09 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Of all the Rogue panels in all the comics in all the world... 

 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 09:17 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

You've convinced me. This action shot is much more representative of Rogue. 


watching: boston v. st louis

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 09:42 pm    
By Kevin W. [DIRECTOR]

I prefer old school Rogue pictures...you got anything from the Jim Lee era? 
_________________
With Great Power comes Great Responsibility....or so they say...

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Thread 149

Posted: 27 Oct 2004 07:33 am    Post subject: DB'ing your Comics
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

Question on databasing your comic book collection... 

I've been keeping track of my comic collection for a number of years using ComicBase. While it was great initially, I'm finding that it no longer keeps track of all the information that I'd like to track for any given issue. I can add fields for inker, colorist, letterer, etc. and I can list reprint information in the notes field, but I can't, for example, list all of the Avengers stories I own in order because some of them are original comics, some are in the Masterworks, some are in Marvel Triple Action, some are in TPBs, etc. (Out of curiosity, I exported everything to an Excel doc to see how I might organize it, and it took around ten hours to go through and list all the issues I had reprinted alongside all the originals.) 

So, my question is: what do you all use for comic tracking software and how (if at all) are you able to track reprints in conjunction with the originals? What are features of your tracking system that you really like, and what are features that you think are missing?

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 08:21 am    
By Ant-Man

I've just been tracking my collection online for the last few years through my website http://www.briancook.us/ 
The negative is that there's no database funtion to it...it's just a listing of comics and the notes that I attach. 

I used to use www.comicsdb.com for tracking comic info, and I always thought that it would be cool to build upon the database that they used, for my own personal use.
_________________
-Brian Cook-

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 01:01 pm    
By John Simons

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
t I can't, for example, list all of the Avengers stories I own in order because some of them are original comics, some are in the Masterworks, some are in Marvel Triple Action, some are in TPBs, etc.  
<<<

Sean, 

Can't you just add a "characters" field? That would require a hell of a lot of data entry, but then you could just enter "Avengers" and it would list all their appearences regardless of what the comics' titles are...
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 01:57 pm    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

I basically have big text files. 

I have one that lists all my comics; one that lists all the issues I have in collected/reprint form; and one that's the reverse of that, that lists all the TPBs and reprints and details what they collect. 

Add to that my Wants List and a list of books I have to sell, and I've got a big folder full of comic-related Word documents. It works for me. 

I've been messing around with Excel, but nothing's solidified there yet. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 27 Oct 2004 03:23 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

John Simons wrote: 
>>>
Can't you just add a "characters" field? That would require a hell of a lot of data entry, but then you could just enter "Avengers" and it would list all their appearences regardless of what the comics' titles are... 
<<<

That's not exactly the problem, though. The problem is that I then get a list that looks like... 

Avengers 134-158, 172-180, 189+ 
Avengers: Celestial Madonna 
Avengers/Defenders War 
Avengers: Ultron Unleashed 
Avengers Visionaries: George Perez 
Avengers: Yesterday Quest 
Marvel Comics Library CDROM 
Marvel Milestone: Avengers 16 
Marvel Super Action 19-36 
Marvel Triple Action 5-15, 17-47 

... instead of what I'd like to get... 

Marvel Comics Library CDROM, reprinting Avengers 1-10 
Marvel Triple Action 5-9, reprinting Avengers 11-15 
Marvel Milestone: Avengers 16, reprinting Avengers 16 
Marvel Triple Action 17-47, reprinting Avengers 17-56 
Avengers: Ultron Unleashed, reprinting Avengers 57 
Marvel Super Action 19-36, reprinting Avengers 58-75 
Avengers/Defenders War, reprinting Avengers 115-118 
Avengers: Celestial Madonna, reprinting Avengers 129-133 
Avengers 134-158 
Avengers Visionaries: George Perez, reprinting Avengers 161-171 
Avengers 172-180 
Avengers Yesterday Quest, reprinting Avengers 182-187 
Avengers 189+ 

The idea is that I can quickly scan through the list and see that I'm missing copies of the stories from 76-114, 120-128, 159-160, and 181 without having to run through and do a lot of cross-checking of all my reprint books and TPBs and such. 

Specifically relating to the MCP, it'd also be nice to do a search on, for example, Amazing Spider-Man #90-99 to see which of those stories I have and where they're located. While ComicBase can do that for individual issues, it's not effecient at doing ranges. 

Like I said, I was able to get what I ultimately wanted, but it took an export out of ComicBase and about ten hours of configuring for a static list. That's fine as of right now, but it's hosed as soon as I get another TPB or something.

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 02:14 pm    
By rhod

Can't you list all your comics in original order and a comments field afterwards stating whether they are original or reprint? 
eg 
Avengers 1- 22 Repr. in Essential Avengers 1 
... 
Avengers 133 Original

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 03:41 pm    
By Starman

I use the database function in MS Works, and the Unofficial Handbook of Marvel Comics Creators. 

The UHBMCC - http://www.maelmill-insi.de/UHBMCC/
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

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Thread 150

Posted: 18 Oct 2004 06:02 pm    Post subject: Who wants a copy of "Reading to the Rescue"?
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Through some interesting circumstances, I now find myself with around 45 copies of the comic I found crumpled on the ground a month ago -- "Target Presents: Reading to the Rescue!" 

And if anyone's interested in one, I'll be glad to mail you a copy, basically free of charge -- all you'll pay is packing and postage. No profit margin for me. 

25 of these books are slightly water-damaged and/or folded, but 20 of them are in NM condition. I don't forsee a lot of demand for this book -- I doubt 20 people will respond, to be honest -- so I'm also looking for suggestions for charitable organizations for children that I can donate the non-NM copies to. 

The book is aimed at promoting reading at the 4th-grade level -- I had thought to donate them to my local library or grade school, but if anyone has a better idea, I'd love to hear it. 

Don't PM me on this one, folks -- if you'd like a copy or have a charity suggestion, please reply to this thread. 

Thanks! 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 18 Oct 2004 09:56 pm    
By SKleefeld [DIRECTOR]

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Through some interesting circumstances, I now find myself with around 45 copies of the comic I found crumpled on the ground a month ago -- "Target Presents: Reading to the Rescue!" 

And if anyone's interested in one, I'll be glad to mail you a copy, basically free of charge -- all you'll pay is packing and postage. No profit margin for me. 
<<<

Well, I suppose I wouldn't mind one out of curiosity. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
25 of these books are slightly water-damaged and/or folded, but 20 of them are in NM condition. I don't forsee a lot of demand for this book -- I doubt 20 people will respond, to be honest -- so I'm also looking for suggestions for charitable organizations for children that I can donate the non-NM copies to. 

The book is aimed at promoting reading at the 4th-grade level -- I had thought to donate them to my local library or grade school, but if anyone has a better idea, I'd love to hear it. 

Don't PM me on this one, folks -- if you'd like a copy or have a charity suggestion, please reply to this thread. 
<<< 

Dude! It's late October! Give them out for Halloween! 

Seriously. I've been giving out comics for Halloween for several years now, and the kids absolutely love it. I actually have kids asking about them as soon as I open the door. "Are you the guy that gives out comics?!?"

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 12:21 am    
By John Simons

There's at least one Avenger in there, right? (Thor, do I recall?) If so, I wouldn't mind a copy, for the sake of completeness... 

Now if only someone could come across a box of those Charleston Chew giveaway comics from the 90's...
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 06:52 am    
By Andy Holcombe

I'd like one please. On a smilar note, I have a box of Daredevil Vs. Vapora books if anyone would like a copy.

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Posted: 19 Oct 2004 11:33 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

John: yes, there are two Avengers in this book -- Thor and Cap. (And Spidey, if you count him as a New Avenger.) 

Sean: Halloween giveaways is a GREAT idea, except for one odd thing -- I live in my town's main square, in an apartment over some shops. And this area of town, being mainly businesses, does this weird thing where kids CAN trick-or-treat, IF the businesses put a balloon out -- but it's a scheduled thing on Friday the 29th from 3-4:30pm. At which time I'll be at work, in a different town entirely. On Halloween itself, the kids know not to come to my area of town. 

Sigh. Still, Halloween's on a Sunday this year -- maybe I could drive up to my mother's house and hand 'em out there? It's a good thought, Sean -- I'll look into it. Thanks! 


Anyone else want a copy of this fine, fine book?  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 24 Oct 2004 03:15 am    
By Starman

I'd like one, but maybe it would be too expensive to send one all the way to Sweden... 
_________________
[Last line from The Hulk (2003)] 
Bruce Banner: You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

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Posted: 24 Oct 2004 07:48 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Depends how fast you want it to get there ... including fifty cents for the envelope: 

Surface mail (4-6 weeks) would cost $4.30 (around 30.84 Kronor, according to xe.com) 
and Airmail (4-7 days) would cost $6.90 (around 49.48 Kronor). 

That's not so bad, I guess. Of course, if you try to Paypal it to me, Paypal will zap me with international conversion surcharges and I won't get the full amount ... hmm. 

Send me an e-mail at jephyork@yahoo.com and we'll talk. 

Anyone else want a copy? Hurry hurry, they're going out the door for Halloween... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 28 Oct 2004 11:20 pm    
By Antonio Gavino

Quote: 
>>>
Through some interesting circumstances, I now find myself with around 45 copies of the comic I found crumpled on the ground a month ago -- "Target Presents: Reading to the Rescue!" 

And if anyone's interested in one, I'll be glad to mail you a copy, basically free of charge -- all you'll pay is packing and postage. No profit margin for me.  
<<<

Hope I'm not too late to ask for a copy. Where do I send the money, though? 
Speaking of giveaway comics did anybody get the Sports Illustrated Ryder Cup Preview comic, featuring Cap, Spidey, Thor, Iron Man and Hulk? It was just 5 pages but it could be canon since there's nothing to say otherwise. I only have the scans that were posted online. 
So under what circumstances did you end up with 45 copies?

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Posted: 29 Oct 2004 07:19 am    
By jephyork [DIRECTOR]

Nope -- not too late to grab a copy. Shoot me an e-mail (my address is two posts up) and we'll talk. 

Antonio Gavio wrote: 
>>>
So under what circumstances did you end up with 45 copies? 
<<<

Interesting circumstances indeed.  

-Jeph!

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